Rock Waterman (blogger at Pure Mormonism) is a prominent Mormon blogger who maintains belief in all of the fundamental LDS Church truth claims (e.g., God, Jesus, Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon). His beliefs are similar to those of Denver Snuffer, in that he believes that the modern, corporate LDS Church is failing to follow many of the teachings of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, and consequently has strayed from Christ’s and Joseph Smith’s core teachings.
In Part 1, we discuss Rock Waterman’s notice that he will be facing an LDS disciplinary council for apostasy on Wednesday evening June 3, 2015 at 7:30p.m. at the stake center at 2745 Eastern Ave. Sacramento, CA 95821.
In Part 2, Rock and his wife Connie retell the experience of his disciplinary council, which resulted in his excommunication from the LDS (Mormon) Church for blogging about his beliefs and differences with LDS Church policies.
Interestingly, Rock has been told by his church leaders to stop blogging at his blog (Pure Mormonism), but these same leaders have acknowledged that they have not spent much time actually reading his writings, have been instructed by an LDS area authority to hold a disciplinary council on Rock, but have been unwilling to tell Rock which of his teachings or statements are problematic.
Some of Rock’s most popular blog posts are included below:
- Are we paying too much tithing?
- Go ahead and skip that temple wedding
- How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ
- Who is Changing Mormon Doctrine?
Rock’s Disciplinary Council Letter:
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Rock Waterman
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction to Rock Waterman's Situation
Rock Waterman [00:00:00] I'm ready.
John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today, the date is May 27, 2015, and we received some interesting news today. Some would say it's disturbing news. Others might say it's exciting news. But a former Mormon Stories podcast guest, his name is Alan Rockwaterman, has been informed of a disciplinary council to be held on Wednesday evening, June 3rd, in Sacramento, California. So, Alan Rockwaterman, welcome back to Mormon Stories.
Rock Waterman [00:00:41] Thank you, John. Glad to be here again.
John Dehlin [00:00:44] Yeah. So I guess we should say that for those who haven't listened to your. To my interview with you, that you have a blog called Pure Mormonism. People could find it, I'm sure, just by Googling Pure Mormonism. But you probably fit a bit of a different category than, let's just say me or Carson or Marisa Calderwood, in that my understanding is you believe that Joseph Smith saw God, you believe that Joseph Smith restored God's church, and you believe that there were golden plates and that Angel Moroni delivered those plates to Joseph Smith. So you believe in all the basic tenets of, you know, the traditional LDS restoration, Is that right?
Rock Waterman [00:01:34] Yes, I believe all the core fundamentals. I believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, that it is what it claims to be, and that Joseph Smith received revelations from Jesus Christ, and those revelations should be guiding the church today.
John Dehlin [00:01:53] Okay, so you believe all those things and, you know, listeners can go back and listen to our former interview, but tell us, you know, what your interactions have been with your church leaders to date and why you think you might be facing a disciplinary council.
Rock Waterman [00:02:11] I guess more than a year ago, I was called in by my bishop. I don't actively attend church anymore. Connie and I stopped attending when she got sick, and I popped in once or twice a month. And the bishop was always happy to see me. But one time he called one day. He called me in and said that, told me he had been the stake president, had instructed him that an Area 70 had some concerns about my blog and that I was given an ultimatum and that the bishop was tasked with conveying that ultimatum to me. The ultimatum was in three parts. I could either stop blogging or I could resign from the church voluntarily. And when he said that, I said, you got to be kidding me. They never asked people to resign. He said, I know, I know. I'm just delivering the message. And he said, but if. Then if you. I said, well, I'm not going to volunteer. I'm not going to stop blogging. And I'm not going to resign. So he said, well, then the next option is a disciplinary hearing.
John Dehlin [00:03:11] Do we know who the area authority was?
Rock Waterman [00:03:13] Oh, my. His name was Smith. And then when I did meet with the stake president, he gave me the name of another, and I plum forgot it was.
John Dehlin [00:03:21] It was Clayton Christensen involved. Do you know? I'm sorry, L. Whitney Clayton.
Rock Waterman [00:03:26] L. Whitney Clayton. Not my. I don't know anything more than that. In fact, the bishop seemed to be very much in the dark. He admitted to not reading much of my blog. He'd read a few paragraphs of. Of my called Go ahead and skip that Temple wedding, in which I showed that the doctrine for weddings is to be married publicly, but that ceilings were intended to be a separate priesthood ordinance. He only read a few of it, and he got the impression that I advocated state weddings, which I did not. And so that's as far as he got. And he admitted that. He says, look, I don't have time to read your blog again. He continued to stress that he was just the messenger.
John Dehlin [00:04:05] So real quick, L. Whitney Clayton was implicated or was not.
Rock Waterman [00:04:08] No, no, no. He gave me the name Smith. He didn't know the fellow's first name. Area 70 for this area in Sacramento.
John Dehlin [00:04:16] Okay, okay. All right. So tell us really quickly, just really briefly, some of the main posts that you think may have gotten you into trouble.
Rock Waterman [00:04:24] What they're basically saying, I actually have no idea because I'm very careful and scrupulous in being precise in my doctrine. So. And I have an open invitation, and I said this to the bishop, look, if you found something in my blog that you found incorrect or undoctrinal, let me know. I'll go in and change it again. He said he wasn't familiar enough with my blog. I asked him at that meeting, I said, so what's the next step? He says, well, the stake president will call you in. Well, that never happened for months. And I think it was around last May, this time of year, and I believe it was May 28. State President called me. It was more or less a formality. In the meantime, the New York Times had done a piece, they'd done some pieces on you and Kate Dillon in which they accused you of trying to change the doctrine. So my response to the. To the reporter was, we're not, you know, it was a piece that discussed me and several others. I said, we're not trying to change the doctrine. We're just trying to get the church to obey the doctrine it already has. And that's. That seemed to be where things laid. And then when the stake president called me in several months later, we sat down and we talked for two hours. And he understood. By the time we got done, he understood where I was coming from. I don't think he got me because I think both he and the bishop have a mindset. And. Well, the question the bishop asked me directly was, rock, why do you want to be a member of the church? And the inference from that question was that if you don't feel you need to follow the brethren, why would you want to be in the church? And I told him that the church isn't theirs. The church doesn't belong to the men at the top. It's not owned by any man or group of men who can control the brand. I told him that. I quoted DC 1067 that says, where the Lord himself is defining his church as all who repent and come unto me the same as my church, he says. So I said, I'm a member of a church. I repented, I come unto him, I continue to repent, and I believe in all the tenets of the restoration. So what's the problem? And this is kind of where we were with the stake president by the time the meeting ended. Like I said, he understood that I had a firm, resolute faith. But he didn't get. He didn't seem to get why I would want to remain a member of the church, since I didn't feel like it was necessary to follow the counsel of men who I have not seen produce any revelations from God. Now, I don't denigrate them. I don't denigrate their counsel when their counsel is consistent with Scriptures. But I don't see any reason to follow men. Well, let me put it this way, John. And this is what I told President Hanson. I said, the minute that Thomas Monson gets up on the stand and says, I have a message from the Lord that he wishes me to convey to you, I. I'll perk right up. I'll be listening. That's what I'm waiting for. But I haven't seen that happen. Stories and counsel and interesting stories about losing $5 in your pair of pants and sending it to laundry. And when the pants come back, that $5 is still there because he prayed so hard for it. Those are nice stories, but they're not what we expect from a prophet, seer and revelator. So if I'm to sustain men as prophets, seers and revelators, I expect to see a little bit of evidence that those gifts Joseph Smith had that gift.
John Dehlin [00:08:01] Okay.
Rock Waterman [00:08:02] Nobody today seems to follow in his footsteps, although they claim the exact same authority.
John Dehlin [00:08:08] Okay, so I need to get the timeline right. So your first meeting with your bishop was around what month and year it would have been?
Rock Waterman [00:08:17] I think 2013. Near the end. About November, I think.
John Dehlin [00:08:22] November of 2013.
Rock Waterman [00:08:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:08:26] Yeah, because that was your bishop's interview,
Rock Waterman [00:08:29] I'm guessing because the stake president came May of 2014.
John Dehlin [00:08:34] So May of 2014 was your first stake president interview?
Rock Waterman [00:08:38] Yes, first and only. Now, in neither of these interviews did they tell me that I was doing something wrong. I asked, what. What's the problem?
John Dehlin [00:08:48] Okay, so it's been a year. It's been a year since you've spoken to your stake president? Yes. Okay. And did your stake president tell you anything specifically that you've done wrong in terms of apostasy? Did he mention anything specifically?
Rock Waterman [00:09:05] Both he and the bishop had the same thing to say. They said, I'm concerned that you're leading people out of the church.
John Dehlin [00:09:10] Did he say with what teachings exactly?
Rock Waterman [00:09:15] No, that's what I asked. And I said what I'm hearing from people. At the time. I was getting an average of three emails a week from people who were thanking me for helping them to stay in the church. They were being now able to reconcile that there was a difference between the structural church as an institution and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And they could live. They found they could embrace the gospel without necessarily having to look to the church for guidance when the church isn't offering any new guidance. So there's a. There are tens of thousands of people out there now, John, who recognize that they can be good Mormons. And it isn't necessary to tune into conference or to follow the counsel of men who are not necessarily speaking in the voice of the Lord.
John Dehlin [00:10:10] Okay, so again, the question is, did they give you any specific examples of things that you've taught that have led people out of the church?
Rock Waterman [00:10:21] No. I asked for them. They both seem to have a very nebulous idea of what my blog was about. They understood it to be anti Mormon. Somehow, I couldn't pin them down on it.
John Dehlin [00:10:31] Okay, did your stake president try and give you any counsel, any advice? Did he offer to meet with you regularly?
Rock Waterman [00:10:38] No. When the interview was over, you know, we stood up, and two hours later, I said, so what's next? Is there going to be disciplinary council? And he said, well, I'm not in any hurry to excommunicate anybody. And that was pretty much where it sat. And that's where it's been for. If I'm right, on my timeline, that was last May. It was either last March or May. Then there hasn't been anything since. Now, in the meantime, missionaries have stopped by by accident and had one. We've had wonderful chats with them, and it looked to them like it's going to be great, but they never returned.
John Dehlin [00:11:14] So no attempts by your bishop or stake president to work with you, to counsel with you, to. To help you with any struggles or to give you examples of where you're in error to help write your instruction.
Rock Waterman [00:11:27] And I asked repeatedly, I said, look, if you can find someplace where I'm in error, point it out, I'll go in and change it, because I don't wish to be teaching false doctrine.
John Dehlin [00:11:36] Okay.
Rock Waterman [00:11:37] I think what it comes down to is somebody's uncomfortable with my blog for reasons that nobody can seem to answer, but nobody can point out what it is that. That they find offensive. And here I'm about to end disciplinary court with no. I. No earthly idea what I've done.
John Dehlin [00:11:55] Yeah, that. That seems not very fair. Okay, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna just list a few of. A few of the articles that you've written, and I need you to be really brief because we only have about 10 or 15 minutes. I want to give our listeners a sense for some of the things you've written. So in the. In the post, Are we paying too much tithing? What's your main point there?
Tithing, Word of Wisdom, and Church Corporatism
Rock Waterman [00:12:20] My main point is to go back to the law of tithing as issued by the Lord and strip away all the cultural things we piled on.
John Dehlin [00:12:29] And what is that?
Rock Waterman [00:12:30] For one thing, the blessings of tithing. Another thing is Malachi was not talking. Malachi was not rebuking the members for not paying their tithes. Malachi was. Was rebuking the priests for embezzling the tithes and using them for purposes other than what they were meant for.
John Dehlin [00:12:49] So what are you suggesting that members might do in terms of their tithing?
Rock Waterman [00:12:53] Well, pay a proper tithe. A proper tithe is 10% of one's interest. And that means after increase. Well, increase is sometimes the word used, but interest is the word the Lord uses. It's synonymous with increase, which means what one has left over after basic needs are met. So not 10% off the top of one's total wages.
John Dehlin [00:13:23] Okay.
Rock Waterman [00:13:24] It's not gross income.
John Dehlin [00:13:25] And then you have evidence historically to show that that's the way it was done in the past.
Rock Waterman [00:13:30] Absolutely. Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:13:31] So, okay, so do you have an idea? When we started Doing it on net or gross income.
Rock Waterman [00:13:36] Well, Orson Pratt and James Talmadge both taught that if a person didn't have a surplus, then they weren't required. This started in about the mid 20th century where we started being encouraged to pay 10% of our gross.
John Dehlin [00:13:51] Okay, so what are you recommending members do in terms of skipping the temple wedding? What are you basically recommending that people?
Rock Waterman [00:13:57] Well, Joseph Smith said the only doctrine we have in this church, and it was codified in the Doctrine and Covenants, the old section 101, was that all marriages would take place in a public place. And then a ceiling was something that was introduced later by Brigham Young. And that was done in secret, I think, mostly because his ceilings were against the law. They involved bigamy. But a wedding is one thing. A ceiling is something else.
John Dehlin [00:14:27] So you're recommending that members skip their weddings?
Rock Waterman [00:14:30] Yeah, yeah, I said no, no, get a wedding. Have the bishop marry you in church, and then go into the temple and have that wedding sealed.
John Dehlin [00:14:37] Even if you have to wait a year to do that?
Rock Waterman [00:14:39] Well, you shouldn't have to, but that's. That's the policy.
John Dehlin [00:14:42] What are you basically saying about how corporatism has undermined and subverted the church? What's your main point there?
Rock Waterman [00:14:48] Well, we've. In 1923, Heber J. Grant converted the Church of Jesus Christ into a corporation under the laws of the United States. And he did that so that. So that the leaders could bypass the commandment, a very strict commandment the Lord gave that all monies are to be. No monies are to be taken from the treasury except by common consent of the members. So now today we have. So it's a very simple one page document. It basically, it accomplished two things. It decided that the president of the church could spend the money in whatever way he wanted without having to run it past the members for a sustaining vote. And secondly, it. It decided that the president of the quorum of the 12 would always be the succeeding president so that there would be an even. None of that was ever dictated by the Lord. There's no revelation showing that the president of the Elders Quorum becomes the new prophet, seer and revelator
John Dehlin [00:15:51] of the quorum of the 12.
Rock Waterman [00:15:54] Right. Did I say that?
John Dehlin [00:15:55] I think you said elders Quorum.
Rock Waterman [00:15:56] Oh, yeah, sorry. But God doesn't work like that. God ordains his prophecy and whatever. What we do now is we have an autumn automatic president based on the corporate charter, which is a government charter, basically, that subverted Jesus Christ under government's will under the Will of the government.
John Dehlin [00:16:16] Okay, so you're not crazy about the corporation of the president, basically.
Rock Waterman [00:16:21] No. Corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's a legal entity that controls the money.
John Dehlin [00:16:30] Okay. And you're not loving that. Okay, so you mentioned something about beer. What's your position on beer? Just briefly.
Rock Waterman [00:16:41] The Saints, the word of wisdom, never prohibited beer. I think it's verse 17 that promotes the drinking of mild barley drinks, which is what beer always was in those days. Everyone drank beer and they continued to. There's this very, very big difference between distilled spirits, which is alcohol, wine, not wine, what we call liquor, vodka, whiskey, those things. And there's the fermented drinks, which have a very low alcohol content, but that are actually healthy. Now, I wrote a piece called Too Bad I Don't Like Beer. Because Too Bad I don't like beer. I'd drink it if I could handle it, but I don't like it. Don't like wine, either.
John Dehlin [00:17:18] Okay. Now, some people associate you with Denver Snuffer, who was excommunicated, I'm going to say, back in 2013, fall of 2013. It seems like that's around the same time you were notified. So, Deborah Snuffer, you know, his claim to have met Jesus Christ personally through visitation, and then he's published several books where he encourages others to have their own personal relationship with Jesus. And he's got quite a following, probably in the tens of thousands, possibly by now, of people. You know, we won't say they're followers of him necessarily, but they certainly want to have their personal relationship with Jesus. And they view the gospel more in a fundamentalist way, focusing more on the Book of Mormon, sort of Kirtland era of the church versus kind of what came later. So you've been associated with Denver. Just talk really briefly about to what extent you are or are not associated and what that association means to you.
Rock Waterman [00:18:24] Well, Denver and I have become friends, but I have only read one of his books, and I'm only hearing some of these other things. So I'm not, you know, I can't speak for what he's written or what he knows. But yes, there is a movement. You can call us the Remnant. You can call us uncorrelated Mormons. It's a huge movement of tens of thousands of Saints who are realizing that there's something a little askew about the church today and we need to go back to scriptures. All I can tell you about Denver Snuffer is the only thing he teaches is go back to the Scriptures, look at the Scriptures and see what they tell us. You know, it would be great if the leaders were providing actual revelations, in which case I'd listen to them, as I said before. But in the absence of revelation, all we can do is follow the word of God.
John Dehlin [00:19:14] Now, some would say when the brethren lower the mission age, that's a revelation. When the brethren tell us, don't look at pornography, that's a revelation.
Rock Waterman [00:19:23] Well, you know, it would be nice to see the revelation. Joseph Smith didn't go to the people and say, I had a revelation. So blah, blah, blah. He published the revelation. He showed them the revelation. It's not enough. I don't know why the leaders today think that they can just tell us their opinion and that we're intended. We're expected to assume that they had a meeting with Jesus Christ and he told them to convey this message. It's never in his voice. I wrote a piece that I think is very, very important. It's called Not Quite the Same. And that explains how a revelation is supposed to be done. I have nothing against the counsel these men teach, but we've got to get away from the idea that they're getting it from God unless they tell us that they do. It has to be thus saith the Lord type of conveyance.
John Dehlin [00:20:18] Real quick. In what ways does the Book of Mormon condemn the modern church?
Rock Waterman [00:20:22] Oh, my gosh. Mormon Ate and Moroni just tell us concepts. We don't know the Scriptures, okay?
John Dehlin [00:20:28] I mean, we don't have them all memorized.
Rock Waterman [00:20:30] I kind of like what Moroni said. He said to the people who are reading it today, he said, I can see you even though you can't see me. And he says, why do you pollute the holy Church of God? He's agonizing about how we're robbing from the poor and we're building all these fine buildings and great things and the poor suffering. And a few years ago, I would have not equated that with what's going on now. But the leaders today are literally robbing the poor. When they tell the poor, you pay us first and then you can feed your children, because the General Authority's children don't have to worry about, you know, they are living quite high on the hog. They've got vacation homes as well as their regular homes paid for by the church. They have unlimited credit cards. They have chauffeured cars available whenever they want. They're living high on the Hog. And they're telling.
John Dehlin [00:21:26] What about their salaries?
Rock Waterman [00:21:27] The salaries. We don't know what they are, but it's been estimated it's 250 to 500,000 a year apiece, along with all the perks. But we don't know. And that's just the problem. They don't tell us. And they're commanded by Jesus to have open books. We knew where all the money was going from. We knew how much tithing came in and how much went out and where it went up until 1958. After that, N. Eldon Tanner came in and became the de facto CEO of the church. And he said, we're not going to tell anybody where it goes anymore. It's too embarrassing.
John Dehlin [00:21:59] Okay, so things like the church collecting too much money of fine apparel. Any other just quick bulleted instances where the Book of Mormon condemns, you know, priestcrafts, I imagine priestcraft is the big one.
Rock Waterman [00:22:15] Priestcraft is the big one. Because here we have bishops and stake presidents voluntarily giving of their time. And yet the leaders at the. And we boast about how we have an unpaid clergy when at the top that clergy is very well paid. I wouldn't have any problem with a member of the quorum of the 12 or the First Presidency or the 70s living at a median income, maybe something like $40,000 a year, and the people supporting that. But this is priestcraft. They're getting paid to hold these lofty positions. They sit in the chief seats of the synagogue, as Mark said, in these very cushy seats, they've built this great and spacious building. There's something very wrong. And this is the thing. This is the problem. This is where I come in. As people tell me, I don't care for that. And people tell me that people who've had trouble with that have learned that they can reconcile. They don't have to throw it all away. They don't have to throw out the gospel. They don't have to throw out the entire religion. All they have to do is recognize that these men who are taking their money are irrelevant as far as the church goes, as far as the religion goes. We can be perfectly good Mormons and completely ignore the leaders at the top until they speak for God. If God deigns to send a message through them, let's pay attention. But in the meantime, what do we care about their opinion? They're not any better than any other television preacher who has a message. Not do pornography, love your wives, do the right thing, dress modestly, whatever they want to say. But unless they're speaking if they're not speaking for God, we need to recognize the difference. When they're speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost, and when they're not,
John Dehlin [00:24:06] do you claim to have seen Jesus or God?
Rock Waterman [00:24:08] No. No.
Why Remain a Member and Disciplinary Council Preparation
John Dehlin [00:24:09] Okay, so why do you want to remain a member of the Church, and why or why not?
Rock Waterman [00:24:16] Well, I'm a member of the Church. No matter what they do, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. Because in d and c, 1067, Jesus defined the Church. All who repent and come unto me. And interestingly enough, in the next verse, he says, anybody who defines this in any other way, the same is not of my church and not of me. Now, my bishop and stake president, who seem to think that the Church consists of the headquarters in Salt Lake City, to me, that Scripture is telling them, hey, you know, you're way off base. The Church is the people. It's the body of Christ. You don't answer to anybody.
John Dehlin [00:24:51] But Joseph Smith excommunicated people quite frequently. As I understand it.
Rock Waterman [00:24:54] He excommunicated them for transgressions. I'm still waiting to find out what my transgression is. If I committed adultery, bring it on the table. You know, my bishop, he was at the door yesterday with his executive secretary, and he said, you know, I can't tell you anything. It'll be covered at the hearing, which I think was a little close. I mean, we got one week. I was given this last night. A week from today, I'm supposed to be able to defend myself. Fortunately, I wrote the book on this. I wrote a book called what to Expect when youn're Excommunicated. And so I know a little bit about. About what to expect. I've got this through research. Plus, I was excommunicated myself for a transgression. What, 37 years ago. It was a sexual transgression. What I know today, I wouldn't have confessed. I got involved with a girl, we broke up. We felt bad about it. We got together, we had a salad, and we talked about it. And we both decided, you know what? We both apologized to each other, and we said, you know, I go to our bishops. So we went to our respective bishops. That's the mistake we made. Because what we had done already, we had already confessed to the Lord. We confessed to each other. And according to Scripture, that's what's required. There is nothing in Scripture requiring us to confess to a bishop anyway.
John Dehlin [00:26:14] Okay, so do you have a strategy or a plan for next. Is it Wednesday night?
Rock Waterman [00:26:21] Yes, Wednesday Night.
John Dehlin [00:26:22] Do you have a plan?
Rock Waterman [00:26:23] Well, they got this letter here, and it says that you were reported to have participated in conduct and become a member of the church. I want to know what that is. And when I find out what that is, then I'll defend myself from it. Now, normally in a court of law, I'd be able to make motions and continuances, but I'd like to hear what they say. And if I actually have participated in conduct on becoming a member of the church, I guess I'll have to stop it, won't I?
John Dehlin [00:26:48] What's tricky for this situation is that it seems like all you're doing is quoting scripture and church history and precedent, and so it's going to be tough for them to argue that you're an apostasy. Right?
Rock Waterman [00:27:00] Well, I think from what I've heard from others, Adrian Larsen and Will Carter and others who have been excommunicated for nothing, they don't want to hear it. In fact, these guys really weren't told what they were being excommunicated. Will Carter was still chasing down his stake president weeks afterwards, asking, what. What's the reason?
John Dehlin [00:27:22] Are these Denver Snuffer? Sort of.
Rock Waterman [00:27:24] Well, I wouldn't call them Snuffer. Foller. I think they probably read one or two of his books. I don't know. But what they are. And we need to get away from this idea that Denver Snuffer is some great guru. He doesn't see himself that way. He says anybody who follows him is a fool. I say the same thing about me. Anybody who looks to me for answers. Come on, man. I'm just a dumb, dorky ex DJ and motel manager. What do I know?
John Dehlin [00:27:49] Okay, so do you want people to show up and support you? Do you care?
Rock Waterman [00:27:54] That'd be great. Yeah. I actually have one fellow from Davis, former Bishop High Council member. And who's. Who's going to come as a character witness. I could use. You know what I think would be good? Any kind of statements from people who. Who have found my blog helpful in helping them become stronger in the faith. That doesn't necessarily.
John Dehlin [00:28:13] How do they send those to you?
Rock Waterman [00:28:15] Rockwatermanmail.com okay, and you were going to
John Dehlin [00:28:20] say that it doesn't matter whether they're active in the church or not. But you're talking about faith.
Rock Waterman [00:28:24] No, because active in the church today essentially means showing up for meetings where there is no spirit of God, where we're not edified. There's a lot of people who just are not finding that beneficial anymore. So active in attendance is one thing. Devout in the faith is another. I consider myself very devout and very orthodox. Extremely orthodox. I think that's what bothers them. I'm so orthodox that I'm making certain people who are not obeying the commandments of God a little uneasy.
John Dehlin [00:28:54] Okay, so do you feel like the church is just an apostasy or the church has gone astray?
Rock Waterman [00:28:59] Well, once again, by the church, if you mean the corporate church. Yeah, the corporate church. Yeah. The corporate church is on its own path, and it seems to be taking a trajectory that is moving away from Christ at the same time that they're saying, follow us and we'll lead you to Christ. Well, every time they disobey a commandment of Christ, I don't think it's the. I don't think following them is the best idea.
John Dehlin [00:29:23] Okay. What do you think about all these excommunications? The Calderwoods, me, Kate? Any reaction to that?
Rock Waterman [00:29:29] Well, you know, Kate, Interesting. They were able to successfully paint Kate Kelly as trying to. Trying to change the doctrine. And if you look at the mission statement there on the Ordained women page, you see that she's saying, we're asking the leaders of the church to take this issue to the Lord and get an answer instead of taking it to the Lord, which is, I think, the prophet's job. If I'm not mistaken, that's the prophet's job. You got a question? Let's take it to the Lord and get an answer. No, they just dismissed her and got rid of her and said she's trying to run the church for herself. In your case, I don't know what to think about you, John, because my understanding is that you're not really a believer in the restoration and you have your doubts about the authenticity of Jesus Christ. So, you know, it's anybody's guess what. They probably got rid of you because of your voice. And I gotta say, I am very grateful that you have provided a forum for all kinds of voices in Mormonism, pro and con, so people can hear and they can decide for themselves what to follow. So I think I'm. So you asked what the difference is with all these other. A lot of other excommunications going on now for people who are simply saying, you know, well, they're not keen on sustaining the brethren. Look, let me say this right. The last vote at conference, most of these same men were in office. They had been given an opportunity to show evidence that they have the gifts of prophets, seers and revelators. So now comes the vote. Do you sustain them as prophets, seers and revelators? Well, the intelligent person would say, well, we gave them a chance and they never showed us that they have those gifts. So, no, I wouldn't sustain a man as a prophet, seer in revelator if I hadn't. If he's had years and years and years to demonstrate that he has the gifts. It's not enough to give a guy a title and say, now he's a prophet. He's got to prophesy, he's got to translate something. He's got to reveal something from the Lord.
John Dehlin [00:31:36] So why do you think the Lord's gone silent?
Rock Waterman [00:31:40] Well, President Benson told us the reason. He says back in 1833, the Lord said the church is under condemnation because we're not reading the Book of Mormon and abiding by its precepts. I will read something in the Book of Mormon like the doctrine of grace, and then I'll go to church and learn that we don't believe in it. So, of course, the corporate church or our manuals, the people who are teaching us, the people from where all of this knowledge is disseminated, are teaching something different from what we find in the Book of Mormon. It's no wonder the Lord said, I'm done with you. You know what it means to be condemned is it means you're unfit.
John Dehlin [00:32:19] The only problem I have with that is that if this is supposed to be the true church and he stopped communicating with us back in the 1830s, then he's not communicating with anybody and he doesn't have a church is basically what your argument boils down to.
Rock Waterman [00:32:32] The church is made up of individuals. We got to get away from this idea that there needs to be a structured church. The church existed before Joseph Smith even registered it in New York. And basically what he did there was he just posted it. The same you would as a birth announcement or a wedding announcement.
John Dehlin [00:32:48] But, Barack, the number of believers in Joseph Smith that follow kind of your brand of Mormonism can't number more than the tens of thousands. And so God's church, you know, really exists in the minds of 10 to
Rock Waterman [00:33:04] 20, 30,000 fringe Mormons left behind the Book of Mormon, and he left behind those revelations. The last person to have the actual calling of prophet, seer and revelator was Hyrum Smith. He died before his brother. We have to get away from this idea that the authority exists somewhere on earth. The Lord's spirit, the Lord's work has been established. We don't have to have people in charge of it, to live it.
John Dehlin [00:33:33] I'm just saying the number of people that sort of ascribed to your kind of version of Mormonism that still believe in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith is in the tens of thousands. And that's a really. That's a really small group for.
Rock Waterman [00:33:49] Well, I'd say it's in the millions. Those, those, those who are vocal, maybe in the tens of thousands. But. But the church claims 15 million members of record, and only four and a half million go to church once every three months.
John Dehlin [00:34:01] But I'm just saying. I'm just saying, even if it's a million and if you take a million out of 6 billion, that's a really small number of people.
Rock Waterman [00:34:08] Yeah, well, I think the Lord has said, I'm not going to work through this organization anymore. But he hasn't abandoned his children. He hasn't walked away from the planet. So what we get to do is we get to try and do his will. It's very simple. God's will is do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If we lived the Golden Rule, we wouldn't need any other doctrines.
John Dehlin [00:34:30] So does his church transcend Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon? And does it include people who don't even know Joseph Smith's name?
Rock Waterman [00:34:39] Sure, sure. Again, the restoration was an attempt, maybe a failed one, I don't know, an attempt to restore certain truths onto the earth. If we don't read about them in the Book of Mormon, we're not going to get them, we're not going to live them. But they're there. They exist. We can read them, we can apply. We can live by their precepts as the Lord told us.
Final Thoughts Before the Disciplinary Council
John Dehlin [00:35:06] All right, so any final thoughts you want to leave with our listeners sort of a week before your disciplinary council?
Rock Waterman [00:35:13] Yeah, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see. I really am interested in finding out what the grounds are, because I've asked repeatedly, if you have a problem, tell me what it is. I'll go back in. I run a blog. I can go back in and I can change it anytime I want to. If there's something in error, I can make a correction. So it'll be fun to see. It's an opportunity. A hearing like this is an opportunity to clear the air and correct misconceptions and to witness for Christ. So, you know, this is not a sad thing where, oh, no, they're kicking me out of the church. All they can do is kick me out of the corporate church, which I don't belong to. Anyway, whatever they do isn't going to change. You know, I think they, I know that they like to think that they've taken away my powers or my celestial salvation and they've cut me off from the Lord. But of course that's nonsense. They don't have the power to do that. The minute they try stuff like that, they're violating DNC121 and that tells us their power is gone. So basically I might be the only one in the room that actually has the priesthood by the time it's over.
John Dehlin [00:36:22] Okay. All right, so you'll let us know kind of what the charges are and
Rock Waterman [00:36:28] yeah, I'd like to have a, like to have a follow up interview and discuss what happened.
John Dehlin [00:36:34] All right, Rock, well, we wish you well. I've been through excommunication. It's just no fun even if you say you're okay with the outcome, even
Rock Waterman [00:36:44] if you say you don't. Careful experience. Well, of course. Now see, you and I have a different outlook, but from my point of view, a chance to witness for Christ. Who wouldn't want that? You know, basically I'm saying I'm a believer. So what do you want? What else do you want from me?
John Dehlin [00:36:58] All right, Rock, well, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. Good luck and we look forward to bringing you back on to talk more.
Rock Waterman [00:37:04] Thanks, John. I love you. I love being here.
John Dehlin [00:37:05] Love you too. Tell the listeners the date, time and location again.
Rock Waterman [00:37:08] June 3, the 2745 Eastern Avenue in Sacramento. If you can be there for support especially and once again, if you have a story of your own, you can be just a short paragraph that, that my blog might have assisted you in, in your journey. Then I'm, I think that'll help.
John Dehlin [00:37:29] Send it, send it as an email to rockwatermanmail.com because by the way, you
Rock Waterman [00:37:33] might know this for yourself, John. Most of the men in that room will have had no idea of anything about you. They're just going to hear it for the first time. And so let's get the cards out on the table and find out what you know. Let's find out what Rock Waterman believes
John Dehlin [00:37:47] and there's a decent chance they'll change the date because they did that with me and with Carson and I know they did.
Rock Waterman [00:37:53] Yeah. So we'll keep you posted on any changes. I think they want to get me swept under the rug as quickly as possible.
John Dehlin [00:37:59] Well, it's been a year, so they've been drugging their feet.
Rock Waterman [00:38:01] Well, now, you know, I didn't mention this, but we just Went out to Colorado and we had a retreat, which is essentially a potluck. We had a sacrament meeting on Sunday and we had a testimony meeting. We actually took the sacrament. And it's possible that that's what they're referring to when they say I'm reported to have participated in conduct unbecoming member. If that's the fact, it'll be very interesting. I know that they don't like people taking the sacrament without their approval, but it will be very interesting to find out where they thought they got that we need the approval to take the Lord's Supper. When the Lord commanded that we do it, he didn't say we do it in only sacrament meeting. As you know, sacrament meetings didn't even exist in pioneer days.
John Dehlin [00:38:43] And who was at that meeting that you attended in Colorado?
Rock Waterman [00:38:46] Just a bunch of us. Nobody. Nobody of know.
John Dehlin [00:38:49] How would you describe them?
Rock Waterman [00:38:52] Uncorrelated Mormons.
John Dehlin [00:38:53] Okay, okay. Was Denver there?
Rock Waterman [00:38:56] No.
John Dehlin [00:38:56] Okay.
Rock Waterman [00:38:57] There was. And there's probably a good reason why, you know, he's, he's finished his. He conveyed the message which is essentially read the Scriptures and, and let's do all do better. And he's not the leader of any movement. So Denver wasn't there just a bunch of us. It was held out in Colorado because that was the home of the guy whose idea it was to. To have it raining. So basically we had a potluck dinner. We had a. We had a. What looked like a church dance. We had a testimony meeting and we took the sacrament and we visited. It was just a fun time. And if that's conduct unbecoming, well, then, I don't know, I might be in the wrong church.
John Dehlin [00:39:33] And how many people attended that?
Rock Waterman [00:39:36] 2 to 300, 250. 300.
John Dehlin [00:39:38] And if others want to attend those types of things, how do they get in touch with you guys?
Rock Waterman [00:39:41] Oh, I don't think there's going to be another. Well, there might be. You know, this is just one, one man's idea. Let's get together and have a reunion. It's basically a reunion of people haven't met yet, a lot of online bloggers and just people on Facebook getting together and meeting each other.
John Dehlin [00:39:58] All right, Rock Waterman. Well, good luck next week and we wish you well.
Rock Waterman [00:40:02] All right, thanks, John.
John Dehlin [00:40:03] Thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. And for the listeners, please go up to MormonStories.org and you can let Rock Waterman know what you think and what you feel. Please send an email@rockwatermanmail.com if you've got stories that he can share with his stake presidency. Of course, they're going to probably ignore that, but it's worth collecting the evidence anyway. And again, thanks for all those who support Mormon stories and donate to Keep It Around. Please continue if you can. Thanks again, Rock.
Rock Waterman [00:40:34] Thank you. Good night.
John Dehlin [00:40:35] Talk to you soon.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
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45 Responses
Good morning, I have been reflecting on the motivation for the disciplinary councils that have been discussed on Mormon Stories in the recent weeks. The episodes have been very interesting.
Excommunication as a tool to ensure uniformity has historically been used for political purposes. Persecution of dissenters is certainly well established historically. To keep this brief, historical hierarchies, whether they be Roman or first century Jewish, are self-perpetuating structures that are ultimately in place because God wills it to be so. Those who challenge the hierarchy are ultimately challenging God. We recently discussed this aided by an article dealing with Jesus’ conflict with the Jewish authorities in a Biblical Studies paper I am involved with here at the University.
Excommunication then is a tool to ensure uniformity, which is not unity. The church may eventually learn that uniformity does not create unity, but by the time it does, it will be too late for many.
Quickly, this episode highlights that the priesthood leadership functions as a Board, as any Board of any commercial enterprise. Separating the management of the church from its ecclesiastical management would provide some relief to the questions currently being raised about leadership in the church. The Book of Mormon provides an example of Alma giving up the Judgement Seat to work full-time on his church stewardship. If we could divide the church from its corporate management then we could criticise corporate actions as faithful members without criticising the leadership. Of course we would then expect transparency in corporate governance.
I find there are lots of things to say here, but will read what others have had to say.
Thanks for doing the interview. It was interesting.
I was one of the hundreds who went to Colorado. It was simply a get together of like-minded individuals who are interested in preserving the restoration, because the LDS Church is apparently trampling it under their feet as the basic doctrine becomes “Follow the current prophet,” even at the expense of Jesus’ teachings.
It doesn’t really matter if the people waking up and doing what they feel the Lord wants (at great expense, sometimes) number a thousand, ten thousand, or ten million. God wants a people who will listen to Him. The Church is like the farm Joseph Smith dreamed about. I’m sure it would not accept him now, not the real Joseph and his real teachings.
There needs to be a people here when Jesus comes, a people who can bear His presence without turning into burnt toast. As people turn to Him, are baptized as the scriptures dictate (like Alma did, and like Jesus instructed the Nephites), partake of the sacrament as the scriptures dictate (kneeling, wine), receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, and continue until they come into the Lord’s presence, there will be a people who can bear the Lord’s presence – who will not die in His glorified presence.
Even if it is only one family, that is enough. Hopefully, there will be thousands, tens of thousands, and more.
For those interested in a further, deeper discussion on the tithing thread, on a “safe/ friendly” LDS forum, these pages explore everything Rock covered plus more. Safe for LDS friends and family be referred to.
The thread demonstrated that Tithing was meant to be payable on Surplus income only. Very long thread, hundreds of posts, decimates anyone who says it is payable on gross or net, using scriptures and historical documents and practices.
Also important to know that Malachi 3 was God talking to the CHURCH / the priests. Read Mal 1&2 and it’s very clear.
Rock has touched a nerve…. Tithing receipts must be down if they’re after him.
Good luck Rock, not that you need it.
Nice Porter Rockwell look too
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28207
ROCK ON!
Moses tried his best to get the people to seek God directly and most of them refused, they wanted Moses to do that for them. Lehi had a dream and his son Nephi believed his fathers words but, he went to the Lord for a confirmation and received his own vision. Enos heard his father explain his testimony but went out hunting and prayed until he received an answer from the Lord. Joseph Smith read in James that if he lacked wisdom to ask of God and he would find what he sought. The Lord told us to come unto Him, he employed no servant at the gate. He could not be deceived. He also said the cursed is he that trusts in man or makes flesh his arm. Rock like many of us wants to follow the Lord not men. I agree with him.
Ronald,
I enjoyed your post. It is densely packed with meaning.
“Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD” My question, how many of you place the fulcrum of your faith in Joseph Smith? If he was a fraud then everything that arises out of his acts is a fraud.
Rock should return the disciplinary council invitation letter to sender … marked in red with an F grade for spelling.
If the Church is going to ex him for apostasy, they should at least spell the crime correctly.
I have nothing but respect for you, Rock. You speak THE TRUTH we need to hear.
God Bless You …..
Wow! Talk about an Abinadi moment that is about to happen. The church’s approach to silent people is futile. So happy to be alive in this day and age. I don’t agree with Rock’s statements, but I love his perspective. I wish I could be in that room with him.
I don’t know Rock personally but his blog was very important for my faith transition. Therefore, Rock is one of my favorite people in the world. He showed me that Mormonism is not an all or nothing proposition. I can have faith in some things and discard the obvious hypocrisy or lies about the history of the Church.
I am an active member and I am more interested in the gospel than ever before. I enjoy learning about the doctrines of the church and how they sometimes differ from the Mormon traditions or member doctrines. It is fascinating to become aware of the differences between what the Lord said and the opinions of men.
When I see the church leaders contradict the Lord I am mostly amused. Without Rocks example, I would be mostly annoyed.
I also recommend reading Elder Christofferson’s talk “The Doctrine of Christ” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-doctrine-of-christ?lang=eng&query=the+doctrine+of+christ
This talk helped me understand that even today; one of the apostles acknowledges that not everything we hear from the leaders over the pulpit is by revelation. Revelation through the Prophet is where any new doctrine, that is binding upon the church will be conveyed.
There are so many doctrines in Mormonism that never came from a revelation to a Prophet. They are perpetuated by members and leaders anyway. Many of the talks I hear come from the leaders who “Persist in teaching as church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine…” I am clearly and openly helping and supporting them by pointing out this discrepancy. They teach the ideas, opinions, or philosophies that come from men and they mix them with scripture. Tithing is a true doctrine that is completely encapsulated by false doctrines whenever you hear about it in church.
Thanks for this incredible interview. I have never read Rock’s blog before but I found the tithing post you linked to be spot on. I may disagree with Mr. Waterman on a few issues, but I admire his willingness to really learn about the gospel and encourage others to study these issues out for themselves.
Rock, you have such an important message to convey. I am stunned by your depth of knowledge, but I have a trouble with some of what I see on your blog. I speak specifically of a moving picture you included in the blog post “How Corporatism Has Undermined and Subverted The Church of Jesus Christ.” In it you depict the heads of Presidents Monson and Packer, Elder Bednar, and Sheri Dew on the bodies of rock stars and title the picture “Mormon Idols.” I believe you have a point, but I recoil at mocking and sarcasm which I think this depiction is. Would you be willing to remove these kinds of elements of your blog? I think your message would be more powerful.
Well Rock, there’s your answer to why you’re being exed. How DARE you put LDS Inc leader’s heads on rock star bodies! {facepalm at Joy} (Proof that you’re right about the idol worship)
The good news is that we Mormons are a passive-aggressive bunch (wusses) so the penalty will simply be excommunication and severe shunning (and no more cookies delivered to your home on paper plates on the last day of the month!)
Try mocking the prophet of the religion a couple of notches higher on the crazy scale and it’s “Death to Rock Waterman”! (If that were to happen, at least the T-shirts would be cool: “I am Rock”) ;-)
I have communicated with Rock directly via email and he ALWAYS answers my questions, concerns and speculations. He is very kind and knowledgeable. We don’t agree on Joseph Smith and his status as a prophet, but that has never stopped our dialogue.
Thanks for that Rock. I appreciate your taking the time to communicate with me.
Now this excommunication rampage is comical. The church has doubled down on these proceedings and I don’t believe they know how damaging they are to the public relations image they try so hard to protect. Who is in charge over there? Seriously. It cannot be men who emulate Jesus Christ. Members who are finding out about the high profile members are wondering what the hell is happening. Then when they hear the stories (thanks to John) they are more sympathetic than anything else. Why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT SOME PARTS OF THE FATIH TOO!
I hope the New York Times features Rock’s excommunication story. The truth matters.
Good luck Rock.
Great to see Rock Waterman back on Mormon Stories. Great to hear the stories of so many shades of Mormon belief. Loved the blog posts referenced in the podcast. I look forward to the post disciplinary council update. Rock, I wish for you way more than luck.
What if the whole point of the gospel is to set us on a path out of the “corporate” church? What if excommunication is a worthy goal? What if God, through the corporate church, is trying to help these people realize they have “graduated” from this part of the journey?
I’m not saying it’s true, but perhaps it’s an idea worth considering – no?
What if the LDS Church was never part of God’s plan at all? What if Joseph was not a true prophet? What if he made up everything and/or was deceived by false angels or a false Christ?
What if Christ was serious when he said ‘beware of false prophets’, who preach and practice and write new scriptures contrary to Christ’s commandments, like Joseph Smith did?
What if God is testing us to see if we will fall for false prophets like Joseph Smith, who claim to be true prophets and who tell people to ‘pray about it/him”, cause he knows people will naturally think their warm fuzzies are God’s confirmation and never think they could be from their own mind or from the Adversary.
Most religions teach the idea of ‘warm fuzzies as confirmation’ of what they preach. But Christ didn’t, he said ‘test the spirits’ too, for they can easily deceive us.
Why don’t more people have the same doubts, questions and concerns about Joseph Smith as they do about Brigham Young or the current LDS leaders?
Joseph did not pass Christ’s test of a true prophet any better then any other LDS leader. So what, if Joseph was a false prophet and we fell for him for a while, it mattereth not, for we still have Christ, who said we don’t need anyone else.
Jen –
We can play “what if” all day long. All. Day. Long.
If people can’t trust their own internal compass, what are they supposed to trust? I’m sure as hell not trusting any other human being or measure other than my own internal compass, that’s for sure. When it comes time to face the judgment bar, in any sense, I have to answer for myself – I can tell you pointing fingers in any direction other than at myself is going to fail.
You are right about one thing: following Christ, if one proclaims to be a Christian, is the only thing you should truly focus on – whether one ‘believes’ in Joseph Smith’s experience, the current LDS church, the Catholic church or some other. Ultimately, Christ is all that matters at the end of the day.
Christ taught us to not trust even our ‘own internal compass’, for we can easily be wrong. Just looking at all the different religions people are ‘absolutely sure’ are right, tells us why Christ said that.
Though it’s true we can learn knowledge through the Holy Spirit, false spirits can and do also teach us many falsehoods.
Thus Christ said to test any revelation, inspiration or feelings we may get (or a prophet make get) to make sure they are from God, meaning ‘not contrary’ to his teachings and commandments.
Christ’s teachings are our only sure standard of truth, ‘not’ our internal compass, which can easily be wrong and we would never know it. For wrong can feel so right and right can feel so wrong sometimes.
When anyone says to ‘pray about it’ to know if something is true, you can know for sure that they aren’t following Christ and are hoping you just take your warm fuzzies as proof.
While Christ taught us to ‘prove all things’ before believing them, including and especially our internal compass.
When we do this we can easily see that the preaching and practices of all LDS prophets are completely contrary to Christ’s teachings.
Jen, you are playing word games. How do we know? You say “Christ said to test any revelation, inspiration or feelings we may get” and “Christ’s teachings are our only sure standard of truth,” and “Christ taught us to ‘prove all things’ before believing them.”
That’s great – how do you do that? I think you are missing the point. Just as Joseph Smith correctly observed: “the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.”
In other words, in case you can’t understand what he is saying: everyone has a different interpretation of things, therefore you cannot say “oh, just do what the Bible says,” because that’s questionable, at best.
So, we are back where we started: How do I know what is and what isn’t of God? I have to trust myself and that God will speak to me. We are not here to learn to trust others. Even in your own statements, there’s a huge assumption you don’t seem to appreciate: that I trust what I interpret as being “proof” – that’s the only basis we have for anything. Not sure you realize it, but your understanding of the universe is the only one you’ve ever had and the only one that matters. And the same goes for me.
What if you’re wrong? How would you know? How do you know you can trust your own interpretation of anything?
For me, I have to trust me.
Jen, I agree completely with you because what you said came from the Biblical scriptures. If we don’t believe the Word of God, then we are lost. The word of God is the Bible, and the Living Word is Jesus our Messiah.
I wish I had time to really respond to this, because every “what if” that you throw out could be true. But I find it fascinating that people can read the bible and have a problem with Joseph Smith. Lot’s daughters got him drunk and had sex with him to start a righteous seed. The Lord had a fish swallow Jonah and obviously gave him the air needed to survive inside there. For a guy like me who spends so much of his time in the water, that is pretty crazy stuff. There are so many more bizarre examples of the Lord dealing with people that make Joseph look like a boy scout. The Lord was loving David, with at least 6 wives, having sex with different women every night, but then David loses his place in heaven with adultery with the 7th wife, but oh yea, Christ’s lineage comes from the adulterous relationship between David and Bethsheba!
So I don’t have a problem with Joseph because, although he had sex with multiple women, liked magic, and lied to his wife, its pretty small stuff in God’s dealings. What I love about Joseph is with all his faults, he did prophetic things. I seriously long for prophetic things to happen and that is why the church in my eyes is so off course. I don’t need them, as my happiness doesn’t depend on it, and I love my relationship with my God, but it is just cool when he is working through a prophet on earth like with Noah, those are adventurous times. I don’t detect a prophetic uttering or action for like at least 100 years, likely since 1844. And that goes for all the churches. Seriously, Glenn Beck makes more prophecies per month that have come true than every jds prophet since Joseph put together. The popes, like none, preachers in small churches across America, little tiny ones here and there and mostly for their flock, but nothing real substantial.
So What If it is God’s plan to plop a prophet down on earth for some truth and then we are supposed to go directly to him for our personal revelation from then on out? I listen to christian’s and I love them, but it is really hard for me to pray to an amorphous God. My wife is my best friend and I’d love to spend eternity hanging with her. So I appreciate those little nuggets that most Christians reject. And I like talking to my father in heaven and thinking we could sit by a campfire by the ocean some day and talk about this crazy adventure. I don’t like the idea of hanging out with a big blob of anti-matter that became a man then turned back into being in everything and could be just thoughts in my mind as he fills the universe. I think God’s plan is a whole lot bigger than the mormon church, but I think that it definitely has it’s place in the puzzle as did Joseph.
Have fun with your what if’s, what if we aren’t real, we just think we are. Those thoughts don’t do anything for my happiness and many of the thoughts that came through Joseph are seeds I planted and feel pretty good and have grown into some pretty cool happiness trees in my life.
Very good questions. What if the LDS CHURCH INC. is only a money making organization fraudulently promising things that will never come about?
Best wishes to you Rock in your Court of Love?! Let your light continue to shine and stand forth. I admire your strong belief and knowledge in the restoration/church of old. Wow, how it has changed from my early years. It was special as a youth early on with all of the activities. I have since graduated from Separation and Harmful beliefs. Life is good. It is a simple beautiful life and I love my Neighbors!
Hey, U-Rock!
I’m delighted you are calling it as you see it … openly in public … which is The Brethren’s definition of Apostasy … telling the truth out loud. How dare you?
I will confess, however, that my pencil breaks every time I try to connect your dots. You come across as very intelligent with cognition well intact. I was astonished to hear you state that you believe Joseph saw God and Jesus in person, you believe the Golden Plates existed and the Book of Mormon is not fiction, etc.
(sound of throat clearing … ) Rock, have you read the CES Letter? Really. No, Really. Have you read it?
My opinion is that your local bishop and SP are asking you a totally rational question: Why do you want to be a member of a Church whose leadership you have essentially dismissed as modern-day corporate frauds?
Pretty certain you will be excommunicated unless you agree to shut up. In the meantime, I am baffled as to how you can honestly continue to believe the Joseph Smith cartoon. You are kidding, right? You have some strategy to profess belief in hopes to not get yourself ex’d?
If so, you will not want to spill the beans until after they kick your butt out the chapel door with an invitation to check back in a year.
Rock, help me connect your dots here. They are simply refusing to hook up for me. Why haven’t you transitioned to the Community of Christ?
Thanks much.
Every now and then I get asked this question: “why don’t you go and join the Community of Christ?”
That presupposes that one or the other of these branches of the restoration has the “true authority.” I reject the idea that any one denomination holds the keys.
Whatever “authority was on the earth at one time seems to have died with joseph and Hyrum. It certainly was not passed on to Brigham Young, and if Joseph III ever was ordained (a possibility), the RLDS tradition is running on fumes today just as the Brighamites are.
It’s time to realize that no man or group of men owns the church of Jesus Christ. We can look around and see the leaders of neither faction demonstrate the gifts they claim to have. What we do have is the scriptures, and the hope that one day God will clean this mess up. In the meantime, who needs leaders? Jesus is King.
This is such a resounding, fresh notion. We really get caught up in the things of man, at all levels.
Best of luck at your hearing. I think you have them scared.
CES Letter?! You have got to be kidding me brother!
Rock Waterman’s stake pres and bishop seem to be relatively unfamiliar with his writings. Clearly his leaders are being directed to hold a disciplinary council. His stake pres wouldn’t do this on his own without really knowing what it is that Rock even writes.
It reminds me of the Calderwood’s disciplinary council where the stake president proceeded with deep reluctance and read a list of straw man charges that didn’t exactly fit, as though he were cribbing from someone else’s notes.
And why the one year wait to finally hold a disciplinary council against Rock? Because whoever is pulling the strings didn’t want Rock’s excommunication to appear coordinated with John Dehlin’s and Kate Kelly’s? Please. Any fool can see what’s going on here. The one year wait only made it more obvious.
Excellent podcast. One that would topple this one would pair Brother Waterman and ex-Brother Larsen sharing some views. Larsen has expressed concerns about a strain of fundamentalism gaining a hold of “The Church”. I believe that albeit Brother Waterman is on point in many of his criticisms his view seems, from a distance, insular. Matter of fact, sorry to say but you sometimes speak “we” meaning a very narrow section of people. Brother Waterman strikes me as the Tea Party movement of Mormonism. Always this idea that the 19th century was somehow better. Less Brethren equals better church. The “We” means a rather narrow concept. If that was the case, neither I nor my first wife [whose faith I do admire to this day] would have never been exposed to the Gospel….. because “we” means a narrow moment in geography and time . The Church has spent considerable monies becoming an international church. Such operations are neither cheap nor simple to plan, operate and execute. Operationally those organizations will reflect a corporation. Is Brother Waterman saying that the Church should go back to it’s 19th century fundamentals or to de-evolve into THE 19TH CENTURY Organization? Sometimes is not altogether clear what he means….. Ex Brother Larsen would say that since it is moot to move forward philosophies that are of dubious nature and origins it is better to do nothing and head for the next watering hole and have some beers, preferably IPA’s. One has to be trendy u know?……… Nonetheless the podcast was great and I follow them with interest. I’m a fan.
I enjoyed Rock’s point of view. I found it a bit disingenuous with the stated purpose of Mormon Stories that John began challenging Rock on his belief in the continued existence of God’s true church on the earth (followed by a nervousness of playing with his hair in an apparent display of frustration). I thought this forum was meant for all views, so John, please be careful not to call others beliefs out like you began to do with Rock.
It jarred me too, but then I realized John was trying to fully round out the interview. But the problem is, the topic needs it’s own dedicated show, starting with let’s define what a church is, and going from there.
Your excommunication is a foregone conclusion, Rock. Someone at the top threw the switch which started the wheels turning. Curiously, your local leaders are unwitting and unknowing pawns in this effort to get you into the religious garbage chute. Because something taught with good reason in the D&C is also being applied to these corporate housecleaning power plays the term ‘court of love’ has become wildly ironic.
I admire your regard for your friends the local accusers—you know, the ones unsure if you’re leaving Stacy or being booted out of a religious club. Your intention to witness to them of Jesus Christ, his doctrine and church, is the exciting part of this scenario. Like in the story of Abinadi, there is a real possibility that through you, the spirit may touch the heart of one of these good folks and open him up to greater light and knowledge. Light and love to you.
Best wishes to you Rock in your Court of Love?! I admire your strong belief and knowledge in the restoration/church of old. Wow, how it has changed from my early years. It was special as a youth early on with all of the activities. I have since graduated from Separation, Judgement, and Harmful Beliefs. Life is good. It is a simple beautiful life and I love my Neighbors, May the force be with you.
I have truly enjoyed reading Rock’s writings. He has an acute sense of humor, which I wish our church leaders had more of. I hope he does not ever stop. I am so thankful that I found his blog or I would feel so alone in the world. He is spot on for me on most issues. Of course none of us agree on everything. That’s what our leaders don’t get. Even they disagree on things…. “Conflict in the Quarom”…. and isn’t that part of the human experience?
The Area Seventy named Smith in the Fifth Quorum of the Seventy is D. Zackary Smith. He was called 6 April 2013 and he is from Visalia, California, in California’s Central Valley.
https://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/63517/Newly-called-to-Quorums-of-the-Seventy.html
He is an attorney in Visalia, California.
https://www.visalialaw.com/Attorneys/D-Z-Smith.shtml
Very sound and logical arguments, which of course are what will get you into trouble with the modern corporate church. It looks like you are being charged with “apostacy,” whatever that may be. Good luck!
Rock,
i like how you say it as you see it. the problem i see with lds mormonism lies at the top. serious change needs to happen but no one seems to want serious change at the top. we need disenfranchised lds mormons to start a movement that keeps the good of the church (ordinances) and throws away what doesn’t work with in the lds church. a hybrid model that is partly community of christ in social progressiveness but keeps the ordinances of the lds church. i am all for women (or girls) holding the priesthood and allow for gay marriage ! thats the kind of church we need – flexibility, social progressiveness, where leaders listening to the needs of the members isn’t optional.
Rock,
you make some great points. as a believing but disaffected lds mormon who has studied the problems of lds mormonism over the years i believe mormons like us ought to band together and to just start a new faith community. to me it seems like the option that makes the most emotional, spiritual, and social sense. instead of dwelling on the negativities of lds mormonism lets just build a new faith community. that seems to me to be the healthiest option.
John,
have you ever thought of having a guest on who specializes on sociology ? i just changed my major to sociology and many of the concepts i am learning in sociology very well apply to the way the lds church is run namely patriarchy, hegemony, heterosexism and so on.
a great interview.
truly,
Michael F.
One of my favorite stories in the scriptures is when Christ excommunicated people for honest disagreements and then purged his church. I just love that story!
Nice snark, David. :)
Yea, David that’s my favorite story too.
When Jesus presides over a tribunal of love to determine the evil committed and then to punish accordingly.
I love it when peevish, prying and intimate questions reveal the apostate’s crimes.
Oh to return to the days of an honest man.
The church doesn’t care about doctrine or what the scriptures say; they care about their agenda and maintaining their positions. I’ve been listening to many of these interviews and the common theme is not to rock the boat. If you start to doubt and question it in a public manner, you’re out. That’s just bad form and more telling about an organization than anything. As the church gets older, it seems like some of the core teachings are changing and people just accept everything that comes from Salt Lake, but again, that’s one of the commandments. Any intelligent person or organization will seek questions and answers, even if the questions are outside the norm of that organization.
Rock,
Thanks for the interview. I liked the part where you regretted going to seeing the bishop about your “transgression.” Never once have I found peace and relief from my sins by confessing to the bishop. In fact, all it has given me is more shame and leverage for the church.
It wasn’t until I realized, all I needed to do was confess my sins to my Lord and Savior, that I received true relief from my pain. For the last 6 years I have gone to my savior Jesus Christ and confessed my sins. The results have been transforming. I am a new person. I no longer harbor guilt, shame and anger. My love for all has grown in leaps and bounds. I have never in my 45 years been a happier person.
I encourage all who believe they need to confess their sins to a dentist or a lawyer (i.e. Bishop) to seriously reconsider and come back to Christ. Your life never be the same!!