Welcome and Panel Introductions

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 942

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast, in this case, Mormon News Podcast. I'm your host, John delinquent. It is June 6, 2018, and as always, we're very excited for the panel that we have pulled together today as we're trying to do on Mormon Stories. We have pulled together the week's news and our goal for now is to review it with various panelists and just to talk about it. The main subject of discussion today is going to be the recent B1 event that was held June 1, 2018, where the LDS Church celebrated the 40th anniversary of its lifting of the ban on priesthood to black males and of temple blessings and temple full temple access to all people of African descent.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] So that's going to be the main thing that we're talking about. We're also going to be talking about the Week in News and a few other stories. Before we jump in, we just want to remind everyone, as we always do, that we have a few events coming up.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] The core mission of the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories Podcast is to support Mormons who were struggling in a religious or faith transition in their marriages, raising kids with health with mental health, with spirituality, with finding community with mixed faith marriages, etc. So without going into much detail, go to MormonStories.org events. You'll learn that this weekend we have a retreat in Park City June 8th through 10th, in Houston, July 13th through 15th we have a retreat, Idaho Falls, August 10th 11th, Portland, Oregon, August 17th through 18th. The Bahamas cruise is October 24th through 28th and the Sacramento workshop is November 2nd through 3rd. We do have thanks to the generous donations of several donors, we do have scholarships available.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] You have to pay for your food. But if you want to attend one of these events, you can email us@staffopenstoriesfoundation.org and apply to attend one of these events on scholarship or if you can't afford it, we've priced them very low. You can just sign up and register now for Park City or any of the upcoming events. We really want to encourage you to join us.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] So please, do these events really help people? So that is the news that we have for today. What I'm now very excited to do is to introduce our amazing panel. Everyone on our panel today has done one, if not several Mormon stories, interviews and or appeared in past Mormon News podcast episodes. So I'm going to introduce each one and ask each of you to give yourselves a brief introduction. The person that I'll welcome first to today's panel is Juliana Villegas. Juliana, welcome back to Mormon news podcast and Mormon stories.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:34] Hi. Thank you for having me. I think people in the Mormon stories community kind of know who I am by now. I've done a few podcasts and a couple of newsroom, so what can I say? So I've written, you know, several op EDS in the Salt Lake Tribune. I did a Mormon story. I'm a voice for, you know, minorities in the church still. Even though I am not active at this time, I still have linked, you know, through family, friends and I stay plugged in some. So I'm happy to participate and, you know, share some thoughts today.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] We love having you, Juliana. Welcome, welcome, welcome. All right, the next guest that we want to introduce is Shawn Carter, who again is joining us not for the first time. Sean, tell us a bit about yourself.

Sean Carter [00:04:32] Let's see. I'm offended that I didn't have to do this. I thought everyone in the Mormon, including by the way, one of the apostles. That is my claim to fame and I think I'm going to be. Am I the only member on the panel who has met an apostle? And Dieter Ortorf and I are on first name basis. I call him D Money.

Sean Carter [00:04:55] I'm not just famous within the Exmoor community, but very closely tied in with the apostles. If you don't know who I am out, you'll find out during the podcast. I want to hear more from Darren. I got to tell you, and I shouldn't have told you this on pre production, but I want to embarrass Darren a little bit. Dr. Darren Smith is one of the reasons I joined the church. I listened to his early, early podcast. This is like what Mormon stories 7.

Sean Carter [00:05:24] And hearing his testimony and even though he was kind of on the way out was really a big influence for me. So I'm kind of a fanboy here and I'm looking forward to being on

Darron Smith [00:05:33] this panel with Darren.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] All right. And Shawn Carter is a lawyer and a comedian and I'll just say that for you. Well, Darren Smith, that's a nice introduction. Darren, do you want to go next?

Darron Smith [00:05:43] Yeah. Thank you, Sean. That was, that was, that's fantastic. I mean, I wasn't expecting that. So this is my Wakanda time. Appreciate that, man. You've seen the evolution from the, from the time I started to where we, where I am today.

Darron Smith [00:06:00] And I mean, I'm no stranger to this community. Like I said, I have one of the first. I feel real proud. The fact that I was one of the first persons on the show and I remember John and I had just a delightful conversation and I still get people who email me from all those years, you know, we did that about that particular episode. So that was my introduction to the work that John does. And I want to say that my work has continued in terms of what I do professionally is I teach at a university here in Memphis and I still write about Mormon issues, even though, like Julienna, I'm not really active in the church, but I still champion members of color trying to.

Darron Smith [00:06:40] Trying to find a space where they can find peace. And so. And I'll continue to do that as long as I have breath and interest. So. But I appreciate being on this absolutely fantastic committee. Looking forward to hearing from all of your remarks. Is someone else here?

John Dehlin [00:06:58] Yeah, we have one last panelist. Last but not least, Sarah Newcomb. We always love having you. Can you just give us a quick little introduction? Welcome back.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:07:10] Hi.

Sarah Newcomb [00:07:10] Yeah, I have been on Mormon Stories podcast and I currently live that Truth website. And yeah, I am somewhat of an activist for just truth, putting truth out there and having, you know, having a place for people that have experienced unique experiences to land at least in the Native American and South American and Pacific island communities. But anything kind of surrounding racial issues, I get a little passionate about.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] All right, well, Sarah, it's always great to have you back. And again, the website's Lamanite Truth, right?

Sarah Newcomb [00:07:50] Yes, Lamanite truth dot com.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] Okay, welcome, welcome. All right, so we've got a lot to cover today. And the first thing that we wanted to cover is was some of the latest stories in the news. And I think this, this first one, Sarah, we want to give you first dibs on covering it. This is from Fox News. It says, judge won't dismiss lawsuit against LDS Church over sex abuse claims.

Navajo Tribal Court Dismisses LDS Sex Abuse Lawsuit

John Dehlin [00:08:23] And if I'm just reading a little bit more, it's basically saying a Navajo tribal court judge has refused a request by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to dismiss lawsuits alleging sex abuse in a church run program. And as we go on, it basically talks about the Lamanite student placement program and how in the 60s and 70s there were several children who were sexually abused as a part of the program.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] My understanding is that this lawsuit has attempted to subpoena Thomas S. Monson, who has since passed. But anyway, the church tried to get the case dismissed and we have a judge saying, I'm not going to dismiss this case. So, Sarah, as somebody who identifies as Native American, do you have any initial responses to this story?

Sarah Newcomb [00:09:12] Well, I was actually really excited and kind of impressed by the Navajo judge. But looking at this just from a business standpoint, because this is a little bit separate from, thankfully separate from beliefs or anything that's going to get too personal for people. This is just great business. These children were taken out of their homes and put into this program. But the program was. Would. Was kind of placed on the Navajo reservation like that. The people weren't going out and finding the program. The program was located also on the reservation, and the children would be taken out as part of that. So the. The Navajo judge basically. Where is the quote?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:01] I found a quote,

Sarah Newcomb [00:10:04] but she. She basically was pointing out that they found that the tribal courts have jurisdiction because the program was based there. And one of the other aspects of it is one of the Navajo fundamental beliefs is that children shouldn't be harmed. And so you're going to find a lot of passion coming from the Navajo Nation about this, about these circumstances and what the children went through. And just from a business aspect, the program wasn't only run off of the reservation, it was also run on the reservation in recruitment and finding the children and baptizing them into the program. They'd have to get baptized to go into the program.

Sarah Newcomb [00:10:49] So there's a lot of interesting aspects to it, but looking up in the news, it is all over the place. This isn't a small news story. There are pages and pages of different news articles and different newspapers and people that picked up the story. So I'm interested to see how it unfolds just in.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] And let me just ask you, emotionally, how does it feel, just emotionally, in terms of justice or vindication? Do you have any emotional things you want to share?

Sarah Newcomb [00:11:23] You just had to go there. Darn it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:11:31] John.

Sarah Newcomb [00:11:38] When it comes to children standing up for what they experienced, especially those that haven't had power, those that haven't been listened to, this is one reason why even Sam Young is just like this huge hero of mine, because it's all about the children. This isn't about beliefs.

Sarah Newcomb [00:12:00] This isn't about choices of people long, long ago that created a religion. This isn't about religion itself. This is about a business, the business side of things and the legality side of things, and seeing some justice come from.

Sarah Newcomb [00:12:26] Not that even there's justice yet, but there is in some ways, because they, the Navajo Nation, has at least stood up for their people, and they have enough power to at least say, no, this isn't right. Where it'll go from here, I don't know. But it happens. Not just to, you know, not just within Mormonism this idea of taking children out of their homes and the idea of save the man, kill the Indian. I don't know if you've ever heard that term, John, but that was kind of what was the driving force behind all the families being ripped apart.

Sarah Newcomb [00:13:06] But yeah, I'm really excited to see some movement in addressing that. Yeah, it happened. I think one of the biggest things that causes pain isn't trying to find some perfect closure or there's no going back, there's no changing the past.

Sarah Newcomb [00:13:30] But not denying it happened, not, you know, having it acknowledged and validated. And these people are people that are still alive. And you know, the people that experienced it, this affected their entire lives. And it didn't just affect the person abused, it affected the entire communities, the entire Navajo Nation. And in some ways, this one case, this happening, it's not just going to affect people that were affected by the Lamanite or Mormon program. It's going to also affect Native American communities all over America that experience being taken out of their homes and having families ripped apart to be put into church or state run schools to save the man, kill the Indian. So, yeah, I'm pretty emotional about it, but I don't want to take up. There's other stuff to go over.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] No, this is important stuff. I have to say that it's a, it's a little. And thank you, Sarah, for being willing to share. I have to say it's. I don't understand it. It's hard for me to reconcile a church named after Jesus that is trying to dismiss a lawsuit where they're being viewed as culpable for sexual abuse of a child. Shawn Carter, you're an attorney. I know that churches have legal rights. I know that someone must be proven innocent until proven guilty. How do we make sense of the fact that can a church have liability and own up to it and not try and have a case dismissed? Is there some middle ground here? Or does the church have to just act like a corporation and do all the things that a corporation would do? Or is there a middle ground as a lawyer?

Sean Carter [00:15:26] Here's the thing is, while you do have a right to defend yourself, you do not have an obligation to do so. So you certainly could. The church in any institution could admit fault, could agree to, you know, some type of restitution, just do do this on a confidential basis so they don't publicly admit fault. They simply pay people right to, you know, their claims. But you know, privately. It's interesting here though, because for some reason it just seems impossible for Large religious institutions to. To do the right thing in this kind, or assuming that I believe the allegations are true, to do the right thing.

Sean Carter [00:16:08] We see the same thing with the Catholic church or any other large institution where it just seems to be they act like corporations. Now, if you're a corporation, you do have an obligation to preserve the company's capital and all that. But in a religious institution, there is no obligation that they fight this lawsuit. But the natural inclination for most individuals and most institutions seems to be to never admit fault, to do so reluctantly, if ever, and to, you know, draw out the pain of the victims. It's unfortunate.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] Yeah. In my ideal world, the church would look into these situations, see if they're guilty. If they're guilty, make a payout or make some sort of restitution or admit it. And then if they say this is a false claim, they would say that, and they would fight it. But just. It seems like they're on lawyer AutoPilot with Curtin McConkey, and it's really sad to see. Sarah, did you have a response to Sean?

Sarah Newcomb [00:17:04] Well, I was just gonna say, I think that's the whole point is just with what he said, is it kind of. It's their choice. It's their choice whether they want to run it as a business or run it as a spiritual leading the world, you know, and more often than not, it seems like it falls back into business mode rather than the spiritual. And that's why I look at what's happening with the Navajo Nation purely on the business side of things, because time and time again, that's how it's approached from the church.

John Dehlin [00:17:39] On the one hand, I get it. They've got. We know they have hundreds of billions of dollars in assets that they're trying to protect. On the other hand, I'm thinking, would it be that awful to settle? Like, could you afford a couple million or 5 million or 10 million, if. If literally you've been culpable for some sort of abuse? And I. I just think there's so much money, they feel like they've got to protect it. I don't know.

Sarah Newcomb [00:18:01] I'm not even sure. I'm not sure it's just the money they're trying to protect. I think a lot more of it is. Is just image and the institution. I think if they could have quieted this with money, they would have. But I'm guessing that the Navajo people weren't gonna do that. They weren't gonna go down quietly without a fight, so. Or they were underestimated. There's there's every chance of that, that they were underestimated.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] We did see in that West Virginia case recently that the folks in West Virginia did settle. So sometimes people do and they need to really quickly. Darren and Juliana, do either of you have a quick comment about this case?

Darron Smith [00:18:50] Not this case in particular, but I was going to ask Sarah if she's aware of anybody, maybe any of you, are you aware of anyone who's done work around this topic, who maybe interviewed survivors of this program in the 60s and some of the stories that they can tell about what happened? I know a couple of people I was thinking about doing this with Cardell Jacobson, but he's retired. Since retired. I just wanted to know, has anyone done this work, look and interview these people, talk to them about the program? I mean, did a really honest, scholarly work on it and that's, you know, is anyone, anyone aware of that? I'm not.

Sarah Newcomb [00:19:26] There's been a lot of interviews of people that were in the program. Most of them are inspirational interviews. So as far as a variety of experiences, I haven't seen a lot of in depth, balanced interviews. It's usually interviews with an agenda that I found.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] That sounds like a good project for the Lamanite Truth Initiative.

Darron Smith [00:19:56] Yeah, it really does.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] Not to give you work, Sarah, I'm sure you've got a lot going on.

Sarah Newcomb [00:20:01] No, that's something that I could definitely get.

Darron Smith [00:20:05] Sarah, do you have access to that population?

Sarah Newcomb [00:20:09] Oh, yeah.

Darron Smith [00:20:10] Okay. I used to work down in Blanding for foreigners region. So I kind of know that area. I know some people down there. I was, I was gonna. I was gonna. What my plan was, was to draw. Get a sample of people down there and a sample of people here. I was gonna look at their telomeres to see if there's any environmental processes in the region that might shorten or lengthen telomeres in that population. Telomeres or end caps on molecules, our DNA, as we get older, they unravel and it shows. Either we're getting. Chronologically we're getting older or we're being succumbed by disease.

Darron Smith [00:20:47] Diseases that are social in nature, that impact upon our health and well being, like mainly being shamed, blamed, discriminated against. Things that we've been talking about. Those are the things that, that we know now from neuroscience are absolutely super, super important when talking about racism and the impact of discrimination. So it's no longer just the social impact of discrimination. And I think that's what the. I think the deafness of it is, that it really does get Beneath the skin. And at the end of the day, it kills people. And these processes are intergenerationally transferred from one generation to the next.

Darron Smith [00:21:24] Right. These traumatic endeavors that marginalized groups have had to deal with. And the church, and this is the way I look at it with all these institutions, y', all, is that the church, when the church was conceived of as an institution, it had the, you know, the wonderful words and pretty boxes and all that, but it really didn't conceptualize what to do with people of color like most white institutions.

Darron Smith [00:21:49] What do we do with the people that we've marginalized, that are marginalized? How do we reconcile that? So they spend 130 years trying to figure that out. And so the pain for black people, black people, is this constant secondhand, second class citizenship sort of membership where they function behind the scenes in the sense that they don't get the same love and respect that the white members get simply because of the historical circumstances of the church. And like other white organizations right there, weren't prepared for black people or any other people for that matter. Gay, lesbian, don't matter. Native American.

John Dehlin [00:22:30] Juliana, did you want to jump in real quick?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:32] So as far as the Navajo, I'm not very familiar with this, but I would agree with, with the thoughts that the church does a lot to protect its image. It's not so much about the money, I would think. I also believe that if they could quiet things down, they would because they have the means.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:54] But it's image always, you know, trying to push things aside, you know, not look at it, to dissociate from it, hoping that, you know, it will get buried like lot of things do in the church. So I can see it's kind of a pattern that, I mean, I see happening a lot even as we will talk a little bit later with the, you know, the celebration quote, unquote.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:23:23] I have a lot of thoughts about that. Because the church is a way of acting that is, you know, we're not going to look at it. We're just going to shine light on what is, what is working for us, which a lot of things are. And so they have a lot to play with in order to camouflage the things that are. I mean, I don't know if you want me to say this now or later, but it's beautiful to celebrate the African community within the church. But show me the leaders that are not specifically in their country. Show me the leaders at the head of the church. How many black leaders leaders are there?

John Dehlin [00:24:05] You know, yeah, it's a minority. It's a minority for sure.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:08] But even like among, you know, headquarters. I mean, if you're gonna be so inclusive, prove it. Show it. Don't talk about it. Just show me that you're gonna, you trust these people and they can be an apostle. They can be, you know, anything you can be. Because it's one thing to put people up front and, you know, do cover like they've done for many, many years. Like, you know, when the Mormon TABernacle Choir has one or two, you know, black people like the cameras on them all the time to show that we're inclusive and we have, you know, diversity. But I mean, to me it's. And again, I mean, maybe we should start with the positive things that, you know, came out of that, that celebration.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] Totally, totally.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:53] And talk about, you know, what wasn't there.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Okay, well, Sarah, thank you for, thank you for being willing to come on to give us your thoughts on that. We know that you are going to be able to join us for the full time. So stay with us for as long as you'd like. But mostly, thank you for being willing to give us your perspective on that new story.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:10] Thank you, Sarah.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] And we'll cover it more in the weeks and months ahead as we hear more about the story. Is that all right?

Sarah Newcomb [00:25:17] Yeah, that sounds great.

John Dehlin [00:25:19] Okay, thanks, Sarah. A couple other quick things in the news that are worth mentioning. So it looks like the president, Russell M. Nelson of the LDS Church has asked members and specifically teens to ditch social media for seven days. On the one hand, I think that this, this makes sense. Even in my family, even with me, not alone my wife and kids, we're all using social media too much. And so a fast probably has some good things associated with it. Others want to say that this is a way for the church to keep information from its members, specifically around the issues of the $32 billion Mormon leaks thing, you know, reactions to B1, any of the stuff around the race problems. Panelists, do any of you want to give an opinion about the requested seven day fast?

Church-Recommended Social Media Fast and Online Life

Sean Carter [00:26:27] I have to tell you, I think it's like for the reason you said it's a good idea. Just generally, I don't think it's possible. I'm 50 years old and I can tell you I couldn't do it. I got suspended for Facebook for one day. I was in one day of Facebook jail. It was the worst day of my entire Life.

Sean Carter [00:26:48] It was May 1, 2018. I remember for the rest of my life. It is my, you know, the day I got out of Facebook jail. May 2 is Juneteenth for me. That's my day of liberation. It was horrible.

Sean Carter [00:27:02] I gotta tell you. That is very addictive. And here's the thing about it is a connecting force. I realized, John, that day, I was. I thought I was never gonna get back on Facebook again. I'm not sure I have a way to contact you. All right. I certainly didn't have a way to get in touch with Darren or Julienna or 200 other people that I like to hear from their opinions very often and regularly. It is a huge force. It really is. And the question I think we should do another time is to talk about what's been called race book and the way in which Facebook, through their algorithms, kind of tamps down the conversations on personality, et cetera, by, you know, it's word policing, et cetera. And I think. Darren, you. Darren, have you ever been to Facebook jail?

Darron Smith [00:27:49] No, I was in Facebook jail recently, but I'm just interested to hear you say that.

Sean Carter [00:27:53] Yeah, well, what happens is there are a lot of black activists who have a problem on Facebook. Here's why. If you use certain words, like they say the N word, okay? Even in a proper historical context, that can get flagged by a user who's offended by it. And Facebook doesn't have a black. You know, black people can use that word rule, right? So if you're a black person and use that word, like I said, even in the right context, if you're turned in by someone, you go to jail. And they don't have any way to filter between those things. So if you're an African American person, you ever notice, for instance, like, a lot of people use white people, but they'll use wypipo.

Sean Carter [00:28:29] They're trying to avoid the Facebook filter that will say, hey, if you make a discouraging claim about any group of people, people, then Facebook will say, hey, that's a violation of our community standards. And this is another different story. But the point is, though, John, get back to John's story. Honestly, can any of us go a week without any social media?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:28:51] I can. Yeah. I'm a little bit of a different household here. Like, I don't even own a TV in my house. So you must be totally. I do get news, you know, I listen to npr and I can plug in if I want to plug in, you know, of course. And I use, in fact, social media if I want to know, you know, some of the stuff. But. But I have other sources. But, you know, I don't dislike the idea of no Like, I take social media for my kids. I mean, they're still young, and I don't want them on screens all the time. And there's good and bad, and I want them to be able to live in the real world without social media and without, you know, being on a screen.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:29:28] But I do know that when the church does something, it's usually because there's a bigger reason behind. So I don't, you know, and of course, there is all these things that are positive, but it could be also that, yes, they don't want them to hear about all the, you know, the backlash for some of the things they've been accused of doing and the reaction of certain people.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:29:49] So, you know, like, I don't know. I don't know. I do know that there is always it's the church never does something that's not like, super calculated with bigger reasons behind just because I've researched and dig into that. And I, you know, I know how they work. So.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] Sure, sure. That makes sense. Okay, a couple other stories, then. Let's get to the main one. There's a report coming out of the Daily Herald that all LDS missionaries are being transferred out of Nicaragua. I don't know if that means that. I guess it's reportedly related to continued violence and political unrest in Nicaragua. And so I guess they don't want the missionaries to be hurt there. Incidentally, I received a really interesting message from a listener in Mexico who wrote, wrote Hola, Juan, I don't know if you're aware of the area program in Mexico to close stakes, wards and branches. I live in Monterrey, and at least they just closed one stake a week ago in many wards.

LDS Stake Closings in Mexico and Nicaragua

John Dehlin [00:30:59] This program started a few years ago closing two stakes in Guadalajara, and it's going on in the entire country. You may have more context than I do, and they're saying that the reason why is they want to have better wards. But the truth, according to this listener, is that many people are not attending church, the people are not paying tithing, and now there are lots of empty buildings. So he's recommending that we cover this as a topic. So interesting things going on in Latin America. Any comments from panelists on that before we jump into the main kind of the main topic?

Darron Smith [00:31:33] I think Tim Heaton knows a lot about that. He's a professor at byu. I think he's still there. Cardell knows a lot about that. I think Peggy Mac. Peggy Fletcher Stack also looks at that, looks at the demographic changes in that region, too. And I know, and I know that South America has been growing huge in leaps and bounds in terms of Protestant evangelical type faiths, but faiths that are more like, more like Mormon, very sterile, Protestant kind of based faith traditions are losing favor. The Catholic Church, unless they're a. We call it.

Darron Smith [00:32:10] There's a specific term for Catholics who are very much into activism, liberation, liberation theology practitioners in that region. And that's happening all over the world, not just in South America. We've seen the same thing in Africa as well. So white European based churches like the Mormon Church are no longer interesting places where people go and gather and get, get their spiritual message from.

Darron Smith [00:32:36] They're being eclipsed by holy rollers and the evangelicals in the south and other regions of the country who have a different style about them, different style of oration.

Introducing the BeOne Celebration Discussion

John Dehlin [00:32:47] All right, well, I think unless anybody else has something to say about that, I think that covers kind of the major news stories. And now I think it's time to go ahead and jump into the B1 reactions to the B1 celebration. So does anybody want to set up what B1 was about? For those who have been under a rock and don't know, who wants to take a stab at it?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:33:16] I can, I mean, you're going to fill in because I may, you know, forget some things. But mostly I think the church is reacting to what's been happening for, I mean, many, many years. But these past couple of years, I think, you know, lots of people, including myself, have written about, you know, why don't we hear from you about, you know, apologies, you know, the fact that you, the last one, you know, in the churches to accept people of color, like 1978, it's way late. And I think they've been studying because the church always moves very slowly and very carefully and very religiously, politically, correctly.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:33:57] I think they've been preparing this probably for several years, for a couple of years at least. How are you going to address this? And I believe the B1 is their response to the things that people have been asking, which is not an apology, but it's, listen, things are going well. Leave in the past. What's in the past. Look, we have tons of happy, you know, people of color among our, among us. And let's focus on that. And so of the, the celebration itself. So it happened in Salt Lake, in the, in the conference center. It was a packed, you know, full, the place was full.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:34:38] It was very, very well done. It was, you know, to look at, you know, the positive. I think it was refreshing to, to see, you know, people of color up on the scene themselves, it was a different feel. I want to say that Alex Boy, but mostly Gladys Knight has. Oh, sorry, am I going too far? Too far?

John Dehlin [00:35:02] Yeah. We're going to cover it in depth. And so I just wanted to kind of give people an understanding of kind of.

Darron Smith [00:35:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:08] What the general thing was. So thank you for giving us that summary. Let me start with a question for all three of you. As I've been preparing for this discussion, I realized that in many ways, this event wasn't for anyone here who's on this panel. All of us have left the church. I'm not a person of color. I'm an ex Mormon. None of you go to church. And so is there even a place as we're about to go dive in? I'm curious if any of you feel like it's still even fair for you to be sharing your thoughts or opinions about this. So, Sean, why don't you start? Is it even relevant for you to be sharing your opinion or not?

Reactions to the 40th Anniversary BeOne Event

Sean Carter [00:35:52] Oh, absolutely. See, I was black a long time before I was Mormon, all right? And so I keep a little black crane in my back pocket at all times. I'm gonna stay black. Don't really have a choice. And also because, like you said, the audience, by the way, for this is not just those people in the conference center, and it certainly wasn't white Mormons, because they didn't care. They were at Pride, let me tell you. We'll talk about that. Let me tell you what the real, real audience was. The real audience is for

John Dehlin [00:36:26] the people

Sean Carter [00:36:26] who are not members of the church, all right, In America who are looking at the Mormons. It's the same audience as Meet the Mormons. All right? It's trying to have the churches to show the church as being this progressive organization that has moved past its horrible racist past and is celebrating the inclusion of these people and basically trying to say, hey, we're just like everybody else. We're a regular mainstream Christian religion. We've gotten rid of this fringe racial element. And so it's, like I said, the same argument for the Meet the Mormon people, Meet the Mormon audience, which is why the Meet the Mormons always featured people that you would never meet in a Mormon church. African American, you know, Native American boxing, boxing champions, you know, that type of thing. And so as long as the church is still, you know, trying to play that shell game, I'm bringing.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:25] All right, well, I'm gonna let. But then I do want to answer your question, like, do I have a right quote unquote to Even, you know, express how I feel about this. But I'm gonna.

Darron Smith [00:37:36] I was gonna tackle that question just from. From my own perspective, just to be clear.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] I don't mean. Right. I mean is it relevant, is it fair? And it's. It's a hypothetical. Go ahead, Darren.

Darron Smith [00:37:46] Good question. It's a good question. And I say, hell yeah, I paid my dues, dog. I've been in the church for a whole hell of a long time and put up with a lot of bullshit when I was in the church. And so, yeah, I feel like I have a there. And what I saw in the 40th celebration is more of the same stuff that I saw in the last celebration. If they do the same theme every time, it's just different. Different. Different configurations of it, but it's the same stuff that I see every single time. So, you know, what I thought would have been.

Darron Smith [00:38:17] I don't know if we're addressing, but I just wanted to say this about it. What would been so nice about this one? It's just an apology. How hard would it be to say we made. We screwed up, y'. All.

Darron Smith [00:38:30] I mean, look around. We too white, you know, we screwed up. We've offended our African, our black. Our black brothers and sisters. We've hurt. Harmed our black brothers and sisters. You know, and we want to say before we can really have a commemoration or a celebration, we need to set the record straight by apologies. Why not just start with that? It would have made that thing so much more to bomb, you know, if dude would have said that. But, you know, they just. Like I said, you talked about their image. They're so image conscious and clearly it's not working for them.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:03] There is more to it. Sorry, Please, Juliana, I want to let you finish. But there is, yes, there's the image, but someone. Interestingly, I'm not going to say names, but it's someone. A friend. A friend of mine. She's white, she's in the church. She's progressive, but she's very active. But she raised the point when we were talking about these things because she's open to talking.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:30] She's the right kind of people to be in the church right now, who kind of pushes the boundaries. But she brought up the fact that something that the church may actually be afraid of with the apology. It's not just the image. I mean, yes, there's the image, but is the liability issue.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:53] Because opening that door could possibly invite people for lawsuits. And how many people? How many people? You don't know. And under certain laws, they would be. They would have to, you know, settle or take care of it. I mean, it could open a door, a gate that is very, very scary for the church. But again, I mean, what do you do? You know, do you do what you preach or do you protect yourself and your assets?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:40:27] So, because, you know, I listened to Elder Oaks talk and he came close many times. Right. You know, they all talk about their. Which I know it's true, you know, that he was so touched and he cried when he heard the announcement. I have no doubt my mission president said the exact same thing to me post years ago when I served. And that when he received the news, he was driving on the freeway and he heard the news on the radio that the priesthood had been extended to everyone, people of color. He stopped the car, bawled because he always was so uncomfortable with it. I know this particular experience happened to many, many members, just like today. Yes, go ahead, go ahead.

Sean Carter [00:41:10] Heard that experience from many members. That's the same story, by the way, that Mitt Romney tells. Exactly.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:41:15] They all have the same. I don't dismiss the story, but if

Sean Carter [00:41:21] everybody has the same story. Was every Mormon in the car at that moment? Because think about it. That's ridiculous.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:41:31] Most people commute probably at that time when it wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] But just to be fair, Oakes wasn't in the car. He was shoveling with his son in his cabin.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:41:41] Yes. Yeah, I get it. The point was they were all stuffed, you know, and were just overcome with joy or whatever. But. And I accept that that's their own experience. What I haven't seen throughout this presentation or ever is have you ever taken a minute and thought about how people of color felt either at that moment or before? And what do you have to say to that? Or how do you acknowledge that? Because it's me, me, me and how I felt. And I was so overjoyed and. Okay, but you know what? It wasn't your problem.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] Okay. Yeah, well, and we'll cover that because they did talk about a lot of people's feelings.

Historical Racist Teachings and Church Disavowal

Sean Carter [00:42:24] So a couple. A couple.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] Someone to say something.

Sean Carter [00:42:27] Well, let me get just one second about this. And I don't know, Sean, mitigate that issue. But here's, here's what's strange about that comment to me is that Oak said it himself. He said he accepted the words of the prophets and was okay with the ban. He was going to support it. He didn't like it, but he was going to support it because the word of God. And then it changes the next day. And now he is weeping for something that he never cared about in the first place. You see, I'm saying.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] So he said. He said, I observe. I've got a quote here. I observed the pain and frustration experienced by those who suffered and these restrictions and those who criticized them and sought for reasons. I studied the reasons then being given. And could not feel confirmation of the truth of any of them. So basically, Bruce R. McConkie's justifications. Joseph Fielding Smith, Brigham Young. He's saying he never bought any of what his fellow apostles or prophets were saying. And then he says, as part of my prayerful study, I learned that in general, the Lord rarely gives reasons for the commandments of Jerusalem. He gives to his servants.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] And so this is a key theme. I determined to be loyal to our prophetic leaders and to pray as promised from the beginning of these restrictions. That the day would come when all would enjoy the blessings of priesthood and temple. So he's basically saying he never bought any of the reasons. But the Lord doesn't give reasons. And so he just prayed that the restriction would be lifted. What do you guys think about that?

Darron Smith [00:43:51] Basically, I'm gonna throw you under the bus.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] Okay.

Darron Smith [00:43:55] I'm gonna throw you under the bus. And again, I mean, to me, it just says. It says to me very plainly that the church never had a place for black people. The presence of blacks in the church had to push the church to do things and make concessions like most white organizations. But the church had no interest in black people. They didn't contemplate about what to do about black people. And they thought. They have. No hint. No, they have. From an organizational standpoint. They feel like they don't have any. That question you asked earlier, Juliana, is a really good question that we hope we dive into a little bit.

Darron Smith [00:44:26] But to me, it's smacks of empathy, right? Being able to understand another person's pain, another person's suffering. And I think that in large part for a lot of white Americans, as it pertains to people of color, African Americans in particular, they have no empathy for people of color, for black. Black people. And that's something they've inherited from their friends and family and society at large.

Darron Smith [00:44:50] And that might be one reason that I think that we get such. These. Like what you said before, John. And I hope the listeners really took that in. What he's saying here, What Oakes is saying about these teachings and the impact that it had on him is significant. So for me, he's saying.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] He's saying he had empathy. He cried. He just didn't believe the excuses. Are you not buying it?

Darron Smith [00:45:18] You know, here's, here's the thing, man. You know, at some point, you got to stand up for justice. You got to stand up for truth. And what he's saying to me is he understood, you know, that some of the stuff that was being taught was not consistent with what he felt should, you know, should be right or should be, you know, should be more. More followed in the church. Although he didn't phrase it like that. But then you have to act on that. The loyalty thing. You come in with the loyalty pledge, you know, to kiss the ring thing.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:45:51] Do you think that President Kimball was bothered enough to do something about it?

Darron Smith [00:45:56] I think he was pressured into it.

Sean Carter [00:46:00] What folks is saying is, is that I didn't buy any of those reasons, but the fact that the restriction was in place meant that there must have been another good reason. That I just don't know yet. But God, like black people till 1978. All right, I'm confident on that. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] This is, this is what it. This is what I hear him saying. I hear him sort of pinning it on God. And he's basically saying that. He's basically saying that God doesn't give excuses to God, just gives commandments and it's our job to obey God. And so basically he's just saying that. He's just saying that it was God's commandment. So he followed God's commandment.

Darron Smith [00:46:37] How convenient for him, right?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:46:39] Yes. It doesn't make sense at all. Because why would God enlighten so many other people before the Mormon Church and not them, if they're supposed to be leading in the number one church, you know, God's church only through church on the earth. Why would God give to the only one church on the earth, the last, you know, be the last to do the right thing, and everybody else before them already did it. Like, that's not very inspired, is it?

Darron Smith [00:47:05] No, it's not. It's not.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] But he's saying God works in mysterious ways. We don't understand God's ways.

Darron Smith [00:47:12] You know what, though? You know what? Let's cut to the chase and get to what the real issue is about. It's about white supremacy, right? We're talking about God as if we're really talking about deity. We're not. We're talking. We're not talking about that. We're talking about a man who's interpreting God through the prism of a white lens that happens to be a white male lens. And all the experiences that he had, he's had in his life. That's what we're talking about. And we're conflating these two. These two terms. I wish we quit using God. I want to use God the way that Juliana used God.

Darron Smith [00:47:43] Use God. I don't see God that way. I just don't see deity as being this author of confusion over this kind of stuff. I think that as humans, we're left. We have to work it out, figure out a way to work this stuff out. But we can't quit. We have to quit relying on, I guess, this sort of idea that God did it and God's gonna fix it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:48:07] I just don't buy it's an easy way out. Works in mysterious way. You know, it's always.

Sean Carter [00:48:16] But here's the thing.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:48:17] When it's convenient.

Sean Carter [00:48:20] But I have. I have some sympathy with the church here. Here's why I say so is that. And even in Oaks somewhat alluded to it, he talked about how once the church got the revelation in 70, it moved forward, which is not exactly true. All right. But that the members kind of lagged behind.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:48:37] Yeah. He went on at the time, move forward.

Darron Smith [00:48:40] What now, Sean, you said move forward. What?

Sean Carter [00:48:42] All of our, you know, restrictions on race, immediately we melded the congregations together. You know, he kind of moved like, you know, the church moved quickly, but the members kind of dragged their feet behind. And he talked about specifically how members, you know, really hadn't changed in heart and mind, and it took them longer to come along. I think the truth of the matter is this, is that the church, for all of its mantra about mantle, what the church most often does is it draws the bullseye around the arrow. What the members decide to do is what the church then makes doctrine. So why the Word of Wisdom, for instance?

Sean Carter [00:49:20] Only the parts of the Word of Wisdom the members are willing to accept became part of the Word of Wisdom. Now, the part about, you know, the meat members weren't willing to give up those cheeseburgers. So they said, hey, we'll leave that out as option. Okay?

Sean Carter [00:49:34] And we see that with here, where I think what the church did was. The truth of the matter is this. Members of the church might have leadership, might have thought before 1978 that we should move forward. But they knew their membership wasn't ready.

Sean Carter [00:49:49] They'll say, God, the timing is off. Yeah, the timing is off. Members aren't ready for this. They're not going to accept it. And you're moving along slowly, but the church can't claim that it was after 1978. It changed all of its racist doctrine, because one, it never repudiated the reasons. Right. Valiance, the curse. They were teaching members that all the way through into the 21st century. I got into the church in 2011, and the handbook, one of the youth handbooks, discouraged interracial dating. This is in 2011.

Darron Smith [00:50:28] Wow.

Sean Carter [00:50:30] You know, and it basically said, you should get with people who are equally yoked, so you should date within your socioeconomic circle, within your racial group.

Darron Smith [00:50:38] This is in 2011. Publication.

Sean Carter [00:50:40] Absolutely. Might be still in there now, John, you know what I'm talking about.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Yeah. I think Sarah's showed us that there's some of that stuff that's either only recently been removed or is still there for sure.

Sean Carter [00:50:53] Yeah.

Darron Smith [00:50:53] Looked around the church that way of

Sean Carter [00:50:57] saying that, you know, there's a symbiotic relationship here, right. Where the membership, the church, the leaders say, we're in charge and we're running the bus. But the truth of the matter is, what they try to do is figure out what the members are willing to accept and then say, these are the rules, because compliance is important. And they know the members will not comply if they don't agree. So the greatest example when John taught me this, was the birth control restriction. So apostle gets up in the 70s, says, we're not going to do birth control anymore. The members say, yeah, right. Have that restriction anymore.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] That happened with oral sex, too. Spence W. Kimmel said, no more oral sex. Everyone revolted in the early 80s. And within six months, that was changed.

Darron Smith [00:51:39] Yeah.

Sean Carter [00:51:40] And so, yeah, the members are loyal to a point, but they will at some point. And so if the argument might be that if they had tried in 1965 to put down this restriction, the members would have said no, or, sorry they had tried to, you know, we're not letting them in the temple.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:51:56] Yeah, there is internal pushbacks. There is internal pushbacks, but there is also social pushbacks. And this is what we're seeing now, too. And eventually, you know, it gets. It's like polygamy. And I believe it's the same thing. Like, at some point, the church has to choose between are we gonna keep looking weird or are we gonna be accepting, like, others? And it's usually the last minute, the last minute where it's like, okay, are we gonna retreat in the mountains and be our own, you know, weird people like the flds, or do we still want to be mainstream and accepted by the rest of the world? Which, you know, we're not. We're not from this world. But they do care about being accepted by the world they don't want to be a part of, which is completely a weird thing.

Darron Smith [00:52:42] Let me ask you. Well, down here, because down here, Mormons aren't looked that kind. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt anybody who said Mormons down in this region of the country don't look favorably upon Mormons. And south.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:53:00] And in the rest of the world, too. I mean, it's. I mean, yes, overall, you know, people are starting to make a distinction between, you know, we're not AFLBs or whatnot, but we're still kind of weird. And the church, I think, battles with that. You know, how weird can we be in. Some were completely, you know, cut off, and they don't want to be cut off. And they have. You know, as we know, they are everywhere in economics, I mean, finance and governments and everything, and they do not. They would not benefit from being cut off completely. They act. Sometimes they act like they are, and they want to, but the reality is they don't want to.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] Let me ask you guys this, Sean, if it's all right, I really want to hear. In Oaks talk, he says after the restriction was lifted, He said the reasons that had been given to try to explain the prior restrictions on members of African ancestry, even those previously voiced by revered church leaders, were promptly and publicly disavowed. Is that true?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:54:11] No.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Did the church promptly and publicly disavow all the past racist statements made by apostles and prophets? Juliana First. Juliana first, yeah.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:54:25] The only disavow that I know that was public and heard even. Not even that public, because it was really subtle, the way they did it. It's just a few years ago, that's the first time they ever disavowed anything. Like, I've never heard of disavowing whatsoever. Like, they just. Yeah, they came up with the policy. Everybody can have it. I don't recall anyone. I mean, I've been in the church my whole life. Like, I'm still officially a member. To come back to your question, do I have a voice in here? Well, I'm still. I'm still not. I'm not. I'm still in the church. Like, officially, I don't go, but still.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:55:00] So anyways, my whole life in the church, and I've been everywhere. I wasn't just in my little Belgium. I was on Salt Lake. I worked for the church. I read probably most talks than most people because I was with CES and whatnot. I have not heard or seen any leaders. And tell me people who are listening send me information If I'm wrong, because I could perfectly be wrong or too young, that I didn't hear it, but I've never heard of any disavowing of, you know, anything close to what he did, to what Elder Oaks said today that, you know, I didn't feel good about what the other.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:55:39] On the pulpit. Right. I'm not talking about people's opinion. I'm talking on the pulpit, General conference, you know, conference talk. Someone saying, I never felt right about what was said about people of color or written. Like, I haven't seen anywhere, aside from the subtle, you know, little disavowing that, you know, came out because people were digging and shared through social media, but that was not even shared.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] I think what matters in your case, Juliana, and in everyone's case is did you ever hear. Because you certainly were a member during that whole time, and you're saying in none of your experiences in the church, did you ever hear this comprehensive apology for racist justifications given by prophets that are apostles? Is that right, Juliana?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:56:23] Absolutely. Individual people, not the leaders on the pulpit or in General conference talk, which. That's public. If you're gonna say public. That's what it means.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] Darren, how about you? You're next. Darren.

Darron Smith [00:56:36] I've never heard any. Any apology from any.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:56:39] Any.

Darron Smith [00:56:39] Any official gatherings where leadership would talk and put forth such information. Never heard it. Never.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:56:46] Not even apology, but just even saying it, like disavowing that. Disavowing.

Darron Smith [00:56:51] No, no, no. Really?

Sean Carter [00:56:52] No.

Darron Smith [00:56:52] Really. No conversation to really any degree at all.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] Okay, Sean, you're next. If you.

Sean Carter [00:57:00] Bruce Armacott in August 18, 1978.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] To who? To who?

Sean Carter [00:57:06] BYU.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] It was to. It was the BYU, like CES or professors.

Sean Carter [00:57:13] And very famous quote which says, forget everything that I have said or what Brigham said about the band, basically. He didn't say we were wrong, by the way. He just simply said, forget that stuff. There may have been another reason, but that's different than, you know, go through the world and then reteach this. Although he's talking to P.S. the thought is that it should have trickled down, right?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:57:32] That's not public enough to me. Like, if you got to talk to one little group of people, that's not a worldwide.

Sean Carter [00:57:39] I agree. I agree 100% that certainly. Here's how, you know, they didn't do enough is because we were all taught this racist stuff at some point, right? So certainly they. The message, the memo didn't get all the way out.

Darron Smith [00:57:53] And the contradictions, too, guys, in terms of. In terms of the theology of it itself, you know, the church teaches, you know, faith repentance through. You know, when you do something wrong, you make restitution. You go and you apologize and you read. And that's something that they're supposed to be putting forward as an organization, but they've not done that when it comes to. Well, nothing that any fringe organization or fringe issue that would challenge their perception of the world, they're not going to do it. Go ahead, Darren.

Sean Carter [00:58:25] The bottom line is that the church is based and rooted in white supremacy. That is so blatantly. And here's the thing is they almost can't back out of it. You know, I'll give you an example. Recently we got our first. First apostles of color.

Sean Carter [00:58:45] And until that point, here was. My argument was that every Mormon, white Mormon, before that point should have been racist. And here's why. Because we're chosen to emulate Christ. We're supposed to try to be what Christ is. Right up until that point, Christ had chosen a hundred white men apostles in a row, according to the theology. Right. Christ was a white supremacist. According to the theology. He looked all over the world's churches and could not find but white men as the important part. So of course the members should be racist if they're trying to. If you're trying to emulate Christ and Christ always picks white men, why wouldn't you always pick white men in your business to be your doctor, to be your lawyer?

White Supremacy Embedded in Mormon Culture

Sean Carter [00:59:25] Why would you be stupid and not be like Christ? The entire church has so much white supremacy built in it. Right. The first thing you do when you become a Mormon is you get two or three shades lighter. I don't know how dark you were before we started.

Darron Smith [00:59:42] I think I've lightened up a little bit since I've been a member of that.

Sean Carter [00:59:44] Yeah. Dare you. When you went to church there, you like Steph Curry.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:59:52] I don't know if you should laugh about that or not. It's a joke.

Darron Smith [00:59:56] I didn't think about that. You know, the Lord did bless me and give me two shades lighter. Lighter skin.

Sean Carter [01:00:05] Yeah, yeah. And you'd come back and. No, in seriousness, it's like, I totally understand. I shouldn't say I don't ever justify it, but. But, you know, once you get so much of that, of that theology in you, et cetera, it's very difficult, all right, to pull all the parts out. Okay, well. Because anybody had to say all this time, all right, we apologize for this thing, but the Lord's still gonna keep picking white man for the next 40 years. All right, we're gonna apologize for this, but our law firm is gonna be all white people for the next hundred years. And all of our doctors are gonna be white people. You know, it's like it's so ingrained in everything in the church that if you pull out this one thread, you know, it's like they're pulling the thread, right, or the whole thing collapses.

Darron Smith [01:00:50] I was gonna. Allow me to underscore this. I don't want to. I don't want to take any more time, but let me allow just to kind of underscore. If you look back at some of the earlier writings of the so called founding fathers in this country, right, it's apparent of their hatred for anything other than white male property owner. That includes women, people of color, lower status whites. There's even comparisons between the height of cemetery pillars. More. If you had more fluent, you had it in the 1600s and 17th century. The higher the pillar, the more. The more status. The lower the pillar, the less status.

Darron Smith [01:01:27] So that stuff was like you said, literally built into the system. Literally. Same sex marriages, lgtbq stuff that a lot of stuff you deal with, John, that we all deal with. None of that stuff was conceived of. When these white men came over here, pillaged and stole and took land and stole people's theft to build up the coffers of this nation off the backs of black people. They didn't conceive of any of this stuff. And so now we're playing catch up. And we continue to make the same damn mistakes, putting the same people in positions of power when we know good and well they've already been inculcated by white supremacy.

Darron Smith [01:02:10] You have to go through a process of cleansing. I don't want to say it in a spiritual, mystical sort of way, but you really have to come to. You have to learn to be woke. And it's hard to learn to be woke because when you woke, you start leaving. Friends start leaving you. You don't start getting invited to that turkey dinner. You become the oddball out. You become an outlier. If you read Malcolm Gladwell's book, you become an outlier.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:02:35] I think Jen knows what that feels.

Darron Smith [01:02:36] I think that's what we are. We're outliers. We don't fit into the narrative.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:02:40] I think Jen knows what that feels like, to be an outlier. Not in the sense that you describe, but, you know, to be rejected by your own. I want to say. I do want to say something for the people of Carlo that are still in the church, people like Gladys Knight, who, you know, we may have whatever opinion we want of her. I've actually met her. She's a wonderful woman. Woman. She has a huge heart and I admire her for how much she's pushed the boundaries.

Darron Smith [01:03:09] Oh yeah.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:03:10] I mean I met her a couple of years after she joined the church. Her family was there and she's gotten a lot of bad press for it. Right. To be a woman that's a white church and she's heard it all. And I like how, you know, she's her own person and she does her. I do appreciate how she's been able to, to push the boundaries within the Mormon church. And as long as she has strength and energy to do so, she's helping so many people to just open up, loosen up, you know, embrace others ways of doing things, which I mean 20 years, like a Protestant choir sitting where the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, you know, stands with, you know, the moment she got there, she did not let go of her style of preaching that she got from the South.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:04:06] I remember the first time she addressed the sisters, you know, back in 99, I was serving on Temple Square. I took her and her whole family on a tour on Temple Square. She was meeting with

Darron Smith [01:04:17] pictures. You got some pictures.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:04:19] You know, I did take some pictures with her. I lost them. I remember. It doesn't matter. I remember she hold my hands throughout the whole hour. She was holding my hand throughout and just was just so happy. And the church does bring joy to people. The church does bring a lot of goodness to people who maybe couldn't find it elsewhere. We're not discussing that and I don't want to ever discuss that. But this is not the point of our discussion here. But what I want to say is I am happy for, you know, not just the people of color, but progressive people within the church who are woke, who know about all these things, who are, for whatever reason, you know, they've chosen to stay.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:05:04] And I respect that. For me it became too uncomfortable because I'm too mouthy and I don't know, I had too many issues, but it's a hard thing. I have friends in the church that you know, struggle, but their, their families there and they do not want to.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:05:22] And for them to bring, you know, to help push those boundaries and even if it's little inch at the time. But I think you can see that, you can see that in that presentation, that program, you could see that, you could feel it.

Darron Smith [01:05:41] Here's my only, here's my only caveat. I'm sorry, Julia. Here's my only caveat with that, and I agree with you. That was a beautiful utterance of what I used to say when I was, you know, when I was trying to make sense of my experience in the church and why others would stay. It comes at a hell of a price to your health. Hell of a price to your health.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:06:02] For some.

Darron Smith [01:06:03] Your health. Your health. Take it. Yes, yes.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:06:06] But for me, it did, because that's why I'm not in. Because I. Mentally, I can't.

Sarah Newcomb [01:06:11] It's.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:06:11] The cognitive dissonance is too much. But for some, it's different. You know, they have a different experience.

Darron Smith [01:06:17] That's very true.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:06:18] And I respect that.

Gladys Knight, Joy, and Representation at BeOne

Sean Carter [01:06:20] Juliana, when you talked about Joy, and this is the thing that got me when I was looking at the video, and I love this. When Gladys Choir was there and it was some African Americans and even some white members, did you notice how much everybody was smiling during the.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:06:35] Absolutely.

Sean Carter [01:06:37] At conference? I was like. I wanted almost every member to see. This was like, you know what? This does not have to be a funeral dirge every Sunday. This is not, you know, mumbling thing, you know, and that you can actually enjoy the music.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:06:56] It's different stuff. Especially.

Darron Smith [01:06:58] You got Gladys Knight. You got Gladys Knight leading. It mean.

Sean Carter [01:07:02] Yeah, but you. But, you know, here's the thing is you don't need all of, like, Gladys. I remember one time someone was talking to me about the Motab and how wonderful they are, and I said, I understand that you realize that every black church can replicate that with two.

Sean Carter [01:07:18] With two, you know, sisters and a gay choir director. Right? We can do this. We don't need those kind of numbers. And the point is, we could enjoy this every Sunday. How about this? I say this. Let people who can't sing clap. That's what we do in the black church. Every black person can't sing. We like to pretend that. But I can't carry tune, you know, in a Louis Vuitton case, all right? I can't carry a tune at all. But guess what I can do.

Sean Carter [01:07:45] I can clap. I can participate. And if we would allow that type of thing in our church, because I don't think the Lord would be offended by clapping. I imagine the Lord be less offended by clapping than he would be.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] Actually. If I remember right, the members of that event were given permission to clap. They basically said, this is a celebration. And so because it's a celebration, you are allowed to clap. Let me ask you guys.

Darron Smith [01:08:13] There was a lot of noise in there. There was a lot of noise in there. That music, in fact, I hope she's selling that music.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [01:08:18] But either way, sorry. Even when she speaks, when Gladys Ned speaks, I remember one of her speeches, speeches, she comes with such vibrancy. She comes with such, you know, Southern energy that you want, you want to say amen and alleluias. You know, like people want to stand up. And in fact, people did clap and did, like express themselves because she has that energy and she brings it, she carries it over wherever she goes and she talks about it. When she went into the interview, what you said, Sean, she said the same thing. She's like, hey, I'm not gonna. I'm going to do my thing, you know, I'm going to. And she's like, follow me. Don't follow me with that. I'm going to be me here among you. And she stuck to it and I love it.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 943

Darron Smith [00:00:18] I was going to mention this to you, you know, and you say that, you know, because I was there too. I mean, I was a, I considered myself a progressive Mormon. I was there. You know, the worst thing that ever happened to me, I think, was becoming a scholar. I was one. Didn't Packer say scholars and somebody else would have bane of the church's existence? Well, I think he was right, at least in terms of the scholarship piece. But I think as I became, as I journeyed through, you know, my blackness and trying to understand what it means to be black from my experience, you know, I lost the compatibility with the church in terms of, in terms of, you know, feeling like this church is.

Darron Smith [00:00:54] I'm already marginalized. Why don't want to go to my church and get marginalized? I don't want to do, I don't want to do that. But I'm happy for those who are in the fight because I've met a lot of, a lot of young people like my folks who are older than I am now. It's interesting to look back and see these younger folks where I was, you know, 20 years ago. And then you want to tell them, you know, you know, you know, tell them this is what, you know, given that they have to learn that journey on their own. You know, they have to learn.

Darron Smith [00:01:20] But I want to be there to help guide them, that they need help. I don't want to alienate them and turn them away, but I want to guide them and give them some, give them some, maybe some mentorship. I am writing a piece right now I'm excited about. This is for the 40th anniversary. I was invited to do this for dialogue. I'm going to look at the different ways that blacks experience, deal with stress, the stresses of having to conform to people who want to touch your hair or the stresses of people making remarks about your skin tone or stupid stuff like that. And I want to say this, you guys, and I'm giving these white folks the benefit of the doubt.

Darron Smith [00:01:55] I think they're well intentioned. They're just ignorant. They're just ignorant. And when you hear it over and over again, it starts to cut. It starts to cut at you a little bit. So I want to talk about what black people do in response to those kinds of moments. Some of it is very interesting. So that should be dropping here soon.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:02:16] We'll keep our ear open for that. That's very interesting.

Sean Carter [00:02:21] Can I ask you guys a question?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:02:23] Sure.

Sean Carter [00:02:24] How did you feel about the pageantry, the, you know, who's the Guy who came out singing kind of African. Whenever they bring Alex Boyer out to sing kind of African music. How does that make you? How does that make you? Each one? So, Juliana, you first.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:02:44] All right. So I think from an artistic point, I think it's very refreshing for the church to have things like that happening among themselves. Like, just from an artistic point, you know, he's also done, you know, at a different level what Gladys Knight has done, I think, at a bigger level because she, you know, she speaks and whatnot, but just infusing some of that, you know, other culture needs to be seen and heard and whatnot. But, I mean, as far as the presentation, of course there were beautiful people. Of course it was emotionally touching, and I was teary eyes watching those beautiful people on stage.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:21] But it reminded me of when I served on Temple Square. So I was a missionary on Temple Square. And Europeans would come to Temple Square, and they're not very religious. Like, you know, they're interested. They're very, you know, they look around and they want to know. They want the knowledge. But they're like, this is like Christian Walt Disney, right? Like, you have to try to make a SCRY at every corner. What's going on with that? You know, and that's a different perspective. And again, to come back to your first question, like, you know, as an inactive member of the church, who's been in the church my whole life still, because it's very recent that I left, why do I feel like I can say something?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:03:57] Well, I think it's important to look at how people see you, because when you inside, you see a certain way and you block yourself, right? Because you get so easily offended if people don't see like you. I think. I hope that not just, you know, progressive Mormon will listen to this, but if any, you know, active member listen to this, I just want to say it's important.

Sean Carter [00:04:27] Juliana, you broke up. Can you repeat that? You said it's important. What?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:04:31] It's important to try to understand how other people see you and from the outside and not to pull you out or whatever, but, like, don't be so close to, you know, if it doesn't come from, you know, don't listen to it because it's gonna be wrong. Like, I feel like I can see. I still speak fluent Mormon. I still know the language very well, but I also see from the outside. And, you know, the reason I'm asking

Sean Carter [00:05:02] is because when some of the songs are being sung from Africa, it reminds me. It confuses me because it reminds me of Lion King. And it reminds me of the Book of Mormon musical where they make fun of the Lion King sometimes.

Darron Smith [00:05:18] Gonna say that.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:05:19] Yeah, but it was gonna say that.

Sean Carter [00:05:21] So, Darren, what about you? When you see Alex Boyer singing African music with his face painted, I go ahead and speak. Because people couldn't see you.

Darron Smith [00:05:30] I just wasn't. I just wasn't feeling that.

Sean Carter [00:05:32] Why not?

Darron Smith [00:05:33] Part of it. I wasn't feeling the. The narrative. This narrative that these people, you know, found the gospel. And it's the same narrative every freaking time. Every time they have one of these things that's the same.

Sean Carter [00:05:47] What's wrong with that narrative? What's wrong with the narrative?

Darron Smith [00:05:50] The narrative is that Africans found the church because of a letter that was sent by somebody over in one of the tribes there to bring Book of Mormons and blah, blah, blah. So you get that one narrative. Then you got. You got two main ones. The Jane Manning James story, how she wanted to have her. She wanted her blessing that bad and all that. So for 94. She died when she's 95. 94, whatever. Then you get the other one by Elijah Abel. Those are the three. The three black people. They hold up. That's it. I get so sick. Then the other stuff is African. African. And then they got. Then you got a couple of, you know, you got a couple of confused people of color in there, and they're confused.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:06:32] Darren, you're being mean.

Sean Carter [00:06:36] So tell us what's wrong. Darren, tell us what's wrong with the reemergence of the continual reappearance of Elijah Abel, she, Jane Manning James, Alex Boyer singing Lion King, like, songs. What's wrong with that from your perspective?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:06:51] Because there's only, like.

Darron Smith [00:06:52] I think it exoticizes black people. I think it exoticizes black people. I think it minimizes the pain that black people are suffering. I don't think there's enough dialogue and discussion about that. There's too much food, fun, and festivities. And that's generally what the church does when it's trying to highlight these sensitive issues. It's like, sing, let's dance, have some food, and so. And so. But let's not really talk about the issues. Right. So basically, make me comfortable again. We're back to whiteness. Make me comfortable. We're gonna do this on my terms if we're gonna do it.

Guest [00:07:26] Sean, you know, getting to that. Now, as far as Boyer, I'm gonna say this, that Boyer also does that same thing when he was on America's Got Talent, so. So that is his normal thing, is to bring in his African influences. I'm not gonna fault the brother for that. With regard to the. And Manning story and those being the two Mormons to hold up as sort of, you know, in the Mormon. I guess it would be in the black Mormon trinity.

Sean Carter [00:07:58] Right?

Guest [00:07:59] And the thing about those two wonderful brothers and sisters are, is that that's one way to handle the church's racism. I want to see third brother. I want to see the Darren Smith version where you say, you know, I'm

Darron Smith [00:08:13] gonna go get my.

Sean Carter [00:08:15] Right.

Guest [00:08:16] I want to see Martin. Martin, But I want to see Malcolm, too. All right? And their stories are so.

Darron Smith [00:08:21] But you got that, though. You got that in with. They always show Darius Gray, right? Darius Gray is always the. He's somewhere in the mix. Same people all the time.

Guest [00:08:34] But he's not Malcolm in that story, is he?

Darron Smith [00:08:37] I mean, he's. He's a storyteller. He's narrating his experience before the 1978 revelation.

Guest [00:08:44] Right? But I want to see the brother who says, you know what? I wouldn't join this damn racist church until they change 78. Right? That's what I'm talking about. Right? I want to see the brother who, you know, because, you know, those, like I said, are wonderful, faithful stories, but, like, Manning stories, I got to tell you, to me, it's always depressing. I'm never inspired by the woman who spent her whole life going through a dream that they never gave her. You can't make that. How do Disney people, you know, as Mormons come up with that? You know, think about this. The Mormon Disney crowd would only sell that story to us as black people because they damn sure wouldn't allow that story for them.

Darron Smith [00:09:19] Yeah. I mean, Sean, to me, when I hear somebody say, she asked, dude four or five times, can go to the temple before she died. I'd have left the damn server. I'd be like, man, out. I'm out.

Guest [00:09:31] Right?

Darron Smith [00:09:33] I'm not gonna spend my time. I'm not gonna cast my pearls before swine. These folks are not interested in me. They don't want me in their presence. And so I'm gonna go find me a community where I can at least, you know, have some semblance of freedom. Right? And at least have people treat me like I'm a damn human being.

Guest [00:09:52] Yeah. And so now I got to tell you the one thing I felt positive about.

Sean Carter [00:09:55] Sean, really quick, before we jump on from J. Manny James, there's a quote that I heard today that's attributed to her where she's, like, going her Whole life not being accepted into the temple. She wants her temple blessings. She's worried about being sealed. And she basically says towards the end of her life, in frustration, I'm white with the exception of the color of my skin. And she's basically trying to say, come on, people. I'm doing all I can to be white. Why won't you let me in?

Darron Smith [00:10:25] And I'm just thinking, john, that's problematic. I know, and that's what I was trying to say.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:10:32] That's horrible.

Darron Smith [00:10:35] Black people, we want to be like white people so bad. Some of us do. Right. That we'll do anything to be like black people. Right. It's like white folks. And that has pathological, you know, issues for us down the road when we try to act like and be like white people on their terms. You're never gonna be white. Right. And you're never gonna be accepted by white people. I don't care what you. Who you look like or what you sound like, whatever, where you went to school.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:11:03] I have a hard time with that concept, but maybe because I'm not African American, but, like, precisely. But I have a hard time with even understanding what that means.

Darron Smith [00:11:13] Precisely.

Sean Carter [00:11:14] Precisely with what, Juliana? With what understanding what means?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:11:17] I just don't understand what that means.

Sean Carter [00:11:19] Which one?

Darron Smith [00:11:20] She grew up in a.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:11:21] She trying to be a white. What does that mean, trying to be white? Like, trying to not be like a person from the ghetto. Trying to not be like someone from a trailer. Because, I mean, I don't know what that means. Because there is good and bad in. I mean, give me someone from a ghetto. Give me someone from a trailer park that's white or black. I don't want to be like any of them. What does that mean, trying to be white?

Darron Smith [00:11:42] Well, these are.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:11:43] These.

Diverging Cultural Perspectives on Race in the Church

Darron Smith [00:11:43] Okay, first of all, in all fairness, Julienna, there are two different cultural perspectives we're bringing into this discussion, right? And what the audience is seeing in us is iterations, different iterations of blackness. Right? So what you and me and Sean all share in common is we are oppressed peoples, right? Whether we believe it or not,

Sean Carter [00:12:07] we're

Darron Smith [00:12:08] oppressed peoples, marginalized peoples. You grew up in an island nation where all you saw were your presidents were black and your people were black.

Sean Carter [00:12:19] If you had. If you had.

Darron Smith [00:12:21] He said, if you have. If you've grown up in an island nation or a nation where you've seen black people who've risen to high levels of status and so on, and you come over here, you're going to see it differently. You're Going to see. Why are all these black people complaining? They got it great over here if they just work hard enough. Look at all this opportunity.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:12:43] Yes. Not like that. I don't think like that. But it's true that when I had to get. I had to better understand the concept of. Of course you're a minority, but if you had grown up where I grew up in Belgium, like where there's hardly no black people. Like, when I came here, I landed in D.C. and I'm like, am I in Africa? Because I had never seen so many black, you know, black people around. But again, it's, it's, it's. I can't compare. It's a different culture story because at the same time, I was just about always the only black person in my environment in Belgium. But we also never talk about color over there.

Guest [00:13:23] Yeah.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:13:23] It's not a non topic. Right. Like hair color, skin color, eye color, same thing. Like, it's just not. So it's a very American thing. And that's why when I, I get uncomfortable sometimes when I hear that, oh, they're trying to be white, I'm like, what does that mean? Like, you know, you are.

Darron Smith [00:13:41] I mean, I mean, the Belgians, I mean, the Belgians can't escape their racial fast either with King Leopold.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:13:46] Yes.

Darron Smith [00:13:46] But they certainly can't escape their racist fast.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:13:48] Absolutely. It's awful in the Congo, what happened there. It's absolutely terrible. I think it's beyond, or you can't compare to evil, but the scope of it is much larger than what happened in slavery. The scope of it is way larger.

Darron Smith [00:14:07] I mean, I mean, I try to tell, I try to tell people this because they often say, well, you know, why these Africans don't get. Africans don't understand. Yeah, they don't, they don't understand African American.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:14:17] It's, it's a different, we have different stories to tell. And I respect your story. I am actually from, you know, my ancestry is from the Congo. And I am pissed at, you know, I'm pissed at Belgium for not even. I learned, you know, the depths of the story as an adult when I read King Leopold. And because none of that was taught in my schools, I never learned about that. They kept it well, you know, packaged. And I went to all these museums and beauty and royalty things in Belgium that were built on the death of, you know, my people, you know, and I'm, I'm really upset about that.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:14:55] And people are, you know, talking about it and trying to do things, but it is what it is. But yes, again, Unfortunately, John, it is the white man who went and raped, you know, the black continent. But I mean. But it's a different story. But as far as.

Darron Smith [00:15:11] Don't you find it interesting that that story, I mean, cut you off? But I want to say this before I forget. Don't you find it interesting that that story of race is so salient here? Compare in comparison to Belgium or some of the other places where you've been in Europe, where maybe race might be a conversation, but it's certainly not a fixation the way that it's been over here in this country.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:15:35] Yes, but it's still, I believe it's newer, right? America is newer compared to Europe. Right. It's a newer land. And you have people alive who testify of the hurt and the pain. And you have people that are living as, you know, with Africa.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:15:55] I mean, it happens in the 1800s, but then it's. The people stay there. There is a few here, they didn't import them. They just went there and raped them there on their own land. For the most part, the ones who came afterwards is due to, you know, they co. Mingle. There's still a lot of white people in the Congo and they live there. And, you know, they're trying the best they can to, you know, they're always nice. Like the Belgians are always nice to the Congolese because they know what they've done, you know. Yeah, there's this weird relations, kind of like India and England they have.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:16:25] But here it's. The tension is. I mean, there. We cannot say that there hasn't been progress in the U.S. right? I mean, you've had a black president. That shows that, you know.

Darron Smith [00:16:35] Well, get me started on that, Julianne. Okay, but it's not. I'm a social scientist, so I want to see the data. I want to see the data.

Sean Carter [00:16:44] Let me just. Because I want to make sure we. This is great. Let me ask you guys a question about something that. So, Darren, you mentioned Elijah Abel, Jane Manning, James, you mentioned Darius Gray. There was the story about Nigeria, Ghana, Jamaica, Brazil. And this is something that I noticed. Why were those stories picked by the script writers for the B1 celebration? It wasn't because they were courageous necessarily. It wasn't because they followed their conscience. It wasn't because they spoke up and disagreed with things that they didn't like. The reason why all those stories were chosen as a part of the narration is because they remained faithful and obedient, even in face of all that adversity. Did you guys notice that? Did you Notice that. And how did you feel about that, Sean?

Guest [00:17:45] You're absolutely right. That was a selling point. That is always. When have you ever seen a conference story that didn't deal with exactly that issue? That is always the point of every conference story is at the end, pray, pay and obey, right? The end of every conference story is that this person stayed loyal. And this, you know, and this is the. So I'm not surprised about that. I do want to say as far as in telling the story, one thing I found interesting is they kind of Hamilton the first vision. And what I mean by that is they told the Joseph Smith story. They used African Americans to actually tell the story.

Guest [00:18:17] So sort of like what Hamilton does, right? Where you have black people being George Washington. And I thought that that was actually possibly a positive engagement, a positive development. Here's why I say that, is that I think one of the challenges the church has with breaking white supremacy is white Jesus.

Guest [00:18:36] The white Jesus on the wall that we know could not have looked like Jesus is such a, I think a emblematic portrait of the church like that. A church that, like I said, in the 21st century knows Jesus couldn't look like that, but still puts that Scandinavian Jesus on the wall to placate its members. Members. And I've talked to members about this who were absolutely convinced that Jesus was blonde, blue eyed and through for BYU through 400 yards.

Guest [00:19:09] Absolutely convinced this is some white boy. And I think, you know, the nice thing about seeing African Americans playing parts other than traditionally ascribed to us is that maybe that start to move into the larger functioning. But as far as the obedience, John, every church story is always going to be about obedience. You know that Darren.

Darron Smith [00:19:30] I just don't. I'm just not, I'm just. The obedience comes at a huge price to people's emotional mental health. So you can celebrate that and say, wow, this person really has long suffering.

Sean Carter [00:19:45] Darius.

Darron Smith [00:19:47] This person is a fool. This person is suffering from racial battle fatigue. So, you know, having to deal with white folks all these years to be told no, no, no, no, and what no, no, no, no means, you're a second class citizen, you're a second class citizen. And so I just think that at least, at least, you know, each his own. If you want to be, if you want to be a, you know, and we don't know often know how we respond to it. But I see it often, I see it a lot more in church. We've got a lot of, a lot of confused people of color, you know, and I want to.

Darron Smith [00:20:18] Julianne, I mean that in a. Not in a pejorative way. I'm just saying that they're trying to figure out where they fit in, in this, in the church. Racially, where do I fit in? We say that all are likened to God, yet I keep hearing, you know, I keep hearing lessons about how my ancestors were cursed by God or they couldn't, you know, they had to make a choice in free existence.

Darron Smith [00:20:43] Where do those black people, these progressives that you talk about that I was, find a place and a voice where we can have that. Those dialogues without feeling like we're being disloyal to the organization? We're feeling like the organization gonna sweep in, you know, and throw us up the shackles and throw us out. I mean, how do you get to get to that place? For me, I couldn't find. I couldn't find a voice. I couldn't find a community. I tried to find the Mormons for Social. So called Mormons for Social justice, and that was a disaster. That group is not about social justice. It's about social justice for white people.

Darron Smith [00:21:24] So you have to put the white people part in it, because that's what you're talking about. And the church was never meant for black people to begin with. So we have to reconcile that difference. The church was never meant as it was conceived in its earlier recollections and earlier formulations by the men who created it. Black people weren't a part of that discussion.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:21:45] So, Darren, so I hear what you're saying, and your experience is yours, and I respect it. Like, I cannot say for myself that I left the church because I felt racism. And I know I've gotten a lot of, you know, because of that, but that wasn't my experience and my story.

Darron Smith [00:22:02] So are you saying. So if you don't mind me asking you. So are you saying you haven't experienced interpersonal racism where you felt. Where someone has called you out your name or you've had personal strife with members of the church or members of your ward? At that level. Are you talking about it from that level? And then a personal level.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:23] Yeah, on a personal level. I mean, I've heard stories of people who have, and I don't disbelieve it. It's just my. It's just not my personal story.

Darron Smith [00:22:32] Sure. And you know what? You know what?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:36] Spoo. Hit.

Darron Smith [00:22:37] Your stories are valid, so I'm not gonna.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:43] And it doesn't mean yours is not true or my.

Darron Smith [00:22:46] Sure.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:22:47] It's just that the reason why I got too uncomfortable is because it's a bit what you're trying to explain, except it's not a color thing. It's where do I fit in? Because I don't think like this anymore. And I feel like I'm in a box. And I cannot be myself because I don't, you know, I can't disagree with the leadership. And that's. To me, that's just not acceptable. Like, well, you know, I have to be me. I have to be myself, and I have to. My conscience, you know,

Darron Smith [00:23:23] America. America is a racial oligarchy. So whether we think that we're not race is not a central component of. Of our daily interaction. It is. Whether we think it is or not, it is. It's happening at a subconscious level much of the time. It's dictating the kind of jobs you get, is dictating the kinds of experiences and opportunities that you have, whether you agree with it or not. There's too much damn data on it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:23:48] First and foremost, I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to disagree with you there. And I think because of where I maybe grew up, how I was raised, my experience in this world, I don't think that way. Like, I don't walk that way every day because that's just not what was my surrounding. And I. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm in denial or anything like that. I just don't walk my life, you know, thinking, you know, who's out to get me, or did they say to me. And sometimes it's blatant, right? One may ask me my hair or this or that, but I have learned to just answer or.

Darron Smith [00:24:27] Well, you find a lot. You find ways to cope, right?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:29] You run a lot, don't you run a lot. I don't know that it's coping because it doesn't hurt me inside.

Darron Smith [00:24:35] Aren't you a runner? Aren't you a runner?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:24:37] I do. I do run.

Darron Smith [00:24:38] Okay, so you find ways. So we're talking about. Listen, you're talking to a sociologist, so I'm gonna tell you, interpersonal racism is only one very small part of an enormous problem in this country. So if all you. So as you. If you feel that all your. All you. The point that you experience here really. You don't really experience racism much from an interpersonal standpoint. You have no idea how racism is impacting you structurally. You have no idea how it's impacting you, your family.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:12] But I didn't grow up here. I've been heard living here because it's every day, right? But if I don't live in America, I don't even have to think about it. I don't have to talk to my kids about it. I don't have, you know, this is very, very American, I must say, right?

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:25:33] It's painful. It's painful because I, I think it would be good and healthy for people to get past. I mean, to fix whatever is there to fix. You know, recognize the pain. Everyone learn new ways of being with each other so that you can move on and be in harmony. You know, just like when I was in Singapore and the Muslim and the Hindus and the Buddhists and whatever color, they just live in harmony and they don't talk about it, they don't just fight or whatever. Like the tension is just non existent because it's like, you know what, we are on the same land and we're just gonna live together and respect each other and it's just not a subject of conversation.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:26:16] That's what I'm trying to say. But again, it's due to a different history, a different culture. So the fact that I am not, I'm seeing, I'm not, you know, I'm not oblivious and I hear the news and I see what's going on and I get involved where I can, but I cannot appropriate, you know, a history that's not mine.

Sean Carter [00:26:34] Also Sean, really quick, let's get Sean in.

Guest [00:26:37] Sean, I'm gonna jump in here because Julienna is describing something that I think is it kind of shows the difference in Africa in people of color, particularly those of us, you know, African descent. Here's why is because Juliana's experience is probably, is much closer to mine. Darren's experience is maybe a little different. The church a little earlier than I did, than I did. But here's what I mean by this. I was treated wonderfully in my church. I was treated in my ward, I was treated in my ward in the Mormon church way nicer than I would ever be treated in my.

Guest [00:27:14] Because I was a local celebrity, you know, everyone in the state knew who we were. We were asked to speak at the first state conference. They allowed me, when I went to BYU to be in the presence of Sweden to meet the apostles.

Guest [00:27:25] I was the black Harvard guy, they got a black Harvard guy. I was treated wonderfully and individually people were very kind to me. But the problem is I could see the supremacy coming in, even affecting my children. So give me an example is this was never taught to my son. But my then 8 year old son asked me at one point, daddy, when do I Get to be white.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:27:46] Oh, wow.

Guest [00:27:47] That's ever taught, son. You're gonna get to be white. I think he got he. If I were ever to be a righteous man, to be on that stage, I would need to be white. If I were ever wonderful. I gotta tell you that one time my son got mad at me and said, I want a black, I want a white daddy. Wow, that's terrible on ChristianMingle.com and get a white man. And here's why I understood it. He made perfect sense. Let me explain. The white men in our church were very good to him as anyone the scouts, leaders, etc. As his father, my job isn't be so wonderful to him.

Guest [00:28:22] My job is to be his father and not his friend. So his association was. Every white man I know is wonderful and it's wonderful. Tends to sometimes yell at me about right. Those types of perceptions. Like I said, this isn't people being mean. It's the structure of the church creates it so that white men always turn out to be these wonderful, wonderful paragons.

Guest [00:28:47] But this is a little postscript to the white daddy story is that my son later that evening text sends me a text and says, you know, daddy, I want you to bring me some juice. And I texted him back saying, get your own damn juice and sign it. And even now I'll tease them about

Darron Smith [00:29:04] being

Guest [00:29:06] matter is these little things are not the result of anime. It's not the result of people being mean to us, being overly kind to try to include us, but it just creates these weird, you know, scenarios of like we said, Darren uses the term, it offends people. But. And white supremacy is not a meanness. It's not people being mad at someone. It's simply an idea that the highest glory to be attained in the world is to be a white man.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:29:38] This is why I think, well, this is why I said at the very beginning, don't just have a celebration, but put more people of color in your leadership so people can relate to them and people can have role models and people to look up to that look like them and put some Asians, put some, you know, Indian descent, put colorful, like more color.

Guest [00:29:59] So let me.

Sean Carter [00:29:59] Let's do this, guys. Let's do this. I don't want to, I don't want to cut this off. I want to go on forever. But we, we've gone way longer than we were supposed to. We're supposed to only be at an hour. I think we're almost two.

Darron Smith [00:30:10] I want to go bring up part one. Part two. This Was this was really interesting conversation. I think it really, really shows the differences between how we see the reason why I. Julienna, your story is really fascinating because it really speaks to.

Darron Smith [00:30:23] You know, I've done my. One of the areas I look at is an area called eco, well, neurosociology. So one of those areas is that women who come here from Africa, Nigeria, and women who come here from Jamaica, it takes them when they first get here, they're having the same within the eight, within their childbearing years, they're having the same mortality and infant mortality rates as white women. They're having the same child production. After about 10 years of being here, that productivity drops precipitously. It goes from the normal fertility white women carry to boom down to where African American women are having high levels of infant mortality.

Darron Smith [00:31:08] This has been a wonderful study that was done by a guy named David We Williams and David Williams conclusion is as what is causing these differences? These women are from Africa or from. Or from the Caribbean islands. They've had no experience with the kinds of racism that African American women have had yet by one to one generation, and they're already having high levels of infant mortality. So that has something to do with the degree to which racism is impacting the life experiences of people who are not from here. But they're not smart enough or they've not been trained to know that it's about race. This is about race.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:31:45] Are you saying I'm not smart enough?

Darron Smith [00:31:47] No, no, no, no, no, no. Because you are. You just told me, you told me you understood that race has a lot to do with this. But a lot of people don't. They just say, well, it's just luck. It's serendipity. I'm not praying hard enough. If I work hard enough, then I can get that. It's just not. It's just the data just doesn't support it. It just doesn't support it.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:32:07] That's interesting.

Darron Smith [00:32:07] Sadly.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:32:09] Yeah. John, what's the last.

Sean Carter [00:32:11] Let me add. No, I love it. I really would want this conversation to go on forever, but we do need to end it today. But we can have you guys back and just keep going at this. Just today. I've got to run, honestly. So I apologize for that. But let me give everyone one last word just to bring it back. So the church. The church has given the priesthood to, you know, to black men. They have let black women and families now enter the temple. They're now spreading the gospel, spreading like wildfire. In Africa, there are hundreds of thousands of African members. The church is now brought on. What's that?

Darron Smith [00:32:53] No African Americans, though.

Sean Carter [00:32:55] No, no, no, I know. Let me just say what they have done. They do try and have, you know, members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. They try and have area authorities who are from Africa or from Brazil. They finally have a Brazilian, you know, apostle, which is progress. And they're basically saying race. They're saying racism is bad discrimination. No, no, no, I know, I know.

Darron Smith [00:33:22] Just because you put a person of color in position doesn't mean they don't act and walk and talk.

Is the Church Genuinely Changing on Race?

Sean Carter [00:33:29] So that's my final question for everyone for today's episode. We've had the 40 year celebration. They're denouncing racism. They're denouncing prejudice. They're saying that we all need to do better. What progress can you acknowledge, each of you? And then what needs to still happen for the church to kind of be right with the world and with you guys? So let's do Sean first.

Guest [00:33:57] Can't help but acknowledge progress. I guess the only thing I would say as far as, you know, going forward, because this is, by the way, not just a Mormon problem, but an American problem particularly, and probably a worldwide problem, is the fact that I think we're going to have to really try to work harder. Darren talked about this. It's not enough just to say, okay, I don't hate, you know, black people. You actually have to work hard to dismantle an entire lifetime of learning that white is supreme. And you don't just do that by saying, okay, I'm not gonna say that anymore. It actually takes concerted effort.

Guest [00:34:38] And so like I said, I mentioned a simple thing. Jesus needs to be brown. We don't have to go black. That's crazy. All right? But we can go at least a lighter, you know, making the color of our apostle from Brazil. All right, you know, get me Steph Curry. Maybe Steph Curry. We have to go, you know, Wesley Snipes and Bernie Mac. That's great.

Guest [00:34:57] We have to move images or make a concerted effort to get rid of all vestiges of the fact that of white supremacy, because otherwise we're not getting any further.

Sean Carter [00:35:10] Okay, that's great, Sean. Darren, how about you? What. What do you acknowledge in terms of progress, what needs to still happen?

Darron Smith [00:35:22] The only evidence of progress I've seen is there's more. There seems to be more second generation Mormons that I'm seeing now that I haven't seen before. So I'm seeing a lot more growth that way. But that's Only in the United States. Not too much abroad. That's the first thing. The second thing is to simply apologize. Just simply say, I'm sorry. I mean, damn, ain't that hard.

Darron Smith [00:35:42] Sorry, we made a mistake, it's over, move on. Then people can say, wow, they really took responsibility and ownership of their shit, and then move on. Right. I mean, you'd have people flocking to this church, black folks, at least, anyway. Really? Did Mormon church did that? Wow. No, no, we talking about this, you know, down the road. 50 years down the road, it'd be the 50th anniversary. Y' all be still be talking about, I'll be too old. Don't call me because I ain't gonna say shit about it.

Darron Smith [00:36:11] Y' all talk the same stuff y' all been saying all the same time about, well, what's going to happen in the 60th year? They're not going to stay in the process. They're not going to apologize, period.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:36:23] All right, then you're going to have to live with that. Yeah, let it go. I do let it go.

Darron Smith [00:36:28] I do live with it. I'm okay with it. Because you know why I'm okay with it, Juliana? Because I was never meant to be a part of it anyway.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:36:35] There you go.

Sean Carter [00:36:37] All right, Juliana.

Final Thoughts and Listener Takeaways

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:36:39] Well, what I would like to say is, first of all, I want to say to people like Alex Boyer and Gladys Knights, to keep pushing those boundaries by, you know, encouraging people to be themselves and bring their culture, and not just them, but Sisters in Zion, Sisters in Zion, Native Americans, any cultures, Polynesian, whatever your culture is, just don't let it go. And, you know, people around you need to accept who you are and where you're from, how you're coming. I want to encourage the people who are inside of the church, which are many who are struggling to continue to push those boundaries and make those demands, because I admire them for having that energy.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:24] Because I'm like. I'm like, you know, I lost the interest, but just keep pushing those boundaries. The church does move, you know, very slowly, but it does make changes. And people need to fight from the inside, you know, and.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:37:41] Or stand up for the oppressed, you know, whatever the group may be, you know who you are, and also have the courage, if it's too uncomfortable, to admit that to yourself and be true to yourself. And if the answer is, you know, I can't live here, I can't do this anymore because I can't live in a box, reach out to people like, you know, who've done it because it's very scary. I don't want to encourage people to leave, but I want to encourage people to take care of their mental health and their physics and their physical health. And if it's detrimental and they're suffering, you don't have to live with that. You really don't. The world is big enough if they're

Darron Smith [00:38:25] suffering today, need to leave.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:38:27] Just, you know, reach out, reach out. And there are many groups at different levels of believe, non believe, in, out, reach out to people who've gone through the journey and get that, that help and support.

Darron Smith [00:38:41] So wherever you're at the church is a stressor, a psychological stressor in a number of ways. John. John is a clinical psychologist and he can tell you, just working with Mormons that there's a number of stressors that Mormons deal with. Being a member of an LGTB community is hugely stressful. In a church that propagates the idea that the nuclear family is the end and be all of families, that's hugely stressful. Obviously blacks. So one way that you can alleviate interpersonal suffering is balance. It's so liberating.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:39:24] Sean, not everyone's ready, but. Yeah,

Guest [00:39:30] but I get divorced if I don't bring this up. My wife had mentioned this to me and I can't afford a divorce. All right, so hear me out. All right? Nor do I want one. But there was a little consternation among some of my sisters in the church that this weekend there were a lot of events for B1, not more than just an hour and a half celebration, and that a lot of our progressive Mormon brothers and sisters, white Mormon brothers, particularly sisters, weren't there. I, for a couple years was on the OW board.

Guest [00:40:03] Roberts has been a president or chair of that board. And there's a little consternation that maybe some of our white sisters could have taken, you know, one or two floats off and come to see or to otherwise, you know, be involved, that maybe we're not getting equal intersectionality between the two. So I had to bring that up to make sure my white sisters know you need to do a little better.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:40:31] Yeah.

Darron Smith [00:40:32] May I ask one more? Want to say one more thing, too? It's very hard being a black male in the church. Black men in the church are often beat up real bad by black women in the church. So let's not get started with that either. That's a whole nother issue. But I find that black women in the church can be very hostile to black men.

Guest [00:40:52] How divorced you trying to get? All right, come on, man. Come on.

Sean Carter [00:40:58] All right. Well, you are a brilliant and a wise panel. It's been so wonderful having you. Thank you so much, all of you, for being willing to come on. We didn't get a lot of listener comments or questions because there was so much to be said, but we want to thank everyone for the conversation and we want to. Let's have more of this. Is that okay? Let's. Let's do more of this. Sean's saying, no,

Darron Smith [00:41:27] your listeners cannot. They can't answer.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:41:30] They can't.

Darron Smith [00:41:30] They have. No. They don't have any concept to answer questions about this. They don't live it. All they can do is listen and try to transform.

Sean Carter [00:41:39] What I can say is a lot of people are grateful. Rachel says, fascinating conversation. Thanks, everyone. Melissa says, enjoying this podcast very, very much. Melissa gave you guys two verys. Joanne, Joanna says this is a great discussion. Daniel says, this. That's a fascinating and terrifying study. Darren, he's talking about the study you're telling us about. Anyway, our listeners love this conversation. I love this conversation. I can't thank you guys enough for doing it. Kudos to whatever progress has been made, and let's hope the church keeps making more and more progress. Let's see some apologies, let's see more leaders of color, and we'll see where we go.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:42:23] Alrighty. Thank you.

Sean Carter [00:42:25] Love you guys. Thanks for joining us. Thanks all the listeners, and check us out on MormonStories.org, email us MormonStories@gmail.com if you have feedback for us, and we'll talk again soon. Take care, everybody.

Julienna Viegas-Haws [00:42:38] All right. Bye, John. Bye. Bye.

Sean Carter [00:42:42] I will see you guys.

Darron Smith [00:42:44] Bye.

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