Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:00:43] Lead

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:00:48] and I am far from home.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] What an awesome group we have tonight. I love to see people showing up for important issues, and this is certainly one for those you don't know. My name is John Dehlin. I'm the host of Mormon Stories Podcast and this is Mormon Stories Live. Let's give everyone a hand. Super excited to have you here. Let's see, the date is May 4th. May the 4th be with you.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:01:25] Oh

John Dehlin [00:01:28] yeah, it's a really cool day. It's a really important topic. Thank you for the beverages. We want to thank club cafe at 50 west for hosting us. They're always amazing hosts. This program is brought to you by the Open Stories Foundation. I have to give a plug for the osf. The Open Stories foundation has several podcasts that try and support open discussion of important topics within Mormonism. That includes Mormon Stories Podcast, Mormon Matters Podcast, a thoughtful Faith Podcast, Mormon Transitions Blog, and Podcast Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. What am I forgetting? Lots of good stuff. In addition to podcasts, I will say that we have these amazing events. They're retreats that we hold about every quarter that are totally focused. They're very positive. They're focused on healing and growth during and after a Mormon transition. They're very well rated. The last retreat we had in Park City was rated 4.9 out of 5 by all the attendees. You can read more about these retreats@mormontransitions.org, but if you are in a marriage where you're struggling regarding faith issues, if you've got extended family that you're struggling to communicate with, if you're struggling to figure out how to raise kids, and in a faith transition, if you're having a personal crisis, if you don't know how to, you know, navigate these waters, this is a really safe weekend where we just get to know each other. It's a safe place where people can share their stories and heal and grow. We have mental health professionals there, including Natasha Helfer. Parker, thank you so much. We even have workshops on healthy sexuality after a Mormon transition and healthy spirituality. So if any of you guys are interested, we'd love to have you. That's enough plugs for today. We are very, very excited to be covering a very important and sensitive topic that affects Utahns, it affects Mormons, and it affects people all over the world. Really. It's something that we've wanted to cover for a long time on Mormon stories, but haven't known exactly how to do it in a way that respects people's privacy, that isn't exploitative of people's experiences. And I think we've got the right formula tonight. So we're going to be tackling rape as a general topic. We're going to be talking about rape as it relates to LDS Mormon culture. We're going to be talking about rape at byu and we're just really excited. We do have several organizations here with tables in the back. I'm going to mention them at the beginning and at the end we have the Rape Recovery center, which is a Salt Lake City organization. They're here. They're going to come up later and talk. We have an organization called start by believing Utah, which the website startbybelieving.org we have restore our humanity human rights in Utah, restorehumanity.org and we have an initiative called Talk to a Survivor. I'm just going to mention all those up front. There are others that I'm probably forgetting. But we're going to bring everyone up at the end to make sure and talk heavily about the resources there. But I wanted to give them a plug. And now without any further ado, I want to go around our little panel and have everyone introduce themselves. Lately I have been feeling really good about occasionally partnering with Lindsey Hanson Park. How many of you guys know Lindsay? Yeah, I had the good fortune of spending some time with Lindsay and her awesome husband Dallin and some other friends who are here in the audience in London. And I've been partnering with Lindsay on a few of these Mormon stories live. This is co produced by Feminist Mormon Housewives, the organization, but also Feminist Mormon Housewives Podcast which produces Year of Polygamy and also Color of Heaven which is some amazing podcasts that Lindsay co leads with Gina Colvin and Misha mcgriggs who is here in the audience. Am I forgetting anyone? But I do want to, I want to thank and welcome Lindsay Hanson park as my co host tonight. She helped organize this. Can we give Lindsey a round of applause? I can plug Sunstone, but Why don't you go ahead and plug a little bit? Whatever you want to say.

Panelists Introduce Themselves

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:06:15] Thanks, John. Okay. So I'm also the assistant director for the Sunstone Education foundation, which is like a big organization that promotes thoughtful discussions around Mormonism. You don't have to believe, you don't have to even be Mormon, as long as you can discuss it politely and respect other people's views. So we have a big symposium in the summer, which we like to call the Mormon Comic Con. Actually, people come in. I think we're going to actually give a prize this year for best Mormon cosplay. So look forward to that. But that's the end of July, July 27th through the 30th. And you can find out more about that@sunstone.org and John will be there as well.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] Absolutely. So this event tonight would not be possible without Lindsay helping us organize. And Lindsay helped assemble this panel. And now I'm going to introduce our panelists, and we're going to start with Aubrey Parmenter. Aubrey, why don't you introduce yourself?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:07:14] I'm Aubrey Parmenter, and I'm here as a survivor and to also represent a bunch of survivors who wanted to be here but couldn't. So I'm here kind of as the survivor contingent tonight.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:07:25] You came all the way from.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:07:26] I came all the way from Albany, Oregon. So I flew in last night.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:07:31] Are you kidding?

John Dehlin [00:07:31] I didn't know that.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:07:32] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] That's amazing.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:07:34] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Aubrey helped us organize this event. I had several survivors reach out just to Aubrey. She's collected stories from several survivors. She also went the extra mile and contacted several current and former Mormon bishops

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:07:52] and a stake president and stake president

John Dehlin [00:07:53] to get information on how the church currently is training and dealing with these matters. So Aubrey's locked and loaded.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:08:03] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] In addition, I want to introduce Catherine Jones. Porter. Katherine, tell us a bit about yourself.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:08:09] I'm Kathryn. I am a sexual assault survivor advocate here in Salt Lake. I love, love the work that I do. It sounds a little bit weird to love doing something like that, but it really is an incredible thing to do. Just really quickly, if I can do a plug. We're going to be talking about things tonight that are going to be really triggering. They're going to be difficult to hear, difficult to digest. There are a number of amazing people in the back over there by the door who are present in the event that anybody feels compelled to make a disclosure or if anybody is just needing someone to kind of guide them through any feelings that come up in regards to what we discussed. Tonight.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:08:57] So, yeah, that's me.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] All right, thank you so much for joining us, Catherine. And to round out our panel tonight is someone who I have fun feelings for. You may know her. Is that my.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:09:14] It was me. We got too close.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] Okay.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:09:16] You got too close.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Am I back up? Okay. I just want to take the. Take a moment to introduce someone who I care a lot about, Donna Kelly. So, Donna, tell us a bit about yourself and what. What brings you here?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:09:34] So, I have. I'm a prosecutor. I've been a prosecutor of sexual assault and domestic violence and child abuse cases for the last 26 years, and so for various different agencies. So I've worked with about 3,000 survivors of either physical or sexual violence over the last years. I also have a famous daughter, Kate Kelly. You might have heard of her before.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] Hi, Kate. Kate's here. So, yeah, Donna Kelly. Let's welcome her to stage.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:10:10] Thanks. You're so nice. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] What's that?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:10:12] You're very nice. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Oh, yes. So glad you guys are here. Okay. Well, I'm going to begin in a. In a way that I hope is useful. I think it will be, because for me, I think I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think women understand this issue a bit more than men do generally. And I'm going to say that if there's an audience that I want to. We want to reach a lot of audiences tonight, but I think we want to try our best to reach sort of a male audience that is often in power and that often doesn't understand these issues. And so the way I thought to begin was to sort of convey a story that's going to disclose a little bit about maybe a prior version of myself, maybe in some ways a current version of myself. But as a podcast host, sometimes I try and ask questions in a way that represent what I think some of my audience might be thinking or feeling as a starting off point for the discussion. And it'll probably. It might be a little bit triggering, but it's not intentionally provocative, but a fictitious story. Okay. I'm with my friend. Okay. And my friend gets a text from his female friend, and the text says, let's get drunk tonight. Okay. Let's get trashed. Let's just say it says that. So I'm like, oh, you're gonna go? You guys gonna have fun tonight? Great. You know, let me know how it goes. They get together at my friend's apartment, and they do exactly what the intent of the evening was. They drink, they have a good Time, whatever. They do exactly what they had planned to do. The next morning, I meet up with my friend, and he looks at me with sort of this ghost, this pale white sort of look, and I'm like, what's wrong, bud? And he's like, my friend is accusing me of rape. Last night we got. We. She came over to my place, we got drunk, and. And I felt like, you know, she was interested in taking it further. I felt like I got all the signs that I needed and it was appropriate. But she's saying that I. That I raped her. And this is a. This is a friend. This is someone that I like, and this is someone who I care about. And maybe his job or maybe his career is now in jeopardy because he's being accused of rape. And so there probably are many people out there who would say lots of different types of reactions. I think a very. A very common reaction would be,

Guest 2 [00:13:13] well,

John Dehlin [00:13:13] who knows what happened, really, Right? But what's she doing? And this is going to sound offensive. What's she doing getting drunk alone with a guy? Right? Like, this is kind of a natural consequence of what happens if two people decide together to get drunk. We'll never know the truth. And so, you know, you don't want to say anyone deserves it, right? But it's very natural to say she shouldn't have been in the wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing. Because when two people don't have their full resources about them, bad things are going to happen. And we all know that this can happen. So, you know, let's not ruin my friend's life by calling him a rapist. Let's just say unfortunate circumstance, and let's move on and try and learn our lessons. Now, I know that what I just said is probably deeply offensive and triggering to people, but I kind of want to start there because I think there's a lot in my audience that's exactly where they are. Forgive me if many of you here aren't at that place. Is it okay to start there?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:14:30] I think that's a great place to start. And I can tell you that the majority of the survivors that I spoke with, the people around them, reacted exactly like you described. It's really easy for us. The wrong place, wrong time, doing the wrong thing, wearing the wrong clothes, wearing the wrong clothes, sending the wrong message. Those are things that get repeated a lot. And a lot of the survivors that I spoke to, I promised everyone that I spoke with that I would keep them in confidence because every single one of them did not want Their name or, you know, even locating details around them with their story. These are stories that are 30, sometimes 40 years removed. That there's still that. I don't want people to know that about me because I don't want them to put the blame back on me. And when you have a friend in that situation who, you know, I'm not a man. I've never been in the situation where maybe I misread signals. But if you misread signals, if there wasn't consent, which we could. We could probably go on for hours talking about consent and what it is and what it isn't. But you may not realize that the person that you're with is either not able to give consent in a state of inebriation, you are not able to give consent. If you are drinking with someone, assume that they cannot give consent.

Defining Rape and Rape Culture

John Dehlin [00:15:51] So let's. What if we started by defining some terms? Is that a good start? All right, so who wants to jump in and define some terms for us?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:15:59] You're really good at this.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:15:59] I'll do it.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] All right.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:16:02] And people can help me if they want to.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:16:04] Can we start with the topic that we're talking about, which is rape? Can we stop rape and rape culture first?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:16:09] Okay.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:16:10] Well, we can get real specific. I have things written down. Rape actor has sexual intercourse with another person without the victim's consent, whether or not they're married.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] Okay. And it involves intercourse?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:16:27] Yes, specifically.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Okay.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:16:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] What if it's not intercourse, but something short of that? Is there a term for that?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:16:36] There is.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:16:36] There is.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:16:37] So sexual abuse is non consensual. Non consensual sexual touching, not amounting to rape. Object rape or forcible sodomy. Forceful sodomy would be something that would be considered like oral or anal, something like that. And then object rape, obviously that's not necessarily using one's body parts against another person, but something else.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Okay, great. What other terms do you have for us?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:17:05] Aggravated sexual assault. That's a big one. This is a sexual assault, a rape where there's a weapon, the threat of a weapon, there's the threat of kidnapping, death, bodily injury if it's aided by one or more persons. So you hear the term, like gang rape, that would be aggravated sexual assault. And then something that would cause bodily injury.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:17:33] Can I cut in for a minute, please? Donna, will you kind of give us the difference between. We're going to be talking about the theoretical discussion of these terms. So the term rape culture shows up in feminist theory a lot, and that's why it's rejected by a lot of groups, like men's rights activists, who not as a whole, but a lot of people reject some of these terms. There's this idea that rape culture is a myth. So we'll talk about that, the theoretics of it. But can you talk about the legal definitions as well and kind of the difference between being theoretical and what you can prosecute?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:18:07] I think that Katherine was reading from the Utah code.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:18:12] That's the actual Utah code.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:18:13] The Utah code actually is very specific. It has a step, an actual separate statute that defines what consent is for purposes of criminal prosecution. So culturally, we can define it, you know, however we want, but for the criminal purposes, it's very specifically defined in the Utah code. And it involves, I think there's 13 or 14 subsections to our consent statute. So it is. It starts out with the very most obvious things like physical force, but it also includes a lot of other definitions of lack of consent. A person who is in position of special trust that takes advantage, for example, a psychiatrist or therapist, Women or men who are 14 to 18 who are coerced or enticed into the activity by a much older adult. It has quite a few subsections in there to the consent statute. So it's not just physical force that's the issue. It's broader than that under Utah law.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:19:24] And this is something that I hope that we can talk about. Consent is a big issue. And I actually think that consent in the Mormon context is probably the most contentious part of this whole discussion, because when we get into talking about consent, and I hope that we talk a lot about it, and it's going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, there's a very Mormon thread throughout this, which means, you know, if you look at power imbalances or authority, we have authority in the Mormon Church. And so consent gets complicated when you have people in authority over people who are not. So consent is not about just saying yes or no. It factors in these things like authority. So Mormonism carries that, and there's this idea of what women are wearing and women inviting this in and men sometimes inviting this in. So let's start with consent, and maybe we can talk about maybe the general definition and then kind of get into the more nitty, gritty, everyday ideas and myths about consent.

Understanding Consent

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:20:23] So can I just start with talking about kind of where I think our country as a whole is going? We have the concept in our minds of no means no. Right? Everybody kind of recognizes that that is lack of consent. But the problem with no means no Is that many victims are overwhelmed and traumatized when this happens, and they can't. There is a thing called tonic immobility. When you are overcome by someone else, either by force or threat or you perceive that you're being threatened. You can have a thing called tonic immobility where you have verbal and physical immobility. So what? A lot of push by various groups around the country, and actually California in their title IX setting, Not in their criminal code, but in their Title 9 setting, have changed to yes means yes, which I think is a wonderful concept, because really, it's shifting right now. No means no puts all the onus on the victim to come forward and say, no, I don't want this to happen. But victims can't often do that because they're in this freeze mode from the trauma. Right. So now in California, the academic world, the title IX people have switched. And about a year ago, they passed legislation to say, before you proceed with sexual activity, you, have to receive an affirmative yes. So instead of no means no, it puts all the burden 100% on the victim. Now, I think, and I hope where we're going in our country is yes means yes. In other words, you can't proceed with activity like this Unless you receive an affirmative yes from someone. You can't. You know, and I've had cases as a prosecutor where a victim has been drinking, goes into a room to be by herself. This is a specific case I had. She's on the bed. She's laying over the edge of the bed, vomiting, and someone comes up behind her and begins having sexual activity with her. She was vomiting over the edge of the bed. But because our statute is worded no means no, she didn't communicate. And he's like. He's telling a police officer, well, she didn't say no. You know, everything was fine. I thought everything was fine. So that the problem is, our no means no approach to this issue Means that we're putting 100% of the burden on the victim. And often, if they're overwhelmed or in trauma, they can't.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] Or under the influence of sexual assault,

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:22:57] or under the influence or unconscious.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] Right.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:23:00] A couple years ago in the legislature, we made some improvements to that statute, and there were a few legislators that said, well, it's not wrong to have sex with unconscious people, is it? And we actually explained, yes, it actually is wrong.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:23:13] And so, sadly, there are people who think that's Oklahoma.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:23:18] So I think. But I hope where our society is going, it's more to a yes means yes standard.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] So what is can we break down consent? Just hit it right on.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:23:28] I think we can talk about it. One of the best descriptions that I was ever given.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Actually, let me pause you.

Guest 2 [00:23:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:34] So I'm a BYU student. I'm up on Inspiration Point, whatever it is. We've been breaking the honor code and drinking a little bit. We're in the backseat. We're both into it, right? And then at some point, I make a move, right? Where does consent come in?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:23:54] I have a survivor who actually had a very similar story to that and was really. Just really loved this guy that she had been dating for a while. And, you know, culturally, we know how things go. You date and there's this swing of emotions, and it's really great, and it heats up really fast. And then all of a sudden, you're at this place where you pretty much got to get married. And she was kind of at that place, and this guy's roommates had gone out of town, and he convinced her to come over and spent the entire time during their romantic day coercing. And. Sorry, this one gets me. This was a hard one for me to record. Coercing her, threatening her, guilt tripping her, making her feel that, you know, there was no other option. And then the clock struck past curfew, and then it. You know, at that point, he had convinced her to have sex with him, which she did not consent to. When you're. When you're pushed that far, when you finally give in, that's not consent. That's. That's. She was a hostage, really. But. But it came back to. For her, that was just. She had every reaction that you expect a survivor of rape to have. She went into shock. She sunk into a deep depression. She failed out of BYU because no one was there to help her. That was her perception. I need to clarify. She felt that no one would help her. Her exact quote to me was, I knew from that moment I would never be happy again. And that, like, that killed me. But when you get into that situation where I'm sure in his mind, this was his girlfriend, they were in a relationship. Well, of course she would want to do this with me because, you know, we have feelings for each other. But when you push, beg, coerce, threaten, or anything else, that's not that. That's just not consent.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:25:52] One of my favorite things that I heard from a wonderful, wonderful man who is a champion in this kind of realm was that consent is a hell yes and a high five.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:26:03] I like that.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:26:06] And. And I think that that. That's excellent. Like, it I mean, definition is permission and enthusiastic involvement, participation.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:26:19] And I think it's continued.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:26:20] Absolutely. And that comes into play when you're dealing with situations like, well, we started, but then she said no. We had already started having sex, but then she changed her mind, but she said yes already. Acting like saying yes once is some sort of umbrella for continuing through it.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:26:39] It's not an altercation or.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:26:42] Exactly, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] So can I ask a question about that so I can imagine the scenario? And again, you know, I don't have a lot of experience in this area, so it's like, I can. Yeah. No, no, no. I just mean in, like, you know, you know how I am. I was raised Mormon, so. But it's like, is this okay? Okay. Is this okay? I can imagine the scenario where, like, every 20 seconds you're asking permission kind of kill. I'm being. I'm being awful here. Kind of kills. The mood feels unnatural. It could be awkward. Talk about why that's how that works or how it should be viewed differently.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:27:18] That's just something that I wanted to say, too, because I've been having this discussion in Mormon spaces for years now. And that is the number one question that comes up every time from Mormon men who say, so I have to ask permission to put my hand on her leg, and then I have to ask permission to put my hand on her back. And then from there, like, that's no fun. And women don't like that. That is the rebuttal I hear constantly.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:27:43] You know, I've seen. Not just in Mormon spaces, but all over the place. I've actually seen a lot of women saying, consent is sexual. Absolutely. There's nothing more, you know, that really makes you feel good about yourself as a person than have someone be like, I really want to kiss you right now. Like, that's something that's like, oh, well, okay, thanks. You know, it kind of. It's an uplift. I don't think that asking for consent and continually checking in with a partner, hopefully this is a partner that you're. I mean, even if it's no shame. I mean, even if it's. If it's just that one time, hopefully this is a partner. Especially. Especially if this is a spouse you should be really. Or a girlfriend or a boyfriend. If this is somebody that you're willing to spend that intimate level of time with, I would hope that you respect them enough to make sure that they are willing and enjoying the act that you are doing. Because if you don't put their needs first, how do you expect to have your needs met?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:28:42] Yeah. And in our culture, I think we're socialized to say no lots of different ways.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:28:48] Yeah.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:28:48] For example, if somebody. If I ask somebody to come over to my house for dinner, they're not going to say to me, oh, you're a horrible cook. I don't want to come to your house for dinner. They won't say that. Because we're socialized to, you know, be polite and to say things in a polite way. We might. That person might say to me, oh, I'm really busy. You know, I can't. I can't get away. I don't know if any of you have ever had my food, but it's not horrible. Okay.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:29:13] But

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:29:16] we have been socialized to always be polite, and that applies in sexual settings as well. We've been socialized to not hurt anybody's feelings and say things like, oh, you know, I don't think this is a good idea, rather than saying, hell, no.

Guest 2 [00:29:31] Right.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:29:32] And so that kind of becomes a problem in that kind of setting. That's why things like this are so important, because we need to talk about this issue. We need to talk about it with women and with men. We need to talk about, you know, what are the signals? What is okay if somebody is just frozen there and not moving and not responding in any way? I'm sorry, I think that you got that message that this is not something they want to do. But because of our socialization, you know, we're very hesitant to. You know, we don't want to hurt people's feelings. We don't want to do that. That's why these discussions are so important.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:30:13] And I think it's. Oh, sorry, Lindsay, did you want to say something?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:30:16] I was just.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:30:16] Have you guys heard about the orgasm gap before?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:30:19] Yeah.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:30:19] So there's this idea that. And this is. We get this in society a lot. That. That somehow men are supposed to enjoy sex more than women, that women can just lie there, and that's it. And what I would just want to add to this discussion is you don't want to be that person that has a partner that's not enjoying it. Do you really want to be that person?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:30:38] Exactly.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:30:38] That. That is not bringing joy to your partner. I mean, I would be mortified if that were me.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] And you're saying consent helps bring joy because you're bringing to the partner what

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:30:48] they want, they don't want to do it. And if you're not checking in with them to see that they're enjoying the experience like you are, I mean, what's the point.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] Yeah, it's kind of like it's not only do I have permission, but it's like, does this feel good? Are you into this?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:31:01] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] That's actually an enhancement to the experience.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:31:04] Absolutely. Not a mood kill, you know, and I've, I've. I've heard from a lot of guys who are concerned about that, and I just, I don't think that it needs to be. I don't think it needs to be a huge deal whether you as a person are concerned about how asking for consent will affect you. Because when you start talking that way, it's a lot of, what about me? What about me? What about me? If you are in a relationship with someone or even if it's just a physical relationship, you have got to stop thinking about yourself. I mean, it's. It has to be a mutual thing, and it just should be that way always.

Mormon Culture and Consent Narratives

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:31:41] So I want to talk about this idea in Mormonism too, because in Mormonism we have this fairy tale narrative that we give young women from birth, basically that they're going to find their prince and marry in their castle. Right. And marrying the temple.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:31:53] And.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:31:53] And it's this sort of fairytale idea. And at least me as a Mormon girl, I grew up with that. And I can think of so many scenes from romantic movies or books where, you know, the woman is fighting and she's upset and the man will just swoop in and kiss her and not ask her or kiss her against her will. And we all swoon. Right. And now after learning about this issue, I'm horrified when I see scenes like that. But I think it's very ingrained in us that we're supposed to be rescued. We're supposed to sort of romance is supposed to be forced on us because we're good girls and we don't ask for that kind of stuff. So do you guys want to talk about sort of that culture?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:32:28] A little bit. I want to mirror that it's not just young girls and young women who are being taught that young boys and young men are being taught by watching media that they are supposed to kiss a girl without her permission. They are supposed to wrap their arms around her and calm her down. They are supposed to ride in and save the day. This is something that's a problem on both ends of the spectrum.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:32:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Yeah. Girls and boys both. Okay, so so far, consent is a hell yes and a high five yes. And consent is, is.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:32:57] It's not an all day pass. A one time yes. It's not an all day pass.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] It's a, it's a yes.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:33:02] Yes means yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] Yes. Yes.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:33:04] No means no. And I would hope we go to that.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] And it's a turn on. That's the other thing I've learned so far. Okay, good. Okay, let's talk about substance use as it relates to consent. And then that's going to lead to sort of victim blaming a little bit. But what happens when alcohol or drugs are in the mix and how do we deal with that?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:33:25] It's hard.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:33:26] Yeah, it's hard.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:33:28] And I think that like you said, it's going to lead into the victim blaming thing a lot. The fact of the matter is if someone is under the influence of drugs or alcohol or helium, they, they can't give consent. Like if you are to the point where, you know, like bending over a bed, vomiting, that's not consent.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:33:53] Well, she didn't say no.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:33:54] Oh, right.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Real quick. Is it fair to talk about prevention as it relates to substance use?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:34:01] The only, the only people who can prevent rape.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Okay, that's important. What do you mean by that?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:34:10] Back up and talk about victim blaming as a whole first and then we'll get into.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Let's just, let's just say a well intended parent says to their kid, don't, you know, don't go in places where you could be harmed. Right, yeah, don't, don't put yourself in a position.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:34:25] Every parent, we all want our kids.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:34:27] Right?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:34:27] Okay, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] So, like, so, like, so how, how.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:34:34] I have a.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] How do we think about that? How do we think?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:34:36] So if I, you know, my parents say, lindsay, don't go in this part of town. It's got high crime. Don't go in there. And I, and I have to go in, I go in a dark alley and I am mugged. Who's responsible? Am I responsible?

John Dehlin [00:34:50] Mugger.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:34:51] The mugger. Every time. I'm not the one. Like people, it's this idea of victim blaming that we're going to talk about. This idea that you invite your assault. And what that does is it puts the onus on the victim, not on the criminal.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:35:06] Right.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:35:06] So let's talk about this because this is a huge issue in the culture at large and it's a huge issue in Mormonism. It's an issue that I've been guilty of before I find myself when people disclose to me. There have been times when I have said, instead of having the right response to say, yeah, but I've seen how you've interacted. Are you sure that's fair? And it's, it's, it's a very pervasive problem.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] Yeah. So like you went to the party, you got drunk, you were in a place where you put yourself at risk. That's, that's a natural reaction. Talk about. Well, because that's different than an alleyway where some person mugs you. Right? Yeah, this is, you know, or at least it would, some would think that it was different.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:35:50] You'd think it was.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] Right.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:35:51] So I'm going to actually, it's going to be kind of a both alleyway and party situation. So I'm sure a lot of our listeners and all y' all have probably heard a few months ago there was a rape in a parking garage here in downtown Salt Lake. And the news coverage of it, when you go and you read the article where it's, you know, writing about kind of the details, it involved what she was wearing, where she was, what time it was, and the fact that she had been drinking.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:36:27] Yeah.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:36:27] Why does any of that matter? It doesn't. She, she didn't ask for this. She didn't put herself into a position of, you know, saying like, oh, while I'm making these choices, it's 11 o' clock at night and it's dark in there. I'm going to go ahead and go get my car so that I can get home. Let's see what happens.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:36:49] And see, people will say it does matter. It does matter what she was wearing or where she was, if she was in a dangerous space because you've got to be safe. But the reason why we have to be so firm against this sort of thinking is it plays into a culture that always, always, always lets the perpetrator off the hook.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:37:09] Yep.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:37:09] They become this nebulous rapist and it's the victim who is now responsible for her own body and her own safety.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:37:16] And in the article, I'm sure they did not say what the perpetrator was wearing or how much he had to drink or why was he there at 11:30, why was he hanging out in a parking garage. Exactly. So we as a society, and one of the things that I've learned over the years is, I mean, obviously we live in a society where women have been second class citizens for most, except for up to the last 200 years. Until 200 years ago, women were not allowed to be educated to learn how to read. Until 30 years before my birth, women could not vote in this country. I mean, we live in a society where for thousands of years on the earth women have been second class citizens. But, and so I think that that's

John Dehlin [00:38:05] or not even citizens.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:38:06] Or not even citizens. True. Not even the Nicene Council. They had to vote and decide if women were human. And that was religious leaders of the time. Right. But okay, so there is that part because we know that 95% of people who adult victims who report are female. Okay, it is a gender issue. But here's another thing that I think another layer on top of that part of the reason that I think people engage in what we, what we call victim blaming behavior is well intentioned and that, and I, the reason I'm saying that is we don't want to. Sexual assault is horrible and icky and we don't want to believe that it can happen in our community. It's like a self defense defense mechanism to say, just rejected.

Guest 2 [00:38:58] Right.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:38:59] Wait a minute. At my daughter's high school there was a rape in the parking lot. Oh no, no, no. That couldn't happen because that might mean that my daughter's not safe. So we want to protect ourselves from these horrible crimes and in our mind we try to figure out a way that it really wasn't true, that it really didn't happen, that it really wasn't a rape that happened. And so I think a lot of times when people are asking those questions, questions, it's a self defense mechanism. I don't want it. But that's why this kind of discussion is so important because we have to get over that. We have to accept Utah is number nine in the United States for rape. We're number nine. We are always in the top 10 for sexual assault and domestic violence. Always in the top 10. We have to get beyond that and start talking about these issues or it's never going to change. It's not going to fix anything if we just continue to deny, well, it really wasn't rape because she was drinking or she was wearing a short skirt or I mean I do a presentation on sexual assault myths. One of the things that they've learned from research with perpetrators is they can't even tell you what the woman was wearing. It's about power. They can't identify what her clothing was. So it's not about her clothing. 100% not about the clothing. Perpetrators can't even tell you, can't even describe to the police interviewer what she was wearing most of the time. So but because we have this sort of, first of all, women are second class citizens anyway. But because we have this self defense layer on top of that, it's really hard to address these issues if we don't be honest. Among People in our culture and say, yes, it does happen. Yes, domestic violence happens. Yes, sexual assault happens, and it's not going to fix anything just to pretend that it doesn't happen and it'll go away.

Power, Substances, and Sexual Assault

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:40:58] And Donna touched on something. She talked about power. So we just talked about substances and how that affects consent. And now I want to talk about power and authority. Because if we look, Donna's giving statistics about women, but if we dig into it, we look at women of color are disproportionately affected by this issue. Trans women are affected by this issue. And when we talk about power in marginalized groups, as we get into it, the more marginalized you are, the more at risk you are. And that's why this issue has a lot to do with power. So I want to talk about this idea of power in sexual assault and rape and this idea that in society, we think that. That the narrative is that men somehow have this power, have this right to. When they are making out and they, you know, are getting closer and closer to sex, that men somehow have a right that we justify and say, well, of course they went that far. He had the right to do that. She led him on.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:41:58] I. One of the other victim stories, and I. I prefer the term survivor, but I want to make it clear. I spoke with a lot of women and a couple men, and most of them asked me to please not write anything down. So I have two that I wrote direct quotes from. And the second story talks a lot, puts a lot to that power. This is a woman who, you know, did everything right by the standards of the church. She was married in the temple, had, you know, was trying to start a family, was, you know, went to school, did a lot of the things right that she was supposed to do. She was going to church. She was, you know, not, you know, imbibing in substances or she was doing everything right. She dealt with spousal rape, which is something that we don't talk about because it's uncomfortable. The concept that a woman, either a woman could say no to her husband or that a husband would push past a. No, we don't talk about that. But she also had another experience with sexual assault. She had a predatory friend and met with him after meeting with a bishop and a stake president who misunderstood what was going on and were trying to put her through the beginnings of a repentance process for what they deemed an emotional affair, which it wasn't. I understand where they were coming from because they didn't have the frame of reference. But when she went to tell this guy to please leave her alone. He ended up holding her down and sexually assaulting her. And when she spoke to her stake president the next time was asked, what were you wearing? Why did you meet him in a park? Why did you meet him at all? Why didn't you bring your husband? Why were you doing this? It was a Sunday right after church. She was wearing very modest clothing. It was the middle of the day. This idea that creepy predators exist in these dark, scary holes and we as women must, you know, avoid the dark, scary hole while wearing our spaghetti strap tank top, you know, that's completely not the issue. This is someone she knew, someone she trusted, someone who they had a history of friendship. You are far more likely to experience sexual assault from an intimate partner or a friend or a husband or a wife or someone who's close to you than you are ever to experience it in a private, in a public place or in a scary place. Not saying that doesn't happen. It's just way more likely to be somebody, you know, 77%.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:44:36] And those kind of myths actually make women more at risk. Because if I just don't go down the alleys, the, this will never happen to me, right?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:44:44] Absolutely.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:44:45] But it does happen. It does happen. And if we want to try to explain it away by saying, oh, well, she was, you know, she went to a bar, it was late at night, she was drinking with people she didn't know. I just won't do that, and then I'll never be assaulted, that actually makes women more at risk.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:45:02] Absolutely.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:45:03] Because they don't guard against, you know, many of my cases over the years have been like a co worker that, you know, offered to come over and bring them some soup when they were sick or, you know, those kinds of things are the situations where if we buy into this rape myth of it's just the stranger in the alley, we're not going to be watching out for those other situations.

John Dehlin [00:45:24] So just to. I want to, I want to push back a tiny bit. Not push back, but I want to really drive this point home. Of course, one of the downsides of victim blaming is, is that we will ignore all the instances of rape where the person was dressed modestly and it was a trusted family friend and it wasn't in an alley. But why is it wrong? Why is it harmful? Why is it not productive? If there was alcohol involved, if the person chose to be in a place with somebody in a way where they were vulnerable, why is it wrong then as well to focus on things like dress or Substance use or choices that may have left the victim vulnerable. Why is it wrong, then, to highlight or discuss those points?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:46:14] It's wrong then, just like it's wrong in any other instance. The rapist is responsible for the rape.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:46:20] Mm.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:46:21] Survivor is not responsible.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:46:22] Right. And we. We do a gigantic disservice to survivors when we say things like, well, there was alcohol involved in this crime. That's a fact. If they had been drinking. That's a fact. If her ability to judge was impaired, then, yeah, that was a factor. But, you know, I just don't think that it's fair to tell someone that your pain is invalid because you were drinking. Your story doesn't matter because you were drinking. If someone wakes up the next morning and has hazy memories and says, that's not something that I would have done. I feel like I've been raped, I would have said, no, then, quite frankly, that's how it is. If she feels like she was raped, she was raped. And I know a lot of guys are probably screaming at the podcast right now. Thankfully, none of you are screaming in the audience. But like, well, that's not fair. How am I supposed to read minds? You're not supposed to read minds.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:47:25] That's the point.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:47:26] And the thing is, if you, too, are also in a state of inebriation, and maybe you're not thinking, well, maybe if that situation happens, and I want to be clear, this is not the most common rape situation, that two people are drunk, and then somebody. I hate the term. Regrets it later. But I hear that all the time.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:47:46] If.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:47:46] If maybe you were altered as well, perhaps you owe that person a gigantic apology.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:47:52] Yeah, I would say I.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:47:54] Go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] No, no, no.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:47:56] I think a lot of people listening to this have probably been in this scenario where now you're rethinking maybe an interaction you had with someone you know, and you think, oh, well, I didn't ask for consent for that. Or maybe that was inappropriate. And this is what we're trying to talk about. The larger system, the larger culture, of course, this is what happens because of media, because of these ideas. Even in Mormonism, as you're talking about inviting evil in this, avoid the appearance of evil. We are stewing in this stuff. And so it makes sense that all of us would have to rethink our interactions because they are so very common.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] This is just one small angle, but someone once said to me, when a man goes to a party and get drunk, he doesn't have to worry about getting sexually assaulted. Why should a woman. Why should it be On a woman to be responsible. When a man doesn't have to even think twice.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:48:50] It shouldn't.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:48:51] I mean, when we go to our car, this is something that I think a lot of men probably don't relate to. But when I go to my car, every time, it doesn't matter where I'm at, I'm thinking about my car. If a person walks up to me or walks by, just a single person, I've got my keys ready. We are taught from birth how to protect ourselves, how to prevent our own assaults. This is something that we're thinking about all the time. This is why we go to the bathroom in groups. This is why we go places. Because from birth, we know that we could be assaulted at any time. It's this larger culture that somehow it's our responsibility to worry about that. And yet we don't teach boys. You know what? If you're walking, don't walk too close to a woman in the dark. You know, that's not what we talk about. We tell women, get your keys ready, get your keys ready.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:49:39] There's this really great quote, and I think it's Margaret Atwood, but don't skewer me if that's not the case. In discussing, like, asking men what they feared most about the opposite sex, that they will laugh at us. Asking women what they feared the most about the opposite sex, that they will kill us. Yeah, That's a pretty powerful statement.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:50:00] And I think that we do. To answer your question, John, about Should I tell my daughter not to be doing these things that are risky. Absolutely. But then our response after something, if something should happen, should always be, it wasn't your fault.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:50:18] Absolutely.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:50:19] I've met with victims before. I had a case once at a high school parking lot where a girl was there late at night with her friends. A guy drove up in a car that she kind of knew, but not really well. She bent over to talk to him. He pulled her into the car, drove off with one hand, and she was waving to her friends out the window, hey, hey. And her friends thought she was waving goodbye, so they just waved goodbye and she left. Well, he drove her to another part of town, took her into a vacant building, raped her, and left her on the basement for floor. She came into my office, and the entire time she spent saying, this is really my fault. This is really my fault. Because I should have yelled help instead of hey. And I should have told my friends. I should have been more clear, this is my fault. I must have said, you know, 30 times during that interview. During that hour. This was not your fault. What happened, that wasn't your fault. I just said it over and over again. So I think part of our response is, yes, of course we don't want to play. We don't, you know, if a building is burning, we tell our kids to run out of the building.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:51:23] Right.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:51:24] We want our kids to be safe. But our response once it does happen is to say instead of like, what were you wearing? Or why did you go over there late at night? Our response should always be, how can I help you? What can I do? What would be good for you? This was not your fault, all of those things. Sometimes it's in our response. And yes, we absolutely need to keep ourselves safe. You know, we don't walk on the edge of, you know, a cliff. You know, we want to keep our kids back from the cliff. But our response should always be, this was not your fault.

How to Respond to a Survivor

John Dehlin [00:51:59] Okay, before we talk a little bit more about what the right response is, including resources, what's the wrong response? So your daughter comes to you, your, you know, your friend comes to you and says, I was at a party and I'm just going to keep using this. I'm at a party, I got drunk. He, he took advantage of me. What's the wrong response? What are the components of the wrong responses? We've talked about it a bit. Let's just summarize.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:52:24] Are you sure?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:52:25] Like, are you sure that's what it was? Are you sure?

John Dehlin [00:52:28] Okay, what is that?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:52:29] Did you lead him on?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:52:30] Yeah. Did you lead him on?

John Dehlin [00:52:32] What is, Are you sure? What is that? What are you doing there?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:52:35] Especially if they were inebriated, like, are you sure that's what happened? Or did you make that up?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:52:38] Yep, Just questioning them. I think that, you know, it's our role as somebody who's receiving a disclosure to validate and empower. So if somebody comes to us and says, you know, like, I was at this party and, and we were really drunk and I think, I think I've been raped. Well, I mean, you were drunk.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:00] Are you sure?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:02] Or, you know, and that could, that could be all encompassing to all these different things, you know, like, oh, gosh, I was in my parking garage and it was 11 o' clock at night and it was really dark, I should.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:12] Because those parking garages are sexy places to be. Right. Everybody wants to be thrown down on the cement floor. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] So don't, don't express doubt. What else, what else should you not.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:24] And shame.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] Yeah, shame.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:26] Which is, well, you shouldn't have been.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:28] Blah, blah, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why were you wearing that skirt? Why did you go over there late at night? Why did you do this?

John Dehlin [00:53:33] Why did you lie to me? Why did you lie?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:53:34] Another one. If. If a woman is sexually active, it's just assumed that, well, she has sex a lot, so what's the big deal?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:44] That's a huge issue with our prostituted communities.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:47] Yeah, this is maybe a good time to talk about start by believing.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] Yeah, start by believing.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:53:53] So Utah, not this last legislature, but in 2015, Utah became the second state in the United States to be a start by believing state. Which is awesome because most sexual. The vast majority of sexual assault victims don't immediately report to the police or immediately go to the emergency room. They go to their friend and say, oh, my gosh, this horrible thing happened last night. And I'm trying to figure it out, and. And I think I was raped. So they go to somebody that's trusted, that they feel like they can confide in. Most commonly, some do. I mean, in 3,000 cases, I had one time the victim picked up the phone and called 911 right away. That's just extremely unusual. But we want that first response to be, what can I do? How can I help you? Rather than, well, I told you not to go to that house, or, why were you drinking?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:54:52] Or, well, you've been dating him for two whole months.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:54:56] And for police officers, or you're married, I mean, police. This is going to take to fix sexual assault problems. It's going to take all hands on deck. It's going to take everybody. I think that we put too much burden, too much pressure on the successful outcome of a criminal case. That's not the only measure of success, really, in sexual assault. In fact, a lot of times the cases I had where the jury found the guy not guilty, I had one time I walked into my office and I had roses on my desk, and it was from the victim in a not guilty verdict case. And she said to me, you believed me, and that was enough. And so I think that we need to measure success in lots of different ways. Helping these survivors, helping these victims go from victim to survivor is so important. And that can be a measure of success. You know, do you. Are you able to go on and have a happy, successful life? Do you have good, positive relationships in your life? You know, are you, Are you, Are you happy? Those kind of things that we can help victims do rather than a lot of victims think, oh, if I just. If he's just convicted of a crime, then my life Will be wonderful. That's actually not true. I mean, you know, somebody goes to prison, that's really, really sad and unfortunate that they're going to prison, but it doesn't fix everything for a victim. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] Sometimes I've heard that it can be a real public shaming to actually go to trial and that especially if the perpetrator is not convicted, then the person's just sitting in their shame and completely invalidated by having lost the court case.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:56:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] Is that right? Plus out money and time and expense.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:56:43] The criminal justice system is brutal for victims. It's very hard, and it's whether. Whether the outcome is a conviction or not. I mean, I think it is. You're right. It is harder when you get that not guilty. Those two horrible words, not guilty, when you get that kind of result. Because the victims always take it as, oh, my gosh, they didn't believe me. That's not always true with the jury. You know, the juries. Sometimes I go back and talk to the juries and hear what they have to say, but that's not always true. But the victims perceive it that way, and then they're stuck in this mode of, you know, it doesn't help their healing process. And it's. It's. You're right. It's. It's an additional burden. So the criminal justice system is not going to fix everything for everybody.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [00:57:31] And one of the survivors that I spoke to actually went through the trial for her assault, and she said that it was one of the worst experiences. It was almost worse for her than the assault itself was because in her words, I had to play the victim. And she. This is a very strong woman. And she was like, you know, I really wanted to move forward. I wanted to restart my life, but I didn't want him to hurt somebody else again. So I agreed to go to trial. And she's like, I had to sit up there and I had. And she's like, I cried because it was awful. But, you know, I had to use my emotions and my pain to prove to a judge and a jury those are her words, that this guy was worth putting in prison. And, you know, I think that. I think that that is really something we need to be mindful of. And I don't want to pull it away too much from what we're talking about, but many of the survivors that I spoke with went through some form or another of the repentance process or church court process for their assaults. And I want to talk about that a little bit. Is that okay if I Talk about that for a second. About how that.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] Yeah, I just want to close up. So we're talking about what the wrong response. Response is. Let's just talk quickly about what the right response is, then we'll jump in.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:58:48] Can I interrupt? There's something that I think is important here, and maybe you can give us a statistic of how many sexual assaults or rapes actually make it to the. To the legal system. Because what I think that we need to remember is when we talk about the subject, even now, in my head, I think of a woman and a stranger that I don't know. But when people disclose to you, oftentimes the. The person that has victimized her is someone you know and someone she knows. And so it's difficult to villainize that person who you are in a relationship with or that. That you know really well. And this is a very common thing. And so when we're talking about this, what does that mean? What does that mean for society? When you can love someone and know that they've done this harm to someone else? What does that mean for us? How do we hold those things together?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [00:59:39] As far as the statistics, only. It's estimated that only about 10% of sexual assaults are ever reported to the system. And of those 10%, there was a study that came out in Salt Lake county in January of 2014. For every 100 sexual assaults that was reported to the system, take a guess how many got prosecuted? Does anybody have a guess? Six.

John Dehlin [01:00:07] Six. Six of 100. Six percent.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:00:09] Six of the six for every hundred. So we were prosecuting 6% of those cases. We're trying to make some improvements, obviously, because that's pretty horrible.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] So less than 1% of assaults get reported.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:00:23] So, yeah. If you were considering. If anybody here is considering a career as a criminal, I would suggest you become a rapist because the odds are you're never going to get caught. You're never going to get any.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] You don't want to tell people that

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:00:37] I'm being facetious, obviously, but the odds of them getting caught and getting a consequence are very slim.

Guest 2 [01:00:44] Yeah.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:00:45] If we were to have an open mic and invite all the women in this room to come and talk about a time when they have been intimidated, sexually or sexually assaulted or raped, I think it would be overwhelming. In fact, I'm trying to think of a woman I know that doesn't have a story of this. I mean, it's overwhelming.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:04] It's.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:01:04] It's very, very likely that anyone listening to here. No, listening to this. Knows women that have been Sexually assaulted. In fact, I would say the vast majority of women in your life have in some form or another.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:15] Yeah.

Practical Steps and Reporting Resources

John Dehlin [01:01:15] So really briefly, before we get to the religious stuff, a loved one comes to you and says, I've been raped. Take us through 5, 10 steps of how to handle it. What do you do?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:27] I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:01:29] That should be the first words out of anybody's mouth. I am so sorry that that happened to you. That's. It's instant validation and it's support in

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:36] one sentence, you know, and is there something that I can do to help you? Are you safe? What can I do to help you feel safe right now?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:47] Okay.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:49] You know, is this something, you know?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:51] Do you.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:51] Do you want to report? Do you want me to go with you when you report? You don't want to report. Okay.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:01:57] Do you want to go to the hospital?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:01:58] Yep.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:01:59] Do you want to. Do you want me to stay with you tonight?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:02:03] Recognizing that, like, it can be really, really difficult, and especially I think your loved one comes to you and says, like, this horrible thing happened to me. It hurts you, you know, and you want to cry with them and for them. And sometimes they need that and sometimes they don't. It's just recognizing that, you know, asking that person and empowering them, asking them, what do you need? What can I do for you? What can I do to help you?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:02:31] You want to do the opposite of what perpetrators do.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:02:34] Absolutely.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:02:35] You want to give them the power. Give them back some power. You want to treat them with respect, and you want to offer help and support. So do the opposite of what a perpetrator would do.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:02:46] And even if you know the perpetrator and you love the perpetrator, this is an example that I have where I said I had to learn the hard way that my response wasn't, I'm sorry, it was like, how could you say that about this person? And I found that in doing so, that actually did more damage to the person who disclosed to me than probably the actual assault.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:03:10] Well, in recognizing the importance when you're the person being disclosed to, especially if it's the very first time that a survivor is saying something, you are really. And it's a huge responsibility, so it might be scary, but you're really setting the tone for the rest of that experience. You're the first step in somebody going from a victim to a survivor or however you want to word it, you're the first contact point for them. So if your response is anything other than loving and supportive and validating and empowering you're not helping.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:03:48] Yeah.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:03:49] And with Lindsay's example of maybe, you know, the perpetrator, maybe it's someone you know. Rapists can be husbands and fathers and teachers and police officers and wonderful people in their normal life. They can still do horrible things. So it doesn't matter. The perpetrator is not your problem. Right then in that moment that a victim who is in their process of becoming a survivor looks at you and says, this is what happened. Forget the connection you have to that person and just let them be the only thing that matters. Don't pick up your phone, obviously don't, you know, look around. Don't shake your head or roll your eyes or say, not him. They are the only thing that matters in that moment.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] Where do you mentioned hospitals? Where do shelters and rape kits and other sorts of things come into play as you're trying to respond to a loved one who's been raped? So we've got the Rape Recovery Center.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:04:47] Yeah, the Rape Recovery center is an inc. Incredible resource.

John Dehlin [01:04:50] Talk about that.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:04:51] Some of the things that they provide as far as survivor assistance is. So say, say you're a secondary survivor. You're somebody who, you know, your loved one is just disclosed to you. And you call the rape crisis line, which is there, and it's great and you should use it if you need it. You know, hi, my best friend is here in front of me and she was raped last night. What can we do? There's a number of different kind of courses that you can take. But like the step by step basically is, you know, if somebody does want to get a rape kit, they get, you know, okay, this is the nearest hospital to you. What the Rape Recovery center does also, and I know that the police departments have advocates as well, but the Rape Recovery center specifically will actually display dispatch a hospital response team member. So that person will go to the hospital, will be there at the hospital with the survivor and will be there from start to finish. There are special nurses. It's the SART team. Sexual assault nurses. Yeah, there we go. It's sane nurses, sexual assault nurse examiners, and those are the individuals who are going to be performing the rape kits.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] And a rape kit involves what?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:06:19] It's a long exam. It's about. It can last from two to four hours. And it's just basically checking all parts of their body, making sure everything's okay, also gathering evidence. So the sexual assault nurses are really an important part of the system because they provide that, you know, patient centered kind of care, compassionate care.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:06:45] Yeah.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:06:45] To victims and Reassure them that their body's okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:48] You know, and if somebody's worried about. Like I did, if somebody's worried about financial cost, there are organizations like in Cache Valley, it's called capsa.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:06:56] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] And they will. They will help provide. It's like, it seems like everything's free, Right. You just go. It gets taken care of. You don't have to worry about the money. They may even provide mental health services afterwards. Take you through the process. It's a very loving and nurturing sexual process.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:07:14] Are provided by the state of Utah.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:07:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:17] Okay. For everyone. That's a statewide.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:07:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] So you don't have to worry about medical expenses.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:07:23] The Utah crime victim's office pays for it. But, you know, one thing is you need to keep in mind is victims are very individual. Everybody's different. Everybody's responding differently to other people.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:07:34] And there's no right or wrong way to respond personally to your own assault.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:07:38] I mean, if somebody comes to you, you should kind of help talk them through it, because if they decide not to go for an exam, you know, that window of opportunity closes fairly shortly.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:07:47] Yeah, I think it's happening.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] To gather evidence that could be used in court. Is that what you mean?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:07:51] Right. So you have to talk them through five days.

John Dehlin [01:07:54] What?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:07:55] You have within five days of your assault to be able to go and have a rape kit performed for five days.

John Dehlin [01:08:02] Until what?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:08:03] Until evidence isn't going to be as okay.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:08:06] And the sooner the better. But you have until five days.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:08:09] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:10] Legally.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:08:11] No, no, no. There's no. There's no magic number.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] It's just. But for it to be useful, generally

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:08:17] within five days, there is some evidence. I had a case that I worked on with an officer in West Valley City where the woman came in 10 days later and went for an exam, and they still found evidence. So it was amazing. So there's no magic number, but generally, the sooner you go. But the only reason I bring this up is you need to talk through that with a victim, because, you know, those doors can be closed and they can't go back and redo it later. Like, oh, man, I wish I would have had an exam. You know, you need to talk through them. What's the pros and cons of that kind of stuff, too? And ultimately it's their decision as to what to do. But I feel like we would be doing them a disservice if we didn't say, have you thought about having an exam? And here's the benefits of it and here's the drawbacks. But in Utah, the way it is now is that you go and have exam. All medical providers are mandatory reporters. They must report to the police if they see an injury that they believe is caused by a crime. So they have to report to law enforcement. The law enforcement will respond. But it's a lot of those exams are taken only for just have the evidence in case the victim decides later to go forward with the case. So it's still something that they should make a decision for themselves. But I think like, I feel like we need to tell them, yeah, the consequences of those decisions.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:09:43] Well, and it's really important to remind survivors as well that you can go in like you're saying, you can go in and get the, the rape kit done and not actually press charges, not actually report.

John Dehlin [01:09:55] Does that mean the alleged perpetrator will never, or the perpetrator will never be potentially notified unless charges are pressed? Like, can you, can, can the police be involved? Can the evidence be gathered but the perpetrator never actually know that that happened or are they going to be informed in some way?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:10:13] Again, every case is so different. But once you report to the police, you know, they have certain duties and it's kind of, they take it from there.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] And so they'll be using their judgment,

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:10:24] they'll be using their judgment on the case. If someone doesn't want to make a statement to the police though, then that's where it ends with the exam.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] Because there's no prosecution without that kit

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:10:34] is kept until the person decides they want to make a statement. So it's really important, I mean, I feel like it's really important to bring up with them the, you know, once, once this five day window passes, the likelihood is there's going to be no evidence that could be gathered. If you go in for an exam now, you know, it doesn't mean you have to give a statement to the police, but at least that evidence is there in case you ever decide to, in case you decide to go forward.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:10:59] This is something that the rape crisis hotline can help you with so you don't have to, you know, worry about all of these things. If you're in this, you know, moment of trauma right after the event, you can call these resources and they can help advise and walk you through that.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:11:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] And even if you decide not to press charges, the evidence can be kept so that if this person, perpetrator, repeat offense, if there's a record of this behavior that helps an ultimate prosecution, having multiple examples.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:11:30] That's why we've had this big crisis in our country. Not just in Utah, but in our country about the backlog rape kits. Because what law enforcement and prosecution was doing, where they were looking at the. At the as. Does this help my case? Well, there's two issues, and they forgot the other issue a lot of times. Does it help my case? That's one issue. But should this profile be uploaded to the nationwide database? Because we know that from the sex offender research that most perpetrators, not all, but most perpetrators of a very serious sexual assault are repeat offenders. So a guy might commit a crime here and then do something in Michigan and then go to Florida, and those will never be connected together. If we don't have this profile uploaded

John Dehlin [01:12:22] and if there's a less than 1% chance of a conviction, you can just keep going kind of.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:12:29] But yeah, there's strength in numbers. And there was a very famous case here in Utah a couple years ago where there were at least five victims in five different jurisdictions. And the cases standing on their own were not, you know, conclusive, not real. You know, I spoke with one of the victims and she said that he would do things like lift up the console in his car and say, see that gun? People do what I tell them to do. Well, is that a direct threat of force? Probably not. But with the. As soon as the cases started getting connected together and he was doing the same thing over and over and over again, then the case was filed. So the more there's strength in numbers. I mean, that's the beauty of the national database, is that I could call up a victim in New York and say, I need you to come here and testify in my case in Utah. And so the more that we have this, I mean, if it would. If it were up to me, every kit should be tested. Just because we don't know in the future what leads are going to happen and what connections can be made. And if we don't have that in a database, it's never going to happen.

John Dehlin [01:13:43] We're not going to give this in any way justice. What are the paths, the decisions to healing for a survivor? Really quickly? We're going to then talk about church stuff.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:13:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] But like, let's not leave out what leads to healing.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:13:58] It's so different for every survivor. For me, one of the things that has helped me heal the most is to become an advocate for other people. There's a quote that kind of floats around, you know, be the person you needed when you were hurting. That was helpful for me. For one of the survivors I spoke to going through the process of filing a police report was really empowering for her. For somebody else, it was moving away from where they were. Counseling is talked about a lot if you have the right counselor, but it's really variable. But feeling your feelings, I think is pretty universal. Go through what you're feeling, work through those and find something as soon as you can that makes you happy. Do that and just kind of get that sense of happiness and power back.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:14:53] And I was going to say we talked about this a little bit on our last podcast about race, but people that have struggled with questions in the Mormon Church, this should be 101 for you, because in our experience with working with Mormons and post Mormons and ex Mormons, for me personally, when I see that this stereotypical angry ex Mormon, it is someone who has struggled with the church. And when they tried to tell people in their lives, people said, you know, you're being wicked, you're studying the wrong things. There's something wrong with you. But it's the people that when they, when they tell people about their doubts and they are supported and love, they're able to move on and be healthy. And so as, as people listening to this podcast, we should be able to sympathize specifically with this. We know what this is like. We know what it's like to tell someone that you're hurting and to not be believed.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] All right, well, that's a great segue. So let's talk about Mormonism as it relates to rape. It's super important that we just not act like only rape happens in Mormonism. It's a global problem.

Sexual Assault Within the LDS Church

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:15:56] No, it's global and it touches everybody everywhere.

John Dehlin [01:15:59] And so we're not going to, like, try and take cheap shots at the church or anything, but why don't we talk about. So you were able to speak with several bishops and maybe stake president?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:16:11] I was, and I had some really interesting things come up that I didn't expect. Honestly, the majority of bishops that I spoke with are begging for better resources. The number one disconnect that I see in speaking with my survivors and in speaking with bishops is that there's not a universal training. There's not how to recognize assault. That's, you know, non traditional, creepy, bad guy in the woods thing. Bishops are not equipped, unless that's their job in their personal life. A lot of bishops come into this not equipped to recognize sexual assault. So I heard from many, many people just, I mean, we know when we talk about doctrine and stuff that the second greatest sin next to murder is sexual sin. And so if you look at it From a perspective of a bishop, every bishop I talk to has a deep love for the members in his ward, all of them. If you have someone sitting across from you who's describing an event that happened, and it sounds to you like maybe this young person is feeling guilty for something that they chose to. To do, your first thought is going to be, I would love to help you go through the repentance process. Because if you, if someone's got, you know, a sin that needs to be repented from, you want to help them, that's a lovely thing that you want to do. But we have to be so careful to listen and make sure that what she's describing isn't. Maybe she was coerced. We need to listen for that language. We need to listen for the situation instead of applying our own filter to it. And that's where I think better training can come into play. And I think that if there was one bishop that we spoke to who talked about in their ward and in their stake, they had a lot of resources because they had had a lot of unfortunate experience. And he remarked that it was really helpful because they knew what to look for and what questions to ask and how to kind of judge that difference between someone who, you know, oh, I shouldn't have done that, and I feel real bad, as opposed to, I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have done that. You know, but he said that we should do this because that's a very subtle difference. But that's the language of someone who's been victimized versus someone who's made a choice.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:18:32] Right. And I love that bishops are saying they need training because the same thing happens in the law enforcement world. You know, we demand a certain response by law enforcement, but we don't often give them the training that allows them to respond appropriately. So basically, everyone, everyone in the world, we don't know what we don't know, right? We don't know that. We didn't know that. That, that it's very common for victims to blame themselves. That that's, that's normal. That's a normal reaction to being assaulted. If bishops don't know that, how can they respond appropriately? I mean, so the key is training. And that's one of the things that I've been doing the last four years is going around the state training about trauma and its effect on people.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] Not the bishops, though, right?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:19:20] So that. No, they haven't asked me. But, you know, maybe the church will become a start by believing Church what do you think?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:19:27] That would be great.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:19:28] That would be awesome.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:19:30] And I think it's important, but they

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:19:34] don't know what they don't know.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] That's a great PR opportunity, actually. So anyone out there listening, make the LDS Church the first official start by believing church. That's a great PR opportunity. What do they have to lose?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:19:49] All joking aside, that would be excellent and it would be a very real step for a lot of the survivors that I spoke to. And it was interesting how few of them blamed their bishops, but it adds a layer of trauma to an already traumatic situation. If you go to the person who is your spiritual leader and you're seeking help and he doesn't understand and then instead says, well, you have sinned and you need to repent from this, it adds a further layer of trauma. And the women that I spoke to who went through church one went through an actual church court for her rape. Another one went through a disciplinary process that was at 19, 20 years old, was way more than she should have had to go through. I'm of the opinion that it's probably never a good option. But even if she had, you know, needed to repent of something, I think it was a bit harsh. And that's up to the individual bishop as they go. But when you add a layer of trauma on top of, of something that's already traumatic, how are those, are those victims, those survivors going to want to move forward with reporting or trying to disclose to somebody else other than their bishop if they're given an added layer of trauma? It's a perfect opportunity to be a supportive and loving and Christlike leader. When you have that woman in that chair, it's one that if we have the resources to see, it would be better.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:21:17] So Lavina Fielding Anderson, she's famous for being one of the September six for being excommunicated. And one of the things that she was disciplined for was collecting stories of sexual abuse in the LDS Church. A lot of people don't know that. And she chronicled all these stories. And I might be getting the details a little bit wrong, but one of the most powerful stories that Lavina collected I remember was it came from a high council member who had been part of a church court who was disciplining an elderly woman who actually requested. Requested that she go through a full court with all the pomp and circumstance. And as she was telling, disclosing this story to the High Council, it became quite clear that she was actually molested. This was years and years ago when she was a child and she had carried this weight. And this High Council member said, wait a minute, we can't discipline this person for this. And the bishop said, no, no, no, she's asked for this. She wants us to disfellowship her or whatever it was. And so they gave out the punishment, and the woman just sobbed with relief. And to me, that story is very telling because I think that what we do, we could do an entire podcast on our sex narratives in the Mormon Church. But this idea that somehow sexual acts change people and taint people and sort of make people not worthy or changes their virtue is so toxic that this idea, it pervades everything into the bishop's office, where a woman comes in and she, you know, has been assaulted, but because there has been an act performed on her, she feels like her virtue is gone, her worth is gone. And so she responds with nothing but shame and guilt. And so, of course, the bishop will read this as she has sinned or she has somehow contributed to her sin. And this is the toxic narrative that we all continue to participate in when we believe that somehow, you know, sex, Sex, the sex act changes a woman's virtue or a man's virtue or their

John Dehlin [01:23:35] value, their worth, or their wholeness or their purity or whatever. The used chewing gum, Right, the chewing gum. The licked cupcake. The nail in the board.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:23:45] Yeah. I remember being taught when I went to young women's that you should rather lose your life than your virtue.

John Dehlin [01:23:51] Right. Better come home in a pine box.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:23:54] Yeah. It would be better for you to die during that ass than to lose your virtue.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] So for current and future bishops and stake presidents that listen to this podcast, what are some of the quick, don't you know, Things that they should be careful not to do, that maybe are common, Commonly done, I think.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:24:13] Listen, first, I think that we have an idea in our heads. And again, not a man, not a bishop. I don't know what that feels like, but. But I know that when you have someone who's hurting, it is a human response for good people to want to fix it. Don't try to fix it. Listen, first, figure out what really happened. Ask. Ask questions that allow her to talk. Don't ask questions that make her describe.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] Yeah, talk about that. Talk about that. What are the wrong questions to ask?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:24:47] Don't ask her what she was wearing. Don't ask her if they had been dating. Don't ask her if she willingly kissed him beforehand. Don't ask.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:24:54] Don't ask her if she orgasm'd. That happens a lot in bishop's Office,

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:24:58] thank you for bringing up.

John Dehlin [01:24:59] Talk about that for a second. That seems like a strange thing to bring up.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:25:02] Of all of the women that I spoke to who went through church discipline, the ones that were asked if they orgasmed while being raped and responded in the affirmative, those ones were sent to discipline. And that should.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] The idea is if you enjoy it, it must not have been rape.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:25:19] That should shock us. And it is shocking. But we need to remember that we live in a very sex negative culture, the United States, not just Utah. We don't talk about the mechanics of sex much at all. And people assume that to have an orgasm, you must be enjoying it. And it's actually a physiological. It's a physiological response. And when women are raped very frequently, they will have an orgasm. It's not something they can control. And the survivors that I spoke to who did were horrified and then immediately internalized. I must be enjoying this. This is my fault. So if you are a bishop, that is a question that just shouldn't get asked at all.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:26:04] Especially children who are molested. This is a question. Common shame factor.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:26:08] Well, one of the things that I train police officers and I would encourage anybody, anybody that's hearing from a victim is let them control the details that are given. In other words, don't go in there with a list of questions. You know, what time was it? And what did you have to drink? I mean, all of these lists of questions, throw those away. Just go in there and sit and let them control the narrative because that's for police officers. That's going to get the best and most accurate detail for people who are in a supportive role for victims, that's going to allow them to tell their story. And sometimes victims, again, this is another way we can measure success. Sometimes victims just need to be heard. Often I would have a case where I get a good resolution and I'm real excited and the defendant's gonna plead guilty and I go tell the victim and okay, he's gonna. And then the victim's like, but wait a minute, I want to tell my story. And I was like, what? That took me by surprise. Sometimes they just want to be heard. They want to be able to tell their story and have someone look at them and say, thank you for telling me that story. I'm sorry this happened to you. I mean, they just want to be heard.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:27:21] And the bishop's not a detective. That's not his role.

Guest 2 [01:27:24] His role.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] Neither is the parent.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:27:25] Right, Right.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:27:26] Neither's the parent. And I can understand, you know, I have young kids and I Could understand wanting to figure out what happened and who did this and how to get justice. But, you know, when people are disclosing this to a bishop, that is not the role of the bishop. And unfortunately, sometimes I think bishops and. And this, they come by this honestly. We. We give them this mantle, we give them this permission.

John Dehlin [01:27:47] Judge Israel. Right.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:27:48] They have to be a judge of Israel, and they have to somehow bring judgment, justice to this woman, meaning she

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:27:53] has to rip off the priesthood. What do you think? I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] That might help.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:27:57] Just a side thought. I don't know

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:28:00] if we think that a woman needs to somehow heal by atoning for her own assault or, you know, and this is. This has come up in the recent BYU case. If a woman is drinking alcohol, committing a sin, and she is assaulted, then they want to address these sins, right?

Guest 2 [01:28:19] Yep.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:28:19] And it further victimizes the person. And I think we really. We've gotten in this sort of. I guess it's this really codependent place in Mormonism where we think we have to fix everybody's problems. And really what that's doing is creating a larger. A larger problem, a larger system. And if we want it, if we want to fix a problem, we need to fix the system, not the individual victims.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:28:40] And we talk about leadership roulette, and you never know what kind of bishop you're going to have. I got really lucky. I had the best bishop ever. When I was going through my disclosure process for my assaults, I didn't even realize I had been raped because it was coercive. I had no idea. And every woman that I spoke to who had coercive or spousal rape didn't know it was a thing until someone told them. I had a bishop listening to me spilling my guts on something completely, completely unrelated. As you can tell, I like to talk. I went off on a tangent. He stopped me, opened his drawer, pulled out a pamphlet, slid it across to me and said, you are being abused. This is not okay. There are great bishops out there. There are bishops who. Who probably mean well but do the wrong thing. And then there are bishops who do the right thing, if we can. If we can. For those who are listening, who may be a bishop or know a bishop, if you can just come away with this, from this, with the concept of I've got to listen better, and I have to hear her. I have to hear what's going on, not just what she's saying or if she's sitting in a posture feeling guilty. I have to look past that and figure out what really happened to her? That's the takeaway that I'd like to see.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:29:54] And they need to do a lot more.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:29:56] Thank you.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:29:57] What do you need? Rather than what should I do?

John Dehlin [01:30:01] As a How do we get justice?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:30:02] Yeah, how do we get justice? What do you need? What can I help you with? Because every victim is very different and they're at different stages.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:30:11] And this isn't just about bishops or BYU officials. Although get your act together. BYU and college campuses. But this is a larger cultural idea and we've talked a lot about women. And what I want to talk about first for a minute is we talked about what women can do to keep safe. But how much time and energy do we give our daughters in protecting them versus how much time we tell our sons about consent and about the systems that make them feel like they have entitlement over women's bodies and that maybe it's romantic to go kiss a woman who's upset, who is clearly not ready to be kissed. Those kind of things. How in church women, I took so many young women self defense classes, you know, and sure, it was great. How much equal time are we giving to young men to talk about these issues, to talk about, you know, what you're entitled to and how you're supposed to act with a woman and what the system is? I think we're afraid to do this because if we talk about consent with boys, then we're worried that that means we're giving them permission somehow to be promiscuous. And it's such a twisted, messed up way of thinking. And I think that if we want to talk about the system and the culture, we need to give equal attention to teaching our young men and our young boys about consent, about their bodies, how their bodies function, and about how women's bodies function. And I think that that is a huge issue that most people don't even think about.

Reforming Mormon Teachings on Consent

John Dehlin [01:31:48] What if we cut in half the lessons on pornography and included lessons about consent in our young men's young women's discussion? Wouldn't that be amazing?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:31:59] Seriously?

John Dehlin [01:32:00] Okay, yes. Everyone listening to this podcast, include lessons on consent in your manuals. And nothing to lose, right? Everything to gain.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:32:09] It can start as early as, you know, nursery. I have a two year old boy and he likes to roughhouse. And his sister is four and not even a full head taller than he is and very petite. And we do a lot of, hey, if she's not having fun, you need to stop and then write immediately to her. And if he's not having fun, you need to stop. That's consent. That's the foundation for consent. And you can talk about these things without having to sit down with your kid and talk about sex. You can talk about consent from a place of, you know, everybody needs to be having fun together, or we stop.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:32:47] And it's not just about sex. Which is exactly what you're saying. I remember going, I got invited to the homecoming dance, UHS date. Went on the date with this. With this person. We're driving up. You know, I'm a good Mormon girl. I. I shake hands at the door because that's the kind of girl I am. And we drive up to the parking lot of my dorm, and the date is over. We're sitting in the car, and I'm like, thanks for the dinner. Thanks for the dance. And he says, is that it? Thank you for the dinner. He locked the door and he said, you're gonna kiss me good night? And I said, no, I'm not gonna do that. And he actually tried to grab me and pull me closer to him, and he said, I paid for your dinner, and I took you to this dance. You're gonna give me a kiss. And I was like, no, I'm not. And I was able to get out of the car. But this idea that somehow you are owed something, you know, in this dating culture, that's a huge problem. And so when we're talking about consent to young men, we're not saying that you have to teach men that they have to have sex before marriage. We're talking about teaching them what they are actually entitled to versus what they're not.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:33:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:59] So for people who are frustrated with the church about any number of reasons, it's easy to make BYU a target and to just, like, use this story as a way to sort of stick it to byu. So let's try and be fair. Just talk about really briefly. I'm going to sort of advocate devil's advocate point of view and to say, look, everyone signs the honor code, right? Everyone knows what they're getting into. I don't think anybody at BYU wants people to get raped. I think they want to help survivors heal. I think you tell me if I'm wrong. The controversy is around the fact that if someone is raped and reports it at the right or wrong place, the details regarding compliance with the honor code can be reported to the honor code office and then used to evaluate their continuing standing at the university. What's wrong with that?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:34:57] Wait, really quick. I just want to say, to give credit, you saw me, like, jump to the Microphone. Today, the Salt Lake Tribune reported similar problems at the University of Utah. So in the spirit of fairness.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:35:07] Thank you.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:35:08] I think what's wrong with it is that victims, survivors, wherever stage in the journey they are. They're disclosing. That is hard. That is hard. And the. Not surprisingly to me, the survivors I spoke to who had their sexual assaults happen at byu, none of them disclosed while they were there because they were afraid of losing their education. So we've created a culture that kind of makes victims not want to report, which lets perpetrators get away with it. And there have been reports of guys doing it to multiple girls because they know nobody's going to say anything. So my thing with the whole BYU thing, I mean, you sign the honor code and you make a promise to follow the rules. If you break the rules, you know there will be consequences. That is completely separate. There is no way in my mind when someone who's coming in to report a rape, I honestly believe that we should leave anything else out on the table. You need to support her, you need to listen to her. You need to make sure that she's heard if you have to, because it's BYU and it's the rules. Go through an honor code thing later. That needs to not happen. At the same time, we need to be only focused on her assault and recording those details. If something else comes up later, that's different. But I just don't think that. I don't think that it's an environment conducive to wanting to report. If you're worried that they're going to take down. Oh, and by the way, I did have a beer with them beforehand.

John Dehlin [01:36:37] I don't know that it's going to be a consolation for them to know. Well, in six months, I may get kicked out of the university.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:36:44] It's not so. It's not. But I've had enough people saying, you know, well, but the honor code. And we're really into that right now. But, you know, I mean, if that's gonna have to be a thing, if

John Dehlin [01:36:53] they're gonna have to deal, at least delay it.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:36:55] At least delay it. And at least don't sit there and be like, and how many beers did you have? And what hour of the night were you?

John Dehlin [01:37:01] Focus on the victim first.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:37:03] Victim first.

John Dehlin [01:37:04] Until the victim's healthy and safe.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:37:06] And then, you know, frankly, if you're reporting this to the police, they don't have any reason to tell BYU what you went through.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:37:13] Yep.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:37:14] If you're reporting this to Title nine, while that is a university office That's a government thing. I don't particularly miss my opinion. I don't particularly feel like they need to disclose that to the Honor Code office. If you tell your BYU bishop, he is, you know, kind of required to tell the Honor Code office of violations at his discretion. So, I mean, I think that it depends on where you disclose. If you go to the Honor Code office and say, you know, I experienced an assault and this is what I was doing, then that's their job, the honor code part of it. But I do not think for one second that someone who's disclosing an assault, especially for the first time, to an authority, maybe they've told a roommate or a friend, but the first time to an authority, which is terrifying. I do not think that they should have to worry about having their education held over their head.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:38:03] And I just want to say I've never been to byu, but I've seen a lot of people in this discussion defend the honor Code. And I'm just going to come out and say that I think the Honor Code's priorities are screwed up. I'm sorry. If you look, you can go to YouTube right now, and there is a bunch of YouTube videos where some guys think it's fun to videotape, you know, stunts and prank videos. And there's this famous one where this.

Guest 2 [01:38:29] This.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:38:29] These guys film themselves kissing women on campus, just randomly kissing people on campus. And when we're talking about assault, you can see these women are taken off guard. This is what we're basically talking about, is sexual assault.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:38:41] It is.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:38:42] I highly doubt anyone involved in that video has been disciplined by the Honor Code. And so this idea that we're going to worry about someone taking a drink of alcohol when they're sexually assaulted versus some of the other things that go on on campus, it's just. It's backwards to me. It's archaic. It's shamey. It's having the opposite effect. It's old, and they need to update it.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:39:12] I just wanted to chime in with my perspective as a prosecutor. We have prosecutorial discretion, and I would recommend that to anybody who's dealing with sexual assault in whatever setting. If a victim comes into my office and tells me, yeah, and I smoked marijuana with this guy that night, and, you know, and then this horrible thing happened and tells me the whole story of that. I am never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to charge her with smoking marijuana. And I won't charge him either if the only way I know about that is because of the report of the sexual assault I am never going to charge her with gun because it is a matter of discretion and a priority from our society to deal, to encourage, not only don't discourage, but to encourage victims to report sexual assault. Sexual assault is a devastating thing to individuals and to our society. And we need to make it safe for victims to come in and report it. And so I have never. I Never once in 26 years, and I have never once heard of any other prosecutor anywhere charging that person with the minor infraction that happened or charging the other person with the minor infraction that happened just because it's more of a priority for us to deal with sexual assault for those individuals and for our society.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:40:38] And I think if they're going to come after students who have broken the honor code and then experienced a sexual assault, they absolutely need to go to the student who committed the assault and go after them with the same thing. I don't know if that's happening. It seems to not be, but it needs to be, which I think is wrong. I don't think you should come after victims. Same thing that you just said. But if you're going to, it has to go to the perpetrator too.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:41:02] And sorry, this just makes me so mad. But people will say, but it's a private institution and people signed up. It's a private school, so these are the rules and you signed up for it. If that is your defense, you are effectively saying, I am going to prioritize a policy over a victim. That I am saying that this policy matters more than bringing rapists to justice. And that is shameful and we need to move away from that kind of thinking. If it's a private school and that's their policy, the policy is part of the problem. It's defending rapists and we need to fix it. So, sorry, that's my last rant.

Community Organizations and Resources

John Dehlin [01:41:43] All right, so I want to get up the various organizations that are here. Before we do, are there any final points we want to make or topics we want to cover before we invite up the various organizations and before we take a little bit of Q and A, Any other sort of crucial high level points that we've missed?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:42:04] Love and listen first.

John Dehlin [01:42:06] All right.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:42:07] And let's be hopeful. I believe that good things can happen. And the more that we are able to talk about this in our society, the more things are going to change. So I would rather go forward with a positive approach of, you know, we can change things, we can make this a priority. So I try to put, put a positive spin on it whenever I'm talking with police officers or prosecutors or victim advocates or anybody in the system. I'm always like, what can we do from now forward?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:42:39] I want to touch base on just two things. One, for everybody who's listening, everybody who's here, everybody on our panel, we definitely use female pronouns, predominantly because women are 95% are survivors. But understand that there are men that are survivors too. And if you're listening, please don't feel like you're forgotten about your stories are important and we hope that you get the help that you're needing as well and all of these resources that you're going to be hearing about, all of the people that are here so lovingly donating their time, they're available to everybody. So it doesn't matter who you are or who you identify as. We just want to be.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:43:26] Well, and I would say I'd like to say something even more controversial is that we also care about perpetrators. We do, because if we're not addressing them and their needs and what they need to do and be working on, then we're missing a huge part of the problem. So we need to, for domestic violence or sexual assault, you know, we need to address their needs as well. And sometimes it involves prosecution. I like to think of my job as giving people incentive to change their behavior, but we need to address them also or we're going to be missing a huge part of the problem. Anything else?

John Dehlin [01:44:11] Okay. All right. For those who are here representing organizations that provide support to rape and assault victims, could you please come up to the microphone right here? Please tell us about your organization and please feel free to add any perspective that you feel like we could benefit from as you after you talk about your organization because we want to make sure and give you guys all the exposure you deserve.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:44:43] Thank you. Thanks for the time. Thanks for inviting us down to be part of the community conversation. My name is Deanne Tilton. I founded an organization called Talk to a Survivor. I'm a victim of sexual violence from childhood through young adulthood. I was sexually abused by my father growing up within he was in a position of low level authority within the Mormon religion. I was stalked and voyeur'd as a teenager also by a male in my ward. And then I was raped twice in college. A couple points I do want to make is that experiencing sexual violence as a child makes you multiple times more vulnerable and likely to experience re victimization later in life. 3 to 13 times depending on the studies that you look at. So this is about when a child is violated in Those formative years, they really lose their ability to consent if they don't get the help and the treatment that they need early on. We need to understand that. And I organized talk to a survivor to do a couple of things. One is to mobilize our community to end sexual violence, which is 100% preventable. Sexual violence happens because of the choices that offenders make, choices that we all make in terms of responding to it, risks that we're willing to take, stick our necks out or not. When we see things that look creepy but maybe aren't abusive, what do I say? Should I intervene? And the support that we provide or don't provide to people who are sticking their necks out and calling people out when they are crossing, say, boundaries, whether that's with children or just someone in a position that's less powerful than they are. So I went back to school and got my master's in human development and social policy and finished last August. Part of that was to look at the history. What drives me is, why is it like this? Why is it like, why did I have four years to get to court after the last offense of my dad offended me against and I was dependent on him for my survival. Why was it like that? So I found a lot of great information. Looking at our laws in Utah and the law books and history and social movements at the time. One thing I wanted, I came away with. I'm much more optimistic about where we're headed. We are in a better place than ever been to prevent sexual violence. Let's remember that in 1993, you were still legal to rape your wife here in Utah. So I went back and looked at the laws, and it would say, having sexual intercourse with a female, not the wife. That phrase not the wife is in our law books up through to 1993. Males are nowhere in our laws about being a victim. So this is really great news. So I'm all about bringing Start by Believing into Utah, educating the entire state of Utah. This is about all of us preparing that we're going to get a disclosure. As the taboo of sexual assault goes down and talking about it, we need to be prepared. We're going to get a disclosure. Those who've been assaulted are most likely to go to someone they know and trust first. And how that person responds is vital to whether they ever speak of it again, whether they consider getting mental health therapy that they so desperately need, whether they report it. So practice these phrases with me. I believe you.

John Dehlin [01:48:51] I believe you.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:48:52] I'm so sorry this happened.

John Dehlin [01:48:54] I'm so Sorry this happened.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:48:56] This was not your fault.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] This was not your fault.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:48:59] What can I do to help you?

John Dehlin [01:49:00] What can I do to help you?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:49:01] You just rip those off a few times, practice with your friends, your neighbors. And then you're not going to be deer in the headlights. Someone comes to you, oh my God, I'm a survivor. I don't want to believe this shit happens. So, you know, you need to practice. You don't have the deer in the headlights. Oh my gosh. Look. And let me tell you, survivors and victims and advocates, they're hypersensitive, sensitive to this kind of body language of like, I'm stunned. I don't know what to say that is not supportive to them. So I would encourage you to look at some of these posters. Read, read the the Start by Believing why it's important. There are pledges here that folks have taken. We have hundreds of pledges in Utah now. We have survivors coming out who's seen Jackie Buskupski the other day, identify as a survivor and take the Start by Blue pledge. That happens Saturday. So if you go to Start by Believing Utah, it's a Facebook page. You will see people in positions of authority and power. Survivors that you would never guess are a survivor. I'm wearing this button. You'd never know otherwise. You need to see survivors that are doing well. Especially other survivors need to see survivors doing well. Doesn't mean we're not struggling. Doesn't mean we're doing well 24 7. But other survivors need to see survivors. We need to see the scope of the harm done and the prevalence. Anyway, thanks for your time. I'm very encouraged. Feel free to come check out our take the pledge. We've got the video camera. We would love to put you on. Start By Believing Utah, you say my name is John Doe, Jane Doe. I work for such and such or I'm a dad or a, you know, both. And when someone comes to me and says that they were sexually assaulted, I start by believing. We upload that this is about boosting morale and coming down on taking a firmer stancer, firmer stance on those lower level offenses. We wouldn't have this conversation two decades ago about acquaintance rapes, that marriage rapes. We wouldn't even be having this conversation. Thank you, byu. Thank you for the survivors that felt supported by the media. You know, survivors coming out should not be. This was so brave and this was so courageous. We will arrive when it doesn't take me courage to say I'm a survivor because I will know that I am supported and believed.

Guest 2 [01:51:32] My name is Katie Dobson. I'm a registered nurse with Wasatch Forensic Nurses. The rape kits that you were talking about, that's what we do. We are a mobile team. We respond to all the hospital emergency departments in Salt Lake county as well as Mountain Point in Lehigh. Now, with the exception of the VA hospital and Primary Children's, we provide sexual assault exams for ages 14 and up. We respond with an adverse from the Rape Recovery center who comes to fill out paperwork to get the visit covered and for support. Like they said, you have the option to get the exam and not talk to law enforcement. We try to give back control to the victim in making choices in what they want done and what they do not want done. That is their option. So you can also call the Rape Crisis line to get a referral as to where you should go. In Salt Lake county, there's also the Family justice center that provides exams. In Utah county, the Merrill Gapmire Clinic at Utah Valley Regional Medical center provides exams there. In the northern counties, there's a program called New SANE that does the same sort of mobile team that we do. So if you ever are a victim of sexual assault, you can go to any hospital in Salt Lake county, and they will call us out, preferably within five days of the assault so that we can get the best evidence. And this wasn't mentioned about the rape kits, but when you get a sexual assault exam, we also offer preventative medications for sexually transportation, transmitted infections and pregnancy prevention.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:53:23] Thank you.

Guest 2 [01:53:30] I feel shorter than the other ladies, even with my heels on. So my name is Lauren McNamara. I'm the Communications director with an organization called Restore Our Humanity. You may recognize the name from our work with LGBT rights, also with bringing forth a lawsuit that brought gay marriage originally to Utah.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:53:50] Currently.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:53:51] Thank you.

Guest 2 [01:53:52] Currently, though, we are changing, changing our scope a little bit because we are a human rights organization, and so we want to address all vulnerable populations. So our current project is working specifically with sexual assault and child abuse within the LDS community and within the Boy Scouts of America, because we're addressing how organizations play a role within rape culture and what they can do to change that and to change the outcomes for our survivors and for the occurrence of these assaults later on down the road. So what we're doing is three things. We are offering survivors within these two bodies. Organizational communities. If you were a survivor of sexual assault within either of those organizations, meaning that your perpetrator was a member of those organizations, someone in authority or your assault, whether or not the perpetrator was a member, was kept from law enforcement in some way by someone within one of those organizations. We're offering a support group specifically for those populations. So if you want to come forward and have your story told, we have documentarians, we have media, we have people who want to hear your story. We are a start by believing organization. We love Deanne and her work and we're really excited, actually, about a training that she's offering for the community as well. You don't have to come forward in that way if you're not ready to disclose your story to the world, that's completely okay. We're also offering a support group for survivors specifically in these communities because it is a little bit different. It's a little bit more challenging to come forward when your assault took place within your trusted community, within your church body, within, you know, an organization like Boy Scouts, where maybe it was your Boy Scout leader. And you, you know, you really felt like you looked up to that, that gentleman and you're not really sure how to go about, about getting that addressed. So we're offering a support group there. We're also offering a support for secondary survivors. And you heard that term used earlier. And I'll just reiterate, that's family members of our survivor. So if it was your. Your son, your daughter, your sister, right, Someone like that. Because for you to be able to be the most supportive, you need support too, right? The third thing we're doing is we're offering legal consultation. So some of you maybe saw John had a really great podcast with Matt Long, who is a lawyer who specializes and sexual assault. He has come on board with us and has put together a team of lawyers who will meet with anyone who likes to talk about what happened, to talk about what the options are in terms of legal, in terms of justice. And that's not just the criminal system, right? That's not just the guilty or not guilty. That's also the civil system. A lot of times we forget about the civil system and its role in these kinds of. In any kind of criminal activity. So, you know, we offer for you to sit down, you know, with them and just talk about it, and they'll talk with you about what your rights are in terms of moving forward in that way. And the great thing is you can sign up with us, and it doesn't mean you want to participate in anything. It just means that we're going to let you know about what we're doing. So it's kind of like a smorgasbord board of Support. We're kind of hoping. So if you're there and you want to participate in this piece over here, but you really don't want to participate in this piece over here, that's great and amazing. We're going to support you in that. Whatever aspect you want to participate in, at whatever level and whatever level of anonymity, we want to support you in that. And everything is confidential unless you have specifically said you want your story told.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:57:39] Right.

Guest 2 [01:57:39] Because there are those are who who feel that having their story told really helps with the healing process, but then there are those who aren't there and that's fine. So to close, if you are a survivor, we have a couple different ways you can reach out to us. We have a website, restoreofhumanity.org there's a registration form on there. There's also a hotline you can call. So if the registration form seems kind of confusing or you're just not really sure about it, feel free to call the hotline and you can talk to one of us directly and register that way as well.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:58:08] Awesome. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] Thank you, thank you.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:58:10] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:58:10] Laura.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:58:14] Hi, I was just invited to speak.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:58:15] Thank you.

Guest 2 [01:58:16] Real quickly.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:58:17] My name is Laura Perry.

Guest 2 [01:58:18] I'm a clinical social worker and have

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:58:20] started a support group around Faith Transition and Faith Crisis and Faith Doubt. I'm going to leave some flyers in the back.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:58:26] More at the healing group in Midvale.

Guest 2 [01:58:28] If you'd like more information, please reach out.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [01:58:30] Thank you.

Audience Questions and False Reporting

John Dehlin [01:58:34] So I want to make sure people get a chance to come up and ask a. Or make a comment. I'm gonna ask the first question, if it's okay. This is another one of those kind of tougher questions. I had a friend come up to me and say, I was in high school, I was dating a girl. We were dating for a long time. We were sexually intimate, was fully consensual. Then later she started talking to the bishop, started feeling guilty. Parents found out, and she ended up changing the story, saying that it was rape and not consensual. When I was there, I know it was fully consensual. Is this something that happens and is it a problem? And how do we deal with it, knowing that we want to start by believing, is it possible that someone could do this, and then someone's life could be ruined by being painted as a perpetrator when in reality they weren't? And how do we deal with that? Or do we just ignore that and say, that's an unfortunate casualty of, you know, a bigger purpose?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:59:41] Is it possible?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:59:42] Yes.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:59:46] Is it Probable? No. Do you want to speak to that?

Kathryn Jones-Porter [01:59:51] The. One of the rape myths that exists in our society is that most sexual assault reports are false. And the FBI, every research project that's ever been done shows virtually the same thing. False reports of sexual assault are the same as false reports of any other crime. 5% is the most common. The studies vary between 5 and 8%, but it's the same as false reports of burglaries or false reports of a robbery, or false reports of property being stolen from your house. It's the same as every other crime. We somehow have this idea in our head that, you know, all women are just making this stuff up and that, again, that makes us feel safer. It doesn't really happen, they just make it up. But it's not true. It's a myth that we would like to believe that makes us feel safer. But most reports of sexual assault are true. And that's why we start by believing. We don't necessarily end by believing. We follow in the criminal justice system, at least we follow the evidence wherever it takes us, but we always start by believing because that's the. We give the same respect to sexual assault victims that we do to any other type of victim. We don't say to a bank robbery victim, hey, you had all these piles of money there, you must have wanted to be robbed, right? We don't say that to any other type of victim, but we say it to sexual assault victims every time. And it shows our bias, not the fact that those reports are false. Are there false reports? Yes, I've had them. I've had false reports of sexual assault

John Dehlin [02:01:30] and people falsely accused.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:01:31] They are extremely rare.

John Dehlin [02:01:35] What do we do for those instances, though, where they are rare?

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:01:38] Well, I can't quite answer that question, but I can tell you that. But from my personal experience with. And I've had the unfortunate luck of having more than one sexual assault, one of my perpetrators actually said to my face, you can tell people whatever you want because they're going to believe you because you're playing a victim. And I know that I didn't rape you, and I know that I didn't do that. And I remember just looking at him going, you're right, I can tell people whatever I want. But the thing is, it happened. And that was my experience. I firmly believe that a lot of men who are involved in situations of intimate partner rape, spousal rape, or coercive rape don't think of themselves as a

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:02:32] rapist because they believe the myths, too.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:02:35] Yeah, exactly.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:02:36] That's the Thing. Victims and perpetrators also believe the myths. Well, I didn't hold a gun to her head, you know, I just threatened to get her kicked out of school if she reported. I mean, they believe the myths as well. We need to ask.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:02:50] Well, I asked her five times, and

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:02:51] she did say yes on the fifth time, so.

John Dehlin [02:02:55] Yeah, so asking excessively is inappropriate.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:02:58] That's not consent. That's coercion.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:03:01] So I have to do this thing really quick. Your chapstick, can I have it? Was that consent anyone? No, she didn't say yes.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:03:15] She just was.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:03:15] Okay,

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:03:19] now hold on to your chapstick. And as many times as I ask, I want you to say no. Can I have your chapstick?

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:03:25] No.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:03:26] Come on, please, can I have it?

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:03:27] No.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:03:28] But you just gave it to me.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:03:29] No, I'm not comfortable with that.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:03:30] But you gave it to me, like, two seconds ago. Why can't I just have it?

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:03:33] Changed my mind.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:03:34] I'm sorry, but I really need it. If you don't give me that chapstick, I'm gonna kill your kid.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:03:42] Get your own chapstick.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:03:45] But that's. That's. That's.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:03:47] The truth of it, though, is that if you're asking 15 times and. And you're. You're phrasing in all these different ways, and like we said, it's not an umbrella statement. It's not a. Like alternating. Its escalating, violating all of these things. This is not. This is not consent.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:04:03] I do want to say I have personal experience with a false accusation. Someone in my life was falsely accused because of the shame issue. And that actually did play into how I responded later on when people disclosed to me because of this experience. And I think, like you said, it does happen. It's possible. But statistically, sometimes speaking, the odds are way against this. And in this particular case, it never went to anything legal. It was just rumors and whispers for a while. And again, to me, it's a symptom of this larger culture, which also shames victims, which is that when we make the act of sex such a shameful thing for, you know, young adults who engage consensually in sex to feel so bad that they have to come up with any other way to explain this, that is not the problem of those kids. That's the problem of the collective shame that we heap upon them. And that's something that I think we need to continually address.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:05:03] And for the guy out there who's all, yeah, definitely proud. For the guy out there who's concerned, like, oh, man. But, like, what if man, what if something happens? And what if some girl decides later she's ashamed and she tells everyone I raped her just to speak to you for a second. I know that's gotta be terrifying. That's gotta be a fear. And I mean, not to be like, well, look at us. We fear being raped on a very real basis. And I'm sorry that we're in a culture that as a whole country, that that's a fear. But really the only way around it is just maintain consistent, enthusiastic, wholehearted consent. And, you know, and if it gets to the point where you think perhaps that person that you had that sexual relationship with, maybe getting to a place where she or he is afraid and maybe feeling like they have to lie and say it was rape, stick with them, support them, and be like, I'm sorry you're scared. I still care about your emotions, too. Make sure that you maintain that. And that. I mean, there's not really anything you can do. If someone's going to lie about you, they will lie about you. But the likelihood of that happening is so slim.

John Dehlin [02:06:18] Thank you. Only at the microphone. That's. All right. Did you have a quick comment? And then you can

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:06:27] just very quickly, again, from a historical point of view, rape back in the biblical times was about the daughter's value as a virgin so that her reproduction wouldn't be called into question. This is about controlling reproduction, people. So this was, oh, if she's a virgin, then I know that my seeds are going to be mine, and then my efforts to keep those seeds alive are going to be just for my lineage. And rape wasn't about the woman's violation, but about ripping off the dad that she was supposed to be a virgin. So if we can get away from. In particular, it's more a female. And within the religious context, if we can get away from the idea that if you're a virgin, you're somehow worth more than if you have had sex, we're going to naturally address a lot of this. I'm gonna have to lie because my purity is now. Because the stakes are really high for people whose value is that they're a virgin.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:07:29] Yep.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:07:29] Unintended consequence.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:07:30] Yep.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:07:31] You don't lose your virginity. You don't take someone's virginity. That's a myth.

Guest 2 [02:07:35] And.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:07:35] And we got to get away from that language, too, because that assumes that there's a loss.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:07:45] So this just goes back to the whole false reporting. Thank you. False reporting. And like we've mentioned, you know, it is definitely possible that people could unfortunately report falsely and that does do a lot of harm. But something that me as a survivor, something my story that I know is unfortunately similar to so many other people's stories, is what most people don't see after the report. And I didn't expect it to happen.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:08:13] But it's like, I reported, I lost my job for reporting.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:08:16] I got kicked out of my home for reporting. I lost several members of my family, my friends. So it's like my lifeline was gone. You know what I mean? So I'm just saying that if people understood that that kind of stuff came along with it, they would.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:08:32] They would think a little bit more

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:08:33] along the lines of maybe this person does have something valid to say and does have a valid concern because there's a lot on the line. Absolutely. You know, when you do say that.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:08:43] Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. So I just was kind of raising

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:08:54] my hand to say I'm curious. I'm actually a little surprised to hear that the false reporting is as low as you're saying. Having grown up in the Mormon faith, and I have. I'm a secondary survivor in a couple of really difficult scenarios. So I'm 100% supportive of believing first

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:09:23] and all of that.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:09:25] At the same time, I'm wondering if there's any way to study or any way to know if being in a culture like the Mormon culture could dramatically increase the. Incidence.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:09:45] Sorry, I'm looking for the word, the

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:09:46] incidence of false reporting, because I remember

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:09:49] as a teenage girl waking up with nightmares that I'd had sex in my dream and I had to now report to a bishop. And I'm not saying that I would have gone on and, like, falsely reported if, you know, if I'd gotten sexually active at that time. But I'm just saying that level of shame and fear, could that possibly increase the opportunity or the numbers. Could that inflate the numbers of cases where there is actually false reporting happening? Absolutely.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:10:25] I just want to say, anecdotally though, this is just my personal experience, I think that that same shame can have an adverse effect to actual events. So I talked about this false reporting situation in my life. That's one example. But I have many more examples where women were assaulted and instead, because of the shame, interpreted it as a sin. And I think that that's a more common response. And so I don't know that the natural reaction is to falsely accuse, because as. As this brave survivor said just a minute ago that you have a lot to lose when you come out with an accusation like that. I think the more common Response is to take on the shame and say, I'm a sinner and go through the repentance process.

Guest 2 [02:11:10] Thank you.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:15] Hi.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:11:18] I was a Mormon for a very

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:20] long time, Very, very good Mormon. And I don't want to give my name publicly.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:11:25] But there's one thing that hasn't come

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:28] up tonight, and I kind of hope

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:29] that just because there are some people

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:32] I know that this is still the

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:11:34] case for them, that if the people they are reporting to are part of

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:39] the problem and they may be abused by some of those people, Spotlight brought that to light.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:46] And I hope people will find the

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:11:48] courage to not question themselves and to

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:52] not think that because it came from

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:11:54] a source, like a person in power,

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:11:57] the person you're supposed to report to, that they need to go further into

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:12:03] that religion or further.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:12:05] There's something even more painful and deep

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:12:08] about that that I've seen happen and

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:12:11] happen to myself as well.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:12:14] And I kind of just wanted to bring that up. And I don't know what you have

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:12:17] to say about it, but it isn't.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:12:19] Thank you.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:12:20] Thank you for bringing that up. And I think that that is important. If there is anybody out there who is facing issues with sexual assault or sexual abuse from someone in a position of power in the church, please know that you are loved and supported and that there are people out there who will help you. It may take disclosing to multiple people. And as survivors, we understand how difficult that is. But please disclose until you find someone who can help you.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:12:48] Well, and we've got restore your restorehumanity. So that's what's going on. We've got some people who are going to champion for you.

Closing Remarks and Key Phrases

John Dehlin [02:12:57] All right, well, for me, this has been a very informative and important, powerful discussion. Let's practice the phrases again. I believe you.

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:13:10] I believe you.

John Dehlin [02:13:11] I'm so sorry this has happened.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:13:13] I'm so sorry. It's not your fault.

John Dehlin [02:13:15] It's not your fault.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:13:16] It's not your fault. What can I do to help?

John Dehlin [02:13:18] What can I do to help? Can you remember that?

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:13:20] And don't assault. And if you have, don't do it anymore. Stop. Yeah.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:13:25] Don't rape.

John Dehlin [02:13:26] All right, all right. If you don't mind, please take a moment to join with me to thank Aubrey, Catherine, Lindsay and Donna for being on our panel today. We also want to thank those who have come to support restore humanity. Start by believing Utah Rape Recovery center and all those others that are mentioned.

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:13:56] That's the same nurse that's here.

John Dehlin [02:13:58] Yes. Let's thank them for the work that they do. And I'll just end by thanking all of you for coming. We wouldn't do this if we didn't have people show up. And I know that topics, other sorts of topics sometimes are often more popular. And so it really means a lot when some of these topics that are less discussed people show up for. So can we give them a round of applause for showing up? Thank you guys for showing up. I'll just close by. Again, thanking club cafe at 50 West. I want to thank everyone who supports the Open Stories foundation who supports Mormon Stories. Those financial contributions go to help keep all these podcasts and projects alive. So to the listeners and to everyone who supports, thank you. For those who are willing, please do provide our support. There's something that I did last podcast that I'm going to do again. We have a real problem in sort of Mormon podcast land of male podcasters being supported more than women podcasters. And so I'm going to do, I'm going to make an explicit call like I did last podcast and say, support Lindsey Hanson park and Gina Colvin and Misha McGriggs and their podcast, not just with your verbal or textual affirmations, but also with your financial support. Support Gina Colvin with a thoughtful faith. Support Christy Money with Mormon Transitions podcast. Anyone else I'm leaving out? Support your female Mormon podcasters with your money. And yeah, just. This is really fun. It's such an honor and a privilege. Check back on Mormon Stories. This will be there. You can make comments, make, you know, engage in the dialogue. We just love you guys. We're so happy to be here. Drive home safely tonight and let's see you again next time. We will be having our next Mormon Stories live. Kimberly, what's the date? May 18th. Mama dragons are going to be here to talk about Mama Dragons with Kimberly, so please check us out there and look forward to more things ahead. Thanks again, everyone and have a good night. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower lights

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:16:46] to

Kathryn Jones-Porter [02:16:46] make me whole when with a wounded

Aubrey Parmenter (survivor) [02:16:56] heart, anger or malice

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:17:03] I draw myself

John Dehlin [02:17:06] apart Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.