Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1611

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 30, 2022. We are recording here in the Mormon Story studios in somewhere near Salt Lake City, Utah, on holiday. And I am super excited for today's interview. I'm here with Jen. Hey, Jen. Hey, Jen.

Guest [00:00:18] Kim. Hi, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Thanks for joining us, Jen.

Guest [00:00:20] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Why are we working on Memorial Day?

Guest [00:00:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Because I'm an abusive boss.

Guest [00:00:27] No, just worked out that it worked out this year.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] There was consent.

Rachel Wunderli [00:00:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] Anyway, thanks for coming in on Memorial Day.

Guest [00:00:35] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] We're obviously pre recording today. So today's interviewee is someone who I've been kind of following for, I don't know, four or five years. I, I don't know how long it's been. But today we're interviewing my friend Rachel Wonderly. Hey, Rachel.

Rachel Wunderli [00:00:49] Hey, everyone. How's it going?

John Dehlin [00:00:53] Super happy to have you. I think we were talking before the show that I think my friend Liz Layton.

Rachel Wunderli [00:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Who I interviewed on Mormon Stories previously. She was a jazz dancer and she's done a lot of work on suicide prevention. So it was a powerful interview for me. Anyway, I think Liz made me aware of you years ago.

Rachel Wunderli [00:01:14] Yeah. We've crossed paths to some degree for a while, but it's nice to finally be here and chat. This is exciting.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] Yeah. So I always like to give kind of a preview of what we're going to be talking about. So this is how I think about it. It's going to be a traditional long form Mormon stories interview of Rachel's faith journey. She was definitely raised Mormon, but we're going to be talking about her leaving Mormonism and converting to, I don't know if you call it non denominational Christianity or evangelical Christianity.

Rachel Wunderli [00:01:47] Both. Both work. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] And that was here in, in Utah. So leaving Mormonism to join non denominational Christianity in Utah and becoming kind of a youth minister and a pastor in training. Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:02:02] Worship pastor to a certain extent. There was no pastor in that role, so we'll just call it that. Me and one other guy. Worship pastors.

Guest [00:02:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] But you were on training. You were in training.

Rachel Wunderli [00:02:11] We were in training to become ordained as pastors probably two years into the future. But yeah, we were in, we were sitting in a pastoral role.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Yeah. So that's interesting how, how a Mormon becomes kind of a, a pastor in training at a, at a Christian church. And we've done recently a lot of interviews, whether it's Steven Pineker or Randy Bell or others. I have some Dear friends who are Christians and you know, we're obviously supportive of everyone's journeys, but today, what's going to be slightly different from some of those other episodes is recently you've. And this is where I kind of got back, back in touch with you. Recently you left Christianity and you've been tiktoking kind of as an ex Christian.

Rachel Wunderli [00:02:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Which was surprising because I, I just remember watching your, your TikTok or Instagram or YouTube videos where you're singing Christian songs and like, really? Jesus up. As I sometimes like to say, I

Rachel Wunderli [00:03:09] was all in for Jesus. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Yeah. So how does someone go from Mormon to Christian will be part of this. And I'll say evangelical Christian or non dynamic. And then how does someone go from that to ex Christian? That's going to be kind of today's episode. And you know, you do a lot of work in suicide prevention.

Rachel Wunderli [00:03:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] You'll. We'll be talking about your Mormon marriage and a Mormon divorce, being single in Utah, you know, as, as a divorced woman, as a Christian, as an ex Christian. So there's that. And then you, you have a real passion around suicidality. So I assume that you have experienced some suicidal ideation yourself and that's part of what drives your passion.

Rachel Wunderli [00:03:53] Yep. Absolutely. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] So we'll be talking about some of that as well.

Rachel Wunderli [00:03:57] Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:03:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Well, thanks for joining us on, on the holiday.

Rachel Wunderli [00:04:01] My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] You ready for this, Jen?

Guest [00:04:04] I'm so ready.

Rachel's Background and Family Origins

John Dehlin [00:04:05] All right, all right, all right. Well, where does your Mormon story begin, Rachel?

Rachel Wunderli [00:04:11] The day I was born, I was born into the Mormon Church. My parents met at the University of Utah and I was born in ut. We very quickly moved to the east coast so that my dad could go to law school. And we lived in Boston and D.C. and New York, and that's where I grew up. So I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] Where were you in the birth order?

Rachel Wunderli [00:04:32] I'm the oldest.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] Of how many kids?

Rachel Wunderli [00:04:34] Of seven.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] Whoa, seven kids?

Rachel Wunderli [00:04:37] Seven kids. Yes. Fallen right into the stereotype. So three of them are adopted, though. So I grew up with being the oldest of four and then the other three were adopted about 10 years ago. And yeah, we grew up mainly in D.C. and New York as pretty much the only Mormon in the area. So it was a really unique experience. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Let me ask you. So I recognized your last name because I served on the Sunstone board with an Earl Wonderly. We talked about this. So I asked you if that was family. And he was a really smart dude and you just told me he passed away recently he published a book, I think it was signature book on. On the Book of Mormon. And I knew him to be a really smart, thoughtful guy.

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] So that was your grandpa's brother, is that right? So your dad's uncle.

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] So that makes me want to know. And if your dad went to Harvard Law School. I think you told me that.

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] It made me want to know about your dad's kind of upbringing and his parents. Just a quick little profile.

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] It sounds like the Wanderley family is kind of interesting a little bit.

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:41] Well, they are interesting because they're all immigrants from Switzerland, so. So my dad's parents and. Well, their parents were first generation Americans, so they traveled here from Switzerland. A lot of them did. And, I mean, my dad grew up wearing lederhosens sometimes. And really? Yeah, we were very, very Swiss. So a lot of my family is converts to the Mormon Church, like my great grandparents and things like that. And so they grew up having a very different taste in their mouth of kind of what Mormonism was. They got. They got the. They. A different translation of it, probably. And they kind of just viewed it more of a culture rather than a deeply embedded religion that they followed the doctrine to. To the te. I think they really just appreciated the culture and the community that Mormonism brought.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] That's your grandparents?

Rachel Wunderli [00:06:34] My grandparents.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Where did they live mostly? Where did they raise?

Rachel Wunderli [00:06:38] All came to Utah. So everyone was. My parents were all born and raised in Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] What high school would your. I guess your. Your dad.

Rachel Wunderli [00:06:47] My. My dad went to Highland and my mom went to Cottonwood.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] Okay. All right. So Salt Lake County.

Rachel Wunderli [00:06:53] Yeah. So they're all like. They've been in Salt Lake county for a long time. And same with my grandparents.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] Okay. You know, there's a big Swiss days thing in Midway Heber. Was your family involved in that?

Rachel Wunderli [00:07:05] We never went there for some reason. I know.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] Swiss blasphemy.

Rachel Wunderli [00:07:09] It's terrible. It's terrible. My grandparents, who would have made us go there didn't have social media information to tell them that that was going on.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] They didn't even know about.

Rachel Wunderli [00:07:20] They didn't even know it was going on.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Jen, you were laughing. Have you been to Swiss days?

Guest [00:07:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] You like Swiss days?

Guest [00:07:24] Yeah, I went for years every year until it got so busy that it was just not worth it for me to find a parking place.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] Did you go for the sauerkraut?

Rachel Wunderli [00:07:33] No, we put sauerkraut on everything. I will say we still. We still eat food as if we were exceptionally Swiss. We just don't Go to Swiss days for it. But now I should, I should make that a tradition.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] I dated a girl at BYU who, whose family lived there. Approbst is the last name. And I found out that like the steaks there prepare that sauerkraut all year long.

Rachel Wunderli [00:07:59] They do.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] And it's like, it was like I, I served in a booth once where they're serving the sauerkraut to all the Swiss days people. So. Yeah, we have to bury it. I mean you have to like bury it underground for a long period in it like ferments and.

Rachel Wunderli [00:08:13] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] I'm surprised there's not like cabbage alcohol or something.

Rachel Wunderli [00:08:16] I know, I know. It's. Yeah, we put sauerkraut on pretty much everything. It's. It's something that every time one of us gets a new boyfriend or girlfriend and we're initiating them into the family, they have to make it past Christmas dinner, which is a very big Swiss tradition of ours. And if they don't like it, we just end up giving them crap for the rest of the year. Like I guess you guys aren't accepted into the family until you like weenies and sauerkraut and canopoly, which is a, a Mac and cheese. That's very Swiss.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] Okay. All right. So do you. I'm. I know. I'm just geeking out on your family. What it was your grandpa's profession.

Rachel Wunderli [00:08:53] He's also a lawyer.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] He's an. Okay. Do you know what kind?

Rachel Wunderli [00:08:56] I have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] That's fine. That's fine. So smart family. Kind of a really intelligent family.

Rachel Wunderli [00:09:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] I, I guess I shouldn't say all lawyers are smart, but yeah, you know,

Rachel Wunderli [00:09:07] they're, they're, they're very intelligent. They all, they all dedicated a lot of their time to school. I mean a lot of the opportunities that their parents had. They didn't have a lot of school opportunities. So I think when it came to my grandparents and down and my parents generation, they really went hard when it came to school and education cuz their, their parents didn't receive that.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] So what was your mom's background?

Rachel Wunderli [00:09:30] My mom is. Well, she, she was born and raised in Utah as well. Her family is English and German as well. Raised Mormon. She was raised Mormon her whole life. Her parents were Mormon pretty much their whole life. And she's the oldest of seven as well. So kind of grew up poor and just kind of trying to get by. She helped raise a lot of the her siblings and things like that. So pretty standard, nothing too special.

Growing Up Mormon Outside of Utah

John Dehlin [00:10:03] So your parents, when they Met and got married. How into the church do you think they were? How Mormon was your early family like that you were born into? How Mormon was it or non Mormon or liberal or any of that?

Rachel Wunderli [00:10:16] Yeah, I would say it was fairly moderate. My parents, they met in college and like my dad was a part of a frat and you know, he partied at the U. Yeah, he was a Sigma Chi at the U. And he kind of lived it up. And when they got married I, my mom was more active in the church and so I think they stayed in the church because she wanted to stay in the church. And then knowing that they were going to move all over, they knew they needed that tight knit community to stay with them. So I think my dad stayed for convenience purposes. But as far as what they believed in their heart of hearts, I think they stayed pretty much on the surface. Like I identify as Mormon, but I don't fully know what that means. I'm not going to dig too deep into what that means. It's kind of how they raised us. So. But yeah, I mean they're pretty much, they're in between. They weren't super fundamentalist staunch or anything, but we definitely had to go to church all three hours. Growing up, no matter what, no friends on Sunday type thing. So there was still like heavy specific to Mormon rules that we followed that I remember growing up with.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] So like scripture study and family prayer.

Rachel Wunderli [00:11:25] We did family home evening. Yeah, we did family home evening. We'd pray before meals, but we wouldn't pray over everything. It's not like we'd pray before a road trip necessarily for safety. We wouldn't go to that extent, but I had cousins who would. We were kind of in between where we, we'd pray over our meals. We'd have family home evening. We couldn't hang out with friends on Sundays and. But on our way home from church in New York, we'd always stop by this Indian restaurant every single Sunday. So technically we would not keep the Sabbath day holy, but only if it was with our family. So as long as we were breaking the Sabbath with our family, that was fine. That's kind of where they drew the line.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] So when you moved to, I assume you moved to Boston for your dad to go to law school.

Rachel Wunderli [00:12:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] And then New York, was that like some big firm that hired your dad out of law school? Basically, yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:12:14] We went to D.C. first and then I know he was a part of Philip Morris when we moved to New York and yeah, big firm there. We moved to Manhattan and kind of like Lived that life for a couple years, which was crazy. Four kids in Manhattan. I don't know how my mom did that, but here we are.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Do you remember Manhattan?

Rachel Wunderli [00:12:34] I totally do. Yeah. I was. I was 9, 10, and 11 when we lived in Manhattan.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] Do you remember Boston?

Rachel Wunderli [00:12:41] I don't remember Boston. I was a toddler there. I remember Maryland and I remember New York completely. I mean, we didn't move to Utah until I was in high school, so I remembered New York very well.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] So Philip Morris. I know what that means. I mean that. And I don't know how much you even want to talk for your dad, but Philip Morris is a tobacco company. And you know, you had mentioned a little bit about your dad's job before. Like, obviously that's kind of like a Mormon owning a casino. Like if. If alcohol or tobacco are kind of prohibited were to wisdom wise. I wonder what that was like for your dad to work for a tobacco company.

Rachel Wunderli [00:13:21] Yeah, you know, he's never really talked about it.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Really?

Rachel Wunderli [00:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] You're never like, dad, what's up with this tobacco stuff?

Rachel Wunderli [00:13:27] We're just barely getting to the point in this last year where we're all open about all the stuff that we grew up with and kind of what was weird, what wasn't. So that conversation will definitely be one that will be had. But no, we haven't hit that one yet. It was kind of always just this thing we knew about. And we didn't think it was weird. Cause he didn't make it weird. He was just like, yep, this is what I do. And we also go to church. And that's where it stopped. And we didn't question him. We didn't question anything he did really.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] So your family didn't necessarily have a culture of talking about the hard or awkward stuff?

Rachel Wunderli [00:14:03] No, we definitely. We do not. We did not talk about emotions or hard things or mental health or anything like that growing up at all, really.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] I mean, that's definitely Mormon. And it's probably human on some level too. Yeah, yeah, man. I remember growing up, like there was a time where tobacco was way more popular. And there was this moment where like all these attorney, like all these tobacco companies were called before Congress on Capitol Hill. And all these tobacco executives, like, swore that they did not believe that. That tobacco caused cancer. And it was this real. It was kind of this watershed moment of like truth and legal stuff and the law and health. Because all these executives are like, you know, because tobacco companies had been not wanting to acknowledge that tobacco caused cancer, even though the warning label on the side. But then there's a question about how they marketed. Did they market to youth? Did they. With the Katy cigarettes, were they marketing to young kids? And. But. But it's like, it's almost Mormon. It's almost faith crisis related. When you look back at that footage of these tobacco executives all swearing that they did not believe that tobacco caused cancer, it's confirmation bias kind of at its right fullest. So.

Rachel Wunderli [00:15:31] Right. It's like, did they really not know or did they just not look past the surface? Because what I've found with a lot of people who have grown up in a staunch religion of sorts is just the, the lack of research is, is potent. It's just there's so much information right there and it doesn't take that much research to look into it. But out of fear, a lot of us don't for a long time.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:15:56] Then when you finally break through, you're like, wow, this was right over the other fence. Right. The other kid's backyard.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] And that's. I'm sure your dad's amazing, but I'm. I'm guessing that would be interesting to talk to him about how he, how he's worked through that in his mind.

Rachel Wunderli [00:16:13] Yeah. I'm taking mental notes now of all the things I'm going to go back to my family and ask him about.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] But this is your podcast, not his.

Rachel Wunderli [00:16:20] Grill him with questions.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] But did your dad, like, did he ever serve bishop or stake president or any of those types of callings?

Rachel Wunderli [00:16:27] He was in the bishopric in the singles award in Manhattan, and that was really interesting. I remember that because everyone that he brought over when we would have an activity were people as a nine year old that. I hate saying this now, but I was like, afraid of that group of people. It was a very eccentric group of people who were just very different on the surface. And at the time, growing up Mormon, I just didn't even know how to. How to handle that. But my dad would always have them over. And he was part of a bishopric there. He always served as a Sunday school teacher. When I was growing up, I remember him very much being heavily embedded in Sunday school teaching. And he did serve a mission, so he went on a mission to South Africa. And my mom was young women's president the whole time that I was in young women's. So they, they were very involved when it came to, like, service and callings and things like that. It's just the, the heart posture behind the belief system and how deeply it was ingrained into their actual brain. I think was still very surface level. It's just.

John Dehlin [00:17:35] I mean, I think that's how religion is for many Christians in the United States, whether it's Lutheran or Presbyterian or even Catholic. You just. You do it because that's what you do.

Rachel Wunderli [00:17:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] It's not necessarily some. Some huge intellectual commitment.

Rachel Wunderli [00:17:49] Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Guest [00:17:50] You.

Rachel Wunderli [00:17:51] Yeah. I think a lot more people than I thought operate in that way. Even my brother, who I thought was super staunch Mormon, just left and was telling me, like, you know, I never really thought as deeply about it as you did growing up. So for me to leave it, coming from him, he's. For. For me to leave it. It's not that big of a deal other than I have to now reframe how I view just culture and life in general. But, like, as far as finding out the. That a belief system was just not true of sorts, that he'd never really dealt with the pain of that.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] So I'm wondering. I guess it was kind of an affluent upbringing, because if your dad's like, a New York attorney for a big Fortune 500 company, must have been a kind of an affluent Mormon upbringing.

Rachel Wunderli [00:18:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] Fair to say.

Rachel Wunderli [00:18:38] Yeah, that's totally fair.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Yeah. What was that, like? Nice?

Rachel Wunderli [00:18:42] It was. It was nice for the rest of

John Dehlin [00:18:44] us who didn't grow up that way.

Rachel Wunderli [00:18:46] It was nice.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Like, I mean, Jedi shouldn't speak for you.

Rachel Wunderli [00:18:49] Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. No, I mean, we had family members just in our extended family who raised their kids differently. Like, I have cousins who were raised way more strict than. Than we were. So when we would have just family din, when we moved back to Utah, it was very strange because we were all at different levels, kind of. Of Mormonism. But I appreciated the degree and level in which my parents raised us. Cause I feel like it was a very happy medium. And they were very accepting of other cultures. I mean, we. All of my friends in New York were either Catholic or Jewish. So I spent most of my upbringing going to bar and bat mitzvahs and Catholic mass and things like that. And my parents really embraced other people's culture while also making sure we knew that that's not our culture, though. Like, you will follow these rules, but will be accepting of all other cultures, which I appreciate now, having lived in Utah for a long period of time, I appreciate the cultural differences that I grew up with, because you don't get to experience that as much here.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] All right, so any. Anything about your story prior to moving to Utah that's important for you to tell either for your story or for your faith journey. Any things that happened to you growing up prior to moving to Utah?

Rachel Wunderli [00:20:12] No. When it. No, when it came to that type of stuff, I mean, there was. Yeah, there was nothing really huge or significant that happened before that. I feel like I was raised pretty moderately Mormon throughout that time, and then it wasn't till Utah. I mean, I guess the most important thing to know is before I moved to Utah, I viewed Mormonism as my full identity to the point where I would do school projects on the fact that I was Mormon, because to everybody else, that was like, they didn't know anything about it. That was super unique. So I could kind of do whatever I wanted, and they would think whatever that was was cool. I didn't, like, curse. I was the only one in my friend group who didn't drink in high school in New York. And so I guess the only thing to know is prior to moving to Utah, I was like the Molly Moe of all sorts. I just. That was who I was as a person and that.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] What grade did you move here?

Rachel Wunderli [00:21:07] We moved here my sophomore year of high school.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] Of high school. Okay. I didn't ask you your favorite primary songs. Did you have favorite primary songs?

Rachel Wunderli [00:21:16] I love to see the temple. I loved that one. And families. Families are together forever. Yeah, I'm going there someday. I think I sang that one at my baptism. And Families are together forever. Those two were my favorite that I can remember.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] Were you singing at a young age? Were you into music?

Rachel Wunderli [00:21:34] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, we.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Did you go to Broadway musicals while you were in New York?

Rachel Wunderli [00:21:39] I did some off Broadway stuff, and I did know people who did Broadway. I was more embedded in our high school musicals, which were huge back there. But, yeah, I mean, we were put into the primary programs, obviously, but my sibling group was always the go to call for Christmas program stuff. And my mom was really good at putting together all of the shows for the church, so she would get in. Put in charge of all the activities, which meant that we were on the front doing something that had to do with singing and dancing for. For the church. So we grew up singing in everything.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] That was a family thing. Singing.

Rachel Wunderli [00:22:19] Yeah, family. Yeah. I. I think I'm the one that took off with it the most, for sure. Especially at this point. But for the most part, everybody in my family can sing to a certain degree. And we would always have, like, sibling songs just breaking out in harmony left and right in the kitchen. It's just Von Trapp, basically.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] Von Trapp.

Rachel Wunderli [00:22:39] We are the. Yes, we are the Mormon version of the Von Trapp family. And we joke about that all the time.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] Oh, really?

Rachel Wunderli [00:22:44] Specifically say that?

Guest [00:22:46] Yeah, that's one of my favorites.

Rachel Wunderli [00:22:47] It's hilarious. It's hilarious. I mean, everybody who, who has come into the family permanently or temporarily knows that's just. We're not going to have a cleaning party in the kitchen without five part harms going on at all times.

Guest [00:23:01] I love it.

Rachel Wunderli [00:23:02] So it's a lot for a lot of. For people. Big initiation into the group. But yeah, we were doing singing and stuff like that. Music related stuff. My whole life, from the time I could talk.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Was there any particular style of music that you loved or, or like performers or musicals or to you?

Rachel Wunderli [00:23:25] I mean, I loved Broadway musicals. Broadway. Les Mis and Aida were my two favorites. When Wicked came out, that was great. But Les Mis was the first show I ever saw. I was 10 years old in Manhattan. It was the first one I ever saw and I fell in love with it. And now looking back, I'm like, that's a pretty complex show for a 10 year old to just be like, what? But I fell in love with it.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] And you were Cosette, basically.

Rachel Wunderli [00:23:51] I. Yes. And Eponine. I was just. And my friends, my friend's little sister actually played Cosette on the Broadway version, Young Cosette, for years. So we. That was super. Just a super cool experience. Musical theater really touched me, which makes a lot of sense now because the way that that music is kind of built is a lot more similar to how worship music was built. So when I left Mormon hymns and went to worship music, it was like, oh, this is what I've been missing. This is, this is amazing. So, yeah, I loved all of that Broadway and everything.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Okay. What brought your family to Utah?

Moving to Utah and Cultural Shock

Rachel Wunderli [00:24:30] My dad's job was either going to move him back to the Maryland D.C. area or we've always had an opportunity for him to join a firm here. So he kind of just took that as an opportunity to be back with family. And all my extended family was still either here or in California, but mainly here. And so he was like, I guess it's time to just be back with family. So that's when we moved.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] So where'd you move here in Utah?

Rachel Wunderli [00:24:53] We moved to Cottonwood Heights and we've been there ever since. They're still in the same house.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Okay.

Rachel Wunderli [00:24:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] What high school is that? Brighton.

Rachel Wunderli [00:25:00] Brighton, yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] You went to Brighton?

Rachel Wunderli [00:25:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] You're a Bengal.

Rachel Wunderli [00:25:03] I was a Bengal, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Okay. So what was. What was it like? Like growing up back east, living in freaking Cambridge or Or Manhattan and then your sophomore year of high school. And by the way, I grew up outside of Utah as a Mormon, so I.

Rachel Wunderli [00:25:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] I'm already relating to what you're. What's about to happen.

Rachel Wunderli [00:25:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] I know you're coming to, you're coming to Oz. It's basically Dorothy in your mind. Yes, it's Dorothy coming to Oz, Right, Absolutely.

Rachel Wunderli [00:25:31] I mean, yeah, just in the context of being around, just being in Zion, I was, I was really like, okay, these are going to be my people now. I will say I absolutely hated the move, but that had nothing to do with the film that we were coming to Utah and everything to do with just what I was leaving there. I was leaving a boyfriend and my opportunities in sports and with the musicals. I just hated everything I was leaving. But with that said, I was excited to be around family and I was like, wow, there's going to be more Mormons. That's going to be pretty cool. And then the culture shock just slapped me in the face and it was just, it was. I don't even know how to describe it verbally other than just explaining what the experience was that unfolded. I mean, I, I went from being able to say that Mormonism is my full blown identity and this is why I do the things that I do, to now being around every single person around me also being Mormon, and they're all not doing the same things the same way that I was. So I couldn't then use Mormonism as an excuse to not drink or not curse or like anything that I had as a, as a goal in life of who I wanted to marry. I mean, nothing was unique anymore. I was zero percent unique at this point. And everything that I had used to be unique in New York was just gone. So I did not know who I was at this point. And I very, very early on, like sophomore year of high school, started partying because I was just trying to find an escape because I'm like, okay, all these people are saying that they're Mormon too, but they're pretty. Either pretty judgmental here or they're doing this and that. That doesn't follow. Doesn't. Doesn't compute with what I've been taught. It was so confusing. So I just decided, well, you know what? Screw it. I'm just gonna do whatever I want now. And I don't even think I knew what that was at the time because I'm a teenager. But I kind of gave way to pretty much everything you could possibly think of in high school at that point.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] So I Guess. I guess growing up in. In Houston, there were kids, Mormon kids that broke the rules. But I think, you know, there were a bunch of us that didn't. And then I think we just look at them as, like, being sinners. Right. I've never understood, and I would hear about Utah culture, how the Utah kids didn't take the standards as seriously. The Utah Mormons didn't. Utah Mormon high schoolers didn't take the standards as seriously as the Mormons who lived outside of Utah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:28:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] But I never got that mentality. Like, I never. I've always wanted to just ask a kid raised, you're Mormon still, like, they're still your standards. How can there be a high school culture of Mormons partying in mass? It just didn't make sense to me.

Rachel Wunderli [00:28:35] No, it didn't. It didn't make sense. It didn't make sense to me at all. I mean, and I don't know if it was just where I was in New York, my ward in New York. I don't know of anybody in my age range who was a sinner of sorts. So we all, like, had each other. And then I come here and I'm like, I don't even know who to turn to, who to talk to about this type of thing. Nothing special. And these Mormon kids are the ones giving me crap for not doing A, B or C. They're pressuring you? Yeah, they're the peer pressure.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] And, like, on Sunday, what are they doing at church?

Rachel Wunderli [00:29:09] Like, they're going to McDonald's during second. The second hour and, like, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] But are they, like, are the boys still passing the sacrament?

Rachel Wunderli [00:29:19] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] So it's total hypocrisy.

Rachel Wunderli [00:29:21] Like, totally. Yeah. The. The. The older brothers of my friends in New York who were passing the sacrament, they, for my knowledge, were also the ones standing up against, like, bullying and, like, bad behavior at school. So it all aligned. And then here I come to Utah and I'm like, there would be boys who would be, like, really sexually inappropriate towards me in the hallway. I mean, just like, grabbing parts of people's bodies, like, all the time, who would then go bless the sacrament on Sunday. And the whole. There was just a lot of cognitive dissonance going on in my brain at that point of just, like, none of this really adds up. So why am I even. Why am I following these rules that are seemingly boring to me as a kid? Why am I doing that if it's not even what the majority is doing? Does that mean that it's not true? Like, I Started slightly questioning stuff in. In high school. Not to a deep degree, though, at all.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Like, I could imagine, like, sophomore me if. If we had moved to Utah, like, just, like, having this moment where I just turned as many Mormon kids in the cafeteria as I could and just saying, what the freak, everyone? Why aren't you guys living the standards? Yeah, like, did you ever, like, ask around? Like, why are you all, like, disobeying the prophet? Did you ever? Or was that just. You didn't do that?

Rachel Wunderli [00:30:43] I didn't do that because I was so in shock. I think I was just so disturbed by what I was experiencing. And at that point, I was kind of just in this rebellious mindset of just like, oh, well, if that's how this is going to go down and that's how people operate, then all right, didn't give it too much thought after that and just went and found, like, a crowd that I felt comfortable with that was not Mormon. The friends that I ended up actually becoming friends with in high school were not Mormon. They were, like, the three people who weren't Mormon. Because that's where I felt most comfortable. I felt most comfortable around people who weren't telling me, weren't preaching to me and in the same sense, doing the exact opposite of what they're preaching, that I could not get. Get by. And I had a lot of boyfriends who were preparing for their missions who would do very similar things, who would break the rules, the rules that they wanted to break and kind of, like, judge me in the sense of rules that had to do with the word of wisdom. But then they would be totally fine breaking the law of chastity without thinking about it. So.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] So they judge you for breaking the word of wisdom while they were comfortable breaking the law of chastity.

Rachel Wunderli [00:31:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] Yeah. That's all weird. The other thing is, like, so much of my identity was, like, not violating the law of chastity and not violating the word of wisdom. Like, to this day, I still haven't tried beer, too.

Rachel Wunderli [00:32:01] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] And like, Mormon Voldemort and I. It's still so much of my identity. Like, I'm trying to imagine if there's any scenario where, if I had moved to Utah, if I would have let that go from peer pressure, and if so, if there would have been this sad moment of, like, saying goodbye to my standards type of thing. And I'm not trying to make you feel judged or sad. I'm just wondering if there was any part of you that felt sad to let that go, because it's for me, it's. It was a matter of pride, for it still is probably in some level.

Rachel Wunderli [00:32:33] Yeah. To my knowledge and memory. I do not remember being sad about letting those things go. I was more so sad at my surroundings and the reality that I was stepping into. So I wasn't necessarily sad that I had now made these decisions that I had vowed never to make. I was more sad at the fact that what I thought was my reality really wasn't. When it came down to being surrounded by. By people of the same faith, it was just not what I expected at all. So I was more sad at the disappointment that I felt for the community at large versus just what I did or the people around me did specifically.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] You're kind of disillusioned.

Rachel Wunderli [00:33:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] But at Mormons.

Rachel Wunderli [00:33:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] That really weren't what you thought.

Rachel Wunderli [00:33:19] Yeah, because my. I was embarrassed, actually. I remember feeling embarrassed because in New York, I. I really. I mean, I remember we had a project where we had to put one statement on a license plate. And the statement can be as long as you wanted, not like however many characters on a license plate. But what. What was that statement going to be? And I remember mine was, you wish you were Mormon. And I look back on that now and I'm like, my teachers probably thought that was the most, like, God bless them. They probably thought that was the most ridiculous thing coming from like a now understanding Catholicism mindset, like Jewish mindset, like, what they were thinking. They did a good job at making me feel like, like, seen. But I was really like, I know I was a Boyer for God, but. But I remember feeling embarrassed to the extent that I went to defend Mormonism as a New Yorker Mormon, to only find that the things that they were saying about Mormons that they had heard was actually true. Like, I would get questioned about things all the time. Like, well, of course they'd go polygamy route and things like that. And I could kind of denounce those things easily. But when it came to like, oh, I met a Mormon and. And they did this or said that, I would just not even believe their story, I would be like, no, a Mormon wouldn't do that and send to move here, I'm like, I've been defending you guys for so long.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Exactly.

Rachel Wunderli [00:34:45] And you guys suck right now. Like, what is happening? So that to me, I remember feeling very humiliated to like, a deep degree to where I just wanted to kind of like, I didn't want. If at all, I didn't want any part of it. At that point, I became pretty inactive Other than being forced to go while I was still in high school at under 18, I still went to church, but I was pretty inactive from sophomore year till right before I dated the guy that I married.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] Yeah, so that's kind of just like, it's kind of like a loss of innocence. It's kind of a disillusionment and a loss of innocence. Jen, I was going to ask you, like, you were raised in Utah and you raised your kids in Utah. Like, I don't understand how. You know, I guess on the one hand we cover a lot on this podcast about hypocrisy and, you know, dual lives of the hidden life and then the public face and how in some sense the church kind of teaches. Teaches you to be honest, but also maybe unintentionally teaches you to lie a lot. What, what do you have any get insight on this kind of long established Mormon Utah Mormon culture of Mormon kids kind of living double lives? Like how, how?

Guest [00:36:06] Well, for me, I had a really good group of friends.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] So for me, you weren't pressured like her, like Rachel?

Guest [00:36:16] No, I actually only remember going, what

John Dehlin [00:36:18] was your high school again?

Guest [00:36:19] Alta.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Okay. Sandy. Okay.

Guest [00:36:22] Yeah. I actually only remember two, two parties that I went to where something was there or was offered to me and, and it was from like the bad kids, you know, that I knew. You know, the heathens that I knew were kind of the, they were Mormon, but I knew they weren't living their standards. And so I was, I kind of had a little bubble of friends. So me, myself growing up, I, I would, I would say all my friends were doing what they were supposed to do and living the standards that they said that they were going to land, learn or live.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] So Rachel's experience wasn't yours?

Guest [00:37:12] No, it wasn't. It wasn't. But, but I do know that there was that group within my high school who would have been the same.

Rachel Wunderli [00:37:21] Yeah.

Guest [00:37:22] You know, but so I, there, there was another group that weren't my close friends, but so I could see definitely if someone kind of came in and were befriended by that certain group that they would have that experience for sure.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] What about in your kids high school experience? Do you think they would have had more like Rachel or more like yours? Just with Mormon kids partying but then bless and passing the sacrament on Sunday kind of thing?

Guest [00:37:49] I think their age was a step further in that direction, towards Rachel's direction.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Okay.

Guest [00:37:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Okay.

Guest [00:37:56] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] I guess it's always going to depend on what high school and what group you fall into.

Rachel Wunderli [00:38:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] And yeah, yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:38:04] And I didn't really. I mean, I didn't go out seeking, you know, certain groups. It's kind of just like I got involved in sports and in theater, and it's like, whoever was involved in that theater, kids now. Oh, my gosh. Well, I was not in that for very long. The theater mindset in New York is very different from Utah. And when I came to Utah, I was like, so this is where they got the narrative for High School Musical. Okay. The thespian narrative. Like, it was very different back. Back then, but, yeah, I was more involved in sports in high school and just kind of became friends with. With that crowd.

Guest [00:38:38] And. Yeah. I must say that, though, that I have. I have always, in my whole life, heard, heard that there's a Utah Mormon and then there's a outside Utah Mormon.

Rachel Wunderli [00:38:51] Yeah.

Guest [00:38:51] And there's a different culture, a different mindset and everything. So I have always heard that, even in my kids and myself.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:39:01] Well, I think people. People who grow up in Utah Mormon, I can't imagine how confusing that must be when most people around you are Mormon, because then you're. You're more susceptible to having at least some of them believe deeper or less deep degrees of Mormonism. So whereas, like, in New York, my ward was so small, all of us kind of seem to be at the same, like, level of belief system when it came to how deeply we were embedded in theology. But you come here and you have. You have more chances of running into somebody who's, like, looked into the history more or who has been brought up in a certain environment where they're learning about all these things that a New York Mormon wouldn't learn about. And you kind of.

Guest [00:39:48] You.

Rachel Wunderli [00:39:48] You hear more about Mormonism, the good and the bad here. And I feel like that would bring a lot of confusion to a lot of people. Whereas our small ward was just very like, okay, we're all in the same boat. Check, check. All right, let's roll.

Shame, Standards, and Living a Double Life

Guest [00:40:03] Do you feel like outside of Utah, as a Mormon, you had less shame put onto you than here in Utah?

Rachel Wunderli [00:40:14] Yes. Yeah. Because outside of Utah, especially in New York, you have so many different religions that are kind of falling into this melting pot that the respect that people have for other people's religion is very, very high. And they don't really need to. To know everything about your religion. They don't. They can know something that I would deem now is weird. And they don't. They don't kind of give you crap about that or anything. They're just like, oh, okay, that's something that you guys do. That's cool. And there was a lot more people more intrigued about Mormonism growing up in New York versus. Yeah, here I see a lot of criticism towards it because it's, it's, it's. We're saturated with it here. But there was a very high level of respect for. From other people to my family for the fact that we were Mormon.

Guest [00:41:09] And what about within the religion, like French leaders or from other. Yeah, basically leaders.

Rachel Wunderli [00:41:18] Shaming the Mormon Church.

Guest [00:41:20] Yeah. Shaming the youth or making them feel less than. Did you feel that in New York

Rachel Wunderli [00:41:24] or, Or here for like Mormon leaders making non Mormons feel less than. Or the Mormons. I noticed definitely more shame in Utah with that.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] You mean like if a youth breaks the law of chastity or breaks the word of wisdom kind of thing?

Guest [00:41:44] Yeah. Or just doesn't go to seminary. Like, it doesn't have to be something huge, you know?

John Dehlin [00:41:49] Okay, okay.

Guest [00:41:50] You know.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] Okay.

Rachel Wunderli [00:41:52] Yeah, yeah. No, there was definitely more grace from what I remember from east coast bishops and leaders because they're used to seeing so many things from people who are converts. They're used to more converts. So they're used to giving this grace period for people. If you're like, not at the point of going to seminary all the time or not this, that with bishops here, it's almost like the sense of, you know better. Like we're all around to hold you accountable. You're surrounded by Mormons everywhere you go. Like, you know better. This shouldn't be happening. Whereas there, there's way more of a grace period. Because I think of the, the, the increase in, in converts and people with

John Dehlin [00:42:32] much different backgrounds, oftentimes outside of Utah. It's just like, we're just glad you're here, you know?

Rachel Wunderli [00:42:39] Yeah, yeah, totally.

Guest [00:42:41] Which should be awesome, you know, Which I think is good. Yeah, that should be the feeling when someone comes to church. We're so glad you're here, you know?

Rachel Wunderli [00:42:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:51] I have to ask if the name Austin Archer means anything to you.

Rachel Wunderli [00:42:55] It does not.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] So Austin Archer, We've had our Mormon stories. He's got like a million tick tock followers.

Rachel Wunderli [00:43:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] And he went to Brighton and was in theater. And I imagine he's a little bit older than you.

Rachel Wunderli [00:43:07] Yeah, I mean, I, I graduated in 11. I'll be 30 this year. I'm not sure how old.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] Similar.

Rachel Wunderli [00:43:14] Are we at similar age? No, I don't know. I mean, I really. When it comes to theater, I was in theater for like 2 seconds and

John Dehlin [00:43:21] then I was like, okay, you dropped up.

Rachel Wunderli [00:43:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] Yeah, okay, okay. But okay, so. So when you kind of like became a bad girl, did you think of yourself as a bad girl? Like, I don't mean to even put those words together, but, like, as soon as you started breaking the church's standards as a high schooler, stop taking it seriously. Where you see, you were still attending church, right?

Rachel Wunderli [00:43:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] So, so what was that cognitive dissonance like, and how did you manage it?

Rachel Wunderli [00:43:49] Yeah, I definitely felt like the, the black sheep, the bad girl. I got a lot of judgment from certain groups at school, but I, I went to church and I just remember caring a lot growing up about my parents, friends, and what they thought of me and just authority in general, like even teachers and what they thought of me. I always wanted to come across as the respectful one. And I dealt with a lot of cognitive dissonance there because I was kind of being told that these things that I'm doing that have nothing to do with whether I'm a kind, compassionate, respectful human. I was now doing all these things that were deemed so sinful and so bad. So, like drinking and stuff that I was really, it was really important to me that my friends, parents and my teachers didn't know that side. So I remember feeling like this double life, living this double life because I'd be just on it in this, this churchgoer for, in one part of the week, and then in other parts of the week it'd be completely different and I'd be like totally in my mind hating on the church. I was never really vocal about my dislike for the church back then. I was still pretty respectful, but I just didn't. I did receive a lot of judgment from, from other people who are my peers, and I didn't want that same judgment coming from grown ups.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] How did you hide it? How did you hide the word getting around kind of thing?

Rachel Wunderli [00:45:26] I just stuck with a very specific friend group who, most of them weren't Mormon, so I knew it wasn't going to creep back. The ward and the friends that I had at the ward, I was not friends outside of church. I was not friends with my ward friends. They were great friends and I think they're great people. We just did not hang out outside of church. I kept it very separate.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] Did your family know you were goofing around?

Rachel Wunderli [00:45:51] Totally. Yeah. I was grounded majority of my high school life from what I can remember. And I was, I mean, I was the guinea pig. You know, being the oldest, I was. I'm still probably considered the black sheep but my parents definitely knew that I was. That I was partying and. And stuff like that. They were not happy about it, but I think they were more so concerned with very practical things. And that was not communicated to me. To me, it was communicated like, we're upset because this is going against the church, but what they meant by it now, having talked to them about it now, was, no, we just didn't want you to, you know, drink because we didn't want you to drink and drive. And at 17, like, totally understandable things for a parent to worry about.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Unwed pregnancy kind of stuff.

Rachel Wunderli [00:46:34] Yeah, yeah, an unwed pregnancy. And they were, like, really worried about all those things, naturally, and understandably so. But I definitely always thought in my mind that it had to do with the church and that the only reason why these things were bad or that people were worried is because of the church. So I just tried to keep it as hidden as possible. But my parents, they did know, and things would get around the ward occasionally, but not, like, to a deep degree. I still remember by the time I left Mormonism, it was like I was. I was in close contact and in good relationship with pretty much everyone at my ward.

Navigating Bishops, Guilt, and Faith

John Dehlin [00:47:09] How did you manage your bishop and your leaders who would have been interviewing you about your worthiness throughout your high school years?

Rachel Wunderli [00:47:20] Well, I did go through moments where I would go and confess to the bishop myself because I would feel guilty about certain things. And I remember sitting in multiple confessions, and they handled it well. From what I remember, there was no, like, severe repercussions. So as far as, like, the way that they handled it, obviously I couldn't take the sacrament for certain periods of time. That was embarrassing. But. And now looking back, I thought for a long time, oh, my bishops handled this really well. They never. My bishops were never inappropriate. They never said anything bad. And in hindsight, looking at how they actually phrase certain questions in those meetings, it wasn't okay how they handled it. But I don't think that they even realized.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] Do you mean asking sexually explicit questions like the bishop alone with you, 16 years old, behind closed doors?

Rachel Wunderli [00:48:16] Yeah, yeah. Like asking if I would confess to something, and then the response would be okay, and did, did. Was it enjoyable and things like that. So. And at the time, even now, looking at who those people were, I'm like. Like, I don't think they even knew what they were even doing or saying. It was kind of just regurgitating what you're taught in some handbook or something. So they. They didn't seem to even think through what they were saying. And at the time, I don't remember that specifically being, like, traumatic back then, but it was awkward at best and humiliating and. But I would go back and forth between wanting to confess and then wanting to hide in shame. But I. I definitely felt like even when I was inactive, that the Mormon Church was true and I was just wrong. So I knew that at some point, or thought that at some point I was going to have to come back to the fold. And I was really wrestling with how I was going to do that.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] It's kind of Jack Mormon vibes a little bit. Is there a female equivalent to Jack Mormon? Jane Mormon Jane.

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:20] I know we'll just make.

Guest [00:49:22] But we can now move.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Yeah, Mormons don't care enough. Mormons don't care enough about women to even.

Guest [00:49:28] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:28] To even nickname us.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] That's rude. I don't mean to be rude, but Mormons need to create more female names. The Book of Mormon needs to get more female names. Like, women aren't named in Mormonism. We're kind of ignored.

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:43] Jane Mormon. We just started.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] Jane Mormon. Does that work?

Guest [00:49:46] That works for me.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Doesn't have the same ring, though.

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:48] It doesn't?

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Doesn't.

Guest [00:49:50] No.

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:50] But I was a total Jack. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] So how did you navigate feelings of guilt with your Heavenly Father? Prayer, that sort of thing?

Rachel Wunderli [00:50:01] I always actually had a very deep prayer life that was unique to even my siblings who went on missions, who. Who never were inactive growing up. They even remember my whole upbringing being like you. You always were, like, really close with God specifically. And I don't know where that came from. I always had this deep pray. But when it came to wrestling with guilt, I just knew. I was like, God knows. If God knows my heart, then God knows, like, where I'm actually struggling. And I don't need to explain that to him because he already knows all of those things. So why am I having to explain it to all these people, like my bishop or a friend at school or something like that? I was really not down for people adding on more shame to me than I already felt myself, because I was very hard on myself. I didn't need God to make it harder for me or other people. I was really close with prayer life. I don't remember ever feeling shame in the sense of Heavenly fathers upset with me. I remember feeling shame in the sense of my parents are mad and my. My school buddies found out about this and things like that. It was very, like, surface level, kind of what I was afraid of.

John Dehlin [00:51:23] So your perception of your Heavenly Father at The time was unconditional love.

Rachel Wunderli [00:51:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:29] Support. Yeah, that's nice.

Rachel Wunderli [00:51:30] Yeah, it was nice. It honestly saved me in certain periods of time in college when I was, like, heavily partying in the frat scene. I remember being show wasted in the back alley of some parking lot and looking up at the stars.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] What was that word? Wasted?

Rachel Wunderli [00:51:47] I just choiced it because that's a.

John Dehlin [00:51:51] That's a different form of being wasted.

Rachel Wunderli [00:51:53] It's like a mixture of, you know, hammered and wasted. And first.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] I don't know.

Rachel Wunderli [00:51:59] I'll try not to curse. I'm trying so hard not to curse over here, guys. Okay? But I. Yeah, I.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] You're in an alley.

Rachel Wunderli [00:52:08] I was in an alleyway. And I was. I was really hammered, and I was praying. I was praying like, God, I know you're up there, and if you are, I just need you to throw me a Hail Mary of sorts, because I'm drowning over here and I really, really need some help. And that same year, I kind of, like, picked myself up off the streets of that season of life and then became active again in the church after that due to the guy that I ended up marrying. So to me, that felt like an answered prayer. In hindsight, I would have more to say about it, but at that time, it was like, oh, I just. I threw one up to God, and he was totally there and provided what I needed.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] I want to get to that, but I. I don't want to miss anything. Did you. So did you. Did you do seminary in high school

Rachel Wunderli [00:52:59] in New York early in the morning? Because we did not have it, you know, attached to our school or anything. So I remember getting up three days a week early in the morning to do it. Freshman year, I did have to do it when I went to school here at Brighton, but I skipped a lot. And it was kind of something where my vice principal actually told me my senior year I had a lot of detentions for skipping. And he's like, all right, if you just go to seminary and not miss any more seminary classes, I'll take away all of your detentions.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] What?

Rachel Wunderli [00:53:32] Yeah. And now I'm looking at that.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Like, what?

Rachel Wunderli [00:53:35] Exactly. Exactly. But I totally, of course, didn't see it as that at that point. And I was going, wait, so you're saying I have to go to, like, the. I have to attend the easiest class there is to, like, remove all my detentions? Like, you got it. Like, I was all in for that. So I totally did that. Now I'm like, ooh, that was. That could have been a fireable offense for him, probably.

College Years and Emotional Struggles

John Dehlin [00:53:59] So as you're finishing high school, like, were you. Were you pursuing academics? Were you pursuing talents? Were you just, like, lost. How would you describe kind of like the culminating senior year in your graduation?

Rachel Wunderli [00:54:14] I was just trying to get through it. I was trying to get through it. And I knew I wanted to go to the U because that was like, we're. We're huge Utes fans from the time even when we lived in the east coast because of my parents. And I was excited to do that, and I was just excited to be done with high school. I was just, like, done with. Done with this. I wanted to be an adult as fast as possible. I wanted to be an adult and be out of the house and. And, yeah, I mean, I wrapped up high school. Senior year was great. I was in a really. I was in my first, like, real loving relationship, if you will. And we were kind of both on the same wavelength with church. We both were raised Mormon. His family was. Was pretty active. My family was pretty active, and we were the oldest and both the black sheep. So we were both kind of like, all right, well, let's. We'll just figure this out together. And just felt comfortable. And I was in a good relationship with my parents and my whole family and was still going to church because I had to. But, yeah, I just kind of rode out high school just to get through it. I had no big events or big plans that took place.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] Anything else about your Mormon story before college that you want to make sure you mention before we jump to college?

Rachel Wunderli [00:55:22] Nope. I think. I think. I mean, I was pretty. Yeah, I was pretty inactive in high school. I mean, had to go to Trek and dress up, you know, pioneer days. And that was hilarious because I was totally inactive at that point, and everyone in the ward knew that. But here I am dressed like a pioneer, trucking through the. Through the fields. And that was hilarious. Other than that, I remember, like, events like that. I would just go and. And we'd. We'd make the most of. But I didn't really buy into anything I was doing. But no, I mean, I was pretty much moderately an active Jack Mormon for. For the remainder of high school.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Okay. Okay, so you go to the U. Yep. And the. You joined a sorority or.

Rachel Wunderli [00:56:04] Yep, I joined Delta Gamma at the U. And I did that time as a freshman. Yeah, I rushed as a freshman. And at the time, the U was way more of a commuter school than it is now, and it still is, but it was very heavily commuter school. So the only way to make, to meet people was a Greek row or a sport or joining student body. So I joined the sororities and that entered into, I would say, my first rock bottom in my whole life was that first two years of college.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] What was you sorority like for you? So you sorority life life like for you? I got a taste of it when I was a counselor in the counseling center at Utah State. There's a lot. There were a lot of. There was a lot of alcohol and drug abuse. There was a lot of real extreme sexual kind of things. And there was high eating disorder kind of things going on. That. That was my. That's what I gleaned from the students I counseled with.

Rachel Wunderli [00:57:06] Yeah. I was so right out the gate, I was like, all right, cool, I'm gonna meet some friends. This is great. But I really did not buy into this whole like, like the cult mindset of it because it totally is within itself, like its own little cult. You buy into like this. This thing that everybody has in common of just whatever your theme is for your sorority, and then everything is all about that. And I don't even really remember what ours was, but I remember very quickly now having access to anything that I wanted really in terms of alcohol and drugs and being away from my parents more. At this point, I just kind of took advantage and went nuts with that. Like, I was just self medicate. I was self medicating for sure because I was dealing with a lot of depression and not really sure who I was at that point. And I remember just being. Wanting to be at every single party I had fomo. If I wasn't there, I was just always involved with whatever was going on. But very quickly I started realizing that it was not a safe space to be. If you ever passed a certain point of intoxicated, if you ever passed a certain point, you now as a woman were no longer in a safe space.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] Like sexual assault kind of stuff.

Rachel Wunderli [00:58:28] Yeah. And there were many, many occasions where I was sexually assaulted in the frat houses. And I remember my parents and I getting in some big fight that ended up me be like leaving house. And I couldn't take anything with me. So the only place I had to go at that point was Greek Row. So I end up showing up there and I. For a couple months, I had to basically decide, okay, am I gonna sleep on this back alleyway on the street in a sleeping bag that's kind of by the garage of the house so that I kind of feel safe, or am I gonna go sleep in the fraternity house? And potentially wake up. Up with something bad having happened that night. And I kind of. It was like a coin toss every night for a couple months.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] And there were homeless from your home in Cottonwood Heights.

Rachel Wunderli [00:59:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] Because your parents were mad at you for.

Rachel Wunderli [00:59:21] Because we had gotten in some. We had got. Yeah, we had gotten in some blowout fight that I don't even. Honestly don't even remember what that was for, but we didn't speak for a couple months.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] But you didn't live in the sorority house then.

Rachel Wunderli [00:59:33] No, I was not one of the people who paid the extra to stay in the house. They did let me stay there for a certain period of time, but there were girls who didn't know the extent of the situation, who were pretty judgmental about me being around a lot. So I would. I didn't want to be around there. I didn't want to be around those girls. So I was either kind of like on the street or at a frat house or if my boyfriend and I were in good terms for that period of time at his apartment, something like that. But he was also in a frat and kind of going through the same rock bottom at the same time. So we were both just a hot mess at the same time. But I couldn't really decide, like, what was. What I would. What I was risking when I would stay in the frat houses. It was. I didn't realize how bad it was, honestly, till years later. And now I look back and I'm like, okay. I'm trying to put words to what actually took place, and it's just so uncomfortable because my whole life, you know, growing up Mormon, we did not talk about sexual assault. We did not talk about things like that. So I didn't even know how to verbalize that that was going on to anybody at that point.

John Dehlin [01:00:43] Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of frat boys that are like, sure, you can stay here.

Rachel Wunderli [01:00:46] Yeah. I mean, yeah, sure, you could stay here. And then the next morning, it'd be like. Like, my bottoms would be, like, not in the same position that they were the night before. So it's like, things like that would take place. That's like the minor version of the stories. But, yeah, it was just. It was just really bad. It got really bad to the point where I didn't want to live anymore. And that was. My first suicide attempt was in the frat scene at the.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] Sorry.

Rachel Wunderli [01:01:16] Yeah. Yeah, it was. I mean, you know, I've, of course, made decisions, too, that I would take back in an instant that just were just dumb decisions that put myself in a situation for harm to take place. And I wish I could, you know, go back and change those things, but at the end of the day, there were just. Yeah, some really bad things that I was not prepared for that took place, and. And I didn't want to be around. And it wasn't until after that suicide attempt that I finally, like, came back home and my. My dad literally picked me up from a frat house and dropped me, brought me home once he realized how serious it was.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] I'm so sorry.

Rachel Wunderli [01:02:00] Yeah, it was. This is the first time I've talked about that publicly. So this is. Yeah, it's. It was. It was crazy. It was a crazy time.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] So it's not knowing who you are. It's depression, it's substance use and abuse, it's sexual assaults. It's just all of that and just feeling lost and dark.

Rachel Wunderli [01:02:26] Yeah, just feeling that. And I think there was a degree looking back on it that was really big, and that was really big in correlation to my faith loss. I mean, I really had no idea who I was from the time we moved to Utah to this point. And it had been, like, four years, and I still was, like, struggling with that same thing, and I didn't have anybody to talk to about it because my whole family was still in the church. And I still thought that I was the one in the wrong because I was partying, so I must be the sinner in the situation. So I never looked into, like, anything after that. I just kind of took it as I'm wrong. I'm making these mistakes. Therefore my life is a struggle right now, and I'm doing this to myself, and so I might as well make it easier for me and everyone around me and just end it and that. And then that's. Yeah, that's what led to the attempt.

John Dehlin [01:03:25] I'm so sorry. I have a couple questions. Like you, when. When I think about a Jack Mormon, for those who don't know what that term is, it's somebody who kind of still believes, but they're just not obeying and they're inactive, not going to church and then breaking the rules. So on the one hand, you kind of alluded to losing your faith as a sophomore once you found out that Utah Mormons were kind of not really as committed as you thought, and you got disillusioned. So it sounds like there was some conflicting beliefs there that at some level, you weren't totally bought into the church as a belief system anymore, but on some level, you still were hanging on to your beliefs. Is that right?

Rachel Wunderli [01:04:10] Yeah. Yeah. I didn't really have the, The. The mindset to be able to think, oh, why don't I just look into what I actually believe to be able to have more of a firm foundation on what I'm standing on. I didn't even get to the point of thinking that far. I just took what I had received growing up and took that as ultimate literal truth and had no reason to question it and thought that everything bad that was happening, happening to me was because I was making poor decisions. And to a certain extent that was true. But I didn't think, like, oh, what I've. What I'm believing isn't true, or something like that. Like, let me look into it further, and then I'd be able to come to a conclusion of sorts that may have brought me peace. Peace. I wasn't even at that point. I was just kind of like, all these people who are. Who have told me these things my whole life that are true are way smarter people than I am. Like, that's, that's where it would go. It would just go to. I'm not intelligent enough to be able to make these decisions and come to these conclusions that A, B or C isn't true or is true. I'm just going to trust the, the prophets and the historians and the. Whatever and, and believe what they're saying. And if it's not. If it's. If I have a problem with it, it's because. Because I'm the issue. And that's the, that's the furthest extent it would go at that point.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] But there was a degree it felt wrong, it felt off. The, The Church's truthfulness felt off, right?

Rachel Wunderli [01:05:42] Yeah, yeah, it felt off. But I couldn't even pinpoint what that was in regards to theology or doctrine because for me, it was very cultural. It was like, it feels off because these people feel exceptionally judgmental when that's exactly what I've been told not to be. And that's who. The Mormon, The New York Mormons. Didn't seem like that. So it was just kind of like it was very. It started all cultural. It didn't get theological till. Till later.

John Dehlin [01:06:11] You lost your cultural testimony?

Rachel Wunderli [01:06:12] I lost my cultural testimony, yes.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] Okay, one more question. And this is. This is more of a reflection as I'm thinking about, like, the role the church played for me is it got me through college with straight A's and, like, no huge mistakes and no addictions, just like. And then ready for the Ready for the, you know, job, ready for the job market. I'm married, I've got kids. It gave me focus, it gave me meaning, gave me purpose, it gave me standards. And you know, within a few years I'm making six figures out of college. Like the, the only downside of that is it for me it wasn't true. But it was such a great structure and I'm just thinking about how easy it is. Well, and not all Mormons follow that structure. So I acknowledge that like, you know, there's a certain percentage that don't, but I'm just like, it's so frustrating that like sometimes if you aren't given a structure, even if it's false, if you're not given a structure, you're left to figure it all out and then you're kind of left to the wolves and it's frustrating.

Rachel Wunderli [01:07:27] It's so frustrating. I was talking about this with my brother in law the other day of how beneficial it is to be born into this idea that at least your faith is the ultimate truth. You've made it in that regard because then all the brain power that everybody else has to use to kind of figure out exactly existential questions, you now can take that energy and put it into your career moves and what you want with your family and you can, yeah, it could be more linear and self improvement. You don't have to expend all this energy trying to figure out all these big life questions because they've already, all the answers have already been given to you. So now I'm kind of stepping into this like existential crisis of sorts where I'm like, this takes a lot of energy to just, and research and time to figure out what's actually true or what do I want to land on as truth or belief. And I didn't have to worry about that before. I could just focus on other things that were specific to what I wanted to accomplish in life because I wasn't hit by all these existential questions all the time.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Because when I'm thinking about my own children that we all left the church by the time my oldest was like a, you know, senior in high school. So many of my kids have just had to, you know, we do our best to provide examples and provide moral reasoning and to provide encouragement and emotional support. But they're all just trying to find their way. And whether it's with alcohol, drugs, sex, school identity, sexual gender identity, it's, I just, I look at them and I just think, man, I, I don't like in some Ways I envy them that they weren't raised in a high demand religion slash cult.

Rachel Wunderli [01:09:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:16] And I think, well, that they should be grateful that they weren't raised in a, you know, to be set up for a disillusionment like I was. But then I'm like, but man, they've had it way rougher than I had it and they're awesome. I'm not saying they're not awesome.

Rachel Wunderli [01:09:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:09:31] But it's, it's just, I just, I'm always frustrated by how easy it is to get lost when you don't have that iron rod to hold on to. Even if the iron rod is not true. I hate it.

Rachel Wunderli [01:09:45] I know, I know.

John Dehlin [01:09:46] So I'm feeling for you and I'm frustrated with life.

Rachel Wunderli [01:09:49] I know. I'm so frustrated. It's so much, it's so much to think about and it's so exhausting and it's liberating. At the same time. There is the, this sense of freedom that I feel right now with having this permission that I've given myself to know that I can come to terms on my own with what I believe through just basic research and things like that. But, and my, and through my experience, but oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean my, my siblings who have two young daughters right now, they just left the Mormon church and they're looking at their two year old and their six month old going, okay, how are we going to do this? Because they don't have, when you grow up in a church in a high demand religion, you kind of, as a parent, I would imagine, be at least able to, to give the parenting away to the community. Like it takes a village. Right? So it's like if you trust the village that you're in, then you're getting a lot of help with parenting. You're getting a heck of a lot of help from all angles. And now they're looking at their kids going, we have to do this ourselves, like just by ourselves because we're not going to let our kids be indoctrinated into things that like in their opinion, isn't true. So it's a lot more work as a parent and an individual to just live and, and, and find things that are true on your own and just being able to take in other people's experiences as truth and really sit with that and sit with the pain of other people and, and that pain may have been caused by your religion and that's hard to deal with. And so it's like hearing people's experiences just for what they Are. And really understanding how to research what truth is to a certain degree. It's. It's a lot, and it's liberating, and it's frustrating, and it's all the things all at once, and it's just. And you're heavy.

Women's Roles and Expectations in the Church

Guest [01:11:34] And the plan within the church, as a woman would be different than the plan that was given to John.

Rachel Wunderli [01:11:43] Yes.

Guest [01:11:43] For, you know, for his life.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] Yeah. Worse.

Guest [01:11:46] Yeah. John. John's plan. Well, yeah, you're given a plan like. Like, you know, you go to college, you know, you get that degree.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] What career do you want?

Guest [01:11:55] Yeah. What career do you want? Yeah. Pick and choose. That one. What would you like to do with that?

Rachel Wunderli [01:12:00] You know, it's a very.

Guest [01:12:01] It's a very more healthy plan that the church gives Mel. Within the church.

Rachel Wunderli [01:12:08] Absolutely. Yeah. No, my sister is in that right now. And I dealt with this, too, when I was married, and we'll get into that, but I dealt with that too, because we kind of sacrificed everything for his career. And. And so with my sister, she's like, I love my daughters and would never take them back. However, I only had children at this age. She's getting her master's right now, so all of that combined with toddlers is really difficult. She's like, I would not be dealing with all of this at once had I not been raised Mormon, because I had to put building a family over everything. So I'm still. She. She's still been in the mindset of she wants her own career, which is rare for. For a woman. A Mormon woman in general to think that way, but she's been able to think that way and also still go. This kind of sucks because I could have done the career path first and then chose to have kids, but because I wasn't told that that was the highest value of importance in life and eternal value that I had to. I felt like I just had to have kids at the same time. I had to at least. If I'm gonna have a career, I have to at least have kids at the same time. There was no putting the kids on the back burner as an option. And of course she'd never take it back. But I'm watching it in real time happen, and it's, like, so exhausting and devastating for.

Guest [01:13:26] Yeah. It's hard because it's a. Not just your religion that you. You lose. It's your identity.

Rachel Wunderli [01:13:34] Yeah.

Guest [01:13:35] As a woman, when you have a faith crisis.

Rachel Wunderli [01:13:38] Yeah.

Guest [01:13:39] Because your. Your plan or what you were given, you know, was not the same. You know, you weren't given an education and, you know, a career path and to find value in that. And that can help in a way in the process, I think in a faith crisis, to have that established and have something else to, like, have.

Rachel Wunderli [01:14:05] Right.

Guest [01:14:06] And when you don't have that extra part, it's almost like your whole identity crashes with your faith crisis. At least for me.

Rachel Wunderli [01:14:19] Yeah.

Guest [01:14:19] And for other women that I've talked to, it seems that way. You know, it.

Rachel Wunderli [01:14:25] It's a huge. It's a huge identity crisis to such a deep degree that I have to call. I have to, like, somebody's got to hold me back every time I'm in a conversation where somebody is grossly oversimplifying deconstruction and just what that's like in general because they want to throw this out like that. Oh, the people who deconstruct or the people who think differently about this are

John Dehlin [01:14:53] like the sin or never believed.

Rachel Wunderli [01:14:55] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:14:56] Were offended or right.

Rachel Wunderli [01:14:58] Yeah. They. They just oversimplify it to the deepest degree. And I'm sitting here as myself and a lot of my family members going, like, we believe to such a deep degree. And that's why this is such a painful experience. And for that not to be seen by the general public or, you know, people still of the faith is sad to me because I feel like if it could be just seen and understood and acknowledged as real pain, we could have healing conversations with members who are still believers. And. But there is this, like, nobody wants to do that because no one wants their pain to go unacknowledged. We've already been there for so long that we're not going to risk that again. We're not going to get into conversations like that again because there's just too much to unfold. So then we gravitate towards other people who have deconstructed and other people who are already ex. Mo or X this, X that. Because we just. We get it. We're not going to be. Our pain's not going to be diminished anymore.

Guest [01:15:58] Yeah. Yeah. I think for a lot of them, it's hard to hold space for emotion and empathy at the same time. I think a lot of people see that as weakness, and so.

Rachel Wunderli [01:16:15] Or

Guest [01:16:18] it's just uncomfortable for them to. To be in that space with someone in that. And they need to. You know, I don't label it or withdraw from it.

Rachel Wunderli [01:16:29] Yeah.

Guest [01:16:30] And it's just hard for them. And I think if more people could sit in that empathy and sit in that emotion, not. Not feeling that the emotion is bad in any way.

Rachel Wunderli [01:16:41] Right.

Guest [01:16:42] There'd be a lot more peace and a lot more love in the transition.

Rachel Wunderli [01:16:48] Yeah.

Guest [01:16:48] And faith transition, especially in family and friendships and even online community, really.

Rachel Wunderli [01:16:56] I totally agree. I think empathy is a huge thing in general, a huge thing that we need and a huge thing that lacks. And it's just, it's really, it's really unfortunate because I do feel like I'm all about having conversation about it. And I do feel like at the end of the day, if somebody can just, just listen to what your experience is without automatically thinking how this might be offensive to their. Them or their story, and they just hear it for what it is and receive that. I think we could, we could come together as just a society in general a lot more than we have been able to. But the empathy thing is very interesting to me because. Yeah, when you're, I mean, when you're taught not to, and I mean this in the most respectful way, but when you are taught not to think for yourself or question things or doubt things, things like empathy and emotion become way hard. And then acts of service become easy because you're just kind of like, do, do, do. And that's where we gain the great community that shows up with 30 people every time you have to move. And there are awesome good things that come with that and good perks that come with people just kind of going straight for, for to service because they have the energy to do that, because they're not sitting in all these conversations trying to actually feel and hear people's pain to make greater change. They're just like, okay, how can I help in this moment? And is that service bad? Absolutely not. We need that. We need that so badly. That's, that's the perk of community. But, but I wish we saw a lot more of both, of being able to sit in both spaces.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] The other thing I'm frustrated with when I, I think about you reaching the point of wanting to take your life is that if you're raised Jewish or Catholic or Mormon or whatever, evangelical Christian, you've got your identity, you've got your community, you've got your spirituality, you've got your life path. You, you know what your purpose is and you just, if you know if it's going right, you just do it. There's no equivalent for a secular person, really, like, like, oh, you're not going to be any of these religions. You're a teen or a young adult. That's secular. Oh, well, here's your morals, here's your values, here's your spirituality. And you already said it. It's so much work to have to figure all that out on your own. Yeah, but, like, I guess your brain isn't even fully formed to your 26. So, like. Like, I'm grateful I didn't drink or do drugs in high school or college because I. I'm just glad I didn't have to deal with that complexity because that's a really useful time to be able to, like, prepare for what life's gonna hand to you. But, like, secular kids don't have that package that they can just go, oh, well, this is me. And I still have standards, and I still have an identity, and I still have spirituality, and I still have a community, to your point. And they'll. Well, you know, that village will help me come to age 26 with the fully formed brain without having reached the point where I wanted to die by suicide. Right. Because that community and that structure is there for me. My kids didn't have that. They don't have that. You didn't have that. And it's just. It's something that. Yet why do you have to have a religion based on myth to get a solid structure of a life path to help you get to a fully formed brain at age 26 without falling in a thousand potholes?

Rachel Wunderli [01:20:31] Yes. That's a. The brain development thing is something that my siblings now almost joke about with me because I bring it up so much because I think it's so important that we actually talk about that. Because I'm looking at my cousins who are not Mormon, and I'm like, oh, they did not decide to drink on their own till they were in their 20s, because they just saw the. The real repercussions for what that would do, not just with your brain development, but the actions that. That you take in life. Like, they were just taught, you know, don't drink until this certain period of time, because here's how it'll affect your brain, and here are the bad consequences that could happen should A, B, or C happen. And. And none of it was around a myth. None of it was around religion. They were just given real practical reasons as to why you shouldn't do this. And then given the choice, and then it's like, okay, now, you know, all the repercussions. Like, I don't know if I would have drank or had, you know, premarital sex had I been given the real, raw reality of what those consequences could be. Because once I started questioning faith, the faith then very quickly became not a good enough reason for me. To not do these things, I needed real, practical, tangible reasons as to why premarital sex could end in a bad situation or why not understanding sexual assault could lead to more sexual assault, not just, oh, dress modestly so that guys don't touch you. I needed a way more than that for guidance in regards to how to not be sexually assaulted.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] And your parents aren't like, oh, Rachel's not totally choosing the Mormon way, so let's provide her with a really sound holistic, secular, you know, structure.

Rachel Wunderli [01:22:18] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:19] They're just like, why isn't Rachel obeying the gospel? And now let's kick her out. And I'm not. I'm not throwing shade on your parents because I'm sure you were hard, just like a lot of teens are hard. And I'm sure they were just doing the best they could, but they're. All they were processing is she isn't doing what she should be doing. And not. Let's provide her with a. With another path that's holistic.

Rachel Wunderli [01:22:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:42] You know, and a system that integrates. Well, you're just left to the. To the wolves, so to speak.

Rachel Wunderli [01:22:49] Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, even with their moderate upbringing of it all, I'm sure growing up around the people we grew up around, that they did bring both into play of, here's why you don't do it because of the church, and here's why you don't do it practically, but because all I was surrounded by was. Was the church indoctrination that. It's like that trumped everything. So I do not remember a single moment where it was where I was given practical advice about this stuff. And that's not because I don't believe that it didn't happen. I'm sure I was in conversations with my dad, being the logical lawyer that he is. I'm sure he gave me certain things that I wish I would have remembered, but at the time, the faith at large trumped that. It did not matter.

John Dehlin [01:23:34] And so it's this type of vacuum that leads people who are raised secular or people who fall away from their religious system to fall prey to either getting back into the religious system or to join some other cult or religious system. It's this exact vacuum. So take us now back to this story of you in the alleyway and praying, because where this all leads you is to recommit to Mormonism. Right?

Mental Health Crisis and Suicide Attempt

Rachel Wunderli [01:24:00] Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Yeah. So take us back to that dark moment. And then.

Rachel Wunderli [01:24:04] Yeah, that was a. That was my. My first. I've had, I'll say, three rock bottoms in my lifetime at this point. That was the first one.

John Dehlin [01:24:14] Around what age?

Rachel Wunderli [01:24:15] I was 21. I was around 21 when this happened.

John Dehlin [01:24:19] And you're in an alleyway.

Rachel Wunderli [01:24:21] In an alleyway, literally middle of the night, praying to the stars. And I was like, heavenly Father, I need, I need you to show up in. Sir, in. In a big way. Because I'm not going to get myself out of this. I'm not able to get myself out of this. And I don't know where I land spiritually right now. So I'll just say I am, I am in a place where I believe and we can get some things there. But like, you know, I don't. I wouldn't say it's. It's a certain religion's God, but at this time, I'm praying to Heavenly Father and I'm just like, I need, I need something to, to happen. And within that same week or two, my dad.

John Dehlin [01:24:58] This is after the suicide attempt.

Rachel Wunderli [01:24:59] This was. So the suicide attempt was a slow roller. So that, I mean, I don't know how, how graphic can we get on this?

John Dehlin [01:25:07] Whatever you feel comfortable.

Rachel Wunderli [01:25:08] Okay, cool. I remember sitting in a conversation with my dad at one point, who he's tried really hard to understand mental health stuff and he's gotten a lot better. But at this point, he kind of flippantly said a statement of if any of my kids ever come in, committed suicide, I would be so mad I wouldn't even throw them a funeral. And he. I don't remember what we were talking about, but that's. That sentence stayed in my mind. So for me, with the suicide attempt, I basically thought to myself, I have to make it look like an accident.

John Dehlin [01:25:35] Maybe we should do a trigger warning for those who might be sensitive to talks about suicidal ideation or completion. Practice self care.

Rachel Wunderli [01:25:44] Yes, yes, perfect. So I needed to make it look like an accident. So what I decided to do was I only had access to. Because I was living in the alleyway at this point, so I only had access to alcohol for free. Everything else I would have to buy. So I spent six weeks drinking myself to death and not eating food, not drinking water, not drinking anything that would provide, I don't know, physical healing on the backside of the amount of alcohol I would drink. Drink. I only had access to alcohol. So I only drank alcohol. And according to the Internet at the time, without food and water, you got like a couple few days. And I was thinking, I'm gonna be gone after about five days, a week at most. And it ended up being like a Brutal six week endeavor of a bender of me just like blacking out and every single time hoping that I wasn't gonna wake up. That time I was like, okay, this time it's gotta be it. I mean, my. My body shut down. I do not know how my body ever actually recovered from that. I went to the doctor after that and they don't know how my body recovered after that, but it was very. I was just doing a number on my body in hopes that I would not wake up thinking it'd be a couple days. Ended up being a few weeks. And it was just brutal.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] And. And the thinking was that your dad wouldn't think of it as a death by suicide because it would have just been. You dropped drink.

Rachel Wunderli [01:27:12] Yep. He would just think, oh, she kind of pushed her limits and too much. Yep. Drank too much and wouldn't know that it was on purpose. So that was my mentality behind that. So. Yeah. So then he picked me up from the. From the frat house at some point in this time. And honestly, this time is so blurry to me because I was just so. My brain could not function normally. I was just dehydrated to the deep to the highest degree. I don't remember a lot of that other than I ended up back at my house. I remember when he picked me up and I remember being back at my house and I remember detoxing for months after that on my own because I was still. I was. I never told my parents at that point how bad it was. They just knew that I was like incapable of, I don't know, thinking for myself. The conversations were hard. I just kind of hibernated and detoxed on my own for about six months. Months after that.

John Dehlin [01:28:10] And then what, what, what brought you back to church?

Rachel Wunderli [01:28:13] And then I. The relationship that I had been in my senior year of high school through all the frat lifes. We were together for like four years. Ended. Oh, and that was. That was pretty brutal. And it was right around the time that I thought I was. I was getting better. So it was, it was a surprise. But we. We ended up and I said to myself, okay, well, I've given the you everything that I have and I've experienced that to the fullest. So. And I want to kind of get back into the church and like. And like, live a better life and not party as much. So where do I go? Byu. I drove down to BYU to hang out with my one friend that I had down there and met my future husband within that same weekend of hanging out with this group of all returned missionaries, all BYU students, and just got roped into the polar opposite crowd of the crowd that I had been running with for the last few years.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] I mean, it must have looked really appealing, right? Clean, squeaky white, happy.

Rachel Wunderli [01:29:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:21] Chaste, More quote, moral chaste.

Rachel Wunderli [01:29:24] Oh yeah. This was everything. I mean my, my, that group and, and my future husband, like he was everything that I was taught as a attendee to find at in my life. This priesthood holding return missionary and all of his friends were like that. And I remember feeling like the oddball for sure, for pretty much that entire time. But it was still safe. Like it felt so safe. And I felt very protected and I felt like, this is gonna save me. This is gonna totally save me. And he was also attracted to the rebel cause he liked being the savior. So we were this perfectly codependent match of he's gonna save me. And I wanted that and he's gonna save me and he wanted that. And it was just like, he was like reconverting me and re bringing me back into the fold. And I ate up every second of the it for a period of time. I was just like, yeah, I was just like, this is going to be, this is going to be good. This is going to be great. We're going to raise our kids Mormon. And at the time it was just like, we're raising our kids Mormon, but I don't really want to get married in the temple. I was kind of like on the line there. I was like, I'm not really temple ready, but I'm ready to go back to church and to raise our kids in the way that we were raised.

John Dehlin [01:30:53] So how, like, what was the amount of time between meeting him, getting engaged, getting married, and how did that all go?

Rachel Wunderli [01:31:01] We met, we got engaged like eight months later, we got married. We got married within about a year of dating. So met got married a year later. Yeah. And in that time period that we were dating, he basically was trying to, you know, get me to get back into the super active realm. We would read scriptures together occasionally and go to church together every Sunday and stuff. And then we broke up for a period of time, just for like a month. And in that period of time, I was like so desperate to be back with him that I was like, I'm going to read the Book of Mormon cover to cover again and like read it three times or something. And got my patriarchal blessing in this period of time. And he was all really supportive of this. And I was just like, honestly, I don't even know what I was looking for. But I was so desperate for a level of. Of safety that I hadn't had for so long that, That I was just willing to kind of do whatever he wanted. So he. It was important to him that I got my patriarchal blessing. So I did. It was important to him that I read the Book of Mormon cover to cover again as an adult. So I did. And we ended up getting engaged, like, a few months after this breakup. And because that's so healthy. And at that point, it was a decision of, are we going to get married in the temple? Are we not? And I begged him for so long to not get married in the temple. I just said, I'm not ready for that level yet. I'm not ready to go to family events with their. Their expectation now being that I'm wearing my garments. And so I'm not ready to, like, have to cater what my outward appearance to the church right now. Like, I'm not. I'm just trying to figure out kind of what I believe when it comes to theology and doctrine. Like, I don't want any added social pressures. And the temple, I feel like, is going to put my family and your family in this position of thinking that I am at a certain level of Mormonism that I'm not at yet. And so the warnings came left and right, and I was warning, and my family members were even warning him, like, I don't know if she's gonna change after you guys get married. Like, are you okay with this level of Mormon that she is? Which was a goer who still occasionally drank, but I still went and I wanted to raise my kids in it. So.

John Dehlin [01:33:24] Did you drink in front of him?

Rachel Wunderli [01:33:27] I think when we were dating maybe one time, and it was. He didn't really say anything about it. It wasn't like a big deal. I had told him, I said, if we get married in the temple, it finally came down to this. I said, if we get married in the temple, then that's fine, but don't expect me to stop, stop, stop drinking right away and don't expect me to wear my garments right away and don't. And I basically gave him this list of, like, here's what I'm not ready for. But if you, if you care so much because your parents are gonna judge the situation if you don't get married in the temple. Because there was high pressure from his family, who was staunch, staunch, like, way more strict Mormon than I grew up with. Like, then I will get married in the temple. But all of these things aren't things that I'm ready for. And he completely agreed, like, totally was like this, that's fine. I respect that completely. We'll take things at your own pace is the verbiage he used all the time. We'll take things at your own pace once you get married, once we go through the temple, we'll take things at your own pace. So we get.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] I have two questions.

Rachel Wunderli [01:34:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] Number one, why weren't you all in? Why weren't you? Because you had hit rock bottom. Like, oh, yeah, I'll wear my garments, I'll. I'll stop drinking forever. I mean, because, because some of the most orthodox Mormons I've ever met had those moments of dark crashing rock bottom and their response to that was ultra orthodoxy. And I'm just wondering why you didn't follow that pattern. And then I have a second question.

Rachel Wunderli [01:35:00] I think I was. My, my depression had not fully subsided. So in regards to self medicating and things like that, I wasn't ready to fully commit to like a lifetime of sobriety. So with word of wisdom stuff, it had to do with that. And I had social anxiety around the idea of giving that up because it was a lot. Most of my friends were not active Mormon or Mormon at all. And then when it came to things like garments and that type of stuff, I was just like, it was all the social expectation. I just felt like for so long I was expected to be this certain type of person and I was just done living like that. And I did not want the added judgment from my family who knew that I was inactive. Like my aunts and uncles, they had gotten to a point where they all knew that I was inactive and it was kind of accepted and I didn't want to put myself back in this position where they're like, oh, well, you got married in the temple, so now we've, we expect you to be this full fledged MO And I'm just not mentally there yet. So I was just very. Oh. And I wasn't, I mean, I wasn't mentally there yet just because I think just time, I was just didn't have enough time. I was in rock bottom one second and the next second I was like saved by this priesthood holder. So I just didn't have enough time to really process where I was gonna land in regards to Mormonism in general at this point. I still hadn't even looked into like anything that had to do with our history or anything like that. I was just kind of like very surface level belief.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] Next Question. You talked about how some of those Mormon boys in high school would judge you for word of wisdom stuff, but they weren't super strict with themselves with law of chastity stuff during courtship. And, you know, was he flexible in those ways or was he staunch in those ways? Did he fit the pattern of those high school Mormon boys?

Rachel Wunderli [01:36:51] Oh, he fit the pattern. He fit the pattern for sure. Yeah. He. We did not. I had already lost my virginity before, like, before him. He had not. So he did want. Want to save his virginity for marriage, which we did. But everything else was kind of like. It was kind of like he'd give way to certain things in that realm. And then when it came to drinking or coffee even, I remember his mom finding an iced tea bottle in his car. And. And there was a scene that was created around this iced tea bottle that was mine because, like, who is drinking iced tea in our household? But those things would be, like, highlighted as bad. And then, you know, what we were doing in our private time was definitely not along the lines of the Mormon Church in the staunch ways that he gave off that he was following.

John Dehlin [01:37:44] I mean, that's kind of that pattern of byu of doing everything but. And all the creative ways to be sexual without tradition. Just explicit intercourse, I guess.

Rachel Wunderli [01:37:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They really got away with a lot of things that they didn't deem as, like, breaking a rule. But he honestly felt. Did feel really guilty, like, every time. But, you know, he'd give away to temptation. It was just kind of weird that he just never. The word of wisdom was judged so much harder than the law of chastity.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] And that's so weird because, number one, the word of wisdom, when it was written, was optional.

Rachel Wunderli [01:38:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] It was a recommendation. And then secondly, we're taught that premarital sex is next to murder.

Rachel Wunderli [01:38:30] Right?

John Dehlin [01:38:31] So, like, word of wisdom stuff, the hammer's being thrown down on you. He's all, like, above you, and his family's all above you, and yet he's as engaged in the sin next to murder is much or more than you. And, like, free pass, like, no big deal. That's a weird hypocrisy.

Rachel Wunderli [01:38:50] It is weird. And I would say those exact same things to him. Like, even in bishop interviews and stuff, I remember thinking that answering questions about the law of chastity was way worse. Like, I was way more nervous around those topics, and those topics got more punishment in regards to, like, how long you had to go without taking the sacrament. I remember if I confessed to a sexual sin, I couldn't take the sacrament for close to six months to a year. And if I admitted to drinking, my bishop was like, all right, three weeks, or something like that. So I remember using these things to argue with my husband about, like, why am I not being punished for these things as much? And you're saying that these things are like, okay, like, we'll let that fly. It just made no sense. It made no sense.

Temple Marriage and Its Aftermath

John Dehlin [01:39:38] So you ultimately agreed to get married in the temple?

Rachel Wunderli [01:39:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] And were you guys worthy, you know, to get married the temple?

Rachel Wunderli [01:39:46] I wouldn't say so. I wouldn't say. I'd say we were trying real hard. Um, for me, I'd be like, we were really good by the time we got married in the temple. But from his. For his standards, he probably felt a little guilt going in. But I remember, like, I took my endowments out three days before we went through to get married. So we did the whole. My first time going through was three days before. And I remember he was just so excited. Nothing that we had done leading up to that moment mattered at this point. Like, at this point, anything. Any little sin that we had committed together. He's like, it did not matter. He was just stoked that I was about to go through the temple for the first time. And so I'm reading his response, like, his anticipation for this moment. And we're driving to the temple, and I remember going with my mom, who was, like, moderately active at this point. My aunt's mom, who was the Mother Teresa of Mormonism, still is to this day. Very active, very loving. And then his.

Guest [01:40:47] Him.

Rachel Wunderli [01:40:48] And I was expecting this great experience because that's what he was amping me up for. And when I went through for the first time, I remember being in, like, being. Coming out of it, like, four or five hours later, just ghost white, and just felt like I was gonna throw up. And I couldn't talk to him for the majority of the rest of that night. I was kind of just really surprised.

John Dehlin [01:41:13] What was wrong with the Tower temple?

Rachel Wunderli [01:41:15] I was so shocked at. All right, I'm trying to phrase this in the most respectful way possible.

John Dehlin [01:41:25] Shoot.

Rachel Wunderli [01:41:25] Okay. I was really shocked at how culty it was. I was shocked at, like, I picked up on things like when we were watching the video of Adam and Eve, how Satan would tell the church to do something, or Satan would make a request, and then we would pause the video and do the request that. That Satan had requested. And I was like, that is weird. Okay, that's interesting. And I remember, like, getting, like, the temple name and all that stuff and just going, why does any of this matter? Like, why does. Because my relationship with the Heavenly Father, that I knew who I was always so close to in prayer, I'm like, why does any of this matter?

John Dehlin [01:42:07] And why'd you need a new name?

Rachel Wunderli [01:42:09] Why do I need a new name name? Why do I need to be covered? Why is a veil covering my face right now? So that the men can go do A, B and C? And I'm just kind of sitting here. I felt like, like it. I was living the documentaries of cults that I had watched prior to that, especially when it came to, like, even fundamentalist Mormons. Like, I, for my whole life had defended the Mormon Church against flds because I was like, no, we are not even close to that. We don't do, like, weird traditions or things like that. That. And then I'm going through the temple and I'm like, we do a bunch of weird stuff. It's just we don't talk about it or show it on TV or anything like that. So I just felt almost betrayed by my own traditions. I was just like, this is really, really bizarre. And I just. The. The day that I found out, and I'm pretty sure it was all in the same day, the day that I realized that my ex was going to have to be the one to call me through the gates of heaven and like, in. To order. Order for me to reside with my God for eternity. That or for me to gain eternal life or start an eternal planet, that I would have to wait for my husband to call me through. That, to me, was so jarring in that moment. I didn't even really have, like, words for it. And I knew that if I were to express that to him, I wasn't sure if we'd go through with the wedding. That was in three days. So I had so much that I was thinking about because I wanted to time to process what I was struggling with from that experience. But I only had three days, and so I kind of just buried it. And it was very obvious how I felt about it. I couldn't hide my face. But the next day I kind of was just like, okay, that happened and we're going to continue with the wedding. But it was really jarring to go through.

John Dehlin [01:43:57] For those who don't know, in the Mormon Temple, men and women receive new names.

Rachel Wunderli [01:44:02] But.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] But the husband is allowed to know the wife's new name because there's a moment in the temple ceremony where the husband brings the wife through the veil and he needs to call her name. And that's how it's going to be in heaven. And so that's also why the husband needs to know the wife's name. Because in heaven, when they get exalted, it's the husband that's going to bring the wife through the veil. But the wife can't know the husband's name.

Rachel Wunderli [01:44:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:27] And so there's this weird patriarchal thing going on, Right?

Rachel Wunderli [01:44:31] Yep. It's. It's. It's very weird. It's very. It was very weird. And I just. I remember being in the last room of the ceremony, and I finally see him there in the room, and he's just kind of giving me this look, like, wasn't that the most amazing thing you've ever experienced? And I'm sitting there going, like, where's the nearest trash can? Because I actually want to puke. Like, I did not feel good. I just. I just really. I felt physically ill and I. And he saw my face and was just like. It didn't. Like, that moment didn't save her. Okay. I don't know what. What we're going to do. And it was just kind of weird. It was.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] By then, it's like three days to the.

Rachel Wunderli [01:45:14] Yeah. Three days till the wedding.

John Dehlin [01:45:16] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [01:45:16] We really didn't have a choice at that point, so we thought.

John Dehlin [01:45:19] Because to call it all off is a big deal.

Rachel Wunderli [01:45:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] You would have gone through probably when the woman hearkened to the husband. So the husband committed to God to obey God, but the woman would commit to the husband to kind of hearken to the husband's counsel. So the woman's covenant wasn't with God, it was the husband. And then the husband's covenant was with God. That.

Rachel Wunderli [01:45:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:45:42] That would have been how it was. They've changed that since you went through. Oh, because feminists. Because feminists complained enough for 100, whatever, 80 years.

Guest [01:45:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:53] It was like. It was like. It was.

Guest [01:45:54] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [01:45:54] I must have been right on the

John Dehlin [01:45:56] cusp also, that women don't have to veil their faces anymore.

Rachel Wunderli [01:46:00] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:46:00] This is brand pretty. Pretty much brand new.

Rachel Wunderli [01:46:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:46:03] Thank you. Thank you, feminists. You know, thank you, Internet.

Rachel Wunderli [01:46:06] Well, I. I mean, yeah. Even with, like, garments, I think I was still in the era where you. You had to wear your bra over your garments and things like that. And it was just like.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] How awesome was that?

Rachel Wunderli [01:46:16] It was so awesome. It was my favorite thing. It was just. Honestly, I'm pretty.

John Dehlin [01:46:22] Imagine wearing a T shirt under your bra, basically.

Rachel Wunderli [01:46:25] Yeah. Yeah. Like a silk Spanx, but your bra's over it. And so it's very slippery and it's not ideal. It was weird.

John Dehlin [01:46:35] So you, but you did it, you got married.

Rachel Wunderli [01:46:38] Got married. I got married. And I remember telling Trevor that week I shouldn't have used his name. But that's okay, I've already used it on social media. I remember telling him, you know, I just really don't want to do this because I think the reaction from my family is going to be pretty obvious and I don't want, I don't want to be judged for a day that I don't wear garments. Well, me being, you know, the rebel that I am. The day after we get married, it's August, it's really hot. I'm in short shorts and a T shirt and we're moving my stuff from my. Wherever I was living to our new apartment. And I remember I had a family member come over and my ex is right next to me and she just looks at my thigh and puts her finger on my thigh and just goes, wow already. And totally makes like this moment out of me not wearing my garments. She garment shamed me within 24 hours of my wedding. And I just remember looking at, looking at him, just going like, basically with this look of like, see exactly what I was afraid of happening. Happened less than 24 hours after we got married.

Guest [01:47:44] Worried.

Rachel Wunderli [01:47:45] And he was like, I think pretty worried at that point because he knew I was right and I don't think he knew how to deal with it. So. So yeah, that happened and we, we went on our honeymoon and I got wasted on our honeymoon because at that moment I'm kind of thinking, I think we were both thinking what did we just do? And I operated in self medicating mode and at large. It was like the trip was fine, it wasn't like totally tainted by that. But I think he wasn't mad at

John Dehlin [01:48:17] you for drinking on your.

Rachel Wunderli [01:48:18] Oh no, he was, he was, I think at that point looking back, he emotionally detached in that moment. He started emotionally detaching after we went through the temple when he realized it was not going to be a coming to Jesus moment for me, that that ceremony was not going to save me, that it was going to take a lot more than that, that for me to be in it. And he really could not deal with that very well.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] And so almost no one I've entered, you know, we're 1600 episodes into Mormon stories. Almost no one had a good temple experience that I've ever interviewed. Like literally almost no one.

Rachel Wunderli [01:48:56] Not even the people who were like super active too.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] Not even them Like, I mean, occasionally it happens, but.

Rachel Wunderli [01:49:02] No. I think they're so shocked. They're so shocked.

Guest [01:49:05] Yeah. Not for me. It was not good for me either.

John Dehlin [01:49:08] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [01:49:08] And you were super active at the time that you.

Guest [01:49:11] Like, I was, I was super active. And all the things that you listed, like, I wrote them down as you were saying them, and I'm like, yep, yep, yep. It's. It's like the same list in my mind of everything.

John Dehlin [01:49:25] You weren't a blackout party frat sorority girl. You were a.

Guest [01:49:29] No.

John Dehlin [01:49:30] Faithful, devout.

Guest [01:49:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] Molly. Mormon.

Guest [01:49:33] Yeah. At the time.

Rachel Wunderli [01:49:33] Yep, yep, yep. That's my sibling stories too. The, the devout ones still went through, like, what. What was that? That's a part of our church. No.

Guest [01:49:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] And now Russell Nelson's built a 100, announced a hundred temples in like four years. Like, they're, they're tripling down.

Rachel Wunderli [01:49:51] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [01:49:52] Tripling down on temples.

Rachel Wunderli [01:49:53] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:49:54] Anyway, saturated off track. Okay. So you get married, you have your honeymoon and your husband's like, what did I do? She's not.

Rachel Wunderli [01:50:03] But you're, on the other hand, regretting it.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] But on the other hand, you're like, not. You sleeping in the alley, right? You're not getting. You're not wanting to die. Not black blackout drunk all the time. So for you, you've upgraded your life.

Rachel Wunderli [01:50:17] Yeah, right? Yeah, I've totally upgraded. I. I've upgraded and we're like, like, still like, you know, going to church. And I kind of feel like, okay, I've landed in at least what I was always brought up to believe I should have as a woman. I've, I've got it. I've got this priesthood holding husband who's going to raise our kids Mormon, and he's going to, you know, go to school. And it's all going to be about his career. And he's going to be in oral surgery, so he's going to be super successful. And it's like, all about that. And I really thought that I had made it. I just thought, you know, in comparison to where I was two years prior to our wedding, like, I'm in a good spot. So even if I'm drinking occasionally, that's still miles better than where I was before. So I'm thinking that he's gonna kind of give me this pat on the back and instead it was like, you are not even close to where I need you to be at this point. And. And he didn't really bring a lot of that up throughout. We were married for a year total, and he didn't really bring that up. Through the remainder of that year he would get very upset when I would drink and rightfully so, because at that point I was really trying not to. And the only time that I would is when I was like really self medicating with it. And I would become suicidal in those moments because I just felt trapped in the marriage. Marriage. And I didn't really know how to say that. And so we both felt trapped in different ways and just never communicated that to each other. So we never uttered the word divorce. That was not mentioned. So when he filed out of the blue, it was like I was completely shocked.

John Dehlin [01:51:58] Was that a bad first year overall, just in terms of how you got along?

Rachel Wunderli [01:52:02] It didn't seem like a bad first year. It seemed like we were, we, we got along, we were great friends. It was all to do with church stuff. Every single fight we would get in, every argument, it all was centered on this is what Heavenly Father wants us to do. And this is what you are doing and they're not adding up. And that is what he would say. And he would speak in, in those ways as well. Like I joke now when I watch under the Banner of Heaven. I'm sure a lot of people have seen that by now. I've heard from a lot of active Mormons like, oh, people don't really talk like that. Like how they say Heavenly Father all the this and that all the time. Sure, to a certain degree they had to get the script across so they had to exaggerate in the way that they were speaking. But I have proof of my ex speaking the exact same ways that Andrew Garfield speaks in the show to me while we're getting divorced saying, you know, Heavenly Father just really wants you to wear your garments, but like he wants you to want to wear your garments and things like that. He was saying to me and I'm like, but I'm trying really hard to want to wear, do these things, but I can't help that I don't want to. I'll do them, but I don't want to do them. And I don't know how to change the fact that I don't want that I don't have a desire. And for him it was very much around like Heavenly Father's desires are this, that and that. I'm like, really? Because that's just not adding up to like my experience. But okay, and this is probably a

John Dehlin [01:53:37] hard question, but like what kept you from just stopping drinking cold turkey and wearing the garments and just submitting to the church? And to your husband because of the

Rachel Wunderli [01:53:47] hypocrisy that I was seeing from the people who were claiming that this is what you should be doing. So if I can just call my ex out for a second and he knows that I'm doing was in the wrong a lot too. But like he, in these same moments where he was telling me to do all these things, was also not the one prepping the CTR 7's lesson, which is who we taught. Like we were assigned roles and I was the one creating the lessons for these kids and I was the one paying our tithing at the time and I was the one trying to figure out how to help the person whose spouse had just died or whatever, you know, get on the lasagna train. Like, I was the one thinking about all these things in regards to actually living what I viewed to be a Christ like life. He just cared about the checked boxes and then was spewing all this heavenly Father jargon to me at the same time. So I never wanted to fully buy into it because I, I wasn't, I wasn't sold on the fact that the people who do do those things are the Christians. Like I was all about, like, who are the Christ like ones here? Who are the ones who are going to be driving to church and see the person on the side of the road who needs help and stop to help them, knowing that they're going to be late for church versus the one who's going to pass the person who needs help. Because being on time to church is important. My ex was the most, most of the time the one who needed to be on time to church versus and this is not me trying to make myself sound like a saint in any way. But, but I would be thinking more about, okay, where are the burnt out and the beat down people that we actually need to help versus what boxes have we checked today? What, what scriptures have we read today? How many days of the week have we prayed today? I didn't give a rip about that stuff at that point because I'm hearing it coming from somebody who didn't care about actually helping the person in need.

Divorce and Leaving Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:55:44] This may sound harsh, but what about just falling in line to save your marriage or because you love him?

Rachel Wunderli [01:55:51] I, well, I did, I did to like a pretty deep degree towards the end there. So like, he did not give me warning signs that a divorce was going to take place in the slightest. So by the time he throws that word out, his bag is already packed and he moved to a friend's house. Like that Same day. So I was in shock. And in this state of shock, we probably stayed in a, a council type state of mind in our marriage for about two months. And in that two months, I was willing to do anything. Like, I remember having recordings of myself saying, like, I will. I, I want to want these things and I will do anything. And I was promising him at that point that I would like, fine, I'll try to wear my garments and I'll, I'll do this and I'll do that. I mean, I really like, like, pleaded with him for a long, long time. Like, when it really came down to the divorce, he went full force with it. And we, we had filed and it was done within like, a few weeks. It was very, very quick. And for me, I would have, I would have, like, done anything to make it work, including all those things that I didn't believe were necessary.

John Dehlin [01:57:03] You feel like you loved him?

Rachel Wunderli [01:57:05] Yes, I feel like I did love him for, at the time. Now, having experienced real deep love, I don't think that that's, that was love. I think that we were more buddies, though. Like, we did have a good friendship and I care about him still and I want the best for him. But it wasn't unconditional love. It wasn't, it wasn't unconditional. That's. That's what it was. We had very, we had love. It was very conditional.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] Yeah. And. And like you said with your own family, Mormons often aren't raised to talk about the hard stuff.

Rachel Wunderli [01:57:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:43] So I can, I could imagine you just being caught totally off guard because he wasn't communicating as explicitly with you as maybe he could have. He's probably afraid to. I'm also guessing that maybe he was keeping his parents informed about your lack of obedience. And maybe his parents were like, fishing, you know, cut babies, state before you guys have kids and you can find the right girl, you know?

Rachel Wunderli [01:58:04] Yeah, yeah. He actually, I remember him calling his stake president from his home ward in Florida, basically saying, this is what's going on and should I leave her? And the stake president told him to leave me. And that was the thing that I was really wrestling with because I'm like, but the church that I grew up in my whole life is anti divorce. Even if somebody's being abused, like, they'll like, kind of. Of advise you to stay in it. So I'm like, this is not. Surely what I'm doing is not the worst thing in the world is what I was thinking. And yeah, he definitely had support on the back side. Of the divorce, basically, like, yeah, sure, this is. You should totally do that. If she's not a faithful member, then you should leave.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] So what was that like to have your Hollywood marriage, not your Hollywood, like your fairy tale Mormon marriage, end in a year?

Rachel Wunderli [01:58:57] I was devastated. I mean, I was. I was so. My life. My life vision for the upcoming 10 years was so catered towards what he wanted to do and where we were going to move for him. And also, I'd been just trying so hard to get back into, like, the active fold that I just felt like. I just kind of felt like I lost everything. I was losing my. My faith, my sense of reality, and my husband all at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:59:34] Plus, it's so embarrassing familially and socially, because a temple marriage within Mormonism is such a celebration. You invite everyone. Your parents, your grandparents, your aunts, uncle, siblings, all the ward members. They all come and it's like. It's like, oh, she did it. She's back on track. So, like, to disappoint everyone in your familial and social structure after only a year, I can't imagine what a burden that must have been psychologically to you.

Rachel Wunderli [02:00:05] Yeah. I mean, luckily my side of the family, other than a handful of people who took his side, my side of the family was not surprised because I had been the rebel my whole life. So they were kind of going, all right. Right. We didn't see you staying in the church forever. They didn't tell me this till after we were divorced, but. But I was just very. I felt very betrayed by the community at large that he was getting support to divorce me when that's the last thing that I thought the church would support. And so when the church at large and leaders within the church supported his divorce, when I'm sitting here trying and working my butt off to try to, like, be the active goer, it was just. It was super jarring, super devastating.

John Dehlin [02:00:58] Yeah. But, yeah, okay, so where to go from there?

Rachel Wunderli [02:01:05] Christianity.

John Dehlin [02:01:08] So you had to. You would have had to fully deconstruct Mormonism to move to Christianity, Right?

Rachel Wunderli [02:01:15] Kind of. You would think, except that I jumped into Christianity so fast after that that my deconstruction of Mormonism happened simultaneously, that my reconstruction of, like, biblical beliefs in Christianity happened. So it was really confusing. I didn't really have a moment where I deconstructed all of the Mormon church and then was kind of agnostic or atheist and was just like, oh, yep, this is what I've come to terms with. It was very much a say okay, I'm gonna jump into this belief and learn this belief and at the same time ask questions to my core group at the Christian church, like, is this a Mormon thought or a Christian?

John Dehlin [02:01:54] Okay, wait, let's back up. So how do you go. You get your temple divorce, your ceiling is whatever. How do you convert to Christianity as a Mormon? Even as a liberal Mormon or a lax Mormon or as a semi Jack Mormon?

Rachel Wunderli [02:02:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:10] That doesn't just, just happen. How did it, how did it happen?

Rachel Wunderli [02:02:13] It happened. Well, it was about six months after our divorce. I just, it. Okay, no, I'll back up. The month that we were getting divorced, I had one coworker out of a bunch of Mormon co workers. I had one Christian coworker. And I remember telling her, like, I have always had a relationship with God. So I thought, and I don't know how to lose that on top of my religion, but, but this religion's the only true religion. And I was kind of like fighting for the religion to her and to which she just basically said, you know what, I'm going to send you some stuff. I just want you to listen to it. No pressure whatsoever, but I think it'll bring you some comfort. And I was willing to try anything at this point. So I, she started sending me sermons and worship music and I had never in my life heard a sermon before. I had been to Jewish ceremonies and I had been to Catholic mass before, but I had never really listened to like a non denominational charismatic pastor speak on the, the Bible. So I started listening in my cubicle, nine to five job, eight hours a day of sermons. And in between each sermon I'd listen to worship music, which for me as a musician, going from hymns that I thought were just sinfully boring to worship music was like, my world exploded in the best way was like, whoa, this is truth. And my. I kind of ignorantly thought that I was in this moment stepping into, oh, this is the ultimate truth. Like I've been being told my whole life that I've landed on the ultimate truth when really the Bible and the things that I've had right in front of me my whole life that the Mormon Church kind of claims to follow depending on the translation is in fact, like, there's so much more to, to figure out here when it comes to the Bible. And like, I didn't feel like I was losing all of Mormonism because I was like diving into the Bible. So I was just like, okay, I can receive this. And the sermons were very easy to swallow and they're very Much about just being a good person with a couple scriptures thrown into there. And it was. It piqued my curiosity. So that's where it all started. Was just me for five months, I think, just listening to hours of sermons and worship music every single day at my job.

John Dehlin [02:04:40] Do you remember who the pastor was for the sermons you listened to?

Rachel Wunderli [02:04:43] I remember it was from a church called VBF Vegas. Like Bible Fellowship. Vegas Bible Fellowship. I don't remember the pastor's name, but it was some church in Vegas.

John Dehlin [02:04:56] Okay, okay.

Rachel Wunderli [02:04:57] Yeah. Some big, mega church. And it was like. It was very charismatic and the. And the music was so beautiful and. And moving and, like, real. Like, I felt like, oh, these people are on fire for Jesus. Like, the Mormon Church claims to be the one true church, but the passion that I see for Jesus isn't there in comparison to what I experienced at the Christian church. I experienced just like. Like, every ounce of everyone's day and thought and musical likings all were surrounding just Jesus. And I was like, whoa, these people actually know what they're talking about. These people actually, like, study. The truth is what I. What I, like, thought in my mind at the time. So it was five months of that until I finally. She invited me to a church service at some South Mountain and Draper here. I went there for, like, a couple weeks in a row, just kind of as an attendee to just. It was the first time that I was experiencing everything that I had been listening to for so long in real life. So I felt like I was, like seeing a celebrity for the first time live at a concert. It was just the pastor spoke very similarly to the pastors that I had been listening to on a podcast. And the worship music was. Was live and incredible and the exact same to what I've been listening to

Discovering Evangelical Christianity

John Dehlin [02:06:20] was Pastor Rick at South Mountain.

Rachel Wunderli [02:06:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:06:23] Okay, so we've. We interviewed Pastor Rick.

Rachel Wunderli [02:06:25] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [02:06:26] At South Mountain on Mormon stories.

Rachel Wunderli [02:06:27] Oh, nice. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:06:28] Yeah, we'll include that in the show notes.

Rachel Wunderli [02:06:30] So.

John Dehlin [02:06:30] So he was the pastor. He's not there anymore, but he was the pastor.

Rachel Wunderli [02:06:33] Rick and Paul were the pastors.

John Dehlin [02:06:35] PA was like, founder.

Rachel Wunderli [02:06:36] Yeah. Yeah, I think he might be still there, from what I know. Yeah, I remember going there and I got involved. Involved in. They have a transition class that I'm sure he talked about, so I joined that.

John Dehlin [02:06:48] Russ Webster. Did you meet him?

Rachel Wunderli [02:06:50] I. I don't think so, no. But I remember going to their Mormon transition class, and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so cool. This is making everything make so much sense. And I Remember talking to the worship pastor at the time, Paul's son, and saying, you know, I sing, and I don't know if that's any use to you, but I'd love to join the team. And I just never really happened. I just ended up being kind of just an attendee there. It wasn't until a few months after going there, just as a kind of a ghost, that I met somebody through a job interview who said, hey, I used to go to that church too, and now I'm going to this one. 15 minutes away, and they're looking for worship leaders. And to me, just kind of wanting to be a part of a community again. And if it had to do with singing involved, I was all here for. For it. I was like, okay, well, where is this church? And can I come. Can I come visit it? And that's the first day that I stepped into the church that I ended up becoming a. Like a major role at.

John Dehlin [02:07:47] And do you. Do you want to mention that name or do you not want to mention that church?

Rachel Wunderli [02:07:50] I'll keep that off just in case.

John Dehlin [02:07:52] Okay, so. So you attended South Mountain Just for a few months.

Rachel Wunderli [02:07:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:59] But then you found this new church.

Rachel Wunderli [02:08:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:01] And. And you were interested in taking. Was it a leadership role? Is that fair to say?

Rachel Wunderli [02:08:08] I wasn't even interested in that. I just wanted community. And even if I could sing at the same time, I was like, that's cool. And at this point, I started having a testimony, I guess, if you will, of. Of Jesus Christ. And I just kind of wanted to know more about it. So I remember showing up on the first day. It was loud. It was a lot more loud and lively. Then South Mountain lights, and it was like a party church. And.

John Dehlin [02:08:33] Well, because South Mountain has rock bands. So, I mean.

Rachel Wunderli [02:08:36] And so do we. So we had rock bands. And it was. But it was like people were jumping. So s. The only difference is South Mountain, they're, like, rocking out, Right. And they're singing. You go to the church that I went to, same thing, rocking out, but we're, like, jumping a little harder at the same time. So it's like just one step up.

John Dehlin [02:08:50] Is it Pen. Pentecostal at all? Like. Like speaking in tongues kind of.

Rachel Wunderli [02:08:54] Of thing? No. There were definitely people who went to the church who spoke in tongues, but it was not. My pastors were very strict on, like, we do not do that from the pulpit. That because of their way of interpreting a certain part of scripture that talks about tongues. We were not, let's say, on the surface, something that people would find to be out abnormal or outrageous. We are very much like if, if anybody watches the Hillsong documentary. That is what we were. We were very. Lights, camera, action. Here we are. My pastor was super charismatic and big screens and live band. It was, it was just really fun. We were pretty small when I went there for the first time. So I remember it was pretty obvious that I was new because I was being introduced to everybody my first day there and they were, they knew that that was a new face. And I tried to leave that first day, just kind of, I was a little bit overwhelmed, just overstimulated. And I remember walking out of the church that first day and the worship pastor who was on the stage that day chased me out of the building to basically be like, I've heard about you. I know you can sing. Do you want to join the worship team? And I was like, yeah, like, absolutely. Like, I had kind of tried to get involved in South Mountain for a while and it just wasn't happening. So I was like, yes, like, I would love to. To. And that same week I auditioned and it was like the rest was history. I was, I was a weekly. Not just goer, but volunteer from that point forward.

John Dehlin [02:10:27] And this, this church isn't quite as big as South South Mountain was. Felt huge to me. It's not like a 15,000 mega church, but it felt really big.

Rachel Wunderli [02:10:37] This church, my, this church is at this point, I think surpassing it. They're pretty big at this.

John Dehlin [02:10:44] But when you, but when you joined.

Rachel Wunderli [02:10:45] But when I joined, we were very small.

John Dehlin [02:10:47] Oh, so it's grown since.

Rachel Wunderli [02:10:48] It's grown a ton. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] That's five years or so.

Rachel Wunderli [02:10:51] Yeah, it's about five, four years. So.

John Dehlin [02:10:53] So having been raised Mormon, having your parents and siblings still be Mormon for the most part, all your friends, like, what was it like to be really getting into an, an evangelical evangelical or a non denominational Christian church church in Utah where your whole family and friends are all still Mormon? Like, what's going through your mind? Because that's, I, I, when I left Mormonism, I investigated other religions. I could never feel comfortable anywhere. I tried Episcopalian, I tried, you know, Lutheran or, you know, Presbyterian or Methodist. I tried even Unitarian Universalist and just nothing felt right. Right.

Rachel Wunderli [02:11:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:36] So what I'm curious how you got over that because will you kind of learn a spiritual language in whatever religion you were brought up in and that becomes familiar and that becomes your spiritual language. So it's almost like trying to learn another language. But it just for me felt weird and awkward and Almost. It almost felt like I was cheating on God.

Rachel Wunderli [02:12:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:01] To pursue another religious tradition. How did you experience that?

Rachel Wunderli [02:12:04] Yeah, no, I've had many friends who will say the same thing, who have come to my church because I'll invite everybody. My take at this point was because we were so small and my pastors saw a potential like worship leader in me, I think, and they had the time to really cater to my needs. At that point I got all hands on deck for my transition where they were just kind of make, helping me make sense of the Dr. Doctrinal differences that I was wrestling with. And then like, they would validate me in these ways that I had never been, that I had never had before. Like the first time that I was ever able to say that. I think that Mormonism growing up Mormon was kind of like culty was because of them, because they were like, man, like, that must have been so difficult to grow up in like something that is so oppressive. And, and now like, we can help you find, find freedom in Jesus. And like, it's not about checking boxes and it's not about religion, it's about relationship. And they use that language a lot. It's not about religion, it's about relationship. And so what I felt like I was finding was not a new religion. I felt like what I was falling into was just like the, was a next level mindset of truth that I had just so happened to land on like the perfect situation. And, and everything that I would talk about that had to do with like, well, I don't think I could be, I could believe in another religion again. Like, I just don't know how I could do that. They would immediately come to the backside with, oh no, this isn't that though. Like, this is not a religion because of this, that and the other. This is just a relationship with Christ. And we're just trying to do our best as broken humans to, to follow the teachings of Jesus. It was very like, like very sugarcoated and very simple. Like, they made the gospel seem simple and that language was used too. It's just like the gospel is simple

John Dehlin [02:14:11] and what is it? What was it? If it's simple, what was it?

Rachel Wunderli [02:14:14] It's just that Jesus died for us. So we do not have to do any works whatsoever to gain our salvation. We just have to believe in him as the Son of God, period. And if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, it does not matter what you do. And in this life you will have eternal life. And there's no different levels of anything like that, because they're very, you know, heaven and hell. So it's just like, you just have to believe in Jesus and that's it. And we're all broken and we can stay that way and that's totally fine. And as long as you believe Jesus is the one true savior, you're good. And I was like, okay, that to me, I could get behind at the time because I was so used to Mormon mentality of the body box checking off of the boxes and the doing all of the things in order to gain salvation or be, be worthy of unconditional love. And here they're telling me, you don't need to do anything. You, you just have to be. And that was so appealing to me that then everything else that followed was just, everything made more sense as to why I would then believe that they had truth versus Mormons, that they had more truth.

John Dehlin [02:15:32] So I can see why that doctrinal simplicity that began with unconditional love and, and just immediate worthiness and that wasn't check box oriented, that was grace and not works. I can see why that was appealing to you. And I, I am noticing that it was a social conversion of sorts of. Because they were love bombing you.

Rachel Wunderli [02:15:55] Yeah, right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:57] I mean, that pastor running out. Okay, I'm going to get to the pastor running out after you. But, but, but it felt like it, it feels like love bombing. And I'm just, I'm noticing the fact that when you're like about to leave Mormonism, you don't have ward members that are love bombing you.

Rachel Wunderli [02:16:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:16] And like, I want to start there, like, why, why. What is it about Mormon culture where you weren't love bombed to keep you from leaving? Have you ever thought about that?

Rachel Wunderli [02:16:27] I have a little bit. And I honestly think it stems from fear. I think active members, they don't really want to know why you're leaving because if the reason is legitimate and valid, what do they do with that? Because then that's, that's going against their core beliefs. So they don't want to look at it. So they'll, they'll love me from a distance. My ward was never like talking crap about me behind my back after I left or anything, but it was like, it was very much like, we're not going to engage. Like my, I had ward members who were friends with my family come to some of my non denominational Christian events sometimes because they're just like, oh, we just want to show our support. But never would they want to actually listen to the reasons why I left. Because that could shake their faith a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:17:15] But that's kind of like a real missed opportunity. It's almost like the church saw you as, oh, we're losing her. Oh, she's going the dark side. Oh, she's got a problem with some of the checkboxes. She's struggling with the commandments. Well, okay, take care. They're not, they're not coming at you with the sense of love and community and support, which leaves you vulnerable to another community. That does show that level of love. Love and support and community.

Rachel Wunderli [02:17:43] Yeah, yeah, exactly. I, I think it's very easy to assume people's reasons for their actions. That's very easy because we can make it make sense with our own reality. And when you actually listen to somebody's experience and take it as truth, it most likely will jack up certain parts of your own reality. And that's uncomfortable and we don't like to be uncomfortable, so.

John Dehlin [02:18:05] Yeah, but the weird thing is, is Mormons love bomb you on your way in. If you're a convert, if you're an investigator to the church, or if you're an 8 year old kid, you're going to get love bombed the heck out of, you know, they're going to love bomb you to death. You know what I mean?

Rachel Wunderli [02:18:20] Yeah. Well, I mean, I've now learned, unfortunately, that that's not unique to Mormonism, that when you leave a Christian church as well, you are very much pushed out so that the narrative could be controlled.

John Dehlin [02:18:35] And so that's not just a Mormon thing. To love bomb you on the way in and kind of like ignore you on the way out or even push you on the way out. That's, that's maybe more of a human thing than a Mormon thing.

Rachel Wunderli [02:18:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:46] All right, so this, but this church is love bombing you in.

Rachel Wunderli [02:18:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] And the doctrine felt more affirming and supportive and simple. Yeah, it felt more appealing.

Rachel Wunderli [02:18:58] Right. It felt more simple. I mean, even down to things like sacrament versus we call it communion in Christian church and the fact that, you know, sacrament gets taken from you if you sin versus I go to Christian church and communion is offered to you more if you sin or it's like. Cause it's solely for the reason.

John Dehlin [02:19:17] That's interesting.

Rachel Wunderli [02:19:18] You know, you take this in remembrance of Jesus's sacrifice. Why the crud would we ever not take it as a sinner? Because you would think you would need it more.

John Dehlin [02:19:29] Oh, isn't that interesting, Jen? Like, like, like Jesus is all about helping you get clean. Why would you take the sacrament away from People, when they're struggling, that's when they would need it most.

Rachel Wunderli [02:19:43] Exactly.

Guest [02:19:44] Right. Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:19:46] Same with temple. Like, I've heard people say that it's like, oh, you sinned, you can't go to the temple. It's like, wait a minute.

Guest [02:19:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:52] Wouldn't Heavenly Father want you having your most sacred. If. If the temple were only sacred, wouldn't he want you having the most sacred spiritual experiences?

Rachel Wunderli [02:20:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:01] When you're struggling the most.

Rachel Wunderli [02:20:03] Yeah.

Guest [02:20:05] The LDS Church, I think, uses it as a shame thing.

John Dehlin [02:20:08] Yeah.

Guest [02:20:08] To get them to do what they want.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] Gets you in line.

Guest [02:20:10] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [02:20:11] Yeah. That there were things like that that unfolded before my eyes constantly, like multiple times a day for years, where it was just a continual validation that where I was at that was, I thought, right and true and, you know, everything but at least, at bare minimum, better or more true than the Mormon Church because they were making sense of things for me that were biblical. And as a Mormon, I still claimed to believe in the Bible. You know, it's like, depends on where you grew up, I guess, in Mormonism how much you believe in the Bible. But they were making sense of the Bible. To me, that was directly contradicting where I could kind of look at things they were saying, saying and go, oh, the Mormon Church is directly contradicting what Jesus himself said according to the Bible. And that's where I was like, I'm gonna save every Mormon in Utah is what I thought. I literally got to this mindset of just my goal at that point was, okay, now that I've figured it out, I'm going to now take this and set this Jesus tone example for. For the entire valley of Salt Lake City and all my Mormon friends and family that, like, I'm gonna just lead by example because I now know truth from Jesus's own mouth, and I'm gonna use that to save them from the Mormon Church is what I thought there

Guest [02:21:38] would be like, a little bit of that in your mind, though, because you would be saving them from all the shame, all the boxes to check off, and you'd be saving them. You would. And you'd be offering. Offering them what you learned there. That is just the grace of Christ that they need.

Rachel Wunderli [02:21:53] Yes. I think so many. And this is why I had such a hard time when I started my TikTok at first, because I was like, well, Evangelical Christianity saved my life from Mormonism. So I did not want to be somebody who was going to prevent a. An ex Mormon who had just left Mormonism who needs something from going to a Christian church. But now after all the things I've experienced, I like can't, I can't get behind that anymore. But for me it was like it was life saving, you know.

Mormon vs. Evangelical Beliefs Compared

John Dehlin [02:22:24] So what did, let's just go through some of the main tenants and how they shifted from the Mormon version to the, to the non denominational Christian version. So how did your view of God change?

Rachel Wunderli [02:22:38] Well, the Trinity is totally different. So God, the Father, Holy Spirit, all in one in Christian church where Mormonism, you know, change? No, I, that change. Honestly I could never fully get my brain to completely get behind it because it didn't make that a lot of sense. But I would just kind of pray to, I started praying to Jesus instead of like Heavenly Father, I would pray to Jesus specifically, who I then was taught, you know, was just God in the flesh. And so Jesus God, it kind of depended on what mood I was in. If I needed an older brother figure, I'd pray to, to Jesus in that moment. If I needed a father figure, I'd pray to God in that moment. And then if I was going into a situation where I knew I needed the strength of the Lord, I'd operate in and through the Holy Spirit is how he we would phrase it. So my belief of God, my relationship with God didn't change too much because I always had a pretty prayerful life. But yeah, the Trinity was pretty weird for me to wrap my head around at first. But I, it got behind it. It wasn't like a whole hold up for me. I was just kind of like, well I don't think we'll ever fully know that or be able to understand it because Christians themselves can't even fully understand the, the Trinity or like explain it to its fullest. They always have somewhere where they stop. So I'm like, okay. I just was okay with not knowing fully. So God was the same.

John Dehlin [02:24:01] What about the role of Jesus, the atonement, that sort of thing?

Rachel Wunderli [02:24:04] The atonement was everything because all of a sudden this atonement that I thought I had to work so hard to earn basically was now just given to me and my appreciation and my gratitude towards Jesus Christ was like out of this world. It's all I could talk about. I honestly asking any of my friends who have been around me for the last five years, I'm the Jesus freak friend because it's all I could talk about. I was just like, how can, how are we not all operating with Jesus, just this abundance of gratitude at all times that he would do this for us and like the Celebration of Good Friday. Not just Easter, but Good Friday and Palm Sunday and all the, all the holidays that surround Easter. I was like, why aren't Mormons who claim to have the truest truth of all truths celebrating these things? Like why aren't we honoring the resurrection or like the, and even the gruesome sides of that, like why aren't we really trying to understand what Jesus, Jesus went through claiming to be the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Like why aren't we really understanding that? And so I felt like Christians really held this deep appreciation and gratitude for just what Jesus did because now they can live in sin and it's totally fine. And because we are free, we're free by the grace that Jesus gave us when he died. So I just felt I, as far as Jesus is like, I do remember when I was Mormon looking forward to Easter and Christmas specifically because we talked about Jesus more than we did on other days where it was like Mormon stories specifically. But at, in Christian church I was just like, wow, every single Sunday is like Easter. Every single Sunday we're talking about Jesus. So my gratitude and appreciation for Jesus and my relationship with Jesus in my life or how often I take talked about him or used him as an example was just like everywhere now. It wasn't just popping up occasionally, it was just saturated and who I was as a person.

John Dehlin [02:26:07] So then what about sin? Like what about drinking? What, what about become drinking too much? What about sex with, you know, premarital sex? Like if you're. Oh by the way, I don't know if you know this, but Bednar, one of the Mormon apostles just last week, week gave a press conference that we reviewed part of it last week and we're going to finish it this week with the Q A. But he made the point to stress that the Mormon Church believes you're not saved by works, but you're saved by grace. That we're not a works based church. But what I'm hearing you say is that's not the Mormonism you absorbed growing up.

Rachel Wunderli [02:26:45] Yeah, no, not really. I mean I, especially when it came down to like the levels of heaven, I thought about that all the time. I'm like, well here I am down, definitely a telestial soul and all my family is going to be celestial. And that sucked for me to think about because I'm just like, I'm going to be so separated. But like in, in this version of it, it's like, well if they just believe, then they'll be in heaven. Heaven's like One big party for. For everybody, basically.

Guest [02:27:14] Yeah. That is interesting. I didn't really think about that. That the actual LDS US Heaven is con.

John Dehlin [02:27:24] Exclusion.

Guest [02:27:25] Yeah, it's by works where you go for sure. So how. Him saying that is totally.

John Dehlin [02:27:32] Oh, it's ridiculous.

Rachel Wunderli [02:27:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:33] Well, just because we're all, you know, we tried to talk about this or we will like it's all about, did you get the Mormon baptism? Did you get the Mormon confirmation? Did you get the Mormon endowment? Did you get the Mormon Temple wedding? Did you go on a mission? Did you check all the boxes? Were you worthy? That's all it is, is conditions. That's what the check boxes are. They're meeting the conditions. So to say we're not a workspace church is kind of ridiculous.

Rachel Wunderli [02:27:56] It's ridiculous. If we actually believed that we were not that Mormonism wasn't a workspace based church, then we wouldn't have stipulations for who can operate in certain roles or who can attend certain ceremonies.

John Dehlin [02:28:12] The temple.

Rachel Wunderli [02:28:13] Yeah, like. Right. Like you can't.

Guest [02:28:16] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [02:28:16] It's just. It's outrageous. It's okay.

John Dehlin [02:28:19] So then what is sin? Like? I can't imagine it being okay to just sleep with whoever or to get, you know, blackout drunk all the time. So what was sin and why did you even. Does that mean you just had no standards, no morality, or did it work differently somehow?

Rachel Wunderli [02:28:37] Sin was definitely still a topic all the time. Like they're still not for premarital sex. Some, some people even go to a further degree that I saw most Mormons go and like not kiss till the altar because they're just like trying to be super pure and purity. Culture is very heavy in this.

John Dehlin [02:28:54] But if you're saved, why does it matter, right, how pure you are?

Rachel Wunderli [02:28:58] That's what I didn't realize in the first two years. Like the first two years I was just eating up all this stuff as like, even if it didn't make sense, I was just like, this is a. This is a beautiful thing. This feels like a good thing. I feel really good. I didn't look into how the fact that it actually didn't make sense at the end of the day because yeah, so my pastors all drank alcohol and stuff. Drunkenness is when we would go about the sin. They'd bring up a specific scripture about fruits of the spirit and we would talk about drunkenness being the issue, but drinking is not the issue. And so they'd get away with certain things like that really at the end of the day, depending on what denomination of Christianity you're in. It's kind of all dependent on what body Bible school that pastor went, went to and how they interpret that scripture. And then they can go off of that because I have Christian friends who are women who don't wear makeup because of something that their pastor interpreted in the, in scripture. So I was very much under a very specific interpretation of the Bible and that was very much like hillsong mega church type interpretation of it. So I was only going off of my pastor's interpretation of, of the Bible, which for him was drinking is okay, being drunk is not okay, being intimate with your partner is okay. But like if, let's wait till marriage and sex is definitely not okay. Before, before marriage.

John Dehlin [02:30:25] So how did that change your ability to obey those rules or did it?

Rachel Wunderli [02:30:30] Well for the first two years I was able to kind of just sit underneath leadership and I was very one foot, one, one, one foot in, one foot out in regards to certain things. But I was open with my pastors about that. Like I'd go out to the bars Saturday night, come to church Sunday morning, 7am to lead worship and then I would like tell them like, hey, I like totally drank last night. And then they would just. The response was very grace filled and it was very like okay, well thanks for telling us. You didn't need to. They would pull Mormon stuff and use it against me. Like, you don't need to tell us like we're not your bishop. There's no, there's not a person, a human being that is between you and God. It's just between you and God. So thanks for telling us but you don't need to type thing. Like I remember 2018, I was like rekindling a relationship with a friend and we had crossed a line physically and I immediately told my pastor about it and he was like, thank you again. But let me remind you, you don't need to tell me any of this stuff. Like this is between you and God. And it was a two year process of that before. I really like after the first two years, fully committed and like did get rid of any and all like bad things in my life. But it was like I just really appreciated the grace filled walk that I received in that first two years of basically them being like, we know that you dealt with this and we know that you're still dealing with these things and, and still we're going to put you up on this stage and let you lead and we're not going to take things from you because of that. And you can still take communion and I was, it was just like, it seemed like I was only being loved in those first two years.

John Dehlin [02:32:16] And what kept you from falling into that kind of sorority life, blackout drunk, you know, just living a life of. That led to what it led before. I mean, apparently it was working for you. What, what made it, what made it work for you, do you think?

Rachel Wunderli [02:32:34] I just felt fulfillment to the highest degree. I was, I was able to express my passion of music in a, in a public forum. That was really cool. And we were in. The music was so like touching. And so I had that. My, my hobbies were fulf. Fulfilled. My community was fulfilled again. And this time it was like deep rooted. It wasn't like Mormon, my Mormon community where I'd show up and I'd be bored the whole time and then I would kind of just be like, like they would be our family friends. It was like, no, these people were really integrated into every aspect of my life. Like everybody knew everything. And I had like, they became my family. I kind of wasn't super close with my family in the beginning of this whole process, mainly because they didn't understand it. But like this church and these leaders became my family. So I was fulfilled in community, I was fulfilled in family. I did not have to worry about things. I was worried about like being single forever. I didn't have to worry about that because I'm like, God will provide. I was just constantly around this God will provide mentality. And then I'm also sitting there under this leadership who's telling me that they see this like this like abnormal existential calling on my life, like me specifically. And they were going to help me manifest that. So they were already kind of gearing me up for being a super volunteer or super leader to where I just felt like even my career now was a lot starting to align with my faith. Faith of wanting to be a pastor or at least wanting to be in ministry to a certain extent. So everything that I worry about as like a Western American of like what's important and what do you need to survive? I was being provided all of those things. So my suicidal ideation was out the door. And the only reason why alcohol was ever an issue because I still drink now and it's never an issue because it's just like I never get. I don't like being drunk at all because I'm not self medicating anymore. Like I'm just using it for what it's there for. And before I was only using it because I was depressed and I was trying to Drown out and numb out my pain. So I didn't need to do that anymore. And I equated all of that to this new relationship with Jesus and then equated that to this specific church that I was under the leadership in.

John Dehlin [02:35:01] Yeah. And you know, we talked about that big vacuum that, you know, gets created when you leave, like a high demand religion. They provided you, they filled the vacuum.

Rachel Wunderli [02:35:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:12] They provided you with a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose and identity, a sense of spirituality, a moral framework, a community resolution in the afterlife, moral support. Like, they just, it's, it's. You just, you joined in a system that is designed to kind of help people thrive, honestly.

Rachel Wunderli [02:35:31] Yeah, yeah. And I was so all in and so like, easily susceptible to following like the leadership of somebody else. And they saw that and they really. I, I do believe that they loved me, but they definitely took advantage of, of the fact that I was willing to kind of dedicate my whole life to it. They were like, oh, we see this person who's literally not going to say no to anything that we want her to do. And so I, I just, it was my whole world.

John Dehlin [02:36:03] You know, I've thought a lot about that. Like, you watch these cult documentaries of these people that'll just do anything for the cult leader or for the, for the church or whatever. Like, I mean, I, I was, I was in that to some degree. I was in that in high school for sure. And on my mission, things happened on my mission that made it so I was always kind of like a little bit skeptical and kind of took it on my own terms. But like, since getting kicked out of Mormon, like, I can't imagine giving my submitting to anything ever again like that. So it, it, so I give myself slack for having been raised in it where I, okay, I get my devotion on my mission, etc. But like imagining giving, wanting to give everything to anything, yeah, kind of blows my mind. So I'm wondering like, how that was to be willing to give, give so much, to believe in something so much that you almost don't care what they ask you to do. You're. You're down.

Rachel Wunderli [02:37:03] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just fully believed because they had reiterated over and over and over again that they saw my pain and saw how Mormonism may have affected me negatively. And they were like, speaking to that and being open about it. I was like, wow, these people really, really just want to protect me. Why would they want to do that? Unless this was like, unless what we were doing was, was good or, or true. I Just, I just was, I felt so safe underneath this group of people and so protected that they really, it's kind of like as a kid I had no reason to not believe my dad. He was just my protector and my provider and all these things. And it jumped into that exact same thing. And I, the reason why. So I'm sitting where you're sitting in regards to Mormonism and how you'd never be able to go anywhere again. That's where I'm at now. We'll get there and we'll get there. That's where I'm at now. But at the, at the time it was like I had been raised my whole life to think that the Mormon Church was the only truth. So then to come out and find this new reality of people who I felt like were actually following the, the teachings of Jesus better than Mormons. I was like, well, if that was a lie, what else is a lie? Like what else have I been lied to about? So at this point, as I'm trying to find what literal truth, I'm really just trying to find like a comfortable space to land. And that's what they were providing was just this comfortable space to land. And like they were seemingly really open. They weren't giving me language that the Mormon Church was giving me, like this is the only way that came in later. It creeped in later. But at the time that I needed their help and their support for survival, they were really just giving me kind of the basics, the feel, the feel good basics that were totally contradicting with what Mormonism would teach. So then I going, this Mormon Church that has hurt me, they are siding with me on the fact that this is a bad thing, that the Mormon Church is a bad thing. I just felt like so protected. There was nothing that there was no way I was gonna leave. Like leave that.

John Dehlin [02:39:21] Yeah. So when you study these high demand religions or systems, you know, there's always that love bombing initial experience and there's always like somehow a difference between the theology that you're taught at the beginning and it's usually very simple. It's this whole milk before meat kind of thing thing. And there's usually some difference between that and what you end up learning later.

Rachel Wunderli [02:39:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:48] Once you're really in it.

Rachel Wunderli [02:39:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:50] And it sounds like there was some of that.

Rachel Wunderli [02:39:52] Totally.

John Dehlin [02:39:52] Okay.

Rachel Wunderli [02:39:53] The parallels were. Yeah, yeah, the same.

John Dehlin [02:39:56] Really quickly I want to like, I think of evangelical Christianity and non denominational Christianity. First of all, is there a difference between those two?

Rachel Wunderli [02:40:06] I don't think so. So I, I, Evangelical Is like the belief of the, the Bible to. And all. Every sect of Christianity believes in the Bible. Non denominational is, is the, seems like more of the, the chiller version of evangelical.

John Dehlin [02:40:23] Does it just mean not Baptist and not like it's like you don't have

Rachel Wunderli [02:40:27] to be baptized into a. It feels less religious to be a part of, of it. Less church? Yeah, less, less churchy. Like you still get church, but non denominational kind of seems like they can just ebb and flow with whatever they want. But it's all with under the evangelical umbrella.

John Dehlin [02:40:45] Okay, so it is still even you would have identified as an evangelical. Okay. And were you, were you baptized into it?

Rachel Wunderli [02:40:54] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:55] I, how long did it take?

Rachel Wunderli [02:40:58] It took. Well, just a couple months into going to that church. I kind of was like, I, I want to do this. I want to. Because they describe baptism. So this was another difference. They're telling me, oh, baptism for Mormon Church, that's like your initiation into being a member of the Mormon Church with, with, with that process. But in Christianity, baptism is just an outward expression for an inward change of heart, period. That's it. And I was like, like, well I have had an inward change of heart, so why wouldn't I want to outwardly express that? So I then okay, really?

John Dehlin [02:41:32] So was that. Because what I. Growing up with Baptist friends, there was this idea of being saved, which meant at some point, I think sitting in a evangelical church service, being overcome with the Holy Spirit and I think doing what's called an altar call, where you get up and like what?

Rachel Wunderli [02:41:51] Yeah, so that's different. So you've got. Baptism is kind of like something you could just do on your own at any point doesn't. It's just for you basically saying yes to Jesus is something that happens every single Sunday. At the end of the sermon, the pastor will do the altar call prayer where he'll basically say, if you're willing to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior into your life, pray this prayer after me. You repeat this prayer. It's different wherever you go. It's different. Different even to each week, from week to week, depending on how he wants to phrase it.

John Dehlin [02:42:20] What's, what's the general.

Rachel Wunderli [02:42:22] The general premise is like, is like God, I'm just giving my life to you, and no matter what happens, I'm just saying that I'm doing it your way now and your way is the highest way. And, and from this point forward, I am saying that you are the Lord of lords of my life and Jesus name we pray Amen and Then he'll go, anybody who has prayed that prayer for the first time, nobody's looking around, everybody's eyes are closed. Just, just raise your hand real quick so that we can see you, so that we can pray for you, so that we can know that you're here. It's a numbers thing, but they're like, pray this prayer, raise your hand. Well, I mean, I could tell you just my family alone has given them at least 15 salvations. Cuz you hear the word, you're praying this prayer for the first time, raise your hand. People just hear, oh, first time, yeah, okay, I'm visiting, it's my first time. They'll raise their hand, hand. We then in the back, behind the scenes, count that as a salvation. So saying yes to Jesus and being saved, that happens during this altar call call that you're given the opportunity to do every single week. And that's just a, that's not anything official, it's not anything that goes on paper. There's no initiation of sorts. It's just like, oh, I said yes to Jesus today. And everybody gives you a hug and then you meet up with somebody in the lobby lobby who gives you a Bible and it's kind of just. And they want to get your information to, to keep tabs on you, to make sure you come back and stuff. But like it's not, it's very different from baptism, but that's.

Being Saved and Embracing a New Faith

John Dehlin [02:43:47] Is that called being saved?

Rachel Wunderli [02:43:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:43:49] Is that how you would.

Rachel Wunderli [02:43:50] If you say yes to Jesus and you like raise your hand during that prayer, you have this moment where you're like, yes, I'm giving my life to Jesus. That is how Christians define being saved. And I never believed that part of theology to the fullest most extent. Like, I would look at people who are even Mormon, like my grandmother, who's an amazing woman and never, ever, even in my depths of Christianity did I believe that she was going to hell. Because she didn't believe in Christian Jesus, she believed in Mormon Jesus. But there are a ton of people at my church who would say that Mormons at large are going to hell.

John Dehlin [02:44:28] Okay, so, so do you remember that moment you were, so you didn't think about yourself as having that moment of being saved, is that what you're saying?

Rachel Wunderli [02:44:40] Mine was pretty gradual. I think being saved happened over the course of, like being saved according to Christians, happened over the course of two months of me just asking questions and being immersed in the worship team and, and a smaller group of women where we'd get together and talk about the sermon Every week, week, kind of like Young Women's or Relief Society, but like midweek. And I remember just getting to a point where I was just like, yeah, I. I mean, I believe all of these things, so I guess at this point I'm saved. But it wasn't like one moment that happened for my sister who followed me to this church six months later. She did have a moment at a team night when it was like a very emotional worship set. And she just. That to her, she will claim, is like her moment where she got saved. But. But I didn't have that moment. It was. It was just gradual. And then I decided I wanted to get baptized and talk to my pastors about it. And I said, look, I don't even know if I believe in all of the Bible right now, but I do believe in Jesus and I want to follow Jesus's example. So. And I have had an inward change of heart, so I do want to outwardly express that. And I'm using all their language and. And that's when my pastor goes, and I'll never forget this. I made a TikTok about it. I was like. He was like, you don't have to worry about. About studying the Bible like right now and knowing every single thing right now before you get baptized, because that will come. You're not going to wake up one day and find out that that's not true like you did with the Mormon Church. So just. So get baptized. That's great. I think that's a great idea. They're super supportive about it. And I got baptized in February of 2018.

John Dehlin [02:46:15] What was that like? Was it by immersion?

Rachel Wunderli [02:46:17] It was by immersion in the lobby of the church in a big tub. And a bunch of people were around in the lobby. And you, like. It's just really quick, you know, Same. Pretty much the same prayer. I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit.

John Dehlin [02:46:31] Are you wearing white dunk?

Rachel Wunderli [02:46:32] No. You could wear whatever. I was wearing a T shirt that said I've decided or I'm saved or something like that. It was like a very Christian T shirt with like soccer shorts and they dunk and then the whole lobby claps, like erupts and in applause.

John Dehlin [02:46:47] How did it feel?

Rachel Wunderli [02:46:49] I mean, it felt great. I felt. I felt like. Like this was just me making the first decision for myself in regards to something spiritual. I had the placebo effect to the max going on, and I just felt like this was the most incredible decision of my life. And I was just proud of myself in that moment. Like, a lot of my family members weren't there, and I was kind of like, okay, I'm still. I'm just doing this. Like, I'm doing this. And eventually that they'll come around. And. And it wasn't because they hated the idea. They just were kind of like they weren't going to make it a priority. But, yeah, I just felt. I felt so loved and supported by my team of leaders there. And it was a really great day. I remember being a really great day.

John Dehlin [02:47:36] Did you think of yourself as no longer being Mormon, or were you evangelical Christian and Mormon?

Rachel Wunderli [02:47:42] No, I had, in preparation for being baptized at the Christian church, removed my record words from the Mormon church just out of. To be symbolic. Like, I was like, all right, that's done. I'm done with that. I do not believe in Mormonism anymore. At this point, I had debunked enough theology to be like, okay, yeah, I'm. I do not believe that that church at large is true. I'm gonna step into this. And it was like a full restart.

John Dehlin [02:48:10] Okay. And. So, shoot. I was gonna ask a. Oh, did. What. Was your family alarmed? Were they concerned? Did you. Did they.

Rachel Wunderli [02:48:28] You know, they'll, like, tell me things now that they would have never admitted back then, but back then, I just remember my mom was kind of, like, upset at the fact that I was being so vocal about it, because I think it was her was asking questions. Yeah, the ward was starting to ask some questions. They would see me post about, you know, singing about Jesus, and all my captions on Instagram for years was about Jesus, and. And I think she was just really confused and kind of felt like I was like, this was me being rebellious again, because I had been rebellious my whole life. So I think a lot of my family almost viewed my baptism as a rebellion of, like, me saying, screw you for raising me Mormon. I'm going to. Gonna become a totally different religion. That. And now they. They don't think that at all. But at the time, I just remember, like, being supported to a certain degree. My dad loved going to the church. He loved watching me and my sister sing. And that's. That's where it was at for him. Like, he loved the fact that there was coffee in the lobby, and he was just like, all right, yeah, this is fun church. This is rock and roll church is what he called it. And he just liked seeing his daughters up there performing. It wasn't a spiritual thing for him. I was praying every Sunday that he would, like, have it be a spiritual encounter of Some sorts. But. But for him, he was just supportive of the. The hobby that we were living out. And my mom was kind of, like, distant and didn't really want to talk about it. And then the rest of my extended family was like. Was like, supportive when it was brought up. But it wasn't like, let's go out of our way to be supportive. But it wasn't let's go out of our way to be against it, you know, either.

John Dehlin [02:50:06] You must have felt really amazing having kind of hit rock bottom in college and then, you know, got divorced in a Mormon. Like, those are a couple really low points.

Rachel Wunderli [02:50:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:19] And now all of a sudden, you. You found something that you chose that feels right to you. You've got this. You're enveloped in this community and you're thriving. That must have felt amazing. Amazing.

Rachel Wunderli [02:50:32] Yeah. It felt so good. I mean, really, every single box of my life that I wanted to check off, that I cared about was being fulfilled in that moment. And I do remember still struggling with depression, spurts. Spurts of suicidal ideation throughout the first two years that I was at that church. And it just wasn't the same. It was. It was cared for differently. It was cared for in a very, like, like, proactive way. So I thought where, like, I'd express a concern that I had with my own, like, depression, and it would be like, immediately I'd get 30 people calling me, can I pray for you?

Guest [02:51:11] Can I pray over you?

Rachel Wunderli [02:51:12] Like, like, can I. Can I bring you something? Can I do this? Can I? Whatever. And I was just like, man, okay, I can. In the future, if I hit rock bottom again, I'll be cared for and protected in that, versus the last two moments of rock bottom that I've hit. College and the divorce, I didn't feel like I got a rally of support around that. I felt like I healed from those things on my own. And now I'm looking at this church in this new life going, nothing could happen. That would be. That would, like, take me away from the support that I'm going to get here. And that was like, the most comforting thing for me.

Guest [02:51:52] Hmm.

John Dehlin [02:51:52] That's amazing.

Rachel Wunderli [02:51:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:54] Really quickly, this is just a geek question. Did you view your Mormon family as saved or is not saved?

Rachel Wunderli [02:52:01] I viewed them as totally saved because my optimistic self, I never believed in hell as this hellfire and brimstone where people are going to be tortured for their whole life. I kind of viewed hell as like a mindset, so. And that was just personal to me. But I just. I couldn't My dad almost died, died in 2019, the beginning of 2019. And in that moment, I just remember kind of being faced with that question for the first time. I had been a Christian for a couple years at this point, and that was the first time where I'm going, oh, a lot of people who lead me do believe that if he died in this moment, he would go to hell. And I just don't see that's not how the God that I've been operating with works in my mind. So I just don't see. My dad's like a really great person and has always been, been like kind of the hero in my life. And if he dies right now, I, he, I know he's not going to hell, is basically what I would think. So I never got like this intense fear of hell that my ex evangelical friends talk about when they talk about their childhood. I never had that experience. So I did think they were saved my family.

John Dehlin [02:53:07] So Mormons were good in your mind?

Rachel Wunderli [02:53:10] Mormons were good in my mind. As far as eternal damnation goes, Mormons were good in my mind. The reason I wanted to save them had nothing to do with eternal salvation and had everything to do with the fact that I felt like I could save the life that they have to still live here on earth. I could make that better. I could provide freedom for them while they're living here. But it had nothing. My desire to take all the Mormons out of Mormon church and bring them and make them all Christians had nothing to do with the fact that I was worried for their salvation. I like always kind of thought, no, they're good, like they'll be fine. But I want to save. I want to make their life that they have now so much more free.

John Dehlin [02:53:50] Yeah. Less guilt and shame and all this amazing spirituality. Not this boring.

Rachel Wunderli [02:53:55] Right.

John Dehlin [02:53:56] Dead religion that's not really focused on Christ.

Rachel Wunderli [02:53:59] Right, right. Like even the, even the subject of repentance, like my, my pastor would whip out scriptures and go, here's what repentance is. So we, we get loud and passionate at church because that's not what. Reverend. Oh, sorry. Not repentance. Reverence. Reverence. That's not what like reverence is about. And so I grew up thinking my arms have to be folded and my head has to be down in order for me to be reverent before the eyes of God. And here I am able to like cry and sing at the top of my lungs and cheer for Jesus and I'm going, this makes way more sense. Like if somebody really died for you and we was willing to give it all for your salvation and freedom. Why wouldn't we cheer loudly? Why wouldn't we be passionate and loud about it? Why? And that all made sense to me. So this whole new life that I was experiencing so much freedom and liberation from since leaving Mormonism, I wanted every Mormon to experience that.

John Dehlin [02:54:54] Yeah. Since you mentioned the singing, I'm gonna put you on the spot here. If. If you're comfortable, like I've seen you sing, and I think you're an amazing singer. Singer. Would you be comfortable singing? Just pick some random Christian song that you would have really loved and just sing a little bit for our audience just to give them a sense of when I say you were a singer and when you say you sing so they can get a sense of what is meant by that. All right, get to get the volumes ready. We may need to tweak the soundboard, depending on the volume.

Rachel Wunderli [02:55:25] I'm, like, now trying to remember if I have. Okay, me, me, me. We sang this song. This is just the first one that came to my mind. Because when we start. We started the song at a big parking lot worship night that we had during COVID In the beginning, it just goes. It just goes. The atmosphere is changing now. For the spirit of the Lord is here. The evidence is all around for the spirit of the Lord is here. And then it kind of goes into this place, and you feel the build. This is where worship really meant a lot to me. You feel this build, and it just goes. Overflow in this place. Fill our hearts with your love, your love, surroundings, us. Spirit of God fall fresh on us. We need your presence. And then, you know, we just go off. And it's just. That was the angelic version, but when I go full blown, Tasha Cobbs. And only Christians will know that reference. But, yeah, it. There were some powerful moments that took place in worship.

John Dehlin [02:56:55] Do you feel that, Jen?

Guest [02:56:56] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [02:56:56] Did you feel the spirit? I do.

Guest [02:56:59] I love music, though. I can't sing worth anything but listening. Like, I still can't even give up all my LDs.

John Dehlin [02:57:09] Yeah, me either.

Guest [02:57:10] Songs.

John Dehlin [02:57:10] Yeah, me either.

Guest [02:57:11] Yeah, I play them. I love theater, so I in musicals, love it so much. So they all kind of still speak to my soul.

Rachel Wunderli [02:57:23] Yeah.

Guest [02:57:23] Myself, you know, and what's inside me, I still love them. Yeah. So I keep what I like. If it's too much, I'll let it go.

Rachel Wunderli [02:57:33] But yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:35] How about her voice, though?

Rachel Wunderli [02:57:36] But gorgeous.

Guest [02:57:37] Like, I can listen to her all day. That's what I'm saying.

Rachel Wunderli [02:57:41] Oh, my. Well, this is why we need, you know, we need like, yeah, we need secular music to get with it in regards to how we build songs, because there's something really powerful, powerful about, about, about those songs. I mean, going from Mormon hymns to. One of the last songs we ever sang on stage before I left was this song called I thank God. And it's, it's so. It's one of the fun ones because we're a clapping church and the bridge is literally like, hell lost another one. I am free. Yeah, I am free. And it's talking about like, hell lost another one because the person in the front just got saved. The whole thing's hilarious to me now, but this music, like, really fires you up. Like you are just like.

John Dehlin [02:58:23] Yes.

Rachel Wunderli [02:58:23] We would be bouncing back and forth high fiving mid song with the other leaders on the, on the stage. Me and my sister had just the, this, this connection with worship together where we could just read each other's minds and just go for it and it. And have these builds that were just awesome and drum breaks and music. Music saved my life in every season of life. And hymns, honestly, were efy. Music saved my life. And then worship music saved my life. And then after that, it was just Coldplay.

John Dehlin [02:58:58] That works.

Rachel Wunderli [02:58:58] The closest thing I found to the build that I am so bad at saving my soul. Coldplay, Coldplay, Save my soul. Thanks, Chris Martin.

John Dehlin [02:59:08] Yeah, that's funny because Leah Young and Cody Young took their kids to Coldplay yesterday in Chicago. So this morning I was watching Leah Young's replay of them all jamming out at the cold, and it looked. It was like this huge stadium just full of people rocking out.

Rachel Wunderli [02:59:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:26] And also Mark Oslin talked about his kind of spiritual experience in England watching Coldplay.

Guest [02:59:31] Oh, yeah, that's right.

Rachel Wunderli [02:59:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:33] That's not the first time Coldplay's been

Rachel Wunderli [02:59:34] mentioned on Mormon Stirrups. They're like, about his spirit. I'm telling you something about him.

John Dehlin [02:59:42] Well, that was beautiful. Thank you for singing a little bit.

Rachel Wunderli [02:59:44] Yeah, I mean, anytime, you know, when I'm prepared. I'll come with a. I'll come with my guitar.

Guest [02:59:49] Let us know when you have stuff that comes. Oh, yeah, I'm all over that.

Rachel Wunderli [02:59:54] I'm writing music right now. I'm honestly, what I'm trying to do is, Is create exactly that. I'm trying to create music where people who have left religion, who. That was their, their spiritual language to God, where they can still feel those feels in a way that's not lyrically triggering to them. That's what I hope to Create a full album of.

John Dehlin [03:00:14] Yeah, I'll just say, you know, when I got kicked out of the church, we started this thing called Oasis, which was like a secular Sunday experience. And I've been surprised over the years. And then we did thrive, too, which was another attempt at kind of secular community. And one of the most heartbreaking things for me was to see how many Mormons are traumatized by music. So just the act. Even if you're singing like Imagine by John Lennon. Right. Just the act of being in a large group with other people singing can be traumatic and triggering. It's like they killed, they hurt music. They ruined music. Mormonism ruined music for a whole bunch of people, not everyone. Like, I can still sing a primary. I can still sing popcorn popping or, you know, I like to look for rainbows, you know, in. In a crowd and feel great. But there's people that want to get up and leave and feel traumatized by that. And it makes me super sad.

Rachel Wunderli [03:01:12] It makes me so. Well, because the. The level of. Of goodness that they felt in those moments was probably surrounded by those bigger musical moments. And I remember these. These really touching moments happening at, like, efy. Why? As a kid. And I equated that to a spiritual experience. And the same thing happened in worship. And it's just like, I have had and still have a really hard time in certain settings of music because I'm just like. I get PTSD a little bit.

John Dehlin [03:01:43] Well, it's because that's part of how. I mean, I. I don't want to make it sound like every church is trying to manipulate you through music. I think it's just their way of worshiping.

Rachel Wunderli [03:01:54] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:01:55] But because that's a tool. Well, it makes you feel good because it makes you feel good, but also because that's how you kind of get pulled into the belief system and to the indoctrination and then to the commitment to the organization.

Rachel Wunderli [03:02:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:14] If you leave it, then it ends up feeling like a tool that was used to manipulate and coerce you.

Rachel Wunderli [03:02:20] Totally. Really?

John Dehlin [03:02:21] And that's what spoils it for people.

Rachel Wunderli [03:02:23] Yeah. And it sucks because it's like, I can always look back on that and go, it was not used in that moment as manipulation and still have the triggers that I have. And I've. I, you know, I tried to. I tried to pray about that for a long time. I've just, like, remove these triggers because I wanted to listen to worship music so badly. It was just. It was. It was my everything. It was everything that I listened to for four years straight. I don't think I listened to secular music for, like, four years straight because especially as a worship leader, my job is also to find songs that the church is going to resonate with. So I have to know my church and my congregation really well to know what's going to make them touched, which in a way is manipulative. Like me as a worship leader, what did operate in realms of manipulation, not thinking at the time that they. That's what it was. But I've got to take some accountability here. Like, we created set lists for big moments based off of what was going to make people cry at the perfect moment that we needed them to cry, to set them up for this message or something like that. And we would never phrase it like that back then, but that's totally what we were doing.

John Dehlin [03:03:31] Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [03:03:32] So it's hard. It's hard to wrestle with that.

Closing Part One and Looking Ahead

John Dehlin [03:03:35] So we're. We're hitting. I think we're hitting a natural point of where we're going to break for this part one, and. And then we're going to take a break and then do part two. But I have a couple final questions before we wrap up this part.

Rachel Wunderli [03:03:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:46] Really quickly. What was the Christian teaching around eternal families and eternal marriage? I. I know the answer, but I want you just to say it.

Rachel Wunderli [03:03:57] Well, there's no. So for my knowledge, heaven, you're not really, like, in family units anymore. So you go up and it's just kind of. Of everyone is now just brothers and sisters in Christ, and it's just like one big praise party. So there was no, like, eternal family situation. And as far as families being together forever and being saved, it's really just. If you have a family member who does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, that family member is going to hell. And that's something that I think people don't choose to wrestle with as active Christians because the thought of that is too much. But, yeah, as far as the theology goes, if you do not accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior in this life, you don't have the opportunity to do that after you die. Kind of like how Mormon church, I called it, the waiting room where missionaries come and talk to you. I don't know how that works, but there's no opportunity after you die to, like, accept Jesus at that point.

John Dehlin [03:04:57] And that's actually biblically consistent. We talked about this with Sandra Tanner. Jesus literally says in the Bible, there's no wedding, there's no marriage.

Rachel Wunderli [03:05:05] Right.

John Dehlin [03:05:06] In heaven.

Rachel Wunderli [03:05:06] Right, Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:08] So that's. And. And this has been One of the. The mind twist with Mormonism that was really interesting because Mormonism will say, hey, we're the ones that help you have eternal families.

Rachel Wunderli [03:05:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:20] But what they're actually doing is creating scarcity. Instead of creating a gift, they're creating scarcity because all the other Christians are just like, oh, we're all going to be there.

Rachel Wunderli [03:05:29] Right, right, right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:30] So it's Mormonism that's actually, in a, in a way, theologically breaking up families. Even if everybody gets the Mormon baptism through baptisms for the dead and ends up, you know, in one of the three kingdoms, the kingdoms are stratified and so they're being separated. And then is that not hell to be separated from your daughter or your dad or your brother? So it's still a form of hell. So they create, they, they sell it like it's some huge eternal family uniting thing. But really what they're doing is selling you fear and scarcity that you're not going to be with your spouse or your kids someday.

Rachel Wunderli [03:06:04] Right.

John Dehlin [03:06:04] But in a traditional Christian mindset, everyone's going to be together. Is that right?

Rachel Wunderli [03:06:10] Everyone's going to be. Unless they don't believe.

John Dehlin [03:06:12] But then you had basically just said, Jesus, God's going to make up for it somehow. So you weren't dwelling in that place of.

Rachel Wunderli [03:06:18] I wasn't dwelling in that place. But I do remember eventually, very specific conversation that I had with my two lead pastors who, who were married. Their grandmother, who was Mormon. That's just super random. They do have extended family who is Mormon. That was a weird coincidence. Their grandma, who was Mormon, passed away. And I remember being at their house, like, right after that. And one of my pastors is like, well, it's just, I mean, I'm just at peace, like, knowing where she is. And his wife goes, well, we don't really know where she is. And he's like, no, I know where she is. She was a devout. She loved Jesus. Yes, she was a devout Mormon, but she loved Jesus. And, and, and, and she just. His wife kind of was like, all right, whatever. And I thought the whole thing was weird for so many reasons. One, she's going think. Implying that she thinks that this grandma is in hell, but she's not upset about it. From what I can see, she's not visibly upset about it. So I'm like, okay, weird. And then the same, like, and then the other pastor is like, now dealing with this, this, this thing of just, oh, wait, no, it doesn't make sense that an amazing woman like my grandma would Be in hell. But his beliefs say that that's where she is. So he. I saw in that moment, wrestled with that. So I don't. That's why I say, like, even pastors, I don't think they actually really think about that to a certain degree because it's painful. Because they really believe what the Bible is saying, saying according to their interpretation. That's a lot of people to permanently bury when they die. That's. That's a lot to do with.

John Dehlin [03:07:50] And that's similar to a lot of Mormons. Don't totally think about the implications of their beliefs.

Rachel Wunderli [03:07:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:57] Or believe them super literally. Or they'll make exceptions when it's people close to them. We all. We all manage our cognitive dissonance flexibly, I guess, regardless of our religious tradition.

Rachel Wunderli [03:08:11] Yeah. There's, you know, I always said there was cafeteria Mormons and there's cafeteria Christians. You just pick and choose kind of what you want to believe that makes the most sense for the situation that you're currently dealing with in that moment.

John Dehlin [03:08:21] Yeah. And you didn't tell us what converted your sister. Like, it's okay.

Rachel Wunderli [03:08:27] Like, I did.

John Dehlin [03:08:29] Older, younger sister. Because you were the younger.

Rachel Wunderli [03:08:32] Years younger than me. She's six years younger than me. And she was kind of one of those Mormons who was never fully in it mentally. So her leaving the Mormon church wasn't like this huge traumatic experience spiritually or mentally. But she saw how. How much I was thriving now at this church. And it didn't really take long before she joined. And then she very quickly got roped into the worship team and was totally cared for in the same type of sense. So she absolutely loved it. She would consider herself way more of a ex Christian than an ex Mormon at this point. Point.

John Dehlin [03:09:06] Okay. And she sings like you do.

Rachel Wunderli [03:09:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:08] Oh, wow. I want to see those duets.

Rachel Wunderli [03:09:11] Oh, she will be on the album for sure. All my sisters are going to be. Are going to be on this album.

Guest [03:09:16] I can't wait.

John Dehlin [03:09:17] Yeah. Okay, last question. So the next episode is going to be sort of your rise in your religion in. In this church towards becoming a pastor or a worship leader leader, and then how that kind of fell apart to where you now identify as an ex Christian. So that's what. That's what next episode is going to be about. I just want to end with this question and Jen, if you have any others, but like, I think of evangelical Christianity as not having female leaders. It's still a patriarchal church system, so. But then there's this Joyce Myers woman who's Like a, a pastor, a female pastor. So, like, what, what is the possibility. Excuse me? What is the possibility for a woman in evangelical Christianity?

Rachel Wunderli [03:10:16] It totally depends on the sect of Christianity that you're in. And my church, I just so happen to luck out and fall into a very progressive female empowered church where we had women pastors and my main pastor who preached most of the time that was a man, but his wife preached a lot too. And we had female pastors, we had couples who were men and women lead campuses and, and they were going to eventually make me one. So even as a single person. So, yeah, there is a very specific scripture passage and I don't remember where it's at, but I'll find it that talks about that, the issue of women. And depending on how you were taught to interpret that in Bible school, you could land either which way.

John Dehlin [03:11:02] It's about women staying silent in the church. Right?

Rachel Wunderli [03:11:04] Yeah, it's something that Paul said.

John Dehlin [03:11:06] It's.

Rachel Wunderli [03:11:06] Yeah, it's Paul and. But they'll interpret it. They'll be like, well, if you know, the hermeneutic and the homiletic behind this certain situation, then you would know that this meant this because he was trying to protect the women from blah, blah, blah. So they, they made it whatever they wanted. But luckily for me, I was in a very highly female empowered situation where a lot of our guest speakers who would come in for conferences were women and people of color. They tried to like, bring that in as well. So.

John Dehlin [03:11:38] Yeah. All right.

Rachel Wunderli [03:11:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:39] All right. So next episode. Episode is going to be how Rachel got fast tracked into Christian leadership, but then how it all fell apart.

Rachel Wunderli [03:11:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:11:48] Is that all right?

Rachel Wunderli [03:11:49] Yes, yes. That's.

John Dehlin [03:11:51] That's part two.

Rachel Wunderli [03:11:52] That's part two.

John Dehlin [03:11:53] All right. Well, this has been wonderful. Jen, any, any final questions for Rachel or.

Guest [03:11:57] No, I think I'm good. I'm excited to hear what's happening next.

John Dehlin [03:12:03] Well, Rachel, thank you so much for sharing this part of your story. It's, it's, it's not the traditional Mormon story, and that's one of the reasons I love it. And your willingness to be honest and open and vulnerable about your story. I know there's going to be a lot of people, even my Christian friends, like Randy or Steve or Alison or others or Sandra. I know they're going to really value hearing your experience converting to Christianity or, or evangelical Christianity. So thank you for sharing. Sharing.

Rachel Wunderli [03:12:34] Absolutely. It's been a blast. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [03:12:37] Yeah. And, and Randy and Steve and Allison and Sandra. You don't have to watch the next part. Okay?

Rachel Wunderli [03:12:43] I promise. I still love all of you guys. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:12:48] All right. Thanks, Rachel. Thanks, Jen. It's great to have you, as always.

Guest [03:12:51] Yeah, it was fun. Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [03:12:53] Thanks, Jen. Yeah. I'll bring my guitar next time. Yes, please do. I can't wait. I can't open with a. We'll have an opening prayer and an opening song.

Guest [03:13:01] Okay, I'm up for it. Whatever you want to do.

John Dehlin [03:13:06] All right, everyone, don't go away. Come right back. If you happen to catch the live stream, it'll be tomorrow. But for everyone else, just jump right into part two. On YouTube, on the podcast, Facebook, wherever you are. You won't want to miss how Rachel Wonderly goes from passion passionate evangelical Christian to ex Christian and where she has landed. Thanks for all the support. Thanks for making Mormon stories possible. And we'll see you guys all really soon for part two. Thanks, everybody.

Part Two: Rising Into Church Leadership

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1612

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. We are here in part two of what I think is a fascinating and inspiring interview with Rachel Wonderly.

Guest 2 [00:00:14] Hey, Rachel.

Rachel Wunderli [00:00:15] Hey, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Welcome back.

Rachel Wunderli [00:00:17] Glad to be back.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] And of course, Jen, we're happy to have you with us as well. Thanks for writing Shotgun.

Guest 2 [00:00:24] Of course.

Rachel Wunderli [00:00:24] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:00:25] Hi, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] If you are just joining us now and you didn't join us for part one, pause and go back and watch part one. We just spent a good three hours with Rachel Wonderly. She talked to us about her Mormon upbringing, being raised back east, coming to Utah in high school, being tempted by her Mormon peers to kind of stray a little bit from orthodox Mormonism and how that led her to kind of a dark place in college, even where she was contemplating death by suicide. And then we talked about her, you know, re engagement with, with faithful Mormonism to marry her BYU sweetheart that she found only to have that marriage end in divorce, but then saved at the last minute by evangelical Christianity. And we talked about her conversion to evangelical Christianity in part one of the interview. And it's, it's really worth watching. It's really interesting. It's moving. And you even sang a little bit for us in part one.

Rachel Wunderli [00:01:25] We did. It was a sing along. So go back and sing with it.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Yeah, yeah. So that's part one. And so now we're going to be doing part two, which is kind of your. You were kind of be. I don't want to say groom. Sometimes grooming can be a real pernicious kind of word. But you were kind of, you know, now we're going to be talking about how you were sort of groomed by my more gentle use of the term groomed to become a leader in your Christian church here in Utah and how you rose up, but then how that dream also kind of fell apart. That's going to be the part two of your story. Then we're going to be talking about where you are now identifying, let's just say, as an ex Christian. So it's kind of like the rise and fall of your Christian Rachel Wonderly's Christian experience.

Rachel Wunderli [00:02:19] Yes. Can you guys see that I'm nervous through this camera? Am I sweating?

John Dehlin [00:02:24] Underarm check.

Rachel Wunderli [00:02:25] Okay, here we go. Here we go. All right.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] So where we left off, you had been baptized into a Utah based, Salt Lake county based Christian church. You had been saved, you had got baptized and you were starting to be involved in worship. And tell us what it means to be a worship leader for Those of us who. Who don't even know what that means.

Rachel Wunderli [00:02:49] Yeah. So on a practical level, the worship leader is the one who leads the music for the service that takes place before the sermon. So you go there, and usually you're opened with worship music. Fast song, slow song into the sermon. And then some people will wrap it up with worship as well, wrap up their service. But the worship leader is in charge of navigating the crowd, the congregation, and the band. And we're kind of in charge of ebbing. Ebbing and flowing with our pastor. And from a spiritual standpoint, the worship leader for the ex mos, who might not understand this very well, our job is what?

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Or the Mormons.

Rachel Wunderli [00:03:32] Or the Mormons. Yeah. Who? Our job as a worship leader is to usher in the Holy Spirit into that. Into the room and to basically learn how to navigate. Flowing with the Holy Spirit and with our pastor to create a spiritual experience for everybody who attends. So, yeah, that's what I got immediately roped into right out the gate.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Okay. And. And so tell us about your ascent in leadership in your church.

Rachel Wunderli [00:04:06] Yeah. So the first two years was a slow roller, but I was actively volunteering all the time. So I wouldn't necessarily say I was in a leadership role, but for. For the first two years, I was serving every single week. Even if I wasn't scheduled to be singing on the stage, I was still front row encouraging the team because it was a very team atmosphere, team supportive atmosphere. And I was basically in charge of. I'd be given songs to lead. I would help with scheduling or admin stuff. I would help with admin stuff to a certain extent and basically assist my worship pastor. And then after the first, when a

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Mormon leads music, they're standing up there in front of, like, a little podium and doing like four. Four time.

Rachel Wunderli [00:04:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] With the hymn book in front of them. Right. Wave. Waving their arm. Is it different?

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:00] So it's totally different.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] How's it different?

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:02] It's totally different. We are up with. With portable mics, with a full band with a drummer and everything, full drum set, and we are, like, bouncing around the stage the entire time. It's a fun, lively atmosphere.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Karaoke or like, kind of.

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:17] Well, we have what I call what I call the confidence monitor, which is behind all of the people, so us from the stage can see that monitor behind everybody. And it's giving us our lyrics. So we'll look at that for lyrics. Everybody else has screens on the stage where they're looking for lyrics, so we don't have a hymn book that we open or anything that we've provide them the lyrics for the songs for that set list for the day. And then. And then we just. We take over and we just lead the set.

John Dehlin [00:05:43] And you're singing.

Rachel Wunderli [00:05:45] Yeah, we're singing, we're praying, we're speaking. We launch the service with, hey, everyone, We're. So there's a big drum roll into it, this big build by the band, and we're like, trying to get people hyped up. So we'll lead into it. Hey, everyone, we're glad you're here. So if it's your first time, we're gonna get rowdy, so just get up and clap with us. And it's really lively and fun. And then we'll go into some fast songs and we're singing, then we'll kind of tone it down and we. Usually a prayer will happen in that moment, and either myself or my. My work partner in this, whoever's in charge, the worship pastor, usually they'll say a prayer that will then usually lead. Segue perfectly into a slow song, one or two slow songs that will then lead the setup of the sermon.

John Dehlin [00:06:29] Okay, but you're kind of a soloist. Are you in your. Your co leader would be singing, and you'd decide which parts to sing and you'd harmonize.

Rachel Wunderli [00:06:39] Yeah, I mean, at this point, for the first two years, we were under a worship pastor, so we were assigned certain songs, and some weeks I'd be on as just backup, some, and I'd be harmonizing. And some weeks I would lead a song. Some weeks I wouldn't lead anything, but he'd want me to say the prayer. So in between songs, I'd, like. My mic would get turned on, I'd say the prayer, and then I'd go back to harmonizing. So for the first two years, I did lead a lot of songs, and it was assigned to me. And we would just kind of like rotate depending on. On what the sermon was going to be about. We'd usually pick songs that had to do with that subject, like faith. Or we. We'd align it with the. With the service at large.

John Dehlin [00:07:16] Man, when I hear about how, like, multifaceted, participatory, engaging, creative, produced it is, it makes me wonder how the Mormon Church has survived just so stilted and monotone and like.

Rachel Wunderli [00:07:34] Right, right. Like, I know, like, and. And let's be honest, we all know that the church has money, so it's like, just put some in to, you know, the music. As a musician, I really would have appreciated that As a Mormon, just like a little umph. A little.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] But the churches like make it worse. They've like outlawed certain instruments. Like no guitars and no brass instruments and only, only the organ or maybe a. Maybe I don't think guitars can even be used now.

Rachel Wunderli [00:08:02] Like not when I was leading songs as a Mormon for, for a prime for a program or something. We could not. We tried to sneak in a guitar. I remember one time and the bishop would not let it fly. So yeah, going from that to like a full blown band. It was a blast. It was so much fun. Rocking out for the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that you started there volunteering. So you weren't paid at that point?

Rachel Wunderli [00:08:27] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] What are the paid positions in a church like the one you attended?

Rachel Wunderli [00:08:31] There's very few. Usually the staff is very small. So I'll just say what I experienced. The pastoral staff was about six people. They were all paid. And then you have like some people on admin under them who are also paid. And then as you expand, you just kind of take your, you, you. What you see happening is the people who get on staff are like the super volunteers that they've kind of trained into these roles and then they find a role that, that they can afford to financially support and then that's how somebody were to get on staff. So a lot of these pastors, when the church was planted or when any church was planted, usually what pastors are doing is they're working, they're working another job at the same time that they're planting the church. So I knew a ton of my pastors at least who were working full time jobs at just corporate America jobs while also pastoring until they had the means to bring them on staff.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] And were the financials transparent? Would you have known how much your pastor and the assistant pastors were all making? Would you have known that?

Rachel Wunderli [00:09:38] I would have known my, the people kind of at my same level their salary because it would have matched with mine, but I wouldn't have known theirs. I could have given maybe a ballpark. They're transparent in the sense of if we have a big donation, which we do every year, it's called like a legacy offering or it's like a greater form of tithe that's once a year. They'll be, they'll try to be pretty transparent about where those funds are going to go. So if it's going to go to like a new building or reaching people in a third world country, they'll try to be transparent about that. I don't know to the extent of the transparency though, it just seemed to me like they were fairly open about where that money was going.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Do you have a sense for what a pastor at a random evangelical Christian church might make?

Rachel Wunderli [00:10:27] It totally depends. I would say if you're at a church that has, that has the means to have a second campus and you're about at second camp, you've grown enough to provide two campuses. They're probably in the 60k range. But then like my pastor's mentors, I would definitely put them well above the six figure range. And then these mega churches like Hillsong and Elevation, who are the biggest mega churches I can think of?

John Dehlin [00:10:53] Joel Osteen.

Rachel Wunderli [00:10:54] Joel Osteen type thing. That's millions annual.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] Okay.

Rachel Wunderli [00:11:00] Because they're also then profiting off of books and stuff that they write that all of their congregation will, will purchase because they're, they're just kind of bought into whatever they're going to make. So worship albums that a church creates that goes into their funds and their salary and things like that. So usually it'll start out in the 40, 50 and then scale all the way up. It totally depends on your growth, but I'd say on average maybe in like the 70k range.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] Okay. All right, so then how did you transition from kind of a volunteer to more levels of responsibility? How'd that go?

Rachel Wunderli [00:11:37] Well, I remember for, I was like in about a year and a half and I wasn't just volunteering for the worship team. This would be me and my sister, both were volunteering. Like if the kids camp needed help, we were taken off of work and helping with kids camp. When we built a second campus, we were there till late hours of the night, like building, physically building the stages and things like, like that. So they started, the leadership started taking note of who was willing to kind of go above and beyond and stay late hours and, and get, and take days off of work to help. And we started getting a little bit more attention and more opportunities given to us. So I started asking my pastors for more. I was like, give it, give me anything. Like I'm here to help, I'm here to serve, I'm here to do whatever. And I just started by way of force. But they were very, they, they easily allowed me into that space, just volunteering across all different categories of what the church needed. And then, and then eventually after about two years of going there, my worship pastor was stepped down. Who was in charge of the entire team at large. There wasn't really a hierarchy at this point within our team specifically it was just him and then everybody else. He was stepped down. And because of that, myself and one other guy were placed in charge. And at that point, we had two campuses. This was pre. Covid. Covid shut down one of the campuses and we kind of all came back together. But at that time, we basically each had to take a campus. And that's where I really started getting put in charge and being roped into staff meetings. I was invited to staff meetings, where they'll have staff meetings and then pastoral meetings, which are just for the pastors. I started getting roped into staff meetings at the time that my worship pastor got stepped.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] I mentioned this last time, but I'm still blown away by the idea that you had really given yourself to this church. Like, you're working and then every. It seems like every other spare minute you are wanting to serve the church. And I just. That level of commitment.

Rachel Wunderli [00:13:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] I mean, more. Even Mormons, it's like, okay, what's my calling? Okay, I'll do my calling.

Rachel Wunderli [00:13:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:53] That's even beyond what a Mormon kind of often wants to give to their church. And Mormons are viewed as very high demand, devout people.

Rachel Wunderli [00:14:02] Yeah, but you.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] This. I'm not calling your church a cult, but the level of commitment you're describing that you were offering to your church reminds me of the level of devotion that like, Keith Ranieri had from his followers or. Or L. Ron Hubbard or, you know, just, I'll just. I give my life to this organization.

Rachel Wunderli [00:14:25] Yeah, that's totally. That's totally what it was. I actually remember joking with my Mormon friends who were kind of giving me crap in my beginning of my transition, like, okay, you. You go find your Jesus and stuff. I'd be like, listen, dude, I am serving so much more. I'm serving 12 hour shifts on a Sunday, not three. And I'm also there every day. I mean, I'm there in the middle of the week for rehearsal, for worship and stuff like that. But then, like, I just wanted to be there. So, like, at this point, I genuinely just. Like, that was where. That was my second home. I just lived at that building. I wanted to be there all the time.

Guest 2 [00:15:00] And it's something that you're passionate about. Yeah, it's music. And you get to have some creativity in that, too, which I think might have drawn you.

Rachel Wunderli [00:15:10] Yeah, there's. Right. There's only two things in my whole life that I have never lost a passion for, and that is mental health and suicide intervention. Just being able to help in that realm. From the time I was like in 8th grade, I remember having a passion for that and music, and this platform provided me both of those things. I felt like I was literally saving lives and doing music at the same time. So around all these people who loved me so much, so it was like the best. I had no issues volunteering as much as I did. I was all here for it.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] I'm just struck by how much power that is to have over. Over an individual where they've just submitted. I mean, Jesus or whatever religion often talks about submission. You, they had you.

Rachel Wunderli [00:15:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] And I'm not saying they abused you. I'm just saying they had you.

Rachel Wunderli [00:16:02] No, I mean, you could use either. Or they definitely. They. They had me, and they knew that I was basically willing to do anything for that church. And. And they, I felt at the time, came to my protection against, you know, my exit of the Mormon Church and the pain that I felt there. And they were definitely taking specific things that I was in pain with in regards to Mormonism and feelings of being lied to and. And feelings of not feeling worthy and totally sandwiching it with this grace bubble of, no, that's not how the world works. That's how Jesus works. And we're gonna fight for you and be here for you and support you until you get to that place of believing that yourself. And we believe in you. And because we believe in you, we're gonna give you these opportunities. And I just was like, yes, I will take any and all opportunities, no matter what area. Even if it was the kids ministry, which I was not here for, I always say there' special place in heaven for people in kids ministry. I would still volunteer to in those areas as much as I possibly could.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] Yeah. And it just sounds like it was really good for you. Or at least at first it was really good for you. It really filled a need.

Rachel Wunderli [00:17:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] But then that's. That's so much power that they had over you, and it's kind of so scary.

Rachel Wunderli [00:17:24] Yeah. Yeah. And the crazy part is that, I mean, I'll go back to the bishop example. I really had an issue when I left the Mormon Church with this idea that, like, you know, I've had a personal relationship with God my whole life, and why do I need to go to this person to then tell me what my relationship with God can be like based off of these sins that I've committed that didn't make any sense to me. So then I go to the new church and I tell them that this was my experience in Mormonism, and their response isn't like, oh, yeah, we, we operate that way too, but we'll do it differently. It was very much like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's really bad. That's not how God operates. Like, your relationship with God is between you and God and that's it. And none of us, including us as pastors, should ever get in the middle of that. And it was things like that, that, that I was being fed all the time that made me feel just so safe and so protected.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so how did it proceed?

Crisis and Betrayal Within the Church

Rachel Wunderli [00:18:24] Okay, so my worship pastor, who I absolutely, like, loved this was the same one in part one who chased me out of the, the building the day one that I, that I attended this church. That's kind of like an ongoing joke now, just between, in the, within the community. But like, he really roped me and my sister into, into like a family position pretty much. He knew that we were the only people in our family who had left the Mormon Church at this point, to our knowledge. And we didn't really have anyone we could talk to about that. So he knew we were really close to our aunt and uncle who were not Christian. And he kind of was like, all right, we're gonna be that, that person for you. Like, this is, he basically said, this goes beyond pastoral ship when it comes to you guys. Like, with you guys, yes, I'm your pastor, yes, I'm your mentor. But also, you need to know, speaking for the majority, like speaking for us as a staff of pastoral staff at large, we want to be there for you guys in the realm of family. Like, we will replace your family if, if needed. And we, me and my sister started going over to like, their houses all the time. Just like all the time, multiple times week, sometimes sleepovers. And it just wasn't weird. We'd babysit all of their kids. Like, it was just if they ever went out of town, we'd watch their dog, we watch their house. The pastoral staff really like just brought us in, but specifically this one. And in the beginning of like 2019, we had been there, I'd been there for almost two years. Me and my sister started really noticing a decline in this pastor's mental health. And we started noticing that he was super depressed and self medicating behind closed doors. And nobody knew about that except for us because we were behind those closed doors because we were invited into like the home space in the safe spaces that other team members weren't really invited into. And so we, we basically found out. Well, we didn't find out. We were told by him things that he was struggling with. And it had to do with pretty much, I mean, anything it could possibly think of that could lead somebody to, to suicidal ideation. Just kind of identity. He was going through an identity crisis. He was really struggling in his marriage. And that to not just us who were there all the time, but to the vast majority was kind of obvious. Not in a way of they were yelling at each other, toxic on the surface, but just kind of like there was this non existent relationship there that we all kind of just ignored. But when he started vocalizing things about that, we were like, oh, okay, no, this really is an issue. And we basically decided, my sister and I together, that we were just going to kind of hold these secrets for him at that time because we didn't feel like it was our business to tattle on him to the lead pastor who was his brother. Because we're like, if you guys aren't going to talk to each other as siblings, we're not going to get in the middle of that. So for a couple months we basically decided we're going to let him figure this out, but we didn't want to lose him as a pastor because he was the best. So we were like, figure it out, figure it out. We're not going to tell people any of your stuff, but figure it out. And he then tells us that like, about like a big transgression that he committed with like within his, his marriage. And we still decided to kind of take that one to the grave, knowing that he was eventually going to come out with it. And eventually it did come out and he was stepped down and immediately not just stepped down from his position and his job, but he was removed from the community. And he was, he was just, he was removed completely. And we as a team, as a core team, were basically told to not communicate with him anymore. And this is where it gets tricky because my sister and I, we're not just looking at him at this point as somebody who was our pastor, who, where that position was going to be replaced by somebody who was just as awesome. This was someone who was a family member to us. Like he was, he was family. We were gonna, we're gonna die for this person as well as the rest of them. Like we felt really, we felt kind of close to the rest of them. But for him specifically, this was like our brother who we were not just gonna abandon in his time of need. So we basically made a decision to stay in contact with him after he had been stepped away, all thinking this whole time that he was at any point going to be allowed back. Because we had never seen this happen in Mormonism. We had. I had heard of excommunication and things like that, but we had never seen it actually happen to where in a divorce situation, they're upset that he wanted to continue with a divorce, pursue a divorce, and so they removed him for that. We had never seen that in Mormonism take place to where somebody was actually just fully removed and you never are allowed to talk to them again. So we're like, this is kind of weird. We're not going to buy into that, so we'll stick around. And we never told the other pastors about that. And he ended up like, I'm trying to figure out what order to tell the story in. So. So he was never allowed back. Still to this day, never allowed back at that church. And we did not know that that was going to be the outcome. But just saying that that that is the outcome. Us going into staying in contact with him and kind of providing a safe space for him in this time of like trau mission, we thought was like going to be temporary and eventually his whole community will be able to help. Well, at the same time, simultaneously, the only people that they had really to replace him was myself and one other guy. And the two of us became very, very quickly elevated into a worship pastoral role. We just weren't ordained as pastors, we weren't in pastoral meetings, but to every degree we were operating as pastors.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] You were getting paid? Paid.

Rachel Wunderli [00:24:38] I was not getting paid at this point and I and my partner was not getting paid either. So both of us were volunteers, we were both in charge of a campus and we were both just trying to keep the team afloat. And all the while I have my ex pastor basically, like supporting me in all of this because he's like, yeah, no, the team like has to go on and. And eventually I'll be allowed back. Like, there's no way they're going to keep me out of this situation, out of, away from my kids and out of the community for a long time. So there was a lot of like, I'm being fed support from him while he's struggling and then also being fed this information about him by the other pastors that like, he can't be trusted. And what they didn't know is that at that point all of our trust, my sister and I's trust, went into him, not them, because they only communicated to us really in regards of leadership through him. So we didn't really trust, we didn't know who to Trust. But all I knew is all the things that they were calling, calling him out for, for lying about, I was able to prove was not actually true because I was also in contact with him. Seeing certain. Certain papers that were written up, severance packages, conversations, text message conversations that were taking place, I could see that what they were relaying to the team, the leaders that still stood there, were not sharing the full truth of what was going on and that I had some issues with. I was then pulled into a bunch of conversations around that same time, and one of them was, I believe, to be an interrogation with this guy that I didn't really know, who was like a therapist from out of state, who basically pulled me in to say, I know all of this about their marriage, and you and your sister are really close to the situation. What do you know? And trying to give me great confidentiality and give me information about them to try to. To get information out of me and see what I knew. And at this point, I'm being called into pastoral meetings and they're asking me questions and they're trying. They're phrasing it in a way that's very much like, we care about you and we want to make sure that you're okay, so tell us what you know. And I still, at that point was like, I don't feel safe telling them. I just remember not feeling safe. Not because they did anything wrong at that point, but I just knew that there was not. Not everything was being shared, and I didn't feel like it was safe to share business that had nothing to do with me at point with them. So it was like two months of pure hell. I just remember being in a really heavy state of trauma to the point where I was not now friends with any of my friends who still attended that church because I was being told not to speak of the situation by these pastors. I was being told not to speak of the situation to anybody, not to a single friend. They didn't even know how much my sister was involved because I tried to keep her out of it for her own protection. But while I was being pulled left and right and trying to get information out of, I was. I was just kind of like, in shock at everything that was. That was going on and not able to now heal with my own friends and kind of like detox with them and unwind. And I remember losing a ton of friends in this moment because they're all like, thinking, oh, you're just being elevated in leadership, so you think you're too cool for us. So we're gonna like not be friends with you. And fair thought from the information that they had. But what they didn't know was going on, what actually majority of people from that church still to this day don't know about. It's pretty much everything that's gonna come out of my mouth. But one of the things was the fact that I was very much kind of forced into this isolation where the only people I was really allowed to talk to were the pastors who at the time I wasn't sure, sure if I could trust at that moment because I did already catch them in some lies that they did not know about. So at this point I make a decision like I am going to help the church and stay there because my past ex pastor is telling me that that's fine, that I have this call on my life still and I need to pursue ministry because I'm gifted in these all these ways and they're, you know, feeding me all this crap. And then, and then at the same time stay in relationship with, with him. I just didn't feel like leaving him in his time of need was okay. And I also didn't feel like leaving the church was something I wanted to do. So fast forward him and I. He ends up telling me, well, he ends up telling me around this whole time period that he has actually fallen in love with me. I did not know how to deal with that at that time that he first said that because I was very much in a place of like, I remembered my response being kind of like in the form of a joke because I was just felt awkward and I was just kind of like, okay, I view you as a brother, but that's, I'll take that. I'll. I can hold space for you to feel that way is basically what I think I said was something like, I can hold space for you to feel that way. Just don't expect that I want to feel that way back. And we would then joke about it all the time and he didn't have any expectations in that regard. He just said, he just said I've been talking to, to I've been trying to heal and like I think I just need to like come out with this. And he tells me, well after, you know, all the, all of the crazy season happens we. I fell for him too. And of course I did. Like now in hindsight I'm like, I was in close com proximity with him for a long time. He was a pivotal role in my faith transition and, and in my becoming of a Christian and Then, like, we formed this best friendship and we fall in love. And I was, I was shocked at the time that that happened, but now I'm staring down this barrel of like, okay, okay, we're a few months into this and you're still not allowed back at the church. And I didn't know that was gonna happen. So now how do we deal with this now? And it took a long time, it was like a really slow roller for the relationship to, like, fully manifest, but we ended up being in, like, a full blown secret relationship. And at the time, simultaneously, I am being elevated more and more and more into leadership. And I have him telling me, keep doing that, because eventually I will be allowed back. Like, it was always this thought of, I will be allowed back. And I was like, defending the pastors to him and we'd. And then defending him to other people on team, and I was just in this really confused spot that I couldn't really talk to anybody about other than him.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Was he still married at the time?

Rachel Wunderli [00:31:38] No, legally, but they had sold their house and were, like, living in different homes.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] They had separated.

Rachel Wunderli [00:31:44] Yeah, they had separated.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] So was he, like, Was he way older than you?

Rachel Wunderli [00:31:48] No, he was five years older than. Okay, so we were pretty. But I mean, I, I have come to terms now. I will say that I, I'm well aware that there was heavy degrees of grooming going on, and he was a power differential.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] He was your boss, basically.

Rachel Wunderli [00:32:02] Yeah, I. There was a leadership. There was a, There was a breach in leadership behavior. And I, I can come to terms with that now. But also, you're still.

John Dehlin [00:32:15] Also, again, we talked earlier about your submission. Right. You. You wanted to give everything to the church.

Rachel Wunderli [00:32:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] And you would have felt like the church had given you everything.

Rachel Wunderli [00:32:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:27] So then your pastoral leader or boss would probably have an enormous amount of power or influence, probably undue influence on you.

Rachel Wunderli [00:32:40] Yeah, I mean, they all did. And at the time that he got stepped down, he's really the only one who was in that role. So when he, when that switched, I, I didn't, I didn't have this, this, this like, I'm gonna die on a hill for this church mentality. At the time that he got stepped down, I was really doing it for. For a bunch of other reasons. But, I mean, I developed this loyalty to the pastors that were left after that, which was weird because I also was so not in favor of how they handled his situation and how they still were handling his situation.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] Well, you probably didn't want to see the church explode.

Rachel Wunderli [00:33:20] I didn't want to see the church explode. And he really did hold it together in a lot of areas of ministry, like, big, important areas of ministry that kept the church going. So I knew that they needed help. I knew that they were hurting, too, because this is not the reality, the outcome that they wanted with their pastor, other pastor, but also their sibling. And I'm just kind of like, okay, how do I help? How do I be in all spaces? How do I help everybody? And kind of like, not go against my own character of leaving people in their time of need. And then the next year and a half or so was like, me. I mean, covet hits. So him and I basically quarantined together. And at the same time, we're doing online services for the church. And I'm constantly involved in the church, but I'm working full time at a different job, still not on staff yet. And at the end of 2020 was when I got put on staff. And there were moments within this relationship where we. We could easily go back and forth from romantic to platonic because we were so used to just the best friendship was the core of it. So we. It was easy. When we felt moments of like, ugh, is this really, like, God's will? We would always question this. Like, is this God's will? Because if it is, why would it be this hard? Why would it be under this. These circumstances that just suck? We would question things, we'd feel guilty, and we'd go into realms of. Of. Of platonic relationship. And at the time that I got hired, I remember them asking me, like, are you in any, like, active sin? Like, before they. There's like, this vetting that goes on beforehand. And I remember saying no, because in that moment, it was like, well, no, I'm actually. Yeah, like, we had stopped and. And I'm actually not an active sin at the moment. And drinking hadn't been an issue for a while.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] And just be clear, his brother was the lead pastor.

Rachel Wunderli [00:35:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] So you guys were high. You were able to hide your relationship with the head pastor's brother. Yeah, I'm sorry. With the brother of the guy who had been put away. The assistant.

Rachel Wunderli [00:35:26] Yeah, because he. I mean, he very much got removed from, like, even family events, like family dinners and holidays and stuff. He was no longer cut off. He was cut off completely because they just. What he was doing was not. Was not computing with their faith. Faith system. Like, it very much had to do with the fact that they could not. They could not reconcile this. This lack of want to reconcile this marriage. And they couldn't get beyond that even though they saw the, the, the hardships within the marriage. So yeah, I get hired on staff at the end of 2020. And at that point I was like, okay, I'm going to try to do everything I can to just operate in and through the Holy Spirit is so Christianese and into the will of God, whatever that means. And sometimes that meant that our relationship was cut off, sometimes it meant that it wasn't. But either way, I was dead. I was, was fully involved in that church to the highest degree. I mean I was in every meeting and, and really, really like loved and cared about it at that point. And at this point I'm also for the first time when I got put on staff, right around the time I got put on staff for the first time, kind of getting mad at, at him, my ex pastor, going kind of like, well, now I really care about like your siblings who I'm now working for and under and they, they still are talking crap about you. So like, I don't know what to really do with this. Like, because I love both of you now. So now it's like, oh, I really, really love and care about both. How can I make both happen? And still the narrative went back to it won't always be like this. And I just, I just believe that. Cuz why would I believe that somebody would cut a family member off forever for something as like divorce? That happens all the time. Time.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] I mean, Christianity is supposed to be about forgiveness, right? Isn't that one of the central tenets of Christianity?

Rachel Wunderli [00:37:28] Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And they would always come up with some excuse as to why that they, they were forgiving but you know, they couldn't be in proximity with him. Like there was always some excuse. And to me, I find all of those excuses that they pulled just BS at this point there was so much more I feel like could have happened to make both parties win so that he was allowed to still be at church with his kids because at the end of the day that's what he really cared about. He wanted to be back at church, to not to get back on the stage or to join the team again, but because one, that's where his guy friends and his really big support system are and that's also where his kids are. So he wanted them to see that even though mom and dad aren't together anymore, like we can still operate as a family and that he was never given that opportunity. And his best friend, who he was really close to in ministry was put in his position at the end of the day, over time, so he couldn't even really talk to him because there was just. It was just too complex. He didn't want to lead anybody astray necessarily.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] So you weren't able to, like, you were in secret. You were kept as a girlfriend kind of in secret. You weren't able to meet his kids or like, I mean, I knew his

Rachel Wunderli [00:38:43] kids because we were all around the same people.

John Dehlin [00:38:46] But no one could know you were dating him?

Rachel Wunderli [00:38:49] Yeah, no one. No one could know. And. And honestly, like, I don't know if I'll hate myself for saying this later, but he was more likely to expose the relationship in a way because he wanted it to be. He didn't want it to be something that was hidden. We were just kind of trying to play it smart. I'm the one who is more so like, this cannot not come out until you guys are in a good space, like as a family, to where this can be something that's received. Because in the very beginning of the relationship, I would hear things from him like, so and so, and so, and so the current pastors that are still there are going to love this because they love you. So eventually they will come around and they will totally accept the relationship and love the relationship because they love you so much. So I was hearing things like this, this totally believing them, because why wouldn't I believe somebody who knows should know their sibling pretty well? And at the same time that I got hired on was also around the same time that I realized that the reality we thought was going to take place was never going to happen. They were never going to come around. They were never going to come to terms with the fact that this divorce was happening and they were never going to. Going to be able to trust him again. And that was really difficult for me to just kind of wrap my head around. So the same type of thing kind of continued. It was like on and off and on and off. But I mean, relationally, we still were hanging out like all the. All the time. If we were off and platonic, we were still hanging out and together and. And then fast forward to June of 2021. So about almost a year ago now, he died. He was hit by a car while on a motorcycle and was on life support for about 24 hours. And then passes away. And in this moment, I. My whole life kind of flipped on its head because for like a year and a half to, even before that, when he was telling me and my sister stuff that we were keeping for him, he promised for so long that if, if anything ever was figured out or found out about that, he would be the one sitting in those conversations, taking the accountability and responsibility for things that went down and would explain from the beginning how me and my sister were even roped into it and all that stuff. And so I never was planning in my mind these big conversations that I would have to, one, tell people that about the relationship, but two, like, tell them the extent of, like, how far back that goes of what we knew at the time, or like, even my frustrations around how they handled his situation. I was not prepped for any of these conversations to have with them because he was always the one saying, I will have those conversations. You don't need to worry about a thing. I will have those conversations. So when he passed away, they found out, I think through like a text message or something, that we had at least been in communication still. I don't know what they know about a relationship at that time, but they found out about just the fact that we kept in contact. And I was stepped down from my position on staff due to a breach in trust just because we stayed in contact with each other. So at that point, knowing that their taking things away and already kind of starting this isolation process with me, just knowing that we stayed in contact, I kind of gave everybody this, what I call layer one of the story, which is where I just kind of admit to staying in contact with him and the relationship. The romantic side still wasn't coming out. But at the same time I'm also dealing with this heavy trauma of he's, he's been dead for only like a, A, a week or two before I start getting in these conversations. And I've never lost anybody to a deep degree. So then losing like my intimate partner who I'm in love with, I was just like, my brain was not even here. So I'm like signing contracts of like termination papers and doing all these things like, and having all these conversations while trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] So you lose the love of your life and they fire you.

Rachel Wunderli [00:43:14] Yeah, yeah. So they, they fired me for breach and trust, which I, at the time and still go back to that time period and say I, I defended them for that decision for a really long time, like for about three months. I remember people at the church who were, I was close to, like my partner who led the campuses with me, who was like a brother to me, having conversations with me about this, and I was like, please don't get mad at them, them for removing Me from certain things, like, because I betrayed their trust. And that's true. Like, to this day, I still, like, I, I, in holding myself accountable, I betrayed their trust deeply and feel terrible about that. It just wasn't as simple as they made it seem. Starting from before he even got stepped down. It just wasn't that simple. So I got betrayed their trust.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] But you were also trying to keep the church from blowing up.

Rachel Wunderli [00:44:11] Yeah. And that we still have not even talked about me and them, because what ensued later was a giant cutoff. So they, they. I lose my job and my position on the team, and I'm still kind of going to church and I'm in the front row just trying to support the team through bawling my eyes out. Like, couldn't even function really at this point.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] But that's also another public shaming because now you were in a very visible public position, and now all of a sudden you're, you're sitting back with the members.

Rachel Wunderli [00:44:46] Yeah. And that had happened. That had happened to, like, two or like a couple people before me too. So I was kind of just used to it. I didn't think anything of it. I just thought, yeah, when you get stepped down, you just go straight back to the front row and operate as such and support the team and support the pastor. And so even though all I wanted to do was kind of hibernate in my room for an eternity because I was dealing with the, the burial of him, I. I just had to kind of keep operating so that I wouldn't be figured out base, basically. And then after about a month and a half, I think, and my timeline for this is also. Is. Might be skewed because I have, I have trauma blocked some of the, some of the time frame, but it was within like, like that same summer. The pastor that was assigned to me for care, who I would meet with once or twice a week, I. She basically sat me down and said, if. Do you have anything else that you need to tell us? And I'm like thinking to myself, she's asking this probably because she has something on me. So I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie again. Like, this is, this is my time. And I could feel my heart racing. And I was just kind of like in this office, just going like, just silent for like, four minutes to the point where she knew that something else was going to come out. And in that four minutes of silence, she was basically saying, no matter what it is, we're gonna care for you. We're gonna be here for you we're gonna make sure that you're taken care of. Because I remember saying, right before I came out with it, I said, I'm so terrified that I'm gonna have to grieve alone. Because the grief I've already dealt with over the last few weeks of people not knowing the depth of my grief has been. Has almost killed me. I've almost taken my. My life in this season. And she reassured me that wouldn't happen. So I, I told her, I just said at this point, they knew he was in love with me because that to many people was obvious. I missed that part. But that's why, another reason I was brought into conversations a lot back then, because they could kind of see that he was in love with me. I did not. I was just oblivious to that for a period of time. But I just said I was also in love with him. And we did cross a physical line and. And that's all I got out. And I only say that verbatim because to me that's important because it's all that I ever got out to this day. Because what transpired after that was an immediate removal. It was, don't come to church for the next four weeks so that we can navigate this as a staff to figure out how to best care for everybody. And then at the end of that four weeks, it was, we're asking that you find community elsewhere. And also we're going to share with the entire team what you did. And that was only a few days away from this, from them telling me that. So I had about a few days to look at all the people who I knew were going to be in that room and try to reach out to as many of them as I could, to kind of get in front of it, to. To be able to share my own story myself and apologize to them face to face for lying to them about this relationship that I had and kind of explain things from the very beginning. But I wasn't really given that opportunity because it was rushed. So they basically told the team that I was involved in an affair with him and that's. And that they feel super betrayed. And from what I know of that meeting, that is the only detail they really gave in regard. They kind of just again oversimplified the whole thing into just that. And then the rest of the three hour meeting was them basically making it seem like this is why we're hurt and this is why we need support as a team and a staff because we're hurting, because we are burying our brother. And at the same time, we're dealing with this now, and this is, like, really difficult. And I know that the end of the meeting. The meeting ended with, like, the whole team praying over them. Them and, like, basically being like, we're gonna be there for you. And I know that. I don't know. I've only gotten snippets of this meeting from my sister who was in this meeting and one of my friends who had left. And I know that they were also told in that meeting, too, that if anybody reached out to me, that they would feel uncomfortable with that.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] So kind of the shunning idea.

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] Was the divorce ever finalized?

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:08] No.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] So from their perspective, it was an affair. But you're saying they were separated.

Guest 2 [00:49:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] Was the wife still attending church with the kids?

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] So part of it was the wife would be there and you. So once it was known that you had a relationship, even though they were separated, maybe that wasn't known to everyone.

Rachel Wunderli [00:49:29] Everyone knew that they were separated. That was. That was. That was very well known. I was even. I kind of even passed in passing conversations with her at this point. From the time our relationship started romantically, I very much tried to get as much distance from her as possible, even though we were operating in the same church, because I felt. I mean, I felt terrible. I didn't want to make small talk with her knowing that, like, I. That her ex. Husband. Husband had fallen in love with me, and we were, like, forming this relationship. So. But from what I know and hear from other people is, like, there were conversations of. About. About dating other people. And. And it was very well known by the community that they were separated.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] Why didn't they get divorced?

Rachel Wunderli [00:50:14] His reasons to me were they went to file. They went to. They started the filing process in the. I think the end of 2019. So pretty quickly after all this happened, they started the filing process. Once he got word that. That some other people were getting heavily involved on her side, he did not want to pursue it any further because at that point, they had basically 50. 50 custody of their kids from just a cordial agreement. And he didn't want to push that because he knew that the people on her side were fighting for, like, full custody of his kids. And so what he told me was, I don't want to fight this anymore for now. I want to let the heat kind of die down, and then I'll pursue the final. The final side of it, because I don't want to lose the kids. And that was the main reason. And. And coming from me, who has. I Have a lot of divorces in my family. And I've seen how custody battles work sometimes. I didn't press that because I was just kind of like, okay, yeah, I've seen custody battles go down really ugly. And for the parent, a parent that didn't do anything wrong, it's just kind of like when the wrong people get involved too much, they. And have too much power. He kind of gave me every reason for me to not push the process finalization.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] This isn't a super important thing. I'm just kind of curious, and you can answer or not, but did his original removal. Had your relationship started before his original removal from the church?

Rachel Wunderli [00:51:46] No.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] Okay. And did your relationship start before the separation or was it after the separation?

Rachel Wunderli [00:51:53] Like, separation of how they were living in separate homes at that point? So.

Guest 2 [00:51:58] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] When you. You. When you guys started to have a romantic relationship after they were physically separated.

Rachel Wunderli [00:52:05] Yes. The only thing that I knew of. I mean, I knew to some degree his feelings for me prior to that.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] Right.

Rachel Wunderli [00:52:17] But I did not fall. I did not reciprocate in the falling in love with him until they. Their house was sold. They were in. Yeah, they were in separate homes. But there wasn't even really, like, a conversation that went down with me and the leaders afterwards that even explained that before I was removed. Like, there was a lot. There are a lot of things that they still to this day, like, don't know about. Didn't ask about, just be. Just, I don't know, out of. They were upset. Upset.

John Dehlin [00:52:51] But so in your mind, were you involved in an affair or not? I mean, there was the. Keeping it from his brother and the community because they had asked you to stay away, which was shunning that you probably didn't feel was very Christian.

Rachel Wunderli [00:53:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] Did you think of yourself as being in an affair?

Rachel Wunderli [00:53:09] I only thought that way when it would have to do with, like, run ins with his wife at the time, like, who I was still seeing at church. I just felt, like, weird about that. I felt. I felt terrible. I mean, I still, to this day, out of all people, if I were to go back and have a conversation with anybody today still, I would give her the conversation because she's the only one who I feel kind of deserves it at this point.

John Dehlin [00:53:35] What would you say to her?

Rachel Wunderli [00:53:36] I would. I would just say how, like, how sorry I am and how much I can't imagine the pain that I probably put her in with her. Her considering me a friend to a certain degree and then having this happen. I just. I would. I Want her to know so badly that like, if, if I could take anything back, I would do it in, in any way that wouldn't cause her harm. I don't know what that would look like. I don't have a proposal of any sort. But she is the only person from that entire situation who still makes me like, emotional because she was a great human being and just a great person. And honestly would have, would have probably gone about the separation in a very cordial way and would have fought for him to be back at church for their kids sake had it not been for the amount of people to get involved. And she was just very. She was just a very sweet. She didn't deserve, she did not deserve to go through the stuff that she's gone through, through and finding out about us after he's dead and she can't quite ask. Talk to him about that. That has got to be excruciatingly painful because there's so many things that I wish I could question him about now that I can't.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] Do you have a sense for what their agreement between each other might have been about dating while separated? Did they even have an understanding?

Rachel Wunderli [00:55:07] They never talked about it. No, it was, it was never, it was never something that, that they wanted to talk about. They had never gotten to a point where they're talking about like introducing people to the kids, like new people to the kids. They never got to that point. And the only reason he did not get to that point is because the person he was dating was me. And, and I think if he would have started dating somebody who was like totally separate from the church, he would have, prior to the time that he passed away, instigated a conversation with her that would have been like, okay, how are we going to do deal with this? Do we, do we introduce them to the kids? Things like that. To my knowledge, those conversations never took place because he was, he didn't need it to take place until my, the relationship with me was able to be known because he didn't want to be with anyone else, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] And I don't even know, but I'm imagining it. It's possible that the understanding ed with her was different than what he told you the understanding was with her. Does that make sense?

Rachel Wunderli [00:56:09] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:56:09] Yeah.

Rachel Wunderli [00:56:10] There were certain things like I was being given a lot of stuff from the staff's perspective of like, he's lying, he's lying. I would question him and make him kind of prove to me certain conversations that took place to, to make sense of it. I never, I Never saw anything that went against what he was telling me as truth. But now I can see there's probably a ton of stuff that I didn't know about or that was phrased slightly different from what I was given, which totally, you know, sucks, but. Because we can't talk to him about it. But yeah, I mean, she's the only person at this point who I would put myself in a situation with if she wanted that for reconciliation. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] Well, I'm feeling sad for everyone, like from your pers. I mean, I feel sad for her, I feel sad for the, you know, the church, but I'm also feeling sad for you that you finally find this home, you're willing to give your life to it, you're serving in it, but then this guy over you with the power differential falls in love with you and. And then it all gets weird. But then you're trying to, I imagine. And they might have been avoiding a divorce because that could have been scandalous for the church and the church probably didn't want people in the inner leadership getting divorced and all the awkwardness that would come from that because it seems like it's kind of a family run church.

Rachel Wunderli [00:57:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:49] And I'm seeing you just kind of being pulled in two directions. Serving the church, giving your life to the church, trying to, to help the church avoid a big scandal, and then feeling like one brother's telling you stay away from the other brother, and then the other brother saying, hey, he'll forgive me soon, don't worry about it, just stick with me here. Like, it's just. And you're just having healed from all this trauma now found your home and now you've lost what you felt was the love of your life. Like, yeah, that's like from dream to nightmare. Double nightmare.

Rachel Wunderli [00:58:29] Yeah. Really? Yeah, it really did. It felt like an overnight nightmare that just ensued. And it's just the hard part now is the fact that there are so many factors that went into why like, my sister and I, from the get go, decided to bury his stuff for him and like why we felt so close to him in the first place and why we couldn't share things with the pastoral staff that I eventually became closer with, but at the time wasn't like super close with. There's so many things that have not been discussed that they did not want to have any type of conversation about before completely removing me. So that, in my opinion, I think control the narrative so that they can control the narrative. And that's why I say that she is the only person Who I would go back apologize to. Because at this point, the staff at large has made quite a few decisions for me that have taken and removed 95% of the people that were in my life, who were safe spaces, who I viewed as family and friends. I've lost in the last year. Every single person at that church, aside from maybe three people, have like shunned me and, and, and all based off of this tiny snippet of the narrative that they were given. Because my pastors didn't even, I guess, really want to have a conversation about it, which. And then they'll go like, preach about reconciliation the next day. And I'm just kind of like, can't really operate around people in that space right now anymore because I'm going. They are. Yeah, get is giving you this nice sermon. This is great. This is great that we feel all these things. But when push comes to shove, their own brother was removed from. From community for something that is a very common thing. Unfortunately, that happens in our society. Substance addiction or addiction, infidelity, divorce in general. It's just like these things aren't uncommon and he gets completely removed. And like there were things back then that I was dealing with that they still don't know of. Like, you know, he handed me his gun to hold on to for a couple periods of time because he was. He was gonna end his life due to the abrupt removal of community. And I saw him go through that pain in real time and I could empathize it with it to a certain degree. But now being on that side of it where the community was just like abruptly removed, I cannot, I don't know how he lived through that, honestly, because it. That has been the hardest thing. I mean, burying him has been the hardest thing. But on top of that, losing your entire safe space and your community, that's something that like I. Somebody would have to go through in order to like fully understand how. How much gravity the. That that is weighs on a person's life.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] Is there a chance that the death on the motorcycle had some. Was self instigated in any way, do you know?

Rachel Wunderli [01:01:51] Well, the accident itself. He was hit from behind. He was stopped at a light on Redwood Road and broad daylight. Just hit from behind by somebody who's like texting and driving. So the, the accident itself, no. But the purchase of the motorcycle I do believe was an act of recklessness because at that point he had finally gotten. I'm gonna be super careful with this one. But he finally got to a point where he realized he was never going to be allowed back in community unless he reconciled this marriage that he was so far away from at this point, he didn't even, like, know how that was gonna happen. And I feel that he bought the motorcycle as a way of basically saying, I'm not gonna end my life. I wouldn't do that to you or my kids, but I'm gonna be, I'm gonna act in a form of recklessness. And I have a hard time with that now. I did not, I didn't even know he had a motorcycle. He only had it for about five weeks before the crash. He specifically told our friends not to tell me about it until he got his gear because he knew that out of all people, I would be call that out right away of, you're only doing this because you are feeling reckless due to the last two years of your life, and it's not worth it. Like, just please don't do that. And he knows he was going to receive that response for me. So when I got the call that he got in a motorcycle accident, I was extremely confused for a long time because I didn't even know he had one. But I do think about that. I'm like, if he would have just been allowed back in community, would he still be around? And it's not me trying to blame any specific person for his death. He definitely made poor decisions that went into why he was removed in the first place. But it was, I think that this death could have been preventable. And I have a hard time reconciling that in my grief. On the grief side of it.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] Yeah. Like, as I'm drawing now, trying to draw a parallel between, between this church and maybe my experiences in Mormonism, I guess I am seeing some parallels, whether it's undue influence on you, whether it's inappropriate leadership behavior, grooming to some degree, imbalance of power, patriarchal kind of leadership that becomes problematic, to silencing and hiding things, to sexual scandal that becomes hidden, to shunning and ostracizing and even excommunication. Like, there's just, there's a lot that feels familiar to me about the story.

Rachel Wunderli [01:04:33] Yeah, yeah, it's. It's really same. And it's unfortunate because there were so many conversations that I was in as a leader, in ministry with, with people leaving Mormonism where I was promising them, you won't experience the same thing here. And I think about those faces in my mind now all the time. Of course, I didn't know any better, but I think about that all the time. And I, I, I Just said over and over, like this doesn't happen here, this won't happen here. We're, we're, we're grace filled and we have the hard conversations and things like that, that, and so for all this to unfold the way that it did, with not even a conversation before, they made some pretty drastic decisions, not just with me, but with like a few people before me, including him, I'm just kind of like, okay, this is exactly what these documentaries are like, warning the world about that. When I watched the Hillsong documentary and the way that leaders and volunteers are groomed to, to behave and to honor your pastor no matter what, there was a group who would specifically come into conferences that we would have talking about how our only job as second tier volunteers is to honor the vision of the pastor. It really had nothing to do with Jesus. It had everything to do with honoring the vision of the pastor. And at the time I would hear these words and I was fully bought in. And now reading put posts of my friends who don't talk to me anymore who are at that church still, I'm reading their posts of like these conferences and I'm, and I'm seeing it from a totally different perspective of a very cult like brainwashed world where we're just sucked into this reality that's, that's not real reality, this condemnation that Christians feel is on their backs and this, this target that's on their back all the time and this enemy who's snaking his way into the destruction of Christianity, it's like in my opinion, kind of made up. Like they made it up in their own world. And that is just so jarring for me now to kind of think about because I fully believed that that's what was going on.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] And when you, when you listen to the podcasts like Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, which we talked about out, we can provide a link to that. Like this is like every Christian church ever has sexual scandal, has pastor abuse, has, you know, it's just, and even my Christian friends that I mentioned, like Randy and Allison and Steve and others, yeah, a lot of them, it's just like, yeah, all churches are corrupt. Like I'm a Christian, but like churches know, you know what I mean? Because like I don't think you can have a church without corruption and scandal and abuse.

Rachel Wunderli [01:07:35] I don't think, no, I now sitting where I'm sitting now for sure, I don't think so. I'd like to hope for optimism here, but honestly with my experience, I just, I don't think that that's possible. The problem is when you start like preaching that like you have found the, the diamond in the rough, like you have found the needle in the haystack, you just, you've landed in the, the perfect, the perfect place that just so happens to not have any abuse or any cover ups going on or anything like that. And, and now looking back and my experience there, there was much more than just my situation that was covered up and twisted and manipulated into something that really was. And the unfortunate part is that I think majority of the congregation who they're fearful of losing would have accepted the truth. And I think out of fear they make up something that's unnecessary to protect them and make themselves at the top feel like victims when really I think people are a lot are capable of holding information and, and providing forgiveness for people more so than people think. But when you get in leadership like that, the level of control that you need to have over your FL is like more than I've ever seen. Even in Mormonism. Like we had to write notes of conversations that we would have with people on our team and submit it to the pastors so that they could be informed on the care that was being taken place. Taking place is how it was phrased. But really it's like keeping tabs on every single thing that, that people are going through and only getting a little snippet of it. It's just a little bit of invasive and, and I just, I wish that they would have just allowed the person who committed the crime or whatever to say whatever they wanted to say and, and, and, and tell like the, the truth in that moment. Instead, they felt the need to kind of skew the narrative just enough to make it seem like they're the only victims. And I feel like even my close friends, friends, previous close friends who are still there, would have for sure forgiven me for the relationship and everything like that. Because they did. They would sit in a conversation with me, many people, and, and hear me out. Just kind of, I would say the same thing I kind of said to you and they'd be like, I love you and we're here for you. And then they'd get in a conversation with a pastor and I would hear from them again. And that happened over and over and over for a period of a few months to where I finally just had to cut myself off from anybody who would reach out with like, oh, thinking of you, praying for you. I just kind of had to stop responding to those types of texts because I'm like, if you really cared. You would give me a conversation and you'd give me the time of day. And if you're going to a pastor who's saying something that doesn't align with what I said, bring it, bring it to me. Because I'm not afraid to address it. I'm not afraid to address whatever it is. But it seemed like they were afraid to address a lot of stuff and, and yeah, there's just layers and layers and layers of things that they did not handle well. When he originally got stepped down, that drastically affected why I and my sister were both so heavily involved, and we never once have had a conversation about that with any of them.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Well, I'm so sorry. My heart's broken for everyone involved.

Rachel Wunderli [01:11:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:10] For him, for his wife, for all the leaders. For you. Like, what a mess.

Rachel Wunderli [01:11:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] I want to ask about your deconstruction afterwards, but, Jen, I want to give you a chance. If you have any other questions or comments, anything you want to share, just want to give you a chance to.

Guest 2 [01:11:25] No, I just, my heart just goes out to everybody involved. That's a very hard situation all around.

Rachel Wunderli [01:11:34] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:11:36] With what happened to him in the beginning to, I'm sure the devastation his wife felt to not being able to just be in a relationship with him openly and having that time with him. Yeah. You know, not being taken away from you and then him being taken away from you. You know, I feel sadness in all areas of that, so I just want to be with you in that for a moment.

Rachel Wunderli [01:12:10] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:12:11] And recognize that.

Rachel Wunderli [01:12:15] Yeah. No, thank you.

Guest 2 [01:12:16] It's very hard.

Rachel Wunderli [01:12:17] I, I, again, before we hit record, I was telling them I've never, I've never spoken about this publicly. So this is, I appreciate you guys for allowing the space for this and, but yeah, yeah, it's, it hasn't been, it hasn't been easy, and it's hard to, it's hard to come to terms with the things that I, myself and just us as individuals have in regards to holding each other accountable or yourself accountable for your decisions. Like, I, at the end of the day, have to realize that, yeah, a lot of bad things happen to me, but I also hurt people too, and that's really not okay, no matter what. And, and yeah, I, I, I just, I want people to, to know that, that it's just, it sucks. It's unfortunate.

Guest 2 [01:13:05] I do want to say, though, that I think it's beautiful that you offer the invitation for her to come and talk to you and maybe heal that part of her if she desires that.

Rachel Wunderli [01:13:17] So I think You're. Now if she ever sees that. I didn't feel comfortable reaching out. Just to, to clarify, I didn't never. I never reached out to her. I never felt comfortable reaching out after they kind of cut me off. But I will always be open to that. And I have talked to a couple people still in contact if they ever talk to her, you know.

Guest 2 [01:13:35] Yeah. Even if this is the first moment, I still think that's beautiful. Yeah. That you offered that.

Rachel Wunderli [01:13:41] Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:13:47] Well, um. So to talk about the deconstruction or the, the eventual identity as ex Christian, you can still have a devastating relationship with the church and retain a belief in God or even in Jesus and just like Swiss churches or become a stay a Christian, but just not have a church you go to. So. So tell us about what your process has been in terms of belief and your Christianity and your belief in God from. From then until now.

Losing Faith and Beginning Deconstruction

Rachel Wunderli [01:14:26] Yeah, I think for the first five months or so after he passed away, I was very much still praying because I was. It was more of pleading. I was pleading for anything to help me believe that he still existed, that there. That heaven was existing ex in existence, that I was going to be reunited with him or anybody that I love one day, all of a sudden, the, the. The eternal aspect of heaven came just right in my face. And I just couldn't ignore, I couldn't ignore like this, this need for knowing absolute truth in this regard. So I. So heaven was a huge topic that started my deconstruction. I started looking into Christian books that would go over heaven, Heaven from a biblical point of view. I tried to use that, those as comfort. And then it kind of got to a point where I was like, okay, all of these resources are really great and they have been incredibly helpful, but they are all Christian resources based off of the premise that the Bible is fully true and literal. Literal. So I then at that point didn't find comfort in my grief of resorting to Christian resources and stuff without going deeper and finding out, well, is what they're getting their information from to make this awesome heaven book sound nice? Is their information, biblically speaking, coming from things that are actually true. And that's when I started really just researching stuff from historians and resourcers that were not Christian just so that I could get a different point of view. And I had been told, I went into this thinking that I was totally going to find like a ton of proof and evidence because my pastors, my whole life, my whole process here had told me, like, there is so much evidence of this one thing, or there's so much proof of this one thing. And I never really questioned that. I was like, oh, you guys went to Bible school, you know, know. And what I have found to be the case in both Mormonism and Christianity when it comes to realms of deconstruction is that the evidence and proof that people like to use who are on the still believing side are very, are very tainted by, by resources that are specifically biased towards somebody who is religious who already believes in said things. So the resources that they're using to prove that their doctrine true is just other Christian resources that's built up by this bias of somebody who already has an in their head that this is just true. And so I'm like, well, in order to figure out if it's actually, actually true, I need to look at people whose faith systems aren't on the line, whose lives aren't on the line if they find out that this isn't true.

John Dehlin [01:17:30] You're saying it's motivated reasoning that Christians defend their beliefs through motivated reasons reasoning.

Rachel Wunderli [01:17:37] Yeah, yeah. And the things and resources that they provide to say, hey, this is evidence are not objective.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] They're not gathered. They're starting with objectivity and neutrality and then gathering evidence to then kind of sift and make an informed decision from a, from a beginning standpoint of openness and neutrality. Yeah, that's different than like what many apologists do, which is okay, okay, I'm a believer. So as I gather the evidence, I'm going to, I'm going to ignore anything that's troubling or disconfirming and I'm only going to glom onto the evidence that confirms what I already believe emotionally or intellectually.

Rachel Wunderli [01:18:19] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:19] And so it's kind of a stack deck from the beginning.

Guest 2 [01:18:22] Right?

John Dehlin [01:18:22] Is that what you're saying?

Rachel Wunderli [01:18:23] Yeah, totally. So I wanted to get a more broad perspective of all of it and look at atheist and secular historians who have looked into these things and people who would have reasons to, not people who would necessarily have reasons to go against the church because that, and that's its own bias to the opposite degree. I would just look into people who really had nothing to lose. And I was kind of going into, to this whole process also thinking for myself, I have nothing more to lose. I've lost the love of my life. I've lost the, my entire community. I've lost, lost my, my, I viewed them as family. So I'm very close with my biological family. But like I lost my family, I lost my career. I had no idea what I was going to do. And at this point I'm like, if I lose God too, that's the last thing I have left. All right? I'm just gonna, no one can prove God's existence or non existence, so I'm at least gonna figure out what I believe in the terms of religion and go from there. And it just ended up being the same thing that happened with Mormonism was it's just I looked into enough and, and it debunked enough to where I didn't really need to look into it further. I mean, I still now am looking into it a lot, but it's exhausting. It's just like, it just takes a lot of time and brain power and it's just exhausting to do constant research about like history and science and lining those things up with religion. But all of a sudden I was so desperate for needing like exact answers. I just wasn't going to let the feeling of the spirit fly anymore. It was just, I needed real tangible evidence and answers for things. And so far in my process I have yet to find really anything that would give me, that would give me like a basis, a base foundation for wanting to explore Christianity further. I still say to people who are Christian, I still say, say if you give me something that then leads me to believe that all of these things actually did happen, I'm here for it. I'm not against that. I'm not shut off to the idea just because I've been hurt now in these areas. If truth is going to reveal itself to me by like tangible, real hard evidence, then I will receive that and accept it and admit to being wrong. And right now I'm kind of in a space where, where when it comes to religion and the Bible, the Book of Mormon and all those things, majority of it from what I've researched, I don't believe to be true. And I am sitting in a space with God where I'm kind of like, I definitely don't believe in Christian God. I don't believe that God is like a man figure for starters. I think that it's like it or whatever it is, is genderless. And I don't know what, I don't know what force is out there, if any, but I hope that it's something that's centered on love and, and I'm just kind of holding on for dear life at the moment. Kind of in this process. I'm still very heavily in the process. I don't think I'm, I'm not out of the trenches yet with this process. But I'm just hoping so badly that after this, we can kind of see the world for what it was. And it was a great learning experience. And we are here to experience, like, my friend calls it a flesh sack. So gross. But we're here to experience the human body and things that apply to that. And I hope that our. That we continue on as. I don't know, after the. I just hope because at this point, I've lost so many people to death and now not believing in heaven necessarily, it's just not a peaceful feeling that I've landed on yet. It's hard. It's a hard reality to kind of like, come. Come to terms with. So I'm still exploring my relationship with, like, a higher power of some sort. I'd say I'm still a. I still live a prayerful life. I talk to something or someone. I don't know who's listening or if anybody's listening, But I think I'm to a point with spirituality where I can accept the fact that I'm never gonna know. And. And I hope that something's out there, and I hope that we continue on with the people that we love after we die in this life. And as far as religion goes, I'm gonna tap out of that, I think, in my life. But I still say I have some pastors who will come on to my page. And I love it. And I love. I'm always open for conversation. And if there was anybody who ever was, like, here's all of this unbiased information, like, here, like, that I'm gonna give you to prove that this is true. I will totally take it, receive it, read it. And if I improve to be wrong at the end of the day, that is totally fine with me.

Life After Religion and Advice on Suicidal Ideation

John Dehlin [01:23:21] Yeah. Who wants to lose their identity, their. Their sense of spirituality, their community, their friends, their sense of meaning and purpose? Like, who wants to lose all that?

Rachel Wunderli [01:23:32] Yeah. Yeah, It's. That's what I ask all the time. I'm just like, who? Who? Yes. We wanted to go through this jarring shock and pain. Like, yeah, I've been dying for this. I mean, if there was any time in my life that I would hold on to something that really wasn't there, it would be now. Because I'm so desperate to. To. To feel, you know, my ex's presence again or, like, anything. And I've had two people in my life past just in this past week, and I'm just kind of like, grief is just very. In my face right now. And so I'm face to face with death a lot. I have been in the last year, and I'm just, like, I would. Would buy into anything right now if. If. Like, if God's gonna reveal himself to me, it's gonna be now. Like, now is gonna be the moment that they're gonna show up and. And comfort me and show me truth. And right now, I just. I can't. Nothing's really happened. I'm kind of just. I'm. I'm just hoping that I come out of this season at least with a sense of peace and. And gratitude for my experience, but, like, peace and knowing that it's just. It's gonna be okay. Like, okay, that we still have purpose in this life, but I don't know what that purpose is right now. I've been told so long, my whole life that it's a very specific thing, and now I have found those things to not be accurate. So finding purpose, finding hope, finding joy, I'm having to. I am finding those things. It's just in totally different veins, and. And it's just a totally different experience. And it's difficult, but it's. It is also liberation at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] So I want to pursue that a little bit, but I want to go just back a tiny bit. You were really great off camera, you know, acknowledging how important Christianity was to you.

Rachel Wunderli [01:25:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] When you lost Mormonism and how happy it made you to the point where you said in this interview, your goal isn't to take that away from people. Your goal is not to take Christianity away from people. It's if Christianity is meaningful to them and is helping them correct.

Rachel Wunderli [01:25:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:44] That.

Rachel Wunderli [01:25:44] That's really my whole goal. And. And if. If people go onto my TikTok, you know, I do skits and make jokes about things that are specific to religion. And I think what. What people just need to understand is I'm poking fun at real situations that took place that are unfortunate situations, and I laugh through my pain. So that's just. Comedy is how I get through that. But I. I. He. I see people who are still believers upset at certain things that, I don't know, maybe people have done to make fun of church. And I would never want to make fun of somebody's faith. At the end of the day, I will make fun of myself and my own faith and my own process to whatever degree. But I really. I know for that I believed in everything I believed in wholeheartedly and would have died for all of that. And it genuinely brought me out of some serious suicidal ideation. And so for that I am, I'm grateful. And I just, I'm all for people having their own journeys. And if somebody would have told me when I left Mormonism all the bad things about Christianity, I don't know if I'd be alive right now, because I may have ended it, because Christianity, it's for a certain season, saved my life. So I never want to lead people away from wherever their own journey is taking them. But I, at the end of the day, I will joke about things, and hopefully my hope is through the, through the jokes and the skits that I throw out there that seemingly would be facetious or poking fun at religion. I hope that, like, what people receive is just okay. I don't want to be that, that type of Christian. Like, I don't want to be. Be the person who allows these types of things to happen. If pastors go onto my page, I hope they do because I, I don't want them to. To have these same things happen in their own congregation. So just being able to be humble and aware that these things do happen and that nobody is not susceptible to these things happening under their leadership, I think is important and, And, And a continual dialogue. Dialogue of understanding why people believe that the things that they believe, I think are really important. But, yeah, I mean, I, I explain my skits because I sit here and I say, and I genuinely mean it. I do not want to be disrespectful of anybody's beliefs, but I am healing from my own stuff and kind of deconstructing my own stuff. And unfortunately, by association, that could impact somebody else's journey. But I hope at the end of the day that the journey is only impacted in a positive way. And if I am poking fun at stuff, it is solely because I hope that those things don't continue to happen. And these things at the end of the day do happen. So it's like, are you upset that they happened, or are you upset that I'm making a joke about it type stuff? So, so

John Dehlin [01:28:46] in that spirit, that there might be so stipulating that neither of us are desiring to take people's faith away. I don't even think of Mormon stories as a. As motivated by a desire to take people's faith away. For me, it's about informed consent. It's about minimizing the harm. It's about letting people express their stories. It's about healing and growth in a transition. Having said, all that stipulating that neither of us are Looking to take people's faith away. For those who are wanting to sort of investigate Christianity or for those who would want to save you, Rachel, and say, hey, I've got answers for you. List off. You said you, you investigated some areas in Christianity that were probably problematic without, like giving details or like going deep. Can you enumerate some of the areas you studied that, that left you quite feeling like maybe the Bible or Christianity wasn't true?

Rachel Wunderli [01:29:50] Yeah. So like, if they're wanting to kind of go through the same process.

John Dehlin [01:29:53] Yeah. Or if they're wanting to save you.

Rachel Wunderli [01:29:56] Yeah, yeah. If they're wanting to say, okay, yeah, I would say for me that at the end of the day, every single sect of religion is going to interpret, interpret every single thing within the Bible differently. So I don't even go into things that, like Paul said or things about women in ministry or things like that. I don't care. All I care about is was Jesus Christ the son of God and did he actually die and do all the miracles that he performed and then was resurrected three days later? Because if Jesus was not murdered and resurrected three days later and did not perform the miracles he performed, like, if we cannot, if we can't figure that out, just Jesus alone, then the rest of the Bible to me doesn't even matter because the whole premise of the whole thing is Jesus. So for me, because the whole thing and the whole process of deconstruction can be so exhausting and confusing for people and hurt at the same time time, it's a painful journey. I would just say research historians that had accounts on Jesus Christ and see how much or how little you find in that regard, because that kind of what was the turning point for me, where I'm going? Okay, there was, there's, at least right now, not even close to as much there that I was told was there there without looking into it myself. And so then, and I'm not saying that a person, Jesus the Christ did not exist. I'm not saying like anything like that. But was Jesus Christ the Son of God and did he die on a cross and was he resurrected three days later? If, if that, if you can't h. Form a belief or a testimony around that alone, nothing else, including the Mormon Church. Church really matters because it's all based off of the premise that that did happen.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] And I think I saw this in a TikTok. There was that one Roman historian who, who seems to have written about a Jesus of Nazareth kind of character.

Rachel Wunderli [01:32:03] Yeah, there was a historian called Josephus. If you want to look up Josephus, who was really the only person who lived very, very close to the time period that Jesus was alive. So his parents would have existed when Jesus Christ was walking the the earth. And he was not like a believer, obviously, he was secular. So Christians like to use Josephus as their reasoning for like, look at this atheist, secular historian who claims to have accounts of Jesus. Well, when you actually look into the articles that Josephus wrote, it has nothing to do with anything that Jesus actually did, who he was, nothing about his life, life or death. And you would think that at least the death would be in there somewhere because that would have been a significant moment in history for that time period and where they were living. He. Yeah, everything that he said that now seemingly appears Christian was interpolated by, by Christians and Catholics later. So when you look at his original text and he was born I think like just a few years after Jesus the Christ was allegedly crucified, he should have a lot more to say on the subject because he had a lot to say about other subjects. And that was just kind of me scratching the surface of it. And then I had to take a break after that to get my mind just like a break. So I'm not sitting here saying I've done all the research, listen to what I have to say because I know that this did happen or this didn't happen. I'm just saying that all I had to do was kind of go under the surface just slightly to find out that a lot of it wasn't actually didn't really exist. A lot of the evidence that I was told was there, wasn't there.

John Dehlin [01:33:53] And then I, I just went. I attended a, like a youth study group kind of thing at a Christian church recently. And what they'll say is, well, there's all the, the Gospels and all the apostles and all the writings. That's all evidence that Jesus existed. Existed. There's the women who, who were at the tomb and they testified like for them that's hard evidence that Jesus existed and died and that the body wasn't there and that they resurrected. They say that everything that even if it's the scrolls that make up the Bible that were, that were basically assembled to make the Bible, they're all based on eyewitness testimony that, that they feel is, is, is rock solid.

Rachel Wunderli [01:34:37] Yep, they definitely feel that it's rock solid. And I thought that same thing until I just looked into it like a little bit and all the people that would have had to testify and second, these witnesses, I haven't found much there to back any of that up. And for, for an event so significant, you would think that there would be, there would be more there than what then, then things that we do have from that time period, just history, you'd think we'd just hear more about this, this Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:35:10] Like contemporary secular accounts, you're saying? Yes. Okay.

Rachel Wunderli [01:35:14] Yeah, yeah. Because nobody had any reason to, to not write down things about him. They would have. No, that would be the coolest. Especially this Josephus guy. He's interesting because he was writing down anything about everything from that time period. He would have, I would imagine, grab hold of a story like that, of a person like that and the interpolation would, would come into play where he, they would make it seem like he phrased things as Jesus was the Messiah. He would have not spoken like that because of who he was as a Jew. He would have not said things like that. He would have said these people thought of him as a Messiah. But here's what he actually did or didn't do is how it would have been phrased. So there's so much there in regards to what Christians view as accounts or eyewitnesses or factual evidence as to, as to things in the Bible. And I'm just like, I would just challenge everyone to look into their belief of the Bible. Not using the Bible itself as evidence, not using the Bible itself as proof. Because you have to look outside of that in order to, to, in order to bring it all together. You've got to look at both, you got to look at both sides. You can't just hear what Christians think happened.

John Dehlin [01:36:37] We've also been covering, you know, things like Adam and Eve and Noah and the ark and the global flood and Tower of Babel. We've been covering some of those more science related issues as they relate to the Bible. Have you, I guess you're saying if Jesus, if you don't have good evidence for Jesus, none of the other stuff matters?

Rachel Wunderli [01:36:59] Yeah, I mean in regards to my belief in Christianity at large, all I need to do for myself is kind of like debunk Jesus in order for me to not really care to look into anything else. But, but I, but I definitely, I mean, I thought that stories in the Old Testament were literal for a very long, long time. And now coming to find out that majority, if not all, and I, I only say this with speculation because I'm not sure I have not looked into all of it yet. But now finding out that a lot of it is not literal is just like, to me, like what Else. What else is not. What else have I been taking literal. That's not actually literal. And Christians go so far as to making a statement that somebody has said that Jesus. Jesus has said. And taking like, a comma that's inserted into that sentence as like a. This means something. Because of this comma, like, they'll get so deeply embedded into just the way a sentence was structured. And I'm like, dudes, we've got multiple languages, multiple years of translations here, multiple things that this is coming from. Like, you cannot base. I would suggest I'm not going to tell people what they can do or what they can't do, but I would suggest not basing your literal belief on something due to the way, like, one sentence is structured versus something else. It's just all the things that I was told were proof and evidence, I'm now realizing were definitely specific to just what Christians just kind of assumed in their own. In their own club. And it never went outside of that. That.

John Dehlin [01:38:40] What about the idea of the witnesses that you received, that your life was transformed, that you had these powerful emotional, some would say spiritual, moving experiences? A lot of Christians would say that's. That's the. All the evidence you really should want or need is those spiritual experiences.

Rachel Wunderli [01:38:59] Now diving into the spiritual world. I would say if people are worried about losing that, you can find that outside of religion.

John Dehlin [01:39:05] No, no, I'm saying that. What if they're saying that that's. That was your evidence. You.

Rachel Wunderli [01:39:10] Oh, that was the evidence.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] That was your evidence.

Rachel Wunderli [01:39:12] Oh, then I would just say that I have had that same experience since leaving religion, and now I just know how to explain it more. Like, I know. I know the science be. I know more of the science behind, like, energy and consciousness and things like that that I'm more looking into to help better explain why these things might be happening, why we can operate. I would have used me and my partner at work. I would have used our ability to ebb and flow in a worship set without even looking at each other. We just knew where we were going to go in a spontaneous moment. I would have equated that to a spiritual experience. And now I'm just going, nope. We just really studied our church congregation. We studied their responses to things. We knew what was going to land and what wasn't. We knew what our pastor's behavior was, whether he was kind of itching for more, needing us to pull, pull back. And we knew how to create moments that would provide an emotional experience for people. And. And like, we. We did that. And we just had practice enough to be able to predict what the other person was gonna do at certain points without actually planning it. And I've been reading some books lately where the same thing and realms of, like, how the Navy Seals operate is very similar to how worship leaders operate, which is funny. It's just kind of like. Like this shared conscious of and mixed with practice, then put into a situation where you're kind of forced to just go and see what. See what happens. And so, yeah, it's just been. It's just been really liberating to be able to actually find explanations for what those spiritual experiences were. And it doesn't really necessarily take the power away from the spiritual experience. To me, I just wouldn't call it a spiritual experience now. I would just call it. I would just. I don't know what I would call it. There's no name for it, but there is reasoning as to why these things can happen and still happen.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] So it's the interpretation of the feeling. Whereas a Mormon or. Or a evangelical Christian might have those feelings and say that means that this is the Holy Ghost bearing witness to me that it's true. True. You're saying for you now, those are just emotions that you feel that you can get in nature, you can get with psilocybin, you can get with other things, and you're just interpreting them in a different way now.

Rachel Wunderli [01:41:41] Yes, I'm interpreting them in a different way. And also a way that in my opinion makes so much more sense. Whereas before it was just, it's a spiritual experience. There was no other further explanation. And now I need an explanation for those things. And being able to find one and have it actually make sense is liberating to me. It's like, that's freedom right there.

John Dehlin [01:42:03] Right? Okay, last question. Or one of. One of my last questions as we kind of start reaching towards the end. Like, there have been points in your life where you were suicidal and religion has played, whether it's the Mormon Church, where when you found your return missionary and kind of came back after you'd hit rock bottom that first time.

Guest 2 [01:42:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:30] Or after your divorce, you hit rock bottom again. Christianity, like we talked about, this huge void that religion fills. Now you are facing life without religion being available to fill that void. And it's been. Been pretty stark, it's been pretty dark, it's been pretty scary for you in the past when you've reached a low point. How are you feeling now? Knowing that a religion probably won't be emerging if you get really low again. Does that make sense?

Rachel Wunderli [01:43:12] Yeah, there's, there's only. There's two things that have been really vital in keeping my suicidal ideation above float and not kind of going down that path since losing religion. And one of them has been the fact that I think I was suicidal for, for periods of time because I'm going off of the assumption that I'm going to live till I'm 95. Now with this last year, having faced death head on multiple times, and all young people in my life and all surprising situations, I'm like, now realizing, realizing that we're all knocking on death's door and we have no idea when we could just walk out our door and be, you know, hit by a car, struck by lightning or something like that. And, and it kind of eases the suicidal, suicidal ideation going. I, maybe I won't live till I'm 95, so stop thinking that. Stop assuming that I'm gonna live till I'm super old and start living. Like, not to be cheesy, like, live like you were dying. But I feel like people say, like, oh, I can't live like I'm dying because I can't. I can't give up my job and just go out, go on vacation for the rest of my life. And that's how people view living like you were dying. And I'll say, like, live like you're dying. Not in that sense, but in the sense of what, what, what are your conversations with people? Like, what is your, Are you constantly judging people? Are you constantly giving people grace? If you died tomorrow, would the last conversation you had with somebody be something that left them with something good and positive and encouraging? Or would it be something that was ugly and judgmental and rude and unnecessary, like, what are you leaving people with? So I think about that. I think about the fact that at any point we could die. And I did not realize that I was very lucky in the realms of grief before this last year. And now I've just been hit, like, so much to where I'm going. Oh, if I'm gonna die tomorrow, then I'm at least gonna make sure that the people in my life right now know how much I love them and kind of spend all my time focused on that. So that's, that's one part of it, and then I'm trying to remember the other part. I mean, oh, okay, yeah, here's the second part. Growing up in religion, I've been taught my whole life that life's a test. Like, to a certain degree, life's a Test like you have to earn certain things and you have to, to be worthy of certain things and you have to follow all of these rules. And since leaving religion, I've been given the gift of now believing that life is a gift, not a test. Like, so my whole life when I've been thinking, I, I'm not, I'm not reaching this, this, this platform of worthiness, this pedestal of worthiness, I'm always falling short. Instead of feeling like that now I'm just like, no, I'm just a human being being who's trying my best to be the best person that I can be. And I've made mistakes and will continue to make mistakes. And I'm not going to put that in this category of sin that needs all of these things to happen after in order for me to be forgiven. It's just like we are all human beings, we all make mistakes, we all hurt people, and we're all going to get hurt. And at the end of the day, this might be. None of us know if this is our only experience here on, on earth. And if it is, I don't want to look back going, I ended it early and this is my only time that I'm gonna experience this. Even though it sucks right now, like it really sucks and there's no way around that. And it's painful and it hurts. And I'm annoyed that people like him and, and people, other people I've lost get to leave and like not deal with the aftermath of, of all of this. And I think that. And then at the same time I go, maybe they're somewhere going, dang it, like, I missed out on my one opportunity experiencing like being a human being. We don't know what's going to happen. Like none of us know what's going to happen for certain. And I think that used to be a daunting thought for me and now it's provided more peace because I'm just going to then go off of the assumption that this is our only shot. This is our only shot. Not in the way of like, this is a big test and like, get it right, but this is our only shot. And like, like, do you want to look back on your life thinking that your whole life was centered on Western American society and it's very career and success based and you don't experience love and connection with people? Or is it going to be centered on love and connection and empathy and things that I would assume you could take with you maybe after we die, But I know for certain that we can't take like superficial things. So it kind of puts my, my, my perspective of life into a different shift where I'm going, like what actually matters at the end of the day, what actually matters and, and who, what do I need to stop thinking that's only providing cynicism in my life and negativity. How do I just get rid of that? Because I probably won't die when I'm 95. Like maybe I do go out earlier from something that I can't control and I do not want, want my last moments to be that. I didn't live this life as if it was a gift. And I don't want to be on the other side assuming that there is one looking at this life going, oh my gosh, I ended it early and this was such a temporary moment in time. And if I would have just been able to gain this eternal perspective there, I would have done this, that the other. I'm just going to now start doing that, this, that or the other.

John Dehlin [01:48:53] So what do you live for now?

Rachel Wunderli [01:48:56] I would say that I live for. I don't ever want people to feel the degree of pain that I have felt. And I know that's not con, that's out of my control. But I will for the rest of my life do whatever I can to try to help people and prevent people from pain. Feeling pain of like isolation and, and loneliness. I just want people to feel heard. I live for empathy and compassion really out of like two things and that's like such a broad brush. But I literally live for empathy and compassion because I see so many times in just day to day conversations of people not able to see a different side than their own. And I've seen that cause so much destruction and harm, harm. So if I can just be a bridge that helps people have a conversation and helps people be able to give others the benefit of the doubt, especially regarding experiences that they have and will never walk through. That to me is vital. And I don't know what that looks like right now, but I know that that's how I've been my whole life. It's just kind of formed into something spiritually different now to where I'm like, if I can make some somebody feel love to a deep universal degree, then I've done, I've done my part for that day and that's really all I care about. Like I really do not want to care about things that don't matter after this. Assuming we continue on after this and that don't matter. If I were to Die tomorrow. I just don't want those things a part of my life anymore. So.

John Dehlin [01:50:41] So, so empathy and compassion.

Rachel Wunderli [01:50:43] Yeah, yeah, empathy and compassion.

John Dehlin [01:50:46] And then just to end, because I know you're most passionate about this. If somebody is experiencing suicidal ideation, if somebody is feeling like they're not sure they want to continue, what are some tips and then some resources you would, you would give them

Rachel Wunderli [01:51:05] a tip just in the moment that you're really at your last past wit's end and you can't bring yourself to call anyone. I would say at least get outside into an environment that will immediately change your physical perspective. Because if we can change our physical perspective, our mental perspective kind of goes with that. So even if you're just sitting in your apartment room and you can go outside to the main court area, do it. That's just kind of like a Hail Mary option. Everybody who struggles with suicidal ideation, I feel like, knows this, that it's. They know that it's. It's not going to be to the degree of horrific that it is right in that moment forever. They might always deal with depression in that season, but it's. If you can just get to the next day. I always tell myself, even now, just get to the next day, because this, this day kind of sucks right now, and that's fine, sit in the sucks. But the next day always is always a reset. Every situation is so different and so fragile. So when it comes to giving advice and resources, I've never been a blanket statement person for any of that. Just because it's always in my experience been so specific to the age that I'm dealing with or the circumstance that I'm dealing with, the degree of severity that I'm dealing with with it. But I have a ton of resources that I could send people. So if they, On a practical note, if they want to email me and I can send them pages of resources,

John Dehlin [01:52:44] are there websites or books or.

Rachel Wunderli [01:52:48] I have not. I have not found. I have read many and I have not found a single thing to be like, this is the one bible of the suicidal ideation that I would recommend. And I'm honestly thinking I might have to write it because I don't find anything out there.

John Dehlin [01:53:04] What about hotlines?

Rachel Wunderli [01:53:06] Hotlines? Yeah, I mean, hotlines work. Hotlines work. If you're wanting to just talk to somebody who's going to be able to help you. The problem with, there's just. There's. There's negatives to that too. There's pros and cons to hotlines. There's pros and cons to treatment centers. There's pros and cons to getting checked into uni or any situation like, like that. I think that there's, it depends on the person. It's just very, it's very circumstantial. But yeah, I don't have anything that I would basically claim to be bible in regards to this will help you get through this season.

John Dehlin [01:53:41] Like a one size fit all kind of thing.

Rachel Wunderli [01:53:42] Yeah. But I have a list of options under categories depending on the level of severity you're struggling with that I can definitely send out.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] So how do people reach you?

Rachel Wunderli [01:53:54] You can email me at.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] We'll put this in the show notes.

Rachel Wunderli [01:53:57] Okay, cool. NY wonder gmail.com we can do that one.

John Dehlin [01:54:01] N y wonder w w n yeah. W n y w u n dash

Rachel Wunderli [01:54:08] r@gmail gmail.com that's the one I have attached to most things for now. If you're on my social media, I usually connect with a ton of people. People through, through there Instagram. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:54:21] What are your handles?

Rachel Wunderli [01:54:22] My Instagram is. Both of them are Rachel R A C H E L Wonder W N D E R that's both of them. Tik Tok and Instagram. I know that it doesn't let you direct message people on Tik Tok, so I usually tell people to just either email me directly or go to my Instagram and DM me there and then I can usually get you in contact with other professionals depending on what the, what the circumstance is or what, what type of help they're needing.

John Dehlin [01:54:49] But yeah. Beautiful.

Rachel Wunderli [01:54:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:52] Well, I can't thank you enough, Rachel, for your willingness, your honesty, your courage and your willingness to tell your story. This is not, I, I didn't know a lot of this about your story before. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I'm thrilled and I'm really grateful for it. But I, I. This is not easy stuff to be sharing. Although there's something beautiful about transparency. But I'm really grateful for your honesty, your advocacy and your willingness to share something so painful and hard and for your encouragement for others to hang on. I really appreciate that.

Rachel Wunderli [01:55:30] Yeah, yeah, anytime. No, it's been, it's hard, it's hard to, to share all this, guys. I won't lie. But, but this was really great and I on I value vulnerability and transparency so much. I really think as human beings, from human to human, that's all we got really at the end of the day is being able to be human with each other. So thank you for giving me the platform to do that. And, yeah, this was fun.

John Dehlin [01:55:58] All right. Thanks, Rachel.

Rachel Wunderli [01:55:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] Thank you. How do you feel?

Guest 2 [01:56:02] I feel great. I love the line that you said that you said, life is a gift, not a test. And so I thought that that was beautiful. And I'm super excited for your music to come out. So let me know when that happens.

Rachel Wunderli [01:56:15] Yes, me too. That's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:56:20] All right, Rachel, well, keep up the good work. We'll see on TikTok and Instagram and everywhere else, and we can't wait to see what good things are in store. And please stay in touch if we can ever help help you in your efforts to help others. We'll do all we can.

Rachel Wunderli [01:56:36] Yeah. Thank you, guys. Thanks so much.

John Dehlin [01:56:38] All right. Thanks, Rachel. Thanks, Jen.

Rachel Wunderli [01:56:40] Yeah,

Guest 2 [01:56:43] thanks, everyone.

John Dehlin [01:56:44] All right. All right, everyone. You guys take care. Hope you've enjoyed today. Appreciate all the support. Email us with your feedback@mormonstoriesgmail.com donate to support us. If you can become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org org you just click on the donate button. And most importantly, be kind to each other, take care of yourself, be good to each other, and we'll see each other soon again on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

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