Introduction and Guest Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 445a

Neylan McBaine [00:00:00] You say either, I say either. You say neither, and I say neither. Either, either, and either or neither. Let's call the whole thing off.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] Hello, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and today you're joining us for part three of a very important series on Mormon Stories, which is about, I guess, generally Mormon feminism or women and women's concerns within Mormonism. And more specifically, it's a discussion about the Ordained Women initiative or project or movement. Those of you who joined us previously would have heard a podcast where we had four women from the Ordain Women Project discussion their experiences on October 5th, when several women, along with allies, requested entrance into the priesthood session of General Conference on October 5th. And we talked

John Dehlin [00:01:10] about that at some length and about varying perspectives regarding not only that project, that initiative, but also the ordination of women and equality for women within the church, etc. And I should note that Heather Osambiel, who is joining us today, was on that original panel. Heather, who are the other panelists?

Heather Olson Beal [00:01:36] Remind our listeners Anne Marie Whitaker, Laurie Winder Stromberg, and Tanisha Zamdomela.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] That's right. And they were all awesome. And Heather, we appreciate you joining us for this episode.

Heather Olson Beal [00:01:51] All right, glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And then we had a part two where we had several thoughtful, wonderful women, just like in the first episode, who shared alternative perspectives where they talked about how they they still have very strong feelings and opinions about the women in the church. And I'm guessing that some or all of them would characterize themselves as feminists. But we had Neylan McBain, who is joining us today, and Neylan, who are the other panelists on that episode?

Neylan McBaine [00:02:25] We had Fiona Givens, Margaret Blair Young, and Maxine Hanks.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] That is right. So thanks for joining us, Neylan.

Neylan McBaine [00:02:33] Certainly my pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] I'll just jump in and say that Heather Olsen Beale, also just in her day job, is a professor of education at Stephen F. Austin State University and in Nacogdoches, Texas. And Heather joins us on Mormon Stories regularly for the Mormon Stories Book Club. So again, Heather, thanks for joining us. Thank you. And Neylan is the founder of MormonWomen.com or the Mormon Women Project, where she has put up, would you say, written histories of various women to share diverse experiences of Mormon women. How would you summarize your project?

Neylan McBaine [00:03:16] Yeah, that's a lovely way to do it. What we say is continuously expanding digital library of interviews with LDS women from around the world.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] Excellent. So again, thanks for joining us, Neylan. And we have two Additional participants in today's discussion, we have Kate Kelly. She is an international human rights attorney living in the D.C. metroplex area. She's also the founder of the Ordained Women Initiative and she's also fantastic. Kate, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Kate Kelly [00:03:54] Hi, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Finally, we have someone who has never appeared in any way, shape or form on Mormon Stories podcast before. Her name is Sarah Vrains. And Sarah created a website around the same time that Ordained Women was created called MormonFeminist.org so I'm guessing, Sarah, that you do self identify as a feminist.

Sara Vraneš [00:04:20] I do, and I didn't create the website. I was just part of the launching of the website. Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] But your face is there right on the front page.

Sara Vraneš [00:04:29] It's right right there in the middle. Yep, yep.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] And Sarah is also a political activist and she is a midwife. And I'm guessing that those things inform to some degree your participation. Now, really quickly, before we jump into this discussion, Sarah, our listening audience probably knows the least about you, so why don't you just take a minute and share with us a little bit about your background and perspective as it relates to why you feel passionately about these issues and why you'd want to participate on a podcast about it.

Why These Women Care About Ordination

Sara Vraneš [00:05:03] Definitely, yes. As you mentioned, I am a self identified feminist. I am an active member of the LDS Church and I am a midwife as well. And I think the combination of all of those together really adds to how I feel about the status of women in the church. And as I explained earlier to the panelists, I am not 100% on board with the Ordaine Women movement as we see on ordainewomen.org but I do think there needs to be some changes in our, in our culture and the structure of our church and especially the treatment of women overall.

Sara Vraneš [00:05:48] And I also, I don't think we hear a lot about how motherhood, you know, is equal with priesthood in the church. That's the conversation I've been hearing over the last several years. And I think that that's not true either. And so we really, I do love the discussion that we're having that's been going on, especially the last, you know, six or seven months about women in the priesthood. And it is a conversation that is needed.

Sara Vraneš [00:06:13] And that's, you know, my, that's where my passion lies with that, with women and the church and then particularly with this female realm that I see in midwifery.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] So I hear you. Did I just hear you say that? Even though you may not agree with everything about Ordain Women, you believe that it's been an important influence and that it's helped generate discussion about some important topics related to women that you feel need discussion. Is that right?

Sara Vraneš [00:06:42] Definitely, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Okay. And I think that came out in episode two. Nylin, is there a part of you that feels that way as well, or.

Neylan McBaine [00:06:50] Yeah. I mean, I've stated publicly my gratitude for the Ordaine Women movement in bringing to light some of the tensions that I feel are very real. And I feel like a movement like Ordained Women helps move along even more moderate causes, and so we are definitely indebted to them for that. Although you did ask at the end of the last podcast or Part one podcast, is there a risk that Ordained Women is actually setting our movement back? And I do think that that's an interesting point of discussion because we are working in a very unique context where, you know, the traditional means of advocacy don't always have the same effect that they do out in the world. So I guess that's my response. It's sort of a bifurcated response.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Okay, well, I will make sure that we talk about that a little bit. But, Sarah, thank you for joining us on. On Mormon Stories.

Sara Vraneš [00:07:51] Yeah, you're welcome. My pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] Nice to have you. Okay, so, you know, Heather had a really good idea, which was that we begin by talking about areas where we agree. And so, you know, it's no secret that Neylan and Sarah kind of represent sympathies with parts of ordained women, but they don't necessarily support the project overall, whereas Heather and Kate sort of represent the project, even though one thing that I've learned over the past few weeks is that it's completely erroneous to assume that everyone in the Ordained women camp agrees on everything. So that's something that I understand that there are as many points of view about women in Mormonism as there are women in Mormonism. Is that a fair place to start?

Kate Kelly [00:08:40] It's very accurate, yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] Okay, I hear Maxine thanking me for saying that. So, so, so, so with that, I. I think it would be really positive and good to begin by having each of you express kind of where some sentiments that you believe all of you would agree on. Okay, so I'm going to ask you guys to self regulate what you want to mention and what you think would be appropriate. But I guess I'll start with Nilan and say, Neylan, what are some sentiments or feelings or thoughts or issues where you feel like you're probably pretty much in full harmony with the other women? On this panel?

Neylan McBaine [00:09:22] Well, I would start with the personal experiences that each one of us has had that have brought us to this point. You know, for me, those experiences have included a lot of heartache where I've seen women in the church struggle.

Neylan McBaine [00:09:40] I've had questions from my own young daughters. I've had questions from family members, and I've had experiences where those questions produce great, great sadness and pain. And they also produce increased testimonies and increased empowerment. And so I think one of the things that brings us all here is this shared desire to make sure that we can stem the tide of women feeling discomfort at church. And we go about that, the solution to that, in probably different ways. But I think it's important to recognize from the start that what brings us here is an empathy and a concern for women who may not be able to feel completely at home in the church structure.

Neylan McBaine [00:10:27] I think one of the things, intellectually that's fascinating to me that brings me to this point is the idea that you can have, you know, you say that there are many, as many different types of Mormon feminism as there are Mormon women. But one of the most interesting things is that you have Mormon women who say, I am a feminist in spite of being a member of the church, and you have Mormon women who say, I'm a Mormon feminist because I am a member of the church. And for me, that's fascinating because I can't think of really anything else in the world that produces any sort of ideology that produces such polarized reactions from the same points of theory.

Neylan McBaine [00:11:10] And so, for me, as an intellectual exercise, the emotions aside, I'm fascinated by that. Like, how can our doctrine and our ideology produce completely polar opposite results in large handfuls of women?

John Dehlin [00:11:27] Very nice. Okay, Kate, how about you go next?

Kate Kelly [00:11:32] I think it's always a good idea to start building on common beliefs as a returned missionary. And so I think Neylan is right. I think something that brings us all to this podcast and something that brings us all to this place is our lived experience in the church.

Kate Kelly [00:11:57] And that lived experience, I've heard from almost all women who, Mormon women who identify as feminists, that lived experience has left them with pain and sorrow. And that lived experience has taught them that what exists currently is lacking, whether that's in the structure of the church or whether that's in the carrying out of the day to day. And so I think that's true. I think that's what brings us together. And I think we have different ideas about how to change that lived experience and how to make the church a more inclusive, welcoming place. And I think what Sarah's doing with Mormon Feminist, the Mormon Feminist website, and what Nayland is doing, what Nyland is doing with the Mormonwomen.com and they.

Kate Kelly [00:12:58] They. They featured me on their site, and so many amazing voices of Mormon women. I think they do amazing work, and I think we're all coming at this from a place where we want women to be included, and we want the smart, bright, amazing women that we know not to leave us.

Kate Kelly [00:13:21] We want them to be a part of the body of the church. And so I think that's a place where we all come from.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] Great. All right, Sarah, your turn.

Sara Vraneš [00:13:33] Yeah, well, building upon what's been said already, I mean, I agree with them and that women, we do need to be more or feel more included in the church structure. And I would love to see women being more, you know, full participants at church and being more visible. I feel like it's very easy. You know, you look up at the stand and there is predominantly men in front of you, except maybe a female chorister. And I would love to see more female participation at church, and I think maybe that's something that we all agree on on this panel. I would imagine. So. Just having just the female realm being tapped into more, and especially then also focusing more on the Relief Society, that's something that I think we have such a rich history and in our Mormon history for women, and we need to tap into that more as well.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Excellent. All right, Heather, bring us home.

Heather Olson Beal [00:14:35] Okay, so we're on points of agreement here.

Kate Kelly [00:14:39] Okay.

Heather Olson Beal [00:14:40] I would say that the biggest thing, in my opinion, is our love of and investment in the church. And I'll just say, in case anyone's like, wow, what's Heather saying? Because I know that I've been very, very critical, so I'm not trying to pivot away from that. But I'll say that my criticism comes from a very sincere place. It comes from someone who feels deeply invested in Mormonism.

Heather Olson Beal [00:15:15] So, you know, I've kind of tried to make the analogy before and say, well, I'm a huge public school advocate, too, but that doesn't mean that I think that the public school system is a bever. I feel like I love the church enough that some of these things that caused me some real stress and anger, whatever you want to call it, that's worth talking about these things publicly. A lot of things are taboo. I mean, you know, a year ago, many people, many women, I would say Mormon women that I know would not have said the word you know, female ordination allowed, you know, in the hallway church or over the dinner table.

Heather Olson Beal [00:15:52] So, you know, there's obviously a lot of taboos that are there. But I would just say, judging from what I know from everybody that's here, that we're people who love the church and want it to grow and want for more people to have more good experiences. That's what I would say anyway.

Is This a Radical Minority or Mainstream Concern?

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Excellent. Okay, I'm going to throw out my own curveball question just because it's. Sometimes they come to me. You ladies will know this statistic probably better than I will, but there was some statistic thrown around where they asked men and women in the church, you know, who was for it, against ordination. And I may be slaughtering this, but what my memory is is that somewhere like 50, 55% of the men, you know, were either for or against ordination. That it was almost like half and half, but that in terms of women, it was like 90% of the women were against it. Now, feel free to correct me if I've got the stats wrong, but the question behind this is, are you guys.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] Are you ladies, even though you're all three having different viewpoints, are all of you sort of radical minorities within the church? I guess another simple way to say that is, what's the percentage of either Malcolm discontented women in the church and. Or what's the percentage of, let's just say, feminist women either in, you know, the Western church or in the global church at all? But are you just some sort of fringe minority, even though there's differences between you? And how would you respond to that? So it's a tough question, but I just. I feel like I want to ask it.

Neylan McBaine [00:17:35] Well, John, if I could. If I could start, I think, you know, I don't think I would be in the minority, not because I don't want to participate more fully in church structure, but because I don't think. My opinion is that I don't think ordination tomorrow would solve the underlying behavioral and community issues that sometimes infiltrate our practice and thus make women feel ostracized, even with.

Neylan McBaine [00:18:05] And sort of go ahead on authority to administer ordinances and blessings. So there's that. So I actually, I don't think it would change much. And I also would probably be in the majority of women in that answer because I believe that the.

Neylan McBaine [00:18:27] I have been ordained. I believe I've been ordained in the temple with the power to act in God's name. And for me, you know, this is probably something that we'll want to talk about in more detail later. But for me, you know, the priesthood is two very separate things. It's the power to act in God's name and it's the division of labor that's responsible for administering the church. And so for me, I think when you say, do you want to be ordained? My answer would be not. Would be no. Not because I don't want to participate more fully, but no, because I believe that it's there.

Neylan McBaine [00:19:04] I believe that it is not being acted upon in our culture and our practices. But doctrinally, I do believe it's there. So, you know, just to give a more nuanced and perhaps sophisticated voice to those overwhelming majority who did say no to that question, that that would be my response.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] And you've given us some very good jumping off points, I think, for maybe the meat of the conversation. But I just want to, I want to ask this question again. Would it be unfair to characterize 80 to 90% of Mormon women is just, they're fine with things. They just, they're okay. They're like my mom and my sister. They, they don't think about feminism, they don't think about inequality. They're just happy to be mothers. They're happy to do what they do, relieve society. Primary young women's, whatever it is. They're busy raising the children with their spouse. They're single moms, they're single women who don't have children. But they're thinking about all sorts of things, but not about gender inequality and feminist type things. Is there any truth or fairness in that possible assertion that all four of you are in kind of the radical minority in the church?

Kate Kelly [00:20:23] John, can I jump in real quick? This is Kate. I think the study that you're talking about is a Pew research study that came out in January of 2012 and it cited a lot. So I did want to specifically talk about the statistics.

Kate Kelly [00:20:42] I think the statistics are skewed for several reasons. One is that that study came out before ordained women came into exist and the movement hadn't begun. I think everyone on the podcast has acknowledged that already in women, has opened up the conversation in a really new and open, kind of broke it open in a new way. And so the statistic you're citing predates that. Also, the question that was asked was very specific. So let me ask the question so people can know how people answered it. It said, should women who are dedicated members of the LDS Church be ordained to the priesthood?

Kate Kelly [00:21:23] And so to me, I think that question is highly problematic and also reflects people who are not LDs who are asking the question for several reasons. So I think that question sort of, it plays into the people who are, you know, quote unquote, dedicated members of the church. Should they be ordained? No, because that's not permitted currently. So I think that sort of plays into that.

Kate Kelly [00:21:48] The way that people might have answered that question would be like, no active, dedicated members of the church shouldn't be ordained because they aren't. That's not currently how it works. Men are ordained. So I think that question was particularly skewed. But I also think that the question should be asked one year after ordaining women exists. And now that it's not as taboo as it was now that people know that they can publicly support ordination and still find support in the church, that they won't be punished or specifically targeted for any sort of discipline by the church, think the conversation has changed a lot. So I think it's just important to look at that in the context of the survey that you're citing when it specifically comes to women's ordination.

Kate Kelly [00:22:31] But I think that a lot of women haven't necessarily considered ordination because it is such a brand new conversation before. Margaret Chaskano, who's a part of Ordained Women, said before our launch on March 17th of this year, she could have counted on her fingers the people who would support publicly women's ordination. And that is, you know, 170 on our site, thousands of people who have participated, people who came out to the action. The conversation is really opening up in a new way. And so I think just because people haven't necessarily considered it, I just, I think that it's, the conversation is very new. So those numbers don't reflect the actual numbers of people in support specifically of ordination.

Kate Kelly [00:23:19] But secondarily I think, yeah, my sister in law is a good example. She said to me, you know, this just isn't. I've thought about it a lot and because I'm related to you, I've kind of been forced to. People have been asking me about it. You know, you know her, you're related to her.

Kate Kelly [00:23:36] And so she's really had to grapple with things. And she said, you know, I've thought about it and I disagree. You know, I don't think that I want to be ordained. And she gave her reasons and I think that's every bit as valid. I just think that everyone should, should grapple with the question and think about it. And I, that's why I really value conversations like these. So yeah, I think there are women who for very good reasons don't desire or want to be ordained. And I think they have valid opinions, but I don't. I honestly don't think that's the majority, and I honestly don't think that's going to be the majority going forward as the conversation matures. And we can talk more about that.

Sara Vraneš [00:24:22] Well, and going along with that, too, Kate, I'm also remembering last conference. So around the time that the Ordained Woman site was launched, too, that's when women prayed in General conference for the first time in, what was it, 30, 40 years or something? And I was surprised that not. I mean, I talked to so many women and men who'd never noticed that there weren't women praying. And so it is. And that in conjunction with the launch of Ordained Women, that really got the conversation started about the structure and about the participation of women in the church. And so. But there's a lot of people that just have not thought about it, about the participation of women in the church culture. So the conversation is starting, and I think now, yeah, you're right. If we did that pew study now, it would be a lot different.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] But that's interesting because, I mean, if I. This is anecdotal, but if I walk around my Logan, Utah, community and go to the active women in my community and say, hey, are you a feminist? They're going to say no. And I'd say, that's 98% of the active women in my ward. And if I say, have you heard about ordained women? They're gonna say, maybe, but those people are crazy. And I don't think about that stuff. And they're radicals. And, you know, this isn't the Lord's approved way. And I'm just wondering whether we're still. We think that what we're doing is really important, but the truth is the women in the church are marching on, not paying a lot of attention to us. Do any of you ever feel that way, or is that.

Neylan McBaine [00:26:01] You know, I don't think that. I mean, to Kate's point, I don't think for this generation, at least, it's possible to close the door on that conversation, since it's been thrown so wide open. However, I do think that one thing that we who participate in this conversation are never going to be able to escape is the word feminist. I think even women of our generation who may use it liberally in a school or work environment are very wary of using it in a church environment.

The Word Feminist in Mormon Culture

Neylan McBaine [00:26:35] And there was a wonderful presentation by Joss Whedon. I don't know if anybody saw it recently about the word feminist and about what a problematic word it is, even just from a rhetorical point of view. And I think that I just wish that we could come up with a solution for that. I've attempted. I've had a public sort of back and forth relationship with the Word myself over the past couple of years. And I've just learned that when trying to develop the trust or ear or empathy of anybody on the inside of church governance, the moment you throw that word out, the red flags just, just pop up everywhere.

Neylan McBaine [00:27:21] And so, you know, I take my cue from Claudia Bushman who once said, you know, that's just our F word and we just don't say it anymore. So I actually don't use it very often.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] So you don't self identify publicly as a feminist?

Neylan McBaine [00:27:35] Nyla I did in a post that I wrote on mom and Feminist Housewives a couple months or so ago. I said that I have in the past publicly distanced myself from the Word, but I am trying to, I'm trying to come to terms with it and I kind of added a little bit to it to try and make it my own. I said that I'm a self actualizing feminist, or I called it an Edenic feminist. And of course trying to rebrand a word such as that is almost impossible. So it's not something that I am too optimistic is going to catch on in any way.

Neylan McBaine [00:28:11] But I do think that it's important to try and make that word our own in the Mormon context because the way that we have been using it, those to whom we most need to be appealing, shut down immediately the moment they hear that word. And so I think if we to that audience, that 98% of your word members in Logan who may not have had a personal experience that sort of catalyzes these conversations in their own life, the way to open up their hearts and minds and, and to the possibility of these ideas is not to use the word feminist. That's the experience I've had and I

Kate Kelly [00:28:51] just wanted to add to that. I think one of the questions that you should ask those women in your ward isn't the question that Pew asked, but one of the important questions to ask is if the Prophet were to come out tomorrow and say that women were to be ordained, would you support that decision? And I think in that case you would get over 100%. 100%.

Neylan McBaine [00:29:11] That's a very interesting. Yeah.

Kate Kelly [00:29:13] And so I think ordinan women from the very beginning has said that we acknowledge the pattern of revelation comes from the Prophet and directly from God. And so I think when you reframe the question in that way, I think it finds a lot more support because people know that, you know, this is not a democracy, that the church has led by Jesus Christ, and that revelation comes from God. And so, you know, the people that we're asking aren't actually, you know, men. The people who we are asking for this change are God. And so I think a lot of. A lot of what we. And we can get into this in the podcast later on, a lot of what we're talking about is how revelation works and how we can be a part of that revelation.

Kate Kelly [00:30:01] And that's how, like, we see ourselves as participating actively in the revelatory process. And that's, I think, part of why Heather said that we see ourselves as extremely dedicated to the church and extremely faithful. And so, yeah, I think that maybe the question turned on its head in that way can reveal a little bit more in a different way.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] Heather, I'll give you. Is there anything you want to jump in before I go to the next question? Because I want to make sure I get your thoughts on this question I've been asking.

Heather Olson Beal [00:30:32] Well, I'll be quick. I would say that from my experience that I would call myself. Yeah. On the fringe. And I'm quite sure that the Mormons that I've gone to church with would say that also. Although I think, and I hope that they would say other things about my participation in church also. But I would also say to anyone who wondered about that, that in about three minutes time, if they were to go to the Ordained women website, they would see women who.

Heather Olson Beal [00:31:04] Many women and men who are not, quote, unquote, fringe at all, who are very dedicated, very faithful, who say that they have prayed and really, really, really wrestled with this personally and, you know, in prayer and that they, you know, they feel like they've been called, called almost. I don't know if there's anybody that would actually use that word, but they feel really like this, like Kate said, not against, you know, church progress or growth at all, but really out of a desire for greater participation. So in that regard, I mean, I've told many people, hey, you really need to go look at the website and see.

Heather Olson Beal [00:31:41] See who we are. Because, you know, you won't find vitriol and you won't find anger and you won't find people tearing down the church. You just. It's not there. You won't see that.

Complacency, Inclusion, and Church Structure

John Dehlin [00:31:50] So, Neylan, really, really quick, you touched on something that really stuck out to Me, you kind of said that if it's true that these women in my ward that just feel very happy and content with the church, you know, feel that way, and I'm going to be paraphrasing, but that it may just be they haven't had the chance or the occasion or the need or the awareness to kind of awaken to many of the questions and the concerns and the topics that you guys are discussing. Is there any part of you that feels like these are questions and concerns? The ones that you have, they should also have. I know that in the modern world we tend to not want to say what people should or shouldn't think or feel, feel or do, but are there concerns that you have that you feel like most women in the church should also have?

Neylan McBaine [00:32:50] Well, yeah, as you say, should is a very loaded statement. I will never do anything to take away the sense of beauty and satisfaction and wholeness that a woman can experience as a member of the church and as a participant in the gospel.

Neylan McBaine [00:33:11] And I am not interested in forcing that dissatisfaction or those concerns upon people. And for me personally, I am not dissatisfied. I am concerned mostly for others. But for me personally, I'm at a very peaceful place. So I'm not interested in.

Neylan McBaine [00:33:35] I'm interested in being more defensive than offensive. But what happens, as I've discovered over the past couple of years as being part of this conversation, is that the experiences of both our men and women with some of these issues are becoming much more prevalent because of the lack of consistency that we in the church are feeling between our lived experience in the world and our lived experience in the church. And what happens is that when people are introduced to a sort of mind exercise where something is pointed out to them and, you know, they're asked, why isn't there parody in this? Why doesn't this reflect the way men and women are treated in the workplace or in a school place?

Neylan McBaine [00:34:21] It's at that point where they are able to become open to the questions themselves. And so rather than force it upon them, I love to introduce scenarios to people and challenge them to play almost their own mind games of switching gender roles in a certain scenario or replacing the he with a she in a text and asking people, what does this make you feel? Have you ever thought of this as being. As representing an area of lack of parody? And I think when I've done that, the people ask the questions themselves. I really have had to do very little else. And so I think my approach has been that our people want the best for ourselves and for our children.

Neylan McBaine [00:35:10] And in many, many cases, I've had the experience where you simply need to ask the right questions and challenge them from a very proactive place within themselves to put themselves in somebody else's shoes. And at that point, the job is done.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] So I'm about to ask questions to the other ladies, but I'm just going to follow up really quickly with Nyla. So what I hear you say is that the world is changing, where gender equality is becoming more prevalent and prominent. And so you have concern for women in the church who are currently or will be soon feeling and experiencing that difference and concern that that might lead to either dissatisfaction or disaffection from the church because of the, the noticing of

Neylan McBaine [00:36:00] that contrast does that that's accurate. And I think in past generations, the church has been an extension of their lived experience. But today, now, in order to be at peace with divided gender roles in the church, a woman needs to have a separate and very fully developed willingness to trust that this is different for a reason. And I don't think we should underestimate what a tremendous leap of faith and tremendous step that is going to be for our women today and our women in the future in a way that hasn't been expected of previous generations.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] And I was just going to ask, if you're happy now, if you're relatively at peace or content in the church now, if the world weren't changing, would you be fine then? If the changes in the world weren't causing the dissonance among some younger or more progressive women, would you just be happy for everything to just stay the same and never change if the world weren't changing? Because you're saying you're happy the way things are now.

Neylan McBaine [00:37:24] I, personally, I'm not sure I understand your question.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] If the changing world is causing more Mormon women to be discontent, I guess I'm just asking. Let's say that that world wasn't changing and so these women weren't being, weren't unhappy with the church. Are you saying that you'd be fine with everything, just sort of staying as it has been or as it is now?

Neylan McBaine [00:37:48] Well, I'm not, I mean, I'm not sure that's a productive exercise because we can't, I mean, we can't imagine that's, you know, I think, you know, when we say that the church was most in line with American culture, at least in 1956, right, when they appeared at the tabernacle of the Tabernacle Choir, performed in Washington, D.C. that's kind of been identified as the time when. When the church most closely associated with traditional American values as they were being lived in home and school and workplaces. And so, I mean, I guess

Sara Vraneš [00:38:24] I

Neylan McBaine [00:38:24] don't think we can say, you know, do we want to go back to 1956? No. But we can't. So we can't erase what's happened over the past 50 years. So I would never want that to not have happened. But, you know, so I'm not sure if that answers your question. You know, I have to answer my children's questions. I have to answer my questions from my own three daughters, which come rapidly and passionately.

Neylan McBaine [00:38:53] And so, despite the fact that, you know, my own personal experiences have led me to a place where I appreciate the separate spheres of my church experience, and I appreciate the opportunity of time and space that I feel like the Lord is trusting me with to create my own responsibilities and create my own service opportunities.

Neylan McBaine [00:39:15] I still have to face my daughters, and I have to put myself in their shoes and contrast and compare the experiences they're having in their own lives.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Right. I guess where I was going with that question was just. It was a different way of asking a question, you guys know is coming, which is, you know, is there something inherently wrong with the way things are now? And so, because I think. I think, you know, whether or not society is changing in its relative tension with the Church, some might view the way things are now as just inherently bad or defective or harmful in some way. And so, Sarah, I'll ask you first. This was actually a question that was that we're posing as a way to sort of also touch on the unity between. Are there things in the church that are real issues or problems that are, you know, structural or doctrinal that you would say are problematic?

Structural Problems and Correlation in the Church

Sara Vraneš [00:40:13] Yeah, definitely. And one that, I mean, comes to mind is how Relief Society was made an auxiliary in, you know, when there was the whole correlation of the priesthood. I'm thinking more so happening in, like, 1906, 1908. And the relief idea became, you know, just this, another hour of church that women were to attend.

Sara Vraneš [00:40:40] And I think that is. That's a problem. We've taken away that rich history and a lot of that, you know, dare I say, authority that came with the original structure of the Relief Society and being this society of women gathered together that were a governing body in and of themselves.

Sara Vraneš [00:41:01] So that is definitely a problem. And also just little structural things like how visiting teaching, it could easily be extended to women starting at age 12, just as home teaching is extended to young men when they are 12 or 14 years old.

Sara Vraneš [00:41:20] That's a really simple thing that I see that could change. I know there's some wards in the Bay Area where I'm from, where that is what happens. The bishops have decided to extend visiting teaching to women, young women at age 12 being the responsibility as a young teacher.

Neylan McBaine [00:41:38] I hear about stakes doing this all over the place now and mandating it from the stakeholder, and I think it's great.

Sara Vraneš [00:41:47] That gives me hope, sparks my faith in the progress that we are seeing and that we will continue to see.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Okay. I just want to make sure. Are there any other sort of foundational, structural, or doctrinal problems that you. That you see? I hear you say that Joseph Smith established a Relief Society that was very empowered and autonomous, and somehow we've taken that away. And then you started talking about opportunities that we have within the structure to make things better that falls short of female ordination. Any other structural or doctrinal problems that you feel like you're comfortable highlighting?

Sara Vraneš [00:42:33] I mean, yeah, there are tons of. I hesitate somewhat to bring them up because I do want the conversation to remain somewhat positive and focus on the good that we can do. No, but a lot of it comes back to our history and how women were. It was the norm for women to wash and anoint women, particularly in times of childbirth. That's one that is of particular interest to me in my field, and I think that is something that was taken away from just this tradition that Mormon women would do. And that's. I mean, it's sad that that is not. That's not a current part of our culture and of our tradition. And just, you know,

Neylan McBaine [00:43:27] if I could just interject. Sarah, I love talking about the early history of the Relief Society. However, it's been pointed out to me by some, the previous wave of women's activists, that we need not go back to our earliest history, actually, to find examples of the Relief Society working on a much more efficient and meaningful level in the lives of women. You know, some of that early Generation in the 60s and 70s saw the relief Society at a heyday of its own, and they mourn the loss of privileges and opportunities and community building that were available less than 50 years ago.

Sara Vraneš [00:44:10] Definitely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] I think sometimes, Nyla, the Mormons feel comfortable the closer you get to Joseph Smith, the safer ground you're on. And so if you can say Joseph did it, then you're not as vulnerable.

Neylan McBaine [00:44:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Okay. And. Yeah, and I'll just refer my listeners. I've published the Sunstone recording of a gift given A gift taken away by Linda Newell. Is that who it was? Anybody?

Neylan McBaine [00:44:43] That would be my most likely guess because she really is the expert in

John Dehlin [00:44:46] this area where she talks about the women laying on of hands, healing and washings and anointing ordinances that they did well into the early 20th century before.

Sara Vraneš [00:44:57] Everyone should read that. Who's listening to this podcast? Yep.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] Okay. Okay. Kate.

Kate Kelly [00:45:02] Linda. Oh, I was going to say Linda K. Newell.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] Okay.

Kate Kelly [00:45:06] Because she's an authority figure. So we have to have a middle initiative.

Neylan McBaine [00:45:08] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] Okay. This feels like a softball.

Neylan McBaine [00:45:13] Hey, Linda Newell.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Right. Or l. Kathryn Newell. Right. Okay. Kate and Heather. This feels like a softball. But are there any real structural issues or doctrinal issues in the church? Okay, Kate.

Kate Kelly [00:45:32] And I think this is maybe one point where we just start to diverge a little bit in our approach to how the church can be made to be more inclusive. I think when I decided to start wording women early this year, I came to a point in my life when I was much like Sarah in that I thought, you know, I'm just tired of looking up on the stand and only ever seeing men. I'm tired of hearing talks and it only ever being the voices of men. I'm tired of women not being able to participate at the same level. You know, why can't they be a ward clerk? Why can't they be these different things?

Heather Olson Beal [00:46:21] And.

Kate Kelly [00:46:21] And I. For me, that led me to what I saw was the root of the entire inequitable system, which is that the church is governed through the priesthood and that women are not given the priesthood, which is, we believe, the power of God. And I started. I sort of. That. That transition for me started on my mission.

Kate Kelly [00:46:49] I served a mission in Barcelona, Spain, and I was performing all of the same work as elder missionaries, or some people like to call them brother missionaries, because brother is the appropriate equivalent to sister. So I was doing the same work as the brother missionaries, and they were allowed to then take the people who I had loved and taught and interview them and baptize them and confirm them and serve in all the leadership roles, even though they may have been younger and less mature than I was at that point.

Kate Kelly [00:47:29] And it just really. That struck a chord in me that continued until pretty much January of this year when I said, you know, what is at the root of the inequality? I see. And at the root of that is the fact that men are ordained and women are not.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] Patriarchy. Is that another way to say it?

Kate Kelly [00:47:55] That is another way of saying it.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Kelly [00:47:59] And patriarchy, let's Keep in mind that when we talk about patriarchy, it's not a. It's not men that we're talking about, because we love men. And, you know, I love my husband and I love my father and I love my brothers, and I love all the men who are, you know, amazing, supportive leaders in the church. When we talk about patriarchy, we're talking about a hierarchical system in which men are inherently placed above women in all positions of leadership.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] Right.

Neylan McBaine [00:48:30] I would be interested to know, John, about. About the definition, though, Kate, of the priesthood as the power of God exclusively, because as I alluded to before, I feel like one of the responsibilities we have as part of this conversation is to really separate the administrative responsibilities from the power to act in God's name. And so I wonder, Are those conflated in your mind? Are they one and the same thing, or can you extricate them? And how does extricating them affect your position at all?

John Dehlin [00:49:12] So let's have Heather answer that and then, Kate, you can follow up.

Heather Olson Beal [00:49:19] Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think they definitely are two different things that we have conflated. I mean, you know. Okay. I just finished reading Sherry's Cherry Du's book. We talked about this right before the call, Women in the Priesthood. And she talks about this. She talks about how we say, you know, we'd like to thank the priesthood for setting up the chairs. We'd like to thank the priesthood for, you know, so that's kind of, you know, that's semantics, but that it, you know, words carry meaning with them. So we kind of culturally have come to where we don't separate them.

Heather Olson Beal [00:49:58] The priesthood. When we say it, we generally. I think most Mormons are thinking of the men who hold it more than they're thinking of the power of God or the authority or priesthood keys. So I think they are two separate things, but not the way it's sort of currently constituted or currently practiced.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Yeah, I know in Sunday school, it's just, what's the definition of priesthood? It's the paradox in God's name.

Sara Vraneš [00:50:25] Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] Isn't that the Sunday school definition of priesthood?

Kate Kelly [00:50:28] But if you look at just like a simple search on lds.org it says that the word priesthood has two meanings. First, priesthood is the power and authority of God. It has always existed and will continue to exist without end, citing several scriptures. And then it says, second in mortality, priesthood is the power and authority that God gives to man to act in all things necessary for the salvation of God's children. And then it throws in and the blessings of the priests are available to all who receive the gospel. So I think it's those two things are one and the same. According to the church, it's both the power and authority of God and to act in the name of God, and then it's also to basically carry out the governance of the church. So I see those two things coupled currently, the way that the structure of the church is.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] Neylan, what's your response to that?

Neylan McBaine [00:51:33] Just that I think that I think it's our responsibility to uncouple them rhetorically and in practice. And I think that that's very different than giving women the opportunity to, or giving women that administrative responsibility. You know, the priesthood as an administrative tool has actually varied widely over the course of scriptural history. You know, I mean, at times it's been used as a military power. At times it's been, you know, the responsibility to keep sacred records. The way male administrative leaders of God's body have been instructed to use that authority has varied widely. What hasn't varied is the opportunity to tap into the power of God to

Kate Kelly [00:52:29] be

Neylan McBaine [00:52:31] to draw closer to him through whatever ordinances are available at that time. And, and so I think we have to, as a people, we have to have a much more fluid definition of priesthood. And maybe that's an opening for Kate to say, well, then let's just extend it to women. And you may very well be right if you say that, Kate. But I do think that we do a disservice to ourselves and our people when we say that the only way to tap into the power to act in God's name is to have those administrative responsibilities.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] Is that a straw man? Heather and Kate, like, I don't know if I hear you guys saying that the power of God is equal to the priesthood. I more hear you saying that that's the way the church seems to be teaching it. Is that right, Heather? I'll let you answer that.

Heather Olson Beal [00:53:25] Yeah, that's what I would say. I would say that all those administrative offices do not equal priesthood, but that's the way we use it. So while I like the idea of saying, well, let's just start saying what we mean, and I think that there is importance in that. You know, in that effort, you still butt up against the reality, which is that's what it means to Mormons, that's what it means to Mormon church leaders, I feel, you know, in a lot of, in a lot of what we hear, you know, we, I may say, I think it was M. Russell Ballard, I think at Education Week that said, you know, made a comment that was.

Heather Olson Beal [00:54:08] I was very unhappy about that, said, you know, women, you need to know, basically, you need to know your place. So, you know, I feel like we get messages that communicate that the things are conflated in people's minds. So then it becomes a question of do we speak that language, or do we speak the language that we're saying? Maybe we should by decoupling them. I don't know.

Kate Kelly [00:54:35] And I would just add, I think Nayland is right, that what the priesthood has meant over time has been fluid in the past. And I would add to that that that has also included women. There were female deaconesses, for example, mentioned in the scriptures. They're female prophetesses.

Kate Kelly [00:54:56] And so I think she's right that that has been fluid, and it means a specific thing for Mormonism in 2013. But I think the fluidity can be expanded and has been expanded over time. And I would also just add that I think maybe a little bit about what Neylan is talking about is the difference between the conferral of the priesthood and ordination, because we specifically say ordain women, and we don't say confer priesthood. So when a man receives the priesthood, first the priesthood is conferred upon him, and then he's ordained to an office of the priesthood. And so those two things I see. Well, they are different.

Kate Kelly [00:55:40] There are different ordinances for them. And so one can have the priesthood conferred upon them, but not be ordained to office. And we're specifically requesting ordination because we don't only want to have the spiritual blessings and the connection with God, although that's extremely important. We also want to be able to participate and officiate in the ordinances of the Gospel on the same level that men do. And so I think you're right that women can access a lot more power than they currently do. And that doesn't necessarily require ordination, but the ordination I see is a separate thing.

Neylan McBaine [00:56:21] You say neither, I say either. You say neither, and I say neither. Either, either, neither, neither. Let's call the whole thing off.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] Yes.

Neylan McBaine [00:56:37] You like potato, I like potato. You like tomato, I like tomato.

John Dehlin [00:56:45] Potato, potato, tomato, tomato.

Heather Olson Beal [00:56:49] Let's call the whole thing off.

Neylan McBaine [00:56:52] But, oh, if we call the whole

Heather Olson Beal [00:56:56] thing off, then we must party.

Defining Priesthood Power and Women's Access

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 445b

John Dehlin [00:00:00] You say either, I say either, you say neither, and I say neither.

Neylan McBaine [00:00:08] Either, either, neither, neither.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Let's call the whole thing off. So just to kind of bring this together, as I'm trying to wrap my brain around it, what I hear kind of everyone agreeing upon is that there's the power of God, which not only all Mormons have, but in theory, lots of non Mormons have too. And we shouldn't necessarily say that priesthood equals the power of God. Is that something we all agree upon?

Neylan McBaine [00:00:41] No, I think it's. I don't think the priesthood is power. I think it's the power to act in God's name. It's a right. I don't think. I think. I'm not sure that it's the same as saying that everybody has the Holy Ghost as if it's the light of Christ that people do have before they actually are given the gift of the Holy Ghost.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] Okay, okay, so you're saying that. And this goes to kind of our next line of questions. It's about, you know, it seemed like many of the women on the second interview said, we already have the priesthood. And so what you're saying is the Mormon women have something that the rest of the world doesn't that has to do with priesthood.

Neylan McBaine [00:01:25] So what I believe that. I think maybe one way to state the distinction is the power versus the performance. For me, much of what is at issue is the external performance of invoking God. And so I have to say to myself, does it make a significant difference? Would it make a significant difference in my relationship with God and in my ability to bless and influence the loved ones in my life if I were able to perform priesthood rather than simply have the power of the priesthood? And for me, the answer is no. That performance is not as important to me as being able to influence

Guest [00:02:22] for

Neylan McBaine [00:02:22] good the spiritual development of those around me.

John Dehlin [00:02:28] So, Sarah, are you one that believes that you already have the priesthood?

Sara Vraneš [00:02:33] Well, that's a tricky question. I believe. I mean, especially then I served a mission as well, and I felt like, especially as a missionary, I had, you know, you are a representative of Jesus Christ as a missionary. And of course then I had the power to act in God's name. That's what I was called to do. And I was set apart. And I dare I say, you know, ordained a missionary to do that. And I think there's also an added level of this that we find in our temple worship. You know, we do receive a certain power and authority in the temple. So, I mean, that's a tricky question. But we do. I feel like I do have some sort of. I don't want to say the word power, but. Yeah, I mean, some sort of variation of the priesthood, of that power, that ability to act in God's name. Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] But you don't want to full out say, I have the priesthood.

Sara Vraneš [00:03:36] Well, no, because then it would be like the feminist word. People would just be like, okay, she's crazy, and not listen to me.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] So it's more out of a concern for how it might impact things.

Sara Vraneš [00:03:48] Yeah. I want a further discussion about this and talk about why I feel like I, you know, as a. As a disciple of Christ, as a member of the church, I am supposed to act in. In God's name.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Okay.

Kate Kelly [00:04:00] But it's not just Sarah. I mean, there's. I've heard from a lot of women, both in the previous podcast and just from a lot of other Mormon feminists who say we. We don't need to be ordained. We already have the priesthood. Like, that's an argument that a lot of people make.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Neylan, is that your view?

Kate Kelly [00:04:23] I.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Or is the same as Sarah?

Neylan McBaine [00:04:27] If we're. If we're defining the priesthood as the. As the ability to act with full force in God's name for the betterment and the spiritual healing and development of those around me, then the answer is yes. Do I have the keys to officiate and to perform the administrative rites of the priesthood? No.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Okay. And so for Sarah and Neylan,

Guest [00:04:53] is

John Dehlin [00:04:53] it the endowment ceremony where that is received, or do young women have it?

Neylan McBaine [00:05:02] All I could say is I grew up in the home of a single mother. When my mother said a prayer for my healing or for my well being as I went off to school, there was power in that. And the closeness that we felt with God didn't change. When she got married to a priesthood holder, there was a tangible difference in the way that our family structure felt from an eternal point of view. We felt completed, we felt whole. But in terms of the ability to tap into all that we needed for our spiritual development and growth, there was nothing lacking in my home growing up.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] And I brought this up, I think, in part two. But if a Catholic mom prays for her Catholic daughter in a single home, are you saying you had something more than they had?

Neylan McBaine [00:05:58] I believe so.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] And what is that?

Sara Vraneš [00:06:03] If I can cut into or jump in right now, too. Similar to that, I definitely, as I mentioned, I am a midwife, and a lot of times during births, I find myself praying over the people that I'm helping, praying over the situation and asking for help from on high, asking for, you know, revelation for what I should do and help and guidance. And there, there is a power that I'm tapping into in that, particularly in that situation, asking help, you know, on behalf of someone else.

Sara Vraneš [00:06:43] And that, I mean, and that can be, we can link that to how we see the priesthood work in the traditional sense, you know, in, in our culture with men, you know, blessing men and women. But I definitely feel like I am able to do, you know, it's unofficial that I'm, you know, blessing these women and helping them, but I'm definitely asking, asking, you know, the powers on high to help me and to help them. So there is, I'm working, I'm playing with some power somehow.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] And for you, did that come from a temple ordinance? Is that where it came from for you?

Sara Vraneš [00:07:20] Perhaps the clarity of thought and that being in tune, in touch with my body, perhaps? Yeah, through the washing and anointing in the temple

John Dehlin [00:07:35] for you, does a non endowed LDS woman who's in her 30s also have access to that power? Or are you saying that there's some extra, extra power from actually going through the temple?

Sara Vraneš [00:07:48] Well, I would, I mean, having a testimony of the temple and of the gospel, I, I believe that there is some added measure there, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] Okay, and Nyla, for you is, do you agree, Is that your view as well? Yes, but, but there is some power by being a non endowed woman in the church that's still in some way superior to power that non Mormons.

Neylan McBaine [00:08:12] Well, you know, I mean, my answer to that is, let's look at how the Savior healed. The Savior healed through the power of faith. You know, if we invoke the power of faith as our foremothers did early in the church, and we bless through the power of faith, that is power. And it was power enough for the Savior to heal in his own lifetime. He did not invoke the Melchizedek priesthood. He invoked people's faith, not only his own faith, but the faith of those receiving the healing. And that's hugely significant to me.

Kate Kelly [00:08:47] I would just jump in because I think, and again, I've heard this point of view from a lot of different people and not just Sarah and Neylan, but I think that it's for us important to point out that while prayer is powerful and we believe in prayer and we, you know, for ordained women, we did fast and praying on Equality Day, August 26, with a bunch of women from interfaith groups and we believe in the power of prayer.

Kate Kelly [00:09:21] If you don't Think that women are excluded from anything by not having the priesthood? And this is more of a question, then what do men gain by having it? And so why don't men just say a prayer? Why do they need to be ordained to the priesthood? Why do they need to have the priesthood conferred upon them? If you see those things as parallel and if you see women's access to that as equal, then why is there this other structure for men?

Kate Kelly [00:09:50] And if that's so, is that spiritual? Is there a spiritual component to being ordained to the priesthood? When you're a 12 year old boy, when you're ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood, is that real? Because I think that's real. And when I hear this argument from women that are saying, well, I'm not trying to trivialize the argument, but I'm trying to say what I've heard from other people.

Kate Kelly [00:10:13] I went through the temple, so I have the priesthood functionally, whether or not that's true, why is there a separate thing for men? Do you believe that's real? If it is real, why is it only for men?

Priesthood Keys, Soft Power, and Authority

Neylan McBaine [00:10:28] Well, I think one thing we haven't mentioned is the need for keys. And honestly I do not fully understand what priesthood keys necessarily do or are, except that they open channels that faith cannot. And, and so I guess my answer would be that you know, that faith is sufficient for individual interactions. But as communities there is a need for this thing called keys, where

Guest [00:11:13] particular

Neylan McBaine [00:11:14] channels need to be opened through so specific keys that are designated through those mail only administrative posts.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] And that's baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost

Neylan McBaine [00:11:28] ordinances require keys, being a

John Dehlin [00:11:31] bishop and those types of things.

Neylan McBaine [00:11:34] So I guess I would just say what the boys get is not more power. Again, it's this administrative.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] Like a license.

Neylan McBaine [00:11:45] Yeah, it's an administrative license to work on behalf of the community.

Kate Kelly [00:11:49] And that's not what I've heard from men in my life and that's not what I've heard from my dad when he says it was. Having the priesthood has been a transformative power in his life. Aside from being a bishop, aside from being a branch president, aside from being in the Stake High Council and all these other callings that he's had. It's not just the administrative duties, but it is a transformative power and that he feels he's a different person. And so I think to say, oh, that's just administrative, that's not consistent with the people in my life that I've heard from, like my dad and my brothers and my husband and other priesthood holders.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] But, Kate, what I've heard Neylan say is that we need to change the discourse, that your dad and brothers are sincere, but they don't understand, you know, things fully, and that we need to move the church towards a better, more full understanding of how things really are. I'm sorry, Neylan, if I misspoke for you, but.

Neylan McBaine [00:12:46] Well, no, I mean, I don't want to. I don't. I certainly don't want to, you know, to diminish the experiences that your father and brothers have had. And I believe that those are real. Absolutely. I mean, to think about the idea of receiving my patriarchal blessing, which has been so important to me in my life and that I received it. 15 it's just mind boggling to me that a man was capable of being that conduit for what I believe was God's Word. So I'm denying that, but what I think I am saying is that women have not typically felt comfortable claiming those transformative experiences themselves when they act in faith. And I'd love to see more rhetoric about women claiming power while acting in faith, because I think those stories are there, but I don't think the rhetoric is there to support it.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] But we're starting to hear it right in General Conference. Are we starting.

Neylan McBaine [00:13:54] Absolutely, I think we are.

Guest [00:13:57] John, how are we starting to hear that in General Conference?

John Dehlin [00:14:01] I thought. I mean, I'm not paying too close of attention, but I'm trying to pay attention. And I think I'm starting to hear a discourse by the brethren at General Conference that's trying to begin teasing a part of authority from God's power.

Neylan McBaine [00:14:19] I think that's what Elder Christensen, sorry, Elder Christopher Wisson was trying to do. I think if we really look at what he was trying to do from the best of intentions, I think that was it. I also think that Bob Bonnie Oscarson gave a very strong talk about claiming our own experiences and our own authority. And so I'm starting to see glimpses of it. I would love to see stronger rhetoric.

Kate Kelly [00:14:47] And I think one of the most valuable things that Elder Christofferson said is that we don't know why women don't have the priesthood. And I think that is extremely valuable and shows us where we are at in the stage of development, as I would see it. I think it's just amazing that we've gotten to a place where there isn't any hemming or hahing or trying to explain why it is that women aren't ordained. It's just said straight in General Conference that we don't know why women aren't ordained.

Kate Kelly [00:15:22] I think that's a great place for us to be and leaves a lot of potential open. And, I mean, I think we can talk all day about whether or not women have spiritual gifts and can exercise the power of prayer. And I think we all agree that's true. And I certainly think that that should be done on a much wider scale. And Sarah has talked about giving a blessing while she's participating in a birth. I think that's valuable and extremely powerful and should be done more.

Kate Kelly [00:15:56] And I think women should claim these gifts. But that still leaves no explanation as to why women can't officiate in the ordinances of the church. And like I said, we go back to my mission and we think about why I could pray, why I could teach with the Spirit, why I could find people with the Spirit, why I could preach with the power of God, but then I can't interview them, I can't baptize them, I can't ordain them, I can't give them the power of the Holy Ghost. I can't be bishop. I can't be any of these other things. And so what then?

John Dehlin [00:16:33] So, Heather, real quick, I wanted to get you in. It sounds like Elder Christofferson's message and some of the other messages aren't hitting you. Is that what I heard you say?

Guest [00:16:43] Yeah, yeah. I would say. And this comes from my perspective as a parent. Um, I've got two daughters and one son that while I love the idea that. And I would totally say, yeah, women have power. And I can say, like, you know, I could totally say a prayer with my. With my kid and feel like that was very, very powerful. I could say, you know, ask Heavenly Father to bless my child and basically be accomplishing the same thing as my husband might if he were doing it as a priesthood thing. But that is a thing. The officialness means something. So doing it informally and doing it in private, because basically, let's face it, I mean, let's be real honest, if I decided to exercise my power in a public way in church, there would not be happy consequences for me in terms of my church membership. I don't think that for a second.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] So you mean if you laid your hands on your daughter's head to heal her?

Guest [00:17:51] Yeah, I mean, and she's asked me. My oldest daughter is pretty much done with the church for now. She sees it as a place that is probably one inch shy of hostile to her. As someone who. This is hard for me to talk about, who feels Very ambitious and who feels independent and who's almost 17 and not interested in motherhood. So all the conversations about priesthood and motherhood are 100% lost on her as they are on my 13 year old. And I'm super glad that my 13 year old is not worrying right now about being a mom because she's 13 and I don't want her to be thinking about that.

Guest [00:18:29] But so for my daughter, you know, she asked me this summer, Bran always gives the kid kids a blessing before school starts. And she, she sent me a text. It's like, you know, 21st century communication. And said when it comes time for us to, you know, have our back to school blessings, can you do that with a dad, please?

Guest [00:18:49] And I said no. Now I know that there are people who have done that and, you know, and that's fine for them, but I personally didn't, I told her, I said, if you want, you know, I can sit in here on your bed or we can, I can sit next to you on a, you know, on the couch and I can say a prayer with you. I'm not going to give you a blessing because I don't feel like that's something that I have the power to do. So I have some other power that's in my head and that's awesome because I'm her mom and I love her, but I don't have power to lay my hands on her.

Guest [00:19:25] I know what that means in Mormon culture. And we can say that we want it to mean something else and that it should and that we should change the discourse. English has changed a lot in hundreds and hundreds of years, but for me in my life, I don't have time for that. You know, she's almost 17, so I don't have time to wait for the discourse to change so that that can somehow work in her life.

Guest [00:19:50] So that whole idea of like soft power or power, it's basically a power that we can't exercise in public that we're not authorized to exercise by the church, that if we did exercise it outside of sort of whispering or, you know, women talking amongst themselves, that would not be kindly received by our church. So to me, if that's the kind of quote unquote power we're talking about, that's not what I'm looking for. And it's an invisible power. It's a power that my daughters don't see enacted anywhere. They don't see any women in their lives, any Mormon women in their lives using any kind of visible audible power to participate officially in their spiritual lives as Mormon women.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] Apart from non prayer. Apart from. Apart from just prayer.

Guest [00:20:38] That's right. And that's like celebrate good times. March 2013.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] I meant your prayer. I meant your prayer.

Guest [00:20:48] My prayer. And I can say a prayer in church. You know, I do that.

John Dehlin [00:20:52] You can pray over your children at home, though, right?

Guest [00:20:55] I can, but they also know that that's not the same thing. I mean, ordinances and rituals are important for a reason. And we can, you know, I could over time, create a new ritual where I did a new thing like hold her elbow while I say a special prayer over her. And then I could make up certificates and I could call it something, and I could create a curriculum and I could basically do what the church has done. And over a very long time, that could suddenly have the meaning, although it wouldn't because nobody else would recognize it. It would be our weird, cool, funky family thing that we do, which is awesome.

Guest [00:21:29] But I mean, those things are meaningful for a reason. It's because everyone buys into that. It's because we all agree this is a thing. And if someone gets ordained to the priesthood or gets the Holy Ghost, it's that whole process, and it's the public part of it, it's the official part of it. And that's non existent from my perspective for Mormon women.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] So, Sarah Nyland, this is something that I felt like I heard from Margaret Blair Young, which was, I don't know what problem these women have. I exercise my priesthood all the time. I don't know if I'm misquoting Margaret, but I kind of remember her saying something to that effect. And so I guess my question to both of you is, what does exercising priesthood for a woman in 2013 privately look like? And are you guys supportive of women doing things like laying out of hands for blessings or for healings if it's private or against it?

Neylan McBaine [00:22:30] Sarah, why don't you go ahead?

Sara Vraneš [00:22:31] Yeah, well, it's difficult, of course. I mean, this is the part in my thoughts and in my personal writings where I sometimes have to make myself vulnerable and say, a lot of times, you know what? I don't know.

Sara Vraneš [00:22:49] I don't know exactly where I stand on certain aspects of this. And part of that's in part of, you know, our definition of the word priesthood. We've discussed, you know, a couple different definitions of it, and really, it's hard. And also the nomenclature that's in use, you know, like the priesthood meaning whether it means a group of men or, you know, the men who pass the sacrament or Whatever. So for me, it's hard for me to answer this just because of how everyone, you know, involved in this conversation, this movement, you know, or like you said earlier, the, you know, the number of Mormon women, that's the number of different opinions. It's hard for me to answer that question.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] Is it where, if you're honest, it would alienate you or stop the conversation or cause people to be unhappy so you can't share your real feelings?

Kate Kelly [00:23:46] No.

Sara Vraneš [00:23:46] No. I don't think I've ever been afraid of sharing my real feelings. What I mean, I hesitate with this just because I feel like I, you know, when Margaret, whatever it was that she said about me, like, oh, I use my preset all the time. Like, I am acting or I try to act in God's name all the time, especially like, you know, in my career, like, I try and do that, but I don't think it's.

Sara Vraneš [00:24:20] See, no. And it's just. It's hard. It's hard to pinpoint how I feel about this. But I feel like I don't need to necessarily also be sanctioned in my ability to, you know, to pray over a woman in childbirth. I don't need that to be sanctioned. But also I wouldn't feel comfortable, you know, say, if that was in front of a congregation doing that. But maybe that just, you know, is reflection on my. My personal weaknesses with that.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] But does that include laying out of hands?

Sara Vraneš [00:24:50] Perhaps. But I mean, and for me, like, I'm not necessarily. I'm not like, you know, having my. My clients sitting in a chair in front of me, putting my hands on their head doing that, you know, but I am. I'm using different essential oils, anointing them, like, whether it's their back or the back of their neck or whatever, you know, like, in a very unofficial way. And I do. I place my hands on them on a lot.

Sara Vraneš [00:25:11] And, you know, as I'm praying, it is like a constant prayer, or it is very directed, but it's not so much. I feel like for me, this is when it gets to that tricky. Those tricky waters of defining, you know, what it would look like, too, if women were to, you know, enact or, you know, participate in these priesthood ordinances. It's just. It's tricky. And so I'm willing to, yeah, I'm willing to say, be vulnerable and say, I don't really know, but. Sorry, what were you saying, Kate?

Kate Kelly [00:25:41] So I just wanted to be clear that what Sarah just said is that she gives blessings, and that means different things for different people. But what she's saying is actually much more radical, in my opinion, than what ordained women is saying. Because what she's saying and what Margaret has said in the past and what others have said is I just do it. Like, I just do it on my own. I, I just say my prayer. I just lay my hands on people's heads.

Kate Kelly [00:26:06] And I actually consider that to be much more rogue and much more leading people out of the church than what we're doing. What we're doing. Let me finish my thought. I think that what we're doing is we're working within the existing structure of the church and we're asking that we be officially sanctioned to participate in these ordinances. And what other women are saying is I'm just going to claim my power and do my own thing and, and like participate on the level that I want to participate on. And that's fine.

Kate Kelly [00:26:39] I think that's amazing. And I know a lot of women who have done that. But to me, that's not within the sanctioned realm of the church. What Heather is saying is true. You can't do that publicly. You can't say, okay, well, I'm going to bless my kids at home and when they turn eight and they get baptized, I want to be in that circle when they are conferred with the Holy Ghost. Because I just believe I have that power that doesn't exist. That's not real. That's living in a land, I mean, for lack of a better word, that's living in make believe land where you can just participate in ordinances you don't have the authority to participate in.

Kate Kelly [00:27:15] And so I'm not saying that leaves Sarah out of the church. Obviously Sarah is very active and invested in the church, but I think that line of thinking of just saying I'm going to go rogue reminds me of the Catholic, the Roman Catholic women priests who are like, you know what, we've been doing this like pro ordination campaign for 30 years. We're just going to ordain people, we're going to have our own congregations, we're going to have women priests, and we're going to be the change we wish to see. And at that point, that doesn't to me jive with what the church is that reflects that there is no authority that the church doesn't have the authority to confer that you can just claim it.

Kate Kelly [00:27:53] And I'm not saying that in response to anything Nayland or Sarah has said in this podcast, but I've heard that from a lot of women. Well, I'm just Going to claim my priesthood power. And you even asking for something from men is anti feminist. And I just wholeheartedly could not agree more if they maintain that they want to stay within the church, because I just don't see those two things as compatible.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] All right, so Sarah, we got to give Sarah a chance to respond because you kind of tried to characterize or reframe. I hear Sarah being very humble and uncertain. Going rogue doesn't. That's not how I would characterize what I heard from Sarah. It's more like I know that there's something that I want to do. I'm not quite sure what it is, but I'm doing it. But I'm still respectful, but I'm quiet about it because I want to be subtle and diplomatic and reverent about it. That's how I would rephrase what I heard.

Kate Kelly [00:28:48] Why do you want to be subtle and diplomatic and reverent?

John Dehlin [00:28:50] Because we live in a political world.

Neylan McBaine [00:28:53] Well, I would also interject, we're talking about public and private rituals. And rituals have an incredibly important place in our doctrine because they involve the body, which is the defining characteristic of life here. Doing things with your body means something. Right. Or else we wouldn't be here. But I think one of the things that Sarah is saying is that public rituals and private rituals are different and that she feels comfortable exercising that closeness to God. She feels empowered to call upon it within private settings.

Kate Kelly [00:29:33] Why don't men have public and private rituals?

Neylan McBaine [00:29:36] Because I think, why don't men have public and private rituals?

Kate Kelly [00:29:40] Like, why wouldn't men say the same thing? Like, I'm just going to do this diplomatically and quietly at home so that no one notices me and I can just have my sleep. My separate relationship with God, where a man doesn't have to say that, a man doesn't have to do it quietly

Neylan McBaine [00:29:53] because for some reason, right now,

Sara Vraneš [00:29:57] a

Neylan McBaine [00:29:57] man's responsibility is to act as the community representative in that ritual. But for me, those gender barriers do break down when you're talking about private rituals that are about individual relationships. For me, it's a performance equals community, private equals individuals.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] Yeah. So for Nyland, a man can do a private ritual, too, in addition, and do private rituals.

Neylan McBaine [00:30:23] I mean, a father's blessing is the private ritual. I mean, ironically, I think actually, Heather, I would have joined my husband because for me there, you know, with your daughter, I mean, we've actually worked.

Sara Vraneš [00:30:35] I haven't.

Neylan McBaine [00:30:36] She's actually hasn't said those words, but we've come close to that. And I've anticipated that with my own daughter, who's. Who's only 10 now. But for me, a distinction between public and private, because the public is something that is meant for the communal worship. It's a triangular relationship with God. It's between the individual, but also the community and God. And that's the way I see the sacrament. For instance, there's an individual and a communal element to the sacrament. In the communal element, the men are responsible for officiating as the representatives of the community. However, you know, you're talking about passing the plate, and I've said this publicly, you're passing a sacrament plate.

Neylan McBaine [00:31:16] My 5 year old passes it to my 7 year old girl, you know, and she is offering the atonement of Christ to her sister in a very private and individual way, even though the men are officiating in the community ritual. So that's where it breaks down for me. And I think that, you know, again, going back to early representations of the way our foremothers exercised this, that is the pattern that they seem to follow themselves.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] So, Neylan, you just blew my socks off a little bit, because I thought I just heard you say that you would be okay participating, putting your hands on the head of your child for a parental blessing. Is that true?

Neylan McBaine [00:31:59] I would join my husband.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] Okay, you wouldn't be the voice, but you would be hands on.

Kate Kelly [00:32:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:06] And what about women?

Neylan McBaine [00:32:09] Here's another thing, John. I mean, growing up without a father, you know, I want to make a distinction between a lack of closeness to God and then a lack of simply wanting a man to be a part of our family rituals.

Neylan McBaine [00:32:30] You know, and this is where I get emotional. You know, as a mother, I am not ready to throw out my responsibility as the bearer of children as a uniquely feminine divine power. Likewise, I am not willing to throw out the opportunity that my husband has to participate in the lives of my children in a way that no man participated in my life growing up.

Neylan McBaine [00:32:55] And that to me is extremely sacred. And to be able to have that relationship with his children that I had with no man, and that I will never be able to have with them, just as he will never be able to have that maternal relationship with them.

Neylan McBaine [00:33:13] I treasure that and I cherish that. And I wouldn't want to do anything to step into that space that he shares with them as, you know, the holder of the keys that open that door to our family's communal access to priesthood authority.

Guest [00:33:36] Can I make a comment, John?

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Sure. I just want to say now, and I think that's beautiful and it just sounds like you have reverence for the structure and the order that the church has set up, and you believe that it's of a divine origin.

Neylan McBaine [00:33:48] Oh, absolutely. And again, you know, I mean, I try and use the word equality nowhere because I, you know. You know, I think I totally hear what Heather is saying in her comments about her own children. And I think, you know, my unusual experience growing up without. I mean, I grew up with a father, but, you know, a father in my home and certainly a church member father, really shaped my. Both my understanding of what we have as women, but also what we lack as women and what we can share with men as those separate spheres work effectively together.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] Okay, Heather, Sorry.

Guest [00:34:39] Well, I would just say not. I mean, just sort of to follow along or just to answer back to Neylan in terms of my own family, because I totally appreciate what you're saying. I just feel like it would be, you know, Brent and I share all kinds of things, and this is probably, you know, this totally not probably comes out of my experience as a parent. We have had a very fluid assignment of responsibilities. And there have been times when I was more the primary caregiver. There have been times when he was. I mean, that just through our whole. We've married almost 21 years, and so I see it as just another thing that we.

Guest [00:35:20] It wouldn't be like, I'm the mom, and I only have a special thing that you can't share, because I actually don't think that. And I. And I often joke that I'm, like, the anti mom, and all the things that were supposed to happen in my brain and my heart about motherhood, like, happened or they mutated at the birth of each of my children or whatever. Sarah, you could probably have a heyday with me, and so could Freud, but.

Guest [00:35:45] So I don't feel like I have a special thing that my husband doesn't have, or I feel like we each have special things, but they don't have anything to do with the fact that I'm a mother and he's a father. So, you know, this would just be, like. It'd be something that we would share, and sometimes I would be, you know, I might baptize, you know, one of my kids. They're all baptized, so that doesn't matter. Totally hypothetical. I might do that. And then another time, it would be his turn to ordain somebody, and it would just be according to where we felt, and we would discuss it and we would negotiate it.

Guest [00:36:14] So for me, I just really feel like my desire to participate in the church and to grow spiritually isn't mediated by my gender. And I know in many ways that that's. That that's not mainstream. I know. You know, I'm familiar with the family proclamation, but for me personally, I just feel like people should be able to grow and develop the talents and have the experiences and have spiritual gifts that they want. And I don't think that those have to do with gender, so.

Personal Versus Official Religious Authority

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Okay. All right. Well, so if it's okay, I guess I have some other questions I'd like to. Is there anything that someone's dying to say before we close out and go to something else?

Kate Kelly [00:37:06] I just wanted to add. This is. Kate, I just wanted to add in that I think we should go back to your ward and Logan John. And I think we should think about the questions we're asking the women in your ward who would be so scandalized by our efforts.

Kate Kelly [00:37:27] And I'm just like, dying to see what they would say about. All right. What do you think about ordained women, women who are asking for the priesthood? What do you think about a woman just giving a blessing at home? What do you think about a woman just without any authority or without the sanction of the church, laying her hands on her children's head and giving them a school blessing? What do you think about a woman giving a blessing of healing? I know that happened in the history of the church, but what do people think about women just doing that now?

Kate Kelly [00:38:00] And I'm super interested to know what the answer would be. But my guess would be that people would say the exercising blessings on your own at home, just, you know, what you said earlier was going rogue would be far more scandalizing and radical.

Neylan McBaine [00:38:23] A surprising number of women are not familiar with the fact that women did healing blessings prior to World War II. And when asked if this changed their impression of women's power and access to God and God's relationship to God, it did dramatically improve their vision of themselves. And when asked if they would participate in something like that, if there were any sort of cultural endorsement that this was okay, they overwhelmingly said that they would love to.

Kate Kelly [00:39:00] Cultural endorsement is key.

Sara Vraneš [00:39:01] Exactly.

Neylan McBaine [00:39:01] That's what I was just going to say. The whole thing is about creating that dialogue where someone, you know, someone like Sarah says, I'm doing this. I'm a midwife, and I'm doing this. And. And it might not be formal, but I have that power. And claiming that power in the actions that she's taking today in telling those stories, that's what's going to Change that. And I honestly do not believe. I guess this is the crux of the whole thing. I don't believe that that's something that needs to come from top down for us to be able to tap into as women. I'm a firm believer that if we tell those stories and we say it's okay on a grassroots level, then that change will trickle up.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] So I just have to jump in for a second. There's a couple things that I'm dying to say. One, Neylan, is that for someone who's 44 or older in this church, and you don't even have to be that old like me to maybe feel these things.

Neylan McBaine [00:39:57] Oh, like you? I thought you were.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] No, I'm 44.

Guest [00:40:00] You're a little off.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] I'm 44. Happily, I'm 44. I remember a time at BYU where professors were. Female professors were simply saying things such as, I'm going to pray to mother in heaven in private. And they were being denied continuing status. They're being threatened with this fellowship or excommunication.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] So I, on the one hand, love what you're saying and what Sarah's saying, and I think it's beautiful and courageous. And on the other hand, I've got this trauma above my historical memory that shows that when you step out of line from what the Brethren have prescribed, you get slapped down very hard.

John Dehlin [00:40:44] But this leads to the second point that I want to say, and that's that what I'm seeing here in this panel is something very ironic, because if. If we were going to throw superficial labels at this panel, we would say that Heather and Kate represent the more liberal and progressive side of the panel, and Sarah and Neylan represent the more conservative. But that's not what we're hearing, because what we're hearing Heather and Kate say is, oh, but if you go to this ward in Logan, you're going to find everybody is really conservative. And what we're hearing Neylan and Sarah say is, no, the church doesn't just change top down, but members have to become.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] I'll just use the term radical enough to. To assert their own sort of power and claim their own spaces. And then the Brethren are going to be prompted to get the revelation that they need to then even accelerate the advancement of the culture faster. So I'm hearing a bit of a more progressive, radical view from Sarah and Neylan in some ways. And I'm hearing.

Neylan McBaine [00:41:45] I mean, I would. I think it's more. I think it's more accurate just to. To identify as maybe the Top, you know, from the top, rather than grassroots mobilization.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] But for me, grassroots is radical in this church.

Neylan McBaine [00:42:01] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] Okay, for me. But that's just because I think I had a very fundamentalist kind of orthodox upbringing through ces that makes me feel very reticent and scared about asserting my own power, claiming my own space.

Kate Kelly [00:42:18] Well, and I think, I think this goes to a larger point that we were going to address at some point in the podcast, which is, you know, asking for an officially sanctioned form of authority versus asserting your own form of authority or power. And I think what we're talking about are two different things, and I don't necessarily think we disagree that women

Sara Vraneš [00:42:46] should

Kate Kelly [00:42:47] tap into that power, like Neylan is saying, and assert themselves in all new and brave ways and, and return to the history, the powerful history that Sarah has mentioned, of women in the early church and even women in, you know, the 60s and 70s, in the current, in, you know, Relief Society as it exists, as it existed, then I don't think we would argue that that's a bad thing or that that shouldn't be done. But I think what we're saying is it's not only that, that we're interested in. We're interested in, you know, clerical, fiscal, ritual, decision making, power and equality in the church. And I'm, I'm not reticent to use that word.

Kate Kelly [00:43:37] And I think that in all of those ways that I can see, none of that will be remedied by, you know, this, this soft claiming of a personal experience, which I think is important and which is a power to transform us in our individual lives, but doesn't change us as a body. And that's not something that a 12 year old girl can see when she looks up on the stand. That's not something that my niece can cling to. You know, and Neylan wrote an article which is quite good and fair, talking about people who are leaving the church. And I think a lot of the statistics that we're not talking about are women, particularly single women, who are leaving the church at the rate of 70%, and the concerns that they have aren't going to be alleviated by exercising

Neylan McBaine [00:44:41] the

Kate Kelly [00:44:41] personal power of prayer.

Guest [00:44:45] Yeah, I would say the same thing. So, I mean, I think the distinction between the power versus the performance is interesting, almost kind of in an academic way. Same with the private and public. I think that's important. But to me, you know, women don't have the ability to do any of those public things. And that's, again, I'm coming at it again. As a mom, I would not be able to say to my kids,

Neylan McBaine [00:45:17] yeah,

Guest [00:45:19] you're able to do this where other people can see you, where it matters, where it counts. Officially. Stuart, to my son Kennedy. And Marin, you guys are. But you're welcome to. You know, we can do all kinds of awesome here at home where no one will see it. I mean, that makes it feel secret and, like, it needs to be hidden. And so, yeah, in a way that does seem kind of more subversive. Almost like we need to be sneaking. Like, I'll tell my kids. Here's just a silly example. Okay, you guys, you know that there's stuff that we say at home that, like. Or what happens at the dinner table stays at the dinner table, like.

Guest [00:45:56] Or we said this silly thing, but, like, don't go to school and, you know, tell your teachers that I said this. Or I mean, just sometimes, like a potty talk. Or don't tell that fart joke or whatever. You know what I mean?

Guest [00:46:08] But. And that's because we're kind of trying to say, you know, yeah, it's that public, private distinction. But I could not. I would feel that I had zero integrity, me personally, as a parent, for me to say that to my kids, we can do these things in secret and at home that aren't official and that no one's keeping track of and that are still awesome. And we can have really special private experiences. And you can do that, too, because you're a girl.

Guest [00:46:35] You can't do any of the public things. But Stuart can because he's a boy. I couldn't say it. And frankly, my girls would not abide it. They wouldn't buy it. Even if I sold it in the fanciest packaging. They would not. They just wouldn't buy it.

Neylan McBaine [00:46:49] But let me clarify. I'm talking about something a lot bigger than just prayer or home rituals. I'm talking about giving all of our women, single, married, young or old, the permission to use personal revelation and to draw closer to the spirit and empower them to act on whatever that spiritual prompting tells them to do. So that they can have big lives that are not hampered by any cultural practice from the church that comes from this claim that they don't have the power that they need to go out and make the most of themselves. So, I mean, when you put it in those terms. Heather. Yeah, I can't.

Neylan McBaine [00:47:30] I couldn't. That's not something that I would feel comfortable with either. What I'm talking about is, you know, single women who have been told that you know, they need to curtail their education or their career because, you know, that guy might just show up and they want to be prepared to be, you know, to just retire to that at home life. Those are cultural practices that I think are insidious and that undermine the power that women have every single day. And we're doing it to our married women as well, where we're not encouraging them to take advantage of, of the opportunities they have today, to follow their dreams and to follow the opportunities that modern technology offers them.

Neylan McBaine [00:48:14] And that personal revelation can point them to. All of that is wrapped up in this. And so when I'm talking about claiming that power, I'm talking about claiming a big life, claiming that personal revelation so that our women are no longer culturally stuck, stymied by any expectation to limit themselves or their potential.

Guest [00:48:37] Yeah, I love that. But you see that then sort of separate from or external from the church.

Neylan McBaine [00:48:42] It sounds like I do, because they're simply different. They're entirely different paradigms. They're entirely different kingdoms. They're entirely different structures. The church is not going to work as a sort of capitalist society where the harder I work, the greater reward I get in terms of public recognition. It does not work that way. And I'm comfortable with acknowledging that and admitting that there is a sacred space in my heart for the way the Church works, that I enjoy its separateness from the world and that I treasure what I am offered there.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] What do we. I think I remember Maxine talking about not being interested in male priesthood, but, but being interested in female priesthood. Can somebody explain to me what that means, what Maxine might mean or what other people who share Maxine's views might mean by that? I know I'm asking people to speculate, but I think you, you, you sisters know the argument better than I do. Can anybody articulate?

Neylan McBaine [00:49:59] Well, she's committed to the idea that the current church structure has equivalent orders built in at every level and that those orders simply need to be excavated because they were. They're dormant now. She refers to the Relief Society Board. On the general level, those women who we hardly see, can't name don't know what they do. She refers to the wives of the general authorities who, you know, when their husbands are given a long list of responsibilities, are themselves given blank pages and told to go fill up their time with meaningful service. And, and I think that she feels that those are not, you know, those are dormant, they're not being taken advantage of right now, but they have the potential to be orders of similar Importance to the men's.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] Okay. But I think I heard a slow uptake because there's no one on the panel that sort of.

Neylan McBaine [00:51:08] Well, only Maxine can.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] Yeah, yeah,

Neylan McBaine [00:51:12] I hesitate to.

Kate Kelly [00:51:14] We've heard from a lot of women, not just Maxine, but other women who think who for them, the concept of priesthood is so inextricably combined with maleness that to imagine women exercising the power of the priesthood, it should be a priesthood death hood or something that's specifically for women.

Kate Kelly [00:51:43] We've heard that from other women. And I'm not sure if that's what Maxine would say it sounds like. No, but I think that's highly problematic in a lot of ways. And I agree with Nayland in that we need to decouple, you know, a lot of things. And one of those things, in my opinion, is that, and actually this was talked about in general conference too, that the priesthood is not men, that the priesthood is separate, and that it's the power of God and it's not the men who hold it.

Kate Kelly [00:52:22] So currently men hold the priesthood, but they aren't the priesthood. And so I think maybe that's part of what, what we've heard from some women.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] Okay. Just to be clear, it wasn't so much that I wanted people to tell us what, what Maxine thinks. It was more this had been highlighted as something to talk about male versus female priesthood. And I just wanted someone to be able to articulate the idea and maybe give a sense for how prevalent or non prevalent it is. That's, that's what I was trying to get at. Just so people.

Kate Kelly [00:52:55] Yeah, and so I like that description. And I think, I don't think that's extremely prevalent. I think some people feel that way, but I would say most people who closely identify the priesthood with being a man or maleness would probably not then advocate for a female priesthood. Not yet, at least.

Guest [00:53:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:53:20] All right, Sistren, ladies, however you prefer to be addressed, this has been a wonderful dialogue. Little over an hour, but I'm super happy with what we've done so far. I have a really quick question for Kate and the question is this. And Neylan, I don't want to mischaracterize your position, but I'm just going to, for me, in my kind of universalistic streak, what I've heard, if I'm going to have to reduce it to something very simplistic, it's just that if non Mormons have power that equates to the number one, then non endowed Mormons have a power that equates to the number two, and then endowed Mormons have a power that equates to the number three.

John Dehlin [00:54:09] In other words, there's an ascending hierarchy of God's power that's lowest outside the church, higher if you're in the church, but not endowed, and then highest if you're, if you're in the church, if you're in doubt. Do you share that sort of hierarchy of God's power sort of perspective as well, Kate?

Kate Kelly [00:54:30] Well, I think, again, this goes back to our earlier discussion about talking about the power of God versus them, the, you know, the authority to act in his name and the keys. And I think, you know, I actually don't even think that non Mormons don't have the power of God. I think maybe some people would, but I think that all people on earth have access to, like we were talking about, you know, to say a prayer.

Kate Kelly [00:55:01] But I honestly believe that the priesthood is separate and apart from that, and that that is a transformative power. It is real, and it is something that can make us greater than ourselves. So I don't know about any sort of hierarchy or greater or lesser, all those, you know, the ones and the twos. But I do think that it's different.

Kate Kelly [00:55:26] And I do believe in the priesthood power, that when you get a priesthood blessing, it's not the same as someone just saying a prayer, that those two things, that the ordinance in and of itself carries weight and is real.

Kate Kelly [00:55:43] And, you know, I actually, I feel like it's so funny because in a lot of these conversations, and in this conversation in particular, I think most people would paint me as this, like, you know, radical or extremist. But in many, in many ways, I find myself much more traditional than other people.

Kate Kelly [00:56:04] And I, it's, I think that those things can be inverted so quickly. So I, I think in many ways, I'm much, much more conservative and traditional than some women. And I think in this particular realm, I think that the priesthood is real. And I think some people who don't advocate for the, not necessarily the participants in this conversation, but women we've heard from who say, I just don't want more duties or I just have enough to do already. How dare you add one more thing on my plate. I just don't think those women think about the priesthood and believe in it in the same way that I do. And so that was a long answer, and the short answer would be yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] Okay. All right, very, very quickly. Back in my BYU days, women were getting busted for praying to Mother in Heaven. Are any of the panelists comfortable talking about their position on that today.

Sara Vraneš [00:57:12] I think that would make for a whole another podcast.

John Dehlin [00:57:18] Okay. All right.

Kate Kelly [00:57:19] Do you have three more hours?

John Dehlin [00:57:21] No, but I mean, it can be, yes, I think it's okay, or no, it's not.

Neylan McBaine [00:57:25] Well, President Hinckley did say that we shouldn't do it as a practice and simply because we don't know enough. And so, I mean, okay, that's not an expression of my opinion in any

Kate Kelly [00:57:38] way, but I. Yeah, I mean, it's not that I agree or disagree that was said, so I confirm a factual assertion. But I think one thing that I can say is I think that opening up ordination to women and giving women the priesthood would really help us understand and explore the role that Heavenly Mother plays because she is a God and therefore acts through the power of God. And that's something that we, you know, we. It's such a rich and amazing doctrine that we have. And it's so, so, so soothing to know as a woman that there is not only a God who is my father, there is a God who is my mother. That I think opening up the existing power structure of the church and opening up the priesthood to women could be a conduit to us to further explore and cherish and learn about that relationship.

Praying to Heavenly Mother and Activism

John Dehlin [00:58:55] Okay. And Nyla Na, Sarah, I think I would have heard you guys say is you're not super comfortable talking about your views on praying to Mother Heaven. Is that mischaracterizing?

Guest [00:59:05] Oh,

Neylan McBaine [00:59:08] mother in heaven is a very different issue for me personally. And honestly, all I can say is that it's inextricable from my own relationship with my parents. I have, I'm, you know, extremely close to my mother. Have never felt like I needed an additional mother figure in my life. However, with the absence of a father, that relationship with a heavenly father was very treasured for me. So, you know, I can see very easily why it would be comforting and fulfilling to be able to have a relationship with a female deity. And I am not sad, but just I wish that we could play up more the fact that we are the only Western religion that actually believes in a female deity.

Neylan McBaine [00:59:57] That's actually extremely radical. But on the other hand, I fully accept the fact that we know very little about her then that beyond knowing that she exists, starting to speculate about, you know, the speculations that naturally follow when you talk about her. You know, they get into some weird stuff about. About, like how she birthed us all and everything. And I just haven't liked the way those conversations have Gone. And so.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] Or are there multiple wives?

Neylan McBaine [01:00:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. All that.

Kate Kelly [01:00:29] So

Neylan McBaine [01:00:32] it's never been something that I've felt a spiritual drive to find out more about.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] Okay, yeah.

Sara Vraneš [01:00:39] And, John, I will say with that, again, I feel like so many of my thoughts go back to the birthing realm, and I feel like that is a. That is a female realm, and so my thoughts are directed to a female divine in those situations. And also, keeping in mind that, you know, as Mormons, we believe that God is an exalted man and woman together. And so that. I think that is a conduit for me. Yes. Somehow addressing this female presence in my prayers, depending on the situation, I feel like there's some situations where I want to talk to my mom, some when I want to talk to my dad, and that applies with my heavenly parents as well.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] Okay, okay. All right, one last question before we end with the final question. So two more questions. The second to last question was, Neylan, you mentioned, mentioned at the very beginning the question of, is ordained women setting women back in the church? And I know that that's a huge question, but it, you know, would it be unfair to summarize, sort of Sarah and Neylan as saying we're going to achieve more by being discreet, by being diplomatic, and by being somewhat astute and political and making small steps that don't alienate the powers that be versus asking for bigger, larger things that tend to create resistance? Is that a fair way to describe your two approaches?

Neylan McBaine [01:02:14] You know, I am trying to work from the inside, both in my volunteer efforts and my professional efforts. And I'm very familiar with the way these things work, and I am committed to that approach from. From years of seeing the way things work. This is not. You know, I think it was Laurie who said in the first podcast, when you asked this question, she quoted Martin Luther King's letter from Birmingham jail. This is not a civil rights movement. It just simply does not work that way. And as much as we would like it to, and as much as we want to use the same tools that we've found so effective in this country, especially over the past 50, 100 years, I remain skeptical that those same tools are going to have the same effect in the church.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Sarah, do you have anything to add before I ask Heather and Kate to respond?

Sara Vraneš [01:03:09] No, no, I'm right on board with Neylan on that.

John Dehlin [01:03:11] All right, Heather,

Guest [01:03:15] whether we're helping or hurting.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] Yeah. Whether. Asking for things too big, I make things worse.

Neylan McBaine [01:03:21] I should say, why are you hurt? Why are you helping? How do you believe that you're helping.

Guest [01:03:26] Heather, how do I believe that ordained women is helping?

Neylan McBaine [01:03:30] Yeah, well, I mean, I'm just rephrasing John's question so you don't have to, like, say, yes, I think we are helping.

Guest [01:03:36] Yeah, I think we're helping, or I wouldn't do it. I have no desire to, you know, harm the church to stymie growth. You know, I'm not. I'm not interested in that at all. For me, I would say it has to do with two things. Again, it has to do with the church. My participation in this has to do with the church, which I think does change and will change. Although I've said, you know, I've said this publicly before, I don't think this change will take place. I probably won't be able to see it. That's. That's sort of my skeptical moment. But I will say that it's helping me and that so.

Guest [01:04:09] So it's about the church and it's about me. And for. And for me, this is. This is something important. I need to do this. I feel like my private self, my public self, or my beliefs and my behavior are matching up for the first time in a long time. So I feel sort of a sense of wholeness and integrity that I haven't felt for a long time. So it's important to me personally. I wouldn't do it if I thought that it was hurting the church, but I don't. I feel like this is an important issue. We need to talk about it. And I'm tired of being afraid of speaking publicly about issues like this. And so, you know, I'll carry on.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] Heather, some people are going to say, when you say it's about me, they're going to say, well, that's a very narcissistic kind of endeavor. So I want to give you a chance to sort of respond to those criticisms that will likely come. What would you say?

Guest [01:05:05] Well, I said it was about the church, and I said it's also about me personally. So if someone wants to tell me that my own spiritual. That worrying about my own spiritual path and development is narcissistic, I would say that was absolutely anti Mormon. It's me caring about my spiritual development is. Is like, the entire purpose of being on this planet. For me, that's why we're here.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] Perfect. All right, Kate, do you have a quick response before we close with the final question?

Kate Kelly [01:05:35] Well, as the founder of Ordained Women, I would say I think we're helping. And I think, you know, I think what Heather has Said is really valuable that, you know, a secret meeting with someone who has connections to leaders in the church for reasons of birth or employment or whatever those meetings are, has no effect on the masses of women in the church and does not allow us to be our authentic selves and spirit, speak our authentic truth, and shed fear in the way that the Ordain Women campaign has done. And everyone can agree and has agreed on this podcast that we've opened up the conversation in a new way.

Kate Kelly [01:06:21] So I actually am very unconcerned with how those secret back conversations are carrying on and sallying forth, because I recently had a conversation with Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, and she said, you know, it's actually the case in the last 30 years is that the church for women and gender inequality in the church has increased and women are less visible than they were, you know, in the 1960s and 1970s, and women have less autonomy. And so I'm just not sure what the benefit of those efforts have been. In my opinion, the church and the women's position in the church has taken a slide back in a lot of ways.

Kate Kelly [01:07:07] And I think what we're doing is claiming that space for ourselves, and we're allowing ourselves the space to talk and to agitate and to claim our identities as faithful Mormon women and also women who openly advocate for the most fundamental and most important change, which is the ordination of women. And I would also say, when I was on my mission, we did a lot of door knocking.

Kate Kelly [01:07:35] I was in Spain, and you would go to a building and you would take the elevator to the top, and you would go down floor by floor by floor, literally knocking on every single door. And you tried a bunch of different things. You would sort of target doors that looked like they had holiday decorations because they might be Christian, or you would try a funny line when they opened the door, or you would, you know, we had all different kinds of knocking, and you honestly did not know what was going to work. You were just following the Spirit as best you could and just doing your best, putting one foot in front of the other and knocking on each individual door and hoping that what you did was would connect you with a person who was looking for the gospel and it would change their lives.

Kate Kelly [01:08:22] And to me, that's what I see ordained women as. And that isn't to say that other people can't knock and seek in other ways and for different things. But that also doesn't mean that we can't do what we feel and that our spiritual journey is taking us.

Kate Kelly [01:08:40] And I think that what we're doing with ordained women is for us as a group and us as a collective, but also us as individuals. And it's beautiful and it's powerful, and it is a transformative, joyful experience. And if you go on the website, if you go on ordainwomen.org you will read the words and see the photos of people who have been saved by this journey.

Neylan McBaine [01:09:11] Kate, I didn't mean to laugh when you started to talk about knocking doors in Spain, but my husband served in Spain as well, and he just tells the funniest stories about knocking doors. And his punchline at the end is, of course, that he started at the top and he got down to the bottom, and it had only been seven minutes.

Final Thoughts and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [01:09:29] All right, ladies. Well, I've loved this conversation. I think I just want to close by. We'll start with Sarah, then we'll go to Kate, then we'll go to Neylan, then we'll go to Heather. And I just want to hear whatever final words you want to share. We had talked about functional empowerment as a closing theme, but I don't want to limit people to that as the theme. And just ask if you had some final words to close out this discussion. What are some final sentiments that you want to leave with our list listeners?

Sara Vraneš [01:10:01] So, Sarah, yeah, thank you. In closing, I mean, it actually piggybacks off of what Kate has just said that I believe that I love that we all feel that we are empowered enough to be asking and seeking and knocking. And I love that, you know, being 2013, we're all able to seek and to knock in our own individual way whatever best suits us. I think that's a really beautiful thing. And I, you know, I love the ninth article of Faith and, you know, saying that God will reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And I feel like the priesthood is no exception to that.

Sara Vraneš [01:10:51] And we definitely there's more to be revealed. And I will do my part to continue to have these conversations with. I feel like everyone around me. This is brought up on a daily basis and to continue to seek and to knock and to do what I can in my own realm to further this conversation about women and ordination and the power to act in God's name.

John Dehlin [01:11:20] All right, thanks, Sarah. Kate. Usually gave a really good statement before I. But I don't pressure on you if there's other things you want to say.

Kate Kelly [01:11:31] I never have a shortage of opinions.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] Okay.

Kate Kelly [01:11:36] So I just, I. And I think that's beautiful. I love that we've had this conversation And I really appreciate Neylan and Sarah, who's a dear friend, and obviously Heather, who's on my side and by my side, Heather, great job. But I just. I love this conversation, and I love that it brings out women's voices, and really, that's at the base of what we're doing. Like I said before, when I look at the stand, do I see women? When I hear talks in conference, do I hear women? Do I see that? We operate with total parity within the church? And we may see different ways of arriving at that goal, but that's what we all want, because that's what we feel in our hearts is true. And we've been taught that we can know the truth of all things.

Sara Vraneš [01:12:39] And.

Kate Kelly [01:12:40] And part of the truth of all things is that we have a heavenly Father and a heavenly Mother. Part of the truth of all things is that women and men, brothers and sisters, husbands and wives, sons and daughters, are equal before the sight of God. And we know that, and we feel it. And what we're trying to do is embody that with our actions. And for me, ordain women is a prayer. We talk about claiming our voice and owning our prayer. And Susan B. Anthony, one of my historical heroes, said, I do pray. I pray every day of my life that women and men will be brought to equality. And that is what ordained women is. To me, it is a prayer, and it is the most sincere and faithful act that I can offer to the Lord.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] Thank you, Kate. Neylan,

Neylan McBaine [01:13:46] thank you. I feel like I need to get up and say, you know, that I'm following the musical number in Sacrament Meeting, because that was very moving. Kate, thank you. And I'm humbled to follow it. And, of course, I would echo a lot of what's been said. I think, you know, the only thing that I, like, I would like to be heard as adding is simply that I would hope that we don't diminish or disqualify or glance over the beauty of what we have already, both in our structure and in the spiritual gifts that we have as women and the spiritual accesses that we have as women.

Neylan McBaine [01:14:33] And I have felt in my own life that the access to personal revelation has been something that has empowered me to reach beyond what I think I would have otherwise if I didn't have the gospel in my life. And I would like to see more of our women, both doctrinally and culturally, claiming the gospel as an excuse to broaden their experiences and broaden their own skill sets and opportunities and not to claim a more diminutive role or to claim.

Neylan McBaine [01:15:20] Less. Less spiritual power simply because they. They don't have these administrative rights. So I would love to be able to change, I think, more our culture and our practices rather than the. Than the doctrine or the structure as it currently exists.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] Thank you, Neylan.

Guest [01:15:45] Heather, I shouldn't have the last word.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] Someone's gotta.

Guest [01:15:52] I would just say that, you know, one of the things I love about Mormonism is just that kind of tradition and legacy of hard work. And I've had just many examples, I have in my life of Mormon women, you know, who do that, who truly embody work, you know, good Christian service that we talk about that all the time in Texas. Right. There's all kinds of things that are Christian in Texas that don't need to be called Christian elsewhere, you know, but just really just good. Such good people that work hard. My mom told me recently. My mom's not super, super thrilled with my participation with ordained women, but she told me recently, well, you know, we just, you know, Mormon women in the church, we just put our shoulders to the wheel. She actually said it in school Spanish, because everybody in my family speaks Spanish.

Neylan McBaine [01:16:41] But.

Guest [01:16:43] And, you know, I'm grateful for that. She, you know, we've lived in East Texas, and she was a Relief Society president. She was a visiting teacher, and she would, you know, get in her station wagon with her visiting teaching companion with, you know, me and the woman's son in the back, you know, not buckled into car seats because this was, you know, almost 40 years ago and drive hundreds of miles to go and visit and serve. And so I'm grateful for that legacy, and I feel. I don't mean to. You know, I don't want to overstate what I'm doing, but I feel like I'm trying to participate in that kind of.

Guest [01:17:18] In that legacy as well. I don't feel like what I'm doing is harmful or destructive at all. I feel like I'm following the example of lots of really amazing Mormon women who have done different things, but who have found ways to. To, you know, to make waves in their lives and to make their world and other people's worlds a better place. So that's what I hope that we're all doing, and I appreciate everyone's. Everyone's participation here.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] Pon tu hombro a lalit con favor. Right?

Neylan McBaine [01:17:49] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] All right, well, Sarah Vrains, Neylan McBain, Heather Olsen Beale, and Kate Kelly, I think you're fabulous, and thank you for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Sara Vraneš [01:18:01] Thank you, John.

Neylan McBaine [01:18:02] Thanks, John.

Kate Kelly [01:18:03] Thanks so much for having us. And look forward to a profile by the one and only host of Mormon stories podcast on ordainwomen.org

John Dehlin [01:18:14] all right, ladies, thank you so much. Thank you. I say neither, neither, neither and either, neither. Let's call the whole thing off.

Neylan McBaine [01:18:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] You like potato, I like potato. You like tomato, I like tomato? Potato, potato, tomato, tomato.

Guest [01:18:43] Let's call the whole thing off.

Kate Kelly [01:18:47] My. Oh. If we call the whole thing off,

Guest [01:18:52] then we must party.

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