Welcome to the Mormon Newscast

Bill Reel [00:00:00] Welcome to the groundbreaking news program that delves into the heart of Mormonism. Your weekly window into the unique intersections of news, history and culture that resonate with the tapestry of Mormonism. So whether you're tuning in from the heart of Utah or joining us from around the world, your favorite news program starts now, where news meets insight and the stories of our faith unfold.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:00:24] Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Mormon Newscast. I'm Rebecca Bibliateca. It is Monday, January 22, and I am joined by our illustrious panel of newscasters. We have rfm. How are you tonight?

RFM [00:00:38] I'm great. Thank you so much, Rebecca. And today's date is indeed January 22nd.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:00:43] Yes, RFM corrects all dates. Everyone be careful. And welcome John De Lynn.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Thanks. Good to be here, Rebecca.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:00:50] Exactly. Brady Bunch. And of course, Bill Real. How are you this evening, man?

Bill Reel [00:00:54] Life is good and I'm excited for the program tonight.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:00:57] Yeah, we have a lot of really interesting stories and we are here committed to bring you all the top interesting information in the morm landscape from this week. Now, before we get started, I have to give a little shout out to a group of very hard working missionaries who I have been informed watch this podcast regularly in the field. And I'm supposed to say busters go brazy. I don't know what it means. They just told me to say it. I hope I didn't just swear or get them in trouble. But welcome. It's nice to know that missionaries are watching the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] I think the church should be very, very concerned with that information.

RFM [00:01:33] I've notified the mission president. He's probably watching too.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:01:37] I can't think of anything more educational to young missionaries in this podcast, can you? I think it's great. All right, let's go to our first slide and review very quickly the stories that we're going to be talking about tonight. We're going to be talking about the new female Latter Day Prophet has been called. We're going to be talking about LDS wards sharing meeting space with LGBTQ congregations. Also an update, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. We'll be discussing the Ten Commandments back in the schools. Utah, is it the online wedding capital? And also, can clergy really report abuse? So we'll start with our first story and I believe, Bill, that is your story at the top of the hour.

First Female Prophet of Community of Christ

Bill Reel [00:02:17] Yeah, I'm, I'm super excited to, to see this little video clip clip play that I put together. But it has to do with a

John Dehlin [00:02:25] new

Bill Reel [00:02:27] prophet going on in the land, so.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] All right, let's roll the tape.

Bill Reel [00:02:33] Both the community of Christ, previously known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and the Utah based LDS Church trace their origins back to the same faith founded by Joseph Smith in the early to mid-1800s, but their paths couldn't be further apart. In recent weeks we have seen Latter Day Saint women in the San Francisco Bay Area express their pain and hurt after being ordered off the stand. One Latter Day Saint woman said, they, meaning the church higher ups wanted us for the work, but they don't want us to be visible. And recently we saw the church release new standards for starting a ward or a stake with no mention of the women needed in order to do so. In a church that bans women from serving in the top decision making levels of leadership at both the local level and the higher echelons of the church, and a leadership that has never had a black person as an apostle, one can easily sense the lack of diversity and perspective has created a lot of blind spots for an alleged prophetic leadership. Blind spots that have its leaders not sensing the right thing to do, such as when it commits financial malfeasance, nor the strength or integrity to speak up or make drastic changes when those leaders get caught. Instead, it has the appearance of a good old boys club where 15 senior white men get to lie or cheat whenever they want with nothing but silence or cover up when it's done or the public finds out. But as I look over at the community of Christ separated by 165 years of being on a different path in a historic move for the community of Christ, the progressive faith community recently witnessed the appointment of its first female President and prophet, Stacey Cram. This watershed moment demonstrates how far the community of Christ has progressed, not only in terms of inclusivity and gender equality, but also in having the fortitude and humility to make significant changes that ran counter to the foundational structures, even at the risk of losing orthodox believers to truly do what is right and let the consequence follow. Stacy Cram previously served in the First Presidency of the Community of Christ. Her extensive background includes serving as the Presiding Bishop, as a member of the Council of Twelve Apostles, and as Administrator for the Southwest Pacific Region. Stacy holds educational qualifications including a Bachelor's degree in General Engineering and a Master's degree in Organizational Management. She further pursued a Master's in Religion from Graceland University and earned a PhD in organization and Management from Capella University. Prior to her full time ministry, Stacy worked as a flight test engineer for the United States Air Force. Cram's Call to Prophet President will be presented for consideration at the 2025 Community of Christ World Conference. If approved and supported, she will be ordained at that time as the first female prophet president of their church in all of its history. So tonight I look across that divide that started 165 years ago with a little hope that such incredible kinds of changes are in fact possible here. Closer to home, the kind of healthy changes that come when that faith decides, and it almost certainly requires that its very leaders are the ones deciding, that they will no longer tolerate deflecting accountability for past mistakes, no longer tolerate unhealthy power structures that punch down, no longer tolerate unethical behaviors and dishonesty among its ranks, choosing instead to be accountable to the stewardship they had in fact been given, choosing to welcome perspectives, constructive criticism. Only then can this church, or any system for that matter, begin to take serious steps in doing what is right so that a new day breaks, hailing a future of freedom and light lightened by hope. Soon they'll cease to be galling. Truth goeth onward, then do what is right. Back to you, Rebecca.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:07:52] Oh, thank you for that, Bill. That was a very thorough description of what's happening and it is a really exciting story and it's one that I think a lot of us have been following, especially in the interfaith community. I know our good friend Steve Pinecker from Mormon Book Reviews. He's been reporting on this and podcasting on this for over a year now and has been predicting, as have a lot of people, that it possibly would be a woman president prophet. So that's really exciting. Rfm, what are your thoughts on this?

RFM [00:08:21] I understand Steve Pineaker broke the story. Is that true? Rebecca?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:08:25] You know, there was some talk of that. I know the day before the announcement he did say there would be breaking news, so. Yes, I think he does. He definitely has his finger on the pulse of the community of Christ.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Let's say that someone's poking the bear.

RFM [00:08:41] Sorry. Anyway, anyway, what are my thoughts on that? Well, I think that nobody can really reasonably say that Stacy Cram does not have the qualifications for the job. You know, she's not being put there just because she's a woman. She's got a lot of background, a lot of experience as Bill went over. But I do think that the response from the LDS Church will be to look at Ms. Cram being the new president and prophet, if indeed she gets the votes, which we'll see. But she could, and she's obviously already been an apostle, for crying out loud. The LDS Church will use this as a cautionary tale as to what horrible things can happen when you don't have the real priesthood keys.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:09:22] That's a very good point. John, do you have any thoughts?

John Dehlin [00:09:24] I got a ton of thoughts. First off, I want to make sure my audio is not too loud. Is that better? I turned it down a little bit. Does matter seem too loud?

RFM [00:09:36] It's okay by me.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Okay.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:09:38] Yeah.

Community of Christ History and Women in Leadership

John Dehlin [00:09:38] So a couple things. When I first started Mormon Stories, it was so fun to discover the history of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or Community of Christ, and to see that, you know, a lot of the things that we're just grappling with now as the modern Mormon church they were dealing with in the 60s and 70s, whether it's admitting that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, which meant that they had to apologize and say that they were wrong, whether it was eventually allowing women or. Or people of color to the priesthood. They beat us on all those fronts. They changed their name to be less Mormony, and they started distancing themselves from the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. They started adding revelations to the Doctrine and Covenants that reflected more modern sensibilities. Just a really inspiring example of a church that actually can admit and, you know, follow the steps of repentance and fix things and improve things. So I just love Community of Christ, which is their new name. I do want to say I'm sad to see Steve Veazey, their former prophet, leave. One of my favorite Mormon stories interviews of all time is when I got to interview the prophet of Community of Christ, Steve Veazey. Just a super thoughtful, wise, kind man. One of my favorite Mormons ever, John Hamer, who's a gay, you know, Mormon who resigned from the church. He ended up leaving the LDS Church and eventually converting to Community of Christ. And he and his partners lead the Toronto Congregation for Community of Christ as a gay ex Mormon. So just so many cool things. I love. I love Community of Christ. I'm so happy about this. I do want to add Bill real well. First, Dan Vogel's in the house. He made the comment that Community of Christ is the Democratic wing of Mormonism. But he also said, great presentation, Bill.

Speaker E [00:11:39] And.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] And then Theodore says, Bill is amazing. So I just wanted to make sure, Bill, you know, that people are really appreciating the videos that you put together.

Speaker F [00:11:48] Love it.

Bill Reel [00:11:49] Can I say one other thing here too, Rebecca, just to add on top of this, which is I think Mormonism has the capacity to change the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the LDS faction has the capacity to change everything, and honestly, practically has. Meanwhile, it would want to hold the story. It hasn't really changed anything, but it's changed almost everything. The one thing that time will tell if it has the ability to do is to disrupt the power structures of these 15 almost entirely Caucasian men passing the power down from generation to generation through family lines with a ton of money and property being stored away, if they're willing to relinquish that to those who are outside of those family lines and those who are outside of being senior Caucasian males. And I have a lot of hesitation. But stories like Stacey Cram give me hope that a faith can make significant adjustments, and decades later, those adjustments can show up as an unhealthy church that's in denial of its history, becoming a healthy church that's fully accepting of real values that make a positive difference in people's lives.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:13:14] Yeah, those are excellent observations. And I was also just thinking, isn't it interesting that they have a mechanism, as they should, within their church, so that someone who's a prophet can step away if needed? Whether it is age or whatever, there's a mechanism in their organization that that can just happen seamless. Another person who's very qualified can step forward and it just continues. I just love that because we have nothing like that in, you know, the Brighamite branch of the Mormon Church. We don't. They're there forever.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] And I don't know if we said this anywhere else, but they don't like to use the term Mormon weirdly. So even though we build this as, you know, new Mormon female prophet, that we want to acknowledge the correction by community of Christ folks that they haven't liked the term Mormon for a long, long time. And, and, and so, you know, please be thoughtful not to use that term with them, you know, if you want to be respectful of them.

RFM [00:14:11] What is it with the term Mormon? Everybody's running away from the word Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] Not me, not you. These guys. These guys run away.

RFM [00:14:20] I'm Radio Free Mormon. I embrace that as part of my identity.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:14:24] That is very funny. All of us have podcasts with the word Mormonism in it.

Speaker E [00:14:27] Right?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:14:27] That. And so I actually reached out to somebody in senior leadership in the community of Christ and sort of ask about that as were discussing the name of our thumbnail, and this person said, yes, we do not consider ourselves Mormons. We do consider ourselves part of the restoration, of course. And in my mind, our thumbnail sort of was meant to represent this umbrella of the restoration in our use of the word Mormon, as we discussed the two branches and the very different paths that Bill outlined in his video presentation. And this person actually said the word Mormon to us is looking backwards and we're looking forwards. So that might be a way to kind of explain their thought on it.

Bill Reel [00:15:06] I do think it's difficult to reach a general audience and try to explain to them what the group of people or ideology that we're trying to cover without acknowledging that, like, restoration doesn't quite capture it. Latter Day may not even capture it, but that Joseph Smith founded a church in 1830 and every section that's came forth from that movement is the Mormon might be the best word to capture that group to the general public.

RFM [00:15:35] It's like Mormon has become the new F word. Nobody's supposed to say it. Pretty soon we'll have to say it's the M word.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:15:42] Well, it is a victory for Satan, so we need to back off a little bit. So, all right, have we covered this story? I think there was a lot to cover and I think we did it pretty well. So. All right, I believe I have the next segment. If the order is correct. This story actually has a tie in to a story that we covered last week on the Mormon newscast where we talked about a new church spokesman being called who it was revealed has is an ally, has LGBTQ ties. There were pictures of him appearing in a Pride parade as a supporter. And of course, we discussed the difference, the different reaction that perhaps more progressive Mormons had. They were very excited. More conservative Mormons perhaps were a little confused, given that there are other messages that the LDS Church puts out that might not be so inclusive like this. This new spokesman appears to be. So this story today also is sort of a story like that where it seems to be a little bit of a different message that the LDS Church is putting out. So I'll take you back a little bit with that slide. It all started. I sound like I'm telling a story when we found out the Manhattan New York temple is going to close for renovations. It says renovations to Manhattan New York Temple are expected to begin in 2024 and be completed in approximately three years. The meeting house, and that's the key here on the third floor of the temple will also be upgraded. Local congregations will be relocated to other meeting house spaces in the area during the renovation period. So what you may not realize that is that in this temple there actually is a meeting house. There's a basketball court, there is a kitchen, There are chapels. The Saints worship each week on Sunday in there, in the Meeting house and then are able to attend the temple. So you can see there a picture of the renovation. So if we go to our next slide, because of the renovation, the Saints, there are several wards there don't have a place to meet for the next three or four years as this renovation takes place. So enter this amazing church that the the Mormon congregation. It says we saw headlines as articles came out. Signs lease at 132-year-old church. So that was unusual on its own. We thought, well that's different. I don't think I've ever really heard of that. If your building's being renovated, you go to another lds. Here we're getting the word that they've actually signed a lease with another building. Here's another headline. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints signs 40,000 square foot lease. So a lot of people reported on this and just thought that was interesting. But nobody really looked further to see what kind of a congregation they would be joining. Now my good friend Steve Pynekker, again from Mormon book reviews, he did dig a little deeper into the congregation that our Latter Day Saint wards are going to be joining in New York. So let's go to the next slide. So he was able to find out. Let's read this little clip here. New York, New York Stake President Colin Cropper confirmed the Manhattan first and Riverside park wards will move to the beautiful West End Collegiate Church building. That's a picture right there. It's absolutely gorgeous. Which is the home of one of the four congregations of the Collegiate Church of the City of New York. The Church of Jesus Christ signed a three year lease for 40,000 square feet of the shared and dedicated space at the West End Collegiate Church facility in Manhattan's Upper west side. So the LDS congregations are not going to other LDS meeting houses. They're going to be meeting in this beautiful West End church. So why is that unusual? Let's go to the next slide. This is from another article. This is all in the news about this real estate space. A spokesman said that the LDS Church will hold services in the West End space in the afternoon and the two congregations will share about 10,000 square feet of communal space. And that's important. They're going to be meeting together in a communal space including the church sanctuary, the gym, the multipurpose room, the kitchen and the chapel. Once I learned that this building had a gym, I think I know why it was so attractive to the LDS wards that need to relocate. So let's go to the next slide. So the West End Church is a very important church and a very important congregation. So we'll find out a little bit about them and then I will explain explain the importance of this. The West End Church is the oldest Protestant church in America. It was founded by the Dutch settlers of New Amsterdam. Historically, it has been affiliated with the Reformed Church in America, but recently they have also joined up with the United Church of Christ. And the United Church of Christ is also a very important church because it has both Pilgrim and Puritan roots. You could say that this is where the Restoration and the Reformation now share a common sacred space. And that was written up by our friend Steve Pinecker. So if you go to the next slide. As we dug in to this congregation, we learned that it is run by an amazing person, Reverend William Christman. And he right here you see a picture of him, he's talking to his congregation. And I've also included a picture of when he and his husband were married. There was a big write up in the New York Times. So he is just a lovely individual that I have the chance to interview with Steven Pinecre and find out more about this partnership between LDS wards that are going to be part of his space and interacting with his congregation for three, if not more years. So let's go to the next slide. So their side of the story is that their church building is sort of a campus. It has a lot of different buildings. And they had had a collegiate boys school, a very old and prestigious one that used space there. That Collegiate school moved to a bigger accommodations and so they have space a roommate wanted. So they put the space on the market and they found a real estate broker and they spent a really long time vetting different churches, different schools. Who do they want to share space with? Because they're going to be intimately connected as they have shared spaces and they're both using, you know, the different accommodations. So they took a long time as they vetted these organizations that could come in. So I think our next slide is actually a clip. You might want to turn your volume up for some reason. This is a clip from Steve Pinecrest show and my interview with Reverend Chrisman as he describes the criteria that his search and screen committee basically went through to choose who would partner with their congregation and be with them for three, maybe even more years. So this is the wonderful Reverend Kriseman telling us how they decided to partner with the LDS Church.

Speaker F [00:22:39] We saw in an example that women weren't invited into the top levels of leadership in a way that made sense to us or if they were explicitly excluded. We thought twice about that. If LGBTQ folk were not acknowledged, if LGBTQ marriage was not acknowledged, if an immediate hard no. When the LDS folks came to us, we were like, what is going on? I think we were probably as confused as you two were when you read the article last week, but probably more so because we haven't historically been scholars or certainly experiential learners of the LDS movement. What we came to learn, and I will tell you together, we kicked tires, we sniffed. We were like, let's just see what happens. And our friends who came on the local level, and it's been an interesting process because we've certainly gotten to know and befriend the local leaders of the congregations here in New York. We've also gotten to know and kind of befriend and negotiate with some of the leaders in Salt Lake City. So negotiating with the lawyers and bankers and executives in Salt Lake who are flying in to meet us and all these things, and then negotiating like, who's paying the cable bill and how's the electricity going to get turned on and what's the alarm code with the local congregations has been an interesting lesson for me in terms of how church structure works. And I think there's a lot that is really beautiful and empowering about how LDS does church that I'm really excited to learn about.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:24:13] Yeah. So rfm, why are you laughing?

Speaker F [00:24:16] It's history.

RFM [00:24:17] That time. I meant to be muted.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:24:19] No. And I don't think we started the clip quite. I think we had looked at a little bit before, but prior to that, he talks about how his congregation is absolutely determined to protect the vulnerable. And that would be people of ethnicity and LGBTQ and women. They're determined because they just. They have this beautiful, rich, inclusive congregation, as you can tell from just hearing him speak. And also, you know, they wanted to make sure women would be in leadership, people of different ethnicities would be in leadership. They were looking for a partner who was very pro lgbtq. And in working with the members of Mormons.

RFM [00:24:59] To me, Rebecca.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:25:00] Well, I didn't want to come out and say that, but it is very interesting. But to me, again, this is how this ties into the story from last week. He said he negotiated with top church leaders and local wards. So what a progressive step. What a progressive step that these congregations are going to spend years interacting with this group. Let's go to the next slide.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] I can't help but ask what happened to his standards? It sounds like they set some initial standards and then totally threw them out the window.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:25:28] They did not. They believe the LDS congregations adhere to those standards completely.

RFM [00:25:33] I think what happened is we're going to have to wait to see how long before they figure out that they got shown the showroom car and then when they bought it, they swapped it out with the jalopy in back.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] Now I'm understanding more about why this story is interesting. So you think, Rebecca, that they. That the Mormon church bamboozled this pastor? I. I deceived him. Okay.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:25:55] I don't think that. Because I feel that the wards there probably are extremely progressive. In Manhattan, I feel like they are

John Dehlin [00:26:02] not letting women lead. Right.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:26:05] That may not be so obvious. Maybe in Manhattan, women are also sitting on the stand. I don't know. But. And I do feel. And we'll show a couple more clips to me, I think, could it be another progressive step? We have a church spokesman who's an ally. We have the church completely on board with sending hundreds of people to meet with this congregation and see how they operate. It's a very interesting scenario. Let's go to the next slide. Or. I can't remember if it's a video or a slide.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] The one thing I'll just say really quickly is that it is well known that the Berkeley ward, the Brooklyn wards, Manhattan wards, Boston, Cambridge wards are almost different churches, you know, so. So that. That fits with my understanding.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:26:52] Yep. No, and that's actually what I think the scenario is, honestly. But he did discuss that. He talked with lawyers and bankers and brokers, you know, and so I'm assuming some. I know the top leadership must understand what this partnership is, so perhaps could be seen as progressive steps. So let's talk a little bit about their congregation there. I was absolutely thrilled to just understand what this was all about and to think of our. Our wards. They're interacting. They have a bless the pet pets Sunday where you can bring your pets and get a blessing. They even bless spiders. He said any kind of pet that you would have, they have. Every Tuesday, they open their doors to those shared spaces and they have a soup kitchen where everybody can participate in providing food where it's needed. Every first Sunday, they have a communion feast, a huge dinner that fills the great hall that the wards will walk through to get to their meetings. Now, first Sunday and food. That sounds familiar. Oh, that's right. The Mormons will be doing something. Something different on that first Sunday. So that'll be an interesting dynamic. I think that is the fast Sunday for Mormons where they do not eat. So that'll be an interesting dynamic. They have a wonderful choir. They have women in leadership. And they are extremely inclusive on all levels and absolutely known for that. So let's go to the next.

LDS Church Leases Space in New York Tabernacle

John Dehlin [00:28:12] I'm just wondering what that's going to be like for the members to see that every, you know, and maybe they're schedules. Will their schedules overlap and will members even get to see what they do in their church or will it just be show up when no one else is around kind of thing?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:28:28] You know, I'm not sure because it sounds like they utilize the building, Rev. Chrisman's group all the time. And that's why it was important for me to show the slide about the shared space. It's not just going to be them on one side and someone else on the other. I believe that they will mingle. I believe that they will be together. The other thing I should mention, I don't have a picture, but there are pride flags throughout, almost in every window, everywhere. There are things showing allyship and inclusion throughout the entire space.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] Yeah, that wouldn't, that wouldn't fly in Utah County, I can tell you that.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:29:00] No, it would not. So this next clip is again Reverend Krisman just talking about how he thinks interaction will probably go, especially with the children. He's really looking forward to interacting with the young people and the children.

Speaker F [00:29:17] So when these kids who have been raised in the tabernacle, who are New York City kids, who go to public schools, who participate in scout troops, who understand the secular sacred divide, who toy with the fact of like how do I deal with LGBT infusion at my public school, but that it's not represented in my faith based community simply by dint of being in our building, we're going to connect some dots. And every time some kid fist bumps me with my manicure or walks through our stories, our sanctuary doors with those pride flags, they're getting a vision for a world that doesn't have such a sacred and secular divide, they're getting a division, a vision for how you can be both a faith based person and true to who God created you to be. And somewhere down the line, somewhere down the line, as the young queer kid inside of me still knows, somewhere down the line, we're going to save a life. There's a life here that is worth saving. And if it's only one, and even if we never know it, and if it's 20 years down the line, that will make this entire partnership worth it to me, that one life that Jesus so loves, that is going to see a different way of being not valuative, not better, not worse, just different and they're going to say, oh, I have room at the table. This is why we believe women in leadership are so important, so that young girls have a vision. This is why we believe queer people have a voice at the table, so that young kids can see them. This is why people of color need to be in leadership, because we need to be modeling visibility. And that's what we're doing at West End Church. And it's what we've always done, and we've always done it quietly.

Audience Comments and LGBT Inclusivity Discussion

John Dehlin [00:30:58] Hey, Rebecca, if it's okay, let me share a couple comments that are coming in.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:31:01] Yeah, please do.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] No. Molly Shear writes, I love how genuine this guy is.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:31:05] He's wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] AKA the cat lady says, love his nail polish. And then new Richard Jones says, he seems pretty real. I just wanted to share this.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:31:15] No, he's incredible. I, I probably can't even express that enough. I, I had a chance to talk to him before our actual podcast with Steve Pinegar spent about an hour talking and then on the podcast and he just has this vision, as you saw, that simply by existing, simply by having people see his congregation, it's going to make a difference. And that's why I think this story is so interesting to me. I think I have one more clip. I think it's me showing me. But these were just my thoughts on the interview and I thought that's kind of encapsulated what I wanted to say at the end. So I think we have one final. Yeah, here we go. Incredible. And I am thrilled for the learning opportunity I believe that the LDS congregations will have because the values that you espouse, I think these are going to be incredible for the LDS Church to, to see the idea of opening your doors to people to serve food. You know, here in Utah, a lot of other denominations do open their doors as warming centers. The LDS Church has opted out of that. They do not do that. They do donate supplies to the other churches, but as far as actually opening their doors, they have not arrived that yet. So a learning opportunity there, the idea of showing the LDS congregation women in leadership. LDS people do have women that do serve in some leadership, but there's nowhere in the LDS church that a woman could make a decision that would not have to be checked by a man. So for them to be able to see this in your congregation is going to be incredible. Learning opportunity and just the diversity and the inclusion that you're going to be able to show in LDS congregations and in the faith. A same sex ex marriage would be grounds for excommunication even just a few years ago, I know they're moving away from that. So to be able to see your beautiful congregation and your wonderful people is going to be an incredible opportunity just to experience something different for them. So I'm really excited. I'm especially excited for children and young people to see this example. In our LDS faith, we have a document called the Proclamation of the Family. You know, that that definitely holds a certain point of view of one man, one woman, very rigid gender roles for these congregations to be able to see something different and something with such love in it. I am, as I said, thrilled for them to be exposed to this and I think it bodes very well for the future. So I'm excited.

Speaker F [00:33:51] I hope everybody's as thrilled as you are. Rebecca.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:33:55] Oh, I'm thrilled. I think that's the takeaway. Oh, I'm thrilled. So I don't know. Yeah, I'll just say my final thoughts. I tend to try not to be cynical and think, do you know what, the LDS Church knows where they're sending these congregations and that's a progressive step to me. I mean, these people are going to be hand in glove, these two congregations. And I even made the joke on the podcast, I would not want to be the primary teacher or even the young women, young men teacher in those wards because they're going to be looking across the aisle and going, what is happening over there? It's going to be really interesting. Rfm, what are your thoughts? Thoughts?

RFM [00:34:31] Three thoughts. First off, the exterior is beautiful of that building. I thought for a second the west side church was Dr. Strange's sanctum sanctorum, but apparently that's not the case. Second thing is that I think that the Reverend Christensen.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:34:49] Yeah, Chrisman.

RFM [00:34:50] The Reverend Chrisman. His enthusiasm and optimism about changing the minds of the Latter Day Saints to conform with his religious beliefs is probably at least matched by the, the optimism of the Mormons of converting members of his congregation to the one true church. And finally, I think it's only a matter of time and probably a very short time before a clip from this show or the original show where that aired shows up on Greg Matson show because I think he's going to have a thing or two to say about the church doing this.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:35:21] Yeah, you may, you may not be wrong. And it's funny because I know that Ward radio did, did do a little 18 minute episode simply on the fact that the LDS congregations were leasing space. They did not look further into exactly where they were going. They made some statement like going to go and preach the gospel to those evangelicals or something. Anyway, exactly what you said. Rfm, the idea that the Mormons would be coming into their new space and, you know, letting them know what's what. But in this case, you're right. There's definitely going to be some give and take. What do you think, Bill?

Bill Reel [00:35:53] So when RFM made the joke about the showroom car, it's actually where I wanted to go. So the church, in its language, outwardly, to the general public, I think sometimes it does word things that it appears to be sort of LGBT friendly. We already know it's joined up with the naacp and it's told. It's told. It's convinced them that racism is behind us in Mormonism. If you look at Bill, did you.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Sorry, no, we hear Bill.

Bill Reel [00:36:23] Okay. If you.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:36:25] You're here.

Bill Reel [00:36:25] If you look at a leadership structure of the church, you see women on the picture. So on some level, you're like, well, there's not as many of them, but women seem to be leading. And on some level, the church articulates things in a way that an outsider would go, no, no, I'm allowed to be a truth seeker. I'm allowed to ask questions. You know, I think the church does a really good job of outsider, insider language differences. And I think they've convinced the general public that they have. That they're not racist, that they've gotten past their racist heritage, that they've convinced folks that women lead in this church, They've convinced folks that they're LGBT friendly. But all of us on the inside sense, like, oh, yeah, but there's limitations to that. Like, women can't lead at the top.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] Stop.

Bill Reel [00:37:11] We've said really racist things that we've never really acknowledged. And Elder Oak still says the ban came from God. And so you see this pastor sort of get the wool pulled over his eyes, and I sort of feel sorry because he's an innocent bystander. It's this church that intentionally puts on a mask and pretends to the public, and then it's something entirely different on the inside. And then I just. I want to at least note. He first said that he was going to exclude any group that was a hard line against any of these things. But by the end, it almost sounded like he knew they weren't exactly on board on these things, and he had hoped that their congregation could be an example to a much more orthodox, rigid, conservative congregation.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] And.

Bill Reel [00:38:03] And I do think that if you don't fit in the box and you're seeing those two congregations Side by side every Sunday, you're going to realize very quickly which one truly lives the gospel and which one has a lot of rigidity and rottenness to performing it now.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:38:21] No, I think you hit it right on. And I know they also talked about looking at written statements from the church, looking at their political records. So I thought, what was that bill of couple years ago? The defense of or marriage equity. And, you know, they, they backed it, but only so that they could have the clause in it that said we can discriminate as a religion and we can deny this and this and this. So on the surface, there are many things that you would think exactly what you said, Bill. Very inclusive. But those of us who dig down, we know what it's about, so. So we'll see. John, what are your thoughts?

John Dehlin [00:38:54] Yeah, so I think many of us just want to see the church. We're so desperate to see the Mormon Church make positive steps in inclusivity. Maybe we want to think that this is the church being progressive, the church trying to change its image and embrace the LGBTQ community. That's possible. It's also possible that, like, real estate's really hard to find in New York and this was like the only building that was available, that was affordable, that was in the right location. And it could have been just very much a tactical decision. And without having insiders to tell us which we. We kind of are left to guess. I think every time that I try and hope that the church is really changing, sometimes they, they tend to dash my. Dash my hopes a little bit. I'm going to just turn the rest of my time over to our viewers and listeners. There's some really great comments coming in. Anthony Campbell writes, I hope Dallin H. Oaks doesn't try shock therapy on him. In other words, referring to Dallin H. Oaks as president of BYU when he approved electroshock therapy for gay people. That's a.

RFM [00:40:03] He denied that, John.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] I know he denied that, damn it. But that's kind of a dark. It's dark humor because it's. It's tragic. And now JC writes, I bet that he has not read the proclamation to the family. I hope he looks it up. Jamie writes, is this the church's way of saying they support LGBT without including them in our wards? Makes me mad. He seems like a great guy. Facebook user writes, there's no way they can rub shoulders like this for three years without some spillover of greater tolerance and open mindedness. Let's hope that that's true. Guy McDude writes, How many Mormons will convert to this dude's congregation. I would say few, but maybe one or two. I can't imagine little girls seeing female pastors and saying, hey, Mommy, why can't I be a pastor or a bishop someday? Yeah. D Luly writes, this is testing the waters of tokenism. They're hedging bets and can avoid talking about women. It's balancing propaganda. And then on the positive note, P. Rose says, he just made me cry. We can only hope. And then finally JC Writes, I'm just feeling cynical about this. Yes, Manhattan congregations are not Utah County. Not what he seems to think. Anyway, thanks viewers and listeners for those great comments they add to the show. So thank you.

Bill Reel [00:41:23] Can I just say, too, our, our ward building was renovated for a year or two and our bishop had to go do the similar thing, go find a place to put us for a couple of years while our, our ward was remodeled. And we were the only ward in 11 cities, three counties. So there wasn't. We'd have to travel an hour to go somewhere else. So these guys get a really nice building and what we got was a middle school cafeteria. So I just, just Kudos. Kudos to getting a better locale in this situation.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:41:52] Oh, I think that's true. And, and he did mention there is going to be another congregation coming in. They're still leasing out space, so it's going to get even more crowded. That'll be interesting. And he also talked about how he already was familiar with the LDS congregation through Scouting. I guess their church, the Western Church, has Scouting for boys and girls, and it sounded like a lot of the LDS kids were participating in that. So I think it is more of a progressive group. And he talked about doing some joint, you know, charity humanitarian work. So what I know is that I would like to check back in with him and they're going to start this experiment in March. And so I'd like to check back in maybe in a couple months after that and see how it's going. I think it'll be interesting. All right, let's move on to John's story. What do you have for us?

John Dehlin [00:42:38] Thanks, Rebecca. Really quickly, I want to thank those who are sending in super, super chats. Maggie May sent a super chat. Theodus Whoopi wrote four Very thoughtful and Intelligent Human Beings. I love this newscast. Thank you so much. Theodus Whoopi. Kara Skinner writes, I appreciate the work you do. Keep it up. And Brett Norquist writes, what an interesting social experiment. I hope it benefits both groups. Great discussion. We appreciate donations of all types. We're all trying to make a living off of our work here. So thanks for the super chats. Please keep them coming. Also, please do hit the like and subscribe button on whatever channel you view and on all the other channels that are here. The more that our channels are subscribed to, the more the YouTube algorithm shares the content. So please subscribe to Mormonism Live and, and Mormon discussions and Mormonish and Mormon stories. Thanks so much to everyone for that. Okay, so really, my, my video clip is very short. Today I was on Instagram and Jeffrey. I follow Jeffrey R. Holland's Instagram and he released a video recently. He's visiting some sort of stake and he was sitting at a table with a woman and the woman at the table asked him a question. She asked Jeffrey R. Holland, what is your message for anyone who goes through hard times and is discouraged? I should add that, that we know that Jeffrey R. Holland was, was ill last year, that there are many reports that he almost died. So I think he's, he's communicated that he feels like it's a miracle that he's still alive. He now is the acting president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles now that M. Russell Ballard has passed away. And you know, so this is sort of, I think it's a video that might be trying to show his vitality that he's up, he's about, and he's doing the work of the Quorum. But this video, it's short. It kind of bothered me a little bit and so I wanted to share it. And then I'm going to share a bunch of comments from people to see if others were bothered like I was. And then I want to hear if the panel's bothered at all. So let's go ahead and play the clip.

Elder Holland on Perseverance and Retirement

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:44:52] Message for anyone who goes through our times is discouraged and then just gets up and moves on and presses forward

Speaker E [00:44:59] and does their job well. That's life. That's the Savior's life. It's the prophets lives. We've all had challenges and faced difficulties and you have to remember that we win. This is a victory country already registered. This is, this is the only ball game I know of where the, the score is already on the board, but we're still trying to decide which jersey we wear. You know, it doesn't make sense to me. Everybody oughta, everybody ought to understand that. But that's why we, that's why we get up and go forward is because we know the end. We know the, you know, the final result. Result.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] And so that's, that's the clip. He basically refers to membership in the church as winning and losing as, as a ball game. We should all know what the right jersey is to wear. Everybody should understand it and that we, that we all, that we all know the end. So, yeah, that kind of bothered me. I'll just show the clip. You know, this is the only ball game I know of where the score is already on the board, but we're still trying to decide which jersey we wear. I'm going to go ahead and just share several comments just to kind of show a sampling of how people reacted to this. Eric Mustos, who, who's been a supporter of, of Tim Ballard in the past, he's still a Christian, still a member of the church. He writes, yes, he is saying that Christ has already won the spiritual war. He rose from the grave. He conquered death, death. Now we get to choose whose side we're on. So Eric is taking this in a very sort of macro Christian view that Jesus overcame sin and death and we just need to join the team. Others felt differently. Neither secretary writes, I think he's referring to the idea that because Jesus saved us, we will all get to live in an eternal paradise after we die. I think that's the victory he's talking about. I think he believes that this message is supposed to give us comfort and hope. However, neither secretary from Reddit writes, it's never resonated with me as a true believer struggling with loneliness. It felt dismissive. Believing that things would get better after I died never gave me any hope or made me feel better. I don't know anyone who felt encouraged by that message, and I wonder why they kept repeating it. As an atheist, I understand that it's because that's all they have to offer. And I'm so glad I don't have to try to cling to unhelpful messages like that anymore. Melanie writes, he's been saying this for years. I had it written on my mirror as a teenager. He's so convinced he's playing basketball, but there's not even a game happening right now. It's a delusion. Brian Juan Solo writes, I would offer him to present this argument to anyone who is even the tiniest bit critical of Mormonism. It's easy to sound obvious when you are surrounded by the already converted. I thought, that's true. It's that insider, outsider speak. These guys can get away with almost anything when they're talking to insiders. Dream Helix wrote, I think it's a silly question to begin with what do you say to the people who have it rough but slog on and do the needful? Where's the actual question in that? Then he somehow flips the answer to not congratulate people for making it through hard times, but instead call anyone who doesn't do it his exact same way blind. She doesn't feel like that's very kind. Ad Cordell writes, what a privilege it is to have lived that long and to still be that naive. So they're calling him naive. Bill, you're laughing. You like that? RFM2 that was good. Mike Llk writes, nothing says profit like vague platitudes. You're going to win so much you're going to get tired of winning. I really like that quote, Sir Mommy Cowbell writes, sounds like a dismissive non answer you'd get from a seasoned politician. Blather on about nothing nonsense until they forget what the question they asked even was. Carly Oneida writes, it's any wonder with rhetoric like this that coexisting, thriving, or even just surviving in a mixed faith marriage when a spouse leaves the church is so effing difficult difficult. See also family relationships. And Rachel adds, the us versus them mentality needs to go. Shelby writes, are you freaking kidding me? Tone deaf and arrogant and ignorant. I'd love someone to show him the numbers of members dropping and a list of names of all the people in the LGBTQ community who have lost their lives to suicide because of the Mormon Church, for example. And the church has never apologized. And it goes on and on. Several people mentioned the second anointing. I'll just give one example. Catherine N. Class writes, Holland is talking while thinking celestial, not thinking day to day. In that scenario, Holland's victory is already registered, but he seems to have forgotten that most people haven't had their second anointing, so their victory has not yet been set in stone the way his has. Therefore his advice and encouragement is pretty meaningless to the general population of members. And I'll just say I'll just skip to the end. There are other comments about it. The last person I'll write says my thoughts Hodland looks and I redacted the the word because it was pretty mean and shouldn't be forced to return to work after dialysis and the death of his wife. And then Lad Rack one wrote let them retire. So those are some of the reactions. I was wondering whether I was being petty. Rebecca, what do you think? Was I being petty? Is this a story? Is this just nitpicking and you're Muted Rebecca

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:50:58] I have dogs here. I try to mute. I don't think it's nitpicky at all. And again I say, look at the community of Christ. They do let people retire. I had not seen a video of Holland recently and that, I have to say that made me a little bit sad. No, I've heard, heard so many statements like this being the church for over five decades that I just tune them out because it is, it is a lot of platitudes, but it's that very dangerous idea of putting all your eggs in the next life basket. Right? Everything's going to be okay later. You are ridiculous for worrying about something now. What's wrong with you? You know, that you're feeling bad or sad or lonely or depressed and it's just, it's not being present at all in the moment and simply living for the next life. And I know so many people and that also means that you sacrifice relationships in the present for the next life. I have no problem shunning my child who's not living as I would like them to live because of the next life that may bring them back. So it's the most dangerous way of thinking of all, I believe. And it's also very tone deaf. It just reminds me of, oh, the woman at conference who wrote, who wrote the letter to President Oaks asking about something that was really disturbing her day to day about the next life. She had married someone who was sealed to someone else and what would happen to her. And again, dismissive. Oh, don't worry, you know, you're in the basketball game and you've already won. It's going to be fine. Well, for those of us on the ground who live in the real life, it isn't going to be fine like that. We do need encouragement and we can't just live thinking about the next life. So yes, I'm glad that you shared that because I think it's part of a bigger picture and a bigger tone that we get from the top. What do you think?

RFM [00:52:37] RFM Well, I have three thoughts about it. First off, all those comments that you share, John, just reinforce to me how important it is to hear people with different points of view because a lot of those comments I don't think I would have come up with myself, but I was laughing at some of them because they were so well put and they're opening different avenues for me to think about things. So I want to say that, number one, number two is that, oh, I took it very much as specific to the LDS church. Come on, Guys, this isn't our first rodeo. We've been members of the church for a long time, probably over a century altogether, between the four of us. And we know perfectly well that he's talking about the LDS Church. That's the team you've got to be on. He's talking about the Helping Hands jerseys and I didn't know if he was. The third thing is I didn't know if he was talking about. I had assumed he was talking about baseball instead of basketball, but if he was talking about baseball, at least he has some basis to talk about it. Because I understand that for a couple of seasons Elder Holland did play play pro ball for the St. Louis Cardinals.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] That's a Paul Dunn reference for those of you who aren't old enough to remember. Touche, RFM no, those are great observations.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:53:51] Bill, what were your thoughts?

Bill Reel [00:53:52] Seeing that when, when you spend the first 40 years of your life with everybody thinking you're just amazing, you're just amazing, you're just incredible. And then the last 50 years of your life, it's more of the same. Plus you have have a constant paycheck that's in six figures. You, you get the greatest health care in the world. Whatever you need done. If you need a freckle removed, we'll take care of it next week. You've got your own physicians who attend to you. You get brand new cars. You get whatever you want. You've got security that protects you. Nobody gets to bother you. You get to be wherever you want to be and do whatever you want to do and live the life you want to live. These guys all come away with four, five, six homes each. I don't think you get to really speak as an authority to those whose lives are hard and who press on in the midst of great difficulty. You have lived an incredibly long life of privilege and praise. Everybody in the room stands up when you enter. You don't get to tell people who live really difficult lives as if you're the authority on what it takes to live a hard life and to give out advice or counsel. You shouldn't even ask Elder Holland the question.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:55:07] Any final thoughts? John? I'm glad that you shared that. I really am.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] Yeah, Bill, that was beautiful. Bill, a lot of people are kind of mic dropping on that aggressive presence. Nine wrote to reflect what you just said. Bill Holland and the rest don't care about anyone's struggles. Victory is indeed Holland. The man has top notch healthcare, bodyguards and luxury cars, large homes and even second and third homes. Free tuition for children at byu. Huge perks for them, including mission President calls university president appointments. They're referring to Matt Holland, Jeffrey R. Holland's son, who had no business, no business at all, being appointed as the president of Utah Valley University. That's not to say he didn't do a good job. But he wasn't even the head of his political science department at byu, let alone ever a dean, let alone ever a president of a junior college. And all of a sudden, he's appointed as a university president. Makes no sense. Anyway. A 70 call. The victory is the two. A what is that? The victory is the two. A.

RFM [00:56:15] Second anointing.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] Second anointing. Thank you, RFM. That allows this man to now live as he wants with no consequences like the rest of humanity. I just. Just I. I had lunch with Elder Holland twice. And I asked him, is it okay to be a member if you don't believe it? Literally? And he basically said. He gave me this analogy where you throw the rock in the middle of the pond. The ripples are strongest where the rock goes in the pond and they're weakest, you know, the farther you get away from the rock. And the rock, I think he meant was prophetic authority, was the word of the general authorities and the literalness of the true church. And so I think he really believes this, that you can only be happy in the Mormon Church, that you need to be obedient, that if you join it, you win. But I just think it's tone deaf and privileged and insensitive, and that's probably why I got upset about it.

RFM [00:57:06] I will say that just speaking as a general principle and not for me personally, those who have received the second anointing can recognize the abbreviations immediately. Just John.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Unlike me. Unlike me.

RFM [00:57:19] And on a more serious note, I want you to. I want to tell you something that I learned back when I was on my mission from a book, okay. About life. And I think this is the answer I would have given if I were asked that question is life is like having your. A string break and finishing on three strings. And believe it or not, I read that in the Paul H. Dunstan book.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] He would know. Wasn't he. Wasn't he a virtuoso violin player?

RFM [00:57:49] Yeah, I think he was the first violinist. Yes.

Speaker F [00:57:52] Yeah.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:57:53] There was nothing that man couldn't do. That's all.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Juilliard, I'm sure. I think he taught at Juilliard, actually.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:57:58] Yeah, he played third base at Juilliard. I read that, too.

RFM [00:58:01] Yeah. Perfect.

Ten Commandments in Schools and Utah Legal Stories

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:58:04] All right, now let's go to rfm who I believe you have three different stories and they all sort of have a legal component, which is why you're recovering up yes.

RFM [00:58:13] And I'll try and get through these as quickly as possible, but I will need some slides. First. Is Utah Lawmaker Proposes a Bill Requiring Public Schools to Display the Ten Commandments. This is from an article by Logan. Logan Stefanich, KSL Posted on January 18 so here's the individual. He's Representative Michael Peterson. He's a Republican from North Logan. And he is the individual who has introduced this bill in the legislature in Utah to require all Utah public schools to display a poster or framed copy of the Ten Commandments. Next one.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] I I just have to say North Logan is the place where I was excommunicated, so I just had to throw that in.

RFM [00:58:57] Oh, can anything good come out of North Logan?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:58:59] Were the Ten Commandments displayed in the room that you were excommunicated in?

RFM [00:59:06] So this is from the story. A Utah lawmaker is pushing a bill that would require all public schools in the Hive state to display a poster or frame copy of the Ten Commandments. And there they give its House Bill 269 title Ten Commandments in public Schools is sponsored by Representative Michael Peterson and would require a poster or framed copy of the religious text to be at least 16 inches wide and 20 inches tall and made completely of stone hewn from Mount Sinai. No, I was kidding about that last part. But 16 inches wide and 20 inches tall is part of the bill, apparently, according to the bill's language language. Additionally, the bill stipulates any public school not displaying the Ten Commandments would be required to accept and display any offer of a privately donated poster or framed copy that meets the size and display requirements. Utah is no stranger to the issue of the Ten Commandments being displayed on public property either. Now, it goes into this case here, which I actually went and read in the landmark 2009 case Pleasant Grove City. That's in Utah versus Summum. A unanimous court. Now this is the United States Supreme Court. They didn't make that clear in the article. A unanimous United States Supreme Court decision ruled a Ten Commandments monument in Pleasant Groves Pioneer park was government speech instead of private speech speech. But the decision made it so the government could selectively choose which messages are memorialized with monuments in public parks. But public parks and government speech is different than necessarily inside a public school. And it goes into the reasoning for it. I would say one of the basic arguments for not allowing well, what was it? It was this other group that was Represented by some who wanted to have their monument put in the park, too. If you got the Ten Commandments there, you got to put our monument there. And it was a religious group, and they wanted their seven aphorisms put in there. And the city said, no, we don't want to have it in there. And the Supreme Court said, logically enough, well, you can't make a. You can't force a park to accept every single monument that people want to put there. Otherwise you'll have no place to do anything. You'll just be filled up with monuments. Okay, so that was one thing. But it is different than Schools Summum, which is a small religious sect based in Salt Lake City. Yep. I just said that. Brought a lawsuit against the city of Pleasant Grove for displaying the monument and for declining a request to display a monument of summons, seven aphorisms. Okay, so here's the Supreme Court.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] Now.

RFM [01:01:38] I went and did a little bit of research here to refresh my recollection from constitutional law, which I took back in 1986. And things haven't changed. They've changed a little bit, but not that much, at least in regards to schools and the Ten Commandments. And I went and I. I got this information from an Anti Defamation league circular from 2012. The Supreme Court has extended this prohibition against Ten Commandments displays in schools in the majority of cases considering official posting of the Ten Commandments. In its landmark 1980 decision in Stone v. Graham, striking down a Kentucky law requiring that a copy of the Ten Commandments be posted in every public school classroom room, the court said this. The preeminent purpose for posting the Ten Commandments on schoolroom walls is plainly religious in nature. The Ten Commandments are undeniably a sacred text in the Jewish and Christian face, also the Muslim. And no legislative recitation of a supposed secular purpose can blind us to that fact. In other words, you're saying it's secular. Secular, secular. But yeah, it's religious. The Commandments do not confine themselves to arguably secular matters. Matters such as honoring one's parents, killing or murder, as in don't. Adultery, stealing, false witness, and covetousness. Rather, the first part of the Commandments concern the religious duties of believers worshiping the Lord God alone, avoiding idolatry, not using the Lord's name in vain, and observing the Sabbath day, which are the first four commandments. So that has been pretty much standard from at least 1980 and I think before then up till now. However, I think that what is likely is that this is being introduced. By the way, this is just introduced. It hasn't even passed the House as of yet, much less the Senate, much less been signed into law. But there may be a feeling on the part of this particular congressman that this would be a good time to try and reintroduce this idea because he may feel like the makeup of the United States Supreme Court has changed enough that they might uphold this, this, they might reverse themselves on their prior precedent. So I've got to think that's the only reason he's doing it. Your thoughts, Rebecca? Is it. Do I need glasses or did you get all fuzzy? Are you blurry?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:03:53] Did I, Am I fuzzy?

Speaker F [01:03:55] I don't know.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:03:56] It happens every night about, about 7:00'. Clock. I don't know. I hope I'm not fuzzy. I, I live in the Pleasant Grove area. I was here in 2009 and everybody was thrilled that the Ten Commandments were there in that park and also very strongly lies to protect those commandments there. Everybody was very upset about this group that was coming in and suggesting that the Ten Commandments did not belong there and that these other tenants and you know, I used to know. I wish we would have read those. Maybe not. I can't remember what they were exactly, but you know, I was sort of TBM back then, 15 years ago and I just remember thinking, why should the Ten Commandments be there and, and not somebody else's tenants of their faith be there? You know, maybe we could do something else like, I don't know, a dog walking park. Let's make better use of the space. So. But it is kind of the age old question, isn't it? And I think to put it in the school, that is a different scenario, right? That is something where the vulnerable, right, the children are going to be there every day. And so I think it definitely has the earmarks of something of a more indoctrinated nature. So I don't know. What do you think, Bill?

Bill Reel [01:05:04] I just. As a side tangent, I just think if there is a being in the sky who is directing all the affairs of mankind kind that he could do a little better job than the Ten Commandments he gave us. And, and I think you throw a poster on a wall and the kids are just going to walk by it. And the other thing you're going to have is that schools that are much more self, aware, ran by administrations that are a lot more self, aware, are going to place those posters in certain places and are going to place other posters around it to sort of combat that idea. I just think it's A bad idea to impose Christian Ten Commandments on the rest of society in a nation that has separated government and religion.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:05:49] Yeah, I agree. John, what do you think?

John Dehlin [01:05:51] I'm going to differ from you three. And I want to congratulate Representative Michael Peterson of North Logan for exercising restraint in not requesting that Captain Moroni's title of liberty or the Articles of Faith from the LDS Church be posted on every wal all. I think he showed a lot of restraint and I, I respect him for that.

Bill Reel [01:06:13] I mean the next step is a family proclamation, right?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:06:18] That's exactly right.

RFM [01:06:20] I think that they would be able to do this if they just limited it to the last six commandments. I think they would have a much better argument that these are secular in nature. In fact, the Supreme Court language that I quoted earlier would indicate that, that the problem is, is the first four commandments are really what I suspect is driving the push to get these put into schools.

John Dehlin [01:06:45] I, I, I, I'll also throw in a, a recommendation for the movie Hail Satan where it talks about the modern church of Satan, which is not a group that worships Satan. It's a movie about a group that is tired of religiosity infiltrating modern civilization, civil society. And so they'll do things like go to you know, like a state capitol where there has to be Moses and the Ten Commandments or whatever and they'll insist that like a statue of BAAL also be inserted into the state capitol so that all religions are represented. And it's a really cool movie that uses absurd approaches to try and make the point that if we all have to get our religions tenants in there, it's, it's just going to be insanity. Why can't we just agree on some be kind, love each other, you know, help the poor, alleviate suffering. Why do we have to, you know, pull text out of a specific religious text? It's just absurdity. In 2024, these guys can't even agree

Bill Reel [01:07:50] on which Ten Commandments. I mean most of Christianity still to this day disagrees about how to split the 10 commandments into the 10 10. There is debate over one of them being split into three or another one being split into three. And so they can't even settle on that.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:08:07] I agree. I think if we went with the ten Commandments of say, Winnie the Pooh, right? Like you said John, be kind, love each other. That would be perfect. I love it. The Ten Commandments of Winnie the Pooh. What else do you have for us? Our fam, We've got two more Stories to go, I think from you.

Utah County Online Marriage System

RFM [01:08:21] Let's see what this next slide is about. Marriages Online Utah County's system, a hit with Israeli couples. The option is seen as a way around strict marriage laws, but now is under government review. This is by Sydney Gonzalez of the Solely Tribune, published January 19th. Did I say. Wait a second here. That says 2021. It can't be that old. That. Is that a 4?

John Dehlin [01:08:45] It's 2021, but I don't think so.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:08:49] That was.

RFM [01:08:50] This is a new story.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:08:52] It was a new story.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] So it might be a typo.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:08:54] Yeah.

RFM [01:08:55] Okay. Anyway, this is the news. Even if it's from three years ago,

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:08:58] folks, it's not okay.

RFM [01:09:01] This is what's going on in Utah county is that they're allowing these marriages to be done online. The entire process, from applying for a license to saying I do and receiving a marriage certificate can be done online in Utah County. In fact, couples don't even need to be physically together for the ceremony as long as a Utah officiant can see and hear both of them over video. Call. The online system launched in January 2020, right before COVID to better meet residents needs. But officials never imagined such a demand from overseas. Bert Harvey Harvey, who supervises the county's Marriage and Passport Office office, said about a third of the licenses the county has processed recently are for Israeli couples. It surprised us. We're just trying to keep up and our staff is working to serve as many couples as we can, harvey said. We're glad we're able to use technology to innovate and make this easier. Now, I'm keeping this brief. They're working this Israeli angle into the story, but part of that is, is that apparently over in Israel, if you don't get married religiously, as an observant Jew in a religious ceremony, there is not an option for you to get married civilly within the state of Israel. You have to go outside of the state of Israel to get married civilly, and then you can come back into the state and the government will recognize your marriage, your civil marriage from outside of Israel. And so now these people, it's words getting out. They can stay in Israel and they can get married online in Utah. And now there's a bit of a hubbub in Israel about whether those should be observed or acknowledged, recognized by the state of Israel. Next slide, please. The Jerusalem Post first reported last week that five couples with marriage certificates from Utah are filing a petition with Israel's High Court against the Interior Ministry. Of course, the Interior Ministry being the Ones that saying, I'm not sure we're going to acknowledge these. An attorney has also filed complaints to the Hague and the U.S. state Department over Israel's refusal to recognize a U.S. legal document.

Speaker F [01:11:07] Document.

RFM [01:11:08] That's the Israel connection going on. Meanwhile, Utah County's fully automated marriage system is receiving national and international attention. Harvey said as far as he knows, Utah county is the only entity in the world with a fully automated Death Star. I'm sorry, a fully automated marriage license and certification process. Process. And that foreign countries and other states have reached out to Utah county with interest in adopting similar systems. My question was, and I'm reading this, why would that be? Hang on here a second here. Excuse me. And the answer is, of course, follow the money. The system costs $50,000 to develop and license. But Harvey said the office broke even on it last year. In 2020, the office issued 3,654 more licenses than it did the previous year. Not only has the system already paid for itself, but it's also paying for the entire department's costs of issuing licenses and staffing to service the increased demand. This is a money making bonanza. So I went online to see how much it would cost to get married online in Utah. And the answer is. Is $500. 499. But I'll round it up. It's 499. I, I long wondered, do people really not understand that people know that that's $500 minus one or do they just think it's closer to $400 when they do 499.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] Psychology. It works. RFM. It's psychology.

RFM [01:12:46] Oh, well if it's psychology, it must work. Okay, and here we go with me trying to do math. Okay, so I did this three ways with a calculator as well as longhand. And you correct me if I'm wrong. Wrong. But at $500 a pop, 3,654 more licenses is $1,827,000 that the county of Utah made just in the licenses that they did in addition to the ones they did the previous year. So I would say saying that the system that this pays for itself is an understatement statement.

John Dehlin [01:13:27] Wow, that's cool.

Bill Reel [01:13:29] Question. So the 500 cost is just the out of state folks wanting to get. Because I think in Utah it's like 50 bucks.

RFM [01:13:37] Right. And so that part I don't know. Yeah, but you would. You. You're an officiant.

Bill Reel [01:13:43] Yeah. As a wedding officiant here in southern Utah, I've been Following this news, I mean, they're. And you're right, there was a story this week about this, but. But this has been in the news kind of bouncing around for a couple of years, and I've been thinking about it a lot, because even though Mormonism controls the state to a large degree in terms of what it wants politically, the Utah is actually probably the most LGBT friendly state because two Koreans, for instance, who. Two men, Korean men who live in Korea, can get a Utah marriage license. I can marry them over Zoom. Utah doesn't give two licks. And then those two men, if they're in a place where gay marriage isn't allowed, like North Korea, I think they can get married. And no, nobody's gonna know. Like, they just got married in Utah by a Zoom meeting with Bill Real. And nobody knows the difference back in Korea. I just think. I think it is kind of a cool way that the things Utah stands for, sort of the opposite is why this process gets used.

RFM [01:14:49] Well, it has been said that you can get anything you want in this world for money. And apparently that includes a marriage license from Utah. By the way, Bill, if anybody out there wanted to be married by you, what would they do?

Bill Reel [01:15:01] Well, they would just reach out to Bill Real and give me a date. And if I've got an opening and I throw a price and the price is okay, and I'm. I really think I'm probably the cheapest guy in southern Utah. Reach out.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:15:13] You heard it here.

Bill Reel [01:15:14] I'll do a wedding.

RFM [01:15:16] Is it $499 that you charge?

Bill Reel [01:15:18] No, I charge like so. First off, in Utah, if you're a Utah resident, I think the marriage license is only 50 bucks, and I only charge between 200 to 500 bucks, depending if I have to travel. But $200, you just come to my house and I'll say the magic words and you walk away married and 200 bucks. And I think I'm the cheapest guy in town.

RFM [01:15:38] Very good. So you heard it here, folks. Should they contact you by what? Facebook messenger or what?

Bill Reel [01:15:45] They can just reach out@billreal juniormail.com okay, very good.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:15:50] There we go. You're a jack of many trades, aren't you? I thought this was really interesting. At first. I was kicking around, okay, why, why would we have this very convenient online system to marry people? And I kind of thought, okay, it started in 2020. I initially thought Covid, you know, and you've got all those BYU students, people in Utah county that have got to get married, because if they don' who knows what could happen?

RFM [01:16:14] Right.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:16:14] You've got to make it very convenient. And they can no longer go to the temple. The temples were closing down. So that was my initial theory. RFM pointed out that it began in January. Right. Is where this system was kind of set up. So that was pre Covid. So I'm not sure that that is it. But I know that there might be concern with abuse to the system by polygamous marriages. Right. Or perhaps sort of an underage kind of thing. It just seems like there's a lot of room for things to slide by where you don't have at least one person that has to reside in the county where you're getting married. So I see both sides of it. I see Bill's side where how convenient for people that don't have opportunities. But perhaps there are, you know, avenues for abuse if not regulated. So I'm not sure. What do you think, John? It's an interesting story.

John Dehlin [01:17:00] Yeah. For the sake of time, I'll just share this comment from Danny. He writes $499 just shy of 500 is just like just shy of her 14th birthday. So a fun reference to the Gospel Topics essay on polygamy.

RFM [01:17:17] Speaking of polygamy, I think that's one of the things that the story mentions is that the bill was being introduced in order to give oversight, greater oversight to how this is done. Because apparently, at least on one instance that they know of, inadvertently, the state of Utah or the county of Utah had married a person polygamously in a foreign country.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:17:37] Yeah. So we had a lot of room for things to go wrong. Possibly so. But interesting. And I think we have one more we're getting down to the end message

Utah Bill on Clergy Reporting of Abuse

RFM [01:17:47] to Utah bishops, pastors and priests. All those clergy people you can report suspected abuse even if gleaned in a confession. Utah lawmakers pushing a bill to make that clear. Two clergy this is from the Salt Lake Tribune by our good friend Peggy Fletcher stack. Posted on January 22, 2024 what this is is a bill that's being put in front of the legislature. It's really more, more for education, I think, than anything else. But if we go to this, we'll see that what it is is. By the way, I took this from the very end of the article because I thought it would be a good place to start. Part the article in the wake of an Associated Press investigation into a case of child sex abuse by a Latter Day Saint father in Arizona last year, three Utah legislators put forward bills that would in some capacity require or permit clergy to report abuse to law enforcement. All of those bills failed. So that's the end of the article. But I'm putting it as the beginning of my reporting on the article because that gives context, context to what it is we'll be talking about in this new bill, which is put forward by Representative Brian King in HB. He's a Democrat. House Bill 131 makes it clear that ecclesiastical leaders can report such cases. All it's doing is it's trying to emphasize and educate what the law in Utah actually is. Even if the information comes through a spiritual confession and even if their religion opposes revealing those clergy penitent conversations. It's true that Utah law removes clergy from the requirement to report abuse they learn about in confessions. Repeated attempts to erase that exemption have failed. But King's measure clarifies that nothing on the state's books prevents them from notifying authorities. HB131 is intended to make Latter Day Saint bishops and other clergy churchy more aware. He said that if they want to report suspected abuse, they might be in trouble with their church, but not from the law. So once again, this is sort of just trying to, I think, make a political point because frankly, LDS bishops are much more concerned with whether they get in trouble with the church than whether they get in trouble with the law. But he's trying to point out that even under the law, as it currently states, yes, they can report court confessed sex abuse to authorities. King also wants the general public to be aware of the distinctions. Clergy are not going to get into trouble for acting out of conscience, he said legally they are on safe ground. In conversations with Latter Day Saint officials, King said they wanted a provision that guaranteed the church would have have, quote, no exposure to liability if a bishop chooses to go to law enforcement, unquote, after hearing a congregant's confession, the legislator said he is considering adding that provision. The church declined to comment on King's bill. And I added that last part because I think it's important to remember that when it comes to the issue of reporting sex abuse that's going on by your members in your own church, the most important thing is making sure that the church has an exemption so they can't be held legally liable for doing the right thing.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:21:17] This reminds me of your podcast RFM that you did on the Arizona case. Yeah, if you guys haven't watched that, I know I'm talking about his podcast on another podcast, but I don't think I've ever seen you be so kind of angry and passionate about something where you brought up the point that, yeah, you can. You don't have to, but you can. So why aren't you so I would encourage anyone to find that podcast. It was extremely powerful. Any other thoughts on this Bill?

Bill Reel [01:21:47] Are you asking Bill on the bill?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:21:50] On the bill.

John Dehlin [01:21:51] On the bill.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:21:51] Bill, Bill comment.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] Any comments on the bill? Bill?

Bill Reel [01:21:56] It just strike. It strikes me, I'll say that the church wants an exclusion that says, says, look, the bishop says something to the report. It. It doesn't matter what we did as a faith for 10 years in that person's life. We want to be protected. And I think when you start to go like, they're not just talking about the moment the bishop speaks, they're wanting to be protected from everything in that victim's past that has a connection to the church. That's a. That's a big ask LDS Church, and this guy's considering it.

Speaker E [01:22:32] I'm.

Bill Reel [01:22:32] I'm actually quite in awe that, that he would even consider adding that the

RFM [01:22:37] church does seem to be very concerned about protecting itself, but not really concerned about protecting its members or the bishop.

Bill Reel [01:22:46] I mean, it's told them if he goes and talks, he gets no coverage from the legal law team at Curtin and McConkey.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:22:51] No, I don't think a lot of bishops realize that, but I think they're starting to. That they're basically hung out to dry. It's not a good position to be in. Any thoughts on that, John?

John Dehlin [01:22:59] Yeah, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna share a quote from the Holy Bible, which Mormons claim to believe. This is Jesus himself saying, who so shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and that he were drowned in the depths of the sea. That's Jesus Christ himself talking about. About anyone who harms a child. I, I will never understand why the Mormon Church doesn't act first in, in the best interest of the safety of little children, especially given how clear Jesus was on, on the priority. And the fact that the Mormon Church would continually, through the advice of Curt McConkie, go out of its way to pay for and protect pedophiles, sexual predators of children at the expense of children. You know, refusing to notify members, ward members and stake members that a pedophile is in their midst such that they open up further abuses of children out of a concern of protecting its public image and its war chest. It's unconscionable. And I unfortunately predict that all these laws are going to be defeated. There's no way the Utah State legislature nature is going to do anything to touch anything that Kurt mcconi and the church's PR team would be against. And so I'm sad to say I, I don't think that this bill will be successful or these bills. But I hope I'm wrong.

Bill Reel [01:24:42] Not when nine out of ten representatives are Mormon. Right?

John Dehlin [01:24:46] Yeah, absolutely. The Mormon Church is going to line up. Go ahead.

RFM [01:24:50] This is what happens when lawyers are put in charge of a church.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:24:55] Yes.

Speaker F [01:24:57] Yeah.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:24:58] Yeah, you're not wrong.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] What happens if a lawyer's in charge of a podcast, though?

RFM [01:25:04] Well, then it becomes just this ex exceptional kind of thing.

John Dehlin [01:25:07] It's a much shorter. It's a much shorter podcast, apparently. Like that's right, 25, 30 minutes shorter.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:25:14] No, we're not going to hit that RFM one hour. But you know, I like to let people talk and that's how it is.

RFM [01:25:19] Yeah, brevity is the soul of wit, John.

John Dehlin [01:25:22] I. I have. I'm witless, apparently.

RFM [01:25:24] It's from Hamlet. By the way, I'm doing a Shakespeare podcast. It's called Brush up your Shakespeare.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:25:29] There it is.

John Dehlin [01:25:29] By the way, Latter Day Latter Daily Digest writes no hour limit today with with lots of smiley faces. I'll also just really quickly do a shout out to our super chatters because they keep us financially alive thanks to AKA the Cat Lady. A. Taylor writes. Great show. I know you've got a media moment, so we'll get to that. Mindful Rochester writes, as a current investigator to the Mormon Church, I truly and sincerely appreciate these dialogues to deepen informed consent. Let us know, Mindful Rochester if you join the church or if you don't. Dear 9 Artemis writes Logan, Utah here. Love your channel. Ry. The guy says Paul H. Dunn invented the Ten Commandments and the light bulb. That is absolutely true. You can buy a cassette tape of that at your local Deseret book. Theodus J. Whoopee writes, Rebecca, RFM Bill and John the Fab Four. I think the Beatles might take umbrage at that claim, but we'll take it.

RFM [01:26:29] We're bigger than Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:26:32] Oh dear, that's a good John Lennon. Also, our own Landon Brophy writes, isn't this the gathering of Israel to Zion? Just as prophesied. He's writing about about the the wedding thing. Anyway, thanks to everyone who donates. Please subscribe to our channels. Please please like these channels and please donate to Mormonish podcasts. Please donate to Mormonism Live Radio Free Mormon Mormon discussions and Mormon stories, and that will keep us all afloat.

RFM [01:27:03] All right, back to you, Rebecca, especially Radio Free Mormon. By the way, the comment about the. The light bulb reminded me of a joke I thought of earlier, which. Which I'll just say okay, right now.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:27:12] Please do.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Please.

RFM [01:27:12] How many Mormons does it take to change a light bulb? The answer is a hundred. One to change it, and 99 to say that nothing changed.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:27:23] I like that. I have a joke, too. How many general authorities does it take to change a light bulb? And the answer is none, because it's all gaslight.

Speaker E [01:27:32] Oh,

John Dehlin [01:27:34] Culture hall wants to know who's Ringo? If we're the Fab Four, who's Ringo? I think that's a fair question.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:27:40] I don't know. We'll have to figure that out and put it on our names when we. When we podcast again. So. I love Cultural Hall. He's awesome. If you have not checked out his content on Tick Tock Cultural hall, he is amazing.

RFM [01:27:51] So.

Podcast Leadership and Media Moment Closing

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:27:52] All right, I have one more little tidbit that I kind of snuck in. I don't know if you guys know exactly how this podcast operates, but we take turns being in charge, which is why last week when RFM was in charge, it was the. Like this. Oh, my gosh. He was just telling us that we had to keep it to an hour. I was a little more relaxed. So that is how we kind of rotate. And you'll have to let us know if you can tell the difference between the different podcasts and who's in charge. But it is awfully fun, and I really do appreciate the opportunity to work with all of you. It's just so fun. I just love collaborating through the week. It's just RFM is Ringo.

John Dehlin [01:28:26] Of course, Theatis thinks RFM is Ringo, and Adeline says that. I'm John. I'm John. I don't know. So that would leave Paul and George. Bill, do you have.

RFM [01:28:41] John? As in John Steinbeck?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:28:44] Don't you mean Joseph Steinbeck?

John Dehlin [01:28:47] Charlie Steinbeck?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:28:50] All right, enough time. Let's get to our final, very brief segment, and then we will say goodnight. So I added a segment I'm calling Media Moment, because I came across this really interesting project. If we can go to the. I have two more slides. Here we go. Media Moment. I would like to make people aware of a documentary. It has been. I think it's almost completed. It's called A Long Way From Heaven. This is a grassroots documentary about BYU's queer underground and the events surrounding the rainbow lighting of the school's Iconic Y the crew is a team of BYU students, alumni, and allies hoping to bring to light BYU's repeated mistreatment of its queer students. It basically follows just everything that's been happening that we've all been podcasting and watching at BYU over the last couple years. And so let's just roll it really quick. It's a 45 second second trailer. And let's take a look at this documentary that's going to come out in March. So just a month and a half.

RFM [01:29:54] This has gone on too long.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [01:29:57] These kids are still facing such risk

Video Clip 1 [01:29:59] just to be out shining a light

Video Clip 1 [01:30:00] on a piece of rock.

Video Clip 1 [01:30:02] You don't understand what's happening there. If we weren't there, I don't even know what would happen to these kids. They're simply saying, please don't treat me like this anymore. That gets framed as hostile.

Video Clip 1 [01:30:15] If you love an institution, it is your responsibility to make it better. If you love your family, are you

Video Clip 1 [01:30:22] gonna stay quiet as someone endures abuse?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:30:32] Yeah, so I just thought this was a really great project. And for those of us that have been podcasting about this, to see it all kind of even just like that, in 45 seconds. I remember that, and I remember that. To see it together. And like I said, this is almost completed. They're just in post production. I've talked to these wonderful people putting. Putting it together, and it's really a worthwhile project. So look for that in March. It's going to be put into some film festivals. They do have a Kickstarter, if anybody would like to financially help them. But. But a really good project just kind of bringing it all together and showing us what has happened over the last year and a half or so at byu. And it's really important because I feel BYU is a microcosm for the church at large. So take a look at that. And you can also find them on social media. It's called A Long Way From Heaven. So. All right, I think we did it. Do we have any final thoughts, or do we need to let everybody go home?

RFM [01:31:18] I've got my thought. We're all ready to go.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:31:20] Oh, here we go.

RFM [01:31:21] RFM okay, being serious. I want everybody to know that I am in awe and remain so and have been for some time. At Rebecca Bibliotheca, it's like she never sleeps. She is investigating things. She knows what's going on. She knows what's in the news. And not only that, but she investigates it, and she gets in contact with people and she has them on her show whose name escapes me at the moment. Moment.

Speaker F [01:31:46] But.

RFM [01:31:47] But really, I mean, that pastor from New York, that's fantastic. You just have your finger on the pulse of the entire post Mormon community. And I just wanted to say that that's amazing.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:31:59] Oh, that's so nice of you. I think it's so much Nancy Drew when I was a kid, or as John and I talked about Encyclopedia Brown or the Great Brain. It's very fun to look into things. So. And right back at all of you guys. So. All right, I think we've done it. I think we will sign off for another episode of the Mormon newscast. Please comment on any of our platforms. Let us know. What did you think? What stories would you like to see us cover? What can we do differently to bring the news to you in a. In a better way that's meaningful to you? So, yeah, we love to interact and communicate with all of you. So thank you, everybody. We'll see you next week, Monday night at 6pm Mountain time. Bye, everybody.

John Dehlin [01:32:34] Thanks, Rebecca. Thanks, Maven and Julia for your help as well.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:32:37] That's right. Thank you to them, too. Good night.

John Dehlin [01:32:39] See you guys.

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