Welcome and Introduction to Mormon Stories Europe

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 609

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:00:02] Be still my soul, the Lord is on my side.

Henning Müller [00:00:10] Hello and very welcome to Mormon Stories Germany. The podcasts of Mormon Stories Germany are directed particularly at European or German listeners who self identify as Mormons, regardless of church affiliation or membership. Any participation or support of Mormon Stories Germany is aimed at building friendships and and communities of support or healing and to create places where sincere questions and honest inquiries are welcome. If you wish to support the building of communities in Central Europe or the creation of podcasts or even the website, then get in contact with me or become a subscriber@mormonstoriesgermany.org.

Henning Müller [00:00:59] Hello and welcome to another multiple edition of Mormon Stories Germany and also soon to be Mormon Stories Europe. Today I'm pleased to be able to interview Claudia Fox Reppen. In this podcast, Claudia will describe her heritage and upbringing as a LDS born Mexican Canadian in Canada and her immigration to Norway 13 years ago. Claudia is married to Osman Reppin and works as a middle school teacher for German, French, English. English I believe.

Henning Müller [00:01:27] Claudia is a blogger on Mormon topics. Her blog is called the Faithful Dissident which can be found on the Internet@thefaithfuldecident.blogspot.de and claudia is a friend of mine and even though she has grown up on the American continent, I consider her a fellow European.

Henning Müller [00:01:45] So Claudia, it's absolutely a privilege to finally get a chance to speak to you. It's fantastic. So thank you for making the time here on the 1st of January.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:01:54] Thanks Henning. I mean this is really exciting. You know, we've, we've had contact online for quite some time through Mormon Stories Germany and but to actually start talking to each other, this is exciting.

Henning Müller [00:02:10] I saw your blogs and the stuff that you wrote. Definitely saw you in the forums on Mormon Stories Germany but also on the other forums that are more US based.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:02:19] Right. I was so excited to discover Mormon Stories Germany because I had been a big fan of Mormons Mormon Stories, you know, the main Mormon stories from before. But when I discovered that there were German language podcasts I was like, wow, amazing. Because you know, I learned German at high school and have wanted to find a way to keep my German up and you know, to be able to hear Mormon stories in German was fantastic. So I really enjoyed the podcast that you produced in German and so I thought wow, this is a cool guy. I get to know him in this Mormon Stories group.

Henning Müller [00:02:59] Oh, that's so nice. No, I mean you've definitely been a support to Mormon Stories Germany and definitely the global community as well. The things that I've Seen you do and you know the strings you pull.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:03:11] Oh, that's nice. I appreciate it.

Henning Müller [00:03:12] The guy is over there in Salt Lake. That's the thing. So I guess we feel kind of remote here, don't we?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:03:19] We do.

Henning Müller [00:03:20] We're not so far in the know and not so much recognized by people. So I guess that's. So I was, I was super excited and very stoked about your idea to want to start up Mormon Stories Scandinavia and then you forwent that opportunity for when you start going to Mormon Stories Europe. Right. And we're going to talk a little bit more later about that. So tell me a little bit about yourself. So I really want to know your upbringing and how you got to be in Norway. You started up in Canada, right. So how did you end up there? And yeah, you were, you were born in the church, right? Born and raised.

Growing Up as a Child of Converts in Canada

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:03:57] That's right. Born, born in the covenant. So. But I'm the, the child of converts. So they are born in a middle sized town. But 70,000 people called Sarnia, Ontario. Interestingly enough, Sarnia just got a mention on Mormon Stories recently, which is funny because nobody ever talks about Sarnia. But in Bill Real's podcast from he mentioned that he held a fireside in Sarnia, Ontario of all places, back a couple years ago. So that was really cool to get Sarnia mentioned on Mormon Stories and now, yeah, here I am mentioning it again.

Henning Müller [00:04:43] That's interesting.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:04:44] That's really interesting.

Henning Müller [00:04:45] Yeah, but it's quite central, right. It's very close to Detroit, to Flint, Michigan, to London, Ontario and not too far away from Toronto, obviously. So it's right in the middle there. How big is the branch?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:04:57] Well, it's a ward, so I suppose probably had around 100 active members during the time I was there. On paper there were probably how many members were actually on the rolls, but a lot more than were actually active. But there were some big families moving in and out. So there were anywhere between maybe 100 to maybe 150 active members. So quite sizable. Yeah, certainly by compared to, you know, European Norwegian standards.

Henning Müller [00:05:34] No, absolutely, absolutely. A city of the size of Sarnia would probably not even pull a dozen members, you know.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:05:43] That's right.

Henning Müller [00:05:43] Probably similar to what, what's going on in Norway as well. Okay, so tell me about your parents because I thought that in your, in your biography your parents were quite interesting and have quite an interest history and I understand that you're a bit of a mix of all breeds and you're quite proud of that as well. So tell me a Little bit about how your parents converted and where that comes from.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:06:07] Yeah. So I am a mix. And just recently I found out just how much of a mix actually, because I had a DNA test done through some of our listeners might have heard of 23andMe. What you do is you order kid online and you spit in a vial and then you send it to the lab.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:06:30] It's amazing. You get information about your ancestry and also about whether you're a carrier of certain genes that could be linked to different health issues. So I've always known that. I'm half Mexican. My mother was born and raised in Mexico and my father, he was born and raised in Canada, but British background. So I knew that I had the Mexican, the Latina and the European as well.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:07:10] But interesting, through my DNA analysis also discovered that from my father's side I have a small percentage of Ashkenazi Jew. And, and this one was really surprising Scandinavian because we were not expecting that at all. And so I don't know, probably there was a Viking in the picture who came to maybe rape and pillage England. But very, very interesting. Then on my mother's side, one surprise was Yakut, which I had never even heard of.

Henning Müller [00:07:50] What was that?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:07:51] It comes from. From eastern Russia.

Henning Müller [00:07:53] Okay. Oh, Yakutsk. Okay. All right. Yeah. It's a province in eastern Russia. Yeah.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:07:59] Right. So probably came over with, you know, the ancestors of the Native Americans right over the Bering Strait. I assume so, yeah. So going back to my parents. So my dad born and raised in Canada. His mother, my. My paternal grandmother, she's still living, 90 years old and she is from London, England and grew up in Notting Hill and experienced, you know, World War II, the Blitz in London, had quite life changing experiences there and emigrated to Canada after the war and met my grandfather, who was Canadian, but he also had British background. His father had come to Canada from England as a young boy, orphaned and back Then they would send these kids from England to the farms in Canada to work.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:09:08] So he and his younger brother, that's how they ended up in Canada. So quite a tough start. But he said the family he was sent to, they treated him well and he made a good life for himself. Yeah, so my dad grew up in Sarnia.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:09:29] Once he was done college, he decided he wanted to travel for a bit. This was back in the 70s and traveled throughout the US and Europe. Even he would have passed through where I'm living now in, well, Norway, which is quite interesting back in the 70s because he took the train up to the north of Norway to Narvik.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:09:55] And so that was kind of interesting that little did he know his daughter would be living here 30 years later. So that was really interesting.

Henning Müller [00:10:07] Were you able to discuss that with your dad ever?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:10:09] Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Henning Müller [00:10:10] So he's quite excited about that. He said that you actually, actually pass through the place where you're living now. Is that something that he mentioned? Okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:10:17] There's fond memories of his train travels and especially in Norway and so.

Henning Müller [00:10:24] And he ever visited you in Norway?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:10:27] Yeah, my parents did come back in, in 2010.

Henning Müller [00:10:31] Oh, that's nice.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:10:32] That was the first time he had been back to, to Norway and to Europe since, since his trip. And that was my mom's first time here.

Family Heritage and a Grandmother's Conversion

Henning Müller [00:10:39] And so what happened to your maternal grandmother? Because that is quite an amazing story, right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:10:45] Yeah, so she's still living and she's also around 90 and really strong woman, strong willed, which I guess she had to be because, yeah, 10 kids, my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, he's dead now, but he was sort of in and out. And so my grandmother ended up raising, you know, 10 kids pretty much on her own. And in Mexico it was tough. You know, they, they experienced poverty, they experienced homelessness. And she's this tiny woman. I mean, I'm short.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:11:30] I'm like, let's see, I think about 5, 1, maybe like 155 centimeters. So I'm short and my mother's a bit shorter than me and my grandmother's even shorter than her. So she's this tiny woman, but very, very strong willed and very, very proud.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:11:50] Very Latin. Women are very vague. You know, like even at, in her 80s and 90s, she always wants to look her best in photographs. And, and so she's a very funny, funny woman. So. Yeah, so they had it tough growing up, but like my mom said, I mean, that was all that they knew and they were happy. Despite everything. They grew up Catholic, I think typical Catholics. You know, they, they didn't really go to mass all the time, but they would go on holidays and it was a part of their culture.

Henning Müller [00:12:27] And how did they meet? So your parents, because I understand that your dad, he traveled through, right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:12:34] So my dad was traveling. He would take the Greyhound bus around the US And Canada. So when he was traveling through Texas on the Greyhound bus, he sat beside my mother's sister on the bus, who I believe she was coming back from Utah after visiting friends and was on her way back to Mexico. But so anyway, they talked and she said to my dad, you know, you should come down to Mexico, meet the Family. And so on his next trip, he did just that and took the bus all the way down to Mexico City and was just really overwhelmed by their hospitality. And Mexican culture is really warm. Really, you know, they treat you like royalty. And that really blew him away because, you know, they didn't have much. They lived in a small house. I think they had two bedrooms. It's a small house. My grandmother still lives there.

Henning Müller [00:13:47] And two bedrooms with 10 people.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:13:50] Yeah. Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:13:51] 11. Including your mother, Right.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:13:53] Her father.

Henning Müller [00:13:54] Every once in while, a.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:13:55] So when. When he was visiting them, they gave him his own room. You know, he was a guest.

Henning Müller [00:14:00] Wow.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:14:01] Yeah. And they. My uncles really great about, you know, driving him around and showing him all the sights because there's just so many interesting places to see in and around Mexico City. And, of course, it was all very exotic, all very new from my father. He'd never seen anything like it.

Henning Müller [00:14:22] And they were members of the church by then. You said that they grew up Catholic but converted at some point in time.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:14:28] By then, they were members. I guess they wouldn't have been members for very long, because I think my mom was around 16. I think when they joined, they were introduced to the church through a neighbor who had helped them out with something. And the neighbor sort of said, you know, I'll help you out if you listen to these friends of mine. And it was the missionaries.

Henning Müller [00:14:51] And. Wow. He helped them out on condition of them investigating the church through missionaries.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:14:57] It was something like that. So, you know, it was interesting for them because they got to meet these, you know, these white gringos, and that was all very exciting to them and to, you know, encounter American culture and. Because they were all very curious about that. And. Yeah. So I think it first started off with my uncle, who was the oldest in the family. I think he was the one who first decided that he wanted to be baptized, and they discussed it as a family. And then I don't know whether all of them were baptized at the same time or if some of them followed soon after. But, yeah, the whole family joined, and most of them are still in the church today, actually.

Henning Müller [00:15:49] Okay. But that's how your parents got to know each other and fell in love with each other, then.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:15:54] Yes, Right. Just through my dad's travels. And so my dad made two trips down, and it was really on the second trip that he got to know my mom. And it's all a very fascinating story because mom couldn't speak any English at the time, and dad really couldn't speak any Spanish.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:16:19] He had a book and a Dictionary. And the funny part about it is dad is the most non spontaneous person you'd ever meet. You know, he's very careful, doesn't like to take risks, had never really dated or had a girlfriend. You know, he was just interested in traveling. And then, like, he meets my mom, and he just, I guess, was smitten and she was, too. And then after about nine days of somehow communicating, he proposed. And then. And then after a few days, she gave him her. Yes. And so they made plans then for her to come to Canada. And so they did, and they got married in Canada.

Henning Müller [00:17:07] All right. And, you know, move to Sarnia then.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:17:10] Right.

Henning Müller [00:17:11] So how long was that before you were born?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:17:15] So they got married in 75, and my dad joined the church in 76. I think he joined the year after they got married and they got sealed in the St. George Temple. St. George, Utah. I was born in 78, so I was born three years after they got married.

Childhood and Young Adult Life in the LDS Church

Henning Müller [00:17:35] Okay, and how was it like growing up in the church in Sarnia? Tell me a little bit about that. You mentioned that your time in primary and as a young woman in the church was already something that left some impressionable marks on you.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:17:50] Yeah, it did. Well, it was a mixed bag. I mean, church was. I guess I felt safe there. You know, we had a lot of good friends, I guess, with other families in the ward, and I grew up with their children. You know, it was sort of almost like having siblings in a way. That's why, I suppose I never felt like I wanted to marry anybody in the ward, because it was. It was sort of like, you know, being with your siblings. And I had a sense of belonging, I think, the way that most of us do in the church. But I definitely struggled with young women especially. I remember those years in the church being a struggle.

Henning Müller [00:18:48] Would you say that you would have had a testimony of the church by that time? Would that have developed? In a way, yeah,

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:18:57] I definitely would have said I had a testimony that I was absolutely a believer. I think when I think back on my childhood, early years growing up in the church, I never had any of these huge spiritual experiences that some people describe. And for me, it was more like just a long series of I have good feelings. You know, when you hear an uplifting talk at church or a sense of belonging in sacrament meeting, or hearing something that made sense to me, I think that's what my testimony was based on. It was based on that sense of belonging, that sense of security that I had from the church.

Henning Müller [00:19:51] So having a spiritual testimony of the church Would have been the feeling of things feeling right things feeling healthy things feeling in order and safe. Right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:20:01] Yeah. Because growing up in an area that was not Mormon, you know, I went to a secular school. All of my friends were non Mormon. I had maybe a couple of close friends at church, but we went to different schools. Never, never really did anything together outside of church. And so most of my friends were always non members. So I think I got along pretty well at school. I don't recall feeling that I was ever under any peer pressure, I think because I had a very strong will. As my mother always says, nobody can make you do anything you don't want to do. And when I made up my mind about something, then it was made up.

Henning Müller [00:20:55] So that sounds like your parents raised you in a quite liberal way. Is that true?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:21:00] Yeah, certainly by LDS standards, I would say that we were raised quite liberally. I mean, if you want to compare it to my non member friends and their families, I suppose we were pretty conservative. My parents were really conservative about what movies we watched or what music we listened to. And they would never force anything upon us. They never forbade us from watching or listening to anything, but they would sort of guide us. And we were sort of clear about what was acceptable and what wasn't. But by LDS standards, I think that they were quite liberal. I think maybe it has something to do with also with our personality as kids that we were never troublemakers. We never really pushed boundaries. I think they trusted us, especially with me. They gave me a lot of freedom.

Henning Müller [00:22:11] That would definitely have helped to make healthy moral judgments in your youth. Yes.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:22:16] Yeah, it never felt like any questions were off limits with mom and dad. You know, they were definitely true believers, but they were never like the strict dogmatic type. And I felt like I had a good balance of the spiritual, you know, church standards that we learned and, you know, secular schooling and knowledge and being equipped for living in the world. You know, like as an example, I remember when I was at school, and this is still a big issue today back home among some of the members is the subject of sex ed in school. I remember at the time, my mother says that, you know, a lot of the, especially the women at church, this would have been back in the probably the late 80s, early 90s.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:23:16] They were introducing the sex ed education at school and just basic information about biology and a little bit about birth control and sexually transmitted diseases. And a lot of the members were really in uproar about it and would not want their children to be a part of it and would perhaps Pull them out of. Out of sex ed at school. But my parents were different, especially my mother. She said, you know, this is information that everybody should have and there's nothing to be ashamed about. And so I never saw it as a problem of getting. Because we had absolutely the traditional upbringing in terms of, you know, church standards with the law of chastity.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:24:06] That was never a question. But I could never understand the conflict between that and getting, you know, information about how our biology works and the dangers that are out there with regards to diseases and the risks of, you know, having sex. And it just. I still don't understand it, why some members of the church think that that's such a big deal.

Henning Müller [00:24:35] Like, it's quite interesting because here in Germany you would probably never have second guessed that, right? It was. Has been in the curricula even in primary schools. Definitely in middle school, yeah. Ever since the 60s. But I can imagine, you know, depending on what you would term a sex education, contraception, I guess is something that would have been in the. In the curricula since the 60s or 70s, but the general biology of reproduction would probably have been in the curricula a lot longer than that. So that was never really an option. And I'm sure it's similar in Norway as well. And I would have guessed it's similar in Canada as well. I mean, you get that kind of.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:25:20] Canada is interesting because it's sort of a mix of American and European. I mean, Canadians in general are more liberal, especially socially liberal, than maybe a lot of Americans are. But you still get that really conservative side in Canada, at least amongst religious conservatives. And maybe because I'm still connected to or aware of what Mormons back home are saying, that maybe. I'm just thinking that it's more conservative than it actually is. But yeah, I just, I find the whole thing strange. I just never found it a problem to learn about biology at school and then come home and hear the moral side of it. You know, the school doesn't teach morals.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:26:21] And I think that's what. I think that's what parents want. You know, they don't want the school to be telling their kids what is morally acceptable or not with regards to sex. You should just be getting the information about biology and what's out there and the risks and contraception. But it's up to, you know, parents and families to decide how they want to put a spin on sex, you know, what's acceptable within their religious culture and what isn't.

Henning Müller [00:26:54] Okay, but sounds like from your upbringing that wouldn't have been a problem at all to discuss these topics at home. They were very approachable and had an open door policy on general sex education and any other topic that would build your trust in them that they would be approachable. So how did that play out then? So just guide me through your youth there.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:27:14] Well, I think having that open door policy, we're feeling like nothing was really off limits. Was definitely healthy for us. I never had the fear that my parents would have disowned me for anything. I mean, if I had gone out and partied and drank a lot and got pregnant, I know my parents would have never disowned me. So that was never something I feared.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:27:42] But I knew that my parents had given me a lot of trust. They respected my privacy, and I did not want to disappoint them. That would have been the worst, I think, is disappointing my parents. I didn't want to hurt them because my parents are good people, they love us, and the last thing I would want to do is to cause them any pain. And I knew that if I had gotten into trouble, even though they wouldn't have disowned me, it would have absolutely caused them a lot of pain.

Henning Müller [00:28:16] But that sounds normal though, right? That wouldn't yet attribute to some kind of an anxiety or depression, as you indicated. I don't know whether you feel comfortable in talking about that. Is that something that you would want to go into?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:28:28] Sure. Yes.

Henning Müller [00:28:29] Okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:28:30] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:28:30] How did those feelings develop and when did they develop?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:28:34] Yeah. So anxiety, depression are things that I've struggled with for about as long as I can remember, certainly since the time that I was. That I was in young women's probably as a young teenager. And I attribute it mostly to probably genetics and personality.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:28:58] I know that both depression and anxiety run on both sides of my family. And I think as well, having that careful personality of not wanting to take any risks. And I guess I didn't like to be outside of my comfort zone. You know, most people don't. I do remember as a teenager at school, especially high school, I found to be really, really intense.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:29:34] I got really good grades in high school. I was, you know, among the top of my class, at least in languages, and did really well in especially German and French and art. But I worked hard, and to me, anything else was not really an option. You know, I was afraid of failure. You know, I was afraid of summer school. I didn't want to have to spend my summers at school. And you know, back then, if you failed one class, then it was summer school. To make up that credit.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:30:15] So to me it was either I had to give my all or nothing. And the only option was to give it my all. So I guess I was always aware of having anxiety. Anxiety about school, anxiety about health. Because one aspect of my anxiety, which I didn't really understand until just a few years ago, that the way that I experience both anxiety but also depression is through psychosomatic symptoms. So physical symptoms. As a teenager I had a lot of headaches and aches and pains and fatigue and things that just never could be explained. I would go to the doctor and they would run some tests and everything would come out fine.

Anxiety, Identity, and Feeling Different in the Church

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:31:08] And so it was hard for me to make the connection. But I remember just feeling, especially in my later teen years, just like this tightness in my chest and my back all the time and just that anxious feeling, not even of anything in particular,

Henning Müller [00:31:30] but what was physical tension?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:31:32] Yes, physical tension, yeah, absolutely. And that just became natural to me. It's something I got used to. And so I do remember, you know, praying, getting blessings, you know, asking for help to either feel less anxious or just to feel better.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:31:59] But I always felt like any improvement that I thought I felt, it was always so short lived, you know, like maybe, maybe I'd feel calm for like a few minutes or a day or two, but then it would be the same. And so I can never really quite relate to testimonies I would hear at church about, you know, the comforter or feelings of warmth and peace, at least not in any lasting sense.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:32:29] And so that sort of. It troubled me a bit, you know, why, why didn't, why couldn't I ever just feel peace? Why didn't I feel calm? You know, why this constant tension in my body and, you know, worries and I wasn't doing anything bad. I was a good kid and I knew I was. So I couldn't really understand why I wasn't getting help from God. I suppose I just figured, you know, it's just not my gift. You know, some people feel the spirit very easily and receive the comforter and for some reason that just wasn't for me. That was difficult to reconcile.

Henning Müller [00:33:18] But you mentioned earlier, and we sort of passed through that because I first wanted to, you know, go into your upbringing and where your parents came from and so on and so forth. But I just wanted to understand is how that might potentially have vented because you also saw some issues with aversion to gender roles and Mormonism and certain things that even, that you even noticed when you grew up in young women's Already. Yes.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:33:44] Yeah, yeah. Young women's was difficult time for me. That was a time in my life when I was, you know, when I was around perhaps 12, 13 years old, I was a real tomboy. I grew up with four younger brothers. I'm the oldest, and I have four younger brothers. And so I was a tomboy. I was a bit of a girly girl. You know, I. I grew up in the 80s and 90s, and so, you know, I loved Jem and She Ra also. I would watch he man. You know, I don't know if you know any of these Gem and she Ra.

Henning Müller [00:34:32] I don't know He Man. I do know. I've got.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:34:34] You do know. Okay. Yeah. So she ra was He Man's sister. So it was like the girl's version of he Man. And so I got the best of both worlds, you know, the boys and the girls, toys. But once I hit my early teens, I was like a real tomboy. You know, I was obsessed with hockey. I had spiked hair and a mullet and. And. And yet I wore eyeliner, you know, because I was. I did want to be a little feminine. But. Okay, not too much.

Henning Müller [00:35:18] But not all the way over to the gothic. Right. I mean, you didn't go.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:22] No.

Henning Müller [00:35:23] Okay. All right. You never went goth. You never went punk either. You never colored it purple or something. Okay, all right.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:29] Well, that would have been too conservative for that.

Henning Müller [00:35:31] That would have been the thing in Germany in the 80s. Yes.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:34] Right, right. Yeah, but you did.

Henning Müller [00:35:38] But you had he man and spiked hair.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:40] Yeah, yeah, I had he man. My brother said he man dolls. I had the Shira dolls, and. Yeah, so, yeah, a little bit of everything. And you played video games. Nintendo was really big at the time, and

Henning Müller [00:35:58] did that get over well in charge, though, you know, that who you were and your identity is being a bit of feeling like a bit of a tomboy, feeling like being able to relate more to your brothers than perhaps girls and the young women's.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:36:14] I suppose up until young women's, it wasn't so much of a problem. You know, we're in primary, and I don't remember it really being an issue, but I think I was more. I started to really issue anything feminine when. When I hit the young women's age, I think when I turned 12, and I think it was because I was really aware of how in young women's, there was this intense focus on motherhood, marriage, you know, the traditional girl stuff.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:36:55] And also with Wednesday night activities, it was. I was very aware that the boys were doing all the fun things, you know, for me at the time, fun was playing basketball or floor hockey or, you know, sports was my life at that time when I was, you know, 12, 13, 14.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:37:15] And, you know, the girls, we ate cookies, you know, sewing. And I just thought that was just so unfair. And that was when I started to act out a little bit. And I remember having some conflict with my parents around that age, probably 13, 14, when I would get kind of mouthy with some of my young women's leaders.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:37:45] Now, when I look back on it, I understand it was my way of rebelling. I mean, I didn't have the language or the courage really to express myself with regards to learning about these gender roles and how that made me feel.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:38:05] And so I guess my natural reaction was just to act out, you know, to make things difficult for my young women's leaders. But there was a few incidents at church around that time in my life which sort of, I think, set the stage for. For some difficulties I would have in the church with regards to gender also. I can maybe tell.

Henning Müller [00:38:33] Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead. Sure, go into this.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:38:36] So one of the first things I remember was I must have been around 13 or 14 at the time. And one of my leaders, I think it was one of the young women's leaders or Sunday school, I can't remember. But she gave me a homework assignment. And the assignment was to read a passage in Genesis and then to report back.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:38:56] And so one day, I remember she called me at home. I think it was a Saturday, it was day before church. And she just wanted to make sure to follow up with me that I had completed the assignment, which I did. And I still remember the passage from Genesis. And so I can read it here. It's from Genesis 3:16.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:18] And the verse is, unto the woman, he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children. And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Henning Müller [00:39:35] So she only gave you that one verse?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:37] No, I think she had probably given me perhaps an entire chapter or a series of verses. But that was the one that I remember that made an impression on me. And so she asked me, you know, what I had learned from it.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:56] And I remember really resenting that passage because I understood it to mean that God had intentionally made childbirth painful on women to punish them, and that it was my destiny to be ruled over by a man. And I resented this so much. And on top of seeing how the young women were treated so differently from the young men, I guess that was Why I began to rebel to become a brat with my young women's leaders was to just.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:40:33] I didn't want to hear this stuff, or I wanted. I guess I wanted to be able to refute it or to say that, you know what, I don't agree with that, or this is terrible, but that just wasn't an option at the time. I just didn't feel like I had that option.

Henning Müller [00:40:50] And so would your women's leader have been open to your concerns?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:40:58] I don't know. I mean, I don't recall ever really trying to challenge these statements at church. I would sort of just, you know, just listen to them and get really angry inside of me. And then I think I would come home and probably vent to my parents. And my parents were always, you know, they never were the type to say, well, you have to accept this. You know, this is scripture, or this is what the prophets have taught, or this is God's word. No, they were more like, you know, take whatever works and then just forget about what doesn't.

Expectations of Marriage and Motherhood

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:41:39] But for me, I was like, no, you know, like, you know, I'm supposed to be all in this. You know, like, if. If I'm feeling bad about it, then I have to. I have to find a way to conform. Right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:41:54] And, you know, some other. There was another incident that I remember I think probably. Probably would have been around that time, maybe a year or two after, I think I was in Miami's and Young Women's at the time, and our leader giving us a lesson, one of the countless lessons about marriage and motherhood. I mean, it was like every week, right? You know, either a lot of chastity or motherhood or marriage or, you know,

Henning Müller [00:42:30] so it was not an occasional lesson. Right. I mean, they were really beating the drum here.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:42:34] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:42:34] Okay. All right.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:42:35] And I doubt much has changed, I don't know, but. But from what I hear from other women in the church, these are still big concerns with them today when their daughters are in young women. So I don't think that it's changed very much.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:42:53] So anyway, this young women's leader, she was a nice lady. I liked her as a person, sweet woman. But I remember something she said in class one day, and I was just so disgusted by it because the language that she used, and I still remember it to this day, and she said how, you know, one day when we meet the right eternal companion, it will be our greatest desire to become a tool in bearing his children.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:43:26] And I mean, I had already, even as a young girl, and still today I have like this phobia of childbirth, like childbearing and child, you know, having children. You know, both the physical aspect and also the, you know, just the emotional aspect of having children. You know, it's huge. And I think I understood that even as a young kid. I mean, I was the oldest of five kids. I understood what it's like to have kids. I was under no illusions about motherhood, you know, being easy or just a walk in the park. So I remember just being so uncomfortable by this language, I guess by the picture that I got in my head or the feelings that I had, you know, being made to feel like I was like a tool of some man.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:44:28] And you know, these ideas, they were never, they were never reinforced at home by my parents. I mean, they, they never, my parents never said, you know, you need to aspire to become a mother. You know, like, they just let us, you know, they respected whatever my pursuits were, you know, whether personal or educational.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:44:54] But at church, I felt like I had to resign myself to accepting these things as true. And so I was just really uncomfortable with that language. And I remember even at that young age saying to myself, you know, I always knew I wanted to get married.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:45:13] I didn't want to be alone. I knew I wanted a man, but I thought, you know, I'll love my husband, but I'm nobody's tool.

Henning Müller [00:45:24] Yes. And I'm sure Osmund agrees too.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:45:26] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:45:27] So I can understand how you would be in a very tough spot if you build out an identity where child rearing is not necessarily part of the way you frame your growing up and frame your adulthood. And you would have clearly have felt that from general authorities and, you know, general conference and stuff. So would that have created a major crack in your testimony already or wouldn't that have gone that far yet?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:45:50] At that point I wouldn't say so because I was still a believer, but because at that point I don't think I would have even ever considered leaving the church or even really questioning these concepts. Yes, I knew that I was struggling with them, that I was intensely uncomfortable with them, but I felt like it was the prophets and the leaders were saying, this is, this is the gospel, this is what the prophets have taught, this is what God wants, this is your role.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:46:30] And it's pretty non negotiable. Right. So I understood that in order to please God, in order to be a righteous woman, then this is the role that I had to find a way to accept. And I just know how I was going to be able to do that. And so I Think that really contributed to my anxiety and to my depression as well, because, I mean, I compare it to what I think it must be like for a lot of the LGBT members when, you know, you go through this stage of perhaps realizing that you're different, that your orientation just does not fit into this mold, and what are you going to do about it, and how are you going to make things work?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:47:28] How are you going to fit into this box that everyone needs to fit into? And for me, it was also because not only did I have a fear of, you know, becoming a mother, but I had no desire.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:47:47] And, you know, there are women in the church who cannot have children, and, you know, that's part of life, but I just felt like I was so bad for not even wanting children, that not having that desire, that's like a huge problem for a Mormon woman.

Henning Müller [00:48:12] And that part of you has never changed. Right. So you still.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:48:18] And I was open to the possibility that it could because I realized that, you know, when I first started having these feelings, I was very young. I hadn't met my husband yet. I still had lots of growing up to do, and I realized that a lot of people, you know, that desire can come later. And so I was open to that happening. And I remember when I got my patriarchal Blessing, I was 18, I believe, and being kind of troubled by that, because in my patriarchal blessing, it stated that I would become a mother in Zion and give birth to, like, spirit children of our heavenly father. And I remember being kind of troubled by that and thinking, okay, well, maybe. Maybe I'll feel differently in a few years. But it did feel kind of. It did feel scary.

Henning Müller [00:49:23] Yes. Yeah. Adding everything together puts you under a lot of pressure.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:49:27] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:49:27] To build out your own individual identity there.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:49:30] Yeah.

Meeting a Spouse and Moving to Europe

Henning Müller [00:49:31] So when do you feel comfortable talking about how you and Osmot met and how you got married? Okay, go ahead.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:49:39] So, yeah, so in. In high school, you know, growing up in Canada, I took French at school. Beginning already in elementary school, that was compulsory. But in grade 10 in high school, my high school just happened to offer German as a third language, which is quite unusual, actually. There's not many schools, I don't think, that offer German, but I had done really well in French, and I thought, why not? German could be fun.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:50:19] So started learning German, had a wonderful teacher. Teacher that really, really had an impact on my life when I think about it now, because he was the one who said to me, you know, you should really enter this contest that the province of Ontario has for German students. I was like, okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:50:41] And so we traveled to a city called Kingston, Ontario, which is just a couple hours north of Toronto. And so participated, competed against other students from all over Ontario. And there was a written and an oral exam. And so to my great astonishment, I won this contest.

Henning Müller [00:51:06] That is amazing. I mean, you haven't even grown up, you know, none of your parents ever spoke German?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:11] No, no.

Henning Müller [00:51:12] There would have been many contestants there who. Other candidates who probably would have come up from such an upbringing. Right.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:18] There is actually two categories. There was one category for those who had German background, who may have spoken. So, yeah, so I was in the category of no German background. Okay. I won the contest. And so my prize was free trip to Munich.

Henning Müller [00:51:39] Munich.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:40] Yeah, Munich. A lot of places.

Henning Müller [00:51:42] But that's like my home city.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:44] Yeah, so it's like my. It feels like a home city to me too, because it was, you know, it had such a big effect on my life and it was my first time outside of North America.

Henning Müller [00:51:57] So how long did you stay here and when was that?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:52:00] So this was back in the summer of 1997. I had just finished high school. I was 19. And the prize was round trip tickets with Lufthansa and then a two week language course at EF International Language School. And ef, they have language schools all around the world and in different languages, but this one was in Munich. And so it was really nice because there were other young people from all over the world who came to Munich to take a summer course.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:52:32] So I was really nervous because I had never been on my own anywhere, let alone Europe. And I knew a fair amount of German by then, but, you know, it was still kind of new to me, too. And so I remember, you know, a few days or weeks before going, I was really nervous. And I thought, you know, how am I going to do this?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:52:56] And I knew I couldn't turn down a free trip. And I had dreamed of going, you know, to Germany and especially a city like Munich. And. And I remember my mother saying to me, because at the time, I was in love with a boy that I'd met in high school. And my mother says I was trying to get over him. My mother said, you know, you never know, you might end up meeting your future husband. And I first just laughed at that. I thought, no, last thing I'm looking for now is a man. And that was not going to happen.

Henning Müller [00:53:34] But quite prophetic.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:53:37] Prophetic, indeed. So I think it was July 6, 1997, I set foot on European soil for the first time. And, yeah, so I met a lot of great people from around the world and was totally immersed in the German language that was really good. And ended up meeting the guy who would become my future husband.

Henning Müller [00:54:06] He was also a member of the course. Right. So it was a summer, summer course. And he would have been one of the pupils there.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:54:12] Yeah. So he's Norwegian. And he was just going to start studying at university on an exchange program to Germany. So he wanted to use the summer to improve his German skills. And see, I was the only one who had won a contest. Other people were paying for this course and it's quite expensive.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:54:39] So he just happened to be there at the same time. And I was there for two weeks. And the first week we didn't really talk. We were in the same class. But on the weekend we took a school trip to Neuschwanstein Castle just outside of Munich.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:54:59] Kind of a fairy tale place, you know, like this fairytale castle. And that was our first conversation. And we were walking up to this castle with a group of people and we just started talking. And then we talked a little bit more throughout the week and hang out with each other with some other people. And so basically we just exchanged addresses and got to know each other through writing. We became really pen pals at first and we would write to each other in German for a couple years. About two or three years. He came to visit, visit me in Canada after he was working in Germany at the time. And yeah, so we were back and forth. And in 2002 we got married in Canada and then I moved here to Norway.

Henning Müller [00:55:54] So he never considered moving to Canada and working from there at all.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:55:58] We talked about it before we got married. We actually thought at the time that we would start out in Norway and then move to Canada after a few years. But it's just worked out that the job opportunities have been better here.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:56:15] He works in a bank. He's a financial advisor. And I've been able to find work teaching now middle school, a job that I really enjoy. Teach mostly grades 8, 9, and 10. And I get to use my languages because it's not so easy living in a small area to find people who can teach French and German. And I've taught both of them as well as English. And so I really love my job and Norway. You know, it can be tough here. You know, the winters are long and cold and it's very expensive. But if you're smart with your money, you can actually save a lot of money.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:57:02] And the working life is very good here. And long vacations, right? Yeah, you have as well, in Germany, but back home, you know, two weeks.

Henning Müller [00:57:15] Yeah. Six weeks here. Six weeks here. Just the regular days of vacation. Right. And that's excluding the public holidays, obviously. So that would add another.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:57:23] So as a teacher,

Henning Müller [00:57:27] but you. So did you actually go to college then to complete a degree, to be qualified to teach, or was it just simply based on your language skill that you evidently have?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:57:38] I went to college in Canada. I went to community college and took travel and tourism. So before I got married, I had worked, like, at a travel agency, in a hotel. I didn't enjoy it very much. And once I moved to Norway, actually my first job here, living in a small town, we have 5,000 people in Mwelv and the opportunities are kind of limited. And as I was just learning the language, I got a job working as an assistant at a nursing home in a dementia ward. So working with old people who have Alzheimer's and dementia.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:58:22] So that was a completely different job for me, something I had never done. But it was a really good experience. Really helped me to learn Norwegian and to prepare me then for being able to speak the language at a level so that I could teach. So I don't have the education, the full education that a teacher has.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:58:49] Next year I'm planning to do some courses so that I can get some actual credits for my French knowledge. And so. Yeah, but it's been fine. Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:59:03] And how big is the branch there?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:59:06] Yeah, so the branch here, I started attending immediately after I moved here. And there were about. Around 20 active members.

Henning Müller [00:59:17] Okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:59:17] Give or take a few.

Henning Müller [00:59:18] And Osmund would not be a member. Right. So he never considered joining?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:59:23] No. I mean, you know, of course this was a big concern for me before we got married. My parents were always really good because, you know, my parents, of course, my dad was not a member when they got married, and to them it was not an issue whether he was a member or not. As long as he was a good man. That was what was most important for them.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:59:48] Yeah, I was really lucky. And also I had a really, really good bishop at the time as well, because I felt really conflicted, you know, like, I felt that we were getting serious and, you know, we could consider marriage. And was I really prepared to marry outside of the church?

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:00:09] And I felt like I had found a good man, that we were a good match emotionally, intellectually. I was very interested in, you know, his European background, and he just had more substance for me than the other guys that I. That I knew back home, at least, you know, from church. And I had no. I had no Mormon prospects, you know, And I had seen many of my peers at church, they would go to study at byu, get married, and most of them either stayed in the states or a few of them maybe moved back with a spouse later. But I just never felt that that was for me, I didn't want to go to byu.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:01:01] And I guess also because I always knew it was a bit different, you know, with the whole having issues with the gender roles. And although I was very believing and active, I think I felt intimidated by, you know, the real hardcore Mormonism that I suppose I knew I would find in Utah if I went looking for a husband there.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:01:31] So. But my bishop was really good because I talked to him several times. And he also was very non dogmatic when it came to marriage. He had met Osman as well and said, this is a good man. Of course there was the hope that he would join, maybe even the belief that he would, because, you know, some people would joke and say, oh, you're such a dry Mormon, because, you know, we had such a similar lifestyle and he seemed kind of Mormon, you know, in a lot of ways even he didn't even like coffee. I mean, so, you know, it seemed like we had pretty good chances of him eventually joining the church.

Henning Müller [01:02:22] But I guess that would been have. Have been the hope, right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:02:25] Yeah, he would have never had any

Henning Müller [01:02:27] of the conversations of being, as they say, unequally yoked or unequally burdened by, by one being a member and the other one being not a member of the church, perhaps. I think he is Norwegian. Lutheran, right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:02:40] That's right. See, most people, most Norwegians are technically Lutheran. Norway had a state Lutheran church up until very recently. And so most people have been been christened and confirmed in the church. But typical European, I mean, Norway is very secular. Most people, very few people go to church unless it's for a wedding or a funeral or you know, christening, something like that. And most people, you know, a lot of people, I hear Americans say, oh, well, you know, especially Scandinavia, everybody's atheist. But that's not, that's not really true. I would characterize Norwegians in particular being mostly agnostic, probably different, perhaps even. Yeah, there's a lot of people that I think still classify themselves as spiritual and maybe believing in something but not really knowing what it is. And a few people that probably also would consider themselves to be Christian, but Christian, I think, in a different sense than I was used to being Mormon.

Henning Müller [01:04:02] And that would characterize Osman as well.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:04:05] Yeah, for Osman, he was also a member of the Lutheran Church, but it wasn't really a part of their upbringing. And for him, he said he. I think he always had like a faith in God or something from a young age, learn about different religions at school and Christianity in particular. And that's still the case today. I think he's probably mostly agnostic.

Henning Müller [01:04:34] Okay. All right. But, you know, it's unthinkable what would have happened if your bishop back in Canada would not have been so supportive.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:04:41] Right, yeah, you know, I thought about that. I don't know how would if I would I have had the courage to still go forward with my decision? I'd like to think that I would have, but I may have felt more conflicted and more insecure. So. Yeah. So I'm glad.

Henning Müller [01:05:03] To the anxiety problem.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:05:06] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm really glad that he was able to see Olsen for the person that he was. And, you know, he performed the marriage ceremony for us in the local ward in the church. I consider myself very lucky because I'm sure that would not have been the experience for probably most Mormons.

Faith Transitions and Life After Mormonism

Henning Müller [01:05:28] Okay. And do you and Osman ever go into any passionate discussions or, you know, deep philosophical discussions about theologies and digging deep?

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:05:39] Not so much. Maybe a little bit. But he seems very comfortable in his, I guess, his agnostic way. I think maybe he probably doesn't think about these things as much as I do because I've been so immersed, so really obsessed with these things, especially for the past decade, that I think I'm more drawn to having conversations with other Mormons, former Mormons, because we have that same background. And Osman, you know, religion just did not have that.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:06:23] The same place in his life that it did for me. It wasn't, you know, religion was such a huge part of my life, of my upbringing, whereas for him it was just such a small aspect, I think. So I think it's hard for him to relate to that. And he seems comfortable where he is, and I don't feel the need to shake things up. But. But, you know, we're really good about.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:06:55] We do exchange thoughts and he seems interested in my thoughts, and I'm sure he's. He's been kind of shocked, but, you know, interested into see, seeing my transformation the past decade or so.

Henning Müller [01:07:11] I can't imagine how he would be quite amazed at that transformation.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:07:15] Yeah, I know. I think also about how. I think now, I think he was really brave to want to get involved with a Mormon girl who came from such a different culture, you know, religious wise. And, you know, he went to church with us in Canada and he went for a while with me here in Norway. And not until I left it did I realize just how foreign it is to, you know, to someone who was born and raised in Norway. And I give him credit for being so tolerant and open minded and. Yeah, to even want to get involved with somebody like me back then, I mean, I think that was very, very tolerant of him.

Henning Müller [01:08:06] Yeah. But I'm amazed at how you are able to take, take the former experience as a lesson learned and take the best lessons into your marriage now with Osman, who I think from what I hear you say is a pretty awesome guy.

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:08:18] So, yeah, I am so, so happy that it was him because, you know, I think especially after my whole, you know, faith crisis and transition, that is when it really became apparent just how lucky I was that I ended up with him.

Henning Müller [01:08:53] Thank you for listening. The music for this podcast episode comes from the Lower Lights. You can visit their website at thelowert. The logo has been donated by studiocase.com I'm wishing you all the very best. Until next time here at Mormon Stories Germany,

Claudia Fox Reppen [01:09:12] in every change, he faithful will remain.

Part Two Begins: Mormon Stories Germany

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 610

Henning Müller [00:00:03] Be still my soul, the Lord is on my side. Hello and very welcome to Mormon Stories Germany. The podcasts of Mormon Stories Germany are directed particularly at European or German listeners who self identify as Mormons, regardless of church affiliation or membership. Any participation or support of Mormon Stories Germany is aimed at building friendships and communities of support or healing, and to create places where sincere questions and honest inquiries are welcome. If you wish to support the building of communities in Central Europe or the creation of podcasts or even the website, then get in contact with me or become a subscriber@mormonstoriesgermany.org.

Henning Müller [00:00:59] Thank you so much for, you know, giving the listenership a run through through your vita. And now in the second part would be fantastic if we could go into what happened in your mind and what happened in your testimony. And you indicated in your biography that you sent on something that you call Pandora's box being opened. And that was sort of the catalyst in your faith journey happened by you reading rough stone rolling treatment of homosexuals, gender roles and these kinds of things. And it would be fantastic to see how you dug into that. Enter Fowler, Stage four, if you will. When was that exactly? So what, what happened?

Early Doubts and Questions About the Church

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:01:35] Yeah, this would have started, I think already by around probably 2005, 2006. I was just having questions about things. I do remember the, the question of homosexuality, of homosexuals. Feeling a bit troubled by that. You know, I did at the time have the typical Mormon view that, you know, gay marriage was just something I couldn't support.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:02:11] But I felt really conflicted by the notion that homosexuality was something that was a choice and that people could simply choose to either be straight or celibate and live a happy, healthy life. And I think it must have been around probably 2008. Somehow I came across a story of Peter and Mary Dantzic, who, I don't know, some of our listeners may remember them. They actually did an interview on Mormon Stories with John de Lind. But I remember reading about their story, it was probably in the Salt Lake Tribune Online.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:02:56] But what happened to Peter Dantzic was he was exploring the questions of homosexuality while pursuing a graduate degree in clinical social work. And he was feeling really troubled by the Church's stance on homosexuality and the treatment of homosexuals. And so he started to raise questions about it. And to make a long story short, both he and his wife ended up basically being forced to resign from the church lightly been excommunicated or disfellowshipped because of their open disagreement, I guess, or questioning of the Church's stance on homosexuality. So I remember being intrigued by his, his point of view, you know, as a, as a professional, having a lot more knowledge on the subject than I did.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:03:56] And also kind of shocked, I guess I was naive at the time, but shocked that the church would treat him the way that they did because he was expressing his concerns and raising questions about this. And from there, I think that's how I heard about the September 6th and about things like the treatment of homosexuals at BYU with like electroshock therapy and other things like, you know, blatant hardcore racism, you know, at byu. And yeah, it became like a Pandora's box because around the same time I had the opportunity to read Rough Stone Rolling.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:04:45] And so, I mean, that rocked my world totally because I learned about polygamy, polyandry. I had no idea what polyandry was before then. I had also always struggled with the priesthood ban. That was something that we had talked a little bit about in our family. You know, coming from a multi racial, multi ethnic family, I remember hearing my parents, especially my dad, express concerns and discomfort with the whole priesthood ban and some of the rhetoric surrounding black people and valiance and the pre existence and so forth.

Henning Müller [00:05:36] Yes, he would not have been familiar with that kind of a rhetoric and with that mindset of blacks being less than just purely based on their genetics or based on their upbringing. Him coming from Canada and being a convert, that would not have resonated with him at all.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:05:50] Right? Yeah. And I remember dad saying years ago that he just felt like the priesthood ban must have been, you know, the result of the racist views of the leaders at the time, which I agree with now, but at the time I felt kind of shocked, you know, like, wow, you know, does this mean that, you know, the prophets can make mistakes, especially about something as big as this.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:06:22] And so from Rough Stone Rolling and from reading, you know, about the Danzigs and September 6, it became Pandora's box. You know, I started learning about other things too. And I came across the blogger knackle, as we call it, the Mormon blogosphere.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:06:48] This was before Facebook had really taken off. So the Mormon blogging was a big thing. So I would read different blogs and some of my favorites at the time, some people out there might, might remember them. I think some of them are still writing. A Mormon Heretic was one of my favorites for especially his historical posts about the priesthood ban.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:07:16] And I also read the blogs of several gay Mormons and made some friends there. One blog called Gay LDS Actor and I remember one really funny blog at the time Time called Soy made me gay. This really creative gay Mormon who really poured out his heart on, on this blog.

Henning Müller [00:07:40] What does soy mean in that sense? Soy.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:07:43] As soy. As in. No, no soy. Like soy sauce. Yeah, because soy contains estrogen or chemicals that, that are like estrogen. So I mean, some people have this crazy idea that if you eat enough soy, then, you know, men will become female. So he just, he just chose this funny, you know, title, Soy made me gay because of the estrogen. So, yeah, as it would.

Henning Müller [00:08:16] As it would.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:08:20] And I learned, I learned a lot from these bloggers and made some really good friends. And then around, I think it was around early 2008, I decided to start my own blog. And so that's when I started blogging as the Faithful Dissident.

Henning Müller [00:08:35] Yes. But you didn't quite divulge your identity in the Internet just yet, right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:08:42] No, I remember.

Henning Müller [00:08:45] Why were you afraid of that and what did you think might happen?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:08:48] I remember when I started the Faithful Dissident, I didn't want to divulge any information that I thought would make it possible to track me down because I knew, for example, if I said I was in Norway, well, you know, how many Mormons are in Norway? And let alone if I said I was female and Canadian, then I knew that I would be discovered right away. And I had seen in the log in my blog, like IP addresses and stuff, I could see that people from inside the church had visited my blog and I had no idea who these people were or why they would want to read it.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:09:33] So I was afraid at the time of, I guess at the time, I suppose this was before I was really out to my family and I didn't know where I would end up. I had a lot of questions. I was feeling very conflicted. I was still active, I think mostly active, but I wasn't happy at church and things were sort of unraveling for me and I felt like I needed a safe space to explore these issues and to talk about it, to interact with others who were going through the same thing. And if I were suddenly tracked down and hauled into like a disciplinary court or threatened discipline, it would have disturbed that process.

Henning Müller [00:10:23] Okay, that would have been. So this time when you started with blogging and being your own blogger, that would have been in 2008?

Blogging Anonymously and Leaving the Church

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:10:31] I think it was March 2008, if I remember correctly.

Henning Müller [00:10:34] March in 2008. Alright, got it. Would you have approached your branch president yet and your stake president, or would that have come later?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:10:46] I think that came later, if I remember correctly, because I think I was pretty much. That was probably around the time when I was less active, when I just felt like it was getting to be too much. And I do remember sharing some thoughts and concerns I had with. I sent an email to a branch president and copied it, I think, to the stake president and the branch president, who's a very good guy, I really like him a lot.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:11:24] He sort of just differed to the stake president, he really didn't much have to say. But the stake president, who also is a good guy, but just. I think they were just both really ill equipped to deal with these issues. And I didn't feel like I was being heard and I felt like I was sort of. Because he pretty much told me that I had been colored by anti Mormons, you know, anti Mormon literature because of the questions I was raising and that simply talking about these issues in the way that I did, I believe, mention Mormon stories. And John Dehlin and I shared with him what are some of the issues.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:12:14] And he. I remember him writing to me and saying that, you know, people like John de Lynn, they may mean well, but, you know, there's a reason why anti Mormons are looking at these resources and that basically, you know, somebody like John Dolan is a wolf in sheep's clothing and you've obviously been affected by them and, you know, like, just have more faith, you know, go to the temple, you know, all the usual things that you're supposed to do. And he acknowledged that he struggled with some things. You know, like he said, I have gay friends and I too have struggled with the whole race question.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:13:00] But he didn't have any answers. And now that I look at it, I mean, I don't see how I could have expected anything else. And maybe I really didn't expect anything. I was just looking for. I think it was important for me to let them know why I was not attending church or why I was drifting away and because something that I was really concerned about was I didn't want the members of the branch to assume that. That it was Osman who had pulled me away from the church.

Henning Müller [00:13:34] Yes. Yeah, you were quite careful about that.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:13:38] Married a non member. That's what happens. Right.

Henning Müller [00:13:40] So it must have been wolves in sheep's clothing somewhere. Somewhere in the States, somewhere. You can put your finger on it. You know, clearly Richard Bushman would not have been a wolf in sheep's clothing. Right.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:13:52] He would have known that.

Henning Müller [00:13:54] He wouldn't have even been able to put a finger on that one.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:13:57] Yeah, yeah. So. But the whole blogging experience was a time of intense growth for me in terms. I mean, not just the whole spiritual process or the, you know, losing my testimony, but I just learned a lot of things about the world and about a side of Mormonism that I really wasn't that familiar with. Because growing up in Canada, you know, definitely we were connected to the states, especially being. I mean, Sarnia is a border town. Just, you know, there's only a river that separates Ontario and Michigan. And, you know, we're very affected by American culture and American Mormonism. But I discovered this whole other side to it through blogging and later through Facebook, because I guess I didn't really know that many American Mormons, you know, personally. And I discovered this whole other culture, especially in Utah, that I really wasn't so familiar with.

Henning Müller [00:15:13] Yes. Yeah, you wouldn't have been familiar at all with Utah culture.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:15:18] Right. Because, you know, this was the days before, you know, growing up in the church. That was before social media and before the Internet, and I really wasn't aware. And so I think one of the areas where I really learned a lot was politics. And I don't know if you have any memories from that time, Henning, but the Obama election of 2008, I sort of feel like that was like a watershed moment in Mormonism, at least political Mormonism, maybe just because it was all so new to me. But I just felt like that really brought out a lot of craziness or nastiness that.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:16:01] That kind of shocked me in terms of, you know, like, as an example, you know, as a Canadian, you know, I grew up with universal health care, Right. And social benefits and welfare system in Canada. It's much the same in Europe.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:16:21] And suddenly I was interacting with American Mormons who were all very excited about the. About the election coming up. And there was a really great blog at the time called political LDS.

Henning Müller [00:16:36] But that would have been in 2008, right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:16:38] That was 2008, yeah.

Henning Müller [00:16:40] Okay. So that would have been the McCain Palin campaign then.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:16:42] Right.

Henning Müller [00:16:43] All right, got it.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:16:45] And so, you know, suddenly I was hearing Mormons say, like, that they were against, you know, like, health care. And I'm like, this is a thing. This is a thing. Like, health care is like, you know, they would refer to it as, like, socialism, you know, Satan's plan. And I'm like, wow, like, this is really a thing that people look at health care as, like, Satan's plan to, you know, destroy the kingdom of God. I just. I was shocked.

Henning Müller [00:17:21] And those would be Latter Day Saints that would come up with these verses

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:17:27] okay, yeah, these were. These are all Mormons. And I remember, you know, I would tell them how by this time I was, I think, beginning to say that, oh, I live in Norway or I'm Canadian, and I would share how, you know, things work in our social democratic system and with health care and welfare system and so forth. So I remember people, you know, like, drawing comparisons of Canada and North Korea and just really crazy stuff. And so I learned quite a bit about socialism because socialism was like the big bad word, you know, during the. I remember with Palin and if you remember Joe the Plumber, and, you know, socialism is a bad word in Mormonism. And so I had to ask myself, you know, what is socialism and am I a socialist?

Henning Müller [00:18:34] I guess it's so alienating to us Europeans because we would not term it as socialism, but we would term it as social democracy. Right. The socialism that resonates with us would be the one that comes back from the Stalin days that you would have had in Eastern Europe, particularly Eastern Germany.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:18:50] Right. And that's the thing. I mean, some of these people were not. They really could not see any difference between, you know, yeah, like North Korean or like Soviet socialism and, you know, social democracy, like Norway. To them, it was pretty much all the same thing. And, yeah, so I learned a lot, actually, from that point of view, because I was also completely unfamiliar with, like, Ezra Taft Benson and the John Birch Society and this era of, especially with the civil rights movement and, you know, statements regarding Martin Luther King and blacks and how that, you know, was all tied into Mormonism. And so I really had a lot to learn in terms of Mormon history from that area, especially the Ezra Taf Benson era. And just now how being a European or even a Canadian Mormon could be so different from a Utah Mormon, at least politically.

Politics, Culture, and Mormonism in Europe

Henning Müller [00:20:07] Okay, do you get the sense from the church and church culture in modern days that it is broad enough and big tent enough to allow for a diversity of liberals and conservatives in that way of. Of being under the same tent? Do you see that or do you see that conservative views would strongly inhibit diversity?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:20:29] I think one of the consequences of that 2008 election was I really saw a rise in what you would call the LDS Left movement. I joined a Facebook group, Facebook group, which still exists today, called the LDS Left. And so for a while, I would probably identify as an LDS lefty because I realized, okay, I guess I am.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:21:03] Would have classified myself maybe as a socialist, but as a social democrat. And I got to know a lot of people in the LDS left group many of them Americans actually, who were able to reconcile their Mormon faith, even living in some of the most conservative areas with their leftist politics.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:21:31] So I do think that it's possible and I think honestly outside of the US at least in my experience. I don't know what your experience has been like in Germany, Henning, but in Norway I attended church, I guess for about seven, eight years. And politics was just never part of Mormonism here. I mean, not really.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:21:55] I hear, you know, stories of Mormons in the US and even now in Canada from back home of American politics being a part of the discussion like in Sunday school, and how members get really riled up over, over American political issues and.

Henning Müller [00:22:18] Which is strange, isn't it?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:22:20] It is strange because here, you know, it's just, it's so irrelevant, you know.

Henning Müller [00:22:26] Yeah, same in Germany. You wouldn't really have any campaigning going on for, let's say one or two months before the election actually takes place.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:22:35] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:22:36] And you wouldn't be involved in seeing how a candidate of a particular party is being elected to being the representative that would represent his party as a chancellor.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:22:48] And I think that members here, I can imagine they could vote in many different directions. I mean, everything from socialist to conservative. And I don't see why that would be a problem.

Henning Müller [00:23:04] I guess what you see here in Germany is the question of gay marriage and the question of legal abortion. Those would be things that would polarize even members. Other than that, you don't really see any strong turn towards the conservative parties on the side of true believing Latter Day Saints. You would have many true believing Latter Day Saints that would be, that would, you know, vote or advocate for the Green Party or for the, for the liberals or for the Social Democrats as opposed to the Christian Democratic Union here. And that would be representative of what you would have as a Republicans over in the states. Right. So I guess in general Mormons tend to be more conservative, but that is definitely not such a, such a strong pull there as it would be in the states. And that seems to be very similar to what's going on in Norway.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:23:54] Yeah, I would say so, yeah. As an example, Norway's marriage equality law came into effect. I think it was, I think it was 2007, 8. Not quite sure. But you know, we see how big of a deal the Supreme Court ruling was in the US and Proposition 8 and just how American Mormonism has been dominated by right wing politics with regards to the gay marriage question. And here, because I would have still been attending church at the time and I mean, I don't think that most of the members, you know, were really supportive of gay marriage by any means, but it just wasn't so much of an issue.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:24:47] And I can be barely remember it even being mentioned when Norway changed its laws to allow for marriage equality. And, you know, I think the attitude, my impression at least is that the attitude of members here is like, well, you know, it happened and it doesn't really affect us one way or the other. We can disagree with it, but there's nothing to get all riled up about in the way that we see, you know, in the US These dire predictions of society, society's downfall and how the family's going to be torn apart. I mean, that just doesn't happen here.

Henning Müller [00:25:27] Yeah, the four horsemen of the apocalypse are approaching every time the US have an election. Isn't that amazing? It's just absolutely fascinating. I guess the absurdity of that soap opera is something that is so amazing to us here in Europe that we love to watch it, you know, love to anticipate it and I guess does something for their.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:25:47] Somehow we're still standing, you know, these European countries and Canada, you know, despite gay marriage, you know, somehow we've managed to survive. Right.

Henning Müller [00:25:57] All right. Well, it's awesome to riff with you a little bit about American politics and European, you know, political landscape, but going back, so. So you were still around 2008 and you would have had the conversation with your branch president, or let's say not a conversation with your branch president, but particularly with your stake president, perhaps. But would you say that your. That your testimony would have tipped over the. Over the line and that the dam would have broken back in the day? You mentioned something about having listened to Grand Palmer's podcast as well.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:26:26] Yeah, yeah, definitely would have been around that time.

Henning Müller [00:26:29] Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that as well?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:26:33] I think if I remember correctly, I probably by the time I was having this email exchange with the stake president and really it was a very respectful exchange. I have nothing but respect for him and the branch president. Very nice, you know, thoughtful guys. And I guess I can't really blame them for their not being able to really deal with my questions. And so, yeah, I think by the time I had this email exchange with them, I was probably pretty much on my way out and realizing that I just wasn't going to be able to make this middle way work for me.

Henning Müller [00:27:25] Oh, okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:27:27] Because I think I, I mean, even, you know, through the whole. What I discovered through the politics and all the questions that arose from that and reconciling I guess, my political ideas. And I'm really. I'm sort of all over the place politically. I don't really identify with the left or the right. I suppose by American standards, I'm on the left, but by European standards, I can go pretty much anyway on most issues, and I'm quite moderate. So I wouldn't say that the politics is what drove me out of the church. I think that's a misconception.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:28:11] I think politics is a phase that a lot of people go through that may. Sort of be a catalyst to asking more questions. And then. So it's a step in the process, perhaps, of leaving for a lot of people.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:28:33] So for me, I think what was impossible for me to reconcile was not the politics, but the history and, you know, learning what I did about Joseph Smith and the origins of the church. And, yeah, I have. I listen, of course, to Mormon Stories avidly and read a lot. But I had an experience, I think, when I listened to Grant Palmer's first podcast with. With John de Lim. That would have been what year it would have been probably 2007. 8. I'm not sure it was among the first episodes. I think it was around episode 30 of Mormon Stories. And that podcast with Grant, really, I remember listening to it in bed at night and feeling like I was at a turning point in my life, that this things were never going to be the same.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:29:38] It was like I just finally had come to the conclusion, and I felt kind of at peace with the realization that, okay, the church is not true, you know, not like I had been taught that it was. It wasn't what I thought it was. Joseph Smith, he either made the whole thing up, lied, or he was perhaps looted.

Henning Müller [00:30:11] Would that be the conclusion that Grant Palmer would have come to, though?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:30:19] Yeah. I have to think back to what he actually said, but I.

Henning Müller [00:30:22] Well, I do remember him bearing a strong witness of his encounter with the. With the Redeemer. Right. At least by spirit.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:30:30] Yeah. Because he's still very Christian, isn't he, Grant? Yes.

Henning Müller [00:30:35] He gave a very moving testimony of how he was, how he felt. The voice of the Lord telling him, look, it's all going to be okay. Just immediately after this arduous excommunication that he went through.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:30:50] Right. And I felt I could really relate to that feeling he was describing, even though, to me, it wasn't like I felt like that I was being given a revelation from God or Jesus. I think I didn't really have an opinion about that one way or the other. I just knew that I felt like, okay, all this was done. Disturbing. Like, now I finally realized this was all just.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:31:24] It just wasn't what I've been led to believe for almost 30 years. But at the same time, it was a huge relief. I remember feeling like just this burden had been lifted and that now I could finally stop these exhausting mental gymnastics of trying to reconcile things that just felt like they couldn't be reconciled and trying to fit into this box and still, you know, dealing with the guilt of having married outside of the church and never going to be able to be what I was supposed to be. And even though I had already started to let go of those. Those ideas now it was like I was really starting to feel the freedom and it felt exhilarating and incredibly liberating.

Overcoming Depression and Finding Purpose

Henning Müller [00:32:23] Would you say, would you go as far as to say that this was a turning point for your initial anxiety and feelings of depression that you had ever since your youth?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:32:35] It's interesting because at the time, I think after I came to this realization, I felt quite at peace, really, and free and had a really good period in my life, which we can go into soon when I started working with asylum seekers. But actually in 2012, I hit a really difficult period that sort of came out of the blue for me. I didn't expect it to come right then because I thought I was finally really at peace with the church and had put the worst of it behind me and that I was moving forward.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:33:24] But in 2011, I had really a scary experience, something I had never experienced before. Even though I had struggled with anxiety and depression and the physical symptoms of manifested itself so intensely, so strongly that even with my previous experience and knowledge, I didn't recognize it as being depression related.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:33:57] And so what happened was I started, I remember having. I had had a strep throat infection and just feeling kind of under the weather and struggling with headaches and difficulty swallowing, which isn't so unusual when you have strep throat. But once I recovered from the infection, I was not feeling any better.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:34:25] And so for a period of several months, it would be a bit up and down, but it got to the point where I was almost not eating anything. And it wasn't because I was, you know, anorexic or, you know, had issues with food. It was because I had such immense tension built up in my body that it was affecting the muscles in my head. I was having, like, chronic tension headaches by this time, and the muscles, like in my throat and in my face and my neck. And so for a while I thought that the Doctor thought perhaps it was a bad sinus infection. You know, I had this really bad sinus pressure and sent for a CT scan, and everything came out negative.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:22] All my blood work was fine and just couldn't figure out what was going on. I did a lot of research online, and I was getting really bad by this point because I was hardly eating, I was losing weight, and by this time, I was starting to feel more like, of a classic depression setting in because I was starving all the time and had no energy and just felt awful.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:47] So eventually I realized, you know, maybe this is something psychological. I mean, the physical symptoms are very real, but there wasn't a pathological reason for them. You know, there wasn't. I wasn't physically ill. And so I went to my doctor, and he persisted. He prescribed an antidepressant, and this was the first time I had.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:36:13] I had periods of my life. Previously, I had considered perhaps consulting my doctor about trying an antidepressant during difficult periods, but I would always bounce back. And so I never went down the road of medication. But now I was desperate.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:36:32] So I was prescribed an antidepressant, and he referred me to a neuropsychologist. So after a couple weeks, I started to feel difference, and then things got gradually better. Since then, I've been talking to a neuropsychologist, which is really good for me because she has an understanding of the brain and how it works and my physical symptoms and how to deal with them. And to. You know, we've talked a lot about the church and other things in my past that have affected me. And so learning how, I guess, to deal with those and to recognize, you know, thought patterns that aren't so good for me.

Working with Asylum Seekers Across Europe

Henning Müller [00:37:18] Okay, so you already alluded to this, right? Speaking about the asylum seekers and having worked with them. When did you start working with asylum seekers? Was that part of the refugee crisis that obviously experienced here in Germany particularly, but. Or was that a lot sooner already?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:37:34] Well, what happened was this would have been around. It would have been 2010. So.

Henning Müller [00:37:40] Okay, that is really quite early then. And that would have been initially after your. After the dam broke for your testimony.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:37:47] Right. So this was just around the time that I was leaving the church. It was around the time, I guess you could say, I was going through the death throes of Mormonism, because I remember the last time I attended church was in May of 2010, and I still remember my last church sacrament meeting, and there was a member of the branch presidency giving a talk, and, you know, once again, a good guy Nothing against his people. But in the talk, he was talking about polygamy and how sometimes, you know, there's a reason for it and that it was approved by God and in the same breadth, you know, was condemning homosexual relationships. And I just felt like I was done.

Henning Müller [00:38:50] I thought, that's crazy.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:38:52] You know, I'm done. And I said to myself, if I miss it, I'll come back. I didn't consciously say, okay, this is the last time I'm ever coming to church. I said, you know, I feel like I need to leave, that I'm done, but if I miss it, I'll come back.

Henning Müller [00:39:10] So hold on. This guy was actually in church when he advocated for polygamy?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:15] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:39:16] Was that just a participant in elders court or. No, obviously Sunday school or something in sacrament meeting. So he gave a talk. He advocated for polygamy in the sacrament meeting.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:26] Right. Advocated for. I mean, not polygamy now, but that. That polygamy in our history was for a reason and that it was approved of, you know, by God.

Henning Müller [00:39:37] Okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:38] It was divinely inspired.

Henning Müller [00:39:39] Okay. All right. And here. And he had a clear stance against homosexual relationships of any kind in that same talk.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:46] Right. It was as simple as that. God has said, so that. That's the way it's supposed to be.

Henning Müller [00:39:53] Awesome. Okay. So. Right. And then you said that was sort of what made the barrel tip over. Right. So you didn't go back afterwards.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:40:05] Right. So it was around this time, just previous to this, because my last church service was in May. It was in February of that same year. I had. I can tell first a bit about how this asylum process works in Norway and in Europe, because for any of our North American listeners, it's quite different. Because although, you know, Canada and the US Accepts a lot of immigrants, Canada and the US do not get the number of asylum seekers that Europe does.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:40:42] Because of Europe's geographical location versus North America's geographical location, it's just simply easier for people to get to Europe and to apply for asylum. So most of the, what we would call refugees who are coming to Canada or the U.S.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:41:01] these are people who have already been processed and given refugee status by UNHCR and are coming to North America and being able to resettle as refugees. Whereas in Europe, most of these people are undocumented asylum seekers, migrants who are coming to countries all over Europe and trying to get asylum, and they're coming now in the millions.

Henning Müller [00:41:36] You know, as we've seen, we're clearly seeing different numbers because in the States there are what, 72,000. That they've accepted this year just in the United States. It's amazing, Right. If you think about the impact American politics has on what is actually going on in the Middle east that caused these issues, you would have thought that they would carry a bulk of the burden of that crisis.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:42:01] Yeah, that's been a big.

Henning Müller [00:42:04] All of them end up in Western Europe. So, yeah, Germany has accepted some, roughly a million. So we were actually forecasting 800,000 this year, but it ended up more like a million. Yeah.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:42:17] And one important thing to clarify is that when we say that Europe has accepted, you know, over a million refugees accepted does not mean that they have been accepted in the same sense that, for example, a refugee through UNHCR is being accepted into Canada now from Syria. Because these people, like I said, have already been processed, they've been approved, and they're being accepted and resettled into Canada and they're being given refugee status now. Many of, and I'm sure many of these asylum seekers, of the roughly 1 million asylum seekers that have come to Germany, how many of those are actually going to be accepted and given legal status in Germany remains to be seen.

Henning Müller [00:43:11] That is correct. Although that being said, Angela Merkel made it very, very clear that she wants for these people to contribute into the Social Security system. They would have to work for that. Right. So that gives you a little bit of an indication there that this is not just an interim number, because the people that will end up staying will probably pull in their families as well.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:43:32] Yes, exactly. Yeah. So in the case of Germany. Yeah, that's a good point about them being able to work, because what choice do you have when you have over a million people? You can't have a million people sitting and doing nothing. And they could be there for years as their cases are being processed. This is not the case. Everywhere in Norway, asylum seekers normally are not able to work. So this year in Norway, we've received about 30,000 asylum seekers. In Sweden, it's, I think, 80,000 plus. So Sweden per capita, I believe, you know, based on their population, has received at least as many as Germany has, I think.

Henning Müller [00:44:24] Yeah.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:44:25] So they're overwhelmed. Absolutely.

Henning Müller [00:44:27] Percentage wise.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:44:28] Yeah. So, but the way it works in Norway is that when an asylum seeker comes to Norway and they usually go to a police station, usually in Oslo, and they'll apply for asylum. And from there they're sent to something that in Norwegian we call an asyl mutual, which means an asylum, like a refuge, asylum seeker reception center.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:45:00] And these centers are spread all throughout the country from Oslo to down south in Norway, to far in the north. And so while these people are waiting for their applications to be processed by the immigration authorities, they will live at one of these centers for sometimes it can be years.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:45:24] I know of people who have lived there for six, seven years. There's even a horror story of one poor man from Eritrea who has not been accepted, but he can't be sent back either. And he is living there. He's been living there now for over 25 years in political limbo with no right to work, no. No right to go to school. It's a very, very difficult situation. Yeah, yeah.

Henning Müller [00:45:52] So it's like being stuck in prison, right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:45:55] It is.

Henning Müller [00:45:56] Because he can't work, he can't go to school, he can't do anything. All he can do is just get the couple of hundred euros a month from the legal authorities and has to be there per definite. My goodness. Okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:46:10] Yeah. So one of these centers happened to be in the town where I live in Welf, and it has since closed. They closed it last year because it needed too many renovations. But in 2010, I had read a story in the local newspaper about this place, and, you know, I had seen it and passed away by it and thought, I wonder what it would be like to go there. You know, like, I knew there were people from different countries, and I thought, well, you know, would they welcome me? Would it be safe?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:46:51] But anyway, in this newspaper article, it said that while the local Norwegian population was really good about donating things, you know, like clothes and old washing machines and TVs, it was very difficult to get people to want to come and spend time with these people and talk to them.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:47:12] Because, remember, most of them are not allowed to work. Most of them. Some of them go to, like, a Norwegian class for a few months maybe, but after that, there's nothing left for them to do. So I got in contact with the manager of the camp, as they called it, and he welcomed me. Norwegian. Norwegian guy. And he showed me around and introduced me to people from many different countries. And so that was the beginning of a really important and enriching experience in my life. It really taught me a lot about people and the world because, you know, I met people from Afghanistan, Somalia, Palestine, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Chechnya, Iran, Iraq, Turkey.

Henning Müller [00:48:16] Minister as well.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:48:19] At the time. No, there was actually, in 2010, I remember there only being one Syrian family, and they had initially had their application rejected, but later on they had it overturned once. Things in Syria got really bad. So from my first day there, I was overwhelmed by the warmth of these people.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:48:44] These people, many of them were just starving for contact with the outside world, you know, because most. Most Norwegian people never entered the doors of a place like this. And they. The first day that I came, they thought I was a new asylum seeker, you know, because I. I don't look Norwegian. And. And they were sure that I was Iranian or Kurdish. And I said, well, no, I'm from Canada. And that just made no sense to them why a Canadian was coming to the camp.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:49:18] But on my very first day, I remember thinking I had the day off, and I thought, I'll probably spend, I don't know, maybe an hour or so talking to people. I ended up spending eight hours there because, you know, they made me dinner. They wanted to hear about Canada and about my life in Norway and about my family. And of course, I wanted to hear their stories, you know, to hear where they were from and met some really, really nice people, really nice family. A mother, a widow from. From Iraq, whose husband had been kidnapped in Baghdad, presumed dead, and she escaped with her two young daughters.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:50:03] And. And they got asylum. They're still here. And another young man from Afghanistan who we've become very close with, he ended up becoming like a family member to us now. But I was just blown away by their hospitality and the stimulating conversation, and so they treated me so kindly and made some really good friends, and I knew that they. They really sincerely enjoyed my company, and I did theirs as well. And so it was a very worthwhile experience.

Exploring Islam and Other Faiths After Mormonism

Henning Müller [00:50:45] So what happened in your own thought process of emancipating yourself from your Mormon upbringing by working with those asylum seekers?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:50:53] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:50:53] You indicated that you drew some parallels between Mormonism and Islam and some of the statements coming from general authorities with some of the statements coming from Islam leaders.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:04] Yeah. So most of the people that I met, of course, were Muslims, some were Shia, especially amongst the Hazara population. Hazara is an ethnic minority in Afghanistan. And for those who have read the Kite Runner, the boy Hassan in the Kite Runner, he was Hazara. The Hazara is an oppressed ethnic minority in Afghanistan who has really suffered, suffered under the Taliban and now still, you know, from the Pashtun majority and now ISIS as well.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:44] So I got to know them, and most of the others were Sunni Muslims. And so I was, you know, here I was coming, just coming out of my experience with Mormonism, and I wasn't looking for a new religion by any means, but I was curious. And one thing that I really liked about hanging out with these Muslims was it sort of felt like hanging out with Mormons again, but in a way that I didn't have to carry all this baggage that I did as a Mormon because I wasn't a Muslim. I wasn't one of them. I don't think that they were expecting me to become Muslim.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:52:26] But, you know, one thing I really love about Mormonism that I always loved and I still do, is, you know, the way of life in terms of what we would call, like, clean living. Muslims normally drink. They're not big partiers, they're big on family, they're really friendly and, you know, a lot of the same really positive characteristics that you find in Mormons you find in Muslims as well. I felt at home with them. And of course, I was curious about the religion. And, you know, I had heard, you know, things about Islam and Muslims from the media and from reading, and I didn't really know what to expect, whether there was anything to fear or were things that I had heard negative things about Islam or Muslims.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:53:21] Was it just exaggerations? Was it blown out of proportion? I just wanted to find out for myself. So I was going in with a blank slate, and I was open to meeting with them, talking with them, and I read the Quran and met the full thing.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:53:42] The whole Quran. Yeah. I got to know a young man from Somalia. Very nice, very polite young man, spoke very good English and very, very devout Muslim. And he. I think we had talked a little bit about religion. I had probably told him that I was Mormon, that I had been Christian, that I was interested in learning about religion. And so he pulled out a copy of the Quran and he lent it to me. And I said, I promise I'll read it. And I'm sure he was hoping that I would become converted.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:54:22] The Quran that he gave me was. It was in English. It was a translation by. I believe it was back from the 1970s, I can't remember, but it was by a Muslim scholar, I guess, and complete with commentary on the text.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:54:39] And it was. I realized, I think it's important to point out that there are many different interpretations of the Quran, just as there are with the Bible. So I realized that I only read one interpretation of it and that there are others. The one that I read was, I think, a very conservative interpretation.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:55:02] Whereas the, you know, the Quran text itself is basically the same, regardless of the version. The interpretation was quite extreme in its descriptions of Jews, of debates over the role of women, and, for example, how far it is acceptable to discipline your wife in accordance with Sharia law. You know, like how Much of a beating. Can you give her what is acceptable, what isn't? And so that was disturbing also.

Henning Müller [00:55:45] Did you approach your Somali friend about this?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:55:48] I didn't. I was. I think I was becoming aware of the darker side of Islam and some of their beliefs, but I wanted to focus solely on their positive qualities and the nice conversations we were having, the friendships I was developing. And I felt like I didn't want to rock the boat. And I was a little bit unsure of how they would react if I challenged them.

Henning Müller [00:56:19] Yeah, I get that. I get that. And I've had similar experiences where I actually approached the darker side and got some negative repercussions from that as well. Did you have a chance to go into, let's say, different interpretations there as well, or did you only focus on the conservative interpretation? Interpretation there? Did you have a chance to go into Sufi text, Sufi mysticism at all?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:56:42] No, I read a book about Islam that touched on Sufism, but I haven't really read too much about it also because I don't know any Sufis. I think I was more curious about the Shia and Sunni because up there, the majority of the Muslims here in Norway, especially Sunni.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:57:04] And so back to my Somali friend. I remember after he had. After I had read the Quran, he sent me a video on Facebook. I think it was his way of, like, proselytizing to me. Sort of the same way that a Mormon would give somebody the Book of Mormon and encourage them, you know, to.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:57:27] To pray about it. And he sent me some video clips about Islam and I remember him saying something like, oh, when you see these, you'll realize the truth, or whatever. And it was just this really awful portrayal of Jews and it was quite disturbing. I only saw it once and I didn't respond to him. And actually I never heard back from him. He left and resettled in Germany.

Henning Müller [00:58:00] So he hoped that you would discover the truth of Islam by a material that focuses on bashing Jews.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:58:08] I suppose he hoped that I would realize that the Judeo Christian tradition was wrong and that the Islamic tradition was the right one and that I would come to realize the truth through that. I don't know. I don't know what his line of thinking was. But back to your question about other interpretations.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:58:34] I haven't read any other interpretations of the Quran, but I have read different interpretations online. Everything from really horrible conservative, like ultra conservative views on women where, you know, that advocate the beating of women all the way to, you know, people who completely repudiate those views. And I think more recently, I'VE become aware of even feminists within Islam. There's a strong feminist movement.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:59:11] In some ways, you could even say that a small number of them have maybe even gotten further than their Mormon counterparts. I've read, in fact, of some female imams in the U.S. i mean, there are not many, but female imams who are at least administering to other female Muslims in their local communities. So I think that's important to point out that there are just so many different ways of interpreting the Quran and of living Islam just as it is with really any other religion as well.

Henning Müller [00:59:54] Okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:59:55] There's constant debate about what's Islamic doctrine and what isn't. I mean, isn't it the same in Mormonism? Try to have a conversation with Mormons. What's Mormon doctrine and what isn't. Good luck.

Henning Müller [01:00:18] Thank you for listening. The music for this podcast episode comes from the Lower Lights. You can visit their website@thelowerlights.com the logo has been donated by studiocase.com I'm wishing you all the very best. Until next time here at Mormon Stories Germany,

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 611

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:00:02] Be still my soul. The Lord is on my side.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:00:10] Hello, and very welcome to Mormon Stories Germany. The podcasts of Mormon Stories Germany are directed particularly at European or German listeners who self identify as Mormons, regardless of church affiliation or membership. Any participation or support of Mormon Stories Germany is aimed at building friendships and communities of support or healing, and to create places where sincere questions and honest inquiries are welcome. If you wish to support the building of communities in Central Europe or the creation of podcasts or even the website, then get in contact with me or become a subscriber@mormonstoriesgermany.org.

Comparing Conservative Views in Islam and Mormonism

Henning Müller [00:00:58] All right, Claudia, so we were just discussing parallels that you found were in the more conservative views between Islam and Mormonism. Can you tell me a little bit about what, in your opinion is a strong similarity between Islam and Mormonism and in the way it shaped your own viewpoint?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:01:15] Yeah. As I talked before about the culture and how I felt really at home, you know, with these Muslims in terms of their lifestyle, I honestly felt a lot of time that Mormonism or Mormon culture seems to have a lot more in common with Muslim culture than with other Christian culture in a lot of ways because it's really conservative. You have very set gender roles. There's a real focus on the family, on clean living, the dietary laws and alcohol and sex.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:02:02] And also that when you dissent or if you leave either Mormonism or Islam, the consequences can be devastating and perhaps even much more so for Muslims. For some Muslims who risk their lives by doing so, in Mormonism, I think the stakes are not quite so high. But Mormons can lose a lot by leaving the religion or leaving the culture.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:02:32] So certainly there's the cultural aspect that I think is there's a lot of similarities. You know, what happened was I had been having all these great experiences with these refugees and learning so much and making such good friends.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:02:50] And at the same time, I was becoming increasingly uncomfortable with some of the aspects of Islamic culture and religion. For example, when we were together with friends from Afghanistan or Arab friends, as a woman, as a Western woman, they treated me really the same way that they did the men. I was welcome at the dinner table. I was welcome to a dance during a celebration, an Eid celebration. But I was very troubled by the fact that their own women did not have the same privilege.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:03:36] Their own women were sent to a separate room to have their own dance with the children, or they did not eat at the table with all the men, and that it was really difficult because I didn't want to attend, appear ungrateful for their Hospitality.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:03:56] And I wanted to respect that they come from a different culture than I do, but I just felt really uncomfortable with it. And I was also very mindful of the things that were going on within Mormonism around this time. This is probably around the time when the ordained women movement was really starting to get attention. And I was very aware of the backlash, that the ordained women were getting comments, and just some really harsh, terrible comments sometimes. And so I felt like, you know, it was getting hard to distinguish between my feelings.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:04:44] What was bothering me inside. Was it Islam? Was it Mormonism? Was Islam giving me a worse view on Mormonism, or was it vice versa? It was becoming increasingly difficult to separate the two. And it sort of came to a disturbing development when a couple years ago, I had the experience a couple of completely separate incidents where a couple of friends who. People I considered friends, who were Muslim, both of them, and I had invited them into my home. They seemed like good people, did not seem to me to be particularly concerned with religious dogma, but both of them started to express views and sympathies with some very disturbing Islamic extremist groups.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:05:58] One of them even sharing ISIS propaganda on Facebook. And that really disturbed me. That hit really close to home because I knew all this stuff was out there, but I didn't expect it to come from people that I knew who seemed so moderate, even liberal to me.

Henning Müller [00:06:19] Amazing. Amazing.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:06:20] Yeah. So this caused me to. I think I became more curious about this darker side of Islam. And when I was reading, I came across teachings related to women in particular, that, of course, were disturbing, but disturbing in themselves, but even more disturbing to me because they just seemed so similar to the rhetoric and the ideas that I had grown up with in the church.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:06:58] So I thought maybe I could share some quotes to sort of compare what we hear from Mormon leaders and what we hear from some of these Islamist groups. And I want to be clear about my reasons for picking these Islamic quotes in particular, because as I said before, there are many different interpretations. There are absolutely feminist, progressive, liberal voices that are in the Islamic world that paint a much better view of the role of women than this. This is obviously an extreme example, and I don't want to, you know, to be accused of trying to make wild comparisons here, because obviously, Mormonism is not radical Islam.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:07:57] There's just no parallel between Mormonism today and, like, the grotesque violence that we're seen by ISIS and these groups. So I'm not trying to say that Mormonism is as dangerous as isis, but what I am trying to say is that there is a parallel in their rhetoric and the teachings that many probably aren't even aware of. And I think that there are psychological consequences for Mormon girls and women in particular, in how they view themselves because of these teachings. And I, I believe this because of my own experience. I know how it felt as a young girl and as a woman and even as a post Mormon woman.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:08:46] You know how hearing these things can still bring back old feelings and discomfort. And I really think there are consequences not only for women, but not only for Mormon women, but for Mormon men in how they view themselves in relation to the females in their lives.

Henning Müller [00:09:09] So those statements and quotes would be catalysts for these, for this kind of mindset then, in your opinion?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:09:14] Yes, I think so. And I'm. I guess I'm sort of bringing this to light into sort of. I don't know, I wonder if maybe we could generate a discussion or if other, if we'll hear from other people, other Europeans who, you know, maybe have had similar thoughts or.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:09:35] I don't know. But I'm just interested sort of in bringing them to light, to exploring them and to looking at these parallels, which I'm very uncomfortable with. You know, I had to really think long and hard about how to even broach this subject because it's not easy to discuss Islam and I'm not an expert. It's not my field of expertise. I'm not a Muslim, I'm not a student of Islamic studies. It's more just of a hobby, you know, personal study. And I'm, I'm not interested in, you know, being an Islamic critic. I don't see that as being my role as a non Muslim, but as a, as a post Mormon, I am interested in examining it from this Mormon perspective. And so.

Henning Müller [00:10:28] No, that's fine. I mean, you've already shared your disclaimer in preparation and I encouraged you to go ahead with it because it played such an integral part in forming your own faith journey or determining the course of your own faith journey there. And the way you reflected your experience with Islam and the quotes that you have shared with me that would describe the Muslim view of the gender roles, not necessarily some off the cuff remarks or off the cuff quotes there. But you're quoting from the Hamas charter on the role of Muslim women, where you're quoting on the manifesto on women by, by Al Khonsabregad, which is the religious enforcement unit on the Islamic State isis. Right, so. So this is not off the cuff. I mean, those are official things coming from these two institutions.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:11:20] Yes, very. You know well established Islamist groups who have a very large influence on a lot of. So I wonder how people will. Because I'm assuming that most people, most of our listeners haven't actually read the Hamas charter or, you know, ISIS propaganda. It's kind of strange, I guess, that I started even reading all this stuff. But it's fascinating from a very sort of morbid point of view. But. Yeah, so maybe I can. I wonder if maybe we should start reading. I picked out first just some rather recent quotes by LDS leaders with regards to the role of women. And I thought maybe I could just read a few of those first and then afterwards read these quotes from the Muslim point of view. But so the first one, what I

Parallel Teachings on Women in Mormon and Muslim Texts

Henning Müller [00:12:28] found quite amazing in preparation when you and I had this discussion about this was that you exchanged the terms, right. And you found them quite interchangeably.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:12:37] That's true. In fact, a couple years ago I was reading a Muslim apologetic site online. I believe it was written by Muslim women, for Muslim women. They had a. An article about the hijab and the reasoning behind it and why it's important to wear the hijab. And I was struck by the similarity in the language and I thought, you know what, I'm going to do an experiment here. And what I did was I took the text from this article and I changed the word hijab to I think, modesty. And I switched like a Quran quote to a verse from the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:13:24] And I think I included a quote by Julie Beck. And so it was very minimal, the changes that I made. And just as an experiment, I copied this text and shared it in a couple of, I think on a couple of Mormon LDS women's Facebook pages. I can't remember which one, but just wanted to see whether I would get any pushback, whether people would say, you know what, that sounds kind of extreme to me, you know, like modesty, you know, being described like that. And I didn't get any pushback and I even got a few likes.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:14:03] So I just found that really interesting. So. But that's as far as I took that experiment. But ever since then, I think I've been really interested in. In comparing the two traditions and seeing these parallels.

Henning Müller [00:14:22] Go for it, Go for it. I want to hear it.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:14:25] So this first quote I've chosen is from April 2010 by M. Russell Ballard from a talk he gave in general conference called Mothers and Daughters. And he says, quote, throughout the history of the world, women have always been teachers of moral values. That instruction begins in the cradle and continues throughout the lives of their children. Today, our society is bombarded with messages about womanhood and motherhood that are dangerously and wickedly wrong. Following these messages can put your daughters on the path to sin and self destruction. Your daughters may not understand that unless you tell them, or better, unless you show them how to make good choices. As mothers in Israel, you are your daughter's first line of defense against the wiles of the world.

Henning Müller [00:15:22] The funny thing is, I'm just reading the quotes from the Hamas charter in comparison to that, Right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:15:28] Yeah. Do you want to read one?

Henning Müller [00:15:30] Sure. The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation. They manufacture men and play a great role in guiding and educating the new generation. The enemies have understood that role. Therefore, they realize that if they can guide and educate the Muslim women in a way that would distance them from Islam, they would have won that war.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:15:54] Yeah, I just find that so interesting. Like, I think back to, you know, statements by general authorities talking about how Satan, you know, entices women to pursue careers or activities other than motherhood. Right. And how emphasizing that the. The. The prime purpose of women is to provide spirit children with physical bodies. So, you know, Hamas refers to them as manufacturers of men, but, you know, for Mormon women, it is to provide spirit children with spiritual bodies.

Henning Müller [00:16:37] But you have the war rhetoric and the polarizing black or white approach. Right, Right. We are for freedom and good values. And the other one is the enemy needs to be fought. I guess the second quote goes even more closer to the first one that you mentioned mentioned from. Who was that? M. Russell Ballard. Was that from.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:16:56] Yeah, that was Russell Ballard.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:16:58] Okay.

Henning Müller [00:16:59] All right, so the second quote here is also from the Hamas charter, says the women in the house and the family of jihad fighters, whether they are mothers or sisters, carry out the most important duty of caring for the home and raising the children upon the moral concept and values which derive from Islam and of educating their sons to observe the religious injunctions, preparation for the duty of jihad awaiting them. Therefore, we must pay attention to the schools and curriculi upon which Muslim girls are educated so as to make them righteous mothers who are conscious of their duties in the war of liberation. They must be fully capable of being aware and of grasping the ways to manage their households.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:17:43] So here we see again, you know, motherhood being put on. Put on a pedestal that, you know, in LDS culture we hear this all the time, that mothers have the most important responsibility. And, you know, that's the reasoning giving for why we don't need the Priesthood. Right. Because we have the most important responsibility and anything else just pales in comparison. And, you know, the reference to, you know, Muslim girls being educated to make them righteous mothers isn't that we hear, you know, in young women's all the time, that that's why there's such an intense focus on motherhood already in young women, is to make sure that these young girls become, you know, quote unquote, righteous mothers in Zion and raise sons to become, you know, not jihadi fighters, but righteous priesthood holders.

Henning Müller [00:18:45] Yeah, yeah. You could exchange the terms and make it resonate very well.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:18:51] Yeah, I can read another one. Another LDS quote, this time by Julie Beck. She has some classics. And if you talk to Mormon feminists, you know, and ask them what. What quotes have bothered them the most throughout history, I think Julie Beck is up there.

Henning Müller [00:19:16] Yeah, I think it's Lindsay Hanson park who does an awesome interpretation of Julie Beck.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:19:21] So Julie Beck's now legendary talk from October 2007, mothers who know, she said, the responsibility mothers have today has never required more vigilance. More than at any time in the history of the world. We need mothers to know children are being born into a world where they wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. However, mothers need not fear. When mothers know who they are and who God is and have made covenants with him, they will have great power and influence for good on their children. And then she continues on just to say, mothers who know desire to bear children. Faithful daughters of God desire children. Mothers who know are nurturers. This is their special assignment and role under the plan of happiness.

Henning Müller [00:20:26] Okay, see what I find here that comes closest is actually comes from the manifesto on women by the Al Qanshah Brigade from the Islamic State. So that the greatness of her position, the mother's position, the purpose of her existence, is the divine duty of motherhood. Truly, greatness is bestowed upon her, and it is God's will that our children honor her.

Henning Müller [00:20:57] And indeed, carrying a son of Adam, nurturing and preparing him for life is a difficult job that God has bequeathed to the wife of Adam because he has given her physical and psychological nature things which qualify only the women for this arduous task that God bequeathed to her. For this, she receives a great reward from the Lord, something that would not come to her from any other employer of any other job, however hard she worked or succeeded, and the great right that may not be paid back no matter what the child does for his mother, he does not pay back even one contraction.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:21:38] So that, you know those two quotes you just read, I think you could put that in an LDS manual and nobody would know the difference. Like, yeah, that could be completely, completely lds. I'm reminded of that teaching by, I can't remember which general authority that no success can compensate for failure in the home. And I think that's dissuaded or scared a lot of LDS women from pursuing goals or a career outside of the home. Because you're taught to fear the consequences of ever stepping outside of the home, that you know your family's gonna fall apart and that you can't be happy.

Henning Müller [00:22:30] Yeah. You mentioned the ordain women movement and the reaction of the church towards this feminist movement and I guess ISIS would have something to say on that matter. The model preferred by infidels in the west failed the minute that women were liberated from their cell in the house. Problems emerged one after another after they took on corrupted ideas and shoddy minded beliefs instead of religion, Sharia and the methodology of life that was ordained by God. The falsity of these ideas were made evident by governments giving salaries to those who return to their homes and raise their children, finally openly accepting that they are housewives.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:23:12] Yeah, yeah. The Mormon feminists movement and the view that a lot of Mormons have of the feminist movement in general. I think Mormons tend to view, you know, what has happened in the secular world as having brought a sort of counterfeit version of liberation and sort of missing, you know, the good old days when men were men and women were women and how the blurring of these God appointed gender roles is like the root of all society's problems, you know, both for Muslims and for Mormons.

Henning Müller [00:23:52] Yeah, that's an interesting side by side analysis that you're doing. Right. And I know the place this is coming from. So this is not to put Islam nor Mormonism on one level.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:24:04] Right.

Henning Müller [00:24:04] That is not the idea. And obviously we have to do with complex churches and complex cultures. So I guess it is about being aware of the beginnings. Right. Being aware of the, of the traces of these types of societies in our own culture and what it could turn to if we turn to that kind of a rhetoric and extremist viewpoints.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:24:28] Yeah, yeah, I guess I'm very concerned about the, the psychological consequences of this. I mean, first and foremost the psychological consequences. We can. And also consider the consequences on society. I mean, look at much of the Muslim world where half of the population is basically shut out of society and from participating fully and the consequences that has on a society, on a nation.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:25:01] But I think about my growing up in the church and the struggles I had with, with these teachings because there are many, many examples like this. I only had to search through a few to find these quotes. But I think back to my growing up and those feelings that I had and the difficulties that I had. And yet I was very lucky because I grew up in a secular society.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:25:31] And that's something that, you know, most Muslim women do not have. You know, they do not live in a secular society. They can't simply leave their faith community and pursue a career or an education. That's just not an option for a lot of them.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:25:50] And in, I think of a place like Utah where, you know, you have such a high percentage of very conservative Mormons and although, you know, they technically also live in a technically secular society and that they definitely have more resources than most Muslim women would have in many of these third world countries still, I mean, the psychological personal consequences are enormous for these women and yeah, I just really feel for them.

Henning Müller [00:26:26] So what kind of change would you like to see in the church then? You know, to quote John Dolan's earlier questions there that he asked in his earlier podcasts all the time, you know, given you were made prophet of the church now and you were to, you know, call the shots and make the decisions and pull the strings and so forth, how would you retain membership, retain tithing, income and still make the kind of change that you would like to see?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:26:50] Yeah, I think you could make two, I call them small changes. Maybe some would beg to differ, but two main changes that I think would make a huge difference. And the first one would be with regards to women. Give men and women the same ecclesiastical opportunities, the same status in the church, the same opportunities for administering, for serving and influencing in the church, and then I think the rest would fall into place. In terms of culture and the pressure that, you know, that I felt as a young girl with regards to marriage and babies. I mean, I don't think there needs to be any criticism or reducing the value of what we would call a more traditional gender role for the women who are happy and fulfilled as stay at home mothers or, or raising large families, I have no problem with that.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:27:56] My mother was a stay at home mother. I grew up happy and I'm sure I could have been happy as well if she had worked. I don't think that we need to value one path above the other. So I think that that changed just having men and women side by Side operating as equals, I think would make a big difference, because I see it. I've seen it in the Norwegian Lutheran Church, where women are priests and bishops, and it's just not an issue. And even perhaps more relevant to me, has been able to see it in the community of Christ.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:28:35] I've been able to attend a few Community of Christ meetings here in Norway, even though there are very few members, but a friend of mine is a member. And it's just. I just don't see how it's a threat to have women on equal ground with the men in the church.

Henning Müller [00:28:57] Definitely not the way church is being practiced.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:29:00] Yeah. So that would be my number one hope. And the other one, and the next one, I think would be even easier, really, is to just accept and embrace the LGBT members. I mean, the church wouldn't even need to go so far as to changing temple ceremonies or doctrine, but simply just make the church a less hostile place for the LGBT members and their families and just welcome them and include them as you would any other member. And I think that would make a huge difference in the mental health of many people and families who are struggling. And I think it could save lives, literally.

Henning Müller [00:29:41] I agree. But I guess that's what Mormon Stories is for, right? To create a place and a safe place for any kind of person, regardless of their sexual orientation, to have a safe place, an environment where they can find friends and build community and have discourse and open dialogue and be genuine and radically honest with themselves.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:30:03] It's so important. It's so important. It's so fascinating. I mean, you know, I'm involved with, you know, listening to podcasts and now, you know, seeing how Mormon stories will go forward in Europe. I'm in this because it's just. It's so much fun. I mean, it's so enriching. It's so. There's so many opportunities for growth and to meet so many wonderful, fascinating people.

Henning Müller [00:30:31] Yes. And this is super amazing that you're. That you're part of this, being all the way up there in Norway, and I'm sure you have some contacts there to the Swedish community as well. Do you know Hans Mattsson and have you been in contact with him and the people that were involved in the Swedish rescue back in the day?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:30:48] I sort of know them, like, just from the Facebook group. I'm in the Mormon Stories Sweden group. And because Norwegian and Swedish are so similar, I can read Swedish and, you know, I write in Norwegian, they write in Swedish, and it's not a problem. Okay, so are they really Dynamic, I guess there's not a whole lot going on. I would like to see more. I hope that we see more people coming out, you know, and wanting to share their stories. Sometimes you need to have other people share their stories before you'll want to share yours. That's the case with myself. I mean, I didn't think I'd be on Mormon stories talking about my life and, you know, some of my thoughts. But I've heard so many others do it now that I think, you know what, maybe my story is kind of interesting. Maybe it's worth sharing.

Henning Müller [00:31:39] It clearly is. The unique perspectives that you bring to the table are clearly enriching to Mormon stories, at least for what we're doing here in Europe, you know, and you've got such an open mind in the way you approach this community in which you want to see this go forward and participate in making this happen and shaping it to where it can be.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:31:57] I think so. Because, you know, you know, Europe. Okay. I'm like, I guess I have to say I'm a counterfeit European, to use a good Mormon term, not having grown up in Europe, but definitely I'm affected by the European culture that, that I've really had some very enriching years. You know, the past 13 years in Norway and living here has absolutely changed me in many ways and I've developed as a person and I've just learned so much. So I think that that perspective is worth sharing. Not just for the sake of us Europeans interacting with each other, but I think also about the American, North American audience that I hope that, you know, an American audience would think that we have some interesting perspectives to bring to the table and that we might have something that is worth hearing and something that they'd be interested in hearing.

Henning Müller [00:33:04] Yes. I have to agree, to be honest, this is a very unique perspective. And I think from the recent interviews that John de Linde has done with people from outside of the United States have really been enriching to the entire Morning Stories experience. I think. I guess what you're going to see is that Mormon stories Europe is not as dynamic perhaps as what is going on in the States, which, you know, is for obvious reasons. Right. I mean, there may be roughly 55,000 German speaking Mormons across the world, obviously focusing on Central Europe, but not only there's that many.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:33:38] I'm actually surprised.

Henning Müller [00:33:39] Yeah, roughly 50,000, perhaps 33 to 36,000 just in Germany alone. And then you obviously have other countries as well, Switzerland, Austria, and then people who have migrated. Right. Would be Interested. So that would add up to roughly 50 to 55,000. But then if you look at the UK and Ireland, I mean, that in itself could be very huge. So I'm amazed that not so much has come from UK and Ireland.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:34:06] I hope that we'll hear more from, from the UK and Ireland because, you know, they have an advantage language wise.

Henning Müller [00:34:12] They would. They're also a lot closer to the States.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:34:15] Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I do hope we'll hear from Scandinavia. You know, Norway only has about, I think there's about 3,000 Mormons. And of those who are active or, you know, who would even be interested in listening to Mormon stories, probably not very many. Yeah, same here. Yeah, a couple, probably a few more.

Henning Müller [00:34:40] But yeah, yeah, it's really hard to say, you know. So on any given episode we have roughly 1500 to 2000 downloads. Just about. And those would be German speaking ones. Right. So if you look at the, the international ones that we've done, for instance with Apostle Richard James of Community of Christ, there were some 25,000 downloads for, for every episode. So that's 10, 10 times that many.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:06] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:35:07] And that I reckon if Mormon Stories Europe scales to Europe, moves out of Scandinavia and Germany and becomes English speaking, you would get a stronger listenership there right away.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:21] Yeah, right.

Henning Müller [00:35:22] I would reckon the 25,000 per episode is something that we could definitely maintain if it increases in popularity, particularly due to the fact that we'll speak in English.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:35:32] Right, yeah. And I think that making that connection with the North American audience is important, you know, to exchange perspectives. And I think, you know, most Americans are going to be interested in Europe as, you know, a different continent with a rich history and, you know, diverse culture and language and, you know, for Mormon stories listeners, very rich intellectual tradition. And you know, this is the birthplace of the Enlightenment and secularism. And at the same time we're surrounded by some of the most spectacular religious monuments and cathedrals. And there's got to be something worth exploring here.

Henning Müller [00:36:21] And I know there is. And I know there is. You know, sometimes there are religious sciences dialogues and symposia that are happening here where that actually draw the attention of religious scientists and religious sociologists from all over the world. Like a recent symposium that happened in Erfurt and others, you know, that are quite interesting that also resonate with the Mormon audience. And if we are able to tap into that resource by some of the people who are close to Mormon performance stories that would participate in these or at least share in the dialogue around those symposia that would be absolutely fascinating. I've reached out particularly for the, for the preparation that we've done for the Sunstone Symposium that is going to happen in Birmingham next year or this year, I should say February 26th to 28th, we're going to be in Birmingham to participate in the Sunstone Symposium on the premises of Community of Christ branch there in Birmingham.

Henning Müller [00:37:15] So I'm really looking forward of meeting a number of people there and would be interesting to see what, you know, what resources are out there. I mean, who's out there, who has something to share that can greatly enhance the dialogue that we're just only building a platform of.

Henning Müller [00:37:30] So it's really awesome that you're joining in and participating in this, Claudia. It's really fascinating to have you on the mic here and interview you.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:37:39] It's fun. You know, I, I hope that, you know, my sharing my story will encourage other people to want to share their stories because, you know, sometimes we can feel intimidated. Like I'm, I'm not an expert in anything and I don't have the world's greatest education and, you know, I can, I feel intimidated about talking about some of these, you know, really heavy subjects and I hope I don't, you know, sound like a complete buffoon, but.

Henning Müller [00:38:16] No, I feel the same way. I totally know where you're coming from. I feel the same way. And I'm quite hesitant of going into an interview with a larger audience. Right. Particularly because of the fact that I'm not really an expert on many of the things, you know, even if you ask me to share and differentiated opinion about Mormonism in Europe, I, I'm not sure if I'm really well equipped to, to be able to answer any of those questions on the exact demographics of Mormonism and belief landscape. Right. You know, I'm not educated in the humanities, but I guess we're building a platform here and, and if it's a platform that people find useful, well, let them share in it. Let them share their testimonies, let them participate in bringing to the table what they've got. And we'd love to interview them.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:00] Right, sure. Like, don't be shy, don't be intimidated. You know, if you're listening to Mormon stories and you're finding it interesting and you've been enriched by it, you probably have an interesting story. So share it with us.

Henning Müller [00:39:16] Well, share your testimony, Claudia, towards the end of the podcast here. Is that something you would feel comfortable in doing?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:39:23] Sure. I mean, of course, my post Mormon testimony, if you want to call it that, or my final thoughts. Yeah, you know, I look back on the past because I'm almost a decade into this whole journey, you know, this whole transition from, I think about where I was 10 years ago, very, you know, true believing Mormon who really knew very little about Mormon history and very little about the world too, when I think about it, or anything outside of the Mormon bubble when it came to religion and culture. And I think when I look at the progress that I've made in terms of what I've learned, I feel like I've only begun to scratch the surface really.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:40:17] I mean, it's not like, you know, 10 years later I'm settled in this one spot and, you know, this is my home from now on. It's an ongoing journey. And I think it's fascinating. And you know, people have asked.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:40:35] I remember one time an extended family member asked me, I think I posted something on Facebook about to ordain women or something, and this family member kind of reacted angrily and said, you know, like, if you're not, you're not even LDS anymore, then why do you care? You know, and because that's the old saying, you know, like why, you know, you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:41:05] And my answer to that would be, why would I want to leave it alone? You know, this stuff is just so fascinating. There's so much to learn, so much to discuss, and I don't need to be a believer to engage in that or to find it worthwhile.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:41:28] And you know, the good news is that religion is man made. And the bad news is that religion is man made. Religion and religious practice is what we make it, you know, for better or for worse. And I do consider myself a secularist. I don't consider myself a believer, I don't consider myself a theist.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:42:02] I guess that would sort of make me an atheist. But I feel like I need to qualify that statement because to me, being atheist, I think most people tend to conflate that with being anti theist or just completely dismissing all possibilities of anything to do with a higher power. But to me, I feel like I'm atheist in the true sense of the word, that I have lost my faith. I don't have a faith in a God who is actively involved in something like finding my keys or helping me find lost things while other people are struggling through incredible hardships in life.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:42:57] This was something that, that I became more conscious of during my time working with the refugees. Maybe I could read an excerpt from a letter that I wrote to a friend really good friend of mine, very wise, very well read and very thoughtful.

Henning Müller [00:43:22] Yes, please do. Before you do, one question that I have on your statement of, you know, having compared Islam and Mormonism and your own position against that, would you have felt tempted at some point in time to consider or reconsider the theist option when investigating the Islamist viewpoint?

Staying Open to Belief and Looking Ahead

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:43:43] At this point, no, I don't feel like I've closed the doors on anything. I realized that you should never say never in life. I never thought that I would lose my faith in Mormonism. I never thought that I would classify myself as an atheist or if you want to, I guess, put a label on it, agnostically deistic atheist. You know, ultimately I'm agnostic because I, I don't believe we can know one way or the other.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:44:19] And I have deistic tendencies. I hold out, I'm open to the possibility of perhaps a higher power, of there having been some sort of power that may have created this universe that we live in that I don't think we have even been begun to understand. And I don't believe I will ever understand.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:44:47] And so because I, you know, classify myself as an atheist does not mean I have closed the door on absolutely everything. And I, who knows, you know, ask me in 10 years, maybe I'll be atheistic. And I, I don't know. But I guess, put it this way, the, the explanations for God that I have learned up until this point in my life have been unsatisfactory for me in order to raise the theist position.

Henning Müller [00:45:22] Okay, all right, so sorry, I didn't want to interrupt there, but I just wanted to sort of clarify that viewpoint because that was something that weighed on my mind whether your investigation of Islam sort of triggered an open mindedness in your own, in your own perception as well.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:45:42] Okay, so this is an excerpt from a letter I wrote to a friend when I was working with these refugees. I heard some amazing stories and I just became so much more aware of just how lucky I am to have been born where I was, when I was, especially as a, especially as a woman.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:46:05] And I just became much more aware of just how lucky I am. And I think about the reasons behind that because, you know, with Mormonism we often, you know, had these notions of there's a reason why we're born, where and when we are. And that sounds, that's really great when you're born in Canada, you know, in the 70s, but it means something different when you're born in Afghanistan in like 1995.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:46:43] And so I wrote this to A friend, I said. Some of the personal growth and deep emotional and spiritual connections I've made, not only with other human beings beings, but maybe even more so with myself, make me question the opposition in all things in Mormon theology.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:47:03] In some ways it really makes sense. If everything in life were great all the time, it would be difficult to achieve any spiritual depth or development. In other words, no pain, no gain. But I think about how my personal development, in a way, has come at the expense of others.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:47:20] Witnessing the pain and tragedies of others and being able to mourn with those who mourn has, I think, made me a better and more compassionate person in a way. I can say that I'm having the time of my life with the joy and fulfillment of meaningful interaction with other human beings, but when I think about it, it's horribly morbid.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:47:41] Intellectually, emotionally and spiritually, I'm profiting from their sorrows because they are allowing me to grow and are spurning me to change for the better. But what's in it for them is their mission in life simply to help me and others in my position reach new intellectual heights and achieve spiritual enlightenment. Enlightenment like performers in a play that I am privileged enough to sit back and observe.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:48:09] I think of all the short, tormented, wasted lives of those in the third World or. Or those whose bodies and spirits were crushed by their oppressors, or even all the many prisoners of the road who will wander aimlessly from one place to another while the days of their lives disappear one by one.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:48:30] Many Mormons at one time, myself included, would say that such people were probably so righteous and humble in the pre existence that all they needed was to get a body. But after I met some of these refugees, I have thought more about this and I'm sure that there are many others in this world who did not manage to escape their oppressors, whose stories and potential have been snuffed out by those whose free agency just happened to be more powerful than their free agency never to be heard or seen by those who could have benefited from their talents and efforts to reduce their. The purpose of their existence on this earth to something as simple as getting a physical body and letting it die to be saved in the afterlife suddenly seems so absurd.

Henning Müller [00:49:23] Thank you so much for sharing this. This is very powerful.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:49:27] Yeah, and things are so much different when you're confronted with them in person. Because I had read a lot, I was very conscious of, you know, the, you know, with my own mother, coming from a third world country, from poverty and having been to Mexico myself and I was aware, but it became so much more intense, so much more difficult to accept when these people, when I was sitting across from them and when, you know, they were letting me share in their lives and telling me their stories. That was very powerful.

Henning Müller [00:50:14] Yeah. No easy answers here, right?

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:50:18] No. And I've been very lucky because, you know, I really have more of appreciation now for my. My mixed cultural background. I think it's made me what I am. You know, I'm. I Sometimes I feel very European. Sometimes I feel very, you know, Mexican. And I'm proud of my heritage, of all of it, you know, the good and the bad. And I have to say, I've also been very fortunate with my family. My family, especially my parents, are the best. You know, this whole faith transition thing is excruciating at best. And I've been lucky because I've been supported all the way, and the casualties in terms of my family or friends and relationships has been. Been very, very minimal. And I know that others are not. Are not so lucky. Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:51:24] Well, thank you. Thank you, Claudia, for sharing this and rounding this up with your insight. I super appreciate it. So thanks a lot for. For having taken the time and we spoke roughly four hours. Right.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:35] On a. I'm sure we could have spoken for four more.

Henning Müller [00:51:38] Yeah, we probably would have because we didn't even dig into much of that. Right. But there'll be more time anyways.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:44] Absolutely. Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:51:45] It's fantastic.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:46] Yeah.

Henning Müller [00:51:47] Okay.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:48] Thanks for having me hunting, and maybe next time I'll put you in the hot seat.

Henning Müller [00:51:51] Absolutely. Let's do this.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:53] Yes. I'm up for it. Okay.

Closing Reflections on Mormon Stories Europe

Henning Müller [00:51:55] All right, Cheers.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:51:56] All right. I'll be this in Be still my soul. The Lord is on my side.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:52:09] Thank you for listening. The music for this podcast episode comes

Henning Müller [00:52:13] from the Lower Lights.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:52:14] You can visit their website@thelowerlights.com the logo has been donated by studiocase.com I'm wishing you all the very best. Until next time here at Mormon Stories Germany.

Claudia Fox Reppen [00:52:28] In every change, he faithful will remain.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.