Introducing the Panel and the Hoax

Sarah Newcomb [00:00:15] Hi, this is Sarah Newcomb. I am hosting Mormon News Podcast, a project of Mormon stories. I am joined today with Darren Smith, Juliana Viegas. Sean Carter is going to be joining us and also John Dehlin. We've asked him to be a part of this.

Sarah Newcomb [00:00:33] We are going to be discussing the Jonathan Streeter hoax apology. He set up a website to look like a professional Mormon newsroom and did an apology about racism that was meant to look as if the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints had apologized for racism. Again, it was a hoax and it affected a lot of people. So we're here to discuss that a little bit about me. I did an interview on Mormon Stories last year and I also run the lamanitetruth.com website.

Sarah Newcomb [00:01:08] We'll also talk to Juliana and Darren, if you want to say a few things about yourself before we get going, that would be great. Introduce yourselves, Juliana.

Julienna Viegas [00:01:17] All right, so I'm Juliana Vieguez. I have done a Mormon Stories a few years ago, 2015, I believe I am here to share some views about what happened. As a black woman, I want to give a disclaimer that I'm not African American. I am a woman of color. I do not pretend to fully understand or actually even understand. You have walked in the shoes of African Americans. So I can only speak for myself with my global view of the world. And I think it's important, as you hear what I have to say, that you know a little bit of my background.

Sarah Newcomb [00:02:04] And you also did a Mormon Stories podcast, right?

Julienna Viegas [00:02:08] I did. And I wrote, wrote several op EDS in the Salt Lake Tribune. If you type my name, you'll may encounter some of them.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Wonderful.

Sarah Newcomb [00:02:18] And then, Darren, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Darron Smith [00:02:21] Well, my name is Darren Smith and I'm Satan. I'm the guy who read, who read Streeter's Apology, thought it was genius and posted it. And for that, I'm the most hated man on the Internet now. And so in addition to being the most hated man on the Internet, I'm also a professor. I teach in sociology at the University of Memphis. I've written several books about Mormonism. I've been on John. In fact, I have one of the distinctions of being one of John's first, very first guest on Mormon Podcast stories. I'm very proud of that. John and I had a very lovely conversation many years ago about the church and so on.

Darron Smith [00:02:56] So I've been on John's show many, many times and I support what he does. And so I'm here to give my account of what happened so that people will leave me to hell alone and recognize what it is I tried to do. I've been trying to do an apology for the church for years, so this is nothing new for me. But apparently for other people, primarily black Mormons, it was a big deal. So my comments are going to be directed mainly toward the black folks who see me as Satan has called me, you know, called me Satan and some other choice words. So I want to make sure that I get that out today and hopefully set the record straight.

Darron Smith [00:03:37] But also I want to be sensitive to the fact that a lot of black people were hurt by that hurt by the apology. So I do want to acknowledge the fact that some pain was felt by that. But it was, you know, but it was completely, you know, unintentional for blacks to feel that way. And there's a distinction between active black Mormons who felt one way and non active black Mormons who felt another way. I think we'll talk about that too.

Sarah Newcomb [00:04:00] Yeah, I think that's actually a great place to start because a lot of the people in the active community have genuine feelings of trauma and pain that they've experienced through the racism, and they still want to hold on to their faith. And so understanding their experience, I think would be a great place to start. And then we'll move on to what it's like being on the outside and what people want to do to help and people trying to make change and how to handle that anger and supporting both sides, I think are really important. Juliana, do you have any thoughts on what it's like for the faithful believing members in terms of reading a fake apology that they've wanted for so long and feeling that pain afterwards? Do you have any thoughts about that?

Reacting to the Fake Apology Letter

Julienna Viegas [00:04:49] Well, I want to start with the reaction I had when I came across the fake apology. So it was accidental. I was on a text group where one of my friends posted it. And so I read it, I saw it, and for the first few minutes I actually thought it was real and I was happy about it. I'm like, wow, this is incredible. Finally, now people have to know and understand that I have not been active for a few years now, so I wasn't emotionally as invested.

Julienna Viegas [00:05:31] But did I believe it for a minute and thought it was great? Absolutely. Then I read the comments and it was a hoax. So I'm like, okay, not surprised that it's not real. Moving on. So I did not have an outburst or I wasn't shattered.

Julienna Viegas [00:05:49] Now, had I been still in the church, Had I read this three, four years ago, my reaction would have been the exact same as, you know, I'm gonna call them my sisters who are, you know, blackening the church. I would have been devastated. I would have had the same reaction because it's something that I was hoping from the leaders. It's something that I want to see happen or would have at the time or up two, three years ago. So, yes, I can say honestly that I understand the reason why they felt the way they do.

Sarah Newcomb [00:06:29] Yeah, I went. I spent quite a bit of time reading comments of people after they had read it and thought it was real. One gal that was just in tears, crying, just overwhelmed. She laid in her bed just with emotions of finally receiving an apology that she had wished for and then finding out it was a hoax. Being so traumatized by having it not be real. Has anybody else gone through and read a lot of the comments and reactions that people have shared? John, have you seen any of the comments of pain that people expressed?

John Dehlin [00:07:08] Yeah, and I'm very happy to take a backseat role in this conversation. But yeah, I think people just feel like they were re traumatized that it's hard enough to be a person of color in this world, in the United States, in the church. And now they're trying to. Now they have to not only struggle with that and trying to keep their faith together as they're in a church that still maybe has some work to do or a lot of work to do, but then also their emotions are being toyed with as they go through the jubilation of getting, in many ways the apology they always wanted and then finding out that it was a total fake. It's just devastating.

Sarah Newcomb [00:07:59] Well, an apology that they always wanted just shows how much pain that they've experienced already through the racist history. So, Erin, you had, you had a completely different experience because you've been involved. I'd love to hear about it.

Darron Smith [00:08:18] You know, Jonathan, Jonathan reached out to me a couple of days ago and said, hey, Darren, I've got this, this fake apology I'm going to do in anticipation of the NAACP meeting with the church. Would you take a look at it for me? Would you read it for me and tell me what you think? What are your thoughts?

Darron Smith [00:08:38] I read it. Blown away. Blown away. If the Brethren were to write an apology letter, it would sound something like what Jonathan wrote. I mean, it was pretty, pretty, pretty powerful. So I said to him, I like it. He said, I'm gonna post it. I don't know if the church is going to issue an apology with the naacp. But if they do, then the joke, then the hoax is. Is not a hoax. If they don't, then it's a hoax.

Darron Smith [00:09:07] So. And I said, fine, I'll go along with it. So about maybe, maybe, maybe 10 or 15 minutes later, Jonathan sent me a link. It was quick, boom, it was there. So. And then I started to post it around. And I also sort of played into it as if it were real.

Darron Smith [00:09:26] And that's probably where people are upset with me because I played into it knowing that it wasn't real, but played into it. And so a lot of people feel like I betrayed them or I hurt them or whatever as a result of that, which I have offered an apology for that, for my particular role in that.

Darron Smith [00:09:45] But in terms of the idea itself, I said it then and I'll say it now, I think it's brilliant. I thought it was a brilliant idea. And people have castigated Jonathan for his role in it. And of course, they've called me all kind of things, like I told you before, Satan and everything like that. So I have been trying to get the church unsuccessfully to issue an apology for a long, long time. And the reason for that is because the church teaches reconciliation, right? You commit a sin, and then your responsibility is to. Is to do right or make that sin better or to your, I guess, restitution to, you know, to engage in activities that would facilitate restitution. So the church.

Sarah Newcomb [00:10:37] Well, the church does teach that, but they also.

Julienna Viegas [00:10:41] But they don't practice with those, Sarah.

Darron Smith [00:10:43] They don't practice.

Sarah Newcomb [00:10:43] They've made statements that they won't make an apology. They don't apologies from others. And I'm just saying what they say.

Darron Smith [00:10:51] Okay? So what that tells me and what that should tell the listeners. Churches aren't democracies. They're not democracies. They're oligarchies. And they're ran by people who have a particular way of seeing Christ and a particular way of dispensing Christ to the larger masses. So if you go to.

Sarah Newcomb [00:11:11] I'll pause you just for.

Darron Smith [00:11:12] Well, I'm sorry I said last point, and I'll be quiet if you. Truth and reconciliation from the pulpit on any given Sunday, if you're teaching it, you ought to be acting. You ought to be setting the example for that. And the church has yet to set an example. And to say that we don't apologize, for me, is hugely problematic. Hugely problematic. I wasn't. Well, I didn't have the same emotional reaction to it because I knew. I knew what was going on with it. But had I not known what was going on, I probably would have been overjoyed and overwhelmed about it too, you know, so I can see where people were hurt, where people, people's feelings were hurt and so on. But don't messenger, don't shoot the messenger, shoot the church. It's the church that did it, not me.

Sarah Newcomb [00:12:00] Yeah, I have, I have a few different viewpoints on things, I suppose. But first, I'd love to invite any listeners to post questions. This is a super sensitive subject and there's so many different points of views to this. Just to say what the church said, that they don't make apologies. They also say they don't accept, like expect apologies from others. And I agree, I agree when it comes to making amends that personally I feel that apologies are necessary. However, forcing someone to apologize is rarely a real apology.

Darron Smith [00:12:41] How you gonna claim to be the true church? How you gonna claim to be the true church, Sarah? How you gonna claim to be the true church if the first thing that comes out your mouth is, oh, we don't apologize?

Sarah Newcomb [00:12:51] So let me ask you this, let me ask you this. The fake hoax apology, what races did it apologize to? What races did it address?

Darron Smith [00:13:06] It was meant for African Americans, I'm sure. People of color, people of African descent. Sure.

Sarah Newcomb [00:13:11] That's what it specifically addressed. Race in the priesthood. What races have been hurt by the church?

Darron Smith [00:13:18] Native Americans, people of African descent, lgtbq.

Sarah Newcomb [00:13:25] Specifically races. If you read history, pretty much all races have been thrown under the bus at one time or another. So in some ways, street or mistake, great opportunity to include all races. And I think he, by addressing just one race that he didn't understand their experience As a black Mormon, I think he missed some of the pain that may have happened since then because he didn't fully understand what it's like for a truly faithful, believing member to experience that racism. I don't think he meant to hurt anyone. I definitely, I can see the ignorance and reading his apology that he did replace the initial news with. I can see that he learned a lot from it. I mean it took him four days to apologize, but he did apologize within that four day time frame.

Julienna Viegas [00:14:20] If I may interject.

Sarah Newcomb [00:14:21] Yes.

Julienna Viegas [00:14:22] If you don't mind. Like, I think this, this fake apology letter was specifically in regard to the 1978, you know, ban. So. Yes, yes, it affects anyone that's non white, but particularly the black people.

Sarah Newcomb [00:14:40] Yeah, I agree. News hoax was definitely if, you know,

Julienna Viegas [00:14:45] other races were, you know, dismissed or not taken into consideration. This is it goes with the ban itself already, which is also very black people focused. So not to say that, you know, it should include everyone. Not.

Sarah Newcomb [00:15:03] No, I'm saying what he did was he focused specifically on blacks in the priesthood. That's what the hoax apology was so understanding that he knows nothing about what it's like to. He didn't understand the people he was apologizing to because he has a Mexican descent. He spoke in. In his video apology about being of Lamanite descent and having a different experience in the church. However, his apology was specifically a hoax for the race and the priesthood and the black community. And that's something he does not understand what it was like. And I think through this experience, he genuinely had greater understanding by the time he gave an apology of the pain he caused because there was genuine pain in the black community with the believers of what you know, when you've experienced certain traumas in life, you can have ptsd, you can have all these traumatic triggers, and when you have something that you've hoped for for so long be fake, it can cause that genuine trigger, those genuine emotions of all these, not just one thing that they've experienced hundreds of things and years of things.

Sarah Newcomb [00:16:21] And that's something I don't think he understood and something I think that genuinely they have a valid reason to be hurt by, by the fake apology. That's not saying that. I don't think that it's not needed. I think an apology is needed. And I'm not against him wanting to fight for what he believes in, because everybody has a right to stand for what they believe in. And this is obviously something he's passionate about, and that's something you're passionate about, Darren, or else you wouldn't be doing it. So I would love to hear what other things can be done going forward to fight for that.

Discussing the Hoax's Intent and Impact

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Can I ask a question of both Darren and Juliana?

Sarah Newcomb [00:17:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] So one of the things that I felt most bad about, and again, I'm. I wasn't planning on being on this episode and you guys asked me to, and I'm grateful, but again, I just want to take it back seat. But one of the things that I felt most bad about was that Jonathan shared it with me maybe an hour or two before he was going to release it and told me it was going to be a hoax. And I didn't even read it because I was super busy. And I didn't even promote it for the first couple hours until a person of color shared it and gave a commentary.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] And then I forwarded a Person of color's commentary. But I didn't even feel like it was my place to comment on it. But what I felt really bad about was that I didn't immediately sort of like it didn't trigger my mind. Oh, Jonathan's doing a fake apology. It's gonna hurt a bunch of people. And I think it's because I don't have any idea what it's like to be a believing Mormon of color. But, Darren and Juliana, I want to hear your view, too.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] What kept you guys? Well, Juliana, sounds like you were. You did believe it and then realized it was a hoax. But Darren first, then Juliana. Darren, why didn't you immediately go, this is going to hurt too many people, Jonathan. Don't do it?

Darron Smith [00:18:19] That's a great question, John. I was thinking about the larger institutional benefits that this might have, and I wasn't thinking about how it would impact the individual. I was looking at this more of a structural issue of how it might maybe force the church to take a cold, hard look at why it needs an apology. That was the last thing on my mind. And also I was thinking to myself, too, is that the black community and the church has been through a lot of microaggressions, a lot of traumas, as you mentioned before, Sarah, a lot of multiple traumas. And so I wasn't looking at this as a potential traumatic event for black people.

Darron Smith [00:18:55] And so that's probably where I. Probably where I was wrong. But initially, I wasn't thinking about how it would impact the individual. I was thinking about how it might force the church, twist the church's arm, to finally come out and say, you know what? We screwed up. We apologize. And that's the honest truth. So after a few days and after seeing all the consternation over, you know, and all of the, you did this, and you, why did you do this? And I'm hurt and all that, then I started to think, well, maybe this wasn't. Maybe this wasn't a great idea. And that's kind of how it came about.

Sarah Newcomb [00:19:27] I wonder if there are steps we can make to still, like, help heal the black community, whether they're still active members or whether they've left the church. One thing that I would love to see is solidarity, regardless of race, regardless of gender, regardless of preference, regardless of nationality.

Sarah Newcomb [00:19:50] Solidarity. And I think a lot of people want to help change the world. I think a lot of people want to help change the pains that people have experienced. You know, I've seen a lot of that support in the LGBT community, but I Think a lot of people don't know what to do. So I'd love to know, Darren. Juliana, you know, what are things that people that aren't in that.

Sarah Newcomb [00:20:17] That experience, what are things that they can do to help change? Because no matter what, somebody's going to do something wrong, you know, whether they're a believer or they're a non believer, someone's going to mess up somewhere along the line, and that's all right, you know, human nature. We're not going to be perfect. But what are things that we can do to help heal the community with or without an apology? Because waiting for the church to apologize, I. It's not something I personally would want to focus on, but wanting to help heal both members and people that have left. That's where the real change is going to happen. Not at the top, but with people like you.

Darron Smith [00:20:58] What was up the question, Sarah?

Julienna Viegas [00:21:01] I think we have two.

Darron Smith [00:21:02] Maybe go back to Juliana's. I want to hear Juliana's response to what John said earlier.

Julienna Viegas [00:21:06] Yes. Let's take one question at a time. So if I'm understanding right, John, you wanted to know why wasn't my reaction as strong as the people of the Carl inside of the church?

John Dehlin [00:21:20] Well, yeah, I mean, I guess there's this. There's a lot of people. I think Darren captured part of this. I think a lot of the people that were excited about it or liked it, I think most of these people probably don't believe in the church anymore, and they were trying to either stick it to the church or find some way to kind of, you know, motivate the church to embarrass the church or motivate the church to try and change in some way. And so they weren't seeing black people of, you know, faithful people of color as people that would be hurt because they weren't thinking of them at all. They were thinking about how do I stick it to the church or make the church change. And so, yeah, how do you see. How was your reaction? And did you immediately see that this was going to be hurtful to a group of people?

Julienna Viegas [00:22:12] Okay, so like I said at the beginning, because I have not been active in the church for a few years now, I am not as emotionally invested. And so when I read it, I was happy. I fell for it. I was happy and then saw that it wasn't true and kind of shrugged and said, well, what else should I expect? And moved on. Now, I wasn't aware of the hoax before it happened.

Julienna Viegas [00:22:41] Jonathan Streeter reached out to me a couple of Days ago to kind of, you know, see, I think he really tried to reach out, which he should have done before. And he recognized that. Now where. What I understand he understands now is that he should have reached out to, for example, Sisters in Zion or these people, kind of warn the community about what was going to happen before going ahead and doing it. Or I think it was very well written, obviously very believable, because most people who read it without knowing it was a hoax believed it was true.

Julienna Viegas [00:23:21] Looking, with hindsight, it would have been actually nice if it weren't a hoax and if he had just said, this is what I wish the church would say or do and present it as such rather than a hoax. Now, I think that with hindsight, he realizes that with hindsight, warning the community that would be impacted should have been done. Now, do I believe that he's a racist who has no feelings and couldn't care less and will use any means to try to reach the, you know, the leaders? No, I don't. And I saw this for what it was the moment I saw it, because I am able to take a, you know, take a step, take a step backward and look at it for what it is, the desire of change.

Julienna Viegas [00:24:13] Now, the way he went about it, yes, a bit insensitive, but. Or a lot, if you want to call it so, but not intentional. And that's where I have a problem, is where. So I wasn't wanting to be a part of that conversation. I just looked at what the reactions were. I did spend hours listening to both Cisterns and Dion and Lashawn express that I felt. I felt with them, I was able to put myself in their shoes in the sense that if this had happened three years ago, four years ago, I would have felt the exact same way. I would have been devastated. I would have been crushed because of the stand back that I've been able to do.

Julienna Viegas [00:24:59] I don't feel that same way, but I feel for them. And I understand the despair because I've been there. Like I have been there. I was raised in the church. I grew up in the church. I spent decades in the church. I've done everything in the church. The church used to be my family. Now I understand what it's like to be heard from the inside.

Julienna Viegas [00:25:21] Now, the fact that people are so quick to. Certain people are so quick to call name, to call Jonathan a racist, a white supremacist who takes advantage of the black people to get to what he wants, I think that is going too far. Or calling anyone who thinks that the piece was well written, that they are racist and white supremacist and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like that, to me, is a bit much.

Sarah Newcomb [00:25:55] Yeah. And I think he could have avoided that, like you said, if he would have reached out first, which, yeah, he does know now, but that was very insightful of you. I agree with that.

Julienna Viegas [00:26:05] It was a mistake, but can we take it as such? And, yes, he hurt a lot of people, but, I mean, are you. You know, I'm not in the church. I'm a spiritual person who lives my spirituality how I see it fit. But as a Christian person, believer in the church, shouldn't you try to ask why before pummeling someone, even if what they've done is wrong? Like, what about, you know, understanding that,

Sarah Newcomb [00:26:34] yeah, where he's coming from, legal action,

Julienna Viegas [00:26:36] I hear about white supremacists and racist and this and that, and he's using us as a. As a community to get to what he wants. What about asking him why and listening to the why? Listen to the why. Whether the. Whether you agree or disagree.

Julienna Viegas [00:26:54] Try to understand where that comes from. Because it doesn't come from. He's a racist. And he just wants to, you know, I know it because I've spoken to him. I didn't know him before this happened. And I saw other people online trying to say, hey, I understand that this is very traumatic, but nobody was killed and there wasn't a rape. And this. And not to say again. I get that people shouldn't tell the black community how they should or shouldn't react, what they should or shouldn't say, fine. But can we take a step back and have a little perspective on this instead of like, fist and insult and, you know, where does that take anyone?

Darron Smith [00:27:42] Let me. Let me interject the thought. Ladies, you don't mind real quick, in Jonathan's defense, when I spoke to Jonathan about this a couple of days ago, he asked me if I could reach out to several people. Julienna, you were one of them. He asked me to reach out to.

Darron Smith [00:27:56] And I also took it upon myself to reach out to Sisters in Zion and also Janan. He wanted me to reach out to Jenan. I forgot Jenan's last name. And I reached out to them, but no one answered. No one answered their phones. I sent messages to him letting them know what was coming down the road, but no one answered. No one answered my responses. And so when it came out, of course, they were livid, livid by it. And so I let them know, listen, I tried to reach out to you Two or you three. You three folks before it went out, you know, it was Dwayne, it was Sisters in Zion, mainly Zandra.

Darron Smith [00:28:30] Zandra reached out to Zandra and I reached out to Julianne. Not Julienna, I'm sorry, Julianne. But I reached out to Junon, Zandra and Dwayne. None of them answered their phone. None of them answered their, their, their messaging. So. And then I didn't know when. I didn't know when Jonathan was going to release it, so he just released it. And so there you have it. So. But I let those.

Listener Questions and Why Jonathan Is Absent

Sarah Newcomb [00:28:53] Let's do a couple of listener questions. One person asked why we didn't have Jonathan on the panel today. And that was because we wanted to talk more about. He wasn't invited, actually. We wanted to talk about reactions and get more information from that perspective, what the reactions were. And we also reached out to Sisters in Zion and didn't hear anything back from them. So they were invited. Also we attempted to contact them.

Sarah Newcomb [00:29:26] We have another listener that says you don't have to be a member of a group if you. In order to attempt to send goodness, transparency or well being toward that group. In essence, what Jonathan Streeter did is what is like what Ryan McKnight and Julian Assange did.

Sarah Newcomb [00:29:43] They use subterfuge and moral questionably tactics to make the world a better place. That was a great, great comment from that listener. What are things moving forward, do you think that we can do? Or with people that aren't part of that group, what are things that they can do to be a part of helping that community move forward? Anybody have any ideas on that?

Julienna Viegas [00:30:14] I think it's important for the black community to give a little space because right now, maybe not from everyone, but from what I've heard, and I know it's very emotional and not everyone wants to talk or say how they feel or whatnot. But I want to read like one of the.

Julienna Viegas [00:30:35] One of the comments that someone who. That to me expresses the feelings of people on the outside or inside who are white and don't really know what to say, what to do because if they say something it's, you know, if they say, you know, we're with you, you're fake and you're racist anyways. If we don't do anything, then you're just a bystander standard. So this is. I'm not going to say names, but this is what one of the comments I took says. And I think it expresses a lot of people's feelings. He says, I grew up in a different Time. I certainly respect any person who is in a minority who is too pained to be able to help those in the majority to understand their pain.

Julienna Viegas [00:31:20] It certainly takes strength and courage that perhaps that person can't muster when being asked. I think what he said is that if someone wants to take the time to explain, even perhaps we can ask those questions. That said, let's see here gives me greater admiration for those like Martin Luther King that took the time to help the majority understand the pain and indignity the minority was feeling when he himself must have been feeling great pain. I can't imagine where civil rights would be without courageous, strong members of the minority that are willing to reach out and help those that don't understand get a greater understanding.

Julienna Viegas [00:32:04] He says I mostly commented because I'm sure I would have made the same mistake which he talked specifically about. I think it was Lindsay Hansen park trying to understand right in the heat of things, you know, I think she asked a question. I don't even know the backstory. But she also got pummeled because she asked a question at the wrong time while someone was in pain. And that was wrong of her to do. She apologized and all that. But this is kind of what he's trying to say here.

Julienna Viegas [00:32:28] He said, I mostly commented because I'm sure I would have made the same mistake. If someone does a podcast and shares live their thoughts and I can type in a heart, I cannot type in a heart or comment, I probably would make the assumption then they are open to a question. This would seem to discourage dialogue. If we should go into someone's podcast assuming they don't want to take questions and that they might be offended if I ask something. But this does seem to be a common attitude now. And on that specific thread, I mean, the feeling was, you know, don't ask us questions. We're suffering, you know, if we want to give you comments and whatnot, like, let it be on our time.

Julienna Viegas [00:33:07] I mean, it was very suffocating. The kind of narrow hall pathway that people had of white people had to try to understand what happened and what they can do to help. And so at some point, yeah, I mean, I think it's important to open that door of that way of communication and to not jump into conclusion and to step back and to, you know, whatever emotional turmoil is there, you deal with that fun. But to start calling people racist and white supremacist because they say, hey, you know, this may be a little bit too much to take it as if, you know, I don't know, like,

Sarah Newcomb [00:33:59] it

Julienna Viegas [00:33:59] felt very suffocating to be on some of those. To read some of those threads and see that people had. Non black people had like no space at all to even ask a question.

Sarah Newcomb [00:34:12] Yeah, and that's just another example of how much pain people are in and how reactive that we can be when we're in pain, regardless of what race we are. There is that reaction to you don't understand and not wanting other people to contribute. However, on the flip side, there's so much beauty in how much solidarity people are attempting to give.

Sarah Newcomb [00:34:36] So that, that right there, that alone gives me hope. Regardless of how people react, I don't expect the black community to. Not the active members that have reacted in ways that aren't perfect. You know, that's all right. They're going to react that way, especially right when something painful like that happens. However, I still have hope with moving forward because of how much solidarity and attempts have been made and will continue to be made to defend people and to make change.

Sarah Newcomb [00:35:13] I'm kind of interested by what, Darren, what you've experienced because you got it pretty bad when it came to reactions and you've talked a little bit about it, but not so much sharing it with our viewers if you want to talk about that, because that, that right there shows a different side of things going on.

Darron Smith [00:35:33] Well, I got lambasted before, before I got cut off. I was going to. I was saying something about. I was going to respond to the question as to why Jonathan didn't join us. It's obvious. Jonathan told me he doesn't. He's going to go underground for a while because he feels that, you know, much like me, him. So he decided, he decided that, you know, maybe he'll let it calm down before he gets on and tries to. And tries to really engage people. But in terms of terms of me, you know, I'll be honest with you. I was, I was, I was pissed that black folks came at me.

Darron Smith [00:36:06] Like I was. Like I was Lucifer. It really pissed me off. You know, it's like, you know, shoot the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm not the one who actually drafted the doggone thing. And yet, and yet I'm the one that's being blasted for it. It's always the same old people doing it. It's always Sisters in Zion.

Darron Smith [00:36:24] It's always them. It's always a handful of Negroes that always coming after me over some stupidity. You ought to be mad that the church still engages in racism while you jumping on my case like it's My fault? You belong to a church that is absolutely racist in every fucking way, okay? In every way. And then you're sitting here blaming me, the messenger, for posting the thing. I mean, what the hell is that?

Sarah Newcomb [00:36:55] I don't think. I personally don't think it's because they. They're aware of what they experience. They know the church they belong to, and they still have faith in certain parts of it. I think what hurt the most was they had something that they desperately needed, that they wanted to be able to heal, and it turned out not to be true.

Darron Smith [00:37:15] Then go to the. Sarah, go to the institution. Then don't blame the messenger. Go to the institution. It's the institution that's doing it. It ain't Dan Smith. The person. The person you want to talk. Listen, black folks, if you're hearing me on this, get off my damn case. That's one particularly. Particularly black folks who are active. If you want to have change in the church, go to Todd Christofferson. He's the best person to do this. Todd Christofferson. He's the most sensitive to it. And I think. And I think he would be the most. He would be the best ally for active members to go and talk to. But don't blame me. And certainly if you want to talk to me about it, fine. But if you come at me with vitriol, I'm not going to sit there and take it.

Sarah Newcomb [00:38:05] You definitely shouldn't. Oh, go ahead, John.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] Darren and Juliana. So I'm just curious, and Sarah, how do we talk about matters of race? And I think that Darren and Juliana, I think both of you caught some heat on this, and instead of, you know, it's okay to be frustrated, obviously, with how the conversations happen, but how do we, you know, why do you guys imagine it would be great for the sisters to have come on, to be able to represent themselves, but since they. We weren't able to.

Race, Racism, and the LDS Church

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Since they weren't able to come or didn't want to come, all we can do is try our best to represent what we understand from them and to try and understand the best we can. So when you, Darren, or when you, Juliana, or when a bunch of, frankly, white people tried to say things like, the church is hurting people. It's the church you should be mad at.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] It's just satire. That was really hurtful and really angering. Can we talk about why? Can any of you take turns at expressing, number one, why the discourse, why the responses were perceived as hurtful to the believing people of color, and secondly, Why the discourse got so ugly. And what are better ways for all of us to respond when these types of things happen? Julian, you start, then you Daren, then you Sarah, if that's okay.

Darron Smith [00:39:47] Yes.

Julienna Viegas [00:39:48] I think it's just like anything with having your ground shaken. Not everyone is ready to hear it, you know, at the same time. And some people, I mean, when I listen to the Sisters in Zion, they are pretty much saying what I said at the end of the first podcast I did with you, John. I was at that point, I was in the church. I'm still officially, but I haven't gone. But.

Julienna Viegas [00:40:23] And I don't consider myself one, but officially I still am. But they are at that point where you have lived so much goodness inside of the church. Like, my experience within the church was never a bad one. Like, I get a lot of heat for even saying that. I have personally, and this is just me growing up in Belgium and just, you know, going to be like, I have not lived racism in the church. Now, does that mean that it doesn't exist? No, it doesn't. But I have not lived racism in the church. I have not lived sexism in the church. Does that mean it doesn't exist?

Julienna Viegas [00:40:59] Yes. No, it doesn't. Like, I have friends who have witnessed enduring all these things. Now, the way I left the church was. It was difficult because I didn't have any. It was conviction. It was not believing anymore in so many things, and it was opening my eyes to certain things.

Julienna Viegas [00:41:22] Now what I see when I listen to the Sisters in Zion is that they are living in that cognitive dissonance space that is very uncomfortable. And they are holding on to all the good which is true and exists in the church. There is a lot of goodness and there is a lot of truth that are universal truth that exists in the church. But there is a lot of cognitive dissonance and things that you can, as a. As a, I don't know, feminist, LGBTQ black person, you will never come to terms with it. Like, you. You will not. Like, you can pretend it's not there. You can, you know, which I've done for decades, for decades, I ignored all these problems.

Julienna Viegas [00:42:09] When it surface for real and you start looking at it, you have a choice to make. And you can live with the pain and the cognitive dissonance. It will never be comfortable.

Darron Smith [00:42:23] Or you can do what Julianne, or

Julienna Viegas [00:42:26] you can come to turn to your own truth, which is different for everyone. I'm not saying follow me again. And I say that at the end of the podcast I've done with you John, I'm telling to no one to follow me. What I'm telling to people is to follow your own truth, your own heart and your own conscience, and listen to no one but to God and to your heart, and you will know where to go. And if it hurts and it continues to hurt, and there is no balm in Gilead, you may be in the wrong place. Now, that's for you to decide. I am not telling you you're in the wrong place.

Julienna Viegas [00:43:02] It's for you to decide. If you feel you're in the right place, then good for you. I wish people happiness. I have tons of friends in the church and I love them. And someone was like, oh, I hope you take care of your pain and your hurt. Because whatever, I don't know. I was telling her to not call someone a white supremacist and a racist. She's like, oh, I hope you take care of your pain. I'm like, I'm at peace. Where I'm at today, I am absolutely at peace. I am not on this side. On that side, I speak my own truth.

Julienna Viegas [00:43:32] I am not trying to please one or the other. I am not a worshiper of John Dillon like someone have told me, or trying to please the white man. That is absolutely ridiculous. I was explaining to someone that I have lived on three continents and America is the only place where I'm reminded every single day what color is my skin? As if I don't know. This is the only place. I've lived in Asia, I've lived in Europe. I've lived all over the world. This is the only place where I have to think about my skin color every single day.

Sarah Newcomb [00:44:07] And that says something about the culture that we have here.

Julienna Viegas [00:44:09] Yes.

Sarah Newcomb [00:44:10] That plays a big part into an American made church.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] Yes.

Julienna Viegas [00:44:14] So thank you, John. You were asking, how can we open the door, take a step back, ask people why and where they're coming from and why they think that way, whether you agree or disagree with them, as long as they're not directly insulting you or, you know, bullying you, that should have no place. In no groups, if someone disagrees with you, ask them why and where they're coming from. And from there, can progress be made? Yeah.

Sarah Newcomb [00:44:52] Thank you, Juliana.

Julienna Viegas [00:44:53] That's amazing.

Darron Smith [00:44:54] I appreciate that.

Sarah Newcomb [00:44:57] Darren, real quick, before you answer the same question, we have a listener that wrote, his name's Christian. He wrote, darren, you expressed my feeling through all of this. Jonathan may have lacked tact and sensitivity, but what he did wasn't racist. The church as an institution was and is racist. If someone's race precludes their ability to talk about racism, is that not racist? So that was addressed to you, Darren. Go ahead.

Darron Smith [00:45:27] Well, no, Christian, I think that's. I mean, your question is off the chain. I agree. I mean, I don't believe what Jonathan did is racist at all. At all. I really don't. I mean, I think that Jonathan, in his own way, was trying to further a much needed conversation.

Darron Smith [00:45:45] Maybe he didn't think about the ramifications of it. Neither did I, you know, and several other people didn't. But I think it's. I think his actions were. His intentions were good. So, in fact, let me just clear up the air with the racism stuff, okay? Okay. I believe all people are racist. Okay? I believe all people are racist. And let me tell you why I believe that. I believe white people are racist not because they walk around calling people niggers, but I believe they're racist because they have white privilege and they wield white privilege and they don't know they have white privilege. Privilege gives, and white privilege is germane in a racist society.

Darron Smith [00:46:21] Juliana, you said it beautifully. You said, I've been all over the country, all over the world. This is the only freaking place where race is such an issue. We live in a racial oligarchy in this country, okay? And white people benefit from it because it was set up by white people. So when I say white people are racist, and that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying they're racist because they burn crosses on people's yards. I'm saying they're racist because they benefit from white privilege. They don't have to deal with the same stuff that you and I, Julienna, have to deal with on a day to day basis.

Darron Smith [00:46:52] Can I touch your hair? Where are you from? All these stupid questions that you get asked by people who mean well. But for you and I, it's the continuation of those questions, those microaggressions, that causes us problems. So I say all white people are racist not because they're mean, but because they benefit from white privilege first and foremost. Okay? That might make some people uncomfortable, but if you look at the research and the evidence, it seems to support that we live in a racial oligarchy, and that's the way it goes now.

Darron Smith [00:47:26] Okay? So I'll say that. What else? What would I say? Prejudice is different from racism, right? Anybody can be prejudiced. I can be prejudiced. John can be prejudiced. Anybody can be prejudiced. And anybody can act on their prejudices. And they often Do. And I found that to be the case when people. People have attacked me in these various groups because of my role in this issue with Jonathan, which I highly, highly don't appreciate. I don't appreciate people attacking me personally. Okay, if you got a comment to say, please ask me a comment. But if you're gonna come out to me personally, we're done. We're absolutely done.

Darron Smith [00:48:05] That's very unproductive, particularly when it comes to this, my background. Okay? If those who don't know I am a race scholar, if you Google me, you'll see. You'll see me come up in all the things that I've written about race. I'm telling you right now, I know you guys don't believe it, but racism is endemic in this country. It was created in this country, and it was largely borrowed by other nations who were looking at having similar kinds of racist moments. I don't know if you know this, but in Mein Kopf, written by Adolf Hitler, he praises the United States, particularly our racial eugenics program that we had in the 20s and the 30s.

Darron Smith [00:48:46] Hitler was very, very impressed with the way we did race, the way that we handle race over in this country. That says a lot about how much work we have to do in order to get past this. One of the things that black folks need to do in the church who are in the church and remain in church is recognize the fact that you have to make compromises to stay. Juliana, you said it so eloquently. You have to make compromises to stay. If you stay, you choose to deal with the. The racial bull. And can I cuss in this thing?

Julienna Viegas [00:49:17] You already did, okay?

Darron Smith [00:49:22] You stay and deal. You agree to deal with the bullshit, okay? Or you can remove yourself from the stressor, right? And live a productive life and so on and so forth. So what I'm saying here is that if you want systemic change in the church, you got to go to the head, the brethren, somehow convincing them that an apology is the right thing to do, to help, to help people. I don't want to see people hurt, and I don't certainly want to be a part of their pain. So. And that's why I keep saying, and that's. John, you mentioned this earlier.

Darron Smith [00:49:56] Put the burden on where it's supposed to be. Not on me, not on Juliana, not on Sarah, not on John, not on Sean. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, particularly the First Presidency. That's where your anger and frustration ought to be. If your anger and frustration is on me or anybody else, it's misguided anger. It's misguided anger. I'll say that. So in terms of racism, can everybody be racist? Can everybody be racist? I'm saying that whites can be racist because they have privilege. Blacks can't be racist because they don't have power.

Darron Smith [00:50:30] They have no power to change this shit. If we did, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Right? We wouldn't be having this conversation. So African Americans cannot be racist in the same way that whites can because they don't have white privilege and they don't have any power. But black people engage in racist acts all the time simply because they've learned it from whites. They've learned how to act and behave, you know, behave from whites. And then using white people, try to blame white people. Oh, he's like, for instance, Jonathan Streeter. I'm blaming Jonathan Streeter. Jonathan, you make me feel bad. You make me feel bad because the church is racist.

Darron Smith [00:51:07] You're reminding me of the racism in the church again. That's a structural issue. The issue has to be at the head, the institution. Not the individual, the institution. But the problem. As I said earlier, churches aren't democracies. They're not democracies. And if there. And if there's. If there is a opposition to the brethren, you have an opportunity twice a year to stand up and raise your hand and disagree. But nobody will ever do that, because if you ever did that, you'd be pummeled, just like we've been pummeled. Just even saying, you know, I thought this was a brilliant idea. I'm gonna say it again. I thought it was a brilliant idea.

Darron Smith [00:51:47] I'm gonna say it again. Some of y' all gonna get pissed about. But I thought it was a great idea to start a conversation. What I. What I. What I take responsibility for is my part in playing up on it. Like Peggy. I called and I asked Peggy if she. Peggy met Peggy Fletcher, stat. I asked Peggy if she knew what was going on, and she felt extremely betrayed by me. You knew what was going on and you didn't. And you let me go. So I feel bad about that. With Peggy, I tried to play it up with several people, and I apologize for that.

Darron Smith [00:52:15] And if people don't accept my apology, that's about you, not about me. It's my apology. I put it out there. But again, I'm gonna say. I'll say one more time, and I'm done. Sarah, the problem is at the foot of the church. Stop blaming individuals for the church's. Racism.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] Sarah, I just have a follow up. I'm really sorry. So let's just, let's, for the next little few minutes, let's put Jonathan Streeter aside, let's put the church aside and let's just talk about. How can we talk about racial issues in Mormonism, post Mormonism, and maybe even in America? Because what happened was all these basically when Sisters in Zion and other people of color who were faithful said this was racist, this was bad, this was mean, this was, you know, and they started insulting Jonathan, saying Jonathan is, he doesn't care about people of color, he's a racist, this is a racist act. Whatever they did. Then a bunch of people started speaking up. And I used to think of it along sort of white versus people of color lines, but now I really am wondering whether it's sort of non believer versus believer lines.

Darron Smith [00:53:31] Yeah, that's exactly what it is, John.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] But let's just say that's true. There's still a bunch of people of color who are believers. And, and so again, the big mistake I made was, was, and was not thinking of them when I saw it. And I think we've all agreed that maybe we didn't realize the extent that this would hurt believing people of color because we aren't in their shoes. So once they start speaking up, what's our job when they start speaking up? And Sarah, I think you can jump in here too, because, you know, you may have not been affected by the priesthood ban, but I'm sure you know what it's like to have a bunch of white people or privileged people speaking up on issues and telling you you got us wrong.

John Dehlin [00:54:19] Wait a minute. Trying to white splain you. You know what I'm saying? And so what is the right way to respond when people of color are speaking up and saying this hurt me. What are the wrong ways to respond and what are the right ways to respond?

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Just to throw in my two cents here, I personally feel like when it comes to beliefs, beliefs are so personal. And I've never had it as a goal to try to get people to leave the church, to stop having faith in what they've chosen to believe in, even if I'm completely against it. I spoke with two sets of missionaries this year, one in January and one in April.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] The first set told me they taught me that Native Americans didn't have religion when Columbus arrived and that they were lost in darkness. And they gave me a bunch of quotes. I recorded the conversation, I put it on my website, in fact, and, and I was really kind of retriggered and affected by the things they said. And then the ones that I spoke to in April, I let them know, heads up, I'm Native American, because the first set, I didn't tell them I was Native American. So they were telling me all these things, not knowing how they affected me. So the second set, I told them everything, and it was more intense than the first set.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] They had no problem explaining to me that my skin was cursed or that Native American skin was darkened as a sign of a curse. Also recorded that conversation, put it on my website. The leader of the conversations, I'm not going to talk about who the missionaries were, give names, their kids that were raised in the church, so they've experienced their own brainwashing stuff. So when I.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] When I'm personally affected by racism and my race, what I experienced is much different than what black Mormons experience, but it's also similar in some aspects. The thing I go in always trying to remember, well, there's two things, really. One, most people just want to help. If they say things wrong, everybody's going to say things wrong. Even these missionaries think that they're helping. If you understand that most people just want to help, including Jonathan Streeter, including Sisters in Zion, they're standing on completely opposite sides, and they all just want to help. The second thing that I find very meaningful from a Native American perspective is a quote by Chief Seattle.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] When I was going through my faith transition and struggling through a lot of things, I came across this teaching. And Chief Seattle said, humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. So I look at the black members that are in pain and angry, every bit the same as I do the people that are on the outside that are angry.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] Understanding that everyone just wants to help, including the white people that are going to say things wrong because they haven't experienced it, including men who say things wrong to women who've experienced sexism, including people that aren't lgp that say things wrong to the LGBT community, but realizing that there's a lot of solidarity out there and there's a lot of desire from so many areas to help. And if we can focus on that, that's when we'll actually see change. Stop defending ourselves, stop attacking each other's beliefs, and just focus on what's real, and that's the people themselves. But that's just you.

Julienna Viegas [00:58:22] That was beautiful. That quote, that Native American quote. Was very beautiful. That's really how I feel. I have listened to the hours of Sisters in Zion and LaShawn speaking. I've listened with my heart to what they had to say and I felt with them. I've listened to John Streeter and the sorrow that he feels is real. He talked to me on the phone. He's now kind of crouching and I want to see if you call yourself Christians. I want to see you extend a hand and accept the apology because it's not a fake. Even if he were pushed to write it, he did.

Julienna Viegas [00:59:05] How many years has it been that the church has been pushed to write the apology and did not? Myself, I have written a letter, an op ed about three years ago asking the church to do the right thing and to do what they preach and to reach out. You know what really hurt me? I think I read it this morning or yesterday. One of the. I think it was one of the Sisters in Zion who said. Or lashawn who said.

Julienna Viegas [00:59:34] So she read that letter. She was heartbroken. And then straight after that she had some kids in her car and went to that meeting, that conference and she felt invisible. She felt invisible. No one acknowledged what just happened. And I know they know they are the first to know what's going on when it comes to the church and that's what's going to happen. They are just going to ignore the thing and not reach out. And that is the fault. That is the bigger crime is to hope for it to just pass under the water and ignore a whole community that is suffering and in pain and not reaching out.

Julienna Viegas [01:00:13] Like there is a bomb right next to your house and you're going to pretend it's not there. And that is so hypocritical. I agree with you. Everyone wants to be loved. A lot of people want to reach out and Jonathan wanted to help. He did it in a wrong about way. He wanted to help and push something that is dear to his heart. He wasn't trying to use the community to standpoint. I'm actually really disappointed with with Peggy Fletcher's article on the Salt Lake Tribune. I really looked up to her. I admire her. I liked her article. I thought her latest article about the hoax was so one sided and very unfair to Jonathan because he talked to her and he told her his real intention and she and it did not transpire in the article in Salt Lake Tribune.

Julienna Viegas [01:01:02] And I don't care about what the majority think. I care about what my truth is. And my truth is ask people why they do what they do and you will know if their intentions was good or evil. Before you call people Satan and supremacist and just expand your vocabulary a little bit. Stop insulting and try understanding.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] And most of the time you'll find that their intentions were good. We're going to have to wrap up here pretty quick. If you want to say whatever you guys need to, go ahead.

Reflections, Takeaways, and Closing Thoughts

Darron Smith [01:01:32] I was just going to say I really appreciate the comments that Julianne and Sarah made. I mean, I don't think I can really follow up. Julianne particularly. What you just said here a minute ago was just so profoundly poignant. I think I've spoken my piece. I think people know how I feel about this issue like you. The church needs. If people are in this kind of pain, the church needs to say something about it. The church needs to do something about it. And if they don't do anything about it, then there's your answer right there. They don't care much about. They don't care much about your feelings. And that's where, that's the way I see it. So like I said before, I will be happy to engage anyone in these questions, but I won't involve myself in vitriol. I won't do that. But that's all I have to say about it.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] I guess the church is coming out with a B1. So if you go to B1, that's B E O N E B1 lds.org the church is doing, I guess, a live broadcast on June 1st first. It's put some videos up on its website about Jane Manning, James and about Elijah Abel and it's got a little promo set of content where it's trying to sort of celebrate the 40th anniversary of the priesthood ban being lifted. I've seen a lot of people in the progressive post Mormon community saying, why is this a celebration? Is it weird that the church is celebrating this? Have you guys seen the church's, you know, intention on celebrating this moment? And do any of you have thoughts on that? The idea of celebrating it and basically a call for unity, right? It's a call for unity.

Julienna Viegas [01:03:17] It's beautiful to send a call for unity, which any church does and should do. It's another thing to just face the fact and acknowledge people's pain and say something about that and give them give the apology that is.

Darron Smith [01:03:33] That's right. That's right.

Julienna Viegas [01:03:35] I'm not even invested in it anymore because quite frankly, I don't care. I'm gonna be happy for Sisters in Zion and lashawn and anybody when I Hear that apology. I'm gonna rejoice for the people who are still in, because I'm where I'm at, and I'm very happy where I'm at, but because I still have ties, because I grew up in that church, because I have lots of friends in that church, I will rejoice with them when that happens. Until that happens, everything else is kind of like.

Julienna Viegas [01:04:05] I mean, it's not, as a church, saying we should be united and love each other and embrace everybody. Isn't that what every church does and says? How does that differentiate you from anyone? Like, I don't see any, you know, anything to glorify, you know, the church for that. Like, do the right thing. Acknowledge the pain and do something about it. That's my call to the LDS Church. Do something about the real pain. It's nothing to do with Jonathan Sweeter. Whether what he did in global perspective is insignificant. It's irrelevant in comparison to what should be done by the people who matter most, who are the leaders of the church. Reach out to the black community and show that you care. That's what I have to say, Juliana.

Darron Smith [01:04:53] I second that motion. I second that motion. And I would say this. There's no celebration without an apology. There can be no celebration without recognizing the pain that people have experienced. So for me, there's no celebration.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] That right there is huge, Darren. I had not considered that side of things with them doing the celebration. I find that very, very poignant.

Julienna Viegas [01:05:19] I agree.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Thank you.

Julienna Viegas [01:05:21] That's a blanket. So, anyways, I do, you know, I hope everyone who's hurting right now that they will find peace and healing, whether it's in or out of the church. I empathize, and I get it. Believe it or not, I've been through excruciating pain myself. You know, everyone has their own experience, but I know the pain. I know the pain, and I don't wish it on anyone. And anyone who wants to talk to me, feel free to talk to me. But just like Darren said, if you're just gonna insult me or say that I'm trying to please the white man or some nonsense like that, don't talk to me then. But if you want to understand or me to understand, I will have a civil conversation with anyone who wish to talk to me.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] Thank you, Juliana. John, did you have any last comments or. I think that about wraps it up.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] No. You guys have been brilliant. We may. You know, I do, actually. Just one thing. I want to extend an invitation to Janan to any of the Sisters in Zion We've tried to reach out if there's any believing Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] When I say people of color, I mean specifically people that would have been affected by the priesthood ban. I would love to host another panel sometime next week and get additional perspectives. We did all we could, but if there's anyone who feels like their position wasn't represented today, that it could have been represented better, I'd be willing to do two or three more discussions of this because we can't have too many discussions about race. And just because you're post Mormon or ex Mormon or progressive Mormon doesn't mean you understand the issues of race, doesn't mean you're a good ally.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] There's just a lot of work to do in the world and in every place. So I just want to say, I want to just end with an open of it. Well, with a huge thank you much. So, Sarah, to you, you're a brilliant moderator and pundit. And then Juliana and Darren, I love you guys. I was so grateful you'd be willing to come on. You guys are all so passionate and thoughtful and tolerant, and I love that. And so I love you guys. And I just want to thank you and invite any believing people of color to form a panel. I won't even be on it if you don't want me to.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] And we'll let you guys go and tell the progressive post Mormon world what. What we need to know because we want to learn, we want to listen.

Darron Smith [01:07:54] Yeah. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Thanks, John.

Darron Smith [01:07:57] Sarah, Julienna, thank you.

Julienna Viegas [01:07:59] Thank.

John Dehlin [01:08:06] You.

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