Introduction and Episode Overview

Radio Free Mormon [00:00:00] Foreign

John Dehlin [00:00:03] and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your two or three co hosts for today, John Dehlin. Hi, everyone. As you can see, if you're watching us, I'm sitting here next to Jen. Hey, Jen.

Guest [00:00:16] Hey, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] It's your first time to co host in studio one.

Guest [00:00:20] It is.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] What do you think?

Guest [00:00:21] It's great.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Yeah, it's good to have you.

Guest [00:00:23] Neat little setup.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Yeah. Thanks for staying late tonight. So we've got Jen, Jen camp with us and we also have Gerardo with us. We'll be showing him in just a second. And we're super excited to have Radio Free Mormon here with us as well. This is a timely and important news story. We try and cover breaking news stories within Mormonism if we feel like they're important. And this is an important one. The title of today's episode is Mormon Leaders Defend Child abuser.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] It is May 17, 2022 and we are here to discuss yet another disturbing child sex abuse case within Mormonism or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I would just have to say it's almost like one of these comes out every month. And this has been true for five or ten years at least. And so it's, it's the type of case, Jen, that I'm not like happy to do. I'm not excited to do these. It's depressing and dark and sad in some ways, but how do we not cover it?

Guest [00:01:31] Yeah. In all ways. Yeah, yeah. It needs to be covered because it needs to change. Yeah, yeah. I see Colby's here on the comments. Hi, Colby. Yeah, I'm glad you're here today too.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] Yeah, Colby and his, his dear wife were on just recently as we covered their attempts to make build awareness within their ward and stake in Idaho about bishop who is a sex abuser. We'll include their story in the show notes, but that's what we're here to cover today. We want to begin with a content warning. We will be talking about sexual abuse and, and some of the discussion may be disturbing. So please either tend to whoever's listening within earshot of this episode or viewing it if you're watching it or if you yourself need to practice self care, take breaks, whatever, all the trigger warnings for the, for the disturbing adult nature of today's content.

Star Tribune Report on the Minnesota Case

John Dehlin [00:02:36] We are here to, to cover this story. So I'm now showing from the Star Tribune, published May 13, 2022. So just four days ago, a story with the headline former Minnesota Mormon leader convicted of sexually assaulting 13 year old boy, that is the headline. And we'll go ahead and read, we'll go ahead and read just a bit about the story. It just to give some detail, the man in this photo is mentioned as Michael Davis in the Star Tribune and I'll just read what the article says. A former church leader or Mormon church leader, I'll say. In southeast Minnesota was convicted Friday of sexually assaulting a 13 year old boy in 2018.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Michael Davis, 37, of Dodge center, was found guilty of two charges each of first and second degree criminal sexual conduct as well as one count of indecent exposure. He was taken into custody after the verdict, a sentence. A sentencing date has not been set.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] A jury took less than four hours to reach a decision. Davis's trial started Monday. According to court documents, Davis sexually assaulted the teen several times at Davis's home in December 2018. Davis was an Elders Quorum president at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Casson.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] We'll see if I pronounce that right later. The victim and his family were also members at the time and Davis was asked to be a mentor to the teen. Court records show Davis is a registered sex offender in Utah where he was convicted of two sex crimes before moving to Minnesota. Jeffrey Harlide I have no idea if I pronounced that right. An attorney with the Olmsted County Attorney's Office prosecuting the case for Dodge county argued the evidence was quote, overwhelming, close quote, that Davis groomed and assaulted the victim under the guise of being a mentor. Defense attorney Thomas Braun argued that the victims and witnesses testimony was inconsistent and that law enforcement did a poor investigation after a victim's mother reported Davis to police in April 2019.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Police stopped Davis in February 2019 for a seatbelt violation while he was driving with the victim. Officers questioned the victim who denied any abuse took place. Law enforcement initially closed the investigation into Davis, but reopened it after the victim told his relatives about the assaults in late March.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] And if I had to give any more, kind of of just a teaser opening introduction. You know, a couple things that are particularly disturbing about this case is number one, that this, this Davis fellow was a registered sex offender in Utah and somehow he ends up as Elders Quorum president in Minnesota. How in the world does a registered sex offender become in, you know, like let's just say one of the top five leaders of an entire Mormon congregation.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] That's deeply problematic. Is there no screening? Is there no background checks? Like, is there no flagging of membership records? Like, how in the world did that?

Guest [00:06:04] Is there no discernment yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] Right. Is there no discernment? Very, very good, Jen. And then, and then what we'll, what we'll be discussing is I believe, the stake president and the. I think it's a branch president's involvement in the case. And it turns out that they were advocating for the abuser in the court case, not the victim. They, they have two signed affidavits, as I understand it. We'll be getting into this in a second, trying to siding with the defense, not with the prosecution. So why would Mormon leaders be siding with the defense of a, of a. Someone accused of, of sexual abuse who has a record? Why is the stake president and the branch president siding with the abuser, the defender, not the victim or the, or the, you know, the side of the prosecution.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] And I'm sure there's other issues we're going to be discussing as well. So with that, we are super excited to bring on Gerardo, who is the, the reason this whole thing is happening. Gerardo is our friend and a colleague and co host. Gerardo, thanks for making this happen. It's good to have you as a co host today.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:20] Yeah, thanks, John. Hello, everyone. And I want to give a shout out to Michael because I think I've been Facebook friends with Michael, Michael Benjamin for a while and he's been posting a lot about this case and his involvement in the case.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:39] And I think the la. He's. One of his last posts really caught my eye where he mentioned, you know, the affidavits that were submitted by the stake president and the branch president. I was like, oh, I wonder what that's about?

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:56] And thought that this was a pretty interesting and unique case. Something I, I personally hadn't heard before. Usually the church wants to distance church leaders from, from ever getting any involvement in, in cases like this, but this was maybe a little bit different.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:18] So, yeah, big shout out to Michael Benjamin, who has been really involved with this case, was his testimony was really important in getting the abuser convicted. And so, yeah, welcome, Michael, a little bit about you. Well, and John, I don't know if you want to say something.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] No, no, no. Thanks, Gerardo. And I'm going to add another really super disturbing preview to this case is the way Michael, just like with Colby, how Colby was kind of punished by his Mormon church leadership for trying to help make the members, keep the members safe or help the church become a safer place, just like Colby Reddish was punished. I think part of what we're going to be talking about is how Michael was also punished for advocating for the victims and for trying to make the church safe. But, Michael, we're almost ready to come to you. We're super happy to have Radio Free Mormon here with us as well. Radio Free Mormon is a known legend in the podcasting realm. He hosts, he co hosts Mormonism Live with Bill Real. And he, of course, is the host of Radio Free Mormon podcast. And he's a freaking criminal defense attorney. Right, Radio Free Mormon.

Radio Free Mormon [00:09:38] That is true.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] So you're going to be siding with the defense on this case as well, I assume.

Radio Free Mormon [00:09:44] I'm going to try and analyze this as fairly and impartially as I can to the extent that you want me to do so.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Awesome. Awesome. Well, Radio Free Mormon, we're really, really grateful. And I think Gerardo notified you like eight minutes ago that you were this. We appreciate you coming on. I'm joking.

Radio Free Mormon [00:10:03] But it was 9:00' clock last night.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] Okay. Yeah. We appreciate you jumping on and we love you and adore you. And so, without any further ado, Michael Benjamin, you are the main guest of today's show and in some ways, kind of the hero of this. Well, one of the heroes in the story, if you even want to be named as such. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Introducing Guest Michael Benjamin

Michael Benjamin [00:10:24] Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor and a privilege to be here. And I was telling you earlier, I'm a dedicated listener. Listen to Mormon stories and Radio Free Mormon while I'm running and doing dishes and cleaning the house. So, yeah, thanks for having me. And thanks for bringing attention to this case. I think it's really important. And everything you mentioned earlier, I think needs to be discussed and brought to people's awareness. Yeah. And I don't. I don't consider myself a hero in this. In this situation. I think the true hero is the victim or the survivor in this case who was brave enough to tell his story not only when he was interviewed, but also again in court, which usually isn't the case.

Michael Benjamin [00:11:08] Usually they don't have the victim testify again in court. Here in Minnesota, they usually use a weight, what's called a corner house interview. So he. He actually testified twice.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm excited to get into several things. We want to talk about your background a bit, Michael, how you got in, into this case, and then we'll talk about the history of the defendant, and then we'll talk about the actual case itself and how the church handled it. Yeah. So, Gerardo, do you want me to kind of guide this, or were you planning on kind of guiding this? This Interview.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:47] You can go ahead. We can. I'll probably be helping, giving the context with. Along with Michael and. And RFM has read a lot about it today, so. Okay.

Radio Free Mormon [00:11:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] Okay. All right, Michael, so if. If you don't mind, why don't you. Why don't you back up and just tell us just a tiny bit about yourself and a little bit of context about you before we jump into the case.

Michael Benjamin [00:12:10] Sure. So I was born and raised here in Minnesota near the Twin Cities, and was raised in the church my whole life. My parents converted when they were in their teens and young adulthood, but I was essentially raised in the church. Baptized at 8, graduated from high school in 1993, went to BYU to study, and then from 1994 to 1996, I went on a mission to Ecuador, and then came back from my mission to Ecuador and went back to BYU, got my bachelor's degree in social work in 1999. And then I took a year and worked in Utah in Provo as a child protection investigator.

Michael Benjamin [00:13:08] And then I decided to go back to school to get my master's. Master's degree in social work at BYU and graduated with my MSW in 2002, and then moved to Caldwell, Idaho, which is just outside of Boise. And that's where I had my first job as a. As a therapist, a clinical social worker, and lived in Caldwell, Idaho, from 2002 to 2011.

Michael Benjamin [00:13:37] While there, I. Like I said, I was a therapist at a community health center. And then I served in multiple leadership positions in Idaho, including the elders quorum, president and branch president of a Spanish branch there. And then in 2011, I moved here to Rochester, Minnesota, which is in southeast Minnesota, and worked at the Mayo Clinic for about five years, and then as a. Again as a therapist. And then I moved over to another agency here in Rochester, and that's where I currently work.

Michael Benjamin [00:14:17] I have four kids, 23, 21, 18, and 17. And what else can I say? I love to run, Love Broadway musicals. So, rfm, I love listening to all your references to Broadway musicals.

John Dehlin [00:14:42] What is the best Broadway musical? And this will decide whether RFM or I or Jen or Gerardo, like you best.

Michael Benjamin [00:14:51] My current favorites, because they kind of change, I would say, are Dear Evan, Hansen and Hamilton.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Okay. Yeah, you just endeared yourself to me and estranged yourself from rfm. RFM would want to hear, like, you know, Camelot or Man of La Mancha or hello, Dolly.

Michael Benjamin [00:15:11] Yeah, like all the classics.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] Is that right? Rfab, the Music Man.

Radio Free Mormon [00:15:16] Music man is the correct answer. So, Mr. Benjamin, what is your current relationship with the LDS Church, if you don't mind my asking.

Michael's Background and Church Experience

Michael Benjamin [00:15:24] Yeah, so I'm still a member. I would say I'm physically in, mentally out. And this case has had a lot to do with me being mentally out. What's surprising to me, with everything that's happened, and we'll get into some of the details later, is that I haven't been ever officially, like, called to a disciplinary council or disfellowshipped or excommunicated. There's been a lot of, like, other things that have happened short of that and actions taken short of that. But, yeah, I would, I would consider myself still a member of the church. I'm still on the membership records, but have not been actively attending. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] What I, what I, what I note that's, to me standing out most from your introduction is that you're a licensed clinical social worker. That, that puts you in a whole other category in terms of your involvement in this case, because you know about mandatory reporting, you know about what, how to handle sexual abuse, you know, what it does to families, you know, the proper way to handle these sorts of things. And I would guess that would put you, once you hear about this happening in your own neck of the woods, so to speak, that would give you a strong motivation to want to make sure the victim's taken care of in the proper way and that other ward and stake, well, branch and stake members are kept safe. Because, you know, the risks of having a registered sex offender in your midst, so to speak.

Michael Benjamin [00:17:04] Exactly. Yeah. You hit it right on the head. When this first hit the news back in 2019, I read the article and saw that he was a member of the church, was an elders quorum president, and that there was this claim out there of him not being in a position of authority. And immediately, yeah, all my, you know, social work training and red flags went off. And that's when I just became really passionate about speaking out about this case, getting involved. I am the one that reached out to the prosecuting attorney to, you know, give him information because I knew, you know, in rural southeast Minnesota, the county attorney is probably not going to know a lot about the LDS Church.

Michael Benjamin [00:17:46] And so I took it upon myself to, to educate him on the structure and hierarchy of the church. But yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, not only, you know, am I a social worker and have experience doing child abuse investigations and know all the ins and outs of, you know, mandated reporting and, and sexual abuse victims and cases, but as a therapist, I treat and work with kids every single day. Who have been sexually abused. And so it's something very near and dear to my heart and something that I feel very passionate about, which is why I've been so outspoken about this case. And that's really why I have been speaking out, is because I, I want to create a safe place for kids within the church.

Michael Benjamin [00:18:31] Whether I'm in or out of the church, I want the church to be a safe place for kids. If there's going to be kids in the church, I want them to be protected and I want there to be policies and procedures in place to protect them so that cases like this don't happen again.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] Perfect. Okay, before we actually jump into the facts of this case, I want to do a quick exercise. I think the Mormon Church has a pretty well established pattern for how it handles sex abuse cases in the church. And so kind of putting aside the little that I even know about this case, I want to sort of like lay out what that pattern historically has been so that then we can see if this case matches the pattern. Is that. Okay, so I want RFM and Gerardo and Michael, I want you. Well, not you, Michael. I want everyone and Jen to fill in what I'm missing.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] But basically, whether it's through Sam Young's work with Protect LDS Children or all the abuse victims that we've covered on Mormon Stories and all the emails and direct messages that we get, which have been in the thousands, not exaggerating over my time with Mormon stories, because sexual abuse is rampant in the Mormon Church, as I understand it. Here's kind of how it goes that oftentimes, just like with Spotlight in the Catholic Church, that the abusers are not tracked or they're not punished.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] They're not kept from positions where they might have power or access to further victims. So they're often repeat offenders who abuse who have, who, who have, who are known offenders from the church in the past. Right. When they abuse, the. The victims are usually silenced or told to be quiet.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:23] Their.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] Their family members are also usually silenced and told to not tell anyone. They're usually all encouraged to trust in the atonement so that, so that they're rushed to forgive. They're the, you know, the bishops or stake presidents don't seek them professional help. Usually they're, they're.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] The bishops are given or branch presidents are given a 1, 800 number by the church to call. They call the 1, 800 number. The 1, 800 number takes them to Kurt McCon, the law firm. And usually Kurt McConi tells bishops or branch presidents not to report the case to the police to avoid it becoming a legal matter. And then heavy pressure is made to kind of silence the case, to make it go away, to not tell anyone. Oftentimes, not only are the. Are the abusers not punished, they're often not disciplined. And then often they're just allowed again to repeat the abuse.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] And again, the legal authorities are often just never involved at all. If it does spill out, then the church often tries to either kill the case, discredit the accusers, and. Or if they have to pay a bunch of money to settle it, and. And it's hush money and they sign a deal where. Where the victims and their family members all have to stay quiet. Now, is that the pattern that you all. Jen, Michael, Gerardo, or rfm, Is that the pattern that we've kind of established on Mormon stories and in other areas? Is there anything I'm missing? Is that not being fair? What would you guys add, remove or tweak? Jen, you go first.

Guest [00:22:14] I don't think there's anything.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] Does that kind of.

Guest [00:22:16] Yeah, that's what I've heard as far as other people's stories and ones that I know personally.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] Okay. Gerardo, anything you want to add, remove or tweak?

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:28] I think if we try to be as fair as possible to the Church, they would say that they have a statement, you know, that they are always reading about how the Church stands against abuse, any kind of abuse.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:44] And it's. It's interesting from what I remember, the. The statement doesn't say anything about the church priority being protect victims or anything like that. I think basically the statement is just they. They're against abuse. They don't condone it. Any kind of abuse is. Is wrong.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:07] Now, I know policies have changed, and the Church has tried to change policies on how to handle it. The hotline that you're talking about still exists. Bishops and sick persons are recomm. Are still told to call the church headquarters or. Or the hotline which goes to church lawyers. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:30] That's still on the handbook of Instructions. And I think that the church will try to do. Try to dismiss the case or try to get the case dismissed or. Or try to say, you know, like, dismiss the victim if. If it threatens their authority or it threatens the image of the Church, that's when usually the church will get involved.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:59] And this. That happens to be. This happens to be one of those cases. I think those are. I think those are the things I. I would add.

Church Culture of Protecting Its Reputation

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Okay, thanks, Gerardo. Yeah, I think. Yep. I appreciate you working to be Fair. The church is against abuse as a matter of public record.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:17] Yeah.

Guest [00:24:17] Yeah. I, I wish their actions would follow that statement.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] But it is their official policy that abuse is bad. Which we have to give them credit for.

Guest [00:24:27] Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Rfm. What else would you add or take away? Why are you smiling?

Radio Free Mormon [00:24:32] Because I think we can all agree that Hitler was probably a bad guy. I mean, it's not remarkable to have anybody say, oh, well, child abuse is a bad thing. I would say a couple of things, however. First is that the newspaper article that you read, John, is wrong in at least one respect. There are not two prior sex convictions from Utah. There are actually three.

Radio Free Mormon [00:24:52] And they may have made that mistake because two of them were guilty pleas entered under the same cause number, but there are actually three of them from Utah. The other thing is that what we're going to see here is that what ends up happening is that when you call the church legal counsel, the church legal council represents the church. They don't represent the individual members, they represent the church. And I think that basically what they try and do is they vet these calls that are coming in to see if there's any possibility that the child abuse, the alleged child abuse that's going on was conducted by a leader of the church or at church or on a church function.

Radio Free Mormon [00:25:32] Is there any way that the church could be held civilly liable for this action that's being alleged? And I think that if they see that that's not the case, then they don't really worry that much about it because the church isn't on the hook. But if there is an instance where a bishop does it, elders quorums, president does it, it's at scout camp, girls camp, you know, whatever it is that's church related, then they have a problem. And the problem is, is that these lawyers represent the church's interests, and the church's interests are not to be held liable and sued and have to pay a lot of money in exchange for this.

Radio Free Mormon [00:26:13] And so sometimes the lawyers take steps in order to make sure that doesn't happen. And sometimes leverage is put on members who trust the leaders of the church to do the right thing by the church. And a lot of times they do love it.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] Thank you, rfm. One thing I want to add to my narrative is what we learned from Colby Reddish and what we're going to hear maybe from Michael, is that if people, if members are too outspoken about the abuse, if members try to in any way counsel church leaders about locally how to deal with this, and, or if they start warning or cautioning members trying to get the word out that there's potential risks here or a mishandling of the situation.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] It appears as though the Mormon Church has a history of punishing the. Those members who act as either whistleblowers or as kind of vocal opponents to bad actions. So. Okay, so we've kind of established that. Now, Michael, take, take away in terms of the story of this case, we've got some slides here that you can tell me when and where to join. But where should we begin, Michael? With I guess the perpetrator. Right, sure. Where would you want to go next, Michael?

Prior Abuse Cases and Church Response

Michael Benjamin [00:27:36] Do you want to start with the, the Utah convictions?

John Dehlin [00:27:40] Yeah, whatever. We know about him and his history and his convictions.

Michael Benjamin [00:27:44] Yeah, yeah. So Michael Adam Davis lived in Sunset, Utah and was, as RFM mentioned, convicted in 2003 and then again in 2006 for sexual abuse crimes. The one in 2003 actually happened in an LDS church bathroom. And so, you know, leadership was aware, Bishop was aware. And then the, the conviction in 2006 references some sort of function at a camp. So, you know, my assumption is that it was possibly a church camp, just based on the, the information from the, the records. And that also indicates that the, the bishop was notified in that case. So in both instances, and we don't know the, you know, what leadership positions he had in each of those wards or branches, but it's clear that they happened at church activities, church functions, and that LDS leadership was, was, was aware of. Of these instances of, of abuse. And I don't know if there's a slides to that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:02] Yeah. John, can we share the first. Yeah. So that's the 2003.

Michael Benjamin [00:29:10] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] For those who are just listening, should we describe what, what we're showing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:14] Yeah. So this is the 2003 crime report, basically just giving some of the details of what happened. And so I highlighted this part where it just talks about the church scouting camp. It says Michael, our scouting function. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gerardo. Yeah. Michael, who is. And just so people don't get confused, we have Michael Benjamin with us. And, and when we talk about. And then the perpetrator or the abuser, his name is Michael Davis. So hopefully we don't. Yeah, we don't want to get those confused. But right now we're talking about the abuser. Michael would tell. Will tell him to hug him a little longer, stated that about a month ago they were at the church for a scouting function and that he went to the bathroom. And while in the, and while they're in the bathroom, Michael Will they? While they were urinating, Michael moved over

John Dehlin [00:30:20] the small stall and to the same stall.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:23] Yeah, yeah. To the same stall and sit right next to the victim and urinated in the same stall. So, yeah, that's what Michael was referencing. Michael Benjamin was referencing.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] And so we've got a scout leader trying to urinate in the same stall intentionally with the Boy Scout. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:45] Not sure if he was the leader, but he was. Michael. Michael Davis happened to be there.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Yeah, yeah.

Michael Benjamin [00:30:51] At the scouting function. Yeah. And then it goes on to say, you know, further abuse that happened.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:56] Right.

Michael Benjamin [00:30:57] At other places. But, yeah, I just. I found it interesting and concerning. Right. That. That it happened at the church, but that's.

John Dehlin [00:31:05] I guess we don't want to leave the wrong impression, so I. I just want to maybe vaguely describe the rest of the report, because it's basically several instances of Michael trying to get the victim to touch his penis, you know. Yep. Sending him pictures of him naked, being told no, you know, clothes being taken off, exposing himself. Exposing himself. Like it's. It's all really legitimate stuff.

Michael Benjamin [00:31:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] Yeah. Okay.

Radio Free Mormon [00:31:39] Just throwing in to say that it's actually not sending pictures. It's offering to send a picture but being declined.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] Okay, thanks. Thanks, rfm.

Radio Free Mormon [00:31:46] That's okay. Otherwise it would have resulted in more than just a misdemeanor conviction for the. The urination and the stall incident.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Got it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:53] Am I. I don't know if I'm wrong, but he plead guilty, Right. Or entered a plea deal for this one, right?

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:01] He did. He did. And, you know, I was reading this about urinating in the stall and the public exposure and the lewdness, and I was thinking, well, isn't that what we do as guys in bathrooms? But they interviewed Michael Davis, and Davis basically confessed that he was doing it so this other kid would see him. And that gave them enough to file the charge. They filed the one count. They got him to plead guilty to it, probably under pressure that if he didn't, they would file additional charges. But that's how that case wound up. And a misdemeanor, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Anything else you want to say about this particular crime report or case, rfm, that struck you or.

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:36] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Okay. Michael Benjamin.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:40] And then the second.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Oh, go ahead, Michael.

Michael Benjamin [00:32:43] No, no, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:46] Yeah. So the next one. The next slide. This one has Sunset City Police Department, Utah. And this is just part of a. Of the report, but I just highlighted this part where it says that John, who's the father of the victim, stated that he talked to the bishop and when he returned home and learned what had been said. So basically the bishop was. Was informed of the abuse. And Michael is this. Which one was the one where the bishop told the family to not talk about it?

Michael Benjamin [00:33:29] That was in the. The 2003 case.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:31] Okay.

Michael Benjamin [00:33:31] Yeah. So sorry. Yeah, we should have probably covered that.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] Previous case.

Michael Benjamin [00:33:35] Yep. The previous case, the Boy Scout with a. Yep. In the church. The. The bishop told the victim's mother and I think several other ward members to not talk about the case to anybody, to not share it with neighbors, to. To basically keep it quiet.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] Okay, and then who wants to summarize this Sunset City case, the second case? Who? Michael or rfm? Do either of you want to kind of summarize what happened in the second case?

Michael Benjamin [00:34:03] So my understanding is he. This one was a little more severe. These are felony charges. And it was unfortunately and very sadly against a female victim who had, I believe, cerebral palsy. And so it was a very vulnerable child, you know, on top of being a child, had had an illness. And so. And he also pled guilty in this case as well, and just ended up with home confinement, I think, for 30 days and then three years of probation.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:43] And this one did include full rape.

Michael Benjamin [00:34:48] Where?

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:49] Here it's in. In this screenshot, it says Ruth stated that the victim told her that Michael Davis was bothering her and that he had raped her about a year ago and she didn't want him. Here. Ruth stated that the victim told her that Michael was asking her to have sex and talk to her about putting something between her legs. So this one was more severe, right?

Radio Free Mormon [00:35:14] Yeah. Her order, it was more severe. I don't think there was actual penetration because when the victim describes what happened, that he was on top of her, moving on her, but they both had their pants on. And so that's probably why it's not a rape charge and why it is a forcible sexual abuse conviction. Two counts in there. But apparently there was also a lifetime sex offender registration that he was put

Michael Benjamin [00:35:37] under, which is key in this case. Right. So, yeah, in 2006, he got put on the sex offender registry in Utah for life.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] And does that put you into a national registry, too, or not?

Michael Benjamin [00:35:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Okay, so by this time, he's not only on Utah's, he should have his as. I feel like he should have his church record, his church membership record marked as a sexual offender multiple times. Right.

Michael Benjamin [00:36:07] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:08] This is why this one we highlighted that. That the bishop knew about this because he.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] He. And this is something I didn't add to my narrative oftentimes Well, I did. They're. They're not just sex abusers are often not disfellowshipped or excommunicated. Do we have any reason to believe, RFM or Michael, that this guy was disfellowshipped or excommunicated for these instances of sexual abuse?

Michael Benjamin [00:36:35] I don't have any information that would support that,

John Dehlin [00:36:40] because that communication would definitely go on your record. And that's what might have flagged his ability, that might have prevented his ability to become an Elders Quorum president later.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] If. If church discipline had happens. I mean, I guess maybe the second instance happened. No, the bishop knew, so.

Michael Benjamin [00:37:00] Yeah. Well, and that's a key. Another key part in this. That's another key part in this whole case is, you know, church policy. And I think we'll get to this later. In the handbook, it clearly states that any member who's convicted of a sex crime against a child should have their membership record automatically annotated and that the only way it can have that annotation removed is from permission from the First Presidency. So the. The Utah leaders, either one of them, in either of these cases, should have annotated Michael Davis's membership record at a very minimum, you know, even if he wasn't excommunicated, his. His record should have been annotated according to the church policy. And so either the Utah leaders didn't annotate his membership record according to the policy, or the leaders here in Minnesota didn't look at the annotation when. If it was there.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Okay.

Guest [00:37:55] Or the First Presidency took it off somehow.

John Dehlin [00:37:59] Yeah, it got absolved. Okay. So that's. That's disturbing. Where. Where do we go from here, Michael?

Michael Benjamin [00:38:08] So then in 2008, and I don't have details about this, all we know is that he violated probation of some sort in 2008. And that's kind of the last that I know of what happened in Utah. And then somewhere between then and 2018, I don't know when he moved here to Minnesota.

Michael Benjamin [00:38:30] And in December of 2018 is where he victimized the young man here in Minnesota in the. In the Cassin branch. And you did say the name, right, John. It's Cassin. So, okay, yeah. So there's a little branch here in Casson, Minnesota, that's about 20 to 30 minutes away from Rochester.

Michael Benjamin [00:38:52] And, well, I guess before the abuse, Michael Davis was called by the stake president, because we know the stake president makes the call for. Elders quorum president, called Michael Davis to be the elders Quorum president in the cason branch.

Michael Benjamin [00:39:08] And what we know now from court records and from testimony is that Michael Davis was, had a lot of interaction with, with youth and young men in the, in the branch. He was going on temple trips with them, you know, organizing and going on temple trips with them, helping to prepare and pass the sacrament.

Michael Benjamin [00:39:33] He was, he had organized a Book of Mormon reading challenge for the young men that came out in the court case. So there was, there's obvious interaction and some sort of authority over the young men in this branch. And I think we all know if you've served in a branch before or been a member in a branch, everybody helps out, right. Everyone kind of pitches in here and there.

Michael Benjamin [00:40:01] So there's like no calling that, you know, you're just the Elders Quorum president. If you're the Elders Quorum president, you're going to highly likely going to help with a youth activity or you know, a youth dance or help out, you know, in primary, whatever. Because everyone just kind of needs to do that in a branch. I know when I was branch president, you know, we, we were short a lot of members and people had to fill in wherever they could. So. So he, he was Elders Quorum president. And then.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] Can I just jump as a panel, I just wanted to quickly discuss this. Like first of all, I guess Michael, you haven't been able to maybe do some sleuthing to figure out like let's just say. So there's 10 year. How many years between his probation violation and the, the actual offense in Minnesota. How many years?

Michael Benjamin [00:40:50] 10.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] So I guess in theory during that he could have been exc. Let's just say best case scenario for the church, he was excommunicated, his records were annotated. But then he went through multi year repentance process and then repented, showed himself worthy, then somehow got re baptized. I don't know. I mean it's possible that's what happened during those 10 years, but. But still, like I'm just trying to scratch my head how this dude becomes Elders Quorum president with that history.

Guest [00:41:22] Yeah. Because if his membership's marked, even if he got re baptized, it will can supposedly continue to stay marked.

Michael Benjamin [00:41:31] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] Do any of you have thoughts on that? Like how this could have happened? I mean, I guess we've already kind of covered it, but I'm just, I'm just stunned. You go from felon on the national registry sexual life vendors registry for life to elders Quorum president in a Mormon Church with 200, $300 billion of resources. You think they do back? Well, number one that their own computer, internal computer systems would prevent this. And, and that they could afford background checks for leaders who are interacting with youth. Am I being unfair here? Am I being unreasonable?

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:13] No, no. There's. There, there's a thought that just came to my mind right, right now as I was reading the hand. As I read the handbook and I was reading it yesterday, something it says the church complies to.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] In.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:29] Wherever state in the United States requires for an ecclesiastical leader to have a background check, the church complies with that. And wherever state it doesn't require it, they won't do it. I wonder why it's that. And my guess is Minnesota does not require it.

Michael Benjamin [00:42:48] They don't.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:49] And, and because I think the sheriff talked a little bit about that. And my only guess for that is that maybe background checks are undermining the power of discernment that church leaders really believe they have. So can you imagine a scenario where the stake president and his counselors pray and get a name for. To call an elder scoring president? They run and they all feel like they got inspiration or revelation that that's the person that's supposed to be a branch president or a bishop or whatever. And then they run a background check and it comes back that they are registered sex offender. How that might affect, you know, their belief in, in their real power of discernment.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:44] I mean, this is highly speculative, but I think that could be one of the reasons why the church won't comply. Because like you're saying, John, they have infinite amount of resources to, to start doing this. Right. All. All over the place.

Michael Benjamin [00:43:58] So I mean, and it's such a simple. Yeah, and it's just. It's such a simple procedure that could happen that could protect kids all throughout the church.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] So the Boy Scouts are no model for protecting children, but even the Boy Scouts have background checks of their leaders. Right?

Michael Benjamin [00:44:15] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] So that's outrageous. I mean, here's a couple other options. One is that there's so many sexual abusers within Mormonism that they're worried that there wouldn't be enough men to staff leadership positions if they did background checks. Another is that there's so many known family members or friends or whatever that if they started doing background checks, there would be so much gossip that all the members would find out because award council and other things that it would. All the members would become immediately aware that there were predators among them. I could imagine them not wanting all the members to know in a ward the predators are.

Radio Free Mormon [00:45:01] That would be a horrible thing, wouldn't it?

Guest [00:45:03] All of this. I know. That's what I'm thinking sitting here. I'm like. I'm like, yeah, like, all the parents of the youth would go in on paying for any kind of background check to be done for the leaders of their children. I would. I. And also, like, let's just, let's like, I'm done with the word discernment. I'm sorry, men and patriarchy. But you don't. You don't. You don't have discernment. And if you're using that discernment to be in charge of who gets to be with my child, it's not going to happen. It's. It's not happening anymore. And if I was a parent, actually, I still am a parent in the LDS religion, technically, I would. I would make a stance in your ward to make sure that every youth leader has a background check. And if there's something found, they're not put in at any time in any future calling with the youth ever.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] And I'll just like, primary young men's, young women's. I think elders Quorum presidency needs to apply bishoprics and probably Relief Society presidencies, and any home teacher, visiting teacher or minister. Like, wouldn't they all need background checks?

Guest [00:46:46] Yes, Any. Any adult that is in contact or could ever be alone with any child. Any circum. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] All that.

Guest [00:46:57] That's what I'm saying. You like there. That would be my one plea to members watching right now that are still active, that you have this conversation with your bishop and you come together as adults who are concerned for children and know what happens in this day and time and understand that their discernment is not going to work. It's not going to be enough anymore. So that's my two cents. Sorry, I went off on a little tangent there.

John Dehlin [00:47:28] No apologies necessary. We. We love it. Rfm, we want to get you in here. Any thoughts on what's going on with. With how this could have happened and why we don't have a better system in place?

Church Teachings and Sex Offender Awareness

Radio Free Mormon [00:47:43] One of the problems that is endemic in Mormonism is the lack of knowledge about child sex offenders. And I say this because I did a podcast, this is like five years ago, and it was on a 1980 or 81 manual that they had for the church, which has since, like, been lost.

Radio Free Mormon [00:48:05] Except there's one copy that still exists. It's titled Homosexuality. And in it it talks about all the things that cause people to be homosexuals because they're not born that way. But there's also a part in it that talks about child sex offenders. And this part was especially disturbing to me because it was clear that the person who wrote this, and of course it's from the church, it's Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's the official position at the time is the idea that a child sex offender can repent of child abuse such that they're cured, that it's sort of like, I don't know, stealing something from a store and you can make restitution for it and promise not to do it again.

Radio Free Mormon [00:48:56] And you go on and, you know, slates clean. You can go on with your progress in the church, but there's lots of sins like theft that a person can repent of and lose the desire to do it again.

Radio Free Mormon [00:49:11] But research tends to show overwhelmingly that child sex offenders are not like that. Once you have developed the urge for sexual contact with minors, that doesn't just go away. It's not something that can be repented of. And I think that the church should learn that lesson. And it's what you, John and Jen were talking about. It should be forever that you are not going to say, okay, you've repented. So now we can put you in as a youth Sunday school teacher because everything's hunky dory now and we can put it in the past. I think that's one of the problems that may factor into what happened in this case.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] Kind of an overconfidence in the atonement. Right. That the atonement somehow can fix a sexual predator.

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:07] Well, yeah, you could look at it that way. Or I think that's a similar way of saying what I was saying, that there's just a massive lack of understanding among the late leadership of the church as to the predilections. Predilections of sex offenders. What do you think about that, by the way, Michael Benjamin, do you see that too?

Michael Benjamin [00:50:26] Yeah, I agree. I completely agree with what you said.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] Yeah. I mean, another option is that, that they just don't see abuse being that bad. Like, okay, of course they don't want it, but maybe they just don't think it's a huge deal. But the thing that I'm confused about RFM is if we just assumed the church cared a lot about its image and its money, wouldn't it be in the church's best interest to background check everyone and to be really hard nosed about keeping predators away from potential victims? Wouldn't it be in their public image and financial interest to be really hard nosed about this because of the legal risks and the financial risks.

Radio Free Mormon [00:51:14] No one would think so. I mean, it's the same reason that you have the. The sheets in the bathrooms at Target where the people, the employees go in and clean up regularly. And they put the time. They cleaned up and then they put their initials or their signature there. Right. So there's documentation as to how often it's cleaned up, so that if someone comes in there and wants to pretend to do a slip and fall into Target, then they've got documentation in order to help defend against it. So, yes, I think that your idea is a good one. And it not only protects the children, which does seem to be a secondary consideration for the church.

Radio Free Mormon [00:51:49] It really does. But it would also help protect the church. And I'm not exactly sure why they haven't gotten the memo. And maybe it does get back to the idea of the spiritual gift of discernment and that somehow doing a background check undercuts that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] And. And I do. I do really think there's something to this idea that if. If someone's, you know, if. If someone being placed on a felony list or on a predator list is forever, and if someone's background checked would forever until they die, keep them away from any calling or keep them away from church service.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] That. But. But from the church's standpoint, the person was forgiven because they went to the bishop and did restitution, were forgiven, maybe even got re baptized, had their membership revoked. There would be a mismatch between the church's conclusion that the atonement had worked in that person's life and they were forgiven. There would be a difference between that and what the background check would probably allow. Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] And so I think the church would always want its determination of someone's worthiness and the ultimate infinite power of the atonement to always trump whatever a background check might find. So they want to keep priesthood authority primal in any background check or any other filter, secondary or primary. Primal. Primal.

Radio Free Mormon [00:53:24] No. Something happened here. Something fell through the cracks either. And let's just talk about the membership records. Either it wasn't annotated in the first instance or the SEC or the state president. Minnesota didn't look at it. Or if he did, he thought, well, who cares? It's been a long time. It's fine. He's only the elders Quorum president, Elder Scorm president. You know, what do they have to do with kids? They're over the elders. So somebody dropped the ball and this was the result.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] Okay. All right. Well, I just wanted to explore the Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:50] Just really quick. Wanted to show from the Hamburg instructions, this is the updated version 2020 and talks about the power of discernment for bishops. It says to help them fulfill the role, bishops and stake presidents are blessed with the spiritual gift of discernment. This gives help. This gift helps them discern truth, understand a member's heart, and identify his or her needs. And it cites Scriptures 1st Kings 3, 6, 12, and Doctrine Covenants 46:27 to 28. And this is under 31.1.7 by the interviews and. Yeah. So this is what bishops and sick prisoners are taught, right? That they have this power to discern people's hearts.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:43] And truth.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] Yeah. Okay, well, let's go ahead and continue with the story. I didn't mean to interrupt you, Michael, but I just. We had to touch on that while. While, you know, in the middle of the story, just because I'm dumbfounded that this guy's elder scorn president in your state.

Michael Benjamin [00:54:59] Yeah, no, I agree.

Radio Free Mormon [00:55:01] Michael, let me interrupt you again. Let me just go ahead and say the backdrop for this is that the church comes out every time this happens and says, hey, we've got the gold standard in protecting kids from sexual abusers at church. That happened several years ago. Do you remember that? We have the gold standard.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] I remember that. Yep.

Radio Free Mormon [00:55:23] Yeah. This doesn't look very gold to me. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, Michael.

Michael Benjamin [00:55:27] No, you're good. So he. Yeah, so he's elders quorum president. He has all this interaction with youth that we found out through the, the court. You know, he's taking youth on temple trips. He's blessing and, you know, preparing, passing the sacrament.

Michael Benjamin [00:55:46] And he's also in. In the midst of this, you know, grooming young men. So in particular this victim, but also he came out in court, was grooming another young man. So buying gifts, having this young man over to his house, playing video games, you know, basically, you know, just the typical grooming process.

Michael Benjamin [00:56:08] And in the midst of this, it's interesting that in. And this came out in a restraining order that was filed that in February 2019. So the abuse occurred in December 2018. In February 2019, the branch president is concerned about the relationship between Michael Davis and this young man and actually talks to the, the. The young man about, you know, you're spending too much time with this with Mr. Davis. And he was concerned that this relationship was inappropriate. So it, you know, begs the question, did, did he know something? Why was, why was he so concerned about this relationship? And then why didn't he go.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:51] Why. Why did he go to the minor and not to the adult.

Michael Benjamin [00:56:55] Well then, so he did, he did, did then later in February go and talk with the, the minor and the minor's parents about the concerns. And then also spoke with Michael Davis one on one on one about his concerns.

Michael Benjamin [00:57:09] And, but at no point either was any sort of like. And you know, likely because there wasn't any clear abuse that had come forward. But there was no report to anybody about this relationship. Right. This concerning relationship and how much time they were spending together. But obviously the branch president had concerns, expressed those concerns to the victim, his parents, and talked to Mr. Davis about it.

Michael Benjamin [00:57:33] So that was in February and then in March. That's when Mr. Davis and the victim were pulled over because. And this came out, came out in court as well. Michael Davis was allowing the, the young man to drive his car. So he was kind of like sitting in the middle section of the, of the two front seats and leaning over and like driving Michael Davis's car. And so he wasn't seat belted. And so that's when he got pulled over.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:01] I think the wording is steering.

Radio Free Mormon [00:58:03] Yeah. Can I throw in that was February 17th of 2019.

Michael Benjamin [00:58:08] Yes. When he got pulled over. Yes, yes, yep. And so, yeah, I was leaning over and steering the car, got pulled over. And when the police officer ran Michael Davis's information, discovered that he was a lifetime registered sex offender and was concerned, what is this guy doing in a car with a 13 year old, you know, by themselves.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:32] So third, how old was the victim?

Michael Benjamin [00:58:36] He was 13.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:37] 13, okay.

John Dehlin [00:58:38] Yep.

Michael Benjamin [00:58:40] Yeah. Because he was in young men's program and.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] Yeah.

Michael Benjamin [00:58:42] Yeah. So the police officer called the parent, parent came to pick him up. Police officer told the parent about Michael Davis's background as being a registered sex offender. And, and then later in, at the end of March, beginning of April, the, the young man finally disclosed the abuse that had happened in December. And so that's when Michael Davis was arrested on April 3rd to 2019.

Radio Free Mormon [00:59:16] Michael, that's very interesting to me because of what you said about the branch president being concerned about the time that the victim is spending.

Michael Benjamin [00:59:26] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:59:26] With Michael Davis and yet apparently still never does anything to check his background.

Michael Benjamin [00:59:33] Right, right.

Radio Free Mormon [00:59:35] Because this was a shock to the parents, wasn't it?

Michael Benjamin [00:59:37] It was, yeah. They had no idea. So then he's arrested and then that's when, you know, over the last, what's it, three years now, basically it's, you know, going to court. There's, you know, trials. Trials are postponed because of various reasons, including new evidence that came out one time it was postponed because of the pandemic and rising Covid cases here.

Trial Proceedings and Conviction

Michael Benjamin [01:00:09] There was also in the midst of all of this, and I guess this is the important part, where the defendant, the defense attorney, it wanted the charges dismissed because of the. The position of authority question. So all along, the whole time, there's this been this question about, was Michael Davis in a position of authority? The charges he was charged with were specific to sexual abuse crimes by a person in a position of authority. And so because there was the stance by the. The defense attorney that Michael Davis wasn't in a position of authority, he tried to file a motion and get the whole case dismissed, claiming that, no, he wasn't in a position of authority.

Michael Benjamin [01:00:56] He had no direct authority over youth. No. You know, kind of supervisory role over youth. The judge initially dismissed or denied that motion, and. And the trial went on, and then.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] Hey, Michael.

Michael Benjamin [01:01:14] Yeah.

Michael Benjamin's Parallel Involvement

John Dehlin [01:01:15] Before we really finish out discussing the case, I want to pause and talk about your involvement parallel to the case happening.

Michael Benjamin [01:01:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:01:24] Is that okay?

Michael Benjamin [01:01:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] When did you. Are you. Are you a member of the stake?

Michael Benjamin [01:01:28] I'm a member of the same stake, yeah. So the Cassin branch is in the Rochester stake.

John Dehlin [01:01:33] Okay. And you're. And so your water branch is how far from the Casson water branch?

Michael Benjamin [01:01:38] Like 20 to 30 minutes.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] Okay, so this is not super far from where you live.

Michael Benjamin [01:01:42] No, it's not.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Your. You're an award or branch.

Michael Benjamin [01:01:45] I'm in a ward.

John Dehlin [01:01:46] You're an award. Casting is a branch.

Michael Benjamin [01:01:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] So the abuse happens in 2018, 18. When did you find out about it? You.

Michael Benjamin [01:01:54] 2019. When it came out in the news. So when he was arrested, it hit the news. So in April of 2019 is. Yeah, when I became aware of it.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] Okay, so five months after the abuse occurs. Four or five months after you find out.

Michael Benjamin [01:02:08] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Okay. Talk about. But before we talk about it, going to court, did, like, the stake president tell everyone in the stake? Was everyone notified? Do you know if anything was done to protect ward member, branch members, other stake members? You know, it is a state calling. Elders Corn president is a state calling. Well, you know, and this is. I'm now thinking of Colby Reddish's case and how Colby learned about this and tried to talk to the stake president about how to keep stake members safe. What can you tell us about how the church is handling it once this. You know, once this breaks as a news story.

Michael Benjamin [01:02:46] Yeah. So basically, they released a statement similar to what Gerardo mentioned earlier. Right. That the church doesn't condone abuse, and they released that statement publicly. To the press. But there was no announcement within the stake. There was no, you know, no email sent.

Michael Benjamin [01:03:07] The. The Cassin branch had. Or maybe they still have a Facebook page, you know, for their branch. I think it's called Friends of the Cassin Branch. And somebody had posted the news article on that on the Facebook page, and people started kind of questioning and commenting like, how did this happen? Why, you know, how come nobody. Nobody knew he was a registered sex offender?

Michael Benjamin [01:03:30] And very quickly, that was taken down. So someone in leadership asked for. For all those messages in that article to be taken down. So it was a very. The. The message, the implicit message that was sent out was don't talk about this. Don't post about it. Right. And so. And there was nothing, like I said, from, from the stake or even the

John Dehlin [01:03:49] branch, that it's like, don't ask questions. Right. Don't ask questions. Don't talk about it. It's almost as if they want no one to know that it happened and no one to. No one to be aware that it happened. No one to know who was involved, and no one to question how it's being handled. Is that fair to say?

Michael Benjamin [01:04:08] Yeah.

Guest [01:04:08] But even already, like, someone already put it on the Facebook page, they're going to ask for it to be taken down after the, after the, you know, it's already out there. Like that. That's like another step. Yeah, like another step. If it's already out there, it's. And then they're asking for it to be taken down and no one to talk about it. That's. No.

Michael Benjamin [01:04:35] Yeah.

Guest [01:04:35] Like, that's. Yeah. I don't know. It's making me upset.

John Dehlin [01:04:41] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:04:41] Jen, that gets into the other aspect that comes into play here, which is that we don't want the church to look bad.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:48] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:04:49] And if there's an elders, quorum, president or other member associated with the church who does something bad, we want to put the kibosh on that so that people don't find out because it would interfere with the missionary effort.

Guest [01:05:03] Yeah. So let's put a. Let's put a. A lid on that and let's, like, keep the church's reputation. Okay. And the men in patriarchy. Okay. And let's just sacrifice all our children. That makes a lot of sense. LDS Church. That makes a lot of sense.

Radio Free Mormon [01:05:23] It has been my experience that whenever the reputation or good name of the LDS Church comes into conflict with the welfare of the members, it is always the good name of the church that's

Guest [01:05:34] going to win and that people should really think about that sentence that RFM

Michael Benjamin [01:05:40] just said, it's a. It's.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:42] It's. It's actually on the handbook of instructions as well.

Guest [01:05:48] Angry. Like, I want to cry and scream and call every state president. I don't know, reach every member. Like, it's just like, what organization do you want to be a part of? Where your children are dead last?

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:05] Yeah.

Guest [01:06:06] Like, I don't. I don't know. I'm sorry. Oh,

John Dehlin [01:06:14] well, this is serious stuff. Now, really quickly, if I'm also in the minds of the church leaders. And of course, this just flies in the. Colby talked about this. This flies in the face of Jesus's admonition that if you hurt one of the little ones, it's better that like a stone, cement block, millstone and drag down to the bottom of the ocean. Like, Jesus wasn't big on abusing children, so, like, he made his priorities known.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] But I can see the stake president or the branch president or other leaders thinking, whoa, if a member sees that an elders corn president who's actually a convicted felon and on the national register sex offenders list was called as elders quorum president, they're going to wonder how that happened. It's going to qu. It's going to make them question my inspiration as a stake president, my judgment as a stake president, the discernment. We've already talked about this topic, but I'm just. We're just now feet on the ground.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] It's going to make them question the stake president's judgment because it's a state calling and the branch president's discernment because he's the equivalent of a bishop.

Guest [01:07:29] And they should.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] Yeah, but I mean, they would. They don't want that. Right, right. Not to mention, if it gets out more, it's going to damage reputation. So anyway, I just wanted to highlight that. I'm just trying to put my. Why would the. Why would they be deleting these Facebook posts? Yeah, it's certainly going to cause potentially faith crisis in. In the membership of the branch and

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:52] stake, weaken the faith of the members as the. That's the wording on the handbook.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. Keep going. Sorry.

Michael Benjamin [01:08:04] Yeah. So my involvement and kind of what happened with me and the response from the leaders of the church, one piece that's important to get to that question is. So there's this stance by the defense attorney that Michael Davis was not in a position of authority. They filed a motion to try to have the case dismissed. Like I said, the judge denied that motion. To have the case dismissed and basically said, we're going to have a jury decide if Mr. Davis was in a position of authority. That was in March of 2020, and then for some reason in April of 2020, and I don't know, RFM, if you have insight into this, the judge reopened.

Radio Free Mormon [01:08:48] Was it 2021, by the way?

Michael Benjamin [01:08:50] No, it's 2020.

Radio Free Mormon [01:08:51] Okay.

Michael Benjamin [01:08:51] Yep. April of 2020, the judge reopens this motion to allow the stake president and the branch president to submit affidavits. And the defense attorney actually specifically says to the judge that he, he, he wants to get affidavits from the church leaders to support this claim that Michael Davis wasn't in a position of authority. So the judge reopens this, this motion to allow the stake president and branch president to, to either testify, I think, or submit an affidavit.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] Michael, Michael, I, I want to, I want to ask RFM a quick question to then lead to what you are about to say. Is that okay, yeah, RFM, let's go back to, you know that, that April 2019, when the guys erected and this, the guy's arrested and this becomes a news story. It's certain at that point, the branch president and. Or the stake president call the church hotline. Curt McConkey, you know, starts speaking with the stake president and they're like, we've got a problem. And rfm, you're smirking. Is it because they said erected? Is that why you're laughing? I apologize.

Radio Free Mormon [01:10:02] Please continue. I'll just try and get a grip.

John Dehlin [01:10:05] Okay. I apologize for that. So as a legal, as a legal, kind of consultant to this podcast, stake president's talking to Curtin McConkey and, and they're talking legal strategy at this point. Right. So they're thinking, all right, we've got an elders quorum president, we've got a member of the branch. There's been abuse. What's our, what's our case? What's our strategy? And can you imagine a strategy where Kurt McConkey advises the stake president to go with this line of reasoning that an elders quorum president has nothing to do with youth. Like, or, or how. How would you see that Kurt McCon stake president strategy unfolding legally?

Radio Free Mormon [01:10:49] Well, I think that the safest way to talk about it is what did happen? Because I don't know about any phone calls that were made or any communications made between the parties, but it was 2020. I double checked. You're right, Michael. So in early 2020, the defense brings a motion to dismiss the charges because all of the counts, and. And they keep adding counts, but all the counts are under this position of authority.

Michael Benjamin [01:11:11] Correct.

Radio Free Mormon [01:11:12] And that may or may not become important later, especially on appeal when this gets reversed.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:16] But yeah, I. I do want to say that the charges originally were not in a. Based on a position of authority.

Radio Free Mormon [01:11:23] Originally, there were two counts. It was for the same incident. The first count was charged as a position of authority. The second incident was for the same act, but it was charged in the alternative without the position of authority. Right, right, Yes, I noticed that, too.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:37] And at the end, there were four, all of them with the position of authority. Is that correct?

Radio Free Mormon [01:11:43] Yes.

Michael Benjamin [01:11:43] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:11:44] And there's a fifth one as well.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] And I was just wondering at what point. At what point are the Mormon Church leaders starting to think that they need to join the defense team? You know what I mean? How does that happen, rfm, if you even have a theory about that?

Radio Free Mormon [01:11:58] Well, how it happens is sometime between the first time the motion was brought in early 2020, and then denied by the judge who took it under advisement and issued an order denying the motion, and November of the same year, 2020, when apparently the parties agreed that the defense could bring the same motion, supplemented by two declarations, one declaration from the stake president and one declaration from the branch president. And they're actually identical to each other completely, except for the names. Right?

Michael Benjamin [01:12:34] Yep. Completely identical. Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:12:36] So I don't know if you want to put those up there now so you can see what they say, because really, they're not saying a whole lot. What they're talking about is the theoretical slide seven, John.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] Okay. All right, here we go.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:52] Can you make it full screen?

John Dehlin [01:12:54] Yes.

Radio Free Mormon [01:12:55] Yeah. So that's. That's affidavit of Randall Thomas. He is the stake president.

John Dehlin [01:13:01] Which one?

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:02] That one right there. That one affidavit of Randall.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:04] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:05] It says state president affidavit to the side. So somebody's already labeled that.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] Oh, Gerardo's.

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:12] Gerardo's.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] Go ahead. Okay, Heraldo, screen. Is this full screen? Herdo.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:17] Oh, sorry, that's my. Yeah, you're showing my screen. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:23] Let me remove that from the stream. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] We're doing the affidavit of the stake president, right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:28] Yeah. Right. And so great what it says, I'll read off my hard copy, if that's okay, please. Okay. I, Randall Thomas, make this affidavit in response to a subpoena from the above named defendant in relation to his omnibus motion regarding the issue of position of authority. So right off, he wants to make sure. That he's doing it because he's being ordered to. Although that seems kind of odd. I have no idea how they do things in Minnesota. All I know is that that's really odd language here in Washington because it's like he's making an effort to show. Oh, well, I don't really want to do this, but I have to because there's a subpoena to issue a.

Church Leaders Submit Affidavits for the Defense

Radio Free Mormon [01:14:05] A declaration. Okay. Anyway, number one, my name is Randall Thomas and I make this declaration. Oh, he says it again in response to a subpoena. That's how important it is. We're going to say it twice. Lawyers never repeat themselves. No. Make this declaration. Response to a subpoena from the defendant, Michael Davis. 2. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and at the time Michael Davis attended our church, I was in the capacity of state president of the Rochester, Minnesota State. 3. Michael Davis held the role. The role.

Radio Free Mormon [01:14:34] That's not very LDS language, is it? Yeah, he held the role of Elder Scorm president. I would think it would be. I don't know, the calling.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:47] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:14:47] So we want to get away from it being calling. By the way, this is very artfully worded and I don't know if the. First off, it's. It's clear that somebody else wrote this for at least one of these gentlemen and probably.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:59] We have an email word for word.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:01] Go ahead.

Michael Benjamin [01:15:02] We.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:02] We have an email by a 70 who admitted to Michael Benjamin that the stake president and the branch president were counseled by church lawyers. Is that right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:16] Yes, but that. That makes a lot of sense to me because this is being drafted in such a way as to distance the church as much as possible from any civil liability. Because what's going on here is that.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:31] Well, let me read the rest of it. Okay. And I'll tell you what here. What's going on here. Michael Davis held the role of elders quorum president. His duties associated with being the elders quorum president did not generally involve direct supervision or participation with minors at the church. 4. I am unaware of any supervisory or leadership positions the defendant has ever had in our church wherein he would have been in a position of direct authority over minors.

Radio Free Mormon [01:16:01] Number five. Accordingly, I do not believe that the defendant would ever have been. Would have ever been in a position of direct authority over minors. And that's the last paragraph. It ends with, I declare under penalty of perjury that everything I've stated in this document is true and correct. That's a big load of nothing, really. All it's saying is, I don't have any direct knowledge of whether this person had any authority over minors, but it didn't generally involve it. I'm unaware of any supervisory position over minors, and therefore I do not believe that the defendant would have ever been in a position of direct authority over minors.

Radio Free Mormon [01:16:40] It's not a surprise to me that these declarations which mirror each other didn't really do the trick on the second time this motion to dismiss was brought.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:51] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:16:52] But it looks to me like these are. These are drafted in such a way as to try and distance the church from the actions that were done by the defendant here in order to protect them from civil liability. So actually, I don't see the church coming in on the side of the accused at that time. Now convicted the. Because that was last Friday he was convicted.

Michael Benjamin [01:17:15] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:17:17] I don't see them coming in on his side in order to come in on his side. I see them coming in on his side because here their interests align. And the fact that the prosecutor has charged all these counts as a position of authority. Let me back up here and just make this clear. I think it probably is to most people. You don't have to be in a position of authority over somebody to make what was alleged here illegal. Yeah, it's still against the law to do that. If you're older than a 13 year old, more than 48 months older in Minnesota, apparently, and you do this kind of stuff with a 13 year old. Yeah, it's against the law. It's just that if you're in a position of authority over this 13 year old and you do what you did, then it's a more serious felony.

Michael Benjamin [01:18:08] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:18:09] So I just wanted to mention that. So what they're trying to say is, okay, position of authority has been alleged and now we're bringing in these declarations from the branch president, stake president, say, hey, there is no position of authority here as much as they're able to. And I think these are very weak sauce kind of declarations. But they're trying to distance the church, saying he wasn't. The child was not under the direct authority of Michael Davis, the Elders Quorum president, because if he were under his direct authority, then the church is liable civilly in a subsequent lawsuit.

John Dehlin [01:18:46] And I think that's key. And so if it's okay, rfm, I want to ask a quick question and ask you to speculate, which I know you don't like to do, but given that you have experience in this sort of thing, how do we imagine this conversation Happens where the stake president calls Kurt McConkey. What is the conversation that happens that leads to a Mormon stake president and a Mormon branch president joining the defense team with sworn affidavits trying to help the defendant's case be successful? The tell us how that conversation might happen because that blows me away. That like special witnesses of Christ or special leaders who represent Christ are ending up on the legal team of a known sexual predator to try and keep a successful prosecution from happening. How does that happen?

Radio Free Mormon [01:19:42] Well, if I'm the defense. If I'm the defense attorney, I think it was Thomas Brown was the individual who was representing Michael D. Davis. If I'm the defense attorney and I'm in this position, I'm reaching out to the branch president and I'm reaching out to the stake president to see if I can find any information from them that will help my case. And then I'm the one trying to get declarations from them and hopefully they'd be better than these. But regardless, I expect that this was as good as Thomas Brown could get them to sign their names to. So.

John Dehlin [01:20:13] So the defense attorneys, let's speculate, is reaching out to the stake president and the branch president saying, hey, I want to get a lower sentence for my client.

Radio Free Mormon [01:20:22] I want to get the charges dismissed.

John Dehlin [01:20:24] I want to get the charges dismissed. Which is awful. Or a lower sentence.

Radio Free Mormon [01:20:28] Let me tell you. It's a great feeling.

John Dehlin [01:20:30] Yeah. If you're on that side. I mean, it's funny and it's dark, right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:20:37] Oh, yes, very dark.

John Dehlin [01:20:39] I mean, I. I understand the, the legal. The kind of. The attorney perspective, rfm. But then it gets really sobering when we're talking about a kid who's being sexually abused. Right. And we're trying to get, from the kids and the parents perspective, we're trying to get the. The perpetrator off, right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:21:00] Yeah, absolutely. So here's how I imagine it happening. Defense attorney contacts branch president, defense attorney contacts state president, wants to get a declaration, stake president, branch president get together, they get concerned. So they call their upline to find out what it is that they should do.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] Hotline, right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:21:20] Well, no. Well, maybe, but they called to their area authority and then eventually they get put in contact with them, I would imagine. So then the discussions are had as to what they are able to say, how they should say it, and it really looks like the church is being distanced. I mean, why would they write he had the role of elder Scorm president? It's only to avoid saying he had the calling of Elder Scorp President. Because when you put calling in there, well, who called him? Right, right. Okay. So that seems to be really obvious to me. That's like in red neon. So that's how I would speculate that this happened.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] So Kurt mcconi says, all right, stake president and branch president cooperate with the defense attorney. Here's the, here's the boilerplate text for the. Because they've done a million of these. Here's the boilerplate text for the affidavit. You, you both need to sign. We curtin a conkey approve this and now this could be filed as a part of the defense team. Right. To help get the perpetrator off of a conviction.

Radio Free Mormon [01:22:29] These declarations are not designed to get the perpetrator off. They're designed to protect the church. I was emphasizing certain words in these five paragraph declarations. And I'll do it again here so you can understand how weak these are. They're very weak on protecting Michael Davis. They're very strong on protecting the church.

Radio Free Mormon [01:22:51] Paragraph three, Michael Davis, elders quorum president, did not generally involve direct supervision. See, that did not generally. Well, if it's generally, there are exceptions because it's not a rule, it's just generally right. Number four, I am unaware of any supervisory or leadership positions that he had over minors. And number five, accordingly, I do not believe that the defendant would have ever been in a position of direct authority over minors. I mean, why is the state president, I understand because he's, you know, doing his stake stuff and he's not always going to be in the branch. But you've got the branch president who's Brent Larsen, who signs an identical declaration to the one I just read. And why doesn't he have anything more factual that is better for the defense than just this kind of mealy mouth garbage?

Michael Benjamin [01:23:48] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:48] You would think that the branch president would know more, right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:23:52] Yes, yes. He's on the ground. He can see all this stuff. And apparently, I mean, there are some times when you don't want your witness to say everything they know because it doesn't help you. But I noticed that there's nothing in this document that talks about him being so concerned about this victim spending time with Michael Davis that he talked to his parents about it.

Guest [01:24:13] That was my thought too.

Michael Benjamin [01:24:14] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:24:15] Yeah.

Guest [01:24:15] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:24:17] So this is, this may be the truth, but it's not the whole truth.

Michael Benjamin [01:24:21] And even though these were written to protect the church, they were still used by the defense attorney to try to get the case dismissed. Right. So they were the key kind of components of the defense Attorneys pleading of the, you know, of the, of the court to have these, these, this case dismissed.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:40] And in fact the branch president ends up being in the defense witness list.

Michael Benjamin [01:24:45] Right, right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:46] As one of the witnesses that would, that could have been called by the defense lawyers.

Michael Benjamin [01:24:54] The other thing that concerns me, and I don't know if this is what you were getting at John, about this moment in, in the trial or the, the court case is when the defense attorney reached out to the branch president and the stake president to ask for these affidavits. Why didn't they say like, no, we can't, we can't say that he wasn't in a position of authority. We know that he was in contact with youth on temple trips. We know he was in contact with youth, you know, helping to prepare the sacrament and pass the sacrament. We know he had made this Book of Mormon reading challenge and told the defense attorney, we can't, we can't testify to the fact that he wasn't in a position of authority because he, he kind of was.

Michael Benjamin [01:25:34] Right? He, he was interacting with youth and, and that's, that was a concern for me is, you know, morally, how come they didn't take that higher ground and stand up for the victim and say, no, we're gonna, we're gonna testify for the victim and support the victim and not, not the, the offender.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] Yeah. Like I was just wondering whether this branch president affidavit is just flat out dishonest. Right?

Michael Benjamin [01:26:00] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:01] The branch president was misleading and, or lying in, in this affidavit knowing better. But then I also, I can't resist mentioning the idea that exact honesty is required when a 14 year old boy or girl has to talk about their sexual practices to a grown man bishop behind closed doors. That's when exact honesty is important. But when the church is trying to protect its good name and its treasure, then exact honesty is, is more flexible and you can mislead or deceive or use clever wording or pay the right attorneys to prevent you from being fully honest when, when the church's interests are at stake, it feels hypocritical. It's not the exact honesty I was taught as a Mormon. Right.

Michael Benjamin [01:26:51] Yeah. And rfm, you brought up a good point, you know, with the branch president's affidavit is. Yeah. If he did have all these concerns about their inappropriate relationship, why didn't that come out? Right? Why didn't he speak to that in his affidavit that they were spending too much time together and that, that Michael Davis was You know, in this position of authority or mentorship over. Over this young man.

Radio Free Mormon [01:27:15] Yeah, the branch president's really on the hot seat with that additional fact because he signed off on this. You can read this. And you're not really going to find a fact in this affidavit. And that's what it's supposed to contain.

Michael Benjamin [01:27:27] Yeah, these.

Radio Free Mormon [01:27:28] This really doesn't have anything by way of facts. It's just generally and not aware of. And it's my belief. Yeah, but I also think, I mean, once they, once they presented this from the. The branch president especially and the state president, they've already identified these people for the prosecution. I'm not sure why they didn't send out a detective to interview both of these people. But of course, they didn't need it. They won. So, you know, who am I to criticize?

John Dehlin [01:27:53] Well, I also wanted to state the obvious, that if the church starts with the premise that it's against abuse of any kind and that it supports obeying, honoring and sustaining the law, you would think the church would have an interest in the. In the plaintiff getting justice against the defendant, that they would want the legal processes to. To result in the defendant serving time and being punished for the abuse that the church claims to be against. The church wouldn't be aiding the defense to get the case excused so that justice couldn't be served. Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:28:29] No, you're right. And can I contrast this with the church's policy when it comes to two members of the ward getting divorced?

John Dehlin [01:28:38] Sure.

Radio Free Mormon [01:28:39] You know what the policy is, right?

John Dehlin [01:28:40] Tell us.

Radio Free Mormon [01:28:41] You don't get involved with the, the criminal. Excuse me, the criminal. With the divorce case, you don't get involved one side or the other. That's the policy of the church. And so here you've got a criminal case which is between a member of the church and against another member of the church. And apparently that policy is not going to apply in this situation, at least in Minnesota.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:03] Wow.

Michael Benjamin [01:29:03] 1 Gerardo, you have the letter from the First Presidency that. Yeah. Has a similar statement. Right. That. That tells leaders to not get involved in. In legal matters of church members. I think that's one of the, the slides as well.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] Yeah. Yeah. So what? So, okay, so we've got the affidavits. Where should we go next? Should we go to the General authority?

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:25] So, yeah, this is just to show. This is an email from Elder Kerr from an Area 70.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Jeffrey J. Kerr.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:35] In Area 70. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:37] And he writes to Benjamin because I think Michael Benjamin was asking him about, you know, you can tell the Story pro.

Michael Benjamin [01:29:47] Yeah, I was. I was reaching out to higher ups, just trying to understand why did the branch president and sick president, why are they involved in this legal matter? When leaders are told not to be involved, why did they submit these affidavits? You know, how did this come to be? So he. He actually responded to me, which I appreciated, and. And confirmed, as you see there. And he actually gets the. The bishop's name wrong. It's Bishop Larsen. Not Bishop Fleming. Bishop Fleming.

Radio Free Mormon [01:30:15] And he's a branch president.

Michael Benjamin [01:30:16] And he's a branch president. Yeah. Bishop Fleming was my. My bishop, so I think he was getting confused. So he says President Thomas, and it should be branch President Larsen have followed the direction of church legal counsel in the matter you reference. And the matter that I referenced was the affidavits that they submitted.

Radio Free Mormon [01:30:32] It's always nice when somebody's writing something to protect two individuals and ends up throwing legal counsel for the church under the bus.

Michael Benjamin [01:30:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] Really, really quickly. I. Michael, if it's okay. Like, I'm reading this email from Jeffrey J. Kerr, Area Authority, the Church Jesus Christ. He goes on to write. I've also visited with the stake president about your access to church resources. Your local leaders have previously explained the reason you do not currently have access to church resources. You will need to continue to work with your local leaders to address this matter. Can you tell us what's going on there?

Michael Benjamin [01:31:09] Yeah. So that's a great segue into. So after these affidavits were submitted to the court, I sent out an email. So the. The branch president from the Casson branch got. I don't know if he got released because of what was happening or if it was just his time to be released. Anyway, he got released and was moved over to our ward because he's actually a member of our ward. So he got moved over to our ward and was put in a calling as a youth Sunday school teacher in our ward. And I had some serious concerns about that. I. I had concerns that we have.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:50] In your word, Michael.

Michael Benjamin [01:31:51] In my word? Yep. Oh, wow.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:53] Okay.

Michael Benjamin [01:31:54] So I had some concerns that we have a leader who is still actively involved in this sex abuse case.

Guest [01:32:01] Right.

Michael Benjamin [01:32:01] He. He submitted an affidavit. He's a. He's a witness. So that was one concern I had. I had another concern that he was, you know, defending a sexual perpetrator. And I didn't think it was appropriate for someone who was still involved in this legal matter and defending a sexual perpetrator to be teaching a youth Sunday school class. So I Emailed the parents of that youth Sunday school class just informing them of the case that was going on, of the fact that he had submitted this affidavit.

Radio Free Mormon [01:32:32] How did you get their emails, Michael?

Michael Benjamin [01:32:34] Through the, through the online church directory. Yeah. And I. It was very short, just very in factual, Just gave them the facts so they were aware of what was going on. I didn't, you know, badmouth anybody. I wasn't negative in, in my email. I just wanted to inform them and, and bring some awareness to what was happening and then they could make their own decision about, you know, what, what they wanted to do.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] What's your logic there, Michael? Why, why would you be concerned? It's the former branch president. Right?

Michael Benjamin [01:33:06] Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] Why would you be concerned? Or why would you think a parent might be concerned? I mean, so you're saying that if the former branch president is teaching children and also simultaneously helping to defend an accused sexual abuser, what might happen to the kids?

Michael Benjamin [01:33:26] I don't know if anything would happen to them. I just didn't think it was appropriate for, for him to be teaching youth in, in that particular moment and still being involved in this legal case. I didn't, I didn't have any concern that he was going to do anything. I just didn't think showed.

John Dehlin [01:33:41] Well, are you saying it's morally bankrupt to def. To like. Yeah, yeah, I think there's a lack of character.

Michael Benjamin [01:33:50] Yeah. And so I, I don't think it was just good for him to be doing that under the circumstances. Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] You were mad. Maybe you felt angry that a, That a church leader would be siding with a. On the defense team of a sexual predator.

Michael Benjamin [01:34:08] Yeah, I was concerned. And, and if anything, you know, let's, let's not have him have a calling. Right. Until this whole matter is over.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:17] Think about this too, John. Like this. Affidavits that the branch press, former friend, branch president, state president submitted were literally used to like, get the whole case dismissed. Like whatever the branch president signed and submitted would have, could have, or had the potential to, at least in the defense view, to completely drop the charges against an abuser. So I would be concerned too, I think.

Michael Benjamin [01:34:52] So I sent that email July 21, 2021. On July 23, 2021, the stake president calls Salt Lake headquarters and has my membership record completely suspended and deactivated. I didn't realize it, though, until July 25, 2021, because I went into. I don't know if I think I was looking up a Sunday school lesson or something for a Sunday school class. I mean,

John Dehlin [01:35:26] talk to you first.

Michael Benjamin [01:35:27] No, there was no. No conversation with me. No telling me, hey, I didn't appreciate the email you sent. You know, will you stop doing that? Stop sending emails. There was no.

John Dehlin [01:35:38] Why? Here's why. I wouldn't want you to do that.

Michael Benjamin [01:35:40] Right. Yep.

Guest [01:35:44] That's still using it for a purpose within the church. Like, it's still, like, you weren't, like, taking their emails and giving them to some MLM or whatever. Like, here, let me help you protect your children.

Radio Free Mormon [01:36:04] Right.

Guest [01:36:05] You know, let me give you the information and you make a judgment call as a parent of your child. You know, it wasn't. You weren't misusing them, I guess, is what I'm saying. You weren't using them.

Michael Benjamin Faces Church Discipline

Michael Benjamin [01:36:16] Right. But that's. Their claim is that I misused. Yeah, yeah. That I misused church resources.

Guest [01:36:22] It's not a misuse.

Michael Benjamin [01:36:23] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:36:24] For that reason. Yeah. This is a big stay in your lane move by the church.

Michael Benjamin [01:36:28] Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, there was no. There was no warning. There was no conversation with me. There was no, you know, hey, stop doing that. But I. So on July 25, 2021, I was logging in to read a Sunday school lesson because, you know, I'm still. Even though I said earlier, you know, I'm not an active member, I still participate in and do things within the church. So I was trying to log in and it kept coming up that my password wasn't working or it just wasn't. It wasn't working. And so I kept trying, and then I tried to reset my password. And eventually it came up that my membership record couldn't even be found. It said, your membership record is not available or not found. Please contact. I can't remember if it said tech support or church headquarters or something to that effect.

John Dehlin [01:37:15] I mean, that's the type of thing they do when they excommunicate you, is they. They shut down your LDS Tools account. So they're treating you like an apostate at that point.

Michael Benjamin [01:37:23] Right. Without any of the formal action of doing so. Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:27] And without even talking to you.

Michael Benjamin [01:37:28] Like, that's. So then for several weeks and months, it felt like I was calling church headquarters, trying to figure out what happened. Well, and so that's how I found out they had. He had suspended my account. As I called church headquarters and they let me know. They, you know, I was literally on the phone for, like, hours with different people. They kept passing me around trying to figure out what had happened. And then finally I got to somebody and they looked in some sort of note and said, oh, yeah, it looks like here your stake president suspended your. Your account. You'll have to talk with him and to get it.

Michael Benjamin [01:38:00] To get it resolved. And for months, I tried reaching out to him, you know, emailing him, asking, hey, can we talk about this? Can I please get my membership record account reinstated? You know, because it has all my notes and my journals, you know, my family history. They're all. All those accounts are connected right now. And so I just wanted that back. I wanted to be able to, you know, do work on family history and look at my notes and things like that. And there was never any response. The only response I got was from the state clerk saying, stake president has already told you that, you know, why your church, why you have no access to the LDS tools. And, and just. It was a very blanket statement. It didn't really help me get anything back.

John Dehlin [01:38:48] But he hadn't talked to you?

Michael Benjamin [01:38:50] Well, he had. Sorry. Do you have the. The email, Gerardo? Is that one of the slides I gave you?

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:57] No, this is just. This is. No, I don't have an email from here.

Michael Benjamin [01:39:02] I think I have it here. So. He says the use of church resources, including private member information, is a privilege. If members of the church misuse that privilege, access to those resources may be discontinued. Because you inappropriately use confidential email address information for member tools to send an inaccurate and defamatory message, which is not true because it wasn't inaccurate and it wasn't defamatory. Your access to membership resources has been deactivated. So that was, I guess, the. When he, through the state clerk, let me know why it had been deactivated.

Radio Free Mormon [01:39:36] What is the date of that email, Michael?

Michael Benjamin [01:39:38] July 26th.

Radio Free Mormon [01:39:40] Okay, so it's just five days later.

Michael Benjamin [01:39:42] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] Inaccurate and defamatory

Guest [01:39:49] and a misuse of church emails, which.

Michael Benjamin [01:39:53] Right.

Guest [01:39:55] Not true.

Michael Benjamin [01:39:56] So that's what. That's what Elder Kerr is referring to in his email. Because I had gone up the chain trying to just resolve the situation just because I wasn't getting any. Any response from anybody. And so I was trying to just resolve and. And get my personal property back. Did you reply to this email to Elder Kerr?

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:17] No.

Radio Free Mormon [01:40:17] To the state president?

Michael Benjamin [01:40:19] Yeah. Yeah. I replied saying, you know, that. I understand that that's what, you know, you think, but can we please have a conversation about what, you know, how do I need to get this back? What needs to happen? I think I said in one email as well, you know, how are you taking these actions against me if we haven't talked? Right. If we haven't had a. If you're taking actions against me. Why isn't there a disciplinary council or something to that effect? And I, I just felt very ghosted by everybody. There was just never any response. So that.

Radio Free Mormon [01:40:54] So there was never any response to your reply to the state president.

Michael Benjamin [01:40:59] Correct.

Radio Free Mormon [01:41:01] From the state president, Right.

John Dehlin [01:41:05] Yeah. Because, I mean, lawyers are going to say, just don't give him any rope, you know, to hang you with. Like, stay away from them, stay silent. They're going to be advising the stake president to not interact with you. But it just seems really weird that this guy is like a, an ecclesiastical leader. He's supposed to have pastoral concern for his flock and he's not, he's. He's accusing you of being defamatory, of being misleading, of misusing things, but he won't even sit down with you and have a conversation about what was defamatory, what was untrue, and how does it qualify as misuse. He just ghosts you.

Guest [01:41:48] Yeah.

Michael Benjamin [01:41:49] Yeah. Takes away the membership access and doesn't explain why and doesn't say what I need to do to get it back eventually later on, I guess, rfm, he does. And I'd have to find that email, but that was, it was like months later after repeated emails to him. Basically states that there needs to be time that passes and other things that need to happen before I can get it back, but never ever specific about what, what needs to happen for me to get my, my membership access back, or at least the, the property that the membership account contains.

Radio Free Mormon [01:42:26] Did you eventually file a lawsuit against the church?

Michael Benjamin [01:42:29] I did. So that's what I was getting at. So after months and months of all of that, I. So that was, let's see, July. We have to look at my notes here because a lot has happened. So that was July of 2021, and then in March of 2022. Well, sorry, in January, end of January 2022, I served the stake presidency with summons and civil complaint.

John Dehlin [01:43:03] And then you mentioned in your notes that you were told you were an apostasy. Have you talked to us about that?

Michael Benjamin [01:43:10] I haven't. So I think that you have that

John Dehlin [01:43:15] after the email from the stake presidency in the timeline between July and November.

Michael Benjamin [01:43:20] Yeah. So over the years. So I guess it goes back to November of 2015, where the exclusion policy came out. That's where my shelf started to kind of break. And so ever since then, I have been vocal about concerns that I've had with church leadership and the exclusion policy and different questions and things that I've had. And so because of those Facebook posts and Even in church public questions that I've raised, both my bishop and stake presidency have told me that I'm in apostasy and that I needed to change what I was doing. But again, I've never been called into a disciplinary council, never been disfellowshipped, excommunicated, despite them repeatedly telling me, you're an apostasy. Stop saying these things, stop posting these things.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] So weird. Because they rescinded the exclusion policy. So you were speaking out against the policy that they themselves now oppose and rescinded, and somehow that qualifies as apostasy.

Michael Benjamin [01:44:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:44:31] Like, I know, I know Mormon apostles today that were opposed to the exclusion policy. Were they an apostasy?

Radio Free Mormon [01:44:40] Part of what's going on here, I think, also gets into this other aspect of the culture of secrecy in the LDS Church. And while they're doing this over here in the court case, they don't want the general membership to know about it, even though these are public record documents, because they're filed in the court case. That's how I got these myself. Anybody could go there and find them if they know to go there and find them, but they don't want the membership to know about it. So when you did that, you were threatening this culture of secrecy and their authority to determine what the members will know at the same time.

Michael Benjamin [01:45:15] Right, right. So, yeah, so that led to filing a civil suit against the state presidency because they're essentially the ones who disabled my account and everything that my account contains, and so serve them in end of January.

John Dehlin [01:45:33] The cause you wanted your private property?

Michael Benjamin [01:45:35] Basically, Yeah, I just wanted. I wanted my access to my family history, my notes, you know, my, my journal entries, all of the stuff that the, the membership account contains. And so I filed the lawsuit in March formally. And then interestingly, and this also boggles my mind is once I. Once they were served and the suit was in action in the court, they got their own attorneys to fight the lawsuit instead of, again, instead of trying to work it out with me or say, hey, let's talk, let's work this out of court.

Michael Benjamin [01:46:14] They actually hired a private attorney to fight me in court, which really surprised me. But fortunately their attorney was a super nice guy and I felt like really kind of understood where I was coming from and was able to work with me and with them, and we were able to kind of settle out of court. Basically, we stipulated the case and I mean, still in the process of getting my information back in my notes and my journals and things like that. But it's sad that it took that. Right. It took me filing a lawsuit in court to, to get some sort of action done.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:54] Yeah.

Michael Benjamin [01:46:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] Okay. All right.

Handbook Policies and Accountability

Michael Benjamin [01:47:02] So the case. Back to the case. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:05] So the, the general authority, the area authority email that we shared, the basic point of that is, is that the area Authority is acknowledging that church legal counsel is deeply involved in this entire case. Is that the main point of this email?

Michael Benjamin [01:47:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] Yes. Okay. All right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:22] This is the motion to dismiss. Okay. That's what it's called, right? Rfm?

Radio Free Mormon [01:47:29] Yes, that's what it is. It's called an omnibus order for whatever reason in Minnesota, we wouldn't call it that here, but yeah, it's a motion to decide dismiss.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:36] And this is where in mansion the defense attorney mentions the affidavits and how important they are into this argument.

Radio Free Mormon [01:47:48] We better be calling them important because that's the only difference between this motion and the same motion that was brought earlier in 2020 is the addition of these two affidavits.

Michael Benjamin [01:47:57] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:00] And

John Dehlin [01:48:02] what's the purpose of the document?

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:04] You want to just. Oh, rfm. Do you want to explain it?

Radio Free Mormon [01:48:08] Well, it says a motion to dismiss, by the way. Let me just clarify something that may be a bit hazy at this point. There's four counts ultimately, by the time it goes to trial, there's four counts of child sex abuse under different. Well, there's basically two that are penetration and two that are sexual contact. Okay. But they're all involving this 13 year old at time, this victim. So they're all filed as Michael Davis being in a position of authority over this kid.

Radio Free Mormon [01:48:38] And they didn't have to do that if, let's say, the heavens opened and the sun shone down and smiled upon the defense counsel in this case. And the judge granted the motion to dismiss all four of these charges because there wasn't enough evidence to go to a jury on the issue of position of authority. That didn't happen. But if it had all the. It's. It's not. The guy walks free. The prosecutor just turns around and files an amended information or a new information charging all the same crimes, but just without the position of authority part. So they'd be lesser felonies, but still very serious. So it's not like he's going to walk free.

Radio Free Mormon [01:49:19] So the thing I don't understand is why the prosecutor decided to put all their eggs in the same basket of position of authority. Now they did and they won and we'll see what happens on appeal. But it's very skinny on this issue. And I would have thought that If I'd been the prosecutor, and different attorneys do things differently. And so I'm not trying to, you know, criticize too much, but they can charge four counts under position of authority, which are the more serious felonies, and then they can in the alternative charge the same four counts without the position of authority language. All right, and all I'm saying is if it goes up on appeal now and the court of appeals says no, there wasn't enough evidence of position of authority, which is the issue in this case, and that's why these motions were brought, it's very evident this is the issue.

Radio Free Mormon [01:50:16] And if they say no, there wasn't enough, then all four of those convictions. There's a fifth one, excuse me, that doesn't involve that. But all four of those convictions, the serious charges, they get dismissed. And now it goes back down to the trial court. They're going to have to have another trial. Whereas if the prosecutor had done what would be more standard operating procedure, I think, and charge all four here and all four without the positions of authority, then he gets sentenced on these four, it goes up on appeal, and let's say they all get dismissed. Okay, well, you still got these four that you have convictions for, so you don't have to retry the case.

Radio Free Mormon [01:50:54] It just gets sent back for resentencing. But we'll see if. I mean, the prosecutor put all their eggs in this basket and they went at trial, they defeated the motion, they went to trial, they got the jury to agree. Now we'll see what happens on appeal.

John Dehlin [01:51:11] Okay. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:16] So this document, I just shows how the defense attorney was using the affidavits from the. I mean, do you want to read what's highlighted? I think it's pretty self explanatory. John, do you want to read it?

John Dehlin [01:51:29] Defendant submitted two affidavits from church leadership. Brett Larsen was the branch president of the Cason Ward, Casson Cassin Ward. At the alleged offense, Mr. Larsen testified by way of affidavit and stated that defendants duties as elders quorum president did not involve direct supervision or participation with minors. Similarly, Mr. Randall Thomas, who was the stake president of the Rochester, Minnesota stake, also confirmed that defendant was not in a supervisory role or had any official capacity over children at the church.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:10] And then at the end, there's the

Radio Free Mormon [01:52:12] conclusion, which by the way, is not exactly what the declarations say. And I expect the judge noticed that difference.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:19] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:21] And then at the end it says, nothing in this record demonstrates that David was in a position of authority over the alleged victim at the time of the perpetrated offense, making dismissal of counts one through four appropriate. Okay,

Radio Free Mormon [01:52:39] so, yeah, denied.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:43] So, yeah, this. This was denied by the judge. And then I have a few slides of screenshots of the Handbook of Instructions just on.

Radio Free Mormon [01:52:54] Can I see something else here that strikes me?

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:56] Go ahead.

Radio Free Mormon [01:52:56] Why is it. Why are they just submitting these declarations? Why are these people not called as witnesses? This is almost kabuki theater at this point that we're going through the motions. Because, I mean, the defense can ask for this, but the prosecution doesn't have to agree to that. The prosecution can say, no, you need to call these witnesses in and subject them to cross examination. The fact the prosecutor did not do that is indicative of the fact that the prosecutor did not see these as problematic and that it would not work. And that ended up being correct because the judge saw it the same way.

Michael Benjamin [01:53:28] Yeah. And ended up leaving it to the jury to decide if he was in a position of authority or not. And yeah, yeah, we know the result of that.

Radio Free Mormon [01:53:38] Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] So what does the Church Handbook of Instruction say, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:42] This. These are just a few screenshots I thought were important to show just about how important Elders Quorum precedents are in branches and. Or words. And this one is about presiding at sacrament meeting. And it says that the bishop presides at sacrament meeting unless a member of the stake Presidency in Area 70 in this area or a general authority attends. If the bishop and his counselors are not able to attend sacrament meeting, the stake president designates who presides. Normally he designates the Elders Quorum president. However, he could invite another priesthood holder, preferably a high priest or elder. So basically it just shows, Right. Like how after the bishop counselors, he's

John Dehlin [01:54:25] number four in authority in the war, Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:54:28] He's like the speaker of the House, Right?

John Dehlin [01:54:32] Yep.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:34] And then the next one is about.

John Dehlin [01:54:37] From the 2020 Church Handbook of Instructions, Section 8.3.3. Go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:43] Elder Squirm Presidency. The Elder Scorm president has the following responsibilities. And it says through his service, the elder scoring president supports the bishop in focusing on the youth and on the bishop's unique responsibility.

John Dehlin [01:54:58] That's huge.

Michael Benjamin [01:54:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:00] How is that not huge? Like it's there.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:04] I thought that was huge. Yeah.

Guest [01:55:07] Yeah. Why doesn't they're affidavit say that it's a.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:10] Again, elder scoring precedent supports the bishop in focusing on the youth.

John Dehlin [01:55:16] Yeah. That is just as clear as day.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:20] That makes those two affidavits, like lying, deceitful.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:55:25] Doesn't it?

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:26] In My, in my view.

Guest [01:55:28] Yeah. Mind you, my.

John Dehlin [01:55:29] Kurt McConkey. Kurt McConkey knows these rules. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:33] They, I, I'm sure they do.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] So that's like a, I mean that's, you know, the rfm, you know, the Liar Liar Pants on Fire bill. Real kind of.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:41] Yes.

Radio Free Mormon [01:55:42] I had nothing to do with that podcast.

John Dehlin [01:55:44] This is, this is Liar Liar Pants on Fire territory.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:47] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:55:48] There is no lie in these declarations. It's because there's no, there's no assertion of fact in the declarations.

John Dehlin [01:55:56] Okay.

Radio Free Mormon [01:55:57] They are remarkable for saying nothing.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] But it's just, it is, it seems very deceitful.

Radio Free Mormon [01:56:03] It's certainly not the whole truth.

John Dehlin [01:56:04] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:05] The next one, this one is an Amendment to the 2010 Handbook of Instruction which was the one that was being used at the current time the abuses happened. And it just talks about. This one talks about priests and teachers which are youth. Right. Continue to serve as ministering companions of Melchizedek priesthood holders. And then it says at the end, Elder Holland explained that ministering brothers and sisters will no longer report monthly visits, but will instead counsel with leaders in a quarterly absolutely critical ministering interview about the needs and strengths of these, of those that they are assigned. So basically just shows how, how the youth has interactions with the Melchizedek priesthood and the one that probably is in charge of the Melchizedekid priesthood. And the word is the Elders Quorum president.

John Dehlin [01:56:59] Yeah, the Elders Quorum president would be the one tracking ministering.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:57:02] Progress. Right. In the ward.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:04] Yeah. From youth. Right.

John Dehlin [01:57:06] So they could be interviewing youth there. Yep, yep.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:10] Next one. Oh, and the title of that is Involved Youth. That's. That's the title of that part. And that's not my title. That's part of the. Anyway, the next one says.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] So this 20002010 handbook.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:25] Yeah, so I have, I made a comparison because he was a bit different from 2010 and then he changed into 2020. So on this one it says on the 2010, which was the one again that was being used at the time the abuse happened, it says Elders Quorum presidency as assigned by the bishop. They work with parents and ironic priesthood quorum advisors to help 17 and 18 year old young men prepare to receive the multi city priesthood progress from the Pre Scorum to the Elder Scorm. And then it looks like in 2020 it changed. So now Elder Scorm precedent, what they're going to be in charge of is only the 19 year olds. It says a prospective elder is a male church member who has not received the Melchizedek priesthood and is either 19 or older or is younger than 19 and married.

John Dehlin [01:58:24] Why is that interesting?

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:26] So kind of interesting that. That the rule changed. Right. It went from being prospective elders from being 17 and 18 to being all 19.

John Dehlin [01:58:37] Okay.

Guest [01:58:40] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:41] And then this last one, this is again from the 2010. The screenshot was taken in 2020. But this is from the 2010amendment to. Sorry, the amendment to the 2010 hammock of instructions.

Radio Free Mormon [01:58:55] But it's not a legalistic religion.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:57] Right. It's under the direction of the bishop. The elders quorum president may be assigned to oversee member missionary work and temple and family history work in the Word, which, you know, temple work involves youth with, I think ended up coming up in the. In the case.

Michael Benjamin [01:59:18] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:18] In the hearing that Michael Davis, the. The abuser would do. Would be in charge of temple trips kind of stuff.

Michael Benjamin [01:59:27] Yeah, yeah. It came out in the victim's testimony that Michael Davis would go with them on temple trips and that the victim would go over to Michael Davis's house after the temple trips and spend a lot of time there and spend overnights at Mr. Davis's house. And then when I testified. So I also testified in the trial for the prosecution, he had me testify to the just basic organization of the church, the hierarchy, the structure, what an elders quorum president is responsible for, what an elders quorum president might do in a branch, you know, what some of his responsibilities might be. And I also mentioned not having heard the victim's testimony, but I also mentioned this point that you just brought up, Gerardo, that elders quorum presidents are responsible for, you know, family history, temple work, you know, organizing temple trips, going on temple trips with youth.

Michael Benjamin [02:00:19] And so I think the fact that those two, you know, my testimony and the victim testimony kind of aligned was very supportive of the fact that he was in a position of authority.

John Dehlin [02:00:29] Yeah. There's no question.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:33] And lastly, this is just a picture of this little Book of Mormon challenge reading challenge that Michael Davis allegedly created for the young men.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] And did you get this from Michael? Michael, do you have anything to say about this?

Michael Benjamin [02:00:52] Yeah, this. This is one of the pieces of evidence that came up in court as, again, evidence for the prosecution that he was interacting with youth, that he had some sort of mentorship role over youth because he created this. This Book of Mormon reading challenge and followed up with the youth and their parents about it.

Radio Free Mormon [02:01:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:12] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:16] And this one is a screenshot or. Yeah, a screenshot of the defendant's witness list. And we highlighted the branch president, his number five, President Larsen.

John Dehlin [02:01:29] I mean, that's just so disgusting.

Guest [02:01:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:35] Why aren't they testifying on behalf of the plaintiff that the abuse was horrible and terrible and this guy should be locked away.

Radio Free Mormon [02:01:43] Why didn't the branch president testify at all?

Michael Benjamin [02:01:48] Yeah, I don't know. He ended up not testifying. I have no idea why.

Radio Free Mormon [02:01:54] Because his testimony would not have been helpful to the defense.

Guest [02:01:58] Maybe because he would either have to tell the truth and say that he was over the youth or he would have to lie under oath. So maybe he grew a conscience, I don't know.

Michael Benjamin [02:02:13] Or his testimony would have contradicted his affidavit.

Guest [02:02:16] Right, right. Exactly. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:20] What I was also thinking is. Yeah, there's some. Because. Because the fact that the bishop, the. The branch president told the parents and, and. And the victim about the inappropriate relationship that he was seeing, that came out. They. That came out in, in the court. In the trial. Right?

John Dehlin [02:02:42] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:43] So my guess is that the bishop would have been asked about that.

Michael Benjamin [02:02:46] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:47] How does that fit with your affidavit that says that he was not right or in charge or in any kind of position over youth. Anyway, so, Michael, I.

Radio Free Mormon [02:03:01] My understanding is that the defendant did not testify at trial. Did the defense put on any witnesses at all?

Michael Benjamin [02:03:07] They only put on one witness. It was a social worker who took like an original abuse report. It was a very short testimony and it really didn't add anything to the case. I think he was.

Radio Free Mormon [02:03:20] Fact. It was a show that not as much was reported initially as ended up being testified to by the victim as far as sexual abuse incidents.

Michael Benjamin [02:03:29] Yeah. And I think he was also trying to point out some discrepancies between the original report and later reports. Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:38] And I think that's. That. That those are all the slides that we have for today.

Verdict, Outcome, and Broader Settlements

John Dehlin [02:03:44] So do you want to tell us how this ended, Michael, and where things are now?

Michael Benjamin [02:03:49] Yeah. So he was found guilty on Friday the. Friday the 13th. Last Friday. The. Apparently the jury only deliberated about four hours. My understanding is they, during their deliberation, wanted to watch the interview that was recorded. So here we do what's called a corner house interview. I think in Utah, when I used to work there as a child protection investigator, they take kids to the children's justice centers and do a interview so that the kids don't have to, you know, testify in court. So the jury wanted to re. Play that. That corner house interview and then. Yeah, in four hours they found him guilty on all charges.

Radio Free Mormon [02:04:32] Are you saying a corner house?

Michael Benjamin [02:04:35] Yep. Corner house. It's just the name of the. The forensic Interview that they, they use here in Minnesota.

Radio Free Mormon [02:04:41] So the confrontation clause of the U. S. Constitution does not apply in Minnesota then?

Michael Benjamin [02:04:46] I don't know.

Radio Free Mormon [02:04:47] Apparently not. This sounds remarkable to me.

Michael Benjamin [02:04:50] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:04:51] But other than that I won't say anything more.

John Dehlin [02:04:55] Yeah. So four hours and, and how many counts? Guilty and how many counts? Four counts. Four counts, yeah.

Michael Benjamin [02:05:05] Five. Then the four felonies and then. Right, yeah, yeah,

John Dehlin [02:05:11] yeah. And so if I'm like, if I'm like trying to check the boxes, we establish the pattern beforehand. Right. It's like was this a repeat offender? Yes. Did the church not have systems in place to weed out repeat offenders from offending again? The church did not prevent the repeat offender from offending again. When the abuse happens, did the church protect the victim or did the church protect the perpetrator? The church cited literally legally. We've had legal documents proving that the church chose the side of the perpetrator over the victim. Right. And punished any whistleblower that dared speak up or try and educate the membership and then tried to silence it and tried to keep all the members from, from knowing about it.

John Dehlin [02:06:07] Like I didn't stack the deck. I didn't intentionally like stack the deck. When I laid out the churches history in these regards. That is literally what I would have said a week ago before I'd never heard of this case. And this case literally does it, Is it missing anything Jen, that you could think of from the pattern? Like what are we missing?

Guest [02:06:30] I don't think anything. I mean unfortunately that's the pattern. That's a very sad pattern.

John Dehlin [02:06:37] I mean the victim literally won in spite of the church's best efforts. The, the victim received justice in spite of the church's best efforts and at the expense of Michael's reputation and status in the church.

Radio Free Mormon [02:06:54] Right.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] Michael Benjamin?

Michael Benjamin [02:06:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] Rfm, what do you think about this?

Radio Free Mormon [02:07:00] I think that the church's interests are probably never going to align with the victim's interests.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:10] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:07:15] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:16] And I, I, I, I just wanted to mention that there was a case in this reminded, this case reminded me to a case that happened recently, a couple, a few months ago in Argentina Cordova. And I think the reason why we haven't heard about in the US because it's everything is in Spanish.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:35] But I think John, you had mentioned me about, about it and, and RFM actually called me one time to ask me if I knew anything about it. I think we talked about it. But I think what was striking on that case was that basically it was a young man's president who abused of young women and the church was able to get church lawyers involved really quickly and go to the mother of the victim and offer her around $43,000 in order for her to sign paperwork.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:19] And on the paperwork in, in the translation for the name of that paperwork, it's called a reparation agreement. Agreement in civil matter. And again it was 4.7 million pesos, Argentinian pesos, that's around $42,000. And the agreement had a series of clauses that according to the prosecutor, where the state prosecutor were deplorable and sinister.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:56] And so among the clauses he stressed that one stands out that prohibits the victim and her family from making any kind of demonstration about the fact or about any other person in the church who could be involved. So basically they can't mention about anyone else being involved in the case, even though the, the bishop was really involved in this one because the bishop was made aware of the abuse before the mother even know about it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:26] And another provision was that the family agrees not to take any action against any other member of the church that may be involved. Basically trying to protect, you know, the church leadership and the church. And this was huge in, in Chile. It happens that in other countries I think.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:49] You can't not get away. Religions can't get away as easy as here in the US with like some of this stuff. So it seems like they're looking to the prosecutor attorney is they are trying to help hold the church accountable for because they, they, they say that this was this paperwork that they made the mom sign was illegal and shouldn't have been allowed anyway. So kind of interesting, you know, how the church operates the same in other countries as well, trying to protect the church and the leadership and its authority over victims.

John Dehlin [02:10:37] Yeah. And, and if, if anyone wants to think that this is just some isolated case of abuse and that this is actually rare in the Mormon Church and that abuse almost never happens. All we have to do is, you know, mention the case from last year. From September 15th. Here's a news article. September 15, 2021 Boy Scouts Mormon Church Reach $1B Settlement with Sex abuse victims where an insurance company agrees to pay 787 million and the Mormon Church agrees to pay $250 million towards the settlement. RFM what, what can we safely conclude from the, the knowledge that the Mormon Church willingly offered to pay $250 million in a child sex abuse settlement. What can we conclude from that?

Radio Free Mormon [02:11:38] I think what we can conclude from that is they did a cost benefit analysis and thought that it was better for them to pay. Did you say 25.

John Dehlin [02:11:49] 250 million.

Radio Free Mormon [02:11:50] 250 million than to go to court and risk being assessed more.

John Dehlin [02:11:56] But does it is underlying that the idea that there are so many cases where the church is likely culpable that they needed to pay a lot, a lot of money to cover their vulnerabilities? You know, as to the, the prevalence of, of child sexual abuse within the church that the church feels liable for is that. I know I'm making mincemeat of that,

Radio Free Mormon [02:12:23] but I'm not sure how many, how many potential claimants there were against the LDS Church. Church. Certainly more than one, but I don't know how many. But I expect what happens is there's sort of a class action lawsuit that gets filed against the Boy Scouts of America and then there's negotiations that go on between the defendant parties and Church of Jesus Christ being one, Catholic Church being another. And they, they talk with the attorneys and they say, can we come up with a number that'll resolve this with everybody in the class and okay, well, this much money and who's going to pay how much? And then everybody has to come to an agreement and then it's signed and it's done and the judge approves and then the newspaper article gets written.

Radio Free Mormon [02:13:00] So all I can say from that, all I can say from that is that the church felt that it was smarter for them to pay 250 million than to not resolve the case.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] But yeah, there's probably more than just a couple cases, right?

Radio Free Mormon [02:13:17] Like probably, yeah, maybe 250. I have no idea. I, I'm not sure as to how many claimants there were against the LDS Church in that.

Final Reflections from the Panel

John Dehlin [02:13:27] Well, Michael, you've been super courageous and generous with your time in both doggedly pursuing this case, but also in, in being willing to talk to us about it. What are any final thoughts that you want to share with us as we're kind of wrapping up today?

Michael Benjamin [02:13:44] You know, I just hope, and I started with this, you know, that my main purpose in speaking out isn't to necessarily speak out about the church or, you know, against the church or against leaders. It's really to try to advocate for a safe place for children within the church and to have changes for, you know, of policies and procedures within the church. I mean, that's, that's my real goal. You know, I'm a social worker at heart. And so my, my heart is always with, with children and protecting children and wanting them to be safe. And so that's my main purpose in speaking out and has been from the beginning I hope that from this case there can be some changes within the church, that we can start mandating background checks even if the states don't require them, that the church within itself will do background checks, that we will follow the mandated reporter laws within the church.

Michael Benjamin [02:14:40] You know, instead of using the church abuse hotline, that leaders will have to, no matter what, call law enforcement or child protection to report abuse and that the church will stop doing the one on one worthiness interviews. Because I feel that's just, you know, a way of grooming children and desensitizing children to feel comfortable, you know, talking about sexually explicit things with older, young or older men and so.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:11] In authority.

Michael Benjamin [02:15:12] In authority, exactly. Yeah. So those are some of my, my final thoughts. You know, I just hope that, you know, this case can, can be an impetus for, for some change.

John Dehlin [02:15:26] And how, how are you feeling now that a guilty verdict has been reached and, you know, how are you feeling? Do you feel vindicated? How do you feel?

Michael Benjamin [02:15:36] Yeah, I, I feel super relieved. Validated. And, and also not only for myself, but for the victims. Right. You know, not only, and not only the victim here in Minnesota, but the, the previous victims in Utah, they never got that guilty verdict because he always took pleas. And so, you know, I think it's, it's, it's vindication for them as well that he finally is going to get jail time for, for his crimes.

John Dehlin [02:16:05] Yeah. And is this, is this had a personal toll on you, Michael? Just.

Michael Benjamin [02:16:12] It has, yeah. I mean, speaking out is hard. You feel alone a lot of the time. There's been people here and there who have been supportive, but it definitely feels lonely at times and has been stressful. And, you know, there's nights that I would stay up, you know, researching things and, and looking into things. But yeah, so it's, it's taken a toll. I wouldn't say a huge one, but it's definitely been stressful over the last few years and kind of lonely.

John Dehlin [02:16:44] Yeah, yeah, it's. I, as someone, I think all of us know a little bit about how you feel speaking out in your community that doesn't like it when people speak out. All of us have felt the impact of losing friends, losing family members, feeling marginalized or estranged or just afraid, knowing you're surrounded by people that don't like what you're saying or doing.

Michael Benjamin [02:17:08] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [02:17:10] Can I underscore something that Michael said, which is this strange situation we have where the church that proclaims itself as has having the gold standard and protecting its children only does background checks on members who Have a supervisory role over children when it's required by state law.

Guest [02:17:33] Exactly.

Michael Benjamin [02:17:34] Which boggles my mind because, you know, any other nonprofit organization, any other, you know, school worker, bus driver, daycare worker, you know, all these other organizations, they're required to do background checks. But church leaders who work with, you know, children and youth don't have to do a background check. It just boggles my mind.

John Dehlin [02:18:00] Any other closing thoughts, rfm, that you want to share?

Radio Free Mormon [02:18:03] No, that's it. I. Michael Benjamin, I think you contacted me back in January or so to talk about this case. I think it's, it's great that it's finally reached a resolution and, you know, I'm looking forward to the appeal. What can I say? It's a spectator sport

Michael Benjamin [02:18:21] and I've appreciated your legal expertise during this conversation. Rfm, it's been great.

Radio Free Mormon [02:18:26] Well, thank you very much and thank you for inviting me, Gerardo at 9:00pm yesterday. Thank you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:32] Glad to be here for making time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:34] Rfm, thanks for coming. Really quickly, before we end, there's a comment from Camille, Camille Jones. We did an episode with Camille on Mormon stories. She was the executive, second executive secretary to several LDs general authorities. She makes the point that many, many call to the quorum of the 70 are lawyers or attorneys or are high level businessmen. And I think we, we know at least a few of the reasons why. Not only is the church literally a half trillion dollar multinational corporation, but the church is always having to clean up messes, legal messes like this. And it's just, it's so helpful to have your top church leaders be attorneys. Like Donnie jokes, right?

Radio Free Mormon [02:19:20] Yeah. Don't overlook the fact that lawyers are the most righteous among us.

John Dehlin [02:19:26] Anyway, shout out to Camille. We love it that you're participating. Jen, any final thoughts you want to share? We're so glad you're here. Anything you want to share?

Guest [02:19:40] No, I pretty much said what I wanted to in the beginning. But yeah, I would say that whether you're, you know, post Mormon, um, active Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints member, um, that you just make it a priority. You, you use your voice. I know it's scary sometimes and there's a fear in doing that, but use your voice in this space.

Guest [02:20:11] At least start here. Everyone who works with children should have a background checked. Check. The ones that don't pass should not be involved with youth at all in any capacity within the church. And those on the sex offender list should be listed and you should know about that within your wards and this should be a priority. It should be a priority of the church. I'm just thinking what if they, you know, did a 180 and everyone you know who was what if they I guess our focus was the victim.

Guest [02:20:55] You know, what, what kind of church would that be? What kind of example would that be? What kind of affidavit would that be? What kind of change would that be? And I think that that's where the focus should be. It should be children. It should be telling the truth and it should be doing everything that's in their power and they have a lot of power and they have a lot of money and they have enough resources to make it safe. So them not doing that, it says a lot to me.

John Dehlin [02:21:42] Yeah. Both Maven and Camille basically highlighted rfm your comment that the church's interests will probably never align with the victim's interests. And I would also add the children's interests as maybe the quote of the evening. So thanks shout out to Maven for for joining us tonight. Also Maven's two part story is going to be released on Mormon stories tomorrow. Tomorrow and and the next day, right?

Guest [02:22:11] Yeah, the next day.

John Dehlin [02:22:12] Love you Maven. And check tune in tomorrow for Maven's awesome Mormon story. Gerardo, we want to give you a chance to give any closing thoughts or feelings you have since you brought this to us.

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:23] Yeah, well I'm glad we covered it. Thank you Michael for all your work on this. Thanks RFM for taking that last minute invitation and for all you the reading you did for this and yeah we hope the church changes its policies and it's kind it's sad that the church has included on as one of the definitions of apostasy that you cannot be against church policies. That was not that used to not be part of the definition of apostasy. But so how it's hard for how can members really instigate for change if they can't oppose any kind of policy of the church? You know, it's hard. It requires like brave people like Michael who are willing to take a risk and be called apostates and be labeled with that brand for this stuff to come to light. And yeah. So well thanks everyone for for watching

Closing Remarks and Survivor Voices

John Dehlin [02:23:35] and and we'll share the comment from Colby Reddish who who will be sharing his story him and his wife's story in the show notes Colby, we we really should end with this. Colby says it it local courage can be contagious and members have the power if they wake up And I think that's right.

John Dehlin [02:23:56] That's whether whether that's You, Michael or Colby and his dear wife or any of you out there listening. If members speak up, if members ask for background checks. If members call leaders out when they're misbehaving. If members write their bishops and stake presidents and area authorities and say make bishops mandatory, mandatory reporters, have background checks for all leaders.

John Dehlin [02:24:25] Stop protecting the abusers. Start protecting the victims. Stop silencing whistleblowers. Stop paying off and. And settling with hush money. Improve your computer systems to track these predators, excommunicate them and mark them for life so that they can't repeat offenders. If members were to wake up and agitate for change and speak out and be vocal instead of going silent and, and most importantly, speaking out against this egregious idea that the atonement somehow fixes a sexual predator and, and should compel a victim to forgive immediately and stay quiet. We gotta fix this toxic atonement doctrine that really is at the core, along with the idea that priesthood authority should reign supreme, that it should never be questioned, and that it must be protected at all costs along with the church's wealth and its reputation.

John Dehlin [02:25:31] The Mormon Church needs to just back off its outrageous claims to priesthood authority and its prioritization of the church's reputation and if its bank accounts and assets over victims. So anyway, that's my, that's my rant. Thank you, Michael Benjamin.

Michael Benjamin [02:25:50] Thank you for having me and for, yeah, bringing attention to this case.

John Dehlin [02:25:54] Thank you, Radio Free Mormon. Please check out Radio Freemormon at radiofreemormon.com if you love radio Free Mormon like we do, donate money to him and his cause and also follow Mormonism Live, which is every Wednesday night at 6:20 on YouTube and donate to Mormonism Live support Bill Real and that amazing programming. Radio Free Mormon, we love you.

Radio Free Mormon [02:26:16] I love you too. John

John Dehlin [02:26:19] and Gerardo, it's great to have you on board. Thank you so much, Gerardo, for all you do for us.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:24] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:26:25] And Jen, it's great to have you on board.

Guest [02:26:27] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:26:28] Yeah, it would not be an A plus programming without you. It'd be like a B at best. You take us, you take this, you took this sausage fest from a B to an A plus.

Guest [02:26:40] Oh, thanks. Easily. You're nice.

John Dehlin [02:26:43] Yeah. Thanks for joining us. All right. And listeners and viewers, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We appreciate all the support. We, we couldn't do this without your support. So if you value this type of programming, please become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org and thanks to everyone who supports us. You can also support us by writing a positive review on the Apple Podcast app or on Spotify, by following us on all the social media platforms, and by sharing this content wherever you can with whoever you think share this share this interview, this panel discussion with your bishop or with your stake president, if you're in a position to do so, or with your area authority or general authority.

John Dehlin [02:27:22] Like maybe that will help. We also just really appreciate your feedback, so email us@mormonstoriesmail.com or comment here on YouTube or on Facebook or on the blog. We we love your feedback. And if you've got great stories that you think need to be told on Mormon Stories, we always are excited to hear from you. So thanks everyone. Take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Stay tuned tomorrow for Maven Part one and then the next day for Maven Part two. Take care everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.