Warren Driggs is a part-time attorney and author of several books including “Mormon Boy: A Memoir” and “Swimming in Deep Water, A Novel of Joseph Smith”. In this delightful interview, we sit down with Warren and his wife Cindy as they take us through the different fascinating ways their families raised them in Salt Lake City ranging from orthodox Mormons to casual, but intellectual, members of the church.

Listen along as they share their hilarious stories, impart beautiful insights, and the lessons they learned raising moral children after leaving the religion they loved in the heart of Mormon Mecca.


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Show notes:
“Mormon Boy: A Memoir” by Warren Driggs https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Boy-Memoir-Warren-Driggs/dp/0998779547

“Swimming in Deep Water, A Novel of Joseph Smith” by Warren Driggs

“A Tortoise in the Road” by Warren Driggs

“Old Scratch” by Warren Driggs

“No Man Knows My History” by Fawn Brodie


  1. Barbara July 17, 2021 at 11:55 am - Reply

    Did I just understand you to say that a black adult male member had to sit out of elder’s quorum? I take that to mean a black male was not welcome in an elder’s quorum Sunday meeting. I am incredulous. And sick. Please tell me I misunderstood. Or where I may read that. I just can’t wrap my brain around that kind of exclusion.

  2. Jill Rawstorne July 17, 2021 at 1:54 pm - Reply

    Cute Cindy and Warren! I loved this podcast! You both are so intelligent and have always been the nicest people.

    I left the church shortly after you and it was really tough but has been so great. I totally agreed with you about you temple assessment. I started my path of not losing my faith in the church on the day I got married in the temple. Watching my beautiful and salt of the earth parents stand on the porch of our Abinidi Rd home and wave goodbye to me because they weren’t allowed to attend their daughter’s wedding, was devastating to me. They weren’t allowed at any of their four children’s weddings. Knowing of family and friends that lied to have a temple recommend to come to my wedding, just added to the hurt. I thought the temple was cult like when I took out my endowments. I spoke to our “mutual” stake president at the time about my concerns with how I felt when attending the temple. He gave me a curt reprimand telling me I was lucky because I had a priesthood holder that would take me to the temple. Those were the days when women weren’t allowed to go to the temple unless they were going on a mission or getting married.

    We’ve none each other for such a long time and I’m so glad you are my friends. You’re kids are so cute too. I’m so glad our daughters are still friends! I didn’t realize that you were in WOCA Cindy! With Covid, I haven’t been to very many events.

    I hope we run into each other soon!

    xoxo Jill Rawstorne

    p.s. Warren, I found myself laughing out loud with your jokes!

  3. Janice Hewett July 17, 2021 at 11:06 pm - Reply

    Hiding the coffee like it is a small bag of heroin. So funny. Great podcast!

  4. Janie July 18, 2021 at 8:12 am - Reply

    Thank you for sharing your story. I really appreciate both of your calm, fun, and thoughtful attitudes towards your discovery of truth. It is so much of a cooler way to deal with the anger that I wasted so much time on about my discovery of truth. Prior to my findings of the Mormons true narrative I tried so hard to make it work. I did make it work when I was serving others, using Christ teachings of kindness, and always loving family. ( I don’t think church or Jesus had anything to do with those actions. Not to toot my own horn at all however that is my nature. Maybe too a fault sometimes🙃). I could not make it work with the Temple, racism, inequality of men and women, history, and superiority above other churches. Really the list goes on.
    Last thing because I could go on for miles. Thank you for the laughs!! I love humor and you guys are fun!
    Enjoy your lives and thanks for sharing your wonderful countenance!
    Janie Hamai 56 year of age Heart of a 17 year old!

  5. VFanRJ July 18, 2021 at 6:33 pm - Reply

    As a BYU professor of Research of Mormonism, my dad had a rich library of Mormon history books, including one called No Man Knows My History. Among the vast selection I quickly brushed by Brodie’s book. A serious mistake on my part. This was back in the 70s and the hard cover book looked so old and unexciting. It had to be one of the original 1945 printings.
    Fast forward several decades to 2012 when my 80+ year dad wanted to know why I had resigned 20 years earlier. I went through my list of issues and then I focused on the Church hiding and lying about their historical narrative. My dad replied that the Church has to hide this information; otherwise people would leave the Church. I pointed out that this strategy no longer works in the information age and that my mixed faith marriage serves as an example of the damage their strategy causes.
    Its when Warren pointed out his reaction to Fawn Brodie’s book in this Mormon Story that it dawned on me that when my dad asserted that the Church has to hide information that subverts its narrative, he made that statement having read Fawn Brodie’s book. It means that during my adolescent years my dad deliberately choose not to point out that the dominant narrative of the Church was false, or at least heavily disputed. Nope, instead he let me work a year to save for my mission without informed consent. Perhaps he didn’t believe Brodie, but he never disputed my list of challenges, only that it would harm faith. No doubt that Mormonism has enormous moral blind spots.
    JD conducted such an amazing interview with the Driggs that was both enjoyable and informative.

  6. wesmanlv July 18, 2021 at 6:43 pm - Reply

    this was a great episode – i love the idea of having ‘fun’ with the church. that was a great insight. you seem like delightful people – thanks for taking the time to share your story.

  7. Mary G Moon July 19, 2021 at 1:31 pm - Reply

    What a great episode! I love the Driggs. What great story tellers they are, using humor to make serious points. If this episode had lasted eight hours I would have listened to every bit of it.

  8. Angela H July 20, 2021 at 2:46 pm - Reply


    I loved when you recognized you were starting to ‘rant’ and reigned it in. Your ‘ranting’ has never bothered me as I am also emotional and passionate when I speak, but knowing how hard it is to curb that, I was impressed by your new found skill. It can be a turn off to those who are still early in their faith transition, it was great to see you recognize and change that mid ‘rant’. I wish I could do it with my friends and family as well as you did in this interview!

  9. Cottonwood High Grad July 21, 2021 at 1:41 pm - Reply

    What a great couple, I grew up in the Holliday area, they remind me of many awesome people. Not being active in the 80s it was a blast in that area.
    I experienced the things most non Mormons do in slc, I don’t remember any of my friends or group of friends in high school that didn’t experiment with alcohol etc. and we had many great parties, even back in the 80s it seemed like only a handful of kids didn’t drink.
    Like most of them I went on a mission and repented. LOL
    Because of the area culture my feeling was many LDS parents were like the Driggs and just went because it was their local community. Even back then half my friends were of other religions. Your in a good area John!

  10. Karen July 23, 2021 at 9:21 pm - Reply

    John. I believe D. Michael Quinn talks about seeing Hyrum’s bloody shirt among other items, in the home of a patriarch he interviewed. Listen to Sunshine Mormon History Podcast.. I think it was episode 3.

  11. Karen July 23, 2021 at 9:27 pm - Reply

    in episode 4 of sunstone Mormon History Podcast D. Michael Quinn talks about seeing Hyrum’s bloody shirt.

  12. Andrea Hansen July 26, 2021 at 11:29 pm - Reply

    I’ve been a donor to MS for several years. I would love to donate to a project to turn No Man Knows My History into an audiobook. However John, I don’t think Alan Mount should read it. (No personal offense to Alan). The author of the book is a woman, and I think a woman’s voice would be more appropriate.

  13. Sharon July 27, 2021 at 3:14 am - Reply

    Hi John a question you mentioned about violence in the temple could u please explain what you meant . Thanks

  14. SB July 27, 2021 at 11:26 pm - Reply

    Warren and Cindy?
    I loved this episode. I love your sense of humor. I saw something in Cindy that I recognized in myself as far as “faking” it in the church. This was so encouraging!

  15. Kelly August 13, 2021 at 2:44 pm - Reply


    I have been listening to you from the beginning (Kiddie baptisms). I appreciate your work. I have been a contributor. For this episode I noticed something I hadn’t noticed in previous episodes (at least not to this degree). You tend to interrupt and ask questions of Cindy much more than Warren. Of course, once I noticed this, it was difficult for me to get past it.

  16. Rebecca November 16, 2021 at 11:19 pm - Reply

    I really related to this interview. My rabbit hole experience started when “The God Makers” came to town back in the mid-80’s. I set out to prove them wrong. I lived in California and didn’t have access to the Tanners, so it took me months to dig through all the layers to confirm the unwanted truth — that the “Anti’s” were more trustworthy than my beloved church leaders. But I didn’t leave. It would have cost me my marriage and I had no skills to raise 6 kids on my own. Got used to the dissonance over time, but now I’m in Utah. The struggle just got a lot harder. Cindy, you are so lovely. I was distracted by your beautiful arms that defy your age. And Warren, I love your quippy sense of humor. I bought “Swimming In Deep Water” and “Mormon Boy.” I too vote for audible versions, but I can’t bypass these, even if it means taking a break to sit down and read.

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