Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 588

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Laura Andreasen [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John de lynn. It is November 17, 2015, it is 8:47am Mountain Time, and I'm very excited to have today's guest with us. So our guest for today is Laura. Laura, tell us how to pronounce your full name.

Laura Andreasen [00:01:18] Laura Andreasen.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Laura Andreasen. Okay. And I guess you know, I guess you know, the way we're building this and what's sort of worth mentioning right at the. At the top of the podcast is that Laura is the granddaughter of M. Russell Ballard, who is one of the senior apostles for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And the way this interview came about is pretty straightforward. I was going through my messages on Facebook and Laura had reached out to me and expressed just sort of said she had an interesting story and expressed an interest possibly in talking about it. And so that's really as complex or as simple as this podcast is, or at least how it came about. So, Laura, we're gonna sort of do a deep dive today, but welcome to Mormon Stories podcast, I should say.

Laura Andreasen [00:02:18] All right, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] And normally we just dive right into your story, but I think it's important to begin with sort of intention here. So why don't we begin by just you telling us why you were interested in doing this interview?

Laura Andreasen [00:02:37] Well, first of all, I kind of feel like I need to add a little disclaimer to say that I really hope that. That this interview doesn't disappoint people. I hope that I'm true to myself, but I'm always concerned that maybe some people wish I was more anti and some people wish I was more straight line. But I kind of just want to explain my story maybe. Unfortunately, sometimes I'm still a bit of a church apologist, especially for my grandpa, because he is my grandpa. But yeah, I just, I feel like I do have some things that might be valuable for other people Maybe not. We'll see. But I hope so.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] Yeah. Okay, so I think we both agreed beforehand the purpose of this interview is not to criticize the church. It's not to criticize your grandpa. It's not to take advantage of you and your situation with your family. It's simply just to understand your story and to get your perspective on what you've experienced in the church and to keep things very constructive. Does that sound fair?

Laura Andreasen [00:03:58] Yeah. That's great. And I'm not shy. You can go ahead and ask me things that might make me a little uncomfortable. I'm used to that, so ask away.

Laura's Current Relationship with the Church

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Okay. And I think it's probably worth mentioning up top that why don't you tell us your relationship to the church as of now?

Laura Andreasen [00:04:17] Okay. Well, right now, I have sent in a resignation email, so I'm wondering if maybe that's sort of a pansy way to do it. But it was easy, and it was something that I wanted to get out there before I kind of was maybe talked into not doing it. So it's on the fence. I am pretty sure that my ecclesiastical leaders will fight me on it. So I'm gonna have to decide for sure that that is what I want to do, and I'm pretty dead set on it right now, but that's where we are.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] So you've resigned your membership, but it hasn't been confirmed?

Laura Andreasen [00:04:53] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] Okay. All right. Okay. So. And we're going to get into why, why you made that decision later, but let's just go ahead and dive in, if that's okay. So, you know, we've already talked about this, but I. I have no intention of being exploitative. You came to me. I made sure that you felt comfortable and safe to give this interview before talking to you. And as we agreed to before, any question that I ask, you know, I've gathered a lot of questions from listeners. I want to make sure you feel comfortable just saying, I'd rather not talk about that or, I don't know. You know, there's no pressure here. We just want to hear your story and whatever you're comfortable sharing with us. And I just want to make sure that's kind of understood as the ground rules. Does that sound all right?

Laura Andreasen [00:05:48] That's all right. You are in the free and clear. I am not doing this under duress.

John Dehlin [00:05:52] Okay. All right. So one of the things that I know about Elder Ballard, and I can't say I know a ton about him, is how much he references the fact that he's a direct descendant of Hyrum Smith. So talk a bit about how your family's direct relationship with the Smith family, the blood relationship with the Smith family and with Joseph Smith. Talk about how your family talks about that history, that heritage.

Elder Ballard's Family and Church Heritage

Laura Andreasen [00:06:29] Well, it is so entwined in everything that we do. My son, his name is Hyrum, actually. And I've always looked up to Hyrum Smith and the example that he had of being like this person with great integrity. I think the scripture said that his integrity was above those of the angels. And I'm like, I've always thought, boy, I'd love to be more like Hyrum Smith. We're constantly told about our ancestors. We've got apostles and prophets in the lineage through my Ballard side. And there are a lot of comparisons there. And we are compared to them. Maybe not outright, but. But I feel we're compared to them all the time. And we have to kind of look at ourselves and say, okay, how am I doing in relation to my ancestors who were so faithful?

John Dehlin [00:07:23] So you feel compared to the prophet Joseph or Hyrum or the pioneers, that's sort of a pressure that you guys kind of live with?

Laura Andreasen [00:07:33] I think so. I don't think anybody does it on purpose, but it's there.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Yeah. I imagine the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum looms large in your family's lore. Are there ways that that story is told or talked about that really leaves an imprint on you and your aunts and uncles and siblings?

Laura Andreasen [00:08:00] Well, I remember I've been on a lot of church history tours, and I am no church scholar by any means, but we went with my grandfather to go visit many of the church sites. And I remember we went to Carthage, and I've been there a few times, but I remember seeing the blood of Hyrum Smith on the ground, and that just striking me as, you know, that's my blood. His blood is my blood. And I felt a lot of sympathy for Hyrum and Joseph. And it's very difficult to hear things said about Joseph Smith. People calling him an old pervert, a molester. That's difficult. And I'm not saying if they are. They're right or wrong. I'm not sure I can do that. But I know that it's hard knowing that that is my bloodline. Those people are my people. And so it is. It hurts to hear that. I don't blame people for feeling that way, but it's hard.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Yeah, that would be hard. So tell us. So I'm trying to think back to what I know about your dad's ancestry, does he come through a Melvin Ballard, is that right? I'm trying to think about who his dad or grandfather would have been.

Laura Andreasen [00:09:17] Yes, his father actually wasn't active for many, many years. His grandfather was Melvin J. Ballard, who was an apostle as well. So his grandfather was an apostle.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] And do you. Did you ever know. You never. Probably never knew Melvin J. Ballard?

Laura Andreasen [00:09:34] No, I didn't know my great grandfather either.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Okay. Okay. Do you have a sense for when Melvin Ballard would have been an apostle? Like kind of, what, decades? Do you. I'm just trying to think. I don't even know Melvin J. Yeah.

Laura Andreasen [00:09:50] So I am not 100% sure, but I. I would guess maybe in the 40s. See, it is terrible. I should know more about my family history, but I feel like there's just so much of it that I get lazy and I'm like, oh, I don't even. Whatever. It is what it is. And so people are always a little embarrassed. You don't know your family history? No, not really.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] No. It's totally okay. I'm the same way. It looks like he was ordained an apostle in 1919. Melvin J. Ballard was, and he set up open a missionary work in South America, in Argentina. Looks like he served in the quorum of the 12 until he died of leukemia. And he served. He died in 39. Okay, so he would have been. So he would have been an apostle during the time B.H. roberts was, you know, trying to talk to the apostles, I think, about his discoveries with the Book of Mormon. Anyway. Okay, so your grandfather's grandfather was an apostle.

Laura Andreasen [00:11:01] Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] But then you're saying that Elder Ballard's father was inactive from the church.

Laura Andreasen [00:11:09] Yes, I know he was inactive for years, and I am not privy to much of that information. Unfortunately, in our family, we kind of sweep things under the rug. And so a lot of things that may be interesting we don't talk about, but I do know that he was inactive. He and his wife, my grandpa's mother, were inactive for years and years.

John Dehlin [00:11:35] And it's just. You've never tried to ask and it's never come up?

Laura Andreasen [00:11:40] I have asked. I've asked my parents before, but they ignored me and just. Or brushed it off. I can't remember their exact wording, but I guess it's something they don't like to focus on. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's interesting. And so do you have a sense for what brought your grandfather, Elder Ballard, back into church activity when he was raised by parents that weren't active? Do you do?

Laura Andreasen [00:12:10] You know, I. Unfortunately, I do not know. I think they were probably active as he was growing up. And so he may have already had his testimony in place by the time they went inactive. That's my best guess.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so tell us what you know about your grandpa. Just kind of the high level points about his upbringing, you know, was he. Do you know? I mean, what do you know? Was he raised in Utah?

Laura Andreasen [00:12:42] He was. He was born and raised in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] What part of Utah?

Laura Andreasen [00:12:46] Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Okay.

Laura Andreasen [00:12:49] And, you know, I know that he had a few different jobs. He went to the University of Utah where he met my grandmother and they got married. A lot of his childhood stories he's written about in some of his books, but he doesn't really tell a lot of them. He's not your average grandfather that sits down and tells you the stories about his childhood, which is kind of unfortunate, but I've always said, well, he's really busy, so he might not have enough time to sit down and talk to us about that.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] And that was definitely, you know, one of the questions that people asked is just sort of, to what extent can apostles even have enough time to be a grandpa? But before we just dive into that. So he went to the U. He married your grandmother. One of the things that people like to say most about him is that he was a car salesman. Do you know anything about his career prior to becoming an apostle?

Laura Andreasen [00:13:55] Yeah, he was a car salesman for years and years and years. And he worked with Nate Wade is one of his really good friends to this day. And he, I mean, that is what he is known as. If you were to take those. I remember in seminary, those little quizzes, what did this apostle do? And I remember always being like, oh, grandpa was a car salesman, like amongst these other men who are like heart surgeons. And they were in the supreme, you

John Dehlin [00:14:23] know, Utah Supreme Court, went to Harvard Law School or business school or whatever.

Laura Andreasen [00:14:30] That's right. And so then he's a car salesman.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] All right, so what, I mean, how did you feel about that? And how does your family talk about that? Is there anything they would say that all professions are honorable? I'm just trying to imagine.

Laura Andreasen [00:14:45] Oh, probably. I don't know. I don't think they talk about it because maybe they don't feel like it's something to brag about. But I don't see it as anything wrong with it at all. I think it's great. There should be more people in the church with leadership, with different jobs. So I don't see anything wrong with it, but we just don't really. We haven't really discussed it all that often.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] Yeah. Yeah. So I can just imagine him being. Was he just, like, a superstar car salesman in Salt Lake City at a major dealership? What was his. What was his dealership? Do you know, like, what. What it was.

Laura Andreasen [00:15:23] I imagine he did all right. I think he did well enough. He did a lot of investing as well, and so I think that's how he earned probably more of his money than car salesman, but I know that he did well.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Okay, do you know the name of his dealership or where it was located or what type of cars he sold? I'm just curious.

Laura Andreasen [00:15:45] I don't. I don't. All I know is the story that he likes to tell about the Edsel and what a big failure it was. That's really. You know, I know as much as you guys know when it comes to his life as a car salesman, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] No, that's fine. That's fine. Okay, so how many children did he have?

Growing Up as a Ballard Grandchild

Laura Andreasen [00:16:03] He has seven children and a ridiculous amount of grandchildren. I don't even know how many cousins I have. I haven't stopped to count them all, but there are many.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] Okay, and so you come from which of his children?

Laura Andreasen [00:16:17] I come from his second daughter, third child, Malia.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] Okay, so there are two older brothers before Malia.

Laura Andreasen [00:16:25] There's an older brother and an older daughter.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Okay, okay.

Laura Andreasen [00:16:29] Second daughter.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] Okay, second daughter. Sorry. Okay, so your mom's Malia. And so what do you know about her, her childhood and history growing up as the daughter of M. Russell Ballard?

Laura Andreasen [00:16:44] You know, I will say that I've asked many times. My. My grandmother is a saint. She is just a wonderful, wonderful woman. And sometimes I joke that you'd have to be to put up grandpa, which is totally rude. But.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] What's her name? What's her name?

Laura Andreasen [00:17:01] Barbara.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] Barbara Ballard.

Laura Andreasen [00:17:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] Okay, keep going. Okay, so.

Laura Andreasen [00:17:05] And. But I will say that my grandpa, from what I heard, was a wonderful father. When they would crash a car or do something they weren't supposed to do, he was very forgiving. He wasn't your strict, yell at you type of dad. And I just. I think his children all love him and are extremely loyal to him, and I think his grandchildren are as well.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] Okay, so you. You feel like from everything you've heard, both. Both elder Ballard and. And your grandmother were loving, devoted grandparents that engendered loyal children and grandchildren?

Laura Andreasen [00:17:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] Okay, so tell us about your mom and, like, what you know about her growing up and school and things like that.

Laura Andreasen [00:17:58] My mom has always been very much a peacemaker, and she's pretty even keeled. She doesn't get emotional about things and. Which is complete opposite of me. I get very emotional. And so it's actually really rough being a child of two somewhat in emotional people. But yeah, she's got a very even temper. She's just very kind to people. She's smart. She's an English teacher at a high school in Utah right now.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] So she grew up in Salt Lake City?

Laura Andreasen [00:18:35] Yes, both of my parents grew up in Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Okay, and did they go to the U of U also?

Laura Andreasen [00:18:43] Yes, they both went to the University of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] Okay, so you got a strong Ute tradition in your family.

Laura Andreasen [00:18:49] Yeah, but so many of them went traitor and started rooting for byu. I mean, I know I'm the only you of you hardy person left. Everybody sort of. Even though they went to the University of Utah, sort of turned traitor on me. But that's all right, you know, tweech his own.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] What high school did your mom go to? Do you remember?

Laura Andreasen [00:19:11] She went to East, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Okay. And any just like her hobbies growing up or, you know, what she was interested in or any idea?

Laura Andreasen [00:19:23] Yeah, I believe she was in pep club or something like that as well as she's a big reader. I don't think that she did sports or anything like that, but I think she had plenty of friends and had a pretty good upbringing.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] Okay, so tell us a bit about. About your dad.

Laura Andreasen [00:19:44] He was born and raised in Salt Lake, came from a strong LDS background, I believe. Parents, grandparents were lds. His parents were a lot more strict than my mother's parents. And so I've got a nice mix there of extremely strict parenting versus, you know, little bit less strict. But yeah, he went to Olympus High School, I believe, and served a mission in Spain, then returned met my mom and that's that.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] Any stories about what it was like for him to be dating the daughter of an apostle? Would Elder Ballard have been an apostle when your parents married or.

Laura Andreasen [00:20:30] I believe he was a General Authority, but not in the quorum of the 12. But I could be wrong. I am not 100% certain. I know he was a General Authority before I was born, and then he became a member of the quorum of the 12 about a year after I was born.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] And what year was that?

Laura Andreasen [00:20:51] I was born in 1983.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] Okay, so around 84 he became an apostle.

Laura Andreasen [00:20:56] I believe so.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] Okay, so it sounds like he and your mom, Elder Ballard, and your grandmother. Tell me her name one more time.

Laura Andreasen [00:21:09] Barbara.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] Barbara. So Elder Ballard and Barbara would have been just loving in laws to your father? Sounds like. Because they weren't super strict.

Laura Andreasen [00:21:19] I think so. I think it was hard for my dad, though, because just the way my grandpa is, I feel like he can be a little intimidating. So I think it was hard for my dad. I think it still kind of is hard for my dad.

John Dehlin [00:21:34] Okay. So even though he's loving, just probably his office alone can make that be really intimidating.

Laura Andreasen [00:21:44] Right. I mean, I'm still. I'm intimidated occasionally. Not as often as I used to be, but I still get intimidated by the calling that he holds.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about your parents. So they. They both went to the U, is that right?

Laura Andreasen [00:22:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] And they got married, I'm guessing, in the late 70s, early 80s?

Laura Andreasen [00:22:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] And then what? Tell us a bit about kind of your family's life when you were young.

Laura Andreasen [00:22:14] Okay. So my brother. My older brother, he was born in Utah, Salt Lake City, I believe. And then my family moved. My parents moved to Boston. My dad went to get an MBA at Harvard, and that's where I was born. So. Hooray.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] So you're born in Cambridge.

Laura Andreasen [00:22:35] Let's. I was born at Brigham and Women's Hospital, probably in Boston.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] Yeah.

Laura Andreasen [00:22:40] Yeah, in Boston. And so life was made complete for them, but they still had decided they would have more children. So when he graduated from Harvard, he got many different jobs, and we moved around the country, and additional siblings were born. There's six kids in my family, and so we kind of grew up all over the place.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] And you're number what, of six?

Laura Andreasen [00:23:05] I am number two.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] Number two of six. Okay. Okay. So you kind of grew up all around what was. What was. How did the church interplay with your family? Kind of growing up in terms of, like, doing all the normal things and, you know, what did the church mean to you and your family, and how did that manifest itself growing up?

Laura Andreasen [00:23:31] I think people who are born and raised in the church find difficult to sort of untangle their relationship with the church, and that's how I feel. I don't really know who I would have been without the church. I sometimes get a little frustrated because I would have liked to know who I would have been as a child without the church, but it played into everything. It played into what kind of friends we made. It played into what we did or did not do on Sundays, how we spent what we watched. It was difficult, and it's a hard thing to say, because I know a lot of people would disagree with Me, but if I could, I would have gone back and not been raised in the church. And I know that's a hard thing to hear for some people, but that's how I feel.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] What made it so hard?

Laura Andreasen [00:24:35] Just, you know, the church is supposed to make us all feel wonderful, right? We know who our parents are in heaven, we're children of God. But that puts so much pressure on children. And I have always been a sort of sensitive kid, but also a bit of a goofball. And so I tried to be who I was supposed to be in the church. And I lost a lot of my authentic self somewhere in there. And it was hard trying to learn how to get that back.

Struggles and Liberal Tendencies as a Young Mormon

John Dehlin [00:25:10] What were some of the. Are you comfortable talking about some of the main struggles you had as a kid, not feeling worthy or struggling to fit in? Was it. I mean, in what types of areas was that most difficult for you?

Laura Andreasen [00:25:26] Well, I was never really living anywhere with a lot of LDS people. I know in the majority of my growing up years, I lived in a small town in Iowa, and I was the only member of the church in my school, either me and my brother or just myself. And that was rough. I had to try to figure out who I was. And I have always been more of a liberal sort of person than a conservative type of person. And so that was difficult. But also just life experiences that I've had, I've had to sort of try to separate the church from what happened. And that's really, really difficult, I think, for anybody who is born and raised in the church.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] When you say liberal in what types of ways, and you don't have to give uncomfortable specifics, but I just. So we understand, are you talking about the music you listen to or the things you like to do or just your personality? Like, what do you mean?

Laura Andreasen [00:26:32] Well, I guess it's kind of funny that we call it liberal when to me, being a liberal means somebody who just loves all different types of people and is not very judgmental. And to me, that's what being a liberal meant. It meant that I was okay with people if they were gay. I was okay with people if they wore certain clothing or looked a certain way. I was fine with that. But I know that my parents were not as okay with it, and the church definitely wasn't as okay with it.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] So are you kind of saying that you would make friends maybe in middle school or high school, and some of these friends wouldn't maybe meet all the LDS standards and that that made maybe your parents uncomfortable?

Laura Andreasen [00:27:21] I'm sure I Mean, I was not popular ever. And so I kind of made friends with the people who needed a friend versus with, you know, the popular groups. I was just friends with whoever needed a friend because I needed a friend. So I wasn't really able to be picky and choosy. Not that I would have necessarily, but. And so a lot of those friends were outcasts, if you will, and not maybe the kind of kids my parents would have preferred me to be friends with.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] And so that. That made you feel pressure or stress or sadness growing up?

Laura Andreasen [00:28:00] Yes, I. Well, I felt that way. I felt like an outcast. I just never knew how to say it. In Mormonism, you say, yeah, oh, definitely. I mean, I was wearing pants to church before it was a thing to wear pants to church. Of course, Mind you, I wore pants underneath my long skirt because there was only so far I could get away with that in my family. But I always just felt a little bit off.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Was that to be rebellious? Was that just because it was just your style choice? Was it because you had feminist sensibilities? Like, what do you attribute your differentness to?

Laura Andreasen [00:28:35] You know, I may have had feminist sensibilities. I did always struggle with why didn't women have the priesthood and what's all this nonsense about polygamy? I did struggle with that, and I think it was me trying to find my voice in my own silly way. But I was labeled as rebellious, and I was labeled as somebody with an attitude problem. And that was hard for me because I didn't think that was a fair label to be put upon me.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] This was in high school?

Laura Andreasen [00:29:05] High school? Middle school, yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] Okay. So in a family where sort of reputation and honor and church heritage is so important, that must have been really difficult to feel labeled as a rebel.

Laura Andreasen [00:29:22] It was, because it was just who I am. And I thought, it's not fair to label somebody a rebel just because they're trying to be their own authentic self. Although I was not nearly as articulate about it. But we were always told, people are watching you. I mean, that sounds so creepy, but people would say, people are watching you to see how you behave. My dad was the Stake president, and the first thing he ever said when he was called was, people will be watching your behavior. And that was difficult for me. And I may have kicked against the pricks a little bit, if you will, because I was basically screaming, don't watch me. Don't look at me as an example. I don't know what I'm doing. If you want an example, go find one of the many other young women who are much better in the church than I am.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] How old were you when your dad was made a stake president?

Laura Andreasen [00:30:20] Oh, this is my guess, but probably around 12 or 13, maybe younger.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] Okay, so that would have been sort of your whole. Was he a stake president for 10 years?

Laura Andreasen [00:30:36] I believe it was about seven years. We moved to Utah when I was 16. So he was a stake president in the Midwest.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] Is there any way for you to know whether his father in law would have had anything to do with him becoming a stake president? Like, to what extent callings like that are influenced by relationships?

Laura Andreasen [00:31:01] I have wondered that. And I have always sort of kicked myself for wondering that because I don't think you're really supposed to be wondering these things. You're supposed to just believe that everything is inspired. But I've wondered when I got called on a mission, I wondered how much of that is my grandpa and how much of that is really and truly inspired. Now, I don't see it as a bad thing to wonder. And, you know, perhaps there is no way for us little people to ever know that, but I'm guessing it plays a part.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] Yeah. So talk a bit about what your memories are of Elder Ballard and your grandma Barbara growing up. You know, one extreme would be you never saw them because he was always gone. You know, another would be you see him just very rarely, but occasionally all the way to. They were very involved and devoted and loving. All omnipresent grandparents. What was it like for you and what are some of your memories?

Laura Andreasen [00:32:10] I think they were as involved as they could possibly be. I mean, he is a very busy, busy person. He travels the world doing church business. And also the fact that we didn't live in Utah, where the majority of my extended family lives, made it more difficult maybe for them to be involved. But I feel like I had a really good relationship with him. Whenever I was struggling with something, I wanted to talk to my grandpa. And he was, for whatever reason, always the first person that I wanted to talk to about issues that I had. Not always sure that was the best person for me to talk to about certain issues. But I really honored his calling as an apostle and perhaps maybe thought his advice would be better. I don't really know the reasons why, but he was a good grandfather. He always made time for his family. And I will say that about him, he always made time for family. And my grandma, there's just nothing bad I can say say about her ever. She's just. She's an angel.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] That's great. And so do you remember times reaching out to him with. With problems and having him help you?

Laura Andreasen [00:33:30] I. So I've had good experiences reaching out to him, and I've had a couple really bad experiences reaching out to him. Yes. So I was expelled from two high schools, and after I was expelled from the first one, I called him and just wanted him to tell me that everything was going to be okay. And he did tell me that. And weirdly enough, our family ended up moving to Utah not long after. So I always kind of wondered if he had pulled some strings to get my family to move to Utah to be closer to the good ship Zion or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] What took your family to Utah? Was it a job or.

Laura Andreasen [00:34:16] Yes, my dad actually did get a job. And I hate to say this because my dad is a very smart person and he can get any type of job, but he ended up working for the church in the missionary department, and he loved it. That was probably his favorite job he's had.

John Dehlin [00:34:34] Okay, so he had an MBA from Harvard. What was his profession in. Was it Iowa? Where was he a state in Iowa. What was his profession there?

Laura Andreasen [00:34:45] He was in business. Business management. And he worked for an ice cream company.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Okay. Do you remember the name of the company? I'm just Wells.

Laura Andreasen [00:34:55] Blue Bunny.

John Dehlin [00:34:56] Oh, Blue Bunny. Cool.

Laura Andreasen [00:34:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] Okay. All right. Okay. And so he. So you're saying that. That maybe you and your family were having some struggles and. And you reached out to Elder Ballard and then shortly thereafter your dad got a position with the missionary department.

Laura Andreasen [00:35:15] Right. And I don't know if he was already applying there. I have no idea. That is conjecture.

John Dehlin [00:35:19] Sure, sure, sure. No, that's fine. That's fine. But you're saying he loved that job?

Laura Andreasen [00:35:24] He does. He works now for. He's getting ready to retire, but he just got switched to the perpetual education fund. But he worked for the missionary department for years and years.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] How long has your dad worked for the church? Any idea?

Laura Andreasen [00:35:39] I believe he started working there in 2000.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] Okay, so about 15 years.

Laura Andreasen [00:35:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] He's been okay. And so. But you're saying that Elder Ballard made you feel just a lot better about. That things are going to be okay.

Laura Andreasen [00:35:55] He did. I mean, he can be a comforting person to be around.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Yeah. Are you comfortable? And just say no if you're not. Are there any other. Are you comfortable sharing any other types of issues you may have gone to your grandpa about that he would have helped you with, or.

Personal Interactions with Grandfather Ballard

Laura Andreasen [00:36:18] I've got one where he wasn't so helpful. And I think probably the listeners are really excited to Hear that one. But I'm going to share it because I think it's only fair. But I was having. I have been divorced, and I had called him, upset, crying, wondering what I could do in my marriage to make it better, what I could possibly do that I hadn't already done. And I ended up, for whatever reason, I didn't have the chance to talk to him at that point in time. So he called me later and I didn't answer the phone, and he left me a message. And on the message, I know you people are going to love this, he said that I should work on my body and try to lose some weight and try to make myself attractive. And this made me so angry, I cried forever. I called him an ass. I apologize for my language there. But I was so, so angry, and rightfully so. But I held it in and I didn't say anything to him for a really long time because I thought, well, I need to forgive him. I know he didn't come from a place of trying to hurt me. I know that's not how he is. So I held it onto it and I tried to forgive him. And finally I said, no, I'm just gonna tell him. And because I'm sort of a chicken, I ended up telling him in an email. And I said, hey, your advice was extremely unhelpful, and it was rude and it's wrong. And I hope you never say anything like that to anyone ever again. Because if my husband doesn't want to be with me because I need to drop a few pounds, then I don't want to be with him. And I kind of went off a little bit, and of course I ended it with, you know I love you. I know you weren't trying to hurt me, but you did, and I hope you learn your lesson. But obviously he hasn't quite learned that lesson, but that was an experience that I struggled with because it's very difficult for me and other people to not separate the man from the calling, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] Yeah. Did he respond to your email?

Laura Andreasen [00:38:54] He did. Short and sweet. He said, I didn't mean to hurt you, and I apologize. And I accepted his apology.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] That's nice.

Laura Andreasen [00:39:03] Doesn't mean I forgot about it, but I accepted his apology. We all say things that maybe we don't think twice about, and he does come from a different time. I know it makes people mad when we try to justify it that way, but I do not think he ever means to be insulting. He is occasionally, though. They all are. But that's the nature of the beast.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] I suppose so. You know, a lot of people were really lovely in their questions and they just wanted to hear. And I really appreciate your candor. I think it's fair to tell good and, you know, good and bad. Right. Like to give a balanced perspective. I think everybody respects that. I know my listeners wouldn't want to hear only negative. That would. That wouldn't seem authentic. It would just seem like a hit job. So I guess I want to say I'm grateful for both and I want to make sure you feel comfortable just telling it how it is, but also in a balanced way. People just. And so it sounds like you were able to, you know, you lived away from him for a long time and so you're able to call him every once in a while and it sounds like he was really busy. Do you have memories of sort of one on one time with him that really stick out in your mind, of ways you were able to really connect? Or were those opportunities to kind of be have one on one time with Grandpa in your childhood and early adolescence, were those even available?

Laura Andreasen [00:40:37] I think the time was available. I'm not sure how much we ever connected when we were together alone because it was always, I don't want to say a lecture, but it was always sort of just him giving me advice and that's not always what I wanted from him. I think everybody wants a grandparent that they can just, you know, sit down and talk to about things without sort of getting the religion pushed into it. And in all fairness, I think that he takes his calling seriously and so he feels the need to preach all the time, but I don't always care to hear it all the time. So I don't really know how much we connected on a one in one level. We are very different individuals and maybe somewhat similar in the fact that we can both be kind of stubborn.

John Dehlin [00:41:38] So he was kind of always the apostle first and the grandpa second in your direct interactions with him, Is that what you're saying? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Laura Andreasen [00:41:46] Yes. No, that is how it felt. Whether or not it felt that way to him, I don't know. But that is how it felt to me personally.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] Okay. And so I guess I hear you saying that might have gotten in the way of your intimate relationship with him a bit, because for you, you wanted Grandpa sometimes, not Apostle Ballard.

Laura Andreasen [00:42:06] That's right. And I don't know that I felt I could be my authentic self around him. So that played into it too.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] You felt like you had to be what

Laura Andreasen [00:42:21] More accepting of church culture, maybe. I remember one time we had a little family meeting. I don't even remember what it was about. Probably a church history type thing. And I asked him. This was around the time when the ordained women stuff was becoming a big deal. And I asked him, so what do you think about disordained women stuff that's going on? And he just blew me off. And I was embarrassed because other people were there and they saw him blow me off. And I was like, huh, okay, guess we can't talk about that. And it bothered me because I am someone who likes to be open and talk about everything. That's how I get through stuff. I talk through things. And unfortunately, I feel like the church is very much silence oriented on a lot of these issues.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] And that was kind of maybe your family culture to just not talk about hard things. Is that fair to say, or.

Laura Andreasen [00:43:22] Oh, absolutely. I mean, my family is a whole bunch of crazy. We have so much mental illness running through my family, and we rarely talk about it, and that just makes it worse. That makes all the problems worse. And. And so I feel like, truthfully, if. If I had been able to be more open with who I was, maybe I would have had more desire to stay close to the church. But there's just a big disconnect there where I'm like, I can't be myself. I can't find peace. So that's why I eventually made the decision to resign.

Turbulent Teen Years and Getting Kicked Out of School

John Dehlin [00:44:03] So if it's okay, let's back up a bit. So you. You're kicked out of two high schools. It sounds like you had a turbulent. Now, how much of that? I mean, sometimes we struggle because of just biological factors. Sometimes we struggle because of relational factors in our family. Sometimes cultural factors like the church can be at play, you know, and. And of course, even we don't know how much each of those factors influence. But if you were to look back on your troubled adolescence, what do you attribute it to? How much of it was the church? You know, culture? Guilt, shame? How much of it was just your family dynamics? And maybe, maybe all of it was just genetics and. And your personality. Like, how do you make sense now of your troubled childhood? Or have you tried?

Laura Andreasen [00:45:00] I have tried. It is quite the tangled web to unweave. I think definitely part of it is genetics. I take a medicine for anxiety and depression because those were things that I really, really struggled with. But my family didn't really believe in medicine, so I struggled with that for years and years and years. Suicide was constantly on my mind as an option of something that I might want to do.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Starting from what age?

Laura Andreasen [00:45:32] Really, really young. I remember thinking about wanting to be dead when I was just a little kid.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] And your family wasn't big on psychology or psychiatry?

Laura Andreasen [00:45:44] No, none of the above. Or medicine, or even just talking about it and getting it out. When I did talk about it, I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment, so I didn't talk about it. I had an experience where I was sexually abused as a child. And when I went to speak to my family about it, they laughed. They laughed at me and I never spoke about it again. And that was very difficult. And so that was.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] Was that in connection with the church?

Laura Andreasen [00:46:17] That was a relative of mine who is a member of the church. And I have forgiven that person and I have moved on and I him. But not being able to talk about it was devastating. And to be laughed at when I was trying to express something I believe I was nine at the time was heartbreaking. And I never felt after that that I could be open and honest about anything. And so it was a struggle. So I would say part of it was biological. I know that because after I started taking the proper medication, a lot of it went away. And a lot of it that has continued to haunt me is cultural. The church has done a lot of damage in my life and I'm watching it do a lot of damage in other people's lives. And it's hard and it hurts. And I just. That's. If there's anything I want to stand up for, it's for the people hurting in the church.

John Dehlin [00:47:21] Maybe you've already talked about it, but if you were to talk about how you feel the church damaged you in your teen years or childhood, what were the main things other than what you've already said?

Laura Andreasen [00:47:36] I think we are told to be perfect and so many people say, no, we're not told to be perfect. We're told that we can be perfect and we need to try to be better. But in essence, we're told that we need to be perfect. I don't want to get into the semantics of it with people. It's how I feel. And I feel that I'm supposed to be perfect. And it's so unattainable. And it was so unattainable for me then. Right now for these people who have same sex attraction and who are gay and lesbian, they feel the same way. They feel like to be perfect is to be straight. And that is not going to happen. It's not attainable for me. And so a Lot of us struggle with that same idea of Mormon perfection. And it's hard, and it damages people. And it ruined my life in a lot of ways. And I hate to say that I am a returned missionary. I was a faithful member of the church, and I've always been on guard on saying things that might damage the church. But I have to be honest when I say I truly feel that being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints took a giant piece of me and ruined it.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] And so for you, it was the constant feeling that you needed to be perfect and just constantly feeling like you were failing.

Laura Andreasen [00:49:17] Right. And I think that's everybody. I think everybody has so much anxiety in the church. They can't just sit back and be still. They have to be doing something or be working to be better. Or you can't just sit there and think a thought without thinking, oh, well, I shouldn't have thought that. Or maybe I should be thinking about more productive things. So it's a real problem in the church that I don't think gets addressed nearly enough.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] Yeah. Okay. So so far, I'm hearing you say sort of a culture of not talking about things and a culture of sort of perfection. Any other major sort of dynamics that you feel harmed you in your. In your upbringing with the church, or are those the main things? I don't want to keep fishing. I just want to make sure, you

Laura Andreasen [00:50:07] know, I really think those are mostly the main things. Sor told that we need to be quiet. And good old Grandpa, he is somewhat famous for saying that women should express their feelings but not talk too much. And I, knowing Grandpa, know that was a stupid joke, but that's how we still feel. I went through a disciplinary council, and that was just awful because it was me in a room with a bunch of men who I wasn't comfortable with, and. And I wasn't. I felt that I had no say. And so I think a lot of us struggle with feeling like we don't have a say in the church. And it's not just women. I think some men feel that way, too.

Serving a Mission as Ballard's Granddaughter

John Dehlin [00:50:55] Okay, so let's. So you ended up. Somehow you ended up going from getting kicked out of two high schools to serving a mission. Talk about that, if you don't mind.

Laura Andreasen [00:51:04] Sure. We moved to Utah. I struggled a lot with depression. It's a cultural shock for anyone.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] High school. What high school did you go to?

Laura Andreasen [00:51:18] Well, I went to Bingham High School before I got expelled.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Laura Andreasen [00:51:24] And then after that, I went to. Well, I sort of did a at home program. I ended up having this brain tumor type thing. It was like a pseudo brain tumor. And so I got these terrible headaches and I went and had some medical procedures done to alleviate that. But I ended up graduating at home through a program that's done for troubled youth. So yay me. But I graduated and I. And I started at the University of Utah and I. But see, I had always known I wanted to be a missionary since I was a little bitty girl. I was always so offended that the songs about missionaries were geared towards men because I knew I wanted to go on a mission too. And I knew I'd be awesome at it. And so that was always a goal of mine. And I worked to get myself more spiritually in line. I stopped, you know, before I got my mission call, I stopped watching tv. I stopped listening to anything other than church music. I read my scriptures a lot. I did everything I possibly could to be ready. I will tell you, nothing can prepare you for the temple though. I mean, that was one of the first times I was like, nope, this is not the church for me.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Why? What was it about the temple that really.

Laura Andreasen [00:52:51] I tell you what, I thought I was as prepared as I could possibly be. And I get in there and the whole time in my mind I'm having this conversation with myself, like, are these people for real? Like, do they know how crazy they look? When can I get out of here? Like, every time you could supposed to be able to raise your hand. I wanted to be like, me, me, get me out of here. Like, I want out. This is scary. Everybody looks insane. You guys are crazy. And like, I hated it. I hated it, hated it so bad. But I didn't feel I could say that. Of course you can't say that. Some of my family was with me. So then I had this pressure, like, oh, you know, they're watching me. I've got tears in my eyes, but there are tears of absolute terror instead of happiness. And then we get into the celestial room after and everybody was like, oh, isn't it so wonderful? And I was like, hell no, that was horrible. But you can't really say that either. So I just kind of didn't say anything. And afterwards I told my parents or told my mom, like, I'm never going back there again. That was super weird. Like, I had heard that it might be a little strange, but that was way more strange than I thought.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] Was this the Salt Lake Temple with the live ordinances or was it the film?

Laura Andreasen [00:54:14] The first time I went through I believe it was the Jordan River Temple. Although I did go through the Salt Lake, and that was weird, too.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] Okay. So.

Laura Andreasen [00:54:27] But I went and my mom said her advice to me was just keep going back and it will be less and less weird. And I'm like, well, sort of. So. And I still have. I still struggle with the temple. I have always struggled with that. But. But I forced myself to get in line with that and then got called to serve a mission and went out to serve a mission.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] Where'd you go?

Laura Andreasen [00:54:51] I went to the Sydney, Australia Mission South Mission, and I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:54:56] So you had a great mission?

Laura Andreasen [00:54:57] I did. I'm not saying it was easy, and I'm not saying I was the best missionary. I hated stopping people in the street. In fact, I rarely did, if I ever did. We were supposed to, but I just couldn't do it. I'm like, I hate it when people stop me in the streets. I just. I can't do it. And knocking on doors wasn't as bad because I always got a kick out of seeing people look through the door, see us, and then try to sneak away. I'm like, I get you that too, when I'm at home. So it never really bothered me. I didn't love the proselyting part. I was much more service oriented. I enjoyed the service parts more than I did the proselyting.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] Did. Did all the. Did your mission president and did all the missionaries know that you were Elder Ballard's granddaughter?

Laura Andreasen [00:55:46] Yes, and I hated it.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] Like, did you try and not tell people? Did you feel like you had to tell people? Did your mission president already know and he told everybody. How did that.

Laura Andreasen [00:55:57] I did not tell anybody, but he already knew. And I don't know if my grandpa had called him or what happened. And so, you know, it got around. And I heard and I had an elder tell me once that, oh, well, when your grandpa dies, you're not going to be as special. And I was kind of like, what? I mean, that was rude, first of all. But, I mean, that's just how they looked at me, either as competition or as somebody who thought I was better than everybody else. And neither one of those was true. And it was hard, and I had wished that nobody knew.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] And so they treated you as either competition or as, like, better than everybody, right?

Laura Andreasen [00:56:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] And how did that make you? Like, you talked about struggling with not living up to expectations and a culture, perfection. Did that get reinforced during your mission at all?

Laura Andreasen [00:56:55] Oh, probably. I think that especially the companions. Most of my companions were from small little Islands in the South Pacific, and I loved them. But when I got companions from Utah, I always struggled with them because they were more ingrained in sort of that Mormon culture. And I think I was a disappointment to them because I laughed at things that were inappropriate, and I drank Diet Coke and, you know, just these little things that are not that big of a deal that made me a disappointment to other people. And that was hard because I just wanted to be myself.

John Dehlin [00:57:35] But you loved. You loved serving with the Pacific Islanders.

Laura Andreasen [00:57:39] Of course I did. They were funny. They just told me how life was. I mean, when I was riding on a bike, I had a companion who was like, sister Roper, when I ride behind you, your butt looks funny. And I'm like, rude. Like, that was just. But I got to the point where I laughed at that because it was not a big deal. And I loved that about them. They just said stuff and they didn't mean to offend. That's just who they were. And I admired that about them because I didn't have that quality myself.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] So I have to make a shout out to fellow podcaster Gina Colvin, who's from New Zealand, just.

Laura Andreasen [00:58:16] Oh, nice. I do love me a good Kiwi person.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] All right. Okay. So overall, your mission was great. Any awful or wonderful experiences on your mission that you feel like you want to talk about or any ways that your grandpa figured into your mission, or was it just kind of just a great experience?

Laura Andreasen [00:58:41] He probably did figure into my mission in the fact that I always knew that whatever I would do would be reported back to him somehow. Somehow he would hear about it. And it's not like I wanted to do anything bad, but I always felt like I wasn't doing enough. And so that did. It does play into your everyday life, whether or not anybody ever meant it to. It does, but I loved it. I loved the people in Australia. I loved their culture. I loved the fact that they were honest. When you asked them, why weren't you at church on Sunday, they would say, I couldn't be bothered. And I'm like, I kind of like that. That's refreshing. But you try to do that in the U.S. and people just think you're horrible. But I loved that they were very honest about it.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] Yeah. Yeah. Given your upbringing, it sounds like that would have been really refreshing.

Laura Andreasen [00:59:38] Oh, definitely. Anytime anybody tells me truthfully how they feel about something, I love it. And I don't always like to hear it. Maybe it's negative, but I appreciate it. I do.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] Yeah. So there's never a point in Your mission where your grandpa had to get involved or you had to call in anything like that? Are you still there?

Laura Andreasen [01:00:03] Yeah, sorry, I missed that last part. Was there a point in my mission

John Dehlin [01:00:07] where your grandpa had to get involved or you had to call him or anything like that?

Laura Andreasen [01:00:13] No, not necessarily. There was a point in my mission where I got really, really depressed. I think just everything just stressed me out. And so I think he tried to get me to talk to. I can't remember his first name, but one of the area authorities, and. And I was not comfortable doing that, so I think he tried to help me in any way he could, but I. I just wanted to take care of myself,

John Dehlin [01:00:47] so. So you made it through. You were able. You were able to work through that.

Laura Andreasen [01:00:52] Shockingly, that was pre medication days. I don't know how I did it, but you know, I did, and I loved it. And I'll be honest with you, I'm very careful even now to what I say to the people who I taught, who joined the church, because I would hate to be the reason they leave the church. If the church makes them happy, I think they should stay.

John Dehlin [01:01:12] Yeah, you probably feel that about everybody, right?

Laura Andreasen [01:01:15] I do. I have always related to Alma the Younger and even Kori Whore. I've been called Kori whore a few times, and I'm like, whoa, way to give me a Book of Mormon insult. But I've been told I'll regret leading people away. So I'm very careful. I try very hard to not say anything that would influence anybody one way or another.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] Right. Okay, so you served the full 18 months?

Marriage, Divorce, and Disfellowshipping

Laura Andreasen [01:01:46] I did, yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:47] Okay, tell us what happened after that.

Laura Andreasen [01:01:51] After that, I came home and I actually met my future husband in Australia right before I left. He became my district leader, and we did not like each other at all. I think it was because he thought I was supposed to be this type of person, and I was not. And so he had higher expectations for me than he had for the other sister missionaries, and that made me mad. So we didn't really get along very well. But right before I left, I felt bad for it. I had a change of heart. I decided, you know what? You got to give this kid a break. I wrote to him after I was home, and we became better friends. And then when he came home, we hung out a few times and eventually started dating. And we got married in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:02:45] Where was he from?

Laura Andreasen [01:02:46] He was from Southern California, Barstow.

John Dehlin [01:02:49] Okay, and so did your. Did your grandpa perform the wedding ceremony?

Laura Andreasen [01:02:54] He did that. He did.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Okay. And so you Got married. And then kind of take us from then to now.

Laura Andreasen [01:03:05] Well, then we were married about only a year, and I got pregnant with my son quickly, and we got divorced. I struggled with postpartum depression, and he didn't know how to deal with that. I didn't know how to deal with that. And we fought a lot, and we just decided we were going to separate, and that eventually led to us divorcing, but we would get together every now and then, and that's how I got pregnant with my daughter.

John Dehlin [01:03:39] After you'd been divorced?

Laura Andreasen [01:03:41] After we were separated, we weren't divorced yet. And so I think my divorce was final the day after my daughter was born. So then I lived life as a single mom for a while on welfare.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] Real quick, what year were you married and what year were you divorced?

Laura Andreasen [01:03:58] I was married in 2006, and our divorce was final in December of 2008. So we were separated.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] So you were only married two years?

Laura Andreasen [01:04:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] And you were separated for how much of that two years?

Laura Andreasen [01:04:14] Almost a lot of it. Off and on. The majority of it, probably we were separated.

John Dehlin [01:04:19] So it was just a tough marriage.

Laura Andreasen [01:04:21] It was, for sure. Which makes the next part so confusing, the fact that we got remarried like the good little Mormon family we are.

John Dehlin [01:04:30] Okay, real quick. What was it like being the granddaughter of a Ballard to even get divorced? Was that, you know, was it awful? Was it. Was your family embarrassed? Were they supportive? Were they loving? Did you feel shame? What was that like?

Laura Andreasen [01:04:47] I did feel shame, and I'm sure my family was embarrassed, but they were also pretty supportive of me. They helped me go through that entire process and get a lawyer, helped pay for it. I mean, it was just an awful situation to go through. So they were supportive, but I did feel shame, and I'm sure that they were embarrassed.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] Yeah, but you felt loved and supported?

Laura Andreasen [01:05:16] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:05:17] And by your grandparents, too?

Laura Andreasen [01:05:20] Yes, I did feel supported by my grandparents.

John Dehlin [01:05:22] Good. Good. And okay, so you got divorced but then remarried?

Laura Andreasen [01:05:28] Yes, we were divorced about a year. And then, much to my in laws chagrin, we remarried and moved to Southern California. So it was. It was a question that I think everybody had. Why did you get married? And I think we have love for each other, although we are not perfect.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] Sure. Okay. So I take it that marriage didn't last either, that second marriage.

Laura Andreasen [01:06:00] We are still together, and that is so shocking. And honestly, sometimes I wonder, will we make it through this? I know that he is a little more against the idea of leaving the church than I am, so I find it a little Ironic that the church is all about saving families, but so many people divorce after one of the people in the marriage equation leaves the church. So I do wonder what will happen. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] Okay, so you have two children together?

Laura Andreasen [01:06:33] Yes, that's right.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] And you've been married how many years now?

Laura Andreasen [01:06:38] Almost 10 years.

John Dehlin [01:06:39] Almost 10 years. Okay, and you guys live where? What state?

Laura Andreasen [01:06:43] We live in Texas right now.

John Dehlin [01:06:45] And okay, so you're still married?

Laura Andreasen [01:06:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:06:48] All right, congratulations.

Laura Andreasen [01:06:49] Thank you. Every day, right, is a victory in marriage. You gotta love people, but it's work.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] And so he. He right now wants to stay in the church, you're saying?

Laura Andreasen [01:07:01] Yes, he is inactive. He doesn't go to church, but he's not. He has no desire to leave the church.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] Okay, but he's not attending.

Laura Andreasen [01:07:11] No.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] So he still believes?

Laura Andreasen [01:07:14] Yes, he does.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] Okay. Okay. All right. So what. Is there anything else about your story that you think we should talk about before we talk about what caused you to stop believing?

Laura Andreasen [01:07:32] You know, I think a segue into that is an experience I had somewhat recently and not proud of this, but I committed adultery. And so I was.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] Whoa, wait a minute. That's something that people don't normally admit to. So, I mean, that's amazing.

Laura Andreasen [01:07:52] That's another problem. Like, people are very uncomfortable with me saying that my marriage was not perfect. My husband was abusive in a few ways that he has been working on. And when he was at his worst, I was at my most depressed. And I was approached by someone. And this story is actually, I've written about it in my blog, but it's funny because it ties into the church where I met a couple at the pool, at our neighborhood pool, and their son was good friends with my son. And I started talking to them about the church. And I talked to them for about two hours, and I got really excited about it. And I just felt so strongly that I should send the missionaries over there. And they said, yeah, we're interested. We want to know more. So I sent the missionaries over there. And then the next Sunday at church, the missionary said to me, yeah, the guy was like, why would I let you in my house? Get out of here. And I remember being so upset, but I also remember thinking, well, I need to be friends with him. Maybe that's, you know, I need to build up a friendship. And maybe that's how he'll learn about the gospel. Well, when you're in unhappy in your marriage and there's another person in there who's all of a sudden very kind and nice to you, and you've had no relationships other than the one with your husb husband. It's very easy to get caught up in something. And I did not. I've. I suppose I'm very naive and I didn't know how people outside of the church talked to each other and what was appropriate and what was not appropriate and what was flirting and what wasn't flirting. And so eventually it became into an affair. And it didn't start out that way, but that is what happened. And it was not something that I necessarily enjoyed. And I feel like it was more of a self destructive behavior of mine than it was helpful at all. But it happened. And I do admit to that because I believe I've moved past it and I don't want to be labeled with the scarlet A. But so anyway, so I went and told my bishop right after, like I had sex with this person right after I went and told my bishop.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] What year was this?

Laura Andreasen [01:10:22] A bit about just, this was last year.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] Okay.

Laura Andreasen [01:10:27] And I told him, and I said, take my temple recommend, I'm not worthy. And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, what's going on? Talk to me about it. And I said I had sex with someone. And he was kind of like, yeah, sure, give me that temple recommendation. And so then he said, well, we're going to have to have a disciplinary council. And I was very terrified because we are not privy to information in the handbook. So I had no idea what that entailed and it was very scary to me. And that's an issue I have about the handbook. I think it should be available to everybody. So I just said, no, I don't want to do that. Excommunicate me. And he said, I don't feel comfortable with that. I'm not going to. And so I went, I decided I would just try to be tough and get through it. And I went through the disciplinary counsel process and I went through the repentance process. But that is sort of where my doubts or struggles really started to take root.

John Dehlin [01:11:36] How was the process, the disciplinary council process for you?

Laura Andreasen [01:11:41] You know, I did everything I was supposed to do. So it went. It was about six months before I was considered repentant enough or, or my sins were washed away or whatever they say.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] And what were some of the things that you were asked to do in that you were disfellowshipped, I'm assuming?

Laura Andreasen [01:12:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] Okay.

Laura Andreasen [01:12:03] And I was asked to obviously not participate, but to go to church, which is always awkward when somebody asks you to say the prayer and you're just kind of like, what am I supposed to say here?

John Dehlin [01:12:17] What did you say?

Laura Andreasen [01:12:18] I said, I can't. Bishop won't let me. And just because I wanted it, you know, I just. It was already uncomfortable, and I was just like, sorry if it's uncomfortable for everybody else. Like, I apologize. But so it took. I was asked to read the oh so helpful book Miracle of Forgiveness, which is just wonderful. And I think everybody should definitely read that if they want to feel bad about themselves. So I was asked to read that, and I was asked to read several scriptures, and I did all of that and to not take the sacrament. And of course, I had already stopped taking the sacrament.

John Dehlin [01:13:00] And did that feel shame? Did that feel like the process reinforced the shame cycle you had been in for so many years? Like, having to say no to prayers, having to be visible that you couldn't take the sacrament? Like, did you feel like that process reinforced the shame cycle for you or. Not necessarily.

Laura Andreasen [01:13:20] I guess I thought that it was due punishment, and so I. I don't think that part made me feel ashamed. I think the sitting in a room with a bunch of men talking about sexual activity was horrible for me. That was very painful, and it opened up a lot of painful wounds that I did not want to reopen. And that, I believe was very shaming to me. I felt naked in that room of men and very picked apart and judged, and it was disgusting to me. And did they like us?

John Dehlin [01:13:56] Did they ask details, that kind of thing?

Laura Andreasen [01:13:59] I went in and I said, I'm not sharing any details with you. Don't ask. If you want to assume the worst, then assume the worst. Because I was already in enough pain about the situation where I. And I didn't feel like it was any of their business, to be honest with you. And I knew that it would be more painful to me for me to. To express those details. And I said, God already knows. If you want to know. If you want to go and figure out the worst thing I've done, well, just imagine it, and fine. And that may or may not been true. It depends how bad their imagination is. But I just said, I'm not comfortable sharing the details, and I don't think that's something you guys need to know.

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Okay. But it was still not a great process for you.

Laura Andreasen [01:14:47] No, and I don't blame them. They were doing everything they were taught to do. The men in the disciplinary council, I have a lot of respect for them, and I don't think it was easy for them either. But it was still an awful Experience that I would have no desire to ever do again.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] Sure. And just before we talk about what happened after, was there a point where you had to tell your grandma and grandpa what happened? And if so, what was that like?

Telling Family About Leaving the Church

Laura Andreasen [01:15:19] No, I didn't really ever have to tell anyone, but I am the type of person who wants to be open, and I struggle when I keep things inside. Like, I want to be able to tell people my truth, and maybe they'll learn from my mistakes. I mean, I don't learn from anybody else's mistakes, but maybe somebody is smarter than me and we'll learn from my mistakes. So I did tell my grandfather that I was on. When I was on probation. I told him I was on probation, and I. And it was a possibility I could be excommunicated. And he said, well, I don't think you've done anything that you could be excommunicated for. And I'm like, you want to bet? And I was way too uncomfortable to be like, well, I committed adultery. So what do you think about that? You know, that's the sin next to murder. It's horrible. So I never told him that. So if he listens to this, he might be horribly surprised. But he knew that I was going through something.

John Dehlin [01:16:26] So what counsel did he give you?

Laura Andreasen [01:16:28] Well, when I had told him that I wanted to leave the church originally, he told me, go inactive before you leave the church. Don't make those decisions that you can't undo. It's a serious thing. And I think he was trying to get me to realize how serious resigning and getting rid of all of those blessings would be. So his advice was to go inactive, which I thought was funny at the time, but. But it makes sense to me why he would suggest that.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] What about his encouragement around your disciplinary council, though, and the sins you had committed and that sort of thing?

Laura Andreasen [01:17:10] I didn't really talk to him much about that.

John Dehlin [01:17:12] Okay. Or the disciplinary council process.

Laura Andreasen [01:17:15] No, I didn't. Although I have since told him that if my feelings on the handbook and if it had been allowed to be shown to me before any of the things had happened, I would have been perhaps more willing to go in. But the not knowing of the process was terrifying to me, and it made me just want to say, forget it. Excommunicate me.

John Dehlin [01:17:37] Okay. Okay. But you felt. When you told him that you were struggling, you felt the normal love that you. I'm assuming you felt love and support from him.

Laura Andreasen [01:17:48] I did. I feel like he was probably. He has been frustrated with me in the past. I must Be that kind of person who just has a thick skull and can't get stuff in there easily. Because I just can't accept things as easily as other people can. And to my knowledge, the majority of my family can.

John Dehlin [01:18:12] Do you see that now as a vice or a virtue? Like, I could think back to people on my mission, troublemaking elders, and we used to all think of them as the slackers and as the lazy people. And now I look back and I think some of those guys just figured out that the church wasn't what it claimed to be a lot earlier than the rest of us. And they weren't able to be the missionaries we were because they didn't buy it. And so do you see your thick skulledness as a virtue now or as a vice? I'm just curious.

Laura Andreasen [01:18:45] I still am. Not to the point where I see it as a virtue, because I still have so much of that inside me that's saying, you could be wrong. You could be wrong. Questioning this. And I give myself room to say, I could be wrong. That doesn't change my feelings. But I still struggle with seeing it as a good thing versus as a bad thing.

John Dehlin [01:19:10] That's fair. I mean, it's hard to leave this church. It's just right. Okay, so you went through the six months and then what happened?

Laura Andreasen [01:19:20] And then I basically begged the bishop to consider me, repent that. I felt like I had gone through the whole process. I felt like I had worked out my crap. I had started therapy, working through why I had ever felt the need to cheat on my husband. And we worked through some of that deep, dark, terrible stuff in my past, and I felt a lot better. And I felt like I could answer the temple recommend questions honestly. And so I did talk a bit

John Dehlin [01:19:55] about what insight you gained. Why do you think you felt the desire, if you're comfortable, just to help others who may be contemplating infidelity or have been through it themselves? What insight did you gain into why you felt like you did that, and what have you learned from it?

Laura Andreasen [01:20:15] Well, I think all adultery comes from some sort of pain. And the man that I had an affair with is kind of a terrible person, but he is going through his own pain. Not that I care about that anymore, but I think it's all rooted in pain, and there's so much more understanding there. I've always been a pretty sympathetic and empathetic person towards people and their struggles. But now I can honestly say that I cannot look down on anyone because I have been there and I have made these terrible Mistakes that I was pretty judgmental about before. So if nothing else, I'm a kinder person than I was before.

John Dehlin [01:20:59] So you're kinder, but you think you were vulnerable to that because. Why?

Laura Andreasen [01:21:09] Well, because I had a terrible. I, first of all, have terrible self esteem. I think it's getting better. The further I get from the church, the better my self esteem gets, which is a hard thing to wrap my head around. My self esteem was bad. It was terrible because I felt so worthless. Except for the fact that I could produce babies or, you know, I don't know, my self esteem was squashed. I think it was wonderful. When I was a really little kid, I remember feeling so free to be who I was. And then somewhere along the way, I feel like it was lost. Lost somewhere in the depths of church culture.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] Okay, so for you, you feel like you lost who you were, weren't able to cultivate that, and had a lot of insecurities and that that left you maybe vulnerable.

Laura Andreasen [01:22:06] Exactly. I mean, and that's not the case for everyone. For me, it wasn't about sex. It was about trying to connect with someone. And I did it on the wrong. In the wrong way. Absolutely. But we're all reaching out. We're all trying to find connection.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] So you were just trying to emotionally find intimacy with somebody because maybe in your marriage you guys didn't quite have that.

Laura Andreasen [01:22:29] Absolutely. The man that I cheated with was not trying to find that, but I was.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] You were looking for intimacy. Okay. Okay. So you go through the disciplinary council process, you beg to get back in, and what happens?

Laura Andreasen [01:22:47] He believes me, that I am back on track. And quite frankly, I would have been angry if he hadn't, because I really felt. Really felt good. Like I was at a good place with God and everything. And so he gave me my temple recommend back, and I was able to attend one of my cousins weddings. And that was awesome. But that was the only time I went back to the temple. Because, you know, me and the temple have a weird relationship. But just having a temple recommend meant something to me.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] So when would that wedding have been?

Laura Andreasen [01:23:27] That was just this past summer.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] Okay, so just a few months ago.

Laura Andreasen [01:23:31] May. Yep, in May.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] Okay, May. So tell us about what led to you resigning.

Laura Andreasen [01:23:41] I've always, and I'm not proud of this, but I've always felt like I have been in limbo, have been doing some sort of dance with the church where I'm one foot in, one foot out, one foot in. And when I first saw the thing about the handbook changes, I thought, well, that's okay.

John Dehlin [01:24:00] Wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry. I'm happy with you taking us through the chronology from getting back to the temple. You know, people are asking, were there cracks in your testimony? Like, was there. Were there any current events going on that may have influenced it? Did you study church history? So talk to us about the first cracks in your testimony and that it could be from childhood, but then talk us through the process of losing your testimony and take as much time and as much detail as you want to provide, because a lot of people are just. They go through it. They want to know what you went through.

The Process of Losing Her Testimony

Laura Andreasen [01:24:39] Okay. Well, I'm always worried about being boring and shitty.

John Dehlin [01:24:42] No, this is all really good. I'm loving this.

Laura Andreasen [01:24:46] So the first cracks in my testimony absolutely would have started when I was a child, when I saw how people treated one another in the church. For me, that was always a problem. And meaning what? Well, I. Whenever I suggested that I didn't like what was taught, even as a young child or I questioned it, people would just label that as bad attitude. Oh, that's just Laura being Laura. And they brushed off my feelings like they were not valid. Starting from. From way back as a child. And I saw judgment there in church, people and people are not perfect. Nowhere are people perfect. And it's kind of rough that we hold Mormons to a higher standard, but I just. I couldn't see why. There was so much backbiting and mean talk between people who I thought were probably doing their best in the callings they were given. So that was hard for me. I'm a sensitive person. I feel bad for people when I see their suffering. Then, as a teenager learning more about polygamy, I was just disgusted by the whole process of polygamy. And I come from polygamist stock,

John Dehlin [01:26:14] so

Laura Andreasen [01:26:15] that was difficult to kind of figured that part out. And that was something on my mission I hated teaching about. And I definitely tried to brush over it and not talk about it very much, but I didn't know very much about it. I didn't allow myself to sit down and learn very much about polygamy because I was afraid of what I might read. So I ignored that. But that was a crack in the testimony for sure. Seeing the differences of how the young men and young women were treated, how much money went into scouting programs and all of that versus the young women programs, that bothered me also. But I was always. I'm very good at justifying why this stuff could happen. I'm very good at apologizing for the church and taking the Church's position on things. So all of these things led up then just life experiences, watching myself fail at being a good member of the church. That was hard for me, but it created more cracks in my testimony, if you will. Now, I will straight up say to you in full disclosure that I don't know where I am in my testimony. I still believe that it could be true. And I always like to say I leave my mind open for possibilities. But, you know, I just like to never say anything for sure. Like, I can't say for sure that God is or is not there or that Joseph Smith was or was not a liar. I don't really know that, but I question it. So it's just been little things, seeing the church do things. I actually worked at the church office building, and I know people are like, oh, did your grandpa get you that job? To which I always reply, if he got me that job, I wouldn't have been scrubbing dishes down in the church office building kitchen. Like, I would have demanded a better job. But so I worked there for a while and that was hard for my testimony. And just I had somebody accuse me once of shortchanging them when they went through to buy their lunch. And I knew for a fact that I hadn't. And of course I was blamed because I was the lowly cafeteria worker and I had to pay that out of my paycheck. And it was like $10, but that was more than I earned in like an hour and a half. And it bothered me. And I saw, oh, you know, okay. And just a bunch of different things run ins I had with apostles where or stories that I was privy to hear, which I will probably never be privy to hear after this. Just about different things that they had they've said in their personal life, not regarding to the church. That bothered me. But I always said, oh, well, they're a man. That's their man talking, their natural man talking, not their apostle side.

John Dehlin [01:29:41] So without naming names, are you able to talk about the types of things or would you rather not?

Laura Andreasen [01:29:52] Yes, I was neighbors with President Monson's son, one of his sons. And so, man, I hope that this doesn't hurt them, but I heard a story. Just. This is just a little story and it definitely shouldn't change anybody's testimony, but about how he treated somebody on the waitstaff of one of their meals. They have a lot of meals.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] President Monson or the son?

Laura Andreasen [01:30:20] President Monson, Just rude comment about what had been served. I believe it actually wasn't the waitstaff, but the Cook and how he was upset that it wasn't a certain food, and it just turned me off. And I thought, well, is there a sense of entitlement here? Do these men have a sense of entitlement? And they are treated kind of like royalty? And that bothers me, too. But. But just there are so many things that have caused me to question and to wonder, is this a part of. Is this something I want to be a part of?

John Dehlin [01:31:00] And you said you've had run ins with apostles that were tough for you.

Laura Andreasen [01:31:04] Yeah, and it's silly. It's silly, stupid stuff that probably should not affect anybody's testimony. But. But the president, Packer, he was kind of a grumpy old man, and, I mean, he probably didn't feel good, and he was old, and so. I get that. But it was when I ran into him once and I had said something to him, and he kind of just brushed me off, and I just got sick of being brushed off by everyone. And maybe I'm not worth anything to him, but I felt like maybe I should have been. Or we should be, us little peons in the church, you know, we should be. We've got this church up on our shoulders. We're carrying it. We're doing this tons and tons of labor. I feel like we should be treated a little bit nicer than we are. So just small little things.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] So one of the stereotypes that makes ex Mormons really uncomfortable is when people dismiss their leaving the church as being caused by their having been offended. And the stories that you just told, you know, play into that narrative that, oh, okay, oh, we don't have to listen to her anymore because she just got offended and she couldn't take it. That's why she left. How would you respond if somebody tried to dismiss you by saying, oh, well, you don't count because you were just offended?

Laura Andreasen [01:32:29] Well, it's kind of laughable to me, but I've done that to people. I've discounted them because they left because they were offended. And it's wrong. It's just something that happens so often in Mormon culture. I would say, you know, I'm a really forgiving person, and I don't think I could ever make such an important life choice on just being offended. But if somebody does, I think that's totally valid. And who are we to say that your feelings don't matter? People's feelings matter, and we need to remember that, and we need to honor their feelings. And so I would never be caught brushing off somebody's feelings as just Being offended because it's important. We need to learn from that. If we've done something to hurt somebody, we need to figure out how we can help. I thought that was the whole point of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but it doesn't always feel that way. So that would be my somewhat lengthy response.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] So if President Monson or President Packer are rude to the help or. Or brushing off people who are really trying, that would be a concern to you? Why?

Laura Andreasen [01:33:44] Because it's not fair. Trust me, if I wanted to leave the church because I was offended by President Packer being grouchy, I would have left a long time ago. Like, that is. That is just nothing I would leave the church over, really. But it bothers me because everybody is important in the church. Everybody should be treated like they are important, like they are sons and daughters of God. If that is what we profess to believe, then that is what we need to do. We need to act like it, and so many of us don't. And it's important and it's sad, and I wish it would change.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] Okay, so. Has your study of church history or websites or podcasts or blogs or books, have any of those things also been a part of your disaffection from the church? And if so, which ones and what issues? So have you heard of CES Letter? Have you read that? Have you read that?

Laura Andreasen [01:34:52] I tried to read it several times, and I was like, Whoa, this thing's 84 pages long. And several times I would stop reading it because I'm like, that's not important. I still believe it's true. There are so many ways to justify what is in there by saying we don't understand God's plan. But it also, it was good to read it because I think knowledge is power, and I think learning some of these things are good for people. Wow, Like Martin Harris. What a weirdo, right? And so you don't know these things. Growing up in the church, we don't talk about them, but I think it's just so much better if we do read and we do our homework. How can anybody say a church is true if they haven't done their research? And so I have been working on that. I have not read everything out there. I tend to not enjoy argumentative type conversations. And so if I am somewhere where people start fighting, I leave it. I commented sometime on CTR.com, some woman had written an article about why she would not murmur with those who are murmuring. And I wrote mourn or murmur because I see a difference there. And that's all I wrote. And she went back on this big, long, lengthy thing to fight with me. And then a couple other people sort of piled in, and I'm like, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. And I left it because I'm not comfortable fighting or bringing up bad feelings. But I think it's a good thing that I'm starting to look more Mormon stories has really been helpful to me, just knowing that other people are out there who feel what I felt and hearing some of the things people say, I'm like, oh, that's me. I mean, it's silly. We should all know that other people are out there going through similar things, but we don't always, because we're so caught up in the fear of leaving the church and the fear of what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen. But so many people have reached out to me that I don't even know when I started saying, hey, I'm thinking about maybe doing this. What do you think? And I was shocked, really, and pleasantly surprised. Because when you're in the church, you think that people who leave are kind of these, like, scary, mean, antagonistic type people. And then when you get to. To know them, you're like, oh, no, you're totally not like that. So more stories. I'll give you a plug. I'll give you a plug, John. It's been helpful.

John Dehlin [01:37:42] Well, I don't care so much for a plug, but I do like to learn what stories or issues touch people or are meaningful to people, because that's, you know, I'm just always interested in what. What people's experiences are and what's meaningful. So were there any podcast episodes that were particularly touching to you? I'm just curious what reaches you, what reached you?

Laura Andreasen [01:38:11] I feel like I enjoy listening to all of them. I think some people, the majority of people that you've had on, are much more intelligent than I am. But I love to hear just every story. I like to hear how color enters people's lives when they've been in a black and white sort of environment. And so I really think that from somebody as supposedly there's something like ex Mormon royalty, which I was like, what's that like? You guys have your own special royalty. You guys are famous. I guess I'm new to all of it, but. So you've got the people who are high up, and I'm interested in their opinions, but I'm also interested in, you know, your average Joe who. Who's left, and they have real struggles, too, just because they don't have maybe an in with the church. Their stories are still interesting and fascinating to me.

Church History, Polygamy, and Disaffection

John Dehlin [01:39:10] Okay. Did you ever get a chance to learn about the polygamy in depth, like polyand polyandry? Do you know about that? About Joseph Smith marrying women who were married to other men and the age of the women? Like, have you gotten into the details of polygamy at all?

Laura Andreasen [01:39:32] Yes, I did read into that, and it did bother me. I mean, from the time I was young, I never was a fan of this idea of polygamy. And I was always like, well, I want to be in a church that does that. But I was always able to justify it. And I guess it's so hard knowing that Joseph Smith is a relative of mine. For me to be like, oh, what a pervert, you know? So I still. I see that. I don't like it. I don't like that he married other people's wives, but I'm not at the point yet where I can completely write him off. I'm just not there. Check in with me. I might get there eventually, but I'm not there yet.

John Dehlin [01:40:21] Do you know if Hyrum was polygamous?

Laura Andreasen [01:40:24] No, he was not. He was married to a woman named Jerusha, and I believe they had about six kids. And then she died. And then Hyrum remarried Mary Fielding, and that I come from her line. And then as far as I know, he was never sealed to anyone else. That's as far as I know. I figure I probably would have heard about it if he did, if he was.

John Dehlin [01:40:51] So as far as you know, Hyrum was not polygamous?

Laura Andreasen [01:40:54] That's right. As far as I know.

John Dehlin [01:40:55] Okay. Okay. Have you studied, and I'm just curious, have you studied issues around the Book of Mormon, its translation, the historicity issues around the Book of Abraham? Like, have you even gotten into that stuff yet?

Laura Andreasen [01:41:08] Yes, I have. I've read into that. And there's always a part of my mind saying, yeah, this is super dodgy. But then the other part is saying, well, you don't understand everything. You don't understand God's plan, you don't understand this or that. And. And who are you to say that you understand this? Like, the whole wisdom of man versus wisdom of God. So I struggle with that, that it's hard for me to make a decision either way. I know that I don't like a lot of it, and a lot of it seems questionable to me, but I also know that I don't understand pretty Much anything. I'm pretty dumb when it comes to what I understand and what I do not understand in the big scheme of things.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] And I don't want to sort of correct you here. I just want to say that I think just my perspective. I've studied psychology a little bit. I don't like to think of it as dumb or not dumb. I just. Some people are more feeling and intuitive. Some people are more logical and rational. And I just want to say that both perspectives are valid. Some people just. Things don't feel quite right and they don't want or need to dig into the details to just know. It doesn't feel right to them. And I think that's as legitimate. As somebody who's super scholarly, who went to Yale and studies things in depth, I guess I would want to give you that.

Laura Andreasen [01:42:35] Well, thank you. I mean, and that is kind of true. I do generally go on feelings more than I do what is seen in front of me, because I understand that I may not. The logic may or may not fit in with my paradigm of thinking, but I may get to the point where more of that bothers me from a logistical standpoint. I. Like I said, I'm not there yet. I'm relatively new on this whole journey of. I mean, it's been a long time coming, but of allowing myself to read some of this stuff that has always been preached against in my family.

John Dehlin [01:43:15] Right, okay. So. So your story is a little bit different than I'm used to because, you know, most. Most of the, you know, two thirds of the LDS Church is inactive. Right. And resignation is a really sort of severe kind of extreme step that, you know, more people are taking these days, but it's still relatively rare. I mean, I couldn't even resign. I sort of had to force them to excommunicate me because I don't think I would have been willing to take that step personally. And so you've taken it. But you've taken it. Still not sure whether you believe in Joseph as a prophet or not and the Book of Mormon is scripture or not. So talk to us about why you would take that extreme step. And yet you're still ambivalent about whether you believe or not. Why? What led to you resigning?

Laura Andreasen [01:44:12] I think that I am on a quest for peace and happiness, and I think so many other people are on that same quest. And I do not feel peace and happiness within the church. And that is my own personal struggle. And so everybody's reasoning may be different. I'm not sure how I feel about the Truthfulness or not. But I do know one thing, and it's something that I've slowly learned. I was raised to believe in a very terrifying and scary God. And it has taken me years and years and years to come to my own personal belief that that is not my God. That is not the God that I want to believe in or do believe in. And so I believe even though I am choosing to leave, I mean, they may not let me leave without a fight. And I'm kind of thinking I will have to fight to leave. I think that there may be plays to get me to not leave. But I believe that if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true and I leave anyway, I think there's room in there for me still. If we all die and we find out, hey, we left the church, but it was right anyway, I still believe that God is going to say, you can still join us. I still truly believe that. And if it's not true, then I'm going to be okay, too. I just want to enjoy my life. I want to enjoy it without constantly worrying about where I am. And I want to be outside and just enjoy being outside and not worry about my next steps to eternal progression. There's so much stress and so much pressure, and I feel like my kids are going to have a better life outside of the church than inside the church. Now, granted, My daughter is 7. She does want to be baptized when she turns 8. And I will let her make that decision, although I wish that I had chosen not to when I was 8. But, you know, it's a rough patch, and I really hope people don't think of me as hypocritical. I feel that I'm just trying to be honest and saying I don't know everything. I don't know how I feel about everything. But I know that being outside of the church, I'm happier than when I'm inside of the church.

John Dehlin [01:46:42] And so for you, you're resigning because the church brings you sadness and not joy, right?

Laura Andreasen [01:46:50] And people always like to say, it's true or it isn't. It's very simple. I don't believe anything is simple. I think there are a million different shades of gray. Unfortunately, I was always raised with the black and white thinking, and I've come to learn through my own life experiences that nothing is black and white. Everything has a million different shades in between. And I just want people to find happiness wherever. If it's in the church, then find it in the church. If it's outside of the church, then find it outside of the church.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] Are there teachings in the church that you don't believe in? Like any of the doctrines or teachings, historical or current, that you actually object to?

Laura Andreasen [01:47:39] Now, are we talking doctrines or are we talking policy or. I mean, we getting into the semantics or are we just.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] No, no, no. I mean, so there's, you know, it sounds like you still believe in God. It sounds like you still believe in Jesus. It sounds like you're on the fence about the restoration. Maybe God was behind it, maybe he wasn't. It sounds like you're on the fence about the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham is scripture, but you still have tender feelings about them. So, you know, and then I'm thinking through the temple recommend questions, like, you know, I'm wondering, so, like, sustaining Thomas S. Monson as prophet. Like, a lot of people even wonder if he has his full faculties, if he has dementia, like, do you have. Where are you on that?

Laura Andreasen [01:48:33] You know, if somebody were to hold a gun to my head and say, tell me one way or the other, there's no in between, I would err on the side of caution and say, yeah, you know, I feel like he is a prophet. Now, saying that is hard because I. There's always that room for doubt. And I do have. I have doubt as to whether or not they are prophets. I do think that they believe they are. And so I don't think that they're trying to do it for any. I'm always asking myself, what's the end game? Okay, say the whole thing is fake. Say everybody's lying. What's the end game? Is it money? Is it power? What is it? And I just can't ever seem to align any sort of mischievous end game with what they're doing. So I would still say, yes, I believe that he is a prophet, but he could prove me wrong tomorrow. I mean, ask me in a few months, maybe after gone through the whole process, I'll change my mind. I'm sorry, that's not a great answer.

John Dehlin [01:49:50] No, that's a great answer. I don't want any answer other than what you really think and feel. And that's great. What about the church's policies on LGBT people and on women and the priesthood, those types of things.

Laura Andreasen [01:50:07] I don't like any policy that hurts someone. And that is where I do struggle. When I see people hurting, I wonder, how can that be right? How can that be true if so many people are hurting? Because I've been there, I've been hurting in the church and it's not necessarily because I was gay or because I wanted the priesthood, but it was because I was hurting for other things in the church. And so I don't agree with those. I don't necessarily feel the need to get behind the women in the priesthood thing because I feel like if I'm not in the church, it doesn't really matter. But I feel like if I were in the church, I could get behind that. I could get behind anything that's for equality. I disagree with taking away anybody's choice to be baptized. So I disagree with that policy. And I've told my grandpa just as much that I disagree. And I think that was surprising a little bit to him. And he did send all of us as a family an email saying, before you jump to conclusions, it's wise to do all your research. And he said, watch the thing with Elder Christofferson and read some scriptures. And I did. I did all of that before I jumped to any conclusion. And afterwards I emailed him back and I said, I still can't get behind that. I don't agree with it. I'm sorry. Still love you, but I don't love that. And I don't agree with it. I don't know. I can't feel peace with that.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] Did he respond?

Laura Andreasen [01:51:54] No, I have not heard from him since, actually. So I did tell him I had sent in my resignation, and I have not heard back from him.

John Dehlin [01:52:06] Who'd you send it to?

Laura Andreasen [01:52:08] I sent it to the church records department. I also told my bishop, so we'll see. I mean, I sent my bishop the same type of thing because I pretty much realized it would just get sent to him anyway. And he sent me an email saying, hey, remember when you got your temple recommend back and you were so good and you were in such a good place in your life? Remember that? I was like, yeah. But I feel like I'm in a better place now, so I think it will be a battle for me to leave. I'm not sure they're going to take that resignation well, and it sounds like

John Dehlin [01:52:48] you yourself aren't totally sure. It sounds like you're ambivalent about it.

Laura Andreasen [01:52:53] You know, it's so hard to leave. I feel good about it. I feel good about my decision to leave, but I. It's. It would be easier to leave if I thought everything was fake and everything was a lie, but I can't say I truly believe that. And so that makes it harder to leave in a lot of ways. But I do feel good about leaving and. And that is why I made that decision.

John Dehlin [01:53:23] And you're gonna go with how you feel in the end.

Laura Andreasen [01:53:25] Always.

John Dehlin [01:53:27] Always. Okay. All right. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.com music for this episode was provided by the Lower lights and other sources.

Laura Andreasen [01:53:52] Cease to make me whole when with the wounded heart Anger or malice

John Dehlin [01:54:10] I

Laura Andreasen [01:54:11] draw my myself apart Searching my soul.

John Dehlin [01:58:27] Sam.

Part Two Introduction and Ballard's Strengths and Weaknesses

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 589

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Laura Andreasen [00:00:36] The kindly light amid th encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Hello, and welcome back to part two of my interview with Laura Andreasen. Right. Is that you pronounce it?

Laura Andreasen [00:00:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Granddaughter of M. Russell Ballard and Barbara Ballard, right?

Laura Andreasen [00:01:08] That is correct.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] All right, so in. In the first part of this interview, we focused on your own experiences growing up in the church, on the things you've loved about the church, about your relationship with your grandparents and your parents, and all the way through sort of, you know, your mission years, your marriage, struggling with marriage, and eventually struggling with the church. And we concluded with something that I think is really interesting, which is sort of this idea that if the church is true, even if you resign, there'll still be a place for you because God's loving and the main reason you've resigned from the church is, is that it doesn't bring you joy. And the gospel is supposed to be about joy, and it doesn't bring you joy as hard as you've tried. Right?

Laura Andreasen [00:02:02] That's correct.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] Yeah. So that's. I think that's really interesting. And so even now, you remain ambivalent about the truthfulness of the church. You're still very open and maybe even lean towards believing in many or most of the truth claims, but you definitely don't agree with the church's stance on LGBT issues, same sex marriage, and its recent policies about children. Is that all fair or did I get it right or wrong?

Laura Andreasen [00:02:30] No, that's right. And, you know, I do worry that. That people are going to be bothered by that, but that. That is my honest opinion. Like I said, check on me. In a few months, I may have done more research or. Or learned something new and I might feel a different way. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Okay, got it. All right, so now what I've done is I put together a big old list of questions that the listeners have put forward, and I'm just going to ask them to you one by one. Is that okay?

Laura Andreasen [00:02:58] All right, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] Okay. So a Big line of questioning just is around your dad specifically. And, you know, a lot of people want to know his strengths and weaknesses. And you've already talked a bit about the fact that he's been loving and supportive, as has your grandmother, but that maybe he was apostle first and grandfather second. Any other strengths and weaknesses that you would want to highlight or do you think we've pretty much covered it. Also, maybe a weakness of sometimes brushing you off when you have difficult things you want to talk about or not wanting to talk about difficult things. And, and his views on women haven't been great. So I'm just trying to recap.

Laura Andreasen [00:03:50] Yeah, no kidding. I think a weakness of his is that he, in my point of view, struggles with being empathetic. And I think that's a hard, that must be a really difficult struggle to have as an apostle when you are supposed to be leading so many people. I feel like there should be more empathy there. And maybe there is, but he's terrible at showing it. I'm not sure. So I think that is a weakness that I know he has, but hopefully he's working on it. Hopefully, but I don't know. And as for strengths, he is, as much as he struggles with empathy, I do think he is a good person. I think he is honest. I think he has integrity. And he, he is kind. He's just, he is stern. And that can sometimes be looked upon as being unkind. But I think he, he's got a good heart.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] Okay. And I, I, I'm very glad to hear that. And that, that makes sense to me. And I, you know, a lot of people like, like this, we'll talk about the lipstick comment later. But a lot of people, you said he struggles with empathy. I think that that's one perception. And then people are just wondering whether he's just kind of insensitive or clueless. And some like to attribute many of the apostles to just having been raised in World War II, sort of post World War II, Cold War kind of era. I mean, he's just old and that older people were raised with more, let's just say, chauvinistic or masculine or sensitivities that make it so they just are insensitive. And one of the listeners asked, does he know that he's insensitive? Does he know that he and the other brethren, too many, come across as chauvinistic or bigoted? Do you think they're aware, do you think he's aware of that?

Laura Andreasen [00:06:06] He should be. I've told him as much, but I don't think that they are aware of that. I think they are very. And he has said this before, probably in a conference talk. I don't even know half the time if it's in a conference talk or if it's something he's just said. But about how people say that the brethren are out of touch, but in reality they are very much in touch and they, they do travel and they do see the world. And I will give him that he does travel and he does see the world, but when he travels and sees the world, he sees it in a bubble. And that bubble is a bubble of the brethren that are there to meet him and to take him to his meetings and all of this stuff. He's not meeting your average Joe and Jane member of the church over there. He's meeting the higher up people in the church. And so in that aspect, yeah, I think he is a little bit out of touch. I think he's a little bit out of touch. He probably just a little bit insensitive and yeah, he is old. It's all of the. It's everything. I think it's not fair to just say it's one thing. I think it's a little bit of everything.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] And there's a bit of a sort of. You know, I know when I worked in corporate America, I worked at Microsoft with Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer and and to see these executives, you know, when the time I was there, the Department of Justice was suing Microsoft and there was just this level of they surrounded themselves with people who agreed with them and it just made it so that they never had anyone around them telling they were full of crap and if they did maybe they would fire them or get rid of them. And so there was just this sort of king who doesn't have clothes and either they're built up to where they just dismiss any critical feedback like you've given him or they just don't ever hear it. I don't want to impose that on him. But do you think that's semi accurate in terms of what it's like to be an apostle?

Laura Andreasen [00:08:09] Yes, absolutely. I don't think many people dare question anything, especially to their faith, because of all the shame that goes with not being faithful if you question. So I think there's that and I do think that people, either they won't say it or they do. And maybe he does write people off as unfaithful. I know I'm probably pretty easy to write off as unfaithful because I do question things and I Question them louder than maybe they would like me to question them.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] And how would that make you feel if you were a fly on the wall and other Ballards were talking about you and they're all, that Laura, she's crazy or she, you know, she got kicked out of high school and she, she's had mental illness or she's, she's been suicidal. Like you can't. If you, I imagine that that's probably what he would say and what others would say. Because even if you're a person of privilege with money and with status and with, you know, health and well being, if you ever go against the church, you're going to be slandered, you are going to be discredited, criticized, maligned. That's just what they do. I imagine that in some ways you will be an easy target because you've struggled, you've even admitted, you know, infidelity. And so do you imagine that that's what they're going to do, what he's going to do? And if so, how does that make you feel? But more importantly, what would your response be to people who malign or discredit you because of the struggles you've had?

Laura Andreasen [00:09:55] Well, it's not new to me. It's been said before and I've. Not long ago, my mother in law, I overheard it said, what's going on with Laura? I heard that she's just a gay loving adulteress something or other. She's just saying it all on her blog and, and I overheard it and I overheard her say she wanted to take my kids away and it was painful. And it's something that I hear often from my parents, from my aunts and uncles, from my cousins. I think they love me, but I think they disregard me very easily. And it's hard. And it's not just hard for me. It's hard for everybody who leaves the church because you want to feel like your feelings are important and you matter. And when it happens, I'm not even going to say if because I know it will. You know, my go to is always to just let it go and to leave it alone. And I probably will let them say what they have to say, but I will just encourage them to be kind and compassionate and try to look at other people's points of view. And that's kind of what I feel like. I've been trying to ease them into it. Like I've gotten tattoos and I've done other things. So I'm like trying to ease them into the fact that, hey, I'm not maybe what you want me to be. And then this was maybe the final straw. I don't know. Or maybe talking to you is the final straw. Most likely it starts. Speaking out about it would be more upsetting to them than feeling it myself, you know?

John Dehlin [00:11:44] Have you ever heard of Brene Brown? Does that name mean anything?

Laura Andreasen [00:11:47] I love Brene Brown. Let me tell you how much I love Brene Brown. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Okay, so that's. You know, that's interesting, because one of the best questions I received is, does, has elder Ballard, has grandpa Ballard ever expressed vulnerability? Have you ever seen him show weakness or admit frailty or mistakes or vulnerability? That's sort of part one of the question. And then part two is, you know, you just said it. You said that the. That the straw that breaks the camel's back might be you simply telling your story and being open and vulnerable. I've been very moved and touched by your honesty and vulnerability here. You. You're willing to accept responsibility. You're willing to admit your own mistakes. You're not pointing the figure. You're willing to be kind and critical, but balanced. And I just see that as good, healthy openness and candor and vulnerability, the kind of stuff that leads to positive mental health. But I just wonder to what extent there's a culture of vulnerability and openness and candor in your family.

Laura Andreasen [00:12:57] First of all, thank you. That was, like, super nice. Some of the nicest things anybody's ever said about me, which may answer your next question about how vulnerable people are. Okay. No, I do not recall ever seeing my grandfather vulnerable. My sister died when she was a baby, and I've had two other cousins die, and I don't even remember seeing a vulnerability there or. And I always attributed it to the fact that he knew, you know, where they were and all about the afterlife and everything like that. And my parents know there's no. My father in particular has never said he was wrong. And so that is kind of the male role models I've had. They refused to admit that they're wrong and that they're sorry. So, no, I have not ever seen him be vulnerable. I don't have good role models on what that's like.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] So there's a degree to which in your family, the men have to be strong and confident and reaffirm the gospel. And that means they can't show signs of weakness or. Or maybe even be too sensitive about weakness or tragedy, that it's always got to be stiff upper lip. Church is true Gospel's great plan of Happiness. Is that fair?

Laura Andreasen [00:14:24] That's right. Yeah. Well, we are of British stock, so we've got that stiff upper lip, I guess. Except for me, I sort of failed with that one, but.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Or succeeded.

Laura Andreasen [00:14:34] Yeah, I guess. But yeah, they. And I think for my grandpa, it's probably twice as hard for him. And he probably feels more pressure than other people to not show that vulnerability. But I don't get it, because everybody likes Elder Holland because he shows his vulnerability. So I'm like, grandpa, can't you be a little bit more like Elder Holland and like, pound the pulpit and cry every now and then? But, you know, he's just not like that.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] I'll just say that just in your dad's defense, your grandpa's defense. I think lately, you know, I've had interactions with Elder Holland and he seemed very sincere and loving. But then he'll give other talks where he seems very angry and critical. And then Elder Eyring is really known for his crying. But there's another side to that where sometimes those things can feel like emotional manipulation. And so I just think there's trade offs there because I never could make sense of Elder Holland's shows of empathy with me, with how insensitive he would be when he would talk in public. And so I don't know. That's just.

Laura Andreasen [00:15:46] No, that's true. I think a lot of people do feel manipulated, and I get that. I do. And that's unfortunate.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Yeah. Okay, so. So the answer is Grandpa Ballard has never really shown a lot of vulnerability that you've seen, and that. That's just not really valued in your family.

Ballard's Views on LGBTQ Issues and Personal Witness

Laura Andreasen [00:16:06] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] Would you say, you know, what's the. Of all your. Your grandparents, you know, the Ballard's children and grandchildren, how many, you know, within that family tree is there is inactivity or disbelief rare or not rare? And then as a second part, what about other. Do you ever have exposure to the families of other apostles? And is that rare or not rare, just sort of inactivity or apostatizing or whatever. So start with your family and then go outside in my family.

Laura Andreasen [00:16:43] And it's a large family, very large family. I believe I am the only one who has been inactive or expressed any desire to leave the church.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] Of all the grandchildren.

Laura Andreasen [00:16:59] Of all the grandchildren.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] So we're talking probably 30 grandchildren.

Laura Andreasen [00:17:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] And you're the only one. So what is that like? How do you explain that?

Laura Andreasen [00:17:11] Well, I've always been a bad seed. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] I mean, obviously two thirds of all people baptized in the church have left it. So there are only 5 million active Mormons. But even so, in the United States, the Pew foundation said that a third of all those who are raised LDS end up leaving. So for grandkids raised Mormon and children and grandchildren raised Mormon, there's a 1 in 3 chance they're going to go inactive traditionally. And I'm certainly aware of children and grandchildren of apostles and other families who have gone inactive or left the church. You know, Steve Benson comes to mind, or I know President Kimball had an inactive child or two, and I know a few of Neal A. Maxwell's grandkids who have left the church, or Joseph B. Wirthlin. So, I mean, I. I know that it happens that the children and grandchildren of apostles can go inactive, but in your case, that's a really high success rate for your grandparents. What do you attribute that to? I'm not saying what's wrong with you. I'm saying how can you show any of them?

Laura Andreasen [00:18:32] I really don't know. I will question how happy they are, but I can't. Sure, they would tell you that they're all very happy, but I question it.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Why? I mean, I don't want you to tell any names or any specifics, but why would you question that?

Laura Andreasen [00:18:49] Well, I told you, we've all got. We've got some crazy going on in my family. I used to joke that insanity runs in our family because it really means.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] You don't mean just your parents and siblings. You mean aunts and uncles and cousins.

Laura Andreasen [00:19:02] Yes, definitely. It's on both sides, but it's particularly bad on the Ballard side of my family. A lot of anxiety and depression. And so I wonder about their happiness only because I wondered about mine. And I know how the church affected me and my happiness and my anxiety. And so I wonder about them, but I also see that they could be afraid to do anything else. Most of them also were born and raised in Utah, so that might play a part in it. The culture is much more strong there. I don't know. But I do know they are faithful people, and I believe that they all have a testimony of the church.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] Let's just say someone is the grandchild or child of an apostle. What would be the dynamics, the feelings, the pressures that would keep them from being able to be open and honest and maybe even doubt? What would that be like?

Laura Andreasen [00:20:04] Well, I think that my. One of the biggest reasons I've never wanted to say anything that could possibly hurt the church is because there is a sort of mantle of responsibility that's inherited. It's not something I ever wanted or would have agreed to do. But. But we. You know, I do see the good in the church, and I would hate for myself or my actions to convince someone to leave if the church made them happy. I would never want somebody to leave what was making them happy for something that would make them unhappy. And so I think that is a big reason why a lot of us don't ever speak out, maybe if we disagree, because we don't want to be the person that leads people away. I mean, I would love to lead people to their true happiness, whatever that means, but I would never want to make anybody unhappy.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] Sure, sure. And so you people within your family, because your grandpa's an apostle, would feel the sense of duty to keep the family name going, to be supportive of the family's values, and to never cause anyone to leave?

Laura Andreasen [00:21:26] Right, sure. There's a big push on our heritage. My grandpa talks about our heritage all the time. In fact, didn't he write a book called Our Heritage? Oh, no, that's the other church book. I was like, there's something called Our Heritage. But, yeah, he is big, big, big, big on our family tree. And I think he probably feels a lot of pressure not to let him down. Our ancestors down as well.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] Yeah, Yeah. I imagine that pressure can be really overwhelming.

Laura Andreasen [00:22:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] And I imagine, like you say, people are sincere in their beliefs too. Okay, so do you. This is a question that I think is valuable. Do you know if your grandfather has ever known a gay or lesbian person firsthand, like a close family member or close friend? Is. Is he able to sort of keep it at arm's length, and that's how he's able to have such sort of harsh policies or support harsh policies. Do you think this has ever. You know, you talked about him being maybe a little bit insensitive or lacking empathy in some ways. Do you think a part of that has just been a lack of exposure in terms of LGBT concerns or even faith crisis issues? Do you think it's just maybe never really touched him in a personal way, and that's what allows him to be not empathetic or insensitive about things like faith crisis, feminism, or LGBT issues?

Laura Andreasen [00:23:04] Yes, as far as I know. I mean, and he knows a lot more people than I do, but I do not know of any gay or lesbian people or transgender people that he knows personally. He could. There's nobody in my family who is gay, lesbian, or transgender that you know of. And I always say get. Because, you know, we have kids who are having Kids. I mean, there's gotta be one somewhere. I'm kind of like, is it bad that I'm rooting for some of them to come out and just, like, just be proud and be who you are? Because I think it's good. I think it would be wonderful for the Brethren to sort of have those experiences, because how else can you learn something like that unless it's really touched your heart? It's easy to push somebody aside as a group of people that you have nothing in common with, but when it's one of your own, it's a different story. So as far as I know, he doesn't have any of those experiences. And that may contribute. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] Okay. So in all your cousins, aunts, uncles, you're not aware of anyone ever coming out as gay or lesbian? I imagine that the same pressures that would keep a grandchild from ever doubting or leaving the church would keep a gay or lesbian cousin from ever wanting to admit to Grandma and Grandpa that they're gay or lesbian, right?

Laura Andreasen [00:24:30] Oh, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I would imagine that would be very difficult. In fact, I. Every time I say something on Facebook, I'm always pretty sure people are gonna think that I'm coming out as gay. And I'm always like, I wish. Come on, people. It would be. I would be a fabulous lesbian. But, you know, I'm not. So I always think it's kind of funny. People get all nervous about that, but I'm waiting for it to happen. It's bound to happen with the amount of kids that are in our family. So it'll happen.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] And that's. You know, I'm just trying to think about how the Brethren do what they do. Like, they're human. And, you know, the biggest question is, do they really believe, or are they just like the wizard of Oz behind the curtain? And you've already said, you know, I'll just ask you directly, you think that the Brethren. Do you think that the Apostles and the First Presidency sincerely believe the Church is true, or do you think they're just, you know, fooling everybody?

Laura Andreasen [00:25:37] I do believe they think it's true. And I think that it could also be one of those situations that. So say they get up there and they're called, and they supposedly have this special witness, and so say they don't get that special witness. Well, then if Mormon culture has taught me anything, I would imagine they would be beating themselves up, like, what am I doing wrong? I'm not faithful enough. I'm not this enough. And so I think it's really easy for us to continually tell ourselves, well, we haven't gotten a special witness, so I must be doing something wrong. So that's just total hypothetical. If you get called to be an apostle and you don't have that special witness, you'll be trying to figure out what you're doing wrong. So I could see how that could happen. I truly believe that they. That they believe what they're saying is true.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] Right. And it just makes sense to me if they're in this bubble where nobody, everybody's scared to tell them what they really think and feel. If vulnerability is downplayed and discouraged, and if they're always sheltered and protected from people's real problems and concerns to the point where a gay or lesbian grandkid may not even feel comfortable coming out to them or a doubter or a feminist or whatever, then they don't have the experiences that would lead to empathy or understanding. They don't have anyone around them disagreeing with them. And the whole culture is, you know, they carry more than anyone the pressure to believe and to keep the family name strong and to carry on the tradition. And those pressures in and of themselves can explain why they believe when there's so much that's, you know, difficult.

Laura Andreasen [00:27:24] It's kind of a catch 22. So say they get up there and have doubts, they're probably going to blame themselves instead of questioning the truth, because that's been so ingrained into all of us. So that just seems logical to me for a believer who gets up there instead of doubting, to question what they're doing wrong instead.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] Yeah. So this sort of, you know, you touched on this question that was certainly the most asked question, is that, you know, have they had a special witness with Christ? You know, and there's even. There's even people who say that they've heard either directly from your grandpa or from others telling stories about your grandpa that they would, like, look at them and say, I know in ways that you don't, that Jesus lives. And so how is that talked about in your family? Is it ever directly addressed? Is it forbidden to even talk about it? Talk about that personal witness of Christ expectation or assumption that we have or myth that we have about apostles.

Laura Andreasen [00:28:39] Okay, first of all, it's obnoxious that anybody would ever say, I know in ways that you don't. I mean, it might be true, but it's still annoying and it bothers me, but I can see him saying it. So I'm not calling anybody a liar. It is a very, very, very taboo Subject. And I remember my grandpa came to one of my wards once and he decided to do like a question and answer type thing. And I was thinking to myself, please don't let anybody ask if he's seen Jesus. First question asked, have you seen Jesus? And I was like, oh, I was so embarrassed. Like, the gall of that person to ask that. Right? But then I get it. Like, of course people want to know that, but it's very taboo. I've never straight up asked him. He's never offered that. But we are all led to the assumption that, yes, he has had that experience. He has not told us anything about it. And he said it's something that's too sacred to share and he wouldn't share it. And so I am not privileged enough to know that information. But wouldn't it be cool if he just didn't tell us because Jesus was black? You know, I'm just kidding. Totally not. That's not what would happen. But, yeah, it's a very taboo subject. And I unfortunately cannot enlighten you all as to whether or not he has seen Jesus, because he's.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] What you can't say is it's never been stated and he's never talked about it, and everybody's scared to it. He's alluded to it.

Laura Andreasen [00:30:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] And you already went there because a few minutes ago you're talking about how you're theorizing that they get there, they're supposed to have that special witness that maybe they don't, and that then they internalize that or justify it in some way. So is that. Can I take from that, that you aren't necessarily convinced that that's what happens?

Laura Andreasen [00:30:48] I really don't know, but I could see it happening that way. I have no idea if they have seen Jesus Christ or not. Like, I have got no idea. So. But I could see how. If I could see how they would question themselves before they question the truth of the church.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] Yeah, that's powerful. Okay, so there's probably a lot of perceptions about. From members about what it's like to be an apostle and what they're like and what they're not. Like. Someone asked, what are the correct and incorrect perceptions about what it's like to be an apostle? Would you have any insight on that at all? Or is that too vague or hard of a question for you to answer?

Laura Andreasen [00:31:45] Well, I think it's. It's got to be hard for members of the quorum of the 12 to try and get people to understand when they're speaking as an apostle. And when they're speaking as just an individual, I think they probably struggle with that. I really. I only have insight on what it's like to be an apostle's granddaughter. And so I only know what I know there. But I do imagine it is tough. And they struggle with being in the public eye, constantly making a stupid comment and then having it rehashed over and over and over. And I think that's got to be hard. It's got to be difficult for them.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] How about all that travel? Like, you know, a lot of people who would defend them say, you know, it's not a fun life to always be on the road, to always be traveling, to always be missing your kids and grandkids, to be sacrificing what many would say is retirement in those golden years and they're off as road warriors. Is that true or is it not true?

Laura Andreasen [00:32:57] That is definitely true. They are constantly working, and I would never want that job. It seems horrible. Like, I would never, ever, ever wish that upon anybody because that is their life and they don't get out of it until they die. And that just sounds terrible, and it takes a toll on them. I think that it's. It's gonna be really hard. I don't think it's presumptive of me to say I don't think they enjoy it, but I don't know how they possibly could. Unless they're extremely egotistical, which maybe they are. I mean, but I don't see how anybody could enjoy that life.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] But he would never admit that, right? Because that's part of the deal.

Laura Andreasen [00:33:47] I think he would admit that it's very difficult and it's time consuming. But I don't think he would be as crass to say, I hate this job. I might, but I'm not an apostle.

Apostle Finances, Perks, and Inner Workings

John Dehlin [00:33:59] So do you have any insight into how the brethren, the apostles, see each other? Whether they bicker and fight, whether they dislike each other, whether they're really close and get along well and love each other. Do you get any insight into that dynamic between apostles and prophets?

Laura Andreasen [00:34:19] Well, my grandpa has said anytime you get 15 people together from varying backgrounds, and varying backgrounds is interesting. Like how varying are you backgrounds, but whatever, that you're going to have differences of opinion. And he says there are differences of opinion and people disagree. I've never actually seen or heard of any times where they dislike each other or bicker with each other, but I would imagine they disagree with each other. They've got to. But I think they also don't really talk about it because they've got a front that they need to keep up.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] So your grandpa would have never said that old boy K. Packer's a jerk or Jeffrey Holland really thinks he's something. You know, he would never, he would never make comments like that.

Laura Andreasen [00:35:11] I. It's a good thing he doesn't because I'd remember him and bring him up later, but no, he doesn't. Although I. Sure he probably thinks it occasionally.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, just this theme of like, you don't talk about stuff and you don't show vulnerability, that's coming up again and again and it just sounds like that's just a very strong part of your family culture.

Laura Andreasen [00:35:41] Absolutely. It's hard. I don't like it, but that is definitely the way it is.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] Yeah. Okay. A huge question that people asked is around the salary, compensation and finances of being an apostle. And you know, I don't know if you know this, but there's this CES former CES instructor named Grant Palmer who is reported to have had a private meeting with a former high up member in the quorum of the 70 who made the claim that when someone is called as an apostle, they receive a large amount of money, like some say as much as a million dollars that they can use to pay off all their debts. And it's a loan, but it's forgivable as long as they observe whatever rules are tied to that loan. And so they're able to sort of pay off all their debts, buy a vacation home, and then be financially stable and secure. And then the word rumor is that there's some sort of salary between 3 and $400,000 with really, really good benefits and obviously a pension for life. Now, I'm going to guess you're going to give me the same answer, which is you have no idea what his compensation is. But how would you. Would that seem preposterous to you or would that seem in the realm of possibility?

Laura Andreasen [00:37:10] That would seem within the realm of possibility. I do know that they receive enough. But see, they, they won't, as your theme is correct. They won't come out and say, hey, you know, this is what I get, or whatever. I mean, I will ask, I'll straight up go in and ask, hey, is this true? And I'll see what he says if he ever talks to me, or I'll ask my mom. But I think I know they receive enough to live on. But what that means to me is very little, because that could be a large amount or a very small amount. All I know is I don't see any of it. And that sucks because if they're getting a million dollars, spread the wealth, man. So it's within the realm of possibility. And I will ask and see what is said or not.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Okay. You know, in terms of like, you know, I've heard of certain apostles having multiple homes and vacation homes in Heber and Midway and you know, a high rise condominium and do you. Do you get a sense or vacation, you know, places to vacation? Do you have a sense that he has lots of assets? That would mean that he's done really well.

Laura Andreasen [00:38:32] Well, I know for a fact that he does not have lots of assets. And I don't remember the last time he and my grandma took a vacation. When they go do something, it's usually with family, with my aunts and uncles, or with whomever he only owns. And I believe that I would know this. He is just in a condo right now. It's a smallish condo. It's right beneath the floor of where President Monson lives so they get to hear all the wild parties going on up there and pound on the roof with a broom. So he lives right below there.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] Is this in City Creek or somewhere else?

Laura Andreasen [00:39:11] It's right across from the. Well, it's right by the church office building and across from the temple. So I can't remember the name of. Is it State Street? I think it's right off of. Or north. North Temple? I can't remember. It's been like it hasn't even been that long since I've been to Utah. But it's right by the church administration building.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] Okay. And that's a building where maybe many of the apostles live.

Laura Andreasen [00:39:39] As far as I know, only himself and President Monson live there. My grandpa lives recently moved there from another condo because my grandma's struggling. And it's just closer so he can get to and from work through the secret tunnels.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Okay, so not a bunch of extra homes and vacation homes.

Laura Andreasen [00:40:01] No, I'm sure that others do, but in all honesty, a lot of the other apostles were more well off to begin with, so that could very well be their money.

John Dehlin [00:40:12] Okay. Right. Okay. What about special perks for apostles and their family members? You know, you hear about jets being offered for them to take sort of extravagant vacations. You hear about a fleet of rental cars being available for family members to use. You wonder about what happens during general conference if you get behind the scenes. Special VIP treatment with food and amenities, trips, you know, and again, this may all just be rumors. So. Yeah, Are there perks to being. What? Are the perks to being an apostle or the children of apostles or grandchildren of apostles, or are there none?

Laura Andreasen [00:40:56] Well, y' all are going to be real disappointed because really, the only perk is we get to have a conference ticket for the session that he speaks in.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] Oh, my gosh.

Laura Andreasen [00:41:08] That is our perk. I mean, and really, I'm not even sure we deserve that. And I always give mine away because I don't want to go to conference. But other people, you know, most of my other cousins love to go. I don't, but that's just me. And for, like, the music musical thing they do every Christmas, there's usually tickets available for family for that. I've never been in a rental car or a super cool airplane. I did get to ride through the secret tunnels on a golf cart once, so that was pretty fun.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] I've even done that.

Laura Andreasen [00:41:48] That's about the extent of my. I know. It's really not that exciting about. There's no food, no VIP treatment after conference. We still get stuck in the same horrible traffic. So, yeah, that's at least for my family. Maybe a different family is different, but I've never seen any other benefit other than a conference. One conference ticket.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] And you feel like your aunts and uncles have all sort of experienced the same sorts of things.

Laura Andreasen [00:42:21] Yeah, I would. I don't. Well, because I think they would talk about it and I would find out and ask about it.

John Dehlin [00:42:28] And your parents are still active in believing in the church?

Laura Andreasen [00:42:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:32] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's good to know. You know, that's good to know to what extent. There's also a perception that general authorities tend to call family members or close friends as general authorities. And so just like we talked about your dad being called as a stake president because he's a son in law, potentially, of, you know, do you think that proximity to the brethren, you know, and you know that this past conference, there are three openings. They're all three white guys from Utah. Do you think that, you know, whatever inspiration may or may not happen, that a significant factor in who gets called as general authorities is kind of who you're related to or who you know?

Laura Andreasen [00:43:24] Yes. And that makes me a bad Mormon for saying that, because you're not supposed to believe that or at least admit to believing that.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Have you seen that? Like, have you seen people called.

Laura Andreasen [00:43:41] You know, it's more of a suspicion than anything else. I know two of my uncles have been mission presidents. Three of my uncles have been mission presidents, and I just Gotta wonder, you know, I have to, if that had anything to do with my grandfather. Maybe not, but it's suspicious.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] Sure. And it's not. Doesn't even have to be that he makes it that they're, you know, it could be just people under him know about that or they're familiar with them or they come to know them. And so familiarity, it can be just a matter of familiarity or it could be mid level managers wanting to, you know, please somebody. And it could be your, your grandpa's influence, like it could be any of those things.

Laura Andreasen [00:44:32] Right, right. I think that I would imagine there is a connection. Personally, I would, I would think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] What about, what about, you know, this is alluded to with kind of your dad getting a really nice job with the church headquarters. And of course he went to Harvard Business School, so it's not like he didn't have his own credentials. But one of the fears that I have knowing just how humans work is that business and money in church often get sort of interwoven. And so, you know, I worry about like people being awarded contracts because they're family or friends of apostles, business opportunities, people getting chosen to work for church or for companies that the church owns or for companies that the church has influence with. In other words, people don't make money directly from the church, but because of their associations with top church leaders, then they have an increased opportunity and sometimes direct opportunity because of those family associations.

Laura Andreasen [00:45:41] I think that's valid and I think that probably happens. I can't say that I know of a specific example, but I would say, yeah, that probably does happen.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] So like all the money made off of City Creek, there's probably potentially a lot of family and friends of general authorities that were awarded contracts. Possibly.

Laura Andreasen [00:46:04] Yeah, I would say that's a good possibility.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So anything else that you've seen in terms of how the church works that's interesting to you, good or bad? Just in terms of church administration and how the church is operated. It's just sort of like a final question before we move on to other topics.

Laura Andreasen [00:46:31] I have personally felt like the church can be a little bit wasteful sometimes and that that bothers me. My husband works in construction and he doesn't work with a particular company anymore, but when he did, the person who owns it is lds. And so I got to hear different ways of how the church handled building their temples and they had a. Some sort of decorator who decorated the apartments that are within the temple or next to the temple. And I guess she Came in and said, I don't like any of this stuff. And it was all brand new, all very nice. And the church, according to this, this could not be true, threw it away. And I thought, wow, you know, what a waste. And I actually did shoot my grandpa an email about that. I was like, if this is happening, that is so not cool. And you might want to look into it. I'm sure he just thinks I'm meddling. But it didn't sit with me well, because people struggle to pay their tithing. And it bothers me to know if that is true, that the church would be so wasteful. And I know they have very high standards with their church buildings and their temples, but, you know, that is one thing that does bother me. I don't. Well, maybe I don't understand it. I don't understand how you could be wasteful and use tithing funds like that.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] How did your husband end up getting a job with the construction firm that does work for the church?

Laura Andreasen [00:48:19] Trying to figure out how to say this without getting anybody in trouble here. Let's just say we have a connection from somebody we both know. It's not a family member of mine, but it is an LDS person that we know here.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] So, I mean, that's. Because that was my wonder. Is like, one thing the church does is it builds a lot of buildings and it owns a lot of real estate and it has a lot of business holdings. And so I'm wondering to what extent are children and grandchildren, aunts, uncles and cousins employed with companies that. That benefit from tithing from the church? And it sounds like your family is an example of that. I'm not saying that's wrong or inappropriate. I'm just saying it seems like your family's an example of that happening.

Laura Andreasen [00:49:13] Yeah, well, my husband, he doesn't work there anymore, but they do build other things like restaurants and things like that. And he never actually worked in the church division. But I think the church has a mindset of we take care of our own. And so the church hires LDS contractors. And good chances, we're probably related somehow. Right. Because we're all inbred. So there's a good chance that that happens often.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] Yeah. And again, I'm not saying that's evil. I'm just. It's just the way humans work. If we were talking Judaism or Catholicism, I'm guessing it would be the same thing, you know?

Laura Andreasen [00:49:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] But it's certainly true with us.

Laura Andreasen [00:49:58] Right?

John Dehlin [00:49:58] Yeah. Okay.

Laura Andreasen [00:50:02] So

John Dehlin [00:50:05] did you talk to your dad? So a lot of people wanted to talk about the lipstick comment.

Laura Andreasen [00:50:09] Oh, right.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] Did you. Did you catch wind of that? Did you talk to, you know, Elder Ballard about that? And if so, did he have any comments about it?

Laura Andreasen [00:50:20] Well, it's not the first time he's done that, actually. I went to. He spoke at Utah State University years ago. I believe this was before my mission. And I went up to hear him speak, and he told the women there to not walk around like they. Their death warmed over. And I was like, whoa. And that was a whole weird experience for me because, you know, like, I didn't realize that I wasn't supposed to sit down before he was. So I was up on the stand with him and my grandma, and everybody is sort of standing and standing, and I'm like, is anybody ever gonna sit down? So I finally sat down, and my grandma's like, get up. Get up. You don't sit down until he sits down. And I remember being so embarrassed because it was in, like, in front of thousands of people. And obviously that showed my complete and utter disrespect for him and his calling, but. So it's not the first time he's done it. And I remember being like, I kind of did that uncomfortable laugh, you know, that I think a lot of other people did when he made the lipstick, the infamous lipstick comment. But it's just. It's just stupid. He shouldn't have done it. He shouldn't have said it, and he hasn't said anything about it. And I don't know, we'll have to see if he ever does.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] Do you think someone told him that that caused a stir, and do you think he knows that?

Laura Andreasen [00:51:51] Oh, I'm sure somebody told. I mean, if nobody in the family told him, which they probably didn't, because they didn't know it caused his stir, because it only caused a stir amongst you heathens. Don't you know that? So I'm sure somebody who monitors all of the anti stirrup stuff saw and let him.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] Anti what?

Laura Andreasen [00:52:13] There are spies amongst you, I'm sure. But I'm sure somebody told him, because I believe it was taken down and, you know, they didn't want to flame the fire or whatever. But, yeah, he shouldn't have said it.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] And so you're saying your family remains sort of disconnected from this broader conversation about, you know, the church and things that people are struggling with. Are you saying that for the most part, your immediate extended family just wouldn't have even been aware that that was a problem?

Laura Andreasen [00:52:47] No, they wouldn't have been. They would have been people Laughing at it, because you're not supposed to look at stuff that goes against the church. And even though Mormon stories, I don't feel goes against the church, I think it's just people telling their honest stories stories, but something like that, it's such a slippery slope. It's such a dangerous thing to get involved in because you know they can. The devil will get you. He's really sneaky that way. So I think that's the way they look at it. We've been lectured many, many times to not look at any anti Mormon propaganda. So I think they were. They just don't let themselves go there.

John Dehlin [00:53:29] Do you think that would include Richard Bushman? Rough Stone Rolling. Have you ever heard of that book? Do you know what that book is?

Laura Andreasen [00:53:34] I've only heard of it recently, so. And I don't really know what it is. No.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] So you're guessing that your aunts and uncles and cousins maybe haven't even heard of Tarell Givens or Richard Bushman?

Laura Andreasen [00:53:47] Probably not. It's possible, but I doubt it.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Okay. Certainly within your immediate family, those names haven't come up.

Laura Andreasen [00:54:00] No.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] Okay. Okay. So. All right. So some people wanted to know if you had any fun stories about your interactions with apostles or first presidency members. You've talked about Elder Packer being a little bit grumpy about hearing President Monson not treating. And I've heard people say that about President Monson, that he can be grouchy with the help. You know, do like, families of apostles all get together and hang out? Are you. Have you ever developed close friendships with other apostles or not?

Laura Andreasen [00:54:37] No, I've never gotten together with anybody and I don't. I don't know any other grandchildren or children of apostles. That's never. I've never known anybody else.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] I wouldn't have thought that. I would think that they would all be hanging out together and getting to know each other. Why do you think that is, that they're not?

Laura Andreasen [00:54:58] I have no idea. I guess I would imagine because people have their own lives and everybody's families are so big, but I have no idea. You'd think we'd have some cool secret club, but we don't. And if we do, I'm not invited. So I. I'm not aware of anything.

Leader Worship, Empathy, and What Concerns the Brethren

John Dehlin [00:55:17] Okay. We mentioned a little bit about leader worship. A lot of people had a question about that. Do you think you're. Do you think your grandpa's aware of the level of leader worship that sort of goes on in the church? And if so, do you think he's Comfortable or uncomfortable with it. And then what do you think about it?

Laura Andreasen [00:55:37] I think. I think it happens. I don't know to what extent he is aware of it. I'm not sure he would look at it as being leader worship. I kind of see it happening. I sort of see them getting treated like royalty a little bit, and I'm not sure they think of it that way. It does bother me a little bit. But I took lessons from the fundamentalist Mormons one time. You want to talk about leader worship? I saw it a lot more in that particular religion than I do in ours. But I'm not saying it's not there. Maybe I just don't buy into it the way a lot of other people do.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Okay, so it's never come up, like him saying, I wish they'd stop taking everything I say so seriously, or, you know, I can't even make a mistake. I guess he's just never expressed any vulnerability or anything that would cause anyone to doubt or criticize. And so you can never have. You can never know. Right, Right.

Laura Andreasen [00:56:49] Well, he's never said that. That I've ever heard. I'm sure he's thought it. Who wouldn't if everything you said got people upset? I'm sure he's thought it, but he. I've never heard him say that. No.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] Okay. Have you ever tried to have a conversation with him about any of the things in the CES letter? So whether it's polygamy or Book of Mormon historicity or the Book of Abraham historicity, or blacks. Like, have you ever tried to talk to him about your doubts or the problems in our history?

Laura Andreasen [00:57:22] Yes, every time I have tried to talk to him or another family member, I get shut down pretty quickly. I will ask something, like when I did with the ordained women, just a simple question. It's either ignored or it's brushed off as well. We don't know everything. We have to have faith. That's what I've been told about polygamy, about blacks in the priesthood, and it leaves me doubting my own faith. So it gets shut down really quickly, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] So there's just no. No willingness to talk about things like that?

Laura Andreasen [00:57:58] No. I. I've always sort of thought, well, maybe he's just sick of answering it. But it's not really fair because not everybody is sick of talking about it and they're still trying to understand.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] So a lot of people want to know if the. If the apostles really know the problems and have really thought about them deeply. And it sounds like you wouldn't have any way to know because they won't talk to you about it?

Laura Andreasen [00:58:20] Well, they say they do, but it doesn't feel like that. So I question whether they do or not. But they say they're in touch. I would go out on a limb and disagree with that.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] A little bit out of touch in what way?

Laura Andreasen [00:58:40] Knowing maybe they might know about some of the pain. But I don't believe they feel. I think they struggle with mourning, with those that mourn. And that is a baptismal covenant. So I think, you know, they struggle with that. And that's unfortunate.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] Isn't that weird? Because they're supposed to be special witnesses of Christ. This is supposed to be a Christ centered church. If you're going to associate anything with Christ, it's going to be love and empathy. And yet you're saying the men who are supposed to be special witnesses of Christ have a fundamental empathy problem.

Laura Andreasen [00:59:13] I do, because I feel like they look at it, they see the business of it. The church is an organization and there are so many organized things that need to happen. And so I think they might get caught up in the fact that they're teaching people to teach other people instead of. Because the church is so large that they can only do what they can do. But I don't see a lot of love and empathy. I want to believe it's there. I just don't always see it.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] So to you they seem to function more as sort of administrators, executives than they do pastors and sort of compassionate service sort of people?

Laura Andreasen [01:00:02] Yes, and I'm not sure they would disagree with me. I think they would perhaps consider themselves to be mostly administrators more than pastors.

John Dehlin [01:00:13] Okay. Has there ever been any talk about the second anointing? I'm guessing that would just be off topic. Do you even know what that is?

Laura Andreasen [01:00:21] I have read a little bit about of it, but my knowledge is not that great. No.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] So it's never with your parents, with your siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins? The second anointing has never come up?

Laura Andreasen [01:00:33] No.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] Okay, what about special powers to heal? People are asking, does your grandpa heal the sick? And you know, as an apostle of Christ, does he have special powers of faith or priesthood that make, you know, do if you have a sick cousin or nephew, you know, do they take him to the. To grandpa for that special blessing to heal him, a birth defect or a significant illness? Has that ever come up?

Laura Andreasen [01:01:06] I have been, I've asked him to give me blessings before and one time, my son, I have an autistic son and he was really, really Sick. And I asked him to give him a blessing. And I think there is that faith there. Like, oh, well, maybe his blessing will be better than the next man's blessing. I. I don't believe it is anymore. Perhaps I should. But if with my experiences with blessings, I've never experienced anything miraculous or anything that led me to believe that blessings were something worth having. Boy, that's harsh. That sounds really bad to say, but I.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] And you even mean blessings from apostles?

Laura Andreasen [01:01:51] Yes, that is my feeling. I've never received a blessing that made me think, well, that was definitely God speaking to me, or heard of one

John Dehlin [01:02:03] where your grandpa healed somebody who was deathly ill or cancer or blind or lame or leprosy or anything like that?

Laura Andreasen [01:02:14] Nope, I've never heard of that happening.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] A lot of people want to know what worry the brethren. Like, are they. Do you ever have a sense for, like, what their concerns are? You know, some people. What about the, you know, Kay Kelly, ordained women? What about progressives, liberals? What about people leaving the church? You know, the growth of the church, money tithing, people resigning? Do you have any sense for what. What's on the brethren's mind about what keeps them up at night, if anything?

Laura Andreasen [01:02:50] Well, occasionally my grandfather will gather us together and have these little talks. And I remember one time he gave us a big, long spiel about pornography and the evils of pornography. And so I think that is a big problem. And they worry about just the Internet, media, that kind of thing getting into people's minds and hearts and the problems that it can cause. But I. I hope they're worried about the people leaving the church. I really and truly hope they are, because they should be, because those are the people that they need more than ever. And that would be the only reason I would want to stay, is to be a change for good. But I don't think I can do it. I don't think I can stay and be happy and be a good, happy person.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] So just, just as you were talking, a question came to mind. You've mentioned how amazing your grandmother is, Barbara, and how you don't have a negative thing to say. Have you noticed anything about their relationship or her role relative to his that's worth mentioning, either good or bad? Because she's so amazing and yet even me, I'm asking you all about him. There's gender inequality in the church, obviously, and you're telling me she's fabulous and he's good.

Laura Andreasen [01:04:24] But talk about, she would be a great apostle. I mean, if we could reverse the roles. I think she would be amazing, but she wouldn't want. She wouldn't want that. Which is partially the reason I think she'd be amazing. She is such a wonderful woman. And I've watched her sort of sweetly take a step back. And it's kind of hard for me because I see people surround my grandfather after different events, and everybody wants to shake his hand, and she's back there in the background and she. If I had to pick the better person, it would be her. She's just a wonderful, wonderful woman. And she's so full of faith and love and never. I've never heard her say an unkind word or anything controversial. I mean, it'd be kind of cool if she did, but just because I'd be like, wow, Grandma, I didn't know you thought that way. But she is such a good person. I wonder sometimes how she became the type of person who could step back and say, yeah, everybody's here to see him. Nobody cares about me. And I'm not saying nobody cares about her, but that's how it seems, because he is the one that everybody wants to talk to, everybody wants to touch or see. And she gets left behind.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] And that makes you feel what?

Laura Andreasen [01:05:55] It makes me sad because I think she's such a wonderful person. And I actually approached my grandfather about writing a book about my grandma, and I got shut down again. And I was like, man, I can't come up with any good ideas, can I? Because she's such a wonderful, sweet person and she is not doing too well right now. And I wonder when she's gone, I don't know how life will be for him because she's been such a wonderful companion to him.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] Several of the apostles have remarried, not just for time, but for eternity. They've specifically chosen women who weren't sealed to other men. And then they were sealed. And according to D&C, 132 in the heavens, they'll be in polygamous relationships. If your grandmother. Do you think your dad believes in polygamy in heaven? And if he does, if Barbara passed away, could you see him remarrying? I'm told that they've been told they have to get remarried within a certain amount of time or they're strongly urged to get remarried very quickly. How would you feel about your dad remarrying a woman and getting sealed to her? Do you believe that polygamy will last in heaven? Do you think that he would believe in polygamy? How would Barbara feel about that? Do you have any idea?

Laura Andreasen [01:07:26] Well, I Think it's gross, but I'd be like, oh, gross Grandpa getting remarried? No, thank you. I believe that the brethren do believe in polygamy and do believe it's a doctrine that. I don't know what extent they believe in it. I hope he doesn't get remarried. He's old. Like, I mean, apostles are kind of a hot commodity in this weird Mormon world, but it's just gross, man. Like, who would want to hitch themselves to that wagon? But whatever, he's a great guy. I guess maybe they want those supposed perks. As for what my grandma would think, she's just so sweet. She's never controversial. I don't think she would. I think she would tell him to do what makes him happy, so. But I don't like it, but I have no choice in the matter.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] Okay, so in terms of fears and concerns, they're concerned about the Internet, they're concerned about pornography, they're concerned about anti Mormon stuff. Those are the main things you hear them being concerned about.

Laura Andreasen [01:08:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:08:41] Do you have a sense, a couple people ask this, how he might feel about people who don't believe everything? You know, we call it the Middle Way, or progressive Mormons or liberal Mormons, people who aren't into. Don't believe in polygamy, who think that Joseph probably got it wrong, that the blacks. That was a mistake, that the LGBT stuff is wrong, but they still want to hang in the church disbelieving a bunch of stuff, but believing in love and compassion and charity and the community and maybe some of the teachings of Christ. And you may not know this, but do you have a sense for how he would feel about people like that, whether he would want them to stay or not, or what he would say to them?

Laura Andreasen [01:09:25] I think he would definitely want them to stay, but I think he would probably disagree with them because I believe he sees things as more black and white than a lot of other people do. I cannot foresee a time when he would ever want somebody to leave the church. He probably gets frustrated with people and maybe he's like, fine, leave if you're going to be that, and antagonistic towards it. But I don't see him wanting them to leave. I don't see that. Perhaps I just don't want to see it. But I think he would want people to stay, and maybe he'd want them to be more mainstream, but I think he would want them to stay.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Okay. Has he ever discussed these recent essays with you or the family, the. The new essays the church has put out? Does that come up at all.

Laura Andreasen [01:10:22] He may have talked about it with my aunts and uncles, but it hasn't trickled down to us grandkids.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] Okay. All right. So actually, that's all the questions I had about him, really. And then I was wanting to talk about your. Your story. A lot of people wanted to know what made you fall away, what the crack was, how long it took. So I'd like to now just talk briefly. And you've already talked about this. Some. But, you know, I know a lot of people whose names would be very familiar to all Mormons, you know, who don't believe or who doubt. Many, many people. Wealthy people or influential people or celebrities, you know, artists. Like, there's a lot of people who quietly no longer believe or have serious problems with the church, but they just. They won't talk about it. They can't talk about it. They're scared to talk about it. They love it too much to talk about it. Like, there's a whole variety there. But you. You are different. I've been really impressed with how balanced you've been, with how fair you've been, with how loving and empathetic you've been. You're willing to say good things, but you're also willing to say difficult things. But. But most importantly, you have violated the family code and the Mormon code. You're being vulnerable, and you're speaking openly about things that your entire family and church culture would tell you. It's wrong to even talk about this. And I'm just wondering why. Why are you doing this? Why are you doing what your family would be saddened by, what your grandparents would be saddened by, what your church culture would be disappointed in? Why are you talking out. You've talked a bit about it, but I want to understand it better because there's so much social pressure on you. More than anyone, more than many, more than most, I should say. And yet you're doing it. And you're one of very few people. You know, obviously, we had the son of one of the General Relief Society presidency members on last week on Mormon Stories. I found that to be a very heroic episode. You know, his name is Eric Reeves. He's the son of Linda Reeves, who's the second counselor in the General Relief Society presidency, but now you're coming out. Did Eric's story influence you all to come out to me and just talk a bit more about why you're willing to do this when so much social and family pressure would be against this? And I would have assumed that there would be so much risk to either your personal safety, your personal health and well being, how your family treats you, getting rejected. Maybe it could influence your husband's job. I'm just wondering why you'd be willing to take such risks as it would, as I would perceive it.

Coming Out, Advice for Those Struggling, and Community

Laura Andreasen [01:13:43] All right. Well, thank you again for saying such nice things about me. I'm not sure I deserve them, but I appreciate it. And as to Eric Reeves story, I actually just listened to it last night. I had already contacted you a while ago, but it was good for me to listen to. It was interesting to me. You know, one of the reasons why I stopped, well, decided I was going to stop being silent necessarily is if you've read my blog and I don't know if you've read any of my articles.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] No, I didn't even know you blogged. What's your blog? What's it called?

Laura Andreasen [01:14:21] Well, it's just mormonexperiments.blogspot.com you know, just one of you. Everybody's a writer nowadays, right? But I just started writing after I had this experience with committing adultery. And so I decided to blog through that all and through the journey through that. And I wrote a little bit about. It's funny you mentioned it, the Mormon code. I talked about the Mormon code of silence. And I mentioned in there a story from church not too long ago where I was in Gospel principles class with a member who had just joined the church not all that long ago. And the lesson was on repentance. And she asked a question. She started to ask a question. She was like, well, I have a question, you know, is it true that everything that I've done is washed away at baptism? And she started to say, because I've done. And then a woman interrupted her and said, we don't need to know everything that you've done. And she was very shaming and rude. And I was like, oh. Because that to me was a shaming act to push that woman away. And I began to wonder then, why are we so quiet? Why can't we say things that we've done wrong?

John Dehlin [01:15:40] Why?

Laura Andreasen [01:15:41] Why can we not admit to it? Aren't the most beautiful stories in the scriptures the stories of redemption where people came back from below the bottom? Christ was beneath us all. And so I started to wonder, why do I have to be quiet? On the mission, we were always told no pts, meaning no past transgressions, don't talk about those with people. And that bothered me because how could we connect with these people, people at all if we weren't allowed to talk. And so I decided to reach out to you. And quite honestly, I was surprised that you were like, oh, okay. Yeah. Because out of the hope that maybe my story could help someone. And I hope that doesn't sound arrogant because I have no idea if my story could help anyone. But my only wish is that people can find happiness and be okay with being themselves who they are. I've written a little bit about the similarities of Mormon culture and rape and the silence of it all and how silence can be so damaging and deadly to people. And I feel that way. I feel like the more I speak openly, the more I understand about how I feel. And hopefully somebody can connect with that. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to be able to reach out to people. I would love to be able to connect with more people and help anybody. I could just get them through this and maybe they can help me too. I don't know. I was afraid, John, to, like, I was laying in bed last night and I'm like, is this the right thing? You know, And I was getting stuck in this Mormon thinking, and we had a big storm last night, and I'm like, is this a sign? Like, and then my computer wasn't working, which was totally, totally user error, because I am the worst. But I was like, is this a sign? You know, it's that typical Mormon thinking, but I got very afraid as speaking out. But in the long run, I just think it's good for everyone to be able to speak their truth and be authentic. And hopefully their authentic self is someone who is loving and accepting of all people. And that was a long, rambling way to get about, you know, the fact that I just. It's. Perhaps it's selfish. It's part of my own healing to be able to open up and talk about my feelings. So I thank you for letting me do that.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] So for you being vulnerable, talking about weaknesses, being open about who you are, it almost sounds like for you, that's healing. That little girl, that little Mormon girl who never had the chance to discover who she was and is and to talk about what she thinks and feels, it sounds like for you, the growth is figuring that out now and claiming your power to be open to say what you think and feel and discover who you are, untethered from all the social pressures, is that.

Laura Andreasen [01:19:00] Absolutely. And I think everybody should do that. And I just imagine the healing that could happen within the church if people were to be able to get rid of their shame, be more of their authentic self. I love that term. And to Just open up and be honest. Whether it's at church or whether it's not in the church, I don't think it matters. I think people need to find out who they are away from who they are as a Mormon, and that's the journey that I've been on. And so I hope maybe somebody can relate. And hopefully I haven't seemed arrogant or know it all. I certainly don't feel that way. But that is my one true hope, that maybe somebody will find a little bit of light in my journey.

John Dehlin [01:19:50] And so the main principles you're standing for are openness, honesty, integrity, getting in touch with who you are, becoming your authentic self. When you talk about the values that you want to stand for as motivation for doing this interview and helping others, are those the main values you stand for? Are there others that you want to stand for? I guess compassion and acceptance is another big piece of that I'm hearing.

Laura Andreasen [01:20:20] Absolutely. I just want people to be kind with one another. And I don't know where my story will take me. I don't imagine that it will take me back into the church, but it's possible, and I hope that doesn't bother people. I know it probably will, but that is what I would like. If I could have any change in the church, it would be more open, honest, loving people in charge. Or maybe the people in charge could learn how to be that way. That is what I stand for. And that might not be good enough for a lot of people, but that's good enough for me for now.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] Beautiful. A lot of people are saying, what advice would you have to people now who, let's just say, are either sad in their experiences with the church like you, have been just not happy, or let's say they're doubting. They're studying the Book of Mormon's historicity or the Book of Abraham or polygamy, and they're just like, this is all made up. You know, this is all made up. And those are usually two of the main things. Or they're struggling with inequality, with women's issues in the church, or they're struggling with how LGBT people are treated. I think between those things, that represents a huge chunk of why people leave, or they're just feeling bored or uninspired. What advice would you give to people who are struggling with all those issues?

Laura Andreasen [01:21:52] I think it's kind of healthy for people to stay, take a step back sometimes. At least it's been for me. There have been so many times in my life where I've just taken a step Back from the church, and I haven't left the church, but I took a step back and I did something that made me feel more me. Like I pierced my nose or I've got a few tattoos and show us

John Dehlin [01:22:14] your tattoo on your arm. What does it mean? What does it mean?

Laura Andreasen [01:22:17] I've got this one. Where are we here?

John Dehlin [01:22:19] So it's a semicolon, right?

Laura Andreasen [01:22:21] Yep. So for mental illness, and then it says, be kind.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] Okay, so what does the semicolon mean? I know, but tell others.

Laura Andreasen [01:22:29] It's just. It's a mental illness awareness, suicide prevention. Mental illness is something that's very near and dear to my heart because I've suffered with it and watched other people suffer with it. And so, you know, I didn't feel guilty getting a tattoo of something like a semicolon or something that says be kind. I also have a giant one of the autism spectrum heart because of the work I do with autistic kids and with my son in particular. So it just made me feel more me. So I took a step back, I did a few things that made me feel more myself, and then I just got the courage to do more things that felt more like myself. So my suggestion is, one, take a step back and find support. I do love Mormon Spectrum. That's how I got up with my Dallas area group here, and they've been very sweet and kind to me. And then listening to Mormon Stories or other podcasts where people talk about the church, even if they're poking fun at certain things, I enjoy that occasionally, too. So I think it's nice to find your sense of community, because that is the scariest thing. That's terrifying for me to know that I can totally lose everybody out of my life.

John Dehlin [01:23:55] What other podcasts have you listened to besides Mormon stories?

Laura Andreasen [01:23:58] Let's see. Mormon Stories and Mormon Stories. I don't think I've listened to any other podcasts.

John Dehlin [01:24:05] You haven't heard, like, Infants on Thrones or.

Laura Andreasen [01:24:07] No, I've seen it. My problem is that I get so, so, Like, I'm so behind by the time I have. My husband says I'm addicted because I spend all my free time, like, listening to Mormon stories or Radio from Hell, which is the Salt Lake radio show. I love that one, too. So I really have a very limited.

John Dehlin [01:24:30] Okay, no, that's fine. That's fine. Okay. So through Mormon Spectrum, you found a local support community that could help you make friends and help you feel like you're not alone and to help you feel like you have a bit of

Laura Andreasen [01:24:44] a community right yes, and they've been wonderful, which surprised me because I was so set on the idea that people who leave the church are crazy and mean and scary and bad. So it's just so funny. I mean, I'm a grown up. Why would I think that? But, you know, it was surprising to me. They reached out to me and they were so kind. It was nice.

John Dehlin [01:25:07] Okay, so that's great. I just interviewed Alison Udall for Mormon Spectrum yesterday. We're going to be plugging Mormon Spectrum on Mormon Stories and a Mormon transitions podcast. So I just wanted to reflect that. Shout out to Steve and Allison and the good people at Mormon Spectrum. Okay, podcasts. What other advice besides local communities? Mormon Spectrum and podcasts. Real quick. Your dad, actually your grandpa spoke out against podcasts in a recent talk he gave. If he were to say to you, you appeared on Mormon Stories, those podcasts are dangerous. You know, that's Satan. What would you say to him? To say, grandpa, you've got. And I don't care about me or Mormon Stories, but just, you've got podcasts wrong. What would you say to him about that?

Laura Andreasen [01:25:55] Well, I would ask if he had listened to them, because I don't know how you could listen to something like Mormon Stories. And I started listening to Mormon Stories thinking it was going to be something completely different than what it was. I was expecting a lot of just bitter feelings towards the church, and I didn't get that. I got these beautiful stories. And your interviewing style is not leading or sort of trying to get somebody to say something. So I would ask him if he listened to it. And. And I may fall back on the. Well, you know, we'll have to agree to disagree. But I hope that he will see that, as I'm afraid that he will see this as a act of disloyalty towards him. And that does make me sad. But I hope he doesn't. I hope he sees it for what it truly is.

John Dehlin [01:26:49] What is it to you? This, you know, you coming out and talking. You say, grandpa, this is why I did the interview. It's because what?

Laura Andreasen [01:26:59] Because I've been quiet for so long and there are people suffering. And maybe part of me wants to make it a little bit personal for him, to make him see that he is not out of it. Our family is not all in the clear. We've got people suffering in our family and they're people suffering in the church and just maybe make it a little bit more personal for all of us.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] So help him develop empathy, basically.

Laura Andreasen [01:27:27] That would be the hope.

John Dehlin [01:27:28] By making It.

Laura Andreasen [01:27:29] I haven't done that in the past, but I've tried, so we'll see.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Okay, so any other advice to people struggling besides podcasts and community? There are a lot of people scared to come out to family and friends, scared to speak openly. Any other advice to them?

Laura Andreasen [01:27:47] You know, I think if you want to truly be happy, you need to find your voice. And it is scary, but most things that are scary are usually worth it in the end. And I'm not at the end. So, hey, listen to me or don't listen to me. Go check back with me in a few months. Maybe I'll be like, that was a terrible decision. But I don't think so. I really don't think so because I feel peaceful and knowing that what I'm saying is true and not trying to hide anything or be anybody other than I naturally am. And that's a nice feeling to find a community that you can just be yourself in.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] So you're saying, find your voice. Stop being, you know, I hear you saying, speak up and find your voice. But man, you have modeled such poise and fairness and charity like you, you've got that be kind on your wrist. I think you've really internalized that because I, I have not sensed mean spiritedness or anger. And so is that part of the advice you'd give in terms of when people do speak up, how to speak up?

Laura Andreasen [01:28:59] I think it's helpful. Nobody wants to listen to somebody who is very argumentative and just seems to already have their end goal in mind. I think it's nice when people are, it's refreshing when people say, I don't know all the answers. I'm trying to understand. Help me understand. And I've said that to my grandfather and other church members and I'll say that to people who aren't church members. Help me understand. I want to understand. I think most people want to understand. But more than that, I think they want to be loved and be heard. And that's honestly what I hope for everybody.

John Dehlin [01:29:39] So find your voice, but be kind in how you speak with others.

Laura Andreasen [01:29:43] Right? It's not too hard. You can do it.

Fears of Retaliation, Beliefs After Mormonism, and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [01:29:52] A lot of people, okay, so you've already kind of addressed this, but like, do you have worries about retaliation, about your grandma and grandpa withdrawing their love from you, about your parents disowning you or your siblings ostracizing you or your husband losing his job? Like, do you have any fears about what might come of this interview?

Laura Andreasen [01:30:17] I am worried about my in laws disliking me more than they already do, which is hard because I thought we were getting a better relationship. I was really, truly hopeful for that. And it's hard for them to hear that their son is not perfect. And I've been honest about his imperfections as well as my own and so that's hard for them. As for my husband losing his job, I don't worry about that. He doesn't work for an LDS company and I doesn't work with any LDS people. So we're nicely in a safe little bubble. I am worried about my family's feelings. I care about people's feelings. I know that maybe they might not think I do to take a step like this, but that's not true. I love my family. I love them, but I want them to be happy too. And maybe some of them are unhappy. So I am a little worried. I am more afraid of my dad than anyone else because he is very strict down the line Mormon and he may or may not decide to never speak to me again. And I don't know with my grandpa, I don't know, he may just ignore me, which is almost worse, if you know what I mean. I hate being ignored.

John Dehlin [01:31:40] It's way worse. I think being ignored is way worse

Laura Andreasen [01:31:43] than fighting because it's somebody just completely discounting your voice and your opinions. And so I dislike that. But I'm not sure what will happen. It is a worry. It kept me up at night, but I think it's worth it.

John Dehlin [01:32:00] How can it be worth it to jeopardize your relationship with your in laws, your dad and maybe even your grandparents?

Laura Andreasen [01:32:08] Because I'm 32 years old and I feel like I haven't lived a day in my life that hasn't been controlled to some extent by my religion. And it's nice to be able to say, hey, I'm taking control of this and I'm going to live my life the way I see fit and to the dictates of my own conscience, I will act. And I think that's appropriate and I think it is worth it. And hopefully if they are guided by love at all, my family will see the truth in this.

John Dehlin [01:32:46] A lot of people want to know if you would consider joining another church. You know, whether. Whether you still, you know, maintain beliefs in God, in Christ and things like that. What are your. What are your. If you end up resigning and they let you resign and you stick with that, do you see yourself joining another church?

Laura Andreasen [01:33:09] I've been to a lot of different churches because when people would invite me to a church, I Felt like a hypocrite to say no, since I was always inviting people to my church. So I've been to several, and I see good in all of them, But I am lazy. I don't want to go to another church just because I would rather not go to church on Sunday. And having been a member of the church my whole life, I'm a little bit burned out. And so while I believe in God, I don't see myself being an active member of another church because that's just work I don't really necessarily want to do. That's never to say. I mean, I could eventually, but it might be nice to just lay in bed on Sundays and do nothing.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] Yeah, it is beautiful, and Sundays are amazing. Okay, two last questions. The final question is, is there anything the church could do to get you back? Like, let's say Grandpa came to you and said, all right, I want you in this church. You give me your list, and I'll make everything you say happen. I'm now one of the senior most members of the quorum of the 12. President Packer's gone. I'm good buddies with Elder Nelson. Like, I'll make it happen. Could if. Is there a list you could give him that that could then lead to your coming back to the church?

Laura Andreasen [01:34:37] Geez, if he said that to me, I'd be like, make me the prophet. Like, seriously put me in charge. I would run this church real good. And this is why I get in trouble, because I joke about stuff like that and I shouldn't. I don't know. I feel like once you've been alienated, it is hard to come back. But I also feel like there's forgiveness, and it's possible. Now, I'm not done in my research of all things church doctrine, and so it's a possibility that I might read something that just completely turns me off and I'll say, oh, no, never again will I go back to that. I haven't gotten to that point yet, but I wouldn't. If my grandpa came to me and said, I'll fix everything that you want me to fix, I would not take him up on that. I would ask him to go speak to other people. Because there is no way I could ever speak for the church, nor would I want to. As much as I would love to be a change for good and love and acceptance, I wouldn't feel comfortable even coming up with the list.

John Dehlin [01:35:48] Really? Even to make you want to come back. Okay. So since you left because it didn't make you happy or Bring you joy overall. What would have to change for you to feel joy in the church? Do you have a sense for that?

Laura Andreasen [01:36:03] I'm not sure I ever could feel joy in the church. The only thing that would have to change would be my perspective and maybe my understanding, because you have to find. You have to create happiness. You have to find it wherever you are, grow where you're planted, that kind of thing. And I just. I can't foresee that happening for me when I've been so happy away from it. I can't see myself forcing myself to be happy back inside of the church again. As always, I leave wiggle room in there. It could happen, but I don't foresee that happening.

John Dehlin [01:36:44] Okay, so last question. Let's just say that your parents and your siblings and your grandparents, they say, I'm not listening to all that, but they're willing to listen to the last. The last few minutes, the last comments you make, and you were to summarize what you stand for and your testimony as it stands today. And you don't even have to worry about them. I mean, normally the way we end Mormon stories is by people just sharing their testimony of what they care about and believe in now. And of course, that's come through this whole interview. But if you were to summarize it now, what would be your final testimony that you share with us, your listeners, and with your family if they happen to tune in?

Laura Andreasen [01:37:40] I would say that there is so much love out there that I feel it should be shared with everyone, regardless of anything we disagree with. We should love first, always love first and be kind, treat each other nicely, maybe not fight so much, but work for a change in a loving way, be smart about it, but work for a change in a way that makes other people feel lifted up and not torn down. And that is what I believe. I still believe in a God that loves us. And I hope that I do right by him always. But I hope I do right by myself and by my children and my husband, my family. But I hope that anybody listening will just maybe take a look at their lives and see what they can do better to be kinder to one another. In or out of the church. Doesn't matter. That's just always been my message. And I hope maybe someday that'll get to my grandfather and to other members of church leadership, that there are people out there and their feelings and opinions are valid and they matter.

John Dehlin [01:39:03] And if there are any listeners out there who are struggling with depression or anxiety or mental illness, eating disorders, let's say they have a child who's autistic. What would you say to those who struggle with mental illness or other challenges in their lives?

Laura Andreasen [01:39:21] Wow. I've done all of those so I could honestly say, hey, I've been there. There's no shame in it. There is no shame. We all struggle. Reach out to someone. Don't keep it in. Keeping it in is poison. If you need to reach out to me, you can reach out to me. That is fine. Like, the one thing in life I want to do is help people and I would love to be able to walk somebody through it or just listen to their story and so don't hold it in. Get help, take medicine if you need to. There is no shame in that. It can be a life changer. And so just get rid of the stigma and reach out. And I think you'll find a lot of people reaching back for you.

John Dehlin [01:40:09] Beautiful. Well, Laura Andreessen, you are a class act. I this exceeded every possible hope that I could have had. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I know my listeners are going to love this episode. It's going to be a top five and we've got over 560 hours and I know this is going to be a top five. So bless you. You're a good soul. Please let us know if we can help you in any way. And thank you so much for your vulnerability, your charity, your honesty, and your willingness to just share your story. We love you and we love your family and we love Elder Ballard and Barbara and please send them our love, you know, and just let's spread the love.

Laura Andreasen [01:40:59] Agree. Spread the love. No. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening.

John Dehlin [01:41:03] All right, listeners, thank you for listening. Please join us up@mormonstories.org if you want to comment. Leave your compliments. We don't need any criticisms of Laura, so if you want to heap any praise on her, please do it@mormonstories.org we'll post her email address or her blog name so that you can get a hold of her to thank her. So please do that. And then I just have to also thank those who financially support Mormon Stories. You guys keep this alive. We couldn't do it without you. So anyone who has given or will give to Mormon Stories, just know that that's what makes this possible. So thanks so much to everyone. But mostly thanks to you, Laura, for your amazing gift of your story.

Laura Andreasen [01:41:52] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:41:53] All right, take. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it. By becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Laura Andreasen [01:42:26] When with a wounded heart, anger or malice I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.