Introducing John Dehlin's Disciplinary Council

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:00:01] Welcome to Trib Talk. I'm Jennifer Napier Pierce with the Salt Lake Tribune. John Dehlin will face an LDS Church disciplinary council and make his case against allegations of apostasy. It's not the first time the host of Mormon Stories podcast has been admonished by local clergy about his very public questions regarding the faith's history and doctrine. And today, Dylan is joining us to talk about dissent and discipline, which within the LDS Church. And John Dillon joins me from his home in Logan. John, welcome back to TribTalk. Thanks so much for being here.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] Thanks, Jennifer. It's nice to be here.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:00:35] And again, you can send your questions, your comments on John Dehlin's predicament to the hashtag TribTalk on Twitter and Google. Put your comments here on the website sltrib.com or text us to that number. 801-609-8059. Before we proceed, you got a bit of news just a few moments ago from your stake president. John, can you fill us in what you heard?

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Yeah, I just saw an email about five minutes ago that told me that the disciplinary council has been delayed basically two weeks. So I think the date is February 8th. Haven't been able to make sure, confirm with my wife that that date works for us. But for now, there will be no disciplinary council this Sunday. Right now it's scheduled for February 8th.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:01:22] And this was due to issues on his part, not on yours?

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Yeah, I think it's family, personal family issues on his part. I don't want to disclose anything that would betray any confidentiality in that case. But yeah, has to do with his family.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:01:42] How do you feel about the delay?

John Dehlin [00:01:47] Mixed. I think my family is really eager to have all this done and I think to some extent I am too. I feel really bad for anyone who's made arrangements or plans to come. I know that I think over 100 people have planned to come for some sort of vigil. I haven't been involved in planning that or I don't really know anything about it. But for anyone who's made plans to come to Logan to show their support, I guess I feel badly that those plans are going to be scrapped. I do feel like I'm eager to have this kind of done with. So in that sense, it's a little bit frustrating.

Allegations, Apostasy, and Reasons for Staying

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:02:28] As I mentioned, you have been investigated by church officials before. This time around, what's your understanding about the particular allegations that you're facing?

John Dehlin [00:02:42] I think there are a few main points. Each one of them in isolation, I don't think would necessarily lead to a disciplinary council, but maybe in aggregate they do. So my podcast with Mormon stories at MormonStories.org, i've been doing that for about 10 years.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] It reaches tens of thousands of people every month, and it's really started to create quite a following. I do think the church leaders get nervous whenever anyone kind of has a following. Second is that I've been very open and public about many doubts that I have about the church, about its history, about the scientific veracity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and some of the fundamental LDS church truth claims. And I've been open about that for years. I think as early as 2006, I started talking openly about my doubts. And so even though I think those play a role in what's going on, I don't think them in and of themselves are what led to the disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] What's been really controversial is my belief that my advocacy for my support and public advocacy for ordained women and same sex marriage, I believe are factors and main factors in my letter from President King. He mentions the support of groups that aren't in harmony with the church's teachings and ordain women. Was mentioned specifically by my bishop back in late January and by President King in August. And so I know that ordained women is a part of this. But also I asked President King Point blank on August 7th, I believe, if my support, public support for same sex marriage was a problem. And his answer was, yes, it's a problem.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] Now, he was very adamant that he didn't want that in the press or in the news, and he didn't include those on his letters. He just chose to speak about language that was kind of more vague about groups. And so I guess we all have to kind of conjecture about that. But he left no doubt with the fact that in his view, I could not publicly support same sex marriage or ordain women and remain a member of good standing.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:05:12] It's interesting. I mean, a lot of people out there, they totally acknowledge your support for same sex marriage, of giving women the priesthood. And yet some are pointing to the core beliefs as really the place where, you know, there have been other very vocal voices in support of women being ordained in support of gay marriage. And I'm thinking of the Mormons Building Bridges group. Some bloggers, including Steve Evans and Nathaniel Givens, would say that it's really that you publicly oppose core beliefs of the church, such as believing that Jesus truly is the Savior and that the Book of Mormon is, is holy Scripture, not those political views. How do you respond to that kind of criticism or conjecture?

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Well, they are conjecturing. What I can say is that I've been public and open about my doubts and beliefs since the beginning of Mormon stories. And so you have to ask what's changed? Because I've said I've questioned my thoughts and feelings about a literal atonement, about an anthropomorphic God, about this being God's one and only true church, about the Book of Mormon being historical, the Book of Abraham being historical. Years and years have gone by where I've publicly expressed doubts about that. More importantly, in my last investigation with Stake President Mark Jensen, I was 100% open and honest about my doubts and disbelief to him.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] And those discussions ended with him allowing me to baptize and confirm my son to be a member in full standing. And my beliefs have not changed from then until now. My doubts, my disbeliefs have not changed. So it's, it's just, it doesn't make sense to me. And plus, there are millions, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Mormons who don't believe in various elements of the Church's truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] And so, and then as far as you know, Steve Evans and Nathaniel Givens and others, it seems like they've wanted to make this argument that because they know some people who have not been disciplined, then they want to cast doubt and suspicion as to whether or not anyone has been disciplined. And I think if you want to go to MormonStories.org, you can see testimonials of dozens and dozens of people who have made it very clear that their stake president or their bishop have either taken away their temple recommends, taken away their callings, or in some other way exercised some sort of church discipline for their support of either ordained women or same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] And so I don't think we can. All I can do is go on the letter at what President King told me. And the letter definitely mentioned, you know, Mormon stories and it definitely mentioned my publicly expressed doubts and disbeliefs, but it also mentioned my public advocacy for these groups.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] And my bishop and my stake president mentioned ordained women by name. And my stake president told me that my support, public support of same sex marriage was a problem in terms of me remaining in good standing. So, so I think Steve Evans and Nathaniel Givens are wrong.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:08:40] Speaking with John Dehlin, if you're just joining us, we're talking about his views on doubt and dissent within the LDS Church. And again, if you're just joining us, his disciplinary council has been delayed. It will not be On Sunday. It will be in about two weeks. But if you want to join us with questions or comments about dissent in the LDS Church, you can send them to the TripTalk or, or put them online right here@sltrib.com. here's a comment on our website from Tiny Commando Robot. Apostasy is such a funny word to me. One really only finds it among groups of pseudo authoritarians who think that they have a say, that they have any say about how others should be living their lives. John de Lynn, what does that word mean to you? What does apostasy mean? And are you guilty?

John Dehlin [00:09:35] My understanding of the word apostasy comes from what the Church has taught me. I think I remember the Church teaching that apostasy means to stand apart. And in some sense, I guess I would answer the question in a couple ways. I definitely am standing apart from the church leaders on some important issues, but there are also many ways I'm standing with the church. So I still, I still consider myself a person of faith. I still believe in what I believe are the core tenets of Christianity, which are around love and faith and service and kindness and charity. I still hold to many of the LDS Church's core beliefs and practices.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] I've still never tried alcohol. I believe in being faithful to my spouse. I believe that sex is sacred and I believe in the sanctity of marriage. And I believe that the church has so many good things. I love the Mormon people and I, you know, I was an active member with my family up through June. I was raising my children in the church up through June of 2014. So for those who claim I've been trying to take people out of the church, it's just wrong. I love Mormonism. I value it. I think that I just have this hope that Mormonism, the LDS Church, can mature like Judaism and Christianity have and become a bigger tent and become more willing to tolerate dissenting views, even criticism.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] And I just don't think the church is there yet. But I will say this to be fair. I have criticized the Brethren publicly for their handling of gay, lesbian, bisexual people. I criticized Elder Oaks, sort of the, you know, the General Conference before I was called in by my bishop. I publicly criticized Dallin H. Oaks for his comments about same sex marriage because I felt like the way the Brethren are talking about gay, lesbian and bisexual members is leading to a very high rate of suicide here in Utah and across Mormonism. So I do disagree with the Church on their support of same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] I also, you know, I've studied the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham very carefully. And I just, I do not find there to be any credible evidence that those books are translations of ancient records. And in fact, they, they seem to be more like 19th century documents that were created by Joseph Smith. And I know that's an awful thing to say as a Mormon. And so I understand why the brethren are really angry and upset about that, but I didn't want to believe that. I didn't want to find those things out. But that's my honest review of the evidence. And so it is true that I have criticized the church leaders, that I disagree with them on things like same sex marriage and ordained women, and that I have serious doubts about several fundamental aspects of the church's truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] And so I think it is absolutely within their right to hold a disciplinary council. For me, whether that's good for the church, whether that's a righteous or a holy or a positive constructive thing, I think is a different question. But I don't feel like I'm a victim here. I don't feel like I've been mistreated.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] This is more a question for the church and its leadership to decide is whether they want me as a member and secondarily whether they want people like me as members. Because I do think they need to be clear.

John Dehlin [00:13:11] If you do support same sex marriage, can you be a member in good standing? If you support ordained women, can you be a member in good standing? Even if you publicly support those things? And if you doubt the historicity of the Book of Mormon, or if you doubt the historicity of the Book of Abraham, or even if you doubt the belief in God, can you still even openly share that and be considered a member of good standing?

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:13:34] Do you want to be a member in good standing? You said that you've stepped away for a number of months now. I mean, what does church membership mean to you? And if you no longer believe in some of those core tenets, is it worth it? Why not renounce your membership on your own?

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Yeah, I love Mormonism. Mormonism has contributed so many good things to my life. The church has contributed many positive things to my life. I think there are just so many good things about the church. It's my spiritual home, it's my tribe, it's my people.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] So I look at Judaism and I look at Catholicism and I have Catholic and Jewish friends. They're not called to a court if they doubt or disbelieve or even criticize aspects of their faith. And so, yeah, my preference would be that the church kind of grow up, become an adult, be strong enough to tolerate dissent, disagreement and doubt and disbelief. And then those of us who want to remain affiliated can. And that would be my preference.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] So that would be my hope. But, yeah. Why did we stop going to church? After three formal investigations, after ward members start following you on Facebook and Twitter and are copying down and pasting comments that you make and then submitting them to the bishop and stake president as evidence against you, it starts to feel very harassing. And that's exactly what ward members in my ward and stake have done. And it just starts to feel like a hostile environment. So, no, we don't want to go to our ward at this time. We don't feel welcome, we don't feel respected or particularly loved.

John Dehlin [00:15:17] But, yeah, we still maintain the hope that the church can become more mature and grow up and be able to tolerate people like me.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:15:26] Church disciplinary councils, of course, are made up of these locals, lay clergy, and the proceedings are confidential. You chose to make this public. Why?

John Dehlin [00:15:39] Well, you know, to be honest, the first and foremost, as we saw with Kate Kelly, there were so many people that were so eager to create doubt and suspicion, to conjecture, to even slander and malign her, and to say that whatever she was saying to the public wasn't accurate. And I just didn't want that to happen. A secondary thing is, you know, these letters that I received were quite vague. They didn't really say what were the doubts or disbeliefs that I was being charged for, necessarily, at least at first. They didn't say which groups I could or couldn't support. And I honestly, in August 7th, when I met with President King, I didn't know what I needed to do to remain a member in good standing specifically.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] So I. I took very good notes and records of those meetings, partly as a protection to myself for people who would, as they've done, as many have done, try to claim that it's not about this or not about that. I wanted to definitely have a very good record of what was said because sometimes it seems as though the Church wants to sort of convey one set of ideas or concerns that through their letters and through what gets spoken about in public, but then what gets said behind the scenes. Some of the more specific or in some cases, some of the true motives for what's going on are said verbally, but they're not published in print.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] It almost feels like those letters are kind of vetted by Curtin and McConkie, by lawyers, and the church wants to sort of have it both ways. They want to sort of punish me for things like my public support of same sex marriage or my support of ordained women. But then when they come out with the letters, they don't want to include those by name because they know that there'll be a P.R. kind of firestorm. And so I feel very good about the records I've taken.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] I feel, you know, it's hard to speak purely, precisely and perfectly and accurately when you're speaking off the cuff or commenting in a blog or Facebook. But I feel very comfortable about how I've represented my conversations with President King. And I plan to continue taking very good notes so that I'm not misrepresented and so that people can't slander and malign me.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:17:57] I want to just throw in a

John Dehlin [00:17:58] key also so that the church can become explicit about who can and can't remain a member and what the conditions are for remaining in good standing. Because I'm so tired of all these people telling me my bishop took away my temple recommend because I marched in a pride parade or the bishop, you know, got rid of my calling because I supported ordained women or put up an ordained women profile. These people are being coerced and I believe, manipulated. And in some ways I think this is kind of ecclesiastical abuse without a clear statement. And what's really inappropriate is that one bishop in Cambridge or in Oakland may be totally supportive of his members supporting ordained women or same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] But then a bishop or stake president in Draper or Sandy might really crack down and make people's lives miserable. And I think that inconsistency is unconscionable. And I think it's upon the church that to create really clear policies so that people can know whether or not the church wants them in good standing.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:18:58] You posted the question on social media asking people to email their local leaders and find out definitively if they can be members in good standing while supporting ordained women and or same sex marriage. I mean, is that part of the evidence that you're gathering to present to your disciplinary council?

John Dehlin [00:19:17] No, to be honest, I believe that the disciplinary council, the stake President 1st Pres. The stake Presidency, they've already made up their mind and I don't object to their right to be able to determine if I should be a member or not. So my plan is not to go and try and lay out this case for why I should remain a member. The best that I can do, and this is what I plan on doing, is to sort of just try and explain my motives, why I've come to the conclusions that I have, and why I've been public about it, why I've even been angry or critical at times.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] And frankly, I want to thank have it be a moment to thank the church for all the good things that it's done for me. That's how I plan on handling my disciplinary council, at least for now. What I'm doing on MormonStories.org is just trying to support a public conversation. If news media want to pick up on it, that's fantastic. But I'm just tired of the kind of doublespeak and I understand myself. I've made mistakes. I've said one thing here and one thing there, and those things are contradictory.

John Dehlin [00:20:25] I've never intended to mislead people. I don't even think the church intends to mislead people. But I think it's upon them to make it very clear what it takes to be a member in good standing versus not so that this confusion doesn't persist and mostly so that people don't get punished or coerced for things that aren't appropriate. And so all I'm doing on the website is to try and move the discussion along such that eventually the church will just make it very clear what is and is not allowable for someone to remain a member in good standing.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:20:57] So just to be clear, Mormon Stories is group therapy for questioning minds. It is not a place you don't see it as a place for. That's only critical of the church.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] I have interviewed dozens and dozens of faithful, active, believing members. I think I don't know of a more balanced podcast out there in Mormonism that has both interviewed critics and faithful people. I've interviewed Richard and Claudia Bushman, Terrell and Fiona Givens multiple times. I've interviewed so many faithful and devout Mormons. And that's. And I still feel the same way. If someone wants to believe in the church, if they love the church, I respect that. I want to support it. I created a website called Stale DS.com with the express purpose of supporting people. That website's been up for years now. It's still going strong. If you need support to stay in the LDS church, go to stay lds.com I've supported Dan Witherspoon with Mormon Matters, which is a podcast explicitly to help people stay in the church that's owned by my foundation.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:22:02] And.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] And I've supported A Thoughtful Faith, which is another podcast that Gina Colvin helps run. And the specific purpose for A Thoughtful Faith is to help people stay in the church. So I Mormon Stories and all these other assets support people staying in the church. I've never had the intent of pulling people away from the church. If people make that decision, I support that decision because that's their decision to make. But even to this day, even after they excommunicate me, I plan on still supporting people who want to stay in the church and encouraging them to do so. I have no problem with that. And that's the way Mormon stories has always been

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:22:41] flooded with comments. I'm just going to give you a sampling. Snowed no More writes I appreciate all the work that John has done with his podcast and for his willingness to speak out about issues within the Mormon Church. There are many of us that share the same concerns about the church, keeping the truth about church history from the Mountain members and the church's treatment of LGBT people and women. This comment from it's actually text. It never ceases to amaze me how loyalty to an organization can supplant empathy for individuals. This is a comment from Goldengirl. I can only speak for myself, but I recognize some errors in the church but stay in it because of the truths that are there.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:23:21] And finally, a comment from Hoosier I'm struggling with with this eternal family concept taught by the Mormon faith. It appears that it's not really, well, eternal. In fact, it's not even for time. If you have a difference of opinion and speak it like John has done, in a very respectful way, you're asked to leave the eternal family of Mormonism.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:23:43] Some of the doctrine in Mormon shows that relationships survive hereafter and that if you attend the temple and you have made those commitments that your relationships will extend. I believe it was in one of the letters from your Stake president, I believe, that talked about how your membership in the church really determines whether or not those eternal ties will continue and urges you to give this this question about your membership very serious thought. Can you comment on that?

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Yeah, you know, to be honest, here's an area where I stand apart a bit from the brethren. Where I stand with the church and the brethren is that families are extremely important, that families are probably the most important thing in life and that I want to be if there's an afterlife, I want to be with my family in the afterlife. All that I stand with the church and with the brethren on what I don't love is this idea that you have to have a Mormon baptism and a Mormon endowment and a Mormon marriage for your family to stay intact in the afterlife. I just think that God is much bigger and more if God exists, He, she is more loving than that, more supportive.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] And I don't think there's a God up in heaven that's trying to separate families based on whether they were able to to believe that a certain book was historical or that a certain person did or did not talk to God.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] There's 6 plus billion people on this earth. There are maybe 5 million active Mormons at this point. That's less than 1/2 of 1% of the world's population. If God has set up this plan where only those who believe in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon get to be with their families, that just doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't feel right. And so I don't think that this disciplinary council will affect my family and the eternities in any way at all. And I think that's one of the less happy or healthy or positive teachings of the church, frankly. But you know, I respect those who believe it and I think the church has the right to have those views.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] I just, I stand apart from the church in that way. And I think that it's kind of negative and coercive for the church to manipulate people. To think that only an active Mormon family gets to be together in heaven, that just makes no sense to me. And there are just so many active Mormon families that have inactive or non member members of the family. Now that's just heaven. Looks really tragic to me. If only the active Mormons get to be with their families, that's just heaven seems like a catastrophic sad place. If that's true, I don't envision heaven that way.

Historical Precedents, Conditions, and Consequences of Excommunication

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:26:34] A text many other famous Mormons have faced. Disciplinary councils. Please tell us, who are some of your disciplinary council heroes? What are their stories and how do they inspire you?

John Dehlin [00:26:45] John, I'm inspired by Juanita Brooks, who wrote a book on the Mountain Meadows Massacre and was given intense pressure by church leaders to not publish that book. She published it anyway and her work has been vindicated since by the church publishing its own book on the Mountain Meadows Massacre that references her work very directly. I'm very inspired by Fawn Brody, who is David O. McKay's niece, who published a book on Joseph Smith called no Man Knows My History. That book is probably one of the most referenced citations in Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling. I think Fawn Brody's work has been vindicated even though she was excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:27:25] I love Michael Quinn, Quinn and Maxine Hanks and Paul and Margaret Toscano. I've been able to get to know those four very personally. And I think they're noble and honest and caring people. I really respect Simon Southerton, who did work on DNA in the Book of Mormon. He's been disciplined by the church and I respect him. I respect Grant Palmer in his book Joseph Smith, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. I think Grant Palmer was courageous to experience. And Kate Kelly is a personal friend of mine and to me a real modern day hero because she's faced so much and she tried to do it the best way that she could and she was following her conscience.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] There are many others who have faced disciplinary councils. Brent Metcalfe is amazing. I interview him on him, on Mormon stories, and there are many others, but those are just a few. And I'm sorry to all those I left off.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:28:19] In order to retain your membership, as I saw outlined in the letters from your Stake President, you have to meet several criteria, including publicly renouncing and apologizing for any false statements you've made. Ceasing the forum. I guess that means shutting down Mormon stories, stopping promoting groups that are critical or promote dogma that runs contrary to church doctrine. Are you willing to comply with any of those conditions?

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Those are really like 15th century conditions for membership to a church. I mean, the Salt Lake Tribune publishes articles that aren't friendly to faith. You know, Doug Fabrizio and Radio west discusses controversial things all the time. How in the world, in the 21st century is a church asking people not to talk openly about things? And I want to be really clear about something.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] People say that I'm talking openly about my doubts and disbelief and giving voice to doubters because I'm trying to tear people away from the church. That is so wrong. I'm a mental health professional. I'm a few months away from getting my PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. I counsel Mormons every day. And what I can tell you is that by far probably one of the most damaging aspects of Mormon culture is the fact that people feel that they need to keep things hidden, they need to keep things secret, that they can't open, openly discuss and share what they think and what they feel. I think this leads to depression, I think it leads to anxiety, I think it leads to ostracization and marginalization.

John Dehlin [00:29:57] And I think it can even lead to suicide and things more serious. And so it is totally unacceptable for a church leader to say to me, you can support same sex marriage, but you can't speak openly about your support.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] You can support ordained women, but don't ever tell anybody. And you can have doubts, but you can't speak openly about those doubts. I think that's a recipe for mental illness and sadness. And frankly, it doesn't engender a community that's meaningful where people are able to share their heart and their soul with each other.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] And it's not going to be a backbone for the church culturally. That's going to lead to vibrance and vitality. When an organization like the church starts to use sort of Stalinistic techniques or, or Maoist techniques to clamp down on information to prevent people from talking, to punish people if they speak openly, that leads to the death of community, to conscience, to people's mental health and well being. And I would much rather be disciplined than violate my conscience. And so no, I'm not gonna shut down Mormon stories. I'm not gonna take down past episodes that give voice to doubt or questioning or concerns. I'm also not gonna stop interviewing people of faith.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] I'm going to do both because I believe in that. I certainly am not going to stop supporting same sex marriage publicly because there's too much suicide within Mormonism of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Mormons. So I can't agree to those conditions. And frankly, I think they're kind of medieval.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:31:30] Excommunication is a very loaded term. It's a heavy term and it sounds like in some ways you're resigned to it. Here's a text. If given a choice now, after all that's happened, would you have done anything differently?

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Yeah, there's a ton I would have done differently. I would have done a better job. I would have tried to sometimes bring less anger or frustration to the concerns. Sometimes in my best attempt at explaining different sides of the story, things haven't always been said accurately. I can honestly say I've never intended to deceive anybody.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] So, yeah, I wish I could have been more graceful, more diplomatic, but I have to live with that every day. I'm sad that people have been saddened or frustrated by the things I've done. I've had to. You know, it's funny because there's a lot of talk about banning and excommunicating. I've had to ban people from my forums or, or from my Facebook page and sort of excommunicate them from communication with me. And I'm not proud of that. I haven't always handled those things well. So there's a million things I've done wrong. But I'm so proud of the Mormon stories community. Of all the listeners who have supported me over the years, I'm so proud of all the people who have come on Mormon Stories to tell their stories.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] And I'm so happy with the fact that in 2015, 2014, the church is now starting to show more love and support for same sex marriage. They're starting to show more accommodations to women. They're starting to be more open and honest about its history.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] And I think that Mormon Stories is a sliver in the balance of all the things that have led the church to make progress. But I think Mormon Stories has been an important part of that progress and I'm proud of that. And if, if my membership has to be sacrificed for all that good to happen within Mormon church and Mormon culture, I'm super proud and happy. And I'm going to just keep doing what I've been doing. With a lot of help from our listeners.

Impact on the Broader LDS Community and Looking Ahead

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:33:38] The personal consequences of excommunication are pretty clear. Can't participate in meetings, you won't be in full fellowship. What about the LDS community as a whole? How do you think that excommunication apostasy allegations affect the community generally?

John Dehlin [00:33:57] You know, I think that excommunication in general is a barbaric and a medieval kind of practice. As Joanna Brooks has said, it's a 15th century solution to a 21st century problem. I think that it creates an environment where people are scared, where they don't feel welcome, where they feel like they have to keep things secret. And it's just I don't see anything about Christianity or love or kindness in excommunication. There are so many people that have done, you know, really awful, egregious things. If you're a mass murderer, if you're raping children, there's obviously clearly a need to kind of separate that person from the flock.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] But in the 21st century, if you're simply speaking openly about your doubts and disbeliefs, if you're podcasting, if you're blogging, if you're facing Facebooking, if you're simply marching in a pride parade and then you face church discipline. I think it kills mental health and well being. I think it kills a strong and vibrant culture. It makes the church look scared. It makes the church look weak. It makes the church look authoritative.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] I think it sends the wrong message. I think it sends the wrong message outside of Mormonism that the church is kind of barbaric and harsh. In a 21st century world, they're much more constructive and productive ways. I can tell you that.

John Dehlin [00:35:19] Brian King, my stake president, a good man, he spent zero time with me, as far as I'm concerned, trying to really, other than our first meeting where he said, I kind of feel like I should listen to you. He listened for an hour. Other than sort of that, it almost felt like he was doing that because he had to. I felt no genuine love or support from him. And it's just kind of tragic. And so I understand why the church does it. I don't fault them. I think it's their right. But I think I worry that they're shooting themselves in the foot and sort of shooting the messenger.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] And that just prolongs the benefit that they could incur by opening up the dialogue, by letting people talk and share and showing that they're strong and resilient enough to have these conversations openly and publicly without kicking people out.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:36:11] Our time is shot. But I have to ask you just finally that you've held up Reform Judaism as sort of an example of what could happen. Do you think that the LDS Church can be that big tent church that you talked about?

John Dehlin [00:36:27] I think that it will eventually get there. There's no question. I had a personal meeting with Elder Holland too actually, and he did express a real strong desire to have the church be a big tent. In his personal conversations with me, he said that it's going to take some time, that there's still a lot of defensiveness in the church amongst some of the hierarchy. There's still a lot of kind of control and concern. But over time I think what the LDS Church has shown, whether it's with polygamy, whether it's with their giving temple rights and priesthood to, to black men and to blacks, whether it's their increased transparency with history or support of women, they show that they eventually sort of are able to do things right and sort of get on the right page with civilized modern society.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] Unfortunately, they've shown a pattern of it taking kind of two to three decades, 20 to 30 years for them to sort of catch up with the rest of kind of enlightened modern society where. But I do believe that eventually they'll get there. I think that same sex married couples will be able to eventually actively participate in church. I think eventually women will be ordained in the church. And I think the church will continue trying to be candid and I think someday the church will be strong enough to tolerate criticism and dissent. But I just think we're decades away from that and you know, that's okay.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] I wish it was sooner, but at the same time it'll be what it's going to be and we'll be here in the meantime to support those who are on the margins and are punished. And as soon as the church becomes more tolerant and open and diverse, there won't be a need for people like us.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:38:04] If you are disciplined, if you are excommunicated, would you appeal?

John Dehlin [00:38:09] I don't think I'll appeal just because I think it's the church's right to include who they do and don't want in membership. So, no, I don't think I'll appeal. I reserve the right to change my mind, but that's not my plan at this time.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:38:22] John Dillon, thank you so much for your candor. I appreciate it, and good luck. I believe you said February 8th.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] I think that's the plan, but we'll see if that date works.

Jennifer Napier-Pearce [00:38:32] Okay. More coverage of religion and faith right here@sltripp.com thanks so much for tuning into Trip Talk today. We'll see you next time.

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