Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's November 10, 2020. We're in the evening here and we have a special Mormon Stories podcast episode for today. This episode is part of the series we're doing with journalist Lynn Packer. For those of you who haven't tuned in yet, we did a few episodes with Lynn Packer. Lynn Packer was the nephew of Mormon Apostle Boyd K. Packer. Power broker and Apostle Boyd K. Packer. He was also a really important kind of legendary journalist who covered Mormonism and journalism in Utah in the 60s, 70s and 80s. He was a journalism professor at BYU and we've already spent two episodes, one talking about the, the rise of Boyd K.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] Packer into power and prominence within the LDS Church. And then we spent a second episode hearing from Lynn talking about him breaking into the field of journalism. Tomorrow we're going to be continuing our, our important coverage with Lynn. We're going to be talking about many of the exciting stories that he covered as a journalist in Utah and covering Mormonism, including Ted Bundy and, and many other, you know, Mark Hoffman and many other important stories. But the story that Lynn Packer is probably most well known for breaking is he is the journalist, the investigative journalist who uncovered the lies and the fraud being perpetrated by Mormon general authority Paul H.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] Dunn that led to Paul H. Dunn being put on emeritus status. So we are, tomorrow we're going to be covering those two issues. Lynn's career as a journalist continued and Paul H. Dunn. But as I was doing prep work, I stumbled upon a 30 minute video which Lynn Packer released about four years ago when he was finishing his biography of Paul H. Dunn. And it is a really, really important, it turns out it's a really important 30 minute video. I'm, I'm entitling this episode. J. Reuben Clark, Boyd K. Packer and the Charted course of the LDS Church in Education.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] This is a 30 minute video Lynn's already produced. It's got audio and video, lots of cool slides. But what this, what this video, the reason why this video is so important and the reason why I wanted to share it with you and have you listen to it before we talk about Paul. Each done is because for those of you who've been following Mormon stories, you'll know that we've already Talked about the 1912 New York Times article where the Book of Abraham, you know, was covered as a front page article in the New York Times where it was basically debunked by Egyptologists. Then you fast forward to the Shannon Caldwell Montez interview that we did, interviews that we did where we talked about the secret Mormon meetings of 1922, where the, where the Mormon Church found out that B.H.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] roberts had basically debunked the Book of Mormon as a historical document and how they basically decided to hide that and send BH Roberts off on a mission so that they could do as much as they could to help erase from Mormon Church leadership or from the Mormon Church membership at large any memory of B.H. roberts's acknowledgment of the problems with the Book of Mormon and the New York Times acknowledgment of the problems of the Book of Abraham. And if you remember that series, you'll remember that there was this battle going on between Joseph Fielding Smith on the one side and BH Roberts and, you know, Woodstow and Talmadge and Eyring and other scientists.

John Dehlin [00:03:52] And basically we've talked about how Joseph Fielding Smith won. Well, what we're talking about today is something really important. What we're talking about today is something that kind of bridges the. Those 1922 meetings with the rise of Boyd K. Packer that leads to the excommunication of, you know, it leads to the shutdown of the Leonard Arrington administration in church history. It leads to the excommunication of the September 6, it leads to the shutting, the denunciation of Sunstone, and it even, it even, you know, leads to the excommunications of people like myself and Kate Kelly and Sam Young and others in the 2000s and 2000s. And basically what we're going to be talking about today is this moment in time where J.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] Reuben Clark, who was a member of the First Presidency and an attorney, writes this historic manual for CES instructors. And the manual is called the Charted Course of the Church Education, Church in Education. And it turns out that around 1954, I think I have the year right, this really seminal summer series is held where Boyd K. Packer's there and J. Reuben Clark is there. And basically it's J. Reuben Clark and Harold B. Lee and Boyd K. Packer deciding for the church and for its education system that science needs to be pushed out, that critical thought needs to be pushed out, science needs to be pushed out, critical thinking needs to be pushed out.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] And what that all needs to be replaced by is emotion based, faithful education. And this becomes J. Reuben Clark's legacy, Harold B. Lee's legacy with correlation, and eventually it becomes Boyd K. Packer legacy along with Joseph Fielding Smith and and it even involves Paul H. Dunn. And so you really can't understand Boyd K. Packer or Paul H. Dunn or the modern church without understanding J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee. And I'm going to argue, and I think this is what Lynne Packer argues, this really important manual that gets created, the speech that gets given in this manual that gets created called the Charted Course of the LDS Church in Education.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] So I'm going to share this with you now. It's 30 minutes. You will much more enjoy my subsequent interviews with Lynn Packer tomorrow on not only Paul H. Dunn, but also on Tim Ballard at Operation Underground Railroad and other things we're going to discuss. You'll enjoy all that more if you have this context. So I hope you enjoy this 30 minute presentation and I now give you Lynn Packer's presentation and I hope you enjoy it.

Lynn Packer's Presentation on CES and J. Reuben Clark

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:06:56] I'm Lynn Packer. This slideshow presentation is a supplement to my book Lying for the the Paul H. Dunn Stories. Dunn began his career as a CES instructor, that is in the church education system at a time in the 1950s when that system was torn between whether to educate or indoctrinate.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:17] The key year was 1954. It was a pivotal time, a time when top church leaders were finally able to chart a clearly defined course. What was going on in 1954 was a year after the Korean War ended. The French at the same time lost in Vietnam and the United States became engaged there.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:39] Senator Joe McCarthy, who was looking for communists everywhere, including in Congress, was censured. There was the very important Supreme Court decision Brown v. Board of Education that integrated the school system. The 1955 Chevrolet was introduced. It was the first year that air conditioning was optional for that car. And that V8 engine, the design of that engine persists today. And the Corvette, Perry Como and Doris Day topped the music charts. The top movies were Rear Window and White Christmas. And there were mass vaccinations for polio that began. People my age can remember having friends and acquaintances who spent time in iron lungs in 1954 with Mormonism.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:32] There was no set direction for learning and teaching history. The church was vacillating on one hand and in one direction. It was promoting critical thinking in the education system as opposed to praying. It was at times reason based and other times faith based.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:56] There was scientific proof by study that was taught by some and or testimony by revelation. And it was modernism versus fundamentalism. And those were terms that were used back then. Progressive LDS leaders had been losing the liberal education fight. And these are Some of them. And as an example, B.H. roberts, who was an apostle, also a church historian, at one point deplored the fact that most Mormons were largely ignorant of LDS history and had so many naive misconceptions about it. That was back then, he said, that many would be deeply disturbed if they knew its actual history.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:39] Another example, B.H. roberts versus another apostle, Joseph Fielding Smith. In the discussion about the age of Earth, again two different directions. BH Roberts believed that pre Adamites, that's man before Adam, existed for millions of years. Where Joseph Fielding Smith said that and taught that Adam was the first man and the earth was only 6,000 years old.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:04] Let's take a look at 1954 in two different parts of the world. One is the BYU campus at Provo, Utah. And that's where the Church resumed after more than a decade. CES Church Education Summer schools in another part of the world. At Geneva, Switzerland, there was a very important scientific meeting.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:28] The developments in Provo and Geneva were on a collision course, a collision course between faith and science. And then the Internet also comes into play. In the summer of 1954 in Geneva, European countries formed the Scientific Research Center CERN. CERN was looking for the origins of the universe and man. That organization continues today, has giant particle accelerators in Switzerland. Science clashed with religion and CERN later invented the World Wide Web, which became the Internet.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:06] Meanwhile, on BYU's campus in Provo, in the summer of 1954, the church began taking the right fork in the road in terms of education. It reintroduced summer schools for seminary and institute teachers. The 1954 school stressed religion over science and testimony over academics. Harold B. Lee, who was an apostle at the time, was the primary instructor. J. Reuben Clark in the First Presidency was a lecturer and probably the main figure or force behind the education. That summer, with the Church taking the orthodox route, it was fundamentalism winning over modernism. And again, those were terms that were used back then. Teachers were instructed to build and protect students faith.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:03] Gaining a testimony became more important than gaining knowledge. Testimony with the LDS as a spiritual witness by the Holy Ghost, it became the litmus test for Mormon college, seminary and institute teachers and what they were seeking on purpose. Cookie cutter instructors to create or develop cookie cutter students.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:29] Of course, how testimony works is it works mostly with the heart and with feeling. And it can come from a positive source like the Holy Ghost or Jesus or God or angels. It can also come, as the LDS Church teaches, from Satan. It can be actual visions where people see things, or whispers where they hear things, or voices, or Impressions, manifestations. All these terms are used. Promptings of the spirit, inspiration, warnings, comfortings, burnings, influences, feelings.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:13] And there can be negative inspiration like temptations and evil thoughts. Five decades later, the Internet now delivers facts that illuminate LDS doctrines and historical claims that were set in stone that summer of 1954. The church essentially painted itself into a corner by setting the history and the doctrines in concrete.

Lynn Packer [00:13:44] And today, partly and maybe mostly because of the Internet, these 1954 chickens are coming home to roost, like information about the First Division, the Seer Stone, the Curse of Dark Skin, polygamy, the Book of Abraham, gay issue and others.

Lynn Packer [00:14:07] Elder Stephen Snow is now the LDS Church historian and he said in the past there was a tendency to keep a lot of the records closed. But the world has changed with access to information on the Internet. We can't continue that pattern. We need to continue to be more open.

Lynn Packer [00:14:24] Fortunately, he said, seminaries and institutes and curriculum have really stepped up. We would like to talk about these sensitive issues. In September 2014, LDS authorities instructed priesthood leaders to send doubting or inquisitive members to a series of essays@LDS.org and then this is what the Church says. The purpose of the Gospel topic section is to provide accurate and transparent information on church history and doctrine within the framework of faith. When members have questions regarding church history and doctrine, possibly arising when detractors spread misinformation and doubt, and had they been more honest, sometimes correct information.

Lynn Packer [00:15:10] What about events that led up to the 1954 CES Summer School at BYU? Remember, CES was vacillating and here's some examples of when Pro and anti intellectualism in 1911, there was a purge at BYU. Church authorities objected to evolution and biblical criticism that was being taught on campus.

Lynn Packer [00:15:38] Then in the 1930s, the pendulum sort of swings the other way and CES is putting emphasis on scholarship. But at that time the church leaders, that's the top church leaders, really lost doctrinal control. And then what followed was the Depression and the New Deal time.

Lynn Packer [00:16:00] During that time, LDS leaders also lost political and economic control. A little bit more detail about that 1911 cleansing because of modernism. There was a crackdown on faculty who were teaching evolution and higher biblical criticism. Professors that had taught modern scientific thought that it was compatible with Mormon theology.

Lynn Packer [00:16:26] Two were forced out, two later resigned. There was a huge protest and 80% of the students petitioned to keep the teachers, but they were unsuccessful. Intellectualism rebounded during the Depression era. Mormon institute and seminary teachers began seeking advanced degrees at the Chicago Divinity School especially, and Other institutions of higher learning outside the state.

Lynn Packer [00:16:55] Non Mormon religion scholars actually taught at BYU CES summer schools. Among them the famed theologian Edgar J. Goodspeed. And among many of his writings was a book on the Apostle Paul. During that depression Utah unemployment hit 36%, the fourth highest in the United States.

Lynn Packer [00:17:18] The divorce rate went up and remember most Utahns probably near 80% are LDs. Births and marriages went down and New Deal programs from the President Franklin Roosevelt rescued Utah in the 1930s. Utah Mormons drifted. That's a term that church leaders used as they lost control of the members hearts and minds.

Lynn Packer [00:17:44] The members supported Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal. They voted for FDR overwhelmingly in 32, 36, 40 and 44. They voted out polygamist Apostle Republican US Senator Reed Smoot who it seemed like had been in the Senate forever. And they also voted to repeal Prohibition.

Lynn Packer [00:18:06] Well conservative LDS leaders sought to stop that drift. J. Reuben Clark Jr. Led the way. Who is he? He was a member of the first Presidency, an attorney and a very devout Republican. Worked as a Republican for the U.S. state Department in three Republican administrations. He was an ardent anti communist and a virulent anti Semite. He wrote the charted course of the Church in education, an important work that spelled out how Mormons should be educated. He created the LDS Church welfare plan to counter the New Deal. And he was a mentor to Harold B. Lee who headed the welfare program, went on to be apostle and went on to be president of the church.

Lynn Packer [00:18:55] Clark really, even though he was just in the first Presidency took the helm under presidents Grant and George Smith who were ill. Here he seemed with President Heber J. Grant and with President George Albert Smith as first counselor. And he was the de facto president from about 1930 to 1951. And then a major player when David O. McKay, seen on the far right was president until Clark's death in 1961.

Lynn Packer [00:19:30] His right wing orthodoxy. He appointed or opposed Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal government dole. He said the New Deal was instituted by Satan. He advised Mormons struggling during the Depression to reject all government aid. And he called those Mormons who rejected government aid the true heroes of the Depression that they might keep off the dull.

Lynn Packer [00:19:56] Heber J. Grant at the time he was president called Harold B. Lee to establish a church wide welfare program. Grant also considered Roosevelt a dangerous left wing radical. As President Grant urged LDS members to vote against fdr. And he said our primary purpose this is for welfare was to set up insofar as it might be possible a system under which the curse of idleness would be done away with the evils of a dole abolished.

Lynn Packer [00:20:29] Okay, Harold B. Lee, he was an educator, then solely city commissioner. He was a stake president. He established the welfare program or a welfare program in his stake. And that's the one that became the model for the LDS Church.

Lynn Packer [00:20:45] Then he became a J. Reuben Clark protege, was named an apostle in 1941, and he headed the Correlation Committee in 1960 after he was named apostle. And here's a couple of shots of the church welfare program. Here's one of the bishop storehouses that his stake had in the 30s. During the Depression it got started.

Lynn Packer [00:21:11] It would take years before it could supplant government aid. And here he's seen with President George Albert Smith at one of the welfare centers. LDS leaders were glad when FDR died. They celebrated his death. J. Reuben Clark flat out said, the Lord gave the people of The United States 4 Elections in order to get rid of him. They failed. So he God held an election of his own and cast one vote and then took him away.

Lynn Packer [00:21:45] Little different from Joseph Fielding Smith, who was an apostle. There are some of us who have felt that it is really an act of Providence. The CES summer schools were canceled during the 40s and early 50s. It was because of everyone recovering from the depression, World War II.

Lynn Packer [00:22:08] And meanwhile, during this time there were growing concerns over CES's liberal academic approach. So now let's go to the CES Summer School of 1954, where the teaching of the teachers resumed and orthodoxy became Paramount. The 54 school's main instructors were, as I mentioned before, J. Reuben Clark and Harold B. Lee, the mentor and his protege.

Boyd K. Packer and the 1954 CES Summer School

Lynn Packer [00:22:39] Now a new protege emerges. My uncle, Boyd K. Packer. It was sort of the beginning of the passing of the orthodoxy torch. Who would carry on what was taught there in 1954? His calling was that it was at that summer school. The Packer, who was a 30 at the time coming, caught the attention of Apostle Harold B. Lee, who was then 55.

Lynn Packer [00:23:08] He agreed with Lee and J. Reuben Clark that the church education system and its instructors had strayed. And here's some of his comments about the 54 Summer School. Opposition emerged again in the Institutes of Religion in the early 50s. So he's aware of its sort of vacillating back and forth. The brethren called the summer session with Elder Harold B. Lee of the 12 as our teacher.

Lynn Packer [00:23:34] Where the summer schools of the 30s had focused on biblical archaeology, theology and textual analysis, elderly focused instead on the importance of faith and testimony. Rather than emphasizing the scholarship of the teachers Elderly placed the emphasis on protecting the faith of the students.

Lynn Packer [00:23:55] This is an important document and an important speech in this story. The charted course of the Church in education. It was J. Reuben Clark's landmark address. And they. That's what they called it, landmark address and called it akin to Scripture. He gave it to the instructors in 1938, but World War II broke out in Europe right after that. And so it was never really sort of canonized until 1954 and it continues in force today.

Lynn Packer [00:24:31] What did Packer say about the charted course? Well, it became his measuring rod for philosophies and teachings. He said that address should be read by every seminary and institute teacher every year. It's insightful, profound, prophetic. He said, it is Scripture and it is revelation.

Lynn Packer [00:24:56] Gaining and bearing a testimony became paramount for CES teachers. And the typical testimony that so many Mormons see can bear. I know that the church is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and so on.

Lynn Packer [00:25:15] Now, here are some excerpts from the charted course. The first requisite of a teacher for teaching these principles is a personal testimony of their truth. No amount of learning, no amount of study, and no number of scholastic degrees can take the place of this testimony. And remember, he's saying this in 1954 to a lot of seminary institute teachers who have advanced degrees.

Lynn Packer [00:25:40] He said, one living, burning, honest testimony of a righteous, God fearing man that Jesus is the Christ and that Jesus, Joseph was God's prophet is worth a thousand books and lectures aimed at debasing the gospel to a system of ethics or seeking to rationalize infinity.

Lynn Packer [00:25:58] Going on with excerpts. The youth of the church want to gain testimonies about our beliefs. Doubt must not be planted in their hearts. Things of the natural world will not explain things of the spiritual world. Our church schools cannot be manned by unconverted, untestimonied teachers. And then he said, you've got some members of the faculty who are destroying the faith of our students. You ought to get rid of them.

Lynn Packer [00:26:28] There were other instructors who were Joseph Fielding Smith and Mark E. Peterson. Joseph Fielding smith at the 1954 school was present of the Quorum of the Twelve. And he spoke on the Origin of Man. His 1954 book that was just released that year took a liberal view of the creation and strongly rejected the theory of evolution. And he was there pitching that book to be used in seminaries and institutes.

Lynn Packer [00:27:00] Markey Peterson addressed race problems during the 54 school. And there he gave a speech that is being widely circulated on the Internet. And I Think most people who read it on the Internet are not really aware of the circumstances under which he gave it.

Lynn Packer [00:27:19] He said God sent Negroes to earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin as a curse. He said if the Negro is faithful all his days, he can enter the celestial kingdom, but he will go there as a servant.

Lynn Packer [00:27:32] This was just a wildly racist speech and it goes beyond blacks. He said God segregated spirit both as to blood and place of residence. So he's not just talking about real dark skin, but moderately dark skin and where people were assigned by God on earth.

Lynn Packer [00:27:51] Why God sent Chinese to China and Negroes to darkest Africa. He explained. So. So he was making the case that whites being sent to America were really blessed by God and special spirits in the pre existence. J. Reuben Clark took the stand. My way or the highway. Any teacher who does not have a real testimony of the truth of the Gospel and of the divine mission of Joseph Smith, including the First Vision, has any place in the church school system.

Lynn Packer [00:28:23] If there be any such, he should resign at once. If the commissioner knows of any such, that is, if they're boss and he does not resign, the commissioner should request his resignation. In other words, fire them. The first Presidency expects this pruning to be made and Boyd Packer would become the pruner or one of the main pruners.

Lynn Packer [00:28:51] He said the more liberally inclined teachers, and he's speaking of this 54 school. The more liberally inclined teachers later indicated by their actions what their attitudes were concerning the seminar and President Clark's message. Some left the system of their own accord. Others fought to accommodate speculation in place of or mingled with revealed truths.

Lynn Packer [00:29:16] The CES leadership purge took place right before and right after the 54 school. And young spiritual hardliners replaced old scholars. And their mission of the new leadership was to take the church back to its Pentecostal roots. The old Franklin west was the commissioner, the top guy and his assistants, J. Carl Wood and Joy Dunyan.

Lynn Packer [00:29:47] Franklin west was stunned by J. Reuben Clark's rebuke of this system. You can imagine as he's sitting there in 1954 hearing this. He believes students should be challenged to think. Ernest Wilkinson, who was president of BYU and had recently been put in charge of the church education system, sacked west just prior to this summer school.

Lynn Packer [00:30:11] And he was suspicious of anyone associated with Dr. West. J. Carl Wood was exiled to the Logan LDS Institute. He was my instructor in 1962. I had him for the teachings of Paul and he used Goodspeed's text. He did not use Paul's life and letters that had been written by an LDS scholar. I have to say, far and away he was my favorite religion teacher.

Lynn Packer [00:30:48] Joy F. Dunyan opposed using Joseph Fielding Smith's anti evolution book as a seminary institute text. He went directly to President David All McKay and complained about that and what was going on. His new boss Barrett, who felt Dunyan's disloyalty and going over his head to President McKay indicated he would be difficult to work with in the future.

Lynn Packer [00:31:10] So he was replaced in 1955, the next year by Boyd Packer. The new leadership mentioned Barrett's name and Ted Tuttle and Boyd Packer were his assistants. The authorized CES Church history. This is the one put out by the church explains what was going on. I said. The events of the 1954 Summer School sent ripples throughout the seminary and institute system. Harold B. Lee developed a close relationship with Barrett and his assistants Tuttle and Packer. Barrett recalled Lee counseling him that he should break away from the previous policies of the Department of Education.

Lynn Packer [00:31:57] Boy Packer's biography says that Brother Tuttle and Boyd were frequently challenged by a spirit of intellectualism that had spread under former administrators who had promoted men of such leanings over more orthodox religion teachers. Their motto was Follow the Brethren. They stressed the need for orthodoxy throughout the system.

Lynn Packer [00:32:22] Well, how does Paul Dunn fit in? You know, the one that I wrote the book about? Well, it's interesting. Boyd Packer and Paul Dunn were both there in 1954 as seminary teachers. Paul Dunn was there one year after he graduated from college and here's a shot of him in college.

Lynn Packer [00:32:47] And Don had been teaching early morning seminary for two years in 1954. So he was really sort of a greenie and actually started teaching early morning seminary before he got his bachelor's degree. Boyd, on the other hand, had been teaching Release time seminary for five years in 1954.

Lynn Packer [00:33:13] Now Greg Prince, the one who was going to write an authorized biography of Paul Dunn, had interviewed Dunn and talked about Dunn and Packer crossing swords at this 1954 summer school. Prince said one of the things they did was to write curriculum. So apparently those attending would work extensively even on a new orthodox curriculum.

Lynn Packer [00:33:42] Dunn told him several of us, including Boyd and myself were assigned to church history. And very quickly it became a two person debate and the others on the committee were just looking on as Packer and Dunn debate over how the direction curriculum should take. Dunn's position that with seminary teachers should expose all church history to students with an instructor present to explain any negative aspects of that history.

Lynn Packer [00:34:11] Boyd's feeling was no, we need to hide it from them. This is according to Paul Dunn. And Dunn said, I think that's where he decided I was his foe. And in my book I go into the relationship between Boyd Packer and Paul Dunn.

Lynn Packer [00:34:29] Paul Dunn's advancement in the church education system it came despite the facts that he had not attended church until high school. He never attended seminary or institute, did not go on a mission, and was not a college graduate when he began teaching seminary.

Lynn Packer [00:34:48] And it was Dunn who replaced a CES supervisor as he advanced in the system. Who had studied in Chicago was G. Brian Doane, who was 56 in 1956 and he had a PhD already from USC and was replaced by someone who didn't have an advanced degree.

Lynn Packer [00:35:12] Paul Dunn's rise was meteoric. Began teaching at seminary in 1952 at 28, as I indicated, was named assistant principal in 1953 at 29 he was promoted to director of the USC Institute and coordinator for all Southern California part time institutes in 1956 at 32.

Lynn Packer [00:35:36] Boyd Packer visited the area in 1957 and was impressed with the spirit of cooperation and unity among the personnel and teachers. And then Dunn was called as a general authority in 1964 just at age 40. This postscript well, it seems like the Church is altering its course now many years after 1954, and probably trying to see if there's a way out of having been painted into a corner.

Shifts in the Church's Educational Direction

Lynn Packer [00:36:10] For example, Apostle Russell Ballard now in 2016 dialed back J. Reuben Clark's testimony doctrine, Ballard's position and the Gospel topic Essays that I talked about earlier signal the Church's first major change in its educational direction since 1954 in this year. Earlier in the year he gave a speech and to whom? It was to CES teachers. Here's what he said. Gone are the days when students were protected from people who attacked the church. Gone are the days when a student asked an honest question and the teacher responded, don't worry about it. Gone are the days when a student raised a sincere concern and a teacher bore his or her testimony as a response intended to avoid the issue.

Lynn Packer [00:37:02] Now the church website has posted this speech and talks about it says teachers must have an understanding of important topics, in other words, of controversial topics. Elder Ballard shared the examples of polygamy, seer stones, different accounts of the first vision, the process of the translation of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham, gender issues, race, the priesthood and Heavenly Mother. Some of these chickens that are coming home to roost that I talked about earlier.

Lynn Packer [00:37:37] Using the 11 gospel topic essays available on LDS.org as an example, Elder Ballard said it is crucial that teachers know the content in these essays like you know the back of your hand and continuing what the website says. As your teachers pay the price to better understand our history, doctrine and practices better than you do now, you will be prepared to provide thoughtful, careful and inspired answers to your students questions. It's important to not pass along faith promoting or unsubstantiated rumors or outdated understandings and explanations of the doctrines and practices of the past, ballard said.

Lynn Packer [00:38:19] So I hope this presentation has provided my book's readers at least a glimpse at the backdrop for the Paul Dunn story. Print edition of the book is now available at the Amazon.com bookstore and more information@lyingforthelord.com.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] All right everyone, that was the brief presentation by Lynn Packer. I think it's going to be really helpful as I think it's going to be really helpful as you join us for our interview tomorrow with Lynn or the next series with Lynn, where we talk about his journalism career, where we talk about the lies and the fraud of Paul H. Dunn, Mormon General Authority Paul H. Dunn that Lynn Packer exposed as an investigative journalist. And as we go on to talk about Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad, which Lynn Packer believes is sort of a modern version of, I think by his, by his sort of estimation, let's just say questionable if not fraudulent behavior on the part of a modern day Mormon kind of celebrity slash folk hero.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] I'm not making those charges. Lynn's Lynn's making those charges. And so we're going to be interviewing Lynn about that and we may even have others on to talk about, you know, Mormon beliefs, modern Mormon beliefs about child sex trafficking, QAnon and and operation Underground Railroad. Anyway, thanks for joining us tonight. Hope you enjoyed it. And we'll see you guys again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody. Have a great day.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.