Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Carah Burrell · Guest: Emma
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introducing Emma and the Episode
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's February 28, 2022 and we have what I think is a very important and special Mormon Stories podcast interview for you today. Today we are going to be interviewing Emma. Hey, Emma, welcome.
Emma [00:00:21] Hi. Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:00:23] Just to give you an intro of what today's interview is going to be about, Emma grew up in what someone might call a prepper Mormon family. For those of you who have never been Mormon, I'll just tell you what that is. Basically, the Mormon Church is officially called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and like many conservative Christian religious traditions, believe that in theory Jesus is going to be coming back any day. And for probably most Mormons, that's just some far off thing that's going to happen way in the future and they don't really spend a lot of time thinking about the second coming of Jesus or the end of times.
John Dehlin [00:01:05] But historically, within the Mormon Church, for since the founding of the church with Joseph Smith, there's always been sort of a conservative group of Mormons that regardless of the generation, 150 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, 10 years ago, today they feel like Jesus is coming any minute. And so this idea of prepper is you got to prepare for Jesus's second coming. And what it, what it really amounts to is buying tents, buying, you know, food supply, buying ammo, 72 hour kits, sometimes even selling everything you have and moving to the mountains to either literally wait for Jesus to come or to prepare for Jesus to come.
John Dehlin [00:01:51] And it, and that's the thing. And if any of you have followed the Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow story, you will know that sometimes this sort of, this sort of fundamentalist Mormon prepper mentality can even lead to unhealthy or unsafe living conditions, let's say, like those of Tara Westover in the, in the book Educated, which we've covered on Mormon stories or in more extreme cases, kind of lead to the death, deaths of spouses and, or children.
John Dehlin [00:02:25] And it kind of runs the gamut. So we've covered this here and there on Mormon Stories podcast. We've certainly covered the Chad Dabel and Lori Valo story on Mormon stories. What we've never done is interviewed somebody who was raised in a sort of prepper Mormon family and, and that's who we're going to be interviewing today. We're interviewing Emma and she is courageously offered to tell her story and just to kind of give a preview of her story. So that, you know, what we're going to be talking about.
John Dehlin [00:02:59] You know, we're going to talk about her parents getting married, about them moving as a family to a rural, in this case, Colorado community. And this even involves like construction of buildings that are built in preparation for the end times.
John Dehlin [00:03:20] This definitely involves a lot of the thought leaders that, that Mormon preppers usually look to to help inspire their thinking. What's the name of the one book we referenced?
Emma [00:03:32] Visions of Glory by John Pontius.
John Dehlin [00:03:35] John Pontius. And. But then we're also going to be talking about so what it's like to grow up in a Mormon prepper family. Then we're going to take a bit of a, not a detour, but we're going to talk about Emma's mission in the Philippines. And that's probably going to be its own part two, because Emma had a mission in the Philippines very similar to my mission in Guatemala, where there's really no other way to say it. Either super low quality and, or fraudulent baptisms where numbers were the focus.
John Dehlin [00:04:05] And basically a developing country like Latin America, like the Philippines, where missionaries were pressured to have high numbers of baptisms in ways that pretty much anyone would agree were kind of high pressure sales, anti Christian, kind of almost business like fraudulent techniques. So we're going to spend some time on her mission in the Philippines. I've always wanted to know what it was like to serve a mission in the Philippines. I've always guessed that it was similar to Latin American missions or African missions. And we're going to hear about that today as a part two with Emma. And then part three. We're going to be talking about Emma kind of waking up, starting to question her Mormon slash prepper slash fundamentalist upbringing.
John Dehlin [00:04:54] She goes to BYU Idaho, she goes to BYU Provo and, and ends up coming out as queer. And to her prepper Mormon parents and to her bishop and stake president, what's that like to come out as queer to fundamentalist Mormon parents? And when I say fundamentalist, I don't mean polygamist in this case necessarily. As far as I know, no, definitely not. And then what her faith journey has been like since kind of having that kind of sexual identity awakening. And then also that probably led to a faith awakening. And that's how we'll end as sort of part three, coming out of a orthodox prepper Mormon family as queer and what that's like.
John Dehlin [00:05:35] And then how does that interact with byu? So that's kind of the overview of today's episode. I am just so honored and thrilled as always, to have my co host and partner in the Open Stories foundation and, and with Mormon Stories, Carah Burrell with us. Carah.
Carah Burrell [00:05:54] Oh, hey, John.
John Dehlin [00:05:56] How are you doing?
Carah Burrell [00:05:56] I'm doing so good. I mean, when you started reading, like, you guys should know, like, John was just kind of reading the outline for Emma and he's like, kara, go make sure you read this right now. And I just closed my laptop immediately. Cause I was like, no, I want to have like a real live reaction to these stories because these are going to be, this is going to be an intense episode. I am so honored and thrilled as. Just as John is for me to be his co host. I'm honored and thrilled just to be here and watch this story unfold. So thank you so much, so much, Emma, for being here.
Emma [00:06:22] Yeah, thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Carah Burrell [00:06:25] It's going to be intense.
John Dehlin [00:06:26] We did have, I'll just say this. We did have a bit of a lively weekend in terms of like, I guess so.
Carah Burrell [00:06:32] I mean, is that what you meant? How am I doing?
John Dehlin [00:06:34] Well, yeah, partly.
Carah Burrell [00:06:35] How you doing?
John Dehlin [00:06:36] Yeah. Yeah. So we were, we were honored to be featured in several news articles this weekend by the Salt Lake Tribune. And I just want to say we're just so grateful for all the support that we've received. And, and Carah, I, you know, I think you were on the receiving end of some mean spiritedness or bullying. And I just want to call that out and say, well, Carah, number one, you're an important part of Mormon stories in the Open Stories Foundation. Number two, we're so grateful to have you on the team. And number three, you haters that come after Carah, come after me. Don't come after Carah. She is only a good hearted person doing really good work. And I'm really sorry, Carrie, you have to face some of that bullying.
Carah Burrell [00:07:19] No, almost the opposite actually. Like, if people want to talk to me, I'll talk to them. So I wish people would stop, you know, making up ideas instead of just like coming directly to talk to me. It's kind of how I would rather. That's how I would phrase it. It's like, talk to me. I'm a nice person. Don't just make up rumors or just like smears about me or something, so.
John Dehlin [00:07:35] Well, I'm sorry you have to deal with that, Carah. And I'm really grateful that you put yourself on the line literally every day in ways that people will never understand to do this really hard work. And I feel bad that some of this residual difficulty, you know, confronts you and your Family. So I'm sorry for that, and I'm grateful.
Emma [00:07:57] Yeah.
Carah Burrell [00:07:58] I like how you just said, though, that, like, you were honored to be featured in the Salt Lake Tribune, and that's. That was such a nice way of putting it, John. I'm sure you opened up the newspaper, like, honored. Honored. I'm honored. Sure. That's what you said.
John Dehlin [00:08:09] Yeah.
Carah Burrell [00:08:10] Anyway. But, yeah, it's all good. Hurt people. Hurt people sometimes, you know?
John Dehlin [00:08:15] Yeah.
Emma [00:08:15] Anyway.
John Dehlin [00:08:16] Well, you're a legend, and you're only. You've only been doing this, like, eight or nine or 10 months, so thank you. Thank you.
Carah Burrell [00:08:23] Yeah, thanks, John. Thanks, Mom. Stories, listeners. Everything's good, though.
Emma's Background and Mormon Prepper Overview
John Dehlin [00:08:27] All right. So, Emma, thank you so much for coming. Is there anything you would want to add or take away or correct from that opening?
Emma [00:08:37] That was a great opening. I think you covered it great.
John Dehlin [00:08:40] Okay. And I do want. I did talk to you about this ahead of time. This is really hard because everyone, pretty much everyone, loves their family, at least on some level, if not deeply. And, you know, we're all. Carah and I are both sensitive to the fact that for you to tell this story, you have to tell stories that involve your family members, and that. That is. Can be difficult for family relations. And on the one hand, silence is the killer, and if we don't have open discussion and transparency and sunlight, that allows harm to continue. And then on the other hand, sometimes family relations can be the casualty of transparency and openness.
John Dehlin [00:09:21] So is there anything you want to say about your intent specifically to family members so that they can at least hear you say why you're doing this interview and why you feel like it's important to be open and honest and transparent and how you are coming from a place of love and not malice.
Emma [00:09:41] Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, I hope that eventually they do listen to this and that I really do believe that they think everything they're doing is good and right and true, and that's why they're doing it. But from a different perspective, I see some of the harm that it's causing and the toll that it's taking. And so I hope that eventually this opens a conversation, because after coming out, I haven't had a great relationship with my family. It's been very rocky. And so I think this would, I mean, add a little to that, but not really change what's happening with my family. So I hope that it would open conversations to where we can really discuss and talk about what's happening.
John Dehlin [00:10:25] And if you. If you were to give a reason for why you Wanted to talk about kind of the prepper culture, let's just say within Mormonism. And, you know, we don't want to give away the ending, but if you just want to. If let's say there's some prepper sort of more fundamentalist. I don't know if prepper is even termed as an. If it's deemed as an offensive term or if they have a term they would prefer us to use. It's. You can email us and let us know. But if you wanted to speak to that group and explain why you feel like it's important to talk about Mormon prepper culture, but in a constructive, healthy way, what. What would you say in terms of your intention and why you want to speak out about this?
Emma [00:11:07] I think that that culture definitely affects everyone in your circle, especially your family. And so that I would hope that people in that culture would think more about their kids and kind of how that's affecting them and just maybe give them a second thought of like, okay, why am I really doing this? Because a lot of preppers do it to protect their family, but I think sometimes it has the opposite effect. So maybe give them a second thought of why you're doing what you're doing.
John Dehlin [00:11:37] So in your experience, and maybe even not just your personal experience, but what you've seen in the experience of others, do you feel like kind of Mormon prepper culture was harmful to you in important ways or significant ways to your family?
Emma [00:11:54] Yeah, I think it's taken a huge financial toll on my family and health, especially on my father and my mother. And then just like the fear growing up of thinking the day was gonna end tomorrow, like Christ coming tomorrow. You know, do I go to college, Do I do all these things? It was always an unknown because why would you prepare for your future when it's going to end tomorrow?
John Dehlin [00:12:20] Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well then, without any further ado, do you, do you even. I was going to just provide a little bit of historical context. It'll sound a tiny bit repetitive. Do you, do you want to do that or do you want me to do that? Just for our non Mormon listeners or for our less studious Mormon listeners, just about Joseph Smith and end times kind of prophecies and stuff and kind of the long standing residue of this culture. Do you want to talk about that? Do. Have you studied that? Do you know about that history at all?
Emma [00:12:57] I know what was told to me growing up, kind of like the different prophecies and what we were told, but it's kind of incomplete in parts. So you Go forward and okay, give that background.
John Dehlin [00:13:07] I'll make this really quick and then I want you to still tell everything you were taught. So, okay, so Joseph Smith, when he founded the Mormon Church in 1830, was in no way alone. Like, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses that are very focused on the end times. There were a lot of conservative Christian groups in the, you know, upper New York area in the 1820s and 30s that were expecting Jesus to come. Because of course, in the New Testament, when Jesus dies, there are interpretations of, of Jesus's words that are he's going to come again and that he'll return. And then there's the whole book of Revelations at the end of the New Testament that people interpret as meaning, as having all sorts of symbolism regarding prophecies that predict the second coming of Jesus.
John Dehlin [00:13:56] And there's things about wars and earthquakes and the moon turning to blood and, you know, Gog of Magog and two prophets being killed in the streets of Jerusalem and all of these signs that are called out in revelations in the New Testament as being signs that, that Jesus is coming back. And so what a lot of Mormons and, or Christians and, or people who don't study Christianity don't understand is that when that came out in the, in the times of the, of the New Testament, people like Jesus, it's well understood that Jesus's own followers and expected Jesus to come and return while his followers that were living were still alive.
John Dehlin [00:14:42] In other words, the disciples of Jesus felt, I guess, these concerns or predictions about Jesus coming again began the moment Jesus died. So there's literally never been a generation of Christians for 2000 years that, that didn't have a sizable group within them believe or think or obsess about Jesus's coming while they were alive. So we've got 2,000 years of Christians thinking Jesus is going to come. And that's a really important place to start. So that was true from the time Jesus died with his apostles and followers, right Then all the way through, you know, early Christianity, all the way through medieval times, all the way through the 1800s.
John Dehlin [00:15:28] And including Joseph himself, there's plenty of interpretations of his history that Joseph Smith himself believed that Jesus was going to come while Joseph Smith was still alive. Right. And then of course, we know that Joseph Smith founded Independence, Missouri. He called it Zion. He gathered the Saints in Independence, Missouri with the prophecy that that's where Jesus was going to come again. And, and when all the Saints gathered Independence and it was called Zion the New Jerusalem. And you, you know about that in The Articles of Faith. Independence, Missouri was going to be the new gathering place for Jesus to come while Joseph Smith was alive.
John Dehlin [00:16:09] And then Joseph Smith died. And then, you know, so they were still holding out that, that by 1890 Jesus would still come to the Mormons in Independence, Missouri. And then 1890 came and went and Jesus didn't come. And that was one of the main impetuses, empathy, I don't know the word for like Mormons skiddling. Skiddling polygamy. Because they held up until 1890 thinking that, that Jesus was going to come. And so they had to hold on to polygamy. But then when the 1890s came and went, Jesus didn't rescue the Mormons. They're like, we better give up this polygamy stuff. And I could be wrong about that history, but that's my understanding.
John Dehlin [00:16:47] But still, from, from, from 1830 to the present day, every single Mormon generation, there's been a sizable group that believes that they are the chosen generation, that they are Saturday's warrior. And they're obsessing about the end of times. And, you know, whether it's the John birchers in the 50s and 60s or the Bo grand of the 1980s or the Denver snuffer Julie Rowe, you know, Chad Dabo, Lori Valo, Preppers of, you know, the past 10 or 20 years, preppers have always been with us in one form or another. And of course, the Mormon Church added to this mentality when they started telling Mormons in the early to mid-1900s to keep one year food storage.
John Dehlin [00:17:36] That was always like this way of the Mormon Church leadership telling all the members Jesus could come any moment and there could be catastrophe. So have your one year's food storage for when all the food dries up and people come to get you, have your weapons, have your food.
John Dehlin [00:17:54] And growing up in every Mormon home that I Knew in the 70s and 80s, you needed a one year food storage. And so you'd have rice and, and wheat and, you know, water and canned foods in your basement. And if you go throughout Utah, every home has a big basement. And historically those basements have been used to store up food and supplies and toilet paper and ammo and tents and whatever for the second coming of Jesus. And so in some sense, preppers have always been with us.
John Dehlin [00:18:29] And so, but also the church has had to kind of walk this dance of still believing, you know, not renouncing Joseph Smith's prophecies. So they've never like, said, well, independence, you know, Jesus is not coming again and Independence, Missouri isn't The New Jerusalem, because that's in the articles of faith. But what they have had to do is sort of say, well, Zion is now wherever you live, build up Zion wherever you happen to be. And yes, Jesus will still come again. But we're going to talk less and less and less about the signs of the times because it's not benefiting us as a corporate church to have everybody selling.
John Dehlin [00:19:07] I mean it's not good for tithing frankly for all these members to like not have good paying jobs and to be planning to gather in Missouri when the church kind of knows now Jesus probably isn't coming anytime soon. So the Mormon Church has always had to walk this fine line of like, well, we can't renounce Joseph Smith's prophecy, we can't renounce the New Testament, but we also, it's, you know, we have to sort of build, build Zion wherever people live. And so that's the dance the church has been doing. But one thing's for sure, from the 50s, 60s and 70s to now, we've seen the church talk less and less and less about the Second Coming, less and less and less about signs of the times.
John Dehlin [00:19:48] This was a big deal with Bruce Armor Conkey and Joseph Fielding Smith. You could read Mormon doctrine, you could read doctrines of salvation, there'd be entire chapters on signs of the Times, the Second Coming and, and I was really into that as a Mormon youth. That really turned me on. While the church is slowly, in the 80s, 90s and 2000s, after the bo gr stuff, after you know, all this malicious stuff that's been going on, the church has realized that's just kind of breeding unhealthy members in many way. And so the church in its public discourse and even its curriculum has seemed to be de emphasizing and, and no longer talking about signs of the time, second coming stuff.
John Dehlin [00:20:27] They know that they're breeding apostates on the right or conservative end. The more that they kind of nurture and foster that discourse. And so, but, but they still have not only not been able to squelch kind of Mormon prepper mentality with, with the rise of Julie Rowe and, and Pete and Denver Snuffer and others it in the 2000s, 2000s, and even in the 2000s, you know, we've seen a real upswing in Mormon end times preparism to the point where, you know, we spoke on a Mormon Stories episode just a couple of weeks ago about a Stake High Councilman in Salt Lake county saying that they're losing like five times as many Mormons to conservative fundamentalist, you know, let's just say anti COVID vaccine, anti mask kind of end of times preparism.
John Dehlin [00:21:28] The, the Mormon Church in Utah at least is losing five times as many Mormons to that mentality as they are to kind of LGBT friendly progressive truth claims issues, CES letter kind of apostasy. So this is a real important and significant flash point in modern Mormonism in 2022. And that's what makes, I think, your story so timely. Plus, we've got Rod Meldrum in two days.
Carah Burrell [00:21:59] Yeah, yeah, this episode will probably come out after that though.
John Dehlin [00:22:02] Maybe because we're live. Because we're live streaming Rod Mel Meldrums. Yeah, so this will come out after that, but it's still timely. Anyway, I, I, I apologize if I just sort of like prepper splain to you a little bit, but that's my understanding of the history. I hope non never Mormons appreciate that. Carah, you probably knew all that that I just said I didn't.
Carah Burrell [00:22:23] But I love how you're just like a Wikipedia article just like can never do that. John Dehlin is irreplaceable. That was amazing. Oh, well, you're full on documentary right there.
John Dehlin [00:22:33] I'm sure I got a ton of things wrong and I'm sure I miss a lot of stuff. But anyway, that's the historical context that, that, that is within my understanding. Now let's talk about your parents, your Mormon upbringing, Emma, and let's start with your Mormon story.
Multi-Generational John Bircher and Prepper Roots
Emma [00:22:48] Yeah, before I get into the Mormon story, just to add to that, I think your outline was great of the prepper history. And I definitely come from a generations of preppers. My grandparents were John Birchers, I think, on both sides. And, and like I didn't really know what that meant, but my parents had mentioned it a couple times. They're like, oh yeah, like the John Birchers, but like the church didn't like it, but it wasn't that bad. So that was kind of talked about in my home. And then for people who think that this isn't taught from the pulpit, we are taught in Mormon culture all the time that we are the chosen generation. And I think that's been told to me once every Sunday from the pulpit. So it's a real thing.
John Dehlin [00:23:30] I will, I will ask Carah to add to the show notes our episode with Matthew Harris, historian Matthew Harris, about Ezra Tap Benson. It's one of the most important episodes of the past several years.
Carah Burrell [00:23:42] I totally agree.
John Dehlin [00:23:42] And he talks in depth about Ezra Tap Benson and the his eventual who's my cousin, by the way, and his eventual position as a proponent of John Bircher Mormonism. And it's a really, really important episode. Matt Harris is a legend. We'll include it in the show notes. And if you want to even pause this, go, go learn about what John Bircher Mormonism is. Then you can come back and have that context for what even Emma means by John Bircher. But basically, just to summarize, it's sort of like conspiracy theory Mormonism where you believe that there's a worldwide global conspiracy.
John Dehlin [00:24:24] Oftentimes it's the Jews that are behind it and communists and they want to take over the world. And. And it's a, it's a political thing. So it's kind of an anti communist, global conspiracy, anti Semitic political mindset that very much feeds into conservative Republicanism. And here are Mormon stories. We're apolitical. We're not pro Democrat or pro Republican. We're not pro conservative or pro liberal per se.
John Dehlin [00:24:52] We're just trying to describe. But, but that's. Please check out the Matt Harris episode, everyone. And I apologize, Emma, for talking so much at the beginning. But this historical context is really valuable and important. So check out the show notes for. For that.
Emma [00:25:07] Yeah, that was great.
Family Origins and Orthodox Mormon Beliefs
John Dehlin [00:25:08] Okay, so your grandparents, you're a multi generational John Bircher family.
Emma [00:25:13] Yes. And I didn't even know much about John Berger's still to this day. I just knew that my grandparents were John Birchers and that's not something that's a thing anymore. But it was never looked down upon. My parents never said, oh, that was a bad thing that happened. It was like, oh, they were John Birchers and they were misunderstood. Like people didn't understand but they were trying to do a good thing. So that was kind of the mentality. And then my parents, to just give background of like what the family was kind of like. My parents met and within three days were engaged and had not even gone on a first date.
John Dehlin [00:25:51] Do you want to describe even the region where your parents grew up or would you rather avoid that in terms of like Idaho or Utah or.
Emma [00:25:57] Oh, yeah, that's fine. My mom grew up in Arizona, Gilbert, Arizona, when it was like small farming community. And then my father grew up in this small rural community in Colorado, which was a Mormon settlement. So it's predominantly Mormon there. That's where he grew up.
Emma [00:26:15] My mom's brother married my dad's sister. So it's kind of a double connection. That's how they met. My aunt was sick and my mom was there taking care of their kids. And my dad had just returned from a mission, and so he was going to see his sister for the first time in three years.
Emma [00:26:33] And he said he walked in the door and it was like lightning. And he knew that he was supposed to marry my. My mom, who he had just seen in the doorway. And she described having the same experience of, like, knowing it was such a strong spiritual prompting that they were supposed to get married. So within three days, they were engaged. First date was ring shopping, and then they got married, like, two months later.
John Dehlin [00:26:55] Whoa. First date. Carah was ring shopping.
Carah Burrell [00:26:59] I know. That's what I read in the outline. And I said, I don't want to read a single other thing. I said, tell me the story. I don't want to read it. Because that's. That is the wildest engagement Mormon. I've heard some wild Mormon stories before that top the list, though.
John Dehlin [00:27:12] Wow.
Emma [00:27:13] Yeah. But it was always described to us as, like, a level of spirituality that this isn't something that other people experience, but almost because we were so spiritual or they were so spiritual that that's how they met, and that's their great story. But they didn't know each other. Didn't know anything about each other, really.
John Dehlin [00:27:33] And do you know how many. You may have already said this, but how many months before they got married?
Emma [00:27:37] I believe it was two to three months. My mom had a brother that was getting married, and so her parents were like, well, if you're getting married, it's going to be at the same time as them. So they had a double wedding because it was just so unplanned that they were getting married. So it was really fast.
John Dehlin [00:27:54] That's intense. Well, I'm dying to hear. Do you know about what year they were married?
Emma [00:28:01] I could maybe do some math. I'm 24 tomorrow. My birthday's tomorrow. My mom had me when she was 41, so that's 60.
John Dehlin [00:28:11] What year were you five?
Emma [00:28:13] 1998.
John Dehlin [00:28:14] Okay.
Emma [00:28:16] And then my oldest sister is 16, so it was probably. I don't even know. My parents are in their 60s. Late 60s.
John Dehlin [00:28:25] Okay.
Emma [00:28:26] And my mom was 18 when they got married.
John Dehlin [00:28:28] 18.
Emma [00:28:29] 18.
John Dehlin [00:28:29] Wow. Okay. So where did they. Do you know where they met? They met at. In.
Emma [00:28:34] At my uncle's house in. In Idaho. It was in Idaho. In Idaho.
Carah Burrell [00:28:38] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:28:39] All right. That's intense. So. So very orthodox Mormon parents.
Emma [00:28:44] Very orthodox. And that was very much like we were taught that you did things based off of the spirit, and when you received a prompting, you had to do it. And it was like that Story was told over and over again of, this is how we met. And so this is the kind of family are. We are. Like, we follow spiritual promptings.
John Dehlin [00:29:02] Yeah.
Emma [00:29:03] So that was kind of the origin. I'm the youngest of eight kids, and. Yeah, eight kids. Eight kids.
John Dehlin [00:29:09] Again, very Mormon, very orthodox.
Emma [00:29:12] They definitely believe that the more kids you have, the more righteous you are. I think an uncle joked that your mansion in heaven is dictated by how many righteous posterity you have. Which, to be fair, I don't know if this is, like, if you told them that, they'd be like, oh, well, we don't actually believe that, but it's something that's joked about. My oldest sister has 11 kids. I think in total, I have 36 nieces and nephews. That's definitely carried on lots of people in my family. But, yeah, we grew up in Colorado. I'm trying to remember, did you.
John Dehlin [00:29:50] Was Saturday's Warrior, the musical, something your family listened to growing up at all?
Emma [00:29:55] It was. My parents said that it touched them because they felt like that was their story and there was a lot of kids. And so they always said that I was like, the little girl waiting in heaven, like, telling their siblings to, like, be righteous. I'm trying to come. They said that, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:10] Saturday's Warrior is a musical that came out in the 70s by Lex Diazevedo, and basically it just taught that you should have. That the birth control is bad and that you should have as many kids as possible because there are all these spirits up in heaven waiting to inhabit bodies. And if you don't have lots of kids, those spirits are going to go to inferior homes or not come down at all. And. And it's also Saturday's Warrior itself. The term represents the fact that, like, this is the evening of, you know, the day before Jesus is coming again. So Saturday's Warrior itself is a millennial reference, and I loved it growing up. It's great, great tunes.
Emma [00:30:51] So, yeah, we watched that a lot growing up.
John Dehlin [00:30:53] Yeah.
Emma [00:30:54] But, yeah, that was just kind of the environment at home. My dad was definitely a scriptorian. Like, he was my source. If you had any reference from church history, if you're like, hey, where's this thing found? Like, did Joseph Smith say this thing? He could be like, oh, yeah, it was in Church history, volume whatever. Like, this is where you find it. He definitely had his own interpretation of the Book of Revelations that you talked about in the beginning, where he would just go through and be like, okay, this is what this means, and this is what that means.
John Dehlin [00:31:23] Can you Describe some of those. Do you even remember some of those?
Emma [00:31:27] Yeah, I think it's in Revelations, chapter 12. It talks about a woman and a child and the chat. The woman is supposed to be the church and she's like going into the wilderness to protect them for three and a half years. So we were taught that before the second Coming there would be three and a half years where Satan would reign, like the beasts would be unleashed.
Emma [00:31:53] And that was what we were preparing for, like you prepare for the three and a half years of awfulness, so that when Christ comes and reigns for a thousand years, you can be counted among the righteous. There's also a part in Revelations that talks about water like a great flood.
Emma [00:32:13] And we'll talk about John Pontius later. But in his book there is a great flood in Salt Lake. And so my father connected that as, okay, John Pontius is correct, there's going to be a great flood. The beast with ten heads he interpreted as different nations in the world.
Emma [00:32:35] And I can't even remember. I think the line's supposed to be the uk, There's a leopard, which is Israel. So they all represented different things. He had a whole list of scriptures and he would invite people over and teach them about Revelations and what it meant. And I wish I kept it because I can't even remember everything, but he was definitely what you would call a scriptorian.
John Dehlin [00:32:57] So one of the things we were obsessed about growing up in the 80s was the 666, the number of the beast. Was there an interpretation of that?
Emma [00:33:05] Yeah. When Social Security numbers came out, my parents were afraid because they're like, this is the number of the beast having
John Dehlin [00:33:12] a Social Security number.
Emma [00:33:12] Having a Social Security number. And now they're really afraid that vaccines are like, if you get a vaccine, especially the COVID 19 vaccine, they were afraid that like it was gonna chip you and then that was gonna be the mark of the beast and you wouldn't be able to buy, trade or sell without that. So they believe that the mark of the beast without that you can't buy groceries, you can't buy anything, you can't sell anything. And so you need to be self sufficient so that when that happens, you don't have to sell out your beliefs to stay alive.
John Dehlin [00:33:47] Is there an explanation of how? I don't want to get into this in depth, but I'm just trying to understand the connection between either having a Social Security number or in the case of like vaccines or whatever, how does that impact someone's righteousness or worthiness in the eyes of Christ or God to make it so it would negatively impact them in. In God's eyes. Did there was that ever explained?
Emma [00:34:15] It was explained. Not that it would impact you now, but when in the reign of the beast, we were taught that if you had the mark of the beast, you would have to denounce Christ and denounce your faith. And so in that moment you would ultimately betray Christ and betray God. So we were taught that the mark of the beast was like the end all. Like you would rather die than have the mark of the beast.
John Dehlin [00:34:43] So basically a real suspicion of the federal government, which I think is a holdover from Mormons being persecuted by the federal government because of polygamy. It seems like an anti federal government disposition is. Is very much married to kind of pepper mentality.
Emma [00:35:01] Yes. Like the government will ultimately fail and sort of be out to get us. Like very corrupt is the mentality that people in the government are just like plotting to eventually end the world.
John Dehlin [00:35:18] And then there are prophecies like the two prophets being killed in the streets of Jerusalem. Did you remember that?
Emma [00:35:23] Yep. We were taught about that prophecy and how we would know that if two prophets were like, or two apostles were going to Jerusalem, that we would know it was coming. The blood, the moon turning to blood and tears. We talked about that one a lot.
John Dehlin [00:35:37] What is that about?
Emma [00:35:39] There's a lot of different interpretations. So it's like we kind of talked about different ones, but mostly like hearts, Men's shall fill them is kind of the one that was coupled with that.
John Dehlin [00:35:50] Men's hearts.
Emma [00:35:52] Men's hearts shall fail them. So there wasn't really a clear interpretation, but it was mostly like these are things to watch for. Like we would know if it happened, that it was happening.
John Dehlin [00:36:02] And then Carah, you've joked about this, like wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes. I'm just wondering, Emma, if, if like. You know, Kerry, you mentioned in a recent episode just how ubiquitous wars and natural. Natural calamities are.
Carah Burrell [00:36:22] Yeah, it's like if I needed to make a sound like a prophet, I would just do the most ubiquitous thing ever that people will fight and that will. Prophecy will come to pass for sure.
John Dehlin [00:36:31] And there'll be earthquakes or floods or whatever things.
Carah Burrell [00:36:34] Natural calamities will happen. And high demand religions often have a way of. Yeah. Like usurping all of the things that are bad in the world and finding a way to put it through the lens of their religion. So yeah, you must have had talks about. Yeah. Wars and calamities and things growing up and what they Meant, yeah, I haven't
Emma [00:36:53] talked to my family recently, but I'm sure that what's happening in Ukraine right now is being interpreted as it's close. Like, it's coming because this is happening in Ukraine. Like, I'm almost positive, even though I haven't talked to them, because that's what happened always. Like anytime something bad happened, every election was a discussion of, oh, if a certain person is elected, the world's gonna end. Every single election. Like back when Obama was elected, they were afraid. When the whole Trump thing happened, they were afraid. And so it's just a continual. Like, anytime anything happens, it's like, okay, this is it. Like, the world is ending soon.
John Dehlin [00:37:33] Yeah. And going back to the wars and the natural calamities, the floods and the earthquakes. Every year those things happen. With there's hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, even, you know, even in Utah. Sometimes it seems like for a high demand religion, the purpose that serves is to bond the loyalty and the devotion of the members to the church. Because I imagine if you're afraid that Jesus is coming and you want to be righteous, then when an earthquake or a flood happens in your mind, that's translated into got to be extra righteous, got to pay my tithing, got to be obedient to the church. Is that true or not? Or was there a derivative of that?
Emma [00:38:12] Yeah, absolutely. I think that it was. When those things happened, it was almost like double down for efforts. I mean, growing up, like, paying tithing was always something that happened. And we were very, like, we never missed a Sunday, very faithful. But whenever those things happened, it was almost like double down in preparation for physical.
Emma [00:38:34] Because we were always taught that we were like already doing spiritual preparation, but we needed to add the physical preparation, otherwise we wouldn't be as righteous as everyone else. It was interpreted that, you know, even the elect shall fall. That's a scripture somewhere that in the last days, even members of the church would fall to Satan or to sin or temptation. And so it was taught to us that, yes, we need to be spiritually prepared, but physical preparation is how we get ahead of the game and beat that temptation and so that we don't fall in the last days.
John Dehlin [00:39:16] And so every time someone leaves the church, it's like a prophecy is being fulfilled. Better be more righteous.
Emma [00:39:21] Right.
John Dehlin [00:39:23] Do you remember a prophecy about the One mighty and strong? Is that something that rings a bell to you at all?
Emma [00:39:28] It doesn't. I'm sure other siblings would remember, but I don't remember that one.
John Dehlin [00:39:32] Particularly for those who just are geeking out on this, there's a, some sort of doctrine of covenants, prophecy, like there's going to be a restoration of the gospel, the Mormon Church, but then like the church is going to struggle and then there'll be a new one, mighty and strong, that emerges to kind of help get the church right. But before Jesus comes again, kind of like someone after Joseph Smith. And, and, and so every generation's got these sort of prepper Mormons where like some man thinks he's either going to be one of the prophets killed in the streets of Jerusalem or he's going to be the one mighty and strong, like Denver snuffer, like Avraham Gileadi, or others who see themselves as kind of the person that helps get the church right to usher in Jesus's second coming. So you, you don't remember that part? Okay.
Emma [00:40:24] No, I. Okay, hadn't heard that one.
Daily Life in a Mormon Prepper Household
John Dehlin [00:40:27] So how did this kind of Mormon fundamentalist prepper mentality play out in your family life? Like, was it a happy, you know, structured family? Was it stressed and strict and mean, something in between? Describe what, what it was like growing up as a child in a home where these were the beliefs and practices.
Emma [00:40:50] Yeah, I think it's definitely a mixture. You know, there's never like one side like, oh, it was all terrible. But I would say stressed was kind of the overall feeling.
John Dehlin [00:41:05] Stressed?
Emma [00:41:05] Yeah, stressed was kind of the overall feeling. My father was an entrepreneur and owned several businesses, and so he was gone a lot to taking care of the businesses. But when he was home, like Saturdays were work days. You know, Saturdays we were out building barns, built fixing fences, learning how to butcher animals. Like, Saturdays were our prep days. Summers were kind of like double down efforts.
John Dehlin [00:41:33] Talk about why butchering animals often comes along with this type of mentality. And what other types of, I don't want to say chores, but like home activities came along with the Mormon prepper mentality?
Emma [00:41:47] Yeah, we grew up in a farming community, so those things were more normal than if you were in like downtown Salt Lake. So before we kind of really doubled down on our efforts, we already lived on like a hobby farm and had animals. But we, around 2009 is when we had like a big family meeting and we're like, okay, what are we gonna do to prepare?
John Dehlin [00:42:09] And tell us what it is about 2008. I already know the answer to this, but what happened in 2008 that caused that family meeting in 2009?
Emma [00:42:18] Yeah, 2008. Well, my father's in the title insurance business and so the housing market crashed and so we were already sort of in financial trouble and then Obama was elected and it was this fear of, yep, this really is the end.
Emma [00:42:34] And so all of my siblings got together, I think about four of them were. Three or four of them were already married. So they came with their spouses and their kids. And we all sat around the couch and like just kind of threw out ideas of like, okay, like, what are we gonna do? I remember one sister being like, oh, well, we can like clean out the chicken coop and we're gonna get a milk cow because we didn't have one at the time and we're gonna learn how to butcher animals. And so that was kind of the start of like the craze during my time as a kid in the home where we really got into prepping.
Emma [00:43:06] So we have this room in our garage that's. We call it the meat cutting room. My dad purchased this huge meat saw. And then we have like ground beef things so you can ground the beef. And it was like a full family production. It would take an entire day.
Emma [00:43:25] We'd butcher the cow and hang it and then have to hang for a week. And then everyone would come and it was just like a production line where we'd sit and I was always in charge of ground beef because it was the easiest. You just like sit there and spin it. But then at the end we would have like a freezer full of meat. And that was important because in the last days proposedly that we would need food and if we didn't know how to butcher our own animals, then no one would be there to give us the food because it would all be like everyone for themselves.
John Dehlin [00:43:58] I want to talk about that, but just really briefly. You mentioned Obama. There could be either explicit or unspoken racial undertones or overtones to a real concern about Obama's election. Is there anything you can say about opinions about race or people of color or Obama?
Carah Burrell [00:44:21] Was it like a secret Muslim that was floating around back in those days? Remember that?
John Dehlin [00:44:25] Uh huh. Or yeah, the birther stuff. Yeah.
Carah Burrell [00:44:28] Born in America. What Secret communism. I'm just, I'm just thinking back to my childhood.
John Dehlin [00:44:34] Yeah. What can you say about like what was so disturbing about Obama's election to your family said or what? What do you think was unsaid? But there.
Emma [00:44:47] Yeah, part of the things that were said. I remember health care, the fact that he wanted to make it more socialized. My parents were afraid of us like turning into a communist country. They thought there was like a theory that Obama wasn't actually an American citizen, which I think my father especially actually believed that it was like he was planted by some group to infiltrate the government and they thought that he was going to put out military law so that he would get to be re elected or stay in the presidency for longer than his set out terms.
John Dehlin [00:45:28] Like take. Take away the guns.
Emma [00:45:30] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:45:30] And implement martial law.
Emma [00:45:32] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:45:32] Which would lead Mormon preppers to want to buy as many guns as possible, potentially in anticipation of. Of gun laws being changed. To take away all the guns to then have martial law. Is that right?
Emma [00:45:46] Absolutely. There was definitely some purchases of guns and I don't want to go into like tons of detail with that, but there were like, yeah, my dad went out and was like, we need to find guns. He was afraid that they were going to go and find any registered gun and take them away. And so we had some guns that were older that weren't registered. So he like put those away and then tried to find people that would sell guns unregistered. I don't even know how many, but there is a stockpile of guns because he was afraid that martial law was coming and we were going to be defenseless.
John Dehlin [00:46:22] And were there racial undertones that you ever observed or not or.
Emma [00:46:30] There were racial undertones and it's hard to say, like what came from, like the church and what was just personal beliefs, but I don't remember anything specifically said about Obama that was, I think it was like underlying. But from my memory, nothing stands out particularly.
John Dehlin [00:46:50] So not overt racism per se.
Emma [00:46:52] No.
John Dehlin [00:46:53] That you remember.
Emma [00:46:55] At other times it came up in my life, but not at that moment.
John Dehlin [00:46:58] Okay. And then going back to kind of the. The family butcher line. Like on the one hand, it's kind of become almost a progressive fad to grow local, to have like, humane treatment of animals, to grow your own gardens. Like, that's a. A mentality that probably spans both more liberal and more conservative traditions. So in the one sense, it almost feels romantic and kind of like back to our roots and back to our.
John Dehlin [00:47:30] Who we are as humans and treat your animals civilly and not the mass farming and. And butcher them. But then you know what you're killing and then you respect the animal. Almost like Native Americans had a reverence towards the animals that they killed. So on the one hand, it feels almost romantic, almost like a little House in the Prairie family cohesion to envision a family like this. Like, I can think of different times in my life where I'm like, man, I want to live like that back at a farm and kill our own animals and Grow our own food. And so there's. There's a romantic idealist notion to that.
John Dehlin [00:48:06] And then there can also be kind of a dark. Like, you're literally. You got a bone saw and you're like slaughtering and chopping up the animals and grinding the meat yourself. I'm torn about. I'm just wondering what that was actually like in that spectrum of idealist romanticism versus, like, really gritty and. And kind of odd and extreme. How would you describe it?
Emma [00:48:29] I think it was definitely both. Like, at the time, I remember that, like, those are memories that stick out in my head. And they were some of the few times that we all came together and it was like set out days. Like, it was a planned day. Like, okay, this is the day that we're all butchering the animals, so you're all gonna come and help.
Emma [00:48:48] But there was. I was pretty young at the time. I would say I was from the ages of like 10 to 14 is when we were in the midst of butchering our own animals. And I did not, like, I didn't like to be there when the animal was actually killed. I would go inside and hide.
Emma [00:49:08] So it was kind of both for me. Like, I enjoyed being with my family, and it did feel like Little House on the Prairie, but there was the side of, like, this is. I. I don't really like this, especially at a young age. Pigs were particularly difficult for me because they squeal and they sound almost like children.
Emma [00:49:27] So when we had butcher pigs, I hated that. Also chickens, because they just are tiny and you have to like, hold them while you. I don't know if that's a little explicit, but chop off their head. So it was kind of both of, like, it felt romantic, like Little House on the Prairie and like, we were doing something that other people didn't do. But then in the one hand, it was like I would cry sometimes when the animals were killed.
Carah Burrell [00:49:56] Are you glad that you have that skill or at least that you know that you could potentially use it if you had to?
Emma [00:50:03] I would say if I was on my own, I could probably figure it out. But most of it was dictated by my dad. Like, he would be like, okay, this is what you're gonna do with this. So like, now I think it adds to, like, I can get my hands dirty.
Carah Burrell [00:50:19] Sure.
Emma [00:50:19] So it built character. But if I could go back, I could maybe deal without it.
Carah Burrell [00:50:24] Yeah, deal without it. Okay.
John Dehlin [00:50:27] Yeah. And all of this is in the name of being self reliant and self sufficient. Is that right?
Emma [00:50:32] Yeah, absolutely. Because Part of it goes back to the mark of the beast, where if you didn't. If you didn't have the mark of the beast, then you wouldn't be able to go to a butcher and have them butcher your animal. And so we needed to learn how to do that so that we could kind of hide out and avoid getting the mark of the beast and avoid being a part of the system. We got a milk cow. And so early in the mornings, my brother was designated as the person that had to do that. He'd wake up at five before school and milk the cow, and then at the end of the night, he'd do it again.
Emma [00:51:03] We had chickens. I was in charge of taking care of them and like giving them water and food and taking those for a while. We had a pig that would have babies, and then we would butcher the babies and get her pregnant again and repeat the process.
John Dehlin [00:51:19] Why would you butcher the pig babies? The baby pigs?
Emma [00:51:23] Well, they would get older, but it was like she was the pig maker in layman terms and then continue to have babies. We had our own little fields where we would farm and then get feed for the animals. Other things we did at this point, the growing dome, we built. We had this hippie guy come from this neighboring town in Colorado, and he came and built this almost not glass, but like a plexi. I've seen them around. Some people have them. But it was like we wanted to learn how to garden ourselves. So we built that at home. We got this huge. We called it the army tent. I think it was a legitimate army tent. And we just filled it with supplies. I think there was like extra toilets in there. Just basically anything that we would need.
Carah Burrell [00:52:22] We got this storage unit, almost like all your supplies.
Emma [00:52:25] And then we had a huge cargo trailer that we called the bomb shelter. Actually wasn't a bomb shelter. It wouldn't keep you safe. But we kept all of our food storage in there. I remember days where we would just carry huge, like 50 pound bags of grain and just like pile them in there. We would package five gallon containers of corn. Just really stockpiling as much food as we could into like, these. We had two of them, two cargo containers, and that's what we did for, I think two summers was like, basically all of our free time we would spend outside preparing. We built a barn for the animals. That's just what we did in our free time.
John Dehlin [00:53:09] What was the purpose of the growing dome? Why build a growing dome? What was it and what was its purpose?
Emma [00:53:15] Yeah, the growing dome. I don't exactly know how it works because since then it has gone to almost complete waste. But we needed a place to grow our own food. Like, the idea was to be completely self sufficient. You wouldn't need to go anywhere else to get your basic needs met.
Emma [00:53:33] So it had like different beds on the inside. It was like a geometrical shape and it would filter in the sunlight. So the idea was in Colorado, not many things grow. Like, the best things that grew were potatoes and corn, and that was about it. But the growing dome would create an environment where you could hopefully grow things like banana trees.
Emma [00:53:52] We had it set up to where there was these two water tanks and we were going to put fish in it so that we could kill the fish and have fish, but they would also fertilize the water that would fertilize the soil for the plants.
Emma [00:54:08] And gardening was never our thing. And so that actually never happened. Like, we built it, we put all. I didn't put any money into it, but my parents put money into it and then it just kind of fell apart. But that was the purpose.
John Dehlin [00:54:24] So like a dome shaped greenhouse to. To be able to build things that the Colorado climate wouldn't support, like tomatoes or bananas or those sorts of things. But it never. It never paid off.
Emma [00:54:39] It never paid off, huh? Most. Most of it didn't pay off.
Schooling, Self-Sufficiency, and Family Strictness
Carah Burrell [00:54:43] And what did you do about schooling? Like, you mentioned that your brother would milk cows before school. I'm assuming you guys are like homeschooled or.
Emma [00:54:51] We weren't homeschooled, but all of my nieces and nephews actually are homeschooled. A few of them have moved to public school, but we would go to school and then we'd come home. And it was, once you got home, go do the chores, take care of the animals. Summertime. Most kids looked forward to summer. I hated summer because summer meant work, summer meant being outside. But school was like a break where it's like, okay, I get to go to school now and be away from the work.
Carah Burrell [00:55:21] Wow. Yeah,
John Dehlin [00:55:24] yeah. It's worth mentioning, and this is something that came up at Tara Westover's book Educated, which we should also add to the show notes. We've got two interviews with her. But homeschooling is a very common feature of Mormon prepper lifestyle because it's. It's generally perceived that the liberal. I'm saying that in quotes, kind of the liberal education is toxic to a young mind. And so you've got to be able to teach constitutional principles and love of country and American exceptionalism and Patriotism and Book of Mormon centered or gospel centered education so that your young minds could be pure and righteous and not tainted with communism or secularism or worldly sin. Those are my words. Tell me if that's, you know.
Emma [00:56:14] Yeah, we were taught. I mean, it was presented as end time, you know, like, it was early enough in the times that I could go to school, but we were told that eventually it would be too late and that we would need to homeschool our kids. So all of my siblings, they all homeschool, and they're all like, I think they use the good, the great and the beautiful is like this curriculum, and they talk about the Constitution all the time. I know that they have, like, Book of Mormon classes, so that's definitely like, Homeschooling is a big part of all of my siblings homeschool, but I was never homeschooled, which I appreciate.
John Dehlin [00:56:58] You're glad you glad you're glad you weren't homeschooled?
Emma [00:57:00] Yes, I'm glad.
John Dehlin [00:57:01] Do you have a sense for why your siblings home, your. Your cousins or aunts and uncles homeschooled, but your parents chose not to. Do you know why?
Emma [00:57:10] So my aunts and uncles actually don't homeschool. It's my siblings now that are doing the home school.
John Dehlin [00:57:15] Oh, sorry. Okay.
Emma [00:57:16] Okay. Yeah, no, that's fine. We definitely were kind of the. Between, like, aunts and uncles. I have an uncle that's like, in a stake presidency, and we're kind of seen as like the weird family a little bit on my dad's side, where we're the ones that, like, farm and homeschool and everyone else seems to be, in quotes, more normal. So I don't really know why my family in particular was different than my aunts and uncle's families.
John Dehlin [00:57:47] Okay, so your family is actually viewed as more hardcore conservatively than a lot of the other families.
Emma [00:57:53] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:57:55] And did you. Do you think your family kind of conceptualized that as extra righteousness? Like, with having many children, like, homeschooling is like an extra feature or sign of righteousness.
Carah Burrell [00:58:09] Yeah.
Emma [00:58:09] It was actually kind of ironic because this particular uncle, he was our neighbor that was in the stake presidency. And I remember my dad saying things like, oh, he has his head in the sand. Like, he doesn't want to look at what's happening in the world, but, like, he's ignoring it. And so it was just kind of this idea that we were more righteous because we were looking at it. But it was ironic because this other family seemed to have higher callings. In the church that would be deemed more righteous of them to have those callings. But it was this mentality of like, oh, well, we do this and so we're more righteous because we're prepared.
John Dehlin [00:58:47] Yeah. How about the gospel? The Mormon doctrine and teachings and gospel, you know, in terms of things like family prayer, family scripture study, family home evening. How did all of that kind of manifest? What were. What. What did being Mormon mean, like in your home? In addition to all the kind of prepper ends of time stuff? What about just gospel centered living? What. What did that look like in your home?
Emma [00:59:17] Yeah, it was kind of extremely fundamental. Tithing was really important. Even as young kids, we would pay
John Dehlin [00:59:26] tithing on pennies kind of thing.
Emma [00:59:29] Pennies, dimes. We also, from a young age, started working. My dad owned a business, so when I was like 10, we would clean the office and then get paid. So. So we were always taught, pay your tithing. We never missed a Sunday. There was like occasional Sundays where if you were sick, you got to stay home. But we would go every week.
Emma [00:59:50] As far as, like, law of chastity, I would say that was a little bit more extreme in my family. We weren't allowed to paint our nails. We weren't allowed to get our ears pierced, which kind of goes into, like the modesty culture of, you know, skirts to your knee, no sleeveless tops.
Emma [01:00:07] It was kind of a weird line of like, if I wore something that was like white and lacy, I would get in trouble because that was like, somehow seductive. It was a little intense in, like, the law of chastity form.
Emma [01:00:22] We had the mentality that you weren't supposed to kiss someone until you were married, which was kind of like bled a little bit. Because I did have some siblings that like, kissed their boyfriend and girlfriend before they got married. But that was like the goal that we were striving for is it's like you don't kiss the person until you're engaged or until you're married. Family scripture.
John Dehlin [01:00:46] Real quick for the never Mormons that don't understand what did earrings or clothing, those rules, what do they have? You talk about law of chastity, which is like sexual purity in a Mormon context. And then you're talking about, like, no earrings or like certain types of clothing. Can you fill in the dots for never Mormons to understand what that connection is?
Emma [01:01:09] Yeah, absolutely. It's the idea that the way you present yourself plays a part into, like, what happens sexually. So if you paint your nails or if you wear pierced earrings, then you are being in some Way promiscuous. And so that could lead into unwanted sexual relations. Like, it was your job to present yourself chastely, and that's the first step to avoid sexual sin.
John Dehlin [01:01:39] What about makeup?
Emma [01:01:41] Makeup? We were allowed to wear makeup till we were, like, in high school, but then it was very. And there wasn't, like, said rules of, like, wear this, don't wear this. But if you came out wearing a lot of makeup, a lot of times we get in trouble and be like, hey, you need to go back and, like, take that off and wear it different. Like, if I was wearing this eyeliner right now, right now, this eyeliner right now, I would probably get in trouble and be like, hey, go take that off.
John Dehlin [01:02:10] So that's too much, the makeup you're wearing right now?
Emma [01:02:12] Yeah, the makeup I'm wearing right now would be too much.
John Dehlin [01:02:16] Okay.
Emma [01:02:18] Even like, yeah, for some reason, nail polish was a huge source of contention. If we ever had our nails painted, it would be like, go take that off right now. And like my sisters, we weren't allowed to date until we were 16, and even then, no serious boyfriends till we were 18. Which was kind of ironic because I had one sister that got married two weeks before her 18th birthday in the temple, and then I had another sister get married right out of high school. So it was also very much taught that, like, our, like, as a female, my job was to get married, have kids, stay home, take care of them,
John Dehlin [01:03:00] be a homemaker, but no dating or sexual activity, basically, until you're ready to get married and then get married as young as possible, as immediate as possible.
Emma [01:03:11] Yeah, absolutely. Most of my siblings got married very young. I'm 24, and, like, they've been asking me for years when I was going to get married. Like, when I was 19, it was like, hey, where's your husband? But in, like, normal standards around the world, that's unheard of.
John Dehlin [01:03:34] Really quickly. Care, I want to check in with you as you're hearing kind of Emma describe her upbringing. I know that you grew up in Provo, not in some rural area per se. Are you having any thoughts or feelings either about your experience that you want to share or, you know, other people that you knew within Mormonism or any. Any feelings coming up for you at all?
Carah Burrell [01:03:54] Oh, just that old idea that you're an old maid at 19 if you're not married yet and how you've got your whole life ahead of you. And it's a strange culture that you're kind of. As a woman, I haven't quite grappled. With that until I was 33, which I am right now. How strange that is that from the moment you're kind of a young girl in the church, your entire sights are set at this ceiling of, like, you. Your goal is to be married and with kids, and you find that person when your brain's not even developed yet, when you haven't even traveled the world, you haven't even met very many people, you can, like, get married to somebody within, like, your same geographic location.
Carah Burrell [01:04:30] It's just such a strange, strange culture that doesn't set people up for success. A lot of people are still happy within it, and I don't knock that. But, like, sometimes you go many years and realize you're like, wow, I made a lot of decisions very, very young. My brain wasn't developed yet. But that is whether it's, you know, more extreme kind of prepper culture or just like, normal provoculture. I was the 12th person in my high school. Like, I got married a year after I graduated, and I think I was, like, the 12th girl to get married. So I was, like, still feeling kind of behind.
Carah Burrell [01:04:58] So it's very normal in Mormon culture just to settle down immediately or else you feel like an old maid. Yeah. So definitely feel similar and, and care.
John Dehlin [01:05:09] This isn't. This interview isn't about you, but I'll
Carah Burrell [01:05:12] make it about me. I'll make it all about me.
John Dehlin [01:05:14] I mean, that. I, I. Let's just say this. I knew Mormon families growing up in Katy, Texas, that they lived in the suburbs, but there were remnants of the type of home life you're describing in the suburbs. So whether it was having your garden, like Mormons growing up always had their garden in their backyard, even if they were living in the suburbs, whether it was large families, whether it was food storage or just hyper orthodoxy when it came to modesty, culture, dress, sexual purity, care. I'm wondering whether in your Provo experience, whether either with your family or families, you knew there were remnants of this type of lifestyle in Provo.
Carah Burrell [01:05:59] Yeah, there's. There's a wide spectrum in Provo, you'll find. And when people say Utah county and they think that it's one thing. Yeah. You guys have to remember the law of large numbers. You get enough Mormons together, you'll get a whole wide spectrum of a whole heck of a lot of stuff going on. So, yeah, there's definitely people all over the spectrum like that.
John Dehlin [01:06:16] But did you know families that had some of this stuff?
Carah Burrell [01:06:20] Yeah, yeah, definitely. There was actually a family. Oh, man, they're going to know I'm talking about them. But there was a family in my ward that was very extreme and they took their daughter that was my age out of school and starting in seventh grade to teach, to homeschool her so that she could prepare to be a wife and mom. And that did not sit well with all of my friend group and all of us were wigging out. So her mom was very open that like, well, my daughter's got all the education she needs. She's 12 years old. Took her out of school and then homeschooled her so that she could basically be like a live in child nanny for the rest of the kids because she was the oldest. So that was one of the more extreme families I grew up with that was just on my block. But yeah.
John Dehlin [01:06:58] In suburban Provo.
Carah Burrell [01:06:59] In suburban, in north Provo.
John Dehlin [01:07:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like there are remnants of this kind of lifestyle or mentality throughout Mormonism in every major state in the U. S and probably internationally too.
Emma [01:07:14] Yeah. And I think we kind of got away with it because, you know, we were in farming community and this was sort of the normal. But if we had been doing this kind of thing like in Salt Lake, we would have been odd, odd ones. But there are people that do this everywhere.
Growing Up in a Large Family
John Dehlin [01:07:35] What was it like growing up in a large family with lots of siblings and without not wanting to ever throw your parents under the bus, but like what was it like for them to parent so many kids and to take on so many home chores and, or homeschooling? I, I, you know, Margi and I have struggled with four kids without homeschooling. I'm trying to imagine eight kids while killing the chickens and the pigs and the cows and growing your own food and building a, a food dome or whatever you called it, and homeschooling, like I just can't even. And being a super orthodox faithful Mormon. What was that like on your parents to be parents and, and be married in this very intense upbringing?
Emma [01:08:22] Yeah, I think it was extremely stressful for them. Yeah. Not to throw them under the bus, but fighting was a really common thing in my home around like if we were out working outside, like fights would happen because of that. But because there was so many of us, I think it helped with all the chores at the time. I loved it. I loved having so many people around, you know, your friends or your siblings. There was never more than seven of us at the house from when I can remember. My oldest sister got married when I was one and she had her oldest child when I was Two. So it was like the family just kept going. And so my parents had kids to help parent their youngest kids.
John Dehlin [01:09:11] So you had a niece or nephew that was like a. Like a sibling to you, basically, yeah, Multiple.
Emma [01:09:17] My oldest sisters, I'd say her oldest, four kids are more like siblings to me. My oldest niece is married, actually, and starting her own family, so we are kind of.
John Dehlin [01:09:27] You're not married yet with kids?
Emma [01:09:28] No, I'm not married yet. Yeah. So it was really interesting because I would spend a lot of time at my oldest sister's house with her daughter. So my oldest sister was kind of like my second mom. To support our family, my dad did open a lot of businesses. They did, like, a trash company for a while. During my time, it was title insurance.
Emma [01:09:49] And so from 2 years old, I think, is when he started that he was gone most of the time. When I was in middle school, he would leave Mondays. He bought a business three hours away from where we were at. He would leave Mondays, stay there, and come back on Fridays. So for my middle school years, it almost felt like I was being raised by a single mom because she would raise us. And that was also during the midst of, like, our intense prepping. So it was like I was getting raised by a single mom. But then on the weekends, I would have, like, a really intense dad come home and be like, all right, let's build a barn.
Emma [01:10:24] Let's kill a cow. So it was almost like a dual life. But I think it did cause a lot of stress on their marriage and in our family just because, you know, support eight kids, but also have all these other things going on. So growing up, it did have a feeling of, like, stress kind of permeated
John Dehlin [01:10:47] our house, and there was a lot of family conflict. Although maybe that's true about all families.
Emma [01:10:52] Yeah, I think everyone has a lot of conflict, but I. It was definitely spurred on by a lot of the projects that we were working on. Saturdays were hard because, I mean, I knew we would be outside working, and no kid wants to be outside working, but also, like, we would get yelled at sometimes.
Emma [01:11:16] And my dad did a lot of good things. Right. But he did have a temper. And I just remember one time he'd be like, hey, go grab me this kind of wrench. And I was like, I don't even know what that looks like. And he's like, you're my kid, and you don't know what that wrench looks like. And it's like, you never showed me. So that was kind of the feeling that happened. Whereas we Were trying to get all these things done, but you have your helpers, which are 10, 12, 14 year olds, trying to help you become completely self sufficient. And of course we're not going to know how to build a fence. You know, we're just kids.
John Dehlin [01:11:51] What about tv, movies, Internet, cell phones, Internet devices? What was your family culture around those things?
Emma [01:12:01] Yeah, tv, the news was always playing.
John Dehlin [01:12:06] Any particular channel?
Emma [01:12:08] Fox News. I'm sure most of you could guess Fox News was playing. We would sometimes watch Disney Channel, but if my parents were home, we would turn it off. It was like a Disney was. Yeah, Disney was seen as like, whoa. I don't know. Like these people were very worldly was how it was portrayed. Like fashion was really important to them. You know, they were just kind of caught up in their little school drama. It was very worldly. And so if my parents were home, we would turn it off sometimes if my mom was home, she'd let it slide. But if my dad was home, it was like, oh, make sure you turn the channel back to the news so he doesn't know that you were watching Disney Channel.
John Dehlin [01:12:51] That is a whole nother level of intensity where you're hiding. When I was growing up, you hit HBO from your parents. That's pretty intense. You're hiding Disney from your parents.
Emma [01:13:02] Yeah, especially like the Disney shows. They were fine with Disney movies, but like Wizards of Waverly Place, Phil from the future. I love those shows. But those were like, no, we don't watch those shows. Cell phones. I did not get my first cell phone till I was 16. And that was only because we had moved. So all of my siblings, I don't think any of them had a cell phone growing up. But when we moved, I was walking home from school instead of taking a bus. So they gave me a phone so that I could call in case I was in trouble.
John Dehlin [01:13:35] What about Internet access?
Emma [01:13:37] We had one computer. It was right in the middle, in between our living room and our kitchen. Very rare that we would have access to the computer. But as I got older, like the community in our family kind of changed because all of my siblings started getting married and leaving home.
Emma [01:13:56] So it kind of changed over the years because then when it was just me at home or like me and my brother, I would be home a lot. So I'd watch more Disney Channel or browse the Internet more. But it was very much, you don't have electronics in your room. When I got a laptop for high school, it was like, you don't use it in your room, only in the open Was it explained why pornography was a big scare in the family?
Emma [01:14:25] And yeah, it was just you don't use it, which, I mean, I did. They didn't go so far as to like take away my laptop, but it was just the rule that you don't use electronics in your room. But I did anyway. They just didn't know.
Patriarchy, Priesthood, and Spiritual Practices at Home
John Dehlin [01:14:39] I asked this before, but talk about priesthood in the home, patriarchy in the home, and how spirituality were their father's blessings. You know, again I asked about family prayer and scripture study. How did Mormon spirituality manifest in your home?
Emma [01:14:58] Yeah, we would have father, father's blessings every year before school.
John Dehlin [01:15:02] What was that like?
Emma [01:15:04] We would all sit in a room. It would take forever. I hated it because there were so many of us that we would start oldest to youngest, and I'm the youngest, so I would always be last. And then my mom would go next. My dad would give my mom a father's blessing, but basically we would just all sit around and there'd be a chair in the middle and then you go sit in the chair when it's your turn. And you know, my dad laid his hands on her head and just blessed us for that school year that we would have the things we need, do well in school, that kind of thing. But with all 10 of us, it would take a long time and I remember hating it. We would definitely get like sick blessings.
John Dehlin [01:15:43] What do you mean?
Emma [01:15:44] If we were sick, we could ask for a blessing from my dad to like help heal us. I remember one time I asked with the priesthood.
John Dehlin [01:15:52] With oil.
Emma [01:15:53] With oil, Yep. So one of my older brothers would step in and help with the oil.
John Dehlin [01:15:57] So tell our non Mormons what that means.
Emma [01:15:59] The consecrating oil, which honestly I don't know if I even super know what it means, but it's blessed beforehand to be used as an instrument to cleanse and heal. So the first part is they consecrate the oil on your head. It's a rote blessing. Same thing said every time. And then they start over and another person blesses you to be healed.
John Dehlin [01:16:24] Carah, I'm both of you like growing up as a Mormon and I'm 52, so I grew up in the 80s. As a teen, everyone who had their, you know, every Mormon male that had their key ring, right, would have silver thing, a little vial attached to their key ring, a little chain with a little vial of oil.
John Dehlin [01:16:44] And what, what, what we were taught to do as Mormons, you would, you would consecrate the oil. So you would say a prayer over the oil so that it was consecrated, blessed by Heavenly Father. Oil, magic oil, basically, with priesthood power.
John Dehlin [01:17:00] And then you would carry that little vial around with you so that, like, if anyone was sick, if you're home teaching, if you're. And someone falls down and breaks their leg or gets in an auto accident, you always had this special magic oil with you. This almost sounds like.
John Dehlin [01:17:16] It almost sounds like fiction now that I'm hearing myself say it. And I haven't really done this since my mission, but if somebody's sick, somebody's in an accident, and they're Mormon, you'd pull out your little vial of oil, you would. You would drop a little bit on the. Their forehead, and then one of the two men would consecrate the oil by saying a little blessing. And then the second man would seal the anoint. I'm not even using the right words, but they would seal the anointing and then. And then pronounce a healing blessing with the belief that. That Mormon male priesthood holders literally had the power through sacred, special oil to heal sickness and diseases and. And that sort of thing. So was that, Carah? Was that a thing growing up for you?
Carah Burrell [01:18:03] Yeah, I'm just.
John Dehlin [01:18:03] Is that still Mormon?
Carah Burrell [01:18:04] Yeah, it's so Mormon that I think my husband still has his vial on his keychain. Aaron, take that off. We don't. We're not Mormon anymore. He still, like, probably has it on
John Dehlin [01:18:12] there, so that's still a thing.
Carah Burrell [01:18:14] It's still totally a thing. I'm still remembering. Yeah. All of the times throughout my marriage that my husband would give me a blessing. And, yeah, the whole, like, I. Having the Melchizedek priesthood, sealed this oil in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Then your husband has to do this. And it's. It's getting me a little bit, like, just thinking about it, like, man, when your husband uses the priesthood to heal you, it doesn't really work. But like, gosh, that was like, so cute.
John Dehlin [01:18:34] Was it hot? A little bit.
Carah Burrell [01:18:35] So cute.
John Dehlin [01:18:36] Warm and hot.
Carah Burrell [01:18:36] Yeah. Where he's like, I got it. He's like, got everything under control. Pulls out his keychain, dips this, like, really rancid oil on your head. Yeah, it's like this whole really romantic thing that happens, though.
John Dehlin [01:18:47] Romantic for you or for some. It's like spiritually powerful. It's like, this is the power of God on earth.
Carah Burrell [01:18:53] And your husband has that power sometimes, though. Kind of cute.
John Dehlin [01:18:57] Yeah. So did. Did your family believe that the special oil and the special Mormon prayers would heal the sick?
Emma [01:19:06] Oh, absolutely. It was something that happened often in my home. Plus I have three older brothers, so they were always around to help. I know that my brother that's two years older than me, he has that vial on his keychain today. Like, I know he has that. We always had an extra container in our fridge that was consecrated in case you ran out. It was like a little container that we had extras to fill it up with. Um, but yeah, they definitely believe that it would heal you. But it's ironic because I don't really remember like having an experience where I got a blessing and then was fine later. Like, that never really happened.
John Dehlin [01:19:45] But you never remember being healed.
Emma [01:19:47] Yeah, I never remember being healed. I do remember asking my dad for a blessing once. I had like sunstroke. We had been at an award activity and I didn't wear sunscreen. I was outside all day and I was feeling sick and nauseous. And I asked him and he said no, because it's a belief that you don't use the priesthood unless you're worthy. And I never asked him what happened or never, like, as an adult never went back and was like, hey, what happened that one day? I never asked, but I just remember feeling really sick and him saying no. And as a little kid, I remember being like, I'm so sick, dad. Come on, like, fix it. But yeah, it's a belief that you don't use the priesthood unless you're worthy and righteous.
John Dehlin [01:20:31] You. You wonder whether he wasn't worthy or that he thought you weren't worthy because you made a bad decision.
Emma [01:20:38] I think it was a him a personal thing. I was really little. I think I was like 12. So I think he was going through something internally where he felt unworthy and so he felt like he needed to decline giving a blessing.
John Dehlin [01:20:51] Wow.
Emma [01:20:52] But I never asked him why or what happened.
John Dehlin [01:20:55] Okay, so you believe that the, those, those special blessings with consecrated oil could heal, but you. Do you remember observing anyone ever being healed?
Emma [01:21:07] No.
John Dehlin [01:21:07] Okay.
Emma [01:21:08] No, I don't remember that.
John Dehlin [01:21:09] Okay. Anything you want to say about just patriarchy, about the role of the husband father versus the role of the wife mom in your home growing up?
Emma [01:21:20] Yeah, it was very much like my dad would go off and work and he would take care of the things outside. And my mom was in charge of the cooking and the cleaning. There wasn't really any bleed over in our home. Like, my dad rarely helped with things around the house. So it was very patriarchal.
John Dehlin [01:21:41] Washing the dishes or doing the laundry, that sort of thing.
Emma [01:21:45] Yeah, I don't think I ever saw my dad wash dishes or do laundry or clean anything, to be honest. But that's. You know, we were taught that that was how gender roles work, that the man goes and gets the money and comes home and brings it to the wife and she cooks and cleans.
Emma [01:22:04] But it's kind of ironic because when they first opened their title business, my mom would go and help at the office because he was overwhelmed. And so she would go and I would go stay at a friend's house because she was working at the office to help him. But he would never help at home. I mean, the most he would do is if my mom was tired, he'd buy us a pizza or we would go out to eat. But if she was too tired to cook, you know, he'd be like, okay, like, I'll buy you food, but I will never cook you.
John Dehlin [01:22:31] What about decision making and kind of power in the home in terms of, like, who had the final say? Was there any of that?
Emma [01:22:39] My dad always had the final say, but they would always present it as, like, oh, like, we're going to talk about it. But we always knew you asked mom first, because mom is. She would agree to more things than my dad would. But it would kind of give you whiplash because you would have a discussion with my mom, like, okay, this is what's going to happen. And then she would go talk to him, and then she would come back and it would, like, do a 180. Or you'd be like, whoa, I thought we were fine with this. Like, even as an adult, this would happen all the time. And so my dad always had the final say, but it's very much presented as, like, oh, we're united in this. But from conversations, you could tell that it was mostly coming from him and she was agreeing.
John Dehlin [01:23:20] Yeah. So life is always hard and stressful, I think no matter what type of home you grow up in. I'm wondering if there's any way to characterize whether your parents in this kind of very orthodox Mormon upbringing were happier, normal, or kind of less happy than average. It's probably impossible to even answer this question.
Emma [01:23:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:44] But I'm just wondering about your observations about everyone's happiness, because I can envision, like, everyone know there's. Knows their place, their structure, there's order, there's unity. And so, like, everyone's happier than normal or. So much stress, so much money, so many kids, so much pressure, so much patriarchy, everyone's miserable or something in the middle. Can you even make an assessment or evaluation like that?
Emma [01:24:09] I mean, it's hard because I haven't experienced anything else. But I think when I was younger, I perceived us as being happier where I was like, oh, we're happier, we're better than everyone else. But then as I got older, it felt more stressed. And like now as I like talk to other people about their upbringing, I'm like, wait a second, like, were we happier? Like, I don't now, I would say no, but at in the time, I thought we were happier than most families.
John Dehlin [01:24:41] Okay, okay. So what stories come out of your childhood or adolescence that are very important or formative to your faith journey, your Mormon journey? What? From either childhood or in adolescence, are there any really important stories that shaped you or your family in any important way? Trauma, happiness, joy, positive things, really negative things? What are the really important stories you would want to tell about your childhood or adolescence?
Formative Childhood Memories and a Major Move
Emma [01:25:14] Yeah, I think we mostly covered it like the prepping, all the chores that happened, that took up a big portion of my childhood. But then we decided to move. So the. My dad purchased that business that was three hours away. And then like two days later, after he signed the million dollar loan to buy it, the housing market crashed and it was based off of the housing market. And so for four years he like traveled back and forth. But my freshman year of high school, we decided to move.
Emma [01:25:50] And that's when, when we moved away, all of our preparation that we had spent about four years doing seemed to go to waste. Where, you know, we had purchased all these animals. We had a milk cow, we built this barn, but now we were moving and we sold the milk cow and we got rid of the pigs and we got rid of the chickens. And it was almost like this moment of like, why did we do all of that? And like my parents didn't sell the house, but since we weren't there to take care of the animals, which he gave some to a brother who lived just down the street.
Emma [01:26:23] It's like a little family, not compound, but it's my parents house, my grandparents house, my brother and then another brother lives just down the road and a sister lives seven minutes away. So they gave some of it to my siblings. But I just remember thinking like, we spent four years and now it's all gonna rot and rust while we go live somewhere else. And I remember some of my siblings expressing similar, like, what was all that for? Like, what? Why did we do that?
John Dehlin [01:26:57] There's a name for that type of reaction in Mormonism that comes from early first Nephi in the Book of Mormon. Do you know what word?
Emma [01:27:04] I'm murmurings.
John Dehlin [01:27:06] Yeah. Yep.
Emma [01:27:07] What is that in the Book of Mormon? You know, there's the righteous brother, Nephi, and then he has Layman and Lemuel, which are the unrighteous, and they murmur and they, like, naysay. And. Yeah, definitely some murmurings happened during that
Carah Burrell [01:27:24] move,
Emma [01:27:26] especially because, you know, my dad said that he had received a spiritual experience to purchase this business, and then a couple days later, it just crashed and turned out to be a really bad idea. So there were some more murmurings of, like, why did we do that when it was really bad? Like, that was a bad decision. So, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:27:48] And if I'm thinking about kind of Luna Lindsey Corbin's tools of undue influence, murmuring serves the function of what I would call thought stopping, because that's actually really fair. If Dad's receiving all these prophecies, if you're building this Zion in preparation for Jesus's coming, and then it all falls to, you know, falls to poop, let's say. It's natural to say, wait a minute, we were building towards this. You got these revelations and prophecies, and now it's all falling apart. So it's natural to just say, what happened? Can we rely on this method of, like, feeling things and feeling, like feelings inform us about the future? Is this. Is this system of epistemology, of knowing, of decision making, is it even reliable? Like, that's actually healthy critical thinking. But this teaching about murmuring serves what. What we call thought stopping, which is, hey, don't have those thoughts. Yeah, let's go do the next thing, you know.
Emma [01:28:52] Well, and we were also told, like, you know, God works in mysterious ways. We don't always know why we do what we do, but we just have to follow. Like, sometimes God tells you to do something as a test to see if you will actually do it, which is just a way to be like, if you think something's supposed to work out and it doesn't, then, you know, it was just a test. I don't know why I was supposed to do that, but I followed God, so I'm righteous still. And I, we're good.
John Dehlin [01:29:18] And that way there's never a problem. Because, I mean, if. If we go back to the beginning in 2000 years of, like, second coming talk constantly, Jesus isn't coming. You think he's coming, and then he's not, and then you think he's coming and he's not.
Emma [01:29:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:29:32] You have to have built in a system of like. Of adaptation. When the prophecies continually fail to come true. And so if you don't build in that resilience or that God's ways are higher than my ways, or it all works out in the end. Or don't question. If you don't have that built in, then people bail. Yeah, but if you've got that built in, sometimes a failed prophecy can even lead to increased devotion later. Did that ever happen?
Emma [01:30:01] It did. It kind of turned. There was like a few stories from my parents, early marriages that they would always bring up of like, oh, we were told we needed to move here, but I didn't want to because I didn't have a job. And then I moved and we got a job and I should have just left. So they always had stories that they would bring up of like, this is when I didn't know why I was doing it, but it worked out. And they would kind of throw those out a lot and then. But it seemed like something new always came up. So right about the time we were moving is when my parents discovered John Pontius.
John Dehlin [01:30:36] Spend some time on who that is and what the philosophy and teachings are and around what year that might have been. I was, I'm guessing 2012.
Emma [01:30:45] Yeah. I was gifted the book in 2013. I didn't remember this, but I still have the copy. My parents gave one to all of my siblings. They wrote a little note in the COVID It was in August of 2013 that they gave me that book. And it was. We had just moved, so we had just done the whole like. We spent four years preparing all these things to be self reliant and now we live three hours away. But they gifted this book and John Pontius was apparently not the person who was having these experiences. He was just telling them for someone who couldn't say who they were for safety reasons.
John Dehlin [01:31:22] I think that that word might. I mean, it might be pseudepigraph, but maybe not. Anyway, just someone writing on someone else's behalf.
Emma [01:31:30] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:30] Yeah.
Emma [01:31:32] So it wasn't his experiences that he was sharing. He was writing for someone else. And it started out as like, I didn't actually read the whole thing. I told my parents I would, but I got a couple chapters in and then I just listened to them talk about what was happening.
Emma [01:31:47] And they said they didn't take this book to be scripture, but they read it and they gave copies to friends. They really believed that this was a true account. The beginning of the book talked about like spirits and how, like everything has a spirit. I remember one section of the book that I did read talked about this guy watching pornography and these evil spirits like ripped into a tear through his head. And like him watching pornography or like having sin allowed evil spirits into his body.
Emma [01:32:19] And that terrified me. As a kid I was like evil spirits inhabiting my body if I do something wrong. But they believed that. And then the end of the book talks about end times and a huge flood coming to Salt Lake and all these calamities and then like some nation invading, I think it was China and like the world. The beginning of the end times was part of this book.
Emma [01:32:45] And so it was like a new wave, although we were not in the country, so we couldn't like get animals or anything. But it was like this new obsession of preparing for the second coming. So, yeah, John Pontius was a big part of my early high school days.
John Dehlin [01:33:07] Yeah. And it's like starting over, but with a renewed vigor that this time it's really going to happen. Right. Is that right?
Emma [01:33:13] Yeah, like we didn't really understand and so we made all these preparations. So like my parents thought I didn't mention this earlier, but we were told about this prophecy from John Taylor. We lived in the Rocky Mountains that in the last days, this is John
John Dehlin [01:33:27] Taylor was the third Mormon president or prophet after Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. John Taylor was number three. He would have been in the jail when Joseph Smith was killed.
Emma [01:33:38] So.
John Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah, so he had a prophecy.
Emma [01:33:41] Yeah, we were told and I tried to find a copy of this prophecy and I could not. But it was something we talked about often, that in the last days people would flee to the Rocky Mountains for safety. And we lived in the Rocky Mountains and so we were preparing for people to come to us and we would take care of them. And then we moved and it was like, oh, we didn't really understand. You know, we thought that we were going to be the base. But according to John Pontius, you know, we'll like live. They also read Julie Rose. A Greater Tomorrow was another book that they really liked about tent cities. And so they're like, oh, we thought we were the base of safety, but you know, we're going to be living in tents and moving out. So they just thought they misunderstood what was happening.
John Dehlin [01:34:22] And we've talked a lot about Julie Rowe on past episodes, but Julie Rowe is just a Mormon mom who started having these near death experiences. This is recent, in the past five, 10 years, started having visions about the second coming, predicting earthquakes, predicting that Jesus would come again, and acting as almost like a modern day prophetess for all these preppers, telling them they needed to get their food supplies they needed to get their ammo and their tents and their trailers because the second coming was coming. And she was the prophetess telling Mormons to get ready, sell your 401ks, you know, sell your homes, congregate and get ready for 10 cities.
John Dehlin [01:35:08] But the end was nigh. And she was a very instrumental partner with Chad Daybell and Lori Valo and others that, that led to some really dark things. But she's still alive. She's still prophesying. She has her own tick tock now. She used to have her own YouTube channel. But she has been a really important figure and she's been excommunicated as well.
John Dehlin [01:35:32] But she has been a really important sort of modern day figure in the Mormon prepper movement. So. So Julie Rowe and then John Pontius were two really important spiritual leaders for your parents. What about Denver Snuffer? Did that name ever come up?
Emma [01:35:50] No, I've never heard of Denver Snuffer.
John Dehlin [01:35:51] Okay. To this day.
Emma [01:35:52] To this day.
John Dehlin [01:35:53] Okay. All right.
Emma [01:35:54] Today's the first time.
John Dehlin [01:35:55] Okay. Wow.
Emma [01:35:56] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:35:56] That's weird. Okay.
Emma [01:35:57] But yeah, those two people, Julie wrote John Pontius and that kind of increased like extra church activity. And I'm not sure which one, but one of them said that the call from the church would come in a special state conference where there was a state conference. And then the prophet would say, you have like two weeks, pack up your stuff, move to the woods, the world's ending soon. But you'll. This is your notice.
Emma [01:36:26] So I think after that time we never missed like a state conference because it was like, oh, they're going to tell us before this happens. So that kind of increased church activity. And then around this time that my parents had this craze with these books. My dad was reading a lot of near death experiences. And some of them he was like, oh, this one's just a bunch of bull crap. But like, these two are real because the John Pontius and the Julie Rowe were both near death experiences.
Emma [01:36:56] Then around this time, my parents received a revelation that my mother would be dying soon. And we had come home. My older brother was blessing a baby that weekend. He had recently had a baby. And so we were heading to the baby blessing and we come home and my parents are like, sit down, we have to tell you something.
Emma [01:37:20] And then they like launched into this whole thing of we received a revelation that your mom is dying soon. And at the time, I totally trusted my parents spiritual revelations. You know, like they met within three days and got married. And that's, you know, that's how they were supposed to find each other. But then all of my siblings decided to come because we all thought that she was dying soon.
John Dehlin [01:37:47] Do you have any, like. Okay, viewers and listeners, for those of you who know who Chad Dabel and Lori Valo are, You know, you'll know that Chad Daybell ends up killing his wife after. Allegedly. After receiving revelation that she would die. But also, Julie, Lori Vallow ends up killing her husband. But. But from the episodes we did on. On Chad Dabel and Lori Valo, it turns out that Julie Rowe received revelation that her husband was going to die.
Carah Burrell [01:38:21] And.
John Dehlin [01:38:21] And it is a very common revelation for preppers to receive that one member of a marriage is going to die. Now, this is. This might. I'm thinking, my friend Mindy, this might blow some of you away. But. But you. You, Emma, to this day, you had never heard of Chad Dabel or Lori Valo before. Is that correct?
Emma [01:38:46] That's correct.
John Dehlin [01:38:47] Okay.
Emma [01:38:48] No idea who they were.
John Dehlin [01:38:48] And it's. That's fascinating because they've been international news. Like, They've been on 2020. They've been on Nightline. They've been on, like, Dateline multiple, multiple, multiple times. You come out of the same culture that they came out of, there was, like, murder of spouses and children and multiple people.
Emma [01:39:06] Oh, I had heard about them, but I didn't recognize their names.
John Dehlin [01:39:09] Okay, so you had heard about the murders, but you had didn't know their names?
Emma [01:39:12] I heard about them of, like, three years ago.
John Dehlin [01:39:14] Okay.
Emma [01:39:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:39:15] But. But, like, part of that is that what we learned from interviewing, you know, some experts in this area is that it's very common for Mormon preppers to receive revelations that at least one spouse. Member is going to die. It's never both. It's always one, and it's often the wife. And I just want to know, did you ever get any explanation from your parents as to why they concluded that your mom was gonna die?
Revelations, Prophecies, and Fringe Influences
Emma [01:39:47] No. And, you know, like, they. She didn't die. And so still to this day, when we've asked for, like, explanation, I don't. They haven't said why, but they. Yeah, we just asked him. Like, I believed that it was true, you know, because they received revelation. And at the time, we trusted them. And so all of my siblings. Some of my siblings traveled from other states to come to our house, but they came to my house, and we were all, like, saying goodbye to my mom.
Emma [01:40:22] And then, like, that night, they, like, went up to her room, and that was. I thought I was gonna see her for the last time. And then we woke up the next morning and my parents were like, oh, nope, like, just kidding. It's not today, but it's sometime soon.
Emma [01:40:36] And so we just had this overall feeling of like, mom's going to die soon, but we don't know when. I requested my mom to write me letters for important days in my life, like a graduation and a wedding, because I thought she wasn't going to be there. And years later, it comes up sometimes and we ask them, like, why? What happened? We didn't. She didn't die. I'm so glad. But they, they never, you know, they just say, we don't know. You know, like, we know that we received that revelation, but we don't know why she's still here. And so they still truly believe that that was a real revelation and there's been no, like, explanation or apology for anything. Like, they still believe that they received that revelation.
John Dehlin [01:41:18] And do you have any theory about why that happened?
Emma [01:41:21] I have no theory. I had no idea till today that that was a common theme with Mormon preppers. I have no idea. I just know that that was kind of a traumatic experience as a 16 year old thinking that your mom was going to die soon and that, you know, I was the only child at home at the time and I was going to be alone with my dad. I actually graduated a whole year early from high school because I didn't want to have to stay home and be like the wife and mother to him and take care of the house. Because I truly believe that that was. I believed them. I thought that was going to happen. And when it didn't happen, that really started the disillusion of.
John Dehlin [01:41:57] Huh.
Emma [01:41:58] I think, you know, their revelations aren't what they say they are and maybe God isn't really talking to them.
John Dehlin [01:42:08] Would you mind if I just took a minute to explain at least to our listeners of viewers and maybe even to you.
Emma [01:42:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:42:15] My observation as to why this happens in Mormon prepper families.
Emma [01:42:18] Go for it.
John Dehlin [01:42:19] Okay. I'm not trying to tell you what your experience was, but I'm just, I think it's an important thing to cover. So this is John putting on a psychology hat and his life experience hat. So one normal, ubiquitous human experience is that in midlife marriages, members of a, you know, people in a couple, in a marriage start to have what's called a midlife crisis, which means that, you know, life gets really hard, the couple can kind of fall out of love with each other, life can get really rote, and, you know, the passion and the fire in the marriage kind of starts to go away.
John Dehlin [01:42:58] When you couple that with kind of the parental involvement in these small groups, study groups, conservative fundamentalist groups, prepper groups, what you'll find is, is that once, once these members of a couple start interacting with other couples, they naturally start having feelings for each other, like men for other women or women for other men, or, you know, whatever it is. And so we saw this with the Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow sort of thing is that it's like, well, you know, this isn't correlated Mormon church community.
John Dehlin [01:43:40] These are like these offshoot conservative, non correlated conservative Mormon communities. But they're meeting in study groups, talking about the end of times, talking about the temple, the, the going to conferences, engaging in study groups. And as soon as you get midlife couples interacting with other couples, you start to get romantic interests that start to blossom, extramarital romantic influences. But in a Mormon context, I mean, if you're not even letting, if you're not letting your daughters even wear nail polish, you know, or date until they're 16 or even kiss until they're married, of course, extramarital relationships are completely, outrageously forbidden, except the fact that our founder, the founder of Mormonism was a polygamist.
John Dehlin [01:44:38] And polygamy is literally enshrined in Mormon scripture, in doctrine and covenants 132. And the most respected Mormon in the world, Joseph smith, had over 30 wives. So when you put all that into the mix, what happens in the minds of many of these Mormon preppers, and it's not just Mormon preppers, is maybe, and you add to it this belief that that like emotions equal the spirit.
John Dehlin [01:45:09] You can have these feelings for a woman that isn't your wife that you're doing prepper stuff with. Right? You have feelings for them and it's the spirit.
Emma [01:45:18] And what, it's the spirit telling you that, oh, she's the one, she's going
John Dehlin [01:45:24] to be a plural wife. Right. But then what do you do if you're in a marriage and your wife is living and yet, you know, you can't be practicing polygamy now because that's not. The church is sort of like put polygamy on pause, then how do you be with this person? That the Holy Ghost is telling you it's your hormones, but the Holy Ghost is telling you you're going to be with this person. You need to be with this person.
John Dehlin [01:45:51] This is my interpretation. This is what I've observed. What's the natural conclusion you would draw as a righteous male priesthood Holder, when you're hot for some other woman, but you're married to this woman you're no longer having feelings for, what revelation might you receive? And I'm not, I'm not trying to be insensitive and I'm not trying to tell you or plant this in, but I've seen this many, many, many, many times. What's the conclusion that a priesthood holder might draw?
Emma [01:46:20] Yeah, like, my wife's gonna die soon
John Dehlin [01:46:24] so that then I can be with this other woman that I have feelings for. Now, you did talk about your dad not being able to bless you at one point with the priesthood blessing. You know, I don't know. But sometimes infidelity breaks out in these groups and it's justified with this sort of Joseph Smith DNC132 polygamy spiritual wife kind of logic. And that's exactly what happened. That's how Chad Daybell ended up with Lori Valo while he was still married to Tammy Daybell. And that's how spouses ended up, in fact dying and even children ended up dying. Is you just kind of take this mentality to its sometimes dark conclusion.
Emma [01:47:03] Yeah. And I mean, to be fair to my dad, I think that was definitely not the case, which I think it could be for other people. He, all of his study was personal study. He didn't meet in like other groups. I don't think there was ever any other woman. So at least in my family that wasn't the case. But that is, I didn't know that. That's a really interesting theory. And I don't know why. Yeah. They could not even tell you why they received that revelation.
John Dehlin [01:47:29] Okay.
Emma [01:47:30] To this day.
John Dehlin [01:47:31] Well, go ahead, Carah.
Carah Burrell [01:47:32] We need to do a podcast where we invite on a panel of all of the women who have ever been invited into polygamous marriages. Or like, I think that is just so common. What you just, you just said, you know so many people who have done that who have just been offered and then they said no. Like, I, I bet we could fill a panel on Mormon stories of people who have been right at that precipice of that situation of being like, offered to come into like a regular or like a normal Mormon family. And then the next step is like, would you like to be a polygamous wife? And they've chosen not to. I know of people in my own circles who have been, who have rejected that invite. So that would be an interesting Mormon stories one day.
Emma [01:48:09] That.
John Dehlin [01:48:09] That is another derivation of this is like teenage or college age girls or unmarried young women. Having Mormon men who are in marriages with kids getting the revelation that this cute young thing is supposed to be their plural wife. That, that, that's happened. It's happened to friends of mine. It's happened to dozens and dozens and dozens of people that I know. It happened to someone we interviewed and Carrie, you're smiling.
Carah Burrell [01:48:37] I'm just thinking of a story of like a 60 year old stake President taking an 18 year old on a cruise with him and saying, my wife says it's cool. Would you like to be my new polygamous wife? And her saying, get me back on land immediately.
John Dehlin [01:48:49] Anyway, and we're not trying to say that this is the average Mormon experience and it happens a lot. So it's both. It's not the average Mormon experience, but it happens every, probably every ward and every stake in Mormonism has had this happen multiple times. And every Mormon that any of us know knows people that this has happened to.
Carah Burrell [01:49:13] Yeah, it's not a Catholic problem, I'll tell you that much about Mormonism.
John Dehlin [01:49:17] I mean, it may manifest in other ways, but this is a, this is a thing. So.
Emma [01:49:22] Yeah, yeah. But I think what happened next in life was them trying to rationalize, like, why did we receive this revelation? And it didn't happen because soon after, like about a year, it kind of calmed down, but we were all just kind of waiting. Like, I remember my sisters having conversations of like, how are you feeling, mom? Like, is it going to happen anytime soon? And she was like, no, I don't know. And then my parents decided like, oh, like we have more to do on Earth. And that's why she's still here. And that kind of rushed in the second wave of prepping for my family, where they then received a revelation that they were supposed to, supposed to build this huge fortress in the mountains for the last days to save people.
Emma [01:50:07] It was like their new mission in life. They. I was a junior in high school, I think, when this happened. They purchased 80 acres of land in the mountains and we're like, yep, this is the spot. We're gonna build this.
Emma [01:50:25] They like made us these huge, more than 72, 72 hour kits. It was like this big hiking bag full of like fire starters and water purifiers and shelters and blankets and things. I have it in my car, actually. I still have the huge thing they got us EMP protectors for our car.
John Dehlin [01:50:44] What are those?
Emma [01:50:46] So it's electromagnetic pulse protection in case. Talk about that person, you know, in the government or someone, they like drop this bomb almost that sends this Pulse and kills all electronics and anything that runs, including cars and things. And so they purchased this so that if someone were to drop that we could still use our cars and get home to them in Colorado and live in this fortress with it.
John Dehlin [01:51:20] So there's a basic belief that electromagnetic pulses would be used to harm people and that you had to prepare for that.
Emma [01:51:28] It's like a. I guess, a guess for them. They're not sure that it's going to happen, but they want to be prepared in case it does. And I have that on my car too. They installed it in my car a few years ago, actually.
John Dehlin [01:51:42] So a device that would pro. That would protect your car from electromagnetic pulses that the government, I'm assuming, would send out to. Yeah, disable all transportation.
Emma [01:51:54] I'm not sure how it works. It's supposed to like capture all of the pulse so that your car is protected and can still run. And they gave one to all of my siblings. I think they cost somewhere 300 upwards. And they purchased one for every sibling in my family and installed them in their cars. That was a Christmas present, like three years ago.
Carah Burrell [01:52:17] They're called what again?
Emma [01:52:18] EMP protectors.
Carah Burrell [01:52:20] Emp?
Emma [01:52:21] Electromagnetic pulse.
Carah Burrell [01:52:22] I'm gonna get in that business, start selling them.
Emma [01:52:25] And they're not even sure if it actually works because you'd have to drop an EMP to test it. And, you know, it hasn't happened.
Carah Burrell [01:52:32] Right.
Emma [01:52:33] So that happens. The. The huge. We call it the bug out bag. You know, it's a hiking bag. They. That was a Christmas present, I think, four years ago. It's like they're. You know, my dad believes that it's his calling in life to protect his children from what will happen in the second coming. So that happened. And then they purchased that huge land.
Emma [01:52:54] They decided that they didn't want anyone to know about it. They were afraid of like the government coming to take it away from them. So they told us we weren't supposed to tell anyone about it. So. Sorry, dad, I'm telling people about it. But they purchased 80 acres of land and it's supposed to be a dome that's five stories.
Emma [01:53:12] The bottom floor would be like a hospital for sick people. Elderly people could stay there. I think the fourth floor would just be rooms. Third floor would be a kitchen. I don't remember everything. And then the top floor would be like a sacrament room for church.
John Dehlin [01:53:30] Almost like a temple. Almost, but like a. Okay, so you had built. What was the first thing you built in the first place you lived?
Emma [01:53:36] We built like a barn, a growing Dome.
John Dehlin [01:53:38] Growing dome, yep. So you had a growing dome that all went to nothing.
Emma [01:53:43] It's all pretty much ruined now.
John Dehlin [01:53:45] And then you. Then they have the revelation for the 80 acres, and then what's the thing they built?
Emma [01:53:50] It's actually not done yet. It's.
John Dehlin [01:53:51] They. They say they're supposed to build. It's what?
Emma [01:53:54] It's. I just call it the Fortress in the mountains. There's not really a name. It's just supposed to be. I think it's gonna house apparently like 500 people. It can house for the last time. Same idea, different place.
Dad's Revelation to Build a Mountain Fortress
John Dehlin [01:54:07] So it's your dad that receives this revelation, that he's supposed to build a fortress on 80 acres in the mountains?
Emma [01:54:15] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:54:16] And you, you gave it a name, a dome. What is it?
Emma [01:54:19] The fortress. I call it a fortress.
John Dehlin [01:54:21] Fortress. A five story fortress in the mountains of solitude. And your dad receives this revelation almost like a prophet himself, right?
Emma [01:54:32] Yep. This happened about one year before I left on my mission. And this kind of started to create more disillusion because at this time, you know, they had received revelation that my mom was going to die and it didn't happen. And many of my siblings were like, how can we trust you? Because faulty revelation here. And that caused a lot of contention in my family where people were kind of fighting about it. And my dad was upset because he was like, you guys don't trust me. I'm the patriarch, you know, you don't respect me. And so we all just kind of let it rest where it's like, you know, we don't know because we're not him.
Emma [01:55:10] You know, that's the idea, is you can only receive revelation for yourself. But something that bugged me at the time was if they were supposed to build this building for people in the church, why didn't it come through a stake president or the prophet? Like, why didn't someone else tell him to build it? And why is he receiving the revelation for himself?
John Dehlin [01:55:34] You were wondering that?
Emma [01:55:35] I was wondering that. It was kind of bugging me. I had another brother that was upset because they had said they were going to go on a mission and decided to not serve a senior mission as a couple to stay home and build this fortress.
Emma [01:55:48] So that happened about a year before my mission. Because it was top secret, they decided to mill all the wood themselves they purchased, like a sawmill. My dad grew up as a miller, a sawmiller, so he kind of knew what to do.
Emma [01:56:02] So they did that. They're just planning on. Yeah, cutting down all the trees from their own property, making Everything themselves, so no one would have to know about it. And about a. It was like a month before I left on my mission. We were transporting a logger, I think, and it didn't have brakes.
Emma [01:56:22] And this is where we kind of get into where prepping can be potentially harmful. I mean, not only the fear, but like physical danger. They purchased an army truck and I was supposed to help them move it by driving the army truck. And we connected the logger with a chain. And my dad was in the logger and he was steering it.
Emma [01:56:48] And if we were going down any hills, I was instructed to go fast so that he wouldn't come in and crash into me. And then once I got to the top of the hill, slow down so that you know, he wouldn't go flying down the road.
Emma [01:57:00] But it's the thousands of pounds of machinery and me driving this army truck that's not like a regular car. He had to teach me how to man this truck in the mountains. And we almost died, I'd say several times just because we didn't have a bar to stop it from crashing into the army truck. So that happened right before my mission.
John Dehlin [01:57:24] And that reminds me of some scenes in Tara Westover's book Educated where, where this, this sort of like do it yourself construction prepper, end of times mentality leads to just very physically unhealthy situations for children or family members. Not to throw shade on anyone, but it sounds very, very similar to a scene in Tara Westover's Educated.
Emma [01:57:50] Yeah, it was a really scary experience. Like I didn't want to do it, but I was the only one there that could help him do that. And so I was like, okay, you're going to drive this truck. And it was really scary doing that whole thing. And luckily no one got hurt.
Emma [01:58:04] And then I left on my mission. But while I was on my mission, I kind of missed out on a whole everything that happened. Some siblings told me about stories where they almost got hurt. There's like a pole in the middle that holds up the whole building.
Emma [01:58:20] And it almost fell on top of my brother when they were trying to set it in. I have nephews that have been helping build it. It's all done by my family. So from what I've heard, there's been a lot of close like near death experiences in building this five story thing for the end of the times.
John Dehlin [01:58:40] Yeah, because your dad's, your dad and his family members, they're not builders. Right? That's not their day job.
Emma [01:58:47] I mean, my brother's a, he's a construction worker. It's his day job. But.
John Dehlin [01:58:50] Okay, but like, not experience. They're not experienced fortress builders.
Emma [01:58:56] No, not architects. My dad's the architect behind this. He's definitely not an architect. I mean, he has sawmilled before, but there's been a lot of danger involved in this building.
John Dehlin [01:59:06] Yeah. Yeah. And so just to really put a fine point on this, it's 2022. Your parents and extended family are building a five, four or five story fortress somewhere in Colorado to prepare for the end times with kind of very extreme ideologies and. Or sometimes very unsafe working conditions. Yeah, but that's what their religiosity, their Mormon end of times prepper religiosity. That's what. That's what it's telling them to do.
Emma [01:59:41] Yeah. Like it's happening now. My mom asked me to come home for the summer to sew curtains for this thing. Like it's. This isn't something that used to happen. Like it's happening today.
Carah Burrell [01:59:50] Wow.
Emma [01:59:51] Like, they're working on it currently and
Carah Burrell [01:59:54] they could get in trouble. I'm assuming if people find out where this is or like, because I'm assuming they're not following, like the local codes and have permits and the things like that, or. Unless they do.
Emma [02:00:05] No, it's very secret. Yeah. I didn't even think about permits, but it is on their own personal property, so they're not like trespassing. But. Yeah, they could get in trouble. Yeah. As far as I know, they have shared with like the local bishop, I think knows about it, but he was basically like, I'm just gonna stay out of it, like, whatever. But other than that, not many people know about it.
Carah Burrell [02:00:30] That's intense.
John Dehlin [02:00:30] Yeah. And just. Just for our non Mormons or Mormons that aren't aware, this is not just Emma's family. This is like all along the Wasatch front, all along the i15 corridor in cache Valley, in Rexburg, Idaho, in rural Idaho, all across Utah, southern Utah into Arizona, Nevada. There are Mormons everywhere who may not be as extreme as your parents, but then your parents maybe weren't as extreme as they are now. Like, there are, there are, and there
Emma [02:01:05] could be more extreme people.
John Dehlin [02:01:06] Yeah, exactly.
Emma [02:01:08] All.
John Dehlin [02:01:09] All throughout Mormonism, there are Mormon families that are captivated by this end times prepper mentality to the point that, like, Mormon church leaders are extremely worried that they're going to lose more of their devout Mormons to kind of fundamentalist prepper ideologies than they are to people leaving the church over LGBT issues or feminism or Church claim stuff. And by the way, that's an epidemic in and of itself. So if this prepper movement is two or three or five times bigger than the church is really fracturing and being split right now on both sides really quickly, I'm again, I'm surprised you haven't heard the name Denver Snuffer because Denver, Denver Snuffer started publish.
John Dehlin [02:02:03] He's a lawyer from Sandy who started publishing books in the 2000s even, even in the late 90s, you know, right along the same time these Pontius book was coming out. And then later Julie Rose started doing her thing. But Denver Snuffer, his, his brand of Mormonism was the church is the, the corporate Mormon church is kind of falling into apostasy. They're starting to become worldly, they're starting to care about materialism and corporate legalism and the brethren are kind of losing. They're become the. The church leaders are falling into apostasy. They're falling out of God's favor.
John Dehlin [02:02:50] Instead, individual Mormons should pray to God and have their own personal relationship and witness with Jesus because the modern Mormon church is actually going to experience another apostasy. And it's this new emerging form of fundamentalist Mormonism that's actually the true Mormonism.
John Dehlin [02:03:13] And that this group with Denver Snuffer or others as the leaders are going to be the one mighty and strong or the Church of the Lamb of God or whatever. And they're going to be the ones. It's not going to be Russell M. Nelson and Down H. Oaks and Henry Eyring that received Jesus. It's going to be Denver Snuffer or Julie Rowe or these Chad Dabel or Lori Valo or these people, prepper Mormons in these tent cities in rural Idaho, Utah, Colorado, Nevada, that are going to be the ones that actually receive Christ. And so it's this whole level of personal apostasy Mormon fundamentalism that I'm curious if you ever felt any remnants of that or if your parents brand of Mormonism was always Russell M. Nelson or Thomas S. Monson. Are the prophets still?
Emma [02:04:03] Yeah, actually when the whole Covid thing happened, I would say many of my family members had like a personal crisis where especially my dad was like, wait a second, like why is the prophet telling us that we need to be vaccinated when it could have a chip in it or things like that. So I think.
John Dehlin [02:04:23] And what about masks?
Emma [02:04:25] Masks, they hate masks. But it's also weird because my dad has diabetes, is over 65, he's like in all of the categories that makes you worried.
John Dehlin [02:04:34] High risk categories.
Emma [02:04:35] And he's worried about COVID Like, he was really worried about it, but at the same time was like, why are they telling us that we have to do this? So they all kind of had their own personal crisis. And it's. I mean, we were taught that even the elect shall be deceived. And so there's this idea in Mormonism that even if you're in the church, you're still not safe. And so I think there are remnants of that where it's like, we need to stay vigilant because we can't trust everyone. Because in the last days, people will be deceived.
Carah Burrell [02:05:07] Yeah, it's always this weird paradox. I still have not figured it out yet. Maybe you can help me find some clarity. Yeah, there's this weird paradox of like the last and the days will be deceived. Even up to the prophet telling us to not do something, but technically to believe in the Mormon Church as it stands, you believe the prophet holds those keys. So it's like you have to sustain them and as the one who holds the keys of this current dispensation. But then they also can be deceived and you don't have to follow them because sometimes they say wrong things that are completely, you know, out of left field. I still have no. How do. How do people like your parents make sense of that? Because I'm still.
John Dehlin [02:05:44] It's this scratch my head about tension between one true church with a patriarchal priesthood, clear lines of authority, with the prophet who's called by God to lead the church. It's the tension between that and personal revelation where you can have your own relationship with God and Jesus and it can even be that the prophet is receiving legitimate revelation. But you get special revelation for you and your family that exempts you from the revelation the Mormon prophets receiving. Tell me if any of that is valid.
Emma [02:06:14] Yeah, and that's just kind of where, like, my family members have split. Because up until this point, I would say, like, my family sort of had a united front of, you know, follow the prophet. This is how it goes. But then when Covid happened and vaccines happened, my family had been anti vax up until that point.
Emma [02:06:31] And my parents were like, well, we received the revelation that we shouldn't receive the vaccination. But then I had siblings that were like, well, the prophet said to. So we're going to. So even in my own family, it's kind of been a split where people aren't agreeing.
Emma [02:06:49] But my parents are along the lines of I receive revelation for myself, but I follow the prophet even if it's not the same. And I think they don't even know that they are have this paradox. They just are like, well, you know, like revelation is important, but they just don't see that. It's like a disconnect.
John Dehlin [02:07:09] So your parents were against receiving the COVID vaccine.
Emma [02:07:14] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:07:15] And your parents were against wearing masks. But they were also. Your dad was also in a very high risk, several high risk categories where he was very vulnerable to dying because
Emma [02:07:26] of COVID And so they quarantined by themselves for a while.
John Dehlin [02:07:30] But they wouldn't sue the prepper mentality just fine, right?
Emma [02:07:33] Yeah, yeah, they wouldn't. Well, I had a brother, brother that lived next door and they wouldn't see him for a few weeks. And so it was just this weird like. Yeah, where I was like, I don't even know what you're trying to get after here. You're not going to wear a mask, but you're afraid that you're going to die from COVID So.
John Dehlin [02:07:52] And then crazy. And then it's causing a fracture in your family because some want to follow the Mormon prophet Russell M. Nelson, who said wear masks and get vaccinated. What about. And then others don't. Correct.
Emma [02:08:05] Correct. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:08:06] And then what about kind of this conspiracy mentality that I've heard by some that actually the brethren are either being hijacked or they're speaking in code so that they may be saying certain things, but meaning different. Kind of like a almost a Q Anon type of coded communication that only the elect can discern. You were nodding your head. What were you?
Emma [02:08:29] That's so spot on. My entire life I've heard, oh, they can't say this because the prophets, you know, the prophets, the authorities can't say this because the world would have a heyday. But like we know what they mean. Like with things like caffeine. We didn't drink caffeine growing up and it's like, oh, well, they can't come out and ban caffeine because everyone would freak out. But like we know we're not supposed to drink it and they can't come out and say that they're against Covid and they think it's a conspiracy. My parents believe that Covid was created to, I don't know, create a distraction and there would be world domination by some group. But it's like, oh, the church can't come out because then we would get our religious freedom taken away. Like that is the ultimate excuse. For anything.
Vaccines, Masks, and Distrust of Church Leadership
John Dehlin [02:09:17] And so in their minds, when the prophet comes out in support of vaccines and masks, are they potentially believing that the prophets really don't believe in vaccines and masks, but have to say that
Emma [02:09:32] yes, it was presented as this is what's culturally acceptable at the moment. So they have to walk the line between culturally, culturally acceptable so that people don't like, come against the church, but also, yeah, talking in code so that members can take their religious freedom and receive their own revelation to understand what God wants them to know that the prophet can't say because. Because he's a public figure.
John Dehlin [02:10:02] And this is where, this is why I kind of wanted to talk about the history beforehand because this is where John Bircher society stuff comes back into play. Because if you guys remember, the whole John Bircher theory was that there's this global conspiracy, this new World order, often led by Jews behind the scenes that were trying to take over the world. Mark of the beast, end time, Satan kind of stuff. So that's John Bircher stuff of the 50s and 60s and 70s, which happen to be anti Semitic or anti Jew care. I want you to Google this because just this year there was a, an it like a software startup executive in Utah who started a successful software company who was just kicked off his own board of directors.
John Dehlin [02:10:57] Millionaire guy who came out publicly and said that he believed that the Jews were behind the, the COVID hoax as a way to like kill off non Jews or something to that effect.
Carah Burrell [02:11:11] Tech entrepreneur and GOP fundraiser calls COVID 19 vaccine an extermination plot by the Jews.
John Dehlin [02:11:18] Yeah, and he even had the gall to say, well, I'm not anti Semitic. I, I have friends that are Jews. It's not all Jews, it's just a certain group of Jews. But, but like literally educated or at least financially successful Mormons went to BYU a lot. Yeah, BYU grad, wealthy, successful. It's not just him, right? There are a lot of Mormons that, that have like brought in this John Bircher, like New World Order conspiracy theory, combined it with COVID and anti Semitism or anti Jewish ideology and are literally believing that Covid was a hoax designed by Jews to kill people. Kind of QAnon level absurdity, which in
Emma [02:12:04] my dad's study, there's like something in the scriptures that say in the last days the world will go against Jerusalem. And so in his mind, people turning against the Jews is a sign of the end times, where if people are against Israel, it's like, oh, yep, that's a sign. So my dad's actually very pro Israel and Jewish people because in his mind it's oh, we can't turn against them because that's a sign of the times.
John Dehlin [02:12:34] Wow. Yeah. So this is for just non Mormons. This is ripping right now. Has been ripping Mormonism apart. Like we, we had again, we had our source who's in a state high council report that a member of their stake presidency, which is like the leader, three leaders over eight to 10 Mormon congregations, a member of a stake presidency had to resign from the stake presidency because he was coming out on social media with super pro Trump, super anti COVID vaccine, anti mask kind of prepper rhetoric. And it was becoming super divisive in the wards and stakes of their stake and it was causing, it was contributing to a big chunk of Mormons that believe Russell and Nelson, our prophet has potentially fallen into apostasy and or personal revelation trumping obedience to prophets within Mormon culture.
John Dehlin [02:13:35] And apparently Mormon church leaders are terrified that the, the church is ripping in half. You know, it's like people leaving on the left and now people even leaving more from the right.
Emma [02:13:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:13:47] Are you seeing that in.
Emma [02:13:49] Yeah, I am seeing that. I remember like when covet happened, I was in the middle of my faith transition and that's when I tried to talk to my parents originally and I was like, I'm not sure. And then, you know, my dad was like, you know, I had my moment too where I wasn't sure about the profit. But I know it's true and you know it's true. So you know, but that was when I realized that my family was really struggling with Russell M. Nelson being very pro vaccine and masks and all of that thing. Yeah, it is creating a huge divide.
Failed Prophecies and the Cost of Prepper Belief
John Dehlin [02:14:21] Okay, so we talked about for part two of your interview, talking about your mission to the Philippines. Is there any other, are there any other stories you want to tell about your kind of pre mission life and all these prepper dynamics or your family dynamics or your personal experiences that are important for your story before we wrap up part one, before we do part two.
Emma [02:14:44] Yeah, I think we covered most of it. I did forget to mention my dad had this own interpretation of the Bible that the, the second coming would start October 2020.
John Dehlin [02:14:56] What?
Emma [02:14:56] So that was a big day. He like that's two years ago. Yeah, that was two years ago. Yeah, like times and time and a half. So a time meant a year and time SM two years and a time and a time and a half was like half a year. So he like did this whole calculation and did the seals. A seal was supposed to mean a thousand years.
Emma [02:15:15] But then the sixth seal and the seventh seal overlap. So he, like, did this calculation. He was like, okay, October 2020 is when it's gonna happen. So before college admission, I was afraid. I was like, why would I go to college if the world's gonna end soon?
Emma [02:15:34] So that was kind of. I was in living in fear of, like, I don't even know how to plan for my life because it's ending soon. And then we were doing all the prepping, but then once I left on my mission, I kind of got away from the prepping. But, yeah, that's about it.
Carah Burrell [02:15:52] Did he make that prediction in the middle of 2020, like, when the pandemic was already going, or did he make this, like, way before 2020?
Emma [02:15:59] It was, I want to say, like, 2016, 2017 is when he made that prediction.
Carah Burrell [02:16:05] All right, I like it.
Emma [02:16:06] Yep.
Carah Burrell [02:16:07] The world kind of did go to hell around that time. Okay.
Emma [02:16:09] And then when it happened, I was, like, waiting. He thought it was going to happen during the October 2020 General Conference.
Carah Burrell [02:16:14] Oh, no.
Emma [02:16:15] Because that was part of John Pontius's book where the flood would happen. And then during a conference in the fall, they would announce the deaths of apostles and different people and so.
John Dehlin [02:16:26] What do you mean, the deaths of apostles?
Emma [02:16:28] That people would die during that calamity of the flood. And it was going to be, like, a big funeral and commemoration, and that would be the start. And so he thought that was when it happened. And I remember that conference just being like, all right. And then nothing happened.
Carah Burrell [02:16:45] Yeah. Then what did he. What was his reaction? Did you ever talk about it, or was it just awkward?
Emma [02:16:49] We have not talked about it to this day. Like, I've thought about asking him about it, but it's just unspoken. Like, no apology has been made. No. Like, oh, I thought. But, like, I was wrong. Like, we just don't talk about it.
John Dehlin [02:17:02] So when the predictions or the prophecies about the date of the beginning of the second coming aren't fulfilled, then in. In your case, it just wasn't discussed.
Emma [02:17:12] Yeah, it wasn't discussed post mission, which we'll just kind of skip over for the next part. There was a day. It was like, last year, my dad called me on the phone. I don't remember what was happening, but he was like, you need to drop out of school, See if you can get your tuition back, quit your job, come home. It's ending tomorrow.
Emma [02:17:34] And I was still, like, in the phase of sort of trusting them, but having my doubts. And I was like, I Don't think I'm gonna do that. But he, like, called all of my siblings and was like, you all need to come to Colorado today. And luckily most of my siblings are smart enough that none of them actually did that. But he, like, tried, and I'm like the only single child at the moment, but he was like, you need to drop out of school now. And I was like, I'm not doing that. And so it's still a fear. Like, he still thinks it's ending soon.
John Dehlin [02:18:05] Yeah, because, like, if you put this on a spectrum, there's a type of this belief that's just very mainstream Mormons just like, oh, Jesus will come sometime soon and there'll be an ending at some point and we need to be prepared and have a little food storage and like, and that's benign. And then you go one step, right? And it's like, oh, no, we got to take this more seriously. And, and, and you just. There are some people, there are many Mormons for whom these beliefs are completely benign and innocuous and non problematic. But it's a pathway that is all too frequently, that all too frequently leads people to extremism that actually can be surprisingly common. And in your case, I guess you're trying to say highly distressing and damaging and problematic for your family and for. And for you.
Emma [02:18:57] Yeah, I mean, I can probably talk about this more during the mission experience, but it was very difficult for me to make life decisions because, like, why? Why would you make life decisions? And like, my parents have lost so much money in the stock market because anytime they, like, the market would slightly go down, they thought it was a sign of the crashing. So they're like, let's pull everything out because we will need our cash. But everyone knows if the market goes down, you just wait for it to go back up. But like, that's the mentality. And so, you know, they've lost so much money from the stock market.
Emma [02:19:35] All of their retirement has gone into this building. I know it's millions of dollars. They won't give us an exact number of how much they're spending, but like all of their retirement. My dad has diabetes and his feet, feet are falling apart. But he's like working long hours in the mountains and can barely walk now. And we've all, all of my siblings were worried, like, hey, your health's declining. Maybe take a break from building. But it's having big ripple effects on his health.
John Dehlin [02:20:04] And that's when I've talked to people whose parents got in to kind of the prepper mentality. It's just always been the financial catastrophes, the stress, the waste of time and money, spending your life, your retirement, your time preparing for a day that never comes and hasn't come for 2,000 years and probably is never going to come.
Emma [02:20:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:20:28] And that there's real harm in that.
Emma [02:20:30] No, absolutely. And I think that, I mean, I just think about all the things that my parents could have done or, you know, if we weren't worried about this, what would have our home life looked like? I think there was a lot of missed opportunities and we'll continue to have missed opportunities because the building's not done yet. So they will continue to spend all their time and money on it until it's done. And then when it doesn't work out, you know, what's next?
John Dehlin [02:21:01] Well, this is part one has been really powerful. Any other stories you want to tell?
Emma [02:21:04] That's all.
Wrap-Up and Preview of Part Two
John Dehlin [02:21:05] Okay. Okay. So this, this will conclude part one of our really fascinating three part series with Emma. Emma, thank you so much for being willing to share what it's like to grow up in a Mormon prepper home and the kind of good, and it sounds like most, you know, good and harmful aspects of that upbringing. Thank you, Tara. Thank you for being a part of it.
John Dehlin [02:21:30] Yeah. And what we're going to do now is we're going to, we're going to break and then come back right immediately. If you're watching the live stream, you'll just come back tomorrow for part two. If you're, you know, listening or viewing after the live stream, you'll just jump right to part two on YouTube or in the podcast or wherever Spotify, wherever you consume the content. And we're going to hear about Emma's mission to the Philippines where in, in Mormon, you know, missions to developing countries like Latin America and in this case the Philippines, really problematic fraudulent corporate, fraudulent baptismal practices and kind of business corporate policies are enacted to manipulate and coerce poor, impoverished people in developing countries to get baptized.
John Dehlin [02:22:20] And then missionaries kind of engaging in really problematic and even abusive practices and mission presidents and area presidents encouraging. And this is what happened in my mission in Guatemala from 88 to 90. It happened in your mission. We're going to dive deep into a Filipino mission. Yeah, that'll be part two and then we'll come back for part three where we talk about your faith journey after your mission. So that's what's in store. Thanks, Emma.
Carah Burrell [02:22:50] You're welcome.
John Dehlin [02:22:51] Thanks so much. Thanks again, Carah. All right, and we'll see you guys all again. Come right back for part part two. Thanks so much for your support and we'll see very soon for part two of this interview with Emma. Thanks, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Join John and Carah as they discuss with Emma what it was like to grow up in a “Mormon Prepper” household.
Since the founding of Mormonism, there has been a core belief in the imminent Second Coming of Jesus Christ (thus the “Latter-day” portion of the Church’s official name). But over the past few decades, there has been an increasing trend towards “end times preparedness.” Ultra-orthodox Mormons sell their assets, move to rural areas, attend “Prepper” conferences (like “Preparing a People”), build fortresses, deny healthcare and education to their children, and stockpile food/weapons/ammunition, etc.
This movement is benign for a few but, for many, it leads to extreme behavior, divided families, financial ruin, a host of charlatan “prophets” who prey on this mentality (e.g., Julie Rowe), and, in some cases, murder (e.g., Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow story).
Show Notes:
- Educated: A Memoir by Tara Westover
- “Tara Westover, Author of Educated: A Memoir” on Mormon Stories
- “Ezra Taft Benson and the Making of the Mormon Right” with Matt Harris on Mormon Stories
Part 1
Part 2 - “The Mormon Influences on Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow” on Mormon Stories
- Visions of Glory: One Man’s Astonishing Account of the Last Days by John Pontius
- Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie
- Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith by Bruce R. McConkie
- “Is the Mormon Church in Decline? An Insider Report” on Mormon Stories
- “Rodney Meldrum: Founder of the Book of Mormon Heartland Model” on Mormon Stories
- “Rodney Meldrum and the Book of Mormon Heartland Model” on Mormon Stories
- Saturday’s Warrior
- “Examining Mormon Mind Control with Luna Lindsey Corbden” on Mormon Stories
- “Entrata founder who accused ‘Jews’ of Covid-19 vaccine conspiracy steps down from software company’s board,” by Bryan Schott, Salt Lake Tribune, January 4, 2020
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One Response
I just finished the first part and wanted to mention a few things. John Pontius’ family, consisting of his two sisters, brother, and mom and dad lived in our ward for many years and John would have visited so I may have met him.
In GC of 1970, ETB recommended 4 books for all Church members and one was “None Dare Call It Conspiracy” by Bircher, Gary Allen. It talked in detail about the Jewish–Illuminati conspiracy begun in May 1, 1776, which would someday rule the world. ETB also thought that the conspiracy was the Gadianton Robbers. Cleon Skousen wrote a similar book. Benson’s son Reid, was a leader in the Birch Society. I was a chapter leader holding meetings with both current and past bishops.
When I was a member of AVOW of Rigby, Idaho, whenever Eyring spoke there was talk of secret codes and sayings about the gathering.
Another family and I researched tents and drove around our area in the Rocky Mountains looking for sufficient places to survive.
People in our region continually think of last days and I have been inside fallout shelters that I have helped the owners build. But our county has no building codes.
Today’s phrase, “The deep state”, used by Trump followers is a continuation of the Illuminati and it involves vaccine chips, George Soros, and Black Lives Matter. On the edge of this Q-ANON scare is the rise of hate groups and the right-wing militias.
An EMP is a blast thousands of miles about the earth and all non-hardened electronics or things not put in a Faraday cage will cease to work. The grid will go down, cars made after 19 60 or so won’t run and supposedly a nation will return to the dark ages.
In the ward here, a young couple was exed some 10 years ago for mailing Snuffer material stressing Jesus to all members’ mailboxes.
Polygamy is definitely nothing new to our area. And for many years the ward was split over “follow the spirit” of “Follow the brethren.”
Thanks, John, for having Emma on, and thanks to Emma for helping the world learn of the prepper movement.