Welcome and Episode Introduction

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 1294

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 27, 2020, and we are still under the coronavirus COVID 19 pandemic. So we're practicing social distancing and all the healthy stuff to make sure that we don't do anything to get sick or to spread the virus. But we are super we welcoming to all the people that are at home and who are in some way or another looking for some sort of information or education or even enlightenment. We're happy to be live streaming this Mormon Stories Podcast episode today. We are very, very honored to have with us someone who many of you probably won't know her name.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] Her name is Clarissa Winter. And there's so many things that I think are important about today's episod. If any of you followed our Mormon Stories episode from a week or two ago. We interviewed one of my favorite guests of all time. Her name is Kaylin Orgill, Oregon. And Kaylyn talked a lot about exploring her sexuality as a Mormon teenage girl and the sexual shame that came from that, along with her being a sexually active Mormon teenage girl.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] And this led to, of course, so many feelings of doubt and unworthiness and eventually even suicidality as she also struggled with her faith in a mixed faith marriage. It's an amazing episode. I strongly recommend you go check that out. But we're continuing with that theme today.

Introducing Clarissa Winter and Her Story

John Dehlin [00:02:18] So today we are interviewing Clarissa Winter and I'm just going to give you kind of the preview and then we will dive into Clarissa's story. But Clarissa is the descendant, a direct descendant of Brigham Young on her father's side, and her mother is a convert to the Mormon Church from Guatemala. She was raised in Orderville, Utah as a devout Mormon, but like Kaylyn, discovered her sexuality, masturbation, and eventually became, let's just say, explored sexually during her teen years as a Mormon teenage girl in Orderville. This led to her being labeled as a slut, as a whore, as unworthy. It led to her having bishops interviews, worthiness interviews, which even got to the point of her being threatened twice with excommunication by two different Mormon bishops.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] Of course there was conflict with her parents, as any good Mormon parents are going to be concerned about their health of their kid. We'll be talking about that and what that was like to have to navigate all that as a Mormon teenage girl who also encountered a lot of anxiety and depression, experienced a lot of anxiety and depression as a Mormon teenage girl. This all led to her sort of falling away from the Mormon Church and having, let's just say, late teen, early young adult years, trying to find herself.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] And so the theme of today's episode really is rising strong, you know, after being judged as an unworthy Mormon teenage girl with a lot of themes around sexuality, slut shaming and that sort of thing. And there's probably a strong theme around sexual empowerment and owning and embracing your sexuality as well.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] So it's, it's a really important set of topics. We've covered young male Mormon sexuality extensively on Mormon stories, but not teenage female sexuality. So that's going to be a main theme for today. I'll also mention that Clarissa is a model and she is a big fan of scary movies. She's kind of obsessed with scary movies, specifically 80s scary movies. And she does a lot of scary movie themed boudoir shoots. And you can find her Instagram account at Callme Mrs. Krueger. So she has a fascination and she follows Freddy Krueger from the Nightmare on Elm Street. And if you end up Facebooking her or Instagramming her, you will see some fascinating art photography that is done in the style of sort of modeling, but also boudoir, but also scary movies.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] And it's interesting stuff. So anyway, that's what you are in store for today. And without any further ado, Clarissa Winter, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Clarissa Winter [00:05:29] Hi. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] Yeah, it's so good to have you. Anything you want to correct about the introduction?

Clarissa Winter [00:05:35] Nope. I think. I think that's good.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Did I get it okay?

Clarissa Winter [00:05:37] Yeah, you got it perfect.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Okay. So one of the things I like to do is to begin by having you state at the beginning what your intentions are. Whenever someone speaks authentically and candidly about their life experiences, orthodox and believing Mormons get really scared and nervous. It's like, oh, you're trying to trash the church. You're trying to destroy the church. You're trying to take people's faith away. You're trying to trash what, what we love. Take people out of the church, whatever it is. And I want to give you a chance just at the outset to state why you are doing this interview and to dispel any perceptions of. Of why you're not doing this interview.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:17] So my main hope and goal in all of this is to really help people, whether it's, if you are Mormon, whether you're struggling with the faith or you are ex Mormon. I feel like my story, I feel like a lot of people might be able to relate to my story.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:38] So I really hope I can help Whoever is struggling, like find confidence and also become at peace and know that everything's going to be okay. And it is okay. And I hope if any parents who are Mormon that are struggling with a child that is questioning the church or not even just questioning, but they might be falling away or struggling with anything, I hope that I can help those parents really be there and love their child and know that everything is going to be okay and just have that faith and understanding. I just really want everything to be okay and I hope people can get to that point.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] And for me, I just want to add what I love about this is there's a segment of our population, you know, we celebrate the Mormon kids that go on the missions, that graduate from seminary, they get their young women's medallions or their Eagle Scouts that do all the right things. And then there's this category of human or Mormon kid that like falls away or is viewed as bad or fallen or dangerous and they kind of fall off and they're kind of, if they come back to the church, they're celebrated. But if they don't come back to the church, they're kind of forgotten and always remembered as kind of bad kids.

Clarissa Winter [00:07:56] Exactly, yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] And what I love about your story and is that it's a story of rising strong and finding your health and your healing and happiness after you leave the church. And that's not to say that we're trying to get people to leave the church, but certainly we want people to have hope that if it's their own kid or themselves, that coming back to Mormonism and being an orthodox Mormon isn't the only path to health and healing. Some people need maybe to find health and healing outside of the church. Is that.

Clarissa Winter [00:08:31] Yes, that is absolutely true. I also just want to say I am actually like, I'm absolutely not trying to get anyone to leave the church. I feel like the church is really good for a lot of people and I think that they should stay in it.

Clarissa Winter [00:08:43] I do. I hope that they can be a little bit open minded if they're not usually to this. But yeah, just be maybe open minded to the possibility that some people are meant to not be in the church.

Clarissa Winter [00:08:55] But I really, I still think that the church does a lot of good, helps a lot of people. My family, my whole family is still active in the church. I love my family, they're good people. So yeah, I think I just want to just share what it's, hopefully just give an understanding of what it's like leaving and just the struggles, the trauma, the trials I went through so that I just would love to prevent that happening to anyone or at least maybe get. Get like a.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:28] What's it called, A team. Just support for people. Yeah, maybe just support the person. Just love them. Just understand that this is their life, whether they leave the church or not. They might come back, they might stay. I think it's also okay to question the faith. I think that can even make your testimony a lot stronger in the church.

Family Background and Growing Up in Orderville

John Dehlin [00:09:47] Well, let's dive in. So talk about your parents. Talk about your dad coming from Brigham Young and your mom being a Guatemalan convert.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:54] And let's.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] Let's. Let's dive into your.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:56] Yeah, I love my parents so much. I miss them. My. My dad, he is so. My grandma, which is my dad's mother, is a Young. So I come from Brigham Young, and I believe it's his son, Brigham Young Jr. That I come from. I'm correct.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] And you said you share that with Steve Young, right?

Clarissa Winter [00:10:15] Yeah, we found out. Yes, we found out. Yeah. Steve Young is my cousin from the same sun. So he grew up in Utah, basically grew up, like, in Orderville, around that area. He was called on to serve a mission in Santa Monica, California, or in la. I don't know specifically. My mom was raised in Guatemala. She's Guatemalan. She didn't move to the United States until she was 21 or 22, where she has a really. She has a very beautiful story. It gives me a lot of. Makes me very sad to think about it. Makes me very emotional how strong she was.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] Any highlights?

Clarissa Winter [00:11:01] Yeah, like, her and her sister moved. They like, you know, you're moving to a whole new country not knowing anybody. Maybe a few family members that live there. But, you know, it's a whole nother language, which I think she already knew English pretty well. But she started out as, like, I believe she was doing. Was made for people in Beverly Hills, like, doing that type of work. And I think they treated her really bad, most of them. And so just. I don't. Yeah, just. It's gotta be so tough. I think she wanted to go home so much.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] She's an immigrant, right? I mean, she's an immigrant.

Clarissa Winter [00:11:35] Yeah, she was. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:37] It's an important theme in the United States today.

Clarissa Winter [00:11:40] And I like. Yeah, I just have so much compassion and understanding and love because of my mom and what she went through. So she. Her brother, when she moved, I believe he got recently converted to the church and he wanted to send the missionaries over to my mom and her sister who just moved to the United States. And so they came.

Clarissa Winter [00:12:05] One of the missionaries was my dad, and he was the one who baptized her. She ended up in California. Yeah, in California. Santa Monica, I believe. Pretty sure. Okay. So he. She ended up joining the church. Her sister didn't.

Clarissa Winter [00:12:23] My dad. Like, I think they just got an interest in each other. So after his mission, he went back home to Orderville, and then he moved to California and started to date her. Now that he was out of a mission, he could actually date her and explore that option. And they ended up getting married. They got sealed in the Santa Monica Temple, and then they had me.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] Okay, so you were born what year?

Clarissa Winter [00:12:48] I was born. 91.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Okay, 91. And so what was your Mormon childhood and early teenage years like?

Clarissa Winter [00:12:56] So I grew up. Grew up in Orderville. I was born in Santa Monica, but raised in Orderville.

John Dehlin [00:13:03] Describe Orderville.

Clarissa Winter [00:13:06] So I hated it growing up because of how small the community is and how it's one of those towns. Like, everyone's in your business. There's a lot of good things that come from it, too. Like, the community is very, very beautiful. Like, whenever.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Where's it located?

Clarissa Winter [00:13:21] Oh, so it's on the east side of Zion. It's kind of by Southern Utah.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Southern Utah, Like Kanab.

Clarissa Winter [00:13:26] Yeah. Around, like, it's like an hour and a half from St. George, an hour from Cedar. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] And was it. Wasn't it created as, like, an experiment on the united Order and, you know, kind of early Joseph economic principles?

Clarissa Winter [00:13:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] Okay.

Clarissa Winter [00:13:41] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:13:42] I remember learning about it as a kid. We go to, like, we take class trips to go to that little museum that they have there. But I. They were just using. As a kid, it was really boring to pay attention to, especially with add. Like, I can't. When they use hard words or like, words that don't sound entertaining, I would kind of zone out. So I don't know the whole history on Orderville. Please forgive me.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] That's fine. But it was a conservative Mormon town. And you didn't love it?

Clarissa Winter [00:14:10] I didn't love it, no. I liked. I have a lot of good memories of being there. Like, I have a lot of sentimental type memories, but. And it's very beautiful, Very beautiful, surrounded with mountains. I think the part I struggled with was just because of. It's less than 400 people that live there. I think the population's about 350 to 400.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] What?

Clarissa Winter [00:14:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] How many kids are in your high school?

Clarissa Winter [00:14:32] So my graduating class had 27.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] What?

Clarissa Winter [00:14:34] And that included, I think, six different towns altogether. So it's the whole valley oh my goodness.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] That's teeny.

Clarissa Winter [00:14:41] Yep. So we had Glendale, Mount Carmel, Alton, Cedar Mountain, Mount Carmel Junction. Yeah. I think that we all just.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] Okay.

Clarissa Winter [00:14:50] Yep. We had like the biggest class I think when I graduated or my senior year.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Okay. So small. What else did you not love about

Clarissa Winter [00:15:03] was really hard? Being raised Mormon in a small community. I think any teeny tiny town, whatever religion it is, it's going to become difficult. I didn't like how a lot of people were. They can be very close minded, come across very, you know, judgmental. I'm not trying to bash them. I'm just being like realistic and how it is like so is hard. Yeah, it was really just. I think that's the part I hated about it is like when I. Because I struggled with friends off and on growing up. So when I would lose a friend. You don't really have a lot of kids to choose from. You all were in one like one elementary school class. There wasn't, you know, there was one first grade, one second grade, one third grade. There wasn't multiple like in the city. So we just all went together.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] So like one first grade teacher.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] Really?

Clarissa Winter [00:15:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] That's teeny.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:56] Just one teacher.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] Oh, wow. Okay.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] So you all grew up together as a cohort.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:01] Yeah, yeah. So. And then getting older, becoming a teenager, that's when it became very difficult because you go through those teenage experiences, the hormones, the struggles, and everybody knows about it, everybody will find out about it. You know, they'll take things and even make it a bigger deal, twist it, you know, I know a lot of people went through that, like those experiences. So it can become very tough.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] How many, how many wards are in. Were in Orderville? There were two wards.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:34] There is two words.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] There's two words.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:36] First and second word.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] Okay. And I have to ask this, like as the, as the daughter of an immigrant. And I don't know if you identify as a Latina, but people might identify you as a Latina. Was. Was that ever an issue? Did people notice that? And, and did you experience any positive or negative? Sort of both.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:56] Both.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] Like even layman, I. Some might have referred a thought of as a Lamanite or you might have thought of yourself that way. So talk about that if it's so an issue.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:04] Yeah, it was. I think there's a lot because like a lot of people were very like, you know, loved my mom and like me. So it wasn't really. I didn't feel like it was. It wasn't racism ever. That's not. You didn't Feel I didn't, but I felt different because I was the only Hispanic girl in my class.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:24] Everyone else was Caucasian. I think every now and then there was like a kid that would like moved into town for a year or two or just like a few semesters but then they would leave. So I was definitely during elementary I was definitely like one of the only kids that was of a like mixed nationality. So I think when we were little like kids definitely pointed it out. They weren't doing that to be rude. They would just point it out like, you know, like that I'm darker.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:55] So it was, I don't know, I think it kind of, it really hurt my self confidence and self esteem and they, I don't think they were ever trying to, but it just, it did. And I remember hating my skin color and I remember wanting to be white.

Clarissa Winter [00:18:10] My siblings turned out lighter than me and I remember being so jealous of that. Even though they would remind me like, you know, you're beautiful. We wish we were tan or whatever. But I remember telling my mom I wish I wasn't Guatemalan, I wish I was white. And I remember that hurting her and I.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] What'd she say?

Clarissa Winter [00:18:27] She told me that it hurt. That hurts when you say that. And, but I didn't understand like I was little so I didn't understand what that meant to my mom. Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] And then let me, let me ask you this. There's, there's obviously the teachings in the Book of Mormon about dark skinned laymanites and, and the curse and all that did, did, did that. Is that something that as a child or even a young teenage girl that came into your mind at all?

Clarissa Winter [00:18:54] I never learned about that. How, just didn't, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] I mean, I guess that's good, right?

Clarissa Winter [00:19:00] I, I mean yes and no. I would have liked to have learned about it. I didn't find out about the whole blacks not being able to hold the priesthood or be sealed to their families until I was 15 years old and I found out from a girl I was trying to be a good missionary and she was struggling with things in her home and I was trying to convert her. I was going to Kanab High at this time and I was trying to tell her about my church and how I think it would be really helpful for her and how it's helped me. And she's like, well I've thought about it before but I just can't get over the whole blacks not being approved of certain things.

Clarissa Winter [00:19:45] I'm like, that's not true of Course they were. She's like, no. Like, they couldn't do. I'm like, nuh. Like, I defended my church. Was like, no way. My church would never do that. Like, I. No, my church is the most loving church. It's the only true church. They would never do that. And she just was so, like, very adamant about it. Like, so she wasn't being me. She was just, like, being. And I'm, like, getting defensive and trying to convince her otherwise. And then I went home and I asked my mom about it, and she's like, yeah, yeah, that's true. I'm just like, what?

Clarissa Winter [00:20:18] And then I. She didn't tell me why. I didn't ask why. I don't think. But I remember just coming to peace with it of like, oh, there was. There must be a good reason. I don't think it's like that. That's not what happened. I just kind of swept it under the rug and just was like, no, that. No, that didn't happen. I'm sure. Maybe there's just, like, a misunderstanding or something. Yeah. And then I didn't really learn about it until, like, a few years ago, like, actually learn about it.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] Right.

Clarissa Winter [00:20:45] It was hard to swallow.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Right. So one of the things. So in terms of your Mormon childhood and early teenage years, there's the, you know, there's primary. There's the primary songs. There's going to church. There's. There's. Sometimes there's family prayer and scripture study. To what extent, let's just say up until 13, did you have the typical Mormon upbringing? And what did the church mean to you as a child and preteen?

Deep Faith and Early Childhood in the Church

Clarissa Winter [00:21:12] The church meant everything to me. It was what I was raised in. It's all I knew. I loved it. I believed in it so much. Yeah. My whole life, I loved it. I never had any doubts. I never had any concerns. I never questioned it. I loved the church. Through that and how much I believed in it and loved the church came a lot of fears of the celestial kingdom being my main goal, of where I'm going to end up when I die. And I just. I remember as a kid, there was a time where I just became very scared, very. Of every little. Any little mistake, I would make any little mistake, and that God was watching me. And I would get, like, a mark, like a bad mark. Because I remember learning in a lesson when I was a kid in. What's it called?

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Primary.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:13] Primary.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:14] Sorry, how? Like, I remember the teacher explaining it to us. This teacher ended up becoming one of my bishops in the future. And he said, every time you do something bad, God puts, like, a mark on. On a list, and he just keeps putting them. But every time you repent for it, he erases it.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:34] And I don't think I ever learned about the good marks. I think it was only the bad marks that I like. I never learned to embrace the good things that I. Or concentrate on the good things that I do that God would be proud of.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:47] So I was terrified when I found out about the second coming, how it's gonna happen. I was. I freaked out. I Especially someone having anxiety. Like I had. I developed anxiety at a very young age, depression at a very young age. So I get paranoid. I panic. Learning about the second coming and when it's gonna happen, Am I gonna survive? Like, I did this bad thing yesterday, or I lied to my mom yesterday. Am I gonna survive? No, I'm not like, God, God's gonna kill me when he comes. You know, all those things.

Clarissa Winter [00:23:20] And I learned how to. Like, I just naturally started judging other people and deciding where they would go. Like, I just see someone on the streets and how they were dressed or someone. One of my friend's mom, like, she wasn't Mormon, and she was this way in a negative way. And I'm like, oh, she's not gonna go to the celestial kingdom. She's gonna go to the telestral kingdom. Not the. Not the terrestrial, because she's not evil, but the telestral. And I had that mindset for a really long time.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] How do you have a sense for how that may have affected you as a. As a. As a teen and. Yeah, how. How does that affect you?

Clarissa Winter [00:24:06] It was very. It was very hard. It's a lot of pressure because as I got older, I started having hormones. I started. I did learn, like, at a young age, I think. Like, I, you know, I became curious about my body, as any child does. And then as I got older, I figured out how to masturbate. I figured out all these things that you're not supposed to do. Like, you learn about it eventually in church. You're not supposed to touch yourself, masturbate.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] So. So our last guest talk about this, how she was kind of doing that before she even learned what it was. How did it. How did it develop for you?

Early Shame and Sexual Curiosity as a Child

Clarissa Winter [00:24:48] I can't really remember. I knew it was bad. I don't really know how I knew it was bad, but I knew it was. It wasn't like it was something you need to keep secret or you need to not tell anyone about or no one should catch you doing this, you know, like, it was a very. It wasn't a good thing. It was very private. And then I just, I don't know, I remember, like, I think my mom caught me a few times, or like not caught me fully, but like, knew what I was doing and she would remind me, like, we're not supposed to do that. Like that's a, you know, a bad thing. So. And, But I just, like, I just naturally like, would do this a lot. Like is something I desired. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] Starting at what age do you think?

Clarissa Winter [00:25:37] Really young, maybe second or third grade.

John Dehlin [00:25:42] So really early. Okay. But maybe normal.

Clarissa Winter [00:25:44] It was, yeah, I think it was normal. Like, I mean, I've talked to a lot of other people, like just random friends. And they started like around that age too, or younger. You know, just naturally started exploring and feeling, you know, their body and. Yeah, so I, I knew eventually, like in young women's and in Sunday school, I learned that you're definitely not supposed to do that and never lose your virginity. Never.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:14] That is very sacred. That is something like, you know, premarital sex is basically like the next level to murder. Like, it's very much frowned upon. And we had, you know, we would randomly have many lessons about what we shouldn't do. We should never masturbate, we should never get too close to a guy or, you know, we should never be gay, all those things. And so it was really hard learning all these things and seeing how strong these other young women were and how they seemed to not be having. Just from what I gathered, I don't know, but like, they seemed very okay and they weren't struggling with these things.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:58] And I was like, oh my gosh, something's wrong with me. How am I so bad? Like, what's wrong with me? Like, something is really wrong with me. I don't know what happened, but.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] So then by what age are you starting to feel like there's something wrong with you, that you're bad?

Clarissa Winter [00:27:12] Probably fifth grade.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] I think that's so early

Clarissa Winter [00:27:18] and especially when I became a young woman, around 11 or 12. Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:27:29] I mean those are formative years and all those behaviors, including masturbation, are more normal than not normal. We have this idea that women don't masturbate as much as men, and that may slightly be true, but I think it's way more common than we think. I think female sexuality is just viewed as is. It's ignored, it's non existent within Mormonism. But, but we talk, we, we obsess about male sexuality yeah, but you're basically just doing very normal things.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:58] Yeah, but I didn't know it was normal.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] But from fifth grade, you're being told you're bad and dirty and feeling worthy.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:05] Yeah, Just feeling that. I also really. Fifth grade was when I first had my thoughts of wanting to die. My first suicidal thoughts. I was going through a lot as a kid during that time. I had a very nasty teacher.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:21] She was not kind to me. I just felt very alone during this time. I didn't have a lot of friends. I did, but I still felt like they weren't my close friends. I struggled. I was going through a lot in fifth grade. Very depressed. I didn't understand the feeling that I was feeling very sad, very alone.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:44] I was, like, okay with dying. Like, I kind of wanted to die. Like, it became. And I didn't understand why I was feeling this way. And I eventually told my mom how I was feeling, and she listened to me and she tried to help me the best that she could.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:01] I'm surprised I even told my mom because I didn't know if I was supposed to tell anyone. Like, I'd, like, do I tell anyone that I'm feeling like this? Like, I don't. No. Like, I don't know what's going on.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:10] And then, you know, it would get better over the years. In sixth grade, I had this awesome teacher. Complete opposite of my fifth grade teacher. He was so cool, Mr. Balajit. He was just. Oh, he changed my life. I don't even understand if he knows what he did.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] How. How did he do it?

Clarissa Winter [00:29:26] Going from one teacher that was. A lot of people were putting me down in this process, but she was always concentrating on all the bad things I was doing and never congratulated me on anything. And I was always getting in trouble. I was always getting in trouble for anything. Whether. And I also had ADD growing up, which we didn't know this at the time, but I had a hard time paying attention. So a lot of teachers would get mad at me, but I couldn't help it. Like, it was hard. So with him, I remember, like, him being just super awesome the first day.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:56] And eventually, like, I messed up on an assignment or something or. And he came to tell me, like, you messed up on this? And I remember saying, like, immediately, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, and getting ready for him to, like, get mad at me. And he was like, oh, it's okay. And he walked. I'm like, what? It's okay. What? You know, it's just, like, his calmness and how he just. He was nice and he was understanding. He was very understanding. And I felt at peace in his class. And whenever I felt like whenever he did get after kids, he was. It was in a very calm way because I got in trouble here and there.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:31] But like, he didn't make me feel bad about myself. You know, he just told me what I did wrong or, you know, and how I can fix it. And I was like, weird. Okay, this is weird.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] So that sounds positive.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:44] It was very positive. Yeah.

Adolescence, Friendships, and Growing Tensions

John Dehlin [00:30:46] So how did things develop? When did things get. Start getting rough?

Clarissa Winter [00:30:55] I was 13 or 14 when I had my first boyfriend. I kissed him a lot. That was like as far as it got. But I kept it a secret from my mom. And he wasn't Mormon, but I didn't care. I thought, like, he was at this time. I just, I had a lot of friends. I developed. I mean, I grew a lot of friends around this time, which was awesome. I had so many friends. And they were also like the kids that were like frowned upon. They were the bad kids, you know, they were. They swore. They had said a lot of swear words.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Were they all Mormons still?

Clarissa Winter [00:31:34] No, These kids were not Mormon. These kids I ended up becoming friends with.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] Why were you friends with the non Mormons?

Clarissa Winter [00:31:39] I don't know. They accepted me. I don't know. I just became. I started dating this one boy. He was the sweetest, like boyfriend to have. Like my first boyfriend. So sweet. So, so sweet. Respected me. So, so much respect.

Clarissa Winter [00:31:55] And he had a lot of friends. Well, he wasn't Mormon. And then he had a lot of friends that weren't Mormon. And I just ended up hanging out with them and I liked how not judgmental they were. They were just cool and I fit in and I had friends and they understood me. I also think I, you know, also being Mormon, I did come across as judgmental, I'm sure a lot of times.

Clarissa Winter [00:32:18] But I so liked them. Ended up getting transferred to Kanab Middle School. And it just became like, it became an issue with a lot of people that I was hanging out with. These kids that wore skater shoes or like black clothing, like emo type style. And I didn't see anything wrong with it, though. I thought it was cool. Like, I thought I liked them. They were all nice, cool kids.

Clarissa Winter [00:32:45] But then over time, I started getting influenced by people that advised me not to hang out with these kids. And I didn't understand why they were bad. Like they didn't do anything that I thought. Like they said swear words, which I was like Uncomfortable with. But they didn't know that. That's, like, bad.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:06] You should not be around people that use swear words. It just makes them like the Holy Ghost just leaves. And so. But yeah, over time, just people started getting into my head and I started trying to hang out with more of the Mormon kids. I ended up breaking with my. Breaking up with that boyfriend. And I even told him he's not Mormon. That's why I'm breaking up with you. Like, because it became real to me. Like, I'm like, okay, so I do. Because he, like, we would talk about, like, he wants to marry me one day, all those cute things. And we're 14, you know, we don't have anything.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:38] But I was like, oh, my gosh, she can't take me to the temple. I'm not gonna, like, God's gonna get mad at me. Like. And I told him, like, it's because you're not Mormon. Realize how messed up that is now?

John Dehlin [00:33:52] Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:54] And I'm sorry. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] Well, I mean, you're stuck in this sort of reality of you've got this belief system, and the belief system says, stick around Mormons. Stick around righteous people. Swearing's bad. You know, there's a whole bunch of bad things. So stick around the good Mormon kids. Stay. Follow the Mormon standards and you're going to be safe. But what, what it sounds like what you found is a lot of fear and judgment and harshness in the lived Mormon experience. And you found a lot more acceptance and kindness and love in the non Mormon experience. And so you must have felt really torn between. Between those two worlds, which is really natural.

Clarissa Winter [00:34:37] Yeah. Because I loved my friends. I actually like. Like, I loved them. I thought they were. They were so funny. And they would also, like, tell me things. For instance, I had a lot of. I mean, I got the birds and the bees talk, you know, as a kid, and then that was it. I never got, like, a sex talk, which I think. I think is very normal for a lot of kids. They don't get the Mormon kids. They don't get the sex talk and. Because, you know, if you just don't talk about it, it will never happen.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] It won't happen. Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:35:07] Yeah. And a lot of people really believe this. Like, I think my parents really believed this. And I don't judge them for it. Like, I understand. Like, that's, you know, I get it now, but I had a lot of questions. Like, I would hear things at school or on TV or things like that, and I would go ask my mom, you know, like, what does this mean? And her reaction was, where did you learn that? You know, like, would get very upset, and I would.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Asking about what types of things?

Clarissa Winter [00:35:32] Just. I learned the word humping. I had no idea what that meant. But I learned that you do it in sex. I didn't even know how you had sex. I didn't even know. This might be, like, tmi, but, like, I didn't even know I had, like, a hole in my vagina. I thought I only had, like, a pee hole. I didn't know I had an other area. Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] No, let's be honest.

Clarissa Winter [00:35:57] So I didn't know how, like, sex worked. I didn't know how that. I knew it was naughty getting naked. And it creates babies, but I didn't know how it created babies. Like, because I hadn't been, like, told about it since I was a kid. And I forgot about, like, every little detail I was told as a kid. And when I remember just being, like, a teenager and trying out a tampon for this time, the first time, my sister was helping me out with it from the other. Like, she. I was in the bathroom, and she was waiting outside, and I was trying to stick it up my pee hole. I didn't know I had another hole. And I was 15 at this time. 14. 15. And so I never figured it out until later.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] So your mom didn't, like, say, here's how to use a tampon?

Clarissa Winter [00:36:43] No, she didn't teach me. She. I think she. No, yeah, she didn't teach me. We just used pads. I think she thought I shouldn't since I was still a virgin. Which I understand where. Like, I know that might sound crazy or weird for other people, but it makes sense now. Like, it makes sense. Like, looking back, I'm like. I totally get it. Like, she.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:08] You know, she didn't. She was doing the best she could. She didn't know what to do. Of course she didn't know what to do. And. Yeah, so I just. Yeah. So I remember just, like, learning things and asking her questions, and she would never answer me. She would just get mad that I learned that or why I was asking it.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:31] And then she. I think she just needed to know where I found out, and I would never tell her. Like, I wasn't gonna. And I lied a lot to my parents. I lied a lot.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] And let's talk about that. Cause I've had to deal with that as a parent. Like, I'm still very Mormon. I'm still very patriarchal. I don't like to think of myself that way, but I try not to be that way, but I'm still very Mormon. And so even after we stopped believing the church, we would be very controlling or rules oriented with our K.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] I was always policing my, you know, one of my child's sexuality. And I'm not saying this in a proud way, but. But what you do is you teach your kids to lie. Because if you're always getting angry, if you're always trying to control them, if. If there's this punishment thing that's always there, then. Then kids learn to lie because they don't feel safe.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] And because they don't, they don't want to be controlled. They want to figure things out for themselves. And so in some ways, I've learned as a parent that I taught my kids to lie.

Clarissa Winter [00:38:36] Yeah, I have. Yeah. Not intentionally. Like, you're not. Of course you're telling them, well, lying is bad. You're taught that, like, especially in the, you know, in the church take over, you should never lie. Like, I mean, any religion, you shouldn't. They teach you not to lie, but you become so scared and frightened of what's gonna happen.

Clarissa Winter [00:38:52] People's reactions, like, the way that they sometimes may ask questions like, you want to try coffee? You know, is like, never mind. No, I don't. I'm not gonna tell you. You know, and I think we. Specifically talking to Mormon parents, I think I understand. Like, they don't under. Like, they may not know what they are doing when they shut their kid down for having a question, make them feel bad for having a question.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:21] And I know that they're not trying to make them feel bad. They're not. They're just trying to. That's their way of helping them, like, realize that that's a bad thing that they're wanting to do or asking about or wanting to try.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:32] And it just comes across as, like, punishment and shame. And so they therefore, like, I didn't go to my parents for a lot of questions. I didn't go to a lot of my church leaders for any questions. I went to kids that weren't Mormon that would tell me the answers.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:48] They would tell me the truth. Sometimes. It wasn't always the best way I should have found out or the how I found out, you know, but they didn't judge me or laugh at me. They made fun of me for not knowing what that was. Like, how do you not know what that is? I'm like, well, I live under a rock. That's why.

Clarissa Winter [00:40:06] So I think, yeah. So I just Wouldn't go to people that would make me feel bad about it. And I also developed a lot of trust issues with that because I didn't know how to trust over time, which I'll get into more details later. But whenever I was honest or told the truth or was honest with how I was feeling, I'd get punished a lot with not just my parents, but, like, just people in general. Would I get punished and it didn't make sense. Why would I talk about anything then? Why would I tell anyone anything?

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Right?

Clarissa Winter [00:40:43] And I just. I really hope that I. What I. Any advice I can give on parents that have. That are Mormon, that have kids that have questions, just listen to them. Don't make them feel ashamed. Like, I think it's so normal to have. Kids are curious. They're learning things at school. They're learning things naturally. Like, you know, they have hormones or they see things on the street, and when they ask a question, I really hope that you listen to them and you don't shame them. You don't get defensive and have that negative energy. Like, just listen to them there. It doesn't mean that they're gonna do it. Whatever it is that they're asking. Like, if they say, I want to try coffee, it doesn't mean that they're gonna try coffee.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] Or they might.

Clarissa Winter [00:41:24] They might also. It's okay. They're not. I hope that you. I would hope you make them feel like, if they do try coffee, I would hope that you maybe make. Do it with it or, like, be there with them, you know, and, like, just see what they think and have it be, like, a open, healthy situation. Using just coffee as an example.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Another example is just a kid that might look at porn or a kid that might masturbate. Like, how a parent responds to that can also be formative, right?

Clarissa Winter [00:41:52] Oh, yeah. A big secret my parents didn't know about is I started watching porn at a very young age.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] How.

Clarissa Winter [00:41:58] Just the Internet.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:42:00] I think my grandpa used to watch, like, old Western, the Western channel. And it would randomly have, like, you know, like, girls that were showing their boobs, and I was like. Like, just curious. Like, just like. Like, I want. Like, I know this is a bad thing, but that I'm looking at it, and I don't know why. And then I just became more curious about it. But I didn't go to anyone, ask questions or talk about it, because I. That was. Like, when would that ever go right? Ever? Like, if I can't. Someone's like, I want to know about the body. And how people have sex or body parts and stuff like that.

Discovering Pornography and Masturbation as a Teen

Clarissa Winter [00:42:41] So I would just do it on my own. And I would Google just certain. You know, Like, I would Google things to. Because I wanted to know what it looks like when I get older or. And, yeah, like. And then eventually, over time, I started watching. I found porn videos, and I would watch them.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:00] I was a little bit older, like, in high school, young, like, middle school, high school age. And I would become aroused by it, and I hated myself for it. I hated myself. I was such a bad person. I knew God was watching. I knew the Holy Ghost, like, left me in this moment. And I would feel disgusting. I would feel lonely, and I would try so hard to, like, I wouldn't even. Like, I just go without watching porn. I would just, like, masturbate, you know, and things like that. And just the feeling of, like, something is wrong with me. I'd pray. I promised, like, God, I would never do it again.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:37] Like, please. Like, I will. Please help me. I will never do this again. And two weeks later, I do it again and feel just so something. What am I doing wrong? How come I'm doing, like, what's wrong with me? Why am I creating this? Why can't I control myself? Why does it feel good? You know? Why do I feel horrible, sick to my stomach about this? I was not proud of myself at all. It was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] Is that bringing up emotions for you?

Clarissa Winter [00:44:09] Yeah, because I know. I didn't know it was so normal or natural. I didn't know this was a natural thing to. You know, masturbation was a natural thing. I thought it was just this awful thing, and I thought something was wrong with me because I couldn't control it. Because you hear all these church teachers talking about how to stay strong and you need to stay strong and how other kids are staying strong and using examples of people that stayed strong and then using other examples of people who didn't stay strong and what happened to them and how their life became horrible at this point. But once they started, like, you know, becoming more strong and going back to church and their life became amazing again, and they overcame whatever it is that they were struggling with. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't know what's gonna happen to

John Dehlin [00:45:04] me for a parent that feels like bad things are gonna happen to my kid if they masturbate and look at porn or for anyone just that believes that it's harmful or dangerous for a. For a teenage kid to be looking at that stuff or doing that stuff. What. What Would you say like, like someone could say, well, why couldn't you stop? Why wasn't that bad? Shouldn't you have stopped? Or do you see that differently now in terms of what is or isn't healthy for a developing teenage boy or girl?

Clarissa Winter [00:45:42] I think so. A lot of my life I felt very alone. I did struggle with friends. I did struggle being close to my siblings and my parents or like having that closeness of being comfortable talking to them about anything. So I didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't know how to. I just didn't tell anybody. And I just so being so young, I just did know what to do and just would do it and pray and repent right after.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] And was it a way to self soothe? Was it a way to feel better? Was it just a way to a source of joy in your life? Like, what was it?

Clarissa Winter [00:46:21] It seemed, well, I mean, it seemed nice, but it also was just so unhealthy how much, how hard I was on myself and how much I hated myself. Like, I kind of wanted to die because I was struggling with this curse that I didn't know was a normal thing that like basically every human goes through. Mostly, you know, like, so we're designed for, you know. And so now looking back, like, I feel so bad for that little girl. I just.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] What would you tell her?

Clarissa Winter [00:46:59] It's okay, you're not, you're not evil. God's not mad at you. You're fine. This is normal. I hope that any kid going through this, like, I really hope that we can understand how we might make our kids feel and we don't even know it because they're probably not telling you.

Clarissa Winter [00:47:20] And hopefully me saying they're not telling you isn't a way to go run to them and get something out of them in a bad way. Like just understand that like they're normal kids, they're humans, they're children of God, you know, however you want to look at it, that it's like, don't make them feel so bad about it, like so evil.

Clarissa Winter [00:47:42] I did not. I didn't think I was going to be able to be sealed with my family. I didn't think that God saw anything good I was doing or thought he was only seeing all the bad and he was so disappointed in me. And I was already struggling with anxiety and depression.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:05] So it made it so much worse. So I don't. Yeah, I don't know how, like, I don't know. I don't have the answers of how you talk to your kid about it, like, the healthy way. Like, I don't know that. I just know that, like, my step kids or my nieces, if they ever have any questions, I will talk to them very calm. I will make them feel normal. Like, whatever the question is, not even just about, like, sex. Like, whatever it is. I will never shame them for having any questions. I will never put them down for having telling me something they did, anything.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:45] I will always be there for them. I will always listen to them. I always remind them after they're done talking to me, like, all the good things that they do, like, and then that's it. Like, never bring up anything bad they're doing. But if they want help with the specific thing, I will try to do my best to just be there for them and help them, but also remind them that it's okay. Every person goes through this or something similar to this. And, like, we're gonna do it. We're gonna have fun, we're gonna be happy, we're gonna stay positive and you're a good person, and then that's it. Like, that's all. I'm not gonna ever make them feel bad about anything.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] Thank you so much for being vulnerable about such a sensitive topic. It's beautiful and it's powerful and I think it's going to help a lot of people.

Clarissa Winter [00:49:29] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] It's almost like it seems like it's heresy in even 2020 to say that maybe masturbation isn't harmful. Maybe it's fine, maybe. Maybe it's healthy and maybe it's totally okay. Right?

Clarissa Winter [00:49:50] Oh, my gosh. Where I am now, like, it's a very healthy thing. It's, I think, like, well, sex in general, like, just. I mean, depending on. I want to look at it, but it's very healthy. Like, you're doing what your body is designed to do. You're. There's a lot of things. Like, now I embrace who I am. Like, I embrace that. I, like, I have premarital sex with my boyfriend. I do still masturbate. And I have no shame in my game. Like, I. I don't care. Like, it's just. It makes me. That's not the thing that I think, like, I'm hard on myself for. That's never the thing.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:24] Also, like, just other people that I come across who, like, are sluts or whores, you know, like, which is what I was called as a teenager a lot when I lost my virginity. I support them, I high five them. I make them not feel bad about themselves. I, like, I'm like, oh, it's okay. Everyone does it. You know, like, oh, like I was a. And a slut. You know, like, it's totally fine. Like, I just embrace it and I am proud of it. Like, I don't see that being a thing that defines my character or what makes me good or bad.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:59] And I really, like, I'm actually. I'm finally to that point where I really don't care what people think of me or look, how they look at me. Like, I'm finally to the place where I'm so confident and comfortable and I know who I am and I'm very humble and that. It doesn't affect me at all. It has affected me throughout the years, you know, even.

John Dehlin [00:51:23] And we'll. Yeah, and we'll come back to the ways that you've learned and grown, but let's stick back with that. With that girl who's feeling awful and who's struggling. So talk about how that. That inability to stop masturbating or looking at porn, the. The shame and the judgments that were heaped upon you. How does that affect your development as you start to become, you know, 16, 17 years old? What. What happens?

Clarissa Winter [00:51:49] Well, I got older and I started developing, and my hormones, you know, took a toll. What do you mean? Just I started getting extra curious, wanting to explore that more, but knowing it's bad. But I finally learned about sex, you know, what it is, how it happens. This amazing thing that it's going to be when you get married in the temple, of course, for the first time, like, you're going to have sex with your husband for the first time. But I just was like, I couldn't wait for it to happen. Like, I dreamt about it. It was going to, like, in, like a. In a. I don't know, just really excited for when it happens. Couldn't wait to feel that and experience that with my husband, my companion.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] So you started to be really curious about sex.

Clarissa Winter [00:52:44] Yeah. And then.

John Dehlin [00:52:44] And have a sex drive?

Clarissa Winter [00:52:45] Basically, yeah. Yeah, I did have a sex drive. I. Yeah, I just became curious. I wanted. I really just wanted to know what it was like. I wanted to. I asked a lot of girls who did lose their virginity, you know, in high school or, like, friends that I have that were older who were having sex, like, would ask them so many questions because I was just so curious, and they would tell me, and I thought it was awesome. They talked to me, you know, I didn't judge them. I was like. And then eventually, like, I developed and I would get more attention from guys,

John Dehlin [00:53:23] you Mean your body developed?

Clarissa Winter [00:53:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] Okay.

Clarissa Winter [00:53:24] Yeah. And I think my looks. Like, I started becoming. I don't know, like, I just got, like, guys started to like me. Noticed me and. Which was like, what? This is weird. And so I like the attention. I like that attention of being wanted or being checked out or, you know, that. And I eventually had a boyfriend. Oh, I had a few different boyfriends, but I ended up having a boyfriend who I had my first sexual, like, experience with. Like before sex. Like, we started touching each other, you know, and we wanted to have sex. We had to plan to have sex. I was gonna lose my virginity.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:04] And I was really excited, but so nervous. So nervous because I knew that I'd have to repent after this. I would. All the stuff that's gonna happen, but it's gonna be okay because, like, I remember being in high school, in Kanab High, there was. I was on the dance team, the Lariat's. And there was one girl, she was a senior, and she was so open about her sexuality and how she has sex and she's repented and she talks to her bishop all the time. It's this awesome thing. Like she does, you know, he listens to her and she's good. And I'm like, oh, well, I'll just do what she did, you know, I'll just try it out and then I'm gonna go repent and it's gonna be fine.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:41] And also, just embarrassing story of mine, just to tell you how naive and how innocent I was. I was 15 and we were about. We were in dance team, we were about to perform at a basketball game, and we were all in the bathroom getting ready, and I had my period and I didn't have a pad on me. And I asked, does anyone have a pad to the girls, and they're like, no, but I have a tampon. And here, you can have it. And I'm like, I'm still a virgin. I can't use that. And they all, like, looked at me like, you know what? But these were the girls that had. I knew, had lost their virginity. That's why I said that.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] So in your mind, explain that.

Clarissa Winter [00:55:28] So I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I was just like. I was just telling them, I'm still a virgin, so I can't use it.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] So in your mind. In your mind, you couldn't use a tampon if you were a virgin? If you were a virgin?

Clarissa Winter [00:55:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:40] Where did that come from?

Clarissa Winter [00:55:41] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] So you only used pads up until then?

Clarissa Winter [00:55:44] Yeah. Yeah. I have no idea how, but these poor. I'm so sorry to the girls that I offended. I wasn't being mean. I was just being innocent and just telling them, like, you know, so they're

John Dehlin [00:56:00] offering you a tampon and you're saying, I can't. I'm still a virgin.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:04] Yeah, I realize.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] Okay, that's awesome. No, but I think that's common. I think that's probably more common than we think.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Those girls, they extra hated me. They already hated me, and then they extra.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] Okay, so you were planning on some sort of sexual experience with a boyfriend?

Clarissa Winter [00:56:31] Let me get my chapstick. I have a little bit of cotton meal. Sorry, I'm just gonna get some water.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] No problem. Really quick. I'll just read some of the comments. Noel writes, thank you so much, Clarissa, for being so honest. I'm older than you, but had the same issues growing up. Sad that we all had to go through this, but also comforted to know that I wasn't the only one. Thank you, Noel. Amy writes the shame around all of it. Very burdening and heart wrench. Thank you for sharing your story. And of course, our dear friend Kimberly Anderson writes. So much support and love to Clarissa in this moment of extreme vulnerability. Thank you for your willingness to be so open. Thank you. So lots of people sending you love for being willing to talk about hard things.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:25] Thanks. That's really nice to hear. That makes me feel so happy.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:29] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Yeah.

First Sexual Experiences and Guilt

Clarissa Winter [00:57:33] So what was the question?

John Dehlin [00:57:34] So you were. You were gonna have your first sexual experience? You were planning.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:38] Yes. Yeah. So we were planning this whole how it was gonna happen, like how we were gonna have sex. I ended up breaking up with him because I got so nervous. And then he figured it out why I broke up with him and got back together. And then, long story short, we planned it out and it was gonna happen. And I met up with him at this place that we were gonna do it. And I was so nervous and so excited. Also feeling guilty. Holy cow, was I feeling guilty. But I really wanted to do this. I wanted to just try it out, see how it goes. I didn't tell anybody I was gonna do this. I think I had a friend that lived in Salt Lake that may have told her. So we did it.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] You had sex?

Clarissa Winter [00:58:30] Yeah. Yeah. Did not go how I thought it was gonna go. No one told me it was gonna hurt. Like, you know, like, just little details like that, how it happens. Yeah, I didn't. Like, I didn't know. Preparation for this we did use a condom. He chose to do that.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] Was it his first time?

Clarissa Winter [00:58:54] He. He said, yeah, but, like, I don't know. I don't think so. But he said yes. I don't know. It was just like, I was embarrassed. I didn't know. Like, it was uncomfortable to be naked with another person that was also naked.

Clarissa Winter [00:59:12] Yeah. Then right after I left, he got a phone call from his mom. And we thought that we were gonna get caught or we knew, but he was called home because I guess, like, his grandpa died recently or something like that. And then. So I drove to the grocery store because I wanted to pick up something, and he called me. Like, Right. It was like maybe an hour after it happened. And he called to break up with me.

Clarissa Winter [00:59:41] Oh, man. I'm laughing because it's. And I always try to make it an excuse that his grandpa died. And he just needs time to himself. And he's really sorry for doing this right now, especially after what we just did. And I was so understanding and I was like, oh, yeah, I get it. It's totally fine.

Clarissa Winter [01:00:01] But I didn't. I was, like, heartbroken. First of all, I think to any girl, religious or not religious, you're losing your virginity is a very sacred, big moment for you. Like, you know, you. It's a big deal. And also being Mormon and I just committed, like, the biggest sin next to murder.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] And. Why do you think he was breaking up with you? And then how did that feel? What did that.

Clarissa Winter [01:00:33] How did you interpret it? I don't know. I just.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] You did this thing that God thought was bad.

Clarissa Winter [01:00:38] Yeah, he wasn't really. He wasn't Mormon. He wasn't. Like, I just thought he just, like. I think he just got what he wanted. He didn't really want to date me. He just. Which, whatever, you know, I'm not, like, upset about it now, but at the time it really hurt me because I didn't have any friends to tell about this story.

John Dehlin [01:00:56] And it sounds like it wasn't super enjoyable. Like, it wasn't or it wasn't fun like you thought it would be?

Clarissa Winter [01:01:01] No, it was. I was embarrassed. Like, afterwards I wasn't doing it. The things. Right. I could just tell he wasn't impressed. Wasn't this beautiful moment where we're both connecting or anything? It was just. Yeah. So. So just losing my virginity also, God watched me also. Holy Ghost probably left me at this point. And I'm never going to tell my parents. They can never find out about this. Even though I use a condom. What if I'm pregnant. So I just kind of pushed away my feelings. I just kept going forward. I didn't really think about it. I just went on, moved on.

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 1295

Clarissa Winter [00:00:30] And then eventually I just wanted to do it again.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Okay, let me ask you about that. So. So I'm thinking he dumps you. It wasn't that gratifying. You feel all the guilt and shame. One thing that you might expect would. Would occur to you would be, oh, I'm never doing that again until I'm married. Like, that was such a bad experience. All on all fronts. I'm done. I'm going to repent now, and I'm good until I'm married. Now that's just me being logical. Tell. Tell me how that wasn't. Tell me why that wasn't how it followed, how it progressed. If you. If you even have a sense for why, is it just again, hormones or drive or curiosity or just shame? Well, what would drive you to keep going?

Clarissa Winter [00:01:19] I didn't like how it happened. I wanted to redo it over again.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] Maybe.

Clarissa Winter [00:01:24] I also, like, yeah, just redo it. I also felt very guilty about it. I started even, you know, over time, I started feeling horrible guilty. Just so I was shaming myself, judging my. Myself, convincing myself I was horrible. I was bad. And I think I just wanted it. I don't know. I wanted to do it again to make me feel not as guilty. Like, make it a normal thing. I don't know how to explain it.

Clarissa Winter [00:01:48] Like, it.

Clarissa Winter [00:01:49] I wanted to do it again, so it wasn't a big deal. Somehow in my mind, that's how I took it. So I was working at this gas station at the time and Mount Carmel Junction on your way to Zion.

Clarissa Winter [00:02:04] And I got a lot of attention from guys in there. Like, and I loved it, you know, different bus drivers or just people always asking me for my number. And it was awesome. It made me feel good just because of how insecure I was and how lonely I was. It was something I actually loved. Going to work and looking forward to things.

Clarissa Winter [00:02:24] That's not to sound conceited. That's to explain how sad I was. And I was craving attention and love and just tension. Like, I didn't get the right kind. And so it made me. It made me feel good about myself, which was. It's not a good thing. It's not a good thing that. That's what makes you feel good about yourself.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] Being sexually attractive to other men.

Clarissa Winter [00:02:51] Yeah, like, men were attracted to me. Like, men. And then, you know what's so sad is just like, a lot of guys that would come in there would, like, sexually harass me. And it didn't make me feel good, but I didn't know how bad that was. I didn't. I just thought it was okay because that they were just telling me that they thought I was. They look, I look good or was pretty. But looking back now like, oh my gosh, yeah, that was not okay. But I didn't know, So.

Self-Worth, Attention, and Repentance Attempts

John Dehlin [00:03:30] But, But I also heard you maybe, maybe suggest that building your self worth or self esteem on the attention that you get from men for being attractive. Were you saying that. That maybe that wasn't great or wasn't healthy or.

Clarissa Winter [00:03:47] No, it wasn't healthy because first of all, I didn't think I was pretty. I didn't think I was pretty at all. I was hoping I was enough. Like I'd find things I would maybe like about myself and. But I didn't think that they were necessarily true. I'd try to convince myself of it, but I though I did. Growing up, I can't explain to you how I had no self confidence, no self esteem, no self love, no none of those things. And so the times that I had it were not in healthy ways. They were not good. So when I just started working at this gas station and just being like these guys would notice me and tell me I'm pretty and stuff, it felt great. It felt good. But I didn't realize how unhealthy it was. That was gaining my confidence. But I wasn't telling myself these things.

Clarissa Winter [00:04:52] Or was it self confidence?

Clarissa Winter [00:04:53] No, no,

John Dehlin [00:04:56] it was. It was based on men with. Who didn't necessarily have your best intentions at heart.

Clarissa Winter [00:05:03] Is that y. Yeah, maybe some of them did, you know, but you're just.

John Dehlin [00:05:07] Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:05:10] So back to what we were talking about. I met up or this random kid was. There were these people that were going to film something at Lake Powell. And there was a boy that was my age of 17. I thought he was hot. He had that surfer hair that I thought was so cute back then. And he asked me for my number. I gave it to him and he said he wanted to meet up later, know nothing about this kid, but decided I like our conversation just ended up, we're gonna have sex. And of course I didn't want to tell my parents that I was gonna have sex.

Clarissa Winter [00:05:47] So I asked if I just asked, could I go hang out with this kid I just met? And they didn't feel good about it. So then I was, I think I like there was this girl at the time, she, that I was hanging out with and she was like, well, just come tell them you're gonna come spend the night at my house. And do come spend the night at My house, but sneak off.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:12] So I did that. I was just like, okay, then what? Can I go spend the night at her house? And they let me. They fell for it. And so of course I snuck off and drove to go meet up with him and ended up having sex.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:28] And it went a lot better this time. I felt more confident. But I also, you know, I felt horrible. I felt slutty. I felt disgusted. But I got it over with. And my parents did go and see if my car was there, and it wasn't.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:54] So they knew what I was doing and they didn't know what I was doing. They just knew I lied. And I snuck off to go hang out with this kid. And so it was like the next morning they called like, super early, like 6, 7am and demanded I came home. And I did.

Clarissa Winter [00:07:13] And I knew I was in trouble. I knew, like, I could just feel the energy. I could feel something was about to happen. And we, like, kind of got into a fight. Like, you know, I admitted I went and hung out with this kid. They're like, well, what did you do? And I'm like, I'm not. I want to tell you. We just hung out, you know, And I was so mad. I felt. I was so upset with the fact that, like, even though I did lie, I didn't like that they didn't trust me enough to just. Which I understand, but, like, you know, it felt.

Clarissa Winter [00:07:51] And then I. I just yelled at them. I was like, we had sex. And they both, like, their eyes got really big and my mom started crying. And my dad was mad. Like, he was. He's a silent man. He doesn't yell or anything, but he was very internally mad. You could tell. And I remember

Clarissa Winter [00:08:16] I've never heard my mom cry like that. And I did that to her. And I tried to stay tough and put on this face that, like, I didn't care. And I cared so much. I didn't mean to hurt my mom and my dad. I didn't mean to make them so mad at me. That did start. We were ready. Like, I think we're kind of having issues with, like, me just being.

Clarissa Winter [00:08:56] Starting to become, like, more rebellious, talking back. And then struggling because they didn't know

Clarissa Winter [00:09:05] how to handle it. And that really caused a really bad part. Like, it really affected our relationship in a very negative way.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:17] They didn't trust me. You know,

Clarissa Winter [00:09:23] To clarify, we are really good now.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:25] We're very good now.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:26] So it's.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:27] I don't. Don't need to look at my parents as bad because this wasn't they weren't bad. They were just reacting how, you know,

Clarissa Winter [00:09:36] they didn't expect it from me.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:38] They were disappointed. And I just felt so extra, like I already was feeling so bad before I had told them. And I just felt worse, like, after. It just made everything worse. And I wanted to make it up to them. I didn't want them to look at me as this bad girl, you know,

Clarissa Winter [00:10:03] like,

Clarissa Winter [00:10:06] you know, I didn't smoke, I didn't do drugs, you know, like, I didn't get into alcohol, any of those things. Like, I didn't steal. I didn't do anything like that. I just had sex. I was a really bad person. And so that's what led up to my repentance.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] It's. It's funny because you say you didn't do anything bad and you were just doing normal. I mean, how many kids in and out of Mormonism explore sexuality? But in the Mormon context, the reason why your mom is crying and the reason why it's so severe is because, as you said early on, in the Mormon context, sex is next to murder in severity. So you're. You're not killing someone, but it's kind of like right under that. It's right under murder. Right. And that's. That's why your mom is sobbing, and that's why you're feeling so terrible.

Clarissa Winter [00:11:02] Yeah, because, like, I understand now. Like, I get it even to this day. Like, I. Looking back, and I understand what they were feeling and going through. Like, I. I understand because, you know, in the church, they're, you know, they're trying so hard to raise me righteous, raise me the way that God wants me to be, you know, how I'm supposed to be. And I just didn't do that. I just ruined things, you know, my life. And I was going off the deep end, you know, I was.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] Yeah,

Clarissa Winter [00:11:44] I. You know, I've always been a nice person. I've always been. I've always been nice. I've always been kind, compassionate. But I didn't feel like I was a good person. You know, those things that make me a good person did not. God didn't see any of those things.

Clarissa Winter [00:12:08] He only saw that I had sex, and now he's mad at me. For those who aren't Mormon, this might seem hard to understand, But it is so real. It is so. Especially when you're raised, you know, you're. Some people might call it, you know, brainwashed, you know, however, whatever you want to call it. But I was raised in this church, and I believed it to Be true. And I just. And I had this gift of being in this church, being raised in this church. That is the only true church. You know, we have all the answers. And I just committed a sin that will. That has disappointed so many people and God. And I am nowhere near going to the celestial kingdom. It was so real. I started having suicidal thoughts again at this point.

Clarissa Winter [00:13:26] So I tried to make it up to my parents, told them I was

Clarissa Winter [00:13:28] going to go repent and was going to be good. I was going to be a good girl. They were happy to hear that. So. And I wasn't really ready to repent. I wasn't there yet. I did feel guilty about it, and I knew at some point I was going to repent, but I kind of was rushed. If felt rushed for me, but I just wanted to get it over with. And I was so proud of myself for taking these steps to go repent. And I knew God was happy with me. I was doing all the things, you know, like here, like, we're gonna change. You're gonna make a change in your life. You're gonna start doing good. The bishop's gonna listen to you. He's gonna be so proud of you.

Clarissa Winter [00:14:10] He's gonna be there for you, and

Clarissa Winter [00:14:12] he's gonna help you get through this.

Clarissa Winter [00:14:16] Gonna be a beautiful experience. And you're gonna be closer to God

Clarissa Winter [00:14:19] because you're far apart from.

Clarissa Winter [00:14:22] I'm away from God and the Holy

Clarissa Winter [00:14:23] Ghost right now, and I'm gonna be

Clarissa Winter [00:14:25] closer to him and he's gonna be proud of me. And I was really, really, really

Clarissa Winter [00:14:32] counting

Clarissa Winter [00:14:34] on this bishop repentance I was gonna be doing with my bishop. And I really needed the church at this time. Like, I didn't have friends. I didn't have, like, you know, my parents weren't really happy with me. I was lonely. I didn't. My boyfriend just broke up, you know, all these things, and I have never felt so alone and so ashamed of myself. And so I went to go repent and I told him. I asked him if I.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] The bishop?

Clarissa Winter [00:15:05] Yeah, the bishop.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:06] We were in Orderville.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:08] I was still going to church in Orderville, and I, you know, so I set up an appointment, and I was gonna meet him after church. And so I arrived.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:24] This is really hard for me to talk about.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:25] Sorry.

A Troubling Bishop Interview and Ecclesiastical Shaming

Clarissa Winter [00:15:30] So I go in, he shuts the door.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:33] You know, I just told him, you know, he sat down and he's like,

Clarissa Winter [00:15:39] good to see you.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:40] You know, like, you know, Sorry, this is really hard.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] I have no water, but I'll get you some water. Keep talking.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:55] Thank you. So I go in. You know, it's just. We're alone in the bishop room. And then he asked me why I'm here. And I told him I need to repent for something I did. And he goes, okay, you know, what are you. What are you here for? And I just. You know, I told him, and I said it. I said it in a way that I'm proud that I'm here to repent. I'm proud that I am here. You know, I just said, well, I did something bad. You know, I had sex, and that's why I'm here. And I was not expecting his. Thank you. I was not expecting his reaction, which was he got mad.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:53] He got mad. He became very quiet.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:58] Like, he put it. You know, he put his hand, like, on his. Like, he was just thinking. And he's like, what? And I'm like, whoa. Yeah. You know? And I don't know even know how it started escalating. Like, it just went 0 to 100 really quick, you know?

Clarissa Winter [00:17:16] Like, what?

Clarissa Winter [00:17:17] Like, my eyes. Like, he just started shouting at me. At one point, he even, like, threw his fist onto, like, the table, was, like, pissed, and he threw paper off of his. I was like, what? Like, I was afraid. Like, I. Not, like. Not that he was gonna do anything to me. Like, not for my safety, but I was just like, oh, my gosh, I made someone mad. I'm always making people mad, like, my whole life. And I was not expecting this, though, because I thought this was gonna be, like, this beautiful experience that he's gonna be proud of me for, and I'm gonna, you know, become a better person for the repenting.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:50] And he. Oh, he was so disappointed me. He's like, how could you do this? I can't believe you did this. Like, he kept saying that over and over again, and I started crying, and I'm. Because I was so confused. And I was also, like, hurt extra. Like, I was already sad, and I had high expectations for this repentance meeting. Then.

Clarissa Winter [00:18:19] He

Clarissa Winter [00:18:22] asked me, okay, so how did it happen? What did you do? And I'm like, well, we had sex. He's like, don't be ridiculous. What did you do? I'm like, like, so confused. What was going on? Like, what he was trying to ask me. And I'm just like.

Clarissa Winter [00:18:42] I mean, like, we. He's like, well, how did it happen? I'm like, well, I mean, we met up, told him where we met up. And I'm like. And then we just. He's like, stop being Ridiculous. Just tell me what happened. And I'm like, wait, I'm telling you what happened. Like we had sex. He's like, how? Tell me everything that happened. How'd it go? I'm like so confused. I'm like, what? Why? You know. And I'm like, well, I mean, we got together and we got naked and we had sex and he just got more pissed. Like, like, like, you know, like putting his hands on his face.

Clarissa Winter [00:19:16] Like so disappointed. He's like, come on, grow up, what happened? Like, I need to know what happened. And I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Like I. I didn't know what he was trying to get at, you know, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] He wanted you to do a play by play?

Clarissa Winter [00:19:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Is that right?

Clarissa Winter [00:19:30] Yeah. I had to go into details, but I didn't understand that's what he wanted. I didn't realize that that's what I had to do to repent. Like, I didn't. I just thought I had to tell him I had sex and then we'd go from there, but.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] So he wanted what type of detail? Like, just tell me step by step by step. Oh my gosh.

Clarissa Winter [00:19:46] I was 17 and I'm a. And he's a grown man and he's mad at me and I'm not giving him anything that I'm not. Everything I'm saying is just making it worse. He's getting more mad at me and it's also making me uncomfortable that I have to go into detail. So I went into detail and so was. And I'm like, I don't know what you want me to say. Like, I don't know what I'm saying. Cuz everything, you know, like everything I was saying wrong. He was getting pissed. Like that's not what he wanted. He needed me to like tell him more and I didn't. And.

Clarissa Winter [00:20:27] And then

Clarissa Winter [00:20:29] at the end he's like. He said, repeat after me. He put his penis inside my vagina. And I. So uncomfortable. And so I said it and I said it. Really?

Clarissa Winter [00:20:41] Like, he put his penis inside my vagina.

Clarissa Winter [00:20:44] It was like really uncomfortable to say. It was like weird. I didn't understand.

Clarissa Winter [00:20:47] And he's like, okay, say it again. You know, but you know, and so I said it and he's like, okay, now you repented.

Clarissa Winter [00:20:54] And I'm like, what the heck is going on? And he just got really. I was he.

Clarissa Winter [00:21:06] When he kept asking me like, how

Clarissa Winter [00:21:07] could you do this? And I was trying to like explain myself.

Clarissa Winter [00:21:11] Like, I've been Really sad. We recently, like, my dad got sick, and, you know, he has an illness,

Clarissa Winter [00:21:17] and he

Clarissa Winter [00:21:19] was just being, like, trying to find out what was wrong with him, and it was hard to watch. Even though, like, we weren't getting along very well. I saw my dad, and I loved him.

Clarissa Winter [00:21:27] I care about, like, if he was

Clarissa Winter [00:21:28] gonna die or not. And trying to explain that to him, like, I'm very scared for my dad. I mean. And he was like, oh, come on, you're an adult.

Clarissa Winter [00:21:34] But he would say it, like, so

Clarissa Winter [00:21:36] angrily, like, don't give me this. I'm. I'm not gonna play this game with you. Don't give me this crap. And he kept saying that. Don't give me this crap. And I'm like, what am I?

Clarissa Winter [00:21:48] What am I? I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I thought this was, like. I thought I was doing something good by telling you this. And

Clarissa Winter [00:21:55] so after he was done yelling at me and everything, after he's done being mad and after I was done

Clarissa Winter [00:22:03] saying all the details and the words, he put his penis inside my vagina to this man.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:12] He ended up smiling and was like, thank you for coming in.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:16] God's really happy with you.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:19] And then he also went. He told me how. Before he said that. Before he smiled and said that, he told me how this is really bad, what I've done. He can't. This is just. He's never like, this is just crazy how I would never expect that from me or anyone, you know? And he feels in his heart that I need to be excommunicated. And so he's going. He needs to bring this to the higher power and pray for me and see if that's what needs to happen.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:56] Higher power meaning, like, the. Whatever the. Or the bishop, like the stake president. Those people meet. Higher power is not the word I would use. The authorities in the church. I don't know what you call it, but I didn't understand.

Clarissa Winter [00:23:13] I was already sobbing, and I was like, oh, my gosh. I'm already like, I've just lost everything, and now I'm gonna be excommunicated. Are you kidding me? Like, especially growing up in a town with how tiny it was, less than 400 people. Like, everyone's gonna find out about this. I'm going. I'm going to, like, my parents. I can't do this to my parents. Oh, how am I going to survive? How am I through the town at 17

Clarissa Winter [00:23:37] being excommunicated?

Clarissa Winter [00:23:38] And everyone's gonna know about it. They're just gonna know and

Clarissa Winter [00:23:44] oh my gosh, I was about to get excommunicated from the thing I loved most and

Clarissa Winter [00:23:47] was raised in and believed in.

Clarissa Winter [00:23:49] You have no idea that. 17 I was giving God wanted me to be. He felt in his heart that I need to be excommunicated. Because that, you know, cuz don't. Doesn't God talk through him? The Holy Ghost is there talking to him and helping him deal with me. You know he's been given that title

John Dehlin [00:24:21] of judging Israel, right? Prof. Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:24:26] Can you give me a second?

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Yeah. I'll just read some of the comments. Going clears is being so vulnerable and this is so intense. I can't imagine you don't have a headache right now from just an emotional vulnerability hangover. So many people are making comments. I'll just share some of the comments.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] So Amy writes, there's no reason ever to have more details. You know, they shouldn't ask details. Linda writes, the shame is so terribly sad. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing your story. I admire your courage and strength.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] And he writes, the guilt and shame heaped, heaped on by the teachings of the church concerning morality are insane. I'm so sorry that you went through so much pain and suffering. The intense morality rules are class controlling techniques of a high demand church. You're beyond brave for sharing your story. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Bella writes, how horrific to have a grown man asking for such inappropriate details. Melissa writes, this is damaging and causes suicide. Bella, do you know Bella Rebecca Marshall? Isabella Marshall?

Clarissa Winter [00:25:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] Oh, hi. She says, oh sweetie, sending you love. So glad you overcame this and became such a strong, independent woman. So lots of comments for love. Gabby is your cousin. She writes, I really love you cousin.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:04] Oh, she's watching it.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Sorry you have to go through this.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:06] So that makes me so emotional, like in a good way, like happy.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:13] Do you know if my Uncle Pat is watching? Has he commented on anything?

John Dehlin [00:26:16] I'll let you know as soon as he. If he comments, I'll let you know. And I yeah, and I think Clinton was on earlier as well.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:24] So I'm just teasing Uncle Pet. He'll know why.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] Okay. Lots of love.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:30] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Yeah. And I know there's a lot if you want to stop or take a break or whatever at any time. Okay.

Uncertainty Over Church Discipline and Its Aftermath

Clarissa Winter [00:26:38] I so I left back to the bishop, you know, my left with that not knowing if I was gonna be excommunicated or not.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:52] I also was like you were saying

John Dehlin [00:26:55] he's like a judge in Israel or like he's God's mouthpiece or something.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:58] Yeah, like isn't that, like, what bishops, you know, they're.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] They're supposed to speak for God.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:02] Yeah. They're prayed for, you know, like, before they get confirmed bishop, you know, any of those roles in the church. They pray about it, they feel the Holy Spirit, they give the person a blessing. They really pray and think about it, you know, like, this is a real moment.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] Inspiration.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:14] Yeah, inspiration.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] They're being the calling's inspired of God.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:18] Yeah. And they're supposed to like, you know, like the Holy Ghost tells them the answer, who it should be, and if this person is. Should be this or not. And so I was just like, so

John Dehlin [00:27:31] he's speaking for God at that point.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] And God wants you excommunicated.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:34] God is like speaking through him, through the Holy Ghost, you know, however. And I'm just like, oh my gosh. Either, like, is God really this mad at me? And I'm also like, wondering. I'm like, is that really God?

Clarissa Winter [00:27:47] Like, did God just want this to happen?

Clarissa Winter [00:27:51] I don't think God wanted that to happen.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:54] That's not how God works. That's not. The stories I heard about God and Jesus, like, don't they love their kids? They, you know, you hear those stories about the. How, like all like that horror. I remember the story, but she, Jesus

Clarissa Winter [00:28:13] was coming into town or something.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] The woman caught the woman in adultery is the story.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:17] Or. Yeah, she got like, near him and everyone's like, don't. She's a, like, whatever.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:22] And he lifted her up and hugged

Clarissa Winter [00:28:25] her or something and like, loved her

Clarissa Winter [00:28:27] and just forgave her or whatever.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:29] And

Clarissa Winter [00:28:32] I thought that, that, like, I

Clarissa Winter [00:28:36] remember those stories to this day.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:37] Like, those are the stories that we

Clarissa Winter [00:28:41] hear about God and Jesus and even in any, you know, religion who he really is. And. So I just really question, like, I never, you know, throughout my journey

Clarissa Winter [00:29:01] with

Clarissa Winter [00:29:02] struggling with being Mormon and all these things, I never questioned, I never had doubts in God. I questioned why things were happening, but I never was mad at him.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:12] I always loved God.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:14] I loved my relationship with my Heavenly Father.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:23] So I never, I was never mad at him. I just, But I was just like, what happened, God? Like, what happened? I felt like I was the biggest piece of crap on the entire. Like, I deserved to be excommunicated. I deserved to die. So came home and I was so shooken up. I was shaking. I was shaking so bad. Like, I was crying.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:53] And I told my mom,

Clarissa Winter [00:29:55] he yelled at me.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:56] He was really mad at me and I might be excommunicated. I didn't tell her about how I had to go into detail that didn't seem necessary. I don't know why. But I told her, you know, stuff and she just was, she was confused

Clarissa Winter [00:30:14] and she's like, that's weird.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:16] That's what she said.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:16] That's weird.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:18] And then we just, you know, went on doing things and, and I just kept talking about it. I'm like, mom, I don't, I don't like what happened and I don't want to go back. I'm scared to go back and finish my repentance. I don't want to go back. I don't want to be treated like that.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:31] I'm scared.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:31] I don't. And I don't know why. Why did he act like that, Mom?

Clarissa Winter [00:30:34] Like, why did he, why did he do that?

Clarissa Winter [00:30:36] You know? And she's like, oh, me?

Clarissa Winter [00:30:37] You're just having a bad day.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:39] You know, like, she, you know, she's also probably confused and like, but like trying, you know, like as Mormons, you're, you're taught to respect these people, the authority. Authority, yeah. You're not supposed to question them. And that's very much frowned upon, especially if you've gone through the temple. You're definitely not supposed to question them. You're supposed to stand by their side. And so I understand her mindset or like, you know, my parents, like just, there must be a reason why, you know, like, I did that plenty of times. So. He got, I got through the repentance process. I met up with him a few more times. He was nicer. Oh, and the next time I met up with him, he said, thank you for coming back also. I just want to say thank you. God's really happy that he repented to me. And we, I went and pray. I brought it to the higher council.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] Higher stake president.

Clarissa Winter [00:31:40] Yeah, like the higher council. And we prayed and we felt that you don't need to be excommunicated.

Clarissa Winter [00:31:45] And I'm like, great.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] Well, did that make you happy? Why not?

Clarissa Winter [00:31:52] I mean, it made me relieved because the town won't find out about it and I won't have to go through all that shame and judgment.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] But there's also, there's also this problem structurally of some middle aged white man deciding your worthiness. Right. Deciding that you don't get to decide that it's not about your relationship with God. It's not about what God communicates to you. You're waiting to hear the verdict on what a bunch of white middle aged men decide. God feels and thinks about you. And I just wonder what that's Like

Clarissa Winter [00:32:31] I think no matter what age you are, that's a very scary thing. You're anticipating. You're so afraid of what's gonna happen at 17 especially like I don't know stuff yet. I don't have that. I'm not. I haven't lived life and it had. I don't know what it's, you know, like, I don't know how to go about this. I don't know how to feel. I did know is how I that

Clarissa Winter [00:32:55] I felt

Clarissa Winter [00:32:57] so depressed.

Clarissa Winter [00:32:58] Like way past depressed.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:00] Like it was gonna. I'm ready to die. Like I'm planning it. Like, think why should I live? Give me one reason why I should live.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:11] One reason. And then just. I was so numb. I was so numb.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:18] And when he told me it was like, you know, I just didn't. I smiled and said yay or something,

Clarissa Winter [00:33:23] but I didn't care. I was. Didn't make it. Didn't change me how I felt. I felt relieved for sure, but.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:40] And then after that, I just would avoid him at all costs. He had a daughter that was my age too in my young women's. And she was really nice to me in young women's. And I remember her all of a sudden. I don't know if it's just coincidental

Clarissa Winter [00:33:54] or what, but she would go the

Clarissa Winter [00:33:57] opposite direction of me when she would see me.

Clarissa Winter [00:34:00] And it could be not because of that, but it also very well could

Clarissa Winter [00:34:03] be, you know, like it hurt me because I liked her. She was nice to me.

Clarissa Winter [00:34:09] Like, I just disappointed everyone who haven't I disappointed. But I got through it. I just kept pushing through it. I got pretty started planning a suicide. Never got to that point. But I came up with how I was going to do it, what I was going to leave in my note.

Clarissa Winter [00:34:48] I'm so sorry to my little brother. I was 6 when he was born and I love my little brother so much, especially not having friends as a kid. And now this child is born to your family and he has no way out. He has to be your friend, you know, he has to. He has to be your sibling. And I spent so much time with him and I loved him so much. And I was very protective of him. Very love. Just would do anything for him. I was always so paranoid something bad would happen to him. He is such a good kid. He's such a beautiful person. I also was in charge of babysitting him a lot at a young age, which is fine, you know, my parents

Clarissa Winter [00:35:32] didn't have a lot of money. We didn't Have a lot of options and stuff.

Clarissa Winter [00:35:34] And I was swimming with him. I was seven. He was a year old, still in

Clarissa Winter [00:35:40] diapers

Clarissa Winter [00:35:42] and I was swimming and he fell into the pool and I didn't see it him. And I eventually noticed that he wasn't there and he was in the water and I was. I you know, got him out. I ran over as fast as I could and why he can't run fast. And I pulled him out and he was crying and so grateful. I felt so. Guilty and I from them from there on. I became so protective of my little brother because I almost killed him with not watching him even though I was seven years old. You know, if you ever. If you have any kids that are seven and you have any babies that are, you know, selling diapers and you just can maybe imagine the seven year old taking that child out of the water that how traumatic that was and how much responsibility I took on for his safety.

Clarissa Winter [00:36:43] I just didn't think my parents were

Clarissa Winter [00:36:44] supposed to protect him. I was supposed to protect him. Anything that happens to him, it's my responsibility. It's my fault. So I felt extremely bad about to kill myself and leaving my little brother. I also was my grandpa. I was very close with my grandparents and my grandpa. Those are the two people I would feel I was sad but they weren't at the time enough for me to stay on the earth. I also had a baby niece. She was born when I was 16. Her name was.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:22] Her name is Clara.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:24] Oh. I think she is the thing that changed my life.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:28] She was born at a time when

Clarissa Winter [00:37:29] I needed her Most. I was 16 and I just fell in love with my niece Clara. I wanted to give me something to live for. And in my other. I'll get to another eventually.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:46] When I actually did was ready to

Clarissa Winter [00:37:48] commit suicide at the age of 19. How little girl saved my life. But yeah. So moving forward.

Suicidal Thoughts Emerge at Age Sixteen

John Dehlin [00:38:00] So you were. So you had. You had some suicidal thoughts or ideation at 16?

Clarissa Winter [00:38:05] Yeah, I started in fifth grade.

Clarissa Winter [00:38:07] It became was my first experience of wanting to die. I didn't really think about it again until I was 14 and then I was 16 to 17 and especially now at this point when I was 17.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Okay, so but. But you didn't at 17.

Clarissa Winter [00:38:25] I never tried any of those times. They were just thoughts, they were plans.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Okay.

Clarissa Winter [00:38:31] I actually remember at 16 because I

Clarissa Winter [00:38:34] was going through a lot with like anxiety and depression and put on so much medication that didn't help. It just made things worse. And going to see so many doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, therapy like Therapists and just having a really messed up life at this point, you know, I started planning my death. How, if I could choose how it would be.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:04] And it was a beautiful thing. Like, it wasn't this sad suicide. It was a beautiful death. Like, I was going to be in Ireland. I was obsessed with Ireland. I was obsessed with Peter Pan in the movie Legend.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:16] And they're gonna be like, I was gonna be in Ireland. I was gonna be wearing a white, beautiful dress, and there were gonna be fairies flying around me. I was 16. I understand that this is not realistic, but in my head, it was this beautiful calm. And like, the fairies, the unicorns, like, all these characters are gonna be my friend. And it was gonna be this beautiful death. I was just gonna die, and I was gonna. It was gonna be peaceful, and it was. So I looked forward to that. Every night I would dream about this death because that's how much I wanted to escape from my life.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] And I just have to. Number one. Again, thank you so much for being willing to share this. I want to give you pauses and chances to drink water. And it's probably appropriate for me to give sort of a. I maybe should have given this before. Kind of just a trigger warning. Just talking about suicide is a very intense thing. It can be very emotional.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] And I think this is also so important because Utah, as I understand it, in many categories, leads the nation in suicide, and especially for teenage boys and girls, as I understand it, between the ages of 15 and 24.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] And there are all sorts of theories about why suicidality is so high. We've covered that a little bit on past Mormon Stories episodes. I've had experts on this issue say that the accessibility of handguns is one factor that is associated with the Mountain west overall. Colorado, Idaho, other Mountain west states.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] The accessibility of handguns is one of the correlate with. With high suicide rates, but it also has to be intense sexual guilt and shame and super high expectations. And of course, the prohibition on. On LGBT and Q kind of experiences, gay, lesbian, bisexual experiences, and also the transgender experience.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] It's got to be that in a highly religious culture with so much guilt and shame around and let's just say porn and masturbation. I am quite certain that some of the intense guilt and shame and even suicidality in Utah and within Mormonism is just around plain and simple guilt and shame around sexual guilt, masturbation, and, I'm sure, breaking the law of chastity. And so in all those different ways, we are covering something that's very difficult, but that's very important because when you look at high schools, like Lone Peak or other high schools where there even been suicide sort of epidemics break out, it has to be that the high level of intense guilt and shame around what are very natural human behaviors are so important.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] And for those of you who are kind of annoyed at me and just want to hear Clarissa talk, we're intentionally taking these breaks to give Clarissa a little bit of chance to just kind of take. Take breaths, to hydrate, because this is really emotional. So that's why I'm talking right now. And Clarissa, you can tell us if that's okay.

Clarissa Winter [00:42:46] Yes, I'm good now.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Good, because you're doing a lot of emotional heavy lifting right now.

Clarissa Winter [00:42:51] Yeah, it is. It does. I am currently in therapy, which has been such a. My. She's a mental health counselor, and. Oh, my gosh, has she. Oh, has she changed my life. It's a great thing. I never want to leave her, ever. Like, I plan on dying, going to

Clarissa Winter [00:43:12] therapy with her, you know, like.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:14] But we. You know, I've covered a lot of trauma with her, but it's still. I'm a lot better at talking about

Clarissa Winter [00:43:20] it, but it's still hard because I

Clarissa Winter [00:43:22] am remembering what it felt like, which I've tried so hard to block out my whole life. Like, I blocked it out. I don't think about it. I don't talk about it.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:34] But.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:34] Yeah, so it's so sorry that I.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] No, no, there's no apologies. There's just gratitude and empathy. We're all so sorry this happened, and we're so grateful that you're willing to share these experiences because it's going to help other people. And hopefully Mormon leaders will. Will learn how not to treat their youth, parents will learn how to treat their youth, and youth will learn that it gets better, and that even if you're in a dark place, it can get to a better place. So where we left it was when you were sort of feeling like death seemed attractive.

Clarissa Winter [00:44:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] And it was almost appealing. You were having fantasies about a happy death.

Clarissa Winter [00:44:16] Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It was not. I mean, it's sad. It's sad, like, now, like, looking back on it, but, like, it was the

Clarissa Winter [00:44:24] thing I looked forward to.

Clarissa Winter [00:44:25] I just couldn't wait.

Clarissa Winter [00:44:27] And, you know, there was other things

Clarissa Winter [00:44:28] going on with me, like, outside of the religion, it wasn't about, you know, but I really. I. I wish, in my experience, and I'm really happy that a lot of people didn't have this, like, when they went to repent, like, I've heard of really good stories that they went to repent and their bishop was awesome and great. And I love that, I love hearing that and that the church was there for them and embrace them. And I really, I wish that would have happened to me. I hope that can happen to everyone in the church that is going. You know, I think everyone should have that beautiful story,

John Dehlin [00:45:06] but not all do.

Clarissa Winter [00:45:08] And I even have like, I had a friend, you know, she told me how, you know, she had sex and went to go repent and, and I was like, how did your bishop interview go? And she's like, oh, he was so nice. And I was like, whatever, this is stupid. Why did it only happen to me? Like, you know, I was so happy for her, but I was like jealous.

Clarissa Winter [00:45:27] I was like pissed.

Clarissa Winter [00:45:28] I was like very happy. She had a happy experience, but I was just like, it made me like, why me?

Clarissa Winter [00:45:33] Like, why, why did it happen?

Clarissa Winter [00:45:36] You know, like, why? How come every bishop's different? Like, isn't God, like, I don't know, like, isn't he supposed to like be nice to all of us? I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:45:47] But yeah, in Mormon stories, we often call it this bishop roulette or ecclesiastical roulette, that depending on what bishop you get, you may get a loving bishop that's like, hey, we all make mistakes. Just try not to do it again. Which is kind of more like Jesus acted when he caught the woman, you know, as some say in adultery. But then you get these bishops that intense shame and guilt and punishment and anger and they want graphic details. And it totally just depends on the bishop you get. And there's just not enough training and not enough standards. And this is why Sam Young did the Protect LDS Children movement and the Protect All Children movement, because the church just has to get better at this sort of stuff. Lives are at stake.

Clarissa Winter [00:46:29] And I really, like, I really respect those who are already like making changes that are Mormon and that are bishops that are on board with this. You know, like my brother in law, Taylor Clinton's sister Liz, her husband, he's a bishop and he is one of my favorite people in that family. Like, I've become so close with Taylor. Like, he just understands me. He gets me. I don't, like, I forget that he's Mormon, you know, like, because I'm like. Because a lot of times when I have conversations with Mormons, it can become uncomfortable for them, the things I'm discussing or the language I'm using and things.

Clarissa Winter [00:47:05] But he is just the coolest person I know. And I respect him so much for what he tells me. Like, he will only he won't talk to any, have any interviews with the kids unless another, like the parent is in the room or someone else is in the room, which is awesome.

Clarissa Winter [00:47:22] He's so understanding. He and my father in law, Ron, is gay and he has a husband, Will, and they're like my favorite people. Oh, man. When I remember finding out when I met Clinton that he had, like, he

Clarissa Winter [00:47:38] has a gay dad with a husband,

Clarissa Winter [00:47:40] I'm like, are you kidding me? Because I've always had gay friends and I have a lot of gay friends and I've always been drawn to that community. I'm like, I get to have a

Clarissa Winter [00:47:46] gay father in law. Are you kidding me? It was amazing. And then when I met him and

Clarissa Winter [00:47:50] just how freaking awesome. With open arms, welcoming me into the family. And he's also ex Mormon, Clinton's ex Mormon. And then just meeting Taylor, and Taylor just like, you know, like people that come into him that may, like, they're found out their kid is gay and they don't know what to do. And they. And just the way Bishop Taylor handles the situation, like the way he tells me he handles it is just so beautiful. Basically it comes down to like, don't worry about it. Like, they're going to be fine.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:25] You just.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:25] All you got to worry about is loving your kid. Like, God will figure it out and they sometimes will get mad at him, like, no, that's not what we're supposed to do. Like, you need to get mad at my kid for, you know, like, no, you don't worry about it. God will take care of it. Just love them. Just be there for your kin.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's a good bishop. A healthy bishop. Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:44] Yes.

Crisis Point and Placement in a Treatment Facility

John Dehlin [00:48:46] So tell us how things progressed for you. You were trying to repent. You did repent. You were told you weren't getting excommunicated. Where did things go from there?

Clarissa Winter [00:48:58] Just the same. Just lost. Very lost. I finished repentance eventually because I wanted to go to baptisms of the dead. I was 17 and it was gonna be like my last one. And I wanted to do it because I thought it would help me feel better. I didn't feel like, I don't really know how you feel if you're repented or not. Like, I don't know how that works. I asked him, like, I think I'm ready. Like, I've done everything you've told me to. I've haven't sinned anymore, you know, and he's like, okay, well if you think you're ready, I guess that's up to you. And I'm like, okay, well then I think I'm repented, you know.

Clarissa Winter [00:49:41] He didn't seem on board with it, but I went and I just, just tried harder. I just still really struggled with figuring out who I was. Having that stable, just having that solid ground of being like happy with who I am, like embracing all these things about me.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:05] I wasn't confident at all, you know. So eventually, over time, you know, like, and with my mental illness, like with anxiety and depression, I went through a lot of battles. I ended up When I was 17, I went to a place where they. For kids who try to harm themselves and commit suicide.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] And so your parents were worried about you and they sent you somewhere.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:35] They knew you were suicidal.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:37] My therapist told my mom. And I know that my mom, like, I think it's hard for anybody to put your kid into a place like this. It's kind of like. Looks like a prison, like, but it's not, you know, it's because you go in and you're held there against your will and you're in your own little room and you're locked in there. It's kind of like a psych ward or like a, you know, but it wasn't a psych ward. It was just for like helping the kids, you know, the youth.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] And I just, I'm sorry, I just have to jump in. So as someone who I have a psychology PhD, I've been in the mental health industry here in Utah for many years. Utah is a national center for these youth correctional programs. Whether it's going out into the nature, mountain hiking, camping, or just intense inpatient youth treatment centers, we sort of import youth from all over the country because there's a cottage industry of sort of youth reform facilities and programs here in Utah. And it's got to be a big chunk of that is just homegrown. There's so much guilt and shame and pressure that parents need and kids become depressed and anxious and suicidal and act out. And so all these programs exist. And so you were sent to one of those?

Clarissa Winter [00:52:03] Yep, I was sent to one of those. And I didn't know that I was going. My therapist told my mom how to get me there, you know, cuz you don't want to tell her that's where we're going, cuz she'll freak out. Because I could, I kind of thought, because I remember, like I was really struggling with, like I threatened, I think, like I was just going crazy, you know, Like, I didn't. I was just. My medicine was just had a lot of side effects and I would just go extra crazy or come like. I don't know. It was just. It was really hard. The medication just made everything worse.

Clarissa Winter [00:52:39] Like, to be honest, it did not help me at all, at all. Which is common for those who are like teenagers. It affects kids differently than when you're a certain age. Like as an adult, your brain, you know, it's different. So I was having a lot of bad experiences with the medication. And a lot of the times it made my depression worse, my anxiety worse, more suicidal thoughts. And I think I like threatened my mom and dad if they ever lock me up in like psych ward, I will kill myself with my fingernails. Like something scary like that.

Clarissa Winter [00:53:13] And I, you know, my therapist picked up on a lot of signs of me not, you know, being happy, being depressed out of like, you know, ready to die, type of. I never told her I want to die because I didn't want people to find out. Like I wanted to do it. I didn't want them to try and stop me.

Clarissa Winter [00:53:33] So I ended up going. So she took me to primary's children. My mom, she told me that we're gonna go visit my sister and my baby niece and I don't have to go to school for a week. Like we're just gonna go make myself feel better. I'm gonna go hang out with my baby niece.

Clarissa Winter [00:53:47] And at this time I was on online classes in high school because I was struggling with high school. I couldn't do it. Like everything that was going on. Never graduated high school. So we got there primaries children's and they set up. I had to meet with some. I didn't know what was going on. I thought I was just getting. Because I had so many.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:11] I always was getting my blood drawn, I was always getting like cat scans, like MRIs, like all those tests done, all of it. Like I thought I was just getting another one of those things to like see how I was doing with the medications and stuff. And then they got me set up and then I. Like when they told me where I was going and I started catching on, like, I'm gonna be. I just tried to stay calm, I stayed calm.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:35] I. So they brought me to the place, my mom came with me and my brother in law and I don't get. I'm not mad at my parents because like, it's not something I'm mad at. I think at first I was hurt. I was pissed at them for. But I also understood, like they didn't

Clarissa Winter [00:54:56] know what to do with me. Like, so I end up getting to this place and they had me put on, you know, like these gray sweatpants and shirt and could only wear socks. They were like those hospital socks. They took away your shoes, they took away everything. And I remember saying goodbye to my mom and my brother in law and remember the part where they leave and then they show you your room and then they shut the door? Dear. I have never felt more alone in my life than being in that place and not understanding why I was here. What happened? How did this all happen? How am I here? I did good. I stayed. I did really good. I've always been a good, always done good.

Clarissa Winter [00:55:54] Like in high school, I never got

Clarissa Winter [00:55:55] sent to the principal's office. Like I was always, you know, I would get. I would talk a lot in class, but I always behaved. I always did my best to behave in those situations because I was always afraid. I was always afraid of getting in trouble. I think that's what kept me grounded. So in this place, I stayed calm, didn't do anything I wasn't supposed to do. I listened to directions because I was so afraid.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:18] I didn't know. I didn't want to get in trouble. I didn't want worse things.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:20] I didn't want to stay longer. I wanted to get out soon as possible.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:23] I believe I was there for seven days.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:24] I was supposed to be there for nine, but on good behavior, they let you out. You're showing improvements. I was allowed to have my family

Clarissa Winter [00:56:33] visit me, which was my mom. She'd come every day at a certain time.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:38] I think it was like four to five. And I brought this little picture my sister made for me of my baby niece, Clara. There's this cute, like one of those, like photo booth type photos of her. It said Hollywood Clara on there.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:57] She's this little baby with sunglasses, just being cute and there's different pictures.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:01] And I held on to that and I kept it under my pillow. And every night I would cry and I'd look at her this beautiful. Like I was wondering if I was. She was gonna be disappointed in me one day. I loved her so much. I love my nieces. Like you have no idea how much I love my nieces. But I got through it. I think it helped. I think what helped me get back into shape and become more stable was me being so afraid to ever go back there again that I would try to do everything I was told to do. It. It wasn't necessarily like the, I don't remember the sessions like being helpful.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:41] I don't like, I don't think I took anything.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:43] Maybe I liked the group sessions because I liked hearing the other kids stories

Clarissa Winter [00:57:48] and not feeling alone but I didn't

Clarissa Winter [00:57:49] get anything from it. But what helped was just being afraid

Clarissa Winter [00:57:54] of ever having to be there again.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] It's kind of rock bottom, right?

Clarissa Winter [00:57:58] Yeah. And also

Clarissa Winter [00:58:00] seeing those kids, some of the kids that were in there so young, a 10 year old, I just thought of my little brother, he would,

Clarissa Winter [00:58:08] I don't know how.

Clarissa Winter [00:58:09] And some of the kids, their parents didn't come every day to visit them.

Clarissa Winter [00:58:12] They were just in there and

Clarissa Winter [00:58:15] it was so hard. I go through and especially with how much I care about people. I cared for these kids, other people like me. I felt so sick. It was just hard. I, it was hard for me to get through

Clarissa Winter [00:58:33] Ha.

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 1296

John Dehlin [00:00:29] So how. How. How did you. How did things go? Like, you get back, you've hit rock bottom. Where do you go from there?

Clarissa Winter [00:00:42] Just try to go back in a routine. Just keep pushing forward, which is hard.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] You didn't finish school.

Clarissa Winter [00:00:51] So what I tried, you know, it was. It was just very hard for me. Judge me all you want for not finishing high school. I don't care. Doesn't define me because I was, you know, I have. Well, I have add, which, you know, takes the toll, you know, whatever. But a lot of people with ADD graduate, so it's not the problem. But with my anxiety and depression, it had an effect on how I felt and how I paid attention. And, like, I was just very sad. Like, I just would go to class and not learn anything. You know, I wouldn't do assignments. I would just want to lay in bed all day.

Clarissa Winter [00:01:27] And. And then I missed out on a lot of school because I was, like, in and out of hospitals. I was struggling with medications. I'd have a really bad side effect. I had to quit dance because of it. My eyes were having seizures.

Clarissa Winter [00:01:40] A lot of things that kept me from not being able to perform in high school. Like, you know, like, do my assignments pay attention. So they started me on online classes, and I started out really good, but I just ended up getting lazy, not caring enough, and, yeah, just didn't finish.

Clarissa Winter [00:01:59] I tried even after, you know, but like. And I know I can. I know I can. Now as an adult, I do plan on at some point, you know, getting my ged, but that hasn't been a priority of mine in my life right now. It. My priorities have been to survive, get through things, learn how to love myself. Finishing high school is not in the picture right now.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Right, of course, yeah, but. But kind of as I'm trying to think about the. The story and how it develops. So you. So you have these intense periods of suicidality. You're struggling with anxiety and depression. You have all these medications and the idea, and you've tried to repent. And so you get to this point, you're 17, 18, 19, and you're trying to get back on the Mormon path. You're trying to become a good girl. You're trying to get worthy. You're trying to please your parents.

Life After Treatment and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:02:58] You go to this treatment facility and. And so where, you know, so one option, one path that some people take is sort of this prodigal daughter path where it's like, oh, I'll go on a mission or I'll get really righteous and I'll go To byu and I'll repent, and then I'll find a cute Mormon boy and marry a returned missionary and make it all better. That wasn't your path.

Clarissa Winter [00:03:28] So what eventually started to become that. But so what?

John Dehlin [00:03:33] Tell us where you went. Tell us how your path progressed.

Clarissa Winter [00:03:36] I just would go to church. I would go to all my young women, like, mutual events, firesides. Even though they're so boring, I'd go to them. I try to socialize with, you know, Mormons, good Mormon kids. I. I tried. Wanted to get back into dating. I started eventually feeling a little bit better, happier, but still wasn't fully where I wanted to be.

Clarissa Winter [00:04:04] And I wanted to date, and I wanted to date a good Mormon boy. I wanted to plan on getting married in the temple. And I started struggling a lot with just, you know, the basic things that I've always struggled with. And.

Clarissa Winter [00:04:20] And I actually had plans of when I get married, I'll find the perfect person to marry me. And. And that will help me stay faithful. Like, once I go through the temple, I will stay faithful, and I'll be a good wife. I'll be a good mother. And it will just click. It'll just click. And I can just do it. It'll make sense. I also was like, I don't know who the heck is gonna want to marry me? Like, I'm crazy. I'm. Who's gonna be able to, like, you know, handle my mental illness problems.

Clarissa Winter [00:04:56] I was also on a lot of medication that they told me, like, it's very, like, you cannot get pregnant on this. Like, this will, you know, cause so much damage to your child. And I. In my head, I thought that that was gonna be forever, like, because I was gonna have to be on this medication forever, and I will never be able to have a kid because the medications. And I just didn't understand why anyone would want to marry me. Like, who would want to even date me, Like.

Clarissa Winter [00:05:23] And so. But I was trying so hard to survive. Things would get better. Often, like, it was just very rocky. I believe in the church still, but, you know, at 18, I started not wanting to be so perfect. I wanted to. Like, I just had, like, I wanted to try things out. And it wasn't even, like, bad things. It was. But it was things that the Holy Ghost would lead me for, and I'd be surrounded by things that I shouldn't be surrounded by. Like, I grew up dancing, and I always wanted to be in a music video. I thought that was so cool because I was really good at dancing.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:04] I loved It. I was passionate about it and I thought it'd be awesome to be in a music video. But what if I get approved to go on this music video and then I have to be provocative or I'm surrounded by people that aren't Mormon and are drinking and doing all these things like, like how even though I won't do those things, how will I stay?

Clarissa Winter [00:06:25] How will that, how will God understand that? So I push a lot of things aside. I always wanted to try coffee just one day. Just like, I just want to try coffee. I love the smell of it. I like coffee flavored candy and I want to try it.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:39] My grandpa grew up drinking coffee and I love my grandpa. And I never judged my grandpa drinking coffee, but I did worry about him not being with us in the celestial kingdom because he drank coffee. And I remember as a kid praying that God could look at past that and look at all the good that my grandpa has done so he could be with us. Please, heavenly Father, let my grandpa. Please forgive him for drinking coffee. Please forgive him. We're not going to church anymore. He still wears his garments. Please forgive him.

Clarissa Winter [00:07:09] And so I was, you know, I was 17 the first time I tried coffee. And I. It was one of those, I think it was like one of those Starbucks cold drinks, like iced coffees. It was. And I got like vanilla flavored and it was amazing. It was so good and I wanted more and I tried the different flavors that they have because I was working at a gas station, so I would drink those.

Clarissa Winter [00:07:31] I loved it. And then I felt guilty about it. And I worked the, at the coffee bar in the gas station, they have an espresso machine and I would make drinks and I learned how to make coffee and I wanted to know if it was good or not. And I eventually tried it and I got curious and like, I experimented with different. Like there's so many things you could do with coffee. And also, like, I liked it. Like, it just.

Clarissa Winter [00:07:55] I didn't feel that guilty at this point. But then a girl that I worked with, that's Mormon, she saw me drinking coffee and she went and told a lady that we worked with, that is Mormon, that I was drinking coffee. And this lady made her way over to me to shame me and judge me and advise me not to drink coffee and made me feel really bad about it. And she didn't make me feel bad though. She just pissed me off. Because this lady also, like, is not perfect. She's had, you know, like, supposedly had an affair on her husband or, you know, like all these things which, like, I'm like, so who are you to tell me I can't drink coffee?

Clarissa Winter [00:08:35] You know, like who? Like, So I don't know. I just. Coffee became like my guilty pleasure. And for those of you who aren't Mormon understand how coffee is very much, like, frowned upon and a sin, and it's on the word of wisdom. You're not supposed to drink coffee or certain teas, black teas.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:06] And so drinking coffee is a big deal in the Mormon Church. Big deal. You cannot go to the temple if you drink coffee. You cannot. Like, there's so many things, it's bad. Like, you are a bad person if you drink coffee. Even though they don't say that you're a bad person if you drink coffee. But you learned that the person they're drinking coffee, that is bad.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:30] I remember just how much, like, me drinking coffee just became a problem. My parents eventually found out, like my mom found out. And she's, you know, she's disappointed in me. She's mad. She tried to stop it. And I try to stop too. Like, at certain points I would be like, no, I need to stay faithful. I need to be good. I need to be on track with the church. And things got really wishy washy for me. Like, one week I was gonna be full on, full, bored, good Mormon, do everything. And I would just try, like, give it my hundred percent. And the next week I'm like, no, I want to try this.

Clarissa Winter [00:10:02] I want to do this. I want to. But the whole time, I still believed in the church. Like, I still. So that went on for a long time. And it affected me so bad because I didn't know what I wanted. I hated that feeling of not knowing it would change every week.

Clarissa Winter [00:10:21] I didn't know how to embrace anything I liked. I didn't know how to embrace it and be confident and be fine with liking something. And then. Eighteen, I moved in with my grandparents. I. I lived with my grandma and grandpa for a little bit. And, you know, to. Because I really love my grandpa and my grandma, but my grandpa was just awesome. And it was nice living with them because I got my privacy, I think my space, my privacy. And I was trying to help them. I drive my grandma to church. She had ms, so she couldn't walk or drive very well, so I drive her to church every Sunday.

Clarissa Winter [00:11:03] And I started a new ward with a different bishop. And I ended up making the mistake of having sex again. And like, a few times. And eventually I started getting very depressed again, suicidal again, feeling shamed And I wanted to go repent because I thought that's. Maybe this will help me.

Clarissa Winter [00:11:27] And it's a different bishop, so, you know, hopefully, like, it's gonna go a lot better. Because this guy, this bishop, he was like. He grew up Mormon, but he also, like, fell out of the church. He would drink. He was a rebel. He got in trouble all the time, you know, like, so I was like, he'll be understanding because he had a. You know, he was not faithful his whole life. He did all the bad things, and he's going to be understanding.

Clarissa Winter [00:11:55] I ended up going to repent to him. And he was. He was very calm. He seemed, like, understanding, you know, like, he didn't have a happy face, but he wasn't mad. But he said that because I made this mistake again, I need to be.

Clarissa Winter [00:12:19] I might need to be excommunicated. Like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? What? Is this really that big of a deal? Is me having sex that big of a deal? Does it really make me that bad of a person?

Clarissa Winter [00:12:32] And of course, he had to go think about it and pray about it. And so the second time, I might be excommunicated. What's wrong with me? You know? And at this point, I really didn't. I don't know if I cared as much.

Clarissa Winter [00:12:57] I cared enough because I didn't want people to find out if it would ruin all my plans. Who would want to marry, like, what Mormon boy would want to marry me after finding I've been excommunicated? Who would forgive me for that? Who would?

Clarissa Winter [00:13:12] But I just dealt with it. Gained a lot of weight. I struggled with weight issues off and on because a lot of the medication that was on caused me to be really hungry. And I found out, like, if I drank soda, it would. Because I would get very jittery, and sometimes soda would calm me down. I don't know how I figured that out or why. But, like, so I stressed. And also, that's something I still do to this day. Like, when I get depressed, like, I'll eat my feelings. I'll eat. And I would gain. I gained so much weight, especially for how short I was.

Clarissa Winter [00:13:46] And, oh, I got fat. Shame, you know, a lot throughout my life. And that just made things worse on my. How I looked at myself and just made. Like, I just hated myself more. Like, it's just like, okay, now I'm fat and I'm extra ugly, and I'm about to be excommunicated. I'm about, like, why am I alive? Why am I Here. So.

A Suicide Attempt and the Moment That Stopped It

John Dehlin [00:14:23] How did you recover or what? Where did that lead you?

Clarissa Winter [00:14:32] I don't really know. I think I had to hit rock bottom and attempt suicide for things to really change my life. For the positive. I was so wishy washy with what I wanted. How to stay in the church or not stay in the church. I still believed in the church. It was a matter of like, do I want to continue? Because I didn't know if there was. I didn't think there was an option that I could do both. I could still be in church, be Mormon and still try out these things.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] Coffee, sex, whatever.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:01] Yeah. Or just, you know, like try out for. To dance in a music video or be surrounded by like people that are not Mormon, that drink and like, you know, like, it was just like, it was so confusing. I didn't know what was appropriate and was not appropriate. I just went based off of everything that I have heard and been taught. And it's never been that, yeah, you can be in those positions and still be okay. No, it's like, no, you get out of those positions, you don't hang around with those people. The Holy Ghost will leave you. You're not supposed to, you know.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:38] I didn't know that there was an option. It was one of the two. And I know that this route made me happy, like trying to just explore my life and see where it leads me to. And it wasn't bad things, it was just whatever it was. I wanted to, you know, be a makeup artist in Hollywood. I wanted to, you know, go move to la. I had dreams of moving to LA and just becoming something. I don't know what it was going to be, but I wanted to become something and I couldn't do that if I was Mormon. It just wasn't an option. I couldn't do both, you know.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:11] And so my mom, you know, I became more open with my mom, you know, like my mom and I were doing, you know, the best we could at this point. And I would share more things with her. And she told me like, she know, she just sat me down one day and she's like, you really just gotta make a decision. You just gotta either stay in church or leave. And I think her saying that to me, she thought I was going to be like, like I was going to choose. You're right, I'm going to commit to church and saying. But I thought about what she said and I took it very serious.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:44] I'm like, yeah, I do. I gotta just do one of the things. I can't be doing this it's not working for me. It's making things so much worse. And so I told her, I'm like, okay, I made my decision. I'm just gonna. Not gonna go to church anymore. She was heartbroken, of course. You know, she had every right. You know, she had. I think any parent that is in the church has the right to be sad. They have the right to feel.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:10] I understand it. Like, you believe in that. You raised your kids. You hope that they. She didn't, like, yell at me or anything or get mad. I think she was just sad. And that hurt. It hurts. You don't want to make your parents sad. I love my mom and dad so much.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Was this before the suicide attempt or after the suicide? Okay, before. So you tell them. You. You. You feel stuck between two worlds. A world where you can just have freedom and explore and find joy. And the church route, that just isn't working. You're not able to live up to it. And so you make that choice. To choose joy, basically. To choose fun or joy or fulfillment.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:50] I just. Yeah, I just chose happiness. I chose to just give it a try. I chose to breathe. I chose to just do this. Like, I mean, I'm going to. I'm not going to Celestial Kingdom anyway, so what do I have to lose?

Clarissa Winter [00:18:08] I'm not good enough. And at 18, when I was meeting with that bishop, I told him, I struggle with. You know, like the second bishop I struggled with. I have a testimony, but it's not helping me. I. There's something in me that just won't click. I can't. I'm not good enough. I can't. Why is it so hard for me to stay strong and just do the things I'm supposed to do? Why is it so hard?

Clarissa Winter [00:18:34] And I would pray every night all the. You know, for God to just please fix this. Fix this in me. Please help me to just all of a sudden, just have that moment where just clicks, and I just can do it. And I'm happy, and I am doing all the right things. God is happy with me. My community is happy with me. My parents are happy with me. Mormons are happy with me.

Clarissa Winter [00:19:02] And. And I prayed and I prayed and I read, did everything I was told to do. Like, what my bishop told me. He's like, read your scriptures every morning and every night for two weeks. And I promise you, it will. You know, your testimony will begin and you'll. And I did. And I didn't start to click, but I would start to try and convince myself that it was clicking.

Clarissa Winter [00:19:27] And I did this for months. I still struggled, but I would lie about it. I'd be like, oh yeah, things are going great. Yeah. I had, you know, I had a feeling that the church is true. You know, like I prayed and which I. But it was all me, like trying to convince myself, like it was trying to make my it click. And if the more I believe it, like just keep putting, you know, like you fake it till you make it and sometimes it will just somewhere it'll just click. That's kind of what I was doing. I was just concentrating on what was I was supposed to do, what was supposed to happen until it happened and it just wasn't working.

Clarissa Winter [00:19:58] And I remember one night just praying and shaking to Heavenly Father, like, please fix me, fix me. I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know what I'm supposed to do. What, like, what's wrong with me? Heavenly Father, will you please help me so I can come live with you one day and you can be proud of me.

Clarissa Winter [00:20:18] But so anyways. And I was always afraid because you know, you're told whenever you leave the church, the Holy Ghost is going to leave you. You're told that like you're taught about that so much, so much. And I was so afraid because I believed in my church so much that when I left, he was going to leave me. God was going to leave me.

Clarissa Winter [00:20:37] Just all the bad things are going to happen. I was going to stop receiving blessings. I was going to just. I don't know what was going to happen. I was so afraid that that's what was going to happen. I believed in that so much that the Holy Ghost was going to lead me and what now? You know. But at this point in my life, when I chose to stop going to church, I think I was 19 and I just was like, well, I have nothing to lose.

Clarissa Winter [00:21:10] I'm not fixed, I'm not cured. Let's just give it a try. And things started becoming. I started to breathe more, I felt like I could relax more. I ended up moving to Cedar City with my aunt and uncle who took me in, which were so awesome. I put them through so much, their family, like. Cuz I was. I was not stable. I was mentally not stable.

Clarissa Winter [00:21:34] I was trying so hard to figure out what I wanted in life. And I put them through a lot. I just want to say thank you to Jason and Cindy Winter and I'm sorry to Dakota and Clay Leighton Tyrell or what I put their family through. I hope they can forgive me. But Put them through and what, Just being emotionally unstable. Just.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] You lived with them for a while.

Clarissa Winter [00:21:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] And you were hard.

Clarissa Winter [00:21:59] They were so awesome. They tried so hard to help me.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] They were trying to save your life, basically.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:04] Yeah. They were trying to provide happy, stable, like, because like my uncle and aunt, like they were Mormon, but they like, at this point, I think they weren't, they weren't active. I don't know where they stood in the church at the time, but like, they just were. I think they wanted to provide me what life could be like and that it's okay. And they did provide that, but I was just so. Still just not mentally stable that I, There was a lot of. I came with emotions. I came with.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:34] I was just always constantly crying, being negative, staying out past curfew and yeah, like, just. I was annoying. I was annoying to live with. I totally understand it like now. Like if right now, if I had someone come in, I'd be like, no, nope, no, that's like too hard. Like, you know, like. But they tried. They were there for me. They tried to be there for me, but. And so, yeah, I condemn them for.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] I just have to say there's this idea, you square peg, round hole. Like, like those of us who are no longer active in the church just have to acknowledge if we're being kind and honest and empathetic and observant, that they are people for whom Mormonism works, works really well. Like their personality type, who they are, what their values are, what they care about, it works for them. But there are people for whom Mormonism or an orthodox religion or Christianity or whatever just doesn't work.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] And what I get the sense of is that you were trying to fit yourself into a mold that just wasn't you. It just wasn't fundamentally who you are and who you wanted to be and what you cared about.

John Dehlin [00:23:46] And it was driving you crazy, it was making you anxious, it was making you depressed, it was making you doubt your own self worth. And you were being self medicated, you were going to therapists, you were going to treatment centers. You wanted to end your life.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] Death looked more appealing than life because you were being asked to live a path to that just made you at your core miserable. Is that right? I mean, is that, is that an okay way to describe your adolescence? Oh, yeah, yeah. And so you're living with this family thinking they're gonna fix you, but it's just more of the same. It's trying to fit this square peg into a round hole.

Clarissa Winter [00:24:27] Yeah. And I didn't know if Like I didn't feel like. Like it's not like I felt like they were gonna fix me. I think that they were hoping they could.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:24:34] And they were very much positive like influence on my life and. But like at the time though I still was struggling with the knowing who I am, self confidence, self worth, mentally unstable, medication still like you know, just. I'm just went through so much. I'm trying to. I don't know how to move forward. I don't and wasn't trained for this. No one has helped me. I don't even think like they knew how to help me. They didn't know like the extent of all my problems totally.

Clarissa Winter [00:25:06] So. But it was a nice move because I felt like I could breathe, try things out. They, you know, they let me be myself and express myself and my cousin Tyrell is gay and you know, so they just like they had to open. They were very open minded and it just, you know, things were better. But I started out really good. It started out really good. You know, I started working in Cedar City, different restaurants and stuff. And I had a boyfriend at the time that we were not meant for each other. He was a good person, but like he was more hippie and earthy and I was more rebel and I think he was like trying to be Christian and I was not and But I really liked that he liked me and wanted me.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:05] I wish I liked him and wanted him as much as he wanted me. So I tried to do that relationship but it just didn't work out. And I sure I hurt him tremendously through it, you know, because being confused ended up sleeping with his roommate after we broke up and which the roommate is the person I ended up dating. But so at this point, like at this time I just was just making all these mistakes and not doing better. I was happier, but I was not. I was just still struggling and just got.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:41] This is when I started planning my suicide. So I didn't want to suffer during it. I didn't want it to be a painful suicide. I remember praying one night to God to just please come take me. I was laying, I was sobbing, I was shaking.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:09] Amount of tears that were coming out of my body and I was shaking. I had nothing to live for. The people I loved the most were just like not enough. And I remember praying. I said please come bring an angel to take me away. And we could just do this peacefully.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:37] You can heal me. You can heal my family. My family won't have to worry about me anymore. You have to deal with me and he didn't send an angel. An angel didn't come and take me away. So there's just like a lot going on. And I just was going crazy. I was. Couldn't.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:00] I got in my car and I was just going to go drive off a cliff and around Cedar Mountain, Brian Head. There's a lot of scary cliffs over there. Before I did that, I wanted to just give it another try, see if something can happen. I drove to St. George. I went to the temple. The

John Dehlin [00:28:25] temple grounds?

Clarissa Winter [00:28:26] Yeah, the temple grounds. And I just walked on it. I went, sat and I looked at the temple. I prayed to God, like, please. I was hoping I would get just something like some spiritual moment. Because I still believe that the church is true. You know, I just thought something was wrong with me. And so I was trying them. Like, I just sat at the temple, I prayed, I walked around. I just sat there. It was a little bit chilly and I couldn't even feel the cold breeze because I was so numb. I was, you know, dead basically. And I didn't get anything.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:04] And I just kept driving. I drove to different churches. I tried praying in random churches, parking lots. Kept praying to God. Like, I'm like, God, this is it. Like, you gotta give me something. This is it, You know?

Clarissa Winter [00:29:24] I think my aunt and uncle figured out what I was about to do. I would. I sent them a message and then I just kind of turned off my phone or I just started driving around. And my parents drove from Orderville to Cedar to try and help look for me. They didn't know where I was, and this was scary for everyone.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:44] So I just kept driving and I got to Cedar Mountain or to Brian Head, that area, and I was just driving fast. I was speeding. I was not slowing down around those curves. I was driving. Took off my seatbelt, and I found a place where it looked like I could drive off. It looked like no one would see me, you know, but it was like the perfect place where it gave me enough room to go park, think really quick, and then just drive off. It was very, like, steep.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:22] No way it would survive. I sat there and I think I sent a message to my little brother. How much I loved. He was only like 12 or 13 at this point, How much I loved him. And then I started thinking about my baby niece, Clara.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:59] No, I'm not gonna be there for her. I had all these plans to be the best aunt ever. And. I was just ready. I was about to drave off, and then this little girl, this little girl, she was maybe two at the Time. Two or three and almost three and I.

Clarissa Winter [00:31:27] It's just like this little voice so loud and clear, like, just was like, please don't leave me, Kwissa. She would call me Kawasa. Just like, please don't leave me. Kuwissa

John Dehlin [00:31:40] was your niece's voice in your head?

Clarissa Winter [00:31:42] Yeah, just. And I turned off the car and I just cried and I didn't do it. I didn't. That voice was so spiritual and so that's what I needed. It was, you know, maybe, you know, God's way of saving me or.

Clarissa Winter [00:32:06] That locker would have been so. She loved me so much. She loved, loves me, you know, like, loved me though. She looked up to me so much. She just imitated me. She does everything I did. I could do no wrong in this little girl's eyes. And I just didn't want to leave her.

Clarissa Winter [00:32:22] She loved me and I wanted to be there for her. I want to. And I was a little mad that like not mad at God, but I was mad. Like I didn't understand why God didn't help me with the whole like church part.

Clarissa Winter [00:32:42] It never occurred to me, maybe that was my answer. But he gave me an answer, you know, I still believe in God. I'm still spiritual. So I officially hit rock bottom and I backed my car out of the place that I was at and I drove home, but I was so tired and my car was like really trashy, like broken down car. And I didn't know how much gas was in the car. I didn't know how much gas I had left because it wouldn't show. It was always like on empty, even if it was full.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:19] So I just drove. But I was so emotional and I was very shooken up and I'm almost just ended my life. So I had to pull over and I just try to. I just pulled over somewhere, locked my car and I laid in my car and just cried for a while.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:43] I tried to take a nap. I just couldn't though. But so eventually I just. Just prayed that I had enough gas in my car and just drove home. And I made it back to Cedar to my aunt, uncle and my. I came in and I was crying and my aunt, you know, she sat me on the bed and hugged me. She didn't say anything. She just hugged me and I sobbed and I cried, cried.

Clarissa Winter [00:34:08] But the next day is where I was just still depressed. But I didn't give a crap. I hit rock bottom. I had this like overwhelming like confidence to just not give a crap what anyone thinks, what happens. Like, I Don't care. I'm hit rock bottom, you know, like, I just don't care anymore. And in which it helped me in a way. I ended up dating. I met my first ex.

John Dehlin [00:34:41] Okay, can I just say that. What it sounds like you did what Your. Your aha moment, though I don't know if this would have been conscious for you when you say I didn't care anymore. What that. What I'm interpreting you to be meaning is that you let go of trying to fit in that round hole. You basically said, I'm. I'm not going to try and fit in the round hole anymore. I'm. I'm a square. I am who I am. And I'm not going to let these religious rules or these standards or these perceptions or beliefs that some people value. I'm not going. I'm going to let go of them because they're. They're killing me. Is that what you mean by saying you don't care?

Clarissa Winter [00:35:28] Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was. And it wasn't just religion. It was just anything. Just. I didn't care about anything. Definitely didn't care about going to church anymore. I was done. Yeah, definitely didn't care about going to church anymore. I was done. Not gonna even try. I was completely mentally out.

John Dehlin [00:35:50] So what did you care about? What. What were you gonna do? What?

Clarissa Winter [00:35:55] I don't know. I don't think I had a plan. I was just woke up and went to work.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] You were just gonna live?

Clarissa Winter [00:36:04] Yeah, just gonna live. Just see what happens. I didn't. I don't think I. And that day I ran into my ex like that. I, you know, I ended up getting engaged to.

Unhealthy Relationships and Patterns of Self-Blame

John Dehlin [00:36:18] But someone who became a boyfriend.

Clarissa Winter [00:36:20] Yeah, someone who became boyfriend. He was an alcoholic. He was narcotics abuser. When I met him, he was sober. He was in college. He was doing great. I thought he was hot. He had muscles. He went to the gym. And he was funny. And I think I really. Okay, I'm innocent. Like, I. He told me he was an alcoholic and he was finishing up drug court and all these things. But I. No idea what that meant. I just knew I wasn't judging him. I was gonna be there for him. He doesn't judge me for any of the. My problems. And I was 19 and you know, he was. I think he was 24 at this point and no idea. I was just like. And he told me about relapse. I'm like, oh, I can handle. I'll be there for you.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] It sounds like it kind of gave you a cause, something to.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:09] Well, yeah. Well, also, he had a really messy, crappy, traumatic life, too, and I connected with him.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] You related to that. He didn't judge you, and it gave you a cause or some meaning, some purpose.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:26] Yeah. Don't really want to go talk about

John Dehlin [00:37:32] him too much because a relationship that didn't work out.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:35] Yeah, it was. Yeah. A lot of bad things happened. Yeah. So I don't want to talk about that moving forward, though, like. But I became stronger, you know, it just sucks that I ended up getting in a relationship. I didn't. Not like I had. No. I didn't know what I was doing. I went for the person that just. Just. It was hard to get out of that relationship. A lot of really bad things happened, Negative things happen. And I tried to survive. I didn't know how to tell anyone. I have. I had trust issues. I'm not used to telling people anything. I'm so used to bottling everything up inside and have friends that I would share things with. I. Every time I told any of my church leaders anything.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] They wanted to excommunicate you.

Clarissa Winter [00:38:43] Yeah. Like, even my parents, like, I wouldn't. I didn't want to tell my parents anything because I didn't want to disappoint them or, you know, make them mad or have them try and control the situation somehow. So I wasn't telling anyone anything. And also, it was embarrassing. I didn't want people. I was ashamed of what I was going through.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:01] Sorry. But I survived. I planned my escape is what you would want to call it. Got out of it eventually. And when we were broken up, he couldn't accept it. I still, like, I loved him. I still cared about him, hated him, still hate him.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:24] But I knew he was struggling, and he would send me pictures. He slit his wrists really deep, send me pictures. And he took. When he did that, he also drank a full bottle of nyquil, sent me the pictures, and then shut off his phone. And I went crazy because I didn't want to be responsible for this. And his family wasn't doing anything. Like, I tried to reach out to. Not of his family, certain family members, and I just felt so. Like they weren't. They were also, you know, certain family members were struggling with the same alcoholic, you know, problems, and they just were blaming everything on me.

Clarissa Winter [00:40:09] And it was just really hard going through this. And I eventually, you know, when I finally move forward from this, I ended up meeting, you know, another ex who was the complete opposite of him. It was also a very unhealthy relationship.

Clarissa Winter [00:40:37] I didn't know What I was doing, what's healthy, what's not healthy. I don't have anyone to help me. I don't have anyone to talk to about this. They'll just advise me to leave these people, which I know it's probably the best thing, but that's not what I want to be advised to. I just want someone to listen to me. I just don't want someone to hug me. I want someone to tell me everything's going to be okay. I want someone to tell me all the good things that they about me, like how I'm a good person, the things that they see in me, that God loves about me.

Clarissa Winter [00:41:09] I just want to. I'm so tired of being told all these bad things about me, like what I'm doing, bad. That's all I would hear even from my exes, you know, like, oh, they would remind me how I was.

Clarissa Winter [00:41:26] It was always my problem. I was always the problem in every type of relationship I got into, whether it was, you know, anything, you know, and I just was so used to it that I just accepted it. I had a really hard time standing up for myself. I had a really hard time being.

Clarissa Winter [00:41:53] I was also raised, you know, to be a certain way. You know, in the church, they teach you your womanly roles and duties and, you know, you respect the man. Like, you know, in the church, like, the man will have the priesthood and he'll have the final saying and everything. When he. If he feels like, you know, making tough life decisions, you'll have the final saying and you're supposed to just respect that and go along with it. And, you know, I became somewhat submissive to. In my relationships. I was not controlling. I was not wearing the pants.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Not assertive.

Clarissa Winter [00:42:25] Yeah. And I let them put me down. And I was just. Didn't know how to not. I just, you know, and then my, you know, my other example, he would make me feel so good about my values, like my Mormon values, even though I wasn't Mormon.

Clarissa Winter [00:42:47] He loved how good of a wife I would be and a mother I would be because I have these great traits, great morals. And when I didn't live up to those expectations, it was very much a problem for him.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:08] I thought something was wrong with me. Why can't. Why am I not. Why do I not want to cook? Why is it so hard for me to get up early in the morning? Like, I loved just sleeping. You know, I would go to bed late and I'd wake up. I wasn't necessarily sleeping in. I was still getting like, decent Hours of sleep, but it was just. I'd go to bed later, and I'd wake up later, and he wouldn't keep up with the household chores. You know, my. You know, like, I wasn't living with him, but I didn't go to his house and do his laundry.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:43] It wasn't done. It wasn't. I showed no interest in cooking. So I started forcing myself to do these things because I was hoping that it would click. It would eventually click, and I would be good at it, and I would want to do it, and I just did not.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:58] I still do not. I always wanted kids. Even after, like, leaving the church. I couldn't wait to get married and have kids. I just didn't, you know? But then I was like, you know, eventually start questioning, like, do I really want kids? Like, I don't know. I'm supposed to have them, right? Like, it's a sin if I don't. Shake here.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] I know it's. It sounds like once you let go of trying to fit the religious mold, you. You let go of something that. That wasn't healthy for you, but it was a part of you. And then it's easy to. Then once you kind of break free from your parents to fill that void with relationships and relationships with men, thinking that, um, they may help you fill the void.

John Dehlin [00:44:53] But if you already feel like you're not worthy, like, you're bad, you're gonna probably not have the confidence to find the highest caliber of men. You didn't graduate from high school, so you're not feeling. You know, you almost rush communicated twice. And so you're. You're not gonna have the confidence that.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] Or even the resources, because all these other eligible boys in the community, you would think they won't want me, and maybe they wouldn't want you because they're looking for a good girl, right? And you're, quote, bad girl, or at least you've been told that you were. And so what you've illustrated for us so compassionately and kindly and courageously is just how someone who is deemed unworthy and is shamed for so long and who doesn't fit the mold can get into these relationships that are harmful and damaging and can be abusive and.

John Dehlin [00:45:54] And so you're. It sounds like you're shaking because these were really bad, hard times that weren't good for you, but you were just kind of thrust into that. That life.

Clarissa Winter [00:46:04] I didn't know it wasn't healthy. I didn't know that what I was going through wasn't. It's not healthy. It's not. Okay. I didn't know what. I didn't know. I thought abuse was only physical or sexual.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] There's other types of abuse. There's emotional abuse, there's spiritual abuse, psychological abuse.

Clarissa Winter [00:46:30] I didn't know what was healthy and not healthy.

John Dehlin [00:46:32] Yeah,

Clarissa Winter [00:46:38] Sorry. I'm really shaky right now.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] No. And I'll just also say to the audience that we agreed that we wouldn't get into details beforehand. We agreed that we wouldn't get into details on the situation because it's triggering, it's traumatic.

Clarissa Winter [00:46:52] Yeah. I do want to talk about it because I am. I think I'm ready to. I'm ready to talk about it. I never talked about it, even when I in a relationship with Clinton, like, being his relationship.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] That's your boyfriend now?

Clarissa Winter [00:47:10] Yeah, Clinton is my boyfriend. Yes. We are not married. I say Mike, my in laws. I call his kids my step kids because they're my.

John Dehlin [00:47:18] He was previously married.

Clarissa Winter [00:47:19] Yeah, he was kids from that marriage. Yeah. He left the church, which ended up causing the divorce. And his kids. Yeah. Are being raised lds. But you know, Clinton. I'll get into how much I love him later. But just being in this healthy relationship with him and being able to talk about anything with him, like, literally, I don't have any secrets from this guy. We talk about everything. We have this awesome communication level. But I still wouldn't even. I still never told him stories and details of my past relationships, of, like, really scary things that happened.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:01] I never told him. I just didn't talk about it. It was hard to talk about. And my therapist, recently with me now, my therapist, she pushed me to talk about these things. I have to open up about these things because it, you know, it's. You need to get. You need to face these challenges, these traumatic events that happen to you and deal with them. And I did not want to do it.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:27] And she let me go at my own pace. She wasn't forceful, but it was what I've discovered about myself and how unhealthy a lot of. When I found out things that I went through were not normal and not okay, it hit me and it.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:53] I started getting panic attacks again. I hadn't had panic attacks since I was like 19. It just started happening again because I'm like, how. What? This isn't. I mean, I know it didn't feel good. I know that I didn't like these things that happened to me, but. Are you serious? That's not okay. You know, like, that's not normal.

Clarissa Winter [00:49:18] I didn't realize how bad it was. I learned to have empathy for myself. I had a lot of. I felt. I still sometimes feel ashamed thinking back on those relationships. Why? I. I am like a completely different person now. Like, I had no confidence. I still struggled with.

Clarissa Winter [00:49:43] I was more confident. I was more. Because, you know, at this point, you know, I eventually moved to Vegas. I had this awesome job on the strip at Planet Hollywood. Was living my best life as a waitress or server. Yeah, I. I still. I met so many awesome people at my job who are still my friends. They are more than friends. They are my people. They are my family.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:14] And I remember working at Vegas and meeting these people that are, you know, and them just being so open about everything. And they said all the swear words like I did. They were so. They were themselves. They were. They embraced themselves. They were weird. They were not ashamed of themselves. They had all had problems. They all had issues. And they didn't judge. They were just like, you know, they would laugh about.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] No problem. Okay, come back. Go ahead.

Clarissa Winter [00:51:03] Sorry. At a moment. They were just themselves. They were all kinds of people. They were gay, some of them. They were like just single moms. They were different nationalities, different cultures, different lifestyles. And they were also, like, badass, you know, sorry for you, Zamory.

Clarissa Winter [00:51:33] And I just felt like I loved the way I felt around them. And I started. At first, I was very shy and timid. I was afraid to be myself. But I started, you know, becoming myself and ended up making friends throughout this. And I remember I've always been one to explain myself. That's something I've always had to explain myself. So I always do that. And I remember just like catching myself explaining. I remember I don't even know what it was, but I was having coffee. And I remember somehow getting put in a position where I thought I'd explain myself for drinking coffee. And they were like, what?

Clarissa Winter [00:52:10] Like, they underst. They didn't understand me. And I, like, I was like, oh, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then. And I, like, had I started. Never became like a huge drinker, but I did experiment in it, like, you know, starting at around 19.

Clarissa Winter [00:52:27] Never became like a problem. I didn't really. I don't really didn't really care for it, especially with what I went through with my ex. I hated. Ended up hating alcohol. And so, like, I just remember, like, you know, and everyone at work knew I didn't drink alcohol, but I would always explain myself why or if I ever talked about a time where I got drunk and this. And I would always explain, but Like, I would explain myself. Like, I. But I don't anymore, you know, Like. And they're all like, why are you explaining yourself? We're, like, all, like, alcoholics here. You know? Like, I'm just really.

Clarissa Winter [00:52:58] You guys are so awesome. They didn't think twice about anything I said. They didn't judge. They were just funny. They are still. I. Oh, my gosh. I can't explain to you what this move to Vegas did for me especially. It was really hard being. I think I moved there at the age of 22. I moved by myself. I didn't know what I was doing.

Clarissa Winter [00:53:26] And I found a job. I found. I became very blessed with where I ended up living. And I just did it. I don't know how I did it. I was scared. I was so scared. But it felt good. It felt awesome. I didn't go to college. I didn't do those things or, you know, I didn't go away to college. I didn't get married. I didn't do all those things you're, you know, you're supposed to do. I was living. I was surviving. I was figuring it out, and I was judged. So much for moving to Vegas. I remember hearing things like, I was going to become a stripper.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:02] Like, that was like, a rumor, which really bothered me because I was like, who cares if I became a stripper? Like, why are you. Like, why are you judging strippers? Like, that's. That's fine. Like, that's like a nor. Like, that's fine.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:15] I think strippers are awesome. And just remember just hearing things, you know, through the grapevine about me and, like, assumptions being made, and I'm just like, what the heck? Oh, but I felt so free. I felt so myself. I started feeling like myself. I started to embrace myself. These people that I surrounded myself with were all the things you were not supposed to surround yourself with in the church if you were Mormon. You were not supposed to surround yourself with these people.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:42] But, oh, my gosh, did they make me happy. They were beautiful people. I saw the good in them. I didn't concentrate on these bad things, these flaws, these sins. I just saw the good in them. I saw how they were. They treated people. I saw when something would happen at work, everyone had each other's back. Like, it was just this one big family. I'm like, how is this possible? What is going on? This is awesome.

Clarissa Winter [00:55:11] My. But I still. At this point, you know, I was still struggling with who I was, how things are supposed to be. You know, I was one way with my Ex than I was with my friends. I was trying to be who he needed me to be, which made me very unhappy. I didn't feel happy, but I thought that's how I'm supposed to be. Right? You know, like, that's how I am supposed to be. But then when I was around my friends, I was a completely different person. Like, he would. I knew if he heard me the way I was talking with my friends, he would not be happy with me.

Clarissa Winter [00:55:48] But I was just myself. I was fun. I was funny. I was laughing. These people were awesome. And, You know, and eventually we. I was able to get out of that relationship. It ended. And that was hard. It was really hard for me because again, I felt. I felt again like I don't know who I was. I don't know who I am. I have no. And I work so hard to never feel that way again. I work so hard to be myself and be proud and just, you know, figure things out. But.

Finding Supportive Friends and Starting to Heal

Clarissa Winter [00:56:32] I. Just. I'm so grateful for my friends. They're the reason I stayed in Vegas. I didn't leave Vegas. My beautiful friends, he just had my back. They didn't judge me. And throughout this time, everything I was going through, I never told them. I never told any of them what I was going through and the things I was going. They knew I was going through something with, you know, the relationship I was in. They knew it was unhealthy, but I didn't tell them because I didn't know how.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:14] How was he supposed to tell people? I'm ashamed of it. First of all, I'm embarrassed. I already know what their answer is going to be. I don't want them to get out.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Get out of there.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:22] Yeah. Or like. Or to be like. Yeah. And I didn't want to be that girl that would complain. But then stay. I. So I just wouldn't tell them anything. And they still probably. They actually still don't know, like, the extent of everything.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:44] But, gosh, I just am so grateful for them. Like, the fact that I was taught to not surround myself with people like these people really pisses me off. That is not. Can you imagine if I did choose to just be unhappy and try to stay in the church and stay faithful?

Clarissa Winter [00:58:09] How I was not okay. I was not meant to be in the church. Whoever you want to believe or think. God, I was not supposed to stay at the church. That was not my journey in life. I realize that now.

Clarissa Winter [00:58:23] If I had stayed in it, I would never have found these beautiful friends. I would have never been open to these awesome, beautiful people, these great people. I would have surrounded myself with people that I don't like being around or who have judged me, make me feel bad, shame me.

Clarissa Winter [00:58:41] And these people, my friends are so awesome and beautiful and different and just love me. They love me. And I love. Like, I finally have that feeling of being loved. Like, people love me and don't have. They don't have these high expectations for me. They don't put me on this pedestal of, you better stay this way.

Clarissa Winter [00:59:02] They, like, would embrace all these. Like, I. We all screw up all the time. We're all human. We make mistakes. We do stupid things. And I would do those things, and they would laugh with me. They would pick me up. They would be like, oh, it's fine. I've done that. You know, how many times I've done that? You know, I've done way worse. You know, just always said the thing, like. And they would just say it naturally. It wasn't to make me feel better. They would just say it. And it just was awesome. And so many great relationships. And I just stayed in Vegas and I was happy with my people.

Clarissa Winter [00:59:35] These are my people. This is the place that made me happy. I still struggled with being single because I actually really love being single, because I felt free. I could sleep in however long I wanted to. I could do whatever I wanted, and I could do all the things with my friends if I wanted.

Clarissa Winter [00:59:59] And then every time I would date, I just would. There's. I would notice all the red flags, and it would scare me, and I never. And I always had this. I. And I stayed single because I thought eventually when I do get in a relationship, I am gonna have to give up a lot of things that I like. It's just. That's how relationships are. You're supposed to change, but it's a good thing.

Clarissa Winter [01:00:23] And that's just how you have to go into routine that you hate. And you're just gonna have to do it. You're just gonna have to get used to it. And I did not want to get. Become. That. Did not want to do that. So I just stayed single. I didn't get in a relationship because I did not.

Clarissa Winter [01:00:39] I would pick up on expectations that they had, you know, said, go on as a person. And with these. I'm sorry. With these people. And they would start to talk, and I could tell the expectations that they would have as me have for me being, like, their future girlfriend or wife or, you know, whatever. And I was like, oh, can't do that. Nope.

Moving Forward, Finding Love, and Building a New Life

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 1297

Clarissa Winter [00:00:30] And I lived in Vegas for almost three years, and I just started feeling. Just something in me didn't feel right. It felt like something was missing again. And I'm like, I have. I'm living in this beautiful city, like, just Sin City, but it's. I love it.

Clarissa Winter [00:01:00] What is missing in me? Like, there's something so. Like, I was so sad, and. And my job at the time, they got new management, and things started changing. They, you know, people were fired and people I loved and getting there, and, like, we weren't making as much money. I think there's more competition on the Strip. And things were getting really slow at work, and I wasn't making as much money. So I started struggling with money, which I have worked so hard. I take care of myself. I'm very independent. I love that feeling of providing for myself. I've always had to provide for myself. So it was hard.

Clarissa Winter [00:01:38] Starting to struggle with money again. And I didn't want to leave my job because that's where all my people were. I don't. I love that place. But just every summer that I lived in Vegas, I would go. In the summertime, I take a week off of work, off of life, and I'd go visit my parents in Orderville and watch Netflix and chill for a week and just escape reality. It was awesome. I looked forward to that every summer.

Clarissa Winter [00:02:07] So I planned on my trip again, and I couldn't wait to just do nothing. I didn't bring any cute clothing. I was not gonna see anybody. I was not. And I brought my makeup just in case, but that was not the plan. I only brought sweatpants, tank tops, yoga pants, you know, just all the comfy clothes and that's it. And the makeup, just in case. And I was down there, and Clinton and I had talked on Facebook and Instagram at this point. We're from the same area. He's from Kanab. And I remember when I was 16, he was a returned missionary, and he was in my ward at the time because he was working at a.

Clarissa Winter [00:02:51] At the Clear Creek Ranch or whatever it's called. And so he ended up coming to my ward. And so I remember him from that. And I had maybe, like, two conversations with him throughout that time. And I just remember him being really funny.

Clarissa Winter [00:03:04] And then, you know, fast forward to, like. And I was like, 25, I think I just saw him on my people, you may know, on Facebook, and I was like, oh, that's that one guy that went to my church. And I clicked on his Facebook and I stalked him a little bit. And I was like, oh, he's divorced. Oh, I think he left the church. Like, I was like, whoa, this is weird, because he. I remember him being like, just like one of those perfect, like, from what I gathered, you know, I was like, oh, what's his like? Because I remember he got married. I think I remember hearing that he got married in the temple, and I see he has kids, and so I was just like, oh.

Clarissa Winter [00:03:40] So I ended. Eventually, I didn't add him on Facebook right away, but he kept coming up on my people, you may know on Facebook. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'll add him. You know, So I just added him. Like, why do I keep seeing him? So I added him, and we didn't talk right away, but, like, I noticed he loved the office. Like, I loved the office. And I don't know, I just thought he was a cool person.

Clarissa Winter [00:04:02] And eventually we started talking. We had really good conversations. He was easy to talk to. He was cool, but I didn't think anything of it. When I went to Orderville, I had no plans on seeing anybody, but I started watching the Office, and I was like, oh, this is so funny. Like, I want to share these funny scenes with people. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that guy Clinton happens to just be 20 minutes away from me right now. Loves the office. So I was like, no, why would you message him? You're not going to meet up with him? He was like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to message him.

Clarissa Winter [00:04:33] So I sent him this clip of the office, and we start talking, and I ended up feeling like I want to hang out with him. I brought makeup so I could. Yeah, maybe it's an option. And we talked for days. Like, while I was there, I was planning on being there for, like, nine days. And we had talked maybe, like, day two or day three of me being there, and we just were having awesome conversations. We'd. I, you know, do that thing where you wake up, text that person, text them throughout the day. Like, Snapchat that person. And. And I kept hinting to him I was in Orderville, like, I'm not going to ask you out.

Clarissa Winter [00:05:07] Like, I kept hinting, like, oh, my gosh. We're like, this is fun, and this is a great conversation, but why is. Like, why are we not hanging out if we're not going to hang out? I don't. Or, like, nothing's going to happen. I just want to go do something else. Like, I don't want to be having these great conversations with you.

Clarissa Winter [00:05:26] So I think I told him, like, are we going to hang out or what? I think that's what I put. And he's like, yeah. So he invited me on a date to go to this amazing restaurant in Kanab called Sago. There's gonna be, like, this outside this concert. And, like, I heard there's really good food. And I told him. I was like, I.

Clarissa Winter [00:05:46] You know, I heard it was this really nice, fancy place. I'm like, I only have yoga pants and sweatpants and tank tops, like, so please don't dress nice. And he wasn't worried about it, you know? And he was working at the hospital in King County. He was running the family practice in the hospital down there because he's a pa. And I remember the day. Here's the day that we're going to go on this. We're going to meet up later that night. And I was starting to get ready. I had no makeup on. And, like, I was getting just about to get ready, and we got a call that my mom was being rushed to the hospital because she fell at her work onto her back as she couldn't move.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:28] And my. So my dad and I rush over, and we ended up going to Kanab, where the hospital is. And we followed the emergency or the ambulance there. And I texted him and said, are you working right now? Are you at the hospital? He's like, yeah. I'm like, well, you're about to meet me.

Clarissa Winter [00:06:46] And my mom, she's being rushed to the hospital and with my dad, and I have no makeup on, and I am not dressed. Like, this is not how I wanted to meet. And I'm sure I looked great with him. Whatever. That's not the point. I did not want to meet him like this, especially after I've just been crying, like, crying and all these things. And so he went. And when my mom got there, he went and introduced himself to my mom. He waited with my mom. I thought that was so sweet. Like, who does that? Who's nice like that and kind?

Clarissa Winter [00:07:16] And my mom fell in love with him. And I get there with my dad, and we are in the waiting room, and he made his way over to come introduce himself to me. And I remember when he came in, I got. My heart started pounding. I had butterflies in my stomach. And I was like, why is this happening? This doesn't happen to me. Like, this isn't. Like, this doesn't happen to me. I was like, why is this? And his beautiful blue eyes, like, his smile. And I loved his energy.

Clarissa Winter [00:07:42] And he met my dad and my mom. And my mom and dad just fell in love with him. And he still really liked me without my makeup on and the clothes I was wearing. And he texted me, like, I understand if you want to go home and be with your mom, but just know that the date is still on the table if you would like to join me.

Clarissa Winter [00:08:00] And I said, bye, mom and dad. Screw you, I'm going on a date. You know, they were so happy to go for me to. Like, they loved him. Like, they just loved him. Had. I've never had my parents love a guy so much before.

Clarissa Winter [00:08:15] And we ended up going on a date and. And I didn't have any expectations for this day. I didn't know I didn't have. I just wanted to have a really fun night that was gonna be good. And he seemed fun, awesome. And I. That's just what I wanted, just to have a good night. And oh, my gosh, that was hands down the best date of my life.

Clarissa Winter [00:08:35] He was so funny. He. I found out, like, he, you know, we started connecting on being ex Mormon in our stories, and I just had that. I've never had that connection with him before. And we just understood each other. We are both, you know, those bad people.

Clarissa Winter [00:08:52] And he was just so awesome. Like, conversation was just so easy with him. He wasn't judgmental. Like, it just felt so good. I had no gut feelings like I've had on other dates where I've gone on dates. And I had that gut feeling like, I shouldn't be on this date.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:09] It was just easy. And he knew I like scary movies and scary things. And he was like, do you want to go on a walk in the cemetery later? I was like, oh, my gosh, yes. And I got like, those big heart eyes. Like, I know that's so weird to hear, but, like, I love creepy things. And so it's just like, I've never had someone ask me to do something that I love. Like, you know, and it was just like, I was like, oh, my gosh, this guy.

Clarissa Winter [00:09:33] And we just had the best night, and I was so happy. And, you know, we had our first kiss that night and. And we just continued to see each other. And when I moved back to Vegas, I just really couldn't. I just wanted to continue seeing him, and I just wanted to kind of move back to Utah. Like, I was kind of, in a way, when my mom got hurt, as sad as it is to say, I was hoping that she would need me to move back to Orderville and she would need me to take Care of her. I was, like, I wanted her to be healthy and okay.

Clarissa Winter [00:10:09] Like, I just was hoping, like, she needed me so then I would have no reason to move back. Because I was struggling with moving back to Utah and because I couldn't leave my friends and my beautiful life there.

Clarissa Winter [00:10:21] But long story short, took a risk and I moved to Orderville until I figured out what I was gonna do and still continued dating Clinton. And things just were happening, like, awesome. Like, it was just. There was no struggle. It was just.

Clarissa Winter [00:10:38] I've never been treated like this before. He was so excited to see me. He was loved hanging out with me, and I felt the exact same way with him. And there was no. No problems. And it was just. It seemed meant to be, you know, and where I am spiritual, you know, I still am very spiritual.

Clarissa Winter [00:10:58] My relationship with God, you know, has stayed strong throughout all of this. I just. It felt meant to be. And I had been praying for what it. What was missing in my life. And it just seemed like it was Clinton. Like, it just started to make sense.

Clarissa Winter [00:11:13] It was so tough leaving Vegas. Oh, that was tough leaving Vegas. Saying goodbye to all those faces, those people who have been there for me were still there for me. Oh, that was the hardest thing, saying goodbye to them.

Clarissa Winter [00:11:29] But I was so excited for what was about to happen. I didn't know it was going to happen, but I had the feeling like. Something great was gonna happen. And. I didn't like, if this is gonna sound so cheesy. I hate cheesy moments. I hate them. But I didn't know love like this existed until I met Clinton.

Clarissa Winter [00:12:01] I didn't know that it was possible to be treated so well, to be treated like, he has never once snapped at me. And I know that. That. I know that that happens in relationships. And, you know, I get it. Like, we're all human and we.

Clarissa Winter [00:12:20] He has never once yelled at me in the. We've been together almost three years in June. Never once yelled at me. Never once put me down, has he never put me down. He is always anything. I can tell him anything. And he never judges me or shames me. He just talks to me and we talk about it. He never even makes me feel bad about it. He's like, that's awesome. You know, like, I had the same thoughts, too. You know, like, it's just the amount of communication we have and the relationship we have is just, like, meant to be. Like, soul mates. Like, this is how it was supposed to happen.

Clarissa Winter [00:12:54] And he's. My family loves him. I've never had my family love someone so much, and just the way he is, like, how he just came into my family and just how he treated them and how so comfortable he was and how.

Clarissa Winter [00:13:16] I've never had. I've never been so impressed with someone in my life. Like, the way he did it just so naturally. And, you know, he met my parents with me on, you know, at the same time. And, like, you know, he just was so nice. He was so humble and he was funny. But I love the way he treats people, all the people. He never loses his patience, even when people are, like, mean. You know, he just randomly. People. He still stays calm.

Clarissa Winter [00:13:42] He's still just, you know, he's a good person. And I eventually met his family. I became. I met his little sister, Hannah, and she's my little brother's age. And I'm going to get emotional. I talk about it stupid.

Clarissa Winter [00:14:06] She just was like my little sister. She was like my friend. She was so awesome. She was such a good. I was so surprised with how, like, confident she was, how it just seemed meant to be. Like, she was supposed to be my little sister. And then I met, you know, more of his family. And when I met Ron, his dad, and I remember hearing a lot about his story with leaving the church, divorcing his wife because he was gay, and he's tried really hard to stay straight. And just hearing his story and leaving the church and how he overcame, you know, thoughts of suicide and things like that, it just was so awesome.

Clarissa Winter [00:14:55] And when I met him, he was just so cool. He and Will, his husband, and they were just like. I just felt home. Like, I felt safe. And I felt like it was, like, meant to be, you know, like, I'm supposed to be with these people. And I don't know, like, life just started making sense. I just felt so happy. I felt like it was supposed to happen. It was meant to be.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:24] And then I, you know, I eventually met Clinton's kids, and he has four kids, which is, I think, scary for anybody to, like, go into a relationship with someone that has. He has four kids from his previous marriage. But I just, like. It just didn't. It didn't matter. Like, I was like. I remember being so nervous to meet the kids, but I remember when I met them, it just like, they were part of him and it. They were so. I just loved them immediately. Like, it. I never felt like I was trying to love them. It just happened. And they were so cute.

Clarissa Winter [00:15:57] And I love my role being a stepmom. I really like that because I'm not the parent. I just get to do fun things with them and be there for them. And it just. Everything started making sense. And I had a family. All of a sudden, I just felt so blessed. And I was told these things wouldn't happen to me if I left the church.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:20] I was told the Holy Ghost will lead me, but I'm still a spiritual person. I was, you know, basically you think, like, you kind of tie God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost into like, one person, basically. And I thought that was going to be gone. I was not going to receive any blessings. And all these bad things are going to happen, which I think is so easy to say because of course bad things are always going to happen to you. You're always going to be faced with trials in life.

Clarissa Winter [00:16:46] But it's not because I left the church. I think that's really easy to tell someone if we were to share all the bad things that happened to me after I left the church and, you know, share it to kids, that, you know, this is what will happen to you if you leave the church.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:00] Yeah, like, they're. Even if you stay in church, a lot of things are going to happen to you. But it's so easy to say it's because I left the church. I had a lot of things happen to me. It was like, not. That was never my thought was, oh, it's because I left the church. You know, it was. I just. I didn't understand what was going on. But I.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:18] I do now. Like, I understand now. But how come I'm so blessed? How come I'm still spiritual? How come my relationship with God is stronger than ever? How come I am blessed with this beautiful family I've gained? I thought I wasn't supposed to be happy.

Clarissa Winter [00:17:42] I thought all these bad things were going to happen to me because of the church. That was literally what I was told my whole life. Like, that is what's going to happen if you leave the church. You hear the church, like, conference from, like, you know, in conference twice a year. You always hear these talks.

Clarissa Winter [00:18:04] How come I'm so happy right now? How come I'm living the healthiest life I've ever lived? My relationship with my parents is better than ever. I have three beautiful nieces from my siblings. I have these beautiful step kids that I just love and I just treasure them in our relationship so much.

Clarissa Winter [00:18:30] How did that happen to me? I'm very grateful. I chose to try to live my life, however, without the church, because I don't know what would have happened to me if I Tried to stay in the church. I don't think I would have lived.

Clarissa Winter [00:19:00] I think God knew that. You know, being a spiritual person and talking about God, you know, like, God, I just. I realize now God, you know, was trying to save me. I don't believe in the church, but I. You know, I.

Clarissa Winter [00:19:18] I know it's the true church for a lot of people, but I'm so grateful that I. It was really hard being so young and having no one, having, like, just no support most of the time. Like, I didn't have a sibling that left the church with me. I didn't have a friend that was leaving the church with me. You know, I did it on my own, and I don't know how I did it. I don't know how I survived, but I'm so grateful. Finally proud of myself, you know, I'm so happy,

John Dehlin [00:20:06] So beautiful. Like, we're taught this idea that, quote, wickedness never was happiness, and you weren't wicked, but you were doing things that the church condemns as wicked. Right. I'm really struck. And just so listeners know, I'm giving. We're asking a lot today of Clarissa. She's doing a lot of heavy emotional lifting, so she wants occasional breaks to be able to just kind of breathe and regroup. So this isn't me trying to inject myself into the interview as much as just giving Clarissa a chance to regroup.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] But while we're on this, I was reminded so much of Joseph Campbell, who. I'm not sure if that means anything to you, but he's known as kind of the Hero's Journey, or it's called the Gift of a Thousand, the Face of a Thousand Heroes or whatever. But he's basically an academic that studied all the different stories and myths throughout time, and he's pulled out an arc of the hero's journey, and whether it's Jonah and the Whale or Luke Skywalker, you start at home, and then there's conflict, and you have to leave home.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] And then after you leave home, you fight your demons and you have to slay the dragon, and then you return home, and then you get the prize. And that's the journey of a thousand heroes. Right? That's what had to happen. And I was just waiting while you're in Vegas for this moment where you have to return home. And I'm just saying this really is the hero's journey, and you had to return home. And returning home was triumphant in a way, and you ended up finding the prize when you got back. It's all there.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:11] It was Clinton Dowse this whole time.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] Well, but let's explore that, because you deserve love. Plenty of people outside of Mormonism find love. But we're conditioned to think that there's no joy outside of the gospel when we're in it. And I'm going to say there's joy in the gospel, but I'm also going to say there's people for whom the gospel is toxic, and we've all got to find our path. And there's a healthy path in the church for some people. And for some people, the only healthy path is out, and you found it. But I wouldn't say that the treasure was just Clinton.

Clarissa Winter [00:22:56] I know.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] There's something deeper, right? There's something deeper.

Clarissa Winter [00:23:00] Oh, yeah. What's deeper?

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Tell us what's deeper.

Clarissa Winter [00:23:03] That was still the start.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:23:11] Because that's where things started making sense.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] Yes. No, it's a crucial part of your story. It's a great part of your love and your healing, and it is all crucial. But what's the deeper treasure? That's even. Because, you know, something could happen to Clinton. Like, you don't know what's the deeper healing that happened for you as an individual.

Clarissa Winter [00:23:33] So when I met Clinton, I was still broken. You know, I was still broken. Like, things I had to figure out. And a lot of things happened to me during our relationship. Not to us, but to me as a person.

Clarissa Winter [00:23:50] And it made me become very grateful for what I had. Like for Clinton, for example, because he just became a very positive energy, very comforting. I've struggled with feeling safe. I've always had that. I never feel safe. And he.

Clarissa Winter [00:24:14] Sorry, I'm really shaky. He just made me feel safe. He made me feel I could breathe. He was never the thing I stressed about. He was always the thing that comforted me whenever I was going through. Because I have anxiety. You know, I have my moments where I become unrealistic and think all of these horrible things are gonna happen, and I start to panic and I start to worry. And he just had a way of making me feel safe and calm and bringing me back to reality, reminding me everything's gonna be okay. And I'm not used to someone telling me everything's going to be okay.

Clarissa Winter [00:24:48] That's not something I've heard. I've heard a lot of opposites, that if you choose this route, all the bad things are going to happen. I grew up thinking only life was supposed to only be one way. And so it was just nice when just having that beautiful person be there for me and Then throughout this, I started becoming more confident, more.

Clarissa Winter [00:25:20] He helped me really learn to love myself. And it wasn't in a he. So, like, I've been put on a pedestal before where I need to live on these expectations, or if not, then I am going to be punished. I'm going to be like. Like, people are going to be unimpressed. They're going to be disappointed in me. He puts me on a pedestal where I can literally do nothing wrong. Like, it's just everything. I. I'm proud of you. And it's just. He would notice all the insecurities, and, like. Like, my insecurities would come out and he would question me on them and, like, why. Why do you feel that way about yourself?

Clarissa Winter [00:25:54] Or what makes you feel that way? And he never put me down. I've never been around someone, you know, besides my friends that just never put me down. And it was just awesome because as

John Dehlin [00:26:06] a youth, you were always struggling to be worthy. You were always struggling to. To fit in, to. To stop the behaviors that brought you joy, to fit the mold. And so it was. Your whole teen years was just this incessant pattern of unworthiness and unconditional love and striving and hustling for love and worth and acceptance. And it sounds like you learned something different about true love from Clinton. And what was that?

Clarissa Winter [00:26:39] Oh, I don't even know where to begin.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] Like, that your worth is.

Clarissa Winter [00:26:43] It can be healthy. It can be this good. It could be this magical. It can be a fairy tale.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] What have you learned about your worth?

Clarissa Winter [00:26:52] That, like, just. I really. So having someone really think so highly of me and never put me down just made me start to, like, become better with myself and really learn to love myself and. Because at this point, you know, I did love myself, but it wasn't fully, like, I didn't embrace it. I had confidence, but I didn't have full confidence. I had, you know, and it was just being nice being around that all the time that it started to become.

Clarissa Winter [00:27:32] It just started to become normal for me. Like, it started to become a habit to start being happy and being positive and having this positive energy. And, you know, I ended up moving in with him and being in a house that I was so safe. I always felt safe. I always, you know, could do whatever I wanted. I could watch as much TV as I wanted. I could sleep in as late as I wanted. I could clean whenever I wanted if I didn't want to clean. You know, if I wanted to not cook, I. I don't cook. Like, you know, I do not cook, and he loves me and just to, like, be myself.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:06] So, like, when I met him also, you know, I always had that fear of when I become in a relationship with someone, I'm gonna have to give up a lot about myself. I'm gonna have to change for this person. And I remember one day he came home to me from work, and he's like, I was just talking about you at work, and I was telling them how you were going on this path. And I'm going on this path. We're both going down this path, and we meet each other, and we're still going down the same path. And neither one of us are changing or moving.

Clarissa Winter [00:28:36] We're still ourselves. We're still being ourselves, and we're doing it with each other. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you're right. Like, I have never felt this way before. Like, I've always ended up giving something up or hating what the other person was doing or, you know, adjusting to their lifestyle. And I started to become with okay with being myself and understanding that I don't have to change. I don't. It's okay to be myself. It's okay to love the things that I love.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:04] Why do I have to give up anything of myself? Like, why do I have to change? Like, who. Who said that? You know, And I just became, like, happy and more confident, more comfortable. My friends could see that my just people in my life noticed a big difference. Like, just a lot of weight lifted off my shoulders.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:29] And then I. You know, eventually we moved to northern Utah, and I went through a really big depression again. And my therapist, you know, has helped me learn a lot about self, love, self worth, all those things. So it's just like through this whole experience in the last three years, I've learned I've grown a lot as a person.

Clarissa Winter [00:29:51] And I was very hurt. I was still. I was struggling with actually, like, hating the church. I had a lot of resentment. I had a lot of bitterness. I was pissed. I was so mad. A lot of hate.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:06] I was still struggling with forgiving a lot of people in my life. I was struggling with getting over the past. It still was with me. I would get triggered by all kinds of things. I always constantly thinking about things that have happened to me, and I have finally. Finally to that point where I have learned. It's like, I feel like I went through these things for a reason. Like, it really feels like it. Like it makes sense.

Clarissa Winter [00:30:36] And I just. Like, I just have made all these things that have happened to Me, like, a positive thing. Like, I've embraced it and I've learned from it, and I've grown so much from it. And I feel like I'm a better person because of it. I'm way. Like, I'm not judgmental at all. I am so understanding. I don't have expectations of people. I don't judge people.

Clarissa Winter [00:31:01] I do. I. You know, it is. I love it. It is hard for me to judge people that are mean to other people, how they treat people. I do judge that, but I still try to have an open mind. I try to have compassion towards those people at times, not all the time, but I have an understanding for how humans are and how we all have a story and how we are the way that we are. And I've just really come to, like, a really good place in my life where I just. I don't know, like, it just starts. Everything starting to make sense. And.

Clarissa Winter [00:31:42] And like, with my step kids, they're being raised LDS and as are my nieces and. And Clinton and I support that like, 100%. But it does become difficult at times, like, with my step kids, because the things that they are taught, which, you know, like, their life needs to be a certain way, and Clinton and I are not doing that.

Clarissa Winter [00:32:04] It's hard for them to understand. And they don't get it. They think that we're doing bad things. And I just know the amount of, like, I see growing up feeling guilty and feeling so worried. I see that on their face sometimes. Like when they come home and they will say something and they'll be ashamed of a question or something that they did, and they'll just feel so, you know, things that they're going through in the church, like, things that they come home and tell us, and I just want to take that away from them. That pain. I just notice that, like, I get triggered. I get triggered with that look on their face, what their little hearts might be feeling.

Clarissa Winter [00:32:44] And I remember, like, I recently made a friend, my beautiful friend Allison. I hope she doesn't mind me saying her name. She's Mormon, and she is awesome. She is what I believe is the perfect example of a Mormon. She loves her church. She is faithful. She does. She goes to church. And she also is accepting to all the lifestyles. Like, she knows I'm ex Mormon. She met me at a time where I was still bitter and mad and I held a lot of anger. And she was the person I could talk to about a lot of issues I was going through and I was telling her about.

Clarissa Winter [00:33:22] I Feel so bad for my step kids. Like, these, like, they're like, they are guilty about this and that. And I just worry for them. I worry how things are going to happen for them. And I, Because I went through this, I just think automatically that all these things are going to happen to them. And she told me, which I thought was really cool, especially coming from someone Mormon. She's like, do you ever think that you went through all these experiences in the church, like all these negative experiences in the church so that you could be there for your step kids?

Clarissa Winter [00:33:52] And I, like, caught goosebumps and it just like something. I was like, whoa, maybe that is true, you know, like, also, that's so cool. Like, you're not supposed. I feel like you're not supposed to, like, say that to me because of your beliefs or, you know, like, opposite. Like, you know, I don't know. Like, you know, like, you're. I just thought that was so cool. Like, she said that to me and that meant a lot to me. And something in my head clicked and I was like, oh, maybe literally, what if I went through all these things as a kid? Because, like, something may happen to a child in my life that whether they.

Clarissa Winter [00:34:29] Not even to do with whether they leave the church or not, it's just like, if they have problems in the church, I want to be there for them and I want to be a positive influence on them. And it just kind of made sense. I don't know, like, something in it just felt right and, you know, and it is hard co parenting and it is hard having, you know, the other parents being Mormon, very strict, and then us not being that way.

Clarissa Winter [00:35:03] It is very hard. I know it's hard on the kids at times because they're confused. They're confused. Why, you know, they're, you know, they're reminded that, like. They're reminded that what, like Clinton and I do is bad. But that's okay. You just. You don't do them. You don't do those things. And I don't like the word bad. It's a trigger.

Clarissa Winter [00:35:29] Why are we bad? Why are we. Okay, so we're not bad, maybe, but why are the things that we are doing bad? How is that? How.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Like living together, for example.

Clarissa Winter [00:35:39] Yeah, we both drink alcohol. We drink coffee. Coffee's the biggest thing. I like scary movies. Somehow that's portrayed to them in a negative way. And a lot of assumptions are made. A lot of assumptions, you know, like. And I am understanding about it to an extent, but I'm also. I hate how the Kids may look at us or feel.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] You worry about that.

Clarissa Winter [00:36:07] Yeah, I do. And I know Clinton really struggles with. Because when his dad left the church, when he decided to be gay, save his life, you know, Clinton really was worried about his dad's eternal salvation. What's gonna happen to him after he was dead. And he said that that feeling was so real, he just worried.

Clarissa Winter [00:36:32] And I just. I. And Clinton's like, I really think that my kids pray at night and think at night about what's going to happen to me and that I'm not going to be with them and, you know, when we die and because they're sealed to their, you know, their stepdad and their mom now, you know, you know, like, so it's just sad. It's sad when it comes down to that.

Clarissa Winter [00:36:56] Why can't it both? Why can't it all be okay? Why does it have to be one way or the other? Why can't. Why does it have to be so black and white? Why can't it just be awesome? Why can't it be okay? Why can't it be.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:13] I feel so bad, you know, just like. Like the. My. The kids, what they'll share with us, like, you know, and the questions that they have. And, like, you know, I think they go home and they, you know, they say these things and. And they learn in church, you know, that they're not. Like, all these things are not okay. And then they struggle with. They struggle with it. They know. They're confused. They don't know.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Yeah.

Clarissa Winter [00:37:37] And I don't. And, you know, they're not the age where they can understand that Clinton and I are good people. And if heaven really does exist, we're gonna go there with them. We're. You know, God's gonna, Like, in my. If everything I've been taught about God and Jesus, you know, all these stories I've been taught, we're gonna be okay. I don't think I'm not gonna go to heaven because I drank coffee or had premarital sex. I really doubt that. I really hope that all these good things I've done on this and just being a good person will be enough.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] Sure. So. This story's so epic. Like, it is so beautiful to see you find love, to. To see you find Clinton, that you've been accepted into this wonderful family. All that's beautiful. And I. And I. I do hope, or at least personally I see that the biggest discovery of all for you might be just feeling, deciding, or claiming your own worth. You're worthy. You are Worthy of love. You are good. And that you. That it's not even Clinton that ultimately grants that to you. You may have. He may have helped.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:00] You see, that definitely help. But.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] But it. But it's. But that's what I want to take from this personally.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:06] Yeah. Is I learned over time that, like it. I am. I have to be my number one fan. I can't. It can't be Clinton. Clinton can't be my number one fan. Clinton can't. Oh, you know, always be there for me. He can't always help. Like, let's just say so. I just had to find. Because I remember becoming in a relationship with him. I was so.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:31] I was so afraid of disappointing him, especially the amount of respect and how much I looked up to him and how much I loved him. I just was afraid of disappointing him because I always am disappointing people. And I just had to learn over time. Like, I. It's okay if you disappoint people.

Clarissa Winter [00:39:48] Be okay with it. Like, I am okay with who I am now. I love myself. I am humble. I. I've accepted. I have anxiety and sometimes depression. You know, I will most likely have it my whole life. I've embraced that, you know, like, being called a slut and a whore. Like, all those things being called weird. I've embraced that. I have embraced it. And I will call myself a slut and a whore. And I love it. You know, Like, I'm like, you know, when people are judging me, like, oh, yeah, I'm a slut. And then.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] What do you mean by that?

Clarissa Winter [00:40:22] I just. Well, I feel like a lot of people probably get offended me saying that, you know, because I know that slut and whore are used in negative ways and to. And they are used in ways to describe women or men, you know, in a bad way. Like, it's very much a shaming word.

Clarissa Winter [00:40:40] But I choose for myself to look at it as, like, not a bad thing. Like, I have had premarital sex. I have, you know, slept on the first date. I've explored my sexuality, and I am okay with it. A lot of people do this. There are so many people that do this.

Clarissa Winter [00:41:01] And why not? I own it. Like, if that's what defines a slut or a whore, then that's what I am, and I am proud of it. And I don't care. Like, I don't. Like, I had to learn how to look at words and not be offended by them and not have them hurt me.

Clarissa Winter [00:41:19] So I will. You know, you'll often hear me joke about things like that, and it's in a positive way. It's just making a joke out of things and just embracing it. I've always been weird. I've always been silly and stuff like that. But, you know, and I started just embracing that. And the more I embrace those things, the more confident and comfortable I became with myself. I don't explain myself anymore.

Clarissa Winter [00:41:39] I just am who I am, and I own it. And I am okay if people don't like that. I've also noticed where I am now, and the people that meet me now, like, they end up, like, really liking me, and they find comfort in me. They like that I don't judge. They like that they can. They can tell me anything. Like, things that they can't tell, like their friends, their spouse, or their family. Like, they just really need to talk about something. And I love that they come to me because I will listen and I will just tell. Like, you know, like, they just somehow have that feeling like they can talk to me about it.

Clarissa Winter [00:42:15] And they always say, thank you. Thank you for talking me about it. And also makes me sad that that's how. Because these people are Mormon, like, the ones I'm talking about, it just makes me feel sad that they feel like they can't talk about it with anyone else. They don't know how to. Like, I, you know, what will happen if they talk about it? What kind of problems will they end up having?

Reclaiming Identity, Sexuality, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [00:42:42] You know, it sounds like all those years of sexual shame and repression, you. You sort of are claiming your power and saying, I'm not gonna let sexuality define me. Shame me. It's not gonna be this dirty little secret anymore. I'm gonna. I'm going to embrace who I am, all parts of me, including my sexuality, and. And no longer live in guilt and shame.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:11] Yeah. And I have grown and become so, like, really happy with it because, like, I, you know, being raised how. And, you know, having this expectation of how my life is supposed to be, supposed to be, and having my number one goal being getting married in the temple, having my number one goal be to start a family and be faithful. You know, like, all those. Those goals.

Clarissa Winter [00:43:33] And even not just even. Even without, like, the. Without religion, society, you know, has expectations of how, you know, you're supposed to become. And so I think a lot of people are trapped in that mindset and they're afraid to, you know, they start to train themselves to become, to start living their life and get on a path that this is how it's supposed to be. And some of that really works for People makes them happy, and that's awesome. But I think some people struggle with that, and they don't know what to do.

Clarissa Winter [00:44:00] And I struggled with that, and I still sometimes struggle with it. But I. I'm so happy. Like, that's what I concentrate on. I was like, wait, why do I have to do these things? Why should I do the. You know, like, do I have to have kids? Are you sure? You know, do I have to wake up at a certain time? Why? Says who? Do I have to. You know, it's just like, wait, why can't I have premarital sex? Wait, why can't I live with my boy? You know, like, just all these things. And the more I started becoming okay with it, the more happier I became, the more confident I became, the more proud of myself, the more comfortable I was with myself.

Clarissa Winter [00:44:40] Like, I wasn't ashamed of myself. Like, I'm not ashamed of myself, which is, like. I never knew that that was a feeling. I'm so used to, like, shaming myself, you know, and now I'm just, like, so happy, and I feel free. And whenever I go through something, it's. I go through it in such a healthier way. I have a lot of work to do with, like, my anxiety. You know, I'm learning a lot, and I'm getting help for it, but I'm learning how to not judge myself. I'm learning to forgive myself, be nice to myself, be kind to myself. And I tried to do that for others, and I really.

Clarissa Winter [00:45:23] I just want everyone to get on that path, too. Especially now, being here and knowing that it can happen for someone that struggled, you know, struggled. Struggles. Struggled with mental illness their whole life, like, it is possible.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] So for. So for anyone out there who. Young teenage girl, teenage boy, young woman, young man, old man, old woman, whoever it is, Somebody's caught in religious shame, sexual shame. They're lgbt. They have premarital sex. They masturbated, they looked at porn. They lived with the boyfriend or girlfriend, whatever it is, they're caught in that shame spiral. They aren't sure life is worth living, or they're just severely depressed or anxious. What message do you have for them?

Clarissa Winter [00:46:18] Breathe. Know your worth. God is not mad at you. I hope you know this. And it's gonna be okay. And it really freaking sucks, and it's going to continue to suck, but it's going to be okay. And you will get through this, even though it feels like you're literally not gonna get through this. And there seems to only be one way to get through it, which is staying in the church or doing all the things you're supposed to do, read your scriptures, stay faithful, stay, you know, like all those things that the church tells you to do, it's okay if you don't do those things.

Clarissa Winter [00:46:51] I hope that you choose to love yourself. Choose to do what makes you happy, Put yourself first. When you put yourself first and take care of yourself first, you'll be able to be strong for others and be there for others and be able to take care of others.

Clarissa Winter [00:47:09] I really hope also, like, for the Mormons that are watching, I really hope that you can understand that the church isn't for everyone. You can still believe in your church. You can still believe in all those things. And if you have, like, someone in your family, whether it's a child, spouse, a sibling, someone's falling from the church.

Clarissa Winter [00:47:37] So where I have come as a person with my beliefs in God, I always fall back on. Okay, let's just say the church is true. Let's just say the church is true. Isn't God supposed to be the most understanding human in the world? Like, God literally has walked my path with me. He has felt every single emotion I felt. He saw everything I went through. He felt those feelings with me. He understands why I am where I am today.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:06] I feel like whatever that story may be, you're gonna be okay. You're gonna make it to. Whether it's the celestial kingdom or heaven, whatever that may be. I don't know. You know, it's gonna be okay. He's gonna notice all the good things that you have done. And you can learn from the mistakes that you've made. You can learn from the way you've treated people. You can.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:26] I just hope everyone just chooses to love and be there for the family. It is gonna be hard. I understand that it's hard. I just really hope that we just choose to love each other and accept each other.

Clarissa Winter [00:48:39] And you don't have to agree with it. You don't. But you also don't need to put people down for. Is that what God would do? Put you down? Aren't you supposed to be a good example? Does being a good example mean forcing religion and telling them how they should be, Telling them this is the only way you're supposed to do it, this is how God wants you to do it? Or is being an example just loving the person, accepting them, not caring if you agree with their lifestyle or not, but just continuing to just be awesome with them, like, high five them, hug them, don't talk about the Bad things that they're doing.

Clarissa Winter [00:49:15] Don't talk about it. Be there for them. Be a positive influence on them. Like just congratulate them. Tell them something positive about themselves. You know, whether it's like, oh, I saw you helping the old lady down the street, you know, like that. That was awesome. Good for you. I respect you. Like, things like that. Why do we have to concentrate so much on what we're doing wrong?

Clarissa Winter [00:49:39] How come in my experience and a lot of Mormons experience, how come we're so concentrated on the wrong that we're doing? Is that all that God sees? I think we forget to remind each other the good things that everyone, you know, we're doing the good things that God sees. We forget to say, tell that to children. We forget we automatically shame the children.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:05] And they're learning to be shamed and they're learning how to judge and be judged. They're learning how to feel guilty, they're learning how to not feel worthy. They're learning how to be afraid for their eternal salvation. I just, you know, like, I think that there's so many way. I don't know the, I don't have the answers. I feel like there's ways of going about doing those things. You could just still just, you know, just get, you know, it can still hurt you. It can still hurt what your kid or your sibling, your spouse is doing. That's not what the church wants.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:39] I just hope everyone can find a way to like, know that it's gonna be okay. Concentrate on the good in people and just be happy. Like, let God worry about it in the end. It's not for you to worry about. I know it's hard, but like, I honestly believe all good people will be all right.

Clarissa Winter [00:50:57] You know, it's just gonna be okay. Even the bad people might be alright too, you know, like it's. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have the answers. But I just, I, you know, I did take my name off the church records.

Clarissa Winter [00:51:12] I believe it was September 10, 2018, if I'm correct. And I know that was really hard for my family, you know, specifically my, my parents. Because, you know, it does mean that ever getting technical. I probably, you know, am not going to be with them in the celestial

John Dehlin [00:51:31] kingdom, you know, if you believe that.

Clarissa Winter [00:51:32] Yeah, if you, if you believe from their perspective. Yeah, from a Mormon's perspective.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] Although there are Mormons that, that are more flexible in those beliefs. Not all Mormons like my mom. She's like, yeah, I believe in the church But I believe you're going to be with me. And I've been excommunicated.

Clarissa Winter [00:51:47] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] She just has a flexible view of the eternities.

Clarissa Winter [00:51:51] Yeah, yeah, like. But I know a lot of people don't know how to think that way. They haven't been trained to think that way. But I don't worry about that. I think that we're all going to be together. I think I'm going to see my grandpa again one day. I'm going to hang out with him in heaven. I miss him so much. He, you know, he died. Both my grandparents died in the same year.

Clarissa Winter [00:52:19] Another thing I'm very grateful for. Speaking of my grandpa, he had a really hard life. He became a convert. He married my grandma. He took her to the temple because that's what she wanted. And he struggled with the church. You know, he thought God hated him.

Clarissa Winter [00:52:36] He thought God was mad at him. He was mad at God. He still wore his garments. I think he still believed in the church. I'm not quite sure where he stood. We never really talked about them. But he drank coffee and he swore and he watched R rated movies. And he was one of the most special people in my life.

Clarissa Winter [00:52:59] I could have easily judged him and looked at the things that my grandpa was doing wrong. I'm so grateful I didn't. And I'm so grateful for my grandpa. I'm grateful for that connection I had with him, that relationship I had with him. It's very rare.

Clarissa Winter [00:53:16] So cool. I'm grateful that I didn't choose to commit suicide because. And I'm grateful that I did move back to Utah because when I did, my grandma passed away. And I was able to say things, you know, be able to be there with her when she, you know, during the week that she was dying, say things to her. And I was also able to be with my grandpa when he died. And I had a very. It was a very traumatic experience, but it was very special and spiritual for me. I was with my grandpa when he died. I was alone with him.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:01] And finding him dead and not breathing. As much as it sucks and was hard. I'm so grateful that my grandpa and I got to spend the last few minutes of his life with each other. You have no idea how special that is to me. I hope you heard me when I was telling him how much I love him and all the things, good things he's done in his life and how grateful I am for my hope. He heard me.

Clarissa Winter [00:54:36] I just. I'm so grateful I gotta be with My grandpa, like, that is such a. Something you can never take away from me. And I'm going to be with him in heaven, not going to be separated. No one's keeping you away

John Dehlin [00:54:57] as we're kind of wrapping up. And this has all been so wonderful and so healing, and I know it's going to help so many people. So thank you. Thank you for sharing such vulnerable things. I want to end with something kind of fun. We talked about your Instagram account and your. If anybody kind of Facebook stalks you or Instagram stalks you, they're going to see these interesting photos. You said you love scary movies.

Clarissa Winter [00:55:27] I love scary movies.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] And a big theme has been kind of sexual empowerment. And what they'll find if they go to call me Mrs. Krueger on Instagram and are a bunch of boudoir kind of photos that deal with kind of scary movies.

Clarissa Winter [00:55:45] Yeah, they're. Yep. It's.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] It's kind of sexy, scary kind of photos. Yeah, talk about that. And just. Yeah, talk about that.

Clarissa Winter [00:55:54] I never would have been able to do this if I was Mormon. I've always loved scary movies. And at one point in my life, I got into fitness at a bikini show. We'll never do that again. Oh, my gosh. It's not for me, but I did it. And I got a lot of attention when I did that bikini show because I won. And I got a lot of positive things coming at me, but it wasn't what I wanted because I had that pressure of staying fit and, like, you know. But a photographer. Photographer reached out to me to do a fitness photo shoot, and I was like, I don't want to do that, because everyone does that, and I hate that.

Clarissa Winter [00:56:27] I want to do scary movies. Can we do scary movies? And he was like, okay, sure. And I just. I don't know, like, how I came up with these ideas. I was just like, how could I make scary movies sexy? Like, I've always wanted to do, like, photo shoots. I always thought that would be interesting. And it was so awkward, my first photo shoot, but I was just so happy to be doing this. And when I saw the photos and it was like, my creativity, like, my art coming to life, it made me so happy. I was so proud of it. And I started getting attention on Instagram from my favorite scary, horror, like, horror pages, my favorite scary movie pages.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:08] Even Eli Roth noticed some of my photos, which was, like, awesome. And I just loved how happy it made me. And it wasn't forced. It was. I didn't have, like, any goals with it. I Just kept doing it, and I started becoming more comfortable with being like. Because I love. I've always loved those, like, boudoir photo shoots, like, lingerie. I've always thought that was so beautiful.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:34] Saw nothing wrong with it. It was just, like, you know, I loved it. And I started becoming more okay with it, more confident in that, and just really, just, like, at first, I struggled with who's gonna judge me, who's gonna see me, who's. And, like, all the people are gonna see me and judge me. I'm okay with that. And I just started doing it, and it really took off. More photographers started reaching out to me. They love my.

Clarissa Winter [00:57:58] My style. And I just kept, you know, just kept it up, and it's going really good still. And I'm just really proud of it. And I'm proud that I've. I'm, like, happy with it. I'm proud of myself. I have no shame. I know that people are gonna judge me. I know that. But I'm okay with it. Like, I also get a lot of positive feedback for it. There's a lot of, like, you know,

John Dehlin [00:58:23] like, 10,000 Instagram followers.

Clarissa Winter [00:58:25] Almost 12,000.

John Dehlin [00:58:25] 12,000 Instagram followers.

Clarissa Winter [00:58:27] Yeah. So. And they all love it. And they, like, I have this, like, really cool system on my Instagram, which is, like, awesome. Like, I never. I don't know, it's just, like a new thing. It's kind of cool, and I love the kind words. I. You know, I focus on all the positive feedback I get, and it's just really cool. I love that people really look forward to what I have in store next. Like, what new photos? You know, what was she going to bring out next? And I really like that. And I feel proud of myself, and I feel happy, and I'm so grateful that my boyfriend is, like, proud of me and happy, and he supports it. Like, you know, he's involved with it, and it's just awesome. Like, I never thought this day would come where I supported myself, you know, and also have the support. So it's awesome. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] Yeah. So if people want to check it out.

Clarissa Winter [00:59:18] Yeah, call me. Mrs. Krueger, if you're a prude, maybe not. Just beware.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] How do we describe the photos?

Clarissa Winter [00:59:28] But it's like, yeah, it's sexy. It's, you know, what some might think is slutty, but it's also, I think it's, you know, it's art. It's my art coming to life. I'm in. I'm owning. I have no shame in anything. And it's what I'm proud of. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Love it.

Clarissa Winter [00:59:47] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:59:48] I love it. All right, well, we did about four hours, so. And I want to thank everyone who's tuned in on Facebook. So many of your friends and family are there and it's been so powerful and so healing and so vulnerable and they're just so. This is a hidden. This is a silent, a silenced voice. The prodigal children that don't return. And it is so healing for me to see someone who. Who returns triumphant, but not because they came back to the church. It's because they found healing and growth and love and self love and self acceptance and unconditional love on their own path. And that's what I love about today. And that's why I'm so thankful you were willing to share your story.

Clarissa Winter [01:00:42] Yeah, I just. If I. What I wish I had was just someone who supported me and like, it would have been nice to have had someone with me. And I hope, I just hope that whoever is going through this experience or knows someone going through this experience, that you just are kind and loving to them. Like, I think that's why not. Isn't that what God would do?

John Dehlin [01:01:06] You know, be kind to be loving, unconditionally loving. I love it. Thanks, Clarissa. Anything else you want to say before we end?

Clarissa Winter [01:01:18] Hi, Uncle Pat.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] Okay. All right. Hi, Uncle Pat. And thanks to everyone who's joined us, friends and family of Clarissa and just my listeners. Hope you've enjoyed this series on sexuality, female sexuality, suicidality, shame, but healing and growth as well. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com with any feedback. Make comments on our page. Join the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook Community. If you're looking for community, it's a great community.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] If you're a donor to the Oba Stories foundation or Mormon Stories, thank you. You make this possible. Right now, we've had donations decrease and less than 1% of our listeners donate. And if only 1%, 1 out of 100 donated, we would be self sufficient in perpetuity. So if you're not a donor, if you're not a supporter, I know times are tough financially, but $10 a month. If 1% of my listeners just donated $10 a month, it would make all the difference in the world. So please become a donor. If you can, go to MormonStories.org and become a monthly subscriber and we'll do this podcast for as long as we can.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] Thanks again to everyone. Please reach out if you have ideas for episodes. Please stay safe during this coronavirus scare. Maintain social distancing wash your hands a lot, don't infect other people. Stay safe, and we'll make it through this Coronavirus COVID 19 thing, and we'll have lots more cool get togethers and interviews and retreats and workshops, et cetera.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] So stay safe, everyone. Take care. And as always, we hope to see you again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.