Welcome and Book Club Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your co hosts for today, John Dehlin. I am joined by my incredibly wise and compelling partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:00:15] Hey, babe.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] How do you like being called compelling?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:18] I'm going to take it.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] All right. We are here today, super excited as part of the Mormon Stories Book Club to feature an amazing book by a dear friend, Noah Rachetta. We're going to be talking about this book, no Nonsense Buddhism for Beginners with Rebecca Bibliotheca from the Good Book Club. Before we introduce them, I just have a couple really quick announcements. Thank you for joining us. I want to just talk a little bit about this book club so that everyone understands what we're trying to do over the coming months and years. So here goes.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] We have three intentions with the Mormon Stories Book Club. The first is to bring great guests onto the podcast and to share cool authors and cool wisdom with our audience. So we hope that this is a really edifying and uplifting conversation and we hope to have many in the months and years ahead.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] The second motivation we have is to celebrate and support important authors and that should speak for itself. And then the third motivation that we have is to support the creation of community. And so probably the biggest need that people have when they are leaving a high demand religion. And of course, half of our audience is people who have never been Mormon before. But one of the main needs that they have is to find friends and, or community to replace the ones they lost when they left their high demand religion. So this book club is more than just a book club. It's an intention to help support the creation of community.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] And so what, what we want to do is sort of say this every time. If you're not, if you're looking for friends, if you're looking for community and you don't have it, what we want you to consider doing is starting a book club. If you already have some friends that you live around you who you can start a book club with, go for it. If you don't have, if you don't know someone around you and you want to start a book club, we, we want to help you start a book club. And the way we're doing this is by partnering with the Thrive organization. And so there is a Thrive group called Thrive Beyond Religion.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] You can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and you can figure out and find out about the events that they're holding just to give you a couple ideas. So this February 24th and through February 26th, there'll be a Thrive event in St. George.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] A bunch of really amazing people are speaking at it. I'm speaking at it. Anthony Miller, Donna Showalter, Bill and Amanda Real, Radio Free Mormon, Alan and Katie Mount, Tommy Johnson, the Tomsters amazing lineup of guests. And you can come to the thrive event in St. George and meet a bunch of friends. And hopefully if enough people from your area go to the thrive event in St. George, you can find friends to start a book club with.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] We also have another Thrive event scheduled in March called Thrive unite. It's on March 18th. And at Thrive Unite, we're going to have several local Thrive events throughout the world. And so there's going to be 18 different right now, 18 different cities. There's going to be Utah county stuff, there's going to be Ogden stuff. There's going to be just Idaho, Colorado, Arizona, California. You know, pick, pick your major city with a decent sized Mormon or ex Mormon population. There's probably going to be a thrive event. On March 18th. We're going to be bringing Stephen Hassan, Dr. Stephen Hassan, one of the world's foremost leaders in supporting people who are extricating themselves from high demand religions and or cults.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] We're bringing him to Salt Lake, he's going to be speaking at this event and it's going to be amazing. Now the final thing is if you go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and there's not a Thrive group that's local to where you live, or if there's not a Thrive event local to where you live, what you can do is you can actually sign up@thrivebeyondreligion.com to start your own local group in the city where you live. And once you do that, more and more people will likely join that group and you'll be able to find people for your book club. And so I just want to make sure people understand the primary motivation here is to help you find friends to do life with and to find community.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] And we think there's no better way to do this than through a book club. Margi and I just came back from Mexico where we did a book club event with our book club. We've had a book club for a couple of years. There's some of our closest friends and we even do one, you know, once or twice a year, do a vacation together in addition to the, let's just say every other month or every three month book clubs that, that we offer. Margi, would you agree that that book club has been an important part of our life.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:05:47] I agree.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Yeah. So, anyway, this is our attempt to. To help you, give us your feedback, ask us your questions, but that's kind of what's driving our motivation today. Again, we are, we are excited to be covering no Nonsense Buddhism for Beginners. This book is available on Amazon. You can also go to secularbuddhism.com I believe. And Noah not only has a book, but he also has a very successful podcast. And before I bring Noah Rasheta on, what we'd like to do is bring our book club partner on Rebecca, because none of this would have happened to her and without her. And Rebecca, would you mind introducing yourself to our group?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:06:32] Oh, I certainly would. I'm so happy to be back. This is really awesome. My name is Rebecca Bibliotheca and I have a master's in library and Information science and was an employee at the BYU Library for decades. On the other side of Mormonism, I noticed that people trying to find their way were reading voraciously. And so I connected with a lot of other people and started a book club several years ago called the Good Book Club. And I absolutely agree with you, John and Margi, when you say that connecting through reading, there's just something very special about that as you sort of deconstruct your past beliefs and philosophies, and then through the lens of Mormonism especially, you reconnect and kind of move forward together.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:07:17] So we've had some amazing experiences in our virtual the Good Book Club. And so when John was nice enough to approach me and say, hey, let's try to do something like this on Mormon Stories, I was more than happy to help. So the Mormon Stories Book Club is exactly that community and connecting, reading amazing books that can change your life and connecting with these incredible authors. So I'm really excited to be a part of it.

Next Book Club Pick and How to Join

John Dehlin [00:07:43] All right. And I guess, Rebecca, we should probably tell people about our next book so that they can get reading. Yeah, the. The book is when the Moon Turns to Blood by Leah Suttle. I don't exactly know how to pronounce it, and it's about Lori Valo, Chad Dabel, and the story of murder, Wild Faith, and End Times. We'll. We'll ask Maven to post a link to this book right now in the comments for the live stream and to put it in the show notes as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] But this is a really important book. Of course, many of you will know that Chad and Laurie Daybell were kind of Mormon, conservative, Mormon fundamentalist, kind of prepper people, but within the mainstream Mormon Church and It's a really sad story where spouses and children died and. But what's really cool about this book in particular is that Leah Suttle is a journalist from Oregon who's never been Mormon. And, and so she dug deep and has written an amazing book and we are so excited to have her as a guest. And Rebecca, what would you like to say about Leah and that book?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:08:55] Yeah, this is going to be an amazing read for everybody. And like John said, she has such an interesting perspective. Her specialty is kind of delving into religions and seeing how their doctrine can be taken to the extreme sometimes when where you really leave the mainstream in your actions and your ideology. And I've been communicating back and forth with Leah and I also don't know how to pronounce her last name. I should ask her that. I think you're correct there, John. But she said she is just absolutely honored that we have chosen her book and we are very excited to have her live stream. It's going to be on March 3rd at 10am so far, I believe that's the scheduled time, so.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:09:35] So we'll get more information out about that. But she's a lovely person and she says she's just thrilled and honored that we have chosen for books. So everybody go out and grab this or on audio and let's get reading.

John Dehlin [00:09:46] And Rebecca, by the way, just really quickly, if people aren't interested in forming a local book club or if they want to join a book club that's kind of already going. Can you talk quickly about both the Mormon Stories Book Club and your book club and just how they would join that?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:10:05] Yeah, my Good Book. My. The Good Book Club. I have my little sign here. We've been going for about, oh, over two and a half years and we're virtual national. We have people from all over and we vote on our books. We do a book a month. It's always the second Sunday at 11am so we have a presence, a Facebook presence. You could find us the Good Book Club.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:10:27] And I also, I kind of cross promote. So everybody in the Good Book Club, I say, hey, you can also read this. There are never too many books, right? So anybody would be more than welcome to join the Good Book Club for more community and more reading. And then, of course, I think almost everybody from the Good Book Club has also joined the Mormon Stories Book Club because like I said, we're reading other kinds of books. So. And the Mormon Stories Book Club does have a Facebook page that I run. So if you are not on that, jump over There, because that's where a lot of community starts.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:10:56] We post about the book, people talk about the book, they get into discussions and they can kind of find each other. And we've had people that have started messaging each other and maybe they find out, like John said, they're in the same area and they can actually connect in the same place. So it's just a lot of cross pollination and back and forth and communicating around the books. And I mean, I think we're kind of in a unique situation where we tend to discuss them through the lens of Mormonism, which is different. Perhaps it's kind of a little niche, but it's wonderful to be able to talk about and process things through that lens of where we've all been.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:11:33] And that's important. And it helps you form almost instant community. And because people know where you've been and they can relate and you can relate to them.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] I love it. All right, Rebecca, well, thanks so much. All right, without any further ado, we are bringing back two Mormon stories. Not just a very popular and successful author and podcaster, but a dear friend who I got to know back even maybe before, while secular Buddhism was just a twinkle in his eye. But I bring to you guys today the founder of Secular Buddhism, a podcast, and the author of no Nonsense Buddhism for Beginners, the Noah Rasheta.

Introducing Noah Rasheta and Secular Buddhism

Noah Rasheta [00:12:16] Hey, Noah. Hey. It's nice to see you again. Thank you. And yes, it was long before that was even a twinkle in the eye.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] Noah, why don't we give you a chance to do whatever introduction you want to just in, in terms of like, whatever you want to say before we jump into your story and the book.

Noah Rasheta [00:12:38] All right, sure. So I'm Noah. I, I live near Park City here in Utah, and I'm, I'm really excited to be able to talk about Buddhism and the, the basics and the, the beginner approach to it. And more than anything, I like to preface everything with the same message that I use in my podcast, which is always this. You don't need to use what you learn from Buddhism to be a Buddhist. You can use it to learn to be a better whatever you already are. And all of the concepts and topics that we'll discuss, from my perspective, it's always, they're always presented as, as tools, not things that need to be believed in, but just ideas or concepts that can be incorporated into your toolkit to help you be a better whatever you already are.

Noah Rasheta [00:13:26] So I, I like to preface everything with that, but that's really all I have to say. I'm looking forward to the discussion and seeing where it goes.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Beautiful. Okay, well, Margi and Rebecca, I want to invite you all to jump in at any point. Rebecca has gathered comments and questions from our viewers and listeners. We also, we've also got several people joining us on the live stream and we welcome questions and comments from our live stream audience as well. And I'll just try and kind of guide the conversation. But please, Margi and Rebecca jump in.

Noah's Journey from Mormonism to Buddhism

John Dehlin [00:13:57] No, I want to begin. You do come from an LDS background and I guess, you know, there's, I talked to you about maybe having a lens today of secular Buddhism for people who have left kind of a high demand religion. Not because I want that to be a focus, but because sometimes I've found that having a practical application as you're learning something helps you maybe learn it a little bit better than if you're kind of learning it in the abstract.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] So if it's okay, Noah, why don't we begin by you talking about, you know, anything you want to say about kind of your exit from, from orthodox Mormonism and how that led you to Buddhism and what sort of whole, what, what you were looking for and, and what, in what way for you, secular Buddhism maybe started to fill some of those holes.

Noah Rasheta [00:14:54] Sure. Thank you. So for me, you know, there were specific events that unfolded in a way where you suddenly start feeling like the, the ground that you were standing on that felt so firm maybe isn't quite so firm. And I think that's, that's a starting point for a lot of people who go through a faith transition. There's that the, the rumblings of the ground or the proverbial rug being swept out from under your feet. One of those events that, that suddenly leaves you wondering, you know, what am I standing on here? What's, what's actually happening? For me, it was similar. It was going through a few events that left me thinking, I, I don't know about this.

Noah Rasheta [00:15:38] And because, because I was already so dialed in to believe that there's a, there's a one true way, the one correct path, the moment you start to doubt and you think, wait, is this the right path for me? I think the first, the first logical thing that a lot of us do is say, well, if this isn't it, what is the right path? And that, that was how it unfolded for me. So I, I immediately went into seeker mode and thought, I'm going to find if there's another path that resonates or makes more sense for me.

Noah Rasheta [00:16:13] And I was listening to Some lecture series. And it was. The title of the lecture was the Meaning of Life Presented through the lens of the major world religions. And they had presenters talking about the. The answers to life's big questions. Who are we? Why are we here? What happens when we die? And it was present that the presenters were representing Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism. And I was fascinated, listening to all the answers. I remember I had my notebook and I just kind of, you know, trying to absorb what I can with the intent of finding, could there be another way? That might be the.

Noah Rasheta [00:16:54] The way. And the last presenter was a presenter talking about Buddhism. And one thing, one moment I'll never forget in that, in the initial moments of that presenter's presentation, he said, we don't have answers to these questions. Everybody had been presenting. Here's. Here's the question and here's our answer. But this presenter said, we don't have the answers to these questions. We instead will focus primarily on the question itself. Why do I feel the need to know this? Or who is the one doing the seeking? It's a very introspective approach that focuses on questions rather than answers. And that was my first encounter with an entirely new way of thinking that was foreign to me.

Noah Rasheta [00:17:36] I thought, why have I. It's never occurred to me that the question might matter more than the answer. So that's what took me down the rabbit hole of studying Buddhism. And I feel like the. The search evolved from being a search for answers and a search for truth to a search for inner peace and more contentment.

Noah Rasheta [00:17:59] And it was a. It was a very healing process to go through that and to start to feel more comfortable with being in a space where you don't have something firm to stand on. Being in a space where what, what I thought I needed to be content and have peace in life was a firm foundation when instead it was the being comfortable with the discomfort of not knowing. There's a lot in life that we just don't know. We don't know what's right around the corner, we don't know what's happening tomorrow and much less the big existential questions.

Noah Rasheta [00:18:35] And that was my, that's. That started my fascination with Buddhism as a philosophy. I, I encountered the secular Buddhist movement that was kind of happening. There was a. A movement of people who were interested in learning about Buddhism from a secular lens, meaning they, they had no interest in adopting another ideology or an ism. And, and I jumped right into that as well. I, at the time, I, I had no interest in feeling like I was going to study Buddhism with the intent of becoming a Buddhist.

Noah Rasheta [00:19:09] So for me, it was important to approach it from that secular perspective. And then over time, the more I learned about it, the more I understood the. The nature of. Of what Buddhism is as a philosophy, as a way of life, the more interested I became in presenting it to others because it was such a useful paradigm to. To a lens to view reality, to view my own life, that I wanted to share it with others. And I wanted to do it, you know, without that threat of whatever your worldview is and whatever resonates for you and works for you. The ideas that come from Buddhism can be added because it's.

Noah Rasheta [00:19:49] It's not the same as an ideology that competes over answers. In other words, you have an ideology that says, here's life's big questions, here are the answers, as opposed to this other one that also has answers. Buddhism never really competes with any because it doesn't have the answers. It focuses on the questions. So I wanted to present it in a way where people would know if you already have an ideology that works for you or you don't have an ideology and you don't want one that works for you.

Noah Rasheta [00:20:16] It works to have a set of tools to help you be more introspective and give you a new way of exploring everything, which is looking at the questions rather than the answers.

Suffering, Not-Knowing, and Core Buddhist Ideas

Margi Dehlin [00:20:29] I had just a quick question around that and maybe looking a little bit more from an emotional lens, because from what I understand, especially with regards to what I learned in your book, but part of the appeal, I feel like, of Buddhism is this idea, is it should appeal to anyone who suffers, because idea of Buddhism, as I have learned, is kind of. It seeks to kind of address suffering. So I just wanted to follow up for you personally.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:01] I know I started looking into Buddhism more amidst a time for me where I was feeling a lot of suffering personally. It was kind of a midstar, right before our excommunication, where things were starting to get complicated and my suffering was. Was rising. And it kind of made me more open, I think, and kind of positioned me to where the appeal of Buddhism was right there.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:28] Was that true for you? Did you. Were you in a place when you started kind of looking into it, of feeling suffering? Is that how you would talk about it?

Noah Rasheta [00:21:40] Yes, that's exactly how I would talk about it. I think going through a faith transition or going through a lot of events will cause this, but that sensation of deep unsatisfactoriness, anguish, pain, suffering, I think we can call it a Lot of things. But at the heart of what Buddhism is all about, it's centered entirely around the notion of understanding the nature of suffering, the causes, the cessation, and living a life that leads to a path to the cessation of the causes of suffering. That's like, that's Buddhism in a nutshell. It's centered around suffering. So for me to, to encounter it at a time that

Noah Rasheta [00:22:19] I was experiencing deep suffering and deep unsatisfactoriness, it came as a, as a very welcome tool to add, you know, to be able to learn more and, and mostly to be able to ease this deep suffering that I was experiencing. That was definitely, for me, that's how it all unfolded.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Rebecca, let's get you in here with maybe, maybe your first question and we'll kind of volley a little bit.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:22:49] We'll volley. That's it. I, I appreciate both of your comments. That's amazing. I was also really attracted to the concept of impermanence and not having answers to questions, because when you come from a place of high control, high demand, there are answers. You have to know them and you have to be on board with them. And if internally you don't feel that those answers match you or work for you, there's a lot of internal struggle there. And so this idea that there can be impermanence, you don't have to have answers to questions. Your parable that you shared of carrying the stuff stone up the mountain, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. And the idea that the answer is not important, in fact may be detrimental to people's growth.

Noah Rasheta [00:23:38] Yeah, it's kind of a foreign concept for a lot of us in, in the Western world, I think, you know, if we were to say the, the situation at hand is that we live in a world where uncertainty is reality. Right. We, like I said earlier, we don't know what's happening later today. We don't. You never know. You just don't know what's around the corner. I like to use the analogy that life is a lot like a game of Tetris and we go about living our lives as if we were playing chess, thinking if I, if I do this move, life will counter with this other move and somehow I can win the game when the reality is it's more like a game of Tetris and you don't know what pieces are about to show up.

Noah Rasheta [00:24:20] And the. So Buddhism as an overall world view is very different from other ideological views in the sense that, like I said, it is focused primarily on the questions, it's not centered around the answers. I think sometimes when we, when we feel the existential angst of not knowing, we're comforted by having a sense of. Of security that says, but maybe it's this. Or even better, it is this. And now I'm going to cling firmly to this view, and I'm comforted from the discomfort of not knowing by having something that makes me feel like I do know.

Noah Rasheta [00:25:02] And that can be useful for some people. That's, That's a very important comfort tool, is to have an answer that you can feel anchored in. The Buddhist approach says the trouble with that is, what if that answer gets threatened or questioned or you start doubting it? If your stability is anchored in the certainty of having what you believe to be the answer, what happens? If that starts to look like it might not be the case? Then you. You lose that piece. So the Buddhist approach is saying, well, what if we can get comfortable with not knowing and not needing to know? Then that can't be robbed from you. Because if something comes along, new evidence or something that says, hey, it's this. It wasn't that. It was this.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:25:49] It.

Noah Rasheta [00:25:49] You would be totally fine with that because it was never anchored on the answer anyway. It was always anchored on the question. So one of the parables that's used in Zen, in the, in the Zen tradition, there's a story of a monk who's asking his teacher, how. How can I become enlightened? How can I, you know, gain enlightenment? And the. The teacher says, yeah, yeah, I'll. I'm happy to share this with you, but you'll need to bring a stone with me or to me.

Noah Rasheta [00:26:19] And this gentleman goes up the hill every day with a new stone. Is this it? And the answer is always the same. No, that's not the correct stone. Bring me the right stone and you'll be enlightened. And he does this over and over for days and months and years. You can imagine the frustration. Heavy rocks, sharp rocks. He tries all kinds of scenarios, and the answer is always the same. No, that's not the right rock. Well, one day, out of frustration, and he just drops the rock and says, that's it. I'm done. I don't. I'm not. I don't need to be enlightened. I'm not going to do this every day and bring the right rock.

Noah Rasheta [00:26:53] And that's when the, the teacher tells them, there you go. That is. That's the correct answer. That is the right rock. And I think it hints at this idea that I think the thing that I want is enlightenment, right? And that's the thing I'm chasing. But when you reach a stage of life where you don't need to be enlightened, you no longer care.

Noah Rasheta [00:27:14] Well, maybe it's not that you don't care. It's no longer feels like it's a ne. A necessity, then you're enlightened. That's kind of the, the, the irony with the Buddhist worldview is like, it's all centered around craving that. The, the, the formula for suffering is wanting things to be other than how they are. That's. We've all experienced that. So not wanting them to be other than how they are is being fine with things being just as they are. And the irony is, well, well, that's the moment of enlightenment. You don't need things to be anything other than how they are. And I love that story. I think it's a, it's a fun visual for that idea.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] So, Noah, I want to just dig in a tiny bit deeper on this idea if it's okay, even from a Mormon lens. Because if you think about like, you know, take Joseph Smith and the LDS restoration for an example, having answers was the value proposition. It's like, hey, listen, I, you know, the, the, let's just say the LDS church, and this is unique to the LDS Church, they say, let me tell you who you are. You're a child of God. Let me tell you what the purpose of life is. It's to, you know, go to the temple and get married and have a temple marriage and get baptized and preach the gospel and redeem the dead.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] I don't know how to live. Well, here's your morality. Don't drink, don't drink coffee, don't smoke, don't have premarital sex. You know. Well, what, what, you know, how should I spend my time? Well, you should be serving in the church. Well, what about death? What about the afterlife? Well, don't worry about that. Jesus took care of it. You die, you resurrect. Like, that is like the value proposition of, you know, most religious traditions. And what you're saying is, is, well, number one, people who leave a high demand religion, like, don't want a religion, and they're suspicious of theologies, but because when they think about the word Buddhism, they immediately think, oh, well, this is a religion, so it's another religion.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] So on the one hand, just the fact that Buddhism is often categorized as one of the major world religions, there's going to be a bunch of People who need something who aren't even going to be open to Buddhism from the start because they immediately categorize it as a religion. But on the flip side, let's just say they were to look into it, they would probably come to it with the expectation that there's a value in a religious system providing all these answers, providing all this structure, providing all these frameworks. And so it's hard to get them to even look at Buddhism sometimes. But then once they do, you're basically saying, yeah, all that stuff that you found value in from your previous religious tradition, we don't do any of that.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] That's not what we're about at all. So how do you, number one, how do you address the obstacle that many people don't want anything that smells like religion, but then once they're willing to even consider Buddhism, then you're telling them, yeah, we're not going to provide any of the things that provided you value before and instead not providing those things actually is the value. But that, that's a tricky proposition to, to, to advance.

Noah Rasheta [00:30:30] Yeah, it really is.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] First, I'll say, I hope that question makes sense.

Noah Rasheta [00:30:36] I, I think it does. Yeah. I'll say that when, when we talk about Buddhism in a broad, in a broad perspective here, there are a lot of different schools of Buddhism, a lot of different approaches, a lot of cultural approaches that you can encounter one thought or one school of Buddhism versus another and think this, this feels very different.

Noah Rasheta [00:31:02] It's no different than Christianity. Right. If you were to just, if we were talking about Christianity, Christianity in general, that looks very different to Catholic, the Catholic approach versus the Mormon approach, for example. Buddhism is similar in that sense, but at its core, in all of, in almost all of the traditions, Buddhism is a non theistic tradition. So you don't have a, a deity like, like you would in a lot of other religions. The Buddha was a, a person who discovered a formula, an approach for living life and then shared those teachings, but is not a deity. So when you take someone who hasn't encountered in an ideology like Buddhism, it can feel very foreign, like wait, who you're trying to match up the things from what you're used to, to this new approach.

Noah Rasheta [00:31:57] Like in my system, if this is God and these are the commandments and these are the prophets or who we listen to now let's put them over on this side and who, who fits those roles? Who is my deity? Where do, but it doesn't work that way because it's just not like that at all.

Noah Rasheta [00:32:12] I think what One thing that happens when, let's say, using an entirely different analogy, let's say you have a system in place that does everything for you. Like you said before, like, here are your norms. You do, you do this and you don't do that.

Noah Rasheta [00:32:27] Here are all of your answers. It would be like having that with, I don't know, let's say you live your life where you have a butler who does this, someone who makes your bed, someone who carries the heavy objects for you. You leave that world behind and you encounter this new world that's saying, hey, come over here. We have tools that can help you too. But you realize it's not the same tools over here. It's what you're going to be given is an exercise regimen that you can follow, like meditation, but it's exercise. It's going to build your muscles. So those stones that people have been carrying for you, now, you can lift it, you can carry it.

Noah Rasheta [00:33:05] And. But it's a series of practices. And you do the practices and you do them long enough and you realize, oh, I don't need those things that I had before. I don't need someone to make my bed. I can make my bed. I don't need someone to lift that heavy object for me. I am now capable. I can lift it. And it's a very empowering approach because just like with the question and answer analogy, turns out if you spend enough time with the questions, maybe you don't need the answers. And over here, it'd be the same if you, if you develop yourself and your abilities and your skills yet maybe you don't need anyone else to be doing these other things for you.

Noah Rasheta [00:33:43] And, but like you said, that transition can be very strange because you, you walk into this new world saying, well, who are these roles? Who are these people who are going to do all this for me? And you're being presented with an entirely different approach, which is there are none of those people here. Here, it's all about you. Let's look inward, let's, let's start doing things that will strengthen you. And that sense of faith that we all know from, you know, from other, like the Mormon perspective or Christianity, where faith is always outsourced, or it's external, it's in someone else here, it's internal, It's. You're going to have this sense of faith in your ability to handle what life throws at you when it throws it at you.

Noah Rasheta [00:34:24] And just like with the analogy of, you know, you're going to be able to trust that you're capable of lifting the things and doing the things and making your bed and all of that. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's all. That's what I could think of.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] Yeah, I'll just say, and then Margi's got something, and then Rebecca. But I was just going to say that the way I like to think about secular Buddhism, and by the way, my introduction to secular Buddhism came through Eckhart Tolle. And so, you know, it's 2007. Margi and I are still in the church, the LDS Church, but we're feeling spiritually empty because the Mormon Church just isn't meeting our spiritual needs. We're fans of Oprah. Oprah brings Eckhart Tolle on and she does a book club on a New Earth, and we start reading through A New Earth, and it kind of blows our mind.

Discovering Buddhism Through Eckhart Tolle

John Dehlin [00:35:19] And at the time I'm considering a degree in psychology, I'm always thinking about mental health. And I realize these principles that Eckhart Tolle is talking about, about ego, about pain, body, about acceptance, about mindfulness, about meditation. This is kind of a. This isn't really a theology or a religion. This is kind of like principles for positive mental health. It's basically not a theology.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] It's got nothing to do with the afterlife. But instead it's like ways to live that'll make you happy and healthy. Or if not happy, maybe that's not a skillful term. It's principles to help you live your best life. How would you riff on what I just said? Noah?

Noah Rasheta [00:36:05] Yeah, no, I agree. I think we could have like two. Two operating manuals that we look at. One is saying, hey, here's reality, here's how you make sense of the world. Pointing at things. That's what that is. That's what that other thing is. Then you encounter this other manual that says, hey, let's. This is your user manual for you getting familiar with the nature of your own mind.

Noah Rasheta [00:36:27] Why do I say and think and do the things that I do? Why do I seek the things that I seek? Why do I run away from the things that I run away from? And in that sense, it's very much a school of psychology almost. It's a. It's a method that we use to become more familiar with ourselves and with our inner workings. And it's almost like an owner's manual to our own mind.

Noah Rasheta [00:36:55] And I think it's, like I said, it doesn't compete with the other one. Because if the other manual is a manual for what's out there. Here's the manual for what's in here. And they can complement each other. But to me, the manual of what's in here matters most because that's what helps me understand why I. How I see whatever's out there.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] Okay. All right, Margi. And then, Rebecca, you're next.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:19] In some ways, for me, I felt like Buddhism actually was a perfect, like, in crisis type of thing, moving or shifting as I was away from religion. And I'll tell you why. I think what happens naturally when you're in a place of suffering, at least for me, beliefs did not help me suffer less. They didn't inform my behavior. They didn't inform. And so I actually remember the first book I read by Thich Nhat Hanh. I was a believing Mormon. And what I remember, I was experiencing a lot of suffering at that time. And I just remember being really struck by this idea of practices, learning about the Eightfold Path, which we can talk about if we want.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:09] It's in Noah's book, of course. But feeling like there were actual things I could practice. And as I practiced, I actually did feel like I suffered less and I got to know myself a bit better. So in some ways, I almost think it's so well suited because it's not triggering, because it's doesn't. It doesn't really resemble a whole lot of where we come from, which makes it almost a beautiful complement to what happens in. Is it Richard Rohr, second half of life? What happens when you kind of. You kind of get up to a point, and then inevitably things that worked no longer work for you?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:54] To me, it seems like just a beautiful compliment almost. You know what I mean? Like the perfect next thing to help you, kind of. And I loved your point, Noah, about this idea of. For many people I work with coming out of religion, there's this sense of disconnect to self, just because I think there's so much that is external about Mormonism, whether that's conformity, whether that's, you know, just kind of how it works with regard to if you can go to the temple, other people are kind of deciding your worthiness. And so it is a beautiful way to kind of shift your focus to a place where you're getting to know yourself and your own mind and your own perceptions in curiosity, not judgment, which I think makes it just a whole new. It's like a. A new day.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] And Rebecca, I promise you're next. But I just want to riff on what Margi said. Noah, A lot of Times we associate, like beliefs and theology with comfort. It's like, oh, knowing there's an afterlife, knowing there's a God, knowing there's a Jesus that loves me. We used to associate that with providing comfort. But is it possible that once you maybe reach a certain stage in your life development, that those same beliefs that you associated with comfort can actually be the source of more suffering? In other words, theology as suffering instead of theology as comfort?

Beliefs, Comfort, and Finding an Internal Compass

Noah Rasheta [00:40:30] Yeah, I think. I think that's very possible. And I think it happens to a lot of people at. At one stage. I often say I'm not necessarily sure that it's our beliefs that comfort us. It's the fact that we have beliefs to have something to believe in that can comfort us. And it wouldn't matter. Had I been brought up in, let's say, Islam or Hinduism, another tradition that gives me a set of beliefs, I would be comforted by having beliefs, not necessarily by the specific beliefs that I have.

Noah Rasheta [00:41:04] And I think it can be comforting until it's not comforting. Like you said, it can be very, very comforting until maybe you look at another way of thinking and the moment it doesn't make sense, whatever made sense to you doesn't make sense, it can no longer comfort you. In fact, it's just going to remove a lot of that comfort because now you're left thinking, well, maybe this isn't what I thought. Or what about that other. That other path? Maybe that's the path I should be on. And I like how Buddhism comes along again, as an introspective tool. If we use the analogy of paths, let's say you're on a path that's rocky and it has sharp stones, and you're going uphill, and someone else is on a path that's on the sandy beach and it's just a nice smooth path.

Noah Rasheta [00:41:53] And you're. If for you to look at someone on that path and think, well, they're wearing flip flops, I should probably be wearing flip flops too, would be an unskillful choice, or could be an unskillful choice for you. You may be on a path where hiking boots are more recommended, or you. You haven't been using trekking poles, and maybe you should.

Noah Rasheta [00:42:15] So it's this approach makes it much less about the path and much more about the introspection that helps me realize how skillful am I on my path. On the path that I'm on, should I be wearing boots? Should I be wearing double socks to prevent blisters? Or should I, you know, whatever the thing is, that's skillful for, for your specific path. And when we approach it, based on the answers where we're looking at paths and comparing paths, we may.

Guest [00:42:44] We.

Noah Rasheta [00:42:44] We may overlook little things that never had to do with the path. It had everything to do with how. How we are configured and the shoes that we're wearing and, you know, the. The apparel that you're using for the climate where you are things, things of that nature, things that are more inward focused rather than outward.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] Love it. All right, Rebecca, what do you got?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:43:08] No, I appreciate both of those comments. I have thought a lot about how it's very foreign to think internally when you're coming out of Mormonism, because so much of it, like Margi pointed out, is external. You almost override your own intuition in a lot of things. You're told to wwjd. What does Jesus want you to do? What does God want you to do? What does the Prophet want you to do? What messages are you getting from the Holy Ghost? Everything is external. And what's internal is very much overridden by that, and it kind of leaves you a little empty. So when you put all that aside and you're left with yourself internally, you're like, what do I think?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:43:49] What do I want to do? And one of the things in the book, the statement was, it's not that teachings are true, but do they work? So we're used to just following these things that we get externally, these teachings, and now suddenly we can ask the question, I don't have to follow that. I can follow things that work for me. So that's a very foreign concept. I think for a lot of people on the other side of high demand, high control. And the other thing that I really like, that kind of ties into that kind of following your own compass, getting comfortable with your own intuition and what your own internal, you know, feelings are is.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:44:28] This is a quote. It is far more important to live ethically than to worship anything. That absolutely resonated with me because there were so many times, looking back that I found that I had to put what I felt ethically on hold to follow the teachings or the people that I was worshiping. And there were just some big moments when I was still active LDS. This will date me. But like Prop 8, that was a huge moment where I sat in Relief Society and they were talking about chartering a bus. I was in Utah to go to California to. To, you know, I don't know, canvas or something.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:45:04] And inside I just went, no way. You know, ethically. You know, I cannot get on board with this. So it was a big moment there for me where something was so large and I was so ethically opposed that I just had this little spark. So Buddhism, to me, these ideas that. It doesn't even have to be a big thing. You can follow your ethics, you can follow your intuition on your own and see where that takes you. So I guess my question is, do you want to talk a little bit more about that statement? Far more important to live ethically than to worship anything. To me, that was very, very important.

Noah Rasheta [00:45:44] Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. I think if we, if we had a bracelet that we used in, In Buddhism, it would be, what would I do? And the, the invitation here, I think, would be, a lot of times we don't know what we would do. Or even worse, we don't trust ourselves.

Noah Rasheta [00:46:08] We've been kind of conditioned to believe. Don't trust yourself. Don't trust your own intuition. Here's a, you know, here's what you can follow. Here's this book, or here's this leader, or here's something for you to follow, but don't trust yourself.

Noah Rasheta [00:46:23] And this is a radical shift from that. It's saying, well, hold on, let's equip you so that you can trust yourself and you can call those shots and you can decide what feels right and what feels wrong and, and getting to your. The. Well, the statement that's far more important to, to follow or to have ethics rather than, you know, following a path that's telling you how to do something.

Noah Rasheta [00:46:52] One of the core concepts or ideas in Buddhism is that we can be unskillfully following routines that. Or procedures or processes, norms, commandments, however you want to frame that, that that are not beneficial to ourselves or others. They're causing harm to ourselves or others, rather than minimizing or reducing suffering for ourselves and others. So I do. I. I think it's important in the context of that expression, who defines what is ethical?

Noah Rasheta [00:47:28] The answer is, it depends. You know, what may be ethical in one set of circumstances is not in a different set of circumstances. So to be told, you know, just as an example, the, the norm is never lie. Okay, well, I mean, on the surface, that works, but now you find yourself hiding a Jewish family in your home, you know, in World War II and the Nazis are knocking, asking if you have anyone hiding in your home. Well, is the ethical thing to do not lie? Or is the ethical thing to do in that moment to lie?

Noah Rasheta [00:48:01] And I think that's what that's at the heart of that expression, that ethics can often go beyond what seems like a fixed rule that in most cases might make sense, but. But doesn't always make sense. And that's, that's where we have to understand that the answer is always. It depends on. And it depends on what? Well, I have to be able to be introspective to calculate as best I can the picture, the broadest or largest picture that I can. So I can determine what for me is ethical at this moment in the decision making or in the words that I'm using or in anything. So that's what's at the heart of that expression.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] One of our viewers just wrote they're going to copyright that bracelet. Wwid. I can't believe someone hasn't already done it. I'm imagining someone has. But that's a great, that's a great idea. No, let's talk really about suffering and happiness and the hap. What I like to call, or what I've heard called the happiness trap. So, you know, coming out of Mormonism as an example, it's often billed as the Great Plan of Happiness. There's that quote, man is that he might have joy. And, you know, we were all raised to believe that if we just follow the gospel, live the commandments, we're going to find happiness. Buddhism starts with a very different philosophy regarding happiness and suffering. And it even maybe makes the point that the pursuit of happiness can actually be counterproductive. Can you, can you, can we launch into a discussion about suffering and the happiness paradox?

The Happiness Trap and the Nature of Suffering

Noah Rasheta [00:49:40] Yes, from the, from the Buddhist lens, like I mentioned earlier, the understanding of suffering is paramount. It's the, it's the very first teaching, what we call the Four Noble Truths center entirely around this notion of suffering. And the word suffering can be problematic because again, we're taking ideas that are translated to languages, that are translated to other languages as they make their way to us. We go with the word that is used. But to understand the Buddhist notion of suffering, we first need to understand that there are different types of suffering. There's what we would call natural suffering. Like I hit my finger with a hammer when I was trying to use a nail.

Noah Rasheta [00:50:20] Okay, that's suffering. But that's not the type of suffering that Buddhism is aimed at resolving or solving. It's the unnatural suffering, the suffering that arises, usually associated to a view or to a belief or, or conditioned. We call it the conditioned mind in, in the Buddhist framework. And the idea here is that suffering, in that sense, it's universal. We all know the Feeling of wanting things to be other than how they are. The intensity for that wanting correlates directly to the intensity of the suffering. The more I want things to be other than how they are, the more suffering I'm experiencing.

Noah Rasheta [00:51:01] So the practice here is to be introspective and to have the understanding that suffering has causes. Well, what are the causes? As I look into the specific causes of my instances of suffering, I may discover that what's at the root of it is an unskillful view or an unskillful belief. Let's say for a moment that I was brought up to believe that bushy eyebrows are a bad thing. Well, here I would be experiencing suffering because I have big bushy eyebrows and I would feel like I'm just, you know, I'm not living life the right way.

Noah Rasheta [00:51:39] That's the example that came to mind. I think maybe a more appropriate one would be, let's say, in a common view in our society with parenting. I'll use parenting as an example, is that if you are doing it the right way, it's easy. If you're doing it the wrong way, then parenting is hard. Right. That would be the foundation of, of the view. So now I'm set up for the causes of suffering. Here I am parenting, and in my case, I, I still have three young kids at home, and the. And parenting is hard. And the. So to be experiencing the difficulty of parenting coupled with the suffering of parenting.

Noah Rasheta [00:52:16] The suffering may be that I. So I'm parenting, which is already hard, but now I'm thinking I'm parenting wrong. That's because of the belief or the view that says if you're doing it right, it'll be easy. Now I'm experiencing unnecessary suffering in my parenting. So this would be in the, in that formula, from the Buddhist perspective, it would. It would be, let me take a look at the instance of suffering. Let's look at the cause, and let's see if there's a way to have a. A cessation for the cause of suffering. Well, that might come when I realize, hey, parenting is hard. Why did I ever believe that parenting can be easy or hard?

Noah Rasheta [00:52:56] And if I do it right, it's easy. If I do it wrong, it's hard. You would realize no parenting is, Is your. It's hard. Okay, well, now I can sit with that moment of discomfort when I'm experiencing difficult difficulty parenting, but I'm not adding the unnecessary suffering to it, which is the thought that I'm doing it all wrong. Otherwise, you know, it would Never be hard. I don't know if that makes sense. I'm, I'm just firing off here with, with thoughts. But that's the general idea with, with suffering and with the cessation of suffering. Now happiness, real quick get into that.

Noah Rasheta [00:53:32] You know, we, I think we want freedom from the pursuit of happiness. That's one of the ironies with happiness. It's this thing that you chase after, but by chasing after it, you can't get it. There's a Zen story again here where you have someone chasing a but butterfly in the field, and the harder he chases after this thing, the harder it is to catch it because the. They're difficult to catch. But the moment he stops trying and he sits down and he's done chasing it, the butterfly comes and lands on his nose. I think that's a, a little story that illustrates again, this notion of chasing after the thing that you think you want.

Noah Rasheta [00:54:09] In this case, happiness may be the very reason that you can't get it, because it's not of the nature to be chased after. It's. It's an emotion. When the causes and conditions are. Are there, the emotion is there. Whether it's happiness or sadness or anger, all of them work the same way. They, they come and go, they arise, they linger, and then they dissipate the same way that clouds do in the sky. So to go chasing after it is almost to ensure that you're not going to get it now because they're not of the nature to be chased after. Instead, we could be understanding the nature of our own mind.

Noah Rasheta [00:54:46] What are the causes of my suffering and making skillful choices that allow these things to just be what they are when they are. And I think that's a healthier approach as far as chasing happiness or running away from sadness.

Buddhist Parables: The Second Arrow and the Tiger

Margi Dehlin [00:55:03] One thing that I really love about Buddhism and I've learned a lot about these stories on your secular Buddhism podcast, but are the stories that kind of illustrate what you're saying, like the butterfly. And I was curious with suffering, if you wouldn't mind kind of explaining the second arrow story, because I think it relates to suffering in a way that allows us to really be able to identify. I all I consistently ask myself, am I second arrowing myself right now? Like, is, am I doing that to myself? And so would you mind just sharing that? Because I think it cements things in a different way in our brains.

Noah Rasheta [00:55:47] Yes, I'm glad you brought that up because it is a very helpful visual tool to understand that the nature of reality from in this story is that we're out walking around and from time to time we get struck with arrows. And the moment that you're struck with an arrow, that is what we would call natural suffering. It hurts to be struck by an arrow. Obviously, that's the nature of how arrows work. But what we tend to do at that moment is we take out a second arrow and we start to look where we got hit. You know, we take that second arrow and we start poking and prodding.

Noah Rasheta [00:56:23] Why. Why did I get hit here? This is my good shoulder, you know, And. And why does it have to be a pointed arrow? Why did it. And we keep poking at it with that second arrow. And the visual there, the analogy with this is that often as we go throughout our lives, we inflict second arrow pain on ourselves. So the first arrow is natural. It just happens. You can't help it. It was fired and you were in the line and you got hit.

Noah Rasheta [00:56:50] But the second one is the one that we can help. That's usually, usually doing that to ourselves or to others, causing the second arrow of pain, the second arrow of suffering. And yeah, I like to ask myself too, in any instances of suffering, when something's happening, like, is this a first arrow or is this a second arrow?

Margi Dehlin [00:57:11] Yes.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:57:14] Yeah, I love that, Margi. I'm going to use that. Do you mind? Am I second arrowing myself? Because I think most of us are right. It's just human nature. So the concept of understanding our reality and then suffering and letting go of suffering, it's. It's absolutely wonderful because I think it can lead us more, give us more happiness. I think in the LDS Church, there's that concept of enduring to the end, right? It's. There's maybe almost a badge to suffering. And part of that, I think, stems from this overwhelming idea of the afterlife where that's where it's all going to be okay. And so speaking of stories, like Margi said, I absolutely.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:57:54] The stories are the way that you communicate so well in this, the story of the Tiger and the Strawberries. I don't know if you. If you'd be able to tell that, because to me, that's extremely meaningful about how you just. You. It's okay to suffer. You're enduring to the end because it's all going to be okay later. And you're never in the present. You're never enjoying life as it is right now. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that story, which is one of my favorites, and how it relates to that concept, which I find kind of A horrible concept of enduring to the end and just focusing on the afterlife and not your present situation and alleviating your suffering.

Noah Rasheta [00:58:32] Yeah, I would say that's probably one of my favorite stories too. I think. I think it might be one of the most profound, actually. When, When. When I really sit and think, think about it before jumping into the story. I'll say one of the key practices in Buddhism is meditation, mindfulness meditation.

Meditation, Mindfulness, and the Present Moment

Noah Rasheta [00:58:54] And what we do, we. We focus on, let's say, our breath. And people will ask me this all the time, like, well, what's the point behind meditation? Especially something like, well, I'm just sitting here observing my breath, but what's that doing for me?

Noah Rasheta [00:59:08] What it's doing is it's training us to. Training ourselves, our minds to be able to pay attention by just paying attention to one thing. Because the. The idea here is that we go through life being habitually reactive. This think of, you know, you're driving along, somebody cuts in front of you, and you're instantly reactive to it. And I don't mean reactive as in what I'm going to do next, but I mean, an emotion immediately wells up, right? Like you might have the thought, this jerk just cut me off. Well, why did I think they were a jerk? Why was that the option that came? Why am I feeling what I'm feeling?

Noah Rasheta [00:59:50] So we, we call this habitual reactivity. In our state of habitual. Habitual reactivity, we. We don't really notice. We're just reactive. Life's happening and we're reacting to it. So the premise for meditation is to ease away from the habitual reactivity and instead have what we would call skillful action.

Noah Rasheta [01:00:12] And in that space between stimulus and response, the thing that happens and what's going to happen next in that gap in noticing, the better we are at noticing, the more likely we are to observe something that we hadn't noticed before. And this is extremely powerful when we're talking about getting to know ourselves, getting to know the nature of our own minds. So with that set up, you know, and the importance of noticing, we jump to this story that I think is a very powerful story, which is there was a person in a field and they realize a tiger is stalking them. So they start running from the tiger.

Noah Rasheta [01:00:49] And as they get to the edge of the field, it's a cliff, and the tiger's getting closer, and the person hangs down from a vine that happens to be hanging there off the cliff. You're hanging on the vine, making their way down, only to realize at the bottom at the end of the, or at the bottom of the cliff, it's crocodiles down there. And they look up and there's the tiger waiting at the top. And down below you've got the crocodiles waiting. And they're just hanging by that vine when they look up and notice a little mouse comes out from the cliff and starts gnawing at the vine.

Noah Rasheta [01:01:23] So while this person's hanging there, realizing the inevitable inevitability of what's going to happen next, but unaware of the timing, this person looks next to them and they're hanging on the cliff is a strawberry plant with a strawberry. And they take it and they taste it and it's the most sweet strawberry they've ever, they've ever had. And in that moment becomes enlightened. And that's the, that's the story.

Noah Rasheta [01:01:49] When I first encountered this story, you know, especially having the mindset of I, I want things to have meaning, like, well, well, what happened next? Like, how do you. Like, what's the point of that story? Over time, though, this story has become perhaps my favorite because it helps me to recognize that it's, it's a, an analogy for the situation that we're all in, which is the inevitable. The inevitability of death and the uncertainty of its timing is no different. We're hanging by that vine and we don't know how much time we have left. But here's the, the powerful part for me to be able to notice something that perhaps I wouldn't have noticed.

Noah Rasheta [01:02:29] It's almost heartbreaking to think I could go throughout my life and if I wasn't good at paying attention, I might miss out on those little strawberry moments. And these are, are the moments that, I mean that that's what life is. It's full of these little moments and these little things that a lot of us never, never realize because we're always hyper focused on what's, what's up there or what's happening down there, you know, and not looking at, well, what's right here, right here around me.

Noah Rasheta [01:02:58] And I've had various instances since this story came into my life where I feel a tremendous amount of gratitude around a moment where I probably wouldn't have noticed the preciousness of the experience that's unfolding as it's unfolding if I wasn't equipped to be able to pay attention.

Noah Rasheta [01:03:20] And that to me is. It's a precious teaching because at any given moment, regardless of what circumstances you're in, there are these little strawberries in our lives that are Just there, waiting to be noticed that you can cherish and say, wow, I'm grateful that I'm experiencing this. That, to me, is the essence of that story.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:03:42] Yeah, I love that. And I feel like, again, sometimes there's such a focus on the next life that you make decisions and do things now that you wouldn't make without that focus. And that can be kind of detrimental. And sometimes that. That's family relationships, right. If someone's, say, in the church and out, and you kind of let that slide because it'll all be fine later instead of focusing on the important things that are right now. So I've always loved that story, too. We read Noah's other book, Secular Buddhism. That's.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:11] I believe.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:04:11] I believe the tiger story is not mentioned in this one, but it is mentioned in this and. And in the Good Book Club. We read that and we spent, gosh, probably about half an hour discussing just that story and its meaning to us on the other side of Mormonism and how we were now committed to exactly what you said. Those strawberries in life, they're absolutely important. If you believe, like some people do, that there is no next life, this is it. And we need those strawberries to make things meaningful. So I love that story.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:41] Okay, Noah, can I tag onto your meditation kind of short and refer to the book? One of the. An impactful moment for me in the book was reading. I think it was actually around meditation. And you share these, you call them everyday Buddhism, where you kind of share a story from your own life.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:05] And in this particular one, it's looking at a river and you're sharing that you were practicing meditation. I love this idea of amidst life, you kind of drop down deep. You have moments. Maybe it's the strawberry as well. It works for that. But do you mind sharing. Do you know what I'm referring to? The meditation where you start by thinking of a river, and then you start thinking about and noticing things about the nature of a river, and then you start to compare it to yourself being midlife and having people close to me die. This. This was just impactful for me.

Noah Rasheta [01:05:49] Yes. Thank you, Mark. Margi, Trying to remember the. I have a few river meditations, if I recall the one you're referencing. When we look at a river and we see it as a thing, if we look closer, what we start to see is impermanence, the impermanent nature of a river. The river starts with clouds in the sky that turn into rain. That rain makes its way down the terrain or deep underground or mountains. Most often it's mountains, right? And at this, at the start of the river, you have now you have the river established. That seems like a solid thing. And yet again, looking closely, there is no solid aspect to that.

Noah Rasheta [01:06:37] That water will flow. It'll eventually make its way out into a lake or to the ocean. But at some point, it wasn't river then, it is river then it's not river. And there really is no beginning and no end to it. It's. It's part of an overall process of continual change. Looking at the banks of the river, we see the same thing, what seems like a very clear, solid thing. This is the edge of. This is where the water stops and the land starts. But upon further inspection, you realize that's also changing all the time. Whether it's erosion and sand, even if it's rock, it's still eroding, much slower.

Noah Rasheta [01:07:17] But what you see anywhere in that river at any given moment, it's always constant change, impermanence, but also interdependence, the interdependent nature of things. Without clouds, without rain, you don't have rivers. Without rivers, without lakes, without oceans, you don't have clouds.

Noah Rasheta [01:07:38] And it can be powerful, a powerful meditative experience to sit there and look at something that on the surface seems so solid. You think, well, a river is a river. But you look closely and you realize it. There is no river without all the other non river things.

Noah Rasheta [01:07:55] And you can do this. I've done this meditation looking at a river. You can do this. Thich Nhat Hanh talks about looking at a flower. And it's the same exercise. He says, if you. If you've ever looked at a flower and all you saw was the flower, then you've never actually seen the flower. And I think that's a really powerful exercise that we can do. You go out and you look at a plant or a flower in this case, and ask yourself, well, what did it take for this flower to be, you know, without the ground, the dirt that that flower is in, there is no flower.

Noah Rasheta [01:08:28] Without the sun, there is no flower. Without the clouds and the rain and the storms, there is no flower. And then you start to see the flower in this entirely new perspective, which is you see the flower intertwined or interdependent with all the non flower elements. And that is the true nature of the flower, is it? The flower is all non flower elements. That's what makes the flower. And with both of these, whether it's the river or a flower or looking at clouds, we can do the same thing. And Experience that feeling when we look at ourselves. And where do I draw my line? Now there's an expression in Zen where you say, what was your face the day before you were born?

Noah Rasheta [01:09:12] Or who were you before you were? You know, you do this thought experiment and it's hard. You can't really draw a line at your beginning or at your end. In the same way that we, we can't do it with the river. We can't really do it with ourselves either. And for me, when I do that, when I practice that, it can be a really, a really grounding experience where you just feel at one with the entire experience of being alive. I think that's the, that's what you're referring to with the river, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:45] Yeah. And then you, from there you move to. Because I love this. Because my brain does tend to appreciate concreteness, some type of grounding, stability and unchangeability. It can kind of, especially about my own existence. So, like being in midlife now, having parents who are, you know, loss of parents or illness or all those things. Do you mind if I read it really quick? You, you said, and this kind of reminds me of what Rebecca was saying too, where we can be so kind of end focused almost that we don't actually acknowledge the depth and the beauty of, and the changing that's going on right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:37] So after the river thing, you said the river itself is always new, always changing. I then connected this observation with what I had just been observing as I looked inward in meditation. What part of me is permanent? My cells are continually regenerating and splitting. My older memories are fading while new memories are always being added. My thoughts, ideas, and opinions seem to be continually evolving over time. And I realized that like the river, I myself seem like a permanent thing. Yet there is nothing permanent to be found when I look for it. Meditation can bring about a profound shift in perspective when we learn to look deeply at something.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:18] Something as simple as looking at a river can help us find the universal laws of interdependence and impermanence within and without us. I just thought it was really beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:11:34] Thanks. Thanks. Marks. Noah, if you don't mind, talk about a little bit about the life of the person that we've come to know as the Buddha. Talk about what, what is meant in secular Buddhism by enlightenment. And you, you, you talk in the book a little bit about, you know, whether or not Buddha or Siddhartha achieved enlightenment and what enlightenment kind of means in a secular Buddhist sense, and then how that relates to us and, and what we might Strive for. If striving is even a good word for it. Yeah.

The Story of Siddhartha and the Buddha's Awakening

Noah Rasheta [01:12:14] Thank you. So the, There are a few variations of the story, but the gist of the story across almost any of the Buddhist traditions or schools is similar that you had an individual who lived roughly 500 years B.C.

Noah Rasheta [01:12:31] and lived a privileged life. He's often referred, it's often told. The stories told that he was a prince and he was kept within the confines of, of the palace. His dad had big plans for him, didn't want him to be out, you know, questioning things. He just wanted him to, to fulfill the, the princely duties and to eventually become his successor. And Siddhartha wrestled with that because he encountered, at some point in his life, he encountered notions like sickness, old age, death. And he had the thought like, what. What's out there? You know, what, what is the point of all of this? So he goes on this exploration.

Noah Rasheta [01:13:15] He leaves his, the, the princely life behind or the comfortable life, and he goes out and becomes an ascetic roaming. A roaming ascetic, which at the times back then you can picture, you know, the people who just leave it all behind and, and go live in nature and, and try to sort things out.

Noah Rasheta [01:13:35] This is still common in India and other. In that part of the world. So he goes out and he, he goes on this quest where he, you know, he had a life of privilege where he had everything. Then he gives it all up and he has a life of, of extreme austerity where he has nothing.

Noah Rasheta [01:13:53] And I want to say it was like six years of that. And then he, he comes back and, and meets the ground in the middle, which Buddha's Buddhism is often referred to as the middle way path. So he kind of finds this middle way between having everything is not the way and giving up everything is also not the way.

Noah Rasheta [01:14:12] And he's sitting in meditation and he has an experience that we often refer to as his moment of awareness, moment of enlightenment. And that's where the word Buddha comes from. The, the word is anchored in Bodhi or, or it's the word that means Awakened One or Enlightened One. And he goes from being just Siddhartha to people start calling him the Buddha, the Awakened One. So, but then, like, what do we unpack there? What does it actually mean to be awake? The question of what did he wake up to or what, what was he enlightened to?

Noah Rasheta [01:14:51] It can be talked about in different ways in different traditions. But the essence of awakening in Buddhism is again, understanding suffering. If the nature of suffering is that when we want things to be other than how they are. We experience this feeling of suffering, to discover the causes of suffering, to understand that there's a way to have a cessation for the causes of suffering and to live a life where you're on the path that leads to that. That's kind of the Buddhist path, so to say to become awakened or to. To become enlightened in the Buddhist sense, it's often referred to another word for it is nirvana.

Noah Rasheta [01:15:33] And what it means in literally is the extinguishing. So you can imagine a flame, and the flame is burning. To have it extinguished is that moment of awareness. And for us as practitioners, it's that craving. If the cause of suffering is craving, wanting things, wanting things to be other than how they are, the cessation is the cessation of craving or the cessation of wanting.

Noah Rasheta [01:16:03] And I mean, just to unpack it a little bit more, here we have wanting on two different fronts. We want the things that we want, and we don't want the things that we don't want. So it's the same thing, but two ends of the spectrum. For example, I want to be happy, and I don't want to be sad. So if I'm running from sadness or I'm chasing happiness, I find myself in that space of wanting to be awakened. Or to achieve enlightenment in this sense would be to arrive at a place where I no longer need, I no longer chase after one or run from the other.

Noah Rasheta [01:16:37] I'm content with things as they are. In that sense, enlightenment doesn't feel like this esoteric or mystical thing. It feels. It can be a very practical thing where by studying myself and having a greater understanding of what are the things that I'm chasing after and why am I chasing after them, or what are the things I'm running from and why am I running from them?

Noah Rasheta [01:17:00] You can achieve these moments of enlightenment, these moments where everything can feel perfectly fine, just the way things are. Nothing needs to be any different than. Than how it is. That would be a moment of. Of enlightenment or a moment of awareness.

Noah Rasheta [01:17:17] Now, I'm not sure this is where the debate can go, where some people will say, well, does to. To be enlightened, does that mean you never crave anything again and you're just perfectly content all the time? Others will say, is enlightenment something that once you experience it, you can experience it over and over again? Well, it all depends how you define it.

Noah Rasheta [01:17:36] Looking at the Buddha again as an example, after that moment of enlightenment, what happened? Well, he spent the rest of his life Just teaching. He founded a monastery and had people come learn the middle way that, you know, the, the path.

Noah Rasheta [01:17:52] Did he experience suffering? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, his final moments when he, when he passed away, it was stomach issues. Like some say he ate something that was, went bad, you know, and, and, and was sick. So was he experiencing pain in those moments? I would assume so. That's what happens when you're, when you eat something bad that kills you.

Noah Rasheta [01:18:17] So one of the, the risks that we run with any word is when we conceptualize it and we decide, well, what is enlightenment? I have to define it now. I'm bound by the definition that I've given it. And the problem is there are multiple definitions. You could ask one person what it means and that might be different than what you ask someone else what it means. And in Buddhism, one of the continual practices that we're doing is trying to move away from concepts. There's an expression that says the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

Noah Rasheta [01:18:51] So if enlightenment is a word that we use, that's pointing to a state of mind, that's what matters. What is that state of mind? But let's not get lost in what the word is or even define it. I think that can be problematic when we do that with other things. Like love, for example. You may have. It's like, well, I know, I know that I felt it. But it's hard to pin it down in words and say what love is or what love isn't, because then everyone's bound by these boxes that says, oh no, that's not love. Love is this right. I think enlightenment falls into that same category where it's very difficult to define and probably unskillful to rely on the definition itself and more, more skillful to say, what is it pointing to?

Noah Rasheta [01:19:36] That's. If it's a notion, what is the notion pointing towards? And then aim for that rather than aiming for whatever the concept is of it. That's what comes to mind for me as I think of this notion of enlightenment in Buddhist practice.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] Love it.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:19:55] Yeah, I guess I have to stop being selfish and asking my own questions. And I need to start asking some of the questions from members of the book club because as I said this, this was very impactful. We've been discussing it all month, actually a month and a half on the Facebook page. So one of the concepts that we were very interested in was karma. So maybe this is a two part question, maybe kind of clarify that a little bit. Talk to us about karma and then I'll read You the question from one of our book club members, Debbie. She says, I'm writing a paper that asks the question, does the concept of karma inevitably lead to people justifying inequities or inequality?

Karma, Rebirth, and Reincarnation in Buddhism

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:20:34] I'm comparing Buddhist karma, Hindu karma, and very interestingly, the LDS concept of premortality. I'd like to hear Noah's thoughts, especially contrasting secular Buddhism with the karma originally conceived by the Buddha. So I thought that was a really good question, if you'd like. Such a good question, isn't it?

Noah Rasheta [01:20:53] Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great question. So first, karma in the sense Hindu karma and Buddhist karma is different in the. In the traditional sense. Karma is simply the law of cause and effect. And it can vary across the different schools of Buddhism. But I would say by, by far the most common interpretation of karma in Buddha and Buddhism is simply the understanding that this is because that is. It's a basic formula that helps us to understand that all things have causes and conditions. And the law of karma is the understanding that if I do something, there will be.

Noah Rasheta [01:21:40] There's a. There's a consequence. If I don't do anything, there's also a consequence. There's no way to escape the law of karma. Meaning we're constantly in this formula of this is because that is. This present moment gives rise to what the next moment will be like. And like I said, it's whether we do something, what we do, what we don't do, what we say, what we don't say. All of it is factored into what's the next moment is going to be like.

Noah Rasheta [01:22:10] So, but the. But from the Buddhist perspective, there's no cosmic justice system that's behind karma. That's saying, hey, you know, if you're nice and you do good things, then good things will come your way. Does that happen sometimes? Yes, because that, because of karma, because cause and effect.

Noah Rasheta [01:22:28] But can you be doing all the good things and be nice and bad things come your way? Yeah, that also happens. Is that karma, that's also karma because it's just simply cause and effect. But there's not a cosmic justice system behind it that's influencing what's going to happen based on.

Noah Rasheta [01:22:47] On a justice system. But, but I do think it's also important to know you can, you can have, like, decisions that you make that make what's coming next be worse. You know, if I decide I'm going to go rob the bank, the very next thing that could happen and it would be karma is that now I live in a prison and it would be accurate to say, yeah, that's karma. It's like my actions had consequences and my, now I have to own my actions and I have to own the consequences of my actions. That's the essence of karma here.

Noah Rasheta [01:23:26] But in most schools of Buddhism, because there's no notion in Buddhism of a, of a self, a separate self that is a permanent self like a soul. In Buddhism there's the, the view of non self or the idea that there is no permanent independent me. There's the me like we talked about earlier with the river that's constantly changing and, and completely impermanent. So karma in that sense, you know, that do the actions that I take, the, my actions in this life affect what, whatever's happening next? Yeah, sure, you know, to some degree everything that we do affects everything that's coming.

Noah Rasheta [01:24:12] But if there's no notion of a me that continues beyond this experience of me being alive now, I don't view, we don't view karma in that sense of well, I'm going to be nice here so that I get a better life next. That's not that, that's not how the Buddhist interpretation of karma works.

Noah Rasheta [01:24:31] Like I said, you may find some schools where that is a notion. There are a few schools where reincarnation feels like it's, it's, it's a notion. But there's no doctrinal view in Buddhist teachings of, of a continuation of self beyond the impermanent interdependent self. So karma in that sense, it's always viewed as the simple understanding of cause and effect, that all things have causes and conditions. And when you understand that, then you can be more skillful with the things that you do, knowing that what you do really does affect what's happening next. In other words, this present moment is the most important moment because in this present moment are all the seeds of any combination of what the future moment will look like. That's the understanding of karma.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:22] So clarifying.

John Dehlin [01:25:23] I'm excited that I see that Landon is about to join us with the question. But before we turn it over to Landon, Mary has kind of a follow up question. She asks what does secular Buddhism think about reincarnation?

Noah Rasheta [01:25:38] All right, that's a good question. The notion of reincarnation is not, it's not a form of traditional Buddhism. We use the term rebirth. So reincarnation insinuates that the you that exists now, it'll be you in some other form. You know, like you come back as an animal, but it's you. The, the problematic part of that from The Buddhist perspective is there is no permanent you. So what is the part of you that would come back? From the Buddhist perspective, we use the word rebirth. And this is especially true in the secular Buddhist perspective where we. We couple this notion with the understanding of. Of the laws of thermodynamics, that energy doesn't cease to exist, it just changes into different form.

Noah Rasheta [01:26:29] From the Buddhist perspective, rebirth is the understanding that there. There is continual change. Again, quoting Thich Nhat Hanh, he would say, if you. If you look at the sky and you see the clouds and that cloud forms, forms into thunderstorm and turns into rain, that cloud dissipates. It dissipates through rain. But we don't say the cloud died because the cloud didn't die. It.

Noah Rasheta [01:26:57] Its form changed. Now it's rain. When it ceases to rain, we don't say the rain has died. It's just not raining anymore. Now rain is. It's in the river or it's in the ground. You know that what we see is constant change. And for ourselves it's no different.

Noah Rasheta [01:27:13] So we call that rebirth. And rebirth is the understanding that, well, the big picture, there's, you know, me, what happens to me when I die? Well, we know a lot of things that happen. We know that the body decomposes. The elements that make me who I am now go back to being one with all the other elements out there.

Noah Rasheta [01:27:35] That's what we talk about with the notion of rebirth. Alan Watts has a way of expressing it that I've always enjoyed. And he says we are something that the universe is doing in the same way that the wave is something that the ocean is doing. When you see a wave, the wave is a function of causes and conditions that gave rise to the wave. You know, wind, lunar tides, like all the things that make waves be waves. In. In the time frame that the wave is a wave, we see it as a separate thing. We even have a name for it. We call it a wave.

Noah Rasheta [01:28:08] But what happens when the wave reaches the end of its journey and it hits the shore and it goes back to being what it always was? It's the ocean. That's what it always was. We saw the separation of wave and ocean when in reality there is no separation.

Noah Rasheta [01:28:24] And I think we're the same way. We. We sense ourselves as something separate from all the things that are not us. But when you look closely, that's all we are. Literally, the elements, every single element in my body that makes me me. These are the same elements that have come from the stars, from the same things that created the planets.

Noah Rasheta [01:28:48] And that's exactly what you go back to being. So we. We call that rebirth. And we look at this on. Like I said, in the big picture, what does this mean about me, about my parents, about my loved ones? But in the small picture, it's the momentary. It's the same formula. This. This moment exists because of previous moments. The way those previous moments gave rise for this moment to be what it is. But that also means that this moment will give rise to the next moment. And however that moment will be is based on how this moment is. That is the understanding of rebirth. The birth of a moment is the.

Noah Rasheta [01:29:27] The cessation of a moment is the start of a new moment, and the cessation of the new moment is the start of the next moment. That's rebirth. That's what we call rebirth in Buddhism. Hopefully that answers. The notion of reincarnation, though, is.

Noah Rasheta [01:29:41] It's a foreign concept. The idea that a part of you goes on is. That's foreign to Buddhist thought because from that Buddhist perspective, we are impermanent and we are interdependent, meaning there is no aspect of us that is permanent, that continues or there's not, or that is independent of everything else. I hope that makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:03] Yeah. So beautiful. I wanted to just give a quick plug because we're having such great questions come in for your book. No, it's just really quick in talking if you haven't bought the book and you're just kind of tuning in and listening in. Something that I think is notable about the form of the book that's going right along with the questions is that it is actually in question form. So, like, the. The question about karma is in here. The question about reincarnation is in here. But the book is basically question and answer form, so that to me, made it really digestible and accessible. So just a little plug.

John Dehlin [01:30:46] And Rebecca, it looks like your partner in truth and goodness has joined us.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:30:51] Really? My co host on our podcast, Mormon Ish. That's awesome. Hi, Landon.

Guest [01:30:57] Hello. Hi, Noah.

Noah Rasheta [01:31:00] Hi, Landon.

Guest [01:31:01] Hey, great to. Great to get to see you. We really loved your books. And I just wanted to say I read your book. Book for. For this episode, but also Secular Buddhism, which we just loved. And when we left the church and we're looking for something for our. Our teenager, we were able to give him your book. And it just. He really loved it. It was a great way for him to find a different path when. When we left the church. So thank you for that. The. The one thing I Wanted to ask is.

John Dehlin [01:31:29] I've got a.

Guest [01:31:31] My favorite part of the book probably, is when you talk about how each of us is a note in a sheet of music. And that music is kind of the music of humanity. And I just thought how beautiful that was. Could you address a little bit, you know, what our place is amongst all of humanity through Buddhism, How. How we interact with each other? Because I thought that idea of us each being a note in a song and. And that whole work being all of humanity was. Was beautiful.

Noah Rasheta [01:32:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:00] Thanks, Landon.

Guest [01:32:01] Thank you.

Noah Rasheta [01:32:02] Yeah, thank you, Landon. One way I really enjoy visualizing life and reality is the way we look at music. You know, music is composed of sounds and notes and different notes and different. And spaces between the notes. So silence between the notes play an equal part in the importance of the sound of the note.

Noah Rasheta [01:32:33] And when a single note arises, I like to picture myself as right now in this. The universal experience of life. I'm one of the notes, one of the notes in this crazy song that's going on of all these different types of notes out there.

Noah Rasheta [01:32:49] But the nature of a note is a note starts and then a note ends, right? And I think that fits well with the. With the nature of reality for life as well. I find it interesting to think we often lament the thought of the end of the note, the end of our life. We often lament that. Like, man, I. I'm loving being alive. I really don't want to not be alive. But rarely, if ever, do we look and lament the day before we were born. Say, man, had I just been born one day earlier, one month earlier?

Noah Rasheta [01:33:26] Why do we not do that at the front end? But we do at the back end saying, well, once I don't exist. That's when it sucks. Once I don't exist. But why didn't it before? And I feel like visualizing it in the context of a giant piece of music. I don't have to lament the cessation of my note because I know that other notes go on. Like the song goes on. My note starts and ends, but the music doesn't stop. The music just goes on and it evolves into whatever the next stage of the song is. Even if I'm no longer there. I played my part.

Noah Rasheta [01:34:01] I was the one note. To me, that's a beautiful and liberating perspective that makes me grateful. Rather than lamenting the moment when my note ends, I think, man, for however long I'm holding this note, how I could. Cool. I get to be a part of this crazy Song of reality and life.

Noah Rasheta [01:34:22] And I'm going to enjoy it while my notes going. Because I know that one day this note ends. And that's the nature of music too. But the music's still beautiful. We don't have to get caught up and say, well, that one note ended. So now I'm done. I don't want this. I don't want to enjoy this song. The song goes on.

John Dehlin [01:34:39] Beautiful. Well, Landon, thanks for that question. And you know, please check out Rebecca and Landon on their podcast Mormon Ish. It's a cool new podcast that's emerging. Next we have Gene Judson joining us. Hey Gene, welcome to Mormon Stories Book Club with Noah Rachetta.

Audience Questions: Science, Goals, and Buddhist Practice

Noah Rasheta [01:34:58] Nice to see you guys. I'm glad I caught that. There was the book club meeting today.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] Yeah. What's your question for Noah?

Margi Dehlin [01:35:06] So I was wondering, what are Buddhist views about rational thinking, logic and science?

John Dehlin [01:35:12] Beautiful.

Noah Rasheta [01:35:13] Great.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] Thanks, Gene.

Noah Rasheta [01:35:14] Thanks, Gene. Great question. There's a famous expression attributed to the Buddha and one of his key teachings where he says, don't take my word for it. Don't you know the proper way or perhaps the skillful way to approach these concepts and ideas is to try them.

Noah Rasheta [01:35:35] We often say in Buddhism, you can't, you don't preach Buddhism. There's nothing to preach. It's, it's a method similar to the scientific method. You don't preach the method, you put it into practice and through observation and results of the method, you conclude, oh, this is, this is what makes you know, this is what is.

Noah Rasheta [01:35:55] The Buddhist method is very similar in the sense that it's a method intended to be followed and to be tried and experimented. And the conclusions that are drawn are, are very personal because it's like, does that work for you? So in that sense it works very well hand in hand with, with rational thinking, with the scientific method. In fact, at one point, I can't remember if it was the Dalai Lama or if it was Thich Nhat Hanh, but one of the well known Buddhist teachers was once asked, what if something from science were to come along and counter something that Buddhism teaches, what would you do?

Noah Rasheta [01:36:34] And he said, well, we would go with what science proves. And they were surprised at how quickly he dismissed whatever Buddhism teaches. And he said, well, it's because there's nothing to cling to. The Buddhist tradition is trying to impart wisdom that's practical in a way that helps you to live a better life. But if something comes along that is a new discovery that says, hey, that thing is not what you think, then we go with that new thing. That's, that's, that's the, that's the skillful thing to do. And I, I always thought that was interesting because in a lot of other ideologies it wouldn't be that way.

Guest [01:37:09] Right?

Noah Rasheta [01:37:10] It would be. No, this is the way. Whatever comes along, that's what we refute. This is the way where Buddhism is saying, there is no way. There's just, there's how things are. So whatever comes along that we can adopt and say, oh, that, now that we understand that, let's incorporate that. That is the skillful way. So that's the Buddhist approach to rational thinking and science.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] Beautiful. Yeah, thanks, Gene, for that question. All right, Rebecca, you're up next.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:37:37] I'm up next. All right, let me gather another question from another book club member. Let's see. There are so many good ones. Oh, okay, let's.

John Dehlin [01:37:47] And I put you on the spot. Do you want me to give you a second?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:37:49] I've got it right here. I've got it. Hold on one second. Here we go. Okay. Here is a question from book club member Spencer. And he says a common criticism of Buddhism and embracing concepts like non permanence is that by living in the moment, which we've been talking a lot about here, you won't be as motivated for the future and therefore you rob your future of a better life than you would have had otherwise. How would Noah respond to these criticisms? Does Buddhism lead to less goal oriented individuals? Can it lead to more suffering in the long run when the focus is placed on the present moment? That's a very interesting question.

Noah Rasheta [01:38:30] Yeah, it's a great question. I've actually, I encounter that one quite a bit, especially around the notion of goals. Like, the more I practice Buddhism, am I going to be less interested in having goals or things to improve future moments? And I would say no, that's definitely not the case. The understanding, from the Buddhist perspective, we need to understand that there's a notion in Buddhism called skillful means.

Noah Rasheta [01:38:56] And skillful means counters right or wrong or good or bad. And there are stories that help illustrate the point. But the essence here is that we want to be doing the most skillful thing that we can do. And, and skillful means ensures skillful action.

Noah Rasheta [01:39:16] So in the context, in, in this context, in, in the present moment. What I'm focused on in the present moment is, is using the Tetris analogy as an example for however long this moment lasts, that I have this piece that life, you know, the game throughout. And I'm trying to Manipulate it. You know, with Tetris, you can move the piece left and right and you can rotate it to try to make it fit the best way that you can. That requires a lot of skillful action in the moment so that I can, you know, compose myself and get this piece turned in the way that it's going to fit best.

Noah Rasheta [01:39:49] Because the moment the piece is placed and it's done, I'm dealing with the next piece that the game doesn't stop. It just goes on and on and on until it's game over. And that's the Buddhist perspective with, with life. Life is unfolding, but you can't ever not be in the present moment. So we emphasize a lot on this moment because it's literally the only moment you'll ever be in. As soon as you arrive at that future. It's not the future, it's still the present.

Noah Rasheta [01:40:14] So that's why we spend such a. An intense focus on how can I be skillful in this present moment. It's because in this present moment I can take the steps that will help ensure I'm going to be skillful in that future moment, when that future moment becomes the present moment. But what it isn't, and I don't think it's helpful to. To think of it this way, is to think, well, then I'm not going to worry at all about the future.

Noah Rasheta [01:40:40] It would be in the present moment that we would need to take into account. You know, let's just use the example of winter's coming and you need to gather food for the winter. That doesn't happen in the future, it happens in the present. You have to go out and start gathering the things you're skillfully engaging with your present moment so that when that future moment arrives, you're like, yeah, we already gathered all of the wood for the winter or something like that.

Noah Rasheta [01:41:08] And I think that's where the misconception happens. Because often people will say, Buddhism is so focused on the present that they. You don't take anything in the future into account. And I would say that's not accurate. It's. It's so. It's so focused on the present moment because of the understanding that it's always going to be the present moment. So for sure, we're taking things into account from the past and from the present. But rather than spending too much time and ruminating on what will be or on what was, we're focusing on what is.

Noah Rasheta [01:41:40] Back to that. The strawberry example, it's like, yeah, we know what's coming but what are we failing to notice right now? I think there's a good balance. And again, going to the notion of the middle way, in Buddhism, the middle way is a constant theme throughout everything. It's that we don't want to be on the extreme, where I only focus on the future and I'm not living a skillful present. But you also don't want to be in the present moment without any thought or consideration of the future, because that's also not skillful. There's that middle way. So that's how I would answer that. Thank you for that question.

John Dehlin [01:42:16] Love it. We've got several really good comments coming in. I'll just share a couple. One Facebook user wrote. What I love about Noah is that you can tell that Buddhism is not just something he believes, but rather what he is. That sounds Buddhism compatible. Hanoa.

Noah Rasheta [01:42:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] Well, explain the term. If you see Buddha on the side of the road and you can complete the sentence, teach that little principle real quick, now that someone's trying to adore you and lift you up as their example.

Noah Rasheta [01:42:49] Yes, There's a. There's a story. I think it comes from the Zen tradition. But if you see the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him. And it's a. It's a thought that can be a little jarring. You're like, whoa, what on earth? What's that supposed to mean?

Noah Rasheta [01:43:06] And I think what it's hinting at is, again, this notion of concepts. The moment we conceptualize something, it's no longer the thing, it's now the concept. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. So to say, oh, there's a Buddha. I've just conceptualized it. I have to now say, well, what is a Buddha to me? Because that's the. The concept of what a Buddha is and what a Buddha is are two different things. So this phrase of if you see the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him, is saying, kill the concept. Get rid of that idea. Why do you think that's a Buddha on the side of the road?

Noah Rasheta [01:43:42] What if it's not? It's. It's the concept of the notion. And I think that can be a really powerful way of living. Because rather than striving to be the conceptualization of Buddhism, you just think, I'm just going to put this into practice, call it whatever you want, but it's something that I'm doing.

Noah Rasheta [01:44:01] And with other notions, I think it makes sense. With exercise. I mean, what do you call someone who exercises? We don't even really have a word for that. But that's. It's the same thing, right? It's. If you're someone who exercises, what are you? You're someone who exercises. But if we gave that a word, now we conceptualize it. If we were to say, think of yoga. Yoga is similar to. You don't say, hey, there's a yoga or yoga. There's no word for it, I guess. Do you know what I mean?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:44:31] Like, but.

Noah Rasheta [01:44:32] But you're someone that practices it. With Buddhism, we do have a word. You. Oh, that's a Buddhist. Well, kill that. That's the notion. That's the concept. What if there isn't a word? Don't call that. I'm not a Buddhist. What am I? I'm someone who's doing. Doing this and that. That's about as far as I can describe that without getting caught up in that world of concepts.

John Dehlin [01:44:53] So, yeah, if you look at any organized religion and kind of it's this history, it almost always starts with somebody who's trying to do better, trying to achieve some sort of enlightenment, trying to share goodness with others. And then almost without fail, there's this institutional bureaucratic level that gets added to it that almost takes that organized religion to the point where it's actually acting, behaving and encouraging the types of behaviors that are opposite from the. The founding principles. Does that make sense?

Noah Rasheta [01:45:28] Absolutely. Yeah. I always say, I. I feel like when something arises, a new teaching or something, that teaching almost immediately will turn into the teaching about the teaching like you're describing. And I think it. It evolves from there and it can reach a point where it wouldn't surprise me if you brought back. If you could bring back the founders of almost any of these ideologies, they would look at it today and be like, whoa, that's not at all what I was. What I was thinking.

Noah Rasheta [01:45:58] And that's just how it works. We can't help it. That's the nature of evolution. Same with language, right? Take any, any language at its origin. And there is no such thing as the origin because they're always evolving. Always old English versus English now versus turned into German. You know, like there. That's the nature of how things work there. Things are always changing. And I think religion and ideology is the same thing. Ideas evolve. I like that thought, though.

Death, Impermanence, and Living Fully

John Dehlin [01:46:30] Well, we're coming. We're starting to approach the end of our two hours. I want to invite Margi and Rebecca to. To come up with at least one last question. I'm going to go ahead and jump in While they're thinking about that with, With a question for you, Noah, or a request. Actually, one of my favorite stories that you tell is about your friend. You know. Well, I'll start. I'll back up. One of the main reasons people seek religion is to get comfort from death. And you've already talked about that here today in various ways. And, and you've also talked about the present moment. But even though you already have, one of my favorite stories you tell is about your.

John Dehlin [01:47:15] Your friend that you got really close to who then got sick. And I would love you just to share that story, how you tied it to both, you know, ways we can think about death and the present moment. I just want to make sure we capture that wonderful story.

Noah Rasheta [01:47:33] Yeah. Thank you. I think this is the story of my friend Jordan, who, at a relatively young age, he passed away from cancer. And I had the opportunity with him because we were business partners. We would meet every week to talk about the business.

Noah Rasheta [01:47:56] And as his cancer progressed, those meetings turned into meetings about life, and he had an understanding of the inevitability of what was coming for him. He's actually the one who recommended the book, the Tibetan Book of the Dead to me. And that was one of my first big encounters with the Buddhist perspective of death.

Noah Rasheta [01:48:21] And I do remember at times asking him, you know, what does it feel like to know that you're, you know, that death is right around the corner? And I'll never forget that. When he said, I don't know, you tell me, he's like, it could be right around the corner for you, too, but you just don't know it.

Noah Rasheta [01:48:41] And that really. That really hit home the reality of I am in a similar position. We all are, but we just don't know. In his case, he knew that it was coming. It was coming sooner rather than later. And it did turn out that way. It could have turned out that I died in a car crash before he did, but it didn't. But that's the game we're always playing when, with. With interactions with each other. We're always dealing with people who are in the same boat. We're all hanging from that vine.

Noah Rasheta [01:49:13] So that, that was a neat experience for me to be able to have discussions like that with him and to have that sense knocked into me, the. The reminder that we're. We're all, we're all in the same boat.

Noah Rasheta [01:49:29] I, I. Fortunately, I got to experience this later. More recently in my life, my. My dad also got cancer, and he passed away. He's going on two years now, but that whole experience with him, for me, was a fascinating one because I feel like by then I had a pretty deep understanding of the concepts and notions and had put into practice a lot of these ideas that come from Buddhism. And to. To go through that experience with my dad, one thing that really stood out to me is that by then I didn't have a sense of aversion towards the strong emotions that I knew were.

Noah Rasheta [01:50:07] Were headed my way. You know, to lose a loved one is difficult. And to lose a loved one and think, I shouldn't be feeling, this is the second arrow. And I felt that firsthand going through my dad. I was able to really sit with the strong feelings to cry to. You know, I got to have great talks with him in those final days before he passed. And to really feel, to not be afraid of allowing emotions to be seen and to be felt.

Noah Rasheta [01:50:37] I think a lot of times we do because we live in that strange world of, here's how I am, but here's how I need to make sure you think I am. And we're putting up these walls and fronts to defend these stories.

Noah Rasheta [01:50:49] I went into that experience just totally open and, like, raw, that, like, hey, when we cry, we're gonna cry, and there's going to be no shame or guilt around crying. And it was a beautiful experience to go through that without any sense of things needing to be any different than how they are. It's like, here's how things are right now. I feel sadness. I'm going to cry. I'm not going to have any sense of, I wish I wasn't feeling this. I'm going to just feel it. That was a neat experience. That kind of started with Jordan, and then I got to feel it more recently with my dad at almost like what felt like a new milestone in that new framework of understanding reality.

John Dehlin [01:51:31] Love it. Yeah. Religion or traditional religion likes to basically say, well, we've got answers about death. I think the drawback from that can often be that religions can use death or fear of death or, you know, promises about what will happen, good or bad, in the afterlife if you don't do what they say in a way that actually can cause you to not live your best life while you're living it. And so while Buddhism, secular Buddhism, certainly isn't trying to. To make any promises or assurances about an afterlife, what the value that I've gotten from it, where you trade that perceived certainty about what might come next with a real valuing of every moment that you have now.

John Dehlin [01:52:21] Because at the end of the day. This moment today literally is the only guaranteed moment that you actually know that you have. And Noah, you're working. Work. And the work of Buddhism generally has really, really helped that. Helped solidify that for me. Margi, let's have you at least get one more question, and then Rebecca, of course, we'll have you get one last question in or comment.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:43] Okay. All right, well, I'm going to bring in the book again, how it's kind of. So I mentioned its question and answer form, and it's kind of divided into four parts. The first is kind of questions around the Buddha, but the remaining three are kind of core, so core concepts. So questions around core concepts, questions around core teachings, and then questions around core practices. And my question for you, Noah, is to move away from, you know, concepts and ideas and actually ask you personally, when it comes to, you know, teaching specific practices concepts, what are the. Those things that kind of show up for you that you actively either turn to or practice or how. How does Buddhism. How do all these things kind of show up for you in a daily way, you know?

Noah Rasheta [01:53:46] Yeah, that's. That's a great question, man. I think there are so many ways that the core concepts or ideas become practices, and then the practices affect how you interact with life as it's unfolding. I'd say for me, personally, perhaps the most or one of the most powerful practices that has affected my outlook on life is the. The practice of the five remembrances, where you have five key concepts that you're reminding yourself. I'm of the nature to grow old. I'm of the nature to get sick. I'm of the nature to die.

Noah Rasheta [01:54:30] I'm of the nature to experience continual change. And I'm of the nature that my actions and their consequences are really the only thing I own out of those. The. The reminder of death, I think, has been the most profound for me.

Noah Rasheta [01:54:48] I think in. In our Western way of thinking, death is one of those things we kind of don't want to think about because it's uncomfortable. The moment I think about the death of my loved ones, my kids, for example, it's like, oh, I go to places that I don't want to go there. So we push it away. Buddhism comes along and says, no, lean into that. How do you.

Noah Rasheta [01:55:09] There's actually the expression, if you don't think about death, often, you're not really living. And I think that there's a lot of truth to that. Now, what I do, one of my practices is every time I interact with someone, I always have the thought, what if this was the last time I was going to see this person?

Noah Rasheta [01:55:28] Either because you're dying or because I'm dying. Who knows which one? But having that thought pop in quite regularly to every interaction I have has fundamentally changed the interactions that I have with people. Because the thought of death shuffles and prioritizes things in a way that probably nothing else can.

Noah Rasheta [01:55:50] And last night I was at the gas station with my daughter. I took her to the library because she wanted to go do crafts and I had to stop at the gas station to put gas in the car. And as we're walking into the gas station, I had the thought, man, what if we were crossing this? You know, cars that drive past here, what if we were crossing this and a car hit her?

Noah Rasheta [01:56:10] As weird as it sounds, I think this all the time, especially with my close loved ones. But I feel like that's what brings out the preciousness of those moments. Because then it's like, would I regret this moment if this were the last moment? If I think that often enough, I. I truly believe you can reach a stage of having much less regrets. Because when it inevitably does happen, I won't think, man, I didn't think this could happen. I won't think that I'll know I knew this could happen. I've actually thought about it quite often, and I don't think I would have nearly as many regrets about how I lived those moments with the people that I care about.

Noah Rasheta [01:56:49] So, yeah, I think, you know, just thinking about it, it's like, oh, man, it makes me feel like I just want to savor life and savor these moments with everyone. Like right now, it's here, it's with you, and. And the thoughts that I have of you guys feel so precious to me because what if this is the last one? What if you don't see me next time and I don't see or I don't see you next time? It makes every moment more precious. So I'd say for me, that is the practice that's been the most life altering in a very good way. In a way that makes everything feel precious all the time.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:22] Thank you for that.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:57:25] Yeah, thank you for that question and response. That was just beautiful. Kind of gives me goosebumps. So I think I've experienced some karma here because as I was trying to formulate my final question, one of our book club members just texted me and absolutely crystallized what I was trying to say. So this is from book club member Nathan Smith. He's actually an amazing young man who practices the principles of Buddhism and, and meditation. He just did a Mormon Mormonish episode for us on meditation. And he has his own podcast called A Mind Makes this World. And his question is, what needs. Does Noah believe that Mormons and former Mormons struggle with the most that Buddhism could help them meet? I think that's a great question.

John Dehlin [01:58:08] Nice.

Noah Rasheta [01:58:09] Yeah. Yeah, that is a great question. I would say replaying just my, my experience and my current interactions with, with Mormonism because my, my wife is active and believing and my kids, my kids are too. I'm still very engaged in, in the world of, of Mormonism and my. From my perspective, what I would say seems to be a common thing that I see both in, in believing and transitioning and post in the Mormon world is a strong sense of acceptance, like allowing people to be who they are, just as they are in whatever space they're in. As a believer, as a questioner, as a transitioning, can't make sense of left and right.

Noah Rasheta [01:59:01] Figuring it out, like wherever you are, to feel that you're fine, just fine to be right where you are, how you are, I feel is something that a lot of people in our culture lack because we're constantly bombarded with that message of you're not. You're not quite where you should be. Right? The believer thinks, you also need to be a believer, otherwise your life's just not. You're not right. The questioner, the doubter often thinks, hey, now, you believer, you need to be where I am and be questioning too. Or the post Mormon, that's like, that life will be good when we eliminate Mormonism from the face of the earth.

Noah Rasheta [01:59:36] It's like all have the same fundamental desire to feel accepted, but all of them are lacking that from every category. It's like your one group says, okay, yeah, you're one of us. But I feel like one of the needs that perhaps is a great need that I see in all of these categories is to be seen as an us and to no longer be seen as a them, to no longer be seen as you're. You're on the other side of the aisle there. You're on the other side of the, the river. And the big building, the big building's looking back saying, you're on the other side of the river holding on to that useless rod, but everybody's pointing at each other saying, you're not, you're not where you should be.

Noah Rasheta [02:00:22] And I think that's a need that we, we all fundamentally want is to feel that everyone else saying, hey, you're fine right there where you are. You don't need to be anywhere else. I love you and I'm glad that you're there. And if you ever need, I'm over here. I think we lack that a lot. And that's one thing that I try to impart in my approach to my interactions with people, to help them feel that they don't need to be anywhere else. They don't need to be doing anything else or having different views or. It's like, you're fine where you are. And if you ever want to be here, I'm here.

Noah Rasheta [02:00:56] If you ever want to be there, I'll. I've got your back. You're good there. I think that's a need that, if we could all give to each other, would help a lot. Yeah.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:01:09] Yep. That's beautifully said. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:01:12] Beautiful, really. All right, well, no, Rochetta, you know, I was just thinking, wow, we could go on for eight hours. And then I thought, oh, you know, maybe we could even have its own podcast dedicated to this. And I thought, oh, there already is one. But before we get to that, I'm just gonna. I wanna say, don't go away. We've got a couple really quick announcements, but the book is no Nonsense Buddhism for Beginners.

Closing Reflections and Resources from Noah

John Dehlin [02:01:40] Noah also has a really good book called Secular Buddhism, and Noah has an incredible podcast as well called Secular Buddhism, and I think it's the world's top podcast on Buddhism. But Noah, before Rebecca and I make some final announcements.

John Dehlin [02:01:59] Number one, thank you so much for this amazing time. Everyone, please buy Noah's books and please check out his free podcast. Noah, is there any other final words or plugs you want to make before. Before we, Rebecca and I, make a few final announcements?

Noah Rasheta [02:02:15] No, I just want to say thank you for allowing me to spend this time here with you and chatting about these concepts and topics. I also want to say real quick, these ideas, these teachings, these concepts were extremely helpful for me. And that's where all of this comes from in my presentation of these ideas to you, to anyone listening to the podcast. It's not. There's nothing. I'm not selling anything. I'm just.

Noah Rasheta [02:02:43] I. I want people to be able to benefit in the way that I did from ideas and concepts that just brought about a tremendous amount of peace and contentment. And that's the. That's the thing driving behind all of this. It's that I hope that you can truly live your life in a way that you feel happy being what you are and perhaps being a better whatever. You already are. So that's what. That's what I want to end on for my note really quick.

John Dehlin [02:03:10] People. People will be interested to know that you have a whole nother career doing kind of flight instruction. For what, paragliders?

Noah Rasheta [02:03:19] Yeah, Powered paragliding. So when I. When I'm not doing this, what I'm doing is flying. And that's. It's two straight different worlds, you know, And. But it's the two things that I. That I'm passionate about and that I love. And I treat the flying the same way as I do the podcast. I know that flying is not for everyone. I would. The last thing I would ever do is convince you, hey, you needed to be a paraglider pilot like me, because I know that for you, that might be terrifying. The last thing you want to do is be in the air, hanging by strings and fabric.

Noah Rasheta [02:03:50] But some people do want that, and if they do, oh, well, come, I'll. I'll show you and I'll teach you. I treat Buddhism the same way. It's like, it's not for everyone, but if it is something that you want, I'd be happy to guide you that way. So whether you want to learn to fly or you want to learn more about Buddhism, I can help you with both of those.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] And let's have you go out on the plug. You make every secular Buddhism podcast about how people should think about Buddhism.

Noah Rasheta [02:04:16] Yes. You don't need to use what you learn from Buddhism to be a Buddhist. You can use what you learn to simply be a better whatever you already are.

John Dehlin [02:04:24] All right. No, you're a great friend and a great human. Thanks for joining us today.

Noah Rasheta [02:04:30] Thank you. Thanks again for having me.

John Dehlin [02:04:32] Please, please come back.

Noah Rasheta [02:04:34] I will.

Book Club Updates, Thrive Events, and Farewell

John Dehlin [02:04:36] Rebecca, what. What final things would you like to. To share with our audience? It's been. This wouldn't have happened without you. This book club happens only because of you. Thank you for sharing time with Margi, but you're. You're. You're a star. Rebecca, what would you like to leave our audience with today?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:04:55] Oh, I'm just so excited that it's going so well as far as the wonderful guests that we've had on and these incredible discussions. And I would just like to say if you have not jumped on the Mormon Stories book Club Facebook page, please do, because we do have dialogue all the time and posts all the time about the topic and the book. And I guess I'd also just like to remind everybody this is the next book. If you didn't see this at the top of the program when the Moon Turns to Blood. We're going to be discussing the Chad Dell and Lori Valow case. So grab this hard copy or audio and jump on the Facebook page and we'll kind of immerse ourselves in this, this month.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:05:35] Oh, and the meeting is. Yeah, sorry, I forgot. The meeting is Friday, March 3rd at 10am so we have a good solid month to read it, so it shouldn't be a problem.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] And Maven Sleuth, and I think she's telling us it's pronounced Sodi Lee. That's what Mavis is Maven saying.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:05:54] You know, I scrolled back through the notes to see if I could figure. I couldn't even figure out what she wrote, how to pronounce it. So I'm glad you said that.

John Dehlin [02:06:01] Well, I probably got it wrong, but anyway, Rebecca, thank you so much. Also, check out Rebecca's podcast, Mormonish. And if you, you want to join an existing book club, you can join the Mormon Stories book club, but you can also join the Good Book Club, which Rebecca hosts with her book club partner, Landon. And, you know, you're just promoting good book clubs everywhere.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:06:27] Rebecca, you know, I really feel just exactly what you and Margi said, that it's such a way to form community because, you know, you have a set thing that you're doing and focusing on and then you can talk about that and around it and develop friendships. It's just really, really important and a wonderful way and almost excuse to get together. And I'm impressed that you guys have belonged to a book club for, it sounds like years and vacation together. I mean, that's, that's the goal, hope and dream of any book club. Just lifelong friends.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] Yep, absolutely. All right, well, Rebecca, thanks again. I'm going to just give a couple really important final announcements. I started this way. If you want to find friends or build community, there are a couple events coming up that are just really cool. There's going to be a St. George thrive. And by the way, Thrive is just like Noah and Rebecca. Thrive has a loss model. In other words, everything's priced just to cover expenses. And we always have a loss. I shouldn't say we. It's Clint and Jenny Martin that run Thrive. And I just support something I believe in. But Thrive is not to get any money from anyone.

John Dehlin [02:07:32] It's literally just to help build friends and community. So the next Thrive is in St. George. February 24th to 26th. I'll be there. Radio Free Mormon will be there. Alan and Katie Mount for Marriage on a Tightrope will be there. Bill and Amanda Real from Mormonism Live will be there.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] Donna Showalter, Tommy the Tomster Johnson, Anthony Miller. It's going to be amazing weekend. Also know that there's going to be a thrive unite March 18th. We're bringing cult expert Stephen Hasson to Utah and you'll be able to attend a presentation or a Thrive meeting with Stephen Hasson and meet him. He's the author of several books about colts and he's the author of the Bite model that many of you are from familiar with. You'll be able to meet him in person. We're going to have several events that that week preceding March 18th with Stephen Hasson, but there's going to be at least 18 thrive unite events throughout the country.

John Dehlin [02:08:38] Southern California, Northern California, Colorado, Idaho, Arizona, Utah, other places, hopefully Canada, maybe even the UK. Go to thrivebeyondreligion.com to find find a Thrive community in your area. If you want to create a Thrive community or a book club, thrivebeyondreligion.com can help you do that. Again, Thrive wants no money from anyone. It's not a religion. It's literally just a mechanism to support the creation of community.

John Dehlin [02:09:09] So please check that out. I should also throw in there that in addition to the the next book, when the Moon Turns to Blood, we're going to be having Heather Gay on Mormon Stories soon to talk about her book Bad Mormon. Technically that should be a part of the book club, but she needs us to do the interview coinciding with the book launch, which is like in a week or two and the timing just isn't quite working out. But if you want an extra book to add to your book load, we're going to have Heather Gay on soon. You can buy Heather Gay's book in book form or audio form called Bad Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:09:44] And we're really excited that we've got Heather Gay lined up for that interview. And then and then Rebecca will be just announcing every month or two a new book. So if people want to nominate books, if they've got great authors they want to recommend, you can do that at the Mormon Stories Book Club Facebook group. Or you can email Rebecca. Rebecca, how do people email you if they want to reach out or participate?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:10:11] Yeah, a big part of book clubs is making recommendations because that's kind of how we operate. So on the Facebook page under the featured tab, on that page there is a place to post your recommendations and then you can look that and see what other people are reading too. And then you can just email me at rebeccaormonstories.org and I will also on the Facebook page post about Heather Gay's book so that we have that information too. Because you can never have too many books. You have your book club book and then your extra books and your extra books on top of that. So it's all good.

John Dehlin [02:10:41] Rebecca, you and you and Margaret are soulmates. Rebecca all right.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:10:49] I don't doubt it.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] Well, thanks everyone for joining us. Also, thanks to everyone who commented today. We did have at least one person take advantage of our Super Chat feature. Judd Westgate sent us $20 through the Super Chat. Judd wrote, the Church teaches you to rely on its teachings. Secular Buddhism and humanism are stronger moral systems than any church. If any of you want to ever support Mormon Stories or the Mormon Stories Book Club or any other Mormon Podcast or post Mormon Podcaster, please know you can always send us a Super chat.

John Dehlin [02:11:22] In the YouTube interface, there's a little dollar sign next to the chat window and you can donate to support these programs. We rely on user or viewer or listener donations to make all this possible. So thank you for everyone who uses the Super Chat feature. The Facebook interface has a Stars feature, which is how we receive your support there. And of course you can also go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button at the top of the page. That's run by Donor Box, which Noah Rochetta taught me about way back in the day, and you can donate. You can become a monthly donor to Mormon Stories Podcast or the Mormon Stories Book Club through that feature as well. Thanks to everyone who supports us. Again, check out no Nonsense Buddhism for Beginners.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:12:09] We just touched the surface.

John Dehlin [02:12:11] There's so much more. And I have to say personally, there have been many, many sleepless nights where I wasn't able to sleep, where I was struggling with anxiety or even depression. And the Secular Buddhism Podcast was something I would turn on at 2am or 3am and it would soothe me and sometimes even help me get back to sleep when I wasn't able to sleep. So please check all that out. Thanks again, Noah. Thanks again, Rebecca. Thanks to Maven for moderating the chats and doing the time codes and show notes. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, buy these books and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Thanks everybody. You guys take care.

Noah Rasheta [02:12:54] Thank you all.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.