Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 831

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 13, 2017. It's super early in the morning, and we're really excited to be continuing our series on inappropriate interviews regarding sexuality with Mormons. And we've interviewed seven people so far. And last Wednesday we hope to be able to do an eighth interview, but we ran out of time. So this morning we're going to be interviewing Isabella. That is not her real name, and we will not be showing her face. And Isabella, tell us why. Tell us why you don't feel comfortable using your real name or showing your face, just so people understand why this could be challenging.

Guest [00:01:28] Sure. So I am a bishop's daughter. My dad was a bishop while I was growing up. And one, I feel uncomfortable talking about another bishop and my experiences. Well, I don't know if, you know, my own dad did these things. I hope not. I hope. I mean, he doesn't seem like he would, but that's one. And if that were the case, it would really hurt my family. So I want to keep it as anonymous as possible just to not hurt my family in any way.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Totally. Totally. Well, let's jump into it. Tell us a little bit about your background and what will help us understand better your story. Sure.

First Guest: Growing Up in a Spanish-Speaking Branch

Guest [00:02:18] So I am born and raised in the church. My parents were converts. We moved to the United States when we were or my siblings and I were really young and we were raised in California. I was fortunate enough to be raised in a Spanish branch ward. And yeah, I mean, I was a TBM until about the time I was in college and learned a lot about reality. And then just recently, and then left the church and just recently.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Right. So when you say Spanish ward or branch, tell us a little bit more about that.

Guest [00:03:06] Sure. Yeah. I grew up in a Spanish branch and it became a ward while I was a kid.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] And for some people, when you say Spanish ward or branch, they're gonna think like Spain. But tell us what you.

Guest [00:03:20] The people there all speak Spanish. Yeah. And it was. I Mean, after watching so many Mormon stories, podcasts, I guess I feel fortunate. Not that they're more welcoming, but a lot of them are converts. So you don't have this aspect of feeling like you're, like you don't belong or you're the new kid on the block, because basically everyone was there at some point.

Guest 2 [00:03:47] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:03:48] So there are some benefits to growing up in a Spanish speaking.

Guest [00:03:51] And. Yeah, and then there are some, Some disadvantages, but the biggest one would be community. You know, they come from a. Most of them come from, you know, Catholicism where they, they're just one big happy family and they want to eat all the time and party. But so it was. There were some benefits. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] So a lot of, A lot of either sort of Spanish speaking Americans or people who came from Mexico, Central and South America. Is that right?

Guest [00:04:23] That's right. Or sometimes Brazil, we would get some, some Portuguese because that was the closest they could find to their language.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] All right, well, tell us about what these types of interviews were like for you in a Spanish speaking branch and ward.

Guest [00:04:38] Sure. So like I said, I grew up with a. With three different. Four growing up. The first one was not. Was just a bishop. I don't remember much about him. And then my dad was my bishop for a few years, and then after that I had two other bishops. And because of my experience with my own, I kind of had an idea of not what to expect, but what it was like for the bishop who heard this news. For example, I had, you know, there was a boy or a young man who had confessed, you know, smoking marijuana. And, you know, my dad never told me that, but he, if he would see me hanging out with him, he would say, you know, watch. Watch who you're. You're associating with. I never knew why until I was older. And the, you know, the kid told me or the guy told me, but. So when, while my dad was bishop, I had an incident where my brother found me petting with one of the young men in the ward. And I was, I was nervous. I didn't want my dad to know, you know, and so I begged him. Can you hear me?

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Yeah, yeah. He just, he just caught. You guys just walked in or whatever?

Guest [00:06:04] Yeah, he walked in. It was horrible. But I was.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] That would be terrible.

Guest [00:06:09] Yeah, I was, I was. My older perfect and my eyes perfect.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Brother Nephi. It was Nephi.

Guest [00:06:14] It was. Yeah, yeah. And he. So I begged him and I pleaded, don't tell my dad. I will confess to anybody else, you know, and then I will never do it. Again. And I beg and pleading. And so he said, okay, go talk to this president. And by that time, we had a good relationship with the stake president, as any bishop's children would know. And so I did. So I went to the stake president, and I didn't tell him everything. I told him. And my brother walked in and there was a boy in my room. And so he asked so what was going on, and I didn't tell him. I told him, you know, we kissed, but that was it, you know, and he was kind, and he just, you know, said, well, don't do it again. The rule in our house is no one from the opposite sex in your. In your room. And if you keep that, you. You won't have problems. And I stressed to him that I would like that between him and I, and not to. Not to tell my father. So he kept it to himself. And then. Yeah, but that. That was basically it. And so then during that time, just a couple, I think a year later, the kid went. The guy went on a mission, and I wrote him a Dear John, and I ended it with him. I was no longer interested in him. And then my dad was released, and I got this. We had this new bishop who was, you know, he was actually like third or fourth generation lds. His family, like, started the colonies in Mexico. I don't know. He was a big deal. He was supposed to be. And it just felt from day one, he had it out to get me. He didn't like the bishop's daughter that got her way all the time or however I, you know, however bishop's daughters are perceived. I don't know. But he. I don't know. He seemed to have it out for me. You know, for example, he. He would teach her classes a lot during Sunday school. He would randomly jump into our classes. And I wasn't, you know, I wasn't rebellious, but I was. I'm the type of person to correct you if I feel like you're giving us wrong information. And he didn't like that. So one day, I think I really got to him, and he called me in his office, and, you know, he says, you know what? Your behavior in Sunday school is inappropriate. He said, okay. And he said, I'm going to take away your dance card. And I said, my dance card? That's odd. Like, you know, I knew that wasn't protocol, so I told him he couldn't do. So he still did. And so I went home, straight home. And I told my dad, hey, Dad, I got my dance card taken away. And he did the same thing. He said, your dance card? I said, yeah, apparently, I'm not worthy of holding a dance card. And so he called the bishop. He told him that that's not what you're supposed to do. And, I mean, I don't really know what he told him. He gave him whatever spiel two bishops give each other. And then I got it back. I got my dance card back. And he did things like that all the time. He would call me to my office or make me leave a class and stand outside his office and Just really weird. I mean, now that I think about it, it is weird because I felt like it was only me. Anyways, so one day, again, he called my house and he scheduled an interview with me. So I went in and we sat down, and he was. He prayed. And then he was adamant that anything I told him was gonna be confidential. There was nothing, you know, and he just kept saying, you know, no matter what, whatever you tell me, I can't tell your dad. I said, okay. And he said, if I did, I would lose my eternal family. And that's not worth it to me. You know, I'm gonna keep everything you say confidential. Okay? And so then he finally says, so I just found out you used to date this guy, right? The guy that's on it, that was on his mission that my brother caught us with. And I said, oh, you. You heard that? Okay? And he says, well, yes, I heard that there was an incident where he was at your house. And for me, that was odd because I had only told one person. And then there was my. You know, my brother knew, and clearly the guy knew. So I said, yeah, he was at my house. And I have fixed that with the. With Priesthood already. I. You know, I don't know what's going on. You know, I don't know what this is. He's like, yes, but from my understanding, you weren't completely honest. And, you know, this is the part of you that starts thinking, oh, my gosh, he really does, you know, have some type of revelation, right? But I was. I was nervous, and I did. I. At this point, I didn't trust him because of the way he had been treating me. So I was like, no, I told him everything. I told him that, you know, we kissed and I wouldn't do it again, and it didn't happen again, you know, and he said, no, from what I understand, you gave him a hand job. And, sorry, I hope I'm not being too crude. I don't know how else to translate it. And I Said, no, I didn't. I didn't give him a hand job at my parents or me, at my house, you know. And he said, well, again, Grace, Dan, he stressed again, confidentiality issue. And so while I. Okay, I heard that he's. He fingered you? And I said, no, he didn't. And he, you know, started getting a little frustrated, but he. It seemed like he's really trying to keep his patience, like, well, just tell me, has anyone fingered you? No. No. And I'm getting upset and really, really upset with him. And I'm like, no, that hasn't happened to me. He said, well, if it did, what would you like to feel?

John Dehlin [00:12:25] Oh, this is just. This is disgusting.

Guest [00:12:29] It was horrible. And I said, no, I've never done that before. I don't even know why you're bringing it up. And he, you know, anyway, so he would ask a question, I would deny it, and then he would ask me if it happened, what would I want it to feel like, you know? And, you know, he went from everything from that masturbation to then actual sex or actually, you know, actual, you know, copulation. And. And when I denied everything, and then finally he just got to a point where he was like, okay, fine.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Now, were you. Are you. Were you. Were you lying because you didn't trust him or were you not like.

Guest [00:13:11] Well, there was two reasons. The one, the first one was I didn't trust him. He had already proven to me that he. There he was trying to. Who's out to get me.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] Yeah.

Guest [00:13:18] And the second was I knew. I knew what happened afterwards. He was just gonna not trust me. He might not tell anybody, but he would find a way to make me feel or make people see that I was not no good for no good.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] So you felt like he had it out to get you, was trying to make you feel safe, so you would tell him something that he could use against you in some way.

Guest [00:13:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] You just don't feel safe.

Guest [00:13:41] I didn't. And I didn't before this. So you can imagine afterwards. And then he just started asking me about pornography. Do you watch pornography? Have you ever seen pornography? And I, you know, I. At that point, the only thing I said is, I, you know, I've seen naked women before, but that's it. And. And then he said, well, what type of pornography would you enjoy seeing? And then he. That's where he. That was the first time in my life someone had ever mentioned women on women pornography. I had no idea what it was. You know, as far as I was concerned, pornography was Rated R movie. So I said, women on women. What do you, you know? I was like, no, I've never even heard of that. And he said, no, I know you have. But like those were the types of things he was saying is, I know you have, I know you did this, I know you did that. And as far as I was concerned, the incident was at my parents house. I know that wasn't going on at my parents house.

Inappropriate Interview Experiences and Family Impact

Guest 2 [00:14:35] Right.

Guest [00:14:36] So he, so yeah, he asked me what kind of pornography, what kind of pornography does this guy like? And I said, well, he's on his mission. I'm guessing he doesn't like any. Right. And I was really, I, you know, finally he got so frustrated, he said, look, God knows what you're doing, I know what you're doing. And if you don't confess, then I won't be able to give you a temple recommend. I think there was a baptism, Baptisms for the dead coming up soon. And I said, that's fine, go ahead and not give it to me. I will be speaking to the stake president about it. You know, like I said, I was very outspoken, which is why it's so odd to be an anonymous right now. But. So I didn't, I didn't confess to him. And after that meeting, I was really upset. I went home, I didn't tell my parents what was going on because, you know, first of all, my, you know, my parents didn't know what had happened. So I didn't want to out myself, but I was mad and I told my dad I never ever want to be interviewed by him again. And my dad says, excuse me, why not? And I said, I don't want to. I don't respect him. I know he's not a man of God, which I might as well have said I was gonna throw babies off a cliff because he, it just insulted my father's authority. You know, he used to always say, once a bishop, always a bishop kind of thing. So he felt like I was insulting him. And I was like, no, he, this man, he's not a man of God. And it created a huge rift between my father and I. He felt that I was just going off the deep end because I didn't want anything to do with this bishop. And I didn't, I didn't interview with him again. I became, I guess, a bit inactive and that I would, I didn't want to go to mutual. I didn't, I didn't care about the dances anymore, even though those were our thing. We were.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] People are asking what a Dance card is. Can you tell them what a dance card is? Cause that's, I think that's a California thing.

Guest [00:16:30] Is it really?

John Dehlin [00:16:31] I think so, yeah. I think it's Calvert.

Guest [00:16:33] So in order to go. So at 14, it was a big deal for us. Wow. At 14, if you wanted to go to the stake dances we used to have, I think it was multi state dance, multi stake dances. There was five stakes and in order to go, we got these little cards that had like, they were kind of like recommends, but it just told you what you could not, could and couldn't do in a, at a dance. So you couldn't, you know, you couldn't dance too closely. You couldn't wear skirts that were too short, you couldn't wear. Men couldn't wear T shirts, they had to wear button ups. So it just gave. And then at, you know, the bishop would basically interview you and say, have you read this dance card? Yes, I read it. And then they, you know, they'd ask. So you know, like, you're not supposed to do these things. Yes, that's. Yeah, you know, just like kind of like a temple interview, but about the dance. And then if you, as long as you answered the questions, you would sign them. He, the bishop would sign them. And the way it generally worked, the way my dad did it is he would, he would get all the young women 14 to 15 together. So all the my maids and we'd all sit down in his office and everybody's read this. Does anybody have any questions? So if one girl said, yeah, I don't understand why I can't wear a tank top, you know, then he used to tell us, then he didn't have to sit there and have to explain it. He actually also had the mime's leader with us at the time. If because he didn't want to be the one who have to explain because your boobs are showing. Right. So that's what he used to do. Well, this, his successor or his successor would be alone with us to ask these questions. And all that didn't even occur to me until afterwards. So that's what a dance card is. And once you got this little card, you were able to go to the next dance. I think they were for six months. I think that's how long they lasted. And then the next six months you'd get another one. I feel like that's right.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] Okay.

Guest [00:18:30] But that's what a dance card is.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] So thank you for explaining. Randy says it's an Arizona thing too.

Guest [00:18:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] Yeah, it looks like it Was wherever. Outside of Utah maybe, maybe Utah, but where there's a lot of Mormons. Houston. In Houston, growing up, we didn't have a dance card.

Guest [00:18:46] Okay, yeah, for us that was the coolest thing ever. And we all rolled up and like 14 people deep to the stands and we were the life of the party. I feel like we were the life of the party. But anyway, so. But yeah, because of that, at that point, I didn't even care. I didn't want to go to those dances anymore. I didn't want to do anything because as long as I didn't have to meet with him, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it. Then about a year later, which is why I feel not that it didn't affect me, but that it didn't scar me or make me feel shame afterwards. About a year after that happened, he was excommunicated for having an affair with another woman.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] The bishop was.

Guest [00:19:29] Yes, the bishop was.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Holy moly.

Guest [00:19:32] Yeah, he was. He had an affair with another woman. And it was obviously, it's just interesting to see things through, you know, to think of. To see three, to see things through your priesthood family. My dad was on the high council that excommunicated him. So for us, we were just wondering why my dad hadn't showed up to church the whole day. And then what? You know, the next Sunday somebody, a different bishop gets called by the stake president who had been at every activity for that whole week. And yeah, then we find out that he was excommunicated. We didn't know why. I didn't even know why for probably another six, seven months. But when I found out why, I felt vindicated. I said this guy was just a pervert. He wanted, you know, porno ideas to go watch with this other woman. That's what my mind was telling me.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] Right, yeah, that makes sense. Like when you're talking about some of the graphic words you use that he was asking you what person would want to use those words with a minor in a closed room?

Guest [00:20:43] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] And logically, the only thing that would come to mind would be someone who's trying to get their own gratification or who is themselves involved in viewing and engaging in those sorts of behaviors in a way that is not necessarily kind of private with their committed loved one, but instead is, I don't know, operating in a way that isn't aligned with the church's standards even. Because what other type of coarse disposition would make someone want to even use those words in front of a 15 or 16 year old girl?

Guest [00:21:24] Right. And that's. And so I felt vindicated. Yeah. And that, like, in my mind, I was like, oh, he was just a pervert. Okay, that makes sense. Plus, it vindicated my. You know, like, I lied to him. Good. I lied to him. If I had told him the truth, he clearly didn't care about his eternal family, so he would have said something. And so in every way, I felt like I did the right thing, which probably isn't the case, but.

John Dehlin [00:21:49] No, it's kind of cool that you followed your conscience, even the Holy Ghost, if you will. You followed what felt right to you, even though it meant lying. But in a way, you were protecting yourself and you were vindicated. That's a really. I'm proud of you.

Guest [00:22:07] Thank you. I know.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] Isabella.

Guest [00:22:10] Thank you. Which is the reason why I feel like it didn't. Not that it didn't affect me, because it did in just small ways, but it didn't. You know, it affected me in the fact that I became an active for two years, Right. Almost because of him. And. But when I felt vindicated, I felt great. I didn't feel ashamed. I felt that he should be ashamed. But, yeah, it was, I guess, not a good experience. But it didn't seem to harm me the way that it sounds like other people have been harmed, which is unfortunate for them that they haven't found out yet if those bishops were perverts or not. So it was fine. But it did affect me in that when one of my kids decided to be baptized, I did not want that. I mean, there was only a baptism interview, but I didn't want her alone with the bishop at all. And this is years later. And I said, no, you cannot be alone with my daughter in any way ever. And, yeah, that's. Yeah. And.

Guest 2 [00:23:15] Yeah.

Guest [00:23:15] So that was. That was my crazy bit. That was the craziest interview I've ever had. Bishop. But I did have, later on, a bishop. I had a baby out of wedlock. And when I first confessed it to this bishop, he was great. But this kind of talks to the. What you had said about training. We. You know, I interviewed with him. I told him what happened, and he wanted me to read the Miracle of Forgiveness or whatever. And. But then he said something that was interesting. He said, you know, because of our culture, I'm positive you're not considering adoption. Right? And I said, well, no, I wasn't. But he's like, okay, you don't need to consider it. You have plenty of people here to help you with the baby. You have your family to help you with the baby, you don't consider adoption. And I said, okay, that's odd.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] What?

Guest [00:24:09] Right, because it's, you know, it's our culture, you know, you. It's almost taboo for Hispanics to put up their baby for adoption. Right? And so he. That's what he said. And next week I got a phone call, and he called me in his office. He said, so the stake president reprimanded me, I was not supposed to tell you not to consider adoption. What I was supposed to tell you is to consider adoption.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] What? That's bad.

Guest [00:24:37] And so he. And it was. Yeah, because he. You could see the internal struggle, you know, because he's like. So, you know, he gave me a bunch of little pamphlets and he said, so, you know, you should. I guess you should consider it. And I was like, okay. But he. But, you know, you could tell in his self where he's thinking, I don't want you to consider this because again, it's your culture. And actually what he said, this was the first time I'd ever heard anybody say that was. I forget that we need to let go of our culture and hold on to Christ's culture. And that was the first time I'd ever heard that. And not now, until I'm older do I realize, oh, yeah, that's racism. Stop being Hispanic. Stop having Hispanic values and take on our values, which is to put this baby up for adoption. Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] Because we don't know what Christ's values were around adoption. So we're gonna impose Mormon, white, Utah values.

Guest [00:25:35] I just thought, you know, it was interesting to me when you mentioned, hey, they're not trained to take care on these things, you know. Yeah, this guy was a salesman. What the heck was he gonna know about talking to a young woman about whether or not she should give up her kid? Right? He just did what he thought was best, and then he found out that wasn't what was best according to a different guy.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] So the church says that it's a. It's a matter of pride that we have an unpaid clergy, you know, unprofessionals that are just have day jobs. What do you think about that? What was your experience?

Guest [00:26:06] No, you know, I feel there, yeah, there are some great bishops, and then I feel there are some. I mean, not that they're. The only experience I have would be my own dad. And, you know, truthfully, that, you know, there are some things that I feel now. I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe you did that. Right? And it's because he didn't know what, what else, you know, how else can I condemn him? He had no idea what the heck he was doing. He was, I feel he was genuinely just trying to help his congregation, but he didn't know. He had no freaking clue, you know, what, what he was doing. And unfortunately, that could have hurt some people. And. Yeah, that's what. And that, and that's actually why I'm being anonymous, because if he did, I don't want to know and I don't want my family to find out. Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] Yeah.

Guest [00:26:56] So that's. Yeah, it probably hurt people and, and it didn't need to happen if he would have been trained, paid for, to be trained, whatever. And so that's. Yeah, I don't think that that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] What if somebody were to say, oh, well, leaders are fallible. They make mistakes. So that's, you know, that's just what it is. Being in the world. Leaders make mistakes.

Guest [00:27:17] Yeah. If they were trained and paid, they'd be accountable for those mistakes.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] Right, right.

Guest [00:27:23] Which now they're. They're not. They're not accountable. No one, you know, you know, no one's gonna, gonna, you know, investigate these guys for what I would call now sexual harassment. Right. No one's investigating them. No one's asking, you know, asking them if they talk to 14 year olds about penises and. Right. If anybody else would. If your, you know, your daughter brought home somebody, a friend, and you start talking about penises, you'd be in trouble. But this guy does it randomly in a room and he's not held accountable because he's clergy.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Yeah.

Guest [00:27:57] And that's not right.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] So what would you, what do you recommend? What can the church do better? How can it do better?

Guest [00:28:02] One, and I mean, the first thing I would say is stop doing worthiness interviews, period. But if that's not gonna happen, then find professionals to do these interviews or become professionals, but not. Don't have a random person to do it. Doing it.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Yeah. Because even with that bishop and adoption, the point is you don't give people advice. You support them and help them make the decision that's best for them.

Guest 2 [00:28:35] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Not tell them to have an adoption, to adopt, you know, put your kid out for adoption or to not put your kid out for adoption.

Guest [00:28:41] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] Instead you find out what's good for the kid, you know, the client and the kid.

Guest [00:28:46] Yeah, yeah. If he had been professional or if you'd have been even just trained a little bit, he would have been able to give it to me in words that were Less advice and more counseling. But he didn't know how to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] Well, Isabella, I know you got to run off to work, but I really appreciate you telling your story, and I want to have you back if you're willing to tell more. We kind of want to do a series on growing up in Spanish speaking wards or branches. So if you want, maybe we'll.

Guest [00:29:15] I have a ton of stories.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] Maybe we'll do that, because that would be fascinating.

Guest [00:29:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] And we wanted to include you on the Losing the Lamanite series. So we'll have to extend that, Right?

Guest [00:29:25] Sure, whenever. But thank you so much for having me and thank you for listening whoever did. At this time.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] No, we've got almost 100 people, so.

Guest [00:29:33] All right, 100 people.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Yeah. Isabella, you're awesome. And let's have you back soon. Drive safely to work.

Guest [00:29:40] All right. Thank you. Thank you again.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] Thank you. Bye. Take care. And everybody listening. Thank you so much for tuning in to this early morning Mormon Stories episode. Please check us out@mormonstories.org and thanks for your comments and questions. We really appreciate your feedback and questions to help make these interviews more interactive. Hello, everyone, and welcome to part nine in our series on Mormon Stories podcast about bishop and stake president. Inappropriate interviews, but without any further ado, we're really grateful that Hannah has been willing to join us and to share her story as well. So, Hannah, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Guest 2 [00:30:29] Thanks so much.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Yeah, so this is a sensitive thing to talk about, and you're willing to actually use both your name and your face. So I just want to thank you ahead of time for your courage.

Guest 2 [00:30:42] Yeah, it's pretty scary, but I'm excited to do it.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] Well, we've got lots of people joining us. We've got people from Wisconsin, Arizona, Palmyra, New York, Las Vegas. People are joining us from all over. So we're getting a good crowd. So without any further ado, how would you mind kind of sharing, just to begin with, a little bit about your kind of Mormon background prior to when these interviews began?

Second Guest: Long-Time Member Describes Bishop Interviews

Guest 2 [00:31:11] Sure. So my maiden name is Hyde. Orson Hyde is my great, great, great, great uncle or something like that. So my father's side of the family, very long history of Mormon. My mother was a convert, so. And I'm the youngest of 10 children. So I grew up very, very strong in the church. I grew up in Boise, Idaho. I guess I could say that I could count myself lucky that I actually, as a child and as a teenager, I was never specifically asked about, like, pornography or masturbation, but because of some of the lessons. So in young women's, you know, we would. If we ever even mentioned. If we ever even mentioned pornography or masturbation, it was all in the context of the boys. So it was, how can we help the boys stay pure? Or, you know, not look at pornography? And then it would always lead into a conversation about modesty, which I think is a whole nother toxic idea that, you know, we can talk about.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] But it was, you know, if I could just bring that up for just a second. I was talking with a close loved one who actually expressed concern about this series because in her experience, female sexuality was sort of ignored or denied. And that's what she thinks is the most common experience for young women and even women in the church. Do you have a reaction to that or a thought about that?

Guest 2 [00:32:54] Well, I totally agree. And because I was a normal teenager with hormones and I experienced those feelings, but no one ever talked about it, I interpreted that as, oh, I'm not normal. That's not normal for girls to feel this way. And.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] And so, you know, what was that? Why was that hard for you?

Guest 2 [00:33:15] Well, it was hard because, you know, because of what I was experiencing. And I thought, you know, now I can look back and say that it's totally normal. But it was. So there was a lot of shame that I maybe heaped upon myself because whenever these things would come up, it would always be in the context of boys. Like the boys, you know, stay. You know, we need to be gross. It's so gross when I talk about it. We need to be modest for the boys so that they can have pure thoughts and all that, you know, yucky rhetoric. And because so in a weird way, because I was never asked about it, it almost like, for me, emphasized it even more so that when I got to college, I had a healthy dose of shame and guilt surrounding all things, you know, with my sexuality. And so when. And so that kind of brings me to, you know, my experience with the bishop I had recently. I'm just going to share everything today. I recently got out of treatment for an eating disorder. And I was in treatment, and I had completely kind of thrown myself into the gospel again. I was like, okay, I want Heavenly Father to heal me, so I'm gonna keep the word of wisdom and I'm gonna stop drinking coffee, and I'm gonna do everything right. And so I thought that God had healed me when really I had a really great treatment team. So that's probably what happens. But I left treatment and went to byu just so, like, motivated but also very. There was still a lot of shame because I'm such a perfectionist. So, you know, not only with, you know, masturbation and things like that, it was. It was me in all aspects of my life and all aspects in the gospel. It was just. Anything I did wrong was just the worst thing. So I came to the bishop, and I probably had been in this young, single adult ward for probably two weeks. I moved in to my apartment, met my best friend in the whole world. Love her. I'll probably send her this video. But I felt prompted to go to the bishop and confess to him that I had looked at pornography about. It was probably about a year before, so it had been a really long time. I had gone through the repentance process on my own. I really felt like I had experienced a change of heart through my time at treatment, through this repentance process, I felt like a completely different person. But I knew that that's what you were supposed to do. You're supposed to confess these sins to the bishop. And so I went in, and I remember sitting there, and I had not even spoken the words pornography out loud. I'd never even said it out loud. And so I was, like, shaking, was literally shaking. And I remember telling him that I felt like a big pile of sin, that I just was so unworthy, which is really sad when I think about it now. And so I told him, you know, well, there was a. There was one time. So silly when I think about it. There was one time a year ago that, you know, I looked at pornography. And he proceeded to ask me a lot of surprising questions, like, well, what form was it in? Was it videos, pictures, stories? What was happening in these videos was, you know, did I masturbate? How. Like, how long did I look at it? It was just so many questions that I was just. I think he could tell that I was uncomfortable. I was kind of, like, squirming in my seat and getting really nervous. And I think he got a little. I don't know if he got, like, kind of frustrated, like I wasn't being honest, but he said to me, and I just need to know if you were looking at hardcore porn or not. And I can honestly say I didn't even know what that meant. So I was like, no, probably not. I shrugged my shoulders. I don't think so. And I don't know if he didn't believe me or if maybe this was his policy. Like we've talked about, everybody kind of has their own philosophy, every bishop. But he made me not take the sacrament for about a month. And then. And then I can't remember if he wanted to meet with me once a week or every two weeks. But I met with him frequently after this. And it just, to me, added so much shame. That's the word of the day for my story, because it added so much shame to me. And so I would go. Go to church and not be able to take the sacrament. And that was terrible. And. And to me, it kind of like, emphasized that this is not normal and this is very serious and you've done something seriously wrong, and this is, you know, like, just terrible.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] What are the hard parts about not taking the sacrament at church? Just to be explicit.

Guest 2 [00:38:50] Oh, that everyone sees what you're doing. And especially, I think in a. Either when you're sitting next to your family or when you're in a YSA award, I feel like you can't escape. You know, someone passes you the sacrament, you just pass it on through. Everybody knows.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] Kind of like a scarlet letter.

Guest 2 [00:39:11] Yeah.

Guest [00:39:12] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:39:12] And so it made me not really want to go to church, but at the same time, I knew that's what I needed to do to fully repent and become clean and, you know, remove all this shame and this sin that was causing me so much pain. And so, you know, I did all of that and I became. I don't know, I did everything I was supposed to do, and I felt better. And fast forward about a year later, I was engaged to my husband, and I had come in to see him, and I was into confession. I'm not joking. Passionate kissing. Nothing bad, Nothing bad. Which makes me laugh now, but also makes me kind of sad that I felt, like, so guilty about that that I needed to go talk to the bishop. So I talked to him, and he was concerned. He was very concerned. And so he wanted to, like, meet. I think he wanted to meet me every week, and then me and my fiance every other week. So he wanted to see us every week to check in on us, you know. And about a month later, maybe about a month or two months later, I came in again to talk about the same thing. And, you know, just normal stuff that, you know, me and my fiance had gotten a little too close, and the bishop kind of got quiet for a second and then looked at me and was like, do you think you have a sex addiction? And I remember, like, I mean, immediately I was like, no. I was so shocked that he would ask this, but I can. I just remember it almost felt like just my whole body just like shame just washed over me. I was so humiliated. And even though I was like, no, absolutely not, that just familiar voice in my head was like, you are not normal. Maybe he's right. And that was just horrible. And to be honest, I don't even remember the rest of the interview because I just could not stop thinking about that. I was just like, no, I'm absolutely not. I don't have a sex addiction. And I left, and I did not tell anyone about this experience. I didn't even tell my husband until maybe a year or two into our marriage until I finally realized that that's like a really weird question to ask someone, especially someone who's never had sex before. That just seems so ridiculous. But at the time when it happened, I trusted him so much that I was like, well, he wouldn't ask it if he didn't think it, right? And so it was very confusing for me and really hard. And so, I mean, I left.

Shame, Confession, and the Bishop Relationship

John Dehlin [00:42:30] What did you see his relationship with God being in his relationship relative to you and God? Just so that we understand maybe the full gravity of what that type of comment might feel like?

Guest 2 [00:42:42] Well, you know, he's kind of. Whatever. He taught that he. That the bishop's like a mouth, kind of a mouthpiece for God. And I knew that, you know, I trusted bishops and stake presidents so much that I really did. I honestly didn't see any fault with him at that time. I mean, I was. I was, like, upset, but I thought it was just me. Like. Like I was upset because it was true or whatever, you know, like. Like that scripture that says they. They take the truth to be hard or something about, like, sin, you know? And so I literally thought that was me, that I was, like. I was so upset about it because it was true, you know, and so I literally didn't see anything wrong with what he said at the time because I trusted him. I thought that he was inspired, man of God, and that, you know, what he was saying was maybe. Maybe it was true. And so that was really difficult. And so I left. You know, I left, and I actually didn't see him again until. I actually didn't see him again ever. I just decided. I was like, I. And I think part of it was just embarrassment. I was like, I don't want to go back there. And another thing was when it felt like he was using everything that I told him before against me. Like, he was remembering when I had come in a year before, he was remembering when I had come in, you know, and talked about my fiance. So he was kind of Creating this story of who I was, which was so far from the truth, you know, of having a sex addiction, which is just absolutely ridiculous.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] But it felt legitimate to you, definitely at the time. In your self. Shame.

Guest 2 [00:44:36] Yeah, I couldn't shake that. And the repercussions of that lasted

Guest [00:44:45] a

Guest 2 [00:44:45] frustrating amount of time. And I wish that it didn't because, you know, now that I look back, I feel upset that I, that I even let this man know these things about me. I. He didn't deserve. He didn't deserve to know those things. And then for it to kind of stay with me for so long was also a very frustrating thing because I didn't think that he. He didn't. I didn't want him to have power over me. And, and so as. And when I got married, you know, I tried to just kind of stifle these, these thoughts and stuff, but I think it's, it's. It's really ridiculous. Difficult for men and women. But women especially, growing up in the church and, and just learning that, first of all, women don't feel sexual desire and they shouldn't. It's kind of like that's, like, that's so wrong, you know? And then also, you know, we're taught, like, don't think about sex, don't talk about sex. Like, it's just so taboo that all of a sudden you're married and everyone tells you that to have a happy marriage, you're supposed to have sex all the time. It's just confusing. And so I found, I found that I was like trying to do. Excuse me, I was trying to do what I was supposed to do. I was trying to have this healthy relationship with my husband. And yet these, like, shameful feelings kind of kept coming forward. And that was, that was really frustrating because I was just like, like logically I was thinking, there's nothing wrong with this. I'm married. I made it. I made it to the temple somehow, you know, there's nothing wrong with this. And yeah, I couldn't shake these feelings of shame. And I. And I kind of think back and like my entire. I mean, I guess since I hit puberty, every time, you know, anytime that I did feel those feelings, it was always hand in hand with guilt and shame.

Guest [00:47:01] So.

Guest 2 [00:47:03] And so it was almost like I didn't know how to experience healthy sexual feelings without feeling wrong and shameful and guilty and all that stuff. And so that was a huge thing that I needed to kind of unload. I just. They were so heavy. I had to get rid of this you know, this stuff. And it took a long time, and I felt like I didn't quite, you know, when I was first married, I don't feel like I quite processed what was happening. I just stifled. I just swallowed it. I was just like, just ignore it, and it'll go away eventually. And then when, earlier this year, when my husband and I left the church, it felt like this huge resurgence of these old shameful feelings. And I was so confused because it had been a long time. It had been like four and a half years since my conversation with the bishop at this time, or, you know, since the last time that I felt like before I was married, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And so I was so confused. Why these. Why are these feelings coming back up? And I think it's just because I swallowed them for so long and just said, they'll go. They'll go away eventually. And I didn't actually look them in the. Look them in the face and say, okay, I have. I have these. I'm holding on to this. These yucky emotions. Why are they here? And how can I, you know, how can I let them go? How can I, like, leave them, you know, behind?

John Dehlin [00:48:50] Yeah. So that kind of brings us to today.

Guest [00:48:57] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] So if you had to kind of summarize, maybe what the church shouldn't do as it relates to women and sexuality, what would you say? Just to kind of summarize, and then let's just say the church felt like it needed to be involved in the sexuality of its young women. What would you want the church to do? Does that make sense? So what should it stop doing, and what should it start doing?

Guest 2 [00:49:23] Right. Well, I think the first answer is, in a perfect world, these interviews wouldn't happen. Right. But I think that that's. That's not gonna happen. I think that they will still happen, especially for people who are at least over 18. Right. But I think something that's important, and I think that has not been emphasized, is that the repentance process is totally personal. And so the fact, you know, maybe, you know, if I felt like I needed to confess this to the bishop, I feel like that should have been it. I don't think that there need There. There should never be, like, someone not believing you that you're telling the truth. I think that's. That's so harmful that. That you come in and say, I need to confess this, or, you know, they ask you a question, and it just needs to end there. Whatever you say, this is your repentance process. So that's really, that's really important. I think the first thing that needs to change and also, you know, regarding, if we're, if we're going to be teaching our youth about chastity and everything, those are conversations that need to happen with young women with their female leaders, and that's something that needs to happen with the young men separately. And I think it's important that it happens with their female leaders and not when the bishop awkwardly comes in and

Guest [00:50:49] talks about

Guest 2 [00:50:51] pornography and chastity and things. It's just, it's just awkward. And I don't really, I think everyone gets uncomfortable when that happens. And so I think that, that, like, if that's a conversation that can happen with the female leaders and in addition to that, that everyone feels comfortable and okay talking about it, I don't think maybe, you know, I've heard of amazing female leaders that have talked about it and that's great. I think that for the majority, and at least in my experience, that was not the case. I think they were just like, we're just not even going to touch this. We're not even going to talk about it. Or maybe even worst case scenario, they thought we don't need to talk about it. You know,

John Dehlin [00:51:33] so some of the things I've heard you say include, maybe these interviews shouldn't happen. If they do, instead of focusing all the negativity and shame. Oh, sorry. One thing you mentioned was your repentance being between you and God. And no leader being able to sort of question or attempt to insert himself between you and God as it relates to your sense of repentance. Right. And then, and maybe you would like to hear or see a sex positive set of messages for young women and men starting from a young age where sexuality isn't just, you know, to begin with, is acknowledged. So that women especially don't feel like they should have shame just for feeling sexual, but instead they can be acknowledged as sexual beings and have that sexuality discussed in positive terms with women, not just negatively when the men show up.

Guest 2 [00:52:41] Yep. Well, yeah, and that actually reminded me of, you know, that same bishop I'm talking about would often, would often bring the Relief Society and the Elders Quorum together just on random Sundays. And it was almost like chastising that I, you know, that he's constantly getting people coming into his office about the law of chastity. And so now we have to talk about it all together. And it was always just like so uncomfortable. I think specifically for me, because I was like, is he doing this because of me. Excuse me. And. And then I think everybody was just like, oh, gosh, this is so weird that we're all. You know, we're all combined. And it wasn't. It was not a positive message. It was just. It really did feel like he was. There was chastisement. He was lecturing us, like, almost like a punishment. It was. It was very awkward. And so that's something that I think should not happen, especially for. Especially for our youth. You know, I mean, this is. This is a group of adults, and somehow we. I made it out the other side. I hope everyone else did. But, you know, especially not for the youth, because, you know, the youth and children, like, we kind of create stories in our brain to process the information we're getting. And so from a young age, I was processing the information I was getting as, these are bad feelings and extra bad when they are experienced by a woman and even just one leader or one person saying, hey, here's why you feel this way. Let's talk about hormones, and then it's totally normal. Let's go from here and, like, learn as we go. You know what I mean? I never even got that simple sentence, and I think that would have made all the difference for me.

Reflection and Closing Thoughts on First Accounts

John Dehlin [00:54:38] Okay, well, Hannah, I'm so sorry for the difficult challenges. Do you feel like you've been able to kind of work through it? You know, do you have any hope to offer? And for those who maybe have been through similar things, is there a way to a healthier place that you found? And if so, kind of. What has been that path for you?

Guest 2 [00:55:02] I think I managed it on my own, and I think that was really important for me because I had spent so much time kind of disassociating from these bad feelings that I had to look at it and I had to deal with it on my own. And it was very cathartic, and it was also very emotional. I was finally able to look back and say, wow, those questions are really gross. And those questions aren't like, that's so weird. What a. What a weird, shameful question to be, you know, that I was being asked. And now I can kind of laugh about it, which I think is good. But I think that, you know, if anyone out there is experiencing what I was talking about, where any, you know, sexual feelings are just hand in hand with shame and guilt, I think that's something that. That needs to change, because that's not how it should be. You know, we. We shouldn't have to carry those really heavy feelings of shame. And, you know, and sometimes that's something that you can do on your own, or sometimes you need, like, a therapist's help or help from your spouse or whatever it is. But I think that should be. That should be a priority because life is short. Life is too short to carry such gross emotions. You know, such shame is like the worst emotion in my opinion. It just feels so terrible, and I just think we got to do what we got to do to get rid of it.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] All right, well, Hannah, thank you so much for being willing to share your difficult story with us. We've seen a lot of comments here on Facebook Live of people. Kat writes. Absolutely, Hannah. I think the common denominator here is any advice from untrained leaders. So Kat's talking about this lack of training for Mormon priesthood leadership. Hannah writes a different Hannah. She writes the same abuses can happen with the female leaders, though. So again, it's this idea. We want to think that this will all be fixed if women can be leading women. And that's. We just can't assume that that's always going to be the case. Chelsea writes, turn it off like a light switch. She's referring to this idea of all the negative and shaming messages that apply to sexuality. And then we're expected to kind of turn all that off when we get married. And that's not realistic. So. And then a lot of people are just surprised at the level of guilt and shame that you experience just for kissing, which is normal and healthy. Right? Yeah. So, anyway, we're grateful to all who joined us through Facebook Live to share their perspectives. Hannah, we're grateful for you. Anything you want to end with. As we end this interview, any final words or comments or thoughts for our listeners?

Guest 2 [00:58:05] Nope. I think that's it. Thanks for having me, John.

John Dehlin [00:58:07] All right, Hannah, wishing you well. And please take care and join us again on Mormon Stories. Tell us what you do for a living because maybe some people might find interesting kind of what you do.

Guest 2 [00:58:21] Oh, I am a voice teacher. I'm based in Orem, Utah, but I also do Skype lessons. So any singers out there can find

John Dehlin [00:58:28] me@hannahbales.com that's B A Y L E S. And you're a great singer, but you also direct musicals, right?

Guest 2 [00:58:36] I do music. Direct musicals, too. John, you're gushing about me.

Guest [00:58:41] Stop it.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] Where can people see your musicals?

Guest 2 [00:58:44] I'm currently music directing the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee at the Midvale Main Street Theater.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] All right, all right. We'll keep up the good work, Hannah.

Guest 2 [00:58:53] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] All right. Thanks so much and thanks to all our listeners. Please you know send us your email any questions, comments, ideas@mormonstoriesmail.com the conversation continues both on YouTube on the Mormon Stories channel and also at mormonstories.org thanks for everyone who supports us. For those of you who support Mormon Stories podcast and the Open Stories foundation, your donations go to keep us alive to support our mission, to support our staff. So thank you so much for the support. And if you want to support us, if you want to see content like this continue, please do go to MormonStories.org and you can donate 10, 20, 50, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. Those recurring donations are what allow us to keep going. So thanks for all the support. Thanks to everyone who joined us. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormon MormonStories.org thank you very much.

Third Guest: Background Before the Interviews

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 832

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 15, 2017 and this is our 11th interview in a series on Mormon leaders and inappropriate interviews with bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, etc. I know that that seems like a lot, but we're wanting to do a series because we want to get a lot of different perspectives. We interviewed Sam Young, Bishop Sam Young, yesterday. Sam is leading this most recent effort to try and get the church to change. He's got a petition you can sign@protectldschildren.org we're really hoping to get 10,000 signatures. Sam and his wife and his mother Birdie, are going to be on Temple Square December 1st and 2nd to show their passion for this issue. And we're going to try and get some people together to support them as well. But today we're going to be interviewing Sarah. Sarah is not her real name and she's not going to be using video, but Sarah wants to tell us her story about an inappropriate interview or sets of interviews with church leaders. So, Sarah, I want to welcome you, but I welcome you to Mormon Stories, but I also want to welcome everyone who's joining us on Facebook Live. We hope that you will share questions and comments there. That makes these interviews more interactive and more interesting. But Sarah, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Guest [00:02:16] Thanks so much, John. I'm so glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] Yeah. So why don't you give us a little bit about your background in church prior to these interviews, just so we kind of know where you're coming from a little bit.

Guest [00:02:27] Alright. So the interviews that I'm talking about occurred when I was about 16 years old and although I'm not using my first name, I don't mind saying I'm 38 now, so more than 20 years ago. So my background in the church is that I was born and raised in the Covenant. I was actually born and raised in Canada.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] So this is a Canadian perspective.

Guest [00:02:49] This is a Canadian perspective.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] And I think we had one other Canadian perspective so far. So you'll be the second Canadian perspective, I think.

Guest [00:02:55] Yeah. So, I mean, for most listeners may not know that Canada and Alberta in particular is kind of an orthodox place. We're definitely a minority compared to what you would experience in Utah. But the church is strong and has really long and deep roots there. And they really pride themselves on their orthodoxy, particularly in Alberta. So I was born and raised in the covenant there. My mother is a convert. My father is now an ex Mormon, but was at the time, you know, pioneer stock. He was actually born in Provo. So I had this, you know, kind of traditional Mormon upbringing. Although I would say my parents were interesting in that my mother was true believing Mormon. The tbm, however, she was progressive and feminist. And then my father was always some of a new order Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Okay, all right.

Guest [00:03:50] And then as for myself, I was an honor roll on every sports team, kind of all around, all star kind of kid. I was really, really straight arrow kid. So I loved pleasing grownups, I love pleasing church leaders. And I did very, very little wrong in my life from a, you know, wrong from a church perspective. So. And I put a lot of pressure on myself to be perfect and have that more imperfection problem that a lot of young women in particular experience. So when I was about 16, actually a few months shy of my 16th

John Dehlin [00:04:32] birthday, I get it, I get it.

Guest [00:04:36] I went to efy. And at efy I heard this, you know, kind of really fire and brimstone fireside about sexual purity and in particular about masturbation. And at that point I had engaged in some masturbation, but I hadn't even. It hadn't even occurred to me that it was masturbation or that there was a problem with it. But sitting in this EFY fireside, it dawned on me, oh, my goodness, I have committed the sin next to murder. And you know, when I went to see the Book of Mormon musical, and they have the scary Mormon Hell dream.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Spooky Mormon Hell dream.

Guest [00:05:16] The spooky Mormon Hell dream. It was like so hilarious to me. I was crying, but also crying because that spooky Mormon hell dream isn't funny when you're living it. Right? Like so, like I am as bad as Hitler. Yeah, that's how I felt. So, like I was racked with the pains of hell. So here I am, this little perfectionist Mormon. I didn't even know what I was doing was wrong. But then I was hit with, oh my gosh, I have masturbated, and that means I'm going to hell. So I was racked with the pains of hell. And because I'm a very studious, good little early morning seminary student, I knew that, you know, if you commit the sin next to murder, you have to go see your bishop. So I went to make an appointment with my bishop and I actually pulled up my journal from, from when this was happening and read through it because there was something I had forgotten and I think this is interesting. So I had tried to make up an appointment with my bishop and parents got wind of it and my parents, being kind of progressive New Order Mormons, tried to stop me. So I was very tight lipped. I didn't tell them what I was making this appointment for. But they both were like, we don't really want you to go see the bishop unless you really, really have to. But they both said, you know, you don't have to see the bishop for every little thing. You don't. You can keep some things private. You don't need to meet one on one with the bishop. We'd love to be there and help you. And they really strong discouraged me and I, and you know, I think one of my dad had said, you know, the bishop's time is valuable. You don't need to bother him unless it's very serious. And I looked at him in the eyes and was like, it is very serious and carried on. And then I had all this guilt and shame because my parents are looking at me like, oh my goodness, what? She didn't, you know, is she sleeping around? Is she on drugs? And I'm a kid who'd never even kissed a boy, you know, like, you know. And so I had all this shame that my parents are looking at me like I'm evil. But my parents really did try and stop and protect me. But I had been so conditioned to believe that what I was doing was like the sin next to murder then that I had to meet with my bishop. So as I said, I was 15, almost 16. And my bishop, I don't know how old he was, but just from what I remember what he looked like, I'd say early 60s. He may have been mid-50s and just a gray mid-50s, but he was significantly older than me. And I don't actually think that he was turned on by the interview or anything like that, but the way that he proceeded was traumatizing to me. And so I went in. Finally I get my appointment with my bishop because my parents can see I'm hell bent determined to do it. And I go in and he, he confirms this is the sin next to murder. And you know, you're not going to be able to be in the Laurel presidency when you come up next on your next birthday, and you're not going to be able to do these things. And. But what was really bothersome was that he started asking questions about, tell me about the masturbation. When do you do it? Is it late at night? Is it early in the morning? Is it in your bedroom? Do you do it in your bed? Do you do it in the bathroom? Can you describe what you do to masturbate? And for the most part, I deflected these questions, but the invasiveness of them was really, deeply bothering to me. And. And having to describe in detail that experience really, really bothered me. And he didn't just give me a little slap on the wrist. He said, here is the Miracle Forgiveness. I want you to read it cover to cover, and you're not going to be able to take the sacrament or participate in public prayers in church until I say you can. And so I didn't have a real timeline of how that was going to be, but I went away just. Just horrified, like, and really believed that I could never be forgiven and that this. This. This was something that I couldn't get over. And I even felt, okay, I'm going to read the Miracle Forgiveness. I'm going to give him the answers he wants, and we're going to move forward. But I know that this is such a stain on me that it's horrible. So I read the Miracle Forgiveness and. Which confirmed these susp. Made me feel worse and worse and worse. And it also communicated something else to me. And I'm not sure if this was from Miracle Forgiveness or from the bishop or from other messages, but in the course of this process, I understood that me, as a young woman engaging in these things was particularly sexually deviant, that this was kind of like the natural inclination for men, but that women were supposed to be asexual or, you know, to be sexualized by men, but not sexual beings in their own right. And so it made me feel even filthier that I had engaged in, you know, an expression of my own kind of sexual desire. So my. He never called it disfellowshipping, but I'm kind of calling that now, in retrospect,

Discipline, Confession, and Lasting Harm

John Dehlin [00:11:00] in hindsight, this is the same punishment, right? I mean, you're. You're told you can't take the sacrament. You know, you're. You know, you're in trouble, right?

Guest [00:11:10] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] You don't have full privileges.

Guest [00:11:13] Exactly. So. So I don't. I think that the, the disfellowshipping lasted four months, which is like a fairly significant amount of time. And I remember just in every meeting, so I had to meet with him kind of bi weekly, except for this did go over the summer and we had summer holidays, so I don't know that it's strictly set to that, but kind of bi weekly over four months. In every meeting it was the same thing. Like, have you masturbated? Where, when?

John Dehlin [00:11:41] And did you, did you quote, mess up during that time?

Guest [00:11:45] I did, but I lied to him.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Oh my gosh, what was that like? It was horrible to lie to someone you think is God's representative, right?

Guest [00:11:55] Yeah, it was horrible. And frankly, I'm the worst liar in the world. And it like sent my stress levels like through the roof. But I just knew that I had to get out of this. You know, I remember my mom had said to me, like, we're on vacation and it's now been like three months and I haven't been taking the sacrament. My mom's like, you know, honey, I think you need the sacrament to like help you feel whole. Like, I don't. This seems like way too long. And, and then so I'm starting to get this, a little bit of pushback from my family and, and I was like, I just gotta, I just gotta stop this. Like, I gotta, I gotta give the bishop his answers and I gotta move on with my life because, you know, like, I am eternally tainted and nothing's gonna fix that.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] This idea of saying you can't take the sacrament and you can't go to the temple, not only is it public shaming and just really sort of severe for someone who really believes, but it's also with taking away from them the spiritual support or sustenance that they could really use if they're trying in some way to actually become more righteous or more whole or whatever. So it almost seems like a counterproductive punishment.

Guest [00:13:02] I couldn't agree more, John. Like, that's exactly right. And I think that's exactly what my mom was trying to say to me. You know, my mom was, was and is a true believing Mormon, but, but she's a very thoughtful Mormon and, and she was concerned about my spirituality and she knew that I was, you know, like I was the, the top of the seminary class. I memorized every scripture, I cared, I prayed and read my scriptures daily. Like she knew that this was significant to me. And so she was really like you. I think you should consider starting to take the sacrament again if you feel comfortable I don't think you need to wait for the bishop permission. And I had. I never spoke a word to her of what happened in the bishop's office. Never, never, never. My parents never knew and still don't know.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] Yeah, yeah. Just a couple comments from our listeners. Pat says, I'm so glad my kids will not be raised with this guilt and shame. Pat, we hope that's true, too. Not just for you, but for even Mormons who stay in the church. We hope they'll protect their children. Amanda writes sort of detailed questions like the ones the bishop asked. You fetishize the problem. He may not have found it sexy, but who he reports this to probably has. It's a way to shame people and hold power over them. What do you think about that?

Guest [00:14:22] Yeah, you know, I. You know, I don't know what was in my bishop's mind, and I don't want to speak for him, but that's certainly how I felt. And I felt like I was, like, reliving the masturbation. And like I said, I didn't even think that the masturbation was a sin when I had done it. I didn't even know. Like, I didn't put those words together. So it didn't feel wrong. I didn't think it was wrong. But I. What I believe is that the bishop was trying to counsel me, like, oh, if we can figure out if it's late at night, maybe I can give her some patterns, you know, to avoid the late at night or if, you know. I think he was trying to be a psychologist, which he was not. He was a real estate developer. Right. So I think. Yeah, I think. I think subjectively he was trying. He was coming from a good place. But I think there's just something about the structure and the way he was trained and the way that he was taught to be a bishop, that there was some fetishizing going on in there, and that it is very shameful and a way of holding power over women. I absolutely think that. I just don't know if I think

John Dehlin [00:15:33] that that was his intent. Behavior can have the effect of something or it can have the perception of something, regardless of intent. So if I say something that feels sexually harassing, it doesn't matter if I mean it to be or not, right?

Guest [00:15:51] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Because it's a sexually harassing comment, right?

Guest [00:15:54] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] Heather writes, it's never occurred to me that by them calling it disfellowshipping, it is a way to put fear back into the center, thus almost forcing its members to get back in line for fear of further public shaming. So in your case they didn't call it disfellowship meant, but she's just making a comment about that.

Guest [00:16:14] Yeah, no, I, and I think that, and I kind of think that that's what he was going for. Like he, I know he wasn't a huge fan of my dad and his new Mormon order. Mormon ways. And, and like, you know, in previous, in previous interviews with him, he had kind of said, you know, maybe your clothes don't meet the strengths of youth mandate. Which I never understood why, how, where I was coming up short because I didn't wear porn shoulders or anything. Maybe, you know, maybe too tight or something. I don't know, I never understood that. But he had kind of said those kinds of things to me. So I think he may have come down a bit hard on me to like get me to fall in line, you know, to be a more orthodox member because he knows I'm coming from a little bit from a place of unorthodox family. I don't know. But I always had that sense that he was, that this was a process of trying to get me in line.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Yeah. Wow, we're getting some great comments. I hope it's okay. Amy writes shaming, it almost seems like some are made examples of to keep others worried about public shaming and it perpetuates the cycle. That's interesting because if, if you're sitting in the audience and you see people not taking the sacrament or not blessing the sacrament or you notice someone's not at the temple trip, it's like a shock to you saying, boy, I better not ever screw up or I'll be there publicly shamed as well. That's a really interesting dynamic. I hadn't thought of Amy, so thanks for sharing. Amanda writes. Exactly. Each time you see him or who you were forced to report this to, you relive the shame and it's insane. I don't think he was trying to be a psychologist. I think he had poorly written instruction by poor intentioned people. And then, and then Caleb writes, there's zero training. Anything, anything you want to say to Amanda or Caleb?

Guest [00:18:12] Well, yeah, I mean, there's zero training. As I said before, I do think he was trying to help. I never got the sense that he was like turned on by this process. But the reality is that he doesn't have the training. He doesn't know what he's doing and he's following in these patterns that are super harmful. And you know, I am Married to a true believing Mormon. And so my children are being raised in the church now and you know, my daughter is seven and we're coming up on the age of when kids are starting to go into interviews. And you know, just thinking about this issue just sends my heart racing about this incident that happened more than 20 years ago, you know, and it's, it's amazing to me that this is relatively minor compared to the experiences of other people, that it has such an impact on me more than 20 years later and that has such an impact on what I want for my children. And you know how I'm going to navigate that with my mixed faith marriage, you know, so. Yeah, I mean the structure in the system is horrendous and it should not be this way.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] Yeah. Rob writes, my bishop insisted on a masturbation journal. I had to report every time it happened and what ideas I was thinking about while it happened. This was the only way he would allow me to be approved for a mission. Oh my gosh, I've never. Rob, we need to have you on Mormon stories to tell your story, but can you imagine a masturbation journal?

Guest [00:19:47] Well, actually my bishop did actually ask me to record every time I was messing up. And I just didn't do it to say I didn't screw up. Right. But yeah, my bishop asked the same thing. So yeah, absolutely, that's what they're doing and I think they're still doing it. That's the thing, John. Like if I thought that this happened 20 years ago to me and that that was bad, I would say that's bad. And it was commonplace. But we've moved forward. We haven't moved forward. Yeah, that's what I find so problematic about this issue.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] Yeah. Krista writes, this conversation is so important. Thank you, Sarah, for sharing your story. This behavior in the church, especially against women, absolutely has to stop. We agree. Sign the petition, everybody. The petition is as protect. LDSchildren.org really quickly, Sarah, because we've got to get to one more interview. Any other, any, anything else to your story, how it affected you, how it's affected you into marriage and you don't have to, you know, make something up or, you know, if it's not natural. Just anything else you want to share about how this experience, anything else that happened in the experience or how it's affected you?

Guest [00:20:58] Yeah, you know, this issue has, has followed me my whole life. I've had nightmares about it and you know, for the most part I think I'm a well functioning human being. So I'M lucky. But you know, as I got married, I got married in the temple to a worthy priesthood holder and I remember worrying about whether I was worthy from this issue from back when I was 15 years old. And I remember wondering about how do we engage in sexual activity and what's appropriate for me to feel. And I mean, I hope this isn't too personal, but I was always so worried about him having sexual pleasure compared to me that it kind of stunted that growth on my own part in the early stages of our marriage. So I think those, those messages about women as sexualized beings rather than sexual beings really got ingrained into me. And so, yeah, I've carried that with me my whole life and I think that's wrong and I don't want that for other people.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of a double edged sword in the church as a woman because either it seems like you're given excessive shame and guilt for being sort of a sexual being or you aren't even acknowledged as a sexual being. And in some ways non acknowledgement is even more damaging than excessive shame. And so it's tricky, right? And this is, you know, Jennifer Finlayson Fife. I did an interview with her that just talked about how important it is for Mormon women to own their sexuality and to think of themselves as sexual beings and that gratification, their sexual gratification really matters, right? Their pleasure, their sexual gratification. And somehow too many Mormon women reach marriage where that's not even on their mind. Is that true?

Guest [00:22:54] Oh, absolutely. And you know, the work that, that she has done was I remember listening to a podcast of her and just being like, yes, finally, you know, and it was like, like my brains were being blown out. I was just so excited about this because it's just not a message that I ever heard in my life and it was so important to me and unfortunately I didn't hear it until I was kind of in like the middle or beginning of my faith transition crisis, you know, and I would have liked to have heard that when I was a true believing Mormon. And I wish that message was loud and clear to active believing Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] Absolutely. Alma writes, I was never lds. Is it common for children to have these kinds of interviews with their bishops alone, without parents? Alma? Unfortunately, every single Mormon youth 12 and up has these sorts of interviews on a regular basis with their bishops. So the whole reason we're doing this interview is because 12 year old girls alone in a room with the 60 year old men are being asked if they masturbate and how they masturbate and who they had sex with or who they had a sexual experience with or who touched their breast or was there penetration or was there an orgasm or not and was there anal? It's some of the most graphic, disturbing things I've ever heard in a Mormon context. So yes, Alma, that's why we're doing this series. Rob writes all the stories I could share. Amanda writes, my bishop asked me to write down each time I found a woman attractive, where I was and what I was doing. I didn't do it either, but geez, that'd be a pretty big book. So I guess, I guess Amanda was being counseled about same sex attraction, I'm guessing, which is its own workshop, as they say. Let's see. Melissa writes, abuse is abuse. Pat writes, sarah, this issue is going to come up big time as your kids get older. My kids were just about your kid's age when we left. I know it's hard, but you got to establish boundaries between yourself and your kids and the church. That's great advice from Pat for all the people that are still in the church. Jessica writes, I had to go through a bishop's council at 19 and tell a room full of men about my sexual experiences. And it was beyond traumatizing. Eleven years later and I still have dreams where I've done something wrong and I have to go to the bishop's office and confess. And yes, Jessica, it's not just children and youth that are being traumatized. Adults who are having healthy, normal sexual experiences are being shamed by bishops and stake presidents and high councils. And it's really terrible, even for adults. So we gotta stop the kids things. But adults are just as troubling. Scott writes, amazing how many of us have the same story. Spencer writes, I'm perplexed why the church even cares now that I'm out. I just can't see what the obsession with other people's personal sexual experiences is all about. And the final comment I'll read after sitting through this whole Court of Love thing myself at 19, I was just utterly shamed. But as an adult, I can see how creepy it is for a 19 year old to be asked specific details about positions, etc. I met a Never MP Nevermo that told me she had an affair with a Mormon who was on a high council. He would sit to these courts of love and then go over to her house and have sex with her. I had left the church when I met her and I can so see the pervertedness of these bishops and high councilmen actually getting off and being titillated by getting to hear these stories. And we should say that we can't assume that all church leaders get titillated, but we know that there are many that do. One of the interviews we did recently was with a man who eventually within a year, was excommunicated. And he was the one asking about being fingered and all sorts of really graphic things to a young teenage girl in California. So, Anyway, we've got 107 listeners. That's a great audience. We're going to be ending this interview and starting one right back up again with someone from the uk we're going to get a UK experience in here. But before we do, Sarah, is there any final words or perspectives that you want to share on this topic?

Closing the Third Account and Transition

Guest [00:27:12] No, but thank you so much for having me, John, and thanks so much for all the work that you do.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] My pleasure. All right, well, Sarah, this is a really important contribution. Listeners check out LDS, check out ProtectLDsChildren.org, please sign the petition. Thanks for listening. Support us at MormonStories.org, donate if you can. 10, 50, $100 a month can really make a difference. Thanks to all who support us. And check back on the Mormon Stories Podcast page in like one minute because I'll be starting an interview with David shepherd from the uk. All right, Sarah, thanks so much. And thanks to all our listeners who gave comments and questions on Facebook Live. It just makes it more interactive. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 15, 2017, and we are on our 12th interview on a new Mormon Stories podcast series on inappropriate interviews with Mormon bishops and stake presidents around sexuality. So we've interviewed 11 people and this is our 12th. We're really excited. For those who are joining us on Facebook Live, these comments and questions from Facebook Live make it way more interactive. And today we have with us for the first time in this series, someone from the United Kingdom. And he's willing to show his face and use his real name. And so, without any further ado, David shepherd, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

David [00:28:47] Thanks, John.

Fourth Guest: Seventh-Generation Member's Story

John Dehlin [00:28:48] All right, so tell us a little bit about your background in the church before you dive in kind of to your story, if that's okay.

David [00:28:56] Yep. So I was born and raised in the church. I feel like on this program I need to say that I'm like a seventh generation Mormon. Just, just my grandparents and my parents.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] That's legit in the uk. That's a legit.

David [00:29:09] Yeah, so it's a real, real experience. Yeah. So I was, yeah, like I said, born and raised in the church. Largely a positive experience. Growing up in the church. It's kind of, I feel like for, for a lot of people, especially myself, it's kind of all good until you hit your teens. From the sounds of it, other people have this experience and it sort of goes, goes down a bit with the, with the early introduction to this particular topic. But I, Yeah, so I served a mission at 19. I went to Germany, the Germany Berlin Mission, 2010-2012. I got married in the temple. I've since, since divorced. And yeah, I've been sort of not really attending church since about 2013. And yeah, I'm just. This was an important topic as soon as it came up. Really wanted to talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] Well, thank you for, for being willing to share your story with us. Why don't we jump in, David, Tell us how the interviews first started.

David [00:30:16] So the earliest interviews I remember having was probably when I was about 14, 13, 14. And it's funny because it was at a time where I didn't know a great deal at that time, just by that age in school, at least in my experience. We had, we didn't really have much education at that point. You know, it's like early, early sex ed stuff. So wasn't very knowledgeable. We didn't get, obviously at church you don't, you don't really touch the subject until those years. And yeah, I, I just, I remember having these interviews. I think it kind of starts when you go to the temple as a youth for temple baptisms. And I just, I remember there's a specific interview I had that wasn't sort of sexual in nature at all, but it, it set the tone for this particular. You know, whenever this situation would come up again, it would set the tone for every other interview that I'd had. And it was when the. I think the counselor of the bishopric at the time gave a. You know who. I loved him to death. He was a really, really lovely guy. And he's. And he was normally very jokey, but in this instance he got very serious and said, you know, David, I want you to, I want you to know that at this time I'm not speaking as myself. For the next few minutes, you will be speaking to the Savior's representative. And so by proxy, the Savior himself. So I'm just staring at him like, okay, so I obviously I lied through my teeth and didn't sort of Discuss my masturbatory habits. But I, like I said that kind of set the tone for the types of meetings that they were and not that they didn't necessarily come from a good place because again, you know, love the guy to this day. And, and one thing I sort of, I also wanted to make clear before I talk about this subject which I'm sure has been brought up in the other interviews. I've not been able to watch them yet, but it's that I have a firm belief that for the most part the people that do these interviews are, they're operating within a broken system. So, you know, I don't, I don't think that they're, they're, the majority of them are getting all this gratification. I'm sure most absolutely feel embarrassed. When I was a missionary, I gave, as a district leader, I gave interviews to people who would be, you know, I would give them permission to join the church and you know, and I had to ask questions like have you had an abortion and have you engaged in the same sex relationship? So like, I know how uncomfortable those interviews are that no one wants to do them.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Sure.

David [00:33:16] But yes. So the, the main, the ones that I, I wanted to talk about mainly today was the, was the experience that I had in the MTC in the missionary training center in Provo. And I was probably a few, a few weeks into my experience there and I was basically, me and a couple of other missionaries who I really got on well with, we were just, we just kind of stayed up a little bit longer. Like everyone else had gone to bed half 10 and we just sort of stayed up and just chatted and chatted about life and got to know each other and stuff like that. And sort of through these conversations we, you know, naturally we're men, we talk about ladies, that's what we like doing. And just, just sort of our experiences, not like graphic in graphic ways, but just having girlfriends and dating and all that kind of stuff. So eventually, eventually I sort of felt comfortable enough to bring up how I'd sort of had interactions or sort of experiences with women whereby I'd had to go to the bishop and sort of got that resolved.

Guest [00:34:35] And

David [00:34:38] I knew that I had left some things on the table. Like I hadn't spoken about everything in my, in my mission interviews leading up to the mission. And the reason for that was because I wasn't just desperate to not talk about, I just didn't want to have those interviews again. But I felt at the time that I had a spiritual experience, a Very powerful one that was kind of saying to me that I was going to serve a mission at this time. This was my time. You know, there are people waiting for me. So I worried that if I, if I were to be completely honest about my sexual history that I would be stopped from going at that time. So my justification, when I prayed about it and felt, I felt a reassurance and almost a forgiveness really about the things that I'd done independent of any kind of leader, just, just on my own, you know, just praying to God and I felt that reassurance. So I thought, actually I don't, I don't need to talk to anyone on anyone about this. But in the, in the, in the missionary training center that like probably like every two weeks, you know, these massive meetings that we, that, that they hold, they sort of do, would do these guilt, guilt ridden talks about needing to, you know, have basically confessed everything. And if you, you know, if there's anyone in this room that, you know, needs to, feels the need to confess, then, you know, we'd encourage you to do so. So. But it was mainly this, this discussion I had with my friends at the time that led me to think, okay, maybe I should, maybe I should just make sure that I'm doing all the right things. And I go to the branch president and so I went to the branch president and who is a bit of a severe man, but he was kind, he was just a bit scary and he, I basically just, just told him what I had omitted from previous interviews that I'd had and you know, and he nodded. You know, he seemed to be very understanding and, and, and yeah, and he just said, you know, Elder shepherd, thank you for telling me and you know, I appreciate, you know, it's a brave thing to do, but, but this is not within my jurisdiction. Sort of as the branch president. It's, you know, so it's severe enough somehow that it needs to be higher. And I will state for the record as well, I hadn't had sex before my mission, you know, so it was anything below that.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] So like petting. Petting with a girl kind of thing.

David [00:37:31] Yeah, petting, that wonderful term that no one, no one understands. How old is that term? I feel like that's got to be like the 1950s or something. Petting. I feel like I'm petting a dog anyway. So yeah, so I, he basically said that, you know, he would be in touch, that he would sort of have to arrange an interview with. So for those who don't know, the way the MTC is organized. It's kind of like the church in that you've got, you know, you're in your branches and then there's kind of like the equivalent of the state president and you know, the MTC councils are like the area authorities almost. So I went to the equivalent of the state president in charge of our branch and a few others. And so it was a. We're in a lot, it's called a large group meeting. So there were a few groups of missionaries that having a lesson. And then I got on the intercom. Elder shepherd, will you please report to the Da da da da, wherever it was. Which naturally just stopped my heart. And obviously most people in the room didn't know who I was, but the people who did, you know, are all sort of staring at me and I'm like, okay, so I knew what it was about. So it was kind of. Yeah, it was, it was, it was frightening because I really, you know, I didn't think that it was that big of a thing, which is why I even felt okay to go to the branch president about it. But apparently it was. So, yeah, so I went to the, I went to this, this other leader and so what. Yeah, so what happened after that sort of was a very, very long in depth and just an extensive interview process that lasted from. I think it started at half past ten. I'll go into the few of the details in it, but I wasn't finished until about 4:00'. Clock.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] Oh my gosh.

David [00:39:40] So it was, it was an entire day of being in these interviews that, you know, that's, it's crazy to think. And I knew that it was, it was weird and a bit over the top at the time, but it wasn't until years later when I looked back at that and said, was I really in there for that long? And I was, I just, I remember the day really vividly and it was just, you know, it was exhausting at the time.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] So just because we're, just because we're, we're trying to do these 15, 20 minutes. How do you summarize five hours in just a couple minutes? Tell us what, what he was asking.

Graphic Questions and Psychological Impact

David [00:40:18] So the various, so the questions that I was asked, you know, I mean, I think I'd heard that in the last interview. Did you, you know, like, did you orgasm? Did they orgasm? You know, over the clothes, under the clothes? You know, what, what types of porn did I watch?

John Dehlin [00:40:39] Like the types of porn? Why do you.

David [00:40:42] What categories? Did, did I, did. Did I look at. And the, the funny, you know, you're willing to share now. But the funny thing is, which. Because he kind of said, well, so he went straight to child porn, which, like, I was horrified. I was like, what? You know, no. And then below that was. So have you looked at homosexual porn? So I'm thinking you went from child porn to homosexual porn. Like. Like just the fact that there was even a conflation of the. Of the two was shocking at the time. I thought that was really weird. And. And yeah, it was just if I didn't understand the reason for what I was, why I was talking about these. These particular things and the fact that I was. I was having to share this with a complete stranger because it was with this idea that this to do. We're doing this because if you don't, you won't be forgiven. You know, you won't. You know, you're gonna get to. I'm gonna get to heaven and I'm gonna be at the doors and they're gonna be like, oh, so sorry, Dave, you're a good bloke, but you're not coming in because you forgot to mention that detail. So, yes, he basically, he felt the need to. I kind of had to persuade him that I was sexually ignorant, so maybe a little bit more than I actually was at the time. So, you know, I kind of had to be like, yeah, my parents came from a certain generation, didn't talk about it, didn't really hear from much at school and things like that. So I kind of. I. Because I wanted him to basically blame that on the reason as to why I was so horribly promiscuous. And. Yeah, so basically by the end of this, this time, I mean, eventually we. He said, okay, so we're gonna have to call you state president. Which again, you know, heart dropping. So I was just blubbering to my stake president on the phone and telling him how sorry I was that I was, you know, lie to him and that I, you know, X, Y and Z, whatever. Whatever I said at the time. And then he. He asked me then to leave the room and that he would speak to my state prison alone. They were speaking for a bit and then I was invited back in. And then I was told that I needed to. I give him basically the names of the people involved, you know, that I've been sexually involved with. And by this point I. I had so much anxiety and not knots in my stomach that I was on the verge of throwing up. Like I was 95% there. Like, you know, when you start salivating a little bit and you Know, I could feel it coming and I said, look, can I just come back in here in like five minutes? Like I need a throw up right now because it's, it was getting too much. And then he, he looked at me and he didn't, he didn't take his eyes off me. He looked at me and he sort of grabbed the, the, the bin or the rubbish thing under, under his desk and just pulled it outwards and was just kind of like, well, well, you can throw up. You know, you can throw up right ahead there. Elder which for me especially looking back was absolutely horrific because I, I was essentially trapped. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't go. He was, he was physically not allowing me to leave the room because I was going to throw up. So that, that itself was a very, was a very traumatic event. And I wasn't allowed, you know, when we went, went to lunch, I wasn't allowed to leave his side. You know, I didn't eat anything for lunch and he was sort of eating away and, and then after all this, you know. Yes. And after I said that I was gonna throw up, I didn't, fortunately, but I said, I started to try to say the words and I couldn't get any words out because I felt so sick. And so I sort of said, you know, I can't speak. And he, and he replied, well, try spelling them. So I then had to try to dictate letters to spell out names of people.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] And what was that like, having to name names?

David [00:45:36] That was horrible because as far as I was concerned, this is my business. You know, I'm choosing to, to speak about these things personally. And it has nothing to do with anyone else. Nothing to do with it because it's spiritual, right?

John Dehlin [00:45:50] It's spiritual. It's about your mission, it's about your well being, right?

David [00:45:53] Yeah, it's my, it was my sign and commitment to God that I like, I wanted to do this right, you know, I wanted to start this off in the right way of acknowledged that I've made some mistakes, but trying to drag other people into I thought, I thought was disgusting. It just didn't make sense. I couldn't, I couldn't make the pieces fit. So after all that, you know, he basically just, he says, he says, well, Elder Shepherd, I've spoken to your stake president and we both feel that you're, you know, that you've been penitent, you know, you've been repentant, that you're being honest in what you're saying. And I'm like Yeah, great, thanks. So I'm glad you could see that. But then he said, but it's still not within my jurisdiction.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] Oh my gosh.

David [00:46:40] Yeah, where's this going then? And then I had to, I left and they said, well, you know, you're gonna have an interview with one of the, the MTC presidency. And I said, I asked him for a favor. Unfortunately, he did agree to it. I said, do you mind if you can just go in there and prep him, just like tell my story and just let me walk in and discuss it with him. Because by that point I'd retold this story so many times with, you know, in all the intimate details and I can't physically stomach doing it again. And the guy, the guy was really nice. He was, felt much more comfortable with this next person. It wasn't very long, like 20 minutes. I spoke to him and again he said, you know, I really appreciate you coming. You know, you're really very honest and brave, but this isn't within my jurisdiction.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] Oh my goodness.

David [00:47:37] So by this point I just thought, I think I raised my voice a little bit, probably more out of shock than anything, and I just said, well, where's this going? Like, what, what do I need to do?

John Dehlin [00:47:48] President Monson's on his way.

David [00:47:49] Yeah, am I gonna meet Jesus soon? Is he gonna fly down and like personally punish me or something? And he said that, well, you're gonna, you know, your case will be brought before the Brethren. I was like, who is the Brethren? I don't know these things. And he and his, like, well, the brethren to do with the missionaries consisted of a group of 70s and two apostles. And so I said, well, who are the apostles? Because that will make the difference, you know, if I, if I get a light one. Forget. Yeah. So he said, he said, Russell M. Nelson. I'm like, okay, it seems alright. He said, Jeffrey R. Holland. And I just, was, I just wanted to walk out the door straight away and I will, I'm done. So, yeah, I basically had to wait until the next day. And again I was called on the intercom and told to arrive and fortunately I'd, you know, I had been found, you know, clean and that, you know, they were happy to, they were happy to have. This is how it felt like they were happy to have forgiven me, which allowed me to go on my mission. Like it didn't feel like this had anything to do with, with God or Jesus or, or whatever. It felt like I had to prove myself before a judge because I was the criminal guilty of these things. And that was. Yeah. And on reflection, when I was going through this whole thing, I never realized how much of a criminal I actually felt like I'd broken the law and that I was being treated by, you know, I was seeing these policemen that were like, interviewing me about things that I'd done. And, you know, when you look at what the things that I was speaking about, I mean, they're nothing. You know, they're. They're really nothing at all.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] Did you end up meeting with an apostle?

David [00:49:45] No. So they, they put my. I'm guessing that they wrote up notes and just sent it off to. To the committed committee, basically, and they just decided how bad I was.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] And then you were exonerated.

David [00:49:58] And then I was exonerated.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] So what are the. What are the short medium to kind of wrap this up? What were some of the short medium and long term negative effects of that experience, David, so that we can understand how this harms people? How do you feel like you were harmed short, medium and long term if you do?

David [00:50:21] Yeah, I would say the long term, not so much now because my belief system has changed. But at the time, something that the, the second president said to me was that what. Because basically I decided I'd repented of one thing. And I told him what happened, and then he said, so has anything like this happened before that or after or whatever? And I was just like, yeah, but I've already talked about that. I've already. That's already been sorted by a bishop. And he's like, well, you see, Elder shepherd, when you, when you break these laws, you know, it's not. You're not just dealing with the one thing. It unlocks all, all of your other sins, and they're there too, that you have to deal with. So I'm like, so I'm not just on trial now for this. I'm on trial for like, everything sexually that I've possibly done in my life, you know, in all my teens. So that. That just left me feel like I was permanently perverse. Like, like I. I was a criminal that had. That received its judgment and I was allowed to go on my mission. But it made me feel like that I was, you know, kind of, kind of this, this creep, this sexual creature that. That had to be. That had to be controlled and that it was always going to be this thing I had to worry about in my life. So I was worried, you know, when I came back from a mission and when, you know, if I'd masturbate or something. Like what. That, that one time where I did that, that suddenly, based on what he told me, that unlocked everything else that I'd done. So I spent the rest of my time in the church, up until the time that I left, feeling guilty for things that I. That I had done for the past 10 years. And so that I think that had severe impacts on my self esteem. Yeah. Like I said, I felt, I mean I felt abused based on those, those experience, especially in the mtc. I felt like I experienced extreme abuse by the leaders who I understand trying to do the right thing, but the. What's actually happening is completely wrong. And I suffered. Yeah, mental health wise, I suffered as a result. I think there's. I've always had this looming of depression and anxiety because. It always follows you. It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter if you feel forgiven, doesn't matter if you forgive yourself. This stuff always follows you wherever you go. It will never leave you. And I think that's extremely damaging. It was for me.

Mental Health Consequences and MTC Confession

John Dehlin [00:53:00] How did that affect your mental health?

David [00:53:03] I think I probably, I mean I suffer with severe depression now and I've been, you know, been treated for the past few years in order to deal with it. But I feel like my experience of depression happened a lot earlier than even I can probably really recognize. I think probably from again the time I14 that I started to experience symptoms of it because when I was first educated on the subject that church, I didn't really know what quite what they were talking about. So I looked up chastity and like the topical guide and stuff and it's been conflated with sin next to murder. So I'm thinking me jacking off is, is somehow being equated with murdering someone, you know, and so when that's in your mind as a team, you know, that, that, that left me feeling again just, just like filthy. Like I was just a disgusting individual that just had these ghosts that I was so ashamed about. I couldn't tell anyone, you know, it just, it was awful, really awful.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] I'm so sorry. Do you think this contributed to you leaving the church?

David [00:54:14] It. No, it was one of the lesser things. I mean, I'm, I'm fortunate in that I, you know, I didn't experience physical sexual abuse from leaders. It was more. I mean, it was abuse in a different way. I left the church mainly to do the spiritual issues and historical and all the rest of them. So it had more. Yeah, had more to do with those things.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Okay. Well, David, I want to thank you so much for this interview, for your willingness to share that is a harrowing experience. Confessing on other people is something you've brought out. Just this long five hour interrogation, plus the multiple interrogations is a new slant to it. The MTC angle is relevant. And then just this idea of for people who are prone to depression and anxiety, this can be a really devastating thing to have to experience as well.

David [00:55:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] Yeah. Well, David, thank you so much for sharing. We really appreciate it and we hope to have you back on Mormon Stories.

David [00:55:18] Cool. Good to talk to you, John.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] Thank you. Big thanks to everyone else who has joined us for today. Please sign the petition@protectldschildren.org, please share it with others. If you've got a story you want to tell that adds something to the stories we've already heard, please share it. MormonStoriesMail.com is the email address. The website is MormonStories.org please donate. If you value this sort of programming, please become a monthly subscriber because it makes all this possible. David, you're awesome. A shout out to everyone across the pond, all our friends over there.

David [00:55:51] We miss you. Come back.

John Dehlin [00:55:53] All right, I'll come back soon. And thanks for everyone on Facebook Live for joining us. Please tune in again soon for more Mormon Stories. Take care, everybody. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber at mormonstories. Org. Thank you very much.

Sam Young Introduced: Former Bishop and Activist

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 833

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 14, 2017 and we are very excited to have with us today, returning to Mormon Stories, Sam Young, or as we're calling him in this episode, Bishop Sam Young. For those who don't remember, I interviewed Sam young for episode 649 of Mormon Stories. So about a year ago, a little more than a year ago, and at the time, Bishop Sam Young, or former Mormon Bishop Sam Young. But in Mormonism, once you're a bishop, you're always a bishop. At the time, Sam was really interested in the law of common consent and speaking out about how we're not really making use of the law of common consent in the church and that we need more people, you know, voicing their concerns with the church and its teachings and even raising their hand in dissent during ward conference or state conference or even general conference. And Sam still believes passionately that if we're going to have a law of consent, it should mean something. But that's not what we're here to talk about today. So just a couple things. Sam and I go way back because my father and Sam were business partners in a business venture in Houston in the early 80s and mid-80s and maybe even early 90s. No, no, no. It would have been in the 80s. And that's where I got to know Sam as a true believing Mormon. Sam went on to become bishop in, I think in Sugar Land area and in Houston, near Houston. But a couple years ago, Sam started learning things about his faith that were troubling. And so if you want to listen to Sam Young's interview to kind of get caught up to speed, you could do that on Mormon Stories podcast. Again, it's episode 649. But what we're here to talk about today is a new initiative that Sam Young is pushing. Basically, Sam has been learning more and more about how bishops and branch presidents and sometimes stake presidents and mission presidents can have these one on one interviews with 12 year olds, 12 year old girls 12 year old boys, 16 year old boys and girls, even 20 or 30 something year old men and women. And during these interviews, issues of masturbation, of pornography, of sexuality are brought up. And sometimes in these interviews they can become very graphic, they can become very inappropriate, they can become very coercive, shaming, they can become very chaotic. Sometimes the interviews are handled well, sometimes they're handled disastrously, and sometimes really, really bad damage is done. And so what Sam has done is he's put together a petition that he's trying to get people to sign to try and encourage the LDS Church to end its practice of worthiness interviews, maybe generally, but more specifically end its practice of having grown men, 40, 50 year old men sitting behind a closed door with a 12 year old girl or boy asking them if they masturbate. Or even a 20 or 30 or 40 year old woman asking her in what ways did she break the law of chastity, in what graphic ways did she go too far with whoever her partner was at the time? So that is what today's interview is about. For those who've been following us, I think we've interviewed nine different people who have been willing to share their stories of inappropriate experiences with their bishops or stake presidents or mission presidents. And those are going to be the first things that we release as a part of the series. But we just thought we would be remiss if we didn't give Sam Young a chance to catch us up on his life since his interview a little over a year ago. And then also to tell us a bit about where he is now in terms of church and his faith. And then finally to talk to us about, as a former bishop himself, what made him care so much about this issue that he's willing to really put his heart and efforts and money on the line to try and get this changed. So that's sort of the introduction we've already got. Well over 60 people joined us live on Facebook. We're really excited for everyone who's joined us. We want to encourage people to please ask questions. Please post comments that will make these interviews more interesting and also more interactive. And I'll make sure and share with Sam everything that people share in those interviews. So again, welcome to everyone on Facebook Live who's joining us live, but also to everyone who who's joining us asynchronously after this stuff has been recorded and posted to YouTube or wherever it gets posted. So without any further ado, Bishop Sam Young, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.

David [00:06:10] So, John, am I on video now?

John Dehlin [00:06:12] You're on video and audio.

David [00:06:14] I'm on video and I just heard you say Sam Young. John, you must have forgotten what we talked about earlier. I wanted my.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] No, I haven't forgotten. This is your.

David [00:06:25] I wanted my name blacked out. I wanted you to call me Bishop Fred. So my real name. Come on, John.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] Sam, you're always a jokester. We can turn off your camera if

David [00:06:35] we want to and call me Bishop Fred.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Bishop Fred.

David [00:06:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] And we can disguise your voice.

David [00:06:41] Now I can certainly understand why people have wanted to have their faces blacked out. And the names. It shouldn't be that way. We should be able to talk about this freely. But we just. Our culture doesn't permit it and that's not good. I would like to say two things before John starts to ask questions. First of all, I would like to just issue a trigger warning. Some things could be said by me today or by John that could raise bring back to mind trauma that people have experienced in these interviews that we're talking about. I wasn't traumatized. I was never asked these questions as a kid. But I've come to know the trauma that many people have had. So I just want to tell you that I want to apologize if I trigger the trigger, whatever that makes this trauma come back. But I hope that that will be ameliorated by the fact that I'm calling out as wrong what has been happening in the church, that our interview practices are wrong and we're actively working to stop them. Several people have told me that have been harmed, that just hearing someone say it was wrong is part of their healing process. It was wrong. We're working to stop it. And hopefully that can help you understand if I do happen to step on one of those triggers. The second thing I want to say is I've got a dream. I have a great hope. I've got a dream that the crappy parts of our church, we can get rid of those things. The great things in the church. Somebody else is going to talk about those. I want to focus on the crappy stuff that's going on. Let's get rid of those things. My dream is that we can actually, as a membership of the church, work to get rid of these things. John mentioned common consent. Jesus Christ, when we were baptized, empowered each one of us with a voice in his church. He said, nothing is to be done without our consent. The common consent of the members, and I firmly believe that is what is going to save our church, is the wisdom, the understanding, the goodness that is vested in the General members of the church. I've got a dream. We're going to get rid of the crappy stuff. Okay, John, it's up to you now.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] All right, well, you can pretty much end the interview, right?

David [00:09:16] Yeah. Okay, well, no, no, you got to ask for signatures.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Oh, right, yeah, sign the petition. There's a link on this, this YouTube, this Facebook post. But we're going to go back, Sam. We're going to go back and kind of get. Get people caught up. So tell us really quickly where. Where things have been since we interviewed you a little over a year ago. You sort of led this movement to have people vote opposed in their ward or stake or even in general conference. How did that turn out? Honest assessment?

Voting Opposed at General Conference

David [00:09:55] Well, it was an outstanding success. Minor proportions. So there actually were people that voted opposed in their wards, in their stakes, and in general conference. However, it's a small number. I created the common consent register, a record of those who opposed. There are 482 people that signed that, many of them with their name out in the open as opposed to hidden behind the anonymous button. There were very interesting things that came out of that. Many letters were sent to state presidents and bishops relating what people were opposed to, but it's not big enough to really render the change in the church. But I voted opposed at every single. We met, I think Last August of 2016, every stake, Ward and general conference I voted opposed in culminating in last April. I and two other people that went with me voted opposed in the conference center, raised our hands, stood up and shouted opposed. Otherwise nobody notices it.

John Dehlin [00:11:03] Wait, wait, real quick. So first of all, what's it like in your home stake where you had been bishop, to vote opposed and just have everybody know, here goes Sam again. Bishop Sam is gonna now be voting opposed. What was that like?

David [00:11:19] Well, first of all, not many people knew much about what I was doing back then. I had voted opposed in general conference with my wife sitting next to me, and she actually voted opposed with me. But just us two in our living room. I voted opposed in general conference in the stake center. There's only 14 people there. And though both of those happened before the award and state conference, so the ward conference. Well, members of my board saw it there was the state presidency was there, they had seen it. But I'd already been talking to the state presidency for two years at that point, or for a year at that point. That was rather nerve wracking to vote opposed. The state conference again, the vast majority of state had no idea I was sitting like three rows back from the front, Elder Snow, Stephen Snow, the 70 was sitting directly in front of me on the stand. My heart was thumping. I voted opposed. And the high councilor or not high councilor, remember the state presidency that was conducting the vote, looked over at me and said, your vote has been noted. And I appreciated that recognition. Afterwards I went up and talked to Elder Snow and told him, I hope you noticed that I voted for you, but I voted against. I voted opposed at three things, but the, the apostles and the first presidency. But the 70s, the war, the state, they really have no control of this. And I hope you noticed how I voted. He said, yes, I did. Asked me if I'd talked to the stake president. I said, yes, I have. He said, that's exactly the way it's supposed to work. He was very pleasant, nice.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] Okay. And then what was it like to actually vote opposed vocally at general conference? Was that crazy? Was it super scary? I mean, the pressure must have been intense. Just the peer pressure, right?

David [00:13:20] Yeah, it was kind of intense, John. We got there an hour in advance of the meeting started to start. We're let in. So I'm sitting there hoping the hour goes by super slow. I wanted that to continue, but obviously time passes and the voting time came. And so it was a little bit nerve wracking to stand up and shout that in conference. But once that was over, that, you know, lasts about a minute to go through the three that I was opposing and then I was able to sit back, calm down and enjoy the rest of the conference.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Did people give you dirty looks?

David [00:14:00] None.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] No stink eye? No stink eye from anybody?

David [00:14:04] Well, you know what? I wasn't anxious to look anybody in the eye. And you got conference going on and so nobody's really looking at you. A couple of little kids right in the row in front of me, they did look back at us, but they had no idea what was going on. I had a really nice conversation with the people standing right next to me and, or sitting next to me. And I had a nice conversation before the meeting started for that hour. And so we'd become friends and so we had a little. If I was to do it again, I would notify everybody around me that I'm there voting for the church, not against it. I'm there not out of anger, I'm there out of love for what I'm doing. But I didn't have the courage to do that the first time.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] And so are you going to keep voting opposed at any chance you get or you kind of has that kind of run its Course.

David [00:14:55] No, I will absolutely vote opposed because I still. There are still. There are still crappy things in the church, John. There's some super crappy things and we're going to be talking about one of those crappy things. There's no way I'm going to vote to sustain while this stuff is going on, while we are hurting our children.

Sam Young's Evolving Faith and Beliefs

John Dehlin [00:15:13] All right, well, really quickly. So I tried to drill down on your faith, your testimony last time we were together. In some ways you were kind of direct. In some ways maybe you were a tiny bit circumspect. Talk just really briefly if and how your beliefs and your, your behaviors have changed between last interview and this one. In what ways are you orthodox versus unorthodox and orthoprax versus unorthoprax now versus a little over a year ago?

David [00:15:46] Oh man. All those big words that I don't know if I understand. So I'll just give you an answer.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] So beliefs.

David [00:15:55] I believe that I am now on a firm foundation. I always thought I was in a firm foundation, but then I found out a whole bunch of stuff. Felt like I'd been lied to, I'd been deceived, stuff hadn't been told to me, my free agents had been stolen from me for 62 years of my life. And I tell you, it was a tough process over the gut wrenching anger, depression, sadness. And it's not a straight line. You go, anger, sad. Okay, anger, sad, anger, anger. I mean, it's just interesting how you keep finding stuff out and, and it's not just the stuff you find out, but then the culture of our church. I never realized what the culture of the church, great people, but there's cult part of our culture. Like people have to hide in order to talk about their masturbation, interviews. What kind of a culture is that? We can't be honest about what's going on. So it was a gut wrenching process to go through. It came, it caused problems in my marriage, it caused problems in my relationships, my children. All that is pretty much mended at this point. I feel like I've got a closer relationship with my wife than I ever had in my life. I always thought it was good, but geez, you go through something like this and you realize, you come to realize both of us, that our love is based not on a belief, not on the church, not on the prophet, not on any of that stuff. It's based on us, the love we hold for one another. But it took a while to get to that point. Divorce was discussed A few times. Every time it was. I had to tell myself that, look, my marriage is more important than any of this other crap. If I have to give everything up, I'm willing to do that. And I did for a period of time. My wife realized that. And anyway, it just. It took a while to get to where we're at. But I think we're in a great place today.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Are you comfortable talking about what parts of the gospel you do versus don't believe? Do you mind sharing that?

David [00:17:56] Essential parts that everybody in the world believes, that every Christian believes that I hope every Mormon believes. I embrace the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. To love your neighbor, to be the good Samaritan, to look for the least of these, the prodigal son. Those are the things that I embrace. The gospel of Jesus Christ, the teachings, and now more than ever, his example, he stood up for the. He fed the hungry. He was looking for people that would feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit those in prison, those kind of things. So that's really my core belief, is what Jesus Christ taught.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] What about. Do you feel like it's important to, you know, mention what you no longer believe, the things that you reject, not in terms of policies, but in terms of core Mormon doctrines or teachings? Or do you want to stay away from that?

David [00:19:05] I love Gina Colvin. As I'm working through this, she said, I don't give a crap about history. Maybe she didn't say crap. Maybe she said some other word that means the same thing. But it got me thinking that we got a lot of bad stuff in our history. If you look through it, honestly look through it, you'll see we got lots of bad stuff. Okay? I'm willing to say there's bad stuff there. I didn't know about it. My free agency has taken away. I've got my free agency back. But if we have something good today, I can look back in the back and learn from that or say that's. That's in the past. But what we do today has got to be good. And that's kind of where I'm at today. Yeah, there's bad stuff in our past. If the bad stuff is still with us today. No, I don't want it. I want to get rid of the crappy stuff. So I care about the history. I'm interested in the history. It's affected how I view the past, but it's. The children of today are more important to me than what happened in the past.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Okay. And so a lot of the. Let's Just say teachings that Joseph Smith would have taught that made us unique or made us special or made us uniquely true. It sounds like those things maybe are less important to you now.

David [00:20:25] Joseph Smith said some things that I love. He said some things I detest. He did some things I really like. He did some things I detest. So it's kind of a mixed bag. So I have a blog. I've written. I was never a writer, I'm still not a writer, but I've written a ton over the last year and a half.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] Yes, you have.

David [00:20:43] I've got a blog that says I love Joseph Smith. And I quoted something that I've quoted, you know, written about this quote two or three times because it is so good. So I'm going to take everybody is a cafeteria something, a cafeteria Mormon, a cafeteria Christian. They take what they view as good. So I'm going to take what I view as good and I'm going to throw out that which is bad.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] What about behaviors? Is there anything you want to say about things you stopped doing that used to do, that you don't do anymore, that used to be important to you, that now no longer are?

David [00:21:24] Well, last April I quit going to church. Told the bishop and stake president I was stepping away from the church. Not leaving the church, but stepping away because some things were said that were just. I came to some realizations that hit me in the gut. When I came home from an interview, I told my wife something in my heart died on the bishop's desk.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] Well, what happened? What happened?

David [00:21:48] Well, so I've been talking to the bishop and stake president about for two years about there are members that are leaving the church. There are members that are going through a lonely, gut wrenching process. There's no place safe for them to share their journey, to discuss their journey, to discuss their doubts and questions. We need to can we provide a safe place for these good people that are sitting in the pews right next to us? I know people that at the time I knew people in the church that were struggling and hadn't left the church but were trying to come to terms with things. The things I went through all by myself with that gut wrench, lonely journey. And the time came finally when I was told that they weren't going to do anything outside the correlated programs of the church. Now that basically is we're taking orders from Salt Lake City and we're not going to listen to what any member of the church wants or thinks or if somebody's suffering, that's tough luck. I mean, that's the way it came across to me that the church has no interest in its members. The only interest they have is whatever the prophet and apostles decide that goes down, nothing comes back up. I had never felt that before. I had felt that before, but I guess I was in denial. And that hit me in the stomach. And I went home and told my wife, I'm stepping away from the church. That is too hard for me to cope with. Six months last August, I decided I was going back to church. I was ready to go back to church for three reasons. Not because my beliefs had changed, but the reasons I was going back. I don't think we want to go through here. But the day I decided to. Two messages came in. One from a member of the ward that wasn't very complimentary about me, and another one, you liar, you fraud. And I'm just looking at. This is where I'm going back to. The liar and fraud wasn't from a member of our ward. But it. I stepped back and just. And then I was going to go back two weeks later and Hurricane Harvey hit. That put everything on hold for a period of time. I started going back to church last Sunday, but. So I was out for about seven, eight months where I wasn't going to church. So that was the one behavior, I guess, that it changed. I also don't have a temple recommend, so I don't go to the temple. I turned that in a couple months after I talked to you because people were looking at me and saying, you should not even be a member of the church because you voted opposed. You shouldn't have a temple recommend. I'm looking. My issue is not the temple. My issue is the people that are struggling with doubts and questions and hurting. We need to reach out to them, give them a hug, let them know that they can talk about anything if they leave the church. We love them no matter what. And so I figured if I get my temple recommend up, people won't be focused on that. They might list it didn't do anything. They were never interested in members that were in pain and loneliness.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] Got it.

David [00:25:05] So I don't have a temple recommend at this point, so I don't go to the temple.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Got it. Okay, so let's talk about really quickly your role as kind of gadfly, because especially on the Mormon Stories podcast community and on your blog, Invisible's Qubit, it seems like one, two, three posts a day, you're really tormented or you're processing or you're shaking things up and you remind me a Bit of Gina Colvin, and maybe other people are going to say that I share similarities, but it's just. There's another post of a criticism, there's another post of a problem, there's another post of a complaint. What's it like for you to sort of have this role of constantly calling out the problems in the church? Why do you do it? What keeps you going? What good do you think it's going to do to just sort of, some would say, be a dog barking at a train? What's the method to your madness, if you have any.

David [00:26:10] I probably have no method. I probably have a lot of madness. I'm making this up totally as I go along. Now, some people have said you only write negative stuff. Well, I got a couple responses that. First of all, you haven't read my entire blog. There's a ton of positive stuff on there. I had an abscess, a tooth abscess, a couple months ago. I'd never had one before. It hurt like the dickens. I went to the dentist. He didn't look in my mouth and say, man, your tongue looks good. Your gums look good, Your cheeks look good. Oh, man, look at all these other teeth. No cavities? No. He zeroed in on my abscess. Okay. He took the X ray only of the abscess and went about the process of figuring out what we could do. I was not interested in anything. I wanted treatment for the abscess. We've got an abscess in the church. We've got various abscess, but we had a gigantic abscess in these masturbation interviews. This is huge. So I'm willing to let anybody. There's tons of places you can find all the positive stuff about the church. Great. Go there for that. I want to fix this abscess that we've got.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] But it's not just this. There's a lot of things you've been struggling with over the past year, Right. Treatment of LGBT brothers and sisters, treatment of women. You know, the lack of transparency, financial transparency. Right. Aren't those all.

David [00:27:44] When we. When I got married, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] Yeah.

David [00:27:46] Iterate was I blithely unaware that my mother and father and my wife's mother and father and most of our siblings stood outside the temple. I didn't know the horrible hurt that was to my mother. Of course, I didn't know the church had hidden from me. I had no idea that that was totally unnecessary. That marriage is not a temple ordinance. You get married outside the temple. The ceiling's the temple. Ordinance. But anyway, yes, I would like to speak out about that. But something happened earlier this year that really got me this particular vein.

Sam Young Reflects on His Own Time as Bishop

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Well, first tell us how you dealt with masturbation and matters of sexuality as a bishop. Were you guilty now, were you guilty then of the things you're kind of concerned about now or not?

David [00:28:39] You know, I think I count myself lucky. I think it was just, sir serendipity that I was not in the position that of doing the things that I think we should not be doing. So when I was growing up, I never was, never asked in an interview once about masturbation. Now it was taught, you heard it. I remember sitting in the. I think I was in. I was in General Conference when they had the little factory talk. So it was talked about. I grew up in the days that the miracle of forgiveness, that was the Bible for the kids. But no bishop ever. I didn't have to endure the shame of a bishop asking me that. I was asked once on my mission and that was it. Never, ever after that. So when I became bishop, the thought never entered my mind, oh, here's a 12 year old, let me ask her if she masturbates. The thought never entered my mind. Why in the world would that enter anybody's mind to ask a child about that? So I never asked any kid about that. One child came in, 12 or 13 year old came in and confessed it. And that was once. And I don't remember exactly what I said. I think I told him, that's okay, you've now confessed, don't worry about it. At this point, if he masturbated after that, well, I never heard about it. The statistics are that almost every boy masturbates. So I'm guessing that every kid like in every award was engaged in that practice. But. So I never asked that. When I was a bishop, I never received any training to do that. I would hope that I would have objected if I ever did, but I never did.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] Okay, I'm going to ask you a really personal question.

David [00:30:37] Yikes. And I think you're going to black things out now.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] No, no, no, I think you can handle it. Did you masturbate as a bishop?

David [00:30:47] Well, I'd have to think about that for a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] You don't have to answer that. It is a bit.

David [00:30:54] John, let me say this. You've asked that question and I thought a lot about that question.

John Dehlin [00:31:00] In other words, I'm trying to. It would be interesting to find out if bishops masturbated. You would think that they would, right?

David [00:31:05] And so that is. Yes, because you asked me that question a year and a half ago and I told you. Well, I have no idea if they do. First of all, I think the question you just asked is totally inappropriate. I'm not going to answer your question. Good,

John Dehlin [00:31:22] good.

David [00:31:22] I'm glad for anybody to ask that question to an adult or youth. That is a private matter for someone.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] I love it. Good answer, Good answer.

David [00:31:35] But since you and I had that conversation, I've talked to bishops and high priest group leaders that have told me that they engage in that practice, that have told me they struggled with pornography.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] So as bishops, right?

David [00:31:52] As bishops, yes. So it's only bishops and high priest group leaders that I had a sit down conversation with. But you know what, John? I don't believe that has anything to do with the issue I'm concerned about. They're adults, they are people. But I really don't care what their personal life is. My concern is for those children that we are damaging. That's where I'd like our interview, really.

Origins of the Protect LDS Children Petition

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Okay. All right, we're there. So tell us how you got interested in this issue. Thanks for getting our listeners up to speed on your life. People care about you, Sam. So I just wanted to take that time. But now let's jump in. How did you start getting into this issue as the latest one you wanted to really focus on?

David [00:32:43] So as I'm going through this faith transition, I start to hear a few things about kids being held back from going on a mission because of masturbation. One kid, grandson of one of my good friends, he had to wait a year and then finally gave up. And I can tell you most kids are gonna lie about that rather than talk about that, but he was held back. So I'm sorry, it's in the back of my mind I have. It hasn't really engaged my mind that this could be a regular practice. If I thought through it, I'd be saying, yeah, that's a problem. It wasn't until I stepped away from the church and I met with a. I told that to a fellow that my home taught. And he said, sam, why don't you come over? I think it's time that I tell you why I stopped going to church. So I went over there, we went out and sat on his deck outside, and he started to tell me a story. He said that now he had not. He has not been active since the day I was assigned to home teaching him, which was many years ago. And he had told me various reasons why he wasn't going but this time he said, sam, I think you're ready to hear the real reason I didn't go to go back to church or left the church or stopped going. He's not left the church. He's still a bleeding member. He said that his. He went back to church. He and his wife made the decision that they wanted to raise their young boys, who are now teenagers, in the youth programs.

John Dehlin [00:34:26] So he.

David [00:34:33] They went to church. And one day, one of his sons, who has a little bit of a mental disability, I mean, it's minor enough that most people wouldn't know that, but it affected some of his behaviors. Anyway, one day his son came to him and said, dad, the bishop wants to talk to him. I'm nervous about that. His dad said, I will go sit on the couch outside. It'll be perfectly fine. If you're nervous about it, you just open the door and come out and see me. A few minutes later, very quickly, the door opened. His son came rushing out, wide as a sheet, and said, this dad, the bishop just asked me if I masturbate and if I have sex with boys. Now, this man, he's the kind of dad I wish I had been. He is the kind of dad that today I want to be to my grandchildren and to the children and grandchildren of those 2,000 people that have signed the petition already. He is so. He was in Vietnam. He served behind the lines, UN uniformed, highly dangerous in the jungles of Laos and Cambodia. He came home and became a police officer. If you picture a macho man, you're not thinking about me. But if you picture a macho man, this is about as much as you can get. His son comes out and tells him that. He walks in that bishop's office, leans over the desk and says, if you ever ask my sons a question like that again, I will beat you to a pulp. That struck to my heart what he was willing to stand up to John. He made that statement to the bishop. You asked my son that again? I'm going to beat you to the pulp. I believe we need to beat this practice to a pulp. It needs to be excised from our church. Okay, So I didn't know how common this was, so I posted on Facebook, hey, has anybody been asked about. Suddenly, it was a massive landslide of how many people shared their stories. Suddenly, it is becoming obvious that this is happening all over the place. Not just 20 years ago or 30 years ago or 10 years ago or five, but right now, this is happening in our church. So then I find something out that really Makes me realize what a crappy dad I was. I asked my daughter, who was living with me at the time, she said, were you asked about masturbation? And she said, yeah, I was. This is like age 12. And I didn't know what it was, dad. So I asked my friends. They didn't know what it was. So I went home and looked it up. I googled masturbation. I challenge anybody here that likes our policy to ask kids. I challenge you. You go look up that word and look at the images. That's what my daughter was sent to from the bishop's office. That's okay. I want to forgive, but I want to be angry that this has happened to my own child behind my back. As I'm giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the church, tens of thousands of hours in service to the church, I was about as dedicated as you can get. And they're taking my daughter behind a closed door all alone with an older man that's totally untrained in all the consequences that happen without my knowledge and certainly without my consent. No, that is wrong and needs to be stopped.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] So, like, how did you feel when you knew that that had happened to your own daughter and you didn't even know it?

David [00:38:37] Well, I was angry. I was super angry. I talked to my wife about it. Well, then, now she's got the guilt of that. We weren't close enough to our kids for her to have come out of that meeting and said, hey, they asked me about this, but most kids are not going to do that. They don't know what it is, or they are too ashamed anyway. So, yeah, I was angry. And that spurred me to the action that I'm on today.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Okay. And so there's lots of different ways that you could go about trying to solve this problem. What made you decide to go the petition route?

David [00:39:22] Because I tried everything else.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] What'd you try?

David [00:39:25] Well, I talked to the bishop and the stake president over the course of two years.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] What happened? What'd they say?

David [00:39:33] They. Well, I wasn't as passionate back then as I am now, but it just didn't seem to be a big concern. But my other concerns were totally put aside. And then I voted opposed. And as I voted opposed, I've put this on my list. When I sent my list to the stake president bishop, here's what I've opposed that is right there. Our interview practices with children. Then I started writing about it. Now, the writing has done a lot of good. Now, John, I've got a dinky group of people that know who I am. But even amongst that small group, it has done wonders for them to see that there is somebody speaking up for them. So then I did all the writing and finally looking at, still nothing's happening. Fine. I'm going to start up a petition to raise awareness. The church might even do something, but it raises awareness amongst the community that this is going on and that you can stand up and say, I don't want my child interviewed alone and never about sexual issues. So. There are about 2200 people that have signed that thing. Thank you everybody that is standing up for our children. John, you told me, I asked me what my goal is And I said 10,000. And you said, oh boy, that's going to be a hard task.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] But you're 20% of the way there.

David [00:41:08] We're 22% of the way there. Next step, I'm going to Salt Lake City. My mom, my 87 year old mom and I, we're going to Temple Square. We're going to, well, close to Temple Square Square. We're going to be on the sidewalk outside of Temple Square to raise awareness, to let people know about the petition.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Now what dates? Do you know the dates and times so that people can come by and salute you and stand with you? What?

David [00:41:37] I don't want you to salute me, but stand with you.

John Dehlin [00:41:41] Honk.

David [00:41:42] Yeah, Great. Yes. Help this, the awareness of the petition and encouraging people to sign the petition. Here's something else. You know, you work with Natasha Helfer Parker. She said this at a retreat not long ago. She said that part of the healing process is being able to share your stories in a safe place. That petition, you'll find many stories on that petition in the comments where people shared their stories. That alone has helped the process, help them process through the trauma that they've gone through. Being able to tell their stories just in snippets there. Okay, so December 1st, December 2nd. I don't know what hours we're gonna be there, but I'm planning on being there like at 9 o' clock until 8 o' clock at night. My mom probably will not last quite that long.

John Dehlin [00:42:38] I don't know, She's a pretty feisty, strong woman.

David [00:42:40] Yes, that's right. Somebody said, sam, you, you know, it might be a little dangerous out there, but don't worry, your mom, mama bear is going to be there.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] What if it's super cold? What if it's snowing?

David [00:42:54] Hey, it'll just feel like Christmas. I'm gathering signatures so the Christmases of the children in our Church will be not filled with the trauma that we fill them with today.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Will you be holding big signs? We have banners. We have anything like that, or we just look like two random people on the curb.

David [00:43:19] Random people.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] You're not gonna hold a sign?

David [00:43:22] Well, I'm not planning on holding a sign up, but I have a. We will have signs that will be maybe a little bit over waist high that people can see what we're doing. And maybe we'll put that to a stick. But we're gonna have signs so people can see what we're talking about, have copies of the petition. We can hand out little cards that have the links to the petition.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] And do you want others to stand with you? Are you inviting people to come stand with you for this show of concern?

David [00:43:52] I have not invited anybody, but if anybody comes, they are welcome. We'd be delighted to have you. Here's the way it works in Salt Lake City with regards to things like this. You don't have to have a permit unless you have more than 50 people. Well, I've got a permit, but still we told them there wouldn't be more than 50 people. I don't think we'll have 50 people if we have three people.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] Where will you be? Like, do you know which corner, which side of Temple Square will you be at Pioneer Park? Where will you be?

David [00:44:27] We are going to be on South Temple. And I don't. Hey, John, I'm making this up as I go.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] Is that kind of between the mall and the church and Temple Square? Basically. Is that what South Temple is?

David [00:44:39] So right now the plan is to be on that South Temple and West Temple, Although we have put that we could be anywhere on South Temple between Main street and West Temple. But the intent right now is West Temple and South Temple. But you know, if there are more people someplace else, we might go across the street near the entrance to City Creek Mall. I'm just not familiar with the traffic patterns for pedestrians. So we'll want to locate where we have the opportunity to talk to people.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] So this is a Friday and a Saturday, right?

David [00:45:15] Correct. Uh huh.

John Dehlin [00:45:17] Okay. And what do you. What do you think is going to come from the petition or from you standing on the curb at Temple Square? What, what do you. Why are you doing this? What, what practical result do you think is going to come from it?

David [00:45:32] It's already come, John. I just want more of it. I want more of the practical results that have happened. You had mentioned on one of these other interviews that the petition, you know, who knows what the petition can do. I know what the petition not only can do, but has the petition has already manifested a wonderful work and I'm going to tell you something. Some things that petition has accomplished, but I'd like it to accompl it many fold more. The ultimate would be the church would listen and listen to its membership.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] What do you want the church. What do you want the church to stop and start doing?

The Petition's Demands and Church Response

David [00:46:13] Okay, well, here's the petition. This is what we're asking. Calling on the church to do. We call on the LDS Church to immediately cease the practice of subjecting children to questions about masturbation, orgasm, ejaculation, sexual positions or anything else of a sexual nature. This applies to all children up to and including age 17. I mentioned the orgasm and the other words there. That is not common. But I've got story after story where that was discussed. That should never be discussed. What the. What the hell?

John Dehlin [00:46:48] No, we had bishops. We had bishops asking about, you know, position, sexual positions, the extent of penetration, whether or not orgasm happened, whether or not orgasm happened multiple times.

David [00:47:03] Anal sex. What the hell? Anal?

John Dehlin [00:47:05] Yeah. Was there oral? Was there anal? Right. Was a hardcore porn, was a softcore porn. Like.

David [00:47:12] There you go.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] Yeah.

David [00:47:14] Okay. So that's number one.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Okay.

David [00:47:16] Get rid of those. Any questions with our children?

John Dehlin [00:47:19] Aren't those inappropriate to adults? Not only. Not only children, but adults too. Like should I. Let's say that there's a couple. Let's say that There's a single 30 year old or even a separated couple in their 40s and maybe they had a relationship. Are those questions fair game for adults in your mind?

David [00:47:38] John, I want to remain focused on the kids.

John Dehlin [00:47:40] Okay.

David [00:47:41] Another issue. But what we're doing, we're grooming kids to be susceptible to those questions and accept those questions when they're adults. We're grooming our kids to be susceptible to those questions when they're kids by other adults in power that happen to be pedophiles. And that has happened to our children anyway. So the adults. That's a whole other issue. I want to focus on the kids. So that's number one. We call on the LDS Church to publicly disavow this practice. Not in private, not on some leaked memo, but on out in public that look, we're not doing these things are out of bounds for our bishops. We call on the LDS Church to ensure that all congregational leaders as well as general membership are informed that this practice is prohibited. The congregational leaders, the general membership, we have no idea what the policies of the church are. Actually, I do it is. Anything's fair game. Bishops, they don't say that, but that's basically what the manuals allow, because they don't address this. They address a bunch of stuff, but they don't do the boundaries. And so the members are not aware what they are. Those are the three things we're asking the petition, the 2200 soon to be 10,000 of us are asking for.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] Yeah, if everybody listening to this podcast signs the petition, we'll have 10,000. It's as simple as that. Because these. This podcast is downloaded well over 20,000 times per episode on average.

David [00:49:15] So let me just say this.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Can people sign it anonymously if they don't want to actually put their real name?

David [00:49:21] No, I want the real name. Here's what you can do. There is a check because it's not safe for everybody to do this. Hell, what's wrong with our culture? It's not safe to say, I don't want my children asked about sexual intersexual things. Okay. It's not for some people. There's a checkbox that says, display your name publicly. It's already checked. If you uncheck that box, your name will show up as anonymous. About 40% of the signatures on there are that show up as anonymous. But behind that anonymous name anonymous thing on my side, there's a name, there's an email address. So, no, we want this to be a real legitimate petition. And, you know, some people have signed on there with that. It's obvious that they're making fun of it. And so I deleted some. Some things. But, yes, your name can show. You can protect your identity.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] Will you be releasing people's names?

David [00:50:19] I will release nobody's. First of all, everybody's names that is not anonymous is already released. You can go to the petition, click on signatures, and it all comes up. The signatures, the city, the state, the comment. And those comments are really interesting, but the ones that are anonymous. I will not release anybody's names unless I have their permission.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Joyce is asking. She's not a member any longer. Can she still sign it?

David [00:50:51] Joyce, you're making me cry here. Joyce, you're no longer a member of the church. Who is concerned about our children. Whether you're a member or resigned member. We're all concerned about our children. We should be concerned about our children. If you've never been a member of the church, you should be concerned about. About our children. Joyce, you may have friends that have children that desperately need to be protected. You may have children that have children. You may have neighbors that have children. There are 2200 people that have signed that petition that have children, nieces and nephews, grandchildren that want to be protected. So, yes, anybody can sign the petition.

John Dehlin [00:51:47] All right. If somebody were to say to you, sam, listen, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Yeah. It's a bit of an awkward question. And, yeah, you know, kids are kind of. Maybe they'll lie, or maybe they'll just feel a little bit of guilt. But in the end, this is God's way, and you're making a big deal out of nothing. And it. And it doesn't even happen all the time. What would you say to someone who tried to tell you that you're making a big deal out of something that's not a big deal?

David [00:52:17] Well, first of all, I've had people

John Dehlin [00:52:18] tell me that, okay, what do you say?

David [00:52:23] My children are a big deal to me. I don't care if it's never happened to anybody else. It's happened to my kids. My grandkids are coming up. They are going to be in the crosshairs of this practice. Now, these interviews don't have a super negative effect on everybody. There's a range. A range from it doesn't have any effect to I'm gonna lie, and it doesn't have any effect all the way to suicide. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] I just want to say that Vicki just wrote, my stepson ended his life because of this.

David [00:53:01] So I'm going to sit on the sidewalk in the shadow of Goliath, hoping that there will be a. Who said that?

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Vicki.

David [00:53:12] Hoping there will be a. Not another Vicki that has a child, that has a. Someone in their family that commits suicide. That is happening. We've had. So I've had. I mean, it's documented out there that kids have committed suicide over this very issue. There's tons of people that had. That attempted suicide. I was, you know, I do these taquerias, and I was out of town and did a taqueria out of town. And a lady came and she said, earlier today, I went to the airport with a friend of mine. My friend asked me to go. She needed company because they were going to pick up their son, her son, from the airport. He had been sent home from his mission. He'd attempted suicide on more than one occasion. This time it was almost successful. He was sent home because he couldn't deal with the shame that is associated with all of these interviews. So attempted suicide. Thinking of suicide. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they had thought about suicide over these issues anyway. So I'm making a big deal out of. Okay. I'm making a big deal out of kids that might. I'm making a big deal out of the least that Jesus Christ himself said we should look after. There's a lot of people that are not going to be affected. I'm not concerned about the most. I'm concerned about the people in the bad position, the marginalized, those on the margins, the ones that are vulnerable.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] Right.

David [00:54:44] So that's the way I'd respond.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] Vicki. Vicki, tell. I'm going to read some comments now, Sam, if that's okay. Vicki says that her stepson was 15 when it happened and that's.

David [00:54:52] Damn it.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] I do want to agree that I was a therapist at Utah State University counseling center for four or five years and there have been many, many, many Mormon youth returned missionaries, men and women that have been driven to the point of either contemplating attempting or completing suicide over sexual guilt and shame. So that's my little added testimony. I have to give a shout out to our dear, lovely friend Lynn Moore. Lynn Moore is tuning in. We love the Moore family. Lynn writes, I have regrets as a mother. I didn't know what was going on in my kids interviews. Shout out to her son Jason, my buddy, and to all the wonderful Moore's, to Bill, we love you guys. Hope you're doing well. Anything you want to say to Lynn and Bill and the Moore family?

David [00:55:51] So my transition was painful. It was lonely. But both the pain and loneliness were tamped down frequently by Bill and Lynn. I called them many times as I drove home from church. So anyway, I really appreciate those good friends of mine.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] They're good people. Love to the Morse. Okay, other comments, really quickly. Let's see. Vicki says she signed it. Evan says he signed it. Lots of people are signing it. Okay. Tui writes, love you, Sam. This is a worthwhile effort. I supported and signed it. Joyce writes, my grandchildren matter to me. Jaina writes, I'll come and stand with Birdie in December. So Jayna wants to. Actually, she doesn't want to stand with you. She wants to stand with Birdie. That's your mom, right?

David [00:56:49] I'm totally good with that.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] Lots of people aren't. Evan writes, thanks for your hard work. June asks, I'm in Australia. Can I sign it? What's the answer to June? I think I know the answer.

David [00:57:07] Everybody in the world should be loving our children and standing up for their protection.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] Becky says, of course, June. Becky says, I'm proud to show my name on the petition. Thank you for taking the reins in this issue. Lives have been destroyed by those awful interviews.

David [00:57:24] John, can I just say one thing here?

John Dehlin [00:57:26] Yeah, please.

David [00:57:27] About the anonymous. I've asked people to sign it. I've asked people to share it. Some people have to be anonymous. There should be no shame associated with. That's brave. Just to put your name on there. If you can't sign it, even anonymous. I get that. Don't feel bad about that. If you can't share the petition, that's okay, too. There should be no shame in any of that. I understand our culture.

John Dehlin [00:57:51] Derek writes, my father was my bishop and stake president for 15 years. I had the unique burden of having these conversations with my own father and having to live with the shame of my confessions each time I looked at him at home, outside of his office, at the church. Our hearts go out to you, Derek. That would be a tormenting existence. Let's see. Huntley says she and her husband just signed Ryan McKnight the Brave Ryan McKnight of Wiki Mormon Leaks. Right. Sam Young is one of the best human beings I've ever met in person. So shout out to Ryan McKnight.

David [00:58:35] So, Ryan, I've got to let everybody know. So I don't drink alcohol at this point. I still live the Mormon standards, but Ryan took me out, asked me if I'd like to go out for a drink, and I said, sure. He took me to Sherwin Williams. Boy, talk about somebody that wants to protect my standards. You can't buy any drinks at Sherwin Williams. So thank you, Ryan.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] Yeah. Shout out to Ryan. Yeah. Lots of people are signing it. Sarah, Eric, Jennifer. I think you're going to get at least a couple hundred signatures just from this live interview. Okay, so Kaylee writes, I don't believe this in the slightest, but I can see orthodox members arguing that it's the sin causing the negative outcomes, the shame, the suicides, the attempted suicide, and not the interview. How would you respond to the argument that if people are feeling shame, it's because they're doing wrong, not because they shouldn't be asked these questions?

Petition Signatures, Next Steps, and Closing Thoughts

David [00:59:35] Absolutely. They're gonna feel it's wrong. So regardless of whether you feel it's. They all feel it's wrong. Okay, now that would be a whole different interview, John, to talk about whether masturbation is a sin. I wrote an article about that called Bippity Bop about how I feel, whether or not it's a sin. But that's not the issue here. Whether or not you feel it's a Sin. Sitting there with a bishop, with a man in authority asking probing questions, it automatically puts shame on that person. And then you compound that fact with almost all the boys masturbate. Well, suddenly you're putting shame on almost everybody. So it doesn't matter whether it's a sin or not. That should not come into the bishop's office. He is not trained to deal with that anyway.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] All right, now, how many. How many interviews? How many signatures do we have at the beginning of this interview? Sam, do you remember?

David [01:00:33] I do. 22. 23.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] All right, so far we've got 2262. So that's a little bit better.

David [01:00:40] Super. Outstanding.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] Right where we need to be. All right, so, Sam, what else do you want to share? Oh, wait. So, Dan writes, as a psychiatrist, I'm very concerned with fostering sex positivity and reducing shame and stigma surrounding this fundamental aspect of our humanity. Margo writes, my hope is that this moment in the national conversation will shine an extra spotlight, making it harder for leaders and members to tell themselves that this is okay. Melvin writes, signed it, these practices must stop. Thank you for your important work. Sherry writes, elizabeth Smart has said we cannot teach our children that death is better than sexual sin, which has also caused suicide. She is amazing. Maybe one of you could talk to her. I would love to interview Elizabeth Smart if somebody could help me get in touch with her. I welcome that. Jennifer writes, sam is a wonderful man. I've watched him evolve. It's hard to watch sometimes, but I adore him. His heart is so genuine. I was asked this when I was 12. It's real. So Jennifer says, it's real. Sam, what do you say to Jennifer?

David [01:01:47] Thank you for that little bit of validation. It's absolutely real, and I feel for you, my friend.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] All right, Sam, so what are you going to do if the Church just gets sick of your complaining and decides to take action for this or for other things? Are you prepared to lose your membership if it comes to that? Are you gunning for it? Some people like to accuse me of explicitly gunning for excommunication. What do you think about that?

David [01:02:19] Well, I'm absolutely not gunning for excommunication. I've been told many times that what I'm doing, that I should be excommunicated. And I've been hearing that for three years. It has intensified over the last month with regards to this. Now, I don't want to leave the church, but I feel like if I can save one child by being excommunicated, I'm good with that if I can do good for many people, I'm good with that. Maybe a year ago, when my wife and I still weren't. Still had some issues we were working through, somebody said, you're going to be excommunicated. I asked my wife, what would you think about that? And she said this. If you were excommunicated, the church would be wrong, and you'd walk away with your integrity. This last Sunday, she told me that she fully supports what I'm doing and the church has no business. There's nothing I'm doing that would merit excommunication. I still don't see what the hell I'm doing that would merit excommunication. But if that's the case, fine. I've stood up for what I believe is a horrible practice that we need to get rid of.

John Dehlin [01:03:46] Have any leaders asked you to be silent and to stop speaking out?

David [01:03:49] Nope. I don't really hear from anybody. I sent tons of emails, but I don't hear anything. I met with my bishop this last Sunday to talk about some things. Well, actually, to talk about this. But, you know, he's. He didn't ask me to be silent. I know nobody's told me to quit doing what I'm doing.

John Dehlin [01:04:09] Why don't you organize a massive march or protest where you call on hundreds or thousands of people to come support you and get media coverage so that you can actually, you know, get this covered in the Salt Lake Tribune, Deseret News, Associated Press, maybe even Wall Street Journal.

David [01:04:28] Why don't I do that? Because I'm making it up as I go, John. It was an easy thing for me to. Actually wasn't an easy thing to create this petition. I've been writing my heart out that takes down a time. Every time. Every time I write an article, which is now every couple days, I get 200 signatures. I've only got 80 articles left to write to get to 10,000 signatures. But it's been. As I go along, what next could bring attention, awareness to what we're doing? So who knows? That might be something in the future. Right now, it's just me and my mom and Jaina and whoever else might.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] I'm gonna try and show up on Friday. I'm gonna try and show up on the first. Yeah. And I think you ought to consider inviting people to come stand with you, to bring signs and to try and make it something that the press gets aware of. So that's just my little suggestion. You can take it or leave it.

David [01:05:30] So there are people that have come forward and said, sam, this needs media attention. Until this week, I was saying that's not the direction I want to go. But after this week, just some things this week, I'm saying no. Next week there will be hundreds of children behind closed doors being asked these questions. No, let's so I, whoever was asking me, I said, yes, go for it. But I don't know how to do that. But hopefully these guys know how to do it. So there may be media attention on the first and second. I don't know. I've sent an email to the I've got two contacts in the high echelons. I've sent email saying what I'm doing and so there somebody might be aware of it. But whatever it is, mom and I will be in the shadow of Goliath.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] All right, so we're at 2273 signatures. I'm going to ask 27 of my listeners to sign this signature before Sam and I hang up. So now we're down to 26. So I'm not going to hang up with Sam Young until 26 more of my listeners sign and we get up to 2,300. How does that sound, Sam?

David [01:06:42] Well, let's see. We might lose a lot of listeners.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] Let me read a couple more comments. So Megan says she signed thank you. Suzanne said she's signing Angie says signed and grateful thanks for all you're doing. Amanda writes, here's the thing. If any human is excommunicated for defending our children's dignity and decency, then that is a telltale sign of something far worse going on in the church, which is more and more evident every day. So Amanda's saying, bring on the excommunication. If the church wants to show its cards as not being of Christ Church, Beverly's asking, if you have to be lds, Beverly, what's your answer to Beverly?

David [01:07:29] Beverly, if you care about your neighbor's children, if you care about any children, help us get rid of this policy. Yes, your signature is totally welcome, my human being friend that are concerned about our children.

John Dehlin [01:07:45] Philip writes, it's a chicken or the egg situation. As far as where the guilt comes from, do people kids feel guilty because it's wrong or because they have been taught it is wrong? I grew up outside of Utah and none of my friends were Mormon and they were not saddled with guilt. The LDS establishment functions on guilt, which is why these interviews are practiced. Philip says he signed. Joshua's asking, what's up with the life preserver? Did I jump ship? So Philip's Making fun of this beautiful orange vest that my sweet wife Margi bought me. Margi wants me to be a little bit more stylish. Phil, Philip or Joshua. That's why I'm wearing my orange vest. So don't you dare offend Margi. Mary says she signed. She's number 2277. Amy writes, it's heartbreaking that people are scarred for life over these kinds of interviews. Mental health is hurt at such young ages. Signed and supported. Thank you for what you were doing. Beverly writes, since I came late, can someone direct me to where to sign? Yes, Beverly, I just pasted the link again. In the link, Carrie says she's up to 2278. So we're getting there, Sam. We're almost there. Now we're at 2283. 17 more people need to sign this survey before we hang up.

David [01:09:11] Be merciful to everybody.

John Dehlin [01:09:15] All right, so, Sam, give us some closing thoughts as our final 17 people reach out and sign that survey. Let me ask you this, Sam. Is the church true? Yes or no?

David [01:09:29] I don't even know what you mean by that. For years, is this God's one true

John Dehlin [01:09:33] church on the earth?

David [01:09:36] And I've never known what that meant? No, I've asked that question for many years. What does it mean? The only true and living church, what does that mean? Does that mean everything else is false? I've never gotten anybody to answer that. So I put that statement aside and say, that's a meaningless statement to me, that this is the only true church. It's a meaningless statement to say this is the true church because there are so many things that are not true that we have now admitted are not true. So I don't. Those are not meaningful statements to me.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] Okay, that sounds like you dodged the answer.

David [01:10:10] Well, it's not. If you ask me a question that makes no sense, I'm going to tell you it makes no sense to me.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] Okay. Is the Book of Mormon a historical record of ancient Americans?

David [01:10:25] I will open the answer to you because it's a straightforward. It's not. Is the Book of Mormon true? What the hell does that mean? Is it true? The Book of Mormon to me is not historical. I told the stake president that two years ago, as I was. We were discussing trying to help people, but I was totally open with him. No, I believe there's ample evidence that the Book of Mormon is not historical. Now, if somebody believes it historical, I'm not going to. I don't want to convince anybody of my point of view, but that's my point. Of view. Now, is the Book of Mormon valuable? There's things I love about the Book of Mormon. There's things I love about the story of Pinocchio. It doesn't have to be historical.

John Dehlin [01:11:09] But doesn't that make Joseph Smith a fraud?

David [01:11:13] No.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] Why not? That means he kind of lied.

David [01:11:15] Okay, John, John, John.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] What?

David [01:11:18] Now we're getting off of what I am focused on.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] I'm just trying to delay to get nine more people to sign the dang survey, Sam.

David [01:11:25] Okay, so let me. Let me just read something. A friend of mine sent me this statement the other day. The only hope we have of changing this intrusive, devastating behavior is for the thunder of angry voices calling leaders to account. My voice is thundering to bring the leaders to account. 2283 are thundering voices. We need thundering voices so that somebody will listen to protect our children. Members are listening and starting to protect their children. But we need the change from the top. Thundering voices angry. I'm angry about this.

John Dehlin [01:12:12] All right, we've got seven more to go to reach 2300. Seven more signatures. Somebody said this sounds like a PBS fundraiser, like a telethon. All right, Sam, a couple more questions. Do you think Thomas S. Monson is God's one true prophet on the earth? Is that another meaningless question for you?

David [01:12:42] I recognize Thomas Monson is the president of the church. I don't believe. I don't believe that he always. I don't know if he speaks for God or not. I don't know if God tells him what to speak. But I recognize him as the president of the church. I recognize the apostles. The apostles. Do they talk with God? I have no idea. What I know is apostles and prophets have made lots of mistakes. We have now gone back the current apostles and say we condemn and disavow what our predecessors taught and practiced. Well, okay, I love that. I love that they did that. Did they get that from God? I don't know if they got it from God or not. But I sure like it that they're saying we condemn what we did in the past, our past racism. But I do not have a way to tell if they got something from God. So I'm going to use my own brain as God told us to with common consent and figure out do I support that or not? Am I willing to accept that or not? And then vote opposed or for. I don't accept. You know, they never put up.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] Keep going, keep going. We're 2299. I just wanted to show the 2300. So keep talking.

David [01:13:59] Hey, look at that. So we never put up one more to go.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] One more to go.

David [01:14:04] If masturbation is a sin, you know, a hundred years ago it wasn't a sin. They weren't asking about this. There was no preaching about masturbation for 6,000 years. There wasn't. Why don't they put that up for common consent? We've now received a revelation, just like we did with coffee. Received a revelation. And coffee is now not just a suggestion, it's now a commandment. They put that up for vote. We voted for it. Put masturbation up. They never put up these youth interviews. They should put that up for a vote. That it's proposed that we take all of your children individually behind closed doors by an older man, all alone, without your knowledge and consent, and ask them if they masturbate. Put that one up for a vote live by our common consent. I tell you, I'm voting against that. And I'm voting a big time. And almost 2,300 are now voting together against that.

John Dehlin [01:14:56] We have literally been stuck at 2299 for the past, like minute or two. We need one more signature to be able to end this tediously long interview. Somebody go sign the petition so Sam and I can go have dinner.

David [01:15:19] There it is. There it is done.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] There it is done. Let's show it. Can people see it? Can you see it? 2300.

David [01:15:27] Okay, 2300. Outstanding. We only have 7700 to go to get 10,000. So thanks for everybody who signed that thing for standing up for our children.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] That's awesome. All right, Sam, you've said a lot. Thanks to all the listeners who have stayed with us. Sam, what do you want to say in closing that you haven't already said? I have a question. Why does this matter? Why not just move on? Why not go join another church or just quit religion altogether? Some say you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone. Why are you still annoying and bugging the church? Why don't you just move on and let those who enjoy it enjoy it? And you know, you're clearly not enjoying it, so move on.

David [01:16:15] I'm enjoying it. I enjoy what I do. I like what I do.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] You enjoy being a gadfly?

David [01:16:25] No, I enjoy following my heart, doing what I believe is right. Last Sunday in church, the primary program, they. So they sung, choose the right and do what is right. Do as a right, Let the consequence follow. Be faithful and fearless in choosing the right. That's what I'm trying to do, John. Now I could leave the church. I could shut my trap up. I could cut off my hand and write not another single thing. But you know what? What would that do for my grandchildren? Somebody sent me this. We all place ourselves in danger to one degree or another when we stand up. Yeah, I'm putting myself in danger for all kinds of criticism and excommunication or whatever, but we place our children and our grandchildren in even greater danger when we don't. I'm not willing to put my children and grandchildren in the danger that I know is out there. So there's my answer. Why don't I just shut up?

John Dehlin [01:17:28] All right, Sam Young, we have reached the end of this Mormon Stories interview. We're well over the goal we set for ourselves. We're at 2308 and climbing. Let's get this to 10,000 by December 2nd. Is that an okay goal?

David [01:17:50] Okay, that's a great goal.

John Dehlin [01:17:52] All right. Let's try and make it happen. All right, Sam Young, how do people keep following what you're doing? If you guys end up doing a march or protest or even a media campaign, how do people keep following you?

David [01:18:05] First of all, I've never even thought of any of that stuff until you mentioned it right here. The furthest thing out in my plans is mom and I in the shadow of Goliath. But the to keep up. Well, my Facebook page that's totally open and I post tons of stuff there that gets me in lots of trouble. And I also have a blog called To Qubit is Invisibles Qubit. We won't talk about where that came from, but to find my blog, you Google search Invisible Qubit, and it comes right up. By the way, the petition, if you don't have a link to the petition, we now have a really good link. It's called protectldschildren.org put protectldschildren.org and that immediately brings up the petition.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] I love that. ProtectLDsChildren.org that's way better, Sam. Yeah, that's way easier than that big old long thing that she gave us before.

David [01:19:08] Well, somebody made that suggestion a week ago.

John Dehlin [01:19:11] I love it. And it looks like the petition tells us who was number 2300. It looks like it was Dean Martindale. Do you see that? Dean Martindale was 2,300. But every signature is important. Every signature matters. So thanks to everyone who signed and everyone who's going to encourage others to sign. Hey, can I. Can I be honest about something? Sam?

David [01:19:36] No. Tell me a lie, please. I like those better.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] Sam. I haven't signed your petition yet.

David [01:19:42] Well, what the heck is going on with that, John?

John Dehlin [01:19:46] I've been so busy promoting it that I haven't actually signed it. Here we go.

David [01:19:51] That's good, that's good. You can. You might want to be the number 10,000. Wait for it to get 9,999.

John Dehlin [01:19:57] No, I'm not gonna. I'm gonna. That'd make me a hypocrite. So I'm just doing it now. I'm in Salt Lake City and I'm signing it. Sam, you're just gonna have to deal with it. Love you, Sam Young. There we go. And I'm gonna go ahead and sign it publicly.

David [01:20:14] Woo hoo. All right, done.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] I'm 2309. That's my number. All right. Sam, love.

David [01:20:20] Protect the children, John.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] Sam, we love you. You're awesome, you're courageous. And will you please come back to Mormon Stories? I actually think you should start a podcast. I think you'd be a wonderful podcast host. So if my listeners agree, please, you know, please write us and let us know that you want Sam to be his own podcaster because the Open Stories foundation just might support it.

David [01:20:48] Yeah, well, who knows?

John Dehlin [01:20:51] And shout out to our friend Jamie Handis Handy, who just joined us. We're always grateful when Jamie.

David [01:20:55] Well, you know, John, as we were leading up to this, I was thinking, where is Jamie? She gave me so much comfort the first go around. Where is she? I need her.

John Dehlin [01:21:05] Yeah, Jamie, you thought she had forsaken you, but the truth is she is. She's standing by your side, Sam, along with lots of other people.

David [01:21:14] This is Jamie.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] Hi, brother, you're awesome. Thanks to everyone who's tuned in. Again, the website is Protect. Actually, wait. ProtectLDsChildren.org we love you guys. Keep up the good work and thanks for everyone who supports Mormon stories. Mormonstories.org, your donations make this type of programming possible. Keep supporting the Open Stories foundation and any cause that's worthwhile. Sam, some are asking, can they give you money? Do you want people's money?

David [01:21:49] No.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] No money.

David [01:21:50] No. None of this has anything to do with money. What I'm interested in is people standing up for our children. So rather than do money, just share the petition, share what we're trying to do if you can. If you're in a position to, you know, some people probably in a better shape position to give money than to be open about things, which is such a shame, but. No, no, I. No.

John Dehlin [01:22:15] All right, all right, everyone, thank you for joining us. You guys take care. Sam Young, you're awesome. Let's end this barbaric shaming, medieval or worse practice. Let's not have people's worth evaluateable by a bishop or a stake president. Let's end worthiness interviews. Let's train bishops if they're going to be offering pastoral care. Let's train them in the fundamentals of mental health and of psychology and of speaking about sexuality. Let's get women in the clergy. But most importantly, let's allow people's spirituality, their relationships with the divine to be between them and their creators. Let's get bishops and stake presidents no longer asking people about sexual positions and penetration and anal versus oral and all the different disgusting ways that this plays out by mostly well meaning and then some just not well, individuals. Sam Young, let's make this possible. Thanks for all your work.

David [01:23:23] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:23:24] All right, everybody, you guys take care and tune into Mormon Stories for more good stuff in the future. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.