Welcome and Introduction to Story Sharing

John Dehlin [00:00:00] The following episode was recorded as part of the January 2012 Mormon Stories Regional Conference held in Houston, Texas. To join or form a regional Mormon Stories community, or to organize a conference like this in your neck of the woods, please check out the Support communities tab@mormonstories.org and thank you for listening. Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org hello everyone.

Evan Clayson [00:00:50] We're going to be starting with the last session for today. If we could all take a seat. So the way this last session works, it's a story sharing session. It's going to be similar to like a testimony meeting and. Just one second.

Guest [00:01:20] Okay.

Evan Clayson [00:01:21] It's going to work similar to like a testimony meeting and church. The way we're going to do it is anyone who would like, who is comfortable can come up here and share their story. Just remember to keep it, try to keep it brief and concise so we have time for everyone to.

Evan Clayson [00:01:41] Who would like to be able to come up here and share their story. We are going to be doing this until the food arrives, basically. So either maybe like 4, 45 or when we get a heads up that the food's here, we're ready to eat. Okay?

An LGBT Mormon Family's Journey of Acceptance

Evan Clayson [00:01:58] So for those who don't know me. Yes, my name is Evan Clayson. I'm kind of the point of contact for the Affirmation chapter here in Houston. Affirmation is a LGBT organization directed towards individuals and their family members who are affiliated to church who, you know, deal with LGBT issues.

Evan Clayson [00:02:19] My story. I was raised in West Texas. I have nine siblings, a big Mormon family, like some of you probably have. Most who are very, very devout. I just want to say that, you know, with a family like that, I feel very blessed to have them.

Evan Clayson [00:02:37] When I came out, a lot of the responses I received from my siblings and my parents was it was a response of love, but we only support you in the decisions you make that fall in line with the church.

Evan Clayson [00:02:56] Shortly after I came out, things like Proposition 8 came about and those things were really tough on me. I felt like I didn't understand why the church was doing the things they did. And I felt like what they were doing was hurting my relationship with my family and making my family choose between me and the church.

Evan Clayson [00:03:21] That caused a lot of arguments with my family. With me and them and over Facebook and those kind of things, we would just fight all the time over things like Proposition 8. And it really cut our communication. We weren't open about the things we should have been open concerning me, my sexuality and how we needed to deal with it.

Evan Clayson [00:03:46] But I feel like with my family, over time we did become more open. And I think because we were more open, that kind of gave us all a change of heart. Not just them, but me as well. I was able to listen to them more and they were able to listen to me. And I think once we got to be more open, my family actually got to be more accepting of me.

Evan Clayson [00:04:11] There was a time, I just remember this specifically, just a short story. During the holidays one year, my family was in town, a lot of my siblings, and we were in Sunday school. And the topic in Sunday school was on the proclamation to the world. And if you're gay, that just terrifies you to be able to be sitting in a Sunday school session and talking about that. Because there's always this threat that they're going to bring on, they're going to discuss same sex marriage. And that's what happened. And I hadn't been out very long then and I would get like these, not like panic attacks, but I'd just get really nervous and I'd have to get up and leave.

Evan Clayson [00:04:53] And that's what I did during that session. I got up and left in front of my family, in front of this, in this family ward in San Angelo, Texas. And I remember just being just totally almost crying and just being just not knowing how to handle the situation. Just having to get up felt a little embarrassing to me. But as I left, my sister and her husband got up and left the Sunday school room after me. And then my brother and his wife got up and left to check on me.

Evan Clayson [00:05:28] And afterwards we, instead of going to church, we decided to go to ihop, just you know, right down the road. And it was me and my sister and her husband and their kid. And we just sat and talked about what I was feeling and how they felt about it and how they loved me unconditionally, no matter what. And that's something I'll always remember

Guest [00:05:57] and

Evan Clayson [00:05:57] I'm grateful for that. And I think her acceptance has kind of helped my other siblings be more tolerant and more loving. I want to keep this short, so I don't want to share too much, but I feel like now in 2012, over the holidays, my family, I got engaged not too long ago to a great guy named Brian. And Brian was able to come home with me to Thanksgiving, and my grandmother recently passed away in December, and he was able to attend that funeral as well. And it's just been great having my family be able to accept him now due to our openness with each other and being able to communicate and, you know, they love him, they treat him as his own, and it was just a matter of time before I feel like they were able to do that.

Evan Clayson [00:06:48] And I feel very blessed to have the family. I do. And I love them for, you know, despite how they might feel, I'm sure they still feel very conflicted about, you know, between the church and me, but I love them for being able to take the time to, you know, love me and be accepting of me and supporting me. That's all. And whoever else would like to get up and speak, now's the time.

Wrestling With Faith and Staying in the Church

Guest 2 [00:07:35] This has been a great experience. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I want to thank everyone who's put this together. I'm the guy on Facebook that doesn't say anything. I just read the comments and internalize it all and. And hopefully now some of you know who I am. You can make me be accountable. And I'm hoping that we can do what Phoenix has done. We can get some groups going where we, you know, I love to read. Hopefully we can get a book club. I love to eat. Maybe we can get some dinner clubs going. And hopefully we can have this be routine and where we can get together and associate with each other, because I think it's very powerful.

Guest 2 [00:08:12] This church is beautiful. Whoever scheduled this, I think it's wonderful. I love the stained glass windows. I love the benches. You know, there's something about me. I've been a Mormon my whole life, but I've always had a desire to get down on my knee in front of the bench and just kind of worship. I don't know what that is, but I just enjoy being here and most of all, enjoy being with all of you.

Guest 2 [00:08:34] I also wanted to thank the Prince family and the Moore family and the Nokelby family for sharing their story with us. I've been a Mormon Stories listener for a couple years now, and I just love hearing the stories. I love hearing what people go through, their trials, their triumphs, and I really enjoy it. And the openness and honesty is so refreshing.

Guest 2 [00:08:59] I've always been one of those people that have said we really need more candor in the church. I wish we had more candor in the church, in myself included. You know, when you go to church, everyone walks around like they're living this perfect life and none of us are. We all have our own trials and challenges, and I wish that there was more candor so that we could help each other and be a support for each other.

Guest 2 [00:09:23] John, Dan, you guys are amazing. What you have been doing is truly a labor of love. And I thank you both for what you've done. You've introduced me to people that I never would have met, heroes of mine. Eugene England, Terrell Givens, Michael Quinn. You know, these are people that I consider heroes of mine. And I never would have met him if it weren't for you two.

Guest 2 [00:09:51] I hesitated to get up because I feel like Lee really said what I wanted to say. I think you nailed it, man. As far as my personal belief, she did a great job. I think your talk should be given a general conference. I thought it was fantastic.

Guest 2 [00:10:06] But I do believe that there is something good that comes personally from bearing your testimony. So I hope that you guys are okay with me sharing my testimony. I'm what you call a true believing Mormon. I believe that God is real.

Guest 2 [00:10:33] I believe that he's my heavenly Father and that he loves me and that he knows who I am, where I live, what I'm going through. And I don't know how that's possible in a world of billions of people. I don't know how that works. But I believe in prayer. And when I pray, I feel like he's listening to me.

Guest 2 [00:10:50] I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the Savior of the world. And I believe that the atonement is real, that it has the power to. That through it, I'm able to be forgiven of my sins.

Guest 2 [00:11:04] But also something that I don't think we focus on enough in Mormonism is the enabling power of the atonement. I love when Elder Bednar talks about the enabling power of the atonement, the ability that we are able to accomplish things that we normally wouldn't be able to through the atonement. That's something that resonates with me. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

Guest 2 [00:11:25] I've studied the good, the bad and the ugly and Mormonism. I feel like I'm pretty well versed in church history and what's out there. And I know that Joseph Smith was a flawed individual, but I am too, and that gives me hope.

Guest 2 [00:11:39] And I think the things that Joseph Smith did and accomplished were truly amazing. I believe the Book of Mormon is scripture. I don't know where it took place. I don't know about the historicity I don't know if Nephi, Alma and Moroni are real. I hope they are. I hope when I get to the judgment bar of Christ, Moroni is there like he said he was going to be so that I can say, dude, did you really pack those plates from Guatemala to New York?

Guest 2 [00:12:07] I want to have that experience. I don't know if I will, and if I don't, that's okay. But on the way down here, I was listening to John's interview of Jana Reiss, and something that she said really resonated with me. She talked about how she talked about the second question. Is that right, John? The second question. And so the first question would be, is the Book of Mormon true? Is it historically true? Is it factual?

Guest 2 [00:12:35] And I don't know the answer to that. But the second question that Jana Reese asked, has the Book of Mormon changed you? Has it made you a better person? Has it made you want to live a better life? And absolutely my answer to that question would be yes. So I would focus more on the second question and not the first.

Guest 2 [00:12:59] I think that's pretty much all that I wanted to say. But I really enjoy being with all of you. I love doing hot yoga. I don't do it very often. I wish that I did it more. And when I have the time to do it, I really enjoy it. But after each yoga session, everyone says Namaste.

Guest 2 [00:13:18] And what I've been taught and the way I understand it is that Namaste means that I recognize the divine spark in you. And so no matter what your beliefs are or what journey you are on at this time in your life, I recognize the divine spark in each of you. So to close, I would just say namaste.

Guest 3 [00:13:50] I really wanted to get up here early just because I'm singing afterwards, and I didn't want to be all emotional, so figured I'd get it out of the way. Now

Guest 4 [00:14:00] I.

Guest 3 [00:14:02] Gosh, I really do love you guys. I'm already crying and there's no Kleenex, but that's okay. You know, when Matt and I were driving home last night from Sugar Land, we were just so filled with. It was midnight. We were just tired and thinking of how tiring today was going to be.

Guest 5 [00:14:27] Oh, yes.

Guest 3 [00:14:32] But we were just so filled with just joy. And we were able to attend the Circling the Wagons Mormon Stories conference in November. And we felt the exact same way that whole weekend. And so we were talking about it and talking about how truly magical, in a very human nature way it is to walk up to somebody, you just Met.

Guest 3 [00:14:57] And after, you know, for a minute and you talk about the weather or whatever, you get smalltak out of the way. You're like, all right, what's your story? And how after talking for like 10 minutes, you've made a deep human connection with somebody that is powerful and. And I think life enduring, and I love that.

Guest 3 [00:15:24] I don't think I've ever been able to do that. Even when I. Even as a Mormon, I don't think I can do that with. I don't say regular morms, because that's really bad. But I can't do that at church, but I can do that here. And I think that's something very special about the Mormon stories community. And, John, I hate to, like, leap a lot of praise on you because I know it makes you uncomfortable, but thank you.

Guest 3 [00:15:53] Thank you for loving people and being so willing and excited to get people to love each other and doing what you're doing, because it really has changed my life. I feel like I know what it means to love now, and I thank you for that. And I want to give time for everyone else. And I think I'll end with namaste as well. Namaste.

Guest 6 [00:16:38] Hey, Sometimes I just make myself do this to prove that I can, but I'm so uncomfortable up front. Even I teach a spin class and it's like 70 people, and I get nervous every time. But I'd like to bear my testimony. I know the church is not true.

Guest 6 [00:16:56] I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet. And that's what's good me. And I appreciate what is also good for every one of you. You know, I left the church two years ago, and I understand the struggle that anybody is going through that has done that.

Guest 6 [00:17:15] And I also, therefore appreciate the things that John and Dan and all the others have done to create that support. Because it is good to know because it's such an individual effort. It's such an individual battle. You know, when you're in the church, you look on the outside and you say, you know, if they only had the truth. You know, if they only knew. And I knew it came full circle when sitting at a Starbucks one morning over a good cup of coffee, I said the same thing. If they only had the truth.

Guest 6 [00:17:48] And that's when it made me realize that it's the diversity. There's beautiful things that were in the gospel that I still embrace in my life. The gospel did not make me a good person. I think inherently people are good, people are diverse, and I Think it's that diversity that we have to be able to recognize. And for me, that was where my faith crisis took me.

Guest 6 [00:18:10] It went from a faith crisis to an eye opening experience of acceptance. To be able to look at those around me and realize that like I look in this room today and compared to where, you know, looking out at a testimony meeting, a sacrament meeting, but, and you know, compared to award, this is like the land of misfit toys. You know, if you ever.

Guest 6 [00:18:36] It's like this is diverse as it gets and I love it and I embrace that and I just, you know, like I said, it is an individual journey. It's something that we all have to deal with and we don't know where we're going to land in this. But I appreciate the effort that everyone's going through and it's good to know that there are others that are going through that same struggle. Thanks.

Leaving the Church and Living Authentically

Guest 5 [00:19:08] Okay, so those of you who know me, or really those of you who are getting to know me, probably know that I talk a lot. I'm going to put a tamp down on that because we have interest of time here. So a lot of the details of my story I'm just going to pretty much skip. But I'm an ex Mormon, I've been out of the church for actually a number of years now.

Guest 5 [00:19:29] And basically I guess there's a few things that I want to talk about because the process of leaving, when I tell, I guess the grand conclusion of where it all brings me, it sounds depressing, it sounds kind of tragic because there were some losses and some failed relationships in the process. And I'm starting to realize that as I explain that to people that it sounds tragic and it sounds like a sob story and they're like, oh, I'm so sorry. And I mean all of us have some level of that. So it's not like mine's any worse than anybody's.

Guest 5 [00:20:02] But that's not the message I have to share. And I'm realizing it's coming across wrong because I'm so glad to be here and I'm so glad to be at this point in my life that I'm at. And I wouldn't do any. Well, I wouldn't do anything fundamentally differently. I am so glad that I've had the opportunities for growth that I've had and I'm realizing that as I explain that I want to convey that.

Guest 5 [00:20:27] So skipping the entire process of realizing my journey, that got me to a point where I felt that leaving the church was the correct decision for Myself. The thing that brings me here and that makes me so passionate about what we're doing here today is what we're doing with relationships, what we're doing with respect, respecting each other, where we're at, what we're doing with respecting the integrity of each other, and respecting that we are all at our own place in the journey. We are all doing what we feel is right. And whether you're in the church or out of the church or someplace in between or wherever you're at, we need to respect each other for that and appreciate and love each other, regardless of where we are at.

Guest 5 [00:21:03] And that's what I believe, and that's what I feel strongly about, and that's why I'm here. And part of the reason why I feel that way is because when I left the church, it put a huge strain on my family.

Guest 5 [00:21:15] Basically. My mom could not accept it. And so there were a number of years where we had an extremely strained and distant relationship. There was some relationship, but it wasn't much. They had just started to kind of warm up to me. When what happened next is my younger brother, totally independent of me on his own, started to have his own doubts, started to have his own crisis of faith, and started to question whether the church was for him as well.

Guest 5 [00:21:42] Obviously, I was a safe person for him to talk to, because I had already walked that path. And so he comes to me and he talks to me, and after a while. And my approach was very much, I want you to do what's right for you. I want you to, you know, if you go on a mission, if you do the whole thing, I will support you. I will write you letters. If you leave the church, of course, I will support that, too. I just want you to make the decision that's right for you, regardless of what.

Guest 5 [00:22:07] Regardless of any pressure from anybody else. And then we just talked, and I was just there to listen and share my thoughts and feelings as he sorted it out for himself. But I did not pressure him. That's not how my parents saw it. They saw that he had left the church after me, that we were talking, they put the two together, and they decided that if Janelle isn't content to just go her own bad direction, but if she's going to tear the rest of the family down, then she's a dangerous person. We can't associate with her anymore. So at this point, I don't have a relationship with my parents anymore.

Guest 5 [00:22:42] And that's the part where I hesitate to stand up and say that because it sounds bad. But I guess there's two points I wanted to make and there's two reasons that I wanted to come up and express and I guess bear my testimony of which is, first, the joy of living an authentic life.

Guest 5 [00:23:00] I wouldn't trade that for anything. Wherever you're at, whatever feels right and true for you, whatever's in your heart, live it openly. Be yourself. Yes, there are costs, there are sacrifices. There is no guarantee that you won't experience loss along the way. But for all that, loss sometimes is very real.

Guest 5 [00:23:19] I'm here to testify that that is a joyful life. That is where growth is, that is where happiness is. And there is so much good in the world, and there are so many good people in the world, and there's so much success, support out there to be found.

Guest 5 [00:23:32] And I don't remember which one of you said it. One of you said something about how, yes, you may lose some relationships, but you also get depth to new relationships in ways that you couldn't have imagined before you make that process. And I've absolutely found that to be true. I have connected to some people in some profound, deep ways, and the relationships that I have have grown in depth. I've been able to understand people on a deeper level because I'm living authentically, not necessarily because I left the church or, you know, you can do that wherever you're at. But if you're being who you really are and saying what you really feel.

Guest 5 [00:24:06] From where I'm from, how I feel right now, I just. I don't see any other way that I could live. And I wouldn't trade that for anything. The other thing I wanted to make a point about is, okay, so we come out, we say we have some difficult conversations. We share some things with our families that, that they. We know they're not going to be happy to hear. We know is going to cause conflicts. And it's a very difficult thing to do.

Guest 5 [00:24:33] And sometimes it goes better than others. Some of us, our families surprise us with how accepting and able to be more flexible than maybe we even knew they could be. Maybe, maybe they embrace us with open arms that we didn't even know they could do that. Maybe they come around and progress in ways that surprise and touch us. Others don't go that direction.

Guest 5 [00:24:53] But I think what we need to respect is the process that all of us have to go through to even make that leap to go there. Because whether or not your family disowns you, whether or not the strain on the relationship is permanent, whether or not they ever come around to accept you once this line has been crossed, in order to even go there, in order to even come out with who you really are, you have to have resolved it in your head that you're willing to accept a worst possible case scenario. And that's why I think every single one of us who has gone through that process, we have to respect and honor the immense sacrifice that all of us were willing to make to go there, whether or not it materialized.

Guest 5 [00:25:43] Because basically, if you, if you say if you, you have to before you open your mouth, you have no control at that point over how they will respond. Maybe they'll accept you, maybe you won't. And until you can't, you can't come out until you have steeled yourself and prepared yourself for a worst case scenario. And that is huge and that is a sacrifice. And so even those of us who have, you know, who things worked out very well for, they were prepared to make the same sacrifice as those of us who it didn't go so well for. And so that's why I think that all of us deserve, or all of us should respect and honor each other and ourselves and what we've had to go through and the amount of growth that we've had to go through to get to a point where we're able to do that, because that's a very tangible reality for all of us, no matter what ended up actually happening.

Guest 5 [00:26:38] So, and I guess just the final thing I wanted to say is just growth doesn't come without sacrifice. Growth doesn't come without pain. Growth doesn't come without breaking down the status quo and being willing to ask some really difficult questions.

Guest 5 [00:26:53] These are painful processes and to a certain degree it's supposed to be that way because it's how we grow. And even if it's incredibly painful and incredibly difficult, I guess I'm here to testify that the end result of this is growth and joy.

Guest 5 [00:27:12] And as you move forward, you get to a better place and life gets better and the world opens up and you reach a depth of experience and love and connection that just isn't possible until you, until you start on that journey. And I just appreciate all of you so much and I just love what we're doing here and really appreciate John for everything he's done and everything he's been to us. I really hope to get to know all of you much better. So thank you very much.

Personal Stories of Faith Transition and Identity

Guest 7 [00:27:48] Hi there. It occurred to me when I was sitting back there what a rare opportunity this would be for me to be able to get up and to tell a little bit about myself and what I've been through recently.

Guest 7 [00:28:03] I want to thank John for this opportunity, but, you know, it's occurred to me I probably won't have the opportunity ever again to. And, you know, let me just say at the outset, I'm just like. I really try and hold these emotions in, but for some reason my face is going to get all contorted and wet.

Guest 7 [00:28:22] So just be forewarned. But, you know, I was thinking as you were doing the interview last night, John, you were talking about what it was like to grow up in the Katy, Texas stake. And I think before that, it was even the Houston, Texas stake. I mean, there were so few stakes here, and we belonged to this corner of the stake that was very close and had really wonderful youth programs. And it was a really idyllic time and time when my faith was formed and we got to participate in a lot of great things and just seemed like it was this great time. I knew that I was going to be a faithful Mormon my entire life.

Guest 7 [00:29:12] But the big thing was that there was something different about me. And I don't want to cry about this. I just want to tell this. And it was a tough thing to deal with. But, you know, as I knew that growing up that I was different and that.

Guest 7 [00:29:42] That the attractions that I had for people of my same sex were not permitted within the church that I belonged to. But I never believed for a second that that was really who I was. And I got excited about life and, you know, staying with the church program.

Guest 7 [00:30:06] And the best times of my life were going to byu, making great friends and getting ready to go on a mission. And then I remember thinking, as I was preparing for that, that I thought, you know, it's really important that I go out with all the cards on the table. And I went to my bishop at BYU and told him what I was dealing with. And, you know, he gave me. It was really a loving experience. And he.

Guest 7 [00:30:36] It wasn't the horrible thing that I thought it was going to be. And I remember him telling me that if you will just go on this mission and. Serve and love the people, that this will be taken from you. And I believe that. And I thought, okay, I'm going to do that.

Guest 8 [00:31:02] And I.

Guest 7 [00:31:06] I went out and I served that mission. It was a great experience. I went to Costa Rica and it was the best time of my life. But I knew, too, that when I came back that nothing had changed.

Guest 7 [00:31:21] And for me, that was a personal failure. Because somehow. I hadn't Done enough to qualify for the change. And I thought, that's okay. I'm just going to keep going. And, you know, I'm at byu. Everything's great here. Got great friends. And, you know, I talked to my bishop again, and they said, heavenly Father doesn't create anybody to be homosexual. And if you will just get married, that will cure.

Guest 7 [00:32:12] Of course, that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted to have a family like the ones that I grew up with. And so I met this fantastic girl and we dated for a couple of years and had a great, great time together. And I thought, you know, I feel for her, what I think is love. I mean, this must be it.

Guest 7 [00:32:47] And so I had been counseled to that point to not have to reveal this to anybody. So she and I decided to get married, But I didn't tell her the truth about myself. But I knew, though, that once I had all that, you know, hot heterosexual sex, that that was going to change me.

Guest 7 [00:33:18] And so, you know, that's gonna be experience because I had followed the program to that point and I had never done anything and. But it didn't change me. And so time went by. You know, you kind of get busy in the church and professionally and, you know, year after year goes by, but you realize that.

Guest 7 [00:33:48] That it's not going to change. And it's a very difficult position to be in. And we had a very good marriage. We've got two children still, 113 and 1 9. Two little girls. That I love very much. But I think what happened most recently is we realized.

Guest 7 [00:34:20] I realized that I started to think, you know what, Maybe the line of belief that I've stuck to my entire life, that these inspired leaders knew what they were talking about with regards to this issue, maybe they don't know, and maybe there's other things I need to look at. And I set out to kind of prove to myself once and for all I needed to know whether the church was true or not. And that's when I started to investigate the truth claims of the church. And it was about that time that I, through some kind of search, found John and reached out to him on email.

Guest 7 [00:35:00] He and I had grown up in the same stake and had been in scouts together. And I just couldn't believe there was this person that had this connection to my past that had done a lot of this work and had all these great things that he had put on podcasts. And so he and I corresponded and talked.

Guest 7 [00:35:20] And I think that through therapy and through finally being honest with my wife about what we were dealing with. I came to realize that, to know the truth about myself, and that is that. This isn't a thing that I chose, that I don't know why I'm this way, and it doesn't really matter.

Guest 7 [00:35:47] And fortunately, my sweet wife has come to the same conclusion. And so we, for a period of years, dealt with this together, trying to just kind of figure out what we were going to do. And, you know, in the last about year and a half, we both came to realize that this was a difficult situation for the both of us, that we couldn't continue in the same way that we were.

Guest 7 [00:36:21] And she deserved to be loved fully, and I did, too, and just a bunch of other complicated things. But fortunately, she and I have decided that we don't necessarily subscribe to the same viewpoints that we did growing up and getting married in the temple and living within the traditional Mormon lifestyle.

Guest 7 [00:36:46] And she's very supportive and loving of me, thank goodness. And I wish she could have been here today. She came with me in November to the Circling the Wagons conference, and we had a transformative experience there. Just absolutely priceless, John.

Guest 7 [00:37:07] And we have now decided that we're going to separate and we will divorce, but that the relationship that we have still is valid and we're still family. And, you know, she may meet somebody again one day, and I will, too, and we'll just open up the circle of our family to include those people and to continue to take care of our children.

Guest 7 [00:37:38] And, you know, a lot of times I'm angry with the church for the position that we found ourselves in, but if I'm being honest, I still love a lot of things about it. I just don't feel like it's a place where I'm welcome right now or that they would, even with their, you know, history of defining marriage in the way that they wanted to, that they would accept us and our family. And so we're still feeling that piece of it out. But I'm grateful for a community like this and for friends that I found. I mean, who knew there were so many gay Mormons out there?

Guest 7 [00:38:32] I swear, I thought I was the only one for a long time. But there are a ton. And I think half the blogging world is gay and Mormon, but I'm grateful for a sweet wife and somebody who has loved me enough to allow us to redefine our relationship and continue forward. And I look forward to continuing kind of in that tradition and being a part of this community. And, John, I thank you again for the opportunity and that's all. Thanks.

Finding Community on the Mormon Spectrum

Guest 8 [00:39:34] Well, I don't know if I'm supposed to introduce myself, but I will. I'm Morgan Blankenship and my mom, Penny Blankenship is here with me. I guess I'm what we call the true believing Mormon. But I've come to the decision in my life that I can't always go to church. And I can't find, force myself to be somewhere where I'm being judged so harshly for some of my actions. And I can't also be judged because of my parents decisions to get a divorce two years ago.

Guest 9 [00:40:10] And

Guest 8 [00:40:13] I guess it's so nice to be in company of people that understand that you don't have to be so strict to all the rules and all the Mormonism. And it means a lot to me that there are other people out there like me and like my mom, that sometimes we just can't go to church. We can't make ourselves go where it hurts. And I guess I just want to thank y' all for being so accepting and so loving and I love being here. I guess that's it.

Guest 4 [00:41:07] My name is Debbie Perez and I guess if you were to place me on the Mormon spectrum, I'm kind of, kind of at the Dan Witherspoon edge of the Mormon spectrum. I just wanted to share a story that kind of meant something to me because it kind of tells where I am in the church and where and how I feel about the church.

Guest 4 [00:41:32] And there was a guy driving down a farm road and he saw this old farmhouse. And there was a sign in front of the farmhouse that said talking dog for sale. And he says, I gotta check this out. This is amazing. So he stopped, knocks on the door, and he says, do you really have a talking dog for sale?

Guest 4 [00:41:53] The farmer says, yeah, I do. You wanna come and see him? He's in the backyard. So he goes to the backyard and the dog's there. And the dog says, hey, how you doing? The guy says, oh my gosh, you really can talk.

Guest 4 [00:42:06] How did this happen? He says, well, I found out when I was a puppy that I could talk. So I've kind of let the CIA and the FBI know about it, the police department, and they've placed me in some very interesting situations. No one ever suspected that I could.

Guest 4 [00:42:28] That I could be a spy and report back to, to officials about what things are being said. He says, I've been to some really amazing meetings in some amazing places and I've had a great life. He says, yeah. He said, I made a lot of money. I decided to retire. A few years ago, I got married and had some puppies, and I got all kinds of awards, all kinds of.

Guest 4 [00:42:57] Of certificates, and it's just been a great life. So the guy goes back in the farmhouse. He says, oh, my gosh, your dog can talk. He says, how much do you want for that dog? And the guy, the farmer, says, $10. He says, $10 for a talking dog? Why are you selling this dog for so cheap? He says, because everything he said is a lie. None of it is true. He's a big liar.

Guest 4 [00:43:28] And I kind of thought about that, and I thought, well, I mean, the analogy is maybe a little crude, but I might not like everything that comes out of the mouth of the speaker, the talking dog, but it's still kind of an amazing miracle. It's a little mixture of absurd, divine. And that's kind of how I feel about my membership in the church is I feel like. Well, you know, I.

Guest 4 [00:44:05] It's still a talking dog. And I'm so grateful for Dan and John. Their podcasts are what keep me going every day. I look forward to them all the time. And I'm really excited to have met all of you here today and just love this camaraderie, the acceptance, the tolerance. And we, I guess we all share an experience with our talking dog. Thank you.

Guest 10 [00:44:46] Now I have to face you instead of in the piano. I like stage fright. Really, really bad. And I practiced my little song earlier this morning. I was shaking on the way here, and I was really glad to go first because then I didn't have to sit through the whole thing, just nervous.

Guest 10 [00:45:04] But I was in the car and I was shaking, and my husband's like, you just need to relax. And I'm like, I can't. I just can't relax. And he's like, you know, there's a Mormon solution for overcoming stuff. Stage fright. I was like, okay, what's that? And he's like, picture everybody in their garments.

Guest 10 [00:45:22] And I said, I'm going to use that line because this is the only time I'll be able to use that line. So I'm using that line. But luckily, I didn't face you. So none of you have been violated by my imagination.

Guest 10 [00:45:38] But I don't really want to give too much of my story, and. Except that I definitely grew up in an orthodox family in Idaho, and I always kind of had certain issues and, you know, but I did the whole real Mormon thing until just the last. I don't know, probably half of a year maybe is when I've Started really investigating things deeper with my husband. Luckily, we are really lucky. We kind of are on the same path together. And I know that that's rare and very lucky for us as a couple to kind of be going through this together. And I'm really grateful for that.

Guest 10 [00:46:24] But. But I was really glad, I guess, to find the podcast. And I didn't even know, like, I had no idea that there was like anybody out there like this at all. I think most of us who, before we find stuff like this, we kind of feel that way. But my husband actually is the one who kind of introduced me to it. And now I'm like, I do all of my house cleaning with the podcast on and it's great. And me and my husband, he'll listen to him on his lunch breaks and we'll come home and we'll talk about it. Getting these deep discussions and it's really like, I feel like our relationship has grown so much because we are discussing these really, really meaningful things.

Guest 10 [00:47:10] Whereas before it was like, you know, how was your day? Oh, somebody pooped on somebody, I'm sure. And you know, the dog tore up something else. And now it's like, we don't even talk about that. I feel like much less of a whiner about my day to day things. Maybe I'm whining more about the church now, but.

Guest 10 [00:47:28] But this kind of community has been really valuable to us. And we were on the first, I think it was the first conversation in discussing planning the Mormon Source conference here. And we were trying to come up with like, okay, what's the theme going to be? What are we going to do? And me and my husband are biggest issues, I guess with the, just kind of the faith crisis, I guess if you want to call it that, that we've been going through is not with ourselves, not with ourselves necessarily, but not with ourselves individually. It's for. With the relationships we have with our families who are really, they're very believing.

Guest 10 [00:48:16] And it's just been like heart wrenching to have to, to go through that. And so that was fresh on our minds when we were discussing the theme for the conference and we like could not come up with how we were gonna, what we were gonna call it necessarily. We had like, I think a billion different really long winded titles of our conference. I don't know who came up with this, but this was great. That was a really good way to narrow it down. But, but I'm so glad that this was kind of the theme. And I actually just yesterday dropped my mom off at the airport and came to the dinner or the pizza dinner in the interview.

Guest 10 [00:49:01] And my mom had stayed. She was here for 10 days and visiting. And she's really very orthodox. And we had to have that difficult conversation, of course, and it was really hard, but I felt like, I don't know, we stayed up a couple late nights talking about different things and trying to not get too far into it, because I didn't think she was ready to really understand what our big issues were. But at the end of the conversation, we sort of got to a place I felt that was relatively healthy, which was, you know, we have what we know for sure is right now, and what we have for sure is our families now.

Guest 10 [00:49:48] And don't waste time on sorrow or devastation or disgrace or any of those negative feelings you might feel towards your family. Who, Whether you're leaving the church and you feel those feelings towards your family in the church, or whether you're in the church feeling those feelings, families that are struggling and having doubts or even leaving the church, it's just. To me, it's like, I think even within the framework of the church beliefs, trust in God and trust in grace and hope that in the end, you know, that'll all work itself out. But what we know now is our families and our communities and that sense of love that needs to come.

Guest 10 [00:50:35] And I just really wanted to convey to her, like, please don't waste your time feeling sorrow for me. Let's value what we have now. And I feel like we got to that place. I don't know if we really got to that place, but I feel like it was the starting point. I really appreciated that. And I just want to say, like, thank you to the people who are here that are the true believing, what we call the tbm, true believing Mormons that could bring themselves to. Into this kind of an atmosphere and to listen to our stories and talk openly and internalize what's being said.

Guest 10 [00:51:11] Because this is a far cry from sacrament meeting and maybe not the most comfortable environment for everybody. But this is necessary and it's good and it's productive. And if we can continue to have that open mind and that open heart and live in the moment that we have now with our families and our loved ones that we have now, I feel like we can create, we can find a place of happiness and contentment within our journeys. And thanks to everybody who made it out here, of course, and of course, John and Dan and everyone involved in the podcast.

Guest 10 [00:51:48] They've been a lifesaver for us in so Many ways. And that's all I'm going to say because I think I'm babbling. But anyway, thank you so much, everybody. I really appreciate it.

Guest 11 [00:52:16] I wasn't sure where my name tag ended up, and I felt like when I stood up it was going to be like on my bottom or something. But nobody said anything, so I don't guess it is. My name is Penny Blankenship, and my daughter and I drove here from Longview in East Texas yesterday afternoon, and I found Mormon stories via a young woman, a young woman I had taught years ago when I was a young woman president and award. And I knew that she had left the church, but it wasn't an issue of anger or anything like that. She just had grown and decided she would rather have a God that was of love and the love in her life.

Rediscovering Mormonism Through a Loved One's Path

Guest 11 [00:52:59] And she just went a different path. And we still talk quite a bit. And she had told me she was going to be at a Mormon stories conference. You know, you hear the record scratch the needle scratching on the lp, what's that? You know? And one of my inactive friends actually thought it was where people, they said, find out the history of this stuff. And I was like, okay. And they thought that it had to do something with the history of general conferences from 1940 or something.

Guest 11 [00:53:32] So, I mean, by that time my mind was like completely messed up. So anyway, I started listening to the podcast and then I kept running the Mormon stories. Of course I listened to that. Then you listen to that, you find Mormon matters, and when you find Mormon matters, you find Mormon expressions. And it was perfect timing in my life because I left a 20 year temple marriage and nobody really knew what was going on. We lived the perfect life on the outside, but the inside was devastating.

Guest 11 [00:54:03] I finally had made the decision instead of killing myself, it was better to not be in my family and to be alive for my daughter instead of dead. I mean, I'd gotten to the point where I'd already transferred all my life insurance to her and my son. And so anyway, it's kind of embarrassing to say that, but it's nice now to have this community, to have people that I can just go online and kind of read and hear the talks and learn new words like historicity.

Guest 11 [00:54:33] Because my friends didn't go to college a lot, I left where I lived out west of the Metroplex. I left the church. I still have a membership, but when I turned 50 after that birthday in October, my temple recommend expired. And that's the first time I've not had one since 1989. So I've gone away from a family where I had several state callings for over 20 years and knew everybody in two stakes.

Guest 11 [00:54:59] I had a huge church family and my family there that aren't really members, but. But everything. I left it all. My daughter still lives with my ex and I live three hours away from her and I just left everything. And so when I landed and found y', all, that's what I have now. So it's really exciting to have the opportunity to reach out and meet new people and actually get to see your real faces. I was teasing John. I told him I felt like everybody needs a computer screen around their head because that's how you look online, you know, I was like, maybe if I put a box around your face, I'll be able to understand who you are.

Guest 11 [00:55:36] I'm a convert from 1976, back in the heyday of the Mormons. And my mom said, you will sit down and listen to the discussions like cute missionaries had on like a halter top and cut off hip huggers. And they were like, yeah, we'll teach her.

Guest 11 [00:55:52] So I kind of came screaming from, I was the hippie chick at school and it was a totally hick school, so I came all the way from that where there was one other Mormon in school. And all my friends have teased me for 30 years. Y' all already joined that old church where they got more than one wife. And I go, no, now we get more than one husband.

Guest 11 [00:56:11] So anyway, I kind of had to talk with them for quite a few years and say, you guys know me and the things you ask me are embarrassing because you know me and if I lived that way, you would know it. So that's usually how I answer and put away a lot of the misnomers about the church. And there are difficult topics and I just say, well, that's how it is, but it doesn't bother me. I'm probably still a TBM at heart, but there's nothing left of me to give right now. So I don't go to church. I tried to go back, and my first Sunday back, they found out about me being in family history for over 20 years and director and stake and all that.

Guest 11 [00:56:48] Before I left after the sacrament meeting, they're like, can you pull a shift Saturday? Like, nope, see you later. So here I am and enjoying everybody here. And I want to eat barbecue because I'm a Texan and I have to tell you, my daughter's an 8th generation Texan and her family settled Brookshire, Texas,

Guest 7 [00:57:06] which is just west of here.

Guest 11 [00:57:09] And so she has a proud heritage here. And it was kind of cool that the conference we had brought us back to the area where her ancestors came, you know, before when it was still, before it was even the Republic of Texas. Texas. So thank you for everything everybody's done. And it's kind of like they talk about the iron rod and you're supposed to hold on. I can't hold on to it. But y' all hold on to something and hold on to me. And I'm still here. Thank you.

Evan Clayson [00:57:48] Thank you everyone who was able to share. Those are all very wonderful. And next we are going to have a musical number by Erin Hill and Amanda Nokelby and with Cooper Johnson accompanying. It's going to be O Savior, Thou who wearest a Crown. Afterwards will be a closing prayer by Brian Keys and just a couple of notes. Just right after this, we have a barbecue dinner where we will be having the panel and I believe kids are welcome to that. Okay, Kids are welcome to that. And tomorrow for those who can make it downtown at Discovery Green at 10am we'll be having a little get together there. There's an address in the program if you need that. Okay.

Guest 7 [00:58:31] So are you ready?

Guest 8 [00:59:04] It.

Guest 4 [00:59:55] School

Guest 11 [00:59:58] the soldier. Sa.

Guest 9 [01:00:47] Jesus,

Guest [01:03:08] Our Father in heaven and our Mother in heaven. We are grateful today for the words that have been spoken today amongst this congregation. We are thankful for the efforts of those that organized this event and we are grateful for the, We're grateful for the honesty and love that's been shown here.

Guest [01:03:34] We hope that we can be more caring and thoughtful for those around us and that we can have a love for all mankind and we can be inclusive and, and we hope that we can somehow be a light to others that we might.

Guest [01:04:01] More exemplify goodness and wholesomeness. We do ask a blessing upon the food we partake and we, We hope those that are in suffering, a place of sadness or suffering physically or spiritually, mentally that we can reach out to those people and to help them.

Guest [01:04:35] We say these things with love and respect for all those who you have sent to us and especially for Jesus Christ. And we do so in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Closing Remarks and Credits

John Dehlin [01:04:55] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@saber-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated. Donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Guest 9 [01:05:11] Come, come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell oh, I All is well all is well.

Guest 9 [01:06:08] Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo fresh courage take Our God will never us for sake soon we'll path tale oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well.

Guest 9 [01:07:16] Sam. And should we done before our journey's through Happy day. All is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell. But if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this chorus swell oh, all is well all is well

Guest 4 [01:09:00] all

Guest 9 [01:09:00] is well all is well all is

Guest 2 [01:09:07] well

Guest 9 [01:09:11] oh, is well. All is well.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.