Welcome and Introducing Zelph on the Shelf

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's December 15, 2020, and I am over the moon excited about our guests. I've been thinking recently about kind of a 12 Days of Christmas where I spotlight 12 of my favorite kind of participants in the Mormon kind of post Mormon dialogue. And just people that are cool, that are making things happen, are doing good things. And of course, one of the first people, or perhaps the first people that I decided to reach out to were Zelf on the shelf. Hey, guys.

Tanner Gilliland [00:00:39] Hey.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:39] Hi.

Tanner Gilliland [00:00:39] We love to be two of your 12th disciple in case of Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] Welcome back to Barm's Stories.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:46] Thank you. You've had a glow up.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] What's that?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:49] You've had a glow up. We've all had a glow up.

Tanner Gilliland [00:00:51] Yeah, we have.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:00:52] You've got a nice hat.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Now, I know everyone comments that it's an MLM hat. They're like, get rid of the hat, John. It's an mlm. Thrive is not an mlm. Or at least not in my world. In my world, thrive means you can heal and grow and thrive after Mormonism if you so choose. And I can't think of two better people to talk about that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:01:13] Yeah, you got us to do it. Now we're gonna get three of our friends to tell their friends.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:16] So what's the structure of this organization? We love Thrive.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] Yeah, but no, but seriously, for those who have been under Iraq, about five years ago, if I'm right, I met Samantha and Tanner. Samantha Shelley Tanner Gilliland. I met them at Utah State University when I was getting my PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. And I thought they were so talented that in addition to whatever ambitions they had, I wanted them to enter into the progressive post Mormon discourse. And so they decided to start an amazing YouTube channel called Zelf on the Shelf. It was a blog too, probably still is. And we interviewed them five years ago. It was called. What was it called? Losing Mormon Millennials or something like that.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] And it's definitely one of the top 100 Mormon stories episodes of all time, which is saying something because there's like 1400 hours of content. But it's perhaps best known for being the tipping point or the trigger for Tyler Glenn, lead singer of Neon Trees, to begin his questions about Mormonism. And it's been viewed by literally tens of thousands, if not over 100,000 people at this point. It's definitely one of the top interviews of all time. And so we're just thrilled to have Samantha and Tanner Back to kind of update us on what they've been doing, how their life has been going to talk about Zelf on the Shelf, to talk about Samantha's coaching practice, Tanner's art, and all the other cool things that have been going on. And so without any further ado. Hey, guys.

Tanner Gilliland [00:03:03] Hey, John.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:04] Hello, John.

Tanner Gilliland [00:03:06] Hello, everybody.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:07] It's us.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] All right, so let's start with the end in mind. Where can people find Zelf on the Shelf? And how do they give money to.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:15] Will be the recommended video under this one zelfontheshelf YouTube channel.

Tanner Gilliland [00:03:19] Yeah, or zelfontheshelf.com though we're definitely pretty stuck on YouTube these days.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:25] Yeah, we're on Instagram, we're on Twitter. We're not on TikTok yet because sure, get there. Yeah, we'll. We'll get forced into it eventually.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] And how do they donate to you? I want, I want right now, I want everybody to give money to Zelf on the Shelf right now. If you don't support these creators, they won't keep creating. So I'm going to do the plug up front. How do people give you money?

Tanner Gilliland [00:03:45] Patreon.com zelfontheshelf or PayPal.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:49] Me selfontheshelf.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] Okay, all right. Yeah, do that. If. If we don't support our creators, they go away. John Larsen gone away. So many good artists and contributors can't continue without support. So 12 Days of Christmas support Zelf on the Shelf.

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:09] Thanks, John.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:10] What do you guys.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] What did I get wrong or what do you want to add to my introduction?

Samantha Shelley [00:04:14] You didn't get anything wrong.

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:15] Yeah, I know.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:16] It was perfect. Yeah, flawless.

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:17] 10 out of 10.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Okay, you're coaching. Let's talk about that. Right at the top, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:21] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] What are you doing with coaching? And how do people reach out to you?

Samantha Shelley [00:04:26] So I'm a life coach now. I followed in your footsteps and Margi's and got certified last year. I'm sorry, I'm like, struggling to know what to look at, but I'm going to look at you. Um, yeah, so I've been helping a lot of people with religious transitions, Mormonism, and I guess the. The bulk of what I do is helping people identify their limiting beliefs, their narratives they have about themselves in the world that maybe aren't serving them. And I do a lot of work at helping people figure out what they want their new beliefs to be and then how to anchor those beliefs and habits so that they become a reality.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Beautiful.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:03] That's the gist of it. And I also do A lot of validating, you know, because we all have a lot of emotions and sometimes, yeah, you just need a bit of validation,

John Dehlin [00:05:12] unconditional positive regard, all that stuff.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:14] Hell yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] How do people find your coaching practice?

Samantha Shelley [00:05:17] You can just message me on Instagram

John Dehlin [00:05:19] @thesamspo.thesamspo.t H E S A M P S O.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] You need a website. TheSAMSPO.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:27] Yeah, I used to have it, and then I just let the domain expire.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Tanner, you're doing art, right?

Tanner Gilliland [00:05:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] How do people follow your art?

Tanner Gilliland [00:05:35] Instagram at Tanner G. Underscore.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] All right.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Okay. Support these amazing people. And we have a whole interview to do. So what we're going to do is we're going to just talk. Maybe we'll have them give a brief intro for those of you who haven't seen their story yet. They'll give a brief quick background of their story and then we're going to dig into life since our last interview. We're going to cover, you know, Zelf on the Shelf. We're going to cover the apologetics garbage that's been going on these days, their love affair with Kwaku. We're going to cover. We're going to cover spirituality, mental health, you know, community, all the important things that you have to identity, all the things you have to figure out, you know, when you're leaving Mormonism. But they're doing it kind of as millennial Gen zers, and that's an important.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:34] We got a slash. Gen Z. I'm honored.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] Is that accurate or not accurate?

Samantha Shelley [00:06:39] Yeah, we like to think that we have Gen Z appeal. Sorry.

How Samantha and Tanner Came to Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Okay, so let's begin. Who's older?

Samantha Shelley [00:06:47] Tana.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:48] Gen Z.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] Okay, Tanner, give them the 1 minute, 2 minute background of your story.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:52] For those who didn't watch, like, oh, prior to.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] Yeah, yeah. The stuff we would have covered, just.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:59] I was an extremely devout Mormon and did not have a sense of life, purpose, community, identity outside of Mormonism, was extremely strict, was focused on making my calling and election. Sure. From a very young age. And so literally. No. Yeah, no, that was. I was like, I will see Jesus before I die. And anyway, so just constantly reading Mormon doctrine, talking about it with people, reading books about church leaders, and went on a mission, went to byu, Idaho, where when approached with questions about the church, I began doing a little bit more digging and ended up researching for about two years an average of like six hours a day. Anyone who's gone through a Mormon faith transition, I'm sure can relate to that. Just the. Just ravenous pouring through Podcasts and books and anything you can get your hands on to try to make sense of this new framework for your faith that you're encountering. And in my attempt to really approach these issues with faith, I wanted to be the one who could answer the questions that could say, all right, let's put these critics to rest and answer these questions so that faith can thrive. And ultimately it ended up not working out and I realized that it was not true and came crashing down. And then I met you.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] How'd you meet Sam?

Tanner Gilliland [00:08:31] Samantha and I met in college at byu, Idaho. And we did. We had the same major communications and we produced videos and things together. And then at first it was kind

John Dehlin [00:08:42] of pro church, right?

Samantha Shelley [00:08:44] We didn't really do church.

Tanner Gilliland [00:08:45] Our stuff was just like comedy, just classic comedy. Though, Samantha, you can do your spiel. You did writing, like deliberately Mormon.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:55] I did have a blog which will not be named, called Millennial Woman. It was trash in hindsight, but at the time it was fulfilling a niche which was Millennial Woman content that was. Well, we weren't edgy, but you know, we would do satire and stuff, like good natured satire about the profits and stuff. But it wouldn't be. It would be very pro lds.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] Go ahead and back up. Tell us your. Tell us your two minute.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:25] But, yeah, back up. I was born in England and I in Essex, it's a suburb of London, and I joined the RDS church when I was 16. Well, I got baptized when I was 17. I had a friend in high school who was Mormon. They introduced me and yeah, just got fully sucked in. It became my core identity.

Origin of the Zelph on the Shelf Name

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Give us the 30 seconds on how in the crud would a Brit in the new, in the. In the 20 somethings convert to Mormonism.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:58] So I'd say a lot of unhealed childhood trauma, love bombing. But. But saying love bombing feels, I don't know, like, I think it was very genuine. Like the love was, was genuine and kind of being like, I wasn't raised religious. I've heard that late teens is a good time for people to join, like religions and cults, because it's where you're kind of confronting questions for the first time. I almost feel like my lack of religious background kind of helped because I hadn't thought through things that much. So, you know, I received like vaguely Christian teachings sometimes growing up because I went to Brownies and my primary school had a vicar that would come in now and then. But yeah, so the fact that it was like a Christian church or, you know, that that sort of Helped, but yeah, Joined mormonism, went to BYU, Idaho at 18. Was extremely faithful my entire time. Became best friends with Tanner, like junior year, something like that. And, yeah, then when Tanner was going through his faith crisis and encountering all this new information, I was hearing about it through him. And so then I was having, you know, the same kind of questions come up. And so it was sort of a journey that happened on a similar timeline for us. And then we left the church

John Dehlin [00:11:22] and you guys came to Utah State for a while.

Tanner Gilliland [00:11:25] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:25] Both worked for Utah State. Yeah, we both worked for Utah State.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] Now, would you have already started Zelf on the Shelf when we did our interview?

Samantha Shelley [00:11:33] Yeah. Oh, we were.

Tanner Gilliland [00:11:34] No, no. When we did the interview, yes, but not when we met you.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:38] But it wasn't like it was Zelf on the Shelf. But we hadn't really done anything YouTube wise yet. Yeah, it was a blog.

Tanner Gilliland [00:11:44] Do you remember that you gave us that you helped us get the name.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] I don't want to take undue credit.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:49] No. Tis the season, John.

Tanner Gilliland [00:11:51] I remember being in the classroom.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] Okay, so I've always wanted to brag. I love to brag. I love to brag. But this is the story of how Zelf on the Shelf got named by the taper's mouth.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:04] Well, wait, first, I remember my first meeting with you because you were doing the support group at USU for people who are going through faith crises. And I think I went the first time without you. I think that did happen. Or I met with you. I think I met with you and you were telling me about Laci Green and how she was ex Mormon and was doing YouTube. And you were like, yeah, you should do this. And I was like, oh, that's a cool idea. So you're really like, yeah, you were our first supporter, but then.

Tanner Gilliland [00:12:30] And now we try to recruit people to do YouTube videos.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] But you guys did it.

Tanner Gilliland [00:12:37] Yeah, we did it.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:38] We did.

Tanner Gilliland [00:12:39] So, yeah, we talked about wanting to do something because we'd both been content creators and we had some stuff, some ideas, and for some reason, the story of Zelf, I just like, it was like, that's such a good name. It's just concise Z, like, and such a bizarre story that undermines all the narratives about the Book of Mormon. Just perfect. So I remember saying to you, like, I want to do something with Zelf, but I like, I can't think of the shelf.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:13:03] And you, I was like, what rhymes with Zelf? And you were like, shelf, Zelf on the Shelf. And I was like, I don't want to hear any other name.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:08] Tell me nothing.

Tanner Gilliland [00:13:10] So you can officially take credit for that.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] And it was actually after one of our group. Our group therapy sessions had ended, and we're all kind of standing around in that therapy room, and that's when it was almost. Yeah. It was almost unprofessional.

Tanner Gilliland [00:13:28] Someone's going to use that. That's going to be on episode somewhere. They'd be like, John. John de Lynn, a professed psychologist.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] Yeah. And then we did that. We did that interview of you guys, and that was a. I just want to say that was a really big deal because, Samantha, I think your blog was decently well known at the time, Right?

Samantha Shelley [00:13:48] Yeah. The ex moms on Reddit hated my blog, understandably, because it was about. Because it was just so. It was so like orthodox Mormon, you

John Dehlin [00:13:57] know, Is it apologetic a little bit or.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:00] It wasn't even apologetics. It wasn't even acknowledging issues enough to be apologetic. It was just like, it was as if the ch. Like the church helped us with our SEO, for example, like, they reached out and wanted to help our blog. So it was just so pro woman.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] Yeah. And it almost reminds me of Kwaku a tiny bit, because Kwaku converts in high school.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:20] Yeah. No, it's interesting seeing.

Tanner Gilliland [00:14:23] And then.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] Yeah. Then becomes kind of a media personality for the church a little bit.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:26] Yeah. And Al Fox as well.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:28] I definitely see myself in, well, different ways in each of them.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:33] But, yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] So what I remember, you know, my. My sister Julianne worked with Fair for many years and. And maybe still does in some capacity, but I remember her reaching out to me and just like, what's Samantha and Tanner doing? And Fair was super worried about you guys because they went wrong.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:54] They should be.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] They were worried that they're like, oh, my gosh, they're going to be coming up millennials. We don't want to lose millennials. Like, we don't want to lose our young people. And I think. I think you guys really tapped into something because you were the first millennials I interviewed. Really? Or younger kind of people.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:10] Yeah, it was kind of an open niche at the time.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:12] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:13] There wasn't. There wasn't really anyone our age doing what we were doing, at least that I was aware of.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:18] Yeah. I feel like we went into this attitude of like, yes, I am anti Mormon and I'm proud of it because I'm anti the coercion of women and children and, you know, all these things. And it didn't feel like very many people, like young people were really doing that. There were these like, intellectual podcasts, like Mormon stories and other things. But yeah, I feel like there wasn't that. Yeah, it was a growing niche at the time.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:42] So.

Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:15:44] So let's start with. Let's start the story with here what I noticed. You know, obviously a faith crisis is super intense because it's the unraveling of your identity. Your meaning, your purpose can be your spirituality, can be your morality, can be your community. Super intense family stresses. And when I interviewed you guys, I was a little bit worried that, like, is it irresponsible of me? They're young, they're. They're right in the middle of it and now they're going to be like their whole thing is going to be kind of thrust in the spotlight. Like, I worried a little bit. It's probably condescending, but I worried a little bit that like, I was putting too much on you guys or that you guys were taking on too much or whatever it was. So let's start with around the interview and let's talk about, like, what was going on for you guys and map the recording and the release of that interview with then how your separate transitions kind of follow. Does that make sense?

Samantha Shelley [00:16:46] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:16:49] because family finds out usually pretty quickly, and then old mission missionary companions and probably the missionaries that baptized you or you know, just all kids from school, like everyone, generally people find out really quickly. So. So update us. How did it go? What was that process like for you guys?

Tanner Gilliland [00:17:09] It was really hard, to be honest. That was a really, really difficult part in life because even though there were some glimmers of hope, it was real world living was so new. And because I didn't want to leave the church, I didn't want to find out that my whole life had been a lie. Which is a common misconception about anti Mormons is, you know, people will get on our stuff and say, oh, you guys are trying to find all this evidence to conform to your, you know, your previously held conclusion. And it's like, no, you don't get it. Like, I, I learned all this stuff, trying to defend it and found. And these are the holes that I found. And anyway, so it was just a, it was a really hard time. Um, I was working in advertising for a company in Logan and like, was not finding that fulfilling at all. Working in this 9 to 5 office, you know, selling stuff that people don't need. And, and I'm, you know, they're like, why? What am I doing? Like, what I. Yeah, life just seems so meaningless, so empty without God without community. Because instantly I lost a lot of community. All of my friends from practically all of my former connections just dropped me and, like, didn't want anything to do with me. And I had been living in Logan for a short time, so didn't really have an established community there either. And got to a point where I was, like, really feeling done. And thankfully you had invited us to attend a couple events. I don't know if was it thrive already at that time?

John Dehlin [00:18:53] Just retreats, Faith crisis retreats.

Tanner Gilliland [00:18:54] Yeah. And that was. That was really big as far as just feeling, like, held by the collective support of other people experiencing the same thing. Because we had met with, you know, some people here and there, but being with a bigger group of people and feeling so validated was amazing. And then also making some important connections that later, I don't know if I'm allowed to say his name. Richard.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Yeah, Richard.

Tanner Gilliland [00:19:19] Yeah. Became real good friends with him. And there was a time where I just was, like, really just wanting to die. Like, I didn't see the purpose of going forward. Didn't see anything that made me want to linger. And I remember one day, like, leaving work early and just being like, I can't. I can't do this anymore. And talked to Richard, called Richard up, and he just gave me the best talking to. And I, like, really sensed that he understood what I was feeling. And he told me, he's like, you're a creative, you're an artist, you're a maker. You got to make things. Like, what are you doing? You're not living your full potential. That's why. That's where the joy comes from. And I don't remember all the specifics, but I remembered that was a critical turning point for me and realizing that if I wanted a life worth living, it was one that I had to make and pursue actively, that I couldn't just be this passive, a consumer of a lifestyle that was fed to me by others. It was something I had to find, a truth that I had to find on my own. Do we want to, like.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Yeah, yeah. You can go back and forth, kind of follow each other's timeline a little bit.

Tanner Gilliland [00:20:34] Yeah.

Negativity, Apostasy, and the Creative Community

John Dehlin [00:20:35] How much of that, Tanner, really quickly, was any of that. Was that just the faith crisis stuff, or was it, like, also negativity that came at you because you also told your story publicly on Mormon stories? Is there any way to even tease that out?

Tanner Gilliland [00:20:52] I don't think so. I mean, we did get some negative feedback. And still to this day, do, like, I'll get people from My home state. Who, like, how dare you. Your parents ought to be. Are ashamed of you. You. Like, how could you do this to them? How could you do that? You know, that's just pretty common. And I don't know. I've always been able to because I'm. Was. Have been so just confident in my own research and in my own understanding. I've kind of taken that in stride. I'd say most of the difficulty was just the pure existential weight of it all. And so you can ease your conscience. I don't think there was any too. Too much of any, like, negative kickback from having been on Mormon stories or.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:39] Yeah, none. We. I mean, our website was already getting an amount of hate before that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:21:46] Yeah. So really, it was a blessing, but

Samantha Shelley [00:21:50] it was like, what we were going for anyway, so.

John Dehlin [00:21:52] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:52] Yeah. And I think it's been a really positive experience for sure.

Tanner Gilliland [00:21:55] Yeah. Nothing but gratitude for our experience with Mormon stories and the subsequent events and things that we attended. All been really helpful, but. Yeah. Yeah. The difficulties just of trying to rebuild a life,

John Dehlin [00:22:13] Sam. And thank you for that. Tanner. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm sorry it's so hard. I think I had a pretty good sense about some of the depression you were experiencing. I think you shared some of that with me at different points or another. I wanted to help. I feel like I tried to offer in different ways.

Tanner Gilliland [00:22:30] You've always been available for a good word and good advice and a friendly ear. So thank you.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Oh, no, no. I'm glad you made it through that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:22:39] Yeah. And. And it's good now.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Good.

Tanner Gilliland [00:22:43] We'll get to that, I suppose.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Yeah. Yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there. So, Samantha, actually, we didn't talk about how much you wanted to talk about your. Your situation at the time and what's changed. I guess your marriage. So, I mean, I don't know if you're comfortable talking about that or not or.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:59] Wait, what did you say you were

John Dehlin [00:23:00] married to Connor at the time? I just. I just totally had.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:02] Wait, you just said we didn't talk about what you wanted to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] Oh, when we were talking about what to talk cover in this episode.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] I didn't ask.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:09] I just didn't want it to come across like I was like, yes, let's please talk about my divorce, John. Yeah, let's talk about my divorce.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] I just realized I. I swear, this is awful. I love Connor and I didn't think about him until just now, but as I'm remembering back, you were married at the time.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:25] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] I'm not trying to get. Dig for dirt or anything. No, no.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:29] I mean, yeah, it was one of those situations I'm sure a lot of people can relate to, where you get married as a Mormon and, you know, as children who have. I mean, I'll just speak for myself. I had no emotional intelligence. Well, it's all relative, but, you know, no real ability to sort of manage my emotions, especially the challenging emotions that would inevitably come up because I was just sitting on a bunch of unhealed trauma, wasn't self aware, a whole host of things. And so it was, you know, we. We left the church together and, you know, we're kind of like on the path together for a while and then. And then we weren't anymore because it didn't make sense to me. And you helped me a lot with my divorce. You gave me some really good advice when we were breaking up, so thank you.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] If you had divorce advice, what would you give people?

Samantha Shelley [00:24:23] Well, what you told me, I have many things. Number one, do it. Well, the thing you said to me was just that, you know, moving on from someone like that, like breaking that intense for an attachment is. Is kind of like chemically similar to withdrawing from drugs. And I just found that really useful just as a way to conceptualize what was happening. But also my advice for divorce is. Is mindfulness and learning how to sit with your feelings and not try and run from them or.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Or be a slave to them.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:00] React to them, definitely.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:01] Yeah, you can. You can sit with your emotions without reacting to. Without being reactive. And yeah, like, the emotions pass a lot sooner if you're able to just sit with them and. But it's hard. It's really hard.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] Yeah. Well, I've always loved Tanner and Connor and I continue to love him. I haven't heard from him in a long time, but Connor, if you end up listening to this, love your brother. So was it. Was it as hard. Was it hard for you in similar ways as Tanner?

Samantha Shelley [00:25:28] Different ways, yeah, definitely. I mean, the. The depression and existential dread that Tana described is. Is what I went through too. I remember asking you for a therapist recommendation. Logan and I did one visit, and I just wasn't even in a place where. Where I could even into, like, therapy. I wasn't even there yet. I couldn't. I had such little hope that I just didn't think a therapist could even help me. Yeah. And then eventually I was forced to confront my trauma and. Yeah, I guess just my whole life and I became more self aware and I started to understand the different, the different things that had dictated a lot of my life and how I responded to situations and saw myself and the world. And it put me on this path of like refinding spirituality outside of religion and mindfulness. And that's been really good and really beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] Eckhart Tolle for the win.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:35] Eckhart Tolle changed my life. Yeah, I think he's not everybody's cup of tea, but for me, absolutely life changing. I think I would still be. I think I'd be a different person with that reading. The Power of Now and then a New Earth. So, yeah, Eckhart, if you're watching.

Tanner Gilliland [00:26:55] Now, we. We were in Logan for a minute and then we moved to Salt Lake. It was pretty, pretty quick. After leaving the church, we were like, this is just a small Mormon town. Like, we got to get out of here. We got to do something else. And so went to Salt Lake, which

Samantha Shelley [00:27:10] was a good move for us. Gave us a bit of a wider, you know, wider view of what could be.

Tanner Gilliland [00:27:16] And shortly thereafter kind of took a stop. We had done self for.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:22] Yeah, we took that year off.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] Yeah, we ask you about self really quick. So, you know, I adore makers or creators in this space. But it's like most people, most Mormons that I know who follow Mormon stories are afraid to even like a post. Like, they're afraid to friend me on Facebook. They're afraid to like any posts that I make. Right. They're afraid to even admit to their friends and family. And for good reason. Because the way that our, our culture reacts to anyone who, who leaves the path can be so violent or oppressive or you are punishing.

Tanner Gilliland [00:28:04] Rife with apostasy germs.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] Yeah. So, I mean, so that's most people. And then there's like, okay, there's this super smaller group that will like actually like share a post or like something or let anyone know that they've lost their faith or follow any of this stuff or friend me, friend me on Facebook. And then there's even a super smaller percentage that, that would ever even consider doing anything creative. Right. That would ever like write a blog post or come on an interview or. And then, and then of those who actually create something, super small group of people that would do something more than once or twice or start something and then fail or just quit. So like the. No, if you, if you want to like talk about the past 15 years, which is how long I've been doing this, the number of people that are still doing Stuff. Right. It's like me. You know, Lindsay's still doing her podcast every once in a while. Lindsay and some Park. I think if it's on Thrones, it's still kind of going. But, you know, a lot of those guys have left. John Larsen's done, like, yeah, okay, we've got some Tiktokers now and a couple YouTubers. But, like, it's really small, the number of people that can actually make it to the point of creating stuff and then endure. So talk a little bit about, like, what that was like for you guys to. To do Self on the Shelf and. And what it's been like for you guys to be creators and. And I guess I'm asking, starting from that early time period, and then as we continue with your story, we'll talk about how that's evolved. But that's the thing. I celebrate you guys in 2020 because you're creators that have stuck with it and have made a big impact and. And there are really only a few of us.

Five Years of Zelph: Evolution and Taking a Break

Samantha Shelley [00:29:56] I think the reason we're still doing it is evolution and because we've been. Well, I mean, that year that we took off is a good, like, jumping off point to talk about this. Cause I think we just got to a point where we thought, you know, our lives are moving away from Mormonism. We're finding joy in all these new things, like, our interests lie elsewhere.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] But before. Before you talk about that, what was it like to do it?

Tanner Gilliland [00:30:18] To just start.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:18] Oh, to just start to create a

John Dehlin [00:30:20] YouTube channel as millennials in a very controversial space where you're gonna get slings and arrows.

Tanner Gilliland [00:30:27] I mean, for us, I think it started as, like, pure solidarity. We just had a bunch of creative energy. Our hearts have been ripped open by this experience, and we need to do something with it, otherwise it's just gonna eat us up. And there was this community that was finding a lot of solidarity and love.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] So did you have community talk about that? You reached out.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:45] The whole of Reddit was, like, so nice to us. I mean, you gave us a shout out pretty early on, which got a lot of eyes on our stuff. But, yeah, we got so much support from people.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Ex Mormon Reddit.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:56] Did you start getting the emails of, like, people telling you their stories and.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:59] Yeah, yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:31:00] Messages.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:01] Yeah. So there was a. It was. It was a massive community. And like Tana said, I think. I mean, it's probably just like a personality thing, but if you're a sort of a. Well, everyone's creative, but there's certain types of creators where it's like you just have to be, like, putting that energy somewhere. And I think, at least for me, it was like, very healing, making content, wasn't it? Because it was like, how was it healing? You're able to verbalize all these. I think so much of what's painful about leaving a hayman religion like Mormonism is you have all these really intense feelings and no one's there to validate it because, like, you're ostracized from your community. Yeah, exactly. You're vilified for having those feelings and

John Dehlin [00:31:37] no one wants to talk about it.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:38] Yeah. Whereas we were, you know, sharing our feelings in a way that was not only, you know, we're hearing feedback from people validating that what we feel is, like, legitimate and also that they feel it too. And then we're also getting messages from people saying that our stuff is helping them, making them feel less alone.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] They give you a sense of meaning and purpose.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:59] Yeah, 100%.

Tanner Gilliland [00:32:00] Yeah. Enough to at least carry through till. I feel like I've definitely acquired that outside of. Outside of being an ex Mormon content creator.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:12] Nor do you need to find any

John Dehlin [00:32:15] Mormon stories survive.

Tanner Gilliland [00:32:18] And also, besides just, you know, the digital world being all interconnected, meeting people live, which you, more than anyone, I think, has facilitated ex Mormons coming together to share experiences. And those were really where we, I think, when we were able to actually meet people and, you know, they come up to you sobbing and saying, like, thank you so much. And you realize how much this means to people because we were lucky because we had each other. But a lot of people don't have their best friend to leave with, and they're totally isolated. And so to just be able to listen to us sit and chat and laugh and make jokes, you know, people tell us all the time, like, oh, I watch one of your videos before bed every night and just like. Like I'm with one of my. A couple of my friends and it's like, oh, to be able to get. I know what that's like. To be. To feel so alone and not even being totally alone. And so if I can just give a little bit of reprieve, some. A little bit of joy to somebody, then, yeah, let's keep doing it, you know, directing our energy toward this.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:18] And I feel like our positivity in a lot of our videos help people a lot as well, because a lot of the content in the space was, like, very serious. Because it was like, this is a very serious thing. Like, we're not just going to make light of this. You know, like your podcast, it was like, we are taking this seriously because that's, that's how you have to be. And I like fully support all of that content. But I think we really were just shooting the shit. And when I look back on our earlier stuff, I'm like, this is not good. Like, we are very articulate. We don't really know that much yet. Like, we know how to tear down the church and we could like make a joke. But I feel like a lot of what our appeal was was like our friendship and just like the, the love and the positivity there and like the banter and then the singing.

Tanner Gilliland [00:33:59] Surprisingly, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:01] But you know, sometimes it's like the people just want to feel. Sometimes I just think it's nice to be able to see these really serious things in a light hearted way and be like, here are these other people who can like make light of it. And yeah, I could see why that was appealing.

Tanner Gilliland [00:34:17] And it was like we said earlier, healing for us to be able to do that, to, you know, metaphorically alchemize our crying into laughter, like taking that heartbreak and being able to, okay, like, have a good laugh and be a source of encouragement. I think one of the reasons we've been able to do it so long is that we've never had the expectation to like. I don't know, it's always felt like if, when we feel like doing it, we'll do it.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:47] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:34:47] And when we don't, we're not gonna do it.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:49] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:34:50] And so when we stopped doing it for a year, it's just like we don't feel like doing it, so we're not gonna do it. And.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:54] Yeah. And I think that was really good for us because I think at the beginning of that year I felt I had no sense of spirituality. I didn't consider spirituality important or I just lumped it in with, you know, religion and all that stuff. But I feel like we came back because we were like, oh, we're finding this renewed sense of spirituality outside rel and we wanted to share that, but otherwise I don't. I wonder if we would have come back, you know.

Tanner Gilliland [00:35:19] Yeah, maybe. I think a lot of people after leaving the church, there is a period of adjustment where they're trying to find themselves and a lot of people do just find a life outside of Mormonism and are able to fully integrate into that and that's good for them. So cool. You, like moved on and done it. That's great. And, and we needed to do that. And then from that Place of becoming grounded in ourselves because we'd still like through all of that. Sam was kind of keeping our social media afloat during that time. So, you know, we didn't completely drop off the map, but after just receiving, people would recognize us and, you know, come up to us and just say, thank you. Thank you so much. And you get messages all the time. And we thought, yeah, we're in a. In a place now where we can offer genuine, like, hope that things get better and that life is good and, you know, without Mormonism after it. And so that was our kind of re. Entry into the space.

Wit, Intellect, and Their Creative Work

John Dehlin [00:36:23] I have to disagree on one thing. I think you guys are real intellectuals and witty and funny. And when I watch your work, like I recently watched your review of the recent Fair Mormon, you know, polygamy, Quaker kind of video, and you guys are funny and witty and talented, and you're intellectual, super smart. And I'm just like.

Tanner Gilliland [00:36:47] Just say good looking and call it a rat.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Super good looking.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:51] Yeah, we've definitely grown a lot. I mean, yeah, maybe like tiny bits of those qualities existed, but I mean, we've like grown a lot. We were so young when, you know, five years ago, just leaving a high demand religion.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] But you were intellectuals then. You were intellectual.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:07] Yeah, it's all relative, isn't it? Yeah, we. We cared about researching and reading and learning.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] So, yeah, it's always been intellectual. Yeah, I was gonna ask, and I just want to connect with you. Like, you guys joke about thrive, like there's only so long you can talk about polygamy and polyandry and peep stones and lying and deceit and faith crisis stories, and it really starts to really weigh down on you and you have to do your own work. So I think I remember the point where you guys were probably kind of burning out. You kept asking, are we too negative? Is this negative all the time? Are we more than this? And you kind of have to have a rebirth.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:48] Yeah, several rebirths.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] Yeah, yeah, rebirth. But yeah, you got to start feeling. You got to start replacing the holes and healing and growing. And then it's not just a complaining kind of a fest all the time. It. Which is all important. The anger and the processing and the negativity is actually important. You lean into it, not away from it. But at some point, you got to start growing. And so it's been fun to see you guys mature over the past couple years really quickly. Did it ever stress out your relationship as friends to be doing a creative thing together or not?

Samantha Shelley [00:38:29] I mean, not in major ways. But I think it is, you know, at one point we were roommates and doing this and best friends.

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:37] Yeah, that was a lot of fun.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:38] And it does. Yeah, it can be. Because it's like how, you know, like, right now is the first time we've had a consistent filming schedule that we both stick to. And it's because now we, like, want to do that. But we've always had this thing of like, we're not just gonna. We don't want to make stuff we don't want to make because what's the point? This is, you know, we don't want it to be about that. But yeah, like, if one person wanted to film one week and the other didn't, sometimes it's a little bit like you're not necessarily aligned in terms of content creation and then it.

Tanner Gilliland [00:39:07] And then it's a little dish out during the day.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:12] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:39:15] That's awesome. So, okay, so let's talk about, like, when you come back. Okay. One of the things that. That's most notable in your comeback, and I'm sure there's things I'm missing, but it was these, these creative videos you started doing, like, high on a mountaintop and. Well, first of all, everyone's got to go Google right now. Mormonism and me. This was Tanner's first kind of a poem. How would you. How would you describe Mormonism to me?

Tanner Gilliland [00:39:39] A poem?

John Dehlin [00:39:41] Yeah. And you did kind of a slam

Samantha Shelley [00:39:42] poem, straight up poem.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] Yeah. And at first you did kind of a raw version, and then I tried to snazz it up a bit with like audio and video camera, but it's really. It's still. It still is super powerful and meaningful. But. And I. And I don't want to short any other. Shortchange any other creative works you guys have done, but when you started doing those, you know, some of those more creative videos. You want to talk about that for a minute? Because that was pretty mind blowing.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:17] Definitely. Talk about high on a mountaintop. I just watched that again the other day and was like nearly crying.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] It's so good that came out. Did that come out of Richard's encouragement and. And other things?

Tanner Gilliland [00:40:26] No, that was a. This was a later thing.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Talk about whatever you want about that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:40:33] Just about the poetic crit making.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:40:35] Yeah. Well, you know, the first. The Mormonism in me, it's very. Just straightforward. Me just talking into a camera and a pretty like, normal tone of voice. I had never. In Mormonism, there is no space for the validity of difficult emotions like anger. Anger. Contention is of the devil. And so if you feel anger, it's something you need to keep down bottled up inside of you. And so even though I was feeling very deeply in that, it wasn't. I wasn't even able to, though I could express in words my disappointment and some of these concepts that I was dealing with. You couldn't see the emotion on my face. And so it was the process of, like, actually learning, like, what do they say? Finding your. My own voice and being able to express vocally and viscerally my feeling and not just with words. And so it was kind of. I've always been. I think most people probably are a bit insecure about their creative efforts and shy about putting it out there because I think, well, I'm not. I don't want anyone to think I'm like, taking myself too seriously here. But I just kind of have had this attitude of, like, I want to put it out there, I don't care.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] And describe the main videos you've created just so people have a sense and they can go back and look or we can slice them in or whatever.

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:03] I did the Mormonism in Me poem that was like the. The first. I think it was first, like, recorded slam type poem I had ever written. And that just kind of came spilling out in like a day, just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then a while later did another one called this Is the Place. This Must be the Place. This is the Place.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] What was that about?

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:28] That was, I think, about finding my. My ground in, like, my identity, my post Mormon identity, and realize, like, I remember walking through the avenues in Salt Lake and it was springtime and I remember seeing the mountains and just crying and just like, thinking about my pioneer ancestors who came into the valley and felt this, like, sense of solace and belonging for the first time after having, you know, flee persecution and endured great travail and starved in the, you know, crossing the plains and things. And to realize that I could integrate things for my identity from that story and that I could take that spirit and transmute it into whatever it was that I was doing. And it didn't have to be, you know, a believing member of the LDS Church to love and honor that and to feel connected with my ancestry. So, yeah, it was just. It was an expression of feeling grounded and alive and reborn. And yeah, reborn is really the message there. And it hasn't been a super popular video, but it was meaningful to me at the time.

John Dehlin [00:43:38] And describe the visuals in some of these videos.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:41] This one we had, like, set up a cardboard set to look like A general conference kind of vibe. Had an organ thing playing in the beginning, like they do for conference, and saw some flowers and things and walked up to the microphone like I was giving a talk. And the conference center.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] And did you help with this, Samantha?

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:58] No, this one. Was there any other ones we did around that time? Did the Brigham Young rap around.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:03] That was so good. The Brigham Young rap.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Talk about that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:06] I remember dope.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:07] Brigham Young.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:08] I like. Sometimes I like it like this wash of shame. And I remember. Remember we got lunch and Logan, and you're like, what would you do right now if you could do anything? And I was like, I'd be a rapper.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:18] Turner is a really good rapper, though. It's just a shame he's white.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] Did you see the Saturday Night Live skit? This is this week about rappers, white rappers.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:27] No, Check that out. I think I saw Pete what's his name on it.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] Yeah, Yeah.

Music, Poetry, and Artistic Outlets

Samantha Shelley [00:44:31] I think if you watch the Brigham, like, Tana is so good at writing rap.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:35] I know Kwaku said it was pretty bad.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:37] But the other guy said it was pretty good.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:40] Even the other guy was like, are you sure that this isn't just I'm team other guy.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:44] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:45] Yeah. So did like a Brigham Young rap. That was a lot of fun with a buddy and Joseph Smith rap as well. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] But these are cinematic, too. They have nice cameras and you're dressed up.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:54] Yeah. A little bit more fun and a little bit higher production value. And then the. The biggest one was the Hyena Mountaintop. And that was honestly kind of a creative surprise. I don't know if you've ever had the experience of, like, realizing you had undergone traumatic experience and never having registered as. Registered it as a traumatic experience.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:24] I have.

Tanner Gilliland [00:45:24] Yeah. And then all of a sudden, you're forced to confront this. And that's kind of what happened to me. I thought I had, you know, moved, healed most of my Mormon trauma and was like, you know, had found that good fitting, had footing, had been reborn, was feeling groovy. And then all of a sudden, this. This thing came up and just leveled me and was really affected my relationships. And. Yeah, I mean, when you're forced to, like, reevaluate the past, your sense of. Sense of reality is questioned because you're like, I had this whole narrative that all of a sudden I have to, like, unpack and dissect and I don't know what to believe is real anymore. And I, I. That was another song that just, like, came just screaming out of me. And it's funny. I Had a. There's a scene in the video of a gentleman washing my feet. And the day that I had recorded it with that imagery in mind, I, like, woke up, had the thing ready to go, and then saw Sam Young in Temple Square washing the feet of grooming victims of the LDS Church. And I just burst into tears and sent him, like, a demo of it. It was probably pretty bad, but I was like, it's just weird timing. And just kind of explained to him what I was envisioning for this project. And, like, you couldn't have nailed this imagery any better. And so, yeah, that was. That was one of those, like, pieces that was a little bit more artistic and a. An opportunity for me to, again, like, find voice, to. To speak the things that I hadn't been able to speak to. To scream the things that I hadn't been able to scream. And that was really powerful for me. And I'm grateful that so many people have been touched by it and have appreciated that, because it really did come from. Straight from the heart.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] Yeah. And for those of you who haven't seen these, just Google them. They're super powerful. I mean, they're art in the true sense of art. And you will feel inspired, you will feel shocked, you will feel moved, touched. This is intense art in. In all the best ways. Thanks. Yeah. So, Samantha, have you had any creative pursuits kind of analogous to these sorts of things that Tanner's done? I know that. I know that you sing and play the guitar, and you're a wonderful singer. I've always loved hearing that. Have you even tried to venture or had any projects comparable to these?

Samantha Shelley [00:48:37] Yeah, I released a song last year on streaming. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:41] There's nothing else, just all of this.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] I say it again.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:43] There's nothing else, just all of this. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:45] I listen.

Tanner Gilliland [00:48:46] That's so good. I forgot about that. A ton of listens.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:50] It was my first song. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] Samantha Shelley.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:55] Samantha Shelley. Yeah. S H E L E Y on Shelley. I have two songs in production right now, two different producers that I'm working with.

Tanner Gilliland [00:49:04] This has 22,878 listens on Spotify. First. First song. That's pretty impressive.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] It's a bottle in the show notes

Samantha Shelley [00:49:14] if you like to dance. Yeah. So that song was inspired by a lot of Rumi's poetry, which really helped me, or maybe not necessarily help me, but put into words things that. Like, concepts that I was kind of learning for the first time. It's so nice when you find a writer or someone who can, like, encapsulate that in words better than you can. So, yeah. And then music happening right now, trying to improve. We've both been on a big sort of creative awakening journey where we've had to. Because I think so much of our society is set up in a way that kind of represses people's creativity. So a lot of people will say I'm not a creative person or. I mean, growing up in England, there was this idea that unless you're really, really good at something like, let's say music, you shouldn't really put your time and attention there unless it can become profitable. And so there's all these ways that we shut ourselves down creatively and have all these stories about ourselves. And I feel like for both of us, we've had to like give ourselves permission to pursue music because there was a lot of. Well, I know for me there was like a lot of just stories about. I had about myself not being good enough to do it and it being like a waste of time. But I found that that's not true. And it's really fulfilling. Yeah. And like working on music lately has just. I don't know, it feels like the most fulfilled I ever feel is when I'm. When I'm creating and I've had to overco. Well, I'm still working to overcome a lot of like, limiting beliefs around that. But yeah, I think just having the attitude that it's great for everyone to create and to put pieces in themselves out there or don't put it out there, it doesn't matter either way. It's just what you want to do.

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:57] The process is the end in itself, I think. And creating ex Mormon content was sort of a foot in the creative door. Like, okay, we can make some things that people find valuable. We, in the beginning especially, we were like super apologetic. Anytime we'd like make music or something, you'd come with this minute long preface of we're not musicians, so don't judge.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:22] We started out like our first video on our channel was a cover of Mumford and Sons Awake My Soul. I watched it recently and I was like, this is so sweet. Like, I don't know, like we were musicians. Like, we were young and you know, the level we were. But like, I don't know, it's. There's something so sweet and innocent about it. Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:51:40] And creativity is like. It is a spiritual thing for me. Being able to transmute alchemize whatever word you want to use, just raw feeling and experience and convert that into something beautiful and not always in, like, a traditional, beautiful sense, but something that changes the way that you think or feel or perceive, and that's really powerful. And we were fortunate to have a really receptive audience that's been just extremely supportive of everything that we've done because we've branched out into some comedy stuff, into music, into art, and have felt insufficient at every point. But just keep pushing. You know, we'll text each other like, I'm screaming into a pillow. I can't believe I just published this.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:32] This is.

Tanner Gilliland [00:52:33] I'm such an idiot.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:34] Especially with, like, music or. Yeah, that stuff especially.

John Dehlin [00:52:37] People can be mean, right?

Tanner Gilliland [00:52:39] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:41] It's honestly, like, I feel like it was. We were our own worst enemies, because I don't know. Yeah. But it is true that you could get 100 positive comments and one negative, and.

Tanner Gilliland [00:52:50] Oh, yeah, I can.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:51] Those can make you spiral if they tap into something true. Like, I watched that podcast where Kwaku was, like, dissing us, and I was like, he should have just brought up my music. I would have been, like, dissed all of this. He missed a trick. I'll look forward to that in the future.

Tanner Gilliland [00:53:08] Music especially, I like. My most powerful spiritual experiences in the church were around music. We're singing in sacrament meeting and testimony meeting at efy. There's just something about it, singing with other people, and I think reclaiming that has been just a huge key for my personal spiritual mental health development. Unfortunately, with COVID it's really put a damper on all that. But we'll be back singing with people because just. I love that to this day, just getting around singing with a bunch of people, making music. There's literally nothing better for me.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] You're a great singer, and you play guitar, too. I just realized that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:53:50] Thank you.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:51] Tim has way better guitar than me. He's a lot better than actual guitarist.

Monetizing Zelph and Supporting the Show

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Okay, so I'm gonna ask you about monetizing Zelf on the Shelf really quickly, because I want it to be kind of a public service announcement. Donate to Zelf on the Shelf right now. Go to venmo.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:11] Go to PayPal if you want to. You don't have to be into this

John Dehlin [00:54:16] because we need to support and we

Samantha Shelley [00:54:17] do everything

John Dehlin [00:54:21] but have can. Have you even tried? Did you ever try and do Zelfa full time?

Tanner Gilliland [00:54:27] Doing it now, baby.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:28] Yeah. Tanner is.

Tanner Gilliland [00:54:30] I mean, between Zelf and Art. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] And it's able to bring in enough to kind of.

Tanner Gilliland [00:54:35] Yeah. I mean, to get by. That's great.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:37] Tanner's very frugal. He's good at

John Dehlin [00:54:42] so through, like, YouTube. YouTube revenue.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:46] It's YouTube. And Patreon is really. I mean, we'd love to grow our Patreon a lot more, but, yeah, Patreon is, like, really important to us.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] Okay, so right now you have to work, and you're being supported by the. By the revenue? Is that it?

Tanner Gilliland [00:55:00] I'm not just a parasite.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:04] We have, like, different sort of lives that, you know, different ways of living. So I like to have a 401k, an air fryer.

Tanner Gilliland [00:55:17] I had another job I was doing. I was working at a restaurant because it was like, make me a great delicious. If you're in Salt Lake, go to Zest. Best vegan food in town. Though the raw topia we just had

John Dehlin [00:55:28] was Zest is great.

Tanner Gilliland [00:55:30] I was working there just as a way to supplement and make sure that, you know, at least all my bases were covered, that I could for sure pay rent and then give me the creative freedom, because that's the thing. Like, I was working in an office, and I'd look out this window and see these. The most beautiful, majestic mountains I'd ever seen in my whole life. The ones that my ancestors crossed the plains in the snow eating leather strips to get to these mountains. And I'm just, like, dying in this office thinking, like, why aren't I out in nature? This is so absurd. Why aren't I making something? Why aren't I doing projects with friends? Why aren't I creating like this? It's so stifling. And I wanted just time to lend my creative efforts and to be in nature, which is another really important facet of my sense of identity and purpose and, like, wholesome, integrated, healthy living is my relationship with nature. And anyway, because of COVID I lost the restaurant job and couldn't get obsessed. Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah. They had to let me go and couldn't get unemployment, so would sit on the phone for hours and with, you know, whatever department that is. And, yeah, I couldn't get any money. And finally I thought, like, this is a waste of time. I'm just gonna go balls to the wall and see if I can. I had sold a few paintings here and there.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] Your paintings are great.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:00] He's been amazing for ages.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] How do people buy your paintings?

Tanner Gilliland [00:57:03] Instagram.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:04] Instagram.

Tanner Gilliland [00:57:05] I do commissions and sell prints.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] His paintings are super cool, and they're all about, like, nature, Mother Nature, anatomy, sexuality, life. Great stuff, spirituality, nature, right?

Samantha Shelley [00:57:19] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:57:19] Yeah, totally. Sam's always been my. My biggest supporter in art. I don't think I would be doing it if it hadn't been for your encouragement. And she has most of my early

Samantha Shelley [00:57:29] paintings just Tana's artwork everywhere.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] That's actually a great Christmas gift. Gilliland Tanner. Gilliland print of his art.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:39] We also have Zelf on the shelf shirts that has a logo that Tanner designed out.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] We're being too commercial.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:45] We should mention our logo redesign because that's kind of a fun. Like part of our rebirth, we used to have the Zelf, the white Lamanite skull with the feathers that we did in a rainbow flag as an homage to, you know, LGBTQ stuff. And then what else was part of that logo? That was basically that. And then we would get comments sometimes about how using sort of a Native American esque hairdressers potentially could be considered cultural appropriation. And Tanner designed this really beautiful. I think it's a perfect play on it where it's still the skull, but it's got flowers growing out of it, which I just think is so such a lovely symbology of rebirth and turning something weird and hard into something lovely.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] I love it.

Tanner Gilliland [00:58:28] And you can have that on a T shirt.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:29] And that can be yours.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] Order now. 1999. And if you order, you get a Ginsu knife. Okay, so let's. If it's okay, let me. I'm going to just talk to you about. Okay. When people go through a faith crisis, there are several domains that get eviscerated. And what we're going to do now is we're going to kind of transition to the healing and growth part of this episode. You just clapped your hands, Samantha. Why'd you clap your hands?

Samantha Shelley [00:58:59] Sorry, I was just excited. I was like, we're on Team Healing and Growth. Team Healing and Growth.

Finding Community After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:59:03] All right, so we'll come back to Zelf in a bit, but now we're going to talk about if you're going through a faith crisis, if you've been through one, if things aren't going like you want them to, or if you're in the middle of rebirth and regrowth and you're looking for tips and tricks or other perspectives or even empathy. What we're going to do now is I'm going to just list a bunch of domains, and Samantha and Tanner are going to just talk about how they struggled in the domain and then how they to how they filled the hole to whatever extent they've been able to. Is that all right? And the first one that comes to my mind is community. And I just remembered that we started Cache Valley Oasis together.

Tanner Gilliland [00:59:45] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:46] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] As an Attempt. It's sort of like, oh, my gosh, we always went to church on Sunday. We've got to still meet with a bunch of people on Sunday in a big room and sing and have be spoken to. And so anyway, that didn't totally work out, but community first. So each of you take a turn. Talk about how you struggle with community and then how you found it. If you did.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:13] It was a struggle.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:15] I feel like you'll have more to say on this than me. Do you want to start?

Tanner Gilliland [01:00:18] Sure. And maybe it is part of that is like being in a Mormon. Like having grown up Mormon where like your ward members are your extended family. And always having that to depend on, being in and out of ward members homes and things. And losing that, as we've said, is just devastating. Absolutely devastating. And, you know, we'd try to meet up with anyone we could who was out of the church, you know, posting on Reddit or on some app somewhere like, hey, any ex Mormons in Cache Valley and Salt Lake? Like, just looking for anybody. And cast a pretty wide net in our very wide.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:59] In that first year, Tanner would just invite anyone over.

Tanner Gilliland [01:01:02] We had a couple.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:04] No, don't even go there.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] No, no.

Tanner Gilliland [01:01:05] Just interesting encounters with people.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] We've had a few of those, Margi and I. Our kids are looking at us weird. Who are these people?

Tanner Gilliland [01:01:16] Accidental dates with old men who I didn't know were interested in me sexually.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:20] He's come so far.

Tanner Gilliland [01:01:22] Nice. Cut that out, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So then I think a big.

Oasis and the Challenges of Post-Mormon Community

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Let me just ask. So we did start Oasis, and Oasis kind of sputtered. Talk about, you know, it didn't work for anybody in the end. But why? What you learned about. About sort of that impulse to meet on a Sunday with a bunch of people and hear talks and be sung to and sing. Right?

Tanner Gilliland [01:01:51] Yeah. We definitely wanted to recapture the Mormon feel because again, most of us had been dragged, kicking and screaming by our own conscience, out of the church. It wasn't directly. I haven't thought of that line in five years, but we wanted to reimagine the Mormon experience. You know, what if we all got together and we were learning something, but not instead of learning from the scriptures, like TED Talks. Yeah, TED Talks. And we got secular music. That's also inspiring. And John's the karaoke guy. We're karaoke after this, you know, so, yeah, we wanted to do that, but I. I think ultimately, like, most of us didn't want to, like, show up on Sunday.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:37] I think we just got so into hiking, we Would just hike every Sunday.

Tanner Gilliland [01:02:40] I was like, go like sit in the building.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] Why?

Tanner Gilliland [01:02:43] Like why exactly.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:44] I never really related to that because I didn't grow up Mormon. And also I grew up in a tiny family, only child, single parent, two cousins. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't feel that impulse to seek out like a Mormon esque community. It makes complete sense why people who grow up more than would. Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:02:59] And I get it. I've been to the UU and I'm like, oh, it's great. This is so cool that it's here for people who are looking and want that sort of thing. Or like I went to Sunday assembly as well and I was like, that was cool. Just not really for me. I guess I just don't.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Sleeping in and brunch.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:15] Yeah, brunch. Yeah. That's a big part of spirituality.

Tanner Gilliland [01:03:18] Yeah, I guess it really was just a matter of acclimation. I feel like I was used to this sort of lifestyle, this kind of ritual, and then I didn't have it and felt like I needed to just have the same thing again, just tweaked. But in reality I just want. I needed to do whatever was like naturally felt good for me. And, and so like I said, being in, in nature definitely took a higher priority than sitting with a bunch of people and hearing a talk. As another key thing in Richard Tripp, again back to save the day, one day invited me to this thing called ecstatic Dance. And he's like, oh, it's great. It's just these hippies get together and dance and I show up to this. Just down the street here there's an old Mormon stake center, I believe a stake center or chapel that has been converted into a Hare Krishna temple. And you go into the cultural hall and there's big murals of Vishnu and Krishna and you know, all the deities and things, big statues and it smells of incense and they got mood light lighting and it's just people just dancing. The only rules are no shoes and no talking, no camera. So it's not like, you know, I don't really like bars that much to be honest. I drink here and there, but I don't really love being in a bar. It's just not really my vibe.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:41] Edgy.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] I know

Samantha Shelley [01:04:44] this guy.

Tanner Gilliland [01:04:47] Too mainstream for me.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:49] Not really into the bar scene, but

Tanner Gilliland [01:04:52] just to be able to like, I've always been just a goofy dancer and being in a place where you could just like freely express and move and get in the flow of your own body with a bunch of other people. Who are doing the same thing. And no one's judging. No one's talking to you. No one's coming up to you. No one's. No one cares what you're doing. You can just do whatever you want. And to have that freedom. I walked in and I was like, this is what I've been looking for my whole life. And they do that, like, twice a week. And despite not.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] You still do.

Tanner Gilliland [01:05:15] Not during COVID Pre Covid. Oh, okay. And I still do this. My roommates and I will get together and dance like this. And it's a pretty ecstatic. Dance is a pretty big part of the alternate community, alternative community here in Salt Lake, as well as others. But that for me was like, yeah, rather like, nothing needs to be said to have, like, a beautiful experience with people, because it really is ecstatic. You dance long enough, and you build this energy, and everyone's smiling and laughing, and I don't know, there's something really cathartic about it. There are certain types of therapy, just movement therapy, where you're. You're making your subconscious conscious through movement and able to process things. And I'll find myself just weeping as I'm dancing. And so that was kind of an inlet into a different community. That was one that was meaningful to me. The interesting thing is because you're not, like, talking. I wasn't meeting a lot of people, but at least I was saying, like, okay, there's weird people out there who are doing cool stuff that has nothing to do with Mormonism. And that was really inspiring to me because it was like, oh, people like me. As a Mormon, I often wondered, where are the people like me, like, who really just, like, who believe it the way that I do it, and it's really real to them. And, you know, and I found that they're not in Mormonism. They're out doing other things. And I just had to get there. So, yeah, ecstatic dance was a big part. Getting involved in art and putting stuff out there and thereafter, like, meeting up with other artists. I live in an art collective now, so it's just a bunch of creative people. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it's been a blessing during COVID because, you know, we haven't been able to be out as much and mingling with people, but having a group of people at home who are excited about making things and doing things and has been. Been really great. I attended a song. I went traveling with a friend to Hawaii, like, two years ago and heard about the singing festival. Like, I said, I'm Just nuts for singing and went to this festival and ended up being like a literal dream. Like, I just cried for three days straight, thinking, this is the best thing I have ever experienced.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] And we're just sitting around and singing again.

Tanner Gilliland [01:07:42] Just singing in the woods. Yeah. And there was a point where I met a. I was sitting in this little tent area and there was a guy there about my age. And we start talking. He had been a Jehovah Witness and he, you know, we talked about like, oh, when we'd see the Jehovah Witnesses on the street as Mormon missionaries, would be like, oh, we're going to beat you. And he'd be like, ah, we did the same thing. And we just hugged and like cried and just said like, I'm so glad that you made it out of that. And just like spiritual cousins or whatever our family religious tree is. And then thereafter being like, okay, well, this is something. A way to experience meaningful community through song circle. And so that was just kind of ramping up, right. As Covid hit of organizing events where people could just come together and sing and play music and had some really wonderful things. Our house also has been a community garden space. People interested in permaculture, which if you're not super into that, it's like basically just trying to cultivate food in a way that works with the land rather than against it. Planting things that are more native to areas that you live in, more natural techniques. Come to find out, I was just a big hippie all along and should have seen that in the Mormon church, but never really saw that until I left. And so experiencing all that stuff and that community, some political activism as well. Part of the effort to clean up Salt Lake air and to put some pressure on legislators who are making decisions that are polluting our air even more. So that's all been part of finding that community. And as I always say to people is like, Mormonism is nice because it's this like McDonald's religion where you can just show up and you know what you're getting. And everyone gets kind of the same thing, same ingredients, all just kind of mixed around and not very good for you. And the true work and joy of life after a high demand religion. And part of finding that community is doing the things that you personally resonate with that personally light you up and excite you. And naturally finding community around that, rather than like, let's just rebuild in the same way that this thing is going on. It's like, well, what actually makes me excited is it hiking, is it music? Is it gardening? Is it model trains? Is it butterfly collecting? What is it? And then finding the people who are interested in that, like, that is so fun and so meaningful. And, yeah, it's been just the best joy since being out of the church.

John Dehlin [01:10:38] Nice. So you feel like your community needs. Do you feel more fulfilled from a community perspective now? Less.

Tanner Gilliland [01:10:45] Oh, absolutely. Way more. Like, not even a comparison. Okay. Because in Mormonism, you know, you're with all these different people with varied interests, and there is something cool about that. Like, that, you know, I can be hanging with an engineer and a doctor and a bus driver and a school teacher, and we all come together because we share this belief and cultural identity, but in some ways, it's pretty forced. And everyone is kind of, you know, they make the commitment to lend all their time and talents and energies to the church, but I feel like most people are only living this, like, small fraction of what they're actually capable of offering if they were allowed to explore themselves and to create from a place of authenticity rather than, like, how does this. How does this support the narrative of the church? How does this make the church look good? How do I make the church look good? Like, stop worrying about that and just feel. Do what makes you feel good. Then you find your life just blossoming and living, water flowing through you. To borrow a scriptural metaphor. That's what it feels like. Like, it's like knowing who you are, like your true self. That's what the essence of spirituality is. That's the essence of mysticism. That's what the. The prophets and the gurus and all the spiritual teachers from all time, any of the ones that. That were worth anything, knew that. That the encounter with the transcendent, however you want to frame that as God, as a universe or just you. The highest imagination of your version of life, that has to be done on an individual level. You can't take that from somebody else. It's something you have to do alone. And so, yeah, so being able to meet and make with people who are doing that of their own free will, of their own individuality, and my authentic individual expression, meeting them in that place is so refreshing because it's like, no one told us to be here. We're doing it because we love it. And that is so much more energizing. You're not gonna. I'm like, how many times did you fall asleep during the Mormon Temple? How many times did you fall asleep in sacrament meeting? You're just like. You're just, you know, you're punching in the time clock and trying to gather what gems you can from this meager offering and hoping that your offering counts and that you're setting a good example and that the Lord will count it to you for righteousness instead of just feeling fully enlivened by experience. And so that's what I feel like I enjoy these days.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] That's a clip. I'm going to cut that out. Samantha, how about you? Community? I have all the sense that maybe you're a little bit more of an introvert.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:30] I am definitely an introvert. I mean, I think there's a couple of things I could say. First of all, I think just making my relationships more intentional has been so big. So I'm not. I don't. I mean, I like hanging out in big groups of people, too. I'm not, you know, a hermit, but it's massively improved my life, being able to. Well, it's hard to connect with people authentically if you aren't connected authentically with yourself. And, like, repressing certain emotions and trying to fit your life into this little box saps. You have a lot of energy and joy that you could be experiencing, like Tana said. And so becoming more conscious about, like, what meaningful relationships involve and what authentic connection involves has been huge. Helping me feel like I have this village supporting me, and I feel like that's an ongoing thing. I think our society does make it difficult to, like, build a village, but

John Dehlin [01:14:30] at least just friends, basically.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:32] Yeah, friends, my boyfriend. You know, I've connected with my family a lot more since healing, so I just feel like all the relationships in my life, the quality of them is just, like, massively been amped up. Yeah. So I'll say that. And then I think. I mean, I'm kind of, like, peripherally involved in the communities you're involved in, but there's, like, local stuff I'll do. And then I think just, like, causes that. That you care about are a big source of community, even if it's sort of virtual. So, like, veganism is something that's important to me. And I feel like I have this, like, little online community of people who I only really know through, like, sustainability, Instagram, but who I have, like, a genuine friendship with. And so that's been cool. Yeah, I'm not really sure. I mean, obviously doing Zelf has been cool. That's kind of a community that we've built. That's been nice.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] So in terms of your community needs being met, are you feeling.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:29] Yeah, I think. I mean, it's been a weird year I think it's been a great. It's been a good year in the sense of. I feel like I have connected better with, you know, like, my family and certain friends and stuff because the situation has kind of forced us all to. I. Before COVID I started going to the Buddhist temple in Salt Lake and I really liked that. I. I really jived with that. I love meditation, I love Buddhism. So that's something I could see myself going to more, but, you know, probably not on like a regular basis or like a weekly basis. I mean. Yeah, my answer was a bit sad compared to your, like, joy slam poem that you busted out.

Tanner Gilliland [01:16:14] Different strokes, different folks. Because again, like, it's doing what you feel authentic. Like, what is authentic to you?

Samantha Shelley [01:16:21] Yeah, yeah. I think a big thing I'm really focused on right now is just learning how open do I want to be. I think connection can be hard for me. Like, I have various social anxieties that make it challenging. And so learning to accept myself more and love myself just exactly as I am has been really important. And I think sometimes I shy away from community in certain ways because I don't want to feel this pressure to like, be an extrovert or like, be even like living in America, there's sort of this expectation to like, be very smiley and friendly and like, pumped up all the time, and it's just not really me. So I'm trying to find that balance between, like, letting people know that I'm friendly and I like them and I want to connect but then not like putting on a false Persona. So that's an ongoing journey. Yeah. And sapping myself. I do get drained very easily, so.

Tanner Gilliland [01:17:18] And you're very good at. You're very good at cultivating one on one relationships. I, coming from a big family in a big community, I feel sometimes like I can only deal with people in batch. I struggle one on one often.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:30] Yeah, I definitely prefer one on one. Like, that's why I love life coaching because I just love getting to sit down and ask people questions about themselves and like, find out like, the. The deepest things about people in a way, you know, like their hopes, their fears, their dreams. Like, I love all that stuff. I love getting right to the depth of people. And so sometimes it's hard to do the small talk stuff, which is, I think why I didn't wasn't ever going to be Relief Society president. I didn't have the pizzazz.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] The extroversion do release society. Presidents have jazz hands. Is that.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:01] I think so, John? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:05] Okay, good. That's that's one down. So next topic is. I'm going to call it. I'll call it word of wisdom. And you guys can choose what you want to talk about there. The big bucket is what we used to call morality, which I'm sure has a whole new spin on meaning now.

Navigating Sexuality and Relationships After Mormonism

Tanner Gilliland [01:18:24] Yeah, now it's not just necking and petting.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:28] It's

John Dehlin [01:18:30] you guys go right to sex. But I mean, like, morality, is that like judging people? Is that like excluding people? Like, morality becomes a way bigger question than like, did someone touch you? Where. And you know, did you try a tea? You know what I mean? But anyway. But yes, there's sort of like two buckets. There's kind of word of wisdom stuff and live chastity stuff and which is sex, sexuality. So let's start with word of wisdom stuff. And because I. Because I, you know, I'm still like, really? I've done nothing. You know, I'm still like. But, but what do you guys want to share about anything you've learned about that kind of stuff? And you can. And Samantha, we'll go to you first and then Tanner. But is there anything you want to share about that?

Psychedelics, the Word of Wisdom, and Personal Exploration

Samantha Shelley [01:19:14] Yeah, you guys can listen to our recent Mormons of Mushrooms podcast episode if you're interested in our kind of journey with entheogens psychedelics. But yeah, I think huge in post Mormonism and oh yeah, for good reason. Yeah, it's really having a moment right now, which is exciting.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] Anything you guys want to say about the value of psychedelics? Not necessarily your particular experiences or non experiences?

Samantha Shelley [01:19:41] Well, I mean, I can just repeat what I said on the Mums of Mushroom podcast, which is, I think psychedelics helped me or introduced me to the concept of reparenting before I knew what that was like from a therapeutic standpoint. So forced me to confront these traumatic early experiences and be the loving adult to this child that had gone through this, that was deeply traumatized by it, that was incredibly powerful, helped me develop more self awareness, more compassion, a stronger connection to nature, a stronger connection to my ancestors. Yeah. And do you want to piggyback off of that? I don't want to move.

John Dehlin [01:20:24] Sure.

Tanner Gilliland [01:20:27] Yeah, I guess we can. I didn't know we were going to go.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:30] We just do a spark notes version if we want.

Tanner Gilliland [01:20:33] Yeah. Psychedelics were honestly the catalyst for my psychological healing. And part of that was through the Native American church. I wanted a way to experience it, like within a legal framework so I wouldn't get in any trouble. Ultimately, I'm not Native American and really Respect that history, that culture. And even if I'm not an active participant, and I'm really grateful for that influence, for me, it helped me reframe my sense of self. Because before I was a spirit being son of heavenly parents that love me and have a place built in heaven for me that I'll go when I die and I'll be with my family forever. And when I lost that, I was just like, well, who am I and why does it matter? I'm just like a blip on a. Not even a blip on a map, a flash pan in a flash in the pan of existence and ultimately the world is going to die and there's the heat. The universe is going to die and it's all going to be for nothing. This is all pointless and stupid. Yeah, totally, totally. And I had been listening to, I don't know what came first, Alan Watts or the psychedelics, but definitely both helped me build a new intellectual framework for how I perceive myself in the world. Because when you really get down to who you are, you find that it's impossible to nail down. There is no center soul of you that exists in this timeless state. You're just, you're a process more than you are a being. You know, you're an intersection of a million billion creative vectors. The air you breathe, your genetic code, your blood, your, the water you drink. You know, you're all these social flows, family system. Yeah. All these flowing information and energy that happens to be currently encapsulated in me. And I am the part of this process that is aware of a process happening. And the psychedelic experience strips away from you. All these, all your senses of identity as a, an ex Mormon, A Mormon,

John Dehlin [01:22:56] a

Tanner Gilliland [01:22:58] Tanner Gilliland, a man, a 30 year old, a guitar player. You know, all these things start to recede and you find yourself in a place of just pure consciousness and realizing that consciousness is something that is. If there's anything that's all existing and eternal, it's just that present moment and that you are all of that present moment intersecting in your body. And that sounds a bit woo woo and a bit abstract and hard to wrap your head around, but. And that's how I, you know, when I hear stuff like that, I'd be like, wow, that's doesn't mean anything to me. But then experiencing it was transformative because now when I'm looking at you, I'm not just looking at this, this totally isolated thing that's completely different than me, that has nothing to do with my existence. I see you as an extension of myself, an extension of the greater self, of everything that is. I don't know if I'm spinning my wheels.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] Makes you more connected.

Tanner Gilliland [01:24:06] Yeah, in like, in a. In a deeply profound. Yeah, a deeply profound way.

John Dehlin [01:24:15] Makes us kind of family, a little

Tanner Gilliland [01:24:17] bit family, you know, when what is. It doesn't matter. Yeah. So, you know, being in nature feels like being. Being home, being. Experiencing yourself. It's hard. Hard to explain. Psychedelics felt like entering the. The holy of holies and walking up to the. To the mercy seat and ripping open the veil and finding yourself there and having this great, hilarious laugh that it took you that long to find it and to be able to embrace and see yourself in all your perfection and flaws and love it with just the most profound universal sense of love that you can imagine. And it, for me, was the experience I had been looking for in Mormonism that I had been waiting for that at One Mint with God. That's what it is. It was that one meant experience where all things became one. And my life has been totally different since. And like I said, it's been the catalyst for the true spiritual work because they can give, you know, psychedelics can give you a vision, but they don't do the work for you. The work comes from integrating those lessons and the insights that it's given you. That's when I started taking meditation really seriously, because I said, okay, well, this has shown me how my mind is working and how I'm getting hung up in all these ways. This is what I need to do. Not out of a sense of obligation or religious ritual that I need to do it or else, but because I want to. Because I want to be present for this moment and I want to train my mind to be able to. To sit and to experience fully. Yeah, sorry. I feel like I've just been rambling.

John Dehlin [01:26:11] It's a passion. Anything else you want to add to that, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [01:26:18] I've lost it.

Tanner Gilliland [01:26:19] I'll just say as a disclaimer, because I think it is important in this realm of things to mention that psychedelics are something that really should be taken seriously. I think when I first got into them, I was pretty researched and very careful and pretty methodical as well, so didn't have any horrific experiences or anything. But for someone who doesn't quite understand what they're getting into, it can be a really, really jarring experience. People with a family history of psychosis should not under any circumstances use psychedelics. Even things like cannabis, marijuana, be really careful with that because it can trigger some really scary things. You really want to make sure you're doing it in a place that's safe with people who know what they're doing. Really, we're living in a really incredible time where there are certain psychedelic substances that can be taken in the presence of a clinician. So you can do ketamine and you can do that with a counselor, with a therapist. And so that is. That's usually my advice to people, is like, if you want to get into this, do it the, like, the legitimate way. You'll. You'll have less paranoia about it and you'll be with someone who can help you understand and integrate the experience.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] And there's a great book called how to Change youe Mind by Michael Pollan that is a great introduction into these sorts of experiences.

Tanner Gilliland [01:27:44] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:27:47] So not leaving the word of wisdom thing quite yet there, the big fear instilled in me and all Mormons everywhere is that if you experiment with drugs or alcohol, you become a drug addict and an alcoholic and you wreck your life. Samantha, what, what are your. What are your observations about those fears and, and the reality that you've experienced since.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:11] Well, as far as I know, I mean, with any drug or alcohol, like, addiction isn't. You don't become an addict by taking something. Once you. It's like addiction is. What do they say? It's more about a lack of connection or it's about unhealed pain. It's. So instead of asking people like, you know, why the drug, ask why the pain? Because if for someone to become an addict is generally something they're trying to numb out from. And obviously, like with drugs there's a whole spectrum. You know, there are drugs that are chemically addictive, that probably shouldn't touch and that are harmful. And then there are antheogenic substances that can be so life enhancing and mind expanding and healing. So I. I think it's just all about being well researched and like Tanner said, like being kind of methodical sometimes and all the time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] Is there a healthy place for those sorts of things from your perspective?

Samantha Shelley [01:29:14] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] Drugs and alcohol?

Samantha Shelley [01:29:15] Yeah, I think so. I mean, not just drugs. Blanket. You know, I'm not into heroin or cocaine. Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:29:23] I mean, even those things have like some medicinal. Like there is a place for. Yeah, right. Like, yeah. And I'm opiates. I'm not like team narcotics, but team Adderall.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:36] Gotta get through the day prescription.

Tanner Gilliland [01:29:40] And the true spirit of the word of wisdom as originally given was a rule in moderation, not in abstinence. And so the idea was that all these things can have a place. You just don't want them to have the only place. And so like with alcohol, if you know, within a. Well connected. And there are people with genetic predispositions toward certain things. And so, yeah, it's like, be careful, you know yourself and. And don't get into anything that you feel like might be too much for you, though. I found that, that the. There's a lot of fear in Mormonism about this, obviously. And that once, you know, because I had that fear, I thought, you know, like, every Mormon is like, I have an addictive personality.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:29] Because it's like, no, you're just desperate for dopamine. You're not allowed to do anything fun.

Tanner Gilliland [01:30:33] So all you can do is eat sugar.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:35] Seriously.

Tanner Gilliland [01:30:37] And, and moving through that and realizing, like, with alcohol, it's like, I could. I could take it or leave it, to be honest. It's good. I have a lot of fun with it and it can really, like, nicen up an evening, but it's. I don't need it to, like, be happy. And sometimes it, like, makes me not happy. Like, I. I prefer to just have like a. A clear head. And so, I don't know, it's. I think adults should be able to make these decisions for themselves and explore and find the things that work for them. And as far as, like, psychedelics, a term that a lot of people use for me is plant medicine, because it's really medicinal and finding out the medicines that best work with you and that elicit the best, most healing and positive behaviors and thought structures for you, like, find that out for yourself.

John Dehlin [01:31:39] Yeah. Okay. Sex, sexuality. What have you guys learned? Having. Having left the church and. And been experimenting in your 20s and maybe early 30s, what have you guys learned?

Tanner Gilliland [01:31:54] Nothing. Like kwaku. I am a virgin and I'm a virgin.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:59] Everyone should read Come as yous Are by Emily Nagowski. If they haven't. Have you heard of that book?

John Dehlin [01:32:03] Yeah, yeah. What are some takeaways?

Samantha Shelley [01:32:05] Brilliant book. Also the Erotic Mind. I can't remember the author. I know there's a lot, like, with sexuality, I think not just Mormons, but people are just sort of taught that sex is just something that they'll do and it'll. I don't think it's. There's enough awareness around, like, how much there is to learn, like, with anything. Like, if you want to eat good food, you need to learn how to cook or do you know what I mean? Like, everything in life, if you want to be like good at it or. Or not even good, because I'm not talking about being good at sex. Yeah. Like, if you want. With anything in life generally. Yeah. To have the best experiences with something, you want to learn from people who have put work into understanding how to do that, you know? Yeah. So, like, eroticism is like a whole subject and. And sex and that. There is just so much to learn, and it. Our society hasn't typically had that much awareness around it. So. Yeah, I'm grateful for, like, books like that that can really. Yeah, they help a lot.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] So you're saying good as you.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:07] Yeah. Honestly read books. Yeah, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:33:12] It's amazing how little reading we do for something that's such a. Like an important part of the human experience. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:20] I'm such a big book fan because I feel like you can't replace the kind of deep learning that you get to do with books. Like, you can, like, read articles or I guess podcasts can be pretty deep learning too. But I don't know, there's something about books that I just think is amazing because you get that sort of reflection time and you're choosing the pace and you can stop and start. Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:33:40] I think the biggest thing for me with exploring sexuality is letting go of judgments. Of course, the Mormon paradigm is to be extremely judgmental about all things sex and very controlling. And every, you know, tempting thought you get is from the devil literally trying to destroy you. And you're a wicked sinner if you think about this or that or do this or that. And to just, like, all that drop and just to observe yourself and what makes you feel good has been really, really cool. And again, a source of, like, my sense of spirituality because it's a way to connect deeply with yourself and with another person in a way that is, like, extremely biologically, psychologically powerful. And using that power intentionally just because you don't have to, like, you don't have to subscribe to the traditional models of, like, religious monogamy in order to find great spiritual fulfillment in sex and relationships and to. To do things intentionally. And so I don't know. It's been a lot of fun. Fun too. Just fun. Doesn't. It doesn't have to all be, like, so spiritual or whatever, because it is. Just feels good. I. I don't know. Is there anything, like, specific.

John Dehlin [01:35:04] Has your sexual identities. Do you guys talk about that at all? Has it changed since leaving the church at all? Do you guys talk about that or not or.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:11] Well, when you say sexual identity, I mean, I yeah. How could someone's sexual identity not change? Like, not looking at sexual identity is just like the gender of the people you want to have sex with. But any of that, you know, like, we each do have a sexual identity identity and like a unique, like eroticism is so unique to every person. So we all. It's like this whole landscape that we all have within us that is like, so unexplored in a lot of people. And like Tana said, like, judgment really stifles that.

Tanner Gilliland [01:35:42] And yeah, I identify as pansexual.

John Dehlin [01:35:48] What does that mean?

Tanner Gilliland [01:35:49] Just open to people regardless of gender or gender norms.

John Dehlin [01:35:54] Hearts, not parts. I've heard it.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] Summarized as.

Tanner Gilliland [01:35:57] Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Because I do, when I, when I take away the judgments that I have and can just say, like, I'm just like, attracted to that person. I enjoy doing things with that person instead of, like, what am I supposed to feel about this feeling for that person? And when I'm honest, I see that it happens quite a bit for a wide variety of people. Not like a majority of people because we all have our preferences and this or that, but. But for different types of people, I should say.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] Have you guys talked about non monogamy on your show at all?

Tanner Gilliland [01:36:34] We have talked a bit about it. We even talked about it on Sean McCraney's show. I identify as polyamorous. I guess I'm just your classic ex Mormon. Ex Mormon hippie.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] What does that mean to you?

Tanner Gilliland [01:36:48] To me, it just means that I respect the sovereignty of. Of individuals that I don't pretend to. I don't lay any claim on a person's sexuality. I. That's not something I want to ask of anyone that you're not, like, have

John Dehlin [01:37:07] this contract, exclusive contract.

Tanner Gilliland [01:37:10] Yeah, that, like, if someone, if someone ultimately feels authentically driven towards somebody else, who am I to, like, cling to, to them wanting? I don't know, it's. I want to give them the freedom to pursue that which makes them the most happy. And I find that with allowing freedom, it allows love to blossom and flourish in a way that can. Not to say that monogamy can't work, because it does, but it allows. It allows things to not feel coercive and to feel like, oh, yeah, when I, When I'm allowed to be free, then I don't. I don't want to be out and about. I want to be with, you know, this. This person. And if I do want to be out and about, then that's. That's okay. Because I still have this person and they still have me. And like, I'm not a chewed gum for having sex with somebody else. There are of course like ethics involved in that and that you should have careful consideration for how you tread on the hearts of other people. But I just don't, I don't really buy the like strict monogamy paradigm that our whole culture seems to operate under. Not to say that I couldn't end up in a monogamous relationship, like it's totally possible. But, but on, on principle, I always want it understood that like I, if I'm with a partner and you want someone that's not me, you are allowed to seek that. I'm not going to put inhibitions or prohibitions on what you are allowed to do and the freedom and happiness and self fulfillment that you're allowed to seek for yourself. Had a church do that to me for 25 years and I'm not about to do it to somebody else. And again, not to, not to knock monogamy or anything like that. That's just how, how I feel.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:08] I think.

John Dehlin [01:39:09] Oh please.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:10] I was just gonna say like beyond the question of monogamy versus polyamory, like I think they're both equally valid choices. I think different personality types and will be drawn to each. But I think the most important thing is just each being committed to empowering the other's autonomy and empowering the other as individuals rather than, you know, making the relationship more important than the people in it. You know, we put people in these roles and then like living, fitting into those boxes becomes more important than like the ever evolving nature of human beings. Yeah. So I think, I don't know for anyone sort of wrestling with that. I think it's almost not as much about monogamy versus polyamory as it is how committed are you to your own personal evolution and to empowering the people that you're in relationships with, romantic or otherwise.

Tanner Gilliland [01:40:04] I love that. I love that a relationship can be seen as a individuals and a relationship itself can be seen as a living organism that can grow and wax and wane and can adapt to circumstances that you don't have to fit every person into this pre prescribed role. You're either my sexual partner or my platonic friend that I'm only allowed to see and engage with in these sorts of, of ways. I like to be able to connect with people in whatever, whatever capacity makes sense that is mutually edifying and empowering. Because sometimes it doesn't. Like you don't. Yeah. Not every relationship is the Same. And I think ultimately comes down to that. It's how are you? How are you standing on your own two feet? How are you offering that space to somebody else and empowering them to do the same?

John Dehlin [01:40:59] This is just a one off. Do either of you see yourselves getting married and having kids in kind of the traditional kind of American slash, you know, lifestyle kind of thing? Mormon? Ish,

Samantha Shelley [01:41:16] Maybe. Yeah, I think I'll. I mean, I'm from England and I've been dating someone who's American for three years. So if I ever want to live in England, that's the thing, you know, they're like, I. I don't really feel interested in marriage as a concept. I don't know just for the sake of it, but it is like a part of immigration. So that's kind of where I could see myself getting married and then kids. I've always, from when I was a really young kid, been interested in adoption and fostering. I feel like I knew from a really young age that I didn't want to have my own kids. But I. The time that I was Mormon was the only time where I was like, no, I'm gonna have to do it. Like, I'm gonna have to suck it up. But I've never wanted to have my own kids. I don't think so. I mean, it's a possibility, but it's hard to know like, what it, what it would take to, you know, because it's such a. It's a lifelong commitment and it. I'm 28, but it feels, it feels quite far off. Yeah. To say the least.

Tanner Gilliland [01:42:15] I'm not really interested in, in traditional marriage or traditional family. It's possible. Never say never. I couldn't have predicted how my life would be five years ago. And don't pretend to know how it will be in 5 more or 10 more or 50 more. I don't think I want kids. That's just where I am now. I could see myself having. There's something cool about, like, about like, not the, like legal process of getting married to someone though. Never say never on that either because, like, maybe there's some sort of like, economic utility or some practical reason to do that. But what really, like, the only thing that excites me about marriage is the idea of having a really big party, like doing really celebrating your love and bringing in all that collective magic, your community, the people who are close to you coming together to communally sanctify a relationship. I think that's really beautiful.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:20] Yeah, me too.

Tanner Gilliland [01:43:21] And I could see myself Doing something like that eventually.

Mental Health, Anxiety, and Depression

John Dehlin [01:43:28] Next topic, mental health, anxiety and depression. A lot of people just have that as part of their templates. And then going through a faith crisis can be the impetus to a lot of situational depression. Situational anxiety. I get the sense that both of you have had bouts of either or both of those. Any tips for anxiety or depression that you want to give people?

Samantha Shelley [01:43:57] It's a big topic, but I think.

John Dehlin [01:44:01] Or resources.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:02] Oh, I have so many recommendations. I think that healing is so important for so many people, and our society doesn't have a way for people to grieve. And so some, you know, trauma just gets repressed, and then it. You have all these maladaptive behaviors that you continue acting out throughout your life. So I think for me, I really identified in the past as, like, I have depression and I have anxiety. You know, like, gave myself. Well, didn't give myself. Like, therapists gave me these labels, and I. I took them on. But I think what I found is that, you know, I needed a lot of healing. And I think, like, anxiety and depression are like normal human states to go through at times. I think the biggest thing is learning how to sit with your feelings, because we're not taught how to do that. We're not given even that language as children, and we're taught to sort of, again, fit ourselves into these boxes. And. And it's been a really long journey for me figuring out how to first even just identify how I feel. Because so many times will. You'll ask someone how they feel, and they say, well, I feel like, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they'll tell you the story that they have about how they feel. But the root of it is, like, I feel sad, like I'm in pain. And I think people need to honor that pain more. And there's obviously so many ways you can do that. I made a video recently on journaling. Journaling is a really big thing for me with mental health. Meditation has been huge. Tara Brock is a therapist and a Buddhist teacher who I love. She's helped me so much. Her book, True Refuge, changed my life. There's so much to it. Do you have anything you want to jump in and say?

Tanner Gilliland [01:45:44] Yeah, I think the beginning of my, like, Buddhist is like, one of the things that I draw from. I'm not just like, just a Buddhist. But I'd say my intro to that was through one of your events, both with meeting Noah Rashetta, secular Buddhism, as well as learning from you about acceptance, commitment, therapy, which was pretty radical for me, of learning to just Accept witness and honor the things that you're experiencing. Like Sam said, our culture is not set up to make us thrive. It's. It's set up for the opposite. So that we keep thinking that we can buy our way out of it and consume our way out of it and popularize ourselves out of it.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:32] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:46:32] Pray our way out of it. Totally. Totally. I was so much more depressed as a Mormon. And so you have to. You have to be able to step out of that mentality and witness your own feelings without. Without judgment. Because the judgment comes in an unexpected way sometimes. Sometimes we expect to be able to feel good all the time, and that's not reality. You're not gonna be 10 out of 10 every day. You're not gonna be a 10 out of 10 most days.

John Dehlin [01:47:03] It's actually counterproductive to want that.

Tanner Gilliland [01:47:04] Totally. And it is makes it worse. That was my problem as a Mormon, is, like, I'm supposed to be, like, thrilled to the bone to be, like, in the one true church, but I'm just such a fucking idiot that can't do anything right. And that's why God's not making me, because I'm so bad. Like, no, like, that's not how it is. Getting in more of just an intentional approach to living has been really important. Establishing personal, meaningful rituals, like daily meditation. For me, like, singing is a. I use the word spiritual almost interchangeably with, like, this concept of, like, mental health, of a strong sense of personal identity and purpose and belonging. And so singing is that, for me, a way to like, give my emotions somewhere to go so they're not just, you know, at the end of the day, like, an emotion is just a sensation. An uncover. Yeah. A sensation in the body and a set of sensations in the body. And sometimes they just literally just need to be cycled out through movement or through this or that. Instead of just being like, oh, I feel bad. It must be because of this, and just, like, getting it in and folding in more and more into the feeling. Of course, there's just, like, the. The regular recommendations of, like, exercise, getting enough sunlight, especially in the winter, especially during COVID when we're kind of stuck indoors. I have to, like, make it a point to, like, I need to go see the sun today. Like, I need to get some vitamin D in my eye holes, or else I'm gonna be, like, having this existential weight that I didn't like that I'm like, why do I feel sad today? I haven't seen the sun or vegetable.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:56] This is a real thing. And every winter it gets you.

Tanner Gilliland [01:48:59] Yeah. And I don't mean to. I know that there are people who are like, I exercise, I eat well, I do this, and I'm still miserable. And. And that's not obviously what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about my own personal equation here. And yeah, I'd say those are the big ones for me.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:21] Couple more things I thought of while you're talking. Number one, the book Inner Bonding by Margaret Poole. It's a book about reparenting. We've both read it. I always recommend it to everyone. Every now and then I'll get a message from someone like, I read this book and it changed my life. I just got one today and it made me so happy. But yeah, it's about the concept of reparenting, which is like, you know, the experiences you went. I know you know this, but the experiences you went through as a child and the trauma that you went through, like that version of you that you were as a child is still like, in you somewhere. And, you know, we have like these different parts of us and it's like about reconnecting with. With your inner child and being able to sort of like work in harmony with them. Because a lot of the time when we're freaking out, our inner child is like, ah, we are so scared right now. And then if you can come in as like a loving adult and say, well, it's okay because this, and here's what we're gonna do and like, provide that comfort to yourself that you weren't like, conditioned to. You know, like, most of us didn't have parents who taught us how to emotionally self regulate. So a lot of us just like, repress stuff down. So, yeah, inner bonding. And then also I read this book called Burnout, which is also by Emily Nagursky, who wrote Come as yous Are and her sister, I think. Um, and it's the secrets to unlocking the stress response cycle. And one thing in it that she wrote that was really powerful for me was she said that exercise is the number one way to complete the stress response cycle. And like, reading it in those terms really made something click for me. And this whole year I've been really on like a fitness and strength journey. And that's been really cool. What do I do? So I do Pilates and I do weightlifting and like various strength training things.

Tanner Gilliland [01:51:03] I started rock climbing.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:05] Yeah, I rock climb now. I'm not very good, but that's been huge. That's kind of like a spiritual practice for me. Right now because I have so many mental blocks present and so many stories about how I can't do it and just like a whole complex about stuff like that. So that's been good for me. Yeah. And hiking and obviously.

John Dehlin [01:51:24] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:51:25] I'll add one more thing which is finding a creative avenue. We kind of touched on that at the beginning.

John Dehlin [01:51:31] For mental health.

Tanner Gilliland [01:51:32] For mental health. I think being creative is a human need.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:37] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:51:38] And to feel like we're able to express and to organize chaos is something that's very, very deeply within us. And again, we live in this ultra consumeristic society where we think like, oh, if I can't make a living off this, it's not worth doing, or I can't do it well, so it's not worth doing. And that we just like have to scrap those narratives if we want to survive individually and collectively. Because making and creating and sharing are all parts, like an innate part of being human. And so if we're not creating, we're disconnected from a part of our nature. So finding something that, like, if you're interested in making something, explore it, do it. Like the only one holding you back is yourself. Like knowing is. Can give you permission to do it. But you.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] I love it. While we're on this topic of kind of mental health health, I'm just gonna. My listeners have no idea about this, but I recently lost 27 pounds. And part of it is from just changing my diet. And you guys have been vegetarians or vegans for quite some time. I'm 51. I love meat, I love food, I love ice cream. I love all the things that are not healthy.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:55] And I've got it all John on the vegan side.

John Dehlin [01:52:58] And I carried a lot of extra weight for a long, long time. And it affected me in a lot of ways. Carrying extra weight around, you know, clogged nasal passages, a constant cough, phlegm in my throat. And my brother just really got into veganism, recently lost like 50 or 60 pounds, something crazy like that. And it took me a little bit to even get interested. But I, I started eating more of a plant based diet and It's. I've lost 27 pounds. I breathe clearly out of my nose, I don't feel sluggish, I don't nap as much. I sleep better. Sex is better. Like everything's better when I'm not 27 pounds lighter and I feel better eating less meat, less dairy, less sugar. And, and, and so is, is what you eat an important part of your physical and mental health? And if so, just talk a Little bit about that.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:58] Oh my God, yes. I'm so passionate about this. Well, I mean, I think cultivating love for yourself, part of that is caring for your body as best you can. And it, this is another thing where I feel like we are not taught how to nourish our bodies properly. There's so much, well, there's so much processed food that is heavily subsidized by the government and there's a whole corruption there. And then there's also diet culture which is, you know, this enormous industry that just doesn't work and you know, gets people stuck in these cycles of self hatred and like yo, yo, dieting and all this stuff and it fucks up their relationship with food and their own bodies. And I've experienced that a lot in my life. And for me, well, I went vegan for like all of the reasons that someone goes vegan, which is, you know, the environment and animal rights and health. I'd say now it's animal rights are like my main sort of thing, I

John Dehlin [01:55:02] think about new morality. Right?

Samantha Shelley [01:55:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:06] We weren't taught to care about that.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:08] I just say that because I think like, you know, plant based diets are definitely like the healthiest diets, but that could include a little bit of meat and still be very healthy. So. But where was I going with this? What are we talking about?

John Dehlin [01:55:20] Health, Mental health.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:23] It's apparently it's not very good for my being vegan.

Tanner Gilliland [01:55:26] I think it's just very obvious that like if our body is a machine, then the type of fuel we're putting into it matters. Like it will make a difference. If you're putting garbage into your system, it's going to make you feel like garbage. You're going to be like, that will be. Your output will match the input. And so part of it's a radical act of self love to feed yourself. I've had disordered eating. I don't know if I've never been like diagnosed with an eating disorder, like capital letters, but definitely. And Mormonism honestly has played into that for my mission especially and tied up with some scarcity hangups that I have. Like I don't have enough resources, therefore I can't spend the money on food. I'm too sad. Nothing feels good. I don't want to eat. And especially through that, reading the book Inner Bonding that Samantha mentioned and practicing internal dialoguing with myself and for viewing myself as both like an adult that has to meet my responsibilities and as a child that needs to be like deeply loved and cared for and from a More like abstract, spiritual approach. Like being the object of my own veneration that I want to prepare for myself. The best of things to eat so that I can do my work. The offering of my life as a, as a catalyst or messenger of love and good, you know, all the good things, peace and joy and all that. I have to be able to be able to do that, to show up for myself, to provide for myself, to eat in a way that will allow me to live the kind of life that I want. And so, yeah, definitely key there. Congratulations on your.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] It's been great. I loved it. Like, I thought I would just hate it and it'd be grueling, but it's, it's. I really enjoyed it. I don't want to go back. I occasionally have meat, I occasionally have eggs. I occasionally, I really don't have ice cream. Even though I love it. I had to give up coffee because it wasn't coffee that I loved. It was cream and sugar that I loved.

Tanner Gilliland [01:57:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:37] And the cream and sugar was not good for me.

Tanner Gilliland [01:57:40] What about some oatmeal

John Dehlin [01:57:44] almond milk now?

Samantha Shelley [01:57:45] Yeah, but, but oat milk is better.

John Dehlin [01:57:48] Oat milk, yeah, yeah. Starbucks doesn't have. And there's not.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:51] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:52] But, but anyway, I just feel, I just feel way, way better. Samantha, I don't want to lose a thought. You, you. Yeah, I just want to see if I can.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:59] I remembered it.

John Dehlin [01:57:59] You remembered it. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:58:00] Yeah. So what I was going to say is just those factors specifically diet culture for me really like messed up my relationship with my own body, with my relationship with food, so, you know, couldn't listen to hunger cues properly. It's something a lot of, of, well, a lot of people. But I feel like, especially women who are like often more susceptible to the diet industry. Maybe that's never generalization. But anyway, going vegan and learning about plant based nutrition has really helped me heal that relationship with myself and with food. To now I feel like I don't have any issues. And I think it's. It was switching my mindset from this. Like, so many people have a bad relationship with food because it doesn't. Well, there's like control issues because we are kind of made to be addicted to these processed foods that are being subsidized by the government and stuff and are just objectively bad for us. And then there's, you know, food and your body. It's just like an. It can be another source of self hatred. And so if you don't have a strong loving relationship with yourself, that can absolutely be a part of that or maybe even kind of like the cause of it. And so I feel like learning about food through this lens of what food can I add to my body to, you know, make myself feel as good as possible, rather than like, how little can I consume and, you know, how small can I be? And just all of those messed up messages that we hear. Yeah. I know that for some people with a history of disordered eating, like veganism, you know, may not be for them or strict veganism, but for me, it's been very, very helpful.

Atheism, Agnosticism, and Evolving Beliefs

John Dehlin [01:59:38] Love it. So I was watching a video you guys recently did where the topic of atheism versus Agnostic agnosticism came up. And Samantha, I almost felt like you kind of are annoyed by her hate kind of that discussion altogether. Yeah, what I want to get to is a lot of people that I work with that come to me for coaching. They're like, what's the purpose of life? Like you were saying, your nihilistic kind of phase where it's just like, man, if I'm just a dot, a little cell on a planet in a infinite universe, what's the point? Life's hard. Why do I even bother? The church gave me meaning and purpose. Now I don't have it. I. I don't even want to continue. Like, you get a lot of that. So there's the question of meaning and purpose, and then there's also the question of spirituality. So those are the two things I want to move to. But I think there's this gateway of, like, well, you got to believe in God or you can't have any of that, or, oh, you're like kwaku. And, you know, these. These fetchers at Fairmormon want to club us over the heads with, like, this atheist or agnostic. I mean, really, it's just a way to smear. It's just a way to take a term. And first of all, I've never in my life identified as atheist or agnostic. Not one time ever have I ever called myself an atheist or agnostic just because I don't like the terms. And one of the reasons I don't like it is because they're so polarizing. It gives people a way to just judge you and dismiss you and write you off. And I hate all that. I hate that whole game.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:07] But I think these questions are bigger than just being able to be encapsulated in these. These terms that are oversimplified and made super negative. Yeah. So I. I reject that. I hate that whoever uses Atheism or agnosticism as a way to demean and smear people, you know, f you. Screw you, go away. Love you.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:28] Sorry. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [02:01:33] Having said all that, like, is there anything you guys want to say about belief in God or belief in an afterlife or any of that as the gateway to the. Maybe to the two more interesting questions about how do you find meaning and purpose, and what does spirituality look like to you? After Mormonism, I think when people are

Samantha Shelley [02:01:51] taught to find meaning and, well, I'll just say meaning externally, then they keep seeking externally. And that's why I think the question of, like, is there a God? Isn't there? Is so important for so many people because it is just, like, representative of this notion that they have that they need to find something outside of.

John Dehlin [02:02:11] Tell me what it is. Where is he? Who is he? What does he want?

Tanner Gilliland [02:02:14] Oh, there's a guru, a prophet who knows. Well, I guess I'll follow them.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] If they know exactly what's the scripture, what do I follow?

Samantha Shelley [02:02:21] Yeah, And I think not to say that finding meaning is. Isn't about external things in the sense of. It is about connection with other human beings and with. Well, from my perspective and nature. But it's. I think it's finding the interconnectedness of all things. And I think that's what basically every spiritual teacher throughout history that has been good as tool is to recognize that oneness. You know, we're all just these interacting systems and processes, and nothing's truly individual. What's the thing you always say that there's, like, more bacteria on your body than there are cells on your body or something. Yeah, that's why. But I think through realizing interconnectedness, it's. It's both internal and external at the same time because it's realizing that it is something bigger than yourself. But it's also like you're kind of all of it in the sense that you're connected to all of it. I always think of it as, like, you know, in the same way that, like, your kidney is just one part of the larger organism that is your body. The earth is an organism, and we are like, individual little parts of that. But, like, there is like a. The Earth operates on, like, a collective intelligence, you know, like in the same way that my entire body has more intelligence than just my kidney, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:03:34] Yeah, yeah. And that's. So in some ways, is that spirituality to you or.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:39] Yeah, interconnectedness, definitely. And. And I think a big part of my spirituality is, I think when you realize that we're all just the products of our genetics and experiences. It helps you a. Forgive people and not judge people. Like, I think Jesus was right on the money about forgiveness and not judging people because, like, people are what life has made them to be. And if you look at like the worst criminals in society, for example, a lot of them, you know, well, possibly had genetic predispositions to certain things, but then also, like, have gone through a lot of trauma. Like you. I think I read that like the, the. Well, actually, I won't say this. Just got that I didn't want to give a bad statistic that wasn't true.

John Dehlin [02:04:23] Okay, well, let me ask you this way so I get. I can see a listener that wanting to write all this off as hippie mumby mumbo jumbo. Great. We're all connected. Like, when I went to church, it's like inspirational talks, singing in the choir, doctrine and theology. That gets me excited. Community. We're. We're Jesus and the Atonement and, you know, we're going to become God someday and we're working towards something and, and, and you know, testimony meetings and studying your scriptures and praying and getting the Holy Ghost, like, that's like. People are looking to get juiced up. So. So if somebody were to turn that back and say, well, Samantha, great, you're all connected. Do you. Where do you get the juice?

Tanner Gilliland [02:05:04] Yeah, where's the juice? What do you do with it?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:06] Yeah, I think rituals and like, and community things are important for giving people the juice.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] But where do you get it?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:15] What, me personally, I mean, I meditate and I journal. Those are really big ways that I connect to myself. And I find that when I'm the most connected to myself, I'm better able to connect with others. And when my empathy for myself is high, my empathy for others is high. When my judgment of myself is high, my judgment of others is high. So I think your relationship with yourself is like, is always first and foremost because how you, how you feel about yourself is, is gonna affect how all your other relationships, like people who are very. People who are hateful to others, are hateful with themselves. You don't find someone who like, genuinely loves and accepts themselves, who's hateful to other people. It just doesn't happen. So I think like, recognizing that personal practices like meditation are like an offering to the world as well, in the sense that, like, if you can take care of yourself, you can show up in the world with more empathy and less judgment. And then also, I mean, like, learning, I think, is a, is a really important thing, because by understanding all the systems that create, that give rise to certain types of people or maybe certain crimes or certain mental illnesses and like, all these various things, like, when you understand the system, you're able to be a more effective change maker. And again, I think when you kind of understand that we're all the products of our genetics and experiences, then you can start thinking about, well, how can I. How can we work to create different systems that will give people, like, healthier experiences, that will make them, like, happier, healthier people who are more beneficial to

Tanner Gilliland [02:06:46] society and becoming, you know, contributing to that is like, you do derive a sense of satisfaction and personal fulfillment from that. I. Yeah, even, even like, as we talk about, you know, the fair Mormon or whoever, and you're like, ah, those knuckleheads. Like, at the end of the day, I don't have any personal animosity toward them. I'm not even, like, I'm not even truly hurt by, like, you know, they've done videos knocking us or whatever. And it's like, the end of the day doesn't really hurt me because, like, I know who I am, like, I know what I'm doing. And, like, I also can deeply empathize with someone who's trying to, like, at all costs, hold on to something that they hold dear. And so, like, I see when I see someone lashing out in anger toward me or toward my community, I see someone in pain and I'm like, I'm sorry that that pain is being directed in this way, but I don't hate you for it. And, you know, should. Should anything change with any one of them, I welcome them with open arms. And even if not, I still would because at the end of the day, they're still just as worthy of love and respect as I am. Going back to the original point about atheism and agnosticism, I think part of the problem with the terms is, like, even the word God itself is so convoluted and that every single person has their own definition of what God means to them and their own relationship with that word. So it's hard to speak to every single person's personal interpretation of God. You know, for Mormons, it's this bearded Homo sapiens polygamous in the sky in Kolob, and I certainly don't believe in that.

John Dehlin [02:08:32] And his wives. And his wives.

Tanner Gilliland [02:08:33] And his wives. Yep, gotta make those babies to inhabit those planets. I actually, I don't know if I'd be classed as a theist in any real substantive sense, but I would say that, like going from that state of believing in a somewhat traditional view of God, that there is a conscious being who assembled the planet together from thin air or other materials or whatever your story is, and put the animals on it and put people on it, and going away from that and viewing the universe as, like Samantha said, as more of an organism in and of itself, something that is just happening and that we are a part of that happening. So, you know, if, if nothing is divine, then the flip side of that is everything is divine. And that's where, like pantheism comes in. So I'm just as much a pantheist as I am an atheist.

John Dehlin [02:09:36] How does everything is divine spring forth from nothing is divine?

Tanner Gilliland [02:09:39] Well, if nothing is divine except for our perception and our decision to consider it such, then there's no, no limit on what we're able to consider divine.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] But some people are going to go, no, wait, I don't want, I don't want to believe in something powerful or majestic just as a fiction, as something like I delude myself into. I want to know. Like, I think this is the compelling thing about a high demand religion. It's like, no, no, this is the one true church. You have a purpose. Here's what it is. You're going to become a God. There is a God, there is an afterlife. And it's like someone handing you the certainty of something very powerful and cool and a big story and something to really believe in versus. And I'm going to mischaracterize what you just said, which is like, well, I guess nothing matters. So everything matters. I guess I'll, I'll just convince myself that everything matters versus being handed some really big story. How does that become truly motivating and exciting to you when it's almost like a decision?

Tanner Gilliland [02:10:46] I think it ties into what Samantha said about the awareness of the connectivity. Because in religion you do exist as this isolated entity. You are a spirit being and you're your own self. You were put on the earth. You didn't come out of the earth, you're put on it. Yeah. And so when you're discovering it's a, it's a practice of taking yourself seriously as if, well, if I, if I am or, you know, we are the highest expression of complex thought, of consciousness, what would, how do we act? If you're God, you got your wish, you got exalted and he put you on this planet right here and you're God now, what do you do with that? Like, no one ever takes thought to that they're just like, oh, I just want to live for happy. What they're saying is, I don't want to have to worry about it. I don't want to figure it out. I don't want to take myself seriously. I want someone else to tell me what my destiny is and not get too specific about it, but just give me hope so they can lull me into carnal passivity or whatever the term is. It's really this. The spiritual quest is finding yourself and taking yourself seriously. And when you understand that all things really are connected, and they are connected because you can find that everything, all these systems do interact and you can trace them to their importance to you. And so when you go out into the world, you find yourself all over. And so it's this process of like, pure joyful discovery and intentional living of, like I said, taking yourself seriously. If you're God, what do you do? What kind of life do you live? What makes you happy? When you get to heaven, are you going to sit around and play a harp for 10 million years?

John Dehlin [02:12:31] You're going to have billions of babies,

Tanner Gilliland [02:12:33] billions of spirit babies.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:35] That's the best thing to come up with.

Tanner Gilliland [02:12:36] Yeah. You're just going to be having sex with person after person after person, and then you're going to have to hear prayers from all of them for the rest of eternity. It'll get boring after a while when you really, really think about. About eternity. And we're incapable of understanding or even beginning to comprehend what that would be like. But if you really get into the weeds of an eternal existence, all of it would get so boring. I can't think of a single thing that I'd want to do forever and not get totally sick of. So there's the novelty, the limitation. The limitation that compels, the constraint that compels creativity is really interesting in life. The ephemeral nature of it gives it its value.

John Dehlin [02:13:27] Meaning. We all die.

Tanner Gilliland [02:13:28] We all die. So do something, like, experience something, find something.

John Dehlin [02:13:33] Make the miracle of life.

Tanner Gilliland [02:13:35] Yeah. And following your own bliss, I think, is the key, is like, we just. We're always following what other people tell us is good. Whether that's an interest in something weird or doing something weird or dressing weird or dancing weird or, you know, we don't want to be perceived as weird or different or this. But we all have these inclinations for things that make us unique. And when you follow those things and honor them and, you know, consider them with the same devotion that you would have considered your religious obligation to Elohim Then you find your life just truly blossoming. And joy is a byproduct of that of taking yourself seriously and not seriously at all. You know, realizing the hilarity of it and being able to laugh at yourself in the condition that you find yourself in. Is this all too gobbledygook?

John Dehlin [02:14:26] No, it's beautiful. Sam.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:28] Keith Ranieri could never. Well, you asked, where is the juice? And I think, like, I like to believe that humans are inherently good, and I think we are all wired to release oxytocin when we help someone, for example. And I think they've shown studies of babies, even, like, demonstrate, like, babies are, like, good. Like, they want people to be happy. And. Anyway, sorry, I'm, like, the queen of, like, quoting half things I remember and then, like, not really adding any value. But I. I mean, like, with finding divinity or whatever you want to call it, I think it's such an individual process, and I. I feel like I talk about this a lot, and it's kind of silly, but it's also not silly to me. But my first cat that I got as an adult, Clickbait, changed my life because for the first time, I was responsible for this, like, helpless being, and it was all on me. And this was when I was at my most depressed and existential and nihilistic.

John Dehlin [02:15:29] And I. I knew Clickbait.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:30] You knew Clickbait? It was one beautiful year that he lived. And, yeah, like, I know it might sound silly to some people, but, like, clickbait really gave me a sense of meaning and purpose and a reason to wake up, because it was. I can. I cannot take care of myself because I've been doing that for a while. But, like, I. I have to take care of this kitten. Like, I. You know, I'm not dead inside. Like, I don't want this kitten to suffer. I want him to live, like, the happiest, healthiest life he can. And so then that, like, opened up a doorway for me of, like, when I see this animal suffering, I feel pain. And so why am I okay with other animals suffering? So then my compassion sort of expanded to the larger world of animals, and I went vegan. And then I. I feel like it's just been a process of. There's a quote I really like. It might be by Tara Brack, but it's basically just expand your compassion until it includes everyone and everything. And I think that that's a process, and I think if you really start looking and seeking to understand, your compassion will just naturally increase, because I. I just think so much Judgment is just not understanding. Like, if we understood people's pain or people's whatever. If we just understood people, it's a lot harder to judge them, you know, because we kind of understand what's behind maybe even like harmful actions, you know. So.

Tanner Gilliland [02:16:53] Yeah, I also want to say that, like, you know, I. I particularly couch a lot of my language in spiritual. We use terms like divinity and all that. I don't. I. That. That's not, to me, like a necessity. That's my personal aesthetic. Not like it's. It's a. My way of expressing. And a person doesn't have to be spiritual to be fully fulfilled and joyful and contributing and all that.

John Dehlin [02:17:23] Well, because some people associate the term spiritual with, like, spirits and supernatural. And they're. They become. If they lose their faith or leave the church. Some can become very. Not. Not all. Some still believe in God or still believe in Jesus or still believe in the Holy Ghost. But others are like, oh, that. That's all triggering because that's. That's all connected to organization. I didn't love. So they feel like I. I don't even like that term spiritual.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:46] Yeah, you don't have to use it. I think. I just think of it as whatever your connection to something bigger is, you know, whatever your meaning, purpose, you know, like, we're all spiritual beings. We're all wired to feel awe and to kind of crave transcendence in a way. And I, you know, I don't think we should all be walking around trying to transcend all the time. I think embodiment is, like, more important, but.

Tanner Gilliland [02:18:11] And ultimately I'd say that that is what the transcendent experience, if there is such a thing it allows you to do is realize the importance of presence and embodiment. That it's not a form of escapism, but of, like, true integrated living of real. Of like. Because we're so culturally into escapism, we just long to distract ourselves from the experience of consciousness. We have to be watching something. We have to be on our phone. We have to be taking something, we have to be eating something. We have to be. You know, we can't just. It's so hard to just sit with our feelings and thoughts and ultimately being able to do that. And like you said, learning, I think, is a huge process of that, because knowledge is power. And the more you understand how all these systems are working together, the more empowered you are. That's why I say I don't believe in a higher power. I believe in a wider power that There is energy that comes from understanding these systems. And the more you're able to

Samantha Shelley [02:19:18] take

Tanner Gilliland [02:19:19] in the good, the more you're able to put out goodness and do it in bigger and. And better ways, I suppose.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:30] And it's all just so. Like Tanner said, it's like the word divinity is like, his aesthetic or whatever. Like, it's all just so personal. I think there are so many different frameworks of, like, operating under the same principles. Like, even if you look at. So, you know, like, I. I love Buddhism, and then I love Taoism, and then, you know, you can find these similar principles in all kinds of ancient religions and, like, modern things, you know, like, modern therapy is, like, touching on so many things that Buddhism has been teaching for 2,000 years. And, yeah, it's all just like, whatever you want to do. Like, there's no. I think, like, the important thing for us is, like, there's no blueprint. We're not trying to say you should see all things as divine. It's like, if you don't, then you don't. Like, it doesn't matter either way. It's like, it's your. It's your thing, you know? Like, if you happen to feel like everything is divine, amazing, run with it. Like, enjoy it. But you can only, like, be what you are. That's why I think the biggest thing is. Is acceptance. And I think that's presence. And that's what Eckhart Tolle talks about, is just accepting everything exactly as it is right now. Because, like, what else can you do otherwise? You're just creating, like, an inner resistance which is going to SAP your energy, probably bring you down.

John Dehlin [02:20:48] Attachment brings suffering.

Samantha Shelley [02:20:50] So if you're just like a completely existential nihilist, like, okay, that's where you're at. Like, what good does it do to. I mean, it's good to feel hopeful that you can go beyond that if you want to, but it doesn't do any good to, I don't know, feel like you should feel some other way if you don't.

Tanner Gilliland [02:21:08] Amen.

Perspectives on Death, Meaning, and Purpose

John Dehlin [02:21:09] How do you guys think about death in the afterlife now?

Tanner Gilliland [02:21:14] I'm not too worried about it. I wasn't worried about it before I was born, and I assume it'll be the same way afterward. Having those experience with psychedelics, I think, took a big fear of that away from me. Not that there's not still, like, I want to live, and I am afraid of death in the sense that, like, I take precaution to avoid it, but as a. As just a concept, as an Experience. I'll never really experience it. So my focus is on life. And I don't believe that there's. That the. That Tanner Gilliland will persist in any real sense in an abstract way. Like, the things that I've made, the influence I've had on people, that will continue. My spirit in that way will. Will continue. But besides that, I don't have hope or fear. I'm not sure which one it is. At the prospect of living forever.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:19] Yeah, I would not want to live forever. And I think it's.

Tanner Gilliland [02:22:22] And if I. If I do, then I'll accept it. But for now, it doesn't really. It doesn't compel me.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:32] It's beautiful that we. I think that we come into the world and, you know, we try and make it better, and then our energy gets transferred into something else. And hopefully we've kind of, like, had a bit of a domino effect or butterfly effect or whatever. And I think a lot about my grandma, who's dead, and how I really try to, like, take all of the good things that she embodied and, like, bring them into my life and then add to it with, like, okay, I don't have to be, like, trapped in a marriage in the 50s or, you know, like, it's like I get to take all the good and then kind of, like, go beyond the bad in a way through, like, healing and learning and. And growing and just living in a more modern world. And that's really cool because. I don't know, I mean, even thinking about my grandma, she was this amazing woman. But it's like, if you imagine an amazing person 100 years ago, people probably wouldn't consider them that amazing or 100 years from now, like, the good people of today wouldn't be. You know, like, we're just society. Everything's just evolving all the time. So it's like you just. You come in, you try and, like, do something good and get some. Plant some good seeds that will be there for other people to enjoy in the future. And that. That's nice. Like, imagining some kind of legacy of. Yeah, just making the world better, I guess, when you. When you. One thing we haven't said is, like, I feel like a big part of my spirituality is trying to reduce suffering in the world. And I think if you have that in mind and you try and do things in the service of that, it's nice to imagine in the future are humans who are way smarter than you, like, reaping the benefits of, like, things that maybe you helped set in motion a while ago, even in some small way.

Tanner Gilliland [02:24:18] Yeah, it's. I am excited. I think it's cool to be going back into the. The soup, as it were. Like, you know, you think about what the electrons and materials that make up your body, like, where have they been? Where have these electrons been? They've just been cycling around here for untold millions of years. In how many creative forms? And currently taking this form. Someday we'll take other forms.

John Dehlin [02:24:44] Elvis. You have part of Elvis.

Tanner Gilliland [02:24:45] I got part of Elvis in me. I think so. I came out with lamb chops.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:52] I think so.

John Dehlin [02:24:52] Or Courtney Love or I don't know what.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:56] Wait, you said, who's Courtney Love?

Tanner Gilliland [02:24:57] The one that I'm Courtney, allegedly. What was I gonna say? Oh, and it is as you were

John Dehlin [02:25:05] saying about, you know, Courtney's still alive, isn't she?

Tanner Gilliland [02:25:07] Yeah, she is, but. But you know her, you cycle out your cells every like seven years or something. So she's probably scattered some bits of Courtney that have been absorbed into the system, gone into the food system. I've eaten it or drank it. You are all sharing material. It says that on my ancestry dot

Samantha Shelley [02:25:25] com, My cripple plastics and Courtney Love.

Tanner Gilliland [02:25:30] But though, you know, the world is getting better, right? Isn't that Steven Pinker's one of his big points?

John Dehlin [02:25:36] Statistically speaking, what else would you rather be alive?

Samantha Shelley [02:25:38] I think about that constantly, honestly.

Tanner Gilliland [02:25:42] And I have hope that the future will be better. And knowing that my little contributions, even if they don't end up in a history book or whatever, it's all part of the bettering of this whole collective enterprise that's going on and to circle

Samantha Shelley [02:26:02] that back to the self on the shelf. YouTube. I just think when we get messages from people saying that like our videos have helped them to love themselves more or set boundaries with their parents or just fully help them get out of the church and now they feel this greater sense of freedom. And like they're like having so much fun with their husband. Like drinking for the first time and like having all these like life expanding experiences. That's like the best thing. And I think choosing underwear.

John Dehlin [02:26:31] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:32] People get so excited. Like, everyone will roast people. Like, well, not everyone, but I see Mormons and ex Mormons. Actually ex Mormons will do it too, where they'll roast ex Mormons for like being so excited to have coffee. Like, why do ex Mormons think that drinking coffee is a personality? And it's like because they were denied this thing. It's like, it's not about the coffee. It's about this. This like Expression of autonomy and like, I own my own choices and like, hell yeah, let them be excited about that. I hate when people, like, expect ex Mormons to have some completely different personality outside of Mormonism as soon as they leave. And if they don't, then they're like, uncool or whatever. And I feel like there's a lot of projection. I'm. And I'm mostly talking about Twitter, which is just like a dumpster fire, as we all know. But yeah, if we can play any part in like, helping people live happier, healthier lives, like, what is better than that? Like, what if that's not meaning, then then what is?

John Dehlin [02:27:24] Yeah, it's when people come to me trying to heal and grow after Mormonism, you know, for me, it often it comes down to everything we've already talked about and meaning and purpose is just a really big thing. And for me it's always like, yeah, I was depressed and then I started Mormon stories and, and it's been super hard. But now I just, every day it's like, who do I help today? How do I alleviate suffering today? How do I bless people's lives today? How do I give people their lives back today? And I feel like I'm good till I die. Like, I'll just keep doing this and now I'm getting paid for it. Thank you for all who support. And it's amazing, but not everyone could start a podcast or a YouTube channel, you know what I mean? But I wish everyone could, because isn't it cool to be able to like, like it's such a sacred journey people are on. When you think about how that if life is finite, if like, if time is literally the stuff life is made of, I'm quoting Benjamin Franklin, then like, time is sacred. And if people were on a course to like, give their life away to things that weren't true and that was going to squander a lot of potential joy and meaning and fulfillment and freedom and choice. And I'm not saying that people live religious lives, live drop jury, lonely, miserable lives, but usually when people are in the religion is because they believe it's true. And if it, if you find out that it wasn't what it claims to be or it's even not true, then yeah, they squander 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years of their precious lives giving to and paying and praying and obeying and worshiping and following something that isn't what they thought. And so if you can give that back to them and then help them kind of get a head start so that they don't make a big mess of it and screw it all up, but instead have better relationships, better mental health, better physical health, better community, better spirituality, better meaning. That's amazing. Right? That's a great thing. But then not everybody can start a podcast or YouTube channel.

Tanner Gilliland [02:29:23] No, but everyone can find a way to, to contribute, to create, to express themselves. And, you know, it's, it is devastating to think about people who have lost so many years to Mormonism, but I'm sure you can attest to this as well. Is that often those people now feeling a sense of scarcity, of, like, so much time wasted, are able to approach their lives with so much intention and so much beauty that it's just genuinely inspiring to be around them. And we, we have mutual, plenty of mutual friends who, who are examples of that. Who. You just look at them and you're like, you are killing it. Like, how cool.

John Dehlin [02:30:07] And some of these people left in their 50s and 60s. It's not all.

Tanner Gilliland [02:30:10] Yeah, that's what I mean.

John Dehlin [02:30:12] Yeah. No, I know.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:13] Yeah. But I, but I just want to offer hope because they're clients I have right now that are just like, oh, I'm 50. I'm 55, I'm 60. I'm so depressed at how much time I've wasted. And that's how they think of it right now.

Tanner Gilliland [02:30:26] And that's okay.

John Dehlin [02:30:27] That, like, I want to just. I don't even know if I want to continue because it's so overwhelmingly disappointing and suffocating that I've wasted five, six decades. Wasted. I don't believe they wasted it, but five or six decades, that maybe I don't even want to go on anymore. And that's what.

Tanner Gilliland [02:30:45] Sometimes I felt that after 25, I, I, I felt that. Yeah, I get that and don't quite get it, because that is.

John Dehlin [02:30:52] You felt that even in your 20s.

Tanner Gilliland [02:30:53] Yeah. So I can't imagine the pain. Totally. A hundred percent valid. But if it's, if it's scarce and sacred, then, like, there is so much nectar to be, you know, squeezed from that. And people, you know, because you're in the work, that that doesn't have to stay that way. That life can be profound and beautiful and flourishing.

John Dehlin [02:31:21] What are some other ways people can find it if it's not a podcast or YouTube channel?

Samantha Shelley [02:31:24] Well, I was gonna say just first, though, to piggyback for what you said. I keep saying piggybacking, like I'm in some corporate meeting.

Tanner Gilliland [02:31:33] We gotta get synergy here.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:36] But I think that's why presence is important because a lot of people who talk about right about present say that time expands when you're present because you're not thinking about, you know, this is how many years are behind me and maybe I only have this many years left. It's just like being fully in this moment is like the best way to squeeze the most out of life. But then to answer your question about how can people find meaning and purpose, I think it's really useful to operate with the belief that everyone has a purpose. Whether that's like one single thing or just like, you know, maybe it's just like being a loving person in the people in your life, life, you know, whatever, that there's so many different forms that can take. But I think when you, I think again, presence is really important because then it, then you're, when you're living more intention intentionally and more consciously. And I don't know, I feel like that that helps you find meaning quicker. And I think if you believe that you will be led to whatever it is that you need to do to contribute in this world. I think just believing that makes it a reality. And I'm like, yeah, as woo woo as you want with that belief. Like full on believe that like all the energy of the universe is like conspiring to help you. Because I think that can be a useful belief.

John Dehlin [02:33:03] Yeah. And, and I just, I lost my thought for just a second, but okay, I just got it back. It's sometimes, and this isn't fair, but I'm going to say it anyway. It sometimes feels like a high demand. Religion is organized to distract yourself from yourself. Absolutely. It's like stay busy, do your callings, go on your mission, get your education, get married, have kids, serve in your callings, have your, have your career. And then when you're done, serve a mission until you die and serve in the temple. And you know, and it's just like boom, your life's gone. Right? And all that time you're not even like when you're praying, you're not taught to like look inside of what you really want. You're taught to like, what, what, what's a.

Tanner Gilliland [02:33:49] What is, what am I supposed to want?

John Dehlin [02:33:51] And the Holy Ghost is just associations that people made where it's like all the religious programming comes back into your brain as the Holy Ghost telling you how to live. And so you're literally spending your life avoiding going inside. But then, you know, you referenced Jesus earlier and I think another thing Jesus got right. He said the kingdom of God is what within you of God is within you. It's within you. And that's the trick is going. You know, you talk about presence, you talk about mindfulness and, and you know, a way that I think about that is going, still getting quiet. And it's uncomfortable because you've got trauma and you've got sadness and you've got emotions and disappointment. And it's, it's one of the most courageous things you can possibly do is just going quiet, getting still and starting to get to know yourself. It's like, it sounds so, it sounds so cheesy, but it's like the great journey of mankind is just going within yourself.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:56] I really think that's the number one most important thing is people learning how to sit with themselves. And isn't that what like every, I don't know, contemplative spiritual teacher taught throughout history?

John Dehlin [02:35:09] Including Jesus.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:09] Including Jesus. Yeah. I, I like Jesus a lot.

John Dehlin [02:35:13] Except when Mormons are listening to us, they're like, they're like staring at the screen. Maybe they're drooling a little bit. It's like, what are they talking about?

Samantha Shelley [02:35:18] Why are they drool?

John Dehlin [02:35:21] But I mean like going, still getting, still like, we don't, as Mormons, we have no idea what this, this is like a foreign language.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:29] And we have no idea what it even means.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:31] When I first read the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, I was like, oh, it was like touch and go wherever I was, whether I was going to abandon it. Because it's like there's a sort of, you know, like, you hear, you know, people like me and Tana talk about things and it's so easy for it to sound woo woo, because it's like so many of these concepts are so, so big, like interconnectedness. How do you describe interconnectedness to someone who hasn't like felt it? I don't know. I don't think you, I can't, I'm not like that good with words. Maybe you can, but like, you have to experience it. It's hard. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:02] And it takes effort.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:04] To get there.

Tanner Gilliland [02:36:05] Yeah. And I, I always. Who was it the like, father of existentialism Kierkegaard said? Or actually it wasn't Kierkegaard. It was one of the other ones who basically said like, there's only really one question, is that should you kill yourself?

Samantha Shelley [02:36:21] Isn't that Albert Kammer? I was thinking about that earlier, but I didn't want to say it.

Tanner Gilliland [02:36:25] Yeah. Obviously want to have sensitivity around suicide and things like that. But I also think that that Is a legitimate question is like, is life worth living? What kind of life would I think is worth living? And that's what I mean when I say, take yourself seriously. Like, I had to sit down and say, what would I like to experience before I die? Like, if I could have, if I could do anything, what would be worth pursuing in the course of this meaningless, futile existence? And then in pursuing that have been the truly sacred moments of my life. Following Mormonism were not things that I achieved. Like, I knew I was going to get this thing and I did it. Ha ha. It was being so surprised by joy, by being absolutely overwhelmed with something I didn't know was possible and feeling so much gratitude that I lived to experience it. And I think that's the money, the secret sauce, the thing that makes it worth it, is when you exert the effort, when you conceptualize and pursue it, when you take yourself seriously, then you'll be surprised at what life has to offer. At least I have. And not always in the most dramatic ways. Not always in being 10 out of 10, I felt, you know, felt different, connecting. You were talking about animals earlier. I started taking care of plants. I didn't think I could keep a plant alive to save my life. And I have, like, a ton and a garden because it was something that brought me into presence and brought me into a. Into a giving mentality of caretaking, of offering something to something else. And I think that's a big part of it as well.

Healing and Growth After High-Demand Religion

Samantha Shelley [02:38:16] Yeah. You know, we talk about Mormons feeling like, oh, I wasted 20 years of my life because I was in this thing. That wasn't true. But I think people all around the world and throughout history have wasted their lives by trying to force themselves into boxes that weren't authentically them and that weren't necessarily conducive to happiness and healthiness. But I also think, like, using the word wasted is. I don't know, it, like, implies that there was some kind of other choice you could have made when that's not really true. Like, you presumably in a lot of these instances were born Mormon. Your brain was conditioned to think through the Mormon lens since you were born, like, what else could you have done? And there are so many scenarios where you maybe wouldn't have woken up from that and would have spent your whole life in that. And so, I mean, amazing that you made it any. That anyone that gets out at any point, like, that's so amazing to me. And I know it's so. It's such a blessing to have got out at you know, 22 or whatever it was. But yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:20] Getting out of a high demand religion, and I'm using that term in a kind, generous way, is a major life accomplishment. I mean, absolutely. It's like Olympic gold medal, Nobel Prize. Getting out of a high I demand religion, literally.

Tanner Gilliland [02:39:38] How few people have been able to do it, like, in the history of the world.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:43] So few people have the experience of like their. It's such a powerful experience to have your whole worldview crash and then like the like intellectual humility that teaches you. Like, there's so many good things that can come from that that like people that aren't in high demand religions may never have that experience. Like, there's so much like, how is it killer Gil Brown, that says the, the deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the greater shall be your joy. And I really believe that. And so many people, with or without Mormonism or any kind of religion or whatever, don't get that experience of like watching everything fall apart and then kind of getting to rebuild because we're all put in these different boxes.

Tanner Gilliland [02:40:27] John, you've said it plenty of time that it, it really does like endow you with a superpower. We're like mutants and learning and developing what your specific power is is an amazing, incredible journey.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:43] Because we weren't built to go beyond the tribe. Like, we were built to stay in it no matter what. So there is like, like, to me, that's like evolution in action if you're able to go beyond that. Like, we are wired for tribalism through and through to the point where when we find out that Joseph smith's sleeping with 14 year old girls, we'll make like some dumb video about it where we make jokes about being a virgin and just act like it's nothing. You know, like the lengths that people will go to to stay in that. And then like anyone that gets beyond it. Wow.

John Dehlin [02:41:12] Yeah. Yeah. I still feel very fortunate that I've been birthed by Mormonism because I feel like I made it to adulthood. I have a good education. I feel like I have a good basic sense of moral right and wrong and now I get to like, enjoy the rest of my life. Like, I feel very grateful to have been birthed through Mormonism, the Mormonism birth canal, and now to have the rest of my life to just love and enjoy.

Tanner Gilliland [02:41:38] Amen. I think that's a key part of the healing process is like, we do our work. People are like, you're just angry, bitter. And it's like, maybe I used to be.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:47] Where are you Getting that from our videos these days we're like being so overly loving.

Tanner Gilliland [02:41:51] Yeah. If any, I don't feel it. I feel genuinely grateful for my experiences more. That doesn't mean it's free from criticism and that I never need to talk about it again. All that it's saying is that I don't consider it as a bad thing. For me, I see it only as a stepping stone, a chapter, a prelude for the things that are happening now and coming that wouldn't. My life wouldn't be the same if I hadn't been Mormon. I wouldn't have the life I have now. And I love the life I have now. So all I can do is be grateful for my experience as a Mormon and hopefully try to help people to experience the same or similar things with less of the harmful bad parts that I experienced and more of the good.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:36] I think it can be useful to adopt the mentality that everything happens for a reason and that everything challenging is an opportunity for growth. Another thing we haven't mentioned.

Tanner Gilliland [02:42:44] Well, even if that reason is your understanding or your personal giving of meaning,

Samantha Shelley [02:42:49] whatever that means to you, and not to get like too saccharine, but gratitude, I think is so important. We're talking about mental health and it isn't this, like, it's not this small thing, you know, it's not just like a cutesy, like gratitude. Isn't there tons of good science now about how it does rewire your brain to find more good? And I think it's, you know, just like with compassion, you just expand it a little bit and then it. I think it's like that with joy and like a lot of good things. It's like if you just do a little bit, it's often like quite an exponential growth.

Tanner Gilliland [02:43:20] Something you got to cultivate for sure.

John Dehlin [02:43:22] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [02:43:22] Practice.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:23] Everyone get a gratitude journal.

John Dehlin [02:43:26] So now that we've reached the apex of our enlightenment, for the at least 2 hours and 45 minutes, it's time to talk about apologetics.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:36] So interestingly, you know, in this, this is a phase that will pass, I guarantee it, because most high profile apologists burn out or get burned out. But right now, in 2020, at the end of 2020, we're at this phase where fair Mormon has gotten kind of beaten down. And so they've hired some young, hip Gen Zers Kwaku and. And Cardinalis.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:57] Millennials.

John Dehlin [02:43:58] Are they millennials? Yeah, Brad Bradley Whitbeck or whatever his name is. And, and now they're, they're trying to do these new YouTube videos that are trying to be edgy and funny and, you know, f words bleeped out and cropping my head onto a demon and.

Tanner Gilliland [02:44:14] Yeah, I didn't know you were baphomet. That was kind of.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:16] We did that first. We put your head onto a demon for our Thrive presentation.

Tanner Gilliland [02:44:20] So old.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:21] Yeah, so it's a bit derivative, but whatever.

John Dehlin [02:44:24] But. But it's. You know, I think the Mormon Church is getting super desperate, you know, and frankly, you guys were kind of pioneers in this sense. Like, I'm not saying that you're the reason why the Mormon Church has been losing millennials. Every religion in the United States is losing their millennials, probably at a higher rate than Mormonism in many instances. But, you know, you guys kind of helped lead that charge. And I think a lot of people kind of looked at the church and looked at what you guys were doing and said, huh, that looks more fun, maybe a little bit. But either way, the church is, like, desperate because they're losing their adults, but they're also losing their young people. They're losing everybody. And so they're desperately trying to hang on. Traditional apologetics hasn't worked. Traditional Mormonism isn't working. And so now they're doing this really desperate set of videos on YouTube. F bombs and. And sacrilege and humor and. But still, you know, traditional, traditional kind of apologetic scripts.

Tanner Gilliland [02:45:25] Somewhat belligerent as well.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:26] Very belligerent.

Engaging with Mormon Apologetics and Critics

John Dehlin [02:45:28] Well, well, the only thing I just want to say to set this up is you guys have been kind of having little battles with KWAKU for some time. Like, for you guys, it's kind of old news. For the rest of us, KWAKU is kind of newer on the scene. But I just. I just want to hear whatever you guys have to say about this moment in time in Mormonism with youth and with this new brand of fair Mormon. Kwaku. Cardinal Ellis, Apologetics. What do you guys want to say about that?

Samantha Shelley [02:45:53] As doomed to fail?

Tanner Gilliland [02:45:58] Yeah, I think it's all going to backfire, and the effort will be disbanded. I think Kwaku as a personality and a brand of a type of apologist and defender of the faith, faith will persist in other forms, I don't think, in such a. Like, carrying the stamp of the LDS Church in the way that fair Mormon does, even if subtly.

John Dehlin [02:46:23] Unofficially official.

Tanner Gilliland [02:46:25] Yeah, because.

John Dehlin [02:46:26] Officially unofficial.

Tanner Gilliland [02:46:27] Yeah. It seems to me that.

John Dehlin [02:46:29] Why is it going to fail? What are all the reasons it's going to fail?

Samantha Shelley [02:46:32] Well, it's exposing people. It's exposing faithful people to more of the issues because it is a safe, you know, if these videos do well or gain traction, then that means more eyeballs are going to be on them.

John Dehlin [02:46:45] Polygamy and Book of Abraham and yeah, Mormon and DNA and all the problems,

Samantha Shelley [02:46:49] to name but a few. Because the truth is not on their side.

John Dehlin [02:46:52] John de Lynn and CS Letter Jeremy Runnels.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:55] Yeah, our videos are going to pop up right below. Doesn't bode well for them to be making these issues more mainstream and making people more aware of them. Their arguments are like obviously terrible and so, so that, I mean, yeah, you might be able to like get some people with them for a while, but I just think most people deep down are smarter than that and aren't gonna be like, yeah, Joseph Smith just probably didn't have sex with the 14 year olds. Even though like all the other prophets did have kids with people those age. So like they obviously did. But you know, it's just like the logic is bad. The truth isn't on their side. There's. The videos are just like so full of contempt. That's what surprises me the most about them is that I assume these videos are being made because people are reading the CS for example, and then doubting the church. So if you want to reach those people, you don't want to be ex belittling them for having doubts and you don't want to be showing contempt for them or acting like, you know, like they're stupid for, you know, being affected by the Cesar. That just seems like a losing strategy. Like you haven't got the truth on your side. You haven't got like empathy and connection on your side. The jokes are bad. Like what have you got? Good production.

Tanner Gilliland [02:48:05] They do have good production.

John Dehlin [02:48:10] I have two questions. So in Tanner, you'd be thinking about what you want to say as well. So one of the things, so I have this awesome opportunity where people write John lynch and Scott Gordon a fair Mormon and complain and then Scott Gordon and John lynch give their responses and then these people turn around and send me their responses. So I have all of Scott Gordon and John Lynch's responses and two of the things that are said and I just want to get your responses to these are the following. One is, you know, John lynch or Scott Gordon will go, oh, we've been putting out videos on YouTube with Fair Mormon for years and they've gotten like 12, 12 hits or 100 hits or maybe 500 hits hits and then no youth click on these things. And so now they're looking at their, their metrics, at their analytics and they're finding that younger people are actually clicking on these videos and they're getting way more clicks and views and minutes watched than anything fair has ever produced. So that's, that's one thing that John lynch and Scott Gordon are, you know, spiking the football and celebrating about. Do you have a response to that? And then I have a second part of the question.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:26] Well, if you believe that the videos will achieve your purpose of like getting people to not leave the ODS church, then sure, celebrate the increased views, increased watch time. Like what they've done is they've just gone from having zero YouTube game to having good YouTube game in the sense of good thumbnails, catchy titles. Kwaku, who's got like an established brand, good production.

John Dehlin [02:49:47] They're actors, by the way.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:48] These guys are actors. Like more entertaining than the typical fair Mormon. Like monotone. Yeah. So like it's, it's true. They are. From a YouTube standpoint, these videos are more successful. But to me, that is a good thing for like this side of things, like our side of it, which is like, yeah, you're good. More people are going to get exposed to the terrible logic of fair Mormon because fair Mormon was a big part of what made us leave the church.

Tanner Gilliland [02:50:14] And ask, ask, I'd say, how many people? If you got on ex Mormon Reddit and asked how many of you? Yeah, yeah, it was the apologist gateway.

John Dehlin [02:50:23] Fair Mormon is the gateway to leaving the church.

Tanner Gilliland [02:50:25] It is. I was so strict in my study before leaving the church, I would listen to Mormon Stories podcast, but I didn't listen to a single anti Mormon that you had on there. I only listened to the apologists and faithful people and it was them who convinced me that it was all fooey, Bushmen and Givens. And yeah, all the people would talk about the translation. It was. I forget who it was talking about.

John Dehlin [02:50:50] Witherspoon.

Tanner Gilliland [02:50:52] Yeah, there's a name. But as he was talking about the translation process, I was like, this doesn't hold water. Like, you've punched holes in your own argument. You've constructed this flimsy explanation that can maybe deflect this one and maybe deflect this one, but they have to contradict each other.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:08] Yeah, they'll use a certain logic. You'll see this. And we've only released one video so far, but one that's coming out tomorrow, I think shows this, where they'll use one, a piece of logic for something and then they'll go against their own logic when they need to to prove a different point. So Zero consistency.

Tanner Gilliland [02:51:23] Yeah. Even if it, like, totally. Not just in application of logic, but like, the whole narrative that they're using, like, with the Book of Mormon model, they'll be like, oh, you know, we never said it was all of north and South America. It only had to be this tight geography model until there's a different evidence. Well, we actually found a whale bone whale up in, you know, Alaska. So therefore. And it's like you're constantly undermining yourself

Samantha Shelley [02:51:47] and eventually it's like, nobody wants this, like, weird Frankenstein's monster of Mormonism where it's just like, maybe.

Tanner Gilliland [02:51:52] Yeah, they want it because it's simple. That's the whole reason you're in it. Yeah. So I think plain and precious truth, basically, I think they. The best thing they could have done is try to keep the wrap on it. I think that by drawing more attention to it, they're like, hey, we got a Pandora's box over here. But it's not a problem. You don't need to look in the box. We'll look in the box for you. And meanwhile, they're taking things out of the box and people are looking at the things in the box.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:17] And like, I didn't even know this was that. Now I believe in this weird logic about it. I didn't even know this was something I had to wrestle with. Like, you. You know, I could see a lot of people being like, oh, yeah, polygamy. That's always disturbed me. I'm gonna click on that video. And then you're getting like, all these other ones by, like, Kinderhook plates and first vision. And then at a certain point it's like, okay, so all of this stuff has different explanations. Nothing like what I thought this religion was. And that was the thing for me was just like, even if this, like, random version is somehow. It's just like, not what I signed up for. It's not what I want. Like, it's just bizarre and weird. I don't like this version of God. No, they did not. Also, even though their videos are doing, like, better than their other ones, they're

Tanner Gilliland [02:52:55] all ex Mormons watching.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:56] Yeah, number one, a lot of ex Mormons watching. Also, we've responded to one of their videos and I think it's the polygamy one. And as of the last time I checked, their video had 13,000 views and ours had. Has 26,000 views. They've had to turn off the comments on their video, turn off the like to dislike ratio. Meanwhile, we have, like, an amazing like to dislike ratio. I think it's like 2000 likes and

Tanner Gilliland [02:53:15] like 17,000 is helping us.

John Dehlin [02:53:17] Thank you fan woman

Samantha Shelley [02:53:20] and patreon.com self on the shelf.

John Dehlin [02:53:23] So many just, just turning off likes and dislikes and turning off comments shows that it's ex Mormon Reddit. It's the, it's the 180,000 people on ex Mormon Reddit that, that are all going, these videos are outrageous. And there's young people there, a lot of BYU students there, super young people. They're high school students in Utah. They're rushing to the videos, downvoting them, making mean, you know, making critical comments. That makes it just so like believing active Mormons who are doubting. Very few of them are actually watching these videos and they wouldn't know if they're helping these people yet. But chances are, yeah, there's no way more likely than give it apologetics plus six months or apologetics plus a year, you're out.

Tanner Gilliland [02:54:10] And like especially given the tone, it's such a turn off. That was such a huge turnoff to me as a member of the church who felt like genuine Christ like love. I remember writing about you in my Mormon journal and saying, me, John Delan, you, John Dehm, never had met you. I just said I have compassion for him, him because he was like, he just wanted to know. And so when I saw people, you know, not you specifically, but you know, the way they would talk about ex Mormons and anti Mormons and I would just say like, that doesn't align with how like my human experience, like I want, I want, I feel love. And right now I feel confused by the church and I want to be approached with like loving compassion. Not like Sam was saying, just like put down for having doubts. So I think it's just a, it's a mess that's really gonna really gonna have some kickback that they're not anticipating yet.

John Dehlin [02:55:10] I want to hear what you're about to say, but just so we don't leave this topic, like, I, it's, I, I said my immediate reaction was Christians are never gonna win by being unchristlike. That just doesn't work. Christ is about love and forgiveness and charity and kindness. And these videos are mean spirited and not only they mean spirited and hold that thought because I want to hear, hear it. But they're like, they lie about people like me and Jeremy Runnels by saying we're liars, but they are lying. They lie all throughout the videos by call and they're calling us liars. So there's a real hypocrisy there. And they call. Yeah, and they call. They say that me and Jeremy are intentionally trying to destroy families for profit. When I was able to show that these Mormon nonprofits, like More Good Foundation, Book of Mormon Central Fair Mormon. You add up how much money has been donated to these nonprofits in the past several years, it's tens of millions of dollars. So they're making bank and you could argue breaking up families and lying while they accuse people like me and Jeremy of lying and breaking up families for money. It's a fundamentally dishonest and mean spirited and fundamentally unchristlike proposition. And how do you, how do you keep people in a Christian church by acting that way?

Tanner Gilliland [02:56:28] Yeah, granted, there will always be, I think, a, at least a chunk of church membership. And this is probably in any organization that it's not about, it's not about Christ like love. It's just about identity. And even being belligerent in defense of your identity is seen certainly by us as a warped sense, but for them, a real sense of love. I'm doing, I am attacking you because I'm defending love, which there's something about

Samantha Shelley [02:56:56] like their emotional intelligence and their perception of love. Like, even when you were saying like your perception of John Dehlin while we were members, I was thinking that that to me shows that you had like this higher emotional intelligence than I had. Cause I was just so sort of tribal and I don't know, like, I think lacking in empathy and emotion that I couldn't see John as like through that lens, I would have just vilified him. And because that was like my tiny view of love at that time was like, yes, it is good to demonize people. You know, it is a twisted, like version of love.

John Dehlin [02:57:30] And people have sent me Kwaku's responses to their criticism too. And Kwaku's like, well, Jesus in the Book of Mormon committed genocide and killed millions of people by dropping volcanoes on them.

Samantha Shelley [02:57:41] That's the higher power he believes in.

John Dehlin [02:57:42] Yeah, Christ. Christ turned over the tables and he, he said, what a generation of vipers. Christ used ad hominem and Christ attacked people. And, and so they're able to just interpret the scriptures in a way to literally justify violence, spiritual or psychological or even physical violence.

Samantha Shelley [02:57:59] I think what we see God as says a lot about what our highest ideals are. And like, if your highest, you know, maybe if you had like a super authoritarian parent who always put you down and treated you like you weren't good at enough, that genuinely, like in a very real way is Your perception of love. You know, like, people who were abused as kids will think that abuse is love. Like, it's just like well known phenomenon, you know, And I feel like that applies to religion.

Tanner Gilliland [02:58:26] It's endlessly fascinating to me to see what underdeveloped ideas we have culturally, specifically in the church about good and evil that, you know, now I can. I understand that most of the harm done in society is not through conscious intent. It's almost always through unconsciousness. And so, you know, that's why I have compassion for Kwaku or for any of these people who, you know, are doing things that I find abhorrent. Because I can say, you know, what led a person to drop their former identity? What pain were they fleeing that. That they found solace in this group of people who now they get joy from defending belligerently. I don't know what his experiences is, but whatever it is, I can have compassion for whatever drew him to that. In the same way that you were saying that trauma kind of set you up to get sucked into an organization that put a blanket over that. And I can have compassion for that. They aren't able to have that view. You know, everything that we do has to be evil. We have to be intentionally liars. We're like, we're trying to destroy families for money. Even if they're destroying families, I don't think they're trying to. Even if they're lying, I don't think they're trying to lie. And we come across that we're like, do they know that they're making such a bad argument and they just think people are dumb? And it's like, no, I don't think so. I think they just. They don't know. They're trying to do what they can with the tools that they've been given. And all we can do, I think, is, you know, not, you know, we do stoop a little bit to the, to the game. And we have some. I think we have a kind of like, friendly rapport with.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:17] Yeah, I think we try to. I mean, I certainly don't see him

Tanner Gilliland [03:00:20] as an enemy if it's like we're

Samantha Shelley [03:00:22] both entertainers and we generally just try to avoid him because I think we've sort of realized, okay, the. That's. That's what that dynamic is and that we're not interested in engaging with that. But then with these fair Mormon videos, we really saw an opportunity to like, be helpful to the community and to like, young people. Yeah. So that's kind of why we jump back in it's definitely in spite of Kwaku, not because of Kwaku.

Tanner Gilliland [03:00:41] Yeah, he reached out to us a while ago or like years ago about having a formal debate. And I said, listen, I'm not interested in like debating you. I would have a sit down and we could just talk like from a place of authenticity and share our experiences and give space for each other's perspectives. And he was not, he would, would not have that. It was only we will talk about these specific points from these specific angles or nothing.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:05] And then he like posted a bunch of screenshots trying to make us look bad. Because I, I, I feel like I generally try and assume that people have good intent. So when we were chatting, I was like, oh, you'll probably do a way better job preparing for the debate than me. Haha. Like you're just being friendly. And then he like posts that as like trying to catch us out. So it just, it just felt like someone we didn't want to engage with.

Tanner Gilliland [03:01:25] Yeah. So that's been our kind of policy with that sort of thing. And even like talking about Mormonism generally is sometimes kind of difficult because obviously there's other things that we're so much more excited about that the stuff that comes after Mormonism is so much more, infinitely more captivating and exciting.

John Dehlin [03:01:42] Yeah, it's real.

Tanner Gilliland [03:01:43] Yeah, it's real.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:45] But being able to help people get out behind religion is also very real. And that's the draw, isn't it?

Tanner Gilliland [03:01:51] And there's definitely a lot of people reaching out to, to us and saying, hey, can you do this? And yeah, we can, we can do it.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:57] Yeah, we could do it.

Tanner Gilliland [03:01:58] Why not?

Samantha Shelley [03:01:59] And I think that needing to believe that people who have different, like, you know, the fair Mormon crew needing to believe that we all have evil intent and we're all deliberately lying and all those things, I feel like that just betrays insecurity and fear in them. Because even you, again, you being able to say like, I get why John, like, he was just a seeker. Like, I don't know, there's something to that, you know, like there was less fear there. It's like you were able to confront the idea. It's like they can't even confront the idea that we might be acting from good intent. Like instead of being able to be like, no, they're just wrong, which is how we see it. We're like, they're just wrong. But we don't think they have like evil intent. We just think they're trying to do as best they can within like their framework of understanding. But it's like a juvenile view to think that everyone who doesn't believe, like, this is evil and is doing it for bad, like, that's such a childlike view of things.

Tanner Gilliland [03:02:52] And even if, Even if the audience isn't processing that on an intellectual level, there's still a visceral sense that you get when someone is speaking from a place of maliciousness or love. And I think that's the difference. And that will come through. And ultimately, again, why I don't think these videos will meet their desired end.

John Dehlin [03:03:17] The last question I had, and I think this is a good way to kind of get us to, you know, we're about three hours to kind of wrap up this wonderful session, and maybe we need to have a lot more, have you guys back more. But there's a. The other thing that John lynch and. And Scott Gordon are saying is that what they're producing now, these 20 Kwaku cardinalis fair Mormon videos, that's what the young people want. That's what they need. That's their language. That's.

Tanner Gilliland [03:03:48] That's

Samantha Shelley [03:03:50] imagining some Fairmont. Like, that's their language. The kids like memes.

Tanner Gilliland [03:03:55] They love to see other kids in suits. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:57] Nothing says Gen Z like kids in suits.

John Dehlin [03:04:00] No, but I'm going to be vulnerable for a second and kind of get a little serious, even though I prefer humor. But, like, when I first met you guys, it was a little bit of a. It was a little bit of a paradox because on the one hand, you know, I saw a lot of talent, a lot of intelligence, a lot of wisdom, a lot of creativity. But I. I was still, and still am very Mormon, very patriarchal, very old, you know, very stodgy, very conservative. And so, like, well, if you guys were like, struggling or if you guys were experimenting with things that I've always been afraid to experiment with, or if you were and not just, you know, lifestyles or approaches or philosophies, it was very easy for me to go, oh, well, see, I'm worried about them and are they going to be okay? And those poor, Those poor little guys job. I hope they figure it out.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:50] It's just nice to be thought about.

John Dehlin [03:04:52] No, but it's. But there's an arrogance. And this is as old as time. The older generations, they think they're wiser, they think their ways are good. But there's this wisdom emerging about millennials and Gen Gen, you know, Z and whatever of like. No, wait a minute. They're. They have looked at the world that their parents and their grandparents have created, did they have studied it more than their parents or grandparents ever did. They've thought about it more than their parents or grandparents ever did. And they've actually intentionally rejected a lot of the things that we're all looking down our noses. Well, where's your steady six figure job with benefits and where's your traditional family and where's your kids? And you know, where's all this conservative stuff? Whereas in so many instances the, the, the student becomes the master, right? Where, where the, where it turns out the kids are wiser than the adults. Right. And so I'm coming from a place of having been a little bit judgmental or stodgy or looking down my nose a bit with this humility. And now that I've, I have kids your age, right. And my kids are brilliant like you guys and they teach me stuff all the time. Like, like I'm on my knees trying to heal and grow so I can be a better parent to my kids who are way smarter and wiser than me in so many instances. And so I guess I'm kind of handing you a softball. But my impression is there is a real undervaluing or underestimating of Gen Z or millennials in the statement that John lynch and Scott Gordon make that like, this is what, this is the type of discourse that these kids these days want and need.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:40] So there's the softball. Now you guys hit it out of the park.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:43] Well, it's, it's reducing young people to just wanting like memes and jokes and like smash cuts and it's like, no, young people are thinking more critically. They're more concerned about social justice. They're more concerned about like researching things and not just taking what their parents

John Dehlin [03:07:00] say is true authority, believing authority.

Samantha Shelley [03:07:03] I think there is a massive, I mean there's a massive increase in awareness about mental health and self love and yeah. All of the stuff that comes with that, which these videos feel like. So juxtaposing to.

Tanner Gilliland [03:07:20] Yeah. And, and have like growing up with the Internet literally is an expanded consciousness. You, a teenager today can scroll through their phone for 10 minutes and absorb more information than a medieval peasant would in their whole life. If a medieval peasant looked at Twitter for 10 seconds, their head would literally explode. It'd be too much to process. And so, and not just absorbing information, but again, seeing the interconnectedness of these things. Like, oh, I see that the products I'm buying is affecting people in Malaysia. Like what? In ways that our parents never thought about doing my thing. Still though. Yeah. Still though, where does the gas come from? Where, where does the plastic go? Doesn't matter. But kids are worried about that and they're concerned with how their institutions and how them personally are fitting into this global community. And Fair Mormon's attempt seems to be like closing the blinders in. Like we've got it all, okay? We got this little Pandora's box and

Samantha Shelley [03:08:20] it's all good, we can do it.

Tanner Gilliland [03:08:21] That's not what they care about. What they care about is what is the church doing to be a player in this international global stage and how are we being a force for good? How are we actually reaching out in love to people who are different than us? How are we embodying these Christian principles of acceptance and love and compassion like that's what they care about. And again, why this is going to be so detrimental, because it's not speaking to any of that. It's showing how small minded and how truly like lacking in vision Mormonism is, how little it offers the global dialogue. You know, we have a prophet in the last days who can give us all these answers. Okay, cool. Well, we're dealing with catastrophic climate change that's going to affect me for the rest of my life. What is the prophet saying about that?

John Dehlin [03:09:17] We've got police violence, you know.

Tanner Gilliland [03:09:20] Yeah, all these, all these actual issues that are going on and it's like

John Dehlin [03:09:24] democracy at Jeopardy, right?

Tanner Gilliland [03:09:26] Yeah. And then there's no, no substantive commentary on any of this.

John Dehlin [03:09:33] And so, yeah, poverty, hunger, water, you know, national disaster.

Tanner Gilliland [03:09:37] I just think it's a little bit presumptuous for someone, for I don't know how old lynch or any of these people people are, but to presume that they know what younger people want is a little iffy. I don't know, I think a lot of what I saw a thing that the church put out, like some sort of youth gathering where it was all scripted.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:59] I saw that. That wasn't recent though, was it?

Tanner Gilliland [03:10:01] Within the last five, ten years?

John Dehlin [03:10:03] For sure.

Samantha Shelley [03:10:04] In the last ten years? Maybe. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:05] Hey buddy, come on, clap your hands.

Tanner Gilliland [03:10:09] I would walk straight out of there as a Mormon and kids younger than me certainly have no patience. They don't want some, you know, like hyper scripted. It almost is like a parody of a parody. Like when they, you know, when the fair Mormon kids talk, it sounds like brother. It sounds like a Brother Jake video. Like not a problem, like everything's fine. Don't worry about that. We've got all the answers. And it's like you're talking to me like you're not even a real human. Like, how am I supposed to feel, like, comforted when you can't even talk to me like a real human being? It's bizarre. It's bizarre.

Samantha Shelley [03:10:45] It's such a show.

John Dehlin [03:10:48] And, you know, and I love the. This vibe of let's not. Let's not return ad hominem with that homonym. Let's look at them compassionately. I do think it's kind of weird. So just. This is just a little bit of story, but a couple years ago, CNN reached out to me, and it's this guy, Kamau Bell, who's got a series called United Shades of America. America. And he's a. He's a black, you know, American guy. And he goes around the country and has these little episodes where he just spotlights little small towns or, you know, little micro cultures within America. It's great. Well, he comes. He's planning a trip to Salt Lake City, comes to Utah, and he. And he reaches out to me, and he reaches out to Kwaku, and he says, I want to have a. The conversation between Kwaku and John de Lin. This is two years ago. So we meet at a diner, and there's a photo of this on my Facebook page right now of me and Kwaku and Kamau Bell. And. And so we meet at this diner, and I didn't know a lot about Kwaku, so, like, Kwaku's telling Kamau Bell's story, and. And I was like. Quake was like, oh, yeah, I joined the church, like, three or four years ago. And I was like, you've only been a member, like, three or four years. And part of me was, like, really impressed with how much he knew about Mormonism, having been a member for so little time. But then. But then, like, we start getting in a conversation about race, and of course, I'm, like, trying to tread lightly because he's black and I'm white, but I'm trying to talk about how the church has been racist. And so I'm talking about when I was in seminary and when I read Mormon doctrine, what I was taught and how that affected me. And every time I'm telling Kamau Bell the genuine racist Mormon experience that I experience in the Book of Mormon, and it's super racist. You know, Kwaku was like, that's not what the church teaches. That's not what, you know, the church teaches. That's not what people are taught in seminary. And here, Kwaku, you know, I thought, in my mind, you've never been to

Tanner Gilliland [03:12:37] seminary's been a Mormon for, like, 15

John Dehlin [03:12:39] minutes, and I'm 50. And he's telling me, well, I would never go into the African American community and tell them what it was like to be black. But he's. He's been a Mormon for 25 minutes, and he's going to tell me what the Mormon experience is. And it was. And it was really, like, bizarre and. And kind of sad and hurtful, but also like the Twilight Zone and kind of gaslighty. But then it is kind of weird that that fair Mormon has turned to Kwaku and said, write these things as if Quaker really knows us. I mean, he knows some things. He knows. He knows more than me in some areas. But does he really, like, who should be writing these things? It should be people that really know us. Us, not somebody who's been with us for just a couple years. That part was weird to me, you know?

Samantha Shelley [03:13:26] Well, one thing we noticed is, like, they don't even. They said. They've said things in their videos that fair Mormon disputes on its own website. So it doesn't seem like there's that much oversight.

Tanner Gilliland [03:13:36] Yeah, that is weird.

Samantha Shelley [03:13:38] And so I feel like Quake, who's. It's about his brand, and it's like there's not. I mean, can you think of. I can't think of another, like, millennial content creating black Mormon off the top

Tanner Gilliland [03:13:50] of my head or content creating Mormonism of the same. In the same.

Samantha Shelley [03:13:55] Yeah, like, he. It's a. It's a pretty small niche, and he's, like, built a name for himself within that. And so it's like, you know, he's a big fish in a small pond. It makes sense that they would pick him. He's also wanting to do it. Like, I imagine there's not that many people that are gunning to make apologetics videos, because typically, like, I mean, how many young people are getting that into apologetics and staying.

Tanner Gilliland [03:14:18] Yeah, that's the thing is, like, young people don't care about. I were anomalies that we got into it at all. Most people. Most young people are just like, to hell with all of it. You lost it at the very beginning. You didn't even have to go into the cult stuff or death oaths or any. You know, I was out at having to be there every Sunday. I was bored.

Samantha Shelley [03:14:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:40] Yeah. I guess what I'm saying, not to bash Kwaku. It's just the videos aren't Mormon. No. They're just not Mormon.

Samantha Shelley [03:14:46] No.

Tanner Gilliland [03:14:47] They're polarizing. And I think that It'll do its job like any polarizing figure. It will bring some people out of the woodwork, the people who are already converted, the people who weren't gonna get out of it anyway, whose idea identity is far too staked in it for them to ever want to venture out. And for those people, it'll get them more hyped and maybe more radicalized, however radical you get in the Mormon apologetic community. But for the vast majority, I don't think it's going to capture or generate interest, let alone sympathy.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:23] My anxiety was never higher than when I was reading apologetics. I felt like I was on the verge of a breakdown. Like I had my first panic attack in that time period. I got very scared of like psychosis in a way. Like I was very scared of demons. And it just sent my anxiety through the roof because I think the cognitive dissonance is so intense. Even if you're, I don't know, you can, depending on how desperate you are to cling to your Mormon identity, which is like obviously very desperate in most cases like that, that you can survive it for a while. But like, how much pain can someone bear or like how much, how long can someone bear cognitive dissonance for? I don't know. It's unhealthy, different per person. But yeah, it is unhealthy.

What Could the Church Do Differently for Young People

John Dehlin [03:16:08] So I'll ask you guys to do something that you may or may not want to do, or maybe you'll think it's fun. If the Church came to you and said, here's a hundred grand, how do we keep young people? What would you advise the Church's consultants to do? How do they keep, you know, 20 somethings teens? If Kwaku's brand, if fair Mormons videos aren't the way to do it, what can the Church do to keep from hemorrhaging its. Its young people?

Samantha Shelley [03:16:31] Love your neighbor. Get rid of everything else.

Tanner Gilliland [03:16:34] Pretty much, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:36] Then do you need Mormonism for that?

Samantha Shelley [03:16:37] Nope. But you can make use of the organization and you know, it's the Ward and Stake and all those systems are useful if you could mobilize Mormons to do good in the world and to, you know, don't spend three out two hours now on Sunday listening to about Joseph Smith, like go out and. And do something.

Tanner Gilliland [03:16:57] Yeah. Unfortunately all the changes we'd recommend would like, absolutely disintegrate.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:03] Yeah. Render it obsolete.

Tanner Gilliland [03:17:05] Yeah, totally. But yeah, that type of thing, like stop sending mission proselytizing missions, like do service missions, at least make that an option.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:16] But actual service.

Tanner Gilliland [03:17:17] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:18] Not this idea.

John Dehlin [03:17:19] English, to then move them into it.

Tanner Gilliland [03:17:22] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:17:23] The discussions,

Tanner Gilliland [03:17:25] that type of thing. I mean, they would have to. They'd have to. Some of the truth claims would just have to go. They would have to let the Book of Mormon slide as like. Like the community of Christ has done. Like, this is a founding document. We don't have to take it as literal if we don't want to. I actually think they'll go that way eventually. I think they're. I think they're setting the stage to eventually say. We've always said it like this because they can draw from little things here.

John Dehlin [03:17:48] It's about the spiritual nature of the book. Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [03:17:51] Even Oaks recently said something to that effect. And I was like, ah, he's on to it, so that'll be a change. The deference to profit and to authority generally. That's never been a message that resonates with young people, at least not since the 60s or 50s.

John Dehlin [03:18:07] We bought it. Our generation bought it.

Samantha Shelley [03:18:10] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [03:18:11] Mormons, I guess. But now it's. There's just. It's. There's too much information and too much chaos of information.

John Dehlin [03:18:17] I didn't have Google. No, I'd had Google would be a different story.

Tanner Gilliland [03:18:20] Totally. I mean, that's why we're stories.

John Dehlin [03:18:22] It'd be a different story.

Tanner Gilliland [03:18:23] Totally. Totally. Yeah. And we did. And that's why we're out. So. Yeah, a lot of. A lot of that stuff would just have to go. A lot of the literalism. They'd have to basically just be the community of Christ. And even then the community of Christ, I don't think is like, has a super robust young, young population.

John Dehlin [03:18:40] And then there's stuff for women. Right. The way women are treated.

Samantha Shelley [03:18:43] Yeah, it. Yeah, it doesn't really feel like you could turn it around because I was gonna say maybe there's a way you can sort of acknowledge the church's history and be like, yeah, this was never really true. But, like, we can still, like, honor the stories of our ancestors and, like, you know, nothing's truly good or bad. And, like, maybe take the good, leave the bad. But then I'm like, why do young people. Why would they want to show up every week? Why would they want to keep your tithing? Video made me realize, oh, they've really hammered home tithing. And that's got to be for, like, there's no way. They're all just saying, you gotta pay tithing purely from, like, a spiritual perspective. There has to be something. You know, they have to be talking about how, like, we need to get everyone to be paying tithing because we have to meet these business goals.

Tanner Gilliland [03:19:26] It is a, it's a money making venture and so you always have to have those. That whole system in place when pure religion undefiled would just be a sincere desire to help others, to connect with the transcendent on your own personal level and then coming together with people who shared that intention to do things like that together. And you don't need all these committees and you don't need all the buildings and you don't need the white shirts and ties and the dresses, but without all that stuff, you don't make the money.

John Dehlin [03:20:02] So. So they can't just give women the priesthood and accept LGBT people. And you guys are right back in it.

Samantha Shelley [03:20:07] You'd have to get rid of the priesthood.

Tanner Gilliland [03:20:09] Come on.

Samantha Shelley [03:20:10] Swap it out with like some kind of grief ritual or something.

Tanner Gilliland [03:20:14] Yeah, people.

John Dehlin [03:20:15] People.

Tanner Gilliland [03:20:16] Yeah. People ask us pretty frequently, like, would you come back if for just the community or whatever. And I'm like, no, that is just the most stale. So, yeah, none of it feels real. It just doesn't feel real.

Samantha Shelley [03:20:31] But when you're in it and you can't really conceive of community outside of that. I get why people like, it's all that's real.

Tanner Gilliland [03:20:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:38] Nothing else is real when you're in it.

Samantha Shelley [03:20:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:40] Right?

Tanner Gilliland [03:20:41] Yeah. It's weird. It's weird looking back and knowing that I have. Most of my roommates are not. Don't have a Mormon background, which is interesting living in Utah because like everybody here is ex Mormon. Mormon. And we've been watching a lot of cult documentaries together. And people like, how can they believe? Like, how can they be stuck in that? I'm like, you don't get it. Like I was in that. And you can get high on that. That's the thing too is like, I don't know, you're like most high moments as a Mormon, you're like in God mode. And it's power. It's powerful stuff. It also comes with a really, really heavy withdrawal. Yeah, withdrawal and crash. Yeah, crash. That's the word I'm looking for.

John Dehlin [03:21:20] Yeah. Well, I could talk to you guys forever. So. So check these. Awesome. I'm going to give them a chance to give closing comments so you guys can be gathering your final thoughts. But I'm going to do the shameless Plug Zel on the Shelf YouTube channel. Click like, follow, subscribe, share it with everybody. You can donate to them at PayPal or at Venmo and join on Patreon. You can Buy their merch, buy their shirts by Tanner's paintings, check out Samantha's music on Spotify, all those good things. Let's have a closing wrap up statement by both of you. We'll have Tanner go first and then we'll end with the bang with, with Samantha and I'll just. You guys gave me a funny look.

Samantha Shelley [03:22:13] Is that a benevolent sexism?

John Dehlin [03:22:19] Yeah. But I just want to say I adore you guys. I think of you as dear friends and even family in a way. I'm so, I don't want to sound paternalistic, but please sound paternalistic. I'm so proud of what you guys have done and you were like years ahead of me. Like I'm just now trying to figure out YouTube and realizing the importance of that media. You guys have been doing it forever and doing it so well and I think your, your future is even brighter than what you've done. So hats off to you. I adore you guys. I, I, I am not worthy. I'm, I am just in awe of your talents and I wish you guys the best and I want everyone to support you because you deserve support. Having said all that closing statements, we'll begin with you, Tanner.

Gratitude, Reflections, and Farewell

Tanner Gilliland [03:23:08] Just want to first of all, thank you, John, for all the support over the years. I feel like you really helped us get on the map in the beginning and have always been so supportive of us both as a collective enterprise and individually. You've been a really good friend. So thank you so much. And a closing statement. Gee, I don't know. I just, I feel a lot of gratitude to be where I am, to have the experiences that I've had. I feel like I'm, I kind of said this when we were talking earlier. I felt like I got what I was looking for in, in Mormonism. I was, I feel like a true spiritual seeker and I was always seeking a Mormonism and I feel like ever since then I've been a finder and I just keep finding and finding and finding and my joy increases. And not to say that I'm just like I said, 10 out of 10 every day. Just, it's not like that at all. It's just a personal content with life and feeling at peace with who I am and my placement in the world and feeling so grateful for the experiences that I get to have and for Mormonism shaping that experience. And a lot of gratitude for all the people who have been so supportive of us. Supportive of you because that's also been part of our support as well. It really does take collective effort Takes a village to raise a child. And we're all children raising to the grave. So we need each other. And if there's any way that we can be helpful to the people who watch our stuff, we'd love to hear people's ideas and help where we can.

John Dehlin [03:24:51] Beautiful.

Samantha Shelley [03:24:52] Yeah. Amen to everything, Tana said. I don't know that I have anything else to say, except for there have been various times over the years where I've kind of wanted to take a step back from making X Mormon content. And then I always get pulled back in and, like, reminded of why I care so much. Because sometimes being a convert, there's, like, a sense of, you know, I wasn't born in this, so I. What? Why am I still. You know, there's like. I think there was a sense of shame, you know, for joining, and it's complex, but. But it's just been, like, a really amazing experience to be a part of a community of people who are transcending these limiting beliefs about who they are and what life should be and what's possible for them. There's so many beautiful people in this community. Yeah, I guess. Like, I just want to say that I'll keep trying to, like, contribute however I can. And, John, you're amazing, and thank you for everything you've done. And I Love your new YouTube series. Yeah. And everyone who talks about you is dead to me.

John Dehlin [03:26:09] You have to mention your cats and

Samantha Shelley [03:26:11] shout out to Bernie and Banksy. I know you guys are watching this.

Tanner Gilliland [03:26:13] We couldn't do this without you.

Samantha Shelley [03:26:14] Perfect angels shut the up at night.

John Dehlin [03:26:16] Night.

Tanner Gilliland [03:26:17] Now get to bed.

John Dehlin [03:26:20] Beautiful. All right, well, I'm not gonna end by saying donate to Mormon Stories. I'm gonna end by saying give these guys your money. They deserve it. If you don't like fair Mormons videos or if you like Mormon Stories, donate to Zelf on the Shelf because they're reaching Gen Z, Gen Y. Millennials better than anybody. And, you know, these are people that need to be reached and they're doing amazing work. So support them. Do it for me. Do it for them. Do it for humanity. Do it for Banksy. Do it for Clickbait. God bless his rehearsal. Do it for all those reasons. And thanks for joining us. This has been amazing. You guys are awesome. Stay in touch and we'll see you guys again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories. Take care, everybody. Thanks, guys.

Samantha Shelley [03:27:12] Thank you.

Tanner Gilliland [03:27:13] My heart feels warm.

Samantha Shelley [03:27:14] It got so warm and fuzzy at the end.

Tanner Gilliland [03:27:19] How fun to be back on Mormon Stories.

Samantha Shelley [03:27:21] Three hours. It just blink of an eye presents.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.