Introduction to Wayne Sermon and Alexandra Hall

Part 1 of 5 · Ep. 1181

Wayne Sermon [00:00:25] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. And today is a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast because we are recording today from sunny Las Vegas, Nevada. It is September 20, 2019, and we are so incredibly excited. This is an interview I've been waiting for for many, many years, probably four years. We are here to interview Wayne Sermon. Wayne is the lead guitarist for Imagine Dragons. He's a musician. Accomplished musician. Accomplished musician. And we're here to interview Alexandra hall, who is married to Wayne. And she, in her own right, is an accomplished dancer, ballerina, and mother of three, which, again, is its own accomplishment in many epic ways. And mostly I'm just delighted to be interviewing some wonderful humans. And that's always what I care about most, is sharing the stories of thoughtful, caring people. And so that's what we're doing today.

Wayne Sermon [00:01:36] You know, you don't know that, John. We'll find out.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] Is it premature? Is it premature?

Wayne Sermon [00:01:40] Yeah, we'll find out.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] We'll see. We'll see. Thank you for that. Really quickly, part, part of what I'm excited about this interview, a very small part, but an important part, is that many of you who are paying attention or on social media will know that we are planning a Thrive conference in November, November 17, in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Motivations for Sharing Their Story

John Dehlin [00:02:04] This is a conference that's really important. There's a lot of, you know, when people are struggling with the church or leave the church, there can be a lot of negativity or frustration. We, we explore that on Mormon Stories. Thrive is all about helping people who are not orthodox Mormon who are struggling or who have left, just find healing and joy and community. And so we're having a full day, November 17, where we're going to have some of the best speakers we can find, including Wayne Sermon. Just talk about different perspectives on, on how to heal and grow and find community and thrive, you know, after you leave Mormon orthodoxy and, or the church.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] And so Wayne's going to be speaking or keynoting at that event along with Amber Skora, who is the author of the book Leaving the Witness ex Jehovah's Witness, Amazing human from New York. And we're going to have a lot, a fantastic lineup of other speakers, again, all positive, all dedicated towards healing and growth. And so you can go to thrivebeyondmormonism.com to register. We're operating it as a loss. There's no money that's going to be made here. As far as we know. We're charging 15 bucks for the entire day. And there's probably no chance we're going to make our money back.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Just the facilities and the screen and the projector is going to cost 20 or 30 grand. So, anyway, check out thrivebeyondmormonism.com and we'd love to have you. And we're just so excited that, Wayne, you're coming on Mormon Stories along with Alex and that you're willing to share your story. So thanks, guys.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:36] Thanks for having us, John.

Alex Sermon [00:03:37] Yes, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Are you guys nervous? Are you nervous?

Alex Sermon [00:03:40] For sure?

John Dehlin [00:03:40] A little bit.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:42] I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:03:43] Well, lucky guy.

John Dehlin [00:03:47] And I love that we've got this kind of Joe Rogan vibe going on where we're sitting around a table with. Yes.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:51] Thanks for indulging me on that.

Alex Sermon [00:03:52] Yeah, we wanted to, like, hide behind something.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:55] Well, that's the thing is, like, I am so much more comfortable behind something like this.

Alex Sermon [00:03:59] Like a guitar?

Wayne Sermon [00:04:00] Yeah, like a guitar or mic. So this is like, you know, right up my alley. I do watch Joe Rogan, so this is, you know, fulfilling a dream for me.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] But it's a great setup. I've got a good mic. You've got good mics?

Wayne Sermon [00:04:10] Yeah. No, you know, obviously, Alex has the best mic. This is a Neumann, everyone, in case anyone doubted my love for my wife, you know, same mic Dan sings on all of our songs.

Alex Sermon [00:04:21] So I'm honored.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:23] No, thanks for having us, John. You know, obviously, I've been a fan of the podcast for a long time, long time listener, first time attendee. We've both been the very engaged in the discussion, listened to a lot of your podcasts and been contemplating sort of our role in it. And I'm a very private person generally, and I kind of see myself as maybe a little bit of a yin to Dan's yang as far as, you know, personality and character. And he, you know, thrives under that attention and, you know, does really well with it. And I kind of like to be more in the background, and it's just.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:02] I think it's just part of who I am as a person. But obviously with him doing love loud and how, you know, vocal he's been about certain issues in the church. You know, obviously I've been. I've played them and I've showed support that way, but I've sort of been silent other than that, you know, in those ways. So I don't know, for me, at least for me, like, my own silence became sort of deafening, at least, like in my own ears. And so I figure if, you know, I can be slightly uncomfortable for a couple hours and because, you Know, while there is probably a self serving side to me doing this and being part of it, you know, I think, I hope that my real aim here is to, to help other people because I know what it feels like to have sort of your foundation or like your view of the world that you thought was so solid, to have, have that kind of pulled from under you and then, you know, I'm here.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:01] I, I guess just to show it doesn't really matter what walk of life you come from, who you are, how successful you are, what the world thinks of you. It hits everyone the same when this stuff happens. So more than anything, I just want to be a shoulder to lean on for people that, you know, because I know that when my wife and I were going through this, at least we had each other, but man, did we, we feel alone, you know, Isn't that amazing?

John Dehlin [00:06:23] You can feel alone when you've got a lot of people, you know? Right, Yeah. A lot of people you could theoretically turn to.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:30] Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] If you guys can feel alone.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:32] Yeah, right, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:35] I think it's kind of funny too. Like, we have really good friends of ours that were, you know, that we assumed were super Mormon and that Brittany. And they don't care if we mention them. It's Brittany and Andrew Tolman. And like you mentioned, like, you know, your circle comes. It's like you have this huge circle in the church. Right. This huge family circle. And then when this thing, this transition happens, your circle becomes very small and you feel like it's like, it's almost like, who can you talk to? So Brittany and Andrew were going to like the exact same thing we were going through. And we were like dear friends with them and we didn't communicate at all about it. We had no idea that they were listening to Mormon stories or anything.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] You were both going through it at the same simultaneously and afraid to tell each other as best friends.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:19] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:07:19] Like, why infringe on someone's fragile testimony

John Dehlin [00:07:22] when you're struggling with something that's compassionate, but then you can't even turn to your own dear friends.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:27] Yeah. And, and even like, you know, I, I want to be careful with how I speak about, you know, Dan's. He has his own view about church and everything. So I want to be mindful of that. But even him, him as well. Like, he, I finally talked to Dan about it too, and he was like, yeah, yeah, I remember listening to that too. It's like, how are we not talking about this stuff?

Alex Sermon [00:07:46] Like, see each other every day.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:47] And it's like there is just sort of a shame about, like, you know, if you look into church history, if you, if you go down this path that you're just sort of programmed to feel shame. Like it's like hardwired into your brain that if you go down a certain path that you should feel secretive and just a little bit shy about it. So I thought that was kind of funny, but that happened.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] So as we're talking about motives, you mentioned wanting people not to feel like they're crazy, not to feel like they're alone, to know that you can be a resource for them. There's all. And this is just so people can understand why, because we have a mutual friend that I had breakfast with today and we talked about why. And you know, there are risks. You don't want to hurt your loved ones as someone in business and, and it is a business, you know, there are always like fears or risks around, like, how could this impact that? And so it's, it's kind of an act of courage that it sometimes even defies logic or reason.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:43] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] You mentioned the altruism of trying to help people, but also what's it. And we'll get into this, but isn't there also something harmful about staying quiet and kind of inauthentic and kind of packing it down and being in the closet?

Wayne Sermon [00:08:59] Yeah, I think so. It's definitely been wearing on both of us. And that. I think that's why I want to come to this podcast in particular, like, specifically because, I mean, I love the podcast medium in general. I think that it's like a bastion of sanity in the world. Yeah, it's like, I feel like traditional, traditional media has completely failed us in that it's completely underestimated people's attention span and willing willingness for people just to like, listen to a conversation of two people or three people and just, you know, long form conversations. And I. And it's like Facebook has devolved into a cesspool. Twitter. What can you say in 20, 100 characters that's meaningful?

Wayne Sermon [00:09:38] So no room for nuance in any of that. And so I just love podcasts, but also this podcast in general, because I feel like your audience is somewhere, you know, I don't. Whatever reach I might have through the band, I can't necessarily control. But as far as your listeners, they run the gamut. It's not like there's this huge anti Mormon mob that's out to get anybody.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] We have active bishops that communicate with me directly and say, hey, I'm a bishop, but I love Mormon stories.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:03] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:10:04] It's wild.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:04] Yeah, it's wild, but it's. It's perfect. And that's, you know, you cover the whole spectrum of the faith, Mormon faith, and faith in general. So that's why we both felt like this was the right moves, because it's not, you know, it's. It's broadcasting to the people. People that are ready to hear it, or at least open to hearing it.

Alex Sermon [00:10:20] They're on the fringe.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] Well, I'm honored. I'm really honored, genuinely. So thank you.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:26] Yeah, thank you. And just, you know, one more button. Sorry to. No, this can be much more conversational, but I just. I. I want to be really clear just from the outset, we. This. I can speak for both of us that we are not here. What we're not here for is to convince anyone of our position.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] Yep.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:41] We are not here to try and lead anyone into any way of thinking. Um, like you said, I. You know, a lot of our fans are religious people, and on top of that, a lot of the fans we have in Utah and the surrounding areas are.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:54] Are Mormon, and so I respect them. You know, if anyone happens to be in that category, I love you, and I don't judge you at all. And it's not about attacking. And you've mentioned on your podcast, I. Maybe the first time I heard it was when you said it was that when. When you attack someone's personal beliefs, it really isn't any different than. It doesn't feel any different than you attacking them physically. Like, the same fight or flight responses kick in, your heart rate increases, your breath shallows. You know, your IQ drops 15 points, you know, and so you feel like you're being attacked, and so you're never at your best when that happens.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:30] And I've been in that position. I know. I know what that feels like. So to anyone, you know, out there that if there's something that they don't agree with, just know that I have a particular advantage of being on both sides of this. I've been there. I understand what that feels like to feel like you're being attacked, but I also, you know, have to be authentic to myself. So that's. That's pretty much all I have to say, is a precursor, and then we can have fun.

Alex Sermon [00:11:55] I'm feeling attacked right now.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:58] This is why I brought Alex on,

John Dehlin [00:12:00] because she's Alex, a comic relief.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:01] She is the comic relief. I. I tend to. I get too serious.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] She's the Robin. Is she the Robin Givens? Is that who it is? Howard Stern, who's Who?

Alex Sermon [00:12:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Yeah, Robin. Yeah. It's been a while since I've listened to Howard Stern. Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:11] It is robbing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:13] And I. I. I'll go on the record and just say, I love Mormonism. I love the Mormon Church. I want it to thrive. I just want it to be its best self. I want there to be less pain, more joy. If you believe in the church, I celebrate you. I celebrate your beliefs. We just need to find a way to do this where less people get hurt and more people reach their potential. That's it.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:33] So amen.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] That's my agenda. Great. So stay Mormon. Those of you who are Mormons, stay Mormon. We're not here to change that. We're just here to tell real stories.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:41] Absolutely. And it's funny you mentioned that, because, like, I. For a long time, when you first find out about this stuff, it's like you have these fantasies about, like, oh, man, if only my family knew all the stuff I knew. If only I could get them to believe what I believe, then I'd really be happy, and I. You know, we could all go for a drink together, and it'd be great. And, like, as time goes on, I just. I don't. I care less and less about someone having to agree with my opinion. I just, like, I just want them to be them.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:06] I have no issue with them. Like, I just want them to be happy. If. If Mormonism works for them, then bingo.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:13] That's all I need.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] Absolutely. Well, let's start with this.

Wayne's Childhood and Upbringing

Wayne Sermon [00:13:15] Maybe.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Wayne, do you want to start with your story, then, or.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:17] My story?

John Dehlin [00:13:18] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:20] I was born and raised on a sunny afternoon, an American fork at 3:15American forks. American Fork.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Born and raised, pioneer ancestry, all that.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:29] Yes. I had a great, great Grammy. Greats are there great, great, great grammar that crossed the plains in the Martin handcart company.

Alex Sermon [00:13:36] Heard of it?

Wayne Sermon [00:13:38] Heard of that. Talk about heritage, John.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:43] So, yeah, born and raised in Utah. Had it. Honestly, had an awesome upbringing. I loved where I was from. I loved. I love American Fork. I love. You know, it's like, for those who

John Dehlin [00:13:53] don't know, where's American Fork?

Wayne Sermon [00:13:54] It's in Utah. Pretty much smack.

Alex Sermon [00:13:55] That county.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] Yep.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:57] Utah County.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] Smack dab between Provo and, like, Alpine. Highland. Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:00] Right there in the middle of Happy Valley, just north of Pleasant Grove. Is that right north of Peach? Yep.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] North, south of Lehigh. Where is it?

Wayne Sermon [00:14:07] Yeah, just south, south of Lehigh. Yep, exactly. So how I describe it is if anyone's ever seen the movie Sandlot.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] Yeah. Yeah, that's.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:16] That's. That's classic. That's pretty much my upbringing. It's, you know, minus the. The lifeguard, minus the left. No oiling and lotioning. What's happening? No giant dark. No being chased by.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] But what is it about sandlot that reminds you just like the feel of

Wayne Sermon [00:14:28] it, you know, like hopping fences, playing football with your neighbors. You know, everyone. Everyone knows each other. There's this friendly atmosphere. You leave your car unlocked and it doesn't matter. You know, there's no chance in hell that not anything is gonna happen to your car.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:41] You leave your garage open, you leave your doors open.

Alex Sermon [00:14:44] It still happens in America.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:45] It still happens.

Alex Sermon [00:14:46] And it confuses me.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:47] My parents leave the keys in the ignition to this day.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:14:50] And their address is.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:51] I mean, it's like, great. You know, you're all. Your neighbors. It's like you're friendly with all. It's like a really great way to. To. To be raised. So I had a wonderful upbringing, and I. You know, it's like, as far as spiritually, it's kind of. It's like everything's figured out for you. You have a. You know, we're all the same thing here. And it's. You know, so I would describe as maybe a little vanilla, but the good kind of vanilla that has the little black bits in it, you know, Vanilla

John Dehlin [00:15:16] beans, the little yellow bean.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:18] Yeah, it's like. It's like the good vanilla, you know, it's delicious vanilla. Yeah, it's a classy vanilla. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] So your favorite things as a kid were what?

Wayne Sermon [00:15:25] Oh, just hanging. Being a kid. Just, you know, pretty typical music as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] Did you start?

Wayne Sermon [00:15:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were. I was from a very musical family. We fashioned ourselves as a bit of an Osmond, really. The Osmonds of Utah? No, not really, but we were. We did have a family band. Everyone played instruments.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] What was it called?

Wayne Sermon [00:15:46] The Sermon Family Band.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Very creative. How did your parents get into music? Were they.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:51] My mom was a really accomplished piano player, and my dad. I mean, basically the best way to describe my. I'm basically living the. The dream of my father as far as the band and everything. He was. That's what he wanted to do with his life more than anything. He still. He loves music. He makes music of his own. He's a composer and a. An artist. And.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Who were his biggest musical influences?

Wayne Sermon [00:16:15] Are you kidding me?

John Dehlin [00:16:15] That's my favorite band.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:17] Like, so did he.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] How. How would he have grown up after the Beatles, during the Beatles?

Wayne Sermon [00:16:21] He was born in 53.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] Okay. So he would have.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:24] He Signed. He saw Ed Sullivan.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] So he'd have been 11 when Ed Sullivan happened.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:27] Yep, he was.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] And then he would have rode his. His adolescence would have been the Beatles career.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] I mean, he would become an adult when the Beatles broke up.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] That's amazing. So, like, he saw Ed Sullivan. He saw the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. He remembers.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:40] Oh, absolutely. As far as, like, growing up, I don't ever remember a time not knowing what the Beatles were like. There's never a moment where it's like, what's the Beatles like? Since I was. My first memories were listening to vinyl records.

Alex Sermon [00:16:51] Actually, the first time I met his dad, he pretended like I didn't know who the Beatles were. His dad was like.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] As a way to mess with your dad's mind.

Alex Sermon [00:16:59] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Okay. Which. So I grew up playing Beatles LPs too. I'm way older than you. But I. But did. Which of your favorite Beatles albums, like, really stuck out for your childhood? Oh, do you remember?

Wayne Sermon [00:17:12] Don't do it.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] No. Too hard.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:13] Too hard.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] Not help. It's not help. It's not Rubber Soul.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:17] I mean, Rubber Soul, Abbey Road, and obviously sergeant Peppers.

Alex Sermon [00:17:21] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:22] Are the ones that.

Alex Sermon [00:17:23] Something is our song that we dance to at our wedding.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] That's George. Right?

Wayne Sermon [00:17:27] And that's George.

John Dehlin [00:17:27] That's what you dance to at your wedding. Margi and I dance to a Beatles song at our wedding.

Alex Sermon [00:17:31] Oh, nice, Nice.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:32] Which one?

John Dehlin [00:17:34] In my life.

Alex Sermon [00:17:35] Oh, great one.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:36] Such a good one.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:17:37] Really?

John Dehlin [00:17:37] I think it's either if I fell or in my life, but I'm pretty sure it's in my life.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:40] That's. That's. That's a tearjerker.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:43] That's awesome. I mean, and that was my introduction to music. Really is like listening to really good vinyl on a really good, like audiophile grade.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:49] Record player that my dad had.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Morantz or what. What type of. Do you remember the brand of the pioneer. Pioneer.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:54] Like a high end pioneer? I think so.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] I. I think Abbey Road's my favorite Beatles album.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Is that.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:00] I think it's fine.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] You can't pick.

Alex Sermon [00:18:01] I think it's fine. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] You like Abbey Road?

Alex Sermon [00:18:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:04] So did you grow up listening to Beatles?

Alex Sermon [00:18:05] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Right. Really?

Alex Sermon [00:18:06] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] That's not everybody.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] Really?

Alex Sermon [00:18:08] Yeah, it should be.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] So you like Abby Road?

Alex Sermon [00:18:11] I. I mean, I love them all.

John Dehlin [00:18:13] Oh, darling. It's.

Alex Sermon [00:18:14] That's right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] It's hard to get better than oh, darling.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:17] Yeah. I mean, that's. You f. Like, nothing sounds better than vinyl. Even. Even to me.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] I just heard that vinyl Is. Is starting out cel cd.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:26] Yes, it is.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Like, it's. It's about to cross a threshold where more vinyl sold than C. Yeah, it's wild.

Alex Sermon [00:18:32] Makes me happy.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] Okay, so high beat, high Beatles influence.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Music, Musical family. So were you guys performing everywhere?

Wayne Sermon [00:18:42] Like, we did, like. Yeah, we had performances now and then

Alex Sermon [00:18:44] we tell them about Christmas kids.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:46] Christmas kids was a thing to all my fellow Christmas kids who might be watching. What up?

John Dehlin [00:18:53] What was that?

Wayne Sermon [00:18:54] It was basically all the neighborhood kids got together. Well, the parents had something to do with it. They all got together and. And we basically toured around Utah and played. Had a whole program to our program.

Alex Sermon [00:19:08] Matching sweaters.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:10] I think we even had some pain gigs by the end of it, you know.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] For how many years?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:13] Oh, probably. I don't know. How long did it happen? Five or six years.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] This is a thing now. Would you remember this?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:18] No.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] You were in California.

Alex Sermon [00:19:19] No, but it's my favorite story.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] Oh, okay. What do you love about this?

Alex Sermon [00:19:22] I mean, I just love the idea of these kids. Kids being wrangled by. I mean, they're not really stage moms, but, you know, getting their sweaters on, organizing the shows.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:32] Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:19:32] Singing your tunes.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:34] It was. We were quite something. We were quite a spectacle.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] How many siblings?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:38] I have four siblings. Three older, one younger.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:41] And, yeah, it's like, you know, very typical. I don't know. Typical. That's a dumb word. Very. I don't know, Quintessential. The quintessential Mormon family. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:52] Just, you know, it was like. I don't know how to describe.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Were the Osmonds an influence?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:59] I mean, no, not really, but it's like we were the. We were the kind of family that's like, you know, the sermon family. Solid. Like, this is a very. Like, with good kids. Good kids, you know, great parents with very much with the program. Great. You know, it's like very strong. You know, your quintessential kind of strong Mormon family.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] So in terms of like, family home, evening scripture study, family prayer, was that all. I mean, nobody's perfect, but, like, was that all part of your upbringing?

Wayne Sermon [00:20:26] Yeah, like, you know, not every single Sunday, but yeah. I mean, not every single Monday, but yeah, it was. We were that kind of family. You know, you do. You go to your priesthood class, you know, you go to your. Your youth activities every week and go to service projects. You do every.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] You do all of it, and you were into it.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:45] Yeah. Yeah.

Early Faith and Primary Memories

John Dehlin [00:20:46] Did you have a favorite primary song? I always asked that.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:49] I have a least favorite one. I don't have a favorite one for some reason. I just. I don't. How did that ever happen? It's like this minor key. Weird. Like Halloween. It's like, how'd that ever get into the canon of primary songs?

John Dehlin [00:21:06] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:07] But no favorites. No, I don't. You know, I don't know. I just. It was very typical. I was. You know, I. Maybe I was a little more skeptical than the rest of my siblings, but I don't know if that's even fair to say. I don't know if that's even true.

Alex Sermon [00:21:19] It's not like you would talk about it, so you wouldn't really.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:20] Yeah, there was, like. And. And there's. There's, like, little things. I would say there's little things I noticed in the church when I was young that I. It's like the things.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:31] Like, that's interesting. And I remember the first one. It was a while until I had this. But I feel like I'm hogging the microphone. Maybe we can talk about your upbringing, too, after this, but. Gross now, but. So maybe I'll just say this and then you can. You can have a go. But I remember the first thing that happened to me, where I was, when I went was efy. So you're like 12, 13.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] How old were you?

Wayne Sermon [00:21:55] Yeah, probably 12, 13. And it's.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] I did. I did the. I'm from Texas, but I did the BYU EFY once.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:01] Happy.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Yeah, yeah. With like, Jack Christensen and. Yeah. Yeah. John, by the way. Oh, my gosh.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:06] These names.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] Right?

Wayne Sermon [00:22:07] I've heard these names in a while. Y. Um.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] So I know what you're talking about. That's why. That's the. Yes.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:13] So my parents made me go. I didn't want to go. And it's nothing against them at all. You know, it's like. I don't know, like, as a parent now, I don't know what I would force my kids to do, not to do.

Alex Sermon [00:22:24] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:24] It's like. I don't know where that line is.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Anyway.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:26] Yeah, I'll find out. But. So I didn't want to go. I went, and I just really. I had to go for, like, three or four years, and I just really, really disliked it. And for those listening that don't know what EFY is, it's especially for youth. It's basically an inordinate amount of children. And I always do say children.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:46] Descend upon BYU campus and I guess wreak havoc.

John Dehlin [00:22:52] No, it's inspirational speakers, Right?

Alex Sermon [00:22:53] Oh, that way. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] It's like inspirational speakers wreak Spiritual havoc.

Alex Sermon [00:22:57] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:58] On the devil.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] Trying to create very emotional sl. Spiritual experiences so that the kids testimonies get really locked down solid.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:07] Yes.

Alex Sermon [00:23:07] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:08] And yeah, it's like, keep kids out of trouble. Yes. I would describe as sort of like this Christian camp type thing. It's kind of similar to that. It's like, you know, counselors are smiley and young and full of enthusiasm and isn't Jesus great?

John Dehlin [00:23:21] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:22] And it just wasn't my personality. There's something that was very conflicting about that, you know, And I. I remember just like looking over to people, looking to my left, looking to my right, and just saying, I don't think I belong here.

John Dehlin [00:23:34] Oh.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:35] You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:23:36] Because the inauthenticity of it was.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:39] I can't judge, you know? No, I don't know. I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Yeah. Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:43] For them showing this, maybe like, for

John Dehlin [00:23:45] them, like, here, like, not to judge, just.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] Say what you were feeling.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:49] Oh, right, Gotcha. I just felt like the soup du jour was. Was always. Where is the line between emotionality and spirituality? And I look over to people crying and I just would think like, okay. Even at that young age, I was like, all right, so how much of this is emotion and how much of this is spirituality? And how do I tell. How can I. How to. For that for myself? Because I just wasn't feeling that. I just wasn't that kind of person. And so I remember, I think the second year I had to go, I. I said, you know what? That's it. I'm. I'm figuring this thing out. And so I ditched a couple classes, which, you know, it's not in the sermon pedigree.

Alex Sermon [00:24:30] No sermons don't do that.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Don't do that.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:33] So I skipped, but only to do something more righteous. So it's fine.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] You went to the temple?

Wayne Sermon [00:24:37] No, I went to. I stayed in the dorm room where, you know, you kind of stay with the roommate in the storm. And so he was gone. And I just. I just sat nailed on my. And knelt on my knees and just prayed. I prayed for at least an hour. Could have been more than that. I don't remember. Just for some confirmation of any kind to know if this church was true. Because if I got that confirmation, man, I was all in. I really was. I was all in on the church. Gung ho, died in wool Mormon My whole life. I was ready for that.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:09] And I just remember, you know, I would pray for, you know, was Joseph Smith a prophet? Was the Book of Mormon true? You know, our prophets Real is revelation real. I would just go down the line and I just, you know, wanted an answer to that. And what I felt was absolutely nothing.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:28] Nothing. And you know, I would take anything, I would take a burn in the bosom or some, some sort of thing that wasn't like I wouldn't confuse with my own emotion. And I just remember feeling like, man, like I just don't have an answer to this. And so at that point I thought, you know, it was still maybe, maybe it was my fault and maybe I should. The time wasn't right. It's not like I was like out of the church at all. I was still super in and super devoted to it. It's just, you know, it have been nice to get that little confirmation and one, just one other little chink in the armor like this that I can remember.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:01] And this, by the way, this is like, there's like a ton of like, you know, I was very much with the pro. I don't want to make it sound like I had like all these doubts, but these were just little things looking back that I think.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:09] Interesting. Yeah, was, I remember I was 14 and in priesthood class, which is what you do after you go to the hour long session of the congregational part of church. And we were reading in doctrine Covenants, which is a part of the Mormon scripture, part of the canon. And I remember reading a line in DNC. I still remember the section 88. I don't remember the verse because I wasn't that good of a Mormon, I guess, but I remember it saying that basically the gist was what is truth is light or what is light? Truth is light, Truth is light. Yeah. And it's a really simple thing, but man, I just, it just hit me like, as a resounding truth, like regardless of anything outside religion, like, it just hit me as like to the core, like that seems true because, you know, obviously sin doesn't lie in darkness and lies don't lie in darkness.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:05] And the truth, the truth can never lie in darkness. It just, it just added up to me. And so then I thought to myself, okay, if that's true, then why are there little things that I know I can't talk about in the church?

Wayne Sermon [00:27:17] Why are there whispers in the corners of this religion that I know I can't face or that if I did it'd be awkward or weird. Like, you know, we can get into these issues but like, you know, polygamy or, you know, certain falsehoods that, you know, like there's little whispers of stuff that you Know, you know, it's just like. Yeah, you don't go there. And I thought, well, but truth is truth, and it. It can penetrate anything. So. So what's the deal with that? And so just looking back, that's.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Those are things that were kind of on your shelf.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:47] Yeah, that.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] But you were still all in.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:49] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] But just in the back of your mind, those things. Yes, I had those things, too.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:53] Yeah. Anyway, I. I've been.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] No, that's great. That's great. Thank you.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:57] Too much time.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] And, you know, we're coming back to Wayne's story, but let's. Let's jump to Alex. So, Alex, you're not living in Utah.

Alex Sermon [00:28:05] I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] Yeah. Tell us about your childhood and your family then.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:09] California. Oh, California Mormon.

Alex Sermon [00:28:11] I know.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:12] Yikes.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] I just have to say, there's byu. There's always this reputation that, like, California Mormons are different than Utah Mormons. But there's a lot of intensity in Orange county around Mormonism. Like. Like this is where L. Whitney Clayton comes from. This is the same.

Alex Sermon [00:28:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] What do you mean?

Alex Sermon [00:28:28] I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Okay. Anyway, like that. What is it? Not Laguna, but, like, where's the temple? Newport Beach. Like, that's some intense Mormonism, too. So it's just a different flavor. So, anyway, California.

Alex Sermon [00:28:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] Tell us about your parents and then your kids, your siblings and all that.

Alex Sermon [00:28:43] All of my kids. Yeah. So I grew up in Huntington Beach, California, and my mother is a convert. She converted when she met my dad when she was 19, and he grew up in Sugar House in Salt Lake and comes from pioneer stock, I believe. I come from a third wife chain somewhere back there. And. Yeah, so she converted when they met, and we grew up Mormon. I'm the oldest of four siblings. Yeah. What's kind of unique about everything? My Everything. Yeah. So I guess what would be unique about my upbringing is my father is kind of an intellectual. And he kind of. He is an intellectual.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] What's his profession?

Alex Sermon [00:29:37] He's a medical director, but he's just has very high IQ and is constantly researching some subject or another. During my ch. Childhood, it was church history a lot, actually. My grandfather, who I never met. What's his name?

Wayne Sermon [00:29:56] Hugh Nibley.

Alex Sermon [00:29:56] Hugh Nibley actually was his best friend, so kind of all intertwined that way. And. Yeah. So my dad, from a young age, just kind of would plant seeds of. I wouldn't say, like, to him, they were seeds of doubt in my brain. But as a kid, while my brain was developing, I felt like he would say things like, you know, when people go up on the stand and they say they know the church is true, he's like, they don't really know. And, you know, maybe they have faith or they're hoping that it's true, but they don't know. And so I love your dad.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:38] You're really one of the smartest people I've ever met.

Alex Sermon [00:30:40] Right. And so it kind of. When I was little, it's like I wanted someone to say, you know, like, I know I'm fully confident in this and, you know, cause we're living our life that way. But I just kind of knew. All right, that's a little weird. I knew about Joseph Smith's looking in a hat from a really young age. And so when we learned about that at church, I felt like, well, this is a little weird looking in a

John Dehlin [00:31:04] hat to produce the Book of Mormon.

Alex Sermon [00:31:05] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:31:07] So all these things were kind of floating in my head. I actually even gave a talk in church saying that people shouldn't say that they know the church is true during testimony meeting, that they should say that they have faith. And that faith is way more important than knowledge because it involves, like, an act of constantly, like, searching and knowing, you know, like trying to know rather than actually just sitting there and saying, you know, the church is true.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] So were your parents raising you as devout Mormons, though?

Alex Sermon [00:31:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] So were you still. Were you going to church every Sunday? Were you?

Alex Sermon [00:31:39] We were going to church every Sunday. I would say there were things someone in my family. I don't really want to out anyone in my family, but someone in my family battled with an addiction problem. And so, you know, I didn't feel like we were on, like, straight and narrow.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] Like a lot of wasn't a perfect.

Alex Sermon [00:32:00] Right. And so that was kind of hard because I. I'm kind of like a rule follower and I wanted to be more that way in the church. But, you know, I believed that it was true. I hoped that it was true as. As much as I could. I had a lot of things in the back of my head that, you know, made me uncomfortable in terms of. I didn't. Like, I felt like even growing up from a young age, I just felt like women were kind of patronized. I didn't feel like it was, oh, women are just so sweet and soft spoken. And I didn't really feel that way at all about myself that I fit into this category of the Mormon woman. But that could have just been my perception. I'm sure that's not the case everywhere. What else? I grew up a Ballet dancer.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Let me ask, did you. Were the things you loved about your Mormon upbringing, like the music or the hymns or like the service or the leaders or the youth or seminary, or was. Were there parts of it you loved?

Alex Sermon [00:33:06] I wouldn't say that I didn't love it. I. I went and I attended and I would say I loved that there was community. I loved that I felt that there was something special about growing up in this fold. I don't know. I wouldn't say that I just lived and breathed it, maybe like someone like Daniel did, but I felt like it was the right thing to do. I lived by Mormon standards. I felt like that was a good way to live. And I kind of always hoped that that would be what I became one day. Like, I would figure it out when I was older, but at the time, it just. Things didn't make sense. But that was now and future me. Things will make sense. And. And that's actually why I. Part of the reason I ended up going to byu, to kind of like, become that.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] So you wanted to. You wanted to feel something.

Alex Sermon [00:34:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] But you weren't quite feeling it, but you had hope that you would feel it someday, right?

Alex Sermon [00:34:08] Exactly. Like, my dad would say the same sort of thing, like, when people were crying on the stand, it's like, that's emotion. That's not actually the spirit. So I'm like, then what is the spirit if that's not the spirit?

John Dehlin [00:34:17] So that's weird. You. You in your family, you were explicitly talking about the things that. That. That Wayne was wondering about, but not able to talk about, but putting on a shelf.

Alex Sermon [00:34:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] That's interesting. Totally different family cultures.

Alex Sermon [00:34:32] Exactly. And I mean, I was kind of hoping for that. More of that experience just because I thought that would make it easy on me. If I had a parent at a young age telling me, this is what to believe. This is what we do.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] Right. Because that takes away all the cognitive dissonance. It's just like, I'm all in because it's true versus, like, it could be true, it might not be true. Wait, was that emotion or was that the spirit? Yeah, that's. That can add. I mean, it's basically like they baked cognitive dissonance into your religious upbringing.

Alex Sermon [00:34:59] Right. Twisted.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:02] Which is good and bad because it can make you resilient later.

Alex Sermon [00:35:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] Doesn't set you up maybe for quite as hard of a fall because you were.

Alex Sermon [00:35:09] Exactly. I think. And we'll talk about later. I don't feel like I had as big of a fall just because I I always was taught to question things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Okay, that's. That's really interesting.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:20] Was your.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] Was your dad or your parents into, like, Sunstone and Dialogue and. Yeah, what's the name of that Mormon stuff? Yeah, the Miller Echols group. Was that.

Alex Sermon [00:35:30] Is that what it is? We'd go and hear a speaker of, you know, it'd be like an LDS person and a Protestant or someone else, and they kind of have a dialogue.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] Oh, okay. Interfaith dialogue.

Alex Sermon [00:35:41] Yeah, maybe. Yeah. So we'd go to speakers like that. My dad would take us to all different churches every once in a while, like, once a month, we'd try a different church just so we could just experience something else. And I'm. I mean, as an adult, I'm grateful for all of this.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:35:56] But as a kid, it was just like. Well, this isn't the truth, dad. You know, what are we doing over here?

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Sounds like you both had really cool parents, just in different ways.

Alex Sermon [00:36:04] We're big fans of our parents.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:06] Huge fans of our parents.

Alex Sermon [00:36:07] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:07] I don't think we could have done better.

Alex Sermon [00:36:08] Right? Definitely the case.

Alex's Ballet Background and Early Life

John Dehlin [00:36:10] So tell us about ballet. Just when did you start dancing?

Alex Sermon [00:36:13] Yeah, I started dancing at three.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:15] Wow.

Alex Sermon [00:36:16] Yeah, it was a huge part of my life, all growing up, so I felt like I had a community that way. I danced on Sundays, which, you know, a lot of LDS girls, Latter Day Saint dancers wouldn't do, but I just felt like that was. You know, my family let me do it. And, yeah, it was a big part of my life. I danced competitively, just classical ballet, and I ended up. I wanted to go to University of Utah. That's where my dad went, and that was always the plan. But while we were there auditioning, I auditioned for BYU just because my parents wanted me to, and they offered me a scholarship, and the University of Utah did not.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Oh, bummer.

Alex Sermon [00:37:04] Right? And so, rather than going into a bunch of debt, I decided to go to byu.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] You. Of you. What were you thinking? What were you thinking?

Wayne Sermon [00:37:14] Your loss.

Alex Sermon [00:37:15] Your loss.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] No, and I'll. I should. I don't know when I should talk about this, but there's an amazing video of. Of Wayne and. And Alex where Wayne's playing guitar and Alex is dancing. And this is a legit ballerina here, like a professional level ballerina, so you got to check that out because it's beautiful.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:35] Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much.

Alex Sermon [00:37:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] Yeah. Okay, so competitive dance now, that's an intense sport. We talked before Margi was a runner, and there. There's a lot of perfectionism. In dance and there's sometimes eating disorders. Like, it's. It's really intense.

Alex Sermon [00:37:52] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:37:53] Is that how it was?

Alex Sermon [00:37:54] Yeah, it definitely was. I would say that, you know, I went to BYU and we ended up. I had a director there who's no longer there and he kind of like fueled, I would say, an eating disorder with me because I. Because of my level and everything. I feel like people held me to a really high standard, so I had to look a certain way and be a certain way.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] And Mark had a coach that would just say, you're fat. I mean, these are the fittest people you would ever see.

Alex Sermon [00:38:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] And he would be abusive and I don't mean to call anyone out. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but these girls were kind of verbally and emotionally abused.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:34] Honestly, I thought. I thought music culture was bad. It doesn't hold a candle. I've never seen anything as toxic, as potentially toxic as ballet.

Alex Sermon [00:38:44] Ballet, right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] So you had a leader in your life who was similar.

Alex Sermon [00:38:49] A director actually, at byu.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:38:53] And the culture was really bad my freshman year. I think everyone felt it. He actually ended up being fired before my sophomore year for. It's still unclear. I know that there was a trial of some sort, but some sort of power abuse of women. But I was grateful for that a little bit that he left and it became a much more positive experience after that. But yeah, so I think that also just as part of my personality to be really intense and just, I don't know.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:29] Driven.

Alex Sermon [00:39:30] Yeah, Driven one.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:32] One Single minded, perhaps, maybe.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] Yeah. So that's interesting and we'll talk about this in your relationship. But normally, like Margi is super. I'd say kind of high anxiety. High. Highly organized, highly particular, highly perfectionistic. You know, if you saw my office, you wouldn't call me perfectionistic. I'm more messy.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] More spontaneous. It's interesting to think of two similar personalities ending up being together.

Alex Sermon [00:40:00] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:40:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:01] Because there's not as much of the offsetting in that. In that realm.

Alex Sermon [00:40:05] Yeah. What's funny is I feel like we're both very perfectionist and intense in our art, but in life we're much more relaxed.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] Oh, good.

Alex Sermon [00:40:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] Okay. So it's just.

Alex Sermon [00:40:15] And so we're similar that way as well, so.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] But two artists together, that's interesting too. Right?

Alex Sermon [00:40:20] Yeah. Luckily it's different mediums.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] Right, Right.

Alex Sermon [00:40:22] Grateful for that.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Okay, so. So at BYU you danced and. Anything else you want to say before we, you know, pre. Meeting? Wayne, I keep wanting to say, Daniel, you're Daniel. Wayne. Right.

Alex Sermon [00:40:37] Yeah. Sorry. I call him Daniel.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] You call him Daniel?

Alex Sermon [00:40:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] No, no, it's okay. As long you don't care. I don't care.

Wayne Sermon [00:40:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] So, I mean, before meeting Wayne, anything else you want to share about your story and then we'll hop back to Wayne's story.

Alex Sermon [00:40:49] I mean, not especially. I, I would say I was in byu, but not of byu. I kind of.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] And that's the reputation of Californians.

Alex Sermon [00:40:56] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:40:57] Yeah. Yeah. Well, so what do you mean by that?

Alex Sermon [00:41:00] Yeah, I mean, I, I felt like I didn't quite fit in with the dating culture or the, I mean, at the time, you know, it's like girls would get up like two hours before church and just want to look great for the guys. And I purposely would wake up like five minutes before and not wear makeup just to be like, what are we doing? I don't need to impress you. And I felt like it was very showy maybe. And that was just my interpretation. I was just kind of like a beach town girl. I wrote for the Daily Universe, if you know that byu. I was a journalist and major and I, I really did love my experience there. And yeah, I, I guess the only thing that would be interesting is that I just wasn't interested in dating guys at BYU in general.

John Dehlin [00:41:47] Okay. What about like all the prophets speaking or. Oh, these religion classes, like for me. Were you into the. And you talked about how your, your, maybe your testimony wasn't where you wanted it to be, but maybe BYU would be the answer. How was your spiritual journey at byu? Did you get what you wanted? Did you find what you were looking for?

Alex Sermon [00:42:06] I think more I, I grew, my testimony grew. I enjoyed hearing the prophet speak. I, I felt like I was a part of something bigger, something important, you know, I was like right there in the center of Mormonism and that was exciting since I'd never really been in that position. However, I, I still just, I just didn't buy it all, you know, I thought it was cool and I, I still, I probably had that same mindset of like, one day it'll fully make sense. Like every once in a while there'd be something said and I would just put it, I guess, on my shelf and think, you know, I'll figure that out later though, you know?

John Dehlin [00:42:45] Yeah. Was there in any of your Mormon upbringing any like guilt and shame sort of stuff that really vexed you? Did you ever have to confront any of that stuff?

Alex Sermon [00:42:55] Not from my parents. My parents were super open minded about stuff like that. I, you know, I kind of put the pressure on myself just knowing from the church's standard, like I had a boyfriend at 15 and I felt pretty awful about that. Even though my parents were like, we never told you you couldn't date at 15. But to me that was a really big deal because it was constantly said that you don't date until 16. So I feel like any pressure was kind of. I would hear maybe in young women's or church, and I would put it on myself. But I didn't get that directly from my parents, which I think helped me mentally.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] Any bad run ins with leaders, you know, adolescence or adulthood or was it.

Alex Sermon [00:43:35] No, I mean, I was pretty goody two shoes, so not really that way. I mean, I feel like, you know, and we'll talk about it later maybe, but you know, before getting married there were bishops that said things that were probably a little inappropriate. But again, I just kind of let it roll off because I feel like I felt pretty confident. Just I believe things that make sense and logic. But when things are said to me that aren't logical or if my shorts were too short or something like that, I just didn't find that to be that offensive to me because to me I felt right. I felt right with my savior or whatever. And I, you know, I didn't think of someone else being able to tell me to feel wrong about something. I guess that's great.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] Yeah. Good. All right, Alex, thanks for the background. We'll come back to you. Don't get. Don't get too comfortable. Okay?

Alex Sermon [00:44:29] I'm not comfortable. Don't worry about that.

Wayne Sermon [00:44:32] You thrive, you know. You know you thrive.

Alex Sermon [00:44:35] Yeah. Again, this is, this was sprung on me this morning. I was not planning on doing this interview until this morning.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] You're doing great.

Wayne Sermon [00:44:41] I call providence on that because I woke up thinking you should do it with me. And John texted me at eight in the morning and I woke up to a text that said, is Alex going to be joining us? So, you know, not to be woo woo.

Alex Sermon [00:44:53] And I'm just down there feeding our daughter oatmeal, thinking nothing's different. So I don't know about that.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] I saw that. I saw that video. This. I was doing some prep work and I saw that video and I'm like, oh man, we got to get Alex in here.

Alex Sermon [00:45:05] Got to get that weirdo in she balance.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:07] She makes me, you know, she evens me out.

Alex Sermon [00:45:09] So yeah, I'm more here as like an emotional support puppy. Not in like a subservient way, but like, you know, we're good Together.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] So you are good together. All right, Wayne, so back to your story. So we. We left off, you were being adolescent and not so sure about the FY thing, but. But putting it on your shelf and trying to make it work.

Wayne Discovers Music and Guitar

Wayne Sermon [00:45:29] Yeah. And, you know, I stayed. Stayed with it. And, you know, junior high happened. It was terrible. But, you know, I think that's a universal truth as well, is that junior high is terrible. Yeah, high school was better.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:42] Had a good time.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] You know, talk about your development as a musician.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:46] Oh, yeah. I. So I started playing piano. I was 8, and I started playing cello when I was 10. I still play both of those.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] Was Yo Yo Ma. Like a huge. Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:55] Public assaults Yo Ma. So I. Cello before guitar. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:01] Okay. So I really enjoyed that. But I remember going into a music store when I was 12, and my dad played guitar, so I was always aware that that was an instrument.

John Dehlin [00:46:09] Is he like a John Denver? Like, whoa.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:11] Yeah, maybe John Denver.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] James Taylor.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:13] James Taylor more, you know, singer, songwriter, you know, kind of 70s, you know, 60s 70s stuff. That's my stuff. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Eagles.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:21] Yeah, he was. He's a really great musician. And so I always saw him play guitar, but I never thought about, you know, it was an acoustic guitar. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And I remember when I was 12, I walked into a music shop just because we needed something called the rhythm section in American Fork. We finally got a music store. We were on the map. And I walked in and there was just row after row of electric guitars. And I just remember thinking, what the hell are those? Give me one.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] Really?

Wayne Sermon [00:46:51] Yes. And I just. I. I was obsessed with it. I asked one for Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:46:55] What was your first guitar?

Wayne Sermon [00:46:57] It was Ibanez RX 60.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] Nice.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:00] Black with purloid pick, guard humbucker, A single coil. Single coil for those who are interested.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] And you're reminding me of Neil Pert. Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:09] Lee with the, you know, Spinal Tap.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:13] But, yeah, I was absolutely hooked from the moment I saw. I was like, that's my life now.

John Dehlin [00:47:17] Really?

Wayne Sermon [00:47:17] Absolutely. I was obsessed with it. As soon as I got the guitar for Christmas, best Christmas ever. My parents are awesome for getting me one. It changed my life.

John Dehlin [00:47:25] Little amp.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:26] Little. Little amp. What to go with it? You betcha. Push the button and it has a little distortion and.

John Dehlin [00:47:32] So what did you start. Did you, like. Was it. How did you start, like, what songs did you start learning? What was your goal? Like, were you. Were you trying to get your teacher to teach you rock music? Were you just, like, learning the classics?

Wayne Sermon [00:47:44] Like, I just became obsessed with absolutely everything about music. I became single minded. Like, honestly, like, even religion, everything takes a backseat. As soon as music was in my life that. That I spent. I practiced for eight hours a day sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] Eight hours a day? Absolutely. By choice.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:01] By choice. I loved it. I just. I was. I would eat cereal and play the guitar, not taking breaks.

Alex Sermon [00:48:07] That actually happened all the time. When we. When I first met him, he'd always have a guitar in his hand, no matter what he was doing.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] But was it, like, listen to stuff and then play and listen and play?

Wayne Sermon [00:48:16] Yeah, like, listen to a lot of, like, my brothers. My older brother's really into grunge, and so Pearl Jam, Nirvana was like, that's some of the first stuff I learned. He loved grunge music, and so I love crunch.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] He's learning chords.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:26] Learning chords and then got into lessons and learned how to do solos and just like, became more and more rabid as the more I learned. And just.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] Just local guitar teachers.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:36] Yeah, it's local guitar teachers and, you know, slowly moved up to better and better teachers and more renowned teachers and stuff like that. And I remember when I was 16, I was. Yeah, actually. That's interesting.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] Were you in a band before 16?

Wayne Sermon [00:48:50] Like, did you just like, family stuff?

John Dehlin [00:48:53] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:53] You know, like, high school bands and stuff? For sure. Okay. But I remember when I was 16, we were at a. A Mormon wedding, and it was, you know, sometimes they're fun, sometimes they're a drag because you go to one week, to be honest, and me and my.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] Did you what?

Wayne Sermon [00:49:08] We go to one once a week.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Oh, okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:49:10] It's a weekly occurrence, right?

John Dehlin [00:49:12] Yeah, yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:49:12] When your dad's a bishop, you know.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] Was your dad bishop?

Wayne Sermon [00:49:15] No, he's. He's a stake president now, actually.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Was he then? No. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:49:19] No. But we were sitting at the table, kind of bored, didn't really know the people, and we were eating some cake, and my dad, you know, was like, hey, so what are you gonna do with your life? I was like, 15 or 16. It's, like, time to think about these things, potentially. I was like, oh, I don't know, maybe, you know, get an MBA or go to law school. And my dad just looked at me. I'll never forget. He said, what are you talking about? There's something in the stars for you with music. And that, like, really stuck with me. And I don't know if he even knew at the time how much that impacted me, but I thought to myself, he's completely right. Like, I have to dedicate my Life to this. And so.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] Wow. So many parents are going to be like, have your stable profession. Exactly. And then music if it happens, but don't rely on it.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:00] Yeah. So rather than. It was the opposite. It was the exact opposite. That is so powerful. Instead of a parent that discouraged. And my mom was the same way. You know, she was justice, gung ho for me doing this. It's like, instead of being discouraged from it, you're actively, like, pushed. I was actively pushed into doing this. And so.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] But you also loved it, so.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:18] I also loved it.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] They saw that.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:19] They saw that and said, yes, do it.

John Dehlin [00:50:21] Cool parents, man.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:22] Freaking cool parents. Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:50:24] Yeah. Everyone who meets them knows.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:25] Yeah, I really couldn't ask for anything better as parents. And so, yeah, so I, you know, played all through high school, played high school bands, got more serious, got into, like, jazz and like, more like, you know, sort of like highbrow, sort of nerdy part of music, and took AP music classes and just like, really wanted to absorb all of it. And when high school finally was over, I decided to go to Berkeley. I went to UVU for a while first, but then decided to go to Berkeley and Boston. And my parents were really encouraging with that, too.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] A lot of people. So just as a funny little coincidence, there was an amazing musician growing up in Katy, Texas. You know, Renee's. Renee Zellweger and I were in the same high school class, but Michelle Burke was an amazing musician who went to Berkeley. And I'm like, berkeley, that's in California. And it's like, no, no, no. Berkeley School of Music in Boston. It's like Juilliard, but it's in Boston, basically.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:18] Right.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Is that fair to say?

Wayne Sermon [00:51:19] Yeah, it's more contemporary. Like, Juilliard is probably more focused on jazz and classical, whereas Berkeley has more of a contemporary.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] And it's Berkeley with the E, right? Not an E, Y or E. Yeah, yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:30] Mostly like jazz and pop and. And.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] But it's top notch, you know, training great teachers.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:35] But yeah, you know, so that's like the whole music. That's like my music path. But as far as, like, where I was spiritually that time. So obviously, you know.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] Wait, wait, wait. Before we leave that.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:47] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] Were there any. Was it. Was it always in your mind to be a lead guitarist? Like in your.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:52] Those teen years, a musician? All I cared about was doing music.

John Dehlin [00:51:55] Okay, so it wasn't like, I want to be Eddie Van Halen or I would.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:58] I mean, you know, did you have favorite.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Like, were there particular musicians that you were, like, really idolizing? Jimi Hendrix.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:07] Yeah, Jimi Hendrix. Eric Clapton, you know, I love Lindsey Buckingham, Tom Scholes from Boston, George Harrison, obviously from the Beatles, you know, and

John Dehlin [00:52:20] as a teen, those are your influences.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:21] Yeah, and that's like golden goal number one is being a band and, like, you know, travel the world and all that. Like, I would just watch late night TV and like, wait for the band to come on and just. I remember just thinking, if I could just do that. If I could just like that. What it. What an absolute dream that would be like. It would be like winning the lottery a thousand times in a row.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] Wow.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:39] Like, I was just. It's like I just remember wanting it so bad. I know that the odds are, like, so stacked and so I just, you know, but I couldn't help but dream and want it. And so. Yeah, so I just followed that.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] Any, Any. Any numbers that you learned as a teen that were, like, particularly momentous, Like, I'm gonna learn this lick or this song, or were there any, like, Smoke on the Water? Yeah, that's a joke. Yeah, that's the first one everyone learns, right?

Alex Sermon [00:53:12] I don't.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:12] I don't know. I think sort of like when I was, like, really serious about it and when everyone realized I was serious about it is when I learned there's a song called Alive by Pearl Jam and incredible guitar. Like one of my favorite guitar solos. So I learned it note for note at that. And when I was like 15 or 16. And that's when it's like, okay, I think he's serious about this.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] And you were able to figure it out and.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:32] Yeah, learning like Eruption by Van Halen and like, all the.

John Dehlin [00:53:35] Eruption. Yes.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:37] All the necessary stuff you have to. We call that guitar wanking. You know, the faster. The faster you can play, the better. So Joe Satriani. Steve. I like, just like learning how to play really fast and technically proficiently.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] And so you learned Eruption at What age?

Wayne Sermon [00:53:53] Probably 16.

John Dehlin [00:53:54] Okay, for those of you young folks, go. Go check out Eddie Van Halen's Eruption.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:59] I don't play as good as him because no one does.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Okay, okay. But.

Wayne Sermon [00:54:02] But I learned it. No, for no. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:03] That's my own way. Amazing. Okay. Okay. So when you think about. And I want to get to your spiritual stuff. When you think about going to Berkeley, in your mind, were there any famous musicians that had gone to Berkeley? What. What in your mind made you think Berkeley? Given your ambitions, how was it going to get you to where you wanted to go?

Wayne Sermon [00:54:22] Yeah, I think you can get, like, a really decent music education from, like, BYU or places that are closer to me, but nothing that had the contemporary edge to it. Like, I wanted to do either contemporary, like writing and production or performance. And so there was nothing really in Utah that was quite right for that. And so Berkeley was kind of the Mecca, where pretty much everyone goes. You know, it's like you're the best whatever in your town. Then, you know, maybe you think about going here where you'll become a very tiny fish in a very huge pond and suddenly realize you're not so great.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Have famous people gone to Berkeley?

Wayne Sermon [00:54:58] Yeah, yeah, Like Pat Metheny, you know, like John Mayer went there, I think.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] John Mayer, Yeah. He's a great guitarist, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:55:03] He's a great guitar player.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Who's the person you said before?

Wayne Sermon [00:55:07] John Scofield. These are like jazz people.

John Dehlin [00:55:08] Okay, Jazz.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:09] Jazz guitars, jazz guitar players, who else? You can just go online and see there's like a ton of famous people have gone there. That was a good selling point for me. But, yeah, more than anything, I just wanted to. I wanted to go where people were like minded.

Spirituality, Depression, and Mission Decisions

Part 2 of 5 · Ep. 1182

John Dehlin [00:00:31] So coming back to your spiritual stuff, that's not the. The righteous BYU path. Right. So tell us about how you were thinking about spirituality when you made that decision, and. And then just go from there on your spiritual journey.

Wayne Sermon [00:00:42] Yeah. So, you know, high school was.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] It was great.

Wayne Sermon [00:00:46] And, you know, obviously, when that comes to an end, you have to figure out what you're doing, what you're doing with your life. And as all Mormon boys know, there's. There's a rite of passage that has to be crossed, so. And that pretty much every boy is, especially in Utah, is very much pressured into going on a mission. It's required, expected. And I wasn't. I was on the. I was no different than that. So I don't know how interesting this will be, but basically, another part of my journey has been that I'm a chronic insomniac. Like, just a clinical insomniac. Like, real deal. Not like, you know, I had a rough night's sleep. More like, you know, I would go to labs and have diodes strapped to my head and, like, studying my brain

Alex Sermon [00:01:32] from, like, age 12.

Wayne Sermon [00:01:33] Yeah. And, like, so, like, average.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] How many hours of sleep a night?

Wayne Sermon [00:01:36] It varied. Sometimes I'd be like, eight hours. Other times I wouldn't sleep at all. I'd go for four or five days without sleeping and just. It was a nightmare. I was on every kind of medication you can possibly imagine, like Klonopin, Trazodone, Clazepam, you know, some of the stuff.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] Are those benzos?

Wayne Sermon [00:01:55] Yeah, benzos. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] That's.

Wayne Sermon [00:01:57] Which, in hindsight, it's kind of, you know, interesting.

Alex Sermon [00:01:59] Pretty intense.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Those can be highly addictive.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:01] Very high. And I, you know, I. I struggle with that a little bit, but I always changed medications when that happened, and it was. It was a defining characteristic in my life, for sure. And it's, you know.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Do you think it's just biological? Was it anxiety?

Wayne Sermon [00:02:13] I'm sure that someone, you know, in the future could study my brain. They'd see the part that's like, oh, yeah, that's. Something's wrong there.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] Okay.

Alex Sermon [00:02:19] Yeah. And he has a family member that.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:21] My mom is a very bad sleeper, too. So I think I just kind of got that plus. Plus an extra dose.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] And was it the type where you would just play guitar when you couldn't sleep, or would you just sit there and stare at the wall?

Wayne Sermon [00:02:32] I was told not to do that because that would just exacerbate it. Yeah. Yeah. So I really tried to, you know, tried to do it.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:38] But.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] So that was working as a youth, that would be hard.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:42] It was. It was. It was honestly debilitating. And, you know, it's like everyone kind of knew, like, oh, you know, Daniel's not going to make it to his. The first half of school today. It's like, my teachers knew. It's like they, like, sometimes they were nice. They give me passing grades because, like, you know, you know, I'm not going to be there. Like, all my friends would joke, like, don't expect Daniel to be there until, you know, seminary was fourth period for me, and, like, even then I could barely make it, so.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] So you weren't making straight A's?

Wayne Sermon [00:03:07] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Not a great student.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:08] No, I was fine. I ended with like a 3:2 or

John Dehlin [00:03:10] something, but super bright. So, I mean, that's.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:13] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] But yeah. And you. You went by. You went by Daniel at the time. Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Okay. I didn't realize.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:18] Yes. I'm, I'm. I've transformed into Wayne.

Alex Sermon [00:03:20] There's three Daniels in the band. So, yeah, it's kind of become Wayne to a lot of people.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:26] Right. So.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] Got it.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:28] So, yeah, I, you know, I. I did a lot of. We tried, you know, me and my parents really tried to figure out, you know, I definitely would. Had really dark thoughts, really depressed thoughts. I, you know, very. Not very suicidal, but I certainly had thoughts about it. Just, you know, you don't sleep for that long. You're just not yourself. And, you know. And then I had to get on depression medication, which, of course makes the sleeping pills act weird. And like, it's just. It was kind of a mess, you know, and so it kind of ebbed and flowed as far as its severity, but it was tough.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:57] And so, you know, from that, I. I sort of had an out. And all my priesthood leaders knew about it. My bishop knew about. It's like. So in a way, I had a bit of an out. As far as, you know, they call it honorably excused from service.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] Oh, okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:11] You know, and then there's those that aren't honoredly excused, which is a different matter. And so I kind of had an out, but it was only kind of like, for those that maybe don't know. A mission is a really big deal for a Mormon boy and especially, I don't know, probably everywhere, but especially in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] It's.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:35] It's a. It's. It's sort of like if you don't go, it's like you dodge the draft.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:39] It's kind of seen with that. It's like, you're a draft dodger. You didn't go on missions. There's like two. There's two tiers of men. There's those that went on missions and those that didn't.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Yeah. And women won't want to date you.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] They won't want to marry you.

Alex Sermon [00:04:50] Yeah. We're told, you know, that you shouldn't want to date someone who didn't go on a mission.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:54] So I had that sort of amin, like, what is this honorable excuse?

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Really?

Wayne Sermon [00:04:58] It's like, it's just a still, you know, draft dodging to me. And. And so I got, you know, I did have some pressure, you know, from my family and. And from my community, like, that sort of unfelt pressure that I still. It just wasn't good enough. Like, my. My legs weren't broken. Like, you know, I. It wasn't like this super obvious thing where I was like, guys, I can't go. It's like, who's gonna believe someone that says they can't sleep? It's like, oh, you can't sleep, huh? That's tough. Cry me a river, right? So it's like.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:24] So I just. Just me and my parents decided that we would sort of not put in the doctor's notes telling me. Telling me that I am definitely not ready to go on a mission and kind of not put those in my mission papers.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:38] And so, you know, talk to my bishop about it and just said, you know, we're going to lie on faith for you to be healed and for you to be able to, you know, get up early every morning and do this thing. And I was with it, too. I was like, all right, you know, that's. That sounds good to me. You know, let's try it. Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] So you decided to go.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:55] I decided to go. And so I was called to serve in Montana. Billings, Montana.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] I thought you're gonna say you didn't go.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:01] I did go.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Okay. So Billy's okay. Wait for it. Billy. No, but I didn't even know that you were gonna apply, so. Yeah. Yeah. Billings, Montana. Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:09] So I was called the Billings. I went to the mtc, and I lasted five days.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] It's a three week experience. Yeah, Five days.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:16] Five days.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Talk about what happens. What was that like?

Wayne Sermon [00:06:19] Well, yeah, so I. This is. I don't actually talk about this at all. So this is. But it's good. This is good.

Alex Sermon [00:06:24] And I don't even know if you've fully told me the whole story yourself. I've kind of heard it from family members.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:29] Really? Oh, my goodness. So Dramatic. I guess it does have some emotion for me still. I don't know, it's not like I'm like gonna break down or anything, but we'll see. But yeah, so I lasted five days. I went four days without sleeping. It was absolutely horrific for me. On the fourth day, I went to the doctor and said, look, I need something. Like, I'm gonna go crazy. And so he gave, gave me a pill for sleep. I don't even remember what it was. I don't remember the name of it. I took it, slept a couple hours on it, and then woke up that morning in a paranoid state, like 100, convinced that I was in prison and that there was something diabolical going on.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] It's like a psychotic break.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:16] A bit of a psychotic break. So I just freaked out and I put my name tag in my pocket and ran out of the mtc.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] And.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:26] Which, which for people that don't know, you can't like, yeah, it's not like it's on lockdown. It's not a prison, but it's like, it's not like there's any gates on anything. But like walking out is also not like a tiny thing. Deal. It's huge. It's a huge deal to leave. It's like, you know, maybe you just get sent home. If you leave, it's like you're not serious about this. Like, we don't know. You just go home.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] It's emotional lockdown. It's not physical lockdown, but it's emotional lockdown.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:48] Right. And so I just darted, I was freaking out. I went, I, I, I think I went on universe.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Four days without sleep. That's. Yep. How many days? A certain amount of days you die when you don't get enough sleep.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:00] I think the record is a guy that did like 14 days or something, but I mean, but he was never the same.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] It starts to ruin your, your brain. Right, Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:09] So I just bolted. I bolted. And I remember I crossed University Parkway and there's a gas station right there. Right on, right on the campus, right across from the stadium, you know I'm talking about.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:21] That got the Chevron gas station.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Yeah. So I guessed my car many times.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:26] So I went in there. I probably looked. Fire looks so suspicious. The sweaty 19 year old skinny guy with the name tag, like it's a shadow of his name tag in his pocket. Just like, hey, can I use your phone? So, So I must have looked crazy enough. They just gave him the quarter. So I just took a quarter or two from the guy that Was nice enough to give it to me, and I used the pay phone, called my dad and said, I'm out. I'm done. Nope, no way, no how. This is not happening. And he said, slow down, son. You know, just, let's relax. I'm gonna come there, I'm gonna pick you up, we're gonna go back to the mtc. And I freaked out. I said, we're not going back to mtc. I will, I will go up this mountain right now. I will walk up this mountain. I'm not going back.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] Wow.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:11] And I, I was really, truly not myself.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] Now, was it, was it all that you weren't sleeping or was there cognitive dissonance about faith stuff or confidence or like the spiritual stuff or do you even know?

Wayne Sermon [00:09:23] I, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] But you weren't like thinking of. I wasn't like truth claim stuff or like, not.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:30] That wasn't the forefront for me. Like, I, I like you go like, for anyone that's not quite sure about their mission yet. I mean, sorry, not quite sure about Mormonism yet. You go on your mission and that's really. Everyone knows that's where guys really get firm.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:43] And that's when like, they come back.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] Some say in 2019, the missionary program is more about helping Mormon youth get committed to the church than it actually is about converting people.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:53] I'd say that's a solid argument.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:09:55] But I mean, just knowing your personality, I, I suspect that on a subconscious level, I mean, you have a hard time telling people what to believe or trying to convince them really. I mean, I think you're pretty open to other people's opinions and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] And so the idea of telling people what's true and what they need to do. Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:10:15] You think you were nervous?

Wayne Sermon [00:10:16] Well, I, I haven't had a ton of like four day experiences with no sleep before.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] So there's just the medical. You're saying it's probably most.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:23] No, no, I'm saying like, there could be an element to that because like, you know, those four day bouts of no sleep didn't, didn't happen that often. When they did, it was usually something, something else was going wrong. So I, I don't doubt that that played a part. I certainly didn't want to tell other people to do, but I was there to get my testimony so that I could do that. And so I wasn't like completely against the whole thing. It was just like that's. I was there to get the confidence so I could tell people what to do. And, you know, so I was planning on doing that.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:52] So that was intense.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] So, so said, I'm running up the mountain. I said, I'm going back.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:56] I ain't going back. My dad was like, what are you talking about, you crazy person? That is my son. Who are you?

Alex Sermon [00:11:02] I'm a hill person now.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] But that's like a moment. Like it's, it's probably better to have never gone on a mission than to have gone on a mission. I'm talking socially.

Alex Sermon [00:11:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] Than to have gone on a mission and came home early, especially four days, five days into your mission. So like you're facing in Mormon culture potentially a lot of humiliation of like, wait, we just had your farewell.

Alex Sermon [00:11:26] Maybe we donated money.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] Yeah, yeah. And now you're bailing and you have to go back to your ward home. Your family and your parents are embarrassed, your siblings are embarrassed. That's a, that, that is an over, you know, and people like, oh, first world problems, like poor white. Yeah, but it's emotionally. Yeah, that's a, that's a non trivial thing to, to leave the MTC five days into it.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:47] It was, yeah, it was social. I totally agree with that. And so my dad came and got me and we went back and I was like, it's like, son, you're going to go back, you're going to face us like a man.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] You did go to the mtc.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:59] I went back. He's, you're going to pack up your bags, you're going to get all your stuff, you're going to leave with your head held high.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] Oh.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:05] And I was like, oh my God, again, great person. What a dad.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:10] What a dad. And so I went there and after I, after I gathered up all my stuff and you know, I met with the MTC president before I left and I don't remember the president's name at the time, but, but I have to say that overall my experience with priesthood leaders, from the bishop to the stake president to this MTC president was overwhelmingly positive and amazing. Honestly, really, really. Like, I think each of them did the best they could. MTC president didn't try and shame me, didn't try and make me feel bad about not going, that I wasn't a man or that I was, you know, he totally understood.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:49] He like saw the notes and was like, okay, this makes like, yes, I understand that. Why you shouldn't be here. You're on. Consider yourself honorably excused from this and go, you're going to go on and still live a great life.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:02] And I remember expressing to him my trepidation about the shame I would feel going back. And like, you know, should I really be leaving? Like, maybe I can do this. It's like I was really anxious about going back like this.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:17] And he said. He looked at me and he said, I'll never forget. He said, if you knew how little other people thought of you, you wouldn't care what they thought of you. It's like, live your life. It's. You know, like other people are so concerned about themselves. It's like, you're gonna be. You're gonna be a couple synapses in their brain, and then they're gonna. You're gonna go away in their brain.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] What a great answer. So priesthood leaders for the win.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:41] Yes. And so, you know, like, Mormons have a good reputation in the world for a reason. You know what I mean? And it's like everyone says, oh, yeah, I. There's a Mormon at work, and he's a really nice guy. It's like, I think there's really a lot of good people in Morrison. And my experience proves that there's a lot of really good people.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] So that's so great.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:59] So. But, you know, like you said, like, as great as that was, and I can't imagine.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Had you been to Berkeley already or. This is pre. Berkeley.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:07] Berkeley.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] After uvu.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:08] Yeah, before uvu, I was like, can try and go. Well, I did a little bit of evu, but.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] And what year was this that you went to the mtc? Just so I can kind of put it in a chronology.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:17] 2004, maybe? Yeah, four or five.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Okay, four. So this is right around when I moved to Utah and started Mormon stories.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:23] Nice. Wow, that's crazy.

Alex Sermon [00:14:24] No idea.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:25] Yeah, I had no idea. Yeah. So I graduated in 03 from high school, did this mission thing in 04.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] And the American fork or the caveman. Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:31] Caveman.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] I have to say that, yeah. For some reason that's significant.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:34] We're better than our mascot, though. And we're only the Caveman because there's a Tifanos cave, you know? You know, it's a beautiful cave up America for canyon.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:44] But man, an unfortunate mascot. We do our best with it, so go caveman.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:50] AF pride all the way.

Post-Mission Life and Heading to Berkeley

John Dehlin [00:14:51] So 2003, you graduated from high school.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:53] Yeah, 2003.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] And you would have been in the MTC that same year.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:56] 04.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] 04.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:58] Next year I did a little bit of college.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Okay.04.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:00] I was like, I'm gonna try and do this thing. And so I did that. And like, like you said, like, I can't imagine what it would have been like for. Cause there's a lot of boys that go out and it doesn't work for them for whatever reason. It's like, whatever. That's like they had sex with their girlfriend and they have to come back. And it's like the shame of that. And then there's 500 people who know their business, who know why you came back.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:22] It's like, how can you come back from that as like a young man and feel like you're not a second class citizen?

John Dehlin [00:15:28] So, so you're not just dealing with the fact that you came home, you're dealing with the fact that everybody's wondering why you came home.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] Or, or assuming.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:34] Speculating. You're speculating and you're just sort of like. You go to church and you just feel this like shame. Like you're just like. And maybe like it's, it's, maybe it's self imposed.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] Oh yeah. Nobody means it.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] Nobody's kind.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:45] And it's like it comes from inside too. You feel this like, man, I'm just like, I'm garbage.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] Like, that's how you felt?

Wayne Sermon [00:15:51] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Like going back to church, you'd attend your home ward.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:55] Yep. Felt like I was basically a, like I said, a draft dodger, like a coward or you know, a failure of some kind of.

Alex Sermon [00:16:02] And I, I mean, I didn't meet him till four years later, but I still felt like you felt that, that negativity towards yourself.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:10] And I mean, even now, you know, a quote unquote rock star and, you know, it's like even pretty successful. Pretty successful. And even now I, there's times where I still feel like that failed missionary, you know. And so to anyone watching that has had that experience happen to them, just, you know, I feel for you and I love you and it doesn't define you.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] And say that quote again from your. Mr. From the.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:32] That if you knew how little other people thought of you, you wouldn't care what they thought of you.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] So good.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:36] And it's true.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] It's true.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:38] Live your own life.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] Everybody's got their own problems.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:40] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] Everybody cares about their own life the most.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:42] And like, you know, it's like from the women's perspective. Oops, sorry. A women's perspective on this. It's like, you know, you're taught that you should be, your eyes should be on the ball for return missionaries. Right?

Alex Sermon [00:16:53] Right. Yeah. I mean, that's what you look for is someone who's a returned missionary. At least that's what you're taught. I mean, luckily, when I met you, it was the last thing on my mind. But, you know, in a different life, you would have been out.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] Yeah, right. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:10] So, yeah, so then I, you know, I came back and just says, you know, I'm going to go to Boston. I'm just going to change the scenery here and try and still live a good life. And did you.

John Dehlin [00:17:19] Okay, when you had. I'm sorry, I just. I love this kind of stuff. I geek out. So by the time you graduate and you. And you were probably known as, like, a great musician in your high school, right? Was everybody like, you're gonna be a rock star someday, or was it just like, oh, you're a good musician, or

Alex Sermon [00:17:36] how much did you have a title in the yearbook?

John Dehlin [00:17:38] You know, because, like, do the basketball equivalent, some seven footer that, like, is all stayed. Everybody's like, you're gonna go to the pros. Where was it? Where was it? Where was the hype around you and your own personal expectations by the time you're, you know, becoming an adult?

Wayne Sermon [00:17:52] Oh, well, I mean, I was voted most likely to be a rock star in my high school.

Alex Sermon [00:17:56] Those things are accurate.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:58] How much more official can you get?

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Are you. Are you joking or. You said, okay?

Wayne Sermon [00:18:01] I was, but.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] Oh, you were okay?

Wayne Sermon [00:18:04] I mean. Yeah, I was. I was good. You know, I was. I. I was proficient on my instrument, and I think I was known as being pretty good.

Alex Sermon [00:18:12] But were you humble as you could see?

John Dehlin [00:18:14] Yeah. Were you known even bigger than American Fork? Like, were there battle of the bands that you. Were you known regionally or statewide as a musician?

Wayne Sermon [00:18:21] Maybe not. Like, I wasn't like some prodigy that was like, ooh, okay, I was just good. I was. I was proficient in good.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] That's good. Because people, like, think, oh, well, I wasn't maybe of that level when I was young, so maybe I don't have a chance, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:18:33] Oh, yeah, no, I was like, I was not like some prodigy. I worked really hard to get where I was and practiced a lot. And if I was good, it was just because of that. It wasn't because of any inherent genius on my part.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] But you didn't carry some community expectation that you've got to make it big? You know, everybody's expecting you to make it big. Or maybe a little bit. Okay, okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:52] A little bit of that. Maybe just from. For myself and for my family, like, it's like, I don't want to waste their, you know, waste the money.

Alex Sermon [00:18:59] I mean, also, he's extremely humble and won't really talk that highly of himself, but he did get a scholarship to school and it's pretty big deal, I'd say.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] So if your grades weren't great, how do you get in? How do you get a scholarship to a place like Berkeley? What do you have to do?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:13] Play. You have to play for them.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] You go there.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] And you bring your guitar.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:16] Yeah. And you say, watch this.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] What was that like? Do you remember what you played and what was that like?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:21] Yeah, I played West. West Montgomery. What is that? It's jazz. Okay. Yeah. I was 100, nerded out on jazz to that point, so I just played

John Dehlin [00:19:28] jazz and like you're some little boy from a little Utah town auditioning at freaking one of the premier music universities in the world. What was that like? What was their response?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:41] It was crazy. Nerve wracking. And it was, you know, it was. I never sweared so much my entire life. It's like, you know, they keep everyone in the hallway, then you call. Call you in one by one and you sit in front of three people and they're just looking at you and hands are shaking. You know, it's. It was a blur. But, you know, it was. I'm glad I did. It definitely saved my parents a lot of money and getting a scholarship. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:05] So you must have. You must have impressed them, you know.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:09] Yeah. There's giving these things away now, John.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Did they. Did they give you any feedback? Like, whoa, we haven't seen.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:15] It's not. Nothing like that. Okay. Just.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] Thank you. Okay. But you got a scholarship to Berkeley. That's amazing.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:22] And then I went to Berkeley and

John Dehlin [00:20:23] that's got to feel a little bit better than like having failed the MTC in people's mind. Did that help restore your confidence a little bit?

Wayne Sermon [00:20:33] Oh, wow. No.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Why not in that regard?

Wayne Sermon [00:20:35] No, I just. I don't think. I don't look at myself though. I don't know. I don't know why. Joe.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] Okay, okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:40] But I went to Berkeley and maybe this is why. When I went to Berkeley, I realized that I'm actually not that great. Or else I'm just great. But compared to these people.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] So your peers, your peers were.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:53] Oh, they're amazing. Like, it's like there's. There's a thousand me running around or 500 me that are great at guitar

John Dehlin [00:20:59] Again, like John Mayer.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:00] Yeah. It's like, okay, well, cool. You know, I. I thought I was something and, you know, maybe I should have just stayed the big fish in American Fork and.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:09] Instead of being a little fish Here, but obviously that's what you got to do. You can't. You got to have people to push you and have a community that is better than you so you can improve yourself. So that was eye opening. And just, I think culturally, I mean, I don't know if you know this, but Boston is different than Utah county just a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] So what's that like, the Utah boy going to Boston?

Wayne Sermon [00:21:28] Boston was a slap in the face culturally. It might as well. It might as well. It's like a different country. You might as well just say Boston is different. Like the east coast vibe. How more difficult can you get? Like the closed off, sort of like pseudo atheistic, like intellectual sphere. It's like, you know, the phone book is this thick just for colleges, and yet there is one singles ward in the entire one, one young, single adult ward.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Is it the Harvard? Is the MIT? Harvard, Boston University, Boston College 1.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:02] There's one ward. Okay, and so.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] And were you. Were you attending?

Wayne Sermon [00:22:05] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:06] I was still. I was still in and still, you know, was on the program.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:12] But even then, it's like when I wouldn't date, I was not like. Like Alex, I wasn't interested in dating at all for a lot of reasons. But also probably the biggest one is just like, you know, I don't want to have the conversation about how I didn't go on a mission. And if I was asked about it, I probably even lied about it a couple times. It's like, yeah, I want a mission because, you know, I. Technically, you did five days. You were called to the counting it. And just don't ask me any more questions about it.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] You know, the same subject.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:40] Anyway, so how are you? So, you know, I just didn't. I didn't want to open myself up to that. So I just, I didn't. I wasn't interested in girls at all, really. Oh. And just I practiced for eight hours a day in my. In my room, in my dorm. Didn't. Probably didn't have the most quintessential college experience. You know, no fraternities or crazy keggers happened. It was just very much just going to church and then studying and practicing a lot and trying to improve.

John Dehlin [00:23:10] So how. How did your sleep evolve? And then I. And then separate question. Sorry to ask them both at the same time. Some people would settle into that. Like, now I'm a small fish in a big pond with. With feelings of insecurity and I'm not good enough and I can't make this. I want a higher sleep evolved and then I want to know, how did you psychologically settle into? Like, I'm going to stick this out. I'm going to do it. Even if I'm not the best, even if I'm just one of many, I'm going to still settle in and grow. Without letting your insecurities overwhelm you.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:45] Yeah. Well, luckily I had a doctor's. Bunch of doctor's notes that said I could do early registration, so all my classes started at, like, 1. And so if I didn't get a good night's sleep, I could kind of compensate for it. And so they're a lot more lenient than the MTC was in that regard. You know, you can't have a bunch of missionaries sleeping until 1 in the morning. That wouldn't be any good for anyone. So one in the afternoon.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Right, Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:08] Yeah. Sorry. One in the afternoon. Apologies. So it was fine. I still. It's something I struggle with then. I struggle with it now I have nights where I don't sleep at all. And it's. It's gotten better with. A little bit better with age for some reason, but it's still something that lives with me. It's like our first album, Night Visions. Imagine Dragons album is called Night Visions. Based solely a lot like, on my insomnia. It's kind of like. And Dan also, like, wrote a lot of the music himself at night. And so it kind of became this album that was written sort of at night time. So Night Visions so kind of harkens to that. So it's still something that lives with me even now. And I just. You just have the good days and the bad days and you deal with it. I've learned how to deal with it

Alex Sermon [00:24:48] and, you know, it kind of lends itself to late shows and.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:53] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:24:53] Kind of made it work for you.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:54] I was born to be a trashy musician. No, but. But what was the other question?

Meeting Bandmates and Early Musical Ambitions

John Dehlin [00:24:59] The confidence. Like, how did you overcome whatever insecurities might be around being a small fish after being a big fish in a small pond, becoming a small fish in a big pond. How do you survive that and not let the insecurities overwhelm you?

Wayne Sermon [00:25:12] Well, I certainly wasn't going to fail at two things in a row.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] Really?

Wayne Sermon [00:25:15] No, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I. I was determined to finish it, and my parents were very supportive and they came out and visited me and make sure I was okay. And, yeah, I was bound and determined to do it.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] And you love. And you genuinely love music?

Wayne Sermon [00:25:29] Oh, yeah. It's like, if I can't make This I can't make anything. I mean, it's like I gotta eat, drink, sleep, music all the time and be among like, you know, like minded people all day long. So it was incredible. I love my experience. And it's also where I happened to meet Ben and Platts, who are the current bass player and drummer in our band. I met them, we had a class together. And so Ben.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] What's his first name?

Wayne Sermon [00:25:53] Ben McKee. And Ben McKee. Ben McKee plays bass, bass, and Daniel Plassman plays drums.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] He's the third Daniel.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:59] Correct. And so.

John Dehlin [00:26:01] But he goes by Platts. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:03] Met them there. And where are they from? They're from Atlanta. Platts is from Atlanta and Ben's from near Oakland in a little place called Forestville.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] Okay. So you meet them in class.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:15] Meet them in class. And they are hilariously different than anything I'm used to. It's like, it was honestly kind of refreshing because they were about as far away as religion as one can be. I remember Ben said his family motto was that better a church burned than a drop of liquor spilt.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:37] Whoa. It's like, whoa. Yeah. So that's like, you know, if you knew Ben. Yeah, you love it even more. But, you know, and Platts didn't. Wasn't particularly religious at all either. So it was really eye opening to me that they saw this, like, super, like, you know, white bread, like, kid from Mormon, kid from Utah and just didn't care at all about that stuff. Like, they didn't care at all. They just wanted to be my friend. They were very friendly, inviting people. I didn't know that I would call them later and ask them to be in the band. That just came later. But just goes to show you that, you know, it went to show me at least that, wow, like, people are just nice. I think people might just be nice everywhere.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Not just Mormons.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:23] Not. Yeah, there's. It's not an exclusively Mormon thing.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] Yeah. So did you guys play in bands together, Jazz bands or.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:31] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] So how did it. How. What was your. What, what did you do playing with them at Berkeley?

Wayne Sermon [00:27:37] We were in jazz a lot. Played a lot of jazz together. Played in like, we played other stuff too together, but mostly jazz stuff and. Which is kind of funny now that we're playing rock music. But we were. We were all super deep into jazz and kind of nerding out and, you know, this kind of stuff that most people don't want to listen to.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Have you seen the Ken Burns jazz?

Wayne Sermon [00:28:00] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:01] Yep. It was Wayne. It Was, you know, it was nerdy and, like, kind of like almost like math. It was like, very, like, heady, kind of progressive Prague jazz.

John Dehlin [00:28:11] Does that mean you like Genesis and like.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:13] Oh, way nerdier. Way nerdier than that.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] Yeah, but that's. That influences that kind of prog rock stuff, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:28:19] Yeah, yeah. And we had. We loved it and we. Yeah, we love that kind of music and we still like it. It's just, you know, it would kind of clear a room.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] So. Okay. Kind of thought, okay, it wasn't the way to get famous.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:30] It's not like every. You know, people love it, love it, but it's not for absolutely everybody. And so it's like, pop music is fun to play.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Is Fish influenced by that stuff?

Wayne Sermon [00:28:40] Yeah, I mean, it's. That's still. It's still. I mean, I would say, like, Steely Dan is maybe even more that way, but way even. We'll just keep going.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Okay. Okay. So a lot of jazz playing. Yeah. At Berkeley. Okay. And graduated, like, with honors or just normal or, like, by the time you're done with Berkeley, how are you feeling about your career and. And what were kind of people's perceptions or.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:08] After Berkeley?

John Dehlin [00:29:08] Yeah. Well, you know, as you're finishing there, where your teacher's like, you've got a gift. You're going to be great.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:13] Like, I had a lot of teachers take me under their wing, and I had a lot of really great professors that believed in me. And it's really cool. Really cool experience. Not every teacher is going to be your best friend. But I had. I did have the. The fortune of having really good role models, music, music wise. So.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] So when you finish, your mind is what's going to happen next?

Wayne Sermon [00:29:32] Yeah, what's going to happen next? So I went back to Utah. I was, like, making some kind of game plan. And my best friend growing. One of my best friends growing up, Andrew Tolman, was playing with this guy that was at byu. You know, Andrew's a really accomplished drummer and was sort of like the drum equivalent of what I was in high

John Dehlin [00:29:54] school, you know, was like, this is 2009. 2010.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:57] This was 2009. Yeah, probably nine or ten. Okay. So I met. So, yeah, I knew Andrew already, but then he was playing with Dan Reynolds and Dan was at byu.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] So Dan was in a band at byu?

Wayne Sermon [00:30:09] Yeah, he was like. He was, like, playing, like, doing, like, open mic nights. I think there was. I think he was in bands. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:15] He was. And Andrew and Dan were in a band together. And so I was this After Dan's mission. After Dan's mission, after he gets.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] He goes to Nebraska. That's where Tyler Glenn went as well. Comes back.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] And he's doing the velour thing, basically.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:29] Doing the velour thing. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] At. At byu, but not with Imagine Dragons, just with other. Other.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:35] Well, I guess there was a. The iteration. The original iteration I was not part of.

Alex Sermon [00:30:40] It's a very different band, but it was a match.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:43] But the name pretty much all its name. All that's the same was the name.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Okay. So Dan had been performing for a year or two with some other guys.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:49] Okay. And then I came back and somehow, you know, ended up playing with, you know, just was like I really believed in Dan. You know, when I saw him sing and play, I thought, know there was something there. Just from the first time I saw him, I thought that there was something special. What'd you there.

John Dehlin [00:31:05] You saw him at the velour the first time he performed?

Wayne Sermon [00:31:07] Yep, yep.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] Did he perform any of the songs that have been recorded today?

Wayne Sermon [00:31:12] Oh, absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] None of them, no. Okay, so this is all.

Wayne Sermon [00:31:15] This is all way, way before.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] Okay. Okay. So you just saw him as a performer and.

Wayne Sermon [00:31:19] Yeah, yep. He was good lyricist, good song, but more than anything, just really good stage presence.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:31:27] He just commanded that. It's like that thing that you can't create, you can't fake, you can't make. It's like either you have that stage charisma or you don't.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] It's Jagger.

Wayne Sermon [00:31:38] It's the Jagger. Jagger swagger. And.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] And Dan had it at BYU even then.

Wayne Sermon [00:31:45] He had it and a very commanding sort of thing. It's like, you know, I don't. Not that the songs were anything like super special, but like, it wasn't about. That was about. I saw a lot of potential in that and so I was excited about it. And I.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] And you had been at Berkeley, so you knew vocalists, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:32:01] Yeah, so I, you know, he had a lot of talent.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:32:05] And so I joined the band.

John Dehlin [00:32:08] How'd you convince him to take you on? Or did you have to?

Wayne Sermon [00:32:11] Andrew was like, hey, I know guitar player. He's really good or whatever. And Dan's like, cool. Hey. He's, you know, Danny's like. It's like this. He was like this, you know, lanky, like white jean wearing, super happy. Just like happy.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] Go.

Wayne Sermon [00:32:23] Lucky guy. That's just like really friendly and like, what's up, man? Nice to meet you. And we play together and it was just like, you know, it was really easy and he was really He's a really affable guy and easy to be around and just. It just made sense.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] So there's this. Apparently George Harrison's quite younger than Paul and John. And there's this moment I remember from their book or whatever books, where, like, Paul's. Paul brings George to play for John.

Wayne Sermon [00:32:48] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] And it's almost like a little audition. Did you have a moment like that where you, like, had to play for a little bit so Dan could evaluate your chops? Or was it not that formal?

Wayne Sermon [00:32:57] I. I wasn't. I didn't really think about it like that, but probably. I'm sure he was thinking, like, good, huh? Okay, sure. Let's see. Okay, I'm sure. I'm sure. But I didn't think. I wasn't too. Too worried about it or. I didn't. It wasn't like in the forefront of my mind that I had to audition

John Dehlin [00:33:11] for or anything, so it's just naturally happened.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:13] Just naturally happened.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Yeah. It wasn't like, can I be in your band early?

Alex Sermon [00:33:16] I feel like you're still so early

Wayne Sermon [00:33:17] that it was all very liquid and.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Okay, so you started playing. Okay. Did you kick out another guitarist?

Wayne Sermon [00:33:24] Like, I did not personally displace someone.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] I might have.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:29] There might have been some displacing.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] I don't.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:32] You know.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] But you.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:32] That's not your fault. I. I just want to be clear. I had absolutely nothing to do with that process whatsoever.

Alex Sermon [00:33:38] Go on record.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] I think I just stepped in.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:39] Yeah. No, I came in after. I came in after.

Alex Sermon [00:33:41] And you did not step swoop.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:43] I was. No, I'm. I'm not a swooper.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] Ringo booted a drummer. You know what I mean?

Wayne Sermon [00:33:46] Right.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Like that. When. When a new join, sometimes I think.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:50] I think they decided as a band that they wanted to change it up and then brought me in after. So that's hard. But I think. I think everyone's still really friendly even. Even now. It's not like this, like, awkward, weird thing. I think everyone involved is happy with the way things have gone. It's not. There's very little weirdness there now. But. So, yeah, that was. That was what I did. I was kind of all in on that. And then I moved to Vegas. And how long did you play at byu? Not long at all. I mean, really, less than a year. When I officially joined the band, we basically moved to Vegas immediately.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] Okay. So, like, Dan was waiting, like, what was it about joining. Yeah, he dropped out of BYU for a second time. Like, he was kicked out of BYU once.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:31] Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] And he Dropped out. What was it about you coming that. That made. That was like, okay, it's time to go to Vegas. Like, what was that?

Wayne Sermon [00:34:38] I think Dan. I don't think school's working for Dan much, you know, at the time. And he maybe. I don't know, maybe part of him felt like it's something he could always come back and do. He could always come back and do school. But like, his first dream has always been to be a musician.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] But it sounds like he. Maybe he said, I found my guitarist.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:57] Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:34:59] Come on, man, help me out. Help me out here.

Alex Sermon [00:35:01] Alex, I think. I mean, you just graduated school. I don't think you're ready to just do some part time, right? Like, I don't know, band side piece thing. I think you were all in. And so I think that probably gave everyone the energy to be like, okay, let's do this.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:15] It's like, well, yeah, it's like, you know, the thing. It's like when you say you're in a band or starting a band, it's like, I roll okay. Yeah, sure. Start a fan. Yeah. It's like, so I have this degree in music that I have. It's like, I might as well just roll up and smoke it. It's like, what's the point? It's like, so like, when I say I'm starting a band, it's like, okay, good luck. But like, I. I had a different mentality than maybe some people have about it. It's like I knew what I wanted. I knew at least an idea of how to get it.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:40] And I knew to surround myself with people that were, like, minded and that had that. That thing. And Dan had that thing. He had that, like. I could tell, like, this is a wagon you can hitch to for sure.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:53] And so I just. I dropped everything and I moved to Vegas. And Dan had a brother that managed the Killers. And so, like, he had this, like, idea that it could be a possibility because he'd saw it happen for the Killers in Las Vegas. And so it's like, well, if they can do it, then I can do it too. And that's just the kind of guy he is too. I think, you know, he's. I've never met anyone as. As ambitious and driven as that guy.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] I. You can cut this if you want to. We can cut this out or not. But I just have to say it's just because I'm friends with Robert. So. What people may not know is that Robert Reynolds is an entertainment attorney and he is the manager of Killers with Brandon Flowers, but he also helped out Neon Trees, helped them get successful as well. So Robert kind of had that experience of helping the Killers in Neon Trees. So when Dan's coming up, it has to be. And I don't want to project this, but it just seems like it has to be that having an older brother that's helped shepherd two bands to national or global prominence can't hurt.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:57] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] In terms of, like, helping Imagine Dragons get off the ground.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Is that true, or am I just making that up?

Wayne Sermon [00:37:03] I mean, the whole Reynolds family is a force. They're a force, you know, and they're driven. And so, yeah, I think that probably played a part in his mind. But I. To be very clear, nothing about that actually helped us. Whoa.

Alex Sermon [00:37:19] Everyone hopes.

John Dehlin [00:37:20] I wasn't expecting that.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:23] Well, obviously, Bob's advice was extremely valuable in shaping us. And, you know, Dan's other brother, Mac, end up managing us. And his. He was. He's an extremely intelligent guy and UCLA attorney, right? Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:37] Very, very.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] Bob went to nyu.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:39] Very sharp family. Very with it.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] It's like, how many kids? Like, nine kids.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:43] Yeah, nine kids. Eight.

John Dehlin [00:37:44] And they're like, you know how every, like, Mormon ward across the US or stake has, like, these families that are like, these anchor families that are, like, almost local Mormon royalty.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Is it fair to say the Reynolds are that in Vegas?

Wayne Sermon [00:37:58] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Yeah. So for sure. Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:00] So.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] But it's still hard to be a rock star. It's hard to be successful.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:03] I just want to give a false impression that. That. So basically, apart from the advice and the input of certain things, we. Any. Any connections or any, like, you know, I know this guy. No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] What's it like? How does it happen? How does it work?

Wayne Sermon [00:38:20] We slogged for three years.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] Did you buy a house together? I think I heard that, yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:38:24] Oh, rented.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] Rented.

Alex Sermon [00:38:26] There's no money to buy a house.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] So all four of you. Okay. So tell. You brought. You went back to your buddies to. And you said, hey, come join this band.

Moving to Vegas and Forming Imagine Dragons

Wayne Sermon [00:38:35] Yeah. Yeah. So we. We originally moved to Vegas with Andrew and Brittany, who are our best friends. They were the drummer and the keyboard player. So they were. They slobbed with us for two years and. And then Ben, the bass player. So it was. It was the five of us.

Alex Sermon [00:38:50] So Platzman wasn't in the band yet.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] Okay. So the drummer from Berkeley had joined.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:55] Not yet.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] Okay. Not yet.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:57] Okay. Andrew.

Alex Sermon [00:38:57] Andrew.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:58] Andrew, Brittany were married.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:00] And they were the keyboard and the drummer, respectively.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Okay, okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:02] Or not respectively.

Alex Sermon [00:39:03] But, yeah, disrespectful.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:05] Disrespectfully. So, yeah, we went out of the house together and we slogged and played empty rooms for years, literally. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] Like, you know, like, what kind of rooms?

Wayne Sermon [00:39:16] When we ever. We toured, like, I remember a show we did in Salt Lake had five people and one of them was a bartender. And that was like one of our better gigs because, you know, whenever we tried to go do anything outside of Utah or Las Vegas, like our first show in la, literally nobody was there. It was our manager watching us.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:42] So we went on before doors and played for nobody on stage now. So, so, like, you know, like, yes, you, you know, we had, we saw that it was possible by proxy, you know, by Dan's brothers, and, but practically, like, we, we had to do all the steps and it, we never got to open for the Killers or like, you know, they were, you know, they were friendly, but not like, they weren't helpful. Like, you know, hey, come do this or that. You know, they let us use their studio, which was actually very nice of them to do. So we got to record some songs in their studio, which is, which is pretty awesome. So thank you to them for that. But beyond that, it's like, it was a completely fluke, crazy thing that we even got signed.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] How did you guys make ends meet for years? Paying rent and food and surviving cars, insurance, when you're just like playing empty rooms?

Wayne Sermon [00:40:41] Yeah. Andrew and Brittany had jobs and they were married, so they, they actually worked for the Reynolds at the law office. And so they did that for part time. And then they, you know, we practiced in the evenings. I got, My parents gave me 200 bucks every three weeks. And, and I got to.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] Were you starving?

Wayne Sermon [00:40:59] No, I mean, not starving.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] Ramen?

Wayne Sermon [00:41:01] Yeah, ramen.

Alex Sermon [00:41:02] Oh, loaves of bread from Walmart with Nutella. That was like two of the three meals a day.

Wayne Sermon [00:41:09] So some ramen was in there, maybe some rice and beans. I definitely was.

Alex Sermon [00:41:13] Lots of rice.

Wayne Sermon [00:41:14] I never went hungry, but I, I, My nutrition intake was probably not optimal if I wasn't getting some of those vitamins and minerals I needed.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] But, and in those early years, what was your schedule then? Dan's not working either.

Wayne Sermon [00:41:27] He works the law office. He worked too. That. The law office.

Alex Sermon [00:41:29] Well, and what you guys did was you played shows at casinos and, well,

Wayne Sermon [00:41:33] the biggest income, you know, because I couldn't live off $200, you know, but we would play casinos and do half covers, half originals.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] What does that mean? What does that mean?

Wayne Sermon [00:41:44] Half covers or other people like Rolling Stones. And what would be your.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Go to bands for covers?

Wayne Sermon [00:41:49] Oh, anything we liked, you know, mgmt, Rolling Stones, the Beatles, the Cars, Clash. Just songs people would know.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] 80s music.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:00] Yeah, we liked 80s music. We liked. You know, we play some, like Third Eye Blind, Little 90s. We even did a Britney Spears cut. I mean, we did everything. Whatever was fun.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Did you like that?

Wayne Sermon [00:42:09] Yeah, it was better. It's better than working in an office. You know, it's like.

Alex Sermon [00:42:13] What hours was it.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:14] It was weird hours. They were my kind of hours.

Alex Sermon [00:42:16] They were like.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] So you'd play at a casino and what would the people be doing? Would they be there to see you or just background heavens. Were they pulling jack? You know, like jackpot, whatever they're called. Slot machine.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:26] They were there to do. They were there to do everything but listen to a live band.

Alex Sermon [00:42:30] Yeah, it felt like a lot of people that were there on conferences and then kind of let loose at night. It was the best kind of people watching.

John Dehlin [00:42:37] Okay, wait, so you. Were you there during this time?

Alex Sermon [00:42:39] I was.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] Okay, so we need to integrate Alex back in.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:42] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:42:42] Okay, wait, so where do we go back to? Let's get Alex back in here.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:46] So.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:46] So what. When did we start?

Alex Sermon [00:42:47] I mean, what'd you meet? We met while he was still at Berkeley. He.

John Dehlin [00:42:51] Oh, okay, let's. Let's go there.

Alex Sermon [00:42:53] Probably the last.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] What were you doing in Boston?

Alex Sermon [00:42:55] No, actually, I was at byu, so he would come back to visit for Thanksgiving or Christmas. And I was friends. Actually, Brittany is my best friend, so it's always so confusing to say this story, but basically Brittany was my random freshman roommate at Deseret Tower. Yep. And we got placed together and we became immediate best friends. So our junior or sophomore junior year, she marries Andrew. And Andrew is Daniel's friend from American Fork growing up the drummer. So basically I'm in this friend group. And so when he'd come home for holidays, we would meet. I had another boyfriend.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:39] I didn't swoop. Another example didn't swoop.

Alex Sermon [00:43:43] Who was also in that group. But I knew, like, the minute we met, it was trouble. I just felt like we kind of finished each other's sentences and sandwiches or.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Sentences.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:53] Yeah, I thought it too.

Alex Sermon [00:43:56] He was like. I just felt like he was a witty, a wittier version of myself. And so it was kind of trouble. But we were just friends for probably a year at least or two before anything happened.

Wayne Sermon [00:44:10] Because the guy you were dating have to be my really good friend too.

Alex Sermon [00:44:12] Yeah, there was that.

Wayne Sermon [00:44:14] So, you know, just to be Clear. I. I kept my distance, just like with the band.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] You're a good boy.

Wayne Sermon [00:44:21] I was a good boy. We never talked or, like, you know, call each other. It was nothing like that.

Alex Sermon [00:44:26] Right. It was just one of those things that I met him and I. I eventually saw him play. I feel like you joined the band before we actually started dating, but I just. I felt like once I was around him, he was just a person that I knew would have to be in my life in some capacity. I didn't know if I'd get to be with him romantically or whatever, but I just felt like I had to have him. I had to have, like. I mean, I thought his music was so incredible, the way he played. I just knew that I had to have that thing in my life in some way.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] Wow.

Alex Sermon [00:45:04] Yeah. So anyway.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:06] So you guys broke up?

Alex Sermon [00:45:08] We broke up a month later. A month passed. There was just silence.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:12] A month. I didn't do anything.

Alex Sermon [00:45:13] There was no swooping. A month later.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:15] A month's pretty good, right?

John Dehlin [00:45:16] That's great. Great restraint.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] Congratulations.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:20] And then we happened to talk and.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] And you were still in Boston.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:25] I graduated. Right.

Alex Sermon [00:45:27] You had just graduated probably then and came back, and a month later, we just started talking. And then once we were actually together in person, we just.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Sparks flew.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:39] It was pretty immediate.

Alex Sermon [00:45:40] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:41] First day, it was like, all right, done.

Alex Sermon [00:45:43] We're done.

John Dehlin [00:45:44] And you hadn't been dating. You had been on cold storage, kind of.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:47] Yeah, I dated a little bit, but only because I had to. It's like I go on blind dates or, you know, people set up. Set up people for me, and I just. I don't know what it was. I just. I never. I always knew I wouldn't meet. Who. Whoever I married on some kind of. Like, I would be friends with them first. Right. You know, I just wanted. I wanted to look for a friend that could be something more. And so that's exactly what ended up happening.

Alex Sermon [00:46:12] Enter Alex.

Wayne and Alex Meet and Fall in Love

John Dehlin [00:46:14] So where were you in school when you guys met? Were you done?

Alex Sermon [00:46:17] I was in my last. I was finishing up my. I guess it would technically be my senior year. I was probably in that last semester when we started dating. And then that summer, we were dating more seriously. So I moved to Vegas, into the house.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Did you have plans like your career dreams? Professional dreams?

Alex Sermon [00:46:37] You know, I was studying journalism. I was just killing it on that Daily Universe cover story after cover story. I actually did break a few stories, which was pretty entertaining. Got picked up by eight.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] What kind of stories did you break?

Alex Sermon [00:46:50] There was some big drama between the U&BYU. The U usually does the Shakespeare show at BYU, and they made it kind of raunchy one year, and they were about to perform at byu, and I interviewed them, and I was like, I mean, I perform at byu, and I know, like, it was at the. I mean, BYU was so strict for ballet. I mean, we were not allowed to wear solid black because someone complained one year that they could squint their eyes and visual us naked. Like, visualize this naked.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:23] Yeah, baby.

Alex Sermon [00:47:24] So, like, we'd have to, like, break it up with, like, a belt or something. So. Was just weird. And so anyway, they were wearing, like, these bustiers and stuff. And so all I did was submit the photos for, you know, the show that was coming the next week. And then this relationship that had been going on for years and years, they canceled the show. And so anyway, it was a big drama.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:45] You caused some drama.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] You were just.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:48] Drama follows you around.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] Were you, like, being a troublemaker or what?

Alex Sermon [00:47:51] No. I mean, it felt. I mean, I felt kind of awful about it just because I was somehow involved. And I really did want to see that show at BYU and see the reactions. I was ready to go and write the next story on it, but obviously didn't happen. But I went to the show up at the U. They did it outside of the Gardens, and it was amazing. I can't remember if it was Macbeth or what it was, but it was a fascinating interpretation of it. Yeah. So anyway, what were you saying?

John Dehlin [00:48:20] So you graduated byu?

Alex Sermon [00:48:22] Yeah, so I'm not technically graduated. I still had one more semester.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:25] Okay.

Alex Sermon [00:48:27] Because I did dance for so long, and that was so many hours of my time. But I didn't want to be a dance major, so I wanted to spend as much time as I could dancing while still doing print journalism.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] Did you want to become a professional dancer? Ballerina? Work for a touring company?

Alex Sermon [00:48:43] I mean, again, I. I said a little bit earlier that I. I had a little bit of disordered eating and things, so I. I knew mentally I. I kind of had to be done for a little bit. And we can talk about later, but later I dance professionally with a company after taking a couple years off just to get myself in order. But I had the intention of probably writing for some online publication. And so. So I first went when we started being more serious about dating. I went and lived with Brittany and Andrew, which was a separate property. Not living together while we were dating.

Alex Sermon [00:49:19] The back house, kind of of the house they were all living in, and so I could do an internship over the summer. And we could kind of date in person while he pursued the band. Then I went back to BYU for a semester, and then we, you know, got engaged and blah, blah, blah. But yeah, so I was just, I was at the end of my college career, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] And as you were considering Wayne for a potential husband, how did. And nobody envisions a rock band ever being successful, right? So how did that figure into. And you came from Orange county and probably a middle class or upper middle class family. Like, what are your parents thinking and what are you thinking about Rockstar?

Wayne Sermon [00:50:03] Basically, what were you thinking?

John Dehlin [00:50:04] An aspiring rock star? Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:50:07] Yeah. I don't know. I mean, maybe it's because I'm also an artist. It's just you don't think of, like, I know that feeling that when you're destined or you feel destined to do something, you just do it and you can't really control it. Like, if anyone told me not to dance, there was. I just, I couldn't even contemplate that because that was just so a part of how I communicated and how I live my life. And, And I knew the same from him from the moment I met him. So the idea of having him not do that was not even in the realm of possibility to me, because I understand that feeling. And surprisingly, my parents were really supportive. Like, we had just.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] You both have rad parents, right?

Alex Sermon [00:50:48] We really do. Like, we'd been dating a month, and he came to visit my family over Christmas in Huntington, and they got a New Year show in Vegas, like, last minute, and my parents just drove up with us and went to the show. My dad the whole time was like, whose song is this? And I was like, oh, this is one of their originals. And he's like, nah, I think I've heard it before. I'm like, no, dad, they just wrote this one. You know, it's just, I think they could tell from the beginning that it was another level, you know, and that it wasn't just some kid in a band that just was kind of like avoiding real life. It was something that he took really seriously. And I don't know, it was, it was your gift.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:27] So, I mean, how could you resist? 500 bucks in my bank account looked good. Double it when we get married. Boom.

Alex Sermon [00:51:36] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] So you were just heart led. You were just saying, I, I love Wayne, Daniel. I, I, I believe in what he's doing. They're good, right? I want to be. I can't imagine my life without him.

Alex Sermon [00:51:48] I mean, he was constantly just. I mean, I don't Know if you can tell, I don't know how our personalities are coming across in this because.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:55] Terrible.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] Charming.

Alex Sermon [00:51:56] We're very novice.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] Delightful, charming. Witty.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:59] Sweaty. Clever.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Intelligent.

Alex Sermon [00:52:00] Sweaty.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:02] I turned the AC up by the

Alex Sermon [00:52:03] way, so I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] Mobile phones for the win. Smartphones for the win.

Alex Sermon [00:52:07] Right. So he would constantly apologize and not really apologize, just be like, I'm a musician, I want to be doing this in some way, shape or form and, and we're probably not going to make a lot of money, but there will be food on the table, which is not just his responsibility, but I understand as a male Mormon that that's on his mind. But he, he just would constantly just reassure me that, you know, we may not be wealthy but you know, we'll be wealthy in love or whatever.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:36] Certainly won't be wealthy.

Alex Sermon [00:52:36] Yeah. But you know, it just, it didn't matter to me. And yes, I did grow up in Orange county, but I was kind of one of the least wealthy of any of my friends. And you know, we didn't own a home, we rented, we moved around. So it wasn't quite the, the ideal. I mean not the ideal, but what you would think of an Orange county upbringing probably. So it's not like I had a silver spoon and was expecting that I always worked and so yeah, I mean it wasn't, it wasn't even really a question. I was just head over heels.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:07] So.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] And then, and then Wayne, what, what, what did you love about Alex or what it tried to you?

Wayne Sermon [00:53:12] Oh, Alex has ended up being the single greatest decision I've ever made. And as far as like a net positive choice, it's like go into detail.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] I want to hear next level.

Alex Sermon [00:53:23] Don't do it.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] Yeah, do it, do it. I want to hear it.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:26] Well, I mean she's just like the girl I didn't know I was waiting for really. I mean she didn't give a crap about any of my hang ups at all as a good Mormon girl. Didn't care. I didn't serve a full time mission at all. Loved my music. It's like this is crazy. Like this is, this is not the norm. And you know, I think

Alex Sermon [00:53:55] I don't

Wayne Sermon [00:53:55] want to get emotional in every aspect of my life, not only personally, but even professionally. Like, you know, we can talk about this down the road. But like there was a time when the band was in a very unsure place when Andrew and Brittany had left and I felt like I was right, I was next and me and Dan talked and it's like, you know, maybe we should just quit and just maybe this whole thing needs to fall apart because we had been slogging for so long and I had the kind of girlfriend or wife at the time that said no, you need to keep doing this.

Wayne Sermon [00:54:32] And so, you know, she's a huge reason that I mean I was even stayed in the band in the first place because she believed in me. And so not only in like every single aspect as far as our incredible children who I adore beyond anything and herself. It's like in my professional life it's. She's as much a reason to imagine dragons is still a thing as anything I think. So I owe everything to her.

Wayne Sermon [00:54:58] She. Everyone knows I'm nothing without her. Everyone knows that we're a pair. We go in pairs everywhere and we're inseparable. And that is enough of that cheesiness. I'm sorry everyone.

Alex Sermon [00:55:11] It was beautiful, but I'm embarrassed.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:13] I know it's too much gag.

John Dehlin [00:55:17] I love it.

Part 3 of 5 · Ep. 1183

John Dehlin [00:00:30] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to my interview with Daniel Wayne Sermon, lead guitarist of Imagine Dragons, and Alexandra hall, ballerina and mother and thinker and amateur journalist at one point. And we're just loving our conversation with the sermons.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] And we've. We've gotten two hours so far talking about their upbringing and, you know, Daniel's time as a musician, his. His time at Berkeley College of Music in Boston, Alex's time growing up in Orange county, but also at BYU and being a journalism major and ballerina.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] And we. We left off at the end of Part two with them sort of meeting and. And Alex moving to Las Vegas, where Wayne had joined forces with Dan Reynolds and other friends to start trying to make Imagine Dragons a real thing. But it was a slog. So last we left it, they're playing the empty rooms in LA and playing casinos where they're kind of background music playing cover. Half cover songs and half their own original music.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And so I'm just dying to know where things go from here. So. So I have a question about your. Both of your spiritual lives by the time you meet and you're living in Vegas. So. So, Wayne, you had spent four years in Boston, is that right?

Wayne Sermon [00:02:07] Three.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Three years in Boston. Not dating. But you said, at least at the beginning, you were attending singles awards, so. And then even all the way through meeting Alex and kind of like, as you're talking about marriage, I want to hear what your spiritual journey was like during that time. And then, Alex, I want to hear yours, and then we'll talk about your marriage and what your visions were for the future.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:28] Cool. I mean, I would say that I was, after college, I was still very much a faithful member, had a temple recommend.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] And Boston didn't corrupt you?

Wayne Sermon [00:02:37] Boston did not corrupt me.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] That's pretty interesting because you were with all these students that were secular, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:02:42] Yeah. But, you know, it's like you're set apart from the world. So it's, you know, it's like you can be, like Alex said, you're of

John Dehlin [00:02:51] the world, but in the world, but not of the world.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:53] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Thank you.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:54] So I kind of had that mentality still. It's like, yeah, I. It's fine. I can be in the world, but kind of still be, you know, I'm special. We have all the answers. It's like that kind of mentality of like, you know, being set above the world or something. I don't know exactly.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] But you were trying to be super righteous.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:13] Yeah, trying to be really righteous and devout.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] So you went to your ward every Week or most weeks.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:18] Went to war, went to church. Yeah, I was. I'm. You know, I don't want to give the impression that I was. I was not at the top of the heap as far as, like, righteousness. I was sort of. I did everything, but I was. I never felt like there's always people that you could see that you could look to that were even more spiritual or, you know, stronger testimonies and all that stuff. So I was probably in the middle of the pack, I guess, as far as my quality of commerce.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] But in terms of your commitment and.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:47] And, yeah, my commitment was strong.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Okay. Okay. And how about you, Alex? So I get.

Alex Sermon [00:03:54] I would put. I probably say I was similar. I. I mean, I was the kind of student who got the callings where you'd, like, pass out the hymn books where you get to, like, pick the song. So I never really was.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] You weren't Relief Society president?

Alex Sermon [00:04:07] No, I was not Relief Society president. I didn't have that aura about me, however, I was going through the motions. I mean, I still had that mindset of, you know, future me. We'll get that once I get married in the temple. I mean, once I go through the temple, those questions and answers will be found. And so I guess that's probably where I was. I. I was still hopeful for the future, but I don't feel like I had a firm grasp in my own mind. But probably to the outside world, I was a true believing, faithful member.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:04:49] I guess. Yeah.

Marriage, the Temple, and Early Band Struggles

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Okay, so when you guys meet and start dating and you know that it. You're. You're probably going to get married. Was there an unstated or stated sort of like, this is what our life is going to be? This is, you know, are we going to get married in the temple? We're going to do the Mormon thing. Like, was. How was that? As you guys were starting to realize you were going to get married?

Alex Sermon [00:05:11] I feel like it was just understood. Right. I mean, I don't think we had a lot of church conversations, probably any, but it was just, you go to church, you've gone through the temple, I'm gonna go through the temple, we're gonna get married there. Our families are faithful. It was just understood.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:29] Yeah. Were we just terrible cultural Mormons? I mean.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] No.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:33] Thinking about it now, it's like you're

John Dehlin [00:05:34] like every other Mormon almost. Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:36] I mean. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] Insecure.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Maybe so comparing to others, but. But doing your best.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:41] Yeah. I would say that's probably fair.

John Dehlin [00:05:43] Devout.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:43] Yeah. A temple marriage was. Was implied, and that's what we did eventually. But it's like. But looking back at it, it's like we never were the kind of people that, like, had looked at each other's eyes and, like, isn't the church amazing? Or like, can you believe?

Alex Sermon [00:05:57] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:57] We didn't pray together, really pray together. Like, it's not like we talked about how our testimonies. And, like, we didn't bear our testimonies to each other or like, some of the things that maybe other couples might do and maybe they don't. I don't. I don't know. But we never talked about, really, church outside of church. It was not like we just made out a lot. Your mother's listening. No, there's. No.

Alex Sermon [00:06:20] We talked about everything else.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:21] Our first kiss was on the altar. That's not true.

Alex Sermon [00:06:27] No, I mean, I felt like we talked about everything. We. A lot of our relationship was long distance because he was in Vegas, so that kind of granted us the opportunity to really get to know each other just on the phone. And, I mean, it was kind of all we had except for those weekends that we were together, minus that semester. I did an internship in Vegas, but the church didn't really come up too much.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:06:52] Interesting.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:53] I mean, it's like. That's kind of how my family was too growing. It's not like we had, like, anyone in my family, like, sat each other down and just talked about Joseph Smith, you know, it's like it was all just like sort of this implied thing that.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] It's like salt to the meal.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:04] Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] It's not the meal. It's. Yeah, but it's on every meal.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:09] Isn't it kind of weird, though? It's like. It's just like this underlying foundation of everything, but it's like you live your life upon it and you don't interact with it except for, like, maybe on Sundays or, like, you know, it's just. It's.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] I'd say that's actually more the norm. I mean, where you guys stray from the norm is that you didn't go to byu, Wayne, and you didn't rush into marriage three or four months, you know, get engaged. That's where you were different.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:31] Right?

Alex Sermon [00:07:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] You took your time to become close friends.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:34] Gotcha. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:07:35] Right. Yeah. And we still even. We had known each other for a year, and we still dated for a year before we got engaged.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] That's. That's 99th percentile. Or weird, you know, for Mormonism.

Alex Sermon [00:07:46] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] Yeah, but that's. But it's a good foundation for relationship.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Okay, so you decide to get married. Is that the next part of the story? Where do we go from here?

Wayne Sermon [00:07:55] Got married in the San Diego temple about a couple hours from Alex's house

Alex Sermon [00:08:00] and actually had a great. Who was it?

Wayne Sermon [00:08:03] The officiator.

Alex Sermon [00:08:04] Officiator.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:07] Should remember these people's names, probably.

John Dehlin [00:08:08] Were you stoked to get married in the temple? Was that like a lifelong dream?

Alex Sermon [00:08:13] I mean, yeah, it's. It's the dream. Just because that's where you get married. I guess. I. I mean, I went through the temple the week before. I went through the Newport beach temple with our families, and then we got married the next weekend so that, you know, people told me to kind of break it up so that I wasn't overwhelmed.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] Is there anything you want to say about your experience going through the temple?

Alex Sermon [00:08:35] Yeah, I didn't like that we sacrificed anim.

John Dehlin [00:08:38] No, she's kidding.

Alex Sermon [00:08:39] Kidding, kidding, kidding.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:41] Too much. Too much blood. Far too much blood.

Alex Sermon [00:08:43] No, actually, they all joked with me before going in that that's what would happen.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:47] You're not.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] That you were all naked the whole time, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:08:49] This is how you slaughter an ox.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Everybody's naked.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:52] This is the proper way of kidding everybody.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] You wear clothes.

Alex Sermon [00:08:56] No, I actually, I was. You know, I kept thinking. I think, because I worried that it was so weird. I'm a worrier. So I just worried that it was going to be so weird. I was kind of like, oh, you know, all right. I was slightly disappointed. I thought they would just kind of answer some questions just straight out. But I. I mean, I was just so giddy to get married.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] It wasn't a deeply disturbing experience for you. It was just like, I don't, you

Alex Sermon [00:09:21] know, I don't know how much went through that first time. And then I really was just like, we're getting married in a week. This is what you do. And, sure, you know, kind of look, you know, I felt like it was little quirky, but, yeah, I did. I. Yeah, I guess some of the, like, more ritualistic things, I. I felt uncomfortable. Maybe some of the wording of things felt uncomfortable, but I. I don't know. I think at that. I was 22. I still had that mindset of. I'll understand this later. I. I'm. I'm not spiritually able to understand it. I mean, these people are better than me. They're, you know, they have far greater capacity to understand these things. And I will one day. And smart men like my dad are in here, and he's a smart guy. So.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:10:11] You know. Yeah, that's kind of where I was.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] And Wayne, how much temple going did you do between your mission, MTC experience and getting married in the temple? Did you stay away or did you try.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:22] I still went, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] And the temple. Was your relationship with the temple pretty healthy or positive?

Wayne Sermon [00:10:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:31] I. I thought it was kind of weird, but you get used to these things and they become normal. Right.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] Or great or positive.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:36] Great or positive? And so I. It's not like it was like. Alex, I don't think it was as earth shattering an experience as you're led to believe growing up. It's just the ritual. Ritualistic aspects of it are a little strange.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] And by the time you guys went through, they had taken a lot of disturbing stuff.

Alex Sermon [00:10:55] Right? Yeah. And we didn't find out about that stuff till later.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:58] Yeah, it's like some of slightly culty, you know, not to bring out the C word. You know, that's a sensitive one. But. Right. There's a little. There are some. Some elements to it that kind of. We're a little strange, but yeah. It's like you get used to them.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:10] And your parents do it. It's like. Like you said, it's like my dad's doing it. It's normal. So it's all good. Okay. It's a little. Little strange, but just special and it's sacred and it's fine.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] So temple marriage, what year was that?

Alex Sermon [00:11:25] Yeah, let's say 11. I want to say. Yeah, we should know this, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:29] It's always one big blur.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] No, it's fine. 2011. Okay. So you're married in the temple back in Vegas, trying to make Imagine Dragons successful.

Alex Sermon [00:11:40] Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I think at that time we just gotten married and everyone kind of was. I. I feel like that's kind of when things started to take hit like a turning point of whether they were going to continue as a band and at this rate, because it wasn't really livable.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] So what happened? So the bands.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:59] Yeah, I mean, we were doing the show. You know, we.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Tell us the band members again at the time.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:03] Andrew, Brittany, Ben, Dan, me and who played what? Ben Bass. Dan saying Brittany play keyboard.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] So you had a female keyboard player in an original in an early iteration of Imagine Dragons. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:12:18] So, yeah, I mean, we were. It's not like we were standing still. We were definitely progressing and the crowds were getting bigger. We could sell out the velour, which is a really big deal. Oh, wow. So it's not like we weren't we weren't improving or growing, but it's like, you know, both. I mean, everyone's expectations was like, this is not just gonna be like some fun thing that we're doing with our friends. This is a career. We're very serious about it. We're, you know, we're rehearsing six hours a day some days.

Alex Sermon [00:12:42] Yeah, they treated it like we treated a normal job, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] And just for those who don't know, like selling out the Velo, it's not like it's a 20,000 person stadium. It's a little club in Provo, Utah that probably the maximum capacity is what,

Wayne Sermon [00:12:57] 300, I think 300 people.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] Having said that, by the time you're playing at the Velour, the Killers would have been a global act.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:05] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Brandon Flowers and Neon Trees, who had. Who had also filled up, you know, filled up. The Velour would have started having success. So there would. There would have been this vibe where, wow, if we can do well in Provo, there's precedence for others making. Making it big.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:22] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] Is that right? Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:24] Yeah, so, yeah, it was cool, you know.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] So you were saying you could sell

Wayne Sermon [00:13:30] the Velour, but selling the Velour, but it's like there's a big gap between that and actually making.

Alex Sermon [00:13:36] Being on the radio.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:38] Yeah. Velour is. Is obviously a rite of passage and it's a sacred place that, you know, we all love it and we love Corey Fox who runs it. But, you know, and we were doing well enough in Vegas, you know, places like the Beauty Bar and the Bunk House. You know, we were, we were. We were becoming somewhat known as a local band, but there's started to play

Alex Sermon [00:13:57] at the Viper Room, I think in la. So things were happening. It was just.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] What types of crowds then at this point?

Wayne Sermon [00:14:03] Pretty good ones.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Like, yeah, 100 people.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:05] What's a good.

Alex Sermon [00:14:06] I would say all those venues would

John Dehlin [00:14:07] be a couple hundred and you started having fans that. Yeah, but you hadn't recorded anything yet.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:13] We had eps.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:14] Yeah, several.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] Would anyone recognize the songs of.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:17] I think the only couple that have really made it. Or like Hear Me and like Amsterdam, it's time. That's probably the.

Alex Sermon [00:14:26] But there are some great stuff, great ones that catalog.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:29] But I mean, so it's like progress was being made, but it was so slow and it's like, are we just gonna. Are we a joke at this point? Like, are we being taken? Like all the doubts that you have a musician just multiply when, when you add time to the equation. And so I think, especially, I think really hard on Andrew and Brittany because, you know, they were a married couple and they had dropped out of school to pursue this. And, you know, none of us were seeing, like, it blow off, blow up like we thought it needed to. And so there's a lot of soul searching going on during that time.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:59] And eventually they decided, you know, that they'd had enough of this particular project and they wanted to go pursue other things, finish school. And so that's what they did. And so they left. And they've both been really successful in their own rights doing music. And Brittany has a really great job now, too, so they've done well for themselves.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:19] And it was kind of at that time that me and Dan sort of just. I remember him calling me and just being like, okay, like. And I was planning on maybe quitting.

Alex Sermon [00:15:30] How many?

John Dehlin [00:15:31] Two year. Two, Two. Three years in?

Wayne Sermon [00:15:33] Yeah, like, two or three years in.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Probably in Vegas.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Dan calls you up. Yeah. And two of the band members quit.

Imagine Dragons Breaks Through and Signs a Record Deal

Wayne Sermon [00:15:38] Yeah, to the band members quit. It's like, yo, like, what's going on? And I was. I was thinking maybe I would too. And I talked to Alex and she just. And my. Both her and my parents. I have to say, those were the two people that were like, the two groups of people that were like, no, you have to keep doing this. There's something here. Don't give up.

Alex Sermon [00:15:54] It's like, you know that feeling when you're on the brink of something? It just felt like, you know, that tipping point where something was going to happen. I. I can't explain it, but maybe it was a spirit.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:06] So.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] So yeah, the third. The other band member that remained.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:09] You and Ben. Ben was still into Ben. Ben.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] And Ben was from Berkeley.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:13] Yes. Okay. So this whole time, Ben was very much.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] And again, he plays bass. Bass.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:18] And he was. He was very much for it still. He still believed in the project.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] Really?

Wayne Sermon [00:16:22] Yes, absolutely. So he.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] He did not waver, he didn't waiver,

Wayne Sermon [00:16:25] and he, you know, he sacrificed a lot to be in the band. He just. He dropped out of Berkeley to come join us in Vegas. Not knowing anybody or anything about the band, really, and just trusting in my subjective taste, which is, you know, that's a lot of trust to put into somebody. So he was always unwavering about it. And it just. It was me and Dan sort of being like, okay, what do we do? Like, if you're still in, maybe I'm still in. But if you're maybe not in, maybe. Maybe I'm not in either.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] Wow. And this is what year?

Wayne Sermon [00:16:53] Gosh. Don't ask these hard questions.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] 11.

Alex Sermon [00:16:55] I know. I want to say it was right after we got married.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:58] I think it probably was. 11.

Alex Sermon [00:16:59] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:00] I think it was right after we got married.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:02] And so we decided we're not done. And so we brought in Daniel Platzman.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Who. So how'd you reach out?

Wayne Sermon [00:17:09] I. I just reached out to him, called him, or maybe Ben did. I don't remember exactly. But we called him and he sent in an audition video. I still have it on my computer.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] What was he doing during these years?

Wayne Sermon [00:17:18] He was playing jazz in New York. He's extremely gifted jazz drummer. Okay. Just musician in general. He plays everything in it.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] He's like, how'd you make the case to him? How'd you make the case to him? Because, I mean, you're questioning the band yourself. Yeah, but you've got to convince this dude to leave New York and come to Vegas.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:35] I mean, it wasn't like the toughest at that point because we had a following. You know, it was small, but, like, we were making some money. You know, we were making. It wasn't enough to really call it a career, but it was something. It was probably. Maybe it was more than he was making being a jazz drummer in New York, so.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:49] And I think he also just trusted Ben and trusted. Trusted me a little bit too, and this felt like a fun thing to do. And Ben and Platz are really good friends anyway, and so he said, sure. So he dropped what he was doing and moved to Vegas and we decided to give it another go. And about three months after that, three or four months after that, someone in la, an assistant of Alex, the kid, who is a pretty big producer in la, happened to just give him rep said because I guess we played an LA show recently and gave him the cd and Alex, like the songs enough to reach out to us and just said. Emailed, our manager said, yo, your songs are dope.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] Now he's done. Tell us some of. I read about him. Some of the other artists.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:35] Yeah, like Rihanna, Eminem, that pob.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] Like the way you love the way. Yeah, that's a great song.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:43] Yeah. Yeah, right. So he's. He, yeah. Always had a really good ear for this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] And so some hip hop, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:18:48] Hip hop. Mostly hip hop.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:49] Yep. Some pop too, but a lot of hip hop. And so we're like, okay, well, you know, we don't say no to anything.

John Dehlin [00:18:55] So. What does he say?

Wayne Sermon [00:18:56] He says. He just emails our manager, says, yo, your songs are dope. Let's get together and what is going to be known as the worst accent?

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Is he an African American dude?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:06] It's ever been heard.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] Is he.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:07] He's British. He's British, but yeah, he's black.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] Okay. And had you heard of him before?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:14] Yeah, just as a producer, you know, on the scene. He had a name for himself, obviously, because he made some of the biggest hits.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] And was Matt, was Mac working with you at this point?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:22] He's our manager.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] So Mac was your manager. So he emails Mac. And what did you guys think? Like, was that like, well, this is our break?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:29] Or was like, like, wow, like, this is crazy. You know, who knows what'll happen? But let's at least dip our toes in and see what happens.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:37] You know, it's like, we never say no to anything. Never say no to life. Never say no to an opportunity. You're an idiot if you do.

Alex Sermon [00:19:43] Yeah, I feel like that was definitely the. The thought of the band at the time. They said yes to everything. And sometimes it.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:49] For instance, too much. Opening for a mime? Yes.

Alex Sermon [00:19:52] You say yes.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:53] Open for a birthday party? Bar mitzvah?

Alex Sermon [00:19:54] Yes.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] Did you do bar mitzvah?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:56] We did everything.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] You're. You're not joking?

Wayne Sermon [00:19:58] We did everything. We did every birthday party. You know, we literally opened for a mime in a mall. And when we went on, all the. All the stores closed because we were making too much noise. So literally all the stores closed their gates because they were so annoyed by our music.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:17] So. And that's why, like, this whole thing is, like, what we realized. And, like, this is only in retrospect, but you have to do it yourself. Like, as a band, you can't rely on a connection. You can't just say, hey, we know the killer is they'll make us famous, like. And, like, yeah, it wouldn't have worked. It wouldn't have worked that way. And I think the Killers knew that too. It's like every band has to make up by their own accord and yet you have to earn your stripes. So I'm glad that we earned our stripes and we did it the hard way because that's the only way to do it.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] I hate. I hate to make a comparison to the Beatles. I'm sure you hate that. But you read about the Beatles and there's the hamburgers where they're. They leave Liverpool, they play some stuff in London, but they end up going to Hamburg, going to some, I don't know, skanky bar slash dance hall on a platform, and for like a couple Years, I don't know. They're just playing night after night after night, people throwing beer bottles at them, like, you know, like, doing whatever they can to survive. And Ringo wasn't with him yet. Like, still Pete Best. But those years of just time on task is what I call it, you know.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] Time on task is what gets you there, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:21:28] Yeah, sir. I mean, certainly no comparison as far as talent, but I think our experience was the same as far as just time on stage. I mean, there's. You have to. That's the only way to really get better at performing is if you do it every day. You know, you become a good interviewer by. Because, you know, based on the soul fact, you do it all the time. So you have to. You have to put in your time. And so we were lucky to. That's a lot of stage time bands don't get. And they would kill for. It's like, you know. Yeah, you have to pay for a bunch of people that might not want to hear you. And they're there for other things. So you have to, like, might be

Alex Sermon [00:21:59] in the middle of the night.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:00] Yes. And so you have to, like, kind of learn how to get their attention. I think Dan really honed in on being a frontman by those kinds of things, because you have to grab their attention, literally, because they're looking at a slot machine. So you have to somehow figure out a way to capture them.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] And so what's the mentality when you're. When you're playing at a casino and nobody's paying attention and you're done for the night and you're like. You're, you know, packing up? Is it like, okay, what can we do better? Or is it, like, what are we doing? Nobody's listening. Like, how did you keep motivated playing to crowds who necessarily weren't paying attention? And what was the. Was there an iterative cycle of improvement?

Wayne Sermon [00:22:39] We were definitely improving, and our own shows were growing in size, and so that was encouraging. And even, like, the shows we were doing, we were like, we got to do Mandalay Bay, which. Which was a. You know, it's still a cover show, but, like, it paid, like, $2,000 for four hours, you know, 11 to three. So that. I mean, that's a big deal. And that. That's. That beats a lot of. A lot of work. People have worked a lot harder for less than that. So we were happy to take it.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] But were you constantly honing the craft? It's like, oh, yeah, on this song. Do this next time on.

Alex Sermon [00:23:10] For sure, they were Constantly giving notes.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] I loved what you did on. What do you mean by that? What does that mean, giving notes?

Alex Sermon [00:23:15] Oh, I mean, during rehearsals and things when I would be there, it was always directing each other. Just, hey, that was great. However, could you. Yeah, you know, same thing with their songwriting. I felt like they were very collaborative that way and always trying to make each other better, from what I saw.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] Okay, so once. Platz. Platz.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:34] Is that right?

John Dehlin [00:23:34] Once he joined, talk about the creative roles that each member of the band might play, just to give a sense for. Did people have different roles as you were trying to improve your craft?

Wayne Sermon [00:23:45] Yeah, I think, you know, Dan certainly became a strong. A stronger and stronger writer the more he did it. You know, he writes all the lyrics, all the melodies, you know.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Did that bum you out? It's like, hey, I want to write lyrics. No, you don't. You're like Elton John. You didn't want to write.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:57] I'm cool.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:58] Yeah, that's. That's. That's his. That's his scope.

Alex Sermon [00:24:01] And it's very personal thing, which is why he's so good at it, is because he means everything he says because he wrote it.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] So he always wrote the lyrics from the beginning. And you were cool with that?

Wayne Sermon [00:24:10] Yeah. I mean, we'd have little suggestions on a word change here or there, but.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:13] By and large, it was him.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Okay. And so what else? So he did the words.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:17] Yeah, yeah. And we just, you know, we write music as a band and.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] Does he. Did he usually come up with the melodies? Was it a collaborative?

Wayne Sermon [00:24:23] Yeah, usually the music was first. There was always music. Some kind of music to sing to.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] So did that start with you? Sometimes, yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:29] Started with him, started with me, started with the other guys.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] You'll just like, hey, let me play this. Let me play this melody, or let me play.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:35] Or sometimes we, like, write whole tracks since, you know, we all have computers and were producers and, you know, he. Dan, would either write tracks himself and then sing to him, or else we'd send him stuff and he'd sing to it, and then we'd just hash it all out in the studio, and that's. That's what the songs became. This quarter, this mishmash of this.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Do you like that creative process?

Wayne Sermon [00:24:55] Yeah, absolutely. It's what's worked. Yeah, it's what's worked.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] And it's not the most enjoyable part of the whole thing, the creative process of writing the songs and. Or is it the performance? Or is it.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:07] They're so different. I feel like the performance aspect is a lot more fun in that you just get to enjoy the, the fruits of it. Whereas in the. When you're in the studio, you have to like the. My. The minutia is like under severe scrutiny all the time. Like the cymbal doesn't sound right here. This guitar part sucks. Or you know, you look at everything with the really closely and so it can be a little monotonous or like a little like, like tedious. It's tedious and it feeds my already OCD tendencies. So it's fun in a different way. It's the creativity of it is obviously off the charts. It's fun, it's amazing. But the performing, playing for fans, that's sort of the real big payoff.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] Okay, okay, so. Okay, cool. What else?

Wayne Sermon [00:26:00] So, yeah, so. So I guess to continue the story, we signed with Alex and is that a label?

Alex Sermon [00:26:09] He has an imprint on Interscope Records.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:13] So yeah, we signed a major deal, which was insane. I remember.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] What'd you have to do to convince him like he had heard the ep?

Wayne Sermon [00:26:19] Yeah, we just met with them, you know, started riding with them and kind of hit it off. And you know, we were sort of like minded in a lot of ways. And it seemed like he was just

John Dehlin [00:26:29] like, I believe in you guys. I want to make you big.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:31] Yeah. Is that it? That's basically what he said. It's like, I think you guys have something special and I want to help you. So it was kind of crazy. I remember where I, exactly where I was when Dan called me like it was four in the morning and he's like he had had a late night talking with Alex and he called me and said, yeah, I think, I think this might happen. I think he wants to maybe sign us. I think this is going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Is that considered a major label?

Wayne Sermon [00:26:54] Yeah, very much so.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] Who again?

Wayne Sermon [00:26:56] Alice? The kid.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] But the label.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:58] Oh, Interscope.

Alex Sermon [00:26:58] It's Kidney Corner.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:00] Yeah. Kidney Scope is his label, but Interscope is basically the imprint, so.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] So other bands that play for Interscope, you too. Oh, wow.

Alex Sermon [00:27:08] Lady Gaga, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:27:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Oh, there's no bigger.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:10] I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's one of the big boys for sure. Okay, so that's.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] So Dan. You said Dan called you and said this.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:17] Dan called me at four in the morning and I. That might be top three happiest moment of my life.

Alex Sermon [00:27:23] We were up in Park City and we were actually just kind of jumping on. His dad had a big conference up there for work and we were staying in one of the rooms they had an extra room. So we stayed in one of the rooms and we were so excited. We ran over to his parents hotel room at 4 in the morning and woke them up to tell them. And it was fun.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:42] They were, they were over the moon. They were just as happy as we were.

Alex Sermon [00:27:45] Confused at 4 in the morning, but excited.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:48] And so that's what we did. We got signed. It was crazy. And then. And again that hilarity ensued.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] 2011, huh? And 2011 and you start writing.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:59] Start writing with an album.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] What was that like having this new creative influence in the writing process? It was good.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:06] Yeah. I mean, it was. It felt natural. It felt like he was. He kind of morphed into our. Our thing pretty easily. I felt like, you know, he had a lot of input, he had a lot of ideas, a lot of stuff that helped us a lot. And so I think it was beneficial for both of us. I think, you know, we needed each other to. To make it where we were so very, you know, if things are worked out in any different way, you know, we would if this wouldn't have happened. There's no question about that. Things happened in just the right precise way. Meeting just the right people and at the right time. The right time. And so. So we make a record.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] So that was studio time. How much studio time for that first album?

Wayne Sermon [00:28:43] Lots.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] Like a week, two weeks, a month.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:46] Dan's. You know, Dan was in the studio constantly writing in la. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] You had to move. Did you all move to la? You moved to la? Like left. We're done with Vegas for now. Moved la?

Wayne Sermon [00:28:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Rented a house there.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:00] Just rented apartments.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:02] Yeah. And so, yeah, then we started to make a record and it was crazy.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] You know, you said Dan was what he was.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:08] He was constantly writing. He's writing more than he ever had. And I think that was something that Alex was really good at. Getting Dan to do is just like you have to just write a ton of songs, you know, it's not like for us, it's not like you write 10 songs and they go on an album, you're done. Let's hope for the best. Ever since that first album, we. It's at least 200 songs for an album.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] What?

Wayne Sermon [00:29:30] At least. And I think we're probably. I mean, what'd you say? You know, maybe some. Some albums were 250.

Alex Sermon [00:29:38] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:39] It's like you just have to keep writing and then you see what rises to the top. That's how we have written ever since. So it's like, you know, one in 10 songs might be a keeper. And so you can't be too attached to any one song. And so Dan is a lyricist and a songwriter. Writing that much, writing that many melodies. I mean, that's. I think that's really what made him the songwriter is today, from start to

John Dehlin [00:29:59] finish of your first album was how much time?

Wayne Sermon [00:30:02] Oh, six months probably. That's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Yes, well, but if you're gonna sift through 200 songs, write and sift through.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] And then. Perfect.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:11] Yeah. And it was. Yeah, it was. It was a lot of work.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] And the record company just covers the tabs for the studio time.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:17] Yeah, yeah, the record company covered it, which was nice to have. You know, that's the first time we ever really felt like we could just be in a studio and chill and actually think about things. Because every other time was like, we're on the clock, guys. Drums have to be done. One take for the drums, that's all we got because we don't have enough money to pay for any more time. So to actually be able to hang out and spend some time in the studio was.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Were you still performing during this, during those six months?

Wayne Sermon [00:30:43] Okay, okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] But in LA now?

Wayne Sermon [00:30:45] Yeah, mostly like western United States, but mostly.

Alex Sermon [00:30:48] Yeah, lots of little tours up the coast.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:51] Yeah, we tried to do everything as ourselves as much as we could. We didn't want to rely on anyone or anything. So we, you know, had these little circuits we did and we had fans in certain cities. Sacramento, you know, we had. We would have like 300 people show up in Sacramento, which was a really big deal. Or go up to Washington, Seattle, you know, mostly western part of the world of. I mean, of the United States. And so, you know, when the time came that.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] Were there some crowd favorites then before you? Before the.

Wayne Sermon [00:31:19] I think so. I think so, yeah. Like it's time always did pretty well with people. I think it resonated with people even then. But basically you try to make as much of a groundwork as you can on your own. And then when you do get signed, if you do get signed, then labels now like to see a work like a work that's something that's already working. Like labels don't take risks anymore. Like they used to. They could sign 10 bands if one blew up, that was good enough for them. Their ratios were fine. But now the way the music industry has changed, labels aren't as willing to take chances.

Wayne Sermon [00:31:55] And so as self proficient as a band can be, all the better because they want to see something that's already having dividends, that's Already showing signs of life, and then they can attach to it and make it better. So that's what we try to do. And I think that's also a big part of what. What made us successful.

John Dehlin [00:32:13] Okay, so six months in the studio, did you tell all your fans? We signed a deal, signed a record label? Like, was that news?

Wayne Sermon [00:32:19] I mean, not. I don't remember. I don't. It's not that kind of thing. You're like, hey, guys, guess what, guys? I think we just kind of did it. And Sally went silently, went away for a while, and came back when the album was done. Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:32:30] Once things were released, there were magazine covers and things like that. But before I.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] How are you feeling? Once they signed Alex, how did you feel? You were the one that believed in them, maybe when they didn't believe in themselves.

Alex Sermon [00:32:42] I mean, it was exciting, but we had known of bands personally that had been signed and dropped, so it's like you're elated, but you have to kind of temper that, knowing that it's still an unknown. It's not like, okay, now we're made in the shade and we're gonna have success for the rest of our career. So I think we were still pretty realistic.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:01] Yeah. I mean, 49 out of 50 bands in that situation end up being dropped by the label. You know what I mean? It's.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] Oh, so even if you're signed by the label.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:09] Oh, yeah. There's no guarantee that you're gonna, you know.

Alex Sermon [00:33:11] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:11] We were still prepared to be very poor and to just, you know, that's

John Dehlin [00:33:15] a 2% chance of success after signing.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:18] Yeah, it's. It's. It's.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] Did I get that in math la?

Alex Sermon [00:33:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] Okay, so it's still not.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:22] It's still not a done deal. Like, I mean, how many, like, worldwide. Worldwide bands really are there? You know, it's. So you got to be, you know, you do the math like you. You did, and it doesn't look pretty. So we were very. We tried to make the odds as good as we could with any work we could do, but beyond that, we knew that there was a really good chance that we were still. You know, who could imagine that it would have turned out the way it did? Certainly not me.

The Rise to Fame and Life on Tour

John Dehlin [00:33:48] Okay. Okay. So you finish the album and then what happens? The first album is called Night.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:55] Night Visions. Yes. And. And then chaos ensued in the songs.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] Some of the biggest hits on Night Visions or what?

Wayne Sermon [00:34:03] Radioactive It's Time was on there. Demons on top of the world.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] Great songs.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:09] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] So, yeah. So what do you mean? So the album drops and you're thinking, what is Spotify existing at this point?

Wayne Sermon [00:34:16] Well, I remember starting. Yeah, just starting. And it wasn't really the. It wasn't the dominant platform at that point. I remember when we dropped the album, it had, I think 83,000 or 85,000 album sold the first week, which is way more than anyone was expecting. We were. We would have been happy with 20 or 30 that have been.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Are these CDs?

Wayne Sermon [00:34:37] CDs, yeah. Like these are equivalent sales online.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] 83, 000 the first week.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:41] 80, 000 copies.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] You were hoping for what, 20, really?

Wayne Sermon [00:34:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] So four times what you thought?

Wayne Sermon [00:34:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] Well, what led to a big early splash? Just word of mouth or.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:50] No idea really.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] But it caught you off guard.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:54] Yeah, I think some of it was probably some of those. Those foundations we laid that, you know, we had fans. It's like another thing is that when people come into Vegas, they come from everywhere. Right. And so when they come through, they, you know, might pick up a CD of ours and they know of us and then go back to where they're at. And so, you know, maybe there was a little bit of international something, but probably wasn't much to sneeze at.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] But it's the true crossroads of the west.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:16] Yeah, exactly. I just, I just think, like, in general, we. We tried to lay a groundwork for it and obviously being, you know, labels, the way they're able to push things and advertise things certainly did not hurt at all either. So it was just a mix of things. But yeah, I don't. We were blown away. I was like, what the crap is happening?

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Okay. Yeah, so what? Tell us. Keep going.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:40] Then we went on tour forever.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] And as a lead or as a. As a. As a supporting band?

Wayne Sermon [00:35:46] At first, yeah, you were.

Alex Sermon [00:35:47] I. I feel like you were. They were on tour while this was all happening and they were supporting and it kind of got weird because they started blowing up, but they were still the supporting act.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] So who did you play for? Would we know any of the names of.

Alex Sermon [00:36:00] I mean, I don't know if we should say.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:01] Yeah, I don't want to put them on blast.

Alex Sermon [00:36:02] Yeah. But.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Okay, so.

Alex Sermon [00:36:05] Yeah, so, I mean.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:06] But it was a good band. Yeah, Good solid band. But it got to the point where we were bringing in more people than they. They were. And it was right at that place where it was kind of awkward. And so that tour was kind of strange. And then after that, we started doing our own tours.

Alex Sermon [00:36:20] And then from then on, I don't think you really opened for anyone else?

Wayne Sermon [00:36:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] Were there. So putting that aside, I'm not trying to call that out, but did you play as an opening act for bands that we'd know as in your ascent?

Wayne Sermon [00:36:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] So who can you like?

Wayne Sermon [00:36:34] Just, like, what bands did we open for?

John Dehlin [00:36:35] Yeah, yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:36] I think we opened for Weezer. Right. One time, I think, which was pretty crazy. That was really awesome. Grew up with those guys, and they're really nice guys.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] Grew up with them how?

Wayne Sermon [00:36:45] Oh, listening to their music.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:47] Yes. Like, they were a part of my life. Like, Blue and Green album was my childhood, so that was pretty nuts. Who else to be open for? Oh, my gosh. I'm blanking.

Alex Sermon [00:37:03] I really don't know. I can't. It was so long. It's really. So much has happened since then. It's a blur.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:10] Yeah. Put some notable acts.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] Okay. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:13] Like that. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] All right. So you got big and you had to go. Go primary.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:20] Yep. And then. And then we toured in the United States. We toured in Europe and everywhere, and it was crazy. And, like, an incredible dream. And also just like a whirlwind. It's like we describe it as you're in the center of a tornado. Like, everything's spinning around you really fast. Everything's changing really fast, but you still feel the same. Like, you still feel like you're just you. And so, like, all the complications to come with that as a human being and kind of seeing an ascent happen, and maybe people might treat you differently or, you know, the way fame affects people both inside and out, outside of yourself.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:01] And so, you know, there's good and bad that came with it, but obviously, overwhelmingly good. Like, this is. This was our dream. This was it. This was like, this is what I dreamed of my whole life, and it's happening. And it almost felt like numb, to be honest, because I just. You know, what. What do you do when you dream about something and it. That's minuscule and actually ends up working out? Like, what does that feel like to people? I don't know. It's. You know, it was just a numbing, shocking thing. And I tried to enjoy as much as I could, but you also kind of get.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:35] Can get. It's easy to get lost in yourself at that time when everything blows up so fast. And it's like. I kind of describe it as. It's like, imagine. Have it. Like, if you could possibly imagine, like, your favorite meal. Like, you could if you had every Michelin restaurant chef at your disposal. Like, just imagine, like, the most perfect, delicious meal you can imagine. And now picture that same meal every single day for 360 days. You know? We did. We did.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] What comes to my mind is you get sick of it.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] But what. What do you mean by that? I don't know what you mean by that.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:08] Just that I mean, 200 shows a year that. I think that first year is what we did. So what's that? Like, 360 days and 200 shows. So it's like, it was incredible every time. And that meal is incredible every time.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Oh, okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:20] And if you feel like you are getting sick of it, then you have to kind of check yourself and say, wait a minute. Like, I know this is the same meal as yesterday. And it's really easy for you to be bitter or, like, to get complacent, but, like, you have to just keep reminding yourself that it is amazing. It's the best meal in the world, and it's the meal you've been dreaming for your entire life. So you. It's like that balance, right? Because it's like, yes, you're doing every day, but now it's like, okay, now do it the next day. And the next day. The next day, you're on tour. You have expectations. These fans want to see you. You got to go to Russia now. Russia, guys. Russia's hot. Let's go to Russia. Okay. Okay. Let's do it. Let's do it. So. So let's say no to this.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Did you go right to stadiums?

Wayne Sermon [00:39:59] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] Okay, so what's the progression? So you did, like, start selling a lot of albums.

Wayne Sermon [00:40:03] Theater. So, yeah. So the first album was theaters and then into arenas.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:40:11] Yeah. And we've been doing arenas ever since.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] Go ahead.

Alex Sermon [00:40:13] I was just gonna say, while this is happening, I decided to dance professionally. So I went to. Well, it's like, right as they're. I mean, I think it was right on the brink of everything, like, before we knew what was to come. And we're like, he's gonna be touring anyway, and I'm gonna go and do a season with Ballet Tucson. And then it just turned out that we were able to see each other a lot less and a lot less and a lot less. And each break that I had, I would fly out to meet him wherever he was, whether that was Europe or somewhere in the US Or Canada.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Were there kids at this point or. Not yet?

Alex Sermon [00:40:47] No kids. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:40:48] Okay.

Alex Sermon [00:40:50] And it was great, but we figured pretty fast that it just wasn't going to work for. For both of us, so.

John Dehlin [00:40:57] So you would know better than anyone that the, you know, the stereotype or the reputation of the rock star life is something that a. A spouse could be very nervous about. So, like, how are you during this time? I was going to ask, are you touring with them all the time? Like, if I, If I were a spouse of a rock star, I'd be worried about what might happen on the road when I'm not there. Tell us how you thought about that or.

Alex Sermon [00:41:22] Yeah, I mean, I feel like we toured together pretty much any chance we could get, even when we were dating.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] Did you like?

Alex Sermon [00:41:30] I like. I like it. I like it probably more than he does touring.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] What do you like about it? What did you like about it?

Alex Sermon [00:41:36] I mean, it's just so. Oh, I don't know how to describe it.

Wayne Sermon [00:41:41] It's different every day.

Alex Sermon [00:41:42] I mean, I'm an outdoor cat, as we describe myself. He's an indoor cat. I'm an outdoor cat. I like to just walk around. I like to people watch. I like to see the way different crowds behave. I mean, different parts of the world treat the show differently. I like to find different coffee shops in different cities. It's just kind of exciting to me. Again, I'm not doing the work the way he is, so it's a. Definitely a different experience. So I don't know how I would feel, how exhausted I would feel doing what he was doing. He was also doing promo, so, like radio and TV interviews all morning leading up to the show at night. So it's not like they just hung out during the day and had a show at night. It was all day and all night work. So I definitely had a different experience, but I've always enjoyed it. However, I.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] What about being the spouse of a band member?

Alex Sermon [00:42:32] Yeah, I don't know. I'm not a jealous person. And also it's. I mean, I guess what I would say to people if they ever asked me that, I'd be like, it's Daniel, though. I mean, we're just kind of like a team. It's not. We're not really jealous of each other. And I. I don't know. It's not even a question. I mean, I think the only thing that would ever happen is like, my fear of missing out on, like, oh, that was a great show. I wish I was there to experience it with you if I was ever not able to go to a show. But with women and all of that, it's just. It's not his mo. I know how he was raised. I. I just know him inside and out and we talk pretty much every Chance we can get.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] You were kind of soulmates.

Alex Sermon [00:43:16] Yeah. If you believe in that sort of

Wayne Sermon [00:43:18] thing, then, yeah, I'm a one woman man.

Alex Sermon [00:43:23] Locked that down. But, yeah. So I ended up deciding to live in Tucson for this season and see how it goes. I. I was missing ballet, and it felt like the right opportunity. We would rehearse for three or four weeks and then perform, and then we would get two or three weeks off and I'd come and meet him on the road. It was difficult to stay in shape, obviously, doing that, but it was worth it and we were able to see each other. But things again. This hurricane is happening and.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] But you're also. Let's just for a second. You're living your dream, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:43:54] You're.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Yeah, like being a. Being a top notch professional ballerina, that's a. That's a real deal. What was that like for you to be able to live out that part of your training to its full extent?

Alex's Experience as a Ballerina and Tour Spouse

Alex Sermon [00:44:07] I mean, it was everything on the spectrum, I think, similar to what he was experiencing. There was so many positives, but also it was really, really hard work. I got to do leading roles, which was an honor, and I.

Alex Sermon [00:44:22] I felt really good that I was able to do that and that I was getting, I guess, positive reinforcement that I, you know, was. Had talent in this and there were a lot of good things. But ballet companies are. I mean, in my experience, it can be very competitive. I was a new girl coming in, and I was taking away roles from other people. People didn't really like that.

Alex Sermon [00:44:46] So I definitely felt a lot of negativity. I felt a little bit like half of a person not having him there. And both of us had these really demanding jobs that we weren't physically there for each other, even though we were trying to be there as emotionally as we could. I had a hard time being emotionally there for him just because I felt like I had a lot on my plate with my schedule and being physically drained.

Alex Sermon [00:45:12] So I, you know, it was one of those things that it played out. I got offered a promotion for the next year, got offered a raise, and I felt nothing. I felt like it wasn't what I needed. I felt like I kind of got out of it what I wanted, and I was just so much. I mean, yes, that was amazing for me, and it was once in a lifetime for me to be doing that.

Alex Sermon [00:45:36] However, what he was going through was once in a lifetime for a lot of people. I mean, it just. It's like lightning striking and I wasn't there for that. And so it Was so much more important to me that we were doing that together and that he felt supported. Otherwise, I just. It's so, so difficult to go through that and to feel alone. And so, you know, I quit after the season.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] What was it like on your body to be a professional ballerina?

Alex Sermon [00:46:06] Really, really difficult.

John Dehlin [00:46:07] Like, I can imagine your feet, your tendons, your ankles, your.

Alex Sermon [00:46:11] I broke my toe. I danced on it. I had a stress fracture. I danced on it the whole year. You just kind of do it. You know, I actually bruised my toenails so bad that they fell off. And it was one of those things where, you know, we had a Friday night rehearsal. We'd rehearsed all day, and then we had to come back for three hours at night to rehearse the snow scene for the Nutcracker. And it's just 12 minutes, or however long snow scene is, and on pointe, and it was going to be hours of rehearsal. And, I mean, I didn't have toenails, and so I was like, I'm.

Alex Sermon [00:46:42] I'm going to do this in flat shoes. I can't put on pointe shoes tonight. And literally, the girls were like, no, you still wear your pointe shoes. I'm like, no, I mean, I don't have toenails. And it's. You just do it. You know, it's definitely a different kind of mindset.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:57] Makes me look weak.

Alex Sermon [00:46:59] You are weak.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] It's about pain tolerance, right? Is that right?

Alex Sermon [00:47:04] Yeah, it is. And I mean, there's adrenaline involved in everything, but, yeah, I just, again, I go back to, like, the logic side of my brain. I'm like, it's just. Is it worth it for me to say that I did it when I'm just. I'm being pulled in too many directions and I just feel done? And so I decided to be done. And I felt. I felt really good about it, and I haven't really looked back. And we were able to travel just tour after tour. We would go on a US tour, go straight to, you know, Europe, tour there for two months, go straight back to us, no breaks, and we were able to do it together. And I felt like that's kind of what got you through.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] What was it like not having Alex versus having Alex?

Wayne Sermon [00:47:49] Well, apparently, I'm pretty dependent as a person.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] I didn't realize until that, like, emotional.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:55] I think. I think I just needed her. Like, if we were going to be two single people that wanted to live our dreams, we could have done that or, you know, if we were dating. But as a married couple to. It's like, I. And I. I'm the one that pushed Alex to do dance in the first place. That's like, my dream was to see her do it. And I just, I just.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] Did you get to see her perform professionally?

Wayne Sermon [00:48:14] Which was.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:15] A highlight of my life.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] Was it?

Wayne Sermon [00:48:16] Oh, absolutely. She's incredible. But so I really want, I needed, I needed her to do it for herself because I knew she could do it. I knew she. I know she needed to prove it to herself that she could be professional too. So I said, absolutely, do it. No question asked. Go rehearse. I mean, audition with all these people. And so it happened for her, and I, I, I couldn't be happier. And then, you know, the band took off and. And her career was, you know, going well. And I remember just kind of feeling like I needed her on the road. And I remember we were in Asheville, North Carolina. Or is it South Carolina?

John Dehlin [00:48:54] North Carolina. Thank you.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:56] And I remember having a beer poured it in my face at the show that night. For some reason, some drunk was just

John Dehlin [00:49:05] like, you know, throw it up on stage.

Alex Sermon [00:49:06] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:49:06] Like, performing. Yeah. While I was performing just like, threw a beer in my face. And I just remember, like, calling Alex that night and just being like, I don't like this anymore. I need you here. I need us to be together. I need, like, I need my partner in this. Like, you know, we had been touring for a long time. It's just like it was one of those weak moments. Now I feel like that's so wimpy compared to what you were doing. I feel sheepish.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] At least you had toenails.

Wayne Sermon [00:49:30] At least I had toenail

Alex Sermon [00:49:33] electrocuted by that beer.

Wayne Sermon [00:49:35] Yeah, I did electrocute on stage, but that's a different story. But, yeah, so I don't know, that was kind of a turning point, I think, for us, because I called her and I didn't feel like she was, like, emotionally available to me.

Alex Sermon [00:49:46] I had, like, a really demanding day and I just. He was, like, saying the words to me, but I wasn't empathetic towards it. And I felt it in myself. And it's. I think the distance had been too much. And, you know, it was like that point where we were there going to start growing kind of parallel or away from each other or we were gonna continue to grow together. And so we kind of got into shape and decided to grow together.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] So on the one hand, I'm thinking about Margi and how Margi, like, we didn't. I didn't even let her finish school. I'm Just like I'm. I got a job at Bain. You're coming with me. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Get. Get your degree on the road when you can. You know what I mean? She never had the chance to have a career, a full time job. I think that was hard on us. I think that, that, you know, that there's a sense of a personal development, individual development, identity development, sense of accomplishment that she never got. She's only getting that now.

Alex Sermon [00:50:42] Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:43] And. And it's after a lot of volatility. And so on the one hand, I'm like, whoa, that's such a cool version of the story where you got to live. Live out a professional dream to a. Frankly Tucson. But like, it's an area most girls who are women that do ballet never get to that point of actually dancing for a company. You did. And on the one hand, I'm so glad for you that you got to do that because you wouldn't just be watching Wayne have a successful professional career and it was just always you sacrificing. It's like, I got to do some of that too.

Alex Sermon [00:51:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] And I'm bummed that you had to give that up.

Alex Sermon [00:51:23] Yeah. I'm not bummed.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] But. But you were at peace with it.

Alex Sermon [00:51:25] Yeah. I think a lot of people, they want to be bummed for me.

John Dehlin [00:51:30] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:51:31] And if, If I did genuinely feel that way, then I. I get it. But I. I don't know, I felt like that's. I wanted to see that I could do it.

John Dehlin [00:51:39] You made it. You did. You made it. You made it.

Alex Sermon [00:51:41] Yeah. So that was kind of good. And then we ended up having kids.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] It would make you envious. It might make you less envious and angry, resentful that you got to do that before you started having kids. That's all I'm saying.

Alex Sermon [00:51:57] Yeah. So it's so hard to tell because I don't know what it would be like otherwise.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:01] But maybe it's Super Cheese Ball. But like we never. I never saw as my career. It's not as something I saw as something we were doing that's so great. So it's like.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] And then you said it wouldn't have happened without her.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:14] Yeah. It's like, so whether it's her career that takes off and can support us and we can live our dreams, or if it's mine, it didn't really matter. It's like, it's just, what are we going to do with our lives?

John Dehlin [00:52:23] I get that. So I feel like Mormon stories is as much. Margi, is it?

Wayne Sermon [00:52:27] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:52:28] Yeah, we feel very intertwined that way.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:30] So, you know, so, yeah, I mean, we got to explore, you know, explore the world together. And, you know, she came out whenever she could, you know, especially before we had kids. But I think for me, like, the Mark Twain quote of, you know, travel being the cure for ignorance and anecdote to prejudice, you know, that is a very true thing, you know, and that's maybe the biggest positive for me in this job is that I've been able to see people from all walks of life who live in different countries, speak different languages, and just kind of open my eyes.

John Dehlin [00:53:04] Changes you, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:53:05] It changes me. And it made me realize that the world's a lot bigger than Mormonism, and there's a lot of different religions in the world, and obviously, I already knew that. And it's not like I was still very much a Mormon. And it wasn't like I was like, oh, this is. It's all B.S. look, all these people. You know, it wasn't that, but it was just like. It was like another. Huh. Thing of, like, people are just kind of the same everywhere, aren't they?

John Dehlin [00:53:26] And there's good everywhere.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:28] There's good everywhere. And it doesn't really matter what you believe after you die, because how you treat people. Now, that matters. And I meet people all the time that treat each other with respect and love, and they're not religious at all, or they're, you know, Muslim or whether atheist or Jewish. It doesn't really. It doesn't really matter, you know, so that's. That was. I'm very fortunate that I've been able to do that.

Growing Doubts About the Church

John Dehlin [00:53:52] So. So in terms of your. Your evolution with. With faith in the church and stuff, when. So, on the one hand, someone who. I've lived in Utah for many years now. You guys think of yourself as a Vegas band. I kind of think of you guys as a Mormon band. Right? Because. Because even though I was excommunicated maybe a couple years after you guys hit it big, I was paying attention to you guys, and I'm like, when any. When any one of us makes it big, whether it's Benji Schwimmer, Tyler Glenn, right? Whoever. Pick. Pick someone who makes it big. The dude on American Idol, David Archuleta. You know, we all feel insecure as Mormons. We all feel weird. We all feel like the world judges us, and then one of us breaks through.

Wayne Sermon [00:54:44] Right?

Alex Sermon [00:54:44] It's validating.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] Yeah, But. But, like, we're all just cheering you guys on. We're like, I remember you did some special I think it was the first time I saw you guys on tv. Was it the Beatles thing where you're like, major band? I think Ed Sheeran. What was the where? Yeah, what was that?

Alex Sermon [00:55:02] Yeah, it was a bunch of different bands.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:04] Yeah. So we did the Grammys the night before that where we played with Kendrick Lamar, who happened. Just happens to be the greatest artist of our generation, which was crazy. And then the day after that, we played with. We played a Beatles song in front of the Beatles. Right now.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] Was that you're in the first album.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:22] Was that first album? Yep. And that was bananas.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] Okay. It was really quick. Go back. When did you go from like, okay, we. We signed a deal and we've. We've sold some albums. Were there some points where you're like, oh, my gosh, I think this is actually really big. Was it Shea Stadium? Was it like, what were some of the milestones where you're like, oh, my gosh, this is actually really big.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:43] I mean, just seeing our name on the charts was crazy. Hearing. Hearing our song, the Billboard charts.

Alex Sermon [00:55:49] They were on the COVID of Billboard magazine.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:51] Yeah, stuff like that. You know, playing arenas is obviously like a trip.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] What were some of the big first arenas you played that just kind of blew you away?

Wayne Sermon [00:55:57] Oh, all arenas are the same.

Alex Sermon [00:55:59] I don't know from the inside.

Wayne Sermon [00:56:00] They're all just giant concrete boxes.

John Dehlin [00:56:03] And you don't remember some like, oh, my gosh, I met. I'm at Wrigley Field. I mean, playing.

Wayne Sermon [00:56:07] Playing my home turf, the used to be Delta center was pretty sweet. Okay, that was pretty dope. Energy solutions now, right? Or is it even that? Yeah, yeah, it's something else.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] Okay, so playing.

Wayne Sermon [00:56:18] Playing. That was cool. I think the big whoa was going to Brazil. It's like none of these people speak, why Brazil? Because we played for 95,000 people and none of them knew English. But they knew all of our songs really. And they were going crazy. And it was. How do you describe something like that? It's. It was a spirit, I guess, spiritual. It was an extremely spiritual experience.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] So you're on stage performing songs you love. 95,000 people are singing along. What does that feel?

Wayne Sermon [00:56:49] And we're looking each other on stage like, what the hell?

John Dehlin [00:56:51] Really?

Wayne Sermon [00:56:52] Really? Like what is happening right now? It's like, maybe this isn't just a fluke. Maybe the shoe isn't just going to draw other shoes not going to drop. And this isn't just some big joke. Maybe this actually has legs and maybe we can actually do this. Maybe we can get away with this, it's like, wow. So that was, that was the moment where like, okay, this is actually happening. Because it's like, you know, it's like you get your heart set so much as a musician. It's like every little, every little success you have, you celebrate and all the defeats you have, you take it so hard and you don't want to set yourself up for failure.

Wayne Sermon [00:57:22] Failure. And even I'm just getting over it now, like, well, you know, who knows? You know, the other shoe could drop and you know, we could be a nothing band, you know, so even now I'm like protecting myself from that because

John Dehlin [00:57:33] there's the one hit wonder phenomenon, right? You could make it, you could have a big hit and then no one ever hears of you.

Alex Sermon [00:57:37] I remember when they got that second song, I was like, you're not going to be a one hit wonder.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] So the first two hit was. The first hit was Radioactive.

Alex Sermon [00:57:45] It's time to kind of build.

Wayne Sermon [00:57:46] This time got like number 14, I think on the top 40. And then reactive obviously did what it did and demons on top of the world.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] And so this album was nominated for a Grammy and it won what Alternative.

Alex Sermon [00:58:01] Our best rock.

Wayne Sermon [00:58:02] Best rock. Yeah. I should know that.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] First album you win a Grammy.

Alex Sermon [00:58:07] Yeah, but yeah, I mean I feel like if you put. This is me personally, but if you put too much stock into awards and accolades like that, then when you don't win them, right. Then you also have to take those hits just as hard still.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] It doesn't suck.

Wayne Sermon [00:58:22] Doesn't suck.

Alex Sermon [00:58:22] No.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] Right. But yeah, yeah, you don't want to. You don't do it for that. You didn't do it for that.

Wayne Sermon [00:58:27] So it was cool. But you know, it validating in some way. But also, I don't know, it's. It was a. I think that it sounds cliche but the fact that we can play for people and have fans that know our music and that we can make a living out of this, that's the real award reward for us. And that's all the other stuff is extra and yada, yada, yada. Cliche, cliche. But it's true.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] And so as it hit. Was it fun? Like, was it? Yes, like the groove. Does the grueling and the whirlwind tornado aspect of it take the fun away or is it just a wonderful ride?

Wayne Sermon [00:59:02] Or is it both? I. I'm not sure exactly how to talk about it because I. The last thing I want to do is be a ungrateful whiner white first

John Dehlin [00:59:15] world problem rock star. Oh, no, out. So let's just say. Let's put that voice silent. That voice. What's it really like? Because, Well, I mean, let's just put it this way. Jim Morrison, you know, the Nirvana guy, right? Like Prince, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, like, take your pick. All the people that we knew and love growing up died early. Right? Drug addiction. Like, so there's something where it's. It's not great in some ways. So be real. If you, if you're comfortable.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:46] I mean, as real as I can be, is that it is an extremely dynamic way to live.

John Dehlin [00:59:51] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:51] It's. The highs are higher than you could have imagined, and there are lows that bring it to your knees.

John Dehlin [00:59:57] Like, what are some lows? Like, what are some examples of types of lows?

Wayne Sermon [01:00:02] You know, being in Europe and playing like five shows in a row and you have norovirus and you're trying to make it to Paris and you feel like, worst thing you've ever felt. You feel like you're gonna die, but like, you can't let down your fans in the next show. You're beat, you're worn down. You've been, you know, you've been playing, you know, 150 shows before this in the year, and you're just beat. And like, as great as it is, I just want to rest and go home for a minute. Like, that kind of stuff, that's a reality. The way people treat you is different. And I don't personally like that.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] What can be hard about that? What, What's.

Wayne Sermon [01:00:33] I'm. I still. I just still feel so much the same as I used to, like, as a person, you know, I. I don't feel different. It feels the same.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [01:00:42] Because you're.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] You. People treat you how. And what does that make you feel?

Wayne Sermon [01:00:46] You know, there's like, with the notoriety and like, oh, you're a big successful guy now. Wow. Can I get autographed? Like, that's stuff when, like families, like

Alex Sermon [01:00:54] family members, extended family ask you for autographs.

Wayne Sermon [01:00:57] Yeah, it's like, you know, it's great and of course I'm happy to do it. It's not a big deal. But like, it's just these little things add up and it. And it ends up being that you. You feel differently about. It's like your. How you interface with the world changes a little bit too.

Alex Sermon [01:01:11] Like, who's there to see you? Daniel the person or who's there to see Wayne the right guitar monkey?

Wayne Sermon [01:01:19] And I. Yeah, exactly. And I experience it less than Dan does. You know, I'm grateful I'm a guitar player. I don't have to have, like, the full limelight because I would shrivel and die, so.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] Really?

Wayne Sermon [01:01:28] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] You don't want.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:30] I want to. No, no.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] You want to be in the background.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:32] I just give me a guitar, let me play and that I. I definitely feel most comfortable on stage. Way more comfortable. I am now. I'm trying my best, but.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] What do you mean, then. Then. Right now, like, this is uncomfortable for you. Why? Is it because you have to be private? Because you're a private person.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:49] I'm just a private kind of guy.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] You don't like to talk about yourself?

Wayne Sermon [01:01:52] Yeah, I don't. I don't necessarily.

Alex Sermon [01:01:54] Is that not obvious?

Wayne Sermon [01:01:55] I'm not.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] No, it's not. I'm.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:56] It's not that. I'm enjoying. I'm enjoying your company, John. It's not that. It's not you. It's not you. It's just. I just love the music, and I think the rest is kind of silly. I think all the other stuff, I get it, and I'm grateful for a whole package. I would take the whole package. I wouldn't change, you know, nothing like that. But I don't like the other stuff. I never. I've never liked it. I don't like being treated differently. I don't. I don't like doing autographs. I'll do them, and I'm happy to do them for other people, but as far as I'm concerned, it's like.

Wayne Sermon [01:02:28] It's just about the music, and people connect to the emotion and the lyrics and the song, and if it helps them through something, and I know it does, that's what matters. And I'm just a vessel of that. You know, all four of us are just a vessel of that. That's what I believe.

John Dehlin [01:02:43] Yeah. You go back to that EFY experience you had. Like, it's like being John, by the way, or Jack Christensen times a billion. Right. Like, you. You don't want to be that thing you were uncomfortable seeing, which is hype or inauthenticity or.

Wayne Sermon [01:02:59] Or I'm just a simple man.

John Dehlin [01:03:00] Right. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:02] Chop wood, girl. My mustache. Yeah, I don't know. And I. I definitely sympathize with, like, the whole, like, you mentioned, like, how.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] How does. How does Whitney Houston end up like Whitney Houston? Do you know what I'm talking about? Right.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:18] Yeah, I. Tell.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Tell us how that plays out. If. Based on your observations, I think being

Wayne Sermon [01:03:23] in a band is really helpful for that, because I think pop artists have A lot less people telling them no or checking them. You know, we're like four brothers that if something gets. If anything gets out of being in a group. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] Check each other.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:35] Being a group really helps. You know, it's like.

John Dehlin [01:03:37] So it's a solo artist.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:38] So I think it'd be harder personally for me to be a pop artist or a solo artist and to have that all on your shoulders. You know, being a part of Imagine Dragons, it's like a band of brothers and you kind of can lean on each other. And obviously bands break up all the time and there's still a lot of tension at times in, you know, four big personalities. But at the same time, it's like you're not taking the flack for any one thing. It's. You can sort of spread it around, the good and the bad. So that's helped us stay grounded and connected to each other. But look, I. I get it. It's like the whole thing of like being careful what you wish for. As far as music, I mean, people go wacky.

Alex Sermon [01:04:17] Yeah. I feel like life changes when people stop saying no to you, you know?

Wayne Sermon [01:04:21] Yeah. But yeah, so as far as like,

John Dehlin [01:04:27] because, because growing up, whether it's acdc, Lost, you know, their lead singer, like Led Zeppelin, Lost, people like you, you can, you can go back to all these bands. The who. Like, I think a lot of the bands that we've talked about lost a member. So I mean, Right. It's still got to be perilous even with a band. Right. So give people a sense for. What is it about performing at that level that can be perilous?

Wayne Sermon [01:04:53] The stakes get a lot higher. You know, it's like, it's hard, hard to keep ego. Your ego, your own sense of self. And you go in check and you are you. If you want to be a jerk, you can. You have extra license to be. And so the opportunity for you to not be your best self is there a little bit more than a regular person. So if you don't check yourself, you will go down. You will be self destructive. 100 and is there something very isolating about fame? There's. You feel like there's less and less people you can relate to and to understand what you're going through. And so in that can come a little bit of neuroticism and being isolated. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Because you think you'd have a million friends, but it doesn't. What does that work?

Wayne Sermon [01:05:40] I certainly haven't gained. I mean, there's like people in the industry that become friends with. But I don't have any new friends I didn't have for. And you know, it's like because.

John Dehlin [01:05:49] Because you never know why they're your friend. Is that why?

Wayne Sermon [01:05:51] Partly. And also just, you know, maybe it's. Maybe it's also just me as a person, but I think that's the same for everybody. I don't think Ben or Plattsman or Dan are like. Like sound like they're not social. I don't think they're out making like all new friends. I think the friends they have are the friends they have. And we all pretty much hang out with the friends we had in high school or shortly after that. So that's probably.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] So it can be lonely and isolating.

Wayne Sermon [01:06:15] Right. I think so.

John Dehlin [01:06:17] What. What is. When I watched the Whitney Houston documentary, have you seen. Seems like. So there's like sex, drugs, rock and roll. Like, you know, the drug part, it seems like it's not just like lack of character. Like there's something about that grueling schedule and all the pressure where you. It becomes overwhelming. In other words, we talked about crocodile tears and rock stars. Like, it's not like we're trying to get sympathy, but there's something about the system that requires that at some point really leads to self medication because of the pain or the distress. Can you talk about that?

Wayne Sermon [01:06:54] Yeah. I mean, things are not for you,

John Dehlin [01:06:56] but just for what you've seen.

Wayne Sermon [01:06:57] Oh, I think it's absolutely true. We did a Music Cares thing where we played with Fleetwood Mac and a bunch of other artists, a bunch of Fleetwood Mac songs. But like, it was a charity thing and it's called Music Cares. And this charity is basically all about

Alex Sermon [01:07:10] addiction.

Wayne Sermon [01:07:11] Yeah. And helping musicians, like, sort of like get the program. And so I think I heard at that event that 85% of, you know, successful musicians are depressed or have serious anxiety issues. And so it's like this thing that's not spoken about because. Because of the very fact that it's like the silver spoon thing. It's like, how dare you complain when so many people have so little and you've been blessed. You know, people cheer your name when you go on stage. Like, if you're anything less than grateful, you know, you need to check yourself. There is truth to that too, but.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Except if you want to die, you want to die.

Wayne Sermon [01:07:45] Right? Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] So, like, it doesn't matter if you're rich or famous. But the weird thing is it's the rich and fame that makes you want to die more sometimes.

Wayne Sermon [01:07:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] And people don't get that, like What? You got everything. Why would it be hard? Right. Yep.

Alex Sermon [01:07:56] I think also there's, you know, that feeling after, say, you're in college or something and you take a big test, that adrenaline that you feel, and then you feel that let down afterwards after finals and you get sick and your body kind of breaks down because of that come down. They go through that every night. So it's.

John Dehlin [01:08:13] Super highs lead to, like, a drain of serotonin or whatever.

Alex Sermon [01:08:17] So I think hormonally and everything, it actually physically changes your chemicals up and down, I think.

John Dehlin [01:08:22] So the body's probably not. The brain's not. Hasn't evolved to continually experience 200 out of 365 nights of extreme highs and then.

Wayne Sermon [01:08:32] Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:32] Drains to extreme lows.

Wayne Sermon [01:08:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:35] And the level. Just the physical exertion. Right, Right.

Wayne Sermon [01:08:37] Yeah. We're all pretty worn out and. But you gotta keep doing it because it's like, who knows how long this is gonna last? And enjoy it while you can, because it's like, this is what you asked for. And it's like. And all the positives are there, too. So it's all just this big mishmash of. Of. That's why it's a whirlwind, because it's everything at once. It's like something shoving that. That delicious dinner in your face every day, and you just gotta. You gotta hold on for the ride.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] Any. Really quick. Before we're gonna go back to the church stuff. But any. Any. Any cool, fun stories you want to share about, like, meeting cool people or, like, you know, artists you've met or people you played with or do you not like to talk about people specifically? That's fine.

Wayne Sermon [01:09:17] Yeah, people can go.

John Dehlin [01:09:18] That's a great answer.

Alex Sermon [01:09:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:09:19] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [01:09:19] But, yeah, okay. It's been cool, though. I will say the Beatles. I meant the Beatles.

John Dehlin [01:09:26] You said your dad got the hug. Paul McCartney or something.

Wayne Sermon [01:09:28] My dad went backstage with me and he got a hug. Paul McCartney, which was probably the crowning moment of his life. And so the fact that I could give him that. That's. That's pretty cool. So a lot of other people, too, and it's been a lot of fun.

Alex Sermon [01:09:41] I got to see Joni Mitchell from across the room, and that's still my highlight.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Was that. Was that your highlight?

Alex Sermon [01:09:45] Which is funny because she didn't even play. She was just across the room. And for some reason, that was the biggest deal to me.

Wayne Sermon [01:09:51] Joni's Joni, though.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] She's a legend.

Alex Sermon [01:09:53] Another level.

Wayne Sermon [01:09:54] Another level.

John Dehlin [01:09:54] Okay.

Part 4 of 5 · Ep. 1184

John Dehlin [00:00:30] Okay, so let's talk Mormonism now. So you're. You're like Mormon's successful rock band. You're like the new version of the Osmonds, but like, you know, but, but, but modern.

Wayne Sermon [00:00:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] So you're carrying that, like all these hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Mormons are like, oh, that's us. That's our band. You know what I mean?

Wayne Sermon [00:00:53] Yeah. And I, you know what? I still proud to carry that, you know.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:00:57] And I, I culturally, I, I born Mormon. You know, you can't, you can't get out of your blood. And so I still really appreciate that. And I, I'm. I definitely hear what you're saying as far as that, you know, like, is

John Dehlin [00:01:11] there a part of you, like, representing Mormonism in the priesthood when you're like, being successful to the world?

Wayne Sermon [00:01:16] Well, you feel, you just feel the mantle of that. You feel like, you know, it's like I'm represent, representing my people in a way, and you want to do right by them. And it's, it's like an extra done. You know, you don't want to disappoint them. And it's like, yeah, I think there's a little extra thing there. And that's, you know, part of my trepidation of like speaking out too is like, is that I know that, you know, people like, you know, ran from the Killers, Neon Trees and us.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] Also the Panic at the Disco.

Wayne Sermon [00:01:43] Disco. He. Well, he, he was raised that way.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:01:45] I don't think he.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:01:46] As much into it now, but, you know, you feel that sort of, you're taking on this, this mantle and I don't want to disappoint those people, but I also, you know, it's like at some point I just gotta, you know, be myself too. So when, when we were, you know, early on in the band, me and Dan were still going to church. You know, we would go to church on the road. We find, you know, the nearest chapel

John Dehlin [00:02:11] and, you know, so while you were touring. Yeah, go to church.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:13] Go to church.

Alex Sermon [00:02:14] They wouldn't play on Sundays.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:16] No Sunday gigs. What?

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Ye say no to everything but Sunday.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:20] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Sunday gigs.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:21] Sunday. Yeah. Say yes to everything but Sunday gigs.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Okay, okay, okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:25] And.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] Right. Sorry.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:26] Yeah, yeah. We were still, still, still with it and still, you know, we consider ourselves Mormon. You know, I. Dan is. Definitely has his own path as far as where he's at with everything right now. But, you know, we're. We're pretty aligned as far as, like, our thoughts on things. But.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] So when you hit Big. Were you. Had the. Had the big crack started to emerge in your testimony or faith?

Wayne Sermon [00:02:52] No.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] Okay, so you. So you're hitting it big. You're still, like, into the Mormon thing fully. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:57] You know, it's like, I'm not, like, the most. Like, I'm not the best, but I'm in there. I'm doing my best. I'm not drinking or, you know, doing any of the typical rock star things, you know. You know, actually being faithful to your wife on the road, that kind of stuff.

Alex Sermon [00:03:13] Appreciate you.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:16] So not the. Not the most difficult. No drugs or, you know, just both living clean and. And trying to do this thing our way. And probably not, you know, at the risk of looking cool to probably other bands and, you know, no tattoos and I'm sure it's. It's probably a strange juxtaposition for people, but it's. It's the truth of who we were, and so we did it.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] Did you ever feel like, well, God did this, or we were blessed by God, like, or I guess you worked so hard for so long, it'd probably be hard to attribute it to anything other than hard work, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:03:46] Yeah, a little bit. I mean. Okay, okay. Perhaps I lived in, you know, in a world that God created, that if you work hard, okay, this kind of stuff can happen. So thanks, God, for making the context.

Alex Sermon [00:03:55] And then also, you just think of all the other Mormon bands that were playing lore that we knew and loved and that weren't having that success. So that almost.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:04:03] It's like, okay, they weren't as God

John Dehlin [00:04:05] bless you, but not.

Alex Sermon [00:04:06] Yeah, it just doesn't really work that way.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:07] So.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] So what happened?

Wayne Sermon [00:04:10] So, yeah, so I was still in it. We were being faithful, and I don't. As we got married and stuff, we would go to church, but our temple attendance probably wasn't all that great. We weren't really going that much anymore. And just sort of. There was just some things I think were under the surface. I think Prop 8 was an issue for both of us. Even though we never really talked about it. A ton of the discussions we did have were like, you know, if this can be seen as anything less than a complete, you know, blunder, you know, for.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] If you had gay friends or lesbian friends or lgbt.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:49] Of course. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Trans friends.

Alex Sermon [00:04:50] While dancing, I had a lot of gay friends. And that was a really hard time for me to just kind of brush off.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] You were in California during. Right.

Alex Sermon [00:04:59] I want to say I was at byu, but I was coming back and forth.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Okay.

Alex Sermon [00:05:03] And I still had those friends. I had gay friends at BYU as well who were in the closet. But yeah, it was really difficult. It was really. Even my family in California, my siblings were still in high school and stuff, and the church asked a lot of them to go door to door. And my parents didn't really feel comfortable with that because they. I mean, I don't know exactly where they stood with it, but they didn't feel good about them promoting that. And yeah, I really hated it. I really hated it a lot.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] You disagreed with it. You thought it was wrong 100%. You didn't feel like you didn't have a testimony of it?

Alex Sermon [00:05:37] No.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:38] Yeah, I hated it on two levels. First of all, I hated it for the obvious reason of its treatment of gay people, obviously. And then I hated it also because I'm a big church state dividing lines, You're a libertarian. And the fact that a tax exempt organization would try and meddle so overtly in political matters, it was, it was. That upset me. So I was, I was kind of like, I'm still with, like, I'm still cool. But like, that was like a real big chink for me is like, what's happening? How could this be revelation from God?

Alex Sermon [00:06:15] We're not writing Facebook posts about it or being public about it, but I think it was in the underbelly of, I guess starting things crumbling a little bit.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:24] And then, like, you know, like, Alex already mentioned the treatment of women in the church. You know, I feel like I always felt like the church was missing out on about half of its potential by the way it treated its women and that women weren't ever seen as equal. Despite the protests of those who think they are. As far as leader position, leadership positions, and just living out their potential in the church. I don't think that it was a. It was a 50, 50 deal. And anyone who says so, I strongly disagree with.

John Dehlin [00:06:57] So let me just set this up a tiny bit. So there, there are always going to be people that don't really want to hear your story and listen, who are orthodox or devout, and they're gonna go, well, rock star, you. You become a rock star, you become prideful. You're gonna leave the church because that's what happens when you get successful. You become prideful. You're talking about stuff that happens four years before you ever hit.

Alex Sermon [00:07:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] And so I want to bring that in. So you're saying that some of your doubts and concerns happen that were legitimate, were weighing on your mind years before you had any indication you'd ever make it totally. Is that right?

Alex Sermon [00:07:32] Yes. And we're having these doubts now, I guess, bringing it back to around when the band is hitting big and we're not really talking about it, the two of us, but I can feel that neither of us are really wanting to go to church. We don't feel comfortable when we go there with what's being said. However, I. At least I don't want to speak for you, but I think you felt the same way. We just did not want to become that cliche of. Of a quote unquote rock star who then leaves the church. Like all the actors that the church claims they grew up Mormon, but, you know, look at them now, you know, and so I think we're really fearful of that. And so it almost made us want to, like, white knuckle a little bit and make sure we made it to every cousin wedding in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] And plus, you want to let everyone down, right?

Alex Sermon [00:08:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] People you love and who look up to you.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:26] Right?

Alex Sermon [00:08:26] Yeah. And just inside, I mean, even. Yes. To the outside world, we didn't want to be a cliche, but inside, it just seemed like, no, the church can't. Or the world can't bring us down that way.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:39] Yeah. And if. You know it, really. So I think basically the turning point for us was this all kind of coincided with our second album, Smoke and Mirrors. And that album is. You know, it's not even trying to be subtle, and it's what it means, you know.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] Tell us some of the songs on that album.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:56] Smoke and Mirrors is the. Is the title track, and it's. It's. You know, I think it's Dan grappling with his own faith cons, you know, faith crisis of some kind, you know, or at least seeing things differently than he used to and not sureing. Not being sure of where he's ending up. And I echoed it. You know, we talked about it quite a bit.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] So before the album, it's like, let's do a faith crisis album or not?

Wayne Sermon [00:09:19] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:20] That's not how Dan writes.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:22] Well, he's. He's incapable of. I think for him, it's just like stream of consciousness, sort of like, oh, look, like he finds out after the song was written what it was about. You know, and so, you know, even the lyrics and Smoke and Mirrors, like, all I believe is it just smoke and mirrors. Like, that's kind of, you know, it tells you a little bit about where we were. And so that kind of coincides with, like, where are we gonna end? Up in the church and like, just the first time of being, like, unsure. And I think even more so when you have your own children, because we both, Diane and Dan and I had started to have our own kids.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:59] And I'm sure you probably heard this a lot, that when you start to have your own children and you look them in the eye and you see them as these completely empty vessels that you fill with whatever you will, you have to. That's when you really have to ask yourself, like, what do you believe and what are you going to imprint on your kids because you're responsible for them. And that's the first time I ever had to really look inside myself and say, are you going to teach your kid about Mormonism? How are you going to teach them about Joseph Smith? Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:30] There's no half ass in this. It's like, that's not my personality. I'm either gonna do it or not do it. And so either he's going to primary and he's gonna sing about following the prophet, or he's not. And so I think as a couple, we were both just like, what's happening? I'm tired of this in between. I hate fence sitting, hate being unsure about where we stand and all these issues we're having. So let's. Let's figure it out.

Alex Sermon [00:10:53] Yeah. It's like we talk about everything, and that was kind of a subject we weren't talking about. And it. So it almost felt like this little gap. And so I. I'm glad that we addressed it and, you know, started to go down.

John Dehlin [00:11:07] What? So what happened? Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:11:11] Yeah. What?

John Dehlin [00:11:12] So was it like Dan. You hear Dan plays a song for you for the album, and you're like, wait, is this about your faith crisis?

Wayne Sermon [00:11:18] Like, no, we never.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Oh, there was never anything explicit about that. So it's just you two having kids and then starting to talk for the first time.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:27] Yeah, it just happened to coincide with that sort of time period. It's kind of interesting. I'm just. I was just thinking, reflecting on it,

John Dehlin [00:11:32] did one of you say to the other, I may not believe it's all true? Was there sort of a coming out for either of you? To the other?

Alex Sermon [00:11:39] Well, I mean, it's like I. I feel like we. We had our son, river, our firstborn, and then a year and a half later, we had our second son, Wolf. And I feel like in that time, it's like we just. We blessed our first baby in the church, but we hadn't really been to that ward. It was just like, where was this in Huntington Beach. And so it's kind of like, hi, we're coming, and we're going to bless our baby because we're in this ward. But we've been traveling so much, which we had. But you still, you know, you make it, you know, so it was kind of like, oh, we hadn't been in a little bit.

Alex Sermon [00:12:16] And so he did a lovely blessing of our son. And then that year we dated the album Smoke and Mirrors. We started traveling with our son, and then very soon after, we got pregnant with our second son. And when came to bless him, we just didn't feel comfortable doing it in a ward building. But we weren't ready to, I guess, give up the ghost or whatever of what Mormonism was, because we didn't really know where we were with it. So we blessed the baby at home also. Lovely.

Alex Sermon [00:12:48] And then we just started to be like, okay, like, let's actually talk about this and are we gonna fence it our whole life? Because that's not what we do in any other part of our life. So why would we do it on what's technically supposed to be the most important part of our life, which is our religion? So let's do some research and make a decision.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:07] Yeah, One way or another. Like, I wasn't being a good priesthood holder. You know, I felt like I was kind of lax in my priesthood responsibilities. And so it's like either, like, having

John Dehlin [00:13:21] a calling, doing your home teaching, going

Wayne Sermon [00:13:23] and calling, you know, feeling like I'm worthy to give a blessing and like, am I really, like, a good priesthood holder? And am I confident in my own ability to have the priesthood and all that stuff? So, yeah, it just ended up being like, one way or another, we're going to figure this out. And honestly, we kind of thought we would end up on the side of going to church and just going back and. And being full in. And at least that was my expectation of it. And. And then.

Discovering the CES Letter and Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [00:13:50] So around. What year is this? 1314. Okay.

Alex Sermon [00:13:56] Beginning of 2014.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] So how did you go. How did you go down the road of investigation? Who started Guess.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:04] The Utah Mormon or the California Mormon? John?

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Either one. Do both. Let's do both.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:09] No, guess. Guess which one of the two. You know, you're.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] Oh, it's.

Alex Sermon [00:14:12] Oh, obviously.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Oh, I've got sin all over me now. All the sermons are like, so it's her fault.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:18] That was my first mistake marrying a California woman.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] Yeah, because your dad raised you liberal and don't raise your kids liberal. Actually, that's actually not true. I've found the kids that were raised more orthodox and conservative are the ones that was too rigid and it broke. The ones who were usually raised progressive, they had a more flexible faith, and so they were able to stay. So I'm just telling you my experience. It was. It's the opposite. That's true. But anyway.

Alex Sermon [00:14:45] But surprise, surprise, I'm special. No. Yeah. I was talking with a cousin of mine that I'm close with about it. We actually went to BYU together, and I hope that's not too much information. And, you know, she mentioned Mormon stories, and I was thinking it was like, oh, stories of Mormons. You know, like, that's where they get you. Yeah, exactly. You know, it was just such a nice, positive title.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] I just like stories.

Alex Sermon [00:15:16] I do, too. So I wanted to listen to them. And so I just listened to the most recent episode, and it was someone that was recently excommunicated, I want to say. Or they had just had a.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] Like the Calderwoods, Marisa and Carson Calderwood or Rock Waterman.

Alex Sermon [00:15:32] Or maybe it. I honestly. It was just 14. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Like. Like Denver Snuffer was excommunicated 2000 2013. Kate Kelly is excommunicated in 2014.

Alex Sermon [00:15:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] And that's when Rock Waterman and the Calderwoods and others started getting excommunicated.

Alex Sermon [00:15:47] Maybe. Yeah, it was just one man on there, and it's probably Rockwater. And I feel like it was like a part two, because I. I never really listened to podcasts before.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Yeah, disciplinary council.

Alex Sermon [00:15:56] Exactly. So of clicked on that. And so it was kind of in the middle of a story. I really didn't know what was going on, but he mentioned the word CES letter. Dum, dum, dum. And so, you know, as you do, you just. I just googled what that was. And I came home, I was out grocery shopping, and I just told him. I was like, yeah, had you heard of this? And, you know, we looked it up and just started reading together.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] That's interesting. It's really common these days to sort of say, well, Jeremy Runnels, like, was dishonest and he was trying to hurt people. And the CES letter is disingenuous, and it's hiding things and it's introducing problems, and there's always this tendency to attack the messenger. How did you guys. How did. And do you think about the CES letter? Because it has been demonized because it's played an important role in people learning.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:50] Right.

Alex Sermon [00:16:51] In education, which is the worst. Yeah. Do you want to take.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:58] I mean. Yeah, I devoured the whole thing in three hours.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Wow. It's 70 pages.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:02] Yeah. I just swallowed it whole.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] And what was it like?

Wayne Sermon [00:17:06] I cross referenced everything and looked at all the references.

John Dehlin [00:17:10] Was this all new to you? Was this all.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] In 2014. That's new to you?

Wayne Sermon [00:17:15] 99% of that information I had no clue was happening. And so.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] And by the way, that's nine years into Mormon stories existence at this point. 2014. Like, we started in 2005. So that's nine years into Mormon Stories. You're a global personality hearing about these issues for the first time.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:35] Right?

John Dehlin [00:17:35] In 2014.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:36] Yes. And so I was flabbergasted by the amount of information that was being kept from and members.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] Top five things that flabbergasted you.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:46] Just so.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] Not. Not. We're not trying to so doubt.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] But it's important for you to say, what were the things that, like, I didn't know this. How did it happen? Like, how did I not know?

Wayne Sermon [00:17:56] I mean, that south park was right

John Dehlin [00:17:58] about the hat, the stone in the hat and the translation.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:01] It's like, how is south park more honest? I. I think. I. I don't know. I think I can just speak for, like, the, like, the Utah Mormon experience. I know there's a lot of people say, well, you know, I knew that stuff. And, like, why are you bothered by it? Like, sort of gaslighting that way. But, like, I can speak for. I mean, everyone in my ward at home would be really shocked to know that Joseph Smith was arrested for treasure hunting, that he was a known treasure hunter. That was like, his first foray into this kind of stuff that would. I think that'd be shocking to people that he did translate it. Like by putting a rock in a hat and looking down at it with

John Dehlin [00:18:35] no plates in the room.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:36] No, the plates were never used. So all the artwork that is deceptive is. Is unintentionally or intentional.

Alex Sermon [00:18:43] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:45] Gosh. Book of Abraham, the Book of Abraham, the translations, kindred plates, the. Just the overall tendency of a man who is gifted, gifted at the art of creative borrowing. Whereas, you know, like, you know, people say the Book of Mormon couldn't have been created any other way. Well, there's like three books that are a lot like the Book of Mormon that he could have easily had access to and took stuff from and meaning. View the Hebrews via Hebrew via the Hebrews. The late war, Napoleon. Yeah, the Book of Napoleon. So stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] All the sources that probably served as

Wayne Sermon [00:19:29] inspiration that very well could have.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] Plus the Bible.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:32] Plus the Bible. There's a lot of the Bible and the mistranslation of the Bible and the, that the fact that he, you know, translated incorrectly things that he had already put in the Book of Mormon and stuff like that. Like, you know, and I don't, I'm not really here to like yeah. List all that because you've done a great job going over all these points of people that are really interested to know all. There's probably 50 things in there that are. Should be really alarming to the. The church going, you know, every Sunday, church going member that doesn't know.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] And was the polygamy stuff.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:03] Joseph Smith's polygamy was a huge thing for me because it's. That was always Brigham Young's thing and why it was right for him and not for Joseph, I don't really know now. But the fact that Joseph Smith was free of it was sort of like the saving grace of polygamy. Because Mormons do know about polygamy but their knowledge is that it started with Brigham Young and then went on until it had to stop. But the fact that Joseph Smith had, you know, over 30 wives and sister couples and mother daughter couples and some that were already married to other men that were on missions and 14 year olds, 14 year olds, people that were in secret that Emma didn't know about.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:41] I think this, you know, wherever you land on it, it should be, it should at least be something that you explore. And I found it utterly shocking and for some reason completely believable. And me and Alex both kind of like thought it was really interesting after we read it, it's like you can read, you can live something your whole life. You can go to church every Sunday, you can read the scriptures every day. You can do all the right, honest, faithful things that you think are true inside the church and live it.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:17] Three hours of reading something that you already know deep down has some truth to it and you kind of have that it can just eradicate all that so quickly. Like, and that goes back to like dnc. It's like light is truth and it just pierces. It just pierced it for me. Like it got rid of all that, that bs and it's just something I knew.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:39] Even if half the things in the CES letter are wrong, even if you take the stance that, you know, if you take a stance that favors the church's view on it, you still have like 25 really big problems. You know, even if you give a generous reading to the, to the CDS letters as much as you can, you can't deny that there are Serious issues that are beyond an apologetic position. And I don't know what to say about it. I mean it's, it was also kind of heart wrenching too, to know that all this stuff was true. And I was really disappointed. The part of me was as true as I knew it felt to me and as I looked up all the references and kind of gather, gathered all this information for myself, it was also really sad. And I felt like, I felt like I was in another dimension.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] And I want to ask you, Alex, about your perspective, but for someone who wants to say, well, it's, it's Mormon stories fault or it's Jeremy Runnels fault or it's the CES letter's fault, what would you say in response to that? That you know, that, that they're the bad guys, I'm the bad guy, Jeremy's the bad guy. CS letters robbing people's faith. What would you say to that?

Wayne Sermon [00:22:49] Well, I think that depends on a lot of your perspective. I think there are people that will think that, but I have the opposite view of it. I, I, I think that people, anyone who's at least hon to bring questions to light.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:06] And you never, you never really struck me as an anti Mormon character. You've never struck me as that people have a view of a person when they hear anti Mormon, like when especially where I'm from, it's like an anti Mormon, like that's like a core horror thing and that that's to be taken. These people are not, they exude darkness. You'll know when you see them. And I think it was the same for, it's the same thing for as far as like doctrine is concerned in general. So you're taught that there's Mormon doctrine and you're taught that there's anti Mormon doctrine.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:41] And if something is not faith promoting to Mormonism, it's gonna, it's gonna end up right in the, in the category of anti Mormon. But the thing that you and Jeremy and other Dan Vogel and so many other people are bringing to light is that there's actually a third category that's massive and it's called objective historical truth.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:02] And no matter where you land on this stuff, you have to, I think you owe it to yourself to look into it for yourself. And it's, I think it's a door that has to be walked through by the person.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:14] And nothing I say, nothing you say, or nothing that Jeremy writes if the person's not ready to hear it or are not going to be open to at least the possibility that they're wrong, then it's. This isn't for them anyway. And they're probably not even engaged in this conversation, just like I wasn't for nine years.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] And we're fine with that because the purpose of this isn't to taint like we started.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:36] Right?

Alex Sermon [00:24:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] The purpose of this conversation is not to get other people out.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:40] No.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] But the purpose is to basically help people not feel alone and crazy and to help validate other people's experiences. And the truth is, I'm. I may be a messenger. Jeremy may be a messenger. Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalf, Michael Quinn, whoever, Carolyn Pears. We're messengers. But the message is we didn't create it. Right.

Alex Sermon [00:25:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] We didn't create it.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] And it's not us. It's their core problems that the church is now acknowledging through the essays. Gospel topics essays. But they didn't for a long time.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] So blame us. But it's. It's. We're. We're just the messengers. You know what I mean?

Wayne Sermon [00:25:19] Well, I'm certainly grateful that you guys are doing what you're doing. You know, it wasn't as easy to do this nine years ago, or however long ago you started. It was a different. It was. Even then, it was a lot different. And however much support there is for people like us now, I think it was a lot less when you first started, so.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Oh, yeah. Alex, what was it like for you, reading these things and learning these things?

Alex Sermon [00:25:41] I mean, my first reaction was it was exhilarating, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] Really. Oh. Because you had been waiting for that moment where it all clicked for you.

Alex Sermon [00:25:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] By this time, you're having kids and it's not clicking yet.

Alex Sermon [00:25:52] Exactly.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:53] How fun for you, babe.

Alex Sermon [00:25:54] It was super easy for me. I don't know what your problem is. No, I. I felt like it's just like, oh, makes sense. Yeah. I'm like, I wasn't crazy, you know, all this time. I'm the wrong one. I'm the sinner. I'm. I'm the one that just isn't ready for this gospel. That hit me over the head. I was like, oh, maybe I'm not the crazy one. You know, maybe it's okay that it never clicked, you know? So I found it at first. I mean, I went through kind of stages of grief after that.

Alex Sermon [00:26:28] The loss of, you know, I don't know how into much detail we'll get later, but, you know, the loss of, you know, my favorite concept of the church, which is eternal families, that was just such. That was the only thing That I really kind of held on to when I couldn't believe in anything else is just like, as long as we get to be together with our kids forever, all this other stuff, it, whatever, you know, doesn't matter. So, you know, that I went through later. But at first I just, again, I also gobbled it up and I, you know, the investigative journalist student in me just loved just diving into something that I felt was so taboo.

Alex Sermon [00:27:05] And finally in my life there was like, nothing is really taboo. You know, I'm open to explore things and I can be open minded. I don't have to have a perspective that an older gentleman told me to have and a political view that an older man told me to have. I can have an opinion that feels right to me personally and I'm not a bad person for that.

Alex Sermon [00:27:30] And I think all the villainization of Jeremy Runnels or you or anyone is just such a cop out. It's just it, the people are good or bad or I, you know, it's just so much more nuanced than that. And if they were to really listen or research, they would know that. And, and you know, people aren't binary like that. And it, it feels really good to hear people that, you know will list the positives as well as the negatives and you can kind of come to a conclusion yourself.

John Dehlin [00:28:01] Right?

Wayne Sermon [00:28:02] And then people have read this stuff and come to tough. Like, I know I have a friend, of course, bless his, I love him to death. He's a childhood friend of mine, Phil. I don't think you would care that I said his name. And he's read, he knows everything I know he, he's read the CS letter cover to cover, did all the references and came to the conclusion that the church is still true. And he's a happy member of the church.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Totally.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:21] And we argue about it all the time and we send emails to each other and you know, that kind of stuff. But it's like I don't care and he doesn't. Like we're still the same people, we're still childhood friends and like there are people that read what we read it and come to totally different conclusions. So I just want to state that,

Alex Sermon [00:28:38] yeah, no one's unintelligent for coming to a different conclusion. It's just, and there, there's just so many factors and there's so many ways in which Mormonism will fit or won't fit into your life and there's really, I, there just isn't really a wrong answer with how to live your Life.

Wayne Sermon [00:28:54] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:28:54] As long as you're not hurting anyone.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] Yeah. So an interesting metaphor that I've been talking about in our workshops and retreats for a long time is the Adam and Eve metaphor. And traditionally, in. In the Protestant interpretation of the. Of the Adam and Eve story, Eve is the temptress who eats from the tree for the. From the fruit of the tree of what? Of knowledge. Of good and evil.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] And she. She. She beseeches Adam to eat. And so in that sense, in traditional Christianity, she's viewed as the bad one, the one who tempted Adam and then made him fall. Right.

Alex Sermon [00:29:35] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] Now, the weird thing is, in Mormonism, it's flipped, and that's viewed as an act of free agency and an act of enlightenment and of wisdom. So Eve's the good. The good character, not the bad one.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] For family and friends that are listening to your story, they're like, well, Wayne lost his faith because Alex tempted him. Right.

Alex Sermon [00:29:56] I hope so.

John Dehlin [00:29:57] So. So, Wayne, if someone wanted to pin this on Alex, not me or Jeremy or whoever or. But Alex, what would you say to that?

Wayne Sermon [00:30:06] I can't say the words because the children might be listening. No, it was. It was. We certainly do everything together.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] Every.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:14] Every decision we've ever made has been together. And this is something. It's like, I. You wouldn't. You wouldn't pin this on anyone. Like, any one of us. It was. It was. It was a group effort. We. We pull each other down equally, I would say.

Alex Sermon [00:30:29] And also just. I. I just don't really care about people who judge a situation falsely.

John Dehlin [00:30:36] I just.

Alex Sermon [00:30:37] Yeah, I don't care if you think that that's not what happened, and that's okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] So what did happen from your perspective?

Wayne Sermon [00:30:47] I mean, I think it's. I think you just took a step. You were brave enough to take the first step. How I see it, we were. It's not like we were both like, what's happening? We want to figure this out. Let's. Let's really figure out this out for ourselves. So we were both already there. It's like, you know, someone has to take that first step, or else nothing happens. It's like you got to take the first step and, you know, start a podcast or else, because it's a lot easier to be silent and not do anything. So, you know, it takes acts of bravery to. To go to the next level. And I don't know if I would have done that without Alex.

Alex Sermon [00:31:20] So, to be fair, it all felt very accidental. I was looking for a good story. Heard about this Letter. I love letters. Who doesn't love mail? So, no, but it was all, like. It was crazy. It just this. It kind of just snowballed. It was just like a half hour of me starting a very beginning of a podcast, opening this letter. It was just so fast. And it's like, even, like every time, like, say, I found out that we're. That I'm pregnant, it's like I literally. It's like all those people that do the cute surprises, it's like, nope, I'm telling you right now because this. I just can't have this information. It's like we just kind of share the weight of our ups, our downs, everything.

Wayne Sermon [00:32:03] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [00:32:06] So. So then there'll be people, and I know you don't care about what people think, but there'll be people who think, well, they're living the rock star life by this point and they just needed an out. Right. Can you talk about how hard that dark night of the soul. Was it hard? And if so, what. What was. What was it like for you to have your kind of world fall apart? Was it hard?

Wayne Sermon [00:32:29] Yeah, I mean, that whole.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Or was it great or both?

Wayne Sermon [00:32:32] That's why we stayed in for so long again.

Alex Sermon [00:32:34] It's complicated.

Wayne Sermon [00:32:34] Yeah. It's that whole. That's why we. I was over 30 years old and had no idea about my own church. That's. It was that feeling of, like, not being a cliche and like, it was annoying to me to even the idea of, like, being what you are basically preached not to do is when you get prideful. Pride always comes before the fall, and that's just, you know, slammed into you. So. Yeah. And that. That's. Why do you think we stood in, you know, stayed in the church for so long? It was for that very reason that we didn't want to become that cliche. But I don't know.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:12] I think at a certain point, you. You have to be. Yeah. It's just. Are you in a place where you're ready to hear the truth and are. You know, because even if you can't lead a horse to water, and you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink, and that's. I feel like that's true for us, too. It's like, I was open. I was in a place where I was open to hearing it, and if people aren't in a place where they're open to hearing this stuff, then by all means, like, turn it off or, you know, do anything that makes you feel better.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:40] About it. But I think anyone who is still listening, it's like they've either been through this or else they're at least open enough to consider other possibilities. So that's who we're really here to speak to.

The Dark Night of the Soul and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:33:50] But was it hard talk about what it was like to go through that. It's called the Dark night of the Soul. Was it that for you? And if so, how?

Alex Sermon [00:34:00] I mean, definitely. I think the people that I. It's just. It's kind of the foundation of your whole life. And it's not only this life, but what your next life is. And so that's big picture stuff. And to think that it's not what you thought, and then if you don't think that, what do you think about anything? And if you were wrong about that, then what else have you been wrong about?

Alex Sermon [00:34:25] So, yeah, it was grappling with that. And I think it took a little bit to you know, figure out, okay, so now who do I trust? If I don't have someone telling me, if I don't have a book that guides all this information for me, I.

Alex Sermon [00:34:40] What I have intuition. I'm supposed to listen to that now. I thought it was the Holy Ghost and. Yeah, I mean, I think there was a lot of hard times. I mean, was just kind of snowballing a little bit at the beginning.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:54] Yeah, we just looked at each other a lot and just like, what's happening right now? Like, it was kind of hell for me. I mean, it was. It was a really dark time. And I.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] What was hard about it?

Wayne Sermon [00:35:04] I think the biggest thing was like, I think. I think a certain way now about things and my family. I'm now separated from my family forever. Or at least there's going to be a wall there.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] Parents and.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:17] Parents and siblings. Yeah, I don't really. I mean, people will think what they want, but like, I care a lot about what my siblings think of me because my siblings are all extremely good people. They're the best people I know. I'm the black sheep. I'm like, you know, there. I look up to all of them

John Dehlin [00:35:32] and who wants to be a black sheep, Right?

Wayne Sermon [00:35:34] Exactly. And my parents, obviously, who I've.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] You know, you adore them, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:35:38] I adore them. And the sermons are not disappointers in their parents. You know, it's. That's a big. A big thing is not to disappoint your parents.

John Dehlin [00:35:44] Like I was talking to. I'll say it. I hope he doesn't mind. I was talking to Robert before and he Told me that your. Your dad or your parents bought the first touring bus for Imagine Dragons.

Wayne Sermon [00:35:54] Still own it, the Dragon Wagon.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] So. Well, you know that was your D, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:35:58] Yes. He's number one supporter of the band. He is our number one fan. I would dispute anyone claiming that but him. Yeah. Hugely supportive. And who wants to.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] Who wants to disappoint that and.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:09] Yeah, who. Who would. Who would. And I. I felt like he wouldn't look at me the same. And it was just like, how am I supposed to breach this gap? What can I do? Like, it's like half of me wanted to take the blue pill and just forget it all. And half of me was glad that I. I knew now. And it was really disruptive time. And I just felt like, you know, I'm so grateful I had Alex to kind of help me through if I was going on my own. I. You know, and thank goodness for you and listening to these Mormon stories because we would just like, put the kids to bed.

Wayne Sermon [00:36:40] Put the kids to bed. And then we would make dinner together and put on a podcast and like, hear from people who have gone through the same thing that we are going through now and have come out the other side and had a lot of really great advice, not the least of which was. Not the least of which was how to tell your family if you're going to tell your family, and how you reach that subject with your family and that. So that, that was really helpful. And when I ultimately decided to do

John Dehlin [00:37:06] so, if somebody's learning about Mormon stories for the first time or other podcasts or whatever, are there any specific families or people that meant a lot to you that you would want to tell people to listen to if they're going through something similar? Any recommendations or. That's putting you on the spot to remember.

Alex Sermon [00:37:22] I mean, I loved the one you did with the self on the shelf

John Dehlin [00:37:26] with Samantha and Tanner.

Alex Sermon [00:37:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] That affected Tyler. Tyler Glenn.

Alex Sermon [00:37:30] The Tyler Glenn one was amazing for us and I feel like relatable for him. Tom Phillips was a big one.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:40] Tom Phillips was a great one.

Alex Sermon [00:37:41] I mean, there's just so many. Yeah, I mean, we really just devoured it.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:45] Exhaustive, you know, retelling of just the amount of knowledge knows about Joseph Smith and I think a really fair interpretation of what he might have been like as a person. And I thought it was really fascinating the amount of work he's done.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] It's.

Wayne Sermon [00:37:58] It's really impressive. Jimmy Reynolds interview was really great too. A lot of really good ones.

Alex Sermon [00:38:05] Yeah, there's really so, so, so many okay, that's not.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] That's not to get praise. It's just. It's helpful for people to know. I mean, there's 1100 episodes right now. Right?

Wayne Sermon [00:38:16] It's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Where do they start?

Alex Sermon [00:38:18] Yeah. I also listened to Year of Polygamy, which was insane and dark at times and really powerful and enlightening, and I. I would suggest it to anyone who has questions about Joseph Smith's plugin.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:35] Yeah, I remember you telling me about that stuff, and I, like, you would. I wouldn't listen to it all that much, but you would. And then you would tell me what was in it, and I just. My job. Every episode, my job would drop. Like, these women were essentially treated like cattle or property and bandied about and traded, you know, from one husband to the next. What those women endured under polygamy, that's. That's enough to stop in your tracks, man.

Alex Sermon [00:38:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Okay. All right. So it was so you. You didn't want to disappoint your. Your parents and your siblings. Your whole life comes apart. So what did you guys do? Did you come out to everyone? Did you keep it quiet for a while?

Alex Sermon [00:39:12] I mean, for a while, I think we just continued to research and just kind of, like, keep our head down, and we kept really quiet about it. Like we said at the beginning, our two best friends were going through the same thing at the same time, and we saw them all the time, and it's just.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] You didn't tell them? No.

Alex Sermon [00:39:30] You know, why hurt their testimonies just because we lost ours. So, you know, I don't think we talk to anyone. I talk to strangers about it all the time, though. I would go to yoga, and I would somehow bring it up with a stranger. I don't even talk to strangers. I. Kind of social anxiety, if you can't tell, but very millennial of me. But I. I would talk about it to everyone I possibly could that had no connection to Mormonism. And they were like, I don't know what you're saying. I mean. Or I'd call my high school friends, and I'm like, hey, remember that? Like, those times you made fun of me? I mean, not seriously, like, bullied me, but, you know, teased me, but, like, let's talk about that. And they're like, okay, I have no frame of reference for anything you're saying. Yeah, but, yeah, it was, you know, I felt.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] So you feel alone? Did you feel alone? Did you feel.

Alex Sermon [00:40:25] Yes, I'm. Yes. In terms of not being able to, like, talk to my mom, I. I still talk to my mom a little bit, but. And she. When she converted to the church, she said she knew a lot of this information from, like, old church tapes. She said it was kind of more open. But I'm like, okay, well, you didn't share the information with me. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:40:47] So she's like, oh, you didn't know that? I'm like, no, Mom, I did not know that. So I, I would talk to her a little, but I was still very cautious. I'm still kind of cautious with my parents, just out of respect and. Yeah. But I. I didn't really feel alone because we were talking about it together all, all night whenever we weren't working or.

Wayne Sermon [00:41:10] And I'm. I'm pretty. I'm a pretty active lurker on the. The subreddit.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] Ex Mormon subreddit.

Wayne Sermon [00:41:16] And I've seen, I mean, not only on your show, but on. On Reddit, that there's so many people that are going through this without the support of their spouse. And, man, my heart really goes out to you. The people out there that are going through that by themselves. I cannot imagine having these existential doubts about arguably the most important things in the universe and not being able to share your perspective with the person you're supposed to love the most. That, to me would be like purgatory. So I really feel for those people.

Alex Sermon [00:41:48] Yeah. Like, I. If I really wanted to stay in it after all this information, I think you would probably just suck it up and vice versa. Just because, you know, it's like you've built life together, and then now you kind of got to be on the same page as the. For this.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:04] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:42:04] I can't imagine.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Okay, so you. You kept it kind of to yourselves, but you were in a good place. And that would have been. That's 2014. That's five years ago. I mean, I remember when an email came through and I'm like, oh, wow, Wayne Sermon. Who's that? You know, because I. I'd known Imagine Dragons, but I didn't. So I've known about that. You were a listener for at least four or five years.

Alex Sermon [00:42:33] Yeah, we felt after. We were like, we've probably listened to 300 hours. I think we should donate.

John Dehlin [00:42:38] So you. You said in a donation, thank you.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:40] You don't know me, but I know you.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] I appreciated that. That was great. Yeah. But. But I mean, that's so many years between then and now. So, I mean, that's.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:50] That was a. At least a year of not saying anything to anybody.

Alex Sermon [00:42:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:55] And then finally talking to like my friends and Brittany. Talking to Dan and his wife Asia about it a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Okay, so eventually it took a year. Wait, let me just get this straight. You guys went a year not believing without talking to Dan Reynolds, your. Your group partner? Yeah. Is that right?

Alex Sermon [00:43:13] Probably.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:14] Or maybe a little less, but I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] But I mean, it's probably something like that. And without talking to your best.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:19] Uh huh.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Isn't that crazy?

Wayne Sermon [00:43:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] What is it?

Wayne Sermon [00:43:23] I mean, so, I mean, maybe I would have, I didn't have Alex, but. But yeah. You don't feel like it's, it's your place to overstep. It's like, who are you to step on someone's testimony and if they want. I've always been the kind of person that's like, you live your truth, I'm not going to step on. Right. On your ability to think whatever you want. So a lot of it was that too.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] What do you want to say about when you finally were. Felt comfortable coming out to Dan and Asia and how that was? Was it like a awesome bond? Was it like cathartic? Was it.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:53] It was more just like I just said to Dan, like, hey, are you. Where, where's. Where, where is your head with the church? Because I knew, you know, the lyrics to his albums are, you know, I, I know, I know him and I know I can read between lines pretty easily with him and where he's at and there's not a lot of secrets there. I think. I don't remember the conversation. I think it was just like, I think we might have talked about Mormon stories or the CS letter. And he's like, yeah, I read it. I was like, what? What do you mean you read it? I think you ready even before I did. And it's just like he didn't. I don't think he felt like coming to me about it either. You know, I think it was a two way thing.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] And was there a big relief when you found out you guys were on the same page?

Wayne Sermon [00:44:31] It was, it was.

Alex Sermon [00:44:32] I mean, it's like, it's like meeting someone who's also Mormon. You have that. Oh, it's like we have the same, you know, it's like we have something in common. And then now it's like, oh, you read the CES letter. Okay, we're on the same page, you know, you know some stuff. I know some stuff.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] Yep.

Alex Sermon [00:44:47] Yeah. It was a big relief.

John Dehlin [00:44:49] Yeah. And Asia, were you guys able to talk about it?

Alex Sermon [00:44:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:44:54] She's really open minded.

Alex Sermon [00:44:55] She's really open minded.

John Dehlin [00:44:56] She's a convert.

Alex Sermon [00:44:57] So. Yeah, I think it was a really positive experience to just be able to, you know, it's just one of those things where you're like, how have we not talked about this?

Wayne Sermon [00:45:07] Yeah. And then. And they're obviously in their own place with it now and.

Alex Sermon [00:45:10] Right. And I'm not. Yeah. And I'm not sure where they are exactly. And that's their personal journey, but it's just refreshing to be able to be open and they're definitely people that we can always be open with about this and there's no taboo subject which we're really grateful for.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] So I remember every once in a while a ex Mormon Reddit post would come up that's like, here's some lyrics to an Imagine Dragon song. It sounds like Dan might be going through a faith crisis, but we're not. You know, people weren't sure.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] But that was mostly the third album. Right. Not the second?

Wayne Sermon [00:45:41] Oh, a lot of the second. It was second and third, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:45:44] But. But people were speculating about it in the second. I know, I know that that was informing the second album.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] But in my mind it wasn't until the third album where people were like really going, wait a minute. Yeah, it's something unraveling here. It. But is that not what you experienced? Were people. Did you have people come to you and say, wait a minute, these lyrics in the second album, there's something going on here?

Wayne Sermon [00:46:05] Yeah. The second album we had that a little bit for sure. And I think he was still going through that. I think it's still an evolution for him too.

John Dehlin [00:46:11] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:12] So I think it's probably the same feelings he had in the second album. I think some of those same feelings he's having for the third. And obviously, you know, in his creation of Love Loud, you know, I think, I think it's really smart to try and effect change from inside. That's really the only way that you're going to have effective change is if you, you know, don't attack something, but try and change it and you believe in something and just want to see it get better. So I really appreciate his perspective on it. It's not necessarily one I can 100 share. I just, it's. For some reason I essentially I've. My records are off the church and I. I had to get to a place where I just resigned from the whole organization and felt way more confident in that decision than, you know, any. Anything inside the church. So.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] So before I follow up on that. Let me just ask. So there, you know, in non Mormonism and just like mainstream Christianity, whether it's Catholicism, Presbyterians, Methodist, Lutheran, it's not like this. It's just like none of us take the Bible too seriously. None of us take.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:15] Be.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Become a Presbyterian, become a Methodist, like, who cares, you're Christian. It's, it informs your life. It's not who you are. And just be a buffet, whatever you are. Take what you like, leave what you don't, and just, you know, like the salt, it's, it's not the meal, it's just the savoring. Be a, be a buffet, whatever you are. Right. And Mormonism, of course, we grew up in a time where that was never a possibility. We grew up, maybe I did. I don't know about you, but like Bruce Armaconki, all or nothing. It's either everything or it's a fraud. It's either all true or a fraud. That's what I grew up in. Are you saying that's what you grew up in?

Wayne Sermon [00:47:54] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] So, so I know that it wasn't, that wasn't necessarily viewed as a possibility. Having said that, I also think that by 2000 and you know, 13, 14, 15 models were starting to emerge of progressive Mormonism. The givens is, were coming out with their stuff and, and Bushman was sticking in and apologetics, neo apologetics started emerging with Patrick Mason and, and that kind of stuff.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] Thomas McConkey. So did you guys just consider. Wait a minute, what? Okay, yes, we were taught the binary true false paradigm. Yes, we were taught the all or nothing thing. But we can be a first generation and in some sense your dad was a first generation of just like, why not, why not just be cultural buffet Mormons that didn't leave, didn't. Weren't orthodox, but just did Mormonism on your own terms. Did you consider that and if so, what happened?

Wayne Sermon [00:48:52] I've actually thought a lot about this subject.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] I want to hear all about it.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:56] So I think a lot has to do with my personality. But the way I see it is Mormonism is essentially trying to be like Judaism or Islam. And what I mean by that is like Islam and Judaism were wilderness religions, right? They like the very characteristics of when they were made is what was, what defines it. So they were made in the wilderness, where it's not only a religion, like that's part of it, but it's also your culture, it's your laws, it's what you eat, it's this dress, you know, I mean, it's how you dress, it's this whole encompassing thing. And Islam's the same way.

Wayne Sermon [00:49:36] Like, it's like these like religions that were built in isolation. So Mormonism, I think is, tries to become that. I think that's one way to describe it. Like it's this one stop shop. Like, don't worry about anything. We. This is the kind of underwear you wear. This is, you know, what you do on Sundays, what you don't eat, what you eat, what you eat, what you don't eat. This is when, what you don't drink. This is what you do on Mondays. This is what your Saturdays are gonna look like with the service. It's like this whole like thing where it's just like you just, it's all there for you and it's taken care of.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:08] Just like these like wilderness religions that are really old. But that's just the thing, like, that's a difference, I feel like. And my problem is that maybe I can get past, maybe you have input on this. But for me, Mormon, Mormonism doesn't have this like grand underpinning like of millennia that, where it's like this race of people and it's this pride and it's this thing, you know, with Mormonism, like you can, you can like look down the road and you can see the con happening. You can, These people wrote things down. It wasn't that long ago.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] So there's a record. You're saying it was a record, a written record.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:48] And I'm not saying, I, I just to be clear, I think is Islam and Judaism are just as false as far as like supernatural claims as Mormonism. I see them as the same, but,

John Dehlin [00:50:59] and oddly Mormons would be okay with that. It's okay that Islam and Judaism, right.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:03] Don't have it.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:04] And so I see Christian and I think even Christianity in general, like just is a different thing than the other two religion, big religions. Because if you look at Christianity and where it was made, it doesn't have quite that gravity to it because it was made when the Roman Empire was already there to four laws and for culture in some respects. And yeah, you can live within that, but it's not this all encompassing thing. Like Christianity in itself isn't even that.

John Dehlin [00:51:33] Like, it's like there's no, there's no dietary code.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:36] Right. In the New Testament, Catholicism is, gets close and it's one of the oldest, you know, examples of Christianity. But like it's still not, it's not the same thing. And so Mormonism, I think wants to claim that that sort of structure without really the millennia to, like, get behind it. And that's the part for me. It's like, that's eventually why I decided.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:56] It's like the foundations of the thing for me are the problem and the fact that I can see them being made falsely. It really just ruins the whole thing for me. You know, the whole thing is built on sand for me. So that's why I have a really hard time with, like, well, just be cultural. Go to church. Yeah, you don't really believe it, but. But like, no, like, the whole foundation of this church is based on what Joseph Smith saw and his being truthful in his accounts. That. That's the bread and butter. That's as Hinckley said, either this is. Either he saw these things or they didn't.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:27] This thing is a fraud. And sadly, I've come to the second conclusion. And so that's why I, you know, I see the merits of religion, obviously I see the merits of Mormonism and all the good that it does, but I just can't get myself. That's just not who I am. To, like, be able to just be like, you know, it's not true, but let's just, like, there's better things for me to build a foundation on, like, if you're gonna go to church than. Than this man.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] So for you, it's a Sandy foundation. It's not a solid foundation. How about for you, Alex? Because we've talked about, on Mormon stories, this idea of validity Mormons and utility Mormons. A validity Mormon is like, it's true or false, and I'm in it because it's true. And if it's not true, then I'm out because it's false. A utility Mormon is like, well, it works for me. It's a great place. It helps keep my marriage strong. It's a great place to raise kids. It makes me a better person. And so I'm a Mormon because it makes me happy and it makes me a better person and it's good for my life. And oftentimes it's the woman who's more of a utilitarian, and it's. It's the man who cares more about validity. How has it been for you?

Alex Sermon [00:53:33] I guess I'm the man. No, I don't know if it. It's not like it was working for me to begin with. And I felt like that's why we're strong. That's why our kids are good people. I look at my kids and I see that they're good because they Genuinely don't want to hurt another person.

Alex Sermon [00:53:55] And they don't know who Jesus is. Actually, someone asked who this was in a picture, and we said, oh, it's Jesus. And River's like, Chuck E. Cheeses. Like, he just really has no idea. But yet those same, like, Christ like attributes that are described in the Bible, I. I see in him. And it's not because we go to church and he's taught that. It's just because we're a strong family. And he genuinely just chooses. Right. I guess. I mean, except when he doesn't, but.

Alex Sermon [00:54:30] So I don't know. I just felt like it just. I couldn't commit to something that I just didn't believe in. I just. I have a really hard time. I. I can't really put on a false face about something. I. If I think something, I say it. I, as Daniel, could tell you I'm a really bad liar. I can't even hide a Christmas present. It's just.

Alex Sermon [00:54:57] I'm not gonna say I believe something that I don't. And I feel like when you go to church and you're a Mormon, that's what you do. I mean, you go up on the stand and you say it, and otherwise you're an Other. And I don't want to go. And I didn't want to be an Other. I didn't want our kids to be treated like others. And so I didn't feel like it was right for our family.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] So how. There's kind of two considerations that. And I was talking to Robert about this too. There's kind of two big considerations about, like, going from that point where you no longer believe and can't attend and even take your name off the record and coming out of Mormon Stories podcast episode. Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:45] That's.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] That's different. And. And even you talked about not wanting. And. And I think that's still the intent. Not trying to take people's faith away. We're not trying to get people out of the church. We still love the church. We still love Mormons. I do. I know you do. So I can think of at least two big considerations. Maybe three when. When you try and decide whether or not to do an interview like this. Right. One is actually, I'm gonna pause, I guess, before then there's coming out to your family.

Alex Sermon [00:56:21] Oh, we haven't done that.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] Oops. Let's talk about that, and then we'll talk about. Sure. This interview. So let's talk about telling family how and when. How long did you wait for that?

Coming Out to Family and Finding a New Path

Wayne Sermon [00:56:32] Two years.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Okay.

Alex Sermon [00:56:34] Maybe more. Two and a half. We told them last year, man.

Wayne Sermon [00:56:39] I. I just blinked and I'm 35, honestly, like, I. I don't know why I can't remember any.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] That's four years. I mean, 2014. Last year is 18.

Alex Sermon [00:56:48] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:56:48] Let's say short. Yeah, Sounds good.

Alex Sermon [00:56:50] Yeah. What it was when we were on tour last year. Yes, Last summer.

Wayne Sermon [00:56:55] I just go day to day, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:56:58] So you went anywhere between two and four years without telling family?

Wayne Sermon [00:57:01] Yes.

Alex Sermon [00:57:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:02] And. And you were just scared, right?

Wayne Sermon [00:57:04] Yeah, and I had a lot of anxiety about that, to be honest. And the reason I ultimately ended up wanting to tell him was I thought it makes me feel a little better about everything because.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] So sitting with this. Yeah, everyone's thinking one thing, but you're feeling. Exactly. And that feels like what.

Wayne Sermon [00:57:20] It was starting to become a problem for me. Like, the problem is that in the absence of a narrative, they could very well make up their own.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] And what's wrong with that?

Wayne Sermon [00:57:30] I think the biggest thing that's wrong with that is that they can fill in the gaps with the. With any cliche they want. Like, and I know that my family, my siblings, they love me and they. I don't. I'm not saying that they thought I was somehow a bad person at any point in this, but I just didn't. I just wanted to get to get my own control of the narrative, because I didn't. I want to let them know that I wasn't leaving for any of the reasons they might think where money, success, fame, pride, not needing it anymore, and just, you know, becoming some kind of intellectual, that's too good for it, or can, you know, any of those reasons.

Wayne Sermon [00:58:09] The only reason I told him is because I. I couldn't have that be said thought of me to the world, I don't really care, but to my siblings and my mom and my dad, I do care. And so ultimately I ended up telling them, and I followed, you know, a lot of advice that you give to do it. You know, I. I kept it somewhat quick and didn't write.

Alex Sermon [00:58:30] Put it in writing.

Wayne Sermon [00:58:31] Didn't put in writing. I just called each. Each person individually because we were in different states and just said, you know, I try to do as lovingly as possible and say, I love you guys. And I know this can be a really huge hit, and it's a really hard thing for you to hear and for me to say, but I don't believe in Mormonism anymore, and I've left the church, and I just, you know, nothing else has Changed, still love you guys and I know you love me. And you know, I think a really good idea is to have some healthy boundaries with what we talk about and how we talk about it.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:03] I'm always happy to speak about religion. There's no subject that's off topic for me. But I know that, you know, you might not want to. And so if you want to talk to me about it, that's great. But I just want to let you know it's going to be a two way dialogue and don't bring it up

John Dehlin [00:59:22] if you don't want to talk about it.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:23] That's right. And so, and the last thing I want to say is I will not be a cautionary tale for this family. I will not be a cautionary tale for your kids.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] Meaning what?

Wayne Sermon [00:59:37] To look what happens when you lose faith and that you have, when you get success in your life and you get prideful and look, look what can happen to a person. You know, as great as he was that he can leave the church. That's how powerful the devil is or whatever. That kind of stuff I just won't have said of me and I don't think my siblings would, of course. But like, I just want, I just want to make it really clear that like the reason I'm leaving, leaving is because of the history of the church and the actual doctrine that I think is false.

Wayne Sermon [01:00:03] That's, that's it. It's not the other stuff that you think that other people might think it is not that I don't think any of my siblings, I mean they're really charitable people and I, I think I was overly worried honestly, because their responses were over overwhelmingly positive. Every one of my siblings proved to be even better than I thought they were as people because they said, we totally understand, we love you, you're still our brother. You're always going to be our brother. And I think they were probably shocked by it all, but I think I should have given, in hindsight, I should have given them more credit than I did because as much of this weight that Mormonism has to it and maybe people hearing this are like, this seems so silly.

Wayne Sermon [01:00:44] Like you know, people that aren't super religious or that aren't raised non Mormons don't get it. They don't get this and I totally get that. But for, for me it was like so validating to know that they chose me over their religion and they would never shun me and they never not invite me to a family activity. It's like, no, you're still Our brother, Like, it's all good. Like. And I was prepared for them never not to ask any questions about my perspective, luckily, because they didn't.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:16] It's like, you know, I still couldn't help but think, like, well, if it was me, wouldn't I want to ask, like, well, what happened? What happened?

John Dehlin [01:01:22] What?

Wayne Sermon [01:01:22] Find out.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] Like, you're smart, I trust you. What happened?

Wayne Sermon [01:01:25] But no, it's. It's radio silence on that front end.

Alex Sermon [01:01:27] That was probably the most surprising.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:29] Yeah. And. But that's totally fine. And I understand.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] Normal.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:31] It's the most normal. Totally.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Of all things.

Alex Sermon [01:01:33] It's still so crazy.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] They don't want to know.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] Because they're happy.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] Or happy enough.

Wayne Sermon [01:01:37] Or.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Yeah. They don't want.

Alex Sermon [01:01:39] Which is great.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] Yeah. What about. Do you want to share anything about how it was with your parents?

Wayne Sermon [01:01:44] My parents. I talked to my dad in person, and, you know, he's. How to describe him? He's. He's one of the greatest people I've ever known, and if not the greatest person. And he, you know, obviously he holds, you know, high position in the church and he's a stake president. Yeah. It could look bad for him or, you know, maybe, you know, you think maybe be worried about that and, like, you know, this staying on the family and, you know, potential other leadership positions or anything. Like, he. At the end of the day, he doesn't care about any of the stuff. He. He was totally supporting and said, I understand, and it doesn't matter, and I love you and you'll always be my son.

Wayne Sermon [01:02:21] And only, really, the only thing that mattered to him is that I was still the person that he raised. And I said to him, look, I firmly believe I'm a good person. Not because of the church. I'm a good person because of you and mom and that you happen to put a lot of care into raising five kids. And that's the reason we're good. And so don't give the church too much credit on this. I think, you know, I'm going to continue to be a good person. I'm going to be faithful to my wife.

Wayne Sermon [01:02:50] I'm going to get as good a father as I can be, and nothing's going to change on that front. That's. That's the only concern he had, is that I wouldn't fly out the deep end. As, you know, you hear sometimes happens when people leave religion. It's like, even growing up, like, in Utah, it's like. There's this, like, weird thing you probably noticed, too, is like, there's not like any in between. Like, when kids rebel in Utah, they rebel hard.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:16] Right. It's not much like they want to

John Dehlin [01:03:17] become the opposite of what. Exactly.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:19] It's not like, you know, this isn't for me. You know, just on an intellectual level, I'm still totally with you guys, and I still. The morals are great. It's like, I'm gonna get a tattoo.

Alex Sermon [01:03:30] It's like the Catholic schoolgirl thing. Like, when you rebel, you rebel hard.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:36] Tell me more about that. Yeah. So where was I? Yeah, that's distracted.

John Dehlin [01:03:42] So you basically told your dad that you're gonna stay the same old dad.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:45] Yes. Yep. And he's totally cool with it. My mom was probably the hardest to tell. Family is everything. And she's really sweet, and, you know, family is everything.

Alex Sermon [01:03:54] Grew up in Lehigh.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:55] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [01:03:56] And lived in American Fork her whole life.

Wayne Sermon [01:03:58] And just really believes in that. Like, I think, you know, the whole fact that there's a possibility that we may not be together as a family forever, that was. That's the thing that I think really upset her. And so she was really emotional. And I tried to be as consoling as I could, and.

Wayne Sermon [01:04:14] But it was really difficult. But I just felt like it's something I had to do, and I'm glad I did it. I think it ended up being an overall positive thing to do, just, you know, clear the air a little bit and just to get on same page. And ever since then, it's been fine. It doesn't really come up at all. It's never been a topic that's been breached since then, really, in any crazy manner. So. And that's totally fine. And the more time passes, the more I don't care.

Wayne Sermon [01:04:44] And I'm super happy with them being Mormon. And if it works for them, then I am super glad. And I'm not just saying that. I genuinely don't care if they believe, if they think the way, the same way I do, because you can't live your life like that.

John Dehlin [01:04:55] And are you still feeling welcome in your family?

Wayne Sermon [01:04:58] Oh, 100%.

John Dehlin [01:04:59] Feeling like a disappointment, you said. Did you say black Sheep or.

Wayne Sermon [01:05:02] Yeah, I had worries about that.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [01:05:05] But I don't feel that way, really. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] So it's kind of a happy ending.

Wayne Sermon [01:05:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] With the family. That's great.

Wayne Sermon [01:05:12] They're awesome, and we're totally cool and no issues. That's great.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] That's rare.

Wayne Sermon [01:05:16] It really feels like nothing has changed. And, like, they're, like, the only people that haven't treated me differently through like, all the famous success and all that stuff, they're just. They still give me a hard time and I'm still just like the runty younger brother and, you know, you're cool with that? They're going to wrestle me to the ground.

Alex Sermon [01:05:31] Scrappy, though.

Wayne Sermon [01:05:32] I'm scrappy, but, yeah, and I love that.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] That's.

Part 5 of 5 · Ep. 1185

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Alex, how was it for you did coming out to your family? If you want to share.

Alex Sermon [00:00:38] I know, I. Mine is a little more fluid, you know, I. It's. Some of the relationships are more complicated. I have siblings that aren't a part of the church anymore, so it's just not really, I guess, discussed as openly. My mom knows I haven't really come out and talked to my dad about it more because he's intimidating in this way. And I, I don't know if it'll turn into a debate and I'm not really game for it right now, but.

Alex Sermon [00:01:09] But I think everyone is just kind of aware of where we stand and I don't know, it's just. Yeah. And my family, it's not as much in the forefront right now. People aren't as active and so it just, it's very non judgmental and feel in a good place and I think it helps that this has happened. So we went through the transition so long ago that I don't feel like I need. I don't, I don't know, I just don't feel like that wrestling feeling anymore of I guess needing to talk about it all the time. I kind of feel like it's pretty Zen about it.

Alex Sermon [00:01:50] And so I think the people around us feel that from us that we are at peace with where we're at and we're not, I don't know, conflicted about it or angry at all. We're just kind of in a good place. And I think our families can read that.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:04] Yeah, I mean, there's still some risk to coming out and talking about stuff because obviously their relationships matter more to me than anything. I don't know if they're even aware of this podcast or, you know, my dad Google Google alerts, anything with my name in it. And so, you know, I'm not sure the Richard will have to be honest, but at the end of the day, you know, hopefully beyond my own personal circumstances, this is good for people and that this will help people out there, you know, and I also thought a lot about this and like, as far as history, I feel like there have been a lot, a lot of people that have sacrificed a lot more in this pursuit of some kind of truth.

Wayne Sermon [00:02:46] You know, look at Socrates, who was essentially killed for corrupting the youth or, you know, trying to teach them to think for themselves. And Spinoza, the famous philosopher, was attacked and shunned by the Jewish community for daring to question the Pentateuch and the teachings of the Bible and trying to embrace some kind of rationality. And Galileo was put in jail for daring to postulate that we might not be the center of the universe and that we actually orbit the sun.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:13] So I think it should also cause. Come as a reminder to people that there was a time when religion had a lot more power than it has now. And what times were like and what, what it was like to try and stand up to something, you know, and how religion sort of can come to us now in this sort of ingratiating way and smiley way, because over time it's had to give so much.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:34] But, you know, if we remember what it's like when they had real power, it was a lot harder to come forward with this kind of stuff. So by that comparison, this is a pretty meager, you know, attempt to at least do our part, to live our truth, as the cliche goes, help anyone

Alex Sermon [00:03:50] that is in a similar position.

Wayne Sermon [00:03:55] So.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] So now, going back to the question that I was setting up before, I asked about coming out to family, and I'm glad you've had such great. I think you would also acknowledge that so many people become disappointments to their parents. They could cure cancer and they'd be viewed as a disappointment. Sometimes they're cut out of the text chains. They're not invited to things. They. They feel awful about who they are. They lose relationships.

Wayne Sermon [00:04:21] Yep.

Alex Sermon [00:04:22] So much sympathy for that.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] So hearts go out to them. You guys had. Had it, had it good. And your parents both are remarkable people. But. So there I was talking to Robert a bit about this before. There are at least two big, big considerations, maybe three when you decide whether or not to tell your story publicly. You just addressed this, but I want to just dig a tiny bit deeper. So one is that it will make families sad. It's like, it's one thing to lose your faith and stop attending church and maybe even resign.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] It's another thing to go on a podcast where the. The host has been excommunicated, is viewed as an enemy of the church and as apostate. And to tell the world, it's like, why can't you just keep it quiet? So there's. There's the risk of disappointing family when you do that. Making it, some would say, rubbing salt in the wound. There's already a wound. They're being great about it. It probably still hurts.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] And then there's also like a commercial business slash consideration, like bands thrive kind of with super fans, you know, and. And it's gotta be that a chunk of your Imagine Dragons fan base are Mormons, right? Devout orthodox Mormons. I can't imagine a business upside to this. Although maybe, maybe there is. I think no one's smart enough to really know, but it certainly introduces risk. Risk of hurting family's feelings. Risk of, you know, not being great for business.

Wayne Sermon [00:05:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] How do. How. What made you say no, I still want to do this? Meaning this interview.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:06] Yeah. I mean, those are so.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] And again, you don't want to take people out of the church either.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:09] Right?

John Dehlin [00:06:09] So, like.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:10] Yeah, I think so. I think this can go both ways. So to people that are. Happen to be super religious or in any stripe or are more, you know, specifically Mormon that are listening to this. And I think it's two. I think, because I think the perception of someone like me can be that since you are still Mormon, I look down on you. I see you as dumb. I see you as intellectually inferior in some way or that you've been misled, you've been duped. And so it's like, obviously, you know, there's a separation.

Wayne Sermon [00:06:49] And that's what I hate about religion. Right. There is that separation. I don't care what religion you are, as long, like Alex, as long as you're not hurting other people. Like, people should be free to believe whatever they want. And I still welcome. You know, for me, nothing has changed. To any fans out there that might be religious or in fact, you're probably

Alex Sermon [00:07:10] more accepting and loving. I feel like. Of people. And more sympathetic maybe to Mormon fans even.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:18] Absolutely. I just don't feel any different about them. And so for me, there's nothing coming but positive love and affirmation. There's no. I don't look down on anybody for that. So as far as I'm concerned, our relationship can stay the same. And so it's. Then it's up to them how they view me, which I can't control. You know, I know that I sort of have an atheist bent now in my life as far as, like, what I see as the world. I don't like the word because it has such a toxic connotation to it now. It's sort of like an icky thing.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] It divides people.

Wayne Sermon [00:07:50] Yeah. It's like. I think Washington posted a poll about this and they found that they asked people if someone was gay, if someone was Muslim, or if someone was atheist, who would you vote for to be a president? And both being gay and being Muslim scored higher than being an atheist. So that's kind of.

John Dehlin [00:08:11] And we know Americans don't generally always love Muslims and gay people.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] So they're not super popular.

Wayne Sermon [00:08:17] So it says something, I think. And so even though I have that kind of bent, I'm. I wouldn't call myself. I don't like that word. Maybe agnostic or something, because, you know, I think atheism is really misunderstood as people think it means that. I hate to be a cliche of what happens when you become warm. When a lot of people do become kind of this atheist, like, oh, I can't believe in anything then. But atheists don't claim that there is no God. They just claim that there's lack of evidence.

Life After Mormonism, Parenting, and Reflections

Wayne Sermon [00:08:45] And so. And I think atheism is also really misrepresented in that it's not a belief system. Like, it's not a way to live your life. It's not. People say it's either you're atheist or religious. They're not in any way the same. To me, it's like all atheism is. Is a negative. Like, you're saying something might not be true.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:05] It's like, is there a word for the Easter Bunny or for Santa Claus? Not that those things are, like, I'm making it trivial because those aren't the same. I know, like, divine creator is not the same as Easter Bunny, but, like, there's no word for those things. It's like, it's just. It's only such a small part of a person. It's like, there's this, like, view of that. That a person is like, this guy who wears black and is a nihilist and sees no real point in the world and has an earring, turtleneck, and tattoos like, I'm an atheist man. And, you know, it's like, no, like, atheists look like.

Wayne Sermon [00:09:34] They look like me. And it's like, so, yeah, hopefully that statistic will change, turn around a little bit. Because no matter what, the fact of the matter is that the world is getting more and more secular with each generation. You can't lie to numbers. And that less and less people claim to have any one religious, like, backing that they would, at least when it comes to poll numbers. So this is happening whether we like it or not. So it's like, how do we guide this thing? And. And maybe that's what. We can talk about that later.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] But yeah, so what? So in. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but, like, when. This could be negative, potentially negative for, let's just say, sales, or it could hurt family members. And we started with an answer to this question, but I'm just gonna ask it one more time. Why do this interview when it could Maybe, Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:25] I mean, we asked the same question when Dan did. Love loud a lot of. Even on a bigger scale, that was. That could blow up in our faces.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] Yeah. At the time. You did. We didn't. You didn't know. Right. How it would go.

Wayne Sermon [00:10:37] Oh, absolutely not. And so, you know, Dan was really pass. Passionate about this and said, I want to do this festival. Will you guys play it? It's like, okay. In the heart of Utah, you want to have a festival in Utah County? Utah county, saying that the church. Church's position is misguided, which then apparently means that the prophets might not, you know, have all the answers. Like, you know, it's. It's a rabbit hole to go down to do that thing. So the same thing was said of that. But it's like, at some point, you got to stop apologizing for what you believe and just stand up to it. And then do you do that despite any personal consequences?

John Dehlin [00:11:12] So that's it. It's just like, do what is right. Let the consequence follow. Is that what you're. Is that basically what you're saying?

Alex Sermon [00:11:20] I mean, also, I. Yeah, I just think that if people who are actually listening, maybe if you see a headline, maybe it's offensive, but I mean, hopefully when you hear him, you can hear how genuine it is and that, I don't know, it's just really do have just love for people in different cultures and especially for Mormons. And I. I just don't really see us putting out negative energy. I hope. I hope that it's not coming across that way, because that's not how we feel about it at all, especially to the individual people who are in it.

Wayne Sermon [00:11:58] Yeah. And at some point you have a platform and you have to decide what you're going to do with it. You can do nothing with it. You're gonna be silent. Are you gonna be that kind of person? Are you gonna go your whole life just being quiet and letting other people do the dirty work for you and quiet, you know, lurking on Reddit or, you know, listening to podcasts, but, like, never throwing in your two cents. And I just, you know, that's just not how we want to live. We want to be brave.

John Dehlin [00:12:20] What. What good would you hope would. Because. Because a family member could say, look, go through your faith crisis, leave the church, but just be quiet about it. You. You want to do good? What good would you hope. What would be the ideal outcome of good that could come from telling your truth, from telling this story? What good do you hope comes from it?

Wayne Sermon [00:12:41] I don't really know the full potential of this yet, to be honest. I. I feel like there's got to be something that we can do and, you know, you're doing it too, but there's gotta be an answer besides just staying stay in Mormonism. Because it's a. It's. It's broken, but it's the best thing we got. There's got to be a place for people like me who are so made that they cannot believe.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:02] And there are so many positive aspects of Mormonism. You know, we can go on, on and on about it. The sense of community you get from Mormonism, the, you know, it's been proven that, like, it's like a placebo effect. Religion does make people happier. It's, you know, just like when you take a pill before or after surgery, even if, even if, you know it's a placebo. This is a National Geographic article I read. Even if you know it's a placebo, it still helps you recover faster. And religion has, I think, is. It's like spirituality and faith and having faith that you're going to be healed, that kind of stuff. Like, I think that's a really good argument.

Alex Sermon [00:13:42] Live longer.

Wayne Sermon [00:13:43] Yeah. There's good arguments for religion, and I don't know whether the good outweighs the bad, to be honest. I don't know if the things that are in religion are uniquely good to only religion. I think there's gotta be some secular humanist approach to where to go forward with all this stuff without. That's much bigger than Mormonism because I gotta tell you, the world is a much bigger place than just this thing. And I've seen that firsthand, that, you know, it's like, what.01% of the world's population is. Is in this thing. And so there's got to be some sort of secular response that's bigger than just any one religion that some movement I'd love to be a part of, but I don't really know what and how that would look like, you know, all that.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] And that's kind of what thrive is trying to figure out is like, what's next, right? It's not obsessing about polyandry or ph, algae or hieroglyphics. It's like, let's be positive. Let's focus on healing and growth and what can we build towards?

Wayne Sermon [00:14:42] Right?

John Dehlin [00:14:42] If for those of us who can't stay orthodox Mormons, then what? What can we build? That's part of it.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:49] Yeah, definitely. Very fair.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] And then there's also just like, for those suffering in silence, like, you don't have a part of it, go ahead and talk about that.

Wayne Sermon [00:14:58] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:14:58] I mean, just the sheer fact of how much Mormon stories have helped us. It's like you want to keep the ball rolling. You want to keep telling your. You know, because each individual has a different experience, and maybe just one thing that they say reaches you. And I remember certain things that just one person said on a podcast. And if we're able to help anyone with even 2% of this, then we've done our job. And, you know, you're not alone. And even though we had each other, we felt alone in the grand scheme of things for a little while. And, you know, that's not where you should be.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:39] Yeah. Along those lines, any. As far as advice, if there is anyone listening, that's like, going through this now because I know people in my personal life, I don't need. I don't want to out, but I know that there's people out there that are going through this. Right, like, in the heart of it, like, finding out this stuff right now or maybe listening to me is made them want to look at stuff.

Wayne Sermon [00:15:57] Just take it slow. And some things simply take time. Uh, it's like a bad breakup. It's like some things are only healed by just taking your time and going slowly. And I promise you that life isn't just going to suddenly get worse for looking into stuff. Uh, it's going to have his ups and downs. It's not going to be perfect, and there's going to be a lot of. Of heartache when it comes to, like, relationship. I know all that stuff. But.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:25] And look, you know, even us, it's like trials and hardships do still happen when you leave. It's not like. And you have to find other ways to deal with it. Like, our youngest daughter, Sunny, that was. I kind. I think that was the biggest, you know, worry or trial or, you know, episode of our lives that we've had thus far as a couple.

Wayne Sermon [00:16:46] So Sunny was 8 months old in Alex's belly, and we were living in Vegas at the time and about ready to kind of do that final stretch into, you know, another month, and there was going to be a baby on the way. Everything was looking good and normal. Baby was measuring a little small. Other than that, it was fine. We went into the last sonogram before she gave birth, and the doctor was like, well, that's a kind of a small baby, but everything looks okay. You know, if you felt like you wanted to, you know, do another Sonogram, you know, you're welcome to, but I think everything's okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:22] And you know, but if that's something you want to do, we can set you up with someone else to look. Take a look. She's just a little small, but she's fine. And we just thought, I think we need to. When you, when someone tells you that,

Alex Sermon [00:17:34] let's get a second opinion.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:35] Let's get a second opinion. So we went and to like a more specialized doctor to a high risk pregnancy center, and awesome sonogram technician found that she had a heart defect that is pretty hard to catch and kind

Alex Sermon [00:17:48] of unrelated to her size. So it was pretty random that we basically.

Wayne Sermon [00:17:51] The valves in her heart were switched. The one that's supposed to be going to her lungs was going to the rest of her body and the one that's supposed to her body is going to her lungs. And it's just. That just wasn't going to work. And so a lot of times these babies are birthed just fine because there's a little valve in the heart that will. Opening of a passage opens for a few days and then it closes only after a few days. And that's when you. It's like blue baby. Like that's where this gut comes from, is you'll just go home with the baby and, and not be able to do anything at that point because the doctors didn't see it.

Wayne Sermon [00:18:23] And this, this valve slowly closes and then you're left with the blood going to the wrong places. And so we were really lucky to catch it and just, you know, it was still a really big uphill climb and we, we were really unsure if she would make it and we had to finally do a C section. And the day came to have her and they just whisked her right away and we barely even got to see her. And it was just NICU for a long time after open heart surgery.

Alex Sermon [00:18:57] Yeah, so it's, you know, you go through things like this and I, you know, I, I will. I don't know. It's hard to talk about.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:08] Yes, sir. Sorry. This is, this is like a very tender thing for us, but still new.

Alex Sermon [00:19:14] She's only 11 months.

Wayne Sermon [00:19:15] Yeah, wasn't that long ago. And so it's, you know, religion in those, in those instances, religion can be really helpful. And you know, it's like you say prayers and, you know, you give blessings and like you have this like this kind of blanket that you can kind of wrap yourself around and like feel better about stuff.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] And, and even if the baby passes

Wayne Sermon [00:19:34] it's like, well, yeah, see the next life. Exactly. And so to have that, that was an interesting experience. To have that sort of not have that. That safety rope anymore. And just like, okay, what was that like?

John Dehlin [00:19:45] To not have the safety net? You know,

Wayne Sermon [00:19:52] Let me take it. Yeah, okay. So for us, I think it's also in how you look at it. So basically, you can look at it two ways. There is a loving heavenly father that's seeing you go through this and is going to ultimately decide whether that baby lives or dies, or you can view it as, wow, what an amazing thing that this was caught. Thank God for the thousands of years of human progress that. And how many babies have died of this and how many babies had to die in order that this kind of surgery can even be done. And thank God for these doctors that have trained their whole lives to do this kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] Thank God.

Wayne Sermon [00:20:37] Yeah, right, exactly. And I, you know, look, and I did say I'm not. I won't be too proud to say it. Said some prayers, just do whoever was there. So, you know, it's not like I'm. Humans are complex people, and in times of stress, this kind of stuff happens. But ultimately, you know, it was about putting our trust in people. There was human beings, from nurses to doctors that dedicated their life to doing this stuff. And perhaps instead of putting all thanks to God when these things go right, maybe we should be thanking all the people that came before us that lived, by comparison, pretty terrible lives in order for us to have the opportunity to have our baby make it when there was no chance in any other time in history that this was possible.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:28] So put a little bit less on God, a little bit more on the people that are actually actively doing the surgery and being grateful for them and just still being in awe, still having room for the luminous and the.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:41] And the transcendent. You know, just because I'm not necessarily sorry about the God quit. I'm not sure about the God question doesn't mean that I. I lack the ability to be awe inspired by something. And to.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] Life can still be a miracle.

Wayne Sermon [00:21:56] Life is still a miracle. And maybe even more so when you take God out of the equation. You know, the fact that we're here on the spinning rock in an unknown part of the stardust made out of stardust. Indeed. So I don't know, it was just sort of, you know, it's also like, you know, if this baby goes and it just wasn't meant to be. It wasn't. That just wasn't, you know, it was Always going to happen that way. And you have to look at things a little differently. But I don't know if it necessarily helps to say God saw it happen and chose to take that baby. I don't know. I don't know personally how much that would help me rather than saying, you know, it was just a thing that happens. We are human.

Alex Sermon [00:22:33] We.

Wayne Sermon [00:22:33] We evolve slowly over time and we are an evolution in progress. And humans are not perfect. Sometimes they're born imperfect. And it's just part of what it means to be human, to be alive. So it was a lot. I don't know how much different it would have been for us, having faith or not. It's a difficult thing and people navigate all kinds of ways.

Alex Sermon [00:22:54] Right. I felt like the whole process was sort of fight or flight. And I don't. If I were religious, I don't know if that would have changed my reactions. I don't think. I don't. I don't know if I would have felt better if we lost the baby, thinking I would see her after. I don't know, because it's just I'm a person who. I wanted that baby here and I. And we do have that baby here. And she's amazing and we're grateful every day for it. But.

Alex Sermon [00:23:25] Yeah, I. I just felt like. I don't know, selfishly, I didn't want to think of big picture that way. Whether we had religion or not. I just. I wanted things to work here and now. And I was grateful for the people who put in the time.

Alex Sermon [00:23:42] Not praying, but instead going to school to learn how to do this and to fix our daughter. And they did, and they were amazing. And she's here and she's perfect, so.

Wayne Sermon [00:23:52] Amen.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Thank you. Thanks for sharing. That's a great illustration. Yeah. So the couple. Couple things about kind of looking forward. Right. So let's go back to the band for a second. 3. Three really successful albums. 4. Sorry, wait a minute. Which one did I miss?

Wayne Sermon [00:24:18] After Evolve, we had another one.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] What was that?

Wayne Sermon [00:24:20] Threw another one out there. It's called Origins.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] Yeah. Which. So Believer was on what?

Wayne Sermon [00:24:26] Evolve.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Evolve.

Alex Sermon [00:24:28] And then they dropped a second one, but have not toured on it.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:30] Yes.

Alex Sermon [00:24:31] And I'm still upset about it.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] Okay.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] So four albums all. I mean, you guys were the most streamed band on Spotify last year, 2018, is that right? Something like that.

Wayne Sermon [00:24:42] I think something like that.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] So a world phenomenon sensation. Right. How's like, what are you able or wanting to say about like where the band is now and. And where it might Go like you want a break? Are you guys kind of taking a break?

Wayne Sermon [00:24:58] We are taking a break, yeah. We. As you can tell, I can't. I'm terrible with dates. I feel like my, like the last 10 years of my life, it's just been a blur. It's been a complete blur. And so it's been so nice to just slow down and like take it a day at a time and to be a person again that's not just part of 25 of something bigger than any one of us and just be an individual. I think all the guys feel the same way. So the break has been incredible. And you're enjoying it? Very much so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Being home.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:28] Yeah. Yeah. But you know, obviously music is still a passion of ours and we're gonna keep playing and still writes music.

Alex Sermon [00:25:34] Like a full time job.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Oh, really?

Wayne Sermon [00:25:37] Oh yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] You're making songs all the time. Yeah, we're, we're writing with Dan.

Wayne Sermon [00:25:42] Like with some. Some.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] Yeah. Some. By yourself?

Wayne Sermon [00:25:44] Yeah. The wheels are still turning.

Alex Sermon [00:25:47] Always turning.

John Dehlin [00:25:49] Yeah. Yeah. There's always like for any. I mean there's always the Rolling stones and you two and the Beatles, but they're like not just 99th percentile, they're 99.99%. Right. But then like there's always this, there's generally this life cycle of the band. Very, very few ever make what you guys have already accomplished. And then there's like trying to sustain it.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] And that it just seems like. And I remember talking to Tyler Glenn about this. Like one of the hardest things it seems like it would be to be a musician is you can't control what people like.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] You, you, you write because you love the music. You put it out there because it's the best you have to offer. People either like it or they don't. Usually they don't love it, but occasionally you strike gold or lightning or whatever. But then to like always have to stay on top and stay popular. Plus I think there's just a natural tendency for people's to want new things. And then there's also like, I don't want to. I don't want to like the band that my parents liked or that's. That band was big three years ago.

Wayne Sermon [00:26:56] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] So like at some point it's like you reach this high and then you try and maintain it, but then has to be exhausting and at some point impossible to maintain the momentum. So then you're facing at some point a decline. Now you guys may still have five more awesome albums, but at some Point. Everyone's got to face that reality. Unless you're like Sting.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] You know what I mean? So like, anything you want to say about that? Or is that just like we're.

Alex Sermon [00:27:25] Well, that was depressing.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] No, maybe. Or you. Or you become bigger than the Beatles. Like, we don't know. We don't know. But I mean, is that a reality? Am I describing something that's true or.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:39] I mean, yeah, who knows? I. I have the worst perspective on this stuff, you know, or the best,

John Dehlin [00:27:46] which is you just do it because you love it.

Wayne Sermon [00:27:48] I do it because I love it. And you know, we, we. You're right. There's. There's so much we can't control people's taste. There's. Eventually the band will end and like all good things do. And I think if your identity has been the band, if you're. If that's what you see yourself as, is just as this big thing, then I think that maybe that could be troubling. But as you know, I'm also just an individual who will be making music regardless how people listen to it. And that's. Maybe that's been part of the success too, is that we're constantly doing this. Like, I know that, you know, we're not alone in this, but I know that Dan writes feverishly. I've never seen anyone write half as many songs as him. His work ethics, insane. And my. I. I'm always writing tracks and we're always sending stuff back and forth.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] So you're just doing what you love,

Wayne Sermon [00:28:42] you are just doing even on breaks. So as much as it's true that we cannot control what we can control, we do. And that's by working really hard. And I don't know, just. I think if you take breaks and stop doing stump something for long enough, you kind of get rusty at it. So for 10 years we've never stopped. Even when we're on breaks. We just. We try and favor those odds as much as we can and try and create luck as much as we can. And the rest is really. Is out of our control. But it'll last as long as it lasts. And at any point I can say it's been an incredible ride and what a unique honor to be able to play for people on stage and have that be something people pay you for.

Wayne Sermon [00:29:26] If I really ever stop to think about it, that's a really humbling thing. 12 year old me would be beyond words and would be blown away by how things worked out in my life. So ultimately I'm a really happy Guy and extremely lucky.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] Anything you want to add to that part, Alex?

Alex Sermon [00:29:49] Yeah, I. You know, I think. I think how he explained it is that, you know, he's really secure. I mean, I guess it's our life. It changes my life as well, and the kid's life as well. But Daniel's really secure in himself as an individual of this four piece. And so, yes, maybe to the outside world, that big chapter ends. But I. I think there's just so much more to come. And to think that, I mean, I'm one of those optimists that just. I look forward to, you know, what life has to bring at every stage. And it's going to be different. It's going to be challenging, but our kids are going to be growing, they're going to be going through different stages, and we get to experience that as a family. And we're so lucky to be able to do that. And I think it'll be great either way.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Beautiful. Is there a sense that there's more you guys want to do, or.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:47] I mean, in what way?

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Anyway? Just like, there's more we gotta achieve.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:54] Oh, I see.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] And territory unconquered.

Wayne Sermon [00:30:57] Like, there's always that. It doesn't matter, you know, it doesn't matter how successful you are. There's always. You're always looking to the next thing. We've all, like, we. We honestly barely even celebrated a Grammy. Like, I don't. I think we just said good job or something and that was on to the next thing. That was. Our celebration is like, cool, we got it. Great job, guys. And then literally that. Not even the dinner, it's just like, what's the next thing?

Wayne Sermon [00:31:21] What else can we do? It's just, you know, we're kind of ravenous and unfulfilled in a, you know, in a good way. In a twisted way, maybe in a good way, too. But just, you know, there's always something that we could be doing better and our show could be better in this way or that way, and our songs could be better this way.

Wayne Sermon [00:31:38] It's just how we see things. And I think it's part of my personality as well. Like, as far as in my faith. Like, I fancy myself a bit. Like, I really. When I was lds, I really got into the doctrine and I really studied it and I really tried to have knowledge, what I thought was, like, true knowledge. And, you know, from reading all the books you're supposed to read and just trying to be able to hold a conversation with anybody about. A conversation with anybody about Mormonism, be Able to hold my own and feel really confident in it, in the history of it. And I feel like since my scope is sort of widened and I know this isn't true of everyone because some of the smartest people I know are Mormon and the most knowledge hungry people I know.

Wayne Sermon [00:32:26] But for me, Mormonism acted as a bit of a blanket. Like, where it's just like the next. Like Alex was saying, it's like we're about the next life. This knowledge. Yeah, it doesn't make sense, but we'll figure out the next life. And now my outlook is very much more.

Wayne Sermon [00:32:43] This is the life to figure it out. This one. This is the only life that's guaranteed. I'm not saying there's no afterlife. I'm only saying that you have no evidence for it. And I better make this life count because as far as I know, this is what I've got. So I don't know, I feel like now that whenever I encounter anything that tries to answer everything, it always seems to answer nothing.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:08] And so I'm learning more and more that I know less and less by things. And so like I said, like, my circle is kind of influenced. My circle of influence has changed, like who I'm reading now. And like, I do find myself in the same thing of. And like, I just thought about this yesterday. Like, I'm still in the same thing of trying to figure out where I came from and where I'm going. So like in my quest, like, what I've gravitated toward is like evolution, you know, evolutionary biology, like getting super fascinated with that, you know, Richard Dawkins, the wine, Brett Weinstein, like, you know, really like figuring out like, you know, the Yuval Harari book, Sapiens, you probably know. Yeah, just like really finding, trying to

John Dehlin [00:33:53] find out, like, homo deus.

Wayne Sermon [00:33:55] Homo deus and sapiens. And just like, what are we? How do we get here? Like, as far as we can tell what's happening. And then like, also I've been super into Sean Carroll, Lawrence Krauss, astrophysicists of like, you know, the big picture stuff. And like, I'm obviously an idiot and I don't understand half the stuff I read in Sean Carroll's books about quantum physics. Like quantum mechanics, quantum physics. But I just find it to be so much more gratifying and so much more rewarding of a way to live my life because all these men, what they have in common is that none of them pretend to know all the answers.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:37] And they're all, they all depend on the scientific method to Find out where they're going with next, you know, so, you know, I'm not gonna have all the answers. And when I die, I won't have all the answers.

Wayne Sermon [00:34:48] But that I've learned to be okay with that. And that's one thing that's different, Mormonism, is that the unknown is a little bit scary. And I. And stepping out of that can be daunting for people. But honestly, it's gotten to the point now where I'm glad that none of it's true. And I. I'm happier now than I've ever been outside of Mormonism. And there is a path that leads to happiness that isn't a religious one. And. Yeah. So I don't know, what's that like?

John Dehlin [00:35:17] What's like for you, Alex? Like you. You. You lived so many years. Decades even. Someday it'll make sense. Someday I'll get that feeling, you know, and then all of a sudden you realized I was holding out because it wasn't going to come. So now you're where you are. How's that?

Alex Sermon [00:35:34] Yeah, I. I mean, I.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] Are you feeling peace?

Alex Sermon [00:35:36] I am. I'm feeling a lot of peace. I'm feeling relief. I'm feeling confident in my own thoughts and in my own judgments of things. And I, you know, I. I feel like I don't need to second guess my opinions to make sure they align with someone else's. And I, I just feel good with living each day and enjoying that day and trying to stay in the moment rather than what's going to happen in the far future that I can't control. And, yeah, I feel like we're feeling pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:36:14] So have you thought about, like, constructing another theology or trying other churches? Like, it's. Any sense of spirituality, has any of that been a longing or a need for you?

Alex Sermon [00:36:29] No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I think I've kind of. I'm at the place where I just. I think trying things out, not in terms of religion, but just in terms of what spiritually grounds me, whether that's going for a late night walk under the moon and talking about, you know, what we're researching, what we're listening to, what we're reading, whether that's spending time with our kids or a beach weekend together or going on a hike and just finding what kind of brings me back to what's important. And just this kind of revolving around our family as of now.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] I love it. And then kind of the two big fears that people have, contemplating leaving the church or seeing others leave the church Is why. And how would I ever be moral? Why would I ever be faithful to my spouse? Why would I ever stay married? Why would I ever not become a prostitute or a drug addict or even. Why would I even want to live Right. If. If the church isn't true. That's one. So can you have meaning and morals in life without the church? So how have you found that? And then there's how in the world can you raise healthy, happy, moral kids?

Alex Sermon [00:37:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] Without the church. How have. When you first. And then Alex, like, how have you come down on personal morals and meaning and then raising kids?

Wayne Sermon [00:37:59] Yeah. Thought about this a lot too. So basically the argument is God is the absolute truth. God. God is the compass for morality. And if that's off the table, then it's all off the table and we're all left to our own devices to come up with our own morality. And that's scary because look what can happen, you know, Maoism and Stalinism, Nazism. Look, all these so called atheistic machines. And look how. Look how off course we can get when we rely only on reason and stuff. But I mean, so that one way I like to describe it is my favorite book of all time is Crime and Punishment. Have you read it?

John Dehlin [00:38:39] Dostoevsky? Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:38:40] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:40] It's that, right? Mm, it is. I think it's probably the best book ever written. The book you told me to read, by the way, was amazing too. My name is Asher Lev. That is.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Did you read it?

Wayne Sermon [00:38:50] That is required reading as far as I'm concerned.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] I'm glad you liked it.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:54] I had no idea. Time.

John Dehlin [00:38:54] Potok.

Wayne Sermon [00:38:55] Yeah, yeah, but so basically in this book there's this main character, Raskinolikov. Crap. How do you say it? Something like that. I butchered it. Raskinolikov or something. But I've never actually said it out loud. I've only read it. Right. But essentially he is a poor law student growing up in Russia and he lives in the city. And in the city there is a pawnbroker who is just a hag by any standards. A complete scourge on society. Complete negative.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:30] Yeah. Drain on society. She takes advantage of people in her pawn shop. She doesn't get, you know, she's. She has no meaningful, meaningful relations with anybody. She's nasty, she's mean. By all accounts, it would be better if she wasn't boring or it'd be better if she was killed.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:46] And so that's this poor law student who then kind of thinks, well, wait a minute, like if it really would be moral if I Killed this woman. Why don't I just do it? Like, I should just do it.

Wayne Sermon [00:39:59] If I'm not. If I. If I can take off the shackles of Judeo Christian morality and just think rationally here for a minute, then it makes sense. So he did it. So he actually went through with it. He got an axe and killed this woman and essentially created close to a perfect murder. You know, he essentially got away with it. And he would have gotten away with it, but there was like, you know, he had this sort of. Something happened to him inside from doing that. There was just like this thing deep inside that Christians would probably say is like this deeply, you know, held belief that's.

Wayne Sermon [00:40:35] That's. You can't do that kind of thing because there's a moral law higher than just man's law. Right? And so he's filled with this torment. He goes into the fever pitches and he essentially just like, confesses at the end of it because he just can't take it anymore. And he goes into Siberia to prison, and he has this sort of rebirth. And it's like, this is kind of like what. What people like to use to argue against atheism is that this is what. This is what. It goes off the rails really quick this way. And so I definitely refute that for a lot of reasons.

Wayne Sermon [00:41:10] I think that there's something deep inside people that makes you not want to kill each other. And I don't. I think it far outdates any biblical precepts. I don't think we as a species would have gotten as far as we did unless we had something inside us has said to get along and to not kill each other. Right. It just makes sense. We didn't get all the way to Mount Sinai and then say, oh, wow, we shouldn't kill each other. This is amazing. Like, how did we get that far? And by the way, there's no evidence that Mount Sinai even existed in the first place.

Wayne Sermon [00:41:44] But that's besides the point. So I think that you can't just throw over the whole game of Monopoly by saying, you know, if there is. If God is an ultimate morality, then there is no ultimate morality. And it's all chaos. They just want to flip over the board and say, no one can play this game. No one can play this game of morality. And I think that's completely wrong. I think that if you look at people and what they do with the Bible. I mean, look at, you know, the Bible. It's like, how many genocides are committed in the Bible? You know, it condones essentially Sex slavery in the Bible, the treatment of homosexuals in the Bible, really immoral things happen.

Wayne Sermon [00:42:24] I think the whole sacrifice of Isaac is completely immoral. But we, you know, if an angel told me to sacrifice one of my kids, I tell him to go, you know what? Yeah. And so human beings by nature choose morality. They choose which parts of the Bible to ignore or to accept. Book of Mormon is the same way. I think there's some immorality, immoral teachings in the Book of Mormon. Like sort of layman. Yeah. Sort of Lan Nephi and black people having the mark of Cain or. You know what I mean? And I think we were speaking about Korhor earlier. I think the whole.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:01] I, I reread CORE just recently and I was really deeply disturbed by it

John Dehlin [00:43:06] because it's anti intellectual.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:08] It's basically someone's. It's basically core says, questioning and Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] Thinking.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:11] He's basically like saying he's questioning. He's being like basically Socrates in the situation saying like, you know, going counter to the narrative that was believed and basically duping people in the belief there was no God. And so what happened to Korhor? He was struck dumb and, and mute. He was struck mute. Right. And he couldn't speak. And he said basically, he wrote down basically, like, I was deceived by the devil. I, I didn't know what I was doing. I'm sorry, like, please unmute me. And I think it was Alma that was. Who was the. I don't remember, but basically said, no, I know your heart and I know that you would have just kept saying that crap and I'm gonna leave you mute. And then he ends up getting trampled

John Dehlin [00:43:56] to death as an ignominious death.

Wayne Sermon [00:43:58] Yeah. And it's just, it's like, man, how does, is this really, like. So I think most Mormons were really good people and they wouldn't do, they wouldn't pre Korhor that way. So my whole point is that it's a really big misnomer that we get our morality from scripture because each person has cherry picks their own parts of what something deep inside them that says that's not right, that slavery is not right, even though it says so in the Bible, that kind of stuff. So I think that whole argument is bunk.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] It's kind of a faith in the potential of humanity.

Wayne Sermon [00:44:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] Is that right?

Wayne Sermon [00:44:37] Yeah, I think, I think I'm not and I don't at all doubt that the, the utility, like, like you said of religion. I, I don't doubt at all. I think it's been with us for a reason and it stayed with us. You know, even in evolutionary terms, it stayed with us for a reason. Right? I mean, the tribes that institute religion multiplied and flourished. The ones, the ones that didn't died out, died out. And there's a reason for that. So the utility of it, I do not argue with it at all. And, but I also think that there is other signs of evolution that aren't so great.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:12] For instance, our love of sweets. One thing at one time was good, good for us. When we saw a date tree, it's like you go for it because, you know, get the calories, get the calories in. You don't know when the next day trees come in and get it while you can. So now we're all programmed to just love sweet things leading to heart disease and diabetes, literally killing us. So our evolution is killing us in that regard. So we're dying of our, you know, people used to die of their teeth, you know, the molars, our back molars are of no use. Our appendix is of no use anymore.

Wayne Sermon [00:45:43] People's propensity to believe in false positives. You know, essentially the, our ancestors that believed that there was a tiger in the grass when they heard a rustling in the wind, those were the ones that eventually survived and reproduced were the ones that thought, ah, it's just the wind.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:02] So the ones that I think the worst anthropomorphized their surroundings are actually the ones that ended up surviving. So there's no wonder we're a little bit skittish. No, no wonder we're prone to believe in things that are otherworldly or metaphysical because, I mean, it all makes sense if you to me now in the, in the grander scheme of things. I don't want to drone on and on about this stuff. I could, but anyway, it sounds like

John Dehlin [00:46:24] you're hoping that we can, there can be a positive what's next for those.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:28] Yeah, and I, I, and I, I don't want to come off as hating religion or saying it's like there's people like Christopher Hitchens, who I adore. He is my, he is my intellectual like Miles, like, he's who I want to be like intellectually.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] God rest his soul.

Wayne Sermon [00:46:43] God rest his soul. He is to me the epitome of what to be a well spoken anti theist. But I don't go as far as him. I'm not an anti theist. People like Richard Dawkins say religion is a meme that is a, it's a virus meme. It's like, you know, it has, it's, it has to be eradicated. And I think that's a really, that's the only thing that I think Christopher Hitchens got wrong among all the other stuff he got right. And by the way, anyone listening, go and check out a debate where especially he, he'll debate any Christian and completely wipe the floor with them. And it's so entertaining to watch. But I digress. But so, yeah, so what was I talking.

Alex Sermon [00:47:22] The one thing that Christopher Hitchens, maybe.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:24] Yeah, thank you. That's the one thing I think he kind of got wrong is that he does a disservice by saying that religion is this stupid thing that stupid people believe. And that's not what he was saying, but it's more like devil's advocate. Yeah, he was being a devil's advocate there. But I think that there's. By alienating those people, you're not really forwarding the conversation because religion has been with us for this long and there's no reason to believe it's not going to continue with us into the future. So just saying you all are stupid and we got to move past this.

Wayne Sermon [00:47:52] I see that. Even though I want to say that I see that that's very unhelpful in the big scheme. So in going forward, it's like I don't have all the answers, you know, and as far as the Mormon Church, I really don't envy their position right now. I don't wish I was the leaders in the church right now because I understand it's a really tricky thing that they're going through. I know that it's not just one big. They don't all see eye to eye on every single issue on this stuff. And it's like they're damned if they're doing. They're damned if they don't. Because if they go forward and say all this stuff and say, yeah, look, we're going to air all the laundry, this is exactly what happened.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:23] You're going to have a lot of members saying, wtf like, why was I not told about this stuff? And if you stay silent, then people in our generation, we're not having that we have access that we didn't have before. So I don't know the way forward. It's a lose lose for them. And so I'm not sitting here trying to attack them. It's like, because I believe that most. It's like I feel like the church itself has its own, is its own individual and every member of the church. No One, no, one person is controlling the narrative of the church. It's just this. Not a monster, but it's this thing that's bigger than just one person.

Wayne Sermon [00:48:56] And I would never blame one individual, one leadership, one leader in the church for saying leading. You know, it's just. It's so much bigger than that. And so I don't, I don't envy their position, but it's not, you know, I, I don't. I don't know. Right way forward for them. Because I, I mean, you. You have a better gauge of this than anyone that people our age. It's just, it's. It really is. A lot of people are leaving.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] It's a losing battle for the millennials.

Wayne Sermon [00:49:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Yeah. Alex, what about raising kids like you don't have the church as your social and let's just say, moral support. Are you worried about. They're still young, so.

Alex Sermon [00:49:35] Yeah, they're still young, so it's hard to say. I mean, I'm worried about everything for parenting, because I don't know what I'm doing.

Wayne Sermon [00:49:40] It's terrifying.

Alex Sermon [00:49:41] Yeah, it's the worst and the best. No, but same thing as Daniel said earlier. I felt like my parents are what made us moral people, more so than the church guided us. And we had a community of cousins that we loved and we had friends and we had activities. And so I think there's a place to find community elsewhere. I mean, I would. I'm still. I think we're still in search of another form of community that could be helpful to us, a more secular community. But, yeah, I mean, I'm worried in the same way all parents are worried about having moral, well behaved children. But I don't worry about it, especially

John Dehlin [00:50:26] because if you can just be good parents, that goes a long way.

Alex Sermon [00:50:29] And it's kind of refreshing to not feel like I need to teach someone something that I don't believe in. I'm only gonna teach them truths that I know, you know, I mean, as best I can, or at least I know for the time. And that might evolve and I might be wrong and I might say the wrong thing, but at least it'll be from me and not from something else. I'm regurgitating, hopefully.

Wayne Sermon [00:50:52] I mean, I'm open to stuff. I'm like, I don't know what next step should be, really. I mean, I Mormon. You know this. I mean, Mormons can be a skittish bunch after their faith crisis. It's like the whole point is that they don't want to be a part of Something. The whole point is that they were just in something that left maybe a bad taste in their mouth. So I think as a group, we're maybe a hard, hard bunch to wrangle together and all get to agree on anything. So I totally get that. But I can't help but think there's something that we can all agree on and there's some common ground that all anti, you know, the.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:32] All ex Mormons share. You know, it's like my dream personally. You know, we talk about Maoism and Stalinism and Hitler and all that stuff. I mean, I would love to be a part of society that actually embraced real humanists and real secularists, because none of those three people were that, you know.

Wayne Sermon [00:51:56] You know, show me a society that's embraced the teachings of Epicurus, Democritus, Galileo, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, David Hume, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins. Name me that civilization that has embraced those secular concepts and fell into ruin and chaos.

John Dehlin [00:52:15] Brene Brown.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:16] Absolutely right. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] Maya Angelou.

Alex Sermon [00:52:20] Exactly.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:21] So that's my dream is like, man, if we could, like, there's got to be some counter movement that still makes people feel a part of something because, you know, it's like, what do you do? Because it's like Mormons don't want to, like, go to sun, like something on Sunday again, That's. They just escape that. They don't want to, like, you know, give some money to an organization anymore. They just did that. Like.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:39] I don't know what the.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Or surrender their authority.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] Right. Moral or otherwise.

Alex Sermon [00:52:43] Right.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:44] So how do you wrangle a bunch of people that like that? I. I don't have the answer. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Yeah. Yeah, I don't either. But we're, you know, we're seeing where it goes. Right. Sometimes I want to create that Zion, that secular Zion.

Wayne Sermon [00:52:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] And then I just realize that's going to fail because it's too hard and nobody. Nobody's up for it.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:01] Right. And that.

John Dehlin [00:53:02] That's the. And that's. That's the thing about repeating the problem. Exactly.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:06] And that's what religion does so well. Like it. The very fact that it requires so much of you is what makes it so enticing.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:11] Like, if it. If Mormons didn't, like, make. Wasn't hard or didn't.

Alex Sermon [00:53:16] That was part of your identity. We were the kind of people who could do hard things and sacrifice.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:21] Yeah.

Alex Sermon [00:53:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] So. And they created something worth sacrificing for because the. Because the end goal was so big, the prize was so Big.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:29] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] Then you'd give everything for it.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:31] Yep, exactly. So minus that, what do you have?

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Yeah, yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:36] You know what I mean.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] So. Yeah, but some would, would slip into nihilism and say, well then there's no point in life. But you guys aren't doing that.

Wayne Sermon [00:53:41] No.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] You're not feeling like. Because you hear those well intended Mormons are like, I'm so glad we have the church because if we didn't, why would I even want to live?

Wayne Sermon [00:53:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] You don't feel that way.

Alex Sermon [00:53:51] Well, this is, this is all we know. So this is the only time we know we can live. I mean, maybe there's an afterlife. I'm not saying there isn't. But if this is all I've got, then this is what I want to enjoy.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] So it makes you even more interested,

Alex Sermon [00:54:04] way more excited about life.

Wayne Sermon [00:54:06] I think people might surprise themselves if, you know, if they find out some truths aren't true. I don't think they're going to just put their hands up and say I'm done.

Alex Sermon [00:54:13] Right. That doesn't really give themselves a lot of credit. I wouldn't, you know, or I would just be an alcoholic if I could have a drink of liquor. Which I, I kind of thought that about myself. But it's. You're not giving yourself much credit. Do you not have self control in other aspects of your life? Then why would this be any different? You know, I mean that, that's a whole nother argument. But you know, give yourself some credit that you're a better person than you know. Don't rest all your laurels on someone's religion. I don't know.

Wayne Sermon [00:54:43] Yeah. Amen, sister.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] So I instead of like waiting to the very end. And that's what I'll just say it again. A plug for Thrive. November 17th Wayne Sermon will be keynoting along with Amber Scora from leaving the witness. Me, Natasha, Christian Moore, Stephanie Sorensen Larsen, hopefully John Hamer, you know, maybe Donna Showalter. Like we have a lot of great. Spencer Nugent. Like we have a lot of great people lined up. Check out thrivebeyondmormonism.com 2015 Bucks for an entire day. We're losing money, but we just want to. I'm thinking of as a secular general conference. I love it. If we could get our best and brightest together. What 20 minute talks or in your case maybe 30 or an hour minute talk.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] What, what could we produce in terms of wisdom for. For our tribe? Yeah, we're not trying to put down anything. Right. We're not going to be negative. We're looking forward. What wisdom and encouragement and energy and community can we create? That's the idea.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:45] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:55:46] That's why I'm glad you're. Thank you for being willing to.

Wayne Sermon [00:55:48] 100%. That sounds right. That's right up my alley. And so thank you. Thank you for doing it because, you know, it's easy to talk about stuff like this, but this is a doing thing, you know, So I think we can create something cool and you know, it's not going to require every Sunday be taken away. You can still have your second Saturday. But to have some middle ground right where you can feel like you're a part of something, that's kind of what I'm looking for. I'm just looking forward to meeting people that have got like, we've only talked to, like even now we only, we only talked to like five or six people about.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] That's amazing.

Alex Sermon [00:56:18] Right?

Wayne Sermon [00:56:18] So more selfishly, when we go there, it's just like here's going to be, you know, some hundred people that know exactly what I'm talking about and that we can finally have this sense of community. I think that's really exciting.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] I love it. Alex, we'd love to have you if you can come.

Alex Sermon [00:56:32] Oh, I'm happy to be there. Excited.

Wayne Sermon [00:56:34] Yay. So.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] So that's thrivebeyondmormonism.com please register. We want to get 4,000 people there. We want it to be the largest assembly of forward looking, healthy, positive, you know, progressive and post Mormons ever. So please come, please support it. Please tell your friends. We want to fill the room, fill the salt palace. Any final. We've, we've shared a lot. You guys have lived up to all my, exceeded all my expectations, which are always high anyway. This is so beautiful. Any final things you didn't get to talk about or say that you want to share? Final wisdom for people. Either of you want to give you one last chance to, to kind of share. Did we, did we overturn all the stones?

Wayne Sermon [00:57:20] I think we did plenty. I'm sure people are sick of hearing my nasally voice for a time.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] Yeah. Final words of wisdom.

Alex Sermon [00:57:30] Yeah, I guess that, I mean, I guess it's cliche, but it's just if you are going through this, you're not alone. And it's okay to have questions and in fact, it's good to have questions. And I hope my kids grow up questioning things. I don't want them to be sheep and just because I tell them things and that's necessarily 100% the truth. I want them to think for themselves and my parents instilled that in me and I hope that all adults will continue to act that way and it's okay to question things and do research yourself and, and know that you're not strange or wrong for feeling that way.

Alex Sermon [00:58:16] And you know, if you want to reach out to me, I'm happy to talk to anyone. And yeah, I. There's. There's light at the end of the tunnel and it can be a really positive place. And anyone who's suffering, I hope that it ends soon and that you have a good support system with you.

John Dehlin [00:58:37] How would you want people to reach out to you if like Facebook, Instagram.

Alex Sermon [00:58:42] Yeah, maybe DM me on Instagram.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] Okay.

Alex Sermon [00:58:45] I'm really bad with social media or email or anything like that, but I'll try to keep an eye on those.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] Okay. And you go by Alex?

Alex Sermon [00:58:53] Yeah. I think I'm Alexandra. Dot. Sermon.

John Dehlin [00:58:56] Think so on Instagram. Alexander Sermon Instagram. Thank you, that's beautiful. Wayne, what do you. What do you want to.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:03] I don't have much to add to that. I feel like I've talked plenty and people are probably sick of.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] Is there anything on your outline you didn't cover?

Wayne Sermon [00:59:08] I mean, yes, but like you know enough already.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] You know, it's your shot, man.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:14] Okay, let's talk about biology somewhere. No, no, no, I'm good, I'm good. This has been long enough.

Alex Sermon [00:59:18] Let's save some for the talk.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:20] Yeah, I, I really appreciate anyone who was open minded enough to listen to this especially all how many the sun is going down. Did not expect it to go this long and. But I think we covered a lot.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] You don't know me at all. You don't know me at all.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:36] I didn't know I had have this much to say.

Alex Sermon [00:59:37] Yeah.

Wayne Sermon [00:59:38] But yeah, thanks for everyone that's listened and you are not alone. We love you. Doesn't matter if you are the most devout Mormon in the world. I do not care. Come, come out to thrive and let's hang and get to know each other and feel a sense of community that maybe we've lost. When you leave that fundamentalist view of your own religion and there's a place for you no matter where on the spectrum and we accept you for what you are. Me and my wife, you know, we have only. Only love in our hearts and only the strongest of positive intentions for being here. And adieu I suppose.

Alex Sermon [01:00:16] Avita. Same.

John Dehlin [01:00:18] Thank you. Alexandra. Alex. Thank you. Wayne. What an honor. I've been waiting for this moment for four or five years. It's been so lovely. You're both lovely. You inspire me and I've been, I've been few, I've been through a few of these. So thank you for that. Thank you for being willing to open up. Thanks for being so diplomatic and sensitive and, you know, respectful of everyone. That's just such a great role model. I want that. We need to build bridges, not burn them. Granted, you guys are approaching this in a way that I hope is going to build bridges. So thank you. Please, let's stay in touch. Thank you so much for listening. Huge thanks to Cody Layton who freaking drove here from Salt Lake to bring all the equipment and set up. He does great work for us and we couldn't do without him. So thanks, Cody. You're awesome.

Alex Sermon [01:01:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] And thanks to all our, our, you know, we, we've spent a lot of money to make this happen. Airfare, hotel, whatever, we, we try and be responsible. But thanks to all the donors, your donations make this possible. So for those of you who donate to Mormon Stories, thank you. If you don't, if you appreciate this programming, if you find value from it, please do, go to mormastories.org and click on the donate button at the top right.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] 10, you know, 25, 50, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. We're a non profit. We exist at the grace and at the generosity of our donors. We're transparent in our finances. We do all we can to be very responsible with the money, the widow's might. We consider it sacred. We're not perfect, but we work really hard to be.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] And if you will support us, we'll keep creating great stuff. And if not, someday all great things come to an end. This will too. But we're in this for as long as you guys are willing to support us. So thank you. Thanks to everyone who's made our billboard campaign successful. Rigby, you know, Idaho Falls, we've now got some billboards in Spanish Fork and Provo and we're grateful for our donors that have made that possible as well. Spread the word. Please email on social media, let people know about Mormon Stories episodes you like. Share this one all that stuff. Positive review on itunes. Positive review on Facebook.

John Dehlin [01:02:40] All that stuff really helps. So thanks to everyone who helps us. Please help us if you can and know that we're not going anywhere. So more episodes to come on Mormon Stories. We're just getting started and check us out@thrivebeyondmormonism.com if you want to come to the Thrive conference in November and just email us if you have ideas or questions or thoughts or suggestions. We always appreciate your feedback and your support and your encouragement, frankly. And if you know of a great story that needs to be told, we'd love to to interview them because, you know, 1100 hours isn't enough. We need at least 2000 hours on Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] So give us your best stories. Thanks, everybody. You guys take care. Thanks again so much. Hall sermons. You guys are awesome. Stay in touch.

Alex Sermon [01:03:27] All right, well done.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] The good work.

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