Introducing the Episode and Guests

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. I am joined by the amazing Jen Camp. Hey Jen, thanks for joining us. Hi everyone. You excited for today?

Jen Camp [00:00:12] Ah, yeah, very excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:14] Yeah. We have a really, really special episode planned and it's actually possibly a series of episodes and let's just jump right into it. Many of you will know that Netflix has been airing a series called Keep Pray and Obey, which is about Warren Jeffs and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is kind of an offshoot of the mainstream Salt Lake City based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And they're known for a lot of things, but mostly they're known for the modern day practice of polygamy, which at least in a legal, temporal way the Utah based LDS Church doesn't officially practice. And we've covered polygamy here on Mormon Stories podcast recently, several episodes with Sandra Tanner. And in the show notes, we'll have other past episodes where we've been covering polygamy on Mormon Stories. But this Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey is an amazing four part documentary. It's basically four parts, four hours and it's heart wrenching and I personally am experiencing Mormon documentary fatigue. There's been the under the Banner of Heaven on Hulu, which I have not seen yet, frankly, because I haven't had time and because it's such a depressing, saddening, sickening topic for me, I just haven't had the time or the stomach to watch it. But so many people are watching that. What I've been focusing on prior to Keep Sweet is the Teal Swan deep end documentary that's on Hulu and that's about this new age guru, Teal Swan, who grew up in Utah and who is heavily influenced by Mormonism. And now she's got a following of millions of followers and what we believe are some really dangerous practices and teachings. And now, you know, we're also watching Keep Sweet and it's, you know, Margi said, hey John, when you start the episode tonight, can you please just tell your viewers and listeners to practice self care, that these documentaries can be so traumatizing, so emotionally heart wrenching and triggering that you need to just invite people to take care of themselves, pace themselves. Jen, you're nodding your head.

Jen Camp [00:02:31] Yeah, yeah, there's some, there's some. Particularly for me, it was this one, Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey, that even some images that came on to the TV like almost had me like sick to my stomach. So it's A, It's a tough one. So I would, I would definitely do what Margi says.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Yeah, yeah. So pace yourselves. Practice self care. Margi booked me for a massage on Saturday. That's how worried she is about me.

Jen Camp [00:03:03] Oh, Margi's the best.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] And that's not normal. I don't normally do massages, but Margi's like, you need a massage anyway. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. But we're going to kind of have our own angle because there are probably lots of YouTube channels or podcasts that are talking about keepsuite. And so we, we thought about what's something that we can do that might be different or might be interesting and kind of a Mormon stories angle and what we decided we wanted to do for at least this part. And we may have multiple parts where we talk about keep sweet because I think it's, it's meaty enough to warrant multiple episodes. We want to talk about how awful Warren Jeffs was as a human and as a prophet and is. But we also want to answer the question, to what extent was Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism and technically the founder of the FLDS Church, to what extent was Joseph Smith like Warren Jeffs? Because if you think about mainstream Mormons and if you think about the way the LDS Church wants the rest of the world to think, the LDS Church leadership want mainstream Mormons to think that no two people could be more different than Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs to the LDS Church. It's like Jesus and Joseph Smith as the most righteous people who've ever lived. And then Warren Jeffs is one of the most evil, awful people on the earth. And so if you talk to your average Mormon, or frankly probably your average non Mormon, they don't really make a connection between Joseph Smith and this awful guy in federal prison named Warren Jeffs. And so for this first discussion or review of Keep Sweet, we're going to analyze that. We're going to analyze Warren Jeff's behavior and we're going to kind of contrast that. And so Jen and I are going to represent Mormons. I was 45 years, sixth generation, born and raised Mormon, served a mission, 45 years as an active Mormon, pretty much faithful. I, I mean, I had lots of doubts and eventually I lost a lot of faith. But I was a, I was a devout Mormon until Basically I was 45 with, you know, some small exceptions to that. Jen, how long were you faithful, active LDS?

Jen Camp [00:05:17] Until I was 43.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Yeah.

Jen Camp [00:05:20] Which was about a year and a half. Ago.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:05:22] Yeah.

Jen Camp [00:05:23] And yeah, active every week. Brought my kids up that way and was very devout.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] Yeah.

Jen Camp [00:05:31] Until one day.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] Yeah.

Jen Camp [00:05:33] But you'll hear, you'll hear my story later.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Yeah. And I know polygamy was a big part of that for you, so. So Jen and I are going to kind of represent the LDS church. And who's going to represent the FLDS church? Well, we're super excited to have with us today Sam and Melissa from the amazing YouTube sensation channel growing up in Polygamy)). Hey, Sam and Melissa, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:06:02] Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] Yeah, we're super thrilled to have you. We had you guys earlier this week to do a long form interview focusing on Sam's story growing up flds. But Melissa, we were able to get a good chunk of your story in there too. But you guys have more than 21,000 subscribers to your YouTube channel and you've only been around like two years, is that right?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:06:24] Yeah, like a little less than two years. Yeah, it's been crazy. It's been a whirlwind.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:06:28] Did not expect it to grow that fast.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] Yeah. So. And Joanne, I want to introduce you as well. But Sam and Melissa. Well, first of all, we want to tell our viewers and listeners that on Monday, just in a couple days we're going to be releasing like a six, seven hour interview with. With Sam and Melissa. And it's. I learned so much that I didn't even know.

Jen Camp [00:06:49] I did too.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:06:50] Even stuff.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] Even stuff that I didn't learn from this documentary. Yeah, I learned stuff I didn't know. Like, like, like FLDS kids put on garments when they were eight.

Jen Camp [00:07:00] When they're baptized.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] When they're baptized.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:07:01] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] They go to their wrists and ankles. I had no idea.

Jen Camp [00:07:06] Yeah, me either.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Yeah. So anyway, we learned so many cool things. Look for that as a following episode. But Sam and Melissa, if you guys had to like your story in literally like 60 seconds, what. How would you describe just kind of your story and who you are, knowing that we're going to be talking about that more in depth in. In the next episode.

Sam, Melissa, and Joanna Share Their Backgrounds

Joanna Fisher [00:07:25] Go ahead.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:07:26] Yeah, so I grew up in the FLDS community in Hildale, Colorado City, otherwise known as Short Creek. And I lived there until I was 18 years old. that point, I chose. I was not one of the ones that was kicked out. I chose to leave the community because I wanted a different life for myself. And. Yeah. So at that point, I mean, I don't know how much more you want.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] Yeah, give a little bit more. Give a Little bit more, Give a little bit more.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:07:51] Okay. Yes. Okay. So at that point I was introduced to the mainstream LDS Church in St. George, Utah. And I did go on to join the LDS Church after joining one year later. This is the very short version. One year later, I served a mission full time mission in Chile. And then it was after my mission that Melissa and I met.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:08:14] Yep. And I was raised lds. And Sam and I met and got married in the St. George Temple. And the first half of our marriage, we're just very super faithful and doing all the things LDS until we started our own faith journey together. And you'll find out how that ends, I guess, on Monday and really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] What's your channel just generally about?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:08:39] Yeah, so it's, I mean, the, the name. Growing up in polygamy. It's a lot about my experiences growing up in polygamy. We do tie some similarities because Melissa grew up LDS and I joined the LDS Church later on. So we do tie some of the similarities and differences between the two churches as well. But it's kind of sharing my experiences. And also we like to bring on guests as well that can share their experiences, like Joanna here. She was on our, we were lucky enough to have her on our channel and, and other people as well. That will come. And, and I think overall, our kind

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:09:13] of goal with it, other than to just share this unique lifestyle that they were raised and born into, is also to kind of share compassion and let people know that, you know, you can look at the flds, you can look at this Keep Sweet documentary or any other documentary, you can see that lifestyle and think that is crazy. I cannot believe that anybody could think like that, live like that. But when you hear the stories of Sam or Joanna and you hear their stories growing up, more and more people are realizing that they can relate and that there are similarities to, you know, mainstream Christianity or to the mainstream LDS Church and can realize that these aren't some strange, crazy people, that they were regular people that were doing the absolute best they can. And so I feel like building compassion for people who are in those communities and realizing that those people are good people just doing the best that they can and not the crazy fanatic that you see in Warren Jeffs.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay. Well, we're so honored to have you and we're so excited for the, the interview next week. Now you are joined by someone who I've never met before and I'm really excited. We wanted to make sure, kind of that a male representative of FLS church was available, but also Someone who had kind of the woman's perspective. Joanna, welcome to Mormon Stories. And can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Joanna Fisher [00:10:39] Yes, thank you. I'm Joanna Fisher. I'm 21. I got out of the FLDS when I was 17, so I was in for 17 years. And the underwear thing, believe it or not, later on we were required to wear that from probably five. Like, I grew up wearing it my whole life until I got out. And so the whole thing, like, through, I guess, the splits and people leaving and, you know, the United Order and the lifting up and the raid in Texas, like, I lived in Short Creek at the time, which is Colorado City in Arizona and hillbilly Utah, of course, but I grew up there and I went through all of that. I was 11 when they did the whole, like, United Order. Some people are members, some people are not. And just it got really crazy towards the end. And I think, like, Sam had left before that. Macy, how old were you?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:11:28] I just missed it. Yes, I missed some of it.

Joanna Fisher [00:11:30] I think I would have been like seven when you left. Yeah, something like that.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:11:33] So she's my cousin, by the way.

Joanna Fisher [00:11:35] Yes. And I got out and I just. I got out because I chose to. I want to choose the person I married. I wanted to take control of my life, and that is my reason for getting out.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] Did you. Did you leave after. You may have just said this. So did you leave after Warren was incarcerated?

Joanna Fisher [00:11:54] Yes, he would have been incarcerated. I think I would have been like five at the time. Five or six? Yeah.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:11:59] Oh, she was in for 12 more years of him being in prison. And she, she has a lot of the. The stories of when things really got crazy.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:12:09] A lot of the rules that Warren came up with in his. In his prison cell.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:12:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:13] Okay.

Joanna Fisher [00:12:14] And he would call in from prison, like, in the meetings right up until, like, through 8 and 9 and 10. He would call in for hours. We would have meeting till 8 o' clock at night sometimes because he would. He was able to call in that time and we would just listen to him talk from jail.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] Wow. Well, I can't. I can't wait. I can't wait to jump in and just hear, hear your perspective. So anything else you guys want to say or stipulate before we start? Are you guys ready to jump in?

Goals of the Conversation and Channel

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:12:42] Yeah, I mean, I would just say that. I mean, kind of like it's always been for our YouTube channel. Our goal never is to necessarily bash on other people's beliefs and ideas of what life should be like, but it's more to Open, open other people's eyes and help people understand better from a different perspective. You know, I mean, it's just, I mean, just telling the facts. There is a lot of similarities between Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith. And, and I can tell you a long list of that based on what we were told growing up. And they would ride Joanna, they would tell us, hey, Warren is just like Joseph Smith because of this, this, this and this. And we can get just so that everyone knows we're just here to share the facts.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:13:25] And that was actually what I was going to share as well, is that not only just sharing facts, but one of the reasons why we thought this was like an important discussion panel to have is some people may look at it as, oh, we're trying to draw these conclusions to make Joseph Smith look bad. But really Warren Jeffs constantly compared himself to Joseph Smith. And so the comparison really comes more from the atheldst side, but where they're constantly comparing. And we felt like it was important for people to realize that the things Warren was doing, how he justified it, was oftentimes through using the image and the precedent set by Joseph Smith.

Joanna Fisher [00:14:04] Yeah, and I think another thing to mention, like people that were there, we did not know why he was in jail. We were told that he was falsely accused. We had no Internet connection, we had no outside connection really. So for us, we didn't even know what was actually going on. So people watch these documentaries and they watch these things and. But for me, I didn't even know why he was in jail until months after I'd left. Because we believe, like we're taught, that he is God on earth to us, he is God's mouthpiece and so he is the prophet to us. Even like, even if he's in jail, he was falsely accused and it was the devil trying to put down God's work. That's what we were told.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:14:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Love it. Super helpful. Okay, so for those, I'm sure there's going to be a few people who listen to this and have not yet seen the documentary. And if they have, they won't even understand the difference between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So I'm going to ask one of you to do something almost impossible, which is to kind of summarize the schism and the history of the breakoff in like a minute just to give kind of that super high level overview. Does that mean, does that make sense?

The FLDS Split From Mainstream Mormonism

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:15:18] Yeah, the break off from the, the flds from the mainstream LDS Church. Right?

John Dehlin [00:15:23] Yeah. So I'll start. So once upon a time, Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church. In 1830, the church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that's what it eventually was known as. And. And then he died. And then the church moved west, eventually to Utah. And for a long time, the church kept practicing polygamy. There was. But the federal government started getting super mad and started fighting the church. And eventually it took the church about 15, 20 years to actually stop it. But around 1890, the church, the Utah Church, told the world it was going to stop practicing polygamy. And then for another 15 or 20 years, it practiced it secretly. But at some point, the FLDS church was born. So, tag team, one of you take it over from there?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:16:10] Yes.

Joanna Fisher [00:16:10] Was it not in Wilford Woodruff?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:16:13] Well, so Wilford Woodruff was the one that signed the manifesto which was stating, we will as a church, no longer practice polygamy. But at that time, the church did not stop practicing polygamy. They just kind of sent the people that were still practicing it a little bit southern to kind of hide them away in a place that was a little bit excluded so that people wouldn't necessarily notice that the church was still practicing polygamy. Because at that time that Wilford Woodruff signed the manifesto, he himself and several leaders of the church and other members already had several wives. So story has it that they just said, okay, for us to still have more than one wife, we will continue to practice polygamy, but we're not going to marry anyone else to more than one wife. And so the ones that practice polygamy, in a way, kind of hit it from the world. But as far as the church splitting off, at that point, that's not really when the FLDS church split off, believe it or not, it was actually two prophets later, I believe Joseph F. Smith that stood up and said, okay, we are done. We are not practicing polygamy anymore. We're putting a complete end to this. If we don't, the government will destroy us and we will not be able to continue on as a religion. And so he stood up at the pulpit and said, we are no longer going to do this. And at that point, that's when the FLDS said, okay, you know what? We were taught by Joseph Smith, by Brigham Young, by John Taylor, by Wilford Woodruff, that the only way to return to the celestial kingdom and live with God is to practice polygamy, or in other words, live the celestial. The celestial law of marriage. And so at that point, The FLDS was established, and my grandfather, actually, Charles sitting was a big part in helping the. The church kind of split off and the FLDS began at that point.

Joanna Fisher [00:18:13] Do you remember who all the prophets were down to?

John Dehlin [00:18:16] He does.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:18:17] I do, actually. Yes, I do. You're gonna put me on the spot here, aren't you?

Joanna Fisher [00:18:21] Okay.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:18:22] What are. What are cousins for? Right. So after. After. I'm sorry. So it went, I guess. I mean, the.

Joanna Fisher [00:18:31] Did we consider Wilfred Woodruff?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:18:33] Wilford Woodruff? No. Wilford Woodruff was no longer a proud guy because he signed the manifesto. So it was Joseph Smith, Brigham Young Taylor, and then it was John Woolley and then Lauren Woolley and then John Y. Barlow and then Roy Johnson and then Reelyn Jeffs and then Warren Jeffs.

Joanna Fisher [00:18:48] Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:18:50] You were testing me. Okay. I didn't know it was a test. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] And so just.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:18:54] Anyway, unless I've missed someone, I believe that's how it went.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] That's perfect.

Joanna Fisher [00:18:58] I don't think you did, but I'm not too well versed on that anymore, so.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] And just to get people up to speed, so. So Warren Jeff's. His dad. Ruling. Jeffs was a prophet before him. And as the film talks about, he got sick. Ruling. Warren got really close to ruling, so that when Ruling died, Warren was there, kind of poised to take over. So that's the brief history. And what the documentary really focuses on is kind of Warren's early life, his early, you know, getting close to ruling, ruling, dying. And then basically the majority of the documentary is. Is Warren Jeff's taking over for ruling and his rule from taking over from ruling to his imprisonment, basically. Correct.

The Netflix Documentary and Warren Jeffs' Rise

Joanna Fisher [00:19:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] Where he is right now.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:19:46] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] Okay, so we've got that brief history out of the way. You did great. A plus To Sam and Joanna for that amazing history. We want to welcome everyone in. In the comments, both on YouTube and Facebook. We're grateful for the live stream. We're also welcoming all the. To Sam and Melissa's YouTube channel. We. We love that channel. So. So salute to you guys. Do you guys call your. Your listeners or viewers, anything? Do you have a name for your viewers or listeners?

Joanna Fisher [00:20:16] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] No.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:20:17] No.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] Okay.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:20:18] Just amazing, wonderful people.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] That's. That's all we. That's okay.

Jen Camp [00:20:22] Comment section. There you go. You guys can start brainstorming.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:20:26] Have homework as well.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Yeah, they can name themselves.

Jen Camp [00:20:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Okay. Okay. So. So I'm going to list some things that I notice about Warren Jeffs. I'm going to invite Sam and Joanna to talk about it. And then and then we'll follow up each point by. By Jen, myself, and Melissa being able to talk a little bit about Joseph Smith. And of course, Sam and Joyni, you're welcome to join in as well. I'm hearing a tiny bit of an echo from you guys. Maybe if you turn your speakers down a tiny bit, there may not be quite of an echo, or you can make sure in your settings on Streamyard that your settings are set to echo cancellation. Make sure echo cancellation is turned on. Otherwise, try turning your speakers down a tiny bit. If that doesn't work, it doesn't work. Okay. All right, so I'm going to start. And the first thing that I kind of noticed was that Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith had some similarities in their early years. So there was infant trauma, first of all. And so I. I thought it was interesting that, that basically Warren was born prematurely. As I understand it, Joseph Smith's infant trauma was more with his leg and, and with his wounding, but also visionary parents. So obviously Warren's dad was prophet, whereas Joseph Smith's dad was kind of a visionary guy, kind of like Lehi in the Book of Mormon. And then also, you know, both were favored sons. So Warren was a favored son to Rulin, and. And you get the sense that Joe, Joseph, like Nephi, were kind of favored favored sons to Rulin. And the final thing was early reports of sexual impropriety for both. So let's just. That's kind of some of the things I noticed about Warren's early years. Sam and Joanna, what do you. What do you guys have to say about that?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:22:33] Yes, I agree. That did seem to be the case, that it seemed that Warren was always kind of the favorite. He was always by his father's side. He was always the one that. If somewhat always the one to talk for his father, I guess you could say. So it definitely seemed like he was his favorite. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] Okay.

Joanna Fisher [00:22:56] Yeah, I feel like that as well. And another thing is in. In the early stages of, like, you know, Warren kind of taking over, he was very charismatic. And a lot of people said that about Joseph Smith. He had a very charming, charismatic personality. And he was. He was. Was genuinely like a sweet guy at first. And that's what everybody thought. I. I think that that was something similar.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:23:18] Yes. Every time I met him in person and shook his hand, I thought he was the most wonderful person ever. I mean, obviously I was taught my entire life to look at him as this amazing person. You know, first the. The prophet's son that was doing these amazing things. And then and then secondly, the, the prophet of God. So for me, was it different for you? But for me, it. I, I thought that I was feeling this really strong, amazing spirit around him.

Joanna Fisher [00:23:45] So for me, I would have been very young when he went to jail.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:23:48] That's true.

Joanna Fisher [00:23:49] But we would listen to his teachings and he always had this very like, melodious voice. Now if I hear that, I get sick, believe it or not. But back then it was like, it was very calm and soothing. And they compared that to Joseph Smith a lot. Yeah, it was like they both, they both, both had a very, you know, smooth character or whatever. That was something that a lot of people said they had. And they were both supposedly, you know, God's mouthpiece on earth.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Right. We'll be getting.

Joanna Fisher [00:24:15] I hear that they both walked above the earth. Like, I've heard that a lot, weirdly enough.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] And we'll definitely, we'll definitely be getting to that. Let me ask you about his personality. So I, I listed this as a difference, but I'm curious what you all, you both feel about this. We didn't get to hear or see Joseph either. We don't know what his voice sounded like. We don't know what he looked like really, other than the paintings or photos or whatever, but none of us got to see video. But we probably get the sense that he was kind of handsome and charismatic and charming. But to us and Jen, I'm curious your view and Melissa, you can chime in as well. When we look at Warren Jeffs, do we see a handsome, charismatic, charming guy? I'll ask you first, Jen.

Jen Camp [00:25:02] Not for me, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] No,

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:25:06] Jen said it more nicely than Melissa.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] What would you say, Melissa?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:25:12] No, not at all. Like, when I see pictures, even as a young child, I think the first time I ever saw a picture of Warren, I was like, he looks like a creep. Like, yeah, no, definitely not handsome. Did not seem charismatic.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] So this is interesting because conditioning has to play a role because Sam and Joanna, you, you experienced him differently, Is that right?

Joanna Fisher [00:25:36] Yes, I would say that is right.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:25:38] Definitely. Yes. And it might, might be partly because I was older and, you know, had a little bit more experience with him as far as one on one and helping do the landscape in his yard and, you know, and things like that. But I don't know that I really, as a young boy growing up, I didn't really pay attention to how handsome he was or not handsome he was. But it was something that, to me, because of the way he spoke, I assumed that it was. He spoke in that weird tone because that was more Christ, like, and kind of how God would want him to talk. Right. And. And I think he also used that voice to manipulate people because it worked on me. I mean, it sure seemed like it was coming directly from God.

Joanna Fisher [00:26:23] Yeah. And I think another thing, too, is, like, when I looked at him, it wasn't. You know, I was a child. And it wasn't like he was handsome. It was more what he represented.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:26:31] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [00:26:31] That made him that way. So it was conditioning, I think.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:26:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] So it sounds like he can almost put anyone in that office, and they're going to appear powerful and spiritual by virtue of the power in the office that's given them.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:26:47] I agreed. And I will say one thing about his personality, something that was. Talked a little bit about Joseph Smith as well, is that he was a kind of a fun guy, a good sense of humor, good personality. And that's something that you'll often hear about Warren as well, that he. That he was a funny guy. He liked to crack jokes, and he supposedly had a good personality. I never personally witnessed or experienced that good personality, other than he always seemed very somber around me. But. But a lot of people talk about him having that kind of personality.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Okay. All right. Well, those are a few personality things. There was that. There was that creepy part early in the documentary where they talked about people going to Rulon and basically saying, hey, it looks like Warren's getting too close to his sisters. And there was sexual connotations there. Do you.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:27:45] Do you.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Do you have anything to say about that?

Joanna Fisher [00:27:48] Honestly, that one. It's a little different. It's like, I hear different stories and I hear different things. I personally never experienced anything like that. But like I said, I was very young, and I hear from his daughters and from, you know, his sisters that it was that way. And so I think, like, you can't really discredit that, but I personally do not have any evidence to back that up or any solid. Anything solid to back that up.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:28:17] And for me, I. It just kind of helps me realize when I think back on my childhood, I never once saw Warren in his own element, like in his home and what he acted like around his children, what he acted like around his wives, what he acted like around his sisters. And so it kind of helps me realize how little I knew about this guy. All I knew about him was what was being said over the pulpit about him and him personally talking over the pulpit about things we were supposed to do and not do.

Joanna Fisher [00:28:49] Yeah. Even his family didn't really socialize a lot with the Community. They were always kept a distance. They were kept in, if you've been on there in the big compound, like the houses behind the big wall. And he always moved them to different places in the United States and Texas. And so they never did really communicate with the community. So we never got an insight on his family personally.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:29:11] And because of their family kind of being separated from us, I always assumed that that just meant they were better than us and that's why they couldn't mingle with us folk that weren't quite so righteous.

Parallels Between Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [00:29:24] Fascinating. Okay, let's see. Yeah, of course, Jen and Melissa, you would be familiar with the Fanny Alger affair where Joseph Smith was caught in an adulterous affair, you know, in 1833, 1835, before the sealing power or the polygamy revelation had even been, you know, given yet. And there are other reports without Emma's knowledge, right? Yeah. And there are other reports as well, of. Of. Of possibly people kind of thinking that Joseph Smith was acting out sexually. Is that. Is that your understanding, Jen?

Jen Camp [00:30:06] Yeah, with Joseph Smith, yeah. Yeah. That was actually my shelf breaker, Ms. Fanny.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Okay.

Jen Camp [00:30:11] Fanny Alger. So I actually looked into her story into detail and in depth, following every footnote everywhere I could. So it was definitely, like, it was never taught to us. Like, I didn't even know about Joseph Smith's real polygamy while I was in the church, in the LDS Church. But as soon as finding out about the polygamy and then looking into it, he definitely started that right away.

Joanna Fisher [00:30:48] So, yeah, I think that's very interesting because for us, like, we were never taught about that incidents. We were taught that Joseph Smith took. Took wives when God directed him to, and he did God's will. Like, that was. That was it. He just did God's will.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:31:06] Did you guys ever hear the name Fanny Ogler?

Joanna Fisher [00:31:08] No, I never did. No, not until now.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] Oh, wow. So you. You didn't know about that? You didn't know about that either?

Joanna Fisher [00:31:16] I did not.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] Okay.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:31:18] And Jen and I are soul sisters.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] Really?

Jen Camp [00:31:23] Is that you, Melissa?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:31:25] Yeah. It's a good thing that you mentioned that because. Yeah, I dug deep, too. And when I found out the timeline, the timeline did me in because I had had, you know, a hard time with polygamy before, and when I heard about Fanny Alger, that was like, okay, that's really tough to swallow. But as. Just as John was talking about the timeline, when I was looking at the timeline and I was going into DNC and I'm reading like, okay, this revelation was given this time, this Timeline doesn't match up.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Yeah, I think DNC132 was revealed in 1843, like a full eight to ten years after Joseph Smith had his first. His second wife, you could say.

Jen Camp [00:32:07] Right. And it was, I mean, in apologetics are like, well, he had it earlier on, but he just didn't write it down until then. And they'll give all all sorts of tries to like, say Joseph already had it at the time. But when you, you know, you can go with that or you can use your agency and look further into the little details and you can debunk that pretty quickly by multiple accounts that, yes, he was doing something with Fanny in the barn, Emma found him, a big whole thing happened. It's very, very clear. I, I suggest you, whoever doesn't know that story to look it up for themselves and look into that.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] But it is interesting that all of us were, you know, information about Joseph Smith was kept from all of us.

Jen Camp [00:33:05] That's true.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:33:06] Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:33:07] Yeah. It seems like a lot of information is coming out these days as the, as there's, you know, a lot more put out there that sources directly from the church even. It seems like there's a lot more all of a sudden coming to light that we weren't aware of several years ago. I mean, that's the way I feel anyway.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:33:25] Yeah, absolutely. Like the gospel topic, essays on polygamy, when Sam and I were going through our journey and I read that on polygamy and I was like, I remember actually printing it out from the computer and underlining things and writing notes. And then when Sam came home from work, I was like, I read this, but I think that all of these reasons are bull crap. Read it, read my notes and tell me what you think. Because something doesn't add up here. And that timeline was definitely one of them.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] Well, it sounds like something we all share is that our churches kept information about Joseph Smith from us and that's important. Or our founders. In your case, Sam and Joanna, it would be Joseph Smith in some cases. And Warren. So that's interesting.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:34:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] Okay, so the next parallel that I wanted to talk about was of course, just this really basic idea that both Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith claim to be prophets of God, which means that they, you know, they, you know, Warren Jeffs particularly claimed to speak with God and for God and that with that came a belief that they had special powers. Now, Sam and Joanna, did you, you know, to what extent do you have any commentary on, you know, your belief that Warren spoke to and for God? And in Some ways kind of had special powers.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:34:52] Go ahead.

Joanna Fisher [00:34:53] I mean, there was this story it's. My stepdad told me once. He said one of his brothers were walking with Warren and they were. It was when they were building Texas, the Yearning for Zion Ranch down there. The ranch down there in Texas. And he said it was raining and it was muddy, and he looked down and Warren had no dirt on his shoes. And me, the child was like, okay, how is that possible? And he said, warren walks above the earth, as did Joseph Smith. That was interesting.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:35:22] I haven't heard that story at all, but it doesn't surprise me at all. Both Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs were both put on this really high pedestal. I mean, it was like. It was like Joseph Smith and then, yeah, sure, prophets and then. And then Warren Jeffs, like, it seemed like they were the two main. The big. The big. The big deal here. So.

Joanna Fisher [00:35:44] And I think we were taught like, Joseph Smith was the founder and he also was considered the Holy Ghost. And then Warren was supposed to be the last prophet that was supposed to help with the lifting up and the bringing, you know, of the cleansing of the earth, which I don't know if you guys are taught about that, but he was supposed to be the last. They were supposed to both represent a big, I guess, peace in the gospel and the restoration of the gospel.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:36:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] That was a big question. Jed and I had is like, like, how much emphasis was placed on Warren versus on Joseph Smith. If you had to, like, do a pie chart, percentage Warren, percentage Joseph Smith, and if you even had to rank them in heaven, just about how amazing they were, how would. How would Warren and Joseph stack up for. For you both?

Joanna Fisher [00:36:33] It would be both like, God Sea is kind of, you know, because Warren is the restoration, like our Joe Smith is a restoration. Warren Jeff's kind of seals the deal, I guess, in the end. And so they're both kind of saviors to the church. I think, like, they would both be right there.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:36:50] Yes. If you. If you asked someone, they would probably say that they were. They were about equal. But the vibe you got in the community was Warren Jazz is above all. Yeah, definitely. He was the most talked about. He was the one that needed to obey. If. If Joseph Smith says something that Warren now didn't agree with, you would follow Warren without any question. So he. The vibe was. He was a little bit set, a little higher even than Joseph Smith, I thought.

Joanna Fisher [00:37:20] I think that a little bit too. And it was because, like, they were like, times are changing. You know, Warren has more knowledge than Joseph Smith, he has given more revelations that Joseph Smith were not, was not given. So I think that would have been a little bit. But in my opinion, they would both be at the, basically at the throne about the same.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] Oh yeah, yeah. Well that's, that's interesting for, for Mormons, for, for LDS Church members today. I think, Jen, you tell me, Jen and Melissa, you tell me if you disagree. I think Joseph Smith trumps any modern day prophet. So whether it's Russell M. Nelson or Thomas S. Monson or, you know, or Gordon B. Hinckley or any of those modern prophets, it's pretty much always going to be Joseph. Is that your experience, Jen?

Jen Camp [00:38:07] Yeah, yeah, it's, it's always Joseph. I mean, we have, we have songs for him, but there is a, there is the same that we're taught that the prophets speak for God. Like even President Nelson's last thing that he did with the video with the little children, you know, it's called. Oh, what's it called exactly?

John Dehlin [00:38:32] Prophet speaks for God or something.

Joanna Fisher [00:38:34] Yeah, it's like Follow the prophet.

Jen Camp [00:38:36] Follow the prophet. He speaks for God. Yeah, something exactly stating that fact.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] So yeah.

Jen Camp [00:38:42] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [00:38:43] Well that's interesting. In our community also, we wrote songs about Warren. Yeah, a lot of songs about Warren.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:38:49] So yeah, I would say that when it came to the way I grew up with Joseph Smith and then the modern prophet, I would say, I don't know, I agree in the sense that Joseph Smith was most important because he restored the gospel. But I would also say that as I was getting older, it started shifting to where now the modern prophet, whatever they said was the most important, I felt like that was kind of shifting and that was something that hurt my shelf a little bit too was the idea that as these modern day prophets, as new prophets were coming along and they were able to say, oh, what the last prophet said didn't matter. That like really bothered me in my journey. And so even now, like, I feel like as they're kind of almost separating themselves more from how Joseph Smith originally restored the gospel and then how he even spoke about the office of a prophet. I mean, if you had asked Joseph Smith what a prophet was and what his role was, he would say that he spoke for God the same way that, you know, Warren Jeff says he does. If you ask President, if you ask a Mormon or Latter Day Saint now if Russell M. Nelson speaks with God or speaks for God, I think there's gonna be a slight more hesitation and that there's gonna be more emphasis on like it's revelation rather than direct words from God through the mouth of President Nelson. I don't know if that's just me.

Jen Camp [00:40:19] No, I, I would agree with that. I would definitely agree with that. I think they try to put praise back on Joseph Smith for starting the religion and, and the restoration of it. They talk a lot about, about that. But I do agree with Melissa that in the recent years they've started to be like, when I was young, it used to be whatever came out of the prophet's mouth that was right from God and it would never change. Like what they said was what it is and, and now it's moving more towards whoever is the prophet. Now what they're speaking is what we follow and do. So I would, I would agree with Muslim on that. I don't, I'm interested to know, though, this is something for me. I'm interested to know if in the flds, did they ever tell the story or the quote from Joseph Smith where he says that he, he is the only man in history that has created a church and, and kept it through the times.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Kept it together.

Jen Camp [00:41:31] Yeah, kept it together. Even Jesus couldn't do that. That's a quote for him. Like I can read the whole quote. I have it pulled up here from the church history site. But that's basically what he says. He says like he, he was even better than Jesus at keeping together the gospel.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:41:48] I've heard that quote that Joseph Smith said that, which was kind of surprising to me, but. But I don't remember them saying. I don't remember them using that for Warren Jeffs though, do you?

Joanna Fisher [00:42:01] I. Yeah, I don't think they ever use that.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:42:03] Did you hear that quote?

Joanna Fisher [00:42:04] I never heard that.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:42:05] Okay, so that's new to you? Yeah, that's a bad quote is something I, I heard later on. I don't, I don't believe I ever heard that in the flds.

Jen Camp [00:42:13] Okay. I'm just wondering that.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Cool. So in terms of, in terms of kind of authority Joseph Smith originally derives. His authority originally is from his treasure digging and perceptions that he had power to see, you know, buried treasure underground and angels and that sort of thing. But really, you know, he claims his authority from claiming that an angel visited him, that an angel gave him golden plates, and that God and Jesus. Eventually the story grows to where he claims that God and Jesus visited him. In the documentary Keep Sweet, you know, all that, you really get a sense of. You don't hear about God and Jesus visiting him. Orange Fs. You don't hear anything about angels giving him golden plates. All you hear is that he got close to ruling. And. And then when ruling dies, he says, well, Rulin chose me as the. The successor. But Sam and Joanna, can you talk at all about any teachings around Warren? Literally seeing or talking to God, seeing or talking to Jesus, or being visited by angels?

Joanna Fisher [00:43:23] I guess for me, like, we heard a lot that, you know, God spoke to him, but he never described it in picture form. It was never like, I saw an angel, I saw God. It was more, God has directed me to give this revelation. And then he would give a revelation and say, this is from God speaking through my son, the prophet, my mouthpiece, Warren S. Jeps. And that was kind of how it was.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:43:45] Yeah, he. For me, I mean, there was a little bit more than that. Even. Even in his own prison cell, before giving one of his sermons, he would say that God visited me in my prison cell last night. And this is what he told me to tell you.

Joanna Fisher [00:44:01] I did hear that phrase as well. It was never like, pictures, like, it was never like. And he looked like this, and there was a light like this. It was never described like that. It was just, God visited me. And then the way he gave his revelations was like he was talking as though he was God himself. And then he would say, I give these words to my servants.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:44:19] Yes, Orange F. Exactly. He would. He would talk sometimes as though he was just standing there, possessed, or his body was possessed by God. And his mouth. His mouth was moving because God was making him move. And even some of his sermons, he would stand up there and just kind of pause for a while and then look up and start talking. And it was to give us the. The idea that it was God taking over him, to literally have him say his words. And. And I remember when my older sister married ruling Jess, his Warren's father, visiting their home. I was under the assumption at that young age that there were literally angels in their home at all times with them, communicating with them, and that God, the heavenly Father, and Jesus Christ would come to his home and communicate with him at certain times. So it was definitely an impression given that they were in communication directly with heavenly beings. But. But like you said, they never tried to explain exactly what they looked like that I can remember.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] Yeah, got it. Makes sense. Okay. Well, you know, we talked a bit about. I noticed some similarities. One big one just being that both the. The modern LDS Church and the FLDS Church both had the practice of putting pictures of the prophets on the walls. Clearly, Warren encouraged that. But also songs about the prophets we referred to. And just a General culture of. Of never disagreeing with the prophet, probably private or in public. Was that. Was that your experiences, Sam and Joanna.

Unquestioning Obedience to the Prophet

Joanna Fisher [00:46:05] Yes. To question the prophet was to be damned? Basically, yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:09] Yeah. What do you mean, damned?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:46:11] Quite literally, meaning that you are no longer, well, in the. In today's world, you're no longer allowed to be in the community and be a part of the church. That would mean that put a stop to what you were doing within the church. And it also meant that on the other side, when you passed on, that you would be thrust into hell. Basically, yes.

Joanna Fisher [00:46:32] We were taught that men that didn't follow the prophet would turn into a son of perdition, which is where the devil punishes you for eternity. And then women become nothing. Like, they don't exist. Their soul is used to create other souls.

Jen Camp [00:46:48] Oh, wow.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:46:49] That's intense.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:46:50] Wow. But he would. Warren would use very harsh teachings to get people to be so afraid to disobey him. And I think it really started with Warren. I don't remember ruling ever talking like that.

Joanna Fisher [00:47:05] Yeah, we had ruling sermons, and I don't think he ever mentioned something like that. And the first time I heard that, I was terrified. Like, the thought of being, like, I guess, recycled for another soul, like, terrified me to death. But I was like, this is horrible. Like, yeah, even when I was a young kid, I was like, this is horrible and I want out. But at the same time, like, I was also very scared and did believe. Like, I went against my beliefs a lot and was like, I don't like this, but this is the way it is. I believed it, even if, you know, I didn't like it, I guess, but

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:47:39] kind of had to, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:42] Weren't. Weren't there some, like. I'm trying to think of certain sayings that they made in the movie about obedience. You know, in Mormonism, there. There are sayings, like, in our tradition, like, obedience is the first law of heaven, that, that you should obey with exactness. Are you aware of, like, sayings that people would say? And I think the documentary had a few of these that reflected how. Oh, oh, didn't Warren say, led by a hare?

Joanna Fisher [00:48:17] Yeah, he said obey as though you are being led by a hair.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] What did he mean by that?

Joanna Fisher [00:48:22] To not question or even doubt in your mind. Like, if you were doing something and you were being led by a rope, pretend it was a hair. Like, you cannot stray at all or that will snap. And if you do that, then you're off the straight and narrow.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:48:36] I mean, to the point that to not even start to think of. I mean, you most certainly should never vocalize any questions or doubts. But even thinking these questions and doubts could cause your damnation.

Joanna Fisher [00:48:51] Yeah, I remember there was one saying, it's like someone from back. And I don't remember who it was. I was really young. But it was a saying where he said he doubted the Prophet for 15 seconds and he didn't even allow it to get to 16 because he knew it would damn his soul. Like, so there was like stories like that and things like that.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:49:09] Right. And it's one. It was a way to, I guess, force us to not. I mean, if we started to have questions, if we started to have doubts, it put this fear in us that we can't really think about that and look into it, because if we do, then it will ultimately damn us and we will be, you know, we'll be kicked out of the community.

Joanna Fisher [00:49:28] That's the thing of, if you don't understand it, put it on the shelf. Just forget about it, sort of, you know, pray about it. But if you don't understand and it seems weird, put it on the shelf. Just, just don't worry about it. Like that was used. Put it on the shelf if you don't understand it.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] One other, One other comment I remember from the documentary was one of the young women saying, I'd rather die than disobey Warren. But let me ask you, Melissa, and then I'll ask you, Jen, you know, to put it in modern terms about how. How to what extent we're allowed to disagree with Joseph Smith. Melissa, cast yourself back in kind of your orthodox Mormon upbringing. Can you imagine ever standing up in church, in sacrament meeting, or in Sunday school or Relief Society or young women's and saying, hey, I just want to say I disagree with Joseph Smith on these four points?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:50:26] Oh, my word. No, no, definitely not. I feel like so much of my growing up in my youth was built around receiving and keeping a testimony of Joseph Smith. And he was very important in that aspect because, you know, without him, the church crumbles. And so I remember, like, when I gained my testimony of Joseph Smith, I remember it was. I was at EFY at BYU and I was in the choir and we sang praise to the man and I felt it all. And I knew that Joseph Smith had to be the prophet and those type of things, those environments. I feel like, especially for the youth, you definitely were constantly given opportunities to receive your testimony of Joseph Smith and to have them be reaffirmed to you over and over because of how important that was. And to try to say anything about that. Yeah, I can't even imagine trying to at a young age, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] So let's just say, you know, and Jen, I'll ask you this and then I'll throw it back to you. Melissa, let's just say a modern Mormon was going to say, well, let's. Could they stand up in church and say something like this? What would happen? Like, you know, Sunday school, raise your hand. You know, Joseph is great, but I don't like that he had 30 wives. Or I don't like that he married other men's wives. Or I don't like that the Book of Mormon. He wrote in the Book of Mormon that dark skin was a curse for wickedness. Or I don't like that he had so much power or that he lied to Emma about polygamy. And I don't like that he drank alcohol, you know, in his lifetime. The night before he died when they asked me not to drink. Jen, what, in your experience, what would happen if, if, if a Mormon ever said any of those things in 2022, what would happen?

Jen Camp [00:52:16] Well, in my 43 years, I never heard anyone stand up and say any of those things ever.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] Not one of them. Okay.

Jen Camp [00:52:26] None of them.

John Dehlin [00:52:26] I mean, those are, those are reasonable things to reasons to not like Joseph Smith.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:52:30] Right.

Jen Camp [00:52:30] If they did, putting myself back in there, I would probably take in a deep breath and be like, oh my goodness, what are they reading? Like, what anti Mormon stuff have they been reading? You know, they need to go talk to the bishop. Something's not right in their life. They're not reading their scriptures. Something's going wrong there. Because what they're saying I've never heard before.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] Okay.

Jen Camp [00:52:54] That's probably what my reaction would be.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] They'd probably get trouble, maybe shout it down, maybe told to be quiet, maybe asked to leave.

Joanna Fisher [00:53:00] Yeah.

Jen Camp [00:53:01] Or said it like someone would make sure they were talk. The bishop talked to them after, like something, something to that. That's what would be.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] And if they kept bringing that type of stuff up in church regularly, what would happen?

Jen Camp [00:53:14] They'd probably have a council and excommunicated. Right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] Yeah. Okay.

Jen Camp [00:53:18] I mean, it could be, but I would for sure say that the priesthood leaders would definitely be on, on top of that.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] Yeah. And in that way, I think we're very similar to the FLDS church. Melissa, is there anything that you would, would add to that or do you think we're being exaggerating?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:53:37] No, that's not exaggerating at all. And I actually, in one of our wards I remember there were a couple women in my ward that started saying just the tiniest things, and some of them weren't even anything that could be considered like, anti Joseph Smith. Just wanting to include that before the first vision happened that he was taken by the devil and he had that battle with the devil. I remember one of these women in particular being like, don't you think this is an important part to the story? And in Sunday school, and they like, brushed her aside and they were like, no, they wanted to focus on rainbows and butterflies. Not even the darker sides that are in the scriptures, anything to do with Joseph Smith. And they kind of put a target on their backs. And everybody in the ward was kind of honestly. And at this time, we were true believing. And I remember thinking we were just waiting to see what was going to happen to these women because they spoke up even the tiniest bit. And then all of a sudden we started hearing rumors that they're talking to the Sikh president, and everybody knew that disciplinary counsel was coming and that if they didn't fall back better into line that they would be excommunicated. And, yeah, it was like a rumor mill that everybody was just kind of waiting because they spoke up about these type of things, even if it was things that were within Mormon doctrine that are very, like, well taught normally. Like, I don't know how to describe it, but it was intense. The only time I've ever seen people stand up and everyone was waiting for their dismissal.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] Yeah, I think it's a really stark similarity between our two faiths, how unacceptable criticism of the prophet is. And that's all the way till 2022. So I think that's a fair. That's a fair comparison. And I think it's one of the most unhealthy things about the LDS Church. And. And I think it's almost identical to you all. Okay, so let's go to. You know, we already talked about both Warren and Joseph claim to talk to and for God as prophets, but let's talk specifically about revelations now. So, you know, many who know the LDS Church know that there's this whole book of scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants where. Where Joseph Smith wrote down revelations that he claimed were directly from God. You know, after he received the Book of Mormon, he wrote those revelations down and it became this book of scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants that sits alongside the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Can. Yeah, Sam and Joanna, can you all talk about how it was that Warren Jeffs received and wrote down Revelations and how they were shared with the membership.

Revelations, Failed Prophecies, and Blame

Joanna Fisher [00:56:29] So I think up until the end there or up to close to the end, he did speak a lot of them, like in meetings from jail. And a lot of them he would print out in pamphlets as well. And he would give them to the members only. And they were like revelations, which was kind of interesting because I had a brother that was our caretaker at the time because our stepdad was kicked out. Interesting story. But he one day came in with a folder and he went and sat behind everybody and he was like, I've been directed to read you a revelation from our prophet. He said, but you cannot look in this folder unless you are a full member, you know. And he read from it, and it was just another book. And they were considered words of God. They were considered revelations, like the Doctrine and Covenants. But unless you are a member, it was like it was gonna burn your eyes out if you saw those without being a member. And then when I became a member, I got those pamphlets as well.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [00:57:29] Joanna, really quick, do you want to describe to John? Because John and Jen might be a little bit confused when she uses the verbiage like of a member. Because in lds, we think of a member as anybody who. Yeah, anybody who's baptized, right? Then they become a member. But what do you mean when you say the word anybody who's been baptized? Do you want to kind of give them just like a little bit of context when you say that?

Joanna Fisher [00:57:52] Okay, weird story. I was baptized when I was 8. Everybody was considered members then. But he had a thing that they called the restoration or restoral. No, restoral. Yes. I think they baptized everybody. They were basically given a clean slate. Later on when I'm 11, this happened when I'm like 9. Later on when I'm 11, they did what they called members and non members. And you went in, you shook hands with Lyle, who was the bishop. He's Warren's brother, younger brother. And he would ask you if you were clean and pure. And I mean, I was 11. I said yes. Some people said, they said no. But he was given supposedly revelation from God if you were worthy. And then they hand selected people. Like half of my family was members, half were not. And then you went and got re baptized. And then you got to continue to go to church and be a part of the church. I guess you got to go to church and be a part of, you know, the priesthood projects and you got to learn more about the. The gospel and what we were being taught through Warren and the other people did not until they were considered worthy.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] That's fascinating. I'm curious. I'm curious, just as I don't want to stray too much. But, Joanna. What, what? Tell us again what age you got out and how did you avoid getting. Getting married to someone. And we'll have you, if you're able. We'll have you back on Mormon stories. But I'm just dying to know. Just because I'm dying to know.

Joanna Fisher [00:59:18] Well, first of all, I want to say thank you to the Wall Sisters for testifying against Warren Jeffs, because I do believe that if he was not put in jail, I probably would have been married into the church or, you know, when I was still there. I left when I was 17. But when Warren went to jail, he was the only person who could perform marriages. So all marriages stopped when he was put in jail?

John Dehlin [00:59:43] Yeah, well, that, that. I should have put that math together because I knew that. And he told me how old you were when he was put in jail. But thanks for connecting those dots for me. But when we talk about the differences between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs, I didn't have that as a difference, but that's a major one. That, that when Warren wasn't. We talked about this, Sam and Melissa, in our interview with you, when, when Warren, Jess wasn't getting any sex, nobody was getting any sex or getting married, for that matter, or touching each other, as you guys said. And that's, that's a major difference.

Jen Camp [01:00:17] Yeah. Stop. To all of that happened when he went into prison, if I remember from Sam's story.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] Yeah, Joy and Sam in, in Mormonism, we call that a tender mercy that, that Warren Jeffs stopped me. Stopped marriages and sex when he went to jail. Were you gonna say something, Joanna?

Joanna Fisher [01:00:37] Yes, I was gonna say the, like sexual relations didn't stop until probably 2010, actually. So it was, it was many years later. And it was a revelation that he gave from jail. And the reason being was he said that the people were not pure enough. And so we were no longer allowed to raise children in the order until we were considered worthy. So no more sex because we only have sex too have children.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:01:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] And you would have been, you would have been how old when that revelation came down?

Joanna Fisher [01:01:06] Probably nine or ten.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] Okay, so still you still young?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:01:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:10] Okay. All right. Okay. So when we talk about revelations, one of the things that I noticed about Joseph Smith once I was willing to look at his revelations with more scrutiny is that they were often self serving. So it's like, oh, he needs some money. Well, he's commanding Martin Harris to give him money or he wants someone's property, he's you know, implementing united order or whatever. Or the biggest, most dramatic example, Jen, you probably have it with DNC132.32. What would you say about that?

Jen Camp [01:01:42] When he wanted other people's wives, then he made DNC132 or just more women in general.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] And when he wanted, when, when Emma wasn't complying with his polygamy, lo and

Jen Camp [01:01:53] behold, what she was damned 11 times in, in DNC 132 if she did not follow it. I think it says it 11 times that Emma would be damned if she didn't follow.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] Now maybe that's God, but, but a critical, skeptical person would say, hmm, that sounds like Joseph Smith may have been attributing to God his own desires. Is that fair?

Jen Camp [01:02:17] Well, yeah, and there's so much I could say about that. But in the, in that little thing about that, in that revelation, you know, it tells, you know, it would it that he couldn't take any wives unless Emma okayed it, you know, and that was a no, no. But you know, but there was no damning of him. You know, if he did, you know, that would be Emma being damned because she didn't say yes. You know, it's just so, so over the top. So over the top. Wrong in every way.

John Dehlin [01:02:49] Yeah. Yeah. So Sam and Joanna, I'm curious to what extent could you guys look at Warren's revelations and kind of now go unlikely from God? More likely Warren just wanted something and that's where the revelations came from.

Joanna Fisher [01:03:09] Yeah, I would say that what I was going to say is like there was a revelation that he gave and it was one where it was directed towards women. And it said in there, if you disobey your husband, he can lose his priesthood because of you and your disobedience.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:03:26] Yes, it definitely seemed like a lot of the blame was put on the women. If they did anything wrong, it was the woman's fault. The men, if they did something wrong, the women shouldn't say anything about it other than just try to be there for him and support him so that he can be a better priesthood man. But the revelations from Warren100 seemed like they were self serving. Looking back now, obviously at the time I thought, oh, this is what God wants. Months, this is amazing. We're just doing his work and everything was great. But looking back now, I mean he would call on the community to give him thousands and thousands of dollars and say that it was for the building up of the Kingdom of God. But obviously looking back now and seeing what he was doing during the time that he was running from the law, he was obviously using this money for his own self, whatever he wanted to do at the time.

Joanna Fisher [01:04:19] Yeah, they would give revelations where it'd be like, this is a revelation from God. I've been directed to collect 3,000 from every elder and any extra money from any family member that you have. And we would get together and put our pennies like break our, you know, piggy banks. We saved money when we were kids and give all of the cents that we had and little dollars and we'd give it all to the church because Warren needed it to build Zion.

John Dehlin [01:04:44] And that we'll talk about later what we learned from the documentary about what Warren was doing with that money. But we'll wait. That comes later. Okay, I'll ask about this. So there's this idea of revelations that are self serving. There's also this idea of revelations that don't come true in the Mormon Church. You could have some examples. Let's just say Joseph Smith, you know, prophesying that they'd sell the Book of Mormon copyright in Canada, but it never got sold. I think he prophesied that they would find some treasures in Boston or New England that never got found. Of course, the whole Independence Missouri was supposed to be the gathering place where Jesus would come back. That never happened. And so there, there are lots of examples of, oh, and Zion's camp where Joseph took a bunch of people down to Missouri to fight, you know, the Missouri government allegedly, but then they ended up running away with their tails between their legs. So there, there was a lot of failed prophecies with Joseph Smith. And whenever there were failed prophecies there was this thing called blame reversal which cults or high demand religions do, which is they blame the members when, when the prophecies don't come true. Did I get that right, Jen?

Jen Camp [01:06:01] Yeah, for not being obedient enough. It was them, you know, not praying, not reading their scriptures like that. It was blamed on the members instead of the prophets revelation just not coming true. Like them getting it wrong.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Sam and Joanna, did that apply to Warren Jeffs? And if so talk about failed prophecies and then talk about if he used blame reversal to blame the members.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:06:31] You know, it doesn't seem like the mainstream LDS church does a lot of, of prophesying exact dates anymore. I think there's a reason for that. But going back to Joseph Smith's day, kind of the same thing there. Warren Jeffs would prophesy of things happening on a specific date. And I think his reason for doing that was to make us feel like, oh, he knows what's about to happen. We better. We better straighten up. We better do things as he tells us to do them, or else we're not going to be. We're not going to be lifted up off of the earth in some cases while the Earth is destroyed or whatever the prophecy was. But every time it didn't happen, it was always the fault of the members. It was always our fault. And we just felt guilty and shame for not being righteous enough because it was always turned on us.

Joanna Fisher [01:07:24] Yes, there was a revelation. We were told that in 2012 there was going to be the destruction of the Earth, the cleansing of the Earth and the lifting up. And I remember at the end of 2013, like, watching the clock, crossing my fingers, being like, you know what?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:07:39] 2011, right?

Joanna Fisher [01:07:40] Yes. So it's 2012 when it's gonna happen. It's the first 2012. So it was like New Year's Eve. And I was like, okay, here we go. Like, the destructions are gonna happen one more minute and everything's just gonna crumble. Like, I remember having those fears and those thoughts, and then it just didn't. And then next Sunday, it was like the revelation given was, if the lifting up would have happened, then there would have been no one for Jesus to come and see because no one was worthy. And that's why it didn't happen.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Yeah, that's so sketchy. Thanks for sharing that, Joanne. I hadn't heard that. The one that comes from the documentary, that to me was really shocking. And Sam and Melissa, we talked about that in your episode. It was Warren prophesying during the time of Olympics.

Jen Camp [01:08:24] Sam, I think that's that same one.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] Yes. No, that's a different one because that was 2002. Sam, do you want to. Do you want to kind of retell that story just really briefly?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:08:34] Yes. So in 2002, the Olympics were to come to Salt Lake Valley. At that time, there were a lot of FLDS members living in 2001, in 2000 and before living in Salt Lake. And there was actually a fairly large community up there. And Warren saying that it was. He was prophesying at this time for ruling. Jeffs told everyone that if they did not move out of Salt Lake City and move down to Shore Creek, that they would be destroyed along with Salt Lake City. Because we were told that if the Olympics did come to Salt Lake, that the city and everyone there would be destroyed. So we were everyone that was there. I was already living in Shore Creek at this time. So I just remember a lot of people all of a sudden showing up, a lot of homes being built all of a sudden, and a lot of people moving in. And so it was just like, okay, wow. I mean, I fully believed it. But of course, when Salt Lake City wasn't destroyed, it was once again blamed on us. And we were told that we just didn't have enough faith and that it was our fault that, that Christ didn't come and that, that the. I guess the place wasn't destroyed.

Joanna Fisher [01:09:53] I think that revelation was given a couple times, I mean, with the same sort of, you know, fair energy where the end of the earth is going to happen. Because I, if I remember right, it happened in 2010 as well.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:10:04] So I guess. Yes. So it wasn't just going to be Salt Lake City that was destroyed. I'm sorry. It was going to be the entire earth and everyone needed to, to be in Shore Creek because Shore Creek was going to be the place, the safe haven to not be destroyed.

Joanna Fisher [01:10:17] Yeah. The earth was going to be lifted up.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:10:19] Yes.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:10:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] And that's, that's something that people don't realize about religious psychology. You would think that it would ruin a religion anytime. Like an end of times date was prophesied about and then it came and went. But what we learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses, they've had that happen three or four times during their history or more. And every time, if you add the blame reversal after the failed prophecy, you actually strengthen people's allegiance to the church, not weaken it. And that, that helps explain why so many people would follow Joseph Smith on treasure digs. And even though Joseph never found any treasure, you would still have many of his followers claim that he still had powers. They just never saw any treasure. And, and it was blame reversal that Joseph would also use when the treasure wasn't found. He would blame the, the diggers and the participants in the treasure dig. He would blame them for the treasure not being found, and that's why they still believed in him afterwards. Jen, were you going to add something?

Patriarchal Blessings and Prophetic Authority

Jen Camp [01:11:26] I was just, was just going to add that it is also like passed down to patriarchs in our LDS Church, where. I'm just guessing, but I'm guessing probably 99 of patriarchal blessings. They give you this blessing from God. You know, it's supposed to be right from God to you. And at the end of every one, it says these will only happen if you are faithful. And obedient. And so it's, you know, so now all these people have these personal blessings that they keep with them. They memorize them. It's their, you know, personal, you know, letter from God to them. And if. If things are not happening as it's laid out for them in that blessing, that is so hard for so many people. And if it's not happening, it's them. And that causes so much harm to so many people. But that's the same thing. You know, it's a revelation, but it's always stated that way. It's always. Because you were not good.

John Dehlin [01:12:37] Yeah, absolutely.

Jen Camp [01:12:37] It's not coming true because you weren't good enough.

John Dehlin [01:12:40] Absolutely.

Jen Camp [01:12:41] So it's. In our church, we have those. I don't know if you guys have that in the flds.

John Dehlin [01:12:45] Yeah. Sam, thinking about my interview with you, it was either your dad or your. Or your grandpa that were actual patriarchs. Is that right? And. And did. Did your patriarchal blessings in the FLDS church have the same kind of blame reversal, conditional fulfillment as. As ours do in the LDS Church?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:13:07] Yeah. So it's my father and he. I never got a patriarchal blessing out there. I. I never, I guess, reached the age, or when I did reach the age, I wasn't worthy enough or something. I don't know all the details on why I didn't get one, but I couldn't say exactly what was said in the patriarchal blessings in the flds, because though my father was a patriarch and though I know he gave many of blessings I did, I didn't ever hear exactly what was on them.

John Dehlin [01:13:39] Did you get a patriarchal blessing, Joanna? Oh, sorry, sorry.

Joanna Fisher [01:13:44] My mother did.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Your mother did?

Joanna Fisher [01:13:46] Yes. And the difference, I think, with that one is it tells you, like, all these great things you will receive, but it also brings up struggles and hardships that you must overcome. So with my mom, she had a mental illness and that was mentioned in her patriarchal blessing, which is kind of ironic because she was already diagnosed. But they were like, you will struggle, you know, with this mental illness and you will be fighting the devil and da, da, da, if you, you stick it out to the end and you pray and you're good, these will be your blessings. If not, of course, you know, you will continue to struggle.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:14:22] So do you know who gave her her blessing?

Joanna Fisher [01:14:25] I do not. Okay.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:14:27] Just curious.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] All right. Okay. Well, that kind of covers similarities between Joseph and Warren regarding failed prophecies and blame reversal. Let's talk about money. Now, you know, of course, in the, in the LDS Latter Day Saint tradition with Joseph Smith. He's. He, you know, he. He used Warren Jeffs. I mean, sorry. He used Martin Harris from the very beginning as someone who helped finance the Book of Mormon. He was always finding wealthy, influential people to help finance his work. The temples were built with people's donations. A lot of sacrifices were made. And of course, we know about United Order, where ultimately Joseph Smith implemented just kind of like, I. I don't you want to say socialism or communism, but. But basically this principle that. That everyone shares all finances, which basically means Joseph Smith gets to control all the money. And, you know, that's. That's what Joseph Smith implemented. Now, Sam and Joanna, to what extent did that apply to Warren?

Financial Control in the FLDS and LDS

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:15:35] Oh, man, 100%. Go ahead. You were right there in the middle.

Joanna Fisher [01:15:40] Where to start. So we were right down to food stamp fraud. I don't know if you heard about that, but we were told to give everything to the church and they would give you back what you needed. So we had government food stamps because we had a million kids, you know, and we would go spend and max out the food stamp card at the first day every month, turn all of that food into the storehouse because we were required to.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] You didn't even get to keep your own food?

Joanna Fisher [01:16:06] No.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] I mean, you would go back to

Joanna Fisher [01:16:08] the storehouse and get what you needed.

John Dehlin [01:16:11] Holy moly.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:16:12] Yeah, yeah, I'd heard about that. That started after I had moved out, so I didn't have to deal with that. But even when I was out there, it was very obvious. You would see some of the men that Warren had closest to him were successful men with very successful companies, and he would keep them as his counselor or his bodyguard or whatever the case may be. It seemed like a lot of these men that were always around him were very successful and had successful companies. So I. I saw that part of it, and I also saw the part of it where they did want. Well, Warren himself actually started taking over a lot of these companies and forcing the man to turn them into the church so the church would have complete control over the finances. And, of course, the men were expected to keep running the companies and making sure that everything runs smoothly, but they just didn't have any control over the money at that point. Yeah.

Jen Camp [01:17:07] Hey, Joanna, I have a question for you. When you. You got all the food stamps and the. Or the food from the food stamps and you took it to the warehouse, could you then go through the warehouse and take whatever you wanted

Joanna Fisher [01:17:21] to a degree. So there was, like, a limited amount for, like, depending on how big your family was. And then towards the end there, they did what they called storehouse requests. And you would fill out a paper every week of what your family would eat, and then they would bring it to you. And a lot of times it was half of what you needed, or it was like we didn't have as much of that, so you don't get that this time. So at the end there, they delivered food to all the homes, and you just got what you got.

Jen Camp [01:17:48] Okay. I was just wondering if it was the same as the. Our church kind of does it now. So I was just wondering that.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Yeah. What. One of the. That was a great question, Jen. Thanks for answering, Joanna. One of the. One of the parts of the documentary that was most shocking for me was, well, of my interview with you, you and Melissa, Sam, that we're going to air on Monday was just to hear how, like, if you started a successful business, at some point under Warren, you had to give the business over to Warren. He would own the property on your house, he would own your business, he would own everything. That. That was shocking to hear. And if you want to hear more about that, viewers and listeners, check out Sam and Melissa's interview. That's coming up soon. But then also, just in the documentary, the. The point where they're, like, sending him, what, $300,000 a day rolled up in, like, tomato cans and. Or a week.

Joanna Fisher [01:18:43] A week?

Jen Camp [01:18:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:43] $300,000 a week they're sending to Warren while he's on the run, rolled up in. In tomato cans. So. So Sam and Joanna, do you. Do you all want to just talk about a little bit more about some of those extreme circumstances where basically the church. You didn't even own your own house. You didn't even own your own business, you know.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:19:05] Right. Everything that we had was given to us by the church. So, I mean, the. The home we lived in, the. The wives that were given to men were given to them by the church. So therefore, in a way, the church owned your spouse and owned the children that you had with that spouse. So it was, in a way, set up, designed so that the church or the people of the church felt like they didn't personally own anything, that it all belonged to the church, in a way. Did you have that same feeling?

Joanna Fisher [01:19:34] I did. And another thing is, like, a lot of people were directed in which career path to take in the church. So like my uncle, he's one of the most successful dentists in the world. Dan, Dr. Dan Fisher, he was directed to become a dentist, and he did. And then he ended up inventing, like some tools for orthodontics and he has his own teeth whitening, but he was directed to turn that in and he refused. So he was then told to sell the company, which he refused and of course left.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:20:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:05] Wow. But I'm inspired by stories of defiance because the power was just so comprehensive.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:20:14] Also, John, can I just add in there that whenever I hear these stories of this happening, I can't help but think from my childhood that these people are just living the higher law. Because in church history, this is the law of consecration. This is what Justice Smith had tried and failed to do. And so the first time I was hearing about this and Sam was telling me about it, I'm like, you guys were doing what in my mind and all growing up, I was told is like this higher law. If only everyone could be righteous enough to make that actually work. And so it was something that was always like glamorized in my mind. And so the fact that they were actually trying to do it, obviously not successfully either, but it always reminds me of church history.

Jen Camp [01:20:58] I had the, I had the exact same thought. I actually wrote it down as she was talking because I wanted to make sure I said that. I said consecrate everything to the church temple ceremony. Like in our temple ceremony, we, we say that every time we go through the temple. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:13] So covenant to give everything.

Jen Camp [01:21:14] We covenant to. Yeah, give everything to the church. And so we're making that same promise, but we haven't been asked to do it yet.

John Dehlin [01:21:22] I remember coveting even to give everything, even your own lives if necessary for the building up, strengthening of Zion. Was it that way with you? Yeah, but, but, yes, but, but just to kind of close out this point, even if the modern LDS Church is not practicing this level of financial control, there's a little bit of that because it's 10% of your income for life and you pay. If you serve a two year mission for the church, you still pay to serve a mission. That's kind of bizarre that the church has hundreds of billions of dollars and missionaries are paying their own missions in addition to 10% of their income for life and fast offerings. But, but admittedly, it's not as severe as what Warren Jeffs and the FLDS people are doing. But Joseph Smith set the precedent of literally all things in common, which meant almost total financial control. And so in that sense, Joseph and Warren were a lot more similar than the modern day LDS Church is to Joseph Smith. Does that make sense?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:22:30] Yeah, well, if anything, too like, not only are Warren and Joseph similar in that aspect, Warren is fulfilling what Joseph prophesied would be the best way to do it. Right. So he's kind of. Warren's fulfilling Joseph's prophecy and what he said is important in the restoration.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:22:49] And I think that Warren probably, had he not gotten caught and thrown into prison, I think he probably would have been successful with it. And he probably would have said, ha, I'm the only one. Even Joseph Smith couldn't do this. No one could do this. I was able to make it happen. And, you know, so it was something that was actually working until the raid and the, the law enforcement made everyone kind of split up there at the,

Joanna Fisher [01:23:12] at the ranch now we even had papers where we sacrificed what we call time. You wrote down how many hours you spent working blessing others, how many hours you spent playing or wasting time, and why at the end there. And you had to turn those in every month, like right down to consecrating time is what they called it.

John Dehlin [01:23:31] Yeah, that's another Sam. Another really powerful part of your interview is just to hear as soon as you're of age, you quit school and you start working on construction projects. I think we called it construction culture a little bit. But make sure and check in, check out Sam's interview because he talks a lot about that. That was a really fascinating part of your interview.

Joanna Fisher [01:23:52] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] Yeah. Yeah. And Melissa, what a great point. That in so many ways Warren Jeffs was a better Mormon and was more true to Joseph Smith than the modern day LDS church.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:24:09] Absolutely. Yeah. I think a lot of times, again on our channel especially, people look at these people and they think, okay, it's so crazy. It's so far fetched. And Sam says this, I know, to a lot of people, and they say, well, what's the biggest difference between the LDS and the flds? And he normally replies with, the FLDS are living the restoration as Joseph Smith intended it, better than the current LDS mainstream. Yeah, that's the biggest difference.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:24:37] People don't like that answer. But if you look at it, you know, before, before it all came crumbling down. Right. That Warren's last power moves, you know, it was very similar.

John Dehlin [01:24:50] Yeah. Okay, so the next big topic we have is patriarchy. And this is a really important topic. And I just want to begin with Joseph Smith on this one. And Jen, I, you know, I know you feel really passionately about this and I'm guessing Melissa and Joanna will as well. This is like, you know, why, why is it cool to have a prophet? It's Cool to have a prophet because then you get God's will. Right. You get what God's wants, you get God's pure word. You don't have to deal with any of the cultural stuff, any of the problems. You know, exactly what God wants. And so we have this opportunity now where, you know, Joseph Smith claims to be talking to God and, and we get to set up the church exactly as God wants it. Right. God can do whatever he wants. Right. God's all powerful. Right Jen?

Jen Camp [01:25:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] And God can do whatever he wants.

Jen Camp [01:25:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:45] And God loves everyone equally.

Jen Camp [01:25:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:47] And so what God chooses to do under Joseph Smith is to implement a super patriarchy where not only are women second class citizens, but they literally can't have the priesthood, they can't have any of the major offices. And you know that, you know, they're second class citizens and their wives to their husbands and they're not encouraged to get their own power, they're not encouraged to get their own source of income. Instead they're encouraged to have as many kids as possible, as young as they can, which then, you know, leaves them obligated to the church and powerless and completely dependent. And that's, that's what God wanted in his one true church. And that's patriarchy. Jen, I imagine you might have a thought or two about that.

Jen Camp [01:26:39] Yeah, it doesn't, Yeah. I don't know, like when I was in the church, like it all made sense that that's the way that God wanted it and that's, you know, was taught, that was indoctrinated in me. And then stepping away from the church, like, you see, you see how wrong it is. You see how wrong that is. You see how that came from man, not God, and how like so many more important things were like, could have been said, could have been told to Joseph, could have been restored or like put in place at that time. And that's what God chose to do. Yeah, no, that's what Joseph chose to do. That's what Joseph told to do. And I know, I know a lot of, you know, my heart, my heart is like, I want to say things, but then, because I know that growing up in polygamy has followers that are still active LDS members. Like, there's a part of me that like, doesn't want to say all the things I'm saying today because I don't, because I remember how hurt and devastated I was finding out all of these things. And so I, I just am sending love to all the active LDS people right now. But there's a Lot. There's a lot that I now believe came from man. And there's a lot that was interesting to me that was put in place by Joseph Smith that said came from God. Like women in the church up in tell. I can find records until Joseph. Well, why Joseph building? I think Joseph F. Smith was the patriarch. I can't remember. I'll look at my notes right here in just a second. But Joseph Fielding Smith. So Joseph Fielding Smith was the patriarch. And women would go around doing the healing blessings. Like women did the rituals in the temple. Yeah, the healing rituals in the temple. And they. And these healing blessings and rituals that they did. Didn't have oil, didn't have. You didn't need to have. Have the priesthood. They were just taught and the women could do them. There's just so many things that I find going back and looking at all of these things that are interesting. How that same patriarchy that was made by Joseph Smith in making the church, how that kind of evolved and gotten worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse instead of getting better over time. How you think it would.

John Dehlin [01:29:41] Right.

Jen Camp [01:29:41] But it's almost like it's being more strict and more strict even until today where we're like the women started to ask about Heavenly Mother and they were shut down.

John Dehlin [01:29:51] Yeah.

Jen Camp [01:29:52] Like, I'm just sorry.

John Dehlin [01:29:54] No, that's great.

Jen Camp [01:29:55] That's Jen going off on a rant about patriarchy and women, the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:30:01] So that's a really important part of our history that people don't know about. There's a really important article, dialogue article, I think it's called A Gift Given and a Gift taken Away, where it talks about how actually Mormon women in some ways had more power and authority earlier in the church's history to be able to give blessings of healing, to be able to do washings and anointings before like a childbirth. And that. That always taken away. That was all Was taken away in kind of the early 20th century. Yeah, but, but, but, but yeah. Joseph Smith implemented a super patriarchy. And I just want to say that just like you know, and it's still the true in 2022. Yeah, it's completely a super patriarchy. No bishops, no stake presidents, no stake high councilors, no Melchizedek or ironic priesthood holders, no general authorities, and no prophets or first presidency members or apostles can be women. And I just want to say it's as outrageous that you can't criticize a Mormon prophet in a Mormon church. It's as outrageous as that. That in 2022 women in a civilized, you know, multi hundred billion dollar organization. Women are still totally sec, you know, for second class citizens and bringing it back to the flds. You know, if Mormons are keeping the patriarchy at a 10, the FLDS take it to an 11 or even a 15. And so let's, let's bring you guys in, Sam and Joanna, to talk about the, the role of women and the super patriarchy in the FLDS church.

Women Under the Patriarchy

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:31:48] This is all you.

Joanna Fisher [01:31:50] So for us women, they up and up to the end there, they told us how to dress right down to the plaid. Like the material, everything had to be a solid material, how to comb our hair, had to be completely up on your head. And then when it came to marriage, sex and having children, it was when your man wanted it, it was when he wanted a child. It wasn't up to you, wasn't up to you who you married or really like the dynamic. If, you know, if you had a punishment for the child, it was okay through the father or priesthood head, then you could go through with it. So I think, and like, even like we worked on priesthood projects and stuff, but a lot of women were discouraged from getting jobs. A lot of us did in the end because we had to, but they discouraged a lot of that. We were taught that our role was to be a housewife and to bring as many children into the gospel and to this earth as possible.

John Dehlin [01:32:47] Yes, Sam.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:32:49] Yeah, no, that was my experience as well. Not as a woman, obviously. I didn't really get to experience what the women had to go through. But I did see that it was very simply put, the man had the final say in our home, for example, if we wanted something. And we went to him, one of the mothers, and said, you know, hey, can we have this? It was always, you need to ask your father. And so we would work up the courage to make that phone call and try to call him and ask him, hey, can I have a cell phone? I'm 16 now. I'll buy it myself, you know, and it's. But, but it had to, it was always his final say. The women were there to enforce his rules.

John Dehlin [01:33:36] So, so the homes were very patriarchal. I'm here hearing you say the, the father. I remember you telling a cool story, Sam, about how the entire family would get together and celebrate your father's birthday once a year. But then I asked you whether you ever did that for any of your, your, you had three, four, four mothers. For any of your four mothers. What was your answer?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:34:00] No, I mean, it was, it was something that their birthdays were kind of like the children's birthdays. You know, they were recognized and if you're lucky, you get a cake or something. But there wasn't a lot of celebrating going on.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Yeah. And just what about church leadership? So, like prophet, first presidency, you know, top leaders in the church, how many of them, or even bishops or anything, to what extent did women have representation there in the FLDS church?

Joanna Fisher [01:34:31] None. Zero. Excuse me?

John Dehlin [01:34:35] That was a short answer.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:34:38] That's all you get? No, I would say. I mean, yes, it was very rare to see a woman even be able to voice her opinion about something. So to be completely honest with you, I don't know if this talks about it in the Keep Sweet documentary Keep Sweet and Obey or if it was a different one we watched. But when Naomi Jeffs, who was Warren's wife, stood up to say that and share her opinion that she received this revelation that Warren was to be the next prophet, I remember throughout the community it was like, but why do we care what she thinks about it? Right? So it wasn't until, I mean, I can't speak for everyone personal opinion here. When it wasn't until Warren himself stood up and said, hey, I am to be the next prophet. My father told me that I would to be was going to be. And that. And I received direct counsel from God that I really felt okay, I, I believe him now.

Joanna Fisher [01:35:37] And in my understanding, she only got up and voiced that because she was directed to by Warren.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:35:44] He thought that it might help the community believe him.

Jen Camp [01:35:46] Yes.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:35:47] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [01:35:47] Which was weird because we never saw women at the pulpit, like, unless it was a funeral and you were telling a story about the deceased or the loved one. I never saw women at the pulpit, like, ever. Not even. I don't remember even seeing a woman bear her testimony in church. We did it in families, family groups, but I don't ever remember seeing a woman. Did you ever see a woman bear a testimony in church?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:36:11] Not that I can remember, no.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] Yeah. And I think it was a crazy long time in the LDS Church before women were allowed to pray in sacrament meeting. People don't know this because it's like pre 1980s really, but my understanding is it. And even praying in General Conference, the first instance, I do remember that women praying in General Conference was actually relatively recent. And of course, women speaking in General Conference for a long, long time. They just didn't. Even today, the ratio of number of women who speak at an LDS Church general conference versus men, I mean, it's like 10 or 20 to 1. That ratio.

Jen Camp [01:36:51] Right. And they can't just have their own meeting without the priesthood there.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:36:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:58] Yeah. Really quickly, Melissa, we want to give you a chance to speak out on the patriarchy. Either your experiences in the LDS Church's patriarchy or your experiences or, or knowledge about the flds because you know, you know quite a bit about the FLDS church. Melissa.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:37:15] Yeah, at this point I'm definitely getting there. Don't have the personal experiences, but I have the awesome opportunity to hear from not just Sam, but awesome cousins like Joanna and a lot of Sam's sisters. And I've had a lot of heart to heart, a lot of people that don't feel comfortable sharing their story even on YouTube and stuff. I've been able to have heart to heart. So I really feel for especially the women and a lot of Sam sisters and stuff. So I love any opportunity to be able to be an advocate for them. But as far as the patriarchy goes in the LDS Church, for me it was really interesting growing up. I feel like it was something that there's so many women out there that are advocating for women to have the priesthood and to get further in the church. And I was kind of raised the opposite way that the whole purpose of the it's a restored gospel. And so restoring back to New Testament times means that the women wouldn't have any power no matter what society is like now. And that any progression towards women having more of those opportunities was troublesome to the fact that it was a restoration. And it's troublesome that we're changing with the times. So just as an example, I remember when I went to have my endowment for myself and in the Washington anointings there was a woman that placed her hands upon my head and it was probably the most uncomfortable portion of my entire first temple experience because I had spent my entire life defending the patriarchy and defending why we get to be receivers of the priesthood and be a part of it without holding it right. We get to share in the blessings of it. And I was about to be sealed in the temple, so I was going to have my priesthood holder for all eternity that I could get reap the blessings of his priesthood without needing to hold it myself. And so I guess I had bought into that so much growing up that any progress for women I looked at as a negative thing rather than a positive. Which is crazy to me now because yeah, like DNC132 drives me nuts and obviously I feel very differently about that. But that that's the mindset that I was in Growing up, which is similar to the way that FLDS grew up as well. I think you're just taught that that's how it is and that that is God's way.

Joanna Fisher [01:39:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:39:47] I'm thinking of, I thought of at least three things while you were talking, Melissa. One is that one is that in the modern LDS Church, the one that, you know, we just, you know, were kicked out of. Her left. There's still no such thing as a mother's blessing. Fathers, there's a, there's a yearly ritual of father's blessings. But if any of you, you know, Melissa or Jen, did you ever hear of a mother's blessing, A ritual of an annual mother's blessing? Does that exist?

Joanna Fisher [01:40:16] No. No.

John Dehlin [01:40:17] Why is that?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:40:19] Because I don't hold the priesthood.

Joanna Fisher [01:40:21] I don't know.

Jen Camp [01:40:22] I guess it was done back in Joseph's time a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:40:25] And women can't heal the sick, but men can heal the sick. You know, there's just so many things. A second thing, a second thing that I thought about was your amazing story, Melissa. And, and you guys are going to love Melissa's story. Melissa, you were different than the average Mormon, you know, teenager slash young women woman, because you ended up getting a really cool job at In N Out. And you rose through the ranks of leadership quite quickly in a way that most, you know, Mormon teenage girls or Mormon young women don't get to do. And, and you were, you were on your rise to corporate success. And then what happened when you found the love of your life?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:41:15] Then when I found the love of my life? Well, then my goal was to have children and to stay home with them.

John Dehlin [01:41:23] Yeah. So your career disappears. Now, I'm not saying you're happy or sad about that, but, but you know, that that's something that's kind of interesting and important.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:41:33] Yeah, that was definitely something that I never felt was like a religious pressure as much as. But I mean, looking back, everything's religious pressure, right? Like when you're raised that way, you don't think of anything else as anything like that. But that was something that I was super excited to do to be able to stay at home with my babies. So it was never a thought my entire life to never a thought to stop excelling at my job, even though I knew that it was at the end of the road, I was going to take a step back and be a stay at home mom and stop that. I would say my career choice actually was dictated by that because I had the option to continue to go to school. And I remember Getting ready to go into my program at byu, and I was a manager in and out and decided, making that decision. I remember thinking, being an accountant is going to be harder for me to put on the shelf as a mother than if I make money now and invest in real estate, I can continue to do that. So even my decision in deciding, like college or the workforce and to continue moving forward and making money and making those goals all was centered around the knowledge that when I had children, I was going to be at home with them.

John Dehlin [01:42:46] Fascinating. So. So it's time to turn to our favorite topic, everyone's favorite topic, which is polygamy. And I'm going to start by asking it this way. I talked about patriarchy right before polygamy, because I have a theory, and I want. Jen, I want you and Joanna and Melissa, I want you to test my theory. I have a theory that if women were given equal representation in decision making, that polygamy would not be the outcome. Structure of marriage. To discuss. Discuss. Each of you take a turn. Am I crazy there? Or is there. Is there something to that?

Personal Experiences With Polygamy))

Jen Camp [01:43:34] I'll just say 100% from Jen.

John Dehlin [01:43:37] You. So you wouldn't. You wouldn't choose that. Jen, if you could choose a marriage, a celestial marriage structure, you wouldn't choose polygamy?

Jen Camp [01:43:45] No. No, no.

John Dehlin [01:43:47] Okay. Really, I'm just. I'm just making sure.

Jen Camp [01:43:50] Nope. That's a.

John Dehlin [01:43:51] That's a nope.

Jen Camp [01:43:51] That's a no, no, no, no Big nope.

John Dehlin [01:43:54] Okay. Melissa and Joanna, what about you? What about you both?

Joanna Fisher [01:43:57] Joanna, that was something. My whole life, that inside of me was ick, but it was, you know, the heavenly law. No, I would not. I could not share my man. Just couldn't.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:44:09] Will not.

Joanna Fisher [01:44:11] I don't care if I go to hell. In the end, at least I have him here on earth by myself.

John Dehlin [01:44:17] So that's a.

Jen Camp [01:44:18] That's a hard no.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] It's a. It's a. It's a big no for. For. For Joanna. Is that right? All right, Melissa, your turn. You could. You could save. You can save polygamy. This is your chance, Melissa. You can save it.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:44:30] Yeah. Absolutely not. There is no way. And even as an active member, I remember thinking that because I still believed that there was going to be polygamy on the other side. So even though we didn't practice it on this earth, there was a chance on the other side. And I still remember being like, there's no way, like, on the other side. If that was asked of me, like, I'm with Joanna, I'd be sent to hell over living in the celestial kingdom and having. Yeah. Having sister wives. No way.

John Dehlin [01:44:58] I'm gonna. I'm gonna drive this home. This point home, just a little bit obnoxiously more. And I'm gonna ask an obvious question, but I want. I want you guys to give, like, an honest, straightforward answer that's going to be largely obvious. What's wrong with polygamy? Why not? What's wrong with it? What's wrong with it? What's wrong with polygamy? Discuss.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:45:21] Should I take this one?

Jen Camp [01:45:22] Yeah, you take this one, Joanna.

John Dehlin [01:45:23] All three of you. What's wrong with it?

Jen Camp [01:45:24] You start, Joanna.

Joanna Fisher [01:45:26] The women have no say in every single polygamist, cult, or religious belief. The men have complete control. They can have as many women as they want. But if a woman sleeps with more than one man, she is considered a harlot or a whore. It is very patriarchal, and the children do not get the proper. Like, there is so many kids, and the kids raise the kids. It's just. It's not a healthy family dynamic. Polygamy)) is not healthy for children.

John Dehlin [01:45:55] Okay, Melissa?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:45:58] Oh, goodness.

Joanna Fisher [01:46:01] Yeah.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:46:02] I mean, I agree with everything that Joanna said. I think that even more than it actually being polygamy itself, it's all of the things that come with polygamy. You know, I know there's people who have polyamorous relationships and stuff, but for some reason, when it comes to religious polygamy, it always comes down to the power of a man over a woman. It is never a consensual decision in any way. And, I mean, even if they say that it might be because that's the way they were raised, you actually don't have the type of consent that people think of. Right. And so, no, it's. It causes so many problems beyond the actual marriage to more than one woman. It goes so much deeper than that. And those are all things that you just can't ignore. Like she said, not healthy for anybody involved, but especially the women and the children that are being raised to be that way. And polygamy especially is very big on the fact that a woman's. All of her value is in having children. And that contains so many problems, because if women can't have children, then it's dishonorable if they're having them as frequently as what they are in the flds. That poses huge health risks and isn't healthy for a woman's body either. So there's so much more than just the I don't want to share my man part to polygamy. It's everything that comes with it that is unacceptable and not okay.

Jen Camp [01:47:38] Amen. No, I agree with everything they've said. I just don't. I even forgot what the main question was.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] Like, what's wrong with polygamy?

Jen Camp [01:47:50] What's wrong? That. Yeah, okay. Oh, it's all about the man in every way. I. I don't know how else to put it. There's nothing for the woman. And I know there's going to be people in this that would say differently, but they're in it. And I. I don't know if they have the critical thinking part of it to be able to, you know, look at it objectively, but it's just. It's all about the man. It's. It's about. About the man in every way. It's about the man in. In sex, in control, in family structure, in decisions, in money, in, you know, what's important, who the kids go to, what the kids do, where, say, like, I don't. There's so much that goes along with just polygamy, especially within, within the FLDS and lds that I've come to find in my research is that all goes together. Like, this all goes together. You can't live polygamy healthy within these two religions. Even if someone wants to argue with me of polygamy being okay in a different setting, like within these religions removes a woman from being human and being over her own desires needs agency. There's so much that goes along with it within these religions, even thinking polygamy in the eternal aspect, because according to the. The LDS mainstream right now, like, we can't even talk about Heavenly Mother. We can't pray to her. We, like the prophets, somehow have no talking ability to God about our mothers, you know, up there. And so even in the eternal realm, we're still silenced. We're still only, you know, birthing out these spirit children for the rest of all eternity and time as the men get to create these worlds that, you know, we'll have our spirit children inhabit with new bodies and that, you know, all these things. And they'll be praised and, like, prayed to and they get to talk to their children. And there's. There's this, like, bond with, you know, God and them. And. And we're just silenced. We're just silenced. We're just removed from the picture. And. And there's nothing like, how did I believe this for so long? Like, it tears my heart. It really does hurt my part. It tears my heart for the people, the women that are still in the church that want that bond so bad, because I remember wanting that when I was in and it. To think that way, to think that God would remove you from your children is like, hell. Like, who would do that? Like, I just. It just doesn't make sense to like, in any way you look at it now and it. And polygamy is attached to that. That's every. That's every God with all of his wives. That's the celestial thing that is talked about in the religion. It's all of that. It's so much. It's so much. And it's so wrong within these two religions, how it's set up. And I don't. I could go on and on and give you facts and things to look at and podcasts to watch, but just, you know, just find out for yourself. That's all. I would say. And I'm saying this with love to you all, but it's to remove women from their children in an eternal sense.

Joanna Fisher [01:52:05] And you're talking about.

John Dehlin [01:52:06] You're talking about the idea that. That Mormons can't pray to mother in heaven and they don't know her name. Is that what you mean by removing children?

Jen Camp [01:52:14] Yeah, there's no communication with children in an eternal aspect. You're just kind of gone forever after you die. You're gone forever in a polygamous relationship with lots of sister wives and one male God. And then here on the earth, it's all the other things that we've all talked about before and. Sorry, that's another gen rant for you today on Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [01:52:34] We love generous. Okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask two questions. Believe it or not, I once heard an argument, kind of a feminist argument for polygamy. And I think it came out of a religious motivation to come up with, to try and look progressive. But there. There were two arguments that were made, and I want to see what Melissa, Joanna, and Jen think about each of these allegedly feminist arguments about polygamy. Feminist argument for polygamy, Number one is that men have stronger libidos than women. And so women. Women don't have the libidos that men do. And so one of the benefits of polygamy is that a man can have his needs met fully. And then women, because they have less of a libido, they get their needs met as well. They're not having his sex as often as the men as the man, but. But they're getting it as much as they. As they need. I know that's. I mean, I know People might. But that's one argument I've heard any. Any response to that my face is

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:53:45] like, not hiding anything off the ground and say, I cannot even believe that someone would say that. I am, like, personally offended that someone would dare try. Try to guess what my sexuality is like.

Joanna Fisher [01:54:01] You mean your libido.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:54:02] You mean I can keep up with my husband.

John Dehlin [01:54:04] You mean your libido. You mean your libido, right?

Joanna Fisher [01:54:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:54:08] That my. Yeah, that my libido is drive.

Joanna Fisher [01:54:11] Whatever you call it. Yeah.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:54:12] That my libido isn't enough for a man or any man or my husband or the fact that someone would make a blanket statement like that about women and try to claim that women don't have the same libido or that we don't have the same needs is like, I just can't even believe someone would

Joanna Fisher [01:54:29] try to say that I'm in that same boat. Like, I. No offense, I've been with people where I want it more than they did. Just saying. So to that argument. I think someone just. I mean, I think every individual is different. Every woman has a different sex drive. And I believe that for men as well. So, no, I do not agree with that statement at all.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:54:49] So you find. You find a mate that matches your libido. Yes. In order to be. I mean, I'm not saying that's how it's always going to be, but I'm just saying, like, the idea that you're just gonna not like. I don't know. Sorry, go ahead, Jen. I can't even with this question.

Jen Camp [01:55:06] Yeah. I would say the possibility of maybe that statement coming from a man that doesn't know how to please a woman, maybe.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:55:17] Yes.

Joanna Fisher [01:55:18] Thank you. Yeah. I mean.

Jen Camp [01:55:21] Yeah. So I would have to say a hard no on that one. In my experience.

John Dehlin [01:55:28] Yeah.

Jen Camp [01:55:29] Okay. I would say my husband and I are both great.

John Dehlin [01:55:33] Very compatible.

Jen Camp [01:55:34] Very compatible.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] Okay.

Jen Camp [01:55:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:36] All right.

Joanna Fisher [01:55:36] All right.

John Dehlin [01:55:37] Thanks for being good sports about that. The other. The other. And I think it's important to dispel stereotypes. That's why bringing them up.

Jen Camp [01:55:43] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:55:44] The second stereotype or feminist argument for polygamy that I've heard is if it's going to be that someone has to stay home and take care of the kids, and if it's going to be that. That generally speaking, the man has the profession that having multiple women at home allows you to, number one, have built in friends that are there, but it also allows division of labor in the home so that different people can take responsibilities and that maybe even some of the sister Wives can be career women too. So, so it can give either make it so the, the, you know, each of the sister wives has less household or, or children chores overall and or more ability to have extra hobbies or even pursue careers because there's other women around to do the work. Arguments about that, go ahead.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:56:50] I was like, no, sorry, I have to go. My husband is my partner and he's the one who shares those responsibilities with me. And household responsibilities belong to a household. And if you are with a partner who believes in that, and I am very lucky to be married to someone like that. Our household responsibilities belong to both of us. And I do stay at home with our children and his job during the day may be one thing. And my job is to make sure that our kids are happy and healthy and that does not include the household chores. Those are things that we share together and he is my partner in that and I don't need another wife to be the one to do that for me. Go ahead, Joy.

Joanna Fisher [01:57:32] I'll say if that was the case, like in any polygamy experience, you might have as many children as possible. Correct. So all of the women are having 13 kids in my experience. Tell me in any shape or form. I don't care how many women there are. How are you going to be able to make that a healthy family dynamic?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [01:57:56] That's a good point.

Joanna Fisher [01:57:57] Like how can someone go out and be a career woman if they have 13 kids of their own and the other mom also has 13 kids? That's when the children raise the children and that's how polygamy is.

John Dehlin [01:58:10] Powerful. Powerful. Joanna, anything you want to add to that, Jen, or is that kind of COVID for you?

Jen Camp [01:58:17] Yeah, that was powerful. I think we should stop on Joanna's statement there.

John Dehlin [01:58:22] Podcast over. No way.

Jen Camp [01:58:23] We've got more.

John Dehlin [01:58:26] That was purple. Joanna, let me just ask you really quickly. Can you speak to the relationship between sister wives is. Some might want to romanticize the fact that you've got built in best friends that are, you know, other women in the home. I imagine that sometimes the sister wives can really get along and be a good support to each other. I imagine other things might be true sometimes as well. Do you want to speak to, you know, the idea of multiple women living in the home together, sharing one man and what, what the dynamics can also be.

Family Dynamics Inside Polygamous Households

Joanna Fisher [01:59:02] Do you want dynamics and opinions or do you want my experience?

John Dehlin [01:59:06] Yeah, your experience. Both. Both. Start with your experience. Start with your experience.

Joanna Fisher [01:59:12] In my experience, no, there was always jealousies. There was always one. One's opinion meant More than the others. One's children were considered a little bit better than the other mothers. And my experience, it is different as well. Like, I am from a different father than the rest of the siblings because my mom's husband was kicked out and she remarried her sister's husband. So I don't know. I've heard of family dynamics where they were all happy and loved each other, but then you talk to actual, like, older siblings in that family, and it was like, no, behind closed doors, people did not get along. So in my experience, no, it's. It's not loving. It's not. There's always. I guess they always have roles to play. Some are higher than others, and it creates very much jealousy and drama. And then the children get to experience it.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] In parents, you hear about like a favorite wife kind of deal. And I also want to bring you in, Sam, because you, you experienced multiple mothers in the home. Sam, what, what. Is there anything you want to add about the dynamic between sister wives? And is. Is this idea of a favorite wife more common than not?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:00:28] Well, as a child within this polygamous family, of course, my assumption was that my mother was the favorite. Right? Of course. But. But no, they're. That I actually kind of felt that way, to be honest. I felt that my mother would go on trips with my father and was kind of the one preparing his special meal when he got home from work. So I did kind of have that feeling. Oh, my mom's the favorite. I can't speak for my other siblings, but I don't remember any of them ever coming to me and trying to suggest otherwise. But I will say for the wife going into the family, it's one thing, but for the, for the wives that are already there, there have been extreme jealousy issues within the families, even within the FLDS church where the wives are supposed to just keep sweet obey no matter what. For example, my own mother went father because she is his second wife. When, when he took on his third wife, I was told those stories that, I mean, she almost just left. She almost just took her kids, took her things and walked out the door because she couldn't handle the jealousy aspect there because there's a new wife, fresh meat, so to speak. And. And of course, your husband is now spending a lot of time with this new wife as well. And so it definitely creates some drama and some issues.

Joanna Fisher [02:01:54] Yeah, in my experience, my mother was not the favorite wife, but then again, she also came from a family where she used to be the only wife and she was the mom. So it was very difficult for her, but she definitely was not the favorite. So I. I saw that in a lot of families.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:02:09] Okay, so you kind of felt the opposite in your situation. Okay, yeah.

Joanna Fisher [02:02:13] It goes both ways, but every family is different. You have to. That's something you have to remember in the FLDS is every single family is unique.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:02:21] Very true, Very true.

John Dehlin [02:02:24] Okay, that's. That's super helpful. All right, so we. We haven't even gotten to comparing Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs as it relates to their practice of polygamy. And just really quickly, Melissa, what were you taught about Joseph Smith's polygamy in all of your years in the church?

What Members Were Taught About Joseph Smith's Polygamy))

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:02:48] Okay, let me think back to before I learned anything. I was taught that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy because it was something that God commanded, that it was so, so, so hard for him to do that, that he didn't want to do it. With every fiber of his being, he didn't want to do it. And he tried multiple times to say no to the Lord and that he was going to do it until the Lord threatened him with his life if he did not fulfill what God intended with polygamy, that it was something that was always meant for the salvation of the women, that there was no sexual relationships with the other wives. It was purely for their salvational purposes. And, yeah, I guess that kind of. Those are the main things.

John Dehlin [02:03:38] And, Melissa, I'm going to say you're a bit of an exception to the rule in my experience, because I went 45 years in the Mormon Church and literally never once in any meeting, ever in any general conference, in any Sunday school, in any seminary class, in any BYU religion class, in any elders quorum ever, was there ever any mention or by my parents or anyone that I knew, any friend, any leader. There was never once any mention of Joseph Smith being a polygamist at all. In my entire Mormon upbringing, Brigham Young was a polygamist. But there was no mention of Joseph Smith and certainly no mention of any of his wives. And that is the. That's the experience that I believe, even up until the past, you know, few years, and maybe even to this day, is the most common experience within LDS Church members. Jen, I want to. I want to give you a chance to say what you were taught about Joseph Smith's polygamy in your years as a member.

Jen Camp [02:04:46] Yeah, so I was taught that there was Joseph and Emma, and I was. I only heard about Joseph and Emma until I'd probably say I was, like,

John Dehlin [02:05:03] 40 for the first 40 years.

Jen Camp [02:05:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:07] You never heard anything Other than Joseph.

Jen Camp [02:05:08] No, no. I knew that there was polygamy. I was taught that there was polygamy Coming over to Utah, that they, like, there were so many women and, like, men in, like, all the attacks on the LDS religion, men had died. And so there was a lot of women, and they just needed, like, protection and someone to watch over them on their trip over to Utah. And so they would be sealed to these men, like just eternally. Like, eternally sealed to them. No marital relations with them, but they were sealed to them, and they brought them over to Utah and then they kind of took care of them until they died. Kind of story. Yeah, that's what I was told about polygamy. And then the ones that, like, when the prophet said we no longer practice polygamy, that the ones that rebelled and still wanted to do polygamy moved and they formed the flds. So that's kind of where, like, the story. The condensed version of the story I was told about Joseph and his. Yeah, polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:06:22] Yeah. Perfect. And were any of. Were any of you. Did any of you ever hear a story in church or a mention in church of any of Joseph Smith's wives?

Jen Camp [02:06:36] No.

John Dehlin [02:06:37] Melissa. Oh, sorry. We muted you guys. Melissa.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:06:42] No worries. Not in church. That I remember. All of the stuff that I learned was all in seminary. In seminary. They addressed it when we went over the Doctrine and Covenant. Obviously

John Dehlin [02:06:56] they mentioned his wives and named some of the. Some of his wives.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:06:59] Oh, sorry. Doing names. No, I don't remember any names in particular, just that he had multiple wives.

John Dehlin [02:07:07] Jen?

Joanna Fisher [02:07:08] No.

John Dehlin [02:07:09] Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I think, you know, I think at least in. In my generation's case, we were. All that. That information was held. Was withheld from us.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:07:19] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] And we were. We were taught that when there was polygamy, it's because there were way too many women on the frontier and not enough men, and God needed a way to have the women have husbands, and so that's why we did polygamy. Yeah.

Jen Camp [02:07:33] Yeah.

Comparing the Polygamy)) of Jeffs and Smith

John Dehlin [02:07:34] Okay, so let's now do a contest. Who was the better polygamist, Joseph Smith or Warren Jeffs? So, Jen. Jen and Melissa, what's your understanding of how man many wives Joseph Smith actually did have? Melissa, you go first. What's your understanding?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:07:51] Oh, I wanted to say it was in the 30s or 40s, but I don't. That's my guess.

John Dehlin [02:07:58] Melissa's saying somewhere between 30 and 40. Jen, what's your. What's your guess?

Jen Camp [02:08:02] Like in knowledge now?

John Dehlin [02:08:03] Yeah.

Jen Camp [02:08:04] Oh, I'd guess 36.

John Dehlin [02:08:05] Okay. Yeah. They put numbers I think somewhere between 34 and. And 40.

Jen Camp [02:08:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:10] So I think you're both right. Ding, ding, ding. A plus. A plus for Melissa and. And Jen. Okay, Sam and Joanna, what's your understanding of how many wives to this date Warren Jeffs has?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:08:25] Well, if it's a competition between Warren and Joseph Smith, Warren won because I. I was told that at his peak, he had up to 80 wives. That's what I was told.

Joanna Fisher [02:08:34] 82 is what I was told.

John Dehlin [02:08:36] Okay. Yeah. And even Brigham Young, I think, had in the 50s, if I remember. Right. So Warren Jeffs is a. Is a ninja black belt level polygamist.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:08:47] It was something Warren Jeff's out.

John Dehlin [02:08:50] Joseph's Joseph Smith, basically. Is that fair to say?

Jen Camp [02:08:54] Well, he was kicking out all those men.

John Dehlin [02:08:56] Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:08:57] I. I would just point out, speaking of Warren Jeffs and all of that, you're asking if polygamy, if. If Melissa or Jan had heard about Joseph's wives in the flds. That was a topic that was talked about all the time because that was a way to justify what they were doing. Joseph himself did it. That's all we're doing. We're doing the same things he did. This is what he taught. This is the gospel restored to the earth. So it was talked about all the time in my household.

John Dehlin [02:09:27] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [02:09:27] I don't ever remember them giving us a number of how many wives Joseph Smith had, because I. We heard that he had some that were not even mentioned or on record, but.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:09:36] Right. I don't remember a specific number per se, but I do remember his several wives talked about, and I do remember several of those names being thrown around.

John Dehlin [02:09:45] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [02:09:46] Yes.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:09:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:47] Yeah. All right. And even if. Even if Warren out. Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith in terms of 82 versus 34 or whatever, Joseph's no slouch.

Jen Camp [02:09:57] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [02:09:59] He's no slouch.

Jen Camp [02:10:00] No.

John Dehlin [02:10:00] Like he deserves some polygamous props, Right. Yeah, I think so. Right, Melissa? Right.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:10:06] Well, I mean, he founded it, so you got to give him. He gets, like an extra. An extra bunch of points for that. Bonus points, for sure. For not only founding it, but. Yeah. For revealing it the way that it was so that it continued this long. I mean, like I said, I think he gets Warren's points in addition, because Warren still did what he did because of what Joseph Smith did.

John Dehlin [02:10:31] Basically. Joseph's the og, Right?

Jen Camp [02:10:33] Right.

John Dehlin [02:10:33] That's what you're saying.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:10:34] He is the og.

John Dehlin [02:10:35] He's a polygamist og. Okay, next question. Melissa and Jen, what's your understanding as to Joseph marrying underaged women? Melissa you go first.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:10:48] My understanding now or what I was raised.

John Dehlin [02:10:51] We're doing now. We're doing now.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:10:54] Yeah. So obviously Fanny Augur, but then definitely when I lose her name, Kimball. Right.

John Dehlin [02:11:03] Helen Markimbell.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:11:04] Okay, I'm glad I'm keeping, keeping it in my head. It's been a while since my original faith journey and looking up all this. But what about story?

John Dehlin [02:11:14] What about, what about Helena Kimball?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:11:16] Oh, the fact that she was 14 years old and the fact that she was told that she was going to be destroyed and that Joseph Smith was going to be destroyed if she didn't become one of his wives and that her family's eternal salvation depended on it. And when I was reading through that story, you know, I come across a story and in the beginning of our faith journey and it's also mentioned in their topic essays in the LDS because of course I was only searching on lds.org for all of my answers. And I remember reading that and they said she was just shy of 15. And I was like, that's a really sly way of not wanting to say she was 14 years old. But throughout that story, it reminded me so much of the FLDS because I thought, oh my goodness, a 14 year old who is told that the salvation of her family is dependent on marrying an older man and that he's going to be destroyed or, you know, his priesthood, whatever you want to call it, that he would be destroyed and that she would be destroyed if she did not consent to it. And so, yeah, that, that was my main understanding of his underage wives. And Fanny, who obviously was kind of out of the picture before the revelation and before he continued on practicing plural marriage. The top of my head, I don't know if there were more underage girls beyond that. I, I don't know as many details. That was enough evidence for me at the time to be like, nah, that's messed up.

John Dehlin [02:12:44] Jen, what's your understanding of, like, how, how frequently, how many of Joseph's wives were kind of teenagers or underage?

Jen Camp [02:12:55] I, I'm not recalling because I know I have a document on this because I was very, I think me and Melissa are the same person. I think we went through the same faith crisis because everything she says, I pretty much did too. But I don't know, off the top of my head, I'm thinking 11.

John Dehlin [02:13:12] Yeah, that's, that's my understanding. Somewhere around 10, 10 or somewhere around 10 teenage brides, at least two, as I understand it, were 14, but there were, there were others that were, you know, 15, 16.

Jen Camp [02:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:25] You know, that, that sort of age.

Jen Camp [02:13:27] If you want to. What I would tell you, like I have quotes here, but I, I don't know if I want to go, go there because I can take a long time on that and maybe we can do another podcast about, about that. But Helen Kimball, if you, she kept immaculate journals and go back and read them and your heart will be like twisted out of your chest. They're just heartbreaking. And the apologists always say, oh well, she, at the end of her life, she said how great it was and how, how wonderful it was. And what I would say is Elizabeth Smart, it only took her nine months. So a 14 year old girl, they were both 14. And if it took Elizabeth Smart only nine months to stand up for her rapist and the person that stole her from her family. I don't, I don't condemn or you know, have any hard feelings against Helen Kimball for what she said when she was older. If you read her journals from the time she was 14 when this happened, you will never look at polygamy the same again. So that's what I would suggest that you all do. Her journals are available online and you can read right from them. So I'd suggest you do that.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] Yeah, there's a really good graphic. There's a, there's a really good graphic. Just if you, if you were to Google the wives of Joseph Smith, everybody. And I can actually try and share it on the screen just to give you a sense for, for what it looks like. But, but there's, here it is, it's a, it's a really cool graphic and it goes into detail about ages and you know, it, it, it lists, you know, there's, there's a 16 year old, a 14 year old, 17 year old. Yeah. And then it talks also about some of the other dynamics as well. I just will include a link to that in the show notes. But I, but I think that's a really important graphic. Okay, so we all were aghast when

Jen Camp [02:15:51] we think Melissa wants to say something.

John Dehlin [02:15:52] Oh, Melissa, yes, please jump in. For sure.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:15:56] So sorry, I just wanted to kind of piggyback off of Jen. Just one quick comment. Yes, Jen, we are the same person, I feel like, but. And Jen, you could probably tell me if I'm wrong, but when you were talking about Helen, Mark Kimball's journal, if I remember right, it was her that she, you know, she kind of like fought against it and they kind of had to keep her in the closet about the fact that she was a plural wife of his because of her age. And at one point she became sick and was so deathly ill she thought she was going to die. And she prayed to God that if he would heal her, that she would never say anything negative about polygamy again. And I can't remember if it was her, if it was a different plural wife, but I remember reading that journal entry and being like, this is how apologists say, you know, and she never did. And she continued the rest of her life saying that polygamy was good. And I thought, what kind of constraint is that being put under if you believe that your only reason you were healed, and then you're for the rest of your life dedicated to saying that something is good that you don't actually believe, but you were forced to because of a circumstance having to do with health and you believing that God saved your health to stand up for that. So those are the type of situations I think happen a lot with the FLDS as well. You know, you hear Marianne Jessup, they say, oh, the 12 year old girl, she wanted to. To be married. She said how badly she wanted to marry Warren. And even at this point, she's still out there. She may say that it was a great decision, that she loves it, but how much can we trust that perspective without knowing the full story of how they came to that dedication to the polygamy and the kind of constraint they were put under, the kind of pressure they were put under. And when you see the full story, like Jen said, it's absolutely heartbreaking. And anybody who watched Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey can know how heartbreaking when you hear that a 12 year old says that, that they want to be married to him. And any person, any adult that tries to tell me that Marianne really feels that way, that she really believes that with all her heart and that we should leave that poor child alone, because she says that in that moment. I can't imagine a single adult saying that. And that needs to be taken into account when we look at these other cases of polygamy as well, that we don't know the full story. And if we did, we would be hoping that they would be wanting to protect those children as well.

John Dehlin [02:18:26] Beautiful.

Jen Camp [02:18:26] Yeah, that was beautiful, Melissa. And you're correct, it was Helen.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] I want to send this to Sam and Joanna because as skilled as Joseph was at marrying teenage brides, Warren, Warren has him beat. But I was so disturbed in the Keep Sweet when, during the trial, they're trying to blame the teenage girls, the underage girls, as wanting it. And that was the legal defense that they wanted it. But. But, yeah. The most disturbing part of Keep Sweet for me was the videos and the. And the pictures and the coverage of the young girls that Warren married. So, Sam and Joanna, do you guys want to take over and talk about how Warren took marriage of underage girls to a whole new level?

Joanna Fisher [02:19:17] That's something I wanted to bring up is, like, people say, you know, they wanted it, but what people fail to realize is this was happening six generations back. Like, we were taught from the time we were born that that was our salvation. Like, it was more of a saving grace to get married no matter what age you were, because that was your destiny. That was your calling. And, like, people will be like, that's crazy. Like, you won't think that way. And it was weird because, like, I personally, When I was 6, I had a really, like, icky, rebellious, like, feeling about it. But if I even spoke that, who knows? Like, they were like, even kids can get kicked out. You can go out and live with some strange family if you want to doubt the prophet. So, like, you say that because. And it. It doesn't feel like force to some of these girls. It does. Especially if you are interested in another man. You don't end up with that other man. I remember having early crushes and praying that Warren would marry me to that person and wanting to get married at a young age, but. And you think you're an adult, but you're not. But, like, it's just in your mind. There is no other way. So it's not really. I wouldn't say, like, if you had other options, would you choose that? If Marianne knew about, like, going to high school and having a normal life and falling in love, if she knew there was another option, do you think she would have made that choice?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:20:40] Oh, man. I. I witnessed some of my sisters that after they got the phone call or. Or went into father's office to talk about the fact that they had been selected to be married off to a man. And both of them coming out shaking, pale and crying all the same time. And nothing I could do, nothing my father could do. I mean, who in our minds who can stand up against God's word? And that's. That's all I can say about that.

Joanna Fisher [02:21:16] Yeah. And it was your salvation. And like I said, I. I always feared about getting married to some old guy at a young age. That was a huge fear. But at the same time, I wasn't allowed to voice that fear. Or even feeling that fear made me feel guilty because that was bad to have Those fears.

John Dehlin [02:21:34] Yeah. For me, one of the creepiest moments of the video was to see some of these 80 year old men, you know, pictures of Warren or even his dad rulin kissing these 12 year old girls and seeing the photos of these 12 to 13 year old girls with, with babies.

Jen Camp [02:21:52] Yeah, I actually started like, I started dry heaving. It was so bad, you guys. Like I'm watching the pictures come up on the, on the screen and it physically, like when I say I was sick, it really made me sick. It made my heart sick. It made my stomach sick. Like I couldn't. I had to close my eyes when the pictures came on. And then when they started talking about out, which I'm sure we'll get to at some point, the young girl in the temple that was recorded, like, like I, oh my. Like still, even right now I'm having a hard time like thinking about them. Yeah, like that's tough. That, that's tough. That's. No way you look at that. Can that be from God? Like in no way.

The Most Disturbing Aspects of FLDS Practice

John Dehlin [02:22:40] Let's go ahead and talk about that because that's something that I didn't have a full understanding of. And it's for sure the most disturbing part of the entire movie. I, I believe they're called Celestial sessions. Is that what they're called? Heavenly Sessions? Sam and Joanna, would you, would you all mind and, and listeners and viewers, I'm just going to warn you, this is the most disturbing part. We're going to give a warning. If you've got kids listening, if you're sensitive to it, matters of rape or trauma or child abuse, this is the time to practice self care to pause, to turn this off or to maybe monitor who's listening. But, but Sam and Joanna, would you mind, would you mind talking about this part of the documentary?

Joanna Fisher [02:23:28] This one is going to be hard for me. I guess the scariest part for me is they teach you, you know, they don't teach you anything about sex, like safety. They don't even teach you how it is. And so like when you like that dynamic, I guess like that was the scariest part for me is like, you know, we had animals and I kind of felt like it was instinct for me how things worked. But I had a sister that was like, how does it work? There were some girls that thought you got pregnant from kissing. So you go from that to like marrying someone and then having these heavenly sessions. And I don't know if you watched the preaching evil documentary, but if you

John Dehlin [02:24:10] don't mind, for those who haven't watched it, can you just tell our viewers and listeners just at a basic level what a heavenly session was and then continue with whatever you're saying?

Joanna Fisher [02:24:20] So in my understanding, like, we didn't get taught about that. That was something Warren had with his wives. And it was. It was done sexually. And there was multiple women in the room, to my understanding. And it was kind of a way of bringing him. He would say he would get punished for the sins of the people and they would bring him back. But for girls, like, I don't know how they would go through with that, because, like I said, we weren't taught that. So, like, for us, it's like a shock to learn about that and be like, okay, but, like, you have no other experience to say that's wrong. Like, in your opinion, you just go with it because that's what you're taught.

John Dehlin [02:24:58] So tell me if I'm right, that. That in the temple, at the. At the highest level of the temple, there's a bed, and when Warren would take a new child bride, 12 years old, whatever, there would be women around, and he would sexually abuse that child on the bed in the temple with people watching. Am I right? Am I wrong? Did I get that wrong?

Joanna Fisher [02:25:24] So they were other wives of his.

Jen Camp [02:25:28] Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:25:28] So sister wives.

Joanna Fisher [02:25:29] Yes. And in my understanding, I've never experienced. And they didn't teach this, let alone. We didn't know this until we. After we were out, like, we had no idea this was going on. So even, like, still, I don't know, like, we had no Internet. We had, you know. And so in my experience, there was other women that he had selected. And I. I don't know exactly what he did.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:25:49] From what we have seen from Sam and I watched a documentary called Preaching Evil with Naomi. Jess, who is one of Warren's wives and was the scribe, and she didn't go into explicit detail as to what happened. But from my understanding, too, these did not start in the temple. They actually started heavenly sessions just in Warren's bedroom. So it wasn't strictly and purely in the temple. From the recording, obviously, that one was a heavenly session that. That was in the temple later with Marianne, but from the understanding of what she explained, because, again, no one in the flds outside of his wives knew what was happening. But Naomi described it as they all circled around him on his bed and they all derobed, and then he asked different sexual favors of them, for them to revive him out of his atoning for the sins of the people so he would be close to death, and then they would Sexually arouse him back to life. And from what she said, it was not only two and with Warren, but with one another as well. So that's, I mean like I said again, I hope that's okay that I explained it. But we're going off of what Naomi just said.

Joanna Fisher [02:27:06] But for me like my mind doesn't even fathom so I'm like having a hard time even understanding this because he was God. He, you know, and now I obviously do not believe that in any form but it's just, it's. My mind's still trying to catch up personally to all these truths that are coming out.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:27:23] Yep. And I agree. I mean I, I only know what we've seen in these recent documentaries or what some of the people that were involved in these so called heavenly sessions were, were doing because obviously we never heard about any of this stuff as a member of the FLDS community. It was very well kept secret. But. But yes, obviously very disgusting things that he had going on. Like Melissa said, not only for him but things that he could just sit there and watch that the other women would do to each other.

John Dehlin [02:27:58] Yeah. Super disturbing and it, and it makes Joseph look less, a lot less bad.

Jen Camp [02:28:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:07] Still horrible. But that's just like it's. Yeah.

Jen Camp [02:28:12] It's like unthinkable like yeah, I just like who would even think that? And then, and then it's compounded and by it being 12 like a 12 year old girl. 12 and it's hard for me to understand a 12 year old girl being on that bed or in that room even with all those women and everyone derobing and him making her touch him or him touching her or, or some accounts being raped on the bed. Like I like any of that is so horrifying in every way that like I don't even know what to say. Like there's no words like available to say how wrong, how wrong that is. And then that they're so indoctrinated that not even the women would say anything. And it just breaks my heart. It does.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:29:30] I don't know.

Jen Camp [02:29:31] This is so hard for me the subject but it's just so hard to understand that that's how bad it was. Like that's how bad it got to. Not only to none of his 80 something wife said anything like. And I don't know, maybe it's only a select 12 that got to do this with him or something but. But still like I don't know, it's just so hard for me. That was so disturbing to me that it still is disturbing to me. Just thinking about it, even knowing and, and hearing that before when I was trying to look more into that to make sure that, you know, as far as we know, that's really what happened. And it's just so, so sad.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:30:20] And don't. And not to forget as well that he was forcing one of his wives, Naomi, to either record these sessions or write down exactly what's happening. He wanted record of this stuff. He didn't want to just experience in that moment. He wanted to keep record of it.

John Dehlin [02:30:44] Well, I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry for bringing it up. I mean, I'm not sorry for bringing it up, but I. It's such a difficult thing. Joanna, Melissa, Jen specifically. This is a very triggering and just heart wrenching topic and sickening and violent. And I'm sad that we have to be talking about it. And I'm sad that you all have to be talking about it.

Jen Camp [02:31:11] Yeah, there's nothing, definitely nothing heavenly or from heaven about those sessions.

John Dehlin [02:31:23] Yeah. Yeah. Just love to the victims.

Jen Camp [02:31:27] Yeah, definitely. And I hope, my hope is that when he hopefully passes away and maybe some outside world can get in there somehow that, or maybe, maybe even when he's been in prison, hopefully this has stopped. Hopefully this isn't going on still right now as we sit here and talk about this. Hopefully something can happen. Hopefully we can all figure out how to help the victims that need help right now to heal. I just, I guess that's where my heart is with them.

John Dehlin [02:32:13] Yeah. It's probably worth mentioning that there are incredible non profits that exist to help victims of fundamentalist polygamy. One that I'm aware of is called holding out help. Sam and Melissa, are you all aware of non profits that are trying to help heal these broken lives?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:32:38] Yeah, that's actually the one that we typically recommend is holding out help.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:32:41] It's the main one we know of.

John Dehlin [02:32:45] All right, well, we'll make sure and include holding out help in the show notes. And again, we're sorry to our viewers that we have to be so graphic, but. Melissa, I'm sorry. Joanne, is there anything else you wanted to share? I know that this is particularly emotional

Joanna Fisher [02:33:01] for you, I'm sure I just like, I appreciate, like, I know these are hard to talk about, but I feel like bringing awareness helps more people be able to speak up. Like, I never experienced anything like that personally. Thank, thank God for that. But just like the fear of like, you know, that was a possibility I think is huge. But I think another thing like bring light on is like yeah. There was no knowledge of this. And there is even people still believing people still there. They don't know this going on because they're directed not to look it up. Like, even for me, like, I didn't know why he was in jail. And I think that's something that we need to recognize when we look at these people and not judge them for following a leader like that, because they're oblivious to a lot of that. They are.

Jen Camp [02:33:56] Yeah, yeah,

John Dehlin [02:33:59] yeah. And I'm sure there's going to be believing Mormons and even progressive Mormons who get mad at me saying this, but Joseph Smith started this. He's the one that started marrying, not just having polygamy, but marrying teenagers and underage girls. And Warren was only excelling at what he knew Joseph Smith did. He just took it to another level. But it started. It started with Joseph Smith. Am I being unfair?

Jen Camp [02:34:33] Yeah, that's exactly where it started. So.

Polygamy)) Doctrines and Coercive Control

John Dehlin [02:34:40] All right, well, there's a couple more just really quick things about polygamy that we wanted to just run by, and some of these, I actually don't know the FLDS's position on it. So, in terms of marrying other living men's wives, one of the most troubling things about many people's faith crisis, which actually doesn't make sense, many people are troubled by polyandry. Polyandry is. Is. Is when Joseph Smith is marrying women who are already married to other living men, and feminists, and just women in general, remind us that we shouldn't be more revolted by polyandry than we should polygamy. It's all revolting. And it's. It's not more revolting that a woman would get to have sex with multiple men. So. So having said that, I think the reason why many people find that revolting is because it's one thing for Joseph to take on multiple women and take on underage girls. It makes no sense that he would. If angels are commanding him to take these wives, and even if he's doing it to make. To raise a righteous seed or to have lots of posterity, that still doesn't make sense. But that's a justification. Why in heaven's name would he need to take the wives away from. From women who are already married to other men. And it turns out that Joseph Smith married at least 10 to 12 women who were already married to living men, and that's called polyandry. And it makes no sense. I'm not going to say it's more sickening than just regular old polygamy but that's what Joseph Smith did. And something that I don't have any understanding for is whether Warren Jeffs actually married women who were already married to other men. Whether Warren Jeffs practice, practiced polyandry. And I'm wondering if Sam or Joanna even know.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:36:51] All I know for sure is that he would force men out of the community and then he would either marry some of these women himself or he would force other men or force these women to marry other men. So he had the power. And I know some people may say that Joseph Smith forced men on missions and then married their wives. So I guess in a sense that's a similar similarity there. But. But he had the power to get rid of man and then do what he wanted with the wives.

Joanna Fisher [02:37:20] Yeah, with my dad he was, he was sent to go and then she remarried and she was still legally married to him up until I think 2017, 2018 or something.

John Dehlin [02:37:30] So explain, explain that one more time what happened with, with your dad and mom?

Joanna Fisher [02:37:35] So with my real dad, he got kicked out. He was sent to what they call sent on repentance. And she remarried, but she was still legally married to my birth dad.

John Dehlin [02:37:46] And she married who again?

Joanna Fisher [02:37:48] Her sister's husband as a third wife.

John Dehlin [02:37:50] Yeah. So it's, it's fair to say that that that pernicious practice of reassigning women to other men, it directly flows to Joseph's practice of polyandry. Because once Joseph crossed that line of basically saying send you on mission, I'm going to now get sealed to your wife while you're on a mission, that would have been where Warren and others would have gotten the idea that that reassignment in marrying women who already married other men was even possible. Is that fair? Everyone?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:38:26] I would dare say that Warren probably is in a better situation ethically. I don't know if that doesn't make sense. Warren and ethics don't match. But at least he was completely getting rid of the husband and then remarrying them as his own, where Joseph Smith was marrying them a secret and having them remain married to both men. So Warren was at least keeping it as a marriage rather than trying to like have this dual life for the woman. The woman was literally taken from one and placed in another. Instead of you have your husband, but you also have me over here doing both, if that makes sense. I'd say it's interesting that Warren just kind of made it more clear cut and dry of how it was that the women belonged to the priesthood rather than trying to put them into a false security of like, oh, you still have them, but you have me as well.

Joanna Fisher [02:39:24] I would like to add to that because that was how it was. Like when my mom remarried, we didn't even have pictures of my dad. I didn't know what he looked like for most of my life. First time I met him, I didn't know he was my father because he strictly kept that very separate. Like once he was sent to go and kicked out, you no longer had any communication, no longer any sexual relation? Not at all. Like just nothing with that previous man?

John Dehlin [02:39:48] Yeah. This actually was an area where I felt like Joseph might be in some ways worse than Warren, which is hard to do. It's hard to beat Warren, you know what I mean? And. And this polyandry thing may have been one area where Joseph was worse. Any final thing you want to say about that, Jen? Are you good?

Jen Camp [02:40:04] No.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] Okay.

Jen Camp [02:40:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:06] Okay, let's go ahead and just quickly talk about. You know, Jen, one of the things I remember really clearly when we were with Sandra Tanner talking about DNC132, which, by the way, what, what Mormons, many active Latter Day Saints in our church don't recognize is that polygamy is still in Mormon, you know, Mormon church doctrine, that if any, any LDS Church member goes to Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, they're going to see all this spelled out as doctrine. Today in, in the modern Mormon Church, it's still doctrine. So in that sense, we're still a polygamous church. Not to mention the fact that our two highest ranking leaders, Russell M. Nelson and Down H. Oaks, are sealed to polygamous wives in the eternities, that's also true. But when you read Doctrine and Covenants 132, Jen, I was just struck with how women are talked about in terms of them being almost like property or cattle. Jen, do you want to. Do you want to talk about that just really briefly?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:41:08] Your.

John Dehlin [02:41:08] Your recollections of that conversation. And then Melissa and Sam and Joanna, if you guys want to talk about DNC132, I want to hear your thoughts on that

Jen Camp [02:41:17] first. I would say that it was interesting to me how I never knew that doctrine, how I never knew that that was still in place.

John Dehlin [02:41:30] You had never really paid attention to DC 132, even though it was there all along?

Jen Camp [02:41:34] No. And when we would be like, have a lesson on D&C132 in church, we would never, we would never learn it or discuss it as a whole chapter. Like we wouldn't like read through it and go over every, every verse. We would always learn it and talk about it in little chunks. Or the lesson would stop before the end of DNC 132. Where a lot of the, where Emma is, you know, will be condemned or I forget the exact word is that the word is condemned.

John Dehlin [02:42:14] Yeah. Damned or damned.

Jen Camp [02:42:16] Yeah. Where a lot of that happens. But going through it with Sandra Tanner, bless her heart, like verse by verse, understanding it, reading through it. I would suggest you go back and watch that series. It's a three part series that we did with Sandra Tanner. We go through each verse and we, we play what the Apollo apologists say about it and then we read the Scriptures and then we go through the verse and we actually break it down. What it's meaning, what it's, it's saying, how it builds on each other because you can take little pieces of it here and there and you can make it seem all fine and dandy. But when you look at that in a historical aspect, what was going on, how it was written, why it was written, who delivered it to Emma, what Emma's response was like, if you look at the whole picture, it's nothing more than fulfilling the sexual fantasy of Joseph Smith. And that's why it was. The revelation was written down and given and it was. Yeah, I don't know what else to say.

John Dehlin [02:43:35] For me, what was disturbing about it was that women are talked about, you know, they're referred to as handmaidens, I think, or handmaids.

Jen Camp [02:43:43] Like a servant.

John Dehlin [02:43:44] Like servants.

Jen Camp [02:43:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:47] And it Heavenly Father or Jesus, if Jesus is the author of, you know, scripture revelation, he's talking about women being given as one man. But then if the man's not righteous, they're taken away from that man and given to another. And they're talked about as like glory that, that the man will increase in his glory the more women that he has. And there's no, nothing really talking about the, the value of the woman.

Jen Camp [02:44:14] The woman's talked about being damned, being a servant and given.

John Dehlin [02:44:19] Giving away property. Yeah. Being property. Yeah, yeah. And so Joseph Smith with Doctrine Covenants 132, set the precedent that women are just literally cattle or chattel or property. And so, you know, let's go ahead and bring, bring our guests in, Sam and, and Melissa and Joanna. What, what do you guys want to say about, if there's anything you want to say about DNC 132? But then really specifically Sam and Joanna, what do you want to say about the treatment of women as Property or cattle in the FLDS church.

Joanna Fisher [02:44:53] I want to bring up a phrase that was used a lot, and it was, you young women are being raised as calves in a stall. That was said. And we always thought of it as though we're being, I don't know, like, I don't know why we thought of it different than actually what the words mean, but, like, you know, we were, you know, gloried and we were like, being groomed. Another one that was used was, you know, you are unpolished gems and your men will polish you to fit, like, what you need to be to make it to the celestial kingdom. Those were a few phrases that were used.

John Dehlin [02:45:33] Wow.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:45:35] Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants was a, Was a scripture that wasn't the flds. They didn't try to hide this scripture. This was one they would bring to the light, like, hey, this is how it needs to be. So the 132 was very well known scripture throughout the FLDS community and one that they would talk about a lot.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:45:54] TNC132 is a big time shelf breaker for me, and it's very, very hard for me to read. And I feel like anytime I talk about polygamy with another woman, I say, just go with an open heart and an open mind. Read D&C132 and just listen to your heart and it'll tell you.

John Dehlin [02:46:17] Yeah. Okay. So, you know, it's time for us to kind of, you know, we're, we're going to be coming close to three hours, but we've got over a thousand people joining us. Like, it's, It's. It's rare. I just want to say Sam and Melissa and Joanna. It's rare we have a thousand people joining our live stream. It's. It's almost unheard of. There's just a few big events like Natasha Alford's excommunication or a couple, you know, like the Brad Wilcox stuff. Like, it's really hard to have over a thousand.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:46:47] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [02:46:48] Live streams. So that's. But we also want to be respectful of your time. So is it okay if we just take maybe 10 minutes and just hustle through just a few more points that similarities?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:46:59] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:00] Melissa, are you okay? Or, Or.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:47:03] Yep, we're good.

John Dehlin [02:47:04] Enjoying.

Joanna Fisher [02:47:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:47:06] Okay. I promise I'll. I'll cover these final things fast. I just, I. I sometimes really want to dig into this stuff too much. Okay. So really, really quickly in terms of, in terms of power. Well, I, I guess when we talk about high Demand religions or cults. We talk about the bite model. Bite, B, I, T, E. So the B stands for behavioral controls, like dress or food or sex or behavior. I stands for information control, which. Which is limiting the. The knowledge that the members have the information about the history, the behavior of. Of the leadership. Because information, bad information or harmful information leads to thoughts that the church might be true or that the leaders might not be inspired. So you got to control the information to control the thoughts, and then you got to manipulate with fear, you know, and that sort of thing. I don't think we need to go into that. I think the documentary goes into a really good detail about. About, you know, the bite model and control. I want to thank Doug Vincent. He's making the point that if all the YouTubers, listeners, or viewers right now are on Facebook, hit the like button or hit the subscribe button. That could really increase our. Our viewership on YouTube. But because I know we're short on time, you guys can watch the documentary about the ways that people's behavior, information, thoughts were controlled and the way that they were manipulated really quickly. Sam or. Sam or Joanna. Is there anything you want to say about that?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:48:49] Sorry, could you ask the question one more time about.

John Dehlin [02:48:51] About the control. The ways that behavior and information and thoughts were controlled through emotional manipulation.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:48:59] Oh, goodness.

Joanna Fisher [02:49:00] I mean, there's so many ways. I'd say the fear of, like, internal damnation or becoming nothing. If you even doubt the prophet, like, it goes severely. And it's really weird because I, you know, it. I. I don't know. I'm gonna ask Melissa a question.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:49:15] In.

Joanna Fisher [02:49:15] In the lds, they believe in forgiveness.

Jen Camp [02:49:19] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [02:49:19] But they're like, there. There are things you cannot be forgiven for. And they. We also believe in forgiveness, but then they, like, bring in a lot of fear. So it's like you have agency to choose the wrong, but if you don't choose the wrong, you're damned. So it's like, is that really agency? And then as far as, like, the dress, like, women were directed how to comb their hair and how to eat. There were certain foods we couldn't eat, right down to, you know, all the hair up on the head. And so a lot of things were controlled. And I think it starts with, you know, that fear of not doing what we say. And then also there was another phrase that was used, and it was like, if you could even imagine, like, imagine the greatest glorious thing in the world, like, the glorious blessings are gonna be 10 times that. So just put up with the hardship because the glory is like you know, beyond imagination. But the damnation is the worst. Yeah, there was no, no, like balance.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:50:18] Yes. The FLDS seemed to be very direct, but there were some subtle things they would use as well. For example, the music. The music was very much follow the prophet, you know, and just keep sweet no matter what. He. The prophet is the one that will show you the way and you have to. I don't know about. For you, but in my household the music was something that wasn't just you listened to. On occasion. It was always on in the vehicles when we woke up. For for example, we had this intercom in our home that we would use to try to reach someone on the other end of the house that we didn't have time to walk 15 minutes to and, and ask them to come to the kitchen or something. But so we would dial a couple numbers and then get on the intercom and talk to over the speakers. My mother would use that in the morning and she would just put a. A CD player in front of it and play the music from Warren Jeffs and his wives and that, that, that they would sing and blast it over the intercom as a way of helping us wake up in the morning. I don't know if you experienced that too, but it was always on.

Joanna Fisher [02:51:31] There was always the music and then the devotionals. I don't know. There's millions of recordings of devotionals and what we. They called home economics, where Warren would groom women in those home economics. And they were playing constantly throughout the house. So there was no way to really get away from that. It's like it was bad to sleep and listen to those. It's about to fall asleep while the prophet was talking. And they were constantly playing those kind of things and any sort of. Like I got in trouble for listening to the radio. So any outside music was a. No, no.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:52:00] Bad, bad, bad, bad. Yes. I got into some big trouble listening to what they would call gentile music or worldly music. So that was not allowed.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:52:08] Good old Taylor Swift and Hillary Duff.

Joanna Fisher [02:52:11] The devil.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:52:12] How dare I.

Joanna Fisher [02:52:13] Another thing I'd love to mention is they made us feel like that we were the one elite. We were the one group that was going to heaven. Like they taught us that the LDS Church was the wicked and abominable church

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:52:25] and abominable church talked about in the Book of Mormon.

Joanna Fisher [02:52:27] Yes. And so we were the one elite. So like we had so many blessings and so many promises and then so many damnations and so many. Like you just have like a lot of pressure. Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:52:40] You had a Very narrow path that you had to stay on. And it was, it was very much dictated and there was, there was no wiggle room. It was very much, you do this or else. Yeah, and, and it was cut and dry. But I feel like in order to make us stay and always be obedient to those things, they would also throw in little subtle things here and there as well, like the music or that, where they would kind of slip this information and, and have it always going over and over in our mind.

Joanna Fisher [02:53:10] Even funerals were not about. Like, they would tell subtle stories here and there, but they'd be like, I want to take this time to read, you know, Scripture, Doc. And it was like even that was used as another reason to preach about the gospel and about, I feel like, like it, it really angered me at my brother's, you know, because they did that. I just remember being like, can you just talk about when he did this one great thing? And they would read a scripture instead.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:53:35] They would say it was all about what comes after this life. And that's something else I would. Was going to point out is they would not focus on this life so much that you just need to endure this life. It's all that matters that you enjoy this life. Because depending on how you do here will determine what your life is after here. And you. It'll either be this most amazing thing you can't even possibly comprehend right now, or it will be the worst imaginable thing possible. And so that was why we just kept chugging along doing what we were told.

John Dehlin [02:54:06] Yeah. And so whether it's, you know, telling people that Jesus is coming any minute, so you better be righteous or you'll be burned when Jesus comes, or you'll suffer in heaven, in outer darkness, or in hell that you won't be exalted or even just being told you won't be able to live forever with your family or being worried about in this life that you may have your spouse taken away from you, you may have your kids taken away from you at any moment. Just the amount of fear that was used to manipulate and control is just, was just unbelievable. And I would say the LDS Church has a lot of that, but it's, but it's more oriented at the afterlife than it is on this earth. But it still can be significantly influential and powerful to Mormon church members. So I think we excel at the bite model just like you guys do. But of course, I think the FLDS win in terms of overall adherence to the bite model. You agree, Jen?

Jen Camp [02:55:07] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:55:08] You guys Win that one. Okay, really quick, we're going to end with just a couple final things. One of the things that I think is a really stark, fair comparison between Joseph Smith and Warren, and honestly, I think Joseph Maven win on this is the degree to which he had total control. And what I'm talking about is total control over the church. But he was also. Joseph Smith was mayor. Now, I know that that's different than Warren, because, Sam, I remember you telling us that your dad was mayor. So Joseph Smith was prophet and president of the church. He was mayor, he was judge, and he had his own army. He was actually the head of the Nauvoo militia, and he would march that militia around neighboring towns to intimidate them and, of course, his own law enforcement. And so I think this is an area where Joseph. And Joseph had himself ordained king of the world towards the end of his life. Literally king of the world. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna put a stake in the ground, and I'm gonna say Joseph actually seized more total, comprehensive power than did Warren. But I was just stunned at how much, you know, power Warren had to the point of his own police force and, you know, total control of Hilldale. So, Salmon, Joanna, do you guys want to talk anything about the toad? Not to mention that Joseph Smith had a bank, you know, his own bank. And Warren, of course, had his own financial exploits. But, Sam and Joanna, do you want to talk about Warren, Jeff's total power within the community?

Jeffs on the Run and the Collapse of His Leadership

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:56:40] I would just say it doesn't matter who the mayor is if you have total control over that person. And that's kind of the way it was for Warren. I mean, yes, he had his people in all of these different areas, but he had 100% of the control if he said something that happened. So I feel that he, at least over the community, his followers, he had 100 of the control at all times.

Joanna Fisher [02:57:05] I would like to add in some places, like, we were taught that the president of the United States doesn't mean anything compared to Warren.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:57:12] True.

Joanna Fisher [02:57:13] So, like, he. He was considered everything. And he had. He did have his own police force. He directed who he wanted to be police. And even all the mayors of the town that were a part of the community did as Warren said as well. So if he wasn't the mayor, he still controlled the mayor.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:57:31] He was perhaps, maybe more of a puppeteer. Rather than trying to go and be all these things like you were saying, Joseph Smith was like, rather than going and being those things himself, he. I would say almost is a Little more cunning. Right. Joseph Smith, that's very obvious what he's doing and what kind of power he has. But I think it's almost a little bit more sly and cunning. And I'd give points per se to Warren to make it look like they had a regular police force. He's not in charge of the police.

Jen Camp [02:57:59] Police.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [02:57:59] He's not. Look, there's a different mayor. I'm not in charge of the mayor. I'm not in charge of the judicial system. I'm not, you know, like. But while he actually did have the control over that, so he was just a little bit more cunning while kind of having a lot of the same control that Joseph Smith did.

Joanna Fisher [02:58:15] So he was his own security as well, which drove around and followed all the cops and everybody that went to town and scared him out. So.

John Dehlin [02:58:22] So he was.

Joanna Fisher [02:58:23] Doesn't mayor want to lose his family? No. So he's going to do what Warren wants.

John Dehlin [02:58:26] Right, Right. So he's either better at delegating or creating the appearance of delegation, Is that what you're saying? That's what I would say, but still super powerful. Okay.

Joanna Fisher [02:58:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:38] Okay. I'm going to read through a bunch of these as a way to kind of summarize the ending of Keep Sweet. But one very important similarity that Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith both had is how much legal trouble they were both in towards the end of their lives. And this is something, Jen, I didn't learn until I read Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History. And of course, this is covered in Joseph Smith's rough stone rolling as well. But Joseph Smith was always running from the law. He was convicted of crimes multiple times throughout his life sentence. You know, convicted of crimes. He was a criminal. Joseph Smith was a criminal from before he published the Book of Mormon to his final days. He, towards the end of his life, he was in so much trouble that just like Warren, he was on the run because the state and federal, you know, law enforcement, whoever it was, would be coming into town trying to find him. He would have to be moving from. From place to place. He eventually was caught. He was eventually was imprisoned. He even gave revelations from prison, whether it was in Liberty Jail or Carthage Jail. And, you know, ultimately he ended his life in prison. I think it's pretty safe to say Warren Jeffs is going to end his life in prison. Joseph ended his life being killed by a mob while he was in prison. And I think Warren Jeffs is, as you informed me, Sam and Melissa, Warren Jeffs is right now in solitary confinement, but he apparently is soon going to be released from solitary confinement, where it's rumored that he is likely going to be killed there. And so in that sense, scary, scary parallels in terms of Joseph Smith's legal record, criminal record, and the way his life ends. And I want to give Sam and Joanna a chance to just fill in any blanks you want to add about Warren Jeff's final, final months and years free and then his life in prison.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:00:47] You know, it's interesting is they would actually the leaders of the FLDS church while Warren was on the run, while Warren was being prosecuted, while he was preaching from his prison cell and all of these things, they would oftentimes in the FLDS church talk about how similar it was to Joseph Smith. They would say, see, it is just like in Joseph Smith's day, we are being persecuted. The law is after us. And it's just because, just like with Joseph Smith, the. The evil people of the world are trying to destroy God's work and destroy his church. So they would often compare those two. All the time, actually.

Joanna Fisher [03:01:26] Yeah. All the time.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:01:29] Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know if there's much more to fill in than that, but. But I definitely see the comparison there. And that was talked about, I think,

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:01:38] watching the Keep Sweet Brain Obey when Elisa says that she felt like after the trial, she kind of helped reinforce the FLDS fears and she didn't like the fact that what happened to her was used to build the FLDS faith. Right. And I feel like it's very similar with, if Warren, when Warren most likely dies in prison, he is going to be considered a martyr, and it's going to be a fulfilling prophecy of that. He was just as valiant and as righteous and as wonderful as a prophet as what Joseph Smith was. And so while the rest of people are like, please take him out of solitary. Let it happen, like, we're ready. He needs to be destroyed at the same time. That is going to seal his fate as a martyr. And so it's just an interesting thing to recognize the way that the FLDS people are going to view that compared to the way the rest of the world is going to view that.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:02:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:45] Let me ask Joanna. Joanna, you talked about, like, giving food stamps to the church. Did you see part four of Keep Sweet Joanna?

Joanna Fisher [03:02:54] I did. It was a little bit ago.

John Dehlin [03:02:56] Okay.

Joanna Fisher [03:02:57] And it was kind of late when I was watching it.

John Dehlin [03:02:59] Tell me if you remember the part where he's on the run with an entourage and he's, like, going to Disneyland. He's Going to Vegas. They say he used prostitutes or strippers, sex workers, or, you know, went to strip clubs potentially. He's kind of, like, partying it up, you know, receiving up to, like, $300,000 a week in, like, tomato cans while he's, like, ringing and starving and taking every cent from. From the FLDS church members back home. Joanna, can you talk about what that was like when you saw that and when you learned that knowing what life was like for you back home? And then, Sam, you can add to that.

Joanna Fisher [03:03:43] Honestly, I was pretty angry. I was like, wow. Like, I have friends that are still paying off loans that they got to give that three grand every weekend to him. And so I was like, we. Like, I, you know, don't want to use any bad language, but I did use bad language.

John Dehlin [03:04:01] You can use bad language. You can use it.

Joanna Fisher [03:04:04] I called him a sick fuck.

John Dehlin [03:04:07] And why'd you feel that way? Tell us why you felt that way.

Joanna Fisher [03:04:11] Because we. I. We were just living the best we could. Like, I had one dress for years. I washed every night because we just didn't have money and materials for more. So we just gave everything. And I thought that it was building Zion. I thought that it was building a greater future for us. And he's out doing these things that he tells us are horrible and bad and will destroy us. And he's out doing those things.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:04:40] I don't think anyone that followed him, aside from those that were actually with him at this time, had any idea. There weren't. There weren't even rumors. I mean, generally speaking, there would be some kind of rumor, like. Like, oh, I actually heard that Warren is in Vegas, a party or something, you know, but nobody had any idea. And even if. Even if I had heard that rumor, I would have never believed it.

Joanna Fisher [03:05:08] Yeah, that's just the truth. You would have never even considered that. Because he was God.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:05:11] Yeah, we put him on a similar pedestal as God himself. We really thought that he was that good.

Joanna Fisher [03:05:18] And we were taught that those sort of pleasures just, like, destroyed your soul. Listening to music, going to Disneyland. Anything recreational was just bad. Like, towards the end there. First there was sports and there was fun things, but towards the end there, we couldn't even have rollerblades or trampolines or do anything that was considered, like, recreational. They said no recreation that was used.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:05:39] No fun. Even the word fun was not allowed.

Joanna Fisher [03:05:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:46] And so that made me wonder whether he was, like, new, knew that he was betraying everyone, and whether he didn't even believe what he was teaching everyone. And so I this is one question I just wanted to make sure I asked you all before we ended. I hear rumors that he tried to die by suicide while he was in prison. And then I hear rumors that he actually acknowledged at some point that he wasn't really a prophet while he was in prison. And then there's just the general question. Do either of you, Sam or Joanna, have an opinion as to whether he knew he was a fraud and was knowingly. But, you know, pulling one over on all his. On all his members? Do you, either of you, have opinions about all of that, including this, the death by suicide in jail and him admitting that he wasn't a prophet?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:06:33] It.

Joanna Fisher [03:06:33] I. I believe he did. I believe he felt some guilt. I believe that he even, like in the. What they call heavenly sessions, like, I guess in those, he was preaching some, like, you know, I. I bless you with these blessings. He was using that as a way. I think that it caught up to him. And he. I believe he did start feeling guilty. And I believe that he actually did believe in the end there that he wasn't a prophet. And then his brother came to him, was like, no, this is just a hardship. This is just this. Like. Like, everybody's counting on you. And he kind of kicked him back into that role, and he had to step up because he had no other choice. But honestly, I do believe that he. He believes he's a false prophet. I believe he feels some guilt.

John Dehlin [03:07:14] Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:07:15] And I would agree. I think that down deep he knew that he was a false prophet and that he was just making up a bunch of lies. But at the same time, if you tell yourself the same lie enough, you believe it yourself. I think that had somewhat of a role in there as well. And that's. He. I think that he convinced himself on some of the things. Maybe not when he was in prison, but before he went to prison and he was always escaping the law and. And all of these things were kind of working out for him. I mean, I don't know about the partying. I can't imagine how he would think that he was a man of God and doing those things. Right. But. But before the. Before all of that, maybe he had convinced himself to some extent. No, I do think he was a prophet.

Joanna Fisher [03:08:00] I do think in the beginning he believed he was a prophet. I do. I just think that it all started catching up to him. And at some point, I think he started to feel the pressure and the guilt. But once you're in that deep, I don't think there's really a way Out.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:08:13] Yeah. And so I think that's why he tried to commit suicide, was he just felt there was no way out. And then you're right, he started to get. His brother came in and then he got some really good lawyers and all of a sudden he was back ready to start preaching his sermons again.

Joanna Fisher [03:08:27] And I think the support of the people as well, like us giving money to the lawyers and us supporting his phone calls, I mean, all of that, I feel like that if, if someone had that kind of loyalty and support, they would have no other choice but to step up and say continue. Like I think continue to preach and continue to be that role.

John Dehlin [03:08:48] Yeah. How did you, how did you all feel when that. So after he's in prison and all the FLDS women are going on, you know, Larry King and, and Good Morning America saying how awesome and how happy everyone is and, and particularly the part where the woman who they proved had actually delivered babies from underage brides stands up, up on national television and proclaims that she never saw any underage marriages, let alone babies of underage brides. How did you feel when you saw the members tell bold faced lies to the world?

Joanna Fisher [03:09:32] I wanted to slap people across the face, straight up.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:09:36] You know, it was a good reminder of when I was out there as well, that, that we felt that we were above the law. And when it came to protecting the prophet of God, when it came to protecting the church itself, we could say or do whatever we needed to do to protect the prophet, to protect the church, because that's what we were told was the most important.

Joanna Fisher [03:09:58] Yeah. And that's true. We were. But me as a woman, I'm like, I do, I want to slap some reality into some people.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:10:04] Looking back now and seeing that people were lying about those type of things. I mean, yes, we may lie about taxes or whatever the case may be, you know, and that's, that's in the food stamps and that's awful as well. But, but to lie about rape and to lie about the type of things that these women were lying about, that is infuriating.

Joanna Fisher [03:10:26] And like to see a mother, I guess, like watch a child, a little body deliver another body and lie, like, how can you be a mom and still lie about that and still support that.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:10:42] Yeah.

Systemic Deception and Generational Harm

John Dehlin [03:10:44] And since we, we try and remember it's systems, not people, that maybe all these women who lied and men who lied were victims, I want to bring it back to Joseph Smith because as hard as it is for Mormons and FLDS people to hear this, Joseph Smith was the OG liar. He lied to. He lied about Fadi Alger. He lied about his polygamy to Emma. He had married like 22 women before he ever told Emma about polygamy, which violated what eventually became DNC132. He lied to his counselors. When Oliver Cowdery called him and it caught him in an affair, he denied it. And he excommunicated Oliver Cowdery. And he only shared his polygamy with the inner circle. And he lied to not only the world and the media, but to his own membership. When he was bold face asked if he was a polygamist, he lied to the membership. And then, of course, when the Nauvoo Expositor revealed that he was a polygamist and he could from one of his insiders, he had the printing press destroyed. So. So we have to put that on Joseph as the OG Liar. He was a phenomenal skilled and compulsive liar. Am I being unfair? Am I being too harsh?

Jen Camp [03:12:05] No, but unfortunately you don't. You don't learn. You don't know any of this when you're in the religion because you're told to only. Only look on lds.org don't go to outside sources. Don't listen to them. Like, I didn't know Mormon stories existed. I knew nothing of John de Lynn. Nothing of any Sandra Tanner. Nope.

John Dehlin [03:12:31] You know, no one. No one I knew Fawn Brody. No man knows my history. Any of the books. Todd Compton in Sacred Loneliness.

Jen Camp [03:12:39] No.

John Dehlin [03:12:39] Even Russell Rolling. Any of the books that you would learn about this stuff about we're told are dangerous and scary. Even the gospel topics essays Mormons don't know about.

Jen Camp [03:12:47] No.

John Dehlin [03:12:48] Or believe that the. That the church was hacked. The church's website was hacked.

Jen Camp [03:12:51] Right.

John Dehlin [03:12:52] Right.

Jen Camp [03:12:52] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's just. We don't know. We don't know about it. We don't know anything about Joseph being con. Convicted of anything.

John Dehlin [03:13:00] We don't know about him being a compulsive liar.

Jen Camp [03:13:03] Compulsive liar. We don't know anything. Even the little tiny things, like we don't know about him drinking wine before he was, you know, killed. You know, there's just. There's just like even little teeny tiny things that really don't matter. Like we don't know about them. They keep them from us.

John Dehlin [03:13:22] Yeah.

Jen Camp [03:13:22] So.

John Dehlin [03:13:24] Yep. Okay. Anything you, you, salmon, join. I know we're trying to end. Anything you guys want to add about that particular point or.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:13:34] I think we covered it pretty well.

John Dehlin [03:13:35] Okay.

Joanna Fisher [03:13:35] Yeah. Just the same thing. Like, we didn't know anything either when we were in.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:13:39] Yeah.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:13:39] It's not. It's not the people, you know, the people that are. It's so easy for anyone to say, like, oh, I would never be able to be deceived like that. Right. But you just never. You never know. And especially with limited information, it's too relatable, I guess, is just never think that you're not capable of being fooled because it can happen.

Joanna Fisher [03:14:02] Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:14:02] I often think if only I was there and know what I know now, I would have done things so differently. But that's easy to say, of course, once you're out. But looking back, if I really look deep into my feelings, not just what my knowledge now, but the actual feelings, it were. It was my feelings that were keeping me there and my feelings that were directing me to follow because those were the feelings I had at birth. And it just kind of continued. Continued on and increased and got stronger as time went on.

John Dehlin [03:14:31] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [03:14:31] Yeah.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:14:32] And nobody can deny another person's spiritual experiences. And I think that happens in every religion. Right. If you have a spiritual experience that tells you with certainty that something is true, you're going to continue to go along with all of those other things and everything else that comes with it. And so, so many times, especially in the LDs and the FLDS, we're told that it's the spirit. But we're not the only religions that have that. Those sense of emotions that keep you believing and keep you being willing to do whatever it takes to keep that faith.

Joanna Fisher [03:15:08] I guess. Like I believe, like, you know, you create your own experiences and your own energy in those experiences. So when someone manipulates your mind, like I remember how I felt when I came out of the water for the first time being baptized. Now always remember that. But what I've what now I recognize that as is an experience that I created in my mind and I created the energy myself because of false beliefs, things that were in my mind because you do, you create the feelings you have. And as a child, if those are manipulated, those are the feelings you have.

John Dehlin [03:15:40] That is profound, Joanna. Brilliant. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, two more questions and they're going to be very quick. Okay, first question. Many Mormons today in the LDS Church, many apologists will say, nope, the church is true. Because everyone who was around Joseph Smith, even after he was killed, continued believing. And there's no way that if Joseph was a fraud, that people around him after they saw him in trouble, saw him go to jail, even saw him killed. There's no way that if he was a fraud, not only would people still believe, but that the church would have survived. So, Sam and Joanna, what do you guys think about the argument that Joseph Smith was still a prophet of God because there are still people who believe in him after all the problems happened.

Joanna Fisher [03:16:31] I believe it happens for generations. Like, if your parents teach you that and it goes back, like I said, it goes back six generations for us. Or even more so, like if your parents teach you that from a kid and then it just goes on and on, I think that's how it continues. It has nothing to do with how it's established. It's about who continues it and the people that choose to because their parents choose to, and it just goes on.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:16:52] I would say that the persecution is a testimony builder for the members of the church because they're taught their entire lives, maybe because they're nervous that something's going to happen down the road with the law or whatever, but we're taught our entire lives that the people that these evil, wicked people out in the world are after God's people. And so when they're put into prison or whatever the case may be, then it's just like, oh, see, it's true.

Joanna Fisher [03:17:18] True.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:17:18] It's true. They're after God's work. And because we're being persecuted, that only means one thing, that this is the only true church on the earth today.

Joanna Fisher [03:17:27] Yeah. I think the leaders also create that illusion by breaking the law, knowing the consequences. So then they put that into revelation.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:17:35] That's a good point.

John Dehlin [03:17:36] Y' all are so brilliant. So. And to put a fine point on it, Sam and Joanna, do each of you have close family members or friends who, in spite of all that's happened to Warren Jeffs, including the rape and the felony charges in his conviction that are still devoutly believers today?

Joanna Fisher [03:17:54] Yes.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:17:55] I've. Over half of my family, over half of mine are still following, are still following Warren Jeffs and believe that he is a prophet. And don't believe any of this information that has come out. And if they did watch the. Any of these documentaries, they would sit back and say, ah, that's all fabricated. All these apostates that left the church are just out there trying to attack God's people. And they have turned into these evil, dark people. You can tell that they don't have that shine around their face anymore because they're just trying to destroy God's work.

Joanna Fisher [03:18:25] Yeah. If I try to talk about anything to my mom, she shuts me down. She won't let me because she doesn't Want to hear it?

John Dehlin [03:18:33] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [03:18:34] So I try to just like, respect, I guess, her beliefs because that's the only way I can even talk to her, which is very, very seldom and very few, because to them, when you leave, you're dead to them. And then eventually kind of some families come around, but you have to be very careful if you want any communication with your family.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:18:54] Yeah. I've learned with this experience of having to leave my family behind that it is very difficult to win a religious argument because it's all based on people's feelings. It's not like Joanna said, her mother doesn't want to hear it. I mean, it's not whether or not it's true. She doesn't want to hear it, period, because she feels that what she has is the truth. And so to try to go to her and say, hey, this is a lie, you're living a lie. Good luck with that argument.

Joanna Fisher [03:19:23] Yeah, they just, their beliefs are solid, I guess.

John Dehlin [03:19:28] So if a Mormon apologist says, well, Joseph Smith's polygamy was good because some of his former wives testified that they still loved him and that they had a good experience with polygamy, or if Mormon apologists say, well, Joseph Smith's ministry was of God because the church survived and even thrived after he was dead, you guys would say, what, Based on your experience?

Joanna Fisher [03:19:54] Like I said before, they. They break the law and then create revelations to confirm what happens to them for those consequences. So then we believe it. And as far as polygamy and saying they loved him, people cheat all the time because they love people. It doesn't mean it's right.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:20:14] Yeah, yeah.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:20:16] I would say with the polygamy aspect of it, you know, if you have to look at these FLDS women, you know, the Mormon apologists look at those FLDS women that you know are lying and the what they're saying and take into account how much you believe their account and why you would feel in your heart that they're not being honest or truthful or the reason that they might be saying that. And I think it's the. The same as before. And just because something can survive does not mean that it's true.

Joanna Fisher [03:20:47] Yeah.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:20:48] Survival does not equal equate truth or followers.

John Dehlin [03:20:53] Remaining devout does not make anything true. Correct?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:20:58] Oh, exactly.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:20:59] There's followers of all sorts of things that doesn't even just apply to the LDS and the flds. You can find people who follow and believe all sorts of things that if you went to a modern day Mormon and you said, well, do you believe in this God that has eight arms and da, da, da. And they'd say, well, that doesn't make any sense. Of course, I wouldn't believe that. But there are people who do. Like, you can't do that with beliefs because there's always going to be a group of people who believe differently than you and believe in a way that would seem absurd to you, but your beliefs make perfect sense to you. And so anytime you're dealing with beliefs, you can't negate other people's spiritual experiences. And everybody has such different experiences that navigate their faith journey. There's no way to say that anything is their truth or not true based on that.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:21:45] And just because what you feel makes perfect sense and isn't at all weird or strange doesn't mean that someone from the outside looking in isn't out there thinking, how could anyone believe that that is the, the most strange thing in the world? For example, you know, growing up flds, it didn't seem strange or weird to me. I, I thought it was perfectly normal. That's what I was raised with. And, and, and, and I. You hear so many people say, oh, my, how are these people doing this? How are they following along with this crazy nonsense? It's obviously not true.

Joanna Fisher [03:22:17] Well, that was our normal.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:22:20] Easy to say from the outside.

Joanna Fisher [03:22:22] Yeah. Another way to say no religion is like, no religion is for everybody. In my experience, you, you're. You save your own soul. I think sort of because there are so many religions, there are so many things, and going through so many different experiences, every single person kind of saves themselves, I think, in their own eyes.

John Dehlin [03:22:43] Mic drop, mic drop. Another way to say that is no one who's in a cult thinks they're in a cult. Right. Nobody ever thinks they're an occult. Right?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:22:51] Yeah.

Joanna Fisher [03:22:52] There's a friend of mine, he was a branch off of the coal, and he grew up in what we called Centennial. And he said it like this. He said, saying you will never be in cold is like saying you will never be in a bad relationship. You're too close to the problem to recognize the problem. That was Calvin Wayman. He does a lot of things like this. But that was something he said, and I loved it the way he said that. Yeah, it's like a toxic relationship. You don't choose to be in one, but you continue it a lot of times because you don't recognize it. You're too close to it.

John Dehlin [03:23:19] So powerful. So powerful. Okay, so if we had to summarize. Jen, I'm gonna ask you this question first, and then I'm asking Melissa and Joanna to weigh in. It'll be Jen, then Melissa, then Sam, then Joanna. What we've been trying to talk about today is how similar were Joseph Smith and Warren Jeff. So this is the final question of the day. If there was a Venn diagram where all of Joseph Smith's beliefs and practices were one circle, and that was Joseph Smith, if all of Joseph Smith's beliefs and practices are one circle and all of Warren Jeff's beliefs and practices were another circle, what would the overlap be in terms of a percentage? Jen, you go first.

Comparing Jeffs and Smith and Closing Reflections

Jen Camp [03:24:00] Oh, goodness.

John Dehlin [03:24:01] A percentage of overlap in belief and practice.

Jen Camp [03:24:04] A hundred.

John Dehlin [03:24:06] But you're saying 100. Jen's just going right. Jen goes right for 100.

Jen Camp [03:24:11] I'd say 100. And then Warren's like, even, like, expanded that circle, and he's like 100 and, like, 57.

John Dehlin [03:24:18] So you're saying Joseph's 100 and Warren's like 157.

Jen Camp [03:24:21] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:24:22] All right. All right, Melissa, your turn. What's the Venn diagram percentage for Joseph and Warren being similar?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:24:28] I would say Warren's about 90% of Joseph Smith because Joseph Smith and Warren's temple ordinances were so vastly different that Warren didn't quite get that right.

John Dehlin [03:24:42] Okay. All right, Sam, what's your vote? Venn diagram.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:24:47] Oh, my. I know this is supposed to be an easy question, but

John Dehlin [03:24:52] I mean, it's harder. You guys got to see Warren Jeffs up close, and I think. I think a lot of listeners would want and a more objective answer that would say, objectively, Warren was worse than Joseph. And so I think a lot of our listeners, and especially believing ones or progressive Mormons, are probably going to put the number more at 70 or 80%. Like, yes, there's a lot of overlap, but Warren was way worse in several fundamental ways. And the reason why I didn't want to poison your answer or, like, alter your answer, but you got to see you. Sam and Joanna got to see Warren up close. So if you two had to say how similar versus dissimilar were they, you would probably know better than me, Melissa or Jen. That's what I was trying to.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:25:42] Yeah.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:25:43] And if. Okay, if I put myself back in the shoes of a young Sam FLDS member loving my life out there, I would. I would say probably Joseph Smith was 80% of Warren Jeffs in the sense that Joseph Smith did everything, or Warren Jeffs did everything that Joseph Smith did, plus some.

John Dehlin [03:26:12] Yeah. Okay.

Joanna Fisher [03:26:15] And Joanna, I would say they're one in the same, because it doesn't matter how much you act on, if you have those intentions and you put out that kind of like dictatorship. And we are doing, you know, we're doing the restoration that Joe Smith described. But he came up with it, right? Warren practiced it, right? I'd say they're one in the same. Say 100.

John Dehlin [03:26:41] Yeah. Warren is the logical conclusion of what Joseph Smith started, or Warren Jeffs just did Joseph Smith. It's sometimes even better than Joseph Smith did, but powerful answers. Okay, Joanna, I think a lot of our listeners have already fallen in love with you and think you're amazing from your intellect, is what I'm saying, and your wisdom is what I mean by that. If people want to support or follow you, Joanna, and any awesome things you're doing in your life, how can people support you? How can they reach out to you? If you want to be reached out to. If you just want to live a private life and be left alone, that's okay, too. But also, if you've got a venmo or a PayPal or an Instagram or a blog or a podcast or anything, how can people show you their gratitude and support for what you've shared with us today?

Joanna Fisher [03:27:31] Well, I am growing my social media because I am a real estate agent here in Las Vegas now, and I've gotten a couple clients off social media, and I would love to continue to help more families get into homes. My Instagram is joannafisher16. The last name is spelled F I S C H, E R, which is a little different. If you have any questions, like, feel free to reach out. I'm an open book and I want to be someone that people can come to for answers and to shed a light on some of these things so that I think that would help. I do want to grow my social media for that purpose, to bring a light to different things. And yeah, of course, I'm a real estate agent, so if you need a home, please reach out.

John Dehlin [03:28:14] So I will personally, personally, I will personally fly to Las Vegas and have dinner with the. The first person who either buys or sells a home through Joanna. Okay, I'll make that promise.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:28:29] Wow.

Joanna Fisher [03:28:29] I like that.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:28:30] From.

John Dehlin [03:28:31] From this show. Okay, perfect. Is that all right? And. And Joanna, say one more time how they get a hold of you.

Joanna Fisher [03:28:38] My Instagram is Joanna Fisher, 6.

John Dehlin [03:28:41] Okay.

Joanna Fisher [03:28:42] Just DM me for my number.

John Dehlin [03:28:43] Okay.

Joanna Fisher [03:28:44] Because I don't put it out there.

John Dehlin [03:28:45] All right. That offers good for the next five years at least. So whoever that is, whenever that is, I look forward to hearing from it, and I hope that helps. Joanna, okay.

Joanna Fisher [03:28:56] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:28:57] Sam and Melissa, you have a freaking awesome podcast. How do people follow you and then how do they give you money?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:29:07] Well, you can Follow us on YouTube Growing up in polygamy. I was also going to plug that. Joanne A. Has been a guest on our show before, so if you want to know more about her story and leaving, it's awesome and amazing and it's on our YouTube channel for growing up in polygamy. We are on Spotify as well and podcast form, but we typically do YouTube and money.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:29:29] Yeah, well, we're creating a. We're creating a website right now, so that'll be available soon, and we're hoping to have ways to donate there as well. But for now, can you say that

John Dehlin [03:29:40] do you own the domain name of that website so that we can link to it and people who listen or view later will. Will know where to go? Or do you not know the URL of that website?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:29:50] Yeah, we actually have the domain name. So it's growing up in. Growing up in polygamy dot com.

Joanna Fisher [03:29:55] Yay. So we have that.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:29:58] We're working on that. But I'd say for donations right now on YouTube, you can become a member on YouTube or do super chats or donations through YouTube as of right now. And then hopefully soon we'll be able to get a website up where we can offer more resources in a way to be able to continue to do more interviews with amazing people like Joanna and give them the power to tell their stories and empower them through that. And so we're looking forward to building that website and hopefully having a donate button on there if people want to support that cause.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:30:33] And thank you all so much for your support. We really, really do appreciate that. We love doing this type of thing and hope to be able to do more interviews and this type of thing in the future as well.

John Dehlin [03:30:41] So all of you live in Vegas, right?

Joanna Fisher [03:30:43] Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:30:45] Here's the deal. If at least 100 people donate to you through Mormon stories or join your YouTube group through Mormon stories, we'll figure out a way to come to Vegas to bring some smart or cool people and to show Vegas lots of love as a way to reward everyone for their support of you. How does that sound?

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:31:08] That would be amazing. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [03:31:11] Okay. All right. Well, Sam and Melissa, thank you for your amazing YouTube channel. Please, listeners and viewers, believe me, we are going to be releasing in the next few days our interview with Sam and Melissa. It is absolutely still completely new stuff and worth listening. We go into way more detail, so please check that out. But also please check out Growing up in Polygamy)) because it's, it's an amazing channel with again, over 20,000 subscribers. And we want to grow it because. Oh, Melissa, I'm going to share a stat that you shared with me, which is that you have, you have been told that there's over 75 fundamentalist polygamous groups throughout the United States that have 5,000 members or more.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:32:04] Yes, it was actually Elisa Wall from that. The documentary that shared that information with

John Dehlin [03:32:10] me, which means that there's over. There's between three, at least three to 400,000 fundamentalist polygamists out there. And so the need for education and awareness and support for this bad situation is going to grow, probably not shrink with the death of Warren Jeffs. Is that fair to say?

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:32:33] Absolutely, I think so. And we're kind of already seeing that a lot of people from the FLDS community are already some man standing up and trying to lead some of these groups, some of the people and creating their own groups. So we're seeing that happen right now, actually.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:32:47] And we definitely want to be there for help and support and community.

John Dehlin [03:32:52] Okay, well, so for all those reasons, thank you. Sam, Melissa and Joanna, please support Growing Up Polygamy)). And let's just do our best to get the word out. Please share this episode, please subscribe here and there, Please like us and please get the word out. And let's figure out a way to stamp this out as much as we can. But most importantly, Sam, Melissa and Joanna, you three are lovely, amazing humans. And can I just apologize, Joanna and Sam and Melissa for keeping you way longer than I should have? That's rude. That's rude. It's discourteous. It's not nice.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:33:28] It is.

Joanna Fisher [03:33:28] Okay.

Sam (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:33:29] We're happy to be here.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:33:30] Most of our viewers ask us to have more information, more in depth conversations. So I'm sure they're loving it. So no problem at all. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [03:33:38] Joanna, we you forgive me and is there a way we can make it up to you?

Joanna Fisher [03:33:42] It's my pleasure to be here, honestly, so thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [03:33:46] Well, we still got 900 viewers even, even three and a half hours into this episode. So people love. People love you all. Okay, thank you, Sam, Melissa and Joanna, you guys take care. We adore you and we wish you all the success. Thanks so much. And Jen, thanks for joining us today as always.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:34:05] Cheers.

Jen Camp [03:34:06] Bye, everybody.

Melissa (Growing Up in Polygamy) [03:34:08] Good to see you.

Jen Camp [03:34:09] It's good to see you.

John Dehlin [03:34:10] You're awesome. Jen, we love what you bring to, to this episode and all that you make possible. So thank you, thank you. And also shout out to Maven, who is producing or at least kind of moderating the live chats in this episode. We, we appreciate Maven and we also give a shout out to Bill Real and RFM and Mormonism Live for all that they do. All right, everybody, thanks for your support. Support them. But also thanks for everyone who supports Mormon Stories. We couldn't do this without you. We benefit from your donations as super chats to YouTube. You can always donate through YouTube. You can click on the Stars feature on Facebook. That's the way we pay for people like Jen, like Gerardo and others. So please support us if you can. Thanks if you do. If you don't support us, you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button, become a monthly donor and we'll keep providing this type of content to you. But please also support growing up in polygamy and please buy all of your future real estate from Joanna. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Love each other. Polygamy)). Thumbs down. Underage, underage, non consensual abuse of children. Thumbs down. Healthy, consensual relationships between consenting adults. Thumbs up. We love everyone and we'll see you all again as soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Joanna Fisher [03:35:33] Thank you.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.