Welcome Back and Community Support

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 20, 2016 and we are having Jake and Amy Maloof back to Mormon Stories podcast. Some of you remember a few weeks ago, we interviewed them about a week, I think, before their disciplinary council date. They had been summoned to a disciplinary council primarily for Facebook comments that in my opinion and the opinion of many seemed relatively benign. Where they asked questions, expressed some doubts or concerns about the church's policy on the LDS church's policy on same sex marriage, on Joseph Smith polygamy and those sorts of things. And this was after having gone through a couple year process of struggling with their faith and questioning their, their LDS faith and, and trying beer. We have to remember, we have to include that they did try beer. So with that.

Jake Malouf [00:01:05] But whatever that was after.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Yeah, go back to the previous episode. Do you guys remember the episode number?

Jake Malouf [00:01:12] Oh, 657.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] Okay. Yeah, check that out. Listen to it, enjoy it, and then come back to this one because now we're going to be talking about their disciplinary council. Because if I have the dates right, on October 11th, you guys had your disciplinary council and we've been waiting all this time. It's the 20th now. We've been waiting nine days because I think after your disciplinary council, they told you that they would email you a letter, is that right?

Amy Malouf [00:01:43] Yeah, they said they'd mail us a letter that week.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Yeah. So they finally got the letter and now we're going to talk about the whole thing. But before we begin, I think Amy and Jake wanted to give a little introductory statement. So who wants to start?

Amy Malouf [00:01:59] I'll start. So, yeah, thanks for having us back on. And it was awesome to receive so many emails and texts and messages through my website of people that listened and understood and empathized and supported us. A few that didn't, but they still. Or they didn't agree, but they still supported us in what we were doing. And it was amazing. I was answering messages and responding and connecting with people that I was good friends with years and years ago and hadn't connected with. And then they saw the podcast pop up and all of a sudden this conversation was open. And so it was, it was really cool to have that, that just kind of avalanche of outpouring of support from all over the world and so many different people.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] So would you say like dozens of emails or.

Jake Malouf [00:02:50] Well, I'll dovetail onto that, but I think I counted. We received either texts or voice messages or Facebook messages or comments or something From, I think 13 different countries, all over the country. And I would say, at least personal contacts with us. It was in the hundreds.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Holy moly.

Jake Malouf [00:03:10] Yeah, Easily, like, I could. I mean, it was a bit over. Like, honestly, we were kind of went into the disciplinary council. I felt somewhat prepared. We had talked with the Calderwoods, which was really helpful. We had a Skype call with them and. But, like, I. I was totally overwhelmed with the response we got from the podcast.

Jake Malouf [00:03:28] I mean, hundreds. And I could literally take the next week or two off of work and do nothing but read and respond. And so I know there's a lot of people I've left hanging that I haven't responded to their stuff, and it's not because they don't want to, but we'll get to it. But I think what it. What it showed me is that this. It struck a chord. It wasn't just LDS or Mormon people either. It was people from many circles, from our lives or circles within circles, and, you know, college friends, high school friends, work people, people, you know, distant family members that we hadn't had any contact with for years. And that all of a sudden came out and contacted us is super neat.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] To what extent did you discover friends or family that you had no idea they were struggling, but your coming out, your being public allowed you to connect with other people who maybe were struggling in silence or maybe they just didn't feel comfortable opening up to you before about where they were?

Jake Malouf [00:04:35] Huge.

Amy Malouf [00:04:35] Yeah, that's the dominant, I guess, message that we received was, or that I received anyway, was people that I had no idea that I was really close with and that I consider some of my best friends that I had no idea where they stood with their belief or disbelief in the church. And this enabled a conversation that just wouldn't have happened because people don't feel safe bringing it up until someone puts themselves out there. And yeah, it was incredible. Incredible. The contacts that were re. Established and conversations that were had because of this.

Jake Malouf [00:05:12] Beautiful.

Amy Malouf [00:05:13] It was awesome.

Jake Malouf [00:05:14] Yeah. It feels like our support network and circle friends just expanded 20 fold.

Amy Malouf [00:05:20] Yeah, it felt like. Felt like I was in a room like a stadium with thousands of people cheering, then a couple people crying in the corner, but overwhelmingly cheering and, like, grateful for the conversation.

Jake Malouf [00:05:36] And I will say this because I know we have lots of friends that are listening to this, even in the church, and I feel it's important that they know that we love them. And we'll clarify some of the statements we made from the last podcast. We kind of, I think, insinuated that they didn't have our back or they weren't as important to us. And we'll explain what we meant by that because I think we botched the do delivery of that.

Jake Malouf [00:05:59] But also, it's just really cool. And I know some of them probably think we're just doing this because we're getting drunk on the attention or the publicity. And that's not it. Because it's those private messages where people are reaching out and saying, if you thought you were helping just one person, I'm that one person. And then you get hundreds and hundreds of those things and you realize this is much, much, much bigger than us. And if anything we say can be helpful to somebody, we're willing to do it.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] Yeah, there are much more fun and lucrative ways to get attention.

Jake Malouf [00:06:36] Oh, yes. Trust me.

Preparing for the Disciplinary Council

John Dehlin [00:06:43] All right, so tell us if there's any thoughts or feelings or experiences that you had between our last podcast walking into the doors of your stake center. Anything you want to update us on before we get into the actual disciplinary council itself?

Amy Malouf [00:07:01] No, I think what we discovered is pretty much took the bulk of that time, that space, and we spent a lot of time thinking about what we were going to say during the disciplinary council and what mattered. And I packed in a trip to Moab, so there was a lot of just playtime in there that I didn't. It wasn't even on my radar for a lot of the time, which was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] Okay.

Amy Malouf [00:07:22] But, yeah, so up till Tuesday, when we go in, we showed up at the church building, which was actually the church building that we've attended for the last few years. There's our meeting house, and we show up and the building is locked. There's lots of cars in the parking lot, no one walking around outside, except for two of our friends that are in one of our Mormon support groups that we have up here.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] So you didn't have a bunch of people in the parking lot to support you?

Amy Malouf [00:07:56] We didn't.

Jake Malouf [00:07:58] I debated on how we wanted to run that. I wasn't really well.

Amy Malouf [00:08:03] I wanted to be able to focus on. I actually started planning that initially, like, I'm just going to blow this thing up because I'm really upset about all this. And that was my initial reaction, but then I realized that in itself was starting to stress me out. And so I wanted to be able to just focus on what was going to happen at the council, say the words I want to say, and really have one thing on my plate instead of managing a massive party.

Jake Malouf [00:08:29] That said, we had a huge party a few days later. We did talk about that. We had an after party that blew my mind.

Amy Malouf [00:08:36] It was awesome.

Jake Malouf [00:08:37] So that's where we wanted the support.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Okay, good. So no audience spectacle? No. No parking lot spectacle for you guys.

Jake Malouf [00:08:48] One of the people that did show up, she had a nice picket sign. That was. It was really nicely done. It just said. I think I wrote it down. It just said, love to the stake president, Love to the High Council, Love to Amy and Jake. Love to those who feel hurt and marginalized. Love to beans everywhere. And they were there, but the doors were locked. Had a sign on it that said, the building is closed. There were people in the foyer and they let us in.

Amy Malouf [00:09:13] Yeah. So it felt like it was on lockdown. And there were people. I think they were expecting quite a bit more and we didn't plan quite a bit more. So anyway, we go inside and Jake was dressed nicely. He was wearing a suit and a tie, right?

Jake Malouf [00:09:30] Yeah, I wore a.

Amy Malouf [00:09:32] You wore the Mormon uniform.

Jake Malouf [00:09:33] I wore the uniform and I wore

Amy Malouf [00:09:35] pants because I hate skirts. I just really hate them.

Jake Malouf [00:09:40] I did have a beard, though.

Amy Malouf [00:09:42] Okay, so we met with our. Met with the stickers.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] Did you guys take a selfie or a picture before or after?

Amy Malouf [00:09:49] Ooh, yeah, we did. We took a picture with the picket sign, the picket of love.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Send it if you can.

Amy Malouf [00:09:59] Okay, yeah, it was a good picture. And so we go in and met with the stake president and our bishop and they said we made sure they had the paper we signed, that we're not going to record anything. And what I should have asked was I should have made one for them and made them sign that they weren't going to record it either.

Jake Malouf [00:10:20] They did sign. They all signed.

Amy Malouf [00:10:21] I never saw it.

Jake Malouf [00:10:22] Well, they said that.

Amy Malouf [00:10:23] Yeah, but we didn't get a copy of anything. But they got a copy of our signature, which is fine. And so we signed that. And the stake president says, we're not. Just want to let you know we're not going to be giving you a verdict tonight. It'll come later. And I said, well, is there any reason not to tell us tonight? And the response was, I want to think about it and pray about it. Was the response. Which. That's great. Yeah.

Jake Malouf [00:10:52] And to their credit, they really did try hard. And I think they were sincere in being very nice and cordial. They said that most, if not all the people participated in that event had been fasting and praying. And they were really taking it serious. And I believe them. I really think they were taking it serious. So it was generally a good vibe. They did ask for that non recording statement. They also said that there was a little bit of hesitation among a lot of the people in the council that they were concerned that everything that was said would be posted all over the Internet the next day, which is a valid concern. And we tried to reassure that we obviously wouldn't be breaking confidences or attaching names or trying to put them in a negative light. So we're not trying to.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Okay.

Amy Malouf [00:11:48] Yeah. They're wonderful people who have given their lives to the church and we respect them and we love them and it's not personal. Why we're leaving and how we're leaving is not personal. It's a problem we have with the organization and the hierarchy and how things are run, but it's not personal. We love these people and we tried to emphasize that and they did too. And I. The feeling's mutual on that. So that's. That was great. But there was definitely a feeling of defensiveness on both sides from our perspective and from their perspective.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] That seems natural.

Amy Malouf [00:12:28] Yeah, it just seems natural. But that's unfortunate that that is. That's the result. That's one of the fruits of this church is good people feeling defensive with their interactions with other good people. And that. That should be recognized.

Jake Malouf [00:12:43] Yeah. Kind of an analogy I was thinking of is in a lot of ways, we felt backed into a corner by being either asked to resign or participate in a council. So they back us into a corner. Anyone who knows us probably would recognize that we were not the type that likes to be backed into a corner. And so we're backing them into a corner. Yeah. And I want to be spiteful or hurtful, but it's just a natural reaction.

Amy Malouf [00:13:11] Yeah. And I think in describing the overall, what goes on like in the big picture, high level is this is just a power struggle. They had power. We'd given them our power, and we're taking it back. And they don't want us to. The corporate church wants to keep the power that they have that we gave them, and we're just taking it back because it's ours.

Jake Malouf [00:13:37] So anyway, we met with them just for a couple minutes in the bishop's office. Then we stood up, went into the high council room. Amy walked into the room first. There were 18 men. 18 men in their suits. 19, including me and Amy.

Amy Malouf [00:13:52] Yeah.

Jake Malouf [00:13:55] Just to kind of paint a picture of the room, the bishop sat on our right. Everyone was seated at this point. So it's kind of a organized circle. There's a bishop sitting to my right, the stake presidency behind a table. To our left and then the row of high councilors kind of off and to the right, two rows of them. And then the executive secretary taking notes.

Entering the Room and Facing the Council

John Dehlin [00:14:17] How did it feel to go in that room and see all those men?

Amy Malouf [00:14:22] Super serious. Like, I wanted my first reaction. I just kind of wanted to lighten the mood and make some jokes and be like, you know, I know. I don't know. Super serious. And so we started off with. And I'll get to that. How that felt. Because I told them very clearly how that felt in my first testimony of when they asked me.

Jake Malouf [00:14:44] It was a mix, though. I just kind of looked around the room there, and some people were very somber and serious and others honestly were kind of had a pleasant look and smiley.

Amy Malouf [00:14:52] Yeah, that's true.

Jake Malouf [00:14:53] It was kind of a mix of stern and smiley and pleasant and pensive and concerned all at once type thing.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Okay.

Amy Malouf [00:14:59] Whole range of emotions. So we started off with. I think he. I think the stake president read.

Jake Malouf [00:15:04] No, we had an opening prayer.

Amy Malouf [00:15:05] Oh, yeah. Opening prayer. And then he. He didn't want me to. What was it? We talked. He read the statements of, like, why we're here.

Jake Malouf [00:15:16] This is why I took notes.

Amy Malouf [00:15:18] I know I can barely remember my birthday.

Jake Malouf [00:15:21] So we had an opening prayer where they asked for wisdom and guidance from the spirit. And we'll talk about this later. But we noted that this was actually the only time during the entire council when they used the words Jesus or Christ or anything like that, except for

Amy Malouf [00:15:40] when we brought it up.

Jake Malouf [00:15:42] So that was interesting. Then they was. The prayer was the closing of the

John Dehlin [00:15:46] prayer where they said, in the name

Jake Malouf [00:15:48] of Jesus Christ, yes, that was it.

Amy Malouf [00:15:50] Okay.

Jake Malouf [00:15:54] After the opening prayer, the stake president mentioned that a letter from a witness had been provided. So that was nice. And then one of the people in the room was related to the person who wrote the witness statement. And so he was excused from the council. So he left. So that left 17 people participating in the council.

Amy Malouf [00:16:17] And then what do you read?

John Dehlin [00:16:18] I feel like they could have told that guy beforehand.

Jake Malouf [00:16:21] Well, I don't think it was intentional. I think he didn't get that statement until it was sent in an email that afternoon. So at that point, I think they just showed up.

Amy Malouf [00:16:33] Yeah, either that or it was the feeling I got. This is total speculation. I could be wrong, but the feeling I got was, check us out. We are going to be super proper and we don't want to marginalize or hurt anyone, so we're going to. It was kind of showy, really. I mean, that was my. Or it could just have been. No one sent a text message and they ran out of time. So I don't know. But if I was going to read into it, that's when I would read into it.

Jake Malouf [00:17:01] So then after that, he didn't read the witness letter. Then he read that after our statement. Then he just. They went right into this. They had a kind of a folder with some printouts in there of some of our Facebook statements.

Amy Malouf [00:17:17] Evidence.

Jake Malouf [00:17:17] The evidence. And they presented the statements that they were using for their evidence against us, or I don't know about if against us is the right word, but the statements they were providing to justify the disciplinary council. And so I have those statements here. I have them verbatim.

Amy Malouf [00:17:35] Yeah, let's read them.

Jake Malouf [00:17:37] So this, the first one that they used was. He called it My infamous thirteen Articles of Faith. It was a post that I made back in the end of February in which I had taken the 13 articles of faith and kind of rewrote them as I understood them.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] You mentioned that in our first interview. Give us an example of some of them.

Jake Malouf [00:17:59] So I'll read the one. And I should point out that that particular post received six likes and five comments. Okay, I don't know.

Amy Malouf [00:18:09] I've had more comments about what I ate for breakfast on a Facebook post, but that's infamous.

Jake Malouf [00:18:16] That was the main one that they used. The quote they used specifically from that was, I think from the. I'm not sure which number, but anyway, because growing up, I memorized these. I still have them all memorized. Every time I'd go on a hike with my dad, we'd recite them. So they're kind of ingrained. But I rewrote them. And this was an important part of my transition. And as I go back and read what I wrote back then, I actually don't necessarily agree with everything I wrote, but it's what I wrote then and it's what I believed then. And it was part of my transition.

Jake Malouf [00:18:47] And so what I did write then was. It's actually right here. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints represents the Gentile Church spoken of in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. At one point, it was endorsed by God as the only true and living church upon the face of the earth. God removed that endorsement when the church rejected the fullness of the gospel, was put under condemnation and the fullness of God's priesthood was removed. The church may yet have an important part in God's plan, but it is currently in a state of apostasy.

Jake Malouf [00:19:23] So those were. That was the main statement they had beef with. And you would have had to click it, open up the document, read through it about 3/4 of the way through to see that.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] So you basically claim the church is an apostasy.

Jake Malouf [00:19:36] Yeah, I called them out on. They said that, you know, they're telling us we're in a state of apostasy, leaving truth, and we're saying the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] That's kind of what Rock Waterman and Deborah Snuffer. And it was similar.

Jake Malouf [00:19:48] Yeah, it was very. Yeah, it was very along those lines. I'm not sure I would write that now, but that's what I wrote and that's what I posted. And so it is what it is

John Dehlin [00:20:00] that's important because when I, when I, I had made statements from years prior that they brought into my disciplinary council and they were brought in sort of out of context at some of my darkest and lowest moments in my faith crisis. What was curious to me is my stake president didn't care about what I thought or believe. Now he was very happy to just take these out of context statements and then hold them against me. And it was just, it was kind of weird because he didn't care about what I believed at the time.

Jake Malouf [00:20:31] Yeah. And they did ask us if we still stand by that statement. And I kind of explained a little bit that that was part of my transition and I wrote that. But I do stand by. If you look at a textbook definition of apostasy, yes, I would put the church in that state because I don't feel like they're truly seeking truth. So. Yeah. And I said, yeah, I'll stand by that one.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] Cool.

Jake Malouf [00:20:55] The other one they said was a Facebook comment that I made. Again, they didn't incriminate Amy at all, which is a bummer.

Amy Malouf [00:21:03] They didn't even look up any of my quotes that are a little more inflammatory. But they don't care.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] Why would they?

Jake Malouf [00:21:10] This is the only other.

Amy Malouf [00:21:11] Why would they? I'm a woman. Doesn't matter.

Jake Malouf [00:21:14] The only other one they mentioned is there just two was a Facebook comment that was buried within a post that Amy had made. And this one had received. It had received like something like 10 likes and like 42 comments. So it was a little bit more discussion on this one. But buried within that, someone had asked the question and curious, have you and Amy left the church? To which I responded, yes, Amy and I no longer affiliate ourselves with the LDS Church as of February 2016. Although we have no beefs with anyone who chooses to remain, this has been the most challenging Surprising and liberating decision of our lives. Cheers. So those were the statements that brought us in.

Amy Malouf [00:21:58] So then he asked if I agreed with Jake's statements. And I said, I don't disagree with those. They're not my words. But yeah, I believe the church has gone astray from the teachings of Christ in many ways. And I believe that they're also in line with the teachings of Christ in many ways.

Amy Malouf [00:22:20] It's not a black and white statement for me, but yeah. Do I think they're causing harm? Yes, I do. And can it be fixed? Yes, it can. And then he said, okay, well, we'd like to hear from you, Amy. And I said, great. We have a thing that we've written together, a document we've co authored that really I think will help understand our reasons for disbelief in the claims of the church and what we believe and where we are. And I think I'd like to read that. He said, okay, well, we really want to hear you speak from your heart.

Amy Malouf [00:22:57] Okay, I can speak from my heart. And then we're going to read this. So I started with, let's just look around the room here. Who's in the room? A bunch of men and one woman. And the men in the room feel like they have authority over me. If it were switched and any one of you were the minority in this room, if you were the lone man in a group of women who, you know, those women believe they have authority over you, do you feel like you would be understood? Do you feel like your challenges and the things you've dealt with in your life would be understood and that you would be.

Amy Malouf [00:23:41] That your voice would be heard and that there would be empathy and said, because I don't think you would. I think you would feel outnumbered. And so let's start with that. It's just out of balance, and that's a problem. Sexism within this church exists, and it has hurt me and it hurt my family, and it has hurt.

Amy Malouf [00:24:08] And let me help you understand my, you know, how I came to understand this. And I talked about my, you know, going through the temple when I was 19 because I wanted further light and knowledge, because that's what I was told I would receive. And what I received was the understanding that I will never be equal to my husband in power and authority that I need to submit to. I need to hearken unto my husband that I didn't even have yet. And that. That right there at 19, put distance between my future spouse that I hadn't even met and the church had harmed my Marriage before it even started and understanding that, and 20 years later, finally having clarity on why that felt so wrong.

Amy Malouf [00:24:59] But I had to submit anyway, or chose to submit because there really was no good option out and I hadn't wrapped my head around that. But having that clarity now, I'm able to verbalize it, but it took a long time to understand why it felt so wrong, because it is wrong.

Amy Malouf [00:25:17] Any degree of authority over any other human based on gender is unapologetic sexism. And that's in our church, and we have to admit that that's there. And then I went on to say that your wives and your daughters have been harmed by this. They may not realize they've been harmed by this. They may not verbalize that they have. They may fight against it and say, no, I haven't.

Amy Malouf [00:25:42] I love my husband, who's a priesthood leader, and I love the authority he has. But they have been harmed because they are not equal and they never will be within this church. And I said, that's something you need to realize that exists, and there's a level of ownership that you need to have with that, because unless you are doing something to stop it, you are complicit with that harm.

Amy Malouf [00:26:05] I didn't really mince words with my intentions because that's how I feel. And it's taken me a long time to figure this out, and it shouldn't have, but I've been stunted because of these doctrines that are false, and I'm rejecting them from my life.

Amy Malouf [00:26:20] And I really don't remember what else I said after that, but I probably could have kept saying words. Those are the ones I remember.

Jake Malouf [00:26:27] No, that was about it.

Amy Malouf [00:26:27] Was that about it? And then we went into reading the statement, and, you know, you could have heard a pin drop in that room. It was. There's nothing to say because they have no ammo on that because they're men. They don't understand it. They haven't felt it. Nothing to say there.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] Beautiful.

Amy Malouf [00:26:44] But it felt good.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] Powerful.

Amy Malouf [00:26:46] Yeah.

Jake Malouf [00:26:46] Yeah, it was powerful. I mean, I felt something in them prior to that. They did ask us the one question about our beliefs. They did ask. Again, like I said, there was no mention of do you believe in the gospel? Or what are your feelings about Jesus Christ or Buddha or anything? They didn't ask any of that. The only question they asked about our beliefs was, do we believe that President Monson is the prophet for the church? And to which we responded, I don't see any evidence by which I can make that judgment.

Amy Malouf [00:27:23] So no not to say that he couldn't receive a revelation for the church, but he hasn't because he hasn't published any. So there's nothing there.

Jake Malouf [00:27:34] He's a good guy, has good advice sometimes. And then we went basically right into the statement, and I took turns reading, if it's all right. We did take time. Turns kind of reading back and forth. But I think for this podcast, I think it's important that we just read it. We'll read it how we read it in there because we put a lot of time into it. And of course, in retrospect, we probably would have changed some words or edited stuff, and it's not a perfect document, but this is what we read, so we'll read it.

John Dehlin [00:28:01] Let's do it.

Amy Malouf [00:28:04] And just to start off with, before we do, we take turns reading it. And Jake was reading it purposefully, kind of slowly to let the words sink in, because. Oh, and we'd printed off, like, 18 copies and sat them on the table there, of which no one touched them, but they sat there and they probably left untouched.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] That's powerful. They probably just chucked them in the dumpster.

Amy Malouf [00:28:32] Yeah. We told them they can burn them or take them home and highlight them or whatever they want to do. Either one's fine.

Jake Malouf [00:28:38] But we provided them.

Amy Malouf [00:28:39] Here they are. Yeah. And then. So they were. Should we talk about the rushing afterwards or before?

Jake Malouf [00:28:47] Well, let's just read it. Let's just read this thing. I'll start. Because I started, and Amy will elbow me when she wants to chime in. Or maybe she won't. I can read the whole thing.

Amy Malouf [00:28:56] We'll see.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] Wait, you guys did take turns.

Amy Malouf [00:29:00] We did take turns.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Do that.

Jake Malouf [00:29:02] It was very much, do it.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Do it.

Reading Their Prepared Statement

Jake Malouf [00:29:05] So first. First, we would like to acknowledge the time you are taking to meet with us tonight. Both of us. Oh, sorry, I'm reader. First, we would like to acknowledge the time you are taking to meet with us tonight. Most of us are very busy.

Jake Malouf [00:29:22] Next, we want to address a misperception. The summons letter that was delivered to us last week states, it saddens me you want to have a church disciplinary council. To clarify, we did not request a disciplinary council. We were presented with the option of formally resigning our membership or participating in a disciplinary council.

Jake Malouf [00:29:47] We felt formal resignation was premature for us, as will be explained later in this document. And you chose to move forward with the disciplinary council? Although we do not condone the premise or rationale for this disciplinary council, we are willingly participating and have reasons to hope it will be beneficial for all of us.

Jake Malouf [00:30:07] We understand, as it has been explained to us, that this Council is not a conventional legal court with a typical presentation of prosecution and defense. We also recognize the outcome of this Council as all but a foregone conclusion.

Jake Malouf [00:30:21] He did interrupt there and said, well, no, we're going to think about it first. And so I said, well, that's great, but it had been explained earlier to us that it pretty well was a foregone conclusion. Nevertheless, it is important for us to accurately and honestly represent our perspective.

Jake Malouf [00:30:38] It is not our intention to preach to you, nor will we elaborate on the doctrines and history of the Church that we believe to be deleterious or dubious. We are not providing the many references that support our views during this meeting. However, we recognize that some of you may be interested in this information and and we would be happy to provide it later if requested.

Jake Malouf [00:31:00] Some of you may view our words, actions and attitudes as being arrogant, prideful, or haughty. We request that you suspend such judgment until you have walked in our shoes. We are no more intelligent or inspired than any of you, and we have never tried to imply that. We just hope you will listen with an open mind while carefully considering the important distinctions between arrogance and confidence.

Jake Malouf [00:31:29] First, we would like the Council to have a brief context of who we are and what our relationship with the church has been. This is important in light of a current narrative accepted by many church members and propagated by church leadership, including the recent statement made by Dieter Uchtdorf during the General women's conference on September 24, 2016, in reference to losing faith in the church. He states, those who are impatient, uncommitted, or careless may find faith to be elusive. Those who are easily discouraged or distracted may hardly experience it.

Jake Malouf [00:32:07] I thought about reading it in his accent, but I didn't. Similarly, in the most recent General Conference, Melvin Ballard stated, for some, Christ's invitation to believe and remain continues to be hard or difficult to accept. He then downplayed the rationale of many who are leaving the LDS Church by suggesting their struggles hinge on not understanding specific church policies or teachings, concerns about church history, imperfections in some members or church leaders, difficulty in living a religion that requires so much, or weariness in well doing.

Jake Malouf [00:32:43] He then asked the question, where will you go? Implying that there are no paths to truth and happiness outside of full fellowship with the LDS Church. Statements like this are manipulative and represent a gross misunderstanding of why many people are choosing to leave this church. Anyone who thinks we have left the church because of sin, laziness, misunderstanding Lack of commitment, offense, carelessness or discouragement does not know us.

Amy Malouf [00:33:19] We were born into the Church and raised by loving parents, dear friends and a caring community. Many of our ancestors walked across the plains to the Salt Lake Valley. Others were modern pioneers as they chose to join the church. In more recent generations, we grew up in the Church as committed members intent on enduring to the end so we may obtain what we believed to be the highest degree of celestial glory. We faithfully earned our Young Woman's Medallion Eagle Scout and zealously promoted the Church and its teachings with our friends and neighbors. We married in the temple, made what we perceived to be covenants with God, fasted, prayed and paid tithing.

Amy Malouf [00:33:57] We studied and pondered and memorized Spirit Scriptures and approved church material with commitment. We have had powerful and personal experiences that have confirmed and continue to confirm our belief in powers beyond ourselves and their role in our well being. We have sought to improve upon our talents and provide meaningful service to our children, our employers and our neighbors. Between the two of us, we have three Bachelor's degrees, three Master's degrees and numerous certifications and professional affiliations. Our assignments and contributions to the church have not been insignificant. Class President, Seminary Council, full time missionary service teachers, Advisors, Young women President, Relief Society Counselor, Branch President, Stake Youth Conference Directors, Elders Quorum President, Ward Mission Leader, Choir members, Piano player, Scoutmaster, Bishopric Counselor, Trek MA and pa, countless camps and high adventures, and many, many others.

Amy Malouf [00:34:47] In short, we were in it to win it again. We want to emphasize we do not share these things to highlight ourselves, but rather to underscore our efforts and level of commitment to what we believed was God's only true Church on the earth. This is not to say we always understood or agreed with all the policies, customs and traditions of the Church. However, our questions and concerns were easily dismissed and often with the oft repeated mantra that the Church is perfect but the people are not. As young adults, we were aware of many of the documents and statements promoted by people that were labeled as anti Mormon, such as institutional racism, sexism, polygamy, policies and doctrines swayed by political and societal pressures, polyandry, marginalization of homosexuals, cult like behavior accompanied with secret oaths made under duress, groupthink behaviors, corporatism, translation by staring into a hat with the Seer stone instead of the Urim and Thummim, misappropriation of finances, various conflicting authoritative statements made by church leaders and prophets, alteration of Scriptures and temple ceremonies to fit the current narrative, lack of transparency, the Adam God theory, blood atonement, vows of vengeance, the non literal translation of the Book of Abraham and many others.

Amy Malouf [00:36:00] We familiarized ourselves with these viewpoints and then quickly discounted them with scriptures and statements from more orthodox sources. While seeking to defend what we believed to be a more accurate representation of God's kingdom, our trusting acceptance of revisionist history was embarrassingly disputed.

Amy Malouf [00:36:17] Through all this, we had to acknowledge that most if not all of these claims about the Church were based on publicly available historical and contemporary information. Some of these sources were more credible than others. Imagine our discontent when the recent Essays available through LDS.org revealed that many of these claims that were previously labeled anti Mormon lies were in fact accurate and are confirmed by Church sources. These church produced essays denounce and disavow doctrines that had previously been declared by prophets, seers and revelators as eternal and unchangeable. How were we to believe that the prophet cannot lead us astray when official Church history itself confirms that they already have?

Amy Malouf [00:36:57] We began to clearly understand the folly of trusting in the arm of flesh. The Church teaches that we should pray for God's guidance, seek counsel from our church leaders, and that through the Spirit we may know the truth of all things. We were confident that such an approach would vindicate the church and all its claims as the only true and living church with God's priesthood authority. After all, well respected church leader J. Reuben Clark wrote, if we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.

Amy Malouf [00:37:27] We desperately wanted to validate the Church and its teachings because it was such a foundational component of our lives and formed so much of our social network. We had heard the horror stories spoken over the pulpit of what happens when people leave the church, and we found it difficult to imagine a meaningful and successful life without it.

Jake Malouf [00:37:46] So with this context in mind, we began what was for us an unprecedented investigation into all aspects of our religion in a sincere attempt to validate its truthfulness. Over the past few years, we have given literally thousands upon thousands of hours to studying, pondering, meditating, listening, praying, and considering the information that is available to all who are interested in finding it. We dove into the scriptures conference talks, essays, articles, blogs, podcasts, discussions, forums, books, and even personal meetings with apostles and leaders from various derivations of Mormonism.

Jake Malouf [00:38:22] We searched, pondered, and prayed with sincerity. In the spirit of legitimate research. We intentionally did not limit ourselves only to material that is approved by the LDS Church and its correlation committee. Finally, based on our desire to remain intellectually, emotionally and spiritually honest, we had to concede that the claims to authority and some of the fundamental doctrines upheld by the LDS Church are simply not true.

Jake Malouf [00:38:51] We also believe anyone who chooses to genuinely walk this path would come to the same conclusions that we and thousands of others already have, namely, that the church is not what it claims to be. It does not have any more right to divine approval and authority than many of the other denominations that make the exact same claim.

Jake Malouf [00:39:12] And if at any point this was God's one true church, it no longer is. Sadly, many of the beautiful teachings that focus on love, kindness, forgiveness, personal inspiration, obedience to the laws of heaven, freedom of choice have been supplanted by two overarching and all encompassing doctrines, namely, that the prophet will not and cannot lead the members astray and that dutiful obedience to the counsel of the man who presides over you is more important than following your conscience.

Jake Malouf [00:39:47] Church members are often told to obey the counsel of their leaders, even if it is misguided, because they will receive blessings for their obedience. These two doctrines are promoted while ignoring or misapplying many of the revelations and scriptures this church claims to believe in. We have been asked to trust in the arm of flesh and just obey the counsel given, even if it's wrong.

Jake Malouf [00:40:09] In February 2016, we made the decision to step away from the LDS Church and withhold any official support from what is legally chartered as the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Jake Malouf [00:40:23] We view this decision as an act of personal integrity. We carefully weighed the pros and cons of church attendance and realized that the scale tipped in favor of the cons for our family and many others. Very real and damaging consequences have come as a result of deleterious church practices and teachings, and we no longer wish to deliberately expose ourselves to such things. Institutional racism, sexism, marginalization of the LGBT community, promotion of a rape culture, and emotional stunting are just a few examples.

Amy Malouf [00:41:03] We will not and have not made any attempt to privately push our views on anyone. The public forum, however, remains public. We reserve the right, the same right as anyone, to post our opinions. We will likely continue to publicly share some of our thoughts and opinions about church policies and practices. Not because we're trying to embarrass the church or belittle the sincere beliefs of its members, but because we know we are helping many believing members who are struggling within this church and those who are dealing with the challenges of a faith transition. We sincerely believe our posts are doing more harm than good. More good than harm.

Amy Malouf [00:41:35] Sorry, that was a close one. Otherwise we would not post hundreds of people have already reached out privately to express their deepest gratitude and support for our willingness to be open and talk publicly about these issues because they cannot or choose not to be vocal themselves, often for some very understandable reasons. These are real people who are isolated and suffering in silence because of the teachings and the oppressive environment within the LDS Church. Family relationships have been strengthened, depression has been alleviated, and people dealing with suicidal ideation have found renewed hope and community when they realize they are not alone because people like us have chosen to speak up despite the consequences.

Amy Malouf [00:42:11] We have talked with many people who are relieved to find someone in whom they can confide their deepest thoughts without fear of rebuttal, judgment, attempted correction or disciplinary action. The types of people who are leaving the institutional church should be noted. Many of these people have served in prominent positions within the Church and are a high caliber individuals and families. They, like us, have not taken this decision lightly. These people include stake presidents, mission presidents, Area 70 Relief Society presidents, bishops, leaders of of church youth organizations.

Amy Malouf [00:42:43] We are keenly aware of scriptural prophecies about the latter day sifting of the wheat and the tares that even the elect will be deceived. We should all remind ourselves that residence in some eternal glory is not for us to judge, and we are confident that any supposed reward in heaven has nothing to do with our institutional affiliation.

Amy Malouf [00:43:02] Lasting power and authority is acquired by maintaining our honor and by doing our very best with the information and resources available. The Book of Mormon itself, regardless of its authenticity or not, states that even God would cease to be God without His honor. We hope you will not question our honor or authenticity in voicing our opinion about the Church and its policies. Even the God promoted by the LDS Church would not condemn us because we know our hearts are pure. We have fully acknowledged that we have much to learn and so we will continue to do our best with the information we we acquire.

Addressing the Apostasy Charges Directly

Amy Malouf [00:43:35] We need to address the definition of what we have been accused of Apostasy. The publicly accessible LDS Church website defines apostasy as when individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the Gospel. The Church approved Guide to the Scriptures defines it as turning away from the truth by individuals, by individuals, the Church, or entire nations. If these are the definitions by which we are accused, we unequivocally enter the plea of not guilty. We are not guilty of any sin or misdeed that would warrant such a label. We could, however, justifiably levy the charge of apostasy against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints using the very resources that this Church claims to believe in, but that is not the purpose of this council.

Amy Malouf [00:44:23] Alternatively, the closely guarded Handbook of Instructions Volume 1 provides five different definitions of apostasy, none of which make any mention of truth or the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Here are the definitions accompanied by our plea in reverse order. Number five Formally join another church and advocate its teachings. Not guilty we are in a same gender marriage. Not guilty Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sex, such as those that advocate plural marriage after being corrected by their bishop or higher authority. Not guilty Persist in teaching as church doctrine information that is not church doctrine. After they have been corrected by their bishop or higher authority.

Amy Malouf [00:45:03] Not guilty Repeatedly act in clear, open, deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders. Perhaps this accusation is questionable, but assuming that a handful of posts to our family and friends on Facebook expressing some of our concerns with the direction of the Church constitutes repeated public opposition, we are guilty as charged. But this is a trumped up charge. We have never claimed to turn our backs on the Gospel of Jesus Christ and we have made every attempt to act with integrity in all that we do. It should also be noted that posting our opinions about church policies, pointing out a lack of evidence by which to judge if the Church is led by prophets, and briefly mentioning our non affiliation with the corporate LDS Church in an obscure Facebook post places us in the same category with the same consequences as murderers, predators and child molesters. Do you really believe this is a fair judgment?

Jake Malouf [00:46:00] We've been asked why we haven't just resigned. Some have even requested that we resign. It is true that we no longer consider ourselves members of the LDS Church, and we would eventually like our names removed from the rosters.

Jake Malouf [00:46:14] But excommunicating people like us simply marginalizes us from certain family and community members and causes unnecessary pain to those who adhere to the doctrines of the LDS Church, such as our parents. Similarly, voluntarily resigning our membership before our family and friends have had a chance to process our decision causes similar damage to these relationships. There is nothing about this proceeding that promotes family unity or wellness within the church.

Jake Malouf [00:46:43] Rather than resign prematurely, we have agreed to participate in this disciplinary council to shed light on a process that we and many others believe should not occur. Under these circumstances, it has been suggested that we should be excommunicated as an act of mercy to prevent us from breaking our covenants.

Jake Malouf [00:47:02] First, we are not breaking any covenants that we believe to be legitimately divine. Second, the Temple covenants are made under circumstances of duress and coercion. The actual covenants are not explained in any detail before the ordinance. Unlike the appropriately and specifically detailed explanations regarding the baptismal covenant, by simply showing up to participate in temple ordinances, an individual is essentially committing to the entire process.

Jake Malouf [00:47:34] People are given less than 10 seconds to think about these covenants and their implications before accepting them. The only other option is to leave while under the watchful eyes of trusted, endowed and committed parents and other respected adults filling the room.

Jake Malouf [00:47:50] This method of imposing covenants upon people is manipulative and coercive. Any promises or covenants made under these circumstances are not eternally binding. Third, by this logic, should you not excommunicate every member of the church who has doubts about its authenticity? At least 10 million members do not have or want a current temple recommend. Many others are far more outspoken than us. Have disciplinary councils been convened or scheduled for all of them?

Jake Malouf [00:48:22] Rather, it seems like the primary purpose of this particular council is to to safeguard the purity and good name of the church. As per the handbook, you likely see us as a legitimate threat to the image of the LDS Church.

Jake Malouf [00:48:37] Ironically, the purity of the church you are trying to protect is easily brought into question when people like us are summoned for the most intense form of discipline the church can produce. Perhaps you believe the purpose of this council is to protect the innocent.

Jake Malouf [00:48:52] But what many in church leadership fail to recognize is that we are not the threat. Not once have we pushed our ideas on anyone or aspired to some agenda to damage the church. People like us are not suffering from a faith crisis so much as the church is suffering from a truth crisis. The church is sinking its own ship. We are just tossing out lifeboats.

Jake Malouf [00:49:17] The outpouring of communication we receive from members all over the globe due to a recent podcast interview with us on Mormon Stories confirmed our understanding that thousands upon thousands of church members have had experiences similar to ours but are in agony because there's not a safe place within the orthodox LDS community to discuss their concerns and questions. Daughters are not talking to mothers. Fathers are not talking to their sons. Spouse Spouses are not talking with each other about the most important issues on their mind because they fear the social implications of being labeled as a doubter or, even worse, an apostate.

Jake Malouf [00:49:56] This presents them with three quietly remain in the church, quietly leave the church, or voice their concerns under threat of disciplinary counsel. We will not break confidences, but we will tell you that there are many active members in this stake and thousands elsewhere who share our views silently. They do, however, come to us with their concerns. Ironically, they have found the most comfort, love, and Support by the very people this church is labeling as apostate.

Amy Malouf [00:50:32] In the podcast, we made the statement that other friends and organizations had our back more than the church ever did. This deserves some clarification. What we were trying to say in the most gentle way we could is that other people in other organizations helped us more during our transition period than the church did. This is specific to the past couple of years. Prior to that, the church and our friends within the church have always been very supportive. It's accurate to state that the church structure and many of our friends that are in the church did not provide the support we needed. As we were weighing the most difficult and significant experience of our lives, attempts to fix, change, accuse, or censor us were not helpful.

Amy Malouf [00:51:12] All we needed was an understanding and sympathetic ear. That said, we understand that many people in the church would have had our back during this difficult time, but their pain was very real and this made healthy relationships difficult. This is largely due to the belief that our shared experiences occurred solely because of the church as opposed to through the church.

Amy Malouf [00:51:33] So when we step away from the church, some interpret it as personal rejection. We recognize that this would be a very painful message if that is how it is received, but that was never our intent. We have no desire to close any doors on any relationships, and we are not offended or upset by anyone.

Amy Malouf [00:51:50] And please understand that we deeply value our friendships within this church. Past experiences, relationships, camp outs, float trips, hikes, talks, memories and spiritual experiences are all remembered. Of course we didn't forget them, nor are we trying to conveniently diminish them so we can justify our current narrative. On the contrary, we have carefully considered them and are simply applying them to a different framework. That said, we believe it is not productive to try to convince someone of anything based on personal feelings, promptings, or impressions. These things cannot be quantified or debated.

Amy Malouf [00:52:25] They are open to different and equally valid interpretations. Testifying of these spiritually validating experiences is useful as an expression of belief, but they are not a useful tool when discussing facts. The beliefs of our friends within the church are just as valid as our beliefs. Realize, however, that if our personal integrity is brought into question, we will defend ourselves. We have often wondered why some people feel justified in personally labeling or accusing individuals like us who leave the church. But it's somehow not okay for us to ask general questions or express our beliefs about the organization.

Amy Malouf [00:53:00] Which approach causes the most harm to relationships? We have chosen to investigate our questions about the church with the same intellectual and spiritual zeal that we gave to being members of the church. After weighing the evidence available, we found that the truth claims simply do not hold up.

Jake Malouf [00:53:20] Other than that, we are the same people and consider ourselves just as perceptive, understanding, and well intended as we have always been. We are clearly not any more intelligent than people who choose to stay in the church. That said, not everyone has studied the same material or had the same experiences as we have, and we haven't had the same experiences as others. It is okay for intelligent people to have different views.

Jake Malouf [00:53:44] Sadly, when people wrap their identity and their relationships so closely to the LDS Church, they often view it as a personal affront when someone they love no longer goes to church. Please understand that what we are doing is not a personal attack against any of you. We love you. We have hiked, camped, cried, prayed, laughed, sang, and been with you in many meaningful and important ways. None of that is lost on this decision. We will gladly continue to embrace your friendship on the street streets, in the stores, in the mountains, and in our home.

Jake Malouf [00:54:17] We are grateful for the growth and experiences we have acquired during our membership with the LDS Church, but recognize these experiences occurred through the church, not because of it. This is an important distinction. We are blessed with many good friends who love and support us regardless of church affiliation, and we look forward to continuing a productive life. We have much to learn as we work within the global community to promote peace and prosperity.

Jake Malouf [00:54:44] So why are we being brought before a disciplinary council when others are not? Many members are no longer active participants in the LDS Church. In fact, the vast majority of members on the rosters no longer wish to affiliate. Some of these people quietly slip away.

Jake Malouf [00:55:00] Some resign their membership. This is the last page, by the way. Others choose to remain vocal about the church for years, but most are never brought before a disciplinary council. If we are accused as apostates and excommunicated, you should carefully consider the implications. It will likely be much more difficult for the church than it will be for us.

Jake Malouf [00:55:24] You need to understand that by doing this to us, you are sending a clear message that honest investigators of truth should not voice their concerns publicly or privately because somebody might rat them out. Instead, they are encouraged to silently and obediently adhere to the council of an authoritarian hierarchy.

Jake Malouf [00:55:44] Some are uncomfortable when we compare the 15 million members of the church to the 25 million people of North Korea. But there are many strong parallels that should be considered. We acknowledge that you probably feel pain and sorrow and likely attribute these feelings to our choices.

Jake Malouf [00:56:03] We believe that the teachings of the LDS Church and other churches like it have conditioned people to feel this way, in contrast, you should believe us when we say we are sincerely happy with our chosen path. We have found it to be immensely beneficial. It is true that we have had to process feelings of betrayal and disappointment. But we are not angry or living lives of bitterness.

Jake Malouf [00:56:27] Our lives are not perfect because we left the church, nor do we expect them to be. But it is fair to say we are thriving more now than ever. There is much joy and love in our lives. There are many who reside within the boundaries of the Anchorage Stake who are part of a healthy and thriving post Mormon transitioning Mormon support network.

Jake Malouf [00:56:49] Here is a message from one of them. Dear friends, I think we are more alike than different. We all seek to live our lives purposefully and with integrity. Hopefully, we are always willing to change for the better when truth presents itself.

Closing Remarks to the Council

Jake Malouf [00:57:07] If ever any of you need to talk, I am available. I leave you with hope that we may all be happy, we may all be healthy, we may all be safe, and our lives unfold with ease and contentment, peace, joy and love.

Jake Malouf [00:57:22] You are about to deliberate on the outcome of this council and decide, as you suppose, what will be our future fate within the church and perhaps the eternities. We understand this may feel like a very difficult and solemn matter. You have every legal right to do what you believe is necessary in regards to our membership status with the LDS Church. However, we want you to understand very clearly that you do not have any moral authority over our lives, nor can you take away anything that is real regarding our relationship with God, our commitment to truth, or our future progression.

Jake Malouf [00:58:02] You might think you do. You might even think you know you do, but you don't. That said, we look forward to seeing you again. In fact, we would love to meet up in a more congenial atmosphere for a friendly debrief. The first round is on us. We give you our love and wish you the best. Jacob, Amy, Jessica and Benjamin Maloof, our children, wanted to be attached to that as well.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] Wow. I gotta clap. Standing. What a great letter. I think a lot of people are going to feel uplifted and validated by that letter. Nice work.

Amy Malouf [00:58:43] Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of put everything into that. So we read that and then we

Jake Malouf [00:58:49] actually got stopped halfway through. And he was like. They were kind of getting agitated because it took a long time to read it. And he's like. And I was reading it. Yeah. He's like, can you just have Amy keep reading? She's reading faster. And he said, I was planning on Giving you guys 15 or 20 minutes and you're already More than that.

Amy Malouf [00:59:09] We got stuff to do, we got somewhere to go.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] It's your eternal salvation and you get about 20 minutes.

Jake Malouf [00:59:15] That's what I told him. I said, hey, hold on, we're about halfway through this. You're deliberating on what you think is a very important decision. We're going to take our time. And so they backed off after that.

John Dehlin [00:59:28] They gave me an hour, which is weird.

Amy Malouf [00:59:31] Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean that's what we ended up taking, was just about that.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] But hurrying along was the best they could give in response to that.

Amy Malouf [00:59:42] You hurry this up. We got busy, busy, busy.

Jake Malouf [00:59:45] So after that they did read or they did. They didn't really have many comments after that. He did say if anyone had any questions. I did note that he gave about a three second pause for people to ask questions and no one did. So they were done.

Amy Malouf [00:59:59] There was one, wasn't there?

Jake Malouf [01:00:00] No, that was after.

Amy Malouf [01:00:01] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:00:02] He took notes.

Jake Malouf [01:00:04] Yeah, and then I took notes. And then he read the witness statement, which is a really. And actually this meant a lot to us. I hope he listens sometime. But you know, super nice guy.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] It was in favor of you.

Jake Malouf [01:00:19] He was in favor of us.

Amy Malouf [01:00:20] Remember, in good standing, super smart guy that has, you know, given his life to the church and very devoted, but also very open minded and his like, I have a ton of respect for this man.

Jake Malouf [01:00:36] So he provided a two page statement which the stake president read and was mostly just kind of more of a character validation of like, hey, these are good people. There's got to be a better way than excommunicating type thing. So it was nice to have his support. And then we also let them know that we kind of understood, oh yeah, this was important.

Amy Malouf [01:00:58] The comment that one guy.

Jake Malouf [01:00:59] Yeah, there was one question because one guy then kind of one of the high council members piped up and rose his hand, said, hey, I do have one question. And so we asked something along the lines, I didn't write it down exactly, but are you trying to change the church or something like that?

Amy Malouf [01:01:15] And so I responded first to that and I said, well, yeah, in the same way that all of you are trying to change the church, we've covenanted to building up the kingdom of God on the earth and the establishment of Zion. Absolutely.

Amy Malouf [01:01:29] That's what I'm trying and giving everything to try to get it to become and to be of one heart and one mind. There's a lot of progress that we need to make. So in a way, yes, I'm. That's yeah. And one of the ways we've been doing this is we see a problem and say, well, what can be done? How can we help with this? And I think I talked about in the podcast before my feelings about not getting to go on really cool camp outs and hikes and things. And a few years ago, I think it's been going for five years now. Our stake has a really great program for the 15 year olds called the Fourth Year Hike that we go. And they kind of gave this over to me as my baby.

Jake Malouf [01:02:11] It was your idea?

Amy Malouf [01:02:12] No, it was someone else's idea. I'd had it, but then someone else pushed it through and then they recruited me to lead it. So we take the girls on a three day hike, cover about 30 miles. Blood, sweat, tears, and it's one of the best campouts I've ever led consistently. And the girls love it. And so that was one of the ways that, yeah, I was trying to change the church and, and people love it and they're grateful for it and this is the thing they talk about and they're counting excited for when they're 15 and they get to go on this hike. So yeah.

Jake Malouf [01:02:46] And then I think at that point I kind of chimed in and said, well, that's kind of what we did do. And I think at this point though, we have no intentions, nor are we trying to be some crusader to change this particular institution because I feel like we've done what we can and we're not trying to do that. Really the only reason at this point why we might be more vocal than they want us to be is because we've recognized that it's been a huge benefit to a lot of people around us just to. Just to be willing to stick our necks out and let people.

Jake Malouf [01:03:18] We could spend the next 10 hours just telling you stories of people opening up their hearts to us, which are just heart wrenching, but it's been really, really cool to see that. So I know we're helping and I'm sorry if some people are offended or hurt by all this, but I know it's doing more good than harm.

Jake Malouf [01:03:36] We also let them know that we understood some of their concerns that this would be probably on the Internet and because they were pretty gun shy, not a lot of talk going on. And so we just reassured them that we don't want to. We wouldn't be attaching names or breaking confidence,

Amy Malouf [01:03:54] but we did very clearly tell them we were planning on talking about it.

Jake Malouf [01:03:57] Yeah, so we told them we'd be doing this. But at this point, I think this is an important part. The stake president seemed pretty skeptical at that point. And he expressed that it is hard for him to accept that what we're doing isn't personal because he felt. Because as I mentioned in the last. The interview before, before we were summoned for disciplinary council, we did record it. We went in there with our phones recorded and that came to light in the podcast. And he was hurt by that. He felt betrayed.

Amy Malouf [01:04:32] And we explained that and he understood already legally, that he knew we had legal. That we have legal right to do

Jake Malouf [01:04:38] that, but he just didn't understand why we felt like we needed to. And we tried to explain that it's. It was not a personal affront against him as our friend because we go back ways with him, but it was in the context of that meeting. He was our stake president and that we are the ones being called in. We didn't request any of this. We're the ones kind of getting called into a corner. We're the ones that. And not them. None of the people in that room have been antagonistic towards us, but many others have. And we've been called all sorts of names and we've been attacked quite literally. And so I think. Just trying to explain that we're just trying to keep track of the events surrounding our lives right now. And I'm sorry if recording that conversation offended you, but that was not our intent.

Amy Malouf [01:05:24] Yeah. And a couple conversations back with our state president, he said, well, what do you want me to do? And we said, we'd like you to leave us alone. We would like to live our lives in peace, make our decisions in peace without jurisdiction from you. We don't want to be disciplined. We want to. Please leave us alone. And they didn't. So we're not going to roll over and play dead either.

John Dehlin [01:05:56] And just in your defense, both with Kate Kelly and myself, we felt like the church explicitly misrepresented what went on in those disciplinary councils and what the reasons were and what was going on. And if we had not recorded that, we would not have had. I don't know what Kate did, but I would not have had any protection for the misrepresentation. So I think I can understand why someone would want to record that, those proceedings.

Amy Malouf [01:06:25] Yeah, I would have. Yeah, I would have loved to record the actual council. But, you know, we're honest and we told them we wouldn't. So that's how we. That's how we chose to follow that one.

Jake Malouf [01:06:37] So after that we.

Amy Malouf [01:06:39] But. And also, I think it should be Noted. What do they have to hide? If everything behind those doors is loving and based on Christ, you'd think they'd want to be broadcasting that. But that's the thing is they are super loving. None of it's based on the teachings of Christ, So there's something to hide there. And I. I think that should be. I mean, we're fine recording it and they're not. That's kind of incriminating just in that.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] Yeah, it's kind of a. It's supposed to be to protect you, not them. So it's kind of a secret combination to say that it can't be recorded if you want it recorded.

Amy Malouf [01:07:18] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Yeah.

Jake Malouf [01:07:20] Well, anyway, yeah, I would probably stop short of calling them a secret combination, of course.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] No, I don't mean it is. I just mean, why the secrecy?

Jake Malouf [01:07:30] Why the secrecy? I don't understand. Because we're all being forthright and really we have nothing to hide. So then he reiterated again that they wouldn't be making a decision that night. We asked again, should we be expected to come back into the room after that? And they said no.

Jake Malouf [01:07:49] We did let them know that whatever decision they make, we were pretty clear that we will not be accepting any terms or conditions. We're free agents, and we're going to do what we do. But they can do what they do. But don't try to say you can stay under these conditions because we would not be accepting them.

Jake Malouf [01:08:10] Then they stood up at that point and kind of opened the door and motioned for us to leave, but I wasn't quite ready to leave. So before we left and we honestly, we debated, because I know there's been lots of discussion out there, like, you should do the thing where you.

Amy Malouf [01:08:29] The Jeremy Reynolds.

Jake Malouf [01:08:30] Yeah. You drop your resignation letter before they even have a chance to deliberate. And we felt it was important to allow them to go through this whole process and. And make their decision, because I felt that would be a more powerful message.

Jake Malouf [01:08:46] Also, at that point, we thought about, we'll just leave the room and not shake hands. Because then if we shake hands and that tells them that we support this. And, like, I couldn't do that. What I wanted to do is I went around the room and I took my time, and they were trying to rush us, but I just took my time and I very slowly and deliberately went around the room, looked everybody in the eye, and I shook their hand very firmly, maybe. Maybe too firmly, and just looked them in the eye, and a couple of them whispered as I went by, hey, you know, we'll always be friends and that type of thing.

Jake Malouf [01:09:19] And I looked at him and smiled and just went around the room. And then at the end, there was a kind of a. I think it was mostly in jest, but there was a little snide tone to it as well. Just like, oh, wow, look who's running for public office type thing. And. And, you know, that didn't sit well with me.

Jake Malouf [01:09:35] So I stopped before we walked out the door, and I said, no. The reason I did that is because I want everybody in this room to know that you are an important part of my life. I love you, and I would welcome you into my life anytime you wish. And left it at that.

Jake Malouf [01:09:53] And then we were escorted out of the room by our bishop and we made some small chat in the foyer for a few minutes and walked out the door.

The Excommunication Letter and Its Aftermath

Amy Malouf [01:10:00] Yeah, our state presidency got switched out this weekend. Well, their state presidency. It's not mine anymore.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] That's kind of weird timing, isn't it?

Amy Malouf [01:10:10] Yeah, well, yeah, we've been thinking about that, and I don't. Just knowing the character of the stake president that excommunicated us, he didn't want to, you know, he wanted to finish his job and didn't want to pass off anything on anyone else more than he already is in the transfer of a calling. But the new stake president was sitting out there in the foyer as one of the door watchers.

Jake Malouf [01:10:33] We didn't know who it would be,

Amy Malouf [01:10:34] but in retrospect, yeah, that's who it was. You know, nice people. They're good people. And it's not personal. It really isn't.

Jake Malouf [01:10:44] Those two people were there before. I think actually a few other people showed up during the council that tried to get in just to show their support, and they were turned away because some. Some people chimed in. Yeah, but that picket sign had been left on top of our car, so we took it off and we. We plopped it right in the. Kind of wedged it in a bush right next to the sidewalk. So when everyone left, whenever they left, everyone would see that just, hey, it's all good.

Amy Malouf [01:11:09] The picket of love.

Jake Malouf [01:11:10] The whole thing. I mean, the whole thing. We got there just after seven. We were home by nine. Whole thing took less than two hours and.

Amy Malouf [01:11:19] Yeah, so then, let's see, that was Tuesday. So we had a big party planned for Saturday night, and we were calling it our post excommunication freedom fest and had, you know, a whole bunch of people invited. And it was. It was fantastic. It was a, you know, had a huge bonfire and a Bunch of food and drinks and. And a ton of people showed up from so many of the circles of our world. We didn't invite. We invited a few active members, the ones we thought would feel comfortable and understand it.

Jake Malouf [01:11:54] They all would have been welcome.

Amy Malouf [01:11:56] Yeah, I didn't want to offend somebody by inviting them to something that we're celebrating. Moving on from that wouldn't be comfortable. So kind of limited invitation that way. But those that did show up, it was just. It was a great party. A lot of people, you know, not a lot of small talk, but just people jumping into, hey, this is. Sharing their stories, talking about what they liked, what they didn't like, what they left. How just, you know, so many. So much crossover with so many. And not just. Not just Mormons, but just people. People that were comfortable talking about these issues, whether it's LGBT community or just. Just the idea of trying to. To control someone else's belief. And that often happens within religious communities.

Jake Malouf [01:12:50] Yeah, so that's why. I think that's why actually the story, the whole thing got picked up by the local news, and so they actually ran a headline article on it today. It came out. So they sent photographers and whatever. Just because it does speak to. It doesn't just. It's not just a Mormon issue. The people who showed up at this event, I mean, it's kind of funny, they all wanted to know what. What's the outcome? Did they excommunicate you or not? And like, well, we don't know yet,

Amy Malouf [01:13:15] because we were supposed to know by Friday and this was Saturday. We still didn't know, but.

Jake Malouf [01:13:19] But the people who showed up, it was really neat. It was. I mean, it was our neighbors. It was members of the ski patrol. It was some from church. There were some from the sky. A lot of co workers showed up and just. I mean, I get lost. I have no idea how many people came. I didn't even get a chance to say hello to half the people that came. We had a big, massive bonfire that was 15ft tall, but people just diving in circles upon circles of people that just had this kind of common interest in connection and just freedom and being true to yourself. And the conversations were beautiful. I mean, it was everything we could hope for. So that. That happened. And then. But we went on till like two in the morning. A couple people had driven in from, you know, long distances, you know, eight hours away. So they just.

Amy Malouf [01:14:03] They just.

Jake Malouf [01:14:04] At our house. But then we didn't. We still didn't. We didn't hear anything. Oh, and this I had sent a text to our stake president the day before saying, hey, you know, you mentioned we'd get a letter by the end of the week, just wondering what the update is. And he. He said, well, it's under review by one of the counselors in the state presidency. And I think I kind of. And then I mentioned that, and he happens to be a lawyer.

Jake Malouf [01:14:28] And so somebody got hold of that statement that I made. And so Monday morning I got a text from him saying, hey, just to let you know, I put the letter in the mail Sunday morning because I wanted the other counselor, and he's a previous. He's a retired ATM repairman or something. Because, like, just to kind of like, he wanted to let us know that it's not about lawyers, that someone is reading whatever I write, and I don't even know how, because it was on a closed forum that someone's reading that stuff.

Amy Malouf [01:14:58] We got a mole.

Jake Malouf [01:15:00] And so I replied back to him, hey, thanks. You know, from the previous text, you made it seem like just this one was reviewing it. And I had to assume, because it was just him, that it was because of his profession. So thanks for clarifying that. And I told him that I would clarify that on this podcast, that that is apparently standard procedure, that the entire presidency reviews it. And that's so we could speculate all we want as to why they took a week to send us the letter and who and why was reviewing it, if it ever went to headquarters or whatever. And I don't know, I have no idea. But we did wait.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] I guarantee Curtin McConkie, the law firm

Jake Malouf [01:15:38] reviewed, was a nice letter. You could tell that he put a lot of time and thought into it.

John Dehlin [01:15:46] Are you going to read it to us?

Jake Malouf [01:15:48] If you'd like, yeah, go ahead and read it. It's that long?

John Dehlin [01:15:50] Okay, go for it.

Amy Malouf [01:15:51] It's way shorter than the other one we just read.

Jake Malouf [01:15:53] Yeah, I won't say names or anything, but he was very sincere in this, in the kind of the true believing Mormon mindset comes out in it. But it's fine. Dear Jake and Amy, we have been close friends for a long time. I love each of you and your children. I truly hope we can remain friends for years to come. The decision of the disciplinary council in which you participated is the.

Jake Malouf [01:16:23] As of October 11, 2016, you are no longer members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I sincerely feel this decision will benefit both of you on many levels and will eventually help you return to truth and light.

Jake Malouf [01:16:39] In your comments, you both stated that you no longer believed in the Church and eventually want your names off the rolls of the Church. You also recently claimed that you are no longer affiliated with the LDS Church. The genuine concerns you outlined in your statements are valued. Questions and concerns are welcome, even encouraged.

Amy Malouf [01:16:59] Which is, well, we can argue about later.

Jake Malouf [01:17:03] Questions are not welcome unless you're willing to hear what they say anyway. Questions and concerns are welcomed, even encouraged. However, this decision was based on false doctrine that you have promoted. And then they gave the example from my 13 articles of faith that the

Amy Malouf [01:17:18] Church is in a state of apostasy.

Jake Malouf [01:17:19] That one so as of October 11, you no longer enjoy the privileges of church membership. You no longer have the gift of the Holy Ghost, nor the covenants and blessings of baptism or the Temple. You should not wear temple garments or pay tithes and offerings.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] Bummer.

Jake Malouf [01:17:38] If you desire to attend public church meetings, I am pleased to speak with you about that. So apparently we gotta so we won't be clearing that before they want us to go to them before we go

Amy Malouf [01:17:49] to a meeting, they need to change the sign on the outside of the church that says says Visitors welcome to Most Visitors Welcome.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] Except the Maloofs.

Amy Malouf [01:17:56] Except the Maloofs.

Jake Malouf [01:17:57] So anyway, I'm sure we'd be welcome, but I have no intentions of talking to them or asking their permission to attend anything. They don't have that power over me. Anyway, if you do so, it is important that your conduct be orderly and not distracting from the Spirit. Of course. I hope that through your personal and family prayers you can continue to feel the love of God in your life and his guidance.

Jake Malouf [01:18:19] Amy and Jake the door will always be open to come back to the Church through reap Baptism. Please do not misinterpret the action of the State Disciplinary Council. It is not a sentence or a punishment. It is a vehicle to help you make corrections and return to the light of the Gospel. Eventually, you could have your priesthood and temple blessings restored. I and your other priesthood leaders will be happy to speak with you further about the steps you need to take to again become members of the Church. Church. You have the right to appeal the decision. If you wish to appeal, please notify the Stake President in writing.

Jake Malouf [01:18:51] Prior to November 10, 2016, the Stake President will forward your request to the First Presidency. Jake and Amy, in the future, your circumstances and conditions will change, your perspective will be refined and you will see the value of humility. Valuable, true information will be put in your path and at some point in time you will reflect positively on the feelings you had in the Church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, please remember the door will always be open. As your stake president, I ask the Lord's blessing to be upon you as you continue to search for truth. I testify that you will find it where you left it. My thoughts and prayers go with you.

Amy Malouf [01:19:28] So there's a ton to respond to in there. Initially, our first reaction was with, you know, we're reading it and we're like, finally. We finally got a letter in the mail. This is great. We can move on. And we're reading through it, and I was looking for the words excommunication, because they used those words because that's what it is.

Amy Malouf [01:19:48] So I thought that was interesting that it was just. You are no longer members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Like, totally softened from what it actually is. I think that should be noted. But yeah, we were excommunicated. And then the other part, it says when he talks about the. You no longer have the gift of the Holy Ghost or the temple's covenants and blessings of the baptism of the temple. And that, like, both of us laughed out loud when we read that because, like, he has no jurisdiction over who the Holy Ghost hangs out with. Like, there's no way he could.

Amy Malouf [01:20:26] Like, that's. It was laughable to us that that was what he believed he had the ability to remove by this ruling. And if I've learned anything through all of this, it's that I have the light and the knowledge and the gifts and everything that I've had that I've given them, that I've given the church credit for.

Amy Malouf [01:20:49] The church doesn't own those. Never owned them and never will. And at this point, it was laughable to me that that was being stated. And then the desire, like, don't wear your garments. No one that goes to church actually even truly likes wearing their garments. I mean, maybe some people do.

Jake Malouf [01:21:07] They're used to them.

Amy Malouf [01:21:08] Yeah, they're comfortable. They're used to the things. But yeah, I'm totally fine with that one. And don't pay tithing. Ah, really? You're not going to take my money Anyway, I don't mean to be, like, rude about it, but I kind of am. And that was my reaction, that was my gut reaction of how ludicrous this all is, that it's just I had given them more power than I realized in so many ways in my life. And I now have that back and I'm grateful for that.

Jake Malouf [01:21:39] We'll take it back. I mean, 39 years of dedicated membership and contribution to the church. And thousands and thousands of dollars means nothing. It's what it seems. You make a couple of Facebook posts where you explain, express some concerns, and you're out.

Amy Malouf [01:21:56] Concerns in trying to help an organization become more Christlike, become more loving, become a healthier place for people to be. And what you get is rejection and as much shaming as they can possibly wield. Loving, shaming, but nonetheless, it's absolutely shame and condescending words and the idea that we'll find the truth where we left it and that we won't find it out in the world.

Jake Malouf [01:22:29] Yeah, that was a little frustrating because I think it's apparent from that statement that we read, it's not like we weren't trying to find truth. And we just. After that, we're like, well, he wants us to come back to truth and light. And we have to think, well, what truth and light do you have to offer us? We were there. We had everything you had to offer sincerely, like, truly, we were giving it all we had.

Amy Malouf [01:22:55] Yeah.

Jake Malouf [01:22:56] And we have. We have found more elsewhere. So it's be a. I mean, I have to get a pretty severe hit on the head before I would return back to something that has less truth and light.

Amy Malouf [01:23:10] Yeah.

Jake Malouf [01:23:12] Amy was pretty mad upset. She was. That first day.

Processing the Verdict and Moving Forward

Amy Malouf [01:23:15] Yeah. So, I mean, I'd mentioned, I guess, in our texting back and forth, back and forth of when to do this interview. I just. I wasn't in a state to have this interview at that point, the day that I read the letter, and I think so I processed quite a bit of it, clearly not all of it, but I was angry. I was very angry. And I am trying to understand that anger and realize where that's coming from.

Amy Malouf [01:23:42] And I still am. I'm still angry partly because I thought the church had. I thought it had more good in it and was worth something more, that I was still willing to fight for it, still willing to pour emotion and energy and love into it, and it's just not there. And realizing when I realized the church wasn't true, it was like grief, Because it's a huge part of me. It was.

Amy Malouf [01:24:18] And it died. And realizing, like, I was going through the grief process, all the anger and sorrow and sadness and loss, realizing that it just. It wasn't what it claimed to be, it wasn't what I thought it was, and realizing that hurt.

Amy Malouf [01:24:37] And it resurfaced again with the letter. And I guess the last little bit that I was holding onto of, you know, maybe there is a little hope, maybe there is a Little glimmer of hope for this organization that has so much good in it, that has so many good people, but the organization, it doesn't have it.

Amy Malouf [01:25:09] The hope I have is that the people that make up the organization, the people within it, that's where the hope is. That's where I see the beauty. And the church tries to claim that as its own, but those are just like in. Just like in trying to claim my talents, they're. I didn't get them from the church. I got them from God. And because I'm a human and because I worked and because I love people, and in every single other member of the church that has that light, and whether you call it the light of Christ, the gift of the Holy Ghost, or that spark, all those people that you see, that's amazing and inspiring and enlivening, the church doesn't own that.

Amy Malouf [01:25:45] Those people would be that if they put that because of who they are and their integrity and their honesty and their honor. And maybe some of those things have been learned through Mormonism, but Mormonism doesn't own that. And those people, they're beautiful regardless.

Amy Malouf [01:26:07] And they will continue to be beautiful and inspiring, and I will continue to love them and reach out to them. In or out of the church, it doesn't matter. But beautiful people in my life, I want them in my life.

Amy Malouf [01:26:19] So that's. I don't know. That's the. I think the motive or the reason for my anger was just allowing it to just die and realizing that the church can die and it's okay. But it did. Yeah,

Jake Malouf [01:26:40] I thought I was doing okay. I was initially just kind of like, yes, finally, closure. And most of that day, I was just kind of happy. And last night we were watching this comedy. It's supposed to be a comedy.

Amy Malouf [01:26:54] Oh, it's super funny. It's on Netflix.

Jake Malouf [01:26:55] Super funny show, I think, called the Unbreakable. Kimmy Schmidt or something. Really, it's a funny show. But in there, it's. These girls had been trapped in a bunker for so many years, then they come out of the bunker because they

Amy Malouf [01:27:07] realize that, well, they got freed from

Jake Malouf [01:27:09] the cult, they got freed from their culture, and it's a comedy. But there was something in the episode we watched last night that just struck a chord with me. And it just. I think my anger kind of surfaced a little bit last night, and I just. I just let myself be mad, and I couldn't really pinpoint why, but I think it was just part of that grieving process. And I got over it. I'm feeling great. I mean, I think we're really moving forward. We're actually really happy to. Couple things to report on.

Jake Malouf [01:27:39] I feel like we're making headway with a lot of relationships. I know we've mentioned that some have been damaged and hurt and probably some still will be, but some of those are getting better. We've had some friends show up that said, you know, hey, let's just be friends. Let's just put this behind us. I've had really great conversations with my siblings, or at least one of them, and my parents, and it's making headway and people at work and like, relations. I feel like just everything has been so much more genuine and people are contacting us that just normally wouldn't. And it's pretty awesome. I'll share this one quick story because I think this, to me, this highlights where we should be going with this.

Jake Malouf [01:28:23] Whatever the church does or doesn't do. I think as members of a community, we need to open up ourselves a little bit better. I got contact several months ago. I was contacted by this kid I grew up with. He's a year younger than I was, so we didn't have a lot of interaction, but we were friends, we knew each other.

Jake Malouf [01:28:43] He contacted me and said, hey, just wanted to let you know I've been reading a couple of your things and I agree. Thanks for being vocal. I can't talk about it with my wife or my kids or my family or my neighbors because of my profession and my membership in this community, but it means a lot to me that someone I know and respect is willing to put their neck out. So that's nice. And we, he and I communicated back and forth for a while. And then after the podcast came out, his dad contacted me. And this guy was one of my leaders growing up, and he said, hey, Jake, I listened to that podcast and I just want to let you know, it's.

Jake Malouf [01:29:19] I agree, but I can't talk about it with my spouse or my children or my community or my neighbors. But it means a lot to me that you're willing to come out like this. And I just wanted to scream at both of them, like, have you talked to your son about this? Have you talked to your dad about this? I can't, because I can't just, like, go tell people who they should go talk to and who believes and who doesn't. But I dropped a couple hints and I think they picked up on it. And so then they, like, a week or two later, they, like, maybe a week later, he said, hey, Just wanted to let you know that my dad and I had a conversation, and they had been somewhat distant in their relationship for a long time.

Jake Malouf [01:30:03] And he said, from the sounds of things, it sounds like they had the most meaningful connecting conversation they'd had in years in which they said, hey, I listened to this podcast that Jake and Amy did. What do you think? And then all of a sudden, what they believe came out and they had this bonding experience, father and son.

Jake Malouf [01:30:23] That night, the son went home and he took a leap of faith and he brought it up with his wife. And apparently the conversation went pretty well. And I just thought, you know what? It doesn't matter what people believe or what they don't believe, but. But we need to get past this notion that we can't talk about the most important things in our lives with our neighbors and our spouses and our family and our community. That's just crazy. So I think, if nothing else, I hope that all these things and the stuff you're doing in these conversations, and we have this article in the paper out today, and I guess they want to do a TV thing.

Jake Malouf [01:30:57] Like, we're not looking for this type of thing, but if it helps people talk about things in a healthy way, and I think that's great.

John Dehlin [01:31:07] Beautiful. Yeah, Yeah, I really do. It causes stress on relationships at first, but I really do see this work as ultimately bringing families together, bringing people together, allowing for more authentic relationships between family and friends. That's the big gift of a Mormon transition, is more authenticity.

Jake Malouf [01:31:30] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] Deeper and truer relationships.

Jake Malouf [01:31:33] Yeah.

Amy Malouf [01:31:33] And the, you know, because of. Partly because of the podcast, you know, my dad was able to listen to it and he. When I was there, I was there for a couple hours on my Utah trip. And the feeling with my parents was great. And it's because they had, you know, my dad took time to listen and he feels like he understood me, which is really all I want. And so it's much improved. And we'll get there. We'll get there. Mormons are good people. It's not why I left. It's just not true.

Jake Malouf [01:32:11] But that's okay.

Amy Malouf [01:32:12] That's water under the bridge. And I want my Mormon friends in my life, and I want my non Mormon friends in my life, and it really doesn't matter. I'm not going to be drawing any lines in the sand about who's on what side of the fence and what anyone believes, but if they can allow me my freedom, I'm happy. And either way, I'm happy to allow them theirs believe what you want. But I think the only stipulation I would put on that is understand your religion if you're going to live it, get to know the details, get to know the history and go read the essays on the church website.

Amy Malouf [01:32:46] Start there. That's a great place to start. But there's a lot of people that just don't understand what Mormonism is. And my analogy that I came to with this, that just kind of put together over the last couple days, was that some Mormonism. For me right now, this is how I see it is it's a really nicely wrapped box, really nicely wrapped present and, you know, make up the wrapping paper and the fluffy things on the outside, all are the gospel of Jesus Christ and love, kindness, forgiveness, service, golden rule, putting others before yourself. All those really good things, inspiration, personal revelation, if you want to go there.

Amy Malouf [01:33:31] All those things that I thought were the core of Mormonism, those are all on the outside, those are all the wrapping paper and they're really great. And then you start to open the box and then you're like, oh, there's some messy stuff in here. There's some history, there's some, yeah, I don't know what to do with that. Don't know what to do with polygamy. Don't know what to do with the book of Abraham. Don't know what to do with all these things. There's some problems here. So you keep, you know, you pull out all this stuff and then you get to the bottom. And there's two things that really are the crux of Mormonism.

Amy Malouf [01:34:02] And those two things are the prophet can never lead the church astray and follow the prophet. Those are the two things that really are defining to Mormonism and what it truly is. All the other things are either stuffing within the box or the wrapping paper. And any topic, you name a topic, you follow it down. The culminating thing of whether you believe it or whether you don't, hinges on the prophet can never lead the church astray. And following the prophet, that's it. That's what makes up Mormonism. I don't think that's how Mormonism started, but Mormonism today, that's the crux. And there's a lot of people that are happy just carrying the box around because they love it.

Amy Malouf [01:34:43] They love how they love to put it on their table. It's so pretty, they can share it with their friends. They love it. It brings them joy just looking at that. And it is, it's beautiful. And then there's people that open it up, look at it go. No, I'm going to wrap it back up because I liked it better with the wrapping paper on and whatever stage you're at or you want to be at, it doesn't matter to me. But I got to the bottom of the box and realized that's not what I thought it was. Who cares how nice the wrapping paper is? I'm going to take that wrapping paper, I'm going to carry it with me, and I'm going to get rid of the stuff that's in the box because I'm not okay with that and that is not what I believe.

Amy Malouf [01:35:21] But what I'm taking with me is all those other beautiful things that transcend Mormonism, that don't belong to Mormonism, that belong to humanity. And I'm claiming those. And Mormonism can't stop me from that.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] Beautiful. That's beautiful. Thanks. Thanks so much, Amy. Jake, any final words?

Jake Malouf [01:35:44] Oh, I one thing that some, sometimes people listen to this and you read a lot of the discussions, they'll say, ah, they're just, you know, that's their, that's their story, that's their perspective. They're putting a spin on stuff or whatever.

Jake Malouf [01:35:59] And I guess I love we listen to this thing by Malcolm Gladwell. You know, he's kind of an interesting, good thinker. Probably a lot of people have heard that analogy about David and Goliath and the sling. And we've always liked that because when we listened to him do that, we thought, yeah, we've been telling that to people for 15 years.

Jake Malouf [01:36:20] It was really nice, validating to have this genius guy tell us because I grew up using a slingshot. And I knew, like, not like the wrist rocket thing, but like the thing where you put the rock in like David did, where you swing it around your head and you buzz it. And these, I can whip these things hundreds and hundreds of yards and break branches off of trees that are 2 inches thick because people don't realize the power of that sling. And so people, the common perception of the David and Goliath story is David went up there with this little shepherd, skinny boy with a little teeny sling, and God directed and guided that rock.

Jake Malouf [01:36:59] And just out of pure divine circumstance, it knocked out this giant Goliath. And what Malcolm did is he turned that story around and said, no, actually, Goliath was the underdog. You didn't understand the power and the belief behind a sling.

Jake Malouf [01:37:15] And all this is a simple paradigm shift. It's looking at things in a different light and realizing that we're just Trying to do our best with the information we've got. We're not trying to put spins or bring anything down or do anything that's bad for people, but we have a history and the tendency between both of us. And I think everyone who goes down this path to look at things as they really are, look at the facts and do your best with what you've got. And I hope we can all try our best to do that and be loving and kind and quit destroying relationships and getting in each other's space in the process.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] Beautiful couple. Quick questions. Are you guys glad you attended your disciplinary council?

Reflections on Resignation Versus Excommunication

Amy Malouf [01:38:09] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] You glad you went through it?

Jake Malouf [01:38:12] I'm glad we went through it. Yeah.

Amy Malouf [01:38:14] Yeah. Because I. I wanted my words to represent me, not someone else's words to represent me and why I left. I. I feel like I can do that better than anyone else can for representing myself. So. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't super fun.

John Dehlin [01:38:33] Right. Are you glad you didn't resign?

Jake Malouf [01:38:37] Yeah.

Amy Malouf [01:38:38] Well.

Jake Malouf [01:38:38] Well, I'll tell you this. I think yes, by. Because that was a thought, and I'm sure we would have. I mean, eventually, because like we said, we absolutely would have, eventually, but we would have done it after. Like you say, time. Time heals a lot of this stuff. Give people a chance to think about it, then we'll quietly put in our resignation.

Amy Malouf [01:38:57] But. And more importantly, on our own terms.

Jake Malouf [01:38:59] But. But, man, by being able to do this and just seeing the huge amount of love and outreach that has meant more to me than. Because this was tough, you know, it. This is. This is harder than I thought it would be to go through this and get that letter saying, hey, you're excommunicated.

Jake Malouf [01:39:21] But knowing that there are thousands of voices out there who are giving their support and love on both sides of the spectrum to us. I need that. And that means so much to me. So thanks. And I wish, and I hope that that can be out there for anybody who goes through this. And not everyone's going to be able to have a microphone and have their picture taken and do all this stuff. And I don't know why that happened to us, but if you go through this and you go through it silently or quietly or just put your resignation letter in the mail, it's still going to be tough.

Jake Malouf [01:40:01] But know that there is a huge crowd out there who love you and support you and will do whatever it takes to help you get through that. That's awesome. So, yeah, we have no regrets. It's been really neat.

Amy Malouf [01:40:14] Yeah. And one of the other really cool things is connecting people within Alaska, the people that have reached out in my ward and in my stake, people that I didn't know that listened to the podcast, had no idea, and now they're no longer isolated. They thought they were because they were, and they're not. Now they're connected with our little group of really wonderful, genuine people that, you know, they're all along the spectrum, but it's a comfortable spectrum, and it's an allowable spectrum. We've got people that are fully attending and totally closeted, and we have people that are. That have been out for years, years and

Amy Malouf [01:40:53] years and years, and, like, left when they were teenagers, but still feel compassion and connection to Mormonism and the harm that it has caused psychologically for them, which, yeah, there's some healing that needs to take place for me and many others, and this helps facilitate that. And it's. I love it. So, yeah, our arms are open.

John Dehlin [01:41:15] So for those of you who need community, go to mormonspectrum.org, go to the map there, and find or create a Facebook group or a community so that you can find friends where you live to be support not only through a transition, but after as well.

Amy Malouf [01:41:34] Yeah, I set up a group on Mormon spectrum, so the little dot IN Anchorage, it'll send you right to me. And then we'll. Then we'll filter you and send you through our TBM detector, and if it's a good fit, we'll add you in.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] All right, guys. Well, there are tens of thousands of us standing behind you and beside you in support of you. Thank you for your courage and your strength. Thanks for sharing your stories. These stories heal and they make a huge difference. So bless you both.

Amy Malouf [01:42:08] Thanks. Thanks, John.

Jake Malouf [01:42:09] Thanks a million.

Amy Malouf [01:42:09] Yeah, you too.

John Dehlin [01:42:10] And, listeners, please join us@mormonstories.org if you have any respectful comments or questions for Jake and Amy. You guys can share the letter or photos or whatever you want to share. We'll put them up on the post. Jake and Amy, and just know we love you guys. We're really grateful for your courage and your candor, and we know you're gonna save relationships and maybe even save lives for being willing to tell your story. So thank you.

Amy Malouf [01:42:37] Yeah, thank you.

Jake Malouf [01:42:38] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:42:39] All right, guys, we'll keep covering these excommunications as they happen. Please stay tuned. And Jake and Amy, next time you're in Cache Valley, please reach out.

Amy Malouf [01:42:47] I think we will come knocking on your door.

John Dehlin [01:42:49] All right, guys, you guys take care.

Amy Malouf [01:42:51] Yeah. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:42:53] Okay.

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