Welcome and Guest Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today. I am John Dehlin and I am so thrilled to have in studio with me. She appears at least once a month, hopefully more. Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:16] Hey there.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Welcome.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Are you excited for today's episode?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:20] I'm super excited for today.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Me too.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Today we are going. We have back in our studios the amazing, the brilliant, the thoughtful, the creative, the talented, the wise, Samantha Shelley. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:37] Hi, Delins. So nice to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] Or as I like to call you, Sammy.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:41] Yep, you do.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] We have. I was thinking to myself, wow, we've had Samantha on a couple times. Why in the world would we have her back? And then I realized every time, every time we brought you, it's always been with your sidekick Tanner, and we never have given you a proper Mormon story. True that.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:00] That is true.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:01] I mean, it's still proper, you know, it's not less.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] Yeah, yeah. So. And Margi, I want to hear why this was so exciting to you, but I'm going to tell the audience ahead of time why I think this is super interesting. Samantha's got an amazing story. She was raised in the uk. She was not raised lds, as she was kind of explaining to me beforehand. She was a very promising student. What did you say? The equivalent of a valedictorian. You don't want me to say that.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:32] I mean, that's not.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] That's so British.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:34] That's not even a thing.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Brilliant. A brilliant human with a promising future. And then she decides in her teen years to join Mormonism. What's that about? But there's more because also there are themes about mental health, there are themes about eating disorders. There are themes around parenting and reparenting and frankly, faith crisis stuff, but then healing and growth after leaving a high demand religion and or cult. So this has so much good now, Margi, did I steal your thunder? Were there other things that were exciting to you about.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:13] Well, we could just spend an hour

John Dehlin [00:02:15] before talking about why we're excited about

Margi Dehlin [00:02:17] talking about why we love Sam.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:20] The hype parents I never had. I feel so held by you both.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:24] What I will say, I do feel like, you know, the way Sam shows up in the world is notable to me and you can get a just a piece of that on her Instagram feed. But I do just feel like your level of thoughtfulness, intention being real about what it means to be alive and how complicated that is. And even in this realm, in particular, this idea around self healing which I also feel really passionate about. So I don't know, you're just a standout to me in a way that's both like, it inspires me, but it also is relatable and I think that's important. So.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Yeah. And let me just begin how I will end, which is by plugging all your social media assets. So you, so obviously you're. You're co lead on the Zelf on the Shelf YouTube channel and Instagram and. And TikTok channel with. With Tanner Gilliland. We've got a couple Mormon stories episodes, including a real classic, Losing Mormon Millennials. You and Tanner were a part of that. We had an update recently. But you also have your own website and you are a faith transition slash healing and growth life coach, is that right?

Samantha Shelley [00:03:43] Yeah, I do intentional living coaching. I have a website, samanthshellecoaching.com for that and I'm also on Instagram and Tick Tock and everywhere at the Sam Spo.

John Dehlin [00:03:56] That's that's T H E S A M S P S P O And we'll include links to all that in the show notes.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:05] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Yeah. All right, Margi, well, you're going to be kind of the lead and I'm going to be your trusty sidekick. How does that sound?

Samantha Shelley [00:04:13] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:14] Brilliant.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:15] Yeah. I'm still going to be following a lot of some of the Thrive stories model. So in that if I were going to ask you to just briefly introduce yourself, I think maybe some people do know you already, but maybe some people don't. So for them, how would you talk about just a brief introduction to you, who you love, what you love, anything.

Samantha's Background and Path to Mormonism

Samantha Shelley [00:04:37] Well, I'm Sam. I grew up in the UK. I lived there till I was 18. At 18 I moved to America to go to BYU, Idaho because I had joined Mormonism as a 17 year old. I love. What do I love? Cats, writing, good vegan food, Being on the micro niche podcast circuit. I. I don't know. I like being outside. I love nature. Yeah, yeah, it's Samantha Shelley coaching, not Samantha Shelley healing.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:13] I wouldn't deign to put healing in the title.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] We'll fix that in post production. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:19] That's great. Perfect. Okay. And when. What topics will we be exploring? Would you say? Just overall today. Where do you think we'll kind of.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:31] Where are we headed? We are going to talk about. Well, I suppose just the repercussions of not having your needs met in childhood, which I feel like is a universal thing. I also will probably touch on the specific trauma of being an only child as you go through traumatic childhood situations. Because I think that adds a unique flavor and isolation. Obviously, I suppose I'll be talking about what drives a seemingly normal, good student to joining a cult as a teenager. And then my journey of healing.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:16] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:16] And how. I don't know, I feel like there is no one path to healing. There's a lot of, you know, all of our psyches kind of need different things and different methodologies work for different people. And I didn't find that much success in traditional therapy. And it was very much a self directed journey which, you know, different things work for different people. But that's just what has worked for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:42] Yeah, yeah, I have heard a lot. I, I really feel for what you're saying and I don't think you're alone in that with regard to traditional therapy, especially with regard to things like trauma or where, you know, a holistic approach. Right. Where there's like body practices and.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] Yeah, frankly, it's why we need Teal Swan.

Samantha Shelley [00:07:03] I was just about to see if I could insert. I was like.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Shut up. I just said something rude. I'm sorry. No offense. Swan. Healers, Swanners, what are they called?

Samantha Shelley [00:07:15] Swan songs.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] Anyway, sorry, it was just a inside joke.

Samantha Shelley [00:07:19] No, I was thinking too, John, so sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:22] Okay. Can I just say something about that Steel tribe.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] It's Teal tribe. Yeah, sorry. Apologies to the teal tribe. Okay. Margi?

Samantha Shelley [00:07:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:29] Okay. Something that.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] All right.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:31] And then squirrel. But then back is what I would say about that is, you know, the inescapable. Do you remember when we were having this conversation, we have a therapist friend named Dave who was telling us about a study that was just released from Harvard and Boston University. I think the idea they're coming out with this new approach to therapy with where it's more universal. Up till now it's like very like dependent on your diagnosis. And then they do different things. But what they're realizing now, like the latest thing is now this wouldn't include like highly genetic or really severe like schizophrenia. So that like those types I'm not talking about, but like anxiety, ocd, depression.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:15] Right. That the common route oftentimes is what we will do to cope with, avoid really intense uncomfortable feelings. So I mean, there is something to that with Teal Swan. Right. And with all the things that we do. But I just think that's a really. That's an interesting place to start. Right. What we will do, how we cope, how.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:42] What we'll do to avoid.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:43] To escape discomfort. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:48] Intense discomfort of being alive.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:50] Marty, the trauma therapist, he wrote the Body Keeps the Score. He said, the story for all of us is we had needs. They weren't met. We found ways to cope with that. And that's like the human story.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:03] Yes, exactly.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:04] So Teal Swan is just, you know, one person trying to meet that need, I suppose.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:08] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:09] And I don't want to talk about Tail Swan anymore.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:11] No, we're done.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:12] We're done with that.

Childhood Home and Family Life

Margi Dehlin [00:09:14] So I'm really curious about this question. If. So, if we start kind of a little bit in your beginning, your childhood, and kind of go back there, like, when you think about you as a girl, how. Like, what things come up for you as to what you. How you felt being in the world, what it felt like being in your kind of family system, and kind of just what you remember about yourself. I'm kind of curious. You can even go into, honestly, like, what you loved, what you used to do as a girl. Were you really social? Were you not just anything that comes up?

Samantha Shelley [00:09:52] Yeah. So I was an only child, and my parents were not equipped to be parents. Like, they physically, you know, they had a home and, you know, physical resources for me, but in terms of emotionally, it. It just wasn't something I see them as having been cut out for.

Samantha Shelley [00:10:16] And I. I got a sense of that at a really young age. And by the way, I just want to preface all this by saying, like, every parent tries their best. My parents tried their best. You know, they both come from long lines of intergenerational trauma. So nothing about anything I'm gonna say is like a diss on my parents, because I just think that's unhelpful and, like, not doesn't represent reality. Well, okay, they. They tried their best with what they had available to them, but one of my earliest memories is of being.

Samantha Shelley [00:10:46] This is just kind of a little symbolic memory. Well, some of them. There's so much that can be said here. I'm trying to organize my thoughts. A lot of my early memories are of domestic violence or things around that.

Samantha Shelley [00:10:58] But basically, I got a sense at a young age that my parents. I felt like at a young age, my parents were not equipped to look after me. I remember being on holiday in Spain or somewhere, and my parents had rented this jeep, and I think I was about two and a half. Like, this might be, like, my earliest memory I have. And it's not a story my parents told me over the years, so it's not a false memory, because I didn't tell them about this. Memory till I was a lot older.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:24] But I remember being two and being in the back of this jeep while my parents were on holiday with me and I'm in this like kid's car seat and the windows open and, and the reality of the situation is that I was perfectly safe. Like my parents would always like strap me in and you know, they were good like that.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:40] But I, it was like, it felt like a near death experience for me as a two and a half year old. And I vividly remember like thinking I was going to fall out the window and I was going to die and you know, maybe this is like meaning making but I look back on that memory as like just kind of it being representative of this early sense that my parents couldn't see me well enough or couldn't understand my needs well enough to truly take care of me. So even though again my parents always provided for my physical needs and I was safe in that situation.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:10] Yeah, it was like part of this growing sense of like something's like a bit off here in terms of like yeah, parenting, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:20] Yeah. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:21] So anyway that's just one piece. But in terms of what I was like as a young child, well a big part of me being an only child obviously loneliness can be a big thing there and I didn't have parents who were like very, I'd say my dad more so than my mum, but my mom especially is not like a kid person. She's not necessarily like someone that you know, naturally bonds well with children.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:49] They did okay. But I really as a kid I formed a lot of. I guess it's similar to like an imaginary friend but basically I transferred onto my stuffed animals a lot. Like it wasn't, it was real to me, you know, like my, my teddy, my first teddy that my dad brought me when I was born in the hospital. Like he was my best friend and like it was a very real relationship to me. And I had so many teddies. Like every time I would go over to my grandparents house because they lived nearby, I would bring like three giant bin bags of teddies with me and like line them all up in this double bed.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:31] Anyway, so that was a big. And I find that interesting just because when children don't have their needs met, they find ways to have their needs met. And it's kind of beautiful, you know. It's beautiful. I was able to create what I didn't have socially in these like kind of imaginary friendships with my stuffed animals. I have another memory of being seven also on holiday in Spain or somewhere. Somewhere that English people go.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:58] And I carried my Teddy, he was called Teddy, everywhere with me. And he accidentally got left on this, like, bus and went to the other side of the island and was just kind of, like, gone forever. And my. To their credit, my parents, like, knew how much Teddy meant to me and they spent, I don't know, probably hours, like, calling the bus company and ultimately were able to find Teddy and, like, return him to me and that. It was like I was about to have to process the death of a sibling. Like, that's how serious it was. But luckily me and Teddy were reunited.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:31] That's great.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:32] Anyway, that's what came to mind when you asked me about my childhood.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:36] Yeah. That is so tender, this idea of, you know, on some level, even if it's unconscious, have feeling this sense of aloneness and then finding a way within your control to create a relationship with something so that you feel less alone in that environment.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:56] Yeah. And I mean, I wonder if I would have grown up religious, whether I would have projected that onto, you know, the idea of Jesus or God or something like that. And I. I look back and I think stuffed animals was a very healthy sort of way to transfer because you sort of naturally evolve out of it at a certain time.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:13] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:14] There's no sort of remnants of, I don't know, having a bunch of dogmatic, bigoted beliefs.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:19] Yeah. It's, like, age appropriate.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:22] Right. As opposed to having some adult themed.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:25] Like programming and, like, come over.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:27] You know, teddies are not. They're not authoritarian. They're not trying to tell you what to do. They're just there to be a friend, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:15:35] Yeah. They're there for whatever.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:36] Perfect projection.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:38] Yes. I love that so much. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] I had. This is a great, great time to ask. I think, like, the United States is kind of moving in a secular direction, but it's still overwhelmingly religious right now. And when you look at, like, the numbers in Western Europe, it's reversed. Most people are secular there. So I'm wondering, did your parents have a religious upbringing? How was God and Jesus and faith or the Anglican Church or any religion discussed in your upbringing? I'm just dying to hear.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:11] Yeah. So not a very religious upbringing. My parents were both. I mean, probably atheist, you know, like, maybe agnostic. They would both make jokes about Jesus and Christianity. You know, religion was kind of like a subject for derision for the most part.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:29] And I had a little bit of Christianity in my school, in my primary school. I remember we'd have a vicar come in now and then. Would Tell us like a little story about Jesus and maybe we would occasionally, I mean at Christmas we would sing kind of Christian songs. You know, it's still like in the culture.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:48] And if you asked, I think I remember when I was younger asking my mum like, what religion are we for? Like filling out some form and she was like, just put Church of England. But I mean she wasn't, you know, she didn't believe that Jesus was born of a virgin or anything like that.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:03] So yeah, pretty atheist upbringing. I also went to brownies when I was a kid, which has religious overtones, undertones. And so I would go to the occasional church service for that to get brownie points. To get. I don't remember why you were supposed to collect brownie points, but yeah, it was very much like for the points.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] You know, I have this dark saying that I developed doing retreats, that it's kind of like a joke. What, what do you call children of secular parents? And then I pause and I say cult fodder.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Because there's so many people leaving Mormonism now and other high demand religions who they think, oh, now I'm good, I, I've left a high demand religion and now I just need to raise my kids in a secular way. And for the rest of my posterity, for eternity, I'm going to have a secular posterity. But I don't think it works that way.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:02] Well, yeah, I mean a lot of humans are vulnerable to joining cults and if you're raised without an ideology, there's definitely like the potential for a group to swoop in and fill that vacuum. But I mean it's not, it wasn't common for people like me to join cults. Like it was very weird that I did that. And it's not, I don't know anyone else who like joined a religion like Mormonism from, you know, my circle of people growing up. So yeah, I mean people are, yeah, you can always be vulnerable because it's like religion was not even enough of a thing for my parents to be kind of worried either way.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:41] Like they weren't worried if I went to a Christian church for brownies and like picked up some Christian teachings. It didn't really matter to them either way. Which, yeah, does leave that potential there. And those, that small amount of exposure that I had to Christianity like did, did sink in a little bit. Like I remember every now and then when things were bad, I would like lie in my bed at night and say a prayer just in case. And I knew in my mind it was like A just in case prayer.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:06] But I, I would say my psyche did have, like, a light undertone of Christianity there, just because that was kind of the only religion I'd been exposed to. But then I also thought Christianity, you know, I didn't think that there was a man called Jesus who was born of a virgin. And, you know, so I was just kind of a little bit of a hodgepodge in my brain.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] So if you were unique, I'm dying to hear what it was about you or your upbringing that made your decisions different than what your peers would have been.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:32] We will get to that. Yes, we will. Stay tuned for that.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:36] We're in childhood. I think what I maybe would like to do is just pause and invite anyone listening or watching to kind of take care, because I do feel like, um, I am gonna ask questions around childhood trauma a little bit. I think we may get into eating disorder conversations as well. So that's just an invitation to take good care, take breaks, leave, stop the recording as. As needed. We care about you. But also I think these conversations are important to have. And I don't think you're alone in experiencing these types of trauma, pain, suffering as a child too. So.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:20] Yeah, definitely.

Fear, Safety, and Early Coping Strategies

Margi Dehlin [00:20:21] So. Okay, so what I'm hearing so far is a bit of fear of safety in your own home. Is that right?

Samantha Shelley [00:20:30] Young, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:32] Starting young.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:33] Yeah. And I would actually say it maybe like, entered an OCD level for me because, well, as a younger child, like under 10, I mean, it went on after that too. But, like, I think all of my fears got channeled into these, like, specific kind of, like, unreasonable fit. Like, for example, I had a period where I was very scared of there being a fire at night. And so my parents, like, put a phone in my bedroom to try and be like, well, if there's a fire, you can call the fire brigade. You know, like, they, they, they, they did what they could. And so I just remember that being a fixation for a while. Like, there's going to be a fire in the night and I'm not going to be safe.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:12] And it's.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:13] And I think the reality was that the domestic violence that would happen in my home would happen after dark. And so going to sleep was a huge thing for me. My whole childhood. I really struggled with being able to fall asleep.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:23] That so makes sense.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:25] Yeah. So for a while it was that I would have these intrusive, scary images as I was falling asleep of just, just, I don't know, some monster I'd seen on a show that we watched at school. I remember that would come to me, like, every single night and I wouldn't be able to sleep because I would have these intrusive thoughts.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:43] I can't even remember all the different ones. I remember when we were learning about World War II in school, when I was in, like, year three or year four, which is kind of wild that at seven or eight you're learning about such intense things.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:56] But I remember I got really scared of there being a plane that would fly over and bomb the house, you know, so it just got channeled into whatever made sense in my little kid brain at the time. But going to sleep was a massive thing for me. I actually.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:13] Well, this is a vulnerable admission, but my parents separated when I was about 10. But until I was about, I think, like, 14, I would sleep in my mum's bed with her because I was so scared of going to sleep. It was such a complex I had my whole life. And even before they separated, my dad would go on business trips a lot. And so when he was away, I would always sleep with my mom. It was very scary for me to be alone at night and to. Yeah. And in hindsight, it's because it's scary to be alone with your thoughts when you're a traumatized kid.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:42] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:42] And you don't have a sibling you can, like, you know, play with in the dark, chat to. Yeah. Even take your feelings out on. You know, there's. There's ways that siblings can sort of show up for each other and, you know, just whatever ways their psyche sees fit. But at least there's not that loneliness.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:02] But, yeah, sleep was a very big deal for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:05] That's so. That. So makes sense. Even when you think about sleep, this idea of, like, what happens in order for you to go to sleep, you have to. On some level. Animals are like this. Like, you don't go to sleep unless you feel safe.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:19] Like, it's an active faith to go to sleep. It's sort of like, I don't think anything's going to harm me. And it makes sense as a child. There's no read on that. If you. If there's this sense of, like, bad things happen at night in my house, they're beyond my control. And then it sounds like that fear of safety. Of course it goes everywhere. It's all the things that could happen. Right. To kind of interpret that sense of safety.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:43] It's like my nervous system learned at an early age, like, this is a time when anything could happen and it would, you know, the things that would happen Would very much be like life or death. Like, there would be times where I would like run to the phone as a child and try and call the police to be like, come save me. Essentially, my grandmother actually lived. My dad's parents, those grandparents lived like two streets away from us. They were great grandparents, really. My grandma especially was a major, like, reparative or, I don't know, healing force in my life. Someone to sort of counterbalance the trauma.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:21] She was one of the few adults in my early childhood that knew how to truly, like, hold a child safely emotionally. And sometimes I would have to run to the phone and call her and she would come over and diffuse the situation with my parents and.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:36] But then my parents kind of got wise to me doing that and would disconnect the phone and. Wow, we are just getting into it in this interview.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:43] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Do you want to share her name or would you rather not your grandma's name?

Samantha Shelley [00:24:47] Her name was Georgina.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Georgina.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:49] Georgina. Like the power of, I think a presence like that in a situation. Like it's. Yeah, I. So look, going back to sort of your coping during the time, because you're a child now in this environment where it sounds like, you know, highly charged, intense relations are going on, conflict is going on.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:17] What do you remember? So you've mentioned already, I would try to get help. So you would call. Do you remember what else you would do when you felt scared? Like, did you hide? Did you try to, like, do you remember?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:34] Was it like a void? I need to rescue myself. I'm going to go get under the bed or I'm going to. I try to stop it or I like, do you remember? And it's okay if you don't. I was just curious. You're coping with something so large, so beyond a child at that age. Like what you noticed about yourself when you, you know, kind of were like, help.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:59] What do I do?

Margi Dehlin [00:26:00] How do I cope?

Samantha Shelley [00:26:01] So I think in like the really intense, like active conflict situations that felt life or death, it was a mix of the running to the phone and also there was only one room in our house that had a lock and it was our upstairs bathroom. So my go to when things kicked off was like, get to that bathroom because that's the only room with a lock. So that was kind of like a safer space. Yeah, I mean, that's all I can remember from. Because. Because, you know, there's like the times of active conflict, but then like, most of the trauma is kind of just the day to day.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:38] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:39] You don't even realize you're carrying it around and you don't realize that you're hyper vigilant and that's why you're, you know, becoming like this little manic OCD kid. Yeah, he's like projecting onto everything.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:50] Yeah, but.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:51] Yeah, but in terms of coping, I mean, there's so many things I could mention and food was a massive coping thing for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:58] And was it as a child or was that more. It was. So it emerged when you were still young?

Samantha Shelley [00:27:04] Yeah, I think from. Probably from even when I was like three or four, I started using food as a coping mechanism. And I think it's part, you know, part of it is that's the way my mum would try and sort of show up for me as a mother. You know, I think.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:20] I don't. I think motherhood is. Is a lot. And my mum, again, like, tried her best, but I think, like, not everyone is cut out to be like the most nurturing mother, you know, with the most perfect parenting skills. And I think one way that my mum felt able to like, show love or, you know, one of a mother's core responsibilities is to feed her child. And I think it's not uncommon for mothers that maybe like, lack other parenting skills to sort of over emphasize the feeding thing because it's like a tangible, like achievable thing that can always be done.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:00] So I feel like that was a way that my mum would try to show me love would be like, feeding me, like more than I needed as a child or, you know, these like, indulgent things that my dad would be like, she shouldn't eat that because that's unhealthy, or she shouldn't eat that much because she'll get sick, whatever.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:17] And also just being an only child, my parents were both into like pub culture in the uk. They, I think they, when they were, before they had me, they would go to beer festivals a lot. And even as a kid, like, I would go to beer festivals a lot with them and I would just kind of be like, you know, planted with a bag of crisps and that there would be nothing to do, you know, except for just kind of like be there with my parents. That's why I always was like, so envious of people that had siblings because, you know, if you're like in a pub with a sibling, you can be two kids playing together.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:50] But it was just a lot of my childhood was like, quite boring because of being an only child. Like, I'd just be like, at the pub with my parents and there'll be nothing to do except like eat crisps.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:00] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:01] So I think it. And if I went over to. Because I'm from a small family generally I only have two first cousins and they live, they lived far away my whole childhood. So if I went over to any like my grandparents house, my mum's parents for example, who are also were not really like kid people, I'd be just planted in front of the TV with a bag of crisps. So I have a lot of memories of just being planted somewhere with a bag of crisps. And to this day I have a very like emotional attachment to crisps.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] And to be clear, crisps are potato chips and chips are french fries. Is that right?

Samantha Shelley [00:29:37] Yes, yes. This is such an interesting interview. Compared to other Mormon stories I've done like what's coming up and what's coming out. It's just so random and like very vulnerable but also feels fine and trivial. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] And silly.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:52] Not trivial, you know. Good. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:56] Yeah. Well, thank you for. Thank you for going into the depth you. You are going into. I know it's probably, you know, it's not an easy thing. It does however, I feel like, allow for a sense of understanding of like what I'm hearing is a lot of loneliness. Like this sense of just feeling incredibly alone with a little. With some teddies, but still profoundly alone, really unseen. Like this sort of idea of being a child and being an entity with your own feelings, preferences, needs, all that largely not seen or acknowledged. Is that true or am I jumping to that?

Samantha Shelley [00:30:44] Yeah, very true. And I think we all as children are unseen to varying degrees. I would say being an only child of two people that weren't necessarily, you know, some people, all parents have, you know, strengths and weaknesses, but some people are just more cut out for parenthood than others.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:01] And the fact that my parents relationship was so bad was a big factor in that. The fact that they weren't able to parent well in a lot of ways, but not in all ways. They did a good job in some ways but yeah, like as a child it's like when you're starting to get a sense of what you're expected to be. And I feel like for everyone there's always a gap between what you're expected to be and what you naturally are. And so that's when the ego is formed, right. You start adopting, you start wearing these certain masks to be around, let's say your parents or the world because you're picking up on the fact that that's what's expected of you.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:40] Like it's not okay. To be authentic in this way. In this way. And so it's when you're really, like, creating your kind of false Persona for the world. Because I feel like we all. I mean, that's the ego we go through life with sort of, you know, there's usually some kind of difference between, like, what's going on for us inside and the face that we wear publicly externally.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:08] And so, yeah, and I think the best parents are parents who are able to really, like, see. See their children and see, like, what's going on for them and. And not just kind of like, try and stuff them into this box as if, like, if we can just get them to be in that box, then they'll be okay, and then we'll. We'll be doing a good job as parents. Like, that is not good parenting. But that is what most of our parents, like, thought. And it's not their fault, you know, but so it's like, if you're my parents parenting me in the 90s, you think, well, a good child is this, this, and this. And so if we can just get her to be that somehow or as much of that as possible.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:47] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:48] Then like, that's sort of the main measure of our success when really there's like. And so because of that, you know, they're sort of blinded to, like, well, she has all these dysfunctions forming and there's ways that she's not okay. You know, it's like they. And I think part of it is like, they didn't necessarily, like, want to see that as well. It's like, yeah, they would respond to everything with kids, like, gets seen through the lens of good and bad behavior a lot of the time, which I hate.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:18] So true.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:19] And so we'll get angry at children for, like, having emotional outbursts. But it's like you. It's your job as a parent to teach your kids how to emotionally regulate themselves. And you need to be like, the vehicle for that because. Because they're young, so you need to be holding their emotions and showing them what to do with them. And so much of the time, like, kids are treated like they're bad because they don't know how to emotionally regulate, because their parents don't know how to emotionally regulate. And then it's not the parents fault either, because their parents didn't know how to emotionally regulate.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:48] So I, early on, I sort of got this sense that I was like a bad kid. Like, I was a good student, but I wasn't like, socially appropriate in all the ways I should be and again, I think part of that is being an only child and not being around other children as much as other children would be who had siblings.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:10] Yeah. So do you think I'm curious about this if we dropped in and just kind of saw a bit of your life and how you showed up, like what you kind of would we see. You kind of said earlier it was boring. It was like a very. Because you didn't have this sense of like a sibling to like imaginary play with or you know, whatever. And I'm curious if you did that on your own, if you, if you like you kind of alluded to stuffed animals being that, that they came alive for you and maybe, you know, you had that sense, which I really relate to and I think it's really beautiful.

A Typical Day in Childhood

Margi Dehlin [00:34:48] Um, but yeah, I'm kind of curious about like we drop into your childhood and it's a normal day. Is it kind of like you going to school, like just kind of bring me through. And even in school, like, are you showing up when you say you're not a good. You're showing up in ways that are, whatever, not ideal or being labeled as, you know, you're a good student but not super. Is that because of emotions? Is that because of just kind of fill in and color that piece, if you don't mind?

Samantha Shelley [00:35:20] Yeah, you know, it's a mixed bag and I don't want to paint a picture of just having the worst childhood ever because it was very. There was good things about it and there were bad things about it. So I generally liked school and I was like, pretty like as a young child. I don't think I was shy, I think I was socially awkward and didn't really know how to connect with other kids at school the way that like, I never really fit in. And it was like quite a struggle for me to make friends, especially in primary school. So up to about 11, I would kind of have to sort of scam my way into kids playing with me on the playground.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:02] And I was like quite a loner and I would occasionally a group would accept me for a little bit of time and then I think like, eventually I would weird them out in some way, be too much and then I would kind of be ousted from the group.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:18] But I don't remember being like devastated about it or being, you know, on the playground, just so upset. It was just kind of like, this is the game of life, what we got to do, you know. But in terms of my day to day life, I mean one sort of good thing that came from everything was I was a voracious reader, so a lot of my. Even at like, 7 or 8, I was reading so much.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:42] So that was a big part of. You know, there's a high likelihood if you drop down in my childhood, at any point, I'd just be reading.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:47] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:49] But, yeah, I generally enjoyed school. I really, like, thrived in the school system. I really appreciated, like, the structure and the safety of school because at school, even if you got in trouble, you're never fearing for your life. And so, you know, it's like, do your work, stick to the rules. I kind of got this sense from a young age that, like, home is scary and unsafe.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:14] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:15] And I didn't, like, really talk about that to anyone outside of my home, I don't think. Not often, at least, because as a kid, you just kind of internalize it as, like, oh, there's like something wrong with me, or like, I don't. People shouldn't know about this because, you know, shame, I suppose. But school was a very, like, safe place. So, yeah, I thrived in school because of that. Because of the structure and.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:41] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:42] Sorry if I'm sort of repeating myself.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:44] No, no, that makes sense. So if we were going to kind of. Are there any. Are there any sort of wounds that you identify sort of. I think we've already kind of done that a little bit. So safety being one. Right. Would you say that? Not kind of feeling safe anywhere and then the coping that emerges from that, where you're, like, looking for now, danger everywhere, to identify, to be safe. Are there any wounds that you've. You sense kind of you carry with you that you want to note before we move into sort of your teen years and kind of how all of this is showing up as you get a bit older?

Samantha Shelley [00:38:27] Well, what I'll say is, as a young child, I. I kind of felt like my mum was the good guy and my dad was the bad guy, which is not how I see it now and is not like, an accurate assessment of the situation.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:41] But it was like, kind of like, my mum can do no wrong. And then my dad is like the scary force in my life. And, yeah, my dad is. He's quite. He has an avoidant attachment style, if I had to guess.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:58] So I. I definitely felt that throughout childhood, like, I always had this sense of like, oh, he doesn't love me that much, or. But everything I say kind of comes with a caveat because it's like, I also have a lot of really good memories of my dad where he'd take me swimming or take me on bike rides. So again, I don't want to paint this picture of my parents as a. Is horrible and atrocious. You know, sure, there really, there were ways where they really shined and like I value those memories with my dad of him, you know, showing up for me, playing with me.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:28] I think my dad was the more playful parent and like more able to be like age appropriate than my mum, who I think just kind of doesn't really get kids that well. But my dad I think had more of a sense of like, you know, what a kid needs. Yeah, it's all relative.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:48] Yeah, I hear that. And it's, it is all complicated. Right. So. And stories are complicated. And what ways, like we weigh things, I think emotionally in different ways too. And that can change as we grow and kind of process. So it's, it is all tricky and we're trying to put words to things that are. So we'll just hold that with what we're doing. But what I'm hearing in that is a little bit coming out of childhood, your child brain is, is kind of feeling like mom's more of a victim, dad's more of the perpetrator. Is that right?

Samantha Shelley [00:40:23] Yeah. And I think there's another thing a lot of people can relate to. When you have parents that go through a divorce, it's common for them to vilify each other, which is really the worst thing you can do. I really respect Kim Kardashian for in her divorce with Kanye west, she'll never speak badly about him because she knows that one day her kids are going to see that. And Kanye doesn't. Kanye doesn't do that. And that was just something I thought was tender watching the Kardashians recently. But yeah, it really, it messes you up as a kid hearing your parents vilify each other.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:53] And because my mum became my primary parent once, my once because my parents separation was kind of like a slow. It wasn't like a clear line of like one day dad's here, the next day he's not. It was like he'd be gone for longer at a time or you know, it's more of a process but, but I was definitely being sort of manipulated feels like a strong word. But being coached to basically see my mom as the victim and my dad as the villain when the reality is like more complex and you know, I don't think there necessarily is a victim and a villain.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:30] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:30] In my parents dynamic. But did that, did that at all come from.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:36] Did you feel safer yourself with Your mom than your dad from what you had seen. And is that why that. Or is there really. That's okay. If, if it didn't play out that way, if it had to do with your relationship with. Or is it just complicated and that's okay?

Samantha Shelley [00:41:50] I think as an early child. Yeah. My mum did feel a lot safer.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:55] Just. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:57] Yeah. And also my mum was more of. Felt like, I think more of a stable presence.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:04] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:04] Whereas my dad was kind of all over the place. Yeah. My dad also went through a lot of mental health stuff when I was young, which I probably shouldn't share just because I feel like that's his thing to share. But some. Some intense stuff was going on with him because of his much, much worse childhood trauma. So that's a whole mess that. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:27] Yeah. So that makes total sense to me. If, if. When you're talking about you have happy memories, you know, you have these happy moments with your dad, but then you also have these other moments that are intense and disturbing and more violent. Right. That. That's hard to process. Right. Especially as a child because it's inconsistent. And as a child, sometimes you feel like you can't really figure it out. You can't figure out when they're going to be what. And so it's just dangerous.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:57] Right. Until you can kind of have this. We so want to make rhythm to understand what it is that versus, Even if you have a low grade but stable. I'm not saying this is your mom, but a disconnected but non. It's its own thing. Right. But stability is something that notes a child oftentimes to. To be able to predict and feel safe, like at least you know what it is. Does that make sense?

Samantha Shelley [00:43:22] I think sometimes mums have an easier time with nurturing children kind of. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:29] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:30] Again, there's pros and cons of both my parents, but I do feel like sometimes women are just more naturally geared towards.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:35] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:36] Bringing that sort of stable energy.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:39] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:39] I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:40] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:40] I feel like both of my parents were just kind of thrown into a parenting situation that.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:44] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:45] They weren't prepared for. Maybe.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:47] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm hearing sort of some. Some of your needs really not being met. I'm hearing a lot of trauma, like you having to hold a lot of emotions, a lot of violence at a very young age. Yeah.

Carrying Adult Burdens as a Child

Samantha Shelley [00:44:07] And there was also a lot of, like me knowing things as a child that I shouldn't have known, like things that were way too intense for a child to carry. And my parents sort of using me as a weapon in that way. Like, you know, my mum telling me something my dad had done that was not appropriate for me to know. Oh, and then again, as an only child, you, you have no, no one to share that with. There's no like buffer. Yeah. So you just swallow everything so completely and there's not any other person there to be. Like, mom and dad are like being crazy right now. Right. Like, this is scary. It's just kind of like you're absorbing, internalizing. It was like somehow it's my fault or, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:53] Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. So it also sounds like, you know, clearly from the violence, a lack of boundaries, but also in other ways with treating you, you know, and your brain and your position and being a child, not as a child, but oftentimes like a peer where they tell thing and using you as well. And so definitely also just a lot of.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, it's, it, it's just wild how anyone can have a child. And there's. And we sort of rely on culture to sort of give us most of our parenting lessons. And I, I'm, you know, I'm sure my parents read a few books and stuff, but people generally don't, you know, study like their life depends on it because they're having a kid or I don't think my parents did.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:44] And so again, it's so easy to just not know that like, what you're saying is gonna really mess a child up for a long time. You know, it's not coming from this place of like spite or, you know, it's not coming from a bad place. It's just. Yeah, we have historically just got such bad parenting advice. I mean, it was like only in my grandparents era where I feel like it was still commonplace to kind of, you know, not hug your kids too much because that might make them wusses or whatever and there'll be pushovers or they won't be. Be strong or whatever that is.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:18] So it's like we just all come from such a long line of bad parenting. Yeah, but it's, you know, it's not like my two civil servant parents. They're just like absorbing what culture's telling them in their minds. They're feeding me, I'm clothed, they get me to school one time, they make sure I do my homework, you know, so, yeah, you can, you can see how there's potential for so much trauma without the parents having a knowledge of that. And then also it's. I think it's hard when Parents are in a, you know, a very volatile relationship and trying to make it work and they're dealing with their own stuff from their relationship.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:53] And then there's also a kid involved. That's such a hard thing to navigate because there's an amount that I think my parents were seeing. Like she's kind of a little bit, you know, she's, she's emotionally. She's having a lot of emotional outbursts and yeah. Things she's doing of strange and.

Samantha Shelley [00:47:11] But you don't want to. How much guilt can you really take on without crippling yourself? Like as a parent, you don't want to accept maybe how much you might be affecting your child. You know, it's easier to just be like, well, her main needs are taken care of and she, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:27] That's right.

Samantha Shelley [00:47:27] I think I understand why parents want to sort of like diminish the impact they might be having through like their kids witnessing these horrible things and because like they're just trying to like juggle all these things that in an environment where like we've. They were sold this idea of marriage and parenting that is not accurate. And so like they don't have communication skills in their own relationship or in life. They don't know how to confront their own emotions, let alone to emotionally self regulate. Like they don't know any of this stuff. But suddenly you're like responsible for a new human and you're like wiring, you know, you're writing the code of their brain with every day. That's a lot, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:08] Exactly. I wish I. If there was one. One thing there, we could wish a million things. But I wish it was normalized, you know, culturally that humans do a good deal of processing themselves and their lives before having children.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:27] This idea of just like we don't just. We're not just children and then we grow up and then we're kind of hit in a place where we want to connect with someone and we can talk about even getting processing before you're really overly connecting with people in a. You know, really devoted but like doing that work before you ever bring human beings. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:48] Another just tidbit of my story is my. I was, My parents got married when I was one. I'm sure. Sure. Because they got pregnant. I don't know. I don't actually know the details but. So it wasn't like they were in this like marriage they'd been in for a while and then decided to have a kid.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:04] It was like they had one and then they tried to make it work.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:08] Yeah. Yep. Would you mind just taking a minute? You had brought up your grandmother, and I think it's so important in these places where, you know, there's a lot of darkness in childhood, a lot of things beyond children's control. Feeling loved by someone, feeling seen by someone, and having a resource for that. Like, will you just tell me a little bit about. Did you say. Was it Georgina? Yeah, a little bit about her and what you and I. We can touch on this later, too, because I know this is kind of part of. But what you felt from her and what it gave you.

A Grandmother's Unconditional Love

Samantha Shelley [00:49:50] Yeah. So my grandma was just this overwhelmingly loving presence in my life. She. The way I would describe her is like, well, she was a vegan for 30 years, which I feel like is a. Wow. Yeah. Piece of information before it was trendy. And she was very, like, gentle, still intentional. Just a very, like, calming energy in the family. And always the person in the family that's trying to mediate and bring people together and, like, get people to realize that you guys love each other, you know, stop with this. Yeah. And I mean. And she went through an enormous amount of trauma from, you know, being alive at a time when you had to stay married to abusive men. And. Yes. That's. That's a whole story. Again, I'm. It's. It's hard to know what to say because you never want to tell your.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:48] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:48] Other people's stories. And it is tender because I feel like I'm other than my cousin. It kind of feels like I'm. Well, one of the only people in the family that's really, like, looked at all this to the, like, you know, with the microscope, you know, it's.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:05] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:06] It's interesting being, like, the first person in a family to be kind of conscious things together and being like, hey, guys, like, are you seeing what's happening here? Are you seeing, like, what.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:14] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:15] The situation is with our family, and I love my family. And again, none of this is a. Is a criticism of them. I just think it's like Chance, who feels. Who has the resources and circumstances in life to kind of be able to take stock of everything and figure out how it all fits together, because I think it's like, most of us don't want to do that because it's painful. And we have all these mechanisms in our brain to stop us from looking at things, you know, and people are just trying to survive from one day to the next. They're not trying to look at all their trauma.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:48] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:49] I think in British culture and in my family, you know, there's very much a sense of like, you don't need to like look at the bad. You know, we just kind of need to keep our chin up. And British culture is pretty unemotional generally in a lot of ways. Yeah, I feel like it's a sort of a stereotype that Americans, they all have a therapist and Americans are all about feelings and they're also like, oh, interesting, you know, friendly and smiley and British culture is just not really like that. It's very much like a bit cringe if you're too emotional or too vulnerable. And yeah, I feel like my, my whole healing experience, I wonder if it would have been possible in the uk.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:26] Like, I feel like so much good has come from me living in America just because of the way that America, I mean, not to say that America has a handle on mental health, because it doesn't. But I do think there's, you know, just the fact that therapists are more ubiquitous and stuff like that. Yeah, what were you talking about?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:45] Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that a little bit about your, your grandmother.

Teenage Years, Bullying, and Safe Spaces

Samantha Shelley [00:52:53] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:56] So if we move kind of into you as a teen now. So it seems it's. Did you mention that your parents got divorced at 10 or so somewhere?

Samantha Shelley [00:53:05] I think it was around 12 or 12, but I think by 10 my dad was like not really living with us. So yeah, between like 10 and 12 that process was okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:14] So you, you kind of talked about as a child being good at school. Right. And having. But also socially feeling this sense of like, I don't know how you would describe it, but just sort of being different in the world, in your connections with people and feeling sometimes othered in situations or that aloneness of at home, sometimes following you into some of your social kind of contexts at school. If, if can you follow us through, through your teen years and, and maybe even the coping that starts emerging because that's. We have coping as children and we also are really limited in how we cope as children.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:58] I think some of the larger. We start to see things really oftentimes in the teens and twenties. If. I don't know if you agree with that, but yeah. What starts emerging coping wise? Who are you? What's your identity? What are your, you know, how do we find you as a teen?

Samantha Shelley [00:54:15] Okay, so secondary school, which starts at around 11 in England and goes to 16. I started to have more close friends because basically my mom is best friends with a group of women and all of us kids just were good friends. So it was like a convenience friendship, but a really good one. I.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:37] Another element of my childhood is that until I was 11, from about 2 to 11, my best friend, who I was born next to in hospital, we're born a day apart. Her mum was my childminder, so for a lot of my childhood she was looking after me because my parents both worked. She was also a very, like, healing, balancing force. And I think all the social skills I do have or did have, like, probably came from her. Like, I think she was a good counterbalance to sort of the craziness of my home. It was like I could. I went to this home a lot and it was more stable and safe and normal and healthy and there was laughter in the home.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:11] And, you know, it wasn't just my home felt very, like, morose and like, there was just like this dark rim energy all the time. But this was like a, you know, a lighter home with multiple kids. So anyway, grew up with that best friend and she was one of my best friends throughout high school, along with some of our other friends, again, all within this, like, little group that my mum was friends with.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:39] And then. So that. That was good for me, just having, like, a more stable friendship group, not having to, like, scam my way onto.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:46] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:47] Into social situations on the playground. Yeah, yeah. But going into secondary school was when I started to get bullied really badly for being overweight. Primary school, there'd been like, a little bit of that, you know, but it was generally just that I was an outsider because I was, I think, a bit of a weirdo. But then at secondary school, it was very much like, we hate you because you're fat, you know, and it was mainly a group of boys in my class who would bully me a lot. But it was kind of like, it was pretty widespread, like, among. I felt like sort of everyone in my year group knew me as, like. I don't know, Like, I felt like Sam Shelley was like a slur. Like, it was just like a name that people knew was like, to be mocked. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:35] That's the best. Really painful. I'm so sorry. Wow.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:41] So, yeah, I started dealing with bullying a lot and it. It kind of carried over to my friends as well. Like, they would get a bullied, I think, because of me. I mean, maybe they. You know, boys are mean at that age, and maybe it would have happened regardless, but it kind of felt like I was kind of like the center point. But then because they associated with me, they would get bullied. So me and three of Those friends, we all had to stop taking the school bus together because the boys would, like, throw things at us and, like, bully us so badly.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:11] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:14] So. Which did suck. But it was. I don't know, I think because I had, like, this group of friends, which was not like this perfect, healthy group of friends, you know, like young girls are.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:24] But now you have. You're not alone.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:26] It's like, I wasn't alone. So the. Again, it didn't feel like the bullying got to me that much. There were definitely times where it did, but I wasn't like the archetype of a. A bullied person who was sort of, like, cowering in the corner all the time. I think I sort of still maintained this, like, weird confidence and, like, I would, like, you know, bite back at the bullies and, like, you know, try and give good comebacks and stuff and act like I was okay with it in a way.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:58] But, yeah, it was kind of just like this obstacle of like, whatever new classroom I went into because, you know, you have different classes of different people. It was like, what will you find? Yeah, it was like I was. I was going in, like, at a disadvantage. Like, people knew I wasn't. It, like, wasn't cool. To like me, I suppose, is like, a way you could describe it.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:21] But I also really enjoyed school, and it. It didn't, like, kill my enthusiasm for my classes, really. If anything, it probably just made me channel my energy harder into succeeding in school. So again, like, a mixed bag. Like, I don't remember being bullied as it was traumatic, but I don't. It wasn't as traumatic as, like, my home life had been. Yeah, so. But I would get in trouble for sort of situations related to bullies. So, like, one time I hit a boy on the head with a rolling pin in a cooking class when I was, like, 13. Another time I got an instant slip for hitting a boy with a ruler. So I had that, like, instinct to fight back, but it got me in trouble sometimes.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:06] Okay. Yeah. You. You have experienced just a lot, I feel like, of do. Here's what I'll say of just situations, repeated situations of just where safety, you know, your. Your own personal safety was not secure.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:28] Did you have safe spaces? Was academia safe space? Like, did you. What were your safe spaces? If. And were you able. Able to cultivate any, especially as a teen? And if so, what.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:41] What.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:41] What were they?

Samantha Shelley [00:59:42] Yeah, so school was generally safe. And I don't think there was much, like, physical bullying because I think because of. It was mostly boys that would Bully me.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:53] So emotional more like.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:54] I think if I'd been a boy, then those boys would have been violent. But I think there's maybe like a little, you know, there were elements of physical violence, but it was mostly emotional, which. I don't know, I think I just had a thick skin by that point, so. So it didn't bother me that much. And especially because it was a thing that bonded me with my friends.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:12] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:13] You know, like, screw them. That didn't necessarily get to me too much. So school did feel like a safe space. It wasn't like I was worried about showing up and getting beaten up or anything.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:22] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:23] And, you know, teachers were good. Generally teachers were aware that I was being bullied and they would like, try to sort of step in where they could. But. Yeah, there's only so much you can do. So school was a safe place. My friends houses were safe spaces.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:38] Yeah,

Samantha Shelley [01:00:41] yeah. And. And by this point, because my dad had moved out, my home was sometimes a safe space. You know, as I came more into my teenage years, my relationship with my mum got a lot harder and more volatile. But it wasn't. It wasn't too bad. You know, I had my own room. I could retreat too. And I mean, reading, I think, was a big, like escapist, safe space thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:04] That's right.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:05] So I'd always be able to escape into a book.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:08] Do you remember what books you were drawn to at that age by chance?

Samantha Shelley [01:01:12] I remember when I was like 14, I read this book called A Thousand Splendid suns. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:17] At 14.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:18] And I loved it. Yes, I know. Just. Cause I think I would just burn through books because I had nothing else to do.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:23] That's a powerful book.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:25] I know. And I wonder how much I even understood it at that age. I mean, I remember it being powerful, though. Very powerful. I don't know, I'd read all sorts. I never was really that drawn to, like, fantasy. It would usually be more like. I would read a lot of like, chick lit, you know, meant for adults as like a young teen.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:44] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:44] Or stuff more. That's more like emotional, psychological than necessarily fancy. Although I did love, you know, like Harry Potter and.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:52] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:52] His Dark Materials, I think it was. And all those books. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:56] Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Thank you.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:58] Yeah. So a good amount of safe spaces is what I'm saying, which I think makes a difference.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:04] Yeah, yeah. And at this point, culturally, just a note because, you know, I feel like American culture at during, like right now is very fat phobic. We have a very fat.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:19] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:19] How.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:20] How Is England so fat phobic?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:22] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:23] In the 90s and the 2000s. Yeah. Every, every. Oh, God, there was so many tabloid newspapers. Magazines. Just like every magazine and newspaper. It felt like every week it would be like a zoom in on a celebrity cellulite or like, look how much weight this celebrity has gained. Or on TV there will be so many shows like Super Sized vs Super Skinny, where they swap a fat person and a skinny person's diet. And there's so much. It was just rampant fat shaming. And it's through the lens of health. You know, that's always kind of like the. The mask that fatphobia will. Will take.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:58] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:58] But it was brutal. Absolutely brutal. And it was very much the era of like Nicole Richie, Paris Hilton. Like, being as underweight as possible was aspirational.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:09] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:10] So, yeah, it was bad. My mom was on Weight Watchers. I actually went to Weight Watchers myself when I was like 12. They just, like, let me come to the meetings and I would, like, do the program, but I wasn't like, officially a member. And I remember having a period where I got really into like the points tracking system. So, yeah, definitely started trying to lose weight at a young age, but then also food was my coping mechanism, so that was tough to straddle.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:38] Got it. And if we were going to look at the ways that you kind of coped as a teen with the pain or suffering or stress that you feel, what would you say about that? What was your kind of. Your coping during those years? If. If you can kind of identify?

Samantha Shelley [01:03:55] I mean, I think I spent as much time with friends as possible, which I think was a healthy impulse because that was, you know, recognizing, like, I'm safe when I'm with friends at home. And, you know, everything, again, it's just. Just felt darker in my home. But with.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:12] It's like I led these two lives. You know, if I was at a friend's, you know, I'm bubbly, I'm creative and playful. We're laughing. Not that I didn't have, like, my social weaknesses, but, you know, it's pretty. Pretty normal and fun.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:27] So I think, yeah, that was a healthy coping mechanism. Being obsessed with school was a healthy coping mechanism. I think, you know, reading. So a lot of healthy coping mechanisms. Now I'm saying out loud, this interview is so interesting to me because it's like I'm observing what's coming out of my mouth. It's like, oh, that's so interesting. That's how. That's the piece that came to you in this moment. Yeah, but I think food was like the big sort of less healthy coping mechanism.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:56] And I, I think as I started getting into being a teenager, once I started secondary school, I just feel like. Cause you have more control over what you eat. Yeah, it took on like another level of like binge eating and.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:10] Yeah. Just really turning to food for comfort and I didn't obviously know at the time I was turning to food for comfort. You know, I just thought I really liked food and yeah, for some reason everyone else didn't like food as much as me and. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's all I'm thinking of right now in terms of coping mechanisms.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:27] And so when you kind of. If we were going to think about which I know this may work or this may not work, but kind of this idea of your eating disorder in particular, was it born. It probably had like, was you kind of say it's been with you in some form or another kind of through. But was it born in teen years or was it later? Or like as you kind of. How. How would you talk about it? I guess is what I would say.

Struggling with Disordered Eating as a Teen

Samantha Shelley [01:05:56] So. So I would say I had some like binge eating tendencies from when I was a young child, but I would say around once I entered secondary school, like 12, 13 was when my attempts to lose weight started.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:10] And so that's kind of the birthplace of it. But in the beginning it's just kind of, you know, I'm trying to lose weight. I'm doing what these weight watchers magazines say to do or whatever. And I would say it wasn't until I was like fifth, I think 15, 16, that it became.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:28] That was when I had, that's when I had this moment where I was like, I am gonna lose weight. Like this. This has to change. Because in my brain all of my problems were because I was fat. Like, that was the reason everyone hated me. That was the reason I'd never been. I think probably on some subconscious level I like related everything in my life that had been bad to that because I remember even when I was a young kid, like have a memory of being for. I feel like I've told this on like three different podcasts for some reason. But being four years old and my dad being like, what do you want to be when you're older?

Samantha Shelley [01:06:58] And I said a ballet dancer. And he said, well, you have to be thin if you want to be a ballet dancer. So I think I was probably starting to gain weight maybe at 4, and that was my dad's very health conscious. So I know it came from a good place, but obviously wasn't valuable or helpful.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:13] But yeah, I think, I think I kind of always associated being like a bad kid or an unlovable kid with being fat because partly it was true. Like, even the way adults would treat me as like a 9, 10, 11, 12 year old was different. Like my friends would be treated differently because they were like small and cute and even adults have a hard time like empathizing, especially because these adults have internalized diet culture and like fat phobia. And like even the way they would treat me as a child was different because I was fat.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:46] That's right.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:47] So it's like I was picking up on truths in the culture. But yeah, I think I just had this mindset. 15, 16, like this has to change because all my problems in life are because I'm fat. And so that's when I went on like a really relentless campaign to lose weight. And I lost a lot of weight and became like kind of underweight. And so that was sort of like the start of what I would consider like a real eating disorder. Although to be honest, it's like I'd had disordered eating my whole life. It just merged in what form it took. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:18] Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:19] Yeah, that was when I got good at restriction. Was like.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:23] So the restriction kind of part started.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:26] When you were a teen. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:30] And just really quickly. So that's a form of coping.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:35] Right. And so in looking at that, how, what would you say the eating disorder gave you or relieved you of?

Samantha Shelley [01:08:46] Well, I mean, it did boost my, it's, it's. Everything's such a, such a paradox sometimes. But yeah, it did boost my self esteem getting thin because like popular girls at school would be like, oh my God, you look so thin, like, how did you do it? And you know, girls that probably wouldn't have spoke to me before and you know, I obviously couldn't be bullied for being fat anymore, which made me feel powerful, you know, like I've shared this, like, you can't bully me for being fat anymore. I'm not.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:17] Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:09:18] And, but so empowered in a way

Margi Dehlin [01:09:20] because you kind of like narrative.

Samantha Shelley [01:09:23] Yeah. And it, it, the, especially in the beginning, like the, it's so, it's very enticing, like feeling like you have control over like this fundamental urge to like eat and, and going, you know, much further than you should in restricting like does make you feel powerful.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:48] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:09:51] But then I think, because obviously losing weight doesn't heal any of your trauma and doesn't, you know, it's not actually fixing anything except for, like, this small piece of the puzzle, which is like being bullied for being fat. And I would say by the time I was 15, 16, like, the bullying had kind of tapered off anyway, just because I feel like people had better things to do. And also I was, like, more segregated. In England. They, like, segregate you a lot according to, like, ability in school. So I felt like the people that bullied me the most weren't really in my classes anymore. So that had kind of died down. But, you know, it's still, like, lingered that I had this, like, reputation as being the fat girl.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:32] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:10:34] But what did it give me? I think it's. It's hot for me. Like, when I was, you know, had become thin, it was like, well, I still don't feel good, so I need to be thinner. And everything just got channeled into. You need to be thinner. And that. That's the thing that's going to make things better.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:50] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:10:50] Which now looking. Obviously that was never the case, but.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:10:54] Yeah. It's like, that's all I knew to do. Like, I didn't have anything close to, like, a concept of, like, you've gone through a lot of stuff.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:04] Your parents have not been able to parent you the way that you've needed. You know, all this stuff has happened to you. Your earliest memories are so traumatic. Like, I didn't have any concept of any of that. And even stuff that I, like, could remember sometimes was just, like, kind of irrelevant to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:20] So I just thought you got to get thinner.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:23] That's right. Yep. Yeah. Did you have a sense for. I'm genuinely curious if it feels like for so much of your life, you had just so much incoming that was not yours. It wasn't yours to hold. It was like, culture or your parents or conflict or, you know, being alone or, like, so much that wasn't yours. Did you have this sense of relief in making it about one thing? You had one objective, I'm sure.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:02] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:03] That sort of idea of.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:04] Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think that is, like, one of the largest appeals of eating disorders to people that fall victim to them is. Yeah, yeah. You just channel everything into that and so you don't have to think about anything else.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:17] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:17] And it's like you just measure success or failure according to that.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:22] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:24] And on the other side, I mean, it probably. Did you have the eating disorder for some years? I'm wondering if I should ask this now or later, but the kickback there's Always some kickback. Right. With eating disorders of what it takes from you. Right. Or what it. Did that show up in your teen years, or did it take some time to play that out where, like, how

Samantha Shelley [01:12:45] it negatively impacted my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:46] Like, what it.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:47] Yeah, I mean, it did, like, strain some of my relationships with my friends and made weird stuff with my family dynamics. I have an uncle who is dying of anorexia. So eating disorders are a very insidious, like, vulnerable point in my family. And so, you know, can I ask

John Dehlin [01:13:07] how it strained your relationship with friends? I'm just curious.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:12] There's so much complexity with, like, female eating disorders, especially because a lot of my friends were also having, like, lighter, perhaps, versions of eating disorders. Love that. You're just eating a lollipop, having this conversation. Yeah. I think there was a weird sort of rivalry among me and my friends, like, that I had some friendships where we would, like, in, like, engage in disordered eating behavior together, and they can become, you know, for a coalition.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:42] You inspire kind of each other.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:44] Yeah. And then just like, I can't. The way that There's a really good chapter in Glennon Doyle's Untamed. Have you read that? Yeah. Where she talks about how Johnny listening. When she was like. She was having this sleepover with her kids, and she had, like, her boys and his boyfriends and then her girls and their girlfriends. And she came into the room and she said, does anyone want. Is anyone hungry? Like, like, I can make some pizza rolls or whatever. And all the boys just carried on watching the movie and were like, yeah. And then all the girls, like, looked at each other to, like, figure out if they were hungry.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:17] And then they were like, no, we're not hungry. And that's very much a dynamic that is familiar to me from my teen years is like, just like, eating and being a woman, being a girl is like, there's so much there.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:32] So it's like, you know, if. If I. If I hung out with a friend and she wasn't eating dinner, I would, like, resent her for that. Cause I'd be like, so j. Jealous. Like, damn. She's like, not eating dinner. That's like, I wish I could do that. Or, you know, or vice versa. You know, if I'd go out with a friend and I never wanted to eat, they'd be like, well, I can't eat if you're not eating. So then, you know, there's. There's so much.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:53] It becomes, like, an issue. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:55] It's just a defining.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:56] Yeah. And when I You know, I had like multiple friends who were also like. Like their disordered relationship with eating was a. Was a big deal and like a pretty primary focus for them. So all of us kind of dealing with that together and then also navigating, like just teenage girl stuff generally of like, jealousy and resentment. You know, all of that was just like a.

John Dehlin [01:15:17] Like, she's cuter. She's definitely cuter.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:21] Competitiveness.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:23] Yeah. Especially because my best friend who I was born next to, she was always. Also a lot of my friends were dancers, which was another thing that added to my complex. And I had always wanted to be a dancer because I loved doing musical theater, but I never took any dance classes because I was so scared to be in a leotard because I was overweight. So I just never, as a kid learned to dance. That's something that makes me sad today because I'm like, I could know how to dance.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:43] That's a loss for sure.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:45] Yeah. But my best friend who I was born next to and kind of like raised alongside was this like, tiny, petite dancer. And so, you know, had a whole complex about that. And people would always treat her like, so gently and she was so cute and lovable and likable. And I was just kind of like the weird kid that even adults were just kind of like not. Not warm towards in the same way.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:08] They're just. It feels like there are just so many layers to this because there's like the cultural layer around fat phobia or skinny privilege which sort of assigns character traits to each, which definitely, incredibly, it's just mind boggling. But we do. And being a child and picking up on that, like, oh, more positive attention if you're. If you're in this body or if you're attractive or if you're, you know, or whatever. So you have kind of that layer. Then you have like, trauma layer. So there's like coping with pain.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:40] And you have sort of control, like the control aspect.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:45] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:45] Of like, having something when so much of your life has been out of control, then having control over something is. And then you have like, worthiness. Like this idea of, like, I did, I can deny myself life by not eating. Like, I feel so on some level, a sense of shame about who I am, which you've. You've kind of talked about a little bit. Like you're. You were to blame or you were to. You were responsible. You were the common denominator to all these things happening around you that were painful.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:15] And so kind of taking this oftentimes unconscious sort of position of like, I don't deserve space. I will take up as least the, the least amount of space possible and deny myself life because I don't deserve it.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:31] And just attaching your worth to you, being able to do something that you are fundamentally wired not to do, which is to starve yourself, is a losing game. It's like, it's the perfect thing for trauma to co opt because it's, it's just like you are always going to feel inherently not good enough and inherently, I don't know, just like worthy of derision. Because no one can starve themselves that successfully for that long. I mean, some people can and they'll die from it.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:02] Like there's no winning in that scenario. You know.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:04] That's right.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:05] And it's like food binge eating was my primary coping thing, primary unhealthy coping mechanism for my trauma. And then it also became the cause of more trauma because I was bullied for being overweight so much. So then of course, naturally in my brain, like the, the problem is me being thin or fat or how much I eat. Like that becomes like the focus way I'm, I'm conceptualizing everything. I've got like, no understanding of like, what's actually going on here.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:34] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:34] In my mind it's like this is my reality. Like, and there were times where it was like, it doesn't matter what happens to me, like from this eating disorder. Like, this is kind of all I have. Like, I don't know who I am without it. And it was like that for a certain point of like. Yeah. I, I understand very clearly why people die of eating disorders. Because it's like it, once that sort of takes root in your brain, it's like, I don't, it's like a drug addiction, you know, or like any kind of thing that people find hard to give up even though it destroys their lives.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:09] Right. Yeah. You've talked about kind of the insidiousness of eating disorders with regard to therapy. Right. Hard to treat. Notoriously for sure.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] It's generally known as the most deadly.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:22] Of all eating disorders and the most difficult to treat.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:26] It's just been kind of understood in my family that my uncle is going to die of anorexia. And it's like he's, he's tried different therapies, different treatments, like all around the country, but it's just, it's so deep in there. It's not, not really like viable at this point that anything could change.

John Dehlin [01:19:44] That's so not to make people think that there's no hope because treatment can make a difference. But it's just. It's just among the more challenging and honestly deadly, but still worth seeking treatment for.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:56] And especially, I mean, if you have it in you to want to recover, that's the biggest piece, and that's the piece that I don't know that my uncle necessarily, necessarily has.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:03] Is, like, such a good point.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:05] Yeah, such. And I. I understand that feeling of, like, I don't want to recover. Like, I don't. I don't care about anything else. It. This is just how it is. I think it's. It's kind of like with Mormonism, the. The pivotal question is, like, if it wasn't true, would you want to know? I feel like with eating disorders, it's like, do you have that. Do you want to be recovered?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:25] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:26] Do you want to be free of this? And until you get to that point, I don't. It's very hot. You know, you can, like, force feed people and put him in a treatment center, but.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take us through, too. So you remind me again when you met up with Mormonism and how that came to be, because I'm curious if that was sort of a. I don't know about coping, but, like, if.

First Encounters with Mormonism

Samantha Shelley [01:20:58] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:59] Like, what kind of primed you to be the. You know, to be in that place where it kind of swooped in and was able to kind of take hold.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:09] Yeah. So I'm the. The first sort of touch point with Mormonism, for me was. Well, moral of the story is I had a friend in high school who was Mormon, and we found out he was Mormon because he wasn't gonna do this play, which is called Godspell, because I think it's maybe blasphemous to some people. And so we. That was how we all sort of found out that Mormonism was even a thing that existed. I think there had been one joke in Friends, one time where Rachel jokes about being a Mormon because she's not drinking while pregnant. That was maybe my first ever. I don't know. Mormonism was just not a thing, basically.

John Dehlin [01:21:41] What about Donnie and Marie?

Samantha Shelley [01:21:43] Couldn't talk.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:44] They never got.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:45] I think my mum maybe likes Johnny and Marie, but I don't think she would have. The Mormonism thing probably wasn't a. I don't know if she even knew that they were or. We think.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] We think we're so important.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:54] You think you're simple. Yeah. I truly knew nothing about Mormonism until, like, that joke in friends or being 15 and finding out that my friend was a Mormon. I'd never heard of it, knew nothing. So

John Dehlin [01:22:09] I guess there's the Mormon Tabernacle. I'm just trying to think there's a Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:13] Absolutely not. Not even, not even like three miles close to my radar. Like, just. No, nothing like that. And I'm sure like in America it would be different, you know, like, it's an American religion at the end of the day, so it's not. Yeah, there's a million reasons.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] Okay, sorry, I'm trying to defend irrelevant.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:34] Like, how dare we be so irrelevant.

John Dehlin [01:22:36] Irrelevant. But like, what about Mormon missionaries? Always being everywhere, knocking on everyone's doors.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:42] I've never. Maybe I'd like seen them, but I just, I maybe thought they were like salesmen. I don't know. Like, if I'm sure at some point in my life I'd seen a pair of Mormon missionaries, but it wouldn't have registered to me like, that they're even like a religious thing. I probably could have just thought, like, they're selling something or just like didn't even enter my field of vision, you know. But then When I was 15, my friend was like, oh, do you want to come over to dinner and meet with the missionaries? I can't remember if I went or not. I think I did. And I liked it because, you know, they. You're kind of in a missionary lesson. You're. You're in the hot seat, you know, like they're asking you questions about yourself and they're bringing like a warm, loving energy. And that's right.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:26] You're the focus. You're seen.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:27] Exactly. And there's like space for emotion, you know, even. It's sort of like a manufactured in certain ways. But yeah. Anyway, I had said something to my mum about it, about wanting to do it again, and she was like, absolutely not. Like, they're like a weird cult. Like, I don't want you doing that.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:47] And so that was the end of that. And then like a year later, one of my other friends, her and her mum, who was friends with my mum, Remember all my friends are kind of like in a. It's a tight knit sort of group with my mum and her friends and the daughters.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:00] They were gonna get like the six missionary lessons. But I think it was pitched to all of us as like, it almost felt like we were gonna be like taking a class to like learn about our friends religion. Like, we didn't have the mindset of like, they're gonna try and convert us necessarily. It was just like, this will be fun to, like, learn about a religion. Because, you know, I liked Ari in school.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:20] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:21] And because my mum's friend and her daughter were gonna take these six lessons, my mum was like, okay, well, you can do it too, because, like, you know, my friend's gonna be there, so I'm not. You know, she wasn't worried about me accidentally joining a cult. She's like, there's gonna be another adult there who's not Mormon and. Right. But basically, once we started doing these lessons, like, I took it on just. I. Because I think it's just so hungry for, like, the sense of belonging.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] The.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:48] You know, they very much hit on points like, oh, I remember one missionary lesson. There's a. There's a scripture that's like. I think it's the one that's like, for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son. But they asked me to put my name into the world, so I had to read out loud. Feels very powerful, doesn't it? Right. Like, knowing anything about psychology, you're like, of course for God.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] Love, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:09] Yeah. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:10] And you're. And all that you've been through.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:12] Yeah. And I'm 16. Right. And I don't, like. I don't know much about religion. Like, I've sort of had re classes and, like, got A's in them, but that doesn't really mean anything in terms of, like, actually understanding, like, the mindsets of religion or critical thinking. Yeah. And I do again, I'd always had, like, this flavor of Christianity in my brain of, like, maybe there's a God who loves me. And, you know, it's not like I was going to gravitate towards a Hindu God or like a. You know, it makes sense that it would be Christian in my mind because of the culture. So, yeah, basically, I started, like, taking to it, looking back, so clearly because of, you know, the love bombing. I say love bombing, but I think it's, like. Was also genuine. I don't mean to, like, disparage.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] What did the love bombing look like?

Samantha Shelley [01:26:00] Well, you know, the missionaries are very much like. I think they would be pretty. Like, I think they liked me as an investigator because we'd have, like, kind of, like a funny time together and, you know, we'd banter, and we're not that different in age, so I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:26:17] Were they British or us?

Samantha Shelley [01:26:18] No, I think one was American, one was German. My first set, I don't know, I had. I had a bunch of different missionaries.

John Dehlin [01:26:23] What Was that like, like, was there some exoticism of an American and a German?

Samantha Shelley [01:26:27] Yeah, probably a little bit, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:28] An older boy show an interest?

Samantha Shelley [01:26:31] Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I'm sure that was part of it. Just feeling it wasn't like a romantic or like, it wasn't like a crush thing, but it was just like, you know, these like, nice looking boys are taking interest in me as a human. You know, that's appealing and giving you something.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:46] Just that actually, you know, seems to meet some of those psychological needs and. And a salve for the wounds so far. Right? Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:58] And my friend's family is lovely. Like, they are some of like the loveliest Mormons you'll ever meet and they are very genuine. I think there's something about being a British Mormon that, you know, facilitates more genuineness because you have to fit into a culture that is hostile to religion. And so you can't have too much of an ego about being superior. You know, it's. There's just ways that living in like Utah county, for example, is going to just create a totally different archetype of member than the uk.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:27] That makes sense.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:28] This family is just a lovely family. Both of the kids won like the award at our school in their year group for like, it was something along the lines of just like nicest person in the year group, like just kindest person. So just. Yeah, that was appealing. Just being in their home was. Their home was a very safe space.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:46] Oh, and then there's that too.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:48] Felt very held by them.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] It's so funny because there's that south park episode called, you know, all about the Mormons or whatever.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] And that's the main. I mean, it does make fun of Joseph Smith and the Angel Moroni and the golden plates and all that. But I think the main takeaway is that even though Mormon beliefs are weird, Mormon families are super nice and. And Mormons are generally friendly people and that I think that's what you experienced.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:14] Yeah. And I mean, having experienced like all kinds of flavors of Mormonism since moving to America, I would say, like, it's not like that everywhere and politeness is not kindness and. Yeah. But this family is just a genuinely lovely family through and through, with or without Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:31] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:32] So, yeah, it was all very appealing to me. And then I had this one. This was around the time that me and my friends have started drinking, which is pretty normal in England, like 15, 16, because we can drink at 18 and most of us had parents that were like, we'd rather you drink in the house. Like we'll give you, like, small amounts of alcohol and, you know, which I think is not a bad approach.

The Decision to Join the Church and Get Baptized

Samantha Shelley [01:28:54] But I had gone to this party one night and just got way too drunk and was probably underfed and just like drank too much for a child who didn't know their limits. And I mean, this is just like part of growing up is like learning your limits with alcohol. And it's like most people have to have some bad experiences to kind of get a handle on it.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:13] So looking back, it's all pretty innocent. But I got so drunk at this party and everyone was drunk at this party, but I got so drunk that someone called my mum. And so basically I got in, like, huge trouble. Or maybe it wasn't huge trouble, but it felt like huge trouble because my mom had to come pick me up at 4am, which is probably the piece she was annoyed about was, like, having to get out of bed at 4am, not necessarily the drinking. And also I think she was, like, wondering if I'd taken drugs because I was so out of it, which I hadn't.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:45] Anyway, I woke up the next day and my mum had, like, gone to the shops to get something. And I just remember waking up and being like, ah, I've gotta, like, I cannot deal with my mum today. Like, this. I cannot deal with this right now. And my Mormon friend texted me and was like, do you want to come to church? And I'd never been to church before. I'd done missionary lessons. I think I'd gone to a mutual thing, but I'd never gone to actual church. And so I was like, yep, okay. That will, like, get me out.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:10] Interesting. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:11] And I'd already been having, like, the missionary lessons and kind of vibing with it. And I remember feeling like, a small amount of guilt for, like, drinking at this party because I've been learning a bit about Mormonism, but, like, it hadn't taken root that much at that point. Anyway, moral of the story is I went to church that day and had a really lovely, safe day. Like, I went to church and then I hung out with my Mormon friend's family.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:37] And it's just a really lovely day. And that was the day that I think it really took root in my brain, is like, this is what I want to do now. And it also, I think I was feeling a lot of shame about what had happened at the party the night before. And I think there were just various ways that I'd been, like, in drama with friends just because my emotional life was so chaotic.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:59] And so I Think my life had just been feeling rocky for a while as it is for a lot of 16 year olds, you know. So I think it was appealing, the idea that I could have this new identity where I wouldn't drink anymore and you know, everything could just be good and wholesome and it's like a do

Margi Dehlin [01:31:15] over, a start over.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:17] Yeah. So basically that was kind of the day it really took root and from there just got progressively more indoctrinated.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:24] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:25] And I mean, had a good time with it, but yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:31] Yeah. Well, I'm ready to move into suffering. But are there any follow ups that you wanted to have around the joining the church part?

John Dehlin [01:31:39] Well, I don't know exactly. You're saying the suffering after, after high school kind of thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:48] It's kind of going to sort of all this unconscious kind of pain and these ways of coping.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:54] You know, some moments from this time where she's attempting to cover the basis.

John Dehlin [01:31:59] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:00] The basis of pain and suffering. What are some moments of suffering from?

John Dehlin [01:32:04] I do want to follow the thread of you converting, actually officially converting to the church. And then what leads you to. To go to Rexburg, Idaho, of all places to live. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:16] Yeah, let's do that.

John Dehlin [01:32:17] Let's. Let's cover that. And then Margi, you weave.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:20] Your questions into the timeline, if that's okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:23] But I'm dying to know how you go from freaking. What. What part of England?

Samantha Shelley [01:32:28] I know Essex.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] From Essex to Rexburg. That should be your biography. From Essex to Rexburg.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:35] Yeah. I mean basically it was just appealing to me the thought that I could go to a Mormon university.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] No, but I mean you had to get converted first. Sorry.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:43] Sure. Yeah. So from that day at church, I just progressively got more indoctrinated, as I said. Yeah. Just started going to all the stuff. Did seminary. Got my like young woman's personal progress.

John Dehlin [01:32:55] As a non member?

Samantha Shelley [01:32:57] No, as a. Well, so my mum made me wait a year to get baptized. So I didn't get baptized till I was about 17 and a half or so.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:01] You like, you cruised?

Samantha Shelley [01:33:04] Yeah. Oh, I.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:05] To get that medallion.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:06] Yes, I did, I did. Maggie, thank you for listening. Can I just say, my overachiever school mindset absolutely carried into Mormonism. I was like, I'm doing seminary, I'm getting my personal progress, I'm winning the scripture mastery chase. I didn't.

John Dehlin [01:33:18] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:18] But yeah. Which I think was another appealing thing. You know, Mormonism had also had the structure for success which I had always been drawn to. You know, if there's like a designated Path to success. And I just have to read a bunch of stuff and write a bunch of stuff to get it easy. That was like my main thing was like reading and writing.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:36] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:37] And that makes getting self worth from the achievement.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:33:42] So it was talk about the decision to get baptized and then anything you want to, you want to say about that?

Samantha Shelley [01:33:47] Yeah. So I mean, I wanted to get baptized pretty soon after that church day I described, but my mum was like, no, I don't know that, that seems too much. And they have a rule. I don't know what it's like here, but basically if you're under 18, you have to have your parents permission. So my mom was like, I'm not gonna give it to you. But I was very much like, however much the missionaries would sort of pressure me, I was like, well, God's not gonna withhold blessings from me because I'm not baptized because my mum won't let me be. So it didn't really bother me that I couldn't be baptized. I wasn't like knocking on like, please let me get baptized. If anything, it was kind of a relief, you know, it's just like, well, the decisions were made for me, so I'll just keep being like a devout Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:22] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:23] And honestly, it's like it's no different from being baptized. And that's an interesting thing about joining the church as an adult is obviously if you're a kid and you're getting baptized at 8, you're like, well, I have the gift of the Holy Ghost. But you don't know what it's like to not have the gift of the Holy Ghost. You have no, like, measuring stick. But it was no different like before and after getting baptized in terms of like how I felt. Yeah. Nothing was different.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] Once you were hooked and committed, would you have said, I believe in God now, or I believe in Jesus now or I know the Mormon Church is true and did you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph

Samantha Shelley [01:34:56] Smith, all of it?

John Dehlin [01:34:58] How did you, how would you describe you feeling or thinking that you had a testimony of all that stuff?

Samantha Shelley [01:35:06] You know, it's a process and it, there is, there's, it is like convincing yourself. And I know if you talk to any believing, currently believing convert, they'll be like, no. Well then you were never. But it is. You do, you do convince yourself. Or maybe some people have the type of psyche where it doesn't feel like they're convincing themselves. It just feels so all encompassing. But I remember there was this one day after I Had a missionary lesson. I was at the bowling alley with my friends. I don't even know if my Mormon friend was there. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:37] But I just remember feeling this overwhelming feeling of joy. And it was. Looking back on it now, it was just a feeling like, you might get if you, like, I don't know, have two Cokes and get, like, a sugar and caffeine spike. And, you know, that feeling of, like, elation that you can get from, like, going to brunch with a friend and just, like, feeling really seen in that moment or, like, those things just, like, happen randomly in life, you know, where you just feel really good. But I remember being like, oh, is this because of. I think I'd maybe done, like, the Moroni's Promise prayer.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:08] I can't remember the thing where you pray and you're like, is this true? I had a couple rounds of that before I felt like I had an answer and nothing really ever happened. But then they really prime you and coach you to be like, anything counts as an answer. So I remember being at this bowling alley, I think, and having this really big feeling of joy and being like, maybe this is because Mormonism is true. And it's like my. My prayer being answered. And then, like, the missionaries, like, happened to call me while I was there, which was just kind of a coincidence, but not that much of a coincidence because they'd call me all the time.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:43] They were very on it. So then I spoke to them on the phone. And then, you know, it's just like, I was in this place where I so desperately, like, essentially, it was, like, wanting connection to myself and to others and to this higher thing and to, like, feel this grander sense of, like, purpose and meaning and love.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:00] And this was. This was being provided as. As the answer. So, you know, obviously I tell the missionaries on the phone, like, oh, it's weird that you. Cool, because I just had this feeling. And. And who's to say like, what the. Every time you think about a story like this, you kind of recast it in your mind. So I don't know all the specific details, but basically what happened is that was, like, a pivotal point and being like, yeah, well, I guess I've got my testimony now. And then I would continue going to, like, youth school stuff, seminary. And, you know, you have all kinds of experiences that strengthen your testimony and make you feel like, you know, that this thing is true.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:35] You know, you sing in a group of people. You sing a hymn that's an emotional hymn. You're going to get like a dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin response of some kind and feel that connection. And so if you're being told to interpret it a certain way, you're going to interpret it that way.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:53] And I remember a lot of just there was a disabled boy in our ward who like made the decision to get baptized. Even though I, I don't remember all the details, I'm not sure like how able to consent to baptism he was, but he was.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:08] And I can't even remember what his disabilities were, but I remember they were quite severe. And I remember it was like a big deal in our ward or stake that this boy had made the. He might have been, he might have been an adult man, but like young twenties if he was.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:24] But it was like a big deal that he had made the decision to get baptized. And like everyone got up and gave these like these talks that looking back I'm like, I feel like it's kind of just like co opting a person with a disability and make, you know, making, putting them on a spiritual pedestal because of that. And like, I just think if you're confronted with like the reality of like it's difficult to be a person living in this world with a disability, it's difficult to navigate certain things. Like that's going to invoke emotion in you generally. But then if you tie it in with religion and like it's so amazing that he's doing this and making this decision even, you know, I don't know, just things like that would really.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:09] It was almost like the first time in my life where like strong emotion could be so openly embraced. You know, it's like we're all weeping because this disabled boy has made the decision to get baptized. Even though I think he was scared of water or something that was a part of his. Oh his thing.

John Dehlin [01:39:26] And if you contrast that with the kind of the stoicness of British culture, it's got to be a pretty big contrast for a kid.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:33] Yeah, definitely does. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:40] So you were hooked.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:41] Yep, that's it.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:42] And you had all these positive, I feel like. Did you have positive associations? Because you've. I, I wonder if it was conscious. It probably wasn't. But like it seems like you've said your home heavy kind of dark kind of. Right. And then oftentimes you're in your, you're noticing your friends homes where there's more of a sense of warmth or they laugh or they emotion is more present.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:08] Like there's like happiness is more present.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:11] Okay. Or Happiness or whatever. And so I was just curious if you had had just sort of that association. Definitely. And also made it more appealing where it's like, well, that's opposite of what I experienced. So I'm gonna say that that's good. Opposite of what I experienced. Good.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:29] And obviously it was like such a coming of age time, like 16, 17, and it was so appealing, sort of taking on this new identity and being like, my past is behind, you know, the darkness. So confused.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:42] Feel that.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:42] And I'd had a lot of. For example, like, alcohol had been a scary thing in my home growing up. Like, it had caused a lot of situations that were very scary to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:50] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:50] And I had like this, I had weird feelings about alcohol even before I was Mormon, even though I was having these drinking experiences. And so it wasn't that hard to get me to believe that alcohol was evil. And, you know, you should not do that.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:02] That's such a good point.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:03] Because it had been such a big part of my family's trauma. So, yeah, I was like primed for it. And. And again, just this idea that I could recast everything in the light of just like, well, if people would just live like this, then, you know, things like what I experienced growing up wouldn't happen. And I don't even know necessarily how much I was thinking about my childhood because I think I was still pretty resistant to like, going there.

A Parent's Reaction to Their Child Joining the Church

Margi Dehlin [01:41:26] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:27] But I at least could recognize that my family was dysfunctional and this was a system that was claiming to promote, like, very functional, healthy, happy families. And that's what I saw. So it checked out, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:39] How appealing would that be?

Samantha Shelley [01:41:41] Yeah. And everyone was so nice to me and so warm and loving and it, it was genuine. You know, it's just sad that it had to be through the lens of Mormonism for me to feel that.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:53] I'm wondering, I'm trying to imagine being a secular parent, watching my kid become indoctrinated into a high demand religion or cult. On the one hand, especially if I had been separated or divorced from my partner, if I was worried about my kid's happiness, you know, let's just face it, there are worse things than joining Mormonism. There's becoming super depressed or suicidal or wanting to die, or being completely isolated or becoming addicted to alcohol or drugs or whatever, or having a teenage pregnancy at 15 or 16. Not that those things can't happen within Mormonism, but I can imagine as a secular parent being confused, afflicted, like, I'm putting my mom, my, myself in your mom.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] Or your dad's shoes. On the one hand, she's making these friends. She's meeting all these nice, clean, neat people who don't even swear. She's finding community. She's getting a sense of meaning and identity and purpose and spirituality. And she's behaving better on the one hand. And on the other hand, she's possibly joining a cult. And I'm wondering how it was for them.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:55] Well, I think because. Especially for my. I mean, my dad wasn't super involved in my life. He lived hours away and I don't know, his opinion wasn't, like, that relevant to my life at that point. But I think for my mom, because she knew my friend's family and they were so nice and, like, you know, they would chat to her and she knew them as very, like, nice, normal people. She didn't know the extent to which Mormonism was weird, I don't think. I mean, both my parents were definitely disturbed, but I think in their minds it was like, well, it's probably just a phase. And, like, yeah, they probably did have the mindset of, like, there are worse things she could be doing.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:30] She's not, you know, she's. It's not like the Jehovah's Witnesses or, like, something where, you know, I'm having to pay a bunch of money because I don't know when I started paying tithing, but if I did, they didn't know I was.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:43] So, yeah, probably in their mind, they're just like, well, whatever. I never really had parents that were trying to, like. That needed me to be any, like, specific sort of way. As long as I was generally, like, doing well in school, you know, had friends, like, they. They really only cared about the basics in life. They weren't the type of parents that were like, you need to believe the things we believe. Because I don't think either of them have particularly strong convictions about, like. Like, neither of them are like, like, massive ideologues, if that makes sense. They're just kind of, like, trying to do their own thing.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:13] And, you know, my mum likes drinking wine and going out with her friends, and my dad likes going on bike rides and drinking beer. And they're not. Neither of them are particularly like, existential people. My mom once told me that she never thinks about death or what's gonna happen after we die, or it's just like, not a thing that she is interested in thinking about. Not even from a place of being afraid to think about it. I just think her mind doesn't really go there. Wow. Yeah. So they were just kind of like, oh, it's weird, but whatever. She's always been weird. So fabulous.

John Dehlin [01:44:49] I mean, I don't want to dive into this now, but it. It. Nowadays, when I see so many people leaving religion, all I think about is what are they gaining and what are they losing? And if being a secular ex Mormon means enjoying a glass of wine, having some friends, hanging out, and if that means raising kids where you're not as worried about what they're doing, thus they become vulnerable to not just, well, other high demand religions or other philosophies, that could be deeply problematic. It makes me wonder whether we're creating a vacuum, whether leaving a high demand religion creates a vacuum that secularism hasn't figured out yet, how to fully fill, both for the individuals and their kids. But I don't want to derail your story, but I just want to flag that I'm having these thoughts as you talk about what happened when your parents raised you as secular people.

Samantha Shelley [01:45:44] Yeah, I mean, I. It's interesting that you. You feel that way because I feel like that's a little bit of a false dichotomy in my mind or like, I don't know, because most people don't join cults.

John Dehlin [01:45:54] I know.

Samantha Shelley [01:45:54] And I mean, sure, there's a vacuum, but.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] But a lot of people do. A lot of people do, but a

Samantha Shelley [01:46:02] lot of people don't. A lot of people don't join Mormonism. Like, I don't know anyone who is like me that joined Mormonism in the uk. Like, I don't know any of my friends who got like, pulled into a religion or a cult or anything like that. Maybe in America where the dom. If you live in Utah and the dominant culture is Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:17] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:17] And your parents don't raise you Mormon. But I feel like it's less about whether or not you're raised as a Mormon and more about, like, how do you communicate with your kids? How safe do your kids feel around you? How much do you see them and meet their needs? How much do you, like, encourage holistically healthy living? You know, how much do you emphasize all the things in life that make. That make life good and happy and joyful?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:40] You know, how much you, how much you support and value their own critical thinking skills, even when it comes up against you in parenting?

Samantha Shelley [01:46:49] Yeah, because the vacuum isn't the absence of religion. The vacuum is like the absence of connection to self and others and life itself.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:58] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:58] Put that in a TikTok.

John Dehlin [01:46:59] I love it.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:00] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:47:00] I'm making A note that's going in the TikTok.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:02] I knew you were.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:02] Exactly. Sometimes I do think this is a little bit more derailing. But. But like you, you have a lens, John, based on what you do, how you see things, and then because certain things are drawn to you and what you do, so you're positively reinforced. You have confirmation bias because you live in. According to your lens, you live in this sort of smaller bubble of like a larger. So it makes sense to me why you view that way, why you view it that way. And it's like this bubble as opposed to, like, there's also a really large. There's like a larger bubble of reality. And. Yeah, not in a way to be dismissive, like, in a way that I. It makes sense to me. You feel that because you're so immersed in this one little.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:47] And I feel like your question was kind of like, oh, if you don't raise your kids in a cult, they're going to be vulnerable to joining a cult. It's like, well, less than if they were raised in the cult. Like, what does that even mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:58] Let's hope that's not true.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:00] Like, you either raise them in one or, like, maybe someone else will get.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:02] I'm like, it's not inevitable.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:05] It's not an argument for staying in a cult, is it?

John Dehlin [01:48:08] No.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:10] Sorry if I diminish your argument. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:48:13] No, I love it. This is great. Thank you. This is good stuff. This is really good stuff. Do you ever. Do you ever feel like being on a podcast with Margi is, like, going to therapy?

Samantha Shelley [01:48:21] Yeah, Margi is a very good podcast host and just, you know, she sits so relaxed and it's so nice to have, like, a feminine voice in my ear. Not that you don't have a great podcast voice, because you do, but it's nice to switch it up.

Moving to BYU-Idaho and Culture Shock

Margi Dehlin [01:48:36] So take us maybe from byu, Idaho. What happened next for you?

Samantha Shelley [01:48:42] Yeah, so moved at 18 to Idaho, and I was there for three and a half years. Graduated, I did a communications degree. That's where I met Tana. Fun fact.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:54] Oh, how about that?

Samantha Shelley [01:48:55] In an advertising class. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] So was there a massive culture shock of going from. From the UK to freaking Rexburg, Idaho?

Samantha Shelley [01:49:06] Yeah, but it wasn't. It wasn't unpleasant because I was so indoctrinated into Mormonism and had sort of become disenchanted with British culture in certain ways. So I don't know, it was just kind of like new and exciting. And my ego loved being the British girl that everyone was excited to talk to that was a big piece of why I think I loved the By Idaho experience. I generally loved the BYU Idaho experience because, you know, I've liked, always liked school. It was really fun for me having roommates because growing up an only child. Yes. It was like just not being alone because I had roommates was so nice. Even though I lived with my mum. You know, it's tense being raised by a single mother as a teenage girl and there was a lot of.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:55] I.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:56] There was. We haven't really covered it and we don't need to. But there were a lot of traumatic experiences I had from being raised by a single mother as a teenage girl just because I think the mother daughter dynamic can be so tense anyway.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:09] And then it's like a single mother only it's just so intense. It was so intense. It was so rough. But she did her best anyway. So being at BYU Idaho was nice because I always had roommates who for the most part I got along well with.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:24] Yeah, everyone was really nice to me. It was really easy. Like school was really easy there because I was used to doing A levels in England so that was nice. Although I did like completely flunk my first semester. I got like a 2.8 GPA because I wasn't used to having to do homework as like a. That's the whole thing.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:43] But, you know, found my groove with, with American schooling and yeah, I was just completely indoctrinated the whole time. So it was a positive experience because. And I had a lot of fun and you know, there is something kind of charming about having like three and a half years of sober university fun.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:02] Where you know, you have to get creative about how you spend time. Yeah. And it was, it was very novel the whole time being in America. Like it was just fun for me to be in America even if it was Rexburg, Idaho. Like people always be like, oh, why'd you go to Rexburg, Idaho? And it's like, well, if you grew up in Essex, England, Rexburg Idaho is exotic and you know, it doesn't snow in England and it would snow all year and you know, it doesn't get hot in the summer in England and it's hot here and we can go swim in the rivers. So there was enough like novelty to being in America generally that made it, that made it a good time.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:40] That makes sense. Like that adventure piece and then hitting you in your young adult like just as you're wanting to probably.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:49] Be free, giving you kind of. And it, I'm feeling from you oftentimes, John, you Talk about religion or Mormonism plugging holes. Like, the holes oftentimes that we kind of come with. And I'm. I'm hearing a little bit of that with you, too. It's like you belonging finely. You have community finally. You have this sense of identity. Like, this is you actually feeling, in a way, filled in a way that you hadn't been.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:15] And even though as a teenager I had had really close female friendships that were very fulfilling, it's like having the other piece of, like, kind of an overarching ideology and like, this is what the world is, and this is what you need to. You know, that was very comforting, I think. Just, just generally, the rules of Mormonism were comforting to me. Safety makes sense. Yeah. I was always. Yeah, safety. Like, rules in school were, like, not bad. I didn't feel constrained by them because it's like, it was much worse for me to be at home where the rules weren't clear and anything could happen for any reason at any time. You know, that's much scarier than just, like, stick to these rules and this will be what happens.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:58] Absolutely. That makes so much sense to me. The appeal.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] Some say that BYU Idaho Rexburg is like, the most extreme example of Mormon culture.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:11] Modest. You know, the type of thing where if a girl goes into the BYU Idaho library with, like, skinny jeans on or, you know, yoga pants, she'll receive a note from somebody saying, your clothing. Yeah, it offends me or makes me have dirty thoughts, or you can't go to the testing center, or you might get turned away if you're, like, showing your shoulders. So, like, the, the. Or even the curfews in the dorms. So talk about to what extent the severity or the stringentness of the, of the. The rules and the cultural rules felt stifling or felt liberating or something else.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:51] At BYU schools, you. You just kind of naturally gravitate towards people that have the same sort of approach to the rules as you. And there's a whole spectrum there. So I was someone that generally wanted to follow the rules. You know, I wanted to keep curfew. I wanted to keep the dress code, but not keep the dress code so hard that I wouldn't wear skinny jeans or, you know, I wanted to keep all of the main ones, but, you know, I wasn't too invested in the idea that God really cares if I, you know, wear flip flops on campus. I mean, I wouldn't do it because it wasn't worth getting in trouble, you know, but I didn't I guess what I'm trying to say is I had, like, probably like a B plus approach to keeping the rules.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:30] You know, Like, I was generally, you know, faithful and obedient, but I also didn't take them on. Like, some people would just take them on to such an extreme. Although, to be fair, I think that my freshman year was my most extreme. And I came from England thinking, oh, well, all these people have been Mormon their whole lives. They're going to be so much better than me.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:51] When I. But I actually got to byu, Idaho, and I was like, oh, people are kind of relaxed about things that I didn't expect they'd be relaxed about. Like, they don't fast for 24 hours. They just, like, don't eat breakfast. Or like, things like that that I had believed were so concrete because that's the family that sort of brought me into Mormonism. That's what they did.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:08] I saw how much some people were Mormon because just kind of as a. Because they've been raised in it rather than being obsessed with it the way that I was. But you kind of, like, find your people, you know, and that would be different at different times. And I definitely did have, like. I remember my freshman year, I wrote. I wrote a note to my roommate. She would come home maybe like 15, 20 minutes after curfew. She was with her boyfriend. And I wrote her a note like, I know that God will bless you more if you keep curfew. You know, it's like passive aggressive nonsense.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:38] But I think the older, you know, as I went through school, I got. I got less like that and a bit more relaxed about it and had more of an approach, because I never really saw God as, like, that authoritarian or the way that Mormonism sometimes wants you to see God. Because I hadn't grown up in the culture like that. That, like, idea of God never really resonated with me. I was like, well, he's kind of chill.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:02] So, yeah, I don't know, like, in terms of, you know, if someone had written me a note about Sam. I remember one time me and my friend were performing at this talent show on campus, and we're both wearing skinny jeans, which weren't banned, but skinny jeans were kind of like a hot topic at the time.

John Dehlin [01:56:14] But flip flops were banned.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:16] Flip flops are banned. Yeah. Which that isn't to do with, like, modesty. That's just like a stupid professionalism rule that they have. But, yeah, me and my friend were wearing skinny jeans to perform in this show. And this, like, he was an usher, I think he was just, like, a volunteer helping put on. Just one. Other people helping to organize the event. Not like the person putting on the event, but just like a student. Like an older student that was, like, helping with getting people into their seats. He was like, you guys can't go on stage wearing those skinny jeans. That's too immodest or something like that.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:49] And I really pushed back on him. Like, I definitely became more submissive as a Mormon woman, but not that much. Like, if someone was, like, you know, trying to overstep their power, I would definitely push back. So when this guy was telling us we couldn't, I was like, that's. You know, I just, like, argued back with him, and it was, like, not an option in my mind that we were gonna not perform or change because of, you know, this guy's opinion. But I think typically in, like, the patriarchal culture, there's a. There probably were a lot of girls who. If a male student, older return missionary, probably had said that to them, they would have coward and, like, gone and changed or, you know, But I was just like, absolutely not.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:30] Like, you know, it wasn't that indoctrinated. So, yeah, there would be things, but, like, I feel like I generally kept a sort of, like, strong sense of self about it. You know, it's like everyone just interprets. With Mormonism in general, everyone just interprets the rules according to their own, like, perception of how authoritarian God is.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:54] So it didn't really bother me too much.

Marriage, Temple Wedding, and Family Exclusion

Margi Dehlin [01:57:57] So after. So you graduated in communications, do you

John Dehlin [01:58:01] want to talk about what you and Tanner did while you were there?

Samantha Shelley [01:58:04] I mean, we did some. We made some videos that were, like, comedy. We did some.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] Were you in the newspaper or, like, TV production? Like, did you have a job there that was interesting in terms of getting you into social media or.

Samantha Shelley [01:58:19] I worked for the ad agency Soapbox, which was a really positive experience. Experience for me and I think helped me a lot with my copywriting career. So, yeah, that was positive. I also felt like the people in the communications degree. There's a stereotype, but tended to be a little bit more chill and more kind of people who could go work in New York and people wouldn't be like, what a weirdo. Religious zealot. You know, they were generally people who, like, dressed a bit more stylishly, were a bit more, I don't know, charismatic in the ways of the world. I don't know how you describe it, but I did feel like communications was a good degree.

Samantha Shelley [01:58:52] There would be Some certain degrees that would draw certain types, you know, like a lot of women would be drawn to like the marriage and family degree who maybe were more like grew up in big families, were parentified at a young age, looked after this, you know, different degrees would attract different people and I feel like communications was a good one to be in. It was, it felt like less.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:12] It felt like kind of removed from the rest of the school in terms of like it didn't feel quite so like patriarchal. It just felt more fun and creative and Yeah, I guess like just generally I find that people in Mormonism who are more creative types like aren't so sticklers for like hard rule following. Not that I was like a rebel, but you know, I have to ask

John Dehlin [01:59:39] how you navigated dating culture and kind of the honor code and standards and.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:44] I thrived, John thrived. It was fun. It was. I didn't like, I didn't date in England before I moved to BYU Idaho. Really at all? Basically not at all. So it was really the first time in my life that boys had been interested in me.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:59] Yeah, I felt like I was a hot commodity. You know, being like from England. People were just interested in me. I would have a lot of boys become like quickly disillusioned. Like a lot of boys would get crushes on me and then I think I was like maybe a bit too strong willed for them or just you know, they were just had been conditioned to want a certain type of woman who's maybe more submissive and I don't know. So that would happen a lot where they would be so interested in me and that. But then that's also kind of just like young dating culture. So yeah, I had a lot of different boyfriends.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:28] I had a boyfriend who I sort of semi waited for on a mission who was like my first love. That was a traumatic experience. Having my first boyfriend. Well, he was my second boyfriend, but my first love at BYU Idaho I think we dated for like 10 months or something before his mission and then he went on a mission and I was like I'll wait for you.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:51] But it was, it was so traumatic having like love taken away because someone had to go on a mission. And then like slowly throughout his mission he got more and more like removed, robotic. And then I got, I had an anxious attachment style to the max, you know, was spiraling more and more, becoming more manic in my emails. And so eventually we, it's sort of, we did see each other after his mission but it had kind of like gone awire before then.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:19] Yeah. That's interesting to look back on because that prompted me to go see a byu, Idaho therapist. I'm just stream of consciousness. I've given up on stream.

John Dehlin [02:01:27] You love it.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:28] But that prompted me to go to a therapist when my boyfriend had been on a mission for about five months and I was really suffering with, like, depression and anxiety. And it was just because it's like for the first time in my life, I'd experienced that this, what felt like a complete feeling of, like, love and, you know, just being so loved, you know, and your first love generally is huge. And then to have it just taken away, but then it was like such a mind fuck because it's like being taken away by the thing that you believe in the most and that.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:55] So it's so tough. And then you obviously feel guilty disturbing your missionary in any way. Anyway, I went to a BYU therapist for a little bit and he recommended this book attached. And I think of this. This therapy session as like kind of a.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:11] You have like, these pivotal points along your healing journey. And even though I was a long way away from getting to any kind of like, healed, healthy place, him recommending that book was very helpful for me because it meant as a Mormon, I like, got kind of a sense of like, oh, I have an anxious attachment style and that's why I act like this. And it, it was like, you know, a first smidgen of like, empowerment, like starting to understand that.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:35] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:36] So, brother Craig, good therapist.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:38] That's brilliant. And even I rem. I find reading that book, what was valuable was to actually see, like to come to know a secure attachment style.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:49] Yeah. It's like, oh, didn't even think about that.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:52] That's what that looks like. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:55] If you haven't experienced.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:56] Experienced or been shown. Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:59] But I also remember in that I think he may have asked me about my parents, and I think that was. I think I remember telling him, like, yeah, my childhood was fine, or, like, I don't remember, like, to what degree I was lying to myself or. Or what. But like, I remember him trying to dig and me just being like, no,

Margi Dehlin [02:03:16] yeah, it's not right.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:17] And then I also remember I went. I didn't have much therapy at byu, just a couple of sessions, but I went to see him right before I graduated, just as a kind of, you know, goodbye thing or just do kind of like a mental health check in before I lose access to this free therapy. And I remember he told me that he was really shocked because I was like a different person than he had seen like three years ago because he said when I. I think I was like an early sophomore when I first saw him, and then I saw him at the end of being a senior, he said I, like, couldn't make eye contact at all, which I don't remember, but completely checks out with, like, my life experiences.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:54] Like, so many of my roommates, especially in my early years at BYU Idaho would tell me that when we first moved in together, they just thought I hated them. And I think it's because I just didn't have the social skills to like, make eye contact or like, I didn't know how to be warm. And English culture doesn't demand as much warmth, so you can still get by kind of being maybe more like I was. But Americans and like, especially Mormon women are very much primed to need, like a very friendly upfront. Like, we're right here with you. Right. And like to. So validating instantly.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:22] That's so.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:23] Whereas in England, we're a bit more, you know, so you got to earn. Earn friendship. It's not just like.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:29] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:30] Yeah. Anyway, so that was interesting just thinking that there, there were ways I obviously grew at a Mormon university because I, I do think, like, who I was at 18 when I went there was very different from. Not very different. But if I couldn't make eye contact at 18, 19, and could by 21, I mean, that's a pretty.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:51] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:52] Significant shift.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:53] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:04:54] Sure.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:54] There was other things.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:55] Yeah. Did.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] Did you ever get put on the worthiness wheel, Whether through honor code stuff or bishop interactions or like, you know, with dating?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:04] Yeah, I'm doing something wrong. No, I was pretty good.

John Dehlin [02:05:07] You never had to deal with that Shame. Mormon shame.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:10] I mean, I had to deal with Mormon shame, but not to the degree of like, getting in trouble.

John Dehlin [02:05:15] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:16] Okay. Have to ask that. I mean, it's Mormon stories.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:19] Have to ask.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:21] Yeah. So what happened after take us maybe after BYU Idaho?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:27] What.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:28] Where'd you go? What happened?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:29] So I moved to Provo. And what was I doing there? Oh, I was doing an internship at some marketing firm, like writing SEO blog posts. And it was like a minimum wage internship, you know.

John Dehlin [02:05:45] Oh. Oh, my gosh. I just realized I had to ask. Did you feel like a failure that you didn't get married by the time you left BYU Idaho? Because I imagine a lot of your friends got married or.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:54] No, I. Yeah, I mean, I had a number of friends who got married. But no, I didn't feel like a failure because I was from England as well. I'm like, I'm still 21.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:04] Actually, I might have been 20 when I graduated. I think I was 21.

John Dehlin [02:06:08] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:08] Yeah. I had. And I consistently had boyfriends throughout byu, Idaho, and I think when I graduated, I had a boyfriend. And then we, like, broke up shortly after. But I don't know. It's not. I didn't feel like I was chopped liver by any means. I was like, people are still interested in me. So. Yeah, I think, if anything, I was, like, kind of relieved because I'm like, I do not want to have to, like, have people back home watch me get married while at university. Like, that's so cringe.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:35] So.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:36] No, not really. Although when I joined by, when I went to byu, Idaho. Yeah. I probably thought I would have been married by the end of it, just because that's like.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:44] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:44] And also when you're 18, 21 sounds so old. But then when you actually get there, it's not at all.

John Dehlin [02:06:50] Sorry to interrupt. I just had.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:53] Ask that.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] So Provo.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:56] So, yeah, I moved to Provo, was doing an internship at this one place and then. And, you know, dating. I had another boyfriend during that time period, went to visit his family in Canada. They were really nice. I got into quite serious relationships with a lot of boys throughout my time in Mormonism. Then I started doing my internship with Tanner at Deseret Book, and, you know, was going through the beginnings of a faith crisis prompted by Tanner being in a fully fledged faith crisis. But it wasn't, you know, it hadn't. Hadn't reached, like, peak velocity yet. It was just like some things were starting to shift in my mind of, like, what's the deal with all of this?

John Dehlin [02:07:40] You know, was it weird working at Ezra Book? Was it cool?

Samantha Shelley [02:07:42] And that was a. It's generally not like, faith promoting, I think, to work at a place.

John Dehlin [02:07:46] Do you want to talk about that at all?

Samantha Shelley [02:07:48] I don't remember too much, but it's just you really see how the church runs as a business. And I remembered, like, we had to come and work on a Sunday during general Conference because we had to be making tweets. And I remember thinking, well, that's so stupid that we would need to do that on a Sunday because, like, the church itself has an account that is being run that is live tweeting General Conference. So the reason that we are tweeting on a Sunday is because we want to make money and we want to boost our social accounts so that we, Deseret Book can make money.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:16] And I just thought that was a bit Gross. Because I was, you know, a rule follower, and I was like, we got to keep the Sabbath day holy. And I don't think because it's church business, you've got a free pass to make people work on Sunday when it's not necessary. The church is still doing that work. There's no need for Deseret book to be making the same tweets just so that they get, like, the social engagement, you know. So I think little things like that.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:38] And again, just, like, seeing how much it's a business, it's not like a holy workplace like you might expect. And obviously, being Mormon, converting to Mormonism in England, it's easy for English members to have this perception of, like, what Salt Lake is like or, you know, what church HQ is like. And it's just not like that. You know, it's just businessy. But so anyway. But then I got this job, like a big girl job at USU doing copywriting for their student marketing communications department.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:06] So I moved to Logan, which is where I met my ex husband, and we got married in the temple. Logan Temple. Did you guys get married in the Lego temple?

John Dehlin [02:09:18] D.C. we were.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:19] D.C. oh, okay.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] Yeah. Margi's family's from D.C. originally, so when I. My grandma. My grandma probably got sealed in the Logan Temple and was a temple worker there. So we have connections to Cash Valley.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:34] Anyway, yeah, temple marriage was kind of going through my faith crisis when I got married, but still, like, generally believed in the church. I just had a lot of questions about things, and it kind of felt like the modern church was in apostasy. And, you know, it was kind of. I was in a bit of a Denver snuffer phase. So that was all. Yeah. Kind of wild timing looking back on, like, how I just held all of that, like, the faith crisis and, like, getting engaged.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:06] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:06] But, like.

John Dehlin [02:10:07] So when you got married in the temple, you were. Were not solid in the church, mentally?

Samantha Shelley [02:10:13] Well, I kind of thought that maybe Thomas. I kind of felt like the modern church was a little bit in apostasy, but I still felt like, in general, the church was, like, the right thing. I still. The way I justified it was I was kind of like. I don't know if Thomas S. Monson is like a legit prophet, but, like, I support him in, like, trying to be that, you know, so it was like I. I sustain the brethren. This is my mental gymnastics because, like, I. I want them to be doing the will of God. I just. I'm not sure because it kind of seems a bit sketchy.

John Dehlin [02:10:45] Did you have to veil your face and.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] And covenant with Connor. Is he covenants with God. The feminists did the temple experience.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:54] I would like red flags for you at all.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:57] Do you know, I don't know if I really picked up on the sexism that much. I actually, I did a bit. It did. I honestly don't remember. But I was very disturbed by the endowment. I did not. I didn't mind the ceiling too much, although I did not like the outfits. Like, they raised a bit of an alarm bell because how could they not.

John Dehlin [02:11:17] The veil and the.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:17] But the endowment was all very disturbing and like, I. So, you know, I wanted to be okay with it and stuff. But it's like, you know, normally when people get their endowments, they've got like their whole Mormon family around them. And most people describe feeling uncomfortable, but it's like, well, everyone here is okay with it. But, you know, I didn't have all of that background, so I think it was like there was more room for me to question maybe than there might be if I'd grown up in it and I'd already been like learning a lot of sketchy stuff generally about the church. But it's

Samantha Shelley [02:11:48] also like, when you're going through a faith crisis, there's kind of this weird dichotomy of like, your faith is waning, but then you're also more zealous than you've ever been and you like almost think it's more true than it's ever been because you're doubling down. So it's, you know, that weird line. But yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:04] Did your family come to the wedding and were they excluded from the temple and what was all that?

Samantha Shelley [02:12:08] My parents came and yeah, obviously couldn't go in the temple.

John Dehlin [02:12:11] Was that a thing or.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:12] Yeah, it was a bit of a thing, but it just. It was what it was. We did like a ring ceremony with like my ex's bishop at this barn where we had our reception. We tried to do like a cute, like non cultural hall wedding to make it feel not as. Was weird.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:30] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:30] Which was fine. But yeah, it was weird. Like my wedding was so just all the people my husband had ever known and met and it was like. And I was there and my parents were there and like some friends, obviously, but it is.

John Dehlin [02:12:46] But they couldn't go in.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:48] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:49] So in the actual temple wedding ceremony, did you have any support there? I mean, Connor, would you have your own people?

Samantha Shelley [02:12:58] Well, Tanner was my witness and then my husband's dad, I think, was the other witness. And then I had like, my. One of my woman friends was married, or maybe it was two. I think I had two friends.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:13] I had some.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:14] I had a couple of friends there, basically. But did I feel majorly supported? No, I wouldn't say so. Like, it was weird. But again, it's. It's so. It's so surreal to look back on and be like, that was my wedding day. Like, and I just. That's how it was. And I just kind of was sort of fine with it. Like. Like, it sort of was, like, not ideal. But it's not like I was thinking in my head, like, I'm devastated. What is going on. It was just kind of like, well, this is how it is, you know? Whereas, like, now, when I imagine, like, what it would mean to me to, like, have that kind of union with someone and like, what that day would mean to me, it's just a completely different thing.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:48] Yeah, it's like, it was so not sacred in a way. Like, I feel like now if I had a wedding with my partner, who I've been with for, like, five years, it would be so sacred and special and meaningful for. Yeah, but Mormon weddings are so not that. But then you're supposed to believe they're, like, the most sacred thing of anything on earth, but it's like you don't know the person that well and. Yeah, it's wild. It's. It's really. It's like I feel like I was a child bride even though I was 22. It's like I didn't know anything.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:16] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:18] And. And when you. And. And you don't talk about anything you don't want to talk about, obviously. But, like, when you and Connor got married, was there an agreement about how Mormon you were going to be as a couple and what your dreams were as a couple and how your Mormon dream was going to play out as you got married in the temple?

Samantha Shelley [02:14:34] I mean, I think we both just assumed, you know, we'd be just faithful Mormons and we'd. We'd do all the things. And I think we both. I think we were both pretty faithful, but we were the kind of Mormons that had senses of humor is like, the way I would describe it, you know, like, we weren't looking to be, like. Like the most. We weren't looking to have, like, 10 kids and be, you know, that. It's like we both kind of wanted, like, somewhat modern lives. Like, I wanted to have a career. We did not want to have kids, like, right away or anything like that. But that all unraveled really quick because about a month into my marriage, I was like, this. This religion is.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:11] Is.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:14] And we'd been so. I think I only went I. To the temple, like, maybe four times total, maybe five. But every time, it was, like, deeply uncomfortable. Yeah. And I sort of figured out, okay, that none of this is true.

John Dehlin [02:15:29] And what happened? How did you get there? How did you.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:31] I mean, it'd been on it. It'd been in the works since Deseret book, you know, just learning. Me and Tanner had been learning a bunch, reading a bunch. I was reading fair Mormon stuff from, you know, journaler discourses, all the stuff that makes sense. People lose their faith and just trying so hard to make it all work. And it was all very terrifying. I feel like I became, like, very close to being, like, genuinely unhinged mentally. Like, I really started to fear, like, demons and kind of a return of stuff from childhood of just, like, at night, everything would just feel so. So scared of seeing a demon or even I was so scared of, like, seeing demons, Jesus, or seeing an angel or seeing anything.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:10] You know, it just all was so fragile and tense and volatile and, like, just felt like anything could happen in, like, the scariest way. And I so. And, like, straddling that thing of like, I'm trying so hard to believe in this religion and make it work. But then I also feel so much guilt because I have so much doubt, and I'm. But then I also know that I'm doing everything I can. So, like, should I be feeling that guilt? You know, it's just, like, a mess.

Beginning of Faith Crisis and Transition

John Dehlin [02:16:32] It's almost like the church filled those holes temporarily.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:37] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:38] But they weren't real fixes that would solve some of those problems long term. They were just temporary fixes. Is that right?

Samantha Shelley [02:16:46] You're absolutely right. But. But at this point, it's like I. I lived in, like, relative safety compared to, like, my upbringing for, like, a good amount of time now. So there was sort of, like, an amount of, like, artificial healing that had taken place in that. Like, I wasn't, like, I wasn't a kid. Like, I did feel.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:04] So I had. I don't know how to describe it. Like, I had a sort of sense of confidence, but then I also didn't because I was so psychologically dependent on this religion and was so terrified and, like, going through the process of, like, you know, like the final weeks of, like, when you're down to the wire and you're like, can this be true? That was just, like, the most terrifying, probably the most terrified. I've ever felt. Yeah, that's debatable. At least on par with, like, the most traumatic experience my childhood. Just that feeling of, like, without this, you're just like a ship without a sail and you don't know what you're going to do.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:37] And I kind of think it was nice that I was married because that was like a weird safety net because we were, you know, still in love. We just got married. And even though the faith stuff, the faith crisis stuff was really hard on both of us, like, individually.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:00] And I think in the. There was, like, some resentment from my husband because I had kind of, like, led the effort for us to, like, lead the church, even though he also realized, like, this isn't true, but it was like he realized because I kind of like, forced him along, you know, like, he probably would have stayed in the church had he married, like, a good Mormon woman.

John Dehlin [02:18:17] His parents must have really resented you and blaming you for being the reason why he lost his.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:23] Definitely, yeah. It was definitely all my fault, in their mind. And that was sad because I had a good relationship with them prior to that. Like, we really got along well and

Margi Dehlin [02:18:30] I, like, so painful.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:32] And then I was just instantly the enemy. And obviously, when you're going through a faith crisis as well, you don't. I still didn't have any tools for, like, emotional processing or anything. I was still, like, just a young, stupid kid. So, like, you know, when I'm having these conversations with, like, 50 adults in their 50s who are telling me, you know, you're led by Satan or whatever, like, I don't know what to do other than just be like, you guys are pretty brainwashed. And like, obviously now I would never engage in that conversation in that way because I would know it wasn't effective. But, like, I didn't know that.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:59] I was just, like, freaking out and like, yeah. Trying to be heard. So desperately to be heard. Like, you don't know what we've been going through. Like, this is not, you know, because people have their ideas about what a faith crisis is, and the reality of what it is is completely different. And if people understood what it was actually like, they would have a lot more empathy. But that empathy would also be fatal to their own testimony potentially. So that's the whole thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:21] Seeing this, seeing, like, the faith transition for you with your context of. Just to tie it back to the theme of self healing and kind of coping. We mentioned joining the church as kind of part of coping. Right. And bringing you things that, you know, you had needs that weren't met. Around.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:43] So if you look at that and you look at, you know, as it starts, you start transitioning and it's. You're literally taking away a coping something that. Which, you know, when we look at psychology and in therapy, anytime you remove a major source of coping, you really have to be very mindful of bringing in other. Right. Coping. And this is something I think we do in adult life is sometimes we realize, oh, I. I actually have coping that's not healthy. I have coping that I. That brought me here. It's survival coping. We're going to love it, we're going to be grateful for it. And it's not really honoring.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:26] So I want to upgrade it. I want to do something else. Right. But if I, if I like, connect to the trauma that you're describing, the pain you felt as this thing was being, you know, it wasn't what you see.

Samantha Shelley [02:20:39] It quadrupled my existing pain because it's like it's sold me this false sense. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:44] That it existed.

Samantha Shelley [02:20:45] And also Mormonism was like this, you know, such a. It was like a. Well, overall, it's like a. It's a pseudo healing. It's not like real healing because it's like you've just. You've just become psychologically dependent on this organization which now claims to, like, heal you. And, you know, that's not actual healing.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:04] And it like gives you. Don't you think a bunch of things that. To focus on and do that are. So. It's so much. You don't have room for processing. You don't have room actually to like, oh, go deep or reflect or. There is too much to be done. There's too much required of you as well. So it's like you're placed in this world. But I'm just noticing for you, like, that safety. Well, the church is what brought a semblance of safety to your life and stability. Right. In a way. In a way.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:40] So it's like it kind of filled the holes, but like John said, it didn't. But I'm just saying I wonder as it was, you went through the transition. To me, it makes sense that it like hit you in a very visceral, foundational place that unearthed all these fears again, all these things. Right. Because it almost. It's like in the unplugging, you're like, well, now I'm just back where I was. It like takes you back to almost

Samantha Shelley [02:22:03] worse than I was before because it's like you've. Because I. Because my brain has been sold the idea for four years. Or five years that, like, I can just be fixed by having this thing. And so now that dream has been taken. Do you know? I mean, it's like, almost worse to be sold a dream that everything can be okay and then have that taken away.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:25] That's right.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:26] But it is all kind of complex because at the same time that I'm losing my faith, I'm in this marriage, which I am happy to be in. Like, I'm not sitting here thinking, like, oh, I wish I hadn't got married because the church isn't true.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:38] Like, you weren't alone.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:39] Yeah, exactly. So it was like, me and my ex husband, like, we were in it together, you know, so it, like, sucked. And I. It had all the grief of, like, losing faith, but it wasn't like being like, you know, the loneliness of being a child because it's like, well, this person loves me. And so I almost. I really kind of believe that the psyche just, like, reveals whatever you're ready to see at every point. And I kind of.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:10] I mean, I'm hesitant to make any blanket statements, but I kind of feel like we can just trust our psyche to work things out. Even if for some people, that means being, like, trapped in bad situations for decades. Because, like, that's how long it takes their psyche to realize, like, hang on this. This shouldn't be like this, and I can't take this anymore. Like, and. And some people maybe never.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:31] Like, there's no guarantee that you arrive at a healthy point with that. But I do think our psyche is always kind of, like, working for us in a weird way. And I also wonder how much. I think it's interesting that my faith crumbled around the time I just got married in the temple, because temple marriage and Mormonism is held up as, like, the thing. And it's almost like I needed to experience, like, the peak thing that they sell you as, like, the best thing in the world and then be kind of staring down the barrel of, like, okay, endure to the end now. I mean, you can have kids, but it's like, I've never been particularly, like, jazzed about the idea of having kids, so that wasn't like, an appealing, like, oh, next step.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:07] Such a good point.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:07] So it was like, what do I have to look forward to now? Like, I'm just like, I'm in this marriage, and I like my husband, but, you know, I. I was like, joining a Mormon family ward or whatever the world is that you go to, and you're like, yeah. And I was just like, I don't really connect with these people. And like, it's my husband's world that he's from and he vibes with it so much. But there's all these ways that, you know, at BYU Idaho it's different because, like, we were all students and I'm just like the British student and people treated me like that and it was just all kind of like, fun and.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:36] But then it's like Mormons are so primed to. Even at like 22, like, we were so young, you're suddenly being put into these very adult roles, into like a MA in a married ward, which is like, very different from. From the BYU Idaho experience, which was very fun. And like, we're all in this together, we're all in this coming of age period of life. You know, we've all got new boyfriends, we've all got, like new classes. You know, it was. It's just like not the same experience. And like, BYU Idaho was fun not because of the Mormonism, but because of just like, the stuff around it that I think is like, kind of inherent in like a college experience kind of time of life.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:10] Yeah. But then, yeah, as I said, staring down the barrel of just being in a married Mormon ward and having to like, make friends with all these people, that to me felt so, like, fake or it just all felt so artificial to me by this point.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:24] And I think, yeah, I don't know, maybe I was. I was probably seeing a lot more at 21 than I would have seen at 17, you know, in terms of like. And also having got to know, like, American social rules more, you get more of a sense of, like, what's fake as opposed to like, when you first move to a country at 17, you don't know. So you just take everything on as genuine. But by that point I was just realizing, like, it's like, it's hard to connect with these people because it's not.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:52] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:52] It doesn't feel like we're allowed to talk about anything real. And also like, yeah, I don't know. So it was. Yeah, I. I lost my faith. But then I did feel kind of held in this marriage and I. I had this feeling of like, well, I. Even at that point, even when I was so depressed and nihilistic and, you know, suicide wasn't outside of the question. It was like, well, at least I met my husband through this whole process and I had a good time along the way because for most of my Mormon experience, I did have a good time. Like, people will always comment on our YouTube videos and be like, sorry you didn't have a good time in the church, but some of us, blah, blah, blah.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:27] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:27] You know, to try and discredit us leaving. But it's like that wasn't my experience. I had a good time relative to what I came from. There was good that it brought me. Like, my psyche sought out what it needed.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:37] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:38] And it got what it needed. And then it's like, I don't think my psyche was particularly drawn to the idea of being in an endure to the end situation.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:46] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:47] You know, there's not really a lot that.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:50] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:50] It's like I wasn't primed for this Mormon life the way that other people who grew up in it were.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:56] So I always had this idea that, you know, I'd be like, you know, I'd have a career and I'd. Even when I had kids, I'd have a career.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:02] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:03] But then I think just like, kind of confronting the reality of, like, being in a married ward and, you know, just all of it, it's. It kind of all hit me at the same time. So it's like I'm learning all this stuff about the church and realizing that this church is not. The claims are not true. And it's not even a. I don't even think it's necessarily like a good. I don't think there's much good in it. Like, I think the good that's in it is. Can be found anywhere. Like that was. It was just all came at once.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:30] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:30] So I don't remember where we.

John Dehlin [02:27:31] Oh, that's great. So really quickly. We don't really dig into this part traditionally when Margi and I work together, but I do want to get at least for. For kind of a summary video. Just like, what. What were 5 to 10 of the biggest intellectual issues that were instrumental to you being able to intellectually deconstruct the church? Just. You could just list them without going into depth. But what were the ones that hit you the hardest? Was it CBS letter stuff? You know, what were they?

Intellectual Reasons for Leaving Mormonism

Samantha Shelley [02:28:00] Things that hit me the hardest when leaving the church. Initially, it was a lot of things around

John Dehlin [02:28:06] the.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:07] The wealth of the church and the way that it choose to use its wealth, like City Creek Mall, was very disturbing to me. Just the lavishness of all the temples and like, learning how much a chandelier in the temple costs relative to, like, how much. How many people in Africa that could feed, you know, things like that. That's because it just didn't align with what Jesus taught about money and wealth.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:29] And I also started learning about how tithing was originally not, you know, it wasn't supposed to just be this like thing that happened forever where we all give 10% of our income to the church. It was supposed to be like once the church has enough money to kind of like keep itself going, which it absolutely does. You know, it's like multi billion dollar investment firm at this point.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:49] It, you know, tithing wasn't supposed to be like the way that it is treated now. Massive one was polygamy and specifically realizing like reading the reading more and like really getting a sense of like what it means for a 14 year old girl to be told to marry a middle aged man and her being told that the salvation of her family depended on it.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:15] Yeah, I mean like realizing that. I mean I think I had like a flimsy awareness of polygamy, but I wasn't really aware of how young they were, how coercive it was that Joseph Smith didn't even have the ceiling power. Not the, didn't even claim to have had the ceiling power when he was found with Fanny Augur in the barn.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:38] He was like not even sealed to Emma at that point. Yeah, polygamy was a massive one. Black people in the priesthood, I just couldn't think of a justification for it. I didn't buy the nonsense of, I think previously I'd been told like the world wasn't ready.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:57] If the church had accepted black people and given them the priesthood then they wouldn't have been accepted as a church because everyone was so racist at the time. So we had to wait for the world to get less racist. And I was like, that's bullshit. Like if this is supposed to be God's church then he should be leading the way on not being racist. And what he's so scared of.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:14] It doesn't seem like he's scared of the Mormons being persecuted. He's fine with them being persecuted so they can marriage teenage girls. But like letting black people people have the priesthood, that's too far. That didn't make any sense to me. There was just like no logical justification for black people not having the priesthood.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:28] And then just generally like a big part of it was just realizing the psychology of Mormonism and like the mind control and how much, you know, how much thought terminating cliches are used and how if you tried to like bring up anything of substance in a class like Sunday school, there would be no space for it and you would feel the judgment of people and just realizing how much like, oh, this church prioritizes like, blind submission to just, like, what these old men say and, like. And having those experiences of, like, I have honest questions and I am a good person who, like, wants to follow these rules and wants, you know, I'm not coming from a place of negativity here.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:08] I'm coming from a place of absolute faithfulness. And, like, you are treating me asking these questions with, like, such judgment and dismissiveness. Like, all of that, it just. It just. It kind of came into focus pretty quickly, like, within the span of a few months of, like, this is. This is a cult.

John Dehlin [02:31:24] What about Book of Mormon? Was that part of it for you? An important part or not a super important.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:30] Yeah. And also realizing that the Book of Mormon is completely ahistorical. The anachronisms. Oh, the Book of Abraham is a big one as well. It's like, we literally have the papyri that he claimed he translated from. We've since got the Rosetta Stone. We can translate them. We know that it's nothing to do with them. He also translated the Kinderhook plates. And that was completely bullshit. Like, every time we have, like, the source material for, like, what he translated, it turns out to be complete bullshit. But we're supposed to believe that, like, this book is the one that, like, well, it's still fine. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:02] You didn't mention women and the role of women and patriarchy.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:05] Do you know what? I was a big sexist, John. Like, it didn't really bother me that much while I was in the church stuff with women. I wonder if it's just because, like. Because I made the choice to join Mormonism and was never, like, corralled by men. It's like I.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:22] It's like, I didn't really, like, feel the effects of sexism too much as a Mormon. Like, I mean, you get flavors of it at byu Idaho. But again, it's like, I feel like, because I wasn't raised in a particularly sexist culture. I mean, there's sexism everywhere to certain degrees. But, like, England's pretty good, you know, or was when I was growing up, I never felt, like, less than. Or anything for being a woman. I think I continued to have, like, a strong will throughout being Mormonism. So if, If. If men, like, tried to be sue sexist, I'd just be like, okay. And, like, would just dismiss it as, like, well, that's like a personality problem that they have, you know, I mean, obviously looking back now, like, sexism is rampant in Mormonism.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:00] But I just think, like, it didn't Touch me too much. Because I was almost like, I don't say immune to it, but it's like, because I kind of like naturally was feminist in a weird way, even though I might not have described myself as that while I was Mormon, it's like I did have this kind of like, it. Patriarchal men are going to be more sexist to women who are primed to be submissive to them. You know, so like, when I would, you know, like that guy who told me and my friend to not wear skinny jeans, I'm like, absolutely not. I'm smarter than you and I'm gonna out outsmart you right now in this conversation and you're not going to get away with this.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:33] So stuff like that. But yeah, women and, but it's just like women in the priesthood, it's like the priest is not even a real thing to me. So I just, it never. That the, the women's stuff never came massively into focus and because I always saw myself as someone that would have a career and that was kind of becoming okay, ish. You know, as long as you still have children, you can like, okay, you can have a career.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:57] So it's like I had this idea of what my life as a Mormon woman would be. And it wasn't like the patriarchal norm, but I couldn't. I was too like, young and like, immature in my understanding of Mormonism to like, really see how everything fit together. You know,

John Dehlin [02:34:14] Part of what's interesting for me about this story, other than you're awesome, is that I, I got to know you and Connor as this was happening when I was at Utah State. And on the one hand, I experienced what I saw of you and Connor as you guys not only getting along well, but also being able to process all this stuff together, being on the same page, talking about it, getting excited about it. You know, this is when Zelf on the Shelf was formed, even though Connor wasn't maybe a visible part of Zelf on the Shelf.

John Dehlin [02:34:47] And so I, you know, compared to a lot of these mixed, mixed faith couples that I see in Mormonism, where it like wrecks the marriage for you guys, it almost seemed like it was bonding to you to be able to process your faith crisis together. Yeah, but it didn't end up so well because I also think a lot about the fact that you came together because of Mormonism. So talk about what you and Connor processing, your Mormon deconstruction together, what that did, how that affected your marriage from the deconstruction forward, if you want to, or not whatever you want to say about that.

Marriage Dissolution and Lessons Learned

Samantha Shelley [02:35:25] Well, first of all, I'll say that I think saying that it didn't end up so well is not how I see it, because I just think.

John Dehlin [02:35:32] Thank you. Yeah, thank you again.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:33] It's just part of my progression and part of my psyche experiencing what it thinks it needs to experience to be happy and then realizing, oh, hang on, wait, no, that's actually not the thing. And I think that's a big part of, like, you know, when I say we can kind of trust our psyche, I mean, I feel like that's kind of the general process is like we experience the thing that we think will make us happy for as long as it takes us to realize that it actually doesn't, or that there could be another way, or that we're so desperate for another way that we will be finally be brave enough to seek it and to, like, leave the thing that we're currently dependent on, you know, so important.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:05] So I don't, you know, I regret nothing that happened and I'm happy I married Connor. But yeah, I mean, like you said, there's a lot of people that leave Mormonism and they're in mixed faith marriages. But, like, the bar's so low, you know, like, both of you realizing that you're in a cult is not like that. That is one thing. And yeah, in. In a world to build a life exactly. Like, it's a low fucking bar. Like, we both know Mormonism isn't true. Great. And like, obviously there's more in that than that. Like, we had more in common. That's why we stayed married for two and a half more years after that.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:38] It's like, you know, we had some good times. We had fun together. There were lots of things we liked about each other. But yeah, we got married really young and under the illusion of Mormonism. And I. Yeah, we both just are different people. And the ways that we changed off to Mormonism took us in different directions, which I think is normal and healthy and.

John Dehlin [02:37:05] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:06] And I think breakups are amazing and divorce is amazing. And it's so amazing that we live in a time where women especially are able to get divorced and not just be stuck in the situations that they're stuck in, because history has been just riddled with women being stuck in abusive relationships that they can't get out of. Like, that's been my family's story. Like, that's part of our intergenerational trauma.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:31] So it's amazing. You know, like, I think about my Grandma in the 60s, 70s, trapped in a marriage with an abusive man who was a great granddad to me, I will say so again. Everything's not black and white. Like, my granddad softened in his old age. And to me, he was a genuinely a good granddad and like a. A positive force in my life. But it was a horrifying father.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:54] And I think about my grandma in that marriage. Three kids that she has to look after. She couldn't even drive. She didn't have a way to make money. I don't. You know, it just wasn't possible to leave your husband then. So she just has to watch her children be abused by this man. She has to be abused by this man.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:12] She then, when I'm a kid, has to watch the. The repercussions of my dad being abused by that man. You know, it's like. It's also. That's so much worse than divorce. Like, divorce is just like the dissolving of a socially constructed idea of what a relationship is. And it's amazing that we can. That we can do that and move on. I think it's amazing that divorce is becoming less stigmatized, and I think it's awesome. Divorce is the best thing I ever did.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:42] That's right.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:42] Been amazing.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:44] We would. I do think we would do just so much better as a culture if we were able to celebrate relationships.

John Dehlin [02:38:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:56] And look at the impact of relationships and realize that love, not all love, you know, can be measured in years. First of all, an impact can happen over a short time, and love can be powerful and real and true for four years and have served its purpose in time. And it would just be great to rally around our human beings and when it ends, be, like, amazing. Look at what you. Look at what you created. Look at what you did together, and you can surrender it. And then maybe in the surrendering, even sometimes you say goodbye, and that's the beautiful thing. And sometimes it allows you to have good feelings because you didn't wait so long and stay in that toxicity or whatever, parallel lives for longer. But it just feels like we could mature a lot in the way we look at love and relationships, especially because

Samantha Shelley [02:39:48] when we see breakups or divorce as a failure, I feel like people often run their love into the ground. And the truth. Like, the most loving thing me and Connor could have done for each other was get divorced. Like, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:01] And so many relationships are built on codependency, and that's the thing. Like, yeah, we left the church together and we were psychologically dependent on this organization together then that's Removed so we become psychologically dependent on each other. You gave us this analogy when we came to you for our divorce sushi, where if you're like this and one of you falls down, you both fall down. That's codependency. And it's like when the church was removed, we had to be that with each other.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:24] But it's like, it's amazing to be able to divorce sushi in the show notes. It's amazing to be able to move on from that and to, you know, I'm not, not that I'm saying my divorce wasn't messy and that's a whole story that I, you know, I'm not going to tell. But yeah, it.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:42] I very much like left my marriage full of love for Connor and he. And that I think is worth a lot, like, being able to be real enough with yourself to say, like, we, we might love each other a lot, but we are not helping each other be the fullest, most joyful, most like, fulfilled versions of ourselves. And though I am terrified to be alone and I'm terrified to be without you and it's going to be agony to, like, break the codependency that we have and to break this attachment that we have and to, you know, to love from a distance or whatever, like, that's the most powerful thing we can do if we want to truly love each other.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:31] It would be amazing if we had a society that valued that more. And it's so interesting to me because growing up, my parents were divorced, my mum's actually been divorced twice. And so in my mind I was like, I will never get divorced. And not that I really even knew. I went into marriage not even knowing what it took to make a marriage work or what it took for a divorce to happen. I didn't have a consent concept of any of that. It was almost just like these weird binaries of like, well, if you're a good person and you do the right things, then you'll stay married and your marriage will be good.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:58] And if you get divorced, it's because you did stuff wrong and you, you were bad in some way. Not seeing all the red flags of like, well, maybe a big precursor to divorce is getting married so fast when you don't even know the person for four seasons or whatever.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:12] Where was I going with this point anyway? I used to see divorces like, so I will never be divorced. And now I'm like, it's. I feel zero negativity at all towards being divorced because I'm like, that is the experience I needed to have to learn the lessons. I needed to learn to now have an amazing relationship where like every single day I'm so pumped to be in it. And it's like we've been together for five years and I still feel like it's like so fun and exciting and like, it feels like we're still so madly in love after five years. Like, that was never going to have been possible for me through like that framework I was sold and it was never going to be possible for my parents and it was never going to be possible for their parents.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:51] And like, the ideas that we were all sold about relationships were never going to create the kind of marriage that is actually going to make human beings thrive. And so it's like, if I had to go through a two and a half year marriage to learn that lesson, like, that's a bargain, you know what I mean? To then have like those lessons that you take with you for the rest of your life.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:11] And it's like sometimes you need to experience again the thing that you think is going to make you happy. You have to do the thing that you think you need to do to its fullness to like. And I know we didn't have kids or anything, you know, but you get what I'm saying. We have to like go fully into it to like learn the lesson that it's not the thing.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:29] And that shouldn't be a thing that we feel shame about. Like, that is amazing. Like, not everyone, not everyone gets that chance, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:43:35] Yeah, yeah, I love that framing. I really appreciate that framing. And to say too, it's such an act of courage. It's something that we should admire when a human being can realize, oh, I'm not going to perpetuate trauma either in sort of living out my triggers, my patterns of coping on another human, even a spouse, not even children, but just a spouse. And sometimes those things can be worked out in relation being in relationship to another. And sometimes they can't. Sometimes it's literally like, I'm going to stop hurting you. I'm going to stop being in relationship to you and I'm going to actually do my own work for a while. And that's something that I just think that is an act of, you know, that is just a mighty thing.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:29] Yeah, it's kind of like, well, with codependency because I just feel like most relationships are codependent and most unhealthy relations or all unhealthy relationships are. It's like trying to, trying to create a healthy relationship with Alcohol while you're an active alcoholic. Like, good luck. Yeah, I know it's a bit different. And yeah, sometimes you can like, people work through marriage stuff all the time. And that's great. That. Yeah. I think we're both so young and there was no like, sense in it, you know, there's no reason to like, we didn't have kids. We didn't. It's just like this idea of like, just making a marriage work because that's kind. You know, I could see a world where making a marriage work is like your spiritual practice. You know, it's like your grist for the mill. It's your. It's the way that you evolve. But it's like for two 22 year olds who got married, like.

John Dehlin [02:45:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:20] After knowing each other for not that long, who have no kids, who have no real reason to be, you know.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:25] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:26] Yep. Beautifully said. So in thinking kind of back now a little bit to the. To the narrative, so you kind of started. Started us on the faith transition. Right. That you kind of. And that kind of happened while you were married. So when did it. When. Okay, I'm going to tie back to. To before. When do you feel like things. Your suffering just sort of mounted and things really fell apart for you in a way that made. Was transformative. It like made you pay attention, the suffering, because that's. Or maybe it didn't happen that way for you, but talk about sort of moments of suffering and did they make you sort of pay attention to your wounds, you're coping in a new way, or was it something else?

Nihilism, Suffering, and the Search for Meaning

Samantha Shelley [02:46:24] So right after leaving Mormonism and being in this marriage, there was a. There was an intense period of suffering of just like, you know, complete nihilism, like no will to live, depression. I had some intense anxiety for a while and my. I talked about how as a kid I would have these like, obsessive thoughts about a fire at night. Well, that then transformed into like, I'm gonna get shot in a Walmart or, you know, I found it hard to go in public a little bit.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:58] Things like that. So was very much just like loose in the wind, like trying to get a foothold. And I. And I had a. A marriage I was happy to be in. And I had a good job by like the world standards in that, like, it paid me well. And I was like, quote unquote, successful even though it didn't make me happy. And I had.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:20] I mean, Tanner was my best friend. He's always been an amazing friend who I've always been able to have just, like, the best, you know, like, deep conversations with. About anything that's happening. And then I had other friends as well that would come and go.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:35] So there was. It. There was just a period of, like, desperately searching for meaning, annihilism. I remember I went to a therapist that John recommended in Logan because I just felt like I've got. I got nowhere to live right now.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:47] And he asked me to make. I know I've told some of this stuff before, so sorry, if you're listening and I'm repeating it, but I went to this therapist and he said, well, tell me some things that, like, make you happy or, like, make you make life good for you. And I said, the only thing I can think of is my cat, Clickbait. I'd recently got a cat called Clickbait.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:14] And so, yeah. And so I wouldn't say there was like, this massive sort of, like, crescendo of suffering. I would say sort of like, leaving the church and, like, the faith crisis experience was kind of the crescendo, but then the aftermath was kind of equally brutal.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:28] And I don't remember the exact timeline, but I remember that therapy session. I was just like, I'm not gonna go back because I just. I'm like, well, this person can't give me, like, a reason to live. Or, like, this person can't give me meaning.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:41] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:41] And it's like, I was so hungry for, like, something to be like, here's why life is worth living, or, here's why.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:48] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:48] And it's. You know, it's. There was a vacuum of ideology. And I think a part of me, like, hungered for an ideology. But then I also was so disillusioned by ideology generally.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:58] Mm.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:59] That. That was a whole thing. And I wasn't like, drawn towards spirit. Anything that reeked of spirituality was just a huge. No, no to me. Like, the word made me cringe. Even people talking about feelings too much was still just like, you know, it was all just like. Yeah. I went kind of cold in certain ways. And then I. It. I mean, the truth is that I didn't need an ideology to fill the vacuum. Right. It's like you slowly find meaning through living your life. And, like, for so long, my life had been like, yeah. Resting on this organization. And, you know, now I didn't have that. So it was. I didn't know it at the time, but I was just, you know, engaged in the slow process of, like, finding out what's meaningful to you.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:43] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:44] And it's like, it's never really like, well, never mind. But I can talk about kind of like, what shifted maybe.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:54] Yeah, we could do that. What I do, like, recognize a little bit is this. This pattern of sort of where we. Just. Like you're describing, we think certain things are the answer. We. Or we think if we follow a preset sort of way of doing things, that it will fix things for us. It'll make the world safe. It'll, you know, whatever, make us happy. It'll bring us the things we want or. And then inevitably, you come to this understanding of like, oh, no. Oh, no.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:27] Oh, no, no, no.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:28] None of it. None of that does that. Right. And then it, like, the world turns just sort of dark and it empties, and it tends to be, like, heavy. And there's almost like an untouchable quality. You feel, like, far away from everything. And that's actually becomes the ground. Right. For the. Not. I was gonna say, like, rebirth, but it's like a new planting. It's like a new sort of where now you hold that. You hold that. Okay. None of that's true. And what do I do with that? And what do I. And it can take years. It's not like something that's super, but is that what it felt like for you? Because it can. There are elements of that to what I'm hearing in your story, but at

Samantha Shelley [02:51:17] the time, I didn't have, like, that perspective. You know, I was just like, everything's terrible. We are just like an ape species that got too evolved, and life is suffering. I mean, this is all still kind of true. Yeah, you look at it, but it's just like, you know, no, there is no. There is no meaning. And everything's just kind of brutal. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:34] And it's not about answers because they're. Who's to say what the answers are?

Samantha Shelley [02:51:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Healing Through Plant Medicine and Psychedelics

Margi Dehlin [02:51:41] So what did change it? What was the catalyst for you where you experienced a different way or. Yeah. What was that for you?

Samantha Shelley [02:51:52] So there's a. There's a lot of pieces. I don't even know if I'll remember them all as we're talking, but I'll talk about a few. So I mentioned Clickbait, my cat.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:59] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:00] He was surprisingly instrumental. So me and Connor had got Clickbait kind of on a whim, just for something to do. And I had had cats growing up, so, like, you know, I knew how to take care of them. But, like, I wasn't a cat person or even a pet person or an animal person or a nature person. Like, I just was Kind of.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:18] I don't know. Yeah. And I got this cat, and he was a tiny kitten when I got him, like, five or six weeks old. And this was, like, the first sense of, like, meaning I'd had in my life for a while, because it was like, well, regardless of how you feel, like, this be this tiny being is dependent on you for survival. And so I remember, like, I worked at USU doing this copywriting job that I hate. It was so boring. I just wanted to gouge my eyes out every day I was there. And I remember I would. It. It put, like, a pep in my step, knowing that, like, on my lunch break, I could go home and see clickbait.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:53] Or after work, I would get to go home and see clickbait. And I think there's also something about, like, the unconditional love of an animal who's just, like, unproblematic, you know, just. Just loves you. So, yeah, this was like, my first experience of being, like, responsible for, like, another living being. And that was very fulfilling to me.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:16] And that also then, like, got me thinking just things about, like, animal rights in general. I don't remember around what time I read the book Sapiens, but, like, I was learning stuff about, like, evolution a lot around this time, I was watching a lot of David Asen production documentaries and, like, getting, like, more of a real sense of, like, why humans are here and, like, why we are this way.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:40] And I just. I started to learn more about the animal agriculture industry, the meat and dairy industry, how much it tortures animals. And, you know, I'd kind of known stuff my whole life because my grandma's a vegan, my dad's a vegetarian.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:55] And basically having clickbait and seeing how vulnerable he was and, like, how much it would hurt me to if he was in pain, like, got me, like, really invested in animal rights. And so I decided I wanted to eat vegan and be vegan.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:12] And that also added, like, some meaning to my life. And I think it was, like, you know, it was greatly needed. Like, I really. I also remember the day after I decided to start eating vegan, just having this, like, vitality in me for, like, the first time in a while, because I was like, okay, I have, like, yeah, a purpose. So I have, like. Like, what I can do today is, like, not contribute to animal suffering by buying meat and dairy. And that was, like, a small. You know, it wasn't enough to, like, fix me and, you know, make me whole, whatever. But it was just, like, the first puzzle piece of, like, that's Something that's important to me and that I have, like, independently come to, you know, Like. Well, there's no independently come to, but, you know, have. It's. It's like a. Yeah. You get what I'm saying?

Margi Dehlin [02:54:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:57] So that was a. That was, like, a nice little piece. I also started getting more connected to nature because it actually was originally because I just wanted to get good Instagram photos. And at the time, it was, like, very. Well, it still is, but, you know, getting good nature shots was very cool on Instagram. And we lived in Logan, so there's not a lot to do in Logan, but there's gorgeous hiking.

Samantha Shelley [02:55:19] So me and Connor would, like, sometimes just to take a photo, would, like, go out to these places in nature. But moral of the story, we started hiking. Like, that was a thing I'd not really done before. But me, Tanner and Connor, and some of our other friends would just go hiking on Sundays in Logan.

Samantha Shelley [02:55:36] And that started to give me, like, this new connection to nature that I'd never really appreciated before. And I'd grown up. My grandma was very into hiking, or walking, as we would have called it in England. And she would always take me into the woods, and we would, you know, just walk around, and she would be so, like, basking in nature, and it was so.

Samantha Shelley [02:55:57] It meant everything to her. Like, she would have to do, like, two hours walking every day, you know, like, in the woods, just by herself or with me if I would come. And so it was like, these things that I'd done as a child but, like, had done because I wanted to spend time with my grandma. Not necessarily. I don't know, because I wanted to have exercise so I could be thin. Who knows? But I. You know, I didn't have a connection to nature necessarily as a child or I didn't think about it that way. But then as I'm, like, doing this as an adult, I'm realizing how, like, fulfilling it is and how I don't know it, because, again, I was watching all these nature documentaries, learning a lot about evolutionary biology.

Samantha Shelley [02:56:34] I'm. It's. It was all kind of, like, merging with this growing sense of, like, what I am, which is just like, a Homo sapiens in a advanced civilization with these problems, because, like, these things are not conducive to or not supportive of, like, our nature. And, you know, so I was starting to get a more accurate sense of, like, humanity, I suppose, and, like, my place in it.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:00] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:57:00] And how, like, we are just another animal. Like, we are mammals. We're not, like, Some separate class of animals from mammals. So, yeah, like connection to nature and animals really started coming in and then through some very safe, very controlled psychedelic experiences that opened my mind up to. Well, it basically showed me like there is a well of emotion within you that you don't access and that you have resisted your whole life.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:32] Oh, I can just imagine the impact of that, given what you've just shared today.

Samantha Shelley [02:57:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:39] Can I. And you may not want to talk about it, but you, like in the past, let's just say three to four years, there's been a real uptick in psychedelic use since Michael Pollan wrote the book how to change your mind. And, and not, not just in the ex Mormon community, but broader. My sense is you kind of experimented with psilocybin before the massive upswing. Like you have a tattoo. Like, when did you get that? When did you get that tattoo?

Samantha Shelley [02:58:09] I got this like four years ago, I think.

John Dehlin [02:58:11] Yeah. So you were a little bit ahead of the, the trend. A tiny bit, yeah. Anything you want to say about that experience? What led to it?

Samantha Shelley [02:58:19] Well, I think it was what it meant for you. I was into Sam Harris, I think that was probably. But also with any, you know, before something enters the mainstream, it's. It's building in momentum before that. So I guess I just like caught the wave like slightly sooner than. But, you know, it was happening like it was on Reddit. People were talking about it, you know, like I, I went into it knowing like, this is a thing a lot of people, you know, get a lot out of and that is safe, as I've always been very safety conscious. So, like, the idea of doing any drugs is always an absolute no to me my whole life. But then once I started, like, you know, seeing the science and being like, okay, this is safe to do and has these potential benefits, then I was open minded.

John Dehlin [02:59:02] But it was a big enough, it was an important enough experience for you to get a tattoo of a mushroom.

Samantha Shelley [02:59:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:08] So is it worth telling us that experience? What, what, how it affected you?

Samantha Shelley [02:59:13] Yeah. So actually, you know, despite me saying all that about, you know, researching, I kind of. Tanner was really into the idea of doing, trying psychedelics because he wanted to have this like sort of philosophical, explorative consciousness experience. And I was sort of just like, well, let's do it. I'm open, you know, and I knew enough to know that it was safe and that people got good stuff out of it. But I remember thinking before I first tried mushrooms, I remember saying to Tanner, I was like, I'm not Looking to have any kind of, like, deep experience here. I just want to, like, have a fun time. And Tanner was like, okay. He's like. And then try that. Yeah. And then quickly learned that, you know, it was going to be a deep exploration of emotion and consciousness and. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:59] How would you describe it

Samantha Shelley [03:00:02] for you?

Margi Dehlin [03:00:03] And. And you've probably done a number, but if we're going to just kind of stick with your initial. Maybe the initial ones.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:10] What was the impact and what were the shifts that you kind of experience?

John Dehlin [03:00:16] And how many milligrams?

Samantha Shelley [03:00:17] Oh, God, I don't remember. But not that much. Like, definitely the first time. Not that much. And even, like, I've never done, like, a crazy amount of psilocybin. I've. It's always been, like. Are you even allowed to say? But it's always been, like, under about, like, three. I would say maybe. Maybe peaking at three. Yeah. So. But anyway, first time, I just remember the colors of every. We were on a hike, and the colors of everything were brighter, but I had this sense that, like, it wasn't like, hallucine. I was. I didn't feel like I was hallucinating. It was very much felt like just like a filter had been removed, which I do believe is true.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:56] Like, I think, you know, our brains have to, like, make things more static than they are for us to, like, you know, not be constantly all over the place, moving through the world. So I feel like it was like a. Well. And also, isn't it true that there's also. No. There's no, like, core color of a thing. Right. It's all perception. But anyway.

John Dehlin [03:01:15] Right.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:15] Colors were brighter.

John Dehlin [03:01:16] Flex off of it.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:17] Yeah. Nature was beautiful, but, like, beautiful in a more, like, emotional way.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:23] So did you feel more connected with, like, a part of you?

Samantha Shelley [03:01:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:27] That didn't have access to maybe the first time.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:31] It was more about, like, nature. And I felt connected to. To myself at, like, an evolutionary level.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:36] Got it.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:37] And I also, you know, got a sense of, like, oh, everything's, like, so much bigger than I think it is in my tiny little mind. And I got that sense of, like, interconnectedness that is common with psychedelics, of just, like, every single thing is, like, happening because of the influence of billions of years of evolution. Everything is influenced by a million other factors that we can't even see or control. And, like, just the idea that we, you know. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:58] So very macro.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:59] Yeah, I would say so. But then also, micro. Cause it's like, I could look at a leaf, and it would be stunning. And I'm, like, seeing it in a detail. I would never have been even considered, like, looking at it.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:08] Really.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:08] Yeah. I feel like if you're an artist or something, you do. But for me, no, I was. I've never been, like, a particularly visual person. It's always been, like, words. So. Yeah. But sort of like the. The most powerful, psychedelic experience I had, also mushrooms was when I. It basically was an experience that taught me about reparenting before I knew what reparenting was. So I took mushrooms, and I was kind of transported in my mind. And again, I've never had any, like, hallucinogenic experiences. I've never done enough to be, like, the way that it's shown in movies is not true to my experience.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:46] It's more just like my heart feels open and my brain is, like, working in these new ways, but none of it is. Yeah. I've never seen things or just. If anyone's scared of that. But this. This one time, I. I was transported back. And when I say transported again, it's not like I was, like, taken over by, you know, a thing. It's like I'm choosing to go there because my. But my brain is prompting me to go there, you know, to a time in childhood where there's domestic violence happening in my home, and I'm terrified, and I'm running to the phone to try and call my grandma.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:21] And then my grandma came over, and then I remembered. So vivid. And I hadn't really ever, like, thought about this in my adult life. And I was like, that's so wild that my grandma would come over and just, like, hold me and. And, like, make everything better. And, like, thank God, because imagine if she wasn't there. I just really got a sense for, like, you know, even though she couldn't always be there, it was, like, amazing that she could be that much.

Psychedelics, Grief, and Processing Loss

Samantha Shelley [03:03:47] And so then that really made me realize how much, like, I suppose, like, everything. How do I explain this? It made me realize that, like, the tenderness with which my grandma would treat me is the tenderness I should treat myself with. Because, like, I am still that person who was five in that situation, because I can feel her in me. Like, I was there. I experienced that. And everything I've experienced since then, like, everything we've ever experienced forms the foundation for everything that comes next. And so I had this.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:24] Yeah. I was, like, just basically being plunged back into the emotion of, like, those scary early childhood times. Yeah. And I realized so clearly that, like, I. As an adult, and I'd never again. I don't think I'd even heard of reparenting or like, this was like a concept that my brain at the, you know, I think our psyches just somewhere deep in us know to do.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:45] I just knew that I had to, like, comfort that child and hug her. And I imagined, like, what I would say now if I was an adult who could go, you know, And I kind of. And I thought a lot about how, like, the way that my grandma handled it is exactly how I would now handle it as an adult, which I'd always loved my grandma. I'd always have had nothing but respect for her my whole life. But it like, dramatically increased the level of respect I had for her of like, wow. No other adult in my life knew how to show up for me in that situation.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:14] Children generally. And she knew, like, she just had this intuitive sense of, like, what I needed and how to show up. And like, I benefited from that, like, as much as she couldn't take it away. Like, she did like, the maximum amount she could.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:30] So then that and then. But then it was. I also, with mushrooms of, you know, have had situations where, sorry, my mind is all over the place trying to think of the best way to frame this. But great moral of the story is I had a lot of experiences that showed me the importance of showing up for my inner child. Like, recognizing that in. In a lot of moments in life where I'm scared or my attachment insecurity is raging, or, you know, I feel like no one likes me, or I feel like I'm not good enough. Like, you can trace all that back to when you first felt that as a child and how vulnerable you were at that time and how you weren't getting, like, the guidance and the support and like, the validation you needed.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:10] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:11] And realizing the importance of, like, being that for yourself now as an adult. And like, when things come up, it was. It was really beautiful, you know, like, I imagined giving myself as a child, like a big hug just the way my grandma would.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:25] So it connected me to my inner child, but it also connected me to my grandma. And then she, you know, was also. Sorry I should give this context, but my grandma, I think she had died by this point. So my grandma died around the time that I was taking psychedelics.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:43] So that was also kind of perfect timing because it's like I'm processing her death and I'd processed all my other grandparents deaths. She was my last grandparent to die, and she died at 76, which was. Was really young for how healthy she was. It was kind of Tragic.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:59] But basically, with psychedelics, I was able to process her death through, like, such a beautiful lens where I'm, like, actually processing it. And it's like, with my other grandparents, I hadn't really needed to process it in any kind of, like, big, meaningful way.

Samantha Shelley [03:07:12] It was just like, that's sad, but people do die. And, like, you know, I'd feel sad and. But with her, she was, like, such a different figure in my life than everyone else. And so it was a. It was a different type of grief, and it was a different type of, like, I. I think it's so.

Samantha Shelley [03:07:29] I'm glad I don't. I mean, maybe this could have happened with or without psychedelics. Who's to say? But I'm glad I was able to, like, honor her death, to, like, I was able to go fully into it all and, like, not only process the fact that she's gone, and I'm sad about that, but, like, everything she did for me in my life that, like, I. You know, I'd always had a sense of, like, she's a great grandma. She. She's amazing. I love her, but, like, really getting a sense for, like, what she meant to me and what she did for me.

Samantha Shelley [03:07:56] Yeah, sorry, I repeated myself a few times that. But basically, psychedelics forced me to confront my inner child and also just see how everything is interconnected and, like, everyone. Another thing I realized on psychedelics, which I know to some people is controversial, is, like, free will doesn't exist. The way that we think about it. Like, everyone is the product of their genetics and experiences, and every thing we have is, like, you know, our brains are machines and neurons that fire together, wire together.

Samantha Shelley [03:08:31] So this idea that people are good and bad just, like, became so nonsensical to me and so, like, unscientific and illogical, which then, like, slowly started expanding my circle of compassion to where I could feel more and more empathy for different types of people. And, like, I could look at anyone who had done, like, any bad thing and, like, feel empathy for them, which then I started to feel, like, connected to Jesus, or at least, like, the. The words of Jesus that I've read. I don't know. I'm not, like, a. A scholar in, like, what's historical and what isn't. But things that Jesus said started to make more sense to me, you know, like, how he was so concerned with Bring all the children to me.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:12] Like, I could see so clearly how the way that we make society better is by not traumatizing children as much, because we traumatize children, they don't get what they need. They have these maladaptive coping mechanisms. They have these. This. You know, generally, the more traumatized you are, the bigger your ego in that, like, the more of a mask you feel that you have to wear, because there's a bigger disconnect between what life expects of you publicly and, like, what you're feeling inside. And that just creates, like, untold conflict and misery.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:42] So I. I felt like I really connected with that idea of, you know, Jesus always going on about the kids and being like, bring them to me. And.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:49] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:50] And I saw how that is, like, the foundation of a healthy society is like, children being treated well.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:58] And other thing. You know, there's a lot of things Jesus said that I now, you know, relate to a lot or align with. But when Mormon, it was just kind of so superficial, like the way I would relate to Jesus.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:13] Yeah. It's interesting because as you're kind of talking, it makes me think of, like, the. That time where you were feeling kind of just that vacuum or depression or as like a turning off of your engine and things just getting really quiet and. But then you're like. As you. As you are describing some of the things that were part of that impetus for change. It's like you're. You're kitty, right. You get a. It didn't seem like tremendously planned.

Samantha Shelley [03:10:45] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:45] Felt like, oh, this is. Let's just go and get a kitty. Or like, the things that you're describing, they don't seem like. Do you know what I mean? Like, so prescriptive. Or like, oh, I should do this, and now I'm gonna. It seems like, like you were just kind of open and life came and then you did the thing, and then it ended up bringing a bit of new life. Like, the kitty ends up being this light for you where you can live for another before maybe you live for yourself. You can live for this other living thing. And then same with veganism. It's like, well, how can I not cause suffering?

Margi Dehlin [03:11:19] I'm suffering. That's making me feel for collective suffering. How. What can I do? It gives you this, like, okay, I won't hurt, you know, animals, or in. In that way. It just. It feels like so organic, that process. And even like your mushroom experience it. That also feels like. And it's like turning the engine back on. But it's not like you were trying. It didn't feel it. When you're telling it like, my purpose is that I want to, like, give myself purpose again, or it's just like you're just trying different things. You're being alive and receptive, and then slowly it sort of feels like you're having more and more that you care about. That's connecting for you. Is that how you would describe it?

Samantha Shelley [03:12:05] And I. I really have connected a lot with Taoism since, you know, leaving Mormonism and just the idea that when you kind of surrender to the flow of life, you can trust that it will unfold in the ways it needs to. And that's why I'm always talking about, like, you can trust your psyche more than you realize to. And. And it's our attempts to, like, grasp or, like, hunger after an ideology or for someone to, like, tell us what's going to give us meaning. Like, all of that is, like, so futile. And what, like, leads us down these really, like, random, weird paths that, like, don't lead to the.

Samantha Shelley [03:12:36] The thing. Because, I mean, obviously, like, a million people can get a cat or do psychedelics or do any of that stuff, and it's not going to change their life like that. It could just be like, you know, nothing or even a negative experience. But it's like, I think.

Samantha Shelley [03:12:50] I think I just had the right combination because of leaving Mormonism of, like, skepticism and openness, which I feel like is important because sometimes you can be too open and there's not enough skepticism, and sometimes you can be too skeptical and there's not enough openness. But somehow, like, through chance, I had, like, the right combo of the two.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:07] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:13:08] To, you know, and was obviously like. I think after you leave Mormonism, you're often in, like, a very. You're thinking a lot. You know, you're always, like, looking for meaning. You're looking for the lessons that you can learn. So, you know, I get a cat, you know, if I would have got a Catwoman Mormon, would I have become a vegan because of it? Probably not. I don't know. Maybe. But I was just, I suppose, in the right mindset to learn those things. And it is interesting because it was almost like a time when I'd, like, given up on, like, finding meaning. It's like when I gave up on finding meaning, I found it, which feels very Taoist and like.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:40] Yeah. Which I want to dive a lot more into too, about what you love about it. But, yeah, I love that aspect of it. What? Yes, John.

Cannabis as Part of the Healing Journey

John Dehlin [03:13:51] Yes, John, this is a topic that you may not want to talk about or you may not want it to be published, but I'm dying to ask it because I knew you when and I was observing something specific that I want to ask about. Yeah, so this is my attempt at

Margi Dehlin [03:14:07] obtaining consent, which you can also decline at the moment. You can sell it.

John Dehlin [03:14:13] So I noticed a lot of this is the first time I was kind of close to somebody who was using cannabis. And we may or may not cut this out, but I, as I was experiencing you in Tanner and I don't know, maybe Connor, experimenting with cannabis, I had some really mixed feelings. On the one hand, it seemed kind of fun and exciting. It seemed like it would lend us some creativity or just enjoyment or even, you know, anxiety management or distress tolerance or whatever emotion regulation, dealing with the difficulties of, of what you were all going through.

John Dehlin [03:14:57] On the other hand, sometimes it seemed like it wasn't healthy, it was excessive. Really it was. I make it all sound like I don't know, but no, I felt like you sometimes expressed that it might have been excessive. So it's not so much my judgment. It was what I remember hearing from you that it got to be at some point it moved from being fun or just self medicating to kind of almost maybe even disabling. But I'm more interested instead of planting or seeding your reaction, just hearing your reflections on the role of cannabis because obviously more and more people are using cannabis these days and I just want to know what role cannabis played and how that's settled for you now. And then I want to jump right back to where Margi was going, but I think this is an important topic.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:46] Yeah, thanks for asking. And I'm definitely not as into cannabis now. I mean, I think it's. I still will use it and I think it has value and stuff. But yeah, there was a period in my marriage where I did use it a lot. The way I see that is it was a. Yeah, there was a time in my marriage where it was a coping mechanism. But do I think it entered, do I think it ever became harmful or too negative? Like. No, I don't because I was using it like as a coping mechanism. But I was, you know, I never smoked it. I never, you know, I would only like vape a dry herb in like the safest vaporize, you know, not like the oil pans or the way I would do it would always be the safest way I could in like, you know, I wasn't like driving around on it or stuff like that wasn't going to work high.

Samantha Shelley [03:16:39] I don't think I even had a job at that point. The I, I think there was a time when I felt like, well, there was a time when it did do a lot for me in terms of like unlocking my creativity.

Samantha Shelley [03:16:53] And for a period of time, cannabis helped me actually a lot with processing childhood trauma because it would bring memories to the surface, like so viscerally. And that was really helpful. And also, to be frank, there was just a period in my marriage where I was just like, you know, life just like wasn't my favorite. But with cannabis, you know, life was good and it made me want to go on a walk and look at the cranes and it made me want to make a stupid YouTube video or like clean my apartment. And you know, if it's not having any real detrimental effect on your health, then who, you know, it's like, yeah, ideally none of us would, would need a substance to function optimally, but I just don't think that's how humans work.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:37] Like humans have always had vices in every society. And I feel like around that time I was also just like such a healthy eater, like just so much plant based eating, it also helped me. Oh, so another thing I want to talk about, actually this is a bit of a segue so I don't know, do you feel like I've answered your

John Dehlin [03:17:54] question enough so well? Yeah, I mean, I guess what you're

Samantha Shelley [03:17:58] saying is it's not black and white and I know it's, I understand the mindset of like, oh well, you seem kind of dependent on it and it's like, yeah, it probably was. But like, you know, cannabis is not meth, it's not cocaine, it's not alcohol, it's not even sugar. So I, I just think, you know, as much as, yes, for a period of time I was dependent on it. Like I've never, I was conscious the whole time of like the reality of what was happening. And you know, I, I, if things, yeah, if things had ever got to a thing where I thought I should be worried, I would have been worried. You know, like you've, I've never been someone who's like reckless with health or well being and if my life is like going down the pan because of something I'm doing, like I'm very aware of it and I'm not, you know,

John Dehlin [03:18:42] and just to close out the top,

Samantha Shelley [03:18:43] it helped more than it hurts. What I'm trying to say. The benefits outweighed the cons and I knew it wouldn't be like that forever, but for that period in my life it was very helpful.

John Dehlin [03:18:52] And just to close out the topic, I guess at some point you decided to use it less and if so, why?

Samantha Shelley [03:18:58] Yeah, it was just kind of gradual. I just think because, like, also there's kind of. Can be a honeymoon period with cannabis and it can do a lot for you. And then I think as I've got older and I can access those mindsets without it. It's kind of like that with psychedelics too. You know, in the beginning, like, I so desperately wanted to access those mindsets because they opened me up in all these ways. But now I sort of know how to access them without that. And I still think cannabis is great, can be great, and I still enjoy it. And yeah, as I said, I think that's good things in it. But.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:29] And is the part of the reason why you can access it now a bit more on your own? It is. Is that because those connections have been made in your brain, so now they're yours to actually retrieve.

Samantha Shelley [03:19:42] And I know that for some people, like the experiences I've had on psilocybin, for example, like, they have those experiences without it. I just think for me personally, that wouldn't have been possible. I mean, you never know because, like, who's to say? But it's like, I definitely needed to be, like, strapped to the rocket and, you know, because I wasn't about to, like, start a meditation practice and get there that way. Or.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:03] Or even choose necessarily. Like, choose to go back to a time of life.

Samantha Shelley [03:20:09] Yeah. Or, like, realize that I needed to. Exactly. There was not. Yeah. That. That belief was not installed in my mind of, like, you need to revisit your childhood. Like, no way. That would have been, like, the furthest thing.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:20] And I know a lot of people that would be like, no, I'm not. I did not choose to do that. No.

Samantha Shelley [03:20:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:24] Yeah, so.

Samantha Shelley [03:20:25] But it was that. It was very. It was amazing. Like, what psilocybin did for me is like, what religion, like, kind of claims to be able to do. Like, that. That. That genuine feeling of like, baptism through fire sometimes because you have to, like, revisit some of the hardest things in your life or what I mean, you know, feeling like this sense of oneness with everything. Like, feeling, you know, that feeling of, like, doing psychedelics. I understood what it meant. When God is like, I am that I am. And like, that is the. The biggest truth about God. Like, that is everything. Everything is interconnected. Like, there is no truth about ourselves other than just like, I am all of those things. Sorry, I'm like, kind of like butchering. I could have done a bigger explanation of all that, but I'm not really.

John Dehlin [03:21:16] That was Great.

Samantha Shelley [03:21:16] Feeling inclined.

John Dehlin [03:21:18] That was brilliant.

Samantha Shelley [03:21:19] But, yeah, there's, like, a bunch of stoners watching who could do a bad job explaining that. But anyway, what were you saying?

John Dehlin [03:21:25] No. So you had a segue from there to something else you wanted.

Samantha Shelley [03:21:28] Cannabis. Oh, another thing that was a big. There's been a lot of things that have, like, improved my Life by, like, 7%, if you know what I mean. There's not been, like, one big 100% thing, but one thing. So I lived on the Jordan river at this time during my marriage when I was using cannabis too much, according to John, and I would go on walks every day, and I was building this relationship with the river, and it was also cool because I moved there in the winter, and then I watched, like, how the river would transform in the spring and then into the summer, and then there were these giant cranes here, and, like, you watched the baby ducks grow up.

Samantha Shelley [03:22:01] And I'd never had that kind of, like, connection to the seasons of nature before, so that was really beautiful. And like, every. You know, going from winter into spring into summer, it's like, every day there's, like, a new flower or a new bird or, like, a new thing happening, and it's so, like, full of life. Anyway, so I started going on walks every day. Well, yeah, I started going on walks every day, and that was really powerful. And then I found this podcast called My Dad Wrote a Porno. This sounds silly, but this is a pivotal point in my healing journey. And this is just a comedy podcast.

Samantha Shelley [03:22:34] Like, three British people being funny, roasting this erotic fiction book that one of their dads had written. And this book, it was, like, feeding my, like, you know, homesickness and, like, missing British people and, like, British humor. And this podcast just made me feel so good that I was like, well, if I'm gonna be listening to this podcast, I might as well, like, move my body while I'm listening to it, because I can't just, like, sit still and listen to. To a podcast. So I started going to the gym every day, and I would, like, speed walk on an incline on the treadmill listening to this podcast.

Samantha Shelley [03:23:05] So I would do. Basically, I started doing 30 minutes of cardio every day, and that was amazing. Like, I had gone from, you know, just being too depressed to even move and even, like, getting out the house once was kind of difficult to getting this, like, daily movement practice in. And then I, you know, advanced it a bit when I felt like it. Like, I'd do, like, a little bit of Pilates or, you know, strength stuff, and that became like kind of a non negotiable every day. Not as, you know, I wasn't pushing myself. It was mostly like speed walking and, you know, it was all very balanced compared to, you know, eating disordered, working out.

Samantha Shelley [03:23:42] So this is like the first time in my life I'd had like this really healthy exercise practice. And it was all thanks to this podcast because, like, I don't know, something about like how it's like I did an accidental habit stack where I combined something that made me so happy.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:55] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [03:23:55] With something else that was like kind of like a new habit I was wanted to build. That was a bit tough. Although I will say, like, the reason I even would go to the gym once in a while before that was because of cannabis. Like, that would help me go to the gym and get some movement in even when I still lived in Logan. So that's another thing about that. Yeah, there's a lot of things that cannabis can motivate you to do because it just kind of adds like a little like layer of sparkle to things, which at the time I desperately needed. And I'm like, I was at a sparkle. I was sparkle deficient, you know, because I just left a high demand religion. So it's like, it was nice to have that.

John Dehlin [03:24:28] Yeah, that's it. I'm trying it tonight.

Samantha Shelley [03:24:30] Yeah, I believe it.

Margi Dehlin [03:24:35] That's so interesting. It's so interesting how that pairing.

Samantha Shelley [03:24:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:24:40] You know, you attached it to something and then you kind of got double the.

Samantha Shelley [03:24:44] Yeah. And then now, like ever since, I mean, that was like five. Five years ago. Five and a half years ago. Like now movement is just like a thing I always want, like, want to do. I mean, not, you know, you have days where you want to rest. But it's like before then, exercise was just such a different thing to me. It was like something I had to try and make myself do.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:02] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [03:25:03] And then from then forward, it's just been like this joyful pursuit that. Yeah. Has been amazing.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:09] That shift, I feel like, is huge. Moving it from like a should or a chore or almost even like a punishment for eating or like some. Some of so much of the disordered eating that's around to a joy.

Samantha Shelley [03:25:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:24] It's a pleasure. It's something I do for myself. Yeah, I love that.

Samantha Shelley [03:25:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:29] All right. I want to build on this because it's sort of. I feel like now we're naturally going into rebuilding, which is like so beautiful, like happy to be here. But before we do, just because I. I think processing loss and having grief Come up is such a key part of. Of the journey that I don't want to skip it. So for you, did you. I'm curious about this kind of what grief and loss looked for you. Look looked like for you. And did you ever feel like that you had to grieve at all the childhood you wish you would had or the love you wish you had? You know what I mean? Anything retroactive for you that way or less.

Grieving the Mormon Life Left Behind

Samantha Shelley [03:26:17] So do you know what? I feel like? I've never really been a person who has regrets because I've always just seen how everything leads to where you are right now. And so I think by the time I had started thinking about my childhood enough to mourn that I didn't have certain things, I was already in a place that I wouldn't have changed.

Samantha Shelley [03:26:40] So I'd say, no, I didn't have to grieve the childhood I didn't have. I mean, you know, there's still like, pain that I would have to process of, like, that's so painful that I had to go through that in that way and. Or whatever. But it's always felt.

Samantha Shelley [03:26:55] Everything's always felt like. I don't know, it's just been like sort of a bizarre trajectory that I've been on my whole life. But, like, it all makes sense and it feels like it's just got better and better. Like, yeah, the faith crisis really sucked. But it's like my time as a moment was good. I had a good time. I, you know, was able to get away from my childhood in a way that felt good.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:17] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:27:18] And then I was in a marriage that for a while I really liked or, you know, wouldn't have changed. And then in my marriage, I was able to like, explore meaning and purpose and learn about myself. And I kind of had like, the safe containment of my marriage for the time that I needed it. So, yeah, I would say, like, no, no retroactive. No retroactive mourning. No.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:45] What did you grieve or what did you have to process as loss?

John Dehlin [03:27:52] I mean, there's the loss of your grandma. Did you have to grieve that?

Samantha Shelley [03:27:55] Yeah, that. That was obviously a big grief loss thing. But also it was like, that really taught me how much grief can be. Like. Grief can be like an an additive thing, like grief grieving, grieving the right way. Not that there's a right way. How do I explain this? Grieving in a way that, like, honors yourself and the person and the relationship you had and like, everything they meant to you. Like, grieving in a way that Just really honors the grief.

Margi Dehlin [03:28:21] Right.

Samantha Shelley [03:28:21] Can add so much to your life. Yeah. So where was I going with this? What are we talking about?

Margi Dehlin [03:28:31] You also had mentioned free will, grieving.

Samantha Shelley [03:28:33] Yeah, that actually was a bit of a grieving thing. I remember when I. I had this kind of moment where I just realized, well, like, where would free will come in? Like, I remember at the time I was thinking about my mum. I was like, where would be the point where free will would come in? Like, she's born into this family. Her brain is wired. This one. I mean, it doesn't have to be my mom. It's actually anyone. But, you know, your brain is wired towards these things. You're taught, what's good and what's bad. Your brain, you know, whether or not you act in rebellion to the things you've been taught or in adherence to them.

Samantha Shelley [03:29:04] Like, whatever it is. Like, we all can only access thoughts that, like, we don't choose what thoughts we get to have. Like, if I ask you name a movie, you don't get to scan every movie in the world to figure out which movie is going to come to me. It's just like, what comes to mind. And, like, we only ever have access. We can only ever make choices that our brain thinks to make. And, like, we're never going to think of every choice we could make in a situation. The choices that even become available to us as, like, potential options are the result of all of our conditioning and genetics and all of that interacting.

Samantha Shelley [03:29:39] And then what choice we make is going to be our brain weighing up, like, all of its values and, like, what, you know, all the information it has to see what seems best and. Yeah, so I just couldn't see a case for free will. Like, even though it's like a useful construct, you know, it's useful to live as if we have free will. You have to, like, you can't get away from it as like a. Yeah, you have to live believing that you have free will on some level in the way that you act. Because I just don't. Yeah. I don't know if anyone is able to walk around not. Yeah, we're wired to feel like we're acting, you know.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:18] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:30:18] Anyway, do you.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:20] Do you have practices around grief at all to help you process grief or did any emerge during that time? Like, what does grief and loss, like, how does it show up for you? What does it look like?

Samantha Shelley [03:30:31] Practices. I would journal a lot. That's always been a big one for me. Just like writing out.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:38] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:30:39] Feelings. I'm very much a Person who's like, well, I suppose I'm always. The way that I journal is usually through the lens of like, this is what's going on. This is kind of what I think my higher truth is in this situation. And, like, what I need to keep in mind or what, you know, what I think is the best course of action. I guess I'm always trying to contextualize everything through the lens of like, what do I need to do? Like, how do I need to show up for myself.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:08] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:31:09] In terms of practices with grief, I suppose just like, it's just normal stuff like journaling meditation, just sitting with the feelings, talking about them with others.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:23] Yeah, those are great.

Samantha Shelley [03:31:25] Yeah, those are brilliant.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:26] Yeah. Do you. Do you have a meditation? What does your meditation look like right now?

Samantha Shelley [03:31:32] Well, it can be sporadic, but it's. I mean, I generally do a type of meditation where you just bring your attention to the breath and then when your mind wanders, you bring it back. Yeah, yeah. I've done like small amounts of transcendental meditation, which. But I feel like TM is kind of like gate kept, so I don't know if I would, you know, I've just like taken on the. The mantra of ohm if I do it. And so some people would say that's not real transit. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:31:59] But, yeah, I mean, yeah, I think meditation's really good.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:32:04] And I also love the Headspace app. I'm like the biggest advocate. I feel like people will be purists about meditation for reasons I don't understand of, like, I should just do it, you know, with. On my own, with no guidance. But I'm just like. That's why I feel like people don't really grasp meditation that well.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:32:20] So I've loved the Headspace app. I know there's like different apps that do it, but the guy who made it is, I think, a trained Tibetan monk, even though he's just this down to earth English dude.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:28] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:32:29] And so he really, he taught me meditation, like line upon line. And actually going through my divorce was when I got the most heavily into my meditation practice. And I would do like 20 minutes twice a day with the Headspace app. And that was like, massive. Massive. I even like got off Adderall because I've been medicated with Adderall for ADHD for years, but when I was meditating that much, like, I didn't need it. I had such a. Wow, clear mind that I felt so sort of not in control of, but it's like, yeah, I Was so friendly with my mind is the best way I can describe it.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:05] Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Well, beautiful. Okay, so we can go, let's go ahead and head back to rebuilding, which you had already just sort of naturally flowed into. Through talking about a little bit about Taoism, right. And what you, what you love about it. And so you were kind of just beginning to kind of say how it shows up in your life. And do you want to say anything else about what you love about it and what's useful? Like, what comes to mind a lot about Daoism that you think is, is benefits or informs your experiences.

Taoism, Surrender, and Finding Peace

Samantha Shelley [03:33:42] Now I think I've just seen how true it is that when you surrender to life rather than trying to control it, like, how much things, how much happier we are, how much more ease we can live with, how much things will flow into our lives that, you know, are beneficial for us. I just, I think so many of us, and I think like, a false perception of free will can be part of this. It's like we feel like we can control so much more of life than we actually can, which causes so much suffering instead of, you know, like, when things happen, we're so quick to be like, how dare you?

Samantha Shelley [03:34:21] Or like, how can this and all those things, like, just cause suffering? Because the reality is like this. So, like, yeah, you can be curious about why, like, what are the factors that led to this happening. But I feel like so often we just get stuck in this.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:36] Like, it's like resistance.

Samantha Shelley [03:34:37] Yeah, resistance. And it, which leads to, like, blame, which leads to conflict, which, you know, which like, limits your ability to, like, holistically understand a certain situation. So I, I, I appreciate that. Daoism is all about, like, just looking at what's in front of you and saying yes to it and just seeing what unfolds. And, you know, not that that means you become apathetic or anything. I think if anything, you, I mean, I recently stopped working at my tech job that I worked in for four and a half years.

Samantha Shelley [03:35:09] So I've been making my work schedule very, like, free and open and breezy and just kind of allowing myself to say yes to what makes sense. And just even that, that feels like quite a Taoist transition, like, going from this, like, scheduled, regimented. And it is amazing, like, the way my energy will, will be. I'll have, like, a natural supply of energy that wasn't there before because it's, I don't know, when you just kind of like, create space around, like, in your day I just feel like you can see what am I naturally energized towards doing. And then the things that you're natural, you have natural energy for doing, are probably going to be the things that are going to lead to the best outcomes for you in life because you actually want to do it from a place of genuine, like, zest rather than like always living in opposition to, you know, when I was in my tech job, I.

Samantha Shelley [03:36:02] I might have like hours of free time in the day, but because I felt like I should be doing something for this job, you know, I'd waste it on my phone or it's like I'm still like living in opposition to this thing rather than like genuinely having. It's like time takes on a completely different quality when you allow it to be like, open. Yeah. Am I talking in two abstract woo woo terms? What do you think?

Margi Dehlin [03:36:27] No, no, I, I totally, I get it. And I think it's such an interesting foil to Mormonism, honestly, where everything is so effortful.

Samantha Shelley [03:36:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:36:37] And there's just a lot of natural

Samantha Shelley [03:36:39] endure to the end.

Margi Dehlin [03:36:40] Right. And control, like, control, effort, all the things to do to create, you know, that illusion that you're going to be safe as opposed to this idea of going with the stream, like going with that flow and trusting that it takes you. There's kind of this. This. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:37:04] Especially because in Mormonism, I mean, the things that you try to resist, you know, how many people have fallen into potentially a genuine porn addiction because porn is so vilified that they feel so much shame because they watch it one time that they then like, you know, that's kind of one of their own only high sources of dopamine, like quick, easy dopamine. So like they are more likely to watch porn because of their resistance to porn. And then that can become, you know, like what we resist does persist. That feels very true.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:33] Yeah, exactly. And you mentioned the podcast. My dad wrote a porno podcast as being. And is it the podcast too? Not just that it was coupled with the exercise, was the podcast really itself beneficial?

Samantha Shelley [03:37:48] The podcast was good. Yeah. Because it was, it. It was just these three British friends, like around my age, laughing, bantering together. It was so like healing for me, I think, to just like be exposed to just three normal people living their lives and like having a laugh like that. I really needed that and like life didn't have to be, you know, I think before then I'd been listening to a lot of like, deep philosophical podcasts and like, searching so hard for meaning. But it was actually when I like relinquished that control and was like, just listen to a podcast because you think it's really funny and like, just walk on the treadmill because like, you know, it feels good to like do it and it feels good to have done it once you've done it.

Samantha Shelley [03:38:26] And you know, I feel like all the things that have made the biggest difference to my health and well being and life and happiness have been sort of like the more gentle, easygoing things. And I feel like these campaigns we go on to like change our lives and like, I mean, they can be good and maybe it's personality dependent, but I feel like I find a lot more success with just what feels fun and nice and joyful in this moment.

Margi Dehlin [03:38:50] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:38:51] And then if you, you know, if you have a good time listening to a podcast and speed walking on the treadmill, you're a lot more likely to do it again than if you were like, okay, I'm gonna put on a really fast song and I'm gonna run for 30 minutes and I'm gonna just suffer through it. You probably aren't gonna want to do that again.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:04] That's right.

Samantha Shelley [03:39:05] In the same way.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:06] Yeah. Yep. The power of humor.

Samantha Shelley [03:39:09] Yeah. Yeah. And just like it's real for sure things. So seriously, generally.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:15] Yeah, serious. That's another thing Mormonism, I think is so great at is just everything is grave, everything is serious. Everything, everything.

Samantha Shelley [03:39:23] Your salvation depends on everything.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:25] That's right. But it's just humor and levity and lightness and can be a relief. Yeah. So are there other. Well, I kind of want to put repair reparenting aside and do like kind of a deep. But other resources that you would want to mention as part of like important like perspectives to your rebuilding.

Books and Resources That Supported Healing

Samantha Shelley [03:39:50] Oh, yeah. So after I had that mushroom reparenting experience, I read a book called Inner Bonding by Margaret Poole, which I loved. It changed my life. It changed several of my friends lives as well. It just gives a really good framework for. Because you know, people say like, show up for your inner child and it's like, what does that actually mean? I'm someone that really likes sort of a formula or like a, A clearly laid out system and it really gives you that and it's. Yeah, I think that's an amazing book.

Margi Dehlin [03:40:18] So let's. So I'm going to put a pin in it and we'll come back to it because I kind of want to explore in depth kind of what that looks like and how it comes up for you and if you don't mind. But so other books or resources that you would kind of mention, I know you love Eckhart Tolle.

Samantha Shelley [03:40:35] I do love Eckhart Tolle. That was another, another sort of 7% life in increase of well being.

Margi Dehlin [03:40:41] I, I love that you have the measurement 7% exactly.

Samantha Shelley [03:40:45] It's like it's significant enough but it's not like let's not change your life. Yeah, yeah. So I read the Power of Now, which at first I was skeptical of because at first I was like this language is kind of woo woo. This all feels a bit abstract, but I was like, well, I've heard it's good. You know, I'll give it, I'll give it a chance. And there was, I remember this one line and I think this was, this was pre. My reparenting realizations, but those. There's this one line where he just talks about how most of the thoughts we have every day are repetitive and most of like the anxious or negative thoughts are thoughts that we had yesterday.

Samantha Shelley [03:41:20] And like we, we like to think of ourselves as so original but really it's just like patterns of thinking. And for some reason when I read that line, that's when I kind of was like, okay, this book has something for me.

Samantha Shelley [03:41:33] And so this thing that previously I'd been reading and had felt kind of woo woo kind of took on this whole new quality. And I was like, oh, I get it. I get what he's saying. I feel like Eckhart Tolle is not for everyone and some people do read him and it's just, it doesn't click and that. I think that's fine. Every, everyone resonates with different things. But the Power of Now and Then. His book A New Earth really helped me a lot.

Samantha Shelley [03:41:54] The way that he describes the concept of ego has been so helpful to me. So yeah, him also. Tara Brack. Do you like. You do like Tara Brack?

Margi Dehlin [03:42:05] Yeah, I do. What was it about in particular? True Refuge though? Do you have any takeaways or do you remember any shifts from that book that were in particular quite a while ago?

Samantha Shelley [03:42:19] I feel like the main, I mean the, the book is basically about like kind of what we've been talking about, which is not thinking that like one thing is going to be the thing. Like don't get too attached to your method. Like we're all kind of on a journey and some things are going to resonate and some things are not. But don't.

Samantha Shelley [03:42:35] Especially I think when you come out of a high demand religion again, you're so hungry to like latch onto a mindset. And if you Find something that works for you. And I really, like, relate to this impulse, so it's in me a lot is like, you find something that really works, and you just are like, everyone needs to know about this. Everyone needs to be doing this. This is, like, the thing.

Samantha Shelley [03:42:53] And so I feel like that book does a good job of being like, here's how to sit with your feelings, honor your feelings, sort of confront what's actually true, rather than, like, all these stories in your head, but then also in a way that isn't, you know, so, like, ideologically attached or. How would you describe it? Am I. Yeah. Does that sound true?

Margi Dehlin [03:43:15] Yeah, it sounds great. I actually haven't read True Refuge. I read her. She wrote another one, and I've listened to her meditation. Yeah, Radical.

Samantha Shelley [03:43:25] The other one I read. They're kind of similar.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:27] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [03:43:27] They're not that different.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:29] Yeah. I would say it is a browned, kind of slowly leading you to this place where you can be a container for your experiences and be a safe container for all that you experience.

Samantha Shelley [03:43:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:42] On a level, like, just teaching you kind of like what we talked about with the mental illness approach of difficult emotions, giving you some practices. And she's really great because she will give you actual meditations or actual practices or things for you to kind of do.

Samantha Shelley [03:44:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:01] And her voice is, like, the gentlest voice imaginable.

Samantha Shelley [03:44:04] When I first heard her voice, I was like, I can. I can't listen to her. I don't like her voice. And I read her books.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:08] I've heard that.

Samantha Shelley [03:44:10] Yeah. My boyfriend said it to me. Like, we both met and, like, talked about how we had once listened to her and we didn't. We liked her writing, but her voice was hard.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:17] You can't do it.

Samantha Shelley [03:44:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. She does give a good formula for processing emotions. It's amazing, like, how much we need to be taught to process emotions, because I think sometimes we think we're processing emotions, but we're really just processing, like, our analyzing of emotions or. Yeah, our stories. And, like, maybe our stories become more sophisticated about why we're feeling what we're feeling, but we're not actually doing, like, the deeper physical work of sitting with the emotions. So I like her for that.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:43] Yeah, that makes sense. And is there a book that stands out to you about Taoism that was, like, something that introduced you to it in a very kind of accessible way? It's okay.

Samantha Shelley [03:44:56] It's just the Dao Te Ching. This is the only book I've read in it. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:59] And then there's Appearance there's the parents. Dao Te Ching too, written by. I don't remember.

John Dehlin [03:45:05] And there's the Dao of Pooh.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:07] And then the Dao Fu.

Samantha Shelley [03:45:08] Yeah, right, I could see that.

John Dehlin [03:45:09] It's like Winnie the Pooh.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:11] That's right.

Samantha Shelley [03:45:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:45:13] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:45:13] Okay. I thought you were just. I thought it sounded very like Zen Cohen, like the Dao of Poo.

John Dehlin [03:45:18] Oh, it's an actual book.

Samantha Shelley [03:45:19] The grossest thing I know. It is like the dao of it

Margi Dehlin [03:45:21] all, where they use.

John Dehlin [03:45:22] Oh, you meant feces.

Samantha Shelley [03:45:23] That's just how I. I know, I know, sorry. I hear that now. I'm just saying it would also make sense.

John Dehlin [03:45:31] The Wisdom of Feces by Samantha Shelley.

Samantha Shelley [03:45:34] Such as End Code. Are you fucking kidding me? The Buddhists would eat that up.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:39] Yeah. And then you had also mentioned kind of nature as being kind of.

Samantha Shelley [03:45:44] Yeah.

What Reparenting Means and How It Works

Margi Dehlin [03:45:45] Okay, let's delve into reparenting for a little minute, if you don't mind. For people that are new to reparenting, we've touched on it a little bit already. But how would you talk about it? Like, no need to get like all technical, but like, what does it mean to you, the idea of reparenting?

Samantha Shelley [03:46:08] Well, I suppose any. I feel like most of our. A lot of our suffering is tied to these like, ideas we have in our mind that we're not good enough, we're not worthy of love, we're not worthy of X, Y, Z.

Samantha Shelley [03:46:24] And those ideas are so deep rooted from childhood because when you're a child and you're going through situations where your needs aren't met, you internalize it as, I don't deserve my needs to be met. That's why this is happening. Because it's too scary for a child to realize, oh, my needs are just not being met because my parents aren't capable of meeting them. It's actually more comforting to believe if I can just strike the right balance here with my behavior or whatever, then they'll be met. It's. It's more hopeful for a child to believe that like they are the problem than to believe that it's just not possible for their needs to be met.

Samantha Shelley [03:46:57] So, you know, there's so many times in life where we're. Where we're triggered in situations that, where like our reaction to the situation is obviously not about the situation, but it's like someone's not. Like the person is making us feel this way. But you know, someone says something and it makes us feel like our worth is being called into question or, you know, we have some failure at Work and our worth is called into question. You know, there's just endless scenarios in life where that happens. And I feel like if you start, like, really paying attention, you can see how most things, there's like that underlying story of like, I'm not good enough, I'm not lovable, blah, blah, blah, instead of just like, this is just the reality of the situation.

Samantha Shelley [03:47:39] And sometimes you do a bad job at work and that's okay, and you're worth doesn't need to be called into question. And like, sometimes people can't show up for you and it's not about you. It's like they're going through stuff and your worth doesn't need to be called into question. So if we start, like, tuning in to what's actually going on in those moments where we feel triggered, AKA we're having like, an emotional reaction that's bigger than it maybe makes sense for us to be. Makes sense for us to be having. Or, you know, we're just like, feeling tender. Like, we're feeling like there's like a vulnerability point there.

Samantha Shelley [03:48:06] We can, we can feel like, emotions rising. If you tune in, you can usually trace it back to like, you know, did I feel this in childhood? Yes. If you're feeling it now, then you likely did. And then, you know, maybe I don't know that you have to bring to mind a specific memory, but just like, trying to sort of like, connect with the child version of you that felt that.

Samantha Shelley [03:48:28] And as a loving, wiser adult who knows that it wasn't because it's. It's easier for us to have sympathy for children than our adult selves. It's easier for us to look at ourselves when we're five and be like, I wasn't bad, actually. My parents just weren't capable of giving me what we need. But it can be harder to do that at, like, 29. Like, I'm just, you know, it's easier to place blame on adults than kids. So if we go back to ourselves in childhood, I think we can, like, act and if, hopefully that can help us access, like, a greater empathy for ourselves.

Samantha Shelley [03:48:58] And also if we, as, you know, the loving, wiser adult can kind of imagine the way this is kind of the way I conceptualize it as. I sort of just imagine, like, what I would say to myself if I could go back to that moment in childhood now as this adult, like, what would I say? What would I want her to hear? That's probably what you need to hear in this adult moment too. And so I think it's just a way to like bring more empathy and gentleness to ourselves.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:25] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:49:25] Not be so hard on ourselves. And it doesn't have to be. I know, like, till Swan uses inner child stuff, it can be co opted is what I'm saying. Like, yeah, false memories are a thing. It's not to me. It's never really about like what memory comes up and, you know, recognize that memory can be an unreliable thing. I just feel like I have to bring this up because we just did that tilts for an episode. But, you know, it's just more about like accessing the feeling. And like if, if a child for any reason felt unloved, unlovable, whatever, you would want to comfort them. You would never be like, well, it's your fault. You would just wouldn't. I think most of us would not be able to say that in good conscience to like a five year old, six year old, seven, you know, whatever.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:09] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:50:10] But then I also think it's good to sort of, you know, just speaking off the top of my head here, but like, as I said, it can be harder to have empathy the older we get. And I think it's also important to go back to like ourselves as teenagers when like I, I think of so many times as a teenager where like I felt so much shame or so unlovable or so bad, and now I look back and I'm like, you were such a baby at that time, but because it's the oldest you'd ever been at that time, you didn't have a concept of that or, you know, I look back on when I got married and I thought I knew everything that I needed to know. And now I'm like, you were such a child and so just always kind of going back and bringing empathy.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:51] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:50:51] To that. And then I also think it can be good to do it in the reverse and to imagine when you're going through a challenging situation, like, what would a wiser, 20 years older version of myself potentially say to me right now? And most of the time it's some version of like, this doesn't matter as much as you think it does. This is not a reason to hate yourself. This is not a reason to like abandon yourself and not love yourself. You know, sometimes that can be useful too.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:15] Yeah. And one of my favorite things about. There are a lot of things I love about it, but one of my favorite things is that it's this idea of we are taking care of ourselves. And I think that's important, especially coming out of Mormonism or you Know, a religion that kind of. There's a lot of enmeshment and codependency where you're looking outside yourself a lot of times for things. It's just a bit. Beautiful way to sort of look at. I. I can take care of myself. And not only, you know, sometimes with our parents, we don't get. We don't get the healing in lifetime. We don't get the parent that acknowledges the pain or the hurt in real time.

Margi Dehlin [03:52:02] We don't get the apology. We don't get the change, the growth, this, that. That moment where you feel seen. We just don't have control over that. But this is something that we can offer independent of our circumstances or. And we're deserving of it. And there's just something really, really, I think, beautiful about that. So.

Samantha Shelley [03:52:22] Yeah, and I think without doing that work because. Because when you're a child, you are supposed to be codependent with your parents. And so when you have difficult emotions, they are supposed to in a way, fix them for you. You know, they're supposed to be a kid container for them and take them on and then help you fix them however they can. But because most of us didn't get that in the ways we need in our adult relationships, we're showing up expecting that, which. That's codependency. And I feel like that's every unhealthy relationship. Like that's the foundation of it. There's usually one. Margaret Paul talks about this a lot in the book, but there's usually one person in a.

Samantha Shelley [03:52:58] In a relationship that feels like they are responsible for caretaking. Caretaking the other person's feelings. And then there's usually one person who feels like the other person is responsible for taking care of their feelings. And sometimes it switches around. But my relationships, there has always been a very clear distinction of who plays what role. So that's been good to. There's so many. Did you. Have you read Inner Bonding?

Margi Dehlin [03:53:20] I just ordered it.

Samantha Shelley [03:53:21] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:21] It came yesterday. I'm excited.

Samantha Shelley [03:53:24] There's a lot of, like, case studies she does in the book and a few of my friends read it and we were all just like, it's crazy how much I relate to the case studies. Like, you can kind of see yourself in every case study. Study.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:33] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:53:33] That was cool.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:34] Yeah. And I love it too, as kind of part of. In relationship. It's kind of as we talk about ending cycles of. Of trauma or, you know, hurting people we love. I love it as part of that because without it, without it, you oftentimes are in this intense, painful state that, as you say, is like, amplified for this situation because it's emotional. It's not rational because it's emotional. And it's deeply embedded in this timeless place and probably connecting to all the times we have felt this way previously. So there's a lot there. For most of us, the whole theory

Samantha Shelley [03:54:17] of unworthiness rests on it.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:18] Yeah. Or feeling ignored or feeling, you know, not listened to or. And it's coming up with a child, though, or a teenager that without it, you would lash out in a way and cause pain and suffering in that moment where if you can just recognize it and give yourself a minute and pause the situation and take care of yourself, then it also protects and kind of inner it. It. What would I say, interrupts those cycles, you know?

Samantha Shelley [03:54:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:51] But your needs are still met, you know, as opposed to sort of, we're going to give this up for my child or we're going to. I don't know. I just think it's a beautiful. It's just a beautiful practice for not only healing ourselves, but it also ends up healing oftentimes our relationships with other people when we do it.

Samantha Shelley [03:55:10] Because it's. I mean, it's hard to be like your most loving, rational self when your amygdala is being hijacked by, like, fear. And, you know, like, your whole sense of worthiness is like, resting on such a small situation because it's like, touching on all this past stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's hard to be our best selves when we're afraid.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:28] Absolutely. So is there. Is there a situation or two that you could think of that's come up for you where re parenting has been helpful just so that people can connect with. I can help too, but just this idea of, like, making it concrete.

Samantha Shelley [03:55:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:45] For people. Like, what does this practice look like for you in real time these days?

Samantha Shelley [03:55:51] Okay. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I mean, hypothetically, let's say I'm in an argument with my boyfriend and it's, you know, over something small. There's some, like, disagreement where I'm not feeling seen in my point. He's not feeling seen. And we're both kind of just trying to pitch our points because we, like, so desperately need to feel seen in our point before we can, you know, come together. That's like a prime example of a time where it's so good to, like, create a little bit of space, look inward and be like, okay, what I'M feeling right now is, you know, unheard.

Samantha Shelley [03:56:26] And why do I feel unheard? Well, I was unheard for, like, my whole childhood. Is this a situation where I'm actually unheard? No. We're both just in this dynamic where we're. We want to be heard for that reason. And so one of us has got a breakup. We could break that chain. So, like, I can just step in and be like, okay, you go first. You tell me, like, what do you.

Samantha Shelley [03:56:47] Sorry. What do you need to feel seen in right now? What am I not hearing? Like, tell me what I'm missing. And then when you give the other person, like, when you soften in that way and give the other person that chance and make it clear that you do care about seeing them, then 99% of the time, they then can hear you just fine. Or I find this with my boyfriend. You know, if one of us can just take the time in a disagreement or can just be the person to sort of, like, break the reactivity and be like, hey, let's. Let's soften for a moment.

Samantha Shelley [03:57:15] What do you. What do I need to hear from you right now? Like, what. What do you need to feel seen in that you feel like I'm not hearing?

Margi Dehlin [03:57:21] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:57:23] Then it's, like, so easy to, like, rectify arguments that, like, in the past would have just been, like, so catastrophic for me.

Margi Dehlin [03:57:30] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:57:30] Now they can just be like, this tiny little thing, and then we can. Can move on and be like, oh, that's interesting that we, like, got triggered over that thing and, like, that created that reaction. And then it's like a bonding experience to have an argument, because it's like you've accessed, you know, you've. You've each accessed a part of your own and each other's trauma. And. And then if you're able to, like, actually see what's happening and, you know, break the reactivity, make each other feel seen.

Margi Dehlin [03:57:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:57:55] Then you can move on from the situation, like, knowing more about each other and, and having, like, a deeper connection. And you've. And, you know, any situation like that where you've been able to, like, take your ego out of it like that. And I feel like the way that you remove the ego is. Is by softening and by, like, validating your own feelings first. It's hard to validate other people's feelings if you don't feel seen. And the easiest way to feel seen is by, like, seeing yourself. If you can't even see your own feelings, you're not going to be able to Communicate them in a way that is effective to others, you know.

Margi Dehlin [03:58:28] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:58:29] Was that a good enough example? Is that concrete enough?

Margi Dehlin [03:58:31] Yeah, that was a great example. Okay, I'll use another example. Recently that has to do with me, maybe, too. So this past weekend, John and I were having a conversation about work on a walk, and we started having, you know, it was clearly like it was breaking down our listening kind of pattern to a point where I was starting to feel like I wasn't smart. And this is like a wound of mine. So I have some things in my childhood where, you know, there were kind of messages around.

Healthy Communication and Emotional Regulation in Relationships

Margi Dehlin [03:59:15] Yeah. Just that I had a hard time. My cognitive abilities were not kind of up to. And so in this conversation, I got really, really triggered. We called timeout, like a little pause because we're working on our skills like that. And. And I was like, hey, I. You know, I don't think this is working. We're not really connecting. And I can tell I'm. I'm in a space. So took a little break, and we were on a walk. So we were like, just parted in winter. And then John kind of found me in the car, and we kind of met up. And what happens? And this is.

Margi Dehlin [03:59:49] I think, the beauty of a reparenting moment was, you know, in that time that we were apart, I was able to identify, what am I feeling? Okay, this is so familiar. I'm feeling, like, what I'm saying. The way I'm experiencing the conversation is my brain doesn't work well that I can't, you know, connect things that are obvious to other people or, you know, whatever. And I was able to kind of show up and remember what that felt like then, being a child and comfort myself and really meet myself where I was emotionally. And anytime I do that, it is really effective for me. Like, it's like a balm.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:29] It really, you know, And I kind of say things that I believe about my brain now, you know, and what it has to offer in being kind of maybe a little bit different in the way it processes.

John Dehlin [04:00:42] What do you say?

Margi Dehlin [04:00:44] Like, I'll say things like, you see things other people don't see. Sometimes it takes you longer to make connections, but you make connections that, you know, they're there, they're important, they are valid, they're, you know, But I literally, like, kind of talk to myself. You deserve to be heard. You deserve. You know, there is nothing wrong with you. You are not at a deficit. Right.

Margi Dehlin [04:01:08] And just really. And by the time John kind of swung around and kind of met me, I was I was back, like, I was fully kind of ready to. And we were able to kind of re. Engage the conversation. And I was able to tell him, here's. Here's what came up for me. I have this wound around this thing. And it was coming up for me in the conversation because I think I was hearing some things that were familiar to me and. And that builds emotional intimacy. So now John has a connection, actually to a piece of me in childhood that the next time we have a conversation, you know, it can flag that and he'll now have a sense of compassion as opposed to, like, what's going on with you?

Margi Dehlin [04:01:53] Like, wow, you seem really. Which without information, oftentimes we do. It's just sort of like, you know, it's just sort of like, wow, you seem really upset for the situation. What's going on? As opposed to like, oh, I see. This is about that. And in partnerships, that's. That's this. It's a beautiful shift that happens to recognize, oh, in the past, I would have looked at that and been like, whatever, he's so touchy. He, like, he always gets this way when. Or whatever, like how our brains just sort of spin thing as opposed to, like, then you see your partner as a child, you're like, oh, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [04:02:32] Because that happened and that's what's going on right here. And you show up in this really loving way with this full perspective of like, I get it, I see what's happening. And you know, so anyway, that's. That is an example of, like, reparenting recently for me.

Samantha Shelley [04:02:49] And I feel like that's a good example of what we resist persists. Because if you hadn't have just confronted that feeling of like, you know, whatever the scheme was from childhood, of I'm not smart enough, then you would have been engaging with John, like, through the lens of, like, trying to, like, prove or disprove that when he maybe isn't even thinking that at all. But then it's like, becoming more true to you as you're feeling the need to defend it. Whereas, like, once you ground yourself in, like, actually, I'm smart and make tons of connections, then it's like you're just secure in that knowledge and it doesn't really matter what John says, you know, it's like, you're not relying on him to, like, validate or invalidate that theory.

Samantha Shelley [04:03:27] But how much do like people it. It's so sad that we don't all, like, get taught this stuff because, like, I just feel like most com. You know, most people have conflict and just like, over the course of, like, an entire relationship where there's gradually just more like, wow, she's, like, really crazy about that. Or like, you know, all the ways that we're hysterical. There's like, people don't know even how to seek the context or that there's a need to seek context. They're just like, that's unreasonable. And it's a personal attack on me that she would be that unreasonable in that situation.

Margi Dehlin [04:03:58] Right. That's right.

Samantha Shelley [04:03:59] And I just feel like people just run their love into the ground. And it's like, if we would just be taught these skills that are like, basic skills that theoretically a couple's therapist could teach anyone.

Margi Dehlin [04:04:09] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:04:10] Like, how different would it be? How many people would not break up? It's like how much love is lost by just like, the ego warring when it doesn't need to. And, like, it's like you're feeling like you have to protect, like, this primary core, wounded part of you that actually, if you can show up for it, doesn't need to be, like, defended in that way. You get what I'm saying?

Margi Dehlin [04:04:31] Absolutely. 100. And it's. It's tremendously healing, you know, without partnership, to just realize when we show up for. In spaces where, you know, in parenting around negative emotions or hard emotions, just showing up with gentleness and comfort for yourself in those times, it's like a rewrite about all that we thought was unlovable that is actually just human. It is just part of being human. And it's this reminder of kind of like, I don't abandon myself. I don't abandon myself when I'm sad or upset. Right. I don't turn to my partner. I sit with myself and I tend to myself first. And I just think it's so beneficial to being an integrated human to just be able to hold all and to pr.

Margi Dehlin [04:05:25] It's a practice, but to kind of just be able to kind of. I'm gonna tend. And here are the ways I tend when I'm really upset. What do I need? Do I need water? Do I need a bath? Do I need to watch a funny show? Do I need to. Yeah. Anyway. Self love.

Samantha Shelley [04:05:41] There we go. And in these, like, rigid social structures, like Mormonism, I feel like where everything is so focused on things just being one specific way all the time, and it's all very, like, external. There's, like, such a pressure to deny your own humanity. And just in society generally, like, in all of the cultures we've all grown up in it's like, because things are just supposed to look this one way and deviation from that is like bad. We have to deny our own humanity and repress it and then it comes out in dysfunctional ways, which actually makes society worse. But in our minds, it's like,

Samantha Shelley [04:06:17] again, it's kind of coming back to that core thing of like, parents think that they just need to like stuff kids into this box and if they can just contain them in that box, then they will have done a good job as parents. But it's actually like the worst thing you can do. And I feel like we do that at a societal level.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:30] We do.

Samantha Shelley [04:06:31] That's why high demand religions like Mormonism drive me mad. Because it's like there's no space for messiness. There's no space for humanness.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:37] Yeah. Or for process.

Samantha Shelley [04:06:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:39] Just process and journey and learning. Yeah. Yeah. Have there been. Have there been kind of blocks or obstacles? Like, what's the hardest part about sort of your rebuilding process? If anything, around emotional, I guess it's around reparenting that self healing work. Like, what's the hardest aspect of this work, would you say?

Samantha Shelley [04:07:07] I think it's. I think it is being vigilant of how these easy sources of dopamine like, hijack our well being. Like, I think about phone addiction, you know, and like there'll just be weeks where like I'll, during the work week spend a lot of time on my phone. And then I just have such a like icky feeling and then I can tell that I have just taken in too much information that week. And so I. And so I just need to be like, still for a lot longer than I would otherwise have. Need to be because I just haven't taken the time to just like our brains need to be bored.

Samantha Shelley [04:07:43] And I think that's a, that's. This is a big theme in my life is figuring out how to just be okay with boredom. Because if we don't. Like I was just getting ready this morning and I was listening to a podcast while getting ready and then I turned it off for a minute and then I was like, oh, it's so nice and quiet in my apartment. Like, this has been available the whole time and I've just like, yeah, chosen this podcast because, you know, it's higher dopamine than silence. So like in my brain it's like, we'll listen to a podcast. But it's like you, you could have just been like sitting here in this like luscious silence the whole time.

Samantha Shelley [04:08:13] But it's so Easy to get into cycles of not choosing that and just wanting the stimulation and. Yeah, even if, like, because I feel like at this point in my life I'm not processing any like giants stuff on the regular, but it's still just like your brain needs downtime to. You know, we're not supposed to consume as much information as we do through our phones.

Samantha Shelley [04:08:34] And so that can really like send you out of whack, you know, especially with like everything that's going on right now. I feel like this is like a key thing we should all be thinking about. It's like, do we have enough time to be processing all the stuff we're taking in, especially when a lot of that stuff is quite negative.

Margi Dehlin [04:08:49] Right.

Samantha Shelley [04:08:49] So, yeah, I'd say my biggest stumbling block or like, you know, challenge or thing that can get in the way of my well being and healthiness is just that, like, it's so easy to fall into. You know, you just have a day where you use your phone more than you should, you scroll for longer than you should, or you just go from one podcast to the next, thinking like, well, I'm learning the whole time, so it's good. But like, is it. Is it the highest good right now? Probably not. Sometimes I just need nothingness.

Margi Dehlin [04:09:18] Yeah, that's so.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:20] And I'm averse to it, I think.

John Dehlin [04:09:23] Not me.

Margi Dehlin [04:09:23] That's very.

John Dehlin [04:09:25] Oh, no, I'm just.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:26] You hate the hustle, go go lifestyle.

John Dehlin [04:09:28] Yeah. And I'm never on my phone.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:30] Yeah, you're a downtime king.

John Dehlin [04:09:34] No, this is a real weakness for me.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:36] All serious inside. This is a big one.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:41] I'm like, if I don't have, if I, If I'm not changing the world, I'm. I'm bored and I'm not living up to my potential. You know what I mean?

Samantha Shelley [04:09:50] Yeah, that's healthy.

John Dehlin [04:09:51] I'm not fun to be around sometimes.

Margi Dehlin [04:09:55] Yeah. It's a major theme in the book we're reading right now for a book group that we're in. It's called the Comfort Crisis.

Samantha Shelley [04:10:03] I've been meaning to read that. I've had it in my like to be ordered list. Oh, should I order?

Margi Dehlin [04:10:08] It's a major thing. Theme in one of the. Is just what's lost. How the brain is kind of set up and then what's lost by just what you say, like this hyper focus, what we're asking our brains to do by focusing on a podcast and then our work and then our. And that it never has. That that's what nature does. Is it allows your brain to just sort of have that relaxed state. That's where creativity comes from. That's where processing and integration from our days leads to, to better sleep. Because if you don't do that during your day, which a lot of us aren't because of hello phone time, then your, your brain is trying to catch up at night.

Margi Dehlin [04:10:49] It has to process some time and so then it keeps you up because it's trying to work double time. But anyway, I really love, I really love what you're. You were saying. So if we were going to kind of look at a snapshot or over a week of kind of like your life now and how, you know, self healing, emotional regulation, loving, you know, yourself, prioritizing yourself as opposed to, let's just say prior to your own transition this way, what are the biggest differences? What would we like, what do you notice about how you're showing up in your life now as opposed to, you know, when you were a little bit more unconscious and let's just say grasping to fix or have the cure or the. Does that make sense?

Daily Habits, Routines, and Ongoing Self-Healing

Samantha Shelley [04:11:43] Yeah, well, I would say I'm a person who doesn't do well with being over scheduled. And so I like to have sort of habits and routines, but not, not too rigid. Like I like to be able to sort of choose between a few different things.

Samantha Shelley [04:11:58] So I think kind of the unhealthy unconscious version of that in the past was like, you know, I'd stay up till 4am on my phone and wake up at 2pm and you know, it was like I took that something that I think is good for me to work with about myself, which is like I generally do better when I have more space in my schedule and can sort of like pick and choose what I do when, you know, there was like a more unhealthy version of that that was just kind of like total hedonism or I don't even know if you could call it that because I didn't feel good.

Samantha Shelley [04:12:29] But like, you know, just like no discipline, I guess I've a big piece has been learning like what feels like healthy, happy discipline as opposed to, you know, just kind of like just doing nothing or, you know, not.

Samantha Shelley [04:12:46] It's like another thing is in the past I would feel, let's say depressed or anxious, not doing well. And I'd be so focused on the storylines my brain was telling around that and like believing that they were the primary thing rather than just like I'm feeling depressed and this is the story my brain is writing around it because especially as women, I mean, there's like, so many hormonal fluctuations throughout the month that, like, men don't experience that there are just going to be days in your cycle where you feel depressed, like, compared to the rest of the month.

Samantha Shelley [04:13:16] And so now I'm a lot better at kind of sensing what I need rather than kind of just descending into it further by just, like, ruminating. I just bought so fully into my storylines around anxiety and depression before, whereas now I'm like, okay, maybe you need to go do some movement for 30 minutes or.

Samantha Shelley [04:13:34] But maybe you don't. Maybe, you know, it's. I feel like now I'm very good at, like, feeling out what I need and knowing the difference between, like, for example, sometimes it's good to eat, like, a meal that doesn't have any real nutritional value because it's, like, good for your soul. But then sometimes you're doing that in a way that's like, I think this is actually going to make you feel worse. And, like, that's not the move right now. You know, I feel like I've got a lot better at doing discerning between, like, the healthy and unhealthy versions of kind of similar things, if that makes sense.

Samantha Shelley [04:14:04] And, like, yeah, balance has just become a bigger theme, you know, again, it's like, instead of in the past, I might embark on, like, this intense exercise campaign for two weeks now. It's just like a natural, gentle part of my routine.

Margi Dehlin [04:14:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:14:20] So I'd say now there's a lot more. Just gentleness across the board and, like, how I treat myself in life. What else is different? I mean, now I know when I'm feeling emotion. I mean, sometimes you distract yourself from painful emotions and that just is what it is. But now there's, like, at least awareness of when that's happening and when I have difficult emotions. I now know that, you know, XYZ is not going to be the. These distractions are not going to fix the problem. It's not. Your goal isn't to just run away from it and distract yourself until you forget about it and then just kind of have it live lurking somewhere that you don't want to access.

Margi Dehlin [04:14:57] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:14:57] Now I'm able to just kind of confront stuff head on, which is nice. And it saves you a lot of time.

Margi Dehlin [04:15:03] It does, because it's just going to

Samantha Shelley [04:15:05] come out anyway in, like, more annoying ways.

Margi Dehlin [04:15:07] Yeah, that's right.

Samantha Shelley [04:15:10] What else. What else can you think of, like, in answering that question, like, for yourself,

John Dehlin [04:15:21] She turns the tables back on Margi.

Samantha Shelley [04:15:24] I'm curious.

Margi Dehlin [04:15:26] Well, also. Well, I was looking at some of the things also that you. You wrote and you were talking about the pendulum swings and kind of trying to find the balance point. Right. Of that talk about what about seasons. What is it about seasons that you find kind of in. In informing how you show up? Because that was something that came up.

Samantha Shelley [04:15:47] Okay. Yeah. I. I love the concept of inhale, exhale and seasons. And what's inhale?

Margi Dehlin [04:15:56] Exhale.

Samantha Shelley [04:15:57] You know, there's times in your life. Okay. For example, there's times in my work life where I'm very high output. You know, I just want to be producing a lot, and that's fun for me and I'm energized to do it. And then there's other times where you just need to be, like, taking in inputs. I feel like, especially if you have sort of a creative career, that's important, but I really think it's important for everyone. Everything. You can't be, like, on. In every area of life all the time.

Margi Dehlin [04:16:24] It's like perpetual summer.

Samantha Shelley [04:16:26] Yeah. Like, you have to. I like the idea of, like, in the winter, you know, like, hygge is a concept we both love of, like, you know, kind of nesting in the winter and reading and slowing down and focusing on, you know, just like nourishing yourself in the ways that you can, being warm and then allowing summer to be, you know, maybe a bit more like all over the place, over scheduling because, like, the sun's out the whole time and it makes more sense and you feel good and maybe you're like, more booked and busy in the summer because that's when you feel the most vibrant.

Samantha Shelley [04:16:57] Just kind of like recognizing. Whereas in the past, I would kind of think, oh, something's wrong with me because I'm. It's winter and I, like, don't want to do anything. And it's nice to be able to honor. Instead of being so scared that something good has gone away forever and you've done something to make it go away and you need to try and claw that habit back. Just recognize, like, well, clearly that habit is not, like, taking priority right now, and that's okay. And with some things, maybe you do need to reprioritize it. You know, if I just, like, totally stopped moving for two weeks, I might be concerned. But, like, yeah, generally we can trust ourselves to just do the things that feel good and that make sense.

Margi Dehlin [04:17:34] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:17:34] And I feel, I mean, like, working with your menstrual cycle is another good example. Like, there are days in the month where it just doesn't make sense to have a lot scheduled. It just makes much more sense to, like, rest, recuperate. And then there are other times where you're, you know, it's better to have more things planned, and you're gonna probably thrive more in that. So I feel like everything in life is like that. And if I found myself in the past, like, if I had something good that I was good that I was doing for a period of time, if I stopped, I would feel this, like, weird guilt and like, oh, I gotta get back to that.

Samantha Shelley [04:18:06] Instead of just, like, you know, things can ebb and flow. And the older I get, the more I realize that it is an ebb and flow and things that you have exhaled, you will inhale again. So it's weird language, but I love that. No, you know, like, you can trust, like, the flow of everything. And you can.

Margi Dehlin [04:18:23] And the flow.

Samantha Shelley [04:18:24] Because I feel like so much of our culture, especially, it all feels so relevant when talking about, like, energy and, like, the energy we have for different things because we have such a hustle culture. It's so nice to. Yeah. Just, like, sit with whatever natural energy you have and, like, allow that to be your output. And it's like, what good is it to be stressing out that you're not producing more when you do not have the energy to produce more? Like, do you want to try and force yourself? Like, what will the quality of that production and be, like, probably questionable.

Margi Dehlin [04:18:53] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:18:54] And, like, is that the way that you want to approach your work or your life?

Margi Dehlin [04:18:57] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:18:58] So. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:18:58] Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I hear a little Taoism in that, too, because it's kind of trusting.

Samantha Shelley [04:19:05] Oh, yeah. And you mentioned the pendulum. I like that metaphor as well. That's in daoism of. And this also feels like it relates to my whole theory of, like, we can trust the psyche to figure out what it needs. Like, sometimes we have to swing hard in one direction. Like, we have to go all in on a marriage to realize that what we actually want is less commitment and more, like, joyful, daily choosing of a relationship.

Margi Dehlin [04:19:33] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [04:19:34] And so it's like going to one and. And we can. We don't even need to. I think there's. There's a case to be made for just, like, relaxing about everything. Because if you go to extreme, if it is too extreme, and you're, like, a person who's, like, observing, like, what's happening to you, which is. Which is kind of, like, the main thing, then you're going to notice that it's extreme and you're going to be able to balance it out and like, you know, after you have a period of like intense productivity, you're probably going to want to swing back into intense apathy, which is a case.

Samantha Shelley [04:20:03] Which makes the case for like, let's say with movement. How about we just try and do something that's more in the middle that we can do all the time? Because movement is an example of something we probably want to try and do like every day of our lives, ideally in some form. So doesn't it make more sense to do a more kind of in the middle thing than to like, oscillate between these extremes, you know?

Margi Dehlin [04:20:23] Yeah, yep, yep. A hundred percent. And how about. Did you want to say something too about, you know, here you've made all these shifts and you know, you've done a lot of work, I think, and how you are showing up for yourself. Do you want to say something about your partner that you've been with and how that's now affected you in relationship too and what you've created together with that being kind of the root?

Wholeness, New Relationships, and Closing Reflections

Samantha Shelley [04:20:52] Yeah, it was. It's been so nice, like entering into a relationship not from a place of like, I'm deficient and need to be made whole, but like, I'm whole. And does this person, like, align with that wholeness and are they whole in the ways that they need to be whole?

Samantha Shelley [04:21:07] And just like, instead of, you know, looking for someone to fit into this like, prescribed role of what I think a relationship should be, which like in Mormonism is like full on marriage for eternity, just having this mindset of like, do I want to spend this evening with this person? Yes. And then just being able to like build a relationship truly line upon line, instead of like, do they tickle these boxes for what I'm looking for?

Samantha Shelley [04:21:32] Can I stuff it into this, you know, overarching box? I'm trying to like, have my relationship be like, that just is such a unhelpful, unhealthy model. But being able to take things one step at a time and know that like, I'm okay on my own. So this, if this is not adding to my life, then it's not worth it. And that has like, built something so much more beautiful and strong and amazing and joyful. Then you know this idea that you need to find like an eternal or even just like lifelong partner.

Margi Dehlin [04:22:09] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:22:09] Right off the bat, it's like the, the lack of a need for commitment has facilitated a much stronger bond and probably, you know, More longevity. Like, this relationship is like twice the length that my marriage was.

Margi Dehlin [04:22:22] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:22:22] And has been happy the whole time. It is really like night and day. It feels like that, that it's like child, adult, like just complete. It's like hard to relate to the. To that. It makes me sad that like we again, that we don't get taught how to communicate, how to connect to ourselves, how to like. I didn't know anything about being in relationship because I was not connected to myself.

Margi Dehlin [04:22:45] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:22:45] And yet I was taught by Mormonism that I was ready to be in an eternal marriage And I was 22. People get married at 18, you know.

Margi Dehlin [04:22:53] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:22:54] So that was a lot.

Margi Dehlin [04:22:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:22:57] What else could I say about that? I don't know. It's just good.

Margi Dehlin [04:23:00] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:23:00] I mean, when you're. When you're both committed to like self care and showing up for yourself, like, it makes a huge difference. And again, it's like if you have disagreements or you get in arguments, fights. I hate the word fights. It always sounds so violent for conflict. But yeah, if you get into conflict, it's an opportunity for deeper connection rather than this kind of like, like, you know, like band aid fix and then just like kind of moving on, not talking about it again. It's like we've actually like.

Margi Dehlin [04:23:26] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:23:27] Deepened our bond through those triggers.

Margi Dehlin [04:23:30] Yeah. Yeah. Totally different quality to relationship.

Samantha Shelley [04:23:36] Yeah. It's like a different thing. It's like that was like the artificial version of it, like just. It was a committed relationship externally, but it was like, so it was like built on a house of sand.

Margi Dehlin [04:23:50] Such a good point. Such a good point. Yeah. Well, we appreciate you, Samantha, for being here. Thank you for sharing. Is there anything, any other kind of things you would like to leave with people listening with regard to. It can be resources, it can be things that have been just. You want to leave about self healing or the process of it or. Or do you feel kind of like you've. You've kind of said it all at this point for the day.

Samantha Shelley [04:24:23] I think the main thing is just like, be gentle with yourself and. And like the things that are gonna make the biggest difference, I think in most of our lives again are like the 7% increments, not the 100, the 50, you know, the sweeping giant changes. Like most of the things we need to do to improve our lives are like small maybe habits or mindsets or like things we kind of feel that we need to be learning about or diving into deeper.

Margi Dehlin [04:24:50] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:24:51] And like kind of just take the pressure off to have this, like, I don't know, to have these giant experiences or a theophany. What's that?

John Dehlin [04:25:03] That's how smart people describe Joseph Smith's first vision. Some huge vision from God, you know?

Samantha Shelley [04:25:08] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [04:25:09] No, no, theophanies.

Samantha Shelley [04:25:11] No. I mean they do happen along the way, but if you seek them, they won't come.

John Dehlin [04:25:15] You're saying theophanies happened?

Samantha Shelley [04:25:18] Well, wait, what's the definition again?

John Dehlin [04:25:21] This is from God, basically.

Samantha Shelley [04:25:22] Well, it can be God in the kind of oneness I am, that I am sense. Sure. Yeah. They can happen.

John Dehlin [04:25:28] Yeah. Yeah. 7%. Didn't Dan Harris write 7% happier?

Samantha Shelley [04:25:36] I'm being more conservative. You'll notice it's very British.

John Dehlin [04:25:39] Very British.

Samantha Shelley [04:25:40] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [04:25:42] Understated. More understated. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for so fully showing up. Thank you for this interview today. I really personally just deeply connect with so much of your experience and also, you know, your, your rebuilding and your resources and what you've come to and. Yeah, I just love that you're in the world really, because I do feel like you have a unique way of being in the world, of showing up in the world and in kind of spreading wisdom and love in the world. It's unique. And so I have just. It's been a gift to hear more of your story. I did not know much about you or your story, so just personally it's been a real gift to hear it. So thank you.

Samantha Shelley [04:26:39] Thank you. You've been the perfect host and such a safe container.

Margi Dehlin [04:26:44] Oh, thank you.

Coaching Work and How to Connect with Samantha

John Dehlin [04:26:45] Tell us about your Spotify.

Samantha Shelley [04:26:46] Oh, also I feel all the same things about you and admire you so deeply and everything that you. I see you say publicly I just resonate with a lot.

Margi Dehlin [04:26:55] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [04:26:57] Tell us about your Spotify really quick.

Samantha Shelley [04:26:59] My Spotify?

John Dehlin [04:27:01] You're an artist. You're a recording artist.

Margi Dehlin [04:27:03] Your music, you do have a voice like no other.

Samantha Shelley [04:27:07] My name is Samantha Shelley on Spotify.

John Dehlin [04:27:10] And what do you do there?

Samantha Shelley [04:27:13] Well, there are songs I have sung beautiful that are on there.

John Dehlin [04:27:17] You're a post mormon British pop queen basically. No.

Samantha Shelley [04:27:20] Yeah. You know, I think even princess would be pushing it in the pop realm. Like a little court jester that's like on the edge of being fired but he's like just scraping by.

John Dehlin [04:27:30] Epic tunes. Epic tunes.

Samantha Shelley [04:27:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:27:32] Really strong. Really.

John Dehlin [04:27:34] And your coaching website, one more time. SamanthShelleCoaching.com and that's Shelley with an EY. And what type of coaching do you do?

Samantha Shelley [04:27:44] I call it intentional living coaching. I feel like it's all very gentle and very much helping people access, you know, what do you want right now? Like, what do. What do you need to process? What do you feel like you need to be supported in. In terms of, like, building habits? A lot of it is, like, deep listening, you know, and like, I guess just helping people draft, like, new, more helpful narratives about themselves in life. And usually, like, people already know what they want that to be. And, like. And I guess it's helping people, like, tap into their own wisdom that is there if you make the space for it.

John Dehlin [04:28:20] Yeah. I highly recommend. And Self on the Shelf continues. Right?

Samantha Shelley [04:28:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:28:24] Which is what, for those who don't

Samantha Shelley [04:28:26] know, it's a YouTube channel.

John Dehlin [04:28:27] And on what?

Samantha Shelley [04:28:30] What do you mean?

John Dehlin [04:28:30] What's it about?

Samantha Shelley [04:28:31] Oh, it's. Well, it. It's an ex Mormon channel, I suppose, but right now we're reading a maga Hat romance novel.

Margi Dehlin [04:28:38] Ooh.

Samantha Shelley [04:28:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:28:40] Fun. All right.

Samantha Shelley [04:28:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:28:42] Well, we consider you a dear friend and someone we look up to, even though we're old fogies.

Samantha Shelley [04:28:49] That is amazing for me, right, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [04:28:54] You got it, John and Margi, you're

John Dehlin [04:28:55] a wonderful co host. I love to just sit back and relax and eat blow pops while you do the.

Samantha Shelley [04:28:59] John literally was eating a blow pop while I'm talking about the depths of my eating. Or did you have three?

John Dehlin [04:29:05] I had two.

Margi Dehlin [04:29:06] Samantha's like, going deep, and John's like, don't lollipop.

John Dehlin [04:29:09] Shame me.

Samantha Shelley [04:29:10] You don't see a lot a grown man eating a blow pop during a mic podcast. Keep.

Margi Dehlin [04:29:15] Keep at it.

Samantha Shelley [04:29:16] Yeah. It's very. Inner child bonding. I love it.

Margi Dehlin [04:29:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:20] Thank you. All right. Thanks, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [04:29:23] Thank you, John. Thank you, Samantha.

John Dehlin [04:29:25] Thanks, Sammy. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.