Welcome and Introducing Maven

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1596

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is April 15, 2022, and today we are super excited to have with us in studio the Maven. Hey, Maven.

Maven [00:00:16] Hi, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] I mean, I guess I shouldn't assume that everybody knows who Maven is. Maven is an amazing human, but she has gained much notoriety over the past few months as being, I don't know, a producer, co host of Mormonism Live with Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon. Is that right?

Maven [00:00:35] I wouldn't say co host, but maybe occasional guest host.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] Yeah, but it just is a. Let's just say an important part of the team influence. Yeah, part of the team, but also an important voice on the Mormon Post Mormon Internet right now.

Maven [00:00:51] Well, thank you. Yeah, I feel like that seems a bit high, but I appreciate it and people love you.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] So we're interviewing you and we're going to hear your Mormon story. How does that sound?

Maven [00:01:01] I feel really nervous, like for having even shared it already a little bit on Mormonism Live, but I am happy to be here. So this will be the in depth version for sure.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] Yeah. Okay. Well, we're excited to have you and of course, we're super grateful to have in studio with this Jen running sound and video and jumping in with insight here and there and wisdom. Hey, Jen.

Maven [00:01:22] Hi. Hi, everyone. Happy to be here today with Maven.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Thanks for joining us. So for those of you who have no idea who Maven is and don't know if you should or shouldn't care, let me just introduce some of the themes that we'll be covering today because every. Well, every story matters and every story is interesting, but there's a lot here, I think that will be important to important subsections of my audience. So there's. And maybe you can, you can add here, there's being raised in a very ultra, kind of an ultra orthodox Mormon home. Maybe not quite the prepper, but definitely the Ezra Taft Benson, Bruce R. McConkie type Mormonism. There are issues around sexuality and asexuality, which will probably come into play later, but that's important. There are issues around being a single young adult and even a single woman in her 20s to even early 30s within the church. Of course, there's faith crisis issues, intellectual awakenings, coming into your own, losing yourself and maybe finding yourself as a Mormon post Mormon woman. There's the topic of poverty and just, you know, to what extent does the church following the gospel lead to prosperity versus not. What are some of the other major themes you would want people to know.

Maven [00:02:34] I think you. I think you hit all the big ones. That was really great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] Yeah. All right. And then just Maven's just, I think, a really super thoughtful, wise human, so that as well. So thank you. Should we do it?

Maven [00:02:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Should we jump in? I guess we should say Maven isn't your real name.

Maven [00:02:52] It is not, if anyone was wondering. No, it's a moniker, kind of like rfm, and it's something I've become attached to. So I think, just like most people, it's easy to find out who RFM is, but he still goes by that, and I still call him that even though I know his name. I think I will continue to go by Maven in this space. I know perpetually, maybe.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] And then what generation do you qualify as? Are you millennial?

Maven [00:03:15] Yes, I'm millennial. I am on the early end of it. So I heard someone on the radio call it geriatric millennial. I don't know if I appreciated that. Really. Yeah, I heard a moniker for people like me because my youngest brother is 10 years younger than me. He's also a millennial, but his growing up was very, very different from mine as far as technology goes. And so there's a subsection, and it was after the. Oh, the Oregon Trail game. It's like an Oregon Trail Millennial. And that's the people who know that, like, they will know exactly where I'm at. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] So a little bit of millennial vibes in this episode as well. All right. Where does your Mormon story begin? Let's jump in.

Maven's Family Background and Upbringing

Maven [00:04:01] All right, so usually we start with parents and family, right?

John Dehlin [00:04:05] Yeah.

Maven [00:04:06] So I, on both sides of my family, go back to the beginning of Mormonism. Not any real big names that I'm aware of, so no big connections to Salt Lake City or anything there. But I. One of. I know on my father's side, we have ancestry joining the church in England and coming over there, and some Scandinavian ancestry as well. So it's actually six generations going back or eight generations on my mother's side because the women all married younger, whereas it's six generations back on my father's side. Makes sense. So we've been in it. Been in Utah for a while. My. My mother's family, her growing up was not the traditional Mormon upbringing at all. Even though her grandparents were lds, they were kind of, I guess, the. The Jack Mormon, you know, farmer types. My great grandpa chewed tobacco. But they still had the belief in Utah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is, like, in the Great Basin. Area up in that corner of the state. So that's where that side of the family was. But they still, they still had the belief and they were still Mormon. But my, my grandparents, my mother's parents were the rebels. So they did not follow it. They had a civil marriage. It was pretty rocky. And so my mother's upbringing was actually very sad and very tragic in a lot of ways. My, what town is this? This is in Roosevelt, Utah, which for

John Dehlin [00:05:36] those who don't know Utah at all, it's near Vernal.

Maven [00:05:38] It's where, I guess the corner of Utah that is bordering Colorado and Wyoming. But for my mother's parents, I know that my grandmother was a drunk. She was very neglectful. My mother is the oldest daughter in her family, so she was kind of the mother for her younger siblings. And she had a younger brother that was two years younger than her. And I know that he was sometimes really physical with her. Just he, their parents, my grandparents divorced. So I never actually recall meeting my grandfather. I know he drank a lot too, so he just was never really part of my life or part of hers. I think maybe around eight years old, I think might have been when that happened. So yeah, so it was just her and my grandmother who was just not there as a parent.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] So your maternal grandparents were kind of the Mormon cautionary tales of what not to do?

Maven [00:06:36] Yeah, basically.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] And I'm guessing that's going to shape your mom.

Maven [00:06:39] Definitely, definitely did. It was a very rough childhood for her. And I know that she had to go to bars to get my grandmother and bring her home sometimes, things like that. And so it makes sense, I think for a lot of things where she went. And like I said, I know her little brother would kind of beat her up sometimes. I don't know how bad it was. I just know it wasn't a good relationship. So for my mother, she really was. She went to church. I completely understand how that would be a haven for her probably. And she was really looking for a happy family and for a knight in shining armor like to come and rescue her and take her off to the castle. And the Mormon version of that is a priesthood holding worthy rm, you know, who would take her to the temple for a celestial marriage like her parents never had. And then my father's family, he's the oldest child in his family also. His mother was my grandfather's second marriage. And my father grew up on kind of a homestead. I know they had some gardening and some chickens and things like that. And it was kind of a bit more rambunctious out in the weeds kind of a lifestyle. He did serve a mission. He's the only one of his brothers to do so. And. And it was back just like there's a really short period of time where they were 18 months. So that's when my parents.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Early 80s.

Maven [00:08:03] Yeah. And so when he came back, I think his family had moved to Roosevelt at that point. And so that's where he and my mother met when he was a fresh rm. And so I don't know a whole lot about their courtship other than I think it's just a pretty typical Mormon one. You know, my mom met the RM and they got married in the Jordan River Temple. And then I came along just about nine months later. So. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] And that marriage didn't last.

Maven [00:08:34] It didn't so well. So I came along and then I got a little brother two years later, similar to my mother. And it was shortly after that that they divorced.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] And so already your mom's Mormon dream isn't material.

Maven [00:08:48] It's already not working out. Yeah, that's hard. It is hard because I. And I know, I mean, I was given a lot of the same promises. I know she was. The messaging. A lot of it is the same, like, year after year and generation after generation. But I know the messaging I got was that you like, for marriages to be good and for the best chance to be successful, you need to have a temple marriage and that you were less likely to have a good marriage if it wasn't a temple marriage. So I'm certain that that's also what she was thinking. Like, if I. If you. If you do the things, you get the blessings that are promised, that's the constant thing there. So. Yeah, so it's already not working out again. I was really, really young then. I do have some memories of that. I do remember, like, I remember my dad not being there and being confused about that. I remember having to meet up with him, you know, for weekends and things like that. And he had this really, like, unique van that didn't have. He used for work, I think, and it didn't have seat belts, but I mean, it was like the late 80s, early 90s, so, like, seatbelts, you know, those are optional anyway, you know, and my dad joined the military during that time, I think, because of, like, needing to pay child support and I think for the health insurance and things like that.

Parents' Marriage and Early Family Life

John Dehlin [00:10:01] Did you ever find out what went wrong in the marriage? Has that been talked or. And you don't have to share it also, if it's.

Maven [00:10:07] I mean, I've seen the same stuff that happened later, but, like. Yeah. So I guess if I'm skipping ahead, the divorce didn't work out either. Oh, yeah. So they. So they actually remarried. So the divorce was only about a year. And then they remarried each other. They had a civil wedding. And so I do remember actually being part of that. I think I was a flower girl in. It was just a chapel wedding because they hadn't annulled the ceiling at that point. Oh, yeah. So the ceiling was still in place. So they just did a civil ceremony to kind of recommit, I guess so. So then we were a military family, so.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] Oh, so your dad stayed. Your dad.

Maven [00:10:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Yeah.

Maven [00:10:47] Okay. Okay. And I think that's why, honestly, you know, they. They remarried. I think. I think that was my dad's primary motivation in the. In remarrying, was to stay connected to the kids. Yeah. Yeah. Was to. To be the main person over us, the main guy for us. So I. I appreciate that. Yeah. So we started to move around a lot. And so this is like me getting out of Utah and having a lot more experiences, I think, than a lot of people who are raised here do. And so I think we started out in Texas. I think that was Fort Hood. Again, I was really, really young, so I don't remember a lot of these things. We were in North Carolina for a little bit. That was in Fort Bragg. And then we ended up over in Germany, and that's where I was when I was 18. And I got baptized in Texas and North Carolina. One thing for sure was a lot more racial diversity than there is in Utah. And so that was all really very normal to me. When I'm starting to go to school, like kindergarten, first grade, et cetera, a lot of the neighborhoods I was in, it was like my family would be the only white family on the block. And so as I was getting older, and I loved to read. I was a voracious reader, and I. I loved reading about brave people doing brave things. So part of that would include kind of Mormon stuff like Joseph Smith, I thought was a hero, and early pioneers, the sacrifices they made. But also, like early women, Florence Nightingale, Amelia Earhart, Juliet Gordon, Lois, who started Girl Scouts. I wasn't Girl Scouts. Did the. Selling the cookies and things. All the things.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] Isn't Girl Scouts great?

Maven [00:12:27] It is, yeah. Very empowering.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] Yeah.

Maven [00:12:30] Which is why they didn't do that when they had Scouts for the boys. But I used to wonder, yeah, that's

John Dehlin [00:12:35] why the church didn't adopt it.

Maven [00:12:38] I did wonder when I was a teen. Like, I mean, I used to be in Girl Scouts. How come we're not in it now? Like, why is young women. Why do the boys have scouts and the young women? But I guess we're getting ahead a little bit. But. But that's why I figured it out now. It is very empowering. They. They like to tell you that, you know, girls can do anything. And. And I really love these messages. And again, not just women, but also the racial stuff. So I really love learning about civil rights. The Underground Railroad was a huge interest of mine for a long time. I loved Harriet Tubman. I thought she was so brave because she got herself out, but she risked that freedom. Like, she worked so hard to get. To keep coming back and get more people out. And I just thought, like, that was so cool. And like, the Holocaust. I read, you know, I. Tons of stuff on that. People who were hiding Jews away. And I just thought, like, you know, this was really, like, the hiding place. I remember that was one of the stories I read. Anyway, so I'm reading all this kind of stuff, and I'm just so inspired by all of these people. And at the time, I really liked to think, you know, if I lived in these times, if I was there, I would do the same thing. Like, I would be brave and I would stand for. For what's right, you know, for. For these people. And. But this is all in the past. I live in a day and age now where, like, sexism doesn't exist anymore and racism doesn't exist. Like, those have all been solved, you know? What do you mean? Like, I. Honestly.

Race, Religion, and Growing Up Mormon

John Dehlin [00:14:00] That was the mentality.

Maven [00:14:01] That was the mentality growing up. I'm reading about stuff from the past. People used to think, like, women and black people weren't smart enough to go to college or, like, have these kinds of professions. But we know that's silly now. So now, like, and, you know, women and black people can vote and they didn't used to. And we can own property now and we didn't used to. Yeah, right. Like, yeah, I live in the best era ever. Everything's been fixed. Everything's great.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] Okay.

Maven [00:14:24] For a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] So,

Maven [00:14:27] yeah, so I guess we can go into, like, where that started to fall apart.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] Jen showing her be a minister.

Maven [00:14:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Shout out to black menaces.

Maven [00:14:35] Right. I mean, because. Because we're a military family. I like, in our military wards and stuff, they were. There were a lot of black families. So that. That was very normal to me. And I didn't know about anything about the church's. Past racism. And it was, I was in a ward that I said something once. The church isn't racist. I don't remember who it was I was talking to. I just remember it was a black man. He might not have been in the ward, but he might have been on the base but knew that we were Mormon. And I said something again in my third grade naivety. My church isn't racist. And I remember his face just being like, whatever you say. And I was just like, what is he talking about? So I just know it was later that I learned about it and it bothered me. But unfortunately at the time I really, really trusted in the idea of profits. And so I did believe the idea that the pre existence that there was something that they had done. But again, I just made myself say it's okay because that was in the past and everything's equal now. So I don't have to really think about that much. But it was definitely a disappointment to learn. But as we'll see over and over again, if there's a conflict between my like personal conscience or values and the church, I felt like I needed to follow the church.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] The church, yeah.

Maven [00:16:00] And so I feel like that's where like pieces of me kind of over time I started kind of like leaving behind unknowingly to myself at the time. So I think, well, I want to talk, I guess a little bit about our family dynamics with me and my little brother. He had a lot of behavioral issues when he was younger and I think just, I mean he was very accident prone, but he also had a lot of anger issues. And I think, I mean just being in the military, it's. And my mother worked too. But we were always like just always struggling. We were always like a little bit lower, I mean socioeconomic economically. And so sometimes we would be like the family. Like if you do. Oh, what is it, like the Christmas thing, like sub for Santa, like that kind of stuff. Like I would be. We would be that family.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] Sometimes they would be chosen to receive the gifts that other people donated to.

Maven [00:17:01] Correct? Yeah, yeah. I mean and not, not like every single year, but just occasionally like that, that would be us. And so there was always just. But my parents worked really hard, you know, and of course they pay tithing because can't afford not to know. We really need those blessings a lot. So yeah, so that's what we did. And so I think like with my brother, I mean there just wasn't a lot of, I think financial resources or just like mental and energy resources sometimes to maybe Deal with it in the best way. So he's kind of a wild child. They did try to put him in sports and things like that, but he was just, like, just all over me a lot of the times. I bore, like, the brunt of most of his physical. Just aggression or hyperactivity, if that makes sense. And anger. This is just one really quick story. I just remember we were at a kid's birthday party, and my brother, he was only four. He was a small kid. We're a small family, all of us. But the kid in front of him, someone had kind of backed up. So this kid took a step back and he stepped on my brother's foot. I mean, it was very light. It wasn't a stomp or anything. But my brother, it hurt him or offended him. I don't know. He said, ow. He comes around in front of the kid that just accidentally stepped back on him, and he's just stomping on this kid's foot, like, several times over just to pay him back for this accident that happened. And that's just kind of like, this is an example of kind of how it was like he could get out of control really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] Disproportionate responses.

Maven [00:18:24] Yeah. Yeah. And so by comparison to that, I was the good kid. So I kind of saw myself as the Nephite and kind of like my brother as a bit of the layman in Lemuel. We are definitely very different in that regard. Like I said, I loved reading. I loved school. I loved church. I loved all these things. I felt really grown up when I could finally read enough to be able to read the Book of Mormon. Like, I would start even if I didn't always understand it. I just. I just really liked that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:18:55] By what age were you reading the Book of Mormon? Are you guessing?

Maven [00:18:57] I mean, like, for sure, by 8. I know I was trying to. I was reading, like, in family home meeting or, like, scripture study, we would do it, but possibly earlier, I learned to read pretty young. And so that was another thing. Like, I was. I was told all the time that I was smart, I think, because of the reading and stuff, but I actually had really middling grades in school. And this comes out later, but I just was recently diagnosed with ADHD just a couple years ago. And so, like, all this time, it just made so many things make so much more sense, but it often is lost on girls because it's not as outwardly expressive as it can be for boys. A lot of it's internal and. And so, yeah, so I did really struggle keeping up on assignments and things like that, but. But I did well testing, so. And that's another reason if you do well in school, which is typically one of the big indicators if you're not doing well in school. So the few that do well also will often get missed. So I think that was part of that. Adds to some of my struggles that happen later, just not knowing that.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] So, yeah, I've noticed a lot of post Mormon women identifying ADHD later in their life. So Mindy Gledhill has come out about that. Stephanie Purcell and Cara. Cara Burrell. Yeah, all of them.

Maven [00:20:15] I wondered about her. Like, there were some tiktoks she did where I was like. Because once I found out about it, I did this big deep dive research and then I've been like armchair diagnosing people. But I think part of it is just our generation, like, they just weren't looking for it when we were that age, you know? And again, like, if we were doing okay, you know, if it's not causing significant duress to the adults in your life, then you get missed, you know, so. Yeah, but the indicators were definitely there. So I wanted to talk about. I mean, early on, my parents did pretty good with fhe and which is family home evening, doing a. Like a lesson once a week to talk about gospel topics or do something fun. It would be back and forth and scripture study and family prayer. Prayer we were pretty consistent with, like in the evenings. And then scripture study was a bit more hit and miss, but I still loved doing it. And I remember feeling close to my family when we did it. And I knew that's like, what we were supposed to do. The lesson that I remember the most that had a really, really big impact on me was actually a lesson from the Doctrine and Covenants. And I forget which section it is, but it's where Joseph Smith is talking about how to tell a true messenger from a false one. Right. And so the whole handshake thing, you know, the handshake test.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] And so for those who don't know this, you know, do you remember what it is?

Maven [00:21:34] Yeah, yeah. So I mean, so the idea is

John Dehlin [00:21:37] that there are evil malignant spirits running around as angels who look like normal humans.

Maven [00:21:45] You can't be angels of light, but

John Dehlin [00:21:46] you can't know whether they're real humans or not. And then if they're an angel, are they a good angel or a bad angel? Because Satan can be sneaky.

Maven [00:21:54] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] So Joseph Smith gives us a way to know. Right. In the Doctrine and Covenants, as scripture.

Maven [00:22:01] Yes. And so it's the handshake test. And so basically, the way I understand, if I remember it correctly, is there's two types of messengers of good ones that you could get. So you could get a resurrected being which would have a physical body. So if you ask to shake their hand, they will shake your hand and you will physically feel it because they have a resurrected body. Now you could also get a messenger that's maybe like somebody that's not resurrected. A family member even is what I understood. Like, if you had a grandparent or an ancestor come to give you something, then you could ask them to shake their hand. But because they don't have a physical body, they would know that you wouldn't feel it. So they would refuse to shake your hand, even though the spirit is also made of matter. So they could physically hold onto your hand, but you just wouldn't feel it and you wouldn't know. So they would refuse. But a devil or Satan appearing as an angel would do it.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Would go to shake, right?

Maven [00:22:59] So if you shake the hand and you don't feel anything, like that would be.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Because they can't not deceive. So they would go to shake the hand, you would go to grab the hand, and you wouldn't feel it.

Maven [00:23:08] And that's how you know it's a bad one.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] And that's how you know if an evil, malignant spirit is trying to deceive you.

Maven [00:23:15] Right?

John Dehlin [00:23:16] They're not smart enough to actually know the rule and then, like, do the opposite somehow they can't, right?

Maven [00:23:21] And I take. I'm a very, very little. I'm a kid. I was 8 or 9. So all of this stuff I think is great. Like, this is need to know information. And I really do think, like, I mean, for one, I'm like, I'm so grateful for the restoration. And prophets, like, we can know stuff like this because, like, these poor, like my neighbors, you know, my friends that aren't Mormon and they're Christian, you know, they think they know stuff, but, like, they could be deceived by this. And I really genuinely thought, I think because I already was getting, like, the exceptionalism, like, I'm a member of God's true church, you know, the missionary zeal, all of this kind of stuff. So I really honestly thought, like, I would get a messenger in my life. It seemed completely realistic that either I would either need a good angel at some point to give me some really important message from God, or just that just because we're so righteous, because we're part of the true church that Satan would want to try to deceive me out of it away from the true church and I might, you know, get a deceiving angel. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] So I think Jen, I think Jen found the reference. Did you find it, Jen?

Maven [00:24:21] Yeah, it's in DNC 129, four through eight.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Okay. And all I can say is thank goodness for modern day revelation. Yeah, right.

Maven [00:24:31] Very, very important. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] No, but. But also just jokingly a little bit. I'm 52 and I have yet to meet a spirit where I get to perform this test. It's kind of weird. Have you, I guess maybe that's part of your story.

Maven [00:24:42] Maybe. Right, Jen?

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Have you, have you been able to meet a spirit yet?

Maven [00:24:46] I have not.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] So you haven't been able to try this out?

Maven [00:24:49] No, I haven't.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] Okay, well, let's keep, I mean, viewers, listeners, if any of you have been able to try out this important test that, you know, modern revelation, let us know, we'd love to hear about. Okay, Sorry, back to you.

Maven [00:25:01] No problem. So we're going through this lesson so we get this part right. And again, I think this is amazing stuff that I'm learning. Very important. And we get to. My dad starts talking about the priesthood and casting out devils. I don't know, I guess maybe it's the same section or maybe this was a riff and it was kind of going off on the side. But I remember my dad explaining that he could raise his arm to the square and he could command demons to leave or an evil spirit to leave and they would have to obey. And I thought that was also really awesome and really cool to that we get. Because we're the true church and we have God's real authority where it's like somebody else doing that it would not work, you know, because we are right and we have all this right stuff. So I think this is where, you know, and Brad Wilcox's talk reminded me of this. When he talked about his daughter, I think, blessing the sacrament, you know, the whole playing church thing. And he got, he got concerned when his daughter said the sac sacrament, parent, whatever it was there. I remember thinking like, oh yeah, because like she doesn't know yet. It's played as a laugh line. But I thought that part was really sad because I was like, I remember when I didn't know when I thought I was equal, you know, and so this was the point like where it fell apart. So I either asked a question or I think I just made an assumption and I said something like, well, When I have the priesthood, I'm gonna cast out demons or, you know, something like that. And so that's where the hammer fell, because my dad said, well, you won't have the priesthood. And I didn't get it at first. I was like, well, not now. I mean, when I'm older, you know. And he said, no, you'll never get it because you're a girl, and women don't get it. And, yeah, and especially again, like, at this time, I'm voraciously reading about all these female pioneers, Madame Curie, you know, like, all these great women who have done things. And again, I'm in Girl Scouts, which is very empowering. And girls can do anything boys can do. I'm really in this. And so this is the first time. And it's coming from my dad. Like, no, there's something that you can't do because you're a girl. And not just like my physical dad, but my Heavenly Father, who's also supposed to love me, but it's Heavenly Father that doesn't want me to have something because I'm a girl. So I remember feeling really shocked. And also, my mom, she's the kind of mom that. You know the phrase, like, if mom ain't happy, ain't no one happy. Like, that was kind of how things were. And so my first reaction was like, that my mom would not stand for this. It's just a way. So when my dad said that and I saw my parents as equal as well, I totally thought they had equal authority in the home, different roles. I did recognize that, but I still, you know, I just didn't notice, I think, I guess, until this point. So I remember looking at my mom and saying, what about Mom? Doesn't she have it? And I was looking at her, and I still remember, like, where she was sitting and how she was sitting, even, because she had her legs, like, tucked up under her. And I remember when I looked at her to say, what about you? She, like, pursed her lips and she kind of closed her eyes, and she just did this really slow kind of shake. And when she opened her eyes and looked at me, and it just was a really sad look. And I probably had the same one, I think, because I was just learning for the first time, like, this big difference here, you know? And so, yeah, so it was just like this kind of connection between me and my mom. And I, like, no, she doesn't have the priesthood either. Like, no, women get it. It's not an adult or a child kind of a thing. And then of course, at that point, my little brother pipes up, who's like 6 or so at the time, and he was like, what about me? You know, and my dad was like, when you're 12, you'll get the Aaronic priesthood. And that just was salt in the wound because, like, my brother hated church. Like, he had a hard time sitting still. Like, he was always, you know, getting into trouble. And he was layman, right? Yeah. And so it just didn't make any sense to me that he didn't. He didn't like reading scriptures as a family. Just that. Nothing spiritual, like, it seemed he really liked. And so. Yeah. So why does he get it? Why does God want him to have it just because he's a boy when he doesn't care and he doesn't want it. But I care and I want to do good things, but I can't because I'm a girl? And it wasn't just that also, but, like, I mean, talking about all this demon stuff, like, I was really, honestly, legitimately scared a little bit. Like, demons could come, you know, And I did have a nightmare that night about demons coming. And I couldn't do anything about it because I don't have the priesthood, so I can't, like, raise my arm just and make it leave, you know? And so that was something that, like, legitimately troubled me for a little bit until, like, it faded enough out of my memory not to think about it, you know?

The Law of Chastity and Gender Expectations

John Dehlin [00:29:36] You're making me think of something. I often talk about how the law of chastity. We often explore our Mormon stories, how the law of chastity serves as this binding force to the church because everybody gets caught in the guilt and shame sort of cycle there, this belief in spirits is another one. Because if you believe there are evil spirits all around that are trying to get you. Even though I don't think I know anyone who's ever really experienced the spirit, maybe they felt scared and attributed that to being a spirit. But I think a lot of us who are more in the secular world will admit we've never really met a spirit before. But the belief that there is a spirit, and then you add to that the fact that the church will teach that it gives you the power over the spirits. I guess you just helped me realize that can be a binding force for people.

Maven [00:30:21] It could be.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] Even if it's completely not true.

Maven [00:30:24] I think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] That's interesting.

Maven [00:30:26] I think I just had to justify it as, like, thinking that, like, I was under my father's protection, maybe. So even if I Wasn't around my father. I don't think Heavenly Father would allow a demon to get closer, close to me where I would be at its mercy. I had to, like, work this out in my mind. Like, how am I. Okay. How am I still protected, even though I won't ever be able to, like, yeah, send one away at the time. Like I said, I'm very literal. This is all very real to me. I really, you know, it was something that bothered me. But that is the start of, like, what. What every woman in the church does, which is, like, when you're confronted with sex, which is constant. It's constant. There's never one time where you just, like, accept it and turn and just, you know, and turn it off. You have to renegotiate again and again and again and again.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] Yeah. Because what's different about your experience than maybe mine is you're. It's like there's going to be a boogeyman that comes anytime. But you can't have a gun. The guys get the gun. You got to find a guy who's got the gun to shoot the bad guy. Analogously. You know what I mean?

Maven [00:31:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] So that would stink. To feel like, yeah, Heavenly father didn't give me the gun, but he gave my brother a gun.

Maven [00:31:34] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] I got to call dad or brother.

Maven [00:31:37] Yeah. And, like, I'm the responsible one. If you're gonna give someone a gun, don't give one to him.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] I'm so sorry. Like, that's tender. That's sad.

Maven [00:31:46] Yeah. I mean, but just the learning stuff and then renegotiating. I mean, you either ignore it, or you try to work it out and justify it, or you try to pretend that it is equal when it's clearly not. But different. Equal, but different. Or separate but equal, which what some people have said. But that obviously has different connotations. I think that's why I am hearing more like equal but different. I think they're trying to get away from, like, the segregation racist aspect of where that phrase came from, where it was very obviously not the, like, impression that they're trying to give when they say that. So anyway. Yeah, so that's. So that's, I guess, where all that kind of started. I think that's it as far as that goes. My. My father didn't like moving around a lot, which is not a good fit for the military. Yeah. So. So we were in Germany at the time. I did get a third sibling along that time. And that. And this was another thing where it's like kind of a Saturday's Warrior. Like, there's one more. My mom felt like there's another one for us, for our family, a specific spirit that's supposed to come to our family. But my dad wasn't really into the idea. We've got one of each. We're good, you know. And again, like, we always were struggling financially, so usually. But I think my mom kind of pulled the ultimate card, which is like, okay, if there's not gonna be any babies, that there doesn't need to be any baby making activities. So that's how I got my youngest brother, who's 10 years younger than I am. So, yeah, so he came along. And then it was shortly after that, he was. He wasn't even a year old before my father switched from full time army to National Guard and we moved back to Utah, back to the promised land, Zion. So, yeah, and there was some major culture shock for me, which is kind of funny because I was used to being like a minority in religion, but also in skin color and like I said, in certain neighborhoods. And so, like, just coming where? And I forgot or I didn't realize, like, Utah is the Mormon Mecca. So I remember on, like, one of my first days in school, it was in fifth grade, I met a girl, like, we became friends, and I guess I already had, like, this persecution complex already also, maybe because of being out, like, out in the field. So I meet a friend the first day, and as we get to the end of the school day, I kind of tell her, like, I think I should let you know that I'm Mormon and you should probably tell your parents and see if they are okay with that. And I honestly don't remember ever having a kid not be okay with it or their parents not be okay with it. But I still had it in my mind, like, I should tell her just in case, like, they won't want her to be friends with me or something. And I remember her saying, like, well, I'm Mormon too. And then I was shocked. I was just like, oh, my gosh, this is my first day at school and I met the other Mormon girl. You know, there was another girl nearby, and she was like, I'm Mormon too. And then I was like, oh, my goodness. Like, all three of us are more like, we're all here, you know? And that's when the third girl was like, it's Utah. Everybody's Mormon. And I was like, oh, so that was new. But not only that, but just like following the commandments again, because we're pretty strict and very like, Bruce R. McConkie, Ezra Taft, Benson kind of stuff. And I guess I didn't get into like the politics of it, but when I watched Emma's episode, I related so much to her because my. That was kind of the same where every time a Democrat is a president, that's the time like, they're going to take our guns, they're going to outlaw it, then they're going to call martial law, they're going to do something to basically set themselves up as a dictator and take over everything. My dad said that for Clinton, he said it for Obama, and now for Biden. It's the exact same thing. So there were a lot of similarities there that I really related with Emma. Just no bunker.

A Fundamentalist Mormon Household

John Dehlin [00:35:37] How else was your home kind of a more fundamentalist or ultra orthodox home? If. If you want to share, if you want to save that. But like, yeah, no, there's like the. No Coca Cola or no G13. You know, there are different ways that families express their ultra orthodoxy.

Maven [00:35:55] That's a good point. There were some things like we didn't drink a lot of caffeinated soda, but I know later as a teen, I think that was something that we got a lot more lax in. But I don't remember being told, like, I can't drink it, I just didn't like it. And we didn't have it very much. And that's kind of. That's an extra thing. Like, you know, again, like with money, like, you don't waste it on soda unless it's like a special occasion or something. You know what I mean? So I don't remember actually having much, but I do remember, like my dad had not a first edition of Mormon doctrine by Bruce McConkey, but. But the next one. And I remember him telling me like reading me one section about the. With the Whore of Babylon. And he told me like about the first edition and that this specifically, like Bruce Armaconki points it out that that is the Catholic Church. That is what's there. But it had.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] The Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.

Maven [00:36:47] It's the Whore of Babylon, right? Like that is the. I believe that's the section that it was under something like that. And I remember him saying, like, they had to take it out of this, you know, because it's not PC enough. And PC politically correct was always said like that, with that intonation, like, like a slur almost, you know.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] So it's not that Bruce Armaconki changed his mind or was wrong. No, it's that he had to.

Maven [00:37:09] It's not right. Yeah. And that. I remember that being just a little teeny bit of a conflict for me at the time, because on the one hand, I was feeling like, well, if we're right, we're right. You know, so, like, if it's true, it's true. It. You know, and then on, you know, on the other hand, I was like, okay, I can see. But, you know, that would maybe be offensive to people and maybe kind of hurt the overall work. But I remember having that. Yeah. Just like, that little point of conflict. Like, why did. If we're right and we're the true church, like, why do we have to roll back, like, what we know to accommodate people who are wrong? You know what I mean? That's how I thought about it.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] And sometimes orthodoxy is more. It's more orthodoxy, less orthopraxy. So. So maybe it was just beliefs. It was just like political or conservative political mindset.

Maven [00:37:52] Yeah. Oh, yeah, Definitely. I am. I know, like, my dad definitely a lot to Rush Limbaugh. Because my dad, he was. He did a lot of mechanical work. And so I know, like, in his shop and I think several jobs he'd have, like, that would be like, what was playing. And so that kind of ideology was definitely where he was at. And so.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] So equating Mormonism with conservative US Conservative politics.

Maven [00:38:17] And in fact, there were. There were times where I kind of. I almost feel like religion was the politics and kind of Mormonism was like, the flavor of Republican religion. It's kind of how it seems to me, because I did wonder about that, especially later. My dad would have, like, one of my dad's most common callings would be young men leader. And he was really good at that. And I just remember there was a program once that had been misprinted. My father was the speaker that day, but it had bishop in front of it. And so, you know, they played it off as a joke. He came up and, you know, and people, maybe you're going to be called as a bishop, you know, whatever. But it was just a typo, you know, anyway. But I remember thinking at the time, like, my dad is not bishop material. I don't think he would ever be a bishop. And I remember, like, trying to figure out why or kind of think, like, what's different about my dad than other people? And that was one of the things I kind of thought of was, like, I didn't really feel a lot of spiritualism from him. Not like. Like about Jesus, you know, it really was. Yeah, just like the scriptures, just. Yeah. The orthodoxy and the. And the politics is kind of the. Most of it for my dad is what I got from that. So anyway. Oh, I did want to talk about, like, the culture shock and. And just following things, because when you're. Again, when you're really orthodox and you're apart from everyone else, people, like, will accept what you say about your rules, if that makes sense. Just for an example, even as an adult, if I was out of state and applying for a job, like a retail job or something, I would tell people, yeah, I'm Mormon, so I can't work on Sunday. And they would accept that. But they don't accept that in Utah because everyone's Mormon. You got to take your Sunday. Like, this isn't. Or you don't get the job, you know, kind of a thing. So. And this movie is going forward a little bit, but in sixth grade, I had, like, a little, like, puppy love crush with a boy in my class. And so I get. But we're really young, right? You don't date until you're 16. And even then you're supposed to do group dates, and you don't single date till you're 18. So we're 12. We're quite, like, not there yet. But I remember a girl saying, like, well, if you like him, why don't you just date him? And so I said, well, I'm Mormon. And she's like, me too. I go on dates. But I didn't know what to say to that. You know, because I'm Mormon was usually enough before. And so, yeah, that's when I realized, like, there's kind of different standards.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] Shades of Mormon.

Maven [00:40:38] Right, Right. And there's wrong ones and right ones, and I'm a right one, you know, and she's wrong. Right. So that's kind of how I was. So it was definitely very orthodox. And again, because, like, I always wanted to be the good girl. I always tried. Wasn't always successful, but, like, that was my intent. So. As we start to get older, though, things really start getting toxic in my family. We're just not really good communicators at all. There's. There's just not any healthy way ever. I recall that problems were worked out or anything, and of course, like, fhe kind of fell by the wayside. And so did scripture reading and so did family prayer. And at the time, I completely saw those as related. And so I thought that our family struggled not because there were, like, deep problems, you know, psychologically with maybe my mother's upbringing and. And her attempts at, you know, at parenting with the, with trauma that she had that she never had a chance to actually work through, you know. And then just my parents relationship was not good and like me and my brother in close age to me it was never good there either. I really honestly thought that fhe and scripture study and prayer would be like the magic bullet that fixed everything. They literally all we have to do to have a happy family is to do these things. And so I would be really overbearing sometimes with my parents, like trying to force it, trying to make it happen, trying to like wrangle everyone together because I really, I just, I just really hated the discord. It was really awful to be at home like when things were like that and I just wanted it fixed and like this is all that we have to do to fix it. If we just read scriptures and we pray and we have family home evening. I remember thinking the same thing when I in my family growing up because I was just, I just kept thinking, okay, if, if we'll just do family home evening and we'll just read our scriptures every morning, like everything will, will be the happiest family and everything will be good and you know, nothing bad will happen. And all these things and I, and I do remember like finally just like giving up and just like deciding, okay, when I start my family, then, then I'll do that and then it will be okay. Because I finally had to give up because it just wasn't happening. And so did you have that exactly what happened with my family? Yeah, you were being Nephi.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] You were literally being Nephi.

Maven [00:43:04] Yeah, I mean, and sometimes it works like when I was younger they'd be like, okay, it's a good thing our kids are here, you know, to like help us be good parents. And then. But after a while, like it just, they didn't want to anymore. And which it made sense. And when we did do it, like it wasn't fun a lot of the times, you know, especially if people, my younger brother especially brought there against their will, you know, it wasn't, you know, a harmonious fhe, but I still thought like, if we at least just do it and have the habit. So maybe it's not, it's not going to magically just from one, but if we build up the habit. And so I resented my parents because I again, I just thought like, this is something so easy we could do that would fix our family and they're just not doing it and why, why are they doing it? But really, you know, it's hard to want to Be together as a family if it's. If it's toxic, and. And that doesn't kind of help. So. Yeah. So I got to the point eventually where I was just like, I. I have to give up on this, and I'm gonna look for. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do it on my family. I'm gonna do it right, and we're gonna have the best, most amazing family ever. And then I also had, especially getting into my teens, my relationship with my mom was, like, starting to get really, really, really bad. And I still. I still think about it. I feel like I figured out some things because I know she had a terrible relationship with her mother. But my grandmother actually turned things around right when my mom got married, so she was able to attend the temple marriage of my mother. And so I knew her as like a normal Mormon, lovely grandmother. She was nothing like the mother that she was to my mom, you know? And so I think my mom really, honestly, probably more than anything, really wanted a good relationship with me. I was the only girl, and I was the oldest, but she just didn't know how. And so if when things didn't go the way she wanted to, instead of working it out, I felt like I was punished a lot for, I guess, not behaving in the way that she was wanting me to or expecting me to. And if I was upset about things, I feel like her method to try to make me feel better was to talk about her childhood, which was. I will agree it was absolutely worse, you know, but that doesn't mean that I also don't have pain or I, like, you can't. I have no right to feel any pain. But it.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Trauma Olympics, basically.

Maven [00:45:24] Yeah. That's kind of what it felt like.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] Your trauma is not as bad as mine.

Maven [00:45:26] Yeah. Yeah. And I think she meant well, as in, you know, like, I really did think. I think she thought that I would think, okay, I don't have. You know, my life's pretty great. I love you, Mom. Like, you know, let's go do shopping together or something. But that's. That's just not how it went. And so when things didn't go well, then, yeah, or if I not criticize, but if I. If I said something or tried to point out anything that she did that bothered me or hurt me or something, I always meant it as, like, something to work out or talk out, but I think it maybe scared my mother in a way. And so I would get like, I'm the parent and you're the child, so just kind of by default, like the parent is always right and the child is always wrong. And so. And again, like, when I was younger, I really tried to be the good girl. So I, I acquiesced a lot. But as I became a teen, I started to get more and more upset at unfairness that I was feeling and seeing. So then I started to push back more and then that just kind made things worse and then some of the unfairness I. I think I did have to do with gender and being the only girl because I just feel like, I know part of like my brother being able to do a lot of things he did was just because of the hyperactivity and. And I think my parents partly wanted to give him an outlet and maybe also like just have him out of the house and making friends, you know, things like that. So my brother was involved in a lot of sports and things like that. And I did have some activities when I was younger. But I remember as I got older, it got harder and harder for me to be able to do after school activities. So I guess I should say I went to school in Hurricane, Utah. For people not familiar, it's spelled like Hurricane, but that's not how it's pronounced.

Living Near the FLDS Community in Southern Utah

John Dehlin [00:47:10] Hurricane. Hurricane, yeah, it's southern Utah, a little bit north of St. George, right?

Maven [00:47:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Or Cedar City or.

Maven [00:47:17] Yeah, like it's between St. George and Cedar City. I would say it's like, I mean, a little bit north, but more like east, kind of like out that way. But. But I lived in a little town called Apple Valley, and that is in the middle of right between Hurricane and the FLDS Hildale Colorado City compound. So, I mean, don't ask me about that. Like, ask Lindsey Hansen park, because you would know way more about them than I did. I think maybe because they were like, close and maybe like a little too close religiously. You know, they were kind of an uncomfortable presence. So I never really learned much about them. I knew they were there, of course. I knew like tangentially a lot about him, but anyway, so yeah, so just leave. Like, we lived really far out of town. And part of the reason why Apple Valley is a really unique little area, it's just, it was initially just a settlement and never was a town. It was settled by, I feel like, kind of like the libertarian types who just wanted to have their own property and not have a city government telling them like, what they can do with it. And that's exactly why my dad was there and because he was a car enthusiast. So our acre of property there, I think at the most, we had, like,

John Dehlin [00:48:22] cars on cinder block cars.

Maven [00:48:24] Yeah, I've seen. I think the most would have been maybe like 20 or. I can't say car, because they weren't

John Dehlin [00:48:29] like full cars, like a junkyard, like Sanford Sons.

Maven [00:48:33] Yeah, absolutely. But that's. But that's, you know, because my four parts, you know, to build things. And my dad had all these projects that he wanted to do in the future and stuff, so. Yeah, so that's why we were there. And there's no city government that can come and tell you, like, you're not up to code or whatever. But for me, like, the biggest problem was the distance, like, to Hurricane. I didn't have a lot of peers up there, and so it really was pretty isolating. And if I wanted to do anything in the afternoon or, like, stay after school, I had to find a ride. So I had. I had so many of my neighbors phone numbers memorized, because I would have to call and just be like, do you work? Do you get off? Will you be coming, like, along the way at this time, you know, when an activity was over? And I hated doing it because I really felt like a burden on other people. But if I wanted to do anything, like, I had to get a ride. My parents did not want to make a special trip to go and come back.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] Are you saying you didn't have a cell phone?

Maven [00:49:23] No, that was very bougie. Back then, rich people would have cell phones. I did end up getting one a little bit later, and it was so big and clunky. It was like a house phone. Like, it could stand up on its own. I had it at someone else's house, and they mistook it for their phone when their phone rang and they picked up my cell phone for their home phone. That's how big and clunky it was. But that was later teen years. But, yeah, I didn't have. So I would have to arrange these things ahead of time, like on our landline and then Apple Valley, too. Like, even once cell phones were a thing, the reception was really bad out there. Like, coverage was really awful.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] So this is kind of the poverty theme a little bit. Yeah.

Maven [00:49:57] Yeah. But when, like, I mean, I mean, even just like the next year, I took home a paper once, like, because I wasn't doing any sports. I never had done any kind of sports. But there were tennis tryouts coming up. So I remember I, like, took home the tennis paper, and I thought, you know, maybe this is something I could try out. Maybe this is. Maybe this is something I could Do I remember my parents looking at it and going, oh, it's $80. We can't. We can't afford that. I'm sorry. You know, and so I just like, okay, you know, I just accept it. I believe my parents and, you know, but it's. It's only like the next year, and our financial situation is the same as before, but for football, which was like $250, like, way more involved than. I mean, just as far as practices at just everything, like, way more.

John Dehlin [00:50:40] Your brother.

Maven [00:50:41] Yeah, he's like, my brother is in football. And so, yeah, so I tried to, like, yeah, you know, and I mean, but it was pretty calm. Like, my brother, like, he got to go out and play, like, a ton. He was always out of the house, and I was always in the house. And part of it, that's my fault. I am a bit of a homebody, and I was like a bookworm. But it did seem like the few times that I did try to get out, it was just harder for me. It just seemed like after a while my parents said no to me because it was easier on them to say no. And even if I pushed back, you know, if they were firm, then I would give up and acquiescence and be like, okay, fine. But with my brother, it was easier to tell him yes because if they really did, like, grind down and say no to something, he would be so upset. It just. There was always, like, a price to pay. And I don't think he did this consciously or purposely, but somebody would get hurt.

John Dehlin [00:51:29] You will.

Maven [00:51:29] Yeah. Something would get broken, you know, just because he was just in a bad mood and just didn't try anymore. So a lot. It really was easier and I understood it. And I. I mean, honestly, I felt the same. Like, yeah, let's, like, if he's going to be like this here, let him go out and play with his friends. Just be out, you know. But again, because there was one, like, particularly going to the pool, which is. It's hot in southern Utah. There's no pool in Apple Valley. And so that was a big treat. And I had friends that were willing, who lived in Hurricane. They were willing to drive all the way to Apple Valley to pick me up, take me to the pool and bring me back. That's an hour out of their day. It's at least 15 minutes. And that was an extremely rare offer. No one from town ever wanted to, like, bring me home from stuff. So. Yeah, so I was just like, this is. That's the big hurdle, you know, and that's Usually what my parents would say no over, but they said no. And my mom specifically, I don't remember, like, if my dad was there, but I remember asking my mom and. And I was really upset when she said no because I just did not understand why. It was the summer. I had never done anything almost. I'd been home the whole summer, and I just wanted to do this one thing. And so I kept pushing and pushing. I wasn't letting this one go. And finally she said, what about me? And I. I didn't know what she meant. And she was like, how come I don't get to do anything? Like. Like, I'm here, I'm doing the dishes, you know? And at the time, it. I just. I was like, you're an adult and you work and you can drive and you have money, like you have a paycheck. I didn't understand, like, what that had to do with me or why that was my. So I just felt like she might. She's just punishing. She's mad about something. She just doesn't want me to have fun. And so, like, that's how I saw it.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] And what was she saying?

Maven [00:53:11] Well, I mean, I think again, I think this is where there's just kind of some enmeshment between us, where I was some kind of, I think, a reflection of her. So I think it felt more unfair to her if I was doing something that she wasn't able to, but she could. She didn't have to do the dishes right then and there. You know what I mean? But I think she felt trapped and she felt like she couldn't even if

John Dehlin [00:53:34] she, like, technically could guess what I'm wondering is if. If the role of the Mormon woman is very prescriptive and set and a little bit rigid. If your mom felt kind of constrained by that, and then if she's saying, well, if I'm constrained, you're going to be constrained.

Maven [00:53:53] I think so. I. I absolutely think so. And again, because she had such a hard childhood, she was really looking forward to, like, doing things correctly that the way her parents did not do them and she was supposed to be happy, like, that's what they keep. That's what they promise. And yeah, and she really wasn't. But she really did try. And I. I did see that, like, she did try to fit this role more of, like, the perfect Mormon mom in the ways that. That she envisioned it and could. And yeah, I. I guess you're sensing

John Dehlin [00:54:24] she wasn't super happy in her role as a Mormon woman. No, that she wasn't her parents, but she still wasn't happy.

Maven [00:54:32] No, no. And, in fact, there was a school assignment once where I was supposed to ask my parents, like, what did they used to want to be when they were a kid, like, when they grew up? And when I asked her, she said, happy. That was the answer to that. And then. But on the flip side, if there was ever any time that I seemed ambivalent about being a mother, which I don't feel like I ever was, but I. If we were, like, watching TLC and there's, like, some birth show on or something, I think if my face was like, you know, then my mom would be like, being a mother is great. It's. I mean, like, the childbirth is painful, but it's. It's really beautiful when you have the baby after. So, like, that was the only time she was ever really, like, effusive about being a mother is if I seemed to not be into it, but I was, because I was. Again, I was very orthodox. So I'm already taking in this messaging. So I think it was just something. If my mom saw something, then she would do that. But outside of that, it did not seem like she loved it, and it did not seem like she really. I mean, she loved us, but wasn't really happy with us a lot, you know. And there was actually one time that my grandfather called. I had answered the phone, but I didn't recognize his voice or know who he was. And so he just asked for my mom. And when I handed the phone over, she booked it out of the house just like. But I get like, it's a cheap house. She's standing outside, but I can still hear her, like, on the other side of the wall. And I hear her just, like, praising me. And again, this is the time when our relationship was really, really awful. But she's explaining like, you know, my daughter's doing well in school. She got Sterling Scholars. She's doing this. You know, my brother's doing great in football, the team is. You know, all this kind of stuff, which she's normally not her go to when she's talking about us. And I remember just thinking, like, what is going on here? Why is. You know. And then when I found out it was my grandfather, it made sense. Why? Because it was kind of like a no thanks to you. Like, I have this great life, dad, which you were not a part of, you know, and I'm doing fine without you kind of a thing. That was what. That was for her, I think, to kind of you know, stick it to him, which I understand. Like he wasn't, he wasn't there for her.

Education, Ambition, and Parental Pressure

John Dehlin [00:56:24] You were Sterling scholar.

Maven [00:56:25] I was starting scholar.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Which, which category?

Maven [00:56:27] Foreign language. Japanese.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Oh, cool.

Maven [00:56:29] Yeah, but don't speak to me in Japanese because I won't be able to say much back. But yeah, I really, I really enjoyed that in school.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] So I mean, if I'm, if I'm a Mormon mom raising a Mormon girl, I want her to know that she's got limits because her whole life is going to be about limits and being in the box. So part of my training for her is to make sure she knows she can't do everything she wants to do. It's kind of the opposite of the Girl Scout message because she's gonna, her education she may or may not get and she's gonna have kids and she's not going to be able to have a career, she's not going to be able to pursue her education as much as she wants and she's going to be a stay at home mom. I mean, am I wrong?

Maven [00:57:12] I initially want to push back on that, but I actually think, I'm not

John Dehlin [00:57:17] saying that's true for everyone, right?

Maven [00:57:19] No, but generally, because I feel like again, like, because I was just this big reader when I was younger, like people would, would tell me like, you're smart, she could go to college, you know, which no one in my family had done. And I think I just got that message. I just, I'm going to go to college. You know, I think my mom did want that for me, but I know like when I started talking about going on a mission, that was not something that she was into. She was not like very supportive of that. And so I'm kind of thinking maybe that, that, that does kind of go along with it. I was just going to say the feeling I had when, when John started to talk to you, I kind of had a pushback too, like in my mind because. But not. Yes. Like what, what you're saying is true. Like that is like they do, they do need to let us women, female know that like what our place is. But they've been taught how to spin it to where we think that we're so. That's such an amazing role. Like that's what you want. That's what is like, it's just, I don't know, they spin it to be this amazing, amazing thing. Like you know, and a non selfish thing. And like all these words they, they used to praise you to be in that role. I think part of it's self assurance also, because that's where they're at. So it's reassuring to themselves that they also made the right decision.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] Yeah, right.

Maven [00:58:56] Yeah. You just said it, like, point, point blank. And both of us probably are like, wait, but then it is that. But then they spin it at this weird thing and it makes your mind and your body actually, like, react.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] Yeah. Because they'll never say. They'll never say, well, you're not going to really pursue your education to its fullest.

Maven [00:59:16] You're not going to go to college. You're not going to be able to do what you want to.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] It's more. You get to be a mom. And mom is the most sacred thing. Right?

Maven [00:59:23] That's what the church says.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Yeah, but I was just, you know, my mom and my sisters were all taught, a woman doesn't need more than a couple years of college. And the whole purpose of going to college is to find your eternal companion

Maven [00:59:34] or to have something. If your husband dies, then you might have something to have, something to fall back, fall back on. Like, those are the two narratives. But, yeah, I. I don't even think I was told that I should go to college. Yeah, but I'm.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Yeah, yeah.

Maven [00:59:48] And I was su. I was very smart. Like, I took AP classes in high school. I tried to get as much calls as college as I could in high school because I knew in my mind what was sent. Yeah. What, you know, what was expected of me. So, you know, I had, you know, super high grades and was super smart and was taking, like, AP calculus and history and, like, all of these things to try and get myself ahead. And it's just now looking back, I'm, like, so sad. I agree. But you did hit it right on the head there. And I, I don't mean to be

John Dehlin [01:00:24] telling you what it's like to be a Mormon woman.

Maven [01:00:27] It's true, though. And I think, and I feel like that plays into my best friend as well. Like her, her mom also married young and, you know, things like that. So I think, yeah, there is a sense of, I think, setting up the expectation correctly.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] Can I just pick. I'm sorry, just one more observation. You're teaching me things. Another thing I'm realizing is no matter how much better your parent, no matter how much better your parents give you a life than what they had as a Mormon, it seems like the church still benefits from the children thinking that their parents didn't do a good job. Because what that does is it makes them want to graduate from high school and do the Mormon thing better than their parents did. Because by your mom's standards, she gave you a way better upbringing than she had. So by her mind, she's. She's the mom of the century. Maybe a little bit at least better than what she had.

Maven [01:01:24] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] But then you're like, ah, this is a. This is not the upbringing I wanted. I'm going to do Mormonism even better. Right. It seems like the church might benefit from that scenario.

Maven [01:01:33] I agree. And I think that was part of the problem that she couldn't figure out what was. What's the problem between me and my daughter? I'm doing so much more than my mom ever did. I think she just didn't understand. She wasn't able to see what the problem could be. Yeah. And so, and that's why I feel bad because she really did want that relationship with me. She just didn't know how to get it, you know. But in. So like I start young women and this, it's not a normal lesson, I don't think. But my first Sunday school lesson in young happened to be about budgeting. And so that felt very grown up to me. And again like I'm. I never suffered like from Peter Panson where like, I don't want to grow up. I wanted to grow up. I wanted to get out of the house. I wanted to be making my decisions. You know, I wanted to. I felt like I needed. This wasn't my real life. My real life was going to start when I was out of the house and I just couldn't wait. So just kind of biding my time as I like growing up as a teenager. So yeah, so I really digging into church stuff and then this is like a real quick aside, but it like in middle school, normally I like school, but seventh grade was a really rough year. I lost my friend group and I was bullied by them and it was kind of. And that was something also that really enmeshed me in the church because then like I didn't like being at home. Didn't like being at school now either. Church was like the only haven left and I was really lonely. So I have no friends anymore because my own group turned on me. And part of that was my fault. So it's still just girl stuff, I guess. Right. So anyway, that was a rough year, but it was over after that. I mean, summer vacation, everyone moved on. But that year was extremely tough for me. So I really, really got into church. I had my scriptures with me all the time. I was like, you know, I would eat my lunch and then I'm by myself. So I would just be like reading from the Book of Mormon in the Bible and just, you know, really, I really felt like God was on my side. And so I felt like he was my only friend at that time. And so, yeah, so I think that's where like a lot of it came in. And then again with the family stuff and young women, I do want to do things correctly and the right way. So I am, I'm taking in all of the, I guess the toxic church teachings, the Ezra Taft Benson, you know, I mean, this is how you will be happy. Even though I could see like my mom did the same thing and she's not happy, I still, and this is something the church, you blame people when, when things don't come out right. If the promises that don't come forth about this, you know, temple marriage, that's supposed to be better than if it wasn't like you did something wrong, the blame reversal. She did something wrong, my dad did something.

John Dehlin [01:04:01] But just so people know, the Benson that would, you know, he's my cousin, like, but he would have given these famous general conference talks in the early 80s saying a woman's place is in the home having babies. And if a woman works outside the home, it's basically wickedness and bad for the family unless it ruins the marriage, unless it's an extreme emergency.

Maven [01:04:22] Right?

John Dehlin [01:04:23] Yeah.

Maven [01:04:23] And see, that's another thing too, because that, because my mom did work out of the home. And he even says in that talk, like, if you, if you need to not have piano lessons or something like that so the mom can stay in the home, you need to do that. I really thought part of the reason why we struggled and that we weren't more financially successful was because my parents did not have the faith to have my mom at home. And so I honestly in my mind thought that if they had enough faith to just have my mom quit her job and do the stay at home mom thing, the Lord would bless us in ways. You know, maybe my dad would get a promotion or a different job entirely, or just other things would happen and we would be better off. Like, that is how I thought the world worked. God blesses you if you follow. And so I honestly felt like some of our poverty was because my mom worked and brought in more money and we would be better off if she didn't.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] But she had to work so that you could survive.

Maven [01:05:15] Well, I mean that's, that's the secular view. You know, if you don't believe in God and if you don't trust that he's going to bless your family. Then I guess you're right.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Ouch. Ouch.

Maven [01:05:24] Yeah. So that, that's how I saw it. And I really. Yeah, yeah. I just, I definitely judged my parents, like, by these standards that I was learning. And so. And I do feel bad about that now because it really wasn't their fault. But there's like, there's this prosperity gospel, you know, like. And so I really. Because it wasn't just like the stay at home mom. My ideal Mormon family was like the businessman dad, you know, white collar worker and a house that had at least two stories. Because I felt like all the good Mormon families had like a basement with a den that you could have activities in, you know, or like watch a movie, like on a really big tv. So at least two floors, you know, if it wasn't a basement, then a second floor where you had. Or an extra living room, you know, this is what like the great Mormon families look like. And they always had like tan or beige walls with white trim. And it was really expensive, like Jesus pictures from Deseret book that were like hundreds of dollars. It's like my family would never have in a million years. Like, that would be way extra to have. And our little tiny houses, like, we wouldn't even. We didn't have like a display wall, a mantle, like where you could put something like that. Like, that's not the kind of places we lived in, but that was kind of like my idea. Oh, and like big, huge family portrait, like where everyone's smiling, but it's like a real smile, not like we're doing it for the pictures. You know what I mean? So that's. Yeah, I, I really did think, like part of the discord and then also part of just the financial struggles, like, was because my parents weren't like, there's something they weren't quite doing Right. Faithfully, otherwise we would be more successful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] So that was your Mormon dream that your parents weren't living up to.

Maven [01:06:57] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] That you would have someday.

Maven [01:06:59] Right. Like, better than other people. But yeah, I just, I did definitely think I was going to improve on that. And so that was one thing. That one thing that I really got into besides the family stuff was I was. I got really worried about apostasy and just like milk stripping stories, you know, people who were offended out of the church, you know, things like that. And it really, really bothered me because again, we're like, we're talking about eternity here. So like, how can people in this short life that we have. And it just really worried me, like, what if that happens to me? Like, what if there's something that, that offends me that I give up my entire salvation for, right? So I would do these like Abrahamic tests in my mind, like, what, what's something that could happen to me that you know, and I, and I would just work through it how I would get over it. And one of them was polygamy, obviously. I mean, the FLDS are right there. I did have like a brief little interlude with some anti Mormons who totally lied about Joseph Smith and said that he had a 14 year old bride. Which, like, obviously we would not have done that. But I did know, like there was polygamy in early church history and there were some pretty young ones. So I was just like, okay, well like even if that's a lie. And I was like 14 or 15 at this time, I was thinking about this. I was like, what if, okay, just what if the prophet who scored behing at the time, like, what if he said like, polygamy is coming back? And I was like, you know, no, no woman likes that. But I was just like, you know what? Like the important question, one might call it a primary question, is like, do I trust the prophet? Do I think he speaks for God? And I was like, okay, yes, I do. So I, I would accept that if that happened. It's not going to happen, but if it did, I would accept that. And then I thought, you know, what if someone said like, you know, the prophet said, like, God told me to marry you. And at first, you know, I was like, yeah, Joseph Smith was way younger. So like, that was just like way different than Gordon B. Hinckley. He's a lot, lot, lot, lot older than me, so that would never happen. But then I was like, no, I'm trying to, I'm giving myself an out. I don't want to do that. So, okay, now what if it was Gordon B. Hinckley? Like, what if I did have to marry him? So I wrestled with that for a while. Like, well, do I trust him? Like, do I think he's the prophet? And yeah, I do. So I was like, okay, I would. And just, I just, I would do stuff like that where I'd be like, I would accept polygamy. I would be, you know, a teen bride. I don't think. I didn't like the idea, but I honestly thought like, I, I trust the prophet and I don't think they would ever ask that if it wasn't from God.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] So that's almost like. It's almost like the Jim Jones Kool Aid test. But you're doing it to yourself in your own mind. Like an Abrahamic test in your own mind.

Maven [01:09:22] Right?

John Dehlin [01:09:22] Yeah.

Maven [01:09:23] I remember reading an enzyme story.

John Dehlin [01:09:24] Almost brainwashing yourself.

Maven [01:09:25] Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:27] Right.

Maven [01:09:27] I was definitely actively working to, like, program myself, honestly. So. Yeah. So I feel like we've talked about a lot of things. I did actually want to talk about the future because I did want to go to college and I did really want to graduate. But it was definitely just, like, to be educated. Like, that was the goal, to be an educated woman. It would make you a better wife and mother. I did want to be a wife, and I was absolutely preparing for that. But anything I wanted to do besides that, like the mission. I remember watching a program about the Jerusalem center on tv, and that looked really cool. So I was like, I want to do that someday, because obviously I was going to go to byu. Like, I wouldn't. I wouldn't go anywhere else. Like, it's God's school, right?

John Dehlin [01:10:07] So, of course.

Maven [01:10:09] Yeah. And then. But I did think, like, even though I did want to do all of these things, I honestly thought there's no way I can do all of it, because I guess, like, mission. I mean, I. I could be married during that time and still do it, but I just thought, like, likely that I'll be pushing my marriage to, like, 25 or 20. Pretty old. Like, I was like, I just. I don't think I'll make it that far. You know, I'll probably have to give up one of these things, at least one. Because I knew, like, if I'm in school and I get married, you start having kids, you don't put them off. It's. It's. You don't put them off for financial reasons. You don't put them off to finish college. Even for the whole backup thing, like, I was the. That was just word play. I feel like, really the. The backup idea, because if you. If your husband needs to, like, move or, you know, start a job somewhere, like, it's your job. Your. Your education is over until later. So. Yeah. So everything was always, like, my whole future was always plan B because plan A is marriage. So I'm just planning my backups. I did want to talk about, like, my best, worst bishop, I think, and he was truly a good bishop. It's not like, stories that we have on here a lot, but at the time, I thought he was a terrible bishop. And so this is what kind of makes it Funny. And so he. First of all, he was not a white collar, like, businessman bishop. And so that was already kind of a strike for me.

Bishops, Modesty, and Religious Scrupulosity

John Dehlin [01:11:29] Blue collar bishop.

Maven [01:11:30] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] And so, I mean, you are in Apple Valley.

Maven [01:11:34] I am in Apple Valley, yeah. And so, like.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] Well, so not a lot of IBM executives.

Maven [01:11:37] Well, exactly. Yeah. But, you know, I was just like, well, you know, the Lord qualifies who he calls. So I definitely just saw it as, like, this is a really good experience for him. The Lord's gonna teach him a lot, you know, versus, like, the other bishop, where I thought, like, he is bishop because, like, he's already got the skills to be there because it, like, you know, and this guy is learning. That's kind. That's how I saw it. So. And then a couple of my experiences kind of, like, fit in with that. So there was a youth temple trip where we were doing baptisms. And this was something I just. I happened to be menstruating. And so I get cramps, really, really bad ones. And so that is the only thing that will, like, make me start asking adults around me if they have Tylenol or something. And so one had Excedrin. And so they gave that to me, which is. I think it's Tylenol, but it has a lot of caffeine in it. And it was just a little too much stimulant for my body. So this was not something I was able to figure out for several years. But at the time, I. It caused a panic attack, but I didn't know what that was. I'd never had one before. I just felt dread and doom. I felt like something really, really bad was going to happen. And of course, my only framework for interpreting that initially was the Holy Ghost, you know, like, warning me maybe, you know, but warning of what? Like, I couldn't figure out what that was. And then because we were going to the temple, I was like, you know what? Actually, I think this is maybe Satan. He doesn't want me to go to the temple. So he's making me feel really, really bad and just, like, awful so that I'll be like, oh, I'm not going to go. I'm going to stay home. So I honestly thought that, like, the moment I walked in the doors, like, it would just go away and I would feel amazing peace, you know, from being in the house of the Lord. But that's not what happened. I still felt bad. And not only that, but, like, it was getting worse and worse. And again, it was just this really awful, awful feeling. So at the time I thought that, like, it was an evil presence of some kind, either like the devil himself or, like, you know, one of his minions or something, I thought maybe I'd done some kind of a sin. And I brought this presence into the temple. And then I lost it. Like, when I thought that thought I started crying. I was just bawling. I just thought, like, this is the worst thing I've ever done, you know, like, this is the house of God. It's the most holy, special place. And I've done something to bring something evil in here. So I start crying. The adults are like, you know, what's going on? So my bishop takes me, like, we go to this little side room, and he's asking me what's wrong? And so, I mean, he did two things really great. I mean, first of all, I said, I think I sinned. And he's like, well, what have you done? And I was like, I don't know. I was like, I'm not very nice to my brother sometimes, you know, But I thought, that's kind of like a daily normal thing that you just like, keep trying to do better on, you know? I was like, I just. I can't remember. So the first thing he said was like, well, if there's something really serious the Heavenly Father wants you to repent for, like, he will make sure that you remember it. He would never do this to you for something that you don't remember. Which seems really obvious now, but, like, it wasn't to me at the time. And then after that, he just, you know, sometimes, like, we feel bad and we don't know why. So he was telling me I was fine, but I just didn't believe him because I was not feeling fine.

John Dehlin [01:14:53] This is called scrupulosity.

Maven [01:14:54] Yes. I wanted a blessing. I really thought I have something I needed him to, like, cast out of me. I really, really thought this. Like, this is how literal of believer I was. And he wouldn't do it, or if he did, I actually don't remember. If he did do it, it wouldn't have helped because.

John Dehlin [01:15:09] Because it's scrupulosity, right? It's religious ocd, caffeine

Maven [01:15:14] mixed with scrupulosity. But the stimulant needs to work itself out before anything will feel better, you know. But again, like, at the time, like, I be. He couldn't make me feel better. So I, like, he's doing something wrong here because if he had the priesthood or, you know, or it was doing things right, then I, you know, this would have fixed and it was something that troubled me for a while to, like, eventually kind of faded out of my mind. Like, why did that happen at the temple? I never figured out what I was supposed to learn from that.

John Dehlin [01:15:41] So his blessing didn't help in your mind?

Maven [01:15:43] If he gave me a blessing, I just. I honestly don't remember if he gave me one or not, but the result would have been the same either way.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] So you still felt crummy, which you associated with being demonic spirits?

Maven [01:15:54] Yeah, it was just. It was just doom. This is dread. There's something really bad.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] So you brought evil spirits to the Lord's holy temple, and that's really bad.

Maven [01:16:02] That's what I thought. And he didn't, like, confirm that.

John Dehlin [01:16:05] And your bishop couldn't fix it?

Maven [01:16:06] Yeah, no, didn't fix it. Another thing that happened was just, like, a random memory. And this, I think, happened probably before the temple, but I just remembered something silly that I had done as a kid, like, with another boy in my class. And almost. It's hard to kind of explain, but basically it was just like. I don't. Just like, the edge of our pants kind of pulled it down a little bit, like, to show her hip, and. And the boy, like, touched it. It was really just hips, but we were like. I know. We thought we touched each other's butts. Like, he did the same thing. I did a touch. You know, it's just something really juvenile, right? It's. It's so embarrassing to talk about it now, but I was just like, I know. This is a story. We touched. We touched the butt, right? Yeah, Like Finding Nemo. I touched the butt anyway when I. It was something I totally forgot about, but then I, like, remembered as a teenager. And of course, there's all this. This, like, Law of Chastity stuff, right? So when I remembered it, I was like, oh, my gosh, I have violated the law of chastity. Like, I have done something really awful. And it's funny now, but at the time, I was devastated. I really, really thought I. I was like. All the shame, all the embarrassment because I need to talk to the bishop. I need to repent. Like, I'm not going to be able to take the sacrament. My parents are going to know. And I think part of it being, like, so juvenile made it all the more embarrassing for me. I almost just wonder if I would have felt less embarrassing if it was actually, like, a real thing, because they would have understood that. But they. I just thought they'd be like, why did you do that? You know, I don't know. So. But I don't know what to do because I. I get just the shame of it. I. I don't know. I don't want to do it, but I know that I have to. Like, that's the only way to get clean, is to talk to the bishop. But if I ask to talk to the bishop after church, they're gonna know. Everyone's gonna know. So, luckily for me, there was a youth activity in Apple Valley, and our bishop was, like, dropping kids off at home. And it just so happened I was going to be the last one dropped off. So I was like, okay. Like, I've got this, like, moment where it's just going to be me and the bishop between this. This last kid and then me. So I bring it up then. So I confess. Like, I tell him what I did, and I'm sobbing, I'm crying. I'm so embarrassed to even be saying it, you know, and. And I just feel just so sinful and just awful. It was just really, really bad. And so, like, I get done again, like, wiping the tears away, telling him what I did. And, you know, he tells me, you know, when kids are young, it's very normal for them to be curious about their bodies and also about the bodies of the other gender. And, you know, he said it's normal and it's not a sin. And so I want to tell you that you're okay. We don't need to do anything else. Just make sure you live the law of chastity now and you're good, you're fine. It's just, like, super great. Yeah. Like, that is like. But at the time, I was just like, this guy does not know how to bishop. Like, he is doing it wrong, you know, like, he. You know. But at that point, like, I was just relieved to have confessed, and I just thought, like, this is on his head now. Like, if he's not doing it right and I was supposed to do all this, I felt like, yeah, the sin is on his head now. I did my part. So, you know, I'm. I'm totally fine, like, not having this public shame and embarrassment and having to tell my parents, like, why I can't take the sacrament and all this kind of stuff. But I really did think, like, he's just. He's a bad bishop. Like, I mean. I mean, he's trying, he's learning, but he's not doing it right anyway, so, like, those are my teen years. I don't think there's any, like, other major stories. No, there is There is one more. And again, this also goes just with the like every. All the clothes that we had, they were always like from thrift stores. So when we moved back to Utah, it was always like the di. And I've also just never been very like fashionably forward. So even though like you can get nice stuff at thrift store, it was just always cheap stuff. I never like, liked my clothing or was ever into fashion. It always just kind of stressed me out, trends and things like that, because I could never like, keep up or fit in in that kind of a way. But there was one time, and again, this was from the thrift store. I think my mom had bought me this red dress and it was all red, but it was also like completely covered in lace. And it was pretty modest, but it was kind of borderline. So even at the time that I got it, I was kind of like, I don't know if this is really like because of the scrupulosity. I'm kind of like on the border here. And I didn't like thinking that I was maybe on the border, but it came down to my knees. I think the best way to describe it is just like a weather woman, like someone on the news that kind of. I mean, it'd be a form fitting dress, but not super tight or anything. But usually it kind of goes down to the knees. And it was, you know, the collar was high, it had wide shoulders and it had sleeves, but like, I guess like here, like where the sleeve kind of ends, from this point all the way down, it was just lace. So it was something I knew like garments wouldn't go in, even though I'm obviously too young for that. But I know, like, because they're like, some of it would show on the sleeve. So that was another thing that kind of made it borderline for me. And then just the fact that it went to. To my knees meant I had to like really be sure to sit ladylike, you know. So it just kind of. And I was developing a figure and this was like the first thing that kind of showed that. And so again, like, technically it was modest, but it was borderline. So I only wore it to like one family event. And so I liked it, but it just hung in my closet and. But my mom liked it too, on me. And so like Sunday after Sunday she would be like, why don't you wear that red dress? You know, you should wear that one. You look really good in it. Wear that red dress. And I just always said it was a bit much for church, so I. But finally I caved one day and I wore it, and everything went fine. I did feel good in it, is that. It's like, this is really the only dress I ever felt in that I. I felt good in. But I got out early in Young Women that day or something. So I remember I was standing in the hallway, and I'm leaning against the wall, and I was just off in my own mind somewhere, just waiting for, like, you know, Relief Society and priesthood to get out so we can go home. But there were some. I think I was a Miami, which would be that I was 14 or 15 at this time, and there were priests down the hall from me, so they were 16 and 17. I think that's the ages for them. So I was in my own mind. But sometimes, like, when you know somebody's talking about you, you just kind of snap to the present. So I had a moment like that because I heard one of the boys say, why do girls dress like that? And I knew I was the only person in the hallway, like, besides those guys. Yeah. So. Well, I'm first. I'm trying to check, like, in my. Wait, wait, is there somebody else in the hallway? You know, because they're behind me, and I definitely. Like, the last thing I want to do is turn around so that they know I heard them, so I just. I just freeze. So that's what one of them said. Like, why do girls dress like that? And then the other guy said, like, they think it makes them look good, but it doesn't. Oh, yeah. I'm getting emotional now. It destroyed me at the time.

John Dehlin [01:22:51] How old are you again?

Maven [01:22:52] 14 or 15. Yeah, but I thought they were right, you know, like, these were, like, righteous boys, you know? I think one was the son of the bishop or, like, the first counselor, you know, and they were. They were the good Mormon family, like, with the multiple stories and the beige walls and the family portrait, you know? And so I remember thinking, like, yeah, I really did something wrong here. I knew, you know, Like, I knew it was wrong, but, like, I let my mom. Like, my mom pressure me into wearing this, you know, so. And that was another thing. Like, now I'm mad at her again, you know, because. Yeah, because I wasn't, like, what I was supposed to be, so I. You know, and I kind of felt like, man in the future even, because, like, again, because these boys are, like, two years older than me. They're gonna go on missions, and then they're gonna come back, and, like, that's when I'm gonna be, like, graduated in marrying age, I'm like, what if this is the reason why? Like, I don't, like, I'm written off by a worthy like, RM in the future priesthood holder. Because they're gonna remember this, you know, I saw them as like, really righteous about it, you know, and so. And I thought it was a good lesson. Like, this is. This is a good lesson for me, you know, to not push through the borders, you know. And so. Yeah, so like, what it should have

John Dehlin [01:24:03] been, it should have been this moment of like, you're coming of age and. And you're wanting to feel pretty and you're wanting to feel loved and accepted. And it could have been this beautiful moment of acceptance and instead it's this moment of shame and loathing and vanity and oh, I'm so sorry.

Maven [01:24:20] So like, I cried in the bed. So, like, being the. I was gonna be the first one done with church and like, waiting for everyone else, but then they ended up waiting for me because I was trying to like, get it under control, you know? Cause I didn't want to talk about it with my family. So. So I like, try to get it under control and then just like that 15 minute ride, just really trying to like, keep back because again, I don't want to talk to my family about it. So it's just a really long ride where I'm just really like, bottling it up till I can get home. And then. And I threw the dress away and I had to go through extra steps because, like, my mom had seen me throw away stuff before, like, that she didn't think. So I knew, like, if my mom saw it in the trash, like, she would be like, why are you throwing this? She really liked that dress. And so I made sure to like, put it in the bathroom trash and then like wrap it up and then put it in the kitchen trash when the kitchen trash was full and I put more stuff on top of it. And then I. And like, I did all of this to like, take it out to the. To be sure my mom did not see that I was throwing it out, you know? And then like throughout the years after, she'd be like, whatever happened to that red dress? Like, you looked really good in it. And I'd just be like, I don't know, I can't find it. You know, I just. Yeah. So anyway, I'm so sorry. So that was. Yeah, but I mean, again, like, I just. I thought that that was a good lesson for me. So that's like the teen stuff. Oh, no, no, there's more Just kidding, just kidding. All right. Anti Mormons. Really quick. I had said I had learned about from anti Mormons that Joseph. I really loved Joseph Smith and I thought he like a martyr. I thought he was the greatest person ever. And I really thought like, the reason why people don't like Mormons and the reason why they don't like Joseph Smith is because like all these anti Mormons just like lie about them. They just say like the worst, most awful things and then people just believe it. And so it was like a really early Internet forum kind of a thing that I was like, I'm just going to tell them what Joseph Smith was really like and then they'll know the other side of the story. And then I quickly learned that these guys were all dark. They already were under Satan's spell and they were a lost cause and this is not my job. So I quickly kind of got out of there because I didn't feel good, right. And then I had a, like one teacher at the school that was not a Mormon. And I remember her telling my friend and I, because we were really good friends with her and she told us one day, like she had heard from somebody that used to be Mormon that there's a part in the temple ceremony where like some like you're. They touch your genitals, like you're, you're naked and then they bless your genitals. And I remember my friend and I just like just. It was just the most unbelievable thing that. Yeah, absolutely. And I was just like, man, these anti. More. They will make up the worst stuff possible. Like, this was just like the most degenerate thing I could think of anybody like, making up about the temple, you know, and so like, of course my friend and I hadn't been yet, but we're like, no, that is not what happens in the temple. Absolutely. That is an anti Mormon lie. These, you know, they just hate us. We're, you know, persecuted. We're giving this narrative. So she's like, oh, okay, okay. You know, so I go home and I go tell my mom, like, you, like, you will never believe what I heard the anti Mormon say. And I tell her and then like, only for her to kind of be like, well, well, like you wear a shield so you're not completely naked. You know, I, I was not expecting the conversation to go that way. You know, by the time I went like, there wasn't the shield. Like they had changed that. But for my mom, and at that time there was an open shield where the sides and, and she's like, and it's not touching your genitals, but it's just like. Like your hip at the side, you know, or just like your breastbone here. So, yeah, that was kind of like the disturbing thing was just how much truth there was to it. But I still, you know, they're still lying. They still made it sound worse than it actually is. But that was just, like, one thing.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] I had a similar moment at BYU as a freshman before my mission, where the God makers had come out. And it's like they're claiming that you wear a green apron in the temple. And I'm like, no, you only wear white in the temple. And one of my friends who had just gone through the endowment for his mission, he kind of looks at me and kind of just. He can't tell me, but he just kind of opens his eyes wide and I'm like, whoa. The God makers of the reality, the

Maven [01:28:17] fact that they can't say no, that's not true, then, you know. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:28:22] Yeah. When you find out the anti Mormons were telling the truth, it can be disturbing.

Maven [01:28:27] Right? But see, that's what made it even more worse, because they were mixing truth in with the lies. You know, partial truth, Very devious. Devious people. I remember in seminary, we actually briefly talked about the Hoffman case, and this was a rift, obviously wasn't part of the lesson. But again, like, anti Mormons hate the church. You become a sociopathic bomber. Right? That's. That's how it goes. So I. I had learned about this, like, way back then. But one thing I remember my teacher actually kind of making fun of, he was like, there were, there were. I mean, because obviously if you don't know anything about the real origins, if you just had the sanitized version of church history, the idea of a salamander, like, giving disinformation to Joseph Smith is stupid. It sounded stupid. And so my seminary teacher was saying, like, there were members of the church who. I mean, obviously there were members who left over it because they believed it foolishly. And then there were members who believed it but still stayed. And they were justified. And they wrote articles or saying, like, how, like this could be actually like a reference to an angel. You know, things like that. We're all kind of laughing about it. Right? But I know now that article explaining and justifying it that way was written by Elder Oaks, whose picture was on our wall in the seminary building. And so I wonder, like, did he not know that it was Oakes that wrote that? Or did he know and he was still Kind of just making fun, you know? And then the other problem with that was like, why are we making fun of the people who stayed in the church? Even though they believed the lie, at least they stayed. Right. They didn't lose their salvation like the other ones. So I was kind of feeling a little uncomfortable about that. And I just had this brief thought that I kind of pushed out because I don't have to worry about it. But, like, would I want to believe it in a lie if that's what it took for me to stay in the church? That was an uncomfortable kind of a thought.

John Dehlin [01:30:10] Another way to phrase that is if the church wasn't true, would you want to know?

Maven [01:30:14] I didn't think of it that way.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] No, no, I'm saying that's a. That's like a different way of thinking about a similar.

Maven [01:30:19] Yeah, I already. I took for granted that the church was true.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] Yeah.

Maven [01:30:23] So.

John Dehlin [01:30:23] Yeah.

Maven [01:30:23] Yeah. But, yeah, like, if I had to justify something that actually maybe I didn't really need to because it wasn't true in the first place. And so, you know, whoever was justified didn't have to anymore once it was obvious, you know, it came out as a fraud. But, yeah, that was an uncomfortable idea to think that you would. To keep your testimony. You would believe something that was not true.

Marriage Expectations and Family Journals

John Dehlin [01:30:44] So.

Maven [01:30:44] Yeah. But again, I didn't. I don't have to worry about that. So I guess I do want to say just really quickly, faith was just something really easy for me. I. I really enjoy watching stories because everyone experiences Mormonism differently. And so I know, like, a lot of people, they. They're like. I never believed. It never connected. I feel like my brother was like, that. He did. Nothing connected that way for him. So he was out of the church, like, before he was even out of the house. It made sense. But for me, I just. I really accepted everything I learned, like, as a kid, all the time, primary lessons. I think I just had no reason not to believe it. So I really just. And I, like, held it strongly. So. And then as far as, like, dating and stuff goes, I think. Well, I mentioned in. I. In sixth grade, I had my, like, puppy love kind of a thing, and it was just. It was a boy from my class, but. And our parents actually worked together, so they were actually pretty okay with it. And when we had an actor after school activity, I would hang out at his house with his family, and my parents would pick me up there. But anyway, we're 11 or 12, but we're already, like, we're getting ready to go into young men and young women. And we're already getting like these purity culture things. So people were already just kind of like telling me to be careful, basically. And so, like, we decided we had to talk. Like, we decided we wouldn't even hold hands then because we were too young, you know, and someone really had given me the idea that like, well, if you, once you start holding hands, like that becomes boring, so then you move on to the next thing. So I was very worried about this slippery slope. I didn't know where the point of no return is. And so it's better just to not even start. But I mean, as alluded to, I identify as asexual. And this boy came out as gay shortly after high school. So I think we would have been okay holding hands. That's all I'm gonna say. And then I would always, like, I would have almost, almost every year I had at least some kind of a crush on a classmate, whether or not it was returned. But even if I did, like, if it was returned, it just always kind of settled into a platonic friendship, a best friendship. And I always really loved that. And so. And I always thought like, that's where. And that's the ideal relationship anyway, right? You want to marry like your best friend. So. So that's how things were as far as that goes. And. But again, like the slippery slope, I was never like, really very touchy, but it was very flirty and it was easier for me to get along with guys than with girls. So. So yeah. But when I finally got to be 16, just at like a few months in, I had one of these platonic guy friendships, right? But then one of his friends was a 19 year old who's getting ready to go on his mission and he started liking me and I was extremely flattered by that. So I did start going on dates. Again, not dating because I'm 16 and I can't steady date. So I have to intermix it with dates from other guys so that I'm not steady dating. But. But yeah, he was like my main thing. And he had a leather jacket, which I thought was like pretty cool at the time. So yeah, I'm. I don't. Just made me feel like really grown up. Because he's 19, you know, he's an adult, he's been out of high school for a year. I still have two years left. So like, I felt like, I mean, for him to be interested in me, I thought I was really lucky. So luckily, like, that could obviously go very wrongly, but for me it didn't you know, he went on his mission, he didn't ask me to wait, which is like, I don't even know if that's a thing anymore. But it was still very much a thing, like part of the culture then this idea of like, of waiting for your missionary. And so many of my friends really thought that I was super lucky to be dating this guy now because by the time he gets back from his two year mission, I would be 18 and graduating. And then I don't have to like, wait like most people do for their peers and have this awkward stage of where you're waiting for a guy like, you know, to turn 21 when the guy does. Yeah, I, I would. I had my guy, like already lined up. And I think my mom really liked that too. And adults in my ward even were like, oh, you know, like, asking me, are you gonna wait for him? But by this point, one thing that I had learned, despite all the, you know, messages about marriage, and I did want that, I did think that one mistake that my mother had made was marrying the first guy that came along. And I did not have to do that. And not only that, but I had recognized, like, my mom never had a chance to, like, be her own person and find out what made her happy. So at this point I felt like I need some time outside of the house, like outside of my family, on my own to at least figure myself out. I only thought I, like a year or two, I was enough. But I felt like I really did need that before getting married. I mean, to even know that I was marrying the right person. I had that sense. And so I knew from the beginning I didn't want to wait for him. But it really threw me off when, because I thought that was a smart thing. And I thought it made sense when my peers would think, like, that's romantic, you can get married at 18 when you graduate. But for the adults in my ward to also seem to be like, thinking along those lines, I thought was strange at the time.

John Dehlin [01:35:39] So you're saying, was it your mom's journal that.

Maven [01:35:42] Yes. Yeah. This was another attempt of my mom, I think, to try to connect with me by giving me her journal so that I could see how miserable she was. And she was. I learned a couple things from. One was like, don't only write in my journal when I'm miserable, because I was doing that too, because it was really difficult to get through. But she really did end, like almost every entry with like, I just can't wait until I find my priesthood holder. And we get married in the temple. We live happily ever after. That some version of that was at the end of, like, almost every single entry. And so that's when I realized, like, I'm on the same path as my mother. I am going the same way that she is. And that's where things, like, really start to diverge. That's where I was like, I need to be happy as a person myself and not expect that to come from my husband, which I had been at that point. I just thought, you know, love, true love, that's all you need. And that will. You know, I think. I think all kids kind of take for granted that their parents ever loved each other at one point, because that was another thing. I randomly came across a. A photo of theirs, a really small one. It was just. It was in a book. So I'd been flipping through, and I found this wedding picture from them. And it was again, like, the relationship was not good at this point. I remember looking at it, and they're smiling faces. And then. And it hit me like, oh, my gosh, they really did love each other then. It hasn't always been, like, how I know them. They were young, like me. They felt this kind of a way and that. So that was another, like, something went wrong. I got to figure out what went wrong. So I don't do that. So, yeah, so that's what happened there. And then as far as, like. Like, LGBTQ issues were starting to come up. And so this is, I guess, another orthodoxy thing. I. Extremely naive about a lot of sexual things there. Bill Clinton had a particular scandal that he's well known for. And I remember at the time, I. I have a pretty good vocabulary. I'm trying to figure out, like, what exactly what happened, because I don't know, I'm thinking, like, well, you know, when I take an oral test in school, that's a spoken test. So what is this spoken sex that they're talking about on the news all the time? I couldn't quite figure it out. So finally I asked my mom, like, what's oral sex? And she totally passes the buck to my dad. Really, Mom? It's a sex question. I feel like the same gender parent should be answering it. But no, she passes it totally. So I go out to my dad. He was outside, I think, mowing or something, and so I ask him. And of course, he attempts to. He. He's like, ask your mom. So I said, I did. She said to ask you. And he was just like, I'll tell her. Thanks. And I don't remember said. But he explained it enough for me to be properly disgusted. And I would like, that's exactly what a degenerate Democrat would do. They have no morals. So I guess that is something I skipped. Just part of the politics thing was really this idea that Democrats and atheists and scientists in general were people that were really genuinely bent on destroying America's freedom and destroying religion. They hate God and this is what they do. So initially it really just very black and white, thinking we are the heroes and they are villains.

John Dehlin [01:38:56] Liberals hate the country and religion and God, Conservatives love God, Communism.

Maven [01:39:01] Ezra Taft Benson, you can't be, you know, without the mentions of communism and any kind of socialism, anything that's going to help somebody else is going to lead to communism and just destroy the country and all of those kinds of things too. Like, anything about. Yeah, just anything that would benefit. That's the front. That's the lie that they use to dupe you. So really there were no good Democrats. They were either like, you were part of the elite, part of the agenda, you know, or you were duped into believing the fake agenda, but you're supporting Satan. Really, like, that is really how I saw things. So. And. And one of the, like, key ways that they were setting about to destroy the country and destroy religion was through the gay agenda. So I remember my father and an uncle coming home from a gun show or a car show or something that had happened in St. George. And they came and they were really upset. They were talking about, like, two guys that they had seen holding hands. Like they had used the f. Slur, which I heard on the playground and stuff at school. That wasn't really new, but I. I didn't actually know what it meant. So this is the first time I actually asked, like, what does that mean? And so my dad explained to me. And then again, like, because I'm naive, I'm like. But like, how does that work? You know? And then when he explained that to me, I was just really, like, grossed out. I was just like, oh, why would somebody do that? And my dad said, like, they're degenerate. Like, that was the answer. Like, that's why gay people do what they do. And it didn't really answer me, but I just trusted my dad. So I was like, I guess that must be it. I remember, like, Ellen was also really popular then. And so even now, like, if I'm going to say her whole name, I have to think carefully about her last name because it's just so common. Like, Ellen degenerate Like, that's. That was her show. Yeah. And so, like, that's what, like, she would be called. So. And I, I learned that past prophets said, like, being gay is a choice. And again, like, I can trust the prophets. That's what's so great about being part of the true church, is that we can get this revelation. So when things are really confusing like this, where people are saying, like, this is a. Like, this is not a choice. I was born this way. I can't help it. Like, that's how, like, I. We can know that they're lying because we have prophets that tell us the truth. So I was in, like. And this was also, like, for underserved people. Like, because of the. The income thing. I was part of a program called Upward Bound, which, like, allows you to start college classes as a high school student. So I was doing this summer program and I had a teacher. It was like a communication 110, you know, just really low level class. And this is. This was like the first liberal Mormon I met. So I was really unsure about him because, like, he was claiming to be Mormon, but he was believing some very different things than what I thought makes you a good Mormon. So there were like, I guess a few red flags about him, I thought. But there was one day in class he was talking about a friend of his who was gay. And he was telling all the, like, horrible things that happened to this person. They had lost jobs, they had been kicked out of, I mean, their family, but even like, housing rentals, things like that they'd been beat up enough to be hospitalized before. It was really, really awful stuff. And I felt really bad. I never, I mean, even when I thought it was wrong and it was, I never thought like that meant they deserved this kind of treatment, you know, But I was still feeling really uncomfortable with the way the conversation was going because it, you know, obviously was, you know, pro gay marriage. And I did not believe in that. And so I remember again, that feeling that the need, like, I need to say something. I need to. To stand for what's right or, you know, or I, you know, anyway, so I just, I didn't like that I was being made to feel uncomfortable for the consequences of somebody's unrighteous choice, even if they didn't deserve those consequences. So I speak up at one point and I said, like. But he chose that, though. Chose he ch. Like to be gay. Right? He chose it. And it's so embarrassing now, but, like, my teacher just, just like lost it. And I think rightfully, but I think I did not do well, like, with men yelling at me. So this is like a really. He started yelling. Yeah. Like, how dare you? Kind of. He's like, why would somebody choose that? And he lists all the things again. He was kicked out of his family. He. Like this, you know, he was kicked out, he was hospitalized. He. Like, anywhere he goes, there's this risk, there's that. Why would somebody choose that?

John Dehlin [01:43:14] That.

Maven [01:43:14] Tell me why. Tell me a reason why. And I had nothing. I didn't know why somebody. It certainly didn't seem worth it, you know, for a choice, especially, like, if you are attracted to women. Yeah. Like, why would you do something with someone you're not attracted to? For all. It was just the first. It just really, really hit home. And so I didn't say anything, but it's. It unsettled me for days because, like, I couldn't come up with a reason. So, like, I. I think it is. You know, they were born that way. Maybe that's true, but the prophet said it wasn't. So that was like, the first time, I think, could the prophet be wrong about something really big like this? And it was really uncomfortable for me, but I did eventually get there because I know, like, when, you know, my friend came out after he came out to me right before I went on my mission. So it was just a couple years, you know, out of high school. I already knew for sure at that point. So I don't remember really a specific moment, because it wasn't then. But maybe it just kind of, I guess maybe slowly settled in from that. It's not a choice. But I still kind of had to go through the stages of, like, all right, it's not a choice, but they still shouldn't do it, you know, like, I'm single, they're single. We're both not having sex, you know, unless we're married. And I might not ever get married, so in that we're equal that way, you know, which is not true, you know, but anyway, that. That was like my first, I guess, like, first time really understanding the issues, like, around LGBT stuff, so.

Navigating Sexuality and Asexual Identity

John Dehlin [01:44:48] And thank you for sharing.

Maven [01:44:49] Yeah. Like, just the idea profit was wrong.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] Thanks for being vulnerable.

Maven [01:44:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] Yeah.

Maven [01:44:56] I think that's basically it. I mean, I didn't take sex ed in school. There was, like, a health class. It was opt in, so you had to get your parents, like, to sign if you wanted, like, that part. And I didn't even ask my parents because I. I thought if I asked them, they would think that I wanted sex. So I Definitely didn't want them thinking that. So. Yeah, but that's. That's high school. And then, I mean, I graduated. I didn't wait for the missionaries. So I guess I could say real quick, I. I actually didn't end up even applying to BYU because I went with a friend to tour Snow College. She had wanted to go there, and when I went there, I felt like I felt the spirit there, and I felt like that's where I needed to go. So when it actually came time to apply for colleges, I did not apply for byu. I went to Snow.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] So, yeah, so I guess you're graduating from high school in some ways. A very orthodox Mormon.

Maven [01:45:48] Yeah. Graduated from seminary, of course. Scripture mastery. I did all of that. So, yeah,

John Dehlin [01:45:57] maybe on the lower SES sort of side of the spectrum, but also determined not to become your mom and not to become your parents.

Maven [01:46:07] Right.

John Dehlin [01:46:07] Some. Some things on your metaphorical shelf. Some items on your metaphorical shelf. You're precocious. You're a reader, You're a thinker.

Maven [01:46:16] I knew, like, the shelf thing. I knew that talk. I had read that talk at, like, as a teen. And so I did, like, going through life, if there was something I did think of it as, like, I'm putting this on my shelf. Like, that is how I thought of things. So it's kind of funny. That's such a big thing on this side of it. It was always a part of my life since my teens, the shelf. I do want to say this real quick because I was being conditioned to be willing and able to give up everything. So I actually, and this is something that has stayed with me is a kind of a superstition about making plans that are too solid, because I thought by doing that, you're almost inviting the Lord to test you in real life. So anytime I heard a story of someone, like a woman who said she didn't want to go on a mission but then felt compelled to by the Spirit, or the reverse, always wanted to, but then she met a guy and she felt the spirit said she needed to get married. And even guys like, I wanted to be a seminary teacher, and that didn't work out. Or I was going to play football, and that didn't work out. There was just kind of this idea that, like, if there are hopes or plans or things that you really, really want, if you want them too much, like, God might have different plans for you. So even talking about it was always, I want to. If I get to, I will. I hope I can serve a mission. I'd like, to graduate college. I always kind of worded things that way because I always wanted to be open to go wherever the Lord would have me go.

John Dehlin [01:47:34] I love it.

Maven [01:47:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:36] So where does your Mormon story pick up?

Maven [01:47:40] Pick up from here?

John Dehlin [01:47:41] Yeah.

Maven [01:47:43] So it picks up with me going to Snow College instead of byu.

John Dehlin [01:47:48] And you didn't do byui so my

Maven [01:47:51] friend wanted to do a tour of Snow College, and she was too shy to go on her own, so I went there with her and I felt the spirit there. So I.

John Dehlin [01:48:00] This is Ephraim, Utah.

Maven [01:48:02] This is an Ephraim, Utah. Yeah. It's near Manti, where the Manti Temple, if people are familiar with that, and the pageant that used to be there. Yeah. Ephraim is just north of that. And that's where Snow College is.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] And is it snowy at snow?

Maven [01:48:15] You know what stands out to me more, I think, would be the turkeys. There's a lot of turkey farms. And when the wind blows the right way, you're very aware of that. So, like, that is a part of campus life.

John Dehlin [01:48:27] It's known as a bit of a. Like, Manti is known as some fringy fundamentalist Mormon groups. It's kind of viewed as a bit of a fundamentalist.

Maven [01:48:38] I think I was aware of that, actually. Yeah. I just. In the. Like, with just the campus life, really.

John Dehlin [01:48:43] So you said you felt the spirit.

Maven [01:48:45] Yeah, it was really. I mean, and I had been on a lot of college tours as part of the program that I was in, but they always. It's really out of the way, so I had never been there. So. Yeah, I don't know. I just felt like it was the right place to be and. And so did my friends. So we both ended up there, but not for each other, but for separate programs that we found there that we were interested in. So. Yeah, so I didn't even apply to byu. Didn't even know, like, I was kind of like, if I could get in or not. But then again, like, there's an application fee, and if I know that I feel like I'm supposed to go to snow, like, that's too much of a feat, like, for vanity to know if I would have gotten in or not.

John Dehlin [01:49:22] Holy Ghost for the wind.

Maven [01:49:23] Yep. There you go.

John Dehlin [01:49:24] Yeah.

Maven [01:49:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:25] What evidence need you more than the gift of the. The testimony of the Holy Ghost?

Maven [01:49:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:30] Yeah.

Maven [01:49:31] I felt like that was the right place to be. So.

John Dehlin [01:49:33] Okay.

Maven [01:49:34] Yeah. And I'm finding. I think probably it was better for me than. It's a small school, you know, So I think. I don't know. Provo might have eaten me up a little bit. Who knows?

John Dehlin [01:49:43] Yeah.

Maven [01:49:43] Never know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:44] Okay, so you leave home and go to Ephraim.

Maven [01:49:47] Yes, Ephraim, Utah. I go to Snow College to just. Yeah. Start my associate's degree. They had a teaching English as a Second language program there, the TESOL program. And so that's what I was interested in. And the reason why I liked it was, I think maybe just from being in the military and having lived in Germany, I did have kind of a travel bug, and I did like, learning about other places and other cultures. It was just fascinating to me. Different clothing, different ways of thinking, things like that. So. So this program was interesting to me, but also I felt like this would be a perfect backup, you know, for jobs. And so it's. It's really.

John Dehlin [01:50:30] To motherhood, you mean?

Maven [01:50:31] Yeah, to motherhood and in a marriage. Because, I mean, with. With Tsaw, you could teach in the country, you can teach out of the country. So, you know, like, if my husband traveled, it didn't matter wherever, like, because he's just a big blink to me. Right. So I just thought that wherever he ends up, if he's, like, in the state department or something, I could always find a job somewhere. If we needed it, I could do full time if we need to. I could do part time if we need to. I could just do private tutoring and just have people in my home, because you can do it in the U. You can do it anywhere. So it just seemed perfect. And I would get to meet. Meet, you know, the international students, which was, I think, the highlight of. Of being there for me. Yeah. So actually, before I. I went there a little bit early. And the reason why is because. So I actually graduated a semester, not a semester, a quarter early from high school, but I did stay to, like, finish seminary and whatnot. And as I. The closer I got to leaving, the more excited I was getting about starting my new and future life. And so what I didn't notice happening at the time was my mother getting more and more sad about it, which makes sense now, of course. Like the. The only girl and the oldest kid leaving the nest. Like, that's a sad moment for anyone. And I. I wasn't seeing that, though. And so tensions between my mother and I, like, Rose again, because I think because of these miscommunications.

John Dehlin [01:51:55] Well, developmentally, your job is to differentiate and to leave home, not to bond more with your parents.

Maven [01:52:00] Right. During that time, I think my mom was hurting, and the more excited I was, it seemed to Hurt her more, I think I did not see it at all. I was completely blind to this. And it wasn't until after that I kind of, like, realized and maybe pieced some things together.

John Dehlin [01:52:14] It was your job to be blind to it, by the way.

Maven [01:52:16] Okay, appreciate that. I was talking about it constantly, just nonstop. I got the schedule. I was picking out my classes. I'm just so excited to be out on my own and to be picking all these things, looking for where I'm going to live and. And, you know, all this stuff. And so I remember there was one time where my mom invited me to go grocery shopping with her. And this is Napa Valley. So normally, if we did grocery shopping, Hurricane did have a grocery store. It didn't have a Walmart then, but it does now. It's a lot bigger now. So normally, like, for a bit, we would do a big trip. We would go all the way to St. George to go to the Walmart. It would be a big. It's not a quick run to the store. Right. So. So it's like 30 minutes to get to St. George and then a couple hours shopping, just really, like, you know, bulking up on everything, and then 30 minutes back home. So, like, for this instant, she asked me if I wanted to go with her, and I said no, but I didn't. The question wasn't literal. What she really meant was, will you spend time with me? And I did not see that at all. So when I said no, that was, no, I don't want to spend time with you. To her, you know, there's this half hour, like, talking time, just us girls, like, going there and coming back. And so it would be stuff like that. I think that really hurt my mom. And so I. I was at work, I think, and then I came home one day to find that everything in my room had been shoved into my brother's room because they had always shared, like, ever since my youngest brother was old enough. And then the older, younger brother, the closest to my age, all of his stuff was moved into my room.

John Dehlin [01:53:58] You moved out before you moved out, right?

Maven [01:54:01] Yeah. And that was really distressing to me at the time. It was really, really unsettling. So it was definitely, like, a big deal. And I did not see that coming at all. And I was already, like, I said, I'm already planning on moving out. So I didn't know why my mom couldn't just, like, wait a couple more months, you know. But of course, my. My brother's been wanting his own room for ages, forever. So of Course, he was on board for that. And, you know, so it was mainly the two of them. And my father had said, like, he was there, but, I mean, he was outnumbered. So he did say, like, I don't think this is a good idea. But that was about all that he could really do, I guess, at that point. And so, yeah, so my youngest brother was still in there. He was like 7 or 8 at the time. He was really sweet about it. But, yeah, it just really. It was really, really, really unsettling. And so I refused to sleep in there. There was a bunk bed. All my stuff was in there. And I would hang out there sometimes, but I slept on the couch for two weeks. And I just made plans to move early. So I found a place that was open in the summer. Like, that would take me for just, like a month. And then. So I actually ended up moving even earlier because I just didn't want to stay home anymore. But, yeah, so that was kind of like a weird, kind of shocking thing that I wasn't expecting. But my youngest brother was really, really sweet about it because I really. I mean, I was in there once. I think I was texting on my phone. I did have a cell phone at that point, but texting was also, like, where you had to hit the button a whole bunch of times, like, to do an S or whatever. Anyway, it was quite an endeavor, but that's what I was doing. And he came in and he knocked on the door. And so I said, you don't have to knock on the door. This is your room. And he's like, I just wanted to make sure you didn't want to be alone or something. And I just thought, like, this is really, like, this is the youngest kid, and. And it's his room that, like, his older sister was just shoved into. You know, he didn't have any say in this either, but he was, like, the sweetest about it. And really, like, it seemed like the only one that cared about my feelings at the time. So I know that's just something that's always stood out to me about him. But anyway, yeah, so I'm out two weeks later. And then my mom was really hurt by that, too. She got really kind of tearful. And at the time, I was just like, why? This is what you did, you know? Anyway, so I'm there early, and then I met. So I met a guy who ended up becoming my boyfriend. So I can't remember. He helped me with moving or something like that. He just happened to be walking by, and he was in my ward. So, yeah, we started hanging out a lot. And so he's actually a Japanese Katsu. He's one of the international students, not one that I ever ended up working with because he was out of the T Cell program. But he had come. He was not a member when he came to Snow College, but he did end up, like, meeting with the missionaries and having some good Mormon friends. And so he had been a convert, I think maybe a couple months to maybe a year by the time that I met him. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:57] And then did that affect your Mormon journey at all?

Maven [01:57:02] I mean, I mean, a little bit. I think

John Dehlin [01:57:08] you're trying to figure out who you are, right?

Maven [01:57:10] Yeah, yeah. And so. And, and then I meet a guy right off the bat. Right. And so.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] And you're supposed to get married, so.

Maven [01:57:16] Right. You know what's funny is actually, like, we became a couple before I realized that we were a couple. And part of it was, yeah, just like, miscommunication, but also just the, like the Mormon dating standard is that you're supposed to be dating around until you go exclusive. So he had asked me, like, like, do you want to date or will you date me? Or something like that, and he meant exclusively, which I did not catch. I just thought he was asking that out, like on a date, you know what I mean? So I can't remember when it got reconciled, but I was fine with it. I did like him. So I was pleased to realize that he had been my boyfriend for two weeks before I was aware of that fact. So anyway, so that's kind of how it went. So it's kind of like, ended up up in the relationship before I even realized it. But he was like. He was sweet. He was a really great guy. I mean, in the end, I think it's. It's really good that it didn't work out. But we were like. He helped me. He was very social, so I think that's where like, my sociality came from. That first year was just like, through everybody that knew him.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] And so you mentioned off camera that this is the only boyfriend you've ever had.

Maven [01:58:26] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:58:27] And you. So you dated him for how long?

Maven [01:58:28] We dated for a year. And by then he wanted to spend. Serve a mission, so he made the decision to do that. And yeah, so like, he, he went to the temple and everything, of course, which I couldn't do because I hadn't, you know, I hadn't gone through any of that kind of stuff yet. But yeah, he wanted. He just like, he really loved the gospel. He really took to it. And so he, he wanted to, he, and he got his call like back to his home country. So initially like I was going, I was thinking about waiting for him, like that was the plan. But he, I actually got Dear Jane. So he Dear Janed me like as, as a missionary. But it was actually, it was really a good thing. The relationship was not very good by the time we were getting to the end of it. And I think because I was young, I didn't, I didn't realize it because it was good at first, you know. And so I think as things started to not be so good, I kept trying to think like there's a way we can fix this and like kind of bring it back. And some of it was culture. Like a lot of times we, there were just misunderstandings and we would know or sense that it was a cultural misunderstanding. But even knowing it and trying to talk it out sometimes we still just like couldn't get past it or figure it out. And, and there were ways like I mean he is, he's a really good guy, but there were just ways that I guess he was a bit more controlling. And so I got to the point where I was just questioning everything I did. It just seemed like everything was wrong. So if I, if I was nervous about a test, you know, he would be like well you should have studied more and then you wouldn't be nervous, you know. But like that's not true. You can study a lot and still be nervous about it. And also studying is something like there's never an end to, you can always study more for, you know, anything. So it just, it'd be stuff like that. And yeah, if I didn't do well on the test that you know, you should have studied more if I did do well, like if you'd studied more than you wouldn't have worried.

John Dehlin [02:00:14] So you, you've highlighted your ultimate discovery of, of an asexual identity as a main theme here. But, but you know, and I learned about asexuality through my, my child, my number three child, Claire. So I didn't know anything about it until like this year or last year. So I imagine you wouldn't have known much about that either at the time. And so, but as you now. And we'll talk about asexuality maybe in part three more. But as you now look back on that one year long dating experience, are there reflections you have about self understanding or things you observe or noticed or notice now about that experience that later help inform this identity?

Maven [02:01:03] Yeah, there's Some, like, you know, in retrospect, that I realized. But I would say it was mostly invisible. Just because it's what the church wants. Yeah. Like, I am exactly. I think I'm normal and. And that everyone feels the same way I do. So, actually. So if I knew it's easy to

John Dehlin [02:01:21] keep the long chastity, I really did

Maven [02:01:23] not understand what the big deal was. And so, like, if I did know, like, someone masturbated or someone had sex, you know, especially if it was, like, a weird place to me, like, like in the back of a car or something, I would just be like, what you? Like, you have to go out of your way to do that, you know? That's so gross. Like, I don't get why it's hard. So that's where I'm still at. And of course, the older I get as a single person person, the more and more I do realize, like, it is unusual not to have some kind of a Something experience somewhere along the way. But at this point, I did not know that. I thought I. I'm.

John Dehlin [02:01:53] You're just really good at living the lives.

Maven [02:01:55] I didn't even think I was. I just thought I was normal at this point.

John Dehlin [02:01:58] Yeah.

Maven [02:01:58] Yeah. Like, I mean, some people don't do it, but I just. I just didn't think it was hard. But I do remember there was one point, like, we were watching a movie together or something, and I didn't realize it, but, like, because we were kind of, like, snuggled, right. So my hand ended up, like, a bit close to his groin area. I didn't notice it, but he was just like, what are you doing? You know, he's kind of this kind of flirty way, and so I'm like, what? And he was like, your hand. And so, like, when I saw it, I yanked it back and I said, ill. And then his face, like, he looked really hurt. Yeah. And I was just like, oh, shoot. You know, And I just remember kind of, like, berating myself, like, all right, you know, it's time to grow up, Maven. Like, you're an adult now. You're 18, right? 19. So, yeah. So it's just like, it's time to get past, like, this idea, like, you know, ill penises, you know? And so I remember just feeling really immature that I did that, and I felt bad that I hurt his feelings. And, you know, like, the other end of that is. I mean, like. Like, what if he accidentally touched my boob and was, like, gross? Like, that would make me feel bad. Like, it's. I mean, it's just part of my body. Like, I'm sorry you think it's gross, you know, so that was like one thing that I remember doing, but that was just like my gut reaction to that was just to be like. So anyway, that's. That's one thing. And I know this, I feel a little bit embarrassed to say, but, like, we did kiss and they kind of make out, I guess, but never with tongue. I never like. It was always just like closed lips. Yeah. And I'm really, I'm really grateful to him that he really respected that. And I kind of think maybe because he was a convert, because I just know so many friends that like, LDS guys would. Were more comfortable pushing. But I think because he was a convert and, and I think he was more motivated to really be pure. And, and so I think that's why he was really willing to follow my lead on that and, and not ever, like, pressure me more like, beyond what I was comfortable with. That would have been normal to everybody else, I think. And not only that, but, I mean, because he. He wasn't a virgin. And so. And that was something that he had a lot of shame over, which I think is really sad now because, I mean, of course I'm curious. I'm just as curious as the next person is about sex and things like that. And so, I mean, I didn't ask for explicit details, but I did ask him about it. And from the way he described it, it was almost. I think. I think it was Natasha Helver Parker's interview. Just a really beautiful experience. It was planned. They did it because they loved each other, they wanted to be close together. It was somebody that he was in a relationship with and had been for several months. So it was actually. It sounded like actually a really beautiful kind of first time. And so I feel bad for him that he's been taught to have shame around that now and see it as like an ugly, sinful thing. You know what I mean? But it was also good for me too, because I. Again with the Orthodox bringing up, I really did want like the, the RM Priesthood holder and I ideally wanted somebody who is as pure as I was. So starting off the bat already with someone which of course was fine because he was a convert, so he couldn't have known. But I just got me over it permanently. You know, I just. I just realized it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter what someone's experience is. And if I'm honest, I think part of me kind of thought, like, if we got married, I Almost kind of liked that he knew what he was doing there would be like a little bit less. It seemed a little bit less scary, I think the thought of it, knowing that he was experienced, I guess. Yes. Does that make sense, buddy?

John Dehlin [02:05:29] Dear Jane, do you.

Maven [02:05:30] Yep. That did not work out. Yeah. So what's funny though, so before he leaves, actually. So my best friend was there and she. She met a guy right at the beginning of the second semester of college and they were engaged by the end of the month. So with the fastest, you know, that was before. Well, yeah, that was like the fastest engagement I knew. And so I was really upset about it. I really felt like she was making a mistake. It was like the like first person for her as well. And so I really felt like she was just rushing into it, maybe making my mom's mistake, I think. So I tried to get her just to slower roll. I think it's just like, let's just, you know, if this is it, you can take a little bit more time. Like there's no rush for this. Right. So I remember going over to her apartment just to have a talk and she had a roommate there and her roommate had just found out that she had got engaged. She did that, the real like the high pitched squeal, you know, and, and let me see the ring and all this kind of stuff. But yeah, I was getting more and more upset. But this roommate, I remember just being like, I'm so jealous of you. You get to have sex. She's super excited for my friend for it. And I just remember thinking, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard somebody say. And that's a stupid reason to get married. Which of course I learned later that's the primary reason for a lot of people to get married in the church is precisely for that reason. But I just remember thinking, yeah, I just, I don't know, I just feel like almost overwhelmed with how dumb I thought this statement was at the time. So, yeah, it didn't go well and I basically lost a friendship over it initially for a little bit. So it wasn't until after I did a study abroad that summer in between those first two years of college and came back and then we kind of reconnected there. So. So I studied abroad in Japan.

John Dehlin [02:07:23] That's exciting because you love the language and you got the Sterling Scholar and it's a chance to really practice your Japanese.

Maven [02:07:29] I actually got to go over there. And so I was in a school. It was just a really tiny women's college. There were only 400 students, and I think there were about 20 international students, and I was the only Westerner. All of the other international students there learning Japanese were from other Asian countries or there was a couple islanders as well, but I was the only white person there. And, yeah, it was. It was definitely interesting because there were things that I didn't do. Tea is very big in Japan, so there was a tea ceremony I was in that was really awkward because it was very formal and very. Yeah, now I feel bad about it because it was probably perceived very rude, but I would not drink the tea.

John Dehlin [02:08:07] Yeah, I've done that. I did that as a Mormon. I. I was at, like, this really formal big deal with mit. I'm with mit. There's like, state officials in China and they were all supposed to drink a little glass of wine or whatever, and I'm like, but I wouldn't drink it. You know what I mean? Really insulting to them.

Maven [02:08:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:25] And you look back and you're like,

Maven [02:08:28] you have to stand for your principles. Right? Like, no matter the pressure. So that's where I was at with that. Anyway, so one of the activities that the school had planned was a visit to an onsen, which is a public bathing house. And so they're. I mean, they're split between genders, so it's. That's, you know, males on one side and females on another. But it. But it is just like open and public. And it was something that. At first I was absolutely, definitely not going to do that because I just furiously embarrassed at even the thought of being naked in front of other people. But my Indonesian friend said that they would go with me, and so I thought, okay, because they also care about modesty too. Like, I do. I don't know. It just felt more okay for me to know that they were okay with it. And so, yeah, I was like, yeah, it should be fine. It's just women, you know, like, it's so. I don't think it's immodest, you know, I didn't actually have anyone there to check in with, which is good because I did. I gave too much, like, decision making already, a lot to the church anyway. But, yeah, so I decided to go with their encouragement. But what they meant was that they would go with me to support me to the onsen, but they weren't actually going to go inside. So we got there and then I realized, like, they were leaving. But I. I didn't want. I didn't want to look like a coward by being like, well, yeah, if you guys are leaving, I'm gonna leave too. So. So I stayed. They give you like a little tiny, like a tea towel. Basically. I got undressed. I think I was like. Because there wasn't anyone else in the locker room at the time. So when I go through the doors, I really nervous, but I just want to, like, be there, I guess, be seen so people know that I didn't chicken out and then just like, get the heck out of there as soon as I can. So I walk in and like, one of my classmates sees me. She waves at me. And I just like, I just remember thinking she was a model. She was Chinese. And so of course she looked like perfect. And I immediately just felt like a toad. I felt so ugly. And just like my stomach was poochie, you know, I just. I just hated everything about it. But luckily I had more like classmates, classmates, you know, at the side. So there was a classmate to like, just right inside the door that was just like, hey, you know, come over and sit by me. So the way it works in Japan, and this is true for, like, even in, in private homes, you bathe outside of the bath. You. You. You wash all of the stuff off and usually sitting on a stool. So there is just this line of stools, like where everybody was. So you wash first and then you soak in the tub. They do, they. They like to do herbs and things like that. So it really is kind of like a sauna experience. And they even do that in their private home. So this is the same, only it's public. So I sit on this little stool, I'm hunched over, and I'm just kind of dying inside. I just do like a really quick wash. I'm wanting this to be over, but we're done. My friend's done. So then we, like, we head over to the sauna section. And once I got in there, I just. It's just big and wide and open. And I just saw everybody there, all kinds of shapes and sizes. There are old women, there were young women, like, they were teen girls just chatting like it's a normal day at the moment mall. And I just remember, like, it just looked so normal. I. I didn't see that anyone looked embarrassed or feeling like I felt like shy or anything like that. And so I think just seeing how normal it seemed to everybody, just something just kind of switched in my brain. And I saw it as normal too. And it also worked for me. I didn't feel self conscious about my body anymore because. Because I just saw everyone as people, like just. Yeah, just who they are instead of just their faces representing who they are, just the whole body. And so it wasn't. Instead of comparing it as like, you know, like models you see in magazines, this is what beautiful women look like. Or even in church magazines, you know, the blonde hair, blue eyed, kind of like Happy Valley ideal, like this is what, you know, good women look like. And then everyone else is a comparison that all went out the window. It wasn't a comparison at all. It was just, it's just people and who they were. And like I, I have never been there since then, but I would really like to someday get to the point where I feel as comfortable in my body as I did then. It was just, it was really, really normal. There was this like cute old Japanese lady that saw that we were all foreigners. So she came over and we all sat down together in the sauna and she's just asking us about, about school and like what interested us about Japan, why we were there. It was just totally normal, completely naked conversation. But like it was very comfortable. And so, yeah, anyway, that was an interesting experience for me. Like outside of, I think the kind of purity culture stuff like actually being

John Dehlin [02:13:13] comfortable with your body, that seems extraordinarily healthy. And the only thing I can think of that kind of compares is when I've been to Europe and I'm seeing all these paintings or even magazine articles with, with nudes. And I just remember having this awakening. It's like, why do we make such a big deal about the body? I think it's harder because we make it so taboo and forbidden if we just. It's just a body, if we could have that attitude, there'd probably be a lot less sexual unhealth. So I mean, I just think for all these reasons it just seems so healthy that people normalize nakedness.

Maven [02:13:52] It just occurred to me, maybe that was the switch in my brain because like with, with modesty and purity culture, your body is a thing attached to you maybe, but it's still a thing that it needs to be covered up or you know, is affecting other people. And so with that, like there's kind of this idea that there's something shameful about you or I mean, they say sacred and that it's not shameful and it's just for the right person at the right time kind of a thing. But that's still the feeling. So I kind of feel like maybe that was the switch, was not that, yeah, that bodies are objects or that they are shameful or should be hidden, but that they are people that they are who we are. And I think maybe that was, I guess, the feeling too, that I've been working on getting back is that ownership of my body, this is. This is me, you know, versus the. The red dress where I'm, you know, apparently doing something wrong, like to somebody else by having a body, by having some curves.

John Dehlin [02:14:54] Obsessing about modesty objectifies people.

Maven [02:14:58] Yeah. And we objectify ourselves when we do that.

John Dehlin [02:15:03] Yeah.

Maven [02:15:03] Yeah. So after that, I go back to snow college, and I had a much rougher year that. Because, I mean, for one, being alone, but also, like, because my boyfriend had been so social, people knew me, like, as his girlfriend. So it was really awkward sometimes for. They'd meet people and they'd be like, I know you, but they didn't know my name, so I would say his name. And they were like, oh, yeah. And how second, like, how's this mission going? You know? And it was just super awkward because I was like, I don't know. We didn't. We're not together anymore. Yeah. So, like, it was definitely really awkward. But. And then also, too talking about the. The ADHD from before. While I did well in school and in high school especially, I got, you know, better grades than I had in younger years. But for. Especially for women with undiagnosed adhd, college can be really, really difficult because of the unstructured nature of it. And so that's where a lot of people just really fail out. And I was definitely struggling, which now I understand is like, is because of that. But at the time when you don't know, your brain just doesn't work the same way everybody else does, but you don't know why it's hard to do things. So even if I really wanted to do well in school, I really wanted to study. I just wasn't able to do what I wanted to do sometimes. And then I was like. I was being depressed about, like, this relationship I had that I had lost. So it was definitely kind of a struggle year. But one thing I do remember taking during that time, I took a human development class. So I had taken the Institute, the church's version of courtship and marriage class, but there was a school, like an actual school version. It was taught by a bishop. And I think that was really good for me at the time because I think because he was a bishop, I could trust the education I was getting. But I remember the very first day of class when we were going over the syllabus, there was going to be a sexuality component, and he was adamant. He was like, if anybody skips class these two weeks, I'm going to fail you. I don't care what your grade is, for everything that you can get a hundred percent and. And think you can slide with the se or something if you. But no, I'm going to fail you if you skip this. And he went on this big rant about Mormons, you know, and he was just like, it's. You're not going to lose any purity by actually learning about sex and how it works. If any of you, you're adults, but if some of you have controlling parents, I understand. Like, if they have a problem with it, tell me, and I will talk to them. I'll explain it in a way that they understand. And if any of you on campus, if you have a bishop that he's. I know all the bishops, I'm pretty sure, like, I know all of them are fine with this, but if you have a new one or something that doesn't know and thinks you shouldn't take this, then talk to me. I'll talk to him. I've been a bishop. It was this whole rant really, really big. And that was the first time that I was like. Like, yeah, I guess it is okay to, like, learn about sex, you know, But I think. But I hadn't thought it was okay before, I think because of the first strength of the youth pamphlet, because one of the things that talks like. Like, you're not supposed to think about it, too. If you think about it too much or ruminate about it, like, then you'll want to do it. So that was, I think, also partly why, I think even learning about sex seemed like, kind of pushing the boundaries for me at the time. So I remember after that first day, I did meet up with my friend, the one that had gotten married, and we had reconciled at this point over the summer. And. And so I remember because I had a question, but I didn't dare ask it in class, and not that first day. I assumed it would come up later. But that portion of the course was going to be, like, several months away, I think. So anyway. I remember going to my friend, just kind of talking about things because she's experienced now, right? She's married. And so I remember asking, like, you know, if it's like, you know, when I get married and, you know, it's, it's. It's the honeymoon night. If it's like, if I. If I don't want to, or, like, if I'm scared or like, like, or even if we start, like, if it. If it's hurting and like. And I don't like wanting to go anymore. Like, can they stop? I didn't know. I really didn't know. I. And you know, I, I did kind of think, I like that I get kind of the slippery slope thing. Like once a guy gets going, like there's just kind of like no finishing or it's just like I don't. Animal instincts take over or something. I wasn't sure. I was really horrified by the idea, of course. But yeah, so I'm asking her and, and she's saying like, well, yeah, like once guys get going, like they, you know. And she's kind of implying that that is the case. And so I remember saying, but like, I mean, but like what if it really, really hurts? Like I, like I am in a lot of pain and I. And I want this, you know, I want him to stop. And I just, just. She kind of gave me this weird little kid. She was just like, I don't. She's like, you might get raped on your wedding night. And I was really, I was really shocked and horrified by that idea. And I knew it happened, but like I didn't. Again, like I didn't know how much I guess fault or like, you know, you could put on the guy. I didn't have my boyfriend anymore, like to ask it. I never had asked them that. But I thought I was like, I don't think he would have of. Because he was really respectful of me. But again like I really wasn't sure. But I remember just thinking like, I can't handle that. Like if that happens, I can't stay married to somebody like that, you know. So I was like, even if it is like if that is true and that's how men are, there's got to be like 10% of men who would at least have the self control to not. And so I just like, I just really need to find somebody like that I can be really sure like would be able to do that. So. So I just remember that was a memory I had that I, you know, and I, I did learn in that class and for about, you know that that's absolutely not true there when kids, as far as consent goes, like any time to stop is the time to stop. Whether it's.

Mormon Courtship, Marriage, and Body Image

John Dehlin [02:20:44] That's not taught in orthodox Mormonism ever.

Maven [02:20:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:48] Ever.

Maven [02:20:50] Yeah, I mean I don't remember being taught about sex. But I mean again, just like I just don't know how it works. And that seemed like an idea of how it works.

John Dehlin [02:21:00] I'm sure there's language, something like, women submit to your husbands or, you know.

Maven [02:21:04] Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, yeah, there's def. There's definitely that. And so I think that's very important for LDS women to know, marry, married or not married, that they can say no at any time.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] Yeah.

Maven [02:21:19] Married or not married.

John Dehlin [02:21:20] For sure. Yeah, for sure.

Maven [02:21:21] It's important for them to know that.

John Dehlin [02:21:23] Absolutely.

Maven [02:21:24] Yeah. And not just that, but like, I do know people like, like who had really bad experience. I think for that reason, like, because guys told them that like or. Or made them feel guilty. Like, you got me going. And you know, now look at the. The blue ball excuse, you know, like. And so it's really ironic that the, the church's like kind of purity teachings about this especially because we're made to feel like, like we're responsible for what guys feel and guys do. I mean, not just like. I mean from like modesty, but also. Yeah. Like, if we're making out and things like that, like, we're not supposed to be arousing those feelings in ourselves or in other people. So it actually makes it easier for guys to guilt girls. And I'm just thinking of friends and roommates that have had experiences like that where they did break the law of chastity because they kind of felt like it was already their fault of, you know, the effect that they had on their boyfriends. And so they felt obligated, you know, I guess, to. To make them feel good to finish it. But anyway, so it's really sad. I feel really lucky that I think that didn't end up happening to me. But it's a. It's an unfortunate reality for a lot of other people. So anyway, it was a good class. I. I did learn a lot more about. I'm still very naive in a lot of things. It is. It was still by a bishop. So even though it was very like progressive for where I was at that it probably still wasn't maybe quite where it could be. But I do want to say just real quick, I. That is where I learned that like movement was involved in sex. So I mean, because anything. If I had seen any kind of depiction in Hollywood or something, it would have been like, you know, very PG13. And so a lot of times, like there isn't movement or it's very slow, you know, kind of like sensual looking or it like scenes would be after the fact. So like they're together but they're talking or something. You know what I mean? It's not like I saw a whole lot of scenes like that. But the ones I saw, that's what it was like. So it's kind of funny when you bring in soaking and that whole thing that was on tick tock everywhere, like honestly, for a long time that's kind of what my image was of sex. Like that, that's, that's how it works.

John Dehlin [02:23:34] More stationary.

Maven [02:23:34] Yeah, exactly. Just you insert and like that's how it goes, you know. And so it was in this class and it's kind of funny now because. And how I learned that because we didn't show any sex scenes obviously. Like, you know, I want to say it was like a really old kind of like ultrasound basically of the act, if that makes sense. So yeah, that was the only. That was when I learned that like. And it was really actually kind of horrifying to me because that did not seem like celestial or loving or, you know, I've been told, I mean, all this purity stuff, just like the right kind of sex is beautiful. It's between husband and wife, you know. And so yeah, the idea of movement at the very like when I first learned about it just seemed really animalistic to me and it kind of made me feel dirty just to even learn about that. So. So that's it for Snow College.

John Dehlin [02:24:28] You were there a year.

Maven [02:24:29] I was there two years. So I was there the first year we had my boyfriend, I did the study abroad, came back and I finished the second year. And then I actually had never considered BYU Hawaii before. I was going to go to Provo. That was going to be in. The plan was always to transfer because at the time, I think it is a four year university now. But at the time it was just, it was a community college, a two year thing. But BYU had, Hawaii had a little scholarship for TESOL program graduates from Snow College. So that's what even kind of cottoned me onto the idea. So I applied there and I got in and it was really great. It was definitely. It's a really unique campus. It's not like Provo or Idaho at all. It's way more lax. As much as the church really, really tries hard to try to turn it into Provo and Idaho, I feel like every time they bring in new administration there, it's always the. Yep. They always import, you know, rich white guys from Utah to come into, you know, and they just don't match the local culture at all. Like sometimes like they've, they've tried to like ban flip flops, you know, and like you just can't, you just can't do that, you know, you can try but it's just not, I mean, and for church and things like that, you know, maybe. Right. But like for everywhere else, like it's just, like there's just some things that you just can't fight. It's just a losing thing. But not only that, because again there's, I mean, a money aspect of it because so BYU Hawaii is pretty close to, or at least at the time, half international students. So it's a small campus. But because of that, because so many are from Asian countries and islanders are the most. But there's some other, like Europeans and from other places kind of scattered but. But it's one of the most diverse campuses in the country because of that. And so, I mean, not religiously but yeah, but ethnically so it was really great for that reason. But I had one experience that really kind of opened my eyes to. Even though I've got some travel in, I'm still very ethnocentric in my view. It's still the world revolves around how I think about things, how I was raised. You know, this is the right way and everything else is either like a neutral deviation. Like maybe this kind of traditional clothing doesn't make a difference, but this thing that doesn't match with the gospel does make a difference kind of a thing. So I remember listening to it, it was just a short presentation from a guy who's from a country called Tuvalu. It's an island country and it's very, very low lying. It's very close to the sea level and it is like it's been disappearing because of climate change. And so of course I know climate change isn't real because that's part of the, you know, Democrat atheist science agenda to overthrow, you know, proper businesses, I guess, and take over the country. So yeah, like I don't think climate change is real until I, until I hear this guy. This is the first time I have ever heard about this country of Tuvalu. And this guy is from there. And so I remembered, I mean, I'm glad that I just leave at least gave him space to listen. But there was somebody else there, a guy who I assume was raised very similar to me, who also like me, did not know this country existed an hour ago, like when this whole thing started, but did start to argue with this kid about climate change, that it's not real and that I think he did say like Democrats, you know, and so, and this kid had definitely heard it before because it was obvious in how he handled it. And so he would just kind of basically restate what this guy was saying, but in a way that just kind of made it obvious the. Kind of. Just the ignorance and the racism that was involved in that. And so, because I remember him asking questions like, so you think United States Democrats just hopped in a boat and came to our island and told us, like, we're losing our island because of climate change? And we just said, okay, like, you're white, so we believe you. And, like, we're just brown islanders. Like, we're just fishing. So. Okay. And so, like, I remember listening to that, just going, like, just like, the cringe on the inside. Like, oh, my gosh. And. And this guy did not give up for a while. Like, he still kind of would go for a few things, you know, but it was just. It was just really obvious just how awful it was. I just remember having, like, this pit in my stomach and this just, like, secondhand embarrassment because, like, it was embarrassing. But also, like, again, like, an hour ago, before I. If I would have been having this conversation with this guy, it would have been agreeing with everything he said, you know, and so, yeah, so there's. I mean, that. The two things. So first of all, it just kind of saw for the first time what it looks like from the outside, you know, and then I guess just. Yeah, I didn't realize. I just didn't realize, like, just how bad some of my ideas were.

John Dehlin [02:29:31] So it was the same sort of like, you think they choose this LGBT moment?

Maven [02:29:36] Just about. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:36] But now it's about political stuff, right? And climate change and power.

Maven [02:29:40] It just made me realize for the first time just how. How easily it comes to some people to literally just hear about a country that exists for the first time and presume that you know something that you know more than somebody who. From there, who's lived there their whole life, you know, And I just. I just remember, yeah, I guess just realizing everything that I've ever learned and everything that I believe comes has always been really spoken authoritatively, and I just always believed it. So, like, the Rush Limbaugh, you know, Glenn Beck, anyone on Fox, like, and I just realized it was about everything, anything political, anything economical, anything cultural. Like, it was always just stated like, these are the facts. And I never heard an actual. I never heard the other side ever represented fairly in any kind of way at all. Like I said, like, Democrats, where you were either in the elite, where you're knowingly trying to take the country down and turn it communist or whatever, or you're one of the ones that have been duped by their fake messaging about inclusivity and things like that. Right. And so I just took for, like, I just thought they know everything.

John Dehlin [02:30:49] Yeah. This is why Mark Twain says that travel is fatal to prejudice. You just. You learn things you couldn't learn otherwise.

Maven [02:30:58] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [02:30:58] Can I just say, I have to give this public service announcement. We have listeners to Mormon Stories podcasts that are both liberal, politically liberal, or politically conservative that are both Democrat and Republican. Mormon Stories does not have a preference for either side. I'm John. I'm a registered Republican in Utah because I think my vote counts the most that way. But I think there are good reasons to be Republican and Democrat, conservative or liberal. We do not. Just because Maven's talking about her awakening into seeing other political sides. I. I just get. I get every time I we. Politics comes up on Mormon Stories, I get these hate messages. Mormon Stories is woke and Mormon Stories is. Hates conservatives. And that is not what's going on here. This is Maven's story. Please don't send me texts and. And comments and emails that. That we are don't. That we hate Republicans, Hate conservativism. That's not what's going on here. Sorry.

Maven [02:31:56] No, I appreciate that. And that's good to say, too, because like you said, there's good reasons to be either, but there's also bad reasons. Reasons to be either.

John Dehlin [02:32:02] Totally.

Maven [02:32:03] So I feel like what I was raised in was toxic in some ways. And so, yeah, you absolutely can be a Republican and not think Democrats are literally evil. You know, but this is the messaging that I was raised with. And so. And it is something I'm working on now because I do tend to assume my upbringing in talking about these kinds of things in these spaces. So it's a good reminder sometimes, just because somebody, like, is Republican or conservative, it doesn't mean they think about things the way I was taught to think about things. So I do appreciate you bringing that up. But for me, it really. I just really did take for granted that, like, just these white men, they just knew everything about everything. So if they. If they know, if they said anything about poly, I just assumed that they. They knew.

John Dehlin [02:32:48] I would venture to say that for your dad, Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity might have been as important as Gordon B. Hinckley or Thomas S. Monson or maybe even more so. I'm just guessing.

Maven [02:33:01] Possibly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:02] Just guessing.

Maven [02:33:02] I. I would agree. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:05] That's. There's a certain type of Mormon where that's. Or human where that's just the case.

Maven [02:33:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so that's how I, I, I was raised. So that, so this, this incident with this person, you know, arguing with this guy from Tuvalu, that made me realize like, like just because something is said to you authoritatively by someone who appears to know doesn't necessarily mean that they know and it's worth listening to the other side. Yeah, so that was, that was just like, I think a big moment for me. Yeah. So I was in the TESOL program and I worked. So BYU Hawaii has a, like a pretty enmeshed relationship with the Polynesian Culture center. And I still, there's still a lot I don't know about. So I would love to know like if people have more insider information about this, but the Polynesian Culture center is a huge tourist attraction. It is run by the church. I don't know if it's technically a non profit or not or if it is like one of the for profit ventures, but it relies a lot on labor from the students at byu. It's literally right next door. And so I mean most of the jobs were for, were for a lot of the islanders. There was a specific program and I kept getting changed up, so I don't know what the exact acronym is now because it changed. But when I knew it was the iWork program and so, and at the time I thought it was just really benevolent, really amazing that they would, you know, students can come from these poorer countries where they like would never be able to afford an American education. And they just, they work, work for, you know, 15 hours or 14 hours a week or I think it was 19, like just under 20 and you know, teaching about their culture to white people and then, and they get education for it and scholarships or whatever, right? Yeah. So like their education is paid for. They also got housing, you know, so I was like, this is, this is really great because that's how I felt when I met.

John Dehlin [02:34:57] Yeah.

Maven [02:34:58] Yeah. So. And I get like the seedier side of it kind of comes out later. But yeah, as a white person, there's a few less jobs that you're able to do. Most of the like facing jobs they want from islanders, even if it's not your specific country, but, but if you're brown, you fit in and you can be there. If you're white there. Waitressing was what I could do. So there's a, there were like three lunchtime areas where you could do a luau. The biggest one was Hale Aloha. I worked in the second one. It's called Hale Ohana. And when you work there, you get a free meal at the, you know, from the buffet. But, like, we would have to make it. And then we would clean everything up and then you could eat your meal. The end. And it's the same thing every day, so most people got tired of it after a while. But again, I did not have a lot of money. And a lot of things in Hawaii are expensive. The tuition, maybe not so much, but food and groceries and things like that. So I. For a year, I ate some kind of combination of that buffet, like five days a week. And I remember one time my roommates actually, like, having a pizza party. And before I was going to work, they're like, well, we'll save you some. And I just remember being so worried that they would forget because that's. It's easy to say, like, yeah, we'll save you some pizza. And then. And then, oops, like, everyone ate it all. So I remember, like, having a specific conversation with my roommate. I was like, okay, once I leave, I can't go back and get buffet food, you know? So I was just like, so please, just please make sure you really do save me some, because if you don't, I'm not eating tonight. And so. And they pulled through it. Like, they totally had some. And so I was just really grateful. But I remember just really being genuinely worried about it. It's like, you know, free food for college students. Like, there's usually not leftovers, you know, so that was a thing. And it actually ended up. I mean, I never had, like, before or since, but I had kidney stones while I was there. And I kind of wonder if maybe that was it, like, because of eating like this, the same meal. I don't know. I honestly don't know why that happened or whatever, but in my mind, I think that's a plausible explanation, but. But that's what I needed to do. So. So anyway.

John Dehlin [02:37:04] So you weren't having a diverse nutritionary experience?

Maven [02:37:07] Not really, no. No. So, yeah, I did like it. I was there again. I was still struggling because, I mean, it was every time. It's just like the same story over a new semester. I would always recommit, like, this is going to be a better semester. I'm not going to struggle so much at the end of it. But that was still happening. Anyway, I did get, I guess, kind of an interesting calling. And I still don't know. I keep getting, like, different information about it, but I was called as a Sunday school secretary in my college ward and I remember, like, the bishop giving it to me and saying, like, I mean, I checked them and it's technically not a priesthood calling. You don't have to have the priesthood for it. So I was like, okay. So I was fine with it. I didn't think it was that big of a deal. But I remember the first time I met with the rest of the Sunday School presidency. They were really surprised and they were like, yeah, I thought it was a priesthood. I was pretty sure it was a priesthood calling. But, I mean, they were cool about it. They never made me feel bad or anything. And I think we actually had a good, really, really great presidency. I feel like we fulfilled our calling really well and a Sunday School president and ended up marrying my roommate, which I may or may not have had, I think, something to do with. So anyway, it was good. But I've heard since, mixed messages, I guess, since then if that, like, if that bishop had gone rogue and it should have been a priesthood calling or not. It's. At this time, this was another thing that kind of made me struggle. Well, there's kind of two things happening. One was the TESOL program. I was starting to realize I wasn't really enjoying it or the classes. I really liked all the work I had done with international students. But. But. So I didn't really like teaching. I was more interested in learning about other cultures and other things than teaching my language and my culture. And I think I was kind of feeling a little bit of guilt over it kind of sometimes. I mean, even in Hawaii, like, that is a colonized country. And so I kind of felt like I'm kind of contributing to colonization a little bit. That wasn't the main factor, but it was just like something that kind of niggled at me during that time. But I just really didn't enjoy the. I just didn't enjoy the classes anymore. But I wasn't sure if it was just the classes or if it was something bigger or not. And I wasn't sure what else I would do anyway. And it was also during this time that my parents divorced again. So it wasn't exactly a surprise. I did think they were trying to wait till my youngest brother was older. He was only 11 at the time. I was 21 and finally missionary age. So that was another thing, like, I was thinking about. But just because I was struggling so much personally because of. Because of my parents divorce and then just struggling in school, I wasn't really sure anymore that I could handle a mission. And I thought, like, because I. I knew a Lot of sisters come back, like for mental health reasons. And so I really, I felt that if I went on a mission and if I didn't do well and I came home early, even though it's optional for us, we don't have to go, I really felt like I would just feel like a failure the whole rest of my life. Like, I did not think I would be able to get over it if I, if I had to come home early. So that was a concern to me. And then I wasn't sure. I mean, I had always wanted to go and now I'm old enough to go, but I wasn't feeling like a really strong feeling about it. And so, yeah, it's just that a lot of things were in turmoil at the time and like with my parents, divorce too. I think one thing that was really interesting to me when I first heard about it, when I heard it, that it was happening was the feeling that I felt was, I don't think juvenile is the right word. I feel like four year old Maven was back in my brain and four year old Maven's feelings, I didn't think I was gonna get emotional about this came back and it was just really interesting because like, it was so real. So it was really like memories coming back because I didn't understand. Four year old Maven couldn't understand what was happening. And like, had a lot of fears about like, like abandonment, you know, and like, and these things are known. You know, I think about this and you know, like, my dad's gone and I know he comes back sometimes, but I just, I don't get why he's gone, you know, and like, is mom gonna leave this kind of stuff? And it's, it just was really weird to me because like, I'm 21, I left them, I'm hundreds of miles away. But yeah, it was just a really interesting thing. It was just, I, I, I think just that part of my brain just unlocked and came out or something. I just recognized like, this is, this is three or four year old Maven. That's like, you know, and then, and that was it. It just, it didn't last very long. But, but I do want to say like I, I'm, I know there's a lot of people in this space that are facing this. And so I don't, like, I guess I don't want people to think, like, because divorce will hurt my children, like I shouldn't do it. It, because sometimes that really is the healthy thing to do and it's never, it's never going to be fun. It's. It. It's never an easy thing, obviously. But honestly, I sometimes wonder if things would have been better if my parents, you know, maybe had done it sooner rather than later. I don't know. It's. It's something you can never know, but I guess I just wanted to put that out there. I understand that there are parents in this spot, and it's very true, difficult, but. But you have to do what's. What's right for you. Anyway, so at this time, I was really definitely not interested in dating, but I still ended up on dates, kind of like on accident. So I don't know. I just. It's kind of funny to me now how it happened, but, like. Like, one of them was a guy who I did. I didn't realize at the time that he just. Just naivety. But I thought we were friends, you know, you really can't just be friends with guys as an adult in the church. But I also ended up on a date with my Elders Quorum president, who's a really good guy, and I think still is really a good guy. But he admitted something to me on the date, which I don't. I still don't know why he told me, but he was talking about, this is, like, the second semester that I was there, but he told me the first semester in his calling as Elders Quorum president. Like, part of it is, you know, divvying up, you know, what used to be called home teaching. And so he said, like, he told me the way, because, I mean, I always thought, like, they pray about it, right? That was always what I learned. And of course, there's like, cute little, like, meet cute stories about people who meet, like, from home teaching, you know, a guy. And that's, like, the start of it. So I never. That was never my expectation, but I did always kind of of wonder, like, or maybe even hope even, like, whoever was assigned to, like, me. That could be the guy, you know, that could be the start of, like, the romantic story. Anyway, I learned, like, definitely not the case here, because what he had done is. I mean, everybody's pictures are on everything because it's a student ward. So he went through the list of girls, and he picked, like, the. Like, it was a lot, like, 30 of the girls that he thought were the hottest or the cutest, and that's who he assigned to himself to home teach. And apparently it was so, like, blatantly obvious and egregious that other elders in the Quorum, like, had a talk with him about it, that he was deliberately, like, you know, sequestering, like, these hot girls for himself. And so I was really kind of shocked at this admission. I mean, cause for one, like, I guess prayer was not involved. I always thought, like, the guys took their priesthood seriously since it's something like that they get and I don't get, you know. But not only that, but, like, I was not on his list. Like, he was not my home teacher. So I was like, I, like, feel that was the case. Like, if we switched, I would not be telling somebody that. You know, my. One of my roommates was, though. So that was kind of, like, funny to me. I was just like, okay, that was a really awkward date. But anyway, yeah, nothing came out of, like, anything I did there. And I finally decided to go ahead and serve a mission. I felt like I had prayed about it, and I kind of felt like what God did was give the decision to me that it was, you know, I. I guess a neutral to him. I would be blessed if I went. But I wasn't one of the women that. That he gives a revelation to that you must go. So. Oh, yeah, I forgot this part. As I had started to talk about going on a mission, this was the first time I really started to get a lot of negativity about sister missionaries. If it had been around before, I mean, there was a little bit of a stigma still about going that, you know, if you're. If you make it to 21 and you're not married, that, you know, maybe there's something wrong with you or, like, less desirable about you. There was still a lot of my peers who would feel embarrassed or ashamed to be 21 and even be thinking about going on a mission and not be married at that point. But, I mean, I didn't feel that way because I did want to go on a mission. But this was the first time I started hearing a lot of the guys saying, like, I would never marry a returned sister missionary. That was new to me. And every time I asked, they always had, like, really? They would never give me a straight answer about it. And so it's like, I, like, fourth or fifth time I hear a guy say, like, I, like, I did not like the sisters on my mission. I will never marry a return sister missionary. I just was like, why? Just. Just tell me why. And he did try to do, like, the waffling thing. Like, you just. You just don't get it. It's just. Just, I. You know, it's just. It's just a thing. And I was like, just, just give me an example. Just, just tell me, tell me something. And so he finally said, well, I was a district leader and like the sisters would call me about really stupid arguments, you know, and it was just annoying. And I was like, really? Is that it? Like what were they arguing about? And he'd be like, I know, stupid. Like one use the other's hairbrush or something like that. And I remember being so annoyed because like, as much as we like love and revere and worship missionaries in the church, we all know, we all hear some really bad stories, you know. And so like at this point I've heard of missionaries stabbing each other, you know, or just like full on knockout blowout fights, you know. And so I just like, how is it, how is it possible that like a stupid argument about a brush is enough to say like any woman who has served a mission is just an instant, like off the list of possibilities for a companion? Especially when we know like the stupid stuff that elders can do, you know. Anyway, I had started to suspect at that point that it probably had more to do with, with. I had already a sense that returned missionaries were really good talkers and that not just being a returned missionary alone was not quite the guaranteed good guy pass that I, the idea that I had as a teenager by this point, I know you still gotta vet somebody. Anyway, that was my suspicion at the time was that you can't, yeah, you can't out talk a sister who's also like been through the same thing and knows the talk as well. Like you will have to walk the walk in addition and, and she'll hold you accountable. And so, but if you get this, that sweet young thing, 18 or 19, that's still in that like hero worship phase and just like really looking up to you and your priesthood, it's just a lot easier to feel the hero and maybe kind of manipulate her and be in control and you know, make her feel that you're a lot more spiritual than you are. So anyway, I was already getting that sense.

Serving a Mission and Temple Experiences

John Dehlin [02:48:40] So you serve a mission, I serve

Maven [02:48:42] a mission, I get my mission call. I am certain that it's going to be foreign because of my experiences and also like because I, at this point I'd actually had done an internship in Japan teaching English, which was also really awful. And that's. I knew for sure I couldn't go back to that major. But yeah, but I've been there twice now, so I'm expecting the call to be Japan. And if it's not Japan, I'm Expecting it to be somewhere else, and I'm gonna, like, really, really learn a foreign language. So when I get the mission call, it was to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And I was upset. And that's an understatement. I was extremely. I really considered sending it back. I've heard that you could do that. But at the end, I was like, no, I don't dare do that. You know, I trust that this is revelation. This is how they're like, so there must be a reason why it's Philadelphia. And so it just took me a while to get used to it. I was really embarrassed. You know, it's kind of like that again, I guess, that stigma of, like, being serving in the States versus foreign. Like, it's cooler to serve foreign. But I really, really thought I was going. And part of me actually thought, like I said before, like, I was always having a plan B, you know, never say, I will do this, or this is what I want to do, because you're inviting Heavenly Father to Abrahamic test you on that and see if you'll really give it up or not. Or I guess, like, Abrahamic test is not the right word. And as we learned with Sandra, anyway, and this was one. This was something that kind of confirmed that to me because I really did think it was foreign. I took that for granted. So I was like, that this is proof of that idea, this kind of superstition. That's why I really honestly felt that could be partly why the Lord was testing me and my faith and my pride and vanity maybe by sending me Stateside. So I decided to. I accepted it. I remember talking to a couple in my ward who used to live there, and so they were, like, really excited. And it's so interesting because they were friends of the family. I just really thought they were really nice Mormon people, right? But when they were talking to me, they were like, we loved it there. And they were like, it was a really, really great place. Like. And then their face just seemed to change. And they were like. Until all the black people moved in. And I just remember being really shocked, for one, that they would just say that. And then their face. I really felt like their countenance changed, you know, when they. When they did that. And I had no idea they felt this way. So I remember thinking like, that is really. That's really racist. But I didn't say anything to them. I mean, because you don't. When you're a woman, you don't correct people like that. And I do. I feel really sad about it now, but I Just was really shocked and also just not expecting it. But anyway, yeah, I, I get ready to go. So I'm raised like everyone else, like my whole life. Looking forward to going to the temple, like starting from the primary songs, right? And then especially like with a lot of chastity stuff especially, it gets really drilled up like, be worthy, be worthy, be worthy. Temple marriage. Temple marriage, you know, and the endowment, like, you want to be worthy for this. Satan's going to try to get you. And it really did seem like sex was his primary tool to try to get you off of this path. This path. And I get like, just constant promises that you go to the temple, you make even more covenants with God, like baptism, you get more promised blessings, you get all this amazing knowledge. So like, that was always my goal. So I'm finally here, I'm serving a mission. I'm getting ready to go to the temple. At this point, I do know that a lot of my friends maybe didn't have the best experience. I'm, I'm noticing that there's some hesitation, I guess maybe is the way to put it. And I'm troubled by it because I. It's supposed to be the most amazing thing ever, right? So of course there's something they did wrong. Maybe they didn't study enough. So I want to make sure I'm studying enough that I, you know, I don't get thrown off by the most sacred experience that I'm supposed to have. And then besides that, I also just decided to just be like super open minded. No expectations, like whatsoever. Just, just, just take it in. And I even like, it's. I knew it was going to be a long ceremony, so I was like. And I'm not even going to try to remember things because I can always keep going. I'm just gonna just go with the flow and just feel the spirit like, and the magic of it all right. So at this point, I actually did know like about some of the clothing. I, I knew that about the apron and stuff like this. So. And I, I knew that there would be hand signals because there's a quote, I think from Brigham Young that talks about that, like tokens and signs. So I did kind of know that there was some stuff like that. And I didn't question it at the time or think it was weird. So, yeah, so get ready to go. I'm in there. It all starts. And I get just trouble right off the bat with that very first covenant. The men stand up, they covenant to hearken unto God. And then the women Stand up. And then we covenant to hearken to our husbands. And that was a major, like, record scratch moment in my mind. Just like, what? And I just remember having this sinking feeling. But, like, because of that, but also because I'm having a sinking feeling. I'm not supposed to have a sinking feeling. This is supposed to be really great. This is. This is sacred. This is how God wants it. Like, this is what God set up, you know? And I'm already having trouble in the beginning, so I just pushed it out. I kind of pushed it aside. The ceremony keeps going, right? Watching the movie, I noticed once Adam and Eve leave the Garden of Eden, Eve never speaks again. And that was something that really distracted me a lot. I would just watch her just looking back and forth between the men. And I remember thinking, she does pretty good being a silent mute character and not making it look really awkward or looking like she's bored, you know, Like, I just was really pulled out of the movie because of that. But, yeah, I just. I would focus on her. And then the veil part was really tough. I did know that there was parts where, like, you would cover yourself, like, your face with the veil. But I think. I guess I thought, like, the men would too. So, like, when that part came up, that was another one that just kind of, like, just felt like a dagger. And I just tried to push it out. Or like, I think I can figure out later why that is. But the initial feeling, you know, of just like, having to cover your face because, like, I mean, like, with modesty culture, like, with everything coming up to that, like, you cover yourself because there's something that's, you know, like, inappropriate about you or your body, like, that shouldn't be shown, you know, And I just, just. I couldn't help but think, like, what's so sacred that, like, my face is inappropriate? Sorry. You know, And I. I even felt bad for feeling that way because, you know, I feel like I shouldn't. But, yeah, I just. That's what it felt like, you know, it's just like there's something wrong with you. You know, this. This part's really, really special. So you got to be covered up. And so I couldn't. I couldn't concentrate, like, on what we were doing. Because after that, because I remember, like, looking over at the men, and I can see their faces, you know, and, you know, they're doing their thing, and. And then I would look over because the veil is really sheer, so you. You can still see around you. So I would look back at the women around Me and you can see a little bit of maybe somebody's hair, you know, outside and. And obviously different heights and stuff. But, like, it was just all white, like. And we were like ghosts, you know, or, like, I mean, burkas, even. But, like, even worse, because, like, even, like, the most, like, extreme burkas still will have, like, an eye slit. You know what I mean? Like, we don't even have an eye slit. Like. Like, we are. It's just really just white blobs. And so I just. It was just such an unsettling thing. I just kept looking over at the men and seeing the individuals and then looking at the women and just seeing blobs, you know, and then back at the men and back at the women.

John Dehlin [02:56:51] Like, they're literally faceless.

Maven [02:56:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:54] Wow.

Maven [02:56:54] I felt erased in a way. Like. Like our. Yeah, just we're not individuals anymore. Like, who knows who that is, you know? But you do know, for the men, because you can still see them.

John Dehlin [02:57:06] Thought about that. Wow. I mean, of course, because I'm a man. You know what I mean? But, yeah.

Maven [02:57:10] Yeah. Anyway, that was a really tough part

John Dehlin [02:57:14] for me, but again, that the veil made you faceless.

Maven [02:57:20] I didn't. I didn't use those same words as Maven, but I feel it. I do remember as soon as I was asked to cover up so that I was like, why it. Yeah, I was kind of, like, didn't understand all of a sudden, like, you know, I thought this was supposed to be some amazing place that I would, you know, receive these, like, you know, recognition and gifts and stuff from God, you know, and that it would, you know, make this plan more clear for me when I went through, and it did the opposite for me.

John Dehlin [02:58:03] Well, doing this on the heels of The Sandra Tanner DNC132 episode where women are just talked about in DNC132 like they're cattle. Like, they're literally their cult property.

Maven [02:58:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:14] The idea of covering the faces to make them faceless just takes on extra. Just unpleasant. Meaning.

Maven [02:58:22] I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, I did watch that last night.

John Dehlin [02:58:26] But what I'm Is I'm trying to project back. You're. It's not like you're some feminist and I'm. Feminist is good for me now. But back at the time, it's not like you were some feminist, educated woman. You're literally. That was definitely politically conservative, Right. Orthodox, committed, devout Mormon woman.

Maven [02:58:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:46] But these things are just natively disturbing you.

Maven [02:58:49] They hurt. I. That's why I feel like as much as it appears that women will toe the line. That doesn't mean that we don't feel these things, and maybe there's some differences between what we feel. But I, I feel really confident saying that there's. There's not any woman in the church that has genuinely not noticed the sexism and has not ever once felt lesser because of it. They might deny it. I mean, I would have most of the time, as a believing, but even, even as a believer, I would say in a safe enough space, I think probably with just other women that I really trusted, we would, we could talk about this kind of stuff. But not with, not with men and not in a. Not in, like, really where there's too many women around because then you start policing each other. But.

John Dehlin [02:59:38] And really quickly, the, you know, just in the past few years, the church has changed the, the temple ceremony in a few very key ways, one of which being they eliminated the veil for women. And let me just ask you, does that make it all better for you or.

Maven [02:59:53] No? I mean, yes, but I'm really happy that other young girls don't have to have that knife in the heart kind of experience. But at the same time, I already know that there's a lot of people who disbelieve older generations about things like penalties, which I'll come to in a second. So in a way, it's actually more erasure, because I know there's going to be people who see this who don't believe me at some point, maybe not now. It's fresh enough in enough minds, but at some point, she's lying.

John Dehlin [03:00:28] What's the big deal? The temple ceremony is not sexist. Right. And also there's just the idea of 180, whatever years of Mormon women had to go through it.

Maven [03:00:38] It.

John Dehlin [03:00:39] And then there's also, like, we were taught it was revelation, direct revelation from God. So, like, why are they changing it?

Maven [03:00:45] Yeah, right. And going back to that first covenant, I forgot this part. Like, what hurt the most about it was not the inequality, but just feeling like, you know, the men got to do this and I didn't. But it was a covenant with Heavenly Father and he made it this way. He doesn't want a covenant with me for this one. So that's. It's just like really hard not to feel lesser, you know, even when it's coming from God, because that doesn't just like, magically make it better. Yeah, it was, it was kind of back, like, to that priesthood feeling again, like, why, why doesn't he want to have me? Like, I love Him. I'm here for him. I don't even have a husband, you know, I'm here to make covenants with God, but he doesn't want me to. He would rather me go through a mortal guy instead. So that. I think that was what hurt about that part. Was it? Yeah. When you. When you were at that part. Another thing that, like comes to my mind during that same part is did you feel like Eve was blamed for everything? That's a good question. I don't know if I like would have gotten that necessarily from the temple, because I feel like it's there kind of in the teachings anyway and I think generically in Christianity, kind of a blame the woman like in the film. But yeah, I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:02:15] Maybe that was.

Maven [03:02:16] Maybe that didn't. Maybe that was. That was more.

John Dehlin [03:02:18] That was more for you.

Maven [03:02:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:19] Yeah.

Maven [03:02:20] I was just wondering if. Because another of my friend said it to me first, so I know it was something for her. So I'm just wondering. I was just wondering if that stood out to you too. I don't think it did because I feel like. I guess it was part of the story. I already knew, even though, like to say that, like, we appreciate Eve for what she did because she. She got the ball rolling, you know, on the whole mortal experience that we're supposed to have, I think. And that's okay if it wasn't. That's okay if it wasn't. Yeah, it seems normal to me. What really got me more was that she never talked again. She never spoke again once that they were out. So, yeah, because we. We know the story. You know, we're told the story in the Bible and. And we know the story, but for some reason, seeing it played out in front of you with actors and on a screen and the different tones of their voice and the blaming in words, for some reason hit me that day, because I think that makes sense. I mean, because it is there in the scriptures. But how many scriptures do we. I mean, just with the whole Sandra Tanner Epps, like, how many scriptures do you read over? I just not let really sink in, you know, but it's in there. And I. And so I only noticed that actually because there was a guy on my mission, he was not a member of the church, but he was a neighbor, kind of brought up this story as a comparison to King David. He was talking about how David, like, admits that he did wrong, like with Bathsheba and so. And, you know, and all of these, like. I think, you know, all this poetic language coming from him like, being repentant about it, he's like, Whereas Adam, Adam just like straight up kind of blames God. He's like this, this woman that you gave to me, she ate it first. So then I did, you know, and so that was like the first time that language. I, I, even after the temple, like, that I had noticed that, yeah, like, Adam's totally just being like, not just that she did it, but like, you, you gave her to be God and she did it and so not my fault. You know, it's kind of a, a cowardly thing. So, but, but that kind of realization came later. But yeah, so, so going back to the temple, there's a lot going on and it is all new. So even though, like these, these moments are happening, there's still all of the other stuff. So it's pretty easy for it to kind of just go out of your mind as you're going on to the next thing. And so I, I don't think there were any other like, major moments then, but I, I, I mean, there was one panic moment when, like when they're going through all the things that you say and when you get to the last I, I guess name and it's just this, you know, big, huge, long thing. I just had one panic. I was like, I'm not going to remember all of that. But then I was like a few could they know that, they know that it's going to be fine. And yeah, so it was. So I go through. Oh, actually I did participate in the prayer circle with my dad and because, like, under the idea that that would be special. So it was special to me at the time, you know, that I got to do that. But then it was again, like doing all of that all over again with the veil and also being in the, oh yeah, like the, the, the prayer circle around the temple altar. I did forget to put that in here. But that was an uncomfortable moment for me because it's just so culty, you know. And so I, I mean, you try to justify things. Like when you hear believing, like, there's always, there's no end to it, like the way that you can justify something. So even, like, I felt really uncomfortable with this chanting. It just like, really called back, like, just the creepy ceremonies from, like, Hollywood movies. So that's who I blamed. I was like, you know, Satan is just so smart. Like he, he, he was probably part of these, like, Hollywood depictions of making this look really creepy in like, dark rooms or blood sacrifices and weird robed people and you know, like, for this Reason so that righteous people going through the temple would make that association and feel icky because of it. Like, I really did come up with this whole scenario in my mind of just how ahead of the ball Satan is on things. And I blame Satan for my uncomfortable feelings at this chanting at this altar, like, because of Hollywood. Because, of course, he runs Hollywood. Right. So anyway, that was a moment. And so I would always just kind of berate myself for feeling uncomfortable, like, anytime that happened by just being, like. Just, like, you know, have not worldly ideas, but try to have celestial, like, views of. Of this. And this is really sacred and, you know, too sacred for your face. But anyway, so I get through. I'm in the celestial room, like, when we finally get there, and I do remember I was thinking I did feel like it was the spirit. I felt. I did feel kind of peaceful and calm. And I think part of it, like, was just because it's over, it's a long thing, and you just don't know what to expect. So you're. There's a lot of nervousness. Right. So I think just having completed it, there's just kind of, like, that coming down kind of a feeling. I feel like that's what it was. And then also just a sense of accomplishment because, like, my whole life, again, just, like, from a very young age, it's like the temple. The temple, the temple. Like, when you get older, this is the goal. You want to go to the temple. And again, purity, be pure for the temple so that you can go. And. And so I think I had the sense of, like, I made it, you know, like, this is what people have been worried about. I've been worried about, like, it's a minefield out there. Satan and his fiery darts. Like that seminary video. Like, he's, like, always waiting to try to get you, to pull you off the path. I feel like, you know, I felt like I made it. I stayed faithful, I stayed true. So I got here. So I feel like that's the primary source of, like, the good feeling I had was this kind of, like, I did it, you know, and you. You end up in that gorgeous celestial room. The chandeliers. Yeah. Very sparkly and very. Everyone has to be quiet. Yeah. And so you have time to think. So. Yeah. And. And again, like, you're finished with everything, so you can kind of, like, come down from that a little bit. So. Yeah. So I think. I think that's what I was feeling. And also just the kind of, I guess, the initiation of it, like, I'm an Adult now. I feel like, you know, yeah, this thing that I'm waiting for or whatever like that, you know, whatever. There's convert. When you get to the temple, you'll understand, you know, this or that. And just. Yeah, I was just like, I'm in. I mean, I made it, you know. Anyway, there was this cute little lady from my ward who came up. And I remember her asking, like, how. Like how I'm feeling. And I'm like, I'm feeling good. And my dad was like, close to me at this moment. And this lady, I still just remember her face. Like she was smiling. And that's what I think makes it so weird to me. And she's really short. I'm really short, but she's even shorter. So I remember, like, her looking up at me with this smile on her face and she just says, you know, back when I went through the first time, there used to be penalty and I had known about them. I wonder if I maybe had heard a rumor or something. I don't know. I just remember saying, oh, really? And then, yeah, she's smiling, she says, yeah, we used to mind. And she did it. She said, we used to mind slitting our throat or cutting our stomachs open. And again, like, there's this weird smile on her face about it. And I'm horrified. It's like, she did it, you know, she's like, cutting our throat. Throats, like, disemboweling ourselves. And I just remembered feeling sick to my stomach because, like, that is not. Why would that be in there. It just seems so barbaric, you know? So I. Yeah, I just. A bunch of, like, emotions, really randomly. First of all, like, my initial reaction was like, she's lying. That was my very first thought, she's lying. But then I was like, dad, we're in the celestial route. Like, who would do that? She's a sweet old lady. Why would she lie about it? You know? And then, like. And I met my dad just kind of like fading out from my view, you know, I was like, I know he heard that. I know he heard that. And he's just kind of walking away. And so it's kind of like what your friend, like, by not saying something, like, you know. And so, yeah, so I had a moment. I just, like, just really like that scramble, you know, that the cognitive dissonance. Something's wrong here. Gotta fix it. I need a band aid. I need a band aid really quick. And so what I came up with at the time, I. I remember just kind of doing a weird Little laugh. I was just like, okay. Early Saints, they were really. They were really intense about some of these things, weren't they? And that was enough to make me feel better, like, because, I mean, because you hear things, you know, like from Brigham Young's, like, all kinds of stuff happened, you know, And I was like, you know that it's called.

John Dehlin [03:10:56] It's called thought stopping.

Maven [03:10:57] Exactly. I mean, and I needed something. But this was like, the longest I remember, like, really, really scrappy rambling in my brain to try to come up with something to fix something. That really seems so horrifying to me. But, yeah, that was. That was the bed. That was good enough. Like, the saints were very zealous.

Undue Influence and Thought-Stopping in the Church

John Dehlin [03:11:12] I guess another thing your story is teaching me is that a lot of times the undue influence isn't always something that's overtly wielded by the church. A lot of the times we exert undue influence on ourselves, we condition and brainwash ourselves.

Maven [03:11:37] Absolutely. I know I did that.

John Dehlin [03:11:40] I mean, this is like the third or fourth time in your story where I'm like, she's kind of brainwashing herself.

Maven [03:11:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:45] You can't kind of. You can't totally blame the church necessarily for all.

Maven [03:11:49] I think they taught me to do it.

John Dehlin [03:11:51] Right.

Maven [03:11:51] Yeah. Well, but if we're going back kind of like to the.

John Dehlin [03:11:55] The.

Maven [03:11:55] The scrupulosity, I. I was really worried about apostasy, you know, so thoughts were really scary to me. Even just, like a really minor one. Even just being uncomfortable with things at the temple, that was, like, a potential, you know, thing that could grow. So. Yeah, so just. It just. Even like, just being dissatisfied with something again, especially, like, temple stuff, because that's from Heavenly Father, Right?

John Dehlin [03:12:21] Right.

Maven [03:12:22] That's a place to inject, like, your own pride, where you think you could know something or run something better than God or better than the priesthood holders and prophets and apostles that he calls for something. So, yeah, it didn't take much for an idea to feel dangerous to me. And. And all of these words. So, like, it's push them out, you know, and. And you can do that really successfully a lot until you go to the temple the next time. And then you have to. You have to deal with it again and deal with the veil again. And so, yeah, so that. That is something too, because I. I wasn't a feminist, but I did, like, the church is saying, like, you know, that rhetoric, like, just different roles, but you're equal still, but in different ways, you know, and so, like, I really held on to that and And I, you know, there's an answer for everything. And I remember being told once, like, the, the people who work at the temple, you know, the temple matrons, like, they know a lot of stuff. I mean, first of all, they're older because, because. And of course, every time you go to the temple, you're supposed to learn new things. So there's this idea that the older people in the church who've been to the temple, so I just have all of this knowledge, you know, which never really quite came true for me. As much as I went. It was the same stuff, you know, But I remember, like, really being under the impression. And I guess you guys could tell me if you thought this too, or if you remember being told this. But I remember thinking, like, I can ask one of these women in the celestial room, like, where it's appropriate. Of course you go through the whole thing. So I remember, like, getting up the courage once because it's so quiet in there, like, you don't talk, you know. But I was like, I just really want to know why we have to veil our faces. So I went up to one of the ladies standing there in the celestial room, and I asked her, like, hey, do you know, do you know why we have to veil our faces? And her face, she just looked like deer in the headlights. Like, no idea. And I remember her just telling me, like, to pray about it basically, and look. Well, obviously I have, I've been trying to figure this out for a while. And so I thought maybe she just had this kind of special knowledge. So I remember that being a real disappointment because I, I, I thought that this was, you know, the ladies at the temple would be the speaking of knowledge and know, like, some deeper secrets. I guess. So anyway, I never figured it out. I do remember, like, if we just kind of fast forward a little bit and then we can come back to, like, where I'm at in the story, the temple is just always rough, like, every time, like, for those same points, like, they, as much as you try to justify, like, push them away, like, they still hurt. And so I, I would just struggle and struggle and struggle. And this was like, also like, way after Kate Kelly and the ordained movement. I think one of the, one of the last times I went to the temple, I thought to myself, like, you know what? Maybe, maybe the issue is, like, as much as the church says we're equal and stuff, like, like, if we're really, really honest, maybe we're not really, like, even in God's eyes. Like, not, not enough to where like, some churches, like, really think, like, men are up here and, like, women are, like, way down here, you know? But I was thinking, like, maybe it is true, like, this is where the men are and women are just, like, under just a little bit right here. And maybe the reason why, like, I struggle so much every time is because, like, in my. Again, like, vain pride, vanity, I'm trying to elevate myself, like, above my station by trying to feel equal with the men. So this was, like, a thought that I had, like, and again, trying to make myself feel better about it. It did not work. But that was. The thought was like, maybe you just. You need to accept this, and then it won't, like, hurt so much to see it because you're not trying to make yourself more than, like, what you should be. So that was a really sad thought. But I did feel like. I mean, I'm a believer. I see. You know, I've been in the church my whole life, but I really felt like, you know, maybe it's true, you know, God wants men to, like, to do all of these things, and, like, he doesn't want women doing that, you know? So, yeah, I think that was probably one of the last times I went. That's in the future, though. But we can. So we can come back. I think that's, for me, the same. The same feeling. One of the same feelings I got within the temple, which I think is sad that even. Even to my heavenly father, I won't ever be good enough. Like, I just had this feeling like I'm not. Yeah. Like, I'm. This is a place where I'm supposed to be, like, in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. I'm doing everything right. You know, I've got my card, had all the interviews. I answered all the same questions that the boys answer. You know, I'm supposed to be in the same place. You know, this lecture room is supposed to be in the same. Same place, same level. And I didn't feel like that in there. Yeah, even in that space, I still felt less than I think. Maybe not even in that space, but, like, especially in that space because I feel like almost in regular life, it's a little bit easier to pretend, you know, and it's just kind of depending on your personal dynamics with everybody else. But I think with it being the temple, like, this is about God, and this is, like, what God has set up. So it's just, like, really, really clear. Like, this is what God says, and this is how you are different, you know? I guess.

John Dehlin [03:17:39] Yeah.

Maven [03:17:40] I really did. And, you know, like John was saying, I'm. I wasn't a feminine. I didn't consider myself a feminist because that. Feminism, like, that was a bad word. That was. That was an F word in my house, you know, because it wasn't. Feminism wasn't equality. You know, it was, again, this kind of a caricature of it of, you know, men hating women.

John Dehlin [03:18:02] Called them feminazis.

Maven [03:18:03] Yeah, yeah, right. Yep. I am familiar with that term. Absolutely. Yeah. So. Yeah, so again, yeah, I just wanted to feel like. I just wanted to feel equally loved as a daughter as it seemed like the sons were loved. So. Yeah, so that was. Yeah, that was tough. But I get like, I. You still, like, the temple's supposed to be super great, so you still say all the right things, you know, I. You know, I. Things are rough. It's because I haven't been to the temple in a while or I. I went to the temple this weekend. I felt so peaceful, you know, like, you say the things, you know. Anyway, afterwards, my dad says, he said this to my other brother to. But it was kind of like a joke. Like, I think he said, like, the church is still true is what it was. Like, we were just sitting in the car. It's just kind of quiet for a while. And that's what he said. The church is still true.

John Dehlin [03:18:58] Another thought stopper.

Maven [03:18:59] Yeah, but I was like, no, I'm fine. Because I really did feel like it was fine. Like, I honestly felt like I came out of this, like, definitely better than some of my friends. And so I think I did. I. Overall, I felt fine. And again, like, those. Those initial things, I wasn't ruminating on them at all. Like, it was just the first time. So I guess just moving on and all. Right. Now I know. You know, again, like, I'm in the inner circle. I. I've got the underwear now. And I like, I still, like, I sometimes wonder, like, I just. I was so accepting of that. I know there's a lot of people that really had a hard time with it. I did think it was kind of strange, but I was like, I don't know. I just, like, I accepted the. It reminds you of your covenants. That's good enough for me, you know? So. Yeah, it's just weird, like, how, okay, you can be with, like, random things sometimes, but. But the, like, the church was my life again. I just believed everything. I didn't have any reason to question anything. So, yeah, so I. I go on my mission, you know, I'm in the MTC for a couple weeks. I. I think that was a pretty normal experience. I don't really have much to share there. I. This was something that I hadn't mentioned actually, earlier, but because. Because of the toxicity in the home, I had started to be really a lot less expressive about myself. Myself. And it was just kind of. Because it did seem like, again, the kind of the superstition. I didn't. Good things, if you like them too much, you don't get to keep them. And so a lot of times, like, again. And this would also, like, again, come from my brother. Like, like I said, like, when he was upset, like, something would get broke or someone would get hurt. It was. It was kind of like that kind of a thing. But even, like with my relationship with my mother, it seemed like things that I liked were often used as leverage and reused over and over. It makes sense as a parent, as a general parenting strategy, you know, if you do need to discipline your kids, that if there's something that they like that you withhold that. It wasn't like that. It just was kind of constant. And it just depended. At least to me, it felt like it really depended on my mother's feelings rather than any kind of, like, fairness or set expectations or rules they would change. So I couldn't ever really know that I knew the right expectations to follow. So it was easier to not care. And I guess the biggest example of that was this was one of the last things. Like, before, I guess I just kind of internalized the strategy of not caring. Was like, it would have been my first concert. It was tickets to NSync. They were coming to Las Vegas. And so I don't know. People don't know. Like, it was the boy band era, like, Backstreet Boys in sync, like, 98 degrees. Like, this was all, like, the big thing. So, yeah, so we were. We. That was the thing. My mom had bought concert tickets, and so those were constantly used as leverage, like, over and over again. And so I remember one day I was supposed to clean my room, which I did. And normally that was really rough for me. So, like, I was a very disorganized kid. I'm still disorganized in a lot of ways, but it was no small feat to actually do that. So I did it. But my bed was a little bit messed up because I had been sitting on it. So I had, like, pulled my blanket up around me. But when my mom got home, you know, and I had taken it off and I went out and she came and saw the Bed wasn't made, which, again, just super minor. But I. I feel like she was upset with me, and I feel like that was used as an excuse, rather as, like, the real reason why. So she was like, I'm gonna cancel these tickets. I think she wanted a reaction from me, like begging or pleading or something. And I just remember saying, like, okay. Like. And so she's like, I'm. I'm. And I think she thought I was calling her bluff. I guess maybe kind of was, but I'm gonna do it. And so she did. And then she was mad at me. She's like, those were expensive tickets. You know, I just remember thinking, like, you're the one that gather them. Like, we could still go. That. That was you, you know, but that was just one example. Yeah. So just I was afraid to like things or to show that I liked things. And this was how I was starting to be. And even, like, relationships with people. I think I felt vulnerable. If you show you like people, then they know that they can hurt you, maybe. So this is where, like, my mission was really good for me because I didn't realize what a robot that I had turned into by this point. So, yeah. So I start my mission. I have a wonderful, wonderful trainer. I really love my mission president. And it. So coming in where I was at, the previous mission president had. It had been kind of a baseball baptism kind of mission. It was all about the numbers. So, like, I'm hearing all these things that, like, rumors and stuff that, like, really just are, like, a year away or a couple months, like, from. Because I only had one mission president. I was there, like, right in the middle of his tenure. Right. I'm hearing about, like, hot tub baptisms happening at, like, 1am at people's houses and things like that. Right. It's just really crazy. And, you know, my trainer had been here through part of that. So, like, she also talked to me about what it was like. And so she's like, I really like this mission president because we really are focused on the quality, and I'm really, really grateful for that.

John Dehlin [03:23:47] So it seems like every mission's either a baseball baptism mission or a reaction or response or recovery from a baseball baptism mission. Yeah, you're either in one or the other.

Maven [03:23:58] Yeah. Because we. They had to, I mean, obviously have taken all the lessons and preach my gospel is pretty new at this point. So I remember, like, not all missions even had it. Most were starting to. Mine did. So mine was a preach my gospel mission. But, yeah, this is new. And so, like, the Focus really was like, was supposed to be on. On quality. But I, we somebody, they had to come to church four times minimum. So there, there was a minimum one month between, like when you meet somebody and baptize them, if they came to church immediately, like right away. And then children would have to like, they would have to have a member parent or like they. We would basically. It was really rare, but if a child wanted to be baptized that did not have member parents or like at least a member parent, we would have a commitment from the parents to bring this kid to church every single week. We would commit the parents to do that until they were old enough to drive themselves or take themselves some way. So I don't think we really baptized any kids that didn't have, you know, I mean, there was a part member family. Like one of my baptisms was a child of a woman who was a member and the husband was not. And we had to have this talk with her. So, yeah, stuff like that. And the previous missionaries too, I think spent a lot of time at members houses, which I think may be kind of a problem everywhere because of the like, mission culture of kind of like the mission worship. But just everyone has family members out. So I almost feel like there's this kind of reciprocation. You want to treat the missionaries well in your area because you hope that members will treat your relatives and loved ones well wherever they're at. At. So we read really strict rules about being with members. Like we, you know, dinners had to be an hour only. We were supposed to eat that first half hour and teach a lesson the second half. But like never worked because they were never ready on time. Like when we got there and then the, like, we just weren't allowed to hang out there at all. And I think our. We were also limited just I think like once or twice a week. And so I remember in my first area they would buy groceries for us a lot to kind of make up for the fact that we couldn't get a lot of meals with them. So those were, I guess, the rules we were coming in. And of course, I think when there's like a baseball baptism culture, there's usually a disobedient culture too, I think.

John Dehlin [03:26:26] Yeah, totally.

Maven [03:26:27] Yeah. We were not allowed headphones at all. Like on my mission, anything that was going to be listened to had to be listened to by both companions. And that was something he was very strict on. When I met my mission president in the mission home was if you get caught even having headphones, I didn't even Bring any with me because I knew that beforehand. But if you got caught with them just like listening to an earbud, like, they would send you home. That's what he said.

John Dehlin [03:26:50] That's strict.

Maven [03:26:51] Yeah, I think that lessened over time, but that's where I came in at. So my parents both ended up remarrying other people within the first six months of my mission. My mother was first. And this was back in the time where you couldn't. You could only call home twice a year. There was Mother's Day and then there was Christmas Day. So I. It was May. I talked to my mother on Mother's Day. She was on LDS singles, which was like, pretty new at that time. And like, that was one of the big places to go online to meet other Mormons. And so she was going to meet a guy the next day and she was really excited about it. So. So, yeah, so I have my talk with her. She. I get my email on P Day, which we had. It was Thursdays for us. And she, like, she did something with him every day leading up until that point. She was really excited. And she already was talking about marriage with that. And so we. I mean, I didn't think too much of it. It is kind of normal to, like. I mean, I even talked about marriage on first dates with people. But then the next P Day, it was more up to about how in love with this guy she was. And she had said, like, we really are. We're getting married. And so I, again, I just thought, like, this is just the. The plan, you know? And so I got a phone call that Saturday from my mission president saying that my mom wanted to talk to me, you know, about getting married. And I just. I don't know if she wanted my opinion or something, but I was in the mindset, like, she's a. She's an adult, you know, so, like, if she wants to get married, she can get married. It seems like it. She's definitely going really quickly, but that's also not that unusual in the church. So it was the next P Day, which was the first week of June, that I found out that she had married by the end of May. So met and married within. Within a couple weeks. Yeah. And so that did surprise me. But still, at the end of the day, I just thought, like, she's.

John Dehlin [03:28:49] Yeah.

Maven [03:28:49] You know.

John Dehlin [03:28:50] Yeah. And one thing that might blow the minds of people who don't know about Mormon missions is that you're not allowed to go home to your own parents weddings because as a missionary, you can't even go home for significant family members dying usually or. Or it's stigmatized if you do. So it sounds like both your parents get married and you don't get to attend either wedding. Yeah.

Maven [03:29:13] And I think maybe just because of the family environment, I was pretty surprisingly okay with it. So it was. My companion at the time seemed a lot more freaked out about it than I was. She had a very close and cohesive family. And so like finding out that my mother got married, she. She would continually ask me over the next, like, are you sure you okay? Like, do you need to talk about it? And I would say, yeah, I'm. I'm really fine. I. I don't need to talk about it. It. And yeah, so I think it's just really wild for her that I had that kind of reaction. But I guess that's just where I was. My dad took a little bit longer, but he also met his wife on LDS singles, so they had just a couple months courtship and then. And they got married. So between the new like step parents and a bunch of step. There was 10 new family members that I got that I never met within that first six months. So. Yeah. And then, I mean, I did deal with some anxiety and depression. It was definitely tough, like going out tracking and things like that. And so I did have times where I stayed in, of course, and I did feel guilty for doing that, but I. I was able to usually kind of push through it. And so in some ways I think it was kind of good because I had dealt with some like almost debilitating anxiety at school. Once things started getting really tough for me, I would, I would just. I mean, this is what sad like I had been in Hawaii, but there were some days that, I mean like several days in a row that I would be maybe at least 20 hours in my dorm room, like not even going outside just because I'm so overwhelmed with life and with things. So I think that was one good thing about the mission was the fact, like did you had to go out anyway? We had a companion and you know, it was. Most of the time it was scarier to me to have to call the mission president or his wife to say that we're not going to out than it was to like at least go out. And so I learned from that, like, I can do hard things and sometimes if there's something just really overwhelming, just taking just one step, you know. So sometimes just like getting out the door, you know, or that first knock on that first door and things got a lot better after that. So in a way, I think for me, that was actually really, really good for me to see, like, it's not always the end of the world when it feels like it. Of course, there's some sexism on the mission. Again, this is like, this is before the age range was dropped. So there sisters were very, very rare. I think the most that we had, we represented almost 10% of the mission, but that was the most. And I think maybe that was like, 18 sisters in, like, 120 missionaries. I think a lot of the sexism was really just kind of us being an afterthought because they were just like a small portion of things. So I remember, like, when it was starting to get to be summer and really hot at a Zoe conference, our mission president announced to the elders they didn't have to wear the jackets or the long sleeves anymore. Of course, unless you were tattooed, then you do continue to have to wear the long sleeves. And after that announcement, he was getting ready to sit down. And my mission president's wife was amazing. She's a spitfire of a person. I think if I ever heard her give a talk in general conference, and that primary voice, I would be personally devastated because she has her own voice and she was very spunky. So, yeah, I loved her anyway, so she. She just, like, pipes up, you know, what about the sisters? And, like, he comes back to the mic. But I remember him being kind of confused and just looking at her and being like, what about him? Because, like, we can already wear short sleeves and things like that. So, yeah, so he's like, you know what? What do they need? And she just yells out pantyhose. And everybody starts giggling, of course, like, the elders and then us. And he was like, are those hot? And she was like, yeah, and they are. But I think just because it's like, a really thin material, it's just something like that. Guys would never think about that. They are really hot, and they can be really suffocating. So even in skirts, even in the summertime. So, yeah, so that was just kind of like a funny thing. And so the mission president was like, okay, sisters, you don't have to wear pantyhose. We don't call him that, but it's still. It's funny. And then there was one area I got put into with a companion right after elders. So I guess whitewashing is the term, putting in a whole new companion. And so when we got there, the bedroom did not have any kind of curtains or covering at all. It's just a big open Window. And not only that, but just behind our apartment, the land kind of like went up a little bit. So if someone was back there, they would be standing higher or like at level with the window. So they looking in the window, you can see the entire bedroom and like you can see our beds. So like if someone were standing out there, they could watch us sleeping. Right. So of course we are not comfortable with this. And so we call the office elders. Like maybe, maybe guys don't care, you know, because they never like have to worry about their safety or whatever. So. But yeah, it was definitely a concern to us. So I remember we called the office elders to ask like, can we get some blinds or you know, something over. And they, they kind of like joked around, like made fun of us. Like, oh, of course the sisters want curtains. Like it's, it's not good enough for them. Like they got it, you know, like have to, you know. And like we pushed back and we're like, this is a wide open window and they're like, who's going to be back there? It's like it doesn't matter who's going to be back there or the likelihood. Just like the fact that someone can. I. You don't want, want for something to happen first before you go, oh, okay, now this makes sense. But we didn't get curtains and you don't get enough stipend money. We weren't going to spend money on that. So I had an American flag. My brother, the one close in age to me, he had joined the military and he had been over in Afghanistan. So I had gotten this flag from him. So that's what we put up for our window coverage. Those are I guess really like the only complaints. Like I said, my leaders, like the district leaders I had, I thought were really great. There was one that noticed that I struggled to take compliments very well. So he made that a personal assignment. And so I would have conversations with him in the weekly or nightly check ins. He would give me a compliment or more than one sometimes. And I had to say, I just had to say thank you and, and not refute it or try to change the subject or you know, anything like that. And he did that for a while. And it was excruciating at the time, but it was, but it was really good for me. And my companions were really good for me too. They were helping me get out of my shell. Like my. Again, my first, my trainer was great. She was very communicative and so I felt like I trusted her and I could share My feelings with her, she didn't push me. But I know some trainers can be, like, just really forceful and, you know, go for it, you know, this is your door, you know, and just be really strict about it. But she. I mean, she still pushed me to do things. She didn't just let me get away with anything, but. But she didn't feel like it was her job to be, like, my military commander, I guess, and, like, forcing me to do things if I was feeling really unsure. So I had really good companions. I just. I had one that wasn't very good for me, but. But other than that, I. I remember really learning, like, the truth really matters. And I. I guess it's surprising to me now, like, how many people will stay in the church even if they. They believe or know it, it's not true. But the. My mission really just drove things home. I mean, one. There was a talk from a mission president in his own conference once where he just was saying, like, we teach this because it's true, not because, like, oh, it's a good place to raise families, or, you know, values and things like that. Like, if it's not true, like, this is. This is not worth it. What we're doing here is not worth it. So I remember, like, really taking it in, like, yeah, we're here because this is the truth. And not only that, but I used to ask people all the time, like, if. If this. If this church were the true church, would you join it? Which is a really common question. And I get that now, and I just laugh because I didn't realize what a terrible question that was. But to me, I thought it was genius because if the. It just showed if they really cared or not to me, about truth. So if I said, if this was true, would you join it? If they said anything other than yes, then I didn't think they cared about it. But I had a Jehovah's Witness actually, like, hit me with that first once, which surprised me. And I had never really considered it from another point of view like that. So I did. I took it genuinely. And I thought about, like, what if I was wrong, being Mormon my whole life? And it was actually the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I was able to come through a revelation or, you know, some kind of spiritual experience. I came to this conclusion, like, would I be willing to leave the church and join that? You know, no more birthdays and, you know, all that kind of stuff, right? And I thought to myself, I would, because if that is God's church, and if that's where he is. That is what I care about. And so I just remember that kind of just really driving it home for me as well. I'm not just in this because I was born in it. I believe it and I'm here because I think it is true. And that's what matters to me. So that was a big, I guess, impact and kind of a recurring theme throughout my mission. And then so in my first area, I actually spent half my mission there. I was there for nine months and three companionships. And that's where I met my first, the first trans person, at least you know, that I was told was trans. And that was a Sister, Jennifer Blackwell. Yeah, I think you may be familiar with.

John Dehlin [03:38:39] We interviewed her. Yeah, we can put that in the show notes.

Maven [03:38:41] Yeah, it's funny, I had actually connected with her through Steph. Steph had posted a picture. I knew a little bit about her story. I knew that she was from Utah. I knew that she had left her family and that they didn't really have anything to do with her anymore, like her children. And I remember thinking that that was really sad. But of course, for where I was then, I was like, it's understandable though, you know, which really is a pity. But I am so I, and this is, I feel like pretty recently when, like after I lost my faith is when I saw Steph's photo selfie that she posted in the ex Mormon Reddit. And she was saying like, I'm going to see, you know, another mother or my other mother that I don't know. I just, the title made me think she's visiting a trans mother that she has not seen, seen or had a relationship with. And I remember thinking, I wonder if that, you know, if that's Sister Blackwell. And I really. And when I, I saw the picture, I thought it looked like her, but then I couldn't decide. I kept flip flopping, like back and forth like, yeah, that's a. I think this is her kid. No, it's not. It's. No, it's just. Yes, it is. I think it is. I finally messaged anyway, so. Yeah, but I wasn't expecting Steph to be on the show either. So that was like a new thing and kind of a, an interesting surprise. Surprise. But.

John Dehlin [03:39:55] And for listeners, viewers who don't know. So Jennifer raised Mormon, I think, in Idaho, but ultimately comes out, transitions, comes out as a, as a trans female

Maven [03:40:08] leaves in the 80s.

John Dehlin [03:40:10] Yeah, in the 80s. Leaves her family, her Mormon family, moves away, becomes ostracized from her child who later transitions herself.

Maven [03:40:25] Right.

John Dehlin [03:40:25] So it's a pretty. It's a pretty powerful.

Maven [03:40:28] It is a powerful story. I definitely recommend, if they haven't seen it, to check it out. Yeah, that's where I met her. She was in the ward I was in and I. We didn't interact with her very much, but I did know a little bit about her story. And of course, we saw her every week. So, like, my next area was in Allentown, Pennsylvania. I. I don't know if anyone's familiar with Billy Joel. Yeah, he's got.

John Dehlin [03:40:49] Oh, yeah, yeah, we're living here and out of town.

Maven [03:40:53] It's an apt song. I listened to it after it. I was like, you know, I get it. Because it. It's definitely. I mean, this was. Yeah, a lot of poverty. Yeah. And this was also. So there were elders. They were. They were in actual Allentown. The sisters were in the suburb areas around it. And that's kind of how the mission was. Anything. They did not put sisters in Philly. They had the elders down there. We were put in like, you know, the more considered safer areas. Right, right. So, yeah, so there's a pair of elders and a pair of sisters. Like, we shared this ward and the sisters had the car because our area was more spread out and they could do more on foot in the. In the city where they were. Right. But this was a really interesting ward, like, because of it. Because there was such a huge split between like rich suburbs where most of white people lived and most of the black people were in the city and they were poorer. And this ward was. Was just really burnt out by the elders from that previous mission. I think that was the mission where there was like the 1am hot tub baptism. And this is another thing too. Like, I mean, it. The gospel is taught a lot as if, like it's like a. This panace, like it'll fix anything. Like it can fix poverty. Right. If you're righteous. I mean, even like in my own family, even though I wasn't seeing it, the whole prosperity gospel things. So it's. This is the area that I really learned. Like the church can't fix deep poverty issues if there's addictions, if there's just a lot of unhealthiness. And you just. You just can't fix it by being baptized or just going to church on Sunday when there's like, there's systemic issues. Like you just don't have resources, you know. And I guess this is another sexism thing. Actually, I did notice because, I mean, this was overt. They really, really wanted us to focus on priesthood holders or potential priesthood holders. So this was something like we would be told, like, you know, try to find guys like, of course we're not going to turn away women who want to join the church. But, you know, if we found a new investigator that was a woman, we would always be asked, is she married? Does she have a husband or a boyfriend or father in the home or brother or a teenage son? Is there anybody else also a guy that we could be sure to try to pull in as well to have priesthood holders? So it definitely, I think, kind of added to the idea that women just aren't worth as much. A woman convert is not worth as much as a male convert convert. One last area that I was in, I had, there was an investigator and her husband was really sick. It was like stage four lung cancer. And so he wasn't part of the lesson so much because it was like deteriorating, was going downhill really quick. But she was a really great woman. She had had a lot of the discussions, but she just like, she didn't get baptized because she was just taking care of her husband mostly. So he ended up in the hospital. Like, again, things were really starting to go downhill. Like, we knew it was going to be the end. And so we actually got the elders to come and give him a blessing. And they just kind of, you know, it was a nice blessing, but, you know, thankfully they didn't have the hubris to promise full healing. That would have been really bad. But they blessed him basically to go on into the next life, you know. And so I, they decided to do like home hospice. Like, he wanted to be able to die at home when it happened. He didn't want to be in the hospital for that. And so something happened. There's just, I guess the day that they decided to take him home, they didn't have enough people or something because he was a pretty big guy. And the, well, the place that they lived in, it was not like handicake. It didn't have a ramp or anything. There was like several concrete steps. So he was brought home in an ambulance so he could have all the right life support stuff, like to get him in. But the, I guess the ambulance staff, it was that en route, realized, like, we're not going to have enough to be able to get this guy up steps if there's not any other way inside the house. So our investigator called us in a panic and she was like, is there anyone that can help? And we didn't think there would be because she did not live close to any members, but we go ahead and we call up, you know, the elders quorum president, and we're like, is there anyone around? Can we get any guys here, like, you know, heavy, like, big guys that can help get this guy up these concretes steps into the house? And it just so happened like that he and, like, the second counselor from the bishopric were, like, a couple blocks away. They happened to be out together. They happened to be in that neighborhood. So it just really seemed like, you know, like God was watching out. This is a miracle. So they come and they're able to get there. Right as the ambulance gets there, my companion and I go up. Like, we're standing on either side of the door. I'm, like, holding it open. They. They bring him up and they bring him across the threshold. And as. As soon as he's across the threshold, old, I. I see him stiffen up. And I didn't realize what had happened at first. I thought maybe because of the bump, it was just kind of like a. A cringe, like a pain kind of a thing. But. But he passed away, I guess, in a way, like, he got what he wanted. But, like, a lot of his family were there or they were on their way for the transport. They weren't expecting him to go, like, right then and there. And that day, you know, they thought they had at least a few weeks. So I remember, like, his mom wasn't there because she had gone to the pharmacy to get some medicines for him that he was going to need, you know, And I remember feeling kind of really awkward, like, this is obviously a very painful moment. So I remember, like, going up to her asking, like, do you want us to leave? And she was like, no, I want you to stay. So. So we did. And, you know, we were happy to. I remember his mom coming home and, you know, and finding out he was gone and. And her cry over that and the other relatives coming and things like that. And I. I just, like. I didn't know what to do, you know, I wanted to help, but I. I just. This is not something that they ever go over, you know. But there was. There was a lady there, like, from the county, I guess. I think. I don't know when she got there, but she had to be, I think, for the body, just to make sure, like, they didn't. Yeah, I don't know, but she was there. She just kind of set up. She had paperwork, and she just set up in a corner just out of the way. And I remember going up to her because I Mean, part of me kind of felt like I should know what to do because I'm a missionary, you know, for, for God and you know, I should have like the right, perfect, beautiful thing to say, you know, but I didn't and I, so I just went up to this lady and she's used to this, this is, part of her is dealing with death and you know, things like this. So I remember like going up to her and saying like, I don't know what to do, you know, and she was really great. And she said, you know, just, just listen. They're, they're going to want to talk about them. They're wanting, they're going to want to tell stories. They'll be crying, they'll be laughing, but just listen, ask them questions, get them talking about their loved one and like some of the best advice like to date that I've received about something like this. And I remember even at the time thinking like, isn't it interesting that like something so poignant and so important and useful was, was not something ever given to me by the church, you know, but I had to get as a representative of the Lord, you know, from a lady. But I mean, but it was great. And so that's what we did. I'm really, really grateful that it was not in my mind to be like, this is a great missionary opportunity to like talk about the plan of salvation to all these non members. You know, I, I am really grateful that that's not where I was at because that would have been really awful. But there was a point where like his mother that came up to me and she said, I found his baptismal certificate from some Protestant, you know, vacation Bible school or something from when he was a kid. So I remember her saying like, I'm so glad I found this, you know, I, I was really worried, you know, and of course that like in our theology it doesn't matter anyway. This is not from us, it's not from the like priesthood, you know, legitimate baptism, not legitimate, you know, but of course I, I, I don't say that because that's dumb. And yeah, and so, but I still, I wanted, so I said, you know, I think, I think God really cares about our hearts. And, and he, I don't think he would care even if that, if he didn't, if that piece of paper wasn't there, I, I don't think he would be in hell. I, I think, you know, God loves your son, son like you love him. And so like that's as far as I went with that but, yeah, I just kind of, like, moved around. It's like it's starting to get later. Obviously, we were there for several hours, but it still just didn't feel quite right to go home yet. So I am. So I think I had the phone. So I call our. Our district leader and explain what happened. Like, this person passed away, and so we're here with the family. And again, a really great leader. He's like, I'm so sorry, sisters. Just let us know if there's anything that you need. You know, just take your time. And, yeah, we're really sorry that that happened. And so, you know, we said thank you, and we will try to get home at a reasonable time. Of course, it's just like. Just when it feels right. So all of those calls are supposed to go up the chain to the mission president. So I don't think anything like, that's it as far as I'm concerned. But a few minutes later, we get a phone call from our zone leaders. And so I answer it, and they say, like, hey, what's up? We heard you're not home. So I thought maybe there's maybe some kind of a miscommunication between the district leader and the zone leader. So I just started explaining again, like, why our. Our investigator's husband passed away. We're here with the family. You know, we'll try to get home when we can. And he says to me, he says, sister, what does the white handbook say about curfew? And I remember just. I mean, I really liked my leaders. And even if, like, up to this point, if they had some kind of a weird assignment in a district leader meeting or a zone meeting, I always went with it. It was never a big deal. But, you know, I just. I wanted to support them in their leadership. So even. Even if they did something I thought was stupid, like, it was my job to sustain and support. This is the first time I was ever just like, excuse me. What. You know, so what I. What I said back was, I know what's in the white handbook, Elder. And if there's people who don't know, like, that's. It's all of the rules that we are supposed to follow as a missionary, which includes curfew and when you're supposed to be home. So, yeah, so he tried to kind of, like, obedience brings blessings. Me. Give me a lesson on this, you know, And I just.

John Dehlin [03:51:47] Just.

Maven [03:51:47] I remember feeling so confident. This is one of, like, the first times feeling confident going against a leader, going against a man, specifically somebody like it. You Know, with some authority over me. And I said, so I just pushed back on it and I said, I know what the white handbook says. We're not going to stay here all night. We're not going to be unreasonable. When the time is right, we'll go home and I'll call and I'll let you know when we get there. There. And I told him because again, I had a really good mission president who really cared about real stuff and people. I was like 99% sure if he had a problem with it, he could ask the mission president and he would side with us. And so I invited him to do that. I said, if you have a problem with it, you can go ahead and call president. And if he has a problem with it, he can call us. And didn't hear back. And I really want to know sometimes if he did call or not, because I kind of hope he did, because I feel like if he did, I think he would have gotten a really good reaming from president. And so in my mind, I'm kind of hoping that he got one. But anyway. But even this guy, I don't know if he'll recognize this story. It's been a long time. Maybe he won't remember. But, I mean, I've heard from other sources that he regrets how he was as a leader, that this is actually something that, that he realized that was maybe unhealthy about what he did it. So I hear he's like a really, really great guy now, so I just wanted to put that out there.

John Dehlin [03:53:12] But is there any final. I know you have that story about the temple after your mission.

Maven [03:53:18] Yeah, I can, we can wrap up with that. I, I. After my mission, I was in the temple. I don't even remember which one anymore. But the, they had asked for volunteers to do ceilings. They said they needed some, some people. So it was me and then some other returned missionary guy that I had never met before, who was, you know, the proxy husband across from the altar while I was the proxy wife. And the sealer was the previous mission president of my mission. And I remember, like, when I learned who he was, I, I went, we went through and did all of the ceilings. But I was wondering if I should say something or, or mention it. I wasn't very impressed with him because of what happened under his leadership. But when we were done with the ceilings, he started talking to the guy that had been the proxy husband for these. You know, just back from a mission. He says, yep. Where did you serve? He says, where he served. They have this whole conversation and, and I'm sitting, I'm standing right next to him and I'm, and I'm just trying to think, like, what am I going to say? Like when he, when he talks to me and he asks me like, you know, when I, if I came back from a mission and where I served, and when I say like I served in his mission, what am I, I going to say? But when he was done talking to the guy, he just left the room. And I remember kind of thinking like, oh yeah, like why would he, why would he talk to me? Like, why would he think. Because women still, they didn't serve a lot. Why would he even think to ask me if I served a mission? It was just another thing where I was just like, I remember feeling silly for feeling equal, like, for feeling like I was going to get like equal attention as the guy that I was standing right next to do.

John Dehlin [03:54:52] But that's it.

Maven [03:54:54] Yeah, that's the mission.

Returning Home and State of Testimony After Mission

John Dehlin [03:54:56] So if you had to describe the state of your testimony and the state of your mental health and well being and self confidence at the end of

Maven [03:55:04] your mission, I would actually say it was improved then from when I went out, which it seems rare, I guess, but maybe that just might be the stories that I hear, the stories that you're allowed to tell, you know, now that you, you aren't really allowed to say before, but yeah, I think overall it was very good for me. There were definitely some things that hurt. There were things, there were things that weren't good. But overall I really did, I think, benefit from it.

John Dehlin [03:55:32] How so?

Maven [03:55:33] I think from, from the companions I had that helped me like learn how to act like a human being again. Just from the elders that treated me really well. I mean, I gave the few examples, but those were really standouts. I never felt like they thought less of me, so I really did feel like a camaraderie with them. And then my mission president, he just, he cared about the right things. And so I just think if I had been under the previous mission president where it was all numbers, I think that would have really hurt my testimony. And so I think that's probably why it was strengthened because, because it really did match up to a lot of what I thought missionary work would be, which is trying to find that golden person. So other than just a few things here and there, I'm learning to be friends. I'm learning to express myself. I'm learning to even have conversations about criticisms in a neutral way without freaking out. And overall my testimony was improved. I would say, I really felt like. I really felt like I, I knew Jesus and, and like what it was to, like, really love and care about people. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:48] Oh, well, that's, you know, I, I feel really good about my mission experience as well. And that's one of the really hard, maybe ambivalent things about struggling with your Mormon experience is there are so many experiences that, that were often good or healthy or that even strengthened you. And it sounds like your mission was that for you.

Maven [03:57:11] It was, yeah. It was one step, at least out of my shell. The church still had me in one, but I think, I guess a different one than the family was got me in. I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [03:57:28] So I guess we're. We'll complete part two now and

Maven [03:57:33] when

John Dehlin [03:57:34] we do the interview for part three, it's going to be kind of, how do you go from being a valiant, righteous, empowered, returned missionary with the best mental health and well being you'd ever had? How do you go from that to Maven?

Maven [03:57:48] To Maven? How do you fall so far? And that'll be part three or Rise so high.

John Dehlin [03:57:55] There you go. Yeah, Nice, Jen. All right. Okay. Well, thanks, Maven. This has been fun and, and listeners and viewers, thanks for tuning in today. You know, join us next time for part three where we find out how Maven becomes Maven. Thanks, Jen.

Maven [03:58:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:58:12] Yeah, thanks, Maven. All right, we'll see you guys soon for part three of this story. See you soon.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1597

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your co hosts for today, John Dehlin, and I'm joined by Jen. Hey, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [00:00:11] Hi, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] Welcome.

Jenn Kamp [00:00:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:14] You ready to complete our interview with the epic Maven?

Jenn Kamp [00:00:18] Yes, I am. Yeah. I think this is going to be my favorite part, so I'm super excited. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] All right, so for those of you who don't know, Maven is the. Well, she helps with the Mormonism Live podcast featuring Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon, but she is also a frequent participant on the Mormon slash post Mormon Internet on YouTube and elsewhere, Facebook. And she's back to talk to us about her very Mormon story. Welcome, Maven.

Maven [00:00:47] Thank you for having me back.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And is your hair color slightly different?

Maven [00:00:50] Slightly different, yeah. A little bit of extra growth from last time.

Jenn Kamp [00:00:54] Yeah.

Post-Mission Life and Academic Faith Challenges

John Dehlin [00:00:55] All right, well, we talked about your upbringing. We talked about, you know, your college experiences and your mission. It's fascinating and just so many people love you. So we're ready now to talk about. I mean, if we had to give a summary to today's episode, it's going to be kind of like your faith journey and how you became Maven. Is that right?

Maven [00:01:16] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] All right. Because before in your timeline, before where we're going to start, you're pretty orthodox. You're kind of raised in a really ultra orthodox, almost fundamentalist, doctrinally Mormon home. Right?

Maven [00:01:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] Yeah. So if you haven't checked that out yet, go back and listen to the first portions of my interview with Maven. But where do we go from here, Maven?

Maven [00:01:38] So we're starting from after my mission, but I did just want to say one thing about the mission that I don't think I mentioned before was that this was a part where I guess more of obviously scrupulosity kind of kicked back in. I had lost some of it. But what was something that was reoccurring and disturbing to me on my mission was again, this thought of apostasy and these fears. Because before, the people closest to me that I knew who left the church, I could say, like, oh, it was because of sin, or they never had a testimony. But on the mission, I am starting to meet people now who have served missions, who got married in the temple, uh, who've done all of the righteous Mormon things, who have still fallen away or become an apostate. And that was really disturbing to me because I felt like I was feeling the spirit so much on my mission. How could I ever possibly, you know, stop believing in this? But yet I'M seeing that it does happen to some people. And this was a conversation I would have with companions sometimes is like, how do we make sure, like 10 years from now when we're not feeling this, when we're not in this moment here, how do we know that we can still be in the church? And so we. The primary answer is, you know, just keep going to church. And if we keep reading the Scriptures. And then at one point I just added in sheer stubbornness because I was thinking about historical things and doctrinal things that people learn that really bother them. And I was in that mind frame where you don't know even if something looks like it's really true and maybe the church believes it, maybe kind of a callback to Hoffman. I did know about that. And so maybe if, even if all of the experts say that something is true and something happened, maybe it didn't. Like they eventually found out. And I wouldn't find out till I'm in heaven and it's too, too late now. And I thought this bad thing happened and that made me lose faith. And now God's telling me I was wrong and I've, you know, forfeited my salvation. So in addition to the primary answers. Oh, and also following the brethren, if I'm following the brethren, then I felt like that was pretty safe. Just stubbornness in face of whatever information I might ever come across that would seem really, really, really bad.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] So sounds like a plant. How could it fail?

Maven [00:03:43] I know, right? I'm not sure because I think that could and does keep a lot of people in. So I guess maybe people will find out and they'll write in maybe or comment. So, yeah, so after that, all right, I'm home. I'm briefly living with my mother and my stepdad before I move in with a roommate, an apostate roommate. And I just want a quick shout out to Sarah and thank you for making me feel so uncomfortable sometimes, just because I would have to face sometimes some uncomfortable things about the church and because she wasn't in it. And apologists just like your friends will let you kind of get away with stuff or come up with excuses. She made me kind of face the music sometimes. And. And that was really uncomfortable. But she was really great. I got a job. Like, initially I couldn't go back or get back into school because I was completely broke. And I think we talked about when I left, I was not doing really well in school. I kind of, I think, failed out towards the end of it. And normally, especially if you are a student at BYU Hawaii. And you end with a very low grade. The assumption is that you're probably out at the beach or something. I didn't even have a good suntan to show for it. I was just very depressed and anxious and just not doing well. So I didn't actually even know if I could get back into school. So I'm just home for a year. I got a job with AmeriCorps which gives you grant money. So that's. I'm earning some money and then I'm also earning grant money that will allow me to go back to school. And then I had a double calling. This is the highest I ever got. Sometimes we asked that question. I was on the Institute council and I was like the female stake YSA representative. So I would attend stake meetings and state council meetings to represent that. So I was very, very active in the, in the singles scene. And then it was thanks to my YSA bishop because I did apply to all three BYU's just to see who might take me, if any of them might. And I know BYU Hawaii. Somebody from the office at BYU Hawaii called my bishop to ask about me, I think because of that really bad gpa and he vouched for me. So I was able to get back into BYU Hawaii. So I had enough grant money to get there and I had enough for one semester. And then I just figured, well, I'm gonna just go ahead and get the plane ticket and go and I'll figure out the rest when I'm there. And I did. I was able to be an RA this time. So I had my housing paid for and meals paid for. And so I just had to get loans for the tuition in addition to the grant money. So that was really good. I changed my major initially. We talked about it was teaching English as a second language, which I had come to learn. And partly through my internship that I really didn't like it. I was far more interested in learning about other cultures rather than teaching my own. And I think maybe there's kind of a little bit of colonial, like a colonialization colonization feelings about it that I'm kind of contributing to this anyway, so I changed to anthropology and I, I know this isn't quite a clear career track like there was with tesol, but I figure it's going to be okay because I'm going to be a stay at home mom anyway. It's important to be educated and this is something I'm interested in. And if I don't get married along the way, then I'm sure in One of my classes somewhere there'll be some something of interest in particular that I will think this will be a track that I will go on career wise. So I think it's okay that I don't have a specific career in mind as my backup that I'm supposed to have. So, yeah, it was really great. Cultural anthropology, you're learning about how all kinds of systems work together. Socioeconomic, political systems, just how history and family relationships and how societal relationships are put together. All of these things all influence each other. And you're starting to learn how to and see the pieces of it. And so this is the first time I'm kind of turning a magnifying glass into my own upbringing and my own culture and my own religion. So even under the umbrella of BYU and it being a Mormon school, I'm starting to deconstruct Mormonism. I'm starting to see very clearly how much it is wrapped up in US History and US politics and specifically Republican politics that are just a lot of the doctrines seem to really follow that more and maybe less of God. I'm not sure, you know, So I just kind of keep that in the air. It's a shelf item, I guess, is one way to put it. And not just that, but I'm learning about other kinds of systems, other ways that things are done outside of the way that we do things. And they're not necessarily. I guess I was thinking that God's way should be obviously and clearly better than anything else other people are doing. And so I remember reading an article about patriarchy that was. It was a bit disturbing to me because as I'm reading it, and it's just, you know, a lot of the things that tend to go along with patriarchal societies. And it's. I'm reading it and I just remember thinking, like, wow, this is making patriarchy look, like, really bad, you know, but that the church is a patriarchal system and like, patriarchal blessings, that was always like a really good word to me. So learning that and then also learning, like, matriarchal systems don't have these same problems. It's not just a flip where, like, the women are in control and women are more likely to abuse men. You know, like, it is on the reverse. It's actually a lot more egalitarian, things like that. So things like this kind of start, I mean, a little bit of problem, but. But nothing major. Like I said, I just kind of put it on the shelf or do the, you know, like, the church is perfect, but the people aren't you know, maybe patriarchy is the Lord's way, but, you know, when you have human beings doing it, they tend to not do it the right way. So. So these are fine. I come up with a way to get past it. But there were all kinds of things in so many classes that it was a really common thing for me and my fellow students to feel some cognitive dissonance. And we would know when something hit somebody right in the testimony, because there were just certain responses and things that people would say. And we all knew what was happening and we all just let it happen. I feel like one of the most mild forms would be the teacher would say something or we would discuss something that maybe doesn't exactly support the church narrative about the way the world works. And so I feel like one of the most common questions would be like, wait, what does this mean? And we all knew what that question meant. The question, like, what does this mean in regards to the Gospel? How do we reconcile this? And the teachers knew, and they would kind of answer it, but it would always be vague. It would always be this kind of, like, around the block kind of a thing. But I know I was the one asking that it was a regular occurrence. And if something really got to somebody, we would have kind of a spontaneous bearing of testimonies. And I think people, we've seen this in the church too. Maybe like you've had a Sunday school where somebody says something that bothers somebody else, and so they, they start a testimony and it starts going to. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet. And it just kind of goes way off track. This was something that would happen in class, like, somewhat regularly, and we would just let it happen. Just let, let them say their piece and then we would move on. And that was me. I know at, at least at one point, I also did. I. I just know the church is true. And I, and I, I, I believe in following the prophets, you know, and we just gave each other permission and space to do that. And sometimes we would ask teachers kind of to bear testimony. The dean, his name is Philip MacArthur, brilliant guy. He's a folklorist. I remember him telling our class, because anthropology, like it, is one of those tough majors that are tough on testimonies. And so he talked about his. I think it was his doctoral program when he. It was. No, didn't get that at byu. I don't remember the university. But there was somebody who promised him, promised him that if he made it to the end of his doctorate, that he would no longer be Mormon. And he would also no longer be married. And he was able to buck that. So I remember hearing this testament kind of giving hope, like, yeah, we don't. I don't have to be disturbed about anything that I learned here. I can still have a testimony just like him. And I did. So that was the. I think that's all. Oh no, just one more thing for me, and for a lot of people who come from very conservative backgrounds, I think BYU sometimes is the first place that we're even allowed to kind of think outside of the orthodoxy that we're raised in. So I feel like had I gone to a different school and was learning the same things, I would probably shut up a lot more of it. But because it was byu, but, you know, because my professors had the same religion, I felt I had permission to, to consider these topics. And it was common for us in the major to like for the first time speak about the church in an objective way or a neutral way, or be able to point out that there's some things in it that maybe aren't perfect and that it was okay to talk that way, but not around other majors. Because there was a conflict once at a lunch table with me and a bunch of people from my program sitting next to friends from a business program. And it was clear that they were a bit freaked out about our conversation. That they, I think probably felt that we were apostasizing maybe, but we didn't feel that way. In addition to the anthropology program, I started what at the time was just a certificate program, Peace building and conflict resolution. And now that is a full major at BYU Hawaii today. But at this moment, Chad Ford, who is also brilliant, was building this program from scratch, basically. So the peace building program, I think I initially thought it would be like this kind of kumbaya, you know, like here's how we all get along kind of a program. And I don't know why, I just thought it would be easy. But it was mentally rigorous. It was one of the most difficult aspects of my education there at BYU Hawaii. And that first semester, I almost want to say the first year is all entirely self focused. You are not touching other people's conflicts at all. It's entirely about cognitive dissonance. So that's where I first learn about it. That's where I recognize that's what's happening to my classmates and myself in the anthropology courses that we're taking. And then not just that, but the result of the cognitive dissonance, which is self deception. That's what we do most of the Time to make it go away. So I know, like, everyone knows. It seems like, or at least in this community, a lot of people know what cognitive dissonance is, and they'll point it out all the time. This person's experiencing it, this person's experiencing it. But most of the time what we're seeing is the self deception after cognitive dissonance happens so quickly in our minds. It's just an uncomfortable moment. And our minds are so uncomfortable with it that it has to band Aid it as soon as possible. So that's where the self deception is. So with the Peacebuilding program, everybody is all learning how to, I guess, face the lies that we tell ourselves and start peeling back these layers, like these years and years of lies that you tell about yourself to make you feel good about yourself, to make you feel like a moral person. And it could be really brutal and mentally exhausting because it's not just the peers in your class that know and. And we just held each other accountable. I guess if you're learning about it on your own, you can still take shortcuts and not face something that you don't want to face. But when you have, you know, 30 peers that will keep pushing you and will keep, you know, helping you, helping peel back these layers, yeah, it could be rough. And I would go home just exhausted sometimes. And I think the hardest part about it, I think what made it difficult is it, it's. I would feel bad about myself, but I think for like, the most truest reasons, if that makes sense, because you can feel bad about yourself because of what peers or the church or just whatever your group is, like, whatever they impose on you that you're not fitting up to. But when it comes to self deception, what you're facing is your own, like, most authentic self and the ways that you are disappointing or you are going against your own values. So it's. It's your own internal self and not external. So I realized, like, I'm not the person that I thought I was. Like, if we go back to, like, what I had said about my childhood, about really loving Harriet Tubman, the Underground Railroad, the Holocaust, you know, all of these things, I would think, you know, if I was there in the civil rights, I would be marching with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I would be advocating for people's rights. And I realized, like, there are people who need help now, who need voices and advocacy now, and I am not doing anything for them. So I faced, like, for the first time, the idea that, no, I'm not as righteous As I think I would be. I'm not as strong as I thought I would be. If I was in the civil rights era, just going off of how I am right now, I would be silent on the side because I'm afraid to speak against my group.

Jenn Kamp [00:17:24] Did you feel like other people in your class were also feeling these same things as they were as you were researching and going back and doing all the lessons there?

Maven [00:17:36] Yeah. I mean, and we would have very vulnerable moments with each other. A lot of this stuff, though, it wasn't like everyday therapy. We're all digging. I don't think I ever shared kind of this feeling that I didn't think I would be advocating for rights or, you know, this was a conclusion that I came to on my own, I think after class or doing homework and just having time to process and think. But. But there would be times in class where we would give examples or, you know, and that's where, like, kind of the push would come because, you know, you think, I'm pretty sure I'm right about this. I'm pretty sure I didn't contribute to this conflict, you know, and that's another thing too. Like, we're learning all these behaviors that come along with conflict, not just the self deception, where a lot of times, again, it comes from you doing something against yourself. So now to make yourself feel feel better, sometimes the lie is that the other person, we gotta vilify the other person. We victimize ourselves, or we make ourselves the hero, or sometimes both victim and hero. I'm standing up for myself. You know, it was this person that was wrong. And I'm the good guy here. I didn't do anything wrong. And so it would be these kinds of stories that we would try to tell. And of course, there's things like leaving out things that you did to contribute that make us look good. We leave those out of narratives and ally seeking. We want people to come to our side. So that's. We tell our friends. Let me tell you what this, you know, this lady said to me at the store or whatever it is. And our friends and our family members are just so happy to fill that role for us and not hold us accountable and be our ally and agree with us and right there with it. So we would bring up maybe an example of a conflict we had. And then that's where like, our classmates would come in and be like, okay, but what about this? Was there anything that you did that contributed? Is there something, you know, you could have done differently? Would it have been better if you didn't tell this person. And then, you know, maybe that also added to what happened, you know.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] And so I almost want an introduction to peacekeeping episode for Mormon Stories podcast, just if for nothing else to help questioning and post Mormons rethink how they engage believers in, in relationships and conversations. It sounds like a great discipline of study.

Maven [00:20:04] It is, it is. And again, I still laugh when I think about it as like a Kumbaya kind of a, like hippie dippy, like everyone sit in a circle and hold hands kind of a thing. You know, it was rigorous. And so. Yeah, so for me, that was really great.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] What I think of is the Arab Israeli conflict because like when I'm growing up, that was the big thing is like, are we ever going to achieve peace in the Middle East?

Maven [00:20:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] And that's nothing, there's nothing to do with hippie dippy Kumbaya. That's no fierce, harsh negotiations where the lives and deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people when in the balance.

Maven [00:20:45] No, that's, that's perfect. And that's part of also, I guess, realizing that the, the, even the idea that you're a good and moral person can really be a position of privilege. I'm, I'm sitting in a first world country.

Jenn Kamp [00:20:58] I'm in Hawaii.

Maven [00:20:59] It's a tropical place. It's beautiful. I'm in school, right. I'm not facing these horrific atrocities that the people are facing. So it's easy to look superior and feel superior looking at other conflicts when you're not there and you're not experiencing the real thing and you're not experiencing the hurt and trying to bridge the deep pain that you feel and your country feels in order to do that. And ultimately it's why I didn't continue to pursue it past the certificate was because I realized, I mean, especially at that time, it's a far from being like just again, like the hippie dippy kind of a thing. It's mentally rigorous. And I real, I, I just don't have the capacity for it. It takes an extremely mentally strong person to work in this. And it's not just because the conflicts are difficult. This is something I still have a hard time with, I try to be better at. But to be able to succeed in this kind of work, especially if you're going to be involved in big global conflicts like that or long lasting ones, as you have to be able to sit with people that, you know, have committed atrocities on men, women and children and you still have to believe that they have it in Them to make it right. And that's on both sides.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] And like South Africa, Mandela, Truth and Reconciliation Commission kind of stuff.

Maven [00:22:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] Or again, Arab. Israeli conflict. Like Palestinian terrorists. Terrorists, I say in air quotes, that have bombed people or Israeli settlers who have expanded Israel to the point of displacing or bulldozing other people's homes. How do you. How do you sit in a room with these people?

Jenn Kamp [00:22:43] Right, right.

Maven [00:22:44] Or.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Or, you know, Hitler's, you know, like Nazi. Nazi soldiers. Right. Like, yeah, tough stuff.

Maven [00:22:52] You have to get into a place at where you're not acting, but mentally you can sit with that and you can still see their humanity.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's intense.

Maven [00:23:03] Yeah. And it's just. It's not something I can do right now.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Not for the faint of heart.

Maven [00:23:09] No, it's. It's really, really not. So. Yeah. So it is an intense program, but I highly recommend it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] How cool you got to do that.

Maven [00:23:17] Yeah. Yeah, that was really great. And it actually helped because I did end up actually going to Jerusalem. So that is a conflict that is talked about just in the class, but then also getting to go there and. And see a bit more of it. And so the Jerusalem center was kind of almost an afterthought because I had wanted to do it before, but then due to the second intifada, they actually closed it down when I was in high school. So I thought, well, that's. That's done. But yeah, at this point, after my mission, I am a BYU student. Not the provo that I had initially thought, but it's Hawaiian accounts. Right. So I applied to go to the program. There's this whole form application, and the only problem I had with it, there was just one question to ask, like, how would you. How is this going to improve your testimony? And I didn't like that. I didn't like the idea that you. Anybody needs to actually physically go where Jesus was, to have an increased or bigger or better testimony of him. I felt like I knew him from my mission and from serving the Lord and being in the scriptures. And that's where he really is, is in the scriptures. You don't have to physically go somewhere. That's just. It just really didn't jive with my view of our own theology. So I answered it honestly and I said, I don't think it will. I'm interested in learning about the history, but that's it. And I got rejected. So I. I apply again for the next semester. And I wonder if that question is why. That's the Only thing I can think of that there was maybe an issue, but I feel strongly about it. So I literally don't change anything. I change the COVID letter and I send the exact same packet in and I get accepted for the the summer of 2012. So. So I got in and it's. So it's not a scripture program, of course. We're going to study Old Testament and New Testament, but it's an ancient Near Eastern studies program. But it is open to all majors. So there are only three actual ancient Near Eastern studies majors there. And then there was me, the cultural anthropology major. Everyone else was education or business or nursing or all kinds of things all over the place. There's a heavy emphasis on field trips. So every single week we were on field trips. So the saying is like, from Dan to Beersheba, that's the northernmost point to the southernmost point. Right. I sometimes wonder if I have trekked around more of Israel than people who live there like and were born there. Possibly. We just went around to so many places. But yeah, in the Old Testament and these were technically institute classes, but way better than any institute class I've ever had anywhere else because it was a lot more academic. So Old Testament, we're learning the documentary hypothesis, right? And just how you can tell how the end. And for me it's fine because this is right along with what we believe that there are parts added to and taken away from the Bible. And so the documentary hypothesis is like precisely how you can see different editions based on, you know, what was important to people at the time. You can see this fingerprint. So. And then the New Testament, mostly Gospels, I. We learned so much just like the differences between them that our final involved having just verses without any context. None of the little like footnote things. It was just typed out. And we would have to say which book it was from. And you know, just from familiarity with the verses and the types of subjects. And they did really well with that. I could not do that now if I were to be given the same thing. But yeah, even stuff that would be in all three gospels or, you know, of the Synoptic Gospels, I would know exactly which one it was from, even though it's in three places. So. And I just, I really loved that. But I did start to this. These classes were some of the first that some of the other students who were not from like a major like mine to have some issues with what we were learning. So we're getting that familiar, like, wait, what does this mean? Kind of a question like, this is New for them.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] I'm kind of struggling with it myself because I'm thinking, like, David Wright was kicked out of, you know, like, fired from BYU for teaching the documentary hypothesis. Like, David Bacavoy was denied employment at BYU because he was too much of a fan of biblical criticism and historical criticism. So I'm trying to square that with you being taught it. I know, at the Jerusalem center, of all places.

Maven [00:27:29] Right? So I saw your interview with David Bacavoy, and I'm pretty sure that was the one where when he brings it up that. That he was learning that you said, oh, no. And I remember watching that and just being like, but wait, I learned that at byu. So, I mean, at this point, I think. I don't think it was brand new. I don't think any of my teachers were remotely in trouble. David Bakavoy did write a book about the documentary hypothesis that is accepted by Mormon scholars, I believe. It wasn't weird to be learning that at all. Even when it did, there were a couple of my classmates I could tell were having a problem with it. When we were learning this part of it, I just. Speaking up again. I'm just feeling so superior because this is normal to me, this deal and wrangling with information that seems contradictory, but if you really, really think about it and twist around, there's some way to make it work. And this for me was easy because I was like, look, this is literally what we're told, that there are precious things taken from the Bible and added in. This goes right along with our theology. This is why the restoration is important. This is why the Book of Mormon is important. This increases my testimony. Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Except for the fact that it calls into question whether Adam and Eve existed or there was a story. Right.

Maven [00:28:47] We don't talk about that stuff or,

John Dehlin [00:28:49] you know, whether Moses existed.

Jenn Kamp [00:28:51] Right, right. Yeah.

Maven [00:28:53] No, but. And again, it's an ancient Near Eastern studies program. So we're going. We're starting. We're going from early, like civilization. We're not really kind of talking about the 6,000 year. We're just gonna not talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Right.

Maven [00:29:07] But we are gonna go through the Stone Age through Bronze Age. You know, we're going through all of these things and the other cultures around. Not just Biblical Canaanite culture. Right. But Mesopotamia, the Epic of Gilgamesh. Like, we're learning all of these things. But you know what? It's. It's fine. It. It's fine because, you know, there was a global flood, so of course there would be flood stories from Elsewhere. And just the fact that maybe this one predates it, that's not an issue. It's fine. We're just not going to think about it. Just. It's fine. It's fine.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] We don't talk about Bruno.

Maven [00:29:36] Right, Exactly. So, yeah, so I wasn't really having a problem. But it wasn't just that. But also just. I mean, that's one of the criticisms about the Book of Mormon is there's no archaeology, there's absolutely nothing. But with the Bible there is like, we at least have Jerusalem. We at least have these things. We do have Nebuchadnezzar. We have historical figures that we know existed. Right. So one of the things I learned when I'm over there is that things for the Bible, evidence for the Bible is not as strong and as solid as I thought it was. There's a lot of things missing. And the same with just the story of Jesus in general. I just thought there was a lot more like rock solid evidence. And I remember, like, even being on my mission, like telling people, like, the question is like, you know, either Jes. What was easy, the son of God, or he was crazy, or he was a liar, you know, and those are the only three options. And. And we know he was real. We know he existed. So you just have to figure out which one of these things. And I'm realizing, you know, there it's. It's not unreasonable to question if he even existed in the first place, as we know him to be. So this doesn't hurt my testimony at all because again, I. I'm part of God's true church. We have modern revelation, we have modern prophets. So this fills in all the gaps. But I understand why maybe a regular Christian, a mainstream Christian, could learn this stuff about the Bible. I could totally understand how they would lose faith in Christianity, in Jesus and that kind of stuff. And I feel bad for them that they couldn't find our gospel first, you know, before losing their Christianity, because we could have saved it, probably, had they known about us. But certainly no Mormon should ever lose their testimony over biblical history or over problems with general Christianity. Sorry, that. That was just something I couldn't understand. It's like, like, do you even understand our doctrine? Like, do you, like, do you understand. Do you know anything? Like, how. How can a Mormon possibly ever lose a testimony over this stuff when we have all this stuff to fix it? So. So that's how I came out of that program, I think. And it was also just really. A lot of things really surfaced. There's Just so many things there which are just about money and tourism. You know, I think there were like, three different churches that claimed to have, like, the Last Supper room, you know, and so people go to, you know, maybe go. And one of them, it was like, in their basement, which seems funny at first, but considering the fact that the Jerusalem that Jesus Christ walked on, like, in some places there's a couple feet underground where Jerusalem today is, and in some places, maybe several dozen feet underground just because it's been raided and raised and rebuilt upon so many times. The one, the church that has the Last Supper, you know, upper room, because it says it's an upper room in the scriptures, but that has it in their basement is actually not so crazy. That actually makes it a little bit more likely than these modern structures who have it in an actual upper room, if that makes sense. Anyway, you just start to question, like, did anything happen anywhere that anyone says that any church claims?

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Because you think, you think about what I think about with BYU and the Mormon Church and the. And Jerusalem in the Middle east, it's like, let's go to the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus. It's kind of like the. The first vision Sacred grove. Let's go to where Jesus goes to spiritual tourism. That's a great way to. Yeah. See where. Let's go to the Garden of Gethsemane. Let's go to the site of the crucifixion and say a prayer. Where we're contemplating Jesus getting nailed to the cross and that sort of thing.

Maven [00:33:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] And. And you're just saying that as you were there, you're realizing that you can't. A lot of this stuff is made

Maven [00:33:28] up that any of these things are or that you're in the right place. I'm not thinking that the scriptures or the stories are made up, but the. Am I. I mean, is this where the crucifixion happened? I don't know. But I still see value in, like, being here, thinking about the crucifixion. This is an environment that is putting you maybe in the right mind frame to consider the gravity of it, be grateful for it, et cetera. But is it literally really the place, like the place? Probably not.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] Did folks like Daniel Peterson, Maxwell Institute, people, farms, people come through that you remember?

Maven [00:34:01] No. I mean, there was an archaeologist that was working nearby who's a BYU alumni. And so I actually, like, there was a secret which ended up not being so secret, a day where the three engineer Eastern studies majors and myself actually got to go to the Dig. So it was just us. Four students got to participate in that. So that was fun. But that was the only. And Elder Holland actually did stop by.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] I was gonna ask.

Maven [00:34:26] With his family. Yeah. And so the administration of the program, the top administration, it's all Jewish. It's not members of the church. And the security and the. I think most of the cooks, a lot of the staff were Palestinian. But when Elder Holland came by, it was the director. Like, we were all sat together and we were told, like, basically, leave him alone. You know? And I don't. I'm wondering now if this is true. Yeah, like, don't talk to him. Just. Just leave him alone. He's here on vacation with his family. And he had. For people who don't know, he had a lot to do with getting the Jerusalem center up and running. So that's something you can research if you want. So the story is, like, he has always been here for business. He's always been here for the church. This is the first time. And this is the part, like, I'm not sure if this was true or not, but it's the first time that he's here just with his family, just to, like, see the sights, like we are. So just leave him alone, you know? And so we do maybe a little too well. So we're all sitting in the cafeteria. We're eating lunch. Elder Holland is in this thick table over there in the corner, like, that's for him. But he gets up at one point and he walks over to where we're all eating, and he says. He leans on a chair, and he's like, I just want you guys to know that myself and my family have been checked, and none of us have leprosy, so you don't have to keep your distance. So there's kind of a laugh, you know, line. And then a few students did end up going and attempting to talk to him. And so, yeah, anyway, that was just a real brief aside there on that. So I finished that, and I come back to BYU Hawaii just for my last year, getting ready to graduate, and I'm wrapping up classes. But again, I still have this undiagnosed adhd. And things are getting really, really difficult for me, and I don't know why. And at the time, I just feel like. I really felt like I'm a failure. And maybe growing up, I kept getting told that I was smart, but now I'm with other smart people, and I'm like, I'm not so smart, you know, I really start to feel like it's kind of a farce that I'm here. I don't know how I ended up here, you know.

John Dehlin [00:36:27] Imposter syndrome.

Maven [00:36:28] Yeah, it's imposter syndrome, but, like, almost worse than that, because, like, with imposter, you at least feel like you're putting up a fake front. And I couldn't even portray a fake front. Like, I was a mess. I couldn't even pretend to be holding it together. And I think as the closer I got to graduation, the more I guess freaked out I was that I wouldn't graduate, the more I just froze. And so I was missing a lot of classes. But, I mean, I would be in bed and just the minutes would go by and I would be watching the clock and thinking, like, I need to get out of bed. I need to go to class. I can still make it. If I go right now, I can still make it to class, you know, or I'll be a minute late, but that's fine. That's not too bad. Five minutes late. That's. That's. You know, and it would just get to the point where it's. It's too late. It's too late now. And then I would feel some. Just little bit of sense of relief, like once we got. I got to that point, but I would just get more and more behind, but the anxiety would just cross. I just literally, I couldn't move. I spent a lot of time kind of like I was before, just like, in bed, in my room, in the dark, in Hawaii, where it's beautiful, you know? So I did start seeing a counselor a little bit. And a lot of times it gets. Especially in older women, it gets misdiagnosed as anxiety and depression, but it's not those. Those were a result of unmanaged ADHD and unmanaged expectations. So anyway, I do. I barely slide through with enough of a GPA to get my degree, which I am really glad about, because I've had lots of student loans. So at least I have the piece of paper that makes the student loans worth it, right? But at this point, my confidence is completely destroyed, 100% shredded. I feel like I'm glad I have the degree. I'm glad I have this piece of paper, but I feel like I got it on a technicality. I showed up enough, I turned in enough papers, you know, and that the math just happened to add up that I get a degree, but I really didn't feel like I earned it.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] So, yeah, it almost sounds like scrupulosity and OCD rumination anxiety kind of stuff.

Maven [00:38:27] Yeah, it was a really rough time. And then, yeah, now I'm graduated and I'm still not married.

Jenn Kamp [00:38:32] Right.

Maven [00:38:32] So now I'm out in the world. And I never found like an anthropology class that was like this is the niche that I would want to go for or this is the thing I want to do. So this started a lot of like, you know, financial struggles. And I had one decent job which was actually with a company called Schlumberger, which is part of the oil field company.

Jenn Kamp [00:38:51] Right? Yeah.

Maven [00:38:52] So I'm living. I moved to Casper, Wyoming. Uh huh.

Jenn Kamp [00:38:54] Yep.

Maven [00:38:55] And it's. And I mean it was a. I didn't really like the job very well, but it paid well and so things were going okay. But of course I get this job right before the prices just fall out of the. Just fall into the toilet. I was only there about a year when oil prices dropped drastically. And I think this was in 2014, I want to say maybe 13, 14. And so in the first six months of that year, Schlumberger laid off 20,000 workers in the United States. And I was one of them. And I wasn't prepared, which is funny because I should have been. It was all over the place. But I had made it through one round of layoffs. They went for middle management for like higher money. So even though I was like a low paid person, I guess I just thought like I was safe after that and I was not. So I have nothing for me in Wyoming except for this job. So I moved back to Utah. But that was really, really tough. And I was, I just got behind financially so much. I'm putting stuff on credit cards. I'm underemployed and underpaid. It's just getting worse and worse and worse and so, and the jobs I'm getting like again, I just, I just don't have the confidence to feel like I can get any kind of a job that pays decently. So I'm a hotel desk clerk, I'm customer service. It's always like ten dollar an hour jobs and I just can't live off of so. And I remember one of them in particular was a customer service job. It was a night shift job because there's a little bit more money in the differential for the night shift. And I have a medical emergency, like there's something wrong as I'm going throughout the night. I'm having a significant pain growing on my right side. And at first I'm just trying to push through it because I don't have insurance yet. It was A new job. So I hadn't gotten to that point where I got like, employer paid insurance. And so I know something's wrong. And as the night goes on, like, really, really wrong. Something's very, very, very wrong. But if I can at least push through to like 8am I can go to an urgent care because those are cheaper than the er. I don't want to go to the ER in the middle of the night. But eventually I have to. I only get about halfway through the shift. It's. I'm almost. I can't stand up straight anymore. It's hurting so much. And so I go to my supervisor and I say, like, I'm gonna have to leave. I'm gonna drive myself to the er. And she told me, like there was a point system for attendance and it's five points if you leave in the middle of a shift without advance notice. Because you should know, I guess, about emergencies in advance. Anyway, I'm fine with it at this point, but I'm doubled over and I'm speeding myself to the hospital. I'm driving with my left leg because it just hurts so much. I can't use my right leg to drive. I get myself to a hospital, they get me on morphine. It's a kidney infection for sure. They know that I'm hooked up to an iv, I'm given antibiotics, and the doctor wanted me to go in for a scan to see if. Because I'd had kidney stones before, if maybe I have a kidney stone that's blocking the kidney and that's making the infection worse. And it could potentially be life threatening if this infection can't clear out of the kidney because it's blocked. But again, I don't have insurance and I know that's going to be expensive. And so I tried asking the how much is that going to be? And his best ballpark was like 2,500. And that was more than I was making in a month. So I refused. And so. And he was really nice. He was like, I understand that is against my medical advice, but I can. We can. If it's, if it's not a kidney stone, then you should be fine with these antibiotics. You'll get better when you go home. But promise me, if it gets worse, okay? Because it should not get worse at all. If this is all. If this is the only problem. But if it starts to get worse, you got to promise me you'll come back because it'll be life threatening and you need to be seen. And so I said, okay, like, if it Gets worse. I promise I'll come back. But I just didn't want to, like, have that test done because I didn't want to, like, have to pay bills for that. So. Yeah, so it was definitely, like, a really rough time. And there was actually a point where I was, like, I was technically home. I'm living in a van, right. But I'm playing it off as, like, I'm being the quirky millennial, frugal. You know, this is what we do these days. You know, like, it's. It's a choice. It's fun, you know, and, like, it was kind of a choice, but, like, kind of not. So. Yeah, definitely a rough time. And there was a point where it's also, like, I start getting help from the bishop's storehouse, and I had a really great bishop, but even then, it was still, like, a really shaming experience. And I don't know if people have talked about it on the show or not before, but, like, you. You have to sit with the bishop, and he gives you a list, and you have to decide ahead of time, like, what all the things are. You can't decide while you're there, and you have to do it in front of him. And I can only imagine it felt like, wait for.

Financial Hardship, Tithing, and Seeking Church Aid

John Dehlin [00:43:46] Just. I want to make sure I understand. So, like, you're in a. You're in a Mormon congregation award. You're feeling super poor. You're probably close to starving, if not just super hungry, can't make ends meet. So you go to your bishop and say, I need financial help. And Mormons fast once a month. Give their fast. So they give the money that they would have spent on food to the bishop, and then the bishop saves the fast offerings, and he's supposed to use them for other people in need in the ward.

Maven [00:44:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] So you go to the bishop and you say, hey, I have financial need.

Maven [00:44:24] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] Is that the prayer? Okay.

Maven [00:44:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] And so the bishop is like, yeah, And.

Maven [00:44:30] And I think really bad bishops that have been very, like, adding a lot of shame to the process. Mine did not. But the way the structured is to be kind of shameful anyway. You are made to feel like you are, you know, like, not earning this stuff, you know, and. And, you know, you are a drain kind of. You're not being productive, you're not contributing. You are taking. And it's fine to take now while you're in need, but eventually, you know, we got to get you up off of that. And. And, you know, the whole off the

John Dehlin [00:45:04] dole gets you off the Dole off the dole.

Maven [00:45:05] Exactly. Yeah. There's this idea that if they. If they. We don't make you do or, like, volunteer to do stuff for the church or things like that. That. Yeah. That you'll just take advantage of it and you'll just keep getting food as long as you want. But of course, like. And this is how I was raised, and I definitely don't want to feel that way, so. Yeah, so. So there's a list of food. You. You have to just go through it with the bishop there in front of you, I think, to make sure you're not taking too much for what your needs are supposedly supposed to be. So really, there's so much control over it. So then you take this paper with the bishop, you know, having signed it, with these exact amounts of whatever food you. You pick ahead of time. And then when you actually go to the storehouse, they have these sweet missionaries there, and they're smiling and everything, but they're still. They walk with you the whole time, and they take stuff off the shelf for you and put it in the basket.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] So it's like peanut butter or, like corn.

Maven [00:46:00] Right. And a lot of just very basic things. But again, it's. There's somebody, like, right there watching you, and it feels shameful because it feels like you can't be trusted is how it kind of comes across.

John Dehlin [00:46:11] You don't steal.

Maven [00:46:12] Yeah. So you don't take more than your share. Right. And so. And I remember, you know, and then I would, like, come back in two weeks. You'd have to do the whole thing all over again, you know? And I remember, I mean, just even things like, again, because, like, I don't want to feel like a taker, you know, I want to make sure that I'm not taking more than I deserve. I remember, like, going through and being, you know, I don't know, should I get two cans of chili? I don't know, last week or, you know, last time I got, like, a bag of potatoes, and I still have some potatoes left, so maybe one can of chili instead of two, because I still have the potatoes. Right. And heaven help you, like, if I actually build up any kind of a pantry, because you definitely don't want to do that. But I mean, even something like cake mix, I'd be like, you know, do I. Do I need cake mix? No. I'm a single person. What am I going to do, like, with a whole cake? You know? And I would also think, sorry, so

Jenn Kamp [00:47:02] again,

Jenn Kamp [00:47:04] this is kind of breaking my heart.

Jenn Kamp [00:47:08] I mean, I would think about, like. Like, families who were more in need than I was. You know, I. I felt really bad that I was where I was at, because, I mean, I have a college education, right? So why am I here? Why is this? You know, so it's my fault, obviously. You know, I've done something wrong and I'm here, you know, when there's, like, people really, really in need, you know,

Maven [00:47:38] like families with children. And, you know, I'm thinking with cake, I'm thinking about birthdays. Like, they mean so much more to

Jenn Kamp [00:47:45] kids, you know, so, like, if I. If I take a cake mix, then maybe I'm taking this from, like, a family that really needs it, you know? So I would. But, you know, it's just kind of sad now to think, like, you know, just something like cake, like, I don't deserve it, you know, that's how I felt, though. And like I said, my bishop was really great.

Maven [00:48:10] I've heard of some bishops that have

Jenn Kamp [00:48:12] been really awful and would even, like, tell people, like, how does it feel to get food that you didn't earn? You know, and mine did not do that at all. But just the process is just. It's just hard. And you, you know, you feel like you're a taker and they're supposed to ask you to, like, do extra things, to, like, volunteer at the church or whatever.

Maven [00:48:33] But even though, like, I am working,

Jenn Kamp [00:48:36] just making a lot, I'm tired all the time when I'm not in work. And I think just there's this depression and just this hopelessness, you know, it just drains your energy, your mental energy and your physical energy. And so when the bishop brought up. Up, like, doing something, you know, I just remember feeling so overwhelmed, like, my anxiety just, like, really? Because I was just like, if I have time to help with the church, I feel like I should probably be working, you know, extra shifts or something

Maven [00:49:06] where I'm actually earning money in the

John Dehlin [00:49:08] chapel or clean the restrooms. Like, you gotta earn it. Mow the lawn, do something.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:13] It felt really overwhelming.

Maven [00:49:15] And I just feel. I didn't feel like I had, like,

Jenn Kamp [00:49:17] the capability or the resource for that, you know?

Maven [00:49:20] And that also felt really shameful. But at one point, I.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:24] Can I say something? Yeah, really quick. It just is kind of breaking my heart listening to you and then also thinking of, like, all the tithing you've. You've paid. The mission. You served for the church 10 years.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] Volun. You paid to be the teacher's salesperson for two years.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:48] Yeah, like, all. All of the volunteer work. That every member is already asked to do. As far as teaching classes. We all clean the church. We all rake up the leaves. We all, you know, do all this voluntarily.

Maven [00:50:06] All of it.

Jenn Kamp [00:50:07] And it just seems like when someone's,

John Dehlin [00:50:11] like, a gazillion dollars.

Jenn Kamp [00:50:12] Well, yeah, exactly. They have, like, didn't know that. Hundreds of billions of dollars. The TR. Church.

Maven [00:50:17] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:50:18] And when someone's in need and they go to the bishop, and even though your bishop was so kind, it just seems like when you get to the warehouse where the food is, that we've all donated the money to pay for it to be there, that. That should be a place of, like, empathy and love and allowing them to, you know, choose the food that they think their family needs and not to be followed around. Not to be like, let me pick that off. Off the shelf for you and put it in your basket. You know, even if they had a list and, you know, there's a checkout system or something, that just seems so. So shameful to me.

Maven [00:51:06] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:51:06] To, like, walk around and, like, make someone feel like they can't. They don't even have the human decency to choose what their family needs. Like, that's. That kind of put it over the top for me.

Maven [00:51:21] I'm glad you brought that up, because that was something I remember, like, being on a mission and kind of defending sometimes, like the tithing and the fast offering system. I would say, like, I put this money in, and if I ever need help, the church will help me. I just. I just thought that way. And so when I did need help and I. And I was asked, like, have you asked everybody else first? That was something that. That was troubling to me deeply at the time, but I need help, you know, And I just. I don't think about it too much, but I do remember that being kind of a punch to the gut was the, you know, just this realization that you pay the church first always, but when you're asking for help, they want you to be coming to them the last. So what I ended up doing, I. I found a different food pantry. And part of it was like, this is actually. I know this seems like a really privileged thing, but this is the point where I. I went vegan, which is something that you mentioned or brought up previously. And. And it wasn't just that because, like, once I had cut out, I realized I had a mild dairy allergy that I just was kind of used to, I guess. So when I cut that out, there were a lot of things about my health that improved, but that was difficult at the pantry as well, because a lot of things like their, you know, waffle mix and, you know, the deseret stuff, a lot of it did have, like, milk in it. So there's a lot of things that I'm starting to realize I can't really pick up. So I. I go to a food pantry and. And like, you can't do both. Yes. You got to do one or the other, you know, and. Which is fine. That you don't want to be double dipping. Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] Can't do the Mormon church and a full.

Jenn Kamp [00:52:51] Right.

Maven [00:52:52] And the food pantry. Yeah. Like, they both kind of. Why would have said the same thing?

Jenn Kamp [00:52:56] Why can't you. They told you you couldn't.

Maven [00:52:59] I mean, they said ideally, you don't. I don't know if it's like, there's more to it than that, but that was something that I think my bishop would have agreed with. But.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] But I guess the spirit of it is you can't get a week's worth of growth groceries from two different sources and then maybe sell one.

Maven [00:53:18] Right, right, right again.

Jenn Kamp [00:53:20] Again, that's telling people they can't think for themselves. Like, it, like Maven, like, she is going to the LDS distribution center. There's things that they don't have.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Right.

Jenn Kamp [00:53:32] That she can't eat that she needs.

Maven [00:53:35] Right.

Jenn Kamp [00:53:35] And she. In her mind, because she's been told she can't. She's just going without. When she just went over to, you know, the, you know, the, I don't know, Baptist church that's giving out food around the country.

Maven [00:53:50] I want to say what it is. It's called Tabitha's Way. And so I don't know if there's anyone, like, who are already donating to their favorite podcast. Tabitha's Way is it. They have a location in American Fork and Spanish Fork.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Well, this is all happening in Utah.

Maven [00:54:03] This is in Utah. Yeah. So I'm. So, yeah, once I lost my oil field job, I'm back in Utah. And this is where, like, all of this is happening. So I go to Tabitha's Way in American Fork, and. And. And they do an intake. That's a normal thing to do. And they have someone kind of walk with me through the shelves. But this is one where, like, a lot of donations are coming actually, like, from surplus, from local stores, but also from food drives of people donating food. So there's a lot more variety. I'm able to actually get, like, almond milk or soy milk instead of, you know, regular milk. And so it's. It's A lot better for me.

John Dehlin [00:54:35] Plus, we're led to believe the church's welfare program is, like, the best in.

Maven [00:54:39] And I would have to say, from my experience, I. I would have to disagree. And it was. It was as far as, like, shaming. It was just night and day difference.

Jenn Kamp [00:54:48] I'm gonna.

Maven [00:54:49] Here I go again.

Jenn Kamp [00:54:50] Because,

Maven [00:54:52] you know, when I'm doing the intake and, you know, I'm going over things, I think I'm saying kind of things that. That show, you know, how I'm feeling. And I think it was the director. I think that, like, the lady that I was working with, she. She just kept reassuring me, like, you know, it's fine you're here.

Jenn Kamp [00:55:09] It's. It's okay.

Maven [00:55:10] You know, things happen.

Jenn Kamp [00:55:12] It's. You're not a bad person for needing help.

Maven [00:55:14] We're happy to help. You know, this is. You know, this is why we're here. Like, just, things happen. And I remember asking, like, do you. Do you need people to volunteer, like, to stock shelves? You know, things like that? And she was very adamant.

Jenn Kamp [00:55:27] She was like, no, you can if you want to, but you do not need to do anything to deserve this. You deserve food because you're a human being, and we're happy to give that to you, and you don't owe us anything in return. And that was just really comforting to hear, you know, I didn't feel like a bad person for needing the help, you know, and so, yeah, it was just really great. I loved going there. I always felt really happy. I never knew what was going to be there. Sometimes there's some, like, really nice treats that I would not have bought for myself because they were, like, extra or

Maven [00:56:10] expensive, you know, and they only had someone walk with you just once, just to kind of show you the tag system and just to be like, if you're, you know, a family of one, which I am, like, these are the amounts of items that you can get from this category and this category. And that was. And it was a lot. So I actually was able to absolutely stay within their parameters, but actually start building up a pantry, you know, and. And, you know, as things got better, I just naturally stopped going. There was never a point where, like, we sit down and they tell me, you know, and that was another, I guess, kind of feeling or, like, teaching. I remember being raised with, like, if you let people have stuff for free, like, they'll just keep taking and taking until you, like, make them, you know, be responsible till you make them, you know, get up off their feet and stop being lazy or Whatever. So you can't just keep giving people things forever, you know? But like, in my own experience, it's just, just. It just was so natural. I just didn't need to go anymore and I stopped going. And I think most people are like that, you know, there'll be some, sure.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:12] But to, I guess, shame or make

Maven [00:57:14] the whole system in a way that treats everyone like they're that kind of person. It was really hard. Anyway, so. So I. I really loved that place. And I did actually volunteer there. And if anyone wants to donate to a food pantry, you know, so I would recommend that one. Tabitha's Way, for sure. Anyway, as we're going along, like, again,

Jenn Kamp [00:57:38] I don't want to be struggling forever.

Maven [00:57:40] I want to make better money. But I just don't know what to do because again, I still feel incompetent. I feel like I can't have any kind of a job where I'm really, really important because I'm just gonna drop the ball. And so it's just customer service after just low paying, like, phone work. So I start wondering, like, should I have a career? And I know there's women in the church that do. Like, I know about Sherry Dew. I know there's women who are lawyers. I know there's women who are nurses. But those seem like really important things. And I just kind of figured that they worked it out with God or that was maybe an extra calling that they had, it was okay for them to work because there was like this passion, this direction, you know, I just assumed God was part of their path in this. And so I'm still wondering, like, is it okay for me to have a career? Or am I supposed to just be faithful and push through it, like, and wait for this husband that's supposed to come? And part of me is feeling like if I am supposed to have a career, I think I would know. I would feel kind of a calling or the direction to go. So maybe, maybe that is what, you know, maybe this is just a trial period and I'm just supposed to just get through it as much as possible. Or is it like a study it out in your mind kind of a thing where I need to figure it out for myself. So I would study and I try. I research dozens and dozens of careers and could just never settle on anything or feel good about anything. And so I just didn't know if. Yeah, that was a constant struggle. Was like, I mean, is it okay to get a career if I did what? Because I don't even know what I would do. And I'm just waiting and hoping and praying and working so hard for God to, like, reach out to me and guide me. Like, I felt like he had when I was a teenager and I had so many plans for the future and it just didn't happen. But what eventually started making a difference, I get out of the van and I do get into an apartment with roommates. I finally stopped paying tithing because throughout this whole thing, I am paying tithing. I am maxed out on credit cards, some with ruinous rates, like 25% interest, and I am paying my tithing and I'm not able. The interest is growing more than I can pay down on these cards. They're overly maxed out because even though I'm not spending on them anymore, the interest is just growing. But I really felt like I really can't. I can't afford not to, like, think how much worse it'll be if I stop paying tithing. But I eventually get to the place where I just can't do it anymore. I need that money. And so I stopped paying tithing. And then I. I got into a medical study by lying about my medical history because it would pay $10,000, like over six months. And that was a bit scary because, I mean, because they specifically said in the screening that, like, do you have X condition? If you do, we don't want you in this study. And I do have that condition. And not only do I have that condition, but it's not managed well because my medicines are expensive, that I can't afford them. So I have not been managing it. So it's pretty severe. But I just lie. I'm desperate. I just really feel like I need this $10,000 to just really help me get out of where I'm at. So, yeah. So I say, nope. And they're like, okay, not even as a kid. And I was like, nope. And they're like, even if it wasn't a big deal, I'd be like, no, nope, don't have it. And so I definitely don't want to recommend that, because you really can. Especially if they're saying there's a specific thing. I did all the research that I could because it was for a generic version of a drug that was already out. So I did have some research I could try to do on my own at home. And the best I could come up with is that just being overly cautious maybe. But when I went in to actually do it, I had written on a piece of paper just in case, like, the worst would happen. Like a medical emergency or something. I wrote on a piece of paper like, I, I lied about this condition. I do have it. And that way if something were to start to really go wrong, then I at least had it written out and I could like hand it to someone and they could get me the appropriate medical treatment. It turned out okay. I did not have any like really adverse reactions besides what they were expecting. And that was a huge help. I felt like I was finally kind of getting my nose above the water as far as the debts go. And then I took a chance on an interview, like for a security job, which bumped me from earning about $10 an hour to 15. So it was a huge pay increase. But I was really worried because I kind of thought like, security guards are like, want to be cops. You know, they're authoritative, you know, they like telling people what to do. And that's not how I am. And I already hate. And I'm miserable in my current jobs. I don't want to be miserable in another, even if it pays more. But that was not what they wanted at all. So they reassured me it is customers. They just want you to be friendly with people. Do you want people to trust you if they're having a medical incident for you to take care of that? And yeah, and they almost always. Security almost always has overtime. So I start banking a lot of overtime. I worked every day for a year straight. I paid off my credit cards, especially the ruinous ones. And I'm finally getting to a place like where I can breathe. So that's what helped that. And then in the meantime, like I am as much as possible, I'm still going to the YSA wards. It's difficult on some of the night shift jobs I have, but I'm still going to activities and things like that and YSA wards. And so that's young single adult wards. And then if you're not married by 30 or 31, then you get to be in the single adult wards. And a lot of those were really toxic or just inauthentic. Some of them can be really tough places to be. And I could recognize that it was difficult even for me to be my authentic self. And I knew other people couldn't either. I just didn't know what to do about it or what was necessarily like wrong with it. But there was like this constant attention on my singlehood. And I was never. Maybe this is because of the asexuality. I was never upset or sad that I was single, but I did feel like an incomplete person in the church for it. And you are treated like a kid a lot too even. I mean I wasn't a lawyer, but my roommate was. And a lot of times we would come away from church or from less since really feeling kind of patronized. It would be sometimes a lot of these wards have an older, like a senior couple that are mentors. And then also sometimes visiting leadership would come by, you know, just like normal. And those were the ones who were usually the most condescending about our singleness. And I mean like. And I don't know if there's like a guy equivalent for this, but I know as girls, like we would get advice on weight, on look, even flirting, like an actual class with some, a woman there teaching us ways to flirt with guys and make them feel special. Like I just treated like we didn't know how to adult or like interact with the opposite sex at all.

Mormon Dating, Mixed-Orientation Relationships, and Asexuality

John Dehlin [01:04:21] Sometimes just to jump in here, like I'm thinking about my point of view, it's like, okay, you grow up Mormon and then everyone's supposed to go to byu. And then you go to BYU and you basically have four years to find your mate. And so it's this huge, it's, it's a good education and it's this massive meat market. And I just remember I'm like a senior byu, grew up in Texas. I'm like, well, let's see, I'm dating four or five women, you know, just, I gotta pick one because I, I'm not gonna go to grad school without having gotten married. There's never going to be as big of a pool of Mormon women than I've got right now. So I'm like, I think Margi, I'll do Margi. And so we get married and like that's what you do. But if you don't do that, if you don't get married to one of the BYU's, then there's this like almost like a drop off where you're like, I don't want to call it a secondary market, but within Mormon culture it's difficult.

Maven [01:05:15] Yeah, yeah. And it, there is, it is assumed that something is wrong with you because why doesn't nobody want you before?

John Dehlin [01:05:24] Why didn't you, why did you get married? By you.

Maven [01:05:26] Right? Yeah, but it wasn't that. I mean it's not that I didn't have any interest, I just didn't have any interest that I reciprocated or, or vice versa. Maybe I was interested, didn't come back. Yeah. So, yeah, but you're saying then they're

John Dehlin [01:05:41] like giving the women lessons on how to wear makeup and how to look pretty. And it's like, what a gross, awkward

Maven [01:05:49] kind of soul it did. And it always felt really gross because it was always really superficial. It was always extremely superficial. And so, I mean, Jordan and McKay have a YouTube channel they. You had them on. They actually went over some assignments from a BYU professor recently, one of their episodes. And one thing they kept wondering, like, there's this elbow touch. Why is this elbow touch coming up? And I was like, I know what the elbow touch is. Because this was what was taught to me, like, in this how to flirt with men class. Because it's supposed to be seen as, you know, I mean, besides like being told, like, laugh at a guy's jokes or whatever, that you could just kind of reach out and just like a light touch on the elbow. It was seen as like non sexual, non threatening, but enough to like, maybe give the guy a little zing, you know, maybe make him notice you, you give you some interest, right? And so, yeah, but they were always really superficial. And so I remember feeling pretty deeply disturbed about them because I would wonder, like, is this. Does this really make the difference? You know, like, is. Is makeup going to make the difference between if a guy wants to marry me and like, build a life together or not? It just felt like there's this whole song and dance you have to do and the right flirting and the elbow touch or. Or if you could get a, you know, know a bicep touch in, you know, like again, in a nonchalant way. If you could have that, your hand there, just give it just the slightest little squeeze, just a very, very. He'll notice, you know, he'll be like, oh, Jesus, feeling my bicep, you know, and see, like, not. And not only was it really patronizing to us women, but it was very patronizing towards men too. It's like another one of those things where the church wants to have its cake and eat it too. Like, if it's a law of chastity lesson, it's bad, it's bad. You chewed gum and stuff. But if we're having an atonement lesson, then, like, though your sins be as scarlet, they can be as white as snow. That's kind of how men are treated in the chur. And I don't know if the reverse is true for women, but men are either like great spiritual, righteous priesthood holders that you've got to have in your home, or they're like puppies that you have to train. They're so simple, you know that when they do something, you see them take out the garbage, you want to compliment them and say how strong they look when they take out the garbage. And then that'll teach that they'll always want to take out the garbage for you. Like, they're just idiots, you know, but it would kind of be. Be this constant dichotomy back and forth, and there's always just be like, something wrong with you. I mean, and this is something. At this point, I know that I really like short hair, but growing up, it had always been really, really long. But just short hair is not very feminine. Guys like long hair. They want to be able to run their fingers through it, you know, And I would always just feel like I don't want to grow out my hair long. Like, for a guy to run his fingers through to marry me so that I could just either, like, cut it short, like I want it, and then he feels. Feels like he's got a bait and switch here where, you know, he had this. This girl doing all of these things and all the makeup and the hair and, you know, all this stuff just to actually be herself and then be like, this is who I married, you know, Or. Yeah. Or just like, keep up the appearance and keep doing the song and dance after marriage so you don't lose the guy. That was kind of the feeling that I got, and it was just really, really uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [01:08:44] It reminds me of that Elder Ballard clip where he's like, ladies, put on a little lipstick.

Maven [01:08:48] It's not that difficult. Difficult, right. But at the end of the day, it's so like, is that the difference? Is lipstick gonna make the difference between if a guy wants me or not

John Dehlin [01:08:59] lipstick and an arm squeeze?

Maven [01:09:00] And an arm squeeze.

Jenn Kamp [01:09:01] Yeah.

Maven [01:09:02] An elbow touch or a bicep squeeze. It was just. It was stupid, you know?

John Dehlin [01:09:07] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:09:08] And.

Maven [01:09:08] And that was actually like the better stuff because that's the.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] I'm thinking of the. The welfare stuff, too. It's like. Like surface stuff. Right. It's not. How do you. How do you find a deep and rich fulfilling connection with somebody?

Maven [01:09:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:09:25] It's just surface stuff.

Maven [01:09:27] Right, Exactly. That was my big problem with it. But that wasn't even, like, the worst kind of language that we would get, because that was still fun. That's what they're. They're trying to make it fun. They're trying to teach us. But if they were upset, like, we could get really chastising or shaming language sometimes we'd be treated. And I think this was equally for men and Women, Women, like, we're not prioritizing marriage enough. We're enjoying being single too much and avoiding responsibility. Selfish, you know. Yeah, exactly. Selfish. We're not willing to settle down and do what we're supposed to do, you know. And so I know for sure men and women get that. I know I was made to feel a lot of times that there's something wrong with a woman who doesn't return a man's affections. And that was another thing that really bothered me would be stories like that. Like, you know, this guy was interested in this girl, but she must have felt she was too good for him or something. Something, you know. But he's married now and she's still single. Like, first of all, like, single. Some kind of a punishment. I don't feel like it's a punishment. But also, like, is it her fault that she didn't. Like, is she really uppity? Is she really too good for him if she's not, you know, like, can you just not feel.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] Marry below what feels right to you or marry something other than what.

Maven [01:10:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] Feels right.

Maven [01:10:37] Or how dare you feel like you should actually be in love with somebody. You know, like if they love you, that's an.

Jenn Kamp [01:10:43] Enough. That's weird. Go against your own intuition.

Maven [01:10:47] Yeah, right.

Jenn Kamp [01:10:48] Isn't that kind of.

Maven [01:10:49] I mean.

Jenn Kamp [01:10:49] Yeah.

Maven [01:10:49] If your intuition is telling you you're too good for somebody and you don't want them, like, that's the only. That's the only reason why you could not want somebody. I guess.

John Dehlin [01:10:56] And there's that quote, was it from Kimball, that like any two people living the gospel can make it work.

Maven [01:11:02] Yeah. Oh, I was very aware of that. Yeah. But again, like, I mean, and we talked about this growing up, like my parents divorced each other other twice. You know, I am not going to just pick somebody, you know, I. That's not a point that I would ever be at. So. Yeah. So dating is fraught. We did try. And of course that also the they brother really hate hanging out, which is just another area where like, they just

John Dehlin [01:11:26] don't explain what you mean by that. So the church leaders don't like.

Maven [01:11:30] Church leaders, young adults hanging out, hanging

John Dehlin [01:11:33] out with each other and just being friends. Friends versus dating.

Maven [01:11:36] Right, right. Because they feel like you are avoiding dating by hanging out. But it's just another thing that brethren get backwards that they just assert and. Or they see like correlation is not causation. Right. Because dating, especially the older you get, it is high pressure. And as much as you try to be authentic with somebody, it Ends up being like an interview just because that's the air that you breathe, you know, like it is an interview really. And so hanging out, group activities, those were the only. I felt like I could actually relax and be more myself. And other people could too. But the really hated that because again, they just think if you're hanging out then you're not dating and that's why you're not getting married. So there was all this shame around doing that. But doing a one on one date with a guy, you still have to feel like I have to put my best foot forward. I gotta be not my real self, but like the best fake self I can present, you know. And so it's no wonder, like nothing would ever, never go anywhere. But anyway, there's just, there's just a lot of issues. And being friends with guys was impossible, which was sad for me because I had always done well with guys, like in high school and on the mission even, just because like I, I was older. This was before the, the age dropped, so definitely outnumbered by guys. But because of that it was just easy and natural to be friends with the elder missionaries as well. Like nothing improper, but just, that's just how it was. But like in YSA wards and single adult words, just basic friendliness. My basic level of friendliness got interpreted as genuine interest so many times. And it just would be disastrous either way because if they, if they returned the feelings, then they would come on. What was too strong for me. I had someone call me his girlfriend, like on a second date. And I was like, I don't know if he said that just because that was easier to say to this person or if he actually thinks that's where we are because that's not where I think we are. So I had to bring it up and just be like, yeah, I don't know if you just kind of said that. Throw it out there. I just want to make sure we're on the same page because that's not the page I'm on. And that did not go well. He didn't say this to my face, but it came back around that I was called a bitch for that. And I guess he felt I was leading him on. But it was literally a second date. We're just barely getting. I hardly know this guy, right? Or a guy would not be interested. And so just being friendly, it's like they can't get away fast enough. And I've had some really awkward interactions where I've just been left almost stunned at how quickly just, just one phrase Would like make a guy run away almost and. And just wondering, like, what did I do wrong? You know, it just. There were just a lot of things that were really awkward about it. And then there's blind dates. And it was always like, usually older ladies, you know. And every blind date I've ever been set on is because I more and single. And those are the only two things that I have in common with that guy. That was. That would literally be it. There would be nothing else. And a lot of times it would be billed like, they would never say, like, he's got a great sense of humor. This is why you would like him or anything. The number of times that a blind date would be pitched to me like, ah, this. He just deserves a good woman in his life, you know? And that just makes it feel like I'm something, I'm an object. Like that he deserves, like he's entitled to for some reason. Yeah, he just. He's had a rough go of it. He like. Yeah, he just. He needs someone to help out with his kids or whatever. It's just. Yeah, it just was like, this is not how you want to sell somebody on a blind date for sure. And then the last.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] Because then these ysa words. There's a lot of divorced single people sometimes with kids, right.

Maven [01:15:12] And like, the older you get, the more, you know, the less likely that you're going to get somebody who. Who has not been married or. Or I mean, at least as far as as like sexual purity goes, has done something and that's the next thing. Like, it only took a couple. But I realize, I mean, again, the sexual purity for me as an asexual, which I'm unaware of at this point, is easy for me. But I am starting to realize the older I get, the I am. I get to the point I'm not expecting any guy to actually be at the same level that I'm at. And it's fine with me. But there are some guys that are kind of the opposite. There's a couple purity weirdos, I guess I don't know any other way to put it, but guys that are just like creepily way too into wanting virgins.

Jenn Kamp [01:16:00] Right.

Maven [01:16:02] I just. I've only had like two, you know, one kind of like point that I just like. You're so pure. It's creepy. It's creepy. It feels bad, you know. So normally you would think, like, it's a good thing to be a virgin in the church if you've never been married, like, that's what you should be. But I start to. This is a liability. This is not something I want. Just like with the missionary stuff. If there's guys that will completely write off a woman because she's a returned missionary, I don't want that. And if there's somebody that would write me off if I had any kind of sexual experience, I don't want them. They're creeping me out. So I start. I get. I'm not going to admit to anybody, especially not on a date, that I'm a virgin and actually would deliberately give the opposite impression without, like, outright lying, which is easy enough. Usually you just have to argue pretty vehemently for the atonement that, like, even if you've done anything sexual in the past, it shouldn't matter if you've repented. And if you just. Especially if you could do that in a Sunday school or something, you. You give enough of an idea to guys to maybe think that you're not, you know, and then. And then that would. That just made me feel better and, like, I feel safer in a way from guys like this. That. Yeah, I don't know, it just creeped me out. But at this point, I am starting to feel like something is kind of wrong. I can't put my finger on it initially, but. So I actually just recently found my patriarchal blessing. And there's a line in it that I remember. Like, this used to be the answer for me. It says in there, it says, as you keep yourself clean and chaste, the Holy Spirit will be your constant companion to guide and direct you and to give you the ability to recognize temptation from afar and. And flee from it. So for the longest time, I really thought, this is why I'm just, like, extra good at law of chastity stuff. It's a gift from God. It's literally something God has given me to just, like, stay far away from temptation. But as I'm getting older, it's not enough for me anymore to explain that or make me feel better. I'm starting to feel like there is something wrong. And at first I wonder if, like, is it me or is it everyone else? Because guys are getting, like, interested in me, and they're interested super fast and I'm not feeling it back. So is that a problem with me or are these guys guys? I kind of think maybe they're just horny, you know, and they're just not thinking with the brain up here, you know, or with their heart. But it's, you know, something a little bit lower. So can I even trust that they are actually Interested in me or they just really want to get married, you know, and, you know, yeah, maybe I haven't met the right guy. Maybe once I do, maybe two dates in, I'll be just as into it as he is, you know, and just wanting to, like, get that marriage date up for next month, you know, but it just never happened. And then, like, my previous assumption that I would just like sex once I got married and started having it, because who wouldn't? That's what everybody seems to. I start to really be concerned that that might not be true for me. And so, yeah, I remember. So this, at this point, the Josh and Lally weed article comes out where they are a mixed orientation marriage. And. And this is the first time I really see, like, the point of view of a homosexual in the church and what it's like and how confusing it is and all the different mess. So it was a really big step forward initially in my understanding of, like, LGBTQ issues. But it also gives me, like, this idea that I can marry a gay man in the temple. And I'm like, I'm super into this idea. I think it's brilliant. And I feel like I could do, like, one better than Lollyweed, because I'm not expecting sex from him. He could, you know, if he doesn't want to, that's fine. And he doesn't have to lie to me, you know, like guys do in a lot of mixed orientation marriages. Like, I just think I'm quite charitable. I am willing to. To, you know, sacrifice. To give a gay man the chance to be himself in a marriage and not have to lie to me, but also have a celestial marriage. And this is brilliant. This is perfect. Like, this is the answer.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] I am just stunned that the Mormon dating world led you to a place where you're feeling like marrying a gay man would be an awesome thing as a. Yeah. As a woman.

Jenn Kamp [01:20:01] Yeah.

Maven [01:20:02] And, you know, I was even thinking, like, we can still be parents. Parents, you know, if we can try it the natural way. But if either one of us is, like, a little too. We can have a middleman, you know, go to a fertility clinic or something. You know, magazines for him, turkey baster for me. It's a biological child. Nobody has to know. Nobody has to know. Nobody has to know. We check all the boxes, we get our celestial marriage, we become parents, we do the whole thing. And I just kind of. I think I liked the idea too, of just of kind of the stereotypical, like, gay best friend that I'm married to. Like, it really did Seem like an appealing option to me. As embarrassing as it is to admit

John Dehlin [01:20:37] now it sounds like a self. Abrahamic self sacrifice. It's. Instead of you offering Abraham offering up his son, you're offering up yourself for a gay man so that he can. I guess so you can get some of the things you want.

Maven [01:20:50] But yeah, I. Out of that, actually, I would be the only one really getting what I want because I am wanting basically a sexless marriage. And so it's not till later that I really realize, like, what I would be doing to, you know, my husband in. In this scenario. That way maybe I would be happy and my needs are taken care of, but his would not be. But there's other things I'm starting to learn. Like there's a lot of assumptions I have about what's normal for women.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:14] At the same time, though, you're. You're not asking anything more than the church is asking them to do.

Maven [01:21:21] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] No, you're getting them in the, like, you're, you're.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:26] Yeah, yeah, like that's what the church asks them to do.

John Dehlin [01:21:29] The church wants gay men.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:30] That's what they, they tell them to do.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:33] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:34] And so, like, joining the plan.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:36] Yeah. My heart is hurting for so many people in that, like, scenario.

Maven [01:21:42] And this why I feel like I was better than, like a heterosexual woman because, like, I would not be wanting them, like, to, to force themselves to have sex with me if they're not attracted to me. You know, I'm fine with not, you know, or very rarely or, you know, whatever we feel like. So I, I feel like I'm actually doing one better for them.

John Dehlin [01:22:02] Wow.

Maven [01:22:03] But this is, but this is the thing.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] I wonder how many asexual Mormon women have taken that path.

Maven [01:22:08] I wonder because it, yeah, because like,

John Dehlin [01:22:10] structurally it makes perfect sense.

Jenn Kamp [01:22:12] Or how many gay men have.

John Dehlin [01:22:14] Well, we know that.

Jenn Kamp [01:22:15] You know what I mean?

Maven [01:22:16] Well, yeah, yeah, we know that.

John Dehlin [01:22:18] That are thousands, if not tens of thousands of gay Mormon men have married women.

Jenn Kamp [01:22:24] It just hurts my heart that that would be like, like logically thinking within the church, that would be a conclusion like that. That is a conclusion that, like, people could feel good about with what the church teaches instead of thinking, I, I want to find this man that I want to be married to where we don't have to be intimate very often in that way, but we can be intimate in so many other ways and can be fulfilled and have this beautiful relationship, you know, and maybe have kids one day or maybe not or like, all these things that should be

Maven [01:23:08] what

Jenn Kamp [01:23:08] you're thinking about, you know, if you're thinking of what you want, want and what's inside you.

Maven [01:23:14] Well, I didn't even know that this was possible, honestly, because, again, like, I. I had heard about asexuality before, but I. I had it kind of wrapped up in this, like, aromantic and asexual. Like, they just don't have feelings. Almost kind of like the damaging kind of stereotype. And I was like, I had crushes on guys, so that's not me. So I'm. I'm trying to actually figure out what's wrong with me at this point. And I mean, first of all, a lot of teachings about women and sex are kind of asexual in a way. And so I just kind of take for granted that it's true. Like. Like, women just don't like sex as much as men, you know? So, like, it is kind of like an obligatory, like, duty for some, you know. But I have friends who are married now, and they are faithful Mormon women. And so I'm learning, like, this is not true. I have friends who like sex, you know, and then.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] Friends.

Maven [01:24:00] Women friends. Right? Yeah. I mean, and this was even a joke, I want to say. Like, I don't remember it. This was in a chat on, like, either one of your podcast or one of ours, the morbid discussions about penises that just, like, all women think they're weird and gross. Right? And that was a joke. This was something that a guy said to me just recently as a joke. Like, let's be honest, they are kind of weird, you know, and so that's where the thing, like, the joke, like, for me, becomes very literal and just, like, all encompassingly true. But again, like, I have faithful Mormon LDS women who are friends. We have our girl talk, and they tell me, maybe not explicitly, but enough for me to infer that they like this part of their husband and maybe other things are done with them willingly that are not procreative. Exactly. So I'm getting this kind of idea, like, all right, I have friends that like this. So it's not just every woman thinks that they're weird or gross or whatever. And then I also thought, and this is kind of partly because of my patriarchal blessing line, but for Strength of Youth, where they constantly tell you arouse these feelings in yourself. Right? So if you never do anything to arouse them, then that's normal and you won't feel anything sexual. Right? But I'm starting to learn that's not true either. There's lots of people who have never had sex but are feeling sexual and want to have sex. Like, they. Especially guys, you know, they can be virgins, but really, really, really, really want to have sex with a woman and feel this and. And not just guys, but women, too. I had a room who, again, like, with our girl talk, we learned, like, we're. We're both similar. We neither of us have ever had sex or masturbated or done anything that we're not supposed to do, right? But there's one day we were. It was actually we were walking home from church because I think we had another, like, really awful, patronizing singlehood. Some kind of a lesson or talk or something. And we both said, like, we don't mind being single so much. And my roommate, I remember her saying, the only thing that bothers me is just feeling so horny sometimes. And this just shocked me. And at first I thought maybe I misunderstood. And I was like, wait, didn't. Didn't you say, like, you've never had sex before? Right? And she's like, no, I've never had sex. And I. And you've never masturbated? She's like, no, I've never masturbated. But, like, but you can still feel horny. That's normal. And I just remember that being like a real punch to the gut because I was like, I think she's right. I think that is normal. And I am not normal because I have never wanted to have sex with a man. I have never, like, even, like, people that I had intense crushes on. I've never wanted to, like, do this act with them and. Or I've never felt like I need to. I want to take. I wish I could masturbate so I could take care of this need. I've never felt that. And that's where I really start feeling like I am broken. There's something, like, really, really wrong with me. Me. And it was shortly around that time the Josh and Lollyweed retraction comes. Can I.

John Dehlin [01:26:56] Can I explain that really quick?

Maven [01:26:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] Yeah. So for those who don't know the Josh and Lollyweed, we. We actually interviewed them on Mormon stories, and we'll include a link to that in the show notes. But basically, you know, during the Prop 8 time and. And LGBT issues are really raging, this really nice guy named Josh Weed comes out and says, I'm giving gay, but I'm attracted to my wife Lolly. And he calls himself jokingly Lolly sexual because he's like, I'm fully gay, never attracted to women, but I married my wife Lolly and we have a great sex life. And they didn't go so far as to say, you can do it too. But they were embraced by faithful Mormons as an example of a mixed faith marriage, mixed orientation marriage that can wait work. And so who knows? And they were on magazine covers or invited as speakers at special events. And it just sends the message to gay Mormons everywhere and lesbian Mormons everywhere that you can be like Josh and Lali. Whether or not Josh and Lally even wanted people to follow their example, because I think they were pretty responsible in saying it's just us, we're not role models, but we do feel like, like we can share our authentic experience. So I was, I was grateful to be able to interview them during that time. And we were all just waiting for the other shoe to drop. Because in the history of Mormonism and in the history of evangelical Christianity and Catholicism and orthodox Judaism, we've got decades of these people who hold themselves up as role models publicly for either gay celibacy or gay mixed orientation marriages. They were either lies to begin with or they, they weren't sustainable.

Maven [01:28:48] Right.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] And so you're saying at the back end of that story, after years and years of Mormons follow Josh and Lally Weed's example, you find out what.

Maven [01:28:58] Well, they, they put out a retraction and they are getting divorced. And, and that's where I really learned.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] Josh comes out as gay and Josh and Lalee announce a divorce. Right, Right.

Maven [01:29:10] Yeah. I mean, he had come out with that first one, but just that they got to the point where it was not sustainable.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] Like you said, you don't hear much from them anymore.

Maven [01:29:18] Yeah, but so that first article was really good for me. It really opened my mind to a lot of what the experience was for Josh growing up in the church. So I feel like it was good article for me at the time.

Jenn Kamp [01:29:29] Time.

Maven [01:29:29] But then so was the retraction even more so. Again, they, it was very thorough. They're both extremely long but very detailed. And I just, I understood, they just expressed it deeply and well enough that I understood what the problem was and they expressed a lot of regret for the, the pain and, and things like that that they, you know, inadvertently caused. But, but now I know, like now my gay best friend, mixed orientation marriage is, is kind of out. And I'm still trying to figure out, out what's wrong with me that maybe I can fix in time for an actual real normal heterosexual marriage.

John Dehlin [01:30:02] But at least maybe you felt like you dodged a bullet by not entering into it.

Maven [01:30:05] I Think so. I mean, and it's kind of difficult to do. Josh and Lolly, we had been friends for a long time, so it is kind of hard for an asexual to just find a gay man, especially because a lot would be closeted, so there would be guys that I would strongly suspect were gay. But, like, how do you broach that? You know, like, hey, are you gay? And are you worried about this? Like, I, I didn't know asexual, so I wouldn't have said that. But I, you know, how would I bill myself as, like, I would marry you and you wouldn't have to have sex with me. You know, it's just a. Where do you bring up that kind of conversation? How do you get yourself in a situation where you could do. I just never did, you know, so. But, you know, if I had, like a lifelong friend that I, you know, I can see how it happened for them and, like, a conversation could go that way.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] Well, this just happened to be a major topic of my PhD dissertation. And what we found, found through serving 1612 LGBTQ Mormons, was that those who entered into mixed orientation marriages, there was like a 70 divorce rate and satisfaction rates equivalent to having kind of like quality of life outcomes equivalent to having lupus for, for the LGBT members of the mixed orientation marriages. So, so super low health, quality of life, high depression, just miserable outcomes with 70% divorce rates. Who would wish that on anyone? And yet bishops and prophet seers are revelators. That's, that's the option they pushed gay Mormons into and straight women and lesbian women and straight men for decades. So you did dodge a bullet.

Maven [01:31:44] Yeah, and marrying young too, before I realized. So I think I dodged several. But yeah, I, I, I, I had my hormones checked because I thought maybe that was the issue twice. Actually. It's slightly different tests, like the next time, everything is fine. I mean, it's the obgyn, which I like it only been to once before because I'm not sexually active, so why. But I go, maybe there's just something physically wrong, you know, but everything checks out there too. And even I brought it up to him because I was like, you know, I, I kind of feel like I don't think I want to have sex. Is that, is that weird? Is that normal? And he, yeah, like a lot of OB G men are not educated on this at all. So this is, I guess, kind of like my best, worst bishop kind of experience. Right. Don't realize actually how helpful it is that he didn't pathologize it or like immediately start recommending the therapies or whatever. But he just said, you know, it. Well, it depends. It can be normal for some people. And you know, he. I remember him asking like, does it cause you distress? And that is usually a factor to decide if this is a problem or not. And I didn't know how to answer because I wanted to say, well, yes, but no. Because for me personally, no, I am fine. But I have this expectation that I need to get married in the temple and I need to be a mom. I need to have sex. This is something that I have to do and that distresses me. So that way yes. But anyway, it just doesn't get really resolved or go anywhere, anywhere. And I even wonder because this is something, you know, I've heard about like repressed memories, especially young of like sexual assault. I don't remember if I asked my dad, but I literally asked my mother, did something happen to me when I was a kid, maybe when I was really little that I don't remember, you know, do you know? And that's quite a topic to bring up too. But I think I just brought up in this repressed. I've heard of this thing. And how would you know if you have repressed memories or not? Yeah, would I? Do you know anything? And she said no, like she didn't know anything. So like, I'm just like, maybe I just internalized law of chastity like a little bit too well. So from there I start reading more about healthy sexuality. I start reading about purity culture stuff even. I also I read and they were not Ashamed, which is the Mormon book. And it's one of the most explicit that you can get in Deseret books. I think it's good at least for that reason alone. And so I, so I start reading these and this also becomes yet another shelf item on top of the anthropology stuff, stuff, the Jerusalem stuff that all of these things are piling up and the toxicity in the church that I'm seeing now, I'm seeing that a lot of the church's teachings are really bad for healthy sexuality. So I am actually starting to become a very sex positive person from the things I am learning here. I realize now that I was not able to realize because of my own lived experience just how important sexuality really is for people. And I want people, people to have amazing sexual relationships with people that they love. The only problem is is that none of this stuff that I learn about changes how I personally feel about doing it. But if anything it actually my anxiety over marriage and sex is actually worse because now I know, like, if I do get married, my reticence to have sex, this will be harmful to my potential future husband who will be somebody that I love, because I'm not going to marry somebody that I don't have some feelings for. And so now I'm feeling kind of really like in a. I'm stuck in a bind where I don't see a way out because I really do feel like having sex that I don't want is a violation to me. But withholding it from a man is very unhealthy and unhappy for him, and I don't want to do that. And so, yeah, I. I start having recurring nightmares about being married. And they're just psychological ones. Nothing happens. But I. It always starts after I'm already married. Shortly after I'm. I'm at home. It's a nice big house, like the ones I wanted, with the multiple floors at least, with the beige walls and the. At, you know, paintings and that kind of thing. My husband, whoever it is, he's on his way home. I know, like from work or something. He's. He's going to be walking in the door. I'm standing at the base of the stairs near the door, and I'm feeling like I. I don't want to be married. I know I don't want to be married. And so the choice I have is, okay, I probably should have decided this before I got married. But of course the dream didn't start there, so I can't really control that. But I'm so feeling that I can leave now. It's still okay. I can apologize to family. I can apologize to him. Yes, it's going to be a mess, but it's still early, you know, it's still better now. It would have been better before, but it's still okay now. But I just, I have to leave before he walks in the door. So there's just kind of this ticking time bomb clock when my husband. Because I feel like for whatever reason in the dream, once my husband comes in the door, I am obligated to stay. I'm obligated to stay day and make it work out for 20 plus years till the kids are raised at least, you know, and. And maybe it won't be so bad, but at the same time, if I just leave now, and that's all the dream is. And, but I would just have it every couple of months and just not know what to do. And so I try to, like, reassure myself, like, no, I'm Overthinking it. I probably will just like it. I, once I have, I'm married, you know, you have a few awkward times, you get things figured out. It'll be fine. I probably will. It's probably a. Okay, but I don't feel like it is. And then I also tell, you know, even if not, you know, like I tell myself women have been having like obligatory sex for millennia and you know, am I being a bit privileged maybe or entitled to actually want to want it? You know, how am I any better than like countless women throughout the ages? You know, I'm trying to make myself feel better, right? It does not work. These things do not make me feel better. Better about getting married anyway. But these are the kinds of thoughts that go through my head. So I finally, and, and this was another thing that I, I start to realize like this is where it kind of like having to wait until you're married. Especially like an eternal commitment like we have in the church to find out if you're sexually compatible. I, I just again, more shelf item stuff because I'm like, I can't know this. I wish I could know before. Before ruining my life life or ruining a man's life, you know. Anyway, at one point I'm really thinking maybe I just really have just built this up in my mind. I just need to get over it. And I haven't even kissed anybody in a long time. So I think like, you know, what I really need to do to just kind of get over this is I just need like a good old fashioned like BYU Nick Moore. For the uninitiated, a non committal makeout. Which is not something I ever did at byu, but it was definitely part of the culture. And, and yeah, so I have been dating through this. They're not going anywhere. But I decided I just need to do it. It's like the mission. This is really how I think about it. Sometimes when my anxiety was really, really high on the mission, I just did not feel like I could go out and do a whole day of tracking. It was just that first door that was the hardest. And that's like your heart kind of leaps up but you reach out, you knock that door, the person answers. Whether it goes well or it goes badly, it doesn't matter. It just kind of of like it. It's just done. There's some relief and, and then each door after that is easier. So this is how I'm thinking about this Nickmo. I just need to kiss a guy and it'll just be like that Door. And. And then after that, like, you know, feelings will take over or whatever, you know, it'll be fine. And so, because I'm. I had, like, ended something with somebody recently after a third date, but he was really into me and I was obviously, I mean, physical. He didn't do anything to me that I didn't want to have happen, but he was definitely ready. I knew on previous days that he was just waiting for the cue from me that it would be okay, you know, And I just never gave that cue, so he never followed it. So I call this guy up because I know he'll be into it. And so I'd say, what do you do? You know, we go, you know, hang out or whatever. So maybe we had dinners. I don't remember what we did, but we're done with that. We're in my car, and I'm not feeling scared or anxious, actually, at all. I mean, I'm not excited about it, but I just really feel like it's just the door. I just need to knock on the door, right? And I'm actually kind of glad again. I'm not even thinking or expecting that it'll be good because I have not kissed anybody in a while, so it's probably going to be bad. I just have low expectation. But that's okay. It doesn't need to be good or bad. I just need to do it. That's all that needs to happen. I just need to do it.

John Dehlin [01:40:13] Because if you do what might might

Maven [01:40:15] happen, because if I. It'll just, like, take away all this fear that I have about it. I've just ruminated and I've just made it too big of a deal. So if I just do it, even if it's bad, like, it'll be okay. That wasn't that big of a deal, you know, And I'll be fine and I'll be normal and everything will be fixed. So. And especially like with this guy, he was eager and he was waiting. So I'm waiting for a right chance in the conversation, like the lull to come. And I know all I have to do. Do I just have to lean just a little bit. He'll take it. He'll. He's ready for the queue, right? I. I was like, that's literally all I have to do. And then just kind of go with it. Just go with the flow at that point. So, yeah, so I'm. I'm halfway listening to him talking because I'm waiting and like, for this month, this is really why I'm here. And I'm definitely not gonna, like, you know, chicken out and let this just go away, right? So the.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:08] Lol happy.

Maven [01:41:10] And I. And I reckon, okay, this is the moment, all right? I'm gonna do it. And so I. I decide. It was like, the second I made the decision, like, now this is it. I meant to. I wanted to lean over, but I couldn't.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:31] I just froze. Because I've never felt like this before. But I just felt like.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:37] Like

Jenn Kamp [01:41:40] the moment I made that decision to do it.

Maven [01:41:46] I would have expected, I think, some anxiety or some nervousness, and that would have been fine.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:51] And I would have pushed through it, but I didn't feel that at all. I felt. It felt like I just. Like this black hole in my heart just opened. I don't know. I just, like, sucked out everything that I was. My personality. Like, it's just in that instant, I felt empty. I felt dead inside. And I couldn't. I couldn't move.

Maven [01:42:30] I just felt so sad.

Jenn Kamp [01:42:33] Just intensely sad. And really, it was shocking because I did not expect it at all. I expected just a little bit of, like, teenage nervousness, you know, and that would have been fine. So I think. I mean, at some point, I stammer out something. I say I'm not feeling well, maybe dinner isn't settling with me and I need to go. And so. So he's respectful, and he gets out of the car and the door closes, and I'm just pulling out of there so fast, and. Because I start crying because I just didn't know what happened. It was really shocking to me. And I just remember

Maven [01:43:16] just pulling out

Jenn Kamp [01:43:17] of the parking lot. This was my last go. This was my last idea to figure out what is wrong with me. And I don't know. And I just remember just saying that and just praying out loud, like, what is wrong with me? What is wrong with me? I'm broken. There's something wrong with me. This isn't normal. I'm supposed to want these things. It was just really devastating. And I don't know, it just, like, bothered me for a while, but it just. I just start realizing, like, this isn't fair. You know, I just. This is the point where I start feeling like, why does marriage matter? Like, why is this the most important thing for exaltation? Like, why does it have to involve somebody else? And why does it have to involve, like, the use of my body sexually? This is where I finally realized that if a man has been obedient his whole life, that the only sexual expression he's ever allowed to have is through the use of my body. And so this is where I really start feeling like an object. I don't think. I mean, even growing up, I don't think I ever felt full ownership of my body with the church's teachings. But at this point, I really, really feel that it's not mine and I'm not in charge of it. And I just. I just don't know why God would make me this way, you know? And so I. I do finally, like,

Maven [01:44:55] circle around to asexuality and I actually learn about it. And I learned that you could be asexual and masturbate. You could be asexual and have romantic feelings. Like, there's all these, you know, I really start to learn about it in depth. And I finally, finally recognize that this is me. And it was really great because I. I finally felt like I'm not broken.

Jenn Kamp [01:45:14] You know, there's other people like me,

Maven [01:45:16] and there's a chance I can find an ace guy to marry in the temple. But at this point, I am starting to come to, like, with the idea of being permanently single in the church. And I'm aware of the idea that single sister. I guess there's different doctrines, right, that you. You become servants in heaven if you don't marry in the temple. But then also there's the. If you're faithful and you live up to your covenants, like, the Lord will just fix it in the end. Which I just kind of took to mean that I would be assigned as a plural wife to some righteous man, you know, in the afterlife. I just. I'm not really worrying about it or thinking about. About it. And I. And I keep that from my family. There was one. I mean, they know I kind of date a little bit, but they also know, like, nothing has happened since that first boyfriend at the age of 19. And then David Archuleta comes out, right? I live with my brother at this point, and I, like, he had heard that David Archuleta came out, which he came out as bi and as asexual. And that was the first time a lot of people heard about it, including my brother. But he asked me, he said, what did he come out as? And for a second, I almost didn't even want to say it out loud to my brother because I thought, he'll figure it out. And this is a conversation I'm not really ready to have. So I was going to just say bi, but then I thought, that's ridiculous. I need to say it. So I said, he came out as bi. And as asexual, which is the A in lgbtqia. And then I, like, found an excuse to leave and basically go to my part of the house. But a couple hours later, my brother came back and he was like, what's the A? And I had forgotten the conversation, but he had to ask again, what's the A in lgbtqia? And I remember thinking, like, oh, no, he figured it out. Like, I. I don't know how to talk about this because it's something people, a lot of people just don't understand and they invalidate it or they want to ask you, like, is there something wrong with you? Have you checked your hormones? Is there, like, you just. Your own experience is invalidated a lot. But anyway, I just. I said it's. It's asexual. And I remember my brother just had it giving me this weird look. And I'm thinking, like, he's going to ask me if I'm asexual. But instead what he said, said was. Was like, David Archulette, like, he's in love with himself. He has sex with himself. And I've just. I just started laughing and just being like, bro, that's masturbation. Like, anybody can do that. And he was like, oh, okay, I guess so what does it mean? And I just had to explain, like, he just has less sexual attraction towards people. So that was the only, like, close call. And then from.

John Dehlin [01:47:46] And I'll just. Yeah, maybe if it's okay, I'll just say that. Asexuality. It's so interesting because I thought of myself as an LGBTQ ally 10 years ago, 15 years ago, knowing nothing about trans issues, knowing nothing about non binary stuff, and knowing nothing about asexuality. And, you know, every couple of years, I. I actually really start to learn a little bit of. About some of the other letters in the acronym. And my. One of my children, my daughter Clara, came out to us as asexual and wrote a book about it and has a YouTube channel and a TikTok channel about it. And I'm only sharing it because the book is done really well. It's been really well received, and it just does a really good job of explaining asexuality. And Claire's got a corresponding, you know, some videos on YouTube and on Tik Tok that really help as well. So this is an. This is. This is an identity that is. That has always affected a lot of people and is going to continue affecting a lot of people into the future and may even be affecting you. So get educated about asexuality. It's really important. It's poorly understood and it's real. And it's. It. There's a sizable part of the population that experiences asexuality or aromanticism or both or some shade within.

Jenn Kamp [01:49:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:15] So thank you for being willing to educate us and share your experiences and please, audience, get educated however you choose to. Yeah.

Maven [01:49:24] And I do want to add to that. And your daughter's book is a good one. And it's also very short. I did, I purchased it. So it's a great introduction if someone isn't familiar. But the. A lot of people think it's a really very small portion of the population. One percent is something that's put out a lot. And there's nothing official bigger than that. I just, I personally think that that is really small because especially in asexual circles or like on Reddit or forums where people are asking questions, like, the most common posts are posts of people saying like, am I because of this or that? You know, there's something they think, like, I did, like, I had romantic feelings, so I don't think I am. Or there's the most common, really is like, I masturbate, so can I be asexual? And the answer is yes. So that's like the first common, like, most common type of thing is like, am I? Because, you know, here's the A list of things that all, like, fall really in line with that. And then the second most common post is like, I'm sorry. So happy I figured this out. I didn't know this was a thing. I thought I was broken. So people just don't know about it. And I. That's the only reason why I think that that number is so low, because I really thought I was a straight person my whole life until this point.

John Dehlin [01:50:39] Yeah. And by the way, that's, you know, 1%. If there's 329 million people in the United States, that's 3.2 million people in the United States.

Jenn Kamp [01:50:49] States.

John Dehlin [01:50:50] If a ward has two or 300 people, that's two or three people in every ward. So I don't know why 1% is a small number. I'm not responding to you. I'm responding to the perception that that's not a lot of people. That's a lot of people. Three million people in the US Alone. That's a lot of people. You know what a million people have died of COVID That's three times the number of people have died of COVID Like, that's a lot of people. But also, yeah, it's confusing because you can have a high libido and be asexual. Meaning. Meaning you can want to masturbate every day, even have a high, high libido in terms of masturbation, but not experience desire for another person.

Maven [01:51:31] Partner.

Jenn Kamp [01:51:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:32] And confusingly, you can even like sex, but be asexual because even though you like the act of sex, you may not feel desire or attraction for the person you're having sex with. With. Which again, is something that can be a problem if the person wants you to desire them. And you may like sex, but not necessarily desire them. So it's. And then there's all sorts of different forms of attraction, from aesthetic attraction to intellectual attraction to emotional attraction, you know, cycle. So learning about all this stuff is just so crucial. Do yourself a favor and learn about asexuality.

Maven [01:52:10] Another good resource is aven, which is the asexuality of Visibility Education Network. And I think it's just avenue. We might have to double check that, maybe put that in the show notes. So at this point, I. I figure out that I'm asexual. I'm still an active member. Even if I'm not maybe active going because of my job. I still feel like I have a testimony. Although this is definitely a big hit to it where I. This is the first time I'm really feeling that I don't fit into this grand plan very well. But if we go back, we're going to go back in time just a little bit to. To kind of more of the buildup to where things unravel. Because I actually want to go just more like toxicity in the church. I'm seeing, besides just what's happening in the wards.

Faith Crisis, Racial Issues, and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:52:53] So this begins the section on kind of the unraveling of your faith. Right?

Maven [01:52:57] The end of it. Yeah, we're nearing the end. This is where, like, again, just. I have so many shelf items from college, from my major, from the peace building program, from the Jerusalem program, and from my mission and just whatever else, things that I've been putting on my shelf my whole life. The Ordain Women movement happens. That's when I'm in Casper White, Wyoming, and I'm mostly on the faithful side of it. I feel like Kate Kelly is doing it wrong. We don't counsel the brethren. And, and I am embarrassed to say I did the, you know, why. Why would I want the priesthood, you know, kind of a thing, but there was something in this movement that I. I am finally realizing there's definitely something that's not Equal here. I've been told it's equal my whole life. And I really, really try hard to pretend that that's true. And I really try hard to believe, believe that. But I'm, I'm realizing it's not. I, again, overall, I'm overwhelmingly with the church on this, on the church's side, I guess. But I do hate the apologetic that motherhood is the equivalent to priesthood when it's clearly not. This is apple and oranges. I really hate this comparison. So I, that's one thing. I feel like people should just get rid of that. And then this is the point. I think I did talk about this before when I was talking about temple stuff. I skipped ahead to the future where I said that there was a point where I'm in the temple example. And I'm wondering if maybe part of the reason why I'm struggling with some of the stuff is because I, I really need to just accept that I'm not truly equal with men. Just, just, you know, I think I was doing this and that like, women are just like a touch lower. This was the point. This was that point where I was like, maybe wanting to be truly equal with men in the church is a point of pride. And this is where like this conflict is coming from. And if I just accept that I'm not, then it won't be so hard to do all this stuff in the temple and the veiling, etc, but that's as far as that goes, right? And I also, like, again, this is something my whole life I just don't understand. And it just calls to the front. Again, I don't understand why women can't have something that's so good to God and righteous to have his power and authority to bless the world and to perform essential sacred ordinances for people's salvation. I don't understand why having a vagina means that I cannot do this for other people, that God does not want to allow that because it is just up to him. Then there's the November 2015 policy that I deeply know is wrong. I deeply, deeply know this is a step backwards. Up until this point, I was still kind of thinking and hoping this would be like blacks in the priesthood. You know, at some point the, the brethren's going to completely. They'll get a revelation, it'll be reversed. We're already heading that way. They're already, you know, kind of acknowledging that it's not a choice, whereas when I was in high school, it absolutely was a choice. If they say that it's not they're lying. You know, we've come all this way and so to have this leak, I just. It seems like two steps backward, and I feel deeply disturbed about it. And I just. I just don't think about it, which, again, is a point of privilege because it's not ruining my life right then and there. And I don't have any close friends or family. Family who it is ruining. So I'm able to, for several years, actually push it out. Um, I start realizing that the church really doesn't make a lot of people happier. Maybe quite kind of the opposite. I'm realizing, like, for a lot of people. And I even saw this a couple times on my mission. Like, I. This idea or, like, realization. Some people who, if they were to join the church, they would be less happy. Um, I. And. And the whole narrative of, like, we're really, truly happy in the church and outside people are. Are faking it. I know this is not. Because I know I'm faking happy. I know lots of people are faking happy. And the people outside of the church, they don't have to pretend like we do. They don't have the same structures in place to make it look like more or less righteous. I'm starting to realize this is genuine happiness. But I'm also kind of confused about. Especially people who leave the church. I remember seeing friends on Facebook or in tank tops or whatever, and they're like, I've lost 20 pounds since leaving the church. And I just would be like, I don't get that. Because there's people healthy in the church who work out. So why did. Why do you have to leave the church to lose 25 pounds or, you know, 20 pounds or whatever? Like, what difference does that make? Or if they. Like, I'm living my more authentic life. I just feel like I don't get how, like is wearing a tank top. Is that more authentically you. It's just a piece of clothing. You know, I just don't. I see that there's something here, but I don't get it. I don't get, well, how is coffee more authentically you. You know, how does this really make a difference? But it seems to. And then also, like, as the election ramps up, at that time, I'm just seeing more openly hateful and racist and. And sexist comments and actions from members of the church. And this is what, like, the. This hypocrisy. And I'm just starting to really, really sense that the people around me are really are really uncaring, that they care more about ideologies than people. And they don't seem to be caring like who gets hurt and who's getting. I also start having trouble reconciling past excuses. I used to accept this, that prophets being men of their time, speaking as men, you know, it was wrong. There's always been obvious problems with that, but I always just never thought about it. But now I'm thinking about it and I'm wondering, like, where's Jesus in this church? We talk about him, but it really seems like lip service. Does anybody care about Jesus? And then the reversal comes along, quote unquote. Reversal of What? Of the 2015 policy. And that I'm glad for. But it's happened so closely after the other one that it just really throws a wrench into things because it's making it painfully obvious that this is not revelation, that this is men at the helm. And it's the first I'm really facing that it's not revelation, it's not coming from God. I really am starting to think that this is men. But I'm still just not ready to lose my testimony at this point. Jonathan Streeter put out the fake apology for the church's racism. And at this point I still have like this hateful, anti lying, like lying anti Mormon kind of view. And as soon as I see that there just the title that the LDS Church apologizes for racism. Because I know enough about the church at this time, I know that it's fake because I know that the church is not going to apologize for it. And so I assume it's a sarcastic bit by this. I again, a cantankerous lying anti Mormon. He's just bent on destroying the church and I don't see why it's getting shared. And why are my friends falling for this? Are they even reading it? I haven't read it. I do read it. It's really good. It's really empathetic. There's a few call outs in there that I do know it is from an anti Mormon. But it really bothered me how empathetic it came across and also just what a good structure of an actual genuine apology would be. And I realized even if the church did an apology, it would not be anywhere near this good. And so that's another point of like dissonance for me. How come, how come anti Mormons are more empathetic and understand the problems better than the Lord's anointed and chosen? And so I mean somewhere along this way I'm watching YouTube and like on one of the Suggestions. There comes up a video and it's a, it's actually a Jimmy Snow video. And it said something like, why do atheists hate God? Right? And I still have this very negative kind of Benson view of atheists, that they're just, you know, God haters, country haters, Democrats, you know, just all the bad things. And so I, but I realized like, I've never actually listened to an atheist explain themselves or explain why. So I click on the video and so he explained, like, we don't actually hate God, we just really, really don't think he's there. And I remember like watching that and being like, okay, I understand that. And yeah, I mean, I still believe in God, but okay, I understand this point of view. But then there were others. And so I listened to these other videos like about Pascal's Wager, which I didn't know by that name. But, but that's just the argument that, you know, if we're right, if God believers are right, then yeah, we've got heaven and we don't lose anything or, you know, whatever. And, and if you're wrong about this, like, you know, for evangelicals, it's burning in hell, but you're just, you're in a really bad place if you're wrong about this. And I used to think that was a really slam dunk argument, like a better safe than so, but that was kind of dispelled and I realized that that's not good. So it just kind of like went from there. All these arguments. Look at the trees, look at the creation around you. How come this isn't enough for atheists to believe? And then, you know, it gets explained and I understand it, it doesn't affect my belief in God, but I do at least believe what atheists say about their own beliefs now, if that makes sense. But after a while I also start getting back into biblical things that I had learned about, back into like the Jerusalem stuff. And again, a lot of it's still Bible and Christian, so it's safe because there's no way I can lose my testimony through that, right? So, yeah, so I, I'm learning more and I'm, I'm fine until I start not being fine. I guess I start realizing, like, I don't know, that I have really good reasons to believe in God except for feelings. And I understand the problem with that now that they can be extremely unreliable and that you can believe false things with, with feelings. And then I also, like, I start to see problems with Christian theology in general that Mormonism doesn't fix, because that's. That's what I always thought. Mormonism fixes these holes. But I'm seeing, like, the idea of being broken and sinful and needing a savior in the first place. That's really problematic. The idea of, like, blood sacrifice, it's blood magic. It's very barbaric, and it's very ancient. I'm starting to see, like, these connections between, you know, the culture, a sacrificial God to pay for sins, and, like, with no accountability. And I'm realizing, like, what. What this is doing is actually. It's. It's less like innocent people getting,

Jenn Kamp [02:02:50] you

Maven [02:02:51] know, help from it, but it's actually protecting a lot more abusers and evildoers, really, than the innocent. And also, I get, like, with evolution, the things I should have realized in Jerusalem when at byu. If there's no. If the Garden of Eden is metaphorical, if the flood is metaphorical, if these things are metaphorical, then so is the atonement. There's no need for atonement if there is no fall. And I just start realizing everything that has happened in the world is just really explainable by natural things. But I. Boy, am I in denial for a very long time. I. I think I was atheist along before I was ever willing to admit it to myself. And so it took me a couple weeks, but I think there's a. Maybe one of my very rare days off, I was standing in my kitchen. I'm looking out the window, and it's a very nice day outside. The sky is blue. My neighbor has, like, their kids are playing in the background or, like, in their backyard. I can them. And I finally just allow the thought to come. Like, I don't think I believe in God anymore. And I just remember feeling like, yeah, just like the ground was getting way beneath my feet. And I feel like this is, like, my entire worldview. My framework is just shattering all around me. It's falling. It's in splinters and shards. There's nothing savable. Even if I wanted to try to catch the something from this house, you know, that's falling, and the ground's also just getting washed away beneath me. There's nothing. There's nothing savable. It's. Everything's too tiny. Everything's too broken up. So I'm just standing there, just feeling like I'm falling, even though I'm not. I'm just standing in my kitchen.

Jenn Kamp [02:04:27] But I just.

Maven [02:04:28] This. It lasts for a while, and the primary song comes to mind. It's almost mocking, you know, like the Wise man built his house upon the rock, and the foolish man built his house upon the sand. And I quite, I very literally felt. Feel like this sand like, is being washed out from under my feet. I thought I built on the rock, you know, the rock of my redeemer, you know. Helaman 5:12. If you build on his rock like, you cannot fall. But I am, because it wasn't a rock. And it's washing away. And I feel powerless. I cannot stop it. I can't get it back.

Jenn Kamp [02:04:59] It's gone, you know, it's gone.

Maven [02:05:02] And so I stand there. I just kind of deal with this till I. I guess it feels like it is gone. Like the water gone. The last pieces have fallen. There's nothing I've grabbed. There's nothing I can save from it. And I'm back in my kitchen.

Jenn Kamp [02:05:16] I'm looking out the window and the sky is blue. It's a beautiful day. And my neighbor kids are still playing. And everything looks the same, but everything is so different in my mind. And I know, like, it's never going to be the same again.

Maven [02:05:33] But I was surprisingly okay. I was not emotional. And as you can see throughout the course of this interview, am emotional.

Jenn Kamp [02:05:40] It's very easy for me to cry.

Maven [02:05:41] And so for a while, I was really surprised that I'm standing there and I am fine. You know, I was like, wow, this is. I mean, it's kind of a big deal.

Jenn Kamp [02:05:47] I kind of.

Maven [02:05:48] I kind of feel like I should

Jenn Kamp [02:05:49] be emotional about it.

Maven [02:05:50] But then I just start, I don't know, a weird overreaction. I'm like, no, I don't. I don't need to cry about this. I believe something that wasn't true for 30 plus years of my life. But, like, you know, some people find out when they're older, some people never do. I. I'm lucky.

Jenn Kamp [02:06:06] This is good. This is good.

Maven [02:06:07] This is fine. I. I have, like, made drastic changes in my life before, and this is no different. I just move forward. This is not something to cry about. Because now I don't believe in something not true anymore. I am fine. Everything's fine. I'm fine. I'm fine, John, I'm fine. It's fine. I don't. I don't need to cry about it. Why would I cry about it? I'm fine. Just fine. And I say that out loud, like, for quite a while. And I was fine for like a couple weeks. And it just. It happened to be Christmas Day. So maybe that's why I'm sitting at home I finally break down and I start just sobbing, you know, I finally

Jenn Kamp [02:06:51] feel the loss of it my whole life, you know,

Maven [02:06:59] I mean, and not

Jenn Kamp [02:07:00] just that, but like, everything I've ever done, everything I've tried to be, everything I've tried to do has all been informed by the church, you know, so, like, I. I don't even know who I am, you know, who am I without the church? Is there anything that's mine? And it took a while, but, I mean, at that moment, I thought I could only think of two things. First of all, I thought of Jiu Jitsu, because I had started taking a couple classes, and I was like, that has nothing to do with the church,

Maven [02:07:32] so that's something that can be mine.

Jenn Kamp [02:07:34] And then I really like the LGBTQ issues. I want to be an advocate.

Maven [02:07:38] I know that these people deserve love.

Jenn Kamp [02:07:41] I know they deserve to be married to who they love.

Maven [02:07:44] And that's definitely not the churches. So that is something that's mine too. And then over time, I've been able to build and add to that. So I still don't read, like, any kind of anti Mormon stuff because, I

Jenn Kamp [02:07:55] mean, why do I need to. I just.

Maven [02:07:58] Which is kind of funny when people leave the church and especially if they are, you know, atheists, like, I am now the phrase, like, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, like, I get told that all the time and I have to tell people, like, guys like Mormonism, that's the baby that's had to be thrown out with the bathwater for me.

John Dehlin [02:08:16] So, Jen, are you having some feels you want to share?

Jenn Kamp [02:08:24] Sorry, no, I just. I just have felt that same loss of how she's saying, like, you just. There just comes a day in like a deconstruction from a high demand religion where you just have to fill it. Like, you just. You just feel the loss. You feel the loss and you. You have to. And with the loss comes, you know, the next question, which was the same for me. Well, who am. Who am I? You know, what, Where. Where do I find who I am? Because you're so used to looking outside yourself for someone to tell you who you are or for some book or for some, you know, man to tell you this and it. And you can't find it by doing that. And you've never been taught in the LDS religion, religion to go inside for truth to go inside for, you know, who you are and, you know, for all your strengths and what feels good to you, like, for. For the love for everyone that, like, maven's talking about now. You know, she gave herself the agency, which is funny, the agency to. To go inside herself and. And. And say, you know, no, I love these. These LGBTQIA plus people. I don't think anything's wrong with them. She went inside and. And said, you know, like, am I. Am I less? You know, and. And. And she. And she wasn't. She's not. She's not less in any way for. But. But the church will tell her she is. And it's just. It just breaks my heart because we. No one should feel that way. Like, no one should feel like they're, like, less. No one should be told that. And I don't believe any God, no matter what God you believe in, would ever say that to someone, would ever

John Dehlin [02:11:23] tell them that or want you to feel that way.

Jenn Kamp [02:11:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:11:27] It's kind of like going into the. The. The. The interaction with the bishop around welfare, but feeling that way about your entire life.

Maven [02:11:35] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:11:36] Yeah.

Maven [02:11:37] You're allowed to go inside yourself, but only as long as it agrees with the brethren, you know, so if there's anything that you come to inside yourself that does not, you have to.

Jenn Kamp [02:11:46] Well, and that's truly not going inside yourself. Right. And the other thing that Maven said, that I just have to say this again because this. I've never thought of it that this way. And, like, it made me, like, you put words to, like, a feeling in me that I've had forever, like, in the church. And I just want to say I actually had to go back to your timeline because I wanted to see exactly what you said, but you said,

Maven [02:12:16] I

Jenn Kamp [02:12:16] truly felt the unfairness of my body being a man's only appropriate, improved lifetime sexual outlet. My body doesn't feel like mine. Why does the highest heaven depend on this? Why would God make it this way? Thank you, Maven, because that is exactly what I think. Almost every woman who. At least maybe every woman who goes through a faith transition, transition, like, starts to realize that that's like the patriarchy taught us that, like, that we're not like an individual person. Like, we can't be enough individually and as a woman, like. And it's just like putting the words to that was beautiful. And I just want to thank you.

Maven [02:13:16] You for that.

Jenn Kamp [02:13:17] I think that that's very beautiful.

Maven [02:13:19] I want to say, like, the opposite is true too, you know, And I think always the assumption is, is that men always want sex, so it's fine for them, and if women don't. But that's not always true either. So it is also Just as unfair. And even if both people are into it and they're. And they're not feeling this conflict, it is still underlying there. If one or both of them ends up having less libido or, or having some changes, it. It is the rule whether you feel the pain of it initially or not

Jenn Kamp [02:13:50] or recognize it well and even in. But they even teach it in an eternal realm. Like when you're, when you get to heaven and you have this eternal family now. Like the only, the only thing that's the woman's job in an eternal realm is like producing spirit children. And that's what she does for eternity.

Maven [02:14:18] Sex.

Jenn Kamp [02:14:19] And why, why, why God, you know, does everything else, like that's, like, that's her whole purpose is just as hard. It's hard. It's hard. But I think your words were beautifully put too in an eternal perspective on that is what I was thinking. And then also an earthly perspective for those that are believing.

Maven [02:14:46] So going off of that.

John Dehlin [02:14:49] Thanks, Jen.

Maven [02:14:50] Yes, thank you. Real quick. So I. So with Mormonism live, I'm behind the scenes most of the time. I had like an unmasking up episode. It's like a short version of this. And then the other episode I did that I get the most, I guess comments on that has helped the most people is when I actually I kind of co hosted with another woman. Her name was Nicole. And we're both very similar in age and we. And this whole episode was just kind of like the, the two sides of us following the churches. Either I'm, I'm a single woman. She did, she got married, she had children. This is, is one that a lot of people really like. And you know, and RFM and Bill really did stay out of it a lot. And RFM just shared one story of a woman that he knew, but it was mostly just us gals talking about it. But one of the things he said is it just occurs to me that like with men in the church, every avenue is open but one. And for women, only one avenue is really the right one. And that's, you know, the motherhood. And I, upon thinking about it, actually take it almost even further. There's one thing that men cannot not do, and that is to bear. That is to grow and carry a child and bear them and bring a new life into the world. And so it just seems like they have made that one thing that they can't do, the entirety of our creation and the entirety of our purpose and all that we are good for. And I just, I wonder if that's why that's the thing they can't do. That's the only thing we can do to the detriment of a lot of women in the church.

John Dehlin [02:16:32] But yeah, powerful.

Jenn Kamp [02:16:33] That's powerful.

Maven [02:16:34] So I'm trying to think and this actually goes in like even more. I. It was at one point I finally feel like I, I don't like the idea of avoiding information or avoiding things. So I decided to go ahead and, and read the CES letter and start learning about like the Mormon specific, specific stuff. And then that's where I get really upset again. And maybe this is kind of, maybe the startup maven. I. There's a lot of things that were kind of shocking to me that I thought I knew all the problems. I kind of laugh when I hear people say I know all the problems.

Jenn Kamp [02:17:03] Right.

Maven [02:17:04] I was definitely one of those people. I knew about Helen Mar Kimball, but I never read her words or looked into her like very much. And so when I read her words, and this was one where I didn't just read what the CES letter said. I, I went into the journals, I read the whole thing and she was

John Dehlin [02:17:20] the 14 year old Joseph Smith.

Maven [02:17:21] She was the 14 year old bride of Joseph Smith. And she was the one like even though I knew about, I would try to before think like maybe she was a really mature 14 year old and maybe she was fine with it, you know, but when you read it, like she's not fine with it. You know, she says like her childhood is taken from her.

John Dehlin [02:17:35] You know, we've got a Mormon Stories episode about that week. Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:17:40] And it just takes me back to when I was like 14 or 15. I'm in Apple Valley. I'm literally right next door to the flds.

Maven [02:17:49] I see them all the time in Southern Utah.

Jenn Kamp [02:17:51] I'm remembering the time that I'm doing these scrupulosity tests with myself in my mind. Would I do this?

Maven [02:17:58] You know, what if I, what if polygamy came back? What if I had to marry an old man? What if I had to be sexual?

Jenn Kamp [02:18:03] Like, you know what?

Maven [02:18:03] And I, and I think through that

Jenn Kamp [02:18:06] time I trust the prophet.

Maven [02:18:08] And so if I was asked to do that, I would do that.

Jenn Kamp [02:18:10] And so I just, I just see myself in Helen Mark Kimmel and I just feel like I'm so lucky that I really escaped that fate. But she didn't, you know, and it was miserable her whole life. And members of the church want to

Maven [02:18:27] point out like that she was an

Jenn Kamp [02:18:29] advocate for polygamy, but. She was an advocate, but she was Miserable.

Maven [02:18:34] And she was very clear that she didn't like it, but she thought that it was what God wanted. And honestly, the advocacy, it makes sense to me because I get this is a part of her story that people don't know, and I don't remember the episode you did, so I don't know if this is talked about, but she got really sick. She was really, really sick. She's on death's door. And when you have somebody who's really,

Jenn Kamp [02:18:55] really religious, you know, and feels that

Maven [02:18:57] God is in control of things like this and they are that sick, it's.

Jenn Kamp [02:19:01] It's understandable.

Maven [02:19:02] It's natural to think that they would wonder, you know, and, well, first of all, be asking for God to fix it, to help and to wonder if there's something that, that they've done wrong

Jenn Kamp [02:19:11] to, to deserve what they're getting.

Maven [02:19:14] And what could Helen Mark Kimball have done wrong?

Jenn Kamp [02:19:17] What's the thing she's most upset about?

Maven [02:19:19] She's still very young at this point.

Jenn Kamp [02:19:21] What is the one thing that she hates the most about her life? It's her marriage to Joseph Smith. So of course it makes sense that if she's feeling like this illness is a punishment from God, what would he be punishing her for? It's that this is how she gets her testimony, testimony, testimony that polygamy is from God. And so she agrees to fall in

Maven [02:19:42] line and she gets better. That's why she's an advocate.

Jenn Kamp [02:19:45] It just, it.

Maven [02:19:47] It could happen to anybody. It's not because she liked it or anything anyway.

John Dehlin [02:19:51] It's also super bad logic because Pick, you know, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Warren Jeffs, Keith Ranieri, Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh. Pick your cult leader. You'll be able to find women who were mistreated who will bear testimony, testimony that, that their cult leaders were of God. Even after everything unravels, even after the house erupts in flames or a ton of people die by chemical suicide, you're always going to be able to find survivors who, who retain belief in the cult leader. So it's just a bad argument.

Jenn Kamp [02:20:25] Agreed. The. The other one that comes to my mind is Elizabeth Smart, and she was also 14 years old, and it took her captor less than 2, 9 months to make her believe and act. And, and Brian David Mitchell. Yeah, and speak up for him and defend him. Less than nine months for the same

Grief, Loss of a Sister, and Processing the Transition

John Dehlin [02:20:47] age girl means nothing.

Jenn Kamp [02:20:50] Yeah.

Maven [02:20:51] Yeah. I, I feel like this is something that really gets me, that I, I feel like I'm hearing some apologists say more or even, like, people say to me, like, well, let's listen to the. The women. The reason why this makes me mad is because, first of all, the women's stories have been silent. They do not. We've had these presidents of the church manuals, right? Like, they, they never bring them up. You really have to go digging to find what they say. And here's the thing. They don't want you to listen to everything they say, because so many of these women, Helen Mark Kimble, Lucy Walker, they, they. It's clearly there that they're upset that. That they're just. It's not just upset, but they're sickened. They're sickened by these proposals initially. It goes against everything that they believe in, that they think. And the thing when apologists want to say, like, to people like us or say, like, listen to the women, they don't want you to listen to those parts. They want you to listen to the testimony that they got at the end. They want you to ignore the very clear coercion. I, Lucy Walker says Joseph Smith tells her, like, look, this is God's will. And if you're not going to fall in line, like, I don't know what to say for you, like, the door was. The gates of heaven are going to close against you. This is something he says to her. But they don't want you to, like, think of. They ignore that part. She had a spiritual experience, so that means it was from God. So all the other coercion doesn't matter. This is the part that they want to listen. Or when it's modern stuff. They want you to listen to women in the church who are spouting what the men say. And I was one of those women, and. And now I'm not. And they don't want to listen to me because I'm on the outside now. I've had a man tell me I should listen to women in the church to see how they feel, even though I'm telling you I am a woman. I was a woman in the church, and we are. It's not okay to go against the brethren. It's not okay to really have your own voice. So listening to them, it could be their real opinion. No one can ever know, because that's the only okay opinion to share. Anyway. That's. This is one thing that just gets me when they say, yeah, listen to Helen Mark Kimball. She was fine with it. She wasn't. So this is where I really start feeling. And this is also where I'm starting to really see how I was harmed because at first I thought, even though I don't know who I am, at first I thought like my mission was okay. I didn't have any, any major, like, awful. I wasn't sexually abused by a bishop. Like, I. A lot of awful things I'm hearing, I don't have any of these things. It takes me a while to realize how much of my voice, how much of my options, just how much of myself that I gave away for the church. And, and this is where actually I find Mormon stories. I start with the top 25, and there's just so many that helped. And I really like the, the long form version of it. I know, like, there's jokes about it and initially when I was having my unmasking, I had too many things I want to go over. And so RFM me made the joke like, this isn't Mormon stories. Like, we got to shorten it down like this. Our show is just one hour. But anyway, sorry, my voice is getting really high because it's strained. But anyway, as I. Oh, I. I forgot where I was going with that. I'm sorry. Oh, the long form, it was helpful to me because I, again, like most of the people I personally knew who left the church, I. I didn't know or wasn't sure that they were as in it as I was. So to be able to see. See people really, really in it and to get the whole background, I really start feeling less alone. And so, yeah, so this was really helpful to me at that time. And this is one thing though. Even though I do feel like a desire to do something, I want to talk about it. I want to point out the harm. I want to. Because I'm still quiet. I still. My family doesn't know. I feel alone. I don't have a lot of people to talk to. So I make some posts on Reddit. That's about the best I can do as far as sharing. But I also realize, like, a lot of people get over it within a year or two. It's that first year is the hardest, you know, and a lot of people move on after that point and maybe it takes an extra year, but a lot of people move on at that point. So I kind of assumed that I'm going to move on. So initially I don't tell my family. I'm not sure how to do it. I keep quiet for almost a year and at this point, not much has changed. I feel better in a lot of ways that I don't believe in the church anymore. It's False. I'm free from a lot of this dogma and entire indoctrination, but my life is exactly in every other way. It's basically the same until there's a, an unexpected death in the family. It's my extended family. And this kind of. I, I was wanting to maybe come out around this time, but this kind of forced me back under because it was just really bad timing. But it also kind of really fueled the idea that, like, I got to change things in my life and I, I think I got to start saying something. But this person, she's only 23 years old and she was, she was nine

Jenn Kamp [02:25:50] weeks pregnant and she died of a pulmonary embolism. It was a complication from the pregnancy,

Maven [02:25:58] a very common one. But it wasn't just that because the whole pregnancy was extremely, extremely difficult. She'd already had some, you know, some scares. She'd been to the er. They were starting to like, talk about some treatments of having a nurse come over once a week to do something for her. It was a really, really tough pregnancy from the get go.

Jenn Kamp [02:26:20] I helped make a memory video for her funeral.

Maven [02:26:24] So I, I'm getting all these video

Jenn Kamp [02:26:25] clips of her and pictures of her and, and she beautiful and she was full of just vibrancy in life. And I feel like she, I mean, she's also, of course, Mormon, but I

Maven [02:26:37] think she was able to live a bit more of an authentic life that

Jenn Kamp [02:26:40] I was able to, you know, at this point. But I just can't help but just keep thinking about her. And even though I hadn't met her very many times, I still, I still get really emotional when I just, when I think about this, because it was just really tragic and it was really unreal. Expected. Nobody saw this coming, of course, you know, but I wonder, I just wonder because I know she was raised like I was raised and we were both good Mormon girls. And when you are married, good Mormon girls don't put off having children. You, you have children and you don't. You have as many as you feel like you're supposed to. This is our purpose for existing. Going back to what we said before, like, this one thing men can't do, this is what we, we are supposed to do. And I just, I just can't help but wonder, you know, if it wasn't for that, would she have like, with the health issues she had, would she have chosen to wait longer? Would she have chosen not to at all? Or if she was and things were going this badly, maybe, would she have had the choice to try to end it out of concern for her life. You know, I'm. I just wonder if she wasn't morbid, would she still be here? Would we still have her? You know, and you can't ever know for sure. Things happen, you know, I just. It just hurts, though, to know, you know, that this is. I just don't think she really had that much of a choice. Because of the belief system and, and the messaging for women around pregnancy, like, even for health reasons, it's viewed as being really selfish if you don't want to have children, you know, or, like, it's just. You're just trying to avoid discomfort or inconvenience. It's just never really talked about that. It's your life on the line. And it was right after this that Elder Anderson gave his talk in conference that was like, you know, I mean,

Maven [02:28:43] first of all, against abortion, but also, like, telling women to have more children, right?

Jenn Kamp [02:28:47] And he tells a story specifically of a woman that had difficult pregnancies, right?

Maven [02:28:52] But felt an impression that she should have another kid.

Jenn Kamp [02:28:55] And so. So she does.

Maven [02:28:56] She has a very difficult pregnancy, but

Jenn Kamp [02:28:58] they get this beautiful girl, and in

Maven [02:29:01] the hospital, she gets another prompting that there should be another one so that she has another. This is her sixth now extremely difficult pregnancy, but then they have another beautiful girl, and now their heavenly family is

Jenn Kamp [02:29:12] complete thanks to her listening to, you know, these promptings. And I just. It just made me so angry because I just that, you know, Elder Anderson is never going to tell a story like ours. He's never going to talk about somebody who died. You know, it's just always told as, like, this, you know, like, have faith kind of a thing. And again, I feel like this story. I feel like he specifically picked this story with this woman with difficult pregnancies to give the message that if you've had difficult pregnancies or if you think you will because of health issues, issues that you have, that that is not a good excuse, you know, or that it is. It's an excuse. Your. Your health, your comfort, your discomfort. Like, these are selfish reasons not to have children. And here's a faithful woman who, you know, who went through willingly this discomfort to bring children into the world. It's just so unfair that your own health is just a convenience for you. You know, this is the messaging, like, around children.

Jenn Kamp [02:30:19] We're just.

Jenn Kamp [02:30:21] It just. We're never really in charge of our bodies. And I mean, even the episode I did with Nicole, this was one thing she said she had children before she was really, really ready because she felt like she was supposed to. And Jordan and McKay, their episode. And when she talks about her birth story, it's. It was really horrible. I just. I felt for her so much, and I just. And she also did it because she felt pressured that she's supposed to have children. And, you know, she just. All these awful things happened to her. I just. That, you know, and they could happen to anybody. But it just makes it sad when it's because you're feeling obligated to and

Maven [02:31:02] you're being told to.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:04] And I just feel like once. Once a woman is pregnant. Like, I mean. I mean, not even just then, but before. Like, we are objects.

Maven [02:31:13] Our bodies are objects. And when we're pregnant, like, quite literally, we're a vessel.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:21] We're an object holding something else. And it's a potential life. It's not a life yet. It could be, but it's already worth more than the living human being who's here, who has it. It just. It. I just don't get why it matters more, you know? And you know what? She had a beautiful funeral. She was praised for this ultimate sacrifice that she paid to attempt to bring a child into the world. You know, Nobody misses that baby. We never even found out. It wasn't big enough to even see what gender it was have been. It's. It's a tragedy on top of the loss of her. She's the real tragedy. You know, she's who we miss. She was a living, beautiful human being. She had a husband who loved her. She had siblings who loved her parents. She was important. Anyway, I just. It was just. It's just still really difficult for me to think about sometimes just how callous, like, some people could be about it. And I mean, I. Even at one point, it took me a long time to get up the courage, but I'm just remembering the messaging that I was raised with, you know, like, abortions are for women who don't

Maven [02:32:59] want the inconvenience of children.

Jenn Kamp [02:33:01] You know, like, it's just this big selfish thing.

Maven [02:33:04] And not only that, but, like, you know, the church. In the handbook, it allows for a termination of a pregnancy if your life is on the line. But that's not always something that you can know.

Jenn Kamp [02:33:15] Doctors don't always.

Maven [02:33:17] If they knew, they would have said something, you know, but until then, it's just a difficult pregnancy. And that's not a good enough excuse for her to say anything. And even in the handbook, like, I looked this up. If a woman does want to terminate a pregnancy, she's got to get permission from the bishop. She's got to get permission from her husband. They've got to pray. Everyone has to feel like God is giving permission, and they need that physician. That's the only wild card that might be a female in this, is that a competent physician is saying that, you know, her life is on the line, or that maybe the fetus is not going to be viable ever, that the woman just doesn't even matter, but you have to have at least three or four men deciding that it's okay on her behalf. And it just. It just sickens me that, like, we can't even know, you know, or even be believed if we. If we are concerned. But I asked my dad, you know, if something like this had happened to

Jenn Kamp [02:34:18] me, like, would he.

Maven [02:34:20] And I said, like, if I said, I'm concerned, this is going badly, I think I'm gonna choose to end this pregnancy. Like, would you be okay with that?

Jenn Kamp [02:34:28] Which.

Maven [02:34:29] Or would you want.

Jenn Kamp [02:34:30] Want me to just, you know, the

Maven [02:34:33] same fate, you know, not knowing ahead of time.

Jenn Kamp [02:34:35] And he said that he would trust

Maven [02:34:37] me on that, which I really want to believe that he would also have said that before, but it's kind of. I don't know if it really says much, but when you're already touched by tragedy to actually allow that this time. But even then, he just kind of gave, like, the inconvenience line, which I just. Thinking, like, man, just. Even the idea. Idea of a parent wanting a child or just wanting a child to have a parent that wants them is such a low bar, but it still can't be cleared by so many people that they can't even meet that. Anyway, this was a really tragic time. And I just. I mean, like, both deaths do. It just really drives home the idea that life is really short. And I. I'm still not myself. I'm still.

Jenn Kamp [02:35:21] Still hiding.

Maven [02:35:22] I'm still just pretending. And like, nothing's really different in my life. I'm still here, but I need. I need to do something. So I start making changes. I don't know if. Was there a thought or we could.

John Dehlin [02:35:37] It's beautiful. I mean, I. When my BYU roommate was killed on his mission, it. It's not abortion. It's not a woman. It's. You know, it's not a pregnant mother who dies. But it's just. Well, if he. If. If he had known everything, would he have chosen to go on a mission? And if he had, would. Would we have Monty McCotter today? I. I had a very similar experience where it's like this isn't just beliefs, it isn't just thoughts. It isn't just doctrine or theology. It's like lives are at stake.

Jenn Kamp [02:36:11] Right.

John Dehlin [02:36:11] Yeah. I don't mean to minimize or say me too, but I'm just, I relate to, to that feeling.

Maven [02:36:17] No, I, I understand. Because you have to wonder if it, I mean, if it weren't for the church that people would still be here, you know, and it's one thing to deal with when you know and you believe that the church is true, but when you find out all these things that you didn't know and you don't believe it's true anymore, it just makes it all the more.

Jenn Kamp [02:36:40] Tricky.

Jenn Kamp [02:36:40] Tragic. Yeah, because it's, it's all for a lie, you know, it's, yeah, it's uninformed and it's, yeah, it just makes it tragic. But at this point, I mean, and

Maven [02:36:55] of course they, I mean, I keep low for a while.

Jenn Kamp [02:36:58] I'm obviously not going to be like, I'm an atheist at the funeral, you know, So I just, I play my part and I listen and I listen

Maven [02:37:06] to the person say, if you're not living your life right, because she's up

Jenn Kamp [02:37:09] there and she's with the baby and if you want to see them again. Just another thing that just like the church can co opt tragedy like this to really like keep people in and paying that tithing and doing that work and being on the hamster wheel like forever when somebody is really tragically taken from you unexpectedly. I just, I understand that, you know, but I just feel very sad about it. But anyway, this is something that just still lives with me and lived with me for a while.

Maven [02:37:38] But after that I, I start making some changes. This is where like my brother and I move into a house together instead of renting. It's financially better for both of us and our families. I, I get diagnosed with ADHD finally. So I start learning and implementing methods to management or manage it. And then I finally like, I really do realize now God's not going to, going to tell me what career to have. This is something I have to decide for myself. And because it's been so difficult and now that I know I have adhd, I work with an ADHD specific career coach and she helps me realize I have a passion for creativity, like through production and teaching. And so I start kind of pursuing that on the side. I'm fitting in classes as I can about podcast production, audio editing. I still have a long way to go with that, but, but, and she also helped me realize I still had, even though time is passing and I'm not over it yet, a voice and a passion. I want to talk about the church. I want to talk about its effects on me and its effects on other people as well. It's not going away. And then I start. I start working out more, eating even more healthier. I'm starting to love my body, and I'm one of those people. Like, I've lost £25, just about, you know, and it's just.

John Dehlin [02:38:56] Faith crisis diet.

Maven [02:38:57] Yeah, it's just easier. I didn't realize until the burden was gone just how much of a burden a lot of the doctrines were. And in a way, preventing myself from really truly loving myself and taking care of myself and also just, like, allowing myself to, like, take up space. I had tried to go to the gyms, like, before, but I always felt that I didn't belong there. And if someone wanted. If I felt like someone wanted to use a machine, I would give. Get off of it. So now I just, you know, just a completely different experience there. Like, if I'm at the gym, I don't feel like I can talk to people. I can ask if they're going to be done with equipment. These are really little things that I just couldn't have done before. But anyway, so from this, I joined Mormonism Live. I would watch these episodes. Bill would sometimes ask for help at the end of the show for technical issues and before. I always assume, assume, like, there's somebody else out there, someone else will help. Somebody else knows more than I do. And there's. I guess, just one day, something was different for me. Bill asks for help, and I don't know the answer, but I decide I'm gonna figure it out, and I am gonna be the one to help. So that's where things start. From there, I do the research. I present it to Bill. I do end up on the show. I'm still. My family doesn't know. So I'm apprehensive about being named or even mentioned at first that I was even there. But Bill insisted at least mentioning that there was someone helping Time. And it was, I think, a commenter from that episode that's responsible, like, for Maven, for how the name came to be. He called me a tech maven, which I am definitely not, but said something like, I. I need a. A name. You know, a. A nom de plume. I guess he said nom to keyboard, which I thought was kind of funny. But I. Maven. I liked the idea of Maven. And so that's how, that's how Maven the name really literally came to be. And then after a few months I realized like I, I, I am starting to have a presence. I am starting to have a voice here. I need to come out to my family. And so I do. I actually did it by video because I didn't want to do it in person because I know how that can go really bad. But I also didn't want to do a letter because a lot of nuance can be lost. So I felt like it's kind of best of both worlds to do a video and I kind of hit him with like a three hit combo. Like I'm leaving the church, not leaving it alone. And I'm asexual by the way. I'm in the LGBT uia, so I do it, I do all three at once. And I wanted to acknowledge like I know what people say about people who leave and I just, I want to say for myself that I, it's that I do not believe the church is true and that is really, really the reason. And if they want to talk about it, that it has to be a two way conversation. Just from past experience I suspected that they would maybe want to try to just send me things one way. And I, I can't say anything back. And so so far it's been pretty much radio silence. I mean they initially said like we still love you. So that was really great. But I'm still kind of waiting and maybe still am waiting for the other shoe to drop. I had a little bit of conflict with my mom because she was, she was asking me about what like she, she garment checked me a couple times. Overall, throughout this time I am still actually wearing garments quite a bit because I live with the leaving family and I'm not ready to come out. So I am still wearing them to kind of keep up appearances most of the time. But there are a few times I didn't. My mom clocked me on those and so she was asking me when did I stop wearing garments. And then especially with the asexuality, one of the reasons I didn't want to talk about it is because I thought my family won't understand and they will just think that I'm a lesbian and I'm not willing to admit it. So I'm just kind of doing this like weird in between route or something. And that's kind of what was happening with my mom. She was asking me if I was sexually active and I didn't answer her directly. I asked if she was sexually Active, just to kind of like, try to give the hint. Like, maybe some families are open and can talk about these things, but our family never has been. It was an appropriate question, and so that's why I just asked it back instead of answering. But she. She just said, like, yes, I am. I'm married. I was just wondering about you, but not anymore. And I just. I didn't even answer that. You know, it just doesn't matter to me, like, whether she's accurate or not anymore, because she has this idea. And I was. I was talking to RFM about it, just kind of complaining a little bit. And he made a really cogent observation. And he just said, you know, when somebody. When somebody dies, we want to know why. It's just like this inherent human thing. We want to know why. We want to know if it's something that can affect us or not, or if we're safe from it. He says, it's occurring to me that your mother is not asking these questions to be annoying or to be disrespectful, respectful to you, but in essence, she's asking you, how did you die spiritually? How is it, like, did this happen to you? And it just made a lot of sense to me. And RFM is like, full of really great things like that sometimes. So, like, yeah, that was just one of the things. And then both my brothers, I think they don't get it. One has been out of the church his entire adult life, but I think maybe just as a male, it's just a different thing than as a female. Growing up, there's so control over everything. But because one of them, the one that. That's still a believer, he was like, so, okay, now that you're not a member, what are you going to do? Like, wear tank tops and drink coffee? And then my other brother, who's been out, he was like, what do you want to do? Like, drink beer and go to a strip club? It was a really similar comment from both of them. And it just kind of showed me. I think they just don't get the. The freedom of mind and body a woman has when she leaves the church. So anyway, so they. They know that I have a pseudonym. They know I'm kind of out there. As far as they know, they haven't found me. I. If they. If they find me, if they know, they know, and that's fine. I'm just not going to give it to them. But that's it. The rest is history. That is Maimon. I guess I feel like I'm Kind of ending this really sadly, because I. But I want to say. And I know this is the thing that, like, you can't believe if you're a member, but I really am happier than I've ever been before. I feel lighter. I like to dance, just. Even in my house. Just listening to music, just doing chores, just. There's so many ways that life is better. And, yes, I am still wrapped up in the church. I'm still in a space where I want to talk about it, because it. I feel like it hurts people, and it's still hurting people. And so it's not something that. I mean, it is sad to talk about, but it's also very fulfilling. And I. I just want to make people's lives better. And so to me, that's worth it.

John Dehlin [02:45:25] It's.

Maven [02:45:26] It's not a thing that I'm just angry and negative and I'm wrapped up in it, you know? Like, I. And there's a lot more to my life than just that, than just Maven. But. Yeah. But I feel optimistic about my future. And I wouldn't go back. I would never go back.

John Dehlin [02:45:47] And if I. If I think back to this theme of just the bishop storehouse, the welfare thing, feeling awful. Not just there, but, like, as. As an asexual person, as a single person in the church, as a single woman in the church, just always feeling like there's something wrong with you. Always feeling like you're broken, like you're defective, like you don't fit the plan. How can you not lose 25 pounds and feel better than you've ever felt before?

Maven [02:46:14] Right.

John Dehlin [02:46:14] To leave that behind.

Maven [02:46:16] Yeah. Or like I. Like I was trying to say with the gym, which I feel like I kind of butchered, but just feeling like I deserve to be in a space, you know, just even, like, out in public, if I'm using a machine and someone wants it and I'm not done, I don't have to give it up for them. I deserve to be here. I deserve to finish my set and then someone else can have it. Simple stuff like that. I just could not do that before. I would have felt like I'm imposing on somebody, especially if it was a guy. Like, this is a gym guy. This is his space. I'm an imposter. Right. I don't believe belong here. Just stuff like that. It's just a complete different mindset. I deserve to be here.

John Dehlin [02:46:54] When I think of you looking at the cake mix, like, do I take the cake mix or not? I'm like, take the cake Mix. Nathan, you deserve the cake.

Maven [02:47:02] Yes, if I want it.

Jenn Kamp [02:47:04] Absolutely.

Maven [02:47:07] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:47:08] Jen, you want to add anything?

Jenn Kamp [02:47:11] No, I'm just proud of her. I'm just proud of her for taking up space. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:47:24] All right, Maven. Well, we. Jen and I both have things we have to go to that I think I would want to do, like, 30. 30 minutes more least, of, like, processing and deconstructing.

Maven [02:47:35] I'm ready to decompress.

John Dehlin [02:47:37] You got through your eyes line, but it was beautiful and emotional and moving,

Jenn Kamp [02:47:42] and it was worth so many good words.

John Dehlin [02:47:44] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:47:44] So many good words.

John Dehlin [02:47:45] Yeah. And I hope, like, I. I'll just say to end that, you know, I saw that someone was helping Bill and RFM out, and I'm excited. And then I actually, you know, started seeing your comments come in on Mormon Stories episodes, and then I get to meet you, and I'm like, man, we need. We need more Maven.

Jenn Kamp [02:48:04] I know, right?

John Dehlin [02:48:06] Space. How would there be a Maven cast? Like, you have your own podcast. Right.

Maven [02:48:10] I'm having a lot of people encouraging me. I think maybe there's still some fears and things maybe I need to work through about it, but I'm trying. I definitely have a lot of ideas, but, yeah, I. I will let you know. I'm sure I can. I can count on your support.

John Dehlin [02:48:27] Absolutely. Well, we're glad you're taking up space. We're glad you're in our space. Space. It's delightful to know you. We're happy to know you exist, and we are happy that you're happier and healthier. And I think Jen will join me in just being super excited, hoping that you'll stay with us in whatever way you can. And we're excited to contemplate what you might do with your knowledge and power and wisdom and sensitivity and thoughtfulness and courage. Courage and all those things. Right, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [02:49:00] Yeah, I'm excited.

John Dehlin [02:49:02] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:49:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:03] What's next? What's next for me?

Jenn Kamp [02:49:05] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:49:07] All right, Maven, thank you.

Maven [02:49:09] Thanks for letting me be here.

John Dehlin [02:49:11] Come back again, will you?

Maven [02:49:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:49:13] All right.

Jenn Kamp [02:49:14] Whatever you say.

John Dehlin [02:49:15] All right. And, Jen, thanks for being here today. It's great to have you.

Jenn Kamp [02:49:20] Yeah, it was great.

Maven [02:49:21] It's always great to have you on. On the show.

Jenn Kamp [02:49:23] A.

Jenn Kamp [02:49:24] And.

Maven [02:49:25] And your interjections are always really great, so.

Jenn Kamp [02:49:27] You're so sweet. Thank you. Yep. Maven's amazing.

John Dehlin [02:49:32] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:49:32] Pretty much love her. I knew this was going to be my favorite episode from her. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:38] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:49:38] But they're all good, so go back and watch them all. But I'm Yeah, I love that I got to know you better and I can't wait to see what you do next.

Maven [02:49:48] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:49:49] Also want to say I added, I added you. You have a list in your outline of some of your favorite Mormon Stories podcast episodes. And just to be really clear, I'm including those in the show notes and just be really clear. That's never to be self referential. It's never to bring attention to me or to the podcast. It's because I always ask that question because if, if Maven's awesome and you know, Donna Showalter's episode or Robert Ritter's episode or Lila Tuller's episode or Michael Koh or Thomas Murphy or Jennifer Blackwell or David Bacavoi or Natasha over Parker, if they were instrumental to helping Maven process things, I ask about that stuff so that you, the listener, can go back and check those episodes out because maybe they'll be helpful or useful to you as well. So we'll be including those in the show notes for your benefit, not for any other reason. All right. Thanks again, Maven.

Maven [02:50:49] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:50:49] Thanks, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [02:50:50] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:50:51] And thanks for joining us in Mormon Stories today. Support us if you can, but also support Mormonism live. Support Radio Free Mormon. We love Bill, we love Radio Free Mormon, and we thank them for bringing Maven to us as well. And thanks to everyone who keeps Mormon Stories alive. Support us if you can. Thanks, Jen. Thanks, everybody. And we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.