Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 1013

David Bokovoy [00:00:08] Don't know why I can't feel the

John Dehlin [00:00:10] morning

David Bokovoy [00:00:12] don't know why I can't feel the dawn Everything inside me is lonesome But I don't feel nothing at all I don't feel nothing at all I got a wild A wild, wild heart

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

David Bokovoy [00:01:06] Don't know why you want me gone Everything inside of me is lonesome I don't feel nothing at all I don't feel nothing at all I got a wild A wild, wild.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 16, 2018, and today we are interviewing someone who I've wanted to interview for many, many, many years. I've been very patient on this one.

David Bokovoy [00:01:42] Yes, you.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] Very, very patient on this one. His name is David Bachavoy. David Bachavoy is one of Mormonism's leading Bible scholars. Specifically, you know, I think of him as being primarily a scholar of the Old Testament, but that's not true. He does all sorts of work. New Testament. David has a master's from Brandeis University in Jewish Studies and a PhD in Hebrew Bible and the Ancient Near East. He studied under David Wright, who was a bible scholar at BYU who got excommunicated around the time of the September 6th, or maybe a little bit after.

David Bokovoy [00:02:19] Right after that.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Yeah, someone that we forget when we often talk about, you know, Cecilia Farr and Gail Houston and September 6th. But he studied under David Wright at Brandeis. He worked for the LDS Church education, education system for 18 years. He was the chaplain at Harvard University, the Mormon chaplain. He taught LDS Institute at Harvard, Wellesley and mit. We should talk about the altitude. Did you ever get invited to the Altitude? Do you even know what that was?

David Bokovoy [00:02:51] I don't.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] We'll talk about that. Okay. Dave is the author of two books and the one that we'll be digging into today is called Authoring the Old Testament Genesis through Deuteronomy. And he is, interestingly, one of the co founders of the Mormon Interpreter with Daniel C. Peterson.

David Bokovoy [00:03:14] Okay. We'll have to talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] We'll have to talk about that. But I had to throw that in here. But he's also just a great guy, very well respected, and he's got an epic journey, in my view. You know, it's rare on Mormon stories to be able to bring someone on who's a scholar at the same level of, in my opinion, Michael Quinn or Brett Metcalf, Phil Barlow, whoever you want to add as a Richard Bushman, as a true Mormon scholar. David Bacavoy is one. And again, I've wanted to have you on for so long. So, David Bacavoy, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

David Bokovoy [00:03:51] Thank you so much, John. It's a thrill to be with you and to be able to share my story with our community. I'm really grateful for the opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] Welcome to everyone who's joining us on Facebook Live. Let me explain how this is going to go. We're going to do two clusters of an interview. So the first cluster is going to be just David's Mormon story. So it'll be released as its own post on Mormon Stories. And it's just going to be kind of that multi hour epic faith journey that we're going to share with David. That will be cluster one. Then we'll probably take a break, maybe grab a lunch, quick lunch, and then we'll come back for the second cluster, which will be applying scholarship, rigorous scholarship or higher criticism as this book calls it, as it's well known in the academic world. Applying higher criticism to Mormon scripture. So we're going to talk about the Old Testament, specifically the Pentateuch. Is that how you pronounce it?

David Bokovoy [00:04:50] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] First five books of the Old Testament. But we're also going to talk about the Book of Moses, the Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon, and just Mormonism in general. To understand how David's work with higher criticism can enlighten us about all that stuff, we're going to get into Mormon apologetics, Mormon scholarship, church history, church transparency. We'll talk about women's issues, LGBT issues. We're going to get to kind of everything but just buckle up. This is one of those epic multi hour Mormon stories journeys.

David Bokovoy [00:05:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] All right. Okay, so anything you want to say before we dig in?

David Bokovoy [00:05:31] No.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Okay. All right, so let's start with your early years. What can you tell us about growing up?

Growing Up as a Hippie Surfer Kid in San Diego

David Bokovoy [00:05:38] So I, I tell people usually that I grew up as a hippie surfer kid in San Diego County. My, my dad actually was a hippie poet. He was a non member of the Church and was drafted, served in Vietnam, came back and met my mother, who was a lifelong member, but she was raised by my wonderful grandmother, who was raised Baptist and at that time not a member of the LDS Church, and my grandfather, who was. Who had a pioneer stock but was very less active throughout his entire life. My mother, when she was young, had a series of really sacred spiritual dreams that left her with a very strong testimony of the truthfulness of Mormonism. As a little girl, she love to go to church. My grandfather would not allow it, but anyway, she would try to go as often as possible. And she recalls as a young girl in primary hearing her teacher say that if she prayed about the Book of Mormon, she could gain a testimony that it was true. And she took that home with, you know, childlike faith and prayed and asked God if the book was true and had a dream where she saw an angel and golden plates and was left as a child with this really strong conviction of the truthfulness of the church. And interesting enough, John, when she recounts that, she says, you know, I was raised by this Baptist mother, and I. My image of angels were, was that they always had wings. And in my dream, this angel did not have wings. And I remember feeling so surprised by this experience. So she felt a strong desire that.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] What did that mean to you that the angel didn't have wings?

David Bokovoy [00:07:26] What did that mean to me or to her? To her, it was a sign of the truthfulness of what she had received, that it was an authentic revelation from God, because, of course, in LDS theology, angels don't have wings. But it left this strong desire in her heart to create a family that was a bit different than the one that she had grown up in, one that would be really orthodox and strongly committed to the church. And so I was raised in a very conservative LDS home there in San Diego.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] So how many siblings?

David Bokovoy [00:08:06] I have three siblings. I'm the oldest. I have a sister and then two brothers.

John Dehlin [00:08:11] And this is in the 80s, primarily. You're kind of in high school.

David Bokovoy [00:08:14] Yeah, I mean, I was born in 1971, so in the 70s and 80s. And.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] Yeah, so I'm assuming the primary and seminary and young men's and young women's and Boy Scouts and all that.

David Bokovoy [00:08:28] Not Boy Scouts.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Scouts.

David Bokovoy [00:08:29] Not Boy Scouts. I was able to escape that, but.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] Okay. And you were surfing as a kid?

David Bokovoy [00:08:34] Yeah, yeah. My. My family has always been really into this. I've got an uncle who's a very famous shaper in Oceanside, California. And. Yeah, that's one of my lifelong passions. Hard to do that here in Utah, but get down there as often as possible.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] And what was your church experience and your faith experience like growing up?

David Bokovoy [00:08:56] So I was, you know, my, my grandparents on my father's side were not LDs as mentioned. He was a convert. And I remember getting into theological discussions with my grandfather and I'd go stay at his house because they lived there in San Diego. My entire family was there locally, which was wonderful. But I'd spend the night with my grandparents on my father's side. And, and I remember one occasion specifically, just as a young boy and I, I remember feeling troubled that my grandparents were not members of the church. I remember being really concerned as a child that they would not be with us in the celestial kingdom. And so I remember having a discussion with my grandfather. We were outside by some orange trees and somehow Joseph Smith topic came up and he was saying some negative things about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I remember as a child saying, well, well granddad, you just need to pray about it. It's a true story. And, and I remember his comment, he said, oh yeah, that's what it is, son. It's a, it's truly a story. It's just that.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] And how old?

David Bokovoy [00:10:08] Oh man, it must have been about 8, 7 or 8 at that time. And I, I remember then praying that night myself in my grandparents house and asking God if is this really true? Is the church really true that I'm being ra. I felt as if the Holy Ghost spoke to me and as a child and said, you know, it's true, why do you keep asking? And so I definitely was religious and very spiritual as a child. As I got older that lessened. None of my friends, especially in high school, were lds. I should take that back. I did have one friend who was lds, but almost all of my friends, you know, this is in the 80s in San Diego and we're into surfing and things like that. And all of, almost all of them used some sort of illegal drug on a, on a bait, on a daily basis.

John Dehlin [00:11:07] And marijuana kind of go together, right?

David Bokovoy [00:11:08] Yeah, I mean, and amongst other things, I mean this was in the 80s, so crystal meth was, oh man. Was really starting to become popular. And I, so I was around a lot of that. I never got involved with hard drugs like that, but I was around it a ton. And you know, as I got older I just kind of, it wasn't so much that I lost faith as much as I just lost interest. I'm a person who deals with obsessive behaviors and when I fall in love with something. It's 110%. And my passions during those years were. Were, as I mentioned, surfing and, and rock and roll and.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Favorite rock bands.

David Bokovoy [00:11:54] Yeah, favorite rock bands, yeah. So favorite singer, songwriter is Bob Dylan, but Bob Marley and. And his son Ziggy Marley are both, even to this day, great spiritual voices in my life. Huge Doors fan. Johnny Cash, Joy division from the 80s. I don't remember those guys. But yeah, Velvet Underground, things like that.

John Dehlin [00:12:17] So new wave, so 60s, 70s.

David Bokovoy [00:12:20] Yeah, I love it. All from the, from the, from the 50s, 60s, 70s. No.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Classic rock. Not one.

David Bokovoy [00:12:26] Okay. I'm Led Zeppelin. Beatles. Not in the 80s. I was, I was into alternative stuff. I wasn't into. Into the R.E.M. yeah. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:37] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:12:38] We can, we can connect on some music. So those were my. I was gonna say those were my passions. So I really lost interest now. My mother.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] In Mormonism.

David Bokovoy [00:12:48] In Mormonism, my mother. It just. I had to go. I had to graduate from early morning seminary. So I did. I had to go to church on Sunday. I did. And that was just an expectation. And I went without much interest.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Okay, so did you. By 17, 18, did you feel like you had a strong testimony?

David Bokovoy [00:13:08] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] In fact, did you have a knowledge of the gospel?

David Bokovoy [00:13:11] Oh, no. By that time in my life, if, if you would have asked me if I had a testimony or if the church was true, I probably would have answered, you know, man, I don't even know if there's a God, let alone, you know, the church is true. But that changed right at the beginning of my senior year of high school. Yeah. Is when that happens. So I had a very good friend of mine and I. I was sitting in an art class, one of the few classes I attended. I was a terrible student in high school.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] Hate terrible student.

David Bokovoy [00:13:43] I hated school. I barely graduated from high school. I. I literally. I literally convinced my counselor at the end to that I needed to be moved into special needs courses just to get through and to get the credits.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Wow. How do you explain that with the PG from Brandeis? Like, you wouldn't think a kid who barely got through high school.

Early Obsessions and Teenage Faith Formation

David Bokovoy [00:14:02] I, I just. I'm a person deals with obsessive behaviors and I just was obsessed with surfing and. And music and there was a room, I guess girls on a little bit, but. But mainly surfing. Yeah. There just wasn't. Wasn't room really in my life for education. It just. I found it boring and something I wasn't interested in. So I seldom went. And I was there one day in an art class and A friend of mine, very close friend, non lds, came up to me and he. Right before class started, and he said, david, I want to thank you. You've always been such a good friend to me. Thank you so much. And it was a very awkward, a very strange vibe. And I said, of course, of course. Yeah, thank you. And he just. Class started, so we walked out and I sat there and I picked up my paintbrush and with this really bad feeling. And so I decided that I would leave class and. And follow him. He didn't know it. I. I followed him. And this is San Diego, so, you know, it's outdoor campuses, right? You know, like at BYU or something, where you have. You walk in between the different buildings. And I followed him from a distance, and he kind of went past some cubicles that were there on campus for extra room for students, and he walked out into open field. And I stood kind of behind there and I watched him take out a knife and prepare to take his own life. And I. I came around and I just. I won't say his name, but I came around and I just said, what are you doing? And I'll never forget the look on his face and what he said. He just said, I'm just tired. And anyway, I helped him get some of the help that he needed at that time, but it left a really. I mean, it's a really dramatic and traumatic way to start one's senior year of high school, which is what happened to me. And I took a serious look at my life, and I thought, you know, I. I don't know if there's a God. I don't know if the church is true that I've been raised in, but I know my parents are really happy, and I know that the people that I go to church with are very happy, and I want that happiness in my life. So I started in the beginning of my senior year then to study the New Testament. I went through the Gospels, and I just fell in love with Jesus. Really? What happened? And, you know, I just. Then I went into the Book of Mormon and I started taking church a lot more seriously when I went. And what do you love about Jesus? His love, his compassion, the way that he was concerned about the poor and the needy. That was something that I felt deeply about. You know, we did a lot of surfing trips into Mexico, and I would come across the border at, you know, age 16 to 17 and see poverty, Tijuana. See a lot in Ensenada, down in there. And it would. You'd see the poverty and the Women on the street corners. And I. I was really, really moved by that. And. And. And so I. All these different things that, you know, connect with Jesus and the goodness of it all. And, you know, halfway through my senior year, you know, I'm still. You know, I had hair back then. It was fairly long, and I did have a beard, and I had an earring. And I was sitting in one of those same cubicles, a math class. And in between assignments, kids were talking. And somehow, I don't recall how it happened, but somehow it came out that I was a member of the church and a girl that I wasn't friends with. I still remember her name, Teresa. She sat there, and the surprised look on her face was classic. She said, what? You are a Mormon? And every eye John in the whole class, like, turned to me and looked at me, including the teacher, I remember. And I just felt this awkward moment of silence, and I just said, well, yes, I am. I'm a member of the church, Jesus Christ the Latter Day Saints. I'm a Mormon. And then this girl Teresa said, oh, is that why you are always so happy? And I. And I. It hit me for the first time that the happiness that I had seen in my parents and in my ward had become something real in my own life. And people could notice it. They could see it. And I responded, yes, that's exactly why. And it was at that point that I'd say that I really gained my own testimony of the church and a desire to serve a mission.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] So did you think of yourself as happy when she said that?

David Bokovoy [00:18:34] I. Yes, I did. I did.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] And did you attribute that to living the gospel?

David Bokovoy [00:18:42] I. I don't know that I. I thought it through to that level at that stage quite yet. I don't know that I quite made the connection. It was really that. That. That kind of sparked a kind of, you know, the light bulb went off and I thought, oh, yes, I am indeed that happy. And it is because of. It is because of the gospel.

Diving Deep into Bible and Book of Mormon Study

John Dehlin [00:19:01] Okay. Do you think by the. So you start studying the Bible and the Book of Mormon your senior year. Do you think you surpassed your peers in terms of biblical knowledge? Or was it just sort of like a kid trying to learn and you learned some stuff, or did you really get into it?

David Bokovoy [00:19:18] No, I really got into it. In fact, yeah, I started. And not only that, but then after that, after this experience, then I began to read Hugh Nibley, and as a

John Dehlin [00:19:28] senior in high school.

David Bokovoy [00:19:28] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] This would have been in, like, 88, 89. Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:19:33] Yeah. So it was like the light bulb went off of interest and passion. And that's the way that I work when I'm passionate about something. It just, I'm 110% okay. And that's what happened.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Did you cut your hair? Take the earring out?

David Bokovoy [00:19:46] No, no, not quite the beard. That actually happened a little bit later. I, I, I played in a, in a, in a band in, in high school. Kind of a post punk band called the Toad Skins. And yeah, you know, which we, we got the name out of the Anarchist

John Dehlin [00:20:01] Cookbook, if people know that.

David Bokovoy [00:20:03] Okay. So anyway, yeah, so it, and then I, I met a girl at youth conference. It was kind of cool story. In fact, it's a great story. My best friend, not LDS, and this is the 80s, so he had purple hair and it was like one of these, like, you know, way up, sort of like Mohawk sort of thing. And one day my mom came to us towards the end of the senior year. And, you know, I'm getting ready to graduate. I'm gonna turn 18. And there's a youth conference coming up. And she's like, david, I want you to go to youth conference. I'm like, oh, Mom, I don't want to go. That it's kind of for younger kids. And she said, I think it'll really help you. Please go. And I'm like, all right, but I'm going to bring Roy, who is my best buddy and non member. She said, oh, I think that's a great idea. Right? So I bring, we go and we walk into this dance. I'll never forget it. We walk into this dance, and I'm sure it wasn't this way, but I felt uncomfortable with the LDS kids and, and I felt like walking with my buddy that every eye just kind of turned and went like this at us. And who are these guys walking in? And I'm sure it wasn't that way, but I felt that way. And when we were there and I saw this, this girl, she had just long blonde hair and beautiful girl, that most beautiful girl that I'd ever seen in my life. And I pointed her out to my friend. I'm like, I'm like, roy, look at that girl. And he's like, yeah, she's really pretty. Go ask her to dance. I'm like, oh, no, I'm not gonna ask her to dance. I'm like, I'll walk up and she'll see me, and she's like, hippie kid. And, you know, I'll, she'll run and, and you know, he's like all night long he kept, go ask her to dance. Go ask her to dance. And I'm like, no, no, no. And then you know how the DJs will do. It's like the last song of the night. He's like, if you haven't found that special, Better make your move, right? And so I'm like, I'm like, all right, I better make my move. I better make my move right to the corner of the dance hall. I don't want to. Like, you know, if somebody asked me to dance and all of a sudden there was a tap on my shoulder and it was her.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] What? Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:21:57] And she, you know, she's like, would you like to dance? And I'm like, yeah. So we start dancing and I'm like shaking and nervous and I was.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] A hotel California, was it.

David Bokovoy [00:22:09] I think, I think it was lady in red.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] Since the 80s, of course, the lady in red.

David Bokovoy [00:22:16] So, yeah, we're dancing. And she was so kind and I was so scared and nervous to talk to her because she was just absolutely beautiful. And I, it's kind of. This is a really great story because, you know, she, you know, we, I asked her, I said, oh, you ever go to steak dance? She's like, all the time. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'll look for you. Which I never went to those. But anyway, she was scheduled. Then we said goodbye and I, I was on cloud nine. I couldn't believe this girl had asked me to dance. And I, you know, didn't really follow it up or anything like that, but she went to a different high school, same state, but a different, different high school. And she was going to prom her junior year and with a non member and this, this guy that she's going with, which she has a crush on, he gets his cousin to call her up and, and, and, and he says, okay, my, my, you know, my, my cousin, he's. He's gonna rent a limo, he's getting a tux, he's taking you out to a nice restaurant. You know, you're, you're going to prom, you know you're gonna have to put out, right? Oh, yeah. And here, here's this, this girl who's. She hasn't ever even kissed a boy. She's got a young women's medallion around her neck, right? And everything, and just wonderful lds young woman. And, and she's just, he's like, excuse me. And, and if that's the expectation, please tell him that I'm not interested in going. And, and so she didn't go. And she sat there really upset. I mean, it's getting her dress and everything. And. And she thought, man, guys are lame. Guys are so terrible. She's like, I need to find nicer guys to hang out with. And she's like, that David Baca voice seemed like a nice guy. I'm sure he would never lay down expectations like that for a girl that she owed affection in any sense. I should. I should call him up. And. And she did. And anyway, we started dating.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:24:13] Yeah. And we started dating right after. Then I. After I graduated. And she was a great influence in my life. And she was like, yeah, she's like, you know that band that you're playing with? I don't know if they. It's a. If it's really what you want to do and you're talking about going on a mission, maybe you should think about that. I'm like, yeah, you're right. She's like, maybe you should cut your hair. I'm like, okay. Anyway, it just kind of went down that way and, and just. I just fell absolutely in love with her. And I went off to Brazil on a mission, and she went to byu. She was. And then we wrote. And every week while I was a missionary. And then I. When I came home two months after my mission, we got married in the. Oh, la.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] You married her?

David Bokovoy [00:24:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:00] Oh, wow.

David Bokovoy [00:25:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] That's cool.

David Bokovoy [00:25:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] Okay, you're back. I don't want to cut that off, but okay. So when you went on your mission, where would you have described your testimony as?

Testimony Before the Mission

David Bokovoy [00:25:11] Oh, rock solid.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:25:13] So absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] Had you, as a late teenager, prayed to get that confirmation, and how would you describe your relationship with Heavenly Father, with the church?

David Bokovoy [00:25:24] Very strong.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:25:25] Very strong. And I.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] You had certainty?

David Bokovoy [00:25:28] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] What was that based on? Because I tried to get that. I had a hard time getting it.

David Bokovoy [00:25:32] Yeah, I mean, it was really based upon the. It was part intellectual. You know, I feel like. I felt like I put the pieces together, that it really made sense, that Mormonism really made sense.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] Talmage and wood still and all that.

David Bokovoy [00:25:47] Yeah. Really made sense of the universe. But it was, it was fundamentally, though, just a deep spiritual joy, ecstasy, happiness, you know, the, the feelings that Mormons traditionally link with the Holy Ghost. And. Yeah, so I, I, I was, I was absolutely converted. There. There was no way that I would have left my girlfriend that I was madly in love with that I would have left the ocean and surfing and music. Music. And, And. And I had a really good paying job at the time. There's no way I would have left that if I, if I hadn't been 110% converted. And I was. And so I, I put my heart and soul into it. I mean, I just, I could do everything. I was absolutely obedient and did the best job that I possibly could.

Serving a Mission in Brazil

John Dehlin [00:26:38] What was the mission? Which? Brazil.

David Bokovoy [00:26:40] Brazil, Curitiba.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:26:42] From 1990-92.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] Any sort of really important stories from your mission to tell that help us understand your journey or just typical Mormon mission?

David Bokovoy [00:26:52] Yeah, I mean, great experiences with, you know, giving blessings and healing and we, you know, I, I, okay, I'll share. This is interesting in light of way things go down. My, when I, because I'd never studied other than on my own, you know, Mormonism, I've never had, never been in a class environment where I'd taken anything seriously and I'd never studied a foreign language ever. And I did not want to go foreign speaking. I wanted to go stateside so that I could teach in English and not have to learn a foreign language. And I felt like I was a good teacher and that this. Anyway, but when I went to the MTC then I really struggled with learning Portuguese. I had a companion from Lubbock, Texas who had a number of years of, of, of Spanish. And so, you know, with that, within a couple of weeks he's already like, hola. And then they turn to me and they say, okay, Elder Bacavo. And I'd be like, hola. I just couldn't do it. And they, they literally, they went and got a tutor for me to help me with the language on the side, which is interesting in light of my career choices in the languages that I would eventually come to study. But I loved the mission. It was, in fact, I struggled at first with the language. And I remember a, an ape I went on splits with, with an ap. And he, we were teaching together and I was just a brand new missionary and he was really impressed with my teaching skills. And remember he said, you know, Elder Bogavoy, mark my words, the day will come when you learn this language. You'll be baptizing people on a weekly basis. And he was right. I mean, that's what happened. It was Brazil. It wasn't all me, it's Brazil. But yeah, that's what happened.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Every kind of Mormon, Mormonism past couple decades is known for some of these really low quality baptisms in third world countries.

David Bokovoy [00:29:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] Did that sort of thing happen in Brazil?

David Bokovoy [00:29:13] Sure, sure. Yeah, sure we did. I mean, yeah, you, I mean we tried to, to not go down that road. I mean, There. There were times when someone I could tell was interested in baptism because he thought maybe this would give him access to America. I mean, I remember these. Some things like that happening. And we. We didn't baptize people that my companion and I. But that's not to. That we knew that. But that's not to say that everybody we baptized was, you know, absolutely converted and stayed. Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] Like your mission had hundreds of baptisms a month, I'm guessing.

David Bokovoy [00:29:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Yeah. Okay, cool. So. So you left. So you finished your mission on cloud nine. How'd you finish your mission?

David Bokovoy [00:29:59] Yeah, on absolute Cloud nine. And I. It was at that. That's where I learned to study is on my mission because I was so passionate about the church, about. About Mormonism that I worked really hard as a missionary. And, I mean, I came back and I was like. So I was. So. My mom started crying when she saw me because I was so skinny. Not only because the diet that we were eating, but, I mean, we were just walking in the heat of the day and, you know, and knocking doors and all the things that you do as a missionary. But anyway, I worked very hard, but I wanted to study. And so I would force myself to wake up an hour and a half early, earlier than the, you know, what

John Dehlin [00:30:43] is it, 6 o'?

David Bokovoy [00:30:44] Clock? I don't even remember now what the requirement is. But anyway, I would get up and I felt like if I did that, that I could read the books that I wanted to read. And for me, that was like, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. That was Discourses of Brigham Young. That was Doctrines of Salvation. That was the Great Apostasy by Talmadge. And I just. I poured through everything. And I remember, as much as I loved my mission, John, I kept thinking, I can't wait to get home and to be able to just spend 24 hours a day studying Mormon scripture, Mormon history, and just. And that's pretty much what I did when I got home.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] So I had a similar experience. I got all those books, you know, Teachings of the Prophet, Joseph Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith. And that really affected me reading those books. Joseph Fielding Smith was intense.

David Bokovoy [00:31:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] You know, teaching that hurricanes was God punishing People and Curse of Cain, and just, you know, all that stuff that we attribute to Bruce R. McConkey really came. A lot of it came from Joseph Fielding Smith. Did you adopt an orthodox sort of theology of Mormonism? So you were A Bruce R. McConkey Mormon?

David Bokovoy [00:31:55] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] On your mission?

David Bokovoy [00:31:56] Absolutely. In fact, that was one of the things that actually is what will set up my first. I'd say my primary faith crisis that I've experienced in my life. That I was. I. I loved McConkey. I mean, I. When I got home, I went and I started collecting everything that he had ever said. And this is right before the Internet. Right. Takes off. So I went into. I would. I married my wife in the LA temple and we went back up to byu. I started at uvcc.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] Oh, okay.

David Bokovoy [00:32:32] That's what it was Utah Valley Community College at the time. It changed to Utah Valley State College while I was there. But, you know, I couldn't get into a four year school program, of course, but I started taking classes there. But in my spare time, I worked for Pioneer Book down in Provo for, for credit. And I started collecting like the Journal Discourses and just everything I could possibly do. And then I would go up into these special collections through the card catalog system at BYU and try to collect everything. Two favorites were McConkey and, interesting enough, B.H. roberts. And so I was just xeroxing everything I could from these men and collecting file upon file upon file.

Coming Home and Shifting Paradigms

John Dehlin [00:33:11] Did you get off your mission in 92?

David Bokovoy [00:33:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] So you're BYU 92 to 93.

David Bokovoy [00:33:16] So no, I. I got up in 92 in October.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:33:21] And got married in December. And then in January I was at UVCC. My wife was at BYU.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] You. So you were there during the September 6th stuff? Joanna Brooks was there. I was there. Like, were you plugged into Sunstone and.

David Bokovoy [00:33:36] No.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Toscanos and.

David Bokovoy [00:33:38] No.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] And then there was Gail Houston, Cecilia Farr, all the feminist stuff.

David Bokovoy [00:33:42] Not yet.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] You didn't know about all that?

David Bokovoy [00:33:44] Not yet. Not yet. It took it. I did. What happened was I was up. I mean, just a couple of months after my mission, I was up in this in the archives and, and I had. And I was going through the card catalog and I see this reference to Bruce R. McConkey, Eugene, England and Adam God. And I already knew what Bruce R. McConkey had written about the Adam God doctrine because I basically memorized that section of Mormon doctrine. Right. I knew what he had said about cultists and how it wasn't true and that this is. And how it had been explained. These odd references from Brigham Young, you know, Adam is our God and the only God we have anything to do with. And all these things I knew, I understood. And so I'm like, well, I gotta get this letter. And so I went up and the secretary looked at me and she said, oh, I can't give you a copy of this, it's right here in the card catalog. She said, well, let me go get my supervisor. She went and got her supervisor. Supervisor came back with a Xerox copy for me with all of these stamps on it. Do not copy. Do not copy. Do not copy. Right. And I sit down and it's that, that, that, you know, now infamous letter that Elder McConkey wrote to Eugene, England, where he acknowledges that Brigham Young taught the Adam God doctrine. But, you know, he makes the statement, but he did not lead the church astray. And so it's all good. Right. And in essence. Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] These are not the droids you're looking

David Bokovoy [00:35:10] for, that sort of thing. And I just. Man, it. It rocked my world, John. It really did. I didn't know what to make of. To do. I knew that my feelings about Mormonism were. It didn't. It didn't cause me to doubt the church, but it did. I started having negative feelings towards Elder McConkey and Brigham Young and was wondering, well, how could Brigham Young truly be a prophet and not know who God was? That seems like kind of a big deal. Right. And I just. What happened was I. That shaped my whole life really, is because I realized that I was so passionate about Mormon scripture, Mormon history, Mormon theology, that I would learn things in the process that would be. That would challenge my perceptions, my understanding of things. And so I would need to. In Lord of. In order to make light, to make sense of my spiritual convictions regarding Mormonism, I would have to continually shift my paradigm of understanding the way I saw Scripture, the way I saw everything. And so that's why I became converted to this idea of shifting paradigms right after my mission. And that, that really is. I mean, can sum up my experience with Mormonism and. And why I did not necessarily struggle with, you know, when I.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] It inoculated you.

David Bokovoy [00:36:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Things later.

David Bokovoy [00:36:50] Yeah. Right. I was able to. I'm not saying I never had our time with. With things. When I learned things about the Book of Abraham or the book of a Book of Mormon and acronyms and things like that, but it did not present the types of challenges that a lot of people experience when they first sit down and read the CES letter. Right. Because for me, it was a very gradual experience where I. I learned this. I realized I'd have to shift paradigms, and I just kept going and going year after year after year.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] So for that first major paradigm shift away From Bruce R. McConkey Mormonism, I went through something very similar right around the same time I had all these honors colloquium professors at BYU that introduced me to Eugene England, Lowell Bennion, T. Edgar Lyon, who. You know, the whole. Phil Barlow, the book on a thoughtful faith. And they became mentors for me so that I'm like, oh, you don't have to leave. You can become a progressive, thoughtful Mormon.

David Bokovoy [00:37:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] Did.

David Bokovoy [00:37:50] Who.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] Who were. Were there any people, figures who were leaders, friends, who were mentors for you to kind of give you permission or vocabulary or a literature to allow that transformation? Does that make sense, the question?

David Bokovoy [00:38:05] Yeah, it does. And I would say, no, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:38:07] Oh, wow. Because all this in isolation.

David Bokovoy [00:38:09] Yeah, totally. That's weird.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] I mean, that's great.

David Bokovoy [00:38:12] Yeah. No, I agree. Because I. I hadn't had exposure to those. To, you know, any of those authors. I mean, I knew who they were, but I. I was all about, you know, I literally. John, during those years, I. Even after this faith crisis, I still was kind of in that mode where I felt like I didn't. I didn't even care what Mormon scholars had said on a topic, like, or BYU professors if it didn't come straight from a general authority. It wasn't something that I felt like I was needed to take seriously or was even that concerned with. So, you know, I wasn't. I had very little exposure to Bible scholarship or anything like that, beyond things that were. That came from McConkey or Joseph Building Smith, those things that would change. Well, when I was at uvcc, I took an institute class, and I was a little bit. I'll admit, I was a little bit kind of cocky. I kind of felt like, I'll take this. Maybe it'll help me with my spirituality. But I felt so well read at that point that, like, there was nothing I could learn in an institute class or a Sunday school class or something that I didn't know before about the scriptures. Just obviously cocky, but that's kind of where I was at. And then I. This, this institute teacher knew a little bit of Hebrew and he started writing Hebrew up on the board. And I thought, wow, I have got to learn this language now. And so while I was at uvcc, I became a good. A great student. I did very well and developed. First I thought I'd study psychology because, like you, I wanted to help people. And then it was. And I liked the psychology courses, but I loved the history courses. And one day that was just like the light bulb went off in my mind. I thought, I can do history. And so that's what that happened. So I got my associate's degree, and then Transferred to BYU and as a history major and a Near Eastern Studies minor and did really well there. And then it was while I was there that I was in the BYU bookstore and there was a book. And I hadn't delved into really anything that LDS scholars had done, let alone non LDS scholars, but there was a book in the BYU library, the Art of Biblical Narrative by Robert Alter, a literary scholar of the Bible. And I thought, that's kind of interesting. Maybe I'll take a look at that. And I bought the book. Book. And it was like, wow, this is like things I'm learning about the Bible that no one had ever taught me in church and, or anything or through general authorities. And I was, I fell in love with Bible scholarship right through that book. And I decided that I wanted to go to graduate school, that I would go to Brandeis University, which is a non sectarian Jewish institution, one of the premier academic programs for Hebrew Bible. And that was the only graduate program I applied to. It's the only thing I wanted to do.

Encountering David Wright and Biblical Scholarship at BYU

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Okay, what year did David Wright leave BYU? Oh my goodness, it would have been around the 93.

David Bokovoy [00:41:27] I didn't know him then. I can't remember when it was that.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Can you back up and tell the story of David Wright? You went to study under David Wright, is that right? Yeah. Okay, back up and tell the story of David Wright, if you don't mind.

David Bokovoy [00:41:36] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] Because that's going to play into you how you decide whether or not to go study under him, right?

David Bokovoy [00:41:43] Oh, yeah, definitely. Okay, so. So David Wright is a brilliant, wonderful human being, a brilliant man, one of the most incredibly brilliant individuals I've ever interacted with. He's now rightfully considered one of the premier scholars of Hebrew Bible or Old Testament. And David Wright as a young, as a young man wanted to become a Hugh Nibley. And so he went to. Yeah, so we went to Berkeley and studied there with Jacob Milgram, another famous name in Hebrew Bible scholarship. And while he was there, he started to realize that in light of what he was learning, the Book of Mormon could not be historical. Book of Abraham had all these problems, things of this nature. And he told me that he remembered like walking, lying awake at night and walking back and forth in his apartment, you know, trying to figure out how can this be and what does this mean? It was very difficult for someone who began the study because he wanted to be another Hugh Nibley for the church. And so he already, by the time he graduated, then with his, and finished his doctorate, he had had a very Non traditional view of Mormon scripture, but still a love for the community and still certainly felt Mormon. And then Jeffrey R. Holland gave a very famous talk where he said, we want BYU to become God.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] Harvard of the West. Exactly, Harvard of the West.

David Bokovoy [00:43:27] And it was that, that David thought, oh, I can come, I can do this, I can teach here, Hebrew there. And so he was actually hired as a heap, not as a religion professor, he was hired as a Hebrew professor at byu. And what. And he never opened up in his classes talking about his non traditional views. He taught Hebrew, he taught scholarship was. And yet there were those within BYU who did know his beliefs and they, you know, anyway, that led to his termination.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] And so he's at BYU for how many years?

David Bokovoy [00:44:05] A couple years, I don't. Two or three, I think.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] And he starts teaching higher criticism.

David Bokovoy [00:44:09] I'm guessing he, he taught a little bit of it, but. But not, not a lot. I mean, he is mainly in Hebrew, the language, and he certainly exposed students to some of those issues.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] Yeah, but he had to. I mean, you have to do something kind of serious to get kicked out. You don't just.

David Bokovoy [00:44:28] Oh no. If you look at the document that identifies why he was fired, there were things like not believing in a universal flood of Noah. I mean, I just, I mean wild, crazy things that would not be problematic today.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] But Joseph Ely Smith wouldn't have liked that.

David Bokovoy [00:44:44] I know, exactly. So. So that he was terminated and then David Wright was picked up by Brandeis University. He's the only non Jewish professor that they've ever brought into their Near Eastern Judaic Studies program. And you know, BYU's loss was Brandeis's gain. And he's just a wonderful person. He just did. Does incredible scholarship.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] And how did he get excommunicated and when did he get excommunicated?

David Bokovoy [00:45:13] So his excommunication was in connection with

John Dehlin [00:45:15] Brent Metcalfe, which was like 93, 94. It was that book on alternative approaches to Mormon, New Approaches to the Book of Mormon. So he published a chapter in that along with Brett Metcalfe.

David Bokovoy [00:45:25] Yeah, and he had done some other things as well in Sunstone and things like that. And so he lived in a small community in New England and yet the leaders of the church had access to all of them, had been given access to, you know, copies of all of his publications and, you know, with a clear mandate to, to take some action on this matter. So he did not want to be excommunicated. But, but he was. And have you talked to him about

John Dehlin [00:46:00] what that was like for him at the time?

David Bokovoy [00:46:01] Yeah, a little bit. I mean, the interesting thing is, closest we are, and this is. We haven't had a lot of conversations really, about Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] Really like that.

David Bokovoy [00:46:14] Yeah, we've certainly had some over the years, but a lot of people kind of think that, that, oh, you know, David Righty kind of, you know, poison David Bacavoy and stuff like that. And it's, it's nothing could be further from the truth. We actually had very professional friendship and relationship. I mean, I, I loved studying with him and we certainly talked about some of those issues on occasion. But it was, it was very ra. Certainly was no pressure whatsoever for me to adopt any specific model about the Hebrew Bible, let alone my religion and Mormonism. That was never the case. Okay, so that's a little bit about his story.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] Okay, so you, when you decide to apply to graduate school, did you know who David Wright was and what you were getting into?

David Bokovoy [00:47:06] A little bit.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] I. Did anyone warn you, oh, don't do that?

David Bokovoy [00:47:08] Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what happened. I. So I remember. See, what happened is that I, I already knew that I wanted to go into church education, so I went through a pre service program at BYU for seminary teacher training. And as part of that, they, they kind of line the first day you're there. They line up all the numbers. They're like, here are all the people that want to become seminary teachers for the church. Here are the programs. And this is why it's not going to happen for you. So have a backup plan. I mean, that's literally the way they lay out the first session. So Brandeis actually was my backup plan. And it was my only one. It was the only school I applied to. And when that acceptance letter came, I remember my wife and I, we had two little girls. We didn't put off having children. So we're in Wymount Terrace, two little children, two little girls and I. And that letter came and we cried and jumped up and down and we were so excited. And now we face this dilemma. What are we going to do? Because this is something I, both of us really wanted to go out there and have this experience, but I still felt this strong desire to be connected with church education. And in the end, the administrators and ces, they just said, look, the door's not closed for you in church education. Since you seem so passionate about this, why don't you go out and do that? So I decided, all right, that's what I'll do. I'll go get the master's and the Doctorate, because what good does it mean masters do someone in Jewish studies, right. You got to continue on if it really going to benefit you in some way. And so we were excited. We're getting ready to move our little family in a little moving van out of Wymount Terrace across the country to Boston and this great adventure. And my Hebrew professor pulled me aside and he said, david, I think you should really reconsider going to Brandeis. And I said, said what? I mean, it's one of the premier academic institutions in the world for, for what I want to study. And, and he said, well, they have an excommunicated Mormon there, which I knew. And he said, he is a good person, he'll never be unkind to you, but it's clearly a reflection of how critical their program is, the fact that they have hired him and he's these flourishing there. And as a believing Latter Day Saint, you won't feel comfortable studying those in, in that manner. And I looked at him and I just dismissed that and I said, well, thank you for your concern. And I remember I literally said this. I, I will never buy into the documentary hypothesis, which is what I wrote my book about.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] Yeah, I know, I read it.

David Bokovoy [00:49:45] So I know. But I said, I'll never buy into the documentary hypothesis, but I want to understand how scholars interpret this material. I want to understand that. He said, okay, as long as you, you don't buy into it, but just want to go to Sanders and you'll be okay. And I'm like, all right, thank you. And it was then shortly after that, another BYU professor that I had become close to, he approached me and he said, david, I think it's great that you're going to Brandeis, but don't study Bible. Study Acadian, focus on Acadian and Mesopotamian studies, or do comparative Semitic, do something, but don't focus on Bible. Because we've never had a Latter Day Saint pass through a critical biblical studies program and come out with his or her testimony. And I dismissed that too, obviously. And I said, I said, well, I like all those other things and I am going to study them, but my love is the Bible. That's what I want to study. And, and that's what I did. And so with, and then this is what's great, John. I'm like in my first semester of, at Brandeis University, and I'm taking a class from David Wright on Biblical and Ancient Near Eastern law, very first semester of my, my graduate program, and we've got slave laws, like from the Bible and we're lining them up and comparing and contrasting them. And all of a sudden I'm looking at this stuff. Stuff carefully, really, for the first time in my life. And I realized there's no way to make sense of this material unless we allow for different sources and strands of tradition. And once that. That was just. That was it for me.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] And from reading your book, it's because they'll have. They'll have different kind of rules for slaves depending on where you are in the Bible.

David Bokovoy [00:51:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] You know, seven years they get released versus seven years their wife and kids. Kids don't get released. And the money. Do you leave them with money or not?

David Bokovoy [00:51:43] What have you, Women, everything. And it was like. And that's why in the book, that's why it was one of the first thing that I wanted to expose LDS readers to is or were the slave laws? Because that's what was light bulb for me. And once I allowed for that, I was like, okay, Bible has different sources, different strands. And once I did that, then all of a sudden I realized, and the scholarly way of interpreting this material is the. It makes better sense of the evidence than traditional models. And so what am I going to do? I'm going to have to shift paradigms.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber. Subscriber@mormonstories.org.

David Bokovoy [00:52:51] This morning I went to the woods to see what I could learn

John Dehlin [00:53:00] it

David Bokovoy [00:53:00] told me to listen to the music of our land Singing all about this city going to hell so don't tell me to find.

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 1014

John Dehlin [00:00:08] Don't know why I can't feel the morning don't know why I can't feel the dawn Everything inside me is lonesome But I don't feel nothing at all I don't feel nothing at all I got a wild, a wild, wild heart.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and, and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] Don't know why you want me gone Everything inside of me is lonesome I don't feel nothing at all I don't feel nothing at all I got a wild, a wild, wild, wild.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] So really quickly we are going to dig into to this in the, the second cluster of the interview, which is applying higher criticism in the documentary hypothesis to Mormon scripture. Give people an overview, if you don't mind, in just a couple minutes of what higher criticism is and what the documentary hypothesis is to then explain how that applies to these rules on slavery.

The Documentary Hypothesis and Higher Criticism

David Bokovoy [00:01:48] Excellent. So the documentary hypothesis.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And let's, let's back up if it's. If it's okay. The first I heard about this was reading Kaimpo Talk. So my listeners will know, you know, my name is Asher Lev, the Chosen, the Promised Kaim Potok wrote about Judaism's transformation into modernity.

David Bokovoy [00:02:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] And you know, you can't read a kind Potok book without it mentioning.

David Bokovoy [00:02:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Higher criticism.

David Bokovoy [00:02:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Which is basically Jews trying to confront this theory. And it rocked Judaism in the late 1800s, you know, and all through the 1900s.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] Right.

David Bokovoy [00:02:22] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] So tell that story. Tell the story of higher criticism and the documentary hypothesis, if you don't mind.

David Bokovoy [00:02:28] So I so really has its origins in Germany. Germany in the Protestant tradition. Protestant scholars in Germany in The, you know, 1800s began to study scientifically, academically, seriously, the Bible, trying to make sense of discrepancies and inconsistencies in the text. Up to that time, the Bible universally had been treated as a privileged text. And what I mean by that is that it was a. It's not a normal book. You can't read it according to the normal rules that one would use to understand a book. Instead, we have to harmonize to make everything make sense and to. And discrepancies that are obvious or repetitions that. That are incongruent. These things have to be explained by gaps in the stories or, or what have you.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] So creative thinking.

David Bokovoy [00:03:18] Creative thinking so that it's all unified. And then that starts to change in the 1800s, right about the same time as Joseph Smith, really, with Protestant universities in Germany beginning to take a more scientific approach. And granted it, as I talk about in the book there, there earlier with the Enlightenment, I had no idea Hobbes

John Dehlin [00:03:36] and Pain wrote about biblical inconsistency.

David Bokovoy [00:03:40] That's what I say in the Enlightenment. So it even has its origins earlier than that. But still, really, academically, we're talking German Protestant scholarship in the 1800s and a desire to understand these inconsistencies and discrepancies. So, for example, um, you know, just take Genesis chapter one. Genesis chapter one tells a creation story, and then you jumped into Genesis chapter two and a creation. It's like nothing ever happened. All of a sudden, creation happens again. But it's. The events take place at different. On different days and it's, it's. It. You know, one account uses Elohim, or God as a. As a noun. The other one uses Yahweh, or what we render as Jehovah, translated as Lord with capital letters. And so in an effort to try and understand this material, these scholars started to come together and hypothesize that there were different documents that were produced historically throughout ancient Israel's past, and those were amalgamated by a redactor or an editor and brought together at some point to create our present Pentateuch, the book of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] And there's four main strains, right?

David Bokovoy [00:04:51] Yeah. In the traditional model of the documentary hypothesis, there is. There are four strands or documents. Those. Now all Bible scholars agree that there are different documents that compose that material. There is some debate in the academy as to how those sources line up and which one is an independent source versus a fragment. These things that scholars debate back and forth about.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] And they're basically known as P, J, E and D. Yes. Priestly source, Yahweh, wistic source, Elohist source, and Deuteronomy source. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Excellent.

David Bokovoy [00:05:28] Thanks for reading the book.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Oh, yeah, I read the book. I read the book. Really interesting book.

David Bokovoy [00:05:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Okay, but. But those, those. The actual. There's no scroll that's like the J scroll, right? There's no scroll.

David Bokovoy [00:05:39] That's.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] That is.

David Bokovoy [00:05:39] That has survived and exists.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] No, but, but there's Enough sort of like consistency or fluidity. If you isolate and kind of chop, chop out the Pentateuch, you can kind of. And I'm guessing there are books of people who have tr. This is what I think is the J Source. This is what I think is that Definitely. Okay, definitely.

David Bokovoy [00:06:00] Yeah, that's exactly correct. And that's what I, in my book I wanted to do for an LDS audience, is introduce them to that model. And I really wrote it from the perspective that I wanted to provide a service for my community to say that, you know what, you can be religious, you can still view this material as sacred, inspired scripture and accept higher criticism and historical scholarship.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Why historically has higher criticism? The documentary hypothesis, why have they been challenging to Mormon faith in the past? So as you think about, put yourself back in that situation both before when you're saying, I'll never accept the documentary hypothesis, and then later when you're like, oh my gosh, I have to accept it. How does that then make you start wondering whether Mormonism is true?

David Bokovoy [00:06:51] Oh, because. Well, first and foremost, it shows that Moses was not the author of that material. And that presents a challenge directly for Latter Day Saints, because why is that a problem? Because we have the Book of Moses. Right. That opens up and starts off and literally presents the opening chapters of Genesis as a revelation that Moses received on a high mountain peak. So that's challenging.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] Yeah. That part of your book blew me away because it's like, oh, yeah, of course Moses wrote the Pentateuch. But then you show, you know, it mentions Moses. What? I mean, I don't want to tell. Mentions Moses's death, right?

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] So how could Moses be the author of the Pentateuch if it writes about his own death?

David Bokovoy [00:07:34] Precisely. Precisely.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] That's just like. That was like, point one. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Then who wrote it if it wasn't Moses?

David Bokovoy [00:07:41] Right, Exactly. And it causes challenges then for the Book of Abraham, my traditional understanding of that. It presents challenges for the Book of Mormon, because the Book of Mormon talks about the books of Moses on the brass plates that were brought by Lehi and his family with them into the new world. And that material did not exist in that form.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] There wouldn't have been a Pentateuch in plates in 600 BC. Why not? This was the Plates of Laban, right? The brass plates.

David Bokovoy [00:08:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:15] Those would not have existed. Why?

David Bokovoy [00:08:17] Because they. The material that becomes Genesis through Deuteronomy, much of it had not yet. Some of it had not yet been written, and it certainly had not yet been compiled Together in the form that we have it in the Bible.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] So jews in the 600 BC weren't running around with the Pentateuch?

David Bokovoy [00:08:38] No, no. In fact, that's another thing is that, I mean, we just think about our understanding of ancient Israel is that we kind of think of ancient Israelites, you know, all having their scrolls and their family home evening, like open it up, let's read from Genesis sort of thing. But the reality is in the ancient world, very few people were even literate, let alone had the means to afford a scroll of sacred text or material. It just didn't exist. So, you know, even up into, you know, European Western history, up until the time that the printing press is invented, less than 50% of the European population could even read. So if we go back further in time, I mean, it's just, you know, it depends on which culture we're talking about. Ancient Athens is one of the most, was one of the most literate ancient societies. And even they still only maybe 5 to 6% are the estimates that scholars give of the population could read ancient Israel even at the time of Christ. When you get into Judaism at that time, um, all of his disciples, they're even called, in the book of Acts, they're called illiterate men. So yeah, so it, yeah, so the idea that they had scriptures and were running around with this, it's just very anachronistic.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] But why didn't the priest, let's just say the head priest of whatever main Israeli tribe in 600 BC, why didn't he have a Pentateuch he could read?

David Bokovoy [00:09:55] Well, they did have scrolls and some of it, some of the material certainly existed by that time period. And I discussed that in my book and I have no doubt that there were times when the priest would open up some of that sacred material and read it out loud to the people on sacred occasions. That certainly did take place. But ultimately what it is is that, you know, the Pentateuch of the five books which are traditionally ascribed to Moses, at least in the form that they exist now, would not have existed during that time period when it takes place. So these are challenges that Mormons face then when they start to delve into these topics and try to understand it in light of their spiritual convictions, regard sacred text.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] And I'm guessing just making that shift in your mind from privileged text to non privileged text is a, is a real paradigm shift for a Mormon.

David Bokovoy [00:10:47] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] Because you're looking for all the flaws, all the problems, all the inconsistencies, all the contradictions, all the anachronisms Exactly. And it's probably impossible to just isolate that to the Old Testament.

David Bokovoy [00:10:58] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] And that's an. Old Testament's a problem because that's the foundation of all Mormon scripture.

David Bokovoy [00:11:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] So it's problematic both ways.

David Bokovoy [00:11:06] It ties into, you know, priesthood restoration. Right. It ties into, you know, temple worship.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] All.

David Bokovoy [00:11:12] All these things have implications that need to be considered. And that's why my professors were concerned about what I was going to do. Now I, John, I fell in love with it. I mean, it just. I. I fell in love with it because it made sense. And all of a sudden, even complicated books like Isaiah made perfect sense. I finally got Isaiah. I remember this and other material, and it was thrilling and it was exhilarating. And yet I felt deep within my soul that I did not want to

John Dehlin [00:11:45] lose

David Bokovoy [00:11:48] the spiritual devotional connection that I felt to Scripture, that it inspired my interest in the first place. And so even though I had gone to Brandeis with the intention of getting the master's and then staying for the doctorate, by the time I finished my master's degree, I realized that I loved this pursuit. I would continue it, but I wanted to go into church education at that point to. To stay in the church, to actually to maintain a testimony. It's kind of unusual, but that's. That was really what it was. I thought if I, you know, I. If I'm going to do this academic, historical, challenging side to scripture, I better keep my feet in the devotional side that inspired the interest. And what better way to do that than to teach in church education and help young people find spirituality in the context of Mormonism and those sacred texts.

Working for CES and Teaching Seminary

John Dehlin [00:12:42] So how many years into grad school did you start working for CES and what was that audition slash application process like?

David Bokovoy [00:12:50] So it was after I finished the master's degree, it took me two years. And then once I completed that, right at the end, I contacted ces. They sent out someone to observe me teaching a course. Since I'd already done the pre service and was one of the people that they had at the top of their list that they were going to consider to hire, they let me in, and I was very grateful for it and excited at this new opportunity to do something that really I wanted to do my whole life, which is increase faith and teach Scripture.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] And so you got in?

David Bokovoy [00:13:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] It's really competitive, right?

David Bokovoy [00:13:29] It is, very much so. And I was very fortunate. They. They hired us and they. I wanted to stay in Boston. I thought I'd stay there and just, you know, teach Institute and and work on the doctorate. But at that time, at least the way that church education worked, they wanted me to have four years of experience teaching in, in a release time setting. So we packed up our moving truck and we, we moved to Utah and I taught seminary for four years, where I taught it first at Thomas Jefferson Junior High School. It's on the west side, kind of in Kearns.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Oh, here in Utah?

David Bokovoy [00:14:05] Yeah, here in Utah. And then I did three years out in Grantsville, which is just west of Tooele. There is something out there, and it's a wonderful community.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] That has got to be super weird to get a master's from Brandeis, learning Hebrew higher criticism, and then to go to some Tooele High School to teach early morning seminary. It was, and the CES curriculum it was.

David Bokovoy [00:14:32] But in my mind, number one, I loved what I was doing because I love teenagers, I love people, and I enjoyed helping them find spirituality in the context of Mormonism. So I loved doing what I was doing. But I also in my mind realized this was not the end that I, I, for me, the end was byu.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Yeah. Okay. So, so you, anything, anything about those four years you want to talk about in terms of faith or, or challenges from administration, people questioning your abilities? Anything interesting happened?

David Bokovoy [00:15:11] No, I didn't have any, there were, no, there weren't any concerns with my abilities or anything or questions of my faith or what I'd studied at all.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] And you must have, you did four years, so you must have taught Old Testament as one of the years.

David Bokovoy [00:15:25] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Did you try and introduce higher criticism and documentary hypothesis to your Noilla High School student?

John Dehlin [00:15:31] Mormon?

David Bokovoy [00:15:32] I, I, I, I mean, I certainly talked about textual divisions and things like that. And, and I, but I very much approached seminary teaching from the sense of that I wanted Latter Day Saints students to learn that they could be critically minded and spiritual at the same time, that those two things went together and they should always go together in their life. And I have always been very careful then to bear my testimony in a way that was true to my own convictions. But, so I would say things such as the way I would always bear my testimony. I have a strong testimony the Book of Mormon is true. I have a witness that it is the word of God. I have, you know, those types of terms. But I never wanted to leave people with the impression that I know without a shadow of a doubt, with every certainty that these things are true. I never felt comfortable with that type of language and I intentionally avoided it. And I never, and what I found is that the youth that I Worked with at least found that quite refreshing that someone could just say, would be open and just talk about spiritual convictions and the fact that I had questions and don't have all the answers to it.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] So you were kind of candid and open with the students?

David Bokovoy [00:16:52] Oh, very much so. Very much so.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:16:55] But without any problems or concerns. I mean, it was just a wonderful, glorious time for us. And I began teaching at byu. I would actually drive down from Tooele, that back road, to teach in the summertime in the religion department at Brigham Young University. Because that was my, that was my plan, that was my goal.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] So you go back to Brandeis for your PhD. Is that next in your story?

David Bokovoy [00:17:19] Sure, yeah. So what happened was I, I knew I needed a doctorate to, to get to BYU and to have this experience. And I tried to go to the U, but they, they wrote back and they were kind and they said, we just don't have the faculty to support you with your interest. So I knew I needed back. And so four years later I had, I was very fortunate that I, I did, I did quite well at Brandeis. I, I finished the. They don't. You don't write a thesis for your master's degree there you have an oral comprehensive exam in Hebrew with your professors, I, with Marx V. Bretler, who is a very famous Orthodox Jewish professor. David Wright, Zvi Abbush, who's a seriologist who specializes in Babylonian witchcraft and magic. And I sat down and I finished it with honors, which is something that they don't typically give. And I was really grateful that I was able to have that experience and opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Okay, I just realized something. Your classmates were probably Jews who had been reading and studying Hebrew their whole lives and you were just picking up Hebrew for the first time. How do you not get overwhelmed by feeling inadequate? And then how do you thrive to equal or surpass those fellow peers when this is brand new to you? I mean, is it as remarkable as I'm making it sound as I put it together, not to ask you to brag about yourself?

David Bokovoy [00:18:58] No, it was really when I, because I studied two years of biblical Hebrew at BYU and I did a semester of Ugaritic, which is an ancient Canaanite language. And I, so I had a little bit of background and then I, and I felt like really confident in my abilities. And then you get there to Brandeis, and you're right, I sat down with. And you know, there were even some undergraduate students that were taking graduate level courses a few times in some of these classes and they had grown up in the Hebrew day schools and things like that and all yeshivas or whatever they had, they had a native fluency that I, I don't have now, I, and I never will unless you're raised with that. And so at first I was just like, wow, I don't know Hebrew. And I had a really, there was a wonderful Jewish friend, Stephanie, who we became close and she came over my house and we'd sit on the couch and she'd listen to me read and try to help me correct my pronunciation and things that weren't quite right. And, and then over time you just, you know, with a passion, you develop it. But I did now, I mean, it's, it's heavily linguistic oriented. So you know, Hebrew and Aramaic and then Acadian I did, which is the language of ancient Babylon and Assyria written in cuneiform script. I did like three, no, four years of Akkadian and then did comprehensive exams in that, so. And then I do all the northwest Semitic languages too now. So I went from like needing special help with Portuguese.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] Yeah, you struggle Portuguese, which is one of the easiest to learn.

David Bokovoy [00:20:40] Yeah, I know. And it just, but what happened was I, number one, I learned how to study, but number two, it was really just because I realized I wanted to read this ancient material and I would need to have linguistic background to do so. And so just, just took a lot of, a lot of hard work.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] Can you speak some Hebrew for us just so we get a sense for what that sounds like?

David Bokovoy [00:21:01] Sure. You can do better than that. I can do Old Babylonian, which has been dead for about 5,000 years.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] Do both.

David Bokovoy [00:21:08] So here's this from the Koda Hammurabi.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] What is that? What did you just say?

David Bokovoy [00:21:19] Hello? No, I just, that's like from the, I was just citing some of the epilogue from the Koda Hammurabi, which is the oldest complete law collection and had an influence and impact upon the book of Exodus.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] Okay. All right.

David Bokovoy [00:21:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:33] Is that a language that's spoken today?

David Bokovoy [00:21:35] No, it's been dead, it's been dead for about 5,000 years. It's, yeah, so I, I, it's, I have all these skills that are so non practical when it comes to Semitic languages. I have a sister in law who went to the University of Utah and she got her bachelor's degree in Arabic and immediately picked up a job, you know, working for the government and could do things. And I'm like, well, I got nothing really practical. If the country's ever invaded by ancient Babylonians, they'll, they'll put me on the list.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] But unless that happens, I do Hebrew. What was that?

David Bokovoy [00:22:11] Genesis chapter one, verse one.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] Okay, all right.

David Bokovoy [00:22:15] So yeah, I fell in love with him.

Completing a Doctorate at Brandeis

John Dehlin [00:22:17] Okay, so after you graduated, what'd you do?

David Bokovoy [00:22:23] Okay, so I was still in CES while I worked on my pH. Oh, where were we in the story? Oh, so. Oh, that's why I was telling you about the honors. I did. Well and so that's why it's important to mention the story because I took a four year break teaching seminary and they let me back in. And at that time Brandeis would only accept one doctoral student per year and I was accepted. I couldn't believe it. And I went to CES and I, I said I have this opportunity, can I go out there? And they said well yeah, we need help actually with institute. You can go out there and teach institute for us and, and then help write institute curriculum for the church and with the other part time and then work on your doctorate. And so by that time I had four children and we load up those four kids and went back then to Boston and, and I, that's when I then was able to, to teach at some really wonderful institutions. MIT and Wellesley College where Hillary Clinton went to school and Harvard and you know, it was just, it was, it was a, a glorious time period in my life where I developed deep friendship and love for people there in Boston and, and then obviously my students.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] What years were you in in Boston

David Bokovoy [00:23:46] doing institute and okay, so my first time that I was there for the master's degree would have been 98 to 2000 and that's in about 88 to 2000. So four years later, I guess about 2004 and I, we were there for trying to think probably moved back here and 2010. Oh man, I hope I got those, I hope I have those years. Right. But that's around.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] What's it like, you know, dealing with Mormon. There's sort of middle class mormonism in the U.S. and then there's like this blue blood Harvard, Wellesley, you know, mit, Mormonism.

David Bokovoy [00:24:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] Can you talk about what that, what,

David Bokovoy [00:24:33] what you observed going to church with Mitt Romney and.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:24:37] Kim B. Clark, who you know, dean of the Harvard.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] You were out there in the suburbs of Boston?

David Bokovoy [00:24:41] Yeah, I was with.

John Dehlin [00:24:42] You didn't live in Cambridge?

David Bokovoy [00:24:43] No, no, we lived in Belmont.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:24:45] Just town of four square miles. They had two wards and so you know, that's where kind of the Mormon hubbub was at least at the time. Probably it still is. And so yeah, going to.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Is that Laura Thatcher Ulrich Was she out there?

David Bokovoy [00:24:59] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] All those great Bushmen.

David Bokovoy [00:25:03] Bushman wasn't out there at the time, but he would come and make visits.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] And what was that like?

David Bokovoy [00:25:08] Is incredible, wonderful experience. Loved, love, my family loved it, my children loved. Was just one of the highlights of her life.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] What's Mitt Romney like?

David Bokovoy [00:25:22] You know, I, I don't know him. I, I've met him a few times, but I don't really know him very well. I know his sons quite well and they are, they're wonderful people. They really are. I mean, I'm a liberal democratic socialist, so when I sort of see eye to eye with them, but they are very sincere, wonderful human beings. They are.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] How are these kids at MIT and these Mormon kids at MIT and Harvard and Wellesley, how are they the same or different from other university kids?

David Bokovoy [00:25:54] This is what's so interesting, John. My first class that I taught, I was sent to MIT and you know, I'm a language, religion, text, humanities sort of person who, you know, when I found out that I wouldn't have to study math at BYU and we could do languages, I said, okay, sign me up for every language course, I don't want to do any math. And then I go to MIT and I'm like, how am I going to connect with these kids? And the students there at MIT were so humble despite their brilliance. So humble, so loving, so accepting. I just, I just, I just fell in love with him. It was incredible. Harvard also the same thing. I, I taught year long Isaiah courses to Harvard Law School students. Harvard Business School, I taught there and just, it was great, you know, faithful, wonderful people.

Early Mormon Blogging and Online Apologetics

John Dehlin [00:26:48] Okay, all right, so, so 2004 is when I think of kind of the blogger knackle erupting.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] And then 2005 is when Mormon's story started.

David Bokovoy [00:27:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Were you aware of. And then there's a lot of other stuff going on too. Were you aware of any of that stuff in the 2000s?

David Bokovoy [00:27:10] Yeah, a little bit. I think I got involved a little bit later on, but I was pretty active on those old fare boards. And that's my first introduction to you. Back in that time period when you were just starting Mormon stories up. I remember you came on and, and we're asking for people to come in, you know, talk about Book of Mormon apologetics and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] And how'd you get involved in apologetics? Let's back up a bit. How did you get involved with fair?

David Bokovoy [00:27:38] Well, so I never was officially involved with fair, but I was just interested in the boards to get on and you know, and that's when I, you know, started to get to know at a personal level, Dan Vogel, the critical Mormon historian, and Brent Metcalf and, you know, other people as well. And I would interact and debate with them online and, you know, what role did you take?

John Dehlin [00:28:03] Kind of the faithful scholars.

David Bokovoy [00:28:05] Yeah. So you, Defender of the faith.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] Did you, Were you annoyed at them at first? Were you fearful of them? Were you angry at them?

David Bokovoy [00:28:13] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Because those boards often got really nasty and still can get really nasty.

David Bokovoy [00:28:17] Yeah, not, not at all. I viewed them because, you know, I'd already developed a love for David Wright and I, and I, and I understood where they were coming from because I understood and respected their scholarship and I agreed with much of it. But I had also been involved with this process of shifting paradigms of belief so that I could make sense of it and still cling to my religious convictions. So I know it was never, I never with Dan and Brent and those famous individuals, never once was it ever confrontational or anything. That was never part of my, that's just not part of my disposition.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Did you have a name you went by on the boards?

David Bokovoy [00:29:04] I used my own name.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Oh, you did?

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] You used your own name?

John Dehlin [00:29:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] That's cool.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:29:09] Well, I don't know if it's smart, but at the time, you know, it's just all new. And honestly, I used my own name because I wanted to. Not that my name meant anything, but I just wanted so that, you know, people could understand my background and where I was coming from and what I studied and why I, you know, could serve that role as a defender of the faith.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] So you must have been one of the high profile apologists by the time you had your PhD from Brandeis. You knew Hebrew and all these other languages. I, I, you know, were you, you know, we hear about John Gee, we hear about Hugh Nibley, we hear about David Sorensen. Did you get sort of with Daniel Peterson, Lou Midgley, Greg Smith? Did you get kind of welcomed into that crowd?

David Bokovoy [00:29:57] Sure, yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were always very kind to me and let that, yeah, Dan Peterson and William Hamblin were very close friends of mine. I had studied with them at byu, so I knew them very well and, and had, and still do very bond feelings for those men. Yeah. And I did, I published with the Farms Review and did a number of.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] Before it became the Maxwell Institute.

David Bokovoy [00:30:23] Before it became the Maxwell Institute, yeah. I had tons of publications. My publications, almost all of them though, were not your traditional apologetic pieces that one thinks of. In terms of Mormon apologetics, it was like, I want to show how the Book of Mormon comes alive when read through an ancient lens. You know, things. Things such as that.

Faith Stretching Through the 2000s

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Okay, so as you're navigating those years in the 2000s, did you find your testimony stretching, struggling?

David Bokovoy [00:30:57] Oh, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Did you. Did you hit any moments of a faith crisis?

David Bokovoy [00:31:02] Definitely. I mean, I hit a point where it was. It was like, I just.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] What were the issues that were bugging you? Were you listening to podcasts? Were you reading Mormon things?

David Bokovoy [00:31:13] It was all in my own study. Joseph Smith's polygamy, obviously, his practices that I found horrific.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Did you know about that, or did you discover that at some point?

David Bokovoy [00:31:22] No, I knew about that for many years. I mean, I read, you know. You know, I'd read quite a bit of material.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] Had you read no Man Knows My History early on?

David Bokovoy [00:31:33] Oh, yeah, read Dan Vogel's Making the Profit.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Well, that didn't come out until, like, 2005, right?

David Bokovoy [00:31:38] Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I. I mean, I could. I wish I should have brought it, because I could show you Dan Vogel's book. I read Dan Vogel's book, and, like, every note in there is okay. So, like. Okay, here's how I could argue against this. Here's how I could argue against. The whole thing was just pencil. Pencil of all of this.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] So you read Rough Stone Rolling when it came out, and Dan Vogel's book, and did you regret Palmer's book, Simon Southerton's book?

David Bokovoy [00:32:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] You read all that stuff as it was coming out. Okay, yeah. And what's that doing to your testimony in the 2000s?

David Bokovoy [00:32:11] That material didn't shake me, really, because I had been able to shift paradigms and paradigms so much that it. I just felt like. I mean, I wouldn't to say that it didn't trouble me at all. I mean, obviously, I didn't like what Joseph Smith had done in terms of his practices of polygamy, and there were things like that, but it didn't. But I felt like I could understand it in terms of my religion and things of that nature. I think really what it was, though, was really a recognition that challenged me the most, was just the recognition of how my own study, specifically, if I was being completely honest, just would lead to all sorts of problems for Mormon scripture. And that was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Like, what were some of the big ones?

David Bokovoy [00:33:00] Well, like, for example, what scholars refer to as deutero Isaiah or second Isaiah. The book of Isaiah has 66 chapters. Chapters one through 39 are the theme is basically yell at, yell at my people because they've messed up. And then chapter 40 begins. Comfort ye, comfort ye, my people, sayeth the Lord your God. And all those then beautiful, comforting passages of suffering servant motif. Everything that happens, scholars are convinced and they're right for so many different reasons that that material was post exilic. I mean, it was written after the Jews were in, were in, were in exile, while they were in exile, and then even after they were in exile.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] And that's called Deutero Isaiah.

David Bokovoy [00:33:43] Deutero Isaiah or second Isaiah, and which

John Dehlin [00:33:46] would have been written after Lehi left Jerusalem.

David Bokovoy [00:33:48] Exactly. And you get.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] So Levi leaves Jerusalem supposedly with the brass plates that contain the Pentateuch Isaiah material on it, because that reaches. That ends up in the Book of Mormon.

David Bokovoy [00:33:58] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] But he couldn't have left with it because it hadn't been written.

David Bokovoy [00:34:00] Precisely.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:34:02] And not only that, it's not just that those sections of Deutero Isaiah are quoted basically verbatim through sections of the Book of Mormon. The reality is, one would be hard pressed to find a sermon in the Book of Mormon that has not been influenced by that material directly. It's. It's central to the structure of the entire narrative. So at first I would play with ideas like I thought, you know, the expansion model. Let's, let's do that. Let's do expansion.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] Tell people what that is.

David Bokovoy [00:34:30] Expansion model first and famously articulated really by Blake Ostler and Dialogue. And it's this idea that the Book of Mormon is, has an ancient core, but that has 19th century expansions added to it by Joseph, by Joseph Smith. And so I, you know, would to some extent would buy into that sort of model and look at it from that angle, but then you kind of strip it out and you're like, well, what if I remove all the 19th century elements of it? What do I have left? What's left? And that answer is not much. And so with these sorts of things that I would struggle with and labor with this, but. And yet nonetheless, I just had this deep spiritual conviction that the Book of Mormon was inspired in the word of God. So to try to make sense of that, I mean, I was struggling. I remember one time, and, you know, my dad came out to visit me in Boston and my dad, you know, convert to the church, and he kind of thought he understood what was going on. And very lovingly he came to me and he said, I know why you're struggling, David. I get it. You spent so many years where you believed that you could prove that the church is true. And now you no longer can do that. And I said, oh, dad, I wish it was that. I wish that was the case. No, it's that I can, with my studies, prove that the traditional assumptions are not true. That's why it's hard. Very difficult for me. What do I do?

John Dehlin [00:36:01] That's a different deal.

David Bokovoy [00:36:02] Yeah, very much so.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] And around what years is that?

David Bokovoy [00:36:07] Oh, I don't know, 2007, 2008. Somewhere around the line. So I'm still an institute teacher. I still have a testimony of the Church, the Book of Mormon, everything. I just. Yeah, it's just. It's just hard because you start to wonder at what point do I keep shifting paradigms? And then it just doesn't make sense anymore to keep going. So these are questions that I would have to ask. And anybody does that delves into this.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] Any other big ones besides Deutero Isaiah? You said polygamy. Deutero Isaiah. What about Book of Abraham?

David Bokovoy [00:36:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] Were you struggling with that?

David Bokovoy [00:36:38] You know, I. Not, not so much because I had already just realized that there's just no way that it's an ancient historical text. But, you know, from my perspective, even today, I still view it very much as inspired scripture, so.

John Dehlin [00:36:55] So that wasn't troublesome to you?

David Bokovoy [00:36:57] A little bit, but not at a. It's, it's. It's more difficult. The Book of Mormon is much more difficult because, I mean, in the Book of Mormon you got. I mean, if the Book of Mormon is tied into. If all of a sudden, then if you, you know, if you question that, then it leads to. What about priesthood restoration? What about ordinances? What about, you know, just from there on it, just what made you question

John Dehlin [00:37:19] the Book of Mormon besides Deutero Isaiah?

David Bokovoy [00:37:22] Oh, all the anachronisms, the 19th century components.

John Dehlin [00:37:25] Name some,

David Bokovoy [00:37:28] as I've already mentioned, the references to the Book of Moses and things such as that. The fact that it incorporates, you know, portions of the New Testament that wouldn't have been written. Malachi. I mean, as a, as a student of the Bible, it's just. The Book of Mormon is filled. You cannot find a verse practically in the Book of Mormon that doesn't have some phrase or word that is taken from the King James Bible that suggests that it's 19th century. So that's hard. That's hard. And what do you do with that?

John Dehlin [00:38:02] You didn't mention horses and steel and, you know, all that stuff.

David Bokovoy [00:38:06] Yeah, I mean, that stuff never really bothered me because it just. I just thought, you know, there are ways of understanding it, you know, apologetically, that are not as difficult, from my perspective, as the actual text of what you're getting with. Right. I mean, there's.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] So that's a unique perspective. The.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:38:24] It's still a bit different, huh?

John Dehlin [00:38:25] Yeah. Most of the people that struggle don't. Don't even consider the things you're talking about. Right.

David Bokovoy [00:38:31] Yeah, no, it's. It's more along the, you know, ces letter type stuff and steel and horses and tapers and all these, you know, things that people.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Wheat and barley and all that. Yeah. But for you, it was the actual scriptural text.

John Dehlin [00:38:44] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:38:44] Because I could look at those things and think, you know, I just. It's a translation issue or, you know, you know, or. Or just 19th century components being brought into the text. But when you're talking about this, all this biblical material that is, you know, whether it's New Testament or what have you, that is brought in in almost every verse that would not have been accessible. That's something that really, as a believer, you have to reconcile and try and understand.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] And that's something that seems kind of devastating that so many, even really thoughtful Mormons don't think about. Why are, you know, Native Americans living hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus, knowing Jesus's name, knowing his mom's name, getting baptized in his name, passing the sacrament, whatever it is that they're doing. And the actual Jews that Jesus comes from don't have that information. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of a problem, right?

David Bokovoy [00:39:48] Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think that's well said. And it's, you know, I mean, the Christology, which is a technical term for understanding who Christ was, is so advanced and 19th century in places as opposed to ancient, especially when we jump into historical Jesus studies, which is one of my deepest passions. So I. Yeah, they're tough. So, yeah, I would say my things that I had to struggle with were probably different than what most people encounter.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] So how did you navigate that? I know Prop 8 was a. Was a big turning point for you or at least a big notch for you.

David Bokovoy [00:40:29] Oh, yeah, very good. So it, it's.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] So

David Bokovoy [00:40:34] what happened was, you know, I just put a lot of things on the back shelf and just said, whatever, you know, I don't have all the answers. I have some answers. I don't have all the answers, but I know what I feel. I know what this text is. Does for me. I know what this community does. I know what this church does for me, and I love it. And it's enough. And a cynical person.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] I'M sorry, a cynical person would go, oh, well, it's your paycheck. You are not even free to kind of take extra leaps of logic or distance from the church because your pension, your paycheck, is that just a cynical view or is that realistic?

David Bokovoy [00:41:11] It's a great question. And at that stage in my life, I would say that wasn't even an issue for me. I still very much had a very strong testimony. Perhaps in some ways non traditional in some sense, but I had an absolute strong testimony. Didn't know how everything came together. Certainly was bothered by some things. But I mean, I remember like all I wanted to do was be in church education and, and teach for BYU specifically with those opportunities. I remember at Brandeis there was a. This is an important story. I mean, it's situated on a hill and there are these massive steps that a person has to walk up to to get to the Near Eastern Judaic Studies department. And I remember my first day of working on my doctoral degree and I was looking at hundreds of steps and I'm carrying all these Hebrew grammars and Acadian grammars and all of this massive literature on my back. And I, I thought, I am never going to be up there. I'm never going to get up these steps. And I had the thought come to me. I thought, you know, it's okay if I just keep taking one step at a time, I will be up on that hill. And that's a metaphor for my doctoral program right now with four children. And it's just in all the work and the languages and you have to learn to read in French and German as well, to do research in those languages and write the dissertation and everything. It seems impossible, but if I just take one step at a time, it's like this mountain and I will be up it and, and I will be where I want to be, which for me was, you know, absolutely. BYU Church education. So I, I don't mean so. Of course there were struggles in the sense of how to make sense of it and things that bothered me, but in the end I still very, absolutely committed to.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] You're in.

David Bokovoy [00:42:59] Oh, 100%.

Prop 8, LGBT Issues, and Growing Doubts

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Okay. So what is Prop 8 the next part of your story or what?

David Bokovoy [00:43:03] Sure, we can go there, but no, wherever you want. No, that's great.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] I don't want to rush it.

David Bokovoy [00:43:06] No, no, no, that's a perfect place.

John Dehlin [00:43:08] Yes, like, yeah, anything you want.

David Bokovoy [00:43:10] No, I never had any, any, any administrative, you know. Yeah, I mean, no, not with orthodoxy concerns or anything out there. And I was very careful To. I understood my charge as a religious educator. It wasn't to raise all these controversial topics or things like that. I give some to views. But I remember, for example, I was teaching at Institute of Harvard, and I was talking about textual divisions in the Book of Genesis. And I had this student come up to me after class, and he said, do you believe in the documentary hypothesis? He had learned about it in one of his college courses at Harvard. And I said, of course. And he's like, it was such a relief to him to see that his institute teacher, like, understood it, believed it, accepted what he had learned and made so much sense and still was absolute believer. So, yeah, so there were things like that that happened. But, yeah, Prop 8 was a big one for me because. Okay, so I have to tell this story. Okay, this is.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Hey, tell as many stories as you want.

David Bokovoy [00:44:08] All right, so this is a. This is an embarrassing story, but it's so important in my narrative. My wife and I went to. And we were in Harvard Square, and here I am, I'm a institute teacher out in Boston, and I'm. I'm more. I'm, you know, Harvard chaplain, and for the church and I, we go to a movie in Harvard Square. I don't even remember what was. But I remember the preview for a film that was going to come out later that year, and it was Brokeback Mountain. And after the movie was over, we walked out into that warm Harvard heat, and my wife turned to me and she said, I feel so sorry for people who love each other but can't be together. Just something really beautiful like that. And I was angry. And I remember I said to her, I said, I cannot believe. I don't know that I said, I can't believe. Maybe that's too strong. But I definitely said I was upset at her and let her know it, that she had been influenced by Hollywood and had bought into the gay agenda.

John Dehlin [00:45:17] You were there?

David Bokovoy [00:45:18] Oh, yeah. I told her this, and, you know, it was shortly after that that Prop 8 came along. And even though I still had those feelings, I felt Prop 8, the church's involvement was so misguided on so many levels. And, you know, one being that it was just an absolute waste of resources and time for the California Saints, especially going back to the poverty that we see in Mexico. I kept thinking, my goodness, if we could just take some of that effort and just go down to New Mexico, think about the good we could do. So there were. They were mainly issues like that and feeling like, you know, what people should be able to marry they want to marry and this sort of thing, even if I disagree. And I felt like this. Well, but then when I was a chaplain, I had to do some interfaith interactions with the other non LDS chaplains. And I remember. Did you know Greg Epstein?

John Dehlin [00:46:14] He's a secular chaplain.

David Bokovoy [00:46:15] Yeah. Good Without God. Yeah, Yeah, I know. Was he there when you were there? Yeah, he was there while he was writing that book. Good Without God.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] Cool, Cool.

David Bokovoy [00:46:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:46:23] Just curious. Yeah. He presented. He told us about that book that he was writing there in one meeting. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] So other religions. Catholicism.

David Bokovoy [00:46:30] Yeah. Evangelical, you know, Muslim, everything, you know, right there at Harvard. And I was paired off with this Christian chaplain, and we had to get to know each other better.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] How many fellow chaplains are there?

David Bokovoy [00:46:43] I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] 100?

David Bokovoy [00:46:45] No, no, no, no, no. Probably 20.

John Dehlin [00:46:46] Okay, okay, okay.

David Bokovoy [00:46:48] So I had to have this meeting with this man, and. And we started to talk to each other, and he opened up, John, and just bore his testimony to me with tears streaming down his cheeks. And he said, I want you to know that. And I want to share with you that I am gay, and I believe that God made me gay so that I can minister to the spiritual needs of the LGBT community and perform gay weddings in my church to help them. And it was at that point where it just hit me. I was just like, are you kidding me? How can we, as Latter Day Saints, come to this man and say, you can't perform the type of religious ceremonies, the spiritual ceremonies for your community that you feel called by God to do and have that accepted by our secular government when we expect the secular government to honor our religious liberties. And that's a big issue for Latter Day Saints. And it just. I just. That was. That the. You know, that was just too much for me to handle. It was so upsetting to me to think in those terms.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Terms.

David Bokovoy [00:48:02] And it went wrong. And anyway, that was. It was at that point. And then at the same time, you know, one of my fellow graduate students was a young man that I got to. Young man because I was old by the time I was going to graduate school, right. Who was a gay Jewish student. And I got to know it and. And love a. You know, a gay man. And I mean, as a friend. And I remember going. And I remember I knew his story about how he had grown up at a time period where with intense homophobia and it. He would be beat up and come home and tell his parents over and over again that he had fallen off bikes and that it would explain the bruises on his face and his body for being gay. And I went to his, his wedding in a synagogue and I saw how happy he was this, to be there with a partner in this. And, and I also realized how wrongly that Latter Day Saints traditionally look at it, because I think Mormons look at it as gay weddings as something, oh, they don't care about God, they don't care. It's all secular. It's a spiritual, religious right that many churches, many synagogues embrace. And if we're going to honor religious liberties, we have to honor theirs as well, even when we disagree. So all of this happened and I then started to get to know and be more sensitive to my LGBT students. And I felt driven to help them and protect them and help them know that they had a place within Mormonism that they could be loved and accepted and, and live as a gay member of the church. And that was something I felt very passionately about as a role as a religious educator.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] And was all that post Prop 8

David Bokovoy [00:49:58] or pre Prop 8, I'd say yeah, post Prop 8.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] Okay. During that time period, okay, so you start diverging in that way from the church.

David Bokovoy [00:50:08] Yeah, still absolute believer, but believing that. You know what I still believe to this day? I still believe that the general authorities of the church are loving, kind, wonderful human beings who want to do what is right, they want to protect the church, they want to help members, they want to do what is right. And yet they don't always do that from my perspective. And that's where I was at that, as you know, with Prop 8.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Okay, all right. So how do things progress?

David Bokovoy [00:50:50] So it was at that point then that I had basically finished the PhD and decided I needed to. It was time to move back to Utah and start teaching at byu, which was my dream in the first place. And, and people will now kind of look at that and say, oh, how could you be so naive? Here you studied with David Wright, one of the most famous excommunicated Mormons in the church. You do historical critical Bible scholarship. You have some non traditional views. Why would BYU ever take you? And it's easy to frame it in that way until one realizes that, that BYU and seminaries and institutes are under the same umbrella of church education. CES has two branches, the more academic side, the BYU's and the seminary and institutes. I was already in church education.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Yeah, you were in.

David Bokovoy [00:51:50] I was in. And I had never had any problems or concerns with my orthodoxy, you know, in or out of the classroom. And not only that, but I had had opportunities at Harvard and other places and typically byu, when they get someone in seminaries and institutes who has a doctorate in any field whatsoever, you know, they're really anxious to bring them into that side because they have the devotional side of teaching that they're interested in. And at that point in my life, I don't know, I'd published, I don't even know how many articles I'd published on the Book of Mormon showing how wonderful it is to read it through an ancient lens.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Published through the farms.

David Bokovoy [00:52:34] FARMS through the, you know, the Maxwell Institute, then later on through Sperry Symposiums. I mean a huge list of material that had done to show that I was a believer in and what I wanted to use my abilities for. And on top of that, you know, because it's not me, but it's because of where I studied at Brandeis. I mean I have had incredible training that allowed. So by the time I, I mean I was the first Latter Day Saint to publish academically on the Bible in the Journal of Biblical Literature, which is the premier academic venue for Bible scholarship. So, you know, I, I had all of this, I was teaching at BYU Education Week to, you know, thousands of people and it was, in my mind it was a no brainer. Of course it would happen.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] You must have been a superstar amongst Mormon apologists. I didn't know of you in a sense back then when you were kind of doing these things. I didn't know you published for Farron Farms really. So I mean until you sent me some articles. But you must have kind of been like an up and coming superstar to have all those credentials and, and to be a faithful sort of semi apologist.

David Bokovoy [00:53:50] Well, a superstar. I don't know about that. It's a kind word to use it. But I, what I mean by that

John Dehlin [00:53:57] is, and I don't know if this is true, but you get this sense that whatever scholarship Hugh Nibley or Daniel Peterson or any of those people have done, Sorenson, all that scholarship that was applied to Mormon apologetics would be sort of a laughingstock anywhere else. And so you don't get the sense that any of them were top notch scholars in their field yet. It sounds like you were a top notch scholar in your field, which would really set you apart from the average flavor of the, of the Mormon apologist scholar.

David Bokovoy [00:54:31] Well, that's kind of you. I, you know, I, I had great opportunities in training and I felt called by God really to do what I was doing.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] But did you get a sense there was an excitement about you and people really gravitating to you and what you were doing.

David Bokovoy [00:54:51] You know, I would get lots and lots of emails on a weekly basis from people that were trying to figure out how they could stay in the church. And I would do my best to respond and help them. I mean. Yeah, that happened a lot. Okay, that did happen a lot. And so I went to byu and I was there for two years. And so you got in? Well, I was, you know, basically adjuncting and still full time with seminaries and institute. So I went to CES and I said, I said, you know, I want to go to byu and I, and, and I want to move back to, to Utah because Boston is so expensive. And so they said, well, we'll send you back and move you back, but the only position we have available is seminary teaching. And I hadn't taught seminary in long. I've been teaching year long Isaiah courses. And I thought, oh, I can do that. I, I'll teach seminary for a year and then I'll go to byu. So immediately. So then I go, I moved to take a job at BYU.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] What year?

David Bokovoy [00:55:50] See that? Oh, 2010, I guess, or so.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:55:56] Yeah, but it would have been 2010.

John Dehlin [00:55:57] And what, what city, what high school.

David Bokovoy [00:56:00] So I, I was brought here to teach at Alta High School.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] And Sandy.

David Bokovoy [00:56:07] And Sandy.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:56:08] But I bought a home in Orem

John Dehlin [00:56:11] because you're gonna go byu.

David Bokovoy [00:56:13] And I get my kids all in school and everything. And then it, you know, and I, and I start teaching part time at BYU and I do it for two years and I love it. And I feel like, oh man, this is going exactly the way that I had hoped. And my student evaluations were all higher than the already high departmental average. I felt like this is just a done deal and I get to be with these people and colleagues. And I also. John, in my mind, I thought I need this because in the same way that I needed CES or seminary and Institute when I finished my master's degree, because I wanted to stay engaged in critical scholarship, but I wanted to stay devotionally involved. I thought, I want to be around peers and people that engage with this, that are still completely devoted to the church, and this will be good for me and I can be a help to the church too. And so then when my name was put up, right before my name was put up for consideration, actually my name was never put up for consideration. But what happened was I, you know, started to get wind that there were some concerns by some of the teachers because of who I'd studied with and what I did. And And I was asked to come in and sit down with a good portion of the faculty in ancient Scripture while they could ask me questions about my belief in Bible scholarship and things like that. And so the very first question that was asked by the moderator, he said, okay, I want you to tell us how do your views on the Hebrew Bible differ from your Professor David Wright's?

John Dehlin [00:57:54] Okay, wait, this is to apply for a BYU job?

David Bokovoy [00:57:57] Yes. I'm getting.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] This is a panel of scholars.

David Bokovoy [00:57:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] Evaluating you.

David Bokovoy [00:58:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:58:01] Names we would know, people we would know.

David Bokovoy [00:58:03] Yes, okay. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:58:05] And I'll only mention because I don't. Because everyone has a story and there are two sides to every story. And I don't want to make anyone look bad who, you know, that doesn't have a chance to tell their side of it. But. So the only one I will mention is Brian Hoglet, the very famous Book of Abraham scholar. Brian. And I, he. Brian is one of my dearest, closest friends in the world. And when he heard about what they were going to do that they. And they didn't, I was the only person that they would suggest they. No, I should take that. There was only one other person that they were doing this to, and it was Cory Crawford, who had studied Hebrew Bible at Harvard and he was interested in coming to byu.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] So this was not a traditional part of the process.

David Bokovoy [00:58:48] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] It was an inquisition or something.

David Bokovoy [00:58:51] An orthodoxy hearing is really what it was. And I, And Brian Hoglid was so offended that they were doing this to me, especially in light of all of my years in church education. I mean, I'm being asked questions on my orthodoxy by BYU religion professors who haven't been in church education as long as I have. Right. I mean, I just. And it. And, and he was so offended. He said, he, he came to me and he said, I'm not going to come at a protest. And I said, I said, oh, Brian, appreciate that so much.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Please come.

David Bokovoy [00:59:25] But exactly. I said, I said, I could really use a friend there. And he said, he said, I'll think about it. He said, but if I go, I'm not going to say anything. And to join in with their questions and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] Okay, really quick.

David Bokovoy [00:59:38] And he did. And I should say he did. He did come. And he was. He's just a wonderful person. He's just been so kind and supportive. Great.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] I imagine he could risk his own status by, by expressing concern.

David Bokovoy [00:59:53] I'm sure there was. I'm sure there was a, you know, a willing part of.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] Thank you for joining us. Today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [01:00:30] This morning I, I went to the woods to see what I could learn. It taught me to listen to the music of our land Singing all about this city going to hell.

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 1015

Guest [00:00:08] Don't know why I can't feel the morning don't know why I can't feel the dawn Everything inside me is lonesome But I don't feel nothing at all I don't feel nothing at all I got a wild, a wild, wild heart

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and, and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Guest [00:01:06] Don't know why you want me gone Everything inside of me is lonesome I don't feel nothing at all I don't feel nothing at all I got a

John Dehlin [00:01:23] wild, a wild, wild, wild okay, so backing up. Had you done anything controversy? Had you been on a. No unapproved podcast? Had you published edgy things on blogs? Had you, you know.

Departure from BYU and Professional Fallout

David Bokovoy [00:01:38] Well, apparently that was one of the things that happened because I remember one of it was really tough for me because one of the, One of the teachers that one of the professors that was there is a. I'll say he's a man, is a man who I developed a good friendship with. And he, I came to him immediately and I said, help me know what I can say and cannot say, so that I don't. This is really important to me and I don't want to cause any concerns. And so I really had this open relationship, very good friendship with him. And when it was his turn to ask questions, he just blindsided me completely. And he said, you know, how come if I search and Google your name and Joseph Smith, one of the first things that comes up is you talking on a blog saying that Joseph Smith, in your mind, could be both pious fraud and profit.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] Where had you, where had you made that comment?

David Bokovoy [00:02:37] I don't even know.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] By common consent?

David Bokovoy [00:02:40] I don't know. I mean, Mormon discussions board or fair board? I don't know. I don't know where it was even. I really, I went back and tried to find it, and I couldn't even find it. So I don't, I don't know. But I, I responded, I said, you know, that's not language that I use of Joseph Smith. I don't refer to him as a pious fraud. That's Dan Vogel's theory. And I've had many conversations with Dan Vogel. And so I could see myself saying, if you're correct, Dan and Joseph Smith, in a sense, was a pious fraud, I would still believe that he was a prophet.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] Yeah, but there's a level of sophistication and context there.

David Bokovoy [00:03:17] So then one of the other teachers, after I explained that, said, well, don't you think that if one of our BYU students were to search and Google that and see that it could cause some concerns and that their teacher is saying that? And I said. I said, no. I said, just the opposite. I said it would show that student that their professor understands these critical theories, has read them all, is completely familiar with them, and still believes. And I think that would help. I said, but I'm not active on social media like that any longer because I want to. I think it's best to help people in my. In my publications, in my actual teaching. And then that same professor, who was a good friend of mine, he said, Then he asked. And he asked me the question. He said, david, do you believe God wants you to be here at byu? And I thought, man, that is the worst question. How can you ask that? Because if I say, well, no, it's not God I want to be here, then you're replying to a religious institution. Right? How can you say no to that? No, God. What if you say yes? How arrogant is that?

John Dehlin [00:04:30] You know, the will of God.

David Bokovoy [00:04:31] Yeah, the will of God. And God wanted you, wants to be here. And I'm like, I'm like, you know, I don't pretend to have access to the heavenly mind on this or any other topic. I said, but I'll tell you that when David Wright was fired from BYU and subsequently excommunicated from the Church, it left the impression amongst serious Bible scholars that neither Brigham Young University nor the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints itself could withstand historical critical scrutiny. That was not a problem for us in the 90s. Now with the information accessibility that the Internet provides, it's an issue. And so, you know, if. If I want to be able to continue to publish on the Book of Mormon and read it with it through an ancient lens and show all these wonderful things, but a secular institution is not going to hire a Mormon apologist to come teach Bible. And I feel that God opened the door for me to be able to pursue this degree, to help, to be a. To be a. An influence, to help. And so I guess I would have to say, yes, that I. I think God does want me to do this. But if you decide otherwise, then no hard feelings. That was my answer. And anyway, I thought it went really well. As well as could be expected.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] This is in 2012ish.

David Bokovoy [00:05:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] David Bakavoy's orthodox hearing.

David Bokovoy [00:06:01] Yeah, exactly. 2012. So then what. And they. I found out that they did not even put my name in to allow the faculty to vote upon, notwithstanding all the years in church education and everything else. And was.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] What department would this have been?

David Bokovoy [00:06:21] Ancient scripture. Byu.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] Is this Wilford Griggs? Was he still there?

David Bokovoy [00:06:28] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:06:29] I don't know. But it was. John. The most devastating thing I'd ever gone through in my life. I. I felt like somebody had died.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] You didn't even get submitted?

David Bokovoy [00:06:41] Yeah. And it. I felt like something.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Did they tell you why? How'd you find out?

David Bokovoy [00:06:45] A friend of mine told me and that it. That it went down that way. And so I immediately sent some emails that I was just said, you know, this is. This is unacceptable. And it's got pretty fiery with those faculty members. And I just, I mean, to not even be given a chance to have your name presented for a vote. I felt like somebody had died.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] But nobody who sat you down and said, this is why this is what happened. This is our concern.

David Bokovoy [00:07:19] No.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] And was there a position open?

David Bokovoy [00:07:21] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] What was the position?

David Bokovoy [00:07:24] Professor of Ancient Scripture?

John Dehlin [00:07:26] A couple.

David Bokovoy [00:07:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] You know, was there some other awesome person applying?

David Bokovoy [00:07:32] Yeah. Yep. A good friend of mine who I helped get hired. But it, you know, and I, you know, I. I don't want to say, oh, big bad byu. Right. The reality is, you know, it's an institution. They get to choose who they want to hire. They don't hire. And it's. They have that. They have that. But in light of my training and what I did and what I had hoped for, what I'd spent my life doing, it was like somebody had died in my life. And I. I stopped eating. I couldn't sleep. I just. It was. I went through a deep mourning process. And this is really neat story, though, because what happened was my friends in Boston knew what had happened, and my wife wasn't in town the weekend that it went down, and I drove up to the airport to pick her up, and I pulled along the Salt Lake airport for her to jump in, and we looked across the other side, and two of our dearest friends from Boston were there, and we didn't even know. They came in for a quick visit, Mike and Jen Thomas. And I yelled out to them, and they knew what had happened as everybody did and they felt so bad for me. They ran over and hugged us and embraced us. And Jen said, what are you, what are you doing right now? And I said, we're not doing anything. She said, will you come talk to my dad? And her dad is Ron Walker, the famous Mormon historian who did the, you know, participate in the Mountain Meadow Massacre book and others. And, and I knew Ron, I'd met him a couple of times and I said, yeah, I'll go talk to him. So I came to Ron and I told him the whole story and showed him some emails and things that went on and he's like, you have to understand these people right now are trembling in their boots because if you were to just show all of this, it would be really bad. It'd be like front page news sort of thing. He said, I would advise you to write one more email and tell them that you're not at war with them. He said, it's the only way forward. And it really hit me. It was just a beautiful moment with Ron. And then Ron said this. He said BYU did the same thing to me. I was in church education and it happened to me as well. He said, and it's the best thing that ever happened to me. And the day will come, David, when you'll realize that down the road that you will not be able to do the things that you want to do that you need to do. If you had stayed there and had that experience. So it's going to be okay. Amazing experience and that I'm very grateful for. And I took that advice and I wrote them the email and just said basically that we're not at war. And I, you know, I disagree with your decision but I want you to know that I'm at peace with it and I, you know, happy to let it go. And you know, that was it, that was it. But, but the problem was is that I was still a full time employee of church education system but as teaching high school students doing a job that required a bachelor's degree and it, I just, was already, I just threw myself into that work and trying to help teenagers to the best of my ability. And I've always loved teenagers. So it was, it was good and I ended up developing a real passion for what I was doing. But it was still always hard. I would remember I'd see like CES friends that didn't have any background in ancient scripture or whatnot, but they were brought into the now BYU professors because what they did was non threatening to the institution and and they're off going to the Jerusalem center and they're getting money to go to academic conferences and Bible scholarship and stuff like that. And I'm in the same department, just, just. Well, I'm in the same program, just different departments, and with the training, and I would have to take days off, take vacation days and pay for my own way to get to these Bible scholar conferences. And I'd get there and, you know, I'd see some of these by you guys that they'd get there and they'd go to one session on Mormonism, and then they'd spend the rest of the time, like, golfing or traveling or, you know, just seeing the sights. And I'd pay my own way and take vacation day, and I'd sit there and I'd go from one run from one session to another. And it was, it was devastating to see that and to not be able to have your dreams come about that you'd worked so hard for. It was real. That was, I was still very hard for me, but still I just threw myself into trying to help teenagers and doing the seminary experience.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] It was 2012 was a really interesting time. I remember it because that's the year that the Maxwell Institute really targeted me through Daniel Peterson and Louis Midgley and Greg Smith. And that ended in Daniel Peterson getting kicked out of the Maximalists, who kind of fired. And, and so, I don't know. Do you think. And that was when. That was right before the essays really came out. And there was just a lot of, There was a lot of growing adversity or criticism of apologists of Mormon, apologists of Mormon scholarship, of the church's lack of transparency, challenges to the church's truth claims. I'm imagining CES letter came out a little bit after this. 2012 was a really kind of volatile time.

David Bokovoy [00:13:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Were you feeling that? Were you even exposed to that?

David Bokovoy [00:13:06] Yeah, it was. And that actually ended up leading to kind of some problems with my good friends Dan Peterson and William Hamblin, because. I was totally opposed to the hit piece that was coming out on you. I just was like, that's not okay. I, I, and I blogged about it and, and that this apologetics is not true scholarship and, you know, did some things like that. And that, of course, is when it. My relationship started to change a bit with them.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] And that was after you had been denied this position?

David Bokovoy [00:13:45] Yeah, that at that point, I kind of felt like I could be a little bit more open with my views. And, you know, I mean, the worst case scenario is that they might get fired from seminary institutes and then go take a position as a professor somewhere. So I still want. I was still pretty open with my views but I still tried to be very much a positive influence to help build the church and defend it. But I have always been really opposed to an attack aggressive style, apologetic. I just, to me that is one of the, it's the antithesis to everything I believe in that religion should be. And so I was very vocal in that and that led to some problems. But I guess you mentioned the co. Founder of Interpreter because that's kind of when this whole thing went down. So that is an exaggeration that I'm responsible for.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] Sure, I said it tongue in cheek.

David Bokovoy [00:14:39] Yeah, I think I joke about that once in a while just because it's funny. But no, I guess what happened is that after.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] So Daniel Peterson wants to say he wasn't fired from BYU and it had nothing to do with me. Those are two things I've seen him like to say a lot.

David Bokovoy [00:14:55] Well, the first thing is, is that Dan was not fired from the Maxwell Institute. As far as I know, Daniel Peterson is still collecting half of his paycheck from the Maxwell Institute and half of it regular from his, you know, department that he's in. So he wasn't fired from byu. He was it. That is a misnomer. It, it's just not true. He wasn't fired from the Maxwell Institute. He was asked to, you know, they were going to make a change in the editor position for the, for a journal which happens all the time. So it, it's, it was blown out of proportion of really what was taking place. But that's good to know.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] I didn't know he was still funded by the maxilling.

David Bokovoy [00:15:34] I mean I, I shouldn't. I heard, last I heard it was, that was the case. So he wasn't fired. But it's, he, he has presented it that way and others have as well. But anyway, I, I don't want to talk negatively about Dan or any other person in any way, shape or form. I still have very fond feelings for Dan. I think he's a very good person. I disagree with him but I'm sure he disagrees with me and my. What I do. But that's okay. But. So what happened was that when that went down I had only heard the narrative from, you know, Dan and the others perspective and I already had a. Was not happy with BYU of course. And so I thought wouldn't it be great to start an independent academic, academically minded journal that delved into Mormon scripture and did some things like that and be wonderful and, you know, maybe bring Dan in is to start the editor as the editor of that. And so I sent an email with, to Dan and Bill and, you know, another friend and just said, hey, what do you guys think about this? Want to do that? And they're like, hey, we should sit down and talk about this. And so that was really all my role in the whole thing. Then we sat down and ate famously at Olive Garden and laid out this idea, came up with the name Mormon Interpreter and Journal and things like that. And I gave them the first piece, something that I had written and hadn't published to start it. And part of it was to help my friend Dan. Part of it was that I really, it wasn't so much I wanted to stick it to byu. It wasn't that at all. It's just that I wanted to see stuff happen independent of byu because I didn't feel like it was an institution that could really support good scholarship on the Bible and in the Book of Mormon and those things. Well, in the course of the meeting, it became clear that the vision that Dan and others had for the journal, that it would be the FARMS Review, that they would continue to deal with apologetics and book reviews and things like that. And I decided that's not something I wanted to be involved with. So I never had my name on the editor board or, you know, I was there with it when it was created. But I'm certainly not a co founder or anything like that. But it's kind of funny to joke about now.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] By that point, had you formed a view of old style Mormon apologetics? And if so, can you share what that view became? In what ways were you critical of old school Mormon apologetics? And then the second part of the question is, did you start forming a vision of new apologetics, of pastoral apologetics or neo apologetics or whatever you might want to call it? Oh, absolutely, you must. That's kind of like a fulcrum. You were kind of right there.

David Bokovoy [00:18:23] Well, and one of the things that that happened is that I got to know Brent Metcalfe better and, you know, I had, you know, from, you know, being taught by, you know, the way that I had. I mean, I looked or when in my early years I looked at Brent Metcalf as this like, dark, nefarious influence or something like that without knowing it. And then, then I read a scholarship and I'm like, wow, this is really good stuff and it's wonderful stuff. And then I got to know him personally. And I just fell in love with the guy. He's just such a wonderful person. And we became very good friends. And I saw the way that he had been treated.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] Meaning what?

David Bokovoy [00:19:04] Aggressively. And, you know, the way that he'd been made out to be this villain,

John Dehlin [00:19:08] the butt head thing that Midgley and others had made fun of him in the writings.

David Bokovoy [00:19:13] Yeah, that he'd been made out to be this villain. And here he is, this wonderful, extraordinary human being who's simply devoted to scholarship and truth. And of course that bothered me. And, you know, I was bothered. I hadn't read the piece that was coming out with you, but I could imagine what it would be. I read it later when it was released through interpreter and in whatever form it was, and I. That's offensive to me deeply, always has been.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] What is?

David Bokovoy [00:19:39] To attack individuals, to go after individuals and their families and their life and to question their orthodoxy and their commitment to the church as a way of defending the faith. That to me is incredibly offensive. And the antithesis of what true religion should be about, which is ministry and love and kindness and service. So, yeah, that was very problematic to me and I did hope that there would be a. You know, and then I became good friends with Terrell and Fiona Givens and others who I connected with, their style and approach that they were doing. And yeah, I felt that that was a much better way. But in the end, you know, I just had reached. Was starting to reach a point in my life where I realized that, I don't know, I don't know, just reached a point where it was becoming a little bit more difficult to figure out where I fit into the whole picture.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] Yeah. Really quick, what did you. You know, when you're at BYU in the early 90s, Hugh Nibley's like this legend and he's supposed to be one of the most brilliant people ever and the top notch scholar and all that. Fast forward a couple decades and it's like, I don't know, his footnotes weren't so great and he was kind of kooky and there wasn't a lot of substance. You know, people like Hugh Nibley become undermined under the microscope of history as credible scholars when they're doing Mormon apologetics. And then you have Sorensen and you have John Sorensen. You have the sort of taper defense that maybe it wasn't a horse, maybe it was a tapir. It's all this kind of pseudo scholarship done by BYU scholars, but trying to justify and explain things in ways that would be you know, a laughingstock. Even John Gee's work, kind of a laughingstock to any non Mormon scholar in the same field. Had you developed opinions about that type? Well, I don't know what you would call that. Pseudo scholarship. I don't know what you call it.

David Bokovoy [00:21:42] Yeah, I mean John Gee and Kerry Milstein, their work on the Book of Abraham was just antithetical to what I was doing and trying to show that the Book of Abraham is not an ancient document, that it's something that Joseph Smith creates nonetheless can be interpreted as inspired scripture. I mean that's the exact opposite antithesis. Right. So that, that immediately brought me into conflict, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] You didn't really respect that work of them?

David Bokovoy [00:22:12] No, no, no, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] Why?

David Bokovoy [00:22:16] Well, because it was, you know, I just, to me it was not addressing the most important issues that illustrated the truthfulness about the Book of Abraham's origin. So things are like that. But, and I'll say that I, at this point in my life I've gotten rid of all of my farms books and my Nibbly books and everything like that, except for I, there's one that I keep and I. Approaching Zion. Approaching Zion, Yeah, I love Nibley. I, you know, don't see eye to eye with most of his apologetic work. But Approaching Zion, that is a, that is a very important book to me and I would think for a lot of Latter Day Saints. So that's still on my show.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] But the enterprise of trying to use kind of pseudoscience to justify the scientific merit of Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, you.

David Bokovoy [00:23:08] Oh no, because it.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] Not a fan.

David Bokovoy [00:23:09] No, because we have to be consistent as scholars. Right. You can't. And unfortunately what a lot of apologetics will do is they'll, the apologetic take will, will be one of picking and choosing points of scholarship that tend to beef up the, the traditional claims of Mormonism while ignoring all of the evidence that works against it. And in my mind, a good scholar has to be consistent. You can't pick and choose things, especially when those to support one's traditional religious narrative.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] That's kind of antithetical to what scholarship is trying to be.

David Bokovoy [00:23:44] Yeah, right, Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Okay. So when you envision the Mormon interpreter, it wasn't doing a lot of that stuff.

David Bokovoy [00:23:50] Yeah, I didn't, no, I wouldn't say that. I envisioned a journal that would be, be different and would definitely like do things like my publications had in the past. And the first one that I, that I submitted, which was like reading the Book of Mormon through an ancient lens or something and showing it how beautiful it is to come alive in these. These various areas.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:24:13] But yeah, that's. That's always been my. That was my passion as an apologist, not to. Not to going around the way of that. Things have traditionally gone in our community, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] So there's ad hominem, there's the pseudoscience, and then there's kind of the gathering. A lot of apologists would gather evidence on people and then submit that information to their bishops or ecclesiastical leaders to try and get them excommunicated. That's what happened to me. And it's happened to a lot. Did you know about that at the time?

David Bokovoy [00:24:45] And it happened to me. It happened to me. I started. That's when, you know, I started having.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] Before this. This orthodoxy hearing.

David Bokovoy [00:24:53] No, afterwards.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Okay, okay.

David Bokovoy [00:24:55] It was afterwards because then I became a little bit more open. Talking about online, about.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Did you start blogging?

David Bokovoy [00:25:00] Did you start. Yeah, I did some blogging and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] A lot of people are wondering what happened to your blog. Why'd you start it? Why'd you stop it?

David Bokovoy [00:25:06] Yeah, I, I stopped it around the time of the November 2015 policy.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] And you started it around 2012 when you probably.

David Bokovoy [00:25:18] Yeah, about three years. Yeah, about three.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] You're like, O, I'm not. My dream of BYU has died.

David Bokovoy [00:25:24] Yeah. Everything that was there to, to defend the church and to show that, like, we could accept critical models of historical scholarship. But here's a way of doing this and still being a faithful, absolute believer. I mean, I'm still a seminary teacher, for goodness sake. I mean, I. But what was the blog called?

John Dehlin [00:25:41] Do you remember?

David Bokovoy [00:25:43] Let's see, what was that one? When Gods were Men.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] Okay, that's right.

David Bokovoy [00:25:48] When gods Were Men. And so I. Yeah, so what happened was.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Let's see, where were we start blogging 2012?

David Bokovoy [00:26:04] Oh, I was going to say. So then some of the things that I had said in an effort to like, expose people to critical scholarship, but at the same time then offering a way out of things of, like, started. Things like that started be. To be sent time and time again to the church office building because they're like, hey, look, there's this guy. He's religious educator and working with the youth. And look at these things that he's saying. And I'm looking at him like, this isn't even controversial. This is accepted by all scholars. We have to address this.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] What types of things?

David Bokovoy [00:26:32] Oh, for example, like, I was talking once about historical Jesus and the fact that, you know, references in the Gospel of Matthew to Jesus establishing a church are anachronistic. Jesus wasn't concerned with the church. Jesus was concerned, wasn't concerned about the family. In fact, they even talked about that. That he, you know, from. If you. The evidence is very clear in my mind that he didn't even believe that marriage is something that would continue on into the next. Into the next realm. So I'm starting to talk about these things, but I. But then I'm like, but it's okay. Latter Day Saints can handle this, because here's some scriptures that will help you make sense of this and trying to provide a reconciliation. But unfortunately, those were the things that would then be sent to the church office building. And I have nothing but positive feelings, honestly, John, about the wonderful men that I interacted with in administration and church education. I realized that these are men who did not understand my scholarship, who were concerned at times with things that were being said or this. And they did everything that they could to help me keep my job. They really did. And I'm very grateful for that because I loved my job and I loved what I was doing, and I have nothing but positive feelings towards them. So it was. But it was. But that got exhausting for me and for them to constantly, you know, deal with this. And I was, you know, just kindly told, okay, you need to make a decision here. Either you're going to be a seminary teacher or you're going to be a critical biblical scholar. You can't do both. And I had always felt like I could do both. And so it was at that point where I just said, okay, I'll be a seminary teacher. And I stopped blogging and doing things like that.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] Was that after your daughter had come out to you and you had written some blog posts about LGBT stuff?

David Bokovoy [00:28:30] Yeah, that was after that.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] Do you want to talk about that?

David Bokovoy [00:28:32] Sure. Yeah, we should jump into that.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] Okay. Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:28:35] So I. Up to. I was absolutely. Yeah, I had shifted paradigms and done things, but I mean, still at Alta High School, still at Alta or Jordan, I can't remember which one.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] Commute. You must have got to resent that commute.

David Bokovoy [00:28:53] Yeah. But then it was great, though, because I. What had. This was great, I should mention this, is that I. Right when the BYU thing exploded, the University of Utah needed help with Hebrew, and so they brought me in as a. As a Hebrew professor, instructor at. In the language and literature program. And I did that for a year. And then that opened the door to do a postdoc in Mormon studies, and I was able to teach the Book of Mormon as literature.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] Bob Goldstein okay, you did that.

David Bokovoy [00:29:21] Yeah. So I taught the Book of Mormon as literature, which was the first time that the Book of Mormon had ever been analyzed in a secular academic context for an entire semester. It was a wonderful experience. I loved being at the U. It was great. And then from at that point, and then when the you thing was starting to dry up, then I was contacted by Utah State University, and I was hired as their online professor of Bible and Jewish studies. So I always kept my foot both in devotional teaching and in academia, which is. So I felt like I could do both. I could do both very successfully, and it's something I wanted to do, but, you know, administrators didn't feel that way, and that's their right. There's their stewardship. And so I committed to do that now then with my daughter and how that. That came about. I had had a. A number of gay students, of course, over the years that I loved and tried to help make space for, not only in the class, but in our community and in our church. And then when the November 2015 policy came out and I read it, I was devastated beyond words. I could not. I cannot even describe. It was way worse than the BYU experience for me. I remember, John, that Sunday morning, I got up early after, you know, the thing. I can't remember what came out on Thursday or whatever it was.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Do you want to talk about your daughter coming out to you first?

David Bokovoy [00:30:52] This is after.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Okay, okay, okay.

David Bokovoy [00:30:54] It's connected. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Okay. Got it.

David Bokovoy [00:30:55] Sorry. So this is. It's. Glad you asked that, because it's actually important. A lot of people think, oh, my goodness. David Bogavoy. God, I'm sorry to refer to myself in the third person, but David Bagavoy, he was hurt by the church because he had a gay daughter. That's not what happened.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:31:12] Yeah, that is not what happened. I. It. We already talked about how I become a Mormon ally. A really strong Mormon ally had gone from homophobia to we have to do everything we can to love and embrace LGBTQ people and help them become members of the. Be successful, happy members of the church. And man. Then when that November 2000 policy came out, I remember that Sunday morning sitting down at my computer and I read an article where this. A person. I can't remember who it was, but he wrote in response to Elder Christofferson's statement that this was done to protect the children. And the piece that this man wrote, he said, where was the protection when I was praying to God every night as a child to please change me, change me, change Me. And I just sat there reading that and John. And I wept like a child. I mean, I just cried and cried. I could not stop crying. And I knew that this policy was wrong and it just hurt so bad. And it was at that point where I act for the first time ever in my life where I said, maybe, maybe I can't go on as a religious educator. Maybe I cannot. Maybe what I am doing is not going to help people. And I'd say that's the biggest faith crisis I ever faced in my life, is what I devoted my whole life to. Is this a healthy, good thing to do in light of this? And I went to administrators in church education and I said, I have to be completely open and honest with you. And I wanted to use language that they would understand and they would. And I said, I know with every fiber of my being that this policy is wrong, that it is not of God. And they said, well, what are we gonna do with you now? And we talked and talked and they were, they were very kind and loving and trying to help me out and I, you know, trying to figure this out. Well, my middle daughter Rebecca was studying at Utah State at the time and I was the online professor part time work for Utah State University. And I had to go out for a meeting and we went out to lunch and, or dinner. Sorry, went out to dinner and she'd been away for about a semester. And she said, dad, I want to talk to you. And she said, I could not ask for better parents for who I am. And she said, your openness of the pain that you are going through over this policy, even at the possible loss of your career, has given me the courage to share with you who I am. I am gay. And it was. My heart dropped because of the implications of all of that. But at the same time, John, I was so happy because this is a daughter who struggled with depression and various challenges and throughout her life and she was able to be authentic and who she was and open up. And I was thrilled. And so we talked and we talked and we talked and I said, okay, well how are you? How do you want to come out to the family and let everybody know about this? And she said, I don't know, but dad, but I don't want to like write an email and say, hey grandma, Grandpa, I'm gay, and you know, sit down and have a big family conference. She said, I really. You've been so vocal on social media about your opposition. If you could do anything, it'd have you just, you do the announcement on Facebook like that about it, because that would show our family that, you know, hey, it's just no big deal I got a gay daughter sort of thing. And that it's not a big deal. I said, are you sure that's what you want to do? She said, yeah. And I said, okay, well, we at least have to call your mom. And we called my wife and she was thrilled and happy that Rebecca was coming out and we were very supportive. We told her what we were going to do. She said, okay. And so my daughter and I had my iPhone in the car and it was dark by that time, of course. And I. I sat there and I said, okay, how does this sound? And I said, unforeseen blessing for being so vocal in my feelings. Turns out I have an 18 year old gay daughter. And I showed it to my daughter and I said, what do you think of that? And she said, dad, I think that's perfect. It gets the message across. Yeah, post it. And I said, okay. I took the phone back and I added the line, sorry, thank you, God, for this incredible gift. And hit post. And we embraced and cried together in the car. And it was a. It was a beautiful moment. And I am so grateful for my critical studies of scholarship because it changed me. I just. It's because of that that I became an ally. And it's because of that that I was able to see religion and church differently and see my daughter's sexuality as a gift from God. And it was extraordinary. But after that, John, I experienced, for the first time in my life, depression. I'd never gone through it before. And I wasn't depressed that she was gay. I was depressed because I loved the church so deeply, so passionately, and I knew that my daughter would never have a place there and that I'd spent my life trying to help the youth of the church have that place and to find that spirituality in the context of Mormonism. And that would never be available to my daughter. And that was devastating to me.

Family, a Gay Child, and Reckoning with Church Policy

John Dehlin [00:37:14] So. So the church would say she has a place. She can be celibate or get in a mixed. Mixed orientation marriage.

David Bokovoy [00:37:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Why. Why did you not think she had a place when those were options? Because the church was extending.

David Bokovoy [00:37:26] Because I. I wanted my daughter to experience love. I wanted my daughter to experience a fullness of family and happiness and joy. And in light of where the policy was and the direction of that, I knew that the church would. And the theology, the teachings would never be a safe place for her. And that was incredibly painful for me. In light of my love for the church. And I, the church would say she

John Dehlin [00:37:55] should draw near to Christ, she should pray more, she should use her righteousness to overcome these feelings of same sex attraction.

David Bokovoy [00:38:02] It's just not something that I believe or accept. So that put me at.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] Did she consider those things?

David Bokovoy [00:38:10] No, no, no. And I was driving in the car one day, struggling with these feelings of depression, and I had an epiphany. And you call it a revelation epiphany, whatever it is. But it was the strongest conviction that came to me that I'd felt up to that point in my life. And it was. There's a difference between the church versus the kingdom. Jesus was all about the kingdom. It's all about making heaven on earth. And I believe that is where Jesus and Joseph Smith are actually most inspired when they talk about, let's not be concerned about heaven as much as the next light, but let's make heaven on earth now as a community. To me, that's the goal. And I realized that the church is a tool that can help people that fit a specific mold contribute to the growth of that heaven on earth for humanity. But the church is not the goal that heaven on earth is the goal for individuals, families, communities. And I just this strong epiphany that it was now my responsibility as a father with a gay daughter to help her find heaven on earth in other ways because the church would not be a tool that she could use. And that provided incredible comfort in that the depression was gone. And that is a very fundamental part of my testimony to this day is that religion is most inspired when it is teaching us to create communities and families that are seeking to build heaven on earth now.

John Dehlin [00:40:05] So church was made for man, not man for the church.

David Bokovoy [00:40:08] Yeah, yeah. And it was. And I'd always thought in those terms, but.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] And woman. Sorry, man and woman.

David Bokovoy [00:40:15] Thank you. Yeah, yeah. And it just. And it just. I'd always thought in those terms, but it like.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] And non. Non Gender specific. Non binary as well.

David Bokovoy [00:40:23] Absolutely. So it just. But it came with such conviction. I just can't even articulate it. That it. Yeah. So that. And that helped me later because it was shortly.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] I got you out of your depression.

David Bokovoy [00:40:35] Yeah, absolutely. And gave me a new goal, new vision as a father, as a. As a religious educator and everything. It just, it just changed everything for me. And it was shortly after that time period where my son, because of these things, no longer want. He was, I think, 15 at the time. He no longer wanted to attend. And I'm like, son, you have to Attend. You got to come with us. I mean, this is what we do as a family. And I'm a religious educator. I need you to be there. And I remember he got frustrated one day on a Sunday, and he said, dad, you can't force your religion upon me.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] How long ago was this?

David Bokovoy [00:41:08] This was two years ago.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:41:11] And 16. 20.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] 16.

David Bokovoy [00:41:14] Yeah. And he. And it was. And when he said, you can't force your religion upon me, and that hit me. I thought, well, I guess he's right in a sense. And then I just, what am I going to do with this? And my response then, yeah, a Mormon

John Dehlin [00:41:29] man's gonna be like, what? Yeah, I can. What are you talking about? Wait a minute.

David Bokovoy [00:41:33] Well, that's.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] I can do whatever I want.

David Bokovoy [00:41:35] I know.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] I'm a Mormon priesthood elder.

David Bokovoy [00:41:37] And that's actually what I said to him. In essence, you're gonna love this. I said, when I thought of it, and then I said, well, son, yes, I can. I said, and I can. And I will force my religion upon you until you are 18 years old. But then I added. I said, but let me tell you what my religion is. My religion is love. My religion is service. My religion is the development of the mind. My religion is learning to care for other human beings as much as we care for ourselves. My religion is learning to care for the environment. I said, mormonism provides the community and a faith group to practice my religion. But that's not my religion. My religion are these other things. And if Mormonism isn't working for you, I'm not going to make you go to church, but we will have to find other ways for you to live our religion. And he has fully embraced that. I mean, he is. He just got back. He did. He goes up to the University of Utah Cancer Institute and he. He volunteers up there. He just got back. He went last summer to a community in need in Peru and helped with building projects and teach high. And he taught hygiene to the local people of the community. He's raising the money on his own. He's trying. I'm trying to help him with the process. He's doing this again with his sister, my youngest daughter. Next year they're going to Thailand and. Yeah, so they are. And they're just wonderful young people are just doing so many great things and. And flourishing in our religion independent of. Of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] So religion of love, service, that kind of thing.

David Bokovoy [00:43:12] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:43:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] So how has your faith and church participation evolved over the past couple years then?

David Bokovoy [00:43:20] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] And your relationship with the church education system yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:43:25] So what happened then is. I guess we're coming to the end, huh? It's been a little.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] No hurry. Take as much time as you want.

David Bokovoy [00:43:31] Well, it's.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] And I've got follow up questions.

David Bokovoy [00:43:32] Good, good. So I. So my wife stopped attending after the November 2015 policy. So then, you know, my. My. My daughter Rebecca, my gay daughter, she had moved out, was with a transgender partner and that we love and embraced and became family with, but moved out. But then my oldest daughter returned missionary. She served in Chile. But my two teenagers and my wife, those that were home, stopped attending. So I continued to go by myself and to continue teaching church education. And I did that for quite a

John Dehlin [00:44:20] while now, some would say you had to, to keep your job in your mind.

David Bokovoy [00:44:24] That's certainly true.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] Other things.

David Bokovoy [00:44:26] That's certainly true, but. That's certainly true. But I. But I wanted to. I mean, I. I mean, even to this day, I mean, I just, I. I love church education. I love the LDS Church. So it's not. It wasn't just, oh, you have to do this, keep your job. It was. But that is certainly reality. And I did face it. What. What should I do in light of my family situation, in light of my convictions? I mean, and I spent a lot of time with church administrators trying to figure this out. And it just reached a point this last year that I just realized I didn't feel like I could continue to do that with integrity.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] Which part?

David Bokovoy [00:45:14] To continue to teach in church education. My views on scripture had evolved to such a point that it would. It just. And my feelings about the church and the way that LGBTQ people are treated, I just. I had two things that happened to me. I should share that. One was watching the movie Selma. And you've seen that film, of course. Yeah. And I remember, for me, the most powerful part of the movie was when Dr. Martin Luther King called upon religious people, men and women from all sorts of backgrounds. If you. If you had any passion for civil rights and social justice and please come join us. We need you. And you remember the scene. It's beautiful. You know, Catholic nuns and Jewish rabbis and evangelical ministers all start coming in, and they join those protesters hand in hand and begin to march across that famous bridge. And I sat there watching that, and at first, I was so touched. And then, John, I just felt devastated because I thought, where are my people? And I knew where my people were and I knew why we weren't there. It's because, you know, at that point in time, you know, Harold B. Lee had written to Ernest Wilkinson at byu and who allowed an African American student into the Brigham Young University. And Harold B. Lee's response was, if the daughter of mine ends up marrying a Negro, I will hold you back personally accountable. And that's where we were. We were with, you know, Ezra Taft Benson and his discussions about the civil rights movement, that it was a communist ploy. That's why we weren't there. And I realized, I will never, ever allow religious authority figures to interfere in my own quest to stand up for civil rights and social justice and my deep spiritual convictions. I cannot do that, and they never will. And then it was another. Another experience, too. We were actually at the BYU Art Art exhibit for Norman Rockwell, and I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] Oh, I forgot about that.

David Bokovoy [00:47:24] Yeah, it was great. It was wonderful. And we were there, and the president of BYU gave the. It was on film, but he gave the. The introduction to the exhibit, and he praised Norman Rockwell for his contributions to the civil rights movement.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Movement.

David Bokovoy [00:47:42] And I just sat there thinking, my goodness, at the time that Norman Rockwell was actually producing that work, a president, Brigham Young University, could not have been allowed to step up and praise him. And I thought, the day will come when LGBT rights and things like that are praised at Brigham Young University and step forward and embraced by the church. If it survives. That will have to happen. But I can't wait that long. I cannot wait that long. And even though I've devoted so much of my life and my education and everything to it, I just. I can't. I couldn't do that. And so it was at that point, as the. As I started to think about these things more and more, and, you know, hearing about suicides, I. I watched Believer for the first time, like, at. Like, just a couple nights ago. Oh, just a couple nights ago.

Prison Education Work and Life After CES

John Dehlin [00:48:34] Fun.

David Bokovoy [00:48:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] What's Believer tell those who don't know?

David Bokovoy [00:48:36] Oh, it's the. You're a star in it.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] Yeah, I remember.

Guest [00:48:40] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:48:42] Oh, gosh. What's the guy from Dan Reynolds.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] Dan Reynolds and dragons.

David Bokovoy [00:48:45] Yeah. And then Tyler.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] Tyler Glenn. I met Neon Trees.

David Bokovoy [00:48:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] Especially Dan Reynolds. Journey to become an LGBT Ally.

David Bokovoy [00:48:53] Yeah. It's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] And how Tyler Glenn helped affect that.

David Bokovoy [00:48:55] And in part of it, they talk about a young man who committed suicide after having sexual intercourse at Brigham Young University. And he was one of my students.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Oh.

David Bokovoy [00:49:10] He was one of my students that I taught at alta. And, you know, I just. I just. I cannot support a theology. And there wasn't an LGBT issue with that, but I just. It ties together. I cannot support a theology. And an institution that causes as much as I love, causes so much pain and suffering for people that in my family and friends and people that I love dearly, I just couldn't continue that way. And I finally reached that point about, you know, like I said about last year, and I thought, well, what am I going to do now? I didn't know, but I have to make a change. And it was at that point that a good friend of mine who raised funds through the Utah legislature to run a prison education program for Salt Lake Community College. I was giving a lecture in Salt Lake on the Hebrew prophets and social justice, and she attended. And she came to me afterwards, she said, you know, it's not for everybody, but would you ever be interested in teaching an academic course in the prison? I said, absolutely. That's. That's. That's so me. I would love to do that. And we talked and talked.

John Dehlin [00:50:33] And then, you know, Grant Palmer used to do that.

David Bokovoy [00:50:36] He did for Institute. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That mime. And this is what would be. This was with Salt Lake Community College.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] I know.

David Bokovoy [00:50:42] I mean, I just met teach prisoners, that's all. Yeah, but exactly. And he. Anyway, it was. So there was a need for somebody to come in that the program was kind of in a struggling point, and there was a need for somebody to come in as the director. And she said, I don't know what's going on in your life, but is this something that you could even do? And it was. I looked at it and it was going to be a massive pay cut with an uncertain future as well. And yet I just knew that I had to do something different. It's the right thing to do. I had to leave. And. And so. So I did. And I am now the official director for Salt Lake Community College of Prison Education. And that has become my new ministry. I. It's incredible. I mean, the first time I walked into prison, John, with the women, all the hands of the students were raised, and they said, you know, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're hearing rumors. Is Salt Lake Community College pulling away from prison education? And I assured them, no, that's not the case. I am here to help build the program. We're going to do this. And this woman who was there, she said, oh, and it's an economics course. She said, oh, that's so relieving. Because this is our sanctuary. College higher education. And so I literally run a college campus there in the prison, higher trained faculty and do the administrative work. I'm teaching now. I'm going to teach next Semester there, world religions. And it's incredible. I interview each of the inmates or offenders who want to come into college. I help them register for their classes. And it's incredible the experiences we have a woman who I interviewed over the summer, she's been with the program now for a year, and I handed her student audit report and she's earned a 3.7 GPA. And I turned to this woman and I said, this is incredible. Please understand we are not running a watered down version of college here. What you have accomplished, very few people could accomplish. And it shows that you're really smart. And this woman started to cry, and she said, I did that. I said, you did. You're smart. And in her tears, she said, my parents always told me I was smart, but I never believed them. And I said, your parents are right. You are smart. And she held that paper and she said, I can't wait to show my parents that. And then, you know, same thing over with the men's. You know, I can have story after story, but a man, high gpa, same sort of thing. And he, his response, he got really emotional. He said, who would have thought I had to come to prison to get my college degree? And then he said, but I have to do this. I have to become a different person for my girl. And I am just really grateful that this happened, and it's kind of happened when it did. It's been very difficult to take such a financial cut at this time in a person's life, but I really grateful that it happened and that I have something that I can do now that I feel passionately about and has become my new ministry.

Guest [00:54:11] You.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] You ended your time with CES at 18 years, is that right?

Guest [00:54:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Is there, Is there a time where it would have been, like, qualified for pension, retirement kind of thing?

David Bokovoy [00:54:24] Yeah, 20 years is a lot better.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] So did you consider holding on for another couple years?

David Bokovoy [00:54:29] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] It would have been advantageous for you.

David Bokovoy [00:54:32] Absolutely, I did. And I even considered, of course, because, I mean, I still love the church. I still love the Book of Mormon, still love Joseph Smith. I love the youth that I worked with. But I. And I considered, well, maybe I should just keep going next. I can go another 10, 15 years and just fly under the radar, cash in. Yeah. But I. I can't live that way. I just cannot. I feel too passionate about making a difference in the world and standing up for my convictions. Spiritual, religious, scholarly, everything. I just. I couldn't do that.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] But walking away from all that money and the retirement and the security yeah. Is a huge sacrifice that many people wouldn't be willing to do.

David Bokovoy [00:55:16] Yeah. I'm really very grateful for the absolute support of my wife and my children.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] Has she gone back to work or has she always been working?

David Bokovoy [00:55:25] She's been. She's been working, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:55:27] She has a degree in elementary education. She was a elementary school teacher, but she's done a variety of different things since then. But. Yeah. And I mean, it's. I mean, it's enough to survive and live a nice lifestyle, but to me, that's much more important than money or finances, is being able to help build heaven on earth, that calling, that ministry, and that's my religion.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] A few people are willing to put their money where their mouth is in that way. Did you consider just trying some Division 1 research institution, just putting your resume out and applying to as many universities as you could?

David Bokovoy [00:56:07] Sure. And I could still do that. I don't know what the future holds or even how long my prison education opportunity will last. And that could happen down the future. I'm really happy doing prison education. I can pursue my scholarship and I can do something that I've always felt driven to do, which was do something incredibly practical to help people with their everyday lives and to change the world, which is why I went into CES in the first place.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Guest [00:57:07] This morning I went to the woods to see what I could learn it told me to listen to the the music of our land Singing all about the city going to hell.

Current Beliefs, the Book of Mormon, and Moving Forward

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 1016

David Bokovoy [00:00:08] Don't know why I can't feel the

John Dehlin [00:00:10] morning

David Bokovoy [00:00:12] don't know why I can't feel the dawn Everything inside me is lonesome But I don't feel nothing at all I don't feel nothing at all I got a wild, a wild, wild heart.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and, and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

David Bokovoy [00:01:06] Don't know why you want me gone Everything inside of me is lonesome I don't feel nothing at all I don't feel nothing at all I got a wild, a wild, wild, wild.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] So where has that left you? At the church.

David Bokovoy [00:01:31] So I, I stopped attending in July. I stopped attending.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Of 2018.

David Bokovoy [00:01:37] Yeah, of this year. I, I, I went to my bishop and I just, I just said, look, I said, I love the church, I do. You know, he knows, I mean, I have some serious concerns and issues with it right now, but I said, ultimately I need to be with my family on Sundays, and so I'd like to be released from my calling. And so I, I, and I don't attend now. I, I, and I don't know that I can't see myself ever attending again, despite my love for it. And just, I just, I just can't see that happening because of my convictions.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] What, so that means a loss of, I'm assuming you're not kind of stopping going to church but still believing it's all true. So where have you settled on kind of the basic truth claims of the church, if you're, to whatever extent you're willing to talk about that?

David Bokovoy [00:02:34] Oh, sure. No, I, I mean, I'll start with

John Dehlin [00:02:36] God, like, go through, kind of go

David Bokovoy [00:02:38] down the, you know, I'm, because there's.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] Okay, let me tell you why I'm asking.

David Bokovoy [00:02:43] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] There's a lot of people that lose their faith and then they don't know what. Do I believe? Do I believe anything? Do I still believe in God? Do I still believe in Jesus? Do I still value the scriptures? Do I still hold them as sacred? Do I hold them as symbolic? Do I throw them away as garbage and Iron Age mumbo jumbo? Do I go fully secular. So.

David Bokovoy [00:03:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] What. I. I imagine that you're. You've been so thoughtful about these issues. Your paradigm shift yet again, might be useful to people. So that's why I'm asking you.

David Bokovoy [00:03:15] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] To kind of let people know how someone as thoughtful as you has settled on these prime questions.

David Bokovoy [00:03:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Starting with God.

David Bokovoy [00:03:24] So key with God. I. Oh, man, it's. I'm an agnostic believer, so.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Agnostic theist.

David Bokovoy [00:03:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] And you can. People don't understand. I know that there's a difference between agnosticism or whatever the opposite is, and atheism versus theism. They're on different spectrums. Explain that.

David Bokovoy [00:03:44] So, in other words, I. I don't claim to know or that there is a God, of course, but I. But I choose to believe because I like the idea. Notion of it, and it works for me. It makes sense to me. But I. At the same time, I'm like the idea of an interventionist God who's intervening in daily affairs. That's something I have a really hard time having a belief in, like a

John Dehlin [00:04:15] personal anthropomorphic God that's.

David Bokovoy [00:04:19] I have a really hard time helping

John Dehlin [00:04:21] you find your keys, curing you of cancer.

David Bokovoy [00:04:24] Yeah. I have a very hard time believing that that is. Why a reality.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] Just the suffering. All the suffering in the world.

David Bokovoy [00:04:31] Sure. That's a big part of it. That's a big part of it. And not to mention, it even started when I was a lot more, I guess, traditionally minded in my beliefs, and that is that I kind of felt like the thing that made sense to me is agency. And if we're going to hear and grow and develop, that God would have to step back and allow us to kind of go through that. So even in my much more traditional beliefs, I, I still. The idea of an intervention as God didn't make a whole lot of sense to me theologically, even then. So I guess. I guess that's where I am with God.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] But you don't know, but you still choose to believe.

David Bokovoy [00:05:06] Yeah, but it's not a. But it's not a big driver either for me, theologically and religiously, as strange as that may sound. But the reason for that is that I believe that human beings, we should strive to eradicate poverty, that we should strive to eradicate war, that we should create heaven on earth, which is what Jesus was about. And to me, that's the focus. That's what it should be for us to receive true enlightenment rather than worrying about, is there a God who's going to intervene or am I going to go to heaven or something like that? Because the truth is, and I've always said it this way is if that's your focus, then you're okay either way, Right? If death is the end, then it doesn't matter. You've taken full advantage of this incredible gift of life to make the world a better place and to live a wonderful, happy, productive life. And if there's not, and if there is a God, I fully believe that that individual would be capable of so much love and justice and compassion that if that's what you focused on, you're going to be fine. So it really doesn't matter to me in a sense.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] So what is God to you?

David Bokovoy [00:06:16] God is love. I know.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Is it an energy? Is it science? Is it a force?

David Bokovoy [00:06:23] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Okay, so. And that's okay?

David Bokovoy [00:06:25] Yeah, I really don't know.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] I'm not. That actually can be strong and beautiful and powerful.

David Bokovoy [00:06:30] Yeah. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] So for you, God has, you don't have any form to God?

David Bokovoy [00:06:33] Yeah, I mean, of course I've raised LDs, so in the back of my mind, God is anthropomorphic and human. And I, I, you know, I, I, but I just don't, I don't focus a lot on that anymore.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] It's just not, but you say you're a believer.

David Bokovoy [00:06:49] I guess that's fine.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] Okay. But it's just very loose.

David Bokovoy [00:06:53] It's very, it's very, it's very loose and non descript. It's very loose.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] It's just a feeling.

David Bokovoy [00:06:57] Is it Feeling? Sure.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:07:00] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] Sounds like you haven't put a lot of intellectual form to your sense of God.

David Bokovoy [00:07:04] You know, I haven't. I, it's because that's not, it's not any longer the, the primary driver in my religion.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] Got it. Okay. And then so the historical Jesus and the resurrected Jesus and the atonement, what is that? What role?

David Bokovoy [00:07:19] Okay. I love Jesus, absolutely love Jesus. I love teaching his. I taught historical Jesus courses at Utah State University. I certainly consider myself a Christian. To what ext. It becomes so nuanced. It's hard to talk about in, in just, in an interview such as this. I'm not trying evasive, but it just really is. For example, is Jesus the Son of God? Well, what does that mean, to be the Son of God? It depends upon which New Testament source you're talking about. Early Christians believed that Jesus was the Son of God. And we can see this because of the epistles that predate the gospel sources. And there are, there are Portions. There are poetic phrases in there that clearly stem from hymns and rituals that early Christians participated in prior to even the creation of the epistles. Does that make sense? And if you look at those carefully, you can see the earliest Christology that early disciples of Jesus embraced, that early Christology was that Jesus became the Son of God when he was resurrected. That's when he became the Son of God. Then if we take that view, which is the earliest one we can document historically, compare that with what we see in Mark, which is the earliest New Testament Gospel. Mark was written about 68 CE or so. And in Mark, when is he identified as the Son of God at the baptism? Note that she. That Mark doesn't preserve anything about Mary and virgin birth or anything like that. And if Mark had been familiar with those traditions, we'd have to assume that he would have included them. Right? I mean, he wouldn't leave that out. It's kind of a big deal. Jesus born of a virgin. But no. Mark puts Jesus's Son of Godship at the baptism, the start of his ministry. God speaks from heaven, this is my beloved Son, this day I have begotten you. So you have a movement of Jesus's divine sonship to the start of his ministry. Then you get to the next gospels that are written historically. You get to Matthew and Luke and they are the ones that say, no, no, no, Jesus was born to a virgin as the Son of God. So Jesus's divine sonship actually goes back to his birth. You can see the way this is evolving. And then the last New Testament gospel to be written is John before the world was.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] You got it in the beginning.

David Bokovoy [00:09:41] You got it.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] That's exactly as the tails get, the fish gets bigger.

David Bokovoy [00:09:44] Exactly. So you see these things evolve over time, and they're just clearly there. We can't deny them. It's just a reality of how Christology developed. And, and you can make sense of it as a traditional believer. Sure, you have to shift some paradigms, but you can make sense of it. But that's what I say, like when you ask me is like Jesus the Son of God? I, the scholar comes out to me and says, in what sense? Right. You know, I. And, and, and what does that mean to be the Son of God? You know, in early Judaism at the time period, we can see that what that meant to them is not what it means to us today. You see that, for example, with Psalm 2, where God speaks to the Israelite king and says, today you are my son, you have begotten you. So to Be the Son of God meant to be a king, a king over Israel. And that seems to be the way that early Christians interpreted that definition. And so is Jesus the Son of God? Yeah, absolutely. But you know, in what sense? I mean, and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] So how important is a physical resurrection and him atoning for your sins so that you can be washed clean to return to God? How important is all that?

David Bokovoy [00:10:49] I love it. It's a beautiful theological construct. Absolutely, absolutely. But to what extent does that reflect literal reality? Yeah, that's not a big driver for me anymore.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] Okay, what about. So being a Christian is more about following his teachings of love and service and that sort of thing. Sure.

David Bokovoy [00:11:12] And a choice of belief that he. And I mean, I still self identify as Mormon too. I will always be Mormon, but I

John Dehlin [00:11:23] have a harder time, I have an easier time identifying as a Mormon than I do a Christian. Interesting, because for some reason I'm a cultural Mormon. What else am I? Right. But Christianity for me denotes an exclusive truth claim, a path. And I guess Mormonism does too. But for some reason I have a harder time identifying as a Christian now than I do a Mormon, just because I don't want to offend Buddhists or Muslims or Jews, you know, how have you gotten over that?

David Bokovoy [00:11:50] No, I mean, I teach world religion and I teach. I taught semesters of Introduction to Judaism at Utah State. The truth is I have a deep love and reverence for all world traditions, including secular humanism. You mentioned Greg Epstein. Good. Without God, I believe we can't escape religion is the reality of it. We just can't. It's hardwired into our DNA as human beings. The cognitive revolution created not only a brain that could think and reason and speak, but an ability to create social constructs, fictions even, and those allowed Homo sapiens to work together and to create civilization, to create communities and based upon common beliefs in things that are not attested in the biological reality world that we experience. The US Constitution is certainly that way. I mean, the idea that all men are created equal, well, if you're just talking biology, that's not true. That's a fiction. It's a myth. But it's a beautiful myth that ties people together. And when we start to believe in it, we're able to accomplish extraordinary things as a species. And I see religion that way, I see Mormonism that way. It's why I still love the church, notwithstanding my issues. It's why I self identify as Mormon. It's why I love Buddhism, I love Hinduism, I love Islam, and I love Teaching students about these different faith traditions that people have used to construct their lives and their society that are an integral part of the human experience.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] So you can call yourself a Christian just because religion's inescapable and that's kind of what you are.

David Bokovoy [00:13:29] Yeah. You know, it's funny, you don't mean

John Dehlin [00:13:30] it in the Christianity one true path sense.

David Bokovoy [00:13:33] Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I would never. I don't believe in one true path. I haven't believed in that for a long time. But I actually was sitting. I was talking to my wife. I was like, you know, I wonder if I should convert to Judaism, you know, just because, I mean, I just have. I have this background and I just love Judaism. So passionate about it. And then I thought, yeah, but then I'd have to give up barbecue. And I don't know that I can give up barbecue and pork. And, you know, I was like, yeah, it's just. I'm just going to be an outside admirer of all these things.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] Okay, when you. We're going to talk about. In the. In the next segment, we're going to talk about this book, authoring the Old Testament. And this was published just three years ago. Right. In this book, you are really working hard to help readers know that they can understand all these principles of higher criticism and the document hypothesis and all that and maintain their faith. So you come across in this book very much as still a literal believer in the Restoration and in Mormonism and in Mormon scripture. Did that change at some point between writing the book and now?

David Bokovoy [00:14:54] I still believe everything that's in the book in the sense that I think it's a wonderful way of.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] Okay, well, listen, tell me about the Restoration. What are your thoughts on the Restoration? Start with Joseph Smith.

David Bokovoy [00:15:08] I love Joseph Smith. I consider him a prophet in the

John Dehlin [00:15:11] sense of what we're See, but that's.

David Bokovoy [00:15:13] We have to talk about. I know, you're just a quick version.

John Dehlin [00:15:17] Prophet means what?

David Bokovoy [00:15:20] Someone who leads out and bucks up against society and helps people to create a spiritual community.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] That's great.

David Bokovoy [00:15:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] So not God's official mouthpiece on the earth exclusively.

David Bokovoy [00:15:37] We. It's so interesting. I mean, to me, if we really even look at some of these scriptural texts like that he produces, like Doctrine and Covenants, Section one. Right. That very famous section where, you know, here's this passage that I think we. We take phrases out of context so frequently because you have a passage in DNC for one that is so famous, where by my own mouth or by the mouth of my servants, it is the same. We say, therefore when the prophet speaks, it's the same thing as when God speaks. But we don't read the rest of it. That's around there. And. And it's. Then the Lord says, I, Lord, have spoken these things. All my word will be fulfilled. Whether it is spoken by my own voice or by the mouth of my servants, my word will all be fulfilled. But we take that excerpt to bulk up prophetic authority in our church and take it out of context for what it means. Yeah, the idea of prophetic infallibility, or, you know, someone who can absolutely directly speak for God as a mouthpiece in every sense of the word. I mean, that's just not consistent with church history either.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] So the idea that God has one prophet who has all the keys and authority to lead mankind in righteousness, that's what we think of Russell Nelson, Thomas S. Monson, Gordon B. Hinckley as Jeff Benson, all the way back to Joseph Smith. That idea of God's one prophet on the earth. You're saying what I'm saying?

David Bokovoy [00:17:09] I don't know what I'm saying. I'm saying I. And I'm not trying to be evasive. I'm trying to. I'm. I'm trying to say that I don't believe that there is one way for humans to build heaven on earth and to please divinity, whatever that might be, or however it formed, which I don't understand. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] And so other examples of prophets would be who for you? Oh, a more flexible version of prophet would include who. Who are your favorite prophets by the Bob Dylan. Okay. Really?

David Bokovoy [00:17:50] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] You're not joking?

David Bokovoy [00:17:52] No.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] Why?

David Bokovoy [00:17:54] Because here's a man who raises great social criticism and who uses poetry, which we often see happening in the Hebrew Bible, who is able to elevate humans to a higher spiritual plane. That's a prophet in a sense.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Who else?

David Bokovoy [00:18:14] I see, I see, you know, prophets as critics who. See in the Old Testament at least, prophets aren't what they are in our Latter Day Saint tradition, where you have central authority who is overruns the cult. And I use that not in a pejorative sense, but you know, the religion, religious organization or entity, you don't see that. And instead these are outsiders.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Isaiah. Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:18:37] Who come in and criticize, who offer social, political criticism, who criticize the religious leaders and what they're doing. And that's what prophets are doing. Anciently, prophets were. I mean that today it was a paid profession as well. And today those roles are being fulfilled in our society by journalists, by Songwriters by poets, the traditional role of a prophet. So, yeah, I am deadly serious. That those traditional roles that we see in the Hebrew Bible of prophets are being fulfilled in our society by those sorts of individuals. Now, I'm not saying that President Nelson isn't a prophet. I believe he's a prophet for the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] Right, right, right. Okay. So what do you. So Joseph Smith qualifies as a prophet? Sure. What do you do with the Mormon canon? Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham. Yeah, Doctrine.

David Bokovoy [00:19:36] So I, I think the Book of Mormon is one of the most inspired books ever written. I think it has a inspired apocalyptic message that is essential for Americans specifically to embrace. And that is when the Book of Mormon is read critically and carefully and against the grain, some really important themes start to emerge. We start to realize that it. We have racist views in the Book of Mormon by its authors who view themselves as superior to the Lamanites in every sense of the term. And yet that racism causes division and strife and problems and ultimately leads to the demise of the entire civilization. There's a message for Americans, especially was it in the 19th century, of, you know, it's very important, but that's today

John Dehlin [00:20:24] and trumps America, not pro racism. It's. You're saying you can view the Book of Mormon as an example of racism that we need to avoid, Is that what you're saying?

David Bokovoy [00:20:35] Yes, to avoid the type of racism that plagued the Nephite authors. And it. Absolutely. And then ultimately this idea of creating a society like Jesus helps to create, where we have Eliminate isms and, and people start to work together and to eradicate poverty and create heaven on earth. I mean, literally, that's what the Nephite civilization does. So it's a blueprint in many ways to accomplish those things. Yeah, I know. I, I love the Book of Mormon. There's a deep power in that text that.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] Do you still read it?

David Bokovoy [00:21:11] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] For personal spiritual growth.

David Bokovoy [00:21:14] Yeah, once in a while. I, I'm pretty busy these days with my, with, with other things, but I, No, I just. Yeah, no, I, I love it deeply.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] Natalie writes. Wow. I had never thought of the Book of Mormon like that. That is beautiful. So you want at least one convert in Natalie?

David Bokovoy [00:21:32] I, I, it was funny I said with John's audience, you know, I'm gonna piss everybody off.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] No, no, no. That's all I'm getting because I. We have a good group. We have a good group who are still hanging on. Trent writes. What about the racist God marking and separating people? So he's basically saying the God of the Book of Mormon is racist.

David Bokovoy [00:21:52] Yeah. So here's the thing, is that I don't see scripture that way because of my scripture.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:21:58] So, for example, the Old Testament, rather than a manual like, you know, that would help somebody set up a stereo system or something like that, a manual that defines who God is. The Old Testament is. Should be a springboard for people to receive their own enlightenment. It's reality, a depiction of how those ancient people saw God in light of their culture, their environment that they lived in, and that we can then use that to kind of say, oh, well, you know, they depict God this way. I don't agree with that. But even a negative portrayal in that sense helps you point you towards what your own convictions are. So it's a springboard. And I see the Book of Mormon as that. Just because they. Yeah. Because some Nephite voices present God as racist doesn't mean I think they're right. I know they're wrong, but I learned from them. And what did that view of God do to them and their society? It's. It's a profound message.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] So if you were to summarize what scripture is to you.

David Bokovoy [00:22:56] Scripture is springboard for enlightenment.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] For enlightenment?

David Bokovoy [00:23:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Of what?

David Bokovoy [00:23:03] Towards how to live a happy, productive, spiritual existence,

John Dehlin [00:23:09] not God's commandments to us. I mean, the scriptures, doctrine, covenant is full of commandments. Don't drink this, drink that, don't eat this, eat that.

David Bokovoy [00:23:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] You know.

David Bokovoy [00:23:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:21] And it's also doctrine. It's like, this is what happens.

David Bokovoy [00:23:25] Okay. So, yeah. And then you just, you look at that and say, where's the cultural, you know, drive that caused these people to feel that this was a command from God? To what extent does it reflect my experience with divinity, my experience with spiritual? And therefore, I'll apply it and. And use it or reject it, as the case might be. To me, that's how everything should be used, including Joseph Smith. I mean, the mere. I don't think, for example, his problems with polygamy should be swept under, apologetically, under the proverbial rug. I think we should, as a community, identify those, embrace those things and say, look, there's an abuse of power, of ecclesiastical power here. We need to protect ourselves, our young people, from this. And it can happen to anybody. Happened to Joseph Smith. I would. That's how I use this material. And when I talk about it as being inspired, it's from that sense.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] So what do you say about the approach that says, okay, what does DNC76 say about the three degrees of glory that's what heaven's like. Okay. What does it say about women in the church? Oh, that's what the Bible says. What does it say about authority and deacons and whatever people are looking to it for and commandments. Right. Don't have premarital sex or sex is next to murder or whatever it is. Right. Premarital sex. People are looking to it for how God wants them to live, what the church should be set up to do, and kind of what. What is the reality of the universe in our existence, meaning an afterlife and an atonement and a resurrection. Most Mormons and probably most orthodox religious people are using it in those senses.

David Bokovoy [00:25:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Do you think that they're being misled? Are they being fooled? Are they misguided?

David Bokovoy [00:25:12] Is that unfortunately everybody has their own path. Right. And I, you know, I would not say that they're misguided or misled. And if it is helping them to live happy moral lives, then it, then I fully support that. So, no, not misled or misguided, but I would say that for me that doesn't work and is problematic because if we just stick to the Bible, for example, there is not a consistent portrayal on any point of significance found in the Hebrew Bible. It is not a book. The Hebrew Bible is a library from ancient Israel. And there are contradictions that are intentional. I like to point students, for example, you know, the horrific ban that God orders in Joshua and several other places in the Hebrew Bible commands the Israelites to eradicate every man, woman and child and kill the beast of the community as well, slaughter everything. It's horrific, it's terrible. And certainly not my view of, you know, of what would be inspired. But then there's the Book of Jonah. The Book of Jonah in many ways reacts to that view and says, no, no, no, no, God isn't that way. God is gracious, he is loving, even to Israel's enemies, even to the sparing of the cattle of the city. And that's what happens then in the Book of Jonah. So you have a totally different view of God. So if you're going to take, from my perspective, a manual approach to the Bible and say, okay, the Bible says this about God, therefore that is true, or the Bible says we should do this, therefore that is true, and you're going to run into problems because the Bible doesn't. Is a library of material written at least the Hebrew Bible written over a thousand year time period with very different theological views. Even God is not portrayed the same way, anthropomorphically or whatever. So to Use it that way runs a person will quickly run into problems. And so it wouldn't. That would never work for me. But if it does for others and helps them, I, I'm not going to critique that.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Okay. What do you do with. So the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham? There's a couple things progressive and post Mormons do. They're like, oh my gosh, Joseph Smith was sleeping with other men's wives with young teenage girls. Like, he's a fraud. Therefore, throw out the Book of Mormon, throw out the Book of Abraham, throw out the dnc. It's all garbage because it was built by a man that was a fraud in charlatan. How do you. What do you say about someone having that approach, about someone having that reaction?

David Bokovoy [00:28:00] I say if, if then those beliefs and are causing pain, are causing frustration and turmoil, they should be jettisoned. Absolutely. And then the person should try to seek other forms of enlightenment and joy and what will bring, you know, happiness to them. I have no, I have no problem with people jettison that. I. The reality is, the fact of the matter is that the church doesn't work for everyone. It just doesn't. I mean, you have to fit it. It does really well if you fit a specific mold. But if you are a single man, if you're a divorced woman, if you are, you know, an LGBT person or family, or if you even just kind of think out of the box a little socially or politically, the church can be a very painful institution to be a part of. And therefore, you know, people, I think, believing, committed Latter Day Saints need to recognize that so that they can minister and help people more effectively. So I have no issue with people doing that as long as they are able then to replace that with something that's going to provide them with peace and joy and comfort. I have no issue with that. But I.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] But sounds like you haven't thrown those scriptures totally out.

David Bokovoy [00:29:21] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] What's allowed you to keep them? Even though I'm guessing you don't believe Joseph Smith was God's one true prophet with authority on the earth now.

David Bokovoy [00:29:31] So I guess part of it is just admittedly it's just the way I was raised. I mean, I cannot. Mormonism frames the way I see God. We talked about that a minute ago. Even though I'm somewhat agnostic on details, it's framed the way I see. I just, you know, I drove by the other day and I saw a group of young men and young women from a local LDS ward out taking care of an elderly couple's yard, all as a huge service project. And I was filled with so much joy and happiness, happiness and gratitude for the church and what it does and how it helps people. I, yeah, so what it comes down to is, no, I'm not willing to throw it out because I love the church. I love my community. These are my people. I want to do everything I can to help them. I, I'm not, I, I, my help was from 18 years, was with the INS it was Aphrodite institution. I can no longer do that, not in good conscience, but I still very much want to be a part of the community and help individuals to the extent that I can.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] And that keeps you from throwing out the scripture for you?

David Bokovoy [00:30:48] That's part of it, but it also is just a sheer love of it. I mean, I love the Book of Mormon. I love it. I think it's a beautiful text. I mean, even like when I taught it as literature up at the University of Utah, it's an extraordinary document that draws upon ancient themes and motifs and puts that into a context of 19th century American Christianity and presents a message that I think is very important, especially for America today. I mean, reality, to me, the Book of Mormon, if we read it correctly, is a rejection of Trump's America. I really do.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] That'll make some of my listeners angry. That's okay. Some don't like Trump. Some do.

David Bokovoy [00:31:29] That's okay.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] How do you view the Book of Mormon as coming to be? Do you have a brief kind of, you've understood the creation of documents, of texts. Was it delivered by an angel with golden plates and Joseph translated? If not, there are all these arguments by general authorities that a local farm boy, uneducated, could never have created that book in 12 days or whatever they claim. Have you tried to put together your theory for how the book came to be? Oh, sure.

David Bokovoy [00:32:00] I mean, as a historian, the thing to recognize is historians cannot rely upon miracles to define events from the past. And the reason we cannot do that is because, by definition, a miracle is the least likely thing to have occurred. That's why we call it a miracle. Historians have to rely upon evidence. And what we're trying to do is to recreate what is the most likely thing based upon the evidence that transpired in the past past. And you can't use miracles. If Joseph Smith had. If an angel came to Joseph Smith and delivered golden plates and he translated those by the power of God, that's a miracle. I'm not saying that didn't happen, but I am saying that if it did that's not something historian can, can address. We don't have the tools to do so. So as a historian, it's very easy for me to, to use the historical evidence and to see Joseph Smith as the creator of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] How do you do it in 80 days or whatever they claim?

David Bokovoy [00:32:59] Well, the first thing is, is that Joseph Smith, of course, had a very active imagination. I mean, we know that from his mother and others. He was great at telling stories. He would sit around the fireplace and tell his family stories about the indigenous people, what they would wear, the types of things they would drive carts in and they would sit around, entertain for hours. Besides that, Joseph Smith is from the early 1820s. Exactly. Besides that. Joseph Smith is a brilliant man and he's very well read in the Bible. This is a time when in American history where he didn't have movies, he didn't have, you know, Internet, obviously Netflix binging. No, he's not going to do that. So what is he doing for entertainment? He's reading the Bible. This man knew the Bible backwards and forward. And you see that come through in the Book of Mormon, not only in the type scenes and the, the poetry that appears, but in the very words and phrases that are adopted and taken right out of that. And then, and then it's easy of course, to explain from a historical perspective that, you know, there are Indian origin myths that are going along that connect them with Israelite origins and you start to put the pieces together. As a historian, it's very easy to explain as a natural phenomenon, the Book of Mormon without any divine inter interference.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Everybody wants to say it's such a miraculous book. No, Joseph Smith could have never created it.

David Bokovoy [00:34:14] Okay, that's just not true from historical perspective.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] So how, so, so how could it have happened?

David Bokovoy [00:34:22] Just the way I explained. I mean, he just the first of all the origin stories of the myths of Indians and native people connected with Israelites. You have like the, you know, treasure seeking activities that he's involved with, with guardian spirits and angels, which helped could formulate the origin of how he obtains the plates. Everything there fits so perfectly into historical context. Now let me be clear. I am not saying that that is truth, that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God and that angels did not appear. I'm saying that as a historian, that's the only way we can explain it, by using the tools of scholarship. And we can easily do that if a person chooses to believe in the Book of Mormon. And that's one of my Other issues, John, with apologetics, is that we're using the wrong tools to assess these things. If, if a person. The scholarship leads us to put the Book of Mormon clearly in the 19th century, but if a person chooses to believe in it and the story and the narratives around it, that's a step of faith, that's a leap of faith, and I'm fine with that. I think humans need to take that for that and in other scriptures, and I'm cool with that. But. So I'm not saying the Book of Mormon is not an ancient text. I'm saying, as a historian, it's easy to explain its origins in the way that I pint it out right now.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] What about all this about. He didn't, you know, he was transcribing it, and he couldn't have transcribed it in the, in the days or weeks or months that, the time frame that they've said that there's no way he could have produced it in that short time.

David Bokovoy [00:35:56] People do extraordinary things all the time. And there's. There's no. I mean, it's just things that are unique. And I think the argument that, like, this has never ever happened before, so therefore it's divine, is. Is absurd. I don't understand that because it, you know, things that never happened before transpire all the time. I mean. Yeah, there's never been anything like the Book of Mormon, and it's one of the reasons why I think it's an inspired, wonderful text, but that does not equate to ancient translation.

John Dehlin [00:36:29] Okay, so. But you still find. You still find value in it?

David Bokovoy [00:36:38] Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [00:36:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] What about Book of Abraham? Okay. And what do you think of the Catalyst theory? So explain what that is and then

David Bokovoy [00:36:54] explain what you think about it. And I delve into that in the book.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] We'll talk about that next section.

David Bokovoy [00:36:57] You know, it. It's just the idea that rather than producing a literal scriptural text that Abraham once wrote down on papyri, that it's a. That Joseph Smith tried to interpret that material, and it proved in his efforts of interpreting it was a catalyst then to receive an inspired scriptural text. Yeah, that's. That's very much the way I see it.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] You see it that way?

David Bokovoy [00:37:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] Okay. So with that and with the church's move to. Recently, we heard this first from Spencer Fluman in a. I read it in your book, by the way, this idea that the Book of Mormon isn't a translation. The Book of Mormon is, in Spencer Fluman's words, Joseph's greatest revelation. Right. In other words, it's not what we thought it was. Translating golden plates into English from reformed Egyptian. It's basically just Joseph channeling his sense of the divine. Is that a bait and switch? Is that gaslighting? Like we all prophets for over 150 years led us down this path of Joseph's a translator. He used the Urim and Thummim to translate golden plates from Egyptian to English. And now all of a sudden it's like, oh yeah, he didn't use the plates. He had a peep stone. And it really wasn't a translation, it was just something he channeled. Is that a. Some people say that something unethical happened there, some sort of bait and switch. Can you see that?

David Bokovoy [00:38:25] Oh, sure, I can. I can see that. Of course, I just had never interpreted it that way. I've seen the work, whether you're talking Spencer or the Gibbons or, you know, other people that I respect and admire, I've seen it as the same thing that I was doing and did throughout my life, and that is trying to make sense of critical scholarship in light of their spiritual convictions. So.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] But there's the accountability of what we were taught by church leaders and by prophets.

David Bokovoy [00:38:54] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:38:55] What do you do with that accountability piece? And by the way, by seminary teachers. Sure. Who taught us that translation stuff?

David Bokovoy [00:39:04] I've never had any resentment towards church leaders or people that have taught things that I've later learned to be incorrect. I have always felt like these are good men and women who have wanted to do what is right to the best of their limited abilities. And I still even see that with the policy. And that's one of the reasons I was able to keep my job for a while as a religious educator, because I was able to say, I said, you know what? I know these aren't bad men that are just trying to hurt people. They're facing a very difficult situation with a changing world that is changing socially and scientifically. And they're trying to make sense of those changes in light of their strong doctrinal convictions and beliefs and to do so with the best of their ability. And I, so I've never felt any resentment towards that or felt that that was nefarious or problematic myself. But I can see why others would think, think that way. And I, I, for me, I would just, you know, put my arm around him, brother and sister, and say, let's help you find something else that's going to bring satisfaction and direction to your life.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] But what about. And I'm not trying to force you or corner you. I'm just.

David Bokovoy [00:40:29] No, yeah, I told you, you can ask me.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] So like Joseph Fielding Smith ripping out an account of the first vision out of a Joseph Smith's journal so that we won't discover a different version than what we're comfortable with, or, you know, Michael Quinn being excommunicated for teaching stuff that now, or Fawn Brody being excommunicated for things that now we acknowledge is totally true and sell it does our book. There's the COVID up. There's the, you know, people say there's a cover up. We were misled. We were, you know, people who tried to speak openly about truth were punished, shamed. Lives were wrecked. Where's the accountability for those sorts of behaviors? And the fact that we know that from the 60s onward with Leonard Arrington, that the brethren, the quorum of the 15, quorum of the 12, first presidency, they've known about all these historical problems that we're now just learning about in the past 10 years, and they literally just shelved it and mothballed it, fired people, excommunicated people, closed it down and taught this faithful history for decades to prolong, you know, our consciousness as a society about these problems. Some would say that's a cover up. That's abuse. That's horrible stuff to do, especially when people build their lives around these truth claims. To know that leaders acted in that way, leading people to spend money and time and lives in ways that they wouldn't have if they had all the information. Some would say that's egregious, abusive, terrible.

David Bokovoy [00:42:04] Yeah, I, I don't see it that way.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Yeah. How do you see it?

David Bokovoy [00:42:09] I see it as well. First of all, I, I totally am with you. A cover up. I mean, that's just documented, right? I mean, it's left to do is just read the, you know, when it, you know, read the sources and there's clearly an issue to cover up, information that was deemed would be harmful to people. That's without question that took place. And part of that with excommunications, which I have always opposed, at least for, you know, scholarship or, you know, activism and things like that. I always been adamantly opposed to excommunication in any form. So do I believe that abuses have taken place? Absolutely. They clearly have emotional. I feel I went through quite a bit of emotional abuse in my experiences, this, trying to help people. So I, I'm not saying that that is incorrect in what you're saying. I agree with you, but I just don't believe that it was ever done with an intent to seriously harm, that it was done. And that doesn't justify everything. But I believe that it, it was always done with, out of their desire to help people experience happiness and joy. And I'm not saying that justifies it. Please don't misstatement. But I am saying that that does. I strongly believe that about these people from our community. And so, but it doesn't justify it, and it is wrong when that has taken place. And I am pleased to see the church evolve and, and do better, and I hope that it will continue to do so. I just can't, I just won't be there to help it with that process any longer, because I can't do that.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] So somehow you've escaped being angry at church leaders, at Bruce Alberconki, at Joseph Fielding Smith, at Boyd K. Packer, at Bednar, at, you know, whoever nowadays is at Oaks and Nelson. You found a way to not be angry at them.

David Bokovoy [00:44:16] Doesn't mean that I haven't gotten angry. I mean, at things that they've said or done. That doesn't mean that's not the same thing. You know, I just, you know, Elder Oaks most recent conference talk is angry because I know what that will do to lgbtq, especially youth in the church. To hear that, that, of course I'm angry, that makes me furious. But no, I'm not angry at him. There's a, there's a, there's a difference. I, I believe he's trying to do what is right, and I absolutely disagree with him.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] And same with the church. The church is trying to do its

David Bokovoy [00:44:57] right, trying to help people. And I think it does. And I know it does. I, I, I know it helps a lot of people that I love live really wonderful lives. My mom, my dad, my oldest daughter. And if you fit that mold, it's a powerful tool that can and does help people. And I appreciate that. I'm very grateful for that. I love to hear my daughter's, oldest daughter's testimony and of how the church has helped her in her life. And I filled with gratitude for what the church has done in that sense. But it comes down to John. I just, and I say this, I don't expect perfection from my friends. I don't expect it from institutions. I don't expect it from anybody. I mean, I just, I, I try to see the good in people and I, I try to help along the way.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] How do you draw the line, like, let's just say eugenics, Somebody who believes in a master race because they want the best for mankind. And so they want to filter out all the, all the inferior races or species in their minds. Sure. So their intention is to do good, but they're committing genocide. Like, how do you sort of know where to draw the line for, like, giving someone the benefit of doubt regarding their intentions but condemning what they're doing?

David Bokovoy [00:46:14] Well, I mean, I'll fend some of your listeners again. I think Donald Trump is just one of the worst human beings that ever walked the face of the planet.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] Oh, my gosh.

David Bokovoy [00:46:26] I really do. But, but I would define him as an American version of Adolf Hitler. And I am, I have no problem saying these things. But that having been said, do I believe that he's intrinsically evil, that he's not trying to do things that are good? No, I hate what he is doing, but I don't hate Donald Trump. There's a difference.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] Do you think he's probably, in his way, trying to do his best?

David Bokovoy [00:46:59] I don't know. I, I don't, I mean, I really don't. I, I think maybe sometimes, but I honestly don't think he believes in a lot himself, I think, other than, than power and authority. But I, I, it comes down to I, I just, I love people. I really love people, and I, I try to see the good and try to see what they're doing. And as you know, from that angle, no matter who they are, even Trump, I, I, that's what I say. I, I just, I would never say I hate him. I don't hate him in any stretch, but I, so it's kind of that way.

John Dehlin [00:47:37] Listeners don't get mad that David criticized Trump. That's just, you don't get mad at Mormon stories. You were once kind of viewed as a champion of a thoughtful faith. I'm sure people thought of you as like the great hope to do what David Wright couldn't do. To do, to sort of bridge and integrate higher criticism and the documentary hypothesis with belief. What's it like to kind of fall from grace in that regard?

David Bokovoy [00:48:12] I don't feel that I was ever. It's clear to me that the church, ces, byu, never wanted me to assume that role. I mean, that's just obvious to me. So I don't know that I ever. There certainly were some perhaps that felt that. And I, I'm still more than happy to help people make sense of their spiritual convictions, whether it's in Mormonism or another faith in light of historical scholarship. I teach academically now at Salt Lake Community College, and even in my world, civil Class. I'll teach things that I know are challenging for people of different faiths. And I always do my best to try and help them and comfort them and say it's okay. Here are ways that you can look at it and still maintain your religious community and your spiritual convictions. So I don't know that I've fallen from grace because I don't think I was ever put in that position or wanted to fulfill that position in any sense. But I'm more than happy. My focus now is really on individuals trying to help there.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] Have you disappointed any mentors that really supported you, that really you looked up to their friendship and relationship with you was connected to your upholding the faith. Faith, and now you're not doing that.

David Bokovoy [00:49:35] I still see me upholding the faith, though. I guess that's what I'm saying. I just. I'm just holding it up according to my convictions.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] But from their point of view, you're not.

David Bokovoy [00:49:42] Yeah, you're.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] You're leaving the church. You're. You're talking openly about his problems.

David Bokovoy [00:49:47] And I don't even see myself as having left the church. I would never describe. It's so negative.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] No, that's good. So how do you see it?

David Bokovoy [00:49:54] I see it as someone who. I mean, because to. The difference between. The opposite of love is not. Is not hatred. The opposite of love is indifference. Right. You're not. If. I mean, I don't really care what I'm. I may care about, you know, Scientologists, but so far as what Scientology is doing, I don't have. I don't really give it two thoughts. I'm kind of indifferent. But I can never be indifferent to Mormonism because I love it and it's. I love my community. So I. So I don't know. I'm sure there are people that are disappointed in me, probably in the way that the life has gone. Probably more family disappointment than anything. But I hope that it's part of the reason why I want to share my story. And I'm grateful that you provided an opportunity to do that. I hope that even if people disagree, they'll at least have a better understanding of what I've gone through, what my family's gone through, and why we are where we are right now? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] Has. Have any of your former mentors reached out to you and said, david, I'm so disappointed in you. You've gone down the wrong path? You're. No. Not one.

David Bokovoy [00:50:59] No. Because most of my. I don't know that I had really had a lot of mentors.

John Dehlin [00:51:03] You said you're friends with Daniel Peterson.

David Bokovoy [00:51:05] That's true, but we don't. We're not really. Don't really converse anymore. We just.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] Or Jack Welch. He wrote the forward to your book.

David Bokovoy [00:51:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] I'm sure he's not loving this man.

David Bokovoy [00:51:16] I.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] But he hasn't reached out to you or.

David Bokovoy [00:51:18] No.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] Tried to keep you in the faith or any of that?

David Bokovoy [00:51:21] No.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] Okay.

David Bokovoy [00:51:23] And I, I think I'm kind of, I don't know, probably viewed as a. As a. As a lost cause in the sense that, you know, written off, you're saying. Yeah. I mean, really, people aren't going to be able to raise arguments historically or about scriptures, things like that, that are maybe. Oh, man. I. Now I should be okay with the fact that the church is harmful to LGBTQ people.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Yeah. Again, as I was reading this book, and we'll talk about it in our next segment, you make such an effort to quote B.H. roberts and all these quotes about faith and knowledge being reconcilable and how you have BH Roberts saying true reverence is not a lack of questioning, but serious study, pondering and inquiry. And, you know, as you're going off to David Wright and study at Brandeis, I'm never going to believe in the documentary hypothesis, you know, but even so, so much of this book, just three years ago, you're basically saying faith and scholarship are reconcilable. They're not irreconcilable, whatever. Not anathema. What's the word? I'm trying to get out there. And yet you're now out. And it took you a long time, but there's this vision of saying, don't fear scholarship, don't fear thinking, don't fear academics, because you can do both. You can be a scholar, academic, and a faithful person. Why isn't your life yet another testament, that actually they're irreconcilable, that they're allergic to each other, that they're oil and water.

David Bokovoy [00:52:56] Because if it had not been for the November 2015 policy, I'd still be reconciling faith and scholarship and teaching in church education.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] So if the church rolled that back next week, you'd be back in?

David Bokovoy [00:53:16] No. No, I couldn't. Because it's not just. That was the catalyst for me to step back and say, okay, what am I doing? Where am I at? So for me, John, I read the CES letter or something like that, and I. And don't, don't get me wrong, I don't like belittle or anyone's faith journey or challenges and stuff like that. But I read that and I think, okay, yeah, yeah, there are other ways of looking at it, but. And you could shift paradigms and things like that. That I did my entire life. I would have no problem doing that until I was the day I died, but going back to what it was. So for me, it wasn't scholarship. Faith and scholarship go hand in hand, and they certainly should within Mormonism. And I stand by everything I said and wrote in the book, every single word. And I offered it as a gift, trying to help people go through that process. For me, it wasn't scholarship. It was. They were social issues. And my commitment to social justice, that's where it was. So it's a little bit different.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] It's kind of like you don't need the church to be true, but you need it to be good. Is that. Have you heard that quote?

David Bokovoy [00:54:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] And it started to fail the good test for you in terms of causing too much harm to certain groups of people.

David Bokovoy [00:54:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] Is that right?

David Bokovoy [00:54:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] Not trying to put words in your mouth.

David Bokovoy [00:54:33] No, I. I mean, that's, That's. That's. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] What do you. What do you think about Neo apologetics, this new movement with Givens and Flumen and Mason and Bushman to sort of try and lead the church in. In this new direction? No more ad hominem, no more quasi pseudo scholarship, no more attacks and gathering evidence to torpedo people, but just reframing everything, recontextualizing everything, and yet still holding to a core literalism. There were golden plates, you know, it was an inspired translation. This is God's one true authority church. And without the authority, you know, we're not going to make it back. There's still that kernel of literalism.

David Bokovoy [00:55:19] Yeah. I love what those individuals are doing. I think it's great because I think what they're. I don't see it in the way that you've expressed it as an idea to cover up or something from their perspective.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] I didn't say that. I didn't say cover up.

David Bokovoy [00:55:35] Sorry. And I didn't mean to put words in your mouth then. Anyway, I don't see it as a negative thing. I mean, I know these people all. They're my friends. And I'm telling you, these are very sincere, committed, wonderful humans who want to address scholarship and try to help themselves and others make sense of their spiritual convictions in light of it. And I think that's a good thing. I would hope more people would do that in all of their faith traditions.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] I think the two challenges some have with neo apologetics is, number one, they're still bolstering the claims of authority, which I think you and I would agree, or you've said you don't believe in that authority. And then there's no. They're sort of allowing people to transition, to maintain loyalties without any accountability for people being misled and for people being hurt. And in a sense, they're keeping people in a church that you yourself have. Have decided is too harmful to too many people. So in some sense, they're enabling the harm and the false beliefs.

David Bokovoy [00:56:47] I guess, in some sense for some individuals, but for many others, it's just simply a way of trying to live a spiritual, harmonious life in light of the best information that they have. Yeah, yeah. So I, I, yeah, I mean, I'm just, I'm not one to, to criticize ex Mormons or, you know, progressive Mormons or orthodox Mormons for wherever they're at. If, if, if something is harming them spiritually, then they need to make changes, but if it's bringing satisfaction and joy, then I completely support that and encourage them in their efforts.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] Well, you, you know, there is this Mormon studies community that a lot of our listeners know about, but it's just the MHA people. It's the people that go to the Bushmen or Givens Institutes at byu, and I don't know how that's described, but there seems to be a real currency and credibility if you maintain the believer status and if you don't speak out against the church publicly. And then if you do, you kind of lose cashier credibility with the Mormon studies crowd. Is that something you've experienced at all? Is that true? Has that been your experience or not?

David Bokovoy [00:57:57] Oh, some individuals, certainly, but as a whole, I, I think the Mormon studies community are very accepting and of people wherever they're at. I mean, we, I mean, you think about. Grant Hardy had recently gave a fair presentation where he, you know, talked about how, you know, it wasn't his belief that the Book of Mormon was inspired fiction, but that that view should not be criticized and that it should be one that should be allowed for in the realm of orthodoxy and acceptance in the church. I mean, you're talking about men and women that are very good, very kind, loving human beings. And I, yeah, I haven't experienced that. I think there's an openness to accept and embrace people wherever they're at.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] How does it. You've already talked about excommunications. Have you heard that? Bill Real is now being summoned to a disciplinary council.

David Bokovoy [00:58:46] I did hear that, yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] What are your thoughts and feelings? I guess you've already said it.

David Bokovoy [00:58:50] Yeah, I, I am absolutely 100 opposed to excommunication for those sorts of issues. To me, it's, it's atrocious.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Are you at all worried that you might be excommunicated by speaking out?

David Bokovoy [00:59:03] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] I know you're not worried. You don't think that'll happen, or.

David Bokovoy [00:59:07] No, I, I don't think it'll, it'll happen. I, I can't imagine that it would. But. But yeah, I don't worry about those things. I just, I worry much more about am I living a life of integrity? Am I speaking out for what I believe to be true? Am I trying to make the world a better place? Am I helping promote social justice? And am I doing that then, you know, do what is right, let the consequences follow. I mean, that's how I live. That's why I'm doing what I'm doing now.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] Couple questions from our listeners and then we'll wrap up. And this is, this is a long one.

David Bokovoy [00:59:43] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] GasLighting is the LDS Church's number one method of dealing with mistakes it makes regarding its own history and teachings of previous prophets. For example, Brigham Young's teaching teachings on the Adam God theory, which has its origins in the Old Testament. The LDS Church has a virtue, a very unhealthy relationship with this theological history because gaslighting is basically denial. We don't apologize because we pretend that mistakes never happened so that we can preserve the narrative that doctrine never changes. What do you think will be the tipping point where members can finally know the problematic church history and hold to their integrity? That's the first part of this question. And then he goes on to say, I ask because part of my journey was a journey of integrity. LDS Church gaslighting and apologetics sacrifices integrity on the altar of, quote, a faith affirming narrative, unquote. As if that is a good excuse. Whatever that tipping point may be, the church will continue to hemorrhage members from my generation until it is achieved. That's a big old. Any response to that?

David Bokovoy [01:00:45] Sure, I. And I, I agree. I certainly have seen that happen in the context of church leadership, in the context of apologetics, and I find it deeply offensive when it transpires. I mean, I've spoken out about it many times publicly and will continue to do so. What will be the tipping point? I don't know, honestly. My sense is, is that. And maybe it's just because it's my experience. But I think social issues are much more serious, contemporary social issues are much more serious for the church and struggling membership and losing people than historical inquiries or, you know, issues with scripture or those things. Especially working with the youth. I mean, it just.

John Dehlin [01:01:44] They don't care about. Bruce Armaconki, White chosen Philly experience.

David Bokovoy [01:01:47] Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's really. I see it. I mean, it's just, it's. It's not just a reflection of my own experience that I see it in others. I think that's. That's really where we stand to create a tipping point where people are going to start to really struggle to maintain membership. And I hope that's not the case. I hope the church can adapt and. And progress and change.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] What is your reaction, Right. What is your reaction to the gospel topic essays that the church came out with? Love them, hate them, like them.

David Bokovoy [01:02:15] Oh, it's with anything mixed. Yeah, with mixed. I think a lot of. They're, it's. They're a wonderful step forward without question. Things that I, you know, have issues with or concerns with that I probably, if I had. Was in a position of authority that I would do it right. Differently. But I. It's definitely a great step forward because I think the more that we can be open and honest with the evidence that it has and then let. And then allow for people to kind of, you know, shift their paradigms and come up with their own way of making sense of it or leaving it behind, if it makes them more happy, the better off that we'll be.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] Who are your heroes in life?

David Bokovoy [01:03:02] Martin luther king, gandhi, Jesus? I mean. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] Any women?

David Bokovoy [01:03:20] Sure. I. Man, I don't know. I don't hate men or women a whole lot.

John Dehlin [01:03:30] You don't like the idea of a hero?

David Bokovoy [01:03:32] I mean, it's just, just. It's that I don't believe anybody's perfect. So I don't want to put anybody up on a pedestal where I expect that type of. Where I idolize or put that sort of thing. I want to appreciate the good that they do and focus on that and try to learn from that, men or women or whatever it might be. So hero is just such a strong term, I guess. My dad, my mom.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] What. What is barbecuing been about?

David Bokovoy [01:04:03] Oh, there we go. We knew this was going to come up, right? So this is so great.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] I.

David Bokovoy [01:04:09] And thanks. Whoever asked that.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] I just thought that was me.

David Bokovoy [01:04:11] Oh, that was you. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] Yeah.

David Bokovoy [01:04:13] So that's just one of my passions.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] Rick also.

David Bokovoy [01:04:16] Oh, did Rick do it. I know exactly which Rick you're talking.

John Dehlin [01:04:18] Yeah. Yeah.

David Bokovoy [01:04:19] Okay. So I, I am really passionate about barbecue. We didn't talk about that. I. When I become passionate about something, it's 110% that I devote. And I, about 20 years ago, became passionate about barbecue and I'd always loved it, but I. Then I just studied it scientifically and artistically and started creating my own rubs and sauces and doing competitions and things like that. I.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] What.

David Bokovoy [01:04:45] The reason why I love it is because it brings community together, it brings family together, brings people together to enjoy a good time and, and to, you know, to, to be one. And that's, that's really what I love about barbecue. And that's. Yeah. Fundamentally it.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] And I think, I think Rick wanted to ask something about.

David Bokovoy [01:05:09] Tell him I don't give any recipes.

John Dehlin [01:05:11] Do you. Do you marinate your pork or just use your rub? What's the secret to your sauce? That's what Rick wants to know. That's great. Yeah.

David Bokovoy [01:05:18] No,

John Dehlin [01:05:20] you don't tell.

David Bokovoy [01:05:22] Well, I mean, I do, I do. But no, I mean, I, I make my own sauce. I use a dry rub. I don't, I don't marinate typically stuff, so I do brine my turkeys, though.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] So.

David Bokovoy [01:05:33] Thanksgiving coming up.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] What's been the role of music in your life?

David Bokovoy [01:05:37] Huge role. I still am a singer, songwriter. I don't pretend to be good at it, but I.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] And we will use your songs for the bumpers.

David Bokovoy [01:05:48] Oh, cool.

John Dehlin [01:05:49] Awesome on these episodes.

David Bokovoy [01:05:50] Yeah, awesome. I. Yeah. So I, I started writing music when I was just a little kid and I've continued to do so. I. It's a way of expressing my emotions and feelings. I think one of the ones you're going to use is a song that I wrote called Wild Heart.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] Tell us about it.

David Bokovoy [01:06:06] And this song, the lyrics are. Don't know why I can't feel the morning don't know why I can't feel the dawn Everything inside of me is lonesome But I don't feel nothing at all so it's this idea of really what I felt like I was going through is that, you know, I, you know, I'm kind of distancing myself now from this church in a sense that has meant everything to me in my life. And I should be so sad and devastated, but I don't feel it. I don't feel that way. I don't feel that distance and that loss. And then another line from it is, I don't know why I can't say I love you don't know why you want me gone. It's kind of in this Johnny Cash sort of sound and feel, which is a genre that I love. And it's, you know, that's it. I just, you know, I, I. It was never a fall from grace going back from that. The reality is I really didn't feel wanted. And I hear, I felt like I really wanted to offer training and skills and stuff to help, but it was something that, that just was rejected, what I wanted to do. And I wish I could say I just completely love you and embrace you, and I do, but it's not with the same type of love that you expect. I've got a wild, wild heart, which is a heart that is trying to express this idea of wildly, no matter what the consequences, to pursue what is true and passionate and right. And that is certainly viewed by my faith community as, as a wild approach, but it's one that defines me. So.

John Dehlin [01:07:42] So you still play guitar?

David Bokovoy [01:07:44] Yeah, yeah. We have a band called Dead Cowboys and we play locally here in Utah, playing in Park City in a couple weeks, and it's, It's a lot of fun. I, It, I, I really enjoy it. I. Right now, my kind of. I tell people my, My goal in life is to become a bar band that, like, gets regular gigs scheduled, and we're almost there. We're on the cusp of a major success from my, My point of view.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Have you seen the Blues Brothers?

David Bokovoy [01:08:10] What is it?

John Dehlin [01:08:11] The Blues Brothers, the movie?

David Bokovoy [01:08:12] Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:13] Where the chicken wire and they're throwing the beer.

David Bokovoy [01:08:16] Yeah. That's your aspiration there? That's it, right? Because no more byu, no more scholarship. I just want that, that right there. We're almost there, and it's a good thing.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] So. All right, so to close, you know, the reason why Mormon stories still exist 13 years after it started, the reason why people still come back listening. We've now got, I don't know, 6 million downloads and views a year. It's crazy how much we've grown. People keep coming back because it's so hard to leave. It's just so hard to leave Mormonism. You think you're crazy. You think you're alone. You think you're broke and you can't. You, you think you can't be happy without it. You think you can't be healthy without it. You think you can't raise healthy, happy kids without it. So everybody's just freaking out, scared, insecure, struggling with just that transition. So you're in the middle of it. If you were to give some parting perspective to people going through it based on what you've experienced, what wisdom would you want to leave people with in terms of how to navigate what they're going through?

David Bokovoy [01:09:20] Yeah, the same advice I gave to my son, and that is to embrace a religion of love, to embrace a religion of service, to embrace a religion of developing the mind, to embrace that process and to find ways to supplement that. I mean, for me, it's been now moving into prison education. For my son, it's been local community service and going off on these humanitarian trips there. We have to. We're spiritual beings. We just are. We have to find ways to supplement that. That loss and to fill it. And I've just been so proud of my children as they've gone through this and what a wonderful job that they've. They've done. I've been impressed with them. My son is the honors National Honor Society president, Boreham High School. He involved with things. My youngest daughter as well, just straight A's and ap and she. And she's just flourishing in this. And that doesn't mean. I'm not trivializing how hard it is. It's. It's a challenge when you go through something like that as an individual, as a family. But embrace love and. And to be. And I would encourage people as well. I would say be forgiving. Be forgiving to realize that, you know. Yeah, there have been church leaders that have done and continue to do some really awful things, but forgiveness is just the only way forward. We have to learn to do that.

John Dehlin [01:11:01] And then do what with your life when you're not going to church every

David Bokovoy [01:11:05] Sunday, when you're not spend time with your family. That's what we've been doing. I've had a lot more Sundays now with Sunday brunch and things like that with my wife that. That we've enjoyed getting together. We go to. We're really into live music, so my wife and I go hear live music every weekend now and enjoy that. The local bands that are playing fill it with rich, wonderful activities such as that. And, you know, and I appreciated watching you provide those sorts of opportunities socially and communal experiences for. For post Mormon groups. And I think that's. I think it's wonderful. John, thank you for doing that.

John Dehlin [01:11:40] Yeah, thank you. So would you say you're happier now

David Bokovoy [01:11:46] than you were before?

John Dehlin [01:11:48] Healthier now, Less healthy, less happy, Somewhere in the middle? Same.

David Bokovoy [01:11:54] I'd say I am happier now certainly, than I was over the past couple years, trying to navigate and figure out what I was going to do. Definitely happier now. I don't know what was the rest of it.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] Healthier.

David Bokovoy [01:12:14] Healthier. Oh, I'm absolutely healthier.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] You're a better dad. Worse dad.

David Bokovoy [01:12:18] Oh, yeah. I was. I was really heavy. I did. I had. I was using barbecue and food as my drug of choice. And with that combined with scholarship, I was up to, like, £250 and with high blood pressure, and I just. It was completely out of control. And now I just. I go to the gym probably five, six days a week, and I. Yeah, so it's finding other things.

John Dehlin [01:12:41] You're physically healthier?

David Bokovoy [01:12:43] Physically healthier, absolutely. And definitely emotionally because. And I am grateful for critical scholarship, which helped me be more open towards social issues that are concerned in my life right now.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] Yeah. So. And your marriage. Better. Worse.

David Bokovoy [01:13:02] Yeah. Really strong. Stronger than it's ever been. I've been very fortunate that way in that we've both grown together and changed together, and that's not always the case, and I recognize that. So my heart goes out to those who are not in that situation. I've been very fortunate, and my wife has been very loving and supportive, and we. Yeah, I mean, in ways, we're closer now than we've ever been. We get to go out and, you know, go hear live music. And, like I said, dude, Sunday brunch. It's wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:13:31] And you feel you're a better dad than you would have been?

David Bokovoy [01:13:33] Absolutely. 100.

John Dehlin [01:13:36] I imagine that's partly because you can let your kids be who they want instead of who you want them to be.

David Bokovoy [01:13:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] Is that it?

David Bokovoy [01:13:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:42] Yeah. All right. Well, one. One listener writes, maybe this is. I don't know if you want to end it this way, but. But Emily writes by, you missed the boat. What they feared from David, ironically, would have given them legitimacy, leverage. She wrote. I think a lot of us feel like b. Well, you missed the boat. Do you wish you were there now?

David Bokovoy [01:14:04] No. No. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] You really don't really. You gave your whole life to that, and now you don't.

David Bokovoy [01:14:09] I know you feel like you dodged a bullet. Oh, I. I mean, going back to that story, John, that I shared with Ron Walker, where he predicted. He said. He said the day will come when you will realize what a good thing that this is and that you will. If you had gone that route, you would not have been able to do the things that you need to do. Scholarly speaking and other venues as well. And he was exactly right. I mean, I. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be in a BYU position right now. And given what I feel about church leadership, given what I feel about the scripture, and particularly given what I feel about the LGBTQ community and the way that we are harming them and the way that that needs to stop, I just. I couldn't. I couldn't survive in that environment any longer. So, yeah, no hard feelings. It's. It was very difficult to go through at the time, but I'm in a good place now.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] All right, we're literally like a few seconds left, so next part, we're going to talk about authoring the Old Testament. We'll come back on live. Please join us for the next part. We're going to take apart all the different Mormon scriptures using higher criticism. David Bachavoy, you're brilliant. We love you. Thank you for the Honor of Mormon Stories podcast coming on. Thanks to all the listeners who joined us. And don't go away. Come right back for the next part after we have lunch or later. Thank you. Thanks, David. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

David Bokovoy [01:16:13] This morning I went to the woods to see what I could learn it told me to listen to the music of our land Singing all about the city going to hell so don't tell me to find myself.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.