Introduction and Purpose of the Call-In Show

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 9th, 2022. I can barely see, but I think that's right, February 9th. And this has been Brad Wilcox Week on Mormon Stories podcast. Or maybe, maybe more accurate to say Brad Wilcox Fireside Week. But really we've tried really hard to make the point that this isn't about Brad Wilcox. We're not roasting Brad Wilcox. We're not shaming Brad Wilcox. We are, we believe that Brad Wilcox gave a speech that represents modern Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And so he is literally just kind of like the messenger, but you don't ever shoot the messenger. And we believe on Mormon Stories podcast that it's systems, not people that you speak about and or criticize. And so me and Gerardo and Kara did a super popular initial kind of breaking the story episode on Monday that has been viewed well over 30,000 times now.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] And it was three and a half hours long and it had like 1400 people on the live stream and it was amazing. And then last night Kara and I did a follow up which also was amazing and has been really well received. What I thought would be really fun, I wanted to experiment with this technology of Streamyard and see if we could try a live call in show. So I grew up listening to radio and one of the things I used to love to do was, was listen to call in shows where the host would invite callers to call in and talk. And you've all probably are familiar with call in shows.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] What we've never tried to do really on Mormon Stories Podcast is a call in show. Now Mormonism Live does this a little bit now and we love Mormonism Live support them Wednesday nights at 6:20 Utah time. Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon do an amazing show. They've started doing call ins. What I don't think we've done or anyone's ever really done is is trying a video call in show. And the purpose of today's video call in show, it's just going to be about an hour, hour and a half at the most. But what we want to try is, is not just having me and Kara and Gerardo give our opinions, but we want to give our, you know, listening and viewing audience a chance to share their opinions.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] And so that's what we're going to try today and we're going to bring on as many of you as we can. I also have several really, really cool comments made that I wanted to share visually. If, if we don't have enough People calling in. But here's how this works, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] We have pasted into the description of this episode both on Facebook and on YouTube a link to Streamyard. And Streamyard is an app that just allows you to join, kind of like zoom, kind of a call. And you have to use Chrome browser. And when you join, you have to enable, you have to give streamyard the ability to access your camera and your mic. And if you do, you, you'll join streamyard and you'll be able to be a part of our show.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] And the only other thing I'll say is what we'll, what we'll do is if you try and join now and Streamyard's full, just wait a little bit and as we cycle through our, our viewers and speakers, then there'll be slots open up. So if you can't join streamyard now, but you want to join it later, then just keep trying as long as the show is live. We want to ask you to keep your mics muted until I call on you. And there's going to be probably some technical difficulties or interruptions. And then the only final thing is if you join streamyard and you can't see that your camera and microphone are enabled or we don't see that your camera and microphone are enabled, we'll probably have to boot you to make room for other people because this is going to be a video and an audio stream.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] So those are just some of the, the guidelines and that's how today's gonna roll. And we're just gonna see how easy or hard it is to do to, to join people into our stream and to have discussions. So, yeah, the topic today is Brad Wilcox's Alpine Youth Rescue Fireside. We are not roasting Brad Wilcox here. We're not trashing Brad Wilcox here. We're not being mean to Brad Wilcox.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] We believe that Brad Wilcox is a reflection of Mormonism. And so we just want to get people's reactions. But we're going to ask you to be kind, be, be thoughtful, let's not be ragey or angry. Keep it pg. PG rated.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Because this is live streamed and we will boot you if you do anything inappropriate and we'll ban you if you, you know, or say or do anything super mean or inappropriate, we're going to ban you. But we just, we want to see what it's like to try and do a live stream. And so what I'll do is I'll just start adding people. And what I want to ask is, anybody who is waiting, please prepare one comment that you want to make about Brad, about Brad's presentation, or about the modern church.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] And, and then what we'll do is we'll have you make your comment and then we'll have you step out and leave room. And for somebody else, and for the very first call in person, we're going to have Mike J.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] Join us. And Mike J. Is super cool, and some of you may not know Mike by his name, but he is the brainchild behind LDS Discussions), which is an amazing website and Facebook page and Instagram page and TikTok page.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] And Mike is a real kind of amateur scholar as it relates to Mormon truth claims. So, Mike J. What a treat to finally get you on Mormon Stories podcast.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:06:33] Yeah, it's nice to talk to you. It's been a while.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Yeah. Well, you do great work. And yeah, we, we should share in the comments section a link to your amazing work. But, Mike, do you want to talk a little bit about LDS discussions and what it is?

Context on the Talk and Community Reactions

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:06:48] Yeah, I mean, it's just, I think in a lot of ways, it's a website that is designed to kind of COVID all of the different topics of Mormonism. It started off with kind of going through the annotated gospel topics essays, which someone who was much smarter than me had kind of let me borrow to start the website with. And then we did a chapter by chapter review of the first Saints book. And then really the thing I worked on the last year or so was doing an overview project where you go through. It's like 39 different topics. And it's kind of like the way I was describing once is like, if the CES letter is like dipping your toes in the water, this is getting a little bit deeper.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:07:27] It's not nearly as deep as some of the real scholars that are doing all the, like, you know, Colby Townsend, for people who haven't read his, he's done some crazy detailed stuff. And David Bachavoy, all those people. But this is more of like, if you want to go a little deeper than the CES letter, it covers 39 topics and could try to do more of a condensed version of it. But as I was told by Jonathan Streeter, it's a little bit wordy, but tried to be, you know, detailed so that you could get both the, the problem, the apologetic response, and then kind of going through how it all pans out in the end.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] Well, what's the URL to get to your stuff?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:08:03] So you just go to ldsdiscussions.com for the main site and then the, the site's not the flashiest site. And then if you want to go into the overview project, that's just LDS discussions.com overview.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:08:15] And like, you know, kind of with the Brad Wilcox thing, you know, you can kind of look at some of the sections and see how they kind of correlate to how, you know, Brad Wilcox talked about how anyone talks about it. Really?

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Yeah.

Guest [00:08:25] All right.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Well, you do great work. Really grateful for it. Okay, so. So, Mike J. What is your. What. What's one reaction you want to share about Brad Wilcox's talk?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:08:38] Well, you know, the thing is, like, on one hand, you know, get frustrated by it because of the fact that Brad has kind of done this tactic with other things. There was the talk, I think it was last fall, where he talked about how look at the people who leave the church and look how their countenance goes away and look at the people who are in it and how they have a better countenance. And I always thought that was a really kind of a harmful way to teach young kids to kind of judge people who leave the church by trying to look at what's bad about them versus what's good about people who stay in.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:09:07] And I also think his apologetics are really tricky. Like, he had done a video where he puts his head in a hat to talk about the translation. So I don't want to bash Brad, but I think his version of Mormonism is very aggressive. It's very, as you can tell from his talk, he uses emotions. He leverages it to kind of create that us versus them narrative, which I really don't like. Just because having family in the church, it's very disruptive when you have. When you know that people in your family are being told that, you know, look at these people who leave, they lose everything and you're, you know, or if they go to another church, that church, they're playing church.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:09:45] And so I just, you know, I think his. He's straddling apologetics and kind of hard line doctrine with the church. And in a lot of ways, he's not wrong. What he's saying is not wrong with what the church teaches. It's just that, you know, you don't want to actually say some of those things out loud. And so that's obviously why he apologized.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] Yeah. Do you think it's. Do you think it's fair to say that he, you know, like, we now know that he has given this talk multiple times before. There's actually YouTube clips of him giving identical talks even in the south, which is kind of even More. More mind blowing.

Guest 2 [00:10:27] But

John Dehlin [00:10:30] it's hard to know what to make of an apology when you know that he's been giving this talk for years, that people have been listening to this talk for years, that he hasn't been called on it before. And at some level, you have to know that the church has. Top church leaders have heard him give this talk before. Know that he's given this talk, like, knowing that he's been giving this talk for years. What does that mean to you regarding the policy or regarding the apology?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:10:56] Well, I think, you know, it's kind of funny. We were talking about this the other day. I was talking with some people, and the whole thing is like, I don't think he realizes that when you do it today, it's going to be on Zoom, and people share those links. And so I think really, church leaders put him out there because they think his style is effective with the youth. And I think to a certain extent, it's going to be effective, at least for a while, because if you really hit kids on, you're going to lose everything. If you leave, it at least gives them a little bit more fear to step out and look at the CES letter, look at what I've done, look at what you're doing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:11:27] And so I do think he's intentionally put on these speaking circuits because they find it effective. But I think his problem is he's giving this talk to these small groups, this very targeted audience, not really thinking in the back of his head that is now accessible by everybody because people are putting it on Zoom and because people record it. And so, you know, it's kind of one of those whole things where it's like, you know, his only real mistake was that he got caught.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:11:49] Obviously over simplistic. It's just to say they put him out there for a reason and he's going to different stakes. So at some point over the last few years, you have to believe that some people listen and said, this is a little bit dicey. Yet he keeps getting put back out there with the same talk. So obviously they approve at least of the tactics and the message. So, you know, at some point it's on them for putting it out there.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Yeah, absolutely. All right, Mike. Well, I. I'll keep you. I'll keep you in the group if you want to kind of maybe join in here there. But I just want to say LDS discussions is amazing. I'm so glad you called in. I would love to find a way to collaborate with you on Mormon stories. We want to do More truth claim stuff. And thank you for what you're doing. And thank you, really. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, yeah, thanks.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:12:37] It was nice to talk to you guys.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] You do super important work, so please stay in touch.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:12:40] Okay, thanks so much. Have a good one, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] All right, Mike, take care. Thanks for joining. All right, next we're going to have Kate Tallman Tate go to unmute yourself, if that's all right. Kate, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories podcast.

Guest 3 [00:12:56] Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] So where are you calling from if you want to share, Kate?

Guest 3 [00:13:00] Yeah, I'm here in Utah.

Guest 4 [00:13:02] I'm in South Jordan.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] All right, all right.

Guest 5 [00:13:05] So.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] So, Kate, what do you think of Brad Wilcox's talk? What do you want to share about it? What's your one thing you want to share?

Guest 6 [00:13:12] Well,

Guest 7 [00:13:14] I have.

Guest 4 [00:13:16] There's a couple of things. One, one of the things that really stood out to me was his word of using the word stupid.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:13:25] It's so degrading. And I my honest opinion in listening to it and watching it and knowing some of the youth today, like my grandkids and my children and others, none of are. Are LDs now, but the youth today are a little more. They have more of a backbone than I think we did. And I think it might actually backfire on them because I think they'll feel defensive in the way he spoke to them. Kids today are very good about expressing their emotions and expressing their dislike about things. And I think that his talk might have worked 20, 30 years ago.

Guest [00:14:17] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:14:17] But I think in today's society, I think it's gonna backfire.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Yeah, I read a com. Somebody made that comment. And Kate, your camera's shaking a little bit. I don't know if you're.

Guest 4 [00:14:26] Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] It's okay. I saw someone make that comment last night that, like, unbelievable that someone so out of touch with the youth is. Is called as one of the three top leaders of youth in the entire Mormon Church. Like, anybody understands teenagers, gen zers, millennials, they would know that that kind of stuff is much more likely to do harm than good.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] You know, racist stuff, sexist stuff, misogynistic stuff, homophobic stuff, manipulation. Like, kids these days are way smarter than me. Like, I'm just thinking about four children. All are smarter than me. All four. You know, I don't think I'm a dummy. Like, but my kids are all smarter than me. They're not gonna accept this garbage. So it's weird. Yeah, I think that's a great point, Kate. It's weird that, that this guy thinks that that's actually going to be effective. And maybe, you know, that's what's hard, Kate, is that it is going to be effective for some of those kids, but it's also going to harm many of those kids or be a turn off and.

Guest 5 [00:15:31] And so correct.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] They need to pick someone that. That is going to do more good and less harm. And just on the spectrum, his rhetoric

Guest 4 [00:15:39] is someone more relatable.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point, Kate.

Guest 4 [00:15:44] Thank you.

Guest 8 [00:15:45] Kate.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] It's so nice to have you on Mormon stories. Thanks for. For calling in. Come back.

Guest 2 [00:15:49] Okay, will do.

Guest 4 [00:15:50] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] All right. Thanks, Kate. Okay. Well, that was fun to have Kate. Join us. Let's have Mike. Mike F. Join us. Hey, Mike, where are you? If you're comfortable sharing. Where are you calling in from? Unmute yourself before you talk.

First Callers Respond: CES Insider Perspective

Guest 9 [00:16:06] Calling in from Idaho. All right, so I can relate to Brad. I was a colleague of his for 20 years with seminaries and institutes and.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're. You're Mike. We've corresponded, right, Mike?

Guest 9 [00:16:20] Yes, we have.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] So Mike, you used to work for

Guest 9 [00:16:22] seminary and institute for exactly 20 years from January. January of 2001 to January of 2021.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:16:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] And we're supposed to have you on Mormon stories, right? Is that my fault or yours that we haven't scheduled it yet?

Guest 9 [00:16:35] I'll take blame next time you have a free Monday.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] Okay, let's schedule that like today. All right. But Mike, are you saying that you. Did you actually know Brad Wilcox while you were a seminary?

Guest 9 [00:16:47] No, but he. I know I could. I know 10. You know, half my colleagues are just like him. I remember being hired. I'm sure he's was in the system a couple decades before me, but that. I know what they were looking for, what they were hiring is that. That. That personality.

Guest 7 [00:17:09] The.

Guest 9 [00:17:09] The word spinkering them was used.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] What does that mean? What's the word again?

Guest 9 [00:17:15] Speaker income in the hiring. Yeah, it means.

Guest 10 [00:17:18] What does that mean?

John Dehlin [00:17:18] What does spinkering mean?

Guest 9 [00:17:21] It was.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] That's what I asked.

Guest 9 [00:17:22] Like it was supposed to. I think someone had. It was supposed to be energetic and have pizzazz and pizzazz and just. It was just. They wanted that type of energy that he exudes.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] But where does spinkering. What is the origin of that word?

Guest 9 [00:17:40] I do not know. I think it. I honestly think it was from the hiring director from Utah, I think used it.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] How do you spell spinkering them?

Guest 9 [00:17:48] Yeah, so it's SP with the K there. It's like it's been put it. It Was the. It was what they were looking for. It was. They.

Guest 8 [00:17:57] They.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] I'm gonna write that. I'm gonna put that in the comments.

Guest 9 [00:18:02] Like I don't know what it means.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] Spinkering. Like there needs to be a website now or like a podcast called Speaker Income. That's great. But it means somebody that's what. Energetic, passionate. But I would also want. Does it mean emotionally manipulative?

Guest 9 [00:18:16] Like, you know, I. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Somebody said the comments. Quinn says sounds like sphincter.

Guest 9 [00:18:22] Yes. I. You know, that's just the word they use. That's what they wanted was personality. They wanted that personality.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] But

Guest 7 [00:18:33] I.

Guest 9 [00:18:34] My.

Guest 11 [00:18:35] I.

Guest 9 [00:18:35] One thing is I can. I. I could relate to the fact that you can't see

Guest 2 [00:18:42] he does.

Guest 9 [00:18:42] The perspective you have when you're paid to do this because he has that joint. He's not. I guess all general authorities are pains, but he's. There was a quote I heard by Upton Sinclair. It says it's difficult to convince a man to understand something when his salary depends upon him not understanding it.

Guest [00:19:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Yep. From the jungle.

Guest 9 [00:19:05] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:19:05] Yeah.

Guest 9 [00:19:05] So there is a lot of. I have a lot of grace for. I do have a lot of grace for him. But I do. I guess I. I want to share that the myth that is he is perpetuating that there is no happiness outside of the. His, you know, G O, S P E L. There's no happiness outside of those. My lived experience is the exact opposite.

Guest 5 [00:19:30] And it doesn't.

Guest 2 [00:19:31] You.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] You taught seminary for how long?

Guest 9 [00:19:34] 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] You were in CES.

Guest 9 [00:19:38] I quit exactly a year ago.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] And you made the courageous decision to really probably sacrifice your career, your pension. I don't know.

Guest 2 [00:19:47] Were you.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] Did you have to sacrifice your pension?

Guest 9 [00:19:50] I was vested in what was already put in.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] Okay, good. So you've got something there. But you. But it's probably not easy to get a job after you leave church education. Right?

Guest 9 [00:20:00] You know, I. I maybe Baptist university might want a Mormon specialist. Yeah. So I'm. I'm. I'm changing gears completely. But it's. Yeah, it was. So I. I just have that grace for him. But my. The last experience that last year. This last year of my life has just been the exact opposite life. Life without manufactured shame is just bliss. That his example of the balloon with the spirit that. You know, I don't know if now I have helium instead of air in my. The balloon, but life. Listening. My wife has. My wife has a phrase and she actually has a podcast that it's like the holy self listening to the holy self without all the shame. I, I carried so much shame, especially because I didn't live up, not just had to live up to the gospel, but also to the, to the, to the profession.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] Yeah.

Guest 9 [00:21:02] So it's.

Guest 7 [00:21:04] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:21:04] Okay.

Guest 9 [00:21:05] My message, my. The main thing I want to say is that I sort of want to say, Brad, how can you claim that there is none, that it's. Life outside of the gospel is so rough unless you've been outside of it?

Guest [00:21:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] Yeah, that's a really good point, Mike.

Guest 9 [00:21:24] I also want to make sure he, he knows that some printers do break.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] Some printers do break. Oh, yeah. For when he was shaming all the, all the Utah kids for, for all the students for their, their printers breaking the night of an assignment being due.

Guest 12 [00:21:42] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:21:43] Yeah.

Guest 9 [00:21:43] And if you, if you've ever, if you ever do start a conversation by save. I don't want, you know, I don't want to be rude, you. That, that means you want. Are going to be rude.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] That's pretty true. Yeah. If you, if you ever say I don't mean to be rude, you could just know if somebody ever says I don't mean to be rude, you can almost guarantee that the next thing that's going to come out of their mouth is something rude.

Guest 2 [00:22:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] So really quick, I, I want to, I really want to just to ask you, like, did, like there's going to be progressive Mormons like Patrick Mason or, you know, or Spencer Fluman or the Givens that are going to say, well, what Brian Wilcox taught, that's not Mormonism. Like those types of things that you heard him speak of during that gospel, you know, Fireside. Is that the Mormonism that you were exposed to as a seminary and institute teacher, or was that just Brad Wilcox, Mormonism? What would you say?

Guest 9 [00:22:40] Yeah, I didn't use the same analogies, but yeah, that's, that's that, you know, this, that with life, with these gospel elements is the only happy life. Yeah, but Mike, So now I, it doesn't make sense to me.

Guest 2 [00:22:56] Yeah.

Guest 9 [00:22:57] Because my, the last year of my life has been the best year.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] Right.

Guest [00:23:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:23:02] But.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] But you, But I'm just saying, like when you heard his talk, you're not like, this isn't Mormonism. You're like, yep, that's. Yeah, but we all teach in, in the. Cesar.

Guest 9 [00:23:10] Yeah, that's. He's teaching Mormonism. The other ones you're, that you're quoting. From what I understand, they have their own version of Mormonism that they are trying to.

Guest 2 [00:23:21] Yeah.

Guest 9 [00:23:21] To find, to grasp onto, but everyone has their own I've. Everyone has their own God, their own Jesus, and their own definition, you know, their own Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] Yeah.

Guest [00:23:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] All right, Mike. Well, so great to have you. Let's have you back to tell your story. Okay, brother.

Guest 9 [00:23:40] All right, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] It's really great to have you on. Good luck building a life after CES and after the church. I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better, that you're happier, and I really respect you for your acts of integrity.

Guest 9 [00:23:52] Mike, thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:23:54] And thanks for teaching us a new word. Thank you.

Guest 2 [00:23:59] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] All right, Mike, take care. All right, the next person that we're going to bring on is Randall. So, Randall, I'll unmute you. Randall, where are you calling from? If you're comfortable sharing?

More Listener Calls on Race and Church Culture

Guest 5 [00:24:13] Sure. I'm calling from Charleston, South Carolina.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] Oh, wow.

Guest 5 [00:24:19] I represent the non Mormon silent minority that listens religiously to your podcasts.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Oh, my goodness, Randall, what a thrill. So were you raised religious or non religious?

Guest 5 [00:24:36] I've done the grand tour. Baptized Methodist, Sunday schooled, Presbyterian, parochial school, Lutheran, had my dalliance with Catholicism, and here I am.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] And why in the heck would you of all people want to tune into this bizarre, kooky, random, Mormon themed podcast and Internet show?

Guest 5 [00:25:01] Well, I've been attracted to LDS apologetics since the mid-90s, which coincides with the Internet. And when things first appeared, I was also fascinated with Scientology's cultism and Jehovah's Witness cultism. But what struck me is most of the apologetics I got in the beginning was. Was coming from BYU professors. And I guess what surprised me, shocked me was how incredulous their apologetics were. They twist themselves in multiple pretzels to make current science ethos. Everything fit a 100 year old story. And I'm struck by the problem that new religions have and I, you know, talking about stuff out of the enlightenment in the mid 19th century have with evidence, because their history is so recent, their claims and their promises are. Are open to historical research.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] Yeah. And scrutiny.

Guest 5 [00:26:26] And that who else besides the LDS have to worry about explaining genetics or even old newspaper articles?

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:26:35] And yeah, maybe I'm just an observer of human nature, but I find the process of holding the apron together while I hold all my chicks as an LDSer to be very human. And I watch how the high mucky mucks and profits deal with too much information out there in the cybersphere. And I think that the only reason why they can do what they do is because they compartmentalize the heck out of Whatever they're doing. And they have selective memories. Mr. Wilcox, for his part, was repeating a well polished series of both of those characteristics. Now, it's easy to dismiss the LDs, particularly on the right coast, as I am and I've lived all my life, except that I have encountered LDS folks in my work in Boy Scouting, in various persuasions and circumstances. And every one of them have been just darn nice people. And the dissonance has been interesting for me to deal with.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Yeah, that makes sense.

Guest 5 [00:28:14] That's really all I have to say.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Well, Randall, I would love to. I would love to have you back on Mormon stories because I really do want to interview never Mormons just to understand better what it is they like about the show. So I'm really grateful you joined. Do you have one quick reaction to Brad Wilcox's talk that you want to share or is that all? Did you already share everything you wanted to share?

Guest 5 [00:28:35] Yeah, and you won't like this, but based upon my knowledge of your talks and apologetics, I thought Brad Wilcox was fairly restrained.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] Yeah. Okay, that's good. I like it. I don't. What do you mean? I wouldn't like that. I'm okay with that.

Guest 8 [00:29:03] Okay.

Guest 5 [00:29:04] You were fair about Mr. Wilcox, I will note that. Very fair.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] Well, Randall, I am just dying to have you back on to hear your commentary because, you know, we tend to be insular, we tend to kind of be self focused, both as Mormons and as ex Mormons. So having like an outsider not just being able to comment on the church relative to other religions, but also on apologetics, that's really powerful. So, Randall, I hope we can find a way to get in touch.

Guest 5 [00:29:35] And John, anything I can do to support you. I just think you're incredible person and incredible counselor and you deserve attention and support. I'll find a way to get my contact information to you.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Thanks, Randall, you're the best. Okay. All right, Randall, let's stay in touch. It's so great to have you on the show. Okay, well that's super fun to have to have Randall join us. Now let's go to Carrie Kerry. Let's unmute you. Carrie, where are you? I'll unmute you, Carrie. Carrie, where are you joining us? Wait a minute, I'll unmute you. Carrie, don't. Don't do anything.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] Okay. All right, Carrie, I'm having a problem unmuting you, so I'm going to bring you back on in just a second, but right now I'm not able to unmute you, so Carrie, we'll bring you back. I'm sorry. Let's go ahead. Let's try. Beck. Beck, I will unmute you.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Turn your phone. If you can turn your phone sideways so that we can see a full shot of you. And again, I'm not able to unmute you. So for some reason. Mike, see if I can unmute anyone. Oh, for some reason, we're having a microphone problem of me being able to.

Guest 13 [00:30:58] Can you hear me now?

Guest 2 [00:30:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] There you go, Beck.

Guest [00:31:00] Yeah.

Guest 13 [00:31:00] Okay. I just did that myself.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] Okay. Beck. Yeah. Where are you calling us from?

Guest 13 [00:31:06] I'm in Salt Lake county on the south part.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] Okay.

Guest 13 [00:31:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] All right, Beck. And thanks for joining us on our first Mormon stories live.

Guest 13 [00:31:17] Yeah, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] So, Beck, what. What did you think? What was the comment you wanted to make about Brad Wilcox's talk?

Guest 13 [00:31:25] Well, first of all, I wanted to comment on his maybe just kind of his mannerisms. He had. I don't know what the word was, but he had so much energy, and it almost seemed like it was overacting to me. So he seemed like he was trying really, really hard to relate to the kids, but it was a little over a little too much. So for me, it was kind of hard to listen to him.

Guest 13 [00:31:48] But the thing that struck me was a lot of the aggressive, like, bully talk and shaming that I felt like he was using, referencing some of his stories. Sometimes he, like, ranged really far with anger. And then he kind of feigned really humility, the spirit, and kind of had like a quakey voice, like he was sort of about to cry a little bit. And so it was almost coming across really desperate. And, like, just he was trying to too much to make it super important.

Guest 13 [00:32:24] And I think that the first part that really started to upset me was when he was talking about his kids playing church. And I expected it to be a really cute story about family home evening or something. Excuse me. But of course, when he talked about his daughter pretending to pass the sacrament, that. That right there was the initial trigger for me.

Guest 12 [00:32:47] What about that?

John Dehlin [00:32:48] What about that? Yeah. So like, he's saying. He's saying, do you know, do any of you in the. Did any of you in the audience ever play church? And then it's like, my daughter played church, and I thought it was cute until. Right. Until I saw her pretend try and pass the sacrament.

Guest [00:33:03] Is that right?

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Why was that triggering for you?

Guest 14 [00:33:06] Well, I don't know.

Guest 13 [00:33:07] My little girl would play Relief Society with me when I was active, and it was cute and it was fun. But he took the story and he turned it into something ugly. And it was. Initially, it was, you know, sexist. And then he got to the point about other Christians playing at Christianity, and I just find that super offensive. But also, I don't see why a child couldn't play to pass the sacrament to her teddy bears or to whatever. That. That seems ridiculous. Why can't she do that? Why would that be worrisome to him? That would be like saying your little boy isn't allowed to wear makeup, because who knows what. What he's gonna think about. About that, you know?

Guest [00:33:45] Yeah.

Guest 13 [00:33:46] It just seemed really unnecessary. And then I think when he got to the. So. So that part was really, really offensive to me about playing Christian or playing Christian. I think that's the way he put it.

Guest 2 [00:33:56] Yeah.

Guest 13 [00:33:58] Playing church. Yeah, playing church. And I just thought instantly, I thought, no wonder Christians can't stand Mormons, and they say that we're not Christian, you know, no wonder they can't stand it. And when he got to the priesthood ban and he made the. He didn't give a good reason, but he made such an offensive comment about African Americans not being able to have the priesthood. That was absolutely gasping. That was horrible. I couldn't believe that there weren't audience members getting up and leaving or objecting verbally. I. I just. I hope if I were there, I would have at least stood.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Yeah.

Guest 13 [00:34:33] To show him that he'd crossed a line.

Guest 7 [00:34:35] But.

Guest 13 [00:34:36] And, you know, obviously, the women still are waiting on that.

Guest [00:34:40] Yeah.

Guest 13 [00:34:40] I don't personally want the priesthood. I don't want to be part of the church anymore. But there are people who feel like that that's something that they want to have. And then thirdly, he. You know, I don't know who said it, but the. The worst threat to the church is intellectuals, feminists, and the LGBTQ community.

Guest 2 [00:34:59] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:35:00] Okay.

Guest 13 [00:35:01] He never even addressed that, at least unless I missed it, because I was really in shock. But.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] And I don't think that he stayed away.

Guest 13 [00:35:08] How many. How many youth in that. In that congregation have friends, family, or themselves have feelings of lgbtq? And he didn't even address that at all. And obviously, you know, we've been through this a lot on your stories and different things recently where there just isn't a place for people who don't fit the stereotypical gender norms in our church. And so he never even addressed that, and I thought that was kind of curious. So.

Guest 15 [00:35:39] Yeah.

Guest 13 [00:35:40] And those are my thoughts.

Guest [00:35:41] Those are great.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] Yeah. So just really quickly, thanks so much. Thanks so much for sharing that. And, yeah, there's so many, so many important things about what you said. So first of all, a huge thanks to Lisa Hayes for donating through the super chat feature of YouTube. That's how we pay for what we do. So, Lisa, thank you so much for sharing and anyone else who wants to support that. So, Beck, a couple things. You talk about his emotionality. I think that's why they hire a lot of these CES people.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] And unfortunately, we don't like to call the Mormon church a cult. We call it a high demand religion. But you know, anyone who's familiar with Stephen Hasson's bite model, the E in byte stands for emotion. And that's a feature, not a bug, for CES instructors. They want hyper emotional instructors because that motivates and manipulates and is a part of undue influence and coercion. If you can get these, these kids to feel super emotional experiences, joy, sadness, manipulation, whatever, and then associate those feelings, either good feelings, well, that's the Holy Ghost telling you the church is true. Or bad feelings, which is Satan telling you not to do things, which happens to be things we've conditioned you to feel guilty or shameful about.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] It's that emotional manipulation that really ties people to the church. So you're saying that made you uncomfortable? I think that's, that's like, was a job requirement for why he got hired.

Guest 13 [00:37:09] Yeah, that maybe. I felt like it came across as really insincere. He tried, he sounded like he was trying to make himself. I don't know. And we're not trying to blacken his name. I know you said that.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] No, no, no, no.

Guest 13 [00:37:24] So. But that kind of thing, it just seemed a little intense. Sort of reminded me of Baptist ministers banging on the pulpit, yelling about things and.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Yeah, and that's just. I think that's ces. CES directors or executives look for that type of person. So it's not about Brad John, by the way. Like, take your pick. They want, they want instructors that will emotionally move the kids because that's where the conversion happens, hopefully. So that's a good point. I think also that point about. He talks about the, you know, he talks about, you know, blacks not receiving the priesthood, which was obviously super offensive. But even though he talked about women not receiving the priesthood, do you remember that part about how he talked about the, the woman who was angry and, and was ignorant about the priesthood, and that was the way he talked about women. Do you remember that part?

Guest 13 [00:38:17] I don't think I do. I don't. I. I remember the story about the bride, too. That Upset me. I thought that was. Has none of his business. And anyway.

John Dehlin [00:38:26] Well, Beck, it's so nice that you called in. So glad. I hope you'll join us again. But thanks for the Mormon Stories podcast.

Guest 3 [00:38:33] Thank you.

Guest 13 [00:38:33] Yeah.

Guest 12 [00:38:34] All right.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] All right.

Guest 13 [00:38:34] Have a great day.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] Thank you. All right, let's see. Let's carry. I'm going to try you one more time. I'm going to hit. Okay. There you are, Kerry, can you hear me? I can. Carrie, where are you joining us from?

Callers Address Gender, Sexuality, and Coercion

Guest 3 [00:38:48] I'm joining you from sunny Palm Springs today.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] Oh, that's wonderful.

Guest 3 [00:38:52] I had to escape the Utah winter for a couple months.

John Dehlin [00:38:55] Oh, we're so glad you were able to join us. Sorry your mic wasn't working earlier. So, Carrie, why don't you tell us, Carrie, what, what you thought about Brad Wilcox's talk.

Guest 3 [00:39:06] Well, you know, like you said, John, we're not in this to crunch on him. Yeah, he's a victim of the, of the patriarchy anyway. But that's right. Quite a while ago I messaged you about the movie that the church put out asking older couples to not leave their inheritance to their apostate children.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:39:28] And you know that that movie was up for one day and then they took it down. I think that the church does not, like you said, does not realize that we have ways of saving these things and seeing them and they react to, to what we are responding to.

Guest [00:39:47] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:39:47] And unfortunately we have lay leaders. So him giving this talk, he's just a person. He's not a trained, trained in seminary pastor type of a thing. It's just an average Joe. And whether they're trying to be cute in their talks and use analogies like chewed up stick of gum or arm yourself with your muskets, I think they, they don't realize what they're actually saying and who they're hurting. And at some point the church is going to have to start pre recording all of these talks and run them past their lawyers and the brethren and make sure that we're not spewing forth things that are going to come back and haunt them.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Yeah. And Carrie, that's such a great point. And I, you know, I, I, this is another comment I read. Like, yeah, one option is for them to hire armies and armies and armies of editors to, to edit every single talk that's ever been given or to vet everything. Another thing they could do is actually listen to people and actually learn from their mistakes and actually change. And if they were able to do that, then they wouldn't have to worry so much. But they just, you know, we. Carrie and I talked about this yesterday on our livestream last night about just. The church taught us all how to repent.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] And if the church would only follow its own steps of repentance, which is recognize that you're doing harmful things. Right. You know, confess it, forsake it, you know, make restitution, and then don't do it again. If they would just like, instead of like, you know, raging against feminists, LGBT people, ex Mormons, liberals, you know, if they would just listen. Listen to people who leave the church, listen to LGBT people, listen to.

Guest 3 [00:41:44] But they have two. They have two big problems with that. One of them is it's doctrine. Yeah, it's doctrine. So now you go back and you say, oh, well, Brigham Young was. He was just speaking as a man. And we're supposed to be able to distinguish when the prophet is speaking as a man or a prophet. They can't get out of what was taught as doctrine, such as the dark skin and the broad nose that, that Brigham Young talked about with the blacks. Until Jimmy Carter comes up and says, hey, we're going to stop with your tax exempt status because you're being too racist. And then suddenly they get a revelation.

John Dehlin [00:42:25] That's a real.

Guest 3 [00:42:25] And I, I was married 42 years ago in the temple, and that's the day I left the church. And since then, my understanding is that they have changed it many times. So my question then is, was it wrong when I was offended by it and now it's right.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] Right.

Guest 3 [00:42:42] Was it right then? And then, if that's the case, it's wrong now, is that correct? So every time I went in front of a bishop or a stake president with my complaints and my problems about the sexism and so forth, I was told to keep sweet. Literally, I was told that I don't know more than Heavenly Father and I need to humble myself and pray harder. So. But now, like you said, we have this younger generation who knows how to turn on a computer.

John Dehlin [00:43:07] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:43:08] They know how to look at social media. They're following people. They're learning things. And the church tried to hide their essays initially because they only wanted them to be sent out to people who were questioning those things. They didn't want, quote, innocent people to find them.

Guest 15 [00:43:24] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:43:24] And now they have to put them all out there and there's hundreds of them. But how can they back away from what they have said?

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Yeah, it's hard doctrine.

Guest 3 [00:43:33] And they claim that their prophets talk to God.

John Dehlin [00:43:35] Yeah, they're in a real pickle. And Even Brad, you can see that with Brad, because he didn't want to trash on Brigham Young because Brigham Young was a prophet, seer and revelator. And that's what gets him into trouble. Because instead of just saying, well, Brigham Young was a racist and he was a product of his time, he can't say that because then all the people in the audience are like, well, then which other prophets are racists or products of their time? So that's what makes him deflect to other justifications. Because he can't just rest and sit with, Brigham Young was a kind of a racist bad guy in many ways anyway.

Guest 3 [00:44:07] But even if they were going to apologize, which it would be nice if they did, and apparently Brad did apologize, but he gave that same talk years ago. Yeah, apologize for it then. So he's getting called out on stuff the same way the church is getting called out on things now.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:44:23] And an apology would be a great thing, but you can't go back and change the doctrine that you've been teaching all of these years and then suddenly say, oops, that wasn't right.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] Yeah, I wouldn't want their job. Well, Carrie, two things. I'm super amazed that you figured out the truth about the church so long ago, but I'm also really impressed that you're still paying attention and maybe even being part of the solution. So, Carrie, thanks for joining us from Palm Springs. Come back. It's so nice to meet you. And thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories Live.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] All right, I'm gonna. There are some super chats coming in. We're really grateful for those, so I'm just going to call them out. The super chat is a way you can donate through YouTube to support this program. Elise writes, if women are higher beings from the previous life, wouldn't you want those higher beings to lead your church? But as far as we can tell all previous leaders in our religion, God and Jesus are men. So, Elise, thank you for that comment, Elise. She's obviously referring to Brad saying that women clearly are more. Right. He said in his talk that women, Mormon women must be more righteous than Mormon men because they're able to do certain things in the temple without the priesthood.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] When whereas it takes men, men are required to get the priesthood. Therefore that must be evidence that women are more righteous than men. And that's kind of a little cookie that he wanted to give Mormon women so that they wouldn't feel bad that they're excluded from all the important decisions in the church. And so, Elise, we really love that comment. Thank you for sharing and for your super chat. And then Wendy writes, I'm concerned about the suicidal undertones of life is not worth living without the gospel. This seems like it would promote suicide. And Wendy, that is such an important point when Brad uses this rhetoric.

Rhetoric of Dependency and Listener Super Chats

John Dehlin [00:46:10] And by the way, a lot of people mentioned this rhetoric, that rhetoric of you, you will not survive without me. You are nothing without me. Your life will be over without me. Guess. Guess where that rhetoric appears. It appears in abusive relationships. If somebody wants to abuse you, that's what they tell you. They make you feel powerless and worthless without them. And I don't know if Brad Wilcox realizes that, but whenever a Mormon church leader, and this isn't just Brad, it's all ces, it's the apostles, the prophet seers and revelators, their wives. All of them do this. They all speak and say, your life is going to be worse without the church.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] You're not going to be happy, you're not going to be healthy without the church. When you do that, you are literally taking a page out of the playbook of abusive partners and spouses when you say that. So Mormon church leaders, please listen to us. Stop saying that your life will be worthless or darker or even inferior. There are some people who leave the church and are healthier and happier, and I know about 50 to 100,000 of them because they're my listeners and followers on YouTube and Facebook and elsewhere on the podcast. So such an important point. Thanks. Thanks for those super chats and thanks to everyone who donates to make this possible.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] Now I'm going to bring on Spencer. He's been waiting a bit of time. Spencer, thanks for joining us. Where, where are you joining us from?

Guest 10 [00:47:38] I'm in the secret location in my lair.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Okay, that's okay. We don't need you to tell us, Spencer. We've got a lot of people wanting to join. But tell us your quick reaction and

Guest 10 [00:47:48] kind of, kind of dovetails on what Carrie was saying is the big picture here. And I do want to mention about Mr. Wilcox, about Brad, he did offer an apology. And, and that does have to count for a lot. You know, he recognized he screwed up.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Absolutely.

Guest 10 [00:48:04] Now, whether it was, you know, did he get a phone call from Salt Lake saying you need to write something? I, I don't know. But in general, people, it's okay to screw up. It's not okay not to. To say sorry. And so I, we got to have him process with that. But the bigger picture, I'm thinking, is the problem is the whole institutional racism that the church has never addressed. It's tried to skirt around it, it's tried to, you know, threw Brigham under the bus about it. But the problem is, until the church recognizes that it has been institutionalized racism for not just blacks, but for all minorities, unless you're a white Protestant, Anglo Saxon male, this church has put up barriers against your progress.

Guest 10 [00:48:49] And, and that's the bigger picture here. Nothing Brad said, like one of the super chats said, nothing he said was against church doctrine. It wasn't like he made a mistake and said anything horrible. But that's, that's my two cents. And I just. What do you feel about that, John?

John Dehlin [00:49:03] Yeah, no, I appreciate it. And yeah, and it's just so tricky. I, I appreciate your perspective. I appreciate that you're acknowledging that he did something that's hard, which is to apologize. And I think we should just take our best faith interpretation of that and say that he meant it and be grateful that he's willing to say it. There was a problem with his apology in that he only apologized for the racist stuff and he didn't just full stop say, I'm sorry I was racist.

Guest 11 [00:49:38] He.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] What he really said was, I'm sorry. You guys didn't understand what I was trying to say.

Guest 5 [00:49:42] Right.

Guest 10 [00:49:43] It was more like a victim blame, kind of a victim blame again.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] But still, still, anytime you get up and say you're sorry, even if the church makes you, even if they forced you, I mean, and we don't know that maybe he meant it. There was also the problem. We talked about this last night that his wife got on Facebook with Gerardo. Yeah. Started saying Brad did nothing wrong. You guys were just all dim witted people that didn't understand what he was saying. That also made me wonder a little bit how, how sorry Brad really felt. Combined with the fact that he's been given this exact talk now we know for years because there are other Internet instances of him giving the talk still. Let's have a good faith interpretation and we'll invite Brad Wilcox, if you're listening. If any of you know Brad, we would love to have you on Mormon Stories podcast to tell your story.

Guest 10 [00:50:28] I'm sure there's people that listening that know him better. And I have, I've crossed paths with him a couple times. And you know what? I don't blame his wife either for being defensive that she gets, she gets a pass on that being, you know, irrationally defensive, maybe to a, to a fault. That's okay. But like I said, the bigger point here is until the Church embraces its racisms and apologizes for that, we're not going to see any. This will happen every once in a while. It's just like with the lgbq, TQ issues. The church is always going to be stepping this because it's not a matter of, oh, just one prophet made a mistake. He was a man of his times. It's part of the doctrine. You can't get away from that.

Guest 14 [00:51:08] Yeah.

Guest 10 [00:51:09] You know, so that's, that's the bigger picture, I, I think is that the church needs to admit if they ever want to move forward. And frankly, my. My big picture is I hope the last Mormon out turns off the lights as they leave.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] So you're not, you're not, you're not necessarily the biggest fan of the church doing, doing well and strong in the future.

Guest 10 [00:51:30] I'm a fan of people. I'm not a fan of the damage, the harmful fakes, false beliefs cause. And that's the bigger picture here. We've got. How many. How many dead kids have we got? How many, you know, suicides? How many people just feel horrible about them? How many women today, Today, right now, today in Utah, Salt Lake, Weber, Davis Counties are. Are ingesting chemicals to try and keep their, their anxiety down because they've been told to be perfect and they can't be.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Yeah.

Guest 10 [00:52:01] So. So there. That's a bigger picture.

Guest 8 [00:52:03] Yeah.

Guest 10 [00:52:04] The church's false beliefs are harmful.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] Yeah. Well, Spencer, it's so nice to have you. I hope to see you again. Please keep in touch and tuning in. Thanks for so much.

Guest [00:52:15] All right.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] Hey, really. I'm sorry. I just cut him off really quickly. Gerald is making a really good point. Today we are likely to surpass 50, 000 YouTube subscribers if everyone subscribes. So we're like a hundred away. So it's. It's in theory. In theory, it's possible that during this live stream, we can kind of achieve something that we weren't sure would be possible, which is seven, which is we're 49, 965. So if everybody right now who's following us on YouTube, or even those who aren't want to go to YouTube, log in and subscribe to the Mormon Stories podcast channel, wouldn't it be awesome if we could reach 50,000 channel subscribers by the time we end our show in like 20 or 30 minutes?

John Dehlin [00:53:01] So thanks, Gerardo, for that suggestion. I also want to say, if any of you are Discord fans, if any of you have used the platform Discord, we are launching a Mormon Stories podcast, Discord Channel Discord. We'll talk about this later. Discord is slightly different. It's kind of like Reddit in, in, in in the sense that you can manage your own identity whether you want to use your real identity or not. But what it allows for is synchronous conversation. So instead of like Reddit, where you post a comment and then you wait for people to respond, or instead of like Facebook where you have to kind of use your name and your real identity and you post something and wait for people to respond.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] Discord is a platform used for younger people. Well, it's used by younger people more and it allows you to actually have real time chats with people, either in text form or in audio or in video form. You could watch stuff together. You can have conversations and it's a great way to form community. And if you go to the description here on YouTube or on Facebook, there's links to the Discord channel and there's actually a link to a sub thread within the Mormon Stories podcast Discord Channel about the Brad Wilcox talk. So I just want to let you all know Mormon Stories is jumping on Discord.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] We would love you all to join us. Check out the links and we would love, love to let you guys encourage you guys to build community and to continue the conversation there really quickly. Ray Allen, thanks for your super chat. Ray writes everyone needs to report Brad Wilcox's official church social media account as as hate speech. Ray, thank you for that perspective.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] And that is a really interesting point, Ray. BYU has basically made a statement on Twitter where they expressed concern about Brad's. I'm going to go ahead right now and share BYU's announcement just because I think it's worth sharing. It basically says we are deeply concerned with the words recently used by Dr. Brad Wilcox. We appreciate his sincere apology and believe he is committed to learn from this experience. BYU remains committed to upholding President Nelson's charge to root out racism in our institutions. And I do want to commit commend BYU for making those sorts of statements. I guess I just have a couple of questions. Why don't they ever make those statements?

John Dehlin [00:55:23] Why didn't they make that statement about Elder, Elder Holland? Like Elder Holland said something way worse than, than Brad Wilcox. Where was BYU then? And then of course we know that Brad Wilcox has been teaching this garbage as a BYU professor for years, if not decades and speaking this type of stuff at efy. Not to mention all the other religion professors and all the other EFY teachers that have been teaching identical stuff to Brad. Why is it The BYU is now making the statement versus years ago and lots of other people. I mean, it has to be that he got caught. So I would say byu, can you clean up your act?

John Dehlin [00:55:59] Can you get your religious professors and even your prophet seers and revelators to control and to clean up their speech preemptively? Not just when Mormon stories, podcasts, and others kind of shine a spotlight on them and kind of you get called out on it. So anyway, thanks so much for that super chat. Super useful. Thanks again to Spencer for joining us. We've got so many people called in. All right, it's time to turn to Lacy. Lacy, where are you? Jo, where are you joining us from? Lacy?

Guest 16 [00:56:33] So I am from northeast Texas.

Guest 7 [00:56:35] Oh.

John Dehlin [00:56:36] So what part. Oh, do. You don't have to say if you

Guest 16 [00:56:38] don't want to, Cadillac, if you know that where that is.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] All right, so fellow Texan, thanks for joining us on Mormon stories. I. You probably may or may not know. I grew up in Houston, in Canada.

Guest 16 [00:56:49] Yeah. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] All right, Lacey, well, we've got a bunch of people joining us. So tell us really quickly, what is one comment you want to make about Brad Wilcox's talk?

Guest 16 [00:56:57] Well, my biggest problem is, like, you've talked about. This isn't the first time he's. It's been proven that he's given this talk over and over again. My biggest issue is at the core, why was this allowed to go on for so long? And it really boils down to no one was standing up and saying, you cannot say this to our youth.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] Yeah.

Guest 16 [00:57:20] So you're perpetuating this idea to the youth of the church, which now is 11 to 18 years old.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] Yeah.

Guest 16 [00:57:28] And they're there with their parents, they're there with their leaders, and no one is stopping him.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] Yeah.

Guest 16 [00:57:34] No one's stopping to say, this is not okay.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Yeah.

Guest 16 [00:57:38] So that just gives the impression that, like, well, that's just how it is.

John Dehlin [00:57:42] Yeah. And Lacy. And Lacy. That was one of my biggest aha moments. And I said this yet last night with Kara in the live stream, there were nine stake presidency members across three stakes at that fireside. There were 36 stake high councilors. Between the three stakes. There were nine Relief Society presidency members and then hundreds, if not thousands of attendees. And nobody. Nobody stopped to hear what he had to say.

Guest 16 [00:58:10] I mean, you didn't hear the chairs moving from people getting up to leave. None of that. And we're teaching our youth on Sundays to stand for truth and righteous. Righteousness to be with, to mourn with those that mourn to bear one another's burdens. But you're setting the example that it's okay to do that unless it comes from your church leader.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] Yeah.

Guest 16 [00:58:31] Because you're not supposed to speak negatively

Guest 12 [00:58:33] about a church leader.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] I remember. Remember. I don't know if you remember this, but a few years ago, this. This young girl named Savannah gets up in sacrament meeting and testimony meeting.

Guest 16 [00:58:42] They cut her mic.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] Yeah. All she said was, I'm lesbian.

Guest 10 [00:58:45] She.

John Dehlin [00:58:45] All she said was, this is who I am. And they literally get done, have her sit down. And Brad Wilcox literally says one of the most racist things we've ever heard a public Mormon official say. And everybody's just like, smiling and. And nodding, and no one gets up because it's.

Guest 16 [00:59:02] It's institutionalized. That's what it's in the doctrine. It's the way we've been raised. And you're supposed to teach your kids to be these good up Right. Standing citizens.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] Yeah.

Guest 16 [00:59:13] Speak up and say something.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] Yeah.

Guest 16 [00:59:16] Because you're complicit if you don't.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] So good. Lacy, it's so nice for you to call in from Texas.

Guest 16 [00:59:22] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:59:23] Some Mormon stories. Stay in touch. Okay?

Guest 17 [00:59:25] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] All right. Thanks, Lacy. All right. I'm so happy that a fellow Texan. Fellow Texan. Joined us. Matt G. You've been super patient. Matt G. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories Live.

Callers Discuss the Apology and Mixed-Faith Families

Matt [00:59:39] Hi, John. And of course, good to be on with you. Great comments from the other folks that have been on here.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] So you're in your shop. I can see your work, your workbench behind you. That's awesome.

Matt [00:59:50] Oh, I'm kind of a tech nerd. Right. With the electronics and radio stuff. So, yeah, you get to see my messy, messy little shop here.

Guest [00:59:58] So.

John Dehlin [00:59:58] And do you want to share where you're joining us from, or would you rather not?

Matt [01:00:02] I'm in Davis county, so.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] Okay. Davis County. All right.

Guest 7 [01:00:06] Whoa, whoa.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] I just have to. I have to make breaking news. I just got a text from Jen. Because of the call out, we have now officially broken 50, 000 subscribers on YouTube. Right now, it's at 50,022.

Guest [01:00:19] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] Huge thanks to Jen to flagging me for that. And. And let's stop going.

Guest 5 [01:00:25] Let's not.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] I mean, we're getting like 2 to 3,000 subscribers a month. If we can keep up this momentum, we can just. Just in the next, you know, in the next 12 months, if we're getting 2,000amonth, we can grow to 70,000. And basically there's this weird. And I'm Sorry to take your time, Matt, but there's this weird exponential thing where the more popular you get on YouTube, the more they share your stuff in the algorithm. So let's just keep it going. But huge shout out to Gerardo, to Kara, to Jennifer, to Brooklyn, to, to, to Jen, to our board for all making this important day possible. And to all of you, our listeners and viewers, thanks for helping us reach 50, 000. I'm going to go ahead and show a screenshot of this because I'm just so thrilled this is, this is a Screenshot of our YouTube and as you see there, boom.

Guest [01:01:21] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] 50,022 subscribers. And we hope that it just continues to grow because that just means more and more people are learning about the Mormon Church, the truth about the Mormon Church. And we're supporting faith transitions and healing and growth after Mormonism. So Matt, sorry to take so much of your time. Matt, what, what is one quick thing you want to share about Brad Wilcox's talk?

Matt [01:01:48] Yeah, first of all, you guys have done a great job job deconstructing everything that's been said. You know, since the weekend here, I haven't heard a discussion about discernment and actually the lack there.

Guest [01:02:00] Yeah.

Matt [01:02:01] So, you know, I, I'm more like minded as far as the way Kara thinks the demonstration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the lack of discernment just continues to reverberate over and over and over again.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] So for our non Mormon listeners, tell us what, tell us quickly in a sentence or two what you were taught in terms of like the, the doctrine, let's call it the doctrine of discernment. What is the doctrine?

Guest 2 [01:02:29] Sure.

Matt [01:02:29] And I'm sure this is still included especially in leadership manuals, you know, having served as a bishop many years ago, as you know.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] Wow, you're a former bishop.

Guest [01:02:37] Yeah.

Matt [01:02:38] Back in 2000-2004, we met John.

Guest 8 [01:02:40] It's been.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] Yeah, we had Indian folks food with Kara. That was amazing. And Matt, a great supporter of Mormon Stories podcast.

Matt [01:02:47] Oh yeah, well, thanks.

Guest [01:02:48] That's.

Matt [01:02:48] It's such an easy thing to do. Great work.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] So discernment.

Matt [01:02:52] Right. Is taught in those manuals, especially those leadership manuals. And they, they act as though there is some type of supernatural interaction with local church leadership. And clearly all the way up the chain to, you know, the prophet Russell M. Nelson, for example, that there is this distinct discernment of being able to prophesy and see and revelate. And what they continue to demonstrate is there's prophets that don't prophesy, seers that don't see and revelators that do not reveal. And where was the discernment in the church foreseen that this video would be made public? Where was the discernment getting ahead of anything as far as an apology, etc? I mean, I, I'm kind of, you know, stating the obvious at this point, but that's what I wanted to point out. There's other things, but you should give some others a chance too.

John Dehlin [01:03:46] No, that's, that's important. You know, on the one hand, and I was listening to. People are sharing with me all sorts of videos now, but I was listening to one with Apostle Dale Runlund, you know, closes this, this fireside thing he's doing or this training where he's like, I know, and he says I know like 12 times in his closing testimony. And, and that's code in Mormonism for I'm a pr. I'm a special witness of Jesus as a Mormon apostle, which, which they want everyone to think that he's had a personal visit from Jesus and, and that he has, like, special Jesus powers because he's, you know, claims to be a special witness of Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:04:29] And, and, you know, what we're learning is they don't have special powers. And in fact, they've got blinders. Instead of having discernment, what they have is blinders. And instead of being 20 or 30 years ahead of the times, they're always 10 to 20 to 30 years behind the times. And I think, yeah, Matt, the doctrine of discernment is one of the most damaging parts about Mormonism. And I'm so glad you mentioned it. So thank you for sharing. Thanks for coming on. And Matt, thank you. You've been an important supporter of Mormon stories, so I just want to publicly thank you for your support. It means a lot.

Matt [01:05:02] Well, yeah, thank you to Geraldo. I'm going to say his name wrong. And Karen, you and the rest of the team, I think there's a few other people behind the scenes there.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] It's absolutely.

Matt [01:05:10] It's tireless. I can't believe what you've cranked out here over the last couple days. So thank you.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] Well, we're only going to be ramping it up, so thanks. Thanks, Matt. And so will you stay tuned? Will you stay until. Let's do Indian again soon with you and Kara and whatever family members you want to bring.

Matt [01:05:24] Oh, I need time.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] All right. All right. Thanks, Matt. Stay tuned. Okay. All right. I'm loving it. I don't want to end. And we're gonna have to end in about 15 minutes, but there are a few slots open, so anyone who wants to join can. And I'm trying to kind of rotate male, female, male, female. So that means. Rita, you're up. Rita, thank you for joining us on on Mormon Stories Live. Where are you calling us from if you're comfortable sharing?

Guest 12 [01:05:51] I'm calling from Washington state.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] Okay, Washington state. I lived there for seven years. So shout out to Washington State. And I'm hearing a fan going, but

Guest 12 [01:06:03] yeah, it's cold in here.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] No, it's good. Okay. So Rita, what is. We want to try and get everyone in. So Rita, what is one thing you want to share about Brad Wilcox's talk?

Guest 12 [01:06:15] The one thing I just wanted to share is that I was in a mixed faith marriage for about 12 years. My husband is a never Mormon and was never baptized into the church. And he just went every Sunday, like every Sunday for 12 years. He just went to be supportive of our family and of our marriage and our children who are baptized. And it pretty much came down to reading Joseph Smith Roughstone rolling for me. And once I kind of got more church history and understood the all the truth claims that they were real and that they were not, it wasn't anti Mormon. It wasn't all made up.

Guest 12 [01:07:04] Once I, I understood what the history of the church really was, it made it completely devastating for me. I gave my husband so much crap about never getting baptized and I gave him so much garbage about not loving me enough to take me to a temple and marry me. And yeah, he sealed to me and to my kids and I made his life a living hell for years.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] And sometimes you guys work that through. How does that tell me, is your, is, is your reflection on Brad's talk connected to you having lived in a mixed faith marriage or was there something else about Brad's talk that really struck you?

Guest 12 [01:07:46] I really didn't like his comments about women in the priesthood. Yeah, I thought he kind of sidestepped why women aren't allowed to. I mean, priesthood is really just acting like having the authority to act on God's behalf. How come women can't act on God's behalf? Yeah, how come only men can act on God's behalf? You know, how come women aren't capable of being healers or people who can, you know, bless a union of two people who are in love with one another? I, I never understood that for myself,

John Dehlin [01:08:15] but I think he was trying to say, hey women, you have more power than you think.

Guest 12 [01:08:18] Yeah, he was trying to say we were so valiant in the pre existence, we don't actually need to be endowed with any power.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] Why didn't that feel like. But Rita, why didn't that feel like a gift? Like, oh my gosh, he's giving you such a compliment. You're better than half of the world just by the, you know, genetics and the genitalia that you were born with. Why weren't you like, whoa, I'm coming back to church because I'm better than all the men.

Guest [01:08:42] Why.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] Why wasn't that compelling to you?

Guest 12 [01:08:45] Just because I've been through the temple service. I was through it before they changed the words where you have to hearken to your husband who hearkens to God, that you're not allowed to get your. Your own revelation directly from God. You have to get it from your husband first.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] But why didn't his words make you feel good?

Guest 12 [01:09:04] Because I just felt like they were fake.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] Women are better than men. So, like, there, you don't even need the priesthood because you're already better than men. Why didn't that make you feel good?

Guest 12 [01:09:14] Because I didn't feel it was sincere at all.

John Dehlin [01:09:17] Oh.

Guest 12 [01:09:17] I didn't feel the sincerity in his words at all. I thought it was placating, kind of trying to make women, you know, like

John Dehlin [01:09:25] patting them on the head like, you're, you're good.

Guest 12 [01:09:27] Don't worry.

Guest 3 [01:09:27] You.

Guest 12 [01:09:28] You're better than the men. You don't even need this stuff. But really, honestly, when you think about it and all of the ways that we. Even a Relief society president can't make any decisions on her own. She has to take it to the bishop, who then has to take it to a stake president if he needs to. I mean, basically, like, women aren't even allowed, even when they're endowed with presidential power, can't even act on their own behalf on. For the women that they support. They have to still go get an authority, approval from a bishop or a stake president or someone higher up.

John Dehlin [01:10:04] Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm so glad you and your husband have worked through that mixed faith marriage stuff, because that can be super hard.

Guest 12 [01:10:12] It was really hard. It was a very big challenge for us. Um, but we're, we're going strong. And I think we went to the Thrive event last month. It was awesome.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] Oh, in Seattle?

Guest 12 [01:10:23] No, and actually in. In Oregon.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] Oh, you're in Larsen and David Bachavoy.

Guest 12 [01:10:29] Yes. And it was awesome.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] Why you made me think of it. We have St. George thrive this very weekend. So if any of you want to, to see, you know, Jesse Funk, Sam Young, myself Natasha Helfer, a lot of cool speakers. Most importantly, though, meet community, make friends. There's going to be karaoke. There's going to be an open bar for those who drink. I don't drink, but we're going to have a great time in St. George this weekend. Go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and register. There's still some seats left. We would love to see you guys there. And Reid, I'm so glad that you. I'm so glad you called in.

Guest 12 [01:11:04] I am so honored to talk to you. I have wanted to talk to you for. For the longest time. And if I can just say one more thing. Having a husband who was baptized as a Baptist.

John Dehlin [01:11:15] Yeah.

Guest 12 [01:11:16] Having his whole family practice in a Baptist religion, it was super offensive even to me. It was always offensive to me to have people say that my husband couldn't have the gift of the Holy Ghost. It was offensive to me to have him sitting there beside me as people didn't know he wasn't baptized. There's so many people. He just blended in. He set up the chairs. He showed up. I mean, he was a volunteer. He did everything everyone else did.

Guest 12 [01:11:42] No one knew until you said, like, oh, he can't pass the sacrament because he's not actually baptized a member. But when people would say things like in gospel doctrine about saying like that this was the only true church and that people who aren't baptized can't feel the Holy Ghost on a regular basis, that was always very super offensive to me on his behalf. Like, it made me really mad talking about authority to be baptized. Now I've got questions about my own baptism. I mean, if there's no such thing, if there's no priesthood, if there, you know, then it. Does my baptism count?

Guest 18 [01:12:23] Yeah.

Guest 12 [01:12:23] You know what I mean? That kind of thing. So it's just, it made more problems in the long run for me, faith wise and I'm grateful because, you know, playing church, that that's a really derogatory, offensive term to use to people who actually have probably more religion than a lot of the members in this church.

Guest 2 [01:12:48] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:12:48] I mean, you don't imagine Jesus insulting a bunch of people, flexing, bragging, and speaking down to other people just trying to follow Jesus the best they can. It just. How could it help so.

Guest 12 [01:13:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] Rita, you've made great comments. It's so nice to meet you. Thanks for joining you.

Guest 12 [01:13:06] It's so nice to meet you. Call me. We'll. We'll do podcast. I have like so many, so many Years of. Was in the. Born into the church, left the church, went back to church, left the church again.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] All right, well, look at this.

Guest 4 [01:13:20] Crazy.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] Look at this. You. You've now been on Mormon Stories podcast. That's a good start.

Guest 12 [01:13:24] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] All right, Rita, you take care. All right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:13:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:13:28] This is so fun. We've got so many people that we want to join. Matt Stoddard. We've got a lot of people you've been waiting very patiently, Matt. Mark, do you want to share with us where you're joining us from?

Guest 11 [01:13:38] Yeah. From Tulsa, Oklahoma, Little town called Oaso.

John Dehlin [01:13:42] You're an Okie.

Guest 11 [01:13:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] All right. I'm so happy you joined us, Mark. Well, we're running out of time, but tell us your main. I think, start.

Manipulation, Coercion, and High-Demand Religion

Guest 11 [01:13:52] Yeah, sorry. I think all the comments have been great. For me personally, having lived in the church for 40 plus years now out six, I. I think the concern I have is the continuation of manipulative, coercive speech.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] Yeah, it's.

Guest 11 [01:14:07] It's not necessarily that we need to shoot the messenger.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] Yeah.

Guest 11 [01:14:11] But we, we. This is a great. Because you guys have done such a great offer thing, educating all of us on informed consent, other things like this. This is, to me, this is another opportunity to educate people on manipulative, coercive speech and helping others and all of us look at things logically and critically. I mean, I, I, throughout my whole life in the church, I was always the. The guy that would, you know, sat in the temple. I mean, when I was a student at the U, I was a veil

John Dehlin [01:14:44] worker at the temple.

Guest 11 [01:14:45] And I remember the first time I went in there and I looked up at this cherub thing behind the veil, and I went, what's that? Where'd that come from? And then later learned it was a gift from the Catholic Church. And I went, well, that's kind of odd. Why. Why is there a gift from the Catholic Church in art in the celestial room of the premier temple? So the point here is, you know, I think the more we educate all of us to think critically and logically and to look at these things and go, hey, you know, how do we help our youth that are still in this, recognize that type of speech for what it is?

Guest [01:15:25] Yeah.

Guest 11 [01:15:26] And I think that's what concerns me when I, if, when I look at that, I think, well, okay, what? I was a youth in the church. You know, I was a little different. I kind of left for a few years when I was a youth. But it's the same thing. If I was sitting There going, okay, Brother Wilcox, you know, I could be the gullible one going, oh, yeah. Oh, God. You know, you know, but maybe I'm the one that's over here thinking, hey, I don't know. That doesn't sound right. So that's kind of my. Well, not kind of. That is my point here.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] I think that is so important. And the truth is, it's, it's in the youth. It's in kind of that very vulnerable developmental time period that were most impressionable. And the church knows that. Like, I, I, One of the. I've. I have an inside source that's been telling me kind of what's going on in the church. And what I found out is that they're, they're offloading everything that they possibly can from the bishop. They're giving all the responsibilities to the elders quorum president and the Relief Society president right now, and they're telling the bishop, your only job is to save the youth.

Guest 11 [01:16:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] Because the youth are not only the future of the church, the church is hemorrhaging their youth. And, and, and, but, but, but one of the main techniques of influencing the youth, some would say unduly, is emotional manipulation. Coercion.

Guest 11 [01:16:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] And so, Mark, you're, you're bringing up a really important.

Guest 11 [01:16:50] Well, a little side point here too. I grew up in the same ward as Alan Mount. His dad was my bishop.

John Dehlin [01:16:57] Oh, fun.

Guest 11 [01:16:58] Oh, yeah. What a great guy. You both. You guys are just. I have to, again, throw the, the dart of complimentary words and say you guys are just doing a wonderful work for, you know, all of us that have left and, and, you know, for, and, you know, at the end of the day, too things, these types of speeches and talks, they just serve to kind of continue to make it more difficult. And I think that's the other point here.

John Dehlin [01:17:26] We, yeah, we.

Guest 11 [01:17:27] What you're doing and, and, and, and what others are doing is trying to help us. Hey, you've left. Let's, let's figure this thing out. Let's. What's going on here? And, and personally, when you hear all this kind of stuff. Yep. He's toeing the line, you know, saying that, you know, standard stuff. But what's wrong with that line? And we don't ask ourselves that question often. Often enough. And I think that's what the youth are just sitting there. Just some of them, like, they're just gullible. They're just drinking the Kool Aid.

John Dehlin [01:17:56] Yeah. Yeah. Great points, Mark. You're the best. Thanks so much for joining us. Stay in touch. Okay, Mark?

Guest [01:18:02] I will.

Guest 11 [01:18:02] Have a good one.

John Dehlin [01:18:03] Take care of yourself in Oklahoma.

Guest 4 [01:18:04] Yep.

Lightning Round of Rapid Caller Responses

John Dehlin [01:18:04] All right, we're going to do something a little bit different now. I want to do what's called a lightning round. So we've got several people that are still waiting. I want to see if we can get to all of them. But the way that we're going to do it is it's going to be a little bit less conversational, and I just want to give each person, like, 30 seconds to make their point, and let's see if you guys can do that. And the. The downside is you kind of have to censor yourself. The upside is you'll get on and your waiting won't have been in vain. So the first person we're going to do is. Yep, it's me. All right, you got 30 seconds. Yep, it's me. Well, my point was, you know, Christ

Guest 14 [01:18:40] was such a person of his time, such a.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] He supported the marginalized in his time. And I just don't see this talk supporting the marginalized at all. It's, you know, taking the people who are hurt and just throwing them under the bus. And why would you do that? Not. Not only why would you do that? Because these people are hurt, but if Christ represented the marginalized, why. Why wouldn't that be your priority, not the people you throw under the bus? Right. Yep, it's me.

Guest 3 [01:19:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:19:10] That's, like, that was my thing. Great point. Thanks for joining us today. Yep, it's me. Join us again. All right, Colby, you've been waiting. Colby, 30 seconds. What's the point you want to make?

Guest 5 [01:19:23] Hi, John.

Guest 8 [01:19:24] I just wanted to thank you so much for your point about how this is not about Brad Wilcox. It's really about a system. I've exchanged some emails with you about a situation where in our ward where, you know, my wife and I lost our faith, because a lot of times the individuals are markers of the system. And that's the thing that's been really distressing to me is from TBM's Responding to Brad Wilcox's apology and his comments afterwards is saying, well, he apologized or he was taken out of context. And the truth is, it's not about being taken out of context or his apology. It's about the system, because he is a representation of the system. System.

John Dehlin [01:20:07] Yeah. Well, it's. We can never have that reminder too much. We're not trashing on Brad Wilcox. We're not trying to shame him. He represents the church, and he's. If anything, he's. I Don't want to say he's a victim, but he's just a reflection of the church. He's not the problem. The problem starts from the top. And, Colby, you may be joining us soon on Mormon Stories. Is that right?

Guest 8 [01:20:28] Next week is the plan? That's right.

John Dehlin [01:20:30] We'll see you next week, brother.

Guest 8 [01:20:32] Thanks, Joe.

John Dehlin [01:20:32] Thanks for joining us. All right. Oh, my goodness. We have the. We have the Hallie Everts Back on Mormon Stories podcast. Hallie, did you know that your episode of Mormon Stories is one of the top episodes in the history of Mormon stories? Did you know that?

Guest 19 [01:20:47] That is what I've heard. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:49] Yeah. You're a star, and I feel bad that we have to kind of go quickly. But, Hallie, congratulations on so many things since your interview.

Guest 19 [01:20:57] Yeah, thanks. Don't waste time on that. I just. Okay, my point.

John Dehlin [01:21:02] What's your point, Holly?

Guest 19 [01:21:04] Okay, so if anyone, you know, did watch my interview and heard my story, the thing that kept me in the church for so long was fear. And that is exactly what I hate to see about. What Brad Wilcox did is especially for youth who looks at people like him, Uchtdorf, Holland. You know, they love him, so. So they automatically put more weight on what he says, and he's just pushing all this fear, like, oh, you're concerned. Your worries, your doubts, they don't matter. You have to stay here. You have to do this, because if you don't, you're never going to be happy, you're never going to be with your family, blah, blah, blah, all the things you're threatened with.

Guest 19 [01:21:44] And that just keeps people stuck in something that is clearly so unhealthy and damaging. And it breaks my heart that these poor youth are just in that place that I was in, stuck here because they're scared. So.

John Dehlin [01:21:57] Yeah. And fear is one of the emotions that they rely on most, along with shame to, you know, as part of the bite model. To really lock you in.

Guest 19 [01:22:07] Exactly. You pointed that out with my story, and I can just see it so clearly now and so many other people, and I'm just.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] It makes me so angry. Yeah. Well, Holly, you're amazing. You do great work. I'm happy to see you smiling, and I hope you'll come back on Mormon Stories.

Guest 19 [01:22:24] Maybe.

John Dehlin [01:22:25] Thank you, Hallie. Take care. All right, man. We've got so many people. All right, let's. Let's do it again. Kristen, you're Next. What's your 30 seconds on Brad Wilcox or the Mormon Church? And we need to unmute you, so I'll unmute you don't worry about it.

Guest 9 [01:22:42] I got it.

Guest [01:22:43] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:43] What's your comment, Kristen?

Guest 14 [01:22:45] So thank you.

Guest 12 [01:22:46] Happy to be here.

Guest 14 [01:22:49] His talk was just distasteful and offensive on so many levels. It's hard to pick one. But being an educated woman, a highly educated woman, I have to take issue with his comments on women in the priesthood and it really was a false equivalency to equate women's.

Guest 14 [01:23:09] We'll call it valiant valiancy in the pre existence to not having the priesthood and the priesthood keys. And it's, it's just so incredibly demeaning and so many women, including myself, have suffered greatly because of the church's anti feminism and that's one of the primary reasons that I left. You know, this was far, far long before all the, you know, everything had come out about the, the problems with the church's doctrine. But it's just the anti feminism is so damaging to the youth. And you know, the. One of the very first thoughts I had when I started to hear him talk was my favorite quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Yay.

Guest 14 [01:24:03] Women belong in all places where decisions are being made.

John Dehlin [01:24:09] Amen.

Guest 14 [01:24:10] You know, amen. And then if you take his comments to the logical conclusion, you know that women already have the answers. We, we're so, you know, we don't need these lessons, but men do. So we have the priesthood. Then what you have actually admitted is that the blind are leading the blind. So we knew it all along.

John Dehlin [01:24:32] Thank you, Kristen. Anyone who quotes RBG is a friend of mine.

Guest 20 [01:24:38] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] Being patient. Thanks for your support of Mormon Stories podcast. All right, well we're going to try and get at least a few more in. Wait, that's Kristen. Holly. J. Holly, hi. What would you like to say about Brad's talk? So I'm never been a Mormon but ex Baptist and y we love never Mormons on this show. Ex Baptist that suffered a lot through

Guest 13 [01:25:05] that ostracized by my family for coming

John Dehlin [01:25:08] out as gay 20 years ago. That's a whole nother story. His talk just put me back in Baptist church camp in the summer when you have no adults, your parents aren't

Guest 13 [01:25:18] around, they give you the fear, they

John Dehlin [01:25:19] give you the, the, you know, more hellfire and brimstone. Maybe in Baptist, but the fear and the emotional manipulation just made my stomach turn listening. So that felt familiar to you? Oh, absolutely. So you saw right through it and that's.

Guest 12 [01:25:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:35] I just have to say it's so validating to hear that from other high demand religions because sometimes we Think we're the only ones. Sometimes we think we're weird or unique, but it's also. Sometimes we feel alone. And it's nice to know that there's people like you out there that. And it's not. I'm not happy that you had a hard experience, too, but it, like, makes us feel part of the human race because Mormons tend to isolate. And I'm just thrilled. I'd love to have you back maybe on Mormon stories to tell your story. Holly would love to. Thanks so much for joining. What state are you covering?

Guest 6 [01:26:09] Indiana.

Guest 3 [01:26:10] Indianapolis.

Guest 10 [01:26:10] Oh.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] Who's your state? All right, Holly.

Guest 3 [01:26:14] Hey, congrats.

Guest 16 [01:26:14] 50,000.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] Yeah, we made 50,000. Thanks for being a part of it, Holly. All right, thanks for joining us. Take care. All right, we've got time for a few more. This has been. This has been so fun. That's the first time we've done this. We need to do it more. I'm glad it's worked out so well. Cam, you've been patient. If you want to tell us where you're joining us from and what do you want to say about Brad Wilcox's talk?

Guest 15 [01:26:36] Sure.

Guest 18 [01:26:37] Coming from Canada.

Guest 8 [01:26:39] Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:26:40] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:26:41] Yep.

Guest 18 [01:26:43] So quickly, I was. I. I was. I was. Clearly, the talk was very offensive, and I was shocked that I. I kind of want to focus my point on more the apology. And I was shocked that the only specific point that was really apologized for was the black priesthood ban, you know, and that we didn't really get into any of the other misogynistic, you know, faith shaming aspects of the talk. But I have hope in this. I hope that the backlash that this is created creates a president for more apologies in the future from. From maybe offensive talks. I know that, you know, President Oaks has already said that the church doesn't seek apologies and we don't make them.

Guest 18 [01:27:25] But I found. I found a glimmer of hope, I think, in Brad Wilcox talk. To actually see an apology was. Was reassuring for me. And hopefully, hopefully, there'll be more apologies in the future to come.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] Cam. I love that point because, yes, you know, we all been taught the steps of repentance. Apology is part of it, and it should be celebrated. We should actually take this moment to say thank you, Mormon Church, for the apology. And it's weird because it already proves Dallin H. Oaks's comment false because clearly he was told to give apology. So the church does seek apologies. They sought out an apology from Brad Wilcox, so. So, yeah, I think, to follow on your point, if they can just keep. Keep that up. Keep practicing both seeking apologies from apostles, employees, spokespeople, keep seeking apologies when people do or say things wrong and then also start giving them what a wonderful that could transform the church right there. Right?

Guest 9 [01:28:29] Absolutely.

Guest 18 [01:28:30] And I think Karen yourself talked about it last night on your, on your live stream talking about how the was something that I took away from it last night was how much good it could do if, if, if the Mormon church just owns their mistakes in the past and not shifting all blame onto, you know, racist and misogynistic homophobic traits onto God. You know, and it was said that God can take it, but I think it would keep more people in and I think if they, if the church had a long term plan of making those efforts then they would see more, more people stay than, than walk.

John Dehlin [01:29:04] It would be good for them. Like it would actually probably be not only healthy to model but maybe even good for their own vitality.

Guest 18 [01:29:12] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:29:13] Cam, you sound really smart. I'd love to have you back on Mormon Stories sometime. Love to be there. Yeah, it's, it's really nice to have you, Cam. And I hope to stay in touch. Thank you so much.

Guest 18 [01:29:22] Thank you, John.

Final Callers Share Personal Impact and Takeaways

John Dehlin [01:29:24] All right, we're running out of time, but I have to bring in Faith. Holy moly, Faith. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Okay, wait, let me end. Your microphone's not working. Faith, I don't know if you need to go into cam mic and make sure in the cam mic settings that your care that your microphone is set. But Faith, we really want to bring you on. So Faith, see if you can test your microphone settings really quick under cam mic settings on your browser and you'll be able to see a little meter going that shows your mic is working. But I'm going to bring you out of the stream just for a second and try and bring you back in because we'd love to have you.

John Dehlin [01:30:03] Allie, you've been waiting patiently. If you want to turn your camera 90 degrees, we'll see a full span of you but also that work. Is there a kid in the background?

Guest 20 [01:30:12] Yes, I have a 2 year old. I was going to apologize for that

John Dehlin [01:30:15] because she might apologies.

Guest 20 [01:30:17] Make an appearance.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] We celebrate stay at home moms or a mom. We celebrate moms.

Guest 20 [01:30:23] Lover. Lover.

John Dehlin [01:30:25] Okay, what's your quick comment about the talk?

Guest 20 [01:30:28] So what I really wanted to say. Oh, here she is.

John Dehlin [01:30:31] Hello.

Guest 20 [01:30:35] Obviously there was tons of problems in it, but I am a big proponent on the church or any religion believing what they want to believe, saying what they want to say. My biggest issue is when you kind of echoing what Hallie was saying, when you use scare tactics to keep people in the church.

Guest 20 [01:30:56] I left the church when I was 18 and I fully believed that I was going to lose everything in this life and everything in the next. And that gives you no foundation and no roadmap to, to follow. And I found myself in very dangerous situations with no one to call.

Guest 20 [01:31:17] I didn't, I couldn't call my family. I eventually just had to pull myself out of it on my own, which I did, and I'm very grateful for. But I watched so many people, so many of my friends deal with suicide and drugs and alcohol. And when you think that you don't have anything to live for after you leave the church, you treat your life like you don't have anything to live for.

John Dehlin [01:31:45] Oh my God.

Guest 20 [01:31:46] And it breaks my heart. And one other quick thing. It's not only dangerous for those kids thinking about potentially leaving the church, it's also very dangerous for the parents in attendance to hear these things because it almost gives them permission to abandon these children in their greatest time of need. It is 100 justifying, pushing them out of the family because they're choosing to leave their family, they're choosing to leave these blessings. And so you find these kids just completely abandoned and the parents being justified by the religion that they're a part of to be able to do that.

John Dehlin [01:32:31] Oh my gosh, Ali, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy. If you tell these kids they're nothing without the church and they just can't stay in it even for health reasons, then you're basically, you risk condemning them to a life of sadness and misery because you've already programmed them to, to believe. None of us are going to argue with the idea that if you speak positively to a kid about their future, they'll probably feel better about their future. And if you talk about awfully about their future, they're going to feel trapped or sad or like their future is dark and work worthless. And then that point you made, Ali, about it giving parents a justification to in effect throw their kids to the curb. Ali, I can't thank you enough for sharing that on today's program. I'm so happy.

Guest 20 [01:33:14] Yep. I've just, I've seen it too, too many times. I've lost too many friends because they were completely lost with no one to lean on.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] Yeah. Well, Ali, it looks like you're doing okay. And so I'm really.

Guest 20 [01:33:29] We're doing good.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] Look at you too. What a happy sight. We'll keep thriving that's what Thrive's all about, is.

Guest 20 [01:33:36] Yes. I'm actually gonna write into your wife and see if I can get on with an interview with her.

John Dehlin [01:33:41] Where are you joining us from? Do you want to say?

Guest 20 [01:33:43] Oh, just Pleasant Grove.

Guest 7 [01:33:44] Okay.

Guest 20 [01:33:45] Not far.

John Dehlin [01:33:46] Utah county, baby.

Guest 7 [01:33:48] Yeah.

Guest 20 [01:33:48] Which is the hub of what I was saying. A hundred percent.

John Dehlin [01:33:53] It's pretty intense there, for sure.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:33:55] It is.

Guest 20 [01:33:55] It can be hard.

John Dehlin [01:33:56] All right, Holly, Allie, thank you so much for joining us.

Guest 20 [01:33:59] Thanks, John. Have a good day.

John Dehlin [01:34:00] All right. We're about to be. Not able to take any other callers, but we've gotten through, I think, most of the people that have been joining us for a long time. Andy B's been very patient. So Andy B, give us. Give us 30 seconds on Brad Wilcox or the church. Oh, your mic's not working. That's a bummer. Let me try and play with your mic because I'm not hearing you, and then maybe we'll bring you back. Let's go back to Faith. Faith, talk really quick and see if we can hear you now. Gosh dang it, Faith, I can't hear you. And I really wanted to include you for some reason. I don't know if you can take

Guest 2 [01:34:39] out so many people.

Guest 5 [01:34:40] There you go.

Guest 20 [01:34:41] So many of my friends deal with suicide and drugs and alcohol, and when you think that you don't have anything to live for after you leave the church.

John Dehlin [01:34:52] We're having. We're having a problem hearing you, Faith, but I'm really sorry we weren't able to bring you on. Andy, let's give you one more shot. Can we hear you, Andy?

Guest 2 [01:35:01] Fine.

Guest 17 [01:35:01] Now.

John Dehlin [01:35:01] Okay. There you go, Andy.

Guest 2 [01:35:03] Yeah, Sorry about that. Well, I. I spent a lot of time in the church as a youth leader.

John Dehlin [01:35:07] Yes.

Guest 2 [01:35:10] Young men's president for a while in my war. And these are the moments that, you know, a lot of church elite use to, you know, make an impressionable statement on youth's mind because they are basically reacting to a lot of things that happen around them. And they are like, well, we need to, you know, stop the hemorrhage.

Guest 16 [01:35:31] Right.

Guest 2 [01:35:31] We need to cut these people from leaving the church. And so they could to youth who are more susceptible to all of these messages. And that is very difficult because it leaves a very empty feeling from then on, like some other people have said in the show, making you feel like nothing is worth it but what you have in the church. So was that to be removed from your.

Guest 2 [01:35:56] From your life, then that will, you know, destroy you. And that happened to me. And I'm Sure. A lot of people that leave the church feel that same way to you. And a lot don't leave because of the fear of experiencing this.

Guest 2 [01:36:14] And so I think that some of the things that are, you know, about Wilcox's talk that are, you know, really hard to process is that here you come to, you know, tell people, you know, I know better than any of you, any of your parents, and I'm going to, you know, make a show out of this, you know, use flowery, funny language. I'll try to look like somebody who is your age and tell you and squeeze in there my belief that you can't leave the church and I'll lock you in and I'll help the church, you know, keep the numbers up.

Guest 2 [01:36:51] And I don't think that's helpful. It hurts people and it will. I mean, I think they're just reacting to a lot of people leaving anyway. I mean, yeah, they always speak in this, like, you know, faith terms of like, oh, save the, you know, save the youth and stop them from leaving. I mean, people are much more informed today than they have ever been. We have our phones in our hands all day and I don't think you can fool anyone anymore by just, you know, putting somebody in the pulpit and say, that's a great point.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] These tactics are just, they're going to keep failing. The church really needs to take a deep look at itself and regroup and all these changes, if they're not sincere, if there aren't sincere changes of heart, they're going to look really cosmetic and fake to the younger generations and frankly to middle aged and older generations as well. There just needs to be a real change of heart.

Guest 2 [01:37:45] I agree. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:37:47] And I'm so glad you joined us. Where are you calling us from? If you want to share in Virginia. Virginia?

Guest 2 [01:37:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] Is that Okie or Hokey? What is that? What is the.

Guest 2 [01:37:55] I knew I moved here recently.

John Dehlin [01:37:58] Thanks for joining us. You're the best.

Guest 2 [01:37:59] Have a good day.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] All right. I also want to give a shout out to my dear friend Lynn Moore. I'm going to be seeing the moors April 2. There's going to be a Thrive Houston or Thrive Texas. And I get to see my dear friends, the Moors.

John Dehlin [01:38:15] There's also going to be a Thrive Southern California, April 2nd. There's going to be, I think, a Thrive Florida April 2nd. And of course I just got a shout out again to thrive St. George this weekend to go to Thrive Beyond Religion to register for that. No one makes any money off of Thrive. It is all just to create, building, create community and to help people find friends and community. I also just want to say we have a new Discord Channel and Mormon Stories podcast. It's a way for you to find online community where you can chat and even talk to people any time of the day across the country.

John Dehlin [01:38:47] If you go right now to the description either on Facebook or on YouTube, you can join our Discord Channel and we would love you will find great community there if you're interested. All right. We're really, really short on time, Stephanie. You've been waiting patiently. I love your background. You've even got. Even got fake brick like we do on the Mormon Stories podcast. Yeah, yeah.

Guest 21 [01:39:09] I do a lot of online teaching, so had to put the fake brick comment.

John Dehlin [01:39:14] Yeah.

Guest 21 [01:39:15] So one thing that I thought about was, I wonder what it was like for Brad before he went to this fireside. I just imagine him sitting in, like, this meeting with all the top leaders, and he's hearing them talk about how stressed out they are worrying about the youth specifically. And then he's like, oh, I got this. I can just imagine him going there and just thinking, all right, why are the youth leaving? Let's talk about it. And he talked about it. And I was actually shocked at how candid he was in this meeting. Obviously he did not realize how big it was going to get.

Guest 21 [01:39:46] But he just uses those classic sign, classic methods of control. Like, for example, he knows that people watch Tick Tock. So he said, oh, yeah, that's just a group of wild, angry Xmos, you know, he know. He knows people are leaving to follow Christianity. And he's saying, oh, their marriages aren't even legitimate marriages. You know, they have. Joseph Smith taught us more about Jesus Christ, you know, and people are leaving because women want more, women want the priesthood. And he's like, women need to just kind of be quiet. And he like, mansplained the priesthood.

John Dehlin [01:40:19] It was kind of funny.

Guest 21 [01:40:20] And then he's like, oh, you have issues with blacks in the priesthood? Well, let's just shift the whole issue.

Guest 20 [01:40:27] What about whites?

Guest 21 [01:40:28] You know, he just, like, completely bypasses and he's trying to take all of those issues that he knows youth are actually leaving for. And he's trying to basically make people feel like those are not legitimate reasons to leave. And then finally he just hammers it in with the threat, like, you're going to lose everything if you leave. And so I really hope that those who are watching those firesides and who are paying attention can just see through it. And hopefully they can see the Control. That's. That's really being shown here.

Guest [01:40:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:59] Yeah. So many. So many redirections. He doesn't address substantive issues, but he just finds clever, rhetorical ways. And, you know, we all know now that he's given this talk a gazillion times over the past several years. It's a finely honed, a finely crafted rhetorical. I mean, it should be studied in rhetoric classes. The rhetoric that he uses to. I don't want to say like, he's intentionally trying to manipulate. I think he's insincere, sincere believer. But it is a master class in rhetoric and manipulation.

Guest 7 [01:41:32] Right?

Guest 21 [01:41:33] Yeah, that's what I noticed.

John Dehlin [01:41:35] Stephanie, you seem super cool. I love your setup. Thanks.

Guest 17 [01:41:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] Come back again.

Guest 9 [01:41:39] Okay.

Guest 15 [01:41:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:40] All right, Carol, you've been waiting patiently. Turn your camera 90 degrees and we can see your full setting. If you want. You don't have to. Yeah, I see you fine. Carol, what's your quick comment about?

Guest 7 [01:41:53] Oh, quickly. I thought there were two things worth talking about. Intent versus impact. I saw a lot of people last night, today saying we have good intention. And I think, as coming from an ally that wants to learn how to be a good ally, that everybody has some good, and we can all have good intentions, but what's the impact of our words? He has power, privilege, and a podium. So I think if you really wanted to apologize and the Mormon Church did, they would turn over the mic to all the populations that they damaged.

Guest 7 [01:42:26] The black population, women. He would listen with an open heart and an open mind. He would use all of his resources, his money, his YouTube channel, blast it everywhere. He would learn from them, do what they say, ask for their suggestions, and that would be the start to me of a true apology as well as the Mormon Church. And the other quick comment I wanted to say was white violence is violence, especially for those adults behind him, and especially being white and having that power over the youth. Their silence to me, is as violent as they were.

John Dehlin [01:43:03] Oh, my gosh, Carol, you just. One of my favorite comments of the whole day. White silence is violence. We have to. You know, anyone in a position of PR privilege needs to be vocal and. And speak out for those who can't speak out for themselves. And then I just lost your first point. Tell me in two words, your first point, because immediately remember, intention versus impact.

Guest 7 [01:43:28] He could have good intention.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] Yes.

Guest 2 [01:43:30] Okay.

Guest 3 [01:43:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:30] Restitution. Yeah.

Guest 8 [01:43:32] Like.

John Dehlin [01:43:32] Like, again, we made this point last night that. That we all know restitution is a part of repentance. What would restitution look like? Listening if he could just call a new state conference, a tri state conference in the Alpine area and invite some people of color, some women who are feminists, some ex Mormons who have been hurt by the church, and some Christians, frankly. And just say, everybody, I'm, I am going to perform restitution for my harm. Let's just listen to these people. Let, let, let, please tell us what we need to learn. Please tell us how we've hurt you. Tell us how we could do better. That is such a beautiful suggestion, Carol, and I'm so glad I you waited and I'm so glad we were able to get you in. You're lovely. I'd love to meet you. Where are you calling from if you're able to share?

Guest 7 [01:44:22] Salt Lake City, Utah.

John Dehlin [01:44:23] All right, we can meet you one of these days.

Guest 7 [01:44:26] Slc. I'd love to.

John Dehlin [01:44:28] Okay. Carol, it's so lovely to meet you. All right, thanks, Carol. You take care. All right. What a, what a bunch of lovely humans. All right, we're super short on time. Aaron, you've been waiting. Give us a quick unmute yourself and give us a quick 20 seconds reaction to Brad Wilcox talk.

Guest 6 [01:44:47] Well, John, I am a recently faith transitioned, post Mormon Christian who is the adoptive father of four beautiful black children and five daughters. So his talk kind of ran the gambit for me. And there's two points.

John Dehlin [01:45:06] Because it was anti Christian and because of the racial and anti feminine. Right.

Guest 6 [01:45:12] And, and so, you know, just hit on all, all points for me.

John Dehlin [01:45:15] I'm so sorry.

Guest 6 [01:45:17] The, the two points that I really want to make though are, you know, from a standpoint of a person of faith, the statement that I am merely playing church at this point and that I don't fully experience the presence of the divine.

Guest 6 [01:45:34] I needs a label and that label is religious bigotry and that needs to be given to it secondarily. As I very recently transitioned out of the Mormon Church, the decision of what to do as far as the faith of our, our minor children has been an issue. And I, I have begun to feel strongly that I did not want my kids to be burdened with the same sense of guilt and shame and worthlessness that was instilled on me by a lifetime of indoctrination and moment doctrine and culture. And I just didn't want that for my children.

Guest 6 [01:46:11] And hearing Brad Wilcox's talk has 100% reinforced that to me because of the rhetoric used, the fear mongering and gaslighting that was evident there. There's no way that my, my children need to be Raised and instilled with that sense of anxiety, guilt, and shame.

John Dehlin [01:46:28] Well, Aaron, it is so powerful to have not only a parent of. Of kids of color, but also a Christian speak out and share how the talk hurt them. And just, just thank you so much. It means a lot to just hear your voice and to hear how this impacted you. And let's just hope that. That Brad and the church can all do better. Thank you, John. Thanks for joining us. Aaron, you're the best Christian friend. You are a loyal Mormon Stories podcast contributor. I've seen your comments everywhere and. And you're muted, so I'm gonna mute you. What's that?

Guest 15 [01:47:05] I met you at Provo Thrive too.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] Yeah. And I called you Christian as if you're a male. One of the recently, and I apologize for that in the thread. Christian cherish or Christian friend? Give us a really quick comment because we really do need to go.

Guest 15 [01:47:17] Yeah. Just the things I didn't like about the talk was the emotional manipulation. I think Brad Wilcox is really similar to Holland where he uses his voice and it cracks and stuff and he's like getting all emotional about things and honestly, it got to. To me too. Like the part where you'll lose everything if you leave the church. And you know, I actually left the church for a time and then came back and was re baptized and had to jump through all those hoops and it was because I had such low self worth and I get emotional about it because the church teaches you that that is your only worth and it's terrible. And I. Anyway, I'm working there right now through therapy and everything, to know that my worth is more than just what religion has taught me. You know, I'm a good person despite religion, so.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] Yeah. Well, it's so nice to see you on the podcast. Thanks for your support. Thanks for your heartfelt words. I'm sorry for the difficult experiences, but we're so glad you joined us.

Guest 15 [01:48:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:48:21] All right, you take care. All right, Logan, give us like 10 seconds and then we really gotta run. Unmute yourself, Logan.

Guest 8 [01:48:35] There we go.

John Dehlin [01:48:36] Ten seconds, Logan. Yeah, I'm just.

Guest 8 [01:48:38] I'm really tired of people like Brad Wilcox acting like they're subject matter experts on what it's like to leave the church.

John Dehlin [01:48:46] Yeah.

Guest 8 [01:48:47] Telling everything it will be like. And I feel like it's really dangerous because I've been out for like four years and nobody in my family has talked to me about it. It's just kind of gotten swept under the rug.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] Yeah.

Guest 8 [01:49:00] And then when he says things like that, it kind of closes off the avenues. Like they'd rather just take his word for it that I'm not happy or I'm not enjoying my life.

Guest [01:49:09] Yeah.

Guest 8 [01:49:09] And instead of talking to me about

John Dehlin [01:49:11] it, it's doing harm. All right, Logan, I'm so sorry. I'm glad you spoke out. Check out Thrive if you need communities of support to help you. Thrive is there to try and help, but keep healing and growing. And I'm sorry for the hard times, but I'm glad to see you kicking. All right, thanks, Logan.

Guest [01:49:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] All right, Daria, 30. 30 seconds. Daria, hi.

Guest 17 [01:49:36] Yeah, I've actually made notes because I thought this might happen. Coming from England, I'm originally from Bulgaria.

John Dehlin [01:49:42] Okay, thanks for joining us.

Guest 17 [01:49:44] So, first of all, is it just me who thought that throughout his whole. Whole talk, he was almost sounding like he was just being ironic? I don't know. I just thought he didn't actually believe it. I don't know. Maybe it was just me, or maybe he just enjoyed it too much how he sounded. And anyway, I've actually walked out of talks similar to this back in Bulgaria.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] Oh, wow. For you.

Guest 3 [01:50:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:07] Originally.

Guest 17 [01:50:08] I'm from Bulgaria originally, and I live in England. I've not been in the church, like, 10 years now, but.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] Yeah, you had the courage to walk out of a talk I like.

Guest 17 [01:50:16] Oh, yeah. People didn't like it. People didn't understand. I don't know. I don't think people actually do that. Yeah, they just think you're just going to the loo or something. But, yeah, if there's.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Anyway, if there's any listener, viewer that walked out of that Alpine talk, you get an immediate invite on the Mormon Stories podcast. I want to know anyone in those three stakes if anyone walked out during that talk anyway. Daria, keep going.

Guest 17 [01:50:40] Okay. No, I'm. I. I would rather give somebody else a chance. I just wanted to say thank you. I really appreciated everything.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] I would love to hear your Bulgarian Mormon story someday.

Guest 17 [01:50:53] I think you'd like it. I think you'd like it.

John Dehlin [01:50:55] Maybe one day gmail.com will get you on the docket. We've never interviewed someone from Bulgaria before.

Guest 17 [01:51:02] Gonna be difficult. I don't know if I want to do it, but I would like to maybe anonymously. Okay, take care.

Guest 7 [01:51:09] Bye.

Guest 17 [01:51:10] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:51:11] All right, Tanner, you're going to be our last participant. Tanner, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Sorry we're rushed, but I was not gonna not have you contribute. So, Tanner, no A.B. you get the final word, brother.

Guest [01:51:25] Absolutely. Thank you so much. Yeah. I, and you can hear me. Okay. Right?

John Dehlin [01:51:28] Yeah, yeah, you sound great.

Guest [01:51:29] Okay. Awesome. Yeah. So really with, with Brad Wilcox's talk, I mean, it was problematic on so many levels. However, one of the biggest things is in the apology. You know, you see him apologizing for, you know, trying to explain the timeline of, for the revelation itself. And, you know, that in and of itself is just so problematic because, like, we have the church essays.

Guest [01:51:55] We were supposed to have set the record straight. You know, you'd expect it from the top down to have this like, trickle down effective where everyone now gets that it was never revelation. But when you have someone at the top who is, you know, addressing these very real concerns, but still has it so wrong based off of what the church says today, this is really disheartening. And you know, for a lot of black members, myself being one for 20 years, you know, I don't think that they've fully grasp just how detrimental and how harmful all this is, because when you hear that there's even a possibility that God would view black people a certain way versus white people, it totally changes that dynamic and the relationship that you have personally with God from an early age. And so, yeah, I just, I just wish they'd do better.

John Dehlin [01:52:48] Where. Are you able to tell us where you're calling from, Tanner?

Guest [01:52:51] So I'm originally from Missouri, but I'm living in Lehigh, Utah.

John Dehlin [01:52:54] Holy moly. Well, Tanner, you get an automatic invitation on the Mormon Stories podcast if you want to tell. Oh, you will. Okay, you email me at mormonstories gmail.com remind me who you are because I'll forget your name. Just because I can't remember all the names. Yeah, absolutely. But I would love to have you come on and tell your story because we just, we need your story and, and we as Mormons and ex Mormons need to hear your story. And I feel, I, I, I, I kind, I don't want to shame myself, but like, but like, you know, I had, I had someone DM me on Instagram and it's like, hey, John.

John Dehlin [01:53:31] Yeah, it's great that you and Kara are talking about this. It's great that you care about racism. Why have you not had a person of color on to talk about it? And it's, it's just because I, I don't have someone who lives close. Yeah, that, that can, can, you know, that can speak from that community.

John Dehlin [01:53:47] And so I'm, I'm embarrassed by that. But I'm also so grateful you called. I wish we could have got faith in earlier, but I'm so glad you called, Tanner. And, and right now you are automatically accepted to come on Mormon Stories and tell your story.

Matt [01:54:01] So.

Guest [01:54:01] Absolutely appreciate you, John. Really do.

John Dehlin [01:54:03] All right. So, so glad to know you're here and I look forward to meeting you in person.

Guest 10 [01:54:07] Absolutely.

Guest [01:54:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:54:09] All right, Tanner, thanks for joining us. And I should just add. Hey, hey, Jen, you can unmute yourself for just a second and, and this is a gen. Come on. Oh, there's. We're getting some feedback, so. So anyway, waved, everybody. Jen, it's, it's great to have you. Thanks for helping us today. Jen's our newest employee with the Open Stories foundation and Jen will have you on at some point to tell your story but, or to just help out or whatever. But thanks for your help today, Jen. Thanks to everyone who joined in. Wow. We had over a thousand people for most of this live stream.

Closing Reflections and Show Wrap-Up

John Dehlin [01:54:43] It's just an experiment. We thought it'd be fun to do a call in show. It's not our typical format. If you like this, tell us. If you didn't like this, tell us and you know, we'll do it again if you liked it. Also, if you want community, online community. If you don't have community, join our Discord channel. There's a link to it in the description. Discord is a way for you to either live chat or live speak or even like video chat other members of the community. We have a new Discord channel. We want it to be a place for you to find friends or to have a place to talk or to share or to meet people.

John Dehlin [01:55:21] So please check out Discord. Please join the channel if you're interested. Just remember St. George, Thrive, St. George this weekend. ThriveBeyondReligion.com if you want to join. Sam Young, Natasha Helford, Jesse Funk, myself, lots of other cool people will be there. But most importantly, there's karaoke and there's. It's a great way to meet people.

John Dehlin [01:55:40] And then of course, there's Thrive Houston in April 2, thrive Florida, April 2. Thrive Southern California April 2. And be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Love each other. No shade on Brad Wilcox. Brad, we know you want to do good. We know you're a good person. We know you mean well. So Brad Wilcox, we love you. We, we invite you, Brad Wilcox, to come on Mormon Stories podcast and, and tell your story.

John Dehlin [01:56:04] But most importantly, Brad, we know you're just a reflection of the church that you get paid by and the church that you represent. So, Brad, so Mormon Church, please try and listen to people better listen to people of color, listen to people who have left the church, listen to Christians, listen to women. And I know that you can make changes to improve the church and make it a healthier place. Thanks to everyone for your support. Please donate@mormonstoriesgmail.com if you want to see content like this continue. Please share us your feedback. Please subscribe on all the channels, give us reviews on all the channels, forward this info to all the people and we'll, we'll keep growing again.

John Dehlin [01:56:42] Congratulations that we. We surpassed 50,000 subscribers on our YouTube channel. I'm so thrilled about that. And let's. Hey, Cara. And let's just keep doing good. Come, come stick your. Uh, come say hi to our audience. There's Kara doing the moonwalk. And that's what Cara does best, is the moonwalk. Michael Jackson. All right, you guys take care. Thanks so much. And we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.