Introduction and Welcome to Haleigh Everts

Host [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 24, 2021, and today we have yet another super exciting, epic, interesting, fascinating, gripping Mormon Stories podcast episode. Today I am joined by Kara Burrell, Newman's ho on TikTok. Hey, Kara.

Guest [00:00:19] Hi, John.

Host [00:00:19] Glad you're with us.

Guest [00:00:20] Yeah, thanks for having me.

Host [00:00:21] Got a beanie on today. Yeah.

Guest [00:00:23] I am sending conflicting interests that it's cold up here and warm down here.

Host [00:00:27] All right. Yeah, glad you're with us.

Guest [00:00:30] Right.

Host [00:00:30] And today we are super excited to have with us Hallie Everett. Is that right? Everett's Ever, Hallie Everts. Hallie, hold up your book. Hallie is the author of the book

Guest [00:00:43] called why I Left the Mormon Church and Came Back and then. To be continued.

Host [00:00:49] Hallie is well known in many circles. YouTuber. What's the name of your YouTube channel? Halle?

Guest [00:00:55] It's just my name. Hallie Everts.

Host [00:00:57] Yeah, Hallie Everts. And just many people have known Hallie because she for many years has been youtubing about her life and about her Mormon life. She started a YouTube channel soon after getting married in the Mormon Temple. She's a convert and for many, many years she was sort of youtubing her awesome Mormon life. And recently she's kind of started to learn more about Mormon church history. And of course, every marriage goes through its ups and downs. And her YouTube channel has kind of changed a little bit where she started talking about some of the things she never learned as a convert to the church from the missionary discussions and then also stuff she's been discovering lately. So this story to me is important for several reasons. You know, I always talk about informed consent on Mormon Stories podcast and how people raised in the church and people who convert to the church don't always fully understand the full ramifications of what they're getting into when they join. So, you know, now that Hallie's experiencing some pretty significant awakenings, learning a lot of things and having kind of, yeah, I'll just say some disruptions in her life. You know, that all becomes really relevant in terms of having all the information when she made the choice to convert. So we're going to be talking about that. We're going to be talking about her conversion. We're going to talk about her life prior to joining the church and after. We're going to talk about what caused her to lose her faith or kind of going active the first time. Then she reactivates and goes full bore into Mormonism, writes her Book. This book has been sold at Deseret Book. And what caused her to start a YouTube channel, and then what caused her faith to kind of start to be questioned a bit and what that's led to now? And this is really an important story for all those reasons and because Hallie is a social media influencer, of course she has a following and a lot of people that have been interested. She's still getting emails from people saying, hey, I joined the church because of you, or, hey, I reactivated in the church because of you. And this is a really important theme as well, to just talk about how the Mormon church either uses and or benefits from social media influencers. But then what happens when those social media influencers have changes in their faith position and what's the ethical thing to do in those types of situations? So all that and much, much more on this epic interview. So, Hallie, tell us, what did I get right or wrong in the introduction?

Guest [00:03:24] Right. You nailed it.

Host [00:03:26] All right. How are you feeling? Are you. Are you.

Guest [00:03:28] I'm so excited. I just want to get it all out there, like the full picture. You know, in YouTube, you have sometimes my videos are like 30 minutes to an hour, but you still don't put it all out there. You know, you gotta have some tact. And now I'm excited to share it all.

Growing Up Outside the Church in New York

Host [00:03:42] All right, well, we're glad you're here. You drove up from. From Arizona.

Guest [00:03:45] I did, yeah. With kids in tow. Yep.

Host [00:03:48] Thanks for making the trip worth it. Okay, so where do we begin? Where does your Mormon. Your Mormon story begins before you were a Mormon?

Guest [00:03:55] Yeah, my Mormon story begins with me being, like, six, seven years old and my parents getting divorced. And I always, before they got divorced afterwards, just wanted to have a happy family. I never had that, like, cohesive, tight family. My parents are much older than everyone else my age parents. My parents had marriages with other people before they were married to each other. And so I have half siblings, so I never lived with any of my siblings because they're all 20 years older than me. And so I just wanted to have the happy family and be a mom. And I wasn't super religious. My mother was Catholic. She's from Ireland, so she was, like, raised Irish Catholic.

Host [00:04:41] She have an accent?

Guest [00:04:42] She has more of a New York accent than an Irish accent, to be honest. And so I went to, like, catechism. I got my first communion when I was, like, seven. But I honestly don't really remember much about it. Religion just, like, wasn't part of my life. It wasn't part of my dad's life. It was just like a kind of a cultural thing. So I didn't really know much other than like, you pray to God and let's see from there. When I was 10, missionaries knocked on the door when I was at my mother's house. I actually lived with my dad full time and I just went and stayed with my mother on the weekends. And so I was at her house and missionaries knocked on the door. And she had already known about the Mormon church and she knew some people who were and she knew who missionaries were and she just like welcomed them in open arms and she took the discussions. And my mother got baptized right away. She was 55 years old when she got baptized on her birthday and I was 10. And I supported her and I went

Host [00:05:39] to church with her when she was 45.

Guest [00:05:41] Yeah. Wow. I know. Crazy.

Host [00:05:43] Yeah.

Guest [00:05:44] So I went to church with her every weekend. I remember not fitting in because I just looked very different than all these other girls and they wore these like, nice dresses and I'm like, you know, I just didn't come from that culture. If you wear these Sunday best outfits

Host [00:06:03] and you're in upstate New York.

Guest [00:06:05] Yeah, okay. And all of my clothes were like, I don't know, not modest and not like them. So I remember sitting in primary being like, I feel like I'm towering over all these people. This is so dumb. These are all little children and I'm so grown up. I don't fit in here. But I wanted to. And so I started taking the discussions and the missionaries taught me these cool lessons and they asked if I wanted to get baptized. That's what missionaries do. They ask you, they invite you. And I, I said yes because my mom was baptized. Why wouldn't I want to get baptized? I don't know what the frick it meant. And so I remember where my mom, the missionaries were all in the kitchen. We call my dad, put it on speakerphone to ask him for permission and he was like, absolutely not. No. I'm only 10 years old. No way. And I was devastated. But I just like got over it, moved on with my life, kept going to church with her on the weekends. My kind of conversion, like actually wanting the church and believing in the church didn't happen until I was 12 when I went to girls camp in Seneca Lake where everything happened with the restoration of the church.

Host [00:07:20] What happened there? For those who aren't Mormon and don't know.

Guest [00:07:23] Oh, I mean, you're in Palmyra. This is where Joseph Smith had the first vision. This is where the Sacred Grove is where he went and prayed and saw God, God and Jesus Christ and angels and Satan tempted him. And this is sacred ground, this is historic. This is holy Mecca for Mormons. So it was really intense to be there. And we actually went and visited the Sacred Grove and Joseph Smith's home and we went and saw a pageant, if you guys know what that is. It's like this big production, the Church Hill Cumorah Pageant. They stopped it, but they did just a couple years ago. But it was reenacting the Book of Mormon. Very, very powerful. And part of girls camp. They have you every morning. Girls camp, by the way, if you don't know, is for like 12 to 18 year old girls to just go for like about a week, learn about the church and have fun with other

Host [00:08:17] women and to strengthen your testimony of the church. Right?

Guest [00:08:19] Yeah, they hold testimony meeting, they have these lessons and definitely to strengthen you. So one of the things that you do there every morning you have scripture study. And I wasn't even a member of the church, I didn't even have scriptures. So what the heck was I going to read? Especially as a 12 year old, like, am I going to read the Book of Mormon, which I can't even comprehend. So I read Joseph Smith's history because I was in this area anyway learning about him. And so I read it and you know, it was really easy to read and I just felt like this story is true, like this really happened, this is real. And then my mother got the work in the glory movies and those were like amazing. And so I watched those.

Host [00:09:03] And what do you love about those? Do you remember? It's probably a long time ago.

Guest [00:09:07] No, I still continue to watch them over the years.

Host [00:09:09] Okay.

Guest [00:09:11] You just love Joseph. He's the brother Joseph. He's amazing. He's such a.

Host [00:09:16] What's great about Joseph in those movies?

Guest [00:09:19] He's so kind and he's persecuted and all he's trying to do is what's right and follow God. And it's so sad to see how he's hurting and how people attack him for no reason. It's not funny. Okay, sorry.

Host [00:09:35] So I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but that's how you experience it.

Guest [00:09:39] Yeah, I just created so much love and empathy for Joseph Smith and his story.

Host [00:09:44] Yeah, there's that temple, that temple video of Joseph Smith and he's like, he's a feminist, he loves black people, he's a great husband. He helps out with the chores, he's playing with the Kids, Yeah, they show him wrestling.

Guest [00:09:58] What is that game he plays with the stick?

Host [00:10:01] Yeah, yeah. He's just. He's the Everyman.

Guest [00:10:03] Yes.

Host [00:10:04] He's the Renaissance man.

Guest [00:10:05] They want you to love him and just think the world of him and feel so bad for what he suffered, all this persecution. And so reading Joseph Smith history, watching these videos, I was just like, this is true. This happened. This is all for the cause of God and bringing back Jesus Christ's church. And so I believed in it, but I didn't want to get baptized yet. And I had best friends who were in the Mormon Church, and I would hang out with them all day, every day. Practically lived with them. When I was at my mother's house on the weekend, I was hanging out with them. I was involved in their Mormon family, their scripture study, their prayer, their fhe going to church, seeing their culture of being a Mormon family. They had six kids. I didn't have that. And I wanted that. And it felt so happy, right? Mormons are so happy. Mormon families are so happy. So I just kept witnessing, kind of observing from the sidelines, these Mormon families in my ward and their kids who knew all these scriptures, right? Scripture mastery. They had these things memorized, and they knew all these stories about the Bible and the Book of Mormon. And I didn't know any of this. And it was so impressive. I'm like, wow, these people really believe this and they're so happy. And I just kind of was a fake Mormon. Like a dry Mormon, right? That's what they say. I was acted like a Mormon, believed in the Mormon Church. I just wasn't baptized. And then when I was 15, it was right after my birthday, I had just turned 15, and this little girl got baptized, and she was being confirmed in sacrament meeting. And during her confirmation blessing, I was bawling my eyes out hysterically. I just heard all these blessings being promised to her, and I wanted those blessings. I wanted everything that she was being told she would have. I wanted to be clean and have all the goodness that the Mormon Church brings to these people's lives, her life as a young girl. And so sacrament meeting ended. And that family, who I was really close with, with six kids, one of them was preparing to go on his mission. He was about to be 19. He was getting ready to go on his mission. And he comes up to me right after sacrament meeting is like, hallie, don't you want to get baptized? And I was like, yeah, Steven, I do. He was like, what you do? And I immediately ran to my mother and told Her, I want to get baptized. They brought over the missionaries right away, said, like, okay, let's have an interview. Let's do it. And I honestly don't even remember the, like, missionary interview, like, to get baptized. I don't even remember them asking me, like, any questions. I think they just were like, okay, let's plan your baptism. Like, put your program together. What songs do you want? I don't even remember them actually interviewing me. Probably because I'd been going for so long that they just assumed I already believed in whatever. I don't know. So then the time came to ask my dad again. And I remember talking to him about it, and he said, no. And then I was driving in the car with him, and I brought it up again, like, dad, I really want to get baptized. And he was like, you're only 15. You don't know what this life will lead you. You want to be a Mormon. You want to wear that underwear. You want to do these things for the rest of your life. You know what that means? And I was like, yeah, I want it. And he was like, okay, I can't stop you. You gotta make your decisions. You gotta make your mistakes yourself. Go ahead. And it was a huge deal. I mean, the missionaries who had converted my mother five years prior flew out for my baptism. Everyone from all over camera, it was this huge thing. Everyone wanted to prepare food and celebrate my decision to get baptized. And I remember before I decided to get baptized, and I had kind of thought about it, I was like. Because, you know, from the time I was 12 to 15, I believed in the church, but I didn't want to get baptized yet. And I would just tell myself, I can do it later. I can do it when I'm, like, 60, like my mom. Like, I'll live my life, I'll drink whatever, you know, I won't follow all the Mormon rules. I won't live a Mormon life. And then when I'm ready, when I'm old, I'll get baptized, and it'll wipe all my sins away. That was my idea of what baptism was. Wipes your sins away. And I can do it when I'm old and I'm ready. But I couldn't deny that I felt like it was right and the church is true, and I wanted to do it. So got baptized, and going in the water and coming up was, like, the most powerful experience. Like, I felt like I shed a layer. Like, I just felt so clean and new, and I was so happy. And it's just, again, confirmed to me that the church is so true. And this is what baptism does. It cleanses you from your past. What kind of past that I have at 15? None. But I was excited. And then I went back to school. I remember going back, I'm a freshman in high school, and. And feeling like I want to shout it from the rooftops that I'm a Mormon. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't swear. I don't do this. I'm a Mormon. I'm going to tell everyone about it and tell them all that these things are bad. I remember sitting at the lunch table with all my non Mormon friends, telling them, standing up for the truth of why these things are bad and why they shouldn't do these things. And I just believed in it wholeheartedly. And I started dating a boy who's not a member of the church.

Baptism and Early Conversion Experience

Host [00:15:38] Wait, how did the kids respond to that? Oh, upstate New York kids.

Guest [00:15:44] Yeah. There weren't a lot of Mormons in my high school. I don't think they even cared. I think they just ignored me, to be honest.

Host [00:15:52] Okay.

Guest [00:15:55] Like, they didn't really do any of that stuff. So it wasn't like I was telling them, you're all sinners, you need to stop drinking. They were just like, oh, okay, yeah, whatever.

Host [00:16:04] But you had the zeal.

Guest [00:16:06] Yes.

Host [00:16:06] You were a golden convert, as we call them, apparently.

Guest [00:16:10] Yeah. So then I started dating a non Mormon boy, and he was, like, really kind and respectful. And in fact, I attribute a lot of my, like, cultural conversion to him because I had friends who would listen to rap music and wear really, really short skirts and swear. And my boyfriend was like, no, don't listen to that music. No, don't swear like that. And I feel like he helped me to act like a good Mormon. And I was just felt like this was all meant to be. Like he was meant to be in my life to help me. And I'm just going to be the best Mormon I can be. And then, you know, 15, 16 years old, hormones are raging, broke the law of chastity. And then I didn't feel bad about it. Literally didn't care at all. And When I was 17, my bishop came up to me after a sacrament meeting and asked if I could come in for an interview. Like, it was my birthday. He wanted to do, like yearly interviews. And I was like, oh, great. So I went in there, I sat down like, all right, Bishop, listen, I'm having sex. I don't feel bad about it. And he was like, okay, well, do you have Your patriarchal blessing. I was like, no, I don't really know what that is. He's like, have you been to the temple? Have you done baptisms for the dead since you've been baptized? Like, no, I've never been in the temple. And I remember when people would go on temple trips, and I was like, can't do that. I'm not worthy to go there. And I was fine. I didn't care because the temple they would go to was, like, Boston, and it's like a big bus trip they would take to go down there. And I was like, no, thanks, I'll pass. That's not what I want to do on my weekend. So I was like, no, I don't have my patriarchal blessing. No, haven't done baptisms at the temple. And he was like, why don't we set that goal for you? Let's work on that. And I was like, okay, I'll stop doing this. I'll be good so I can go to the temple and see what it's like and get my prayer charcoal blessing. And so by March, I went to the temple to do baptisms for the dead. And I brought family names, and it was insanely spiritual. And coming from someone who had just been baptized two years prior and doing it again, the warm water coming up and feeling so cleansed, I was like, this is the house of the Lord. This is real. I felt so good about baptizing my family members. And, like, they were so happy. Like, my ancestors were so happy that I was doing this for them. And then I got my patriarchal blessing, and it is four pages long. And even the patriarch's wife, who, you know, types up the transcription, was like, I've never seen a blessing like this. And makes you feel what so special. Like, the Lord has chosen me. I've got a big purpose here, and he's got a plan for me, and I've got to fulfill it. And I've got to do everything I can to be worthy of these blessings, to have this life that the patriarchal blessing is promising me that I can have. But it's talking about a husband who honors his priesthood, and, you know, I'll get married in the temple. I'm like, that's not my boyfriend. And at this point, I've been with my boyfriend for over two years, and that was really confusing, but I just kind of put it on a back burner. I tried to read my boyfriend the Book of Mormon, and he would make fun of it and go, I Nephi, I'm like, it's Nephi, but thanks. And he just like joked around about it and it was really insulting. And I remember trying to bring him to church a couple times and I would just pray like, please let this be a really good sacrament meeting. Please let the talks be really, really good so I can help the babies

Host [00:20:13] not cry too loud.

Guest [00:20:14] Yeah, please let the talks be great. And I remember one time he went to church with me and this guy was giving a talk and I swear for 10 minutes he talked about hockey. I'm like, yeah, stupid.

Host [00:20:27] I remember that. Want my kid wanting my friends to join the church in high school and being so angry if someone gave an awkward talk or.

Guest [00:20:36] Yeah.

BYU, Young Romance, and Early Mormon Life

Host [00:20:36] And it's like, kids cried too loud.

Guest [00:20:37] Come on, God, why can't you make the talk good? Don't you want him to feel the spirit? So frustrating. So I just tried to work on him. And I remember actually one night he and I would go hang out in my basement. We had like a furnished basement. And feeling so strongly that, like, I shouldn't be with him because I need to be with a Mormon boy and I need to follow what like my patriarchal blessing is telling me. And I was like kind of trying to break up with him. And I was like, wait, just give me a minute. And right then and there I got on my knees and prayed. And I was like, please tell me what I'm supposed to do. Please tell me if I'm supposed to be with him or not. And I felt like I was supposed to be with him. The Holy Ghost testifies to you in your heart and in your mind. And what I felt was that I was supposed to be with him. So I was like, okay, nevermind, forget it. I love you, I'm gonna stay with you. And then when I was, yeah, still actually 17, it was that same year I went to girls camp again and had a crazy spiritual experience with an older girl. I think she was like 19, and she had been at BYU and she was like, halle, you need to be at byu. She like slipped a note in my bag at girls camp and wrote me this letter about like all my potential and how I would thrive at byu. And I just really. Please look into it. Please check it out. Because my high school boyfriend and I were big band geeks. I played the flute. And there is a really, really good music school in upstate New York. And so our plan, you know, I'm 17, I'm thinking about college. Our plan was to go to this music school in New York together. And now this person is telling Me to think about byu, and that's very far away. And I just was so confused. And I came home from girls camp and once again called my boyfriend. And I remember saying. Crying, saying, I love you, but I love God more. I have to do what God wants me to do. I have to follow him and listen to him. And then again, I chickened out and was like, forget it. I love you. I don't want to hurt you. Because he was crying, he was so upset. And I'm like, forget about it. And then I went to BYU to visit the summer before my senior year of high school. And I flew out to Utah. I'm drive. I'm over these mountains. I'm driving through Salt Lake, past the temple. I'm like, oh, my gosh, you can feel something here. Like, it's so magnetic. Oh, my gosh, this is special. And you walk on BYU campus and it's beautiful. Flowers everywhere. People are so happy. Like, it's so clean. It just felt like, whoa, there's something here. And then it was August. Like, you know, it's summer term. It's not fall yet. Campus isn't packed. And I ran into a guy who served his mission in my ward. And he ran up to me, and I was like, oh, my gosh. It just felt like a sign. It felt comforting, like someone who knew me all the way from New York out here. It just felt really right. And I went and met with the, like, flute professor to see about studying music there and all about their music program. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I need to be here. So I came home all gung ho about byu, Told my boyfriend. He was like, I support you. But I knew BYU was, like, super hard school to get into. And I had good grades, but I hadn't really tried super hard. I was just smart and got good grades. And so I was like, all right, I gotta write a bomb application essay. I have to take, like, five AP classes. I've gotta get all A's. I gotta do extracurricular activities. I've gotta serve, right? Because BYU wants to see all these extracurriculars and service and blah, blah, blah. So I do it all, like, so gung ho everything I can to get into BYU. Right after my 18th birthday, my birthday's at the beginning of January. My mother flew out, out with me to Salt Lake to go see BYU for herself. And then we drove all the way up to Idaho to go to Rexburg and see BYUI in case I didn't get into Provo, I had to see what Idaho is like. And I met with the flute professor there as well. And I was just all about it. Like, I'm going to either be in Provo or Idaho, and I'm going to study music and I'm going to be out with the Mormons. And I remember getting the email that I got into Provo and I couldn't even believe it. And I was so freaking excited and scared out of my mind because I'm going to leave everything. My family, my boyfriend, my friends. I don't know anyone in Utah. I don't know what it's like to be away from home. I was terrified. But it was worth it. I knew over and over again, like, this is where I'm supposed to be. So I somehow did. I don't know how I got on that airplane and left. And my parents were so sad and scared, but they came out with me and supported me. I think they were excited because it was a good school, you know, like, moral. They weren't worried about me going to, like, ASU and partying, so they felt a little bit of comfort in that. That, like, I'd be taken care of.

Host [00:26:17] And what about your boyfriend? You kind of broke up with him, right?

Guest [00:26:23] I didn't yet.

Host [00:26:24] Oh, you stayed with him?

Guest [00:26:25] But, I mean, I left. Like, how devastating for him that I chose going to a Mormon school over being with him. Because we had this plan.

Host [00:26:34] Do you feel like you loved him so much? Yeah. I was obsessed with him after being together.

Guest [00:26:40] We had been together since we started dating when I was 13.

Host [00:26:44] Oh, my goodness.

Guest [00:26:44] And then we were, like, steady from the time I was 15. So at this point had been three plus years of being with him. He was my world. He lived in my neighborhood. I spent all my time with him.

Host [00:26:54] Good guy.

Guest [00:26:55] Great guy. So good. Nerdy. We're band geeks. Like, good kid. Super, super smart. He was like, three grades ahead in math. Just such a good guy. I was seriously obsessed with him, but yet I was willing to go to BYU and leave him. And he just supported me. He was sweet and kind and said, I can't tell you not to go. Like, you got to do what. What you need to do. And when I got there and my parents left, like, dropped me off and left. I'm like, frick, I'm alone here. And my boyfriend, school hadn't started in New York yet. And so he's like, having fun with his friends, enjoying the rest of his summer. And, like, I'm starting college and I'm alone and I have no One. And my roommate was this girl from California who is Mexican. And I had like nothing in common with her because she's just speaking Spanish to her family the whole time. And I'm just like, alone. I'm not like anyone here. They all come from Mormon families. They all come from like California, Washington, Idaho, Arizona or Utah. And I just didn't fit in with any of them. I'm from the East Coast. I'm loud, I'm obnoxious, I'm opinionated, very blunt. And they're all sweet, kind Mormons and they don't say anything mean and no confrontation. And they all grew up in, you know, big Mormon families. And they're all super moral and right. And I'm like, I had sex a lot with one guy. But, like, I felt like I was tainted. Like, if people only knew my background. So it was weird. It was very uncomfortable and I just felt so alone. And then my first day of school, horrible. I made my schedule myself, not knowing, like, what classes I was supposed to or not supposed to take. And so I'm going to all these like 300 level classes. Like, I signed up for Pearl of great price for my religion class. Why did I do that? You're supposed to take, like, freshman Book of Mormon. And I just cried and was like, why am I here? Why am I doing this? And then, like, the next day, I think it was the second day of school, I was like, I gotta get this straightened out. So I went and met with a guidance counselor person who would help me make a new schedule. And he put me in really good elective classes, marriage and family classes. And he put me in this sociology class. And so I'm so excited. Finally got a good schedule. I go into this sociology class. I sit in the very front row. I want to be as close to my professors. I want to take it all in, be a good student, eat it all up. I really like to make comments and stuff.

Host [00:29:31] So what year is this, by the way?

Guest [00:29:33] You start 2011.

Host [00:29:34] Okay.

Guest [00:29:35] And this boy sitting next to me in the sociology class, and I walk out and he's like walking with me. And then we get to this point where I'm like, I gotta turn left to go to Helaman Halls. And he's gonna turn right to go to the parking lot. And he was like, do you want to go get a smoothie with me or no? He said, you want to go get ice cream? And I was like, I'm on a diet, I can't have ice cream. He was like, do you Want to go get a smoothie? And I was like, I have a boyfriend. He was like, that's okay. Like, we can just hang out. And, man, he did all the Mormon things, all the Provo, byu, RM stuff. He took me bowling. He took me to get a smoothie. He took me to the temple. We literally sat on the grass outside of the Provo Temple, just talking. And I, like, bore my heart to him, all about my conversion and believing in the church, even about my boyfriend, about my family. And he told me all about his mission. He had served in Chile, and he was pretty new. I think he'd only been back, like, a year, if that. And he was just, like, bearing his testimony to me, telling me about his mission experience, about the Book of Mormon. And I'm just like, holy crap, this is what I could have. Like, that's what I want. This is what my patriarchal blessing promised me. Shoot, what am I gonna do? And he knew I had a boyfriend, so I just kept hanging out with him. And he wanted to kiss me, and I was like, no, I can't. And I had this, like, promise ring on my finger. And he was like, that doesn't mean anything. Even if you're engaged, it doesn't mean anything. You're still on the table, still an option. And I was like, what?

Host [00:31:12] No, I'm taken.

Guest [00:31:14] I just wanted to stay with my boyfriend. But, like, he wasn't even talking to me. I'm, like, at byu, having the time of my life now, hanging out with people, finally making friends. And my high school boyfriend, like, wasn't paying attention to me. And then this guy, this RM took me to meet his family in Farmington. We went to Thanksgiving Point. We had this amazing date. He was like, do you want to go meet my parents? And I was like, okay. Which I guess is a big deal. I don't know. You hear of, like, oh, come home, home. Meet the family. But, like, his family's here. It's not like, I'm. It was so weird to have his family be local because I'm like, is this a big deal? Is it not? Is this normal to just, like, take someone to meet your parents? I don't know. If you were to meet my parents, that would be a really big deal, because they're really far away. So I was like, I don't know what this means. We haven't even kissed yet. We're not even together. I've got a boyfriend still. So I go and meet his Mormon family and their beautiful house in Farmington, and I'm like, this is it. This is a life. This is what I'm supposed to have. Marry an rm, live in Utah, like live the dream, have a Mormon family, have all the babies. I gotta give this a chance. So literally leaving that night, driving back down from Farmington, I called my high school boyfriend and I broke up with him. And he's screaming, crying, swearing, and I'm like, cold hearted. I'm like, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. Like no emotion. Because I couldn't or else I wouldn't go through with it. So I had to like compartmentalize a little bit. And then I like went all in gung ho with this. Rm.

Host [00:32:57] A couple questions, okay. Or comments. So had you ever tried to convert your boyfriend during the time you guys recording? And had he ever tried to deconvert you from Mormonism? Either one.

Guest [00:33:08] So just in the couple times I like tried to talk to him about the Book of Mormon and tried to bring him to church, it was only a couple instances and he wasn't interested at all. He went to a Methodist church and he was like, no, I like my church. I don't have rules. I don't tell you what to do. My church is nice. Like, okay, well my rules keep you safe and help you to be a good person. So no, he didn't try to like deconvert me or anything. We just kind of didn't talk about it. We just were so in love and obsessed with each other and all obsessed with our music. And I wasn't gonna push it on him because he clearly wasn't interested. And so.

Influence, Control, and the Mormon System

Host [00:33:46] Okay, the only other thing, you know, I've been, I've been doing a series on Mormon stories, a five part series on influence and how organizations influence people. And I just want to note there's some markers of influence that I, that I see in your story so far. So you're, you know, you're, you're, you and your family are vulnerable because there's a divorce. Was your mom a single woman at the time?

Guest [00:34:09] She never remarried after my dad.

Host [00:34:10] So she, so she's a single woman looking. Probably looking for stability. So the church. Go ahead.

Guest [00:34:17] Oh yeah. I mean, if you want to talk about my mother and why she joined the church, it's all about the community.

Host [00:34:22] Yeah.

Guest [00:34:22] The people. She's a single woman, she's 55 years old. She's got very elderly parents who are on their deathbed basically. And these people come in to give her blessings, to help her with her parents, to help her with her yard. Yeah, I mean, she had this experience where she like fell off a ladder and shattered her pelvis. And they were there for her, they took care of her. It was all the church, you know, her home, Teachers release society, presidency, compassionate service. She felt community and purpose there and love and that's what it was about for her.

Host [00:34:57] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:34:58] So of course the church seemed like angels, like miracles.

Host [00:35:03] And then once you're in it, even as a non member, but as a child and as a young teenage girl, you're making the friends, you're seeing other families, you're influenced by seeing in other Mormon families how you could have the family that you, you know, as an adult, that you never had as a kid. Right. You're having these emotional experiences. And by the way, just for my listeners, I'm not trying to paint this as nefarious. I, I actually am split because I'm going to get to the point where I say it. I'm guessing the church was a good influence on you and your family and your mom early on. So anyway, to just talk about the influence though, you're seeing these other kind of quote perfect Mormon families. It reminds me of the south park episode, you know, where the Mormon family is squeaky clean and happy and positive and fun and nice and doing family home evening and singing songs. Who doesn't want that? Right?

Guest [00:35:54] Yeah. They don't even watch TV on Sunday. They just play games together and like they're so close knit, they're so happy. So righteous.

Host [00:36:00] Yeah. And then as you're starting to like make your own decisions with your boyfriend, your bishop, like a ding, you know, a little ding goes off and it's like, well, let's get her to the temple. Let's, let's get her worthy in the temple. Let's let her have some type of, what he would think is spiritual and what I would say is an emotional experience in the temple. And then the power of the patriarchal blessing.

Guest [00:36:20] Oh yeah, I'm locked in.

Host [00:36:21] Which is a, which is a matter. It's, it's a, it's a, I'm not saying intentionally in his part, that's what it is. But it becomes a tool of influence. You tell us how.

Guest [00:36:29] Yeah, because you have these spiritual experiences with the temple with your patriarchal blessing, which just testified to you even more. This is true, this is right. This is where I'm supposed to be in this. There is safety and peace. And you can't even go back on it now because now that I've been to the temple and I have a temple recommend, if I Mess up again. I can't go to the temple anymore. And look at what I'm missing out on. So you're locked in to. I have to follow these rules. I have to believe this, I have to keep doing this or else I don't get the temple. Or else I don't get the blessings that my patriarchal blessing is promising me. Or else people will know and I'll be a disappointment because oh, now Hallie's not going to the temple. What happened? Like, yeah, you're in even deeper and

Host [00:37:09] they're, they're really, they're self fulfilling prophecies. If you, you know, there's never been a. I don't know that in the history of Mormonism there's ever been a patriarchal blessing that says you'll leave the church, you'll marry a non member, you'll never have kids, you'll become a scientist and win the Nobel Prize because science is important. Even though you're a woman and you'll. No, it's always, I mean it's pretty much almost always what the church wants you to do. You're going to marry a Mormon, you're going to have kids, you're going to go, you know, marrying the temple, you'll serve in your callings, you'll be a great mom. And number one, that, that sets out a path for you. That basically sounds like a prediction, but what it actually is is it's telling you how you should be.

Guest [00:37:53] Oh, my patriarchal blessing said that I would be a leader among women or in the world. That was a huge weight on me. Like I'm supposed to lead people in the church. I'm gonna be the general young women's president. I literally said that from the time I was 17. That's what I want to do. I want to be the general young women's president and help all these teenage girls. I gotta be strong for them. Especially after dating a non Mormon and after having sex as a teenager. Like I know what it's like to make mistakes. I gotta help these girls to be strong.

Host [00:38:22] You're actually taking advantage of the atonement. Yeah. You know, understand the atonement better than people that never totally had premarital sex.

Guest [00:38:29] Exactly. I need to help these people and strengthen them so that they don't go down the same path I did.

Host [00:38:35] And, and what's, what's always ambivalent for me and I'm wondering, well, I don't want to give away the ending, but I'm just going to tell you what's Ambivalent for me is I'm seeing a single mom and I'm seeing a little girl and I'm seeing this organization that just steps up to show love and support and help not in with insidious motives, but with pure desires to help you guys be the best people you can be. And then I'm also seeing how enticing that is.

Guest [00:39:02] Super enticing.

Host [00:39:03] And then you go to byu, you're separated from your family, which is another way to influence you because all of a sudden your family's a billion miles away.

Guest [00:39:11] Especially my non member family.

Host [00:39:13] And your non member boyfriend.

Guest [00:39:14] Yeah, right. Everyone who was keeping me even slightly away from the church at all.

Host [00:39:20] Right.

Guest [00:39:20] Because I was kind of living like a dual life when I was with my dad. Cause I'm. I don't go to church when I'm with him. And my boyfriend's not Mormon. My dad and my stepmom aren't Mormon. None of my siblings are Mormon. So I was like half Mormon when I was with them. You know, I was a little bit like a toe out of the Mormon Church and. Cause they would go out to eat on Sundays and I would go with them even though I knew I shouldn't, stuff like that. So yeah, their influence once I left and went to Utah was gone. Now I'm just completely wrapped up in the influence of my professors, my bishop,

Host [00:39:50] my Mormon replacement parents. Almost. Right. Literally spent family.

Guest [00:39:55] Yeah.

Host [00:39:56] And then you add to that you're this boy return missionary. Okay. You've been primed to think. That's the, that's the thing. Did your, did your patriarchal say you'd marry.

Guest [00:40:04] Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Let me talk about. I remember sitting in young women's. Oh, I can't believe I forgot to say this. So I would be. I'm dating my high school boyfriend. I'm in love with him. We've been together for years. And I'm sitting there in young women's and all they're talking about is get married in the temple, marry an rm. I remember this really young cute girl. She was, I don't know, maybe 25 or something at the time. And she had this big poster with her temple wedding picture and a list she made when she was a teenager about the things she wanted in a husband. And it was just like drilled into you, like, keep the law of chastity, Marry an rm. Get married in the temple. And she had us all make a list of what we wanted and our husbands. So I made that list. I have pictures of it being in my mirror in my bedroom. And even though I was dating someone who wasn't Mormon, I wanted these things. And I just had hope. I just had faith that, like, someday he would come around. Maybe one day he would convert and we'd get sealed in the temple later and it would all work out. And I had young women's leaders who, like, when they would, oh my gosh, there's so many things I forgot to say. I had young women's leaders who would drop me off after mutual and would be like, hallie, you need to break up with your boyfriend. Don't you want to marry an rm? Don't you want to marry a Mormon boy? Don't you want to get married in the temple? And I was like, so uncomfortable. I'm like, why are you telling me to break up with my boyfriend? Like, so awkward. I love him. You don't even know him. And another one, I remember her, like, literally whispering to me one day, like, get out of here. Get to Utah, go. Like, what do I need to run away from? What's so bad about being here? What's so bad about my life and my boyfriend? Like, it was just all that push of like, rm keep the audacity. Get married in the temple over and over and over again.

Host [00:41:53] And, and, and I'm torn. And we'll talk about this at the end. But like, number one, I think all the motives are pure when people do that. Yeah.

Guest [00:42:00] Because it's to protect you.

Host [00:42:01] Yeah.

Guest [00:42:01] It's to help you so that you can find eternal happiness, not temporary joy. This is eternal.

Host [00:42:07] So it's not some insidious, you know, it's just people thinking they're being good.

Guest [00:42:11] Having this is how you have eternal happiness and safety if you're away from it. If you marry a non Mormon, then what about your kids? They're not going to be sealed to you. And what happens if you die and you don't have your family forever and.

Host [00:42:25] Yeah, and there's probably some level, like, giving you a patriarchal blessing, telling you you're going to be great. I remember I got my patriarchal blessing. I thought I was going to be king of the world. I thought I'd be resurrected in the morning of the first resurrection to become a God someday. Like, who? How is that not. It can be toxic depending on your personality, but it can get you excited and make you feel special and make you feel like you're going to conquer the world and God's side. And like, there's, there's, it's so enticing and it can even be actually good for you. Yeah, maybe it was. Do you feel like it was?

Guest [00:43:03] Yeah. I mean, at the time, like when I hear people tell their stories now about like church leaders, like young women's leaders and modesty or meeting with their bishops and stuff, I'm like, I never had any experience like that. Like, I didn't feel like anyone was mean or hurtful. When I look back now, I'm like, oh, yeah, that sucked. I had to go out and buy all new clothes to be able to go to girls camp and to go to EFY and to go to youth conference and mutual. I had to literally have a different wardrobe. I would wear short shorts to school, but I had to change into my long shorts when I went to church stuff and that sucked. I just spend money to do that and live kind of this dual life and. But I didn't think anything of it at the time. I didn't think it was wrong. I wasn't offended anytime a leader was telling me that, I was just like, never. Like, I didn't make it mean something bad about them or about me. I just shrugged it off and thought it was a good thing. Like, they're trying to help me. This is what I need to do. This is what's right. Like, this is what the church tells me to do. I've got to do it. Yeah, it's worth it.

Host [00:44:04] Yeah.

Guest [00:44:05] Especially when you're a teenager and you're like for me, lacking direction. And it's a beautiful thing sometimes to have a patriarchal blessing and you feel like, yeah, you can pray and you can get like whispers of the spirit of who you are and where you're supposed to be. But it's not until God is actually like, these are the words from God. Did you feel that way when you read your Patreon blessing? Like, this is literally God talking to me of what I'm going to be doing. And like John was saying, it's like a kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. And maybe you would have done all these great things in the world without it, but then when you do start doing those things, you're like, that was God. That was definitely the church being true. And even though you probably have all of these gifts and talents and then you just use them to further the Lord's work and he gets the credit maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very, I, it's very influential. And I didn't realize that kids at like 12 got their patriarchal blessings. Yeah, I had no clue. That's crazy to me to get that kind of information.

Host [00:45:03] Yeah.

Guest [00:45:04] Like, I don't even feel like I was ready for it at 17 because it was like, whoa, this is telling me a lot of stuff for the rest of my life about when I'm an adult and how do I even comprehend that?

Host [00:45:14] And it's, I mean, if you really break it down, it's. It's a little bit like fortune telling. Right. It's kind of, there's, it's got a mystical root in like tarot cards or fortune telling, that kind of vibe. Because really, is God really telling the patriarch or is he telling almost every. You know, there have been people that have compared their patriarchal blessings from the same patriarch with each other. And you know, number one, the patriarch's going to be telling people what the church wants him to be telling people. But second of all, a patriarchal blessing gives very, very similar blessings to everyone he blesses in addition to whatever he adds in because of the interview that he has with you before. But they literally tell people, don't compare your patriarchal blessings with other people. And part of that is because they don't want you to see, number one, that if it's the same patriarch, they can almost be identical. But then secondly, if something doesn't come true, they don't want people saying, oh, wait a minute, that prom. That promise didn't come true. Or I got that promise too, but we're both supposed to be prophets that die in the street of Jerusalem. Like, that doesn't make sense.

Guest [00:46:13] You know, if you would have told me that a year ago, I would have been like, hell no. There's no way. My patriarchal blessing is so inspired, so amazing, so unique. I've talked to my friends about their blessings not from the same patriarch, but like my. I was really good friends with my patriarch's grandchildren. Their blessing was one page. You think he would give his own grandchildren was special. Yeah. Even his wife said that. It promised me all sorts of stuff. It said unheard of things, things that I don't think he would have just made up. How could he know those things? Or why would he say those things? Like, it had to be from God. It was special. It influenced everything I did in my life. Yeah, everything. I literally clung to. That that's what's so hard is like teasing out the insidiousness like John was saying of, like, I can't say whether it's good or bad because I don't know. Like, I don't know for me, what road would I have Taken. If I didn't get that. Like, do you feel like if you didn't get the patriarchal blessing, you wouldn't have gone on to do the things that you've done? And. Or would you have still made the same choices? Or is it.

Host [00:47:16] Don't answer that.

Guest [00:47:16] Yeah, I know. I mean, I can tell you that if I didn't get my patriarchal blessing, I don't think I would have gone to byu. I don't think I, I think I would have stayed in New York with my boyfriend. I would have gone to music school, maybe would have married him, maybe not. But I definitely would not have gone down the Mormon route as gung ho as I did, because something. It's more concrete is like what I felt like, like, like I was saying, like, it feels like this is God's words and this is. There's no teasing out the spirit. Or is it my own brain? It feels like this is God talking to me. If it's concrete, I'm going to follow it. And that kind of sounds like you had to go to byu, you had to marry in the temple. The options were very limited once you got your patriarchal blessing. Yeah, because if I didn't follow it, then what does that mean? Right. I'm denying what God is wanting to give me. His arms are outstretched, trying to bless me with these things and give me all these things that he's promising me. And if I turn my back on him and I don't do what I need to do to deserve that, it's horrible.

Host [00:48:14] Yeah. Yeah. And, and BYU is that. For me, BYU was like going to Oz. I was like Dorothy going to Oz when I left Texas. Grew up in Texas with a bunch of non Mormons all around me and feeling different. I go to byu, it's like Dorothy going to Oz. It's like, oh, you know, meeting the wizard and. But BYU is an enormous expense to the Mormon Church and it's worth every penny because you go there, you just. It, it, it's a very compelling force to, to get you on the train. And again, I'm just going to say one last time, this is not to make it all sound insidious. I believe a lot of people benefit from this whole package.

Marriage Expectations and Purity Culture at BYU

Guest [00:48:58] Yeah, me too.

Host [00:48:59] And, and there's a lot of good there. And I do think it's important to note the ways that people get influenced into making very significant life choices, where if everything goes perfect, amazing, then you just ride the train to become Relief Society general president and your husband becomes a general authority. And Your kids are all Nobel laureates. And that's great if that's how it works out. But then what if it blows up midstream because of other forces? And that's the dilemma that I really wanted to explore with you today that we'll get to later, is it's great if it's all true and if it leads to really healthy, positive things. But if it turns out to not be true, and if it turns to blow up in your face, then it's important to understand how all those milestones of influence shaped your decisions. Right.

Guest [00:49:53] I can tell you right now, BYU is not a good experience for me.

Host [00:49:56] Well, let's keep going. So, so, okay. But, but, but even seeing those bountiful homes, like, oh, my gosh, what a setup. This RM takes you to his upper middle class bountiful homes. You see the big, huge, large Farmington. What? Farmington.

Guest [00:50:11] Farmington.

Host [00:50:11] Farmington. Farmington.

Guest [00:50:12] Yeah.

Host [00:50:12] That's. That's close to bountiful, right? I mean, yeah. Lagoons there. What's not the love? But. But that's.

Guest [00:50:18] There's.

Host [00:50:18] So you see these picturesque Mormon families that are big and look like they're beautiful and fully functional and healthy and happy. I wonder if that was influential for you.

Guest [00:50:31] 100%. It was. Why I was willing to give up everything I did for it.

Host [00:50:35] Yeah.

Guest [00:50:37] And it didn't seem to be worth it because I'm at BYU dating this rm and it doesn't work out. We don't stay together. And I am absolutely heartbroken, crushed, gutted, because I still love my high school boyfriend. I didn't break up with him because I didn't love him.

Host [00:50:57] Right.

Guest [00:50:57] Okay. Didn't both focus or something? So I loved him so much. Like, why am I out here, away from him? Why did I give all of this up and I have nothing. It's not even worth it. And I called my high school boyfriend and I wanted to get back together with him, and he said no. Oh.

Host [00:51:16] Oh.

Guest [00:51:17] I'm just alone. And then this is where things get weird. So that family who I was really, really close with, with the six kids and the. The son who asked me if I want to get baptized, he's the one who ended up baptizing me. He went on his mission, but his sister, who I was best friends with, she moved out to Provo. And so finally I have someone, My best friend who was there by my side when I got baptized. She was the one waiting for me when I got baptized and I was in the font. She was the one who I Wanted right there to give me my towel when I got out of the baptismal font. She was my best friend. Her family were like parents to me and other family to me. And so finally, you know, I'm so devastated because I don't have this rm, nor do I have my high school boyfriend who I'm really in love with. But my best friend comes out and we start hanging out with this group of people who are all RMS returned missionaries living in Provo. And they're all smoking, their bongs are on the table, they're all drinking, they're all having sex. And I'm going to this house, hanging out with them all. I'm like, what am I supposed to do here? And I tried the alcohol one time and I was like, this is disgusting. I don't like this. I was miserable being there. Like, I'm at byu, and then I've realized that a lot of these people were actually BYU students as well. I'm like, what the frick are we doing here? What is going on? And it was just. I got into, like, the hookup culture because I was still in the dorms. This was still my freshman year. And so I'm not hanging out with pre missionary boys now. Now I'm hanging out with RMs who are older, who are partying happy.

Host [00:53:08] BYU.

Guest [00:53:09] Yeah. No, it happens. You believe it? Jinx. So I'm like, I don't know why I'm doing this. And, like, now I'm realizing that all these guys come home from their mission and maybe they're feeling happy and on this high from their mission, but something snaps and they just want to hook up with girls, right? Bring in Tinder and the hookup culture of, like, you just hang out, make out, maybe do a little bit more. So now I've got these RMS who I'm hanging out with, and they're trying to fool around with me. And I'm like, this is hard because, like, I've done this stuff before. You know, I'm a virgin and I want a guy, but none of these guys actually want me. They just want to fool around with me. And they're not even good returned missionaries. They're not even, you know, being good righteous priesthood holders. So I'm like, confused as heck, but trying to do the right thing. I'm feeling sad because I don't have anyone, even though I'm at byu. Like, I've got friends here, but it's just not a happy environment for me. I don't feel like I'm actually learning Anything until I dive into my marriage and family class. And that was like this glue that kept me in the church. Everything I was learning about marriage and families was all rewriting what was wrong with my family growing up and showing me how I really can have a different family. And I was realizing all the issues that I had in my relationship with my high school boyfriend. And I was like, I don't even want him. I can move on from him. I don't have to be sad and long for him anymore. I know how to be a good wife, a good mother, and. And I'm going to find a good return mission. I'm not going to hang out with these losers anymore who are drinking and smoking. And I was like, just all gung ho about learning about marriage and families. And I did not go to BYU to get my Mrs. Degree, but I sure left with it because I just wanted to learn how to be a wife and mother. I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't know that you could go to school to learn how to do that. And all I ever wanted was a family. Literally since the time I was six years old, I was pretending to give birth. I couldn't wait to be a mother. I couldn't wait to have a family. And I'm actually at college learning how to do that. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna be the best wife and mother ever. All the boys are gonna want me because I'm gonna be such a good wife. I'm learning how to do it. I've got a degree in this. Still couldn't freaking find anyone. I like, never got asked on dates. And I had a roommate then, so I've, like, moved out. I'm like a sophomore now. I'm in an apartment, Alpine Village. And I've got a roommate who's 17. She just graduated from high school, and she's getting asked on dates left and right. Why do you think?

Host [00:56:03] What was going on?

Guest [00:56:06] She's from Cedar Hills. She's just like this sweet, kind, cute Mormon girl, right? I preferred the sexier look for myself, right? Like, I'm into makeup, I'm into tight clothes. You know, I don't just wear, like a cute little headband in my hair. I always preferred a sexier look. And so I think I was dangerous to all the boys. They would look at me and be like, oh, I'm gonna think bad thoughts if I look at her. Or I'm gonna want to do bad things with her. I gotta stay away from her. That's my Guess I also was.

Host [00:56:42] Well, you weren't. Pioneer heritage.

Guest [00:56:43] Nope. Yeah, my family is not Mormon. I'm not from out here. I'm from the East Coast. Like, I'm a different breed.

Host [00:56:50] You're the girl. This sounds terrible, but you're the girl you hook up with, not the one you.

Guest [00:56:55] Yeah.

Host [00:56:55] Marry 100 to a BYU?

Guest [00:56:58] Yeah. Rm I think so.

Host [00:56:59] Is that fair?

Guest [00:57:00] That's what I would guess.

Host [00:57:01] Okay.

Guest [00:57:01] I didn't have anyone tell me that, but I would guess that. Um, and then you compare to my roommate who's just like queen sweet, cute, innocent, not harmful, not dangerous. And I'm just watching all these other girls get asked on dates left and right, and I wanted that and it didn't happen. I would get all these guys on Tinder who'd want to hook up with me, but they never wanted a second date. And I didn't want anything more. And so I'm trying to just have faith. Right. What does God ask you to do? He will bless you. He will keep his promises if you are faithful and you do what is right. So I dive into my ward, I dive into scripture study, like, full force more than I ever have. So active in my calling, participating in every single church activity, ward prayer, going to all the things, going to all my classes. I'm like, I'm just gonna try to be happy. I'm just gonna try to put a smile on my face. I'm gonna try to look appealing and nice and like, I'm not dangerous. I'm just gonna do everything that I can possibly do within my control to be a good Mormon girl so that God will bless me was what my patriarchal blessing said. If there's any place I'm going to meet my worthy priesthood holder husband, it's here. It's Provo. Think I'm going to graduate and go back to New York and find him. No.

Host [00:58:14] Right?

Guest [00:58:15] It's got to be here.

Host [00:58:16] Yeah.

Guest [00:58:17] So I did all the things and I had no luck. And I was so sad. And so I took a step away from the Mormon boys. I'm like, all right, forget it. Let's. Let's give non Mormon boys a chance while at byu. Yeah.

Host [00:58:34] You dated non members? Wow.

Faith Crisis Begins and Disciplinary Council

Guest [00:58:37] Yeah. And this is where things started to unravel for me because I was doing everything right, everything I was supposed to do, and nothing. And that's like, I'm getting an education. That's what I'm here for. But, like, I also gave up love and a relationship and my family to come out here and have this Opportunity to be around Mormons to find an RM. I didn't need to get married at 19 or something, but like, hopefully when I graduated I'd at least have a prospect. But like there wasn't even a pattern. There wasn't even a glimpse of hope for me because only first dates, never second dates, mostly hookups. And by hookups I mean making out. And so that's when I gave the non members a chance. And it was really confusing for me because once again I felt like when I was in high school and I was living like two separate lives, it's like, okay, there's this part of me that believes in the church and has all these Mormon friends and wants to be a good Mormon girl. But then this part of me that's like, why? Why try? I can have a normal life. And it was really confusing, like don't I believe in this? So I just kind of ignored it and just tried to make myself happy. So I met this non Mormon guy, he lived in Syracuse because he was in the Air Force. And so I drove up there, hung out with him, one thing led to another, you know, There we go. Break the law chassis. Oh no, I left out a huge part of my story.

Host [01:00:19] Oh, go ahead.

Guest [01:00:20] I have to go back.

Host [01:00:20] No, it's a good.

Guest [01:00:21] Do you want me to go back? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. There's a, there's a good part of this that I missed. Okay. Aren't you supposed to keep me with my outline? No, we can bounce around however you feel it's on your mind. Okay. So here's a big part of it too. I forgot to say this. So when I was 19, the church had general conference changed the missionary age. I'm sitting there in my living room listening to the prophet say that now 19 year old girls can serve a mission. And it hits me like a ton of bricks that I need to go on a mission. So I immediately text my bishop, set up an appointment as I'm sure 500 other girls did. And I immediately call my mom as a member of the church and tell her and she's like crying, she's so happy, she's so supportive. She can't wait to take me to the temple to take me shopping for missionary clothes. And then I have to call and tell my dad. And at this point I have a scholarship at byu. They were paying half tuition, but my dad was paying for everything else. My housing, my food, my tuition, everything else. And so I call my dad and he was so freaked out. He's like, what if you Go to Africa. What are you gonna do? Where are you gonna go? What's gonna happen? You're gonna be all alone. I'm gonna have no way to even talk to you or see you. And I was like, it'll be okay. I'll be safe. Maybe I'll go to Temple Square, and I'll be in Salt Lake. You don't know. And he was just devastated. And he was like, no, I'm not gonna pay for your college. I'm not gonna pay your cell phone bill. I'm not gonna pay for anything anymore. If you go and do this, you think you can come back and I'm gonna pay for your life? Nope. Not if you go on a mission. And so at that point, I had been, like, blogging a little bit, kind of just as a journal. And I wrote this whole blog post. I'll go where you want me to go. And I put that whole hymn in there. I'll say what you want me to say. Go where you want me to go, do what you want me to do. And I was like, it is not my will but thine. That's how I felt. I have to do what God wants me to do. I am submitting my will to his. I don't care that my family hates me. I don't care that I'm leaving behind my education. I have to go. I have to go on a mission. So I go and I meet with my bishop, and we're talking about it, talking about the process of filling out the papers, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, wait, did you have issues in the past? I was like, yeah. Like, yeah, I've had sex before. He was like, yeah, when was last time that happened? And I was like, like a year ago. He was like, okay, you're gonna have to wait a full year now, like a year from right now until we can even submit your papers. Like, you've gotta be kidding me. I haven't had sex in nearly a year. I've repented of it, moved on. I'm trying to go on a mission. My family's threatening me, and you're telling me I have to wait a year before I can even submit my papers because of something I did over a year ago that I repented of and moved on from? I'm trying to do something good. You're going to stop me? Trying to share the gospel? You're going to stop me? I was livid, but I convinced myself to just try to live a missionary life. I literally only listened to Disney music. I would not Watch movies or TV shows with my roommates, unless they were like Disney movies. I was like, I'm just gonna live like a missionary. I'm just gonna try. And, man, that was crushing that it never happened. And then I just was like, forget it. I give up. I'm done. I'll just move on.

Host [01:04:03] How'd that leave you feeling about your worth or your value or the church or.

Guest [01:04:09] I'm confused because this wasn't my first time having to meet with the bishop and repent. And I thought that once it was repented of, like, it was done. So I didn't understand why if I was being wiped clean through taking the sacrament and, you know, using the atonement in my life, why am I not clean enough to go on a mission? It's not like I'm telling you I had sex yesterday and I was lying about it or something. Like, can you not see how much I want to do this? Can you not see how pure and righteous I'm trying to be and do a good thing is very confusing and just made me really sad. But again, I didn't make it about me because the church is true. It's just not part of my plan. For some reason, God's intervening for some reason. Did you have, like, a spiritual confirmation when you prayed about if you should go on a mission and then felt conflicted when the bishop told you and it didn't work out and you were like, I had a. I had a spiritual prompting. I was supposed to go, and now what am I supposed to do? No, I didn't feel conflicted at all. I just trusted that it was all part of the plan. I had enough faith to just trust that, you know, I was supposed to feel like I was supposed to go and that God just has a different plan for me. And that actually motivated me to be a missionary at home. Every member a missionary. Right. So I was like, all right, if I can't actually go on a mission, I'll try really hard to be a good missionary here. Like, I'll get more into blogging. I'll start writing more about my testimony and my spiritual experiences and just be the best Mormon I can be.

Host [01:05:39] Be a digital missionary.

Guest [01:05:40] Yeah, totally. That was a little seed that turned into something else. Yeah. So again, that's when I was still just trying to be a really good Mormon, super active in my calling, trying to do everything right, but yet God's not blessing me with a husband or even anyone to date. Like, not even a boyfriend. So I start dating the non Mormons. This guy who's up in Syracuse, and he asked me if I would go marry him in Vegas. And I said, yeah. And I told my roommate, and I was like, would you come with me? And she was like, halle, this is crazy. Have you told your family? Are you gonna tell anyone? Are you just literally gonna go run away to Vegas and get married? And I was like, I don't know. Maybe I won't tell anyone. Like, I was just so. I had a lot of attachment wounds from my high school boyfriend and from my upbringing, my childhood, that I just wanted so badly to feel loved and accepted. And especially being at BYU now, like, three years, and not feeling that ever. Just getting rejected and denied and not being wanted it. Yeah. I was just gonna cling on to the one person who did want me, and it was this guy. He asked me to marry him, and he was the first boyfriend I had ever had, or even someone who I was kind of hanging out with, seeing, dating, who didn't criticize me. Every other person I had dated, even my high school boyfriend, would always, like, make little jabs at me or tell me I was doing something wrong, I wasn't good enough, or I should change something about the way I dressed or what I did. And even though none of the BYU guys necessarily said that explicitly, it was so obvious. I still felt it like, I'm not good enough for them. I'm probably too fat, because I was a little chubbier at the time. I was, like, 30, 40 pounds heavier than I am now. And so I just felt like, you know, it's either because I'm fat or it's either because I have a pass or it's because of this or that. Like, they're just too critical of me. And I finally found someone who literally did not care about any of it, just accepted me, loved me, never once said a negative thing about me, told me how amazing I was. I was eating that up. Why wouldn't I marry a guy like that? And so this is getting crazy, because it's the end of my college career. I have applied for graduation, have this guy who I want to marry. So that means I'm gonna have to stay here. But during the time of not dating anyone, I had wanted to move to Arizona because I came to Arizona on vacation a lot as a kid, and it was kind of like this happy, warm, sunshine place. And so when I was struggling while I was at byu, I was like, I'm gonna go to Arizona. That's where I'm gonna be happy. There are Mormons there. If I'm not finding anyone here at BYU by the time I graduate, hopefully I can find someone in Gilbert. So I'd kind of had this plan to move to Arizona, but now I'm dating this guy who I want to marry. Okay. Would have to give up Arizona for him. And then I had also told him, you know, how much I really wanted to get married in the temple. And he asked me, like, what would that look like? What would I have to do to give that to you? And I was like, you'd have to get baptized. You'd have to, like, take the discussions. And he was like, okay, I could do that. I was like, I'm gonna get what I want. I'm gonna have a convert husband. We're gonna get married in the temple one day. I'm gonna get what I want, finally. And I had a plane ticket booked to go to Arizona already, to go find apartments, find somewhere to live. So I came out to Arizona just on vacation, and I couldn't get ahold of my boyfriend, like, calling him, texting him. He's not answering me. And finally, the next day, he gets back to me, and I was like, are you okay? What's going on? And, you know, he's in the Air Force, so he sometimes has to work, like, all night. His life's kind of crazy. In the military, you can't just sit on your phone whenever you want. And, you know, he told me whatever he was up to, and I was like, okay, well, I'm coming home tomorrow. Like, are you gonna pick me up from the airport? Are you gonna be there? And he was like, yep, I'll see you tomorrow. I'll be there at this time. Love you. See you then. So I get home, someone else picks me up, brings me home. I get all ready. I get all cute, all dolled up, and I'm waiting for him to come. I text him and I call him, and he doesn't answer. And then I go look at his Facebook, and it's gone. I'm like, what just happened? I'm like, I'm sitting here waiting for you. Where are you? And I could not get a hold of him. He literally disappeared. And at this point, I had been wearing a, like, fake engagement ring on my finger because I don't want to be hanging around BYU and stuff, people thinking I'm single when I'm not. In my mind, I'm getting married. And I also had started sleeping with this guy. So I'm like, I don't really care about the church stuff. Like, I'm just going through the motions. Like, I'm gonna marry this guy. We're gonna be together. We'll get married in the temple one day. Like, I'm not worried about it. I didn't really care about the chastity issue because I wasn't going to get married in the temple. He had to convert first. So I remember going to FAG because my roommate was like, just get out. Just come with us.

Host [01:11:00] What is that for?

Guest [01:11:01] Family home evening. But when you're at byu, it's just a big activity with, like, your ward just hanging out. And so I'm at this house and my bishop's there, and he can tell something's wrong. And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna get married. I hope. I just couldn't tell anyone what was going on. No one knew that I was sleeping with this guy or that he had disappeared on me. How was I supposed to tell anyone that? And so I let a week pass. Still no word from him. And then I drive all the way up to Syracuse, knock on his door. I was waiting for him to get home from work. So he pulls up to the house, and he sees me in my car parked right out front. He immediately runs in the house. So I quick jump out. I'm banging on the door. Nothing. I'm, like, sitting out there for at least 10 minutes banging on the door. I also had stuff at his house still. Like, some clothes and earrings and, I don't know, a toothbrush or something. And so then I go back to my car, and I see he texted me finally after a week, and he said, leave me alone, Hallie. Like, what happened? What the frick? I gave up everything for this guy. I'm supposed to marry you. You're just disappearing from me. What? And I just spiraled from there. Like, this was in September, and I'm about to graduate in December, so I only have a couple months. And I'm like, what am I going to do? I don't even feel really bad about what I did. Like, I have no desire to go meet with my bishop just because he left me. Am I gonna go meet with my bishop and repent now? No, I don't even feel bad about it. I loved him and I wanted to be with him. And I was just, like, sick. Like, so depressed. As you can imagine, you think you're gonna marry someone and they literally disappear from you. So I just was alone. Didn't talk to my roommates, didn't talk to anyone, didn't hang out with anyone. Didn't go anywhere, stopped going to classes, almost failed because I was so depressed, couldn't do anything. Felt like I definitely don't fit in here. I don't even want to freaking be here around all these Mormons who have no idea what I've gone through. They're all like perfect, innocent, stupid and annoying. I'm experiencing real pain, real hurt. I've, you know, had sex and these people don't even understand what it's like to love someone and be intimate with someone and have it ripped away from you. And I was just like spiraling.

Host [01:13:35] Let me check in with you on that. So, so number one, Mormonism has this purity culture of like the licked cupcake and the, yeah, you know, the board with the nail in it. So I mean, you know, there's this purity culture and this sort of impurity culture that I'm sure you were constantly being reminded of that you had sinned and you had the atonement, but still you were that licked cupcake, potentially. I'm wondering if there was some of that. And then, and then there's also this heady, I'm going to Oz. I'm Dorothy, going to Oz. When you leave your, your New York home, you go to byu, you've got all these hopes and dreams and then year after year after year, none of it's coming true. And I'm wondering what that was like for you spiritually and psychologically to just see everything crumble when you were so idealistic upon arriving and what, what was going on internally, psychologically, with your self worth, with your emotional state by the, by the time you're done and now, and now the non member boy even, even breaks up with you.

Guest [01:14:43] Right.

Host [01:14:43] Like, I'm just trying to imagine what that was like for you psychologically and emotionally.

Guest [01:14:47] Yeah, I mean, I literally walked around BYU campus every day feeling like a piece of crap because everyone is so talented. You know, I thought I was a big deal. You know, I was a big fish in a little pond in New York. I was really good at music, good looking, whatever. Then I go to byu, everyone's good looking, everyone's talented, everyone's spiritual, everyone's amazing. And clearly no one wants me. I'm also damaged goods because of my past. So even if a guy did want me once he found out about my past, he probably wouldn't because you could

Host [01:15:21] take the atonement theology and say you're clean. But then the bishop, you know, when you try and go on a mission, the bishop's like, ah, I'm not seeing anything.

Guest [01:15:28] Yeah, exactly.

Host [01:15:29] So it's.

Guest [01:15:30] And it's like, yeah, do I tell a guy? So if I've repented of it and it's clean, it's. God remembers it no more. Do I have to tell a guy that I've had sex before? Or is it like it never happened? Is it okay for me to not say anything that's not in my nature? Like, that's part of my past? Like, I'm an honest person. I'm an open book. I would have to tell someone. And so I'm just walking around feeling like this imperfect piece of crap who no one wants. I don't fit in here. Never fit in. Haven't had a great time going to all these activities and all these friends and whatnot. Like, I feel like I've been a loner the whole time and I've been trying to do everything right, literally. Reading my scriptures, conference talks, serving in my calling, going to all the activities that I can. Yeah. And why doesn't anyone want me? Like, what's wrong with me? And then why did I feel like this person came into my life and I was supposed to marry him and that not work out? He doesn't want me. And it's like, where is God in all of that? Where is he helping me? Where is he keeping his promises? Where is he keeping his end of the deal? The whole time, I just had faith and been waiting. Right. Trying to be patient. There's purpose in all things. It'll happen and then it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen and it doesn't happen. Yeah, My faith was just destroyed at that point. So when he had disappeared and it was time for me to graduate, I did move to Arizona. I found a room and a house to rent, and it was a good price and it worked out. And I actually. I was working at a tanning salon at the time. And this family, this couple that would come in and tan with me, you know, they would talk to me. They get used to seeing each other. And he. They said that they were going down to Arizona the same day I was. And they were like, you know, we will help you move. Like, if you feel safer, you can drive, like, right behind us. We'll stop, you know, with you every time to get gas and everything. We can even carry some of your stuff in our van. I was like, oh, my gosh, this is a miracle. Okay, Maybe God is leading me here. Like, these things are working out for me to go to Arizona. These people are going to help me move. I Found this house. Maybe this is my chance. So when I get to Arizona really

Host [01:17:41] quickly, a lot of people outside of Mormonism have no idea what Gilbert, Arizona is.

Guest [01:17:47] Yeah.

Host [01:17:47] So two questions that came to my mind is, why not go back to New York and just try and build a life there? I'm sure you had at least that potential impulse in your mind. But then also, Gilbert, Arizona, I think of a Gilbert, Arizona, as like Provo, Arizona. It's like the Mormon mecca of Arizona, where kind of the upper middle class, wealthy Mormons. There's a very high concentration. It's not Phoenix. It's. It's a very high concentration of Mormons with all the trappings of that. So. So why. Why Gilbert? Right.

Guest [01:18:18] So I'll answer your first question. I didn't include this because it's in my book. And I shared the story before. But the reason why I didn't go back to New York is because I had already tried. When I tried to get back together with my high school boyfriend and he rejected me, I was devastated. I felt like I don't even belong here. So maybe I should go back to New York. I sold my contract for my apartment. I packed up my car with all of my stuff. I went to go get my oil change so I could drive across the country. And my high school boyfriend called me because he got wind of what I was doing. And he said, don't ever talk to me again. You're crazy. I don't want anything to do with you. Don't come here. Don't come near me. Don't talk to me. Leave me alone. I don't want to be with you. I've moved on. I have someone else. And I still felt like I should go home. I still felt like I could win him over. So I'm ready to go. I've got everything planned to drive across the country to go back to New York, and There are like 10 tornadoes in the middle of the country. And I'm like, I can't go. I can't drive. There's a crazy storm happening. And it was like, so clear that God's hand was in it, not letting me go back to New York. That. That is not where I was supposed to be. And to be honest, I kind of hate New York.

Host [01:19:35] So.

Guest [01:19:36] Okay, I didn't want to be there. And I had already tried that.

Host [01:19:38] Yeah.

Guest [01:19:39] So then when I didn't go to New York at that moment, my next option was maybe I should leave BYU and go to Dixie State. Maybe I'll go down to St. George and that didn't work out either.

Host [01:19:50] Okay.

Guest [01:19:50] And so I just had to stay at byu. Even though I wanted to run away, I had to stay at byu. And so now when I'm graduating, I definitely don't want to go to New York. There's nothing there for me.

Host [01:20:02] Close that door.

Guest [01:20:03] Yeah. And Arizona felt good because I still had, like a soft place in my heart for the church and for Mormons. And it felt safe that I could be in Arizona and not really practice the church, but I would be around good people. And I actually found the house to rent on LDS housing.net so I was like, totally down to have Mormon roommates. I just didn't want to. I just wasn't all gung ho at that point. I didn't really know what I believed. I was just depressed. And instead of clinging to faith and being strong, I was like, I don't know, but I feel like I'm supposed to be in Arizona. It seems like it's working out. God's helping me to be here, so

Host [01:20:47] I have to just note. It sounds like you're chasing safety, you're chasing security. You think about your childhood and how things didn't work out for your parents and how, you know, there was instability. You didn't have that intact home. You. You've had some exposure to the real world and sin. You've made your own mistakes. And so I can see you as this 20 something, just thinking, where can I. Where can I turn for peace? Yeah, where can I turn for safety and security? Mormonism is going to. If I can just stick with Mormonism and I'll go to Gilbert because I wasn't able to find it here, but maybe in Gilbert I'll find safety, I'll find security, I'll find structure. I'll be able to find that Mormon dream. I didn't find it in Oz, but. But maybe it's, you know, Mormon, Mormon Arizona instead of, you know, Mormon Provo 100.

Guest [01:21:34] There was a little bit of hope there at that point. I didn't know what I wanted or believed in the church. And it wasn't until I got to Arizona and I had literally no one and nothing. No job again.

Host [01:21:46] That's the second time.

Guest [01:21:47] Yeah. And even no, like, roommates, like, I had. I was completely alone and I was like, okay, if I'm gonna start dating here, what am I gonna do? I don't want a Mormon boy. I don't. I'm done with that.

Host [01:22:02] More rejection.

Guest [01:22:03] Yeah. In fact, you know what? I think this whole thing is BS because if I had married that guy, right, the guy who I was supposed to marry who disappeared on me, if I would have married him and had kids with him, God's gonna separate me from them. All of my family. My parents, my siblings, my aunts and uncles, nieces, nephews. I have, like, 10 nieces and nephews. I'm gonna. None of us are gonna be able to be together, really. God's gonna separate us. Oh, but don't worry, you can go visit them in heaven. Yeah.

Host [01:22:33] In the lower kingdoms of heaven.

Guest [01:22:35] Yeah. I was starting to, like, question some of this right at the end when everything happened with that guy disappearing on me. And I had talked to a couple people about it while I was at byu. It's like, I don't know. Doesn't really make sense. And they're like, no, it's just like how your family's in New York right now. Like, you can go fly and visit them. It'll be the same thing in heaven. I'm gonna go flying, visit my family in the terrestrial kingdom. Okay, no, that's ridiculous. And I was like, if we're all God's children, like, what is the purpose of the Mormon Church? To seal us all together, all of us. Because we're all his children. Right. Why would he separate us if we are his children and he loves us? Makes no sense. It can't be true. And clearly my patriarchal blessings. Not true. Right? Like, there's no way that's true. All the stuff that was promised to me, it's not happening.

Host [01:23:20] So you're starting to question, you're starting to doubt. What year is this? You're going to 2014. Okay.

Guest [01:23:25] Very end. December 2014. So I had been kind of having these thoughts in my mind since, like, August, because I'm dating this guy, and if I'm willing to give up the temple, willing to break the law of chastity, and willing to marry someone, like, do I actually believe it then? So I'm, like, doing all this introspection, like, do I even believe in this at all? Does it even make sense? And I was like, no, I really don't think it does. And I remember calling my dad and being like, you know, I can't believe that I believe that it's. And my dad was like, what did you just say? Because I didn't swear ever. I said that to him. And he's like, who are you? And he was like, leaping for joy. He was like, I have my daughter back. You're a normal human now. I can talk to You, I'm like, dad, you could always talk to me. I still love the Yankees, I still love the Lakers. I could still always talk to me. And we could have our thing. He's like, oh, you were different. You're a different Hallie. You're in this Mormon world. You're Mormon, Hallie. And so now I felt like I can relate to my siblings again. I can relate to my parents again. I can go out to eat on Sundays with them. I go home for Christmas at the end of December and it's New Year's Eve and I'm drinking with my sister. Like, this is so cool. I get to be a normal human. But I was so sad I didn't find happiness outside of the church because if you leave the church, you're not happy. I again, was just being used by guys. Even the non Mormon boys still didn't want me. They would only want to have sex with me and nothing else. Couldn't find a job. I'd applied to a million jobs. I have a degree from byu. Couldn't find a job anywhere. Literally. I could find a job getting paid $10 an hour. I freak. No, I could go make that at McDonald's. So I was like, so sad. I felt a sense of freedom and happiness because I can be who I want to be and do what I want to do. And I was really annoyed with the church, but I was so sad. And I remember talking to this guy on a dating website and he was like, are you sure you don't believe in the church? Like, are you sure you're not really a Mormon still? And I was like, 100. Absolutely not. I have no desire to be a Mormon anymore. No. Just because I went to BYU doesn't mean anything. I don't care about it. My family's not Mormon. I'm not a Mormon anymore. And he was like, let me tell you a story. I dated a girl for three years who had left the church. And I felt very strongly that she needed to go be with a Mormon boy. And I broke up with her because of it. And she was devastated. A year later, she was married in the temple. He was like, I'm telling you, that's going to happen to you. I was like, no way in hell. Nope. First of all, what Mormon boy is going to want me? Second of all, I don't want that. I don't even think you need the temple. I don't even believe in the temple. And yet when I would be really sad late at night, I would find myself driving to the Gilbert Temple and just sitting outside. So why did I do that? Why was there some part of me that was still clinging to the temple? And like you said, the safety, the peace. I just wanted something to feel comforting. And for some reason, the temple brought me that, even just being outside. And I didn't understand what the heck was going on, but I just. The church couldn't be true. You don't need temples to be with your family forever. A loving father doesn't, first of all, separate families, and second of all, doesn't separate his children from himself. Can you imagine that as a parent saying, bye, you don't get to be with me. That's horrible. God doesn't do that if he's our father and he loves us like I'm told he does. So I just. It didn't make sense to me. And I didn't really dive too far into it. I just knew that, like, okay, if my patriarchal blessing isn't true, then the priesthood isn't true. If the temple isn't true, the priesthood isn't true. And if the priesthood isn't true, then Joseph Smith isn't true and the Book of Mormon isn't true. It's all connected. But I really loved Joseph Smith, like, really loved him.

Host [01:27:28] You loved working the glory Joseph Smith?

Guest [01:27:30] Yes. And I just couldn't make sense of it. Like, I don't know how Joseph Smith could not be true and how the Book of Mormon could not be true, but I really don't think the temple is true. So therefore it must not be true. But I'm just gonna leave it alone. I didn't look into anything at all. But you hadn't been endowed yet in the temple, right? No. Yeah, I was only 21. I was just about to turn 22. Hadn't been endowed, hadn't learned anything. This was at the end of 2014, very beginning of 2015. Whole other ball game then. Yeah. This is before a lot of stuff was coming up in the world. So.

Host [01:28:09] Dying to know what happens next?

Guest [01:28:11] Yeah. Pretty miraculous. Are you ready? So I'm sitting here telling everyone that I'm not a Mormon, I don't believe in the Church, I'm never going to be a Mormon again. Telling my family, even my friends. My best friend came out to visit me and she was like, so, like, what's going on, Hallie? Like, you don't believe in church anymore? And I was like, no, I don't. And I don't want to talk about it because I don't need you to try to convince Me, it's true, I don't believe in it. And she was like, okay. She didn't try to push me, nothing. So I had people who are respectful and kind and I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna do my thing, believe what I believe, whatever. I didn't even know what I believed. And then there's a knock at my door. It's two missionaries. And I'm like, oh my gosh. So I opened the door, I'm like, hello, Marty Mormon, you don't need to teach me anything. Bye. And they're like, oh, you are. Oh, what word are you in? And I was like, I don't know. I only went to church one time since I moved here. I don't, I don't know, I don't care. I don't actually believe in it. They're like, oh, really? Well, we would love to teach you, like, even if you're already baptized. Our job is to bring people into Christ, so can we help you do that? And I was like, no, I really don't need you to. No, thanks. And for whatever reason, I don't know why, I let them in eventually. And I just kind of was honest with them, you know, I felt like I had a one up on them because these are like 18 year old boys and I'm like 22. I've been to BYU. Like, I've taken the religion classes. Like, what are you going to teach me? What are you going to tell me that's different than what I already know? I've lived the Mormon life. I did it all. And I told them my whole story about like, I just don't think it's true. I don't think you need this. I don't believe in it. And of course they asked the question, have you read the Book of Mormon? I was like, well, no, I haven't read the entire thing, like front to back. You know, I've started first Nephi 500 times, but I haven't gotten through it. No. And even though I took BYU or I took Book of Mormon classes at byu, I was only reading it to pass a test, you know, I didn't actually read it. And they were like, okay, well what if you read it backwards? Read it from the end to the beginning. That way you'll read the parts you've never read before.

Host [01:30:23] And I do that. What do you just start in like Moroni or whatever?

Guest [01:30:27] Yeah, I started at the last chapter.

Host [01:30:29] Oh, you read, you read chapter? Yeah, read a chapter, then go back a chapter.

Guest [01:30:33] Yeah.

Host [01:30:33] Okay.

Guest [01:30:34] So I started chapter 10. Then I go to chapter nine.

Host [01:30:36] Okay, yeah, got it.

Guest [01:30:37] And they kept wanting to come back and teach me, and I was like, okay, that's fine. I'll talk to you, whatever. Because I'm like, I'm just going to be honest with them. Like, I'm. I don't want you to change my mind. I don't think you're going to change my mind, but I'm. Whatever. You can try. And, man, it was like, thing after thing happened. I got a text from a guy in my ward, and I had only been to church one time since I moved. It was like the first week I moved to Arizona. I was like, all right, let's go see what the singles ward's about. Never went back again. But this I. This guy who's texting me from the singles ward gave the closing prayer that one Sunday that I went and I remembered his name and I noticed him, and I thought he was cute, but, like, I wasn't going to that ward. And he texted me and was like, hi, Holly, I'm in the elders quorum presidency. I'm reaching out to you because the stake president wants to meet with you. I'm like, how do you want people even know who I am?

Host [01:31:34] I.

Guest [01:31:35] Would the state president want to meet with me? I haven't gone to church.

Host [01:31:37] What?

Guest [01:31:38] And so then this guy in the elders corn presidency starts Snapchatting me sexually, and I'm like, what? And so I'm like, talking to the missionaries, reading the Book of Mormon backwards, and I've got the elder scoring presidency, like, sexting me. It's like, I don't. I have no idea what's going on here. But, like, whatever. I don't care. Rolling with it. And so this guy comes over, and I'm just, like, sitting there talking to him, and he just went for it. Went all the way, had sex with him, an endowed member, which I've never done before, and I felt so freaking disgusting and horrible.

Host [01:32:29] Was he single or married?

Guest [01:32:31] Single.

Host [01:32:31] Okay, okay.

Guest [01:32:32] From a singles word, right? Yeah, Singles Ward Elders Quorum presidency. I had never even seen garments before.

Host [01:32:38] Oh, I see. I see.

Guest [01:32:40] He's a returned missionary.

Host [01:32:42] Okay.

Guest [01:32:42] And there he is taking his garments off to have sex with me.

Host [01:32:45] You'd never had sex with an rm?

Guest [01:32:46] No.

Host [01:32:47] Okay, got it.

Guest [01:32:49] And I felt so freaking sick to my stomach. Dirty, disgusted, horrified with myself for doing that with someone who was endowed. Like, I took his sin and his covenants upon myself, even though I wasn't endowed. That's interesting, because you didn't believe in the covenants. Or did you? I know. No, I didn't. So why did I care? Again, it's like this cognitive dissonance of like, well, if I believed in the Temple, why was I so willing to give it up? And it's like, well, if I don't believe in the Temple, why do I keep finding myself sitting outside of it? If I don't believe in the Temple, why do I care so much about this endowed guy breaking his covenants? So confusing. I felt like my brain was melting.

Host [01:33:28] And I think part of it is that, you know, once you learn how the brain works, the brain just makes associations.

Guest [01:33:33] Yeah.

Host [01:33:34] And so even if. Even if you've arrived at the point of no longer believing, it's true by this point, you're 20. What? 20.

Guest [01:33:42] 22.

Host [01:33:43] 22 years old. You've got, you know, 10 years of conditioning of. Of what it is to be Mormon, what's true, what heaven's like, what your purpose is, so you can. You can make some new decisions or connections in your brain cognitively that say you don't believe it anymore. But that doesn't unwire the 10 years of synapses that have been wrapped around Mormon doctrine, theology, your purpose, your mission, your patriarchal blessing, your dreams and hopes for yourself, your fears about your family. And so that's why for so many people who end up losing their faith, that can take years, if not decades, to. Well, we say unpack or deconstruct. I would even say to rewire your brain for a new reality. And so just because you are a few months into, or even a year into no longer believing, you're not going to un. Unwire and rewire your brain that. That quickly.

Guest [01:34:40] I would say at this point, I was like six months of.

Host [01:34:45] Yeah.

Guest [01:34:45] Not really being into the church.

Host [01:34:46] Yeah.

Guest [01:34:47] And so I felt so sick and disgusted and dirty and horrible and evil. And I was like, I need to be free of this feeling. I need to let it go. The only way to do that is to go to the bishop and repent. That's what you have to do because

Host [01:35:04] you're conditioned to think that that's.

Guest [01:35:06] Yeah. He's a judge in Israel. He is the one who can help me work through this and tell me if I'm clean or not. And at that point, I hadn't, like, been praying for months, and I just felt like I need help. This is horrible. This is the worst feeling. I can't believe I did this. Like, so. So disgusting. Awful. And I wrote the guy a letter, the guy who I Slept with and was like apologizing and saying, like, I know, like, you can work on this, I can work on this. We can repent. Like, you can overcome this. I'm so, so sorry. And he, like, didn't even care. I also went to Deseret Book and got him a picture of the Gilbert Temple to give to him with the letter because I felt so guilty and I wanted to help him, like, get back on track. So once again, like, I'm responsible for someone else's covenants. And did he make you feel that way or you just. No, he didn't put that upon your hair. Okay. I was sitting there telling him, like, I'm so sorry, I feel so awful. And he's like, that's all good. He probably was doing that a lot. It sounds like those Gilbert Arizona Mormons. I don't know.

Host [01:36:14] Yeah, well, it sounds like a lot of the Provo Mormons.

Guest [01:36:17] Provo Mormon the same way. So I schedule an appointment with the bishop and he had never even met me yet. And I go in there and just break down, tell him absolutely everything. He was just so loving and amazing and like non judgmental, so kind. And I felt really hopeful. And then the. The stake president. The whole reason why the Elders Quorum president guy texted me was to set up an appointment with the stake president. Then the stake president finally comes and he doesn't know me at all. And he comes and tells me about how I'm a pioneer and what I'm doing and going to do will bless my family's life for generations and that I'm so strong and I'm amazing and I'm loved and all these things. And it was like, oh, maybe my patriarchal blessing will come true. Kind of sounds pretty similar. Maybe I can overcome all this. Maybe there is hope for me. And I finally was starting to feel it. Going to the bishop and repenting, or at least trying to repent, took that weight off me. And so I was able to finally feel hope. Like, okay, if I repent, then I'll be clean and maybe there's chance for me. I don't know. I literally have no clue what the future holds, but I at least have hope now. And so I started just trying to be a good Mormon again. Read the Book of Mormon, hang out with girls, right? I'm not gonna give a crap about boys. I'm gonna make girls girlfriends. And the ward set up like this little group for me. I think it was like the missionaries who set it up. There was like a guy and two girls and they would sit in on, like, the discussions with me, essentially. And they were. Were my friends. They invited me to stuff. They would answer questions for me, be there for me. And I was like, I finally don't feel alone. Like, these people are my friends. They don't even care that I just had sex. And then I left the church for eight, nine months and didn't believe it. Like, they don't care. They still want to be my friend. Maybe this is right, and maybe this is all going to work out. And let's see. Then I went to my friend's wedding. It was April. No, let's see. Yeah, April 16th. So at this point, it's been like a month of going back to church and repenting and reading my scriptures and meeting with the missionaries and whatnot. And one of my best friends was getting married in the Ochre Mountain Temple. And so I flew up here for her wedding, and I sat outside the temple hysterical, like, this is where I need to be. And she came out of the temple and immediately hugged me and said, hallie, don't settle for anything less than this. And I was like, I gotta get here someday. I gotta. And I'd had several spiritual experiences like that before. Sitting outside the Salt Lake Temple anywhere, feeling like, this is right. I need to be here. And so I got home and I went and parked outside the Gilbert Temple and screamed and cried hysterically in my car, like, just pouring my heart out to God about how much I wanted to be here. And please let me be clean and able to enter the temple one day, please. And then I started beauty school. I got a job. I had friends. I went to this YSA activity with some girlfriends, and I was just having fun, not worried about boys. And I, like, wasn't on dating apps anymore. I didn't care about it. I was just, like, diving into going to beauty school and trying to be back in the church and work on repenting and whatnot. I was meeting with my bishop weekly. He gave me this book about the atonement to read. I was just like, I'm gonna focus on Hallie and developing my relationship with God and overcoming everything that I've done.

Host [01:40:26] You're gonna give Mormonism another try?

Guest [01:40:28] Yeah, because it proved to me that it was true. God's hand is in my life. He's doing all these miracles for me to come back here. Like, why did it take me sleeping with an endowed member? I don't know. But that's what brought me back. Realizing how sick and horrible I felt like that told me you know it's true. You know what you need to do. You knew. You know, this isn't it. You shouldn't be doing this. You know where you need to go. And, yeah, dove back in. How do you reinterpret those feelings now? Is my question.

Host [01:41:02] You should ask that at the end.

Guest [01:41:03] I want to know now. So then the biggest miracle of all happened.

Host [01:41:09] That's a great question.

Guest [01:41:10] Dang it.

Host [01:41:11] Don't forget that. Don't forget that typity type. Yeah.

Guest [01:41:15] Then I. My. My parents come to visit and I. I'm telling them a little bit about what's happened. I told them, like, yeah, there's this boy at church and I messed up with him. And I'm sitting actually on a Sunday out to dinner with them at, like, Texas Roadhouse, and I get a text from the guy who I hooked up with telling me he's been disfellowshipped. And that just rocked my world. And I felt so sick and so scared that that was going to happen to me. I felt so horrible that that happened to him because of me. Until I found out he was, yes, sleeping with several other women and lying and all sorts of other stuff. So it really wasn't my fault, but I felt like it was. And I felt so guilty and responsible, and it was not good. I was really scared because if I got disfellowshipped or even excommunicated, what does that mean for my future and finding someone ever? Like, I'm not going to worry about finding someone right now, but I have hope that could happen someday. I'm only 22, so I. I know I'm so young. And then I'm sitting in beauty school at night. I went from. To beauty school from like 4pm to 10pm at night, and I worked in the mornings. So I'm busy doing good stuff and feeling happier. And I get this Instagram message from a guy, and I have mutual friends with him from New York, and he just sent me an Facebook message, not Instagram. If I said that Facebook message saying, thanks for the ad, Hallie, I hope you have a good day. I'm like, thanks for the ad. I added you. I don't even remember getting a friend request from you because I was pretty selective about who I was friends with on Facebook, especially because. And the time that I left the church, I had been posting a lot of stuff. I got a tattoo. I was very cautious about who I let in my circle. And so I'm like, I don't just add anyone on Facebook. I don't even remember adding this person. And his last name Everts was familiar. I'm like, I know someone. Was last name Evers. Do I actually know this person? I'm so confused. And so I messaged him, and I was like, do I know you? He was like, yeah, you might know me. We have some mutual friends. And I was like, I might know you, or I do know you. Have we met before? And he was like, no, but I served my mission in New Jersey, where I met so and so. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And I didn't even think his pictures were attractive. Like, didn't care about talking to him. But he kept messaging me, which is not normal because anytime I was ever talking to a guy, I was the one who had to keep messaging and, like, keep the conversation going and pursue them. But this guy just kept messaging me. And my parents were in town, and I'm in beauty school. Like, I'm busy. I wasn't even paying attention to his messages. But he just kept talking to me. And I was sitting with my dad at Chick Fil a on a Monday. Oh, this was the day after I found out the guy was disfellowshipped. So, like, that's weighing on me. And I'm sitting at Chick Fil a with my dad, and I'm like, this guy keeps messaging me. Like, my phone keeps going off. This guy is bothering me. And he was like, well, why don't you give him a chance? Like, what? Why? He's like, yeah, talk to him. Give him a chance. You don't know. It could be really special. I'm like, okay. And so there enters my husband. And that was him. Yeah, he came over that night after beauty school. 10:30 at night, he came over. Which, you know, usually only means one thing. You're gonna fool around. Nothing. He barely put his arm around me. He was just kind, funny. We had talked on the phone for three hours prior to him coming over. Talked about everything. I mean, music, movies, sports, religion, our families. Like, everything. And I was like, wow, this is cool. The first date, you know, we hung out. It was nice. And then the second date, we. I went to his house to watch the NBA playoffs. And.

Host [01:45:31] You're a Lakers fan?

Guest [01:45:32] I am a Lakers fan, but it was the Clippers. So he likes the Clippers. And I was like, whatever. I just watched it with him. It wasn't the Lakers, which was a good thing because he hates Lakers anyway. That's funny that you remembered that. I barely mentioned the Lakers. And that stuck out to you. So we're sitting there, and he is, like, trying to be affectionate with me. Like, hold my hand or put his arm around me. And I'm, like, kind of inching away

Host [01:45:58] from him, afraid of what?

Guest [01:46:02] If he only knew.

Host [01:46:03] Yeah.

Guest [01:46:03] What I had just done, like, a month ago, and the fact that I might be disfellowshipped or excommunicated. Like, I had told him about my, like, conversion story and about kind of leaving the church for a bit, but, like, he didn't know.

Host [01:46:17] Yeah.

Guest [01:46:19] And so he kept trying to look at me and make eye contact, and I could tell he was, like, wanting to kiss me. And I just, like, wouldn't even look at him in the eye. And he was like, what's going on? And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna tell you. I had sex, like, a lot when I left the church. I drank. I even very recently had sex with someone who's endowed. And, you know, I'm going back to church now, but I am going to be having a disciplinary council, and I don't know what is going to happen there. I might be disfellowshipped. I might get excommunicated. I don't know. And I don't think you're going to want someone like me. And he was like, thank you for telling me that. You're so amazing. And I don't care at all. I don't judge you at all. I would never hold that against you. It doesn't bother me at all. Not in the slightest. I was like, what? How is that possible? And he shared with me his experience. He had been disfellowshipped. I was like, whoa. Oh, my gosh. Like, he's not going to judge me. He understands me. He accepts me. He loves me, even nearly. Like, he's giving me love by being kind and not judgmental. Like, holy crap. I was shocked. Like, completely floored and so freaking happy. Like, I'm pretty sure after he said that, I could not stop smiling. I had the biggest smile ever. Like, I didn't expect that at all. And the fact that he even told me because, like, I'm kind of walking around carrying this secret of, like, my sins and what I've done and how no one's going to want me. And he just offered that information up to me. Our second date. He doesn't even know me, and he told me that he'd been disfellowshipped. And so then the next day, my parents were leaving. I hung out with him twice while my parents Were in town. Sorry, mom and dad, I'm gonna go hang out with this guy. And I told them what happened. Like, remember that guy you told me to give a chance? Like, I went out with him last night, and it was really good. And they could tell. They were like, you're a different person today. You're so happy. You're smiling. You seem so excited and hopeful and happy. Like, this is amazing. I'm excited for you. And I just was like, I can't believe this. Like, what is going on? So my parents leave that day. It was a Wednesday, and CJ was going to school, a Catholic school in Mesa, getting his undergrad and playing volleyball. And he just was like, I want to see you. When can I see you? Like, you're at. You're in school. He's like, I have a break right now. It's my lunch. I want to see you. And I was like, okay, I guess I can, like, drive over there. His school is across from the Mesa Temple. So I was like, okay, let's. We can meet at the temple. And so I drive over to the Mesa Temple, and I'm sitting there outside, and it all comes crashing down on me again. Like, dude, you're not good enough. Look where you are. Like, you're at the temple, but you don't belong here. You really think you're going to make it inside one day? You think you're going to get married there one day? Like, you're not good enough. You think he's gonna want you? You think you can even trust him? Look at what every other guy has done. You can't trust him. This isn't gonna work out. And so then he comes up behind me, all excited to see me, and I'm sitting there crying, and he just puts his arm around me. And I was like, I just have to tell you, like, I really appreciate everything that you said, but I can't trust you. And I can't even trust that you're gonna want to be with me. Like, I might not be able to go to the temple. I don't know what, like, the future looks like for me. And I don't want to lead you on, and I don't want you to pursue me when I can't give you what you want. You want a good Mormon girl who you can marry in the temple. Like, it's not me. And I was just crying and telling him all of this, and he's like, I know. I understand. And I can't convince you to trust me, but I'll earn Your trust and I'll be patient. And I was like, why are you wanting me? Like, what? Why would you even want me? Why would you even try? I'm telling you, I can't trust you. And I've got all this crap from these previous relationships. Like, why would you even want to give me a chance? I'm a broken girl, like, in every way, not just with the church. Not only am I an imperfect, kind of crappy Mormon sometimes, but I also am. Have all this baggage. I got issues, like, why would you want me? And he just, like, didn't care. And so he held my hand. He's like, do you want to walk around? And so we were walking around the mesa temple, and he tried to kiss me. And I put my hand to his chest and rejected him and repeated myself once again. I can't. I don't know if I can trust you. I don't know if you should give me a chance. I don't know if I should give you a chance. I can't. And he was like, okay, that's fine. I'll wait. What the frick? Who is this guy? I've never met anyone like this. Never. And so then we're sitting under this tree with all these flowers. He picks up a flower, puts it behind my ear. He's being all sweet. And I just was, like, overwhelming, like, you need to give this guy a chance. And so I kissed him. And I knew immediately that that was my last first kiss. I knew it immediately. And I was so happy. He had to go back to school, so I left. And then he came over that night and told me he loved me. Day three. And I knew I loved him, too. And I was just like, holy crap, look at what God is doing for me. Something I never thought was possible. I've never had anything like this before. And as we continued over the course of the next couple days and couple weeks, he showed me that he was different than any other guy. Like, he would do anything to see me and to be with me and to pursue me and to respect me. He knew everything I had done. I even. This is gross. I haven't told anyone this. Are you ready, world? I would be naked and ask him to put lotion on my body, and he would close his eyes and not touch me. And he would just, like, kind of rub my arm. He'd be like, okay. He respected me. He didn't take advantage of me. He was honest with me. It was amazing. I couldn't believe that someone would actually want me and fight for me. And be patient with me and not even care that I might not be able to go to the temple. It was like everything I've wanted, finally. And then the disciplinary council came and I told him, I don't know what the heck is going to happen here, but what if it's a year? What if I'm excommunicated? He said, we'll figure it out. If it's a year, we'll wait. We'll wait the year. We'll get married in the temple after the year.

Inside the Disciplinary Council Process

Host [01:53:18] So if it's okay, let's dig a tiny bit into the disciplinary council process because we have a lot of non Mormon listeners and. And then just a lot of people haven't been through it or don't know about it.

Guest [01:53:29] Yeah.

Host [01:53:30] So you, you had, you had had sex with a, with a returned missionary. I would have expected it's disciplinary counsel for him because once you go through the temple and get out your endowments, you're supposedly kind of held to a higher standard. You hadn't been through the temple yet. So I'm a tiny bit surprised that, that a disciplinary council was kind of on the table for you. But for those who just don't know anything about it, just tell us. Take us through that full experience of when you first thought that, you know, when the idea was first introduced to you by your bishop, and take us all the way through, you know, till the end.

Guest [01:54:06] Yeah, so you're exactly right. Every time I had repented in the past, it was just me with the bishop, one on one, working it out whether you get your ability to go to the temple taken away. You get your temple recommend taken away. And there's like no time frame on that. That's like up to the bishop's discretion for what he thinks your punishment should be. It could be you can't take the sacrament, which is kind of counterintuitive because if the sacrament is to renew your baptismal covenants and wash you away, isn't that what you want when you sin? But that's a punishment, and it's always just done with your bishop. But the disciplinary council, he never told me why that needed to happen. He just said, we are going to be doing a disciplinary council. And I didn't even know what that meant because I had never really heard of that. I had heard of, like, excommunication, but I didn't know what it looked like. So he told me it will be with his two counselors and then also the clerk there. So four people, four grown men. I'm 22 years old, we're all going to be in a room together for me to basically tell the story of what I did. And even though I'd already met with the bishop and told him the whole story before, and I had already been meeting with him like weekly nearly, and now he said, we have to have this, this council where I guess he, the bishop can't rely on himself to make this decision. And that's the purpose of the council. He needs his counselors to help. That's what I would assume in my book. I actually had this whole thing about what it is because, like, you can't even find anywhere in the church talking about it doesn't say, like, what it means to be disfellowshipped. And people don't even know that that's a thing. So, yeah, I wasn't aware of what it would entail.

Host [01:55:52] I mean, I think the idea, and this is just to get back to this theme of influence, which I think is really important. If you're not unworthy, if you're not impure, then what's the need for the church, right? And so they have to begin by establishing your unworthiness as a human being. And so that's the whole sin model is you're broken, you're fallen, you're dirty, you're unclean, you have screwed up. And for me, part of that is to then break you down. So you get to the point where you're humbled in the church's viewpoint, but. But really you're feeling worthless and bad. And so you need something to become whole. You need something to be okay. And so, you know, in high demand organizations in the military, whatever it is, they have to break you down till you get to the point of humiliation. And then you need them to build you back up again. And I think there's something to that. And then they need. You can't just have a direct relationship with God, because if you have a direct relationship with God, you don't need them. And so by inserting the bishop in between you and God and having it be rooted out of a breakdown of you, then the bishop and the church can help build you back up. But they build you back up with them as the intermediaries between you and God. And so there's. It seems like that's kind of going on, but then also because you're dirty, because this is purity culture, you need to be wiped clean, but it can't be between you and God. They've got to decide, number one, how serious the transgression is that you've committed. And then they're the only ones that can decide what the punishment is that will match the severity of the sin, that will then allow you to take the proper steps for repentance so that you can be wiped clean again. And it needs. You need to sit alone with four men in a room to have them kind of be. I mean, the bishop's called a judge in Israel, and so he's going to use the Holy Ghost to be the judge in Israel to ask you all the details about your experience so that he can find out how serious is, so that he can then come up with the punishment, so that then you can be wiped clean and feel like you're whole again. And that's kind of. I don't know if that's the strategy, but that's my understanding.

Guest [01:58:18] That's how it's done. And it reminded me of what you said, like how you have to rely on the bishop. It's like how converts rely on missionaries. They're the ones who bring them this happiness or this peace or this safety. And that's how us as sinners feel about our bishop. The bishop is the one who tells us we've been forgiven and tells us we're now clean and tells us we can now go to the temple. It's not God telling us, it's the bishop. And the funny thing is that the church has a handbook, right this way, of the organization for the church and how to run things. And it tells you, or it tells a bishop what to do, how to have, how to handle these sins, basically. But yet it's not the same for everyone. And what was weird to me was like, why did I have to tell them my whole story about my upbringing and everything about my life? Why did I have to go back to the past?

Host [01:59:07] Okay, so you go take us through cinematically. So you, you, you, you show up at the church at a designated time. Yeah, I walk into a room. Who's there?

Guest [01:59:16] It was a Sunday. I had prepared all day. I prayed and prayed and prayed. I watched the work in the Glory movies that day to help, like, invite the spirit and help me to feel good and give me hope. And I went to the church building. I'm just sitting outside the bishop's office, like just waiting there. The clerkers, secretary or whatever is there. And I'm just waiting for what I feel like is my death sentence. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna go in there and get my head cut off. I don't know what's gonna happen? It's uncomfortable. I'm nervous. And so I walk in and it's just all these men sitting there and they started with a prayer and I already am crying, you know, because it's scary. And I don't know what my fate will be. And not only my fate, but like, this affects my future with CJ now because we want to get married. And if I get excommunicated, what's going to happen? If I get dispellowshipped, what's going to happen? Is he going to wait for me? He said he would. He said if I'm disfellowshipped and we have to wait a year, he would, and we could get married in the temple in a year. And so I was just so scared because I don't know how I'm even going to survive a year. Am I really going to be able to date him for a year and not have sex with him so I can get married in the temple? It's so scary. So I walk in there and they say, like, okay, tell us. Tell us the story. Tell us what's happened and why you're here today. And I start with the beginning of my life. And they really wanted to know about, like, my parents and about how my parents aren't members of the church and how my mother converted and how I converted. And again, that's kind of weird to me because if there's a handbook for the church where it's like, if you break the law of chastity, this is the consequence. Why does it matter about my background? Oh, because they're going to be more lenient with me, maybe, versus someone else who was raised in the church. Is that fair? It's weird. So I told them everything, everything I've done, and they ask questions and so

Host [02:01:16] you had to confess what types of things?

Guest [02:01:19] Masturbation, pornography, alcohol, how many people I've had sex with, how many times?

Host [02:01:27] They wanted numbers, like numbers of people or.

Guest [02:01:30] Yeah, like, was it this, Was it just a one time thing? Was it with members of the church? And obviously one of them was an endowed member of the church. And again, I don't know why that matters because if the person is a member, it's not on them if they slept with me anyway. So they're asking me questions, I'm telling them the story, giving them the answers. And luckily they didn't probe too far. Like, I've heard that can happen, like asking what color underwear you were wearing and stuff like that. Luckily, it wasn't that bad.

Host [02:02:01] But I've got Leah Remini's voice in my head because just we as Mormons are conditioned to where, oh, worst case scenario, they ask you if you orgasmed, which has happened, or they ask you if you enjoyed it. You know, they ask you, where did he touch you? How did he touch you? How many. You know, like it wasn't that, but just the idea of four men sitting in a room with a 22, 2 year old woman asking her to confess her sexual activities to them in detail,

Guest [02:02:31] getting that image in their mind like that there's.

Host [02:02:34] There. I don't. I think we're conditioned to think that that's okay, that in some world. And then you add to that, they're judging your worthiness, they're judging whether you are a good person or not. And they're acting as inner intermediaries for God himself. There's so much of a power differential there. And it's. And then your worth, your value is being judged. And it's all on this basis of you being impure or dirty or unclean for having, you know, intimate relations with somebody you, you know, cared about. Maybe.

Guest [02:03:09] Yeah.

Host [02:03:09] Or not.

Guest [02:03:10] And I didn't think it was weird at all. I honestly didn't. And just to like fast forward in the future a tiny bit, the whole Sam Young thing and like protecting the children, interviews with bishops, I was against that movement. I was like, bishops are called to do this, are called of God. This is right. It's okay, we need their help. Like, I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I have been told enough times that these men are called of God. They have these special keys to do this and that it's inspired. And even with my own experience with my disciplinary counsel, I truly felt like the Lord was in it. And my husband had his experience with being disfellowshipped. And he told me that he knew he needed to be disfellowshipped even though he was 18 and hadn't served a mission and hadn't been endowed, that that's what he needed to do and he was grateful for it. And so he said that to me, like, whatever happens, if you're disfellowshipped, excommunicated, whatever, the Lord's in it and it's part of the plan and it's okay. And so I just had this strolled into my brain, like, these men are called of God. They're doing what God wants them to do. This is how God wants this handled. I can't handle it on my Own. I can't just rely on him. I can't just rely on the atonement or taking the sacrament or prayer. I have to go to the bishop. He's going to help me. And in some ways I think that's great because a lot of people do want direction, right? If they feel lost and they're like, I don't know what to do, they need someone to, like, give them a plan. And for me, I thought whatever that plan would be was for the best. And for some people, maybe it's not. I know some people get really, really hurt and they're like, forget it, I'm not going back. But for me, I just was willing to do whatever they said I needed to do. They gave me a book to read about the atonement. They had me meeting with them weekly. I didn't take the sacrament for several weeks.

Host [02:05:04] And these are the punishments.

Guest [02:05:05] Yeah.

Host [02:05:06] And just to, just to review. So, like, worst case scenario, you're excommunicated, which is what I went through and what many people have been through where you're basically, your membership is, is negated. You're no longer a member of the church. It's as if you were never a member. And that's the worst possible thing that can happen to a Mormon in their life. I'm, you know, according to Mormon doctrine of theology. So that that was the worst case scenario for you. And then if it, if it falls short of that, then it's disfellowship meant, which is things like, you can't take the sacrament, which is a publicly shaming activity because everyone is going to see that you're passing up the bread and the water when it comes to you, means you can't go to the temple. It means you can't pray, you can't talk in church. And then if someone calls on you to pray, you say, I can't, sorry. And we, I don't want to. I don't want to steal the thunder, but I mean, I'm just letting people know what the menu of consequences might be. And that can be for weeks or months. You can't go to the temple. You can't, you know, stay silent in the church, that kind of thing. And then the, you know, quote, best case scenario is, oh, there's no harm, no foul, you're good, you're exonerated completely, which pretty much never happens. Once you're in a disciplinary council, you're either going to get disfellowshipped or excommunicated almost always. So those are the Menu of public punishments that are available. Which ones did you get?

Guest [02:06:25] So what happened was I'm telling them this whole story. I'm crying. I got a freaking spray tan, and I'm crying. I'm like, this is horrible. My pink tan's gonna come up, and I have to go out and sit in the hallway. Like, I just have to sit out here and cry and wait for my fate.

Host [02:06:39] So they all. They deliberate.

Guest [02:06:41] Yeah, they say that they all pray. They get on their knees and pray all together, all four of them, and wait for God to tell them what to do. And they also use the handbook and read the handbook, and based on whatever they feel, they will tell you what it is. And so they had me come back in, and they're all, like, smiling at me, and I'm like, what? What is it? And it's so formal in the way they said it. Like, we have prayed about it. All of us here this day. We have pondered on your story. You know, very kind, calm, not angry or mean or anything. And they said, we have decided to issue a formal probation for a period of six months. And during those six months, you will continue to meet with members of the bishopric. You will not take the sacrament. You cannot have a temple recommend, and you need to keep the law of chastity and keep meeting with us regularly and tell us how you're doing with that.

Host [02:07:42] So

Guest [02:07:45] I was super relieved. I remember immediately going and crying to C.J. and telling him, like, it's only six months. We can get married in six months. Like, it was a miracle to me because I know people who have had sex before they got married, and it was a year for them. Just like, it was going to be a year for me to go on a mission. Right. That's what my other bishop told me, that I would have to wait a year. So I was so relieved. Like, so freaking happy. And I think my bishop was really happy. He seemed like this is what he wanted for me. And he was great. He was super loving and really awesome. He was like another dad to me. And so I continued to meet with either him or one of his counselors weekly. And I would report on, like, how I was doing with my scripture study, how I was doing with my prayer, how I was doing with reading this book about the atonement, how I was doing with my boyfriend, you know, if I was messing up and whatnot. So I was just so, like, motivated to be as clean as I could be so I can make it to the temple.

Host [02:08:43] And if I can, if I can just Kind of note the points of influence there. You're like, all of a sudden grateful to them for, you know, for not the punishment, not being worse, but also immediately. They have established that you were broken. They have established that they were your saviors. They've established that they have a direct line with God and that you are to wait for them to find out what God's will is. So not only are they the voice of God now, you know, but. But they're your intermediary between, you know, between you and God, and then they're giving you these punishments that you're bizarrely grateful for.

Guest [02:09:29] What a concept.

Host [02:09:30] And.

Guest [02:09:30] Right, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's so funny to hear you say that, because I never would have thought about it, that in a sense, I was worshiping my bishop and, like, grateful to my bishop, because in my mind, I was grateful to God. This was God's plan. This is what God wanted for me. I was grateful to him for not wanting to punish me more, but in reality, it was gratefulness for my bishop. Because if it had been the opposite way, would I have been mad at God or would I have been mad at my bishop? I don't know. If it had gone worse.

Host [02:09:57] Well, I'll never, probably never be able to say this enough on Mormon stories. Anyone in the world that claims to speak for God on behalf of someone else is. Is taking on too much power because God is the supreme ruler, ruler of the universe, allegedly. And if you claim to speak to God, you're basically claiming all power over other individuals. And that's why, as much as religious freedom, yes or no, whatever, I think it should be illegal for anyone to claim that they speak to God on behalf of other people. It's just too much power. And, And I don't even think it's like Bishop trying to become powerful over you. I think he's sweet, innocently trying to discern Heavenly Father's will and help you get better. But if we're talking about psychological influence, what's happening is he and the Church are now becoming your God, and you are now subservient to and obedient to, and submissive to their undue influence and control, regardless of what you might inside want, what might be best for you inside, and. And what you might think is right for you. You've now outsourced your authority to the Church and to the priesthood leadership. And if that bishop gets replaced, the next bishop just immediately inherits that authority and power over you. And I just want to say that's too much power and authority to give to anyone, in my opinion.

Guest [02:11:22] Well, even just think about what you just said about it's his job to help me get better. Did I need to get better?

Host [02:11:26] Right.

Guest [02:11:27] Was I broken? Is there anything actually wrong with me?

Host [02:11:29] Exactly.

Guest [02:11:30] And if you do want to help someone get better, is punishing them the way to do that? Is humiliating them the way to do that? Making them repeat all these things that they already feel bad enough about? Right. Like someone goes to the bishop on their own because they want to repent. It's not because he caught me. And, and now I have to confess, it's not like I got pulled over by the cops and he caught me doing something illegal. I went there willing with a broken heart and contrite spirit to repent. It's just doesn't seem right. But I didn't think that at the time.

Host [02:12:02] Yeah.

Guest [02:12:03] And so I just did what he asked me to do and was grateful, like you said.

Host [02:12:08] Yeah.

Guest [02:12:09] And worked my butt off to be worthy to go to the temple.

Host [02:12:12] I mean, so now you're on the worthiness hamster wheel, right?

Guest [02:12:16] Yes. Doing anything and everything. Being so careful with my now fiance. We get engaged after six weeks of dating and the bishop knows and everyone's super happy for me. Like, I'm gonna make it to the temple and I'm trying to like, plan a wedding. But remember, my probation is based on my choices. So if, let's say within this six month probation I mess up, I'm gonna have to do a disciplinary council. Again, my probation could be longer than six months. So again, the hope of like, yeah, when your six months is up, then you can go to the temple. I could screw that up again if I mess up. So I've gotta be perfect. I have to do everything right, which as we all know, is hard when you're in love and engaged. But we were really good. Like, my husband was amazing. I don't know how he was so strong and I was so grateful for it. Again, even then I was also like almost worshiping CJ because he was helping me to be strong. Like, he would help me to read my scriptures every night and make sure we said prayers and make sure we read this book about the atonement. Like, he was the one doing what a priesthood holder should do. Leading me, teaching me, helping me. Right. Like, that's what I had always wanted. That's what my patriarchal blessing promised. My patriarchal blessing talked about my husband being a worthy priesthood holder who would honor me, honor his priesthood, and that's what he was doing. He wasn't screwing it up. He was honoring me. He was respecting me. He was teaching me the gospel and helping me because I was, you know, new coming back to the church. And I hadn't even read the Book of Mormon, but now I am. I'm still reading it backwards. And I read Mormon Chapter 9, which talks about the levels of heaven and how people would rather be in hell than be in a kingdom that they're not comfortable in. And it just clicked for me. Like, go to a party where you don't fit in, right? Everyone's, like, different than you. Or let's say really, really rich and fancy. And you're like, oh, I don't fit in here. You're going to be miserable. Even if it's the coolest party in the world, you're not going to feel good there. You're not going to be happy. That's what it's like in heaven. You're going to be where you feel comfortable, and that will be heaven for you. So it's not that you're like, in a lesser heaven and you're going to be sad, missing out on the cool, high celestial heaven. You're going to be where it's happiest for you. And so that took away all my fears. I'm not worried about my family anymore because if my dad goes to the Telestral kingdom, that's where he's going to be.

Host [02:14:52] He'll be happy there.

Guest [02:14:53] Yeah.

Host [02:14:54] Yeah.

Guest [02:14:54] And I just. If you love someone, you want them to be happy, right?

Host [02:14:58] What about, you know, as you're on probation, getting the sacrament, where everyone's watching you feel, and then you have to pass it on? Or. What about. Did you ever have someone calling you and you, you said, I can't give a talk. Or I can't say, was there any of that embarrassment or shame? Because those devices can be very shaming or humiliating to. Did you experience any of that or not? Not so much.

Guest [02:15:23] I'm a really confident person. Like, I'm outspoken. I'm open about where I'm at. So I personally didn't really feel like, oh, no, people are going to see this. Like, I think pretty much everyone already knew that I was, like, coming back to the church and I had made mistakes and whatnot. Like, I was really vocal about it. Every time in Sunday School and Relief Society, you know, I would raise my hand and, like, be honest. So there are a few moments where I can remember being like, this sucks. And actually, here's a really stupid Story for you. During this six month probation, my bishop told me I could finally start taking the sacrament again. And so the day that he told me I could take the sacrament, I was so excited. CJ's sitting next to me and the sacraments getting passed to me from like the left. And so I grabbed the bread with my left hand and CJ nudges me and is like, no, you need to take it with your right hand. I'm like, you just ruined this moment for me. I'm so happy to finally take the sacrament again. You're telling me I'm doing it wrong because I use it my left hand instead of my right hand. What is that even a thing? I was so annoyed. I'm like, oh, once again, it's kind

Host [02:16:30] of a cultural thing.

Guest [02:16:31] Yeah. But I just got it wrong. Like, here's a big moment for me. I can finally, I'm clean enough to take the sacrament and I'm doing it wrong. So I wasn't embarrassed, I wouldn't say, but it was just maybe a little awkward at times. But I owned it. I wasn't afraid to, like, talk about my mistakes and what I'd done.

Host [02:16:53] But I would, I would guess, tell me if this is true, that going through that process kind of subordinates you to the church and makes you feel like you need them and, and it kind of bonds you to the church in terms of your commitment, your loyalty. Going through that process of being deemed unworthy and then being given steps to become clean, relying on your leadership and then being pronounced clean and worthy. What does that do to your commitment to the church?

Guest [02:17:22] Oh, my gosh. And commitment to my leadership, like, commitment to not God, not Jesus, but to my bishop, Bishop Tenney, like, it was. He was like my dad. He was there for me. He did this, gave me this six month probation, which gave me the ability to get married in the temple. Like, that was everything. And I would never want to let him down or disappoint him, you know, can you imagine if I messed up and I had to go back in and see him and tell him? I would be so sad and I'd feel so guilty to him that I screwed it up. Bishop. So, yeah, I was very loyal, definitely allegiant to him and to the church. And I mean, how many times can I do this? How many times can I keep going to the bishop and screwing up? Because apparently I've got problems. I don't know, I keep screwing it up. So, yeah, you cling to it for dear life because I don't want to do this again. I don't want to have to go back to the bishop and go through this all over again. So I'm going to do everything I can to be a strong, good Mormon girl. Read my scripture, say my prayers, go to church, do my calling, everything I can. So that one, I have the spirit with me which will two, help me make good decisions. That's what it's all about. We do all these things that we can have the spirit with us because you have to be worthy for even that.

Host [02:18:41] Right? Okay, but now you're on the train, right?

Guest [02:18:46] Yeah, I did it. I was good the whole time. And that day came when you have to have like another disciplinary council to close it out. So I had to meet with all of them again and do the same exact thing. I didn't have to repeat everything, but I had to give an update and basically a synopsis of how had the past six months been. What did I do? And you know, I reported to them all my good deeds and all my faithfulness and whatnot. And then again, they kick me out of the room. They pray about it, they discuss it, and they invite me back in and they say, okay, you're good. Now let's have a temple recommend interview. It's like, what, you're going to ask me the temple recommend questions right now? Okay. And this whole time I'd also again, been trying to plan a wedding and asking my bishop, like, when do you think that six months will be up? Like, when do you think I could try to schedule the temple? Because I have to tell people I have to make arrangements. That's so scary that again, I could book the temple. I could book my reception, have my family book plane tickets, and if I mess up, my bishop could tell me, nope, you screwed it up, you can't do it, and everything would be ruined. So luckily that didn't happen. And I we booked the temple for October 16, 2015, and it was at the end of September that I had my counsel to end my probation and got my temple recommend. And it was weird. Like, remember how we talked about if you repent of your previous sins, but you don't forsake them, then they come back and it's like you never took care of them. And do you have to be honest about sins you've repented of? I felt that again when I went and met with the stake president for my real temple recommend interview, not a limited use one. And he's asking me the temple recommend questions. Do you keep the law of chastity And I'm like, yes, I do at the moment. Do I have to talk about anything in the past? Like, he didn't know. And I felt guilty. So I told him. Oh, I was like, I do keep the law of chastity. But I didn't. And I didn't know that your sins were like listed on your church information. I didn't know that people had access to that. So I assumed that my stake president has no idea who I am. I'm coming in here and meeting with him. He doesn't know about my past. So I told him and he said to me, if I was your bishop, I would not have given you a temple recommend. You would have had a year probation.

Host [02:21:15] What?

Guest [02:21:17] Like, okay, but. But he said, I can. So am I good. And the sick president basically said, well, since your bishop signed it, I'll sign it. But he didn't think I was deserving. I guess so. Okay, again, that just makes me even happier for my bishop. Not happy to God or Jesus, but like, yeah, I have the best bishop in the world. Yeah, because God's giving some contradictory information to these guys as well. Darn it. Oh yeah. He told my bishop six months probation was okay, but the sick president would have said no. So which one's receiving the information from God then?

Host [02:21:55] Mm hmm.

Temple Marriage and the Wedding Experience

Guest [02:21:57] So then the next part of the story is going to the temple. And part of my six month probation was me taking advantage of that opportunity to prepare for the temple because I knew that that was going to be happening. That was the goal. So I went to temple prep classes. I read everything I could about the temple from church sources, from, you know, the book of Abraham and all that. So I was ready, like totally ready, totally excited. My girlfriend came with me to Deseret book to go pick out my temple clothes. And I was. When they're asking me options of what I would like, I'm like, I don't even know what I'm looking at here. Like, they show you a drawing of it in a book. They don't show you the actual, like pictures or even the actual clothing. They just show you this little drawing and they're asking me what I want. Which, which type? Based on these two different drawings, I'm like, I don't know what this is. Like, I can't make a decision. But my friend, luckily, who'd been through the temple, she was young like me, you know, she could help me pick whatever was cutest for the temple. So cutest was an air quotes for those listening on the podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because your temple clothes are real cute. So I. I picked all that out and went. It was like 6am the week before my wedding to go to the temple. And it was incredible. I knew that people had issues with the temple. Like, my best friend, the one whose wedding I flew out to, she was like, I don't like going back to the temple. I'm no desire to go back. I was like, what? Why? She's like, it is weird. I think my husband looks weird. I do not like it. Like, I don't know what that means, but. Okay. So I go in, and the first thing you do is your initiatory. And you go into this little locker and they tell you to put your garments on. Like, take off all your clothes, put your garments on. Finally, I'm like, oh, I finally get to see them. I finally get to wear them. Okay, hopefully they fit because, you know, you can't try them on or anything ahead of time. And then you put this big robe over you, basically, and you go in into these different rooms and have these amazing things done. And for someone like me, who had been told I was broken and dirty and worthless, basically, and even if I wasn't told that that's how I felt, they pronounced me clean and perfect. And I sobbed my eyes out as they're blessing me with this. And it was like, everything's gone. I've never felt more clean and more loved. Like, in that moment, I felt such pure love from God that he was telling me I was clean and I was good and I was special, beautiful. Like, it was so intense. And I had a great experience with that part. And I wish, like, I knew in the temple that you get a name, but I didn't know what that meant. And so at the end of the initiatory, you are given your new name. And I'm like, what do I do with this? They say, you know, not to divulge it until the proper place in the temple. Like, what does that mean? What if I forget it? And it's scary because you really have no idea what's going on. No one told me. And I was also not only nervous for my endowment, but for my ceiling because I didn't know what to expect. And my husband wouldn't tell me anything about it. I thought when I got sealed that they were going to make me have sex. Like, consummate your marriage. Like, I thought I might have to be naked in front of people. I didn't know what the heck, but even that tells you something. Like, I was afraid of that happening, and I still was totally willing to go and do it. I had no idea what was going to happen, and I was just all gung ho about it. So then really quick, there's just a

Host [02:26:05] couple things that stick out. One is that when they pronounce you clean, they were the ones that told you you were dirty in the first place. What if.

Guest [02:26:16] And myself.

Host [02:26:17] What do you mean?

Guest [02:26:19] I was the one telling myself, no one wants you. You're not clean, you're not good enough. No Mormon boy would want you.

Host [02:26:23] But I'm just making the point that they. They teach you that you're unclean or unworthy, and then they offer themselves as the. The cleaner. Right.

Guest [02:26:34] They're the savior.

Host [02:26:35] They're the savior. But. But they created. You know, there's this idea, beware of people that. That tell you you're sick or that create an illness in you and then present themselves as the cure. And there is something insidious about the fact that they were the ones who says you were ever anything other than perfect to begin with, and who says that whatever you did that was kind of healthy, normal developmental stuff isn't just like living and learning and exploring and getting to know yourself and having healthy relationships. And yet they were the ones that told you that was all dirty and evil and that you were broken. And then they turn around and pronounce you clean. There's something not right about that, in my opinion. Even though for you it felt like the most beautiful thing, and that even makes it a little bit more hard, it's sick.

Guest [02:27:26] And, you know, looking back, because now that I've been to therapy and I know all the attachment wounds that I have, starting from the time I was a very, very young child, if your bishop is there to help you and help you get better, why don't they offer therapy? Why don't they suggest, like, hey, you have this pattern. It seem, you know, you keep sleeping with people and you say you don't want to. You feel bad about it, and yet you keep doing it. Is there something going on here? Is there something underlying? Like, how can I actually help not. Let me just tell you you're dirty and you need to repent and not take the sacrament, but, like, offer real help to listen and suggest therapy or suggest anything.

Host [02:28:07] Healing your wounds from childhood.

Guest [02:28:09] Yes, exactly.

Host [02:28:10] Getting to a psychotherapist.

Guest [02:28:11] Of course. Of course. Part of it is, like, normal developmental curiosity, hormones, whatever. But also, there is clearly a pattern with me that went unnoticed for years and years, and I had no clue. And I Was making it worse. I was making this attachment wound deeper and deeper and deeper. Every time I went to a man for validation and love and acceptance and to feel good enough, and then they always abandoned me, immediately. Hit it and quit it. Like, no one actually wanted me. They told me I was amazing. They told me I was hot. They told me I sounded like a great girl, that I would be an awesome wife even. And that, like, gave me hope. And then they would leave me immediately. No one was committed to me. Why did no one try to help me with that? Why did no one say, hallie, you are worthy, you are good, you are loved, you deserve an amazing man who's gonna treat you right and not use you and not dump you immediately when they're done with you. Why did no one try to help me? Because every time I went back and did that same pattern, it just hurt me even more. I did it to myself. But if God loves me, and if God is really speaking to the bishop for me, why didn't he tell him I needed help? Why couldn't the bishop, any bishop, anyone, see that I was struggling and sad and insecure and all these broken parts inside of me because my heart was broken, not because I was bad. My heart was broken because of the things I'd been through and no one would help me. This is horrible. And then here I am, so excited to marry someone who finally wants me. And now looking back, it's a little clear what I was doing. It was an attachment wound.

Host [02:29:59] And as a white male, I just want to say I never want any woman ever to feel like their worth is dependent on the approval or the blessing of a white man. And I never want any woman to ever feel like a white man gets to determine their worth and that their authority resides anywhere else than within themselves.

Guest [02:30:22] 100.

Host [02:30:23] Right? Isn't that what everyone needs? Is the very clear message that their power and authority resides within them.

Guest [02:30:31] That's what everyone should hear. That's what every. That's what I needed to hear. I had no idea that I was capable of that. Because, again, I put my faith and trust in the leadership and these people telling me I was good or bad based on if I was wearing clothes that were modest or based on if I was making good decisions, good decisions in quotes. Why didn't anyone tell me that I could love myself and I could validate myself and I could accept myself and I didn't need it from my dad or my mom or any boy. And it definitely doesn't come from my body. But what does the church tell you that your body is bad and hide it and cover it up and don't use your sexuality? And I did the exact opposite. And again, no one told me that that's not actually bad, but that it's a sign of sadness inside of me. I was. But they just make it into something bad. If you use your body sexually, it's just bad, it's just immoral, it's just wrong. Breaking the law of chastity, it's dangerous. Takes you off the path to Jesus. Why did people not tell me that it wasn't bad? And why did no one try to help me? And I wish I would have known that I could have helped myself, but I didn't because I felt like I had to rely on my leaders to tell me if I was good or loved or worthy. I didn't believe it coming from myself and even God. Again with the patriarchal blessing thing. It's like it's contingent upon your faithfulness. Okay, God loves me and he wants to give me all these blessings, but only if I'm good. Only if I do what's right. What's right according to who? According to the prophet who tells me I can't wear two ear piercings. Really? That tells me if I'm good or not. And that's one of those things, like, if you really love God, you will follow his prophet. You will listen to him. So I'll take my second ear piercing out. That's what you have to do. That proves that you're faithful and good. And if you don't do it, it proves that you're selfish and rebellious and you don't really want to follow God. And I just wanted to follow him so that I could have blessings. That's what it was always about for me. Not because I even loved God. I just wanted, like you said, that safety. I wanted the blessings. I want to have security and someone who freaking loves me. Because I didn't feel that from anywhere else, not even God. I saw that he had blessed me in my life, but then he. I also suffered. So I just wanted love and I didn't feel it from anyone.

Host [02:33:09] Thank you for being so vulnerable. And so they kind of break you down that way without giving you real help, make themselves the authority and the power center in your life. And then, and I hate to be negative, but to add insult to injury, they give you a new name inside the temple. And if you look at any, let's just say unhealthy, high demand religion, there's always a new name involved, because you're literally at that point, not you anymore. You've fully assumed an identity they've handed to you. So not only have they sent you these messages of unworthiness, not only have they put themselves between you and God, they, when they literally give you a new name, they're saying you're not you anymore. You are the Mormon woman that we want you to be. And it doesn't have to be harmful and insidious, but if the goal is self healing and self knowledge and self empowerment, you have now just assumed an identity that's fully other, that's fully outside yourself.

Guest [02:34:13] And it's completely contradictory because you tell me I am a child of God, Heavenly Father loves me. And that, you know, the young women seem, was everything to me divine, you know, individual worth and all these things, like, I'm divine, God loves me, I have this worth. I'm his daughter. And yet it's like God is punishing me and God is torturing me and God is taking blessings away from me. It felt like everything else I'd already felt from everyone else. Someone who tells you they love you and they're there for you and you're special and amazing, and then two seconds later they punch you in the face. It's like, oh, is that love? So you love me, but you also hurt me. And that's what God does, apparently. Because if you're not worthy, if you're not making good decisions, he's going to take blessings away and he's going to punish you. You're not going to have the spirit with you. You might not even get your membership in the church anymore. That's our loving Heavenly Father. Yeah, giving and taking. It's like a bait and switch. Do all these things. I'm going to give you love, I'm going to bless you, and then if you screw it up, I'm going to take it away. And I never believed, like, you know, if you believe in God, you're going to have this perfect, happy life. Like, obviously, welcome to mortality and agency. Things happen. Life's not perfect, but that's just a part of life that's not God. And it seemed like that was what God was doing, changing his mind if he loved me or if I was good enough. So.

Host [02:35:46] And what's hard is that when you're going through it, it may feel like the temple may feel like this beautiful, powerful, amazing experience. You don't realize how some of these teachings could have long, medium or long term negative effects to your psychology, to your mental Health to your. To your well being. Because it's. Sometimes it all just feels amazing.

Guest [02:36:08] Yeah.

Host [02:36:09] As it's happening.

Guest [02:36:10] And if you just go based on your feelings, of course, that's the spirit. Spirit's telling you this is good and right and true. But then again, I just had this amazing experience with my initiatory feeling. Perfect and clean and loved. And then two hours later, I'm in the endowment being threatened by Satan that if I don't keep these promises and if I don't do all these things, whoa, watch out. Okay, so again, I'm gonna screw it all up and then God's gonna be mad at me and punish me and I'm gonna go to hell and suffer who knows what type of consequences.

Host [02:36:43] Because you have to make. There's this mo, you know, speaking back to informed consent. And then the Mormon Temple ceremony is a, is a really important example of this. There's this moment at the very beginning where they say, okay, you're about to make some pretty serious promises, which you don't know what they are.

Guest [02:36:56] No clue.

Host [02:36:57] And they say, so if you want to leave now, you can. But do you remember when they, when that moment happened?

Guest [02:37:02] Yeah, right at the beginning, what happens?

Host [02:37:04] You know, like all Mormons.

Guest [02:37:06] Yeah. If any of you do not want to participate or in what happens here this day, raise your hand. And I'm like, is anyone going to raise their hand? Does anyone ever say no? Like, I don't know what's going to happen, so what could I say no to? I've literally no clue what's going to happen. I'm just sitting here like, what?

Host [02:37:21] Yeah.

Guest [02:37:21] Why are you giving me this opportunity? Should I leave? Is that a thing, like an illusion of informed consent, don't you think?

Host [02:37:27] Yeah.

Guest [02:37:27] Like you. Everyone goes to a temple prep class. I have never heard somebody say, wow, that prepared me super well. And I knew exactly what I was going to be promising and what I'd be wearing and doing and who'd be

Host [02:37:35] threatening me, you know, and the commitments you end up making are very, very serious. You know, to give 10% of your income for the rest of your life to. To give your own life if necessary, for the building up and the strengthening of God. Like they're, you know, law of chastity, law of consecration. These are really serious, intense commitments and you're not told ahead of time the commitments you'll be making and you're not given that informed consent. And then like you said, there's a point in the temple ceremony where Satan himself, he's Talking Adam and Eve, but he turns to the audience and looks them in the eye in the movie and says, if every person in this audience does not live up to every covenant that they make in this temple this very day, they will be in my power. You know what I mean? Yeah, right?

Guest [02:38:20] Yeah, it's freaking scary. Sexiest part, Just kidding. Now you don't even know. Like, like you said, you made all these promises and all you're doing is like bowing your head and saying yes. Like, what did I just say yes to? There's so many words and things you're hearing for hours. Like, what did I just hear? What did I just say yes to? You don't even know it. And it's like you just can't even comprehend the words that are being said to you. And I'm like, I have pretty good listening comprehension skills, but that was a lot of information. And one thing's a sign and one thing's a token and which one is which? And like, you have no idea. But then you're threatened that if you don't keep all this and do all this and if you do divulge this, be afraid, be very afraid. And then you're supposed to feel happy about it, like it was good.

Host [02:39:12] And sometimes the Mormon God takes on kind of an abusive personality because it's, I love you, I'm going to punish you. I love you unconditionally. You have to hustle for your worthiness.

Guest [02:39:23] Yes, 100%. It is a works based religion. Gordon B. Hinckley is the one who said, get on your knees and pray, then get on your feet and work. Like, you got to work, you got to do it. You can't just ask God to help you. God's not just going to help you and do everything for you. You got to do it yourself. You got to make it there and give him the credit. I know there's a lot, you know, like Brad Wilcox has this awesome talk or whatever about learning heaven, not earning heaven. And like, there are Mormons who try to teach that. But again, when you think about the temple recommend and all these things that you have to do to get into the temple, like paying tithing alone, it's like, okay, if I need to make it to the top of the celestial kingdom, I have to pay tithing that is a requirement for me to get into heaven. And if I don't do it, Satan is threatening me. So that is works. That is me getting on my feet and working and giving and doing just like the you're promising in the temple, you will do like you said, sacrifice your time, your money, your energy, talents, efforts, whatever, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doesn't say to God. It doesn't say, because you love him and want to honor him. You give because of how much he gives to you. It's. You have to do all this for the church, for the organization, or you will be under Satan's power. It's like the literal wording. Yes, Satan's. Satan will have power over you, and then you're really screwed because then there's no way I can make good decisions and have the Spirit with me and keep my covenants and keep all these commandments. Now there's no way. So I gotta do it, Gotta be exactly obedient. And honestly, when I was in the temple, in the endowment and I heard the part about chastity, I was just sitting there, like, how did that guy go through this? Be threatened by Satan, promise keeps a lot chastity, and sleep with me. Oh, my gosh, that was such a big deal. How do people do that? I don't understand how Mormons who are endowed in the temple have affairs because look at what they just were threatened. That's scary crap. But, you know, it feels good. You get there at the end and you're all happy in this, the celestial room, and everyone's there waiting for you, hugging you and telling you they're so proud of you. And I felt like it was good. I actually kind of had a panic attack in the prayer circle because of the veil being over your face. Freaked me the heck out. I was very claustrophobic, very uncomfortable. And your arm gets tired. Can we just admit. Do not, like. Like, all the blood rushing down your arms. Like, hi, I was falling asleep. Yeah, it's. You have your moment. You know, when you look around, you look over at the men and you're like, what the heck are you wearing? Like, what am I wearing? Why am I doing this? Why are we chanting this?

Host [02:42:13] Does it feel.

Guest [02:42:16] I'm not gonna say it. It's abnormal. But you know what I told myself? God is not of this world. This is a heavenly thing. So of course it doesn't make sense. And my, like, close friend who told me that she was uncomfortable at the temple, I was like, that's because she's looking at it with a worldly mindset. You don't go to the temple and worry about how cute you look. You don't care about what hat you're wearing. Like, you shouldn't be going to the temple and comparing yourself to other people. It's not about how you look. That's the whole point. I bet that's why we wear funny clothes, so that we don't focus on stupid, selfish, materialistic things and we focus on God. Like, I had it all figured out. I knew that this was of God. I knew this was heavenly and higher level that our puny mortal brains can't comprehend it. Of course it feels weird to us. That's because it's so godly. We're so privileged to even be able to connect with God in this holy house of the Lord, the most sacred place on earth. Yeah, I convinced myself of that. So I didn't let myself think it was weird. I'm sitting there in the prayer circle, like, having a panic attack, freaking out because my head is bowed. This thing is like, over my mouth, over my face. I'm like, can I please lift my head up? Can I please. I need air. Like, seriously freaking out. So claustrophobic. And I couldn't do anything, couldn't say anything. I just had to tell myself, this is good. Just keep doing it. Just try to soak it all in. Enjoy it. Yeah, it's of God. You're being closer to God. You're learning about God. There's nothing weird about this.

Host [02:43:43] Yeah.

Guest [02:43:44] I didn't let myself think it was a C U L T. Shove down your intuition. Yeah. Don't think critically. Just have faith. Doubt your doubts. Yeah. I made a lot of those same rationalizations too. And thinking that God's ways are above my ways. And he wants me to humble myself. He wants me to feel weird so that I know that he's of a higher plan, a higher purpose. And I. I will be faithful if I don't question it. So I think I had a lot of those same thoughts.

Host [02:44:10] Yeah. Yeah. And. And if you. If it feels weird, there's something wrong with you. And so in that sense, you're learning to shut down your own intuitions and your own vibes and you're learning to allow the church to define for you what is normal and healthy. And. And I'll just also say part of the reason why we're taking time on this temple experience is if we're talking about undue influence. The Mormon Temple ceremony. The Mormon Temple. The Mormon Temple covenants. The covenant path, as it's called today in Mormonism, is a central. It's almost the axle around which Mormon obedience and Mormon allegiance turns. Because it's the point where you commit for the rest of your life to Give everything to the church, to give 10% of your income for your life to the church and to basically make your life about serving the church. And so fine, if the church is true, if it's really true, and if the church is going to be good for you and your family, then yeah, it's great. But if the church is not true, if you haven't been told everything about it and or if the Mormon lifestyle doesn't end up being good for you or your children or those around you, then you've committed the rest of your life to something that can end up being, making you really unhappy and, or deadly. And that binding force of the temple is kind of where it all really, really starts.

Guest [02:45:37] And the fact that it's required. It's one thing if, like you believe in the church, like you said, it's true, I believe in it. It's good for me. So I want to give, I want to give back, I want to serve. But no, instead I'm forced into callings, forced into tithing, forced into saying, I sustain the prophet and listen to him and all these things.

Host [02:45:59] And the garments, the underwear garments.

Guest [02:46:01] Yep, it's required. You have to wear these garments all the time, 24, 7. I mean, except for a few circumstances. But that's not me saying, I love God, I love Jesus, I love this church. And so I want to sacrifice or do this. This is me being literally required, forced to do those things. If I want to make it to the celestial kingdom, and if I want to make it to the temple, which is a prerequisite to the celestial kingdom, you have to make those promises with God. If you want to be with your family forever. That's the real thing. Your eternal salvation, your eternal family's threatened if you don't do those things. Yeah, it all leads to the temple, to the ceiling, to eternal marriage. So you have to do it all if you want that. And that's the goal. That's everything you're taught and prepared for your entire life as a Mormon.

Host [02:46:49] And until the Mormon Church creates a list of all the things you're going to be promising in the temple, all the things you're going to be doing in the temple, making that available before people go through and allowing them to make a premeditated, conscious decision about what they are going to decide, then it until that point, it's a very coercive, manipulative, and I would argue, abusive thing to put people through, especially when they're 18, 19, 20, 21. And who of us who event or your brain's not even fully formed to your 25. And yet you're making commitments not only for the rest of your life, but for eternity that you didn't know beforehand. And everyone around you is pressuring you to say yes when you weren't informed beforehand to allow you to really think about it and decide for yourself.

Guest [02:47:40] Yeah, you have no clue, but you're told that this is what will bring you the most joy. Eternal joy. Eternal life with your loved ones. You have to do this, and it's what God wants you to do. God created us. Men are that they might have joy. And this is how you have joy. So you have to do all these things if you want real joy.

Host [02:48:01] So how did that go?

Guest [02:48:03] I mean, I was on cloud nine, man.

Host [02:48:05] I got what you wanted. Your temple marriage.

Guest [02:48:08] Freaking miracle. Like, amazing that I had people there in the temple, supporting me, loving me. A week later, I got sealed in the temple, and we both were hysterically sobbing our eyes out the whole time we're at that altar staring at each other just, like, so happy that we made it here and that we found each other.

Host [02:48:28] And

Guest [02:48:31] the really, really sad part about that is my parents, my dad and my stepmom and my mother flew out across the country to be there for my wedding. And it was like I just walked out of a building and said, hi, dad, I'm married now. They had no idea what happened. They didn't get to see me get married or make any sort of vows or promises. And it was just like, as if I ran into him at, you know, the grocery store and said, hey, Dad, I just got married. And I was just so happy that I didn't care, you know, I asked my dad, like, we could do a ring ceremony. You can still walk me down the aisle. We can do all that stuff. And he was like, no, no, no, don't worry about it. Like, you do whatever. Simple and easiest. He didn't make it about him, which was amazing. And I enjoyed it. And I felt. I felt happy. I didn't think about how horrible it was for him and the fact that they not only flew out there for my wedding, but then, like, I'm on my honeymoon right after. It's not like I'm gonna hang out with them the next day after I get married. They come across the country to see

Host [02:49:40] me one day and to not attend the actual event.

Guest [02:49:43] Yeah, yeah. And then our reception is in the Mormon church building, in the cultural hall, in the gym. And my parents have never been in a Mormon church before, and they don't even know what to do. They feel super uncomfortable and awkward there at our wedding with all these people who are Mormon there. And how horrible on like a super happy day for your family. And no one else came, you know, none of my siblings or anything. Why would they. So I just made it about me and CJ and try not to worry about anything else. But again, that's like just that idea of this is worth it. You got to the temple, he got sealed. Doesn't matter that it hurt your family, doesn't matter that your loved ones weren't there. This is worth it. You don't even need to care about how hurtful it might be to them. Because a lot of Mormons theology is about putting off that comfort for the next life when you'll be together with an eternal family, even if it comes at the cost of hurting people who can't even attend your wedding. And being with your family on your very special wedding day, like that's. Everything is kind of put off to the next life. Then you enjoy it. Then that's.

Host [02:50:51] And there's also a very subtle but profound message in that, which is that church is more important than family. When push comes to shove, family's great if they fit into the church's plan for you. But anyone who doesn't fit into the church's plan for you, church is more important than family. I mean, that's the subconscious message. Yeah.

Guest [02:51:11] Unfortunately, that continues throughout my life. That is. Which makes no sense for a church that just preaches. Families can be together forever. And that's the one thing that missionaries try to teach to everyone, is you can be with your family forever. It's really sad that apparently the family doesn't matter. Not really. Unless they do everything that the prophet tells them to do.

Host [02:51:32] Yeah.

Guest [02:51:34] So then I'm living the dream life. Right.

Host [02:51:36] Happiness begins. That's where happiness begins.

Guest [02:51:40] Yeah.

Host [02:51:40] True happiness.

Building a Mormon Family and YouTube Career

Guest [02:51:42] I get pregnant right away because we felt we should. That that was what God wanted for us. And it's a happy life. It's the dream. And then, like, real life hit. I realized my husband had some stuff he was working on. And I'm newly married. I'm pregnant with our first child. And what am I going to do about it? I just loved him and stood by him and believed in him and endured to the end. Right, That's.

Host [02:52:18] So some things that the church. He was doing. Some things the church didn't like.

Guest [02:52:22] Right. Some things he didn't like.

Host [02:52:24] You find that after you were.

Guest [02:52:26] Yeah, yeah.

Host [02:52:27] I didn't tell you that before.

Guest [02:52:28] I knew it was a part of his past.

Host [02:52:30] Okay.

Guest [02:52:31] But I had no clue that it was an issue in the present or anything. And, yeah, it was something that I found out. He didn't come to me and tell me about it, and that was really hard. But, you know, God's involved in the details of our lives, and if we read the Book of Mormon and pray, he'll give us strength. That's what you're told to do. If you read the Book of Mormon, it has power because it is the most true book on earth. And if you do that, you will have the Spirit with you and it will help you to make good decisions. So that's what, what he needed to do, and I was gonna support him in that. So we, like, set an alarm on our phone to go off every night to remind us to read the Book of Mormon because we could not miss that or else we would risk losing the Spirit and him having temptations and not being able to make good decisions. So, you know, you just press on, try to be a perfect Mormon. That issue ruined me because I now felt all this pressure to do everything I could to be a perfect Mormon wife and have a perfect temple like home so that my husband would feel safety and that, that Satan wouldn't be able to tempt him so that he wouldn't mess up. Yeah. So now I'm like, we got to read scriptures, we got to say prayer, we got to do fhe we gotta do. You know, temple nights. We gotta serve in our callings. Like, we can't slack around. We gotta keep the Sabbath day holy. We gotta be exact so that we can be safe. Because I want my family forever. I waited. Went through a lot to get here. Not gonna let anything screw it up.

Host [02:54:16] And, and again, all these. We don't think about this, but so you become fearful that, you know, you're, you're partly responsible for your husband's behavior that the church has deemed unworthy or unclean. Again, this, this, this theme of dirtiness or unworthiness or uncleanliness. But now it's by proxy because you're not just responsible for you, but for your husband as well. And then this is where it gets kind of really insidious. What type of behavior is needed so that you guys can stay on the straight and narrow? All the behavior that strengthens and reinforces the church, paying your tithing, reading the scriptures, which is continually indoctrinating yourself into the church's teachings, serving in your callings, going to church regularly so your life becomes almost welded to and merged with the church and its interests because you're on this hamster wheel of worthiness to make sure that neither of you guys mess up.

Guest [02:55:20] Exactly. And I wasn't going to mess around. Like, there is no gray area for me. We follow with exactness.

Host [02:55:27] Because you would live that life. Right. I'm screwing up, right?

Guest [02:55:30] Yeah. And being kind of a little bit out, you know, being a little bit lenient maybe, or whatever. So now I gotta try to be a perfect Mormon for the sake of my family. My eternal family is at risk if we're not doing everything right. And I can't control my husband, but I sure as heck I'm gonna try. So now we have a baby. And that being a mother changed everything too. It's like, okay, now I have to protect her too, and keep her safe and teach her everything about the church so that she can make good decisions, that she can have eternal happiness. And it's just more pressure, more need for perfection. And then we moved to Portland for my husband to go to chiropractic school, and we're living on student loans. He's. It's like med school. Like, you're gone all day long. You can't have a job at the same time. I have a baby. I'm home with the baby or, like, living on food stamps. I started YouTube because I felt like I needed to share my story about leaving the church and coming back.

Host [02:56:37] Had you already written the book yet or not? No. Okay, so it starts with.

Guest [02:56:40] Starts with YouTube.

Host [02:56:41] And so, yeah, take us to that. That's a. Probably a pretty important point. So, yeah, you know, I always. For me, I have a special place in my heart for social media influencers because I believe silence is the killer. I believe that not talking about issues is what allows problems to perpetuate. And so when people speak up, when they lift their voices, that's when people get educated. That's when people start talking. And so you. But you started out as a social media influencer, but it was for. Was it for the church, Is that right?

Guest [02:57:10] Yeah.

Host [02:57:10] So talk about the decision to step into that arena.

Guest [02:57:13] Okay, so like I mentioned a little bit, like, when I wanted to serve a mission, I kind of started blogging and sharing my spiritual experiences, and I would share them on Instagram. Instagram gave you the ability to do lives. So I would, like, go on there while I'm doing my makeup, hanging out, I'm just, like, talking to whoever my followers are. I probably had like a thousand followers. And I was talking about the story about My ex, who disappeared on me. And then I was starting to talk about how I came back to the church and, like, the disciplinary counsel thing, that whole probation thing, like, that was something people had no idea about. And people wanted to know more about that. Like, hey, how did you get married in the temple after having sex? Like, you didn't even have sex that long before, and then you got married in the temple. And so I just started sharing that story, and I felt so overwhelmingly like people need to hear this. Like, I left the church because I thought it tore families, or I can't even say that without laughing. I thought it tore families apart, but it doesn't. The church is good, and I had it wrong.

Host [02:58:18] This is what you're telling people?

Guest [02:58:19] Yeah. I made this YouTube video talking about how I felt like a hooker. I literally said that in the video, that I was acting like a hooker. I was being disgusting. And I turned it around. I used the atonement. I relied on Jesus Christ, and I got what I wanted. And God does keep his promises, and God does bless us when we do what's right and it's worth it, and it's true. And that video went viral.

Host [02:58:46] How viral?

Guest [02:58:48] Hundreds of thousands of views. Enough to the point that a publishing company saw it and reached out to me because of it.

Host [02:58:56] So why do you think it went viral? I have a theory.

Guest [02:59:00] My first theory is because in that video, I had platinum white bleach blonde hair. I was wearing heavy makeup. I did not look like a Mormon. And people are watching me in this video talk about having sex and not keeping the rules, and yet coming back. And there are people who had been questioning the church at that time. This is 20. This is the very beginning of 2017. People have been questioning the church and looking for answers and hope of, can I believe in this church? Can I reconcile these things? And so people Google leaving the Mormon Church, and my video comes up about leaving it and coming back. I think people could relate to it, and I don't. I think people write off Mormons a lot because they're these perfect, weird weirdos, you know, you can't relate to. But I looked relatable because it looked like a normal human. Yeah, but what's your theory?

Host [02:59:53] Well, everyone. Everyone in the church is on that hamster wheel of worthiness. The truth is, we all think that everybody else is righteous and worthy, and then everybody individually is struggling and suffering. Remember that whole hypocrisy stuff you saw at BYU and elsewhere? Lots of. Lots of Mormons are sinning, are masturbating or looking at porn or having bad thoughts or doing things they shouldn't be doing. And then there's this really important line from the Broadway musical Wicked. The most celebrated are the rehabilitated. You represented hope. You were giving the story of if you, if you're broken, if you're fallen, if you're having doubts, look at me, I'm an example. You can repent. There is a path towards purity, a path towards perfection. You can be fallen and still become redeemed. And how is that not going to, you know, be really appealing to the vast majority of Mormons that are feeling just as unworthy as you were when you were struggling?

Guest [03:00:54] Yeah, that's what I wanted, especially like teenage girls, because there were, I could just imagine girls like me who wanted to get to the temple, who wanted to have her forever family more than anything and felt like, is that in the cards for me? Did I screw that up? Am I too broken? Am I too messed up? And I made that YouTube video and it blew up. And the DMS came flying in from all these girls, teenagers, 19 year old, 20 year old, telling me, like, you have no idea what your video means to me. I was raped. I was sexually assaulted. I felt so unclean and unworthy and dirty and gross. But your video gave me hope that one day I can meet a Mormon boy like you did and get married in the temple. I didn't think I would ever be able to. I didn't think anyone would ever want me. And that was my goal. I wanted people to know that there is hope. And I kept doing it. I made videos about anything and everything relating to the church, about just teaching in general. Like, I felt like I understood the gospel really well. And so even things like the word of wisdom, I really wanted to focus on. The word of wisdom isn't about don't drink and smoke. It's about our bodies are amazing, let's take care of them, let's treat them well, let's be healthy, let's exercise and get good sleep and eat good food and treat your body with respect. And I just wanted people to be like enlightened in the gospel and not live in a just going through the motions or I don't know if it's true or not. Like, I wanted to explain the gospel in a way that people would understand it and that they would feel the spirit and want to follow it. I was trying to be a missionary.

Host [03:02:34] Yeah. Make up for that opportunity. Checkered past, right? Yeah.

Guest [03:02:39] Yeah.

Host [03:02:39] And so you got a book deal.

Guest [03:02:42] Yeah.

Host [03:02:42] Was that later or was that early on?

Guest [03:02:44] No, it's pretty soon after.

Host [03:02:47] How'd that happen?

Guest [03:02:49] I got an email and I get emails pretty often from people just saying, like, I watched your video. Thank you so much, I really appreciate it. So I got this email saying, with the subject saying, like, about your YouTube video or something. I'm like, okay, what is it? And it was from this publishing company, this girl who worked for Cedar Fort Publishing saying, I watched your video. It's been circulating all over on Facebook, on LDS living. Everyone's talking about it, everyone's sharing it. I think your story is amazing. Have you ever thought about writing a book? I was like, no, I talk. I blogged once upon a time. But no, I've never thought about it. And she said, do you think you could. Do you think you could take your story that you talk about in this video and turn it into an actual book? I was like, heck yeah, I can definitely write my story. And so she said, okay, give me like a little draft pick the part of your story that you think is the most that would sell itself basically, and I'll present it to our editors or whatever and we'll see if we can get you a deal. And so she did. I was sitting at the dentist's office when I got the email that they accepted it and that they were going to publish it. And I just went from there. It was like a six month to a year long process of writing and editing and lots of changes and man, that process sucked.

Becoming a Mormon Influencer Online

Host [03:04:15] What year was that?

Guest [03:04:19] 2018.

Host [03:04:20] Okay, hold up, hold up the book. So what's it called?

Guest [03:04:24] Let's see why I left the Mormon Church and came back. You can see I had my super blonde hair then and there I am holding like an original Book of Mormon. Oh, pretty crazy.

Host [03:04:37] Yeah.

Guest [03:04:38] You want me to read the back to you?

Host [03:04:39] Yeah, yeah, sure.

Guest [03:04:40] Okay. See if I can read it while holding it. Hallie Everts has never been a traditional Mormon. After growing up in upstate New York in a non Mormon family, Hallie converted to the church at 15. However, after years of heartbreak and doubts, she lost her faith and left the church altogether. In the months that followed, Hallie found that her increasingly immoral lifestyle was only making her more and more miserable. But through experiencing daily miracles and finding truth in the words of God and his prophets, Hallie was able to turn her life around. And today, her faith is stronger than it ever was before. See through the eyes of a convert as Hallie comes to realize the beauty of God's love, find peace in Christ's atonement and overcome her past to live in her happy forever after. And through your test, and though your testimony may be challenged at times, learn to strengthen your resolve and have faith that what God promises will always become reality. Yeah, intense. You're telling me I'm not allowed to ask her how she feels about any of that right now? Not yet.

Host [03:05:42] Well, we'll get to it. Back to that. We'll come back to that, man. No, but, but I mean, obviously that's super important. And you know, there's so much about that story that you're thinking 2017, 2018, what's happened? Well, the Internet's happened, so like Google's, you know, been rocking the church. Podcasts are rocking the church. The gospel topics essays come out in response to the Sweetest rescue and all the other problems. Mormon stories is rocking the church. Kate Kelly, ordained women and my excommunications rocking the church.

Guest [03:06:12] And I had no idea about any of that. Of course, I was living in a bubble until there would be a few comments on my, on my YouTube videos of people saying like, they would just leave the CES letter link. Yeah, I had no idea about any of this.

Host [03:06:25] But, but, but by 2016, 2017, people, the church is hemorrhaging its members. And so the idea of a non member joining the church, having a faith crisis, but then coming back and regaining your faith and having the sins and then repenting and it's like a, it's like a, A pr. A PR gift made in heaven for the church.

Guest [03:06:48] Yeah. And I had no idea that I was doing that for the church, but I wanted to be right. Like, I want to save those people. I want to help those people. That was my goal for YouTube. I just wanted people to really know the gospel and to love it and to see, see it the way I see it as true and right and good and leading to happiness and that it will save you.

Host [03:07:12] Yeah.

Guest [03:07:13] So the book, it was weird working with a church company because I had to keep it very pg. There were things in my story that I was. Would write and they were like, nope, can't put that in there. Nope, can't say that. And the way they edited it, the way they wanted me to tell my story, I did not like it. Like, I mean, I can't even tell you how many times I had to read this stupid book to edit it. Yeah, I called my own book stupid because it was so frustrating not being able to tell my story the way I wanted to. And I just didn't like the Way they. They changed things. So I was really nervous for it to come out.

Host [03:07:54] Did you feel like it reflected your story at the end, when it was

Guest [03:07:57] at the very end? Yes, I think the end of my book is the most powerful part.

Host [03:08:00] No, no, no. I mean, just overall, was it your story or was it a church's whitewashed, manipulated, contrived version of your story? Was it authentic? You know, do you think?

Guest [03:08:12] Yeah, I would say it was pretty authentic. So it came out April. April 6, 2018. Popular day.

Host [03:08:19] Just three years ago.

Guest [03:08:20] Yeah. And I was scared, but I really wanted it to help people. I even wanted non members to read it because I just wanted people to understand, like, that God loves them and that their sins can be wiped clean and that there's hope. So it kind of flopped.

Host [03:08:41] I would say the book didn't.

Guest [03:08:44] Didn't go very well.

Host [03:08:45] Go well? Didn't sell.

Guest [03:08:47] Yeah, there were a lot of complaints actually about it. I mean, people did love it. There are a lot of young girls who thought it was really helpful and relatable and good. And I think it helped some older people to understand, like the youth. But there were some complaints that it's all about boys. My whole story is about boys. And it's like, well, yeah, when you think about it, that's what the church is entirely about. Getting married. Therefore, you have to date, you have to be with boys to get to the point of getting married in the temple.

Host [03:09:16] Yeah.

Guest [03:09:16] And that is my entire life path was wanting a family, dealing with breakups and heartache and making decisions and finding the right guy so that I could get to the temple. That's what it was all about. Maybe you don't like that it's about boys. Sorry, but that's what my story is. And at this point, there's a gossip website that was started about me where people would just go on and talk about me. And at this point, there are more and more Mormons who are watching me and subscribing to my YouTube channel and following me on Instagram and now reading my book and are picking apart my life. And I also would make videos about marriage and marriage in the church. There's this book called Covenant Hearts that's written by a member of the church. And so I would go through that book and talk about marriage and it relating to the gospel. And so people now are observing me as a Mormon now that I'm having more and more influence. And now that I have a book and they're telling me how bad of a Mormon I am when I'm just trying to put my whole life into

Host [03:10:22] sharing the gospel, Being vulnerable, trying to help the gospel.

Guest [03:10:25] Yes.

Host [03:10:25] And the members are saying, you have a scarlet letter.

Guest [03:10:29] I mean, things as simple as, like, the fact that I would wear a bikini. And they're like, I would never let my teenage daughter follow you. You're a bad example. How dare you. That makes me a bad example, okay? And I'm trying to do good and help people, okay? And people telling me, like, my marriage is bad. Like, my husband's a full time student in chiropractic school, working his butt off for us, we have a little baby and they're telling me he's not a good priesthood holder. You're doing everything, he does nothing. And so it's like drilling this idea into my mind again of that perfect family and that perfect, strong Mormon family of all the things we got to do. And like, I'm trying to do it. I'm trying to do all the perfect things. But he's not right. He's really focused on school. He's not really focusing on showing up the way a perfect priesthood holder should. And so now I'm getting all these doubts put into my head about how good of a husband he is because he's not being a super strong Mormon. And you know, all these things are supposed to do, provide, preside, protect, whatever other things. And people are telling me he's not good at that. And now I'm feeling like, oh my

Host [03:11:43] gosh, how are they knowing enough to judge him?

Guest [03:11:46] Good question.

Host [03:11:46] So is this just part of being in social media? You get attacked?

Guest [03:11:49] Yeah.

Host [03:11:49] You.

Guest [03:11:50] I share a lot of my life, you know, I really do. But of course there are things that I do not show. And I'm not even like a vlogger. Like, I don't bring my camera with me everywhere, showing everything I'm doing every day. My videos are all like sit down talking videos. And so the things that I would talk about in my marriage was again, same thing as my book, same thing as that original YouTube video. I'm sharing the real crap. I'm not going to pretend like I didn't have sex with. I don't even want to say how many people I'm sharing how hard life is and marriage is. Because my goal has always been for people to know they're not alone. If you're having doubts about the church, if you're having, you know, sins and mistakes and whatever crap you're going through in life, you are not alone. And I think that's a problem within the church that I started realizing is Mormons do want to be perfect, and Mormons do want to appear perfect. And if we're supposed to bear one another's burdens and mourn with those that mourn and minister to each other, how can you do that when everyone's pretending everything's fine and dandy and we're all perfect? You never know if someone's suffering. You never know if someone's struggling, because everyone just appears great all the time. So I'm here to tell you, not everything is great all the time. Even when I got my happy ending with my eternal marriage, you know, crap hits the fan. Life is hard. Marriage is hard. And so I would talk about it. Simple things, like just talking about, like, communication and marriage, like, whatever. And people would be like, that's not right that C.J. says that. That's not right that C.J. does that.

Host [03:13:16] And.

Guest [03:13:17] Okay. Because all of their lives are perfect. Right, Exactly. And they have the key to how to have a happy marriage.

Host [03:13:25] Some would argue that's a. That's a reason to stop being a social media personality, that you're inviting that when you put your life on display.

Guest [03:13:33] Oh, that's what everyone says. You asked for this. You put your life out there. You asked for it. Freedom of speech. You put this out there. I can say whatever I want. You say what you want in your video. I can say what I want in the comments. Okay. And you know what? At first, I was so defensive of the church and of my. My marriage, especially because I knew that my marriage was not so great. But I wanted to help people and I wanted my marriage to improve. I was never gonna come out and say, yeah, you guys are right. My life's a mess. Like, I. My goal was to keep fighting, keep trying, endure to the end. This life is about becoming like God. That's what I'm here to do. Learn about God, become like him. That's what I go to the temple for. So I'm not trying to come on my YouTube videos and act like I've got it all figured out and I know the answers to everything. I'm coming on here to say I'm learning along the way. This is what I'm learning. This is what I'm trying. This is what I'm experiencing. And I just. I got angry. I would just delete people, block people. I wouldn't hear it because I couldn't deal with it. I was trying so hard to keep it together and be a perfect Mormon and a perfect wife and support my family, school, was really hard. And I'm. For us, it was like being a single mom and having no money, and yet we have to pay tithing on the little money I do make. And I was told that if you make the sacrifice and even offer a more generous tithe and more generous fast offering, that's the opportunity for more blessings. Don't deny yourself the ability to receive more blessings. So even though we're on food stamps, we have no income besides, you know, I make a couple hundred bucks from YouTube or my book and whatever. I was like, selling makeup, you know, trying to make money, and I got to give it to the church. I promise to do that so that I can have blessings. If I want my husband to be able to overcome his issues, if I want our family to be together forever, if I want to make good decisions, if I want us to stay on that covenant path, I got to keep all these rules, and I got to do it with exact obedience.

Host [03:15:46] And it's a lot of pressure on a Mormon woman.

Guest [03:15:49] Oh, yeah.

Host [03:15:50] And then to have then to be a social media celebrity personality on top of that, that just feels like a

Guest [03:15:56] lot of pressure with everyone watching you. Like, I already have the standard for myself of perfection. I'm a perfectionist. I'm my own worst critic. And now I've got other people criticizing me and telling me how I'm doing it wrong or I'm not good enough or I'm a bad example. And I made a video talking about sex and how my feelings about sex and my ideas about sex have changed. Going from being like a teenager to 20, early 20s, something. My experiences with pornography to now being a married woman, a Mormon married woman in my sexual experience. And I wanted to talk about it because I know there are people who have been through what I have or people who haven't, or people who have horrible sex lives and have no idea about anything with their bodies. And I wanted to be honest and help people. And I got so many people who are like, this is completely inappropriate. This should not be on the Internet, especially relating to your Mormon stuff. If you want to talk about sex, you should have a separate channel to do that. And what's going to happen when your kids look back on this one day and I'm like, I want them to know this. This is for them, too, when they're teenagers. Like, I'm not saying anything I'm ashamed of. I'm trying to help people. But, you know, you can never. You can never win. You can never be perfect enough. But I tried and I Judged others who weren't. So this is when like Instagram starting to get a lot bigger. 2018 and especially getting into 2019 too. Like, I'm getting more and more followers and I started following big LDS bloggers who Amber Filler up. She has over a million followers. She's a member of the church. She grew up in Mesa, Arizona. She lived in Utah. Carol Lauren got married in Salt Lake Temple. There's several other people, gosh, I can't even remember. But there are people who would like, for example, they would post their wedding picture on their anniversary and that being in front of the temple. And I would be like, what? You're Mormon? I had no clue because they're never wearing their garments. They don't ever talk about going to church. If anything, I think I post, I've seen them post about drinking coffee or something. So I'm like, what the heck? I'm sitting here trying to be an influencer, share my book, share my YouTube, share Jesus Christ, share the gospel. I'm trying to do something good. I'm sharing about the hard crap about life and marriage and help people. All these girls are doing is posting about all the 500 jeans they have and trying to make money off that they could do something so good. They're members of the church. They have the true gospel. They have millions of followers and they don't share about it and they don't even follow it. That's a horrible example. So I was judging people hard and getting really frustrated and it didn't make sense to me. I was so black and white in my obedience to the church and the rules that like I would see people post on Instagram how they would leave sacrament meeting and go through the McDonald's drive thru to get a Diet Coke. And I'm like, what the frick? You know that's breaking a Sabbath day. You know you're not supposed to buy stuff on Sunday. Why are you doing that? That's such an easy rule to follow. Or people who watch rated our movies. I'm like, why? Or they go on Instagram and they're talking about Bridgerton. I'm like, that's like porn. Why would you talk about that? You're Mormon. So I'm just like spiraling with all the judgments I have for the Mormons because I'm trying to be a perfect Mormon and share the truth. And all these people are being crappy Mormons and being a bad example. And I had no empathy, no understanding. I was just angry.

Host [03:19:27] Did you ever feel like your, your what you were portraying wasn't. Was kind of a fraud. I know that you. You said that you were trying to be honest and candid and vulnerable. Were there ever poor points where you're like, yeah, we're. I'm creating an image that really doesn't reflect reality?

Guest [03:19:46] No. I felt like I was so honest. The only thing that I wanted to talk about was my husband's issues. That. That's. That was like his story to tell. And it wasn't my place to talk about that. There are other. Plenty of other things I can talk about as far as marriage and the church and whatnot, but I felt like I was really authentic about everything, maybe to a fault. Maybe I was too honest sometimes. And while I wasn't a perfect Mormon, I really tried hard to be and tried to do everything right. I didn't feel like I was lying about that ever.

Tension Between Public Persona and Private Doubts

Host [03:20:21] Was it ever bad for your family, bad for your marriage, bad for your parenting? To always be thinking about my next video, the comments, responding to comments. Is it bad for the marriage and for the family and for your own personal mental health to be a YouTuber?

Guest [03:20:38] It was horrible. My husband could tell you I was a miserable person.

Host [03:20:42] Why?

Guest [03:20:43] I was just consumed with the negative comments and fighting with people and trying to prove them wrong. And I would get on like, LDS moms groups and fight with people there, because I remember one girl was like, I bet Heavenly mother says the F word. I'm like, heavenly mother would never say the F word. And I would just fight with people. Or I'd go on Twitter and I would see what people would say. And I'm like, that is so wrong. And I'm just constantly on my phone fighting with people and defending the church and then getting all these negative comments. There was one person who responded to me who was like, oh, this girl's in my steak. I can go on LDS Tools and find out where she lives. And if she doesn't knock this off, I'm going to go have to teach her a lesson. I was like, you're threatening me right now. Like, this is scary that people are so mad at me. This gossip website, People hate me so much. They're going on this gossip website, they're watching all my YouTube videos, following me on Instagram, and then going on and writing all this stuff about me. It was, like, so devastating. I did not pay attention to my husband. I didn't pay attention to my daughter. I was just in this negative energy constantly. It was bad, real bad. But it was on the name of defending the church standing up for the church. That went on for years. Yeah, I mean, 2018, 2019, 2020. I mean, it's still going. Still going.

Host [03:22:02] So did you ever think about quitting? Did you ever seriously consider quitting?

Guest [03:22:06] I did at one point, for safety reasons. I had a state inspector come knock on my door and say that someone called the state anonymously, that I am being fraudulent, that I'm making money from a book. I'm making money from YouTube, I'm making money from all these places, and I don't deserve government assistance. And so the government had to investigate

Host [03:22:28] us because you're on food stamps.

Guest [03:22:30] Yeah.

Host [03:22:30] Oh.

Guest [03:22:31] And that was crazy. And it just freaked me out because, like, who the heck called? How would they even know where to call? It just was scary. I didn't know who would have my address or who would do what. If someone's willing to do that, to literally go out of their way to call the government, what else would they be willing to do? Like, it scared the heck out of me. So I was also pregnant at the time with our second child. So I'm, like, super hormonal, scared for my life, even. Like, I just didn't know what people were capable of if they hated me this much. So I stopped making YouTube videos, deleted everyone off my Instagram, went private, and I shut it down for, like, six months, which sucked because I lost income. And I was a completely different person. I was so happy. My husband was like, oh, this is nice. I don't have to hear you complaining about all these stupid people anymore, because what they say doesn't matter. Don't listen to them. But, you know, I still listen to them. And he didn't take it personally, but I did. He didn't even care that they were attacking him. I did.

Host [03:23:36] So you were happier?

Guest [03:23:38] Way happier. But I had a message to share. Like, I had to come back. I felt like it was safe that I could be more careful about what I posted and what I said and, you know, not talk about finances at all. The only reason why I had even told anyone on the Internet that I was on food stamps was because I made videos about how to budget our food stamp money to still eat, like, an organic, healthy diet. I was trying to help people to be healthy, so.

Host [03:24:07] But if you're happy, why get back into it? Is it because it's alluring? Is it because it's hard to do?

Guest [03:24:12] I have a message to share, John.

Host [03:24:14] Yeah, but is it because you. Is it.

Guest [03:24:15] But is it also allegiance to the church?

Host [03:24:16] Is it also because you missed it because you liked it. I'll say you liked the tension or you liked having a purpose or you liked being creative or liked having a platform.

Guest [03:24:26] All of the above. It's super validating to be on the Internet and have people tell you, you know, you're awesome, and thank you. Like, if I could show you, like, the hundreds and maybe even thousands of dms that I've gotten from people saying, like, I joined the church because of you, or I went back to church because of you, or your videos about the repentance process gave me the strength to go meet with my bishop and repent. And, I mean, it's just so worth it. And then also, of course, it feels good to get the likes and the followers and the money and whatever. And it's fun. It is creative. It's fun to share my life.

Host [03:25:00] And when you say money, people might think getting rich.

Guest [03:25:04] Oh, no. But, you know, we were in school, we had no money, so a hundred dollars a month even is something.

Host [03:25:09] Yeah.

Guest [03:25:10] That helps buy diapers, you know.

Host [03:25:11] Right.

Guest [03:25:12] And you had, like, a passion and a love for the church. Right. But it sounds like you didn't get that through, like, your ward callings and your actual interpersonal relationships at church. I got nothing from church.

Host [03:25:24] What?

Guest [03:25:24] Nothing.

Host [03:25:25] Live in the Mormon dream.

Guest [03:25:27] I hated church.

Host [03:25:28] Why?

Guest [03:25:29] I had not had a single good church experience after I left the singles ward. Wow. Nothing.

Host [03:25:34] What was wrong with church?

Guest [03:25:36] I never had any calling I wanted. I begged to be put in. Young women's never. The sacrament meeting talk sucked. The lessons sucked. Sunday school sucked. Relief society sucked. I never felt the spirit. The only time I would feel the spirit is when I. I really wanted to share something. And so I would always make comments and I would always try to stand up for a different perspective and almost challenged teachers a little bit, almost challenged their lessons a little bit. Because I knew that there were probably people sitting there who were like, I don't know about that. And I was like, I'm going to be the one to speak up. That's who I am. And that's the only time that I felt the spirit. I felt powerful and like, I was helping to invite the spirit and teach people. That's what I do. I talk about the gospel. I teach people. I help people. And I didn't serve in any good calling. I served in primary for a little bit as a primary teacher. That was very difficult and not very fun.

Host [03:26:35] And

Guest [03:26:37] I don't even know what other callings I had besides. I feel like I didn't even have Any. I think I was a Relief Society teacher when we first got married, and I taught once a month,

Host [03:26:46] but I

Guest [03:26:46] felt like I did nothing. Did the people in your ward, were they all aware of, like, your YouTube presence and what you're doing there, or. No one knew. Oh, okay. No one cared. I would get up and bear my testimony or I would give a talk and I would try to help people and, like, talk about what I do. Literally no one cared. So I felt completely pointless or useless in the church. But I had a place on YouTube, so that was motivating for me. Like, that's my place. Literally. I felt the spirit way more filming YouTube videos than I ever did going to church.

Host [03:27:20] And I just have to note the irony that it's not like your experience with the church had been amazing before your marriage. Like, you had lived the Mormon dream and gotten beat up for it. Gotten. You were shamed, you were judged. You were constantly feeling unworthy, it wasn't working out for you. Disciplined, all that. Some would say that was potentially even psychologically abusive for you to have gone through all that. Then you get married, and then you continue to have a really unpleasant, unfulfilled experience in church. And you're one of the church's most vocal spokespeople, encouraging people to join and or love the gospel. So how is it that a kind of the. The victim becomes the spokesperson for the abuser? Psychologically, how does that happen?

Guest [03:28:16] It makes no sense. And you would think that if God was really leading this church and wanting to use me to help the church, why can't he put me in a calling that matters? Why can't he tell the bishop or the relief society president or the young women's president or someone to use me? That's what I want to do. That's what I'm trying to do with my YouTube channel, but that's all me working it on my own. It's not because anyone told me to, or I just. Yeah, I don't. It doesn't make sense why I would be there teaching the church, defending the church, when even going to church sucks. Is this something that your YouTube audience knew about you and your personal ward life, that you weren't having, like, fulfilling callings, and that's why you were reaching out and sharing your story that way? People would ask me on occasion, like, what's your calling in your ward? And what do you. Do you enjoy your war? Tell me, what's it. What is it like to go to church in Vancouver? And I always told them, like, I Don't have a calling, or I don't do anything in my calling, or my word's not so great. And I think my husband would not give that same idea because there would be times where there were, you know, good people who would give a. A good talk every now and then where you'd be like, that was good. But it was very few and far between. And I did have followers on occasion who would ask me, like, why don't I feel the spirit ever? Why don't I feel the spirit when I go to church? What can I do? And I made a YouTube video all about it, saying, you got to take matters into your own hands. It's up to you to read conference talks or study your scriptures or do something to help you feel the spirit at home, because you can't run on empty. Right. Like, we're supposed to feast upon the gospel on Jesus Christ. He is the living. He's the bread of life, the living water, whatever. Like, he's supposed to be the one who nourishes us. That's what the gospel is supposed to do. So if you go to church and you don't feel nourished, you got to nourish yourself. And then the church came out with, come follow me. And that seemed like a godsend for people to nourish themselves. But. Yeah. Isn't that really funny?

Host [03:30:30] It's interesting. What? Sometimes there's, like, Kara Fox, like, the tattooed.

Guest [03:30:36] Oh, Al Fox.

Host [03:30:37] Yeah, Fox. Is there a Cara somewhere in there? Like, is that her middle name?

Guest [03:30:42] Al Caraway.

Host [03:30:43] Okay. Caraway. Okay. Sometimes the church reaches out to social media influencers and even kind of incorporates them into their, Like, I don't know, is it the time for women, like, thriving.

Guest [03:30:54] Timeout for women.

Host [03:30:55] Time out for women. Or did you ever feel that there were any messages from the church that they were valuing your YouTube stuff, reaching out to you, looking for partnerships? Like, Chelsea Homer came on, and they reached out to her after she did that Instagram post and then wanted to post that on, you know, church's magazine or whatever. Any. Any of that. Any of that type of message from the church.

Guest [03:31:16] Nothing.

Host [03:31:17] Did you want that?

Guest [03:31:18] I would have loved that. It would have been my dream to, like, be in the Ensign and share my story.

Host [03:31:22] Yeah.

Guest [03:31:23] And reach more people. I would have loved the church to ever acknowledge I existed.

Host [03:31:29] Never happened.

Guest [03:31:30] No, Never. Not. Not even a tiny thing. I actually tried when my book came out. You know, you have to market yourself. And I tried reaching out to. What were they at the time? Three Mormons.

Host [03:31:44] Yeah.

Guest [03:31:44] And high five or something. Anyway, there were a couple of groups that were like, pretty big, I would say, sharing church stuff. And I reached out to them and was hoping to share, like, my story and hoping that they would market my book for me and no one wanted to.

Host [03:32:01] Do you have any idea why? Any theories?

Guest [03:32:06] I just think I don't fit the Mormon mold. That even though I was like doing all the right things and I'm sharing the gospel, I just don't, like, look the part. I don't act the part. I'm loud and obnoxious and I tell the truth about sex and crap. That's hard and that's not wrapped up in a nice, pretty bow.

Host [03:32:26] Do you have a theory, Kara?

Guest [03:32:28] I think she is spot on. I have nothing to add. Yeah, nice. I think crushed it. Yeah. Going back to the way she talked about dating at byu, I can, I grew up in Provo, so I can kind of see the East Coast. I also grew up on the east coast too, so I moved to Provo. And so a lot of the dynamics that you're talking about can kind of, I don't know, whiplash. Whiplash. I mean, some of the, like, people who are used to the Mormon mold, so I can see that. Yeah. I also think this is me being a little rebellious. I think that if there are good Mormons, like let's say Utah Mormons who follow me and watch my videos, that I almost give them permission to not be in that box, not be in that mold. Like, oh, it's okay for me to talk like this. It's okay for me to look like this. It's okay for me to even like sex and not think of it as being bad. Because I talked about that and about liking sex. Yeah, I, I remember so clearly. One time I posted a picture of my husband shirtless and I was like, can I just say how grateful I am to be able to be married and have sex whenever I want with someone who I love? Marriage is great. And someone screenshotted that, went into an LDS wives group and said, this is disgusting. I can't believe someone would flaunt about having sex with their husband. I'm like, what? Yeah, it's appalling. Yeah. So, so horrible. I thought it was a good thing saying, like, married sex is great. You guys enjoy that and look forward to that. I thought that was a good message. But people don't want to hear that. And I think when it's a self efficacy thing, when we see others doing stuff, it makes us think we can do it, too. And I think that people seeing what I did would have been an. A negative thing in the church's mind, that they don't want people to act like me and do what I do and say what I do.

Host [03:34:22] Too independent to empowered, maybe thinking for myself.

Guest [03:34:26] Even though I was teaching the gospel, I was thinking about it and interpreting it in, like, a modern way instead of. I don't know how to explain it. I just think that I brought this, like, modern twist to Mormonism and talked about things that they wouldn't want you to and put this even attitude into it that they don't. Also, be honest. A lot of people are bored and looking for things to nitpick and complain. So, like, it doesn't surprise me that somebody who's a convert who doesn't always fit the mold, that they're just, you know, kind of people out there who are. They're bored on their phones and they have something to say, and they're gonna start a little gossip circle on a Mormon mom's Facebook page. That's sometimes what people do. And hopefully don't take it too personal, but.

When the Mormon Dream Starts to Unravel

Host [03:35:18] So I'm curious, kind of how when the Mormon dream really starts to unravel, or if there's anything else in your story you want to share before we get to that.

Guest [03:35:35] No. I think throughout that time, my marriage was just kind of suffering more and more because I just wanted us to be perfect and to be happy and to be okay. And more and more, I was becoming discontent with my marriage and my husband

Host [03:35:51] because he wasn't able to work through the stuff you mentioned in the beginning or other stuff.

Guest [03:35:56] Both. Just this idea of, like, you need to be this. This father. Like, what does a Mormon dad look like on Saturdays? He's playing with his kids, he's helping out around the house. He's doing projects, he's serving and his calling. He's helping people move. He's doing his ministering. My husband didn't do any of that. It was me who was the one who was always reminding us to read scriptures and say prayer and do fag. And even just like, a year ago, I said to him, you know, we've. We've missed reading our scriptures the past, like, three nights, if I don't remind us. Can you please do that? I really don't want to have to have it be on me. And he freaked out. I was like, why do I have to do it? Why do you even say that? You have the weight on your shoulders. Why is it even a weight on your Shoulders. Why is it a big deal if we miss it? I'm like, because we need to read the Scriptures. That's why it's a big deal if we miss it. I'm not saying we're horrible sinners. I'm just saying it's always on me to remind us to do all these things that are really important. And CJ would always say to me, the Gospel is simple, you are complicating it. You're being a Jew about it. He would always say to me, whoa.

Host [03:37:01] Cuz the Jews like a Pharisee Sadducee. Legalistic.

Guest [03:37:06] Exactly. And I'm like, this is what the church has asked us to do. The church tells us to do these things. I'm not making it complicated. I'm not coming up with these ideas on my own. I'm literally just following the prophet and apostles. I'm listening to General Conference, I'm listening to what the Church teaches us. And I have still this eternal marriage student manual from one of my BYU classes that's basically like a Mormon marriage encyclopedia. You can look up any single topic having to do with marriage, parenting, life even, basically. And it gives you conference talks and scriptures and quotes from prophets and apostles about loose leaf, like something you put in a binder. I had that too. Terrible advice. And I just like clung to that for everything. Like, you know, I got my degree studying marriage and family life. That's what I ended up studying at byu. And I wanted to do everything I could to be a perfect wife and have a perfect happy Mormon family. And my husband wasn't meeting me there. It's like I thought I was supposed to be the help meet and that I was just supposed to help him. Why isn't he helping me at all? Why isn't he doing anything? And I just like resented him. And it. We should have been happy that like school was coming to an end and we were going to be able to move back to Arizona and you know, life would be good to be back around family and friends and whatnot. But I just felt like so much negativity in my life, wanting to be perfect, trying so hard, not being happy. And it didn't make sense. Because if the church is true and if the church makes you happy and you're doing all these things, bring you happiness, why am I so discontent?

Host [03:38:57] So you now were years into years and two kids, right? Two kids many years into living the Mormon dream. Finally you got it. And righteousness was supposed to be happiness. And what were you, what were you experiencing?

Guest [03:39:15] Just unhappy like, there's no reason for it, except I wasn't fulfilled at church, wasn't getting anything out of there, wasn't really getting anything out of my marriage. And I'm thinking, like, I want to have more kids, I want to have more babies. That will make me happy, that will make me fulfilled. That's the right thing to do. And my husband's like, I don't want another baby. We've got two kids, we got one of each. We're good. And I'm just like, no, no, no, we have to fulfill this Mormon life. We have to do these things. And then it was like, covet happened. That's. Yeah, that's probably where, where we're going. And church shuts down and temple shut down and now there is nowhere to turn for feasting on the gospel and being uplifted and. Oh, Covid was hard when that brought out a lot of stuff. My marriage crumbled during quarantine and breakdown. I just.

Host [03:40:20] You're two just in each other's face all the time or you just.

Guest [03:40:25] I just literally was not happy. Like, I was just looking at all these negative things of what I didn't want. And this isn't, this isn't the life I wanted. Like, I was supposed to have this good Mormon guy who taught me the gospel and led me and helped me like he did when we first met and who helped me to be good and helped me to be safe. And now I feel like he does nothing and it's all on me and is miserable.

Host [03:40:54] You kind of had this perception of what the righteous Mormon priesthood holder man would be in terms of a husband, a spiritual leader in the home, a husband to the kids, and he's just trying to get through grad school and focusing on that and maybe too exhausted. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I mean, you had this idea of what the Mormon priesthood holder faithful should be and he just wasn't living up to it and you were getting exhausted trying to pull the weight.

Guest [03:41:20] Yeah, especially now that we're done with school. He's graduated, he's a doctor now. We bought a house, we built a brand new house. We're back in Arizona. The dream has been achieved and I'm just like, I don't. I don't feel it. And I wanted to. And that's why I was like, I want another baby. I want to.

Host [03:41:39] Like, that might fix it.

Guest [03:41:40] Yeah, that will at least make me happy and at least make me feel close to you and it will bring some joy and something we can, like, connect on. And, yeah, my brain started going elsewhere and it was rough. Yeah, 2020 was really rough for our marriage. And again, that endure to the end. Just forgive, choose your love and love your choice. That was what I had to do. And I wasn't going to screw up my family, even though I was very tempted to and wanted to and almost did. I almost left my husband, but I didn't. And then we started going to therapy and things were getting better and we were connecting, we were communicating, and he was helping out more and, like, things were getting so much better. And he said he wanted to have another baby. And it was like, yes, finally we're doing good things. We were, like, on top of doing fag and scripture study and prayer every night. Like, he was finally helping me, putting the kids to bed and doing family prayer and scripture study, and we were, like, back on track. And, yeah, things were really good. The beginning of, like, 2021, when this year first started. And then. Then this new thing happened and. Yeah. Okay, you ready to hear about what happened?

Host [03:43:11] Yeah, I'm dying to hear.

Discovering Others Leaving and Questioning the Church

Guest [03:43:12] Okay, so Amber Filler up, the blogger I mentioned, she posted a blog post about her church experience because people have always been dying to know, amber, why do you not wear garments? Amber, why do you not go to church on Sunday? Why do you do this or why do you do that? Don't Mormons believe this and that? And so she was like, I'm just gonna put it all out there. So she made this blog post talking about her experience in the church with, exactly, like you said, getting the sacrament taken away from you and how humiliating and shameful that is. Especially like, she described being in the pew with her siblings and, like, brothers or sisters or whatever, looking at her like, what? Why isn't she taking the sacrament? And her experience with repenting and with going to the temple and getting garments and how she. It never felt comfortable to her and she never wanted to wear them, and it just didn't feel like it was her. And just all of her experiences with the church, which were all negative. So I'm sitting here as a defender of the church, trying to be a good example of the church still and always. And she has millions of followers and she's coming on here and bashing the church. I was pissed. I was livid hearing her use her influence for bad. So I made a YouTube video.

Host [03:44:37] What was she saying? What was she saying? Why was she saying just that?

Guest [03:44:41] Like, yeah, the. The shaming of not taking the sacrament of church leaders telling her, you know, she was dressing immodestly.

Host [03:44:50] Wasn't faith crisis stuff?

Guest [03:44:52] No, not at all.

Host [03:44:52] Reasons for doubt? It was.

Guest [03:44:53] No, it was just like, this is how I feel about the church, and this is kind of how I make it work for me. And I was like, that's so annoying. Like, you're a pick and choose Mormon. You say you believe it and yet you don't follow it, which makes no sense, because if you actually believe it's the one true church restored and this is Jesus Christ's church, and that these prophets are really prophets and apostles, you would follow them. You would do what they tell you to do. You would keep the word of wisdom. You would keep the Sabbath day holy. You would wear your garments. And I had gotten a bit better. Remember I said I was so angry at influencers for not using their platform and stuff. I had gotten a bit better at not judging people. Like, I started kind of softening my heart a little bit and realizing that maybe they just really don't have a testimony of it. Like, if they really had a testimony of garments, they would wear them. And if they don't, it's probably because they don't care about it because they don't really know what it means, or they don't really believe in them, and that's okay. Like, we're all on our own journey. They don't need to have a testimony of garments that's on them. So, like, I would try to become less judgmental and, like, give people the space to believe and live the gospel how they want to. But when you're, like, making this blog post, sharing these negative things about the church really upset me. And I saw all these other big bloggers commenting on it and saying, yes, thank you. Yes, so true. Yes, that's how I feel. And I started noticing these other Mormon bloggers who are, like, getting tattoos and all this, never wearing their garments. I'm like, what is going on? I had no clue there was a movement going on of people leaving the church and no idea. And I had previously, like, read the gospel topic essays made. I read the saints books. I made a YouTube video talking about church history in 2019 and telling people, you know, not to worry about it. And I didn't. I just. I didn't know that people were leaving the church because of anything. I thought that people left the church. Like, my husband's brother left the church, and I thought it was because people just wanted to sin. Like, all these people, if they're, like, cheering Amber on, like, yeah, I feel the same way I don't wear my garments anymore. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, just because they're. They're lazy, they're selfish. They just want to wear cute clothes. I would see these, you know, bloggers and influencers go on vacation, go to, like, Hawaii or Mexico, and they're not wearing their garments at all the whole time. Like, if you're done at the beach, just put your garments back on. When you go out to dinner, why are you wearing an immodest dress that's not garment friendly? And was any part of that jealousy? Because I. If I did that, I think it's because I was jealous that they were. Heck yeah. I wish I could wear those cute clothes. Of course I wish I could wear those off the shoulder sweaters. Yeah, of course. I. I was jealous and I was pissed because I'm like, I'm doing it. I live in freaking Arizona. It's 100 degrees. I can do it. You can do it. Come on. So I just felt like people didn't follow the rules because they wanted to sin, right? That's why people leave the church, because they just are selfish and lazy. They don't want to follow the rules. They probably don't even have a testimony of it to begin with. Or maybe they were offended because I would hear that. I would. I would even get DMS from people that would say, like, my Relief Society president said, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, who gives a crap? I made YouTube videos about that saying, like, we don't go to church for the people. Believe me, I hate going to church. I get nothing out of it. It's a nightmare to bring my kids to church, keep them quiet, make them reverent, get ready to go in the morning. And I'm tired and I wish I could sleep in, But I go because I want to show God that I love him and I want to worship him and I want to take the sacrament. If that's the most important thing we do in the week, I'm gonna do it because God asked me to. I'm gonna be obedient to him. That's what it's about. You don't stop going to church because someone said something that offended you or annoyed you. So I just always assumed, like, people just want to sin. People are just being lazy. People are just making it about them when it's not about them. And I have YouTube videos about, you know, being control of your thoughts and just choose not to think those thoughts instead of focusing on the annoying things about church or the Stupid things people do. You're in control of your thoughts, and you get to decide how you feel about it. You don't have to be offended. So I just wanted to, like, debunk everyone's issues for leaving the church or not following the rules. But when I read Amber's blog post, something happened in me. When I immediately felt really defensive and angry and annoyed. It was like, almost instantly that all melted away. And I all of a sudden had so much empathy for her and was like, whoa. I actually feel really bad that that was her experience and that she's been hurt and felt shamed and humiliated and like, she wasn't good enough. And, you know, let's say she made out with a boy in high school or maybe did a little bit more than make out, and she felt like people told her she was dirty and bad for doing something that was normal. Like, that's not cool. That's not right.

Host [03:49:57] You of all people should have been able to relate to that.

Guest [03:50:00] So I did. I started to have some empathy for her. And when I realized all these other people who had probably very similar experiences, I was like, dang, there are a lot of people who are out there hurting because of the church. I didn't know that. And then I was talking to my, like, childhood best friend, the one whose brother baptized me because she married a convert to the church, and they haven't gotten sealed in the temple yet. And people were like, coming at her saying, you guys better hurry up and get sealed in the temple. You know, you're not going to be with your family forever unless you get sealed. You better go to get to the temple. And they were, like, threatening her, and she was like, this is messed up. I don't like that. People are treating me like I'm going to hell if I don't get married in the temple. And, like, my family's doomed. And I was like, yeah, that's not even doctrine. Like, the church teaches that. Well, you have the chance in the millennium. Like, why are people even acting like that? That's so messed up. You know, what else is messed up? And then my mind kind of started unraveling, and I was like, I actually really hate the things that people teach in the church. I actually hate it. And then I have a friend who had left the church, and I texted her, and I was like, you know, the church is really messed up. Like, I just. Something switched in my head, and I was just looking at all the negative things because, you know, before I had been telling myself, look for the positive don't make it about you. You're in control of your emotions. You don't have to look at it in this way. And for some reason, I finally was like, I'm gonna look at it this way, because being a mom, like, I want to protect my kids. And I. I remember what it was like being a primary teacher, and I remember this lesson in primary and during sharing time was about the word of wisdom. And they went on and on and on about caffeine, like, that's not part of the word wisdom, or else all these freaking Mormon moms wouldn't be addicted to their Diet Coke. Come on. Caffeine is not part of the word of wisdom. So now if I want to teach my kids what's right, I'm going to have to be a psycho helicopter parent and try to sit in with them on every primary lesson, every young women's lesson, ask them what they learned, make sure that I teach them the correct thing, because I don't want them to go to church, learn the wrong thing, and then come home and I have to rewire their brain and tell them that's not true. Well, if it's not true, why did my bishop say it? Or why did my young women's president say it? Can't I trust them? Why would they teach me something that's not true? Then I have to deal with that whole can of worms. I'm like, oh, my gosh. I would rather just not send my kids to church. I'd rather not. I would rather just teach them the gospel at home and not risk someone else messing with them. Was this during COVID that you had this realization as well when church was shut down? Yes. Convenient. Mm. Yeah.

Host [03:52:43] And this is just in the past few months, isn't it? Yeah, just this year.

Guest [03:52:47] Yeah. So I'm texting my friend all this, and she was like, hallie, you believe in the church. Like, you're not really gonna not take your kids to church. Like, you love the church. It's your life. I was like, I don't know. I don't even want to go. I get nothing out of it. What's the point of going? Especially right now when you can't sing? You can't do anything. You can't even talk to each other. Like, how long is this going to go on? The temple's closed. I can't even go to the one place that everything is about. The temple is what it's all about, and I can't even go there. Why? Why am I doing this? And she was like, okay, give me your list of everything you have a problem with in the church. I was like, all right, I can make that list for you. And I just, like, was thinking more and more and more, I'm like, oh, yeah, this doesn't make sense either. Oh, yeah, this is messed up, too. And then she said to me, well, you know it's not true anyway, right? Like, you know the Book of Mormon's not true. And I was like, no, it is. And I can read you what I said. I have a. I have these screenshots saved, so I can. I can tell you. I said, I know the right answers. I know how to talk myself out of all of it. But is it the right thing to do? That's where I'm at. Am I actually supposed to doubt my doubts? Because these don't feel like doubts. These feel like facts. And she told me about the CES letter, and I had no desire to read it because I still was like, you know, the Book of Mormon's true, but I don't know, I just wanted. I guess I just wanted to know. She said that there were. The Book of Mormon isn't true, that the Book of Mormon was copied. And I think there's like a chart on the CES letter that shows, like, view of the Hebrew view of the Hebrews next to the Book of Mormon. It shows the similarities. And so she had sent me a screenshot of that chart and I was like, okay, she says the Book of Mormon is plagiarized. I've never heard any of this. I have never heard any. Any anti Mormon literature at all. So I had no clue what I was going to read or find out.

Host [03:55:09] And just for our listeners, just. Just so that no one accuses anyone of not being accurate, there's really no one legitimate that claims the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from the View of the Hebrews. And I just did it. Ironically, I just did a tick tock about this on my. My tick tock channel. But View of the Hebrews was published seven years before Joseph Smith published the Book of Mormon. It was published in Oliver Cowdery's hometown by the preacher of the church Oliver Cowdery went to. And what we learn is that B.H. roberts, one of the general authorities in the early 20th century Mormonism, became aware of this book, View of the Hebrews, and wrote hundreds and hundreds of pages of parallels between the two books, not necessarily as a plagiarism, but is laying out the structural narrative that ends up in the Book of Mormon. So it's, it's a book about, you know, members of the lost ten tribes of Israel or whatever who then migrate to America. And so the view of the Hebrews has ancient America being populated by Jews, not by Asians that come over the Bering Strait necessarily, but it's Jews coming over through the Bering Strait. But then it's got, you know, the group dividing into a righteous group and a less righteous group, the wicked group, ends up killing off the righteous group. Does that sound familiar? And then of course, there's a great white God that visits. It's not Jesus per se, but it could be viewed metaphorically as, as Jesus. And, and you know, it basically just claimed. And it basically claims that the Native Americans were Hebrew and that they spoke. Originally spoke Hebrew. And it just lays out a narrative structure that just too conveniently see. It even has a guy on a wall preaching like, like Samuel the Lamanite. So, so it's just like, wow. And it quotes multiple chapters of Isaiah verbatim. And so it's just like, is that too much of A. And even B H. Roberts felt it was kind of devastating to Joseph Smith's claim because there was just too many structural components shared between view of the Hebrews in the Book of Mormon. And I, I just, I explain that to the people. I have no idea what, what we're talking about here. The claim isn't plagiarism. It's just too many similarities to a book published. Too many, you know, just a few years before in the hometown of the guy that ends up being the scribe of the Book of Mormon by his preacher too. Too many similarities. Right?

Guest [03:57:53] Yeah.

Host [03:57:53] That's what CS Letter talks about. That.

Guest [03:57:55] Yes. So I just dove in. I was like, I'm gonna give it,

Host [03:58:00] I'm gonna read this to the CS Letter. Yeah.

Guest [03:58:03] And I had already made my list of issues, which are all cultural issues. Things like, oh yeah, I can read it to you.

Host [03:58:11] Okay.

Guest [03:58:15] Taking the sacrament with the wrong hand. Yeah, Seriously. So the first one I put up there was modesty. Like, what about people who just have really long legs? What about girls who are just larger chested? Is that their fault? And should you ever make a comment about someone's clothing being too short or whatever and how it affects boys, like it's, it's the girl's fault and that her body is being sexualized in a negative way, when actually your body being sexual is a good thing and not wrong. Okay, next thing. Baptism interview. Why is chastity asked in a baptism interview for 8 year olds? Why? That makes no sense. And about praying. Like, what, where, how? Or sorry, prying into these issues. Like, okay, if you did it, what, where, how many times?

Host [03:59:04] Like, sexually explicit questions to young. To women and men and.

Guest [03:59:09] Yeah, just any. These interviews in general, like, worthiness interviews. Yeah. Not. Not right. And it makes people feel like dirt, and it focuses on your mistakes, and that's not what the goal of repentance is. And it doesn't teach anything about unconditional love and worth or grace. Right. If you believe in Jesus and that you're God's child of divine worth, you know, there's this whole thing of, like, worth versus worthiness. And I feel like things are only focused on worthiness, never your infinite pure worth. So I have an issue with that. Gender roles. The head of the household in the priesthood telling boys and girls what they should be and should do. Like, well, a good priesthood holder does this and a good wife does that. And I just. That's up for each couple to decide. It's up for each family to decide what. Who does what. And that felt wrong to me. Too much faith and trust in apostles believing everything they say and every policy. And that goes back to the whole, like, 2015 thing about the children of LGBT parents.

Host [04:00:16] And like, those year you got married that that policy was released, like, a month or two after you were married.

Guest [04:00:21] I remember it, and I bought into it 100%.

Host [04:00:25] Yeah.

Guest [04:00:25] Coming from a child who has parents who aren't members of the church. You know, my dad and my stepmom. Anyway, knowing what it would be like to have to denounce them and turn my back against them. What? Like, that's horrible. You shouldn't put kids in that position. So, yeah, I think it makes sense what the church did.

Host [04:00:39] At the time you felt that way, but then later you started feeling what?

Guest [04:00:43] Feeling like, why do people just agree with everything the prophets and apostles do? I didn't even realize how much they change their tune yet. So people just. Just listen to them and put their faith in them and not in Jesus. They put it in the. The apostles. Had you spoken out publicly in 2015 at an. That was before your YouTube channel. Sorry.

Host [04:01:01] She was for the policy.

Guest [04:01:03] I was for the policy. But I mean, like, had you spoken out in favor of the policy whatsoever, like, on your platforms? No, I don't think I said anything publicly about it. I think I maybe would have posted about. On Instagram or something like that. I understood it, but I don't think I really said anything about it. Yeah, that's a. Okay. My next thing is, why do we fear God and Jesus? Why do we fear eternity? All these what ifs? I'm so afraid that I'm not gonna make it to the celestial kingdom. So afraid I'm not gonna be with my family together, and nothing set in stone. You do all these things your entire life. You pay all this money, you go through all these actions, go on a mission, go to the temple, do all this stuff without even a guarantee that you're gonna make it, that you're gonna get what you're promised. You don't even actually know. It's all just a bunch of what ifs and all the shame and fear that you have if you make mistakes. Another issue I had was the incorrect teaching of doctrine. And this ties into leadership. Like, the prophet could come out in general conference and just, like, squash so many of these stupid cultural things. Like, I got into an argument with someone about whether you should wear your bra over. Under your garments. And I'm like, no. I've talked to several people that work in the temple, and they say it's fine, whatever you want to do. And she was like, no, your bra has to be over your garments. Your garments have to be touching your skin. Like, oh, my gosh, can someone just come out and squash this for the entire world? So people stop with these stupid rumors and stuff. Like, why isn't the church make it more easy to teach what's true? Like, stop teaching. The word of wisdom is about caffeine. It's not about caffeine. Break that stupid thing. Why isn't the church do that? The pressure to go on a mission and marry in the temple. Like, there are people who a mission is not for. Think about all these poor people who come home because they have serious, like, mental health issues being sent away, basically, and they suffer. And then they come home and they're told, oh, you didn't return with honor and you came home early, and now no one wants to date you. Like, it's not fair. All this pressure that you have to do these things. You have to get married in the temple. What about these couples who mess up and have sex and then they have to lie to their parents or lie to the bishop to make it to the temple? Or they do the honest thing and tell the truth and screw it all up and everyone hates them and it's

Host [04:03:12] super awkward and they're punished for being honest.

Guest [04:03:14] Right.

Host [04:03:15] People who lie get, you know, sail on through.

Guest [04:03:18] Yeah, yeah. The lack of inclusivity, like, not being kind to or friends with People of other face or people who seem imperfect. Like, I've realized it more and more, this circle that I have around Mormons. Like, especially when you go somewhere where there aren't a lot of members of the church, and if you see someone with, like, a BYU sticker on your car and it's like, hey, you're a Mormon. Or you can see someone, you can see their garments underneath, and it's like, they're in the same club as me. They know what I know. That's horrible. It's just stupid. Why would I treat them any different or be excited about them or give those people a chance before I would give any other human a chance? Why? I mean, I know we all like to hang out with people who we have stuff in common with, and it's easier to be friends with people who believe the same thing you do. But, like, the fact that teenagers are taught you shouldn't be friends with or date people who aren't members of the church unless you're trying to convert them. But otherwise, you need to protect yourself. You need to stay safe. Don't hang out with people who do drugs. Don't hang out with people who smoke. Don't hang out with people who swear. Don't hang out with people who have sex. Don't do all these things. Don't be friends with them. Don't go to parties because you need to be safe. I mean, and that applies for, like, the rest of your life, essentially. I can't even imagine going into the workplace as a Mormon and no one else is, and you're just like the outcast, and you don't. You're not really friends with them, and you don't want to be friends with them, partially.

Host [04:04:42] Culture of superiority.

Guest [04:04:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're. We're a little VIP club teaching that our work save you. And then I looked at the I Am A Child of God lyrics and I was appalled, sickened and disgusted. The more I look at these primary hymns and I'm like, what? That is what? I am brainwashing my children to believe.

Host [04:05:05] What's wrong with. I'm a child of God.

Guest [04:05:08] All that I must do. Yeah. To live with them someday. Yeah. What's the other verse? Celestial glory will be mine if I but can but endure if I don't go astray. Or. Yeah. What? Yeah, whatever it says. It's like, I can have this. If I do this I have to

Host [04:05:27] do so help me to understand his words before it grows too late. Kind of intimidation. Ominous. Is that.

Guest [04:05:35] Yeah.

Host [04:05:35] Yeah.

Guest [04:05:36] And I Think most people sing that to their children as a lullaby. And it's like you're projecting all of these ideas onto this little baby's face from the time that they're born of. Like, if you want to be with us for eternity, little baby, this is the kind of life you need to live up to. And it's too heavy to put that. She talks so much about trying to be a perfect mom. And I think the lyrics of I'm a child of God, when it flips in your brain and you start to realize these things, it does make you really sick.

Host [04:06:03] Yeah. And just that teaching teach me all that I must do to live with him someday implies that you might not live with him if you don't learn and follow. So you're creating again, it's an organization creating the scarcity that it then presents itself as a solution to by creating that fear and desperation. Starting it child childbirth. Right.

Guest [04:06:24] It's really important to highlight, I think.

Host [04:06:26] Yeah.

Guest [04:06:26] It's so sick. That immediate brainwashing and that your work save you and you have to do all these things. And if you don't. Or else be scared.

Host [04:06:35] Be very, very scared.

Guest [04:06:36] Even. You know, coming from someone who didn't grow up with the healthiest parents and divorced parents and even my. My husband's sister was murdered and the. His sister's four children had to be adopted. And there are people who have very unhealthy home lives and people whose parents were killed or whatever. And you sing this song. You know, I have. I have parents. Kind and dear. There are a lot of kids who don't have kind and dear parents. And that's sad.

Host [04:07:13] Yeah.

Guest [04:07:13] And I'm not about tiptoeing around life and always being politically correct.

Host [04:07:16] Yeah.

Guest [04:07:17] But that is damaging for kids. It's hurtful. And I just continued to look into more and more lyrics that said stuff like that. Okay. Then getting into the checklists and the assignments and how none of it's genuine. It's all just doing these things because you feel like you have to and you should, and how it's all assigned to you. You don't even get to choose what you want to do. Like, isn't that so much more meaningful? If people want to serve and they get to choose where they want to serve, then they'll actually enjoy it and they'll actually do it and be happy to do it, not be miserable hating it. Like people who are in primary for like five years and they're like, kill me. I haven't even been in Sunday school. Or Relief Society. I'm missing out on everything that's horrible. That's, that's not worshiping. That's not even freedom. And then you feel like you have to accept a calling. If you dare say, no, I don't want this calling, you're not having enough faith. And I've heard plenty of stories like that where people have said, you know, I didn't feel like I was up to it, but God gave me the strength. And what? There's a quote about like those who are called, I, I don't know. But again, you're pressured into just have faith, just do it and you'll be blessed again. I have to do all these things to be blessed. It's my works that saved me. This next thing really, really bothered me how we praise ourselves. Like, I'm the Relief Society president. I'm this calling. I have this authority. And it must mean that you're so good, you did something to reserve deserve it. And if I was blessed in some awesome way, it must be because I did something good, because I paid my tithing, because I went to the temple and made that sacrifice to drive all the way to the temple or whatever, you know, and it's like, okay, if this is about Jesus, shouldn't we be praising him and worshiping him and like, not ourselves? And like, why is Brigham Young University named Brigham Young? Why is Moroni on the top of our temples? Why do we have this whole new proclamation about Joseph Smith? And why for years and years in Relief Society did we study the life of the prophets? Why was that what we were studying? Who the freak cares about learning about the life of the prophet and his job? Thought this was about Jesus. None of that's about Jesus. It's about praising ourselves. Pioneer Day, learning all about the pioneer heritage and praising them and the hand cart companies. Like, that's not about Jesus. None of that. That's praising yourselves as praising man. I think that reminds me of like the VIP club, like the tribalism that you spoke of earlier, that while we try to be like this Christian sect, we want to make sure that, that what comes first is that you have a testimony of Joseph Smith and these prophets. And then like fifth down the line, if you develop a relationship with Jesus Christ and that's the testimony that you have, that can come or go, but you have to have a relationship with these prophets. Yeah, very. That first and foremost because you need to have a connection to the church. That also really bothered me. Well, yeah, because that ties you to the church. Exactly. Like you Said, if you just have a relationship with God or Jesus, you don't need the church. They need you to have a relationship with the bishop. They need you to have a relationship with the prophet. So, yeah, the handbook rules not letting people serve God because they had sex, BYU kicking people out because they have sex, or just not focusing on Jesus or forgiveness, like, at all. The atonement is such a, like, small part of what the church teaches and focuses on. I swear. So then I started realizing, wait, the church is a business. This is all like pr. Everything the church does and says is to try to sell people on the church. When I think about all the videos I watch and all these things they put out, it's because they want to convince people that the church is true. So of course they're going to make it seem good and happy and tied up in a pretty little bow. Of course they're not going to share about the hard realities and what it all entails to be a Mormon and everything you have to give up and sacrifice and do. They just make it look all nice and happy and pretty and they sell it to you because it's a business. It's not about Jesus. It's about building up the LDS Corp or something. Those are all the issues that I had before I even got into church history.

Reading the CES Letter and Its Impact

Host [04:11:41] So then. So you made that list before you read the CES list and then you read the CES letter. And what are the biggest things from the CES letter that really bothered you? Because a lot of our listeners haven't read the CES letter.

Guest [04:11:55] Oh, my gosh. The. The biggest thing that I did not like was nothing that the CES letter said. It was the fact that the CES letter exists. It is the fact that there are things about the church and the church's history that the church never tells you and that you can never talk about and that you can not find out through church resources. And that when you take the missionary discussions and you go to even the gospel principal Sunday school class and you're learning, you go to Sunday school. I mean, I spent 10 years going to church, going to meetings, going to BYU, doing all this stuff, never once hearing about any of this. None of it. I knew about polygamy, but I was taught that's because there was like this Mormon battalion and winter quarters and men went off and died and all these widows were left behind and they were just married to be provided for and taken care of, not to have sex with or didn't know about teenagers. I mean, it's not Like a faith promoting story in church history, you're never going to learn about it in church, right? Yeah, but that's not honesty. Then if all this stuff exists and the church never ever tells you or talks about it, that's sketchy as heck.

Host [04:13:18] So you're saying the biggest, the number one realization coming out of the CES letter was that there was all the stuff you had not been told. Again, going back to informed consent, if you're joining the church, you should be told its factual history. So you know what you're joining. If you're born and raised in the church again, you're making commitments at 8, and then at 12, and then at 19, you're making these lifelong commitments to give your time, your money, everything to the church, your children. If you're not given all the information, that's a problem. And you're basically saying the CBS letter made you aware that the church has been hiding its problematic history from investigators and for members, is that the number one concern?

Guest [04:13:58] Even if it wasn't problematic, you're leaving out details like why does the church put out these video showing Joseph Smith using his finger on the plates and then dictating when that's literally not what happened?

Host [04:14:11] Because what happened was he put a

Guest [04:14:14] rock in a hat and put his face in the hat and saw some words on a rock. He never used the plates, never once looked at the plates and no one ever saw him anyway.

Host [04:14:24] To produce the Book of Mormon we have now.

Guest [04:14:25] Yeah, yeah. So why the frick do we need these plates? Why were they carrying them around, scribing into them for thousands of years, running through the forest with them to protect them if they were never used?

Host [04:14:35] And why weren't we told this? Why was it depicted in untruthful ways?

Guest [04:14:40] Why are there all these graphics and paintings and videos depicting one story that did not happen?

Host [04:14:47] Yeah, the urim and thumb and the spectacles and the breastplate never happened.

Guest [04:14:51] Yeah, yeah. Like you're literally just lying. You're literally making up a story, creating these happy little wrapped up in a bow. I'm gonna keep saying that because that's what it is. Faith inspiring stories that make you feel good. Like the work and the glory. Like everything that I felt about Joseph Smith to get you to love him and think it's miraculous and divine and that's not what happened. Makes no sense. And that work in the glory stuff sounds like it carried your testimony for a really long time. Even when you had other doubts. You're like, I can't deny what I felt. When I learned about Joseph Smith. Yes. When I was unraveling, like, oh, I don't know if the temple's true and I don't know if the priesthood's true, but that must mean the Book of Mormon's not true and Joseph Smith's not true, but I feel like he's true. So I'm just not going to worry about it. Like, I ignored that because I didn't even know there was a way to explain that it wasn't true. Like, in my mind, it was just the thing. You either have to believe or don't believe. Right. That's what faith is. And that was the thing that stood out to me about the CES letter. That was the takeaway. There's an amazing quote in it that says, you know, faith is believing in things that can't be proven. It's believing in things that can't be seen. It is delusional to believe in something that can be disproven and can be seen. I'm like, I've been delusional. I've been believing in something and having faith in something because I thought there was no proof or no way to show that it was real, when in reality there's a whole lot of ways to show that it's not real. And I was just duped because I had no clue that you could disprove the Book of Mormon or disprove Joseph Smith. I didn't know that existed. I thought it was just a matter of faith. Right. That's what it all is about, having faith, choosing to believe the Spirit testifies to you, and therefore you have faith and you act on that spiritual confirmation you got. But it's a feeling. It's not something you can prove. That's. That's just what faith is. But you have those feelings based off the thoughts that you're telling yourself, based off your circumstance. If my circumstances. Watching all these videos and reading all these things which create happy feelings, of course that's going to translate into all these happy feelings. Are the spirit telling me is true? That's not the spirit. You feeling happy? I didn't know that. I had no idea.

Host [04:17:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when did you. When did you read the CES letter?

Guest [04:17:15] March 30th.

Host [04:17:17] Oh, well, so that's just like a month and a half ago, huh?

Guest [04:17:21] And I read it all in one day. One day, non stop going, going and going, reading everything I could. And the very next day, literally took me one day to say, can I fake this for the sake of my marriage? I never once in anything that I was reading, felt sad about losing the church. Never once. Didn't cry about it, didn't care about everything about the church falling apart. I didn't care. It's not true. Doesn't matter. I cared about and cried about losing my husband, losing my community, losing my job with YouTube. Like, what am I going to talk about now? How am I going to tell the world that I don't believe in the church anymore?

Host [04:18:08] Because your audience, what, depended on me.

Guest [04:18:12] I mean, people got baptized because of me. People needed me to help strengthen their faith, and the world needed me to teach them about the church. But now, what's my purpose now? What am I? What do I do now?

Host [04:18:24] Yeah. Your brand, so to speak.

Guest [04:18:27] Yeah, totally.

Host [04:18:28] My brand was being an orthodox Mormon and a defender of the church.

Guest [04:18:35] Not only my brand, but also my family.

Host [04:18:38] Yeah.

Guest [04:18:39] Everything about my husband and I meeting and what we connected over and bonded over about our testimonies with the church and our disciplinary things and using the atonement to overcome our mistakes in life

Host [04:18:52] and, I mean, that's trauma bonding, by the way.

Guest [04:18:55] It is. Yep.

Host [04:18:56] You guys having part of your love being forged and having both been through a disciplinary council, 100%, the trauma bonding.

Guest [04:19:04] And there was a lot of that. We both were, like, very black and white. This is right. This is true. And that's what we clung to.

Host [04:19:12] Yeah.

Guest [04:19:13] And that's what kept our marriage strong because we always had that common denominator. So without that, what do we have?

Host [04:19:18] So you felt. I'm guessing you felt like you risked losing a lot.

Guest [04:19:23] Yes. Everything. I mean, yeah, I wasn't scared about my eternal salvation. I wasn't sad about losing the rules or the.

Host [04:19:39] The experience. It sounds like the lived Mormon experience wasn't great for you.

Guest [04:19:43] No. Wasn't. I convinced myself that, you know, like, when I left the church before and I was miserable afterwards, and then I came back and everything fell into place, and I was so happy. I told myself that's because I was doing what was right and I was choosing to follow the church and whatnot, but I was. That happiness did not sustain me. And even when I tried so hard to be happy and to take control of my thoughts and therefore control of my feelings, I still found so much discontentment in my life. It was constantly not meeting my expectations for myself, my husband not meeting my expectations for him, just constant disappointment and not feeling, like, fulfilled.

Host [04:20:29] Yeah.

Guest [04:20:30] And it wasn't until I kind of realized the church wasn't true that I was like, oh, my gosh Hallie has been lost this entire time. I think about who I was as, like, a teenager before I tried to be perfect and defend the church. And I was, like, so silly and happy and, like, weird, unique, goofy. I was just, like, honest about who I was. And then when I joined the church and wanted to be all gung ho in the church, I just wanted to be a Mormon, Halle. And I was so serious all the time because everything is about getting a celestial kingdom, helping others get there. It's a serious, serious thing. Every YouTube video is serious my entire life. You know, my husband comes home and it's about being serious. Everything we do is serious and important. There's nothing about, like, having fun. I know that sounds dumb because obviously I did have fun. And there, you know, I laugh and whatnot, but, like, I just wasn't myself. I was trying to be a Mormon, Hallie, and a perfect Mormon, and I, like, lost myself in there. And it's funny because I hadn't posted, like, anything on Instagram really about this. And people were starting to DM me and be like, you are glowing. You look so happy. Like, the way you talk, you seem, like, really authentic. You've really real. Really, you. Checkmate. Checkmate. Weird, right? Yeah. People didn't even know what was going on. And people could tell something was, like, lighter, happier, super weird. And then, you know, things got hard because I told my husband and I tried to talk to friends about it, and I tried to talk to the girl whose brother baptized me, the girl who was part of the family that half raised me. And I told her, like, the church isn't true. And I had my conversation with her. She said, really? I don't think anything could change my mind about the Book of Mormon, even if there is research showing otherwise. I wouldn't even be interested in reading that negative stuff about it, though. I said, it's not anything negative. It's not an opinion. It's historical facts. It's the true story where Joseph Smith got all this from. It's not the story the Church tells. I mean, I wasn't there in the 1820s, so I can't say for certain, but there's definitely a lot of evidence that Joseph didn't do what the Church says he did. And a lot of accounts describing where the Book of Mormon actually came from. And there's certainly a lot of issues. And she goes, yeah, but you can never say for certain. I'm like, I wish I could tell myself that. I really do. I wish I could tell myself, like, well, I don't know. So I'll just, I'll just keep doing it. It's worth it. Just stay in it.

Host [04:23:27] Well, a lot of people do that.

Guest [04:23:28] Yeah.

Host [04:23:29] Especially if their business or their marriage or their mental health or their well being or their community are dependent on faithfulness in the church. It's kind of like Groundhog Day where the groundhog peeks his head out of the hole, looks up and decides to go right back in and stay in the hole. I'd say many thousands, tens of thousands of people have made that choice. And I'm not judging that. Maybe it's self preservation or maybe it's just that's what they value or what they need. I'm curious, what made you decide you weren't going to take that route of just staying in and not believing?

Guest [04:24:11] I read the CES letter in one day. I read the letter for my wife and I immediately knew the church wasn't true. I mean, literally the next day I woke up and I was like, yeah, I know the church isn't true. I know it's not what it claims to be. And I even said to myself, take away all the church history, right? Take away Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, polygamy, even take away the blacks in the priesthood. Let's take it right to modern day church is messed up. Modern day. There's no way God's leading this church. No way. And that, that was it for me.

Host [04:24:46] Because why?

Guest [04:24:47] How do you know it's so clearly not of God? Why the fact that it changes? If the temple is the house of the Lord, the most sacred holy place on earth, why would it change? And why would you do evil things in the temple, like try to kill yourself? What? Why would you promise all of these things to a church and not to Jesus? This is not of God. These are people manipulating you into giving everything you have, scaring yourself for the rest of your life into being a part of their organization. Whether they're consciously doing it or not, I do not know. I would assume not. But there's no way. The Temples of God, that was my deal breaker. I never had stuff on a shelf. Like, I know a lot of people have issues that have bugged them over the years and they just kind of like don't focus on it. Like polygamy being one of them. I justified polygamy. That's because I didn't know everything about it. I, you know, I, I believed in all of the church, all of it. Blacks in the priesthood. You know, I felt like that was right. I really Did I told myself, God gives us what we need when we're ready for it. The church is continuing to be restored. He can't give it to us all at once. It's line upon line. Our puny little mortal brains remember, they are. God is of higher. God's ways are God's ways, not man's ways. Who are we to say what God should do? I could never say, well, I think God should do this, or I think that that wasn't God and that wasn't right. I can't say that. Who am I to say that? I just had faith and believe that God was involved in all of it, and he did what we needed. I didn't see anything wrong with it.

Host [04:26:31] And the LGBT stuff, I had no

Guest [04:26:34] clue, to be honest. I had no clue how bad it was. Like, the antidote to that is information and knowing people up close and seeing people's hurt. And like you're mentioning with that Instagram post, it took, like, one person just mentioning some of the ways that this cultural stuff even just has harmed people. And connections start to be made, and you start realizing that, yeah, if this, this is God's church, why does he allow so much harm to be done in his name? Like John was saying earlier about people having so much authority to speak in God's name, and why would God allow this? And it just. It takes an empathetic heart to just say, I don't think this could be God's church. And it's. It's a brave thing to do. And I've always considered myself a really empathetic person, but I cared way more about the church and being loyal to the church. And by the church, I mean the prophet, than I did about people. Is that what Jesus teaches us to do? No. I cared for way more about the church than I did about people. Couldn't care less how people were hurt or offended or committing suicide over what the church taught. I got into a fight with someone on Twitter, a gay guy, because it was General Conference 2018, like, April 2018, I think. And he said on Twitter, like, I can't listen to General Conference because I can't listen to President Oaks. It makes me want to kill myself when I listen to him. And I said to him, that is like God trying to speak to you face to face and you saying, no, you won't listen to him. I think you should listen to God's mouthpiece. I cannot believe I said that. That's why I made my YouTube video sobbing, apologizing for what I have Said and done that has hurt people. I had no idea how harmful those teachings were and how harmful me defending them, not only defending them, but pushing them hard down people's throats. And no idea the hurt that I was doing and the hurt that people had because of the church. I had never looked at it that way. In fact, every time President Oaks gave any sort of conference talk, defending the family proclamation and you know, saying how gay marriage is bad and all these other things that he has said, you know, I was like, yeah, you tell him. Isn't that sick? I had no empathy. I did not care. I just cared about what was true and right and the church is true. So therefore gotta tell these people how it is separating wheat and tares. So sick. But I was, I was just so loyal and I just felt that it was so true and I wanted people to believe it was true. So therefore, don't ignore the prophet. Don't not listen, don't disobey. Follow the prophet. He knows the way. Yes, I just rhymed all that on purpose because that's, that's what's right. That's what you're supposed to do. That's what we're asked to do. God asked us to do that. Until I realized that was not God at all. And there's no way God would be involved in that. Maybe I'll be smited for saying that, for pretending to say like, I know what God would do, but pretty darn sure God would never do any of the crap that has happened in this church. Not of God. There's no way. It's too evil, honestly. Evil. That's how I feel about it. I feel like what happens in the temple is evil. I feel like the fact that no prophet for 100 years could receive revelation to change something like, why is the church always on the wrong side of history? Why does it always take the world coming around and the world improving for the church to make a change? If this is God's true church and these are prophets, seers and revelators, they would be the one leading the way. They would be the one trying to change the world to be better. And they don't. Not at all. And then I realized, you know, how much like missionaries are just door to door salesmen. And think about all the good that the church has, all this money and all this power, like manpower through missionaries, that they could do so much good and help people, and instead they have door to door salesmen. It's like, you really want to be like Jesus. You really want to Help people, serve people. Go do it. Why are you apostles of God and you're not washing people's feet, you're not healing people, you're not saving them. What are you doing? Except flying around in jets going and talking to people? Doesn't. You are not being led by God you like? No. Just made me sad for all the people who are hurting and all the good that the church could do, even if it's not the one true church, be a good organization. And maybe it is good for some people, like my mom, you know, who has helped as a single woman and whatnot. My mother just recently had cancer and the church was there for her and helped her a ton. You know, the church does try to do good. Of course there are good people in the church, but like, overall, the church could be an amazing force for good and helping people and using all their money and their resources, and they don't. Not enough. And you think about all the money you spend on tithing, you're like, it's going to temples. It's going to hymn books. No, it's not. I can't believe I wasted all that money when I didn't even have it and I gave it up.

Leaving the Church and Navigating Marriage

Host [04:31:58] So if I'm thinking about your husband who, you know, got married into this, well, was raised in the system and then gets married into the system where he starts out the marriage disclosing his own personal weaknesses and throughout the years of the marriage is trying to overcome sins that the church has told him. He's. He's. He's engaging in. And then if you're, if you're in that hamster wheel of, of impurity and wrestling, hustling for worthiness and you're failing, you ironically, feel like you need the church more and more because you're just more and more broken, you're more and more flawed, and you're more and more hopeless without the church. That's kind of this toxic shame downward spiral that, that some of these messages end up leaving someone with. So I'm just guessing, but I can't imagine he was able to take this news very well.

Guest [04:32:57] Yeah.

Host [04:32:58] Anything you want to talk about? How it affected. And of course, it's an ongoing story. Like right now you guys are in the middle of it and, you know, it's important that we don't try and dig in ways either shame him or that make it harder for you guys to figure out your future and you have kids together. Yeah, but what do you want to say about how he received that and what that's been like for you guys?

Guest [04:33:27] I really see both sides because I know what the people who question the church or find stuff out or struggle with their beliefs in the church feel like, because I was not expecting any of this. I mean, it's me. I defend the church. Got a freaking published book defending the church. And I would have never, ever in a million years thought I would ever be in Utah, not wearing garments, leaving the church on Mormon Stories podcast, talking about how I don't believe in the church, never, ever in a million years. And that rips the rug out from underneath someone who thought they could count on you. Like, that's a trust thing. You get married under the assumption that this person is going to keep being this person who you thought they were. And I'm not that person anymore. And that's really hard for my husband. And it's sad for me because I feel like I am 500% a better person today than I was three months ago. I have way more love and empathy for the human population, for people who are different than me. My brain is open to learning whatever the world has to tell me and show me. And I just feel so much more accepting and happy and real and authentic and just like, my heart is open, and I feel like that's such an amazing thing. But for someone like my husband or the person, you know, who's still believing their world comes crashing down because you're not doing the things you said you would, you're not believing the things you said you did, then that's like, in their mind, the core of who you

Host [04:35:06] are and why they married you.

Guest [04:35:09] Exactly.

Host [04:35:10] So you broke the contract.

Guest [04:35:11] I did. I am not what he signed up for. I'm not. And I know that. And just for.

Host [04:35:19] Yeah. And yet you're seeking, in your mind, you're seeking truth, right?

Guest [04:35:22] Yes. And I think it's a great thing. And if I were him, I would be like, wow, you know, this is hard, but, like, you're amazing and I respect you and I love you and I'm by your side no matter what. But like you said, for someone like my husband, who has had to cling onto the church for dear life, for safety, because of the things he struggled with, I mean, even just think about his sister being murdered. Like, he has to believe in the temple and have hope for eternal families, or else he's not going to be with her forever. He has to cling onto that and to the hope that the church is what will keep him safe so that if or when he messes up, he Knows what to do and how to repent and how to get through it. And I get that. That is safety for him. It's security. It's. It's also his family. It's his upbringing. Like, you don't know what it's like to be outside of that. I mean, even I still feeling like I'm a Christian now, I still believe in God, in Jesus. How the heck do I pray now? Like, even something as simple as that, like, the Mormon world is just all encompassing every second of your life, that. How do you let any of that go and rebuild? Who am I now? What do I believe now? Do I believe it's okay to do this? What do I think about that now? That your mind isn't, like, trapped by all these things that the church tells you you should believe and think. I understand that. That's like the scariest thing on earth for the person who still believes, because your future is now very uncertain. You don't know. Like, you know, coming from my husband's perspective, he has no idea if next month I'll be completely atheist or the month after that I'll decide something else.

Host [04:37:14] Or if you'll want us. If. Or if you'll want to stay married to him. I mean, he might have that fear.

Guest [04:37:18] Yeah, because I don't want to live a Mormon life now. I mean, we got into a fight about taking our kids swimming on Sunday because he thinks that's inappropriate. And he's now like, I don't want to fight with you about this. If you should be happy, like, go live your life and be happy. I don't want to hold you back and make you feel miserable being stuck with me as a Mormon who's going to constantly be telling you, no, you can't teach our kids that. No, you can't do that. I bought iced tea. He sees iced tea in the fridge, and it is like a stab in the gut to him to see that I'm drinking iced tea. Like, that's so painful. And I feel horrible for him that this life that he never wanted and never expected and actively tried to avoid, he purposefully didn't even want to date converts to the church because he wanted someone who was really strong for certain. And he thought I was. He thought I had my sure witness of the Book of Mormon. He thought I really knew it and believed it, and so did I. It's not like I ever thought this would happen. So I get how scary and horrible and hard it is for him. And I tried to approach it in a really gentle way, because none of this stuff that I read in the CES letter, a letter from my wife, made me angry. So I came to him and said, hey, I'm. I'm a little confused about some stuff about the Church. I was hoping you could help me. He said, sure, I'd love to. Like, what do you need help with? I said, I'm a little confused why the church teaches this about Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon, but it actually happened this way. And he tried to answer my question. I said, okay, well, it doesn't really make sense if he never used the plates. And he's like, of course he used the plates. And I'm like, but actually he didn't. And you know, even he's like, well, the plates are real. People saw them. The witnesses saw them. I'm like, you know, actually they just had a vision of them. They didn't even really see them or actually touch the real thing. And he's like, that's not true. And then, you know, I could tell he was getting upset and getting defensive, and I just kind of didn't want to make it a big deal and didn't want to upset him. And it just came down to him saying, read the damn book. The Book of Mormon is true. Just read it, pray about it, and you'll know. That's it. It doesn't matter what Joseph Smith did. Nothing else matters. I don't care what the prophet does. I don't care what Joseph Smith did. I don't care about any of it. The book is true.

Host [04:39:45] And if we, if we talk about undue influence, that's called thought stopping. These thought stopping cliches. Read the book. You know, it doesn't matter. Be skeptical of intellectuals. Have more faith, you know, doubt your doubts. Those are all thoughts, you know, I'm not saying your husband was intentionally trying to employ undue influence, but those, those are called thought stopping techniques that keep you from following your curiosity and following the evidence to make conclusions that would be other than what the Church wants you to. To conclude.

Guest [04:40:20] And he sent me all of these things from Tatar Collister about basically proving the Book of Mormon is true.

Host [04:40:28] And how could an uneducated farm boy come up with such a brilliant.

Guest [04:40:32] I mean, even like this law, like there's a law that either the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be and it is the true word of God, or it's evil. I'm like, I don't think the Book of Mormon is evil. I don't think the Book of Mormon really teaches anything evil. I don't think the devil himself wrote this book. And CJ's like, no, that's true. It's either this or it's that. The Book of Mormon can't have any good to it. It can't be any bit truth.

Host [04:40:55] And that's called black and white thinking, which is another form of undue influence.

Guest [04:40:59] But it's because he puts his faith and trust in these, you know, prophets and apostles, like Tatar Collister, who's writing this talk or whatever about the Book of Mormon, about how it must be true. And CJ's just putting his faith in that, that this law exists. And then CJ is telling me like, well, the Book of Mormon says, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, exactly. You can't prove the Book of Mormon is true by using the Book of Mormon.

Host [04:41:25] That's like a circular.

Guest [04:41:28] Yeah, that makes no sense. It's like, I would never study. I would never believe some, some company's study of themselves. Like, oh, yeah, our product is safe if they.

Host [04:41:36] Our product's the best ever, right?

Guest [04:41:38] If they're the ones who are saying that and they're the ones.

Host [04:41:40] Our studies show that our product's the best ever, right?

Guest [04:41:42] I would never trust that, right? And so I knew that there was like, no talking to him about it and that he just believed it and I didn't. And nothing he sent me would change my mind because I read everything he sent me, everything that tried to prove the Book of Mormon to be true. And he feels like it's a really powerful witness that the Book of Mormon is true. Like, look at all this evidence. Look at all, like, there's no way that it could be false. And I'm like, I can literally debunk everything you're saying right now. I can sentence by sentence, take the every talk you're giving me about the Book of Mormon and debunk it and tell you why that's not true. So then he's left with what? I have a wife who doesn't believe the same things I do. I have a wife who wants to raise our kids differently than I do. I mean, welcome to marriage in general. You're different. You have to figure out how to cohabitate and co parent with someone who's different from you. But this is like a really big different. And now he feels like the one thing that was our foundation that binded us together, no matter all of the difficulties we have, we have a lot in our marriage. This was the thing that kept us together. And now that's gone. It's devastating for him. And I feel horrible because now he feels no security in me and our future because he doesn't know what it looks like. At least he knew for sure one thing was true, that we would be together forever and that we believed in the same thing, and that we would always have the church following the church and trying to become like God, be our goal. That even when our marriage was really hard, we could go to the temple together and feel the spirit there and worship in the same way. And now we don't have that.

Host [04:43:28] So you talk about this being devastating for him. What about for you? I mean, you just told us your whole Mormon story. What is this like for you to discover this at age 28 in an eternal marriage with two children after all you've been through?

Guest [04:43:46] I'm just happy, man. Like, I feel good.

Host [04:43:49] You feel happy?

Guest [04:43:50] Yeah, I really do. I feel like my kids are getting the best advantage in life to have a mom who's going to teach them to love others and have an open heart and open mind to see what the world has to teach them, that they will know all sides of Mormonism, they will know everything I can teach them, everything that school teaches them, the world teaches them, their friends teach them, and that they will be able to make this informed decision themselves. And that I get to make informed decisions for myself instead of just following blindly, doing exactly this little path that I'm told I have to do. Because there's only one covenant path. The way is narrow. You know, there's only one way to get there. There's only one way to have true happiness and your family forever. And now I don't subscribe to that anymore. And, I mean, there is difficulty in, like, like I said, even figuring out how. How do I want to pray now? And what exactly do I believe about God or Jesus now? And, you know, like, reconstructing faith, because I want to have faith, and I can't say I know anything. And that actually feels way more powerful than saying I do know. Like, that's really, really cool for me to say I don't know. And I'm not going to pretend to know, and I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers and tell everyone else that I know, blah, blah, blah, is true. But I can just go based on what I think makes sense, what resonates with me and what I feel is right, and maybe I'll be proven wrong one day, Maybe I'll change my mind one day. But I trust myself and I trust my ability to think. I don't need anyone to tell me what to think because now I know how to think, and that's super empowering for me. And I can be myself. It's not because I'm so happy to be free now to sin. I couldn't care less. Like, taking my garments off was like, the last thing I did. I didn't care about that. I didn't care about, like, oh, yeah, now I can drink coffee and drink alcohol and not wear garments and wear cute outfits and show off my body. Like, I know that's what everyone thinks. Like, oh, you just want to be free to be selfish and sin and do these things. It's not it at all. It's about being like my authentic self and doing what feels right. And, you know, for me, maybe that might still be. I don't think alcohol feels right because I don't think it's good for my body or I don't like the way I feel when I consume alcohol. Like, that is up to me to decide. Not because anyone tells me what I can and cannot do. And I'm able to actually think and make that decision for myself. And I. I feel like the church tries to get people to do that. Like, the church tries to tell people, you know, you should know your why. But they also say if you don't know why, just kind of fake it till you make it. Like, I think it was Neil L. Anderson who said, if you want a testimony of Joseph Smith, testify of Joseph Smith. If you want a testimony of the Book of Mormon, testify of the Book of Mormon. It's like, how can I do that if I don't have a testimony? You just want me to lie to convince myself is true. This makes no sense. So now I'm not going to do things just because I. Anyone tells me to. And I'm going to decide for myself what. What feels right, what makes sense. So those questions about, like, have you had some pushback, like, from your YouTube audience and other that people have noticed your YouTube videos that you're changing, you're talking about your faith crisis. Have you gotten pushback that you're not doing this because you now have access to the information and the evidence that it is because you want to send, quote, unquote, have you gotten. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So like I said, 2020 was really hard for my marriage, and my husband made mistakes, I made mistakes. I was pretty public about what some of those were, and I didn't give full details about anything. But people are now Saying, oh, it's just because you sinned. Now you're full of pride and you're too full of guilt in your sin because of what you did. So that's why you can't handle your guilt. Are these former fans? Like, oh, yeah, these are fans, members of the church all. I got an email from someone telling me that I'm on a full on campaign now to smear the church and prove it's not true. And he's going to comment on every single one of my videos to prove that it is true. And I had someone comment on my YouTube video predicting my future, saying, you're going to go on Mormon stories, you're going to get a divorce and you're going to sleep with a bunch of people, your kids are going to blah, blah, blah. Like, this person's predicting my future now that I'm living a life of sin.

Host [04:48:32] And the new patriarchal blessing. Yeah, pretty much Ex Mormon patriarchal blessing in reverse.

Guest [04:48:38] Yeah. This is, this is what happens when you leave the church and you're an apostate. I can't believe how many times I've been called an apostate. Whoa. Can't believe people actually use that word and think that. So, yeah, people, of course, think I'm just wanting to sin and I'm just being prideful and that I just want out.

Host [04:48:55] How would you summarize it?

Guest [04:48:58] I'm just being true to myself and following what is I think is true and right. As far as I know, the evidence. Yeah. Come up may. Exactly. I don't know what the future holds. I don't know what's 100% true and real. I can only do what I think and what I feel. You've exhausted the Mormon life and what they told you to do. It doesn't sound like it gave you the Mormon marriage that you were looking for. It doesn't sound like it filled you with the spirit and came out very unfulfilling. And even then it sounds like you were as faithful as you could possibly be until the evidence just didn't add up. And what's a girl to do? Yeah, I mean, people could say, like, Halle, your YouTube videos, like, the spirit was so strong. Like, don't act like you weren't happy. Don't act like the church wasn't good for you. Like, go back and watch your videos. You loved the church. You were so strong in it. The spirit was so strong when you testified of it. Like, you're right, because I did love what I believe because I told myself that it was right based on the knowledge I had. And I believed it with my whole heart. And I felt safe and secure and comfort in it. And it was my world. And I felt like, you know, if you have something that's so good, like you have the best cookie in the world, you want to tell everyone, you need to try this cookie. It's so good. And I felt like I had that in the church. Like, this is the best thing because it saved me from being sad and depressed and lonely. And Jesus Christ saved me. The Atonement saved me. And I still feel that way. I just see it a little bit differently now because the Jesus that I thought I knew and what I thought Jesus did and what I thought God did in my life, it's a little different than what I originally thought. I think you wanted to know, like, how my thoughts changed about. I want to know everything. I want to know about those spiritual experiences I had.

Host [04:51:03] Yeah.

Guest [04:51:03] How you could. I think I relate to your story so much because I. I call it like a DIY God that's inside my brain, that's inside everyone's brain of how you interpret things. Is this God speaking to me in this way? And this is the path that he's putting me on to this. And then when you realize, okay, the Mormon part isn't true, the evidence points to it being a fraud. How do I reinterpret what I totally thought was God talking to me? And it did have good benefits, and sometimes it didn't. And so. Yeah. What parts do you want to talk about that you're like, that was definitely God, or maybe I was making that up.

Making Sense of Spiritual Experiences After Leaving

Host [04:51:36] How do you make sense of what you thought were spiritual experiences?

Guest [04:51:38] Yeah, I read Lynn Wilder's book, Unveiling Grace, and that helped me a lot because she talked about her deconstruction of all of her Mormon experiences that helped her convert and feel that the church was true? And it was that as well.

Host [04:51:55] It's.

Guest [04:51:56] That's really helpful book, I think, for people right after. Yes, it is. I just look at it. I really do think that there is a God who loves us and who has a plan and who's watching out for me and helping me and leading me and guiding me. And I think that I still. I can't comprehend what that plan is for me. Like, right now. I can tell you I have no freaking idea why I have to go through all this crap right now. That my marriage is in, like, the worst place it's ever been, and it's devastating, and yet I've Got to go through this for some reason, and I know I was about to have my babies. I would never take any of that back. I would never say, you know, I wish I didn't join the church. I wish I didn't go to byu. I wish I didn't marry a Mormon. I would never say any of that, because even all the pain and suffering that I went through, all the boys, all the church stuff, like, it led me to where I am, and I would not have learned to love myself and find myself and trust myself and stand up for myself if I hadn't been through all this stuff. I don't know what my life would have looked like if I didn't go down this path. And I really think that, you know, God led me through this. I was supposed to go back to the Mormon Church. You think, like, oh, you had already left, it would have been easier to stay gone. But I think I was supposed to come back, and I think I was supposed to help those people through my YouTube channel. And I don't know why, but I. I actually think it's because I can have a lot larger influence now, because now I've built up this audience. Now these people have built a relationship with me and seen what I've been through. And who knows how many more people I can help now that I've gone through this. Whether that's leaving Mormonism or, I don't know, whatever it looks like, people just thinking for themselves, trusting themselves, loving themselves. I don't know.

Host [04:54:09] So. So I'm. I'm feeling. Well, I'm. I'm clearly skewed by all the tens of thousands of people I've talked to have been through this, because in my mind, what my mind thinks is on your behalf. You broke up with the boyfriend you loved in high school. You go to byu. You spend four years trying to find someone who loves you, you're rejected. You. You know, you start feeling like you have all the sexual shame where you live for all those years, maybe even a decade, feeling unworthy, feeling broken. The church taught you all that. You know, you. You. You figure out it's probably not true. But then you fall back into it. When you go to Arizona, you're disciplined by the church disciplinary council. And then you end up marrying a guy that you probably wouldn't have married if. If you hadn't believed the things you believed. And then you had a couple kids with the guy that you maybe wouldn't have married otherwise. And now you are facing the real possibility of your marriage potentially dissolving What a lot of people do when they get to the end of that isn't what you just said, which is, hey, the Lord led me through it all. It's all for the good. And I'm not trying to push you to draw a different conclusion than what you're concluding. And frankly, I think your conclusion of it all, there's all a reason for it all. I mean, that, that probably leads to a healthier disposition than, like, I, the church, Mormon Church, ruined my life.

Guest [04:55:47] Like, that's a good point.

Host [04:55:48] It derailed me for over a decade and taught me I was evil and how much time I wasted and money I wasted and how I gave my life away to something that in the end wasn't true. That's. That's where a lot of people end up going when they've been through what you've been through. But I guess you're saying you don't. That's not how you feel.

Guest [04:56:11] I don't feel that way at all.

Host [04:56:12] And that's good. Yes.

Guest [04:56:13] And I should, like, oh, no, no, there's no should. No, I think I should.

Host [04:56:16] You should feel what you feel.

Guest [04:56:19] Well, I'm happy I feel this way, but I feel like logically it would make so much more sense to be like, like my. I left my family. I spent 10 years being an outsider in my family. They couldn't see me get married. They had. I moved to the land of Mormons. I've been on the other side of the country. Haven't had a relationship with my parents, my siblings. Out here alone, spending all my life devoted to living the church, preaching the gospel on YouTube. Of course, it's asinine. Like, why the freak did I do that for something that's not even true? Oh, I could hate myself and be so annoyed. I had a really hard marriage, okay, Take issues and mistakes out of it. Like, marriage is hard. And I, I didn't say any of this, but I changed a lot about myself to be with my husband. I lost 50 pounds, bleached my hair blonde, started wearing blue colored contacts, started eating a completely different way, working out all these things because I just wanted to feel wanted, not because he asked me to do any of it. I was more than willing. And weird things happened where I turned my hair orange and decided, okay, I'll just go blonde. Like, I didn't do it all for him. And I don't want to ever put that impression that he asked me to or told me to, but I did spend so much of my life wanting to feel loved. And wanted and accepted and, like, I was good enough. And I had a guy here telling me that he accepted me and loved me, even though I had made all these horrible mistakes. But I didn't feel good enough for him. I felt like I didn't deserve him. And so I wanted to try to be perfect for him. I wanted to look perfect, to keep him around that way, because that's my game. That's my move. I use my body to keep guys, and it has never worked. And I can tell you, still, it does not work. Doesn't matter how much I have sex with my husband. Doesn't take away the fact that I don't have the same belief as him. Doesn't matter all the great chemistry we have in that way or any other way. We are best friends. We really are. That doesn't take away all the. The other stuff that makes it really hard to be married. And if it weren't for the church, I would not have married him. He wouldn't have married me. But I grew a ton from being married to someone that. I'm not saying that he was difficult, but that marriage was difficult. And the challenges that came with who he is and who I am, I would have never learned and grown in the ways that I did. And I really think I would have stayed trapped in my attachment wounds and my vicious cycle of being used and never feeling good enough or wanted. And even when I left the church, and I still felt that way even though I was out of the church, you know, So I really feel like it's all been for my good and for my learning and improving and, like, going to therapy and learning stuff and healing stuff and, like, figuring all this stuff out about myself has been so worth it. It would have never happened if I wouldn't have stayed in the church and fought as long as I did for the church and for my marriage. So I. I do look at it that way. I can look at it the other way, too, for certain. But now I have a new chance at life, and I don't. I don't know what it. The future holds for me. I literally have no idea. And it's the scariest thing I've ever been through because, like, yeah, I said, you know, I understand how my husband feels. It's really hard for him, but it's also really hard for me because I could think about what a whole new life looks like out of Mormonism, maybe meet a new guy who I don't have to worry about, you know, only dating Mormon guys and only making sure, they do this and they're good and they're going to be a good priesthood holder and they're not going to mess up. And I can look for something totally different. My husband has a lot of pain from his shame and the crap he's had to endure. And I love him and I believe in him and I want to stand by him through it, but I don't know if it's going to work out with us being together. And I can't heal him. I can't make him know the things that I know. I wish I could. I wish he could break out of that cycle and all that crap that is being taught that just makes it even worse. I really wish I could, but I can't. And so I have to let him do what he feels is right and I have to do what I feel is right. And hopefully we both do that and it will be good for our kids. And I don't. I don't know, maybe there is someone else out there for me. Maybe my husband and I will make it through. But right now, like, yeah, it is scary for me too, because I don't want to live life of having to be half Mormon, having to be okay with the things he wants to teach our kids and the way he wants to raise them. Like the thought of being able to go be free and live a new life with a new husband and all non Mormon, like that sounds appealing for sure. But I also really love my husband and I have hope for him and for me and. I don't know. It's really scary though. And none of this, with our marriage being in limbo would have happened if I didn't leave the church. Our marriage was really hard and there was a lot of crap that we were working through, but I just really feel like I'm being led here. Like, my marriage fell apart and the church fell apart and both things are my entire world. Like, what else is there besides your family and your faith? Like, and even it ties into my job, right. When it comes to YouTube and being an influencer and stuff, like, it's my entire world and it all just got destroyed, essentially. But I'm happy about it. So I don't know. I don't know what the purpose is. I just feel like it happened for a reason and I'm really grateful and scared.

Host [05:02:55] Yeah, makes perfect sense. Well, Kara, there were a lot of questions you wanted to ask along the way that I said, wait till the end. And I'm. I'm trying to just think if there's any that she didn't answer. I know she looked.

Guest [05:03:07] She did. I think everything you just said is as positive and healthy of an outlook as anyone could ask for. And I think that's really brave of you to take the high road and funnel all of these issues and problems and trying to find the most positive way to move forward. So I wish you luck figuring it out. Sounds. I'm really grateful my husband left right before me because I was on. I was more on the other side of the spouse's shoes and that where my spouse wanted to leave before me. And I was like, we gotta raise our kids Mormon. What else could there possibly be outside of the church besides this? And it's. Oh, it's a dark place to be in when you're not on the same page with how you're gonna raise your kids. Yeah. So when I told my husband, it was like weeks of him being like, I don't know if I can be with you. I definitely can't have another baby with you because I can't bring another kid into this world where you're going to teach them things that take them off the covenant path. Like, I don't know if we have a future. And we met with the bishop and he asked how we were doing and he asked if we were reading our scriptures and saying our prayers together and even that. I'm like, why do you think you can ask someone that question? Like something that was so normal to me before, Now I'm like, who do you think you are that you can ask me that? Boundaries, dude. Yes. And I was honest with him and said, you know, I'm not actually reading my scriptures right now. I'm diving into church history. I'm reading all the gospel topic essays and the Joseph Smith papers and really diving into that all day, every day. Because I literally spent 12 plus hours a day just studying and studying and listening to all Mormon stories and oh, so much to learn, so much goodness. And my bishop goes, well, where are you gonna go? What other church has what we have? What about your family? Heck, if the church isn't true, I would still stay in the church. I would still believe this.

Host [05:04:59] And that's what your bishop said?

Guest [05:05:01] Yes. Even if it wasn't true. Even if he said, if the prophet got up at general conference and said the church isn't true, the Book of Mormon's not true. Joseph Smith made it up. I would still believe in the church and I would still teach it to my kids because it's safe and it's a good Way to live. And where are you gonna go? What happens to your family if you leave the church? Where else are they going to teach you what we have? And I think that is one of the things that's, like, so scary, like I mentioned for, like, my husband about, if we don't have Mormonism, what do we have? And even something as simple as me figuring out how do I pray now, like, it feels like outside of Mormonism, there's nothing. There's no other way. And that's part of that, like, bubble and that, like, exclusivity of, like, we stay in here, we do this, and everyone outside is immoral and bad, and any teenager that's not Mormon is bad. And one of the things that I think subliminally, like, helped me to even open my eyes to the church potentially not being true was I actually started watching Christian shows and listening to Christian music and realizing, like, whoa, there are people out there besides Mormons who, like, wait until marriage to have sex and who believe in being honest and good and who actually believe in Jesus. Like, I always thought of, like, the Christians who just go to church on, like, Christmas and Easter and they don't actually follow it, right? Like, they don't actually follow rules. They all, you know, drink and smoke and have sex and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, I don't know if you're aware, Mormons, that there is the real possibility that you are in control of your life and you can make moral decisions all on your own without having your bishop or prophet or elders, quorum president or young women's president telling you what to do. Did you know that that's possible? You can believe in God and Jesus and make good moral decisions and raise moral teenagers without being Mormon. It's like they. They don't know that that's a possibility. And in fact, I think those people are way better people than Mormons because it's only the Mormons who've been commenting horrible stuff on my YouTube videos and telling me I'm selfish and prideful and full of sin and full of guilt, blah, blah, blah. It's all the Christians and the non Mormons who are telling me, I'm so proud of you, you're so strong. God's got you. You're amazing. You do what you feel is right. I don't hear any other people, any non Mormons telling me I'm doing something wrong or bad or that I'm on a slippery slope or I'm an apostate. Now I'm going To go sin and make horrible decisions. Yeah, it's only the Mormons who tell me that.

Host [05:07:46] Yeah. And I just have to note, just kind of as we're wrapping up that fear, you know, if we look at the bite model, Stephen Hassan's bite model, bit E is emotions, you know, high demand religions or unhealthy organizations control your behavior. They control the information you receive, they try and control the thoughts you have, and then they use emotion to manipulate you. And fear is a, is a classic emotion that is used to make people afraid. And then if you look at Luna, Lindsay Corbin's sort of Tenants of Undue Influence, and we're doing a series on this right now. Dependence is one of the 31 tools. And, and, and that's what your bishop is a sweet, kind, well intentioned man is basically saying. Your happiness and joy is dependent on Mormonism. And unfortunately, what your bishop doesn't know is that that is a classic move of an abusive partner or spouse. And you, you know, the, the, the abusive partner will beat or physically abuse or psychologically or sexually or emotionally abuse the partner. But they've groomed them into dependence, both physical oftentimes and then oftentimes psychological dependence. And you can just almost guarantee that if you're with an abusive person who's been abusing you, they're going to say to you, you're nothing without me. You can't be happy without me, you can't succeed without me. And I, I'm sure your bishop doesn't realize that that's a classic move of a totally, of a high demand, unhealthy relationship.

Guest [05:09:19] And that's what I did. That's what all my YouTube videos were about. That's literally all I did. And I tried to do it from a place of love, telling people like, you need the church, you need the gospel, you need this. This is what brings you happiness. I made a YouTube video about happiness versus joy, telling people that you are not going to be happy if you do not follow God, follow the commandments, follow the rules of the church, do what you're supposed to do, follow the prophet, you will not be happy. Not true happiness. I, I threatened people's eternal salvation. It was horrible. I said things that were awful. I did that manipulative, abusive crap to people in the name of God. That's sick. I hate that I did that. And I tried to make it right by apologizing in my YouTube video and by making these gospel topic essay videos like, I am not on a rampage on this anti Mormon campaign trying to Take people away from the church and make people hate the church. Because, like, as you can hear, like, I don't hate the church. I do not feel super angry and mad and, like, I want to tear it down. I just want people to have their freedom in their minds to think, to know how to think and to choose for themselves with all the information that is possible presented to them. Do we have every bit of information ever? No, but there's a lot of stuff out there that people do not know. And I just want them to know it so that they can choose for themselves. I do not want people to be in bondage. That's how I feel about so many Mormons. That's how I feel about my husband. Like, he's in bondage. I just want to help him. I wish I could. I wish I could just get people to, like, step outside of this mental gymnastics, this crap in their brain that they're convinced that they have to do all these things. And if they don't do these things, they're screwed and they're broken and they're horrible and God doesn't love them and there's no hope for them in heaven. Like, that's the worst thing. And I know people say, like, well, if you listen to General Conference, the prophet doesn't teach that. The prophet teaches there's a place for everyone at church. And it's like the prophet also said, take your vitamins, repent. The second coming is near. Do it the right thing or else. He. He also said that. And all these mixed messages like that back and forth abusive crap of, you're worthy, you're good, you're loved, you can repent, you can be forgiven. And then also, you're bad, you're dangerous, you're broken, you're evil. This thing that you're doing is so wrong. And you're gonna not make it to the celestial kingdom if you don't do these things. Like, it's so messed up. And I want people's brains and hearts to be freed from that bondage. I want them to be freed from the pain that it causes them because I don't even think they realize how much it's affecting them and what it can feel like to be free of that.

Final Reflections, Apologies, and Looking Forward

Host [05:12:24] So I. I know you've. You've tried to make some apologies on your YouTube video, and you're trying to make amends by educating. I think a really cool place to end would be to have you. Just for any of your listeners who are listening now, what do you want to say to all the people you've influenced into the church, you know, who have been influenced by you. And for all the things that you kind of wish you hadn't said, what. What would you want to say as a final statement

Guest [05:12:55] is that they're. They're loved and they're good and that they are worth so much and so much goodness and that nothing they do changes that. And that they should never listen to anyone who tells them otherwise. And that there is happiness and they deserve happiness. And that I'm sorry if I brought any unhappiness and if I said anything that was hurtful and damaging and that led people to have really scary thoughts. Because I know that people get to really dark places when they're full of shame and guilt. And I don't want anyone to feel like they have this label on them of being broken or terrible or evil or like they're wrong and bad for thinking or feeling or questioning. It's okay. And I just want people to know they're good and that they're capable of amazing things. Our ability as humans, our brains are amazing. The fact that we can think and change what we think, and our hearts have so much room for growing and learning in love, it's amazing. I don't want people to feel trapped in self hatred or feeling like they don't belong and they don't fit in and they're not good enough and like they have to stay in that place in order for safety. I don't want anyone to feel like I have to fit myself into this box and into this mold because this is the only way that I can feel safe and happy. That's not true. I want people to be who they are and to have open minds and hearts for whatever life has to teach them and show them and that there's so much goodness out there for them. And I don't want people to ever feel like they're doomed, that they're not loved, and like they're not good enough and like they're bad. They're not bad. And I hope that people find happiness truly, wherever they are. If that's in the church, out of the church. I want people to know that they're loved. And I want people to feel free to be who they are, and to think and feel as they do.

Host [05:15:11] Beautiful. Amen. Huh?

Guest [05:15:13] Amen, sister.

Host [05:15:16] Well, that was so powerful and moving. What a beautiful way to end. Thank you so much for your vulnerability and your willingness to share your story and be so candid when you have so much to lose. So many People are afraid to be honest, they're afraid to be open or the stakes are just too high. And you have so much more reason just to kind of slither quietly away, even if you stop believing, to just kind of disappear. Because in some sense you have to eat a little bit of crow and say, I was wrong and I'm sorry. Right? But you, you've chosen a path of integrity to say, hey, I, I, I was wrong and I'm sorry and to keep raising your voice.

Guest [05:16:01] I gotta do what I feel is right and I feel like I'm actually doing it this time. And I think people can see that and I hope that they can see that I'm not coming from a place of misery or this is so good. Scary, but it's good worth it.

Host [05:16:18] So your social media going forward, are you gonna stop? Are you gonna keep going? And if you're gonna keep going, what's do you, do you know what direction you're gon it?

Guest [05:16:26] I really just still want to educate people on the church. I'm sure no one will listen to me now. I'm sure all my Mormon subscribers. No way.

Host [05:16:32] That's not true.

Guest [05:16:33] I don't know, we'll see. I think a lot of people are

Host [05:16:36] thousands and thousands of listeners, tens of thousands, right?

Guest [05:16:38] Yes. But I, I'm out now. I don't believe in the Mormon Church anymore. I will not go back to it, I will not follow it, live it, attend. I love people who are, but I'm not a Mormon anymore and I think therefore I lose credibility for people. But I still want to help people and teach them and provide the information to them that they don't know how to get. I'm helping the lazy learners to go through the gospel topic essays and go through all of these footnotes and the Joseph Smith papers and all these journals and showing them all these things that they didn't know and they can do with that information whatever they want. And I think my new path will be like looking at Christianity, like going to Christian churches and constructing new beliefs and new faith and seeing what I believe and I don't know, people are just along for the ride and the journey of wherever life takes me, Wherever, how he's going. Yeah, we'll see. But I'm still going to do YouTube for sure. And my goal, like I said, has always been for people to know that they're not alone because I have felt alone in every step of my life and like no one got it and no one was there for me and I don't Want people to feel like that. I want people to either learn from me or at least feel comfort in knowing that I've felt or experienced similar things. I just want to be there for people. And whether I get it right or whether I get it wrong, my goal is to always just be honest and help people to know they're not alone. And so I'll keep doing that with whatever happens in my life, whether that's religious or about marriage or anything else.

Finding Community and Closing Thoughts

Host [05:18:25] You'd mentioned to me on the phone that maybe you feel alone and that maybe part of the reason you were doing this interview was so you can find some support yourself. Is that. Is that true? Did I mishear that?

Guest [05:18:37] No. Yeah. I'm going.

Host [05:18:38] How can people support you?

Guest [05:18:42] I'm going through the hardest thing I've ever gone through in my life where I. I don't feel any direction. There is no clear path laid out for me. And that's okay. But it's scary because I'm also a control freak who loves plans. And my. My marriage is uncertain, and I like my communities potentially going away entirely. I don't know how people feel about me now. So, yeah, friends for me, friends for my kids, community for us, People who understand me, people who have navigated mixed faith marriages or dealing with sexual problems in the church, and a spouse who struggles with that stuff. And any. Anything anyone can do to be there for me and my kids and help my family and just be a friend. Like, that's. That's what I want because, like, I feel like I'm starting over in life. Part of me feels so old as, like, a married woman with two kids. Like, I got married at 22, but this is, like, a whole new opportunity for me to find new people and lead, like, a new path in life. And I just want to find my tribe, you know, people who accept me and love me for me and people who will be there for me with whatever happens. So you can reach out to me on YouTube. My Instagram account is private, but you can send me a dm. You can request me, and I will accept you if you send me a dm. And if you live in Arizona, I live in Mesa. Reach out and we can get together, play dates, trying different Christian churches together, whatever. Like, I'm down for meeting new people and figuring out whatever life has in store for me.

Host [05:20:39] Well, post Mormon community support. Hallie, I think we. For me, that's been one of the gifts of a faith crisis, is I have better friends, better community than I ever had in the church. People that will be there for you through thick and thin, that. That love you more unconditionally. People that are willing to go deeper, deeper connections. And that's not to minimize other people's experiences in the church. That's just been my experience. So I'm going to say, hey, listeners. Hey, viewers. Reach out to Holly, especially if you're in the, you know, Gilbert Chandler, Mesa Tempe, Queen Creek areas. Reach out and let's rally around someone who's given a lot to us and let's do our best to give something back to her.

Guest [05:21:24] Thank you.

Host [05:21:25] Yeah. And they can follow you where my in. Well, YouTube.

Guest [05:21:30] You can follow me on YouTube. Just type in my name. Hallie Everts. Um, my Instagram account might be changing because my whole little thing was forever. Cause my last name is Everett. So the word forever. Forever. And now I don't know if I'm an Everts. And now I don't know if I'm definitely a Forever Everts. So. So clever. Dang it. Right? It's like that's my brand now. I feel like I need to keep it. But I don't know. My Instagram handle might be changing, but it at the moment is Halle Forever. So I also do have an Instagram account that is public called Forever Honest. And that is where I have been trying to post some of these videos on igtv so that they can be publicly shared. So you can also reach me there. That is a public account. Forever. It's honest. And that's where I'm trying to be honest about where I am in my journey and what's going on.

Host [05:22:22] Beautiful. Well, thank you, Hallie. It's been great to have you here. Thanks for coming all the way and making the effort and we wish you well and maybe we'll have you back to to hear the second part of the story because I get a sense you're just kind of beginning.

Guest [05:22:37] That would be amazing. I. In my dreams and in my best world, I hope that I can come back and have a really awesome story to tell about what happens next.

Host [05:22:46] I think you will.

Guest [05:22:47] Yeah, it'll be both.

Host [05:22:51] And Kara Nuance Oats. We're getting so many positive comments about you being on the show and your contributions and the Tick Tock channel that you've mentored me on is is doing well at Dr. John Dehlin and you've been also kind of managing the Mormon Stories podcast. TikTok Channel that's actually doing super well. So it's been so fun so far to have you with us. Thank you. Yeah.

Guest [05:23:17] And as I was listening to your story, Holly, and you had so many good, positive, impactful moments. I think that people will resonate with a lot of your raw emotion, vulnerability that is kind of rare in somebody that we don't usually get interviews with. Somebody so close to, you know, reading the CS letter, so close to deconstructing their faith. So thanks for coming up. Your interview, it's really, I think it's going to be really impactful. Hope so. I think so.

Host [05:23:43] Yeah. All right. Well, listeners, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We couldn't do this without your support. So thank you to everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories podcast. Thank you. Unfortunately, we are always losing donors. We lost a couple today. People, their financial situations change. They just lose interest and move on. There are all sorts of reasons why people stop becoming donors and that's great. We actually view it as healthy when people decide that they need to move on and to be able to continue to do. We do be able to have Kara and her support. Gerardo supporting with all the cinematography stuff he supports with our editor or audio video editor, Brooklyn. All the equipment, the rentals, just all the expenses requires your support. And so if you love this programming, if you value it, if you want to see continue, we would really appreciate it if you could go up to MormonStories gmail.com, click on the donate button at the top of the page. Become a monthly donor. We promise to be careful with your contributions. We're transparent in our finances. Everything is tax deductible in the US and we promise to use the widow's might, all the, you know, whatever you support us with. We promise to use towards making our programing better. We've made all sorts of positive improvements. Increasing, you know, improving our cameras, improving our lighting, improving the editing, starting a TikTok channel, getting some help with care and others. We've been able to do that because of your support. So if you'll please continue to keep supporting us, we'll keep bringing you the best, the most important, the top stories around Mormonism and the most interesting and fascinating guests like Haile today. So thanks for your support. Please continue or please start. Be good to each other, support each other, love each other, be kind to each other and most importantly, just build your own authority within, become your own internal authority. Be the best you you can be and never give up your power authority to anyone again. That's my advice. And Hallie, you're an inspiration.

Guest [05:25:49] Thanks. I hope so.

Host [05:25:50] All right, you take care.

Guest [05:25:51] Thank you.

Host [05:25:52] Thanks, everybody. See you again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

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