Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. We are recording here at the Mormon Stories Podcast studios in Holiday, Utah. And I could not be more excited for my guests today. My guests are Linda and Savannah Clyde. Hey, guys.

Guest [00:00:17] Hey.

Linda Clyde [00:00:18] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Welcome. Thanks so much for joining us.

Linda Clyde [00:00:20] It's good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] I don't expect that a ton of you will know who Linda and Savannah Clyde are. I learned about Linda first a month or two ago when I learned that Linda had worked for five years for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, lds.org, mormon.org as a copywriter in, I think, what she describes as their marketing department. But it's really writing headlines and title and copy for LDS.org, mormon.org and many other Internet assets and other things that we'll learn about today. But it's interesting to think about it. Sometimes you can look at the church through a corporate lens, kind of like it's a corporation. And sometimes you can look at its different business units as units of the business. And if you look at it that way, and I think Linda characterizes it that way, she worked for the marketing arm of the LDS Church, so she has a lot of insider perspective and information about how they think about the messages that they share with members in the world, the headlines, search engine optimization, and just how they get the message out to the world and market the product market, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But that's not the only reason we're interviewing Linda. I stumbled also on her. Someone recommended her TikTok channel to me. She has a TikTok channel where she has been sharing her experiences as a Mormon and her experiences working with the church. And it's just a. It's a lovely, thoughtful and fun TikTok channel. And of course, Mormon Stories Podcast is working to become involved on all the platforms where we can help get the message out and fulfill the mission of the Open Stories foundation, which is to help provide informed consent for current, past and future potential members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We think everybody should know the truth about the church. And then, of course, the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories Podcast wants to help people who are in a faith transition or. Or who have left the church. We want to help them find healing, growth and community in or out of the church. We just want to fill the voids that the church is not able to support. So as I stumbled upon Linda's TikTok channel, learned about her story I thought it would. It'd be really cool to have her in to tell her story, but that's not it. As I learned more about Linda's story, I also learned about Savannah. And it turns out Savannah. Savannah's 19 years old. Is that right, Savannah? And Savannah was an important part of Linda's journey, helping Linda see the Mormon church, the church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, more clearly. And Savannah's got her own story of sort of being a teen, middle school and high school in Utah county, and what that was like for her. And so this is just one of the types of Mormon stories podcast episodes I love. Most are kind of parent, child, mother, daughter sort of stories. Kind of like, you know, Leah and Cody Young and Brinley Young and so many others. The. The Hackings and their son Kyle, Donna Showalter and. And her son Michael. Just, we. We love those types of stories. And so, guys, I'm just so excited to have you here. Did I get anything wrong in the introduction?

Savannah Clyde [00:03:28] No, it's great.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] Anything you want to add or correct?

Linda Clyde [00:03:31] No, it's great. No, it's a great introduction.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Okay. All right. And of course, we are so excited to have with us in studio Kara Burrell.

Guest [00:03:42] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] Kara Burrell has. Has been working with us now for a month or two. She does so many important things for us, including here in studio, producing these episodes, helping with the cameras and the audio time codes. Now, we just want to make sure everybody understands that for all YouTube videos going forward, we provide time codes in the description for where you can actually see an outline of what we're going to be talking about and jump to certain sections of the interview, either to go back and see things you really liked or to jump forward or back to parts you want to review. So care helps with those time codes. She provides important, insightful, funny, witty, thoughtful commentary. And that's in addition to the support of Brooklyn Alden, who does our editing, and Gerardo, who does our cinematography and our thumbnails. Because of your support, we are able to do so much more now in the Open Stories foundation with Mormon Stories. But, Kara, it's just so great to have you with us.

Guest [00:04:45] Yeah, it's been so much fun working for you, John, and working with Gerardo in Brooklyn and meeting the guests and interviewing. And I was just chatting with our lovely guest here. I think this is gonna be a really good one. I think everyone should buckle up. It's gonna be very insightful. I can tell already these are two very intelligent ladies.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Absolutely. All right. Yeah. So without any further Ado, we are going to jump into Linda and Savannah's story and this is going to be one of those, you know, multi hour, three to four hour kind of interviews. But I promise you it's going to be worth it. So how's that for a build up?

Savannah Clyde [00:05:18] There you go.

Linda's Mormon Origins and Family Background

John Dehlin [00:05:23] All right, Linda, well, let's start. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Linda Clyde [00:05:27] My Mormon story begins in Utah County.

Savannah Clyde [00:05:30] Born and raised there.

Linda Clyde [00:05:33] I was born in Payson and raised Mormon. Kind of, I will kind of put kind of in there. Just because my mom was more of a believer. My dad had his questions back in the 80s. My dad attended BYU and the religion classes really put him off.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] Really? Yeah, he was there when I was there. Honestly.

Linda Clyde [00:05:56] Probably it would have been early 80s. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] I was there late 80s.

Linda Clyde [00:06:00] Okay. So sometime around there. Yeah, so. So I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] Did he get a faith? Did he have a faith crisis?

Linda Clyde [00:06:07] You know, he didn't talk to us about it a lot, but he was very antagonistic, I'll say that much toward the church and, and as a young kid, it really affected my relationship with him too, because I was, I was born kind of believer. I just, you know, going to church for me was, I loved the stories. I loved primary. I loved God, I loved Jesus. I loved Joseph Smith. I loved Joseph Smith. I identified with Joseph Smith in many ways. I just felt like, you know, I spiritually, you know, I thought, okay, I would, I would be one to go and kneel in a forest grove and pray and actually believe that I was receiving, you know, a response to a prayer. So I don't know. It wasn't hard for me to follow the Joseph Smith story. And I was, I really identified with what I was told about Joseph Smith early on

John Dehlin [00:07:00] with your dad. So I'm assuming he met your. Did he meet your mom at byu and did your mom know that he was struggling and did they get married in the temple? Tell us about what you know about their courtship prior.

Linda Clyde [00:07:15] Okay, so my mom did not go to college and she. That's one of her biggest regrets, actually. So my dad was. He did the whole BYU thing, graduated in construction management. But they met. They were high school sweethearts. My husband and I are also high school sweethearts. So they couldn't say anything to us when.

Savannah Clyde [00:07:37] Long life.

Linda Clyde [00:07:38] Yeah, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. But yeah, so I don't know that she really knew full on. But they were married civilly first. And when, I think when my mom was expecting my oldest sister, she. They went through the temple at that point. And I don't really remember hearing any stories or any negativity about their temple experience. They didn't attend the temple. We weren't super active growing up. My mom made sure we went through all the rites and rituals as kids, and my dad actually performed all the rites and rituals. So he was in enough to do that to bless and baptize all of us. So things started to change a little bit once I got to be. Once we started getting married, you know, that was. And I don't know what he was reading during all of that time, but we weren't ones that really did follow the family home evening. We didn't have family prayer. We didn't have. We were often known as the inactives in the ward. And I often felt that growing up, I knew that when specific young women were reaching out to me that it was a fellowshipping thing. And I was grateful to them and I was appreciative that they would reach out to me. But I did feel a little bit othered growing up, and I think that my sisters felt the same way too. So I don't know, we just didn't really talk a whole lot, especially with my dad, we didn't talk a whole lot about religion, but we knew that there was conflict because if we ever did talk much about it, he would kind of shut it down pretty quick. You know, if we were ever talking about, I don't know, testimonies or talking about the church, it would ruffle his feathers. We knew that much that it would upset him. So as we got to be more.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] If you talked positively about the church, it would upset your dad. So. So, like, this is, you know, most of the people that we interview, a Mormon Stories podcast, are raised in these hyper orthodox, super faithful. And so this is really Mormon families. This is super interesting.

Guest [00:09:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] So I guess you don't. You don't know or you didn't know if your dad just didn't believe, if your mom did or didn't believe, if they were just cultural Mormons to fit the mold, but privately had doubts. Did you have any idea why you guys were lukewarm Mormons growing up in Utah County? Right? Is Pace in Utah County?

Linda Clyde [00:10:02] Yeah, Payson is Utah County. We weren't actually in Payson. I grew up in Spanish Fork.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] Oh, Spanish Fork.

Linda Clyde [00:10:07] But I was born in Payson. So my mom would talk to us a lot about church. My mom taught me to pray. My mom would talk to us about religion. She would answer our questions, she would encourage us to go to church. And if we were going to church, she was the instigator. She was the one that was taking us. I do remember my dad being there sometimes, but it was always. He was always bored out of his mind and trying to entertain. Trying to entertain us. I remember. I don't know if anybody ever did that hand thing where you, like, sit with each other and you push all the blood out of your hand, and then you pretend to pull a string out of the middle of your hand and the blood rushes back in. My dad did that with. That's my memory of my dad. Or, like, circle all the time in church is just kind of playing with our. Playing with our hands and playing little tricks and Tim telling us little jokes. And it was never like, engaging with what was being spoken over the pulpit, really. And so I had so much cognitive dissonance as a kid because I was. I was getting. As a little kid, I was getting these two really strong messages, you know, pro church, which I really, really identified with. And then, you know, my dad's really antagonistic view. And for me, as a young kid, all I could do is look at my dad and think, dad, why? What's wrong with you? Dad, you know, why aren't you being a priesthood leader? Why aren't you doing, you know, A, B, C and D that we were taught to do? And so it's tough. It, like, really damaged my relationship with him as a young kid.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] So.

Linda Clyde [00:11:36] And I remember once, like, just to kind of as an example of. Of when the cognitive dissonance was really strong, just a memory, as I remember driving in the car with my family, and my parents were in the front seat, I was in the back and with my sisters, and my dad was. My mom and dad started having a conversation about Joseph Smith, and my dad started to kind of go off on Joseph Smith. And I remember, like, breaking down sobbing in the backseat because I did not know what to do with the information. I was. I loved Joseph Smith. I loved the story. And I thought, how could anybody hate Joseph Smith? It was tough. It was really, really tough. And I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know who to turn to. My mom was kind. My mom would listen, but I don't feel like she could really help me. She was. My mom has always been sandwiched between. She was sandwiched between her parents because her dad was not really a believer, and her mom was a believer. So she was sandwiched, too. Her whole life, she's been kind of stuck in the middle, and so Again, here she is in this situation. She's got her husband, she's got to keep the peace with her husband, you know, but yet, kind of just in case it's true, she feels like she has to teach her kids the truth. So she was in a tough position. Position. So she would help me, she would talk things through with me. I did have a grandmother that I would turn to who was super stalwart Mormon. And she kind of gave me the special complex. She told me that I was special because I was so spiritual, because I was such a believer as a kid. And so that's where I got value was from my grandma, because I wasn't really getting it at home. I didn't. So anyway, I just really identified with that spirituality and that was praised through my grandma. My relationship with my dad was really rough growing up. I couldn't connect with him. And you don't want to feel like your dad's bad, you know, But I had a lot of those moments where it's like I just hated him because he wouldn't. I was like. Because it was. Church was good for me. Everything about it seemed good and wonderful and I felt good when I was there. So the. The non conformity of my dad was really, really difficult as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] So that's so hard to be split from your parents.

Linda Clyde [00:13:53] Yeah. Especially being.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] And it's hard how. You know, usually this comes at the end of a story when an interviewee enters into a mixed faith marriage.

Growing Up in a Mixed-Faith Family

Linda Clyde [00:14:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] But you were born into a mixed faith, you know, with mixed faith parents.

Linda Clyde [00:14:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] And I could just imagine the tension is.

Linda Clyde [00:14:12] Yeah, yeah, the tension was really tough. I remember once, and I know that my sisters felt the same just because we were going to church, we were being indoctrinated. And so, you know, we all wanted to save dad. You know, we all wanted to help dad figure it out. And once my sister and I remember going down to. Once she could drive. Going down to a store with her, like a church bookstore. I can't remember what it was. Probably a desert book. And it was some kind of church bookstore. And trying to find just the right book that would help my dad, that he might, like, he might listen to, he might find something in it that would help him see and understand, you know, that the church was true and that's what he needed to do. Help him live up to his covenants, you know, all of these things that we were being indoctrinated with. So we spent hours. I just remember just her and I just poring over all these Books. And we finally settled on a book by Von J. Featherstone and it was a book about Jesus Christ. And I thought, we thought, okay, this is safe because we, we clearly were able to pick up at that point that, that it was a lot of the church leaders that he had trouble with. So if we focused on Jesus Christ, that that was probably something that was safe. We wrapped it up and gave it to him, you know, as a gift. And he opened it up and I, and I feel sad sharing this because I know he would be sad to hear this now, but he just looked at it and just said, what is this? You know, sat it down. I was like, I don't want this. And it crushed us, you know, because we were just, we just wanted to help. We just wanted to feel that connection, that spiritual connection with dad. So it was especially hard on me. I don't haven't talked to my sister about that for years, but there were a lot of moments like that growing up that were really hard. So just being sandwiched in a home like that, I did have people that I, I turned to.

Savannah Clyde [00:16:09] But

Linda Clyde [00:16:12] yeah, like I said, grandma, I had a grandma that I turned to a lot that was really helpful during those times. But it never went away. It was a hard house, a hard roof, roof to live under because there was constant contention over religion in our home.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] So yeah, the tough, I mean the church, I think the church, Mormon church really believes that families are the most important thing. And it often leads in marketing with this idea that families are the most important thing, that families are eternal and that the whole purpose of life is families.

Guest [00:16:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] And so we all are raised thinking that oh well that's what the church does, it strengthens families. But now, you know, for the past 10 or 20 years I've been realizing that it doesn't always strengthen families.

Linda Clyde [00:16:57] No, no. And I think that that's kind of where I'm at now. I mean I won't jump forward but looking back, it's never united my family, just from the very beginning. And even my grandparents story, I'm named after my grandparents baby. They lost a baby when she was an infant and her name was Linda. I was named after her. And their story, religion also kind of was a dividing thing for them as well. And my grandma clung to religion because she believed that that was the only way she was ever going to see that baby again. And the loss of the baby made their marriage really hard. But my grandma was often a little bit difficult to live with because of how strict she lived it and her expectations around religion, but a lot of it stemmed from that grief and that indoctrination, the belief that in order to be with that baby again and raise that baby in the next life, she had to follow A, B, C and D. You know, and that's a pretty motivating factor to keep people in, to keep people, you know, following and doing everything that they're told to do. You know, just the way that the church gets into every family relationship, you know, between my grandma and her baby, my grandma and her marriage, you know, between my dad and my mom, between my dad and all of us sisters. So it's, I'm losing patience with, with how much it's been involved in my family and my family relationships. I'm tired.

Savannah Clyde [00:18:50] So.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] So how did your childhood and teen years progress?

Linda Clyde [00:18:56] Well, I loved the church through, through childhood, through my teen years. Teen years were I, like I said, I married my high school sweetheart. So my husband was a part of my life starting. I knew him from sixth grade on. But we were, we were friends until about our sophomore year in high school. And we, we were both active. His family is far more, more active than mine ever was. Vanna can attest to that. Very active, very Mormon. But his family has their own things too. So he and I, we believed, we wanted to, you know, our plan was to get married in the temple. And I feel like for me, I was seeking somebody that would be the things that my dad wasn't, maybe subconsciously I wanted, I wanted a priesthood holder. I wanted all the things that I thought were going to make everything better.

Savannah Clyde [00:20:01] So.

Linda Clyde [00:20:02] But we, we did not really follow the, the typical path either. He decided that he did not want to serve an LDS mission. Once we hit kind of that senior, the senior year, he didn't want to. And we were broke up for a C, our senior year for a little while. And that's kind of when he really made that decision. And he got a lot of backlash from making that decision. Most of it came when he decided that he was going to get married at such a young age. We got married the October after we graduated high school. So super young.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] So let me just ask, so you guys met, you met at what age?

Linda Clyde [00:20:40] We were in sixth grade when we met. So we were really good friends all the way up until about our sophomore year and then we started dating.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] And did you, did he communicate in those, let's just say early high school years that he was that super faithful, you know, kid that would be the non dad, you know, that would be the not your dad.

Linda Clyde [00:21:02] I felt confident. We, we liked to talk about, about spiritual things. He was very open to talking about all of those things. I don't know that he communicated that he was going to be the poster boy for sure. He was the oldest in his family, so I know that he did feel some pressures there. He knew the expectation that was there to go on a mission. His dad did serve a mission, but his mom raised the kids a lot alone because his dad worked for W.W. clyde and was out of town a lot. So was kind of just home on the weekends. So his dad wasn't necessarily the strongest example with pushing missions. So I don't know that clearly it didn't really stick. He decided that that wasn't going to be for him, that he didn't want to go. But he had people say, you know, we've invested so much in you. You know, he was Eagle Scout at like age 13. He was, he went to church every single week. They were active. I ended, I did go to church with them sometimes when, when we were in high school just because my family wasn't super active. So yeah, so he, I, as far as, you know, promising to be that I, I felt confident that he would be better at that than your dad, than my dad had been.

John Dehlin [00:22:24] And it's just so, it's unfortunate that in these. This is one of the biggest tragedies of a mixed faith marriage.

Linda Clyde [00:22:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] Well, it's. The kids view the non believing parent as a disappointment or as a failure or as inadequate. And then I'm just thinking about how you're trying to find a boyfriend that won't be your dad and what that's like for your dad and what that's like for your relationship with your dad.

Linda Clyde [00:22:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] And just how that can. Sometimes we talk about how people can be bitter, like non believers can be bitter or angry. I just wonder what it would be like not to say that your dad's was perfect or that, you know, that their white hats and black hats. But just what does it do to live year after year after year where someone in a family feels like a constant disappointment to everyone, including their own

Guest [00:23:16] children or like you're focusing on what they're not instead of everything that they are.

Linda Clyde [00:23:19] Yeah.

Guest [00:23:20] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:23:20] And I have so much guilt now.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] No, no, no. And I'm not trying to rub that.

Linda Clyde [00:23:24] No, no, no, no, no. That's just me. Like it was, I know that it was really hard for him and I can have compassion for that now. I have a lot of compassion for that now. I couldn't at the time, I just was so angry. So angry at him for. For just so much. Just. I. And. And I think part of that too is just he. He lacked a lot of tact when he would say something. So that's a lot.

Savannah Clyde [00:23:50] That's a lot.

Linda Clyde [00:23:51] That's a lot. Just personality, you know, he's just blunt, and that's okay. Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] But also, like, some people in your position would have tried to find the biggest Peter priesthood in this high school to make sure that history wouldn't repeat itself. Yeah, it sounds like you kind of tried, but you also just had a best friend.

Linda Clyde [00:24:15] I married my dad. In many ways, though.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] We do that. We do that sometimes, right?

Guest [00:24:21] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:24:22] And my husband is super, super driven. It just they're. They're a lot alike in many, many ways. My husband is. Just. Has better social skills, in some ways, better people skills. He's less blunt and he's more soft spoken, and that's really what I needed the most. So I accepted the fact that he did not want to go on a mission, and I kind of embraced that

John Dehlin [00:24:47] early on because his reason, again, was.

Linda Clyde [00:24:49] Was what he didn't want to and I think.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] But he believed.

Linda Clyde [00:24:53] Yeah, he was a believer, but I feel like I've always steered the religion bus for us very much so. Yeah, Vanna can attest to that, that he is very. But his dad is rather passive too. So his example was pretty passive when it came to that. His mom leads and drives the religion bus too, in their home, I think, for the most part. So that was normal and familiar to him too. I was familiar. Me driving the. Driving the religion bus. That's just what came to mind. So, yeah, so he was okay with it, and I, I was all right with him not going on a mission for multiple reasons. One, we. I'm gonna just put it out there.

Guest [00:25:36] We.

Linda Clyde [00:25:36] We were sexually active before. Before we. We got married. And that was a. That was a tough thing too, especially when people found out that we weren't getting sealed in the temple right off the bat. It was like, oh, my gosh, she's pregnant. Everybody was like, oh, she must be pregnant.

Guest [00:25:55] Here we go.

Linda Clyde [00:25:56] You know, I didn't. I mean, clearly we didn't feel worthy to go to the temple at that point, but it wasn't like, that was not a goal for us. That was something that we wanted to do that we'd talked about. That was definitely the direction I was steering us toward, and he was fine with that. But the worthiness issue there was. Was really difficult for me. Too feeling worthy to go to the temple. That took, that took a long time to get to that point. We were married for a couple of years before, before we got to that point. We were ready to go to the temple.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] But this is a, this is a tough question and I, I hope it comes across the way I intend it. But so knowing that your parents had so much conflict, knowing that at the time your dad was such a disappointment, knowing the life. And this is not a shaming question, it's a question to help others understand mindsets.

Linda Clyde [00:26:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Because it's very human and developmentally normal what, what you were doing. Right.

Linda Clyde [00:27:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] But tell us what that was like in your brain to, to not want to have the marriage your parents had, to not want to have the husband that your, your dad was to your mom and yet to maybe not be fully living the church's standards. What was that like for you in your mind at the time, like living that conflict?

Linda Clyde [00:27:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] And again, what you were doing is perfectly normal for me.

Linda Clyde [00:27:32] I think what was driving really Indiana, even on a very subconscious level, what was driving my decision making with getting married so young and following that path which was very similar to my own parents, was I wanted out of my parents home. The conflict there was very difficult for me and my, and my husband getting married. That was the only way I saw out because I didn't see it as a. I, I didn't, I didn't really envision myself as a college student or I had this. I was going to be a Mormon mommy. You know, that's really the paradigm that I had. I never even considered anything else. Never considered it. Which, and maybe it was just the example that I had of my mom. My mom didn't, Wasn't a college grad, you know, that I was just following the pattern that it had been set for me. So I don't know that I was thinking about it super. I mean, I wanted my husband to be. Maybe I felt like I could shape him some on a subconscious level, you know, that he was, he was kinder, more soft spoken and he would listen and we were very close. So I think that maybe that there was a part of me that felt like I could, I could shape him and he wasn't opposed to the church in the way that my dad was. So there was a future for us. It seemed like a step up in some ways. Yeah. In the religion ways. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:29:00] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:29:04] So, yeah.

Faith, Seminary, and High School Years

John Dehlin [00:29:07] What was your, what was your testimony like in high school? I'm assuming you went to release time seminary I did in high school. What was your developing faith like? Was it Bruce Armaconki, like Mormonism? Was it. Was it, you know, was doctrine important to you? Were scriptures important to you? What was your prayer life like? All that.

Linda Clyde [00:29:26] Okay, so I think where I didn't grow up in a home that was immersed in doctrine, I was getting all of my doctrine from church and occasionally when I decided to. From General Conference. So in a way, I wasn't indoctrinated in the same way that families are. That have, you know, your family home evening that are doing the A, B, C and D. I didn't really have that. I was dependent on Sundays to get my doctorate. But as far as my. My prayer life and my. My. I developed a really strong connection with the idea of God just because of the. The dissonance that I experienced all the time. I was always trying to turn to some. Somewhere for comfort. And so I had a relationship with. With God that I. And that was kind of something I felt like was getting me through those years. Um, so I didn't identify. And this may have.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] God helped you. Um, how did a belief in God help you?

Linda Clyde [00:30:31] I think that prayer, I think it was just comforting. It was comforting to feel like there was a source, there was something there that could see what was happening in my life and in my home and. But still kind of was there, like just. Just believing that there was something that was there that could see the pain, that could see each one of us and believe that it knew what was going on with my dad, what was going on with me, with my mom, that could see all the pain, but could stay constant and be there and

Savannah Clyde [00:31:04] love all of us.

Linda Clyde [00:31:07] So I clung to that a lot.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] So a lot of prayer.

Savannah Clyde [00:31:11] Prayer.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] Did you feel like he answered your prayers?

Linda Clyde [00:31:15] Um, sometimes, yes. Yeah. I felt like there was a time or two where I had, you know, those strong spiritual experiences. Um, and I don't know that I necessarily. I don't know how I feel about those now. I'm still sorting some of those things out. But. But I did feel comforted. I did feel comforted by. By going that route. And I was, you know, and I was also being promised at church if I did go that route that, you know, that was kind of reinforcement for the God belief. But being able to separate God from religion for me was really, really important later on that I had that kind of an early age.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] I'm just thinking to a kid who's got so much tension in the home and a dad, she feels mixed things about to have this all powerful, all loving, unconditionally loving Heavenly Father.

Linda Clyde [00:32:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:11] It's always there to support you and encourage you and lead you on, listen to you and to help you whenever you need it. That's how. Is that not in many ways a very healing and a. And empowering thing?

Linda Clyde [00:32:25] Yeah, yeah, it was super empowering. And it's really. I know a lot of people who have daddy issues have a hard time believing in God, you know, Heavenly Father, because their own father wasn't those things. But it does show that my dad did a good job in a lot of ways. Like, he was a good dad and is a good dad. Gosh, I hate being so emotional. Yeah. So definitely was able to retain a feeling that God was there. A lot of good, good feelings as far as believing that God was there. But the doctrine,

John Dehlin [00:33:03] like the church being true and the Book of Mormon being true, those sorts of things.

Linda Clyde [00:33:06] I swallow all of that. Just.

John Dehlin [00:33:08] What do you mean?

Linda Clyde [00:33:08] I mean, I. I believed it. I didn't really study the scriptures a lot as a kid, but like I. I said, I did go through primary. I went all the way through church, young women's program. I did seminary, so I did study the Scriptures as much as I had to. I don't think that back then we were required to read the Scriptures in the way that they require now in seminary. So I got through it and I picked up plenty of doctrine along the way, and I. And I swallowed it all. I did believe it all, though. I think that early on, I. Because of my dad, I had a more ingrained nature of asking why. It felt a lot more normal for me to ask why and to question, and that that was okay because my dad did it. So I was able to see both sides of, you know, being in or being out. I knew what that looked like for people because I lived it. I was, you know, I lived it.

Savannah Clyde [00:34:12] That's.

Linda Clyde [00:34:12] That was my life. I grew up in that. You know, seeing what it looks like for people and loving people. I think that's the important part is loving my dad and seeing what it was like for him. Loving my mom, seeing what it was like for her. It gave me a really, I feel like now a very unique perspective. Just because my family was not a stalwart, they were not devout, and that perspective is what. I think. It served me well later on working for the church because I was able to reach a broader audience.

John Dehlin [00:34:41] You had empathy for all types of people.

Linda Clyde [00:34:44] I was able to write for. For everyone.

Law of Chastity, Repentance, and the Bishop

John Dehlin [00:34:48] So how did you handle repentance with Your bishop and law of chastity, because you were. You guys. For those who aren't Mormon, law of chastity is the law that basically says no sexual relations at all of any sort before marriage. Yeah, you guys, you. You've been vulnerable and honest enough to admit you guys are sexually active, which I don't think is unheard of within. Within Utah County. Mormonism or any type of Mormonism or anywhere in the world.

Guest [00:35:17] But.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] Yeah, but we're taught as Mormons, if. If you're a teenager and you sin, I'm saying that in air quotes for those listening, then you have to go repent to your bishop.

Linda Clyde [00:35:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:27] So how did you handle that?

Linda Clyde [00:35:29] Well, where we married civilly right out of. Right out of high school, even before.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Even in high school.

Linda Clyde [00:35:38] I do remember going to a bishop once and confessing. My mom drove me to this appointment, which was really interesting to think back on too, because she's like, why. Why do you need to go. You know, why. Why do you need to go and talk to the bishop? Why? You know, I said, mom, I've just done some things that I need to. I need to clear up. I need to talk about. And she is so interesting now, looking back. You don't need to do this. She said that you don't need to do this.

John Dehlin [00:36:07] You don't need to talk to the bishop.

Linda Clyde [00:36:08] She says, you don't need to do this. He doesn't need to know. Yeah, go, grandma. He doesn't need to know. And she says, you really, really don't need to do this. But I was insistent that I needed to go in. I remember sitting in the car with her before I walked inside.

Guest [00:36:23] How old were you?

Linda Clyde [00:36:24] I was. I had to have been 17 or 18.

Guest [00:36:28] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:36:29] Yeah. So she was telling me, no, don't. Don't do it.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Why'd you do it anyway? Why did you feel like you needed to do it anyway?

Linda Clyde [00:36:36] I'd been told I needed to do it. And I felt. And I did feel shame. I felt ashamed. And I understood the repentance process, and I believed in it and I had faith in it. And I did connect it enough with God that I wanted to be right with God. That was really, really a motivating factor for me. Just because I felt close to God. I didn't want God to have anything that he was upset with me for. So, yes, even if it was hard, I was gonna do it. I did. I went in and sat down with that bishop, who I barely knew because we weren't super active. So that was a Little bit difficult.

John Dehlin [00:37:07] Were you alone?

Savannah Clyde [00:37:08] Alone?

John Dehlin [00:37:09] You were how old?

Savannah Clyde [00:37:10] Yes.

Linda Clyde [00:37:10] 17, maybe.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] 17 year old woman with a bishop?

Linda Clyde [00:37:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:37:15] 16 or 17 doors? Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [00:37:17] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:37:17] Yes. I think it was on a weekday, I think. I don't think that there was really even anybody else in the building. And I don't remember if my mom waited for me. I assume she did, but I was within walking distance of the church, so I don't really remember that part. But I do remember the conversation before going in. But yeah, I mean, he did ask detailed questions. He wanted to know, you know, and I just said, you know, I just, I don't remember. I do remember. I naturally remember being uncomfortable with what he asked. But he, and he did ask types

John Dehlin [00:37:49] of detailed questions that you probably won't remember perfectly.

Linda Clyde [00:37:52] He wanted to know specifically what, you know, what sexual acts, you know, that we had, we had done. And I, I told him as much as I felt comfortable and until he kind of was, was, seemed satisfied. And I do remember him giving me the miracle of forgiveness that was handed to me and I did take it home and I spent some time reading it. So yeah, more shame, more shame there.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] Did you read that book? And a lot of our, A lot of our listeners won't. You know, we did a, we did an episode, I did an episode on the miracle forgiveness and the teachings in it. Do you want to. For those who have never been Mormon or haven't read the book, do you remember anything from the book?

Linda Clyde [00:38:40] I don't remember a lot of details of it. I just perused it. It just, I'll just.

John Dehlin [00:38:46] Can I jump in?

Linda Clyde [00:38:47] Yeah, please.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] It basically says that having any sexual, having extramarital sexual relations is next to murder in severity. It also says that, you know, being gay is caused by masturbating. It says that being gay is an abomination is disgusting and revolting. Like, yeah, it, but, but, but for a kid in your situation, it basically says that you're. There's like murder. And then like right under that is what you and your, you is you murderers. And then right under there is Linda.

Linda Clyde [00:39:19] Yeah, yeah, her boyfriend. So clearly I didn't read all the book and I didn't absorb it because I didn't remember all of those details. I just thought, okay, I did my job. I went in and I confessed and I did what I was supposed to do. And then I got back on my it's me and you God bandwagon. You know, I did that was. I checked that off of my list. And as I'm thinking about it, Now I'm. I'm thinking, hey, the timeline is not right for that interview because that interview was younger. I was not confessing things with my husband on that interview that was actually a little bit younger. And I'd done something with a different boy. Not sex, not full on sex, but there was some petting that had happened that I had felt guilty about. So I'm like, that was that interview. Because confessing what I did with my husband came at least a year and a half, two years into our marriage.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] So you didn't tell the bishop at the time.

Linda Clyde [00:40:11] There was no reason we were getting married civilly. We.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] No, I mean in that interview.

Savannah Clyde [00:40:15] In that interview.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] Told you not to go into you.

Linda Clyde [00:40:17] I did tell. I did tell what I had done everything.

Guest [00:40:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:40:20] I did.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] And yeah. Did the bishop help you?

Linda Clyde [00:40:23] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Make it better?

Linda Clyde [00:40:24] No. No, I didn't feel like it was better at all.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] You leave it with you.

Linda Clyde [00:40:30] From what I remember, you know, he's like, you know, thank, you know, basically, thank you for coming in. You've done, you know, you've. You've done the first step going over the, the four steps of repentance, you know, which was I. I'm trying to remember if it was, you know, acknowledge the sin, confess it, confess it, forsake it, and never do it again. And I didn't do so great with it. I'll do it again. I was a human being with feelings and emotions and drives. So. So yeah, so I feel like I left that with. Okay, I checked it off. I checked off. I did what I was supposed to do.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] So you didn't feel horrible though? He didn't make you feel horrible?

Linda Clyde [00:41:07] No.

Guest [00:41:07] Okay, good.

Linda Clyde [00:41:08] No, I don't remember feeling horrible. I remember feeling very, very uncomfortable during that interview, but not. I don't remember feeling additional shame more. Any more than I already felt.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Did you leave wishing you had listened to your mom or. No, you said you felt glad you did it.

Linda Clyde [00:41:25] Yeah, I was the driving force for that. It was Elmi. That was. I. I should have listened to my mom. How many times does a kid grow up saying that? Every once in a while.

Savannah Clyde [00:41:38] Not super often.

Linda Clyde [00:41:41] Yeah. So. So, yeah. Let's see. Where do we go from here? Yeah, that was the only. I've only had a couple of confession interviews, so.

Goals and Expectations After High School

John Dehlin [00:41:52] But so you, by the time you graduate from high school, what's life looking like? What are your goals? What are your, you know.

Linda Clyde [00:41:59] Oh, man. Okay, so I grew up with not a super strong self esteem and kind of being maybe not verbally told but just kind of treated like my capacity was a mother, that I didn't necessarily have the intellectual capacity. I followed this 4.0 awesome, academically inclined sister. And so I always grew up kind of feeling a little bit inferior to her. And so I was kind of treated, you know, like, pat on the head, you're going to be a great mom. You know? And so I didn't really believe that there was a lot out there for me other than motherhood. So I remember sitting in high school and having kind of one of those interviews with the counselor where you're talking about college and your future and, and him saying, okay, so, you know, what college do you want to go to? What are you thinking you want to do? And I was like, I think I'm just going to be a beautician. And he was like, what? You know, no, no, no, no, no, don't. Don't just settle for that. You can do more. And I was like, no, no, no, no. And I was like, oh, my gosh, she's gonna find out that I'm stupid. No, I'm just. I just need to be. I just need to be a hairstylist. That's what I'm gonna do. And so he couldn't, he couldn't even talk me out of, like, this plan.

Savannah Clyde [00:43:13] This plan.

Linda Clyde [00:43:13] I just needed to be a mom that was safe. That was what I had capacity for. So just, I grew up with kind of a low self esteem, and part of that was just following a. A really academically amazing sister. And then just intelligence was really, really encouraged and praised in my home. And I was praised for how well I did my hair. So that's what I was gonna be. So I was gonna be a mom that just looked cute. I was gonna be your typical Mormon mommy.

Guest [00:43:43] All these years later, you're on camera and your hair looks fabulous.

Savannah Clyde [00:43:45] Thank you.

Guest [00:43:46] And all paid off. End interview.

Linda Clyde [00:43:48] Just kidding. Yeah, so, yeah, that was my agenda. I was going to go to beauty school. Parents paid for. They had us pay for all of it. And then to encourage me to finish, they said that they would reimburse half of it when I was done. So I finished beauty school in a year and went to work. So my husband headed to college. He went to UVU and kind of was following in my father's footsteps, which was really interesting in construction management. So he went to a couple years of college and kind of felt like, hey, I'm already doing everything I'm going to college for. And he didn't finish. But he's still Working in that field and being very successful in that field. So that's. That's where we. That was our plan. And as far as temple marriage. Yeah, I started to push for that, you know, pretty quickly into our marriage. We were married for two years, I think.

Social Pressure and Shame in Utah County Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Tell. Tell our listeners what it's like in the heart of Mormonism. I sometimes call. I guess Utah county isn't the equivalent of Saudi Arabia and Mormonism, because that's.

Linda Clyde [00:45:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] But Utah, next to Rexburg, Idaho, I think Utah county is known as being one of the most orthodox.

Linda Clyde [00:45:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] Centers of Mormonism. What's it like to grow up in. In one of the most conservative counties in all of orthodox Mormonism, but to get married not in the temple, to get married in a civil ceremony.

Linda Clyde [00:45:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] Tell us what that's like and what, what that communicates to all, Every. All your neighbors, everyone around you, everyone you grew up with. Can you talk us through that? Because I don't think that's something we've really covered. And I don't think people understand when we say, oh, I got married civilly in the heart of Mormonism. What that, what that, what that's really about.

Linda Clyde [00:45:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Can you fill all that in?

Linda Clyde [00:45:44] It's a scarlet letter.

John Dehlin [00:45:47] Take us all the way through that.

Linda Clyde [00:45:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:45:49] Even if you want to start with doctrine or whatever.

Linda Clyde [00:45:51] Sure. Well, everybody, Everybody knows that if you are not getting married in the temple and you're getting married that young, your spouse is not.

Savannah Clyde [00:46:02] Your.

Linda Clyde [00:46:02] Your fiance is not serving an LDS mission, you have sinned, obviously. Everybody knows you've had sex.

John Dehlin [00:46:09] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:46:09] You know, that's. And I don't know that we really tried to deny that. Nobody asked us. It's very passive aggressive. Nobody flat out asked us if we'd had sex. But the next question, you get to kind of get around and figure that out, you know, to figure out if somebody's getting married in the temple or not, which is, have you had sex or not? Are you a sinner or not? Is what that question is. I went to a high school football game right after we graduated. So this was a football game that was, you know, with the. The year younger than us. And one of my friends was there that had graduated with our class, my class, my husband's class. And he's like. He's like, so I heard you're getting married. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, so, temple, you get married in the temple? And I was like, it's like, no. And he just looked at me, like, right in the eyes. He says, I am so disappointed in you, you know, and I'll never forget that. That's. That was painful, you know, what was that?

John Dehlin [00:47:07] What did, what did you feel?

Linda Clyde [00:47:09] I just, it was just confirmation of the worries, you know, that you have all those worries like, what is everybody thinking about me? You know, what does everybody really think? And it was just confirmation that yes, everybody is thinking that. Everybody is thinking you're a sinner, that you're not worthy, that you're a second class citizen. And that was really hard. But I was very much in love and we had a wonderful relationship, you know, so people couldn't be happy for me. And that was, that was really hard. I had another, another young man at church because I clearly I have a memory of being at church after I was engaged. So I, even if we were sitting, I still trying to attend church and I don't really remember details about what most of that was like, but it, like, But I do remember an interaction with another young man that was also my age that had graduated our class and a couple of girls that were close to my age where it come up and were like looking at my ring, said, oh my gosh, I can't believe you're engaged. They were, you know, they were, they were being kind, probably trying to get information too, I don't know. But he walked up to me and he looked again, looked, looked straight at me and said, I bet if you took that ring off your finger, he'd go on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] What does that mean?

Linda Clyde [00:48:21] That means that it was my fault that my husband was choosing to not serve an LDS mission. That I was, he was putting all the blame on me.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] That you were a what?

Linda Clyde [00:48:34] That I was a sinner. That I was, I was a temptress. That it was, it was on me. That was really painful as well. That hurt. That was another confirmation that I was less than, you know, which I'd grown up with anyway, a little bit from everybody in Utah County. You know, when you're not the active family, everybody knows, you know, everybody. You're always being, trying to be. People are always trying to fellowship you. They're always trying to invite you to church, which with me they were pretty successful with, but not with all of my family. But so yeah, those are two of the, the, the most painful things I had just from peers that, you know, that's just a, just kind of a taste of what it felt like.

Guest [00:49:14] That's all really interesting because I grew up in Provo and those are all the things that I wanted to avoid. So I feel a lot of parallels to that of. I did get married in the temple at 19 because I didn't want people to say those things about me. Right.

Linda Clyde [00:49:25] It's very realistic.

Guest [00:49:26] It's a very realistic reason that you, you covenant, you go through this temple ceremony, you do all these things, a lot of this. Yes. So that you can have a relationship with God and make these covenants that you've always been waiting to make. And you, you assume that you're gonna, you know, fulfill this potential by getting married in the temple.

Linda Clyde [00:49:43] But a lot of it is because

Guest [00:49:44] you don't want people to talk crap about you. Let's be realistic. It's. That's really painful to hear and that's, that's something that I wanted to avoid. And if you, if you didn't care what people thought. Yeah, my life might have been different.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] And if I, if it's okay. I just want to, I just want to note a few things. I've been, I've been studying a lot about undue influence. We're about to release an episode on Mormon stories about the ways that unhealthy organizations wield undue influence. So Luna Lindsay Corbin's book called Recovering Agency talks about this a lot. It's basically techniques that unhealthy organizations, high demand religions and or cults use. And I want to just call out two things at least about your experience. One is how central shame is to the business model or the theological model of many high demand religions because it, it's the actual that so much wraps around. If you can get people feeling awful about themselves, get them feeling like they're unworthy, then they need the church and Jesus and God to feel worthy and they've got you chained to them if they can make you feel a ton of shame. There's a secondary benefit to that too, in that having the temple as something where there's restricted access to unless you're worthy, and then tying the payment of tithing and social reputation.

Guest [00:51:15] Yeah, social reputation cannot be understated like so important.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Tying, tying tithing and social reputation to temple worthiness ensures that people are living not, not just living the way the church wants, but giving money to the church because you can't be temple worthy without paying tithing. And so this is all so inextricably linked. It's why we always come back to law of chastity within Mormonism, because it's the way they get everybody in line. Shame is the way they get everybody in line to feel dependent on the church and then to give the church, its, its lives, their lives and their money. And I don't, I don't think it's intentionally nefarious. I think this is a system that got set up really early that everyone in the system is a victim of. There's one other thing I just want to note, and that's there's this awful irony because there were thousands of Mormon couples your age all over the world that were also sexually active prior to marriage, but they just lied. They just lied. They got all the benefits of a temple marriage, no scarlet letter. So they were, they were taught to lie. And, and they were rewarded for lying.

Linda Clyde [00:52:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] So in a weird way, the, the less valiant, the less faithful, the less honest, get rewarded, get elevated. And then sometimes, and then sometimes the most honest and in some ways the most righteous, the ones that said, no, I'm not worthy, I'm not going to lie, I'm going to just do the honorable thing and wear the scarlet letter instead of lie. It's the, it's sometimes the honest people, they get punished.

Linda Clyde [00:53:04] Yeah.

Guest [00:53:05] Are you saying religion is sometimes performative, John? Are we breaking new ground here?

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Yeah, I mean, I'm just saying we grow up thinking, who's is a Mormon? We grow up. Well, they're good and they're bad.

Linda Clyde [00:53:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:20] Oh, black and white did the right. And these people were bad. But it's, it's, it's often way more complicated than that.

Savannah Clyde [00:53:26] Right.

Linda Clyde [00:53:26] And I remember shortly after we were married, we had some, we had some super close friends who did it the right way. And I didn't know that in quotes, they had the right way. I didn't know that they had also been sexually active before they got married. I didn't know, like. And I, I was, I always had this less than complex around her and I would, I tended to talk about it. She was a safe space for me. So I would talk about, you know, that we had had sex before we were married. And one day, I'll never forget this too, because she must have gotten just annoyed with me because she's like, oh my gosh, we did too, you know, And I was, I was like, what? You did too? And she. And I, in a way, it was harder for her too, because they were going to almost. They were going to weekly, like weekly and monthly bishops interviews, confessing and confessing if they couldn't keep their hands off each other, you know, they were doing the same things that we were doing, but they were, they weren't willing to get married civilly first. They couldn't. The Pressures were too strong in their family to do it the way that we had done it. So they suffered for a full year. You know, it's just hard to even be around each other. Like, for them, it was hard to even be around each other, you know, because they were so afraid they were going to mess up and have to confess again. So that shame for them, having to relive it over and over and over again, month after month, you know, for a year, because they would mess up, you know, so that. That. That made me feel so much better to know that she had two. That I had somebody that I knew that had done what I had done, you know, but had just kind of chosen a different avenue, you know, because of the pressures in her family. Her family was very religious, and so she didn't feel like that was. She didn't want to get married civilly. First.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] Yeah. Three principles that we're outlining here are a culture of. Of purity. Purity Culture is one tool of undue influence. A second is confession.

Linda Clyde [00:55:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] You know, Scientology uses it brilliantly. Confession is a. Is a tool of undue influence. Purity, culture, confession, and then milieu control. Oh, no. Shame. Shame and guilt. That's a third. Shame and guilt. And then a fourth is milieu control, which is where this. The social culture is used to control people, even beyond what the church itself is explicitly and overtly controlling. And it sounds like all four of those really worked.

Linda Clyde [00:56:07] Oh, yeah, yeah. And the social. I think the social aspect was pretty. That was one of the hardest parts for me. I know that my grandma was probably disappointed in me, but she couldn't say anything either. She was married at 17, so I had a lot of high school sweetheart, you know, stories in my life, so that part wasn't a big deal. Getting married young for me, you know, and being married civilly first, that really wasn't. I didn't. Nobody could back that up and say, you do it the way that I did it, because everybody was doing it the way that, you know, not the right way. So. So that made it easier for me. But, yeah, a lot of. A lot of social pressures leading up to our actual marriage. Yeah, it was difficult.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] So what type of wife and mom does that make you? Once you've been through the. The shame parade, as we call it?

Linda Clyde [00:57:02] What kind of a wife and mother did it make me?

John Dehlin [00:57:08] From a religious standpoint?

Linda Clyde [00:57:09] What kind of a mother was I? Maybe we can go there. I.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] What did you want? What? What? You know, because. Because at least I. I get the sense that even though you didn't start out your marriage in the perfect way. You probably said, well, now I can create the family that. Yeah, that, that the good family. I can now create the good family.

Linda Clyde [00:57:30] I knew.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Is that right?

Linda Clyde [00:57:31] Yes. Yes. I knew it was going to take some time for people to accept me, people that knew me. But I could move out of my ward, my husband could move out of his ward, and we could start fresh where nobody really knew us and, and be the, the perfect Mormons. I don't know that I ever felt like I was going to be a perfect Mormon. But. But yeah, we could do things right and we could be accepted in our. In our culture, in our. In our society. And it's interesting, though, because we didn't end up being super active right off the bat. We didn't. And maybe that was the shame. Maybe that was. It took some time to feel like we were ready to go and be in those surroundings.

John Dehlin [00:58:16] Maybe worthy. Yeah, maybe you didn't feel worthy.

Linda Clyde [00:58:18] I. I know I didn't. It was hard. And I remember when we were starting to think about getting inactive or getting active because we were inactive, we did try to go to church one week and to introduce yourself at. In a Mormon, New Mormon congregation is always. It's a little bit draining, every meeting that you walk into. Oh, who are you? Tell us your story. Tell us all about you. And so I remember going to a Springville ward. We moved to Springville during that. The second year that we were married. I don't think that we went at all during our first. Well, maybe we might have a little bit, but we started to try to get a little bit active our second year of marriage. And so going to church the first time in this new ward in Springville, I had a girl turn around to me in Relief Society, and her was a question to me, wasn't, you know, what's your name? How are you? You know, it wasn't any of that. It was like, what temple did you get married in? That was the first question that came out of her mouth. And I drew a blank. I'm like, oh, crap. You know, I hadn't been sealed yet. I did not know how to answer this girl. And I was like, oh, we were married in Spanish Fork. We were married at, you know, the Chalon Reception center in Spanish Fork.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] And what was that like for you?

Linda Clyde [00:59:35] Well, the look on her face was like. The response is what killed me. Because that was not what she was expecting. And it was like, oh. And she had to turn around to talk to me and she turned Right back around and never spoke to me again. And so I, you remember those moments, I was like, okay, this is going to be harder than I thought to reintegrate myself into this culture. And I just wanted, I mean, I thought afterward, I thought, why didn't I say, oh, Spanish Fork Temple, you haven't heard of that one? You know, I've thought many times what I should have said, but she wasn't really interested in talking to me or she had gotten too uncomfortable in that moment to, you know, to know what to say to me. You know, what else could she say to me? I don't think that she, I think it was more. She was shocked by my answer and just uncomfortable and didn't know how to. Oh, you're a sinner. Oh, Scarlet Letter. I don't know what she thought, but she didn't talk to me again and wasn't comfortable speaking to me. And it was, it was tough. We, it was really difficult for us to integrate ourselves into the ward. So we did have home teachers. I remember them coming to visit us and feeling talked down to.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] What do you mean?

Linda Clyde [01:00:49] Where we weren't super active. They knew we weren't active because it was being difficult to integrate ourself into the culture, into the ward. When they would come to visit, they just walked in with. There was a holier than thou feeling that came with them. You know, they come into our house, sit on our couch and our. I felt, I felt kind of talked down to, like they had all the answers. They did everything right. We were, I just felt less than. I felt like I felt that second class citizen feeling a lot. And after they left, feeling kind of relieved that it was just my husband and I again. So my husband was my safe space. We were each other's safe space.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] So that's a, that's a positive.

Linda Clyde [01:01:33] That was a positive. We had each other and we weren't, we knew we weren't bad people.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] That's good.

Linda Clyde [01:01:40] So anyway, we were less close with my husband's family during that time, closer to mine. And that makes a lot of sense just with where we were in the way that we chose to do things. So. Yeah, so a lot of those experiences early in our marriage, hard to reintegrate. We finally went, we did get sealed eventually. That was in the year 2000. So we got married in 97 and we got sealed in St. George in the year 2000.

Getting Sealed in the Temple

John Dehlin [01:02:14] What was that process like?

Linda Clyde [01:02:16] Okay, so what's the mindset? Kind of interesting for me because, because

John Dehlin [01:02:21] you've already been married so Explain to, like, non Mormons why you would need to get married again.

Linda Clyde [01:02:26] Okay. Well, our. Our salvation was on the line.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] Why?

Linda Clyde [01:02:31] That's the. That's the Mormon teaching. You have to be married in the temple. You have to. Yeah, you have to. You have to be sealed in the temple. Or. Or you won't be able to go to the celestial kingdom and live with God. And for me, living with God, that was a big deal. Like, I felt pretty strong about God.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] So if you didn't get married in the temple, what would happen?

Linda Clyde [01:02:53] And I wouldn't be able to be with my husband forever.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] Right.

Linda Clyde [01:02:55] That was.

John Dehlin [01:02:56] Or your kids.

Linda Clyde [01:02:57] Or my kids. Which. We didn't have kids for four years, so. Which surprised a lot of people.

Guest [01:03:05] Yeah. Where was that pregnancy? Baby.

Linda Clyde [01:03:07] So marri. So funny. We ran into an old girlfriend of my husband's, like, after we had her. It was after we had her, and we're walking through a blockbuster, looking for a movie that shows how old I am. And she was. She came up and was talking to us a little bit, and she's like, don't you have one that's older than her? I was like, whoa, that shows exactly what you thought, you know, that we. That we'd had to get. Had to get married because I was pregnant. And it's like, no, she's our oldest, you know, and we let. We let it be at that. But yeah, so we had experience like that even way later on, you know, after we were already integrated. Come on. It haunts you a little bit. But.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] And just going back, I'm. We have so many non Mormon listeners now that I just have to make this really explicit that if we're talking about undue influence, one of the Mormon teachings is that if you don't get married in a Mormon temple to your spouse sealed in the Mormon temple, then you can't go to the highest degree of heaven, which is the celestial kingdom, where you can become a God someday, but also where you get to live with God and you get to live with your spouse forever, and you get to live with your kids forever. And your parents and all the good Mormons, they're all in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, and temple marriage is a requirement for all that. If you don't get sealed in the temple, which is not just unrighteous Mormons, but all the rest of the world, all of you. Right. And all of the people who aren't faithful Mormons, don't get to live with Heavenly Father in heaven for eternity. Don't get to live with their spouses in heaven for eternity, don't get to live with their children for eternity. It's like you're alone in some other place in heaven, which kind of is hell for eternity.

Linda Clyde [01:05:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:03] And again, paying money to the church and obeying the church is all wrapped in with temple worthiness or temple attendance. And so there's a lot at stake.

Linda Clyde [01:05:16] Hold on.

John Dehlin [01:05:17] Is that why you. Partly why you wanted to get rid of the church?

Linda Clyde [01:05:20] Of course. That's the whole reason I wanted to go. You know, just the forever family. I remember as a kid singing, you know that I loved that song. You know, I have, you know, I have a family here on earth. They are so good to me, you

John Dehlin [01:05:34] know, I want to share my.

Linda Clyde [01:05:36] I want to share my life with them for all eternity.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] Families can be together forever.

Linda Clyde [01:05:40] Families can be together forever. So, yeah, that. I loved that song. I worried as a kid when I heard that song. And it was always my dad. Yeah. So always worried about losing dad, not being with dad. And then, you know, so of course I was going to go through with the temple, you know, I was going to make sure that those. Those family relationships were.

Guest [01:06:04] Sure,

Linda Clyde [01:06:07] yeah, there's. I was definitely going to do that. I had to do that, you know, with that belief system. I had to do that to have my family with me. So. So, yeah. So 2000, year 2000, the situation on this is interesting and I wanted to talk really quickly about a conversation that I had with my dad. So by the year 2000, my husband and I had moved down to St. George. We're living in hurricane for just a little while. He was working for W.W. clyde with his family, with his dad on a project down there. So he and I were invited just to live down there for about nine months while this project was going on. While we were down there, I think that I felt safe enough being away from my dad to pursue the temple without too much conflict. I think this was also kind of a subconscious thing. So we were away from Utah County. I mean, not that St. George is a lot different, but it was our own space where we could pursue the temple and I wouldn't have to worry about the conflict with my dad. So. But one. One weekend I was up. We were up visiting and my dad had me alone in the kitchen and he. He knew that we were doing the temple prep classes down there. And he. He said, I just want you to know you don't have to do this. You know, you don't have to do this. And I. Again, the cognitive dissonance was so hard because I just. I said, okay, dad, you know, Okay. I just. I felt. It felt confrontational, but it wasn't. He was coming from a place of love, but I couldn't see it.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] Why do you think he would have. How. How could that have been a loving message from his perspective? I'm just curious what you think.

Linda Clyde [01:07:43] Well, looking back on it now, I know that. That he was seeing. He just. He had just had such a broader perspective than I did, which was, you know, just that, you know, the temple isn't necessary, you know, for happiness, to have a, you know, a good life and a good marriage, and it's not necessary. He was seeing all of those things, but I couldn't see it. I was so. So wrapped up in it that I. That was not even on my radar. And so when he brought it up, it felt like conflict immediately. I was back in that space of being a child, you know, not knowing how to handle my dad and the feelings of, like, but I have to do this. This is right. So I just kind of was very passive in that moment and just said, hey, dad, you know, Okay, I. You know, I understand. But the second that that conversation was over, I was in my car, beeline in it back to St. George. I was. And my husband was still in St. George. So I was visiting alone that weekend, and I cried the whole way back to St. George because. Because the cognitive dissonance was so difficult, you know, and. And just wanting to have that relationship with my dad, wanting my dad to feel happy for me, you know, that I was getting to the point where I was. I was worthy, you know, that I was taking the steps to be, you know, to do what I was supposed to do. I just couldn't connect with him. So it was a combination of just not being able to connect with him. The pain of that, and then just all of the religious stuff on top of it was really overwhelming. So I got home, you know, to St. George, and talked to my husband about it, and I. But I'll never forget that, too, because it was such an emotionally charged thing. My mom got home and she talked to my dad. She's like, what did you do? Because I was gone. I was supposed to stay for another night or two, and I was like, I couldn't handle it. Couldn't do it.

Savannah Clyde [01:09:36] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:09:36] So I had asked my dad if he would be there, if he would come to the temple, which. Gosh, I feel so bad. I feel so bad about that now, because the hoops that my dad had to jump through. To be in that temple with my husband And I in St. George when we. The day of, when we finally decided to do it. I know that he was meeting with the bishop constantly, you know, and I'm sure he was discussing all of his issues with the church. But giving. I'm sure he gave. I'm sure he gave that bishop hell, honestly, because I'm sure that he was playing the card. I need to be there for my daughter. My daughter has asked me to be there. And you're the only thing between me and my daughter right now.

Non-Members Excluded From the Temple Wedding

John Dehlin [01:10:22] You know, and I think I. I think we need to back up just a tiny bit for non Mormons. And just I. I can hear a non Mormon saying, wait, why is dad not attending the wedding of his own daughter? Yeah, explain. Explain that.

Linda Clyde [01:10:37] Okay, so dad was not being an active. He was not doing A, B, C and D. Wasn't towing the line. He wasn't being obedient.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] Meaning what?

Linda Clyde [01:10:45] Going to church, attending the temple, paying his tithing, doing all. All of the things that are required to attend the LDS temple. He had to do all of those things to attend the temple. For somebody who doesn't believe it to jump through those hoops is. Is asking way, way too much, you know, and so.

John Dehlin [01:11:04] So he was set.

Linda Clyde [01:11:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] Just to be clear, your parent was set to not be. Not being able to attend your wedding. Yes, your temple.

Linda Clyde [01:11:13] Our temple wedding. He did get to walk me down through the aisle. Down the aisle when we did our civil ceremony, so. And he was very grateful for that experience. But in. In the temple, my dad wouldn't play any role in the experience or even be able to. Or even be able.

John Dehlin [01:11:27] And again, we have to go back to the scarlet letter.

Linda Clyde [01:11:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:11:30] Explain what it might be like for a parent.

Linda Clyde [01:11:34] Okay. For my dad. Excruciating.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] To not be able to.

Linda Clyde [01:11:36] Excruciating.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] Why?

Linda Clyde [01:11:38] To not be at a wedding of his child. To sit outside and be shamed. You know, to not be able to be in there and observe that special

John Dehlin [01:11:47] ceremony with neighbors and strangers.

Linda Clyde [01:11:50] Oh, and everybody. Yeah, everybody that knows him, you know, it's a scarlet letter for him to not be there. You know, So I know that that was a very difficult thing. I know that he went through multiple bishops interviews. Um, and I'm sure he. Like I said, I'm sure he gave the bishop hell because my dad is pretty blunt and pretty straightforward. Um, somehow I don't know how. And I've never talked to my dad about the details of how he was able to do it, but he did it. He got a temple recommend. He probably had to pay tithing. I don't know what he had.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] Sometimes people have to pay back tithing for all the years that they didn't pay tithing. Sometimes they have to say a lot of personal things to a stranger. Sometimes they have to either manufacture a genuine belief or deceive about their beliefs.

Linda Clyde [01:12:41] Yeah. And I'm sure my dad wouldn't lie.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] But it's all shame Parade stuff. It's all shame and get in line.

Linda Clyde [01:12:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:48] And it's. It ends up being behavioral control and pay us money.

Guest [01:12:53] And underwear control too. Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:55] What's that?

Linda Clyde [01:12:55] And underwear control.

Guest [01:12:57] Right.

Linda Clyde [01:12:57] Like, wouldn't he have had to, like,

Guest [01:12:59] go to the distribution center literally, and start.

Linda Clyde [01:13:01] He probably did.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] If you don't wear Mormon garments, your Mormon underwear, you also can't attend the temple.

Linda Clyde [01:13:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:07] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:13:08] So it's not just a, B, C, D. It's E, F, G, H, I, J, K. It's a powerful mechanism of all the things. All the things. And I'm sure that if I really had to hear the details of the hoops my dad had to jump through to be at my wedding on that day, my temple ceremony on that day. It would break my heart to really hear what he had to do. But he did it for me. He was there. And the saddest thing ever is is that day being in the temple with my dad. He's such a shit. Sorry that. That he couldn't. He couldn't be reverent. He was not. He. He didn't love being there. He was more interested in. In checking out the historicity of the temple. Like he was. He was kind of trying to sneak off into hidden rooms. He was snooping. You know, he came in. He was. He made it through into the celestial room and all of that. He was, you know. Oh, he was the endowment day. So we did endowment one day and then we did the temple ceremony the next day. But on the day of the endowment, when he was there for that as well. And he kept trying to kind of sneak off and check out the temple.

Guest [01:14:18] Do we have the same dad? That is so weird.

Linda Clyde [01:14:21] Like, that's literally word for word exactly

Guest [01:14:24] what my dad did too.

Linda Clyde [01:14:25] Yeah, it was very interesting. Kind of a joke about in the building because it's one of the oldest Mormon temples is St. George. So he was pretty interested in the building. And I remember being kind of upset with him that he was not focused. Come on, dad, focus.

John Dehlin [01:14:39] I wonder if he was a tiny bit resentful of what he had to do to get there?

Linda Clyde [01:14:42] Absolutely. I'm sure there's no doubt that he was resentful. And my grandma, who was also there, the really religious grandma, she was there too. So the other memory of that temple ceremony day was her once we're all in the celestial room, her throwing her arms open, but now we can all be together forever. Cause my dad was there too, and that was huge for her. I mean, this is his mom. This is actually my maternal grandmother.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] Mom's mom.

Linda Clyde [01:15:08] Yes. But there was a lot of conflict between my dad and my grandma because they're polar opposites on the religious spectrum. So for my dad to be there, my grandma was having this emotional response in the temple, in the celestial room,

John Dehlin [01:15:23] and she spiked the spiritual football.

Linda Clyde [01:15:27] And I remember being a little bit embarrassed by how she was. Was how she was acting. I was like, oh, grandma, I don't think he's quite there, you know, in that space, but he's here. Let's just, you know. Anyway.

The Endowment Ceremony Experience

John Dehlin [01:15:39] So what was the actual endowment ceremony like for you? Was it awesome or was it problematic in any way? A lot of our interviewees had a difficult time going through the Mormon Temple themselves prior to the wedding. Because for. For non Mormon listeners, there's an endowment ceremony that you go through before you get married in the temple where you. Where you are given the garments to wear, this underwear that you're supposed to wear as a Mormon. But also you make all these covenants to the church to give your time, your life, your money, everything to the church for the. For eternity.

Guest [01:16:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] And then. And then there's a movie you watch, and it, you know, was. Was that at all? And it's all borrowed from the Masonic Lodge. So if you go back in time, Joseph Smith was a mason for a short period of time, and he basically just ripped off a bunch of rituals from the Masonic ceremony, plunged it with Genesis, and created a Mormon Temple ceremony. So what was it like for you, that endowment?

Linda Clyde [01:16:39] Okay. Yeah, it was great. I didn't have a lot of problems with it.

Savannah Clyde [01:16:42] There were.

Linda Clyde [01:16:43] I mean, thinking back, there were a couple of things that. That were notable in my head. I knew that I was driving the religion bus in our relationship. And so when they said that I would answer to my husband as my husband answers to God, I was like, dude, how's your relationship with God? Because me and God are pretty tight. Are you sure? You know, like. I mean, not that my husband didn't.

John Dehlin [01:17:07] The woman covenanted to hearken to her husband while her husband covenanted to hearken to God.

Linda Clyde [01:17:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:14] So this is something that they just recently changed because of Internet activism, frankly.

Linda Clyde [01:17:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:19] But for, for almost two centuries, the man covenanted with God and the woman covenanted with her husband.

Linda Clyde [01:17:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] With a veil over her face. Is that all right?

Linda Clyde [01:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] Notice that.

Linda Clyde [01:17:32] I did notice that. I did notice that because I thought that that was strange. I knew that I would, I just by nature had. I was more spiritually inclined and that I prayed a lot more and that I was. I mean, because we'd been married for two years, at that point, I knew I prayed more than my husband, at least, like, visually, I mean, you could see me kneel down and pray. I knew, I mean, I, not that he didn't pray, man. I feel like my husband had a good handle on, you know, his spirituality too. But I, I, I, I'm gonna be a little bit arrogant and say that I felt like I was, I was more spiritual than my husband was. So I thought that that felt strange, that felt odd, that I was going to answer to my husband as he answers to God, because I'm like, I have my own relationship with God. That just felt weird. So that was the only part that I. And the handshakes were all strange. Like, that was all really weird. And I thought for me, I was very much like, I wonder what it means. I just need to keep coming. So I understand what all these handshakes mean because they have to have this meaning. Where can I learn more about the meaning? It was kind of unexpected, but I just, I was really into symbolism and spirituality. So I was like, okay, there's gotta be something. Yeah, that's gotta mean something. So for me, I was like, okay, I guess I just have to come more. But it, I wasn't super weirded out by it. Oh, other other notable thing was, you know, raising my hands to the air. The true order of prayer, the whole. That was a little bit of a red flag too, because that, it felt cult. Like, I did have a moment where, like, that feels really weird. That feels weird. So, so yeah, those, those two things were, were strange. And I do remember my first experience being like, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Guest [01:19:19] But you, it sounds like you are kind of already assuming that the, the church is true, obviously. So there's something wrong and something that you're gonna have to learn. You're just gonna have to keep going over and over again until you.

Linda Clyde [01:19:30] It had to be me.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] That's called blame reversal. When, whenever there's a problem, it's you that's the problem.

Linda Clyde [01:19:37] And I was used to that. Like, just my nature and my upbringing. I was used to that. That. That was a very easy narrative in my brain to follow. It's just that it had to be me. So I embraced that. I was like, oh, yeah, I guess I just need to go more. I already felt I. I was less than. I had things to learn, so.

John Dehlin [01:19:54] Makes you more committed.

Linda Clyde [01:19:55] Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, it was. That was my temple experience. And my husband, he didn't. We didn't ever talk a lot about it. He didn't like going. He definitely didn't like going. There were a few times that I went by myself, but even still, I probably been to the temple maybe 10, 20 times in my whole life. I haven't been a lot, but more than he has. He didn't really like. He didn't like being there. And he. The first time he saw the temple close, he saw somebody walking by in the temple closed before we'd ever had gone through the endowment. And he thought, you know, it looked like a chef's house. Like, I wonder. They have a kitchen somewhere. That was his. He was like. Anyway, that was his impression of the clothing at first. There's a chef that's walking around here. Oh, wait, I'm gonna be wearing that in about 10 minutes.

Guest [01:20:43] Yeah, they definitely do not prep you for that.

Linda Clyde [01:20:45] Wait, these are the clothes I'm gonna be wearing, too. Anyway.

Guest [01:20:48] Did he get endowed the same day as you, you went through together?

Linda Clyde [01:20:50] Yes.

Guest [01:20:51] Okay. That's kind of rare. Most couples never get that chance.

Linda Clyde [01:20:54] Yeah, we experienced that together, so.

John Dehlin [01:20:56] Because normally the boy goes through.

Linda Clyde [01:20:58] If he's been on an LDS mission, he would have gone through before me, but it was new for both of us, so. So, yeah, we did it all together, so that was cool.

Guest [01:21:06] Hope you had an interesting car ride home.

John Dehlin [01:21:09] Or not. Or you just don't talk about. We didn't talk about the temple. Right?

Linda Clyde [01:21:14] We didn't talk about it. We went back. We did go back in St. George, I think, one time, and the one. We were asked to be the witness couple, which is for those. Yeah, I guess.

Savannah Clyde [01:21:26] Yeah.

Guest [01:21:26] I don't know.

Linda Clyde [01:21:26] We just looked like we needed to be the witness couple to whoever was asking that day. But that. For those who don't know, for those who aren't Mormon, there is an altar at the front of the room of the endowment room, and a couple is asked to kind of show everybody what's supposed to be done. So play the role of Adam and Eve and be at the altar. And we've been asked More than once. There was another time we were asked to do it. I think it was my cousin's wedding in Manti. So, yeah, we've done it more than once. So did you like it?

Guest [01:21:59] Did you have a panic attack?

Linda Clyde [01:22:00] No, I was good. I felt like I was arriving. The scarlet letter was fading. I was becoming more.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] Right.

Linda Clyde [01:22:08] More righteous.

Savannah Clyde [01:22:09] I don't know.

Linda Clyde [01:22:10] So, yeah, it was a good feeling. It was validating for me. I was like, they're feeling my spirituality now. It's been there all along. I'm finally being recognized.

Guest [01:22:19] So your countenance glows when you get

Linda Clyde [01:22:21] to come to the front to be the.

Savannah Clyde [01:22:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:25] I mean, they. You. You were taught that you were, you know, you were shamed into feeling unworthy for a couple decades.

Linda Clyde [01:22:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:33] And then if you get it, if you start obeying and following, wow. Magically you start feeling worthy and you start feeling better.

Savannah Clyde [01:22:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] Once you start obeying what they want you to do.

Linda Clyde [01:22:43] Right. Which. Which I definitely say I would. I experienced. I definitely.

John Dehlin [01:22:48] It feels good.

Linda Clyde [01:22:48] It did feel. It felt much better. It's way better not to be shunned in your society and your culture. Yeah, it felt a lot better. So, yeah, that was good. It was good. So my temple experience, I can't ever say that it was horrible. You know, some of it was validating, you know, being the witness couple. But my husband really never liked to go. And for me, I always. He did express that a little bit, you know, want to be like, you know, you want to go with me trying to drive that religion bus? And he's like, you know, I don't really want to go. And so I always tried to be respectful of that, but then again, I would, you know, I start putting the pressure on him, you know, to perform A, B, C and D. You got to start doing these things, dude, because it's your job now, you know? So I'm doing what I've been taught to do and trying to pressure my husband to start, you know, being what he's supposed to be so we can fit into the culture, we can fit into the society, we can. Everybody can be proud of us. You know, I wanted that. I wanted everybody to be proud of us. So I was the driving force, and I. I did. I did start putting pressure on him.

John Dehlin [01:23:56] Why are you getting. Why are you feeling emotions?

Linda Clyde [01:24:01] Just because I wish I wouldn't have.

Savannah Clyde [01:24:04] You know,

Linda Clyde [01:24:07] I think it's a respect thing. You know, he was feeling those things. He wasn't comfortable there. He wasn't comfortable at the temple, and he. He Wasn't necessarily super great at voicing that, you know, but I had had this. You know, my agenda was now the same agenda as the church. The fact that I adopted that and I kind of pushed that and maybe potentially made him feel bad makes me feel bad now, you know, in hindsight. Yeah. Just not be. Not. Not as respectful as I should have been to his feelings.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] And it starts to repeat the role.

Linda Clyde [01:24:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:45] Your parents. Marriage. Right. I don't want to fill that in. I don't want to project that.

Linda Clyde [01:24:51] Yeah. Yeah. In a way. But then my husband was, like, never antagonistic. He didn't. He wasn't. He's not super interested in. In the reading and the intellectual side of things, like my dad is. So my dad was pushy. Like, when he was gonna say something, he was going to say something. It was going to be in your face. So my husband was not like that. So I always felt peaceful being married to my husband. I never felt like he was pushing anything on me. If anything, it was the reverse because I became my dad in our relationship. Yeah. That I would. I kind of just in my demeanor, in my nature, that I was. I became pushy with my husband. Not. Not overly so, not as much as many of the stories that I've heard, but enough that I. I do feel a little bit bad about it now, so.

John Dehlin [01:25:40] So how did that change your family going through the temple?

Linda Clyde [01:25:45] How did it change our church experience?

John Dehlin [01:25:47] Like, take us forward, I guess.

Linda Clyde [01:25:49] Okay, so the wedding.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] Is there anything you want to say about the actual wedding?

Linda Clyde [01:25:53] No.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] Okay.

Linda Clyde [01:25:54] Not really. Not.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] Both parents were there.

Savannah Clyde [01:25:56] Yep.

Linda Clyde [01:25:57] My mom and dad were there. His parents were there. Both my husband's religious grandma and my religious grandma were there. A couple aunts and uncles. It was pretty small, actually, on religious grandpas, one, I think. Let's see who was excluded. Who was excluded? It was very quiet. If anybody would have been excluded, it would probably, you know, would have been my dad. But we kept the invitation list pretty small just because it was. It was two years after we had been married, so everybody that we really cared about had seen us married. So we just invited those we felt like it would really matter to, you know, and people that really mattered to us a lot. You know, just having my. Both my parents there mattered to me.

Savannah Clyde [01:26:44] So.

Linda Clyde [01:26:46] So I asked them. But, yeah, I don't feel like anybody. I hope that I'm not missing anybody. I hope nobody felt excluded on that day. So thankfully, we didn't have a whole lot of that. But I don't know. I do have guilt Looking back and pushing, Putting the pressure on my dad to be there. So. Yeah. But moving on.

Savannah Clyde [01:27:07] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:27:07] Like I said, we're married for four years before we had kids, and we were in and out of being active throughout. Throughout that time. And we lived in multiple different places in Utah county and down in St. George, just for the nine months. But four years in, we had Savannah.

Savannah Clyde [01:27:23] That's where I come in.

John Dehlin [01:27:24] Welcome, Savannah.

Linda Clyde [01:27:28] And so she was born in the covenant, which, you know, which means when you've been married in the temple that your children are born in, in the covenant, they're automatically sealed to you, which

John Dehlin [01:27:39] means what

Linda Clyde [01:27:42] we get to be. We would get to be a family forever if. If we keep the covenant that we made in the temple.

Savannah Clyde [01:27:48] So I was good up until I was eight, you know.

Linda Clyde [01:27:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:52] So how did your family change?

Linda Clyde [01:27:57] Like, our. Like, my husband and I and our children or like, just everything.

John Dehlin [01:28:01] Did going to the temple change your family?

Linda Clyde [01:28:05] Well, I know that on his side of the family, that they were very. They were.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] I mean, your relationship in with your kids, you know, your trajectory.

Linda Clyde [01:28:13] Yeah, yeah, it did. We were just on the path to Mormondom. I mean, we were on the right path, you know, after going through the

John Dehlin [01:28:23] temple, you know, which means you started doing what behaviors.

Linda Clyde [01:28:27] We got better at going to church because, like I said, we had a hard time integrating. But once Savannah was born, we were all in.

Savannah Clyde [01:28:36] Yeah. I don't remember, like, a time in my childhood up until my late teens means that we weren't going to church. We went, like, even every move that we had, we started in new wards. I remember different primaries. Like, I have, like, really, really early memories in a church building, so.

Linda Clyde [01:28:54] So she actually got a more Mormon upbringing than I did. I ensured that.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] What does all in mean?

Savannah Clyde [01:29:01] We went to church every Sunday. We went to youth activities. We went to activity days when we were young.

John Dehlin [01:29:08] What about family prayer, Scripture study?

Savannah Clyde [01:29:10] We didn't do so much scripture study. We did a lot of family prayer,

Linda Clyde [01:29:13] and we would pray over my husband's family.

Savannah Clyde [01:29:16] So, yeah, at the end of night, before we all went to our own rooms to go to bed, we would say prayers. We would try to do family home evening. It was never a super consistent thing. It was usually when, like, we'd have a lesson in church that was just like, oh, you guys should be doing family home evening. We'd do it for two weeks, and then we kind of faltered off. So that was never really consistent tomorrow, especially because we all had pretty busy schedules.

John Dehlin [01:29:37] But definitely weekly church attendance. Coffee?

Savannah Clyde [01:29:41] Absolutely not.

Linda Clyde [01:29:42] No. Well, okay. Tea. Yes. I did do some tea, just because I had only herbal, though. Yeah, I had some stomach issues, and peppermint tea seemed. Seemed to help. And so I. But I remember I asked my bishop about it to make sure that it was okay, and he's like, this was when we lived in Colorado. He's like, honestly, he's like, I really don't know that much about tea. He's like, do you feel good about it? And I was like, yes, I feel fine about it. It's helping my stomach. And so he's like, it's fine. Then. Do you feel worthy to go to the temple? I said, yes. So that was. Yeah. So occasionally, a little bit of tea.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] No Alcohol?

Linda Clyde [01:30:16] No.

John Dehlin [01:30:16] Tobacco?

Linda Clyde [01:30:17] No.

John Dehlin [01:30:17] Drugs?

Linda Clyde [01:30:18] No.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] Okay.

Linda Clyde [01:30:19] Bishop's interview.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] I just want to know what. What. Oh, yeah, I know what the way is. You know what I mean?

Linda Clyde [01:30:25] That is the way.

John Dehlin [01:30:26] Yes, that's the way. So they. Mandalore. This is the way.

Guest [01:30:31] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [01:30:32] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:30:33] So, yeah, we raising the kids in the church. They were all. Chris blessed, all of them. He baptized all of them, and I was, you know, making sure that we were. We were in.

Savannah Clyde [01:30:47] Yes.

Linda Clyde [01:30:48] Well, okay. So early on, when they were really little, not so much. So there was a. Up until the point when we moved to Colorado, which is kind of a transition point in our marriage and in our family. We weren't great at paying tithing before that, but after we moved, let me back up just a teeny bit. My husband worked with my dad in construction and with my older sister in construction, who also graduated from BYU in construction management. My sister and my dad and then my husband were all. They were all partners in my dad's company that he'd run for a really long time. So we were very enmeshed as a family, and I was not super comfortable with that. Like, I had a really hard time with that just because I have a lot of daddy issues and with this particular older sister, too. I just had a lot of issues, and so I needed a break. I needed a break from that. So I was pushing for him, my husband, to stop working with my dad and my sister, and we needed to make a break and go. Go somewhere else. And so secretly, we were kind of talking about it. I also kind of got. Had gotten to the point where I wanted to go to college. So I applied at CSU in Colorado.

Savannah Clyde [01:31:57] Colorado State University.

Linda Clyde [01:31:58] Yeah. And I got accepted. So that was one of the reasons. It's like, okay, let's go. You know, there's a reason. There's the reason we needed to let's go. But I had three little kids. I don't know what I was thinking to. I mean, people do it all the time.

John Dehlin [01:32:13] But anyway, I was a Mormon mommy wanting to get educated.

Linda Clyde [01:32:19] It was, it was.

John Dehlin [01:32:20] That's off script. That's off plan. Yeah, I mean, once you've had the kids, right?

Linda Clyde [01:32:24] Yeah, it was okay. I, I dove into the narrative, the Mormon mommy narrative. Had my three little kids. By the time we were going to move to Colorado, I had three little kids. How old were you when we moved to Colorado?

Savannah Clyde [01:32:39] I was eight.

Linda Clyde [01:32:39] I'd just been. She'd just been baptized and by this time the kids were starting to get a little bit older where it's like I was realizing I don't know who the heck I am. I have no identity. You know, I had never like getting married at 18. I had no idea who I was. And I kind of started to dream a little bit. I'm like, maybe I'm not as dumb as I thought I was. Maybe I could do more than being a hairstylist. No, no, not just sing on hairstylists. It's a, it's a great occupation and it's served me well. But I wanted more. I wanted, I wanted a little bit more. And so I think just getting accepted to college was actually a huge step for me. A huge step with my self esteem.

John Dehlin [01:33:22] A little bit off script though. I'm not, I mean, I don't want to.

Linda Clyde [01:33:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:26] Misjudged Mormon. Yeah, the Mormon way. But.

Linda Clyde [01:33:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:31] So for me, you know, with that at the time, that, that kind of wasn't what was always done,

Linda Clyde [01:33:37] that going to, the, going to college with, with three little kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew that that was, that was probably a little too ambitious, but I, but there was a part of me that really wanted it. So I think just even applying and doing, just filling all out all the paperwork and writing an essay and all of those kinds of things that you have to do to get in college was like really cool for me and it was validating for me to get accepted into college. And that's not a big deal for a lot of people, but for me, that was a big deal. So we're like, okay, let's go, let's let's up and move. My dad was really upset with that decision, but it was healthy, it was really healthy for us to break away from my family and from Utah county and move in outside the bubble. It was really great. Our family, like our, our church family in Colorado became our family while we were There, those were our closest friends. It's almost like no matter where you move with the LDS Church, you have kind of a built in family system. If you're going to be active, if you're going to stay on the path, you have a built in family. So immediately that's one of the first things we did when we moved to Colorado was we, we sought out the closest ward, the bishop and, and got ourselves integrated there and made some really wonderful friends while we were there. I did not end up attending college because I realized that that was a little too ambitious and we were really poor. This was when 2008 economy tanked. This was when the economy tanked and it was a good time to break away from my dad's company and do something different. We sold off everything we had, our house, our van, we had one vehicle and we took the kids and we moved to Colorado. My dad thought we were nuts. He's like, what are you doing? You know. And my husband went and worked at Home Depot for a little while and which was a huge step down. He'd been building parade homes with my dad here. It was so financially it was really tough. That was a really tough time. I ended up going to, I did go to work while we were there as a beautician because I could make good money in Colorado as a beautician. So as soon as all the kids were in school, I went to work at a high end salon there. And that was great. That was a good experience and it increased my self esteem, my self worth as a woman to be providing in a way to be able to make the good money. There were days that I was doing, making three or four hundred dollars a day just doing hair. So it was good. It was good.

Mormon Expectations for Women and Education

John Dehlin [01:36:11] I just want to just note some of these subtleties along the way that the Mormon church is taught forever that a woman's place is in the home, that women don't need an education beyond, you know, whatever they get before they get married, but that their primary role is to be a mommy and a housewife, that the woman shouldn't work outside the home, which you were kind of technically sinning, but also just trying to survive. Yeah, right.

Linda Clyde [01:36:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:38] But then also in Mormonism there's this general, you know, there's a love hate relationship with education because if you're going to become an accountant or a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer and you're a man, then yes, get educated because then you'll become a successful, wealthy sort of provider to your family and the church.

Linda Clyde [01:36:59] Right.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] But then any kind of liberal arts education or any education for women is at best unnecessary.

Linda Clyde [01:37:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] But at worst dangerous because. Because faith is what matters.

Linda Clyde [01:37:14] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:14] You know, the learned become prideful.

Linda Clyde [01:37:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] The learned find out, start asking questions.

Linda Clyde [01:37:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] And, and, and so there's this love hate relationship with education in the church, but especially with, with women, because it can lead to a pot, it can lead to faithlessness. It could lead to what the church would call pride.

Linda Clyde [01:37:35] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:36] And apostasy.

Linda Clyde [01:37:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] What maybe the rest of the world would call enlightenment.

Linda Clyde [01:37:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:37:42] But you were empowering yourself.

Linda Clyde [01:37:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:44] Which is dangerous to faith.

Linda Clyde [01:37:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:46] I don't know if you felt that at the time.

Linda Clyde [01:37:49] To me, it just felt good. I did okay. I had moments. Okay. So when my youngest was finally old enough to go to preschool in kindergarten, I was like, oh, you're going to. You know, you're going. Because mama needs this kind of a thing. I was having, I was having a hard time. I don't know that really looking back on it now that I was as wired for Mormon mommyhood as I thought that I was. Just because there was this part of me that was always trying to speak up, like I wanted to learn. I wanted to learn. I wanted to experience more than just being a stay at home mom. And I don't discover disparage that I think it's a wonderful, beautiful thing. Some people are better at it than others. I was okay. I was okay. My mom was incredible. Was an incredible stay at home mom. Still is like us kids. We are her everything and she's awesome. And I remember feeling guilt anytime I had a thought that that might not be enough for me, you know, But I, but those things were deep, absolutely creeping up once I got out of the stage with my kids, when they were all consuming, you know, when they could all go to school, like, oh, breathing a sigh of relief and being like, okay, I can learn something. I can figure out who the heck I am. I can. I can breathe. You know, it was, it was really tough. So baby steps toward that for sure. That just felt amazing. It was empowering for me to earn some money to contribute. Contributing was huge for me. I loved it, Absolutely loved it. Still love it.

Savannah Clyde [01:39:32] Still.

Linda Clyde [01:39:32] You know, just to be able to contribute is huge to our home in that way, financially is an awesome thing. I encourage any woman out there to do it, figure out ways to do it, because it's so healthy. I became a healthier individual once I was working and healthier for my family too. And even though it was just, it was just going you know, to work in a salon. My youngest, I'm like, okay, yeah, you're doing all day kindergarten. Because they. They offered that in Colorado. As soon as she was doing that, I was working quite a bit in the salon. And it was. It was good. Not. Not my. Not my perfect environment, but. But to earn that money was great.

Guest [01:40:13] It was great.

John Dehlin [01:40:13] Do you feel any guilt for not.

Savannah Clyde [01:40:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] Following the church's path?

Savannah Clyde [01:40:17] What.

John Dehlin [01:40:18] Why? What would have made you feel guilt?

Linda Clyde [01:40:21] Just that narrative that my place was in the home, you know, that I might be. No success can compensate for failure in the home that was ingrained. I did have that. I did worry about that. I did worry about, you know, failing my kids in some way, not being what they needed me to be. I had never heard a narrative that just being an example of a working mom for your children would be a good thing. You know, I'd never heard of that before. And the first time I saw examples of that, it was very emotional for me because to see that your kids can watch you, just that it's your example, you know, that teach them. Yes. You can also be there for your kids and be a working parent. You can provide the things that they need and still have a good, loving relationship with your kids and not be the reason that, you know that they're gonna fail, you know? So super, super awesome time for me in Colorado. A lot of growth for me and for my husband there. He got his contractor's license there, started his own company while we lived there. So he grew wings as well, in a way there. So we gained some independence. We grew super tight in it as our own little family unit. It was a beautiful three years. Very healthy in many ways for us, though, we were, like, so in the church while we were there.

Savannah's Childhood and Move to Colorado

John Dehlin [01:41:49] What's this like for you in Colorado? Savannah.

Savannah Clyde [01:41:52] I loved Colorado in a lot of ways. I still really consider it a home away from home because I didn't feel that conformity that I was expected to feel. So when I was there, I went. I was third grade through fifth grade there, and I.

John Dehlin [01:42:06] Do you want to talk about what it was like before Colorado for you?

Savannah Clyde [01:42:08] Yeah, that'd probably be good.

Linda Clyde [01:42:10] Sorry.

Guest [01:42:10] No, you're ahead of me.

John Dehlin [01:42:11] Back up and just talk about your.

Savannah Clyde [01:42:12] So, yeah, I was born in Provo. I was, you know, came out of hurt. Yeah, we were very consistent in the church. I. I was a very big personality. I talked very early. I was reading books very early. I drove her nuts just because I was a sponge. I wanted all this information. No, I kind of loved it.

Linda Clyde [01:42:37] I kind of loved it. I loved reading.

Savannah Clyde [01:42:38] I mean, you read to me a lot. Like, she read to me so much when I was younger. But I didn't really love church. I maybe was four, and I was in the kitchen telling my mom, I

Linda Clyde [01:42:47] don't want to go to church.

Savannah Clyde [01:42:48] I don't want to put on a dress. I don't want to wear tights. Like, I want to just stay in my shorts and play and do what I want on Sunday. But, you know, we definitely had some battles, but we went. And I guess I was kind of indifferent. I mean, I was like, I was baptized at 8, and then we moved to Colorado. So, like, I mean, early on, it was just a part of life. I didn't really give it a ton of thought. I mean, there were some things. Like, I did grow up hearing the conversations with my mom and my grandpa. And so there were. There were little things, the types of, like, stuff about Joseph Smith, some things that were questionable. I think I, like, just absorbed some of that and was kind of put it on my shelf, you know, as you do. But I do remember when we lived in Utah before I moved to Colorado, asking a primary teacher. I was really young, like, asking a primary teacher, didn't Joseph Smith have another wife? Like, when they were talking, teaching us about Emma and Joseph Smith, and the teacher, like, got super uncomfortable, and I was like, okay.

Guest [01:43:45] And she.

Savannah Clyde [01:43:45] And she tells me, she's like, yeah, he took on one other wife toward the end of his life, which is very much not true. But I was like, okay, that's weird. But the fact that I was asking those questions super young, I was probably just absorbing a lot of the conversations my mom was having with my grandparents. And so I was just trying to connect those dots. And so. So a lot of that stuff was kind of implanted, and I. But it was just kind of there. So, yeah, then we moved to Colorado. We had a lot of Mormon friends, but in addition to that, I was one of three Mormons in my elementary school. So, like, a lot in Colorado. Yeah, so many.

Guest [01:44:22] And what city were you guys in?

Linda Clyde [01:44:23] We were in Fort Collins.

Savannah Clyde [01:44:24] Yeah, so it's like, a little bit north of Denver.

Linda Clyde [01:44:26] You lived there when that temple got announced? Yeah, so.

Savannah Clyde [01:44:30] But I also had friends who were Catholic. I had friends who. And most of my friends didn't go to church at all. It wasn't really a big thing for them. And I remember being in our art class and we all talked about. We did on Sundays. And I remember my Catholic friend teaching me about communion. And I was like, oh, that's kind of like our sacrament thing. You know, it's different, but it's kind of similar. So I was exposed to that variety of religious views pretty early on, and so that was great. I didn't feel pressures of the community as much. I felt more free to be myself. And then it was the biggest culture shock, moving from Colorado to Utah. Like the heart of Utah County, Springville. And going into sixth grade, it was weird because all of a sudden, everyone was Mormon. And all of the standards that I kept as a Mormon in Colorado seemed to be applied to everyone, regardless of if you were a Mormon or not. They were just universal community standards rather than they were just for us.

John Dehlin [01:45:27] What town again?

Savannah Clyde [01:45:28] Springville.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] Springville. So that's also still Utah County.

Savannah Clyde [01:45:31] Yes. So it's.

John Dehlin [01:45:31] For those who don't know, it's kind

Savannah Clyde [01:45:32] of sound 15 minutes south of Provo.

Linda Clyde [01:45:34] Yeah, really close.

Savannah Clyde [01:45:36] So it was. All of a sudden, that was universal. There were churches on every corner. My elementary school was right next to a state center, and, like, even still, like, they're all over the place. And so that was a huge culture shock. And I was. I remember writing in, like, my sixth grade journal. I'm like, everybody looks at me weird, like, because I was. I was still a big personality, and a lot of people were super quiet and super cliquey. So it was just very hard to integrate into those groups because your church friends were your school friends, and if you weren't part of that already, that you didn't grow up there with them. It was a lot harder to integrate than when I moved from Utah to Colorado. And everybody was a lot more unified in Colorado just because we were kids rather than religion wasn't a huge difference. It wasn't a huge factor. So that was a huge difference.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] So you were. There were. It was cliquey. And did you struggle to find a group?

Savannah Clyde [01:46:28] Yeah, it was very difficult because, I mean, until I started, like, so the standards, I said, are a lot higher, you know, and Mormon standards in the way of, like, the lifestyle is pretty much universal. And then if you're not Mormon, you're very ostracized. You're not included unless they're trying to fellowship you.

Linda Clyde [01:46:49] Often they don't know how.

Savannah Clyde [01:46:50] Yeah, they just don't know how because it's like you're not the same when everybody's very, very similar in belief. So, yeah, it was. It was really difficult to, you know, get myself into friend groups until I started acting super Mormon, until I embodied that because, like, I mean, I was a very, like. Oh, very much an overachiever. So as soon as I realized I'm like, okay, I have to be the best Mormon I can in order to make friends, in order to adapt. And so I went all in.

Linda Clyde [01:47:20] Like, really?

Guest [01:47:21] She did.

Linda Clyde [01:47:21] Well, we were pleased.

Savannah Clyde [01:47:23] I mean. Yeah. So we moved back to Utah when I, like, right after Colorado, when I was maybe 11 or 12, I was just going into sixth grade. And, yeah, I did. I, like, started doing everything, you know, we had. And there were a lot more activities during the weekdays than there were in Colorado. And I was in young women's now, so it's like, we had church. We had, like, young women's, like, activities once a week. And. Yeah. And so I just. I was praying, I was reading my scriptures. I was, like, going to activities. I was planning activities. I got my patriarchal blessing when I was 12 years old.

John Dehlin [01:48:01] What does that mean? What's a patriarchal blessing? And when is it normally given?

Savannah Clyde [01:48:06] So patriarchal blessing is like. I mean, it's kind of a fortune telling, but, like, it's a very personal, unique blessing given to you by a ward patriarch.

John Dehlin [01:48:18] Super old. Usually a super old guy.

Linda Clyde [01:48:19] Super old guy.

Savannah Clyde [01:48:20] Super old guy, yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:48:21] That has been given the keys to give to revelation.

Savannah Clyde [01:48:24] So it's like, basically a blessing given to you from God that is written down and you get to keep, and it's kind of a guidance for your life. And so I was like, okay, I'm living all these standards. I'm doing really good Mormons and stuff. You know, I'm gonna. I think I can do it. I think I'm old enough. I'm ready to get my blessing.

John Dehlin [01:48:43] So just the baseline, I was a super devout orthodox Mormon. I think I got mine at 16.

Savannah Clyde [01:48:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:48] And I think that's kind of more normal.

Savannah Clyde [01:48:49] Yeah. 14 to 16, I feel like, is pretty normal. But I was.

John Dehlin [01:48:52] You wanted to be uber Mormon?

Guest [01:48:54] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [01:48:55] So I was 12.

Linda Clyde [01:48:56] I was 12.

Savannah Clyde [01:48:57] Yeah. I was the youngest the patriarch had ever given a blessing to.

Linda Clyde [01:49:00] We encouraged her to wait. We wanted her to wait, but she was pretty consistent. No, Mom, I feel like. I feel like I need to be ready.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:06] I'm just like, I think we'll pursue it. I'm ready. So. And then, I mean, they asked me to fast, and so I fasted. And then a couple Sundays later, we went after church to the patriarch's house and gave me, like, put his hands on my head, you know, and gave me this, like, really big, like, talk before and after, and then gave me My blessing. And it was pretty long. It tells you what tribe you are from the twelve tribes of Israel. And I was in Ephraim, so which is the big like missionary one.

Linda Clyde [01:49:37] So that's like your job.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:38] That's the job if you're in the tribe of Ephraim is the missionary work. I swear, half my blessing was about going on a mission and it told me I was gonna have a lot of kids, which was not in the cards for me. I was, I mean, when I was little, I was telling, I was asking her to like, hey, mom, will you watch my kids while I go to work? I was like, really young, like, not even kidding. I don't even remember the conversations, you know, And I was, I was, I was so little.

Linda Clyde [01:50:02] I was like too young to be thinking about that.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] But she was, you're gonna go on a mission, be a missionary?

Savannah Clyde [01:50:09] Yeah, be a mission.

Linda Clyde [01:50:10] Lots of kids.

Savannah Clyde [01:50:11] Lots of kids, yeah. And it's like basically she was already

Linda Clyde [01:50:13] trying to pawn her kids off on me.

Savannah Clyde [01:50:15] Exactly. I'm just like, yeah, my hypothetical kids I'm thinking about as like a four year old, you know, like, because that's something that's so expected of you and like they indoctrinate that into you very young, that you, you should be a mom and have kids as your number one priority. They should be your biggest goals. So I mean, I felt like that was a pretty spiritual experience, getting my patriarchal blessing. But also I. Now I look back on that and I think it's. It was so special to me because it was somebody saying, confirming, oh, you are going to be great. You are going to do something important. And it's like, that was very validating for me because that's always feelings I'd had in myself. And that was like, I'm reading like tons of books and her encouraging me. And it was all something that was confirming for me that was like, I'm gonna be something great.

Patriarchal Blessings and Hyper-Achievement

John Dehlin [01:51:00] I just have to say there are a couple more techniques that I identify there. One is kind of this idea of mystical power. So you talk about it being fortune telling, a patriarchal blessing, just like kind of priesthood, blessings for healing. It's one of these moments where the church is telling you you're about to engage in the supernatural. This guy who's super righteous and faithful, this older man now gets to talk to God and see the future for you, for you, and tell you what your future is going to be. That's, you know, if I could tell you your future, that would make me a very powerful special person. And that's what every Mormon teen is experiencing, is the impression that this man is now going to predict the future on your behalf. So that's one thing, it's imbuing in you the sense that the church, men with the priesthood have special powers, like Superman, like, yeah, definitely. But then, but then secondly, it's just something you notice about these patriarchal blessings. They never say you'll be single, you'll be a great working mom. You will, you know, you will go on and be a CEO of a major Fortune 500 corporation. You will have no kids, but you will go to Africa and serve, you know, help bring water to starving populations. Everything is always what the church wants you to do. So it's a form of telling you your future.

Savannah Clyde [01:52:26] It's pretty easy to tell the future when everybody's future is supposed to be the same.

John Dehlin [01:52:31] But it's a form of control because it's posed as foretelling the future. But what it's really doing is it's a self fulfilling prophecy. It's telling you be a mom, have lots of kids, be a missionary for the church. It's all. I'm not saying it's intentionally this way because I think the patriarchs believe that they're channeling the future. And of course it's all based on your worthiness. So if none of this comes to pass, there's the blame reversal where it's going to all be put back on you as well. You didn't live up to your righteousness, but it, but it is, unfortunately, it's a very controlling technique that basically tells you, here's your place, here's your role. You're gonna be a mommy with lots of kids, which incidentally is what your mom was before you and her mom was before her. And it's exactly the role the Church wants you to fill.

Savannah Clyde [01:53:24] Yeah. And it's like I remember being like, is that fair?

Linda Clyde [01:53:27] I don't mean, I think, no, I totally think that's fair.

Savannah Clyde [01:53:29] Yeah. I just remember being kind of disappointed. I'm just like, is there anything kind of cooler? I didn't wanna like diss on the role of like motherhood because I had always been taught that was the most important thing thing like that you could do as a woman. And I was like, okay, that's cool, but I want to do other things too. And so for quite a while during that super Mormon period of my life, I was like, okay, so I guess I'll have that later. And that'll be something I'm kind of Feeling like I have to do, I guess I'm just gonna dive in to try and be like the best future missionary that I could be. But I think the reason I played into that is because I really wanted to escape. I really wanted to travel. I had all these dreams and I'm like, okay, that's. That's the closest thing within Mormonism that fits close enough, you know, that could get me out and having life experiences and being kind of who I want to be, you know, it's close I'm going to get. So I dove into doctrine, I read a ton, and I actually got my young Woman Recognition medallion, which is kind of like, kind of like an Eagle Scout, but for young women. It's a lot less work. But yeah, you go through.

Linda Clyde [01:54:32] It's not fun.

Savannah Clyde [01:54:33] It's not fun to get it, but you do a bunch of, like, service things and read a bunch of scriptures and basically check off all these requirements

John Dehlin [01:54:40] and it's like a female Eagle Scout.

Savannah Clyde [01:54:42] Yeah, pretty much. So once you do all that, you get your Young Womanhood medallion and certificate, and it's like the highest award you can get as a young woman. And I did that like days before I finished it, days before I turned 13, as I wanted to make sure that I could do it A, before I was, before I turned 14, and B, so I could be recognized on the stand, church on Sunday as like one of the youngest people in the ward who had done that.

John Dehlin [01:55:08] And why were you wanting to hyper achieve, even in a Mormon context?

Savannah Clyde [01:55:12] I mean, I was always an overachiever. I really wanted to. I was very all in and especially like, trying to like, fit in. I just wanted to show everybody that I could be this perfect Mormon, you know, And I was very ambitious. So like, that seemed like the easiest way to do so is to just achieve as much as I could, you know, but it actually burnt me out faster.

John Dehlin [01:55:36] We'll get there.

Savannah Clyde [01:55:37] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:55:38] I'm watching you smile. Were you gonna say something?

Guest [01:55:40] I was just gonna ask. It sounds like you had a lot of this performative nature then. So did your peers and did the people at school in church, did you feel like they looked up to you and you had to, like, continue along this line?

Savannah Clyde [01:55:50] I think I was also over compensate, overcompensating for the fact that I was. I, personality wise, did not fit the mold of what Mormon, like girls were supposed to be. I was very loud, I was argumentative. I had no problem telling people when they were wrong, which kind of sucks because, like, I look back and I Was a lot of the things I did were very judgmental. Like, I was. I was that Mormon girl who's going to judge you if you weren't doing everything perfectly. Because I want to. I was making sure I was doing everything perfectly. So, yeah, it was very performative in nature, and it was definitely overcompensating for a bunch of other things. The deficits I had because I wasn't the perfect Mormon girl just by nature, I did not fit into that Mormon female role easily at all. So that was the closest thing I could get. But I did get super frustrated when all the young men got to do way cooler things.

John Dehlin [01:56:50] Like what?

Savannah Clyde [01:56:51] They got to go and, like, do all these, like, high adventure things. They got to do scouting.

Linda Clyde [01:56:55] She watched her dad taking them doing all of this.

Savannah Clyde [01:56:58] So mad.

Linda Clyde [01:57:00] I was so mad. Yeah. Which we did as a family.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:03] We, like, sat in the church and made bookmarks, like, as the young women.

Guest [01:57:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:06] And the boys were out doing high adventures.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:09] Yeah. And they always want to do, like, just domestic homemaking things. And I got really frustrated because my dad is the type of person that's like, let's go do stuff. And he would always take us canyoneering and hiking. And I went hunting with him as, like, a kid. And so it's just, like, the fact that he was taking me to do these things, but I had to do it separately as our family rather than as part of my role in the church. I was so jealous that he got to take the young men to hike King's Peak and do these overnight camping trips.

Linda Clyde [01:57:38] So you get pretty bent out of shape.

Guest [01:57:39] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:40] I was so mad. And then, I mean, at 11, I was like, hey, dad, can I do an Eagle Scout thing? Because I'd finished my young women recognition. I'm like, what's next for me? But, yeah, I was just kind of shot down just because it was like, only boys can do the eagle Scout stuff, you know?

Linda Clyde [01:57:56] Well, I mean, he was willing to walk through and do those things, but I couldn't get the official. You couldn't get the awards.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:03] I didn't end up doing it, but that was something I would have done had it been like, for me, you got your toe.

Linda Clyde [01:58:08] And Chip.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:09] I did get my tone Chip. Because I wanted a box.

Linda Clyde [01:58:13] It's a boy Scout thing to use a pocket. Pocket knife safely and whatnot. My husband made each of them do the. The scouting requirements before they could have a pocket knife.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:21] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:58:22] It's called what the totem chip is.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:24] Toten chip. Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:58:25] Okay.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:25] So it's like. Yeah, Basically safety thing you do before you can get a knife when you're a boy scout. And so once he made all of us girls do it.

Linda Clyde [01:58:33] You wanted to?

Savannah Clyde [01:58:34] I wanted to, but like before, because we wanted a pocket knife because that was cool. And so he made us do that boy scout thing beforehand, which was cool.

Linda Clyde [01:58:41] So we had no sons. He was very much. He did all the, the things you might do with sons with our girls. So he was very good that way.

Linda Reflects on Savannah's Path in the Church

John Dehlin [01:58:49] Okay, I have two super quick questions for you, Linda, as you reflect on Savannah. So there's two themes I want you to address. One is I'm already seeing her as a 12 and 13 year old girl, hyper achieve in ways that you didn't.

Linda Clyde [01:59:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:59:04] And I'm wondering as a parent, as you had all this shame and inadequacy, what it's like to see your oldest daughter. Yeah, maybe I don't want to project, but like living out the dream that you didn't live out and her becoming what you didn't become as a girl. That's the first thing.

Linda Clyde [01:59:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:59:24] And then the second one is, were you and. And treat each one separately, if you don't mind.

Linda Clyde [01:59:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:59:30] The second one is what was it like? Did you notice that her personality maybe wasn't a perfect fit with the mold? And were you sensing any of that discrepancy and how were you processing that? But let's start with how did it feel as a mom to see your daughter living the going down the path that you didn't quite follow?

Linda Clyde [01:59:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:51] Did you feel great?

Linda Clyde [01:59:52] You know, I tried to teach her from the time she was young. I was very encouraging just because I feel like my natural gifts as a kid were not like they weren't spotted, they weren't really noticed by my parents. And so that was a hard thing for me. So I was like super alert to what my kids natural gifts were. So I was always super encouraging. Okay, you're curious about Egypt. Let's go to the library and get books about Egypt. Let's go. I mean, at a really young age, she was just fascinated with cultures and she didn't really necessarily want to read all the fiction stuff. We did read fiction together, but she was like, I want to learn about people, I want to learn about cultures, I want to learn about. And so I like fed her everything I could find on those kinds of things.

Savannah Clyde [02:00:31] Before asking the librarian for books on

Linda Clyde [02:00:33] ancient, we visited libraries. We like knowledge and education was always really, really important. I was a big reader as a kid. Thank heaven. I was a big Reader. That was my saving grace. So that was the one thing I really made sure to instill in the kids. And Savannah ate it up, gobbled it up. From the time she could communicate with me. I mean, from six months, she was pointing, you know, asking me what everything was called. She was. And she could speak really early. So I loved it. I loved seeing her want to learn, and I really encouraged that. I. I knew how valuable that would be for her. And the fact that she loved it, I just really encouraged it. Thrilled. I was thrilled with that, that she was wanting to learn and was so ambitious with learning. So, yeah, I tried very hard to encourage her. I would say that. Yeah, I was encouraging. We read a lot together. I didn't. I wasn't real good at playing with my kids. I just wasn't wired that way. And I felt. I did feel guilty for that sometimes. I wasn't a good mom that way. But the way that I could be a good mom was to read with my kids, to provide, you know, opportunities like that, to learn. So I was. I loved it. I loved it that she was very ambitious and that she was the righteousness part, you know, I was. I liked seeing that at the state that. The stage that we were in. I was like, great. You know, she's on the path. She's doing the things she's supposed to do. I was proud of her when she wanted to get her blessing that early, and I was willing to help her, encourage her to if she wanted to do it. We did it. You know, I ended up getting a huge fight with my dad over that Patriarchal blessing.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:07] Yeah, we're getting to that.

Linda Clyde [02:02:08] When she got that, that was a.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:10] Yeah, that was probably the first.

John Dehlin [02:02:12] What happened.

Linda Clyde [02:02:13] So.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:15] So when they. When you get your patriarchal blessing, they have tape recorders, and they record it, and they transcribe that and write it down for you in an official, like, document, and you get that later.

Linda Clyde [02:02:25] We didn't talk to my dad about it when she got her patriarch.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:27] No, he didn't go.

John Dehlin [02:02:28] Your dad didn't go?

Linda Clyde [02:02:29] Well, her dad did. Yeah, go.

Guest [02:02:32] My dad.

Linda Clyde [02:02:33] My grandma did not.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:34] So her dad. And so when we kept it from

Linda Clyde [02:02:37] him, we didn't want him.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:38] Yeah, we didn't really tell him, but he also knew the patriarch because of, like.

Linda Clyde [02:02:42] Like, building stuff right through the airport, actually.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:44] Through the airport. Okay. So, yeah, my grandpa knew the patriarch that I'd gotten my blessing from, but we didn't really talk to him about it. We kept it under wraps because at this point, my grandparents, my mom's parents were very. Were ex Mormons. We don't talk about that. We don't spend a lot of time with them.

John Dehlin [02:03:01] They were ex Mormons.

Linda Clyde [02:03:02] Yes. My parents, yes. So when she was baptized at 8, my parents had just had their names removed from the records of the church.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:08] Both.

John Dehlin [02:03:08] What year was that?

Linda Clyde [02:03:09] It would have been. What year were you baptized? What year? 2010.

John Dehlin [02:03:13] 11 years ago.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:15] Yeah, 2010. 2011.

John Dehlin [02:03:16] 2010. Okay. So your parents. So maybe we need to back up a little bit. My timeline. 2010. So Mormon story starts in 2005. So between 2005 and 2010, that's when the Mormon Internet starts to really emerge. Blogs, podcasts, Mormon think. This is pre CES letter. This is pre gospel topics essays. But that 2005 is a. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:38] So he had a lot of books on his shelf, like, no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody. And, like, that's a book I actually have on my bookshelf now from them, which is. But, yeah, at this point, they were the ex Mormons. We didn't talk to them. We didn't.

Linda Clyde [02:03:51] We still talked to them.

John Dehlin [02:03:52] We did them at the time that they had resigned.

Linda Clyde [02:03:54] So my mom spilled the beans as we were getting ready to move to Colorado, because I was inviting her to the bathroom, Savannah's baptism. And so I was on the phone with her, and she started crying, and she said, I just want to let you know, you know, that we've had our names removed. Well, we will come. We will come, you know, but she also said, I want you to know that I chose this. That this wasn't your dad pushing it on me, because me, immediately, I would have gone straight to that. This is Dad's fault. That Dad's pressured you to not be a member anymore, you know, and I.

John Dehlin [02:04:33] So by this point, your mom has lost her faith.

Linda Clyde [02:04:36] Yes. Yes. And I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] That she hadn't. She had not brought you along on that journey.

Linda Clyde [02:04:40] No, no. She kept it pretty quiet, you know, and it was something that she and my dad were kind of working out on their own. And I'd been out of the house for a long time by that point, but I didn't know. You know, I knew that my dad was not happy with it, but he. I knew that he had said to her, I want to have my name removed. And he'd made that clear to me, too.

John Dehlin [02:04:59] Did he say why?

Linda Clyde [02:05:00] He just didn't want to be associated with the church anymore. His feelings got stronger and stronger as the years went on.

Savannah Clyde [02:05:06] I think the more you Learn that.

Linda Clyde [02:05:08] It tends to do that. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:09] But he was reading books, probably.

Linda Clyde [02:05:11] Oh, all kinds of things. Yeah. Really? I think he was pretty educated early on, but it really compounded over the years.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] Probably Grant Palmer's, you know, an insider's view of Mormon origin.

Linda Clyde [02:05:20] He read a lot. Very intellectual guy.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:05:23] So, yeah. So my mom finally was.

Guest [02:05:25] Was.

Linda Clyde [02:05:26] Was out and let us by around when we moved to Colorado, so when she was baptized.

Savannah Clyde [02:05:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:33] That's unique because normally it's the parents and the grandparents that are kind of the enforcers, you know, speaking about milieu control, they're the ones that are always pressuring their kids and grandkids to stay faithful. So this is where kind of the modern era, let's just say the past 11, 15, 11 to 15 years, things start flipping because it can be the parents and the grandparents that lose their faith first and the kids and the grandkids that are staying faithful.

Guest [02:06:01] Right.

John Dehlin [02:06:01] And so that's. That's a different experience for you to have your grandparents apostatize and resign from the church and for you to have your. Your faithful mom lose her faith and. And to tell you she's leaving the church while you're trying to become more faithful. So you and your daughter and your family are becoming more faithful while, Linda, your parents are leaving the church and becoming more angry at the church.

Linda Clyde [02:06:30] What's that like, boy? The rift grew between me and my parents. It got to the point where there was not tons of communication. Every communication we had was stressful because that was the elephant in the room, you know, any conversation. Because we were. We were doing things right. My husband and I and our kids, we were doing things right at that point. And knowing that my mom and dad were completely out, I really did blame my dad. I blamed my dad for my mom's loss of faith. But she. And she tried to assure me that it was her, you know, that she'd done some reading. And I was like, no way. Because my dad was so just a strong personality. My mom's a little more passive. I was like, it's all you, dad. You know, I blamed it on him. And he. When my younger sister got married in the temple, my parents did not go through my. Both my parents were outside by that point because they were no longer members. So, I mean, I have two younger

Family Members Missing Temple Ceremonies

John Dehlin [02:07:23] sisters, so they missed your sister's wedding.

Linda Clyde [02:07:25] They missed both of my younger sisters weddings.

John Dehlin [02:07:27] I just want to. I just want to be clear. These are. In Mormonism, if parents leave the church, they don't get to attend their Own children's weddings, things. Yeah, Just sit with that for a minute.

Linda Clyde [02:07:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] Imagine that. All these strangers and neighbors get to watch your children get married, your daughter, your son get married, and you're sitting outside the temple and you're missing the whole thing. There's the Scarlet Letter. Shame about that. And then there's just the kind of exclusion that is inhumane, shameful. I think.

Linda Clyde [02:08:01] Yeah. Super painful for my parents. So, yeah, my sister, that's just younger than me, when she went through me and my older sister were there, and I think my. I can't remember. My youngest sister probably wouldn't have been there. I don't remember. But I remember. I do remember walking out of the temple that day and seeing my parents outside the temple. And while we had been inside the temple, actually, I think maybe all of us were there, all my sisters, because there was a relative that had said to us while we were in the temple, you need to tell your mom that she's done such a great job with you kids, you know, because we were all in there, yet my parents were sitting outside. So we went out and I told my mom that, you know, I said, mom, you know, you need to know that you did a good job. You know, how awful. Now that I think back on it, you know, but the second I spoke to my mother, my dad had my arm in a lock and was dragging me away from her and said, don't you think for a second that she's. That she's not in there, you know, because. Because she. What? I can't remember what he said to me. He was protecting my mom, you know, because of what she. He knew what she was going through in that moment. And it was such an emotionally intense thing for them to be sitting outside. But I just remember his intensity and him protecting my mom. When I was speaking to my mom, and I wasn't speaking mean to her or anything. I was just letting her know what. That she'd done a good job and that somebody else was praising how well they'd done, you know, that all their kids were there in the temple. And thinking back on that now, I was like, I hated my dad in that moment because he was so intense. And I just remember thinking that his spirit was so. The spirit he brought with him to the temple was so awful. You know, we were just inside having this beautiful experience, and I come out and my dad is angry, you know, so the contradiction. But I associated it with evil. I didn't associate it with pain, you know, and it's easy for me to do now. My gosh, I can't believe I didn't associate it with pain. I look at it now in hindsight, it's 2020, you know, but I didn't have compassion for my parents in that moment. I was angry at my parents and hurt that they would have those reactions because we were all doing things right, you know, so. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:11] And this is just, you know, I just have to call these things out because I'm trying to, I'm trying to understand them better. And I hope this is helpful, helpful to some of our listeners to start paying attention to this. Number one, Mormons are taught that any negative emotion is bad. So contention's bad, disagreeing is bad and anger's bad. It's, it's all what contention is.

Linda Clyde [02:10:31] It's evil.

John Dehlin [02:10:32] It's evil.

Linda Clyde [02:10:32] It's from the devil. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:34] And so that means that, you know, your dad is, is bad for being angry and sad. So he's being. Your parents are being left out of their own daughters weddings. Their other children who are faithful are able to attend, but they're missing their own children's weddings not because they're bad people, but because they learn things and just decided this belief system didn't work for them. They're being excluded from their own children's weddings. Which of course you're going to be angry.

Linda Clyde [02:11:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:07] And hurt and sad and defensive. And that's healthy. That's good for you to be angry and sad and disappointed that a church is dividing your family, keeping you out of your own children's weddings. But then the church will teach its members that those, see ex Mormons, you leave the church and you're angry. You're bitter.

Linda Clyde [02:11:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:29] And so then that becomes this, this reinforcing thing to the believer that. Yep. See, mom and dad are bitter. Mom and dad are angry and that's of the devil and that's contention. And so this is just a very. I don't mean to be pedantic, I don't mean to be ham fisted, but this is where the rubber meets the road. This is where this supposedly beautiful teaching of eternal families that's supposed to be just so it's, it's the Mormon Church's main selling point. It's their premium prize, the eternal family. That teaching becomes so sinister and pernicious because what it's really doing is just fracturing and sowing contention in a family and making non believers out to be horrible bad people and sowing contention between father and daughter, between parents and children.

Guest [02:12:26] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:12:26] Making him evil even to his daughter, you know, that I'm thinking that I'm feeling, you know, evil coming off of him when it's just. It was pain. It was just raw pain, you know, so healthy pain. Yeah, very healthy pain for what he was experiencing. So. And what my mom was experiencing, I can't imagine. I probably will never have to experience that, that kind of pain, you know, So I have a lot of compassion now for that. But these teachings have always caused pain in my family. Always. You know, from. From my grandparents to my parents to me, this, the going to the temple and these teachings have. Have never brought me joy in my relationships with my family members. It's always brought pain. It's because there's always been somebody that can't conform completely. So. Yeah. And the other. What was the other question you wanted me to answer about Savannah? Jumping back to that, seeing her being

Savannah's Faith Crisis Begins

John Dehlin [02:13:29] super righteous and then noticing a discrepancy between her personality. Strong, assertive. And how, you know, were you seeing how that might. At 12 and 13, did you have any premonition that that might not serve her well going down the Mormon way? Right.

Savannah Clyde [02:13:48] There was a lot of. There was a lot of tone it downs.

Linda Clyde [02:13:51] Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I was asking her to tone it down a lot.

John Dehlin [02:13:55] How was that for you?

Savannah Clyde [02:13:57] It was hard because I'm just like, I. I didn't feel like I needed to be turned, like turned down. I mean, at this. While I was living the super righteous thing, I was also like, if I can be a strong woman, I want to encourage other people. So I had a lot of themes of like feminism and like women empowerment early on. And I was very. I was trying really hard to like incorporate those. Like, I mean, when I was in like a Miami presidency and stuff, I was trying to get. So we were going and doing cool things like the boy Scouts did. And that didn't fly with the other young woman. It didn't fly with the other young woman because they're like, no, that's stuff was wired differently than the other young

Linda Clyde [02:14:35] women in our particular ward.

Savannah Clyde [02:14:37] They liked the home very gender stratified very much. The gender roles were very strong. And I just didn't like she stood

Linda Clyde [02:14:43] out like a sore thumb.

Guest [02:14:44] Well.

Savannah Clyde [02:14:44] And it was also I had both parents working, so it's like I didn't see why not. Like, I mean, we had a functional family. Like, I didn't understand why.

Linda Clyde [02:14:52] Yeah. Real quick, just so. So moving back from Colorado within six months, I was working for the church. And we will tell that Story. But so she was see, seeing parents work. She did see me work in Colorado

Savannah Clyde [02:15:02] some and then dad working and then it was a flip flop, you know,

Linda Clyde [02:15:05] and so that's why we're so close

Savannah Clyde [02:15:08] as a family is because we had both, both parents in and out of the home so much.

Linda Clyde [02:15:11] Yeah, we both, we both parented our children. You know, early on it was mostly me at home with the little ones, but by the time she was 8 and older, we really, we both parented, had really strong parenting roles, both earned income, worked. Yes. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:15:28] So I mean, that was hard. I feel like there was a bunch of stuff in my personality that I just, that was just not right. It was kind of villainized almost.

Linda Clyde [02:15:38] Well, yeah, in our word it was. But as far as my perspective with that, I always said it's going to serve you well someday your personality. People might not like it right now, they might not understand right now. But my, my message to her, I said, as a woman, it's going to serve you well. I knew it would. And so I, I kept hoping for

Savannah Clyde [02:15:58] that and that was kind of what kept us like going.

Linda Clyde [02:16:01] Yeah, I, I, so I, I encouraged it. I, I did have occasionally I had some concerns, but I didn't realize the problem that lay ahead of us and the experiences that she would feel culturally until later, like how intense it would become for her until a little bit later. 12 was a little early and she wasn't really completely coming into her own yet.

Savannah Clyde [02:16:30] Yeah, because, I mean, I enjoyed a lot of the craft. I was very crafty. I enjoyed artistic. Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:16:36] You didn't love the crafts.

Savannah Clyde [02:16:37] Okay. Some of the crafts. Because they wanted me to do it exactly how like, and I was very much like, oh, I want to do this.

Linda Clyde [02:16:41] My, we have a non, non conformity blood a little bit in our family. So.

Savannah Clyde [02:16:45] Yeah. But anyway, so that was, that was difficult, but I still was really trying to live the church stuff. But like watching all of this stuff with my grandpa, he was kind of like almost painted in a dangerous light. We didn't ever want to talk to grandpa about church. And I remember like, I have this one, one memory of my mom arguing with my grandma about church stuff and I was trying to keep my little siblings in the basement playing so they didn't hear a lot of that stuff. So I like kind of had to sometimes had to step into that protective older sister role to keep my sisters like out of that, those negative emotions. So that kind of those negative emotions did trickle down to some extent. And I think the biggest blowout where I didn't talk to my grandpa for a couple years after my patriarchal blessing because he had taken me and one of my cousins rollerblading for the day. And so we were rollerblading on this trail and he was just attacking religion over and over. And me as this 12, 13 year old who is really trying to be faithful, really trying to do everything I'm supposed to. I'm just almost like verbally fighting my grandpa about all these things and just, I mean, he brought up all sorts of topics and called. He would. He referred to my patriarchal blessing as fortune telling because I told him about it because that was a big thing as a 12 year old. I'm like, guess what, grandpa? I got my patriarchal blessing.

Linda Clyde [02:17:56] I don't think he would have known about it if you hadn't been with him that day.

Guest [02:17:59] And.

Linda Clyde [02:17:59] And the patriarch called to come and pick it up.

Savannah Clyde [02:18:02] Yeah. So the patriarch called and said, hey, it's ready if you want to come pick it up. And my grandpa was like, oh, I know, I know him. I, I can, we can go get it when we. I take you home. And so I. This. Yeah, it was really hard because I'm like, oh, grandpa, I'll just go in and get it. You don't have to come in. And he's like, no, I want to come in. I want to say hi. Like, I want to. And there was this huge tension between the patriarch and my grandpa as I'm trying to get my patriarchal blessing and the patriarch, he gives me this big hug and he's like, you're special. Don't ever forget that. And I'm like, okay. So now I'm just like, it's this big conflict.

Linda Clyde [02:18:38] We're in a position where my dad's being villainized.

John Dehlin [02:18:40] What did he want? What was he trying to do?

Savannah Clyde [02:18:43] He was.

Linda Clyde [02:18:43] He just went in to visit with the patriarch because he knew him on. It was on a first name basis as friends. My dad's pretty well known in the community and just knows the patriarch. So he happened to have Savannah with him when the patriarchal blessing was ready to pick up to take home. So my dad was the one that took her to the patriarch's home to pick it up, went in and visited and there was tension about what it was. Patriarch.

John Dehlin [02:19:07] Any idea what your dad was thinking or feeling?

Savannah Clyde [02:19:09] He just probably thought it was dumb.

Linda Clyde [02:19:11] Well, he and I had a blow up a few days later at a family gathering about it and he said, he told me that it was fortune telling and just given me that Whole line and I bit back. And I didn't usually do that with him, but it was really uncomfortable and he started bringing up all kinds of things that he'd been learning. I wasn't in a space to hear it, you know. So our relationship was really strained at that point and I really did not like him and I did not want him to be around my kids. And I'm so sad saying it now.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] Well, again, this is like so important that we talk about this or at least shine a light on it.

Linda Clyde [02:19:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:58] From your dad's perspective. Well, from you as a believer, your perspective is here's this man who's trained, he's desecrating our sacred beliefs. He's anti Mormon, he's trying to tear down my sacred beliefs. He's fighting against God and Jesus and all righteousness. What a wicked, evil, bad man.

Linda Clyde [02:20:18] I thought of something I do want to share.

John Dehlin [02:20:20] Yeah, okay. Well, I'll just say from your perspective, it's what a wicked, evil, bad man that's trying to tear our faith down and fight against Jesus and God.

Linda Clyde [02:20:29] Yeah, I do.

John Dehlin [02:20:29] That's your perspective. And that's valid.

Guest [02:20:31] Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:32] And then from his perspective, it's like, I'm trying to save. He's feeling like his child and his grandchildren maybe are in a cult or maybe in a high demand religion or maybe just are going down a path. That's not true, that's not right. That could hurt them later. So from his perspective, he's just saying, I'm trying to wake up, I'm trying to save my child. I'm trying to save my grandchildren from further pain later. I'm trying to help them not live base their life in something that isn't true. But you're seeing him as evil and wicked. He's seeing himself as trying to help you.

Linda Clyde [02:21:08] How do you bridge that gap? It's so hard to bridge that gap. You know, in that moment when we had that blowup, I do remember the one thing that he said that set me off the very most. And I said it was something about, I said, would you kill my children's fake. You know, and he said, absolutely, absolutely, I would kill their faith. You know, I would take down their faith. And I felt like I'd been smacked, you know, and I'm like, what more confirmation do I need to keep them away from you then, you know, if you're not going to help them have faith and believe in God and believe in and you know, equating God and the religion as one, you know, that it's all lumped together as one. You know, I. I was so upset, and we. There was no way we were going to be able to. To bridge the gap or meet in the middle. It just. It just tore us apart. My relationship with my dad was terrible at that time, you know, and. And to have my children be. You know, the sparks for some of these. These awful interactions was. Was really hard, too, because I want them to be able to spend time with their grandpa. I want him to have these. This relationship with my dad. I love my dad. He's a great man.

John Dehlin [02:22:18] You do love him?

Linda Clyde [02:22:19] Oh, absolutely. I absolutely love my dad. Cherish my dad.

Savannah Clyde [02:22:26] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:22:26] So it's hard. It's hard to think how much I've heard him, but it was unknowing. He knows, you know, I never meant to hurt him. So. Yeah, he is a great man, and he will always be a great man to me.

Savannah Clyde [02:22:39] And those moments were hard. Yeah. Take it away. And after that experience, like, with my grandpa, just kind of, like, attacking my beliefs, and that was a new thing for me. I was 12. I was like, I was 12. Yeah, because.

John Dehlin [02:22:50] And he has so much more power than you.

Savannah Clyde [02:22:53] Yeah, exactly. I'm just like, okay, like, grandpa, why are you attacking these things that are so special to me and that I feel very proud of? Because, I mean, at this point, I'm

Linda Clyde [02:23:01] this huge church overachiever.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:03] I'm like, I'm being ambitious. I'm doing the things I'm supposed to. And this was the first time. And the first time that my beliefs were attacked was by my grandpa. And that was on the side of the family. That was on the side of the family that I got along with better. I always got along better with my mom's side of the family than my dad's side, because my dad's side, super traditional, super Mormon. And even though I was, like, very Mormon at the time, I still, like, got along better with my mom's side. And so. And then I didn't talk to my grandpa for a few years after that, just because that hurt so much as a kid. And I spent very minimal time with my mom's side of the family because it was like, this is so bad. I don't need this on my journey, you know? And I think there was, like, a little sprinkle of, like, well, I guess they're not gonna be there in heaven when I get there, which was a very hard thing. And I'm like, I should. Looking back, I'm like, you're 12. You shouldn't be thinking about an eternal perspective. You shouldn't have to be grieving a hypothetical loss of family members. You shouldn't be dealing with all these big existential problems. You should be being a kid and, like, enjoying life before you, like, are an adult, you know? And I feel like a lot of that stuff made me mature a lot faster than I would have liked to. I mean, I was. I was always told I was very mature for my age, and I think that came from a lot. Dealing with a lot of, like, big concepts very young. It was all very tough stuff to, like, think about as a kid. And I remember being, like, super worried about, like, second coming stuff. Like, I was. I mean, I was 12, 13. Around that time I got my patriarchal blessing. I was really diving into, like, Joseph Smith, Matthew, which is, like, the whole part of the Book of Mormon that's talking about when Jesus comes again and all the terrible things that are gonna happen and what we need to do to be prepared for that. And so I'm just. This is a very real thing for me.

Beliefs About the Second Coming and Missionary Conversations

John Dehlin [02:24:53] What about the second coming?

Savannah Clyde [02:24:54] It was like. I mean, in my patriarchal blessing, I was told, when the second coming happens, you will be called forward, and all the righteous people that you help convert will follow behind you. So in my brain, I'm just like, okay, God's gonna come down. He's gonna be like, savannah, you were righteous. Like, and then bring all the people you helped convert with you.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] And when immormonism happens to the people who aren't righteous during the second coming,

Savannah Clyde [02:25:20] they go to outer darkness, which is worse than that.

John Dehlin [02:25:23] They get burned.

Savannah Clyde [02:25:24] Burned and destroyed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:26] Hail and fire. It's just awful and lava. And so the wicked are burned.

Linda Clyde [02:25:31] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:25:31] And so it's like, I knew that there was no way to. Because my grandpa's very stubborn, very blunt, which I feel like I got some of those qualities, actually. But, yeah, I'm like, okay, I guess I don't want to spend time with him. I don't want to get attached to him because he's not going to be there. And that was a very, very real fact for me. And so I kind of kept going with.

Linda Clyde [02:25:51] I didn't tell her that.

Savannah Clyde [02:25:53] I know, but, like, I was doing a ton of reading on my own. I loved books. I loved reading. I loved all the stories. Like, I love stories, like. And especially, like, genes, like the creation myth and Genesis and all that jazz, you know, very, like, a very intellectual approach to things, and I just want to learn as much as I can. And that was a very real concept for me because I was being told that is real. And.

Linda Clyde [02:26:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:19] So you're saying you went a couple years. Did I hear you say that? Right. You went a couple years without really talking to your grandpa?

Savannah Clyde [02:26:25] Yeah, there's definitely a gap in there where I just don't have any memories speaking to him. So. And it was. I don't really, I didn't really rekindle that relationship with my grandpa until I was maybe like 16 or 17.

John Dehlin [02:26:38] So let me just take a tiny, quick moment just to. This is kind of a coaching moment for people because I care about family. We care about families. That's one of the main things we're trying to do, is keep families together. If you are going through a faith crisis and you're a parent or a grandparent or spouse, doesn't matter. Or kid, the most important thing you can do is make your believing family feel safe. It's way more important to make them feel safe than to try and educate them or change their mind. Because if you get angry and forceful with them and try and cram your knowledge down their throats, what you create is called the backfire effect, which means they actually cling tighter to their beliefs and then they what you don't want, you don't want them believing more strongly in the things that you don't believe. But then they also push you away because they see you as unsafe and as dangerous and as bad and evil. So your strategy as a questioner and or non believer with your belief family has to be, I will not talk to you about my doubts. I will keep them private and I will just do whatever I can to make you feel safe. Spouse make you feel safe. Mom and dad, grandma and grandpa make you feel safe, child or grandchild. And that way they want to keep you in their lives. And that way later they will become more open to asking you questions or getting feedback when their own questions naturally arise. You'll feel safe to them. And again, you won't be creating the opposite thing that you want, which is distance from them and strengthening their beliefs. And I just, I have to call that out because it is the counterintuitive, smartest way to approach believing family and friends, for sure.

Linda Clyde [02:28:33] Oh, yeah, I think that that's fair, but it's super hard to do. Yeah. And my dad wasn't always good at it, but boy, he got better at it.

Savannah Clyde [02:28:41] Yeah, he's gotten so much better because

Linda Clyde [02:28:43] of his love for us. Like, he got a lot better at that. He would hold his tongue, he would try to support us when he could, he got really, really good at it. And. And for his personality type, that was extremely difficult. So hats off to my dad. He got a lot better at that. He did, he did.

Savannah Clyde [02:29:00] So, yeah, that was definitely the first relationship I really cut off due to religion. And there were. Unfortunately, there were a lot more to follow because as I went into junior high, I was very much a goody two shoes in addition to my, like, church stuff. So I was this very. I had. I felt very superior. I was very, like, academically, like, inclined. I got a ton of like, awards in school. I got all my religion stuff. I was a very good church attending. And at this point I'm like, okay, I need to start converting my friends. Because I'd found like a really good seventh grade, like, friend group that I hung out with every day in the library. And half of them were not Mormon. And so I had had like, handful that I like, saw at like stake activities. But then the other half, it was like, we never. We didn't see them on the weekends or anything just because we didn't see them at church. And I tried very hard to convert them all and eventually it was just like, they were like, dude, we can't deal with you pushing all these beliefs. We're not like that we. This isn't like. That's crazy. Like you're. I mean, now I look at it and it's like you're asking somebody to change their entire lifestyle.

Guest [02:30:12] You know, what were the kind of things that you'd say to them or conversations you had with them?

Savannah Clyde [02:30:15] I would get after them for like, for swearing and dirty jokes. And I would get. I would just like get mad at them for like, policing them. Policing them.

Linda Clyde [02:30:23] Basically Driving away the spirit.

Savannah Clyde [02:30:25] Exactly. So it's just. Yeah. I would try to get them to come to church and when they didn't want to, I was like, well, I don't want you guys to like, go to hell, you know? And eventually I actually had friends cut me off and I cut friends off, really. Some of which I've actually been able to rekindle now that I'm not in the church anymore. And one of them is actually my roommate now. Yeah, I mean, they had me blocked for like five years.

Linda Clyde [02:30:51] They discovered.

Savannah Clyde [02:30:51] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:30:52] Discovered that it was kind of blocked because.

Savannah Clyde [02:30:55] Yeah. So he's my roommate now, but we were friends in like seventh, eighth grade. And he was, he was never a Mormon, but we were friends. And I just got so sick of

Linda Clyde [02:31:06] all of his jokes.

Savannah Clyde [02:31:07] He was always like doing all this stuff and he Wasn't even that bad. I look back now and I'm like, that was so minimal. But eventually it got to. To the point where I told him he needed to like, fix his life basically. And he like, we stopped talking, but I guess he blocked me. And then years later, after we graduate high school, we start talking again and we have a mutual friend who is also in that seventh grade friend group. And we can't. He's picking me up from the airport and I can't. We can't figure out why the phone, like, he can't call me and I can't call him, you know. And then a couple weeks later, he was like, do you still have the same number? From when? From seventh grade. And I was like, yeah. Why? And he's like, he unblocks me on his phone.

Linda Clyde [02:31:46] He had it blocked.

Savannah Clyde [02:31:47] And I cried. I was just like, oh my gosh. Because it's like I felt so much guilt for all the things I'd said and guilted people for not being like good enough Mormons or not even being Mormon. And I ruined a lot of relationships very early on do to that.

Linda Clyde [02:32:05] I had no idea she was doing that. I wasn't encouraging missionary behavior.

John Dehlin [02:32:10] What do you mean you're supposed to do?

Savannah Clyde [02:32:11] I mean, when you are a righteous person, your number one priority becomes converting people. And especially where I just gotten my patriarchal blessing, where I was in the tribe of Ephraim. My job was to be a missionary. Half my blessing, half my blessing was like, you're gonna preach to many lands, to many people, and you're gonna prepare a lot of people a lot of happiness by bringing them to the church. And I remember telling one of my other friends, like, I'm gonna convert you. Like, I brought her to church a couple times and she was like, you

Guest [02:32:39] said, I'm gonna convert you.

Linda Clyde [02:32:40] Yeah, I did.

Savannah Clyde [02:32:41] I was like, I was just 12. Yeah. I was a seventh grader. And like, eventually that was kind of. Yeah. And I mean, up through eighth grade, I was very much a goody two shoes. Very Mormon. Yeah, just very much so were the only friends that I had were others who were very, very Mormon. So eventually all the non Mormon friends I'd had faded away or like got cut off or they cut me off. And all those friendships stopped and the only ones I had left were all my Mormon friends. And then eventually I got.

John Dehlin [02:33:14] Yeah, so don't forget what you're about to say. I just want to call this out. So there's a couple things going on there. One is high demand Religions and organizations teach cultural superiority. They teach that believers and in group members are superior to out group members, which of course creates. Of course creates this natural division. They have to teach a sense of superiority. They also teach proselytizing. So, you know, you wanting to be a missionary, it's just a way to make you reinforce the fact that you are superior and that you have a lot to teach other people. And there's also milieu control going on because all these people in Utah county that aren't living the standards are getting excluded from things, which then sends a message, hey, if you want to be included, you need to get with the program and join the group. And so all of these things are coming by you very naturally because these are really important reinforcement techniques, techniques that the church and high demand religions use to their advent to their advantage. So you're just. You're coming by it honestly, because that's how the system is designed.

Savannah Clyde [02:34:27] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:34:28] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:34:29] Yeah. So all my friends up through, like, 8th and 9th grade were all Mormon. Like, all very good Mormons too. Like, ones that followed all the rules and all the standards. And I mean, we did group temple trips and things. We all went to girls camp together, we went to youth conference together. And then I was. I just felt. I just didn't feel right. I was like. My mental health started spiraling. I just didn't ever feel fully, like, include. Like, no matter how much I did or how good of a Mormon I was, I always didn't fit the mold just because of. I felt who I felt I was and how my ambition, ambitions, and I mean, you're told, like, all the things, like, to be like, as a woman, you know, you're just like, you're gonna be a mom. And I wanted a career. Like, I was very. I was very driven. Like, I. And I'm like, okay. So I had to deal with this, trying to compartmentalize, how am I gonna do both? Like, there's no way that I'm gonna have the life I want if I have kids. And, like. And it's just. Yeah. So all of that was really hard. And for those things, I got a lot of backlash. And I always ask so many questions. So, like, all of a sudden, I completely surrounded myself with this church atmosphere, and it was closing in on me. So I would ask a ton of questions in Sunday school, and I would get shot down by my classmates and my teachers. And I was a huge history buff. And I was like, that doesn't sound right for a lot of things I had. So I actually Had a young women's leader teach us that Columbus and Henry VIII were both, like, sent by God to further the church thing so that the Mormon Church could exist. And in that same year, I had learned that Columbus was the reason we had a mass genocide and that Henry VIII literally created the Church of England so he could divorce his wife. And so in my brain, I'm just like, these were not good guys. These are actually some of the worst ones we got.

John Dehlin [02:36:34] I think he decapitated his.

Savannah Clyde [02:36:35] Yeah, he, like. I mean, he had a bunch of them. Some of them. He decapitated some of them. He, like, created the Church of England so he could divorce them. But, yeah, I had this teacher saying that, like, these were divine men who were, like, put there so that the church could exist later in America.

Linda Clyde [02:36:49] Just like, wait a minute.

Savannah Clyde [02:36:50] I'm just like, listen, sister. I don't think that's right.

Linda Clyde [02:36:55] Did you call her out that day? I remember talking about it after church. We had a conversation after church.

Savannah Clyde [02:37:01] I think I may have walked out actually, and, like, gone, like, just to leave the classroom. Cause I was like, I can't deal with this because I'd already been shot down for a bunch of other things. Cause, like, I. I remember advocating for, like, other religions and how other religions kind of understood other concepts better. Like supposing, like, the Mormon Church was the only true church, but other religions had pieces, right? And some of the. I think I said, other religions have other pieces that they probably understand better than we do, even though we have the same pieces. And then I had another young woman snap at me and be like, but this is the only true one. Like, the only completely true one. And I'm just like, okay. And so it was. That was happening over and over again from teachers and, like, bishops and classmates.

Linda Clyde [02:37:44] And I wasn't with her. Like, I wasn't with her in these classes at church when a lot of this stuff was happening. So I was hearing a little bit. It started to happen a little bit after church. We would discuss some of the things, the experiences that she was having. So it was slow, but it was steady.

Savannah Clyde [02:37:58] And it just happened over and over again. And then I got to the point where I'm just like, okay, I need to make sure that if I'm going to do all this, like, fully and be fully in, I need to understand the complete history. And that's when you dive into things. I started reading as much as I could get my hands on. I read gospel topics essays. My mom actually has this Bible that has different versions of The Bible all side by side, so you can see the difference in comparison. And so eventually, when I was, like, 16, 17, I started, like, staying home from church or leaving early sometimes, and I would do my own Bible study because I found it way more. I learned way more on my own from that.

Linda Clyde [02:38:39] Rather, she was getting in church. She wasn't getting.

Savannah Clyde [02:38:40] I wasn't getting anything because, like, it was all the same things. Eventually.

Linda Clyde [02:38:44] That intellect and feeding that heart, it wasn't.

Savannah Clyde [02:38:46] Yeah. So I wanted to have a full understanding. And then all of a sudden, just like, the more and more, like, things pile up, I mean, we talk about. Yeah.

Linda's Complicated Relationship With Her Bishop

John Dehlin [02:38:54] So what I want to do is. I know that. I know, Linda, that you have your whole, you know, parallel to this, and even before you're having. You. You become an employee. Employee of the church, and you're working for the church, and a combination of your experiences with the church and then seeing how things start to unravel for Savannah.

Linda Clyde [02:39:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:17] That becomes kind of where for the whole family, everything starts to unravel. So if it's okay, Savannah, like, I think you've brought us to a really important point, which is how things start unraveling for you. Is that right?

Savannah Clyde [02:39:29] This is true.

John Dehlin [02:39:30] So. So, I mean, that's. Thank you for taking us to that point. Is. Is it okay if we pause that?

Savannah Clyde [02:39:36] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:39:37] We'll go back to your mom's journey with the church.

Savannah Clyde [02:39:39] Yeah, this one's great.

John Dehlin [02:39:40] And then we'll take it, and we'll come right back to the point where then those things kind of come together and really start. But what I hear from you is saying that things started to unravel.

Savannah Clyde [02:39:50] Oh, yeah. Just the culture got very, very toxic when you start asking questions. And all of a sudden it was, oh, she's that one. I got written off as the ward feminist, and I just asked way too many questions.

John Dehlin [02:40:04] Well, we want to hear all. I literally want to hear every single one of those questions, and I want to understand in depth how your faith unraveled. I just want to.

Savannah Clyde [02:40:13] Yeah, we can totally jump over this.

John Dehlin [02:40:14] We'll jump back to your mom's story, and then we'll come right back to it, and we'll hit that very hard and in depth. So I don't want you to feel ignored or silenced. We're going to. We're going to dig deep.

Savannah Clyde [02:40:23] All right. All right.

Guest [02:40:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:24] Okay. All right. Okay. So, Linda, let's back up a little bit now. Okay. And when you come back from Colorado, Fort Collins, when you come back, when you move To Utah from Fort Collins. An interesting relationship that you end up having with your bishop.

Linda Clyde [02:40:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:40:43] Leads to you working for the church. Is that. Is that maybe the next episode?

Linda Clyde [02:40:47] I'll back you up even a little bit further just to kind of talk about this relationship with the bishop.

John Dehlin [02:40:54] And Savannah's story is a cliffhanger. Savannah's story is a cliffhanger that we're going to come back to.

Linda Clyde [02:40:59] Yeah. So we lived in Mapleton. We had a small home in Mapleton that we lived in before we moved to Colorado. Okay. So my relationship with this particular bishop that I want to kind of bring into the story started there. So before we ever even left to Colorado. Like I said, I had daddy issues. I had these religious issues with my dad. I had all of these problems that I was trying to deal with. And so while we were living in Mapleton, while the three kids were young, we were going to church, pretty steady at that point. And my bishop there. And I'm going to try really hard not to say his name because he's a big part of my story. So I'll talk about him a fair amount. But I started talking to him one on one and building a relationship with him. And he. He stepped in as almost kind of like a father figure for me and just filled a little bit of a hole. He was very willing to talk about spirituality, very compassionate individual. I was in a very, very vulnerable place when it came to just my situation with my dad. It was always in my heart, always on my mind. It was just such a huge part of my story. And so he stepped in and kind of made me think. Feel special, you know, that I just. That my spirituality was a gift, a lot of those kinds of things. But during the period that we lived in this house, it was four or five years that we lived in that house in Mapleton when the kids were young. He was our bishop that entire time. Exmo. Lex was in our ward.

John Dehlin [02:42:38] So this is the same Lexi McDonald.

Linda Clyde [02:42:40] Lexi McDonald, she's in the ward? Yes. She was the little one. She was young. She's a little bit older than Savannah.

John Dehlin [02:42:45] She was a teen.

Linda Clyde [02:42:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:47] Okay.

Guest [02:42:47] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:42:48] So, yeah, so same word. Yeah. So I don't know that she will remember me, but my husband served with her dad. So for the time that we're there. So this particular bishop, I felt I did fall away for about six months during the time that we lived in this first Mapleton house. And the reason was I was up at my parents house one day. Nobody was up there. And I noticed the book, the 19th wife sitting on my dad's dad's counter in his kitchen. And curiosity killed the cat. Like, I started just kind of thumbing through it because I. I like books, I like to learn. And I stole it, I brought. I took it home and I read the whole thing cover to cover, like. Like that. I mean, it was. I couldn't. I couldn't put it down.

Guest [02:43:30] Do you want to go into what that book?

Linda Clyde [02:43:32] That book is a book about one of Brigham Young's wives that went rogue, kind of really in a nutshell, you know. So she basically told her story early on and met rogue.

John Dehlin [02:43:44] Went rogue in what way?

Linda Clyde [02:43:46] Against Mormonism, against Brigham Young, against. Lost her faith and told the whole story. So for me to find that book and read it was really, really eye opening. I'd never read anything that was considered anti at that point. But I was so curious, you know, what's driving my dad, you know, it was just a curiosity thing. So I took it home, read it, fell away for six months. Like after that, we did not go to church for six months.

Savannah Clyde [02:44:07] Really?

Linda Clyde [02:44:08] Yeah. So I had kind of a first little mini faith crisis during that time and this. And my husband has been great through all of my faith in and out, all my experiences. He's been great, Lets me drive the religion bus and he just kind of does what I do. He stayed home with us, supported us, was really great. But this bishop reached out to me kind of after the six months, and I had been not very nice to even primary teachers that came to our door trying to take. Bring things to my kids at that time, and just said, you don't think I'm teaching my kids about God? You know, don't like I've got it kind of a thing. I wasn't, I wasn't super nice to one or two people that were trying to fellowship at that time. But this bishop decided he was going to reach out and he wanted to talk to me about it. That's when we really started developing this relationship. And he said, when I told him, I'm like, look, I have questions. There's some. I read some things that are really hard for me. And he told me, he says, why are you looking for diamonds in sewage? You know, that was the line that he gave me. And it made sense at the time. It's like, yeah, it doesn't feel very good. It does feel like sewage. It's awful, awful stuff. And I don't want to read it anymore. I don't want to learn anymore about it. I don't want to. And I really. I really hadn't gone past that book. I didn't dive any deeper.

John Dehlin [02:45:24] And I just have to call it out. That's a thought stopping cliche is what that's called. Yeah, it's. It's some pithy quote that packs a very heavy emotional punch that gets you to stop learning and stop thinking. Because high demand religions have to control the information that their members receive. And they have. Because they need to control them from having questions that might lead to doubts and then disbelief. And so things like, they leave the church, they can't leave it alone.

Boundary Violations and Dual Relationships in the Ward

Linda Clyde [02:45:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:57] Doubt your doubts.

Linda Clyde [02:45:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:59] Why are you looking for diamonds and sewage? Those are all thought stopping techniques to get you not. Not to learn. And I'm not saying that Bishop's a bad human.

Linda Clyde [02:46:09] No, he's not.

John Dehlin [02:46:10] But it's. We have to learn to call out these techniques because they're effective.

Linda Clyde [02:46:14] Oh, unfortunately, yeah, it was. It was effective for me, you know, and like I said, I was in a vulnerable place. And he stepped in, you know, during that time and said, you know, and he'd said, too. I read a lot of those things too, and kind of told me his story that he had been ostracized from his family when he converted as an older teenager, you know, so shared his story with me. And so we just. I just felt like we had a lot in common. He was a writer. I wanted to be a writer. So we just had a lot of these commonalities. We're both super into spirituality, both pretty creative. We just had lots in common. So he became kind of a father figure for me. And I just revered him. Revered him. Would have done anything to please him. It was kind of a. It was a. I just transferred these feelings that I wanted to have for my dad to him, and it was unhealthy. It was kind of. We just would have these really deep spiritual conversations. And it was never, never ever in a. In a bad way or anything, you know, but it's like, what do you

John Dehlin [02:47:18] mean never in a bad way?

Linda Clyde [02:47:19] Like, you know, where people go, okay, did you have, like, weird feelings for him or anything like that? Sexual or anything? No, absolutely not. No. No. And he's like, my dad's age. You know, they're within months of each other in age. And so it was always very much like a father figure for me. And I think that it was a. I think it was similar for him that over the course of our relationship, he. He would try to kind of label what our relationship was, and neither one of us could Ever label it as, like, I don't know, like a father, daughter type thing or. I always just kind of called it a friendship because it was a friendship for me. I don't know what it was for him. I think it was. It got a little weirder for him because he started putting me on a pedestal. And I'll get into that a little bit and making me feel, like, super special. And that was weird.

John Dehlin [02:48:02] Called love bombing.

Linda Clyde [02:48:03] It was weird, you know, and it made me uncomfortable, but. And so I was always making sure that I was super clear with my husband, talk to my husband about everything that we talked about, you know, because that made me feel at peace about the relationship with this bishop. It's just that I was being clear that I was talking to somebody else about it. You know, everything that we were talking about.

Guest [02:48:22] When you say talking, are you, like, on the phone? Are you into the bishop's office?

Linda Clyde [02:48:25] These are, like, lots of emails.

Guest [02:48:27] Okay.

Linda Clyde [02:48:27] Lots of emails. Occasionally in the bishop's office. We didn't really have a lot of phone conversations. So early on, it was just a lot of emails. And throughout our whole relationship, really, it was a lot of email because we did end up working together.

John Dehlin [02:48:39] So I just have to say a couple quick things.

Linda Clyde [02:48:42] Okay. Sorry. We're bringing up everything.

John Dehlin [02:48:44] This is so good. This is so important. I mean, we just did an episode, the Shakespeare episode, where we talk about when an adult woman is alone with an adult married man behind closed doors or in emails for a long period of time, a couple things happen. One is you're developing emotional intimacy.

Linda Clyde [02:49:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:04] With someone that isn't your husband.

Linda Clyde [02:49:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:06] So that's one thing that doesn't necessarily have to be bad. We can have friendships.

Linda Clyde [02:49:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:10] But if you combine the emotional intimacy that you're developing with the power differential, which is. He is your authority. He is in a position of priesthood power. He's God's spokesman for you.

Linda Clyde [02:49:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:24] That is a power differential that. That can be abused and it can go into the sexual path, which it did. You know, it does with so many. Sometimes you can go to an abuse path where a bishop or a mission president will tell a woman she's going to be a plural wife or whatever, or abuse them, or fidelity happens. That can happen. But even if it never goes down that awful road, you know, these bishops aren't trained as therapists or as counselors. They don't. They aren't taught boundaries. They aren't taught healthy boundaries. They aren't taught about dual relationships, and they aren't taught the basic ethics of neutrality. So a therapist is taught. It's not your job as a counselor or therapist to promote your values to your clients. It's your job to help them figure out what's best for them. And your values don't matter. You're supposed to be values neutral and just facilitate their healing and growth. That's the only ethical position in that power differential. Because otherwise you're in a position of a father figure, which is not appropriate, honestly, for this man who is representing the church. And there's only one good path that you, Linda, need to follow. And he's representing that path with that power differential. And then he's using that love bombing and that emotion, emotional intimacy that you're developing to then have you follow the path that you're supposed to be leading. And that's, that's unethical and it leads to a lot of harm if it's not the worst case scenario of sexual abuse or infidelity. Something more benign is absolute power and control over your path with that untrained counseling position power differential. And I don't mean to make it sound so awful. No, we have to learn to identify what's going on.

Linda Clyde [02:51:22] Oh, absolutely. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:51:23] Gaining all this influence in your, in your life with good intentions. And that's the thing. It's not like he's this bad man. He's just trying to help you.

Savannah Clyde [02:51:30] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:51:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:32] So is that okay? Tell me if I'm wrong about all that.

Linda Clyde [02:51:35] No, I appreciate that so very much because. Just because for me, like, I, I didn't know. I. You don't know what's appropriate. You don't know what the boundaries are. You don't know, you know, how much to interact, what the appropriateness. Like, there's no guidelines. There's nothing to know, you know, he didn't know. I didn't know, you know, so we're just having a lots, lots of conversation, you know, and it was filling, it was filling a void for me. And it was filling a void for him, like coming to find out, like he had mommy issues. His mom had Ms. Within his entire growing up. She wasn't present, you know, so he's putting me on this strange pedestal, you know, as being like, you know, kind of special, divine, having abilities and things like that. And I'm going. And that was always weird to me, you know, anytime he kind of pushed that on me, I was like, that doesn't feel right, you know. It also feel good a little bit there at moments. I think it felt good, but I think I Had a good enough upbringing to know, you know, I had some boundaries. You know, I think way more than he did as far as how much communication and whatnot. Not early on, but my boundaries grew a lot stronger as our relationship went on.

John Dehlin [02:52:47] I'm just saying it's God. A bishop represents God to a ward member. And here, God's mouthpiece, the bishop is telling you how amazing you are. That's gotta be validating.

Linda Clyde [02:52:56] Yeah, yeah, it was validating, especially when

John Dehlin [02:52:58] you come from a background and I needed it. Of always feeling shame and unworthiness. Now the highest leader for you in your congress congregation is telling you how amazing you are.

Linda Clyde [02:53:08] Yeah. So it was very validating for me. It was. I absolutely was. And he, in order to kind of pull me back in, he says, I want to give you a calling, you know, And I'm like, okay. You know, I hadn't been to church in six months and I'm like, okay, maybe I can do this. And this is after having a one on one interview with him. And he said, you know, I want you to teach Relief Society. And I went, are you kidding me? You know, he says, just. So this is just the women's group. There's an hour that's one of the three hour block, which was then, is two hours now. They're getting a little more progressive. But yeah, so I would teach one one week of the month, the women

John Dehlin [02:53:51] in church on Sunday. In church on Sunday, all the adult women.

Linda Clyde [02:53:54] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:55] It's kind of an honor, right?

Linda Clyde [02:53:56] Yeah. And it would be. It would be from the conference talk, you know, it would be that one particular talk that they would choose. And I said, what if I run into something that I can't teach, that I can't feel good about? And he's like, we're going to cater this calling to you, not you to the calling. And I went, okay, all right, I'm in. I can do that if there's something. Because that was within my comfort zone. If there's something I can't teach, whether it's Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or whatever, I can say, nope, I can't do that one. Give me something else. So that made it doable. So for a while I taught, and some of my lessons, I think, were very unconventional, but the women were also very kind. And they were probably fellowshipping me too, at that point. But it was good for me. So that was really the nutshell of the story that I wanted to talk about while we were in the Mapleton for the first time, because before we moved to Colorado is I'd established this relationship, this close friendship, this father figure relationship with this bishop. And then we moved to Colorado and it was fine. And we really kind of lost touch during those three years that we were in Colorado. During those three years that I was gone. He ended up getting a job with the church, becoming the manager of the editing department up there.

Linda's Work as a Copywriter for the Church

John Dehlin [02:55:12] Which means what?

Linda Clyde [02:55:13] So he just managed all of the editors. And the church actually has a of lot, lot of editors. Very, very few writers. Lots and lots of editors. So he just was over running, you know, helping run them, run their schedules, helping editing what their projects.

John Dehlin [02:55:27] People don't know what that means.

Guest [02:55:29] Okay.

Linda Clyde [02:55:29] So the church puts out a lot of. A lot of writing, you know, in all kinds of areas. Magazines, digital, lots and lots of digital nowadays. I used to be the magazines a lot, but the magazines aren't focused. Focused on nearly as much now.

John Dehlin [02:55:45] Websites, websites, blog posts, articles.

Linda Clyde [02:55:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's lots of different departments. There's also a huge translation department where everything that's written, many things that are deemed important enough are translated into multiple languages. Huge translation department. So, yeah, so he was over all of the editors. And really their editing was just editing like grammar, punctuation. They weren't correlation. This is actual editors that could get a job. Any magazine, any, any place, you know, that's putting out digital content, being editors. So that was his job. So he was over the managers or managing over the editors while I was in Colorado. I didn't know that he'd gotten that job. I didn't know where he was working. We did kind of lose touch during that time. Then about six months before we were thinking about moving back. I did hear from him and he said, hey, are you interested in just trying to write some articles for the church? And I was like, yeah, yeah. You know, because I was just. I was just a lowly hairstylist at this point. And I was, I was aspiring, I was growing. And I'd expressed to him how much I wanted to be a writer. And at the time I was really wanting to be a novelist. I'm like, I just want to write books. I want to be a novelist. Very creative person.

Savannah Clyde [02:56:56] So.

Linda Clyde [02:56:57] So I said yes. And so he's like, okay. He's like, we have some articles or some talks by Boyd K. Packer that we want to kind of highlight. So it was all about kind of boosting PR for Boyd K. Packer was the first things that I wrote about. So I'd go through his, his conference talk or whatever. They were Wanting to meet me, to go over. And I would just soften everything, you know, soften the language, soften the message,

John Dehlin [02:57:25] and make it Tumblr, an inside article.

Linda Clyde [02:57:26] Tumblr I would be writing, like, it would be like a conference talk, like a talk that he'd given in general conference that would be given to me and I would keep the message from it, but just kind of soften the language. And for the platform of like Tumblr, like in, like social media or, you know, just, I would rewrite an article based on what he had taught.

John Dehlin [02:57:50] So let me. Tell me if I have this right, and I want you to correct me, because you lived it. So. So the church has a website, which is its face to the world and to the membership, which is going to be releasing articles regularly. And then the church has these monthly magazines. Traditionally it was called the Ensign.

Linda Clyde [02:58:09] Right.

John Dehlin [02:58:10] And then that's for the US English speaking version. And there was the church's monthly magazine to the membership. Yeah, that's to the adults. And then there's the New Era, which is a magazine, monthly magazine to the youth. And then there's the Children's Friend, which is a magazine to the children.

Linda Clyde [02:58:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:58:27] And then there's the Liahona, which historically was a version of the Ensign, but globally. And these articles primarily are for believing members to help an ongoing education indoctrination as to what the brethren are saying, what the top leaders are saying, what they want the members to know, what the monthly message is needs to be in the home teaching lesson or in the visiting teaching lesson when those home teachers come to teach the families. And then it's also like, as the church enters into the social media realm, how the teachings of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the twelve Apostles gets communicated not just to the membership, but to the world. So this is all education indoctrination to the members in the world?

Savannah Clyde [02:59:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:59:16] And then sometimes, like a talk by Elder Packer would be pretty harsh or even condemning to LGBT people or to women or whatever.

Guest [02:59:24] Right.

John Dehlin [02:59:24] Okay, now, okay. So your role then is.

Linda Clyde [02:59:28] Yeah, so my role with these first articles, and it wasn't like overtly said, you know, this is Boyd K. Packer. We want you to boost his pr. We want you to make him sound nice. You know, it was. It was really just an article that you. He had. He had, you know, or a talk he had given that was given to me saying, let's just write another more conversational piece based on this message. So it really wasn't given to me like, you know, let's fix. Let's fix this or make it better or, you know, or give boost his pr. It wasn't handed to me in that way, so it was just to repackage it. Repackage it. Make it more conversational. Okay, so. And that's often what I did.