Introducing Jonas and the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, Dr. John Dehlin. It is July 20, 2022 and I am super excited for today's episode. Today we are doing an episode that will be featuring Nemo the Mormon, my dear friend and colleague who sort of runs the international correspondent deck desk for Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. Joining us from the UK during a heat, heat wave. Today we are going to be interviewing someone who I have been in touch with for a number of years.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] He goes by Jonas Utica. That's how I pronounce it. He would probably pronounce it slightly differently. He is a really amazing artist out of the, out of Germany. His actually his Instagram channel. His Instagram channel. Just one second. I had it here ready and now it's, it's gone.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] His Instagram channel. There we go. It shows some of the amazing art that he does. He, he kind of does fantasy art. He goes by JoJo's art. J O J O E S A R T and this episode is, is the next in a series that we're doing, trying to cover Mormon stories from all over the globe. We've done that in the past. That's kind of part of the history of Mormon stories and we want to keep doing it. And so one of the things we've asked Nemo the Mormon to do is, is to identify really great interviewees that live either in Europe or Asia or Africa or the Middle east or other cool places.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] And when that happens, Nemo's even willing to co host or even solo host. And so if any of you live outside of kind of the North, Central, South America time zones and want to be interviewed, want to have your country represented or just your experience represented, you can email me@mormonstoriesgmail.com or you can email Nemo. He'll give you his email email in a second and we will consider you all for an interview. In the past, I believe we've done one or two interviews from Mormons or former Mormons out of Germany. But that is going to be the focus today. We're going to hear a Mormon story out of Germany again with a really talented artist and a great human.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] So without any further ado, first of all, Nemo, Nemo the Mormon, host of the NEMO the Mormon YouTube channel. Welcome back to Mormon Stories. Thanks for your support as co host today.

Nemo [00:02:56] Thank you, John. It's a pleasure to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] How are you guys surviving the heat wave in the UK?

Nemo [00:03:03] Yeah, it's tough it's very tough. 40 degrees is not something that my little Britishness is designed to deal with.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Sounds super cold to me. Like, 40 is kind of winter.

Nemo [00:03:14] Sorry. It hit over 100 Fahrenheit.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] I'm joking.

Jonas Jödicke [00:03:18] Just.

Nemo [00:03:18] Just for the American viewers. But we're in Europe today, so we're dealing purely in metric.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] That's right.

Nemo [00:03:23] That is how it works.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] I love it. Okay, well, Nemo, why don't. And of course, Jonas, welcome to Mormon Stories. You and I have been in contact for many, many years, but I'm happy that we finally got you on.

Jonas Jödicke [00:03:35] Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Yeah. All right, Nemo, I'm gonna let you take over as main post. I'll be. I'll be riding shotgun. And you can. You can tell us what it was that made you want to, you know, bring Jonas on, talk about anything. You're doing. Okay. Or Mormon stories in the UK and let's get the. Get on with this interview.

Nemo [00:03:57] Let's do it. Well, Eston's Hallo Al by Mormon Stories podcast, Jonas Bitter.

Jonas Jödicke [00:04:09] Yes. Hello. I'm very excited to be on. I'm Jonas. Ja. John introduced me quite well. I'm an artist from Berlin, Germany, and I actually met Nemo just two, three weeks ago here in Berlin, which was pretty fun. I don't know if you want to.

Nemo [00:04:27] Oh, yes, thank you. Thank you very much for that. I want to tell everyone about Thrive and the amazing thing that Thrive is, and just how amazing Thrive Berlin was. Jonas was there with us. It was really enjoyable to be together, and it was a very chilled out event. And the plan is to do more of these around Europe. So next month is Poland. So in Krakow, we are meeting up and getting together. Thriving. And I'll be there. I'll be there to hear your stories, to hear your experiences, and to facilitate those sorts of conversations. Very much the sorts of conversations we have here live on Mormon stories, but you can have them with each other. You can talk through what your time was like in the church. Jonas, how did you find the Thrive event?

Jonas Jödicke [00:05:19] Actually, a friend of mine sent it to me who's also very active in the ex Mormon community, and he, I think, is also in contact with John and with you. And he sent it to me through Facebook and he was like, hey, you should really go there. I was like, yep, sure. Because I also listened to your channel a lot, Nemo. And I was like, would be really cool to meet him in person.

Nemo [00:05:41] Yeah. I just want to point out this comment here. Someone said, I love that Jonas answers in English. That is because his English is infinitely better than my German. And this interview, very kindly is being done in English by Jonas. So remember, this is being done in his second language. But I would love to, in future, if there are people that aren't confident with English but still want to tell their story, I'd love to explore the idea of working with a translator or facilitating that in some way. So reach out and get in touch with. Okay, Jonas, are you ready?

John Dehlin [00:06:11] Nemo?

Nemo [00:06:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Those who want to stay abreast of what's going on with Thrive, there are still occasionally Thrive events happening. You can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and I think that's where they would register for Thrive Poland. Is that right?

Nemo [00:06:25] Yeah. Thrivebeyondreligion.org thrive Poland.

Jonas Jödicke [00:06:29] Okay.

Nemo [00:06:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] All right. Just wanted to make sure we got.

Nemo [00:06:32] There is. Thank you very much. Jonas, are you ready to tell your Mormon story?

Growing Up Mormon in Berlin, Germany

Jonas Jödicke [00:06:36] Yes, I am.

Nemo [00:06:37] You are ready. Okay. So let's start by asking the important question, where did your Mormon story begin Take us from the beginning.

Jonas Jödicke [00:06:47] So I was born into the church here in Germany. The church is pretty small. I mean, compared to the US I think we have around 40k. Like 40,000 members in Germany. And here in Berlin, we have, I think, around eight wards in the stake in Berlin. I was born into a quite active family in the church. So we all went to church together every Sunday. I have five siblings in total, three sisters and two brothers. And we did all the moment stuff. We went to church every Sunday. We had family home evening. We tried to study in the scriptures together, sometimes in the morning before we went to school. And yeah, we did everything that. That a good Mormon family is supposed to do. Yeah.

Nemo [00:07:35] Okay. And what was it like how many

John Dehlin [00:07:38] generations your family goes back? Jonah Jonas? Just. Just curious.

Jonas Jödicke [00:07:44] Yeah. So my. My mom was the first one in her family to join the church. I think she joined in her early 20s. She was approached by the missionaries while she was out in the park somewhere. And my dad, I think, is second generation, so his mom was in the church. She left at some point, but she. She kind of brought the family into the church and then carried it on to her children.

Nemo [00:08:10] And so is that very common in Germany or are there many multi generational families?

Jonas Jödicke [00:08:17] There are quite a few multi generational families, Especially also in our ward, we had many people who. Who have been in the church for a few generations, but also lots of people who just joined the church themselves

Nemo [00:08:29] because you know how old the church is in Germany. Roughly speaking,

Jonas Jödicke [00:08:34] I'M not quite sure about it. I know that during the Second World War the church was already established because I think that. Which is not a nice piece of Mormon history, but I think the regime in Germany actually had quite close context to the Mormon Church in Germany as well, because they saw many similarities between the Mormon Church and the way that the Hitler and everything was kind of administered and stuff.

Nemo [00:09:00] So, yeah, there is a great book called Moroni and the Swastika if you want to read more about the history of the LDS Church in Nazi Germany. I feel like I'm not sure how this bodes that already we've got onto Nazi Germany in this interview and we're only 10 minutes in, but we'll steer clear of that and we'll head back to the church. So you said there's not many kind of. There's a few multi generational families, but I guess they're not as old as in Utah. Are the people still? I mean, what's your experience of the church in Utah? First, what's your experience of Utah Mormons as a journey?

Jonas Jödicke [00:09:36] I actually visited Utah together with my oldest sister, I think around five or six years ago. And we both had a very interesting experience because we felt like the church there is maybe in some ways a bit more superficial. I mean that's, that's a stereotype or over generalization. But I think in general, because so many people are born into it and it's so intertwined with the culture in Utah, I think that many people just take it as a tradition and just go to church because they were born into bit and it's like everybody does it basically. And I think if people join the church or stay active in the church in Germany, because we have only like I said, 40,000 members and active ones, maybe, I don't know how many, but far less than that.

Jonas Jödicke [00:10:25] Like, to stay active in this church that also doesn't have the best reputation in Germany, I think is quite something. So I think that people here usually

Nemo [00:10:33] really

Jonas Jödicke [00:10:36] stand behind it and really like live it because they want to. So I think that's maybe a difference that we kind of saw.

Nemo [00:10:43] So do you feel like the members in Germany then are on the whole not more devout, but maybe because it's because they're a minority, they feel the need to, you know, be more. Yeah. Be more devout, I guess.

Jonas Jödicke [00:11:00] I think so. I mean, I really don't want to like generalize it, but I think in general you could kind of say that

John Dehlin [00:11:09] we're slackers over here. Nemo.

Nemo [00:11:11] Well, I think it's the same in a lot of small countries, right. Or countries where the church is small. You have the same people over and over again fulfilling the callings because there's not many people to do the jobs. So everyone that's there has a job to do. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure we'll get some of your callings later on. So these small wards, then you growing up as kind of a primary child, tell me what that was, was like in these kind of early years of you in the church.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] Yeah,

Jonas Jödicke [00:11:41] I actually really enjoyed going to church as a child. I remember also, like being quite, quite a devout child, you could say. Like, I always tried to be really good and keep all the commandments and I prayed by myself every evening and every morning, even when I went to school sometimes. I remember I always went with my bike, even during winter times and during my riding the bike, I was praying the whole ride, basically, and just kind of communicating with God. And I was really, really into the church. I really loved it. I also loved the feeling of being part of the true religion. Not in a, not in a sense that I felt like I was above other people or like, oh, I have the truth, you don't.

Jonas Jödicke [00:12:27] But more like I was just really excited that I was born into this thing where I felt like we had this connection to God and we had prophets on the earth and all these commandments that make our lives better in a way. So I really enjoyed going to church as a child and also had many friends there. I felt very comfortable. We had a really cool bishop who always loved to do lots of stuff with the young people in the church. So it was a pretty good experience.

Nemo [00:12:56] Would you say the majority of your social group kind of as a primary child and that sort of age were in the church?

Jonas Jödicke [00:13:05] I wouldn't say so. I think most of my friends when I was younger, I mean, I had friends in church that I also met with quite frequently, but I also had many friends at my school that weren't members and there were no issues at all at that time. Like, I, I didn't even think about them as any. I, I, I didn't really like categorize people as members and non members. For me it was just like my friends either at school or at church, it didn't really matter to me.

Nemo [00:13:33] Okay. Yeah. And so how, how many other primary children were there in your ward? Was it pretty typical?

Jonas Jödicke [00:13:43] I don't really know. Like, I don't know what you would deem as typical, but I think we had maybe around 5 to 10.

Nemo [00:13:52] Was that typical for Germany?

Jonas Jödicke [00:13:54] I guess I, I would say so, yeah. I think especially here in Berlin, most of the wards, I think, would have that kind of a primary attendance.

Nemo [00:14:04] By the sounds of Berlin's kind of a strong point in the LDS Church in Germany.

Jonas Jödicke [00:14:08] Yeah, pretty much.

How Germans Perceive the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:14:10] I have a question, Jonas. So I'm. This is, this is a kind of a macro question that I think Nemo, along the lines of what Nemo's kind of asking you. I'm curious about how, number one, the broader German culture kind of thinks of Mormons in the Mormon Church. Maybe I'll ask that question before I ask a follow up question. Is, are they even known? If you stop the average German in the street, would they even know what a Mormon is? And if so, would it be in any way accurate? Or would it be like in the United States where people confuse us with Amish or Jehovah's Witnesses? So let me ask that first question. What's. What's the average perception of Mormons in Germany?

Jonas Jödicke [00:14:57] I would say that it's kind of 50. 50. I would say, like half of the people don't really know about Mormons. So if I tell them, hey, I'm a Mormon, they would be like, okay, what is that? Like, I've never heard about it. And the other half would probably have the same kind of reaction that you just described. Like, oh, I heard about the Mormons, or maybe they saw some missionaries on the streets and then they'd be like, oh, kind of like the Jehovah's Witnesses or Amish people. They would also usually ask about polygamy because that's one thing that most people know about. Or Joseph Smith and the golden plates. Yeah, but I think pretty much the church is perceived by the people that know about it as a cult.

Nemo [00:15:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Okay, and what does that mean in. Because the word cult sometimes has different meanings in different countries. What would the word cult mean in. To a German? On average?

Jonas Jödicke [00:15:48] I would say a pretty closed off community that has high demands on its members and also high control that usually has like a charismatic leader of some type and that kind of brainwashes people in a way. And of course, whenever my friends confronted me with that picture or image about the church, I'd be like, no, no, we're not a cult. Not at all. Like, people just get it wrong and we're totally just a normal church because I think we are also registered as a normal church in Germany. So we are not like on some kind of lists where they say, oh, these are dangerous cults. Or whatever, but still, people kind of perceive us that way.

Nemo [00:16:31] Yeah, the church has a bit of. No, that's all I was gonna say. Carry on.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] And, like, if there's a. Is there a hierarchy of, like. I mean, of course there's, like, small offshoots, but in terms of, like, mainstream cults, the ones that I think of are, like, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, and then some people put us in there. Are we, like, better than Scientologists, better than Jehovah's Witnesses, like, on the same par. A totally different category, less benign? Is there even a hierarchy of, like, of. Of mainstream cults and how they're viewed? Or is that even. Is that too hard to ask?

Jonas Jödicke [00:17:11] I would say we're probably pretty much on the same level as Jehovah's Witnesses. I think maybe people perceive us as badly as Scientology, but kind of like Jehovah's Witnesses, I would say. Okay, it's the same here, because we also have people going around as missionaries and stuff like that. So I think they kind of put us in the same box.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] Got it. Okay, then the second part to that question is, so. So. And this is a sensitive thing, and it does tie back to the discussion about World War II. Like, obviously, World War II, you know, when it's over. And I'm assuming you live. Okay, so you live in what would have been. You live in Berlin, is that right?

Jonas Jödicke [00:17:56] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] And would. Do you live in what would have been characterized as West Berlin before the Wall came down?

Jonas Jödicke [00:18:05] Well, right now I live in East Berlin, but I grew up in, I think, West Berlin.

Nemo [00:18:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] Okay. And the Berlin Wall came down around. What year was it? Was it 89, 90. Okay. That's when I was on my mission. So. So obviously, when. When the World War II ends, I. I have no idea how west versus East Germany would have felt about the United States, but for me, it's always weird that we export our religion to other countries.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] And I'm always. I'm always just struck, like, I can't imagine joining a German church or a Spanish church or a. Like, for me, it would be weird enough to join another church. It would be super weird to have it be from another country. So I'm curious how maybe your family and maybe how other Mormon. German. Let's say German Latter Day Saints think about the fact that they're joining a church that's based in the United States, especially given all the history and, like, how is that processed, you know, especially given the. The history and sometimes the history of conflict between the United States and Germany, or is that even thought about? Does that make sense, that question?

Jonas Jödicke [00:19:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [00:19:32] No, totally. I think sometimes we had conversations about American culture kind of swapping over from the United States into Germany. Like, sometimes people would say, oh, that's such an American thing. For example, if we. When we had fsy or eve y formerly, like, these. These youth camps, basically, where people would go and meet up together as young adults, people would say, oh, that's so American. Like, that's something that in Germany we wouldn't really do. And some of the stuff that they would teach us there and do there, like, some of the rules that they would implement, like having a certain haircut. I'm also going to go into that with a personal story later.

Jonas Jödicke [00:20:14] But, yeah, I think, like, sometimes people kind of perceived the church as an American church that had American culture really, like, incorporated into it, but we wouldn't really think about it that much. I just saw it also a bit on my mission. I went to Switzerland and also, like, some parts of Germany, and people, once they saw us, they would be like, oh, you're the American church. They would also assume that we were Americans. But then when we talked German to them, they were like, oh, okay, Mormons that talk German. That's quite interesting. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] Yeah. Are you saying that in your mind you aren't thinking a lot about the fact that this church is based in the United States? It's more of a spiritual, religious thing, and it's not really tied to nationality as you lived as a Mormon.

Jonas Jödicke [00:21:03] No, no. I. I wouldn't really have thought about the church as an American church because I really thought it was universal because I was taught it was the true church and the restored gospel. So I was like, it. It's for everyone and every language and tongue and nationality. But, yeah, like, the American culture thing was more of a concern sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] Got it.

Nemo [00:21:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] Go ahead, Nemo. Sorry. Thanks.

Nemo [00:21:25] I was gonna say there's a. There's a very different culture in Germany to America. I feel like British and German culture is a bit more similar. We're more reserved. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, Jonas, but generally more reserved. Germans in particular. There's the stereotype, but I think it's true that there is an inclination to follow the rules and for things to be done properly. You know, there's no cars on the road, but you stand and wait for the green light because just that's what you do.

Jonas Jödicke [00:21:51] Yeah.

Nemo [00:21:51] And then you cross the road. That sort of stuff. You wait for ampleman so there's. There's this difference in the way that Americans fundamentally kind of tend to interact. So these things like linger longer and munch and mingle and these dragons. Traditions that come from the American side of things. How were they done in the German church? How were these sort of social activities done? Were they done differently? Were they done the same? Were people always comfortable with it, that sort of stuff.

Jonas Jödicke [00:22:24] Could you give some examples on, like, what kind of cultural activities?

Nemo [00:22:28] So things like the. The muncher mingles, like where you wait after church and people bring food. Things. Things like the idea of doing like ward barbecues or picnics, that sort of stuff. You know, things that you can very clearly see in your mind are happening in Utah, but wouldn't maybe necessarily Germans wouldn't do.

Jonas Jödicke [00:22:49] Yeah, we did all these things. We call it potluck or which is very German efficiency, like Geminder Essen. So just like a warts Eating. Eating. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think. I mean, I can't really compare it because I've never. I mean, I've been to the. The States, like I said, but only for two weeks. So I don't really have like, a complete insight into how church life would function there, but I would assume that lots of these activities have a strong influence from how they are done in. In Utah. So we, like, after church, sometimes we just get together, everybody would bring some food, we would have, like a big buffet, and then everybody can just get something to eat and mingle and talk and. Yeah, okay.

Nemo [00:23:37] So it seems as though, apart from efy, generally a lot of the stuff you were kind of like, okay, well, this is a bit different. Other churches don't do this, but, you know, it's cool and it fits in, broadly speaking, with the culture. There's nothing that sort of alien going on.

Jonas Jödicke [00:23:51] Yeah, I would say so. And I also think that probably in every country where you have the church, I think the members there always kind of adapted a bit to their own customs and the way that they want to do things. So I think there are influences, but then in the end it's always like there's a different kind of flavor maybe in certain countries as to how things are done.

Jonas Discovers His Passion for Art

Nemo [00:24:12] Excellent. Okay, I want to ask you. People are about to discover or. Or through this podcast, they'll discover you are a brilliant artist. You know, you draw some wonderful things. But I want to assume that that started pretty early in your life. So tell me about kind of how you started with your art and how that began.

Jonas Jödicke [00:24:33] Yeah, so I grew up in a quite creative family. My parents, especially my mom, always really encouraged creativity. She would always have, like, boxes of pencils laying around all over the house. And me and my siblings, we would always draw together, especially me and my oldest sister.

Jonas Jödicke [00:24:54] We sometimes would even skip, like, family meetings where we got together with relatives and stuff just to be able to draw in our rooms by ourselves. We even painted her walls. We drew, like huge dragons all over her walls and stuff. So I started pretty early, I think I can't really remember a time before basically, where I didn't do any kind of creative thing like drawing and painting and stuff. And I especially loved just drawing lots of monsters and dragons and dinosaurs with a pencil. I would always take it with me at school and everywhere I went.

Jonas Jödicke [00:25:31] So it was basically just always a part of my life that I loved. And there was also actually a woman at church who we were very close to as a family, and she would take care of us children sometimes during sacrament meeting, because like I said, we are six children in total. And sometimes she would just sit with us and then she would draw with us. And she was really good at it. And then we could tell her stuff to draw. We'd be like, hey, can you draw me a monster that's coming out of a toilet?

Jonas Jödicke [00:26:02] And she would. She would do it really well. And I was super fascinated by it. And I was like, I really want to become like that. Like, I want to be able to just draw whatever comes to my mind. And I think that's really where my. My passion kind of came from as well.

Nemo [00:26:15] And you said this woman would kind of come along and look after you and your siblings. I am assuming with Germany being like Britain and having very small wards and this sort of thing, your dad was always in a position of doing something so away up on the stand, Is that right?

Jonas Jödicke [00:26:30] Yeah, pretty much. He was also in the bishopric for time. He was even the. The bishop, I think. And then later on he was also in the Stake Presidency and yeah, basically always, almost always sitting on. On the stand and stuff like that.

Nemo [00:26:45] Okay. And so you were there just drawing away while your dad is, you know, fulfilling all his church callings and doing, you know, the right thing in. In the Mormon view. How did you feel about your dad and his callings, you know, being the bishop's son? How was that?

Jonas Jödicke [00:27:03] I think he was the bishop when I was really small, so I don't really remember that much about that time. But when he was in the Stake Presidency later on or had other types of callings, I Mean, sometimes it was sad that he was gone on a Sunday if he had an assignment in another ward, for example.

Jonas Jödicke [00:27:22] But I don't know, I just kind of saw it as well, he has this. This calling. He has this responsibility to be there for other people. And it's fine because we have him during the week. And, like, it wasn't that big of a problem, but now that I think about it, it's kind of. I could see that sometimes I think my mom was handling all the stress of taking care of the kids in church. And with six children, it's. It's quite a task.

Jonas Jödicke [00:27:48] So I think now in hindsight, I'm like, oh, actually would have been nice if he could have been there all the time to kind of support her.

Nemo [00:27:56] Yeah, I relate. I'm one of six also, so it is. It is quite crazy at times. And whereabouts do you fall in the order?

Jonas Jödicke [00:28:04] I'm the third, so I have two older sisters and then one younger sister and two younger brothers.

Nemo [00:28:09] Yeah. Okay, so you were, I assume then you would become slightly more responsible for some of your younger siblings as time goes on.

Jonas Jödicke [00:28:17] Yeah, yeah. Especially later on. Not so much in my childhood.

Nemo [00:28:21] Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [00:28:21] But I think also we were kind of quite chill kids. Mostly we were just sitting there in church, mostly just kind of doing stuff by ourselves, like drawing the person who was giving a talk, for example, drawing funny pictures of each other and stuff like that. So. Yeah.

Nemo [00:28:37] Okay. So everyone wanted the Utica family to be on their row because the kids were all just quiet drawing stuff, not, like, throwing things at each other, like me and my brothers. Okay, cool. So is there anything else about your childhood? Do you feel really sort of stands out to you is quite impactful in your story? How did you feel about your childhood or about yourself in your childhood?

Jonas Jödicke [00:28:59] Mm, I felt pretty good about myself. I. I think I had lots of self confidence as a child. I. I was pretty good at school as well because I. I don't know, I always had this thing where I really wanted to excel at everything that I do. I don't know where it comes from because it. It's not like my parents were kind of pushing us to excel at things, but I just always had this desire myself to be really good. I had, like, a group of friends at school. We would call ourselves the Nerd Club, basically, so we were proud of that title and we were always trying to get.

Jonas Jödicke [00:29:35] To get the best grades and kind of just like really put the work in. But yeah, I think some of the perfectionism and OCD esque Tendencies also kind of started during my childhood, for example, also in the church context. I remember that I always had these

John Dehlin [00:29:54] really,

Jonas Jödicke [00:29:56] I don't know, like when I was eight years old, I would already think about things that maybe as an 8 year old you would really think about. Like, I don't know, I was always super afraid of people close to me dying. And then the concept of time was always really weird to me. I always thought like, time is so weird, like everything just kind of ends at some point.

Jonas Jödicke [00:30:16] And, and because I had these fears, sometimes I kind of developed this tendency to, for example, in my prayers, my personal prayer time, I would always try to pray in a very specific order for certain things. And I always needed to include every single thing because otherwise I felt like if I didn't pray for this thing, for example, for the safety of everyone in my family, if I kind of left someone out, then maybe they would die this day and then it would be my fault. So I think maybe it goes a bit into the religious scrupulosity that I heard you talk about sometimes on the podcast, but I definitely had some of these tendencies in a way.

Nemo [00:30:56] Yeah, I really resonate with that. I had a lot of those experiences of feeling like I need to pray for safety of others and if I don't, it would be my fault. And I had that fear of just things just stopping. So I'm really glad you shared that because I'm sure I'm not the only one who's really resonating with that experience as a child. And it's not the sort of worry that you should be having as a child, really. Existential threat and worry isn't something that really should be on an eight year old shoulders. John, do you have any questions about Jonas's childhood?

John Dehlin [00:31:26] No, I. I love it. And it's, it's just we have so many interviewees that have dealt with scrupulosity. So I, I appreciate you bringing that up, Jonas. And, and we'll include in the show notes maybe some episodes about scrupulosity for anyone who thinks they might have experienced or are, are experiencing a religious obsessive compulsive disorder. Intrusive thoughts. It's a really important topic. I'm curious, Jonas, if.

Mormon Family Dynamics and German Culture

John Dehlin [00:31:53] If you felt if there would be any way to compare your family dynamic when you were a child, a Mormon child, with the average German family. In other words, did you spend more or less time together than other kids, maybe that you went to school with? Did you. Was your family happier or less happy? Was it more stable or Less. Is there any way to compare how Mormonism positively or negatively impacted your childhood relative to your peers of kind of the same socioeconomic class, if that makes sense.

Jonas Jödicke [00:32:29] I would say in general, because of the focus on the family, because that's such a big value in the church, we spent maybe more time together than other average German families. Like, we were very close, especially also us as siblings.

Jonas Jödicke [00:32:47] Also my mom, I think did a great job at really trying to be there as a mom. She was also a stay at home mom. She wasn't working, didn't have any job. So I think that was a big thing. That was like a huge positive impact on us. But then a bit later on, kind of when the teenage years started, especially for my older sister, she started to kind of rebel a little bit, which is normal during the teenage years. But because of the church context, I think that my parents really saw that as her kind of trying to break out of this church structure in a way.

Jonas Jödicke [00:33:26] And I think that put a lot of strain on our family because she was from that point on viewed a little bit as the black sheep of the family because she started to experiment a little bit with going to parties and drinking alcohol and doing all these things that are quite normal for this time in someone's life. But because of the church context and the commandments and everything, it was viewed as, oh, wow, she's the rebellious one. She also dyed her hair pink, which was a big problem. And all these kind of things there. I could see like the kind of toxic influence of the church.

Nemo [00:33:59] And did you feel at the time like you were looking at your sister? Because we're just going to start to move into your teenage years now. Do you feel like you looked at your sister and went, well, I'm not going to become like that. And did that create some separation between you and your sister?

Jonas Jödicke [00:34:15] So the thing is, like I mentioned before, because I really, really loved spending time with my biggest sister. We were always doing art together. We were like the art siblings. Early on. I still really loved her and it really didn't change my view on her as a valuable person and my sister, but it did kind of make me feel like I. I don't really have to try out these things because I don't want to have all this trouble in my life. Like I saw her trying out alcohol and smoking and all these things, and then having all the trouble at home with my parents and also at church and always having to repent and she was able to take the sacrament and all these things.

Jonas Jödicke [00:34:56] And I was like, okay, like I'm going to stay away from that especially also because I was already this kid who kind of wanted to be really good at everything and stuff. So I think I kind of took that as a negative example in that sense and was like, no, no, I'm, I'm gonna have like a really clean teenager experience. I even told myself, like, I don't want to get into puberty. I want, I don't want to be like the typical teenager that has all these problems. I just want to be like someone who's very, I don't like on the right path all the time.

Nemo [00:35:31] Well, I mean, we're told to be likened to a little child, right. And you know, you don't, you almost don't want to move out of that infantilized state of an 8 year old who's just been baptized. And it's like, right, it's all just good and bad from here on. It's all just don't do the bad stuff, do the good stuff, do what I'm told, job done, sorted, the very clear sort of path. But obviously you then became a teenager and things got complicated. Talk me through what it was like hitting that puberty that you didn't want to.

Jonas Jödicke [00:36:00] Yeah, yeah, maybe one last thing because that's gonna lead into that. Please. Already quite early on in my childhood, I kind of realized that I was a little bit different than most boys my age because I had many interests that are kind of deemed to be a bit more feminine in society. Like, I was interested in music and art, obviously, and also like dressing up in costumes and dancing and all these kind of things and not so much into playing soccer or sports in general and things like that.

Jonas Jödicke [00:36:37] But as a child, I didn't really mind that at all. I didn't care because I still had lots of friends at school. I was a quite popular kid, I would say, in preschool. But then once I came to high school, that kind of started to change a little bit because suddenly, I mean, there's just the normal pressure of going to high school and trying to fit in with everyone. And then also especially because my classmates kind of started to also go to parties and drink alcohol. And I don't like have experiences with girls or boys or whatever.

Jonas Jödicke [00:37:12] I kind of felt like I didn't really fit in anymore with these people in my class. I kind of felt like we are so different because I would tell them about how I went to church on Sunday while they were on three parties.

Jonas Jödicke [00:37:28] That kind of made me feel like I was like, I Don't like someone who just doesn't fit in. Like I just felt weird about myself and I started to become really self conscious. And then at that time also like more family problems started to arise because my parents started to argue all the time.

Jonas Jödicke [00:37:50] It's a very, very complicated story, but basically my parents both had a very difficult childhood. Lots of trauma in their own like family settings and I think they just projected lots of the stuff that they experienced onto each other. My mom became very, very distrustful of people, especially of men and she would kind of suspect my dad of, of doing really horrible things.

Jonas Jödicke [00:38:12] It's a very, very long story. But yeah, they would just arguing with each other and we just always felt that strong negative energy at home. And yeah, I think that's like, that's the time where I just didn't really have any kind of stability and foundation to feel safe in life. So I started to have lots of anxiety, lots of like depression and just became super self conscious.

Nemo [00:38:39] Okay, I want to talk a little bit about the dissonance that is kind of thematic of this part of your life you're talking about. Just real quick. Is it high school is gymnasium, right? It's. Yeah. So what age is that?

Jonas Jödicke [00:38:54] So it's usually from the age of 12.

Nemo [00:38:56] 12. Okay, cool. So similar to the UK and I don't know when high school starts in the States. Is it, I don't know,

John Dehlin [00:39:08] around 14?

Nemo [00:39:09] Oh, okay. This is a little bit later. Okay. But this seems themed by a couple of forms of dissonance. The first is this idea that as a child, as a young child, the world around you and the world you kind of inhabit is very Mormon friendly. It's like you films, it's Disney, it's children at that age. And that the experiences of a child are all mesh with the Mormon worldview to an extent.

Nemo [00:39:39] The moment you start to hit puberty and become a teenager, all of a sudden your peers. I guess what I'm saying is your peers as a young child in and out of the church aren't doing many things different to you. Those differences will start to increase as you are held back into the sort of.

Nemo [00:39:56] Yeah, you're held back into the sort of Disney Mormonism, into this way of being that your friends are moving out of. And I think there's some dissonance to that. And the second thing I wanted to touch on was this dissonance between your parents and their relationship versus what eternal families are meant to be like. Can you just tell me a little bit about how you experienced either of those kind of bits of dissonance.

Dissonance Around Eternal Families and Identity

Jonas Jödicke [00:40:22] Yeah, yeah, Maybe I'll start with the. The concept of eternal families and eternal marriage, because I think it just became very clear and obvious at some point that my parents just weren't loving each other anymore. I mean, maybe there was some type of underlying love and respect for each other, but in general they were just fighting all the time and it just wasn't working out at all as a couple. And I think in a normal setting, people would just come to the conclusion at some point that it is not working out. So maybe we should just split up and tried to just have like a peaceful ending of this relationship and then take care of the family in a different way.

Jonas Jödicke [00:41:04] But I think because of the concept of eternal marriage and eternal families and we were sealed together in the temple, they really tried to kind of stick it out. And also because they oftentimes went to the bishop of our ward and they always got the council to like stay together, to try harder, to pray more, to go to the temple more, and all these types of things. And I think that, yeah, this, this concept really made them stay in a relationship that just became so toxic that it was very, very detriment. Detrimental to the mental health of all of us, like myself and all my siblings, everyone.

Jonas Jödicke [00:41:43] We were all just, I would say, traumatized during this time because it was not just normal arguments. It was basically like, like I said, my mom was basically accusing my dad of very horrible things and my dad obviously didn't do these things.

Jonas Jödicke [00:42:03] And yeah, it was just a very, very difficult situation. And then we would sometimes feel like we would have to take a side. We'd be like, hey, we actually don't think our dad did these kind of things. But yeah, it was just very, very difficult for us to, to handle that kind of situation.

Nemo [00:42:21] I can imagine. And what, what effect. Go on, John, I see your question.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] I was just wondering how, like, one of the things we always have to be careful about as we're exploring kind of Mormon stories is trying to tease out how much of that has anything to do with Mormonism versus just human challenges and difficulties. Because obviously people get divorced in an out of Mormonism and marriages have trouble in and out of Mormonism. So do you have a sense for whether like the patriarchy in the church exacerbated the gender roles or the perceptions around gender? And I guess certainly the Mormon church's stigma around marriage and the pressures of the community and the expectations of the community would have maybe been a binding force to your parents marriage that Otherwise wouldn't have been there. But I'm just curious how much of this conflict really has anything at all to do with Mormonism versus just human problems, if that makes sense.

Jonas Jödicke [00:43:17] Yeah, well, like I said, I think a huge part of the conflict that my parents had were because of their traumatic childhoods. But then I think that the whole patriarchy and the system that like the way the church is set up and views men versus women also actually played quite a role in my parents relationship. I was talking about it just today with my sister actually, because my dad was very much the patriarch in the family. Like sometimes he would come to the kitchen while everyone was preparing the food after church, for example, and he would just sit down and kind of wait for everyone to bring him the food to his place.

Jonas Jödicke [00:43:56] Or he would be like, hey Jonas, can you get me this plate? Or to my mom like, hey, can you do this? Or whatever. I mean, he was also a great dad in many ways, but then sometimes you really saw these kind of patriarchal kind of things that he did. And also my, my mom was very much dependent on him in, in almost always like she would not be able really to have her own kind of money. I mean she, she got like a pocket money from him every month that she could spend. But otherwise it was very much like she was just taking care of the family, of the kids and was really like in this role of a mother.

Jonas Jödicke [00:44:39] And when they split up later on, it was also very difficult for her to find her own footing in life because she hadn't really learned to take care of herself in many of these areas. My dad was the caretaker of the family and took care of everything that was kind of organizational and stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [00:44:57] So yeah, there were some of these things also in the relationship, but I think, I think for most of their marriage it was working quite well. I think my mom kind of also placed herself in that kind of relationship and I think she was very comfortable in it for a long time. But then once things kind of started to crumble a little bit and break, that's when she started to feel like, why don't I have any rights in this relationship? And why am I always the one just doing stuff for others all the time? And I never have time for myself and I never can take care of my own needs.

Jonas Jödicke [00:45:33] I'm always just there to feed the kids and be there for my husband or like do all these tasks at home, but I don't have any free time for myself. So I think that's when she kind of started to wake up from that sleep and confront my dad also with that, and also the church leaders actually.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Makes sense.

Nemo [00:45:51] Yeah, does. And so how did you. In. In the background of this, with all this going on and you. You seeing all this, how long did this go on for?

Jonas Jödicke [00:46:03] I think in. In total, it was around 10 years.

Nemo [00:46:06] Okay, so what age is roughly?

Jonas Jödicke [00:46:11] I think I was around 4:14 at the time when it started.

Nemo [00:46:15] Okay.

Jonas Jödicke [00:46:15] Because it was around the time when my youngest brother was born. He. He was like, he came quite late compared to everyone else. And when he was born, I think maybe it was because maybe something was triggered inside my mom especially, and like, all the stress of. Of the birth of my brother. I think something just changed from that point on.

Nemo [00:46:38] Yeah. So you're saying there's a big age gap between your youngest brother and the rest?

Jonas Jödicke [00:46:43] Yeah, yeah. Like this, I think 12 years or something. Like there's quite, quite a big gap.

Nemo [00:46:50] Okay, right. And then that went on until you're about 24.

Jonas Jödicke [00:46:56] Yeah.

Nemo [00:46:57] Okay, so all I'm trying to set out for the listeners is that throughout what we're going to discuss next, this is all happening under the. The umbrella of this unfolding situation between your parents.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Yeah.

Nemo [00:47:09] Is that correct?

Jonas Jödicke [00:47:10] Okay, exactly. Yeah. It was basically going on the whole time.

Nemo [00:47:13] Okay, so tell me about teenage Jonas, then. You know, is your. Your interest in art, I assume, is increasing? And you said that you are at school feeling a little bit more isolated now, a little bit more different. Tell me about how those two things kind of meshed, your art and your new social standing.

Jonas Jödicke [00:47:35] Yeah, so like I mentioned, I felt pretty out of place with people in my class. I mean, I had friends, but I never really felt like a real part of the class. I could never really partake in any of the things that the others were doing. And in a way, I felt like, okay with that because I had my friends at church and I felt like I didn't even want to party that much or drink alcohol or try drugs or stuff like that. But then on the other hand, I also felt like I just didn't fit in. And also, especially because, like I said, I had these more feminine interests and wasn't the typical boy.

Jonas Jödicke [00:48:11] I just felt like I was super different from everyone else, so I kind of isolated myself. During my teenage years. I also had very strong social anxiety. I think almost to the point of, like, a social phobia. I would be, like, super nervous when I went into my classroom. I would feel like everybody was watching me and watching how I act and, like, how my Face looks and all these kind of things.

Jonas Jödicke [00:48:35] So that was, like, super difficult. I still tried to be really good at school. I still also had good grades because that was kind of the thing that made me feel like I was someone, if I could still excel at things that I did.

Jonas Jödicke [00:48:49] And the same kind of thing started to happen with my art. I think the isolation and the struggles with mental health almost helped me to really focus on my art because I was just not meeting people that much. So I was at home most of the time after school and just locked myself in my room and painted all day. And when I was 14 years old, I also got a graphic tablet and Photoshop for my computer.

Jonas Jödicke [00:49:20] And from that point on, I started to do more and more digital art and started also uploading it on the Internet. Back then it was on the platform called DeviantArt, which was like the biggest.

Nemo [00:49:32] I remember that.

Jonas Jödicke [00:49:34] And that was a really, really cool time, actually, in that sense, like the artistic side of it, because I started to upload my art, I was doing, like, lots of fantasy work, and more and more people started to resonate with my art and started to follow me. And around that time, I also encouraged my older sister that I had always been doing art with to also start uploading her work to DeviantArt. And so we both kind of started to do that at the same time and grow our audiences. And we're always together drawing and stuff. So there was still the connection with my siblings, fortunately. And, yeah, my art journey kind of began at that point.

Nemo [00:50:13] And so it kind of almost sounds like it became a bit of your refuge through all this.

Jonas Jödicke [00:50:19] Yeah, it was kind of like my safe space. Like, it was where I could just go to feel safe and express my emotions and also have something that I was proud of and could present to the world.

Nemo [00:50:31] Amazing. That is amazing. Someone, people in the comments are asking how they find your art. You go to the description of this video and you check out his Instagram, because it's awesome. I want to go on to the topic within your youth of this. You know, you said you didn't want to really go through puberty. You wanted to. Day, as you were. I want to ask you how that unfolded for you. How what puberty was like. Yeah, almost the sexual side of becoming a teenager. As much or as little as you want to share, you know, no pressure.

Navigating Sexuality and Faith as a Teenager

Jonas Jödicke [00:51:03] Yeah, no, I feel like it's. It's a very important topic because I think that is also a huge part of my whole story. So I'm quite willing to share that openly. Yeah, I mean, my. My wish to not hit puberty didn't come true.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Of course.

Jonas Jödicke [00:51:20] I also went through. And I. So. So prior to that, even though I was not the typical boy, I still remember that I had crushes on girls in school. But then once I was around 14 years old, I guess when my hormones started to change and stuff, I felt more attracted to guys suddenly. And then at some point it was like just entirely feeling attracted to guys. And that was super confusing for me because, I mean, just in general, I think being gay and coming to terms with that is kind of difficult thing in society. But then also in the context of the church that teaches that homosexuality is basically one of the most egregious and most dirty since ever.

Jonas Jödicke [00:52:11] I constantly just felt like this dread inside and this shame. I was super ashamed of it. I didn't want to admit it to myself or anyone else, and I've talked about it with anyone. I always thought maybe it's just a face. Maybe it's just kind of during my. My teenage years, sometimes I even thought that maybe it was because of sins. Because, I mean, obviously as a teenager, you also start having sexual urges and desires. It's a normal thing. So sometimes I. I did like, masturbate and stuff like that, or maybe look at some explicit images online and stuff. I. I tried to stay away from it.

Jonas Jödicke [00:52:46] From it because I knew the. The church was teaching that it was very bad and very sinful. But it's just very difficult as a teenager with the hormones and everything to kind of completely stay away from anything sexual. So sometimes I would kind of equate my sins in the church context to my homosexual feelings. I'd be like, oh, maybe because I masturbated this one day, maybe that's why I suddenly like guys, you know, because some prophets even taught that in the past.

Nemo [00:53:14] Yes. And did you. So did you ever feel the need to go to the bishop about this? Did you ever, like, go and confess this stuff?

Jonas Jödicke [00:53:23] I. I felt the need, or at least I felt like I had to. But I. I, like for most of my youth, I didn't go to the bishop because I was just so afraid that he would tell my parents or even. I don't know, Like, I was also afraid that if I couldn't take the sacrament, sacrament, that that would mean that everybody basically knew what I was doing. Because usually when someone who is as young as I was isn't taking the sacrament, everybody just assumes it's not because they did some horrible thing like killing someone or whatever. It's Usually because they struggle with these kind of things.

Jonas Jödicke [00:53:57] And also because we had youth temple trips and stuff like that. And I wanted to go there as well with my friends. I didn't want to be the only one not going. So I was like, no, I can't share that with him. So I also liked sometimes during interviews and I felt even more horrible about myself. Felt like I'm not just this pervert, I'm also a liar and I'm hiding all these things from people. And yeah, it. It just really, really added to my social anxiety as well, because I just constantly felt like I was a horrible, sinful, dirty person.

Nemo [00:54:33] Was there ever anyone you felt like you could tell?

Jonas Jödicke [00:54:37] Not at that time, no. Because I even. I even thought also that my friends at church, that they were probably these really holy, clean people, like, super righteous, and would never, ever even think of doing something like that. That they were never having any sexual thoughts or having any. Yeah. Desires or urges to. To partake in any of that. So, no, I didn't.

Nemo [00:55:02] In reality, looking back, of course they were right.

Jonas Jödicke [00:55:06] Of course. I mean, yeah, later. Later on I talked to some people that I grew up with and they were like, yeah, of course everybody struggled with that. And most people just didn't tell the bishop because I remember when I later on, it's. It's of kind. Kind of part of the story later. But when I later on confessed to my bishop, he. He was like, oh, you're actually the first person in the. Like, the first youth in the world to come to me and confess, like, doing that. And I was always wondering if no one else is struggling with it, because are we all that holy in this ward or what is this thing? So I was like, okay, well, like, it seems like nobody really wanted to

Nemo [00:55:43] talk about it, which actually at the time probably made you feel really bad because you thought, well, maybe they are all holy and I'm the letdown and I'm the one who's had to tell him. Right?

Jonas Jödicke [00:55:52] Yeah, yeah, kind of.

Nemo [00:55:55] This is not great. Okay, so, John, do you have any questions surrounding that?

John Dehlin [00:56:01] I guess. I guess I'm curious In. In broader German culture, like, let's just say your friends at school was something like masturbation viewed as dirty or bad had it. Has it been normalized? Is there good sex education in public schools or private schools in Germany such that a. A normal German kid wouldn't be tormented? Or like, is there such religiosity elsewhere within Germany such that it would have been a normal German boy's experience to Feel guilt or shame or torment over things like masturbation or even, even homosexuality, same sex sexuality.

Jonas Jödicke [00:56:39] I, I think, you know, if you

John Dehlin [00:56:41] even know, maybe you don't know.

Jonas Jödicke [00:56:42] Yeah, no, I would say Germany, especially Berlin is actually quite liberal country and Berlin is a very liberal city. So I think that that wouldn't be the normal experience. I mean, many of my classmates always joked about jerking off and stuff like that. It was just a normal thing that they would talk about. And it was not viewed as something dirty, maybe something like funny or taboo to talk about. But still it was very much a normal thing. And the homosexual side of it is

John Dehlin [00:57:12] like,

Jonas Jödicke [00:57:16] I think just in general there's always like in society, people who are different from the norm, I think always face some kind of adversity. So when people were gay openly, they would usually be faced with people who would be like, oh, you're such a faggot or whatever, stuff like that. So I think that would be a bit more difficult also in society. But still, I think the level of the shame that the church instills in people who have these feelings and who have this identity is very much like a layer on top of that.

Nemo [00:57:56] I suppose it's like with black members in the priesthood, right? You've got general society where racism happens still, but then you have institutionalized discrimination within the church until the priesthood ban was lifted. So it's the same like you have institutionalized discrimination against gay people and homosexuality within the LDS Church, but in general society there is still, you know, discrimination against gay people amongst certain individuals. Totally.

Jonas Jödicke [00:58:22] And I, I think, yeah, and, and I think like a very egregious part is also that on, on top of facing pushback from society and getting negative feedback from people around you, they like these teachings instill a hate against yourself inside of yourself. So you, you, you're not just facing external criticism from people, but you're also like having this inner critic, this inner homophobe person that is making these comments in your brain basically and telling you like you are dirty, you are wrong the way you are. And I think that is the most, the most evil part of it because that is super difficult to get away from. You can maybe get away from people who are not good to you, but you can't really get away from yourself.

Nemo [00:59:10] And how did you cope with that self critic, that inner homophobe?

Jonas Jödicke [00:59:17] I think for the most part I really tried to just ignore the fact that I had these feelings. I tried to pretend that it's not there. I just told myself, okay, it's it's, it's still just a phase. It's just like this feeling that sometimes I have, but it's not who I am. This, this is not like I don't claim this energy. Yeah. I just tried to really push it as far away as I could.

Nemo [00:59:45] Can I. Can I ask you. See, you seem as though I'm going to make an assumption about you again. You seem as though you would have been a very studious seminary student, right? This idea that you wanted good grades so you would have gone to seminary regularly. You will have, you know, worked hard and you will have studied your scriptures. Did you ever search the scriptures for justifications for homosexuality? Did you ever appeal to the scriptures and look for some logic that you could say, well, actually, no, this is fine. And you know. Yeah. Did you ever. Did you ever look for that?

Jonas Jödicke [01:00:21] Well, to the first part of what you said, I actually wasn't that much of a. I didn't really go to seminary a lot actually, because in that time, I think when I started to struggle with all these things, at the same time, I also started to have lots of doubts about the church because I kind of scrutinized the church in my head. I was like, like all these rules, like, are they really what God would want us to follow? Because this is not really making me happy. And also I just had this general feeling of like, what if there is no God? What if this is just something that we believe in because we've never seen him?

Jonas Jödicke [01:01:02] And also, why would I be in the one true church and everyone else who also is religious and believes that they are in the true church according to our worldview, they are false about that. Why would it not be any different for me? Like why? You know, like I had all these kind of thoughts as a teenager and I had a time where I didn't really want to go to church. I still went most of the time, but sometimes my parents kind of had to like persuade me and I don't know, I just also because of my social anxiety, I just didn't really feel comfortable at church.

Jonas Jödicke [01:01:30] I felt very self conscious also, like blessing the sacrament and passing it to people and stuff. I just felt so, like in the spotlight and super dirty about myself and all these things. So I didn't really go that much to seminary.

Jonas Jödicke [01:01:45] But about the second part, like the searching of the scriptures for justification of homosexuality, I remember that I had like really long evenings or nights where I was just searching through all the material that the church had published on this topic. So I would go through the pamphlet for the strength of youth. And I would search for every single quote on homosexuality. Or later on, when. When the app was available, I would go through that, and I would search any talks by. By church leaders given on homosexuality. And everything that I would find was just devastating. Like, especially the further back you go, the kinds of things that the prophets taught about homosexuality is just horrible.

Jonas Jödicke [01:02:27] Like, it just makes you feel like you are basically equated to a pedophile and a murderer and someone who rapes people. So that's what I thought about myself. I was like, if I ever gave in to this temptation, if I ever came out as gay and lived this lifestyle, I would basically start raping people and become a pedophile as well. And it's just really, really horrible. So whenever I searched all these things, I just felt even more devastated about myself.

Nemo [01:02:57] So did you. You view it in a sense that you were. You were this way, you know, you were gay and you had these feelings and you were trying to deny them, but it was almost okay as long as you weren't, you know, living the lifestyle as you described it, because that would be giving into essentially what you're viewing as a temptation. Am I understanding that correctly?

Jonas Jödicke [01:03:19] Yeah, yeah, pretty much that. I mean, I already felt guilty just for having thoughts or even sometimes I would look at, like. Like I said earlier, sometimes I would look at porn online. I mean, it was very rare, but, yeah, sometimes I did. Yeah, but usually that, like, no, like, not usually. All the time. That it was only, like, straight porn. I would never even look at gay porn or anything like that. But I. Sometimes I would find myself looking at the guy and kind of being much more attracted to the guy, and I would feel super guilty about that. So even just the thoughts and the temptation, the feeling these kind of emotions and stuff, I already felt very guilty about that. But, yeah, in my mind, I thought that living that lifestyle was like a very. Like a step further, basically.

Nemo [01:04:09] It's amazing to me that you can be, you know, watching porn already, essentially sinning in the eyes of the church and then. But yet feel worse because of who you're attracted to within the pornography. I mean, that's. That's like just an extra layer of horrible sort of guilt and shame.

Jonas Jödicke [01:04:31] Yeah, totally. Like, when I think about my teenage years, like, so many people, when they think about their teenage years, they have many great memories. I mean, teenage years in general can be difficult for many people, but I think many people have lots of really great experiences. I'm not saying that I never had Any great experience. I also had many fun memories, but in general, the word that comes to my mind is just shame. I was in constant shame about myself. I just constantly thought that I was wrong the way I am, that I'm a horrible, dirty person. That's really the only thing that really stands out to me for this time.

Nemo [01:05:08] Some. Some would argue the church's best resource, and I use the word best very loosely, was the Mormon and gay website. I think that was. There was almost like a high point, maybe. Was that available to you at the time?

Jonas Jödicke [01:05:25] I think that it was. I think I only found that when I returned from my mission. I think before that, I never really. I think that wasn't that. The website didn't even. Even exist at that time, I think.

Nemo [01:05:35] Okay, cool. So sticking to your teenage years, and thank you for sharing all this with us. I'm really kind of. I'm finding it quite moving to hear this insight into your teenage years. I want to ask you about EFY, or FSY, as it's now called, but it would have been EFY at the time. What year was your first EFY?

EFY Youth Conference Experience in Europe

Jonas Jödicke [01:05:58] So I was 14. It was 14 years ago. It must have been like, 2008, I think.

Nemo [01:06:04] Okay, so then tell me what that was like.

Jonas Jödicke [01:06:09] Yeah, that was a very special experience. So I was kind of talked into going to eve. Why? By friends of mine at church and also a bit by my parents, because, as I said, I just had this social anxiety at this time. I felt awful about myself. So I didn't really want to spend time on this big camp for youth.

Jonas Jödicke [01:06:34] But then people were like, no, no, you need to go. It's really, really cool. You're gonna love it. So I. I did go. And the thing is, at that time, I had longer hair. I think my hair was maybe, like, until here.

Jonas Jödicke [01:06:47] And so for Eve White, they have a rule that you have to have short hair so it can't go over your ears. And mine did go over my ear. So before efy, I went to the hairdresser, and they cut my hair, and it was maybe like 1cm over my ears still. Like, really, really, like, just a little tiny bit. And I was like, okay, I think that's fine. I still had, like, longish hair, but it was short enough to kind of fit the rules. But then we went there. We drove there with a big bus, and I got out of the bus, and the very moment I stepped out of the bus, like, the very moment an old guy approached me, put his arm around my shoulders, and was like really, like with a soft spoken, Mormon loving voice was like, yeah, brother, I need to like take you away from the group.

Jonas Jödicke [01:07:38] And I was super confused. I was like, what's going on? So he took me away to a chair of a chess circle and I already saw some other young guys sitting there as well and their hair was being cut.

Jonas Jödicke [01:07:52] And I was like, no way. Like I already cut my hair. Like it's, it should be short enough now. And they were like, yeah, we're sorry, but it's still over your ears. Like it's not following the rules, so we will need to cut your hair.

Jonas Jödicke [01:08:05] And. And I mean, I didn't want to, but then they were like, if you don't comply, if you don't do this, you will have to go home and you will have to pay for the trip by yourself.

Nemo [01:08:14] What?

Jonas Jödicke [01:08:15] I mean, I was super young. I was 14. We were also quite far away from Berlin. We were somewhere in, I think southern Germany or something. So I was like, there's no way I would travel back by myself.

Jonas Jödicke [01:08:28] Yeah. So I said, okay, well if it's the only option, then what else can I do? So they did cut my hair. And while they were cutting my hair, the people that were doing it were talking about how unexperienced they are with cutting. And they were like, oh yeah, I just learned it this summer. Like they had like little workshop at eve. Why how to cut hair. And they were like, yeah, I don't really know how to do it, but we're doing it anyways and stuff like that. And they were laughing about it. And I felt so horrible because when they were done with my hair, it looked crazy.

Jonas Jödicke [01:08:57] It looked very, like it was a very amateur haircut. And I was already feeling so self conscious and bad about myself and now I was also looking ridiculous in my eyes. So it just made the whole experience so much worse. And then at the opening ceremony of efy, we had everyone gathered in a big room. There were like hundreds of young people. And on the stage, the eve y parents were doing the opening ceremony. And then we're like, and we want to applaud everyone who was so brave tonight to cut their hair. And they hold up, held up a bag with all the cut hair.

Nemo [01:09:38] It's horrific.

Jonas Jödicke [01:09:39] Everybody please get up and give us. Oh, and I think, I think we also needed to stand up, actually. I needed to stand up with a few other people that got their hair cut so everybody could look at the horrible job that they did. And I just felt humiliated. And it was like yeah, one of the worst experiences.

Nemo [01:09:57] That's because it is humiliating. They've singled you out as someone that didn't follow the rules and, and had to be put straight. And then they've. They've singled you out in front of the whole group and shown evidence of your infraction, whatever you want to call it, to the group. It's horrific. It's.

Jonas Jödicke [01:10:16] It's. It was, it was very, very bad. When I got home from ify, I told my parents, my mom was super angry. She wrote a letter right away, I think, to even to the first presidency. She was like, if you don't stop this thing, like, I'm gonna take EFY down. Like, this is not happening to any other young kids anymore. And I was so affected by that experiences. Experience that I think for the next four years or so, I barely ever cut my hair. Like, I let it grow really long to my shoulders and I just didn't want to cut it anymore because that was kind of my way of saying F you. Like, I just, yeah, wanted to do my own thing and not.

Nemo [01:10:58] There's anyone seen a picture of Jesus lately. Just want to throw that out there. Go on.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] John, There's a. There's a comment from Mirapa. Mirapa writes to give some background information on the haircutting. This was heavily discussed the entire week and also afterwards. Parents heavily complained it traumatized an entire generation of German. I'm assuming male Mirpah means German Latter Day Saints. So it sounds like this. I mean, this haircutting thing was, was, was kind of a countrywide problem. Is that true? Yeah, just one efy or was that a ritual every year? Do you know?

Jonas Jödicke [01:11:37] I think it was a ritual, but I think after the IFY that I attended, I think they even. They stopped it because I think so many parents complained that they were like, okay, we can't sustain this. We can't do this anymore because otherwise people will not send their kids to ify.

Nemo [01:11:53] The thing to point out for you and the American listeners, John, is the EFY will have essentially, I think they're mission wide here in Europe. So it's like it's. Or even in Germany, it might be countrywide. I'm not sure what was the catchment for it. Jonas, where were people coming from?

Jonas Jödicke [01:12:11] I don't actually remember. I don't know anymore who was included.

Nemo [01:12:15] So for example, in the uk, you've got the Scotland, Ireland one. So people in that mission go to one. You've got people within the Leeds mission, go to one, Manchester, etc, sometimes two missions will join up depending on whether they've got enough youth. So this, like, it will have affected an entire country's worth of youth, this experience, because that's how small the church is.

Jonas Jödicke [01:12:36] I think we also had people from Austria, now that I remember. So I think it was also pretty much like lots of different stakes combined from different countries also.

Nemo [01:12:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] And, and I, if I had to guess what's going on here, it's, it's kind of like identity maintenance and boundary maintenance. You, the Mormon Church wants Mormons to stand out in a specific way. Even though you look at our old prophets and apostles, they've got beards and you know, like you said, Nemo, Jesus had long hair. In the modern 20, you know, 20th, 21st century Mormon Church, we need to be able to stand out, be unique. People need to feel like they've got an identity that maybe even makes them feel superior to everyone around them.

John Dehlin [01:13:22] And there's sort of a brand that the church, just like a, just like an employee of a company needs to wear the uniform. The church, you know, needs its brand identity and it needs everyone to feel Mormon. And so appearance, hairstyle, white shirt, tie, clothing is all, is all part of that brand and identity maintenance. Right. And if you don't conform, you're. You're kind of pushed out. So in all those ways, it's important psychological activity for the church, even though it's often traumatic for the people involved. And Maven writes conformity and virtue signaling and that's all. Yeah, the idea of obedience, how in a, in a high demand religion, you know, behavior is, is controlled.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] Right. And so you want to give your members rules around diet, rules around sexuality, and rules around appearance, because that's how all high demand religions help to wield influence on its members.

Jonas Jödicke [01:14:26] Yeah, totally. And it's very interesting because I felt like at efy, that was one of the big themes. Like they really wanted you to not feel so much as an individual, but to be part of this big group. I don't know if you have the same thing in, in the US but at the FY that I went to, they had this cheer that everyone was doing. It was something like we were clapping a few times and then like

John Dehlin [01:14:55] doing

Jonas Jödicke [01:14:56] this thing and then like EF something like that and even like raising the hand and whatever. And I was like, it reminded me so much of the youth programs that were part of the third. Whatever it's called. Like just this thing of like they really wanted to create this, this really strong feeling of we are one group and we Belong together. Also at the testimony meetings, everybody was crying and, and I always felt like it was a very spiritual experience. Like, I felt very warm inside of my. Because everybody was so, was so open and vulnerable. But at the same time after that, I always felt like, what, what even happened in that room?

Jonas Jödicke [01:15:37] Like, why was everybody suddenly so emotional and just crying, just bawling their eyes out? It was almost as if we were hypnotizing each other and just being like in a group state of hypnosis. I don't know. Like, yeah, I think, like, that was one of the things that like really was created at Eve, why you kind of became part of this, this youth group.

Nemo [01:15:58] It was the same in the uk. I, I, when you said it, I remember the chance someone shouts, all right, that's what triggers it off. So you can just be walking around. Someone shouts it and it's like sort of dog whistle. Everyone's like, all right, I know what to do. And the clapping starts. I won't do it because I don't want to like, trigger someone who had a terrible experience with it, as many people did. But yeah, it was certainly the same here. And I feel like I don't know the same in the States.

John Dehlin [01:16:24] It's probably worth mentioning the role of why of EFY and now ysa, because just like the Mormon missions are really important for the indoctrination of, of Latter Day Saints or Mormons. EFY is kind of that pre indoctrination because you have these spiritual experiences. You're taught the doctrine, you're taught the theology, but you're also meeting a bunch of peers that are a member of your church that you wouldn't meet in your local high schools. Normally you're able to kind of do dances, but also have these spiritual experiences, these testimony meetings, these charismatic, emotionally charged kind of experiences that hopefully have you experience a high level of, of emotionality that, that if, if working ideally will seal you and seal your commitment to the church.

Nemo [01:17:22] Yeah, they create uplift, emotion, right?

John Dehlin [01:17:25] Yeah. Yep.

Jonas Jödicke [01:17:27] Yeah. Actually that's, that's also what happened to me at my last fsy because I didn't go to FSY for four years after my first one. I, I didn't want to go there anymore. But then when I turned 18, I had the chance to go to my last fsy and at that point I was kind of feeling a bit better about myself. I had a bit more self confidence and stuff like that. And my friends at church, they, they told me, hey, I know you didn't want to go these Past years. But things have really changed. They don't have these rules anymore about the haircut and things like that.

Jonas Jödicke [01:18:00] And they were like, hey, do you want to join us and just go there again? And I did. And it was actually a very great experience and also a very spiritual one for me at that time, because I still had many doubts about the church. I was also thinking about going on a mission at that time, because my dad had always wanted his sons to go on a mission. He was always talking about his mission. He served in Switzerland, and he loved it. And he was like, it's the greatest experience ever. Like, you have to go. But I was always kind of like, I don't know.

Jonas Jödicke [01:18:30] I don't really know if I really believe in the church, if I'm capable of going out and preaching it to people. But then on this fsy, I remember that one of the teachers there shared a very vulnerable, vulnerable story where he said that he also had had a time where he had had lots of doubts. But what he kind of tried to cling on to was the concept of faith. And. And that faith doesn't always mean that you really know that something is true or you see it, or you really like experience being true. But it's just sometimes a decision that you make. Faith can just be an action.

Jonas Jödicke [01:19:09] So even though you might not feel like the church is true, or even though you might not think that the church is true, you can still take an action and show your faith in that way. And then maybe God will bless you with an actual testimony if you just take the first step of faith. Now, going back thinking about that concept, for me, it obviously appears a bit weird because you're basically just reinforcing beliefs by doing that. Like you are acting towards a certain goal, and that will kind of reinforce it to you and make it true in your mind. But back then, that was the answer for me because I was like, I don't really feel like the church is true, but I can still go on a mission. I can still do these things and show my faith, and maybe that way I will gain an actual testimony.

Nemo [01:19:57] Yeah. And so how did you go about preparing for your mission?

Jonas Jödicke [01:20:01] Yeah. So after this ify experience, I kind of challenged myself. I told myself, okay, if I want to go on a mission, I really have to gain a testimony first. And so I set out to read the Book of Mormon from the first page to the last page. Because before that, like I said, I never really went to seminary that often. I had never really read the Book of Mormon fully But I told myself that I'm going to do it and I'm going to test Moroni's promise, which is to read the Book of Mormon and then pray about it and ask God if it's true.

Jonas Jödicke [01:20:38] So I did that for a whole year. I was reading in the Book of Mormon every single day from the first page to the last, and I asked God in the end if it was true. And I didn't really receive an answer. So Morona's promise didn't really work for me. But I just had the thought of.

Jonas Jödicke [01:20:58] Well, during the whole year where I was reading in the Book of Mormon every single day, I kind of felt a little bit better about myself. And I felt like the things that I was reading felt kind of good and they motivated me to be a more loving and kind and caring person.

Jonas Jödicke [01:21:16] So I just told myself, well, maybe that's my answer, because I heard. Had also heard that concept in some talks at general conference, that sometimes the answers don't come with a big bang, but for some people, they kind of come gradually and just. Just feels like suddenly you have this aha moment where you look back and you're like, well, I've always had a testimony all this time. So that was like my experience.

Nemo [01:21:40] That's that Bednar video. Do you remember that one? Do you remember being shown that one where he talks about how revelation comes

Jonas Jödicke [01:21:46] to him with a light switch?

Nemo [01:21:48] Yeah, yeah. It's like. It's not like a light switch, but it's like a fog and it develops itself. Yeah, yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [01:21:54] So weird.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] It's so weird that the Mormon testimony is based on this sort of supposed metaphysical event where God himself comes and tells you that this is what you should be doing, but then when you actually go to do it, you don't really have that experience. And so then they. They kind of lower the bar and basically recharacterize normal human emotion as a witness so that you believe you got a witness from God, whereas in reality they just had you redefine normal emotions as coming from the divine. Am I getting that wrong, Jonas? That's how I'm hearing your description of what happened.

Jonas Jödicke [01:22:37] Yeah, no, totally. I mean, that is something that I only realized after stepping away from the church. But I think that's totally what's happening. I think they. They take normal human emotions that you experience in certain contexts. I mean, for example, if you attend a testimony meeting and people are sharing very vulnerable stuff about themselves, or maybe you will share a very vulnerable story about your own life, and you are also very Nervous standing in front of all these people. But then you have a good experience and everybody loves that you got up and were brave enough to share this story. Of course you will feel great and you feel this strong sense of warmness in your heart and all these things.

Jonas Jödicke [01:23:15] And I think just by itself isolated, these emotions are very nice. I mean, I love feeling the spirit. I love feeling that warm feeling in my heart. It's a very edifying feeling. But I think the way that the Mormon Church takes these experiences and then recontextualizes them and puts them in their certain church context and that they mean certain things, that this means that the church is now true and now you have to give us your money and give us all the time and stuff like that. I think that's, that's the problem.

Nemo [01:23:45] And I think you're taught, you're taught almost the Mormon. You're taught the Mormon names and origins for these otherwise normal human emotions. I want to ask a quick question. Did you ever struggle to. Did you ever struggle to vocalize negative emotion because you were taught that you know, it means you've been sinful or. So, for example, I know that I used to feel very anxious a lot as a child, but I couldn't tell anyone I felt anxious because I was that feeling of anxiety, that negative emotion that all comes from Satan. So I shouldn't be telling people about it. Is that just me or does that ring true to you?

Jonas Jödicke [01:24:22] No, totally. Because I felt the same way. I always thought that when I was feeling anxious or depressed or shameful or very down on myself, I always connected it to certain things that I had done. Like, I always thought that it was a punishment by God for sinning because in my mind, any negative emotion like anger and feeling anxious and depressed were coming from Satan and any good emotion was coming from God. So whenever I was feeling something that was uncomfortable, I thought it was my own fault and that I had to repent. And that's usually what I tried also, for example, in terms of the struggles with masturbation and things like that.

Jonas Jödicke [01:25:07] Like, I completely realized that was a big connection between. When it happened, I felt sweet, super down on myself. I felt much more anxious, much more self conscious, much more social anxiety. But then I tried to repent. I didn't do it for a month or two months. I felt much better about myself and then I fell back into it and then I felt horrible about myself again and I felt like I was a sinner and I was feeling all these things. So, yeah, I totally thought it was Just a punishment by God.

Nemo [01:25:37] Natasha Helford did a great episode with, with you, John. I believe it was where she talked about this cycle that pornography and masturbation can create in Mormons, because masturbating makes you feel good, but then you feel like a horrible, dirty sinner and you feel all this shame and guilt around it, and you say you're going to not do it again. And people get this idea of an addiction coming out of it, when in reality what you're kind of doing is then self medicating. You're masturbating then to make yourself feel better again, but then it heaps on more shame. And it's this cycle that just goes down and down and down and down because you're not actually addicted to it. You're just trying to make yourself feel better by doing something that makes you feel worse. Have I understood that correctly, John? That's what I took away from what Natasha was saying.

Jonas Jödicke [01:26:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] And Will, that, that was an episode Natasha, I and Margi did called A New Approach to Pornography and Masturbation, because this is a huge epidemic in the church and it causes a lot of depression and even suicidality outside of the LGBT kind of Q arena. So I'll make sure and include that in the show notes so that people can check that out if they want to try something different. Nemo, before we jump to the mission, I do have a question, Jonas, but I don't want to stop.

Preparing for and Entering the Mission Field

Nemo [01:26:51] No, no, no, no, no. We're about to go to the mission, so speak now or forever hold your peace. John.

John Dehlin [01:26:55] Okay, Jonas, really quickly. Did you ever try and date a woman? And when I say date a woman, I mean, you know, go on a date, hold her hand, kiss her, you know, make out, as we call the United States snog, as they say in the uk. Did you ever try that before the mission? And did you. Are you comfortable sharing if you tried to have any romantic physical expressions with the man prior to your mission? Anything you're comfortable sharing about that? Because some people like to say being gay is you were abused. You, you know, that's why you had feelings for the same sex. Maybe you were abused, or maybe you, you know, experimented with things or goofed around when you shouldn't have. So I just wanted to give you a chance to talk about any romantic experiences prior to the mission.

Jonas Jödicke [01:27:52] Well, there were none. I mean, I. I never dated a girl before my mission. I had a few girls that I kind of tried to get closer to because I, I just saw it as my duty to. To Kind of experiment with that because that's always a big emphasis in the church that you need to, like, especially when you're 16, like, should start maybe dating girls and like, just getting to know them and stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [01:28:21] But not. Yeah, there weren't really any, like, really any experiences worth mentioning. I think I just remember that one time I wrote in my journal, I wrote something like, I really need to get a girlfriend. Because I always had this feeling in my mind like, that there was something wrong with me because I was not getting a girlfriend like most of my friends were.

Jonas Jödicke [01:28:44] But it was just very difficult for me to kind of get over the point of just being friends with girls. I was always super close with girls. I was actually having more girlfriends at school and also in church mostly than guy friends because I just got along very well with them. But I never felt this really strong romantic attraction towards them. So there was just no huge desire for me even to try out something with them. And then for the guys, there were a few guys that I had crushes

John Dehlin [01:29:16] on

Jonas Jödicke [01:29:18] inside the church, but also at school. But I never pursued anything. It was just kind of like I just felt that they were really cute or something. I wanted to be around them. But yeah, never tried anything.

Nemo [01:29:32] Is that kind of like a line you would not cross sort of thing?

Jonas Jödicke [01:29:36] Yeah, okay, exactly. Because I was still trying to kind of pretend that it was not in there, basically.

Nemo [01:29:43] So now you, as a, as a gay young man, are about to go and spend two years of your life entirely surrounded by men, some of whom can, you know, be quite cruel to gay men. There's this jock mentality that comes across amongst some missionaries. I can imagine that was probably quite a scary prospect for you. Did you have any sort of thoughts about what that would be like for you? Just pre mission?

John Dehlin [01:30:11] Were you afraid? Were you excited? Were you, you know, any of that?

Jonas Jödicke [01:30:15] Yeah, I was kind of scared of it, actually. And I, I even remember that my mom warned me about gay missionaries, right? She, she, she said like, yeah, I think that there are some gay missionaries because my mom, she's, she's super lovely. She was a great mom in many ways. But she, I think, had some prejudices also against gay people and homosexuality because her brother is gay. So my uncle, and she also didn't attend his wedding at the time when he got married to a man because she didn't want to support the lifestyle.

Jonas Jödicke [01:30:47] And she didn't make any, like super homophobic comments at home. But sometimes she would say little things like, oh, yeah, people nowadays, and they kind of want to test out everything, and she feels like it's just not natural and not right and stuff like that. So she would warn me about that. She would be like, hey, if there's ever any elder on your mission that kind of wants to do things with you that you're not comfortable with, like, don't do it and be careful about that and stuff. So I was kind of.

Jonas Jödicke [01:31:12] I was kind of anxious about it. I was like, what if I ever have a crush on any of my companions or any elder on my mission? Like, how would that be, living with them, not being able to even communicate about it or something? So, yeah.

Nemo [01:31:26] Were you ever worried about it being reciprocated? We ever worried about also being paired up with a gay elder and then thinking, well, what if we're both, you know, attracted to each other?

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [01:31:36] Yeah. I mean, that was definitely a thought that came to my mind, but I was just kind of hoping that that would not even happen. I was also just kind of trying to push those fears away. And I was also really hoping that my mission would cure my same sex attraction. Like, that was always the thing. I was like, maybe if I serve God really well on my mission, maybe he will take that away from me as a reward.

Nemo [01:32:01] Right. Okay, so that's kind of how you were feeling going into your mission.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] So did you ever actually say, heavenly Father, please make this go away. Did you ever have those prayers as a teenager?

Jonas Jödicke [01:32:13] All the time. Yeah, all the time.

John Dehlin [01:32:15] I mean, want to talk about what that was like?

Jonas Jödicke [01:32:19] Well, I. I prayed to God all the time that he would take the gay away. I would say to him, like, hey, I really don't want to have these feelings. I don't know if. If I'm just born like that or if it's like something because I. I sinned in some way or whatever, but I just really don't want to have these feelings. I want to marry a girl. I want to have a family. I want to have my own kids and all these things. So please just take it away from me. But it never happened. And I felt like, why is that? Like, why would God punish me with those feelings even though I didn't even want them? And why would he not take it away from me if that was my desire?

Nemo [01:33:01] And if he's so against it and you're so down for not having it anymore, why wouldn't he just take it away? It seems like a perfect arrangement. God doesn't want you to be gay. Clearly that's what the LDS Church is teaching. He doesn't like what you wanting to do. You don't want to feel that way because of what you've been taught. So, you know, you're both singing from the same hymn sheet. Why is he not just take it away?

Jonas Jödicke [01:33:22] Yeah, exactly. It just didn't make any sense to me. Especially if you're not.

John Dehlin [01:33:27] Especially if you're, like, trying to not masturbate, trying not to look at porn, not, you know, avoiding any relation. Physical relationships with men. You're reading the Book of Mormon cover to cover, which a lot of Mormon youth don't even do, necessarily. It sounds like you were doing everything you possibly could.

Jonas Jödicke [01:33:46] Yeah, totally.

Nemo [01:33:47] But then you. You get to that point where, you know, you think, you know, you masturbate, and you go, oh, well, if I just managed to not masturbate a bit longer, then maybe it would have been taken away. And you blame yourself for the fact that God didn't help you out because you didn't quite make your end of the bargain. The bargain you were kind of striking with God. This may be jumping ahead slightly, and we will make sure we definitely keep to the order. I just wanted to ask, pre mission, were you ever in a position where you thought I would marry a woman, despite how I'm feeling? Were you. Were you kind of prepared to go into that marriage not really being sexually attracted to a woman, but, you know, that's what you do have to have that family that you said you wanted.

Jonas Jödicke [01:34:29] Mm. I think before my mission, I wasn't thinking about marriage that much. Okay. I mean, it is a thought that sometimes crossed my mind, but it was kind of, like, still far away from me. I was like, okay, after my mission, I'm gonna take care of that. I'm gonna think about that more. But I was definitely. I mean, the thought of being with a guy didn't even cross my mind. I didn't. I didn't know anything about how gill relationships worked. I didn't even know how gay sex worked, for example. Like, I literally didn't know that. Even after my mission, I didn't know any of this stuff. So it was just like. Yeah. I mean, in my mind, I was always going to marry a woman and be a dad to children and all these things, because that. That's what the church teaches.

Nemo [01:35:13] And then hopefully your mission would cure you, so that would just be easy.

Jonas Jödicke [01:35:16] Exactly. Yeah.

Nemo [01:35:18] Okay. So you sent in your mission papers. Standard procedure. We've covered that tons of times on the podcast. You know, you did all your medicals, all that sort of stuff, and you Got your call. How, what was that like? Did the family all gather round? Was it your very typical opening the letter? Tell us about that and how you felt about where you were going.

Jonas Jödicke [01:35:37] Yeah, so I remember being very much, I was hoping very much that I would go to some exotic country. I really wanted to go to Australia for some reason because my, my aunt lives in Australia and it just seemed like such a cool country to serve my mission in.

Jonas Jödicke [01:35:56] Or I was also hoping maybe to go to, I don't like South America or just to some really far away country where I would not just be a normal missionary, but maybe I could even like have this kind of charity mission where I help people and stuff like that. So that was kind of my hope. But. But then I got my letter and for some reason, even when I held my hands, I knew that I was not going to any of these places. I really felt like I'm going to something that's quite close to my place.

Jonas Jödicke [01:36:26] Because that's also usually what happens with people who are being called from Germany. And like I mentioned earlier, my dad was serving in the Swiss mission. And I opened my letter and I was actually by myself at first. I told my family, I don't want to open it together with you. I want to open it by myself. I was, I was even like praying before that. I was reading the scriptures and I think I even read a scripture somewhere that said something like, don't indulge in the desires of your heart, but just follow what God wants. I don't know. And I was like, maybe that's like pointed at me like, that's what I need to do right now.

Jonas Jödicke [01:37:02] And I opened the papers and it said that I was called to the Alpine German speaking mission, which is, yes, I had this also.

John Dehlin [01:37:11] Nima, what is that? What are you showing us?

Nemo [01:37:13] That is a little patch from the Alpine German mission says, wir sin junge Jesu Christi upen lendische mission. So

John Dehlin [01:37:23] that's not where you served, right, Nemo?

Nemo [01:37:25] No, this is a gift from a friend who did serve in that mission. But I thought it was appropriate for tonight to show this

John Dehlin [01:37:35] mission that you lived in. Right. That would have been an adjacent mission to where you grew up.

Jonas Jödicke [01:37:41] Yeah, yeah, so. So Berlin is kind of more northeast of Germany. And the Alpine German speaking mission is Switzerland, which is south of Germany, and then southern parts of Germany, like Munich and stuff like that, and then also Austria.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] And is that kind of cool or is that not super cool?

Jonas Jödicke [01:38:00] At first I was very disappointed, I have to admit. I was like, I Kind of knew it, but I was like, ah, I would have loved to go somewhere else. But then my dad was obviously super excited when I told my family, and he said that actually Switzerland is one of the most beautiful countries in the. In the entire world. And now looking back, I totally agree. Switzerland is very, very beautiful, and I'm very glad I got to serve there.

John Dehlin [01:38:26] So you had not been to Switzerland before your mission?

Jonas Jödicke [01:38:30] I think we drove through Switzerland once as a family, but never really stayed there.

Nemo [01:38:34] Okay.

Jonas Jödicke [01:38:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:37] What year were you called?

Jonas Jödicke [01:38:40] So my mission started in 2013, and I think I was called in late 2012.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] Okay, so your mission's in 13. Okay, that's good to know.

Nemo [01:38:48] Okay, so just a quick question on that. Is that for our foreign listeners, I guess, to Europe, those that aren't from Europe, it's very common for people like Jonas to speak English through school. And you know, this the reason his English is so good. So you came to your mission with a good level of English and German, right? Were you kind of wanting to learn a third language?

Jonas Jödicke [01:39:13] I would have loved to, yeah. That was also like one of my wishes. But. But yeah, in. In Switzerland, Austria, I mean, you learn

Nemo [01:39:22] Swiss German, so that's, you know.

Jonas Jödicke [01:39:23] Yeah, it's. It's kind of like a different language in some ways. It's. It's still German in. In the more southern parts of Switzerland, they actually also speak French. I didn't serve in any of these

Nemo [01:39:35] places because it is technically it's the Alpine German speaking mission. Is that not its full title? I think?

Jonas Jödicke [01:39:41] Yeah, fully German.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] I really relate because I speak English and then people like Nemo speak this British kind of version of English. Weird kind of offshoot of English. Like a derivative. Kind of.

Nemo [01:39:53] Like a derivative. How dare you, sir? This is original right here. World beating quite literally.

John Dehlin [01:40:08] Okay, cool.

Nemo [01:40:09] So you got your. You got your mission corps. Your dad's super excited. You're a bit. But, you know, there is some. Because you said you were quite socially anxious. There is, I suppose, some social pressure off in that you're going to be teaching in your native language. You know, you know the ropes, as it were. You know the scriptures already because you're not having to memorize new scripture masteries in a different language. Like, how was. Was there some relief there because of that?

Jonas Jödicke [01:40:36] Yeah, that. That was a relief that I knew that I was going to teach in. In German. But yeah, you mentioned the social anxiety. Even though I had already gotten a little bit better at that time with that, I was still very anxious to kind of be in contact with people all the time on my mission to like approach them on the streets. Because I'm not someone who is always super outgoing, especially with people I don't know. So that was still like a fear of mine. I was like, oh, I don't know if that's going to be like the best thing for me to do, but.

Nemo [01:41:08] Okay. Okay. So any, any experiences with the mtc you. You assume I'm trying. Did you go to Preston?

Life as a Missionary in Switzerland

Jonas Jödicke [01:41:16] Yes.

Nemo [01:41:17] Okay. Yeah. Yes, you went to Preston. So Preston MTC is in England. It's next to the Preston Temple. So I know they do German speaking mission prep there. So did you have, because you were a German speaker, did you go into an intake group that were all already native German speakers or did you have to help the Americans learn German? And how was that if that was the case?

Jonas Jödicke [01:41:44] So I was with a German group, so the people that went to the MDC with me were all German because we had a quite big group at that time because we were one of the first missions right after the announcement that the missionary age is being lowered.

Jonas Jödicke [01:42:01] So we had lots of people going on the missions because now you could go when you were 18 already. And that was quite cool to be surrounded by so many Germans. But we were also having activities all the times with the American missionaries and different missionaries from different countries and stuff.

Jonas Jödicke [01:42:20] And I got along quite well with the German missionaries. There was especially one sister that I got really close with. We became super good friends and some people even accused of us of flirting all the time because we were always together and just talking about everything.

Jonas Jödicke [01:42:37] But obviously we were not flirting. Not from my side. But then I kind of felt out of place oftentimes with the guys, especially also guys from the US because I felt like they kind of. My sister's walking through the room.

Jonas Jödicke [01:42:57] Yeah, I felt kind of weird with them because you mentioned this kind of jock mentality. And since I'm a bit more like soft and emotional or not the typical boy, I just felt like I didn't really fit in again. I mean, it's kind of like a story of my life. But I just felt like, I don't know, I just felt weird around them because they were.

Nemo [01:43:22] Did you ever try?

Jonas Jödicke [01:43:24] I tried, but I just couldn't. I'm not someone who's like, yo, bro, what's up? Let's go. You know, it's like, like they, they were just kind of always out doing sports and like talking about boy stuff. And I, I don't know, I just wanted to be with the sisters, especially this one sister, and talk about our emotions and about, I don't know, things we learn from the scriptures and music and just very different interests and I don't know, I just felt uncomfortable oftentimes.

Nemo [01:43:56] And do you feel like. Because you were carrying around this guilt to do with you, you know, these feelings you had towards being attracted to men. Do you ever felt. Feel like this singled you out? Did you ever worry that people would notice this behavior and suspect something? Do you feel like you had a secret you had to kind of try and hide or.

Jonas Jödicke [01:44:15] I think, I think that was a thing in general for me. Not, not just in the mcc, but in general. I always tried to appear straight as. As much as I could. I always, for example, I would not sit somewhere and kind of put one leg above the other like this because I felt like that would. Could come off too feminine.

Nemo [01:44:37] So I would always like, man spread, right?

Jonas Jödicke [01:44:40] Yeah, exactly. Stuff like that or the way I talk or the way I kind of like, I don't know, like just these little things. I would be very self conscious about these things and really try to not come off as feminine. And actually one thing that is worth mentioning here is that my. My younger brother, he was actually someone in my family who, who was coming off more feminine towards people. Like he had all these little mannerisms where he would also not be like a typical boy and people would also approach him like, like, why are you acting like that? And stuff? And I always felt like there was a time where I kind of felt a bit of apprehension towards my brother because I think I kind of saw a mirror of myself in him in some ways, and he was kind of just like that.

Jonas Jödicke [01:45:35] And I kind of tried to hold everything in. And yeah, I think this like internalized homophobia. I kind of pushed it towards him, which in hindsight I feel very sorry for. But that was just like the way I kind of.

Nemo [01:45:51] Did you ever try and like warn him? Ever say like, oh, you shouldn't redo that, you know, this isn't. Or did you feel like that would out you so you had to kind of just watch on?

Jonas Jödicke [01:46:01] Yeah, I would not really warn him about it, but I would sometimes mention it and then be like, why are you doing like, why are you acting like this? Or something like that?

Nemo [01:46:11] Okay. Okay. John, any questions about the MTC experience?

John Dehlin [01:46:16] No.

Nemo [01:46:17] All right, so you arrive in. Where was your first area? Where did you greenie?

Jonas Jödicke [01:46:22] My first area was Veticon.

Nemo [01:46:24] Oh, I was born in Veticon.

Jonas Jödicke [01:46:27] It's a small town, kind of close To Zurich. And I remember. So maybe just one thing to mention about the MTC also is that I felt very. I felt very weirdly about all the, like, the fixation on the rules. Because when we came to the mtc, one of the first things we did was we all got into like a big circle and we all stood up and we recited the purpose of missionaries, which is like, to find people to teach the gospel to and baptize and all these things. And everything came off very robotic because we were all like speaking in unison together and felt like a military kind of experience almost.

Jonas Jödicke [01:47:13] And then just the way also that some of the teachers taught us. There was one teacher, for example, who got up in a very authoritative way and then he would be like, if you don't talk to everyone on your mission, like, even people on the street that are very far off, like, if you don't approach every single person, that means you don't think that they deserve salvation. And then that's on you. Like, you need to talk to every single person that you meet. Otherwise you're not a good missionary. Like, these kind of things were taught to us at the mtc. I mean, not entirely. They were also good teachers.

Jonas Jödicke [01:47:44] But yeah, I just felt very weird about that. I was like, no, because I'm a very freedom loving person. And being confronted with this culture where you have to just follow rules and just follow blindly, I just really hated that from the get, get go.

Jonas Jödicke [01:48:03] And then once, once I came into my first area, I met the mission president who was from America, and he, like the first thing. So I came into the room, I sat down in front of him and he just shook my hand. And with a very, like, firm and piercing view, like looking right into my eyes, he was like, hey, Elder Unica, will you be 100% obedient on your mission? Will you promise me that?

Jonas Jödicke [01:48:31] That was the only thing, the first thing. He didn't even say hello or anything like that. He was just like, will you be 100% obedient? And that's kind of like a foreshadowing for the entire mission experience because I felt like that was the thing that everybody cared about. And I just felt so weird about that. I was like, for me, it's like, I just want to love people and just want to serve them. It's not really about obedience for me.

Nemo [01:48:56] Yeah, so you've got this real, like, will you be 100%? My first question would be to who? Who you wanted me to be 100% obedient to? Because if it's you, you can naff off. But, you know, if it's Christ, maybe, you know, that's. That's a. Easier sell, certainly to my sensibilities, than this idea of, like, are you gonna be 100% obedient? Well, as I've spoken to a few missionaries myself, and having been a missionary, obedience to the rules sometimes can stop you creating a genuine connection with someone. It can stop you actually being an effective missionary. If your goal is to encourage a Christian lifestyle in others, if your goal is to, you know, help people, then following the rules can often be detrimental.

Jonas Jödicke [01:49:40] Totally.

Nemo [01:49:41] I think.

John Dehlin [01:49:42] Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [01:49:42] No.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] Part of what's confusing in Mormonism is the church teaches obedience to God or to the Savior or to the Holy Ghost. But. But God and the Savior and the Holy Ghost aren't really talking to you all. All that's really happening is you're having your leaders tell you what's true. You're being taught doctrine, you're being taught rules, you're being taught theology, and then you're being taught that you. That your feelings are the Holy Ghost, but only if the feelings agree with what the church leaders are teaching you. And so in theory, we're taught to obey God, but in reality, we're taught to obey our priesthood leadership.

Jonas Jödicke [01:50:19] Yeah, yeah.

Nemo [01:50:20] That's why you get all this conflation between Russell M. Nelson and Jesus. Right. He's like, we must follow Jesus Christ through his authorized servants. You're like, oh, I see the caveat. I. I see you there.

John Dehlin [01:50:32] And also, if you're. If. If you are feeling like, wow, I love men, or whoa, I. I shouldn't be on a mission immediately. You tell your church leaders that, and they're most often going to say, well, those are evil, bad feelings. That's Satan. That's bad. You push those feelings down, wait until you get. Wait until you get feelings that tell you to do what we want you to do.

Jonas Jödicke [01:50:55] Basically.

Nemo [01:50:57] I don't want to ruin the movie magic of this. This is all just a very natural conversation. I totally don't have notes that Jonas kindly prepared for me beforehand. I just noticed, having a look at the notes that you kind of left a bit of an artistic career behind. So you're here in your first area in Vetsicon. What could you have been doing? Or what were you doing up until you left on your mission artistically?

Art, Creativity, and Emotional Struggles on the Mission

Jonas Jödicke [01:51:20] Yeah, well, yeah, that was actually a very difficult thing for me to leave on my mission at that particular time, because when I think when I turned 16, it started to, like, my art career started to really take off. People started to ask for commissions, for example, for book covers.

Jonas Jödicke [01:51:38] People started to buy prints of my art. Many of my artworks went viral all around the Internet. And I started to really have, like, a bigger and bigger following on social media. And when I was 18, I was basically already kind of making a living as an artist, even though I wasn't really doing it full time, because I was also still a student at school, But I was already earning my money. I also funded my mission partly with the money that I earned from being an artist.

Jonas Jödicke [01:52:04] And it was kind of like at the peak of my early art career that I decided to go on a mission. So I decided to kind of leave all that behind. And it was very, very difficult for me because I. I just felt like. Like, what if people forget about me after these two years? What if the following that I had amassed, like, what would.

Jonas Jödicke [01:52:25] What would happen if they just unfollowed me or didn't care about me anymore or whatever? And I. I also remember that my dad was just like, no, I think leaving it behind. Like, you are really showing to God that you care about this work. Like, you are sacrificing a lot, and he will bless you when you come back. I think that's just the thought that I kind of tried to hold on to. I was like, okay, that's what I'm gonna just believe. Because otherwise, I might have not left. I think I was very. Because my art meant everything to me. Like, it was just so. Just gave me so much empowerment and made me feel like I am someone in a way.

Nemo [01:53:02] Yeah, no, I totally get that. So that's hard to leave behind. Sorry, John, what were you gonna say?

John Dehlin [01:53:07] Just that sociologists have. Have told us now that the more you would think that the easier you make a religion on a person, maybe the more committed they'd be because the. The requirements are low. But one of the most bizarre and troubling parts about religion is the more you sacrifice for your religion, oddly, the more devoted you become to your religion.

Nemo [01:53:33] I wonder whether it's connected to, like, sunk cost fallacy, this idea. That's all.

John Dehlin [01:53:38] Yeah, those are all connected. But, yeah, when you sacrifice for something, you end up loving it more. You know, like a parent sacrifices for their kids. That's. That's an important part of a parent loving their kids more. And so you. Weirdly, Jonas, you sacrificing your. Your art career early for your religion might have even made you feel more committed to it.

Jonas Jödicke [01:54:02] Yeah, totally. No, because I felt like now I really had to Give it my all because I left this big thing behind that meant a lot to me. And I don't want to just waste this time now. I want to, like, really dig into it and be the best, to be worth it.

Nemo [01:54:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] Makes sense.

Nemo [01:54:20] Okay. So were you. What was your first companion like? How was his German?

Jonas Jödicke [01:54:28] His German was surprisingly good. So he was from the Netherlands. And we didn't really get along that well in the beginning because it was super difficult for me to be there on the mission. Suddenly, like, suddenly just all became true. Because I think before that, it was still kind of just like this romanticized version of what a mission would be like. I pictured it like just being out there and serving people and great time and having lots of free time and stuff. But once I arrived at the mission and had the little white handbook with all the rules and like the schedule for your day, I mean, missionaries get up at 6:30 in the morning, go to bed at 10:30, and basically every single hour they have something planned.

Jonas Jödicke [01:55:12] Like, there's never any free time. There are no free days where you can just do what you want. There's P day preparation day on Monday, but it's not really a free day because you have to prepare, prepare for the week and go buy groceries and do all these things.

Jonas Jödicke [01:55:27] So suddenly I just was thrown into this totally different world, and I had to talk to people on the street, approach them. I always felt like a Jehovah's Witness because I was like, so uncomfortable just going to people and kind of stopping them from what they were doing. I felt so intrusive.

Jonas Jödicke [01:55:48] So especially also, I think because my trainer, he's actually a really, really nice and kind guy. Especially now looking back at it, he. He really tried his best. He was a great missionary in that sense. But he had a very different approach, I think, to how I wanted to do missionary work. He was very, very straightforward with people. He was, in my view, a bit robotic. I would even, like, confront him with that. I would be like, sometimes you seem like a robot to me. Because he would just go to people on the street, even if they were like, I don't know, like on the other side of the street.

Jonas Jödicke [01:56:23] And we were walking a certain direction and had a goal in mind where we wanted to go, but he would just kind of cross the street and walk towards them and approach them like, they had also taught at the ntc. So in a way he was doing the right thing.

Jonas Jödicke [01:56:37] But I just felt so weird sometimes. I, like, stood. I don't like, 10, 20 meters away from him, because I would kind of notice when he wanted to talk to someone because he would make, like, little noise, something like.

Jonas Jödicke [01:56:49] I was like, okay, I think he's gonna talk to someone. And I was like, I just felt so uncomfortable, so I would just wait where I was standing, and I would just watch him from afar, because I was like, I'm not gonna be involved in that. I just can't.

Jonas Jödicke [01:57:01] Okay. So I think he was also really struggling with me because I was not the best trainee in that sense. Right. He would also, like, on the train, for example, he would kind of sit next to someone and talk to them, talk to the person on the train. And he would also do it in such a. Such an unnatural way. Like, we were told to maybe ask people about something that they were wearing and then kind of start a conversation like that, and then get into the church stuff. And he would do that, but in a very, like, formulaic, like, formula kind of way. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, necklace you're wearing.

Jonas Jödicke [01:57:39] Did you make that yourself? And the person would be like, no, why are you asking? And then he would be like, well, I'm actually a missionary of the Church of Jesus Christ. Not a very natural way to approach people. And then if they weren't interested in the conversation, he would just go to a different person, and everybody would see that on the train, and he would just talk to someone else. So I was just, like, so embarrassed all the time and just kind of watched it from afar because I didn't want to get involved in that.

Nemo [01:58:08] There's a visual representation here of you and your first companion, John, if you throw this up. There you go. We got both here. We've got the Dutch Book of Mormon. We've got Jonas here, the Gem Book of Mormon. And so when this one goes flying off to see someone, Jonas just stays here. Not sure what's going on. For the visual audience, train contacting is so awkward. This idea that you're just. You're in a confined space, people can't really get away from you, and you're just bothering them. What was your approach to train contacting?

Jonas Jödicke [01:58:42] Well, the first couple of months, I rarely did it. I mean, I tried it a couple times because I was like, okay, everybody keeps saying that we have to do it. So I tried it a couple times, and usually I would try to start some conversation about, like, a mundane kind of thing, but then wait for them to start asking questions because obviously we were dressed differently. We were wearing the little name tag and stuff. So I would just wait for Them to ask me why I had this name tag and what I was doing. And then I would try to get into the conversation about the church that way.

Jonas Jödicke [01:59:15] But I always felt super uncomfortable doing it. And also for me, I was very, very tired all the time in the beginning of our mission. I think just because of the physical work, like just walking through Switzerland, which is also, like, they have many mountains, so oftentimes you would have to, like, walk uphill somewhere.

Jonas Jödicke [01:59:36] And then also just like being around all the, like all day and visiting people and teaching lessons and doing all these things. I was just so tired all the time. And being on the train or on the bus usually was the only time that felt like a me kind of time for me.

Jonas Jödicke [01:59:52] So in the beginning, I would just tell myself, like, this is just my time. I'm just gonna sit in the bus or train and just gonna enjoy the view, which was very beautiful in Switzerland, and just try to relax a little bit. But, yeah, I tried it.

Nemo [02:00:05] The mission is designed to not give you free time. It's to not give you any off time. Because if it can keep you. If the church can keep you 100% tired and working, it makes it easier to break you down and mold you, essentially. Deprivation of sleep is a huge one and exhaustion is a huge one in making someone pliable and easy to. Yeah, to make as you want. So, you know, this idea of your own time. I'm glad you had that. Because a lot of people don't have any sort of feeling that they have any of their own time at all.

Jonas Jödicke [02:00:44] Yeah. It was also very difficult for me in general to be around someone all the time because I'm a quite introvert person. So I love having my private time just for myself to recharge. And also I'm quite sensitive to noises. I have, like, a condition called misophonia, which basically means that some noises kind of trigger me and make me a bit angry inside and kind of obstacle upset me.

Jonas Jödicke [02:01:11] And especially human noises. It's. It's not with everyone, but it's. Especially when I'm in a very confined place with someone. And then if someone starts to, like, eat really loudly or breathe super loudly or whatever. I know that people can't control these things. It's not like I hate them for it, but it's just like my mind perceive these things.

Jonas Jödicke [02:01:31] Like, they just become so much louder in my mind and I can't focus on anything else. And that was like a very, very difficult thing for me because with most of my companions, I had some trigger Sounds that made it very difficult to. For me to be with them 24 7. So I had to wear earplugs sometimes with some companions when we were at home because otherwise I would just constantly be stressed and angry.

John Dehlin [02:01:53] I have that.

Nemo [02:01:55] Oh yeah. That's why John doesn't like spending time with me.

John Dehlin [02:02:00] No, it doesn't bug me a lot these days. But like, yeah, chewing, chewing loudly, crunching ice. For some people, chewing gum is a really big deal, but those things can be a really big deal. Yeah, I think it's gotten less of a big deal for me over time. I think it bothered me a lot more when I was younger.

Jonas Jödicke [02:02:20] Yeah, it's. I think it's also very much connected to stress, at least for me. Like, like whenever I'm really stressed, I think my misophonia gets much worse. And on the mission I was constantly stressed basically.

Nemo [02:02:31] Like, again, it's a high stress environment.

Jonas Jödicke [02:02:35] Yeah, totally. I remember like in the beginning of a mission, most of the nights I was kind of just crying myself to sleep because I just wanted to go home, just wanted to continue doing my art and not follow all these arbitrary rules and do things that I wasn't comfortable doing. I still was struggling with my testimony a lot. I still didn't really feel like I knew the church was true.

Jonas Jödicke [02:02:58] So what I would do in lessons when we were teaching people who wanted to know more about the church or in lessons with members and stuff, I would usually say I believe or I hope the church is true, but I would not say I know the church is true because I just didn't feel like that would be an honest statement.

Jonas Jödicke [02:03:15] And my companion would say to me, like, hey, usually when we bear testimony, we say, I know that this is true, but I feel like I can't say that it's. It wouldn't be honest. It would be like lying to people and I don't want to do that.

Nemo [02:03:29] That's fair

John Dehlin [02:03:32] to that.

Nemo [02:03:35] And this, this idea that you almost aren't being honest with people and yet honesty is such a huge valued thing in the LDS Church, I think can create some real sort of dissonance, I guess, because, you know, you want to be honest, but there's this inclination not to be.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] Yeah, it's a real pickle. Because again, going back to Moroni's promise, we're all promised that we'll receive this witness, especially if we read the Book of Mormon. But then when we don't, we're all pressured to go on a mission.

John Dehlin [02:04:06] So we go on a mission to please our family and our friends and to obey what we think is what God wants us to do, but we don't know for sure if we know it's true. But then we're. As a missionary, you're supposed to exude confidence, and you're supposed to be asking other people to join. And if you're just, like, bearing testimony, saying, well, I'm not sure the church is true, but I kind of like it, and, you know, it works for me, so get baptized. That's not a really compelling sell. So there's this pressure on the mission to be able to speak with certitude, to speak with knowledge, even if you don't have it.

John Dehlin [02:04:43] But then you're supposed to be honest and not lie. And it. You know, usually what we're all taught to do is fake it till you make it. That's a statement from the United States. But a more gospel way to say that would be you gain a testimony by burying it.

Jonas Jödicke [02:04:59] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:05:00] That's downmate jokes from a faithful perspective just means, you know, have that act with an act with faith. Say you say you know it's true, and then eventually the spirit will confirm it. What a more cynical view of that would be lie to yourself until you're able to convince yourself that you believe it's true, when really you don't know it's true.

Jonas Jödicke [02:05:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:23] Is that. Does that relate. Jonas, I don't mean to put words in your mouth.

Jonas Jödicke [02:05:26] No, totally. I was. I was going to say the exact same thing because that's what my trainer also told me and other missionaries. They were like, well, the prophets have told us to bear a testimony, and that is the way that we find a testimony. So, yeah, that's exactly what I started doing. At some point I was like, okay, I don't really know. But then I had some spiritual experiences. For example, I remember one time we had a finding day, which was when the whole district of missionaries came together, and we all tried to, like, we swapped companions, and then we would talk to lots of people on the streets and stuff and try to find as many new people to teach as possible.

Jonas Jödicke [02:06:01] And I was with our district leader. And that day I told myself that I'm going to try to really, really do it. Like, because. Because before that, like I said earlier, I kind of always just watched my companion do stuff, and I never really wanted to get into it. But then on that finding day, I was like, okay, I'm going to give it a try and I'm going to just go for it. And I talked to many people. And I felt really good about myself after that, because I think before that, I had beaten myself down so much about not being a good missionary. And then suddenly I felt like, wow, I can actually do this.

Jonas Jödicke [02:06:33] I can talk to people and they listen to me. And we had some success. And I interpreted that good feeling of, like, feeling good about myself as the Spirit confirming to me that what I was doing was the right thing and that the message we were sharing is true.

Jonas Jödicke [02:06:49] So, yeah, that's how I think. With these kind of small experiences I had on a mission, my testimony of the church became stronger and stronger, and I started to really get much more into that kind of mindset.

John Dehlin [02:07:05] So it kind of worked. It kind of worked. You're saying that you. You maybe became convinced that you. That you had a testimony?

Jonas Jödicke [02:07:14] Yeah, totally. And. And usually I would also still try to just bear testimony about the things that I was very convinced of. Like, I was very convinced of the power of love. I was very convinced that Jesus is real and that his atonement is real, that he can really strengthen us, that prayer works, and all these kind of things. Like, I tried to testify about these principles, but then later on, I also started to feel like, okay, well, I have learned all these things in the context of this church, so it has good fruit, so it must be true. So I started also bearing testimony of the church and that the restoration is true.

Jonas Jödicke [02:07:54] I also remember that one time as a mission, we watched a newer Joseph Smith movie, like, with, like, a newer kind of interpretation of it that's very emotional, with very good music and stuff like that. And I remember crying watching it, because I was so moved by the whole story. I mean, now I know that it was a very whitewashed and sanitized version of the actual story, but at that time, it really worked on me, and I really felt super emotional. But I was like, wow.

John Dehlin [02:08:22] Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [02:08:22] Like, I can relate to so much of what he's doing. He just tried to bring the right thing to people, but they were rejecting him. Kind of like people were rejecting us missionaries all the time. So I related to a lot of these things, and I felt like that was my testimony. Like, the experience where I found my testimony of Joseph Smith and the restoration.

Nemo [02:08:41] It's amazing that the church can convince you that the way to know you're on the right track is if people are telling you you're wrong. That's incredible. Most of our lives, we rely on the opinions of those around us, or we rely on social feedback to know whether we're on the right track or not. But the church manages to convince us somehow that if everyone's slamming doors in your faces, that means you're onto something. I don't know how that works.

Jonas Jödicke [02:09:11] Yeah. That's also something I always told myself or heard from other people. It was like, why would so many people be so adversarial against the church and try to work so much against it if it wasn't true? Nobody would care about it if it wasn't true. The fact that people are so against the church is a testimony of its truthfulness. Because Satan is trying to work against it.

John Dehlin [02:09:36] Yeah. The house always wins if people. If people convert to the church, then the church is true. And if people hate the church and persecute the church, then the church is true, because that's evidence that Satan's working against the church. So there's this idea that the church always wins in the way that we are taught to think about the church.

Jonas Jödicke [02:09:59] Yeah. And I mean, by that logic, the Church of Scientology and the Jehovah's Witnesses would also be true because they are also very hated by people. So it's like Islam is definitely true.

Nemo [02:10:10] Islamophobia is rampant, so therefore it's true.

Jonas Jödicke [02:10:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:18] Sinister hug is. It's just confirmation bias. It's a human thing. It's not just a Mormon thing. It's a human thing.

Jonas Jödicke [02:10:25] Yeah.

Nemo [02:10:26] And so I want to ask you about your relationship with your sister. Did she write to you on your mission, how you know your older sister, who was being a bit of a wild child, as you might say?

Jonas Jödicke [02:10:37] Yeah.

Nemo [02:10:38] How's your relationship?

Jonas Jödicke [02:10:41] So before the mission, like. Like I mentioned earlier, we both really started to build our artist career together. She also started to upload her stuff on the Internet. She also became much more known on the Internet. And during my mission, she actually started to freelance, and she was very successful with it. And.

Jonas Jödicke [02:10:59] And we had always been very close with each other. I was also very close with my other siblings, but I think with my older sister, we just shared also the artist connection at that time. And when I was on my mission, she also kind of stepped. Started to step away from the church. She didn't really attend anymore. She went inactive. And I was very sad about it. And then she also started to.

Jonas Jödicke [02:11:23] Not. Well, she stopped writing to me on my mission as well. Like, she didn't really write me any emails or letters like most of my other siblings and my parents did. And I was super sad at that time because I felt like she forgot about me or maybe she didn't really want to support me. But now, in hindsight, I know. And also having talked to her after the mission, I know that she felt super unworthy of being in contact with me, because in my emails, I would tell my family about these spiritual experiences and about really, like, digging into the church and reading the scriptures and gaining a testimony of it and all these things.

Jonas Jödicke [02:12:00] And I think she just felt like she didn't fit in with that. Like she couldn't really connect to that experience. So she felt like I might not view her the same way that I viewed her before my mission. And I think that's why she stopped writing to me, because she just felt ashamed of herself.

Nemo [02:12:16] Yeah. To think about that, it is really sad. I think missionaries are encouraged to write in a certain way to essentially reinforce their own position as missionaries, but also then to try and influence others. One of the reasons a very prominent Sabbath day activity is writing to missionaries, I think, is because then what it does that exposes members to that kind of fervor and zeal that missionaries are encouraged to have. So missionaries essentially get to proselytize to their own family on a weekly basis, and the family are encouraged to engage with that. So I feel like your sister would probably would have been feeling quite uncomfortable about that as well, because it didn't align with her views as much as she was concerned about you, I would say definitely.

Jonas Jödicke [02:13:02] And yeah, well, that made me very sad, of course. Actually, my other sister, so the second oldest sister, she also went on her mission at the same time as me. She went to the uk, actually to the Leeds Mission.

Jonas Jödicke [02:13:20] And she and I, we wrote each other letters every single week because we were both really depressed. Actually. Her mission started out really great, I think, for the first two transfers or so, but then from that point on, it kind of gradually became worse and worse. For me, it was a bit the other way around. For me, it started horribly, but then it kind of got better in a way. But still, like, we both had lots of phases where we were really, really depressed. And so the letters that we wrote each other were the only thing really we looked forward to each week being able to open the letter.

Jonas Jödicke [02:13:54] And we would also draw little pictures inside the letter where we would draw ourselves. I actually have a letter here where I can show you. So we would. This is her. Like, this is how she felt.

Nemo [02:14:08] Oh, wow.

Jonas Jödicke [02:14:10] Like, super tired and just worn out. And, like, we would always draw these funny pictures of, like, things that were happening, like, that we experienced.

Nemo [02:14:18] Oh, wow.

Jonas Jödicke [02:14:18] Trying to cheer each other up. That was like, a great way of keeping in contact with my family. I mean, it's also funny now thinking about that we were writing each other letters, because nowadays nobody really does that anymore. But I actually really loved that part of. I loved writing letters to people. And it's kind of unconventional, but it was like a cool, analog.

Nemo [02:14:43] I'm with you. I wrote conventional letters on my mission as well, to my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife. So it worked. But, yeah, I sent analog, conventional letters. I think it's cool. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] And I'm so old. I'm as old as dirt that I served a mission before the Internet.

Nemo [02:15:03] John sent telegrams, so his family would be like, there's a telegram here for you from your son.

Jonas Jödicke [02:15:09] Smoke signs.

Nemo [02:15:12] John's lit the beacon again. He's calling for aid. Right, okay. So your first companion didn't really get on great with him. He was a bit too zealous. What about your second companion?

Jonas Jödicke [02:15:26] Yeah, so after that first experience, I had a companion from the US and he was actually very laid back. He was very. He was also, like, at the end of his mission, and in missionary language, we would say he was trunky, which means that he was kind of.

Jonas Jödicke [02:15:48] Kind of tired of being a missionary, I guess, and just ready to go home. So I had. I served with him for his last two transfers, and he didn't really care about the rules as much. I mean, my first companion was very, very zealous with the rules. I remember, for example, one time on a p day, it was super hot outside, and we went hiking in a forest, and I just wanted to dip my feet into a river to kind of cool myself off a little bit. And he was like, no, no, no, you can't do that. That's against the mission rules that we can't come go into any body of water, because that's kind of where the devil reigns.

Jonas Jödicke [02:16:24] And also, that's not what a disciple of Christ would do. Like, we represent the church, and we can't do that. And I was like, I just want to dip my feet into some water on a hot day. Like, that's really. I mean, Jesus walked around in sandals or without any shoes. Yeah, that's like. It just. Yeah, like, these kind of things.

John Dehlin [02:16:40] Jesus freaking walked on water. Jesus walked on water.

Jonas Jödicke [02:16:43] Exactly.

Nemo [02:16:45] We've learned that Jesus's behavior is. We've learned from the haircutting incident, Jesus's behavior, his personal styling choices. None of that has any bearing on how modern Mormons are allowed to behave.

John Dehlin [02:16:56] He's drinking wine. Like, Jesus did it all Wrong, you

Nemo [02:16:59] know, condemning, accruing massive wealth. We're not meant to do that anymore either. We're not meant to condemn overzealous fallacy Pharisees for, you know, taking religion too literally. We're not allowed to do any of the stuff he did. We just gotta get down to it and work hard. Jonas. Sorry.

Jonas Jödicke [02:17:15] Yeah, it's. No, but it's true. Like there were all these things, all these little rules that to me just didn't make any sense. I just felt super. I like, I was like, why are we so caught up in these small things while it's just about like loving people and lifting them up and stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [02:17:33] But yeah, my second companion, he was. He was the complete opposite of my first companion. He was very relaxed about everything. And we kind of started to approach missionary work in a different way. We wanted to really work with the members in our ward, which were super great. I like, that was also one one of the parts of my mission early on that really saved me. Like, the members, we would spend lots of time with them and I don't know, like just having spiritual thoughts at their homes and eating together with them or then also like inviting friends of them and having lessons with them and stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [02:18:11] But yeah, we would try to really work with the members. And we did something a lot that was called in our mission a personal touch, which was basically leaving like a small sign of appreciation or like a small gift at members places. And what we would do is that we used our language study time because we didn't really have to study any other language. I mean, I could have studied English, but my English was quite good at that time, so I didn't really need to study it a lot. So we used that time to draw because he was also actually interested in art. And we drew lots of pictures of Christ.

Jonas Jödicke [02:18:47] Like we copied these paintings of the church and drew them in pencil and stuff. And then we would bring them to members and write on the back a small message of Christ loves you and he would love for you also to reach out to people and spread the gospel and share it with them and stuff. So we really tried to like encourage the members to work with us very closely. And yeah, just did these kind of things, which I loved. Like, that was actually. That were two transfers that for me were much better compared to my first two transfers.

Nemo [02:19:19] That's excellent. Sorry, I've just noticed sat on my desk, I've got a copy of Preach My Gospel here. And I can't help but notice that Jesus is stood in a body of water on the front cover. And, you know, missionaries don't twig on that. But yeah, there he is. Okay. Any other notable companions from your mission? Anyone that's important to your story at all?

Companions, Connections, and a Secret Crush

Jonas Jödicke [02:19:41] Yeah, so my third companion was my trainee. So I started to train in my fifth transfer. He was from Trinidad and Tobago and he. He was black, which is important for one story because. So he came to Switzerland. He didn't speak German, of course. He had to really learn it, and it was very difficult for him in the beginning. And I tried to also have a very laid back approach with him to missionary work. I kind of wanted to give him the exact opposite of a trainee experience that I have had. Like, I tried to be very laid back and very relaxed and just focus on love and all these things.

Nemo [02:20:25] And.

Jonas Jödicke [02:20:28] And then one time we were at an older member's house, so it was him and his wife, and they were, I think 70 or older. And we had dinner with them. And then the, the guy, the. The men at the households started to ask us questions. And then he asked my companion a question which I had to translate into German. And what he asked was, I'm not going to use the actual word, but he said, so what is it like as an N? He used the N word. Like the racial. What is it like? Is that in the church? Like, what has your experience been? Or something like that?

Nemo [02:21:12] And I was translated that from German to English.

Jonas Jödicke [02:21:15] I had to translate that, but I didn't. I just asked him, so what has your experience been being like a new missionary here in this mission? Like, what has it been for you? And then he was, oh, it's been great so far and stuff. So you didn't really, like. I didn't give him the actual question because I was just so offended by the question. And it just made me realize also how, how racism is still very alive and well, especially I think, in older generations. But yeah, that was quite a remarkable experience also, just seeing that. Mm.

Nemo [02:21:47] That's. Yeah, it's still there. It's still baked in to some members, you know. And the thing that I think often gets forgotten is that when the priesthood ban was lifted, it wasn't this celebration amongst all members. There were members of the church who were upset by it. There were members of the church, I believe, that left because of it. Yeah, right. It wasn't this. Oh, we've all been waiting, finally. Thank you. It's like this was a controversial thing and it will, it will be the same as. And when, because I believe it Will be a. When, not an. If the church begins to accept homosexual members, when it begins to accept gay members, people will leave. People will leave because of it, because it will offend them.

Jonas Jödicke [02:22:27] Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, it gets very much baked into the church in scriptures and everywhere. It's just. You can't deny that the church is built on racist doctrines.

Nemo [02:22:40] No, still in, it's still in the Book of Mormon now. Second Nephi 225. Yeah, still racist. Always has been, and it continues to be. So I, you almost can't blame that guy for, for being like that, but at the same time, you very much can because he should know better.

Jonas Jödicke [02:22:58] Yeah, I, I, yeah, I think, I think, I think in his mind he was not even saying anything that was off offensive or could be, could come off as like hateful or something. I think he, he genuinely just thought that this is what you call black people. But it's, yeah, it's kind of crazy

Nemo [02:23:18] because there's actually nothing wrong with the question in and of itself, is there? There's nothing wrong with asking a black member of the church what has your experience been like as a black member of the church? It's actually quite a good question to ask in some ways, yeah. If done well, but clearly wasn't. So how else did you get on with this companion? How else did he influence your mission?

Jonas Jödicke [02:23:39] We got along really well. And I don't really remember if it was with him or the companion that I had before him, but there was one remarkable experience also. So we taught someone. We found someone on the street, a guy that was maybe around 30 that was very interested in our message. And from the very beginning, from, from when we first talked to him, it was very obvious that he had some kind of impairment. Like he couldn't speak that well with us. I mean, he could speak, but it was like he just had trouble sometimes expressing himself in some certain ways. But we still felt like he completely understood everything that we said and stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [02:24:26] And we started meeting him very regularly and he was very much interested. He also read the scripture assignments that we gave him and he did all these things. He started to really progress. And he was the first person really on my mission where I felt like, I think this person is going to get baptized. Because before that we didn't really have any success. It was like we barely had any people to teach. It was usually people who had been taught by the missionaries for years but never made any progress. They just probably wanted some people to talk to because they were lonely and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:25:00] Like that.

Jonas Jödicke [02:25:01] But then this person. We felt like he was really progressing. He was also coming to church. He loved it. The members loved him, and we. So at some point, we wanted to invite him to get baptized, which we did. We asked him, and he was like, yeah, I want to get baptized. And. And then he was like, but actually, I can't decide that by myself. And we were like, oh, okay. Why is that? And. And he told us that he has a legal guardian, which was his mother. Because he had some disability or wasn't.

Nemo [02:25:38] Yeah, learning difficulty.

Jonas Jödicke [02:25:40] Yeah, yeah, learning difficulty. And. And then we're like, okay, well, then can you ask her if that's okay? And he was very nervous to do that. He was like, I think we. I think I'm not gonna ask my mom. I'm just gonna get baptized secretly. And. Yeah, but. But we were like, no, I think if. If she's your legal guardian, I think there is no, like, way around, and I think you have to ask her.

Jonas Jödicke [02:26:07] So she. So he invited her over and asked her. And when she found out that we were at his place, like, even just the moment that she saw us and saw the name tags and everything, she completely lost it and chased us out of the apartment and was super angry, super upset. And that was such a shattering experience for me. Like, at that time, I just felt so sad, like, on one hand, because I really felt like he was, like, destined to be in the church, and he felt like he was progressing so much and loved the church and everything. And then also, because, I don't know, I just felt so ashamed of myself because I had never before experienced that harsh of a rejection.

Jonas Jödicke [02:26:51] I mean, people rejected us all the time. But the way she was upset was just so raw and so, I don't know, like, just such a bad experience for me. But now, as I reflect on it, I totally understand it. I would have totally reacted the same way if I was the legal guardian of someone, especially if it's my son and I know they have a learning. Learning difficulty or something like that. I would totally also be very, very angry and upset if I saw missionaries trying to get this person to be baptized into their church.

Jonas Jödicke [02:27:26] And, yeah, it's just, like, a very weird kind of thing to look back on. And I feel kind of ashamed for even having tried to make him join the church, especially with all the knowledge that I have about the church now. But obviously, at the time, I just cared about him and thought that we were doing something good for him.

Nemo [02:27:49] I think a lot of missionaries who are now in your position have to deal with these kind of feelings of shame and guilt around particularly those who they successfully baptize into the church because you feel a sense of responsibility for bringing someone into an organization that you yourself didn't know the whole truth about.

Nemo [02:28:07] You know, so you weren't knowingly or with malice bringing them into an organization that, you know, had hidden parts of itself from you. You were just as much a victim in that sense of a lack of informed consent.

Nemo [02:28:22] But you weren't able to provide those people with full informed consent either. And so I know a lot of return missionaries who wrestle with that. Yeah, they wrestle with that feeling because they think, they think, oh well, maybe the investigators should have done their own research.

Nemo [02:28:41] But you know, as sure as anything that as a missionary you told them not to look anywhere, not to trust people, other, other things that they heard about the church because it's anti Mormon lies, you know. Yeah, it's a difficult one. It's a difficult set of things.

Jonas Jödicke [02:28:58] That's definitely one of the things I'm most angry about, just the fact that I got this very sanitized, very whitewashed version of church history and how the church was founded and was taught that in preach my gospel and in preparation for the mission in the MTC and everywhere and gave that along to people and taught them these lies basically. Or a story that has so many holes in it and so many inaccuracies and it just feels like abuse in a way. Like it felt like I was abused and became part of the system that just sucks people in with a fake version of their own history.

Nemo [02:29:39] Yeah, yeah, it's not good. Okay, so your second area, where was your second area?

Jonas Jödicke [02:29:48] My second area was Interlaken, which is right in Bernard Oberland, which is kind of between the mountains. It's a very, very beautiful area. Everybody was very envious when I told them that I was going to serve there. And I actually became a district leader there as well. So I kind of had responsibility over some other missionaries in the area and. Yeah.

Nemo [02:30:11] Climbing the corporate Mormon ladder. Yeah, yeah, kind of. Okay. And so what was it, what was it like there?

Jonas Jödicke [02:30:19] It was. So being a district leader was a really cool experience for me because I again, I tried to approach it in a very non authentic, authoritarian way. And because before that I, for example, I hated having like the weekly call where you had to report to your district leader and tell him or him your numbers. But you would have to tell him how many lessons you taught this past week, how many new investigators you found, how many baptisms you had. And stuff like that. And just in general also on district meetings and zone meetings and everywhere, it always felt like there was such a high.

Jonas Jödicke [02:30:57] High. What's the word? Emphasis on numbers. Like, numbers were so important. It always felt like the mission was kind of led, like a business that we also had, like, a standard of excellence in the mission. It was kind of like if you reach those numbers per week, that meant that you were one of the really great missionaries or whatever. And I always felt like, for me, it felt like such a weird approach to missionary work, because I thought that God and Jesus were at the. At the helm of this work. And if we just tried our best and tried to be really in tune with the spirit and try to really love people and just do the best that we could, that they would lead us to the people that were prepared and that we would find those that would accept the gospel ultimately.

Jonas Jödicke [02:31:47] So I felt like, why would we even have this business approach if we can just really focus on having a strong connection to God and try to be led by him to. To those who are prepared? So that's kind of the approach that I had as a district leader. I had, like, a little motto for the district, which was, nourish the roots and you'll get the fruits, which is, like, nourish your testimony and your relationship with God. And that's how you're going to automatically find success as a missionary.

Jonas Jödicke [02:32:16] And whenever they had to report the numbers every week, I tried to make sure, for example, like, sometimes some missionaries didn't have any lesson the whole week, and they didn't have any investigators and stuff like that. And I would still just be like, hey, that's totally okay. You tried your very best. I'm proud of you. God is proud of you. Thank you for serving. And I think, in a way, I think everybody in the district loved that, and it kind of really motivated everyone to just try their best.

John Dehlin [02:32:47] Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [02:32:48] And I think we were quite successful as a district, actually, later on, because I think everybody was really motivated just to. To really give their all in the work.

Nemo [02:32:59] Okay. So I. I want to make sure that. Because again, my secret notes, there's. There's a. There's a companion. I really want you to tell us about who I believe is in this area. So if you could tell us about that and then just summarize any other things you think are really important about your mission, because we want to get to the artwork. Jonas, everyone's so excited for your artwork.

Jonas Jödicke [02:33:23] Okay. Yeah. So in. In that area, there was a missionary that I served with my companion that I developed a crush on. And it was very, very difficult for me to come to terms with that. It was just super weird to live together, feel like I had this crush on him, and at the same time go out to people and teach them that the only way into heaven was to have a heterosexual marriage and have a family and stuff like that. I mean, nothing ever happened between us, but there was just this constant tension and this constant feeling of, yeah, I was basically in love with him in some sense.

Jonas Jödicke [02:34:11] And we also got really close to each other. We just shared a lot about our lives and became really, really good friends. But, yeah, it was super, super difficult. And on one hand, I felt very bad about it. And I also went to the temple a lot because we could go to the temple every transfer.

Jonas Jödicke [02:34:30] And I always prayed to God and asked him to take those feelings away from me because I felt really dirty. But then on the other hand, I also felt like I had never really felt this way before with any of the girls that I had met before my mission. And I was like, why is this a bad thing? It actually feels really good. It feels very natural to me, and it feels very.

Jonas Jödicke [02:34:51] Just like a wonderful feeling, having these butterflies in my stomach and all these things that I had never had before. So it was a very weird situation. Like, both things were true at the same time. Felt bad about it, and I felt really good. And like it was just like a normal, good, natural thing.

John Dehlin [02:35:09] So is this the first time you had really fallen for anyone, male or female?

Jonas Jödicke [02:35:15] I. I mean, I had. I had also had crushes before my mission, but I think I had never really been so close with someone before. Because when you're companions, you really share a lot with each other. Like, when you go to bed at night, you talk sometimes for hours and just share so many personal things. And I think that closeness, that's like emotional intimacy, in a way, I think made it much more intensive than anything I had experienced before.

Nemo [02:35:43] Yeah, because it's like you're cohabitating in a way that the LDS Church would never let you do with a female. But for a gay man like yourself, then you're in a situation where you could become very emotionally close to someone and develop feelings for someone. And the church, I think, in part because of its internalized homophobia, is completely blind to that possibility. Or if they're aware of it happening, they're certainly trying to turn a blind eye to it because it's a situation they're creating.

Jonas Jödicke [02:36:14] Totally. Yeah. I think it happens Much more often than people would assume.

Nemo [02:36:21] Yeah. Because you're going to become emotionally close to someone anyway. Being with them constantly 24 hours a day, the only break you get from them is when you go to the bathroom. Right. So you're gonna get emotionally close to anyone you spend that amount of time with, and then you throw in your feelings for him into the mix, and that's a recipe for falling for someone essentially. Totally.

Jonas Jödicke [02:36:44] Yeah. Maybe the church thinks that as missionaries, we're just so focused on the work and so righteous and blessed with the spirit that we don't even think about these kinds of things. But it's just natural and normal. Like when you're together with someone 247 who you are attracted to, of course you will have thoughts and feelings and all these kind of things. It's just. And it's very difficult to deal with it if you feel this constant tension.

John Dehlin [02:37:08] Jonas, did you ever have a sense that this companion felt similar things towards you and then whether or not how did you and. Or he deal with these feelings?

Jonas Jödicke [02:37:20] Yeah. Yeah. That's a really great question. I was thinking about it before this interview, and I think I'm not super comfortable talking about it just because I want to kind of protect him in a way.

John Dehlin [02:37:33] No problem. That's a very good answer.

Jonas Jödicke [02:37:35] Yeah. Just because I. I didn't have the chance to ask him if he was comfortable sharing anything or whatever. So.

Nemo [02:37:43] Totally fine. Totally fine.

John Dehlin [02:37:45] Thanks.

Nemo [02:37:45] Okay, so anything else about your mission that you feel like is. Is going to propel us into exploring your stardom as an artist?

Jonas Jödicke [02:37:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:37:54] And also your faith journey. So.

Nemo [02:37:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:56] Anything else about your mission that would have impact that was important to you, that was really positive, that was really negative, and that will end up impacting your faith journey or your. Your ultimate career?

Jonas Jödicke [02:38:07] Yeah. Yeah. I think that two important things, maybe. First, about my faith. Faith journey. So, like I mentioned, I. My testimony grew stronger and stronger over the course, of course, of my mission. But there was always one thing that I really struggled with, which was the temple.

Jonas Jödicke [02:38:26] So before my mission, I had gone to the endowment ceremony, which is something that every LDS person does before they go on a mission or before they marry. And it's a ceremony in the temple that to most people is very different and kind of weird compared to the other things you do at church.

Jonas Jödicke [02:38:47] And for me, it was super, super difficult. Also, when I went to the endowment the first time, I remember I was just sitting there and just felt like, this feels like a cult. Like this is such a cult experience, especially when everyone Got up and, like, in the prayer circle and everybody was speaking at the same time saying this prayer. And then also all the clothing, the. The baker's head, hat or whatever. And also the movie that we were watching, we also watched the old film, which was kind of weird, like, the way that Jesus and God were acting and stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [02:39:20] And I just felt very, very, very uncomfortable the whole experience. And I remember sitting in the celestial room after the ceremony was over and just praying to God and being like, I don't feel like this is actually your work, I don't think. This doesn't feel like you. This doesn't feel like the God that I had felt through my entire life, which was just love and acceptance and all these things. Suddenly there was this. This God that was portrayed to me that cared about all these small rules. And I don't know the scene with Satan where he was like, if you don't follow all these rules and commandments, you will be in my power.

Jonas Jödicke [02:39:57] And, like, all these small things just make me feel very, very uncomfortable. And on my mission, I still really struggled with that because we. Like I mentioned we could go to the temple. Every single transfer and every single time I went to the endowment, I just felt. Felt very, very uncomfortable and felt like it wasn't inspired by God.

Jonas Jödicke [02:40:18] So that was always, like, a huge shelf item for me. Even throughout my mission. Even though my testimony otherwise was very strong, I felt off about the temple.

Nemo [02:40:29] I mean, God sounds a lot like one of my favorite German kind of. I call my friend Disaffection. He sounds a bit like an Epsom sailor, Like a bit of a pea counter, you know?

Jonas Jödicke [02:40:42] Yeah.

Nemo [02:40:42] It always comes across as very nitpicky, Right?

Jonas Jödicke [02:40:45] Totally. Yeah. Like, why. Why would he care about us wearing this special clothing and doing all these weird rituals in the temple if we don't even understand it? If even the prophets say they don't really understand it. I think there's a quote by God Behinki who said even at the end of his life, he was still not fully understanding the temple. Experience. Experience. I'm like, why?

Nemo [02:41:08] I got told that. Yeah, but exactly why? He's a prophet. Like, he's seen Jesus. He can just ask the questions. Why does he not get it?

Jonas Jödicke [02:41:18] Yeah, exactly. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:41:23] No, please,

Jonas Jödicke [02:41:26] no, you can go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:41:28] What's confusing about that is, you know, we know Joseph Smith was a Mason before he implemented the temple ceremony, that he basically imported the Masonic Temple ceremony into the Mormon Temple ceremony, told us it was Revelation, and then left that with us after he died. And so we've got, you know, almost between 100 and 200 years of this weird ritual that we all were left with.

John Dehlin [02:41:57] And the church has tried to preserve it over time, but as it has not aged well, to the point where some of the stuff I did, the slitting the throat, the cutting out, the hand motions to cut out the heart, the hand motions of disemboweling myself, along with the kind of pele El chant which was really creepy. You'd have to go to YouTube to watch the old temple ceremony. It became so disturbing to modern sensibilities that the church had to remove those things while still maintaining the position that it was revelation all along.

John Dehlin [02:42:38] And. And so that's what we're all left with. And so when people die feeling like they were never comfortable with. Well, first of all, overwhelmingly on Mormon Stories podcast, the overwhelming sort of summary of what people's experience, you know, has. Experiences have been with the Mormon Temple is that it's just troubling, it's just disturbing. It's culty, it's weird, it's fraught. That's what almost every Mormon feels when they go through the temple, but they can't say that.

John Dehlin [02:43:09] And so they. They don't express that. But then. But then over time, the church will make these changes. And then we're left to sort of believe that it was revelation to begin with, but also believe that the changes were also revelation. And then at the end of our days, like Gordon McHinkley, we die, you know, saying, I never quite understood it. And we're supposed to think that that's because it was just so profound and deep that we didn't reach the level of spirituality and sophistication to ever fully get it. But in reality, the reason why we never fully felt good about it is because it was a culty Masonic Temple ceremony that should have probably never been.

Jonas Jödicke [02:43:53] There's.

Nemo [02:43:53] There's nothing to get. Yeah, there's nothing to get. That's all it is. There's nothing to get beyond the very surface level stuff.

Jonas Jödicke [02:44:03] It's very interesting. My stake president, it's kind of a jump into the future. But when I left the church, I had a conversation with him, and I also talked about my temple experience and told him that I felt super weird and it was just like a very culty experience.

Jonas Jödicke [02:44:17] And he said to me, he was like, actually, I felt the same way when I first went to the temple, but because everybody was just sitting there with me, especially also my dad, who I really trusted, I just trusted that this was what God wanted me to do. And I still don't fully understand it, but I just trust. I just have faith that this is the right thing to do. And I think if everybody does that, like, everybody just goes there with their family and the trusted people in their life and just trust that because they do it, it's the right thing to do, then of course, it's kind of like an MLM kind of thing where it just perpetuates itself, even though there's no real substance to it.

Nemo [02:44:55] And I always say this about certainly my temple experience. I know not many endowment rooms have windows in, as far as I'm aware. And, you know, they close the door behind you, they ask if you are willing to undertake these covenants. If not, you may leave. And you know, well, I don't know what the covenants are, so how can I re. Answer that question?

The Temple and a Meaningful Musical Experience

Nemo [02:45:13] And the door gets closed behind you. Your family and friends are around you is a windowless room. The lights go down and you're shown a presentation. And then before you know it, you're making promises in front of God, angels and these witnesses is the specific wording. So there's the pressure from God. Angels don't know where they came from, don't know why they're there. And then these witnesses, all your friends and family, all this social pressure. I. I won't rant on this forever, but I think it's an important point to make that there's a coercive element to the temple in that respect.

Jonas Jödicke [02:45:44] Yeah, totally. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:46] And so, Jonas, that. That was not. That was a. Let's just say, a crack in your testimony going to the temple.

Jonas Jödicke [02:45:54] Yeah, that was kind of like a shelf item. I just put it on the shelf. It didn't completely impact my testimony as a whole, but it was always a worry that I had about the temple.

Nemo [02:46:06] And then you said there was a second experience on your mission beyond the temple that you think was really important. Tell us about that.

Jonas Jödicke [02:46:13] Yeah, so that was in my last area. In my last area, I got called to winter tour, which is pretty like a bigger town in Switzerland compared to some of the other cities. And so my entire mission, the first year of my mission, I had always wanted to do something creative, like a creative approach to missionary work. I had some little opportunities here and there, like the personal touch, things where we gave artworks to members and stuff like that, but never really anything super out of the box.

Nemo [02:46:47] Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [02:46:48] And I'd always kind of prayed to God. I was always like, please give me the opportunity to do something More creative and stuff like that. And then when I got to my last area to winter tour, the bishop of the ward approached me my first Sunday and came to me, and he was like, elder Utica.

Jonas Jödicke [02:47:05] There is, like, there was a sister or there is a sister who is serving in this ward. And a few weeks ago, she organized something that was kind of like a musical fireside, an event that was very successful. Many people came, they had live music, and they had a, like, little kind of play. Because she used to work for the theater in London before her mission, she was kind of experienced with that, and everybody had really loved it. Like, the members were super excited about it. They had invited lots of their friends. So it had been a huge success. And he asked me to continue that.

Jonas Jödicke [02:47:41] He was like, I really want you to continue this tradition now. And I felt like this was an answer to my prayers. I was like, wow. Like, this is exactly what I asked for. I always wanted to do something creative, and music is also one of my passions. I love to play the piano. I love to sing.

Jonas Jödicke [02:47:58] So I was like, okay, I'm gonna take this. I'm gonna take her concept, but I'm gonna change it a bit and add certain things. So I started to prepare artworks for the musical evening. We kind of centered it around the message of the plan of salvation.

Jonas Jödicke [02:48:16] And I basically illustrated a little story of grandpa and her niece kind of talking about life and the purpose of life. And then they kind of go, like, he goes through the whole plan of salvation, and everything is illustrated with artworks.

Jonas Jödicke [02:48:32] And then there was another missionary in my district who, before his mission had worked in the film industry in Finland. He was really, really good with making animations and filming stuff and things like that. So we kind of got together, and he was like, hey, actually, your illustrations are super cool. I think we could take them and animate them and make them into a small animated film, basically.

Jonas Jödicke [02:48:56] So we asked the bishop and if he can provide us with a computer and a graphic tablet and all these things that we needed. And he organized everything for us. And, yeah, we did the first musical fireside or musical evening, and it was a huge success. Like, right off the bat, I think we had around 300 people attend the first musical evening, which for Switzerland is, like, a huge attendance, because everybody was just so excited. It was something new, a new approach to missionary work. So everybody invited their friends. We also got the whole ward involved with doing, like, musical numbers for the evening. And I really, really loved doing that because it felt so different from the normal approach of just Talking to people on the streets. So that was pretty cool.

Nemo [02:49:49] Yeah, it sounds pretty cool. To be fair, I think I would have been really behind that. It sounds similar to some of what they did around the Nauvoo Pageant in the States. There's a production called Our Story Goes on, which was an outreach program around the Nauvoo Pageant and it got brought to the uk. I was involved with touring with it for a little bit, but essentially what it does is it takes contemporary music and uses it to teach the plan of salvation. So they take music from various, you know, secular musicals and use it to teach the idea of pre existence, birth, death, all that sort of stuff. It sounds like a similar sort of outreach project. Did you get a lot of interest from non members? A lot of people bringing guests, did you say?

Jonas Jödicke [02:50:37] Yeah, especially after. After that first musical, Fireside, I think people were still kind of just wanting to see. See what it was like, the members. But then already then they had invited a lot of their friends. But then after that, we prepared two more musical firesides. So for the second one, we completely. We filmed like a whole film with actors and stuff like that about the gospel of Jesus Christ. And my cousin who was in the ward that I served in was one of the actresses and then also another sister missionary.

Jonas Jödicke [02:51:11] And that second musical, Fireside, was even bigger success because everybody had seen the first one and that it was like a great quality and everybody felt very comfortable just inviting friends. So I think the second one had, I don't know, like 400, 500 people there, which was really, really cool and impressive. And the mission president actually also attended because he had heard about these firesides. And actually there was a lot of gossip about it in the mission because many missionaries were like, oh, this is like not the right way to do missionary work. And these missionaries just sit in the basement of the church all the day and are like drawing and making animations and films and stuff. Like, it's not right.

Nemo [02:51:54] And now you have missionaries dancing on TikTok. So there we are.

Jonas Jödicke [02:51:58] Yeah, I kind of.

Nemo [02:51:59] We've come full circle.

Jonas Jödicke [02:52:01] I think the church is going to embrace technology at some point.

Nemo [02:52:04] Yeah, I think they have to. Okay. Do you know if anyone was ever baptized as a result of those firesides?

Jonas Jödicke [02:52:11] Yeah, I think there were quite a few people who were. At least. There were also many people who started taking the missionary lessons after these events and also a few people who got baptized because of them. And also like other. Other wards in the mission started doing them as well, because we also prepared like Packages, basically, where we had all the files, like, the whole. The movie files and the kind of, like, plan how to organize a musical evening. And then they started doing them in, like, many, many different wards all around Switzerland, Austria, and Germany as well. And we kind of helped them prepare these events everywhere. And that was really, really cool. That was basically the thing that I did for the entire last year of my mission.

Nemo [02:52:58] Okay.

Jonas Jödicke [02:52:59] Because after the second event that my mission president attended, he also really liked it, and the members told him to let us stay in the area so that we could prepare the. The final musical Fireside as well. And he then called us to be musical evening missionaries.

Nemo [02:53:17] All right.

Jonas Jödicke [02:53:18] Officially. Which was pretty cool.

Nemo [02:53:21] That's pretty cool. So that's how you saw out your mission, essentially, was doing, like. I think it sounds like you finally found your place on your mission. You found your. Your place, did you. Were you then reluctant to come home? How did you feel about coming home?

Jonas Jödicke [02:53:39] I was. I was still excited to go home towards the end of a mission because even though the last year was much better than the first year, and I loved being creative on my mission, I still just was looking forward to being at home and kind of going about my day in the way that I wanted to and not having to adhere to other rules and stuff. Yeah. I mean.

John Dehlin [02:54:03] Okay, I have a couple quick questions. Is that okay?

Nemo [02:54:05] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [02:54:06] So, Jonas, so you're serving your mission between, what, 2013 and 2015, is that right?

Jonas Jödicke [02:54:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:15] Okay, so first question. How hard, like. Like, how many missions would an average missionary in. How many baptisms would an average missionary in your mission get? Over two years? That's kind of question one. And then when they did get baptisms, were they normally, like, immigrants from foreign countries? Were they people who were more in the lower socioeconomic status? Were there ever middle class or even upper class, Germans or Swiss? And was there a difference between how the Swiss received, you know, the Mormon message versus the. The Germans? So those are at least three different questions. And then I may have a couple other quick ones. Okay.

Jonas Jödicke [02:55:12] In my experience. Well, to your first question, I think most of the missionaries didn't really baptize a lot of people. I. I personally didn't baptize anyone on my mission. I mean, there. I think there were a few people who got baptized as a result of attending the musical evenings, but that happened. In other words, that didn't happen in my wardrobe.

Jonas Jödicke [02:55:33] And I think most missionaries, like, maybe Max, two, three baptisms, if you were, like, a good, successful missionary. And then to the second question, also in my experience, it were mostly people who were immigrants. I think we rarely taught Swiss people. It was very, very rare. And if so only because they were in some very difficult life situation, usually maybe because, because they were super sick. We had someone who had Parkinson's, for example, and she lost his son to cancer and all these things. So he, he was very, very vulnerable. And I think he just enjoyed having the missionaries around or someone who, like, like a Swiss guy who was very alcoholic. So it was usually people with an immigrant background or people who were struggling mentally or in some other way that we taught.

John Dehlin [02:56:30] Okay, so what I, what I heard is at the most a couple, a handful of baptisms in a two year period and oftentimes immigrants or did you say intellectually disabled or lower socioeconomic status. Yeah, I mean, that's not a.

John Dehlin [02:56:51] I mean, it wonders why the church would even have missions there if it, if. I guess the only reason would be to solidify the commitment of the actual young men and young women because it's certainly not because they're bringing meaningful numbers of converts to the church. I guess you could say that in Mormon theology, every, every soul is sacred.

John Dehlin [02:57:14] So if, if all you do is bring one soul to, to Jesus, it's, it's worth it. But it just sounds like, you know, when people weren't receptive, was it because of what we started talking about, that generally the church is perceived as a cult and so people aren't interested, or was it just literally the Book of Mormon, the message, the doctrine, the theology just wasn't appealing, or is it because the cultures were more secular?

John Dehlin [02:57:42] Why, what is your explanation for why? You know, someone in a Latin American or Philip, you know, a Mormon missionary in the Latin America or the Philippines might get 100 or 200 baptisms during their mission, whereas in, in Germany or Switzerland you might get one or two. What would your explanation be for that?

Jonas Jödicke [02:58:02] I think there are probably two, two parts to it. I think the first thing is that in general Swiss people are very closed off. They like to stay private. They don't really talk to strangers on the street that much.

Jonas Jödicke [02:58:16] Also, many of them are already religious in some way. There are lots of Catholics. Also many newborn Christians, like those kind of churches are also quite big. And they would oftentimes debate us about like the Bible because they're very, very close to the Bible. And then they would be like, well, you, with your second Bible, the Book of Mormon, like it's just not what, what Jesus taught and stuff like that. So I think that's one thing and then the other thing is that Swiss people also are very educated and very modern.

Jonas Jödicke [02:58:47] So what oftentimes happened is that we taught someone and we felt like they were very receptive and open to our message in the very first encounter that we had because we were just basically talking about God and Christ because we wouldn't always right off the bat talk about Joseph Smith and the restoration and stuff. He would just be like, hey, do we have a relationship to Christ? And do you want to talk about that with us? And stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [02:59:10] But then once we try to call them or go to their house and talk to them again, they would not even open the door or would not even answer to a phone call and would maybe even block us. Because I presume that they looked us up on the Internet because they might have seen like our name tags or whatever and then found out about the actual history of the church and all these types of things. Yeah, so I think those are the two things probably.

Nemo [02:59:40] I have a quick point to add from kind of my experience that I think might be helpful to understanding it is when I was a missionary, the area I was in and around London Temple is very wealthy. And I feel like one of the reasons the church gets a lot of baptisms by those who are in difficult life situations or those who are not economically very well off is because essentially you can promise someone something better. You can say to them, if you join this church, if you pay your tithing, God will bless you, God will make your life better. People don't need that if they are already doing very well in their life.

Nemo [03:00:15] You know, you're knocking on a couple of million pound mansion door or buzzing at the gate, as it often was, trying to talk to people who have got their temporal needs have been met. And so those people, I have found, can be quite difficult to convince that they need anything, which is ultimately what you have to do. You have to convince someone they need something from the church in order to get them to invest. Really?

Jonas Jödicke [03:00:39] Yeah, that's my thought. And Swiss people are like in general also very wealthy and many of them were quite happy. Like I even remember one time we approached someone on the streets and he was like, hey, I'm actually an atheist, but I'm super happy with my life. I love everything about my life. I believe in myself. And I remember just thinking like, how can he be happy without God in his life? But he, he really like, he seemed happy, he didn't seem like a sad person. So that was also like a big shelf item for me at that Time, actually.

Coming Home and Building an Art Career

Nemo [03:01:14] Okay, so you. You've come home and you're happy to be back. You returned with honor. You returned with an honorable release certificate. So what was next for you? How did you go about picking up your art career? How did you settle back into normal church life?

John Dehlin [03:01:35] And Nemo, I also want to throw in there just so we don't miss it. Did you leave your mission with a stronger testimony than when you started with the same testimony or with the weaker testimony by the time you're done?

Jonas Jödicke [03:01:51] I definitely left with a much, much stronger testimony. I was very convinced that the church was true, but at the same time, I kind of had this view that there were many things in church culture that were off. I felt like, I don't know, like, the whole focus, the hyper focus on obedience and blindly following rules and the church leaders and stuff like that, like, that was something that I really didn't like and I felt like was kind of off in the church. But in general, I really felt like the church was true. And I was actually very, very fired up about continuing the missionary work when I got home. So I really wanted to bring the musical firesides that we had to prepare on the mission into Berlin and kind of continue the whole thing there.

Nemo [03:02:39] Okay, so how did you go about doing that? Did you manage that? Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [03:02:45] So I came back. And I remember coming back was on one hand, I was very excited to be back, but then on the other hand, it was really difficult to adjust to normal life again because I felt super guilty for everyday things like going on Facebook or listening to worldly music and stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [03:03:09] And also my family situation was very, very difficult. My parents relationship had gotten even worse. They were fighting all the time. My sister, my oldest sister, when I got back, actually had a psychosis. It was like a long story, but she. She had like a very stressful event happening in her life that kind of pushed her into psychosis because. And it was actually a religious psychosis. So she had all these.

Jonas Jödicke [03:03:37] She saw all these things that were very connected to the church. Like she would believe that she was a prophetess and. Or that she was Jesus and that my brother was wearing the urim and Thummim, like these seer stones that Joseph Smith used and all these types of things that lasted for two weeks.

Jonas Jödicke [03:03:59] That was super, super difficult for the whole family and also really for me because I had such a strong connection with my sister. But I think it was just also the whole pressure of her feeling like upon me returning, she had to pretend to be this righteous member of the church, even though she wasn't that.

Jonas Jödicke [03:04:19] And just like many pressures also from family life and everything coming together. So, yeah, it was with that kind of backdrop that I started to really dig into giving my best at church and preparing lots of musical evenings in my ward, and also, in other words, in the stake and really trying to give, like, 120% in church life and also in. In my art career.

Nemo [03:04:49] And so how did. How did that progress forward?

Jonas Jödicke [03:04:53] Yeah, so with my art, I decided at that point that I was going to just try to be a freelance artist. I had mentioned that before my mission, I had already started to earn a little bit of money with my art.

Jonas Jödicke [03:05:07] And then on my mission, like, towards the end of it, I kind of had to decide if I wanted to study something or try to pursue my art, and I decided to do the latter. And I kind of just took it off from where I had left before my mission. I started posting on social media again.

Jonas Jödicke [03:05:27] People were still following me. They were still very active and very excited to have me back. And I also started posting on Instagram, which was kind of a new thing at that time. And I was really lucky because my brotherhood artwork, which is like one of my most known pieces, of two lions kind of looking at each other, like a yin and yang kind of thing, that was the first thing I posted on Instagram. And I didn't have any followers on Instagram at that time. I think maybe a couple dozen, because I got some from, like, some from DeviantArt, went over to my Instagram and stuff like that.

Jonas Jödicke [03:06:03] Yeah, that's the artwork. And that completely went viral on Instagram. Like, it was reposted by a lot of people. Huge art sharing pages and influencers and stuff like that. And I think within one week or so, I suddenly had like 10,000 followers on Instagram. And from that point on, it just kind of grew and grew steadily, and my career started really coming into fruition.

Nemo [03:06:31] Exciting. Very exciting. And the artwork is brilliant. I have to say that. What.

John Dehlin [03:06:37] What does your art mean to you, Jonas? Like, why? Like, obviously. Well, I imagine you enjoy doing it, but I also think that maybe there's some meaning and purpose in it. So is there anything you would want to share about just why you do art and what it means to you?

Jonas Jödicke [03:06:58] Yeah, I think, like I mentioned earlier, when I was in my teenage years and started to really dig into art, it was an escape for me, Kind of like a safe space and also like a way how I could express emotions and concepts that I can't really put into words. Like, sometimes when I start with an artwork, it's just like I have this feeling and. Or this spark of some concept or idea in my mind that I can't put into words, but I can put it into a piece of art.

Jonas Jödicke [03:07:33] And also, I think especially on my mission, I developed a much more spiritual side inside of me. Like, before my mission, my art was very much fantasy focused, like with dragons and stuff like that. But then when I came back, I started also to incorporate my spirituality a lot into my art. So I had this concept of yin and yang in many of my pieces because I just love the interplay of good and evil or light and darkness and how they kind of rely on each other.

Jonas Jödicke [03:08:04] Also the concepts in the Mormon church with. In every good thing, there's also like some kind of opposition which is kind of the yin and yang concept. And. Yeah, so lots of these concepts I started to kind of try to express in my art. Also. Many of my artworks have this theme of some type of animal that is almost divine or godly in some sense, and it's kind of protecting and watching over us. And I guess that's also my view of God like, that I kind of just put into my art through animals, basically.

Nemo [03:08:43] It's interesting as you're talking about this yin and yang concept, I don't want to be that guy that tries to put more meaning into something than there is. But I wonder whether, you know, there's these two sides of you. There's this side of you that's trying to live the church's standards and be what the church wants you to be. And there's this other side of you that, you know, is the side of you that's attracted to other men. And that doesn't work for the church.

Jonas Jödicke [03:09:06] It's actually very interesting that you say that because the particular piece you just showed, the brotherhood one, I actually painted that quite shortly after my mission because I had forgot to mention that towards the end of my mission, I met a sister missionary that I got really close with. Like, we shared a very strong spiritual and emotional connection. Kind of felt like we were soul mates in a way. And I felt like that maybe if I was ever to marry a girl, I think that she might be the one. Like, that's what I felt like at that time. And then I returned home from my mission and we started dating.

Jonas Jödicke [03:09:44] I visited her a couple times in Finland. She came to Berlin. We really tried to make it work, but we just again, couldn't get over the point of a friendship. It always Felt like a friendship to me. I never felt attracted to her physically in that sense.

Jonas Jödicke [03:10:01] And at that time, when I kind of broke it off with her and told her, I can't do this. I can't continue this relationship, that was when I painted this artwork, and the concept just came to my. It was not like I wanted to kind of express anything in particular. I just had this strong feeling inside of me that I wanted to put into something. And then when I had finished this artwork, I realized that, like you said, I think it's almost like I was trying to make peace with myself in a way. Because you look at these lions, it looks like. Like they're angry at each other and fighting with each other, but they're actually forming a heart.

Jonas Jödicke [03:10:38] So in some sense, it's like, even though there might be parts within us that we kind of hate and reject, they are part of us, and they have to work together as a whole, and only in that way can we find peace.

Jonas Jödicke [03:10:52] But I didn't really make that connection at the time. But now looking at it, I'm like, wow. Like, maybe that's what my subconscious was trying to tell me or whatever.

Nemo [03:11:01] Because at this point, you weren't at peace with that part of yourself at all.

Jonas Jödicke [03:11:07] No.

Nemo [03:11:07] Is that right?

Jonas Jödicke [03:11:08] Yeah. I was still very much, like, fighting it and trying to run from it.

Nemo [03:11:17] Okay. And so you were saying that, you know, you met this sister and you broke it off eventually because you couldn't get past that physical point with her. What did that. How did that affect you?

Jonas Jödicke [03:11:33] I think that's. That was the point when I really realized that I am gay. Because. Because up to that point, like I said, I kind of always felt like maybe it was just a phase. Maybe God would heal me if I was just serving fervently on my mission. And then I had met her towards the end of my mission, and it all felt like. It almost felt like fate in a way, because the way we met and then how we connected so strongly together and felt like soulmates, it just felt like it was arranged by God, you know? And I was like, wow, like, this must be the person that I'm going to marry.

Jonas Jödicke [03:12:10] Maybe I'm gonna fall madly in love with her and feel so attracted to her, and God is gonna take away my same sex attraction from me because this is just meant to be. And then once I realized that it's just not working because there is still, like, this big puzzle piece missing that is very important in a relationship, I realized that probably if I can't fall in love with her. I mean, she was also a very beautiful girl. Lots of guys from the Mission actually really liked her.

Jonas Jödicke [03:12:39] If I can't fall in love with her, then probably I can't fall in love with any other girl. And then also the experience with my companion that I had, where I had this huge crush on him, I think I just kind of put the pieces together in my mind, and I was like, I think I'm gay.

Nemo [03:12:54] Well, because you've got. You've got a position of comparison now. You've got a place you can compare your feelings with this girl for the feelings you've had for this guy. You can, you know. Yeah. You've. You've allowed yourself to be in a position where you can actually make a proper comparison and a proper judgment call. And so. Yeah. And there's a piece of artwork here I'd like to share, if that's okay, which I think. Did you. So when you actually came out, you made this, right?

Jonas Jödicke [03:13:28] Yeah, exactly. So. So after I had broke it off with her, I kind of just continued to go about my daily life. I continued working on my arts. My career was going really well. I started to cooperate with many companies, and, like, that part of my life was going super well. But then the dating part was horrible. I tried to date some girls, but it was just never working out. I went to YSA conventions, had crushes on guys instead of girls, and felt horrible about myself all the time.

Jonas Jödicke [03:14:04] And I was very, like, 100% inside of the church. I was having many callings. I was a young men's leader for some time. I was a Sunday school teacher. I did the musical Fire. So I was really doing everything I was supposed to do. But inside of me, I still felt like I was not being authentic. I was not being myself.

Jonas Jödicke [03:14:27] It felt like I always had to wear this mask almost because everybody perceived me as this super righteous, obedient, diligent person inside the church who. Who organized these musical firesides that attracted so many people to the church and was serving in every position that he was, like, with giving 120%, but then at the same time, wasn't even fully being himself. Like, they couldn't see a certain part of myself that I felt so ashamed about.

Jonas Jödicke [03:15:01] So this piece kind of was born from that feeling, but that's. That's when I publicly came out, which is kind of jumping ahead a little bit in the story. But, yeah, that's.

Nemo [03:15:12] We'll come back to that. We'll come back to the image. We will.

Jonas Jödicke [03:15:15] Yeah. Yeah.

Nemo [03:15:17] Okay. So you're doing these firesides and you're, you know, still trying to remain active. What was that like for you in terms of the tension between those two parts, Parts of yourself you've just been talking about?

Jonas Jödicke [03:15:32] I think. I think the main effect it had on me was that it became very difficult for me to love myself and also to accept love by others, because I felt like people didn't truly know me. Like they were giving me all this attention and admiration at church because of all the things that I did for the church.

Jonas Jödicke [03:15:53] But I felt like you don't actually know me. Like you don't know everything about me. So the love that you have for me, it's kind of like you love a certain image that you have in your mind or a certain projection, but not really who I really am.

Jonas Jödicke [03:16:08] So I remember it was super difficult for me to say to people, I love you. Like, even my family members, or even when they told me that they loved me, I became very ashamed and very. I don't know, like, just very tense and felt weird about it because inside of me, I still had this really deep, sad feeling of, I'm not enough. I'm broken, I'm wrong the way I am.

Jonas Jödicke [03:16:31] Yeah, I still try to pray the gay away every day. I read so many things in the scriptures about this topic and in general conference addresses and whatever, but never came off feeling better about myself in any sense.

Nemo [03:16:48] John, any questions?

John Dehlin [03:16:51] Yeah. So around what year would you say you really hit the peak of your. Of the tension between your sexual identity and your church membership?

Coming Out to Family and Leaving the Church

Jonas Jödicke [03:17:02] So I returned in 2015 from a mission, and I think in 2018, things started to really pile up inside of me because there were also many things like my. My oldest sister developed cancer. So she struggled with that for one year, which was also very, very difficult.

Jonas Jödicke [03:17:26] My younger sister had a stalker who stalked her for a whole year. Like, he was also a member of the church. And I kind of tried to take care of her and help her go to the police and everything.

Jonas Jödicke [03:17:39] And then my anxiety was just through the roof all the time. I had lots of health anxiety. I was always afraid that I would also get cancer or other sicknesses. And I was very depressed inside. And, yeah, it all kind of just accumulated more and more and more until one day, I think that was in early 2019.

Jonas Jödicke [03:18:05] I was on the way to a games night with my sister, and suddenly while I was sitting in the bus, I just started to feel my heart beating faster and faster and faster and my breath just getting heavier. And I thought that I was going to die. Like, it was like a very, very strong feeling of dread and fear. And just this thought, like, I will die now.

Jonas Jödicke [03:18:30] Now I know it was a very strong panic attack. I had never experienced something like that before, at least not in that intensity. But, yeah, it was the first experience where I really felt like, wow. Like, my psyche is telling me that there's something very, very off in my life.

Jonas Jödicke [03:18:46] And I. I went home. I even went like. We called the ambulance, but they told me that it was just a panic attack and that they could not really do anything for me. So we went home again. And the next day, I was still very much in anxiety. My sister and my mother were at my place, and we were just talking about lots of stuff, and I was still feeling very weak and just, like, mentally very disturbed. And then in the evening, the strong feeling of fear came up again inside of me.

Jonas Jödicke [03:19:18] And suddenly I just had this feeling that I had to get rid of all emotional burdens or otherwise. I'm just going to drown in this and I'm not going to survive it. I mean, not literally, but just that's what it felt like to me. I just felt like if I don't get rid of this, I will be miserable. And I can't really change anything about that.

Jonas Jödicke [03:19:40] So in that moment, I came out to my mom and to my sister, and it was not something I had planned on doing at all. Like, before that, I had always told myself that I'm not never gonna come out to anyone, I'm never gonna talk about it with anyone, because I was afraid that they would see me differently, that they would reject me or think I'm weird or sinful, but that in that moment, it just. It was like a automatic reaction. Was my body just being like, you have to throw this out there, or otherwise you're gonna not survive this. Yeah.

Nemo [03:20:13] And I suppose knowing what your mother has done, kind of been saying about your uncle and that sort of stuff, difficult. Do you feel like you came out to your mother and your sister just because they were there at the moment at which you just needed to let it out? If your dad had been there, would you have let it out to him? You know, I guess is what I'm asking.

Jonas Jödicke [03:20:35] I think so. I mean, I think it was also just the. The context of the situation because they had been with me the whole day and cared for me and had been really nice to me. And I think in that moment, I just kind of felt like, yeah, like they were there for me. And I just wanted to Share this with them or I had to share it with them. Okay.

Nemo [03:20:56] And how did they react?

Jonas Jödicke [03:20:59] So I was crying a lot and they just both hugged me. They were like, hey, this is not going to change anything about the way that we see you. My mom told me that while she doesn't really know about homosexuality and if that's like, the right thing in front of God and all these things, she still loves me as my mom and she will support me. She just hugged me really long. And she also said that she just felt super sorry that I had carried this within me for such a long time and never really felt like I could share it with anyone.

Nemo [03:21:36] Did she ask why you didn't share it sooner and did you have an answer for her?

Jonas Jödicke [03:21:42] She asked about that. And I think she was also a little bit disappointed or sad in a way that I had not felt comfortable opening up about that with her. But then I reminded her of some of the things that she had said about my uncle and about gay people in general. And I think she understood that. I think she was like, yeah, that makes sense. Like, I can see why with these kinds of comments, you would not feel comfortable coming out to me and to this, like, even to this day, I think that she still doesn't really fully understand the whole thing, like homosexuality. And I think she still kind of believes it's not necessarily the right thing, but she just loves me and she supports me and she wants me to be happy. She loves my boyfriend. So, yeah,

Nemo [03:22:35] yeah, yeah, for her, congratulations, you know, doing. Doing the right thing. And how did your sister take it? Because this is your. Is this. This your active younger sister? Is it?

Jonas Jödicke [03:22:48] No, it was my older sister, but not the oldest one. So it was the one that also went to a mission with me.

Nemo [03:22:53] Okay. Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [03:22:54] Same time, she also reacted really well. She was very supportive, was super sad. I think she also cried a little bit because she felt like. Just kind of like trying to empathize with my experience and was like. Like she couldn't even imagine how. How difficult that must have been. And, yeah, she was very supportive. And from that point on, I kind of gradually came out to everyone inside my family.

Nemo [03:23:23] Okay.

Jonas Jödicke [03:23:25] Yeah. So I told everyone kind of one by one because I didn't want to just have, like, one family meeting or something. I wanted to make it very personal.

Nemo [03:23:35] That's good. Sorry, I probably came off a little bit insincere earlier. I'm just flagging in this heat a little bit. But I do sincerely mean it. I think it sounds like your mum and Your sister reacted really well and I'm really happy that they were as accepting as their worldview allowed them to be, essentially.

Jonas Jödicke [03:23:53] Definitely. Yeah.

Nemo [03:23:55] Yeah. And so I, I guess which, which family member do you feel like was the most difficult to come out to? And, and why was that?

John Dehlin [03:24:02] If you're comfortable sharing.

Nemo [03:24:03] If you're comfortable. Yeah. Yeah, thanks.

Jonas Jödicke [03:24:09] Probably my mom and dad.

Nemo [03:24:13] Okay.

Jonas Jödicke [03:24:13] I mean, the, the first thing, like the first experience with my mom, I already talked about that. But with my dad also, I. I was still kind of afraid that he would be disappointed in me or that he would. Yeah. Feel differently about me, but actually he was really great about it as well. I called him when I was on vacation because I went to like, on vacation two weeks after my coming out. I went to Mallorca and. And yeah, that's when I called my dad and I told him that I'm gay. And he was also very, very supporting. He was like, hey, it's not going to change anything about how I view.

Nemo [03:24:52] That's really good. I think it's actually, it's really important to share this for people so that they understand that it is possible for your family to react well. Doesn't mean they will, but, you know, it does happen. I think that's really important for people to hear that. There are these positive stories as a. How did that then make you feel about the fact that you were gay? Did it change how you felt because.

Jonas Jödicke [03:25:17] Just because you've.

Nemo [03:25:18] I suppose just because you've come to accept the fact that you're gay and just because you've now told your parents, you may still in yourself view it as sinful, perhaps. I'm just wondering if that is still the case at this point. Have you come to terms. Have you accepted it? Have you realized it's not bad? Or have you just accepted it's the way you are? Does that make sense in the story?

Jonas Jödicke [03:25:37] In the timeline, you mean?

Nemo [03:25:38] Yeah. At this point in the timeline.

John Dehlin [03:25:40] Yeah. How did you reconcile that, your outness to yourself and your family with your belief in the church?

Jonas Jödicke [03:25:48] Yeah. So at that time I was still very strong in my testimony in the church and I basically told my whole family that I'm going to still keep the rules of the church. I'm still going to follow the commandments. So I basically, I just kind of accepted the thought that I would probably just be alone my entire life. I mean, in terms of having a romantic relationship, I just accepted the fact that that would probably never happen, that I would stay single and just serve in the church and do my best to my abilities and never act on any gay thought or feeling.

Nemo [03:26:25] Okay, so you've kind of consigned yourself to that life of celibacy. The idea that, you know, this is, this is my. Did you view it as this is my trial? The sort of like, you know, this is my challenge. And that's a common rhetoric. I'm aware.

Jonas Jödicke [03:26:38] Yeah. Yeah, totally. I, I always kind of thought that maybe my natural man, which is like a teaching that they have in the church, which is the part inside of us that's inclined to do evil. I always thought that maybe my natural man is kind of just naturally attracted to guys and that I have to suppress this part and just be super righteous so that this attraction would kind of be subdued a lot.

Nemo [03:27:06] I mean, it's great that you were able to come out to your family, but it sounds like at this point you're still doing some very kind of mentally unhealthy things to yourself. Yeah. So, I mean, did you. So you had this big panic attack which kind of caused this, this coming out, but were you still having these sorts of panic attacks on a smaller scale or were you still experiencing this sort of psychological distress around this issue?

Jonas Jödicke [03:27:32] Yeah, so. So after my first panic attack for two weeks, I was basically in complete anxiety the whole time. And I experienced multiple panic attacks in that period.

Nemo [03:27:46] And.

Jonas Jödicke [03:27:46] But then after these two weeks, I had already booked this holiday that I talked about in advance, so I was kind of like deciding if I should still go or not, if I'm in the capacity to go or not. But I had the feeling that I should go on this vacation. I felt like it might be important for me, was like alone, so I didn't go with anyone else.

Jonas Jödicke [03:28:09] And then on, like being there on vacation, I still was very anxious most of the time. I still had lots, I had like lots of OCD thoughts, lots of intrusive thoughts. I was also afraid. Like I had some suicidal ideation.

Jonas Jödicke [03:28:27] Like sometimes I just felt like if this plane that I was going to Mallorca with crashed into the sea, I wouldn't really mind that much. Like I was kind of over done with life in a way. But yeah, I was. I was there on vacation.

Jonas Jödicke [03:28:43] And that's. It's, it's actually, I'm so glad I went on vacation because I think if I hadn't gone, I might still be in the church.

Nemo [03:28:54] Right. Okay.

Jonas Jödicke [03:28:54] My whole story might have unfurled, unfurled in a very different way.

Nemo [03:28:59] Okay, so just before we get to the Majorca story, I just want to say that, you know, if anyone is out there struggling with suicidal ideation or suicidal thoughts, please, please reach out, get help. I'm sure we can put some numbers to call in the show notes, but yes. So thanks for sharing that with us. Tell us about how Mallorca essentially caused you to leave the church by the sounds of it.

Jonas Jödicke [03:29:22] Yeah, so I was there in Mallorca just trying to enjoy my vacation. But as I said, it was very difficult for me because I was still having this anxiety and depression and all these intrusive thoughts. And I think one week into the vacation, I was alone in the hotel room and I was just browsing YouTube on my iPad and that's when I stumbled over a video that had like listed 10 problems with a Mormon church or something like that.

Jonas Jödicke [03:29:56] And before that I would have always just clicked away right away. Like I never watched any anti Mormon videos of on YouTube or anywhere. But since I think, I don't know at this point, I was just so vulnerable and also so hurt by some of the teachings of the church. And I just saw what kind of effect they had had on me that somehow I felt in this moment like, hey, just keep watching this. Like, just give it a look. Maybe it's complete lies and just made up or maybe there's something in there. So I watched the video and they kind of introduced lots of the issues with historical, like the historical background of the church with the Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith and polygamy and the Book of Abraham and the Temple and all these things.

Jonas Jödicke [03:30:44] And I had never heard about any of the, of these things before. I was completely shielded from these things. Even on my mission. I had never heard of any of these points. I mean, yes, I had heard that there was polygamy in the early Mormon Church, but it was taught to me in a very, very different way. Like I thought it was just done by some church leaders and also just for the purpose of ensuring the salvation of these women and all these things. But then to find out about this, about the actual history was very, very shocking to me. And I remembered that the ex of my sister had just like one week prior to this, posted the CES letter on Facebook.

Jonas Jödicke [03:31:29] And at this point, I did, like, back then, I didn't want to read it. But then when I watched that video and felt like these things actually sound kind of crazy and kind of like they had some meat to it, I wanted to read the CES letter. So I went back to the Facebook post and I clicked on the link and I basically read it all in one go.

Jonas Jödicke [03:31:52] So I stayed up the whole night, I think, until 6 o' clock in the morning. That's a lot. Reading the CES letter because I was so hooked by it. I mean, it was devastating to read because I just felt my whole worldview kind of crumbling in front of my eyes because it just. I think it just confirmed so many of the doubts I had had my entire life about the church.

Jonas Jödicke [03:32:17] And it was just put away in such an. In such an eloquent way that I just felt like, wow, like, these things really make sense. It's not just someone claiming certain things and just lying to me, but I think, like, because he also listed all these sources and gave many different examples of things and stuff. So I was very, very shocked by that. And I.

Jonas Jödicke [03:32:41] After reading it, I already took off my garments and I wrote to my bishop that I wanted a break from church because I needed to figure things out for myself. And I didn't want to have my calling anymore, which was a Sunday school teacher at that point.

Nemo [03:32:59] I was a Sunday school teacher, too.

Jonas Jödicke [03:33:02] Yeah. But that's where my gradual or not so gradual exits from the church started.

Nemo [03:33:12] It's amazing, I think, how ingrained this need to talk to our church leaders is that when you're like, I want to take a break from church. You're like, oh, but I better tell my bishop. You can't just be like, okay, I'm just gonna step away. I'm just gonna say, bishop, don't wanna do my calling anymore. And then just step back. You're like, oh, no, I gotta tell my bishop. That's what I gotta do. It's. Yeah, it's strange. I've heard it from a lot of people that their inclination is like, all right, so I. You told. Called by bishop. Why. Why did we include him? But. But we all do, because it's what's kind of almost trained into us.

John Dehlin [03:33:44] Yeah.

Jonas Jödicke [03:33:45] And I was very involved in the. In the church life. Like in my wards. I. I took on so many tasks all the time. I was a big part of the Ward family. And I think I just owed it to the bishop at that point to tell him, to let him know.

Discovering Church History and the CES Letter

John Dehlin [03:33:59] Okay, I. I have some questions really, really quick about this, Jonas. So as I'm thinking about the availability, you know, because going back to my age, you know, when I was your age, there wasn't the Internet. And then when the Internet came online, let's just say between 95 and 98 or beyond, there still wasn't a lot of information up But. But starting in 2004, 2005, there started to be more and more information on the Internet, whether it was Mormon blogs, you know, 2004, 2005, and then Mormon podcasts kind of get on the scene.

John Dehlin [03:34:40] You know, started with Mormon stories in 2005, and then Mormon expression and others. And then, you know, if you fast forward to the early 2010s, you know, you get Mormon Think, the. The Mormon Think website coming online, Letter from my wife, and then eventually the CES letter, but also the Gospel topics essays. And even before. Before that, there was the whole Swedish rescue issue, where Hans Mattsson, a Swedish general authority or area authority, loses his faith, and the church sends out some top historians to try and keep all the Swedish members from losing their faith and leaving the church. And so I guess it's always surprising to me, you know, definitely within Utah, because the bubble's so strong, but it's always surprising for me to hear kind of a millennial or a Gen Z kind of youth who's probably super Internet savvy, especially if you're a European getting all the way to 2018, you know, before they actually start learning about some of the problems with the church's truth claims.

John Dehlin [03:35:50] Facebook came out, you know, way earlier. Instagram, YouTube. There would have been so many opportunities for you to learn about the problem in the church's history before then. There was even a German Mormon Stories podcast for many, many years that one of my friends kind of led and I guess. And then, of course, the church comes out with its Gospel topics essays by 2014. And so I guess I'm just. I'm trying to understand why it took so long for.

Nemo [03:36:19] You have a theory on that, John?

John Dehlin [03:36:21] I know. Well, let's ask Jonas. Yeah, we'll hear your theory, Nemo.

Jonas Jödicke [03:36:26] Yeah, I think it just shows how strong the grip is that the church has over its members. I was so afraid to ever look up any objective information about the church on the Internet because it was taught to us all the time that on the Internet, there's only lies. And if you start reading about these things, you're gonna gradually lose your testimony and become enticed by. By worldly things. And Satan is going to get you and, like, slowly lead you into, like, really dangerous and filthy things.

Jonas Jödicke [03:37:01] So that's something that I really, really believed. And I was like, yeah, like, everything out there is just really, really elaborate lies. And that's how Satan gets me. So I think that's one part. And then I actually did stumble over one or two snippets of these critical information before.

Jonas Jödicke [03:37:23] I remember that one time I was teaching an investigator together with the missionaries in Berlin and he asked us about, about Joseph Smith and his connection to masonry. And I'd never heard anything about that before. I was like, masonry and Joseph. Like, I just thought it was just like some misinformation that was out there on the Internet. So I started looking that up and I found lots of information about that and I was like, wow, like Joseph Smith was actually a Mason and he actually incorporated some of these Masonic rituals into the temple. And. But I think at that time I just read the refutes on. What's it called? The apologetics.

John Dehlin [03:38:02] The rebuttal.

Jonas Jödicke [03:38:03] The rebuttal.

Nemo [03:38:04] So fair Mormon.

Jonas Jödicke [03:38:05] Yeah, fair Mormon, exactly. So I found fair Mormon and I just read their response and it was good enough for, for me at that time I was like, okay, well maybe Joseph Smith just restored some ancient rituals that were kind of similar to the Masonic ritual. I don't know, like their explanation didn't really make sense, but I was like, it's, it's good enough. And, and then I also saw some other topics on, on, on, on that website. Some, like lots of other responses to problematic questions, but I, I didn't even want to get into any of them because I was like, well, like I don't want to open any of these cans of worms because every question just make me feel so uncomfortable. So I just closed the website and that was kind of it.

John Dehlin [03:38:45] Yeah.

Nemo [03:38:49] I have a broader theory about why it's taking so long for some of this stuff to become so pervasive amongst the youth. Facebook originally was ad free right when it first started, 2004. So you ask yourself, when did Facebook start start to embrace ads then? When did the YouTube algorithm really start to step up and start really promoting stuff to people?

Nemo [03:39:13] I think it's much easier now for someone to end up with a piece of, you know, critical content about the church in front of them because these algorithms that kind of run our lives now have got so much better at serving up things that are going to pique our interest. So, you know, you've been watching a lot of Mormon stuff on YouTube, so a video that's got Mormon in its title may just pique your interest. So that's why you were just scrolling on YouTube and all of a sudden you get this video, 10 problems in the Mormon Church. You know, oh, what's that? That wouldn't have just appeared in front of your eyes in the mid, you know, 2000s or even kind of 2010.

Nemo [03:39:50] I think it's really in the past kind of 10 years or so that we've really started to see a ramp up in this sort of algorithmic content provision. I don't know what you think of that, John, from your kind of IT background, but that kind of rings true to me as a thought.

John Dehlin [03:40:06] Yeah, no, I think there's probably something to that. I do think the overwhelming cause for general Mormon ignorance about their own history and their own doctrine and culture and theology and the problems behind it is, is just, it goes back to Stephen Hassan's bite model that we're just all warned.

John Dehlin [03:40:34] We're. We're told to only read information about the church that comes from safe sources from the church, from Deseret News, from general authorities, from the Ensign, from General Conference, and then we're warned against ever consuming any information from a, from a critical or a non approved source. And we're taught that any negative feeling we have or any scary feeling that we have is, is of the devil.

John Dehlin [03:41:07] And all of those things work together to create strong disincentives. Plus the fear of what would happen with our parents or our siblings or our family members or our community if we ever lost our faith, all of that creates a massive disincentive to, to ever learn the truth about the church.

Nemo [03:41:29] Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. But I just wonder whether that's how people end up finding it eventually is because now the Internet gives it to them, whereas before, because they were taught not to go looking for it, they just never felt found it. Yeah, yeah, Jonas, sorry.

John Dehlin [03:41:44] The algorithms can be very useful in that regard.

Jonas Jödicke [03:41:47] Yeah, no, totally. I think I also have this theory that there need to be like two breaks that you have with a church or two. Two ways of kind of like breaking apart from it. Like one is the emotional and the other one is the integrity. Intellectual. And I think for some people, the emotional one happens much earlier and they don't even really realize it. And then the intellectual one comes later. For example, with my sister who served a mission at the same time as me, she suffered a really bad burnout on her mission and she had to return home early.

Jonas Jödicke [03:42:25] And I think at that point already her emotional break off from the church happened because after that she felt so uncomfortable at church on every Sunday and felt very out of place and had strong social anxiety in church and all these things and felt like there was something off. But for me, I still loved going to church most of the time, even after my mission.

Jonas Jödicke [03:42:46] And yeah, and I think like when she then learned about all these intellectual problems with the church, it was much easier for her to also let go in the end. But, yeah, I think these two things kind of need to come together.

Nemo [03:43:00] Yeah, I think. I think that's a really good point, that there are those two sides. And we are told also that the emotional side of us is far more important than the intellectual side. So if you feel like something's true, it doesn't matter what the evidence says. So you've got to unpick that as well, I think.

Jonas Jödicke [03:43:16] Yeah.

Nemo [03:43:17] So, okay, so you found the CES letter. You've read it, you've taken your garments off, you've told your bishop, I want a break. What do you do next? You're in Majorca, as someone put in the comments, Germany's 17th state. Germans love Mallorca. You're having a great time. So what are you doing now?

Jonas Jödicke [03:43:33] Yeah, so I. I remember the next day, like, I. I just slept for many hours, and then I got up and I just felt awful about everything because even though the church had hurt me in so many ways, I still very much also relied on the church because it was my community. It was like, it gave me a sense of purpose in life, and my entire worldview was just interwoven with the church.

Jonas Jödicke [03:44:03] So I almost, like, I kind of started to doubt these doubts that I had had. Like, and I started to doubt everything I read in the CES letter, kind of like Dieter F uchtor had taught us. And. But then I was like, yeah, but no, like, some of these things, you can't really refute them. Like, they were so logical and just so well presented. So I set out on a journey to really find out every single detail that I could learn about church history.

Jonas Jödicke [03:44:32] So from that point on, I think for about three months, I studied every minute of the day, basically just reading about church history. I didn't really even work during that time. I also still wasn't really feeling that well mentally, so I was like, I'm just going to take a break from work and everything, and I'm just going to focus on this thing because this is the most important thing right now to me.

Jonas Jödicke [03:44:55] So I read Moment Think almost every. Every single article on there. I watched two hundreds of hours of Moment Stories podcast. I. I read many of the sources from the CES letter. I read the gospel topic essays. I watched so many videos about all these things, and, like, everything that I read and saw and watched just reaffirmed to me that the church is not what it claims to be. It just became so Clear to me that at some point, I just couldn't deny it anymore. I couldn't doubt my doubts anymore. I mean, emotionally, I was still very attached to the church, even during that time.

Jonas Jödicke [03:45:36] So sometimes I almost felt like, well, I can just turn off my head and. And just pretend like these things are not there and just kind of go back into just feeling good about the church and just kind of.

Jonas Jödicke [03:45:48] Yeah. Like, focusing on the emotional part of this. But in the end, I couldn't because I'm also someone who I think is, like, puts a lot of emphasis on intellectual things and also honesty and integrity, and I just couldn't ignore these things. Also the kind of damage that church causes to many groups of people like myself and women and people of color and so on.

Nemo [03:46:13] And I don't know whether you'd. You'd agree, but maybe perhaps you'd learned the damage and the emotional toll that keeping parts of yourself separate can do to you. So if you're, like, right now, if I try and bury my head in the sand with this, I know where this leads. I'm just gonna have more panic attacks. And, you know, you. You'd. It's. It's almost like when you compartmentalize the way the church teaches you to, the moment you stop doing it, you realize how unhealthy it was for you or you. You. You. I think you intuitively know not to do it anymore. Yeah. Personally, I don't know whether that's right, but certainly that's kind of the way it was for me. I couldn't compartmentalize the way that I had done the. Once those walls came down, once the shelf broke. I don't want you thinking that totally.

Jonas Jödicke [03:47:01] That was completely my experience. I. I think that the whole panic attack experience and these mental issues, they really were a big motivational factor also for me, because I was like, I want to just heal from things. I have to figure out what is wrong in my life. Like, there is something really big that is underlying my life that is making me feel horrible about everything. So I need to find out what that is. And I think once I found out all these things about the church, I kind of had my answer. I mean, it wasn't the only thing that was difficult in my life. I think also many family things that happened and other experiences, but that was a huge source of my anxiety and my constantly feeling ashamed of myself and all these things.

Nemo [03:47:43] Yeah. So I suppose at some point you had to tell your family who did. Who was the first person? Okay. Who was the first person you told that you were done.

Jonas Jödicke [03:47:56] It's very interesting, actually, on my. That was still on the vacation, even though at that point I wasn't officially done with the church yet. But I had found out all these things. And the first person I called was actually my aunt because she had left the church, I think maybe three years before that, or.

Jonas Jödicke [03:48:14] Yeah, something like that. And so. So I was like, yeah, she's gonna understand. And. And she was the first person I talked to, and she affirmed all these things. She was like, yeah, exactly. Like I always try to tell you, but you would never listen to me.

Jonas Jödicke [03:48:28] And suddenly we were just, like, talking about these things and how we couldn't believe it and how crazy it all was. And, yeah, she was the first person I confided in. And I think the second one was my oldest sister, actually, because she had been inactive for such a long time. And when I told her, I also remember when I came out to her, she was actually the only one in my family who was cheering and so happy. She was like, yes, like, I always wanted a gay brother.

Jonas Jödicke [03:48:58] And when I told her about the church, she was also completely just. I mean, also really shocked because even though she was inactive, she still sometimes felt like, well, maybe the church is true. Maybe I'm just living this sinful life.

Jonas Jödicke [03:49:10] And I think hearing about my experiences and about the things that I had found out really also made her feel like maybe she wasn't all that wrong and maybe she hadn't actually been the black sheep in the family, but maybe she was actually the first person in our family to kind of realize that there was something off in the church.

Nemo [03:49:31] Okay. And then I assume you went on to tell the rest of your family over a period of weeks, months, etc.

Jonas Jödicke [03:49:39] Yeah.

Nemo [03:49:40] Any particular notable?

Jonas Jödicke [03:49:42] Yeah. When I came back from Mallorca, I gradually told everyone and I tried to tell them in person as far as possible or by calling them. And I remember that my family just thought that I had gone crazy when I came back. Like, they literally thought that maybe I was having some psychosis as well, like my sister had had before, because it was just so out of character for me because I had been this super valiant, righteous person before and so on fire for the church. And suddenly I. I came back and I was completely changed in just two weeks. And suddenly I was doubting everything and telling them about all these things.

Jonas Jödicke [03:50:22] And yeah, most. Most of my family members were open to hearing my reasons and, and, and hearing about my research. Some of them weren't. My younger sister didn't Want to hear about it at that time, because she was preparing to get married and getting married in temple and everything. So I think she was just not wanting to break any of that off.

Jonas Jödicke [03:50:45] And also, yeah, some of my other siblings weren't as ready for it at that time. But then gradually I told everyone. I also told them my reasons. And my sister, who had the burnout from the mission, she was the first one to also stop going to church.

Jonas Jödicke [03:51:04] She's still a member now, but she doesn't believe it anymore. She's basically out, but still on record. And my brother, my younger brother also, I think it took around two months for him, and he wouldn't want to talk about anything with me, church related. But then after two months, suddenly he came to me, was like, Jonas, I read the CES lecture. I read everything that you talked about.

Jonas Jödicke [03:51:27] I'm gonna leave the church. And I'm actually also gay. So he came out to me. It was like he. He was very. At first, when I told him that I was gay, he said that he was terrified because he. He knew that he was as well, but he was not willing to come out at this point. But then two months later, he. He thanked me and he was like, you. Like, without you, I think it would have never come out, probably. So, yeah, that motivated him to have the courage to also take that step, which is really cool.

Nemo [03:52:01] That is really cool. And the idea that you were that place he could go, I think is excellent, because too often people don't have that place to go.

Jonas Jödicke [03:52:15] Yeah.

Nemo [03:52:16] Okay. So did you try and get answers from anyone to any of these questions? Because I know certainly when I was confronted with all this, you try and get answers from people, you are. Surely someone must have an answer. Who did you try and get answers from? And did they have any spoiler? I probably don't think they did, but

Jonas Jödicke [03:52:36] that's. Spoiler is correct. No, but at first. So right after I came back from Mallorca and told my family, my brother, the one who also later came out as gay, actually called the missionaries and invited them to our place because I was living with my brother and my sister in a shared apartment. And they came over and it was very lovely. Sisters. And they really loved my family as well, because we had done a lot of missionary work together with them. And they knew me because of the musical evenings and all these things. And we.

Jonas Jödicke [03:53:13] So we talked. We had like a spiritual lesson or thought or whatever. And then at some point they asked me about my doubts and my questions, and I was like, are you really? Like, do you really want to listen to all of it? So they were like, yeah, please tell us. So I started talking about some of the points, and I could tell how devastated they were by everything that they were hearing and how confused they were because probably they had never heard about many of these things there. And they were like, yeah, actually, we can't really answer these things, but we promise you that God loves you, he's there, and this is his church.

Jonas Jödicke [03:53:47] They just started bearing testimony, like missionaries do. They also started crying because they were so upset, I think, and just didn't really know what to do. My brother started crying. He said a prayer for us in the end, and he just broke down into tears and started sobbing.

Jonas Jödicke [03:54:03] And it was just so difficult because also for me, I felt so guilty. I was like, I'm causing all of this upset in my family and with the missionaries and making so many other people doubt in some way. I felt guilty for it because I didn't want to disrupt any peace. But at the same time, I was like, I can't. I can't just hold it inside and pretend like it's not there.

Jonas Jödicke [03:54:26] Yeah. So I tried. Yeah. I talked to the sisters. I also talked to my bishop. I talked to the stake president and the mission president and also a couple friends of mine and from the leaders, like the bishop, stake president, mission president, none of them had any answers. They told me they were open to discuss all of these issues with me one by one. And then after the first meeting that I had with each of them, I only mentioned a few things. And most of the time, they didn't even really let me talk that much.

Jonas Jödicke [03:54:56] They just kind of shared their perspective about things and how they made things work and how their faith was so strong because of experiences that they had and stuff, and they didn't really listen to it. And they also never asked for any second meeting. So I think they weren't that willing, after all, to discuss these things.

Nemo [03:55:14] And it sounds like you went about it in a really respectful way. It sounds, you know, like you. You. You did the right things. You followed the right steps. I mean, you didn't just info dump on people. You know, you had these conversations in a good way. But it shows that the, you know, the man behind the curtain in Oz is not for the questions. Yeah. You know, it's just. It's not. It's not a system set up to answer these questions. It's a system that's set up to suppress these questions and ostracize those that have them. Really so at which point did you then just decide, right, well, I'm gonna be out publicly. Tell me about that. And kind of how things lend up to that?

Public Coming Out and Navigating Family Relationships

Jonas Jödicke [03:55:58] Yeah, I think that was around one or two months after my private coming out. So I came out to my entire family. Then I came out to my friends, many of which were in the church, and most of them were very kind about it as well, even though they said that they don't really support the lifestyle, but they still love me and they think I'm a great person. It doesn't change anything.

Jonas Jödicke [03:56:22] And at that point, I felt like I wanted to share this experience with more than just my private circle, because I wanted to encourage other people who might be in a similar situation to also find the courage to be themselves or at least to accept themselves. I mean, not everybody can always come out. It always depends on the situation they're in, the country they live in, and stuff like that. But I wanted to just send out that message of you can accept and love yourself and be yourself, and you don't have to hide behind that mask all the time. So I. Yeah, I had this idea for this artwork that you showed earlier.

Nemo [03:57:00] I'll put up.

Jonas Jödicke [03:57:02] Yeah, exactly. And I posted it to my Instagram, and it was very well received. It gained a lot of attention on Instagram. People reposted it, and there were hundreds of comments, people congratulating me, but some negative comments, but mostly very overwhelmingly positive comments.

Jonas Jödicke [03:57:24] And, yeah, I felt very, very loved by everyone and accepted. And at the same time, I still sometimes had this thought, like, was it a mistake what I just did? Like, was it the right thing to do to come out publicly? Because I knew that from this point on, there was no way of going back. There was no way of being like, oh, I'm actually straight. I think this was just a phase or whatever. I mean, yeah, I could do that, but it would just be a weird thing to do after coming out publicly.

Jonas Jödicke [03:57:57] So at first there were these little doubts, but then as time went on and I just also started dating guys and became more certain that I was 100% gay, I became very comfortable with that part of myself.

Nemo [03:58:12] Excellent. I think that almost brings us up to the present day, does it not?

Jonas Jödicke [03:58:17] Yeah, kind of.

Nemo [03:58:19] So what is happening for you, Jonas, now? What are you doing to kind of thrive? Shameless plug. What are you doing to thrive at the moment, Nemo?

John Dehlin [03:58:31] Maybe before we do that, I guess I'm curious whether you experience what others have, which is high disruptions of your. Your family relationships. High disruptions with friends, your, your relationships with people who remain in the church. Has it been, has, has leaving the Mormon Church for you, living in Germany been a, you know, socially a difficult thing, a wonderful thing. And then we'll get to your own mental health and well being as well.

Jonas Jödicke [03:59:08] So it has been partly difficult in terms of like the social context. So within my family, gradually almost everyone actually left the church. The only one that is still in is my dad. So he's still attending the church, he's still active.

Jonas Jödicke [03:59:27] But other than that, everyone left the church there either inactive, not going anymore, not believing, or even took the name of the records. And that was, I mean, for me, I told them, like, whatever you decide, I don't care, like, you can stay in the church, it's none of my business.

Jonas Jödicke [03:59:46] And I'm also only going to tell you about my reasons of leaving if you want to know about them. But yeah, like at some point everybody wanted to know. It took the longest for my youngest sister, the one that got married at that time, I think around one or one and a half years later, she suddenly called me and my sister and was like, yeah, actually me and my husband just read the CES letter as well and we are also gonna leave the church, which was a very cheerful day for me. But yeah, like, so, like the family context, that's great. Like, we are all very much on the same page mostly.

Jonas Jödicke [04:00:27] And also with my dad, the relationship is still great. We respect each other's beliefs and we try not to talk about it that much. But then in terms of friendships and the ward family, I did lose many of my friendships from the church. Also there were some members from Switzerland, from my mission who wrote to me and were like, it's so sad what you are doing, what you've become.

Jonas Jödicke [04:00:52] Because I also started sharing some stuff on Facebook, in Facebook posts where I shared some of the critical information and they took that as me trying to work against the church and taking people out of the church, even though I tried to be really respectful. Also in my Facebook posts, I even had like a disclaimer in the beginning where I said that if you are an active member and critical information about the church might be difficult for you to handle, then don't read this.

Jonas Jödicke [04:01:21] But yeah, like many people told me that it said what I've become and that they can't be friends with me anymore because of it and all that kind of stuff. But then there have also been many, many members who have been really great and really supportive who told me that they don't care If I'm gay or in or out of the church, they still love me, they value me as a friend, and they don't care about these things, which is really cool. So, yeah, it's been kind of a mixed experience. Was there a second part of the question? I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:01:56] I guess. I guess you're really fortunate that your. Your family, for the most part, has joined you. So that's. I guess that's really fortunate.

Jonas Jödicke [04:02:06] Yeah, I think it would have been much more difficult because in the very beginning, when I came back from Mallorca and shared these things with them, I just felt this tension, and I was like, if this is what it was like always, and if they always kind of viewed me as this crazy person who suddenly has all these different ideas, I think that would have been very, very difficult for me to handle because my family means everything to me. So, yeah, I think it's. It's super sad that the Mormon Church and the way that it handles these kind of things destroys family relationships In. In many cases,

Nemo [04:02:52] It's the very sad dichotomy of the LDS Church is that it places such value on families in its doctrine and then does so much to destroy them. Yeah, it's. It's sad. It's so terrible that that is. That is what goes on. But. So what are you doing now to, you know, look after yourself? And I guess the other question, the real point I want to kind of almost hammer home at the end is how representative is your experience of the LDs? How representative is what you've gone through? How representative is that of the experience of the church in Germany in general? You know, is what's happened to you happening to a lot of people? Is this going on more widespread?

Jonas Jödicke [04:03:39] Yeah. Yeah. To your first question. So after leaving the church for some time, I kind of tried to retain my belief in Christianity. After I tried to. I even went to Hillsong Church at that time, actually, with my boyfriend. I met him two and a half years ago, and he's also a Christian. He grew up Christian as well, and we went to Hillsong together. But then I also realized that Hillsong has many of the same characteristics that the Mormon Church has and many of the same tactics that they kind of manipulate you emotionally in some ways. And they're also very focused on money and all these things.

Jonas Jödicke [04:04:18] So I realized that I just can't really be in a church context anymore because it also triggers. It triggered so many of my past traumas with the church. I started feeling guilty about myself again, about my sexuality and all these things. So I kind of just tried to stay away from that. And then I gradually started also questioning many things about Christianity, like about the validity of the Bible, the Old Testament. I mean, there's so many crazy stories in there that I just don't think are literal events that happened, like the Ark of Noah and all these things and. Yeah. So I kind of started deconstructing that as well.

Jonas Jödicke [04:04:59] And I think right now I'm just kind of at a point where I. I just believe in good principles like love and serving each other and trusting that there is some kind of higher power or purpose in life.

Jonas Jödicke [04:05:16] I don't know what it is. I don't really give it a name. I don't care if it's a he or she, it they or not a person at all, but an energy or, I don't know, just like the collective consciousness of humankind or whatever it is.

Jonas Jödicke [04:05:33] I just try to live by principles that I think are worthwhile. And in a way, life feels a lot more vulnerable because I lost many of my coping mechanisms that I had in the. In the church. Yeah. I still pray, even though I don't really know what I'm praying to, but I just love that feeling of,

John Dehlin [04:05:56] I

Jonas Jödicke [04:05:56] don't know, like, communicating with something outside of myself or even just contemplating about life and going inside of me doing prayer. And I try to just live by these good principles and try to be a kind and honest human being as best as I can.

Nemo [04:06:20] I think that's great. I think. I think we often get accused in the ex woman space of promoting atheism and. And basically everyone that leaves the church has to turn into a rampant atheist who hates religion. I don't think that's the case at all. I think what you've shown there is that there is space. You actually have. I think that the key takeaway is you have the breathing space to work out what you actually believe about the world and about things around you. And I think we should applaud that and celebrate that. That people are now able to finally believe what they want to believe and think what they want to think.

Jonas Jödicke [04:07:01] Yeah. And I think it's actually beautiful to be able to not say, I know that this and this is true, but just to say now I just say, I hope for certain things. It's kind of like at the start of my mission, I'm just like, open to lots of things. I hope that there is something higher than me, but I don't have to know for certain. And I probably can't know for certain, I'm gonna have to wait until this life is over, and maybe I'm gonna see if there's something else after it. Or if not, then that's also okay.

Nemo [04:07:32] Things might just go black. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:07:35] Jonas, I. For a long, long time, you denied your sexuality. You denied that you're attracted to men, and you certainly denied having any emotional or physical sexual relationship with men. Have you started dating other men? I. I think you've already told us you have. But can you tell us about what that's been like for your happiness, your mental health, just your general enjoyment of life to actually embrace your nature instead of trying to deny it and push it away?

Jonas Jödicke [04:08:10] Yeah. Yeah. So I remember when I first started to date. I went on all kinds of online platforms because that was the only way that I knew how to connect to other gay people. So I went on Tinder and I texted with guys, and there was this one guy that I connected with who lived in Munich in southern Germany, and we were writing every single day. And just the kind of feeling that I had towards him, just writing with him, just the excitement and the butterflies in my stomach and all these things just felt so different from all the dating experiences that I had with women before.

Jonas Jödicke [04:08:48] It was kind of the same feeling that I had on my mission with this one companion of mine. And I was just thinking again to myself. And now also with the context of me not really believing in the church anymore at that time, I just felt like suddenly I just felt like, how could the church have kept this wonderful feeling from me all these years? And why did I feel so guilty about something that is so beautiful and so natural and normal?

Jonas Jödicke [04:09:18] I also ended up dating him or meeting with him a couple times. It didn't work out between us in the end, but we kissed. And I remember the first kiss with a guy. I mean, it was wonderful, but also kind of weird because I'd never kissed anyone before, at least not, like, really kiss them. I had actually kissed the Finnish girl from my mission. But, yeah, that was, like, a weird experience for me.

Jonas Jödicke [04:09:46] But, yeah, like, I remember feeling so good about the kiss, but then after the kiss, I felt so guilty and so ashamed and dirty that I had to take a shower just to kind of wash off all the shame.

Jonas Jödicke [04:09:59] So it did take some time for me to feel less ashamed of myself and less like I was doing something wrong. But the feeling eventually went away. I think it took around maybe a year for me to feel much less guilty about things. And now dating guys, and, I mean, now I'm In a long term relationship with my boyfriends.

Jonas Jödicke [04:10:20] I don't feel guilty about anything anymore. Like now for me, being in a relationship with a man and also sexual things and all these things, it's just a normal part of life. And I've also realized that it's crazy because I feel like when I was still in the church, I was so fixated in my mind on sexuality being this amazing thing that kind of everybody is just waiting for because everybody wants to get married as fast as possible to be able to have sex.

Jonas Jödicke [04:10:53] And then also like all the fixation on masturbation and the guilt around it and stuff. And now that I've just kind of accepted that sexuality is a normal and healthy thing, it feels like it's not controlling my life at all. It's just one part, one beautiful part of my life. But it's not like it's the most important thing that I have to always think about or fixate on. It's very interesting how, how that changed.

Dating, Healing, and Life After Mormonism

Nemo [04:11:16] Can I ask you a question about dating? And I think this would be helpful for anyone in your situation who, you know, comes out of the LDS church who is gay, who then wants to start dating. Do you have any advice for someone in your situation about how they might go about explaining to a person they're starting to date who may have been at ease with their sexuality for a long time? Do you have any advice for how to kind of have that conversation with the person you're dating about what it was like to be Mormon or about, you know, your experience and how you're, you're still feeling ashamed and these sorts of things? Do you have any advice?

Jonas Jödicke [04:12:02] I would just suggest to be very open and honest. Like that's also what I did with the guys that I dated at first. I told them that I come from this context and I have a lot of shame around that topic. And I don't have any sexual experiences or anything in that sense. So I'm very unexperienced, also very scared of it. So I'm going to take things very slowly. And I think if, if someone doesn't accept that, that's already a huge red flag and you can stay away from these kinds of people because you don't want to be with anyone who doesn't accept your personal boundaries. So I think just, just being honest and then seeing if people are open to kind of to accept your boundaries and to treat you with respect and dignity, I think that's really the only advice I can give.

Nemo [04:12:58] Brilliant. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [04:12:59] And Then just overall, I guess a Mormon is taught, I was taught as a Mormon that wickedness never was happiness. And by definition, any same, any sex outside of heterosexual marriage is considered a sin next to murder. So I guess in the Mormon mind, there's no way that you, Jonas, could be happy. You know, as someone who, who loves men or dates men or even enters into relationships with men. Not only could you not be happy, but. But it's wickedness, you know, that would be the Mormon point of view. And so if you were to just say, hey, well, let me just tell you, I know my happiness, I know my health. I'll tell you to what extent I am healthier and happier now versus before, what would your response be to an orthodox Mormon who, who would be skeptical?

Jonas Jödicke [04:14:01] Well, I would just tell them that just from my personal experience, it's just not true that there's no happiness outside of the church, because that's what I was always taught when I was still inside the church, that people might experience some type of counterfeit version of happiness. But it's not true joy and happiness. And that's definitely, definitely not true. I've had many moments and phases where I felt very at peace with myself, very happy, very joyful and excited about life. I mean, I can't sit here and pretend like life is perfect outside of the church. Not at all. I still have many struggles to go through and still many things to heal from.

Jonas Jödicke [04:14:46] I still have phases where I struggle with my mental health and anxiety and depression and things like that. I think it's also, there's a genetic factor and also just from everything that happened in my life. But overall, I would say I'm in a much, much better headspace than I was when I was still inside the church.

Jonas Jödicke [04:15:05] I just feel much more at peace with myself. I feel I can be my authentic self. I don't have to hide anymore. I can let my thoughts run free. That was a huge thing for me because I would. I was so good at the, like, thought stopping techniques. I would always stop my thoughts from going to certain topics, from thinking about certain things and concepts. And now I can just think about everything and, and kind of consider any kind of school of thought and philosophy and theories. And I just love diving into all these different topics and, and learning about science. I was even afraid of learning about science because I was like, what if I find that things contradict the view of the church?

Jonas Jödicke [04:15:47] So just being able to think freely, speak freely, be myself, is something I would never, ever, ever give away again, even for the benefits that I had inside the church. I mean, I do miss parts of the church. I do miss the, the strong community. I do miss that constant feeling of there is a God watching over me and kind of taking care of my needs and all these things. But if I had to, like, go back to the church now with everything that I know and have experienced outside of it, I think I would feel so confined into a prison almost, and I would feel.

Jonas Jödicke [04:16:30] Feel like I would have to go against so many of the values that I now really hold very dear to me. So I just can't imagine that at all.

Nemo [04:16:42] Excellent.

John Dehlin [04:16:43] And back when you were in the church, you were having panic attacks and wanting to die, basically.

Jonas Jödicke [04:16:47] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it wasn't all just happiness. It was just, like, occasional search of happiness and strong emotions inside the church. It would kind of save me from my depression for a day, but then I would just feel bad again. Yeah.

Nemo [04:17:08] Like, you, you've. You, you enter these spaces where you've been conditioned to feel an uplifting emotion. So then it happens, and you're like, oh, well, you know. Therefore, it's almost like they press this. They try and press this internal reset.

Jonas Jödicke [04:17:21] Yeah.

Nemo [04:17:22] And I think that's one of the things that Covid's done for a lot of people, is that they're not having that button pressed constantly, so they're able to more fully evaluate what's going on in their life and the role the church plays in it.

John Dehlin [04:17:33] I'm so happy for you, Jonas. I'm so happy you found health and happiness and not perfection, not a painless life. Life is always going to have pain and suffering. But it sounds like you've increased your general health and happiness by leaving the church.

Jonas Jödicke [04:17:49] Yeah, definitely. I found so many great friends also in the LGBTQIA community. I just realized how amazing many of these people are and just glad I don't have to judge people anymore by any of these arbitrary rules and concepts.

Nemo [04:18:11] I, I, I'm not normally speechless, honest. But I don't know if you've noticed the last few times you've said something, I just haven't really known what to say because your story is very impactful for me. I'm sure it is for many people listening, and I'm just really grateful that you've chosen to share it.

Jonas Jödicke [04:18:28] Thank you.

Nemo [04:18:29] Thank you.

Jonas Jödicke [04:18:30] It's a huge honor. I mean, like I said, I listen to moment stories hundreds of hours, and now being able to share my story on here is a huge honor for me and just hope that it might touch Some people and help some people who might be in a similar situation.

Nemo [04:18:46] It definitely will. And I think the more we can do to reach beyond just America. Sorry, John. And to reach people in Germany and all over the world, I think is worth doing. John, what were you going to say?

John Dehlin [04:18:59] No apologies, Nemo. That's good. That's why we're doing this. Thank you. And Jonas, what do you. What should we. Look, you know, you have. You've got like, over 230,000 Instagram followers at this point. Like, that's huge. Like, Mormon stories. I think we have, like 18,000 Instagram followers. Like, you're. You're way bigger than we are. What, What. What are you doing these days in art? And what do you want to do going forward?

Jonas Jödicke [04:19:27] So I'm. I'm doing a lot. I'm mostly working with different companies for different products. I work with Ravensburger, which is a puzzle and toy company, and I have many puzzles out with them. So if anyone likes my art and wants to put it together as a puzzle, they can order it on Amazon and on Ravensburger's website.

Jonas Jödicke [04:19:52] I'm also. I just recorded a course about digital art with Domestika, which is a platform that offers all kinds of courses about creative topics. So if anyone wants to learn how to paint these kinds of artworks digitally, they can also take that course. I'm going to release it probably in two months or so.

Jonas Jödicke [04:20:14] I want to get into so many other things in the future. I would love to write books because I also really love writing. I might want to do more with my music. I also want to get into films in some way. Like, movies really fascinate me, so I would love to maybe do something in that field and just. Yeah, if you want to follow along my journey, you can do so on. On Instagram. My handle is Jojo's Art. I think it's also in the description and down there. And I'm also on TikTok. I'm on Facebook. Yeah. So can follow me J O J

John Dehlin [04:20:53] O E S art. A R, T. Jojo's art. Is that right?

Jonas Jödicke [04:20:58] Yep, exactly.

John Dehlin [04:20:59] And it's in your. It's in your name on your window right now. So we'll put it in the show notes.

Nemo [04:21:06] Yeah. Somewhere on the screen. Okay. John, over to you, my friend.

John Dehlin [04:21:16] Well, Nemo, thank you so much, Nemo, for being, you know, kind of our co pilot on this and so many other episodes. And by the way, Nemo, we really love what you do on your channel, Nemo the Mormon. So please, everyone, subscribe and follow Mormon stories. Podcast on YouTube or Facebook or wherever you get, you know, tick tock, Instagram, wherever you follow Mormon stories but also follow Nemo the Mormon. Check him out, subscribe and follow him because he's, he's co leading a really important movement in the UK that we call the Brit Vengers. And it's basically a bunch of amazing progressive and post Mormon content creators that are really helping influence the the church and the ex Mormon community in the uk. So thanks for all you do, Nemo.

Nemo [04:22:05] Pleasure.

John Dehlin [04:22:08] And let's do another Thrive UK soon because for as reserved as you say the Brits are, they sure know how to party.

Nemo [04:22:13] Yeah, we do. Yeah. And I just want to say again, you know, if you're watching this and you're somewhere in Europe, reach out if you feel like Thrive. If you feel like you need a community, a post Mormon community, a place to thrive after Mormonism or after any high demand religion, please reach out, let us know, go to thrivebeyondreligion.org I'm planning to move around European cities throughout the next year or two. You know, there's a few stops on the tour that we've already got assigned, but if you're in Spain or if you're in France or you're in Belgium or wherever you are and you say, hey, we want a Thrive event, then we can help you organize one for you and your people. How's that sound?

Jonas Jödicke [04:22:58] And also if anyone lives in Berlin or kind of surrounding Berlin, you can also reach out to me on my social media if you want to because actually I really loved the Thrive event that Nemo organized here in Berlin and a friend of mine and me actually said that we would love to have these kinds of gatherings more often. So if there's anyone who, I don't know who's still inside the church, maybe doubting things or outside or in between or just interested in the topic, reach out to me. I would love to get something together as well.

John Dehlin [04:23:32] You know, we need is we need a Thrive Mallorca. That's what we need.

Jonas Jödicke [04:23:36] Thrive Mallorca, please.

Nemo [04:23:39] Excellent. It would just be Thrive Germany, but in Majorca, I think.

John Dehlin [04:23:45] All right, Nemo, that's your job.

Nemo [04:23:47] Cool.

John Dehlin [04:23:49] All right, Jonas, thank you so much. Thanks for your story, thanks for your art, thanks for your support, support. And we just wish you all the best and just you being the happiest, healthiest, best you is the, the best for all of us. So we're just really thrilled for you and we're grateful that you're willing to tell your story on Mormon Story.

Jonas Jödicke [04:24:08] So thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

John Dehlin [04:24:11] Stay in touch. All right.

Jonas Jödicke [04:24:13] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:24:14] All right. Thanks again, Nemo. And thanks, everybody. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to everyone who in the Super Chat made a donation. If you follow us on YouTube, you can always donate through the Super Chat feature.

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