In this three-part interview conducted by Sarah Collett of A Thoughtful Faith podcast we discuss:
- My ups, downs, and ups with the church
- The story behind the “Why Mormons Question” survey, including my interactions with a few church leaders
- A discussion of the Daniel Peterson/Neil A. Maxwell institute incident last year
- The reasons behind the discontinuation of the Mormon Stories conferences and communities
- Interactions w/ my bishop and stake president over the past year
- How and why I’ve returned to full activity in the church
Big thanks to Sarah and Micah for all of their hard work.
Episode Transcript
Hosts: John Dehlin, Sarah Collett
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Origins of Mormon Stories
Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 397
Guest [00:00:01] Come, thou fount of every blessing, Tune my heart to sing them grace.
John Dehlin [00:00:11] A Thoughtful Faith Podcast is a production of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to A Thoughtful Faith are tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@athoughtfulfaith.org.
Sarah Collett [00:00:45] Welcome to A Thoughtful Faith Podcast. This is Sarah Collett, and I am very excited to say that I am joined by John Dehlin today. And we're going to be. Well, I am going to conduct the interview, which is kind of odd to sit and interview John, but that's the way it's going to go today. And we're really excited that he's here and that he's willing to speak about some of the things that are going to come up. And welcome.
John Dehlin [00:01:14] Thank you. Thanks, Sarah. I'm a big fan.
Sarah Collett [00:01:18] That is so nice. And also very embarrassing. Well, let's see. Should we just jump right in?
John Dehlin [00:01:26] Jump in.
Sarah Collett [00:01:26] Okay. So for me, as I was thinking about this podcast, I went back and I listened to all of the podcasts that I could find where you really talk from a personal perspective and spent some good hours with. You didn't even know in the past couple days. But what I really felt, how we should approach this interview, I really felt that we needed to just cover Mormon stories. So 2005 on, and however you want to contribute to that is we'll just kind of go with that. And I want to open by asking about, as you look back from now from, you know, today and you. You consider that very first podcast, you kind of outlined some of the goals that you had for the podcast, the direction that you wanted Mormon Stories to go in and what you wanted it to be. And I think it's probably gone through quite an evolution, and you've probably evolved personally with the evolution of Mormon stories. And so I just want to say or ask, how do you think it's gone? Do you feel like you have. Has Mormon Stories achieved what you originally set out to achieve? And then what is that evolution looked like from your perspective?
John Dehlin [00:02:54] Well, when I, when I originally created my first episode in this very room, where we're meeting in my house, downstairs in my basement, you know, I don't know that I fully understood my motives. I. I knew that I had suffered a lot of pain trying to figure out some, you know, the difficult aspects of the church at the time. I had read enough Lowell Bennion and Eugene England and T. Edgar Lyon to have this naive optimism that if those guys could know all the tough stuff and still believe that we could figure that out, too. So I do think that there was a big part of me that started Mormon stories as sort of this way to inoculate thinky Mormons and just say, look, there's tough stuff out there, but let's get it out in the open. And I know that if we just do that and bring on the thoughtful people, that in the end, we'll all be strong, happy, more committed members of the church. Like, I think that was definitely a primary motivation. There's probably. There was probably a part of me that wasn't totally sure that was going to work. So it was a bit of a leap of faith. But if I'm being honest, there's probably a part of me that said, and if we're not able to do that, if we're not able to make it work, then that's the way it needs to be, too. Because just hiding and not talking about stuff and allowing people to just suffer in silence, that's unacceptable. That can't be the way through this. So I think I've always had. You know how you've seen those movies where there's a white angel on the right shoulder and a devil on the left and they're both whispering in the ear? I think throughout this whole process, I've had an angel and the devil pulling me in both directions at times saying, nope, we can make this work. This is totally doable. Meaning the church and faith and religion and belief and affiliation with the church, and then another side saying, nope, it's a fraud, it's a lie, it's not true, and we need to uncover the falseness and get real. And those have been two tensions I think I've carried the whole time. Not always consciously, sometimes consciously. There were probably times where my goal was to keep everyone in the church, and there were probably times where I don't say my goal was to lead people out, but I was just angry and kind of wanting to stick it to the man. And if it led people out of the church, that's the way it was going to be.
Sarah Collett [00:05:46] So when you look back when you started out, you kind of. You had this lofty goal of making it work. Do you look back on any one day or experience or time when the direction started to shift where you did start to feel a little bit more angry or more frustrated? How do you. I mean, when you go back, how do you Mark. Mark. A shift.
John Dehlin [00:06:18] Yeah, I was thinking about that, and I was. I have the list of all the episodes of the interviews that I've done, and I think that some. As I was reflecting this morning with Margi, my wife, trying to think about what I'd say, I think that another parallel process I've been struggling with is intellectual versus emotional, because I think there have been times where intellectually I came to an understanding or started to figure something out, but my emotions hadn't caught up with me. So I might say, intellectually, I can make the church work. And then. But I hadn't done the emotional work yet, and then that made it more difficult. Or I'd say, I want to leave the church. Intellectually, it's just not true. And then emotionally, I hadn't come to grips with what that would really mean, emotionally and spiritually, to leave. But what happened was in those early interviews, you know, Greg Prince and, you know, Greg Kearney, the apologist, and some of those people, John lynch, early on, you know, it was sort of. It was sort of just saying, let's take this faithful perspective. And in those early interviews, you can even hear me in that Masonry interview with Greg Kearney, where I even just erupted when he gave this answer about how he reconciled Masonry with the temple. I'm like, that's it. You gave the answer, you know, and I felt like I was just on this discovery that would ultimately lead everyone, including myself, firmly in. But then I started interviewing people like Todd Compton and, you know, Buckley Jepsen, the gay man. And then I interviewed Grant Palmer, and I thought that I had an understanding of church history because I had read, you know, five or 10 books. But hearing Todd Compton talk in depth about polygamy and polyandry, hearing Grant Palmer really tell his story, that. That was shaking to me because I didn't have a full intellectual or emotional understanding of some of these issues. So really, digging in became more and more unsettling to me. And there was this parallel process again, that was happening where people started reaching out to me. Like, I didn't know whether there'd be 100,000 listeners or two in my first year or five years. But what happened was people just immediately started emailing me and driving or flying from far places just to come to Logan to meet, wanting to have dinner with me. I'd travel with my MIT job to various countries and cities, and everywhere I'd go, someone would want to talk, and people would just. They would tell me, you know, my wife's ready to leave me, or I'm addicted to porn and I can't stop. Or, you know, I have an eating disorder. I'm bulimic, you know, whatever the story was. And I just tapped into this huge reservoir of deep suffering and pain. And that was something that I just. You can't understand that until you've talked to a hundred or a thousand, or in my case, a few thousand people, and seeing how much suffering is going on out there within the Mormon context. And it became like, my family watched Lord of the Rings recently with my two oldest daughters, and we saw the. The Hobbit. And I think about Frodo carrying this ring. And he carried it around his, you know, with the chain around his chest. And I don't know if you remember, there's a point where he takes off his shirt and the chain and there's scars kind of, you know, on his chest and around his neck. And wearing that pain and suffering and being exposed to it in such a concentrated form. I mean, I would. Anytime I was exercising, I would take a phone call. Anytime I was driving back from the airport, I would take a phone call. Anytime I was on a business trip, lunches and dinners would be scheduled. And it became this huge burden of pain. And. And that made me angry. And it. And so that. That informed a lot of how I felt, not only about exploration, but also my frustration with apologists and the church. There was just so much pain. So if you go from then Grant Palmer, you know, into, you know, do
Early Interviews and Responding to People in Crisis
Sarah Collett [00:11:06] you remember what year you interviewed Grant Palmer? Just so we kind of have a time frame.
John Dehlin [00:11:11] I want to say it was around between 2005 and 2006.
Sarah Collett [00:11:15] Okay. So it was in the first year.
John Dehlin [00:11:16] Yeah. And I. And I had this deal where I always wanted to be fair. So before I ever agreed to interview Grant Palmer, I wanted to try and interview someone from Fair Farms or Richard Bushman or whatever. But no, I couldn't find anyone who would do that. I couldn't find anyone who would talk candidly about Joseph Smith and take my questions. And I asked Michael Ashe. I asked Daniel Peterson. I was a member of the Fair list at the time. I went on and I said, hey. And I just couldn't find anyone who was credible, who is articulate and really knowledgeable who would do that. And that was really frustrating. So. So anyway, I don't know. I'm kind of rambling, but.
Sarah Collett [00:12:00] Well, no, I really love. I love the point that you make about the fact that people's pain made you angry. Did those people that were seeking you out did they generally feel like they wanted to leave the church? Were most of them in that mode, or were some of them really struggling to stay, or were they all across the spectrum in terms of their attitudes towards the church?
John Dehlin [00:12:28] It was all over the spectrum. I remember bringing some people to my home that were really angry and into some really alternative lifestyle types of things. And my kids. I made this guy an omelette, and my kids were here, and my wife, and. And he was in a really angry, bitter place, and he started talking about some really inappropriate things in front of my kids. And I realized how careful I needed to be about that because these were strangers just coming in. But no, most people really wanted to make it work or they wouldn't have bothered. And so they came to me, like, right in the thick of it suicidal, or marriage was on the precipice of divorce, or they didn't know. Knew that. They knew they were about to pop. They knew they needed to talk to their bishop or stake president, but they didn't know how. And most of them just wanted to know, how do I tell my wife? How do I tell the bishop? How do you make this work? It was always with the intent of trying to work through it in a constructive way.
Family, Marriage, and the Podcast's Early Days
Sarah Collett [00:13:25] So you mentioned your family being very present in terms of all of these people that were coming into your life. Did you. Were you always open with your bishop and your stake president, like, from the beginning, did they know you were doing this? Was this something that you started? You know, did you hide it? Basically, is what I'm asking at the beginning, or were you always open?
John Dehlin [00:13:46] When I first started the podcast, I was teaching elders quorum here in Logan, and I had started introducing difficult topics into my elders quorum lessons. And a third of the quorum loved it, a third of them slept, and a third of them really hated it. And that landed me kind of in the bishop's office because some people complained. And it's really funny. My first bishop, I just said, I'm in a world of hurt and I'm having all these problems, and I'd love to talk to someone about it, but I'll be honest with you, this is difficult stuff, and I don't want to damage your testimony. And my first bishop just said, you know what, John? To be honest, I'd rather not know. And so we just had this agreement where we wouldn't talk about it. And he didn't do it from a. He was a really sweet man. He's still in our ward. He just knew his limits and didn't really want to go there. So that was that bishop. I didn't start talking to my stake president until last year, but the thing is, he kept me in Elders Quorum as an Elders Quorum instructor. I did that calling three years and eventually asked to be released, but he didn't want to know.
Sarah Collett [00:15:01] So did your wife know, and how did she feel about it as you started the podcast? And especially how did she feel about you bringing all of these people into your world and into your life?
John Dehlin [00:15:13] Well, this person that I brought in early on really didn't mix well with the family, and that left a bad taste in Margi's mouth for me, bringing people into the home and to the kids. And so she kind of quickly, early on said, you know, when you do this, I think you need to take it elsewhere because I don't want this disturbing the kids. I don't want this to be what our family is defined by. The emotions and the feelings are kind of disruptive.
Sarah Collett [00:15:48] Have you been able to maintain that?
John Dehlin [00:15:50] Well, we've been through cycles. I did that for a while. And then when we started having our crisis together, we made some friends and through Mormon stories that became really good friends during times when we were in and out of the church. And. And then it kind of got old, and so I took it out of the family again for a while, and that ended up being really not good. And so now we, Margi and I kind of tried to do everything together.
Sarah Collett [00:16:21] So you just barely mentioned that you started your crisis together. Will you describe that? I mean, was she always on board with everything that you were thinking and doing, or was there a time where she really kind of decided to address certain issues?
John Dehlin [00:16:41] It started back in Seattle when I. When I was a seminary teacher. And I started reading all these books. And at some point after Fawn, Brody and other things, Michael Quinn, I just turned to her and said, I don't think there's just one evening, kids were in bed. I just said, I'm not sure the church is what it claims to be. It was really hard to get those words out of my mouth. And she immediately started crying. And then she did this really powerful thing, which was she just kind of pulled it together. And she said, well, I trust you, so whatever you want to do, I'll be supportive as best as I can. So I wasn't ready to leave the church at that point, so I just stayed in, but was in turmoil for two to five years. And I had her read rough. I had her read no Man Knows My History. And some of the other books. And she immediately understood what my concerns were. So there was never this, why do you have to read these negative things? It was always like, well, I want to understand. Oh, I get it. Okay, now what do we do about it? So as long as I was staying in the church, she was willing to stay. When I was becoming so unsettled and angry and frustrated at church, the last thing she wanted was for her and the kids to keep going to church and for them to start looking at me as bad or broken. And so she wanted to keep the family together. So when I kind of went inactive the first time, she decided to go with me. And so we kind of all went inactive as a family together that first time.
Sarah Collett [00:18:24] So give me a year for your inactivity. In terms like 2005, when did you stop?
John Dehlin [00:18:30] I think I, you know, I'm fuzzy on years, and I ask people years all the time, but I think it was kind of 2006 to 2007 where we kind of went inactive.
Sarah Collett [00:18:40] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:18:43] Yeah, it was before. Kind of before the stale, the S thing, and before the Richard Bushman thing thing. And that's how my memory remembers it. That was the first time.
Sarah Collett [00:18:54] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:18:55] Kind of three. Kind of three years here, two or three years into our time here in Logan.
Sarah Collett [00:19:00] Okay. So as we were developing this podcast you mentioned as a marker, 2007, and the way that you described it is a slow decline. Can you start to elaborate on what you meant by 2007? A slow decline?
John Dehlin [00:19:18] Well, yeah, the decline was sort of from my mission to 2006 in the sense that I had the awful mission experience. But then I, you know, came to BYU and was able to hold on and get married in the temple. But then I was never fully feeling comfortable with the church. That whole time from. From 1993 until I was teaching seminary. And then when I moved here and started meeting, you know, again, Grant Palmer and Todd Compton and the Toscanos, and then getting plugged in all this pain, it was just 2005, 2006, kind of this decline.
Sarah Collett [00:20:03] Would you say that when you're using the word decline, you're thinking in terms of, like, intellectual connection to the doctrine of the church? Or are you actually thinking in terms of, like, spirituality? I mean, is there a connection between the two for you?
John Dehlin [00:20:18] Yeah, well, that's one of the main things I've learned, but I was mostly engaging purely intellectually. I had disconnected emotionally in many ways and spiritually. And I had just said, what matters is figuring out in my brain. And I just need to know whether it's true or false, you know, whether it's a fraud or whether the church is what it claims to be. And emotions in spirit need to be put on hold until I can think it through. And that didn't turn out good for me. There were all sorts of problems with that, but that's what I was doing. And so if I had to neglect the spirit or neglect people or relationships or my own inner work or process, none of that mattered. And so that kind of, for me, looking back, made it in many ways a flawed endeavor in terms of how I handled it.
Sarah Collett [00:21:18] So you weren't aware of that at the time? No, that is all introspective reflecting now.
John Dehlin [00:21:25] I felt like God was. Was inspiring me to do this, and I can't even say that he wasn't, but I felt led to do this. I felt compelled to do this. And it was emotionally rewarding. Part of the. The other part of that ring that I. That I reflect on when I think about Frodo's ring is how gratifying it was to have all these people tell me I was important, have all these people tell me I was helping them, to have all these people say, you saved my marriage, you saved my life. Thank you so much. That becomes something for your ego. It becomes its feeding. It makes you feel powerful, it makes you feel needed, it makes you feel important. And so in ways, it feeds you emotionally and even spiritually. But I hadn't done the soul work to be in a really solid emotional place, to handle that well, you know, Yeah, I wasn't like Frodo. I wasn't humble and meek and peaceful. I was disturbed inside. And so I was carrying the ring as a really traumatized, inadequate, prideful, egotistical person.
Sarah Collett [00:22:44] I. That is so surprising to hear. I would never have guessed that you were feeling or that you were really kind of experiencing life through the prideful side of the lens, because I always felt like you did a good job of staying neutral, which is relatively rare because of all the podcasts I listen to, it is really hard to hear a neutral voice. Did you really. I mean, did you fight for that? Is that a personality trait? Did that come easy to you?
John Dehlin [00:23:18] Yeah, I was. I just decided from the very beginning that effectiveness was going to be my religion. As far as the podcast goes, whatever I did, I wanted to be maximally effective and have the biggest reach. And I knew the reason I got into it was because we had the. You know, there were several podcasts that already were existing at the time. There was the churchisnottrue.com there was this one called Catholic Mormon or something. There were a few anti Mormon podcasts that were in existence, and then there was the apologetic side. They weren't doing podcasts, but they were doing what they do. There was nobody in the middle trying to do a balance. So I didn't want to do something that was already being done. And most importantly, I really believed that people should be able to make their own decisions. And so I just had this relentless commitment to neutrality and objectivity, because that was the space that I felt like Mormonism needed most. And dialogue was kind of missing in action. I felt like Sunstone was missing in action in action. And so I never wanted to lose that. Now, looking back, there have been times where I absolutely lost that, especially last year interviewing Brent Gardner and Terrell Gibbons a little bit, and Charles Haley, Charles Harrell. And when I interviewed Grant Palmer for the second time, I was just angry by that time and not doing a very good job at hiding it. But it was hard to be neutral, and it was hard. But I do have that personality. I think when my parents got divorced, I think I assumed the role of the peacemaker in the home. And when my siblings would fight or my parents would fight, I would always be the one to try and heal and make it better and to help each side see each other's point of view. So I do think I have a bit of that pleaser, peacemaker kind of personality that maybe helped a little bit, but some would say I haven't been objective at all. So I guess it's a matter of perspective.
Sarah Collett [00:25:33] Yeah. So let me ask about. Did anyone ever accuse you of not being spiritually in tune? I mean, did anyone ever come to you and say, wow, you know, you seem to be prideful, or you seem to, you know what I mean? That the same. The sins that are associated with questioning, were you accused of that or did you kind of escape that?
John Dehlin [00:26:02] Well, the pride thing is something I look back on now. At the time, I never felt prideful. I felt like I was being humble. I felt like I was just doing God's will, you know, and helping people. So. So I guess I have to admit that the looking back, the pride thing and the lack of spiritual thing is something that I'm kind of reading back into my history a bit. I think that for sure, even before the podcast started, once I became enveloped by these difficult questions, Margi always felt like there was kind of a cloud over me. Like the light in my eyes had kind of gone out. And, like, I was always in my head and always stood doing. And even though I can pull out congeniality and warmness and friendliness, you know, as, like, a cloak I put on, I've been in a dark place in my soul for probably 20 years. But Margi saw it, and the kids saw it. I tried to hide it, but it definitely was there in my family. And my siblings, my brother, my sisters, they saw it. My mom and dad saw it. So, yeah, family saw it. And I. And every time they told me, I ignored it. I just said, this is important. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm helping people. There's all these people in need. So I just. It was like I just had plugs in my ears because I knew that this was what I needed to do. And all these people suffering, I got to carry that ring.
Sarah Collett [00:27:34] I'm surprised to hear you say. To reflect backwards and hear you say that, you know, and I. I would not have guessed that. Let me. Let me just kind of step aside here and ask. On a side note, a lot of people that go through the questioning process at some point deal with the question, is there a God at all? And a lot of people come to the conclusion that there is no God. They. They face atheism and they embrace it, or they decide that, you know, fundamentally they have the God gene or they crave God despite that question. When did that. Did that ever occur to you? And when did you really face that question?
John Dehlin [00:28:15] Yeah, it was around. It was after I had been away. I don't know that I totally have the years right, but let's just say from 2006 to 2000, 2007, I'd kind of stopped Mormon stories for a while and then gone inactive. And part of the reason I stopped Mormon stories was because I didn't want to take people out of the church, and I was worried that I couldn't be objective. And so I kind of stopped the podcast for a while, not wanting to lead people out of the church. And then I got this resurgence of optimism about it came back, and that's when I think, if the dates are right, that's when I interviewed Richard Bushman. And the Richard Bushman interview is really interesting. The way I got to interview him. Him was his nephew. Was. His great, great nephew was a listener. His name's Casey Kern. He's at MIT right now. And he just said, john, I love your podcast. Is there anything I can do to help? I happen to be Richard Bushman's great nephew, and I said, yeah, I'd love to get your, your uncle to be on the podcast. And I'm pretty sure I had tried and he had said no previously. And so Casey went to bat for me and told his uncle to do it. And I originally agreed with Richard to do 10 episodes, 10 topics, right. And I listed the 10 and I listed all the questions. And we had done all this work and he ended up asking to terminate the interviews after I had asked three questions. And that was a.
Guest [00:29:40] That was.
John Dehlin [00:29:41] Really bothered me, you know, and I didn't want to embarrass him, so I didn't make a big deal about that. And I don't blame him now because I think he gave me so much time. He gave me three or four or five hours. And for him, that was a lot of time. He was riding rough, stone rolling or just finished it. So it was really nice that he had done that. And now looking back, I'm grateful. But at the time it really bothered me. And that wasn't something that caused me to lose my faith, but it was really disturbing because he said, I just got the sense that he was kind of bothered. The questions that I was asking him in the context I was asking, that was so, so difficult, or I was coming from such a framework that was hostile and questioning that he didn't know how to answer in a satisfactory way. And, yeah, so this was during the time I was working at MIT and my faith started to unravel completely. And I do remember a day where I was sitting in my hotel room and I just said to myself, I'm not sure there's a God, and I'm not sure that there's anybody watching me. I'm not sure that there's any absolute standard for morality. I'm not sure there's an afterlife. And if that's the case, I wonder. I started questioning what was right and wrong. I started questioning my decision to have gotten married. When I did, I started questioning my decision to marry Margi. It was weird how all these dominoes just fell. It was just like Joseph Smith fell and then Jesus and then God, and then it went straight to marriage. And. And yeah, yeah, I just. There was a time for several, probably a couple years where I just. I felt like there probably wasn't a God. And that probably led up through my interview with John and Zilphal Larsen, probably as recent as last year. And that was pretty dark times.
Sarah Collett [00:31:51] So during. Now that we've established that, I was going to use the interview with the Larsons as kind of a marker. I listened to it just last night to refresh my. My memory of it. And you were fully deconstructed at that point. I mean, it really comes across in the interview that, I mean, you had kind of deconstructed all faith and spiritual experience to maybe chemicals in the brain and hormones and, you know, who knows what, and that there was a possibility of a spiritual, you know, like a God or a deity and a spiritual experience. But you're pretty deconstructed. I want to go back and ask. Now that we've addressed that point, we'll come back to it. There must have been lots of things I know you've talked a little bit about. You were investigated by your stake president at the time, during. Sometime during the past, those previous years. Can you talk about some of those things that were going on, how they affected you personally?
Personal Faith Deconstruction and Unraveling Belief
John Dehlin [00:32:54] Yeah, yeah. So by. Again, I don't know the dates for sure, but I want to say by 2009, by 2008, 2009, and definitely 2010, I was. My belief had pretty much unraveled, and I was pretty much. I had pretty much decided to leave the church completely. And after stale the s. And after activating the family again and getting everyone back in a couple, a year or two after that, I went inactive again. And that's when I. Yeah, I was in this dark place. And so what happened was this gentleman reached out to me who had been in general authority. So there's a member of like, the third quorum of the 70. He lives in Europe, and he had been a general authority for five years. And he reached out to me and said, hey, John, I'm having doubts and I'm struggling. And my country here in Western Europe is. There are a lot of people here in the country that are having problems, too. And we actually had a general authority come out and try and stage an emergency intervention because so many people are losing their faith over historical issues. And when the general authority came out, he probably offended more people than he helped in these little firesides that he held. And I started realizing that this was going to become a really big deal across Mormonism. And so. And so I have another friend that knew this general authority while he was serving a mission in this country. And we just got the idea, let's, you know, let's put together a survey of all the disaffected Mormons we can find and find out what's causing them to leave and how painful it is for them to leave. And I want to say that we did this. This in late 2010 and then in 2011. That's. That's what my. That's what my memory.
Sarah Collett [00:35:17] I think you're right, because I was actually part of the group when you did that, and I joined at the beginning of 2011. So.
John Dehlin [00:35:24] Yeah, and. And the sense we got was that the church was nervous that this former General authority was going to come clean. And. And we saw it as an opportunity to have a dialogue. And so we. We put this.
Guest [00:35:40] We.
John Dehlin [00:35:41] So that this. This former general authority said, john, I want to meet you in New York City. I want you to interview me for the podcast, and I want you to put together a presentation, and I'm going to invite one of the general authorities that I used to know who's still a general authority. And we're gonna have a meeting, and you're gonna present to the general authority, and. And we're going to start addressing this issue at the highest levels.
Sarah Collett [00:36:09] Wow. Were you intimidated at all, or were you just excited?
John Dehlin [00:36:12] I was stoked. This was just what I was waiting for. Now, I should add that prior to this time, my brother had been working at church headquarters as the Chief Information officer, and he worked regularly with the first presidency in the quorum of the 12 for, like, five, six years. He was the church's number one computer guy, head of all the systems, all the website. He was even over, as I understand it, you know, all the multimedia general conference kind of stuff. I don't know exactly what he was over, but he was CIO Chief Information Officer. And he just came to me one day and he said, hey, would you want to meet an apostle? And I was like, oh. And to be honest, this was in my dark time. And, you know, immediately my. My thoughts went to the wizard of Oz. And I was like, you know, do I want us. Do I want to meet the wizard and look and peek behind the curtain?
Sarah Collett [00:37:15] Right?
John Dehlin [00:37:15] And there was a big part of me that didn't want to, because even though intellectually I had sort of concluded for myself that the church wasn't what it claims to be, I didn't. Emotionally, I think I was avoiding having to emotionally feel that, because it's different to feel it. And when you sit with that apostle and you ask him to answer the hard questions and he can't come up, and this is what I was fantasizing. I'd think, okay, so what am I going to do? I'll ask him about the kinderhood plates, and I'll ask him about DNA, and I'll ask him about. About polyandry Is he gonna have any good answers? There are no good answers. So then I'm gonna ask him all these questions. It'll be awkward. I'll embarrass him. My brother will regret that I ever invited, that he ever invited me. And it'll just be a disaster. And I'll leave having looked behind the curtain and knew that everything was a fraud. And it'll just be sad and awful. So I, I think I first said no. I kind of just. I don't know what I'd ask him. I don't know what the point would be. But finally I said I would. And I thought really hard about what question do you ask an apostle if you've got an hour and a half?
Meetings with Church Leadership
Sarah Collett [00:38:22] Can I just ask, what was your brother's motivation? Why was he anxious to get you set up with an apostle?
John Dehlin [00:38:28] Because the particular apostle that he chose is just, from Joel's perspective, was just all about love and openness and, and inclusivity. And I think he felt like if I had exposure to that apostle, I would be motivated and inspired to stick with things and to maybe see things from a different perspective.
Sarah Collett [00:38:54] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:38:54] Yeah, so I agreed to meet with him. And we met for an hour and a half in a private little dining area in the Joseph Smith Memorial Building. And we talked about some amazing things. He was incredibly candid with me. I mentioned my mission experience in Guatemala with the, you know, kitty baptisms. And he talked all about, you know, Chile and all the problems that had happened in Chile where they had to close 30 stakes and how awful it was for church headquarters to have all these baptisms that were kind of invalid and how hard they work to teach good principles to the mission presidents, but that in some cases, kind of the mid level managers would get their own agendas and how difficult it was for him to, for them as the brethren to empower these people spiritually, to trust them. And yet, you know, because you empower them, you can't always control what they do and you can't always supervise everything. But just how much of a catastrophe that was for the church, and it happened in the Philippines. And he was really being honest with me. And I'm like, do you know who I am? You know, do you know what I do? But he didn't hold back. And then we talked about, you know, homosexuality and same sex attraction. He was totally compassionate about that. He was completely loving and he said the church needs to get out of the business of claiming whether it's biological or not or whether it's a choice or not, and retreat just to the theological grounds because, you know, the words he said was the last thing we want in the church is another Copernican or a Galilean moment. And what I thought, what I figured he meant by that was we don't want to say the, the sun revolves around the earth like the Catholic Church did to then have to eat crow and change its people position. But that wasn't it. He also showed deep love and concern and sophistication about these issues. And so that was really. And then the final thing I asked him, I just had one real question and I just said, and I just decided I was going to make this list of like all the issues I had ever struggled with. And so I said, look, I'm representing a large group of people who have really struggled on a number of issues. Multiple versions of the first vision, you know, Book of Abraham, Peepstones, polyandry, you know, DNA in the book. And I tried to list like every possible. And I was like looking at him to see if he'd flinch or like act surprised. He didn't flinch at all. And then I just said, but my question is we want to figure out a way to stay. We want to stay in the church, but we don't know if we're wanted and we don't know. We don't know how to stay in the church and be authentic. And so that was the question I asked him. I had one question. I said, do you want us in the church or not? And man, I almost felt like he like lifted himself off the chair, like rose from the chair like three inches. And he said, if the church is a tent, this is how I'm remembering it. If the church is a tent. He said, I don't care if you're in the farthest corner of the tent, as far in the back side of the tent as possible. I don't even care if your backside is halfway out of the tent. And he kind of like put his, you know, I remember him kind of, we want you in this church, you know. And you know, and he said, I'm not going to lie to you, you know, if you throw a stone into the pond, the ripples are closest at the center. And he said, I think that you'll get the most fulfillment and joy and happiness in your life if you're living the gospel fully and believing it fully. But if you're on the periphery and you can't believe it fully, there's still a place for you here. All we ask, he said, all we ask is that if you have issues with the church, that you don't purchase a printing press. Those were. That's the. I remember him using kind of that metaphor, like, don't go out and buy a printing press and publicize to the world your problems. Can you just kind of work those out and not disrupt other people's experiences? He wasn't being deceitful or he was saying, be respectful and sensitive to others. The second thing he said was, he said, all we ask is that you. If you. If. And now we kind of switch the tent metaphor. He said, if you and your family live in a tent, all we ask is that you point the flap of your tent in the direction of the prophet and keep the flaps open. Not that you necessarily believe and obey everything, but that you'll. You'll look to us for and listen and be open to the guidance and the feedback we give. If you're willing to be open to that and to, you know, to do your best not to disrupt everybody. We want you in this church. And I just. I left that. I left that engagement just so excited because I could tell he knew all the heart issues. He was sophisticated about them, and he said, we want you. So that was really invigorating for me.
Sarah Collett [00:44:20] Do you look back on it? I know this is such a classic Mormon question, but I think a lot of people will want to know. Did you feel the spirit, quote, unquote, while he was speaking?
John Dehlin [00:44:30] Totally. He was. I mean, there was. There was charisma there for sure. There was charm, wit, and sharp intellect, for sure. But, yeah, good man. Loving, caring man, for sure, and spiritual man, you know, And I think at the time, again, I wasn't into spiritual stuff because I just. It had all got distorted, but absolutely.
Sarah Collett [00:45:01] So when he said that you. That he wanted you to turn your tent towards the prophet, did. Did you experience cognitive dissonance when he was saying that, or did you feel like you were on board with what he was saying at the time?
John Dehlin [00:45:14] No, I left feeling on board. I'm like, we can do this. We can do this. And what was hard about that was a few months later, he gave a general conference talk that was devastating. It was just. It was pounding the pulpit. It was addressing some of the core issues that caused many to leave. And it was like a different person. It was like that person that I had lunch with is not the person who just gave that talk. That talk was completely invalidating. That talk showed a lot of insensitivity to the issues that we're facing. And it really confused me. It really discouraged me because I thought. I thought he was going to be giving the other talk. Like, I had this lunch with this guy who represents a lot of people who are in pain, and I want you to know that we love you and we want you in this church. And that's the talk I thought he was going to be giving. But that's not the talk he gave. He gave the talk that was kind of re. Entrenching the literalistic position. And so that was really difficult for me.
Sarah Collett [00:46:23] Is it still difficult for you?
John Dehlin [00:46:25] Well, I got to have a second lunch with him.
Guest [00:46:28] Oh.
John Dehlin [00:46:29] So I had that second lunch, and to be honest, it was kind of just informal and rambly for the first hour, hour and a half.
Sarah Collett [00:46:37] But before we go to that second lunch, can you set up how it came to be that you're sitting down again with this same general authority? Was it another. Your brother set it up, or how did it happen?
John Dehlin [00:46:47] The first time, as I understand it, Joel invited me to General conference and wanted to introduce me to this apostle backstage. And for some reason, the apostle couldn't do it. So I went to General Conference. But I did meet the apostle, and I never knew that. But later, the apostle said to Joel, hey, I never got to meet your brother. Why don't we. Why don't we have lunch? So the first one. That's how it happened. The second one, I think he just said to my brother has, how's Johnny doing? How's Big John? He called me Big John. How's Big John doing? And Joel's like, fine. He's like, why don't we do a lunch? You know? And I should say, I didn't tell you this. In both the lunches, in the middle of the lunch, he, like, halted me and he said, I want you to know I'm grateful for what you're doing. Both the launches. I appreciate it. You're doing an important thing. One of the lunches even kind of back slapped us both and said, I wish the church had 100,000 John and Joel Delins. You know, just very, very complimentary and warm and affirming. Never was there any. This is after Grant Palmer. This is after all that the Toscanos. Never was there any, like, you need to be careful or what you're doing is dangerous. And my brother cautioned me not to read too much into that because he's a busy man. And Joel's feeling was he probably didn't know a lot about what I was doing or the details.
Sarah Collett [00:48:18] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:48:19] But he did Say that on both occasions, which to me, my old early believing self was like, well, if an apostle says that, I must be doing something good or he wouldn't feel inspired to say that, you know? And so anyway. Yeah. So that second lunch, was there a question you had about.
Sarah Collett [00:48:40] Oh, no, I just. I just wanted to know how it. Yeah, it came about.
John Dehlin [00:48:43] I think he requested the second lunch. And.
Sarah Collett [00:48:45] And how far. How much time would you say?
John Dehlin [00:48:48] A year apart?
Sarah Collett [00:48:49] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:48:50] Not totally sure on that. But the second lunch, I just. I. I was trying to think of a new question to ask, and I didn't want to say, why'd you give that awful talk? Right, right. So I kind of hinted around that. And I said, you know, sometimes we can make enemies the way that we choose our rhetoric, you know, But I. I don't even know that he knew I was talking about his talk, but I was. There were points where I was trying to say I could help you guys. Like, I don't know who benefited from that, you know, because the believers already believed. And now all the people who are struggling are just angrier. So who have you helped? You know, But I wasn't that candid. I didn't want to embarrass him or my brother. So the question that I got out was, I'm seeing all these marriages fall apart because of the church, where one believes and one doesn't, and then the believer says, kicks the unbeliever out. We're dividing families. The church is supposed to be about families. We're dividing them. This is a huge problem, and it's ripping children, families apart. And can we do something about it? You know, and he felt he cared. But I could tell I got some insight into how difficult it is to be an apostle, because the feedback I got was, you can't tell people what to do in their marriages. You can't tell a believing spouse to stay with a disbelieving spouse. It's not that easy. As soon as you tell people what to do, then they hold you liable and you're a prophet or prophet, certain revelator. So, you know, I got a bit of a sense in how complicated that job is, because what if the spouse is abusive or ends up being an abusive. But, you know, he had made some declaration, don't leave your spouse. You know, So I got the sense that they just can't. It's not that simple to just make these blanket declarations that everyone's supposed to follow. And I was kind of disappointed by that. But looking back, you know, he's a thoughtful man trying to do his best and he knows what, what is useful and what isn't. And, but I left very disappointed because what I wanted to hear him say is, yes, my next general conference talk, I will give a talk and tell believing spouses to love and support and affirm their non believing spouses. And you know, that didn't happen, right? And that was our last communication. We haven't communicated since then. So, so I, I tell you that story because I. But I still felt like he liked what I was doing and supported it. And so when this other general authority reaches out to me and wants to arrange this thing in New York. So we do, we put out this survey, like 3,000 people, you know, complete it. I get like five PhDs to all help me crunch the data and do all the statistical analysis. And then I got disinvited from the meeting. So the meeting happened. The former general authority met with the general authority and a couple other people that you would know, but I'm not going to name names, and they had the meeting.
Sarah Collett [00:51:54] Now why were you disinvited? Are you willing to say or do you know?
John Dehlin [00:52:00] I think that I was viewed as dangerous. I think that I was viewed as someone who can communicate with a lot of people. Can they trust me? Can they be candid? And to be honest, this was the first time the former general authority had met with the current general authority. And they probably had things to share that I didn't need to be listening to or reporting on the side. I mean, it makes sense. And I hadn't, you know, I think what any organization or marriage values most is loyalty. And I hadn't shown unquestioning loyalty. And so to be at a meeting at that high level, I just hadn't managed my political capital in a way to where they would want to trust me, frankly, because I was at the time it was, if I had my loyalties, it's with the people who are struggling and I'll go down with them before I stand up for a bureaucratic, authoritarian, disingenuous church. If I have to pick, I don't want to pick, but if I have to, I'm going with them, not you. You know, and I think that's how I was feeling. I think they sensed it and I got disinvited. So they, so they took all my analysis and all my data and all this stuff and it was presented to the general authority. And the feedback was, is that the general authority was just like his jaw was on the table because of the high Education levels of the people who were leaving because of the high, you know, the disproportionate high levels of church service that these people, these were huge percentage that served in bishoprics. There were a number of stake presidents, former mission presidents, and again one general authority. And then all these really returned missionary, active, devout people. It was almost as if the disaffected were the most devout in their church lives before they became disaffected. And they were highly educated and very, very affluent on average. And I think all that, I don't think the issues like, you know, peep stones or kinderhook plates were troubling to this general authority, but the demographics and the severity and the amount of pain, absolutely, I think left its mark.
Sarah Collett [00:54:17] So who do you think he thought was leaving the church?
John Dehlin [00:54:20] I don't know because I wasn't there. But I, I think he probably thought it was just the average church member or, you know, maybe the less committed. You know, he's highly educated and he worked with a lot of highly educated people. So I don't think he associated intellect and study with disaffection. And I definitely don't think he. And I think there's a lot of wealthy people, Osmonds, Steve Young, Stephen Covey, Marriott's, you know, lots of really wealthy, successful, educated people are very, well, the Huntsman's well entrenched in the church.
Sarah Collett [00:54:57] So, so maybe he was assuming that it were. That it was people that had not necessarily been as active and as faithful. Okay, I see what you're saying.
John Dehlin [00:55:05] And as educated and as affluent. I think that all came together later. I, I can tell you, but, I mean, I can't tell you much about the meeting that I ended up having with this other general authority. But the words that came out of his mouth were best and brightest are leaving. And he had tears in his eyes when he said it.
Tensions with General Authorities
Sarah Collett [00:55:25] So because you weren't there, I'm sure that all the information you got from the meeting was just reported to you. But was the impression of the general authority positive? Did people walk away from that meeting feeling. Feeling like it. He was affected in the right way? Totally.
John Dehlin [00:55:42] And this is a general authority who is just love. He is just empathy and love. Very beloved. And so, yeah, in fact, we were set to go to Peggy Fletcher Stack or the Salt Lake Tribune with the results of the survey immediately. It was like, we will wait until this meeting and then we're going to release. And he immediately said, please, please don't publish these results because I want to bring them to Salt Lake City. And I want to present them to the Brethren. And if you go public with this, it'll be like when we almost had an apology on the blacks, you know, five, 10 years ago, and then it got leaked to the press and the Brethren scuttled it because they never want to look like they're reacting to pressure, because that, you know, I don't want to. Sounds cynical about that, but I don't think they ever want to appear like they're just caving to public pressure. Or.
Sarah Collett [00:56:35] Did he actually express that to you, or is that you imprinting what you think?
John Dehlin [00:56:41] Well, I only know what was reported to me through the people that were there.
Sarah Collett [00:56:45] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:56:45] But what was expressed was, this will be more impactful with the Brethren if it isn't made public beforehand.
Sarah Collett [00:56:52] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:56:52] So we sat on the results of that survey months and months and months. And I was. And I was. To be honest, this is where the ring. You know, how when. When. When Sam asked for the ring back from Frodo, he got angry and a little bit violent. This is where the ego starts popping in. I was hurt that I couldn't be at that meeting. I was hurt that I was disinvited. I was hurt that all the work that I had done was being presented, but I couldn't come to the presentation. And then I was hurt that they were going to go have this important conversation in Salt Lake City and that I wasn't going to be invited to that either. And it was pride. It was prideful. I'm embarrassed, but I was. I was angry, and I started getting really impatient, and I wanted to make this big splash, you know, like, oh, well, we're going to hit the church hard with this news, and it's going to send a shockwave. And that was kind of my mode. It was just anger and bitterness and frustration and shock. It reminds me of when I asked Margaret Toscano why the September Six were so strident. And she. I don't know if you remember the interview, but she said, if you're a kid sitting in the back seat and you're burning up and it's hot and you say, hey, mom and dad, can you roll down the windows or turn on the air conditioner? And they don't hear you, and then you talk a little bit louder and they don't hear you, and then you talk a lot louder and they still, still don't hear you, at some point you're going to scream because you're burning up and they're not listening. And the only way to get their attention is to scream. And carrying that ring, carrying everybody's pain, thinking that I was important, thinking that I had this mission on the earth to save everybody. You know, I started getting really angry and impatient. And so eventually it was around the turn of the year, and I'm thinking, this is 2011. I just. I sent a message to these people, and I said, tell them I'm going to go public with the data because I'm sick of waiting. You said it would be like, a month. It's been like, four. Like, I'm sick of waiting. And just out of the blue, this general authority said, can we meet for lunch?
Sarah Collett [00:58:57] The same general authority that had been in the meeting?
John Dehlin [00:58:59] Yeah.
Sarah Collett [00:58:59] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:59:00] Yep. And so he came to Logan, just, you know, I don't know if he had other engagements, but he came and we had lunch for two hours, and. And it was amazing. It was 40 times more rewarding than my. My meeting with the apostle, because the apostle talked for most of the time, and he was awesome. But this. This general authority just asked a thousand questions. He asked so many questions. I was uncomfortable. You know, I was just like,
Sarah Collett [00:59:33] why
John Dehlin [00:59:33] are you asking me all these questions? You know, what are you trying to find out? You know? He asked me about the Mormon Stories communities. He asked me about what my goals were with Mormon Stories. He asked about the podcast, how many people were listening. He asked how it's affected my family. He asked what I've learned from the people who have been struggling. He even said, if you. I'll be meeting with the Brethren next week. If you had three things you wanted to communicate to them, what would you want to say? Like, I was just. It was almost stunning to me. I don't think I said anything intelligent because I was so flabbergasted by his love. He cried, like, three times in the interview. He was sincere. He cared. It was amazing.
Sarah Collett [01:00:16] So when you went into the lunch you were talking about, you were coming from kind of this place of frustration and anger. Did you go into the lunch, that lunch, with that same anger? Did you prepare yourself?
John Dehlin [01:00:25] Totally. I was. Totally. But I. I put on. I put on the congeniality like I had learned to do, and I put on the diplomacy because effectiveness was my goal. And I tried to find ways to engage constructively, and this was like a moment of leverage or power, and I. But I didn't want to blow it and be strident, so I. I tried really hard to be civil and dependent, diplomatic and loving and compassionate. And I don't want to say that that's all fake for me. But again, I've been all along, I've been dealing with the devil and the angel, not knowing who to listen to at different times, wanting to listen to both. And by that time, I was just really angry. And I was angry that I'd been cut out of the process, but I was really positive and constructive. And I left again the meeting. He said, you know, he left the meeting saying, I don't know if there's anything I can do, but I'll try. And then within a small amount of time, he ended up calling together some of the most important people in places that can make influence in the church. And the data was presented at church headquarters to these people.
Sarah Collett [01:01:39] Wow. And how do you know?
John Dehlin [01:01:42] Because the people who were in the meeting previously, previously, some of them got to go to the meeting at church headquarters.
Sarah Collett [01:01:51] Then. Did you release the information after that happened?
John Dehlin [01:01:55] He asked me to keep it a little bit longer. And I just, again, my prideful self, I lost patience and I released it after he had asked me to hold on to it longer. And I regret that. And nobody really cared. Really, nobody cared. Like, why did I do that? Why didn't I just let that process unfold? But I just was angry. So. So that's what led up to the UVU presentation that I. That I gave. I think that was in 2012, but I'm. Early 2012, but I'm.
Sarah Collett [01:02:30] Was it before or after John and the Larsen interview?
John Dehlin [01:02:35] I think the Larsen interview would have come after.
Sarah Collett [01:02:38] Yeah. So it was 2011, because you did the interview in January of 2012.
John Dehlin [01:02:42] Okay, that's probably right.
Sarah Collett [01:02:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:02:44] Yeah. So. So, yeah, So I released the data and then we crunched it some more, and then I presented the results of that data at that UVU conference with.
Sarah Collett [01:02:56] Right.
John Dehlin [01:02:56] And this is where the whole Daniel Peterson thing comes in.
Guest [01:02:59] Come thou fount of every blessing to my heart to sing Thy grace.
John Dehlin [01:03:09] Thank you for joining us today on a Thoughtful Faith. To discuss this podcast, check us out@a thoughtfulfaith.org the music from this podcast was generously donated by Lisa Frazier. Hear more from her at lisafraser.com Melody
Guest [01:03:24] your S by flaming tones above I'll praise the mountain I'm fixed upon it Mount of thy. Here I raise my e me s hither By Thy help I come and I hope by Thy good pleasure Safely to arrive at home. Jesus saw me with a stranger Wandering from the form of God he to rescue me from danger Insupport his precious blood O to grace how great a debtor delion comes straight to be Let that goodness like a fetter Bind my wondering heart to me Prone to wonder Prone to live the God I love here's my heart who take and seal it Seal it For thy court is above O prone to wonder Lord, I feel it Prone to thee the God I love oh, here's my heart we'll take every single Before I.
The Maxwell Institute Controversy
Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 398
Sarah Collett [00:00:01] Come, thou fount of every blessing Tune my heart to sing thy grace.
John Dehlin [00:00:11] A Thoughtful Faith Podcast is a production of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to A Thoughtful Faith are tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@athoughtfulfaith.org. So what happened was. So I'd had all these positive experiences with general authorities. I knew that they felt my pain. I knew that they felt like these issues were legitimate. And so in this process, I get an email out of the blue, and it's from this guy, and he says, I go to church with someone who works directly for Daniel Peterson in the Maxwell Institute, and he told me that the Maxwell Institute has commissioned a hit piece. And he called it a hit piece on you. He said, it's over 100 pages footnoted, and it's all about character assassination. It's all about trying to expose you as a fraud, trying to expose you as duplicitous, trying to expose you as someone who's trying to. A wolf in sheep's clothing, trying to lead the people astray, trying to expose you as an Antichrist, basically.
Sarah Collett [00:01:36] So
John Dehlin [00:01:38] I was like, what? I couldn't believe it. And after having talked to the apostle and the general authority and all the positive things they had said to me, I couldn't believe that this is something that the Church would want its name on. Right. Because they were all about, how do we reduce the pain? How do we solve these problems? Thank you for the good work you're doing to help us. They were using my data and my research to help them solve their problems. Why would the Church want to attack me when I'm helping them? So it didn't make sense. And it felt out of the spirit of what these two general authorities would want. It just felt like they would never bless this. And so I'd been trying to interview Daniel Peterson for years, and he would. For a while, he would decline, and then he would just stop answering my emails. So I had gone like 2 or 3 years emailing Daniel Peterson. This is my memory. I could be wrong, but my memory is. And I've gone back to look. I couldn't find a response from Daniel Peterson within three or four years of this episode, with many attempts at reaching out to him. So I. I had no confidence that if I just sent Daniel Peterson an email and said, hey, I'm not sure you should do this or are you sure you want to do this or can I see the article or will you give me a chance to respond? And it sounded like the article was in its final editing stages for being published. And so I just, I said, I decided what I would do is I would email Daniel Peterson and I would copy this general authority that I just had, had these awesome meetings with. And I would say, Daniel Peterson, is this true what I've heard? And I just said, if it's true, I don't think this is a good move. And I was thinking about it from several perspectives. One is that I had done this survey and one of the clear findings in this survey, when I asked people what made them leave, they would say fair and farms accelerated my disaffection from the church. Initially, I found their answers valuable, but over time, the fact that they would instead of really give substantive answers, the fact that they would attack the people asking the questions, that showed me that they didn't have good arguments, right? And the arguments that they did give were bad. And being mean spirited and unchristlike is the worst possible way to stand up for what Christ represented. And so I had all this data, these people telling me apologists damaging my testimony. And they would name Daniel Peterson by name and Lou Midgley by name. And so I still have the angel on my shoulder, right? The devil's saying, you know, burn the thing down. The devil's saying, all press is good press. This is a good thing for you. Let farms and fair attack you because that'll just make more people know about you, right? That's what the devil was saying. But the angel was saying, you love this church and you love BYU. I graduated from BYU and there are all these 20, 30,000 people that listen to the podcast who feel like you've helped them stay in the church. And so if with BYU's name and the church's printing press, they're going to come and eviscerate and attack the one person, that many, and this is pride and it's not healthy, but the person that many saw as a lifeline to their being able to stay in the church. Because I did start stale. Yes, I can show you hundreds and even thousands of emails where people say I did help them stay in the church. All those people are going to say, well, if the church doesn't want John, if the church is going to call John an anti Mormon, if the church is going to attacked John number one, that's a further sign they don't have anything substantive to stand on. But number two, I'm not, I don't want to be a part of it. I just, I felt like that's what the result was going to be. So this wasn't me trying to suppress criticism. I'm criticized all over the place. I'm used to it. This wasn't me trying to stop true academic inquiry. This was me honestly listening to that angel say, this is going to harm byu, this is going to harm farms, this is going to harm the church, this is going to harm apologetics, and this is going to harm you and it's going to harm your family and it's going to harm all these people who kind of are thinking there's a lifeline. And so that's that. So that. So all I did was email Daniel Peterson, copy the general authority and say, are you sure you want to do this? Right? And I, what in the email did
Sarah Collett [00:06:26] you expect express that you say this is, this is.
John Dehlin [00:06:29] I pasted, I pasted the open ended responses from the survey saying that these tactics damage faith. I pasted those into the email.
Sarah Collett [00:06:39] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:06:40] I just said, this is going to be a lose, lose for everyone. That's what I said. So I didn't hear back. Well, Daniel Peterson did write back and it was like, my brother's died, you know, this is awful and you're blackmailing me. And you know, the summary that I would give is just, he sort of said, stick it. It's just like, you're not going to intimidate me. And that was it. Didn't get anything else for Daniel Peterson. So I felt like he was going to go ahead with it. Then I go to the UVU conference where I present the findings of the survey that I developed for the church, that the church was using and presenting to its own officials. Right. And Lou Midgley comes up after the presentation and he just starts yelling at me, wagging his finger in my face. And he started talking about a missionary who died on my mission, while I was on my mission. So there was this elder, Elder Bartholomew. We had been companions, zone leaders together. Later he transferred to a different zone and while he was on another zone, he died in a boating accident and they never found his body. And he started the way I, the way I understood. Lou Midgley's line of questioning was that in this article that they were preparing for me, he was going to try and tie me to the death of a missionary. Right.
Sarah Collett [00:08:04] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:08:05] And then he started saying, you knew Grant Palmer back when you were byu. Right? Because he had this whole, this whole Paul Pry thing. That they did with Grant Palmer and. And accusing Grant Palmer of doing all this fraudulent stuff where he faked believing so that he could keep his salary. And he wrote under these pseudonyms. And they had this whole conspiracy theory that may or may not have been true. But what was bizarre is that he was claiming that I was in conspiracy with Grant Palmer in the early 90s, before I'd ever heard of Grant Palmer's name or read any of these difficult books like Von Brody or Michael Quinn or any of that stuff. I was still a Rush Limbaugh homophobic conservative when I was at byu, though I had some liberal leanings, right? And so Litjani Midgley was making it sound like he was gonna tie me to the death of a missionary on my mission, tie me to Grant Palmer in the early 90s. And then he started saying threatening things about contacting my bishop and my stake president and making it sound like he was gonna. They were gonna come after me. They were gonna come after my church membership. And it felt awful. It felt like the. Just felt like the attack dogs were out and they were gonna kneecap me, you know, and, you know, I didn't know what to do because I wasn't gonna be slandered. And people read that stuff and it's gonna have BYU's name on it and the church's name on it. That's devastating, especially if they're going to just tell a bunch of lies. And so I. I called a couple distinguished ambassadors of Mormonism and asked them what I should do, and they said, you need to call the general authority, use my name and have a conversation with them. Because he hadn't responded to my email. And so I didn't. I didn't do anything other than call the general authority. He took my call, contact called me back, and I said, this is what I know, that this article is being planned, and this is how Lou Midgley treated me. And this is what they were saying. And I just want you to know that I think everyone's going to lose if they publish this article. And I've been trying to help you, you know, and the general authority said, I'll take care of it. And if you don't hear back from me, it's because it's taken care of. And rumor was that an apostle got involved, may have been the same apostle that I had had lunch with, I don't know. But what I know is that. Is that stuff was communicated from several general authorities to the head of the Maxwell Institute. The head of the Maxwell Institute sat Lou Midgley and Daniel Peterson down and said, we're not going to publish this article. And it wasn't because I made some legal threat, I didn't have a lawyer and threaten to sue. I did say that if they slander me, I'm not going to just sit by and be accused of the death of a missionary or associations with people that I didn't even know. But I didn't threaten to sue. I wasn't trying to suppress, to save myself. I was trying to think about how this would help anybody and I couldn't figure it out. And I just said, is this really how you want to handle things as a church? And they made that decision.
Sarah Collett [00:11:20] Right.
John Dehlin [00:11:20] And Daniel Peterson says, oh well, no one ever read the article. Well, he certainly could have sent it to me. He certainly could have let me read it. He could have given me a chance to respond, but he didn't want to. And so it's his fault that no one read the article. And if his employee, if someone working for him tells me it's a hit piece and that it's detestable and this person actually sent me the five page memoir that they sent to the head of the Maxwell Institute protesting the publishing of this paper. If that's coming from the inside of the Maxwell Institute, then I don't think I'm on shaky ground raising questions about whether this is good for everybody involved. And it turns out that for the Maxwell Institute and for these general authorities, it was clear that this paper wasn't going to do anyone any good.
Sarah Collett [00:12:10] Let me, I want to go back and ask a few questions about the situation. From your perspective. Being someone who had already experienced criticism, I'm sure from both sides, do you feel like in terms of the amount of scrutiny and criticism that you received during the situation with the Maxwell Institute and Dan Peterson, that it got, it reached its worst level? Were you prepared for it or had you already kind of weathered the storm of the debate?
John Dehlin [00:12:43] But by the time of all this, I was really spiritually sick. I was, I was, I was trying to save the world with these conferences and communities. I was emotionally detached from myself. I was emotionally detached from my wife and kids. I was playing the role. I was doing my duty as a husband and a father. But I was checked out emotionally and I was checked out spiritually. I was totally spiritually malnourished and neglecting that side of me. And I was angry and it's like I'd put the ring on and I was standing in full fury ready to take down anybody who opposed me. And so I was simultaneously sick inside, but, like, full of righteous indignation. And it was really for my soul. It was a sickening, sad place to be. And as I look back, I realize that one of the reasons I've been so angry at the apologists is because I've been doing so much of what I accuse them of doing, that I've been careless, that I've given bad answers, that I've been disrespectful, that I've attacked and disrespected belief. And, you know, I was. It was like a mirror. They were a mirror of me just on different sides of the. Of the poll. I hadn't spent enough time really, with. With thoughtful believers and never showed enough respect to. To credible belief. And I think that, you know, you're only angry sometimes when you see in others your own deficiencies that you hate about yourself. And I'm guilty of that. And I'm as much of a demagogue. I've been as much of a demagogue as Daniel Peterson or Lou Midgley in my own way, with the veneer of sincerity and with objectivity. And at the time, I felt like I was sincere, but I feel like in the soul, I wasn't in a healthy place. So I was not operating from a centered, healthy place. I was operating from a broken, angry place.
Leaving Church Attendance and Building Community
Sarah Collett [00:14:47] Okay, so now we need to really dive into that, if you don't mind. One of the questions that occurred to me as you were speaking earlier, and it goes back to that question of looking the existence of God in the face and really wondering if there's a God. Did you maintain any practice of spiritual development during that time? Were you in a place of saying prayers or did you look for or experience things from a spiritual perspective or. I mean, how was that side of your. Of your living going?
John Dehlin [00:15:26] I stopped going to church for the most part. I'd stopped paying tithing. I stopped. Didn't read the scriptures, stopped praying, stopped going to the temple. And I was even questioning basic morality and whether I wanted to stay married and whether I wanted to stay committed to my family. I mean, I was as estranged and ostracized spirit, spiritually, morally as I could be. I mean, I still kept most of the commandments, but no, I was completely spiritually neglectful and malnourished and emotionally disconnected
Sarah Collett [00:16:05] from everybody, even from the perspective of, like, spiritual practices outside of Mormonism. So it wasn't like you were trying to replace that with, like, meditation or anything like that.
John Dehlin [00:16:15] No. In our family. Family, you know, there are phases, but when we went inactive for the very first time, we were very committed to keeping all the best of Mormonism. So we kept having family home evening. I kept paying tithing, but it was to charitable institutions instead of the church. We kept having spiritual thoughts, singing, you know, hymns or whatever. We kept having spiritual thoughts with our kids. I was trying to read Eckhart Tolle and do mindfulness and we would have nature walks and try and connect with nature. And we worked really hard to supplement our spirituality. But you know, this is one of the conclusions that I came to. But when you're on your own and especially when you haven't done the work, the soul work emotionally and spiritually yourself, it's hard to maintain that for the family. So yeah, I wouldn't say I had never prayed or never picked up the scriptures or never did spiritual things, but I started trying to do that. But because I was around so many people in pain, always on a conquest, always so busy because remember I'm getting my PhD working full time and holding international conferences and taking phone calls and having lunches and dinners with everyone who's in pain. And I just, I completely, it's like I wasn't spiritually or emotionally in tuned and I was running from myself. And so the way I would run for myself is to work extra hard, believe that I was doing this important mission, saving the world, helping everyone else, but from a broken place where inside I was totally decaying spiritually and emotionally.
Sarah Collett [00:18:02] Okay, I want to ask the question then you mentioned how you had started doing all of these conferences and that maybe you were, were you alluding to this idea that you were trying to use these conferences as a way to establish some sort of like spiritual community again or, I mean, how did the Mormon conference.
John Dehlin [00:18:28] Absolutely.
Sarah Collett [00:18:29] Okay, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:18:30] You know, the angel, you know, the devil on my shoulder would say burn it all down, but the angel said it's not ethical to just deconstruct everyone's beliefs and then not leave them with anything to replace it. And that's what exposure to this stuff does. I don't take responsibility that people struggle in their faith after listening to Mormon stories, stories, because I didn't, I didn't tell the first vision in nine different ways. That was Joseph. And I didn't translate with a stone in a hat or marry 14 year olds or incorporate Masonic things into the temple. Like that's just fact. You know, I didn't, I, I didn't establish the DNA of the Native Americans or you know, neglect to put pre Columbian Horses on America like that. Just. I didn't do any of that. That's just what I learned. And so, you know, I've never wanted to intentionally lead people astray, but I. But I'm aware that that's what happens when you learn this stuff, because that's what I struggled with, right? So the angel on my shoulder said, no, you want humanity to advance. You don't want people to just throw their morality away. I started seeing people and I was doing it. You know, it's like there's this weird thing that happens when you lose your. When you lose your faith in Mormonism. You immediately start questioning your morality.
Sarah Collett [00:20:04] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:20:04] I never had sex before I was married. I've only had sex with one person. Like, I don't know anything. What if sex is way better with other people or in other ways or. What am I missing? Is alcohol cool? Like, I've still never tried alcohol, but I was like, what if that's really fun and interesting? Like. And I just started saying, there's this whole world out there that I haven't experienced. And maybe I wouldn't. I wouldn't have married Margi if I, you know, if I had to do all over again. And I, you know, I. Maybe my family would be better off if Margi and I were split because, you know, because, you know, we'd be getting along better. Why weren't we getting along? Because I was totally emotionally disconnected. But you start thinking these things and you start wondering, wow, well, these other women are attractive, or experimenting sexually, and you start thinking about this whole world and you see these people sort of. It reminds me of the Lehigh's dream and the. I don't know, the great and spacious building, right? You start seeing all this stuff and. And it's enticing and it looks fun, but, you know, the good Mormon boy in me and the angel on my shoulder would always say, that's dangerous, that's scary. You don't want to go there. And so. And you don't want to lead people there. And that's what it felt like was happening. All these people were just checking out of the church, and then they were dropping their spouse and they were sleeping around and drinking and doing drugs and doing all this scary stuff. And I just felt irresponsible. I felt like that was irresponsible. So I started these communities thinking, I'm not trying to create a religion because there's no theology or doctrine here, and I don't want to be a prophet. That was a broken model in my mind. But somebody's got to do it. Somebody's got to bring these people together to support each other. And so the idea behind the conferences and the communities was let's let people in Houston who are struggling support. Support each other, lets people in London support each other, and let's create these conferences where it's inspirational, it's tell your story, and let's sing hymns and say prayers and still be inspirational. And if it's secular, let's have it be spiritual and moral at the same time. And I was just trying to experiment and model sort of post literalistic, secular spirituality and community, right? Because why did these people deserve to no longer get casseroles when they have cancer or their wife's pregnant? Just because they learned these things about the church that made them not be able to participate? It felt unfair that they automatically got unplugged from that social resource. So I'd say let's create that social resource in 90 cities across the world and let's bring general conferences to them where they can feel inspired and uplifted and begin to construct for themselves a positive, moral, even spiritual, secular, post Mormonism. And that was the goal behind it.
Navigating Inner Conflict and Community Dynamics
Sarah Collett [00:23:06] So I need to ask a few questions about your own thought process. I assume, because you have the devil and the. The angel on your shoulder the whole time, that even as you're kind of exploring the ideas of letting go of kind of the morals that you've always held on to, that, you know, the angel is trying to pull you back. You know, I mean, that must have created quite a bit of cognitive dissonance. Did you discuss that with Markie? Did you talk about that with your wife? Was it. Was it all internal? Was she aware of that struggle that was going on?
John Dehlin [00:23:41] Well, what. What started happening was I. I kind of just threw down the gauntlet with Margi and I. She had been really patient up to a point in Mormon stories, but then it was just I wasn't emotionally available to her or the kids. I was physically available. I'd read the kids stories, put them to bed. I would get up early and help make breakfast. I would, you know, I would do the fatherly things, but at dinner, they'd be talking and my mind would be somewhere else or, you know, on the weekends or. I was rarely listening. I was rarely paying attention. I was just totally mentally about saving the world. So at some point, Margi was just like, this is getting old, and I don't like where you're going spiritually and emotionally. I don't like the feel of Our family. And I think you're neglecting some really important things. And frankly, you're giving the best to everyone else and you're kind of leaving us with the scraps. I've heard how you talk to the people you talk to on the phone and in dinner and lunch, and you're kind of irritable at home and distant and detached. And at some point she just said, I wish you would stop this. And I was so, so proud and arrogant. I was just like, no, this is take it or leave it. It's Mormon stories. I'm saving the world. You can either get on board with me or just support me, but this is what I'm doing. And it's awful. I'm so embarrassed that. And I wasn't mean like that. Like, it was. It was a respectful conversation. It was more like, come on, sweetie, this is what I meant to do. And please support me in this because of all this pain. And. And at some point she just said, okay, you know, and that's when I started traveling all the time and being gone all the time, and I really turned it on. But it. It became worse and worse. I just became more and more distant, more and more irritable. It's like I'd worn that ring and I was becoming more and more consumed by pride and ego and power and anger. And it reached a point where, you know, we basically had to start asking the question, do we want to stay married? And I think I was so drunk with Mission that I was. I was pretty much ready to say, let's let me go do this, because you're clearly not on board. You're not really being a partner to me in this. I might be able to help more people if I just go. It might be better for the kids. It was awful. And. And yeah, so we reached that point and Margi just was amazing. She just said, I'm gonna love you and let you do this. And I almost self destructed. I came really close to just completely throwing everything away.
Sarah Collett [00:26:39] So let me take a minute here and think in terms of time and when is this in reference to the. The interview with the Larsons? That was in January of 2012.
John Dehlin [00:26:58] Yeah, right.
Sarah Collett [00:26:59] Right around.
John Dehlin [00:26:59] Yeah, that was. That was right in the middle of it.
Sarah Collett [00:27:02] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:27:04] It was sort of. It was sort of September 2011 was when we. It was. No, it was kind of like it was May. It was May ish. Where we had the first May or June, where we had the first Mormon Stories conference in Salt Lake City in 2011. Then we did the Michael Quinn event. Then we, Then we did, as I remember, we did conferences in D.C. and we did conference. We did one in San Diego, and then we did Circling the Wagons, which was my first event for gay and lesbian Mormons. It was a wonderful event. And that was in November of 2011. And yeah, by November, I was probably by August, it was really by August of 2011, where I was, like, ready to just leave everything that was most important to me.
Sarah Collett [00:27:57] I, I, I rarely want to talk, but I want to interject just my perspective of what was happening because it was so new to the Mormon Stories community during that time. I listened to the Quinn broadcast. I listened to the talk that Greg Prince gave at one of those first conferences. And those two speeches were so profoundly helpful for me, and it was profoundly effective. And I think people looking in or listening in to Morrowind's stories, they have these little tiny, you know, experiences here and there with a podcast or with something being broadcast. And so to hear you talk about your own personal come from, it's not at all. I mean, we're so disconnected from what you're going through and what you're experiencing, because we're just hearing what we need to hear, what we want to hear. And I also wanted to say that, you know, as we were kind of passing back and forth this outline for this interview, and I was listening to all of the different interviews that you had done over the years where you kind of spoke from this personal perspective. The Larsen interview, for me, I recognized in your language that fully deconstructed language, because I had spoken that, too. I mean, I had gone to that place where I had fully deconstructed, and it came out loud and clear that, you know, that language. I think people who've gone through that, they recognize that. I know it's not like we're coming at it from a place of, oh, he's spiritually low. We just know what it means to fully, fully accept doubt in terms of God and everything, meaning morals, everything, to have a place of uncertainty be your base. So it's interesting because first, from that point, it's been one year, and I think it's generally well understood within the Mormon Stories community that there's been a shift in you. In fact, when we opened up the question to the Facebook page for questions, a lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people indicated, what's going on with John? Where is he now? So now I want to get back into. I really, I'm fascinated of how you recover from this place. And I also want to know if you do, looking back at the conferences, is your overall takeaway a regret that you did them or do you feel that they were beneficial? I mean, I attended one of them and I mean, I met great friends that are still doing Dear, dear friends today from that conference. And so, you know, my one experience was positive. But I want to know from your personal perspective, was it good for you or not?
John Dehlin [00:30:57] So it's, it's. I'm ambivalent about them.
Sarah Collett [00:31:00] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:31:02] I think that we worked really hard to have an uplifting and a constructive tone. And I think for the most part, part, pretty much for the most part, we succeeded. I think great talks, great musical performances, great attendance, anywhere from In a small city, 80, 80 to 100 people, to 3, 2 or 300 people at some of the bigger events. I love the fact that we brought people together. Friendships. People email me all the time. The friendships that I made at the Houston conference or the friendships that I made at the Denver conference, the Arizona conference, or the Boise conference are friends that all have for life. So I see that as a good thing and I see the events as a good thing. And I think it was. We had good intentions and I think it was beautiful in many ways. So that is, I still feel that way. I don't regret them. And I think a lot of beautiful things come from them, came from them and are still bearing fruit. What's been hard has two things were. Two things I feel. Three things I feel badly about. One is that they came at such a heavy cost to my family. And it came at a very heavy, awful, terrible cost to my wife and kids. And, you know, no success can compensate for failure in the home. It's true. And I always just sort of accepted that in a trite way. But I really thought I was saving the world. I thought I was saving souls and alleviating suffering. But you can't do that if you don't have things. If you don't have your own soul in a good place, place and your own family, it's hypocritical. And so all that was built in some ways on the suffering of my family. And I regret that. The second thing is that there was a. There was no. I never was comfortable talking at these things. And it was. The most awful part about it was that people would bear their testimonies at the end, the little story sharing. And every one or two testimonies would say, thank you, John Dehlin. Thank you, John de Lynn, for what you're doing. Thank you and that was awful for me because they were grateful, but it felt dangerous. It felt like egoic. It felt like, am I setting myself up to be a prophet here? Are they just swapping out who they're worshiping or what they're worshiping? And should anybody. Is this some big ego trip that I'm just assembling for my own personal void and lack of fulfillment that I'm, you know, I. So I don't know how to piece that all together. At the time, I felt like my motives were pure. At the time, it was just all about the pain and suffering. But it was. That part was awful. I needed to be there because we'd get bigger draws if I attended and if I spoke, people would come and. And I wasn't going to put a big piece of paper. Don't mention John's name in your. Like, that almost felt more egoic. So there was some element of the cult of personality that I just was never comfortable with and felt like it was just dangerous for me, for my soul, for them, for everybody, because I felt like I was just having them trade a. One prophet for another, you know, one set of dogmas for another. And. And I didn't think it was good for me to put myself in that position. But the third thing that's been really hard is to keep witnessing what happened. And people ended up leaving the church. People that had been believers weren't and then got divorced. And again, what would happen after these. These conferences? In some of these communities, they would hold parties and they'd smoke weed and they would, you know, wives would make out or, you know, I wasn't at these events. I was at a couple, but not. I never, like, watched people doing sexual things, but I would hear about, you know, a lot of behaviors that. That felt dangerous. And I don't judge that. Like, I don't look at those people as bad, and I don't enforce my morality on others, and I'm not morally perfect at all. But, like, I just. I sat and I said, I'm glad people are getting together and I'm glad they're having a good spiritual experience. But in many instances, I worry that they've traded down that, yeah, there are problems with the church, but there are a lot of problems with trying to have an open marriage, you know, and to be honest, I would probably pick the problems of being in the church versus the problems of trying to navigate an open marriage or becoming addicted to drugs or committing adultery, you know, and that, you know, and that's. It just seems like that naturally was the outgrowth of so many of these communities. And I don't want to color them as these debaucherous, immoral, because that's. That wouldn't be fair. Beautiful, moral, healthy friendships. I mean, Micah was a part of the communities in Phoenix, and bad things happened in Phoenix, but beautiful things happened in Phoenix, and bad things happen at Boise, and good things happen at Boise. Same with Denver, Colorado Springs. Good things have happened, but I couldn't help but feel responsible for the bad. And at the end, so much of the discourse in these Facebook communities that I created, they just became post Mormon angry groups because it's really hard to moderate respectful discourse in one forum, but in 90 forums where people are meeting face to face, it's impossible. And so the whole enterprise of Mormon stories, which was, we support you if you believe, we support you if you want to stay, but we support you if you want to go. All the communities became, in effect, post Mormon communities. And I felt like I don't want to just be another post Mormon or ex Mormon community. That's. We don't need that. Like, there's plenty of that. And I certainly don't want to be that. And I don't want to. As much as I had that devil on my shoulder that was angry, I didn't want to screw with people's lives and wreck people's lives. And I just. I felt like it was just more power and influence than I had been mature enough to steward. Does that make sense?
Sarah Collett [00:37:52] Yes. Because the come from is so different from me. I didn't experience any of the negative. And, you know, hearing you say it, on the one hand, I'm frustrated because that is such a stereotype that is. That is kind of placed, you know, on people. If you leave the church, that means that down the road, you know, that these things, bad things are going to happen, you're going to start sinning. On the one hand, I feel frustrated because that hasn't been my own personal experience. That hasn't happened for my husband and I, but we've gotten that judgment. And on the other hand, we have to acknowledge that that does happen. That does happen. So it's just interesting. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's hard to look it in the face.
John Dehlin [00:38:45] Well, yeah, and I've gone back and forth because I was almost there, like I was moving in that direction. And I. So I'll go on the record. Can you leave the church and be moral? Absolutely. Can you leave the church and be happy? Absolutely. Does leaving the church mean you Become an adulterous, you know, drug using, immoral person? No, not necessarily. And does all that happen in the church? Yes, in different places. So I don't mean to stereotype this, and I don't even mean to say that it's bad. Like, I'm very sure that a lot of these people were responsible. They went through things. Things. They grew from it and they've ended up in happier places. So I. I do not say all this out of a. Out of a way to stereotype or condemn or judge, and I don't. But all this stuff was happening in association with what I was trying to do. And it felt like I said, it felt more serious then. I was competent and spiritually and emotionally mature to steward and shepherd. I was not. I was not the soul that could lead a movement responsible enough to feel. To feel good about all the implications of what I was doing. That I just wasn't a good enough man to be able to do that.
Hitting Rock Bottom and a Personal Turning Point
Sarah Collett [00:40:31] So it sounds like you hit rock bottom.
John Dehlin [00:40:34] Yeah, totally. Yeah. By February, March of 2012, I hit rock bottom.
Sarah Collett [00:40:43] Okay, so this is the part of the interview where I really want to switch the tone because personally, in my own life and this last year, I've discovered what I like to call reconstruction, and I got that from Jared Anderson, who put a label on what I'm going through. So I'm assuming just from a little bit of interaction that we've had and things that you've posted on Facebook, that you did that as well. And can we now switch to and kind of really focus on how that started and. Or talk about what that looked like for you?
John Dehlin [00:41:21] Yeah, so. So I think the Larsen interview was. Was the worst time for me. I. I've worn my garments throughout. Throughout this whole thing. I wasn't wearing my garments during that time. I just kind of stopped and. And I don't mean to make a big deal of that, but I mean, that was just sort of. I was. That was my darkest, worst time, angriest time, bitterest time. And then. So the strange thing that happened was my son's birthday is in February, his eighth birthday. And I wasn't paying tithing, but in my own twisted way, I felt like I should be able to baptize my son. Looking back now, I probably wasn't. I probably didn't have good grounds to feel worthy to baptize my son, but I felt like I was and I should. And mostly importantly, he wanted. He wanted to baptize me. He wanted me to baptize him. So I went to my bishop. And at first it looked like he was going to let me baptize him but not confirm him because I wasn't paying tithing. Confirmation is a Melchizedek priesthood ordinance, and you have to be temple recommended worthy to perform a Melchizedek priesthood ordinance, but not for baptism. So that's how it was kind of looking. But then my stake president, I get a phone call from the stake president clerk, and he says, the stake president wants to meet with you. And I just freaked out because I'm like, they're going to excommunicate me. They're going to call a court. You know, and this was right all around that time of the UVU thing and the Maxwell Institute stuff. And so I met with them just like, ready to go to war. I actually brought in, you know, recording devices, recorded all the discussions. And what I envisioned happening was, he's going to excommunicate me, I'm going to record the whole thing, and then I'm going to post it to the Internet and expose the church for what it is. You know, that's how dark it had gotten for me. And so. And so the crazy, even more awful thing was in my conversations with the stake president, I found out that the bishop, having never spoken with me, had initiated an investigation on me, where he appointed two members of the ward to start following my things on Facebook, writing down what I write, trying to join some of the private forums that I was a member of and gather evidence to decide whether or not I could still stay a member. And some, you know, my elders quorum president was one of the two people asked. He had always been someone that I really looked up to and admired. And, you know, to find out a couple months later that he had been secretly investigating me without ever telling me was just this awful, terrible feeling. And so I was on edge and ready to go to war and make it really public, as if anybody really would care. But in my ego, I thought, oh, this will be big.
Family Faith Decisions and Finding a Path Forward
Sarah Collett [00:44:48] And so can I ask a question right here? We're talking about the baptism of your son, which I find is pretty interesting given the circumstances, because it's so fundamentally a Mormon ordinance, rite of passage, tradition, however you want to characterize it. I mean, but Christ, it's Christian, fundamentally. I mean, it's baptism. So I find it so interesting that you are so dedicated to this idea of baptizing your son and at the same time, fully deconstructed. Can you just talk a little bit about that?
John Dehlin [00:45:26] Yeah, it's all. And this is If I had one major theme that I would want to end with, when we end, it's this disconnection between the intellect and the emotional and the spiritual, emotionally and spiritual. Spiritually, I did not want to let Mormonism or that special moment between me and my son go. I baptized all my other children. I still loved the church. I was still trying to help the church, but I was angry at it. And so intellectually, I deconstructed the church, but emotionally and spiritually, I wasn't ready to say goodbye to that. And so I was fighting. And there's a part of me, this was the first time I'd been able to ever talk to my stake president. And for me, this was this test of, like, are they going to accept me? I'm going to tell the stake President everything. I'm going to be fully honest, tell him all my concerns, and I'm going to see if he'll keep me. And for me, I. I was curious. I was like, I want them to say, we want you, we accept you. We love you in spite of the fact that you're different. And then it would be this big healing thing. But the way I thought I was heading was in the other direction. And it was a real shocker when the stake president to one of our meetings showed up with the John and Zilfield Larsen interview fully transcribed. And he sat me down and he said, let me read to you what you said to John and Zilfa Larsen just a couple months ago, or however, whenever it was. And he read about the God stuff and stuff about the Savior and the atonement and all these things that I had said in a bad place, kind of flippantly. And he said, I have a hard time feeling like I would be responsible if I let you baptize your son, knowing that you believe and feel these things. And so he said, no, you can't baptize your son.
Sarah Collett [00:47:17] Where were you with God in terms of. I mean, I know you'd fully deconstructed, but was this about God at all for you, or was this just about your relationship to the church?
John Dehlin [00:47:28] It wasn't about. At the time. I had let God go and I let spirituality go, and I had let. I was totally checked out of my emotions. I kind of let my family go.
Sarah Collett [00:47:41] So the idea of worthiness was kind of a not. I mean, in your own mind, you were. You were thinking in terms of, yeah,
John Dehlin [00:47:46] it's like, you can't judge me.
Sarah Collett [00:47:48] Right?
John Dehlin [00:47:48] And I was, you know, not drinking, not smoking.
Sarah Collett [00:47:52] Right.
John Dehlin [00:47:53] You know, trying to live an honest life, you know, trying to be a good dad, a good husband, trying to help people. Like, in my mind, I felt like I was a good guy.
Sarah Collett [00:48:02] Right.
John Dehlin [00:48:04] Yeah.
Sarah Collett [00:48:05] Okay, so they didn't let you baptize your son and I assume you had to come home and tell him.
Sarah Collett [00:48:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:14] Yeah. I mean, the way it worked was he said, he didn't say, no, you can't do it. He said, we're going to need to start having some conversations and I'm going to need to understand you better, and you're probably going to need to help me understand a few things, and we're probably going to need to get you to a different place before you're going to be allowed to do that. But I thought, okay, well, we'll talk for a few weeks or maybe a month or two to. And, and it would either be. They'd excommunicate me and I'd burn the effort down, you know, or he would understand and be empathetic and supportive and he'd let me do it. But I envisioned that happening within the space of a few weeks or a
Sarah Collett [00:49:00] month or two, and it took a lot longer.
John Dehlin [00:49:04] I still haven't baptized Winston. He turns. He turns nine next month.
Sarah Collett [00:49:08] So he's waiting.
John Dehlin [00:49:09] He's waiting. Yeah.
Sarah Collett [00:49:11] For you to do it. And you, you want to do it.
John Dehlin [00:49:14] Yeah, I do.
Sarah Collett [00:49:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:16] Yeah. But that's not, that was not what. What brought me back.
Sarah Collett [00:49:22] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:49:22] In fact, that, that probably made it harder for me to come back because I, I'm not the type of guy that's gonna, you know, I, I kind of am a little bit anti authoritarian and I. A little bit rebellious. And so it's not like he's. I'm being good and he's using my son as hostage to sort of manipulate me. That's not what's happening. What happened was we started meeting weekly and we've met weekly for almost a year now. So imagine that. I've been having a weekly hour long conversation with my stake president for about a year.
Sarah Collett [00:50:03] Wow. That's intense.
John Dehlin [00:50:08] Yeah.
Sarah Collett [00:50:09] You like him?
John Dehlin [00:50:11] Well, that's, you know, that's, that's the amazing thing is that I went into these discussions with my stake president thinking that I would go out in a blaze of glory, burning everything down as I went. But he started listening to the podcast.
Sarah Collett [00:50:28] He.
John Dehlin [00:50:29] He started, he said, what books you want me to read? What websites do you want me to go to? Tell me all your issues and let's talk about them. And so that's what, that's what it was for months and months and months. It was just, I want to learn everything that I can learn, and I want to understand as much as you want to tell me this is your time. And, you know, I. Early on, I just said, you guys talk about leaving the 99 to go after the 1 and the lost sheep, but you don't live it. You guys. You know, I basically said to him, you've never. You've had these concerns for a while. You've never called me in here. You've never tried to understand where I come from. I represent a lot of people that are in pain. You haven't done any work to try. And my bishop, even less. You know, I'd gotten a new bishop, and he was kind of the same way. He's like, I don't want to talk about it. And so I'm like, you guys. You guys are hypocrites. And he took it to heart. He's like, okay, I'll meet with you every week. I'll meet with you as much as you want. You tell me. And so that's what we started doing. And at first it was just, again, me recording every conversation, you know, eager to someday expose him and. And catch him and the contradictions. And, you know, I was in a really agitated place. But over time, he was just loving and empathetic and encouraging and supportive.
Sarah Collett [00:52:02] Did he ever show signs of being disturbed by the things that you were telling him to read or the podcast or. I mean, did he express any kind of.
John Dehlin [00:52:14] He expressed empathy, and he would say, okay, I can see why polyandry bothers you or bothers other people. I can see why DNA evidence is a. Is a problem for many. I, you know, over time, he would. He did the work, he did the emotional work to say, I can understand your point of view. I don't think. And he started reading Rough Stone Rolling. I think he's still reading it. And I don't think he ever got to the place where he's. At least he never let on that he ever got to the place where he was doubting or questioning or disturbed for his testimony. But I didn't need that. What I needed was him to say, okay, okay, I know all the issues. I've read it, I get it, and they are legitimate, But you're still welcome here, and I'll do everything I can to be a positive force in your life and with the mistake, try and help other people as well. And that's kind of what I needed.
Sarah Collett [00:53:32] But did you at the same time feel like Maybe he wouldn't be strong enough either. Did you ever go into it with this idea of if he reads this stuff and if he listens to my podcast, he'll have to question too?
John Dehlin [00:53:51] What I thought was gonna happen was I would say all these things that bothered me and he would get angry at me and eventually lose his patience and hold a court.
Sarah Collett [00:54:02] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:54:03] That was the outcome that I thought was. I didn't see him changing.
Sarah Collett [00:54:06] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:54:07] What happened was a little bit surprising is that I lost interest in raising problems with him. And he said, can I just start teaching you the equivalent to the missionary discussions of the plan of salvation? Like, do you mind if I. Now I've listened to you. Can you listen to me for a while? And so he started like, he started with like, God and he would like, teach me about his views on God for an hour.
Sarah Collett [00:54:37] How, how many months after the, you know, the sit downs began? Did he say that? Was it like a few weeks in or was it.
John Dehlin [00:54:44] No, it was a few months. Okay. Yeah, he. He let me just talk and, and complain and express issues. I mean, the truth is he talked in most of the. What would happen was I would say, well, let's talk DNA or let's talk. And then he would, you know, he would actually ask me, can you email me ahead of time the issues you want to talk about? I'll do some reading and then I'll come ready to discuss. So I would come to the meeting, I would say, let's talk about this or that problem. And then most of the time he would try and give explanations and never were the explanations intellectually satisfactory to me. What I was moved by and what started changing with him and then with Margi at home and the kids was his love and his spirit and his emotions. He would cry. He's cried probably every. Every interview we've been in and not in a. Access to sort of manipulative, unstable type crying. This is a man who has been transformed by his understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and wants to do good and love people. So when he cries, it's because he wants me to be happy and he wants my family, doesn't want to see my family have so much pain and he doesn't want to see someone, you know, leave the fold. And so his crying and his emotions were so sincere. But most importantly, I started being losing interest in having intellectual discussions because he wasn't moving me intellectually, but he was moving me spiritually and he was moving me emotionally and he was displaying a level of love that I Hadn't believed expressing for years. He had been transformed by his understanding of the gospel. And it was apparent. I felt the spirit, I felt his love, his patience and his commitment. And he. He showed me as a man of a character and integrity and commitment and compassion. And so I started. The conversations changed, where they became doctrinal, where he would want to teach me. But even the doctrine that he taught me wasn't super interesting to me. But I just kept feeling like I had made a friend. I felt like this guy loved me and I want to respect what he was trying to do for me. And maybe through this dialogue, he'll be able to help a lot of other people. And. But then, and this is most surprising at all, I found myself confessing to him sins, you know, ways that I had fallen off the tracks and ways that I felt spiritually in decay. And I started like this. The prideful me would have never, ever allowed myself to put myself in a position where anyone could judge me or that I would even feel like they had a right to know anything about my private life. But what I found myself doing is trusting him emotionally and spiritually, that he would keep confidences. And I started using him like someone would use their bishop to confess and get spiritual guidance and support. And that was a real surpriser for me. But I did. I confessed my sins to my stake president, and he was really sweet and supportive and nurturing. And we're meeting this Sunday. Like the meetings continue.
Sarah Collett [00:58:29] Come Thou. Grace.
John Dehlin [00:58:40] Thank you for joining us today on A Thoughtful Faith. To discuss this podcast, check us out at a thoughtful faith.org the music from this podcast was generously donated by Lisa Frazier. Hear more from her@lisafraser.com.
Sarah Collett [00:59:07] On it. Mount of lightning love. Here I raise my echo Music hither By thy help I come and I hope by thy good pleasure Safely to arrive at home Jesus sought me with a stranger Wandering from the fold of God he to rescue me from danger insurposed his precious blood O to grace how great a debtor dearly I could strength to be Let thy goodness like a fetter Bind my wandering heart to thee Pray Come to the Lord I feel it Come to live the God I love here's my heart oh, take and seal it Seal it for thy course above O come to all wonder Lord, I like feeling to thee oh God, I love oh, here's my heart.
Spiritual Practice and Ongoing Questions
Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 399
Guest [00:00:01] Come, thou fount of every blessing, Tune my heart to single grace.
John Dehlin [00:00:11] A Thoughtful Faith Podcast is a production of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to A Thoughtful Faith are tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@athoughtfulfaith.org.
Sarah Collett [00:00:46] Okay, well, I want to then ask, did he, While you're. You're confessing and you're going through this process with him in the office, did he at any point say to you, I want you to pray or I want you to read your. I mean, it's really hard for people who are in faith crisis to get those talks from their bishop. I mean, I've heard you say that, right? Where they go in and they talk to their bishop and they say, well, are you reading your Scriptures and are you saying your prayers? And that's hard for people to hear. But at this point, did he ever say any of those things to you? Did you start doing them on your own? Tell me if you started personally incorporating any kind of spiritual practice, even meditation or like you were saying, nature walks, or talk about that.
John Dehlin [00:01:32] So early on he would ask about prayer and scripture. And, you know, I'm probably a bishop or stake president's nightmare because I just said, yeah, the scriptures are the problem. The more I read the scriptures, the angrier I get. And you want to talk about why. Let me give you some examples. And it didn't take long before he realized that wasn't going to work with me, you know, saying, go do that, right? Go pray and read the Scriptures. So he stopped. What he did do, interestingly, is, you know, fast forward six months or a year, he started incorporating scriptures into some of the talks that we would have, and they would be very edifying. So one really, really important talk we had where I would just say, you know, I can't offer you. I will never be able to say to you, probably, I know that God lives. I will probably never be able to say to you that I know that Jesus died and was resurrected. And if that's a requirement for me to enter back into full fellowship, I could just tell you what you want to hear, but I'm not going to do that. And I don't think you want me to do that. I don't think either of us grow if I just tell you what you want to hear. But I said, here's what I can offer. I have a testimony of love and of service and of compassion and of kindness and of forgiveness and of faith and of repentance. And I have a testimony of spirituality and the importance of being a good husband and a good father. And I rarely get emotional, but at that moment, I think I started crying, and I said, you know, that's what I'll lay at your altar. If that is enough. For you to want me and for the church to have me, that's what I'll lay at the altar. And if that's good enough, then I think I can be a part of this. But if that's not good enough, then I'm sorry. That's probably the best I'll be able to do for the foreseeable future. And he, like, immediately turned to these scriptures in the Book of Mormon and in, I think it was First Corinthians, where Christ just says, if ye have not charity, you have nothing. And you can speak with the tongue of angels and prophesy. And that was like, he was able to pull those scriptures out and say it to me and affirm me. And then he started crying, and then. And he started saying, that's absolutely a beautiful offering, and we would be honored to have that, and we want you here, and we'd be so sad to see you go. And there's nothing I want more. And tears are streaming down his face, and I'm emotional, and I'm so inspired that then I'm going home sharing those scriptures with my children and with my clients, incorporating some of those scriptures with some of the LDS clients in my therapy, incorporating those scriptures in and mentioning them on my podcast. So I don't say that I probably read the scriptures a little bit, but I'm not, like, read every day or even read every week. And I'm kind of looking at, like, my whole view on spirituality has changed in that there are times where I pray, but the formal prayers are not super central right now to my spirituality, because talking to God as if he's a bearded man or anthropomorphic or whatever, that's all still an obstacle for me because I don't know what God is, and I don't know if there's really anyone listening in some literal sense. I just don't know. So, but. But what's been a change for me is, number one, recognizing that I've been for 20 years. I looked at the world through one lens, and that's the intellectual lens. And everything was about making it work intellectually. And not only was I neglecting the Emotional, spiritual, and familial aspects of my life. I was almost running from myself and running from the best opportunities I had for true emotional and spiritual connection. You know, Margi's been really patient with me for many years. She was always got the second helpings of what I had to offer as I was saving the world. And she would reach out to me and say, can we connect? Can we talk? Can we. Will you listen to this thought that I had or this story? And I would be like, in my mind, all right, you got five minutes, you know, and then my eyes would glaze over, and I'd start getting tired, and I would do my best to, like, move on. And the hardest thing is that, is to look back and realize that Margi is this incredibly wise, beautiful, sensitive, spiritual, good Soul who for 17 years, has been trying to really connect with me emotionally. And what I've been doing is doing everything I could to avoid that sincere, true emotional connection. I've been sabotaging the possibility of that. Not intentionally. There was just so much denial. But I was so prideful and so caught up in saving the world that I was missing that. And it wasn't just her. It was with my children. Like, over the past couple years, one of the reasons I wanted to leave the family was because I felt like my kids were fighting a lot, and there wasn't a lot of harmony in the home, and I wasn't connecting with my kids. And I kind of blame Margi, that she was always controlling or whatever. But the truth is, I was not emotionally available to my children. I was physically available to my children. I was at their musical performances, and I would make them breakfast, and I'd be there for dinner, and I would kiss them good night and help them with their homework. But when they would, like, come into my office and want to talk, well, I was editing an episode. And when I could have come home to really connect with them early, well, I had to have that one phone conversation with that person in Boston who's struggling. And. And so one of the most. One of the most beautiful gifts that's come out of all of this is I just put all that stuff on as much hold as I could. I stopped the conferences, I stopped the communities, and I started connecting and investing emotionally in my wife and children. I thought I was, but I wasn't. And it's. You know. You know, we talked a bit about people leaving the church and then sometimes falling into dangerous things or getting divorced. I want to say two things on the record. Number one is I Absolutely believe that some divorces need to happen and some people, their lives improve when the divorce happens. And some families get happier when a divorce happens. And some people, they become more moral when they leave the church or more ethical or more happy. I want to make sure it's explicit that I validate that path completely, that that is all possible and many people do it. But I also want to validate this, that I know many Mormons who get to the place where when their faith unravels, they start questioning their love for their spouse, they start questioning the importance of keeping the family together. And most importantly, they might find another woman that they think might be their soulmate. Or they start looking at a lifestyle outside where they say, I wouldn't have married this person. I wouldn't have made these choices. And all this other stuff now looks like it's what I was called to do. This person might be my soulmate or this life will be the true authentic life. And it can feel very real and compelling and enticing and it can feel like it's what you were meant to do, to cast off the shackles of all these bad decisions that you made in association with the church and, and then go live this true, authentic soulmate life, possibly with somebody else. And what I just wanted to also go on the record to say is that. That can be a mirage. And it is also very possible that the love you're seeking, the emotional connection you're seeking, the emotional and intellectual and even sexual fulfillment that you think will be found by taking a completely different path, can be unearthed and discovered and enjoyed right in the place where you've been for 5, 10, 15, or 20 years. If you're willing to, to not engage the world purely with your intellect, but you're willing to say emotion matters as much as intellect and spirit matters as much as emotion and intellect and love and listening and connection matters as much as intellect and integrity, you can find and discover depths of emotional intimacy and connection and love and fulfillment that you would have thought was not possible where you were. I just want to let listeners know, for anyone who, who may have experienced anything like me, I want them to know that that also is possible. And the price that you have to pay is to take the intellectual down, raise up the emotional and the spiritual and the family and the community connections, and start experiencing life from a multi dimensional standpoint where your integrity and your truth intellectually that you suppose is legitimate and credible is all that matters, is of primal importance. You're willing to say there's a spiritual Truth that's also important, a spiritual whispering and influence and nurturing that also must be listened to. And it is a different language than the intellect. And there is an emotional language that we are willing to often throw out our emotional care and connection and investment in others because we've got our truth and our certainty and our own pain and anguish. And that's what it's all about. If you can plug into that emotions and develop a relationship of love and trust where there's a mutual level of emotional connection and investment and you start frankly caring more about people than intellect and ideas and doctrine and theology and history, it can transform your life. And I know I'm only six, six to nine months into it and I could change next week or next month or in six months or a year, but I don't think so. I think that as painful as this has been, I think I'm committed to this multi dimensional approach to my life, to my family and to religion and to my experiences that I think is gonna, is gonna stay a while.
Views on Tithing, Divorce, and Church Policies
Sarah Collett [00:14:47] Well, let me ask a few small questions. Some of these questions came specifically from the Mormon stories crowd. They wanted to know if how you view tithing, how you view, you know, like basically the requirements, how, I mean, do you care if we talk about that, those kinds of things?
John Dehlin [00:15:13] No.
Guest [00:15:17] So
John Dehlin [00:15:21] there is an intellectual. I had to do some intellectual work to get to the place that I am. It's not all emotional and spiritual, but here's the way I view things. For me, it's not about whether you're believing or not believing. It's not about the doctrine or theology. It's not about the history. It's not about whether you're in the church or out of the church. For me, there are some transcendent things. There are things I know, things I believe and things I hope for. But there are things that I know. I know that when I'm living as a believer, I am happier. That's true for me when I was. And I don't know what I believe in. Like I can barely put a form to what I believe. All I can say is I believe there's some, and this is something I've been saying for a while, I believe there's some order or force or power that's driving all this and I don't even know that it's true. But I'm happier when I act and believe as if I do. I know that I am. And I do not think that you have to be Mormon or even religious to connect in to whatever that power is. You don't even have to believe that it's some existential power. But atheists and secular people and scientists, they still do the things they do for some reason and still do what they do with some hope, some act of faith, that it will matter in the end. And there's a commonality that I believe spans all faiths and secular people of just having this belief and hope that there's something good around the corner, that there's some power or support for you, and that if you're willing to live that way and plug into it, good things are going to happen. And so that's God for me right now. And I'm, you know, I hope that God is some loving mother and father that I can go up to and be embraced by. I mean, that's beautiful, but I don't know that. What I know is that if I live like a believer, I'm going to be happy. I know that Jesus's teachings of love and compassion and charity and service bring joy and meaningful, and they're profound. And I know that good has come from the restoration, the LDS restoration. Too many good families, too many quality people, too many good things on the earth have come from Mormonism for me to look at it as this pox on the history on the back end of humanity. And so those are all things that I know. And my message to non believers isn't, you need to believe or be Mormon. It's more two things. It's more, I don't care how you do good, but do good. I don't care how you, you know, it doesn't matter where we plug into or connect with or how we identify. What matters is that we're anxiously engaged in love and service and making the world a better place. And if you don't believe in Mormonism, fine, but find a way to do that where you are, right? And what's important to me now is I've rediscovered the importance of things like spirituality, of emphasis on family, of commitment to family, of service, of community, right? Like, I have a testimony that those things are important. And what I want to do is invest in institutions or causes that encourage and support those things. So if I go to church and take my intellectual cap and put it on the side and start sensing with my emotional and spiritual self, it's beautiful. I love brother so and so and sister so and so is struggling. How do we help her? And wow, all these people are in young men's and young women's trying to raise good, good kids. And that hymn made me feel really good. Right. So as long as I'm not engaging too much intellectually, but bringing the spirit and emotion in this all feels nurturing and good to me. Now, there's things that bother me and there's homophobia and there's sexism and racism and historical inaccuracies. Like, that's all true, but that's. But, but, but it's also true that I feel a spiritual and an emotional connection and that I am reinforced morally. I am edified by my community associations and I'm nurtured spiritually when I go. And so the way that I've. We just, we just, we've been. We had been paying partial tithing last year, and we define tithing how we define it. So I'm. I'm not going to talk about how we define tithing, but we have decided to pay a full tithing based on how we define a full tithing starting this year after having paid a partial tithing for a good chunk of last year. And the reason why, I can feel, you know, I, more than anyone, am concerned about the church's position on homosexuals. I am more than anyone, am concerned about the church's treatment of intellectuals and the status of women in the church and the historical stuff. But when I give to the church now, in spite of the mall, in spite of misuse of funds, what I'm investing in is in the elements of the church that nurture family, spirituality, morality, integrity and service. And anyone that says that the church does not bolster morality, family, service, love, and basic Christlike virtues, I think is blinded by anger or frustration or whatever emotional or psychological work that they need to do. Now, it doesn't mean there isn't judgment or meanness or bad things or abuse that happens, but I don't see those things as uniquely Mormon. If the Mormon Church were to disappear today and if every. This is what I know by having. Having tried to build an organization in a community, erase all the churches on the earth. It is not like there's going to be gumdrops and jelly beans raining from the sky with unicorns dancing around. There is a human element of anger and backbiting and sin and, and frustration and judgment and bigotry that is going to infiltrate any organization that gets created. And I don't think that Mormonism is uniquely pernicious or sinister in any of the vices of the human condition. I just don't. I don't accept that. I know, because I tried to build this pure, righteous, true altruistic Organization. And what did I experience from myself? Pride, anger, judgment, bitterness, negativity. Fill in the blank. Problems. Enmity. And so I'm okay paying tithing.
Sarah Collett [00:23:08] Okay, so let's backtrack a little bit. You mentioned briefly that you went through kind of a transition with the actual organization of Mormon stories. You stopped doing the conferences. You were pretty public about that. You started a few extra podcasts. Can you talk about that shift? Was that a decision that you came to all of a sudden? Was that growing over time? Did you discuss it with your wife? How did that those changes come about?
John Dehlin [00:23:42] These podcasts have been in the work conceptually for years. Years, actually. I've owned the domain. I think I bought a thoughtful faith before I bought Mormon Stories.
Sarah Collett [00:23:53] Really?
John Dehlin [00:23:53] Yeah. That was originally what I was going to name the podcast, but I wanted to be welcoming to people who didn't believe and open to disbelief. And so I went with a name that was more neutral. Gay Mormon Stories. You know, I've cared about the LGBT issues for a long time, and so what I found is that you really. I hate to always go back to scriptural references, but you really are either kind of trying to make Mormonism work, or you kind of need to leave it and move on. Staying in this middle ground of anger and bitterness and frustration and enmity. It just cankers your soul. It really does. Like, I'm not. My message is not everyone should stay in the church. It's that you should either make the church work in your life or go do something else. Don't just sit and nitpick at people who are trying to build community, trying to nurture spirituality, trying to raise righteous children, trying to make the world a better place. Don't just, like, make. Make potshots at them and throw historical or doctrinal problems in their face to be disruptive. Go build your Zion. Go build a secular Zion. But go do something. And so a thoughtful faith was to say, hey, there are people who are trying to make it work. Let's provide them with something that combines thought with faith. They deserve it. They need it. There's nothing out there doing it. I'm not aware. Fair's not doing it. You know, I'm not aware Event dialogue has just started, but it's. It's very academic. It's a little bit. You know, I don't even know enough to say what the Dialogue podcast is totally about, but I just feel like there's a need for thoughtful faith. I've asked someone to do former Mormon stories. It hasn't taken off yet partly because the person that I've talked to about doing it has just graduated with his PhD and he's starting a new job. But the idea there is that if people are going to leave, I want them to move on to something better, to something uplifting and rewarding and moral and happy and fulfilling. They deserve that, I think. Gays and lesbians, this is the civil rights moment of our generation, and. And it's going to last another 20 years. And the church will change on this issue. And, you know, few people kill themselves because of a crisis of faith, but gays and lesbians are killing themselves every month because of their sexuality. And it's my research. And so Gay Mormon Stories is an outgrowth of saying, this is a big problem that's costing lives, and we need to start addressing it really openly. We're about to launch a blog called no More Strangers, and it's going to be a blog dedicated just to LGBT issues within Mormonism. And then Mormon Story. Sunday School was just this. Jared's just so brilliant, right? And. How. It's an attempt to say, let's model thoughtful but faithful discourse that. That respects scripture and doctrine and theology. And to be honest, I haven't had time to really listen to what Jared does, but I know that there's a lot of people who really value it, and I think it's helping a lot of people. And, you know, we're not trying to, like, influence the church curriculum or, like, embarrass the church into changing. It's just something Jared felt called to do. And I've been happy to support it, and I hope it's valuable to those who value it and Mormon matters. You know, Dan is just. Dan Witherspoon is such a special person. He told me five years ago when I created that essay, you know, how to Stay in the Church After Becoming Disaffected, he called it. He said, john, you figured this out intellectually, but you haven't figured it out emotionally and spiritually yet, and you've got a ways to go. And I was like, oh, Dan, I'm way ahead of you. And he was right. Dan has been modeling a theology and an approach to Mormonism that I think is really Mormonism's best hope at surviving, you know, in conjunction with the people he's brought on. And I think the same thing about a thoughtful faith. So all these projects are attempts to say, wherever you are, let's help you find a constructive path to a more enlightened place.
Sarah Collett [00:28:41] It kind of took years, but it correlated itself with the end of the conferences. And was that just because you really did at some point make a decision that you wanted to just simplify and delegate and, I mean, what was that moment?
John Dehlin [00:29:02] It was a moment that I realized that you can't be all things to all people. You can't bring believing Mormons and disaffected Mormons who hate the church together and build a community. There's. There's too much. They're in different spheres, they're on different planes, different realms. And so instead of trying to build this utopian, integrative community, it's to say, let's meet people where they are and give them what they're needing in the direction they want to go. And some of these directions are. Are not compatible.
Sarah Collett [00:29:39] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:29:40] And so, yeah, I should mention Mormon mental health. We're about to. Oh, yeah, Natasha. I mean, I'm. I'm becoming a psychologist and Natasha is awesome. And mental health is a big issue in the church. So that's. These may all die. Like, these could all die tomorrow. If you stop interviewing and Micah stops interviewing. Guess what? A thoughtful faith is dead. I'm not going to be able to revive it. And if Natasha stops or Dan stops or Jared stops, it's done. So if you listeners value any of this stuff, support these people financially because they need financial support to make this work.
Sarah Collett [00:30:13] Thank you. All right, I want to go back and cover a few things that we skipped, but I think are important. Can we address the Tom Phillips?
Sensitive Interviews and Organizational Changes
John Dehlin [00:30:24] Yeah. So for those who don't know, I interviewed a man named Tom Phillips who had served as a bishop twice in the UK and in Australia, I think. And then he became a stake president, and then he became, like, secretary to the area presidency in the Western Europe. And then eventually he participated in a very sacred special ordinance that a lot of Mormons don't know about that was really special. And then after that, he lost his testimony of the church and was very public about it and not only published his story, but also his interactions with Elder Holland, the apostle. And I. I talked him into doing the interview. It was. It was.
Sarah Collett [00:31:25] Give me the time frame of when this happened.
John Dehlin [00:31:28] I'm a little bit fuzzy on it.
Sarah Collett [00:31:30] Like within the last year.
John Dehlin [00:31:32] I want to say it was. I wanted. I want to say it was sometime in 2012.
Sarah Collett [00:31:37] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:31:39] It was right in the middle of my. Right. As things were turning positive with my stake president.
Sarah Collett [00:31:44] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:31:44] Starting to turn positive. I wanted to say sometime in mid-2012. I could be wrong.
Sarah Collett [00:31:49] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:31:52] And he's a really sensitive, delightful, intelligent, thoughtful guy. And he tells a great story, and his story is tragic and it's heartbreaking. And there's a part of me that believes that everyone should hear that story. I still believe that. And I feel like I really disappointed him by having him spend five hours with me and then telling him I wasn't going to be able to release it. But what happened was by that time, I was starting to pay attention to the spiritual and emotional side of me. And I got about 150 of my closest friends together, and we had these big debates about should I release it? And he talks about this sacred ordinance that he participated in in the interview. And it's the norm as it happened in the temple. And that was a really central part of the interview. Frankly, his story is interesting without that. But it's a lot like a lot of the other ex Mormon narratives that we've heard of. Tragic, awful, credible, terrible, sad, liberating in some ways. But his talking about that sacred ordinance that happened in the temple really was like, other than the fact that it's. He was a Stake president and had conversations with Elder Holland, that was kind of, to me, what made the. The interview most interesting. And two things, three things happened with that interview. One was all the believing but intellectual Mormons that I knew that I really trusted, who I felt were living exemplary lives of integrity and compassion and kindness and love and empathy. They all said, don't do it. It'll hurt Mormon stories. It'll hurt the good you're trying to do. So you know, when some of these names that you all would know say, I think it's going to do more damage than good and it's going to hurt you, That's. You pay attention to that. And the biggest concern was that it talked about what went on in the temple. And for better or for worse, the church has sort of drawn a line and said, if you talk about what goes on in the temple, we're going to excommunicate you. And I feel like they have the right to have some things be sacred. And even though you can go up to the Internet and YouTube the temple ceremony, I don't think, you know, if I'm tuning into my spiritual self and my emotional self, people's sacred things deserve to be respected. Even if you think it's all hooey, you don't run to a Muslim and make fun of the fact that he prays to Allah three times a day. You don't, like, pull the skull cap off of a Jew and twirl it around and treat it Like a Frisbee, you don't genuflect to a Catholic and mock the rosary with the beads. I would never do that. So part of the logic that these beast people used that I knew inside is you just when people have something that's sacred, you respect it. And to talk openly about what goes on in the temple would be both spiritually and emotionally disrespectful. And it could be counterproductive to whatever good I'm still trying to do. If I get excommunicated, if Terrell Givens or Phil Barlow won't come on Mormon Stories because I crossed that line of talking openly about the temple, then I won't be effective. And again, effectiveness has always been what I wanted to be. That was one thing. Second thing was I shared with my stake president, and I said, president Jensen, I've done this interview, and I don't want it to jeopardize what we're doing here, and I don't want to get excommunicated. And I'm interested to know if you're okay with me releasing this. And he wasn't. And he didn't say, I'll excommunicate you. He basically said, you make your own choice, and then we'll make ours. But I think. I think he made it pretty clear to me that there would be consequences if I did. And the third thing was, at the end of the day, I didn't feel spiritually, morally, like it was the right thing to do. And that was terrible. And I told Tom how terrible I felt. And the deal I made with him was, you deserve this interview. You spent five hours with me, I promised you that I'd release it, and I'm going to give it to you in full, and you can decide what you want to do with it. And that wasn't me finding a way to release it without releasing it. It really wasn't. It was me showing him respect that he gets to own his story. And, of course, he decided to share it. So, you know, that was his decision. But I would have felt wrong not giving him the audio, but I would have felt bad releasing it. So letting him decide what to do with it felt like the most moral and ethical thing to do. And, you know, some people listen to it, a lot of people haven't. And I would just caution people that if they listen to that interview, there are sacred things talked about that are offensive. And, you know, keep that in mind.
Sarah Collett [00:37:48] So from. From this point, this vantage point right now, as you look back, what's the good that's come from all of this.
Impact on Family and Current Personal Beliefs
John Dehlin [00:37:59] Some people have asked how we. How we deal with our kids and how this has affected my family. And there have been times where, especially when it became severely stressful for my family, where I just really, like. I said to Margi, I said, this has pretty much been all awful, hasn't it? I said, this morning, we ran together around the track, and I'm like, I'm just going to tell him how awful it's been. And she's like, no, that's not the way I've experienced it. And the phrase that Margi likes to use is that life is wise, that life presents you with challenges and opportunities and there's wisdom in it. And I don't even know that she would say she believes in anthropomorphic God. Like, I don't know where her beliefs in God are, but she's got this conviction that life will keep presenting you with opportunities to learn and grow if you'll be conscious enough to receive what life is trying to communicate and the lessons life is trying to teach you. And she went and listed all. All these amazing things that she feels like has come from this process. We did pull the kids aside four, five, six years ago and basically said, we don't believe. Like everybody else, we're struggling in our faith. Here's all the issues with the doctrine and theology that we don't believe in, and here's all the historical problems. And this is when they're like 12 and 10 and 8. 8. And then when they're 14 and then when they're 16. We've been having these conversations for quite a bit, and they went inactive with us, then they came back with us, and then I went inactive again. And what Margi felt was that, number one, having candid and open conversation with the kids about these difficult things, number one, has made them very thoughtful and mature about life. And I don't want to brag about my kids and, you know, we're all unfinished products. But going through this family process of processing, the difficulties with Mormonism has led to a level of depth and maturity and thoughtfulness that I don't think we would have gotten if we had just sort of stuck with the program. We were never anti church to our kids. Certainly I had issues with Joseph Smith, certainly had issues with the church's treatment of things. But the way we handled it was to say, it is your journey. There is good in the church, and there are difficulties in the church, and we want you to have your own experience. You can ask us Questions you can learn from what we're doing. But we were going to work hard never to disparage the church, never to make you leave or feel like you need to leave, but to let you have your own journey, even when we had checked out completely. And we would even encourage the kids to go, and we wouldn't go if we sensed that they wanted or needed it so that they wouldn't feel like they had to choose between their loyalty to us or their desires to go. And. And what we feel that allowed the kids to do was at a formative stage disconnect from the formula that is correlated sort of vanilla pablum Mormonism, because they were never going to be normal cookie cutter because of who their parents were and because of all the information that we gave them. And I can see orthodox conservative Mormons saying, that's an awful thing to do because you're in Geoffrey Holland's talk about how you're poisoning future generations comes to mind. And it's probably risky theoretically and maybe even in practice to one extent. But what we found is that by detaching from the formulaic, they were able to own their own spirituality and own their own relationship to the church and own their own morality and ethics and social structures. And I was surprised when my daughter Anna decided she was going to go to seminary because she wanted to. And I was like, what are you doing? You don't. I don't. I'm not telling you. You have to go. And she's like, I want to go, dad. I'm like, okay. And then when she got all active again, I decided that I was going to support her. And then when Maya was feeling sort of atheistic, I felt like I wanted to support that. But then she started wanting to go again. And finally, Margi and I were pretty much inactive, and Ann and Maya and Clara just were all feeling spiritually and emotionally called to church. And you could say it was just social manipulation or pressure, but we feel like they were doing it with their full emotional, spiritual, social, and intellectual senses all intact, having a full knowledge of our issues and everything. That's what they chose to do or have been choosing to do for now. And that allows for. That's a gift to children. It's a gift of authenticity. There's like this. There's this, like, veneer. Not a veneer. There's this, like, permeation of authenticity in our family where you say what you feel, you say what you think. You can disagree, you can make decisions that are different, and, you know, knock on wood, who knows how this is all going to end. But nobody's in their closets anymore and everybody feels like they're doing what they need to do. And most importantly, our kids absolutely know that we will love them no matter what. If they're gay or lesbian, we will love them. If they're devout, dogmatic, believing Mormons, we will love them. If they leave the church and never want anything to do with it, we will love them. And I think at the end, one of the central things that every human wants is to feel like they're going to be loved unconditionally for whatever choice they make. And again, knock on wood. We feel like our kids feel that and we feel like that's been a good thing. Our kids have a level of tolerance that they wouldn't have had before. They love their gay uncle, they love their gay cousin, they, they stick up for gay kids at school that are made fun of, sometimes to their own social peril. And how wonderful of a gift it is that they love atheist people. They don't look down on other churches. They believe that all churches have truth and good, and they don't judge smokers and they don't judge drinkers and they don't judge people. You know, they worry about the dangers of those things, but they no longer believe that people are inherently more or less valuable based on their distance too close to or from the church or religion. And I hope they continue that. I think that they will. But this whole journey has helped them get to that point. They respect differences. And the bizarre thing is right now all four want the church in their lives in spite of everything. So it's kind of ironic and anecdotally, I have evidence to support this that if you want your kids to stay in the church in the 21st century, this is your best bet at making that possible. And I think your least, you know, for the dogmatic orthodox people who want to criticize me or this approach, it's the ones who've been raised close minded, bigoted, sheltered, judgmental, rigid. They're the ones who break most often and leave. And it's just ironic because I can't even say now I'm really excited that they're totally active or really want them to leave now. I just want them to be happy. But it's just ironic that doing these things that most people would say would destroy their relationship with the church by letting them choose. They've chosen it. There's been a lot of hard stuff too. But I think, I think I've, I think I've communicated through the. The podcast what. What those difficult things have been. So.
Sarah Collett [00:46:38] Okay, wonderful. There was another thing you wanted to say, and I've forgotten you wanted to talk about what good has come of
John Dehlin [00:46:47] it and just what I believe now. So start with your line of questioning, and then I can add those things. Okay.
Sarah Collett [00:46:57] So if you want. Yeah. No. Okay, so let's go back to the same line of questioning that you received a year ago, January 2012, and start with the top. What do you think about God?
John Dehlin [00:47:16] I consider myself a believer in God, and I'm now segmenting things into things I know, things I believe and things I just kind of hope for. And I know that I've felt some type of power and influence that I can't explain, and I know that my life is better living as a believer for me. But anything that starts moving into the form of God starts moving into the categories of belief or hope. So again, do I want loving Heavenly Mother and Father to embrace me? That's a beautiful ending to this existence. So if that happens, it's a bonus for me. But right now, it's enough to live as a believer and to plug into the resources that being a believer provides to me personally.
Sarah Collett [00:48:15] Okay. Do you believe in Jesus and do you believe in a divine Jesus?
John Dehlin [00:48:24] Kind of a similar answer. I have a knowledge that the core teachings of Jesus are profoundly true for living a good, righteous, spiritual, enlightened, compassionate, ethical life. That's where my knowledge lies. As we get to the historically, I do think that. I do think that there was a historical figure named Jesus who taught these things. Like I'm. Some have said that I've denied that Jesus ever existed. I've read the evidence for and against a little bit. And I think where I am right now is that I think there's probably was a Jesus and that he lived. So I'm not denying that the divinity stuff starts moving into the hope category. I don't know that I even hope for a version of the atonement like I've kind of mocked in the past, where there's some cosmic scale and you have a certain amount of sins and someone had to pay for it and Jesus had to take the hit for that, and God had to, you know, assign that pain to Jesus or we wouldn't have been able to go back to heaven. Like, none of that. I don't even know that I hope that's true because it feels like there are better ways for Heavenly Father to make things right and to have us all return to him. But Is there a resurrection and is there an afterlife? And did you know that's something that I think would be beautiful? And I have hope and faith in. I want to live with my family and friends and everybody else in the afterlife. I want there to be an eternal life of goodness and joy. I don't want this mortal existence to be the end of it. But if that's the way it is, that's the way it is. Where I have a strong belief again, is that my, my love and testimony in Jesus is that this historical figure did teach these truths and did die for us to help us live a higher law of love and compassion and service and charity. And those teachings as I've started to try and really apply them in my own life in the past year, have saved me from ruining my marriage, ruining my relationship with my children, ruining my own life. And so I do view Christ as my Savior, but I also recognize his core teachings in every other religious, significant religious denomination, including the non Christian ones, and see Christ's attributes in so many of the atheists and agnostics that I know, so I can call Christ my Savior and believe in those teachings and still validate every path that reflects those virtues.
Sarah Collett [00:51:39] Okay, Joseph Smith, where do we stand on the Restoration?
John Dehlin [00:51:47] I believe that the Restoration was inspired by the same force that I, that I call God. And that doesn't mean it wasn't flawed. I kind of view I Phil Barlow really helped me with this. In that thoughtful faith interview I did, he said, it's not so much the church. The church is perfect occasionally Maud, by the flaws of mankind. It's more like the church is completely mortal and flawed. And it's one group of people's attempt to understand and interact with the divine. And I think that every major religion that exists is a group of people trying to collectively understand spirituality and God. And so I believe that Mormonism is as legitimate as any incarnation of a people's attempt to access the divine and the power of the divine and the beauties of the divine. And yeah, it's a mess, but every other religion is a mess. It's if you peel back the covers and secularism is a mess and science is a mess and they're all beautiful. And I see the restoration as a legitimate spiritual and social endeavor enterprise.
Views on Church Leadership and the Future of Mormon Stories
Sarah Collett [00:53:26] So what about the Brethren now today, in terms of being called, inspired to
John Dehlin [00:53:33] lead, I believe that the brethren are really good men. I believe that they are spiritually in tune in many ways and live in many ways lives of virtue and service and of Christlike lives I believe that in many ways, they are enlightened in ways that I'm not. And I respect their authority to lead this church and absolutely believe that they're attempting to tap into the same divinity that I'm attempting to tap into. And to be honest, the difference between me and them is that they have a different sense of responsibilities and obligations that I have only come to fully appreciate once I started to try and grow my own organization and saw how complex it is to lead a group of people. It's terribly complex and fraught with difficulty. And so, you know, do I wish that they were more progressive on women's issues and race issues and. And gender and sexuality issues? Yes. Do I feel like they make wrong decisions? Yes. But I respect their character. I respect their manifestations of spirituality. And I think, all in all, they've done a really fantastic job leading this church to what it's become, which is over 14 million people, millions of wonderful families and people and people who go out in the world and do really important and significant things, who are governors and presidential candidates and Senate majority leaders and politicians and mothers and businessmen. All the Mormons I know are generally just good, kind, loving people. Not better than others, but good. And I believe that the way the Brethren have led the church, you can't argue with what, you know. If a factory produces a good product, you have to respect the factory. And the Brethren have been the leaders of this. Of this organization, and I. I see it as a positive enterprise, and I respect their mantle.
Sarah Collett [00:56:03] Where do you see Mormon stories going? What's the future in terms of your podcast cast?
John Dehlin [00:56:11] I, you know, I'm in a. It's a. It's a. I'm always at a crossroads. But donations have been slipping as of late. I'm not, like, playing a violin and saying, feel sorry for me. I've been able to make a good living off Mormon stories. My support has been very generous, and it's frankly allowed me to. I'm very grateful, and it's allowed me to go through my PhD without any debt. And, you know, our cars are kind of beat up and our kids get a lot of their clothes from Plato's Closet and Deseret Industries. And, you know, we've sacrificed a ton of income that we could have made in our retirement, but at the same time, I'm super grateful for the support we've received. But because I've gone back and forth so much, like, a lot of the believers became alienated when I started getting negative, and then a lot of the angry or disaffected people now that I've kind of put the brakes on the negativity have also. And then there's so many podcasts now. There's a million of them, million Mormon podcasts now. And some, lots of people just move on. They lose interest. They just don't want to hear another hour of talking about Mormonism. So, you know, donations are in decline and I'm trying to find out what to do that would still be interesting. To be honest. I think what you and Jared and Natasha and Dan are doing is a lot more interesting than what I'm doing. So I don't know, if the donations keep going away, I won't be able to financially keep doing this. So that would just make it stop. But, you know, I'm going to graduate hopefully in two and a half years. I have another year and a half of school. It's a six year program. Then I'm going to do my internship. And ideally, what Margi and I want to do together is start a practice where we do couples counseling, where we do couples retreats, where we do therapy for individuals who either in a crisis of faith or gay and lesbian sexuality issues or marital couples. You know, we would really like to parlay this into an attempt to help people in pain, but from hopefully a place that's more grounded and emotionally connected and spiritually connected and loving and virtuous and kind and all those good virtues. So that's the goal. Who knows if that's going to become a reality. I've still got my dissertation to defend and neuroscience, neuropsych to take and those types of things. But, you know, if we can find a good rhythm, the future would be me and Margi doing our best to help people live happy, healthy lives to the extent that we can help and have the podcast be an arm of helping people find happiness and what form that takes, I actually have no idea because I don't know how to keep it interesting. Like before it was get Richard Bushman or get Grant Palmer or get Daniel Peterson or let's talk about polygamy or sex or, you know, controversial things. And I'm just sick of that. I'm sick of the historical stuff. I'm sick of the controversy. I just want to help make people's lives better. And it's hard to do that in a way that's interesting. So I'm. I guess I'm making an appeal to people who have visions for how I can turn Mormon stories into something wholly constructive and not step on a thoughtful faith's toes, I extend that invitation of ideas. And if it's just time for us to be like Seinfeld and sign off, that's okay, too.
Spiritual Future and Closing Reflections
Sarah Collett [01:00:14] So in terms of your spiritual future, what are you looking for?
John Dehlin [01:00:28] As I think back to a way to conceptualize my path is to dig back into my childhood when my parents got divorced. And, you know, I was just. Just. I thought we had a great family, and I thought our family was going to be eternal. I thought my. The world of my parents and the idea of anything other than that just didn't seem possible. So when my parents got divorced when I was, like, in sixth or seventh grade, I think that was really devastating to me. And, you know, my sisters were way older, so they had gone away to college, so I never really got to connect with them. My brother was, you know, in high school, and he was living his life. And I got this. I think as I look back now, I got this feeling that people leave you and people disappoint you and you can't really rely on anybody, any one person, because ultimately they're going to fail you. So what I think I did is I said, okay, well, then I'm going to be as social as I can, make as many meaningful relationships as I can, work as hard as I can, study as hard as I can, do as well in school as I can, be as successful as I can. And I will develop so much contribution that is meaningful to people and so many relationships that are, at least at a surface level, intimate, that if any one node, if any one person or group of people fails me, I'll be so busy saving the world, and I'll have so many other relationships that I'll be okay. And so it's like my life was about doing and collecting relationships. And what I'm trying to be committed to now is realizing that the first connection you have to have is with yourself. There's so many of these people that I've been working with over the past eight years. There's emotional work that you need to do with yourself. There's spiritual and psychological work that you need to do to heal from the past, to find your own inherent worth that isn't so much tied to doing, isn't so much tied to thinking, but it's tied to being, to being in the present moment, to looking at what is immediately around you and investing there first. And so to me, that involves simplifying. And I've done a little bit of a bad job with that, with all these podcasts, frankly, but I have simplified My life quite a bit without the travel, without the conferences and without the communities. It's living a life that's again, balanced between intellectual, emotional, spiritual and relationships. It's integrating exercise and diet and fun. Something that I haven't known anything about for about 20 years. Starting to have fun, starting to enjoy and live a happy, fulfilled life instead of raging against the machine. Always cerebral, always angsty. And it sounds so trite and it sounds so simplistic, superficial, I don't know, but I've got a taste. I've got six to nine months of it. And I could just tell you it's as sweet as the way Lehi describes the fruit on the tree. Living a life that has your health at the center and then your most important relationships as the primary investment. Your spouse, your partner, your children, and then. And then going from there, doing what you can, but most importantly, being emotionally connected and spiritually connected. It's born beautiful fruits for me. And it means that I can't be the savior of the world. It means that I got to put the ring down and throw it into the pits of Mordor. It means that I. It means that I. It means that I have to stop and read to my son before he goes to bed and listen to my teenagers when they put down the podcast and listen to my teenagers when they come in and want to talk. It means I have to be there emotionally for my wife and listen to her and value what she has to say and connect with her. For me, it means going to church and getting that spiritual nutrition that I need and investing in the ward and in my elders quorum and in the friendships here in my community. And that needs to be my foundation. And if I do anything above that, it's got to be with that stuff in place. And so that's where I want to leave it. And if I never do another interview, I hope that that's what I leave with, with everybody, is that this feels like the right path. And it's one that if I ever stray from, I hope you guys will remind me that, that, that this is the way and I hope to stick with it. So we'll see.
Sarah Collett [01:06:31] Thank you so much. I've had a wonderful time listening to you and I know I don't want to be one of those people that thinks John Dehlin, but I really do appreciate everything you've had to say.
John Dehlin [01:06:48] Well, Sarah, you're doing great work and you and Mike are doing great work and I wish this podcast all the best. And to all the listeners out there, sorry for all my mistakes, but thanks for your support, and let's all grow together in good ways.
Sarah Collett [01:07:04] All right, let's do it.
Guest [01:07:05] Come thou fount of every blessing to my heart to sing them grace thank
John Dehlin [01:07:16] you for joining us today on a thoughtful faith. To discuss this podcast, check us out@athoughtfulfaith.org the music from this podcast was generously donated by Lisa Frazier. Hear more from her@lisafraser.com come.
Guest [01:07:38] I'll praise the mountain I'm fixed upon it Mount of thy redeeming love. Here I ra Use my echo music hither by thy help I come and I hope by thy good pleasure Safely to arrive at home Jesus sought me with a stranger Wandering from the fold of God he to rescue me from danger Insupport his precious blood O to grace how great a debtor Daily art concern strength to be Let thy goodness like a fer Bind my wondering heart to be prone to all the Lord I feel it prone to live the God I love here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for thy corners above open to wonder Lord, I feel it come to thee the God I love oh, here's my heart for taking feeling for I.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
250 Responses
Hi John:
I am very appreciative for your interview. As always, thank you for your time.
With regards to Part 1, call me disappointed.
(1) Where regards to the NYC/GA interview… I am disappointed that this never happened. I am also disappointed that you didn’t post any follow interview up with just the GA himself. Maybe circumstance didn’t allow. Regardless, this is disappointing.
Regarding what you heard about this meeting: Shocked. The Church leadership is disappointed that involved, WEALTHY tithe payers are leaving The Church?
(2) Regarding your FIRST visit with the Apostle, you failed to ask the most relevant questions? Of course The LDS Church wants everyone to remain “in the tent”… even if they are half way out. Call me antagonistic, but I interpret this to mean “Yes John, we want the tithing dollars”. Come on… where are the good follow up questions? I have included a few questions that I wish you would have asked.
Q1 ● “How do you expect someone to remain in the tent when they cannot fully participate? What I mean by that is there are lots of NOMish members who cannot attend the temple simply because their integrity won’t let them say that they believe in God… or in the Prophetic calling of TSM. But many of these people live a very ethical and moralistic life style. In fact, many of these people are probably more ‘worthy’ than many of the sociopaths that get recommends. But The Church excludes these members because of their integrity.”
Q2 ● As a follow up to Q1, why can’t The LDS Church take a more open/accepting approach to literal non-believers (similar to that of the CoC)?
Q3 ● When will The Church come clean about heavenly visits? We all know that you don’t have them.
Q4 ● When will The Church finally release financial statements. Shouldn’t the general membership know that you have been VERY well compensated for your service?
Q5 ● When will The LDS Church finally fix Sunday services. Come on… 19th Century Protestant Reform services are boring. And The LDS Church/culture has made them worse. Can we fix this? As a personal experience, my WARD didn’t even have a Christmas service on the Sunday before Christmas. Instead, we had [boring] farewell.
And you could have gone on and on and on. Disappointing!
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Years ago emailed you to say that you had become too antagonistic towards The Church. Now me thinks that the Strengthening Church Members Committee found some dirt on you. Is The Church blackmailing you? ;-)
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John, you are my voice. I think The LDS Church is a crap organization. I feel like I have been betrayed/lied to. I think The Church does a lot of harm (more harm then good). And my newly found disbelief makes it so I can no longer defend The Church. But I cannot voice my disappointment and sadness. They would just mail my letter back to my local authority. In short, outside of individuals such as yourself, I have not voice.
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Around 1:02-1:03 you said, “No one cared.” Are you referring to the meeting between the GA and the ‘Big Wigs’? Or are you saying that no one cared about the findings (after your released them early)? If it is the former, how disappointing! But SADLY, this is how I already perceived things to be. :-(
John, interesting podcast. I had three comments but they were too long. Here are three short ones.
1) I’m sorry the podcast exacted such a high personal price from you. I wish you happiness with your reconstructed faith. I mean that, in spite of the next two comments.
2) Make no mistake, your stake president did not leave the 99 and go after the 1 any more than mine did. He left the 99 and went after the 40,000. It looks like he was quite well rewarded for his gargantuan effort. The founder of MormonStories reconstructed his faith before 40,000 doubters. Not bad at all. No other individual would get so much attention, John. I think it’s hard to deny that. He may be a good and sincere man – but sincerity means absolutely nothing. Ultimately, they brought you back by preventing you from baptizing your son. That is, after all, their modus operandi. Keep the damn doubters from baptizing their children or witnessing their daughter’s marriage. It’s your story and I am not qualified to criticize you. I didn’t even have the courage to share my story. I do wish, though, that all of us could ignore the church’s most hypocritical characteristic and remain comfortable with our doubts regardless of the church practice of bullying.
3) If I kick a Muslim while he is facing East and praying, that is disrespectful. If I discuss why the Muslims face East while praying, that is not disrespectful, even if I comment that I think praying towards the East is without efficacy. You allowed the church to define what it means to respect other’s beliefs. Their definition is poppycock! Silence is not respect. Talking openly about the realities of the temple is more respectful than the vague and misleading summaries the church provides in the temple preparation classes.
John,
Thank you for this podcast … but I think you are wrong in one respect … the ring has not been thrown into Mordor yet. The ring is only half way through the story.
I wish you the best in everything. You deserve happiness as all of us do. I wish you a boring life ;-)
peace.
John,
You have lost a huge chunk of your supporters. They feel hurt and betrayed. You were their voice and their hope for change, but all of that is gone. Your yo-yoing is very strange and bizarre behavior. Take a stand and stick to it!
Michelle,
I’m really sorry that you and others feel hurt and betrayed. I am only doing the best I can to live my life in a way that’s best for my family and for myself. I don’t know what else to say….other than that I’m sorry for your pain, and that I’m doing the best I can.
John
I think that this is more or less how some of our general authorities feel. They don’t know quite what to do, they are in the spotlight, everyone wants them to tell them what they want to hear at the right time, and no matter what you say or do you will never please everyone. The bottom line is that John has to do what is best for himself and his family. That is part of what John’s message has been for so long. He is saying don’t follow me. Follow your own heart and connection with God. John, you never need to apologize for anything, even if it means making someone upset or mad. Your journey is your own journey as just because we (listeners) have decided to go along with the ride doesn’t mean we own you or your decisions. I don’t want anyone owning mine. Stand tall!
Rob
Ditto to what Rob said.
double ditto
Thanks, Rob. I really appreciate this perspective.
I really appreciate all you’ve done. As someone whose opinions and plans about the church change on the hour I can appreciate the position you are in and applaud that at least you have the integrity to be honest and do it publicly. You’ll never lose my support. whether you stay in the church forever or leave for good, all any of us can do is what feels right at the time. I’ve learned to never say never and totally support the fact that there is no right or wrong path, it’s just what feels right to any particular person.
John, I am so happy that you did this interview. I can not even begin to understand the disappointment expressed above. Know that many, many people do appreciate your voice & your desire to hang in there and try and make things better for everyone! Bless you!
It reminds me of what Emerson said:
“Speak what you think now in hard words, and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today. — ‘Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.’ — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.”
You put it much more nicely than I did, Michelle, but that is kind of how I felt. I wonder where my comments went from late last night early this morning? I can’t see mine or Randall’s. Katrina says she can see mine but I can’t. I wonder if I am blocked because I was not so happy about Part three. Hope it all turns out OK for both John D and the rest of us. This is NOT an easy journey. At least John has the support of his wife when he is IN and when he is OUT. EXTRAORDINARY WOMAN that Marg. I AM happy for them that they are on the same page.
To me, his so-called yo-yoing is further evidence of authenticity. Life issues move all of us along an unscripted continuum and John’s sentiments move to the forces and emotions on him. If he were ALWAYS positive and upbeat, I may become suspicious; John’s comments to Sarah are his honest reply to honest questions.
Oh please! Michelle and anyone else who gives John grief – He IS taking a stand, or you wouldn’t be upset. Thank goodness people are allowed to grow, learn and yes, even change.
John,I appreciate all you have done, and your podcast have been a part of my information diet as I dealt with my own faith issues. I commend you for your intent and for finding a harbor in the tempest.
John,
I wish you well and respect your decision. I really appreciate all you’ve done. But this pod cast is making me really sad and stirring up all kinds of emotions. I am not angry, I just feel sad….
John:
Thanks for your work. You are inspiring. To me, the yo-yoing you have been accused of is evidence ofa thoughtful, examined, and nuanced life.
I hope you have found peace. You deserve it.
Mike
John,
I wish you well and respect your decision. Having said that, I wonder if a notation will appear on your membership record all of your days. Perhaps it doesn’t matter though, you can help so many more via professional consultation and outreach.
Shalom.
One could reasonably guess that you met with Elder Holland who might have expressed a desire to avoid a Copernican or Galilein moment. Elder Nelson’s recent comments about the very topics Copernicus and Galileo addressed – cosmology – make it extraordinarily difficult for the scientifically literate to take any of the message seriously.
The tent flap is open, we’re listening carefully, but as long as general authorities continue to make pronouncements that patently contradict observed phenomena the church will continue to lose the best and the brightest.
I was guessing Elder Scott…Chile, physics, love…but that’s irrelevant.
Can someone provide me a synopsis? I ran out of time to hear the update after I listened to the first third of the cast….but I would love to know where John stands right now. Thanks!
John, I thought this was a great podcast and ignore the haters leaving comments. I really enjoyed listening and think, though we sometimes disagree, I have a lot of respect.
Thanks, Joseph!!!
I’m guessing Part 2 & 3 aren’t up yet but part 1 has been very, very interesting. Thank you for sharing John and thank you for carrying the ring. I have vascillated back and forth with my position on the Church but I have always been grateful to come hear to find sympathetic voices and helpful insights regardless of where I was at. Thanks!
Hey John,
I want to finish listening but I can’t get #2 or #3 to play or download. I have tried on my iPhone, a Mac and a PC. I have tried several different browsers etc. Not sure if there are any technical issues going on as it seems that some have listened to it in full.
I want to recommend this podcast to the whole world but are hoping that you can clear up the technical difficulties that some of us are having. I tried it on three different devices at two locations and it stops frequently.
But, John, there are no words to express my respect and admiration for you and the tone you set, the principles you set forth and the respectful and measured way in which you discuss these ideas. This is masterful.
John, I’m only through the first part. Up front, I am glad you have done this interview. Many of us “watch” what you do and say — not so much to “follow your example,” but as our version of entertainment. Call it a religious soap opera — not meant as an insult, just that many of us are beyond believing in superstition and enjoy observing fantasy stories like anybody else!
Much of how you described your journey falls directly into the narrative we grew up with in the church and can be attributed to and explained by many of the concepts James Nagel described in his interview with you last year. I was disappointed that you even gave credence to those saying you had “lost the Spirit” as you were in your disaffection phase. Isn’t that simple self-preservation psychology allowing one to continue in their contradictory belief? You might be amazed at how many people I’ve had brief conversations with since leaving the church who say “you look healthy and happy,” only to change their tune when they learn I’ve resigned from Mormonism. Simple confirmation bias, and I would think you would at least acknowledge that possibility…as your staying “in” keeps peace in your personal life, but may keep you from being open to new information.
The other disappointment I have is your labeling your doubting as “prideful arrogance.” Again, doesn’t that fall directly into what the church would call it even if it is the truth? I’m sure Galileo and Copernicus were labeled the same by the “church” for their insistence in science.
I will give you props for continuing to walk the “middle-way” tightrope. Have you ever considered politics? (lol). Most of us don’t have the patience to appease both sides for as long as you have…and I still think you are doing a lot of good by that position. I’m sure I’ll have more thoughts after finishing the rest of the interview. I do thank you again for your honesty and disclosure.
Rick,
Thanks so much for writing! A few quick responses:
1) As you know, I use many religious terms somewhat metaphorically now. When I say “lost the spirit” I don’t necessarily mean that the Holy Ghost personage literally departed from my soul/being. I use the term a bit more culturally….in that I felt like over time I was becoming less spiritual, less enlightened, less kind, less loving, a worse husband/father, less patient, etc. And I hope I made it super clear in the interview that I do not at all equate leaving the church with joy/happiness for all. I was only sharing my experience. I completely believe that some people are more happy/joyful/moral once they leave. It’s a completely personal experience.
2) I totally still believe in confirmation bias….but I don’t feel like I’m struggling with contradictory beliefs. I feel like I’ve been able to harmonize my beliefs and thoughts as of late…vs. abandon them. I totally admit that I could be blinded/biased though….
3) When I talk about “prideful arrogance” I don’t mean to say that people who doubt/question are prideful or arrogant…only that this particular path that I took….led me down a road to the point where I felt like I became prideful and arrogant…and very negative. And that this spilled over everywhere in my personal life. At home. At school. With extended family and friendships. I got to a very dark place emotionally and spiritually….that’s all I’m trying to say. I’m not trying to speak for, or judge anyone else.
Thanks for YOUR thoughtful response, John. I’ll respond briefly by saying that in MY EXPERIENCE — and that is all I can really speak confidently to — while “struggling” with my faith, I appeared to members similarly to how you described your demeanor. I even believed it all for a minute. Had “the spirit” left me? Was I angry? Did my oppositional approach to so many things mormon “prove” that I was untrustworthy and spiritless? Since my behaviors were also unbecoming of a good mormon, it fit the narrative perfectly for them.
And the way the culture pits “us” versus “them,” I was admittedly in an unhappy place. My life had been turned upside down and I had no idea what to do the next day.
My point is that that process is completely normal and common to us doubters (of course you know that). Call it Kubler-Ross mourning stages, anxiety and uncertainty from losing so much, or simple anger from the fear of the unknown…I’ve seen it time and time again.
None of this has anything to do with truth or historical facts…and I get frustrated when anybody seemingly attaches emotion to facts, and I sensed a bit of that in part one.
Admittedly I am rushing to judgment here, as my part two is taking about 3 hours to download! More discussion to follow I’m sure…thanks again for your willingness to dialogue!
It fir
Hi John…finished all three last night. Very interesting. A few more thoughts:
* Nobody knows how this story ends — you included. Keep connected to THIS support system, as it may be there for you in some certain-to-be cog-dis times.
* The best thing you’ve done here is prioritize your family. I’ve been surprised at how full your plate has been, and you need your personal life back to have any sort of peace through all this. This is a good move for that.
* I think (and I could be wrong here, and that’s okay) you are convincing yourself that the church is okay in many ways that deeper down you know it is not. I think you may come to realize that the devil on your shoulder is actually the church rather than the opposite way you’ve been seeing it. Yes, there are great, loving people in the church — as there are in every culture. The church HAS great people. That doesn’t make the church great. Unless YOU can help bring integrity to the church and effect change in real morality — equal rights, honesty in history, REAL self-help guidelines rather than artificial commandments that conflict with reality, and true personal empowerment rather than a pay/pray/obey paradigm — you will have frustration at every meeting you attend and hear false teachings and stories. That will take its toll. Talk to us when that happens. Some of us have been there and can help.
Many have said you’ve hit your bottom. IMO it’s been soft. We are here for you when it becomes a problem for you. WE love you, my friend. Remember that!
Rick,
Love you brother. And I totally agree that none of us are done w/ our respective journeys…and that I very well may find myself right back in the post-Mormon world when all is said and done (heck…I could still get excommunicated…who knows??!?!?!).
Thanks for allowing me my journey, and for making me feel welcome if I ever need to return. I hope you feel the same sentiments from me.
Again, love you, brother.
John
I’ve left 2 comments and they keep disappearing and then reappearing. What’s going on?
Michelle – Your original comment is included above. The other one was a comment about the first one disappearing.
Hey Everyone — I think that download demand has exceeded server resources. I’m working on a workaround…but it may take some time because I’m away from home. I’ll get it worked out by end of day. So sorry for the delay. :(
Phew! I thot my new service provider was dropping the ball. Anxiously awaiting the last half to see your path is similar to mine…
Wow! That apostle must have promised JD a spot in the ranks or something! What a complete 180. So it’s all true and right and good now? All the research and fault finding and problems are okay now because an apostle had a special meeting with John? Wow! The rest of us get to be disfellowshipped or shunned or whatever because we don’t have the right connections, something I thought really bothered John? And how can one possibly pretend to believe it all again? Weird it’s just weird
Danielle – You must have not listened to the podcast.
Did the reply to this post get deleted? I saw it briefly appear with the statement that “you had struck a deal … ” etc … etc … Not understanding the power struggles that happen within the church I would not be surprised either way … although the GA must have been coming with a particularly weak hand as your compromise was to basically say that what the church teaches as true is most likely not but you will have faith and hope that it is. It would be a fair compromise if the church were willing to take some step towards us that have become uncorrelated (love that word :-) ) … lol I think a good first step would be to make D Michael Quinn an apostle! But, short of that, its not clear to me what the rest of us gain by a “change of heart.”
Clearly she didn’t. I got nearly all 3 episodes in today, although I had to keep pausing and allowing it to buffer. Only about 16 minutes left of the 3rd. Thank you John for doing the interviews. As I have been struggling with my faith and everything, I appreciate your honesty and how you are making it work for you! I can easily see that I could go to that dark and negative place, and I am trying hard to make it work and not go there, for cultural, social, and family reasons. Thanks for your honesty!
Of course inhave
John, You really got the good cop, bad cop treatment from Church, didn’t you? It is amazing that you fell for it. I took part in the survey trusting that you would do what you said you would do with the information. And through the podcast I learned the following things:
you had the opportunity to serve the truth and set others free, but you chose the easier path to serve the benevolent church instead. The church effectively bought the survey data from you and subsequently kept it from the public eye, never to be seen again as they have with so many facts. I am very disappointed and actually angry at you! I had hoped that this project would have amounted to something other than more church propaganda.
You are kidding right? https://www.whymormonsquestion.org/2012/05/21/understanding-mormon-disbelief-march-2012-results-and-analysis/
I was going to just email you, but I want others to see my positive comment. :-) I still haven’t been able to finish the third section but figured I’d comment now anyway. John, I have so much respect for you. You have been a friend to so many, including me. I appreciate all the work and sacrifices you have made. That said, I am SO SO SO happy for you that you are focusing on your family and your own well-being. I think this step back has been a long time coming.
I will admit that I am somewhat surprised that a return to full activity is where your spiritual path has taken you, but I am thrilled that you are feeling at peace. Obviously, for many of us we find that peace and emotional/spiritual well-being outside of the church. But the GOOD that you speak of can be found in or out. It is heartening to hear that you are finding it within. And a good reminder for those of us who no longer participate, that it can be good for some to remain engaged.
I really loved that you talked about intellectual vs. emotional/spiritual because that is something that I experienced on my path as well. I spent a good year in purely intellectual pursuit as I explored the issues with the church. Then I had an experience that brought the emotion into it. For me, being more in touch with my emotional reactions led me to stop going. For me that was the right decision. I am happy to hear that you have found the path that is working for you. Much love to you!
Great interview, John. I really felt that you were being pretty candid throughout the whole interview (as you always are), though I do have one fear on how this interview will, potentially, be received by others in the grand scheme of your work/legacy–especially by leaders of the Church who deal with faith crises/historical issues with members:
You mentioned that, after meeting with your Stake President for sometime, you felt the need to confess your sins to him (and did confess them). This sounds like a gradual process that occurred as you gained more trust and love with him. Also during this time, you began to regrow spiritually and emotionally, stopped your activism to some degree, and returned to full activity within the Church.
On the outside looking in, I could see many leaders of the Church (including GAs that you have met with during your journey) say that, obviously, John’s issues with the Church (e.g., historicity, truth claims, etc.) really never were issues at all, but simply a cover for his own admitted pride and sinfulness. John must’ve been involved in adultery of some kind, pornography, masturbation, etc., and only by humbling and confessing his sins to a priesthood leader was he allowed to again feel the spirit and regain a testimony. To me, this just further reinforces the falsehood that faith crises are ultimately explained by sin. I, personally, really hate that to be the closing chapter in all of this. Maybe I’m reading too much into this (and I don’t mean to offend), but that’s kind of how I see this interview being received by many.
Thoughts?
John, I imagine that for some of your listeners, this may feel a bit like being on a long, hard journey with a dear friend, and suddenly your friend hops off the train and you are still making that journey…now just more alone than you were. The thing about friendship though that I am realizing lately is that we know we are TRUE friends with someone when we are close enough to see more than just the things we enjoy and admire about them, but we see them and love them completely and we make a conscious choice to accept all of them…even the parts that don’t serve our own needs. We also know friendships are deep and true when our desire for our friend’s happiness outweighs our desire for them to act in a way that fulfills our personal needs. Along the lines of Life of Pi (just read it last night), perhaps we are all telling different stories or are on different “boats” (the ones that bring each of us the most peace), yet earnest hearts are all rowing in the same direction. Love and support, and overwhelming GRATITUDE to you John for the way that your efforts in Mormon Stories have blessed my own life this past year. You are exceptional.
John,
I am concerned … It seems you have deleted a post in which the author claims that you struck a deal with Holland. Perhaps the post was too strident although in reading it it seems fine but a little confrontational … rather it seems that it was deleted to prevent a discussion of this possibility. I have a copy of the original post and I am not sure what to do with it? It seems that it is something that should at least be addressed … not something that should be hidden.
in response to Danielle:
Wow! That apostle must have promised JD a spot in the ranks or something! What a complete 180. So it’s all true and right and good now? All the research and fault finding and problems are okay now because an apostle had a special meeting with John? Wow! The rest of us get to be […]
That apostle was Jeffery Holland and yes, most believe some deal was struck. Elder Holland “killed” the hit piece that Gregory L. Smith had just written on Dehlin. He was going to publish it but Holland stopped it. That happened at exactly the same time John announced he was miraculously doing a 180 and returning to the church. He’s lost the respect and trust of everyone I know who once believed in him. Now so many are discussing his betrayal and we know the truth behind it.
I understand that this post as well might get moderated … would be nice to have your response.
Sam, would love to see the post that was deleted
It is copied in the above post … it is the part referencing Holland. I should have put quotes around it.
That post is still visible to me.
That is good to hear. The part that I am seeing deleted is this:
“That apostle was Jeffery Holland and yes, most believe some deal was struck. Elder Holland “killed” the hit piece that Gregory L. Smith had just written on Dehlin. He was going to publish it but Holland stopped it. That happened at exactly the same time John announced he was miraculously doing a 180 and returning to the church. He’s lost the respect and trust of everyone I know who once believed in him. Now so many are discussing his betrayal and we know the truth behind it.”
Sorry, I didn’t quote it earlier. I copied it from an email that I received because I am following this thread.
I can assure you that no deal of any kind was struck. Not even a trace of a deal. Nada.
John,
Thank you for your response. And for your podcast. That is all I needed to hear and is enough for me. Could you address the deleted post? Perhaps it was deleted by the author (if that is even possible?) I doubt very much that you would enter into a deal of this nature as your podcast is not exactly positive for the church in my view. I cannot see what the church would gain from such subterfuge.
I delete posts that are mean-spirited. If I deleted a post, that was why.
John,
My apologies. It is true that such a post could be viewed as mean-spirited. I appreciate the atmosphere of dialogue on this site and it is the reason I keep coming back.
I am happy to play the internet troll, or golum (as the case may require) because I believe in what you are trying to do.
Thank you for modeling a graceful, dignified, truthful interaction with Mormonism.
Oh the conspiracies. What’s so hard about taking John at his word? He has been honest throughout his experience. The signs were there. I saw his facebook posts a year ago asking for someone to post something that would make him happy. He was obviously not at peace during that time. He found that being moderately active in the church brought harmony to his family, and to his personal “spritual” schism. He is a firmly agnostic Mormon. I know where he’s coming from emotionally. The exmormon forums are pretty intense and antagonistic. They are full of pain and anger. While I fully empathize with that pain and anger, it’s hard to stay in that emotional state for long. He’s needs healing time for his family, so give him a break.
Sam, you’re killing me with your theories. John is not anyone’s puppet. If you feel that John betrayed you (during his “complete 180”), reassess why you look to John to be your spokesman. John is on a journey; he’s let us all listen in. If pleased, then great. If not, that’s fine too.
SIM,
I would like to reply to your “spokesman” comment…
You are fully correct that people should not have looked to John as a spokesperson.
However, John was a strong voice for those that did not fit in the church “mold” – one way or another. John made it OK to be a Fowler stage-5, to not believe that it is the “one and only true church, to be in limbo. People listened to him because HE COULD RELATE to the pain and suffering people felt in THEIR journeys. He became an advocate for many of us, his listeners.
We do not have podcasts with thousands of faithful listeners, we do not have such connections or possibilities to influence. But that was OK, because we had John. He was on our side! He saw us and he listened to us!
John, kindly, let us journey with him. But, in some ways, HE also journeyed with US!
His podcast has been a sanity check for many of us – a bridge between HEART (stay in the church to not stir up trouble) and BRAIN (shout the historical facts from the mountaintop). Now that bridge is gone. Many of us are ready to fly (do not need to choose between Heart OR Brain), but some of us are not…
It is not John’s fault if people became dependent! But, without the balanced “voice of reason” – that John always represented – that SANE MIDDLE GROUND is gone.
Some people, who can yet not fly, will now find themselves drift towards the church while others may drift towards intellectualism. [I mean “drift” in an involuntary movement, caused by external pressures.]
People got comfortable about John to represent them and to stand up for them. And EVEN if he was “just a voice on a podcast” it was still something that people needed. John DID become an unintentional spokesperson! It was never intended and it is tragic (and to some even mockable) that it came to this, but the fact is that he did.
The frustration and anger many people let out, towards John, on this blog is due to pain and grief. They feel that they have lost a friend, someone that was standing up for them. They feel abandoned and they are in shock over his decision to go back to church. I think it is the loss of middle ground that hurts, not the church-stance per se.
I dare to say that, ALL of us who post here have one thing in common; WE ALL LOVE JOHN! That is WHY we care (even if it may be a selfish love for some of us).
Chris, thanks for your long reply; I better understand your position. Like many, I am on the same continuum, somewhere left of TBM; and trying to fix/rebuild/replace my foundation while maintaining the full structure of my life atop it.
I close with 3 points:
1.) John’s space and journey may continue to be in flux. At the moment, he’s trending right toward TBM but I/we must give him latitude to move again; he may again be on the continuum near you.
2.) No matter where John is, he has given emotional aid to others on the faith continuum; and I am sad if you feel it has been at the expense of others who are somewhat more distance on that continuum. Over the months, John and I have been at different spots on the continuum yet I was still refreshed by his podcasts because of the journey, not the absolute or instantaneous spot in which we each stood. Please take heart in that.
3.) If I can distill a most-valued drop from all of John’s podcasts, it is this: regardless of where a person lands, either in or out of the Church, and I/you/we/they have taken this similar journey, they remain my friend.
Chris, I don’t know you from, well, from Adam, but I love you for sharing journey with me; and I am with you even when we stand apart on the continuum. My journey continues.
Amen to that!
While I’ve not had a chance to listen to the podcast yet, I have been reading the comments here. I have to admit (selfishly, I suppose) that I am a bit disappointed that John has chosen to make the turn around in his faith journey. I also agree that he had become the face of our plight. Someone actually out there listening and validating. Nevertheless, I’m not going to throw him under the bus as yet. That just wouldn’t be fair to him, as he has been a great influence on me, especially because of his integrity. Having said that, if I find that there’s a significant change to the tone of the podcasts towards a more apologetic approach, then it would no longer serve my purposes, which would ultimately be disappointing. I have come to look forward to listening to the podcasts because of John’s honest approach to the Mormon issues and our disaffection and faith crisis. I listen to them not just because of John, but because of the content of them and the way he addressed the many issues of Mormonism. Even if John chooses to leave Mormon Stories behind, which I would totally support if he feels that this is right for him and his family, I would hope that his replacement would have a similar approach to what we have become accustomed to. Again, if this is not the case, then I see no point in continuing my support, emotionally or financially.
However, I do love John and all I have gained from his knowledge and empathy. He is my hero. I wish him nothing but the best life has to offer him and support his decision what ere it may be.
Amen to your post Bonita!
Even with John gone, there is still a “need” for Mormon Stories – an objective and neutral take on LDS faith crisis (far from any apologetic approach).
Many thanks John, I have benefited from your quest in so many ways. I’ve always appreciated the honesty and differing opinions.
Aloha,
Hoku
Hi John,
I have been a regular subscriber to your (MM and MS) podcasts for more than two years now, and I have enjoyed listening to practically every podcast of Mormon Stories and Mormon Matters. You really have done a terrific job with the podcasts, and I hope you will carry on with the great work.
I have been an LDS member for a little over two years now. I was born and raised in India, by the way, and I am the only member in my family! More than two years ago, when I had just begun to show a genuine interest in the Church, among other things such as going to church every Sunday, reading scripture and participating in church activities, I scoured the Internet for opinions, reviews or any material that provided a balanced view/opinion of the Church and its history. I found many voices, both favorable and critical/cynical, and I listened to them all. But, your voice stood apart from the rest and it sounded much more balanced and mature, and very soon I began gravitating toward the MS and MM podcasts. I found in them a lively discussion of everything related to Mormonism. And, throughout, your honesty and openness have always appealed to my own approach toward Mormonism. I daresay your voice played a significant role in my path toward becoming a member of the Church. Of course, there were other bigger factors that played their roles, but yours was important too. So, thanks!
I am a very active member, and despite my differences with most members from my ward, some political, others cultural, I simply love and cherish their friendship and fellowship! I have walked on many different spiritual paths before – Hindu and Buddhist – and I have learned quite a few things from them all, but for some reason Mormonism has always stood out. I don’t mean to diminish the significance and value that other spiritual paths may offer to non-members, of course. But, just going to church every Sunday and serving all my callings to the best of my ability has provided me with a robust and vigorous spiritual development that I couldn’t find or see in other paths. And, I commend you on your journey, thus far, with all its ups and downs!
Whether you remain active in church or prefer to be inactive, your voice will always help many people in navigating the waters of faith with a balanced approach and attitude. There is much that we can learn through Mormonism in this life, and I hope you will learn deeper and as much as you can, just as I hope the same for myself.
Once again, a heartfelt thank-you for all that you have done!
One of the things that has always struck me with Mormon Stories interviews is how long they are. To understand the person being interviewed and the fullness of the story, you have to spend a very long time listening. And the time I have devoted to listening to people’s stories has been such a gift because I’ve realised how much of our humanity we lose when we are inundated with sound bite culture that tries to sum up a person’s life or position in a short time. I feel that it has been a great privilege to listen to your long story over the years and the interviews and the podcasts and see how your views shift and evolve. I know some people want you to have a moment of enlightenment and stand fast in that one position for all of eternity, but the truth of our humanity is probably more that we doubt and question and shift our positions in our life journeys. Thank you for your honesty and for sharing your humanity with us.
YES! I love this comment…thank you for taking the TIME to listen and to tell us the whole, rich, complex story. Thanks to John and to the participants for sharing. I learn from each of you!
Thanks, msleetobe and Jamie!
I am saddened by most of these comments. After all of the countless hours and work that John has put in for those of us that have struggled in faith; and how do some respond-with anger and deceit. Don’t you undrstand that John is on a faith journey that is filled with bumps and obstacles just like we are? I am happy for you John that you are finding your way throughout the ups and downs of our religion. I will continue to follow your journey in hopes that I can continue to navigate through my prsonal maze of mormonism. So happy for you and your family!
Thanks, Richard!!!
I find it interesting that you are saddened by MOST of these comments. There have been maybe 4 of us who have breathed that we were disappointed or felt betrayed. MOST of the comments have been very affirming of John and what he has done. I love John, Mormon Stories, the groups he caused to be created etc etc etc. but I was disappointed. I get disappointed every day by lots and lots of people who I love and care about. I do not keep that a secret nor do I try to dwell on it. I think that MOST of the comments here have been very generous and have been supportive of John in everything he has done, even in his honesty that may have disappointed us and even made us mad. So sad that you came away only seeing the few of us who have made negative comments. Much like we have done in expressing our negative reaction to the few things that hit us wrong. I was only disappointed in Part 3. Anyway, hope you read the rest of the comments that are so positive, affirming, generous, loving, hopeful, inspiring etc.
Sam, I’d put you right up there with Joseph Smith in your ability to make sh!t up.
Wow! thanks … never had such a nice compliment … :-D
John, Thanks for doing this very interesting and insightful interview. You really do get it from both sides, don’t you? Your too far in for some and too far out for others. :-) It’s quite a balancing act. Ultimately, you have to do what’s right for you and your family. Only you can be the judge of that. Good luck to you and thank you for all you have done to bring together some amazing people in the MS groups and some of the best podcasts out there. Keep up the good work; fight the good fight.
Thanks, Debbie!
Hello John. I’ve been listening many of your interviews over the last year from here, Japan. All I can say is that you have done a lot of members a huge favor through your work. I’ve learned a lot from the interviews I listened to and I must say that in many cases, those interviews really prepared me for my current calling – I’m serving as a bishop. I’ve met some members, good members, including former bishops, who are strugling with many of the issues you dealt with. Some have totally lost faith in the church but are choosing to remain ‘active’ for the sake of their family. So, again big thanks to you John.
Thanks, Jimmy!!!
Thumbs up from me John. Stoked to hear you’ve reached stage 5. I think Don Bradley tells a similar story to yours. I think one has to build a relationship with God to find a way back. There are technical problems with the broadcast though; cannot download audio and live buffering is painfully slow.
WAITING PATIENTLY to download the last half…where’s your techie brother when we need him, huh!?!
Should be better now.
Technical problems with Parts 2 and 3 only.
Terry – Should be better now.
Hey all – Download should be faster now. So sorry for the wait! Let me know if it isn’t faster.
A great podcast, John! I think I went through the five stages just listening. Your weakness and your strength is, like many of us I think, your sensitivity and thoughtfulness. And putting it all out there for the masses is a courageous endeavor. I have benefitted greatly from Mormon Stories and because it has been a journey of seven years now for me trying to keep my family together while I deconstructed everything I taught them and I am still tiptoeing down this path, I hope selfishly that Mormon Stories will still be there when I need something to help me calm down and know I’m not going crazy.
And here’s what I want that General Authority to do. Get up in conference and tell the members and the other Authorities to stop hurting and judging those who stop believing or can’t believe it in the first place and just love them no matter what they believe. And find a way to let them be in their children’s weddings and no more talks about their weakness, ever !!!! Thanks John for a very thoughtful telling of where you are and where you’ve been. Good Luck!
And one thought about what you said about the sad directions some people go when they lose their faith. I really believe we have to have more podcasts and more discussion about the good in people who may not believe or have a religion. Man is not naturally an enemy to God. Some of the least religious nations on earth (Scandinavia for example) have the lowest crime rates, the lowest rates of corruption, the highest rates of care for the elderly, etc. Most people just want to be good parents, they don’t steal or commit crimes and they want love and to be looked up to. I think the churches teachings about the natural man are demeaning and a tactic to encourage dependence on the organization. And I believe most people who struggle with the church’s truthfulness continue to be good decent and honorable people. Maybe the best and the brightest as the GA said. And the church has no right to tell our families otherwise!
Hi Robert, your last paragraph struck cord with me. As a child, I was often confused by adult/teacher/parental use of the words: nature, natural, or natural man being enemy to God. In a church discussion, it was expressed what NOT TO BE; yet, in a dating discussion, it was expressed what TO BE as in “take her out, treat her kindly, and just be natural.”
I don’t want to sound naive; I understand that words have different, -often subtly different-, meanings based on context. When clarity is critically important, it is not good enough to be understood; we need to do all possible to prevent being misunderstood. This is magnified when dealing with teens, at least this one.
As word meanings migrate over time, I find comfort in reading newer editions/translation of the Bible to promote better understanding; and I feel that the Book Of Mormon may be better understood with a similar refresh. The “natural man” term may have been clear to readers in 1830s but is confusing to many in 2013. Our goal should be to promote understanding, not word allegiance.
Well done again John. So sorry to see the negatives – but as part of the nature of the beast and having ‘put yourself out there’ you have to expect it – still unfortunate. Of course you know those who seek to tear down your faith are probably still mourning the loss or cracks in their own. Although I am still in the throes of my own battles – and can feel plenty of anger at God and everything and everyone else – I celebrate those who find faith, love and truth (and do justly and love mercy). To those who are beating on John – Please friends – let us be kind – be thoughtful and truly loving to each other. Even if you can’t reconcile yourselves to all the ‘mormon training and instruction’ of previous times in your lives – please don’t cast away the teachings of respect, temperance, virtue and charity.
In spite of all the damnable mind bending conundrums of Christianity and Mormonism specifically – but its ability to inspire and create actual bone level deep empathy and goodwill among men who practice it *fully* and earnestly is nearly unparalleled. Its a reality that I’ve experienced personally and that ties me up inside to try and reconcile – to this day. John’s experience is evidence. Heart and mind = happiness.
Technically all good now. Thanks. I travelled a similar road to you john and sent several letters to the GA’s over the years with my concerns. I’ve not been a big fan of MS over the last couple of years becaudse it put me in a dark place with its intense dichotomy of views. I delved, instead, into the world of NDE’s and have come out with a similar philosophy to yours. There is something bigger than Mormonism out there, above the politics of formal religion. I’m doing my best with the Church to help people find that; and like you, having a ball doing it. Thanks for fighting for the rights of GLTB’s. Since listening to MS I ‘ve had two of my children come out. MS helped me understand and connect to them. All the best. BTW, I beleive Joseph Smith was one of the most loving men that ever walked this earth, despite his weaknesses.
Just starting the podcast and you said “parallel process” which made me smile because you are clearly a therapist now :)
Dear John,
I am pleased that you have found a place for your faith in Mormonism and think that faith is a deeply personal thing. In reality I think that all religions are dishonest in different ways. Add to that, that we all live in our own form of reality. Our own reality is our own story. We have to do the best we can with our narrative and live our ‘own truth’. I respect every ones decision.
Taking a utility approach, Mormonism is very useful to some people. Mormonism is an American faith and I think in lots of ways fits better with American culture. The church I feel will see much more descent in Europe. In reality, if you are going to make the compromise of validity versus utility, with your faith it is easier to be in a faith tradition that fits with your culture.
We left the church over a year ago due to historical claims but primarily because the LDS church made us miserable. It is the first time in our lives we have felt peace and our immediate family has never experience such joy and happiness having the freedom to decide what we believe. “To act and not be acted upon.” The children have really reacted well to not having tenets dictated to them. I think what is wrong from ‘our perspective’ is the ‘indoctrination’ that occurs in Mormonism. God is in our home, we still pray with the children but base everything on the teachings of Jesus Christ. We have invited our children to find their own faith and are giving them opportunity to experience different things.
We have paid an enormous price for leaving the church, we are estranged from one set of parents and have limited contact with the other. Both fathers are former stake presidents and our family cannot accept our decision. Most LDS friends also have nothing to do with us either. However, that is all of their choices. We have each other and feel a loving God in our lives ‘who, what, he, she, it, is.’ It is the price we have paid for peace and we feel we own our own thoughts now.
Thank you for all your work. It has helped us on our journey. We are really pleased that you have found a new place for you to stop and survey the new ground. God bless you in all that you do. With very best wishes, Karen
Hey John,
sounds like you’ve found happiness. I’m happy for you!
If only this oh-so-loving GA had the courage to be interviewed on Mormon Stories.
Disappointing, and I agree with Rick, the wording is troublesome “lost the Sprirt” and “prideful arrogance”, and you can justify those comments on this thread John, but doesn’t change the innuendo in the podcast. Seriously undermines all those who have found the Spirit elsewhere. And I’m willing to bet anyone here my tithing money that there’s a talk in this April’s general conference about that very topic warning us about the Internet and using John’s story of his triumphant return as an example. (Without using any names because as demonstrated in the podcast by John, that’s how the believers do it, keep it all secretive)! And I wonder if there is some prideful arrogance motivating John’s return. He’s had a personal meeting with an Aposlte, and now is in the club and we’ll see where that gets him down the road.
Danielle – You absolutely have no idea what you’re talking about. I am about as far out of “the club” as is human possible without being excommunicated. The brethren won’t even answer my emails. I am not allowed to baptize my son or even pray/talk in church. You are so, so wrong.
But I don’t take it personally (your erroneous assumptions, that is). What I hear behind what you’re saying is that you’re really in pain. And from what I know about you personally, I know that the church has interacted with your families in ways that have resulted in real harm. I get it. Believe me. Because I’ve lived it too.
Another area you are completely wrong about me is to interpret my comments about “losing the spirit” and “prideful arrogance” as directed towards people who leave the church. I was talking about me. I imagine that the church is likely full of pridefully arrogant people who are “missing the spirit.” And if you know anything about me (which you don’t seem to indicate) you’ll know that I’m a massive champion of all the goodness that exists outside of Mormonism. I personally know thousands of amazing non-Mormons. Probably more than you. And I think that I was very clear in the podcast that I do not equate leaving the church with evil things. At all. Only for me, in my situation, staying was the right thing (at least for now).
I feel badly that somehow your experience has gotten so enmeshed with my own…such that you can’t make clear distinctions between your own issues, my personal issues, and my positions. I’m sure this is partly my fault, but you may want to look inside yourself as well to see what fault may lie with you.
Again…I’ll chalk it up to your pain….which….again…if anyone can empathize with….I think that I can…since I’ve been through very painful church-related things myself.
Sincere warm regards and best wishes to you. I hope you can find peace…and I will bless your path independent of its relationship to the church. Believe me. I believe very strongly that goodness is independent of church affiliation, but that for some, church affiliation can help nurture goodness. That is all I’m saying.
Okay John. I haven’t really been following Mormon Stories for quite some time other than this podcast, so not sure why you think my experience is “enmeshed” in yours. I’m sure with a stake president like yours you’ll have a recommend in no time and be able to baptize your son and pray. I realize that your story is yours, I am not even close to the same place as you, nor was I ever. My point was just that plenty of people have the spirit without the Church and the way you said it was troubling and the Church likes to manipulate things to their advantage
Danielle — I am a totally flawed human, and I am 110% certain that I could have “messaged” things better. But in no way was I trying to infer that either: 1) leaving Mormonism means that you will become bad or evil, OR 2) that only Mormons are good people.
I was trying to communicate what happened to me, on my journey. That was all I was trying to communicate.
Of course people outside the church have “the spirit” (whatever that is). I’ve been saying that publicly for 8 years now, and that is still very much a core value/belief for me. I will never stop believing this. Ever. Nor did I mean to infer this w/ the interview.
So forgive me if I didn’t communicate as effectively as I could. That said, I believe that if you had been really listening, you would have heard me say the same thing you just did. I think I was pretty clear to say that leaving the church does not equate with evil, and I think we all know that there are plenty of lame/evil people who remain in the church….because that’s the human condition.
Danielle- Perhaps, if you have not followed MS for quite some time, you should go back and revisit many of the episodes over the last few years. As someone who has followed the podcast from the beginning, I can say that for me, John’s integrity has never been in question. Listening to this interview put all of those ‘angry’ interviews, as well as the more recent ‘hopeful’ ones into perspective.
In 100 years many of the things we accept as true in 2012 will seem laughable. And we’ll all be dead. If John has found goodness and peace in his short time on earth, who are we to criticize the means thereby?
“The rest of us get to be disfellowshipped or shunned or whatever because we don’t have the right connections, something I thought really bothered John? And how can one possibly pretend to believe it all again? Weird it’s just weird”
Danielle, “Shunned”? Really? Have you been to a council for your beliefs or non-beliefs?
“Pretend to believe it all again?” Who are you to judge that?
You’d bet your tithing money?- Mockery.
“The club”… You truly have little idea of what you say…
just saying…
This was one of the most important interviews I’ve heard in a long time. Thank you Sarah and John. Your understanding of John being in deconstruction freefall, Sarah, was a priceless bridge to understanding what he was experiencing. You both inspire me. You’re modeling a thoughtful faith along with teaching us about it. Along with the other Mormon Stories podcast offshoots A Thoughtful Faith will gladly receive my time and attention.
What a delight, John, that you’ve chosen to follow your spiritual inclinations instead of the reasoned path to priestcraft and self destruction. We are, after all, spiritual beings having a mortal experience and we sometimes lose our way despite our best intentions. I believe you’re making a difference. Because of Mormon Stories I found myself deeply disagreeing recently with Ralph Hancock’s self-confident critique of Mormon feminists, LGBQ members and intellectuals. It was so 1939 or 1990. The savior’s story and Mormon Stories has always been about us finding our way together in all our variety as best we can, not shoving those who are different to the side. Because of Mormon Stories I can say I genuinely love my gay brother and his companion. I’m more inclined to respect other human beings and even love them thanks in part to your example. I see the Master reflected in what you’re doing.
It is remarkable that everything in mortality, even the gospel of Jesus Christ, is messy and organic. We’re blessed with fallible leaders and burdened by our own weaknesses. Your inclination to destroy Mormon Stories in the event that you would have been excommunicated made me ache. What a burden you’ve born for us! An even greater burden has been born by your remarkable companion, Margi. Please share our gratitude with her. I count it an honor to have met you, Dan Wotherspoon, Joanna Brooks and Maxine Hanks at the Boise Mormon Stories Conference. I would like to meet Margi someday as well. The thought of you re-investing your heart back into your family is cause for celebration. It is holy, powerful and joyful.
Listening to part 3 I came to feel like if a person I care for very much, who has been struggling to overcome a drug-addiction for several years, was just found relapsing – with the excuse that “it feels good”. I was of the understanding (listening to him during these years) that the rationality was too obvious. I am sad that the pushers now gets his money.
Mostly I am truly concerned for the people who, looking up to him and encouraged to be their genuine self (while also struggling with addiction), now may fall back into the mental harm of their old habits.
Chris,
As all metaphors, the drug one works, but also breaks down.
What you and I both have to accept, I believe, is that the church truly blesses some people’s lives, and truly damages others. And…that leaving the church is really good for some people, and really bad for others.
I can concede both, and I believe that wise/healthy/objective people will agree with this (just my opinion).
You are talking from your experience…which I consider to be completely valid. But please don’t make the mistake of assuming that your experience is “the truth” or “what’s best” for all. That’s just near-sighted.
John,
My apologies if I came on to strong.
I feel that I, now, better expressed my thoughts in a reply to “Steve In Millcreek”…
I wish you all the best, and I am happy for the time you will spend with your family.
I am listening to the rest of the podcast now. I do feel I understand you more now John. I just wish so strongly that you hadn’t posted on online forums about the drug usage, the presence of alcohol and also the immorality you found at the Mormon Stories conferences. Then add that it was rare that these happened. Why did you even mention that? Of course the strong members of the church have grabbed right on to that and are using it to say things like, “we warn people not to leave as it leads to sinning”, or the worst, “we knew people only leave so they can live a sinful life”. I’m sure you met many more good, moral people at these conferences than immoral sinners! Am I correct? I know so many where I live who traveled to your conferences and who feel so extremely hurt that you’d do this to us. I hope you understand what I’m saying. I do wish you happiness and hope you and your family find peace.
Michelle,
I totally understand your concerns. I am a totally flawed and imperfect messenger, and I’m just doing the best that I can to tell the story that I experienced.
But I have seen a heavy dose of what I consider to be very reckless behavior in the post-Mormon world. In at least 4 or 5 cities I saw it close up. Adultery. Open marriages. Drug use. Divorce. I’m only being honest. You maybe didn’t see it, and I am not at all trying to say that these things were common w/ most conference and community participants. But they were common/frequent enough to scare the crap out of me.
And to be clear — I don’t sit in judgment over people who engage in these things. I honestly believe that everyone needs to live their life the way they feel called, and that sometimes, in some crazy way, these types of things may work for some people. I don’t judge them.
In addition, I absolutely believe that just like some people’s lives are deeply blessed by church affiliation, I know for an almost certainty that some people absolutely must leave the church to become healthy. It is totally a bi-directional, very personal decision…and that “happiness” and “wellness” exists in both directions.
But I do believe that morality (whatever it is) matters. I do believe that integrity matters. I do believe that families matter. I believe that marriages matter. That parenthood matters. That mental health matters. That adults should be responsible. I believe that anger can decay the soul if you sit in it too long. Most importantly, I believe that if I’m going to be influential in taking someone’s religion away from them, I better also be willing/able to provide a dang good replacement for what these people have lost.
And so all I’m saying is….I saw enough pain, misery, divorce, sadness, anger to last a lifetime. Close up. And I saw enough doubt, confusion, fear, “immorality” to give me pause…to ask myself, “Are people really better off by what you’re doing?” — and I couldn’t answer yes. In the end, it felt spiritually and emotionally wrong for me to keep those things up. Not to mention the fact that it all almost destroyed MY family…which it truly did.
So I’m not at all saying that all or even most ex-Mormons are immoral people. And I absolutely believe that the majority of good, ethical, moral people in the world are non-Mormon (just by sheer numbers). What I am saying is that in spite of all the good we did w/ the conferences and communities, at the end of the day I saw enough sadness, anger, immorality, pain and darkness that I did not feel good about continuing on with it. I don’t deny you of your experience, but please don’t deny me of mine.
I’ll end with this. If you know of someone, or a group of people, that are capable of creating a secular organization that blesses peoples’ lives more than Mormonism, I heartily and sincerely encourage you (and others) to build that organization. I might even donate to it. I believe that the world desperately needs an organization (or multiple organizations) to replace religion for those who are no longer affiliated (See Alain De Botton’s Atheism 2.0 for what I mean here). I so totally encourage you and others to go build that organization. Heck…I might even join it someday. All I’m saying is that I tried to create something like that, and was not successful…and instead, worry that I may have done more damage than good. But by all means…please pick up the torch/baton, carry it forward, and prove me wrong. If you can create such an organization, I will be one of your biggest fans. And I mean this sincerely.
John (and Michelle)…I’ve been out for about 15 years, and I have observed this A LOT! However, I ask you to look at it from a different angle — why is it happening?
I posit that it is not so much that the conferences create an environment that encourages these behaviors, but that what the people are healing from — in this case and many others, it is a restrictive, unhealthy culture that they are leaving, IMO — has created an expanded, pent up psyche that feels the need to let go and deflate for a time. Some call it a pendulum that swings an equal amount the other way for a while. Hopefully, and most of the time, it comes back to center and nobody is hurt seriously. But sometimes people DO get hurt…and my question is, whose fault is it really? Should you the meeting organizer feel responsible for adults’ behaviors? Wouldn’t these sorts of things happen in other settings anyway?
My point is, I don’t think YOU have as much power over people to make them do “bad” things as you might assume. That is their own doing, probably as a result of a lifetime of living outside of integrity and needing a release to get back to center.
Another point that is hard to hear is that the pain they go through is a part of their healing. Hopefully without serious consequences, but painful enough for them to learn important life lessons. I did it. Addiction, divorce, bankruptcy, excommunication, criminal conviction, lost medical license for a time. Hurt like hell. But I’m better for it today.
Rick – I totally get that I’m not fully responsible (or even predominately responsible…or maybe even responsible at all) for other people’s decisions.
But now that I’ve been in a place of a tiny bit of influence, I do believe that I have had at least a little bit of influence on at least a few people (and it has humbled me to the core from what I’ve seen).
So I will accept your point, but ask you to consider mine — which is that sometimes people really can be influenced for good or for evil by others…and if I’m going to ever have influence again, I need to “wield” it from a more centered place of wisdom/love/kindess/patience/humility (dare I say Christlike attributes) — and less from a place of anger, frustration, hurt, pride, and in some cases righteous indignation (which at times has probably seeped into my work over the past 8 years more than I was aware).
Yes John, it’s always best to come from a place of love, and only you know where that is for you. And I don’t doubt in the least your influence on others. I’ve been amazed at the number of people you have following your work. It was/is needed in Mormon culture. And again, I absolutely see the need for you to pull back and focus on personal/family health. I applaud you for taking such a positive step.
As one that has been outside religion for a long time, I’ve had time to observe the (sorry for the negative term here) indoctrination techniques inherent in the culture. Most don’t recognize them while in it. Terms like “sin, wickedness, the spirit, righteousness, humility, prideful arrogance, etc.” all paint a divisive picture of good and bad according to one’s view of life, usually handed down from the traditions of fathers immersed in dogmatic religions. It creates painful emotions that trap people in a faith that discourages open and explorative learning.
There is also a dramatic codependency in religious cultures that masquerade as love. “Help your neighbor” often leads to unhealthy control and life-meddling that keeps one from personal growth and creativity that could lead one away from the cultural status quo — dangerous to homogeneity.
In secular humanism, we have a simple life compass: each lives life to the fullest without hurting others. This principle encourages true and healthy morality. I believe a component of real love is that each person is responsible for their own happiness, and helping others is a natural desire, as long as it is welcomed by the receiving party. The path to this place is often painful, but seems to be common. Unfortunately.
I continue to be optimistic that religions will evolve to this paradigm. Love requires it, and the goodness in each of us will ensure that it happens. YOU are a powerful tool in this process, wherever you go. Thanks for your diligence always!
I think you are hitting on something important!!!
Where I as a convert come from you can have a (one) cold beer on a warm day, because it is a great thirst clencher, or a (one) glass of wine with weekend-dinner, in a calm family setting.
In comparison, when I came to Utah people I met drank to get plastered! Taste and finesse did not exist. You drank until you puked and lost your memory! Wasn’t that the purpose of alcohol?
Some of my Utah-LDS friends seems to believe that if they do not obey the church, to the teeth, they would end up in the gutter. I have tried to, but I can not, relate to that mindset.
I think many people (in Utah, born into the church,) “misbehave” when they leave the church due to their Utah-LDS cultural references. What they know is a culture of black or white, all or nothing, you are in or out, with us or against us.
Many people who, in one way or another, fall into the vast grey-zone do not fit into any extreme. Confusion is born! (Which is strange, thinking about a Bell-curve of normal distribution.)
99% is not good enough, so Utahns consumed the most antidepressants in the nation. And if you have fallen THAT far why not fall further(?), so Utahns had the highest porn subscription rate in the nation. This is not the church’s fault. It is the fault of individuals without “normal” [Bell-curved] points of reference.
It’s easy to be viewed as an apostasy just by quoting Brigham Young in 2013… It’s a fine line to walk.
Excellent response, John. I’ve still not been able to listen but I get what you’re saying here. And it helps a whole lot. Thanks.
John, what do you think is the source of all of this pain, misery, divorce, sadness and anger?
Seasickyetstilldocked – My answer would be “the human condition.” I completely reject the notion that the church (broadly speaking) is the one true source of pain and suffering in humanity. Does it contribute to pain and sadness? Yes. But it also can help to alleviate pain and sadness — for literally billions of people.
It’s my view that religion is more cure than disease, in spite of its weaknesses.
My comment to secularists is…if you hate religion…create something better that provides as much or more than religion does for mankind. If someone can figure out that recipe, they will truly be rich…and I’ll be their biggest fan. But take it from me. It’s really, really hard to organize secularists into anything meaningful. In my view, the man (or woman) who figures this formula out deserves 33 wives (or husbands). I say this in jest…but only slightly.
But to me, this is the great adventure of the 21st century. See Alain de Botton’s “Atheism 2.0” for more of what I mean.
https://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html
Until humanity can figure something better out, I’m committed to working (at least partly) within religious structures to achieve advancements in human enlightenment.
John- you said, “I completely reject the notion that the church (broadly speaking) is the one true source of pain and suffering in humanity.” As you know, I was not broadly speaking of religion but instead speaking of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The LDS Church does not put people first. This organization unapologetically inculcates into their members that they are the one true church on the face of the planet with exclusive authority to act in the name of God. This church demands that their members sustain a man as a honest to goodness prophet, seer and revelator.
This church requires their members to then specifically live a life narrative that they have meticulously laid out under the full weight of self appointed authority from God. There are no avenues for members to question the specific narrative or the authority from which it is directed and those members that do question or doubt are subjected to the kind of pain, misery, divorce, sadness and anger that you have spent years trying to mitigate. Our gay brothers and sisters are killing themselves while the LDS Church create websites and plays words games that protect their interests first. Is there no balm in Gilead? Surely, the Savior of the world would not behave in such a Machiavellian manner.
Religion may very well not be an enemy of society but certainly the LDS Church is an enemy to religion. One needs to only look at the human detritus left in its wake.
Oh, I forgot rule number 1. It is always the members fault. My bad. Wow, Phillip, you give great advice. I will use “stupid people making selfish choices” the next time I talk to lds members who:
have a wife who wants to leave them because they don’t believe the BofM is true
have a gay child who has been kicked out of the house
have a son who wants to go to MIT right out of high school instead of serving a mission
The list is endless. The church is directly responsible for creating massive life crisis out of otherwise normal life experiences and changes. The church is also responsible for making these problems particularly unsolvable because members testimonies are tied to the one true church paradigm and everything that goes with it. Spouses and families end up working against each other instead of for each other when the church narrative is violated in any way.
You just hit the quintessential core of it all, the REASON why we were willing to participate in “building a community for Mormons like [us]”!
And you are all heroes for building such a community. Your community puts people first and church second while the church puts the church first and people second. This is the tension and it is worth the fight. You can’t blame John for getting tired after all these years. Maybe after a few years of going to parties where grown adults are playing Phase 10 and Settlers of Catan while drinking root beer floats will recharge his batteries a little. I can’t decide which is more unsettling, adults getting together and smoking pot or adults getting together and playing Phase 10.
John is a good guy. There is much about him that I personally did not trust but I always believed him when he said he just wanted to alleviate pain in people lives. The whole point of how the LDS Church runs is to create pain in the lives of those who do not obey. This is how religions like the Church protect themselves and survive. The Ralph Hancock interview is all you really need to get a good feel for what I am talking about.
“Maybe after a few years of going to parties where grown adults are playing Phase 10 and Settlers of Catan while drinking root beer floats will recharge his batteries a little. I can’t decide which is more unsettling, adults getting together and smoking pot or adults getting together and playing Phase 10.”
Too many comments to read them all, but I am so glad that I scrolled down to the bottom and caught this gem. Haven’t laughed that hard in a while. Thanks, seasick!
Seasick…
You are correct. Please do use my reasoning. In the cases you mentioned the LDS members you refer to would fit the description of the “silly people”. This whole idea of us vs. them is so counterproductive to me. We are all flawed and capable of being mean spirited and selfish.
I did not say disaffected members were any more inclined to be selfish and stupid than active members. I just feel the anger and resentment that seems to be carried for so long by so many is a shame. I am glad John has found a place of peace – I would be just as glad for him if it was not within the LDS faith, but I DO NOT judge him because it is.
I see your point, Seasickyetstilldocked. As active LDS, I wish other LDS would not abandon spouse or child when their life model of perfection is disrupted in the ways your cited. If the Church set the stage for that outcome, the Church should work to counter it.
John, you say you weren’t successful, and maybe you weren’t in that the communities didn’t become a complete replacement for all the church does. But you were successful in so many ways. Because of Mormon Stories, I had a support structure in place before I even totally hit my “crisis” points. I had already connected with people online and in real life who were going through it and could understand me. Because of Mormon Stories, I have made some of the dearest friends of my entire life. Truly. My life is richer, more fun-filled, and more authentic. I have a group of female friends that are more like a real Relief Society than I ever experienced in church. My kids have friends. I have amazing book group discussions and uplifting lunch get togethers. Our SLC group has been relatively drama free and it has facilitated not only friendships but also amazing service to our community. I am so amazed by what the members of our group do for the homeless population especially here in SLC. It is inspiring. So while sure there are may be many post-mormons who go a little crazy in reaction to leaving the church, and I know you had to put out a lot of fires in some of the groups, I don’t want you to see this effort as a failure. It was not. Not for me. And not for thousands of others either. I hope you don’t let the bit of bad that occurred overshadow all the immense good.
John,
“Wife swapping. Open marriages. Drug use. Adultery. Divorce. Sadness. Anger” Those are things that bishops deal with routinely with “faithful members.” It saddens me that you took the illicit behavior of a few as a reflection of the work you were doing. The aftermath of Mormonism is the aftermath of Mormonism and with or without you those same behaviors will continue. The difference is that all of the positive work you did in those communities will be lost. You have successfully thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
Michelle, I did not attend your city’s MS Conference, so I have no direct info, but I accept your explanation, above. If any drug use occurred, it was probably by 1%. One of the logical fallacies is “Guilt By Association”; it is unfair to assassinate the character of The Many based on the behavior of The One, even if that one (or that few) is/are member(s) of the group.
Forgive John if he misspoke. During a long conversation, all of us periodically advance hearsay as factual or speak out of line. Perhaps post-op will edit more tightly next time; but then, give room for post-op to error too.
Michelle, cheers to you and yours.
John,
I’ve been a closet listener to Mormon Stories since 2007. However, I’ve always been on the believing side of the spectrum, and (perhaps wrongly) have never had the grit or drive, you could say, to engage in online debate. But, though I run the risk of being one of those “thanking John Dehlin”, I nonetheless owe you (though I ache to hear that so much of this came at a great personal cost to you and your family) a sincere “thank you” for the work that you have done. Though I’ve thoroughly enjoyed most podcasts, there have been a couple in particular that have deeply affected my life, marriage and overall perspective. Thank you and thank you again.
And John, it was wonderful to hear your your powerful and moving story, and to listen to your uncanny degree of openness and transparency. I admire that you (with the help of your wife, stake president and God (however you want to define Him)) pulled yourself out of your deconstructive free-fall and landed yourself on a better course for your own life and the life of your family.
I like how you talked about having to make a choice at some point on our faith journey; not spending forever in the purgatory of indecision. But marking out a course, in some direction, and following it. I too, probably in a different way, have spent years in a state of intellectual angst, wondering what path to choose and often getting more angry and frustrated in the process. That has subsided some in recent months, and though not at ease with a great deal in church culture and practice, I think that I, too, have made my decision to cast my lot with the Saints and give it my best.
John, best of wishes again to you, whatever the future brings. If you do continue Mormon Stories, I’ve got to say that I love the number of thoughtful believers that you’ve brought on the show, and would love to see that continue (though I guess that is what “A Thoughtful Faith” is supposed to be doing now!) Either way, I look forward to seeing what happens in the future.
Michael Taylor
Thank you so much, Michael. Truly.
I haven’t finished all of Sarah’s interview with you, but I felt compelled to write you a quick note to let you know how much I admire your bravery through this journey. You have (inadvertently) emulated a mythos within Mormonism: the struggle, death, and resurrection. This mythos I think is best illustrated with the Old Testament story of Jacob wrestling with the angel. They wrestled through an entire night and into early morning. I like this image for two reasons: A) I think it perfectly embodies the process of the faith crisis and the “dark night of the soul,” and B) There was light which followed that darkness and conflict. Jacob’s world became illuminated once again. When day broke, the angel submitted to Jacob. He gave him a new name: Israel. This name is significant, as it means “he who contends with God.” It also has the dual meaning, “he who perseveres with God.”
We often talk about Israel as a destination or a people. But perhaps it is more than that. Perhaps Israel is a conflict. A journey through that dark night, and the emergence (or resurrection) from it. In ancient Egyptian religion, you have passed through the twelve trials of the underworld and have emerged with the morning son (“Rah”) which sustains life.
THAT is awesome.
John, I hope you thought so too. Remember that you are on your own journey and resist the rush to judgment, even on your own efforts and work.
The work of Mormon Stories is to provide people, faithful, struggling, doubting, questioning, hurt, confused etc. a forum where they can speak and be accepted without worry of judgment or condemnation.
In my opinion you have provided that. The power of Story is crucial and stories need to be told. If all you do is provide a place where stories can be told in an atmosphere of love and tolerance, then you have done something truly remarkable. Please keep up the story!
I just finished listening to Part 3. I am feeling extremely uplifted. I am energized by your beautiful desire to be more invested in your family and in yourself. You do not owe it to any of us to be our crutch. You have helped so many, but essentially it is up to each and every individual to make some decisions based on their unique needs and pick ourselves up and do what will allow the most healing and peace. I believe that simplifying is often a rewarding thing that far too many ignore. I felt a tremendous amount of wisdom reflected in your words. I think your heart,mind and spirit are in a good place. May all of us succeed in finding the peace and joy that comes to each person differently, but is so much worth the pursuit. I feel more committed now to let go of the anger that is threatening to swallow me up and move on.
John,
I’ve been a closet listener as well, more prone to talking things out at home and not in a public forum, but I have always been so grateful for those who are willing to speak their stories out loud. I recently listened to a podcast with Brene Brown on vulnerability, and wow, you and your family, have opened yourselves up to the unknown in so many ways. What a heavy weight when you become a voice for people who all have their own journeys. I think, even with your struggles and maybe because of them, that your compassion and desire to really hear and accept people has always shone through and been a great example. I’m very happy that you feel more peace lately and are letting go of the pressure to be everything for everyone.
For me, listening to Mormon Stories and Mormon matters has helped me become a more tolerant, loving person, and I am very grateful for that. Thank you! You and Margi will continue to have a beautiful capacity to help nurture love in your future work.
John
I’m busy and don’t have time to keep checking all the threads etc. As I said on my response, I haven’t been involved much for the past few months in any of the podcasts, blogs, etc. And your experience is not at all relevant or “emmeshed” in mine in any way. I still attend church, have a recommend, etc. My husband and I have said all along that what you did with the podcast and conferences and research were always about you. Clearly you were looking for answers/support, etc. and found a place to get that while navigating. My concern is really for all those people who followed your podcasts, lost testimony, family members, destroyed marriages, lost friends and don’t get to meet with Apostles to have their questions answered satisfactorily. Or don’t have a support system like you have. My Stake President would excommunicate me if I talked to him the way you talked to yours. (and others have had that happen) You have carved out a unique place for yourself where you’re allowed to say and think what you want and are protected because of your connections and/or status. And good for you, you’ve invested a lot of time creating that space! :)
My other concern is the way the Church manipulates these stories. I completely get that what you said about “losing the spirit” on this recent podcast series is “your story”, and we are all independent of you. I get it, the Church won’t ever get it. They will continue to use stories like yours to manipulate their efforts, and the comments about “losing the Spirit” are exactly what fits into their picture of everyone who leaves/questions. I know that’s not true and you do too, but they will never see it that way and I felt the comment undermined everyone who has found a happier place and plenty of the spirit in other places. And the Church will use that picture to discredit any of the problems or inconsistency with the history to say you (or people like you, without the spirit), are flawed, not the history is flawed.
I’m glad you’re happy now
Wow, thank you so much John for sharing your story with us. I have been a long time listener– your podcasts have helped me feel normal through my stages of faith crisis and I’ve always had a deep yearning to end up where you are now and where Dan Wotherspoon is… I think I’m getting there :) Thank you for your interviews with your amazing guests which have opened my eyes to so many issues and helped me work through them, they helped me to grow a lot. I wish you and your family the best!
“People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they’re not on your road doesn’t mean they’ve gotten lost.”
JD… I have followed you for many years now. Your journey, and your voice, have been helpful to me in my own journey. For that I say thanks.
But, our roads seem to have diverged. So I wish you happiness on yours and bid you farewell.
Hey John! I just now finished listening to all parts. First, let me say thank you and I hope you and your family are happier now.
Could you please clarify or address what I hope is a misunderstanding that you feel your Mormon Stories groups were filled with those desiring to be immoral or sin? I’m sure you did not mean that but many (if you read online posts on the forums) seem crushed and devastated that you’ve mistakenly given that impression.
I totally get that being out of the church community became a dark place for you and you wanted to return. But there are just as many who find being in the church to be a very dark place and that they need to disassociate. And, not to drink, do drugs or sin.
Thanks for all you have done, John. I sincerely believe you were thinking of others and had righteous intentions through all your ups, downs, ins and outs. What a journey for you!
It is either true or not. Fantasy or reality. I know which one you picked.
I have listened to nearly every hour of MS. I have been moved & challenged spiritually and intellectually. I have been uplifted and gobsmacked. Sometimes listening is a bit like watching the aftermath of a gruesome accident. I have not had my family torn apart or been ostracised at Church, but can empathize with all of John’s interviewees–even apologists, who I did not expect to stomach. I am grateful to John and the others who contribute! As much as I appreciate all that John has done to make this possible–assembling the Ted Lyons, Richard Bushmans, Greg Princes, Teryl Givenses, Eldon Kartchners, Phil Barlows, Carol Lynn Pearsons, McKlays of Mormondon–I wish John could walk away. Get out of the spotlight, focus on your family, your education and career and let the mormon community fill the void. Come back in five years when your professional practice is thriving and you’ve had time to be who you are and practice what you believe away from the microscope. I have to pull myself away from your podcasts at times becasue I become so invested. They are awesome, but we all need to work out our own belief/lack of belief on our own at some point. You have been a model of integrity, curiosity and compassion to me and thousands of others. Thank you! Now, go take care of your family and yourself and sort things out with those closest to you–fewer than 150 people hopefully. Respectfully, Jonathan P
John,
Wow. I heard so much courage and integrity and strength in this interview from you. I think it is great that you are sharing this with others – especially at the risk of comments like a lot of these or loss of funding. The last part was particularly poignant to me – centering yourself and then your life on your most important relationships and integrating your intellect, emotions, and spirituality. Amen. Thank you for your honesty.
John,
THANK YOU for the work you have done! Mormon Stories has helped me sort through things as I have been going through my faith crisis and picking up the broken pieces of my faith since 2007.
I have appreciated the insight of those who are faithful intellectuals (Bushman, Givens, Witherspoon, et al) that have discovered all the warts, understand the culture, yet chose to remain faithful and active. They found a way to wrap their head around everything so that they can be honest with themselves in their faithfulness and church activity.
I am wondering if there are many Mormon Stories interviews of people who have decided to leave the church yet are living very happy, joyful, and peaceful lives. I would be interested to hear their journey out of the church and into their new lives. I know that the McClays were interviewed, but they were
ex-Mormon greenies. I would like to hear from seasoned, level-headed, and kind-spirited ex-Mormons like Karen who commented (Jan. 28, 2013 11:59 p.m.).
Although I have been sorting through things since 2007, I only recently came across Mormon Stories in 2012. I haven’t listened to all the episodes. So, I don’t know if there are many interviews of those seasoned ex-Mormons.
Again, thank you for the work you have done on Mormon Stories. I really think that once you earn your PhD that you will definitely be able to find a therapy niche with people in all faiths going through faith crisises. Best of luck!
Justin – I would be happy to share my story if it would help anyone. It has been one incredible journey, with great joy and great pain. But I can say that I have experienced peace for the first time in my life, like no other finding a way to choose gratitude over anger. All the very best in your journey, my vision is that one day the LDS church will be a safe place for me to just pop into and meet with old friends, focusing on our love for each other as human beings rather than the fact we have differing ideology. I dearly miss my community, but I have hope, the race is not finished. The Mormon people are good people, things can change and John Dehlin, I salute you for the work you have done in this area. Very best to all.
Hi John,
I’ve been a big fan of yours for many years since I discovered your first few interview podcasts. This has continued to be true through your changing faith. While you see yourself as bearer of the “Ring”, I have more often seen you as a “Seeker”. And over all of your work, I have admired your authenticity and honesty as you shared your own mental, spiritual, and emotional paradigm shifts and pendulum swings because I think that’s what all true Seekers do. (I use a capital letter on Seekers deliberately because I believe it is a calling.)
I know the calling of Seeker has been hard on you and your family. Please know that your work (and your wife’s wisdom and patience) has been appreciated by the quiet many, like me. My years as Seeker were painful and destructive until your work taught me a better way to share how I was changing.
I listened to all three hours of your final podcast, and was saddened by only one thing. I cried when I heard you express the desire that those who have left the Church, but cannot leave the Church behind, just move on. This may have come from my own bias, but that was honestly the first time I have heard you say something that did not *sound* sincere to me.
The Church is such a part of our psyche, our sense of what a family is, and our personal stories that even a Seeker as fair and honest as you are could not leave it behind when faced with not being able to baptize your son. Instead, you had to again embrace it on their terms. I was not able to do that, even as I sobbed in the Temple waiting room when my children were married without me being there.
After many years of Seeking, I can neither leave Mormonism nor find spirituality or community within the conventional Mormon Church. I am at peace that God, if She or He exists, knows that. I choose not to give up my personal history, my right to call myself Mormon, my ethnicity, or my intricate web of beliefs built on Mormonism (yet not quite authenticated by the Patriarchal authority). To do that would be to give up part of me and leave a huge empty hole. Why would that be healthy?
Does that make me angry and prideful as judged by Church members? I have sincerely searched my soul and don’t believe that is true. I was full of both pride and anger as an active Mormon. That pride was blown away when I walked out into the world and saw it as the harsh place that it is. The anger at the Church was eventually extinguished as I replaced it with a new spiritual awakening that took years of hard work.
I am so happy that you have found the peace you have been seeking. As for me, go back to black or white, no colors in between? How will we ever paint a more beautiful painting?
your friend always,
Peggy
I love this response, Peggy. As I’ve moved away from religion altogether, and really feel no void anymore, there is still a little “mormon” in me as it was my culture in my formative years. Of course living in Utah we can never really leave it as it influences everything and everybody around me.
But I’ve come to view “all things mormon” as an observer that probably understands it more than those that have never been in the church. I view it today as an institution I have graduated from — I enjoyed my time there and may cheer for the sports teams, but feel no compulsion to return.
I think that now, after a long road, John may have finally found the “middle way”, and I’m super grateful for it. I’m so non-spiritual that I have a hard time finding resonance with John’s beliefs, but the way that he’s been able to synthesize them with his intellectual hang-ups is exactly what I’ve been missing.
Thanks for your work John, it sounds like you’ve made the right choice for you and I think you’ve helped me see more of what the right choice (or at least the right direction) might be for me.
John, can you please write in ALL CAPS every once in a while, so we can SEE HOW YOU REALLY FEEL. it is very helpful . THANK YOU
Big Letter,
Good point. :) I went back and edited. Thx. for the feedback.
John,
I’ve only made it half way through the three podcasts. But, I want to quickly add my voice of thankfulness for your courage and fearlessness to open your personal story to so many. I wondered, as have others in these comments, about questions I would have asked to an apostle. All of the questions/issues boil down to whether God/Jesus still talks to this church? Did you receive any insight in this regard from church leaders you spoke to?
Glen – I totally believe that these men sincerely believe that they are being led by God. And I also believe that they are as capable of receiving inspiration as you and I are…..and can also be as equally fallible in their interpretations.
I guess I believe that we all see through a glass darkly….but that there is light available…and that they can often get it right, as can I…and that all of us can also get it totally wrong.
It’s a journey/process…for them, and for us.
John,
It’s interesting to me that so many of your listeners want your journey and your conclusions to match their own. So if they have left the church than you should leave the church. And if they found their faith again than so should you. It’s as though your conclusions can only be the “correct” ones if you confirm their life choices. It’s making me reflect on how I view others choices who don’t follow my path. I could be more humble in that regard.
Keep staying true to yourself John and your own personal experiences. In the end, personal experiences are one of the few things that we really know are true.
Michael, I love this observation! I find it true of myself, and it seems that many other commentators are either irked or comforted with John’s different faith states, depending on their own biases. It’s hard being completely objective and affirming of others’ paths, especially someone like JD, with whom many of us identify, but for different reasons. You give me good thoughts to mull over…
I don’t think people are frusterated that John has returned to full activity. Rather, I think people are frusterated because we feel like we have lost our voice. John is one of the few people that represented us (our voice) to the LDS Church higher-ups.
There are some of us that no longer believe in the truth claims. We don’t feel comfortable in The Church because of our morals or personal integrety. Aggitating for change is not a bad thing, is it?
One of our key voices was silenced.g for change is not a bad thing, is it?
One of our key voices was silenced.als or integrety. Aggitating for change is not a bad thing, is it?
One of our key voices was silenced.
Joe – I’m not sure why you feel like I’ve been silenced. I certainly don’t feel that way. I feel free to say and do whatever I feel is best…and the current plan is to keep on doing so.
So I guess I don’t understand why you feel like I’ve been silenced, when I don’t feel that way at all.
Hi John,
I’ve been on a faith journey also for many years. Early to mid nineties. I feel for you and the pain, the indecision, the family issues, the God issues, the Brethren issues, the Joseph issues, the Science issues, and so on. I value where you’ve come to at this point in time. I too have had to question off and on over the years whether integrity would let me remain active in the church. Over time I’ve been able to come to a place where I am comfortable with my faith and testimony, being what it is. There seems to be a special light or feeling that is difficult to describe when one chooses to have a particle/degree of faith in the restoration story and remain within the tent, even when questioning or doubting at times. Over the years I think I’ve listened to just about every one of your podcasts and have valued that resource as I’ve made what may be a similar journey. I too choose to remain active and find that I can do so with a smile on my face and a song in my heart as I choose to live the gospel as practiced in the LDS church. Best wishes to you and your family as you return to full activity in the church!
John,
I’ve been a big fan of yours for a while. The part that I had a hard time listening to was when you spoke of these meetings with anonymous GAs. It sounds like they represented themselves and the church well. Why would there be a need for secrecy unless they did or said something in appropriate? I can’t imagine that is the case, but the fact that you didn’t disclose their names, or reveal why you didn’t disclose their names, was a little unsettling.
JR, consider the possibility that letting the General Authority retain anonymity could be a good thing for everyone. Give the GA some space to retain intact his life, (..his family, his community,..) while he works out details on John’s topics. (Remember: the GA’s only one man and the Church is a big ship; redirecting it is titanic.) If he feels threatened, he may understandably recoil.
An anonymous GA may not be a decision maker but he can be an advocate and messenger to those above him. If anonymity is important to him to advocate well, let’s provide it.
It bothered me for two reasons. First, I felt like the apostle deserved credit for being open, kind and loving to John and I’d like to know which apostle I should essentially like a little more than I did previously.
Second, I just don’t think an apostle would meet with John in the JSM hoping to keep a meeting secret. I don’t think an apostle would tell someone that they can divulge what they talked about, just not whom they talked to. I don’t think an apostle would say anything that an apostle shouldn’t to someone he doesn’t even know, especially not to someone who does what John does. Why would he trust John to keep his identity a secret? But if that’s what he asked John to do, then fine but why not just state that this is why he won’t name the apostle?
Because I don’t believe that an apostle asked John to keep his identity a secret I can only wonder why John would do so. It’s not a big deal either way, I just wish John could clarify why he won’t name him.
Hmmmm, I am torn. I’m not going to lie, I hoped this would end differently. However, we are each on our own path, and to be at peace we must behave in harmony with our wiring. You seem to be on a path that certainly is the future of the church, if the church is to survive. For me, I don’t care if the church survives if it’s claims are not true. You seem to get nurturing and spiritual sustenance from your participation in the church. You seem to be invested in sustaining the framework of that nurturing. I simply went to other sources to feed me, sources that don’t require me to believe in or avert my eyes to things that are not true.
Again, we are all wired differently, and I wish you the very best. The work you have done lives on, and will continue to help people identify and walk their path, regardless of which path you are on.
The King is dead! Long live the King!
John,
I was very touched by your honesty in this interview. I sense such a weight has been lifted from your shoulders and I am so pleased to hear of the successes you have had in your home. I do feel now that the spiritual side of our lives must not be abandoned. I have also found myself returning to my spirituality and religion and my family life has been healed in many respects as a result.
I don’t really have the words to put to my beliefs but I have encountered this spiritual energy again that seems to edify and inspire. I am comfortable using the LDS language to interpret these feelings even though I also recognize the intellectual conflicts that don’t seem like they can be resolved. There are many lessons layered within your experience. Obviously you are the primary beneficiary but your journey has helped make many things clear for me as well.
I’m glad you know that you would make a crappy prophet. Even so I cannot help but like you man. Thank y– Damn it! Just let me say it one more time (I trust you not to get a big head). Thank you for having the heart to go on your journey. Thank you for being mindful of the suffering of others. I wish you the best dude!
Thank you so much, John for all of your work with MormonStories! The podcasts were part of my spiritual journey and I don’t think that I would’ve come through as well as I did without them. It did make me feel a bit selfish to know that your dear wife and children had been the cost. Please express my appreciation to them with a hug!
Your closing words in part 3 brought tears to my eyes – it felt as though I was being released from all the pain, confusion and sadness. It was my goodbye to the old me, the one who used to believe and then questioned everything. And hearing you vocalize “the new you” I knew that I too was ready to walk away and start my life as a new me.
Although I have chosen to leave the Church, I respect your decision to stay and fight the good fight. It makes me feel hopeful for the future of the LDS faith to know that people such as yourself are helping to direct where it goes.
Please don’t internalize the negative comments. Each of us has to choose the best path for ourselves. Those of us who leave need to extend respect for those who stay, just as we want the reverse.
Best wishes to you and your family. It seems appropriate to write, “go with God” even without understanding exactly what that means. And thank you again for your work,
Pursue the path that leads you to happiness my friend!
You say the hill’s too steep to climb
Climb it.
You say you’d like to see me try
Climbing.
You pick the place and I’ll choose the time
And I’ll climb
That hill in my own way.
Just wait a while for the right day.
And as I rise above the tree lines and the clouds
I look down, hearing the sound of the things you’ve said today.
Fearlessly the idiot faced the crowd
Smiling.
Merciless the magistrate turns ’round
Frowning.
And who’s the fool who wears the crown?
And go down,
In your own way
And every day is the right day
And as you rise above the fear-lines in his brow
You look down, hearing the sound of the faces in the crowd.
Remember, don’t do Mormon Stories for the money, do it only if you sincerely love doing it.
John,
Thank you so much for always allowing yourself to be vulnerable and open about your faith journey. This episode was so powerful to me, particularly because I have such a great amount of respect for you, and feel that you have been such a powerful example in my life. I feel that this is not only because of where you are currently at, but in general I feel your integrity has always been, throughout the years I have known of you, something incredible. I have always felt so much sincerity and love from you, even though I have only met you a few times, and those were like 2 minute conversations. It has to be so hard being so much in the public eye, and having people use you as a model of how to live. I remember when you did your interview with the Larsens. I had a friend come up to me and say “Have you heard that John Dehlin no longer supports people staying in the church?” (This was obviously a mischaracterization of what you had been saying and doing). He said this knowing that my membership and faith had been saved by you and your podcasts. I am one who has had an incredible life in Mormonism and absolutely loved it and it was through you (perhaps because I believe your podcasts started me on my journey) that I was able to salvage those things that I love so dearly. I did begin to recognize that your tone did change, but my appreciation for what you continued to do did not lesson. I began to disagree with you more often, but continued listening and continued to value the stories that were brought into my life. I admit that I am glad to see that your path is coming closer to where I personally am, but I want to say to those who disagree with where you are at, This is John’s journey, and just because he is not where you are anymore does not mean that he is no longer worth listening to. I have learned so much about empathy and love for those who are different from me and I feel that John can take a lot of credit, and this was during what John seems to consider his darker years.(John, I know you don’t want this type of praise, but I feel you really deserve it.) There is still so much more for us all to learn, so please stop acting so offended and just be nice. Anyways Thank you again John for everything you have done.
P.s. I am so proud of your Stake president. I remember the fear I felt for you when he first called you in, and I am so grateful he has been so willing to try and help. This episode was so powerful to me.
I often meditate on the fine line that separates vulnerability from narcissism, and hope I am doing more of the former and less of the latter. The absolute openness and vulnerability that you expressed in the interview was touching and exemplary of what appears to be a life finally lived out in the open untainted by that narcissism that can lead us to feel sometimes like victims, other times like heros and on special occasions like gods.
Well done!
John, you are entitled to be a listener in your own podcasts and make the decisions we all are entitled to make without being made to feel guilty. People who are upset with you never learned what was presented before them. Too many just made you their prophet and a substitution for Joseph Smith or President Monson. I wish you the best.
Hey John,
You are one funny guy! Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you end up getting pretty much what you wanted from the start…a local leader to acknowledge your concerns and empathize with you instead of excommunicating you? All you had to do was start a reformed Mormon religious movement to get it!
It occurred to me that maybe a lot of people who were following your story closely felt betrayed because they had invested time, emotion, and maybe money into your foundation thinking that you could represent them all and now you’ve said that actually this is just about your individual journey. I can see how you would need to do what you feel is right for yourself, but I can also see how they might feel betrayed and like there was some kind of bait-and-switch.
That said, I think you’ve probably accomplished a lot more than people give you credit for! A few years ago, I’d think the default was that someone who did even half of what you’ve done would have been excommunicated for sure. Just maybe you’ve created a little more space for others who feel trapped within the Church to live according to their consciences, whether in or out of the Church. Good work!
Two other thoughts. One is that I thought it was hilarious that you thought marijuana was so scary. Were you just trying to burnish your Mormon cred? The other is that I thought it might be fun to hear some podcasts from you on secular/humanist “religions” since they seem to have been an interest of yours. Maybe do a series on the options out there!
Keep it up and stay true to yourself, your family, and the quest for truth and right!
Funny how so many of you confused, angry, people feel betrayed by John. Get a life! So, you would look to John to justify your negative feelings about the church? Like John said, get a life! Seriously, what a waste of time. I, like almost most Mormons, have huge questions…but the fact remains, the feelings of love, community, spirituality is most important to me. Don’t worry, you can still mock others for being “sheep” while you feel intellectually superior since you are a “thinking Mormon”, as opposed to the non-thinking members!
You have my support and best wishes, John. My poetic sentiments just for you:
FOREVER JOHN DEHLIN
Like I am what I am
So I is what I is
And I ain’t no isser
Nothing lesser, nothing greater
Nothing dumber, nothing wiser
A proportionate no thing
In the scheme of every thing
Like you like me
We all come to see
Our journey begun
The same one
Always the same one
John,
I cannot believe that you have allowed yourself to be manipulated in this manner by the LDS church leadership and especially with all the harm that it inflicts upon individuals and families. The numerous reasons you left full activity are the very same and current reasons you have now felt obliged to return to. Nothing regarding church doctrine or culture has changed worthy of any serious consideration. The church periodically and conveniently move the goalposts ever so slightly to accommodate their continuing current existence and the perpetuation of their prejudices.
They obviously want someone like yourself of calibre, influence, wealth, ., etc, inside their ultra controlled LDS box than outside, where you have been giving people so much hope and necessary help to people, especially those who are suffering and some at breaking point.
I know your family is very important to you, but it is within this fragile group that the church plays out all of its disturbing and psychological mindgames with its members.
I wish you and your loved ones well in the future and hope that you can continue reaching out to people who desperately need a listening ear and indeed voice to relate their heartfelt and sincere concerns. I hope that this can be continued and accomplished without the constant all watching eye and control of the powerful LDS church and its fundamentalist and oft times intolerant leaders and followers.
Just because you find yourself on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to being active or not doesn’t warrant criticism simply because you’re not on the same side of the fence as John. It’s just as “right” to end up on the side that John is on. Many of us have ended up after years of questioning/doubt remaining in full activity within the church while keeping a sense of integrity and “rightness”. Don’t fault us for that!
this is for you John. You’ve arrived where this guy is pointing to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji3a31BBFUQ
John,
I have listened to a number of your podcasts and appreciate your efforts. I made the decision a number of years ago that the church was not for me and together with my family chose to leave.
Your decision to stay I think just confirms that people can look at much the same set of facts and even agree to a large extent on what those facts are and still act on them in very different ways. This is where the spiritual/emotional part of the equation comes in.
In the end I think we all seek peace of mind/spirit. We want to do the right thing for ourselves and our families. It seems that after years of struggle that you may have achieved some of that peace. Your conclusion is a fifferent one than mine but I respect it and in the end I think that was a large part of what Mormon Stories is/was all about. I was able to share your podcasts with others who did not understand the path I took; not to convence them I was right but to help them understand how I ended up where I was.
Some have expressed the fear that the church is using you, that you are now a prominant example of “the bitter Fruits Of Apostacy”. That fear may be justified just as some feared your podcasts would lead many to leave the church. however in the end I think hoesty trumps all that. I appreciate you sharing the truth of your journey even if it is uncomfortable for some.
Best wishes.
John, It’s odd to me that you would lose support on your podcast. Everything you’ve done here seems really authentic, thorough and deep. It’s an important experience to be exposed to another’s point of view, whether or not it perfectly aligns with your own. That’s valuable. I think it’s unfortunate that people would drop off as soon as they detect you are following a slightly different path than theirs. We should all be inspired by those who try to follow their own paths.
As Bob Dylan has said, “To Live Outside The Law You Must Be Honest…”
I’ve found nothing but honesty in your podcasts, and I think honesty, authenticity, and sincerity is the path God wants us to follow and you’ve done it.
You’ve set a beautiful example.
Maxine Hanks was re-baptized into the church after her own journey outside of Mormonism. Her story, among others, helped me when I was first made aware of uncorrelated history a year ago. Her story helped me see that my new awareness was only a beginning, not an end, to my journey. I never set out to leave or stay in the church. I wanted to be open to new truths and experiences. I wanted to be kind to the memories of joy my belief in Mormonism held for me. I wanted to be true to the feelings of pain from deceit. It’s a journey – always a journey.
Yes there are those who would criticize you now – let them. We are all on different journey’s and who’s to say that one day, against all their well meant intentions to stay away, they themselves might also find themselves back in the fold and you will again be their support, because who else knows their pain of questioning, disbelief, and then trying to return. Or maybe they won’t, and that’s okay too.
Eight months ago I left my Mormon world behind, I didn’t know at the time if it would be temporary or permanent, but I knew I needed a break from the pain I felt at church. I didn’t understand others who had returned after a faith crisis. How could they connect at church with everything they knew?
I longed to return to church but I forced myself to stay away knowing it would only cause pain. Finally I was ready. I went to Sacrament – only sacrament. It happened to be testimony meeting. Of course there were moments when certain words were spoken that I cringed. But overall, being there, being among my people despite being on the other side of the world, I felt at home! I felt the Spirit! I felt the goodness of others! And my cousin felt it too as the first thing he said before we left the chapel was: I really liked the feeling here – how do I join?
My Mormonism has changed – it had to. I still haven’t worked out what I believe and what I don’t, but I’m in no rush for that. I’m also not ready to be 100% active yet. I’m taking my journey one day at a time. This is my life, I live it, I love it!
I’ve had both wonderful and horrible experiences growing up in the church. I’ve been in wards where I had no friends – literally. I’ve experienced the pain of gossip that extends beyond the borders of my ward and stake. I should have left the church long ago – but here’s why I don’t: it’s within these walls of Mormonism that I’ve experienced the Divine. My spiritual experiences are sacred to me – they’re mine, not the church’s nor anyone else’s. But thank God for the church that taught me that I could have my own personal relationship with God. Thank God for providing me times where I saw the best wards where Love was the glue that united us. Thank God for teaching me that the most important thing is Love. Thank God for getting me through a life of hardship and showing me the beauty instead. Thank God for helping me to dig deeper, to break through the pain, and to see and feel the beauty and love on the other side. I know my path isn’t for everyone, but to those who question why some of us stay – because there really is beauty and love beyond the initial pain.
I’m happy for you!
Michelle,
Thanks for sharing. That was beautiful.
As an ex-mormon I am happy for John. He can live the life he chooses.
I do not believe in the Church for legitimate reasons. But I can also see why others belong to the church, and those reasons are legitimate as well.
The problem with so many Mormons and ex-Mormons is that they base their beliefs too much on the witness and pressure of others and not on a true gathering of evidence and reasoning.
So people, stop bad mouthing John for making decisions that he thinks are best for him and his own.
I’m an ex-Mormon. I believe some miracles defy logic and reason, therefore, in my mind logic and reason is not absolute for determining some truths.
John,
Ususally I keep thoughts and comments to myself for the most part. I have to be honest and say I have mixed feelings about this podcast. By writing you this I hope to get a couple questions answered and let this all go because it is too heavy for me to carry anymore. I have to go so I can find my own journey and not be influenced by anyone anymore. I want to state the positives and negatives both if thats ok. I hope you can answer my questions in return.
Positive: Its your journey and you have to find the peace inside you. Family is all we really know that is tangible right now, so holding onto yours is wonderful. I remind myself of that daily. You have opened up a whole world where people with doubts can look for answers and find fellowship. What people choose to do with that is their own. I see myself in you… sometimes I feel so much guilt that it causes me depression and that is a dark place. Guilt from what specifically I don’t know other than the usual expectations. You still sound a bit unsure of where this will take you. Are you solid or hoping right now?
Negatives: A lot say the meeting with the GA is what changed you. I don’t so much feel that. I think it took a lot to stand up and do what you did. However, when you mentioned your weekly visit with the SP it made me wonder if this is a way to have a theropy session per say. It seems he listened to you and when he had you, he started in on discussions. I can totally relate John. I feel myself pulled all the time as well. I think wherever we are at certain points in our lives it causes us to be effected by outside things. What I mean is that you did spend many years searching and struggling. Wanting that answer and peace never really came so that time became dark for you. This is also what I experience. However, you never reached out to anything else to fill the “void” of the church. How do you know you wouldn’t have found something there rather that be spirituality, music, nature, Bible etc? Doing this may have lightened the dark but you did just like me….spend all that time searching and going nowhere so its getting darker all the time. It is easy to find a light that feels right…any light when you have been in the dark so long. I am obsessed with finding out all I can and fear I am missing that one clue to make all the pieces fit. I think those that search, really search, when they take the time they need do find something that is good and is right individually. For me, I am still searching. I haven’t allowed myself to branch out because I have been engulfed in all the history, anger, and dark. I want out of that dark. I want to find where I am supposed to be. In doing this if I just run back to the church I will not ever know. I hear you say you feel right where you are. I hope for you that is true and lasts. I am glad to see that your family is entacted. Its hard I know. I just wanted to ask if you felt that you got to branch out and see what else was out there before going back. I know the dark things scared you. I only ask because I am so similar and myself saying I will go back but not because I want to or have found anything else. I havent even given myself the time yet. So, long story short…my questions:
1) Do you feel your weekly meetings with your SP have influenced you back into the fold? He listened to what you said to draw you in and then did the missionary thing.
2) Did you ever search for something real to replace the “church” in your life? I often wonder if you did if this would cause you to never have looked back.
3) You say you relate to the prophet now since starting your own group and seeing the challenges that go with it. I get that, but yours was just that…a group. He is supposed to be a Prophet of God, working as His mouth piece. I would think there would be some guidance and inspiration there to help him. If it is truely God’s work sure it would be hard, but not impossible. The leader of the church’s situation I think was much different than yours. He has the help, money, resources etc. He is “supposed to have the Spirit and God” as well. So, I struggle to see where it was THAT similar.
I’m sure I have many more questions. I hope you can take the time to answer these. Either way, I have to move on. I do think this time with your family will be healing. I pray for you and your family and pray God will bless you and us all as we take this journey.
Kelly, insightful points. I too hope John has the mental/physical energy to answer these questions. Your “dark” place is all too familiar to me.
John,
The Disney movie “The Newsies” keeps popping into my head. It feels to me like you’ve taken on the role of Jack Kelly. You became the voice for so many like minded people desiring change and transparency in the church. You became the face of a movement through your work with Mormon Stories. You got the attention of the church. You had access to the “big-wigs”. Yet, just like the movie, mid-way through the fight… you walk out wearing a suit and carrying your papes. The disappointment in the faces of those you rallied has little to do with you giving up the fight for personal reasons. That would be admirable. The disappointment may stem from the perceived partnership with the orginization we’ve been protesting all along. It’s unsettling. At perhaps it leaves room for speculation as to what kind of deal they offered you behind closed doors. Those who have felt betrayed by the church… now feel betrayed by their “leader”, their voice. One can only hope this all ends just like the movie.
If nothing else, I hope this increases John’s credibility with believers and thus widens the listening base of Mormon Stories among faithful Mormons. They more than anyone need exposure to many of the ideas presented in the interviews.
I’ve been an avid MS listener and passive participator in the MS community for 6 or so years. John, as I’ve gotten to know you over the years through your podcast only (as much as that is possible) I have always been in wonder at your energy, drive, and time that you have committed to this project, on top of all the rest. As someone who has a somewhat over-developed sense of my personal limitations, it has always boggled my mind as to how you were pulling it off. After this interview I can see it hasn’t been without a cost. I respect you for deciding to take the course you are taking and reorienting your priorities in the way you feel is best for you and your family.
I feel that your legacy is one of always demonstrating great empathy and fighting for individuals who need space to live in a way that is healthy for THEM. You deserve the same treatment! I have yet to read a critique of your course of action that has moved my option on this.
Also, even though there have been cost to you and your family ,from my point of view, your work has not been for nothing and is still a great accomplished. Though it’s easy for me to say, perhaps it has been worth the sacrifice. I wonder if you still see it that way?
Very best wishes to you and your family!
John,
I was going to send you a private email but then I just decided to go ahead and post it here. I have not yet listened to the podcast; I usually listen to them on my commute to or from work and it will take me a few more days to get through all three parts, and I wanted to go ahead and get this comment out.
More than anything else, I would like to thank you for being willing over the years to openly share such a private, personal, and at times painful journey with such a broad audience. I’ve been a long-time Mormon Stories listener and financial supporter, and as you may recall, we’ve met a few times. I have not always agreed with you or your guests, and there have been some lines of questioning that I wished you had taken further. But I had the luxury of sitting in my car or jogging and listening to the interviews in private. You did something that hardly anyone else here was brave enough to do, which was to openly and honestly share your very genuine beliefs, doubts, triumphs, struggles, frustrations, challenges with, and gratitude for the church publicly. This must have taken an enormous toll on you and your family, and I wish I could say something more meaningful than “thank you”. I am sure that I speak for thousands of listeners when I say that I am profoundly grateful for the content you have made available and the manner in which you have shared it. The dialogue that you have helped create and share has helped thousands of people work through the issues and challenges relating to their membership in the LDS community, their decisions to leave it, and their attempts to navigate it as they worked through different paradigms.
You’ve done amazing work and you’re a good man. Good luck with whatever path you choose to pursue; we will be fortunate if you continue to share your thoughts and experiences with us. Thank you again.
Loved hearing John’s story. Most of my comments are over at A Thoughtful Faith. But I did have one question, don’t know if it has been asked yet or not. I’ll read the comments later.
So, if you didn’t feel comfortable with putting out Phillips podcast why do you feel comfortable advertising it? It seems duplicitous. I’m not trying to say that is what your intentions are, it is just how you come off. Like you really do want us to listen to it. And, of course, I did. It was interesting. I didn’t realize the 2nd anointing was still practiced to that degree now.
I didn’t advertise the Phillips interview, but tons of people have been asking about it, and Sarah prepped a question about it…so I didn’t mind talking about it. I loved the story. I love Tom. I just didn’t feel comfortable releasing it on Mormon Stories. But I’m happy to talk about it (in general terms) if/when people are interested.
John,
I posted on your fb page as well, and decided to comment here as well since I felt you might want one explanation from someone who has financially supported MS and decided to stop.
First of all – thank you for all your hard work over the years. You have no idea how much you have helped me – both through MS and staylds. I respect you deeply, John, and my termination of financial support in no way should be construed as a change in this. You will never make everyone happy, and it isn’t your responsibility to do so. The most important thing is for you to be true to yourself. Just don’t be surprised if that puts you on a very different path from many of your supporters (such as myself). I think I actually outgrew my personal need for MS quite a while ago, but I kept donating as a way of “paying it forward” to other people who still needed your help – people like my husband.
In part 3 of the podcast you maintain that those who cannot make Mormonism work for them should “move on” to something else. I couldn’t agree more with you, and yet it is virtually impossible to do this if your spouse stays in the church. This is the position I find myself in. Even though I formally resigned from the church years ago (and have been personally much healthier emotionally/psychologically for it), we still get contacted all the time since my husband is still a member. The Youth and Primary organizations are constantly trying to re-activate my kids because of his continued membership. It creates so much stress in our home, and is a huge wedge in our marriage. Mormon Stories Podcast was our only common ground when it came to the church, and I’ll be honest that it was my sincere hope that it would help my husband to eventually make the same journey as me out of the church. My worst nightmare is for him to stay in the church forever, since I really don’t see how our marriage will survive that. I am truly in awe of people who manage to make that work.
Let me be clear – I know it is NOT your job to set an example for my husband to follow – even if I kind of hoped for it. Your job is to do what is best for you and your family, and I applaud and respect you for doing just that. I am saddened that it takes you on a different path from the one I am on, but more than that (and perhaps irrationally) it also causes me to lose what hope I had of ever getting my husband onto the same path as me – but again, this is NOT your responsibility, and never was.
I think you sound happy in this podcast, and I am happy for you.
By ending my financial support, I am “moving on” now – probably should have done it a long time ago, but like I said I was perhaps holding on for some of the wrong reasons – I can’t dictate my husband’s journey any more than any of the haters you are dealing with think that they can dictate yours.
As I said on your fb page – I AM glad that the church has someone like you within their ranks to be a voice of moderation.
I wish you and your family only the best. Love and peace, brother.
Kate, First, thanks for sharing your feelings on this subject. I sense that you are a thoughtful person as you navigate space within your mixed-faith home. I want to comment on one item you spoke of. You said:
“The Youth and Primary organizations are constantly trying to re-activate my kids because of [my husband’s] continued membership. It creates so much stress in our home, and is a huge wedge in our marriage.”
Church members are reaching out in the ways they know, via Youth and Primary programs, to involve your kids; and you do not like it as you expressed. Their good intentions are amiss to you; and your expressions to them are likely marginalized or misunderstood. I see MISPLACED ENERGIES all around; and that saddens me. I am trying to find a way to break the deadlock for you; and similarly, within my own heart, mind, and experience in my community; (I’m on Utah’s Wasatch Front.)
I wish there were a way to redirect the good intentions of Church members in your area toward an outcome that you’ll accept to create win-win; one that will respect your space, his space, your kids’ space.
I see some of the problems that you see within the Church put chose to stay and manage within. If you please, help me understand why you feel it unworkable for your kids to attend. Is it the spoken and subliminal messaging that your kids will likely get about seminary, temple, missions, etc, that you wish you could separate from talk about good citizenship in the larger community? In other words, you cannot separate the bad and good of it so you opt for them to stay away entirely? I seek understanding.
John,
i just love you man! You have done so much for me. Thank you for creating Mormon Stories Podcasts, and thanks for the communities that you have created. I am glad that you see you are just one person. What you have created can be delegated now to others who can use it. I still find value in them.
I have to admit that I was very surprised and confused at first by your choice, but I know what it is to make an unpopular decision. How could I possibly cast a stone at you? Your interviews gave me information and not just that comfort. They have opened my mind and gave me the courage and support I needed to leave the Church that I felt so enslaved to. For me, I feel such peace and love having left. I feel that I am able to make my own choices without checking with someone else first. I feel closer to God than ever before. Thank you my friend. I wish you the same comfort and support that you have given so many of us.
I believe that John is an honest man who enlightened all of us a bit more about the whacky world of Mormonism than we ever would have been otherwise. For that he deserves great praise. But I always felt John, in all his incarnations, has been like the guy who finds God (or Marx or sobriety, etc. etc.) and now wants everyone else to follow suit. As one who has been there and done that it was all a bit amusing, if also tragic.
Good on you for where you have reached John. Life is a journey and not a destination and the sooner we can understand that the sooner peace will be found. Those that have shown disrespect towards you for your decision need to respect you for that. You can’t please everybody in life and sadly from your experience and others we have seen that.
You have helped a lot of people with pressing issues that have rocked them to their core. Your podcasts have helped them get out of these difficult times which no doubt they are grateful for.
All the best in the future for you and your family John. Stay strong, stay humble and stay honest.
Matiu
The comments on here have been almost as interesting as the interview itself. Can’t say I’m surprised by all the negativity. People on both sides of the spectrum, both TBMs and ExMos, and everyone in-between seek for validation of their own opinions/interpretations. Especially from those in public light (as John is). So ExMos may have believed he was one of theirs when his podcasts were leading people to leaving the Church. TBMs may have thought he was one of theirs when he was returning to Church and claiming a loss of spirit while being away from it. NOMs may believe he is one of theirs with his progressive interpretation of Church history/doctrine. He can’t please everyone. Nor is he trying to. But the feelings of betrayal or inevitable. I am what you would call a TBM, and even I can feel some sort of validation when someone returns to the Church. E.G. I really enjoyed Don Bradley’s FAIR interview. Not nearly as much as I enjoyed Grant Palmer’s MoSt interviews. We all seem to be more biased towards those who feel or think the way we do. But I digress.
John, thanks for directly responding to some of these comments on here to clarify issues brought up in the interview. Every Mormon has an interesting story, and I’m glad we get to hear updates on your story, no matter where it leads you.
John –
I found this podcast to be *profoundly* moving – maybe more so than ANY other mormon stories podcast. So many deep and important themes arose. This may be the first one I listen to twice. Three times I stayed in my parked car after arriving at my destination just to finish a segment. Awesome.
One of the thoughts I especially appreciated was the insight you shared about the tricky balance of ego as one gains popularity and influence. Also you commented on how surprisingly difficult it is to organize a group of people and keep a focus on the good. Recognizing this challenge certainly helps me sympathize with some of our flawed leaders and admire them that much more. Some have probably struggled more than others with the temptation towards pride as their influence grew. Some have been more successful than other at keeping the ego at bay. I like how you seemed to share a new view and sympathy for that challenge.
When hearing about your personal struggles and how hard this has been I was moved with a sincere feeling of love and appreciation for you. I admire you for fighting that fight.
What you and your colleagues at mormon stories have done has had a deep and meaningful impact on my life and my relationship with faith and doubt. I’m a better person because of something you’ve done – forever changed. Think of how many others for whom the same is true. I think you efforts have either started or supported movements and positive trends that will ripple out in meaningful ways for a long time. Don’t underestimate this. Yes, you could have handled mormon stories differently, but not BETTER (IMO.) Maybe a different group would have benefited more from a different approach, but for the group I fall best fit in to – thoughtful latter day saints who want to remain both of those two things things – you’ve done something that has never been done before, something that has needed doing for a long time.
Thank you.
John sounds so humble now. i’m really happy for him
John,
I respect your personal journey, and I respect you making a choice to live the journey in a way you feel is more harmonious.
However, I questioned why you were so habitually depleted by hearing the pain of all of these people? Not because that isn’t a valid point, but because I wonder why you personally tried to take on a burden that should have been referred out to twenty or more clinicians? Indeed, I can see how you reached such a difficult impetus, but I also feel like there could have been some addressing of boundaries so that you didn’t have to reach such a place of utter depletion in the first place. Just a thought, because I won’t presume to know how you personally dealt with everyone, other than the impression given in the podcast.
As I listened to you describe some of this I felt like we are all products of our culture, and Mormon culture often promotes us running ourselves into the dust thinking that we have to be “exceedingly valiant” in all that we do. It also promotes a huge amount of dichotomous thinking. And that too weaved itself into this podcast.
But best of wishes to you and your family.
Namaste
John, thank you for your sharing your experience and current frame of mind with us. I appreciate your incredible authenticity with us too. Wishing you and your family peace and growth together!
BTW, the last 15 minutes of the podcast were espcially poignant for me. I don’t share your current views, but I fully respect your decisions and felt your humility and honesty.
Just finished the podcast; this is the first and only one I’ve listened to. A few notes:
– I think its easy to get caught up in a community, especially an online community.
– It is interesting that intellectualism needs to be checked at the door in order to foster your spiritual and emotional side. I don’t think intellectualism needs to be at the expense of spirituality and emotion.
– I respect your decision to stay within the organization and try to influence it from the ‘inside’ but yet it seems naive to support the church simply as an institution when the institution doesn’t view itself that way.
John Gardner, I didn’t hear him say that he had to check his intellectualism at the door. He said that he had only been looking at things through the intellectual lens which he deemed to be insufficient. He said that he had been ignoring his spiritual and emotional side. We are not intellectual beings only. I don’t imagine a fully realized God would be a purely intellectual being either. It seems to me that John Dehlin is saying that once he looked at the gospel as a more complete person (i.e. intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, experientially) then he more clearly saw the positive impact it was having in his life as well as his families. (If I am incorrect on this assumption, John Dehlin, than please correct me) Intellectualism doesn’t have to be at the expense of spirituality and emotion but rather in balance with them. Then, I believe each of us can see most clearly, how the decisions we make are affecting our lives.
John,
I remember with fondness the time years back I fell upon your video ” why we leave”. I remember feeling so relieved that others understood how I felt and what I was going thru. That singular video helped me thru a very painful time in my life. For that, I thank you. You have been on a journey my friend, and the journey is still not over. I wish you and yours peace & healing,
Thank you so much for this interview and for being vulnerable enough to share your thought process and experience about having been so close to leaving your family. What you said in Part 3 beginning at 6:00 and ending at 14:47 is so POWERFUL! It rings absolutely true to my own experience. Actually, to my ex-husband’s experience, with me being the one left behind. At the time, I didn’t recognize the significance of a certain comment he made one night, but I’ve always remembered the exact moment one evening when he first said he wondered what he could have been and done in life if he hadn’t grown up in the church and gone on a mission. This comment, and the subsequent dwelling on ‘what could have been’, came after five years of anger, constant negativity and obsessing about church history. I remember it so well because it was very hurtful. It was hurtful because I knew what that really meant was that he was wondering if he would have married me. And deep deep down in my heart of hearts, I knew what that really really REALLy meant, was that he was thinking about all the sex he had missed out on, and probably what sex he was missing out on at that very moment.
His crisis of faith began very honestly and sincerely. I truly felt for him and his struggles. Like most others here, he stumbled upon some of our church’s difficult history on FARMS and FAIR. He loved God and the church, and was doing his best to serve and be a good person. But as he began to have more and more questions and then more and more doubts, he began to approach his quest to find out whether or not the church was true, once and for all, from a purely intellectual stand point. He had decided he couldn’t trust his feelings because his feelings are what had led him to believe he had ever felt the spirit, and since he had felt the spirit about some things that didn’t seem right, he couldn’t then allow himself to make a decision about truth based on good feelings, which he felt he was probably just manufacturing himself.
So then came the endless quest for truth with fear of being fooled by his own manufactured feelings, and then came the frustration, and then came the anger, and more anger, and more anger, and then came resentment, and more resentment, and more still, and then came the ‘what ifs’, and more ‘what ifs’, and still more, and then came the dwelling on a fantasy life he had missed out on, and some more of that, and then came the classic male midlife crisis, and then came the self destructive acting out of the male midlife crisis, and then came our divorce.
I know some will say, as some have already said in these comments, that this just feeds into stereotype of doubters just wanting to sin, etc. From my own experience, having seen my ex-husband’s sincerity and honesty in the beginning stages of his crisis, I know that to be false. But what I know to be true now, is that years of constant anger and resentment WILL have a profoundly negative affect on a person’s mind. Literally. Studies on the neuro pathways of the brain bear this out. So when John says ‘to move on’, I feel like his message is to move on from the negativity. Move on from the anger. Move on to something that makes you happy, which doesn’t even have to be in this church. It can be whatever you want it to be, but find a way to find happiness, instead of continuing to feed the anger that will likely lead you down a sorrowful path. I think that’s his message anyway. That’s my interpretation.
So for me, the segment I mentioned in Part 3, especially from 10:00 to 14:47, are extremely powerful!!! EXTREMELY. If anyone reading this has found him or herself dwelling on the ‘what ifs’, and if you find yourself thinking all the time about how your life would be so much better without your spouse, or that divorce really isn’t that big a deal… please please please listen to Part 3 of this interview again with a different perspective. Please get into marital therapy if you haven’t tried that yet. Please examine how many hours of the day you spend on negative thoughts and negative thought processes, and begin replacing some of that time with love and positivity. Please entertain the idea of ‘moving on’, in that moving on can be full of the possibility of joy and happiness in the family you have already created, which can happen in or out of the church. Please. Pretty please with whatever you want on top!
Thank you again John, and cheers to your new found happiness in your marriage and family!
John,
You have played a very supportive role for thousands during their confusing times. Over the past few years I have always felt a welcomed acceptance from you regardless of where I have been on the belief spectrum. I hope your listeners offer you that same respect. Thanks for your sacrifice. I too “wish the church had 100,000 John Dehlins too.”
Good on you John. Take care and stay strong, stay humble, and stay true to yourself and your ideals.
Matiu
J.D. .has always been right on the fault line between the pole of the religiouus LDS and that of their opposite, secular LDS counterparts. This balancing space whithin the LDS world is sometimes referred to, apparently, as the NOM. (Just to keep our terms straight, for this comment….)
So, in any case, such seekers as JD, i.e., the NOMers (like unto, for example, Reform Jews or U/Uish-side of the spectrum Christians) are quite a bit more libertine on average than their polar opposite, more orthodox/traditional coreligionist counterparts. Especially the vangaurd among them.
Nonetheless such “libertineness,” for my lack of a better turn of phrase, is not the essential component of NOMism, (Reform Judaism, the most liberal spectrums of Christianity, et al, ad infinitum). No, what IS most essential is the stuff J.D. emphasizes and ever-endeavors to exemplify. And that stuff is, without question, “religous” in nature. By defeinition. / By all logic. And, in J.D.’s case, it uses such frames of reference as “keeping the spirit,” “avoiding being intellectually arrogant,” and so on and so forth. Whatever indiosyncratic ways J.D. – and any of his NOMish counterparts – come to define any such features of Mormon beliefs and cultural byways indeed make for the full spectrum of hues within the rainbow of (Rocky Mountains – lineaged) “Mormon” exoerience.
And, many secularists – those whose tastes run toward wanting zero actual religion within their approach toward or understanding of theiir particular (WOULD-BE “RELGIOUS”) hertiage are threatened by the very existance of NOMS and other of the most “liberal” religionists.”
This just feels like a really BIG “slap in the face”.
John, having read your reconstruction story, I am glad that you are finding happiness with your family enshrined within the Mormon ideal. This seems what you always craved and longed for in your quest for inner peace and understanding.
You said in part of your interview that the world that one finds outside of Mormonism is, in your words, really only “a mirage”. Can’t you see with that simple short statement, you have once again become immersed in the idealistic and exalted world of Mormonism. Has your clarity of vision been so affected, that you cannot see that the church’s self proclaimed elitist stature over the rest of the human family, is in actual fact a “mirage“ of its own making, a monumental delusion being perpetuated by its leaders and thrust upon the obedient and unquestioning shoulders of its members.
You also mentioned your excellent podcast with Tom Philips. You stated that the Temple Ordinances are sacred and that all faiths deserve that their worship practices be respected as such. You mentioned as examples, the Muslims at prayer, the Jews within their synagogues and Roman Catholicism. But there is one very important factor that differentiates between Mormon Temple worship and the others faiths that you mentioned. Other faith’s modes of worship are common knowledge and totally in the public domain for all to have knowledge of and are not secrets kept hidden from the world. That the Mormon church is so determined to keep the Temple Ceremonies such a secret from the rest of the human family, is the disturbing reality of Mormon delusion and prideful arrogance. Self proclaimed exaltation is an ideal that caused Jesus himself to censure. It is indeed depressing and quite shameful that only influential celebrities who may be deemed a threat to the Mormon world, are granted exclusive audience and able to bend the ears of the exalted Brethren towards their concerns. Families and individuals of all varieties throughout this wonderful world and universe are equally important to our heavenly Creators. One group of people do not own or have special and exclusive rights to this.
Andrew – As I recall, I said that sometimes, some people leave their spouse and family for some supposed ideal (another woman, etc.), and that sometimes this supposed ideal that they sacrifice spouse of family for can end up being a mirage.
I stand by that.
I also said that for some people, divorce leads to more happiness. I stand by that too.
John, thanks for starting Mormon Stories. And thanks for allowing yourself to be under the microscope along with the many that you have interviewed. You have truly opened my mind and heart to the incredible diversity that is the Mormon experience. I sincerely hope you find a way to continue interviewing people for the Mormon Stories podcast.
Keep your chin up and know that you are loved.
John, loved this podcast. Thought it was epic. So many people I know are talking about it.
Throughout the whole thing I was curious if you had seen Malcolm Gladwell’s TED talk that deals with happiness and variety, because it applis so well to Mormonism. Or different types of Mormonism. It’s a short TED talk so it’s worth a gander.
https://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html
It deals with food and a revolution to how products added variety. Basically the realization that there is no “Perfect Pepsi” just “Perfect Pepsis” There is no one size fits all.
Such it seems is the case with Mormonism as well. And I am saddened at the criticism of you by those that are out of the church, because they feel they have found their Perfect Pepsi as if that should be the Perfect Pepsi for everyone.
The path that will provide the most happiness is different for everyone, and I hope and wish you the best as you continue to try and find it.
*** As a fun side note, there is a flipside to this Gladwell’s TED talk in Barry Schwartz’s TED talk about The Paradox of Choice.
https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
He argues that increase amounts of choices can take away from happiness because we never know if we are making the right decision. I have found this to be true in myself sometimes and I go in and out of activity.
Fun two TED talks that really got me thinking and apply very well to Mormon faith journeys. Thought I’d share them with you if you hadn’t already seen them. But in you schooling you’ve probably come across much more that this pop-psychology type stuff.
I wanted to say thank you so much for all your time, energy and care in putting these podcasts together! I have never commented on any of the podcasts though I have listened to almost all of them. My first exposure to MS was during a very “dark” period of my own journey. I remember, after a friend told me about the podcasts, I lay on my bed that night listening to an episode and felt the longing to die lift, and it was as though someone was wrapping me up in a warm, loving blanket. I knew there were people out there who could understand where I was and I suddenly realized I wasn’t going crazy (interesting how much being understood and belonging matter).
I never got really involved in the community aspect of MS because I felt that I had spent so much of my life doing and believing what I was “supposed to do,” that I needed space to really figure things out for myself. I did have a lot of people on my “team,” including a therapist, a couple of dear friends, a meditation mentor, and a couple other body/mind healers. As I was listening I thought, “no wonder he felt so drained…he was giving and giving without space to refuel and do his own healing and recovery” (not that helping others isn’t part of our own healing, but it can only be part…this is still tricky to remember somedays as I interpreted my church learning to say that if I want to recharge it is best to serve others).
One thing that I did notice as I was listening was how often you talked about the “pride,” and being embarrassed that sometimes there were moments of prideful motivation, or maybe many moments that had some motivation of “pride” or “anger.” While I agree that getting stuck in placed of pride and anger can be emotionally draining and begin to feel quite dark, they are also part of a process, and my offering is that I accept you even in your pride. I believe pride comes from pain…always, and that if we’re stuck in pride or anger it’s because we haven’t had the healing we need yet to let it go. There’s still something there unseen or unnurtured. So, since I’m working to let go of my “black and white” training, I do belive that there were times of pride and anger, but I also believe there were motivations of love and compassion. I don’t think it needs to be an all or nothing, and hopefully time will give space for seeing more clearly all the differing motivations that existed, and compassion for them all.
I too work in the mental health field as a licensed marriage and family therapist, and have logged some of my experiences with leaving the church on a blog, jennymorrowjourney.blogspot.com. If it ever feels helpful to read yet another person’s walk through healing and finding emotional health and spirituality after leaving the church feel free to read.
May you find the healing and peace you seek :)
Much love to your family
Oh my heck John! I’m sorry you felt you had to go back. I mean, I totally understand the good things the church brings to the lives of members including community, structure and the like, but in the end the church in not what it claims to be, or do you really now believe that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ appeared to Jospeh Smith in 1820 near his home in Palmyra? I’ve not heard that yet. I hear and I get the pragmatic aspects, including the powerful draw of the church of one’s childhood, but to me the important question is: Is the church what it claims to be? If you had been raised Baptist, would you still pine to return to the Mormon church? Is your integrity served by belonging to an organization for organizational sake when this said organization’s self proclaimed mission is not to function first and foremost as a social structure, but to serve as the only vehicle to reach one’s potential before it’s defined God? It seems to me this may not be so important to you John, rather I’ve gathered that you are a warm human being full of love and feeling, if not to a fault. You have a propensity to empathy, especially for others, which I see personally as a fault as your burden is probably unnecessarily more than it should be. I believe you see the church as a shelter in the storm of human emotional need. I get it. But in the end, the church makes specific claims about reality that are just not true to which I promise you, the Mormon church has no more idea about some higher power humanity calls God than anyone else, and one of the greatest gifts I’ve ever come upon is the freedom to not believe in this entity at all.
With that said I would be a horse’s ass if I didn’t say thanks for the incredible perspectives that I have thrilled to on your forum. I soared with Micheal Coe, Brian Dalton, James Nagel, Grant Palmer, and the many more that I wouldn’t have space to recognize. You were fair and balanced, and I was even glad that you always let me disagree with you if I felt so inclined. I came to your forum with my Atheism firmly established, and found no influence one way or another on my belief foundations, but found the information enriching, and helped me understand my history with more insight.
Mormon Stories is about Mormons, not about John Dehlin. Belif does not rise or fall on John, it rises and falls on the evidence. To be honest, there is more damning detrimental evidence against the Mormon church outside of it’s structure and history, than what lies within, even though that’s pretty convincing/damning as well. Maybe the best thing John has done is let people of all doubting levels, from little doubters to full blown Atheists like myself say, I’m Mormon, I’m here, and I’ll contribute where and how I can. People have never frowned upon my disbelieving boat that pulls the young men and women, my disbelieving hammer and nails, my disbelieving back that hauls furniture to my disbelieving truck. My disbelieving snow shovel that clears a path of love to my believing neighbor. John, I’ve always felt a bunch of love coming from you, along with your annoying (smiley cute face here) need to believe and have community. Not all of us have that need nor wired to want such community. Don’t sell your integrity too far down the orthodox path. Come back every once in a while and regale us with your back in standing exploits, bitching just a little about your troglodyte of a Bishop who will chastise you and your wife and her immodest yet cute green tank top when you’re next intervewed.
I’m new to this site. I can relate first hand to many of the questions of faith that I see here. However, I have to ask John as well as others here, is it possible that those who surrender their faith may have acted rashly? My early impression is that Bushman, Givens, Barlow etc have a sense or proportion and context that all could learn from.
Also, I just listend to the Palmer interview. I’ve read Broadie, Bushman, Samuel Taylor, BH Roberts, etc. All accounts of the rise and fall of Nauvoo. I have to say, it seems to me that Palmer gives the most credibility to William Law of them all.
Four separate individuals made affidavit before a justice of the peace that they were present in secret meetings where Law led a plot to murder Joseph. Surely Palmer is not ignorant to this. To me his failure to mention this is a real issue.
John, you didn’t seem to pull any punches with the believers you interviewed. I have to say I didn’t see the same zeal with the interviews you did with Palmer, etc. Why was that?
Hey M, I’ve never heard of William Law’s plot to murder Joseph Smith. I did a quick google search and couldn’t find anything. Would you please point me to a link or reference?
I read it in BH Roberts’s book The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo. I’m away now but can give you chapter and page if later if you need. I belive the chapter is titled betrayal among the brothers or something close to that.
@ Rude Dog: I have a feeling you didn’t listen to the Podcast in full (especially Part 3). From the interview, John is now anything but professing to be now going down the “orthodox path”. When asked directly about what he thought about Joseph Smith, he didn’t profess belief in the 1st vision, but that the Restoration was valid as a group of people’s attempts to understand spirituality. John states MULTIPLE times in the interview that the Mormon church has one among many valid ideas about a higher power. You state that John returned to church for the organizational and social benefits, and while he may have advocated this view in the past, his return was clearly motivated by his spiritual and emotional needs more than anything (especially in his interviews with his stake president over the past year)
If you want to ask John questions here, you should’ve made sure he didn’t answer them already in the podcast. Now, I would be interested to hear your opinion on the podcast once you actually listen to it.
Thanks, Connor.
John, I understood the LOTR metaphor but I wasn’t the biggest fan of it and only because I have gotten so sick of LDS people treating any Star Wars/LOTR/Star Trek/Harry Potter series as if they were inspired of God and relate so well to the gospel. I don’t want my favorite series tainted with a different genre of fiction :) It took me out a little. I know that is a lame criticism but I had to get it off my chest. You’ve done a great job with the podcast over the years, and you have helped me a lot when I first struggled with the church. Being happy is what is most important and if the church brings you happiness than it is good, and it is a good organization. I suppose I can let the LOTR metaphor slide for all the good you have done for people.
John,
I didn’t know until these 3 podcast, that you were experiencing such problems with the LDS authorities.I’m Realy sorry that you had to experience such controvercy.
From listening to Mormon Stories over the past 2 years. i have NEVER
thought you were disrespectfully to the LDS church.
I was born into the LDS church and stayed A member for 50 + years
But thru studying history,the bible, and comparing that to the bogus stories and doctorine I had been taught, i left.
Now finding joy and peace from the grace of GOD.
I hope you and you family find peace and love on you path.
Dear John,
Good luck on this next leg of your journey. May you find peace and renewal of you soul, and may you and your family be as close as you have ever been. I see you as arriving at the point you hoped for from the beginning: your cries were heard, you concerns were validated, you now you can be in the church with everyone knowing where you stand, and you can retain the relationships that are inextricably tied to the church. That is a noble achievement, although the road you traveled to get there was so very long, hard and tortuous. Thank you for all that you have done for those on the fringe of Mormonism. I consider the money I contributed to Mormon Stories well spent. I ask you to please consider the following: please don’t make it sound like you came back to full activity because you realized that the problem was with you and not the church. When you say things like an angel was on one shoulder and a devil was on the other, and the angel was telling you to stay in the church, and the devil was telling you to leave, then that implies that I listened to the devil, which is what my family and friends think, which you and I know is not the case. It is impossible to chose the right words all of the time, but please don’t make it sound like you were in the grip of the adversary before and now you are not.
May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face.
Very truly yours,
Brian Staley
Brian,
I don’t think that I ever said that the angel told me to come back to church. That was my own decision. The angel/devil metaphor was used in relation to my battles with my own inner demons (pride, selfishness, etc.). I think I made it super clear in the interview that one can be good/noble in or out of the church.
John
John,
Thank you for all you’ve done! You said in the podcast that sometimes it makes you feel uncomfortable when people thank you, but I think it bears repeating that your work has been very important to many, many people. Though I can’t say its the decision I would have made, I completely respect and somewhat understand why you have chosen what you have.
I do have one question though. You mentioned quite a few times the importance of emotion and spirituality–that you were ignoring those for too long, that you were spending too much energy intellectually and that you feel that you need to tap into your emotions and spirit etc.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? What does it mean to you to “plug in” to one’s emotions or one’s spirituality?
Thank you if you respond, and thank you for everything you’ve done, even if you don’t!
John I wish you and your family the best. The podcasts have really helped me during my faith crisis. I hope that if you stop doing them that the current library will stay available for years to come for any who need help navigating this storm. I would never join the church if I were researching and investigating the full history. But it is so hard if one has grown up in it. There is such on hold on so many levels. It’s so hard to let it go and to make sense of why. It is hard to decide if it’s real or not. It seems like we are all in a paradox.
This was a treat, John. Sometimes, the honest pursuit of truth and happiness leads one away from the LDS church. Sometimes, it leads one back. Its wonderful to hear our friend from so many years, who has led us all through an amazing (and sometimes wild) ride be so transparent.
Thank you. Seriously. Thank you.
Dear John,
I am so happy that you have found a way to peace and more joy while still maintaining your honesty and integrity. It is also very encouraging to know that a person can have their own unique kind of “testimony”, be open and honest about it and still be wanted, loved and respected by their stake president. That’s as it should be. The Mormon church needs a lot more people like you who can help it hold on to it’s Big Beautiful Baby (the Gospel of Love) by throwing out all of it’s dark and dirty bath water. Everything has it’s opposites of light and darkness including people and organizations, no exceptions. Our job is to experience the contrast, learn, grow expand and have joy. You’ve done a great job of experiencing the contrast, learning, growing, expanding, feeling joy and sharing it all with us!
I’m especially looking forward to the “No More Strangers” project or website you mentioned for our gay loved ones. I have a gay son who is a very bright light in my life. I feel that our gay children and youth are among the most innocent neglected members of our church, still fed with dark psychological rhetoric. If change really is possible or needed, the church’s approach or lack thereof has been very counter-productive.
Thanks so much to you and your dear family for bring light where there has been much darkness. Sincerely, Kathleen
See https://www.fromthestripclubtothetemple.com
John, I am taking a moment to share something with you. I hope you take a moment to acknowledge my efforts. Am I ‘laying a guilt trip on you’? Perhaps, but I am most confident that you truly *will enjoy* this TED presentation. The focus (for me) wasn’t about LGBT issues, but a metaphor for all our lives and journeys in life with regard to a multiplicity of ‘complicated’ issues and situations (and yours came to mind).
– Paul
iO Tillett Wright: Fifty shades of gay
https://www.ted.com/talks/io_tillett_wright_fifty_shades_of_gay.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2013-02-02&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email
This was hard to listen to at times because of the pain and regret you felt, John, but its beautiful moments outshone those. This was a great interview, thank you for your honesty and openness!
One cannot pretend to believe a myth once it has been revealed as such.
I believe it will be a difficult thing to be in such close association with those whose eyes have not yet been opened and who still fully embrace the church narrative. One can go along to get along, thinking that through negotiating the terms of ones involvement in the church some greater good will be accomplished. Again, honesty is sacrificed for what is supposed or thought to be some greater good. It is, in my opinion, a compromise that is extremely difficult and will evaporate in time due to the internal conflict that it will create. Faith is wonderful when supported by the evidences, not lies and concealment. It does not trump honesty and never can.
John and Margie,
Thanks for sharing your life with us.
I went to the Salt Lake Mormon Stories Conference last year to support my husband. The stories shared made such an impact on me. It seems that I have thought of one or the other almost everyday since. Hopefully by their sharing,and my trying to understand I can become a better Mormon. Thanks to all of you that were willing so share something so personal.
And John,thanks to introducing me to people like Terel Givens and reintroducing me to Carolynn Pearson, and more. Such great and loving minds!
John,I will miss the sound of your voice coming from my husband’s office. I wish you the best with your quieter life. Together you and Margie will go on to do new great things.
Best of luck, and as by Catholic friend used to tell me…God Bless.
Jan
This episode has been a real eye opener. Thanks for your candor, brother.
It’s a great time for the Church with John back: progress on the mormonsandgays.com website,
Oliver’s Rod addressed on LDS.org
(https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-oliver-cowdery?lang=eng)
and even the peep stone transalation in the Ensign ( https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/01/great-and-marvelous-are-the-revelations-of-god )
Thanks jpv. Awesome links. Will pass onto my friends and family.
Hi John,
I’ve thought for a while that you continuing to do all those podcasts was going to lead to more pain and suffering because you just weren’t going to get the answers you were looking for. The church is what it is. I do think you realised just in time that it was destroying you and your family relationships. Perhaps you came to realise that finding religious truth is almost impossible, but at least following the Mormon version gets you back your family relationships, and has shown it has a few understanding leaders at the stake/GA levels.
From my own perspective, it’s really hard to find a good alternative to Mormonism once it has become ingrained into your psyche. I like aspects of eastern religions, especially Buddhism, but each sect is at best an approximation of the “truth”. So it’s just this constant open-minded search and maybe that’s ok.
Maybe you’re the smart one John. Maybe approaching Mormonism mainly from the emotional/spiritual perspective, in terms of relationships and personal growth through service, is the key to happiness, and just set to one side the discovery that the historical/doctrinal story is just a fairytale. You’ve seen that for you the institution has some value.
I’m still in that decision process. Thanks for your perspective.
Jim
I think the reason it is hard for many people to find an alternative is because the church so heavily ingrains in people from 3 years old and up that it is the only true church on earth, and all others are false. When you lose faith in the only true church you don’t know what to do, and atheism seems like the only logical possibility. I think if the “one true church” position was not so heavily pushed and ingrained in people it would be easier to find other faiths or even come back some day.
What is the Larson Interview that they keep referring to?
Here’s to Mormon palooza 2015. It will be like burning man but instead let’s burn an empty business suit in effigy. I for one am looking forward to presenting a paper on the relationship between panspermia and Adam-God ;-)
Thanks John for all you do and have done.
https://www.mormonstories.org/mormon-expression-interviews-john-dehlin/
John
It’s obvious from your many statements over the last several years that you know Mormonism is based upon a pack of lies which the LDS Church still actively sponsors by, among other things, sending out 50,000 or so innocent, naive missionaries to spread the lies and actively suppresses and conceals the truth about its history because the Church knows the truth will be devastating to its power and wealth. How you can justify in your own mind aiding and abetting this huge fraud baffles me. Your mental gymnastics would do a pretzel proud. Truth will inevitably suffer, which is really one of the principal legacies of Mormonism. Good luck to you as you reenter fantasyland.
John makes it pretty clear in the podcast that he doesn’t believe objectively in a lot of the claims of the Church. I don’t see any crazy mental gymnastics in the reasoning he has put forth – he has concluded that he feels that the Church experience is spiritually and emotionally nourishing to him and to others, and that that outweighs the negative aspects of the Church.
It’s definitely not a decision that everyone would or should make, but from what I gather, it’s the choice between allowing either his happiness and health, or the truth, to inevitably suffer. It’s not that complicated. It’s a utilitarian approach that should be respected as a rational decision.
Connor, I know you want to be a cheer leader for John and defend him but your comments are not helpful at all. You are not understanding this from others point of view (this is clear from your insensitive comments). A lot of people on here looked to John as an example, and an anchor. This podcast can easily give someone the feeling that John has abandoned all he said before and gone back on what he did. Now I am not saying that is what he did, but you have to realize it is very easy for that to be portrayed from these podcasts. John going back to church is the equivalent of an apostel leaving the church, it would shake a lot of people up. Stop looking at these comments from your opinion and start trying to see how these people feel and why they would post something like that, otherwise you are not being helpful.
@ Tyrion:
I’m sorry if you found my comments insensitive, but I really cannot figure out how you would make that conclusion. Might I add that I have been an avid listener of John’s over the past year, and also looked to him as an example (if not necessarily an anchor)? And that seeing his ability to return to the Church gave me hope that I might somehow be able to overcome my own problems with the Church, and do the same? This was a hopeful message to me. Maybe you should consider that there are many people, avid followers of John’s work, that would also find comments such as Steve’s to be unhelpful. Still, I wouldn’t recommend that Steve just keep his opinions to himself (as you suggested to me). That kind of defeats the purpose of the internet, right?
If anyone was hurt from my comment that it seemed to me that John had some valid, personal reason to return to Church despite all the problems he encountered in the past, I apologize, but I honestly can’t understand why anyone would find that offensive at all.
John, I hope you are able to enjoy some time with your family. You have had a very significant impact on my life and appreciate the time and effort you have given over the years.
I do take issue with one of your statements though. You say to either make the church work or find something else to do. The problem for me is that what I discovered in my faith journey is that I don’t care for faith at all. I don’t crave the emotional/spiritual stuff and so I have no place to go back to in the church. And yet my wife if fully committed and so I truly am stuck in the middle unless I want to totally destroy my life. And the church will continue to treat me as defective (no going to my kids weddings, etc.) even if I do my best to fit in. So maybe if you decide to keep Mormon Stories going you can dedicate it to those of us who are being held hostage to the middle way, not just staying there to try to goad others but truly having no other good choices.
Thanks again for your service.
Eric, I can relate to this. I have 11 children and have only been to 2 of their weddings, BEFORE I answered the first 4 questions as to whether I have faith in and a testimony of … with a no and was refused a TR. There are many things that make my experience very very very hard to stay in the church and BE happy or GO and BE happy. I am NOT the head of my family, my husband is, as per the LDS teachings. I have a generous husband and he does NOT bother me into going BUT he is NOT going have the children NOT go. thus I am stuck in the middle by choice of staying married and with my kids. Not a fun place when the church shows up at the minimum twice a week but weekdays during school as well, I have two seminary students. Anyway, you are NOT alone in this Eric and I do get what you are saying you have trouble with.
Thanks Gail. Yes, very similar feelings. I have always enjoyed life but I know this feeling of being stuck has affected my ability to be joyful and positive around my family. I hope we can find a solution or at least better ways to cope!
Eric,
Thanks so much for the thoughtful email. I totally understand the pain/difficulty of your position, and will continue to do everything that I can to keep helping out where I can.
So sorry for the pain. Hang in there, brother…and let’s collaborate on a podcast series if you’d like.
John
John I’m flattered that you would offer me a chance to collaborate. Not sure what I could contribute but I would certainly be willing to give it a shot. You have my email so feel free to contact me.
Steve commented on 397-399: John Dehlin and Faith Reconstruction.
“How you can justify in your own mind aiding and abetting this huge fraud baffles me.”
I just finished reading a 42 page booklet entitled ‘The First Vision: The Joseph Smith Story’ written by Jim Whitefield (also found on http://www.themormondelusion.com). I’ve read a lot of books on Mormonism, being those adamantly ‘anti-Mormon’, those that are marginally so, and the apologetic ones. After reading this particular booklet, though, which posited very clear and succinct facts to support the FACTS that the Mormon church is, at the very least, not what it claims to be, I came to this conclusion:
After an in depth study of the facts, the only way I could ever justify being an active, participating member of the Mormon church would be to set aside the ample evidences in support of the fact that it was initially based upon a fraud perpetrated by Joseph Smith (and possibly, if not even probably, others as well), and just accept the Mormon church as it is *now*, which could mean that it is a safe and congenial place to associate with the type of people I enjoy associating with, and the moralistic and other aspects of the church in which to spend time in and raise a family, is appealing.
I might also add that while listening to, no doubt, all of the MS podcasts these past years, the impression that I got of John Dehlin on many occasions was that he presents himself as a troubled spirit, or in fact, even a ‘dark’ one. However, regardless of my impressions of JD, I think it’s pretty clear (to me, at least) that he has become exhausted slaying dragons–dragons that will continue to pupate ad infinitum, so he has decided to retire to a safe ‘cave’ and one that he feels at home and happy in.
A long time ago when JD said that he was terminating or turning MS over to someone else to run, I wrote to him and said to ‘let it go gently into the night’. He didn’t take that advise (perhaps because he was incapable, or not ready to do that then). Anyway, just like you can’t put old heads on young shoulders, I think he now realizes that he again has come to somewhat the same juncture in his life, only this time there is more collateral damage, which is unfortunate for some people.
Connor says he doesn’t see any “crazy mental gymnastics” in John’s reasoning. Let me see if I can point out some. If I understand John correctly, he thinks it is highly unlikely that there is a God, but he thinks it is just as unlikely that all of this is just randomness (evolution doesn’t teach randomness”), so he chooses to live his life as if there is a God. Fair enough. John further states that he thinks it is highly unlikely that Jesus lived and was resurrected, but that he considers Jesus to be his personal savior because of many teachings (not all) that John values and have helped him in his life. But this is just a play on words because that is not at all what Christianity means by the term “savior.” John then says that he believes Joseph Smith was a prophet despite the many lies that John acknowledges Joseph told on everything from duping people into paying him money for treasure digging (he never found anything) to the first vision to the angel Moroni to the Golden Plates to the rock in the hat translation of the Book of Mormon to the angelic restoration of the priesthoods to the angel with drawn sword who threatened Joseph with death if he did not practice polygamy to the Book of Abraham to the Kirtland Bank to the Kinderhook Plates and on and on and on. If I understand correctly, John believes that to the extent Joseph did good he was inspired by God to do so. John further states that he sees no evidence that Joseph did anything fraudulently. I call this mental gymnastics. It is beyond me how one who understands that Joseph was a serial liar whose lies all were aimed at increasing his power, position, sexual pleasure and/or wealth could have thought he was in communication with God and was just doing what God commanded. What kind of God is that? Did Joseph really believe that God told him that the Church was to build the mansion house and give Joseph and his posterity a suite of rooms on the upper floor forever and ever? You call it what you want. I call it bat crazy. I hope John can keep his integrity and sanity in the Church.
Steve – You stated, “John further states that he sees no evidence that Joseph did anything fraudulently.”
Can you please show me where I ever said this?
Hi John,
I was referring to comments you made in part 3 of your interview on Mormon Stories. I went back and listened to part of this again. You stated, among other things, that you did not believe there was anything to indicate that the Book of Mormon was a fraud, that the Book of Abraham was inspired and that you believed Joseph was a prophet, using that term loosely to apply to other great men like Buddha and Mohammed and others, who you honored and respected although he was in many respects flawed, sometimes seriously flawed. My take away from this is that if you did not believe the Book of Mormon is a fraud even though it is clearly a 19th century work of fiction that Joseph tried to palm off as ancient sacred scripture and that the Book of Abraham was inspired even though it is a complete fraud and that you honor and respect Joseph, you don’t believe he intended to deceive in any of his lies. If I have misunderstood your views as to whether Joseph committed fraud with respect to any of his numerous lies, I would appreciate it if you could set me straight. Thanks.
Steve, I think the critical thing here is that John has stated that he is in the middle of reconstructing faith. Faith has nothing to do with facts. Let it go my friend!
Certainly John is the last one to need me or anyone else to be his defender but on the flip side of that does he need you to be his inquisitor? I will say a little more, not just on John’s behalf but on behalf of myself and many others who are also stuck in this no man’s land where there doesn’t seem to be any position that satisfies all of our needs. What I hear John saying is that he is at a point right now where something a guy did with a peep stone a couple hundred years ago is less important than letting his boy enjoy a pinewood derby with his buddies without feeling like a freak show because his dad is “one of those guys.” John has made a very public statement that he is changing his approach to Mormonism and at the same time has made it clear that he is not reverting to complete orthodoxy. Reading between the lines it seems obvious to me that that means he is willing to overlook some of Joseph Smith’s more unsavory characteristics and instead focus on some of the positive things that have come out of the church, at least for the moment. John, forgive me if I have misstated anything on your part but this reflects some of my own thinking as well.
John, I love this site and what it has done for me in the past six months. I just want you to know I think you’re a wonderful person and I’ll keep sending my monthly donation!
The loss of a little integrity is small potatoes in regards to quelling the deeper despairs of the soul.
I, like you, have a hard time understanding why discarding illusions and standing as one’s own true Sun as Karl Marx articulated, is perceived by some a non-fulfilling condition. Staying with Marx, Religion, our Mormon church brings an illusory happiness, and to give up this illusion is a call to give up the condition that requires illusions. In our depressed communities across this country, one can always find an abundance of churches and bars, both fulfilling the exact same need.
One thing Mormon Stories helped with is to expose or “pluck the flowers from the chain” of religion, “not so that we will bear the chain without consolation, but so that we shall throw off the chain and cull the living flower”. It seems a hard step, that last one, to throw off the chain because it is such a comforting illusory blanket in this modern society which, as our religion’s spritual fruit always reminds us, seems scary, unpredictable, evil, fallen, wicked, and unworthy. So off we go to quell this vale of tears to which religion is the halo, looking, as it is uniquely built into our psyche to accept bad explanation over no explanation, and acceptance and community over solitude. I personally cannot abide the dissonant buzz that comes with two dichotomous thoughts in my head. Some people are okay with it. Maybe John is one of them, and can live a dichotomous philosophy within a philosophy (only true and living church? BoM most correct book?).
It truly is not truth and light. It is doubt and darkness. It hurts people, it promotes un-truths, distorts impugns reality. Nobody ever said non-belief would be easy in our belief soaked and geared psyches, but instead of looking at disaffection as the end and “where’s my happiness reward star”, maybe when we make the herculean step of truly throwing off the illusory chain, then that’s truly only the start, the start of the culling of the living flower.
Welcome back bro! I am one of the atheists who remains in the pews out of devotion to my wife. While I can be cordial with other members, I just can’t stand paying my dues (tithing) or allegiance (temple recommend interviews) to an organization based on a mythological history we are expected to tell people we “know” is true when I know it isn’t. I wish you were in my ward. It would actually give me a reason to hang around after sacrament meeting to listen to your commentary. I am too annoyed to sit there and would feel too despised to comment during the lessons when I know my contribution would be unwelcome. I haven’t had to deal with the toughest mormon encounters in my future: the baptism of my children, dealing with their indoctrination, respectfully educating them before they make a choice about a mission, and possibly having to sit out their weddings. As you indicated you are now dealing with some of those issues, I am most interested in any way you could expound on what you are doing – intending to do. As of the moment, I plan to turn the baptisms over to my father-in-law, though my bishops have been so laid back they will probably let me do without interviewing me. I’ve heard you have to have a temple recommend for the confirmation though. I would also like to hear how you deal with the daily indoctrination at seminary without affronting your significant other (though it sounds like you have been blessed not to deal with that problem). For the future of your podcast, I am putting a vote in for an interview with Kristine Haglund and Brent Metcalfe. They both had interesting stories and left me wishing, but left me wishing for one of your in-depth interviews. Keep your head up, I have enjoyed your journey by proxy!
John,
Appreciate the latest podcast. I’ve listened to others in the past and they have been a boon to my faith, reconciled many questions I had. Felt I was in good company with open-minded, thoughtful members of the Church. Glad to hear your journey has taken you back to the faith. Will be staying tuned, I appreciate your sincerity and efforts.
John, the fact that you wish to remain a cultural Mormon is not something I have a problem with, but the fact that you refused to air the Phillips interview because it would make your leadership uncomfortable (or threaten your church membership) shows a bit of duplicity on your part don’t you think. Facts should never be hidden regardless of how uncomfortable it makes someone. If calling something “sacred” in religion is all one needs to do to make it taboo to expose then I can imagine allot of Catholic priest who would have loved to call thier counseling of young boys something that was “very sacred”.
John,
Your insights and experience were very interesting to listen to. You were honest and open about very personal things as you walked us all through your experiences. It’s not often in the church that we are given the opportunity to listen to someone share their doubts and faith crisis this openly and I believe it’s very helpful to others. It allows us to hear your experience and reflect for ourselves on our own journey. My impression is you have a great desire to embrace the concepts of love, service, compassion and charity toward others and you’ve recognized you can find those in the church despite questions about the historical accuracy/truth of the restoration and certain doctrinal issues. You are choosing to embrace the positive aspects of the church and how those are helping you personally make life choices and feel happy and fulfilled. You seem to be embracing a very open, loving concept of religious faith and spirituality in whatever form that takes someone. Some may feel that their efforts to do this need to happen outside of the church due to various reasons and you seem supportive and validate that, which emulates the love that you talk about. A big part of someone’s decision has to do with their community and family involvement in the church and the realization that leaving the church will cause estrangement and hurt. These are difficult decisions to make. As someone searching for healthy, positive spiritual answers and leaning outside the church after 45 years of being a member I appreciate your experience and the things you have learned along your journey. I wish you and your family the best and hope that you are able to continue your podcasts in a way that feels fulfilling to you. I have enjoyed listening to them as I work my way through my faith transition.
John,
Thanks for what I perceive to be a heartfelt and open discussion about your journey. I appreciate what you have done and hope you find fulfillment and peace in your decision.
I do wonder why you chose to return to Mormonism when you felt that the church has misrepresented itself in so many ways. I understand that you have faith in God, and feel that Christ has helped you on your journey, but it seems that the rest of your testimony is not a typical one. Why did you choose to return to Mormonism instead of joining a faith community where your theological and doctrinal beliefs are more accepted?
John and Sarah: Thank you both for these interviews. I don’t think anyone realizes how many Mormons are in similar positions as John’s, tenuously balancing our Mormon lives against our minds. After listening to most of the interview, I say again and again, thank you, John, for what groundwork you have laid. My balancing act is very closeted, or at least I feel like I’m in a closet, hiding from the real truths. I let in little bits of sunlight into the closet when I try to convince my family members of little bits of truth that come up during our religious discussions. But, if I could really choose, probably like so many others, I’d just abandon the whole religion in favor of another kind. I am not at all as openly honest with my local leaders and that is a very disquieting position, but John’s journey seems at least as rough. I hope to be at peace some day with it. Thank you both again!
John,
I enjoyed listening to your story and I appreciate all the interviews you have done over the years. I was in Sunday school yesterday and we read a passage from D&C 11 and I was wondering if you had read this recently. To me it sounds like maybe you recognized that for you this “Spirit” is easier to hold onto in the church than out.
12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.
13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my Spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy;