Welcome and Panelist Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts or co hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is super good to be with you. It is October 6, 2022 and we are here by popular demand. According to Gerardo, there's been a lot of people asking for us at Mormon Stories Podcast to do a review of General Conference. We just had the October 2022 General Conference. It was recently held again in downtown Salt la. And I wouldn't say it was one of the most scandalous general conferences of all time. I think it may have actually been one of the most benign general conference talks of all time. We can get into that. But we are here to kind of give it a review. And Gerardo is the producer on this episode. Gerardo is the one that kind of came to me and said we should do this. And Gerardo has done the prep work, including pulling out kind of some of the main topics and the video excerpts. So Gerardo Sumano, my compadre, welcome. Welcome back to Mormon Stories. Thanks for being here.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:04] Thanks, John. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] Anything you want to say about why you wanted to do this?

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:08] Yeah, well, I feel like every General Conference I get messages from people like, when are you going to do a review on Mormon stories for General Conference? And we've, I don't think ever in the history of Mormon stories have we covered General Conference. I thought, well, if we're going to do it, we can do it shorter, we can do it concise, we can just do it different that other people have done it in the past where like we just show clips of maybe the most important parts or the highlights. You know, it was interesting that what I consider the highlights or what I was seeing in social media as the highlights ended up being what Peggy Fletcher Stack from Salt Lake Tribune also considered highlights. I hadn't seen her article until you started listing them. And then I was like, oh, I included everything.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] So nice.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:51] Yeah, I'm excited to get into it.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] All right, well, we always appreciate what you do. The popularity of Mormon Stories is so much due to your support over the past couple years. So thank you.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:02] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] And if that weren't enough, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone else, including non binary individuals, we also have in the studio Samantha Shelley. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:12] Oh, hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Samantha is maybe best known to many of you as one of the co hosts along with Tanner Gilliland of Zelf on the Shelf YouTube channel. She also is a life coach at what website? Samanthashellycoaching.com that's s h e l l e y right. But she's also been a guest on Mormon Stories many times and she's been a co host. She's kind of a go to co host these days. Samantha, welcome.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:38] Thank you. Honored to be back.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] How does it feel?

Samantha Shelley [00:02:40] Good. I didn't realize you guys hadn't done a review of conference before. Yeah, that seems shocking.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] I'm not sure we have. Yeah. So that's kind of fun. Anyway, great to have you, Samantha, as always. And speaking of reviews of General Conference, if any of you know, one of the new traditions that's emerged in the past few general conferences and or years is that the Britvengers, the amazing progressive and post Mormon YouTubers, have started doing a semiannual review of General Conference. And this general conference was no exception. And we want to welcome Nemo the Mormon from the YouTube channel, Nemo the Mormon here. Hey, Nemo.

Nemo [00:03:19] Hi. How you doing?

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Yeah, you, you. You actually did a full review of every session and you sent me a screenshot of the food and the snacks that you bought almost like you were in a bunker. Is that right?

Nemo [00:03:30] Yeah, I. I dug. I dug in hard. I had to get a lot of sugar into my system to get through that. And I think this is another first because it's gonna be the first time Mormon stories is more concise than me.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] That's awesome, Nemo. Yeah. Any. Anything you want to share? Just about. Do you want to describe for our audience kind of what you did and. And kind of what the reception was?

Nemo [00:03:54] So I sit and watch the conference session live in like at Mountain Daylight Time. I'll sit and make all my notes and then 15 minutes after it ends, I'll bring a guest on and we'll talk about it. We'll react live. We'll talk about what we heard, what we didn't hear, and we'll do some live analysis. And I do that for every single session, which meant that I stayed up until 4am UK time to catch the Saturday evening session. I do a running tally, a running tally of something called Jesus, Joe or Russell, which is keeping a tally of who's quoted more. Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith or Russell M. Nelson. And if you want, I can tell you the outcome of that.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] I mean, let's just do it while we're on it. Who won?

Nemo [00:04:35] Jesus and Joe. Jesus and Russell. Sorry. Tied to was in a meager third place, but they tied 40 mentioned, 40 quotes each.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] Okay, so let me just make sure I get that, get that straight. So Joseph Smith and Russell Nelson were quoted the same and the most Jesus Jesus and Russell. Oh, so Jesus and Russell tied.

Nemo [00:04:57] Yeah.

David Dehlin [00:04:57] Okay.

Nemo [00:04:58] You would expect Jesus to be ahead, but no.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] Jesus and Russell tied. Joseph came in a distant second.

David Dehlin [00:05:03] Is that right?

Nemo [00:05:04] Second. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] Okay, well, that's. I would say that might be progress.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:09] Hard to say.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Okay, well, cool. Well, Nemo, we're so glad to have you. You're already a legend and you're just kind of a newbie, but not really. What's that?

Nemo [00:05:20] It's a pleasure to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] Yeah. Yeah. It's good to have you. And Mormon Stories viewers and guests, we have a really, really big surprise because my father, David Joel Dehlin, is in the house. Hey, David Joel Dehlin.

David Dehlin [00:05:33] Hey. Hey. How are you guys?

John Dehlin [00:05:35] Welcome.

David Dehlin [00:05:36] It's nice to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] So, dad, how.

David Dehlin [00:05:39] How.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Tell us how old you are, if you don't mind sharing.

David Dehlin [00:05:41] 88, going on 90.

John Dehlin [00:05:43] And what is your. What is your status with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day?

David Dehlin [00:05:47] I'm an active member of the church.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] You're an active member of the church. Would you say you're a believing member of the church? Yeah.

David Dehlin [00:05:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] Are you going to get in trouble for being on Mormon Stories?

David Dehlin [00:05:56] Well, we'll see.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] Really quickly. What, what, what do you think about Mormon Stories? Like, I'm going to put you on

David Dehlin [00:06:02] the spot, like, well, proud of your talents as a. As an interviewer, John, you have exceptional talent. You do a wonderful job. I don't always agree with the substance of what you do, but I'm proud of you for what you're doing, and I support you 100%.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] Well, thanks, Dad. I love you,

Guest [00:06:28] too.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] I like it that we have a family where we can talk openly and disagree, but, like, in some ways, to be proud of each other.

David Dehlin [00:06:35] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] I kind of love that.

David Dehlin [00:06:36] You bet.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] And I've. You. You were actually a witness at my disciplinary council.

David Dehlin [00:06:40] I certainly was.

John Dehlin [00:06:42] And, yeah, you. You've always. One of my favorite things in the past 18 years of Mormon Stories is getting a call from you where you've listened to an episode and you give me feedback and you say, this is what I loved and this is what I didn't like. And I wish you would change this. Even if you've got. Especially if you have criticisms. That shows me a sign of respect that you would listen and care enough to give feedback.

David Dehlin [00:07:04] You bet.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] And that means a lot to his son. And I've always really been grateful that I felt that you were proud of

David Dehlin [00:07:11] me, even though you've always been a good son, John.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] All right, well, I love you, dad. Thanks for joining us Love you, too. Are you going to chime in or are you just going to be a silent.

David Dehlin [00:07:19] I'll sit here and watch for a while and then make that decision.

John Dehlin [00:07:22] What if you have to go to the bathroom? What are you going to do?

David Dehlin [00:07:24] Hold up two fingers or one?

John Dehlin [00:07:28] All right, dad, welcome. We're glad to have you. All right, so we are going to be doing a review, and I think Gerardo is going to kind of lead us in this one. But I am. You know, Samantha and I and Nemo and. And my dad are going to just jump in also. We want to. We want to thank. Maven's moderating the chats today. So we want to thank Maven and we want to welcome our live Stream Facebook and YouTube audience. Please feel free to comment on the live stream. If any of you want to share your conference experiences. I'll do my best to kind of pause the discussion and read people's comments. That might make things a little bit longer, but it's always fun. All right, so, Gerardo, where should we go?

Elder Oaks Opens Conference: Charitable Giving Claims

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:07] Sure. We can start with. So it seemed like Elder Oaks started with general opening general conference on Saturday morning. And he said that he was assigned by President Nelson to start with the first talk. And I thought it was really interesting what his talk was, especially when you compare it to other statements by other leaders like Bednar. And, you know, I think we should listen to what. What Elder Oak said and then we can comment on it.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] So this is like. This is the. The first talk given.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] In general conference.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:42] And we're just gonna hear the first few minutes.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:46] All right.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] All right. Well, here's Elder Oaks from the kickoff of the October 2022 General Conference.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:08:56] Brothers and sisters, our beloved president Russell M. Nelson will address us later in this session.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:05] He's asked me to be the first speaker.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:09] My subject today concerns what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

Video Clip 1 [00:09:15] and its members give and do for the poor and distressed.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:22] I will also speak of similar giving by other good people. Giving to those in need is a

Video Clip 1 [00:09:29] principle in all Abrahamic religions and in others as well.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:35] A few months ago, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints reported for the first time the extent of our humanitarian work worldwide. Our 2021 expenditures for those in need in 188 countries worldwide was 906 million.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Almost a billion dollars. Okay, well, that's pretty strong. It's like, hey, we give a billion dollars a year in charity. We're pretty cool.

David Dehlin [00:10:12] Gerardo.

Guest [00:10:13] What?

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Is this just a Kudos?

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:15] Basically, Yeah. I Mean, I think it's both. Right. I think we covered it a little bit with. When Elder Bednar did the press conference. Something that was really interesting is that he said that as a church of Christ, it's part of, it's a principle and kind of part of the doctrine to give to the needy. And that kind of can be contrasted with what Elder Bedner said on the press conference, where Elder Bedner has different perspective. Elder Bedner said, as a church we're in, like, our primary goal is to save souls. And kind of like giving to the needy is secondary, which we critiqued. Kind of like that perspective that he gave. I thought it was interesting, you know, to compare it to what Elder Oaks just said. And then, yeah, I mean, it seemed like they're giving a lot more than they used to. If you go to the next. Well, I wish I had put it the next slide, but go forward. There was. We can, we can go cover that one. He did say almost a billion dollars. And I think that caught my attention because in order from 906 million, you still have almost $100 million to get to 1 billion. So it's interesting that he made that jump and he decided to use the word billion. I don't know if it's because, you know, so many people are used to hear 100 billion, 100 billion. The church is worth a hundred billion, you know, or have 100 billion on investments. So he made that leap into mentioning 1 billion. But to put into perspective, if you go to the next slide, it just shows like how much a hundred dollar bills would, you know, represent against a person, just a regular sized person.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] So there's a person with a small stack of bills. That's. That's a million dollars.

David Dehlin [00:12:13] Right, right, right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:14] And most of us, I think lay people would think a million dollars. That's a lot of money. You know, I could do a lot with a million dollars. And then on the next. And in the person on the right, you. They have a stack of $100 million. So just to get perspective of how much $100 million is and how much the church would have to give to actually get to 1 billion. So I just thought it was interesting to get to that. If you go one more slide. So we know in 2014 there was a leak that said that there was that general Authorities are paid $120,000 a year. It's probably today is more than that. Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] And we don't. That probably doesn't apply to apostles. That was kind of, of.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:57] Well, the, the. I read the article and the, the person from the church who's, you know, spoke to the news, he said that everyone, apostles and seventies, they all receive the same money. I don't know. That's what they say. Who knows? But that's.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] But we don't know if they're given bonuses.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:14] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Signing bonuses. We don't know what expenses.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] What, what other benefits they get.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:20] And year to year increases too.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Yeah. So that's until they're transparent. They could be paying them any amount of money and we just don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:27] Yeah, yeah. Just basing on that amount, like it would take 50 years for the entire quorum of the 15th, you know, the 12 apostles and the first presidency to give out their entire living allowance for 50 years in order to make the 94 million that oaks would need to, you know, to get to the 1 billion that he mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] So is part of your point just that rounding, Rounding up.

David Dehlin [00:13:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] To skip 100 million.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] That 100 million could help a whole lot of people.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:01] Yeah, that's my point. That's my point.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:04] Yeah. And especially when you consider his, his own statement from 2016, if you go to slides, you'll see like a Desert News. Yeah, that Desert News article where in 2016, he, he said in a press conference that the church's entire welfare and humanitarian efforts average 40 million per year. You know, so in 2016, the church was giving and before they were giving around 40 million. And then he even rounded out, he said that the church had given a total of 1.2 billion over the past 30 years. So he's quoted saying that, you know, during a 30 year period, the church give $1.2 billion anyway, so just that that shows, you know, 40 million, like 100 million rounding up 900 to 1 billion. It's a little bit of a leap, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] Is that this, is that this slide right here?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:04] 1.2 billion over the past 30 years is about $40 million a year.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] Okay. Do we have, can we.

David Dehlin [00:15:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] Do you want to incorporate other, other comments?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:16] You can. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:17] Okay. Samantha, please. Do you have any. Do you have anything you want to share so far?

Samantha Shelley [00:15:23] Well, I mean, I don't necessarily have a problem with organizations talking about what they've given to help people. In theory, it might inspire people to, you know, give more to the poor, but it does just feel like PR101. Like, we know that the church spent the same amount on humanitarian work for 30 years as it did building City Creek Mall. We know that they give less of a percentage of their income to humanitarian work than Walmart and you know, these other multi billion dollar companies, like you can't be a multi billion dollar company and not give at least this much. I'm also curious to know because I'm all about effective altruism. I'm curious to know what, what that money went to, how much the numbers potentially could have been fudged because I don't have a lot of, you know, confidence in them self reporting. So would love to see a breakdown of how that money was spent.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] Now isn't there a report like called the Widow's Mite that circled around Reddit that talks about how it's been theorized that that money isn't cash given, but instead they found a way to estimate volunteer labor of the members and to put a dollar sign value to the aggregate volunteer efforts of the members over a year. And, and that that number could be drastically inflated with those types of like management consulting calculations. That actually isn't them dipping into their war, their hundreds of billions of dollar kind of war chest. Am I getting that wrong?

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:55] That's a report that, you know, some people claim.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Okay, you didn't mention that though. We've mentioned it before, so I'm curious.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:02] Yeah, I tried to tend to just go with whatever they tell us. You know, if they say they gave 900 million, let's believe them. Okay, I get, I did get upset that he made the leap to 1 billion. Okay, yeah, that's my take. But yeah, the widows. My report is out there if anyone wants to check it out.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] Okay, we'll have, we'll make sure to include that in the show notes. Ne Nemo. Do we, do we want to. Do we want to give you a chance to kind of jump in?

Nemo [00:17:32] I mean that's not the first time the church has made a leap to a slightly higher number thinking it will make things look better. We only have to point to the gospel topic essay and talking about Helen Markimbell being several months shy of her 15th birthday to see that the church will try and jump to a larger number if they think it's going to help them. That aside, I mean if you go there's a slide on there where I break down what those numbers actually mean in real terms. If you take the church also at face value on the number of members they have. If we want to throw that up.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] Okay, here it is. Is this it?

Nemo [00:18:05] Remember breakdown showing on my screen. I've got the figures here, so that's fine.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:10] There we go.

Nemo [00:18:11] There we go. Thank You. So, yeah, the church has 16 million members. If we take that at face value, you divide 994 million. So it should be 906 million. That's a typo. But the numbers do add up to 906. So you divide 906 million by 16 million members, you get $56.625 per member for that year. That's how much charitable work was done with members. Now, I would. I guarantee you, a lot of members will look at their tithing receipts and think, I paid more than that in tithing. So where's it go? As for the hours, 6.8 million hours given by members, you times that by 60 to get the number of minutes, and then you divide it by 16 million members, you get 25.5 minutes per member per year. So it's not a great deal. It sounds huge. But if you break it down to the member level, it's not a massive amount.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Okay. All right, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:05] It also seems worth mentioning that. Was it Jesus or was it just in the Bible, it says, when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet as the hypocrites do, so that they may be honored by men. That feels relevant that this was the opening talk.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Dehlin [00:19:21] And.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] And, dad, you can. You can answer this or not. I'm. I'm on record talking about you on the podcast a little bit. And one of the things I've said about you is that your example of Christianity in my life was that charity is. Is all it's about. It's all about Christlike service. Like, that's the entire gospel. And so on the one hand, I think, you know, we don't want to be stereotypical post Mormons where we're just. We can't say a good thing about the church. Like, with the church is given 40 million, that's awesome. And if they're given 100 million, that's awesome. And IF they're given 900 million, that's awesome. Like, on the one hand, we can say, hey, good charity, I guess. On the other hand, you know, is it fair to ask? Is it enough? And is it fair to even ask what Samantha asked, which is, why is the church even opening its general conference by kind of boasting about its charitable service? Do you have a thought about that? And we're not asking you to bash on the church, just to be clear.

David Dehlin [00:20:23] Well, I don't understand why it was the opening session of conference, but I'm sure the church. The church, throughout its history has been persecuted and people and individual Organizations that's been persecuted has to, in a sense, stand up for itself, has to lash out at some point in time to stand up for itself. And perhaps that's what the church is doing here. It's just, it's. It's leading with a left jab and a right cross.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] Okay, and. And do you think it's against Christ's teachings to kind of boast about your.

David Dehlin [00:21:08] Your service? Of course it is. Samantha. Was that right? It was right on point.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] Okay.

David Dehlin [00:21:14] Yeah, it is. But like I say, it's. It's probably their left hook and right cross to just protect itself.

Nemo [00:21:25] I think maybe a good middle ground would possibly be the idea that what they could come up and say is we've been criticized in the past for not being open enough with our finances or with what we spend and how we spend it. So we've produced a report on our charitable spending and that is available here. So that way they're not seen to be getting up and boasting the number, but they are getting up and standing up for themselves. As. As your dad said, they're standing up for themselves and they're putting that information out there and saying, no, actually, we do do this, but it's. Maybe it would come across in a slightly different way, perhaps.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:57] Yeah.

David Dehlin [00:21:58] Well, I think that's really an excellent point.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:01] One thing that made me. Oh, sorry. One thing that made me uncomfortable was Elder Oaks, just the way he was talking about the report and saying that this is the first time the church has ever created a report and talking about, you know, the church, one of the principles of the gospel is to give to the needy and, you know, welfare and all this. He made it sound like the church has always been giving like this and just hasn't been reporting it in reality. We know that, you know, he. He's quoted into that just a few years ago saying that it was way less. You know, it was only 40 million what the church was giving. So making it sound like, oh, the church is always giving this much, or we just haven't reported on it is a little bit misleading and made me a little bit uncomfortable.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:56] But yeah, it was also only how many years ago was it where the general public found out how much money the LDS Church had? I mean, that was pretty recent. Which also feels relevant, you know, in looking at this as a PR move, because again, like all these companies like Amazon, Walmart, all these multibillion dollar companies that are doing enormous damage to the earth and people really, like, they all do this, they all donate that kind of percentage of their income to charity. It's just what you got to do.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] Yeah, and that's. That's a point I was going to bring up, Samantha, is why. Why is this changed in the past few years? It's clearly because David Nielsen of Ensign Peak was courageous enough as a whistleblower to show that the Church had a hundred hundreds of billions of dollars of assets in cash, real estate, stocks, bonds, and. And then the Church has been clubbed over the head for a few years, but by how wealthy it is and how it's only using that money, according to the evidence, to build a consumer shopping mall and bail out a failed insurance company. And there's no evidence that over the 30 or plus years that Ensign Peak has been in existence that they ever used any of that 100/plus billion dollars for charitable purposes. So I think it's fair to say, you know, what are the. Do they have altruistic motives here? Why is it they kind of got caught with their hand in the cookie jar before they started ramping it up from 40 million to. To a billion a year? Samantha. And then Samantha. Nemo. And then dad. Okay, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:32] Also, the Church pours far more money into industries that are destroying the Earth and therefore harming people and, you know, like bringing about the end of our planet as we know it. Just like these other industries, you know, like Amazon, Walmart. So it's, you know, is that offset by their charitable contributions? I doubt it. Like, the Church is an enormous financer of, like, the cattle industry, Big pharma, all kinds of industries that are doing a lot of harm to people. So I would like to also see their investment portfolio to be, you know, more planet friendly, more human friendly.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] That's fair. Nemo, you go next.

Nemo [00:25:12] Yeah, I mean, we did get a talk from Bishop Cor of the Presiding Bishopric talking about being good stewards of the Earth and stuff. So if he can then get that in his position as Presiding Bishopric, he does have some financial responsibility. So you would hope that would maybe bleed over then into the Church's investment decisions. But what I was going to say was that on the point of effective altruism, you look at people like Will McCaskill and others who kind of look at the ways that we can do charitable giving most effectively. And one of the most effective ways you can do charitable good in your life is to get big organizations to do good with their money because they've got more money than you will ever have. And so I'm. If the public pressure around Enzyme Peak is what's caused the church to ramp up in charitable donations. If that's what this 906 million represents, is a ramping up in their charitable giving. And if some of that's come from public pressure, then good. I think that public pressure has done its job and it could continue to do its job. Because if the church feels scrutinized to do more, I don't really care what their motives are, as long as they are doing more charitable work, if it is truly charitable work they're doing. And that's, that's good.

Ensign Peak Fund and Church Finances

John Dehlin [00:26:18] And, and while we're on it, let's, I think this slide. I'm going to go to you, dad, in just one second, but let's go to the slide. Does this slide kind of visually show what we're talking about? Nemo or Gerardo? Do either of you want to comment on this slide?

David Dehlin [00:26:29] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:30] Well, I mean, it does show the 40 million, the $40 million that Hinckley mentioned that around 2000, I believe, 2005, maybe earlier, that he was around that amount. And then we have another confirmation of Oaks around 2016 that it was around $40 million, what the church was giving. So, yeah, that. And then the red on the chart represents the NSAID pink fund of the information we have and how we went from $40 billion in 2012 to 100 billion in 2019. And then, you know, you have the $900 million in donations in 2021 that the church is claiming against the $100 billion fund.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] And for those who can't see the visual difference, Gerardo, just explain that to the listeners what the visual difference is.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:24] Yeah, I mean, it's huge. It's is like less than, you know, like 1%.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:33] Of, of, of the, of just that Ensign Peak Fund. That is the only one we know about, you know, but we know that they might have other funds.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] Yeah. And so, Dad, I want to get you in here, but I, but I. But I want to start by just while we're on it, asking you if it's true that we have hundreds of billions of dollars in assets. You know, if you look at that chart and the difference between what our assets are, what our income is and what we're giving, even if we're giving 900 million, is it fair to ask, are we giving enough?

David Dehlin [00:28:06] I think that's always a fair question.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] Yeah.

David Dehlin [00:28:09] I don't think here you can ever give enough. I will say this though. Having just come from war torn Florida, where the whole state was ripped apart by a ferocious hurricane, the first trucks on the Scene were wasn't Red Cross, it wasn't United nations, it wasn't anybody else. It was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Their trucks were first on the scene. I. I will say that.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] From what you saw, are you saying in Palm coast or where, where, where were you seeing those trucks?

David Dehlin [00:28:45] Down in, in Lakeland, Florida. Where, where the, where the hurricane hit.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Okay. All right, that's good.

Speaker G [00:28:53] All right.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] Was that the main comment you wanted to make, dad, or was there. Was there other.

David Dehlin [00:28:57] That's the main point. Okay. Orlando was just beat to death and in our. And our trucks were there, for whatever it's worth.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] So kudos to the church. Nemo, did you want to jump in?

Nemo [00:29:08] Yeah, I was just going to say in regards to the hundred billion, if you're struggling to get your head around these numbers, I always recommend people go on a website called Mormon Billions, which helps you visualize the size of the sum because these numbers can very easily become meaningless and lose all sense of scale because they're just so large. So that's a website that's worth checking out.

For the Strength of Youth Pamphlet Revisions

David Dehlin [00:29:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] All right, well, I think we've covered this topic. I think. Let's go ahead and switch to the next topic now. Does anyone to give a history, a brief history of the for the Strength of the Youth pamphlet or. Or should I. Is anyone ready to do that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:46] You can. You can do it.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] All right, well. What. So for several decades there's been a pamphlet available to youth called for the Strength of the Youth. I'm sure it's gone through revisions over time, but I think it's famous for saying things like don't have multiple earring piercings if you're a woman, don't do anything romantically that would arouse the passions. Dating, you know, when you're dating, probably it probably 16 years. Yeah. Don't. Don't date till you're 16. Women dress modestly. Any of you else want to throw in your memories of what. What for the Strength of the Youth pamphlet meant to you growing up?

Samantha Shelley [00:30:22] Don't go out with curlers in your hair. Women don't dress like men.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:27] Some classics from old pamphlets.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:29] Tattoos. Did you already mention that?

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Didn't mention tattoos?

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:32] Yeah, no tattoos.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] Okay.

Nemo [00:30:35] Music.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:36] Yeah, yeah. Music, dancing.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Okay. Music, dancing. What about.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:41] I have a table of contents in one of the slides.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] Oh, that's going to talk about that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Okay, so the point is, is one of the big announcements was they made a major change to the for the Strength of the Youth pamphlet. And I'll give A shout out to Dr. Julie Hanks because she leaked some of these summary points just a few days before. And I don't know where she got it, but she did leak some of these changes before the. The actual announcement was made.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:05] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] But. But let's go ahead and should we go to the video or.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:09] I did want to say that there. There has been a For the Strength of Youth pamphlet since I, if I understand right, the 60s, there was one in. During the 60s, there was one in the 90s, and then in the early 2000s was when the, like the one we were using was released. And then just this, just new one from 2022. So in earlier versions, they were very similar to the 2000 version, you know, very. I looked them up. I didn't include screenshots, but very similar table of contents, very similar messages. In the 90s, you had more things like Samantha said, like women, you can't. Like, women shouldn't dress manly. They should dress, you know, like, feminine and stuff like that that the 2000 version didn't include. But my. That's my understanding. But anyway, and one thing we didn't

John Dehlin [00:32:05] mention is what it historically said about LGBT people. Did it?

Speaker H [00:32:09] Is that.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] Is that worth mentioning?

Nemo [00:32:11] Yeah, it's.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:11] So from what it said about homosexuality in the 90s version, it softened in 2020 a little bit, and now it's a lot better.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] But. But historically, what types of things did

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:22] it say that it was. Was an abomination. So that types of words, very similar to the Miracle of Forgive Forgiveness was the wording on the for the Strength of Youth pamphlet.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Okay, got it. All right, so now should we jump to the video clip? Is this. Is that next.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Is that Uchtdorf?

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:42] This is Uchdorf announcing the for the Strength of Youth.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Is it. Is it safe to say that, like, we haven't been hearing a lot from Uchtdorf since he was demoted from the first presidency when Elder President Nelson took over and was replaced with down at Jokes. Is it safe to say that maybe this was a special project given Torf and that's why he was the one announcing it?

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:02] Could be, yeah. I was listening to the talk of Elder Uchdorf last night, and my husband served in Germany, so he's heard all kinds of stories about Elder Oakdorf and stuff. And he said it's so interesting to hear how different Elder Uchtdorf just sounds compared to other apostles or even Russell M. Nelson. Like he just focused on Jesus and your relationship with Jesus and not rules. And we're going to hear it, but just so not even mentioned of mentioning of covenants. From what I remember, you know that Russell M. Nelson likes to talk a lot about the covenant path and the covenants to do with God and keeping the covenants. And it's just more about your relationship with Jesus and you know, is it very different. But we're going to hear it.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] Nemo, were you going to say something really quick?

Nemo [00:33:50] Yeah, I was going to say that basically he went through listing all the things, nice things that Jesus would say to you if he were there. And he presents Jesus as this very loving figure. And then the. My only other opinion really is he is the only apostle that could have given this talk. I think he's the only one of them that you could take this from credibly because it's in his wheelhouse to soften these things and make them less strict, less rigid, less pharisaical, less rules focused, which is exactly what this new pamphlet is. And that's very much the Uchtdorf approach.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] Really quickly, Dad, I saw you nodding when Gerardo was talking about Uchtdorf. Do you. Do you have feelings about Uchtdorf as his vibe?

David Dehlin [00:34:27] Oh, yeah, there's no, I don't. I don't think there's anybody. I don't recall in many, many years in the church somebody is more Christ like than Uchtdorf and

John Dehlin [00:34:43] I don't want

David Dehlin [00:34:44] to speak evil of the Lord tonight, so I won't say any more than anything more than that. But no, he's definitely been missed.

Speaker I [00:34:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:53] So you're an Oakdorf fan, dad?

David Dehlin [00:34:54] Absolutely.

clip [00:34:55] All right.

John Dehlin [00:34:56] Have to have that be on the record that my dad, David Joel Dehlin, is a fan of Dieter Uchtdorf, Elder Uchtdorf. Okay, well, let's jump to the video and let's see. Let's hear it from Uchtdorf's own.

Speaker I [00:35:11] To help you find the way and to help you make Christ's doctrine the guiding influence in your life, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has prepared a new resource, a revised version of for the Strength of youth. For over 50 years, for the Strength of Youth has been a guide for generations of Latter Day Saints youth. I always keep a copy in my pocket, close to my heart, and I share it with people who are curious about our standards. It has been updated and refreshed to better cope with the challenges and temptations of our day. The new version for the Strength of Youth is now available now today online in 50 different languages and will be a significant help for making choices in your Life. Please embrace it as your own and share it with your friends. This new version of for the Strength of Youth is subtitled A Guide for Making Choices. To be very clear, the best guide you can possibly have for making choices is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the strength of youth. So the purpose for the Strength of Youth is to point you to Him. It teaches you eternal truths of his restored gospel truth about who you are, who hears and what you can accomplish with his strength. It teaches you how to make righteous choices based on those eternal truths. It's also important to know what for the Strength of Youth does not do. It doesn't make decisions for you. It doesn't give you a yes or no about every choice you might ever face. For the Strength of Youth focuses on the foundation for your choices. It focuses on values, principles and doctrine instead of every specific behavior. The Lord through his prophets has always been guiding us in that direction. President Nelson is pleading with, with us to increase our spiritual capacity to receive revelation. He is inviting us to hear him. He is calling us to follow him in higher and holier ways. And we are learning in a similar way every week in Come Follow Me. I suppose the guide could give you long lists of clothes you shouldn't be were words you shouldn't say, and movies you shouldn't watch. But would that really be helpful in a global church? Would such an approach truly prepare you for a lifetime of Christlike living? Joseph Smith said, I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves. And King Benjamin took told his people in the Book of Mormon, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin, for they are diverse ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them. And King Benjamin went on to say, but this much I can tell you. Watch yourselves and your thoughts and your words and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God and continue in the faith of our Lord even unto the end of your lives. Is it wrong to have rules? Of course not. We all need them every day. But is it wrong to focus only on rules instead of focusing on the Savior?

John Dehlin [00:39:23] Okay, so there's so much there. I, I want to begin with something that's kind of structural and, and it's, it's not about the substance of his talk. It's. It's more about, about this idea that. Sorry, my dad's getting up. Nemo, we're going to cut to you really quickly because my dad's getting up from his chair. So. Nemo, go ahead, Go ahead.

Nemo [00:39:57] That's fine. I can, I can talk all about UCHDORF all day long. It's a well known fact. I've got a bit of a man crush on Ugdorf. So it's not just the German speaking that, you know, it's, it's more than that.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:07] It's the good looks.

Nemo [00:40:09] It's the good looks. It's what I aspire to be. I think I, I think with a lot of leaders of the church, when they talk about Christ, it could be synonymous with the church and therefore us as your leaders. Obedience to Christ, you know, what they're really saying is obedience to us. With Him, I feel like it's different. I feel like I don't know whether it's because he's got that convert energy. I don't know whether, you know, I don't know what it is, but it seems very different. And it seems a lot more authentic when he is talking about Jesus. And so that comes across even when he talks about living a Christlike life or a lifetime of Christ, like living not a lifetime of Christlike service. Because to others, Christlike service sounds like charity work. But in Mormon lingo, Christlike service really means church responsibilities. That's kind of, that's what I get from that.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] Okay, all right.

Nemo [00:41:04] Enough filler for you?

John Dehlin [00:41:05] No, that was great. That wasn't filler. That's always, it's always high quality stuff. My dad just went to go either sit down or rest or a potty break, but we'll see if we get, if we get my dad back. But we're, we're glad he was able to join us for how much he was.

Panel Reacts to New Youth Standards

David Dehlin [00:41:20] All right.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] So structurally, I guess, I guess I wanted to begin by just asking, you know, there's this, there's this idea that when, you know, we're led by prophets. Here's a revelators. And he, he makes this point, you know, would a bunch. Would a huge old list of do not do's, you know, be helpful in a global church?

Samantha Shelley [00:41:47] It's like you tell us you issued them before.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, you know, like, haven't we been a global church since like the 50s? Like, and if God is omniscient and if his prophets are talking to God, like, what couldn't God have said don't give A big old list of do not do's 20, 30, 40 years ago. That was my first question, which, which is I don't want to sound curmudgeonly because I think this, this pamphlet overall is a, it's a big step in the right direction and I think the Church should be rewarded for that. But. But is it fair to say that if we're really led by prophets and revelators, Number one, the church should have gotten this right decades ago. Number two, is this really God, or is this modern day social media people bludgeoning the church with how? Cult, some would say cult. Like these things like your hair length and your number of piercings and tattoos. Is this the church responding to social media, or is this the church, you know, being led by God with prophets? So, Gerardo, I'll let you go first.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Are these fair questions or are they curmudgeonly?

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:51] They're for questions because it's like every person who, you know, were asked to follow these guidelines as if there were commandments and inspired by God, then what? You know, like, they were not inspired by God. And if they were, why. Why are they not there anymore? You know?

John Dehlin [00:43:11] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:12] It. It just bears the question of, you know, does that mean that these were just all man made the whole time and that's why we're getting rid of them?

John Dehlin [00:43:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:24] Obviously, the standards have been man made this whole time, and I think we can celebrate that. There's a loosening of that rigidity. But. And as much as I like, I want to like Ukdolf, you know, he's the most likable of all of them. That was a very whitewashed way to talk about these changes, because the fact of the matter is, again, the church was the one who issued these very rigid standards, and they caused untold damage to especially women and LGBTQ people. Like the. The devastation that the Strength of Youth pamphlet has caused throughout the years, the damage it's done on people's psyches, the damage it did on my psyche. Just as someone who willingly joined the church at 17 and left at 22, the amount that it affected my relationship with my own body, it was massive. And so to just give a tiny

John Dehlin [00:44:16] bit more explanation for how to.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:19] To be. I mean, for example, you know, it would say young women should avoid short, short, short skirts. Skirts that. Shirts that don't cover the stomachs, clothing that doesn't cover the shoulders. And then it'll be like, young men should also be modest. For women, just being told that your body just as it is, is a perversion, essentially is, you know, walking pornography, as leaders have said in the past, to believe that just you and your natural state are walking pornography, it's your. It's objectification. But then it leads to this self objectification that is very hard to shake even once you like, distance yourself from Mormonism that, like, runs very deep in the psyche. Like, that idea that if you have your shoulders out, like, it. The level of, like, self consciousness that it brings about and the level of, like, it makes you at war with your own body, you know, and it makes you feel like, I mean, it can. And I know this is the experience of a lot of women. It makes you feel like you're disgusting or again, like your body is, like, fundamentally wrong. Not to mention the fact that the strength of youth in the past, you know, called homosexuality a perversion. There's so many things that have been so damaging in the past. Issues. So for Uchtdorf to get up and be like, what good would it do to have such rigid standards? You know, it's like, I want to hear some kind of recognition of, like, we have recognized that those standards are harmful. It also plays right into rape culture, you know, this idea that women are responsible for the thoughts of men and that if you're dressed in an immodest way that you are somehow inviting more sexual attention or you're inviting sexual objectification, or you're upping the risk of being raped. Like, all those things have created such a damaging culture. And we are in a moment in history now where people are waking up to rape culture and to, you know, the ways these, like, patriarchal dress standards feed into it. So, of course it's a smart PR move for them to do this. And I'm sure there's also an element of, like, they think if they loosen the rules for youth, maybe youth won't leave as much, which I don't really think is going to be effective. But, yeah, it was like, Uchtdorf was the perfect person to deliver that message. But it also is a little bit insidious to just present it as just like some fun new update that is so, you know, wonderful in all these ways and. And to. Not again. I mean, just like with Russell M. Nelson getting up and being like, abuse is bad. It's like, there's no recognition of, like, the ways that you created a system that deeply harmed people.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Beautiful. So well said. Yeah, he kind of frames it as, well, times have changed and so now God's updating his pamphlet. But I think these changes could have avoided a lot of harm. And I think your point, Samantha, is it probably deserved more of an apology than a rebranding and a whitewashing as just God's. God's ongoing revelation. He's updating this. Gerardo, can. Can you speak to the damage to the LGBTQ community that. That in your opinion, this pamphlet may have contributed to.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] Well, is that real or is that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:15] I think it's real. I think everyone that Reddit, you know, who were LGBT would. Would have thought that there is something wrong with them because it would say things like, go talk to your. If you are experiencing this things, go talk to your leaders. Go talk to your parent. Talk to your parents. You know, these things are a grous. Grousing sin and stuff like that. And you know, just the fact that he had like a special section as highlighting who you are and calling it sin and calling you out for it, telling you that you need to out yourself to your parents in order to be good for God, with God. You know, for some people, it's not safe to come out to their parents. And then this bam flip was encouraging people to do so. And you know what happened? I mean, for me, my parents found out about me, but, you know, and that caused me to go into conversion therapy because they, you know, encouraged me to do that. And. But so many. So many other kids who might have followed this counsel of going to their parents who ended up in conversion therapy and damaging practices. You know, it's like what Samantha was saying, these things that this pamphlet said was. Have caused real harm in people. And to just come out and say, like, oh, this is a new brand, like cute update that we did with new colors to accommodate for a worldwide church. Yeah, it does. It doesn't cut it, but I mean, I'm glad they're doing the change.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] Yeah, too. The name. I want to bring you in, but I'm just gonna ask something direct, Gerardo. Like, you know, we all know that the Miracle Forgiveness book by Spencer W. Kimball is. Has caused untold psychological damage and even death for generations.

Speaker I [00:49:12] Is.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Yeah. And we also know that, you know, over the past 15 to 20 years, there's been a huge spike, even doubling or tripling of the death by suicide rate of Mormon LGBT youth. Is it too much to say that kind of the. The historically, the for the Strength of the Youth pamphlet has kind of been the on ramp to the LGBTQ youth crisis within Mormonism. Is that overstating that or is that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:38] I. I would say so, because that's probably that has been considered for a long time, or at least it was for me and I'm sure many other people, as, you know, an extension to scripture. So whatever it says that said there was considered to be inspired.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] Yeah, yeah. Because it's modern day prophets.

David Dehlin [00:49:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] Instead of like old scripture stuff.

David Dehlin [00:49:57] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] Yeah. Nemo, what's your views really quickly or experience on the damage on the damage of the pamphlet?

Nemo [00:50:04] On the damage, the pamphlet? Well, I think the damage is going to still be done even though they've changed it. So I think you've got a situation here like that old parable of the elephant and the rope. So you tie an elephant up when it's really young by a fairly thin rope and it won't go any further and then you have a full as it grows and grows and grows and you keep tying it and then you end up with a fully grown elephant who's still tied up by a flimsy piece of rope that he could break but just doesn't because that's what he's used to.

Guest [00:50:29] And.

Nemo [00:50:29] And that zeitgeist around things like tattoos, around second piercings, around modesty standards, that's not just going to disappear overnight just because Dorf got up and said, oh, we've got a new pamphlet now. Yeah, youth, if they go and get tattoos now because they feel like they want to for whatever reason, you know, they lost a loved one, they get a tattoo to remind them of that person. They feel spiritually, personally, that it's a good thing to do, as the book encourages that they counsel with themselves about this. They're going to get an old woman in the ward judging them, giving them looks. It's going to be uncomfortable for them, it's going to be difficult. They come in wearing slightly shorter skirt than they would normally because now that's okay. It's seemingly this is all still in the milieu, it's all still in the zeitgeist. So it's not going to go away overnight. And then when it does, because the church hasn't come out and rectified, the old one, said, no, that's no longer the standards.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:16] This is.

Nemo [00:51:17] They've just added rather than kind of switched off the old one. It's going to get to a point where people explain that away by going, oh, they were just extreme members that said you couldn't drink coffee. Or they were just extreme members that said, I don't think coffee's included. But you couldn't have tattoos, you couldn't have piercings. They were just the extreme ones. No one ever really said that. And it we will self gaslight because they haven't set a clear record that this is a change, not just an update or more revelation. I think that's a problem. And then just a question to your point, John, when you said about why did God set These strict rules and standards and then no more of that. The church, the name of the Mormon Church for a long time was homogeneity was all being the same, dressing the same, looking the same, acting the same, talking the same, which you can call it cult behavior, but you can also just call it standard homogeneity and tribalism and group think and people trying to come together. Why does God not seem to want that anymore? We've had a lot of talk about diversity. Now a lot of the gloves are coming off and my question is, why would the God, the Mormon Church, why now? Why 2022 does. Is God not so interested in homogeneity anymore?

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Yeah, beautiful. Coco B. Writes, I remember when it was no longer the standard to have to wear nylons to church. I was told in 2007 that if I was going to be around a general authority, I would have to wear nylons. That's an interesting quote, Samantha. You got big eyed there for a second.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:42] No, I just didn't know about the nylon.

John Dehlin [00:52:44] I remember that.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:45] I remember that also just the number of children whose bodies have been objectified by these standards because remember, this is for the strength of youth. We're not just talking about adult, you know, women or men here. We're talking about children who from a young age were taught like women were taught to see themselves as sexual objects that needed to like shield themselves from, you know, the desires of men. Again, playing into rape culture, playing into pedophile culture.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] Yeah, okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:13] I also wonder, you know what? I think maybe we can discuss really quick, why would they have made the change and right now, go for it. I think it's interesting. I've seen the ex Mormons talk about, you know, how this, Mormon influencers who are in social media who will say to, to be believers that they're not wearing garments anymore or they wear things, you know, that, you know, that they're not wearing their garments, which I could care less if they wear their garments or not. But it's just interesting that they pose themselves as Elliot. You know, they sometimes they post their wedding videos and stuff like that and, and they being Mormon is a big part of, you know, their platform. So it's just so interesting that something that I was, I don't know when I was raised in the church and even when I went through my endowments, that's something that we were taught, you know, like you never take your garments off, you never put them on the floor. It's like, you know, stuff like that and you take care of them because they're sacred. And now you have people who have been in doubt who don't wear them anymore all the time like they used to. And you ha. You see, you know, youth who are not follow you. They were not following the standards, but they were their platforms in social media. They were saying they were believers or Mormons. Like, how much was the church looking at that and saying, okay, we just gotta follow the lead of the influencers and, you know, or the rest of our membership, otherwise we're just, we're just gonna be left behind.

Nemo [00:54:57] And well, it's like, it's like Jeffrey R. Holland said. He said when he was talking to some YSA in Africa, he said that the world is here on a cultural issue and then the church is here and then they come here and then it goes here. And we spend our time doing this. Yeah, you give these hand gestures. Right. So they readily acknowledge that the church is always catching up on cultural issues. And I think you're right, Gerardo. I think this may just be them catching up and realizing they've lost this battle. So they're going to have to capitulate.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] Yeah, but, but they, they go so much effort to say they don't, they don't follow the world's standards. Yeah, but they are. And if it was, and if it was wrong to create a huge list of do nots, if it's wrong to create a huge list of do nots now, it was wrong to do it 30 years ago. Why the change? Because, you know, because Ann Romney, when she's, you know, the wife of the man running for president, she's not wearing her garments when she's going to these presidential balls. You know, I mean, I remember that. Do you guys remember when Mitt Romney was running for president and they would show these photos of Ann and Mitt Romney at a. Some sort of presidential ball and she's not wearing her garments, obviously entertainers, you know, Lindsey Sterling or whoever that are doing all these, like, it's clear that the church is responding to social pressure, which, which if we believe in informed consent or just basic honesty, basic accountability, the basic teachings of repentance that the church taught us. If it was. If it's wrong now, it was wrong, then. If the church had it wrong then, then they need to apologize for all the pain and suffering that it caused. And they, and they're not doing that. So as much as we love Uchtdorf and this is back to your point, Samantha, he's not, he's kind of being the good. I, I love Uchtdorf I want more uchtdorf. More cowbell, More uchtdorf. But he's, he's kind of playing the role of the good cop to the other brethren's bad cop. And there is a, there is a confusing nature to the there. There is almost, and I don't want to put this on uchtdorf, but there is an abusive element to the good cop, bad cop paradigm. Samantha, you're nodding your head. Why?

Samantha Shelley [00:57:00] Well, yeah, I'm just. What you said about it being abusive. Because I mean a lot of time people, people that are abusive, it's. They're not, they don't know that they're being abusive. They're not trying to be. That doesn't change, you know, we all want to like ooked off, but that doesn't change the fact that like this is a very clear example of whitewashing and sweeping things under the rug with no apology. And then we know that there's already been like this inevitable backlash and members saying, well, those standards, you never had to stick to them. So if you were traumatized in your upbringing by these standards, that was your fault or your family's fault or your community's fault. And it's like, no. These standards were rigidly enforced at every level of the church. And they weren't just guidelines, they were an on ramp to scrupulosity for so many people. We had kids having to lift up their arms and bend over in front of adults at EFY.

Lingering Harm and Modesty Standards Debate

John Dehlin [00:57:50] Women, right?

Samantha Shelley [00:57:51] Well, children, children, 13 year old girls, you know, having to do that because they're being taught at 13 that their bodies are sexual.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] Oh, do I see cleavage? You know, adults assessing. Oops, I see cleavage on you. 13 year old girl. Or oh, oh, you're showing a little bit too much thigh. 13 year old girl. Is that right?

Samantha Shelley [00:58:07] Yeah. What does that say? Children are sexual objects.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. It's rough. I think we've made that point.

Nemo [00:58:15] I think they're just acting like hipsters. They're just acting like hipsters. Right? They're like the people that haven't watched Game of Thrones yet. They're just waiting for it to not be cool anymore and then they'll slowly sneak it in the back door because they don't want to be seen to be going along with everyone else. So they just wait for it to calm down and then allow it.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] Yeah, okay, well, I think we've made that point. Thanks to all of you for helping to make the point.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:37] There's a couple slides that show the. Just a table of contents.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:43] Between the.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] So which. Which is this visual right here.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:46] So this one is the old one, the 2020 version. So for those 2000 version.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] So for those who can't see it, you want to read.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:53] Yeah. So it has table of contents. Agency and accountability, Dating, dress and appearance, education, entertainment and media, Family, friends, gratitude, honesty and integrity, Language, music and dancing, physical and emotional health, repentance, Sabbath day, Obedience, service, sexual purity, tithes and offerings, work and self reliance.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] And then on personal.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:31] Go forward with faith.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Go forward with faith. Okay. That's the old one.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:35] Okay. And this is. Oh, wow. So just looking at it, they've kind of cut the. They've cut the titles in half.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] Read the new one. Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:43] Message from the First Presidency. Make inspired choices. Jesus Christ will help you love. Love God, Love your neighbor. Walk in God's light. Your body is sacred. Truth will make you free. Find joy in Christ. And that's it.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] I mean, that's incredibly positive.

David Dehlin [01:00:06] Right?

John Dehlin [01:00:06] They're getting rid of all these heinous sections.

David Dehlin [01:00:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] And they're all those sections that almost like. I almost heard Uchtdorf's accent as you were reading those. Those sections.

David Dehlin [01:00:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] That's a. That's a positive thing, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:19] For sure.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] Emo.

David Dehlin [01:00:20] What do you think?

John Dehlin [01:00:20] Is that positive that. That change?

Nemo [01:00:23] I think so. Having read through it myself. I think the problem is, like I said, if you read it through the. The cultural lens of a Mormon that grew up with the old one, you're still going to see all the old stuff in it. You're gonna see implied you shouldn't have tattoos. You're going to see implied you shouldn't get second piercings. You're going to see implied the old modesty standards.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:42] Yep.

Nemo [01:00:43] But if you're a youth picking this up fresh, you may well see a different way. And particularly if your leaders approach it a different way. If they approach it the way Oakdorf approached it, then I do think it has the potential to be positive and to be freeing and to be less pharisaical and rigid. I think it's just going to take time for that to catch up.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:03] I remember I wrote an article for LDS Living a few months before I left Mormonism. And it was basically about how the church was overly judgmental about modesty, especially of women, of course. And I talked about how Jesus, he didn't really care about clothing. From what we can gather, he just didn't care. Didn't want people to be, you know, having an ego about their clothing, finding their identity in their clothing or believing that they're more valuable than someone else because of it. And I remember there was backlash and it was still such a faithful article that I wrote, like I was still very much in. But there was backlash from a lot of, especially women, because I feel like women who, you know, like middle aged women who had been bound by these rigid standards their whole lives, the idea of them loosening. Like, I think for older generations this may be kind of tough to swallow, like seeing the youth, you know, be more free and how they dress and stuff. Because we generally are the most sort of infuriated or annoyed by people not following standards that we ourselves felt bound to our whole lives and never thought it was even an option to break.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Yeah, yeah. It reminds, it reminds me of, you know, the fact that at byu, when I went there, you couldn't find a, a caffeinated beverage anywhere. It was all caffeine free, Coke, caffeine free, every doc, you know, everything. And then now at byu, they can have it. And I guess on the one hand people would say, well, John, you're being petty. That's just sour grapes. On the other hand, you know, anyway, we're, we're, maybe we're beating a dead horse here.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:32] I, I, Sorry, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:34] I was just curious if women could wear trousers when you're at byu, because that used to be in the strength of youth. Women shouldn't wear pants.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] Definitely not at church.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:40] Yeah. No, but just generally because it used to say you shouldn't. Women shouldn't wear pants to school, to the grocery store, to anything.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] No. When I was at byu, women could wear pants for sure.

Nemo [01:02:49] Trousers, please. Stamp you up.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:50] I tried.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:52] I'm wondering how much the church is doing this change to the pamphlet, knowing that the changes are not actually going to be enforced by the own membership and the, and the local leaders.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:05] Until probably a generation is, we're a generation away from that.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] I mean, that's, that's a really important point. Like I'm thinking about, just recently I shared the Elder Holland, you know, the Elder Holland MTC talk he gave in secret where he said, you know, to, to missionaries in the mtc, don't you dare return home early from your mission. I don't know a more pitiable, you know, group in the world than, than Mormon missionaries that return home early. And that was just like a cassette tape and a VHS tape that was just stored in bishops and mission presidents and MTC presidents offices. And then whenever a missionary said that he wanted to go home, it would just be pulled out and played. It was never part of any official curriculum. But I've had dozens and dozens of people say to me once I shared that publicly. Oh, yep, yeah. Elder Holland. That was definitely shared with me when I wanted to go home for my mission. So there's this kind of like back channel culture. Another, another example is, you know, when Spencer be Kimball outlawed oral sex in the early 80s. Yes. He rescinded that because of the backlash. But once you send something like that out, like you said Heraldo, like you said Samantha, that's there for generations. And just some, some title changes in a pamphlet isn't going to make that. Isn't going to make that go away.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:21] So what, what real change have we made if we don't denounce the old positions. Exactly. And apologize for it? It's. It's kind of lipstick on a pig. It's kind of window dressing. It's kind of arranging the chairs on the deck and you know, the diet of the Titanic, you know, as it's sinking, you know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:38] You know what this reminds me of? The removal of the honor code homosexuality clause.

David Dehlin [01:04:43] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:44] Well, I think they didn't, they didn't expect, they were expecting to. For the changed to be, you know, be a generation away. They were not expecting for it to be removed and having BYU students posting pictures kissing, you know, in front of Brigham Young statue so you can, you can see how they're, you know, managing the capital there and.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:06] Trying to figure out what changes can we make that are not going to be necessarily immediate but makes us look in a better light.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] Yeah. Neil, did you have a comment?

Nemo [01:05:16] Oh, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't add some clarification. Kind of like they did with the whole BYU gay honor code thing where like essentially you get a stream of Mormon youth all of a sudden going out and getting tattoos, like tattoos of the angel Moroni on their forearm or something. And then all of a sudden they're

Samantha Shelley [01:05:30] like, whoa, guys, they won't mind that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:32] Chill out. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] You know, another example that just came to my mind is when the church made the change that you could have a civil wedding in the United States before you have a temple. So it. Now that's, that's technically true, mainly so that the church can tell the world that that option's available to people.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:53] But inside the church, we all know that the most faithful orthodox youth who choose to get married don't opt for that option.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:01] Yep.

David Dehlin [01:06:01] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:01] Isn't. Is that a fair example?

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:03] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] Yeah.

Nemo [01:06:04] Yeah, I cut my wedding short. I had. I had half a wedding because we had to travel for hours to get to the London temple because we had to be sealed the same day. And then a few months after I married, they released this thing. Say, oh, now you could just go anytime after your wedding. It doesn't have to be on the same day. And, yeah, I. I got a bit salty about that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:23] All right, I have a couple more slides just to show.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] Yeah. So what. What's this slide about, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:28] So this is the old pamphlet, what it said on the.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] Want to read it really quick or.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] Okay. Samantha, do you want to read that? Can you see? Can you even see it?

Samantha Shelley [01:06:36] I can't see, actually.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] Let's have Nemo read it because I think you can probably see it better. Sorry, Samantha, we didn't give you a monitor. That's visible. Can you read it?

Nemo [01:06:43] She can read the email.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Can you read it?

Samantha Shelley [01:06:45] Yeah, I can.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Okay, Samantha, go for it.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:47] Okay, fine. Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme. Extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord's standards will not change.

John Dehlin [01:07:22] Oh, whoops.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:23] That's absurd. They did do not absurd. Saying the fashion of the world will change, but the Lord's standards will not change. It used to be a big deal for women to wear pants. Like you were making a political statement to wear a pair of jeans to the grocery store like in the 60s. As a Mormon woman.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:39] Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. Young women, if you desire to have your ears pierced, wear only one pair of earrings. Again, I mean, even that. It's like, why. Why one pair? Because one pair of earrings was culturally seen as so normal. So to say that these are the Lord's standards is just absurd. Because if the standard is to do not disfigure your body with piercings, then why even one?

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:01] And let's remember that this particular part of the piercing, this was not just on the pamphlet. This was said on general Conference. And there's a clip of Gordon B. Hinckley saying that the whole Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency teach that women should only wear one pair of earrings and no piercings.

Nemo [01:08:22] Edna commended the lad who wouldn't marry a girl because she got a second piercing in her ear.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:27] Why would you let that stand between you and God? Take out your piercing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:31] So basically, Gordon B. Hinckley said, you know, the whole Quorum of the twelve and the First Presidency agree on this. They're setting it as doctrine, as the will of the Lord. And I mean, it was like that for. For a long time. And now we can read what the strength of the. The strength of the new pamphlet, if you go to the next slide, has no mention of the word modesty. So if you search for modesty, it will only appear on the index, but not on the actual content. And this is the only thing that's there about dress. Dress and grooming standards.

John Dehlin [01:09:03] Do you want to read it? Can you see it, Samantha, or do you want Nima to read it?

Samantha Shelley [01:09:06] Yeah, I can. This is also interesting. What is the Lord's standard on dress, grooming, tattoos and piercings? The Lord's standard is for you to honor the sacredness of your body, even when that means being different from the world. Let this truth and the Spirit be your guide as you make decisions, especially decisions that have lasting effects on your body. Be wise and faithful and seek counsel from your parents and leaders.

John Dehlin [01:09:26] Okay, what's interesting about that to you, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [01:09:29] Well, I have seen. Seen Mormon women, like current believing Mormon women, become less and less into the these ideas around modesty. I think there is growing awareness among Mormon women that these modesty standards have been harmful and have been damaging to their psyches. And I think when women get into marriages, for example, and they still hate being naked, you know, things like that, you really wake up to it. I think people like we talked about influences. I know Amber Filler up has been quite influential at. She's done a number of different blog posts talking about sort of her relationship with garments and modesty. And I know there is a growing number of Mormon women who are more focused on the like what the judgment is the bigger problem here, not what other people are wearing in terms of underwear or clothing in general. And I also think, yeah, I think the church is becoming aware that even five years from now, this any kind of anyone dictating to women how they should cover up their body because they're, you know, inviting sexual advances from men or whatever, like that is fully out of vogue already. And it's only gonna look worse and worse as time goes on because it's Already a pretty mainstream thought ish at this point that, you know, modesty culture can feed into rape culture.

John Dehlin [01:10:45] A couple. Thank you Samantha. Couple comments from our viewers. Tim Moore writes, members keep saying for strength of the youth is not doctrine. The language, the Lord's standard is suggest otherwise. That's a good point. Tim Moore, thank you for sharing. Our beloved Colby Reddish writes, my wife cried. Cried when she put in her first set of earrings that looked like she had more than one piercing. Wow, that's pretty, that's pretty extreme if it makes you cry. But I mean if the first presidency was saying that in general conference, then it's, you know, I can see why someone's crying about it. I'm, I am just kind of struck by and salty, you know, that it, that this old pamphlet said the fashions of the world will change but the Lord's standards will not change. Like that's outrageous, isn't it?

Nemo [01:11:36] Kind of statements that didn't age well for 500 points. Please, John. It doesn't look good.

John Dehlin [01:11:42] Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's really outrageous. And you know, it's, I think, think

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:47] it's interesting that in the new manual they make this statement of make sure you ask your leaders and your parents because you know that's giving the church an out because they know that those leaders and those parents were raised with the old standards. So they know what they're going to tell their kids.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:04] And it means those people, those leaders and those parents won't lose their faith because like people lost their faith even when like black people were allowed to have the priesthood. Like people leave the church when things change that they had been taught were, you know, standards of God.

John Dehlin [01:12:18] And if we will and if we're trying to be empath, empathetic. The, the brethren aren't owning up to the mistakes. They're not saying we were wrong. They're not apologizing because they don't want to lose members. They want members to keep believing that they do talk to God, that they are led by God, that they are prophets and revelators. And so they, they're stuck if they don't want to harm the church. They're not able to say we were wrong. They're not able to apologize that this has been their move for decades, if not over a century. It's to make the change, not to reference the past. Keep it vague and ambiguous for as long as you can so that the, the old ways are kind of, you know, still the people engaging in the old ways don't jump ship. But so the people who are engaging in the new ways can get the new message, and over time, the old generations die off and voila. It was always this way.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:12] That's the church's M.O. with everything. But the problem is that, like, you know, children are collateral damage in that gay people are collateral damage in that black people are collateral damage in that, you know.

David Dehlin [01:13:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] And polygamous. Don't forget polygamous.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:25] How empathetic can we really be to the. To the people in power in this situation versus the millions of people that are harmed?

John Dehlin [01:13:31] Right, Nemo?

Nemo [01:13:32] This just creates that smokescreen I was talking about of plausible deniability where the church gets to say, well, it was. It was the militant members in of front enforcing it. You look back at our official publications, we said this was fine, but it was those militant members that enforced it for so long. So. So all of a sudden, it doesn't become about the old booklet. It becomes about the standards that were internalized from that booklet by those adult leaders.

David Dehlin [01:13:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Really quickly, I just want to. I want to give a quick shout out to the people who are supporting this. This episode through the super chat. Mary Marine gave ten dollars. Elder Clay the third gave two bucks. Chemo Lewis gave twenty bucks. You know, we. We do pay Gerardo and Nemo and Samantha and me for our appearances on the show. We've got all sorts of expenses here. So for those of you who are Joining us through YouTube, you can always give us a Super Chat donation by clicking the little dollar sign in the chat window or however your browser tells you you can give a donation. We really appreciate your support that make these things happen on Facebook. If you're joining us through the Facebook live stream, there's a Stars feature that you can click on to also show your financial support. So thanks to everyone who supports us through becoming a direct donor, but also for those who support us through Super Chats, we always appreciate that. Okay, so I guess we've covered. I guess we've covered for the strength of the youth. Yeah, let's. Let's go ahead now and jump to the next. You know, the thing, this is one of the first things I saw come out of Reddit or, you know, the commentary on my own private Slack group. I think it was even Maven that that kind of said, hey, is that the first black woman to speak during Latter Day Saint General Conference? And lo and behold, the headline. Gerardo, anything you want to start off with there?

Historic First Black Woman Speaker at Conference

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:20] Yeah, I mean, I think I saw someone on Tik Tok saying, well, it is 2022, so it's about time. And yeah, I mean, I think it's a big deal that it's the first time, you know, but kudos to the church and also glad they're catching up.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] It's so hard because in some, if we're being fair, as ex Mormons, the church is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they, if they don't make the change, we're going to harangue them until eternity that they're not changing. And then ex Mormons, as soon as the church makes a change, it's like, well, it took you a long time. Finally, like, like it.

David Dehlin [01:16:02] Are we.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] I mean, on the one hand, are we just being curmudgeons? On another hand, are we disincenting their positive change by always just being negative, whether they make a positive change or not? Samantha, I'm going to give you the first chance to respond.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:16] And then, Nemo, it's really hard for me to feel that it's a positive change because, yes, obviously we want more black women speaking publicly in all spaces, but it, to me, it feels like, you know, a teenage girl getting up and being like, yeah, Jeffrey Epstein was a great guy. It's like, okay, we're hearing from you. But it also feels like it's. She's being used in the service of perpetuating the power of a racist church. So it's hard for me to feel celebratory about it. Also, I mean, yeah, it's insane for them to not have a black woman speak. It's 2022. It's again, like, the most basic PR move they could possibly make. But, yeah, it. It does feel hard to feel too happy about it because it's like, I would almost. I'd rather the racism just be. I'd rather them just kind of show themselves for what they are than, like, have people to be like, see, we're not racist. We can possibly be racist. We had a black woman speak, but it's like, okay, so then that's maybe like one thin extra layer between someone realizing, like, this is a horrifically racist church.

John Dehlin [01:17:22] Nemo.

Nemo [01:17:22] Yeah, I think it was Christofferson, say, in defense of the church, but I think it was Christofferson who said that essentially the church is changing and diversifying, and this isn't some sort of forced diversity. This is just the natural byproduct of the church moving all over the world. And what I, I think who he was speaking to there very specifically was the right wing of the Church members, the, the very, not even politically conservative, just culturally conservative members of the church who don't like the idea of equality of outcome being enforced. This idea that the church is specifically picking people based on their identity characteristics, on race, of gender, etc. They don't like that idea. They just want it to be a fair race. Whoever gets the top gets to the top. That's their kind of default set psychologically. So I think he's speaking to those members and reassuring them, hey, look, things are changing. Black people are starting to speak at conference. But don't worry, we didn't enforce that. It's not just because they're black. Hey. It's just because the church is expanding. Because that membership, that part of the church, as we've seen in other issues, are willing to mobilize and are willing to be very vocal and the church wants to keep them on side.

John Dehlin [01:18:40] Yeah, I, I guess, I guess I'm now thinking about, you know, the Salt Lake Tribune did kind of like a, a reader poll leading up to General Conference where they, they asked their, their readership, if you could see one headline coming out of this upcoming general conference, what would you want the headline to be? Do you guys remember what one for the headlines? Samantha, did you see it? I didn't see said we apologize. So for all the possible things.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:13] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:19:13] That like smart alecky readers and viewers. Because they could be snarky.

David Dehlin [01:19:17] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:17] The Salt Lake Tribune commenters can be very snarky. Of all the possible things they could say, the one thing they wanted to see was, was we apologize. In other words, this falls far short of an apology. Right. You could almost say, well, you could say it's cosmetic, but you could also say, like you said, Samantha, it's PR101 to make sure that you've got the person of color there in the slot to be representative.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:44] And it would have been PR101 in 2001 or 1985 or, you know, it's 2022. They could not be later.

John Dehlin [01:19:54] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:55] There's also the fact that, you know, the Book of Mormon still says that skin of blackness is a curse or was a curse.

John Dehlin [01:20:04] And the book of Moses, the book

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:05] of Abraham says, you know, that the black skin came from curse of King Egypt.

Nemo [01:20:11] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:11] And so man.

David Dehlin [01:20:14] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:15] Like having, having a women, a black woman speaking General conference doesn't cut out, doesn't all of a sudden eliminate the racist racism in the, in the scriptures.

John Dehlin [01:20:26] Yeah.

Speaker G [01:20:27] Yeah.

Nemo [01:20:27] Let's be fair. Right? She will have had to hustle to get to that position. She will have had to network, make friends, be in the right place, the right time, all this sort of stuff. Especially because there's nine slots for women at the top as general officers. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:39] Yeah.

Nemo [01:20:40] And this kind of undermines a lot of that because she's always going to have in the back of her mind, well, was this just because I was black in the church, wanted a diversity higher and that sucks.

John Dehlin [01:20:49] Yeah, Well, I still, it's positive. Right? I, I remember it was just this century, like the 21st century, I believe, where the first woman gave a prayer in General Conference.

Nemo [01:21:03] Yes. 2013 or 14. I think that happened.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then it wasn't until ordained women and kind of the fears after ordained women that you started seeing women sitting up on the stands at General Conference and, and you started seeing maybe a slight increase of appearance of women auxiliary leaders at general Conference. So I mean, I guess, I guess you could argue that for the church this is like, this is like mach speed. This, this progress, this General conference progress is mach speed for sure.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:33] And I think it is, you know, there's a ton of progress for sure for strength of youth change. You know, like this feels different from

Samantha Shelley [01:21:41] the strength of youth change to me though, just because for the strength of youth change, it's like, okay, less rigid standards for youth. That is objectively good. But with this, I'm like, is it just obscuring people, like seeing the truth of the church? Yeah, this is an organization that is continuing to amass wealth and power. Like doesn't the church own a fifth of Florida or something? Like the church is so wealthy and so powerful and obviously any multi billion dollar organization has to do whatever it takes to like maintain its reputation. But it just feels like it's all in the service of the church, maintaining and continuing to amass wealth and power while harming people. So this to me, like it feels like with the strength of you thing, I can see a more direct thing of like, well, women won't be taught like such directly harmful messages about the way they dress. But then when this, yeah, it's like representation is good, but it's so conflicting for me.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] JC Writes, tokenism hurts. That's JC Summarizing it. Kim M. Writes, performative. Yeah, I think it's right. And until they denounce the, the explicit racism in the Book of Moses, the Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon, plus all the past racist statements by all the general authorities, unless they denounce all that and change it, this is just performative. Potentially. This is just lipstick on a Pig. It's rearranging the chairs as the Titanic sinks. It's.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:04] I mean, maybe among the most racist members of the church. Literally, just seeing a black woman speak might actually do something. Now that I'm thinking this, I think for the people at the extreme end of the racism spectrum, there is a chance that it could, could kind of, you know, switch something up in their psyches in a positive way. Maybe.

Speaker I [01:23:21] Yeah.

Nemo [01:23:21] But they've been seeing black men speak for a little while now.

John Dehlin [01:23:24] Yeah, yeah.

Nemo [01:23:25] At least a few years.

John Dehlin [01:23:26] That's right. As a quick fact checking thing, Coco Bee reminds us something I was going to add. I think the church owns 2% of the public land of Florida. I think it's now between 2 and 4%. But while that's not 30% or whatever statistic you quoted, Samantha, I mean, it's massive, 2 to 4% of the state of Florida. It makes the church the largest, like

Samantha Shelley [01:23:49] the political power that they have. With how much? Well, I mean, Utah, they run the state.

John Dehlin [01:23:54] Yeah.

Guest [01:23:55] Yeah.

Speaker I [01:23:55] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:56] Well, you decide. Let's, let's let the listeners decide if it's a positive move.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nemo [01:24:04] You tell us.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] Yeah. Okay. All right. So, Gerardo, you want to set up this next, this next clip?

Elder Renlund's Talk on Personal Revelation

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:10] Yeah. Elder so this one, I thought we should play the whole thing and just pause it and maybe comment on sections if anyone wants to chime in. But this talk was

David Dehlin [01:24:24] really

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:28] kind of shocking a little bit to me, just because I think the church has been moving into this arena of personal revelation. We see, you know, people like Dr. Julie Hanks, you know, mentioning and talking, making a platform and talking a lot about personal revelation. And you should, you know, have a personal relationship with Jesus and ask, ask Jesus or God, you know, to make decisions for yourself and maybe what the prophet receives for the whole church, maybe that doesn't necessarily apply to you personally. You get to decide. You get to pray. We've had people like Patrick Mason or what's. Oh, my goodness, Jim Bennett, you know, people, members of the church who talk about this idea of, I don't believe everything Russell M. Nelson says or, you know, necessarily adhere to everything the apostles or the prophets say. I pray to God, I have my personal revelation, and I decide whether something is true or not. I mean, we had Patrick Mason even going as far as to say he does that with Scripture. So this talk kind of seems to contradict a lot of those ideas. And we have Ella Renlund saying, no, whatever is contrary to what the prophets are telling you, that's not. That's that can't, there's no possible way that that comes from God. So. Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] All right, well, let's, let's go ahead and roll the clip and I'll just ask Samantha, Nemo and Gerardo. Just say pause and I'll, I'll do my best to pause it because I'm running like five things here at once.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:18] All right.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] All right. So here's the clip of Elder Runland.

clip [01:26:26] Like many of you, I have been greatly influenced by Elder Dieter F uchtdorf over the years. That explains at least in part what I'm about to say. So with apologies to him, well trained airplane pilots fly within the capacity of their aircraft aircraft and follow directions from air traffic controllers regarding Runway use and flight path. Simply stated, pilots operate within a framework, no matter how brilliant or talented they are. Only by flying within this framework can pilots safely unleash the enormous potential of an airplane to accomplish its miraculous objectives. In a similar way, we receive personal revelation within a framework. After baptism, we are given a majestic yet practical gift, the gift of the Holy Ghost. As we strive to stay on the covenant path, it's the Holy Ghost that will show us all things that we should do. When we are unsure or uneasy, we can ask God for help. The Savior's promise could not be ask and it shall be given you. For everyone that asketh receiveth. With the help of the Holy Ghost, we can transform our divine nature into our eternal destiny. The promise of personal revelation through the Holy Ghost is awe inspiring, much like an airplane in flight. And like airplane pilots, we need to understand the framework within which the Holy Ghost functions to provide personal revelation. When we operate within the framework, the Holy Ghost can unleash astonishing insight, direction and comfort. Outside of that framework, no matter our brilliance or talent, we can be deceived and crash and burn. Paul's the scriptures form the first element.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] All right, we've got a, we've got a pause request from Nemo.

Nemo [01:28:46] I'd just like to say first, it's excellent of him to mention me as he's talking about people that are talented and brilliant, but I, I, this was, this made it very clear. This talk is all about staying in your lane, about do, don't stray out of your lane. Don't go trying to deal with things that are nothing to do with you. If you go out of your lane, then he can't help you. The Holy Ghost isn't there for you. He's basically setting very firm boundaries on the gift of the Holy Ghost because, you know, that's what they got to do, because heaven forbid, my Holy Ghost tell me that something they're doing is wrong.

John Dehlin [01:29:17] Hey, yeah. I mean, for me, you know, this is one of the. This is one of the, you know, issues that I had as, like, a 14 or 15 year old, because, you know, when my seminary teacher tells me this is God's one true church and you can pray and know the Book of Mormon is true, I'm taking that really seriously. When he tells me, you can go to the temple and angels will appear, I'm like, all right, well, I want to see that. Like, I'll be worthy. I'll avoid all my. All the sin so that I can reset level of righteousness. But as soon as I start praying and as soon as I start going to the temple and fasting and trying to perform a miracle, it. It takes 12 seconds to ask yourself. Now, wait a minute. Okay, I just. I'm, like, stopped at a stoplight, and I can go right or left, and I'm gonna ask the Holy Ghost whether I go right or left. Oh, I just got a feeling I should go right. Okay. I went right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:10] All right.

John Dehlin [01:30:10] Nothing happened. All right. Was that my feelings? Was that my brain, or was that the Holy Ghost? And. And that's. He is addressing one of the core epistemological. Epistemological problems or issues with Mormonism. How in the world do you distinguish between your own brain, your own thoughts, your own emotions, and this thing called the Holy Ghost? And he's basically. He's trying to lay it out as something very clear. It's like, you're either in. You're in the cockpit, you're in the. You're in the framework, or you're out of it, and you could be deceived by Satan. So, like, on the one hand, I'm excited. I'm like, let's go all the running. Like, I've been waiting for an answer to this question for 53 years. Right. It's good.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:54] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:55] I'm excited to hear what he's going to say. I haven't really listened to this yet.

Nemo [01:30:58] He's dancing through a theological minefield, and it's. It's just incredible how many minds he treads on. It's.

John Dehlin [01:31:04] It's incredible.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:05] I'm already ready to go off. Let's go.

David Dehlin [01:31:07] All right.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] Should we do it?

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:09] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:31:09] All right. All right. Well, let's go back to Elder Runland.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:15] I wonder what he'll say of this

clip [01:31:18] framework for personal revelation. Feasting on the words of Christ is Found in the Scriptures stimulates personal revelation. Elder Robert D. Hales said, when we want to speak to God, we pray. And when we want him to speak to us, we search the scriptures. The scriptures also teach us how to receive personal revelation. And we ask for what is right and good and not for what is contrary to God's will. We do not ask amiss with improper motives to promote our own agenda or to fulfill our own pleasure. Above all, we're to ask heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, believing that we will receive.

John Dehlin [01:32:08] All right, I gotta call. I gotta call that right there. Yeah. So two things that just jump out to my mind are. Number one, he's so saying, if the brethren have already told you. This is what I heard. If the brethren have already told you what's right, you're not allowed to ask that. So, for example, if. If you feel like coffee might be good for your digestion, digestive system, or even just to help you get up in the morning, if you feel like two piercings are okay, if you feel like a tattoo might be all right, or not going on a mission or

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:38] dating a same sex relationship.

John Dehlin [01:32:40] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker I [01:32:40] If.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] If you're not even allowed to. You're not even allowed to ask the question.

David Dehlin [01:32:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:44] And in that sense, he's kind of like putting in a boundary that just immediately feels, I don't know, coercive. What is it?

Samantha Shelley [01:32:52] Well, it's classic control group stuff. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:55] What do you mean?

Samantha Shelley [01:32:55] It's all Haidamon religions and cults teach that, you know, adherence to what the leader said. The leader is the ultimate authority. Right. If you ever have thoughts or feelings that conflict with what the leader says, you should doubt them. But I also just think this is fascinating for him to be saying in 2022, because so much church apologetics hinges on this idea that prophets can speak as men.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:16] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:16] So it's like if you're alive under Brigham Young and Brigham Young's teaching that black people were less righteous in the premortal existence and the interracial marriage is a sin and always will be, and you'll always be damned for doing it. And you know, it's apparently wrong for you to even go to God questioning whether that those racist teachings were okay. So it's like again, the church with the double speak with the. Trying to have their cake and eat it too, because, you know, yeah, two piercings, whatever. But it's like the further you go back in history, the more disturbing it becomes that this is what they teach. Because the church is kind of trying to have it both ways with like, well, if anything that a prophet said was too bad, then he was just speaking as a man. Well, let's look at what the prophets have said. Horrifically racist, sexist, homophobic stuff that they need members to believe could have been sort of overridden by personal revelation because they were just speaking as men. But this, according to this, to even question the idea that black people were less righteous than the premortal existence would be going against, like, this talk that he's giving. So it's like the consequences are more and more severe. The further you back, the further back you go, and more horrific things are being taught.

Guest [01:34:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] Nemo and her art are. Nemo and her order are jumping out of their skins.

Nemo [01:34:26] What is amazing is he goes on later in his talk to explain that it is all on the members. If they misinterpreted, that's their fault.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:33] If you misinterpreted someone saying this is doctrine alongside a racist statement, but you

Nemo [01:34:39] are responsible for your own interpretation of it by the Holy Ghost, which is

Samantha Shelley [01:34:44] like, what would that have looked like? It would have looked like excommunication or being killed under Brigham Young for, like, doubting his authority because you didn't buy into his racist bullshit.

Nemo [01:34:52] It's mental. So he does get to have his cake and eat it too, because he's dancing in this theological double speak. Double speak, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:01] And it's going to get worse.

David Dehlin [01:35:02] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:02] Oh, yeah, I think something, I mean, like, just like Sam said,

Speaker H [01:35:10] a lot

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:11] of today's Mormon apologetics, it's based on this. On this idea that prophets make mistakes. But if we go by what Elder Renlund is saying, prophets cannot make mistakes because you have to always go with what they're saying.

clip [01:35:29] And

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:33] Jim Bennett mentions this, you know, this idea that

Nemo [01:35:38] if

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:41] Mormon, if you believe this way, like Elder Renlund is teaching, then that would mean that the prophet or apostles have been deprived from their agency, that they can't choose from right or wrong, they have to always choose right, and that there's no possible way they can do the wrong thing or teach the wrong thing, which goes against church doctrine as well. So it is very. It starts getting very, very confusing.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] I'll just say for me, something that was a little bit triggering is, you know, recently we've been hearing whether it's Bednar or like a random area authority say to, like, prospective mission missionaries, don't they literally saying this, don't ask the Lord if you should go on a mission. You already know the answer, or a cousin of that Is you made the covenant when you were eight to, you know, basically obey the law of consecration and give everything. So you already made that decision when you were eight. And this is basically an apostle. Elder Runlund, kind of enshrining the philosophical foundation of those, what I think are coercive and horrific, you know, teachings. It's kind of enshrining this in the cloak of apostolic authority. And I think that's deeply disappointing and problematic.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:02] And it comes back to something I just constantly think about, which is like, if you were a member of the church, when I keep using racism as the example, I just feel like it's the strongest one. But if you were a member of the church under someone like Brigham Young who was teaching horrifically racist things as like, thus saith the Lord doctrine, and you didn't. You. You couldn't go along with that. You felt in your heart that that was wrong, that that was terrible. You would get kicked out of the church. So then it's like God restored this church to just have a bunch of people who were like, morally weak, you know, that would just go along with what a guy is saying, because that's what they're supposed to do. Like, then what was the point of restoring the church if the people that are going to be staying in the church are people that are willing to go along with things that we now know to be horrifying. Same with polygamy or, you know, any other issue.

David Dehlin [01:37:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] Does Anyone remember the second point? Renlund made? 2 points in that intro? One was, don't ask questions outside the cockpit. Basically, what was. Does anyone remember the second point? I. I'd probably putting people on the spot. I. I was gonna say two things and I lost the second. So anyway, that's fine. Should we just go on?

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] Okay. All right, let's go on to the talk. Continuing.

clip [01:38:15] The element of the framework is that we receive personal revelation only within our purview and not within the prerogative of others. In other words, we take off and land in our appointed Runway. The importance of well defined runways was learned early in the history of the restoration. Hyrum, page one of the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon claimed to be receiving revelations for the entire church. Several members were deceived and wrongly influenced. In response, the Lord revealed that no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, until I shall appoint another in his stead. Doctrine, Commandments and revelations for the church are the prerogative of the living prophet who receives them from the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the prophet's Runway. Years ago, I received a phone call from an individual who had been arrested for trespassing. He told me it had been revealed to him that additional scripture was buried under the ground floor of a building he tried to enter. He claimed that once he obtained the additional scripture, he knew he had received the gift of translation, bring forth new scripture, and shape the doctrine and direction of the church. I told him that he was mistaken, and he implored me to pray about it. I told him I wouldn't. He became verbally abusive and ended the phone call. I didn't need to pray about this request for one simple but profound reason. Only the prophet receives revelation for the church. It would be contrary to the economy of God for others to receive such revelation, which belongs on the prophet's Runway. Personal revelation rightly belongs to individuals.

Limits Placed on Personal Revelation by Leaders

John Dehlin [01:40:28] All right, so really quickly, there are some smirks and some audible gasps. Gerardo, you want to start?

David Dehlin [01:40:35] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:35] You know, there we go. He just said, you know, the prophet is the only one that receives revelation from God for the entire church. No one else can. And everything that he receives and he gives us is correct. If anyone comes and tells you that the prophet is wrong, they're wrong because the prophet is always right. And, I mean, there's no way then, like, what about fallen prophets? You know, what about David in the Bible? You know that apologists love to mention prophets in the Bible that may mistake, make mistakes, and that God, you know, chastise them or takes them out of their position for if you go with what he's saying, there's no way for that to happen.

John Dehlin [01:41:19] So I'm hearing a slightly different Gerardo. I'm hearing him saying, if revelation is going to come for the church, it's not going to come from some rando claiming to find scripture under stairwell. It's going to come from the prophet. I'm hearing it slightly differently.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:35] I think he's. He's saying both. Both.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] Okay. Yeah, yeah. Because. Because we all know that if somebody disagree with Brigham Young back in the 1800s, they're excommunicated. If anyone. When Oliver Cowdery called Joseph Smith an adulterer, what, he finds himself excommunicated even though he's in the first presidency or co president, even though he was a translator of the Book of Mormon, you disagree with the prophet, you're out on your ear. So I think your point is practically true, but I do think he was making a slightly different point.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:02] Well, on this story, he does Say that the person who was claiming to find new scripture, this person said that it was going to change the course of the church, meaning that the church was not going in the right direction.

David Dehlin [01:42:13] So.

John Dehlin [01:42:13] Yeah, right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:14] You know.

John Dehlin [01:42:14] Oh, right, right, right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:15] So the new person was receiving revelation to change where the church was going, which. Meaning that the current prophet is not taking the church where it should be go. Basically a snuffer.

John Dehlin [01:42:26] Yeah. And. And, you know, to me, what comes to my mind, being raised Mormon, is this. Don't steady the ark. That if. If you notice that the ark is falling, you try and steady it, God's going to strike you down.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:39] Yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [01:42:39] It's the Lord's anointed's job to. To steady the ark. Nemo is there to this point?

Nemo [01:42:45] Oh, yes, there is.

John Dehlin [01:42:46] Okay.

Nemo [01:42:47] Absolutely. Can we just. I mean, we could spend an hour. I certainly could. Talking about the phrase the economy of God. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:56] Polygamy.

Nemo [01:42:57] Those words. And. And that indicates this idea that God is not the author of confusion. God would not have multiple people receiving revelation for his church. That would create too much confusion. It would stop the. The linear progression of God's church that is anything but linear because God's constantly having to revoke random things that some prophets said. He's having to take blood atonement out of the endowment. He's having to take Adam God theory out of the endowment. He's having to reverse a policy three years after it was instituted that punishes children for the action of their parents. He has to reverse in nine months the ban on oral sex because members of the church were livid. The economy of God. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:43:39] Yeah.

Nemo [01:43:40] Mute myself and raid.

John Dehlin [01:43:42] No, it's hard because, you know, I once kind of reduced it to. How do you. How do you know the prophet speaking for God? His mouth's moving. Right. Like how you just. It's, you know, But. But also this whole stay in your lane thing, like, you know, it really does tie the hands. What. What has. What have the brethren. What is the church. Not if they've talked about what underwear you wear, if they've talked about number of earrings, length of your hair, what you can and can't drink or eat. They've told you how to live your life. So what is left, really? What is left that the prophets haven't spoken about? What can any lay member claim as their purview that the prophets haven't already weighed in on? Is that fair?

Speaker H [01:44:35] Yeah.

Nemo [01:44:35] There's nothing left for the members to be individual about because the prophets have already weighed in on all of it.

John Dehlin [01:44:40] They've weighed in on all of it.

Speaker I [01:44:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:43] There just comes a point where it's difficult to even legitimize this stuff enough to respond to it intelligently because it's just such textbook cult tactics of just, like, listen to the prophet. What does the prophet say? Keep following me. What are the leaders say? Keep following us. It's just like this massive loop.

Nemo [01:44:59] Yeah. It's like this revelation. Joseph Smith, God going, God says, the only person that can get revelation for the church is me. Sorry, guys.

Samantha Shelley [01:45:09] Yeah. And it's like, what? I'm pretty sure every prophet since the church was founded has taught something that, like, as doctrine that the church now disavows.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] Yeah.

David Dehlin [01:45:22] All right.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] Well, we could. This is really triggering so that we could go on this for days.

Samantha Shelley [01:45:25] It is.

John Dehlin [01:45:27] But we'll. We'll jump back in Elder Renlund. Let's let him continue.

clip [01:45:33] You can receive revelation, for example, where to live, what career path to follow, or whom to marry. Church leaders may teach doctrine and share inspired counsel, but the responsibility for these decisions rests with you. That's your revelation to receive. That's your Runway. A third element.

John Dehlin [01:45:57] All right, wait a minute. I gotta. I gotta throw a flag there. I gotta throw a flag there, Gerardo. Can you choose who you want to marry? I mean, he did.

Speaker H [01:46:05] Listen.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:06] That's what I was gonna say. At least he said that.

Speaker H [01:46:10] There you go.

Nemo [01:46:10] That's your Runway, Gerardo. Off you go.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] No, but can you. I mean, can you, Gerardo?

David Dehlin [01:46:15] No.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:15] Well, no, because the prophet said they can't already.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:19] Yeah, exactly. He said they can't.

John Dehlin [01:46:22] Yeah. And an LGBT member can't choose who they marry. So, I mean, he's actually wrong. Yeah, Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:28] That's true.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:30] I mean, he said you can ask. You know, he's talking about what kind of personal revelation you can receive. You can ask God who to marry. And God should tell you a woman.

Speaker H [01:46:40] Right. If you're.

John Dehlin [01:46:41] If you're a guy.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:41] If you're a guy.

David Dehlin [01:46:42] Yeah. Yeah. If. If.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:44] If you receive a. If you receive an answer that says you should marry a guy, then that's wrong. That's from Satan. Because the prophet has already weighed on that.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] And that's part of the loop you're referring to, Samantha, is if you pray and what. What your emotions or brain tell you aligns with what the past prophets are. Current, better said current prophets are saying, well, then, yay, you got your answer. But is it ever okay if you get a personal answer that's different from what the prophets sees and revelators have said in modern Mormon culture, can you ever get up and in sacrament meeting and say, hey, you know what? Redland said that I could pray about who I'm going to marry. I'm Gerardo, I decided to marry Zach and all the members are going to be giving you like the double thumbs up, saying, oh, good God, spoke to Gerardo and he gets to do what he wants.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:31] Is that going to happen?

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:32] That's never going to happen.

John Dehlin [01:47:33] That's never going to happen.

Speaker I [01:47:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:35] The other thing that I'm just outrages me is just that what's driving change, it's in 2022, it's never revelation. It's Sam Young is driving changes around, you know, children and one on one interviews and the way the churches handles abuse. You know, what's making the church change around women? It's the ordained women movement and women protesting. What's making the church change, becoming more historically transparent. It's, it's, it's post Mormon podcasts and the CES letter and other types of things and activists and so, you know, for the church to just claim that there is any revelation in 2022. Name one change that the church has made that wasn't preceded by public, you know, just embarrassing protests by people in the social media or outright activists. Can we name one?

Samantha Shelley [01:48:35] I mean, I don't think a lot of people were championing the homophobic baptism policy. They came up with that one on their own.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] Right. But then they took that back. Yeah.

David Dehlin [01:48:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] All right, let's keep going.

clip [01:48:50] We'll be in harmony with the commandments of God and the covenants we've made with him. Consider a prayer that goes something like this. Heavenly Father, church services are boring. May I worship thee on the Sabbath in the mountains or on the beach. May I be excused from going to church and partaking of the sacrament, but still have the promised blessings of keeping the Sabbath day holy. In response to such a prayer, we can anticipate God's response. My child, I've already revealed my will regarding the Sabbath day. When we ask for revelation about something God has already given clear direction. We open ourselves up to misinterpreting our feelings and hearing what we want to hear. A man once told me about his struggles to stabilize his family's financial system situation. He had the idea to embezzle funds as a solution, prayed about it, and felt he had received affirmative revelation to do so. I knew he had been deceived because he sought revelation contrary to a prophet, contrary to a commandment of God. Freudian the prophet Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:50:15] Wait, what's that? What's that, Nemo?

Nemo [01:50:16] Nothing is a Freudian slip.

John Dehlin [01:50:18] I. I missed it. What was the Freudian slip?

Nemo [01:50:21] Oh, he said revelation contrary to a prophet of God. But he really means country to a prophet. Okay, absolutely. That. That is what he intends.

Joseph Smith Stories and Revelation Framework

Speaker I [01:50:30] Okay.

David Dehlin [01:50:30] All right.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] Thanks for that. All right.

Nemo [01:50:32] He was.

John Dehlin [01:50:32] He was just about to tell us what. What Joseph Smith. What Joseph Smith said. Let's let him tell us what Joseph Smith said.

clip [01:50:40] The greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God. Some might point out that Nephi violated a commandment when he slew Laban. However, this exception does not negate the rule. The rule that personal revelation will be in harmony with God's commandments. No simple explanation of this episode is completely satisfactory. But let me highlight some aspects. The episode didn't begin with Nephi asking if he could slay Laban. It wasn't something he wanted to do. Killing Laban was not for Nephi's personal benefit, but to provide scriptures to a future nation and a covenant people. And Nephi was sure that it was revelation. In fact, in this case, it was a commandment from God. The fourth element of the framework is to recognize how God has already.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] Holy moly, Nemo. You got. You got this one?

Nemo [01:51:47] Yeah. That bloke who went running in looking for his new scripture, he may not have wanted to be there. He may have been pretty sure it was Revelation, and that new scripture could help the entire church. So what are you talking about, Renlund? You're the same man that looked at Heavenly Mother and went, yeah, we don't know. And you've just looked at the Nephi example and gone, yeah, we're not completely sure, but I've got some ideas. He's not doing a great job, is he?

Samantha Shelley [01:52:07] Also, as a leader of a church like this, you should be aware that there is always going to be a percentage of people who, for example, suffer from schizophrenia, who have voices kind of involuntarily come into their head telling them to do stuff. So it's like you need to be saying that the fact that it was okay to. To kill the defenseless drunk, to get the plates that weren't even used in the translation process was okay because he didn't want to do it. Like, that doesn't feel like a very strong argument because it's like how, you know, people who struggle with hearing voices in their head, how are they going to receive that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:36] Yeah, or if you think, like, if Nephi was real, like, if this situation was real, wouldn't Nephi be thinking, like, oh, he's going to, you know, chase after us, he's going to kill my family, he's going to kill me. You know, those kind of ideas would probably be in someone's head if Nephi was real. So why is he so sure of what Nephi was thinking and wanting?

Samantha Shelley [01:52:59] It's so interesting that he brought up the Laban story because he doesn't have a very satisfied.

Nemo [01:53:05] Yeah, well, through the minefield and he just treads on a mine. He's like, oh, okay, that wasn't.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:10] Can tell you what that one was about. Got a few theories.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] Well, I mean, I think it's obvious why you brought up Layman. You know, Laban and Nephi. You know, in 2022, we just had, we just had under the Banner of Heaven, the documentary series come out where the Lafferty brothers feel the impression that they need to kill people. We've got Chad De Bla and Lori Valo and all these prepper Mormons that are starting to get revelations that their spouses are going to die because they actually are getting feelings that they want to sleep with other members of their super special book club or prepper group. Like death and murder is actually a relevant issue in 2022. So I think that's partly why he, he, he's invoking it. But it's really problematic as someone who, you know, I did, I, I did study psychology. I have an advanced degree in psychology. Like, is he saying that somebody who suffers from a schizophrenia diagnosis doesn't really understand that the voices are, you know, aren't from, are from God? Like, when you're hearing voices in your head, when you're getting that overwhelming feeling of something is right or something is wrong, you believe it. You know, Margi, Margi once read a book that basically said, what is feeling wrong? Light. What is feeling wrong Feel like. It feels a lot like feeling right. Like, who, who, who in the world who feels justified in something doesn't feel like it's the right thing at the time. Whenever you're angry and you feel like you should punch somebody or yell at your spouse or do something abusive, you feel certain at the time that it's the right thing. So he's not giving us a clear litmus test at all. At all. It's, it's worthless. And then the other thing is, he says Nephi was sure. Well, again, yeah, but who's not sure when they really feel sure. So he's given us literally nothing. It's kind of like the. These are not the droids you're looking for. He's giving us some explanations as if he's just, he's just really clarified everything. And I don't think he's clarified anything. I think he's made it worse.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:16] He's made it worse.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:17] Yeah. And he can't see the elephant in the room, which is like the same mechanisms by which people become converted to Mormonism. And I know because I did, are like the same mechanisms that can make people do other really atrocious stuff because they just become convinced. And it feels like a classic high control group response to people starting to become more emotionally self sufficient because awareness of mental health is increasing. So what he's doing is basically just saying, like, no, stay psychologically dependent on us. And he's, he doesn't. He's not talking about any of this through like a mental health lens, which, like the story he gave sounds like a story of mental health in my mind. He's just like, well, you won't have any of those problems if you just follow our high control group. And. But that's not true. Like, that's not how any of that works.

John Dehlin [01:55:59] No, no. Maven makes the point that, that RFM has an episode playing a tape from Dan Lafferty. Dan Lafferty, who's at the point of the mountain. High security prison, or maybe he's somewhere else in Utah. But Dan Lafferty is still sure that, that he should have killed whoever it was he killed. So it. Thank you, Maven. And yeah, thank you, rfm. That's just really, really bad logic.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:20] Well, what, what he what, Run? Nephi was right because he didn't ask to kill Laban. He wanted to preserve the plates.

John Dehlin [01:56:34] It didn't originate. He says it didn't originate with Nephi.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:37] And so that's another thing. But that's, that's called ego syntonic versus ego dystonic. If it originates with you. If you think it originates with you. Yeah, that's called ego syntonic. And that's, that's when someone's schizophrenic. Ego dystonic is when you hear the voice, but you realize it's not you. But that's literally the difference between two psychological diagnoses. Is he expecting people with mental illness to be able to self diagnose?

Samantha Shelley [01:57:06] Right. And just. And like, as if the solution to something like schizophrenia is just follow the Mormon prophet. Like, imagine if that was it. We'd have no schizophrenics.

John Dehlin [01:57:15] Yeah, yeah.

Nemo [01:57:17] And I just. I really want to pin that point, and it's only a simple one. Nephi was sure it was Revelation. How. How was he sure it was revelation? That'd be a really helpful piece of information to have here while you're seeking to justify this.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] Well, it's also slightly problematic that Nephi never existed.

Nemo [01:57:34] Well, there's that.

John Dehlin [01:57:35] I mean, that's.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:36] That.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] That's a slight problem.

David Dehlin [01:57:38] Like if.

John Dehlin [01:57:38] If all the evidence points to the fact that Nephi was, like, made up by Joseph Smith. So should we be looking to a fictional character created by Joseph Smith as the standard of whether or not we should kill somebody?

Samantha Shelley [01:57:50] He could have written any character he wanted. Kill a defenseless drunk.

John Dehlin [01:57:54] Yeah, like three chapters into the Book of Mormon. Yeah. So anyway, we've made the point, but it's an important one because Mormonism often is a matter of life and death. I don't think I. I don't think that's an exaggerated point.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:08] All right, let's keep going. How much more, Gerardo?

Nemo [01:58:11] Yeah, we nearly. We did that.

clip [01:58:12] We're getting close to you personally while being open to further revelation from him. If God has answered a question and the circumstances haven't changed, why would we expect the answer to be different? Joseph Smith stumbled into this problematic scenario in 1828. The first portion of the Book of Mormon had been translated when Martin Harris, a benefactor and early scribe, asked Joseph for permission to take the translated pages and show them to his wife. Unsure what to do, Joseph prayed for guidance. The Lord told him not to let Martin take the pages. Martin requested that Joseph ask God again. Joseph did so, and the answer was, not surprisingly, the same. But Martin begged Joseph to ask a third time, and Joseph did so. This time, God didn't say no. Instead, it was as though God said, joseph, you know how I feel about this, but you have your agency to choose. Feeling himself relieved of the constraint Joseph described, decided to allow Martin to take 116 manuscript pages and show them to a few family members. The translated pages were lost and never recovered. The Lord severely rebuked Joseph. Joseph learned, as the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob taught, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand, for he counseleth in wisdom. Jacob cautioned that unfortunate things happen when we ask for things we should not. He foretold that the people in Jerusalem would seek for things that they could not understand, look beyond the mark, and completely overlook the Savior of the world. They stumbled because they asked for things they would not and could not understand if we have received personal revelation for our situation and the circumstances haven't changed. God has already answered our question.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:35] I think we just stopped there.

John Dehlin [02:00:36] Okay.

clip [02:00:37] We sometimes ask repeatedly.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:39] And then I want to, like many of you, and then I want to point out that he changed this history a little bit on Martin Harris and Joseph smith and the 116 pages. He says that Joseph went and inquired once God about Martin taking the pages. God said no. He inquired twice, God said no. And then Elder, according to EL Renlund, Joseph asks a third time and God says kind of like do as you wish kind of thing. Like, I already told you what to do, but you decide. Well, according to the history Joseph myth papers, it says after much solicitation, I again, and this is the third time, and this is Joseph, I again inquired of the Lord and permission was granted. So according to, you know, Joseph Smith, God granted him the permission. The third time it was not, you know, God saying, oh, you decide what to do. So just kind of like a slight change of history that he tried to do there to make it look like it was Joseph's fault for not following the first, you know, instruction and the second instruction where according to Joseph, it was God's fault because God granted him permission.

Nemo [02:02:13] Yeah, don't we, like, don't we big up? Jacob is one who wrestles with God. Right. Don't we big up other characters that wrestle with God and really contend with him? Yeah, we pick those people up. But also Joseph Smith, you know, not so great for asking God a couple of times.

Church Leaders Address Abuse Policy

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:31] Yeah.

Nemo [02:02:31] And then doing what God told him. Like you said. God said. Yeah, okay, crack on. And he was like, all right, cool, we'll do.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think that again, we've made this point already, but like, what precipitated changes in the LGBTQ policy? It was protesters and activists and a bunch of LGBT deaths. Basically what precipitated the changes in abuse, the limited changes in abuse. And one on one interviews. Sam Young and the Protect LDS Children movement.

Speaker H [02:03:04] Women.

John Dehlin [02:03:04] It was ordained. Women. Like, like he's basically saying, until the stat, until the prophets change the status quo, stick with the status quo. But we know that, that what makes the brethren change is people objecting and asking and protesting and, and even, and even Joseph Smith. You could take it back to the founding of the church. There, there was confusion. There were a bunch of churches. Well, Joseph could have just stuck with the status quo and just like joined one of the existing churches, but he didn't stick with the status quo. He prayed and asked God, and then God gave him an answer. Why. Why didn't Joseph just let. Let things go as Jesus said? Does that make sense? Anyway, Nemo, I know you've been. You're. You're staying late and you probably need to duck out. We're loving your contributions, so we want to give you a final word before you have to bail. We love having you.

David Dehlin [02:03:57] Sure.

Nemo [02:03:58] I mean, this. This conference was. People ask me how. Why do I do a conference halftime show every year? How do I know there's gonna be something to talk about? But there's always something to talk about because the church is always going to do something mental. They're always going to do something slightly bizarre. They're always going to gaslight. Somebody is. It's par for the course. So much of this is par for the course that in many ways it's not that interesting. But a light needs to keep being shined on it or shone on it because, you know, it is. It is important that people realize this is what's going on. So other things to say in terms of final words, I'm just. I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me on. Really excited. At the end of the month, I'll be in Utah. Shameless plug that. I'm going to be in Utah.

John Dehlin [02:04:41] Speaking of speaking at.

Nemo [02:04:42] Speaking at Thrive Day at the end of the month. I think that's on the 29th of October. I want to say it's the Saturday. It's the last Saturday in October. Provocity Library. So I'll see you all there.

Guest [02:04:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:56] And you can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com to register. I'm sure there's still a few tickets left.

Nemo [02:05:01] I think there is. Yeah. But snap them up because I'd love to see you there. And I'm gonna hang out with you lovely people as well, and it's gonna be a blast.

John Dehlin [02:05:09] And Nemo, how do people. How do people find your channel, Nemo

Nemo [02:05:14] the Mormon, on basically every social media you can think of.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] Okay. And you're getting. You're getting good growth, so it's super exciting to see your growth.

Nemo [02:05:23] Yeah, it's going all right. And the halftime shows have been. Have been very popular. So thank you to everyone that tuned into those. And yeah, I'm taking a little bit of a break over October, and then I will. I'll come back with a. I'm probably going to vlog my trip to Utah, so that'll be some slightly different content. You can all enjoy Seeing that also,

John Dehlin [02:05:42] please give our love to the other Britvengers.

Nemo [02:05:44] Yes, I'm seeing them at Sunstone. I'm traveling up to Sunstone tomorrow. So Sunstone UK is happening this weekend. Any British viewers that are watching or European.

John Dehlin [02:05:55] Western European or anyone who us European. Yeah, yeah, check.

Nemo [02:05:58] Come, come join in. There's still spaces available, so.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] We love you, Nemo. Thanks, brother.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:04] Bye, Nemo.

Nemo [02:06:05] Have a good one.

John Dehlin [02:06:06] All right. Thanks, Nemo. All right, well, we don't want to. We don't want to drag this on too long, but we do have a couple more really important things.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:17] The next ones are not going to be full talks like that one.

John Dehlin [02:06:19] They're going to be super brief. All right, well, the next big one was something that maybe some of us could have predicted. There was a statement about abuse. And I think it's important. Maybe, you know, let's play the clip and then we'll talk about why. Why this may or may not have actually been a real progress. Let's. Let's roll the clip.

Speaker G [02:06:41] As president of the Church, I affirm the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ on this issue. Let me be perfectly clear. Any kind of abuse of women, children or anyone is an abomination to the Lord. He grieves and I grieve. Whenever anyone is harmed, he mourns. And we all mourn for each person who has fallen victim to abuse of any kind. Those who perpetrate these hideous acts are not only accountable to the laws of man, but will also face the wrath of Almighty God. For decades now, the Church has taken extensive measures to protect in particular children from abuse. There are many aids on the church website. I invite you to study them. These guidelines are in place to protect the innocent. I urge each of us to be alert to anyone who might be in danger of being abused and to act promptly to protect them. The Savior will not tolerate abuse. And as his disciples, neither can we.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] Well, Samantha, you made some really cool videos in your reaction to this part of the talk on Zelph on the Shelf and your own personal tick tock and Instagram. So let's give you the first.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:35] Yeah, I feel like everyone's sick to death of hearing me response to this, but it just feels so empty. Abuse of women and children was systemic under Mormon polygamy. He doesn't confront how the Church has played a role in the abuse of women and children throughout its history. He doesn't address the fact that the founder was a child abuser. The next guy, the next, you know, all the leaders of the church for Generations were grooming and coercing children into marriage and women as well, because even adult women like these are men in a position of power and they live in a community where everyone reveres these men as leaders. So, you know, there's a power differential there. No matter what he says, the church has taken measures to protect children for decades. I'd love to have heard him name them because it seems like the church sure pushed back a lot on Sam Young stuff.

John Dehlin [02:09:21] And then Sam was excommunicated.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:23] Yeah, we just had an AP article come out by the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who exposed the Catholic Church's cover up of child sex abuse, saying that essentially the Mormon Church has been doing the same thing. So again, I mean, you can't ever really know these men's intentions. I don't know what Russell feels in his heart. I'm sure he does feel that abuse is bad. But like, just saying abuse is bad with absolutely no recognition or bringing awareness to the ways that the church has like created systems that abuse women and children or allow for the abuse of women and children to go undetected is heinous to me. It just feels so empty and like insulting because it again, it's going to placate a few members of being like, see, we think it's bad, but everybody thinks abuse is bad. We all know that we don't need to hear that necessarily. And again, like the, the what the Catholic Church was accused of, what the Mormon Church has been accused of is allowing child sex abuse to go on to protect its own reputation. Right. And it's like, that's the church's whole approach to all of this because they can't talk about how Joseph Smith was a sex abuser. They can't talk about how Brigham Young was or any of these other guys because that would hurt their own reputation. So we know, we can see from that that like they do value the protection of their own reputation over the protection of children because it would actually be extremely valuable for them. I mean, what would be more valuable than them speaking up about their, you know, how Joseph Smith was a Heber and coerced and groomed children and women into marriage. That would be invaluable because we know that religious hierarchies lend themselves to the abuse of children and women and people generally. And so we can't, the church people can't get better at spotting what abuse looks like. If you won't call out your founder doing it like it just. And I know they can't because then the whole thing crumbles to the ground. But it just is just pointless and empty to me and infuriating.

John Dehlin [02:11:20] Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:21] Yeah, I think all I would say is this phrase of God doesn't tolerate abuse, and we don't either. Makes me a little bit upset knowing, you know, how Michael Resendi says the church obviously tolerate abuse for seven years on this. On this. On this case in Arizona. So saying we don't tolerate abuse. What does that mean? When the stake president knew, the two bishops knew. You know, probably the whole high council knew. Obviously church headquarters knew, and they let it happen for seven years. So sounds very empty.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:04] And continuing to, like, uphold Joseph Smith's marriages to these underage girls. As you know, that was like, that is the definition of tolerating abuse. You won't name it in your profit. Like, that is tolerating abuse. Like, what? It's just empty words.

John Dehlin [02:12:23] Yeah. Yeah. I liked your point, Samantha, that it's not courageous in 2022 to condemn abuse. Saying the church has made extensive changes. There's so many changes the church could make, just simply requiring background checks of all people held in callings. You know, this would have been an amazing chance for him to just say, always report abuse to police authorities. We all know that that's what needs to happen. It shouldn't be bishops or stake presidents that are deciding whether or not police, you know, investigating whether or not abuse happened, and then, you know, whether. Whether or not it should be reported to the police. No, just report to police. But instead of him making the actual changes, that would make a huge difference. Right? Instead of saying, hey, we've got hundreds of billions of dollars, and now it's conference time, time for a big announcement. Instead of saying, hey, let me. Let me. Let me make an apology for all the abuse victims that have suffered for generations and generations, that we've protected their abusers at the expense of these victims. Instead of apologizing, instead of making substantive changes, he's going to announce 18 new temples and. And not make any meaningful substantive changes. It's hard not to say that this statement was motivated by Michael Resendez, again, a secular, I'm assuming, journalist, is. Is prompting and leading, you know, a prophetic statement. But also, Kurt McConkey, it's like, hey, we. We need, you know, it's got to be the lawyers calling up, saying, hey, it would be really timely to have some sort of prophetic condemnation of abuse now that we're getting bludgeoned in. In the press as being protectors of abusers. Yeah. So it's. It's yeah, it's. It's hard. On the one hand, yay, you condemned abuse. On the other hand, oh, my gosh. This is just. It's not. It's not enough. It's. It's awful. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:22] Brigham Young said monogamy is no part of the economy of heaven. And we've only ever seen Mormon polygamy be inherently abusive to women and children. So what does that say? God does tolerate abuse? Or everyone in Mormonism did it wrong, in which case feels like God should issue a little statement about that.

David Dehlin [02:14:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:40] Yeah. All right, well, we can just keep going, but we need to end at some point. Nemo said this will be the one that Mormon Stories episode that's shorter than his. We're going to make Nemo.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:54] He doesn't know John.

John Dehlin [02:14:55] Oh, it's all me. Is this all me? All right, Samantha, we got somebody do a time count of who's talked the most. I'm not sure it's going to be me, but maybe it will be. Maybe.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:05] Well, you go too easy on them. So I got. You know.

John Dehlin [02:15:09] All right, the next. The next clip is entitled Satan has Other Tactics. Let's see what Satan's other tactics are.

President Nelson on Truth and Misinformation

Speaker G [02:15:22] The adversary has other disturbing tactics. Among them are his efforts to blur the line between what is true and what is not true. The flood of information available at our fingertips ironically makes it increasingly difficult to determine what is true. This challenge reminds me of an experience Sister Nelson and I had when we visited a dignitary in a country where relatively few people have heard of Jesus Christ. This dear aging friend had recently been quite ill. He told us that during his many days in bed, he often stared at the ceiling and asked, what is true? Many on Earth today are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it. Some would have us believe that truth is relative, that each person should determine for himself or herself what is true. Such a belief is but wishful thinking for those who mistakenly think they will not also be accountable to God. Dear brothers and sisters, God is the source of all truth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints embraces all truth that God conveys to his children, whether learned in a scientific laboratory or received by direct revelation from him.

John Dehlin [02:17:21] All right, Gerardo, why'd you pick that clip?

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:24] It seems like in recent general conferences, there's always this talk. But President Nelson talking about, you know, what it's true and not believing what the media says, not believing what social media says, you know, talking about information at her fingertips and the Internet, just to be careful Which I think generally it's a. It's good advice. But then later he. He says that, you know, truth only comes through. Truth will come through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You know, God reveals the truth to its prophets, and the church embraces all truth. So whatever the church believes is what. Is what you can consider to be true, and whatever the church does not believe, like evolution, which he's on record saying he doesn't believe in evolution and he's the prophet, you know, then you can just discard that and be sure that that's not true. So. Yeah, just this interesting. You know, it seems like it's repetitively in every general conference.

Speaker I [02:18:31] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:32] But I thought it was pretty interesting to talk about it.

John Dehlin [02:18:34] Yeah. Samantha, you want to add anything?

Samantha Shelley [02:18:36] Well, didn't it. Didn't he also say in that talk that the church accepts all truth, whether it comes through a scientific laboratory? Yeah, and it's like. Well, you don't. You don't accept DNA science. You don't. Apparently, you don't believe in evolution.

clip [02:18:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:48] Well, again, flood. Global flood. Babylon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I wrote. The church absolutely does not accept all science as it relates practically to the church's truth.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:00] Anyone can say that, like, my truth is the truth. And, yeah, that science is actually bad because I said so, but it doesn't mean anything, you know?

John Dehlin [02:19:08] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's similar to the remnant talk. Right. It's kind of an epistemology talk.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:19:14] But it's just reasserting the idea that follow the brother. Because whenever they say God is the source of all truth, follow God. Well, how. I mean, how do any of us know what God's really saying? Oh, oh. The Mormon prophets are telling us what God said. So really what he's saying is.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:32] And how do we know they're speaking for God?

Speaker I [02:19:34] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:35] Funny feeling.

John Dehlin [02:19:35] Their mouths are moving, Right? Yeah. But don't follow the old. The old Mormon prophets. Follow the current one.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:41] Don't even read what they said.

John Dehlin [02:19:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, we're being repetitive now, but it's just. He's really saying follow the prophets, right?

David Dehlin [02:19:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:19:51] And. And it's very obvious that if they've been wrong, if Mormon prophets are wrong about polygamy, they're wrong about black people and the priesthood. If they're wrong about LGBT people, if they're wrong about the word of wisdom, what are they wrong about now? So it's just. It's just a trap. It's a problem. All right, Saturday evening, Gerardo do you want to set this one up?

Patriarchy, Family Proclamation, and LGBTQ Empathy Claim

David Dehlin [02:20:13] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:13] So this first, and I promise there's not that many left, but this is on this dog. Elder Suarez mentioned women and men in marriages, which I thought it was kind of interesting what he mentioned because it slightly contradicts the family proclamation. So if you just want to play the clip and we just.

John Dehlin [02:20:35] I don't have a Suarez video.

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:36] Just go to next.

John Dehlin [02:20:37] Go to the next one. Women and men in marriage. Yeah, okay, let's pull that.

Speaker H [02:20:44] From that point on, they move forward interdependently and in full partnership with the Lord, especially in regard to each of their divinely appointed responsibilities of nurturing and presiding in their family. Nurturing and presiding are interrelated and overlapping responsibilities, which means that mothers and fathers are obligated to help one another as equal partners and share a balanced leadership in their home. To nurture means to nourish, teach, and support family members, which is done by helping them to learn gospel truths and develop faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in an environment of love. To preside means to help lead family members back to dwell in God's presence. This is done by serving and teaching with gentleness, meekness, and pure love. It also includes leading family members in regular prayer, gospel study, and other aspects of worship. Parents work in unity, following the example of Jesus Christ. To fulfill these two great responsibilities, it is important to observe that the government in the family follows the patriarchal pattern, differing in some respects from the priesthood leadership in the church. The patriarchal pattern entails that wives and husbands are accountable directly to God for the fulfillment of their sacred responsibilities in the family. It can. It calls for a full partnership, a willing compliance with every principle of righteousness and accountability, and provides opportunities for development within an environment of love and mutual helpfulness.

John Dehlin [02:22:39] Did he just name patriarchy as a

Samantha Shelley [02:22:41] virtue in the government? He snuck that one in.

John Dehlin [02:22:45] Patriarchy of the government's a good thing.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:47] So no women leaders. Is that what we're getting from that?

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:50] He redefined patriarchy in the home versus patriarchy in the church. He said patriarchy in the home is different and. Yeah, because it's just about being accountable to God. Right. Is that what he's saying?

Samantha Shelley [02:23:04] I got lost.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:06] Yeah. And specifically. Yeah, that was really interesting, you know, redefining the word patriarchy and saying that women are part of patriarchy in the same role as man, which that was not my understanding, but that's good progress.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:25] And then the next one is that he says that nurturing and providing. At the beginning, he said nurturing and providing are both interchangeable responsibilities, and both men and women are responsible for both equally. Where. If you go to the next one in the Family Proclamation, it says in this sacred. Sorry. Where it is by divine design, fathers are to preside over the families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection of the family. And mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. So basically, the family Proclamation distinguishes the responsibilities of the father as being the ones that provide, and the mother is the one that nurture. He just said that they're interchangeable and, you know, they can. They're just equally the same. Kind of interesting and. And pretty cool progress.

John Dehlin [02:24:27] Yeah, it's. It, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:30] Is he just doing the, like, separate but equal thing, you know?

John Dehlin [02:24:33] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:33] Of, like, they have.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:34] Yeah. Well, that's kind of. That's kind of what the Family Proclamation does. I think he. He went further, further and said it's. It's all the same.

David Dehlin [02:24:44] Mm.

John Dehlin [02:24:46] So how are you feeling? You are a woman.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:49] I don't know. Just was like, nothing to me. Like a standard dude giving a talk. Like, I. We gleaned nothing from it. People are going to take from it whatever they want. Like, it's all just so vague. You can really come away thinking whatever

John Dehlin [02:25:02] you want was the substance, basically.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:04] But he sure made a point to say that, you know, patriarchy is a good system that we should keep in the government as well.

John Dehlin [02:25:11] And was. He basically was the subtext. Women, you know, you don't have it that bad. Women, you're more equal than you think. I mean, is that basically what he's saying, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [02:25:20] I mean, I don't know. I truly don't know. I was, like, tuning out. And that one. I'm gonna be real. I'm just like, I doubt this man has anything valuable to add about patriarchy.

John Dehlin [02:25:30] You don't see him as a credible source to address feminist concerns, Is that what you're saying?

Samantha Shelley [02:25:34] I mean, maybe he's, like, met with a few people who are, like, getting divorced because men don't take on any domestic labor or something. I don't know. I don't know what's, like, propelling him to make those statements. I can't tell. Which. I actually can't really tell what he's saying.

John Dehlin [02:25:47] Okay. All right, well, thanks, but I'm not

Samantha Shelley [02:25:50] going to chalk it up as a win, you know, you're not.

John Dehlin [02:25:53] You're not.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:54] I'm not that desperate for the breadcrumbs.

John Dehlin [02:25:56] You're not getting re baptized anytime soon.

David Dehlin [02:25:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:26:00] All right. All right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:01] Some people saw its progress. I think it's interesting that he slightly contradicts the family proclamation that is signed by. By 15 prophecies series.

John Dehlin [02:26:11] But it's not canonized. Yeah, they could have canonized it. They didn't canonize.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:14] That's true. And we have him here slightly changing it. Yeah, we'll see what's.

John Dehlin [02:26:19] That'll be interesting.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:19] So when. When people say, like, oh, the fabric proclamation won't change. Well, point them to this talk.

David Dehlin [02:26:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:28] All right, well, the next. The next clip is this was. There was a big, big feedback about this. Elder Holland showing empathy for lgbtq. For LGBTQ individuals. Let's roll the tape.

Guest [02:26:46] I know people in and out of the church who are following Christ just that faithfully. I know children with severe physical disabilities, and I know the parents who care for them. I see all of them working, sometimes to the point of total exhaustion, seeking strength and safety and a few moments of joy that can come no other way. I know many single adults who yearn for and deserve a loving companion, a wonderful marriage, and a home full of children all their own. No desire could be more righteous. But year after year, such good fortune does not yet come. I know those who are fighting mental illness of many kinds, who plead for help as they pray and pine and claw for the promised land of emotional stability. I know those who live with debilitating poverty but defying despair, ask only for the chance to make better lives for their loved ones and others, those in need around them. I know many who wrestle with wrenching matters of identity, gender, and sexuality. I weep for them, and I weep with them, knowing how significant the consequences of their decisions will be.

John Dehlin [02:28:32] Holy moly. I'm gonna let you talk first, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:36] Yeah. Ah, man. When are we gonna get out of this? Of this idea or, you know, this rhetoric of putting LGBT people together with people with disabilities and mental illness and extreme poverty and, you know, like, if there's something wrong with us, you know, I mean, I guess a lot of LGBT people have mental illness, but. But why? What something that's so integral of so many people's identity?

clip [02:29:07] Why?

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:08] Why? Putting it as a burden? As a burden, you know, And I think the only reason it would be a burden is if there's people out there who are homophobic who are teaching these types of messages. That's. That's the main reason why it is a burden. Not because of the Orient, sexual orientation, or gender identity themselves. And I think what made me worried the most was because that's the Only group where he said that he weeps because he knows how big the consequences of their decisions are gonna be. Basically, like a threat. Like, he's threatening LGBT people, saying, like, if you may, you. You're the group of people that if you make the bat a bad choice, like, the eternal consequences are just. You just have no idea. And. Yeah, that's hard.

John Dehlin [02:30:18] Yeah. Thank you, Gerardo. Samantha, you want to add anything?

Samantha Shelley [02:30:21] Just the fact that this man is considered a thought leader in any way is wild.

John Dehlin [02:30:26] Yeah, well, for me, Gerardo, I mean, you're the authority here, but for me, yeah, he. I mean, what's bad? Having a disability? It's kind of ableist, but, you know, fine. He puts people who leave the church in there, right? Being single now. Now, if you choose to be single because you just want to be single by choice, you're lumped in with a bunch of baddies, right? People with disabilities, people have mental illness, you know, so there's no, there's no affirmation for people who are single by choice. The childless. Now, you're pitiful because you're lumped in with all the other pitiful people. There's a. There are people that just for their mental illness, can't or don't want to have kids. But, like, it's all bad.

David Dehlin [02:31:12] Right?

Samantha Shelley [02:31:13] He just literally is listing groups that he has been part of oppressing. It's like Jeff Bezos being like, I weep for the Amazon factory worker who wasn't able to take a bathroom break. And it's like, know you were. You were at the helm. You could have. You could have made that not happen.

John Dehlin [02:31:25] Yeah, there. There was a really important meme or quote by Maddie East Easton where he's basically saying, I'll just paraphrase that. Elder Holland, what are you doing? Saying you empathize with the suffering of LGBTQ people when you represent the institution that caused their oppression and their suffering. And then when you add to the fact that he's the one that gave the musket talk where he tells BYU faculty administrators to, to pick up their muskets to, to stand against modern ideology,

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:58] same sex marriage and LGBT people.

John Dehlin [02:32:00] Yeah, like, like, it's. I, I, There's. I don't want to say shameless, but it feels.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:06] It does feel shameless.

John Dehlin [02:32:07] It feels shameless.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:08] There's no shame there. It's just him trying to legitimize the church's ongoing homophobia. It's like you weep with them. Great. Now stop doing the homophobia bit. You know, like, it doesn't Putting the focus on you. Like, you weep for them and, like, listing all the people you're capable of feeling empathy for. Well done. But it's like, let's. Let's be effective about, you know, doing something about it. Yeah, that's not even a thought. This all just serves to placate members who are maybe a bit concerned about the church's homophobia. They can be like, well, Erdogan feels really sad about having to keep being homophobic. So.

John Dehlin [02:32:40] So, I mean, if we're trying to understand his motives. Just like with Elder Nelson, President Nelson's. Nelson's abuse talk. Elder. Elder Holland's in the. In the doghouse for his musket talk. So there is kind of a PR optics potential motivation here. It's not just, hey, he loves LGBTQ people and empathizes with them. First of all, he helped cause their oppression. Second of all, he lumped them in with the poor and the mentally ill and the disabled. But third of all, he's trying to restore his tarnished reputation as being anti lgbtq. How much can we say this was really altruistically, sincerely motivated versus, like, you got to go throw some. Throw some love to the LGBTQ community because you. You really made a mess. You really stepped in it. Now you gotta. You gotta reclaim your brand a little bit. I hate to be.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:32] No, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:33] Cynical.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:34] It's not cynical. We've watched that as mainstream attitudes towards LGBTQ people have softened, so has church rhetoric. And I just feel like there comes a point where, like, yeah, we want to analyze people's intentions, and we want to kind of pass out potentially, like, the. The good. But it's. There just comes a certain point where it's like, where people in this. With this much power are saying things that cause this much harm. It kind of is irrelevant what their intentions are. You know what I mean? It's like, how. How much grace are we trying to give them? Like, I don't think we even need to know necessarily what Russell M. Nelson thinks about abuse, what Jeffrey R. Holland think. Like, I believe that he probably does weep for those people. That really doesn't change anything either way, though, because it's. The fact of the matter is you have a lot of power. You have a lot of influence, and you use it for bad. Whether or not your intentions are good is irrelevant. Like, once you have that level of power, it's not really our job to pass through potentially the best interpretation of what you're saying. It's our job to be like, this is what's happening. Because of the things that you're doing.

Gerardo Sumano [02:34:39] Yeah. And I think what's worse to me is when he said he doesn't say he weeps because your struggles as LGBT people and members of the church. He says he weeps because of how important the consequences of your decisions are going to be, which is kind of like me saying, oh, I weep for my. My sister who's serving a mission because of how dumb she's being. You know, that's. By not knowing church history. I weep for that.

John Dehlin [02:35:14] It's condescending and insulting a little bit.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:16] Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Speaker I [02:35:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:20] So it's certainly falling short of, like, we celebrate you. You're perfect just the way you are.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:26] Who you love, all love is legitimate, and go have great love. Like, that's what you want, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're so sorry for decades of oppression, you know, and harm. Yeah, yeah. All right, well, we've gotten just. We've gotten kind of. I mean, this is hard stuff, so.

Covenants, Closing Reflections, and Farewell

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:45] All right, well, two more slides.

John Dehlin [02:35:47] Two more slides. So there. We don't have a video on this, but for those who weren't paying attention, it's the first time that that President Nelson delivered his talk sitting down. What is he, 98?

David Dehlin [02:36:00] 99.

John Dehlin [02:36:00] Like, how old is he?

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:01] 98? I think so.

John Dehlin [02:36:02] I mean, on the one hand, it's a miracle he's still alive. And speaking. He is the oldest living prophet in the history of Mormonism. Right. He passed Hinckley.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:36:11] So, I mean, that's remarkable. The Lord is keeping his anointed alive for longer than he ever has before. It's a miracle that he's even alive, let alone cogent and coherent. Yeah, but. But he is sitting down. Anything we want to say about that, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [02:36:28] Good for him. He deserves to sit down.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:31] He made a post on his social media just talking about why he sat down and saying that, you know, making jokes about being old and how he helped him. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:41] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:42] There's just something interesting that it made the news and the Jewish things, which I thought was.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:46] Old man sits in most groundbreaking thing that happened.

John Dehlin [02:36:51] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I will say that, you know, with my stepdad, once you lose mobility, that's. You start to go downhill fast. So, I mean, this could be a sign of significant decline in health, because once you're not able to walk.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:05] He's 98, you said.

John Dehlin [02:37:06] I. I think.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:10] I'm sure he wants to make 100. And he probably will. He probably will.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:13] We'll see.

John Dehlin [02:37:15] All right, well, that's we have one more to go. And. And where's my clicker? One more to go.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:23] He just turned. Oh, yeah. He just turned 98 on September.

John Dehlin [02:37:28] Yeah. All right, the last one. Is President Nelson talking about why people leave the church. Anything you want to say ahead of this, Herodo?

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:35] No, I think it's a good closing.

John Dehlin [02:37:37] Okay, tell us, Elder President Nelson, tell us why we left the church. Here we go.

Speaker G [02:37:46] Dear brothers and sisters, I grieve for those who leave the church because they feel membership requires too much of them. They have not yet discovered that making and keeping covenants actually makes life easier. Each person who makes covenants in baptismal fonts in temples and keeps them has increased access to the power of Jesus Christ. Please ponder that stunning truth. The reward for keeping covenants with God is heavenly power. Power that strengthens us to withstand our trials, temptations, and heartaches better. This power eases our way. Those who live the higher laws of Jesus Christ have access to his higher power.

John Dehlin [02:38:51] All right, Samantha. I heard some audible laughter.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:54] I just thought it was funny. I was like, this stunning truth coming from him. It just made me laugh. Okay. But yeah, he immediately asserted that people leave the church because the church is too much for them, which we know is like a favored narrative among believers because it's self soothing. Because then you don't have to address any of the actual, you know, he's not getting up there and being like, I agree. For people who leave the church because they decided that they couldn't be on board with a church founded by a Heber file, you know, he's not going to do that. I also think it's interesting that you said covenants make life easier because a common narrative we hear from believers is that people leave the. The church because the church is too hard. I mean, that's kind of like what he said right before, right? It's like they. They. Again, the double speak. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Sometimes people leave the church because it's. It's too hard for them and it's the easy way out to leave. But then also living, staying in the church and living according to the church makes life easier. It's like, which one is it, Russell?

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:47] I'm curious, Gerardo. Is life easier for you now? And I don't think easy is really the target. How about just healthier and happier? Is life easier and healthier Healthier for you now or when you were trying to fit in the church's box?

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:01] Oh, for sure. No, it's easier.

John Dehlin [02:40:04] Is it easier and healthier, both.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:06] And healthier.

John Dehlin [02:40:07] How can it be easier and healthier?

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:10] Doesn't make sense. Right. But that's. I, I don't know. I don't, I, I don't have a, A system of oppression that is telling me how to act, what to do and to go against, you know, who I am. So I guess that just makes it easier. And it's interesting that he does. He also wants to say that, oh, well, people leave the church because it's too hard, but then also they haven't realized that it's actually easier. But how about a lot of people who have left who obviously are not coming back and probably won't come back because they know it's easier being outside? I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:40:54] I mean, I, you know, from a mental health standpoint, I know people who suffer with scrupulosity, religious OCD, for decades, and when they left the church, guess what? The scrupulosity went away. I know people that suffered from morbid obesity, and when they left the church, all of a sudden they lost 10 or 20, 30, 40 pounds. That's not everyone. That's not to say that losing weight is necessarily good, but there are people whose health, mental health, physical health dramatically improves also their happiness. Honestly, people wouldn't leave if, if people were healthier and happier in. Why would they ever leave? Like, so it is, it is wrong. It is harmful. It's insulting. This idea of having heavenly power when you were in. I was never able to access heavenly power, not once. And I tried, I tried to call down miracles. I was never able to do it. So to say that I lost heavenly power, I was faithful for a long, long, long time. That heavenly power, that's one of the reasons I started having a faith crisis. I'm like, where's heavenly power? I bless someone, they're still sick or they die. Like, okay, I pray that X, Y and Z will happen. Well, it didn't. Like, I don't, you know, so it's insulting, it's harmful, it's invalidating, it's just flat out inaccurate. And it's, it's super hurtful. And it's, it's reinforcing these stereotypes that, that we were weak, that we just got offended, that we wanted to sin, that we couldn't, we weren't as valiant. And what's harder? What's harder? Tell me, Russell and Nelson, what's harder than leaving a high demand release?

Samantha Shelley [02:42:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:35] And having your spouse want to leave you, having your parents feel disappointed in you losing your entire Community, losing your identity, losing your sense of morality, your source of spirituality, losing your community. What's harder? What's, you know, what's more difficult? You tell me.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:53] Literally being up against millions of years of evolution, wiring you to protect your deeply held beliefs at all costs and telling your brain that if you, if your worldview collapses, you will die. You have to stay with your tribe, you have to maintain your worldview or your very survival is at stake. Which sometimes it is.

John Dehlin [02:43:11] Yeah, yeah, it's super disappointing. And. But now people are just going to say we were just looking to criticize, looking to find the negative and that. All right, let me make an argument. Like one of my criticisms of general conference and we're coming back to how we started is that it was sort of like I talked to people who worked in ER rooms, emergency rooms and hospitals in Utah and I had had it, I've had it confirmed to me multiple times that self admissions or admissions to the ER spiked. Right. Right after general conference because of statements by Oak, statements by Boyd K. Packer that led people literally to be suicidal. Like if that's the index, we've been curmudgeons, we found all the problems with, or many of the problems with this, this general conference. If we're just measuring it by the index of ER admissions, can't we say that maybe this is the best general conference in our lifetime in that. By that, by that metric have they

Samantha Shelley [02:44:21] been lower this conference? Is that what you're saying?

John Dehlin [02:44:23] I just, I don't know, but I would just benign.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:26] Is that what you're saying? Yeah, there was more progress. I.

John Dehlin [02:44:29] This seems to be the least outrageous, the least harmful general conference of my lifetime.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:35] Who's to say?

John Dehlin [02:44:38] Well, I'm just. Can we, can we try to say something? Can we try to fix.

Nemo [02:44:43] I would agree.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:44] I agree that there, there, there. I was surprised by the progress. I was surprised by, you know, the change in language. You know, we mentioned the family proclamation thing. I respect Sam's opinion. I'm not to say if women should feel better or not. I think the language is different from the family Proclamation. It's progress. And the update to the youth pamphlet and that stuff. It's good we've talked about. Things are probably not going to change in the near future. People are probably going to keep thinking the same way and they know it. But it's good that they're making changes.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:33] Yeah, I do think the youth pamphlet was a little bright spark because that was a thing where that actually has the potential to lessen people's Psychological dependency on the church. But my issue with the whole thing just being more benign is like, okay, well, if an organization that is encouraging psychological logical dependency on it, that is corrupt and harmful and enormously wealthy and powerful gets better at PR and, you know, masking its true nature from people, is that good? I can't say. Like, it's. It's hard to know, isn't it?

John Dehlin [02:46:01] Yeah, yeah. And then there's just always. There's always the challenge of like, does it amount to rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic that's sinking? Where's the substantive change? All we get is another 18 temples. And, you know, these are temples that the church, you know, is probably not going to have many members to attend, let alone temple workers to staff. Yeah, it's almost just like a bit another flex, another Legacy play. Another 20 temples are being announced. But where's the substantive meaningful change? I don't think we got it. But. But we got a better pamphlet and that's good. So congratulations, President. Elder Uchtdorf. Congratulations, Church. We're glad because let's face it, some of the biggest harm done in the church is with the youth.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:53] So congratulations. Sincere, heartfelt congratulations, Elder Dorfin Church for improving the pamphlet for the youth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Samantha gives a reluctant shrug.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:11] You can use congratulations as the word of choice if you want. I just think it's important to, like, we can talk for 10,000 hours and you have on this wonderful podcast about how the church's truth claims are false and its teachings are harmful. But the thing that just, I think we just all need to keep perspective that like everything that was on display this general conference, the double speak, the gaslighting, the PR moves, all of it is like textbook high demand religions and cults, textbook high control group trying to retain control of people so they remain psychologically dependent on the organization. And in my opinion, it is not healthy to be psychologically dependent on an organization like Mormonism. And Mormons are also not unique in their strategies. Like everything we saw at this general conference, you would see at a Jehovah's Witness conference, our Scientology conference, like, it's all the same stuff. They're all using the same psychology tactics to keep people psychologically dependent. The content, you know, we can talk about all day, but at the end of the day, it's just about those tactics.

John Dehlin [02:48:12] Andrew Fike says backstory on Samantha.

Speaker I [02:48:15] Please.

John Dehlin [02:48:15] Andrew Fike, Google Losing Mormon Millennials on Mormon Stories podcast or Samantha Shelley. We've interviewed Samantha just recently. We did one a Thrive story about you, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:26] Yes, we did.

John Dehlin [02:48:27] You didn't like it?

Samantha Shelley [02:48:28] No, it just was very personal.

John Dehlin [02:48:30] Yeah, but it's amazing. So you.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:32] You and Maggie did a great job.

John Dehlin [02:48:33] If you want to learn more about Samantha, check out the episodes on Mormon stories about Samantha. All right, Gerardo, we want to give you a final word, any final word.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:44] I feel like I already did, but.

John Dehlin [02:48:45] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:46] I'll just say. Well, I hope you know that the church keeps changing. I mean, we know it's not going to go away. So at least. At least, you know, I think that's what we do. What we do, we speak out so that these changes can continue to happen. And I'm glad they're happening at a faster pace than I ever thought they would. You know, I. I mean, seeing people on social media wearing straps and calling themselves lds never thought that would be. They would get the church's time amp a stamp of approval. And they just basically did. So, yeah. Yeah, that would be my thoughts.

John Dehlin [02:49:35] I'll just say I'm glad things are slowly getting better. I think they are slowly getting better. My prayer, my secular prayer is that what we don't see is kind of two steps forward, one step back. Because. So just like the good cop, bad cop dynamic that we talked about, that's what abusers do. They abuse you and then they show you extra love, and then they abuse you again, and then they show extra love. If we can kind of like if we can bank all this progress and never have another oaks talk condemning same sex marriage, you know, another. Another talk putting women in their place or whatever it is. If we can kind of mark this as a benchmark and then never slide back on any of the important issues, then it will be a positive step. But if we just look at subsequent conferences taking us back in those bad directions, then we're right back to kind of the good cop, bad cop, abusive spouse. I love you. I hate you. Come here. Let me hug you now let me beat you. And. And that's harmful. So that's my prayer. My secular prayer.

David Dehlin [02:50:33] All right.

John Dehlin [02:50:33] Well, Samantha, it's always lovely to have you. Thank you for joining us. And tell us again how people people find your social media stuff and your coaching practice.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:43] Well, my ex Mormon YouTube channel slash Tik tok everywhere is zelf on the shelf. My personal socials are all at the SAMSPO. And then my faith transition coaching website is samanthashellycoaching.com and that's t H E

John Dehlin [02:50:55] S a M P S O. Right. The SAM spo.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:58] Yeah.

David Dehlin [02:50:59] All right.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:59] The Sam spo.

John Dehlin [02:51:01] All right. And Gerardo, it's so great and such an honor to have you as a colleague here on Mormon Stories. Thank you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:06] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:51:06] Yeah, thanks for. Thanks for preparing this episode. It absolutely wouldn't have happened without you. Not with. With my week, with my month. This would have never happened. It almost didn't. But thank you for making it happen.

Guest [02:51:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:17] Hero. People love both of you. People love having you guys on. So please come back as often as you can. All right, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:24] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:51:25] All right, Samantha. Yeah, we come back. You're coming back soon, right?

David Dehlin [02:51:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:30] Do we announce? I mean, we've got our do it. We've got our Dan Dan band. Bam. Episode. Daniel Spencer coming out soon.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:39] Iconic.

John Dehlin [02:51:40] And what's the interview we've got coming down the pike? Do you want to announce it?

Samantha Shelley [02:51:43] We are interviewing the Tomsters, who is another hilarious social media creator.

John Dehlin [02:51:49] That's like, next week, right?

Samantha Shelley [02:51:51] Yeah. I'm so excited.

John Dehlin [02:51:52] We'll interview.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:53] Love his content.

John Dehlin [02:51:54] We'll interview him next. Him and his wife.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:55] And wife.

Guest [02:51:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:56] Yeah. But. But there's my dad. Hey, dad. Welcome back to My dad's Walking behind you, Samantha. We'll do the interview next week when we release it. It'll probably be three or four weeks out, but anyway. And dad, I see you in the background, dad. It was really great to have you on Mormon Stories. Thanks for. Thanks for joining us, Dad.

David Dehlin [02:52:14] A pleasure being here.

John Dehlin [02:52:16] All right. We love you, dude. All right, well, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Thanks to Nemo as well. Be kind to each other. Please give us super chats. Thanks to JC for the super chat. Right now, you can always donate through. Through YouTube by clicking on the dollar sign and. And throwing us a donation that helps pay for Gerardo's time, Samantha's time, Nemo's time, and mine. You can also. Thanks, Keith for your donation. You can always go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. We lose donations every month for a variety of reasons. Thanks, Carrie Hanson Doty, for your donation. We lose donations every month, so we need donors to replace donors who cancel. So please become a monthly donor if you can. And then also the Facebook platform, you can click on the stars feature and you can donate that way. We're getting. We're getting more and more revenue from Facebook, and so we're trying to invest in Facebook. Tick Tock gives you squat. Tick Tock just doesn't give you anything other than, like, eyeballs. But Facebook pays you. Not as well as YouTube right now, but it's. It's. It's. It's nice. So, anyway, we're grateful for Facebook throwing us some bones here and there. Thanks to you, Gerardo, and. And Julia for the shorts. You guys are helping out a lot with that. Also thanks to Maven. Maven moderated the chat, and we're really grateful for all the work Maven is doing behind the scenes. But. But be kind to each other. Love each other. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com with feedback. Follow us. Please subscribe to us on YouTube. We're getting, like, 2. 2000-2500 new subscribers a month on YouTube. If we follow in that trajectory, we'll have a hundred thousand YouTube subscribers, which is a decent benchmark, especially. Do you get it? Do you get a silver plaque for that?

Samantha Shelley [02:54:06] I'm not sure if they stopped doing it, but I think you do.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:09] Look it up.

John Dehlin [02:54:09] I want my gosh darn silver plaque.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:11] Yeah, you deserve it.

John Dehlin [02:54:12] So everybody. And Samantha, you are.

David Dehlin [02:54:14] You.

John Dehlin [02:54:14] You helped us get onto YouTube. I don't know if you remember. You attended a retreat years ago up in Park City. You're like, john, why aren't you on YouTube?

Samantha Shelley [02:54:22] I had no idea that was.

John Dehlin [02:54:23] Yeah, that was you.

David Dehlin [02:54:23] That was you.

John Dehlin [02:54:25] So, anyway, we have you to thank for that, but you. Please subscribe to us on YouTube, please follow us on. On Facebook, on Tik Tok, on Instagram, subscribe and comment, and that helps with the algorithms. But most importantly, be kind to each other. Love each other and. And thanks for the support. And we'll. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.