Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 777

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John de Lind. It is July 18, 2017 and I have to admit it's a little bit weird for me to be starting another podcast because I just finished an epic five hour podcast interview with Laurie Lee. It was definitely one of my favorite interviews ever where we talked about her experience as a transgender female within Mormonism. She served as a Stake President and as lead architect on temples for the LDS Church for 20 years and it was a wonderful interview and I didn't plan to be doing seven hours worth of podcast interviews in a single day, but here we are. I am just so super excited for today's interview as well, and so thanks for tuning in. We've already got 16 people joining us on Facebook Live, but for those who are joining us either live or asynchronously, we are doing part four in our series called Losing the Lamanites. So we had this idea to talk to various Mormons or post Mormons throughout the world who were raised being told that they were Lamanites, so that they were descendants of Lehi Laman and Lemuel from the Book of Mormon. Maybe they had dark skin, maybe they didn't. Oftentimes they're from North America, Central or South America, or the Caribbean. But in all cases we're trying to process with them not only sort of what their experiences were as Mormons in Latin America, or again as Native Americans or Polynesians, but then also what led to any challenges in faith that they may have experienced. And then finally for these people that I'm interviewing, they no longer believe that the church is true anymore. In some cases they're no longer members. And so we're talking about how they feel having been in many cases given an identity that either maybe they don't view as very healthy or as possibly very damaging, and in many cases false or untrue. Sounds like a heavy and serious and unpleasant topic, but we've had some amazing interview so far. So we first interviewed Vania Moore, who talked about her experiences from Brazil. Definitely one of the most powerful interviews we've ever done where Vania talks about how perfectionism led her to almost want to end her own life. Very powerful interview. Check it out. That's episodes 746 and 747. And then we had Hiram Joe, who is Navajo. He's an artist, a painter, a sensitive and brilliant individual, talking about being raised in the church in New Mexico as a Navajo with his dad being, I think he was stake president and support Hiram Joe's art. He has some amazing artwork that deserves our support. And then the third interview that we did on Losing the Lamanites was was again another really powerful tearjerker, Sarah Newcomb. I just met Sarah and her husband in Dallas when we did a Mormon Stories event there. Sarah comes from the northwest coastal tribes, Tsimshean. I don't know that I'm pronouncing it right, but that was another really powerful episode where Sarah talked about being so earnest and desirous that that she helped fulfill the prophecy that the Lamanites will blossom like a rose and that their skin will turn white and delightsome instead of dark and loathsome. Sarah shared how she would stay out of the sun and grow her hair long and wear long clothes and extra sunscreen to make sure that her skin would never turn darker, even in the summer. And how much shame she internalized during that process. It's worth mentioning, I think, just really briefly, that Sarah has started a new a new blog that may be turned into a podcast at some point, but I just want to make sure that everyone knows about it. I believe it's called Lamanite truth. LamaniteTruthRuthordPress.com I'll get you the exact link, but I'm really excited to announce Sarah's new blogging project where she is going to be talking about the Native American Latin American experience as it relates to Lamanite stuff. So that is set up for today's interview with Gabriel Misla. And before we actually bring Gabriel onto the show, I'm going to just go very quickly through a few quick announcements. August 11th and 12th in Salt Lake City, we're going to be doing a mixed faith marriage retreat with Dr. Julia de Azevedo Hanks and myself. It's almost full. We have close to 40 people. And if you've been delaying registering, register soon because it's about to fill up and we won't have enough people. I'm really excited about that one. September 14th and 15th will be in Seattle, Washington. October 20th, 22nd will be in Sydney, Australia, November 9th through 10th. In the Bay Area, we're looking for nominations for events in 2018. If you want us to come to, let's say, D.C. or Boise or Phoenix or back to Vegas or Houston, wherever you want us to come with our workshops and retreats, we want to come. So email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and let us know if you want us to come to your area. We need to do some events in Salt Lake City and Provo and maybe northern Utah. So if you want to be represented there, just let us know. We're looking for people to help us organize these events and to sort of help us get a sense that we'll have enough attendees to fill the events, although we've never had a problem so far. So if you want an event even in Chicago or Atlanta or wherever, you just need to email us and let us know, and we'll do our best to make it happen. So those are all the announcements for today. We are really excited to have people joining with us on the Internet. We think that that is going to make for a really interesting show. And so as we're getting ready to discuss things, I just want to encourage everybody to please. To please start writing in your questions or comments or feedback. We would love to hear it and we would love to incorporate what you have into what we're going to talk about. It makes it more interactive and fun. Yes. And thanks to my producer. I think it's Cody. Either cody or amy. Lamanitetruth.WordPress.com is the new blog from Sarah Newcombe. So check that out if you care about this kind of stuff. So without any further ado, I'm going to introduce our fourth interview in the Losing the Lamanite series, Gabriel Misla, who was raised in Puerto Rico. So, Gabriel, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Gabriel Misla [00:08:34] Thank you. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] And you're muted. Gabriel, let me just see. I don't know if you muted on your end, but keep talking until I hear you because I'm not hearing you for some reason. And make sure that's not. That's not on my end. Keep talking. There you go. There you go. Now I hear you.

Gabriel Misla [00:08:54] Okay, perfect.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] Was that me or you?

Gabriel Misla [00:08:56] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] Okay, Gabriel, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Gabriel Misla [00:09:00] Thank you. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] So anything you want to correct or add to my very long introduction?

Gabriel Misla [00:09:06] No, that was great. That was great.

Growing Up in Puerto Rico and Joining the Church

John Dehlin [00:09:09] Okay. All right. So you tell us about your Mormon story. Were you born In Puerto Rico?

Gabriel Misla [00:09:16] Yes. 1982. Yes. Born and Raised in Puerto Rico.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] Why are you laughing?

Gabriel Misla [00:09:25] The age.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] Oh, because you're young or what?

Gabriel Misla [00:09:30] Yes, sure.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] How old are you?

Gabriel Misla [00:09:33] I'm going to be 35. This. This two weeks.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] Okay. So are you. Are you a millennial? Do you self identify as a millennial?

Gabriel Misla [00:09:39] Yes, I'm at the beginning of the millennials. 1982, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] That's okay. So, born in Puerto Rico. Were you born under the covenant? Bajo el covien. How do you say it in Spanish? Convenio. Were you born under the covenant or were you.

Gabriel Misla [00:09:55] No, I was a convert to this.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Tell us your story. Tell us your Mormon story.

Gabriel Misla [00:09:58] So my mom was raised Catholic, but you probably know this, in Puerto Rico and other Latin countries, being Catholic doesn't mean really going to church. It's just something that you say. So she always says, I'm Catholic, but don't ask her to go to church. She won't go. And then my dad, he was raised Presbyterian, but he became secular with time when he was young. And so I kind of was raised first. And, you know, in that Puerto Rican Catholic culture, you can't separate both. Latin American culture has a lot of Catholic traditions. And to the point that it's hard to say, well, that's just Catholic tradition, because it's not. It's mixed with depending the country. Right. And yeah. And then my dad kept us, or at least talked to us about like, secularism and, you know, his ideas about religion and things like that. So I grew up not thinking that religion was a good thing.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:11:16] The stories of the Catholic Church too, you learn in school. The Inquisition and things like that. You know, you kind of learn that Catholic Church must not be traditional. True. At all. Must not be a church of God because of the things that they did. So that was my background before I met the church.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Would you have been. Would you have been aware of kind of the pedophilia, child abuse kind of stuff that had gone on, or would you not have been aware of that?

Gabriel Misla [00:11:41] No, I was aware of that. I think everybody was still are.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] So you weren't thinking super good about religion growing up?

Gabriel Misla [00:11:49] No, no, there's. There's something I. A story I tell people when I was kid. This girl that liked me, she. I remember she was like cursing at me for some reason. I realize now that she liked me back then. I couldn't identify that. And I got called to his. Her mom's office that. That worked at the school. She was a social worker. And I remember that the mom asked me, are you a religious person? And I said, no, I don't. I don't go. I don't believe in religions. I don't go to churches. And. And she said, well, my daughter told me that you were cursing at her. And I was like, no, no, it's actually her. And she's like, no, you must be lying because you're not religious and my daughter is. And that was like. That completely, like, discouraged me from, like, going into religion because of that one conversation at that young age. I was probably in fourth, fifth grade.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] That's kind of bigotry, right? Discrimination.

Gabriel Misla [00:12:54] It doesn't just happen in the Mormon church. It happens everywhere.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] Sure.

Gabriel Misla [00:12:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] Okay. So not a lot of great thoughts about religion.

Gabriel Misla [00:13:04] No, the most it was my grandpa was the religion in my life. He always had these books for children with the stories from the Bible and he had Bibles and, you know, and he would make mention God and things like that. So if anything was my grandpa, which is kind of probably what brought me into the church in a way. When he passed away and I was 15, 16, then I started, like, asking friends about religion because his funeral was so sad to me, was the first time somebody like that so close to me died. So I started to, you know, think about next life and those kind of things.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] How old were you again?

Gabriel Misla [00:13:46] Think I was 16.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] Okay. So right around that age of awakening.

Gabriel Misla [00:13:51] Yes, yes. And then. So I started asking for friends, like, what the religion start and things like that. And that's how I got into the church, because I asked my history teacher about his religion, you know, and he shared a bit about. It sounded interesting. Interesting. So I asked him more questions, and then he brought me pamphlets. And one of those pamphlets, I believe it doesn't exist anymore. It doesn't get printed. And it was the one about talking about how many native cultures believed in some sort of God. That sounded like Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] Yeah, yeah. This is a really important part of our history. Growing up. For me, in the 70s and 80s, we would have watched these film strips. I'm forgetting what they're called. Maybe our listeners can post them, but these movies or filmstrips about Quetzalcoatl, the great white God in Mesoamerica, how that really was Jesus. And, you know, they would show these BYU archaeologists going through Mesoamerican temples, and they'd find some little dugout and they'd say this was a baptismal font, clearly. And, you know, they would see some hieroglyphic that had a tree, and it's like this was the tree of Life from the book of Mormon and ancient America speaks, I think it was called books and movies, basically saying if you were Native American, Latin American, you were a descendant of the pure blood of Israel, right?

Gabriel Misla [00:15:34] Yes. And there's one that they didn't include in there, and it's the one from Puerto Rico. So. So there's a story that you learn in school. Turns out, you know, after so many years, I've learned that it's like completely incorrect, but there's a story about this, this Spaniard, his name is Jose Salcedo, if I'm not mistaken. And you learn as a kid in school that supposedly they drowned him, the Indians drowned him, and they waited three days for him to. To wake up. And if he did, then that's how they knew the Spaniards were gods. And if he didn't, then that's how they learned, you know, that he wasn't and they weren't. And that's how they started to fight against him. You know, this. It's just. It's not a true story, but for some reason, people just keep talking about it. So to me, listening to that story my whole life, I. It makes you. It makes a lot of people question if, like, somehow they knew about God or Jesus and things like that because of the relationship, how would they know about the three days and Jesus? So as a history teacher, when he mentions that some. When he mentioned that, then he also mentioned, well, there are people who believe that. I mean, we're at school, so he can't really say things like that. So he just said, well, there are people who believe that maybe, you know, God or Jesus came to the Americas. And that's why I asked him. And that's later when he brought me that pamphlet that explained all that stuff. So it just made sense.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] Was he Mormon then?

Gabriel Misla [00:17:10] Yes, he was.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] He was Mormon.

Gabriel Misla [00:17:13] Yes, he was. So it was. It just. It just made sense. And to the story of that, of those natives doing that to that Spaniard, that Jesus came to America, it was just the more most sensible thing to believe.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] But because why would he just visit those Europeans? Right. Why not? Are those, you know, Middle Easterners? Why not Latin America, too?

Gabriel Misla [00:17:38] Right, right, right. So the Book of Mormon made sense back then, you know, and then. So he gave me. He told me about the Book of Mormon because I asked more questions. And so he gave me the Book of Mormon. I remember reading like 16 chapters. Wow. Because it just sounded like a really cool story, you know. And then after that, then I just went back to him and kept asking questions. So he said, you Know, you should talk to the missionaries. And. And that's when he said, you know, this. You know, I'm from the Mormon Church. And I said, is that like the. Those guys from. From England or something like that, that go in that. Right. Bikes and that. That was. That's what my dad taught back some English church, and it was only white people allowed in that church.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:18:30] Because then that's something we can talk about now or later. Because that's one of the things about the church. There's so many white missionaries, or at least back then in Puerto Rico, that I had no idea that Puerto Ricans went to that church.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Interesting.

Gabriel Misla [00:18:48] It was a church of white people only, that they wouldn't allow anybody else.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:18:53] And so. So he's like, no, no, no, no. I go to that church too. There's tons of Puerto Ricans. And. And so that's how I got to, you know, into the church. Got baptized probably like two months later.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] What'd your parents think?

Gabriel Misla [00:19:07] They didn't want that. Yes. They still hate the church in their minds. You know, the church did a bad thing to me, so. But, you know, it just. I was a kid, I didn't know much, so.

What Converted Gabriel to Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:19:25] And what if you had to, like, break. Break down the main things that converted you? What were they? What were the top three things that really pushed you to be converted? Now that you're looking back?

Gabriel Misla [00:19:37] I always think one was my grandpa dying and thinking about afterlife and, you know, I'd really want to see my grandpa. So the whole thing about families can be forever and I can. You can see your grandpa, you know, was such a beautiful thing to me.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] You love your grandpa.

Gabriel Misla [00:19:54] Yeah. And then second Abuelo.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Right. What'd you call him? Abuelo.

Gabriel Misla [00:19:58] Or what'd you call Abuelito?

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Abuelito. Right. Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:20:02] And then. And then the other part about, you know, the history of Latin America, I mean, you know, it sounded like this book had this hidden history that historians didn't know about. And I always kept thinking, like, how come nobody knows about this? How come nobody has read this? And then the other thing.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] What did you like about the history? Like, did it. That it told you more about who you were, that it. That it said positive things about your ancestors? Or just that it was new and different, you know? What did you love about the history?

Gabriel Misla [00:20:35] It just. It was just. Yeah, it was the whole idea about Jesus coming to America.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Okay. Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:20:41] That whole thing about him coming to America, it just made sense based on all the things that he. That I heard when I was a Kid, okay, just. It was amazing thing to believe, you know, Jesus didn't just go over there, he came over here too. It basically expanded religion, expanded Bible and everything that people believe. And then the third would be the other fact, which is the fact that of being gay and as a 16 year old who was suicidal, who was worried about being known that I was gay and things like that, and trying to not be gay and finding religion as a way, you know, because religious. Religion always promises, you know, you can change, you can change. So, you know, 16 year old, I saw that as a way to actually finally change. Indeed.

Navigating Same-Sex Attraction as a Young Member

John Dehlin [00:21:39] So what was it like to discover feelings of same sex attraction or a gay identity in the mid-90s in Puerto Rico?

Gabriel Misla [00:21:51] It was hard. It's not like it is now. I mean, the way people talk about being gay or gay people, it was shameful to just be one. And I lived in a small town, Isabela, that's where I'm from. And that's 40,000 people. A lot of people know each other. I pretty much went to school with the same people from kindergarten until high school, so. And they, you know, made fun of me and things like that because back then I was more flamboyant than I, you know, than now. So I got teased my whole life for it. So I really hated the idea that I. That I was gay or that people would just say that I was gay. So, yeah, I didn't want to. I don't. So the mortgage.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Were you. Was it unsafe for you to be. To be gay in Puerto Rico at the time?

Gabriel Misla [00:22:49] Yes. I got beat up all the time.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] They thought so. They thought your friends were kind of. You didn't. Did you tell them or just kind of figured?

Gabriel Misla [00:22:58] No, in my mind, I was not gay.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] Okay, but they thought you were because of how you acted.

Gabriel Misla [00:23:05] Yes. And in my mind, obviously, yes, I like guys, but I just always thought, well, I bet I just find them attractive and other guys can also find them attractive. They just don't want to accept it. But that was not the case. And they saw something I couldn't see. My. The movement on my hands. I don't know what it was, but I got beat up all the time for it. And so I really hated it. I didn't want to be in school. I remember telling my mom, I just don't want to be in school. I don't want to go back and get mad at me for it. But you were bullied all the time.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] I'm so sorry.

Gabriel Misla [00:23:46] So it was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] And so Mormonism was A way to avoid that and to not be gay. It was a way to hetero yourself as much as possible.

Gabriel Misla [00:23:56] Yes. It's like fresh water. And.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] What do you mean? What do you mean, like fresh water?

Gabriel Misla [00:24:00] Well, opportunity to change to, you know, that God would convert me and make me a straight man and new things, you know, learning new things with the book Mormon and things like that, and, you know, the opportunity to believe that there was eternal life and things like that. So, yeah, it was just like drinking fresh water.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Wow. Okay. And so you joined at age 16. What was the. Like, the young. The mutual was. What was it called? Mutual. What'd you call it? Young men's or women?

Gabriel Misla [00:24:34] Yes, mutual.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Did you have a good branch or ward?

Gabriel Misla [00:24:38] So it was a branch. Not a lot of people in that branch, Probably. I think it was like 15. Maybe the most was 30 people on a Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Whoa. In the whole. Not just youth, in the whole branch.

Gabriel Misla [00:24:53] So there was not a lot of young people. There was only one other young girl that went to school with me, and, you know, we became friends, actually, more. She was not much of my friend until I joined the church. And to be honest, it's different. It's not like church here in Utah. Over there, since the church is so small, people, like, really support each other and it becomes like family. So I remember the first day going into church. It was like the most beautiful experience ever because people just were so excited that somebody new was there, and it was a killer until today. I mean, I love those people, and I hope they see this one of these days, you know, but, yeah, these are people who I love very much.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] And they loved you when you came into the branch.

Gabriel Misla [00:25:50] Yes, yes. I felt basically from going from being bullied by everybody to finding a home or someplace where everybody loved me. Everybody didn't care. They wanted to support me. They wanted. They wanted me to spend time with them. And it was just. It was just an amazing experience.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] You were probably the only kid that passed the sacrament, huh?

Gabriel Misla [00:26:13] Pretty much. And this other kid that was the brother of that young woman I was talking about that went to school with me.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] So it's like you divided up the chapel and half of you got one side and one of you got the other.

Gabriel Misla [00:26:27] Yeah, pretty much. It was him. It was. His name is Ali. It was him and I for the Aaronic priesthood class, the branch president was our teacher. That was it. Wow. It is.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] So where is this. This. This pueblo in Puerto Rico? Like in the island? Where would it be?

Gabriel Misla [00:26:46] Northwest.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:26:48] Northwest people are familiar with Puerto Rico A lot of people are familiar with Aguadilla because of the airport there. And I'm just the next one, so.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] Okay. All right. So you have this great, wonderful youth experience, I guess, in your Rama in Puerto Rico.

Gabriel Misla [00:27:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] What comes next?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:10] I did seminary for one year the last year.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] By yourself?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:15] Yeah, and her, you know, me and her. And it was her mom that was teaching us.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] And then this is all in Spanish, right?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:23] It's all in Spanish, yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:27:25] All right. But by the way, I mean, sometimes we would have white families come because of the military base next. Next door, so.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:27:39] And then after that, then, you know, I went to the university. First year of university, and that's met new friends, life was different and new place.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] And what was the university called?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:50] University of Puerto Rico.

John Dehlin [00:27:51] And what city is that in?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:53] In Rio Piedras.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:27:56] It's San Juan, but. But they call it that. Eric's called Rio Piedra.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Okay. And were you like, a really good student, an average student? Not so good, like.

Gabriel Misla [00:28:05] Yeah, I was a pretty good student, yes. Pretty good grades. And so I got accepted to one of the most prestigious, prestigious universities in Puerto Rico, so.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] And your English is phenomenal. Did you learn English growing up or what?

Gabriel Misla [00:28:20] Yes, as best as I could. And then, you know, I think I just got better with time. Okay, you didn't.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Your. Your primary and secondary education wasn't in English, was it?

Gabriel Misla [00:28:33] Or was it in Puerto Rico, you grew up having one English class every year.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Okay. Because it's a. I guess it's a protectorate or. What is it?

Gabriel Misla [00:28:41] It's a territory of the United States.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:28:44] Yes. So. So you have to learn English and it's just one class and it's not. It's not the best, but you learn something.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] Do most Puerto Rican end up speaking English pretty well then? Or.

Gabriel Misla [00:28:57] I think the newer or the younger generations. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] Ok.

Gabriel Misla [00:29:02] Generations, not really.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:29:04] Are learning more, and then some move to the United States and come. So it just. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] So what'd you study at the university?

Gabriel Misla [00:29:14] I was just doing generals that first year, and I got into institute. Not only was I the president of seminary class because, you know, there were

John Dehlin [00:29:22] two,

Gabriel Misla [00:29:24] and then later there was one more, but that was it. And then later, then I was the president of institute too, but it was a larger group, maybe six or seven of us, maybe a little bit more.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] So big. Yes.

The Church in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic

Gabriel Misla [00:29:39] The church is so small in Puerto Rico. I checked on their website. They claim 23,000 members.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:29:48] And the church started 70 years ago. Exactly 70 years ago. The 70 years for 23,000 members. Like 333 members a year, which they don't, you know, they didn't get that.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] Every year Dominican Republic has more Mormons, right?

Gabriel Misla [00:30:05] Yes, they do. I think 1% of the population now.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] So why. Why the difference? What's the difference between the two countries, do you think? Are they close to each other? Are they even close to each other?

Gabriel Misla [00:30:15] Yes, it's the next island. But it's a totally different situation, you know, one Puerto Rico. It's the United States.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] So socioeconomically, it's much more like the United States.

Gabriel Misla [00:30:30] Yes, the way we think are lost, things like that. So it's pretty much the United States. And then the Dominican Republic is a totally different country. I mean, our cultures are similar, but because of the inability of them to just fly to Puerto Rico unless they have the paperwork and things like that, you know, they have to cross illegally most of the time. So I think that has made both countries to not have connections in terms of culture. So, yes, there are definitely things are different. And I went on a mission there.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] To Dominican Republic?

Gabriel Misla [00:31:12] Yes, that's where I live. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] So did my nephew, Thomas Hatton. I don't know if you know Thomas, but.

Gabriel Misla [00:31:17] No, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] So do you call it the Doctor?

Gabriel Misla [00:31:20] The Doctor, yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] So you went to the Doctor on your mission?

Gabriel Misla [00:31:24] Yes. And. And the cool thing about it was that that was in most mission. Most. Most. That that year I went on a mission that was the year until then worth where Puerto Rico had sent the most missionaries ever in a year. And most of them were like people I knew. And most of them went to California or El Salvador or something like that. It was only three Puerto Ricans on that mission.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Wow.

Gabriel Misla [00:31:55] That was it. There's not that many missionaries. I leave the church. There's not that many members. Even though they claim the 23,000. I believe there should be maybe 3,000 or less active members of the church in Puerto Rico.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] That's about a stake, basically.

Gabriel Misla [00:32:11] Yes. And right now they have five stakes and two districts, and that's in one of the districts is the Virgin Islands, the U.S. virgin Islands and the U.K. virgin Islands, too.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] So Puerto Rico's not a stronghold for Mormonism in Latin America.

Gabriel Misla [00:32:30] They thought it would be. I think they're losing money with it. The missions are completely different compared to the Dominican Republic. In Puerto Rico, missionaries have cars, a lot of them in the Doctor, they won't even have cars. It's hard for the missionaries in Puerto Rico. People really believe that this is just a white church and it's not like the doctor. The doctor people doesn't know much about the church. They see the missionaries. You know, coming from America, I remember dealing with some of them thinking that somehow they would just get papers and the church will help them go to the United States. So it's totally different. Puerto Rico is way more secular than people think. There's not that many Catholic people as the doctor and it all has to do with American culture. The Protestants going to Puerto Rico way back when the United States invaded and teaching people not to believe in the Catholic Church. So there's more Protestants and there's more of those ideas. So people just are more educated maybe, and things like that. So it's a totally different situation. And it's really hard for missionaries to baptize. They don't get as many people baptized in the church in Puerto Rico. I think I baptized like around 50 people on my mission. And in the Dr. That's a really good number. And missionaries in Puerto Rico, they'll be lucky if they baptize two people and sometimes one family. That's like, very lucky for them.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] I'm going to take a long shot here. One of my dear childhood friends and my roommate my freshman year at BYU was named Monte McCotter and Monty was killed as a missionary in Puerto Rico. I'm wondering if you would have ever heard about that. It might have been before your time. It was in 1990.

Gabriel Misla [00:34:45] Yeah. I joined the church 1999, probably.

John Dehlin [00:34:48] Okay, so yeah, you wouldn't heard about that. Okay. Wanted to try. Okay. So Puerto Rico's not super strong, but you had a great mission, is that right?

Gabriel Misla [00:34:58] Yes, I really. I learned a lot from the Dominican people. A lot of, you know, I'm not one of those people that would say, you know, mission was a terrible thing. I mean, I regret what. The things that I was teaching, but I don't regret going there and what I learned from them. I believe I've learned more values from them and more beautiful things than I ever learned from the church.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] Like what?

Gabriel Misla [00:35:27] This is one good example. People over there, if they were eating and you walked into their homes while they were eating, they offer their plates, they will offer their food, they will stop eating and say, you know, this, you know, your guests, you can have my food. That's amazing. And the way people are just so happy and friendly and smiles. They just smile all the time. And the members, like, it's just people there are just so humble. So they don't see their poor, but. But they don't see things like we do. I felt. I felt rich. And I'm a poor person. My family is poor. When I went there, I felt rich compared to the people there in the terms of, you know, money. But it was just amazing. These. These people have, like, big hearts. They love everybody. They just. They. They're just amazing like that. That was the way they don't care about money like we do. The church just seems like a money machine. And the members care so much about being rich and becoming wealthy. And they are not like that. They just value different things. They value family, they value friendship, they value neighbors. It's just. It's a totally different experience. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] Okay, so you love the. You love the people, the doctor and they change your life in some ways.

Gabriel Misla [00:37:14] Yes. I really felt that way my whole life, that they changed the way I approach things and probably for forever. Yeah. So I can't complain about that. I will complain about what we were teaching to these people, how my. Some. Some of my companions were racist to the people. And I'll give you an example. We had maids, because over there, money is just used dollars just are, you know, so good. So we had maids. We had sisters from the church who come and clean our clothes, do our breakfast, do our lunch, and they would leave and we would pay them from our allowance. And to me, there were just sisters from the church helping us so that it was easier for us to do the missionary work. For some of these missionaries, they were not sisters from the church helping us. To them, they were basically like slaves. Like, the way they treated them, yell at them, make them, like, cook food if it didn't taste good so that they would just get a new plate and just. It was just so awful. It was.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Now, were these Puerto Ricanos or were these North Americans gringos?

Gabriel Misla [00:38:42] Most of the people I live with were from Utah.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Okay, so you weren't really impressed with how respectful the Utahns were towards the help?

Gabriel Misla [00:38:54] Yes. As a mission, as somebody coming from the church in Puerto Rico. Word. And you are being taught that the church is perfect and, you know, the members are, you know, change, and they're much better people than other people. To come to a mission where it's full of, like, these kids coming from the headquarters of the church and they act so much worse. It was just awful. Like, I just couldn't believe these people were sent on a mission. That's how bad it was. I just. I couldn't. I was. I just was baffled by Bishop sending these kids on missions because how selfish they were, how bad they were, how, like this. Yeah, it was just awful.

Lamanite Identity and Book of Mormon Racial Teachings

John Dehlin [00:39:42] Now tell us about when you were first exposed to the teachings about the Lamanites and the dark skin and the curse and all that. When do you remember first being exposed to all those teachings?

Gabriel Misla [00:39:55] Reading the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] So you remember how you. 16.

Gabriel Misla [00:40:00] Yeah. 16, 17.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] You're reading it and what's going through your mind as you're reading about this stuff?

Gabriel Misla [00:40:06] I always felt uncomfortable with it. I think a lot of people in people, because I would go out also with the missionaries in Puerto Rico just to help them out as a member. And people really didn't like that. Didn't like those. That part about people just turning dark because of a curse. And they also didn't like the part about Nephi cutting a man's beheading a man just to get some plagues. People really did not like that. When missionaries will just read from the Book of Mormon to investigators.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Okay, and what did you think? I mean, you joined. What did you think about all that?

Gabriel Misla [00:40:49] Well, let's say this. What the missionary that was teaching me, there were two missionaries, all red and Smith, he claimed that he was a descendant of Joseph Smith. He actually kind of looked like Joseph Smith. So Elder Smith, one. And this is how I got into the church, told me one time, you know, you don't have to believe these things we're saying. You know, if you pray to God and God, God will give you an answer and you will know that the church is true and you will feel the certain way. And, you know, they give you the whole speech about that. And so I did that as a convert and I got my response. You know, I got those feelings that you feel so great. And. And I thought that was it. I thought that it was the true church. And so reading things like that didn't make sense to me. But I had to trust that response from God that it was a true church, that there was just me, I wasn't understanding something. But somehow God knew what was going on and he did it.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Right, but you remember not understanding that.

Gabriel Misla [00:42:03] Yes, yes. Like it just was off.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] What part did you read? Do you remember reading a specific part that seemed off and what you thought when you read it?

Gabriel Misla [00:42:13] Well, I mean, I remember that night reading 16 chapters, but I don't think that's where it talks about it, but I just. It was just off that God, which is make people dark, and then reading the whole Book of Mormon later, then reading that, he actually turned them back white. Not me, not the same group, other groups, just because they behave certain way so they started to turn white.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] You didn't like that?

Gabriel Misla [00:42:42] No, I mean it just, it was, it just doesn't make sense. Right. Why would God do such a thing? And why, why does skin color makes any sense with the whole picture of the whole story? Why cursing people with something like that, it's just so ridiculous and it's just not. And I knew signs enough to, to understand that it's not just the skin, it's the way people look too. So you're telling me that God is changing people from like certain features to a completely Caucasian look, that that's just off?

John Dehlin [00:43:15] That's right. Did they still have the Latin feed? The Latin features, but with light skin?

Gabriel Misla [00:43:20] Yeah. What's the eye color?

John Dehlin [00:43:22] Are they still brown eyed?

Gabriel Misla [00:43:23] Right, right. The church just doesn't. What, what is going on? Like, it just doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] What would a, what would a, what would a Latino with dark brown hair and dark brown eyes and then white skin. I wonder what that would look like. Would it look weird?

Gabriel Misla [00:43:42] I don't know. I mean there's so many like that. It just. But in my mind I was thinking like, you know, what are you talking about? Like they're just making them with blue eyes and blonde hair.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] Right, right. Do their, does their nose change?

Gabriel Misla [00:43:56] Yeah, changes. Like what is this? But you know, somehow I had to trust that, you know, okay. And by. I just became a fan of church because back in my mind, being raised as a secular person and always like loving science and things like that, always had in my mind certain, certain idea that if the church, the Catholic Church, back in the day, everybody believed it was the true church and it was the Church of God. And having learned that that was not the case through history and what scientists did, like Galileo Galilei and how the church treated them. And in the back of my mind I always had this idea like, you know, I need to still read more about this church just in case, just in case any of this is just not true. But that idea that I had the answer from God from back then, it always kept me in the church. But I still read and read and read and on my mission I kept reading and doctrines of salvation and, and these awful things about black people and Joe Smith giving the priesthood and to women and all these things that I will bring up to my companions on the mission. And they either never heard about or didn't like the way I was talking about it, but they were still nice to me because I was a nice kid. So, you know, I knew more, more than at Least the people I live with on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] The. The Utahns.

Gabriel Misla [00:45:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] And this was Doctrines de Salvacion, the Spanish version of Joseph Fielding Smith. Weren't there, like, three volumes or something? Yes, I had those. I read those on my mission.

Gabriel Misla [00:45:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] And.

Gabriel Misla [00:45:50] And you were supposed to read those. And then the Miracle Forgiveness, which is. Which was a book that, like, scared the crap out of me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Because you did you read that?

Gabriel Misla [00:46:02] Yes, I read the whole thing.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] Did you understand what it meant and what it was saying? And.

Gabriel Misla [00:46:07] Yeah, and it scared. It scared me, you know, because I kept praying every day on my mission that God would just take those feelings away, but obviously it never happened. And the last book, I mean, the last chapter is the nice one where, you know, you read about, you know, God can forgive you and things like that. But reading that was awful. Like, it really scarred me as a missionary. I was afraid to even, like, be open and say, like, you know, I'm having these feelings and I'm having these thoughts. So I wouldn't even mention any of that because of that book. We were supposed to read all of them as part of, like, this educational thing where it was like, either you were telestial, terrestrial, celestial missionary, and if you were celestial, you were supposed to read certain books, treasure more books, and Celestial more. So I did the whole thing all the way to Celestial and got my certificate as a really good missionary. But, yes, these things, they made me question, little by little, the church and things that I was learning about the church. And then I came back from a mission. I coming back to a place like Puerto Rico where there's not that many members, there's no temple, there's no support structure. I felt lonely, and I felt I need to go to Utah, I need to move.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] There's no temple in Puerto Rico. Or there wasn't.

Gabriel Misla [00:47:42] There were plans. But as soon as the growth started to happen in the doctor with the priesthood ban being removed, then they decided to just do the temple and the doctor.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:47:57] And then they abandoned the idea of Puerto Rico.

John Dehlin [00:48:00] Really quick, let's check in with our listeners. Melissa writes, the miracle of forgiveness is one that left me thinking I should be dead. That's a sad, sad report. Yeah. Oslo Justo writes, I experienced the same thing with missionaries from Spain looking down on the Mexican members, elders and sisters. So, Oslo Justo, there's a hymn. Oz Tula Justo, right?

Gabriel Misla [00:48:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 778

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. All right, so you decide you need to go to Utah, Gabriel.

Gabriel Misla [00:00:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] You need to go to Sion, as they would say, right, Yeon?

Gabriel Misla [00:00:50] Exactly. Because you need to go to. Come here so that you can do the temple and things, you know, and meet the members and be in supportive wards. So. So that you don't lose your faith and you don't go away. Because it's what happens to most people in Puerto Rico anyways. So, yeah, I came over here. I was like 21, 22 when I came over here.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] Now is that easy to come over or was it hard?

Gabriel Misla [00:01:17] No, I mean, Puerto Rico is part of the United States, so we're American citizens. Puerto Ricans have been American citizens since 1917.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] I'm embarrassed that I didn't realize that, but I didn't realize that, so I'm glad we learned it.

Gabriel Misla [00:01:30] Yes, that's. That's a hard thing for me too, because a lot of people, I always have to explain that, that, that we're born citizens of the United States and in most people minds were not, you know, we're just Puerto Ricans and it's. We're just the same as Hawaii. We're just citizens of a different nation.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] I think we don't understand the difference between statehood and territoriality or whatever.

Gabriel Misla [00:01:54] Well, territory, just like Utah was a territory before it became a state. That's our situation right now.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] You're a citizen, but you can't vote, basically.

Gabriel Misla [00:02:04] Exactly, exactly. I can vote in Utah because then I become a resident of the state of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:02:10] And it's the same if somebody from born in the United States and then moves to Puerto Rico, he becomes a resident of the state of Puerto Rico. So voila, he can't vote for president anymore.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] So it's interesting.

Gabriel Misla [00:02:21] It's a weird thing.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] And then Puerto Rico pays taxes. You still pay taxes to the state

Gabriel Misla [00:02:26] taxes, only we don't pay federal tax.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Oh, okay. Okay, that's good. And then there's always. There's always talk of Puerto rico becoming the 51st state, right?

Gabriel Misla [00:02:34] Yes. I doubt that's. Going to happen. And some people might disagree, but yes, there's always that talk. I doubt Republicans will ever agree with that. And Democrats don't even try to go there. And even though people like, they make these referendums like the one from this year, only 23% of the population voted. Everybody else in protest didn't go to vote. So then the Statehood won by 95% with only 23% of the population. So it was skewed because only those people from that party showed up. And so that's not gonna go through Congress. It's just ridiculous. Okay, right now.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] All right, so you join. So you come to Zion and what happens?

Gabriel Misla [00:03:22] It was hard. It was so hard. The racism, getting used to everything. The church is a completely different church. It's not like the church in Puerto Rico. Just nothing like the church in Puerto Rico over there. People really, it's like family over here. I started to listen. Who is, who is like this and who was like that in the church? And you know, don't trust this person. There's animosity between these student wards or family wards. No, I was going at the beginning to a family ward and then.

John Dehlin [00:03:56] Because in Salt Lake City or.

Gabriel Misla [00:03:58] Yes, Taylorsville.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Okay, okay. And you're hearing a lot of gossip and negativity that you didn't experience in Puerto Rico.

Gabriel Misla [00:04:05] Yes, yes. It's a totally different atmosphere. And later I went to the institute awards and that was quite a thing.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] How so?

Moving to the United States and Doubts Begin

Gabriel Misla [00:04:18] Testimony meetings. In Puerto Rico, testimony meetings means that you're testifying like in court, that you know, the church is true because God, you know, answer your prayers and you know, you got to respond and, and, or miracle happens, you're a witness of God, you know, so you're testifying. It makes sense. Over here it was people talking about their dogs or grandparents. And I'm so happy because of my dog and I'm so happy because of my grandmother and I'm so it was all about being grateful about things that nobody ever said. You know, I asked, I asked God if it was true or not. It was. It was just so different.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] So maybe a little bit more cultural, a little bit less faith based or doctrinal. Is that what you're saying?

Gabriel Misla [00:05:12] Yeah, yeah. Because the church is teaching people go and pray and find out if it's true or not. And people don't do that. People just think it's true because their parents taught them that it's true and they feel good and they go to church and everybody's happy and yeah, nobody, nobody really tries to find out if it's true or not. And that's, that's, that's why converse over there, it's just a totally different experience. And another thing is just the way the, the way in the church it's set up in Puerto Rico, it's, it's to believe everything the church says. So the church teaches that Lamanites existed, or the church teaches that. Joe Smith over here, you meet members who don't believe most of the stuff that the church teaches, but they like the church, so they go to church. That's just not, like, common in Puerto Rico. If you start act in that way, you usually leave the church.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Okay. And I'll just say that I know that I desperately wanted to know if the church was true. And I couldn't get an answer for so long that I had to kind of convince myself that I believed it even when I couldn't get the answer. So, I mean, I respect that you had that experience. And I would just say I do think there are at least many Utahns or Mormons in the US that really do try and. Or that believe they've received that witness. But I can also see that Utah is in some ways its own church and that things are very different outside of Utah and outside of the US Than they are sometimes inside. So I just want to sort of talk about both perspectives. So how long did you last faithful

Gabriel Misla [00:07:09] in the US I probably always. 27, probably 28. When I started to just leave the church, what happened?

John Dehlin [00:07:20] Like, did something happen or did it just slowly over time?

Gabriel Misla [00:07:24] Yeah, over time, just learning about the things, the history of the church, the way the church started acting about Proposition 8 in California. I just. Things just didn't make sense, and it just felt like there were no revelations. And here I am as a suicidal young man dealing with. Trying to kill myself in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] Wait, how did that happen? Wait, we skipped that part. What happened?

Gabriel Misla [00:07:53] Well, I mean, remember two years on your mission, praying every. Every day for God to change you, and then nothing happens. You come to Utah hoping, well, maybe if I go to the temple more and things. And still nothing happens. And no matter what you do, nothing really happens. And now by this point, I'm 26, 27, I'm not married, I don't have kids. People keep asking about things, and at this point, I feel like I don't know what else I can explain to people, but that I'm gay. And I don't want to say that because I don't want to accept that fact. So I, you Know, I talked to the. To not even to my branch president. I remember I spoke with the state president because I didn't think my branch president will understand. And actually the stake president said, well, go to the singles ward. This bishop actually will help you because his son, it's gay as well. I went with that bishop and he sent me to therapy and things like that. And to these evergreen groups, you probably know about them. You were supposed to go to these meetings and there were secret meetings and nobody knew about them. And you talk and everybody gave each other a hug and everybody basically confessed that they were homosexuals and how they struggle with it and how they still wanted to be faithful members and to see people who were in their 60s and 80s and 90s, some of them married, some of them not. And the way that they felt still and that nothing changed. They were married, they were old, and they were still gay. If anything, that convinced me that it was never going to happen. And so my next question was like, well, if we are supposed to be this way for our lives, what's our purpose? And how come these prophets are not even asking questions to God about this? How come we. It's not that hard. Joe Smith, every time he had a question, would just go and pray and get a response. How come we cannot get one for this subject? How come they can't just get a revelation about it and we have to question like, and give ideas on why is it this way or not? It's just ridiculous. And eventually it just depressed me to the point that I was suicidal. And I remember I ended up at the hospital in Provo three days. They thought I was at that point where I would kill myself. And so going to the hospital changed me because the therapist there spoke with me and it just changed my perspective. And I started to just leave the church because I couldn't find comfort in a church like this. And then that's when I started reading more about history that make everything that we were taught just so doubtful. And one of the things was the Lamanite thing, because Puerto Rico gets the church 70 years ago, 1940, something. 47, right. And they start giving. Giving the priesthood to members as soon as they got baptized over there. And DNA evidence shows, and especially history of Puerto Ricans, like, if the church actually cared about going to a place and exploring the history and stuff like that, they would have never given the priesthood to anybody in Puerto Rico because everyone somehow has a black relative. There's a saying that's so popular, it says. Which translated would be like. And Your grandma, where she at? Which basically is trying to.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] What does that mean? What does that mean?

Gabriel Misla [00:11:54] What they try to mean. And it comes from a poem about this subject. It's because lots of people in Puerto Rico, they'll look white and they'll say, oh yeah, my family's so white, and things like that. But there's always people in their family that are black. So the whole saying is about. About that fact that everybody in Puerto Rico has black in them.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] What. What percentage of Puerto Rico do you think is black?

Gabriel Misla [00:12:28] It's hard to say. So people really skewed the numbers during the last. Because people really think they're white. So most people in Puerto Rico, I believe they're mulatto. They're mixed black and white. But when you go to the Wikipedia about that subject, it will say that most of the population in Puerto Rico is white, which is not true. Because if you're mulatto and you have like straight hair and things like that, then people start thinking they're just white.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] Right. But is there a significant population of black people in Puerto Rico? Because you would have to have black people there to make children, right?

Gabriel Misla [00:13:06] Yeah. And this is the thing, like if the Puerto Rico is older than the United States, it's 500 years old or more. Actually more than 500 years old. So Indians are there. They get killed within the first 100 years.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] So there were Native American, Native Puerto Ricans.

Gabriel Misla [00:13:23] Yeah, the Tainos. And they got killed, you said. Yeah, you know, by different reasons. You know, they murdered by the Spaniards or slavery or disease. Yeah. So within less than 100 years, they were all gone.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] Oh, wow. All gone.

Gabriel Misla [00:13:40] Yes. They were even brought from Mexico at one point. Natives from Mexico for work. And so the only solution was let's just bring people from Africa. So they started bringing slaves. These are 400 years at least, of slaves to the point that it was a black nation. It was just like the doctor where everybody was black. It is in the 1880s or 70s where there's an influx of Europeans coming into Puerto Rico for the railroad and different reasons. And here comes the Germans and the French and all these people that basically changed Puerto Rico. It's no more a black nation. There's more white people. I mean, where I grew up, my family grew up. You can see the families have French last names and my family is an Italian last name. So there's a lot of of that because of the railroad. And it changed Puerto Rico from being a completely black nation until being a more diverse nation. So to believe in those last 100 years or more that people would just stay white and people stay black. That's not true.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Right. Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:15:01] Okay. So here's the church who is banning everybody from the priesthood in the United States and opens the church in Puerto Rico and gives the priesthood to everybody that looks white in Puerto Rico, not knowing that everybody has black blood in Puerto Rico. But they didn't do that in the doctor because to them, the doctor is a black nation. So they didn't open the doctor until the priesthood ban was removed. Things like that made me question what the church was doing.

Racism, the Priesthood Ban, and Deeper Research

John Dehlin [00:15:32] The.

Gabriel Misla [00:15:33] The idea that God was basically a limited God. That's what they're teaching, that he's unable to see the history, the race, the culture of other nations. It's just an American God. That's what they're selling. That's what the church sells. So also an American church with an American view and an American God who is unable to see anything else past that. He's limited by its own borders. And we're all supposed to believe that we need to go, that in the future we're all going to go to the United States, the promised land of God, and have Zion there. And it's hard for people to believe that in Puerto Rico and in other Latin American nations when the United States has had so much intervention in these countries, especially Puerto Rico, where they have massacred people there. They have killed people who believed in the independence of Puerto Rico and things like that. When you know the history of Puerto Rico, it's hard for me to say, well, yeah, the United States, it's the promised land. But the church still teaches that, you know, the Constitution is the Constitution of God. God made that Constitution and the founding fathers were all in by God. And these things. The church will not admit it, but these things are racist. They're racist in nature. And they just show. They clearly show how this church does not know what they're doing. If they were led by God, God would know these details and would let the prophets know, you know, don't do that. Don't, don't go to Puerto Rico yet, you know, because I haven't given the priests to anybody. And. And now we learned that, you know, the whole thing was a racist thing, you know, because of the essays of the church. And now we have to believe it was all racism. So therefore it was never doctrine of the church.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] Yeah. Okay, so in. So what year was this that you were reading all these things when you were 27 or whatever?

Gabriel Misla [00:17:56] Yeah, I mean, I started on my mission, but I Never got so deep until, like, I came here to Utah, went to institute, for example, and took a pearl grape prize class and learned how it doesn't even. It's not even Egyptian. I mean, it's not even a real translation from Egyptian. So it just took time. It was slowly. I was learning this. So by 26, 27, I knew there were so many things that just didn't make sense in the church.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] And you were attending Evergreen and becoming suicidal.

Gabriel Misla [00:18:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Okay. And what year. What year was that? What year were you? 27, 28.

Gabriel Misla [00:18:44] So 34 now. So that's prior. 2011.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] Six years ago. Okay. All right. 2011. Okay. At some point did you start learning about the polygamy and the polyandry and the book of Abraham and all that stuff?

Gabriel Misla [00:19:00] I mean, I learned about the polygamy back in Puerto Rico when I joined the church. And that that was one of those things. I'm like, what? Like it's true what people say. It's actually true. But that the missionaries explained. Oh, but it was, you know, they always give it the same reason that. But, you know, there were more women than men, so God had to give all those women so that those men could protect those women. But, you know, that's not the. That's not the true story. It was a mess. And to learn, actually, I learned about the polyandry, I think it was last year. Okay. Because of your podcast. Because it was somebody around. I think it was December of maybe last year or the year before, where you're talking to someone who left the church because, like, right away, because he read the CES letter. I can't remember his name, but when I heard that podcast, I was like, I need to read the CES letter. And that's when I found out polyandry.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] That was pretty recent.

Gabriel Misla [00:20:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] Okay. So around 27, 28. That's when you. Do you just stop attending church or what do you do?

Gabriel Misla [00:20:09] Yes, I just attending church.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] And at that point, did you. Would you have said, I don't believe anymore as well?

Gabriel Misla [00:20:17] I still believed in God. I just started to believe maybe the church is not true. Okay. And, you know, but yeah, I still believe in things. And my hope it was that, you know, God loves me, you know, the way. I am a laymanite.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] Okay. Okay.

Patriarchal Blessings, Cultural Tensions, and Coffee

Gabriel Misla [00:20:39] One thing I should mention, too, about that whole layman I thing, it's the patriarchal blessings in Puerto Rico.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] No, no, no, let's go through. You put together an outline, and I hope you have it in front of you, because I would love you to just take us through that 13 point outline of how race and lineage is handled in Puerto Rico. Do you mind talking us through that? Because I think it'd be a great addition to the podcast.

Gabriel Misla [00:21:06] Yeah. So I mentioned about the part of the DNA, you know, that obviously people, everybody has black in them in Puerto Rico. So it was such a ridiculous decision for a church that was trying to avoid, not have black people in the church to actually like open the church in Puerto Rico. That's one of the things I mentioned. The other thing was the patriarchal blessings, because the patriarchs where basically if you look white, they make you part of the. Of Ephraim. And if you're darker in Puerto Rico, then they'll make you Manasseh.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] That feels very racist.

Gabriel Misla [00:21:47] It is, it is. And it was so ridiculous and the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:21:52] So were you Ephraim or Manasseh?

Gabriel Misla [00:21:54] Were you Ephraim?

John Dehlin [00:21:55] You were white enough.

Gabriel Misla [00:21:56] Yes, White enough for them to say, oh, he's from. Okay, then everybody on my mission was from Manasseh because they were Dominicans and they were dark.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Oh, my gosh. That feels like the cast. That feels like the caste systems in

Gabriel Misla [00:22:08] India is the most ridiculous thing now that I think about it. You know, back then I didn't think much about it, but it's just so ridiculous. That's how they do it. There's the racism still in the church and it's just so weird.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] Were you happy that you were Ephraim and not Manasseh? Were you like, oh, wow. Or did you care? Did you want to be in Manasseh?

Gabriel Misla [00:22:29] Yes, because most of the missionaries are Ephraim. You know those missionaries from Utah and you want to be like, Everybody wants to be like those white missionaries from Utah.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] That's so effed up. Oh, my gosh.

Gabriel Misla [00:22:42] So to be. It was an honor to be Ephraim. I was so happy that I was part of Ephraim.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] And those poor Dominicans, like, yeah, I'm an asset.

Gabriel Misla [00:22:51] Yeah. They. I'm not sure if they understood the whole racism or not, but yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] Okay. All right. That's gross. Okay, keep going.

Gabriel Misla [00:23:01] And then another thing I mentioned, and I mentioned it before, it was the how you feel unique in Puerto Rico. You feel unique because you're different. You're a Mormon and there's no Mormons in Puerto Rico. That's a rare church or rare thing to be. So it's unique. It's unique. You actually want to stay in the church in Puerto Rico because it really makes you feel special.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] And I don't think you mentioned this. Or maybe you did. Your outline says that leaders tended to be Ephraim and not Manasseh. Is that what you wrote?

Gabriel Misla [00:23:37] Yeah. Basically the leaders were whiter in Puerto Rico.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Even though they're Puerto Ricanos. They were still.

Gabriel Misla [00:23:43] Yes. My stake president was a white man.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:23:47] So he just moved to the island with his wife and yeah, he was a white.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] It was harder to be in leadership if you were dark skinned.

Gabriel Misla [00:23:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:23:55] There was only one branch or ward that I knew and it was because they were all Dominicans and it was the Dominican ward. And I had no idea why they had to have their own ward and they couldn't just, like, mix them with us. But for some reason, Dominicans had to have their own war back then. I hope it doesn't exist anymore. And so the bishop was, was a black man. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] Okay. All right.

Gabriel Misla [00:24:19] And so, yeah, it's because in Puerto Rico, there's people, people still have belief in colorism. You know, if you're white, you're better than you're. If you're dark. That's something that we all recognize and we talk about it. And people don't, don't understand sometimes that they're, they're being racist in a way because of that. So it's, it's just in the back of everybody's mind that you have to be wider.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] And even though you have lighter skin, do you still have black ancestry?

Gabriel Misla [00:24:51] Yes, I did. My DNA and most of my DNA, it's black.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:24:56] Irish in there, but yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] And. And if you or your family had converted to the church prior to 78.

Gabriel Misla [00:25:05] Yes, I would have gotten the priesthood.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] What's that?

Gabriel Misla [00:25:07] I would have gotten the priesthood, even.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Yeah. And it just shows how intellectually bankrupt that whole priesthood band was. Right?

Gabriel Misla [00:25:16] Yes. Puerto Rico just. It's a, it's a wit. It's a. It's an example of how the church did not understand race and did not understand what the heck they were doing.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:25:29] To open the church without understanding that they were basically giving the priesthood to a lot of people with black blood

John Dehlin [00:25:35] on them to show they didn't know what they were doing.

Gabriel Misla [00:25:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] They didn't talk about flags in chapels.

Gabriel Misla [00:25:40] Yes, there are polls for flags, but there are no flags. No. Not from Puerto Rico, not from the United States. And it all has to do with the political issue of the island because some of the members want independence from the United States. So if you ask them, it should only be the Puerto Rican flag. And some members are okay with the current status they would want both flags in there, and some want statehood, so they would prefer just the American flag at church. So I think the church decided to just not do any more flags.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] So the churches have flagpoles but no flags in Puerto Rico. That's awesome.

Gabriel Misla [00:26:15] Something very unique compared to other countries. What else was on that list?

John Dehlin [00:26:23] What are Tainos?

Gabriel Misla [00:26:25] The Indians, though.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] Okay, right. Okay, got it. Okay.

Gabriel Misla [00:26:29] And what happens is like, just like, you know, it shows on my DNA. You know, I also have DNA from Singapore, but it's so small, you know? Right. Everybody in Puerto Rico does have been found to have some small amount of DNA from the indigenous people. About 400 years without them. So really nobody is a, like a straight descendant of a native person. Everybody is basically either mulatto, black or white. That's. That's all the opposite.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] Okay, so were Puerto Ricanos taught. Is that how you say it?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:05] Puerto Ricano, yes, but we also say boricuas.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] Say it again.

Gabriel Misla [00:27:10] Boricuas.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] Boricuas. Were you guys taught that you were Lamanites and did. Would Puerto Rico would. Boricuas. What is it?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:19] Boricuas.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Boricuas. Would they think of themselves as Lamanites?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:26] It depends, I guess. But most people wouldn't because again, most people think they're white. But, you know, the. But the missionaries would think that I would say something like that.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] So the white. The white missionaries from Utah would come over and call you all. What would you guys say? How would you react?

Gabriel Misla [00:27:46] You know, some people wouldn't like it. Some people would just accept, you know, maybe it is true, but it's. It wouldn't even. It's not even real because the amount of like DNA that everybody has of probably the Native Americans is so small. It's would be ridiculous to say that. That people are even descendants of Lamanites over there. And it sounds offensive because it just means you're dark.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] Right. And your ancestors were evil. Right? Yes.

Gabriel Misla [00:28:16] And they were evil too, which is a horrible thing to say to people. And it was a horrible thing on my mission to call these people in a nation that is not even. That barely has any also blood from the natives. That is mostly a black nation. And they're still being called Lamanites. That's how ridiculous it is that it does. Layman has become a title. Not for if you're belong to a specific race. It's just if you're dark, you're just a Lamanite for the church.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] Right. Okay. So growing up, you didn't self identify

Gabriel Misla [00:28:53] as A layman I know from Ephraim, remember? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] Interesting, interesting.

Gabriel Misla [00:29:01] I mean, I would recognize maybe, yeah, my ancestry were Lamanites, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't say I'm a layman.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] And I'm just. I'm just like.

Gabriel Misla [00:29:09] I turn wide, you know, I joined

John Dehlin [00:29:11] you blossomed like a rose.

Gabriel Misla [00:29:13] Yeah. I became white.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] White and delightsome.

Gabriel Misla [00:29:16] Yes, White and delightsome. Which, let me say something about that. That is a horrible thing that it's in the Book of Mormon. And I remember my institute class one time saying that the Virgin Mary, because the Book of Mormon says that she was fair and she was white. And basically, it's just so ridiculous for such a. Such a place like. Like Jerusalem and to have a white Virgin Mary giving birth to Jesus. Like, the whole idea is just so. So racist, you know, from the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Got it. You mentioned missionaries getting into political conversations with members. What's that about?

Gabriel Misla [00:30:01] Yeah, that happened a lot because missionaries will get offended with members that believe that Puerto Rico should be its own country, because why would you be your own country and separate yourself from the promised land? You know? You know, God's country? Why would you do such a thing? So, yeah, they will get into these conversations with the members and argue, because in their mind, the. For them, you know, Puerto Rico should just become a state, you know, instead of becoming an independent country. But they wouldn't listen to the members saying, like, you know, we want to be independent because of the massacres and the way we have been treated by the United States and that we're not a territory. We're. We're a colony. You know, the United States lies to the United nations about being a territory so that the United States doesn't apply sanctions in the United States for having a colony. But Puerto Rico, in fact, is a colony. The Supreme Court, I think, decided that last year. So there's a case about that, but that's more complex. But my point is that the missionaries will just get upset that the members,

John Dehlin [00:31:19] the white Utah missionaries. Right, yes.

Gabriel Misla [00:31:22] Yes. They would not appreciate the United States, like how it should be appreciated as the land of God.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] So it's a lot of American exceptionalism.

Gabriel Misla [00:31:33] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] Yeah.

Gabriel Misla [00:31:35] How ridiculous are these Puerto Ricans think that they don't want to join this beautiful, amazing nation that has massacred them.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] Right. Oh, wow. And you say that. You say that. That most Puerto Rican missionaries weren't. Weren't serving in Puerto Rico, that the Puerto Rican missionary force was 90 to 95% white missionaries from the states. Why is that?

Gabriel Misla [00:31:58] Yes, back then that was it. I never learned why. Apparently now it's like a 50% white missionaries, 50% non white missionaries from other Latin countries. But back then it was like 90, 95% force of white missionaries. I have no idea why.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] I mean, there's a chance that you couldn't produce enough missionaries to serve, meet your own needs or there's. Unless you were exporting missionaries like to the Dominican Republic. It's also possible that the people, they just found out that the Puerto Rican people were more receptive to Americans than they were their own people.

Gabriel Misla [00:32:42] And the thing is, they probably thought that way as well, but sometimes it would work, sometimes it wouldn't. I mean, the church really hasn't grown. And when I left there were, there were conversations about having more dark missionaries, basically. So that. Because in the Puerto Rican mind, this church is not. Has no Puerto Ricans on it because all they see is these white kids on bikes. So to them there's no Puerto Ricans going to this church. There's only white people going to this church. So I think they started to like move into the more missionaries from Puerto Rico or other nations said that the people would say, well, there's a dark missionary there. I mean, they must accept other people. But that hasn't worked either church is still not growing over there.

John Dehlin [00:33:33] Got it. Okay. And then maybe the last thing that you have mentioned, talk about coffee and the role coffee plays in Mormonism. There.

Gabriel Misla [00:33:42] Coffee is part of the Puerto Rican culture. It's super important. You go to somebody's house, they'll offer you coffee. You go to a funeral, there's coffee. Coffee is everywhere. It's so important that the Vatican used to order coffee from Puerto Rico. And that was like something that people would always talk about, like, wow, our coffee is so important, so good that even the Pope drinks our coffee. So it's ingrained into the culture to the point that it was so hard for missionaries to teach members and get them out of the habit of, of drinking coffee. It's hard. People drink coffee and they love it. And it's, it's basically ripping out some part of your culture, saying like, you know, your culture is no good, your coffee culture is no good. You need to have the culture of God, which is this Utah American culture, and forget about all of that. This, this is what you need. This is what God believes in.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] Got it. Okay. So not a.

Gabriel Misla [00:34:50] I was just saying. And the last point is that people over there are pretty liberal compared to the people in Utah with the libertarian views and things like that. So there was a lot discussions and beliefs about socialism and communism between members and missionaries. I mean, missionaries sometimes would just be very rude to members over there sometimes. And I had this sister who told me once that a missionary spit on her face. So

John Dehlin [00:35:28] not always pretty. Let's check in with some of our listeners. Osla Justo writes same thing with Mate in Argentina. Yeah, Mate in Argentina. I guess maybe Mate has caffeine and so Argentinians are asked to give that up and they probably have a hard time giving that up. Hey, Gabriel, do you know a Helaman Diaz?

Gabriel Misla [00:35:52] Yes, I do.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] He says hello. He's just giving you a shout out.

Gabriel Misla [00:35:56] Nice.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Denton writes the Book of Mormon, is anti Mormon to today's Mormon church. That's Denton's point of view. Justo is asking me to interview Sammy Galvez, part of my Lehmannite series. Somebody else is telling me we need to interview more Mexicans and Central American people because Brazilians and Puerto Ricanos aren't full flesh Hispanics. That's what Mario writes. And that sounds simultaneously, maybe a little bit offensive, but also. What's that?

Gabriel Misla [00:36:32] Incorrect as well.

John Dehlin [00:36:34] Are you not Hispanic?

Gabriel Misla [00:36:35] Well, I mean, he's incorrect because Hispanic is just an ethnicity. It's just people that speak Spanish.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] That's right. Yeah. Well, we're grateful nonetheless. Susan says she's of the tribe of Judah. That's interesting. Thanks for sharing that, Susan. We'll have to have you on Mormon stories. Kevin writes, my sister and I are the darkest ones in the family and we are Manasseh, while the rest of my family were Ephraim. It was only about a year ago I connected the racism issue there. Wow. Kevin. And I didn't. Because of your name, Kevin, I assumed, I didn't even think of you as Hispanic or dark, but that's super interesting. So can you imagine part of your family being from one lineage and then part from another? That doesn't make any sense.

Gabriel Misla [00:37:23] That would happen in Puerto Rico. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] Huh.

Gabriel Misla [00:37:26] Because it's, it's, you know, your mom or your dad would get a, you know, one patriarch and then you later, years later you would have somebody else. So, you know, that person would just think different. You know, I'm saying like they don't know what the parents lineage is. So they don't go by that. They just go by your skin color. That's how they do it. Because you're Manassa, you're a laymanite because you're dark. But not for me from.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] Got it. All right, well, thanks to our listeners for their questions and comments. If you guys have any more. Listen, we're wrapping up this interview. Got a few minutes left. Melissa writes she has a brother from the tribe of Dan, whatever that means. There's a Danite out there running around, I guess. All right, so there's at least three stories I want you to kind of wrap up, Gabriel, if you can. One is your sort of perspectives on the teachings about Lamanites and skin color and how that affects people. There's your story about being gay and how that's worked out for you and how you're doing in that regard. And then there's just your own progression and health and, well, being spiritual or secular, now that you're outside the church, do you mind talking about all three as we kind of bring your story to a close?

Gabriel Misla [00:38:53] Yeah, no problem.

John Dehlin [00:38:54] We've got about, you know, like, 15 minutes, so you don't have to rush.

Gabriel Misla [00:38:57] No problem. In terms of the Lamanite thing, it's.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] What would you like to say to the church and to Lamanites and to white Mormons about the church's teachings around dark skin and Lamanites and the Book of Mormon and the curse and all that?

Gabriel Misla [00:39:14] It needs to stop. It needs to stop. And they. The Book of Mormon. They've changed the Book of Mormon so many times. It's not the same Book of Mormon. Might as well just change those things, just remove them. It's just. It's just ridiculous at this point. It's not accurate. It's not. It doesn't fit the DNA. It's just as racist as the black priesthood band. So it's just. It's just something that they need to stop. They need to stop calling Native Americans Lamanites. They need to stop calling Latinos Lamanites Islanders, Pacific Islanders, the same thing. It's just so awful. Like. Like they need to grow up. This is ridiculous. Like, you can't just be telling people that they're Lamanized when the Book of Mormon. It's not even historically accurate. It's not a story of the Lamanites. It's not a story of the Native Americans at all. This just needs to stop. It's one of the most awful things this church still does today in terms of being gay. It helped me a lot to leave the church. I was 29 when I had my first relationship, which, in a way, it has been a sad thing for me. I still go to therapy because of the damage the church costs in my life. And I was. My brain was just not okay. And to Go to therapy and to being able for years now to move on and to feel so much better now and accept myself and. And realize this is just another ridiculous thing that the church still does. It has helped me a lot. It's sad for me in a way, because I wish I would have known these things back then. I wish I would have been open like people are now at their age when they're 16 and 18. Because I would have loved to have that 16 love and that young love that everybody craves. So now I have to be 34 and still looking for someone. So someone's out there, you know, Just. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] Absolutely. Gabriel, give him a call.

Gabriel Misla [00:41:40] Right, but that's, you know, it has.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] It stunts your growth, Right? It robs you of important development that you should have had as a 13 year old. Right.

Gabriel Misla [00:41:51] I feel I lost so much of my life that I gave to this church for nothing in return. And I mean, that still haunts me today. It slowed my growth. Yes. I got depressed to the point at one point, I lost my job at Wells Fargo. I was suicidal. It was just an awful thing. I felt shame all the time. I remember the first time I had any sexual contact with someone that I went back home, got into the shower, and I started crying because it was just. That's how much they shame you. That's how awful this is. People just don't realize how much the church, by what they say, really messes with people's minds and how much that causes suicidal. So if anything, your show as well, has helped me a lot by listening to all the podcasts from the past and learning about other people that went through the same thing. And it just, it has been wonderful, actually to listen to Mormon Stories podcast because it has helped me heal as well.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you, Gabriel.

Gabriel Misla [00:43:13] No, thank you, John. I really appreciate what you've done.

Leaving the Church and Processing the Transition

John Dehlin [00:43:16] Let me ask you, though, and I don't mean to invalidate your experience, but I just want to check in with you because you're here in the States, you're speaking great English, you're getting a degree at the U of, um. You know, I could hear some of my listeners say, wait a minute, would you be doing so well if. If you hadn't have, you know, converted to the church at 16? You seem to be doing pretty well. Now, that question clearly can come out of a place of ignorance about what it's like to be Puerto Rican and the relationship between Puerto rico and the U.S. but minimally, aren't there good things that you got from the church. And to what extent do you feel like actually compared to other Puerto Ricanos that you grew up with, you're actually in a much better position now? I could be totally wrong. So push back on me if you disagree. But I'm just curious to what extent there's another side to your experience that you also are grateful for or not.

Gabriel Misla [00:44:25] Yes. So easy answer to this question. I think it's. And something that I talked to my therapist about and Tell me I'm wrong.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] Please tell me I'm totally wrong if you think I'm wrong.

Gabriel Misla [00:44:36] Yeah, no, it's when I see my friends from when I started the university in Puerto Rico, you know, when I was 18 and they're now lawyers and teachers and are doing very well and have relationships and have moved on as. Even as gay man, back then I didn't know they were gay. Now they are and to go to their weddings. And compared to me, who I'm still struggling just to get a degree and it's been so, so hard and, and I barely. Just three, almost three years ago, got a really decent job with a good pay. It has affected me. I have not. There's. I always say that to my friend. Like, I just feel out of place you guys are at this level. You're. You're my same age and I'm not there with you. And it's all because of my situation, what happened in the church, all that depression, all those years where I couldn't concentrate in order to take better jobs and how hard it was to study, to concentrate in class. So to me it was the opposite. It was not a good experience. If anything, the only good experience from the church was as a member in Puerto Rico and it was not the church.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] And as a missionary. In the doctor.

Gabriel Misla [00:45:58] Right, in the doctor. And I just keep going back to that and I realize there's. There's the variant is the church what's common in all those situations? It's the people. And I think that's what this has brought me into being a humanist. You know, I'm. I just believe now in people and the power of people and the power of how we are as people instead of religion or God or anything like that as an example. So, yeah, no, I believe the church actually slow me down a lot compared to my friends of my same age who are gay as well.

John Dehlin [00:46:39] Right, right. Okay. And I thank you. Thanks for your patience in me asking the uninformed question. I think it's really important that you were able to shed light on that fact.

Gabriel Misla [00:46:52] No, no, I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Because of our ignorance and racism about Puerto Rico, we sometimes as Americans, we're like, everybody's Mexican and, and boy, you're doing a lot better than a lot of the Mexicans. I know. And so it comes out of a place of ignorance and you should just all admit that.

Gabriel Misla [00:47:10] I grew up poor. I'm not poor. I mean, I have a job and it's a pretty good job, but my parents are poor and I. It's not. And I can really help the poverty that we like. I can just change things, their situation and so, no, I mean, it's not. It's not as, as good as people might think. It's not. It has not been good.

John Dehlin [00:47:37] Well, all that matters is how you feel and you feel like it hasn't been good for you.

Gabriel Misla [00:47:41] Yeah, it has been really hard. But I mean, I'm here and I'm. I made tons of progress and I feel so much better now that I been able to accept myself.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] So has your depression and suicidality declined since leaving the church and accepting yourself?

Gabriel Misla [00:47:57] Yes, yes, yes. So much better. It was lifting a weight that I had since I was a kid growing up in Puerto Rico.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] Okay, so how. So what are your as. We're kind of closing out your story, you know, where are you now? I noticed your post on Ex Mormon Reddit. So I know you're kind of actively involved there. Just talk about what it's like being a post Mormon today and why you wanted to do this interview and what your hopes are for the church, for Mormons, for post Mormons, you know, what sort of parting thoughts or messages do you want to share?

Gabriel Misla [00:48:43] That church is not true. But I was wrong. I was just so ignorant of the history of the church. If anything, I wanted to do this so that people in Puerto Rico, members in Puerto Rico who are not even in your Mormon story podcast. But now I have the opportunity to share this video with them and for them to share with others that they learn about my experience, that some people that knew me and that I had no contact with them now that they them knowing how much I read books from the church and how much I knew about the church, that if they have any idea of who I am or remember who I was, that they now see that there's something wrong with the church to trust me just like they did back then, that I'm not lying. The history speaks for itself. This. This church is not true and it lies to people and it promotes this racism against people like me and like people in Puerto Rico and other countries. And it just. That's my hope. That's my hope that others, other people in Puerto Rico learn about it. And if the church is already small over there, maybe it becomes smaller as more people leave once they, once they listen to the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:50:03] Now I'm going to invoke a really offensive ex Mormon trope. There's sort of the they can leave the church and not leave it alone thing. What if somebody were to say to you, look, Gabriel, it didn't work out for you, but it brings millions of people joy and happiness. And even if you don't think it's true, other people do and you don't know for sure. Why not just walk away and go find your joy? Why do you have to be, quote, bearing your testimony that it's not true and trying to harm people's faith? Why not just walk away ones?

Gabriel Misla [00:50:43] Because there are other people like me out there who are struggling because they're gay and who don't need to struggle. So I hope this helps them. Then second, because I still have people in the church. My brother still goes in the church. I hope he finally sees this interview and he starts seeing things different. So I always hear you ask that question is a great question because I always wanted to answer, like, the reason why people can't leave the church alone is because we have people in church, because we know people in church and we love those people and we know that they don't know better. Why wouldn't we want people that we love to know the things that we know? Like, it's the same thing when we started believing the church and once we found out about the church, we wanted to share with everybody. So now once we find out the truth, we want to share that truth with everybody. It's the Mormon thing to do, too. That's the one Mormon thing that I keep as part of the culture. I want to share the truth. So that it. When people say that, it's just a ridiculous question. I don't think they understand the stories of people, and I don't think they're listening to people like us that have left the church. They just assume that we just. That the church is true just because we don't want to leave it alone. That's like saying like, oh, just because I don't leave the Catholic Church alone as well, then that the Catholic Church is true. Like, it's just not true.

Impact on Relationships and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [00:52:21] And have your relationships with family or friends suffered as a result of leaving the church? Has it improved? Are your parents happier?

Gabriel Misla [00:52:30] Yes, it has improved, actually, with my old friends and with my friends from the church. Most of them actually left the church

John Dehlin [00:52:41] from Puerto Rico or from here in

Gabriel Misla [00:52:43] Utah because they were that close to me and they saw how I suffered. Some of them I share this he as letter with. So, yes, most of my friends have left the church as well as I have left. So.

John Dehlin [00:52:58] Okay. All right. Well, normally on Mormon stories, the way that we end is by having people kind of share something they believe or what they believe now. And let me just see. So what I want to do is have you think a little bit about what you want to say and I'll just read a comment or two. Susan writes speaking truth is anti Mormon. That's a comment from Susan. And yeah, so not a lot of new comments from people who have been joining us live, but we've definitely enjoyed having some live listeners. We've had about 30 joining us. So we want to thank them for joining us, everyone who's tuned in. But let's not end before we have you do what's very normal for Mormon stories, which is Gabriel Misla, to have you share some final thoughts or your final testimony, whatever that is, secular or whatever. What would you want to share with our audience in closing?

Gabriel Misla [00:54:10] I learned that truth, it's independent of what we perceive or our perspectives. I learned that the church teaches people to just pray and to see if things are true or not. But we should never depend on things like that. We should always depend on evidence and not. And not just follow things just because our heart says we can always make mistakes. And I learned that and the same with the Bible. By reading more about the Bible and the history of the Bible, it's easy for me to say, easier for me to say that, you know, it was written by a bunch of Jews, a tribe of Jews, and they weren't perfect. So it's not a story that comes from God. It's just stories from. From humans. So anything I've learned, it's our humanity. And that has made me a humanist, that the Bible is not a book from God. It's a book from imperfect people, from beautiful people who wrote the best they knew about their own reality. And that's what Joseph Smith did. If anything I believe about Joseph Smith, anything like that, is that they just, they didn't know any better. And that's what they knew, and that was their world. And so they wrote something that was based on the reality. And that's what makes, if anything, makes the Book of Mormon and everything else about the church so human. And that's what. That's what makes the church great. It's the humanity of the people in the church, the humanity of us. And that. And we have made the church great. I made the church great when I was there. My friends did. Everybody did. It was us. Not what we were being taught, but our humanity. And so, yeah, that's why I'm a humanist now, which for a lot of people, it's basically lingo to say, I believe in people. I don't believe in God or higher powers, anything like that. I just believe in us, in our power to do good.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] I love it. Well, I'm really grateful for your willingness to share your story, Gabriel. It's a great compliment to our series on Losing the Lamanites. I'm really grateful for Oleicia, who gets the prize for the best comment of the day. She ends by saying, I'm so glad you are still alive. Just live. You are a beautiful person. Thank you for your story, Gabriel. So that's from Alicia, who made that comment at the end of the episode. What do you want to say back to Alicia?

Gabriel Misla [00:56:58] Thank you. Thank you. That means so much. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Closing Thanks and Sign-Off

John Dehlin [00:57:02] All right, so, Gabriel, thanks again for joining us today on Mormon Stories. It's been a pleasure. I want to thank all our listeners. I want to thank Cody Layton and Amy Grubbs, who work for the Open Stories foundation that make all this possible. Scheduling, producing, editing, advertising, all that stuff, all the events and fundraising we couldn't do without Amy and Cody. I want to thank all those who donate to the Open Stories foundation. Your podcasts, 100% of your donations go towards the mission of the OSF, which is to support people who are impacted by or experiencing religious transition. And all your donations are tax deductible. We're fully transparent with our finances and we're grateful for those who keep us going. For those of you who love what we're doing but do not support us, please know this can go away anytime if people stop supporting us, that your donations, even 10 or 20 or $30 a month, can keep us alive. So please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button if you haven't, and sign up for a monthly donation or whatever amount you can afford. And we'll promise you that we'll use your money to prevent suicides, to help alleviate suffering, to help alleviate depression and anxiety, to build community, and to promote healing and growth for people in or out of Mormonism. So please support us if you can. Check out mormonstories.org events if you want to attend one of our upcoming events. We're really grateful for all the support. We're doing great things and it's because of you. So with all of that, I just want again, thank everyone for tuning in. And Gabriel Misla, I want to wish you the best. Please stay in touch and please reach out if we can ever help in any way.

Gabriel Misla [00:59:00] Thank you. Appreciate it. Have a good.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] All right. Take care, Gabriel. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.