Welcome and Introduction to Randy Bell

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1533

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is January 17, 2022. I hope that I don't flub that up. And we are super excited for today's episode. Today we have in the house not only a longtime listener as in several years of Mormon Stories podcast, but also someone who I consider to be a dear friend and, and that friend is Dr. Randy Bell. Hey, Randy Bell.

Randy Bell [00:00:33] Dr. John Dehlin. Nice to see you.

John Dehlin [00:00:35] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:00:36] And Carah, you too.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] And Carah's in the house. Thanks for joining us, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:00:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] How you been?

Carah Burrell [00:00:43] So good.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:00:44] It's been a really fun weekend.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Yeah. Well, we've got something really, I think, enjoyable for you guys. So always I try and just interview people on Mormon stories. We do the long form interviews where we try and interview people that have compelling Mormon stories. And I think Randy's story definitely fits that. Randy's a Southern California boy, or at least that's in his adult life. That's where he's from. We'll hear, we'll hear more about that.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] But Randy will have his own Mormon story. He has had a really interesting career that has taken him to a lot of places that people will be familiar with and they'll be probably impressed or curious about some of his professional experiences. And we'll get into that as well. I think the main hook for today's interview has to do with Randy's conversion from Mormonism to what, what I think Randy would describe as Christianity. And I'm going to just say at the outset, Mormons take offense at the idea that they're by not considered by many to be Christian. That's not the intent of today's title. I, you know, I grew up in Katy, Texas with, with Southern Baptists all around me accusing, you know, Mormons of not being a Christian.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] But what we mean by the title from Mormon to Christian is just that instead of going the way many post Mormons do, probably at least half of the postmortems that I know end up as self identifying as either agnostic or atheist. And there's nothing wrong with that. We do have a very high percentage our listeners who in some ways identify as Christian and or we have many listeners that are just trying to figure out where they want to land because it's so disorienting to go through a faith crisis in a high demand religion. And we always like to model or provide role models or examples of people all across the spectrum.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] So that literally, if secularism is where you want to end up. We've got plenty of role models for that. But. But if Christianity is somewhere where you're inclined to still hold on to Christianity, to still have Christ be an important part of your life, either literally or symbolically or whatever, metaphorically, we like to have guests on as that as well. And Randy, you identify as Christian today, and you. I think that Christianity is an important part of your identity. Tell me if I've got that wrong.

Randy Bell [00:03:16] Well, I think that it is. And I want to echo your comment that I don't want anybody to feel offended at anything. If anybody lands on Mormonism or Islam or Buddhism or atheism, they have my respect. But yes, I am happily a Christian. That's a loaded word, though. And you think Christian. Oh, you have some political views or some position on lgbt. I think as we go along, we'll see that there's a lot of ways to be a Christian. And I found one that works for me.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] Yeah. And that will probably. I mean, I'm guessing that throughout your Mormon story, you're going to be sprinkling in some insights as it relates to Christianity, maybe your early Christian impulses, and then ultimately your conversion into a different form of Christianity, leaving Mormonism. So we'll sprinkle that in as we go.

Randy Bell [00:04:10] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] And just a full disclosure. I have never identified as neither atheist or agnostic. I'm supportive of wherever people end up, and I have a lot of respect for the teachings of Jesus. So that's where I stand. Carah, do you want to, up front kind of give your biases, or do you want to avoid that or where do you stand?

Carah Burrell [00:04:29] You're the boss. You tell me. I'm really interested because I was just reading over Randy's outline and sounds like I respect anyone who puts a lot of thought into the conclusions that they come to. You know, as a Mormon, a lot of the ideas we have handed to us from birth. So anyone who goes through like any kind of deconstruction and reconstruction of their belief always has my respect. So I was somebody who was kind of living as a Christian with one foot in a Christian camp, listening to a lot of sermons from like 2011, 2012 all the way till 2019, when I lost my literal faith in Mormonism and thought that I was like, oh, yeah, I could be a Christian now, But I just deconstructed those beliefs and didn't feel like there was any validity to hold up the beliefs.

Carah Burrell [00:05:11] But that's just me. I'm one person and I've never walked in somebody else's shoes. So I don't know what's right for them and what makes sense in their brain. But I identify as an agnostic atheist now and I'm happy with that.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Yeah. And so I think and, and by the way, tomorrow we're going to have the amazing Alan Mount on from marriage on a tightrope who does a lot of tiktoks around atheism and secularism. And we like the idea of having a kind of a charitable, respectful dialogue between a theist, as in Randy, and an atheist, as in Alan Mount. So we're going to be looking forward to that as well. That's going to be a part two or part three, depending on how today goes. But I like the idea of kind of someone who's more neutral in this camp and in Carah, someone who kind of has put that stake in the ground as atheist or agnostic to be able to ask questions and to query from kind of multiple perspectives.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] So I'm really excited that we've got a little bit of a some diversity along the spectrum just to kind of like have questions and insight from various perspectives.

Randy Bell [00:06:15] Yeah, I love diversity. I think you get the best decisions made where you have all parties at the table having playing nice and bringing different perspectives to the table. And with a lot of the work I have, I have a very devout atheist who, who is part of my team on certain things and they keep me honest and I like that dynamic.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Yeah. Really quickly, Randy, so that people get a sense for your career. Can you just give people a sense for kind of just a couple of the books you've authored, a tiny bit about the work you do and maybe some of the more interesting or compelling sites you visited just to let people know how truly cool your, your profession is. As again, a hook to make them kind of want to. Want to stay tuned.

Randy Bell's Career Studying Disasters

Randy Bell [00:07:05] Well, I study disasters and so you name a disaster, there's a pretty good chance I've worked on it and I study them as an economist. I measure the economic damages that disasters cause. And I worked on the World Trade Center Flight 93 crash site. I worked on the O.J. simpson case, JonBenet Ramsey, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Harvey, Heaven's Gate. That's where I learned about Colts and worked on that case for a couple years. There's a long list. They might pop up in my head as I go along because they're kind of part of my story.

Randy Bell [00:07:45] I think one case I worked on was very, very sad was Sandy Hook. So I've been to some sites of some pretty serious tragedies and the Pulse nightclub really resonated with me. I walked in door as a true believing Mormon into the Pulse nightclub, saw what I saw. And I can't talk about it very long because I get choked up, but I walked out the door very LGBT affirming, which may upset some of my Christian friends, but I really don't care. That's just where I am. So each case brought some flavor to my story, I think.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] Yeah. And so that's, you know, Randy's just fascinating to have dinner with. And I've had several brunches and dinners with Randy. And you, you, your work even took you to the properties of Jeffrey Epstein after he had.

Randy Bell [00:08:34] They did. And, and on that case, I can just say I worked on it. I can't, I can't really discuss it much, but yes, I, I did. I, I've been, I've been there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] Okay. So again, hopefully you guys got a flavor for the fascinating, insightful, intelligent human that we've got in front of us. So. But as we always begin, we begin with the Mormon story.

Growing Up Mormon in Southern California

Randy Bell [00:08:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] So, Randy, where does your Mormon story begin?

Randy Bell [00:08:58] Well, I'm in Laguna beach now, and I started my Mormon story, where I started my life in Orange County, California. I was born a tall, white, straight Mormon guy. I grew up in Fullerton, California. And what made my childhood kind of interesting was our home. My mom's 99, she's still with us, and our childhood home is still there. And she's still there. Overlooks Disneyland. And it was a wonderful Southern California childhood. A lot of days at the beach, a lot of fun. I have a weird memory in a lot of ways, but I have a memory that goes right back to nursery at church. And so I remember growing up Mormon

John Dehlin [00:09:47] born in the Covenant.

Randy Bell [00:09:48] Yeah. Oh, yeah. My dad, the Bell family goes right back to Nauvoo. My great grandfather is Joseph F. Smith's companion in Hawaii. My grandfather went on a mission to Tahiti. My dad went back to Hawaii. And then we'll get to my mission later on. But sticking with my childhood, my parents very devout. My mom was Relief Society president or Stake Relief Society president, pretty much my whole childhood. My dad was a temple worker and he's also our Boy Scout leader. My mom's the only member of her family. And I was pretty excited about the fact that my uncle was the director of Gilligan's Island. So that was a lot of fun. I tried to talk him into.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] That's a funny sitcom that I'm old enough to have watched. Fair enough. And really loved it. My first. Let's just say, romantic awakenings were with Ginger. Ginger, not Marianne. I thought Marianne was super cute.

Randy Bell [00:10:54] John, I thought I liked you. I thought you were a Marianne kind of guy.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] As a boy, I can't choose my awakenings. But I had an awakening with Ginger.

Randy Bell [00:11:03] Well, I talked to my uncle. I swear to you, I was in kindergarten or first grade. And I said, uncle Jerry, you got to set me up with Marianne. And I meant it. She was beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] Marianne was beautiful.

Randy Bell [00:11:14] Yeah. And he says, you know, he was a very funny guy. And he goes, you know, I can set you up with Ginger, but I just don't think it will work out with Marianne. And I slammed my hand on the picnic table. I said, look, Uncle Jerry, I want Marianne. But anyway, it was a fun childhood. I remember Primary because we had our chapel, had a big, you know, adult chapel, and also had a junior chapel. I don't know if they do that everywhere else, but. But that's how it was with us. And I remember these stories about Jesus when I was just really little, and I just thought he was so cool.

Randy Bell [00:11:47] And I was growing up in the 60s, so we had the Beatles and Jimi Hendrix and, you know, the whole hippie thing and Woodstock, and they were talking about the Beatitudes and the Parables, and I just thought. And they kept. And I never heard about Joseph Smith till I was about 7, but it was all about Jesus. And I remember a big part of my Mormon story is my.

Randy Bell [00:12:10] I was sitting there in Primary, maybe five, I don't know. And they were talking more and more about Jesus, and that's all they talked about. And I leaned over to my little buddy next to me, and I said, where do you meet Jesus? I mean, where do I. I got to meet this guy.

Randy Bell [00:12:26] And my buddy goes. He looked at me like he's an idiot. And he goes, no, I think he died and went to heaven. And I go, oh, bummer. Because I really was anxious to meet him. And so that was a very early childhood memory. But it was just a fun childhood and idyllic in every way. And I think that.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] Did you dig the Primary songs?

Randy Bell [00:12:48] I loved them. Jesus Loves Me for a Sunbeam. Yeah, we had a crepe paper sun rays that went off from the sun and I got to hold the sun ray once A sun beam, a sunbeam that's about all I got.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Is this before your time? Do you even know that song at all?

Carah Burrell [00:13:05] Do you think I'm 5 years old or something? Of course I sang that song. I Was kicked out in the hall for singing that song too rambunctiously. My entire.

Randy Bell [00:13:13] You can't say that.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Were you the ones that would pop up in your chair?

Carah Burrell [00:13:18] Yeah. Primary leaders like Carah, calm the freak down. Get out in the hall.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] All right, so you like that song,

Randy Bell [00:13:24] So a lot of fun, but, you

John Dehlin [00:13:25] know, do you remember when church, you used to have to. Wasn't it like, on Sundays you'd go, oh, my. Twice.

Randy Bell [00:13:31] Yeah, you'd go three times.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] How. How was it?

Randy Bell [00:13:33] You got up early, went to priesthood meeting, came home and had Cheerios or oatmeal, went back down for Sunday school, came home and had lunch, went down for sacrament meeting, came home and had dinner. No kidding.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] That is tedious. I'm old enough to remember that.

Randy Bell [00:13:48] I am, too. Yeah, yeah, it was a big deal. But most of my friends were not Mormon. I mean, I grew up in Southern California, so one of my best friends was Presbyterian, another one was Catholic. And we didn't care. I mean, it was just we, you know, and everybody went to church of one type or another.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Remind me if you had siblings.

Randy Bell [00:14:11] Seven siblings. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the second.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] Massive family.

Randy Bell [00:14:15] It's a big family.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] Kids.

Randy Bell [00:14:17] Seven. Sorry. Seven altogether.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Okay. You're so six.

Randy Bell [00:14:21] Six siblings. Excuse me.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] And where were your birth order?

Randy Bell [00:14:23] I was second to the last. I'm second. I have a little brother. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] Wow. All by. All biological.

Randy Bell [00:14:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They were busy.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] That's. I mean, that's old school Mormon, like seven kids. That's how it was back in the day.

Randy Bell [00:14:36] That's how it was. And we were in it to win it, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] And your. Your dad's profession was.

Randy Bell [00:14:42] My dad was a mechanical engineer. He passed away at age 92. And he worked for Fender Guitar and Leo Fender lived two streets away from us. Yeah, yeah. So Fender and music, it was a big, big part of growing up. Our literally, our kitchen table was made of Stratocaster cutaway wood that my dad brought back from the plant and made our kitchen table. And Leo was in the neighborhood, very quiet man. And music. It was really funny because we'd play a game at dinner time where we'd quiz dad, my dad, what. What rock stars he had met. And my dad didn't care. He just literally never. No autographs, no pictures, no nothing. And I can't tell you how many times we coached it out of him that he had met with, you know, a list, you know, iconic rock stars, because when they played it.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Give us examples, drop names.

Randy Bell [00:15:39] I don't I.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] No.

Randy Bell [00:15:40] Well, I'll, you know, like one day. You remember Emerson, Lincoln, Palmer?

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Sure.

Randy Bell [00:15:46] Well, he goes, I was with this guy today, his name was Carl. And I go, and they were playing at the Anaheim Stadium. And I said, as in Emerson, Lake and Palmer Call Palmer. And he goes, yeah, I spent the day with him. Why did dad, why don't you call me? And I said, dad, what did the rock stars, you know, I would always quiz him, but he didn't say much. He didn't know who they were, nor did Leo care or any of those guys. Freddy Trevoris, all those iconic Fender guys didn't care.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] Wait, Leo, Fender didn't care about rock stars?

Randy Bell [00:16:18] Well, there's a story where this Prince came in because he had a custom made purple guitar.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] Prince?

Randy Bell [00:16:24] The Prince.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:16:25] Oh, anybody of anybody went through that plant when they played at the Anaheim Stadium or Convention Center. And the guys went in to get Leo to say, hey, Prince is out here, he's got to meet you. He's not going to fly home till you know he's picked up his purple guitar. And Leo just said, I'm busy right now because he was just a designer, he was a mechanical engineer and.

Randy Bell [00:16:49] And the guys kept going back and hammering on Leo. You gotta get out here to meet Prince. And finally Leo was frustrated, went out there and Prince said, I just wanna say hello and can you make me a promise? You never paint another shade of this purple on another guitar. And Leo goes, yeah, sure, I promise. And he went back in and went back to work. And that's how Leo was. But the Rolling Stones came through. I think Zeppelin did. I'm a big Led Zeppelin fan. The beat every.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] I won't hold. I won't hold that against you. I'm a Beatles fan. So.

Randy Bell [00:17:20] Well, the Beatles came to, you know,

John Dehlin [00:17:22] kind of have to choose. You can't be Beatles and Zeppelin fan. My listeners are going to blow up. Oh, I'm sure that's not really. I'm just being silly. I was a Mormon kid. I felt like Led Zeppelin didn't have the spirit. I felt like they had a dark. I feel like Led Zeppelin had a dark. It's probably because I was taught the Stairway to Heaven had back masking and

Randy Bell [00:17:40] mentioned doctrine right there. Led Zeppelin is iconic and you felt

John Dehlin [00:17:45] the Holy Ghost as a Mormon teen

Randy Bell [00:17:47] listening to Led Zeppelin far more than Polish Dunn. Yeah, all right. Yeah, no, it was. There's others. They all came through. In fact, my dad was. We'd go down to the plant and I came up to the lady who was assembling the necks to the bodies of the guitar. And it dawned on me that Jimi Hendrix guitar had been on her table. And I said that. I said, you know, jimi Hendrix's guitars was right here. And she goes. And she just looked at me and said, everybody's guitar has been on my table. There was a reverence for what they were doing.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] Nice.

Randy Bell [00:18:26] So, yeah, and Boy Scouts was huge. I got the boy Scout manual, and my parents never had to coach me for a second. Neither one of my brothers earned their eagle or coach cared about it that much, I don't think. But give me a checklist, and I'm on it. And so I earned the merit badges. And we had a water skiing theme. I mean, we were either camping or water skiing every single Saturday in high school. The music scene was huge because a lot of bands came out of Fullerton and Anaheim. You know, Terry Nunn in Berlin, Social Distortion, Mike Ness lived right down the street. You want me to drop some names?

John Dehlin [00:19:13] No, that's fine.

Randy Bell [00:19:14] Well, there was a couple more. Gwen Stefani, you know, there are a lot of people going. A lot of stuff going on. And the Mormon dances were epic. I mean, they hired the best bands, and they were live bands. None of this PJ stuff.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] Your Mormon Warden Stake dances had live bands.

Randy Bell [00:19:32] Huge every Saturday, and they were the best bands around.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] What years would that have been?

Randy Bell [00:19:38] Well, I graduated from high school in 77, so this is all kind of mid-70s.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Really? Did they have dance cards back then?

Randy Bell [00:19:44] No, no, none of that stuff. No, no. And not only that, John, but the. All the kids from high school came. All the girls from different high schools came. And so it rotated. You know, Fullerton or Yorba Linda, you know, Tustin, Orange, Anaheim, and rotated. So every Saturday, we was an epic, huge band, huge dances. And all the kids from the high school came, whether they're Mormon or not. It was big.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Non Mormons came.

Randy Bell [00:20:12] Oh, yeah. By the truckload. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Okay, before, I want to ask you questions about, like, the hippie. Hippie movement and Woodstock and all that stuff, but before, is there anything else you want to talk about? Your childhood, kind of your prepubescence kind of years that were important to your Mormon journey?

Randy Bell [00:20:31] There's one story in high school, but if.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] But I can say before high school, anything else, like. Like with your family or you before. Like, high school?

Randy Bell [00:20:42] Not really. Just. I have very fond memories of my high school. I have wonderful parents.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] Did you guys do family meeting or, like, family scripture study? Like, how Mormony was your. Was your Home. Growing up as a child, it was pretty darn Mormony.

Randy Bell [00:20:59] We went to church every Sunday without exception. And, you know, I did seminary, but. And we did have family home. I mean, not necessarily ever. I remember when family home and even became a thing when they announced you were pre family. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I think I got 10 years, so. Yeah, I remember that. And so not everybody. It kind of. Kind of ramped up. It wasn't like a, you know. You know, there was a. A period of time where there was no such thing as family home.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but. But a very Mormony. Mormon. What about like, coffee and tea and tobacco and alcohol in your home at zero? None.

Randy Bell [00:21:41] My. My mom's family, as I said, she was the only member. My aunts and uncles would come over and they bring their own sinker or bring their own coffee.

John Dehlin [00:21:49] What's senka? People don't know what senka is.

Randy Bell [00:21:51] Oh, it's like. It's like a instant coffee, I think.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] Was it. Was it decaf?

Randy Bell [00:21:56] I think it might have been. I didn't remember Postum. My dad drank postum.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] I drank postum.

Randy Bell [00:22:01] Oh, really? Yeah, I never post them.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] Was like Mormon coffee made of grains. Yeah, yeah. It was a way for you to have a hot beverage that wasn't.

Randy Bell [00:22:08] Yeah, it's wannabe coffee. Yeah, yeah. My dad drank postum. My parents were devout, but they were pretty. Let's just say I got a lot of. Got a. Got away with a lot of stuff. We did a lot of pranks, a lot of goofing off. A lot of stuff going on in the neighborhood with toilet. Toilet papering houses, that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Yeah. All right. Did you guys. Did you do scout camp? You know that?

Randy Bell [00:22:37] Oh, yes. Not only I did. I loved it. Some guys weren't into it, but I love the camping. I love the merit badges. I loved riding my bike around town to the merit badge counselors checking off my merit badges. Uh, you know, I just. And I love water skiing and I love the beach. That was basically my life.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] Did you water ski at. In the ocean or was there a lake?

Randy Bell [00:22:58] No, no, no. Lake Elsinore or Lake Paris or. We went up to, you know, Lake Powell once a year.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:23:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] Okay. All right. So sounds like.

Carah Burrell [00:23:08] And.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] And how did it feel? Was your ward tight knit, your Mormon ward? What was your ward?

Randy Bell [00:23:12] What was your name? Ward was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] What was the name of it?

Randy Bell [00:23:15] Fullerton. Third Ward.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:23:18] I think it's now called the Acacia Ward.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] What? Steak.

Randy Bell [00:23:21] Your Belinda steak.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:23:23] Or Placentia Steak Care.

John Dehlin [00:23:25] Do These city names, do they mean anything to you? I know you spent some time.

Carah Burrell [00:23:28] They're all like, oc.

Randy Bell [00:23:29] This is oc yeah. Cares. Santa Monica, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That came later.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:23:34] I made my way over there. But Orange County, OC is the ward as a. As deacons, every single Sunday, we had to open up the back doors and set up more chairs. It was packed. It was just this huge vibe. Wonderful people that I still love to this day.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Leaders that really took care of you and loved you.

Randy Bell [00:23:56] Yes. Bishop Lowe was awesome. Bishop Black, Bishop Harris. I remember all my bishops. They were just great. And they were people that were not only kind, but they were. What's the word? Successful in business. I mean, there were people to look up to at multiple levels. And it was. And back then, there was no correlation. It was like a free fast and testimony meeting was. I don't want to say freak show, but it was fun because there were all kinds of crazy ideas and we'd sit and laugh and, you know, this and that. I mean, it was really vibrant. There was none of this kind of corralling of. Of attitude or behavior. It was pretty open, very open.

Mormon Childhood, Pop Culture, and Church Teachings

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Was this during the time Donnie Marie were big and did you watch the Donny Marie show?

Randy Bell [00:24:52] Yeah, they were. They came. They came on the scene when I was in high school. My dad was really into them, I think, you know, I was more like going out on dates and going out and having fun with my buddies when they were on tv. So I didn't personally watch a lot of it, but it was a big deal. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] How did your non Mormon friends view Mormons? Like, were they like, these guys are weird or were you just totally. It wasn't even a thing.

Randy Bell [00:25:20] It wasn't really a thing. Until high school, maybe. I. This is a good point to tell this little story. I was in high school and this tall, blonde, beautiful girl, her name's Lori, she was a homecoming queen. She was the kind of person that, you know, if she said hi to you, you know, you felt great all day. And she comes running across the quad and comes up, running up to me, randy, Randy, Randy. I go, hey, hi, Laurie. And she had this, like, paper bag full of books. And Lori was a born again Christian, and I think she still is. And she says, randy, I got these books and you got to read these.

Randy Bell [00:26:05] Please read these. And I go, okay. And I never got the memo about anti Mormon literature. The attitude back then was more like whatever. You know, Mormonism was about learning truth from wherever it came from. That was kind of the theme.

Randy Bell [00:26:22] And Laurie gave me these books. I went home and I opened up the first book, first chapter, and the first sentence said, joseph Smith was a polygamist. And I said, no, he wasn't. That was Brigham Young. And my mom was in the kitchen. I said, mom, was Joseph Smith a polygamist? She goes, oh, heavens no. Where'd you get that idea? And she goes, that was Brigham Young. And he kind of went off the rails and the church got back on. And, you know, that was kind of her explanation. And so I believe my mom. But we had a big set of books on the bookshelf, and I took in a big black volume of history of the church and I pulled them out and I made sure that they were published by the church.

Randy Bell [00:27:02] I was doing my due diligence. Pull out the index, and I look up polygamy and Joseph Smith, and I go right to this phrase that said, where Joseph Smith was accused of being a polygamist. And he says, what a thing for a man to be accused of having seven wives when I can only find one. And I looked at the dates. It was right before he died. And so there I had conclusive proof, because Joseph Smith said so in a book published by the church that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. So I went, I took the book, I put them all back in the bags, I read a little bit more, and I went back to Laurie.

Randy Bell [00:27:35] I said, laurie, you know, look, you're so cool, but why does your pastor tell these lies about my church? You know, can't we just kind of get along here? You know, this isn't cool. And Laurie is a really kind hearted person. She kind of looked sad that I was kind of like, you know, railing on her a little bit or her church. And I gave the books back. And that concept stuck, you know, in my. Was firmly implanted in my psyche for decades longer.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] So you weren't taught a lot of the. I mean, we will get to what you learned after your faith crisis. Yeah, but there's. You're saying there's a lot truthful, factual things about Mormon church history that you weren't taught growing up.

Randy Bell [00:28:21] Absolutely not. And even if you explicitly asked or looked it up, you. I didn't know. And I went to seminary four years.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] So without telling the. The actual factual history, what were the things that you were taught that you've now discovered weren't true? So without telling the giving the ending away list, all the things you were taught that now, as a Mormon child growing up in California, that now you know, aren't factual or true. Can you do that? That's kind of putting you on the spot.

Randy Bell [00:28:51] Yeah, well, let me back up if I can, to primary, because that. That can kind of lead into that. I remember when I was seven, I was just about to be baptized, you know, when you, of course, you turn eight. And I remember my teacher, Sister Thatcher, sitting us all down in a classroom, and she pulls out kind of a flip chart, you know, with laminated pages, and she starts telling. And I had never heard the name Joseph Smith before in my life, and I'm seven and a half years old, and she goes. And she tells the first vision story. And I distinctly remember going, oh, my gosh, this just feels sketchy. I just. This. And I'm a little innocent kid, so there's no agenda, but I just.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] What about it seems sketchy?

Randy Bell [00:29:41] It just. I don't know how to explain it. It just seemed like it didn't sit well with me. And. And I can't explain it beyond that. It was just this profound feeling that came over me. And of course, I buried that feeling. But of course, you were told about the first vision and that there was God the Father and Jesus Christ there. That's what I was taught. And there was only one version that I ever heard. The book of Abraham was translated from papyrus. The golden plates were literal. That Joseph Smith sat on at a table. Sometimes there was a curtain, sometimes there was not. But he was sitting there looking through stones or something to translate the actual physical golden plates.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] One wife, Emma.

Randy Bell [00:30:36] One wife, Emma. That was crystal clear. Yeah, yeah, crystal clear.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] What about, like, what were you taught about, like, the circumstances around his death, Joseph's death?

Randy Bell [00:30:50] Oh, well, that he was being continuously hounded and persecuted for just simply the restoration. That that was. That's all you knew? And that he was tarred and feathered for no apparent reason. Just. Just the narrative was very clear on all that.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] What about Joseph Smith and the word of Wisdom?

Randy Bell [00:31:14] Well, that he was what I recall being taught several times, that he had a problem with his leg and had surgery, and that he was offered whiskey or something, and he refused to have the whiskey when he had his leg operated on.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] Giving you the impression that what?

Randy Bell [00:31:32] Well, that Joseph Smith never drank alcohol at all, even though the word of wisdom hadn't been revealed at that point.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] Okay, yeah.

Randy Bell [00:31:41] So it was. There was no nuance. There was. It was all crystal clear.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] What were you taught about evolution in the age of the earth?

Randy Bell [00:31:52] Well, evolution was a big thing that we would debate, and, you know, it Wasn't Mormons didn't have a monopoly on claiming that evolution didn't happen. It was my Protestant friends and Catholic friends. It was kind of like evolution was talked about, but usually in the context of trying to rebut it from various religious perspectives, not just Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] But what were you taught in the Mormon Church about, let's just say the age of the earth?

Randy Bell [00:32:22] Well, I remember being taught explicitly the world was 7,000 years old. Frankly, I never believed that.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] And then just so you were taught it.

Randy Bell [00:32:32] I was taught that.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] About Noah and the ark and the flood.

Randy Bell [00:32:35] Oh, yeah. Quite literal. Literal flood. And I remember going to my bishop once because it seemed tough to believe that Mount Everest at whatever it is, 24,000ft, the sea levels rose to that level. And I asked my bishop about that and he said, and he was a doctor, bright guy. And he says, oh, no, that, you know, could have happened, you know, And I, you know, he was a doctor, I'm a little kid. And I said, okay, all right. I didn't quite get it. But, you know, that's what he said.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] And Adam and Eve were the first humans, basically.

Randy Bell [00:33:13] Yeah, yeah. No question about that. Adam and Eve were the first humans. And God took a rib from Adam's side and made Eve.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] No death before the fall of Adam and Eve.

Randy Bell [00:33:25] Right, yeah, yeah. All of that was standard. Standard lessons. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] I, so this is a side note. I did a survey of all my Mormon stories listeners just a couple days ago. No, we have half of our viewers on YouTube have never been Mormon. Half.

Randy Bell [00:33:42] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] It's the largest. Like I asked, what percentage of you are active believing Mormons? What percentage of you are inactive Mormons? What percentage of you are ex Mormons? What percentage of you have never been Mormon? The largest single group of our YouTube viewers have never been Mormon. So I'm going into some of this detail for the benefit of my majority non Mormon audience.

Randy Bell [00:34:03] Well, you know, but to be fair, it wasn't just Mormons. My Methodist friends believe the same thing. The kids that didn't go to church, pretty much there wasn't a lot of controversy in society at large over these issues. So, you know, and I look at it from a. I didn't grow up in Utah at all. So I, I, I had a very diverse friendship base and it was widespread.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:34:32] These kind of beliefs. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Okay. All right, so what do you want to tell about your high school years? We always talk about word of wisdom stuff, love chastity stuff, shame spiral stuff. And also we like to talk about kind of faith development. Testimony development, or any other big events in your life. So take it away.

Randy Bell [00:34:56] You know, I, I kind of. You know, in a lot of ways, I think my story's kind of boring.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:35:00] Because I, I was a pretty good kid. I, I.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] You weren't experimenting?

Randy Bell [00:35:07] No, I, I was a pretty good kid. I, I, I had some girls. There were some girls in high school that explicitly told me they wanted to have sex. And it's like I was, like, just unthinkable. Not going to happen. So I was a good kid.

John Dehlin [00:35:23] What about, like, beer, alcohol or weed? Like. Oh, I was going to say that, like, mid-70s. You graduated from high school what year?

Randy Bell [00:35:31] 77. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] Okay, so you're literally 10 years older than me. Yeah, so, like, you know, early 70s is Woodstock, and then mid-70s, it's, it's Eagles, it's. It's Fleetwood Mac. It's, you know, James Taylor, it's Elton John.

Randy Bell [00:35:49] And don't forget Peter Frampton.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] Peter Frampton, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin. You would remember when they would have died.

Randy Bell [00:35:57] Oh, yeah, completely. Elvis was a big, huge thing. I remember when he died. I worked in a music store on Chapman Avenue. So my job was to listen to music and be familiar. So when customers came in, all of the music was a huge thing. And it was amplified, no pun intended, by the fact that Fender was in the neighborhood. So that was huge. And that was a great part of growing up. And it was really weird because I'd be playing, like, Kiss or Pick a Band while I'm watching the Cars, my dad would come out and say, turn that noise off. And I go, dad, they're playing a Fender. And so there's always kind of this fun banter going on. But it was, it was a big thing.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] So your top five favorite rock and roll bands were.

Randy Bell [00:36:46] Well, one. First number one easily, is Led Zeppelin.

John Dehlin [00:36:50] I'm gonna. I'm not. I'm gonna not hold that again.

Randy Bell [00:36:52] Yeah, I know, I know. But we're, we're still gonna get along. We're gonna find common ground here in a second. I loved Aerosmith. Gee, there's so many. David Bowie was epic. Rolling Stones, epic. That's just four. I think, of the fifth one in a minute. But not Eagles.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] I mean, Eagles. Is that classic Southern California?

Randy Bell [00:37:14] Too soft for me. I like the hard rock, you know? I like to rock it, man.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] You know, Rush, we got to mention.

Randy Bell [00:37:20] Yeah, I like Rush. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] Okay. All right, so I gotta ask. Did you like Queen?

Randy Bell [00:37:27] Loved Queen. That would probably be my. That should be in my top five.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] Okay, yeah. So when I was growing up, Lex Diazevedo wrote a book called Pop Music and Morality. Now, this is in the 80s, but at some point in my, you know, early ish high school years, there was all this talk about, like, the Beatles back masking stuff and Queen putting marijuana into the back mask. You know, you would. You put on these LP albums that were made of vinyl and you could use your finger and make them go backwards.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] And you were told that maybe Stairway to Heaven would say, here's to my sweet Satan if you played it backwards. The Beatles started, I think, this backmasking kind of trend, but like Queen and Led Zeppelin and a lot of these bands I was taught that were evil as a Mormon kid because they talked about Satan, they love Satan, they worship Satan, blah, blah, blah. Did any of that come into your Mormon high school years of, like, stay away from these rock bands. They're satanic?

Randy Bell [00:38:28] A little bit, but a little bit, but not really. That was not a fun. Yeah, fortunately, that came after I enjoyed my high school years.

John Dehlin [00:38:37] Nice.

Randy Bell [00:38:39] You heard that stuff. I remember more with the Beatles. You play that backwards. John is dead or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Paul is dead.

Randy Bell [00:38:46] Paul is. Yeah, so one of them. But yeah. And we did it on our. You know, back then, you literally had vinyl records and we did it at home and we kind of heard it. But, you know, you take our podcast and play it backwards, you're going to hear something.

Carah Burrell [00:38:59] Yeah. If you play Mormon stories backwards, it says, john is dead. I put that in there.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:39:05] So I didn't. That was just kind of a goofy, kind of conspiracy theory in my mind at least.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] Okay, all right. Okay, good. All right. So you. So you didn't even try weed or.

Randy Bell [00:39:17] No, no, I was a good kid. You know, when I went to my.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] A good kid, all my audience is like, all the gen zers are rolling their eyes.

Randy Bell [00:39:27] I know, I know. What can I say?

John Dehlin [00:39:29] But did you hear that? Good kid, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:39:31] I actually don't even know what you mean. It sounds like he was a good kid.

Randy Bell [00:39:35] I was a Mother Teresa. And, you know, I did sneak out a lot of my bedroom in the middle of the night and do pranks with my friends. And I did have a couple visits with the Fullerton Police Department.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] Ooh.

Randy Bell [00:39:46] Yeah. I mean, we did some stupid things.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] Pranks.

Randy Bell [00:39:51] They were pranks, but other people didn't find them amusing.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Was toilet papering a Mormon thing or

Randy Bell [00:39:56] was that what all that was a universal back in the day, Carah, was

John Dehlin [00:40:01] toilet papering a thing when you were

Carah Burrell [00:40:02] growing up only the bad kids, not me.

Randy Bell [00:40:04] Oh.

Carah Burrell [00:40:05] I was watching Princess Bride in, like a clubhouse with all my girlfriends.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] We were good kids when I was growing up. If there was a girl you thought was cute and you went to a steak dance and. And you wanted to, like, send her the signal that you really liked her, you and your buddies would go toilet paper her house.

Randy Bell [00:40:21] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] And throw, you know, get the toilet paper rolls, throw them over the high trees. And she'd wake up in the morning and, yeah, it's a little bit of a pain and her parents wouldn't love it, but that was just what you did. And it was kind of. You'd smile and you'd laugh and it would be like, yeah, that's what you did to kind of show someone affection. I was one of those guys that

Randy Bell [00:40:40] was very Mormon growing. We did that and we did some egging kind of things. There are some things I'm simply not going to tell publicly that were pretty. Pretty. I'd kill my kids if they did them. But overall, I made it through unscathed pretty well.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] What about ever, like, awkward bishop's interviews where he's asking you about.

Randy Bell [00:41:05] Well, there was one. I'll tell you, it's kind of funny. I was 11 and a half, getting ready to become a deacon, and the bishop asked me if I masturbated. And I said no, because I had no idea what he's talking about. I honestly didn't.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] You hadn't learned the word yet.

Randy Bell [00:41:22] I didn't even know the word. I didn't know what he.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] And so I went, you hadn't watched Skilligan's island yet.

Randy Bell [00:41:27] Apparently, I missed that episode. So the next Monday, or whatever it was, I go to school and I'm sitting around the table and I didn't know what I was asking, and I said to my group of buddies, I said, does anybody know what masturbate means? And they all go. They're all looking at each other like, no, no, no, no. And this one goes, oh, yeah, I know. And we were, like, really curious. What? And he goes, that's where you play with your diddly. And I go, it's like, why would anybody do that? It just sounded absurd. But thanks to that bishop, I learned about what it was.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] But.

Randy Bell [00:42:07] But my bishops were cool. And I got to, you know, I graduated from high school in 18, and then you don't go on a mission until you're 19. And I landed on those interviews, and my interview is over in about seven minutes.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] You were the good boy.

Randy Bell [00:42:24] I wasn't John Dehlin. But I was a pretty good kid.

John Dehlin [00:42:28] What did you have interest in high school and how did you envision your profession or your career being as you were graduating from high school? Did you have a sense for what you wanted to do or be? Did you have hobbies that you were really into that really defined you?

Randy Bell [00:42:43] Well, my hobbies I don't think I could really monetize. I mean, it was a lot of water skiing, going to the beach, you know, so surfing?

John Dehlin [00:42:49] What about surfing?

Randy Bell [00:42:50] I was more a body surfer. I was really good at water skiing and I had really great balance and I could cut and hit my elbow in the water and all that. But surfing, I tried several times. I just never got it. Okay. But that's probably because I probably spent more time water skiing. But. But anyway, were you academic? I was. I was the kind of kid that never, ever studied and got B pluses. So I don't know if that's academic. I got B.I. in high school.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:43:20] Not at that time in my life. I was not that interested in, you know, sitting down with a book.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:43:27] It was more about having fun.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] All right.

Randy Bell [00:43:30] You know, crazy fun.

BYU, Mission Preparation, and Teen Years

John Dehlin [00:43:32] So back then, most kids, most Mormon kids tried to get into BYU their freshman year. If there were men before they would go on a mission. What were you thinking about graduating byu?

Randy Bell [00:43:44] At that point in my life, I had no interest in BYU back then. Quite quite honestly, if you could fog a mirror, you could get into byu. I mean, it was really easy to get into byu. Today is a different deal. But back then, you know, that's the way it was. No, I went to Cal State for a year before my mission.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] Which one?

Randy Bell [00:44:05] Cal State Fullerton, where I'm from. And it was right across the street from my high school. So I literally just walked another block and I'm there at Cal State. So I went there. My bishop's interview was like a couple minutes because I was friends with his son. He already knew all my visits with the police and everything. And there's not a lot to say. And then I think you'll get a kick out of this. But I went to the stake president and he was this guy that was tall and had big white hair and very.

Randy Bell [00:44:45] I don't know the word, I don't know the word, but a real air about him. And he sat down on this big leather chair and it looked like he was there to sit and talk to me for the whole evening, the whole night. And he goes after the pleasantries and, hi, how you doing? All that. He goes well, you know, let's talk about your sins. And I go, well, I already kind of went over that with the bishop, and he seemed like, well, you need to go over with me. And it's like, okay. So I went through my two or three minutes of little things I had done, and he goes, okay, what else?

Randy Bell [00:45:23] And I go, that's it. And he goes, there's gotta be more. I go, no, that's about it. He goes, everybody has more than that. And I literally said to him, I said, I can make stuff up, but that's all I got, dude. So that's it.

Randy Bell [00:45:40] And he just looked defeated. He just wanted to relish in a long night of graveling and sin. And there just wasn't much to talk about because everybody knew that knew me that I was a screw off. I liked to pull pranks and do this and do that, and I was always sneaking out. But as far as, you know, the evil's weed, devil's weed, or anything that, you know, that's just not where I went, so.

John Dehlin [00:46:07] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:46:07] And he kind of goes, okay, you're good to go.

Serving a Mission in England

John Dehlin [00:46:11] All right. So I guess you did serve a mission. Anything you want to say about your mission?

Randy Bell [00:46:17] Well, yeah, because I'll tell you how I knew the church was true. I got a letter in the mail and I opened it up and it was to Birmingham, England, where Led Zeppelin's from. So I was ecstatic to go to England, and England was. I fell in love with the place. I just. To this day, I love England and wonderful people. I just love it. I was happy as a clam there.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] Was it hard to have baptismal success in Birmingham?

Randy Bell [00:46:48] Well, we had a motto that for every door we knocked on, they baptized someone in South America, and for every baptism they had there, we knocked on a door. We had success, but it wasn't anything like what was going off in Mexico and South America, that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] So, like, your whole mission, do you even have a number for how many people?

Randy Bell [00:47:07] Well, I do, but I don't know what I want to share. I personally had a relative to England had a lot of success.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Okay. Were you aware of the baseball baptism scandals that had happened 10 years prior? Yeah, or 10 or 20 years prior. And was there cleanup or were there rumors about that that you heard of?

Randy Bell [00:47:29] Yeah, I was. There was a lot of cleanup. I served part of my mission in the mission office, and part of my job was going through records, and we would go and knock on people's door and say, you know, you're listed as a Member, did you want to be a member? And they'd say, I don't. I have a vague recollection of that kind of, you know, discussion. And we would, you know, honor their wishes to remove their names or whatever. Whatever that looked like.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] And, yeah. Yeah, they would have joined because the church was creating baseball leagues in the early 60s.

Randy Bell [00:48:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] And they would have had baptism as being a requirement to. To play in the baseball leagues. And that's how they would have been baptized. Right.

Randy Bell [00:48:17] Unfortunately, that's all true and obviously embarrassing for, you know, as a missionary to realize that that had happened before. We were more on the cleanup side of things at that point. But no question it happened.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] Okay. Okay. So any other stuff from your mission that you want to talk about or.

Randy Bell [00:48:42] Not really. I had two great mission presidents. They were very kind. I liked them both. It was a good experience.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] So by the time you left your mission, if you were given 30 seconds to bear your testimony, what would you have said?

Randy Bell [00:49:01] Well, before I do that, one thought does come up. Because in England, you would hear almost on a daily basis, you know, the topic of polygamy, and it was almost every person you talked to, and we would have to say, no, we didn't practice polygamy. And, no, Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy. And, yeah, Brigham Young did briefly, for these reasons. And then the church, you know, dismissed that as a practice, you know, while going. And that was a daily thing. And occasionally, people in England are profoundly polite and met only two or three rude people the entire time.

Randy Bell [00:49:38] And so that was. Oh, occasionally you'd meet somebody who was a little more turned up, you know, a little wound a little tighter, who would say, well, you know, you used to come to England, you know, you. Meaning the Mormon missionaries, and, you know, tell lies and take our daughters and take our sisters off to Utah. And they were pretty bent, pretty upset about it. And of course, we would deny that, you know, that. That we weren't doing that. That's what we thought was true.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] Oh, yeah. Because Joseph Smith had sent missionaries to England, and for some reason, a lot of teenage girls ended up coming to, you know, Kirtland or Nauvoo.

Randy Bell [00:50:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Almost in a trafficking kind of way, it seems. And so that might have. And I guess the church was denying that there was any polygamy going on.

Randy Bell [00:50:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] In the 1840s and 50s, while there was polygamy going on and that that might have been problematic for the UK folk.

Randy Bell [00:50:38] It was very problematic. And we were telling people what we had been taught, that that didn't happen that those were anti Mormon lies and that, you know, we were, you know, just there to take their truth and add to it kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] Yeah. Okay, so if you had. If you were given 30 seconds to bear your testimony at the end of your mission, what would that testimony have sounded like?

Randy Bell [00:51:02] Well, it would sound like, I know that God lives. I know Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is the prophet of the Restoration. And the Book of Mormon came forth on gold plates as a second witness that Jesus visited America and we have true apostles and prophets today. That would be basically the. The message.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:51:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] All right. So where did you go after your mission?

Randy Bell [00:51:30] I came home and wasn't sure what I was going to do. I'll never forget when we broke through the clouds because I hadn't seen the sun in England for months. And then I'm back in Southern California and a buddy of mine came over and he says, hey, we're going up to BYU and you can get in. You can fog a mirror, you know, and you're a returned missionary 100%. You're in. And we got a place. We got a bedroom for you at a house up there. You know, come on up. And I looked at my parents and they go, I don't know, whatever. Get out of here.

Randy Bell [00:52:03] So very quickly, I unexpectedly found myself up at BYU and got up there, had a lot of fun. The social life was great. I was getting a little more academic at this time, believe it or not. I don't know if I ever told you this, but I applied for a job to teach at the mtc and I got the job, which was surprising.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] It wasn't the LTM at that point.

Randy Bell [00:52:33] No, it was the MTC at that point. And they had billed it. Because when I went on a mission, you met in Salt Lake City, and we were warned about Sandra Tanner. I remember that. That she might be outside handing out pamphlets. So we were scared to death of Sandra Tanner. But no, when we got back, it was the mtc.

Randy Bell [00:52:53] But I was recruited into this special division of seven teachers who were doing pilots of. Remember the old. Do you remember the rainbow discussions? Oh, well, that's where every discussion had a different color of paper. And you memorize them. Mr. Brown. Mrs. Brown. And you got kudos as a missionary for literally memorizing. And it wasn't always a natural way of speaking. So it was kind of an awkward memorization.

Randy Bell [00:53:21] And they were trying to take those discussions that I went on a mission with and translate them into more a conversational bullet point tone. Thing. And so I was teaching the mtc and the rooms that I taught in had one way or two way mirror, you know, where people could be in a room behind there and observe the classes. So I taught the class and everything was going great. And I was kind of liking. In fact, I was kind of thinking at that time, you know, I really love the church. I think I could really get into this. I mean, I think I could really, you know, get in, become a seminary teacher.

Randy Bell [00:53:57] I was really kind of thinking about that avenue because I didn't know what I wanted to do career wise. And I finished the lesson this day and I went out in the hall and this guy comes charging up to me who was on the staff overseeing these new lessons that were being developed. And he was livid. I mean, you could just. His blood pressure was through the roof and he goes, who are you, Elder Bell, to explain away God's miracles? Because I had taught in the class. I should mention the story I'd read in the paper about when Noah crossed the Red Sea and an avalanche, scientists had discovered an avalanche, the part of the sea temporarily or something.

Randy Bell [00:54:37] I explained this in the class and he was all upbet that I had shared this in the class. I said, I'm not explaining the way God's miracles. I'm saying God has miracles and maybe this is the way it was done. That's all. And his blood pressure went down, but he was so mad. And that really shocked me.

John Dehlin [00:54:56] Is that because you're using science to try and explain a miracle that had been taught as kind of God's intervention kind of thing?

Randy Bell [00:55:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it wasn't to explain away God. That was never my intent. It was more an article supporting that God had created this miracle. But this is maybe the mechanics of how he did it more that avenue. But the more I was at the mtc, the more I just got this vibe of high blood pressure. I don't know how to put it other than that. And I decided that just wasn't for me. That was where I kind of. I attributed it. And I don't mean to be offensive to anybody, kind of Utah Mormonism, as opposed to California, which was a little more like how I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] Got it.

Post-Mission Life, Career, and Deep Church Involvement

Carah Burrell [00:55:46] So when you said that you were really into this whole Mormon thing and feeling like you were really vibing and connecting and potentially be a teacher, were you liking all aspects of Mormonism? Did you like the temple? Sometimes people have like holdouts. How did you feel about the temple?

Randy Bell [00:56:01] Yeah, you know, Carah, the thing is, I Kind of skipped over the temple, didn't I? The first time I went to the temple, honestly, I was in shock. There's no way to put it otherwise. And I looked at my dad on the way.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] Parts were shocking if you're. Unless you're not comfortable sharing.

Randy Bell [00:56:19] I want to respect the fact that that's sacred to a lot of my family and friends. But I just will say I was in shock. But on the way I went to the LA temple and on the way out, I'll never forget, we went out the doors there and I looked at my dad. I think he just saw that I was in shock. And he says, don't worry, you keep going back and it gets. You start understanding the symbolism. And I kind of took his word at that. So I kind of had shelved that one. Carah. I just. But as far as I remember, at byu I was taking a speed reading class at the same time I was taking a religion class.

Randy Bell [00:57:00] And I remember speed reading these big thick, thick manuals and noticing contradictions where somebody would say one thing on page 124 and on page 687 somebody else would be saying something quite opposite. I kind of started noticing that, but I wasn't paying attention to it.

Randy Bell [00:57:23] And I was still just kind of in it to win it. Gung ho. I grew up. I forgot to mention Paul H. Dunn was a big deal. You never felt the spirit stronger than when Paul H. Dunn gave his talks. And I was still kind of in that mindset where I was just kind of happy with it all.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Was Bruce R. McConkie Mormonism or Joseph Fielding Smith Mormonism? Was it really at its stride at that point? I know by the time I was in the mid-80s it was all about bridge R. McConkey and Joseph Fielding Smith and doctrines of salvation. A very literalistic, very almost fundamentalist type Mormonism. Was, Was that catching hold in the late 70s?

Randy Bell [00:58:15] Yeah. Mormon doctrine came out when I was in high school and I, I had a copy that I, I preferred to read that than anything else because it was just kind of in bite sized pieces and it was like cutting through everything, giving you the answer. I know that I was always very uncomfortable with the blacks and the priesthood issue. That never resonated at all for non Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] What do you mean by that?

Randy Bell [00:58:42] Well, when I was growing up in 1979, I believe that changed.

John Dehlin [00:58:45] 78.

Randy Bell [00:58:46] Yeah, 78. Excuse me. Yeah, I was on my mission before that. Yeah. But back in high school, the blacks and the priests thing really bothered me.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Explain what that is. For non Muslims.

Randy Bell [00:59:02] Oh, I'm sorry. The blacks couldn't receive the priesthood, meaning they couldn't go to the temple, which is the pinnacle of Mormon worship. You couldn't be sealed in the temple, meaning your family, your black families could not be sealed and be in heaven together.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] Or even that endowment ceremony that you just described, if you had black friends who for some bizarre reason would either investigate Mormonism or join, they wouldn't be able to go be missionaries or go through the temple. Is that right?

Randy Bell [00:59:31] Right. And you know, I grew up in a very predominantly white neighborhood. So on a practical who my friends were basis, that wasn't an issue. But as a policy or as a concept, felt very uncomfortable with it. My dad, when the LA riots broke out, my dad said, randy, Watts riots? Kind of, yeah, yeah, we went through. My dad took me there, took me to Watts, and I saw the smoldering buildings, I saw the families that had no place to live out on the streets. It was profoundly disturbing. And I just thought, you know, how could anybody pick on a marginalized segment of society and add to their misery?

Randy Bell [01:00:16] We should be helping these people. That was always my feeling on that topic, and I never liked that. And why on earth I went along to get along with that kind of thing. I look back and I don't have a good answer other than I don't have a good answer.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Well, it's kind of like you said with the temple ceremony. I don't think I've ever met a person who went through the temple and thought it was amazing. They all thought it was creepy, weird or violent or barbaric. But there's always the faithful Mormon family member or leader that says, hey, don't worry about it, you'll be okay. Over time, you'll accustomed to this. And the blacks in the priesthood thing would have been similar. It's like, hey, all in due time, God will help you understand why these things happened.

Randy Bell [01:01:03] Yeah, that's all true, John. The only thing I'd add is to. To be, again, to be fair to the church, racial prejudice. I woke up reading the LA Times every morning and I would be horrified at what I read was going on at places like Alabama and Louisiana and the Deep south and all of that that was alive and well and the whole segregated drinking fountains, that was in society. I'm not saying it was right, it was wrong, but it wasn't as if society had grown up and the Mormon Church was lagging behind at that point in time. It was a societal problem and Mormons were included.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] Yeah, except that the Civil Rights act of 1964 was 14 years before Mormon Church. I mean, it's kind of fair to say the Mormon church was like 10 years later than everybody else.

Randy Bell [01:01:59] No question with the lagging. But I'm just going right back to the 60s, you know, when I was a lot. The Watts riot was going on.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] Got it, got it.

Randy Bell [01:02:08] But I think what you're saying is fair.

The 1978 Priesthood Revelation and Marriage at Thirty

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Do you remember when the 1978 priesthood revelation came through and how you felt.

Randy Bell [01:02:16] Not only do I remember, I was on my mission and we had been out tracting, and we knocked on the door, and this young lady who was black answered the door, and she seemed very sweet and very kind, and she had a child, a young son, and she says, I'm really busy right now, but you can come back. And I kept telling my. I was a junior companion. I just got on my mission, and I kept saying, we should go back and see that lady. She asked us to come back. And he kept saying, no, no, no. And he just kind of brushed me off.

Randy Bell [01:02:47] He was a senior companion, so what was I to do? And as soon as he got transferred, I got a new companion. My first appointment was to go back and knock on her door. And we knocked on the door and I said, hi, you told us to come back. And she said, oh, yeah, yeah, come on in. We taught her and I baptized her.

Randy Bell [01:03:07] And I got choked up because it was a big moment to realize that this garbage was behind us from a Mormon perspective. And I really remember it because of that.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] And I'm guessing that Mormon missionaries prior to 1978 would not have wanted to teach black families. Why? Because they would have had to have that awkward conversation.

Randy Bell [01:03:38] Very awkward conversation.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] And

Randy Bell [01:03:43] it was an ugly time in that category. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:47] About why they can join but they can't participate in full fellowship. That would have been awkward.

Randy Bell [01:03:53] Awkward's the politest way to. As RFM would say. That's the most charitable way to put it.

John Dehlin [01:03:59] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, okay. So you. You do the BYU thing. You did the MTC teacher thing.

Randy Bell [01:04:07] Yeah, I graduated from the Y. I moved to. I. I didn't get married at that point. I moved to Silicon Valley and, you know, did some high tech stuff and then changed careers. I wasn't sure what I was doing with my career.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] That was kind of Hewlett Packard days, that Apple, maybe Microsoft, weren't quite on the scene.

Randy Bell [01:04:29] Apple had just come out with their Apple and Apple II and Apple II Plus. I remember all those. You know, your buddy Bill Gates was just starting out. It was a really. Everything was going off like a rocket in Silicon Valley, and it was too much. My personality is a little more real estate damage. Economics is where I ended up, and real estate suited me better because it's a little more stable and I can wrap my head around it. So I moved to Southern California and got married. And how old were you when you got married? I was, I think about 30. I was kind of late.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] Wow.

Randy Bell [01:05:11] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] So were there ever parts where you kind of went astray? Because that's a long time to wait if you're obeying the Law of Chastity. 30 is. There's a movie about. It's a 40 year, actually.

Randy Bell [01:05:24] Well, you know, it's no secret. When I was in Southern California, I knew Sean McCraney when he was an elders quorum president because there was a period before that where I was actually engaged to Sean's sister. And I love the McCanney family. In fact, I learned about Rick Warren from Mrs. From. I called her sister McCraney, who sadly just passed away. But. So it wasn't like I wasn't doing anything. But, yeah, there was that. And then I. I got married when I was about 30. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] So wait, are you saying you kind of strayed or you didn't.

Randy Bell [01:05:58] Oh, I didn't stray too bad. It was pretty good. Pretty good guy.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] That's a long time to wait.

Randy Bell [01:06:03] Got married in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:06:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] All right. So you got married at 34 kids. That's late. That's. I mean, Brigham Young's got that famous quote about you're a menace to society if you're. If you're a Mormon man and you're not married, by what age?

Randy Bell [01:06:21] I forget. But I think I broke that rule along with a few others.

John Dehlin [01:06:25] Was there, like, a single scene in Southern California for single Mormons?

Randy Bell [01:06:30] Well, yeah. Huntington beach had. You know, Sean's family's from Huntington Beach. I was down there a lot. They had a singles ward.

John Dehlin [01:06:39] Heather Gay talked about this. That, like Huntington beach, and then the. The D.C. wards in Washington. There's like, two wards where, like, all the wealthy. The children of wealthy families that wanted to meet other prominent, wealthy Mormons but weren't married by the time they left BYU, they would either go to Huntington beach or Washington, D.C. well, I wasn't

Randy Bell [01:06:59] wealthy, but I still snuck in there.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] I guess those words are. I'm just saying those words are kind of famous. Those single wars, apparently are kind of famous.

Randy Bell [01:07:06] I think you're right. And, yeah, a lot of the Huntington beach ward was packed there Were a lot of people there.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] Singles word.

Randy Bell [01:07:12] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:07:13] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:07:14] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:07:15] Also that's a quote from the singles ward and not actually attributed to Brigham Young.

John Dehlin [01:07:19] What is. Oh, really?

Carah Burrell [01:07:20] Being a minister society. I just generice. I just looked it up.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] Oh, it was actually never said that.

Carah Burrell [01:07:26] Yeah, she said he'd never said that. It's just a quote that goes around. That was quoted in.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] Look at you. Fact checking. Care, Burrell.

Randy Bell [01:07:32] Nice work, man.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] All right, so you get married at 30.

Randy Bell [01:07:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] In the LA temple in the LA. And you're going to live the Mormon dream. Let me ask you one question.

Randy Bell [01:07:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] At this point in your life, you're 30, what did Jesus mean to you? Was it just Mormon Jesus? Did you feel like you had a personal relationship with Jesus? Was it just standard vanilla? Do you feel like you had no relationship with Jesus but you said you believed in Jesus? Is there anything you want to say about your Jesusly hood at this part in your life? Because obviously Jesus becomes really important later.

Randy Bell [01:08:06] Yeah, that's a fantastic question because I always preferred reading the New Testament over anything else. And when I was a kid, you never mentioned the Book of Mormon without mentioning the Bible. It never happened. And somewhere along the line at morph to where you go to sacrament meeting fast and testimony meeting, people would get up out of the congregation and bear their testimonies. They would just mention the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] Only that was Ezra Taf Benson. He's the one that just flipped and said it's all about the Book of Mormon. That would have been in the mid to late 80s.

Randy Bell [01:08:39] Okay. Well, I missed that memo. But I knew. So I knew something happened, you know, And. But prior to that, it was always the Bible in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:08:49] And I preferred the New Testament.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:08:51] If I was going to read scriptures, that was. That's what I liked.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] You were a Jesus Mormon?

Randy Bell [01:08:55] Yeah, yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] My dad was a Jesus Mormon. He said, I'm not big on the Book of Mormon, but that. That New Testament, I'm down with that.

Randy Bell [01:09:02] Well, I love the Book of Mormon insofar as I love the idea of Jesus going to the Americas, but there was really not much that Jesus said there that he didn't say in the New Testament. So I just preferred to read the New Testament.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] Pretty much everything Jesus said is like literally copied from the New Testament in the Book of Mormon. Ironically, somehow Jesus pretty much speaks verbatim in the Book of Mormon. What he said.

Randy Bell [01:09:25] That's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, but I always did that. And then Sean McCraney's mom, sister Craney, she would always. She was a true believing Mormon, but she would always supplement her, as you say, Jesushood with Rick Warren. And I never heard of Rick Warren

John Dehlin [01:09:43] before, for those who don't know. Who's Rick Warren?

Randy Bell [01:09:45] Rick Warren is the pastor of Saddleback Church. And it's Orange County. Right, Orange County.

John Dehlin [01:09:50] There's like, the megachurch, is it not.

Randy Bell [01:09:52] It's gigantic. It is really gigantic. And he's incredibly charismatic and. But she would have these cassette tapes of Rick Warren, and I thought that was kind of interesting that she was a devout Mormon, but she wasn't getting enough Jesus there, so she listened to Rick Warren to get that.

Carah Burrell [01:10:13] That's what I did.

Randy Bell [01:10:14] Is that right?

Carah Burrell [01:10:15] Yeah. I mean, not Rick Warren, but I had other pastors. Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:10:17] Oh, interesting.

Carah Burrell [01:10:18] Yeah. I was only listening to Sermons from 2011 till 2019. If I was doing anything spiritual, it was not listening to, like, General Conference. It was listening to a sermon that I read. That's fascinating because I wanted that vitamin G. I wanted the grace. I wanted, like, the Jesus loves me gospel.

Randy Bell [01:10:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:35] Randy, did you know Carah was, like, super Jesused up, like her last time?

Randy Bell [01:10:38] I know that. And I'm. I gotta listen to you. I listened to your episode, Carah. I gotta listen to it again because that's fascinating.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:10:44] Yeah. I'm really excited to get into this part of it. I just am curious where you went with this. So.

Randy Bell [01:10:49] Yeah, well, we're getting there.

Carah Burrell [01:10:50] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:10:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] So Rick Warren's getting sprinkled into your Mormonism.

Randy Bell [01:10:53] Yeah, yeah. And I really liked Rick. Rick Warren. At first I was afraid, you know, because you know how those Christians can be. But. But that's where I learned about it from Sean McCraney's mom.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] Okay. All right.

Randy Bell [01:11:08] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:11:09] So.

Randy Bell [01:11:10] So I'm living in Orange county, have a house and, you know, having a family, had four kids. And I was. I was very. We were. I was the. What do you call it? The finance clerk.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] What ward, or standstake, would you have been raising your family?

Randy Bell [01:11:33] I was in the Laguna Niguel Stake. Laguna Niguel Ward, I think is what it was called.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:11:40] And I was quite happy. I was the finance clerk. Then I was in Young Men's. And they. One day I got a phone call and they said, hey, Brother Bill, can we come over to your house? Sure, come on over. And like, seven people came over. It's like this entourage. And they said, we've prayed about it and we want to call you to be a seminary teacher. And I knew the whole Thing about never turning down a calling. So I said, well, the answer is yes. But before you accept my yes, let me get my calendar. I went in my home office and I grabbed my calendar and I brought it in and I said, okay, on this day, I am in Cincinnati.

Randy Bell [01:12:23] On this day, I'm in wherever, Atlanta. And I went through my travel thing and I said, so in a typical month, I'm always here religiously for Saturday and Sunday, but Monday through Friday, chances are good I'm flying somewhere because at this point, I started getting into real estate damage economics. And they looked at my calendar and they said, well, we're going to. What do you call it? Retract our invitation for you to teach seminary. But I was kind of on that

John Dehlin [01:12:56] track,

Randy Bell [01:12:58] but I was happy as a clam. And then we moved from there to Cota de Casa. That was Rancho Santa Margarita Steak and, you know, same kind of thing. I loved the church. I was quite, quite content there.

John Dehlin [01:13:16] Were you, like, hoping to someday be a bishop? Were you wanting to kind of advance in the ranks of the church? Were you, Were you, Were you doing family meeting and scripture study with your kids? Were you, Were you in it to win it? Orthodox Mormon.

Randy Bell [01:13:31] As a dad, I was kind of like my parents. I was. We went to church every Sunday. I, as far as the bishop thing, I didn't. I was really fulfilled with my career as far as whatever you want to call that kind of fulfillment. I had had. I haven't really touched on this, but I had had both really, really good bishops and stake presidents, and I've had really, really bad bishops and stake presidents. And I always kind of wrote that off to. I guess when you become a bishop or stake president, you get an extra dose of temptation. And I didn't want that. That's how I explained the fact that one of my stake presidents went to prison and one of them was caught having an affair and one of them told blatant lies.

Randy Bell [01:14:23] So the Mormon leadership thing wasn't really where I was driving. I was quite content just being a good rank and file member because someone had told me along the line that if you're a good rank and file member, you live right next door to the prophet in heaven or something like that. It's like, okay, well, great. I'll kind of go with the career I like and not worry about it.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] So not a super fundamentalist kind of Mormon. A little bit more relaxed, but still devout.

Randy Bell [01:14:52] I was more relaxed devout. I was the guy that. I always had a Book of Mormon in my briefcase when I was on a plane and I would give. And I talked to people next to me and tell them about it. I tried not to be obnoxious. You know, others can judge whether I succeeded or not, but, but yeah, I was devout. I was, I was kind of like, I say, like I was like my parents.

John Dehlin [01:15:16] Okay, really quickly, you ended up going to grad school at ucla.

Randy Bell [01:15:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] Do you want to talk about that and how it, and then we can kind of flow into your career if you want.

Randy Bell [01:15:26] Sure. Well, grad school was great. I had always loved John Wooden.

John Dehlin [01:15:32] I, I, he's the basketball coach, famous basketball coach at ucla.

Randy Bell [01:15:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:37] That would have coached what, Bill Walton and Kareem, I guess, or maybe not.

Randy Bell [01:15:42] Yeah, he, he was, he coached everyone. He won 10 national titles. I don't think that's ever been. I don't think even Coach K has beat that. I grew up, as I say, reading the LA Times. I loved John Wooden, still do. Got a chance to meet him once and just adored the guy. And I think because of Wooden, I just loved ucla. So it was a dream come true to go to grad school there.

Randy Bell [01:16:10] I loved Hit me because I had both. I had graduated from BYU and had that experience and then ucla. I couldn't help but notice, I don't mean to say this to be condescending, but at ucla you seem to be just kind of treated as an adult. You could kind of do what you want and decide what you want and drink what you want or not drink what you want. And everybody seemed to be get along and, and there wasn't this surveillance feeling of being, you know, surveilled all the time. So that was kind of a thought that came to mind.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] And you were studying what,

Randy Bell [01:16:51] finance and real estate, basically.

John Dehlin [01:16:53] Okay, yeah. All right.

Randy Bell [01:16:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:57] All right. So I, you know, as you, as you kind of put an outline together of kind of the, you know, interesting things you, you mentioned at the beginning, but like Heaven's Gate, World Trade center, the Pulse Nightclub, Sandy Hook, O.J. simpson, Katrina. I don't think you're just mentioning those as kind of like a who's who kind of thing. Right. But I get a sense that, that many of those experiences in your career, maybe there were pieces from those experiences that ended up informing your eventual questioning of the church. And so, like, maybe just talk us through your career. Things that would be really interesting, but also if they touch on your, on your processing Mormonism, you know, that's super interesting.

Leading the Prop 8 Campaign in California

Randy Bell [01:17:44] Yeah, they, each of these, I've had hundreds of cases, but I picked A few that really kind of resonated with my Mormon story, Heaven's Gate.

John Dehlin [01:17:56] Those who don't know what that is, I can't believe.

Randy Bell [01:17:58] Yeah, you're right, John. Some people don't know. Heaven's Gate was the biggest mass suicide in the history of the United States. It was a house, a big mansion in San Diego. And this cult, the Heaven's Gate cult, committed mass suicide by eating poisonous pudding. And how many people? 39 died. Yeah. And there was a 40th guy who was trying to get in. And that was part of the story a lot of the public doesn't know about.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] So the Jim Jones thing was bigger, but it was in Guyana, so it doesn't.

Randy Bell [01:18:26] That was the world's biggest. Yeah, the US Was Heaven's Gate. I worked on that case for a couple years and I really got acquainted in a secular, academic way with cult and cult behavior and what drives a culture. And I went through the home many times figuring out what made this whole thing tick. And I always took offense at when people called the Mormon Church a cult. I didn't like that. And frankly, I still don't.

Randy Bell [01:19:01] When I think of a cult, I think of Heaven's Gate. And what happened at Heaven's Gate was regardless of what people feel about with Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientology, that's a whole different level than what goes on in these kind of cults, because it's truly evil in terms of brainwashing people to the point of killing themselves. And that's what happened there. And I was very curious how he made that happen.

Randy Bell [01:19:29] The leader of the cult, his name was Doe, his real name was Marshall Applewhite. And he took away the ability or necessity of anybody to think. Every light switch was labeled, every jar was labeled, everything in the closet was labeled, every drawer was labeled. And so you never had to think for yourself about anything. Everything was pre programmed. You literally went two by two everywhere you went into the house. You went to the bathroom with somebody next to you.

Randy Bell [01:19:59] And there was a deliberate effort to delete and negate any independent thinking at an extreme level. And that's how he got away with this crazy scheme. And so this is part of my journey, but more in the defense of the Mormon Church, that I don't like when people call the Mormon Church a cult, and I don't like name calling in general, honestly.

John Dehlin [01:20:28] Okay. And as you learn about Heaven's Gate, did you make any connections at the time to Joseph Smith?

Randy Bell [01:20:35] None. None. I don't.

John Dehlin [01:20:38] That's Fine.

Randy Bell [01:20:38] Yeah. I didn't. I. I put it on there because it was more like, I'm going through these cases, I'm having these things. But I wore. I wore a lot of this, like a badge of honor, like, you know, as. As a defense for the church to some degree, which I still kind of do. You know, the World Trade Center, I worked on that. And that was religious fanaticism. But again, in a very toxic, horrific sense of the word, I mentioned the Pulse nightclub because that's where I changed my views. Even though I stayed in the church, I changed my views on the LGBT issue completely. I was horrified with what I saw in there. I can't even talk about it without getting emotional. So I'm. I'm a true LGBT ally. So each of these cases, I mean, I'm happy to discuss or not discuss, whatever kind of. Whatever you want to do.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] Yeah. So the Pulse nightclub was. Was a shooter going in and shooting

Randy Bell [01:21:41] up dozens of gay men.

John Dehlin [01:21:45] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:21:46] And I've been to a lot of crime scenes, a lot of them. Most crime scenes don't make the news or make only the local news. I've been to innumerable crime scenes with the work that I do. But the Pulse nightclub was probably the singular most horrific thing I've ever seen. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] Were you part of Prop 8 before the pulse nightclub? And do you want to talk about that? Oh, gee.

Randy Bell [01:22:13] Yeah. It's so embarrassing. I was in. Living in Laguna Beach.

John Dehlin [01:22:17] Give our listeners, for those who don't have any idea what even Prop 8 was. Yeah, back it up. And just from your perspective, you're a Mormon raising your family. It's 2008, Southern California. And tell us, you know, what the state of marriage was at the time, and then how. How your Mormon church experience all of a sudden starts introducing some complexity into your life.

Randy Bell [01:22:41] Yeah, well, I was living in Laguna beach with my family, and I got a. And at the time, it was. Marriage was defined as one man, one woman, and that was just considered society's normal.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] That was your belief. Yeah, but the state of California had a different.

Randy Bell [01:23:00] Well, the state of California had a different idea that was called Prop 8. Proposition 8 was on the ballot.

John Dehlin [01:23:04] Wait, before Prop 8 got on the ballot, wasn't same sex marriage legal in California? Wasn't that the whole point? Prop 8 was to take away.

Randy Bell [01:23:13] Yeah. Excuse me, John, you remember it better than I do. Yeah. I think the state of California had allowed same sex marriage as some other states had. I think Hawaii and some others. And California was next.

John Dehlin [01:23:27] Do you remember as a Devout Mormon, how you would have felt with California legalizing same sex marriage, do you remember?

Randy Bell [01:23:34] Well, on me personally, I could, I could have cared less back then. Back then, okay. Even as a true believing Mormon, I didn't care.

John Dehlin [01:23:41] You didn't care?

Randy Bell [01:23:42] No.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] But then all of a sudden the, in 2008, the church decides it's going to fight same sex marriage in California. Because the, the philosophy was as goes California, so goes the nation. So the Mormon Church, one of its worst nightmares was at the time and to this day continues to be massive acceptance of same sex marriage. The church did not want that to happen. California legalizes it. And so the Mormon Church decides we're going to, we're going to. In a sovereign U.S. state.

Randy Bell [01:24:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:16] We're going to spend as much money and as much volunteer effort and as much corporate effort as we can to take same sex marriage away from a sovereign US state, meaning California. So that's the backdrop. So I didn't mean to kind of put you on the spot there as you're just a member trying to raise your family, a Mormon in California. How did you hear about it?

Randy Bell [01:24:42] Well, very uniquely, because I got a call, I forget from who, saying that the church was very, very opposed to same sex marriage. And this is frankly a low moment of my life that they called me to run the show with Prop 8 in Laguna beach and I say that with nothing but embarrassment at this point.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] What did that entail?

Randy Bell [01:25:18] Well, they said they wanted to keep it off all the church books. So meet in members homes, don't meet at the church. And so we met in a home in Laguna Beach. I was the leader. We were given bundles of yard posts, the little signs you post in your front yard and bumper stickers and signs to, you know, stand on corners with. And I'm in charge, you know, and I frankly wasn't that concerned about the issue. It just didn't resonate with me as being a horribly important issue. But it was the church's issue and I supported the church and so I.

John Dehlin [01:26:05] Do you remember what you felt when, when they told you this this was going to be their position and that you were going to be leading it for your war. You remember what you felt?

Randy Bell [01:26:14] I felt very conflicted, but I'm embarrassed to admit I went along with it. You know, you go along to get along, I guess. And so we organize, excuse me, we organize these things and, And again, to be fair to the Mormon Church, it wasn't just the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church was the one was really as far as I Could see the strongest behind it. But the vote won, and we were out with the signs and the banners and the this and the that.

John Dehlin [01:26:53] Would you, like, knock doors on Saturdays?

Randy Bell [01:26:55] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] So you were organizing campaigns where you guys would canvass, Mormons, would canvass neighborhoods, knock on doors. What would you say when you knocked on.

Randy Bell [01:27:08] Well, we'd say, live in the neighborhood, and I'm Campaigning on Prop 8. How do you feel about it if somebody was very like, yeah, I support Prop 8. Yes, on 8. We'd say, okay, thanks. We're just kind of keeping a tally. But if we found somebody that was a little more indifferent, we would kind of share some reasons why we thought that was a bad idea or so forth.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] Do you remember what. Because the church would have trained you. They would have sent you videos training you on why same sex marriage was a bad idea. Do you remember what those arguments were?

Randy Bell [01:27:39] I think that was traumatic. I think I've repressed some of those memories. I don't remember the videos. I'm not saying they didn't happen. I just don't remember.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] I'm sure it would have been something about children fare better when raised with

Randy Bell [01:27:53] their mother and some of the sociology studies that come out, that kind of thing. It was more the standing on the corners, putting the signs up, you know, at night. Others, the other side, you know, would come through, you know, the neighborhoods, and take all the signs down we go and put them all back up. You know, it was just kind of bantering back and forth, you know, it wasn't a high point in my life. It was embarrassing, but, yeah, it happened. And. Oh, man.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] What are you feeling?

Randy Bell [01:28:28] Well, I'm feeling embarrassment, and I'm skipping ahead to when I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro with Sam Young and one of our buddies, a new friend of mine. His name's Gregory and he's gay. He grew up Mormon. And I had to apologize to him because. And I always do, because I think it's something I'm embarrassed about, I'm ashamed of, and I think it's healing for the LGBT community to hear apologies, and it's healing for me to give them. And that's what I'm feeling is regret and sorrow.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] What would you want to say to an LGBT person who's watching?

Randy Bell [01:29:17] I'm sorry for. I'm sorry I had anything to do with that thing. I'm sorry that I did things that added to. To your stress, to. To your. Whatever you're going through that I. I contributed to a really ugly point in California history. And national history, and I was on the wrong side, and I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:29:46] Thank you.

Randy Bell [01:29:47] And I get it if somebody still holds a grudge, but so far they haven't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:01] Thank you, Randy. So when you. When Prop 8 won, do you remember what you felt? I mean, I imagine you would have been in that mentality. So you would have been happy at the time.

Randy Bell [01:30:14] At the time, I'm ashamed I did. I was on the phone with the stake president and Whitney Clayton. Is that his name?

John Dehlin [01:30:22] Whitney Clayton?

Randy Bell [01:30:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] And he was your stake president at the time?

Randy Bell [01:30:26] No, he was down in Newport Beach. I was in Laguna Beach. But he was upset it didn't win by a bigger margin. I recall his response is like, you know, dude, you're not down here, you know, on the street corners every day. And, you know, but that was his response. And it was an ugly, ugly period.

John Dehlin [01:30:56] And so now let's just assume your position on LGBT people. And same sex marriage would have stayed consistent. Then you get the call that you're involved in the Pulse nightclub shootings, where a shooter goes in and guns down, what, dozens of. Of gay men?

Randy Bell [01:31:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:15] In Orlando.

Randy Bell [01:31:17] Yeah, in Orlando.

John Dehlin [01:31:19] What was it about that experience that transformed you? How did it transform you? Because religious beliefs can be resilient, right?

Randy Bell [01:31:28] They can be, but this was more powerful. You know, the guy that went in, the shooter was a religious fanatic. And I don't remember the case well enough to know the particular side. I don't want to guess, but I do remember that. And. The amount of blood I saw, I've never seen. Like I say, I worked on the World Trade Center. I've seen horrible sites, sites of horrible tragedy. But that one, that in Sandy Hook, where the kids were harmed and killed. I have a hard time talking about it to this day. It's ugly. It's ugly stuff.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] And so how did that. How did that affect your faith? You. You see the horror? Then what connections did you make to your Mormon. Mormon beliefs?

Randy Bell [01:32:31] I wasn't. All I could say is that I walked out the door of the door of the Pulse nightclub. I was just the owner. Just the owner of me.

John Dehlin [01:32:40] And within how many days of the.

Randy Bell [01:32:43] Well, it was fresh enough. I don't know the number of days, but it was fresh enough. And the bullet holes were just. Looked like cannonballs. I mean, they were just. And he told me what went on there. I don't think I could even share it without having a total meltdown. But. I can't explain it other than I just carved that part of my thinking out from the rest of the Mormon Church. And I just said to myself, it's quite clear they've got this one totally wrong, period. And I carved it out, and I went on being Mormon. But on that point, I just knew the church was wrong. I had been wrong, and I admit it.

Carah Burrell [01:33:39] So it sounds like you're saying that it was a direct relation between noticing how religious fanaticism can lead to so many bodies piling up.

Randy Bell [01:33:47] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:33:48] Of people being so bigoted and their beliefs causing them to do horrible things to people in a marginalized community.

Randy Bell [01:33:53] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:33:54] But I think most Mormons that would be listening to that, they can separate. Well, nobody in the Mormon Church would ever take a gun and do something that horrible. But it sounds like in your mind, you said that any kind of bigotry. We don't know what kind of. It might not be in a nightclub, but it could be, you know, the suicide totals. Was that kind of what you're going with?

Randy Bell [01:34:12] Kind of that we were contributing. We were not where we should have been. And just opposed. Flat opposed. Jesus taught explicitly that we should reach out to the marginalized people, not add to their burden. Give me a break. And I was adding to their burden, whether it be LGBT or children or women or the homeless or the incarcerated. I don't want to be part of anything that contributes to anyone's misery, period.

Professional Work on High-Profile Cases

John Dehlin [01:34:48] Talk about how you drew a connection between your involvement in the O.J. simpson case and women.

Randy Bell [01:34:56] Well, you know, the O.J. simpson case was. I was living it while everybody else was watching it, because I was working with. With Mr. Brown, Lou Brown, Nicole Brown Simpson's father, and in that family. I have permission from the family to talk about this a little bit. It wasn't a racial case within the family. In the media it was. But I sat at the kitchen table with that family, and it had nothing to do with race. It had to do with spousal abuse and domestic violence, which is another very ugly topic. And I distinctly remember sitting at the kitchen table, and Everybody was there. Mrs. Brown was there. Mr. Brown. Tanya, Denise. And I realized I was sitting in the empty chair created by Nicole. And it hit me that. It just hit me. And can I just jump in and

John Dehlin [01:35:59] say one of the best documentaries I've ever seen is called OJ Simpson Made in America. Let's add that to the show notes. But it talks about how Nicole had made several phone calls to the police, and even to the point where police had come, she had bruised a bruised face. It was really clear that she was being physically battered by O.J. simpson. And there was kind of this boys club. Forgive me if I'm getting this wrong, but my memory is that there was this kind of boys club where it's like, well, he's too famous and he's a good football player. We like him. And she's just a, you know, a woman. And. And like, if the police maybe had done their job, maybe Nicole would have had a very different fate. Is that the sense you got, or.

Randy Bell [01:36:50] Well, I think that's all accurate. I think it goes. It's that. But it goes a little deeper. If I can explain. When I was at the kitchen table. Denise is a really wonderful, upbeat, fun person. You would like Denise, Nicole's sister. She was the one with dark hair in the trial quite a bit. And she. But she was. And for reasons that I wholly agree with and support her, she was pissed. She was beyond pissed because she loved her sister. And it was just a horrific thing. Forget who did it or just to lose your sister like that, I can't wrap my head around that.

Randy Bell [01:37:41] And she was mad. And then there was this magical moment. I'll never forget it. I was sitting right there, and she just went quiet, and the whole table went quiet. And it's as if a light bulb went on or something illuminated within her psyche. And she says, you know what? I'm going to take all this grief, I'm going to take all my anger, and I'm going to take all of my rage, and I'm going to channel it into helping battered women.

Randy Bell [01:38:17] And she says, I now know all the experts in the field, and my sister is not going to have died in vain. I'm going to make this a talking point where exactly what you just referred to, John, with the police and the good old boys club, we're going to turn the lights on these cockroaches, and we're going to turn the lights on to this bad thinking, this flawed thinking, and make this a discussion point, because there's more light, the more the disinfectant to this societal problem.

Randy Bell [01:38:47] And I saw her transform from being really, really upset to really, really just this inner strength. And it was magical. It was miraculous in my mind. And so in my mind, it was about. It woke me up. Just like each of these cases is kind of waking me up to something. It woke me up to what women were going through. The fact that a guy could beat up, you know, my. That never happened in my family. I've never harmed a woman. That just doesn't happen. But that's not to Say everybody enjoys that. That reality, and. And where it does happen, it needs to be talked about. And that's how I viewed the whole case, really.

John Dehlin [01:39:37] Did you make connections to the status of women in the Mormon Church at that point or. Not so much.

Randy Bell [01:39:43] That came later, but at the time, Denise later asked me to be on her board of directors. And I have been to many meetings where a line of women out the door would be there to thank her for the courage to get out of these lousy relationships. And that started waking me up that, you know, I was born with a lot of privilege, you know, just as a tall white guy in Orange county, and not everybody enjoys that privilege. And maybe I need to pay more attention to what women go through or black people go through or gay people go through, you know, children go through. We haven't gone there yet.

John Dehlin [01:40:25] Go ahead.

Randy Bell [01:40:27] Well, Sandy Hook, you know,

John Dehlin [01:40:34] was that the Amish community?

Randy Bell [01:40:35] No, Sandy Hook was where the shooter went into the elementary school. And I met with the mayor. I met with the chief of police in my consulting role. And the chief of police was.

John Dehlin [01:40:47] Was.

Randy Bell [01:40:47] You could tell he just couldn't talk about it. What he actually saw, it was just. But I learned enough that it's beyond horrific. These. These nutjobs out there talking about conspiracy theories are really harming real families that have been through real tragedy.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] I remember my denying.

Randy Bell [01:41:10] Denying. Yeah, denying that any. Any kids were killed. It's absurd. But I don't know. Each of these cases are waking me up out of this cocoon that I'm in.

John Dehlin [01:41:22] So what. What. What did you learn as it related to your religious beliefs from Sandy Hook?

Randy Bell [01:41:28] Just that children are the most vulnerable. And I think that's the brilliance of Sam Young, that. That there's both covert and overt abuse, and they're both. Both very, very harmful. And while I had good bishops, and I think Sam had good bishops, there are these guys out there that are untrained that cause enormous harm with bringing up inappropriate topics. I mean, my story is kind of. In a way, it's kind of funny in a way, but not really to bring up topics with kids one on one. And some of these guys are perverts. Let's be real. Just the whole sensitivity to the vulnerability of children. And we need to really, as a society and as a church, we need to wake up to some of this stuff and get on board.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] Yeah. I noticed on your list Katrina and kind of natural disasters. Did you know that's a classic kind of viewing suffering en masse. That's something.

Randy Bell [01:42:35] Well, it's like, why could God let this happen? God. God caused this disaster, you know, if you want to look at it that way. And. And I saw thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of houses. Every house represents a family whose lives were blown apart. It was on a scale that you can't even imagine. The media covered just a tiny part of that. They're still recovering today.

John Dehlin [01:43:00] This is New Orleans, right?

Randy Bell [01:43:02] What's that?

John Dehlin [01:43:02] Is this New Orleans?

Randy Bell [01:43:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it went along the whole Gulf Coast. Yeah. So I had a lot of questions there about God and how God could allow a natural disaster like this to harm and kill a lot of people. The ones that got away were lucky, but they had their homes literally blown apart. So these are all kind of waking me up to stuff.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] And then you've got Bikini Atoll and Chernobyl. You got a couple around Institutional and Bhopal about institutional corruption.

Randy Bell [01:43:38] Well, I went out to Bhopal, India, and I went to. I worked on the Bikini Atoll case for seven years. And the other one, I think is Chernobyl. These are all cases of institutional corruption. And I don't believe all institutions are corrupt. But. But my doctorate degree is in sociology, and I can't help but wonder about, you know, institutional corruption. And I saw. I saw a lot of that in those three cases. So I'm. Wait. It's like my brain. I'm in the bubble, but my brain is kind of popping off like popcorn with these cases, one after another, waking me up to all these. All these kind of issues.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:44:18] Yeah.

The Beginning of a Faith Crisis and Divorce

John Dehlin [01:44:20] So what year do you kind of put your faith crisis as. As kind of beginning? Do you have a year for it?

Randy Bell [01:44:27] I have a specific day for it.

John Dehlin [01:44:29] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:44:31] It's in my journal, but it's about five years ago.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] And prior to that. Okay, so let's say five years ago. Give us the status. Are you still married five years ago to your first spouse?

Randy Bell [01:44:42] No.

John Dehlin [01:44:42] Do you want to talk about your kids or first marriage before you?

Randy Bell [01:44:45] Yeah. I just want to say my kids are awesome. I have four kids. They're all adults. They're beautiful kids, and I'm very proud of each of them. Some are in the church, some are not. And I support them both.

John Dehlin [01:44:56] Okay. Was divorce in the Mormon Church hard?

Randy Bell [01:45:00] It was painfully hard. It was her decision. There had been no abuse, no addiction?

John Dehlin [01:45:08] No.

Randy Bell [01:45:09] What are the three A's? Abuse, addiction, adultery? I don't know. There was none of that. But I was sitting in sacrament meeting, and it just wasn't cutting me. It was. I was in so much emotional pain. Was this post divorce? This was during the divorce.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:45:27] And I had had lunch with Denise Brown once.

John Dehlin [01:45:31] Let me ask you a question. Did you feel like Mormonism prepared you for a healthy marriage?

Randy Bell [01:45:37] No, not. Not in the least.

John Dehlin [01:45:39] Why not?

Randy Bell [01:45:40] Well, I'll compare and contrast it. There was no real discussion about, you know, how many kids are you going to have, what? You know, just the fundamentals. And I can't help but, you know, kind of compare that to a Christian church. I'm aware of where they're very proud of the fact that people go through kind of a premarital classes, and they're very proud of the fact that half of them break off their engagement because they're not ready to get married. But getting back to Mormonism, no, I didn't feel like I was prepared at all. I didn't know what I was doing. And

John Dehlin [01:46:13] did you feel like being an orthodox, devout Mormon was healthy for your marriage or unhealthy or neutral to your developing family and your developing relationship?

Randy Bell [01:46:28] I think it's a mixed bag. I think in some ways it's healthy because you had kind of a common interest and a common place to go on Sundays and, you know, support for one another with callings and the kids are going to various activities in other ways. I don't know that it was particularly helpful. It was a mixed bag for me. Just speaking for myself, what were the

John Dehlin [01:46:49] teachings and what was the kind of stigma around divorce that you would have contemplated as the prospects of divorce were starting to emerge?

Randy Bell [01:47:01] Well, they had emerged, and I'll explain to you. I was in the sacrament meeting is the best way to explain it. And I was in deep emotional pain. And I remember I sat there because I'd had lunch with Denise Brown with the O.J. case, and Denise said something I'll never forget. She says, you know, she calls me Randall. She said, randall, you got to understand something. When a guy hits a woman, it leaves a bruise for two weeks, and it heals. And it hurts, but it heals. Emotional abuse may not ever heal. It may go on for months, years, or never heal. And I was feeling that through the divorce.

Randy Bell [01:47:47] And I was sitting there in the middle of sacrament meeting, and I just was in deep emotional hurting. And I thought. This thought came to me, and I think it was a Jesus thing where some lesson related to Jesus, but it was like, if you find somebody less fortunate than yourself and help them out, it helps relieve your pain. And I thought, well, the sacrament meeting isn't cutting it. I literally got up. I wasn't inappropriate or anything, but I went out into the foyer and I went down the street in Laguna beach to the homeless shelter, walked in and found the executive director. And I said, hey, I just finished my PhD.

Randy Bell [01:48:30] I'd like to teach life skills to the homeless, like goal setting, time management, negotiation skills, just like we talk about them in business. And she thought it was a great idea. And I did that. And that was a profound lesson for me in terms of kind of healing from that, the divorce, finding, Finding people that were less fortunate and trying to help them out a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:49:01] And for those who have never been Mormon, what are the church's teachings about marriage and eternal marriage? And then what does an orthodox Mormon feel when their marriage falls apart?

Randy Bell [01:49:15] Well, you know, in Mormonism, it's not just, you know, marriage is not till death do you part. It's marriage for eternity. And the idea is that you're married in the temple, you're sealed together in the temple, and that your family is together forever, and your children are sealed. Your children are sealed to you, and there's an unbreakable bond. And without the temple marriage and the temple sealing, then, you know, who knows what happens? You know, it's a train wreck. I guess.

John Dehlin [01:49:48] You're not with your children and your family in heaven.

Randy Bell [01:49:52] The best way to sum it up is, you know, families can be together forever. And so you're taught this, and you think you have that forever family, and then your spouse decides to file for divorce, and then all of that blows up. And your kids, who you love dearly, are like, dad, are we going to be together as a family forever? And that's heartbreaking. I mean, that just. That sucks. I mean, that's. What do you do with that? It's rough.

John Dehlin [01:50:20] Yeah, yeah. Tell your kids sorry, all your Mormon friends have forever families, but you don't.

Randy Bell [01:50:28] I took a different tact. I said, yeah, of course we're still together forever. I mean, it's absurd that we wouldn't be.

John Dehlin [01:50:34] You went off script.

Randy Bell [01:50:35] I went off script quite easily. I don't know. I just did.

John Dehlin [01:50:41] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:50:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] But was that, would it be fair to call that devastating to have your eternal marriage break up? I mean, it sounds like maybe you weren't super happy in your relationship.

Randy Bell [01:50:52] Well, I, I was more concerned about the kids. You know, with me, my feelings didn't matter much. I, I, it was painful for me to see the trauma to my kids.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:51:03] That was, for me, the roughest part of the whole deal.

John Dehlin [01:51:08] And how long were you single after divorce in the Mormon Church? Because I'VE heard that one of the most brutal dates to be in as a Mormon is as a divorced single person in the church. Or it's just as a never married single. Because the church is just family space. Families, parenting, parenting, parenting. Kids, kids, kids.

Randy Bell [01:51:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:29] So if you're single, you just feel like a loser, I've heard.

Randy Bell [01:51:33] Well, I felt like a loser for sure. It's horribly awkward. The bishop was calling my kids, saying, why hasn't your dad come see me? Like, why don't you call me and ask me why? It's because he has no training. There's really nothing I seen you in. What me to come in and talk to him because I had was going through a divorce.

John Dehlin [01:51:57] Oh.

Randy Bell [01:51:58] I, I didn't see the point in talking to him. I not. No disrespect to the guy, he's a great guy, but he has no training in any of this. And you know, I was meeting with people who had training, you know, in the topic. So.

John Dehlin [01:52:16] Did you feel shame?

Randy Bell [01:52:18] Well, shame is something that. Who you are. Guilt is something I did wrong. I'd done nothing wrong. A shame. Yes. I felt, I felt shame because that's how you feel in this religious environment where more where marriage is given this, this position, if you will. So it was a, it was a mess. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:43] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:52:44] Yeah, it was a mess.

John Dehlin [01:52:46] So how many years between your divorce and that faith crisis beginning?

Randy Bell [01:52:51] Well, I actually, the sequence goes. I got divorced. I waited in California six months. I waited to whatever the judge. And then I contacted my old byu, a girl I dated at byu who she was too cool for me back in the day, but she decided to take another look at me and I got remarried reasonably quickly.

John Dehlin [01:53:21] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:53:23] You know, happily with. With her. So. But my heart goes out to those guys that do get divorced and, you know, didn't have that.

John Dehlin [01:53:33] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:53:34] Scenario.

John Dehlin [01:53:34] Okay, so you weren't single in the church for a long time?

Randy Bell [01:53:37] No.

John Dehlin [01:53:37] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:53:38] No.

John Dehlin [01:53:38] Okay. All right, we'll take us to your. The day of your faith crisis.

Discovering Joseph Smith's Polygamy and Church History

Randy Bell [01:53:44] Well, this is the day.

John Dehlin [01:53:45] What year again? It's five years ago, so 2016. 17.

Randy Bell [01:53:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] Which one?

Randy Bell [01:53:53] I honestly don't remember.

John Dehlin [01:53:55] All right.

Randy Bell [01:53:55] It's about five years ago.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:53:57] And I was true believing Mormon. I sitting at my house on the kitchen, You know, granite counter thing and on my laptop. And I love the church. I have, I'm curious, I'm naturally very curious. So I'm kind of browsing around different things. I decided to go, you know, what's new with the church? And, and I'm browsing Around and up pops this thing that says Nauvoo and polygamy. And I look at the URL and it says lds.org and I'm reading it, and it's saying that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. And I was like, what the heck? My head exploded. And I read and I come up with this word that I'd never seen before called polyandry. And polyandry means that one guy's. How's it work? I don't know. It's so messed up.

John Dehlin [01:54:54] It's where a woman would be married to multiple men. So.

Randy Bell [01:54:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:58] So basically, a woman would be married to some man in Nauvoo. Her husband.

Randy Bell [01:55:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] And then Joseph Smith would proposition her.

Randy Bell [01:55:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:06] Sometimes while the husband was sent on a mission or sent away. And then Joseph Smith would literally marry a woman.

Randy Bell [01:55:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:13] Who is already married.

Randy Bell [01:55:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:14] That's polyandry. Multiple men.

Randy Bell [01:55:18] Multiple men. One single woman. Yeah. And. And then, as if that wasn't weird enough, I kept reading and I came across that infamous statement that Joseph Smith married women or girls as young as a few months. Few months short. They're short of their 15th birthday.

John Dehlin [01:55:36] A few months shy. 15th birthday. And that was the way the church could say he married 14 year olds without saying he married 14 year olds.

Randy Bell [01:55:44] Exactly. Exactly. And this is. You know, I'm embarrassed to say a lot of the things I'm saying today, but I was embarrassed to say I didn't believe it. I had had dinner once with Todd Compton, who wrote the book on sacred loneliness, who documented all this. And I thought Todd was a really nice guy and very studious.

Randy Bell [01:56:05] But Todd Compton, I didn't believe him. I just thought he was some academic that was finding some weird old journals that were messed up because Joseph Smith said he was not a polygamist. And so in my shock of what I was reading right in front of me, I literally turned off my laptop. I powered it down. I didn't just go to sleep, I went. Powered it down. I unplugged it. I waited 15 seconds, and then I waited another 15 seconds, then I plugged it back in, open up the laptop, reboot, go straight to lds.org, go straight to that essay. And there it was. And in an instant, I'm out of the church.

Randy Bell [01:56:51] That's not. The thing that kept resonating in my head was, those are not my values. I must have heard that a million times ringing through my head. Those are not my values. And they may be someone else's values or someone else might condone that but they're not my values. And again I don't say that hopefully sounding like self righteous or Mother Teresa, but that's crazy.

Randy Bell [01:57:21] And then I didn't say anything to anybody about it that day. I was just in utter shock. You could feel the amygdala and the adrenaline and all the signs. A classic shock. I go to bed that night, I wake up and it dawned on me. Wait a minute. Not only that, but this thing with Fanny Alger happened in 1833.

John Dehlin [01:57:42] Explain to our non Mormon viewers who Fanny Alger is, what happened. Well, and what was shocking about it?

Randy Bell [01:57:50] Fanny Alger was a young girl living in the Smith home. Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith and Emma's

John Dehlin [01:57:57] home island in the early 1830s.

Randy Bell [01:57:59] Right?

John Dehlin [01:57:59] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:58:00] And who. You're the, you're the script, you're the historian. But he was having an affair with her in the barn. And was it Oliver Cowry?

John Dehlin [01:58:10] Oliver Cowdery who was co president.

Randy Bell [01:58:12] We just.

John Dehlin [01:58:12] Karen and I just did a TikTok about this. Right, Carrie?

Randy Bell [01:58:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:16] Oliver Cowdery who was co president of the church at the time.

Randy Bell [01:58:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] Somehow discovers that Joseph Smith was in an adulterous affair with Fanny Algeria and he calls him on it. And Joseph Smith's reaction was excommunicate him. Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:58:31] How does that go? So I was just in shock. And the next day I realized that from Fanny Alger in 1833. I did the math. The gospel topic essays came out in 2014. I found out them later because they didn't publicize them. They were kind of top secret, hidden on the website.

Randy Bell [01:58:53] And that's 181 years where not a single general conference talk, not a single church magazine ever mentioned this. I went on a mission going door to door saying Joseph Smith was faithful to his one wife Emma. And yet for 181 years these church leaders are concealing this reality.

Randy Bell [01:59:21] And then I was so desperate, I was going through all the classic, you know, shock and denial. I went to Fairmormon. I saw. I didn't even really know who Fair Mormon was, but I was so desperate to find some kind of explanation for this that made sense.

Randy Bell [01:59:39] I read their explanation and my head doubly exploded because it was just such a ridiculous explanation. I don't remember what it was, but it was just silly. It was adolescent explanations to justify Joseph's

Carah Burrell [01:59:54] affair with Fanny and just the polygamy

Randy Bell [01:59:55] in general, the whole enchilada, but mainly Joseph Smith's polygamy and the fact I found that quote where Joseph Smith going back to My friend Laurie in high school, that quote I looked up that said what a thing it is for a man to be accused of having seven wives when I can only find one. That's what propelled me for decades, was that frankly untruth spoken by Joseph Smith that carried on for decades and I was out in an instant. Some people, it builds up. It builds up. It builds up for me. I was in the church, happy. I was not looking for any reason to leave. I was content Despite Prop 8, despite all the stuff. But that just. I'm out.

Carah Burrell [02:00:43] Can I ask a follow up question? Because a lot of people will hear that and think to themselves, okay, so it's not your values, but God's ways are higher than your ways. There's going to be things that you don't understand. Why can't you just, you know, wrestle with the Lord, ask for answers and maybe answers will come in the next life, but you still need to remain faithful, hold to the iron rod. Why were you not able to continue on?

John Dehlin [02:01:03] Kind of like put those issues on the shelf, metaphorically. Yeah, yeah.

Randy Bell [02:01:07] Maybe someone else can do it. I can't do it. That, that is, that's not a question to Abby answered later. That's an answer we have today. That's answered today. And those are not values I can defend. I can't defend that. It's absurd.

Carah Burrell [02:01:29] Yeah. And then you think about all of the ramifications of Joseph's polygamy on the women and subsequent prophets in the way that they practice polygamy. And the more you learn, the more you realize that it wasn't just a one time mess up of a prophet, that there are real women's and men's lives and children's lives.

Randy Bell [02:01:44] Yeah. Yeah. I started listening to Lindsay Hanson Parks was a year of polygamy. I couldn't. It was just too much. It was so horrific. I probably should get back on the saddle and listen to that whole thing. But it was just horrible. How do you defend that? You can't defend that.

Carah Burrell [02:02:07] Those are where their heart wrenching stories were. And when you were mentioning the stories about in England of women being converted and going over. That's your polygamy is where I first learned those stories about women who were converted by missionaries who, that they themselves would have 10 wives back home or whatever while saying we don't practice polygamy, lying through their teeth to try to get more women saving usually the more attractive ones for themselves, you know, and some women getting all the way out to Salt Lake City before even knowing that they were basically sex trafficked and now they have no way to get home and they're a polygamous wife for life now.

Carah Burrell [02:02:37] Like it's those real life stories where it's not just Joseph messed up and there, there's a horrible, like cataclysmic. I mean, if you study natural disasters and other disasters in the world, like the way polygamy affected Mormonism and people who are just trying to follow Jesus Christ, that's a disaster on Mormonism. Like there are ripple effects today in all the. The polygamous communities. There's no denying that.

Randy Bell [02:03:01] You know, couldn't agree with you more. You know, I studied disasters as a career and I have a pretty high threshold for trauma. I don't say it's unlimited. I gotta take breaks. But I've seen some real train wrecks. That was one that I couldn't see any way to put back together. No way. But that's my story. That's me. I can't speak for anyone else but those, again, that's just not my values.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] So were you say something, Carah?

Carah Burrell [02:03:35] No, but I will just say I love that. I love that you just put it down as simply as those are not my values. And a lot of people, myself included, went through a very quick faith crisis where something just told me it was wrong. And there's no fitting everything back in the box again. And anyone who, if statutory rape is your value, please don't talk to me ever again on record. That's not one of my values for sure. Like, I can't. I will never be okay with a prophet, somebody saying they speak for God and that's the value that they want to move forward with the church. I love the way that you worded that.

Randy Bell [02:04:06] Thanks. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] So I'm going to both simultaneously push back on you a tiny bit about one thing you said earlier and play devil's advocate.

Randy Bell [02:04:16] Sure, bring it up.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] I'm finessing both the critical and apologetic view simultaneously. Okay. So you talked about Heaven's Gate and Colts. I think you also have on your list being involved in Charles Manson.

Randy Bell [02:04:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:29] Satan. Oh, the La Palazza Mansion.

Randy Bell [02:04:33] Oh, that was a devil worship case in Vegas.

Carah Burrell [02:04:35] Okay.

Randy Bell [02:04:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] So, I mean, you've seen the darkest sides of cults, and I'm going to grant you that. And you don't like people calling the Mormon church a cult. And we on Mormon stories try not to ever do that either. So we're kind of with you on that. And I'm going to just highlight the fact that one of the things we learned from Stephen Hassan's book is that, you know, the bite model, that what Colts do is they control behavior in excessive ways, but they also, that's the b. The eye is they control information from their members so that their members can't have thoughts. Like, this church isn't true. My, my founding prophet was a sexual predator, you know, and so they keep the information from their members so that they can control their thoughts. That's the I and the T of Stephen Hassan's bite model.

Randy Bell [02:05:27] Right.

John Dehlin [02:05:28] We've had Stephen Hasson on Mormon stories before. We'll reference that in the show notes and his book as well in the show notes. But here's, here's my pushback on that. So what a, what an apologist, what a Mormon apologist would say to you is, Randy, that's on you. The fact that you didn't know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, that's on you like. And so now I'm going to go through all the different ways you could have known that as an apologist. I'm going to take the road of an apologist. And I want you to defend yourself as to why you didn't get the information that I, as Mormon apologist, would say you should have had access to.

John Dehlin [02:06:07] So I'm going to begin, okay. Back in ucla, your own, your own alma mater, Fawn Brody, she wrote that book in 1945. It says everything, everything in the CES letter. 80% of it is there in Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History. The polygamy, the Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon, the anachronisms, the Kirtland bank scandal, every. The Masonic lodge stuff in the temple ceremony, all of that was in Fawn Brody's no man Knows My History. And, and she was faculty at ucla, your alma mater. So why didn't you learn all that? And we're going to go through each one. Why didn't you learn all that through Fawn Brody's no man Knows My History? You had decades to pick up that book and read it. Great.

Randy Bell [02:06:49] Valid question. And 2020 site is so clear, isn't it? My response to that is, had you

John Dehlin [02:06:58] ever heard of that book growing up?

Randy Bell [02:06:59] Sure. And I, like I say I knew that there were allegations of Joseph Smith's polygamy back in high school. It's just that I had been, for lack of a better word, programmed to believe it was all anti Mormon lies. And I remember distinctly with Fawn Brody's book, the Comeback, the church has a very witty way of having These little snappy things where somebody got up and said, well, no man knows your history and especially you, or something like that. It was a little comeback saying that Fawn Brody was making up stuff. And you get this idea in the church that the church has all these enemies lurking around and they're dark and, you know, dark people that you stay away from in terms of their thinking.

Randy Bell [02:07:43] So looking back, I can just say I feel very, very gullible. It's funny, you know, I got a big group of friends from BYU that moved back to Southern California, and every year we get together for Christmas dinners. And every year it seemed like somebody else was dropping out of the church. Guess who was the last one to drop out of the church? It was me. You know, I just.

Randy Bell [02:08:12] I have this weakness, apparently, and once I kind of anchor to something, I hold onto it. And that's something I'm very aware of now.

John Dehlin [02:08:20] So how did the church teach you to view. No man knows my history.

Randy Bell [02:08:25] Anti Mormon. Garbage. Junk. Don't waste your time with it.

John Dehlin [02:08:30] You mentioned knowing about the Tanners relatively early on. The Tanners started in the early 1960s. You would have had all the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s. Utah Lighthouse Ministry has been going for a long time. We've had Sandra Tanner on our show. You've had almost a half century to pick up some of Sandra Tanner or Gerald Tanner's work. What happened?

Randy Bell [02:08:53] I was on autopilot. I was in the church. I was content. I was happy. There was no real.

John Dehlin [02:08:59] What have you been taught about the Tanners?

Randy Bell [02:09:01] Oh, I've been taught the Tanners were just horrible people that were just santanic and evil and liars and deceivers and. Pick an adjective, pick a. Pick a mean name and you can call it at the Tanners. I'd heard it all.

John Dehlin [02:09:18] Okay, so all through the 70s and 80s and 90s, Sunstone was publishing stuff. Dialogue was publishing stuff like journal Mormon history. You could have learned. You could have learned accurate Mormon history through Sunstone dialogue and that sort of thing. Why didn't you learn it through that?

Randy Bell [02:09:34] I just. It didn't resonate with me. Sunstone. I went to one conference. A friend invited me to go to a Sunstone conference. I went. I just. I didn't get it. I was. I was. I would admit that I was very, very gullible and very, very content where I was. My career was going great.

Randy Bell [02:09:56] My kids were doing great. Those were my focus. And I thought I had heard all the anti Mormon stuff on my mission from the Church of England. Vicars and people there. And I thought that that was kind of a completed task and I was on autopilot. I wasn't thinking critically, which is so embarrassing because that's what I do in my professional life, is think critically.

Randy Bell [02:10:19] My whole doctoral program was thinking critically in epistemologies and hermeneutics and phenomenology and the scientific method and empirical evidence. So I was blasting off to the stratosphere in my professional life, but in my personal life I was just, frankly, I was a lazy learner. I was just a lazy learner. And I plead guilty. Guilty as charged.

John Dehlin [02:10:43] I don't think you were lazy. I think you were Mormon, because I think this is how this is. I call it the bubble, but the church, I don't even think it's intentional on the church's part to deceive, but the church carefully grooms us from infancy to stay away from non approved sources of information.

Randy Bell [02:11:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:07] And in that sense we, I call it the bubble, but. But we are carefully groomed. And this is where the church. I'll use the term cultish. This is where the Mormon Church strays into the air of being cultish because members are carefully, instead of like, hey, learn the truth, we'll teach you the truth, read the hardest criticisms and then you can develop a stronger faith. No, Mormonism is. Stay away from anything that isn't approved literature. And that way you can get to into your 50s or 60s and never know that the founder of your own religion had 30 to 40 wives. And you don't know that post Internet. Because like I was gonna go on and say, all right, well, blogs and podcasts start emerging in 2004, 2005. Why didn't you learn it through blogs and podcasts? And your answer would be, I couldn't

Randy Bell [02:11:58] ever imagine the church withholding or deceiving or not being forthright, as I was taught since I was a little pollywog, is be honest, don't be a jerk, tell the truth, even if it's embarrassing, repent. And I just naturally assumed that the church was living by those same standards. And all of that came along, all the Internet and all this, and I was just kind of anchored to those original experiences, even though they were obsolete, quite obviously. And I look back at it now and you laugh or you cry, you know, but it wasn't smart.

John Dehlin [02:12:43] So when the gospel topics essays come out in 2013, 2014, why didn't you learn then?

Randy Bell [02:12:48] Well, they weren't advertised, you know, I didn't know. I don't know anybody that knew about them. I came across them quite accidentally. I wasn't looking for a reason to leave the church. These excuses and this nonsense about why people leave the church. I just got to call bs. I wasn't looking to leave. I was completely happy as a member. I took great pride in the fact that there was an unbroken chain of missionary service. Right. You know, father to son and the Bell family right back to Nauvoo. You know, I was happy being part of that legacy. I liked defending the church. I like a good debate, you know. You know, I'm not afraid of a brawl, intellectual or anything else, but. But, boy, I. I was. What can I say?

John Dehlin [02:13:35] No, the church leaders are on record. Like, you keep. You keep talking as though it's your own oversight. The church leaders, like Elder Snow, Elder Marlon Jensen, are on record admitting that they put. They. They produce those essays. To have plausible deniability, they had to put them on the Internet, but they intentionally made sure that members would not learn about them, that they would only be made available on a need to know basis. Right. And that they were intentionally hid from not just members, but from leaders, even after they were published. And they're on record admitting that.

Randy Bell [02:14:12] Right.

John Dehlin [02:14:12] So it's not on you, Randy.

Randy Bell [02:14:14] Well, thanks for reminding me of that. Because. Because, you know, you can beat yourself up over this stuff.

John Dehlin [02:14:21] And once the excommunication started happening in 2013, 14, and 15, do you even remember hearing about all the excommunications of critics and of feminists and intellectuals once all this excommunication started happening? Did that even. Did you even find out about it?

Randy Bell [02:14:37] No, I heard about it, but I didn't pay much attention to it. My attention was on. I'm having a tough thing at marriage, and I love my kids with all my heart. I was putting my energy frankly, where it should have been as a dad, you know, paying attention to my kids. But I heard about that stuff, but it was just. I didn't spend any time with it, you know, regrettably.

John Dehlin [02:15:04] Okay. All right. Yeah, well, don't beat yourself up.

Randy Bell [02:15:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:09] So did you. Did this polygamy, polyandry thing send you down the rabbit hole? Did you start studying all the other truth claims issues, too, and talk about that experience of the rap? You laughed, so I'm assuming that's a yes. And do you want to, you know, I had you at the beginning, talk about all the things you were taught that were not true in terms of Mormon history and truth claims? Do you want to talk about all the things you. I Like to have our. Our interviewees take time to describe in detail everything they learned.

Randy Bell [02:15:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:43] When they went down the rabbit hole about the factual church history and the problems that the church's truth claims.

Randy Bell [02:15:49] Yeah, well, I was out with that one, but then I mentioned. I went to Fairmormon and I was shocked at how many other issues there were.

John Dehlin [02:15:57] Which ones?

Randy Bell [02:15:58] Well, let's start with the peep stone and a hat.

Carah Burrell [02:16:01] What about it?

Randy Bell [02:16:02] Well, I had been taught when I was young that Joseph Smith had a little set of gold plates and he was translating that into English to create the Book of Mormon. And I was shocked to find out that what he actually did was put a stone he found in a well in a hat and put his head into the hat. And the gold plates were never in the room. According to any witness, the gold plates were not even there. And that took me back into the realm of Joseph Smith and magical thinking. And. And the fact that he had a criminal record from using this peep stone to con farmers and others for treasure digging, I didn't know about. I had heard that stuff, but that was all anti Mormon lies. And then I'm reading the church.

John Dehlin [02:16:50] So what you're kind of saying is that Sandra Tanner and Fawn Brody and Gerald Tanner were actually telling the truth, even though you had been conditioned to believe they were liars.

Randy Bell [02:17:01] Well, that. And I also called my old friend up, Lori, from high school. Remember her? I called her up and I hadn't talked to her in years. And I said, laurie, do you remember that day you brought me that stuff in high school? And she goes, yeah, I do remember that. And I said, I apologize.

John Dehlin [02:17:21] Why are you getting emotional?

Randy Bell [02:17:22] Well, because Lori's a kind person. She was looking out for my own interests. Her pastor was telling the truth. Lori was telling the truth. And they made an effort to get through to me. And I felt bad for how I had shut her down on that.

Randy Bell [02:17:40] And I should feel bad because it was the wrong thing to do. And so I had to. And I went to Sandra Tanner and I pulled up and went in and there she was. And I apologized to her. She didn't know who I was or what I was doing there, apologizing, but I had all these awful feelings towards her and she was telling the truth all along. And then I sat down and talked to her. She's the sweetest, kindest person. And I listen to people carefully now.

Randy Bell [02:18:11] And I didn't detect a lie she ever told. We've been together on many occasions. I've never detected a lie. You've ever told Carah I just met, but so far, so good, you know, but my point is, is that my BS meter is on. It's on.

Randy Bell [02:18:27] I'm never gonna be duped, at least through what I've been through before, ever again. And the people I'm hanging out with now, the John Dehlins, the Sandra Tanner rfm, Bill Real, Jonathan Streeter's brilliant Sam. This crew, I'm watching for the lies, and I'm not seeing them. I'm really not. And I would say so if I saw it. I'm just not seeing it.

Book of Mormon DNA, Book of Abraham, and Other Issues

John Dehlin [02:18:58] Okay, so treasure digging. Peep stones.

Randy Bell [02:19:01] Yeah. Well, the treasure digging, the Book of Mormon DNA. I heard about that.

John Dehlin [02:19:06] What about it?

Randy Bell [02:19:07] Well, the Book of Mormon talks about populations of millions of people. And had that been historically true, we would find DNA that goes back to Israel, where Lehi comes from. And there's a bishop out of Australia, I think you've interviewed him.

John Dehlin [02:19:22] Simon Southerton.

Randy Bell [02:19:23] Yeah, terrific interviews. Who found what, who didn't find any, you know, Israeli. Yeah, Israeli DNA. And the folks here in ancient modern America, their ancestry, Native Americans trace their

John Dehlin [02:19:40] genetic lineage back to Asia through the Bering Straits.

Randy Bell [02:19:45] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [02:19:46] By the way, tens of thousands of years, at least 10,000 years prior to the Book of Mormon times, which. Which not only predates the Book of Mormon times, it predates the time that Adam and Eve would have been alive if. If they had actually existed. And so the genetic evidence just kind of destroys the validity of the Book of Mormon period.

Randy Bell [02:20:11] And to really come clean about dumb things I've done in my life, well, I didn't set out to, but I've been to Mesoamerica, and I've been to Aztec, Mayan and Inca civilizations. And my consulting agreements, to this day, I'm allowed to take my kids with me because I travel a lot and I take a family member with me as I travel. And I'd taken my kids to places, you know, all the pyramids and so forth in Machu Picchu. And I always thought it was all Book of Mormon lands, you know, just, you know, and I was talking to my kids, my sons, to go on missions because, you know, look at the cement box.

Randy Bell [02:20:52] And that's where Joseph Smith found the gold plates. So I'm kind of leaning on my kids, you know, on this stuff. Had I slowed down a little bit, done a little bit of research, I wouldn't have made those mistakes. Mistakes.

Randy Bell [02:21:04] And I made them. And I had made a lot of apologies to my own kids because I would never have talked my kids into doing something I knew was amiss.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] Sure. You want to talk about Book of Abraham real quick?

Randy Bell [02:21:21] Well, yeah, that one's real interesting because back in Fullerton, there was a young bishop and the guy. We were buddies. We used to play tennis together and went parachuting together. This guy was a really good, fun guy to hang out with. And he was 27 or so, and he became a bishop and he married a returned missionary. I mean, this guy was gung ho, really a dynamic couple. And one day as a bishop, he drops out of the church. And I didn't know what was going on. And I called him and talked to him. He explained this whole Book of Abraham thing to me, and I honestly didn't get what he was talking about.

Randy Bell [02:21:57] And I think the guy's just a great guy. I still do to this day. But I didn't get it. I don't know why I didn't get it. It's a pretty simple thing that Joseph Smith got these papyrus and purported to translate them into the Book of Abraham from Egyptian. From Egyptian papyrus.

Randy Bell [02:22:16] And yet the Resetta Stone cracked the code. And now we can translate Egyptian, which we couldn't do in the 1800s when Joseph Smith purportedly did this. And now we know that the papyrus had nothing to do with Abraham at any level.

Randy Bell [02:22:29] And yet there are these apologists that still go on that they do. So there was. That. There was the temple ceremony I was told had been lifted or plagiarized from the Masonic Temple ceremony. I dismissed that as anti Mormon lies. There's now a church essay.

John Dehlin [02:22:47] Turns out to be true.

Randy Bell [02:22:48] Well, the church essay, I told Sandra Tanner, you don't need anti Mormon literature. Just read the church essays. I mean, really. And then the social issues, the issues with the kids, the issue with the treatment of women. The issues.

John Dehlin [02:23:01] What do you mean, with kids?

Randy Bell [02:23:03] Well, with the worthiness interviews, where some. Some kids luck out and get good bishops. I want to. I did, you know, but some kids get bad bishops who are flat out pedophiles. There's no criminal background checks or who get inappropriate discussions about, you know, necking, petting, masturbation, on and on and on, which should be. If it's a discussion between parents and their kids. And then the. So the treatment of kids, that's called overt abuse or covert abuse. And then the LGBT community.

John Dehlin [02:23:50] So that was a shout out to Sam Young and the Protect LDS Children Initiative. Right.

Randy Bell [02:23:55] Sam's brilliant. Sam hit the nail on the head because we haven't even gotten into this, but I've done, I did 10, 15 years of research in post traumatic thriving and wrote a book on the topic. And Sam figured that out way before I did that. Unresolved child trauma is the number one plague on humanity today. The reason why there's so much alcohol abuse and drug abuse and incarceration is because kids are being abused covertly or overtly and they bottle it up inside and it manifests in all kinds of self harm or self medication. And if we can address and hands off the kids and let kids just grow up and be kids, it cures innumerable, innumerable social ills as a consequence of just doing that.

John Dehlin [02:24:50] Yeah, okay. And you were going to talk about women?

Randy Bell [02:24:55] Well, you know, I'm not a woman, but I do my best to try and see in business, I notice we come to the best decisions when there's a diverse group racially, gender wise and everything else. I think that's where we get the best decisions coming out of society. And you know, I can't imagine, you know, I grew up in a church where women weren't even allowed to give prayers in general conference or prayers in sacrament meeting. I mean there's been a little bit of progress, but in terms of leadership roles, you know, the Christian community is ordaining women. The Mormon church still won't do that.

John Dehlin [02:25:44] Yeah, okay, so that was your rabbit hole that it took you down. Now what's it like emotionally, psychologically, socially, job wise, parent wise to have given 50, 60 years of your life to the church, to have sacrifice to paid all that tithing, to have raised your kids in the church. I'm guessing all your kids are still believing at this point that you have your faith crisis. Like, you know, and then you, you are a professional, sort of like critical thinker. And then you say, wow, like I missed this. Like all these other people figured it out way before me. What was the emotional, psychological, parental, you know, culmination of learning that for you the church wasn't what you thought? What was that like? Was it devastating? Was it awesome? Was it fun? Was it scary?

The Unraveling of Faith and Finding Support

Randy Bell [02:26:47] It was, it was all the above. I checked D all of the above on that. The. I called RFM up because RFM is as you know, an attorney. And he went to Texas A and M at Austin or Texas at. Whoops, I shouldn't have said A and M. He's going to hit me for that. UT yeah. University of Texas at Austin, which is not small potatoes. He's a very bright guy. And so we were kind of in the same Boat with. Why is it that professionally you're an attorney? I'm a PhD and economist. And we rise through the heights of our careers, but in our personal lives, we're still in the sixth grade.

Randy Bell [02:27:24] You know, RFM has this sixth grade metaphor, which I absolutely love. And on one hand, you know, my head's swirling around. And you had an interview with Elder Ballard's granddaughter. She said the word untangle in her interview and I started binging.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] That was Laura Andreessen Roper for the show Notes. Yeah, yeah.

Randy Bell [02:27:46] And that word untangle really resonated. And that's kind of what I felt like I was doing because I didn't want to throw out everything related to Mormonism for a lot of reasons, because I learned a lot of good things. But it's. Excuse me. It's a lot of work to untangle that. It's like separating the cancerous tissue from the healthy tissue. And it's been like a five year progress because I don't know if you recall, but you asked me to come on Mormon Stories about five years ago and here it is five years later and I'm kind of there and I feel like I've hustled. I mean, I've been working at it. I've been binge listening to Bill Real and Jonathan Streeter and you and reading, reading, reading more books than I've ever read in my whole life to try and figure this stuff out.

John Dehlin [02:28:37] Yeah. Really, really quickly. In your outline, you mentioned how the Fenders, Jerry Jewell, the Browns.

Randy Bell [02:28:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:48] How they played roles in your shelf breaking. I don't think you have maybe touched on that. Do you want to just talk about how your. Some of your non LDs, close friends.

Randy Bell [02:28:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:58] Played a role or is that. Or have you already addressed that?

Randy Bell [02:29:00] No, I haven't. I haven't think I've even mentioned. Well, I've mentioned the Browns a little bit. Mrs. Brown used to have a saying that I listen to understand, not to judge. So that really hit me between the eyes in terms of.

Randy Bell [02:29:19] That's a. And she was the kind of person everyone loved to be around because she was not judgmental. And I will admit as a Mormon, I was very judgmental. I was very harsh in my judgments. And so that's something I really learned from Mrs. Brown. And then coincidentally, one of the really nice aspects of when the timing of my faith crisis came is I was smack in the middle of writing a book with Mrs. Leo Fender, Phyllis Fender, and Mrs. Fender is she sadly passed away. But she was a very devout Christian. But More than that, she was. And Christian's a loaded word, and I'm not.

Randy Bell [02:30:00] I get that. I mean, you know, but she was. You will never find a more diverse group of people than in the music industry. And I was kind of her chauffeur as we wrote the book. We were invited back. She was invited. I was her chauffeur backstage to all kinds of country and rock shows everywhere, all over the place. And she was so.

Randy Bell [02:30:26] She radiated love in a very genuine way. And it didn't matter if a rock star came up with a tattoo of a tarantula on his face. She loved him. And she was wicked funny. She was hilarious. But she was underneath all of that, she was always kind. She never laughed at anybody else's expense. And it gave me a front row seat into what real Christianity looks like. And she was a. A profound part of that. And on top of that, Jerry Jewell.

Randy Bell [02:31:01] I went to high school with Jerry. For those who don't know, she was the first disabled person to ever star in a television network program, the Facts of Life. And then more recently, she was in HBO's Deadwood. And I knew her sister well, and Jerry and I are close, and she's disabled and she's also gay.

Randy Bell [02:31:24] She is very open about it, and she's also Christian. And just sitting down for long talks with Jerry was very therapeutic for me because you could tell any. I could share anything with Jerry and she could share anything with me. It doesn't leave.

Randy Bell [02:31:42] We don't share each other's stories without permission. But between Mrs. Fender, Mrs. Brown and Jerry Jewell, I felt like I had a really cool support system.

John Dehlin [02:31:53] Yeah, I think another part of the conditioning in a high demand religion is just this idea that you can't be happy without being a member of that church. You can't be moral that you'll just become a reprobate or, you know, you'll become a, you know, a bad person. You can't be a good parent. Your family, it's going to fall apart. Like, just all the fears come at you. And so it sounds like you're able to find some role models that weren't Mormon, that lived exemplary lives. And that can make you a lot less afraid to put down the Mormonism if you. If you know that you can still be a quality person like your friends.

Randy Bell [02:32:37] Well, true enough, John. I didn't want in leaving Mormonism. I didn't want to take a downward move, and I didn't want to take a lateral move. I wanted to take an upward move. If that makes sense. And these were role models that really helped me kind of navigate, because it is. It's very disoriented where you're not, you know, you don't know up from down. Your whole world view is shattered. And I count my lucky stars and them and others that I just started identifying people that I really admired in life the way they had done life. They had done life better than me. And I had had a friend who had left the church.

Randy Bell [02:33:18] I met him at byu. He had left the church way before me, and I sat down at lunch with him. And his family is doing phenomenally well beyond words. And so I've really kind of studied those who have been further down the path or never on the path to try and get some cues about, because, like I say, I didn't want to go off the rails and do something stupid. I wanted to go upward, not sideways or down.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] So just. What I think, Karen, I have decided is we want to save part two to be about your development of your Christianity.

Randy Bell [02:33:54] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:33:54] Maybe take a little break before we do that. What if you can summarize what were the hardest parts of losing your Mormon faith? And then how did you just. Just as a way to close, how did you rebound from those really hard parts?

Randy Bell [02:34:09] Or was it hard?

John Dehlin [02:34:10] Was it all good? Was it all rainbows and gumdrops and lollipops and jelly beans?

Randy Bell [02:34:15] Yeah, it was a mixed bag. Part of it was devastating because I knew I would disappoint some of the members of my family. Not all my family is in the church. Some is. It would be devastating for some of my children, and I didn't. That's not something I would ever intentionally want to do.

John Dehlin [02:34:40] What about all those friends? I mean, you're a SoCal boy. You like SoCal? Orange county, like all those Mormons in Orange County. What's going to happen if they find out Randy Bell, you know, lost his faith? That's all those young men's leaders, young women's leaders, bishops, SIG presidents, you know, friends, colleagues, bishops, they're all going to, like, go, oh, my gosh, that golden child.

Randy Bell [02:35:02] I don't know if I was ever considered a golden child, but we'll find out. You find out who your real friends are. I have one dear friend of mine say, I was in a dark place. How on earth.

John Dehlin [02:35:15] You're in your faith crisis now.

Randy Bell [02:35:17] Yeah, I'm in my faith crisis. And I tell a close friend of mine, and he says, it sounds like you're in a very dark place. That's Just an absurd comment. And it's a hurtful comment. You know, this thing hurts. There's great aspects to it, too. I love iced tea. You know, I take a walk on the wild side, you know, but, you know, Mrs. Fender turned me on to that. So it's a mixed bag. I find that it's anything but bleak. It's rough, it's tough. Trauma is. But I wouldn't.

John Dehlin [02:35:58] You would describe yourself as a trauma survivor, having been raised Mormon, basically.

Randy Bell [02:36:04] Well, it has all the characteristics of trauma.

John Dehlin [02:36:06] How so?

Randy Bell [02:36:07] Well, because there's the shock. I remember the shock. As I've told you the story. I've relived the shock. That's why I get a little choked up. There was the denial. I can't believe it. You know, there's the anger. And I tell people that ask me about anger. It's okay to be angry. It's natural to be angry. Just don't hurt yourself. Don't hurt someone else, but be angry. And I was angry. And sometimes you revisit the anger. And there's the stage of depression. Fortunately, with me, it lasted a couple months, which is normal for depression. But those are all classic signatures of trauma.

John Dehlin [02:36:41] Those sound like the stages of grief.

Randy Bell [02:36:43] Well, that's exactly what they are. Yeah. Then they're also the first five chapters of the book I wrote. So what.

John Dehlin [02:36:49] What pushes it to qualify for trauma versus just things that are sad that you have to grieve. It seems like trauma takes it to the next level beyond just the loss of a loved one or, you know, something. You'd have to grieve. Yeah, because. Because I actually agree with you. I believe that to be raised in a high demand religion and to leave it automatically qualify as a PTSD diagnosis in. In most cases, if not all, that's been my experience. I'm curious how you sort of like, feel like leaving a high demand religion pushes you into that PTSD category by default.

Randy Bell [02:37:34] John, That's a right on question. The. The guy who came up with the term ptsd. Ptsd. I happened to be on the platform at a speaking event, and he spoke after me, and I became friends with him, and.

John Dehlin [02:37:53] He.

Randy Bell [02:37:53] In the academic literature, describe trauma as something that lingers longer than a normal upset. So you break up with a girl in high school. Well, two weeks later you're dating someone else and in love with someone else. That's not trauma, at least to me. It wasn't trauma, but trauma. You know, I've been going through this for five years. That, according to the academic literature, is Trauma. It's kind of a duration. Lingering on. There's no question that this, at least for me, has been traumatic. Some people walk away with it and my hat's off to them, but almost no one.

John Dehlin [02:38:31] For most people, it's a multi year, epic journey for some multiple decades. They're still.

Randy Bell [02:38:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:38] Trying to. They're still grieving and still trying to process it.

Randy Bell [02:38:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:42] So I'm going to say five years is almost unheard of to have processed, leaving a high demand religion.

Randy Bell [02:38:48] Really?

John Dehlin [02:38:48] Yeah.

Randy Bell [02:38:49] Wow. Well, you know, this all happened to me in my late 50s and I thought to myself, I don't have time to let this linger on for decades. I've been going at it very aggressively, you know, as aggressively as I know how. And, you know, I'm glad I have because I feel like I've processed it, you know, as fast as I can, you know, and the kids are on track, you know, so, yeah, five years. And that's going at it aggressively.

John Dehlin [02:39:21] Yeah.

Randy Bell [02:39:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:22] Okay. And just as we kind of wrap up this part, next part two is going to be Randy's. This has been Randy's descent, kind of leaving Mormonism. Well, enjoying Mormonism, thriving in Mormonism, discovering it wasn't true and leaving it. That's going to be part one. Part two is going to be your ascent from your perspective into Christianity. That'll be part two that we'll do later today after a break. And then tomorrow will be your discussion with Alan Mount, sort of theism versus atheism. A respectful bridge building dialog as we end part one. And there's going to be people that are just like, learning about all this stuff for the first time. Your episode will be the first time they learned about the Book of Abraham or Peepstones or the, you know, golden plates or polyandry or whatever.

Randy Bell [02:40:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:11] As. Or, or maybe they, they. They knew about all that stuff, but were right in the thick of the trauma of a faith crisis. Do you have some final parting words of wisdom or of hope that you would want to give somebody right in the thick of the faith crisis?

Randy Bell [02:40:27] Well, I totally get it because I lived it. I mean, it's one thing for me to try and empathize with someone who's lgbt. Cause I'm not gay, but I am lgbt. Affirming. I support people that are. And so for someone who hasn't been through it, we can do our best to empathize and support and that's the right thing to do. That's all you can do. But for those who are going through it, my heart goes out to you. I've lived it. It's tough. There's times where you just break down. It's so tough, it sucks. There's no way to mask that. In fact, that's exactly the wrong thing to do. That will just prolong the trauma. You got to get out and talk about it, at least to someone. I'm talking about it publicly, but I've been talking about it privately for years because I. That's all I was comfortable doing.

John Dehlin [02:41:19] But who did you lean on to talk to?

Randy Bell [02:41:22] Well, I leaned a lot on Sam Young. Sam is a brilliant guy, as you know.

John Dehlin [02:41:32] Brilliant. He's brilliant.

Randy Bell [02:41:33] He really is certifiably brilliant. And Jonathan's. I. I binge watched all you guys. You know, Jonathan Streeter is.

John Dehlin [02:41:44] You know, he has a YouTube channel called Thoughts on Things and stuff. Yeah, right.

Randy Bell [02:41:48] He's terrific. You know, you know, Bill Real and rfm.

John Dehlin [02:41:55] It sounds like these guys are your personal friends, not just. You enjoyed their podcasts.

Randy Bell [02:41:59] Well, all of the above. I listen to their podcast. I call them the next day until we talk about them. They're, you know, you're all the apex thinkers in this space, and I have respect for those who have advanced knowledge and things because you can. You can catch top. You know, you can. You can get the concepts you need to get to process the trauma, if you will. And, yeah, I love hanging out with all you guys and. And I want to get more into. Gina Colvin is awesome because she has

John Dehlin [02:42:35] a podcast called A Thoughtful Faith.

Randy Bell [02:42:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:37] That we'll link to in the show notes.

Randy Bell [02:42:39] And that's been a big part of my, you know, reconciliation with Christianity. And Sandra Tanner I met with a few times. I'm sure she doesn't probably remember me from Adam because a lot of people visit her, but. And then I mentioned some other folks whose names I probably shouldn't use. There's been a whole kind of team that I have looked to, and there is. I'm happier than can be. You know, I'm thrilled with where I've landed, but I don't want to say I've landed because who knows where I'll be a year from now. It's more of a journey now instead of thinking that I've got it all figured out.

John Dehlin [02:43:22] So you're saying if you're going through a Mormon faith crisis, become close friends with Bill Real, rfm, Sandra Tanner, John De Lynn, Sam Young, Lindsay Hanson park, and Gina Colvin, and they'll help you through. Is that what you're saying?

Randy Bell [02:43:35] Did you mention Natasha. No, really, seriously, you want to find some friends you can talk to? And I've been very fortunate because it's crazy because I have a case up near where RFM lives, so I'm flying up there all the time. I have a case in Houston, so I see Sam, I've just been very fortunate and I'm happy to share what I've learned to the extent that others are willing to allow me to share. But. But I have been very fortunate.

John Dehlin [02:44:03] So it sounds like what you're saying is feel your feelings, embrace your emotions, be angry, be sad, embrace the stages of grief, find good friends that you can talk to, learn from the people who have been through this before you. That's the advice I've heard so far.

Randy Bell [02:44:22] Well, that. And be. Become curious. Look at science. I am very fascinated with science now. I never had that fascination before. I'm very fascinated with atheism and not in a negative way. We didn't even go through this. But when I was a true believing Mormon, I had lunch with Penn and Teller once.

John Dehlin [02:44:43] We'll cover that in the next episode.

Randy Bell [02:44:44] Okay, we'll cover that. But I'm saying get out there and talk to people. I learned meditation when I went to India and learned about Buddhism. I learned about Islam over where these guys saved my bacon in a combat zone. So I'm just saying those things are helpful how?

John Dehlin [02:45:02] In your Mormon journey, in your deconstruction phase.

Randy Bell [02:45:05] What I am more than Mormon or Christian is I'm always looking for common ground. I'm not looking at a me versus them. I'm true. You're not true. I don't believe that God came and told anybody. All churches are wrong.

Carah Burrell [02:45:19] All.

Randy Bell [02:45:19] All their creeds are an abomination and all their pastors or all their professors are corrupt.

John Dehlin [02:45:25] And here's the one true way.

Randy Bell [02:45:27] That's an absolutist mindset. I don't have that anymore. I think everybody, every atheist, every agnostic, every Buddhist, every theist, every deist, every ambivalent, every Hindu, Muslim, Christian, I learned something from. That's where I am. And so get out there and talk to people instead of being judgmental and divisive and argumentative and judgmental, get in there and talk to people and look where we have common ground. And play nice. Always play nice. Realizing that even when I go into the prisons which I'd like to talk more about, those inmates teach me profound wisdom. I'm not there to teach them. They teach me. So everybody has something of value. That's what I'M saying, okay, all right.

John Dehlin [02:46:15] And if somebody just says things are really dark and I don't know if I can make it, you would say

Randy Bell [02:46:19] to them, go slow or even back up. Take a break. Do what you're comfortable with doing. Don't have an agenda that you have to force through or a schedule. Just slow it down, you know, take it easy.

John Dehlin [02:46:36] And the best resources for a Mormon Faith Crisis. If you had to just list them off or what? Well, for you, what were most helpful for you? Resources, Books, websites, whatever.

Randy Bell [02:46:50] Well, I loved reading the books by scientists. I'm a reader. So from all these areas, my game plan was to catch up on all these things I should have been learning all along. Evolution. The Rift Valley, learning about evolution. Instead of being judgmental, I called up my old Christian friends and said, hey, you know, we're always having these debates. I'm willing to sit down and actually listen to what you say without being a jerk and trying to get into a fight. And the same thing with my atheist friends. My best man's an atheist now. So I sit down, I listen and listen to understand, just like Mrs. Brown taught me, rather than to listen to judge. Get out there, Be curious. Everyone has something of value but the

John Dehlin [02:47:36] Mormon Specific resources tied to Mormon Faith Crisis. Any particular resources you want to call out that were helpful for your Mormon faith crisis?

Randy Bell [02:47:45] Well, honestly, I'm not just saying this because I happen to be sitting here. Your podcast was. If I'm going to pick number one Mormon Stories, what's so funny about your podcast? John, I got to tell you to get a chuckle out of this. I'd heard your podcast back when you were kind of a true believer of sorts, and I thought, well, maybe John Dehlin has answers. And then I kept listening and listening, but it helped me kind of process all this stuff. So I'm a big fan of Mormon stories. What can I say?

John Dehlin [02:48:16] Okay, any others that were helpful along the way?

Randy Bell [02:48:19] They're all great.

John Dehlin [02:48:20] List them.

Randy Bell [02:48:21] Okay, sure. Mormon Stories. Jonathan Streeter.

John Dehlin [02:48:25] Thoughts on things and stuff.

Randy Bell [02:48:26] Thoughts on things and stuff. Bill.

John Dehlin [02:48:28] Real Mormonism, Mormon discussion.

Randy Bell [02:48:32] Mormon discussions.

John Dehlin [02:48:33] Mormonism live with RFM and.

Randy Bell [02:48:35] Yeah. Radiofreemon.org okay. Gee whiz. Sam Young's kind of gotten. He's kind of refocused on his business right now, but he'll be back. Yeah. Protect Every Child, Utah Lighthouse Ministry.

John Dehlin [02:48:55] Sandra Tanner.

Randy Bell [02:48:56] Yeah, Sandra Tanner. If I had one suggestion for Mormon Stories is more cowbell and more Sandra Tanner. I think she's just a treasure.

John Dehlin [02:49:04] What about CES Hunter? Letter from CES Director.

Randy Bell [02:49:06] Yeah, I got that. I read that. Really well done. Jeremy Reynolds, Gina Colvin, Natasha Huffer Parker.

John Dehlin [02:49:20] That's Mormon mental health and Mormon sex info for Natasha.

Randy Bell [02:49:24] Gee, I'm going to leave someone out.

John Dehlin [02:49:25] Oh, that's fine. I mean, that's the main stuff.

Randy Bell [02:49:28] Yeah, it's all great. And it all comes from different dimensions and different angles. And when you triangulate all this information, you can start kind of reconstructing something that sounds right and leave behind what you. What you find problematic.

John Dehlin [02:49:45] All right. All right, Randy, well, we've gone about three hours. It's time for a little lunch break. Okay. And Carah, it is always so great to have you here as well. Thanks for joining us, Carah. Any. Any final thoughts for this episode with Randy?

Carah Burrell [02:50:01] No. I also loved a lot of those people you just mentioned as well. Really helped me. My faith crisis was only two years ago, so a lot of those same resources.

Randy Bell [02:50:11] That's kind of interesting because two years and I'm. It's probably because you're younger, I guess you're more resilient.

Carah Burrell [02:50:16] I'm guessing that I bounce back really quick.

Randy Bell [02:50:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:50:18] I'm the type of person where I make up my mind and then I just kind of go forward with it. I don't spend a lot of time, like hem and hawing and. And being really dramatic about it. So I had a good cry for a little while and my whole life fell apart. And then about two months later, I was like, all right, I'm good. I moved forward. And then I didn't think a whole lot about it until I downloaded TikTok. And then I thought about it and I realized I could help people with it. But, yeah, it wasn't something that was like a long, long, long, slow burn of an ache when I discovered a lot of these problems with the church history or whatever.

Randy Bell [02:50:49] Yeah, well, I'm happy for you because, yeah, I think the longer you're in, the more your neurology becomes kind of programmed that way. You know, there's a young man I met at Thrive. I sat at the table with some really cool young people. And this one guy, his name is Jack, he says, you know, is this the 2021? The one that just happened? Okay, 2021, spectacular event, if you missed it.

Carah Burrell [02:51:10] Great host.

Randy Bell [02:51:11] She killed it. She killed it. She was hilarious, everything. And Jack was saying, you know, he was, I guess, I'm guessing 20s, early 30s maybe. And he said his whole life was programmed. You know, you grow up 12 deacon, 14 teachers, 16 priests, you know, mission at 18 BYU marriage. And he says, now I can either go on that track or any other ways. Life's kind of gone from black and white checklist to full color. So there is another side of this that's really quite vibrant and really cool. I love it.

John Dehlin [02:51:49] So you're saying for you, the metaphor of going from a life of black and white to a life of full spectrum color is how you would describe where you've ended up in your transition, even though there were some dark times.

Randy Bell [02:52:04] Dark times. But I wouldn't go back in a second. And I'm now, you take the blue

John Dehlin [02:52:10] pill and go back. You're a red pill.

Carah Burrell [02:52:13] Go back.

Randy Bell [02:52:13] I really wouldn't do that because a lot of my friends, as you figure out, Southern California, lots of clients and this and that, the vast majority of people in my world are not Mormon. But now I can have real conversations with them. And I have one particular friend who's Jewish. He's a client, he's also Jewish. We have lunch all the time as friends. And now I can really sit and listen to him and get something out of it, rather than how do I maneuver this conversation to give him a Book of Mormon, that kind of thing? Those days are over. This guy has profound wisdom that I've been ignoring for all these years. We're connecting at a whole higher level. It's super cool.

John Dehlin [02:52:54] So for you, leaving orthodox Mormonism or leaving Mormonism has allowed you to open up your mind and heart to learning from other people and, and having deeper, more meaningful emotional connections with friends and associates.

Randy Bell [02:53:09] Far, far more. And I'm not saying I'm there. I'm not where I want to be. I don't want to sound like that, but yes, I'm now communicating with all kinds of diverse people at a whole better higher level.

John Dehlin [02:53:22] Love it.

Randy Bell [02:53:23] Yeah.

Break, Reflections, and Part One Wrap-Up

John Dehlin [02:53:24] All right. All right. Well, Randy, dear friend, it's been great to have you so far for the first three hours of Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks for sharing us your Mormon story. Now what we're going to do is just come right back for part two after a short break and we're going to hear your Christian story about when everything came unraveled, how you ended up going exploring atheism, exploring agnosticism, exploring secularism, and exploring Buddhism and Islam and other things and how you started studying Christianity and ended up self identifying as a Christian and what Christianity means to you. That's all ahead on part two of our interview with Randy Bell and Dr.

John Dehlin [02:54:17] Randy Bell. And if that's not enough, we're going to come back Tomorrow for part three where we talk about atheism and theism with the Alan Mount of marriage on a tightrope. Really quick, name some of the books that you've written because you are a well published author and you've got a bunch of cool books.

Randy Bell [02:54:35] Oh, well, thanks, John. I wrote a textbook I don't recommend. It's 500 pages called Real Estate Damages. It's in its third edition. That's why I get all. I have all these cases. It's a technical book, but I wrote a book called Me, We Do Be. I was on the We. Yeah, Me, We Do Be.

John Dehlin [02:54:52] Okay.

Randy Bell [02:54:52] And the Four Cornerstones of Success. I was on the Today show with that and all kinds of media. That was a fun book. And then the book I'm out with the media promoting now is Post Traumatic Thriving.

John Dehlin [02:55:07] You helped write the biography of Leo fellow.

Randy Bell [02:55:10] Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah, I wrote the book. I finished the book with Mrs. Fender. The title is Leo Fender. And if you're into music, Leo Fender.com is the website. But that's about the story of Leo Fender. And I've got a museum exhibit we're putting together that's going to be going in a museum soon. And then the book I'm doing now is Post Traumatic Thriving, and that's doing pretty well. But I got hit really hard with COVID in the last year and so that's a little. Been messed up marketing schedule, but yeah, but it's had great reviews and great media interviews and that's been a lot of fun.

John Dehlin [02:55:44] Yeah. All right.

Randy Bell [02:55:46] And it never mentions the word Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:55:48] And are you talking about your next book or. Not yet.

Randy Bell [02:55:51] Maybe we can talk. Talk me into it over lunch. We'll see.

John Dehlin [02:55:54] Okay.

Randy Bell [02:55:56] All right.

John Dehlin [02:55:56] Well, Randy, thanks for your generosity supporting. Well, thanks for your friendship.

Randy Bell [02:56:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:02] Thanks for your support of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation and thanks for your generosity here sharing your story. And I think Carah would join me in saying we're really grateful.

Carah Burrell [02:56:11] I am really grateful. It's been a lot of good parallels. Really interesting.

Randy Bell [02:56:15] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:56:15] Thanks so much.

Randy Bell [02:56:16] Yeah. Well, thank you. And I'm going to just say I've chipped in a couple bucks to Mormon Stories. And I think, you know, I kid around with you, John. I've saved $50,000 in therapy from listening to your podcast. I think we all need to support

John Dehlin [02:56:30] this and maybe a little tithing.

Randy Bell [02:56:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I really do. I think if we're benefiting and there's an enormous benefit to your platform, certainly I have chip in a few bucks. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:43] All right, you can do that@mormonstories.org you can become a monthly donor. Click on the donate button. 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, a hundred bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. It's what keeps us going. And we lose donors every month. Less than one out of a thousand of our listeners are actually donors. So if. If you can't afford to donate, don't feel a second worth of guilt. We give it away for free to help people, no matter what. If you're in a position to help us financially, it pays for Carah, it pays for Jen. It pays for Jennifer. It pays for Gerardo. It pays for Brooklyn. It pays for this amazing staff and all the equipment and resources. So, yeah, please. Thanks. Thanks for the call out, Randy. And. And thanks, yeah, to everyone for this.

Randy Bell [02:57:26] I think we all need to step it up with. With support, you know, financial. This stuff, you know, it's. It's an impressive thing you put together, and I can't say enough. And one out of a thousand. Give me a break. Come on, people. Five bucks a month. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [02:57:44] We got to pay care more, too. Right here.

Carah Burrell [02:57:46] Yeah, I got a wardrobe budget.

Randy Bell [02:57:47] Yeah, make it 650amonth. Cup of coffee.

John Dehlin [02:57:51] All right, everyone. Don't go away. Come right back. Whether you're listening just in audio or whether you're on YouTube or Facebook or wherever you enjoy Mormon Stories podcast, come right back for part two, where we're going to talk about Christianity after Mormonism with Dr. Randy Bell, part two. And then tomorrow, we'll have part three with Alan Mount, theism versus atheism.

Randy Bell [02:58:13] And I didn't mention Alan Mount because I know he's coming here tomorrow with. Is he bringing Katie?

John Dehlin [02:58:18] I don't think so.

Randy Bell [02:58:18] Oh, darn it.

John Dehlin [02:58:19] She's like her more. She's better.

Randy Bell [02:58:21] She's wonderful.

John Dehlin [02:58:23] All right. Thanks again, Carah. You're awesome.

Carah Burrell [02:58:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:25] So great to have you.

Carah Burrell [02:58:25] Thanks, Randy. It's been really good.

John Dehlin [02:58:28] All right, and thanks, everyone. We'll see you guys again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com for any feedback. Take care, everybody.

Part Two Begins: The Journey Beyond Mormonism

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1534

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is January 17, 2022, and we are here back for part two of our epic interview with Dr. Randy Bell. Hey, Randy Bell. Randy, my friend. Thank you.

Randy Bell [00:00:19] My friend, John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] How was lunch?

Randy Bell [00:00:21] It was terrific and thanks for having me back.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Yeah, it's good to have you. For those of you who did not join us for part part one or who are just jumping in now based on the thumbnail or the title, which is from Mormon to Christian, we are. We are in part two of our interview with Randy Bell. We spent three hours with him in the previous episode where we talked about him kind of being born into the Mormon Church in Orange County, California, being raised as one of seven children, the second youngest of seven, doing the Mormon Orange county thing, growing up knowing the Leo Fender and the Fender family, enjoying his Mormon experience as a youth, doing the Mormon seminary thing in high school, graduating high school, serving the Mormon mission in the UK in specifically the home of Led Zeppelin, which is where?

Randy Bell [00:01:18] Birmingham, England. Birmingham, England, Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] And eventually going to BYU and settling back in California, marrying at age 30, 31.

Randy Bell [00:01:30] Yeah. Somewhere around there in the Mormon Temple,

John Dehlin [00:01:33] having, raising four kids, Mormon. We talked briefly about his first marriage ending. He did remarry. And then we ended by Randy talking about his Mormon faith crisis and kind of how he lost his Mormon faith. That's how we ended up what we, what we also were able to inter. Mingle, intermix into his story was his fascinating career. And Randy, I'm not going to do that justice. So for those who didn't catch part one, why don't you give us a quick recap of just briefly what your profession is and the types of cases you've been involved with so that people can know that your part one is fascinating and worth checking out.

Randy Bell [00:02:14] Well, absolutely, check it out. My career is in the field of real estate damage economics, and I study disasters. And so some of the cases I've worked on, I've worked on hundreds. But the World Trade Center, Hurricane Katrina,

John Dehlin [00:02:28] the World Trade center bombings, right?

Randy Bell [00:02:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sandy Hook, school shooting, the Pulse, nightclub shooting, O.J. simpson, John Benny Ramsey, Hurricane Katrina, the Bikini Atoll, nuclear weapons tests. I've done cases, you know, all over the world.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Yeah. And so you don't want to miss part one. And part two is particularly important to me and to many of my listeners because on Mormon Stories podcast, I would say half of the people we've interviewed, if not more, once there's Something about Mormonism that for many who lose their faith in it and or leave it, they somehow migrate oftentimes to agnosticism or atheism, and I think both. Randy, you'd be the first to validate any path.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] I would as well. I personally don't identify as atheist or agnostic. That's not important to me. To have that sort of identity or to make that sort of put that stake in the ground. For others, it's important. We have Carah Burrell, who'll be joining us briefly. For her, it's really important to put that stake in the ground.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] But one of the things we really like to do on Mormon Stories podcast is provide healthy role models for everyone, regardless of where they are on the faith spectrum. And for some, just kind of migrating into a secular life is going to be what they choose. It's going to be what works for them or what works for them for a certain period of time. For others, it's going to be really important. Even if you leave the Mormon church to hang on to God or hang on to Jesus or to find some sort of Christian church or other type of church that might work for you.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] We, we support that on Mormon Stories podcast. We validate it. We've tried in the past, whether it's Paul Cardall, Sean McCraney, Sandra Tanner, you know, there. There hopefully have been a lot of Mormon Stories podcast interviews we've done with people that become Christians. We, we did a whole series on the South Mountain Church that I think was useful to a lot of people.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] Yeah. And so we validate the Christian path and we want to always showcase, you know, people who make that journey. So, Randy, you're. You're very much in that line. We covered your faith crisis in part one, and what we've billed this as for part two is from Mormon to Christian. And just briefly, I want to give a quick disclaimer about that. I started the last episode with the same disclaimer. I, of all people, am aware that Mormons take umbrage at and. Or are offended by attempt to characterize them as non Christian. That is not my intent in naming this episode. When you Write thumbnails and YouTube descriptions or titles, you got to keep it to like six to eight words.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Right. And so it was just the quickest way for me to describe your journey. And, and, but, but in no way are we saying that Mormons aren't Christians. I was raised in the LDS Church. I felt that I was a Christian then. I was raised in Katy, Texas, with Southern Baptists who would always accuse us of. Of not being Christian. And I hated that then. I don't think it's accurate now. And so that's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is you, you know, you did, you did lose your faith in the Mormon Church, but you've settled in a place where you believe in a.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Some type of supreme being and you self identify as a Christian and you have a certain set of beliefs in Jesus Christ. And we're going to be talking today about how you made that journey or that transition from ex Mormon to someone who follows Christ and believes in Christ. Anything you want to add to that disclaimer or to that introduction before we jump in?

Randy Bell [00:06:22] Well, I think you did a really nice job with that disclaimer. I certainly support those who remain Mormon or are Mormon. Certainly that includes a lot of my family and friends. So I echo what you said, that I have absolutely no malice. And whether people land there or stay there or atheism or agnostic or Hindu or Buddhist, my path is Christian. I follow what Jesus said, don't judge and love everyone. And that's just kind of the way I roll, or at least I try to. So thanks for the disclaimer. I agree with everything you said.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] Okay, excellent. And we're very, very lucky to have back with us in studio, the Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:07:12] You're lucky. I'm lucky. It's gonna be a great chat. I can't wait.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] How you like Randy? How do you like this Randy guy?

Carah Burrell [00:07:17] I like this guy.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:07:19] I can't wait to read one of your books. I don't know which one to even start with. I think you're a fascinating man all around. Can't wait to get into this section of your beliefs, so.

Randy Bell [00:07:27] Well, thanks. And I, I enjoyed our conversation over lunch over different beliefs. I love the discussion. So, yeah. Rock and roll.

Carah Burrell [00:07:35] Yeah, rock and roll. There's one way to summarize so far. Rock and.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Or rock and roll.

Randy Bell [00:07:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] All right. All right. So. So, Randy, the way that we left off was just the. I don't know if I think you even said catastrophe is an okay way to describe a Mormon faith crisis. I'm guessing that it felt catastrophic. It leaves you without a sense of spirituality, without a sense of community, without a sense of morality, sometimes without a sense of meaning and purpose, without resolutions about the afterlife. It can be really destabilizing and traumatic and distressing.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] And I know that one of the things I loved most about your part one, you talked about how with all your Dealings professionally and in the courtroom. You do a lot of work in, you know, as a, as a, you know, testifying in court. You've always valued epistemology, you've always valued critical thinking. And I got a sense that you felt like, man, how did I make it to 60?

John Dehlin [00:08:35] Kind of bamboozled in a sense. So I, I'm guessing that as you wound up your Mormonism, you were not, you were not keen to be fooled again. Is that true?

Randy Bell [00:08:46] It's very true. I, what I did immediately or right, you know, in the, in the midst of this whole shambles of my old belief system was I turned back to my old school books of critical thinking and I revisited and re examined the fundamentals of critical thinking and epistemology. Because whatever I built back and I genuinely didn't know what that was going to look like. I wanted it to have a defendable position. Even though these are big questions, ultimately we can't know. I have beliefs, but I no longer say I know, but whatever I believed, I wanted to have defensible reasons for it.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Okay, so let's, so let's go ahead and jump into your story. So, you know, as you are having your world come undone and everything's falling apart religiously, let's, let's take us through that point. Even if you have to draw back into some influences that may have informed your journey into Christianity, let's just jump in. Where do you want to start?

Randy Bell [00:09:55] Well, I think the thing that I did was I started with Aristotle and Aristotle taught egos, logos and pathos. Egos is ethical. I want to just stick with information that right or wrong people are telling the truth and not concealing anything.

Randy Bell [00:10:15] So ethos, logos, is it logical? Does this just make logical sense? And then pathos, meaning, does it resonate? Does the story ring true? I think emotion is still an element, an important element, but it needs to be balanced with egosum, logos. And then the fourth thing is I added duos, which is I want to look at both sides of the story. I had not been looking at both sides of the story prior to that. And whatever position I wanted, if I was taking a believing point of view, I wanted to talk to atheists and agnostics. If I was taking an atheist or agnostic point of view, I wanted to listen to believers, I wanted to cover all my bases and listen to both sides of the story. And that was my fundamental foundational game plan.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] So having you lay it out with like four pillars, like, I'm guessing almost none of my listeners were that rigorous. And intentional at the beginning of the unraveling of everything. Are you saying, like, you literally sat down and came up with those four things and said, I'm going to figure out what to believe now and I'm going to base it on those four pillars?

Randy Bell [00:11:23] Are you saying, well, I didn't quite do it that way, but yeah, I did sit down and I did. My head's spinning at this point, and I'm saying I got to get. Stop from spinning and land somewhere. And frankly, through my doctoral program, I had the benefit of some really outstanding doctoral advisors and dissertation committee. They taught this stuff to me. I already kind of. I already knew it on a professional level. I just needed to basically dust off the textbooks and bring it back to my personal belief system.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] Okay, so

Randy Bell [00:11:59] for.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Let me just say that for. Let's say at least half of the people that we've interviewed and that I interact with, what often happens is they. They lose their faith in, in the Mormon Church. They lose their faith in Joseph Smith and in. In the Book of Mormon, but they really don't want to get rid of a belief in God or in Jesus. So there's this period and car. I think this might have been your experience a little bit. It's like, well, I can't. You can't lose. Can't lose faith that Jesus or God. Right. And that's almost. Sometimes parents, that's almost immediately their reaction is like, well, I hope you still believe in Jesus. You know what I mean?

Randy Bell [00:12:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:37] But for some reason, for a lot of people who go through this, there's something about Mormonism. It's so totalistic. It's so, you know, it basically devalues every other religious tradition and basically says they're all abominations, they're all false, they're all corrupt. It just, you know, and there's something about the uniqueness of the Mormon experience where for so many, it's just like, I'm done with all. And what often happens is once you've learned how to deconstruct one scriptural text, meaning the Book of Mormon.

Randy Bell [00:13:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] It doesn't take long to go, huh, well, that Bible, you know, and then they start applying those same, you know, that same rigor, that same set of critiques to the Bible and then to God and then, and then what happens for so many is just it all unravels.

Randy Bell [00:13:25] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Was that how it started for you or did you not even have that experience?

Randy Bell [00:13:31] Well, I had all of that. And again, I described it as a lot of pots on the Stove, I'm maneuvering around, but I was willing to accept that there is no God. And as I sit here right now, I don't know that there's a God. I believe there's a God. I believe 51% or more of the evidence suggests that there's a God, but I don't know anything. So let's get real about this absolute. I know this. I know that I don't know anything other than I don't know everything.

Randy Bell [00:14:05] And then I had had a conversation, I had lunch once with Penn and Teller and I'm happy to hear the comedians, right? Yeah, the comedians, the magicians down in Las Vegas. And Penn is a very ardent atheist. And I was there to talk about Houdini, my Houdini collection. Not anything religious. But, you know, Penn was somewhat, you know, he was evangelizing me into atheism at the time. I was a true believing Mormon. And we had a fascinating lunch and he introduced me to the blind watchmaker by. I'm having a senior moment. Christopher. Not Christopher Hitchens.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Dawkins.

Randy Bell [00:14:46] Dawkins. And Richard Dawkins. Richard Dawkins. And, and I became very fascinated with atheism because prior to meeting Penn and Teller, I kind of just assumed everyone believed in God. I don't know, I just hadn't given a lot of thought. And so I was willing to question that. I was willing to go agnostic. I was willing to go kind of where the evidence led me the best I could, knowing that as you described it, I have a bias. Everybody has a bias. If you don't have a bias, then

John Dehlin [00:15:20] you're lying or unaware.

Randy Bell [00:15:23] Profoundly unaware. So, yeah, I have a bias because I always liked Jesus ever since I was a little kid and I recognized that. So I had to kind of acknowledge my bias, acknowledge the critical thinking of egos, logos, pathos and duos. Re. Look at all my epistemology research from my doctoral degree and start with. My game plan was to look at atheism, science, agnosticism, deism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Jewish and Christian. That was, it was a big game plan. And, and I really went to work to study them all with as open mind as I possibly could.

Exploring Atheism, Agnosticism, and New Thinkers

John Dehlin [00:16:00] So as best as you can, take us chronologically, how the, how you remember the journey happening?

Randy Bell [00:16:07] Well, yeah, I first went to.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Did you, did you continue tending, attending the Mormon Church after you no longer believed in the Mormon Church?

Randy Bell [00:16:18] No, I was out. I, I didn't want to draw the process out. I was out, period.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] You just stopped like you lost your faith. Read those Essays. And you were just stuck.

Randy Bell [00:16:26] I saw.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:16:27] On that day, that one single day. And I was. I'm done. I'm out.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] See, that's rare. A lot of people keep attending care. I'm trying to remember what you did, but a lot of people keep attending even after they stop believing for whatever reason.

Randy Bell [00:16:39] I was tempted to, for. For social, for community reasons, but I just didn't. It's kind of like, do you rip off the band aid slow or fast? And it's like, I just can't accept this. These are not my values. I like upfront. I like full disclosure. I don't like undo influence. I know all what that means from a legal point of view. And I just decided to rip the bandaid off fast and get with it.

Carah Burrell [00:17:08] Yeah. Similar. I was sick to my stomach when I read the similar gospel topics essays and the things that I had never known before about this prophet that I had said that I knew he was a prophet my entire life. I was sick to my stomach and I couldn't imagine myself walking into a church building ever again after that day.

Randy Bell [00:17:24] Yeah, I get it because I think we landed on the same place in that department for sure.

Carah Burrell [00:17:31] Yeah. No physically and mentally out attending. For me, just clean break.

Randy Bell [00:17:37] Yeah. And one thing is that I talked to my brother, who's also Christian. He's a very bright guy and he's a recovered alcoholic. So he's really been through the meat grinder of life with some areas that he got, you know, some mistakes he's made. But he's been sober for years and years and has really built a phenomenal life. So I had a lot of conversations with him. Like I say, to resolve a trauma, you got to find a new tribe that you can talk openly about things. So I talked to my brother, who's, you know, he had phenomenal insights.

Randy Bell [00:18:22] Then I also reflected on Judaism and I had a friend. She just passed away at the age of 100, but she survived the Holocaust. Her name's Erica. She lived in downtown la. And so whenever I was downtown with meetings or something, I would go and visit her. Prior to Covid. And Erica was so bright and so cheerful. And whenever I went to the nursing home, she'd be the one person out in the sunshine. And she took up at the age of 80, oil paintings and beautiful oil paintings. And I've been fortunate to collect many of several of her paintings. But I would sit and talk to her for hours about her faith and the Holocaust and what she went through and what I found so baffling and so fascinating is that she somehow made peace.

Randy Bell [00:19:15] She had to make peace with Hitler, of all people. And she would talk about the Nazi soldiers in very compassionate terms, in terms of they had fear in their eyes and they had grief in their eyes. They were being traumatized.

Randy Bell [00:19:30] I'm not saying what they did was right. I'm not trying to build a sympathetic case for Nazi soldiers or for Hitler. But she found a way to make peace with them, and her Jewish faith allowed her to do that.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] You sense that she still believed in God and still believed in the tenets of her Jewish faith?

Randy Bell [00:19:48] I sense that she did, but she wasn't verbose about them. She was very quiet about them. I would ask her and I would respect boundaries and this and that, but her faith was very quiet, but it was there and it was such that. And I thought, whatever she's got. Because I got to make peace with Joseph Smith and I got to make peace with the apostles and prophets that didn't come out and talk about this stuff decades or forever ago as they should have, you know. So I got a lot of a sense of insights from Erica and her journey. I thought, if she can survive the Holocaust and losing a lot of her family, I think most of it, I can do this. That gave her.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] You mean if her faith can survive that?

Randy Bell [00:20:37] Yeah, if her faith can survive it. And her disposition, her sunniness, her cheerfulness, her. And it wasn't a phony, masking the pain kind of thing. She was real, she was authentic. And she found various avenues to channel her thinking into positive ways. And that was really my interest. I wasn't interested in bashing Mormonism or any other ism. That just wasn't. And it's still not my agenda. I was looking for people that had healed and learning from them. So I gained something from. From Judaism and my long talks with Erica.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] Okay, yeah. Did you actually investigate Judaism as a faith to join?

Randy Bell [00:21:25] I have another buddy who's Jewish and we go to lunch all the time. And I don't get. And also one of my dissertation or one of my college professors, she converted from Catholic to Judaism, and I talked to her. I looked into it. We'll just say I looked into it and I found that it had some really beautiful tenets and beliefs. I have them in my notes. I don't have them memorized. So, yeah, I considered it. I don't know that I really went down that road far in terms of should I convert to Judaism. But I had talked to people that had, and I got insights from their Journey.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:22:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] All right, what's next?

Randy Bell [00:22:10] Well, then I, I, I was in Egypt, in Israel, and I wandered into a. I was with an Arab Israeli guy who is very funny guy. We had a lot of fun, but he, he was very brash. And he would go into areas that were very militarized and not have any fear. And I'm looking at all these machine guns and, and watchtowers and stuff, and I was, you know, I was petrified.

Randy Bell [00:22:38] But he took it too far. We were going, I wanted to see the tomb of Abraham and Sarah, which is in Hebron. And we went there. And he says, we can either go this path that the tourists go on or we can take the real path. I said, well, let's, you know, let's take an adventure. And somebody said, the area is hot, which I thought, you know, means take off my jacket. I didn't know what hot meant. Hotmat. It's a combat zone. So we're going down there, and we're walking along this road that was like out of a movie. And this guy came out and started screaming at us and telling us he was going to shoot us.

Randy Bell [00:23:14] So my buddy, my guide, he says, just back up slowly. And I just started walking backwards. And I won't get into that whole conflict, but that was pretty freaky. So we went up and around. We would walking by an elementary school that had been just blown up, and all of a sudden the air raid sirens run off. My buddy hit the deck and went against the wall. I was scared to death. I went against the wall, and all of a sudden there was machine gun fire on the other side of the wall. A bomb went off.

Randy Bell [00:23:46] I was horrified. I thought, I've taken it too far. I love adventure. I'm curious, but this is nuts. And, and I'm sitting there crouched against this wall, and these three Muslim guys come out of their house crouched down towards me. And I thought, I don't know what's going to happen here. And they came up to me, and this guy looks me in the face and he goes, I hate your government, but I love you. And I said, I love you too, man.

Randy Bell [00:24:16] I was so relieved. He goes, we put up with this shit every day. Can you believe this? He says, stay here, stay low, and if it gets worse, we will hide you in our house. And I thought, that's awesome. And they literally protected me with their bodies.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] And you got a sense they were Muslim.

Randy Bell [00:24:35] Oh, they were Muslim. They told me they were Muslim. And I just thought, you know, I don't know what Their parents put in their corn flakes, but I want some of that, or, you know, I'm their enemy as an American, and they're out protecting me. I just. I don't know that I thought, boy, maybe I should become a Muslim. But I sure gained a respect for that faith because, yeah, there are terrorists and there's this and there's that and there's all kinds of labels. I say I'm Christian, and people, you know, get all kinds of ideas. But underneath that, over there, they see

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Christians as terrorists, right? They do.

Randy Bell [00:25:11] They do. Whole different perspective. Whole different perspective. And I just. I mean, there were lots of stories with, you know, Islamic people and Muslims, but that's just one to illustrate that I gained. I kind of put off my stereotypes and my prejudice and, you know, Jesus. Words of I was a stranger and you welcomed me took a whole new meaning when that was done to me, that I need to do that to others, you know, so that was a big moment in my faith journey, and just kind of putting off the stereotypes and just, you know, being cool and letting people let them know who you are, rather than making prejudgments, which I was very prone to doing prior to that.

Randy Bell [00:26:03] Another one was I went to India, and I had a guide there, and actually he was Hindu, and he took me around temples. There was this one temple that I don't know how to explain it. And I know people would say that's just elevation, emotion. I get that. But this place was just deeply spiritual.

Randy Bell [00:26:24] And then we went to Buddhist temples. And then he pointed at another temple. He says, well, that's kind of a subset of Buddhism. They're very wealthy there. And I just wasn't particularly interested in that. We went to the Gandhis river, and I was just trying to immerse myself in that. And we talked about meditation.

Randy Bell [00:26:46] And ironically, of all places, I learned about meditation in San Quentin Prison. I was sitting on a plane. A buddy came up to me. I hadn't seen him in 15 years. He looks at me and goes, hey, are you Randall Bell? And I look up and I, oh, are you?

Randy Bell [00:27:04] And it was an old buddy from 15 years ago. He volunteers at San Quentin Prison. And I was fascinated. And then on the flight, he says, well, you want to go to prison? I'll get you in. And the thought that went through my mind was, Jesus always said, visit those in prison. I've never done that. I've totally neglected that.

Randy Bell [00:27:26] And as I explore Christianity, I need to, you know, see what that's all about. So I went into prison. And it was the most surreal spiritual experience I've ever had. Take all the sacrament meetings and Paul H. Dunn firesides and all the seminary and all the BYU devotionals. Put them all together in a jar of spirituality. What I experienced in prison, where these inmates are oftentimes in for the rest of their lives, and watching their process and their struggles to lead a good, decent life, even in prison, was just surreal. And the first time I meditated, I was in a circle of men and other volunteers in a circle, and I was literally holding hands with two convicted murderers.

Randy Bell [00:28:10] But, I mean, I'm happy to drill down into that if you like, but I can just tell you that it was profoundly spiritual, profoundly insightful. And by the way, this is a secular program. This is not a religious outreach program.

Randy Bell [00:28:29] This is all secular. But that was. I don't know. I walked away from that experience, and I kept going back and back and back, but I kept going back because it was so spiritually satisfying, like I had never experienced before.

Randy Bell [00:28:47] So hopefully you're kind of getting the idea that I'm just doing. I'm open to any experience as long as I think it's got a shot at. At learning something new.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] And I'm. I'm not getting the sense that when you're studying Hinduism or Buddhism or Islam or talking to your Muslim friends or your Jewish friends, that you're really investigating joining a church. It sounds like you're learning about how people believe, why they believe, and you're learning about different modes of belief. And it sounds like in your journey, it's making you. You know, it's. It's making you more aware of and knowledgeable about world religions, which Mormonism doesn't really encourage. And it's helping augment and build your respect for various religious traditions and that I can relate to that, too. That that's all. You know, one of the gifts of a Mormon faith crisis, or any faith crisis, is seeing that there's a big, beautiful world out there.

Randy Bell [00:29:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] And that there's truth and beauty everywhere.

Randy Bell [00:29:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] That Mormons don't even. Mormons or Christians don't have a monopoly on truth. Truth or wisdom or goodness or morality. And you can even find that everywhere. So.

Randy Bell [00:30:04] But.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] So it sounds like you were having that experience, which I relate to, but it also doesn't sound like you were church shopping per se, at least in what you've described so far. Is that true?

Randy Bell [00:30:17] I think that's true. The only thing I would add is that I was approaching all of these, whether we're talking about inmates or a Holocaust survivor or a Hindu man or any of these folks. I was looking to them as having something I needed to learn from them. I wasn't there to proselytize them. I wasn't there because I hadn't landed on Christianity and I wasn't sure. And I was open that if they said something really provocative, maybe I should investigate further, which I did in the prison thing, secular program. But I went back and spent weeks up there and got certified. Now I can go into prisons and facilitate these group meetings.

Randy Bell [00:31:01] So I was open to whatever there was. But I always had the belief that these folks all had something to teach me. I didn't have anything to teach them. I didn't know. I didn't know which way was up, but I had something to learn from them.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] Isn't that beautiful to discover that there's. For me, I talk about the burdens of Mormonism. One of the burdens for Mormonism for me was feeling like we were the one true church and we had all the goodness and all the truth and that everybody else was inferior. I actually experienced that as a burden as a Mormon because that wasn't how I saw the world, but that's how I felt like my church taught me to see the world and humankind. So when I lost my Mormon faith, all of a sudden I felt like I joined the human race and was able to love and respect everyone no matter what. And it was very, very uplifting for me.

Randy Bell [00:31:58] I couldn't agree more. I think of it as a. I think of it as I went from black and white to full color because these folks, these people that I used to be self righteous and judgmental of, I'm not saying all Mormons are, but I can speak for myself. I was that way. And I don't think I learned that on my own. But that all being said, I went into full color mode where I realized that these people had just great wisdom, great stories, great humor, great everything. And I had been missing out on seeing that, you know, before all, all this. Okay, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] I. Okay. So you said you lost your faith around 2016, 2017 in Mormonism, right?

Randy Bell [00:32:44] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Do you remember when you first stepped foot in a non Mormon church as an observer slash investigator? And was there any flirtation with atheism or agnosticism before or after that moment you first stepped foot in a church? And what was the impetus to you making that first step into a church?

Randy Bell [00:33:11] Well, I remember going on Amazon and ordering Richard Dawkins the God Delusion. I thought his title was very arrogant. I mean, in other words, all of us who believe in God are delusional. But I was kind of like pressing the, like a John Dehlin Facebook post for the first time. You know, you feel a little fear and trepidation. I'm going to like John Dehlin's post. But I muscled through that and then I pushed the buy button for Richard Dawkins and I bought all the atheist books I could think of and I called Atheist Friends. I said, what books do you recommend I read? And I remember being fearful thinking, oh man, I'm really, you know, dabbling with the devil here kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] Name the main authors, just so people.

Randy Bell [00:33:54] Well, there's Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett. And then the new one I've just had, Michael Schumer. Yeah, there's others, but those were the main four. And someone close to me particularly recommended Dawkins. And I thought, you know what, maybe there's something really compelling here. So I read the Dawkins book once and then chapter four really popped out at me because that's where the rubber meets the road, at least as far as I can tell. Chapter four is titled why There Almost Is Certainly no God. It's a very long title, but that's the title as I recall. And I read it probably 10 times to get it.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] Do you remember even enough, a tiny bit? Enough to just describe the main argument that.

Randy Bell [00:34:45] Sure. He starts off with an argument of Fred, Gee, he's out of Oxford, I'm having senior moments. But anyway, it's this idea that. And this guy's Fred Hoyle. Fred Hoyle had an argument that if the odds of the universe, it's a fine tuning argument with atheism, that if a tornado passed over a junkyard, it would form, it would build a 747. And that argument was made by an atheist, Fred Hoyle. But Richard Dawkins was kind of mocking Fred Hoyle as I read the book, making fun of him for that argument.

Randy Bell [00:35:26] And then Dawkins kind of has a very interesting writing style where he kind of wanders all over the place. And so I started kind of just drawing lines where he's going on rants against religion because that's not an affirmative argument and critical thinking. So I just crossed that wherever he went on a rant against religion, he was not supporting his argument, which he's purporting to do. So I, I was.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] The argument with the twister, the tornado or whatever was it, the, the watch that if someone were to stumble on a watch, there's no way that the watch would have just matter would have spontaneously, under no influence, just spontaneously coalesced into a watch. There must have been a watchmaker. If there's a watch and simultaneously a tornado is not going to come through and then all of a sudden what comes out of it?

Randy Bell [00:36:16] Well, 747 with Fred Hoyle and the Blind Watchmaker. That's another Richard Dawkins book. You know, the Blind Watchmaker. And yeah, it's the idea you come across a watch. There's an obvious designer, there's an obvious watchmaker, but even though you don't know who he is or who she is or anything about them, it's the same concept.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] And Hitchens and Dawkins or whoever, they were making fun of that argument, basically.

Randy Bell [00:36:42] Is that right? Yeah, he made some kind of. Dawkins is a very sarcastic writer. He's an anti theist. Even Guardian magazine, which is kind of an atheist leaning publication, kind of says Dawkins is not doing our community any good with his mocking tone. But that's kind of how I think

John Dehlin [00:37:01] when you say antitheist explained to viewers and listeners what that means.

Randy Bell [00:37:05] Well, there's numerous articles out there that atheism is not immune from having different denominations. There's a lot of different kinds of atheists and one of them is an anti theist, which means I'm out to all religion is bad and I'm out to stop all religion. It's kind of like Stalin and Chairman Mao. I mean, took it on a political level. It's very extreme.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] If you hate all religion and want to take all religion down, you're probably an anti theist.

Randy Bell [00:37:32] Yeah, yeah, that's basically it. And yet there's a number of other atheists kind of denominations that I really relate to. I totally get it. I mean in terms of logic and reason and unsupportable arguments and all of that. I resonated when I went through the list. I think there's about 16 all but anti theism I resonated with at some level.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] Do you want to quickly talk about the difference between atheism and agnosticism? Because they're not even on the same spectrum. They're totally, they're totally talking about two different ways of looking at the world. Do you want to talk about that? Sure. Okay.

Randy Bell [00:38:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] Because a lot of, a lot of our listeners, especially if they're new to their faith crisis, probably just merge atheism. Agnosticism is almost Being the same thing, but they're actually talking about two very different things. Do you want to talk about that?

Randy Bell [00:38:25] Well, sure, if Carol will join me. Because keep me honest, if I speak out of line, throw something at me. But as I understand it, atheists are sure that they don't believe in God. It's less that they are sure that there is no God, but they are pretty sure in their minds as an atheist that they don't believe in a God or have not yet seen compelling evidence that there is a God.

Carah Burrell [00:38:49] And I think Dawkins has a scale that he invented on like a scale of 1 to 7. That sounds familiar to you?

Randy Bell [00:38:54] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:38:54] And most atheists don't call themselves a 7 out of 7 atheists where they literally believe there is no God. That's why most fall back on what I call myself, which is an agnostic atheist, which tells you that you can't know for sure that there's no God, but you don't have a belief in a God is what your atheism is basically trying to communicate.

Randy Bell [00:39:11] Well said. Yeah. And I think I get agnostic atheism because in large part, I'm also agnostic. I got a lot, a lot of questions. Agnostic. To answer your question, John, is. I'm questioning, I'm not sure I, I. But I'm a seeker. I'm trying to figure it out. But that's the essence of being agnostic.

John Dehlin [00:39:31] Yeah. And if I could just compliment what you guys are saying. Think of viewers and listeners that are new to this whole conversation. The way I think about it, one scale is to what extent do you believe in a.

Carah Burrell [00:39:42] Wait, I got a great analogy. Can I explain? This is a great analogy. Sure, I'm gonna. Sorry, I, I know where you're going, and I got a better one. And then if you like yours better, go back to yours. Atheists, we're such bitches. So if the question is, do you believe in God? And you have three doors. Do you know this analogy, John, that I'm going with? Okay, he's all mad at me now.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] No, no, no, no, I'm not. I interrupt you sometimes it's actually important that you interrupt me.

Carah Burrell [00:40:09] Let's somebody make a super, like, combination. Of all the times John's interrupted me, I feel better. If the question is, Carah, do you believe in God? That someone's posing that question to me. And the doors that I could pick are yes, no, and maybe I have to pick the no door because I don't have a belief in God. So that's the I, that's the atheist question. I don't have a belief in God. But if the question is different, which would be is there a God? And the doors are yes, no, and I don't know. I have to, if I'm being honest, always pick the I don't know door.

Carah Burrell [00:40:38] We could be in a simulation. There's a million other ways that God could be hiding himself. So to say that I know with a certainty if there's a God or not, I'm not going to pick the yes or no door. I'm going to pick the I don't know door. And that's what makes me an agnostic atheist. It's an I don't know. And I also don't have a belief in God.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] Very good. That's great.

Randy Bell [00:40:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] And then I'll, and then I'll just provide a, a similar but maybe a different angle. If you think about the axis of theism, a, a theist would be someone who believes in a God. An atheist would be someone who doesn't believe in a God. Right. And then there's shades in between.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] And then the, the gnosticism or the gnostic spectrum is to what extent do you believe it's knowable as to whether or not there is a God? And a. Someone who is gnostic would say it's knowable whether it's by feeling or the spirit or emotion or whatever, it's knowable as to whether or not there's a God. And an agnostic would say it's not knowable whether or not there is a God. So you can be a gnostic theist, which is what most Mormons claim to be, which is I know that there's a God. You can be an agnostic theist, which is I believe in God, but I have no idea whether there really is a God.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] And I don't think anyone can know, but I'm just going on the side of belief. So you can be a not an agnostic theist or you can be an atheist. An agnostic atheist saying, I don't believe in a God, but I don't, But I don't think that anybody really knows for sure. And then the last option would be a.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] What would it be? It would be an atheist, agnostic atheist, meaning that I know there is not a God. I have an absolute certainty.

Randy Bell [00:42:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] That there is no God. I have to be honest. Sometimes believers or theists put up a straw man that atheists are just as religious as, as, as theists, because atheists are dogmatically. Claim to know that there is no God. I don't know a lot of atheists who, who would say that they know there isn't a God. They would just say I haven't seen the evidence yet. So in that case it's a bit of a straw man. That's why you're not going to find a lot of gnostic. I don't even know if gnostic is the right term, but that's the right term. Agnostic atheist. In my experience you won't find a lot of those people. Most atheists are also agnostic. But don't be confused. You can also be a believer, a theist and an agnostic.

Randy Bell [00:43:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Is that, is that okay? Maybe I didn't add anything care to what you said.

Carah Burrell [00:43:23] I just put in the show notes for anyone listening. There's a chart of the axises that John was explaining. So if you need to see it on paper, look at it on your screen or something.

Randy Bell [00:43:33] I would just add a couple things. I agree with all of that kind of layout. There's also deists. Deists believe in a God, but don't believe in a supernatural or an intervening God. So Neil Armstrong, the first guy to walk on the moon, was a deist.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] I've been told that most of our founding fathers, like Thomas Jefferson and many of our founding fathers, and this is back in the 1700s, consider themselves Deists.

Randy Bell [00:43:58] Well, Thomas Jefferson certainly was a deist. He took the Bible and took out all the supernatural and that was kind of the Thomas Jefferson Bible.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] Basically what Jesus said.

Randy Bell [00:44:06] It's what Jesus said without the resurrection, without the virgin birth. That's kind of what he did. But there are gnostic atheists. They're rare, but they're 100% certain there is no God, which is absurd.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] That actually is. It is absurd because how do you know you can't prove a negative.

Randy Bell [00:44:30] So the extremes, the way I look at it, the pendulum swings from gnostic theists. I know that there's a God and I know it's my God and I know it's not your God.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] And your God's wrong.

Randy Bell [00:44:40] Yeah. And your God's wrong and my God's right. That's a gnostic theist. And then the other end of the pendulum is gnostic atheists, which, which I know there is no God. Or probably the literature and the articles more identify as the extremist anti theists. Those who are out destroy all religion. Those are kind of the polar opposites, which I'm not particularly interested in. Penn and Teller, he Was kind of against all religion, but he was so fun and he was so funny that, you know, I didn't really get that conclusion out of him. We were having a fun conversation, but. But that's. I think we've kind of laid it out there pretty well. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Okay, so you're. You're buying all these books, you're giving them all a fair shake.

Randy Bell [00:45:30] Yeah.

Dark Night of the Soul and Questioning God

John Dehlin [00:45:31] How did you have a dark night of the soul where you were really questioning Jesus or questioning God? You talked about Bart Ehrman. Like, Bart Ehrman. Many people kind of maybe sometimes in a different way, lump him in with. With some of the four horse, with these other four horsemen of the apocalypse. Because. Because it's Bart Ehrman that deconstructs the origins of the Bible and particularly the New Testament.

Randy Bell [00:45:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:55] And he leads a lot of people to basically conclude, well, the Bible's got as many problems as the Book of Mormon, if not more. And so like a David Bachavoy would. Would basically say once he deconstructed the Bible or once he deconstructed the Book of Mormon, it wasn't super hard to deconstruct the Bible. So talk about if Bart Ehrman was a part of your journey.

Randy Bell [00:46:15] Yeah. I read Misquoting Jesus. I thought Bart Ehrman was very. He's very intelligent. He's agnostic. He's not atheist. I think a lot of people, you know, point him to atheism. But he's. I've heard out of his own mouth, he's agnostic. His deconstruction of faith was over the good and evil question, not over the biblical transcript question. Now, what Bart Ehrman has said. I'm a quasi fan of Bart Ehrman. He said that it's silly to ever suggest that a man named Jesus didn't walk the planet. He's very definitive about that. There's plenty of evidence that a man named Jesus walked the planet.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] The historical Jesus, his thumbs up on

Randy Bell [00:47:01] the thumbs up on historical genius.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] And we've had him on Mormon stories, so we'll include a link to his episode. Art Ehrman. Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:47:07] Oh, my gosh, I missed that one.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:47:10] Check out your episode show notes for the Bart Ehman link.

Randy Bell [00:47:13] I'll make it easy for sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] He gave us one hour. We had to do like five of his books in one hour.

Randy Bell [00:47:18] Is that right?

John Dehlin [00:47:19] It was a whirlwind, but it was good. It's a classic.

Randy Bell [00:47:21] Oh, that is a classic. I gotta listen to that. Well, you know, he is very clear that the Bible was a copy of a copy of a copy. There are counterarguments to that. But he makes a good point where I don't buy this idea that you can spend 10 hours deconstructing Mormonism and then 10 seconds deconstructing the Bible. Is that even Bart Ehrman would agree. Anyone sensible would agree the Bible is a true ancient document.

Randy Bell [00:47:53] That's not in question here. That's in question with the Book of Mormon, but certainly not the Bible. And when you listen to the counterarguments, I'm happy to go in this direction if you want. They're also very compelling in terms of the fragments that they found and the fact that there's thousands upon thousands of copies and when they were reassembled, there's numerous portions of the Bible that Christians have identified as showing up out of nowhere in the third, third century or the fifth century, that there are Bibles you can buy that identify passages that are not considered legitimate. So the Christian theologians out of Yale, out of University of Chicago, out of Harvard, out of Berkeley, they're not dumb. They figured this stuff out, and they will identify the areas that are sketchy within the Bible.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] And you could also say that they're, you know, believe what you want. There was. There is a Palestine.

Randy Bell [00:48:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] There isn't. Was a Jerusalem right there. There is and was a Jewish people. There is and was a Roman Empire. You know, there was a Roman Empire. Like, clearly there's a historical basis for the. The New Testament and the Old Testament, at least to some degree. There was certainly a Jewish faith prior to 0ad or BCE or whatever you call it. Right. And so, yeah, unlike the Book of Mormon, there's no evidence of any Zarahemla or a Nephi or, you know, Waters of Mormon. There's this. That's just appears to all be fiction.

Carah Burrell [00:49:30] They found Nahum on a rock, though. So what are we doing here? Baptize me again.

Randy Bell [00:49:35] I think we've all messed up. Yeah, there is.

Carah Burrell [00:49:38] They got one. They got one on us.

Randy Bell [00:49:40] Well, the point I'm making is, is, and this is just a suggestion, but with Mormon stories, I hear people, you know, very elegantly and very. I'm riveted for 10 hours of their deconstruction of Mormonism, and then they get to Christianity and God and Jesus and they literally spend 10 seconds, maybe, you

John Dehlin [00:50:01] know, maybe that's how it is for many people.

Randy Bell [00:50:04] Well, I realize that, but you know what? If you're going to spend 10 hours on Mormonism and I want to see 100 hours on Christianity, it's a much Bigger topic. And there's some really brilliant people at the most prestigious universities around the world that are believers. And it's not the technical. Or not the technical. The academic term is ignorant dismissal. You can't make an ignorant dismissal of this stuff. It's a big robust area of research by the top academic institutions in the world. You can't ignorantly dismiss that in 10 seconds. I don't believe. At least I can't do it.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:50:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] All right. So you read all these books. Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Dennett, Dennett and even Ehrman.

Randy Bell [00:50:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] And what was that like for you? Did you have that dark night of the soul or not?

Randy Bell [00:51:05] No, it was a mix. Well, I thought Dawkins, I really kind of singled him out because his arguments were kind of 1980s. His arguments centered around a lot on Darwinism. So I'll get to that in a second if that's okay. But when you let me kind of finish. He started with Fred Hoyle in the 747 and then he had a bunch of anti religion rants which I just ignored because they weren't affirmative arguments. Then he went into Darwinism and Darwinism. I'm going to come to in a minute, but frankly, I believe in evolution. I'll just let you know.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] So, Billion year Earth.

Randy Bell [00:51:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] Of course humans, humans share a common ancestor with primates.

Randy Bell [00:51:48] Oh yeah. I went to the Rift Valley. I saw the fossils with my own eyes.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] So no global flood? No. All animals in the Noah's Ark.

Randy Bell [00:51:57] Well, let's take it one at a time with Noah's Ark. I think that was probably a metaphor. I think Adam and Eve are probably metaphors. The thing where I feel comfortable being a Christian and saying that is that Jesus talked in parables. I don't know that the Good Samaritan was a real dude walking on a real road. You know, that was a parable. And I think Jesus by sharing so many parables made it clear that these are just stories for a moral value. What's literal, what's not literal? Whether there's an Abraham or not, whether there's a Noah or not is really inconsequential to the moral value of what Jesus taught. So I don't get too wrapped up in the axle of those things. Maybe they're real, maybe they're not. Frankly, I don't care because Jesus taught clearly and used parables so readily. So I don't have a problem with any of that.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] And I'm going to Just channel my friend Jennifer that works with us. She, she's never been Mormon but almost converted to Mormonism. And she talks to me a lot about her frustrations with Mormonism. And one of the, her frustrations with Mormonism is it's its pension for literalism. Because you go to Episcopals, you know, Episcopalians, Jews, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics even.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] You'll, you'll, you'll get, they'll look at you funny. If you're trying to make everything literal, everything historical, they're like, that's, you're missing the whole point of religion as soon as you're trying to make everything literal. And, but, but Mormonism makes so many grandiose, you know, material and literalistic and fundamentalist. And I say that not in terms of a polygamous, but like a Christian fundamentalist claim, 6,000 year Earth, literal Adam and Eve, literal global flood. It gives you no wiggle room for any middle ground. And that's one of the main ways Mormonism spoils people for religion. And all I'm going to say is these sort of things you're saying about like who knows if there really was an Abraham or an Adam and Eve.

John Dehlin [00:54:04] That's like most Christian denominations these days. Yeah, it's Mormonism and maybe even evangelical Christianity that kind of spoils that pond. Is that true? Did I get that right?

Randy Bell [00:54:14] I think that's, I largely agree with you. I think there's lots of Mormons of different, along different spectrums. I just had dinner with a guy who goes, he lives here in Utah, he goes to church every Sunday. He's an atheist. He goes because that's where his kids go in the community and his job and he can't quit or he's going to lose his job and everybody in the neighborhood is going to hate him. So he still goes to church. So there's all kinds of people in the spectrum of Mormonism and, and a lot of them are quite aware of these issues. You know, on evangelical, it's kind of the same thing. I know evangelicals that are really wrapped up tight. I know some that are just flat out unpleasant and judgmental.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] The Bible's perfect.

Randy Bell [00:54:55] Every word in the Bible's perfect infallible Bible, all of that. Let's get real. The Bible is not a book. It's not two books. It's 66 books. And it didn't come around until 300 A.D. so you know, do you have to believe in the Bible to be a Christian? Well, for 300 years people believed in Jesus and they didn't even have a Bible. That's kind of more the spectrum I'm in. So, you know, and Bart Ehrman's right. It was copied and recopied. Now, he says, Bart Ehrman says himself that the vast majority were inconsequential changes, you know, losing a comma or, you know, this or that, of no consequence. But in some areas there were real consequences and in some areas there was real insertion later by, you know, Catholic monks. But that's been largely identified. So it's.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Yeah, but he also. I think we're missing one main thrust of his arguments. You line up the four gospels. Well, first of all, the Gospels weren't written by the people whose names are on them. Yeah, I think every thoughtful Christian is going to. Is aware, is going to admit that. But if you line up the Gospels chronologically based on when they were written, you see, and John Larsen talked about this in a recent episode we did with him on. Was on Mark, the Gospel of Mark, Gospel Mark. We'll add that in the show notes as well. What you find is that the story grows and becomes more fantastic. Jesus goes from sort of in the first written Gospel, which I think is Mark, but I'm not sure Jesus is more of a wise, you know, kind of, you know, sage.

Randy Bell [00:56:32] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] When you get to the end, he's like God himself. And that Bart Ehrman would say that each, each gospel, the story gets more fantastic, kind of like the fish gets bigger each time the story gets told.

Randy Bell [00:56:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] That's the other part of it. You see Jesus becoming more and more divine the later and later the account is. And that's fair to say.

Randy Bell [00:56:52] I think that's fair to say that I would, I would, would hasten to add, though, first of all, I'm still in this journey. And one big concept in my mind is I can go into court as an expert in real estate damage economics. I can't go into a court as an expert in theology. I'm a sideline expert. You're a sideline expert. Carah's a sideline expert. We're all looking at the experts like Bart Ehrman and others to see what these people who have really dedicated big swaths of their life to study this stuff. And it's kind of a battle of the experts. So one of the, you know, so I'm always looking at in that way.

Randy Bell [00:57:31] And on that particular issue, John, I'm still trying to sort that out, quite honestly. However, I will say that when I read a book called the Language of God by Francis Collins, do You know who he is? Francis Collins is MD and a PhD out of Yale, and he was the Director of Institutes of health in Washington, D.C. he controlled a $40 billion a year budget. He's the guy that Bill Clinton introduced in 2020 with the whole Human Genome Project.

Randy Bell [00:58:06] So he's a very powerful, very respected. He's been the Director of Institutes of Health through five administrations. So Democrats, Republicans, both love the guy. And I got this concept from Dr. Collins, and he said, you know, because he was.

Randy Bell [00:58:25] He is who he is, he's got this brilliance. And he was an atheist for decades, and then he converted to Christianity. And what he says on the question you just posed, which is a legitimate question, he says the Bible is the way he put it, there's enough. It's not everything. It's not all there perfectly, but there's enough to get a central theme. And in that regard, he was satisfied with that. So that's the best answer I got right now.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] That's fine. Okay, so you're studying all these books. Did you ever self identify, either internally or externally as an atheist or agnostic, or did you just never even hit that point?

Randy Bell [00:59:05] I would say that I hit a point of agnostic, just not knowing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] You're still kind of there.

Randy Bell [00:59:14] Well, sure, in a bit. Large part I am. I still got lots and lots of questions. I'm on a journey. Who knows where I'll be a year from now? But I've seen enough compelling evidence from people that are highly academically trained as my role as a sideline expert to feel that 51% of the evidence swings, you know, kind of the direction I'm going. 51 or more. So that's the best way I can put it.

Investigating New Faith Communities and Progressive Christianity

John Dehlin [00:59:42] Okay, so how did you. What did you start? Attending churches. Like, tell it. Talk us through chronologically, the best you can remember your journey into. Because. Because a lot of Mormons are like, we did it. Margi and I, we attended the Episcopal Church. And we're like, don't quite feel it. Okay. Methodist? Oh, Unitarian. No, not quite. Good community of Christ. And no offense to any of those traditions, they're all lovely traditions, right. In. In so many ways for us, more ethical, more evidence appreciating, more humane, less. Less bigoted, more inclusive faith traditions. But none of them spoke to us. For you, what was your journey? To find something that spoke to you?

Randy Bell [01:00:30] Yeah. My first church was a Buddhist monastery near my home. What's it called? I can't pronounce it. We'll find out if you like, but it's real close to where I live. And I started going there because they have a meditation room that everyone's welcome to. And I picked up on meditation in San Quentin. And then my cardiologist, she recommended meditation if you're into meditation. Sarah Lazar, out of Harvard Medical School, has published at least a dozen articles I've read on it. So I got into meditation and I would go to the Buddhist monastery to meditate.

Randy Bell [01:01:07] And then I have some friends who are Christian and they said, hey, we don't even go to church. We just have a home study. Would you like to come? I started going and having home, like Bibles say. We just each read a chapter and kind of talk about it. And you could say something crazy and you didn't have a pile on, you know. See, the other thing I want to say, John, some evangelicals are wrapped up pretty tight, but a lot of them are very, very cool, you know. And if you dare say, well, you know, you ought to feed the homeless, they pile on and say, you don't work your way into heaven or, you know, you shouldn't judge.

Randy Bell [01:01:37] And, well, you know, you should judge and you should judge righteously. And I judge righteously. I mean, there's obnoxious evangelicals and there's really cool evangelicals, there's cool Mormons, and there's Mormons that aren't so cool. There's Buddhists that are jerks, believe it or not. But most of them are really cool. Most people are cool. I learned that when I worked on the LA riots. I'm down in South Central. Most of the people in South Central are good, decent, hard working, honest, kind people that give you the shirt off their back. It's just a minority in each group that can give the group a bad name.

Randy Bell [01:02:10] So that was kind of the philosophy I had. I would go entertain anything and I was doing just that. I was going all over the place. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:19] So Bible studies.

Randy Bell [01:02:21] Yeah, I did the Bible studies and then I started Saddleback Church. Rick Warren's church is real close. And I had, through the years met so many families that were so cool and so likable and so grounded and their kids were doing well. I thought, you know, I got to check out Saddleback Church and I got to back up. When I was in Laguna beach,

Carah Burrell [01:02:44] there

Randy Bell [01:02:44] was a homeless man. Because Laguna beach has a lot of homeless people. Homeless man walked into the foyer and sat down. And I'll never forget when the stake president came out and saw him, the homeless man said something to him. And the stake president Just kept walking. And I thought, that's just really.

Randy Bell [01:03:00] Wow, you know, that's not cool. And then later, I started volunteering at the homeless shelter, and I was there to teach a class on goal setting. And I'm just sitting there, and it's a Sunday, and people are kind of coming in. It was both men and women who are coming to the class. And this one guy sitting there, and I said, how's your day going? He goes, oh, good. I went to church this morning. I said, oh, cool, because there's lots of churches in Laguna Beach. I said, where did you go to church? He said, I went to Saddleback. And I said, saddleback? Isn't that like 45 minutes from here?

Randy Bell [01:03:32] And he goes, yeah, they send a van around to pick us up. And I nearly fell over because here Saddleback is sending a van out to all the homeless shelters around to pick up people that can't donate a dime to them. If anything will be a financial.

Randy Bell [01:03:48] You know, I don't want to say the word burden, but you know what I mean? Cost. You know, let's be honest. And yet they're sending out vans to pick up homeless people to take them to Saddleback Church. And I sat there just dumbfounded that my church wasn't doing that. I mean, that's what Jesus taught. Give me a break.

Randy Bell [01:04:08] And I was just in shock. So I was very curious at this point about Saddleback Church. And I started going, and I just. I loved it. I mean, my wife could bring her dog and we could sit outside and they got free coffee, and, you know, the sermons were awesome. And they play Fender guitars on stage. I mean, it was. It was just a really good experience. It's a huge church. It's a mega church. But I really found it very spiritually uplifting. I really loved it.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] Don't they have something with study groups where you go to the big church, but you also have your little. What are those called?

Randy Bell [01:04:44] Small groups? Yeah, I joined a small group. That was cool.

John Dehlin [01:04:47] Do they help you find a small group?

Randy Bell [01:04:49] Yeah, there's a guy that coordinates it. He says, where do you live? And here's three names. Check them out. It's really mellow. It's like, if you fit in, you fit in. If you don't, you don't.

John Dehlin [01:04:59] And what do you do in the small group with these other couple individuals?

Randy Bell [01:05:03] You can do whatever you want, but typically, you watch a video and pause it, and then you kind of discuss or read the verses and, you know, you say a nice prayer and you become friends. With the people. I had them at my house, too. I really thought they were awesome.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:05:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:22] So did you get baptized into the Saddleback Church? Did they do that?

Randy Bell [01:05:27] I went to the pastor and I said, you know, I'm kind of leaping ahead because there's a lot of other religious things that I checked out.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] Don't skip over stuff that's important.

Randy Bell [01:05:34] I won't.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] Whatever's important to your journey.

Randy Bell [01:05:37] Yeah, I think I've hit most of them. Jewish, Islam.

John Dehlin [01:05:46] No, no, no. I'm saying in your Christian journey. So, like, church.

Randy Bell [01:05:49] Oh, other churches.

John Dehlin [01:05:50] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:05:50] There was a pastor I'd met down a smaller church. He was really cool. He's very proud that he started with nothing and got it up to 300 people. There were some churches in Laguna Beach. One of the churches has a lesbian minister that I thought was super cool. There's a lot of LGBT affirming churches. And one thing I want to pause right now because it just came in my mind. There were two reasons why I came on Mormon Stories after five years of talking to you about it. Number one is that there is a website out there I've never heard mentioned on mormon stories. It's gaychurch.org gaychurch.org and John's not going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. Put it on the.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] I'm just going to tell her.

Randy Bell [01:06:35] I'm not teasing you. I'm teasing you. Yeah. Gaychurch.org because I want to tell my LGBT friends and the community that if you don't feel welcome where you are, the Christian church wants you and needs you. And I think it's very important to get that message out that, yeah, there's some yahoos in Christianity. I get that. But most of the people I meet are lgbt. Not just tolerant, but affirming. You know, we'll open you and you can be part of that congregation at any level. And I just. That was one thing I felt very, very compelled I needed to. To share with. With. With your platform.

John Dehlin [01:07:17] There's a second.

Randy Bell [01:07:18] The second one is going to Boy Scouts, but you want me.

John Dehlin [01:07:22] Oh, no, no.

Randy Bell [01:07:23] Mention that.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Yeah, we'll say that later.

Randy Bell [01:07:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:25] Really quickly. Just in all fairness, Saddleback does not appear on gay church. Correct.

Randy Bell [01:07:30] I looked it up and it doesn't. And that's why I. I still have a lot of affection for Saddleback Church. They just started ordaining women, which I think is big progress and kind of a break from the Baptist Convention, but they are not gay affirming. Then. The other thing is, I could not Find their. I was sending them thousands of dollars and then I couldn't find their financials as being transparent. Maybe they are and I don't know about it. But.

Randy Bell [01:07:57] But those two issues. If I. Right now I'm kind of a non institutionalized Christian and once Covid blows over, I hope to find the church where I fit in. But it will be LGBT affirming, it will be on the gaychurch.org website and it will have totally transparent financials. Those are just my beliefs and my criteria for where I'll affiliate. But church can be at the beach with a burrito. It can be in the mountains. It can be anywhere you want it to be. There's no. The early Christians didn't have a cathedral, they didn't have a church. They met in people's homes, they hung out.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] Can you add burritochurch.com I already own the domain.

Carah Burrell [01:08:43] Have I not mentioned my. My religion? Taco Bell.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] Taco Bell.

Randy Bell [01:08:49] Meatless burritos.

Carah Burrell [01:08:51] Yeah. John doesn't want to be a cult leader, but I never said I didn't want to.

Randy Bell [01:08:54] That's awesome.

Carah Burrell [01:08:55] Anyway.

John Dehlin [01:08:56] Burritochurch.com Everybody just. Just kidding. Okay.

Randy Bell [01:09:00] Yeah. So right now I've been to Sean McCanny's church and I like to. I'm. Right now I'm wandering. You know, I'm not. All those who wander are lost. I'm kind of wandering.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] So tell us. Like, I want to hear details now because I want to hear how you should we start with God? Like. Yeah, okay. So is that the right place to be where we now. We now just kind of ask you how you put together beliefs in the different components of your faith or.

Randy Bell [01:09:33] Yeah, let's do it. But I want to give you a framework first. The way I did it is I had the egos, logos, pathos and duos. And then when it came to belief, I went. I had this simple little formula in my head. Abc. A's atheists or agnostic. B is believer, meaning I believe in God or you know, but without any going further than that. And then C is Christianity. So I kind of went abc and I started with A. And A was going and hitting and really looking at the best arguments of atheism, particularly from Dawkins. And I just did not find Dawkins arguments very compelling.

Randy Bell [01:10:12] I thought, and frankly, I've talked to people that were atheists and referred me to Dawkins. No longer are referring to Dawkins. The jig's kind of up. I think people are getting tired of that and atheists need to Bring a better game because Dawkins hasn't delivered in my mind.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] What about Sam Harris?

Randy Bell [01:10:32] Well, Harris I like a lot better because first of all, he went to ucla. And secondly, he's just a really bright guy and he's done his best to integrate spirituality and meditation, which is of course a Buddhist practice, but he doesn't look at it as a dualistic practice. As far as I understand. He looks at it more like a humanist or a naturalist kind of practice. I used to use his app for meditation, but, you know, you read his. When I read his books, he has little glimpses where he sounds kind of anti theist. And I'm turned off by anti theists. I think I live in a live and live world, my mind. And when people are. Start telling other groups that they shouldn't exist, I don't think that's the direction I want to go.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] Okay, so do maybe. Would you feel comfortable addressing how you have worked through some of the main reasons that some people turn to atheism or agnosticism, just not as a way to argue or debate, but just as a way to explain how maybe you've worked through some concerns that other people have not been able to work through?

Randy Bell [01:11:55] Well, I'm not down on being agnostic. I'm not even down on being atheists. I think when you come.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] When you say down on, you mean you're not.

Randy Bell [01:12:03] I'm not. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:12:04] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:12:04] I'm not derogatory towards.

John Dehlin [01:12:06] Yeah, I'm not saying you are. I'm more talking about how you resolved concerns that other people couldn't make. Couldn't make work. Does that make sense?

Carah Burrell [01:12:15] We couldn't start listing them. I can go through the ones in my head.

John Dehlin [01:12:18] Yeah, yeah.

Randy Bell [01:12:18] Oh, sure. Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:12:19] The, the concerns over the. The first one that comes to mind is you're talking about experts in their field, like Bart Ehrman, and we're kind of like the sideline people who are just kind of go, that sounds like you were saying that it's really hard to investigate and know these theological arguments. And we're kind of just taking the opinions of other people who have studied it throughout their lifetime. Is that kind of representation of what you're talking about with Bart Ehrman?

Randy Bell [01:12:42] Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, I got to admit to myself I'm not a theologian, so I've got to rely on people that have really studied this stuff. Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:12:49] So the first one that comes to mind is that God gave us, if God exists, He gave us a brain that understands rational thinking and he's asking us to act in a manner that's contrary to that rational thinking by saying that I need an expert to know whether or not he exists. Why can't he give every single creation of his the ability to rationally think through and come to the conclusion that he exists?

Randy Bell [01:13:12] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] We won't be arguing with you. We're just going to lay out the question.

Carah Burrell [01:13:17] That's the number one one.

Randy Bell [01:13:18] I totally get it. And I love you guys. I'm happy. I love this conversation and I love any conversation where people play nice and even with wildly diverse points of view. You know, Carah, the way I think, I'm the first to admit isn't how a lot of people think. Because I.

Carah Burrell [01:13:35] Tell me how you think. That's all I care about. Yeah, yeah.

Randy Bell [01:13:37] No, no. But I come from a legal background of debate and evidence and rules of evidence and burden of proof, all these things which may be another episode, but that's how I think. But according. This is another concept that comes From Francis Collins, Dr. Collins from Yale, that I just was talking about where he kind of addressed that. He says one thing that compelled him to go from atheism to deism and then Christianity was the realization that there seems to be almost a God gene and there seems to be an innate belief, regardless if you're in India or you're in Russia or you're in South America or the US Wherever you are.

Randy Bell [01:14:20] There seems to be something that draws 92% of the population towards believing in a God. And that's something that's like built and hardwired into our DNA. Now, I don't know that everybody finds that a compelling argument. I think it's got an I'm interested in it, but that's how he would answer that question.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] So the fact that it's so pervasive and ubiquitous for you is an evidence that there's something to it.

Randy Bell [01:14:43] It's an evidence for Dr. Collins. And I can't argue with him, I guess, is what I'm saying. That's how I think of it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:54] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:14:55] So it is. Nobody has to have all the legal strategy, thinking the weird way I think in place to deconstruct or construct the way I do. He's saying that people who are sheep herders in Palestine can figure this stuff out without all the mumbo jumbo kind

Carah Burrell [01:15:14] of stuff, but with a lot of contradictory ideas about God that people that. If in my mind, the way I think of it is that there is a creator then or a father in heaven, let's Say in Mormon terms, then he's a really bad father because he created everything in kind of a deist way. He made this earth spin and then he, he dipped out. And he's fine with all of his creation living in a completely contradictory things, believing things that hurt other people about him, them, whatever. And he's fine with a Bible that has fragments like you're mentioning earlier that we have to like pick apart and piece together what he says.

Randy Bell [01:15:49] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:15:49] And then the Bible has so many contradictions that go to the very foundations of some of the most evil things that people have used for or against,

John Dehlin [01:15:59] you know, justify, justify.

Carah Burrell [01:16:01] And it makes me think if there was a God then it's. He's kind of a, he's kind of mean. He's winning it. Hide and go seek. And he's also would be in prison for neglect.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] So how do you make sense of the, the. Yeah, the fact that the, the point of view that it's just too confusing and too hard to figure it all out and no one can come to a reasonable set of agreements.

Randy Bell [01:16:27] Yeah. I think though first of all, I have to say these are well articulated, real questions that make a lot of sense. So I, I just want to acknowledge that.

John Dehlin [01:16:40] Right.

Randy Bell [01:16:42] Yeah. And there were a couple issues in there. One is on the bad things that happen or God being a bad parent. The way I look at it from my weird career and world is every disaster I go to which horrific and take one off the list, I'll tell you the specifics. There's enormous amounts of hate and there's enormous amount of damage and even natural disasters. When I was talking about Hurricane Katrina and all the lives that were lost and I won't even describe what I saw and heard about, but horrific stuff. But what I've always noticed is that the human spirit is all. And love is always bigger than that.

Randy Bell [01:17:37] So if you put hate at a 5, love will come out at a 6 or a 7. If you put hate at a 10, love will come out at a 12. There's always more in the way of human compassion. People that will take their shirt off their back to save someone else. People that will literally risk their lives to help someone else. Just like happened to me in Palestine or in. Yeah, in Israel where these Islam guys, you know, Muslim guys come out and literally cover the my body with theirs while machine guns go on fire. I find that very, very inspiring that no matter how ugly, how bad, how horrific it is, love always wins. Love is always bigger. And that's kind of how I think about it, right or wrong. That's how I think about it.

John Dehlin [01:18:22] And you're equating love with God. Like you're saying somehow human expressions of love for you become evidence of some type of divine being or creator.

Randy Bell [01:18:35] I think it's both. I think both parties need some credit for that. You know, both the humans that had the love and the God that created them. And I think that. I think that, you know, the Bible says there's a lot of things that are contradictory. You know, we could spend, you know, 10 episodes on that. But the things that come through loud and clear, Jesus only said one thing, was number one one thing, love God. Which means just say thank you and love your neighbor and love yourself. There's a trilogy there of loving God, loving your neighbor, loving yourself.

Randy Bell [01:19:11] And the Bible says God is love. And yeah, I think when there's love, I don't care if it's from an atheist. I see that as a really beautiful, positive thing. And I think that our creator, whether recognized or not, is behind that. That's how I kind of piece it together. Does that make any sense?

Carah Burrell [01:19:34] Yeah, that absolutely does. The.

Randy Bell [01:19:35] Oh, good.

Carah Burrell [01:19:36] Yeah. When you see good in people, that that is inspired from a creator who loved first and loves all and is all loving, and that that is all kind of piecing everybody back to one central figure and a deity that you assign godhood to. That's kind of what I hear you saying.

Randy Bell [01:19:55] Yeah. And one other thing you said, Karen, that really I thought was a wonderful point was, you're right. I go to India and I see the monkey God and I go, there's all kinds of different gods. And I totally get that. I think that human beings are doing their best with our three and a half pound brains to explain something that's really shrouded in mystery and really can't be explained. So I really don't vibe with people that got it all figured out. I think it's just a really big issue. And in quantum mechanics, why is it that when you take an electron over here and it's all going clockwise, and then you separate one of the electrons and take it 700 miles away?

Randy Bell [01:20:44] And I'm talking about a real scientific experiment. Experiment. And then you reverse polarity on the one electron, and then 700 miles away, it immediately reverses polarity? That force in between is a intelligent, creative force that we're all struggling to figure out at some kind of level.

Randy Bell [01:21:04] And so the more I study sciences and natural sciences and quantum mechanics, the more it reconciles more and more with this idea of a fourth dimension. It was what's called in science with what religion calls a spiritual dimension.

Randy Bell [01:21:19] And so I'm never going to mock or put down anybody who's trying to take on these big questions. And I don't care if they call God a monkey God or not. I believe in my God just like they believe in theirs, and I respect them. So that's the best kind of download of that question I can. I can kind of give you in a short amount of time.

Carah Burrell [01:21:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] What about. What about when people read the Bible and they find genocide? They find God killing men, women, and children. They find justifications for slavery.

Randy Bell [01:21:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:58] They find anti LGBT interpretation sometimes, you know, racism, misogyny, homophobia, blah, blah, blah. Just a genocidal, let us have our

Carah Burrell [01:22:08] period in the tent Bible. Come on. Basic stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] Yeah, we're diet codes. How do you make. If somebody just says, I don't know about a God, but the Bible is just a reprehensible example of morality, and if that's God, especially the God of the Old Testament, that's a nonstarter, what do you do with that?

Randy Bell [01:22:30] Well, those are the big questions I've been kind of dealing with for the last couple of years. And I got one friend in particular who hits me up with all of that. He's compiled it all into one document. And let's break it apart a little bit on lgbt.

Randy Bell [01:22:47] I sat down with the Bible one night, and a lot of Mormons still, I don't know that they know this, but there's a red letter version of the Bible where all of Jesus words are unread. And in Christianity, that's usually given prominence over other letters or other words or verses.

Randy Bell [01:23:02] So starting with lgbt, I sat down with the Bible one night and I said, you know what? If I see Jesus saying something against the LGBT community, I think I'm out. So let's see what happens. And I started reading the red letters and I made it from one end to the other. And Jesus never spoke a single word about or against the LGBT community in any way, shape or form.

John Dehlin [01:23:27] Ironically, neither did Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon, ironically. Or the Doctrine of Covenants.

Randy Bell [01:23:32] Well, that's fine, but there are other issues there. We could come back. I get your point.

Carah Burrell [01:23:36] Yeah, they were pro, non traditional family structure, if I do remember. Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:23:39] Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm just trying to say there's even Mormonism. Even Mormon scripture does not have justification for homophobia. That's all I'm saying.

Randy Bell [01:23:49] Well, at this point in my journey I kind of. Mormonism's in the rearview. I know, I know, but I get your point. I get your.

John Dehlin [01:23:54] It's just for the, the believing Mormons watching, I'm asking you to do the same thing with your scriptures that Randy you did with the New Testament.

Randy Bell [01:24:00] Fair enough, fair enough. But what I came away with, that and why I think gaychurch.org makes a lot of sense, is that if this was something really reprehensible or as evil as some people make it out to be, Jesus would have said something about it. He said a lot of things about a lot of things, but he didn't say a word about it. And he also gave us one singular number, one. Love God. Love your neighbor, love yourself. Well, my neighbor's gay. He didn't have any carve out clauses. He didn't have any exceptions to the rule. My neighbor might be incarcerated, my neighbor might be Hindu.

Randy Bell [01:24:41] It doesn't matter. My job as a Christian is to love that person, try to understand them and help them out and treat them just as I would treat my own kids, just as I treat myself the best I can.

Randy Bell [01:24:54] That's my religion is that trilogy. There's more to my religion, but that's the core. So in getting to the rest of your question, John, with that kind of magnifying glass, if it doesn't emulate love, if I don't see the love of God, the love of fellow humans, the love of myself and self care, then I'm very comfortable not paying a lot of attention to it. And Leviticus says some crazy things, but I'm not supposed to eat shellfish according to Leviticus. I don't believe that. I don't know anybody that believes that. So obviously people are comfortable dismissing things that don't make sense. But better than that, the lens that Jesus gave himself with one number one, with that trilogy of love, that's the magnifying glass I go through the whole thing with.

John Dehlin [01:25:42] So when God in the Old Testament tells Israelites to kill men, women and children and animals, not buying it.

Randy Bell [01:25:50] It's a metaphor for something. Or it's just somebody, you know. Look, people have been blaming God for their bad behavior for centuries, millennia. So maybe somebody did something horrible and blamed God for it and wrote it down in a book that got canonized in the Bible. I really don't have the theological background to tell you what it is. All I know is I feel very comfortable dismissing it.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] So then what? Okay, so then scripture must mean something different, because in Mormonism, a literalistic sort of fundamentalist Religion, as far as. As far as orthodoxy or, or theology goes, you know, we're all taught God speaks to prophets, and prophets write what God says down in Scripture. So, like, we're not left the liberty to say, oh, it's metaphor, but so you feel comfortable doing that with the Bible?

Randy Bell [01:26:45] I feel more than comfortable. And a great teacher I once had, you might have heard of him. His name is John Dehlin taught me a scripture in Luke 17. Do you remember that? Where lo here, where is the scribes and Pharisees? Come to Jesus Christ. Where's the kingdom of God? And is it low here and low there? And Jesus says, no, no, no, it's within you. Jesus sounds very Buddhist. If you actually listen to what Jesus says, he says, look inside of you. The messages that we need from God in my mind are inside of us, not out there. And Jesus said it himself. I'll go with that.

Core Beliefs: Love, Scripture, and Spiritual Framework

John Dehlin [01:27:21] So you're basically saying that your internal spiritual or religious impulses trump scripture, trump the Bible, possibly.

Randy Bell [01:27:34] I wouldn't quite put myself at that level. I would say I put Jesus at the level where he says, look at everything through the lens of loving God, loving your neighbor, loving your others, and anything else I read in the Bible, I will look through that lens. But he also said, and it goes with me, if I got hatred, I'm not going to look inside of myself and say, well, that's the way to go. You know, I've got to look at myself through that number one lens. So Jesus is, you know, numero uno. And I look at everything just through that very simple, straightforward, but very powerful lens.

John Dehlin [01:28:10] But you seemed hesitant to confirm what I think is pretty clear that you said. You said that if you find something in the Bible that doesn't feel loving or kind or Christlike, that doesn't jive with your sense of kindness, you go with the kingdom of God within which is your conscience and judgment over what's written in the Bible.

Randy Bell [01:28:34] Well, let me tell you, I have a three, eight three model. The three is loving God, loving your neighbor, loving yourself. We kind of covered that. Then looking at loving Others, Jesus identified 7 and 8 would be LGBT, but specifically Jesus. I got a little list here. I'll write it. Check it out.

Randy Bell [01:28:54] Jesus said, children, you know, you got to put Jesus in the time frame he was in. The Roman Empire was going off. They were brutal and horrific, and children were considered throwaway. There was a letter from. As I was reading all these books, there was a letter that just stuck in my mind where a Roman soldier Wrote home to his wife and said, if it's a boy, send her into the best schools. If it's a girl, throw her away. You know, that's the brutality of society. When Jesus was walking the planet and he reversed course on that entirely and said, bring the little children, suffer them not to come unto me.

Randy Bell [01:29:31] And he said, whoever offends them, it's better a millstone be hung around their neck. Jesus was counterculture to the max when it came to protecting children. That's why I resonate so strongly with Sam Young's cause, because it's about the kids and hands off the kids, both with verbal abuse, overt covert abuse. Let the kids grow up and enjoy their childhoods. Okay, so that was number one.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] That's children.

Randy Bell [01:29:56] Okay. Then Jesus was famous for saying, if I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was hungry, you gave me meat, I was naked, you clothed me. Jesus obviously had profound concern for the homeless, for those who are poverty stricken.

Randy Bell [01:30:13] And that's where I enjoy so much, going into the homeless shelters. Again, I'm not Mother Teresa, but I do make an effort. And that is who Jesus told us and asked us the question, are you really helping these marginalized people because they're having a hard time again? In his culture, when the Romans were doing their thing, if you were poor or starving, who cared? You know, you're just tossed to the side.

Randy Bell [01:30:43] The next one is prison. You know, Jesus, I was in prison and you visited me. And that's why I love going back to prison, because I keep having. I do it frankly, kind of for selfish reasons, because I get so much out of my visits. The inmates hopefully get something out of the visits. But that's the stuff Jesus is really teaching. That's the essence of what he's teaching. I don't think it gets really complicated.

John Dehlin [01:31:11] Okay. Children, homeless, prison.

Randy Bell [01:31:14] The next one was race. He said, take the gospel. He kind of rolled it out in a roll out. But he never said. Jesus never said anything that justified racism or priesthood just for everyone but the blacks. Jesus made it clear through the story of the Good Samaritan to, to be kind and, and respect everybody as brothers and sisters, you know, regardless of, of race.

John Dehlin [01:31:41] Some people, I think, who are kind of into the Bible are going to maybe call you on that one and say that there were people that he said he came to preach to and there were other races or cultures of people, publicans or whatever, I don't know, Gentiles, basically, Jews and Gentiles, where he's like, yeah, I'm not preaching to them right now. They would say that there was or in the Old Testament there's a real clear vibe of God's chosen people, which were the Jews. Right. And then people that weren't chosen, which is Philistines or you know, I don't know, Babylonians or whatever. Yeah, but some would say, come on, the Bible's racist. Including condoning slavery.

Randy Bell [01:32:23] Well, the slavery is another issue we come back to. But on the race issue I drilled down into that because my buddy from byu, he sent me that as well. And what I think Jesus, first of all, Jesus had kind of a sense of humor. But the way I read those verses and I don't have them in front of me, but basically he was toying with the woman and saying I'm not really sent to you. And then she said something like, well, even the dogs have crumbs to eat that fall off the table. And then he went ahead and blessed her. So I think it was more of a teaching lesson for everyone where he kind of set it up like I'm not going to do it. And then he did. The bottom line is he did reach out to that woman in that particular.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] So in your reading of the Bible, God isn't saving his blessings or his teachings or Jesus for certain select elite groups of people and leaving out other groups of people or you know, making them second class citizens. That's not how you read the Bible.

Randy Bell [01:33:24] The way I read the disciples charge at the end is he told going, you know, he said spread the gospel to everyone. I didn't see any carve out clauses. So yeah, there might have been a rollout and there was that verse that where he ultimately did help the lady, I think for teaching reasons. And maybe there's more. If there's something I'm missing, I'm happy to look at it. As I always say, I may be somewhere else in a year. But as I went through those verses, I think Jesus message is very, very clear that love everyone. It couldn't be clearer than that.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] Okay, so that's how you view the Bible and Jesus. Okay.

Randy Bell [01:34:03] And then the sick and disabled. I was. The Jesus brilliance. And let's pause for a minute and point out Jesus was so profound in what he taught, he split time in half. We measure everything from before Christ and after Christ. I know we've given it new names, but that's a pretty powerful message. So it doesn't make sense that Bart Ehrman taking his points on steroids that the Bible is just such a mess. You can't get Anything out of it. And yet Bill Maher says, while he's an atheist, that Jesus, he can't find a more profound religious or philosopher of any kind more than Jesus Christ.

Randy Bell [01:34:49] He goes on to say, it's a shame that Christians don't follow him. And I kind of agree with him in part on that. But you can't have your cake and eat it too and say the Bible's a mess. And yet Jesus messages came through so brilliantly that it split time in half. And Bill Maher, an intelligent atheist, you know, has that to say about him. It's one of the, you know, you can't have it both. So I think enough of the Bible came through that the messages came clear.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] And so sick and disabled, you're saying what? Visit the sick and.

Randy Bell [01:35:24] Yeah, visit the sick. I was sick and you visited me, I think is what it says. I mean, this is all from, from Matthew 25, Sermon on the Mount. Yeah. And it's a beautiful passage. What's intriguing to me is it wasn't even clear when Jesus is talking to these people that these people even knew who Jesus was. And he said, when did we ever do these things to you? And it's like, well, when you do it to the least of these my brethren, you do it to me. That's why I think God ultimately cast a very wide net over loving people. I know some evangelical extremists will take issue with that, but that's how I read this, is that God is very generous.

Randy Bell [01:36:04] I was a stranger and you welcomed me. So what can we do to always make sure people feel welcome? And then women, I mean, that was profound. In Jesus time, you think? While this battle has not been won yet, at least in my mind, I think women need a more elevated role everywhere. My cardiologist is a woman and I didn't even mention when I was a kid, I had open heart surgery. My cardiologist then was a woman and my flight instructor was a woman. The women I really depend on for my life are women. I've never had this hang up in my head, but in Jesus time, women.

Randy Bell [01:36:42] You didn't even speak to them. You didn't even speak to them. So when he spoke to that woman at the well and other stories, Jesus obviously shattered that brutal Romanistic Jewish empire thinking and made women what they should be, highly respected. And I think Jesus taught us these principles 2000 years ago, but we're still having trouble catching on to some of the stuff today.

John Dehlin [01:37:10] And John Larsen talks about that in our recent episode with him in The Gospel of Mark, how it appears. Well, it's indisputable that Jesus appears to women according to the Bible, at least one of the books of the Bible, maybe two. The women are the first people that Jesus appears to after his resurrection. It's clear that he was very close with several women. It's even possible that some of his apostles or disciples were women and that subsequent church leaders kind of changed the names and the characters to be masculine. So there's a. There's, there's some really good stuff on, on women having a much even more prominent role in Jesus's life than what many of us are led to believe as Christians. But what do you make of Paul's verse in the Bible that women should stay quiet in the church? Some mention that as a problem.

Randy Bell [01:38:04] Yeah, I've read that verse a few times. I don't like it. And I kind of chalk it up to does this pass the love God, love your neighbor, love yourself rule? And I don't think it really does. Maybe it was a cultural thing back then. Maybe he thought he was being progressive. But I.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] So for you, Scripture can be wrong.

Randy Bell [01:38:22] I don't believe. Yeah, yeah, sure. The Bible I don't believe is infallible. I think it's authoritative. I think it's inspired, but I don't think it's infallible. And if it doesn't pass the love God, love yourself, love your neighbor,

Carah Burrell [01:38:40] I

Randy Bell [01:38:40] don't have any problem kind of putting aside, I think God and Jesus or Jesus himself made it clear what the priority is.

Carah Burrell [01:38:49] Question.

Randy Bell [01:38:49] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:38:51] May I ask. So I really. I'm picking up what you're putting down, that, that the, the God that is. I always try to go back to the nature of God, and I think everyone has a type of DIY God in their head of them kind of ascribing what their highest values are. And whether you want to call it like projecting or if that's literally what God really is. And I just don't know. But I want to. I want to keep digging here of the type of God that you're describing here. And I really like that idea about, you know, those, those tenants. But to me, it.

Carah Burrell [01:39:23] I just want to ask. John was mentioning all of the problems and the, the genocides and there's so many things that have been used authoritative Lee, as a bludgeon to hurt so many people with in the Bible. It feels like the God you're describing, it would be better for his reputation to never have anything to do with the Bible that he could have written a much better book for. An instruction book for humanity that if that Jesus exists, that I would love. I would love for that Jesus to exist.

Carah Burrell [01:39:57] Why would he allow so many wrong things to be not only said in his name that he said, but then used for so many years without any kind of course correction that, hey guys, you got this wrong. It was kind of a one time. I'm going to come down to earth 2,000 years ago. This is my gospel and I'm going to let people tweak it. I'm going to let people use it for monetary gain.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] Right.

Carah Burrell [01:40:16] I'm going to let people. The Old Testament is just. There's a book by one of my favorite authors, Dan Barker. Have you read his books?

Randy Bell [01:40:25] I've heard his name. I read his books.

Carah Burrell [01:40:27] He has some great books. He's a former pastor, minister as well. He has a book called God the Most Evil Character in All of Fiction I think is a book and it's like that big. And it's literally every single.

John Dehlin [01:40:40] Let's add that to the show notes.

Carah Burrell [01:40:41] Yeah, it's literally. He went through the entire Bible and he wrote every single, single one where God wants us to know his character. And it's nine out of 10. It's some really horrific passages. And so my question to you is, how do you. If that God does exist, why does it need to be like Jesus Christ? Why can't you live those principles outside of assigning an actual deity to. To this person who possibly lived 2,000 years ago named Jesus the Walker in the Middle East?

Randy Bell [01:41:10] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:41:10] Can you live those principles without having to call yourself a Christian because of. There's so many things that. That God, to me, if that God exists, he is therefore an evil God because he allows so much to be done in his name that he hasn't corrected. So.

John Dehlin [01:41:25] And I just want. I want to have you separate. I heard you ask at least two. Two questions. One is, can you be moral and ethical without God or without the Bible? But then why did God allow the Bible to be so effed up if you're. I mean, I was going to say in a different way to ask the same question. I was going to say, man, it sounds like you're a buffet Christian. Like, you take the stuff you like and you leave the stuff you don't. And I know a lot of evangelical Christians, for example, that would just say, that's not Christianity, brother. You're picking and choosing. You're more making God after your own image than you are.

Carah Burrell [01:41:55] I'll fight anyone who says that they, they're not a buffet Christian or whatever. I think everyone has a DIY guy.

John Dehlin [01:41:59] I know. Yeah, I just wanted Randy to be able to, to, yeah, just, you know, from his perspective. Sounds like you're picking and choosing.

Randy Bell [01:42:07] Well, I, I, I am picking and choosing. I own that. But I would say I'm picking and choosing with the number one lens that Jesus himself identified as number one and he specifically said number one. So yeah, I'm picking and choosing through a 2,000 year old book that has a profound wisdom intermixed with some things that just have you shaking your head. Shaking my head at least.

Randy Bell [01:42:33] So how do you sort it out? You just go to number one. And I would dispute any Christian that says that they're living every bit of it because there are areas that are clearly contradictory. So give me a break, let's get real here.

Randy Bell [01:42:46] So, but like I say, like Dr. Collins says, there's enough here, at least in my mind. And clearly, you know, some of the stuff that's crazy is crazy. Call it crazy and some of it's a metaphor, who cares? The real message here is, you know, love God, love your neighbor, love yourself, care for these people in marginalized society, respect women and respect children. And just that's the message, that's the religion. And I don't think it gets horribly more complicated than that. And I would, I mean, you want to get me into a courtroom? Sure. I'll debate these evangelicals all day long that take these extreme positions because give me a break.

Randy Bell [01:43:26] It takes you 15 minutes to find two verses in the Bible that contradict each other. And it gets silly with some of the somersaults to reconcile that. I bypass that and say there's 66 books in the Bible here and I don't have any problems saying I'm fine with 65 if I need to take one out. That was a man made decision. I think it's inspired. But maybe I'm overstating my point a little bit, but give me a break.

John Dehlin [01:43:56] Another question I have, but I think

Carah Burrell [01:43:58] Carah had another question I want to make sure. Maybe I need to restate my question a little bit better. Has more to do with you. In your view, Jesus is the ultimate moral authority on what to do, how to live your life by like loving God, loving your neighbor. But in my estimation, a God would not want to be even associated with the things that are in the Bible. And I can't, I cannot view Jesus, no matter how many good things he taught, I can't view him as a moral person, let alone a moral deity that I should worship and attribute God to because it would be better for him to never even have any association with the Bible. Does that make sense?

Randy Bell [01:44:37] I think you're saying, and I've never heard it expressed that way. I think you make some interesting points. I think if you break it down, the New Testament is a lot less problematic than the Old Testament. Are we agreeing on that?

Carah Burrell [01:44:55] But I studied the New Testament. I used to cherry pick a lot of the beautiful passages in the similar way. But I still think that an argument can be made just from the New Testament alone or just from the Book of Mormon alone. If you single out any kind of theology that separates God. It's not a moral deity to me, that gives people bad information and expects them to follow it with the brains that they created in us. You following me?

Randy Bell [01:45:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:45:25] And then expects for us to decipher fact from fiction with. Because again, I don't believe in free will. Sorry, everyone, but in a way that. Then there's a final test that we don't even know that we're taking that will separate us from our creator with devastating consequences. So just on the. For eternity. Yeah. So just based on the theology of the New Testament alone and the system set up by God, like God sacrificing himself to himself to create a loophole, to like forge a system, forge a path out of a loophole that he created, like that theology. I'd love for you to speak to your belief in like a little crucifixion and resurrection in a second as well, but.

Carah Burrell [01:46:04] Yeah, all I'm trying to say is just from a New Testament perspective, I still think that it's, it's too morally abhorrent of the God that, that, that Jesus is asking us to worship. I can't, I can't remedy that.

Randy Bell [01:46:15] Well, I, I mean, I got your point much better with the Old Testament, but on the New Testament, you know, again, I look at the red letters and give priority to them.

John Dehlin [01:46:27] What Jesus said.

Randy Bell [01:46:28] Yeah, what Jesus said directly, or at least it's attributed to Jesus directly from the stuff I've been through. That's the really Give me a break kind of stuff, was almost entirely from the Old Testament. But maybe you could refresh my memory or maybe I could go back and look again what was in the New Testament. Because I don't think the New Testament is. I wouldn't use the word abhorrent. I can't think off. Can you think of something abhorrent in the New Testament?

Carah Burrell [01:46:57] Give me a Second, I'll come back to it. What I was just trying to say is more of the system create. If we're. If God has designed a system in my mind that he wants us to learn from animal sacrifice and blood atonement, that to me, I use the word. I would use the word abhorrent of that's, that's a moral system that he's trying to train us and teach us that that's what he cares about and he values is blood sacrifice.

John Dehlin [01:47:20] And that's kind of the Jewish way. Christ transcended that.

Carah Burrell [01:47:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] So, yeah, that's Old Testament. And I. And I think even though atonement theology that Mormonism passed on to us, there's a lot of Christians that say that whole Jesus had to suffer X, Y and Z to balance all the sin. There's a lot of Christians that don't buy that theology. So some of that, yeah, atonement theology

Carah Burrell [01:47:42] is super fascinating, but that's what we'll have to do. I'm just saying, you don't be here all day.

John Dehlin [01:47:46] Yeah, I mean, I hear what Randy's saying is if you focus on the red letters, which is what Jesus actually said, Randy's not finding a lot that's abhorrent there. And that's the answer I heard from Randy.

Randy Bell [01:47:57] That's part of it. And then on the. You're right. In Christianity, I don't hear much about and certainly nothing like the Mormon theology on the atonement. What I hear more about is, is the death. And more importantly, the number one thing I hear about that's more evidence based is the resurrection. And there's a. Let me see, there's a book that, oh, gee, the Case for Christ is by Lee Strobel. He came out of Yale Law School. He puts together kind of a loss, kind of a courtroom case with the evidence for and against the resurrection that I found pretty compelling. I found parts of what he said brilliant.

Randy Bell [01:48:44] And to me, it comes down to the resurrection. And there's two things. One is documents of antiquity. The Bible, whether anybody believes it or likes it or not, would pass in my mind the legal rules of evidence. It would be admissible in court as a document of antiquity. So it passes that test. And the other thing that gets into rules of evidence are eyewitnesses. And you got. Well, you guys can ask yourselves any questions you want. But for me, I ask myself the question, why would these people who are eyewitnesses to the supposed resurrection march off knowing that the Romans are going to feed him to lions And Romans were brutal.

Randy Bell [01:49:30] You know, they must have seen something. Now, you know, the counter argument is, well, people flew jets into the World Trade Center. I mean, I worked on that case. But Lee Strobel makes a really strong argument that downwind, the people downwind of these miracles tend to be more wrapped up into the fanaticism of beliefs, whereas those who are eyewitnesses, if they didn't actually see it or it was a hoax, they wouldn't march off to their deaths. So there's something, whether ultimately people find it compelling or not, I think the argument is strong that there's something there in terms of the eyewitnesses and the people that said they saw the resurrection because they really put their money where their mouth was.

Randy Bell [01:50:14] And that was, I thought, pretty compelling evidence. Lee Strobel does a much more masterful job of laying out the evidence. So I'm trying to paraphrase, but those are the kinds of things I'm going to, to research these kinds of questions.

John Dehlin [01:50:29] When we talk about the Jefferson Bible and the red letters being Jesus words, what Jefferson leaves out are the miracles. So the healing of the blind, healing of the lepers, the literal resurrection where Jesus, his body is resurrected with the spirit, you know, the, the turning the water into wine, the walking on water, what do you make? You know, and we would all say, nobody's doing that these days and nobody seemed to do it before. So what do you make of the miracles? Do you kind of throw them out as being kind of outside the red letters, or are you on the side of tending to believe that all those kind of supernatural, fantastical things happened, even though there isn't a lot of that, by some people's account, going on today?

Randy Bell [01:51:20] Well, I love the fact that Jesus's first miracle was turning water into wine.

John Dehlin [01:51:26] Because you like wine.

Randy Bell [01:51:27] Sure, if it's good enough for Jesus, good enough for me. The miracles. That's a good question, John. I hadn't thought of that. I probably want to just say, let me think about that and get back to you. But I don't have a particular problem with Jesus doing miracles. And I don't know that I've had some things that might be classified as miracles, but I've talked to many people that have feel strongly they've seen bona fide miracles. So I think there's. The science world calls it translogical and the religious world calls it supernatural. To me, they're the same thing. There are things that do happen, even according to science, that cannot be explained logically, and science admits that.

Randy Bell [01:52:13] And Religion certainly espouses that as well. So I think that there are miracles. I don't think that God is as intervening as some people think he should be or she should be. I don't know that God is necessarily a gender, creative, intelligent force. But that being said, that's the best answer I've got as I sit here.

John Dehlin [01:52:37] Okay, so you tend to think that there are miracles. You're okay if you find out that Jesus performed miracles?

Randy Bell [01:52:46] Well, yeah, and Dr. Collins says that. He says that God or Jesus is not necessarily intervenes a lot. He can, but he doesn't. A lot. But again, I've talked to people that have seen. They're not my stories to share, but I've talked to people that claim miracles. I don't have any reason to disbelieve them.

John Dehlin [01:53:10] Do you have a theology for why God would choose not to intervene and heal?

Randy Bell [01:53:18] I remember we were having lunch, you and me, John, once, and you said, you know, you look at the picture of the earth and its, and then you see it in the solar system and goes back, and you see our solar system part of the universe, and it goes back, and then we just become a barely negligible dot. And I think the same principle that you taught me applies to that question. I think our time on Earth is remarkably short relative to the eternities. And I think we're here for a fascinating test that's not always very powerful, pleasant, and it's very, very messy. But that's kind of my best answer on that one, I think.

Randy Bell [01:53:59] I don't think I love life. I loved your metaphor. You said in another podcast the other day where, you know, religion, you know, some people consider it kind of seasoning on life, but you live life, you enjoy life. That's kind of how I see it. I mean, I'm, you know, I enjoy going and exploring and traveling and, you know, doing lots of stuff. And religion is kind of a seasoning that. That makes it interesting as kind of an investment in the future kind of thing.

John Dehlin [01:54:26] Okay. All right. So you've got the three. The low threes.

Randy Bell [01:54:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] And I'm really. Of course, we thrive in the low threes here on Mormon Stories. We thrive on highlighting the low threes here on Mormon Stories. Podcast.

Randy Bell [01:54:43] Well, you know, I know I just

Carah Burrell [01:54:45] read it and I was like, here we go.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] You just woke up. Carah was napping.

Carah Burrell [01:54:50] No, Carah's.

John Dehlin [01:54:51] I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Carah Burrell [01:54:52] It's my favorite Mormon stories of all time. I love talking about this kind of stuff. I love, love, love and thank you for being so authentic because I am, you know, girls and boys and non binary people at home. You're talking to a hardened atheist over here. But I want to have as many conversations with people to pick their brain of why they believe the things they believe. So this is definitely not easy to try to explain into a microphone some of your most deeply held beliefs. So thank you, Randy, for.

Randy Bell [01:55:20] Well, thanks, Karen. I'd love to pick your brain too because I know you got a lot of insights that I probably need and you know these concepts. Well, let me just say real quickly if I can, before I get to the low three, you know, the language of God. Francis Collins is where I got a lot of ideas that I have seen in his book believing. This guy was a, he's a PhD from Cornell and then he taught at Harvard. He taught physics. He was an atheist.

Randy Bell [01:55:49] Harvard physics professor. And now as Christian, his name is Michael Gillian. The case for a creator, Lee Strobel out of Yale Law and the person of interest is by Wallace out of ucla, where I went. So I want to kind of give a quick attribution. To the extent I've made sense, I would attribute to them. To the extent I don't make sense, I'd attribute it to me.

John Dehlin [01:56:10] We'll get all that in the show notes.

Randy Bell [01:56:12] Yeah, perfect. Okay. So yeah, this is what pissed Jesus off. And Jesus was very kind, very loving and he certainly pointed out the neglect that we have as a society. And by the way, that's an indictment. Not just we should all, whether we're atheists or agnostic or deist or theist, we should all, I think as a society, do way more than we're doing to help the marginalized. But what really upset Jesus, number one, was flipping tables, monetizing temples and flipping tables. I mean that story is iconic where Jesus went in and saw the temple being monetized and he was really raging mad. And that made me really respect Jesus as not just being kind of a hippie flower child. He was, you know, he, you know, he dished it out when he needed to. I thought that was cool. What do you think?

John Dehlin [01:57:09] Yeah. So you're not big on billion dollar churches, basically?

Randy Bell [01:57:16] Absolutely not the kind of church I think I'll ultimately land at.

John Dehlin [01:57:20] Or the prosperity mega churches.

Randy Bell [01:57:22] No, no, no, no, no, no. That wasn't, if anything, Jesus was not materialistic. Jesus was taught against materialism. And that kind of stuff is just absurd. And I would identify with a church where the pastor drives an old beat up red truck. In fact, I was Just having a conversation this morning with a pastor in Nashville. I had lunch with him recently and he's very proud of the fact 70% of the money that comes into his church, it's not a big church, it's a medium sized church. They've adopted a community in Haiti with Hurricane and 70% of the money and their labor goes out to help rebuild this community. That's cool. I can get behind that. But people that enrich the organization themselves, that's not the Jesus I'm digging.

John Dehlin [01:58:17] Okay. That's number one.

Randy Bell [01:58:19] Yeah. Number two is when it came to sex, what really set Jesus off were pedophiles and millstones around necks. And that's again, why, you know, Sam Young's work is so important. And I think that that's right on the money. I think we've kind of covered that.

John Dehlin [01:58:35] What about, what about. And I don't want to make sure this isn't three. Yeah. So what about churches that sort of demonize sex, demonize sexuality, infuse a lot of deep shame for things like masturbation or premarital sex. And again, we get a lot of people thinking that Mormon Stories is pro porn. That's not the way I see it. Or that we're pro premarital sex. That's an unfair characterization of what I think we're for. I've even had people go, john, I've stopped listening to Mormon stories because you seem to be for wanton, unrestrained sex with everything and anything. And they're talking to a guy who's had sex with one person his whole life.

Carah Burrell [01:59:20] Like the co host of Mormon Stories. Not only do we get accused of being an affair and we already did an entire episode about the slander we get, but just the fact that like, you see this guy over here? Look at this guy. Look at this. Look at his little like, button up, this guy. This one is like, for all these like libidinous affairs and porn and stuff. Not John Dehlin and not Carah Barrel either. Let me set that record straight.

John Dehlin [01:59:40] But, but, but religions have kind of built a business. Thank you, thank you, thank you for that.

Carah Burrell [01:59:45] Your button up is great, by the way.

John Dehlin [01:59:46] Thank you.

Carah Burrell [01:59:46] You look fabulous.

John Dehlin [01:59:47] But religions have built almost an entire business model around sexual shame. So it's not that we're for sexual irresponsibility, but do you have thoughts about that as you talk about sex?

Critiques of Religion and What Faith Gets Wrong

Randy Bell [01:59:59] Well, yeah, I do. In my sociological work unrelated to any of this, I came up with a long time ago, I didn't come up with it, but I Recognize body, mind and soul. That's holistic. That's very healthy. And money is great. I like money. Sex is great. I like sex. Power is great. I like having my little power trips here and there, I guess.

Randy Bell [02:00:27] But what corrupt people and corrupt organizations do is they take a holistic mind, body and soul where there's normal sexuality, and they extract out of that sex, power and money. That's where I, as a sociologist, the big red flags go up. That says something sketchy here if the emphasis is on sex, power and money. Now, getting to your question on sex, I think Jesus was clear. He was against being promiscuous. And there's Bible verses that are clear on that.

Randy Bell [02:00:59] That's just, you know. And obviously there's a target. A lot of Mormon. I never knew this in Mormonism, but Christianity, I think I learned it the first day. The word sin is an archery term that simply means you aimed your arrow at the target and the arrow fell short of the target. That's all it means. It doesn't mean you're bad. It doesn't mean you thrust into hell. It just means you fell short of your goal, but you had the goal.

Randy Bell [02:01:25] And I don't think that people make mistakes, including sexual mistakes. And it's not the end of the world either. But, yeah, should we avoid being promiscuous? That's probably a really good idea. I think we can probably all agree there.

Randy Bell [02:01:42] That's as far as I think it kind of goes. And people make mistakes and we don't need to browbeat them and shame them and put them through rigorous ordeals. That's a matter between them and God. And looking directly to God is far more sobering than worrying about what you have to say to a bishop because, you know, the bishop's doing stuff worse than, you know, others even did. So I'm kind of kidding around, but it's a whole new sobering experience. That's how I think about him.

Carah Burrell [02:02:12] Okay, follow up question.

Randy Bell [02:02:15] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:02:16] How do you define promiscuous? Just sleeping with as many people as two people consent to feeling like. Or how do you define promiscuous? And then what do you think are the downsides and what Jesus was trying to teach about promiscuity?

Randy Bell [02:02:31] I haven't really how I have defined it. I don't really have it. I think we all kind of know what that looks like. At least I think I do, but. And what was the second part of your question? I'm sorry?

Carah Burrell [02:02:43] What do you think Jesus was trying to teach by the downsides? Of promiscuity.

Randy Bell [02:02:47] Well, unwanted pregnancy is obviously a big one. You know, I met a lot of people in prison, and, you know, promiscuity and rape and all these illicit behaviors. I'm not saying. I think we all agree rape is horrible, but there are consequences with diseases and unwanted pregnancies. That is a completely secular idea that I think reasonable religion would agree with. I think we can all agree that sex is a good thing, but taken too far, becoming too promiscuous. Promo. There's too much. Promiscuity can become problematic too. I think there's a balance, and people have to figure that out.

Carah Burrell [02:03:31] Satisfying to me.

Randy Bell [02:03:32] Okay, we're green.

Carah Burrell [02:03:34] Yeah, we're fine. Boom. I mean, you're talking to the girl who was so Christian. I used to listen to those things about, you know, I still. Things that resonate to me, which would be objectifying people. As a Christian, I didn't like the idea of objectifying another person, Whether that was through porn or in a sexual relationship. You should be making love to somebody and not objectifying them, Whether you're married to them or you're watching them on a screen. And I've had to evolve on that a little bit because I have realized that some people want to be objectified, and some people, they don't have the same conditioning that I had that, you know, that.

Carah Burrell [02:04:10] That piece of duct tape that sticks on one other person. I. I used to believe that as a Christian. And I don't think I believe that quite as much anymore. I think that's more of a conditioning of a religious standpoint, that sex is always this binding thing and that you're always. You know what I'm talking about, John? Like that idea that. That two people, when they commit to have sex, those are the only two people you should ever have sex with. That there's a lot of, like, religious indoctrination and propaganda that is probably holding up those studies that say that that's the healthiest way to live a life.

Carah Burrell [02:04:41] And our listeners can inform me on what the science says now. So I just wanted to pick Randy's brain on what he thought on that subject.

Randy Bell [02:04:48] I ultimately think that John de Lynn's way of one beautiful woman for life is, you know, that's the ideal. That's the. I think that's just. He doesn't. That's just terrific. But people fall short, and it's not the end of the world, is what I'm saying. And I think the Christian path, you know, is a forgiving path, and where people do make mistakes, you dust yourself off and go on. That's how I see it.

Carah Burrell [02:05:15] Yeah, Right on.

Randy Bell [02:05:16] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:05:17] The John de Lynn's and the Aaron Burrells of the world, they gotta figure it out. One beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] I'm not a role model. I'm doing the best I can though. Thank you, all of you. What's your third low three?

Randy Bell [02:05:29] Yeah, my third. Well, Jesus was pretty down on his church leaders, specifically the scribes and Pharisees, where it was about power and that kind of thing. In other words, Jesus was pretty. He stood up to the bullies and the bad guys and he identified them and the pedophiles, the scribes and Pharisees and those who monetized religion. I mean, religions need to pay their bills, I get that. But to make it a path to enormous profit, that's not really what Jesus taught at all. And that's kind of the extent of my religion. The top three.

John Dehlin [02:06:13] God, neighbor and yourself. Unconditional love.

Randy Bell [02:06:16] Yeah. And then the eight children, homeless.

John Dehlin [02:06:19] Children homeless, in poverty, prison, race being for all races, anti bigotry, racial bigotry, for the sick and disabled, for strangers, for women, for lgbt. And then what pisses God off?

Randy Bell [02:06:34] Yeah, monetizing religion. Pedophiles and church leaders, scribes and Pharisees.

John Dehlin [02:06:40] Kind of religious hypocrisy and abuse of power.

Randy Bell [02:06:44] Sure, sure, sure. But I mean, Those are my 3, 8, 3 kind of way of thinking. But I want to be clear that I do believe. I don't have evidence, I can't prove it, but I do believe that Jesus was resurrected. I do believe that Jesus is the son of God. I believe he's the way, But I think he also casts a very wide net. And if people want to burn sage or they want to light candles, or they want to wear temple garments or they want to play with rattlesnakes on Sunday, if that brings you closer to God, I mean genuinely brings you closer to God and inspires you to reach out to the marginalized in society, then go for it. You'd certainly have my support and respect, but that's kind of where I've landed on my Christian belief.

Carah Burrell [02:07:38] All right, I got another good follow up.

Randy Bell [02:07:40] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:07:41] Wanting minds must know. So do you believe that God is the one truth? The one that the Jesus that you ascribe to, at least that that is the one way back to heaven that you know every D shall bend and profess that Jesus Christ is Lord? Or are there other alternative ways to get to God? Or does everyone need to convert to Christianity?

Randy Bell [02:07:59] Yeah, that's A great question and the best answer on that I would draw on CS Lewis that says that there is a heaven, there is a hell. I do believe Jesus is the one true way. But, but that all being said, that there's a bus that goes from hell to heaven every 30 minutes. You just can't take any luggage. You know, you got to leave the hate behind, you got to leave the sin behind, you got to leave, you know, your garbage and baggage behind. And I would probably just go with CS Lewis there on that one. So, yeah, I think he's the way. But I think, like, I'm always kidding around with you, John, and you know, some of the other guys that I think you're doing God's work.

Randy Bell [02:08:43] Anytime you turn on the lights and tell the truth, and anytime you're helping marginalized people heal from trauma, I don't care what the semantics are. I think that that's God's work. And I get pile ons from evangelicals when I say that. But that's just what I believe. I think God's work can be performed by even those atheists who are feeding the hungry and giving something to drink to the thirsty. That's how I believe. And I'll let God be the judge.

Randy Bell [02:09:14] And that's just kind of how I roll. So, yeah, I'm very. I always welcome people that are, that have the same value system, whether we have the same beliefs or semantics or labels. I don't, I care less about. I don't care. I'm not saying I don't care. I care less about it. I mean, I care less about that than getting the right labels.

Carah Burrell [02:09:35] So you're not somebody who, instead of just handing out Book of Mormons on a plane, you're handing out Bibles on a plane anymore?

Randy Bell [02:09:41] No, I got my cues there from Mrs. Fender. I kind of feel like I'm just going to be me. Good or bad, right or wrong, I'm just going to be me. If someone has questions, I'll answer them. That's how Mrs. Fender was, you know, backstage with the rock stars and the country stars. She wasn't preaching ever, but she loved Jesus and everybody knew it. But she was not offensive in any way. She was just a wonderful, loving person. I'm not saying I'm like her, but that's what I'm kind of shooting for.

Carah Burrell [02:10:18] What about the idea that this is the good news, this is the gospel, and you know, it would be a huge mistake. You would not be living up to your, your Christian duty to make sure that everyone hears about the good news and that you do need to be preaching and telling people about Jesus.

Randy Bell [02:10:33] Yeah, I think it is good news. I mean, when I became one thing that Rick Warren said that really resonated with me is when you. When you kind of give it over to God, that you get forgiveness for your sins, you get a purpose in life, and you get a place in heaven. I like those. I like that. That rings true for me. And then I look at the science and the evidence, which we haven't really got into, but I'm happy to at another time. But that's kind of how I look at it. I hope I'm not coming across as preachy. I'm just kind of telling my story.

Carah Burrell [02:11:10] That's what I want. Yeah.

Randy Bell [02:11:12] But if it resonates with somebody, great, I share more. If it doesn't, it doesn't. We can still be friends. Come to my barbecue. I don't care. You know, that's just kind of how I'm rolling now.

Dogma, Authoritarianism, and Leaving Exclusivism Behind

Carah Burrell [02:11:23] What I really liked that we talked about at lunch was just the concept of dogma and authoritarianism and that we're coming from a religion that has a restored gospel and a prophet who kind of already has the right answers that you just need to fall in line with. And so I can see how that is just not an appealing gospel. And the way that you just laid out your. Your big eight and your low three, how you would be feeling so,

Randy Bell [02:11:47] so

Carah Burrell [02:11:47] kind of repulsed by the Mormon gospel version of the Christian, like, and then versus the Christianity that you've embraced now. So can you speak to a little bit more about why? Why even if Mormonism was. Even. Even if you didn't read the gospel topics essays that you mentioned that you did, it sounds like to me that you're fundamentally against the principles of the way that the Mormon gospel is set up and that you are just more open to this less dogmatic version that Christianity kind of speaks to your soul. That's kind of what I see.

Randy Bell [02:12:19] Yeah. I think there's kind of two parts to answering that. First is, yeah, I'm against dogma. Whenever I hear somebody, whether on any podcast or anybody that's dogmatic, that knows they got it right to the exclusion of room for anyone else that I'm not for. And that goes for both gnostic theists and antitheists. You know, we've kind of covered that. And then. I'm sorry, what was the second part?

Carah Burrell [02:12:47] The second part is I can ask it in a different way. So many Christians want Mormons to come into the true Jesus, the grace filled Jesus. And so it sounds like even if you didn't even find some of the truth claims that you knew about Joseph Smith and the polygamy, that your soul, your spirit, is just not in tune with this dogmatic, authoritarian version of a gospel that you were seeking after something else.

Randy Bell [02:13:08] Yeah, thanks for reminding me. Yeah. I don't know if it was on your podcast here, but somewhere I heard the concept of punch up but don't punch down, that really resonated. I want to be crystal clear. I don't punch down. I will never fault a.

Randy Bell [02:13:26] There are people far better than me and far more faith in Christ and me who are in the Mormon Church. And I fully acknowledge that. And I fully acknowledge if there is a God, and I believe there is, and if there is a heaven and a hell, I believe there is. I believe there are plenty of atheists and Mormons, agnostic and Hindus, that God is not going to be militant. If God is what he says he is in the New Testament, he's very kind and forgiving. And I believe there will be plenty of Mormons in heaven.

Randy Bell [02:14:01] But, you know, punching up, you know, I see stuff there that doesn't resonate that is really, really troubling to me and really unfortunate. I think the church has. The Mormon Church has a really uphill battle with, you know, their agenda to make the church grow and hang on to this.

Randy Bell [02:14:24] Never apologize for the race issues and hold on to this. Lgbt, the young people today are just too smart. They get it. And that's just not a message that's going to resonate going forward. We'll see what happens. But I think I would never punch down, I would never say any derogatory towards a Mormon or a Hindu that believes in the monkey God.

Randy Bell [02:14:51] That's their beliefs, and I'll respect them. But, yeah, the leaders of any dogmatic theology that are Gnostic, I would love to debate them, but I don't think they're ever going to show up.

Carah Burrell [02:15:09] All right, that answers that, by the way. Thanks.

Randy Bell [02:15:13] Oh, good. Thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:15:14] Yeah, that's one of the most important things that I think Christians and Mormons are always discussing, debating over is, you know, this authoritarian version of Mormonism versus. Yeah, this very. Yeah, this, this. There's so many versions of. Of how you can construct a God, but I have nothing but, like, that most respect for. Yeah, the way that you've laid things out and the way that you came to your beliefs. And so that's. That's always the biggest debate. I feel like, is just Mormons and Christians going back and forth. And so just kind of wanted to pick your brain, but that is a satisfying answer.

Randy Bell [02:15:50] So I used to get into those debates when I was a Mormon missionary, and I look back and I think that was just a waste of everybody's time. I think we do better when we say, instead of spending that time in the debate, why don't we both go to the grocery store and get some groceries and go to the homeless shelter? That's a better use of time and money.

Randy Bell [02:16:11] The temple recommend, you know, give me a break. Do you support this and do you support that? Do you pay this? Do you pay that? Do you wear this? Do you wear that? This question should be, are you kind? Are you loving? How do you care for the LGBT community? How do you treat women? How do you treat children? You know the stuff about, I'm not into porn. I'm sorry, I'm just not into it. But people that are. How can we help you develop more healthy relationships? Relationships. That should be the question rather than, you know, shaming people over whatever mistakes or shortfalls that they have. I just don't get that whole thing. I really don't.

John Dehlin [02:16:46] Randy Bell's temple recommend questions.

Randy Bell [02:16:48] They'd be holy.

Carah Burrell [02:16:51] Yeah, I always love that because I always want to know what people are for because we spend so much time saying, like, we're against this, we're against this. But, like, I love that, like, in your gospel, in your mind of what you. You hope for and you hope people can aspire to be for themselves and do for other people, that's, like, perfectly stated.

John Dehlin [02:17:08] I think it is kind of mind blowing that the temple recommend questions don't start with, do you love God and yourself and your neighbor? Do you clothe the naked? Do you feed the hungry? Do you serve the poor? Are you. Are you not bigoted? Do you love all races, all genders? Do you love the LGBT people? Do you fight for the oppressed? Why isn't there a list of 10 questions around that before it's ever, do you drink beer? And do you wear the right underwear?

Randy Bell [02:17:43] Right. I. I couldn't agree more.

John Dehlin [02:17:45] And do you give the church 10% of your income when the church is worth hundreds of billions of dollars? Like it. It seems totally, I hate to say it, almost Antichrist. The emphasis that the temple recommend questions kind of are. They're about, do you sign up to the authority? Do you do.

Carah Burrell [02:18:03] You're lower down on the list. I'll give the Mormon Church some credit. I'm reading them Right now they're lower on the list. The number one is do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. And again, going back to that DIY God idea, if you believe in Jesus Christ as somebody who wants you to serve, like it's asking you, do you believe in like the best attributes of Christ? And so just depends on if somebody is, you know, whatever they've made up in their mind of what God cares about. I think that's how I say it.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] I mean, the church has every right to have whatever rules for its club it wants to. My two problems with, with God and Jesus is, first of all, it's the Mormon God and Mormon Jesus, which I think are fraught. But secondly, it's more belief based. And I really like what Margi said and you may disagree with this a little bit, Randy, but Margi said beliefs are overrated. And I kind of think that's true. I think how you act is way more important than what you believe.

Randy Bell [02:19:00] I actually agree with Margi. In fact, I should mention when we're going through the podcast is when I need a dose of kind of self care, which I kind of neglect. I listen to Margi because she's got that dialed in and she's very articulate and very insightful into, you know, yeah, we want to love others, we want to love God, but we want to take care of ourselves. Margi seems to really have that mastered.

John Dehlin [02:19:25] So shout out to Margi. Yeah, love you, Margi.

Carah Burrell [02:19:28] Love you, Margi.

Randy Bell [02:19:30] Hey, Margi, I love you.

Carah Burrell [02:19:31] I agree with Margi. Before she's even opened her mouth. Sometimes she's like, whatever you say, you've got it.

Randy Bell [02:19:36] She's very wise.

Carah Burrell [02:19:37] She's so, she's so sweet. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:39] And I don't mean to pile on the church, but, but I just, I think it's fair to say that the temple recommend questions might be tuned to have a better emphasis on what Christ was for, not what Mormons are against. I don't know.

Randy Bell [02:19:54] Well, I think the questions, if I were asking him is just like you said, are you caring for children? Are you protecting children? You know, the other thing that Jesus said that I think is right on the money is when a crime is committed and harming a child is a crime, the police, the authorities should be called. That should not be covered up. That should not be handled quietly and in house. You know, covering up and concealing a crime from the authorities is a double crime in my mind. I don't care if there's reporting laws in that state or not. So those are the types of questions.

Randy Bell [02:20:25] Do you take care of the children? Report crimes to the police so they can investigate and render under Caesar that which is Caesar? If you commit a crime against a child, you need to go to prison. There needs to be accountability. That's a teaching from Jesus, you know, in terms of rendering under Caesar. So as I read the New Testament, there's lots of just wonderful wisdom there. And that's, that's just another example of it.

John Dehlin [02:20:52] I'm going to, I'm going to at least get one. You know, Carah asked a few of her questions.

Randy Bell [02:20:57] Yeah, go for it.

John Dehlin [02:20:58] I've got. Here's my biggest concern with Christians. Sure, Christians, I love you. Here's my one concern with Christians. Yeah. To me, baked into too many Christians I've interacted with is the idea that if you don't believe in God or Jesus, that there's a deficiency.

John Dehlin [02:21:19] I, I don't. I, I tend to feel like if there's a God that is worth living with forever, if there's a God that's worth worshiping, if there's a God that is truly good, it will not matter if you believed in God in the afterlife, because God's going to go, yeah, I kind of didn't give you the evidence.

John Dehlin [02:21:43] And, you know, lots of people believed and lots of people didn't, but I'm certainly not going to hold that against you when I kind of stacked the deck against many of you. And so God's not going to really care if you believed in God. And God's really not going to care if you believe in Jesus now. God might care how you treat other people.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] So, so, like, when a Christian is like, hey, are you, are you being kind to people? Then I'm like, hey, man, we're vibing. But if a Christian's like, oh, you don't believe in God and Jesus, well, I'm worried about you. Like, I'm, I'm praying for you that you're, you're not, you know, you're not kind of there yet. That's the moment where I'm like, hey, like, I, I don't want to look at you and go, hey, you're missing secularism. You're missing a true love of science and data. Like, I don't even want to be. You guys are laughing. I don't even want to be in that form of judging at all.

John Dehlin [02:22:37] And even, I mean, I think Jesus even backs me here. What does Jesus say about judging? Jesus said, Judge not. I don't like Christians if they look at me as lesser than or deficient if I don't have a proactive. And again, I've never, ever once in my life identified as atheist or agnostic, although I think everyone's agnostic definitionally, because I don't think anybody knows.

Carah Burrell [02:22:58] But aside from that, everyone's an atheist to everyone else is gods.

John Dehlin [02:23:01] Yeah. And everybody's agnostic because nobody really knows. But aside from all that, I, I just don't want any Christian looking at me like, looking down like, well, you don't quite. I feel sorry for you. I'm going to pray for you. You're missing something. I want them to go, hey, John, I look at your life. It looks like you're trying to help people. As far as far as whatever I believe in, you're just fine. And there's really no difference between me and a believing Christian. I don't think there is. And, and so I don't want to ever feel like they're looking at me as deficient in some way. And I hope, I hope I can return that courtesy and not look at a Christian and go, oh, man. Well, someday you'll figure out the true way, which isn't like a condescending nature to it.

Carah Burrell [02:23:47] And it also sounds like you're saying, like when somebody says that to you, you don't want to have to say back to them, like, well, your God didn't give me the evidence to need to believe in them like that I've. Aren't you, aren't you just glad that my life is living evidence that I'm a good person?

John Dehlin [02:24:03] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:24:03] That if, if your God needs me to believe in them, then give me more evidence to ascribe a belief as well. Is that where you're going with that? Or you're saying, yeah, you just don't like it? Condescending.

John Dehlin [02:24:13] All of that. All of that.

Randy Bell [02:24:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:15] And. Yeah. And so what do you think about that, Randy?

Randy Bell [02:24:19] I, I kind of. I, I agree with you. I wouldn't want to ever do anything to ever. And I hope I never have made you feel that way because I sure haven't ever intended to. I, again, I take my cues from Mrs. Fender, who is a very devout, very wonderful Baptist Christian woman who really kind of got what I thought looked like a really vibrant religion. She married Leo Fender and Leo wasn't a Christian. She never, it was a non issue to her. It's a non issue to me because for a lot of reasons. One, Jesus said himself, judge not that you be not judged.

Randy Bell [02:24:58] Now I say that evangelicals pile on and say, well, look at Leviticus. You know, there should be righteous judgment. You should be judging John Dolan. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just. The whole judgmental thing doesn't vibe with me. I look up to you, John, because your marriage has worked. You know, you're doing. You've helped millions. I help a couple people here and there, but you've helped millions. I mean, 75% of the Mormon church is no longer Mormon, so.

Randy Bell [02:25:29] And you're helping turn on the lights. You're causing, you know, whether they like it or not, kicking or screaming, good change within the church, which I'd love to see. I'd love to see the church get healthier and healthier. You say that all the time. I 100% agreement. And if Christians make you ever sound that way, I just apologize on behalf of them because I think they're struggling too.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] And none of my decent Christian friends, whether it's Paul, Paul Cardall or. Or Chris Thomas or you or none of them, they're all lovely. I think I don't even want to feel like in their heart they're wishing that I would be different. You know what I mean?

Randy Bell [02:26:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:08] Even completely. That's my message to Christians is like, what if it. What if. What if there's many ways up Mount Fuji. Christianity is one angle or lens at it. Even secularism can be another lens or angle at the same outcome. And what if we don't ever, ever just take the posture. Yeah. That somebody else hasn't quite got it figured out, but we kind of do. That's. That's all I'm hoping for. And that's my only real criticism I

Randy Bell [02:26:38] get where plenty of Christians do get vibe off that judgmental. I'm here to save you. I'm here to change you. I can just tell you the. Where I took my cues with Mrs. Fender. I never got that vibe at all.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] And that's not you. You're saying that's not you?

Randy Bell [02:26:55] It's certainly not me. No.

John Dehlin [02:26:57] In your mind, if Carah decides she wants to be an atheist till she dies. But. But a stone cold. We call it Carah, Stone cold atheist.

Carah Burrell [02:27:06] Stone cold atheist.

John Dehlin [02:27:07] If she wants to be that way.

Carah Burrell [02:27:08] Cold hardened atheist.

John Dehlin [02:27:10] But she's trying to be kind and do good to others and she dies. As far as the God that you believe in or your theology, how's Carah?

Randy Bell [02:27:19] Here's what I honestly think about atheism. Okay. I think that after a trauma, atheism can be a really healthy place to take a break. I think taking a break and healing when you're busted up in an auto accident, you go to the hospital, you just take a break. I think that I resonate more with agnostic and maybe it's me, maybe you can explain this to me and help me understand. But I think of, hey, there's five senses. We can taste, feel, smell, hear, see, whatever. Five senses. And yet I believe there's a sixth sense which science calls the fourth dimension. And I have a real curiosity about it and correct me because I'm probably wrong, but I think of atheism as kind of slamming the door at exploring that sixth sense. Do you see yourself open to looking at that or you just not even interested in doing that?

Carah Burrell [02:28:17] Yeah, big time. I mean, my sister, I talk to her on the phone all the time. She's very New Agey and she's into all kinds of things.

John Dehlin [02:28:24] Cool.

Carah Burrell [02:28:24] And our epistemology, you could say, of how we arrive at what we believe is true is completely different. She thinks that feelings are completely sufficient. And I've already been in a religion where feelings and faith in something were not as efficient to warrant a strong belief in something. I can have intuitions about things, but something that I would move forward with, where I bring my kids, what I believe about myself, others, afterlife, I haven't found the evidence sufficient to warrant a belief in. And so I'm open to whatever evidence presents itself. You could say.

Carah Burrell [02:28:59] And because I never want to be like we're talking about with dogma again. I never want to be so hardened that I know what's right or what's wrong because I already came from that and I knew how divisive and problematic it was. And so we were talking about at lunch that. That people are having spiritual experiences all around the world in different. Different religions, different backgrounds for all different types of reasons. And there's so much that we don't know about what it means to be human and. And why we're here. Exactly. I am just not. It's the God of the gaps fallacy. I'm not one to say the reasons we don't know is because God.

Carah Burrell [02:29:32] I'm going to fill that in. I'd rather just say the reasons we don't know is because we haven't investigated it enough yet. And I'm fine with that until we get more evidence.

Randy Bell [02:29:40] Well, I have two responses. One is, and you reminded me of this a lunch. You're an agnostic atheist, which agnostic to me is a really Healthy thing to have questions, be asking questions and exploring when somebody are just stone cold atheists. You know, that was John put in his question. He didn't say agnostic atheist. I think of somebody who's kind of shut the door and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there are atheists out there that can explain to me better.

Carah Burrell [02:30:07] Yeah, that's the gnostic atheist. We were talking about like a 7 out of 7 scale that very few people are in. Yeah.

Randy Bell [02:30:11] As long as people are exploring, they have my 100% support, you know, agnostic atheists to anything. But the Gnostics, the know it alls, they cause more harm than help in my mind. I think we probably agree on that.

Carah Burrell [02:30:30] Yeah, yeah. And I think it's healthy to take things into perspective because I believe in evolution. I believe that the Earth is four and a half billion years old and that everything that we see on earth right now existed scattered across the universe at one time. And that us as human beings, we evolved from other life forms and other primates, that smaller life forms going back, you know, millions and billions of years. And so I feel like there's answers, everything that we have right now, religious answers for and that we've given religious answers for for most of our human existence, of why the sky is blue, why it's raining, all of the whys of, you know, people used to think that the sun used to rise and set because there was like a chariot pulling it across the sky.

Carah Burrell [02:31:11] Everything that we used to give religious answers for. I have come to the point where I feel like the more and more we investigate, yeah. We will have less and less religious answers and more scientific answers based on evidence that we can build off of more. And so I just, I'm completely happy to say I don't know. That's the greatest feeling as an ex Mormon, just to say, yeah, I don't know, I don't know. And so I'm not going to have like super definitive answers because I know how the human race evolved.

Randy Bell [02:31:36] I couldn't agree with you more. Say no. I don't know is a really, a honest thing and be really refreshing. I totally get that, you know, but I got to, I got to say that in studying science, we really haven't got into that, but maybe some other time we could. But there's kind of a notion that science is always displacing religion. Not always true. When Buddhism and meditation has been around for 2000 years, they're just discovering the last 12 years at Harvard Medical School with Sarah Lazar's Research and I could go through other examples where religion teachings have been around for thousands of years that science is now kind of backing up.

Science, Faith, and Being Open to Change

Randy Bell [02:32:18] So I agree with you that science is displacing a lot of archaic religion concepts. But that concept kind of works both ways. The Big Bang theory. You know who Lemtri is? Georgius Lemtri. This is fascinating that Georgius Lemtri was a MIT physicist, brilliant guy. He was also a Catholic priest. He came up with the Big Bang theory and he got it from Genesis. The point is there doesn't need to be a battle between religion and science, science and religion. Einstein said it himself that the more elevated that science gets and religion gets, the closer they come closer and closer to each other. So that quote from Einstein and studying Lemtri's life and the Big Bang theory and the fact that it came from Genesis, I think religion, even the Catholic religion, which I respect because they apologize over there, you know, bring something to the table.

Randy Bell [02:33:19] And I think as we collaborate from different points of view, agnostic deistheists, all these different points of view, we get to better and better answers.

Carah Burrell [02:33:28] Yeah, sure. My follow up though to that, my small pushback is that religion, where there's a practice like meditation, something that we can go on, you know, a thousand years later and then study why it's so beneficial from like a psychological perspective. My, my only argument to that is that so much of religion is based on a faith of a, you know, the typical hoping for things that you can't believe. And normally we, we don't like, substitute and like we only speak of faith when we wish to substitute it for evidence. And so it's usually never the way, other way around where we are going to start getting more and more religious answers and substitute those for scientific ones. Do you see what I mean?

Randy Bell [02:34:11] I see what you mean.

Carah Burrell [02:34:12] The, the necessity of faith is being carved out less and less. I didn't say that very well. People who, who base their life on faith. Okay, starting over. What do you think is, what do you think of faith? What role does faith play do you think, as, as a human species? What is the benefits of faith wider than just what, what it means to you? What do you think is the benefit of faith? Because what I was trying to say very clumsily just now is that we only speak of faith when we don't have evidence for it. Again, that God of the gaps fallacy, that we, we don't have the necessity of faith quite as much as we used to anymore because we have the scientific Method and we have reasons for explaining things. So why do you. Why do you. What do you think is the good. The goodness of faith.

Randy Bell [02:34:57] Yeah, the goodness of faith and God of the gaps is another interesting one. When I go into court, the judge does not instruct the jury that to go ahead and speculate what's going to happen tomorrow or next week or how this is going to resolve. The cases in the court system are based upon the evidence in place as of right now.

Randy Bell [02:35:19] So the idea that science is going to always solve things. There's a book called the End of Science by John Horgan. He writes for Scientific American. Science has hit a number of roadblocks. And on top of that, on the legal perspective, the judge doesn't allow you to speculate in terms of what's going to happen in the future. We've got to go on the evidence today. And as Anthony Montebosco said himself just a few weeks ago that there either is a God or there's not a God. And one set of things that we haven't gotten into is going from A of atheist to B to belief to C to Christianity.

Randy Bell [02:35:58] I think it's much more productive to have A to B debates and discussions than A to C because Christianity, granted has issues, but the A to B arguments are like abiogenesis and ex nihilo and there's fascinating arguments. What the theology looks like is or is there not a God? So the benefits of faith is a long way of getting to answering your question. I think the benefits of faith is, first of all, for me, it's just really fun to explore. I love the door open. I love, and I get the sense from both of you that if I came up with some really cool book or some article, you would read it and not give it an ignorant dismissal.

Randy Bell [02:36:40] That's faith. That, hey, maybe there's something out there. And I think that's kind of the journey we're on is to continuously evolve, continuously grow. And that's the benefit of faith, is that we really shut down the chance of progress, whatever that looks like, if we shut down faith. That's the best shot I have at answering that.

Carah Burrell [02:37:00] I actually really like that answer. Yeah, I see what you mean. I mean, I'm going to. In my mind, what you just said is almost like a hypothesis that it's things going back to the normal Mormon hope for faith is things that we hope for. What is that? Come on, people, quote it with me. Let's all sing it together.

John Dehlin [02:37:17] It's like a evidence of things hoped for, evidence not seeing or something.

Carah Burrell [02:37:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of something that, that all of the human race that we're, we're striving for, we're hoping for that there's going to be an answer out there. But yeah, you can talk on face as much as you want. I think that you are my favorite Christian and quite grounded in your life.

Randy Bell [02:37:39] I want a little metal or something.

Carah Burrell [02:37:41] Pyrah's favorite Christian.

Randy Bell [02:37:42] No, I appreciate you saying that. It's a fun, it's a messy topic. It's something that a lot of people can't handle without getting into debates and bashing and all that. But I love sitting down with intelligent people, intellectual atheists and others who play nice and can have these conversations because that's where we're going to find better and better answers that have real benefits for ourselves and for others around us. That's kind of how I view it. So I think faith and you know, I've written a couple articles on the scientific method. A hypothesis is an expression of faith.

Carah Burrell [02:38:20] I mean that's what I was trying to get at.

Randy Bell [02:38:21] Faith gets a bad rap in terms of just a word and people say faith is. What's the word I hear all the time? Faith is irrational. What a load of bs. Faith is in the scientific method and I've published in peer reviewed journals on that. So we all have faith. We have faith when we go through an intersection. Give me a break. So faith is a good, healthy thing to have. The more we can take that faith, test it and see if it's repeatable, if it's falsifiable, if it's testable, we're going to get to better and better answers.

Carah Burrell [02:38:54] May I combine that with what you were saying earlier about dogma and being open to change? Just as I am an atheist who is open to evidence presenting itself. Are you at the place where your faith is? Because I mean there's this great Aaron Ra quote where he says faith offers no way to discover truth about anything. But it's a great way to stay wrong forever and not know it. So I just wanted to push back with that quote that the idea that if you stick with faith forever and you're not open to new evidence, then like what does that really benefit you? You can just stay wrong forever and say, well, I'm staying wrong because I have faith instead of the other. The opposite of which is, I think is what we were kind of getting to in this discussion.

John Dehlin [02:39:30] I mean it sounds like he's talking about dogmatic closed.

Carah Burrell [02:39:33] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:39:34] Yeah. Randy is standing up for.

Randy Bell [02:39:35] I think we all agree dogma of any brand is toxic, period.

John Dehlin [02:39:42] Just stay open.

Randy Bell [02:39:44] And that goes for Republicans and Democrats and all kinds of things. Dogma is just really not helping us get the answers we need.

Carah Burrell [02:39:54] But if you're open and you're investigating and you're trying with the amount of the truth and the knowledge, the faith of a mustard seed and you're experimenting on it, is that kind of what you're getting at, that faith with experimentation but still being open to change and influence?

Randy Bell [02:40:10] Well, one of the epistemologies which never came up with Anthony Bonabasco is action research. Learn by doing. That's kind of what Jesus said. Hey, here are my doctrines. Try them out, see if they work. Work. That's a legitimate secular academic epistemology.

Randy Bell [02:40:25] The scientific method is only one of several others. So I like using all the tools in the tool shed to get at whatever the truth looks like. And by the way, just as I asked you that question, I didn't mean it like might have come across. If you have something I should look at that, you know, challenges Christianity, I want to see it. I don't want to go through life, you know, with pink rose sunglasses. I want to, I want to examine it. I'm not for the, you know, you know, when I come on Mormon stories and I'm, you know, presenting, you know, self identifying as a Christian, I'm going to get the people saying, oh, sky Daddy, you've gone from the frying pan to the pot, you know, and God

Carah Burrell [02:41:10] magic, you have my seal of approval. Everyone be nice.

Randy Bell [02:41:12] Well, I don't know. I hope so. I hope so because I try to respect others. But I kind of figure that kind of stuff is coming from dogmatic people, but intelligent conversations. Anybody that has something that, a book I haven't read, an article I haven't read, I'll read it. I'm open to it and maybe it will change my mind. But so far I feel pretty comfortable. Things are going pretty well the direction I'm going. That's not to say your way and your way aren't as or more valid. That's, that's not even the point of all this. It's just kind of doing what I can do. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:41:48] Oh yeah, I love that one question though.

Randy Bell [02:41:51] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:41:52] This is when you said Jesus tells you to experiment on the word. These are my doctrines. That's something I really believed when I was a Mormon and also when I was a Christian. But I wasn't taking into the account that if you don't that I. You can tell me if you believe in a different system. The way that I see Christianity set up is that, hey, God is telling you to go live in one house or the other house. Just so you know, if you don't choose the one where you worship me and love me and follow my doctrines, you have to go live in the house that's on fire and you're gonna be alive, like burning alive for a century.

Carah Burrell [02:42:23] So the choice is kind of removed from you. So while I thought that I had, you know, free will to experiment on these things, it feels like the choice is removed from you that if you don't actually like the doctrines and you don't love God, then you have a really severe consequence. So do you have anything that you want to say to that idea?

Randy Bell [02:42:44] Yeah. C.S. lewis said that Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, the Lord. And then Bart Ehrman added legend. And considering the bigness of Jesus and the profound effect he's had on humanity, you know, we got to kind of sort that out. The way it was explained to me by my, I have a friend, Mike out of Las Vegas looked nothing like that. Mike's a devout Christian, but he says, randy, just look up to the sky and say, God if you're out there and Jesus if you're out there, I'm going to open my heart up to you. And I did that. It took a little humility to just go outside and do that.

Randy Bell [02:43:26] At least humility on my part. And, and I can just tell you that that has kind of evolved. It wasn't a heavy duty, heavy handed do this in this house, go to heaven here, go to hell. It wasn't any discussion like that. And I think there are smarter, more compassionate Christians out there. I'm not saying I'm one of them, but I've been with people that I have regard for who explain it in a much more sensible way in terms of just expressing a particle of faith without this dogmatic, you know, these one thing I, and I'm sorry to go on a rant, but I got to do it.

Randy Bell [02:44:03] I'm against anti Mormons people that are riding around scooters and temple clothing. I'm against people that go to general conference and shout at people and families going to general conference. That is just garbage behavior. I don't care where anybody is on the belief system. But hounding people, yelling at people, screaming people, making light of people's. I didn't go to Hindu and make fun of the monkey God. So I think we all, I Don't know if we all agree, but I think we all agree that kind of extremism, gnosticism, is really toxic and an embarrassment. But the Christianity that I've kind of connected with was far more.

Randy Bell [02:44:41] Mrs. Fender. Mrs. Fender never said a word to me once to coerce me or move me or invite me or shift me towards Christianity. It was her example that was so powerful. And my friend, the most he said is just give it a shot. You know, it was very, very small and simple.

Carah Burrell [02:45:05] And I'm trying to remember your answer from before about, like, many ways to get to God. I can't remember. Can you repeat your answer of what you believe kind of about where everyone will eventually end up? Because it sounds like you're not falling in line with any of that typical, like burning in hell or any that. What do you describe the afterlife? What do you think it's going to be?

Afterlife, Epistemology, and Final Reflections

Randy Bell [02:45:25] That's such a great question, Carah, because I got to find a really smart theologian, because I've heard, and I don't profess to know this as a Sign Lan expert, but I've heard that the whole house fire and brimstone thing was kind of manufactured by the Catholic Church in the third century to kind of get people in line. I don't know if there's truth to that. I'd love to talk to Bart Ehrman, and, boy, I wish I had an hour with him. But that'd be one question I'd have for him of where that kind of came along. Because my sense of just reading the red letters of Jesus is that Jesus was just a mellow, kind person who had his trilogy of those who were pedophiles, scribes and Pharisees and monetized the temple.

Randy Bell [02:46:13] Other than that, it was all about finding marginalized people and helping them out and a belief in his divinity, which I have. I want to be clear about that. But that's the message. And it's been so messed up. It's just really unfortunate, you know, I don't like it.

John Dehlin [02:46:31] You're not a big hell guy.

Randy Bell [02:46:32] Basically, I'm not a big hell guy. I think here's the real reason. Jesus said himself, love your neighbor as yourself. Love your neighbor as yourself. Well, you're my neighbors. Why would Jesus send you to hell when he just told me to love you? He's not going to do something, he tells me, and do something different himself. He's going to love everybody, and I think he's going to give everybody a chance. Now, my work with disasters, there are some people that just hang on to hatred and crime and violence, and they're just addicted to it and addicted to anger. And Jesus, you know, nobody can really help them. You know, even the inmates in prison have given up on him. But for those who have a heart and want to do the right thing, I think Jesus is more than willing to accept all those. All those, period. That's what I think.

Carah Burrell [02:47:26] Yeah. I think that's the best version of Jesus I've ever heard. Like a Jesus without the harsh penalties and consequences, the fire and brimstone. A Jesus thing.

John Dehlin [02:47:34] Yeah. I think of it as universalism. That's kind of a universalistic Christian. Yeah.

Randy Bell [02:47:38] I'm not a universalist, but I get what you're saying. I think there are people that will choose hate over love, but people that choose love over hate, I think are going in the right direction and we just keep going, you know, the way.

John Dehlin [02:47:56] I. I don't want. Did you have a quick thing you wanted to add here?

Carah Burrell [02:47:59] I have, like an hour left of questions, so we're having it back tomorrow.

John Dehlin [02:48:03] We're having it back tomorrow.

Randy Bell [02:48:05] I'll unmount all the hard questions. He's smarter than me.

John Dehlin [02:48:08] Okay. So, yeah, yeah. Randy's coming back for a part three tomorrow. We're gonna have Alan Mount on. We're going to talk about theism versus atheism. Is there a quick thing that's kind of really contextually important Care that you want to add before I ask a final thing or make a final point?

Carah Burrell [02:48:25] Yeah. Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?

John Dehlin [02:48:32] I mean, it's either yes or no, Randy. It's either yes or no.

Randy Bell [02:48:36] That is a great question. And there's a more great questions that

Carah Burrell [02:48:41] burrito charged dot com.

John Dehlin [02:48:42] I'm gonna.

Randy Bell [02:48:43] I'm gonna quote the Buddha where he said, I don't know.

Carah Burrell [02:48:47] Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:48:50] All right. Thank you for that, Carah. That was important. I appreciate it.

Randy Bell [02:48:54] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:48:56] Okay, so for me, okay, really quickly, two things for me before we wrap up tonight. Epistemology in Mormonism, epistemology comes down to feelings. It's basically. It's true because I had this feeling, right? I prayed about it, and I got the witness, and my. My beliefs are true because I felt something right. And anyone who's got three brain cells that they are applying to that position will realize that. That. That mutually exclusive or conflicting theologies and even downright hateful violent theologies can all be rooted in the same justification. Ergo, beliefs are not a sound found epistemological foundation. Where do you stand on ultimately the epistemology of your faith? Relying in feelings? Or. Or do you characterize the foundations of your faith as being something other than feelings?

Randy Bell [02:50:02] I would say feelings are about 25% of my overall decisions. I really did genuinely go with egos, logos, pathos and duos. Pathos, feelings. That was my attempt. I think that where Anthony Montebosco gets a lot of traction is that he talks to people that have only gone on feelings. And frankly, that can be a very silly thing. My journey has been. And we haven't gotten into this, and hopefully someday we can, but I found that the people that I really resonate with are the Harvard physics professors, the Berkeley law professors, the Yale medical doctors, people that have a scientific method background that have landed in a similar place because I find their arguments more compelling.

Randy Bell [02:50:58] And my journey's been far more kind of evidence based. I hate to say it, but I'm happy to go through the evidence sometime. But far more evidence based than I thought. But I think feelings are correct. You know, I was with. I'll just tell you, I was with a rock star. I'm not going to mention his name because it's his story, but I was with a rock star, a name you'd all know. And he said, randy, do you know what sympathetic resonance is? And I go, no, I have no idea. I mean, I don't know. Maybe you guys already know.

John Dehlin [02:51:27] Just tell us.

Randy Bell [02:51:27] Okay, well, he said, when you're in a studio and you ring a bell and the other instruments in the room start vibrating in the same vibration, that's sympathetic resonance. He says, people are the same too. And the vibration is so important. So emotions are important. It's gotta ring true. But it also needs to be logical. It also needs to be ethical. And you also. I need to look at both sides of the story, that it completes the picture.

John Dehlin [02:52:03] Beautiful. Okay, last position. I have a piece of ice in my mouth because I'm dehydrated, so forgive me, listeners. I mean no disrespect. Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:52:14] And viewers, can you telepathically send me the question and I can just say it?

John Dehlin [02:52:19] Oh, no, I just spit out my ice off camera. Okay, so last thing.

Randy Bell [02:52:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:26] What it really comes down to for me are two things, like, or. Or. Let's just say here's my best attempt to really simplify and find common ground. Theists, slash Christians believe there's a God. Secular people acknowledge that there's something, some power, some force, nature in the universe. That's. That must be behind what's going on? Something. Right. There's really no difference between those two positions. One calls it God or heavenly Father or Allah, and the other call it science or nature or power, whatever. No real difference. That's number one. So why do we really make a big deal out of this when. When we both believe in some power or force? I'm trying to find common ground here. And this, this is kind of giving away what my conclusions will be tomorrow. When you and Alan talk.

Randy Bell [02:53:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:53:24] But the second thing is Jesus ultimately was about being kind to yourself and other people.

Randy Bell [02:53:30] Right.

John Dehlin [02:53:31] I'm all for being kind.

Randy Bell [02:53:32] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:53:32] To yourself and other people. So, like, if we both acknowledge a power, maybe we call it by different names and we're both focused on being kind to each other. Like, does any other difference really matter?

Randy Bell [02:53:46] I'm going to read a quote from Albert Einstein and this is the best. Einstein said it better than I can because I think. Let me find it. Here it is. Albert Einstein says science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued in the aspiration towards truth and understanding. I think that goes to your question. We're both on this quest to get more truth and more understanding. Then Einstein says the source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion.

Randy Bell [02:54:23] The situation may be expressed as an image. Science without religion is lame and religion without science is blind. And I think to kind of round out that answer. I think that as I study science and these things that could be nothing short of supernatural with what science calls translogical, I think we're all on the same path. And I think as science evolves and science is evolving and smart religion is evolving. And I think that the translogical is indistinguishable from the supernatural. And we're in this quest to answer the big questions. We're, we're all sitting here with this remarkable complexity and the fine tuning of the universe.

Randy Bell [02:55:09] Something crazy interesting happened here. And there seems to be the fingerprints of a designer here. Forget theology. Just is there a God or is there not a God in terms of a creator? And if you don't like the word God, you know, an intelligent creative force, those are kind of the big questions questions. And as long as we all have open minds and we're trying to get at that, whether with science or religion, I happen to think science and religion, I don't think it has to be a science versus religion nonsense. I think science and religion, as they evolve, get closer and closer together. I call it, you know, some people call it the spiritual dimension.

Randy Bell [02:55:47] Science calls it quantum Mechanics calls it the fourth dimension, which is equally as magical, you know, but as we just engage and have open minds and on a quest to have these kind of conversations, because clearly I don't have all the answers. Nobody, none of us do. Let's be honest. We're going to just get glimpses of what that looks like. We're not going to get answers, but we're going to get glimpses of if there's life after death, spirituality. Is there a designer? Is there a creator? We're going to get glimpses into those things. That's all we can hope for in this world. And I'm not going to ever put down anybody who doesn't get the same glimpse as I do or doesn't get the glimpses I do. This is silly. We're all on this quest and I love that.

John Dehlin [02:56:34] And it's very unifying. The only thing I'll add that's important to me and I'll ask here to add this to the show notes. There's a book called the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan where he talks about bad beliefs, superstitious beliefs.

Randy Bell [02:56:50] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:56:50] Whether it's that in the 16th or 17th century that certain girls were witches and that they practice witchcraft and so let's kill them, or people believing that aliens come down and abduct you and impregnate you.

Randy Bell [02:57:03] Right.

John Dehlin [02:57:03] Or let's just say qanon. I'll. I'll go there a little bit. That's some political conspiracy that Oprah and Tom Hanks eat babies and drink their blood so they can keep looking young, whatever it is, that there are harmful beliefs. Agreed.

Randy Bell [02:57:19] Oh, hey, man. Brother John. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:57:22] And, and, you know, trusting in, like, essential oils to do way more than they're capable of doing, like curing cancer or straightening your teeth through chakras or foot zoning. Like, I. I want to say that not all beliefs are okay. That there are beliefs that are harmful or distracting or a waste of time or not worthy. Can we agree on that as well?

Randy Bell [02:57:47] Thousand percent. Yeah. I mean, there's always been bad behaviors blamed on God. There's always been, you know, snake oil sold as science. There's been both good and enlightened science. There's also. I wrote an article on junk science. Not all science is good science. You know, when people put signs in their front yard and says science is real, well, I'm curious what science they're talking about because there's. You know, when I was a kid, there were magazine ads that said, your doctor recommends you smoke Camels. I mean, that's bad science.

Randy Bell [02:58:18] And there's bad religions. My point is, there are bad religions. There's also good, healthy religions. What? Mrs. Fenderick amplified. And there are other people. The Hindu guy I met, we're still friends over in India. It seemed like a really good, healthy religion, and I respect the heck out of them. So we got to get off this notion that all religion's bad, all science is good.

Randy Bell [02:58:42] It's a mix. And we got to have the critical thinking skills to navigate through all the BS and all the manipulations by very smart people who get us addicted to various foods and all this stuff and have critical thinking skills that get us closer and closer to intelligent decisions. That's all we can do.

John Dehlin [02:59:02] Love it. All right, Carol, what do you think? Did we do it? Did we square the circle?

Randy Bell [02:59:05] Did we.

John Dehlin [02:59:06] Did we solve the classic conundrum and reach Kumbaya status today with Randy.

Carah Burrell [02:59:13] I am an atheist, and I am satisfied with this conversation. And I think, Randy, you are an intelligent and critical thinking person, and you're also a Christian. And I don't think that's, like, they're not mutually exclusive. That's not a contradiction at all. I think that you're very studious and looking at evidence and trying to come to the smartest, most empathetic reason to believe the things you believe, and I respect you for that.

Randy Bell [02:59:37] Well, thanks. And I really respect you where you're at. I mean, I've listened to the podcast, you know, pretty speaking of religion religiously, since Carah joined. Yeah, no, really. And, you know, you bring youth to the table. You bring a new generation, you bring a female voice, which is essential, and I just really admire. In fact, if you don't mind, I got something for both of you. Is that.

John Dehlin [03:00:04] Okay, wait, you're going to give this on screen, or can we end and then you give it to us?

Randy Bell [03:00:07] This is on screen.

John Dehlin [03:00:08] You want to do this on screen? This is kind of dramatic. Are you afraid, Carah?

Carah Burrell [03:00:11] I think I know what it is.

John Dehlin [03:00:12] What's he going to pull out of his satchel?

Carah Burrell [03:00:14] It's a piece of foam.

Randy Bell [03:00:14] Cine. Yellow is.

John Dehlin [03:00:15] John, I'm getting a gift on Mormon stories. Pot. I can't reach it.

Randy Bell [03:00:22] And you, why don't you open yours? Carrot? This is. They're small tokens.

John Dehlin [03:00:26] Cares. Pink.

Randy Bell [03:00:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:29] I care's opening hers.

Carah Burrell [03:00:34] We were just talking about your.

Randy Bell [03:00:36] Just rip it open. Just rip it open.

Carah Burrell [03:00:38] This sounds really good in the headphones. This is asmr. Oh, it's your book, Leo Fender.

Randy Bell [03:00:43] And it's signed by Mrs. Fender. It's one of the few remaining. So I. Oh, my gosh.

Carah Burrell [03:00:47] Thank you.

Randy Bell [03:00:48] I hope you enjoyed.

John Dehlin [03:00:49] She passed away, right?

Randy Bell [03:00:50] Yeah, she did. Very sad.

John Dehlin [03:00:52] Very sadly. Okay. And mine. Yeah, mine is a cereal bowl.

Randy Bell [03:00:58] Well, it's a cereal bowl, but this comes. John, this.

John Dehlin [03:01:01] That's so beautiful. This is beautiful.

Randy Bell [03:01:02] Well, it's called a can. Well, RFM Can. Speaks Japanese. I don't can.

John Dehlin [03:01:10] Okay.

Randy Bell [03:01:10] But it's a broken bowl. And that bowl, a beautiful ceramic bowl instead of being thrown away. Oh.

John Dehlin [03:01:17] So the golden lining is actually where

Randy Bell [03:01:20] it's been sealed, it's been put back together with gold. And that's the business you're in. You help people rebuild with gold. And the fractures are considered part of the story, part of the beauty. So just a small token.

John Dehlin [03:01:36] Chair's getting misty eyed over there. Why are you misty?

Carah Burrell [03:01:40] I'd care because I just forgot that I was on mute. Anyway, I said, oh, sweet.

Randy Bell [03:01:45] You're very welcome. Thank you guys. That's just a small token to say thanks.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin [03:01:49] Well, Randy Bell, Dr. Randy Bell, it's been so lovely to spend six on screen hours with you. And we've got a couple hours to go tomorrow with Alan Mount.

Randy Bell [03:01:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:59] Sort of atheist meets theist. And we love Alan Mount and his TikTok and we're excited for tomorrow and tomorrow we can maybe get into some of the things that, that we didn't get into today. Carrie, you can bring out any other things you didn't get to ask, but we're, we're excited to have you for round three. But we're also super grateful for rounds one and two today. I know that it's always emotionally complex to come out publicly on such a bit. Let's just face it, Mormon Stories is a big stage.

Randy Bell [03:02:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:31] We now have at any given episode probably over a hundred thousand listeners or viewers. And viewers. And so it's never easy, especially when you have believing children or, you know, fellow friends or family that you respect. So thank you for your friendship, thank you for your courage and thank you for your willingness to, to tell your story and speak up. And I know there's going to be a lot of Christian Christians are like, yeah, representation.

Randy Bell [03:02:58] They're gonna hate my kids. Look good pro lgp. I think a lot of Christians are going to be down on me and a lot of people coming out of Mormonism are going to be down on me because I have a faith and I think the Mormon church is going to be down on me. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:03:12] But Randy, let's Be clear. F all those people. F them all. Every single one of them, the whole audience.

Carah Burrell [03:03:18] Seriously. When I was leaving Mormonism, I would have loved to find this on the YouTube algorithm of somebody giving a good blueprint of what it looks like to leave Mormonism in a non dogmatic type of way. Pro lgbtq. All of the things I think is going to be really inspirational. You need like a bridge and kind of need a good roadmap of how things have worked out for you so far and the books that you've read and the places that you've gotten to like coming up against my and John's like, you know, hard questions and stuff that I think you answered wonderfully. I think this episode will do a lot of good.

Randy Bell [03:03:49] Thanks. I think that cynicism is one thing. I haven't detected that. But, you know, critical thinking is just being objective and objective thinking and maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. I think I'm right. We all think we're right. But, you know, I'm open. I really sincerely am open. But I've seen what I've seen. I've had the experiences that I've seen and, you know, and I just, I'm glad that I brought thegaychurch.org to the table where people who feel like they need a place to go have a place to go. And the other thing, the last parting word I want to say as long as I got the mic, is this boy Scout thing. The thing that got me off the dime to call you up, John, and say, let's do this thing, was the Boy Scout thing.

John Dehlin [03:04:36] There's a TikTok here.

Randy Bell [03:04:37] Yeah. This is irrefutable evidence. It was in Deseret News. The church, the Mormon Church paid out, wanted to pay out only $250 million. And child abuse claims just involving the Boy Scouts, that's not involving boy. Male to male abuse outside of Boy Scouts, and it's not involving any female abuse. $250 million is a big payoff that was rejected. The number is going to go up. One of my clients was the guy that went after the Catholic Church for a billion dollars. I know a little bit about this topic because he and I have had some conversations.

Randy Bell [03:05:14] That is a lot of systemic abuse. I don't say that other than to say that is an ugly, unfortunate fact. It's mathematics. It cannot be disputed. So for those staying in the Mormon Church, you have my love, you have my support. Please do not ever let your children go anywhere without two adults or being with your Children. It's just a safe, sane thing to do until they put the protocols in place that absolutely shuts all that down and they start calling the authorities on every crime allegedly convicted. I feel so passionately about that. That's what got me off the dime to come and come and do this.

John Dehlin [03:05:53] I'm seeing.

Randy Bell [03:05:54] Thanks for letting me share that.

John Dehlin [03:05:55] There is nodding.

Carah Burrell [03:05:56] Yeah. We did a little Mormon Stories episode. Maybe I'll put it in the show. Notes about that. That church payout and that big. That was just a couple months ago. Yeah. With the Boy Scouts of America. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:06] That's a lot of abuse.

Randy Bell [03:06:07] That is a lot of abuse.

John Dehlin [03:06:09] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:06:10] Not bad apples. It's a systemic thing. Sorry.

John Dehlin [03:06:13] Systemic problem. Yeah.

Randy Bell [03:06:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:15] All right. Well, Randy Bell, we love you. We'll see you tomorrow. Thank you so much. Carah Burrell. It's so lovely to have you as co host.

Carah Burrell [03:06:23] It's been so lovely to be your co host today. And we have a new employee here, so we have another fun figure around the Mormon Stories office.

John Dehlin [03:06:30] I haven't asked her permission yet, so

Carah Burrell [03:06:32] that's why I didn't say it. So I just said life is good. I'm so happy to be here. So happy that Randy got to spend the whole day together getting to know you. It's been really, really fun.

Randy Bell [03:06:41] Yeah. I really sincerely care. I appreciate it. And John, thanks. I love you, too, man. And keep up the great work, both of you.

John Dehlin [03:06:47] Thanks, man.

Carah Burrell [03:06:48] And anonymous figure in the background, the

Randy Bell [03:06:51] three of us and she who shall not be named in the background.

John Dehlin [03:06:56] Yeah. And that just goes to show you, we are growing here at the Open Stories Foundation. We're grateful for Gerardo, Carah, Jennifer, Brooklyn, our board, Clint and Carrie, and Employee X. And. But mostly we're grateful also for our donors because we could not do any of this, of which Randy is one. We could not do any of this without the generous donations of you, our listeners and viewers. I mentioned before, the less than one out of a thousand of our listeners or viewers are donors. And again, no shame if you can't afford. We give this away for free because we want all to receive it and all to enjoy it.

John Dehlin [03:07:35] So no shame if you can't support us. But we lose sometimes 20 donors a month, and if we don't replace them, then we have to let car go or I have to step down or we have to shut things down. And so as long as you value this content, if you can provide us with your support, if you could step up to fill the shoes of the other donors who have stopped donating we would really appreciate that. All you got to do is go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor. 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford.

John Dehlin [03:08:07] We really appreciate that. You can also donate through Venmo at Mormon Stories. You can super chat us on YouTube. There's a donate button for our non profit on YouTube now that I think YouTube doesn't take a huge cut from. And again, the super chat features a little dollar sign in the YouTube chat. You can also click on the stars feature in Facebook that that also somehow gets us some type of support financially. And we're working on merch. I've talked to our new employee about helping us get merch going, but you know, we just need your support. So please support us if you can. Thanks to everyone who does.

John Dehlin [03:08:49] Please email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com if you have any feedback or ideas or questions or concerns whenever you comment on YouTube or Facebook or on Instagram or TikTok or wherever. That helps with the algorithms. That helps with the shares and the likes and the follows. So do all that stuff. Share us like us. Follow us. TikTok, our Mormon stories podcast, TikTok channel now has over 110,000 subscribers. Thanks to you, Care Burrell. That's. That's a huge contribution you've made.

Carah Burrell [03:09:19] Thanks.

John Dehlin [03:09:20] And Instagram's growing as well. So we're just growing on all the major platforms. We're about to hit 50,000 YouTube subscribers within a month. We will hit 50,000 YouTube subscribers. That's a huge deal. And again, we're over 15 million downloads and views now. We're probably gonna hit 20 to 30 downloads and downloads and views within the 2022 time period because things are just going bananas.

John Dehlin [03:09:47] So just know that we're making a difference. And mind bogglingly, we mentioned this, I think last episode. We have more Never Mormon viewers and listeners now than we have believing Mormons and inactive Mormons and ex Mormons. So like now Mormon Stories is reaching more Never Mormons than anyone else, which is mind blowing. So now we have to explain every single acronym to our Never Mormon viewers and listeners so that they get what we're talking about. So I had a recent request to do an episode on weird Mormon terminology for Never Mormons so that they can know what a steakhouse is and they can know what a patriarchal blessing is and they can know.

Carah Burrell [03:10:32] Chuckarama.

John Dehlin [03:10:34] It's Outback Steakhouse.

Carah Burrell [03:10:37] Easy.

John Dehlin [03:10:38] Okay.

Carah Burrell [03:10:38] Wrong answers only.

John Dehlin [03:10:39] Okay.

Carah Burrell [03:10:39] That'd be a great episode.

John Dehlin [03:10:40] We don't need that episode. Scratch that. Anyway, what a TBM is. You know what a pmo, what a PIMO means?

Carah Burrell [03:10:47] Like TBM is after you drink your coffee and you have like a. Never mind.

John Dehlin [03:10:52] Oh, gosh.

Carah Burrell [03:10:53] Oh, that's a bm. Never mind.

John Dehlin [03:10:55] Okay, Carah's got to bring it low. Thank you, Carah.

Carah Burrell [03:10:58] Can anyone like congratulate for me for like how fast I like worked out the letters for TBM and I was like a truly quick bower movement.

John Dehlin [03:11:05] You're an absolute genius.

Carah Burrell [03:11:06] Yeah, just I'm thinking on my feet for all the poop jokes, so.

John Dehlin [03:11:09] Okay. Thank you, Clarence. Thank you, Carah. We love you guys. Thanks for the support. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other and thanks for your support. We'll see you guys all again very soon on another episode of Warmer Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Carah Burrell [03:11:26] Bye.

John Dehlin [03:11:26] It.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.