Introduction and Episode Overview

Carah Burrell [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:03] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John De Lin. It's Jesus and Joseph Smith's birthdays. It's April 6th. That's kind of a Mormon doctrine insider joke. But today, we are here kind of in a ambivalent mood. Kind of excited for this episode, but also kind of sad that this episode is even necessary. We're here to discuss a recent talk that was given at BYU Hawaii a few days ago by David Glenn Hatch. It was a devotional, and we're going to tell you why it's kind of a bittersweet day. But here, as co host for today's episode, returning to Mormon Stories, is Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:00:50] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Thanks for coming.

Carah Burrell [00:00:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Welcome back.

Carah Burrell [00:00:52] Thanks, man.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] It's good to have you back.

Carah Burrell [00:00:54] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] How's. How's Nuance Hill going?

Carah Burrell [00:00:57] Going really good.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:00:58] I think I'm up to, like, 17,000 subscribers. It just keeps going up there. You got the shorts, you got the long format. People are telling me, Carrie, you're really, like, stepping up as, like, a real YouTuber now. So it's the compliment I've been waiting for forever.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] And we love seeing you thrive. So keep it up.

David Glen Hatch [00:01:13] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:01:13] Thanks, everyone. So.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] And our collabs are always. I mean, people. People seem to like when we collab. I mean, I just have to say it.

Carah Burrell [00:01:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Can I say it?

Carah Burrell [00:01:21] Yeah. Yeah. This back and forth, you know, so can't live without it.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] So today I think we're going to be both. Be sharing today's episode on both our channels.

Carah Burrell [00:01:30] Yeah. So everyone, please forget everything John just said. Welcome to the new one so Channel. The only channel you'll ever need.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] Absolutely. All right, so. So, Carrie, you felt strongly about this episode, and you. You really wanted to do a collab on this. Do you want to give a little intro before we jump in?

Reacting to the BYU-Hawaii Devotional Talk

Carah Burrell [00:01:48] Yeah. John sent me this. He said, you're gonna want to watch this. And I immediately skipped to the parts that we're talking about right now. And I mean it when I say I was, like, speechless. I was like, this. I've heard something. I was like, especially recently. This is the most unhinged talk I have heard from any kind of Mormon leader in a while that really, like, was knocking me off my socks for a second. I was like, is. Is this. Is this real life? Is this somewhat type of alternate reality? Like, how does he get away? What is he saying? What. How does he think that he's actually making sense here and that this is.

Carah Burrell [00:02:23] And then we Find out that it did cause a little bit of a stir at BYU Hawaii, as well as getting taken down. And it's usually these times, John, where we have this reaction. We're like, how did they let this be published? And of course. And then it kind of has causes a stir and it gets taken down. So we'll discuss that more later. So my instinct was correct that this is definitely something that we need to expand upon and talk about.

Carah Burrell [00:02:45] Yeah, just anything that comes out of the, the pulpits of, of Mormon authorities, wherever they are priesthood leaders, I think are worth discussing whether they're. Yeah, just giving kind of problematic messages.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] So what I thought of when, when we, when we started collaborating on this was the fact that we broke that Brad Wilcox Alpine Mormon Youth Rescue kind of talk where, you know, someone leaked out to us and then we leaked it and talked about it and it was probably one of the biggest single days in the history of Mormon stories on YouTube. This talk rivals, if not is worse than Brad Wilcox talk. Am I exaggerating?

Carah Burrell [00:03:26] Yeah, I think it's more over the top.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] Right.

Carah Burrell [00:03:29] Yeah. I can't wait for everyone to just to get into and have their opinions about it. It's definitely one of those where you cannot believe how non self aware sometimes these Mormon leaders are. And like when there's like, no, nobody oversaw this. There's like no church pr. You guys are rich enough. You guys could. Yeah, where are the adults in the room kind of stuff. So yeah, Brad Wilcox had a lot of main points that were around more like really racist kind of talking points. And this one I think errs more on just creating a Jesus out of your own mind and kind of hating on anything that looks like a liberal Jesus, a progressive Jesus, an LGBTQ friendly Jesus. So it's, it's. And it also is presented in kind of a, a creepy way. So.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Yeah. So maybe, maybe just to kind of give an introduction. I'm, I'm looking at David Glenn Hatch's website. You can go to davidglenhatch.com it almost looks like he's kind of like an alternative to Paul Cardall, who is a dear friend of mine who is kind of a Mormon pianist who you know, for decades was like the go to guy for Mormon piano hymns on like Spotify and Pandora, whatever. And you know, Paul, you know, as we shared Paul Cardall's story during COVID he eventually left the church and is a kind of a born again Christian now. So I don't know if they're kind of positioning David Glenn Hatch to be the replacement for Paul Cardall.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] But if you, if you go to his website, davidglanhatch.com it says welcome to the official website of David Glenn Hatch. And it's basically just a bunch of piano music. And I don't know, I guess here's a biography of him. I'll just read it really quick.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] International concert and recording artist and master teacher of piano, David Glenn Hatch enjoys a distinguished career as a soloist and guest artist with symphony orchestras on six continents. And it lists like a gazillion countries. I mean it's literally a paragraph of countries. I'm not kidding. An entire paragraph of countries.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] It goes on to say he completed his BMU degree from byu, Outstanding Pianist Award, University of Missouri, Kansas City, summa cum laude. And yeah, so graduate degree in piano and he's performed all over the world and a gazillion CDs and he's won contests and you know, awards, et cetera. So that's, that's who David Glenn Hatch is. I don't know why he was chosen to speak at BYU Hawaii.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] We actually did, I should say this. We reached out to David Glennhatch directly in, in three different ways and invited him to come on the show. And as of now, he is not, he has not responded. So, you know, I guess car, I want to say at the top that people could say that we're kind of being mean spirited by even doing this episode. Mainly because we're kind of, kind of be critiquing him and, and we're also going to be sharing comments that our viewers and listeners have made about this talk and BYU Idaho students.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] And I think people are going to accuse us of being mean spirited and kind of doing a takedown. Do you have a response to that before we begin? Just maybe a way to set our intentions and preemptively respond to the accusation that we're being mean spirited here.

Carah Burrell [00:07:02] Yeah, it's pretty easy. It's what we always say that it's systems, not people. And where there is a system that whether they marginalize or disenfranchise, you know, different minority sets, whatever they may be, and there are people who are, we're all looking for, you know, love from a creator trying to find her place in the world. And I would hope that people who say that they represent Jesus Christ would give the most loving interpretations of them. But whenever there's somebody who claims to speak for Jesus Christ within this type of systemic, like very authoritarian, high demand religion, it just causes a lot of harm when people say that I'm speaking for that maker that you're out there trying to find love and the ways that you love other people, that's going to be a satanic influence.

Carah Burrell [00:07:45] And it really messes with a lot of people's heads. And overall I'm just in this ex Mormon space to be able to call out where I see people who think that they're speaking for Jesus Christ. Just invite them to really contemplate what they're actually saying and what kind of messages that they are forwarding that could possibly do a lot of harm. So it's not about talking to what's his name, David. It's not about talking to David directly and trying to do a takedown. It's just trying to invite people into like a more open minded space.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] Yeah. And maybe I'll just add whether it's Jeffrey Holland's musket talk at byu, whether it's, you know, Church President Russell and Nelson giving that talk either at BYU Hawaii or BYU Idaho, where you, where he said that the, the, the ban, what was it called? The, the policy that the 2015 exclusion policy was doctrine. Whether it's Boyd K. Packer or you know, other homophobic talks over the years like we've, we've established now Mormon stories that the Mormon Church is worth at least 230, $240 billion thanks to the widow's might report. The church is wealthier than Heavenly Father at this point. They can afford some marketing people or to beef up their correlation department to not allow commencement talks, to not allow conference talks, to not allow devotionals through that are going to cause harm and that are going to cause people to be depressed or anxious or even to not want to live anymore.

Carah Burrell [00:09:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] And so again, it's systems, not people. And this is just a repeated call to the Mormon Church to, to beef up your correlation department and stop letting these types of talks through. And we're going to end on that same theme. But that's my intention, just Mormon Church, you're too wealthy and too powerful to allow your pulpits to be commandeered by hate speech.

Carah Burrell [00:09:46] You've got too much emphasis on calling yourself Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints without the Jesus Christ part. Because again, what he's going to get into this talk is we have to be focusing on the exact right type of Jesus Christ. And I always, from our Rod Meldrum interview, I always hope that if whatever people's faith is doubling down in it is the best faith interpretation of what we think that Jesus would have said about how to Treat people and not the most judgmental one, not the most dogmatic one, but the one that has, yeah. The most, the most love and empathy for whatever position people are in their life. And not a one size fits all type of box.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] And that does the least harm. Like, can't we just have the rule do no harm? You know, can't the church just only allow talks to go through that do no harm? So we, I think we've, we've made our point. Maybe what we should do is just play the first clip now. I guess we should say as a. Just to kind of establish we're not going to be playing the entire one hour devotional. You know what, what he did is it was kind of like give a little bit of a talk, play a song on the piano, give another little bit of the talk, place more on the piano. Right. He kind of did that four or five times. Is that right, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:10:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] So you, you cut out portions from just like the last 10 or 15 minutes.

Carah Burrell [00:11:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] Like towards the end of the talk, right?

Carah Burrell [00:11:04] Yeah. Where I thought that it got really juicy.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Is there anything you want to say about the stuff that.

Carah Burrell [00:11:08] I didn't watch it.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] No, you didn't watch it. Okay. Okay. All right. So yeah, we're just going to be playing kind of the final 15, 10 or 15, maybe 20 minutes of the talk. We're only going to be playing like eight minutes of the total talk. But it's the stuff that got the most play on, on Tick Tock and everywhere else. All right, without any further ado, we're going to play. This is kind of an introduction to David Glenn Hatch's devotional at BYU, Idaho. BYU, Hawaii. Was it April 3rd or April 4th? A couple days ago. So let's go ahead and start it.

David Glen Hatch [00:11:46] My young brothers and sisters. We've just got to stop allowing other people to tell us whether we're good enough, attractive enough, rich enough, famous enough, desirable enough. Stop it. Just stop it. We should only care about what Heavenly Father says about us, that we are of immense worth. In so doing, however, we must be aware of the Great Destroyer who is working daily to destroy your self concept. You know, the Great Destroyer is the great deceiver, the ultimate lying liar who will stop at nothing to separate us from God. His tactics really haven't evolved much since the garden, but he's certainly adept at staying ahead of the curve. The Great Deceiver's specialty is his keen interest in your feelings and opinions and personal preferences. He's quite progressive that way and wants to hear all about it. Your concerns are his concerns. And he knows exactly which rendition of Jesus is pertinent to your cause.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Okay. So, yeah, there's so much that we could, that we could talk about to begin with. I think I wanted to start kind of superficially, just, just by his appearance and his voice and his hair and his clothes. Now that may sound tacky, but when I first saw this clip, I thought for sure it was something out of the 70s or 80s.

Carah Burrell [00:13:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] Like, did you feel that way too?

Carah Burrell [00:13:46] Yeah, yeah. Like especially very performative, very theatrical in a way where he's like. There's been a lot of comments about how he could play the next Satan in the next temple movie. But yeah, he gets into like this, this like, I'm gonna speak like I am Satan, like I'm talking to you like I am the deceiver. And like, doesn't this type of language just roll off the tongue and feel so smooth going down? You know, and, and yes, if you want to start superficially like that, you can keep going on your thought. But I just wanted to add that the, the paradigm I always have to set up for people, whether they've been Mormon or they're not familiar with the church, that the paradigm that he is talking about is all, it's all structured from that Satan has this ability given to him since the, you know, the Garden of Eden, since the war in Heaven, basically, that, that God has given Satan this power to deceive, to test his spirit children on earth.

Carah Burrell [00:14:41] And he's going to lay out for you the tactics, the way that you're going to think of truth. It's going to be so hard to decipher and you've got to stay with us. And so just never forget when you're talking about Mormonism, you're talking about a, a very literal idea that is indoctrinated into people's minds that, that Satan has this power to help you think that you're helping people. If you believe in any kind of liberal ideas, if you're not completely the standard conservative Christian, then there's, there's something wrong with you. You've been deceived by this real palpable satanic power.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] But yeah, you know, we just had Stephen Hasson, world cult expert here. You know, he, he came on your podcast, he came on mine, and you know, he's the, he, he wrote the book Combating Cult Mind Control, but he also came up with the BITE model, which is kind of a four letter acronym to help people become more literate in the tactics of unhealthy organizations or cults. And we all know that the E stands for emotional manipulation. And for me, whether it's his condescending tone, his snarkiness, whether it's invoking this idea of a destroyer, like, it's not just like your elder brother who's trying to, you know, he's using terms like destroyer and deceiver.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] It's hard. It's hard to tease that away as being anything other than emotionally manipulative language to try and strike fear in your heart, to try and make you pay attention, to make you feel afraid. And if we think about Luna, Lindsay Corbin's book Recovering Agency, and Roger Lipton, they talk about dispensing of existence and like, threatening that. That you could be. Your existence, your very existence could be extinguished at some point. That's what destroyer implies.

Carah Burrell [00:16:38] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] So all of that is just super culturally, emotionally manipulative to me and.

Carah Burrell [00:16:46] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it reminds me again of the John Larsen episode that we did. I think that was titled, like, why Some People Stay in the Church, why some Mormons Stay in the Church, and our cognitive biases that are just so fear based about survival. And again, you have this. It's. It's not a fairy tale to Mormons who believe it. It's not just like this thing that you can take up certain pieces of. You know, especially if you're really taught that your internal soul is on the line, that there is the. The. These two op. These two forces that are going to be in opposition at all times.

Carah Burrell [00:17:16] It's this ongoing battle where God will win, but he will let Satan loose with his demons. One third of the host of heaven will be able to these spirit children away. This is a very literal paradigm that Mormons have to operate within. And so you take in your. Your evolutionary biology into that, how you are programmed to be very fearful that your internal soul is on the line in. Yeah, in this paradigm. And it sets people up to not be able to, like, question if things are really authentically true because they are so afraid of the outcome. And I would always just say, like, I would.

Carah Burrell [00:17:49] I always would. I would always hope that if there is a God, that they are propositioning you for the healthiest. Not. Not the damnation that will come to you. Not what. What you should be fearful of, but what you can gain, what you can give, the bliss that you can feel from being in this and not what you should fear.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] Yeah, yeah. Any parent that told a kid, I will destroy you if you don't do What I say, that's, that's an abusive parent.

Carah Burrell [00:18:14] Right? Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] Why, why would, why would God, the most powerful and supposedly loving, the, the literal embodiment of pure love and Jesus is the God of the New Testament, you know, Jehovah. Like, why would that God be allowed to threaten us with our destruction? It's, it is the Mormon God. You see it most clearly in Doctrine and Covenant Section 132, where God tells Emma, if you don't let Joseph take on 30 plus wives, I will destroy you. Emma like says that eight times in the DNC.

Carah Burrell [00:18:46] Yeah, and again, you can, you can, if you know about proof texting, you can, you can cherry pick just about any type of God that you want, whether you're Christian, whatever, out of, out of the Old Testament, New Testament, dnc, pearl of great price, modern revelation. You can literally cherry pick whatever type of super loving or super destroying God, depending on what collection of scripture you're going to, yeah, make, make that God out to be.

Carah Burrell [00:19:12] And I, I just always would really hope that people would take the best, the, the best faith interpretation of just a God that's filled with grace and, and love and empathy and sees you as the product of, of the situation that he planted you in and not that you have to fit yourself into a very square peg round hole. And might I also just mention that this is why I love being in this, this ex Mormon space. The space of people questioning their faith and helping people feel like they're not taking crazy pills. Um, because it is so brave to be able to finally be like, I am a square peg in this round hole.

Carah Burrell [00:19:45] Like this, this spirituality that I'm being offered here is not actually fulfilling. And so if people are just, there are people who are listening to this talk and not connecting with it, it's for good reason. You know, this, this is not spiritually edifying, even if I was on the church.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] And that's a great segue. What, what now I'm going to do is share some comments that people sent me or that they posted to, you know, wherever this video was posted. And the first one I'm just going to give maybe a trigger warning we're going to be talking about suicide because there's some cultural context at BYU Hawaii that I think most people aren't, aren't familiar of. But, but the first several people that sent me this clip made this comment to me and I'll just read it. Somebody wrote to me, I graduated last semester, but I still have heavy contact with lots of students there at byu Idaho.

Student Walkouts and Campus Controversy

John Dehlin [00:20:37] They told me that some students walked out during this speech and it has brought up a lot of controversy, even among administration and teachers. This all comes at the sad news of a student who died by suicide about a week ago. Everyone thought that going to a school devotional would help lighten the mood. Sadly, it's done the opposite.

Carah Burrell [00:20:59] That's heartbreaking. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] So you think about how horrific this talk, just the two minutes you've seen, it gets worse. But if you, that that in and of itself is horrific. But if you think about the context that literally this BYU Hawaii community was reeling from the death by suicide of a student, they all come to this devotional seeking uplift, seeking spiritual edification, and instead they get this smarmy, sanctimonious, over dramatic drama, tone deaf, preachy, threatening speech. It's, it's just, it's unconscionable for a $250 billion corporate organization to be that irresponsible even not to let alone to the, you know, not just to the world, but to the BYU Hawaii community itself.

Carah Burrell [00:21:52] And that's why it's so important to be able to take your spirituality back in your own hands. Because so much of it is outsourced in the church that this person, and they have the microphone, somebody said that this should be the speaker that they speak with priesthood authority, they have some type of mantle. And like you really have to take back your spirituality. Stop outsourcing these pathways to people thinking that the, whatever they're saying, like he's going to go on into this talk. Like, you need to trust us, that you'll know what your maker has to say about you through the words I'm going to say right now. And if you don't trust it, you're deceived. Like, don't you know, like, if you feel like you don't, you don't like what I'm saying right now. That means you're deceived.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] Like that's the destroyer that has your heart in your mind.

Carah Burrell [00:22:31] Yeah, that's baked in.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] But Carah, I think you would agree what's complicated is these are BYU Hawaii students. These are 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds. They may not have found nuance ho yet they may have not found CES letter Mormon stories. So a lot of them put their full faith and trust in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So when God's one true church at one of God's four true universities picks a commencement speaker for a very special sacred time and event, you're going to Be putting your full faith and trust.

Carah Burrell [00:23:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] In who that speaker is. And that's why you, we can tell them that they need to take back their, you know, spiritual empowerment. But they're not listening because they're, they're in the bubble. Right. They're in the bite bubble. Their, their behavior is being controlled by the limited information. They have to keep their thoughts from ever wandering into what Nuanceo has to says say isn't that it's complicated. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:23:29] Yeah. But somebody just wants to send me an email list of everyone with a registered BYU Hawaii email. I'll send them the video of this directly. I'll be like, it is, it's, it's the entire Mormon system. It's a high demand, fundamentals, religion. It's a, it's a church that's also an organization that you have reduced tuition to go and to go to attend to school to get a great degree. It's that entire system that people are not able to feel like they have a license to question things that don't spiritually align for them anymore.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] Yeah. It's too much.

Carah Burrell [00:24:00] It's too much. But it's heartbreaking. But we're here for you.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] So, so if you don't believe us that this speech is problematic, we're going to show you a little bit of evidence. You know, immediately people shared the, the YouTube link to this and the Facebook link to this. The BYU Hawaii has its own YouTube page and its own Facebook page. And then immediately these links weren't working. So it seems like the links have gone back and forth a little bit. But what I can show you is that at the current moment, this talk has been taken down from the BYU Hawaii Facebook Live page. I'm showing a screenshot there. I very. I. This is how I first watched it from the Facebook page on BYU Hawaii.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] It's now been taken down. So that's validation that, that the backlash has been both the administratively and student body and the Internet at large. The backlash has been large. But also at least one YouTube link that we have shows that, that this video has been made private.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] So that's. But, but then if you go to another YouTube page on the BYU Hawaii YouTube page, it's still available, which is kind of mind blowing. So I don't know if that's just an error on their part. Why would they take it down in a couple places but leave it up in another? Is it just the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing? Are they just unaware? And you know, my biggest question is will this YouTube showing on the BYU Hawaii YouTube page, will it be gone soon after, you know, this podcast airs? I think to, to be seen. What's your prediction, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:25:41] I think when it was up and I was able to watch it, the comments were, yeah, they were not very positive under the talk. And so I would assume they took it down so that they could have somebody go through, filter the comments, delete comments and then put it back up. Maybe.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] Yeah, maybe so maybe they, maybe they took. That's a good point. Maybe they only took it down to be able to, to censor the comments. But, but also I think there's been backlash. So let's just share so I can say my DMs lit up with BYU Hawaii students who listen to Mormon stories, who were shocked and disgusted, many of them who walked out or sobbed during this presentation and they told me that in their dms. I'll just share a couple more DMS that I received.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] Ward wrote, I'm still a member of the church, but mate, the way this bloke is straight weird. So that's an active, believing member that says they hated this talk. Michelle Marquis Gardner writes, the delivery of his talk was too pushed. It's like he was acting on stage. I mean he is, he is in the, in the performing arts. I guess that's stereotyping him. But we're going to see so many comments about kind of him bringing his dramatic flair right to the talk. Any. Anything you want to say about that?

Carah Burrell [00:26:59] Yeah, all I have to say about that is leave the dramatic flair, leave like the pushiness, leave whatever you're dealing with, personal and projections about what people need to hear. I think he needs to do some inner work first before he is any kind of spiritual leader at a church school like that.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] And we'll be covering that towards the end. We've got a few comments that focus on that. Another person writes, Michelle writes, yeah, did I already read this one? Delivery's talk was too pushed. Meg Nog, 7, writes, watching patronizing tone may be key to having more people listen with empathy. So she's basically, basically saying get rid of your patronizing tone and if you are able to show more empathy, more people will listen. So we're trying to include as at least many constructive. What I did is I went on Instagram on the Mormon Stories podcast Instagram account and I just solicited constructive feedback. And I think Meg is trying to give constructive feedback. She's basically saying be less patronizing and more people will be open. That's true. Right, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:28:03] Yeah. I think generally we're always just. We know that the church will be around forever. And what else does this podcast do? What else are we actually trying to do is just try to make Mormonism a healthier place to belong to. Sorry, I've said that a million times. But yeah, it's, it's again, where people get their spiritual edification. It's, it can be tantamount to spiritual abuse sometimes. So it's good to call things out.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] Yeah. So this next comment, I am self conscious about sharing, but it is the number one comment I got. And even though it's going to come across as mean, I'm not saying it, I would never say this, but I feel like if it's the most common reaction I got, I feel an obligation to share it. And so, Carrie, you can tell me if you think this is over the top. Somebody wrote, dude, he's so effing creepy. And that word creepy. I probably got a hundred messages using the word creepy. Now. Like, is that just. I would say, Carah, isn't that just mean spirited? But like a hundred people wrote it, so what do we make of that?

Carah Burrell [00:29:09] I mean, I'm thinking of my Mormon brain and sometimes it's like, oh, well, people who don't want to hear the Lord's words are gonna, they're gonna throw around whatever kind of ad hominem that they can. But no, it really speaks again to his presentation and just his forceful language that I think again, just doesn't really belong in a place of what we just explained the context of when that speech was given. It just feels very out of place for people when they're going to feel like they're being spoken to by a messenger from God.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] You know, that's such a great point. Like, what are the college years but some of your most vulnerable years, to be away from your parents, to be away from your home, to explore and develop your identity. But. But it's also an emotional time. Your brain's not even fully formed until you're like 26. So you're like 18, 19, 20 away from home the first time, trying to figure out who you really are and some guy is giving a super creepy, emotional, emotionally manipulative speech that's insulting and degrading and condescending and undermining to self efficacy. I think that's why so many people use such a harsh word, is creepy.

Carah Burrell [00:30:19] Yeah. What do you mean by undermining self efficacy?

John Dehlin [00:30:23] So, well, we'll get to this. But like he's basically saying he's demonizing people, developing their own sense of self, knowledge of self awareness of self identity, and basically saying, we need God in Jesus's identity. Don't develop and trust your own inner voice. I'm kind of reflecting a theme you've also shared.

Carah Burrell [00:30:45] Yeah, and I always have to really, this always comes back. If there's like one thing I could ever say to Mormons, it always comes down to the, the ideas about what you think God and Jesus want out of you, their expectations, any shame you feel. Whatever your construct of who God and Jesus Christ are is always going to be coming through what the, what the canonized scripture that's been collected over thousands of years has to say, what's been put in there, what hasn't been, what again, has been cherry picked and then what has been discarded, doctrine that was supposed to never be changed. And then what is upheld.

Carah Burrell [00:31:23] And as we know, as time goes on, not only does it change, but it is a fundamental of the church that if people just don't like it, like if somebody says let who is the prophet that was like no birth control and over time that's going to change. Or they say no hunting and then the membership wants to hunt. Like this is, this is a lot more of a church that organically kind of changes with the times instead of staying fundamentally to God or Jesus are always like this. It changes with the context and the culture around it. We know that for a fact. And so this idea that just stay with God, stay with Jesus, it's always going to be coming through like really this strong, strong filter of what these men have to say, especially in reaction to the culture.

Carah Burrell [00:32:11] Like, don't forget that part. It is it. There's, you can't have one without the other. You can't pick up one side of the stick without picking up the other side. What they're saying to you is a reaction of the culture.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] Yeah, yeah. And when the church, unfortunately, this is the way just all organizations work. The church isn't giving advice based on what's in the best interest of each individual student. They literally can't do that. But even if they could, the way corporate churches are motivated and incentivized, they're going to be giving their members the advice and the instruction that benefits the church, that leads to more devotion to the church, that leads to more tithing to the church, that leads to obedience to the church. And in that sense, you can't really trust what they want from you because they're, they're, they're operating in their own best Interest, their own self interest, and then it's filtered by, by this guy's own biases and, and, and problems and, and, you know, issues.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] And we'll be talking about that as well. A couple other comments that I'll just share. Several people referenced Satan in the temple ceremony. So kind of the Michael Balam kind of satanic character. And, and they.

Carah Burrell [00:33:23] Can we do my impression?

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:33:25] You know, where he turns and he's like, if any of the people in this temple, in this state don't live up to their covenants, they'll be under my power. Like, yeah, it's definitely got that whole, like, I'm a snake.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Yeah. So several people mentioned snakes or serpents and just infinite people mentioned Satan in the temple ceremony. So they, they, you know, one commenter wrote, this dude seems like a good candidate to act as Satan in the next temple movie. Another person wrote, I can't stand how condescending he sounds. Another wrote, oh, and this is just kind of like extra information about him. I will say I didn't want to be petty, so I'm not including. I had a close family member of his reach out to me and share private information about what he and his family are like.

Carah Burrell [00:34:13] John doesn't want to be petty. Head to the Nuance Hall YouTube channel. I'll share all the information.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] Yeah, no, but, but a close family member of his reached out to me and said, don't use my name, but let me dish the dirt on this guy. And I'm not going to share it other than to say that, you know, there, there, there's much that I could have shared about him that I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] But, but this person writes that this guy also publicly shamed Yujia Wang, one of the best penis in the world, at the Utah Music Teachers Association Fall conference in his session a few years back for, let's just say, quote, dressing immodestly, and said that we shouldn't allow children to attend her concerts because of the way she dresses. I hope you can get him on the podcast. He probably won't come on the podcast, although the family member said he would never turn down any opportunity to have that visibility. So we'll see. Maybe he'll surprise us. But the point is, he has publicly shamed non LDS performers and entertainers for not living up to what Mormon dress code standards like, yeah, that's not good.

Carah Burrell [00:35:21] Yeah, everyone wants to just rewind what John just said, that he, he is a. Sounds like a person who will not turn down any opportunity to be in the limelight. So just extrapolate that and then we don't have to read the DM from the family member. You can just fill in your mind the paragraphs on that kind of point. So it's a good opportunity. Again, like, why is he sounding so condescending and why is he kind of putting on this performance and stuff? Like, I just, I think it reads into like a personality issue that people in a position of power in the church where they get a pulpit, they get an audience of people who are there to listen and assume that what they have to say is from God and Jesus Christ and they take that opportunity to kind of from an ego place.

Carah Burrell [00:36:09] I think that like, yeah, great, I'll speak on behalf of the Creator of the universe with a listening audience of like young, undeveloped minds.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] Vulnerable. Yeah, yeah, right after death by suicide of the community.

Carah Burrell [00:36:22] Yeah, I mean, I've given speeches to like ex Mormon teenagers and I feel so, like, I don't want to tell you guys anything to think. I just want to like tell you how to think and even then, please question me yourself. And I don't know any, you know, it's, it's difficult to talk to people and speak with any kind of authority over what they should be doing with their lives. But some people, some people love it. They really love it. And monetarily especially so.

Clip Two: Demonizing Liberals and Progressive Members

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Okay, so let's go ahead and go to the next. The second of four clips and we've titled this one. Faithful Latter Day Saints are led astray by a loving non judgmental liberal Jesus, AKA Satan in disguise. Let's roll the tape.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:37:04] Lately it is likely to be a socially relevant liberal Jesus who somehow cares more about your truth than the truth. He came to personify, proclaim and die for. The deceiver dishes out a new gospel. And I hate this. Just so you know, I don't like that word hate, but this one thing I do hate.

Video Clip 1 [00:37:32] The gospel of your own truth. You ever heard it, brothers and sisters? Oh, my truth is. And then he whispers to all of us, ah, that's much better. To be clear, he won't tell you to give up your faith in Jesus, but that obviously some of his outdated theology needs revamping because it no longer works. Today a good chunk of it is offensive enough to be considered a hate crime.

Video Clip 1 [00:38:05] Especially that bit about marriage and sexuality. I mean, Jesus told his followers to love one another, not judge one another, right? So who are you to judge how others love? That's just how stealthily and insidiously the Father of lies leads members of this Church astray. He distorts God's word and presents new, different gospel to each generation. And he knows how to place deceit in our hearts.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] Oh my gosh, there's so much there.

Carah Burrell [00:38:46] It really breaks my heart. Like I can't, I would just, I don't know, check your privilege sometimes, but that just, that hurts.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] Yeah, that's sad. So like, like one of the first things right off the bat is he mentions the word liberal. And I know that on Mormon stories and in other places we use that term progressive and liberal to mean kind of like nuanced Mormons like you know, Terrell Givens or Fiona Givens or Patrick Mason or whoever. But when BYU Hawaii students or your average orthodox Mormon hears the word liberal, Carol, what, what are the. What, what, what is, how does that register in their minds? What do they think of?

Carah Burrell [00:39:28] Oh, just like a leftist. Yeah, yeah, just somebody who's on time, on terms with like social justice movements. Again there's this idea that the ways of God are above the ways of the world. So if they're not on board with social justice movements and any that have existed since the beginning of time to give you any kind of the rights that you enjoy today in any way, shape and form, basically it doesn't need to be this demonized just like thing for, for leftists in political circles it's.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Yeah, but, but even in addition, you know, stipulating that we at Mormon stories are like party officially party neutral, we don't believe that either Democrat or Republican party are true parties. We believe there are good reasons to be on either side of the political aisle or on both sides of political aisle.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] You know, obviously the Mormon church and the Mormon people in the United States are some of the strongest Republican supporters, the strongest Donald Trump supporters, the strongest MAGA supporters. And so as soon as you as a speaker in a public setting, in a church setting, start talking about liberalism in a degraded way, you're alienating all the students that, that feel more pulled or affiliated with progressive or liberal leaning or Democratic politics than conservative politics. And this undermines the church's own best interest because one of the reasons that, that youth and 20 somethings and 30 somethings are fleeing organized religion is because conservative religions in the United States have become too closely affiliated with conservative politics.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] And it's made people who have more liberal politics feel like they don't belong in those religions. And so one of the, one of the, you know, first comments that was received during this part was leave politics out of church related talks. And I, I do think that that's counterproductive. I think that that that hurts the church, but it also hurts everybody who thinks they belong in the church. But now all of a sudden, if they have more progressive or liberal leaning political ideologies, they feel denigrated. Right?

Carah Burrell [00:41:43] Like why it is. John won't let me sing my version of Beauty and the Beast that I changed into. But I just, whenever I. It's the ongoing. No, I won't, but it's the, it's the forever. It just goes tale as old as time. Like this has been the argument since, I don't know, beginning of religion that you're going to have a progressive faction, you're going to have a traditionalist faction. And whether it's, you know, 2023, American politics get all wrapped up in this. People have so much at stake, thinking that their ideology, their way of approaching who Jesus Christ is and what he wants for the country, what he wants for people individually, what he wants for them spiritually, eternally, that there's always going to be these, these dividing factions and stuff.

Carah Burrell [00:42:23] Yeah, it's just going to be a tale as old as time. And the only way to actually make our way through it and say, well, who is this Jesus? What does he actually want is, is to not go this divisive tribal route, not go this liberal Jesus. And then the right Jesus or whatever, like there's the only Jesus that really exists is the one that we are able to proof text out of our own biases, biases and desires. Because yeah, he's, he's, he's posing this as if that liberals are creating their own Jesus in their own minds, but we all create our own God out of what our deeply held beliefs are.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] Totally. Another comment that was made was this us versus them is not a constructive conversation and it's not Christlike. I think that's a really good point. You know, he talks about this, this theme in this clip. There's so much in this clip, he talks, he's, he derides this idea of your truth. He says he hates that idea of there being kind of my truth and your truth and relative truth.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] He go, you know, and, and like, you know, I remember going to BYU in the 1990s and this idea of moral relativism being really decried as if there's God's one true truth, one true truth. And those of us who are faithful and righteous can access it. And then anybody else who doesn't recognize the one true truth is mistaken. But, but the whole idea of postmodern philosophy as I understand it, is that everybody views anything through their own context, through their own upbringing, through their own psychology, through their own life experience and their own lens. And you get what, what are there, 4 million Mormons? You get 4 million Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] You get 4 million different Gospels of Mormonism. You get 15 First Presidency members and Quorum of the 12 members. You literally get 15 different versions of what the gospel is. And if that's not enough, you just have to look at. He talks about the gospel as if it's monolithic. And we've always known it from the very start, since Joseph Smith, since Jesus came down and then Joseph Smith restored it. And we all know what the gospel is, but then every generation tries to make it sound like the gospel needs to be changed. Well, guess what, brother?

John Dehlin [00:44:45] Which version of Mormonism are you talking about? Are you talking about the treasure digging, you know, pre1830 Mormonism with. With folk magic and pirates and buried treasure? Are you talking about the 1830-1834 version of Mormonism that was like a Protestant Christianity with the trinitarian God? Are you talking about the Nauvoo Mormonism where it expands to, like, polygamy and three degrees of glory and baptisms for the dead? Are you talking about, you know, Brigham Young's Adam God theory and blood atonement gospel? Or are you going to go to 1890 when polygamy was taken away and all of a sudden that doctrine changes by the church, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Or the racist, you know, the. The racist Mormonism that was doctrine until it wasn't doctrine and then was downgraded to policy ex post facto post 1978, and even now. You've seen the church's views on LGBT people changed dramatically over the past 20 years. Their views on women, their views on the atonement. John Larsen always makes the point that you literally can't name one core Mormon doctrine that hasn't changed substantively, you know, between the beginning of the church and now, including the Godhead, including the Book of Mormon being changed to describe the Godhead differently, including the atonement. All of it. So what. What fantasy world is this guy living in talking about Mormon doctrine as if it's monolithic and. And universally understood and, and consistent.

Carah Burrell [00:46:16] That's the information control, right? Basically. Like, I would have believed that when I was Mormon, I would have been definitely demon demonizing. I was taught as a very conservative Mormon girl to think that I was. I was never the moral relativist. That is a naughty, terrible thing to be right of Everything you described. But then the more information you get and the more. This is why I always say that like fair Mormon and Mormon apologetics is the honest truth seekers. Like last pit stop on the road out is because you realize that is the moral relativist and it actually is bad because there is no.

Carah Burrell [00:46:50] Sam Shelley has a great TikTok this week about, like, I don't know about you guys, but I think that anytime a prophet says that he needs to marry underage girls or teenagers, I'm just going to raw dog that. I don't need any context ever for that. I don't need any context for a person to put a stone in a hat and deceive people through illegal treasure digging and then be tried and found guilty in a court and then start a religion through those same mechanisms and then be told to reinterpret it as a preparatory gospel. There's a. There's always going to be reinterpretation of the prophecies that were never fulfilled, were for because blank.

Carah Burrell [00:47:25] Whatever it is, it still ends up with the church being true. And so it's. It really is everything you just said. That was a fantastic rant, John. I couldn't say it better myself, but it really is this awakening to the information that's been hidden to you where you do say the truth. The truth of the matter is that this is what history has to say. This is the system that I wouldn't put up with if Warren Jeff stood it. This is a system that I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I'm not actually allowed to say. You guys are the ones who keep changing and saying it's okay when you do it.

Carah Burrell [00:47:53] And I just have to keep believing. I have to believe no matter what. Um, yeah. And it's again, and it completely makes you outsource the spirituality that you would hope to. Can you really feel that. That in tune with your maker if you're getting so many conflicting messages about who God is and what he wants from you? Like, it'll drive you crazy.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] Yeah. The next thing he does that's just probably the most outrageous part of the whole talk is he kind of throws LGBTQ people and same sex marriage completely under the bus. And he kind of does it in a subtle way where he mocks people. I mean, literally, if there's something extremely literal that Jesus said, he said, don't judge. Like, didn't Jesus literally say, judge not,

Clip Three: Mocking LGBTQ People and Judgment

Carah Burrell [00:48:37] Judge not lest ye be judged?

John Dehlin [00:48:39] Like, it's. He couldn't have been more clear. And yet he mocks people that take Jesus at his word and who say, don't judge LGBT people and don't judge LGBT people who choose to enter into legal same sex love and marriage. And he just completely mocks that and in the process mocks Jesus who, you know, in some of Jesus's most central core teachings, all in the name of Jesus. Like, isn't that put your brain in a pretzel?

Carah Burrell [00:49:11] Yeah. Again, you can figure out, you can construct Jesus to be whatever guy you want him to be based on what is most important to you. You can use the words of Jesus to benefit your argument and then even twist them to benefit and yeah. Literally harm people. Literally make them think that their maker, their savior doesn't accept them as they are. It's heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] Yeah. And then the other thing that he does is he mocks the idea that you shouldn't be able to judge other people's love. I'm like, really? So if you flip that as to what he's really saying is he's saying Christians and Mormons in particular need to preserve the right to judge other people's love choices. Like, can you imagine? Is there anything more outrageous and kind of, I don't want to say disgusting, because that's a hyperbolic word, but it is a revolting idea that he is literally advocating for the right and the Christ based right to condemn other people's love choices.

Carah Burrell [00:50:17] Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong, John, but isn't this the same church that said that the law of heaven is always polygamy and that the very churches that I know, I'm like, we're talking about the same church. Right? We're talking about the church that literally fought, that used to condemn monogamy. Yeah, that used to. That used to. They, they, they would have been on almost that side of the let's love and let's form the type of relationships and marriages that are like most advantageous, whether religiously or whatever, to the system that they're in. And so it is just very interesting that it's of all the church, this isn't just a regular Christian church. This is specifically the Mormon church that practiced polygamy for so long and still has it as part of their doctrine that understands that there are different types of experiencing love outside of just a male, female, monogamous coupleship, you know?

John Dehlin [00:51:06] Yeah. And I guess he comes by it honestly because our church has a very long tradition of judging the way people love. Because if you go to the 19th century, general authorities are literally condemning monogamy. Actually, the church starts by condemning polygamy, then it progresses to condemn monogamy, and now it's reverted to approving only heteronormative relationships and condemning everything else. So he comes by the condemning of people's love choices very, very sadly. He comes by that very, very normally and honestly because it's what our church leaders, if they've been consistent in anything. Mormon church leaders for 200 plus years have been condemning people's love choices.

Carah Burrell [00:51:54] Yeah, that's a really funny point. It's consistent to condemn people's love choices, but not consistent on what those choices are or are not.

John Dehlin [00:52:03] Yeah, yeah, totally.

Carah Burrell [00:52:04] It's the hatred again. That's why if this is on my YouTube channel, I'm planning on naming it Susanami of Hate at BYU Hawaii. Because it's again, it's. It's looking at the worst faith interpretation of things. You haven't walked in other people's shoes. You don't know what they've been through. You don't know, for instance, why people like they have such a.

Carah Burrell [00:52:24] A satanic influence of not looking at the materialistic view that's, that's of the devil to look at things of just what is. What does the science say? What are people saying about why they are gay? And that's not something that they ch. But they want to come at it as well. If you're choosing something that our God at this current time and place is saying is not right and not good. I know Jesus didn't technically say anything about it in the Bible, but this goes out of alignment of what we understand is the plan of happiness, the plan of salvation. You don't fit in alignment with it.

Carah Burrell [00:52:51] And to very. Yeah, just give this horrible bad faith interpretation, this horrible really, really dogmatic and flexible approach again that's just influenced by this magical thinking, these satanic powers at large, all for an interpretation to. To get out of it what you want on all just a con, a condemnation of anything, but not from a place of love. Every single thing you just mentioned about condemning the way people have relationships, I was like, I don't recognize anything Jesusy in that.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] Exactly. Where's the love? And we. We probably don't need to mention to our audience, but maybe our never Mormon audience doesn't know this or new. New listeners who are joining us don't know. For the. Since 2008, basically. So for the past, oh, 13, 14 years, 15 years, the Mormon Church has had an epidemic of depression, anxiety and suicide attempts, homelessness and suicidal completions of LGBTQ youth and young adults. So it's just so bizarre that in the name of Jesus, he's going to be sending a message to vulnerable youth and young adults at a college setting, at least 5 to 10 to even 15% who are on the LGBTQ spectrum.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] He's delivering homophobic messages that are kind of dog whistley and subtle, but he's delivering clear homophobic messages that are going to increase suicidality amongst the people who listen to his rant in the aftermath of a member of the BYU Hawaii community already dying by suicide. So it's just horrific on all those levels.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] For the sake of time, let's go ahead and go to a couple more comments which Jesus is more biblically consistent, one commenter wrote. He needs to examine his opinions before presenting them as fact. Biblically speaking, there's a lot more evidence for a progressive liberal Jesus than whatever conservative angry Jesus this guy is touting. The Jesus of the New Testament was all about kindness. He ignored the law of Moses to extend mercy to the woman taken in adultery, he took on the religious leaders of the day, he forgave his executioners, etc. This Jesus brother Hatch champions seems to be the Jesus of the Doctrine and Covenants who is vindictive, angry and violent.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] And I'd say the Old Testament as well. The Jesus who threatens you with eternal destruction if you don't obey the prophet. His rhetoric isn't unique though. If you attend any elders quorum meetings in the Mormon Church these days, you hear this kind of rhetoric. It was only a matter of time till it found its way to a bigger stage. Maybe a bit long winded for a Mormon Stories podcast. No, it's not, apparently. But that's what I think about the

Carah Burrell [00:55:46] nothing's too long winded for a Mormon

John Dehlin [00:55:48] stories, but a bump, another person wrote. Geez, what's what he's describing as a liberal gospel of Jesus Christ is actually the true gospel of Jesus Christ that he purposefully taught in parables to preserve his most important messages. And the root of those are to become one, find the light from within, infinite love, etc. Jesus was actually fighting for freedom of speech and belief and love. He never wanted people to alter his words and put him on a pedestal. The true corruption and idealization of Jesus Christ came when Catholic Church proclaimed to have his authority. But really the authority, our own authority. And that's your point that you make so well, Carah.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Our own authority has been with each individual the whole time, ever since we came from the same source. These Mormons have the meaning of Jesus Severely twisted. Can't believe that's from this year. Seems like a video from 80s spitting that type of patriarchal BS. I'll say they get with the times way too late.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] That itself proves the church to be false because they miss the wave and they join waves. But that's not okay, because isn't God the same yesterday, today, and forever? Yes, but not in the Mormon Church. A few more quick comments. I'll share. Megan Westbrook, 27, writes, Take a few hours to meet with some LGBTQ plus people. I think he knows some LGBTQ plus people.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] But she says, take some time to meet with them, especially those who have left the church to hear their story. So we're. We're bumping up against time, Carah, but any quick reactions to those quotes?

Carah Burrell [00:57:38] Yeah, I like the way that commenter said that. Because we think of when you hear the word Jesus, it's going to be whatever you've been conditioned to think about him, you know, and like, Jesus is really just the person saying the kingdom of God is within. And all of these other, Other. Other labels and other sacraments and rituals and everything else that's tacked onto it, I think is just. It really just speaks to the power of religion as a corporation, as something that can sell you your salvation instead of, there's no money in telling you that. It's. That it's within. There's money in telling you you need to meet in this chapel and this is where Jesus is found. There's no money in telling you that.

David Glen Hatch [00:58:21] It's.

Carah Burrell [00:58:21] It's in a forest. It's in your bedroom. It's in your heart.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] It's.

Carah Burrell [00:58:25] It's inside you the whole time.

John Dehlin [00:58:26] And, and that's ironic because Jesus himself said, the kingdom of God is where? Within? Did he mean within the corporation, the president of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Saints?

Carah Burrell [00:58:35] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] And what did he mean?

Carah Burrell [00:58:37] I know. He just meant that, like the.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] Search your soul. Right? Search your heart, search your soul, and if you find me there, you'll search no more.

Carah Burrell [00:58:46] Yeah. And it's just a universal kind of teaching of all kinds of enlightened leaders throughout time.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] I missed my Brian. Brian Adams. My Brian Adams reference.

Carah Burrell [00:58:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] I would tell me it's not worth dying for.

Carah Burrell [00:59:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Now I sing. I don't let you sing. But then I sing nice. All right. Okay, let's go to the next clip. We're on to our third clip. And

David Glen Hatch [00:59:12] the.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] The title for the clip is Focus on Jesus and the Gospel. To not be deceived or be separated from God. Forever.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:59:21] How to place deceit in our hearts. He's well acquainted with our carnal desire to rule and worship ourselves, and he's happy to show us how. Simply put, Satan wants to destroy people. He wants to thwart God's kingdom and purposes and plans. He wants to hurt the people God creates and loves. He wants to wreak havoc on those who are chosen by discouraging, disarming, and derailing us.

Video Clip 2 [00:59:57] He wants to confuse people and lead them away from the truth of who God is. He wants to kill and destroy the soul of every man, woman, and child. But guess what? We don't have to be duped. Jesus told his disciples, you remember Matthew 24, take heed that no man deceive you.

Video Clip 2 [01:00:23] And I might want to add, he's not even a man. This warning is applicable to every biblical topic and all aspects of our daily Christian walk. There's only one way to prevent the great deceiver from having great influence in our lives.

Video Clip 2 [01:00:43] We must focus on Jesus the Christ, his truth, his words, and the gospel he came to proclaim and die for, so that you and I would never again be separated from God.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] All right, Carah, what are your. What are your immediate reactions to that?

Carah Burrell [01:01:12] Oh, it's. It's a bunch of word salad, gobbledygook of dab, dab, dab, dab. But if we actually want to define terms, I think we've said a lot of the things. Let me just reiterate again. We're talking about the system in which he's saying that just follow the truth as it's revealed. Don't find your own truth and path. But. Okay, can you. Can you expand a little bit about that truth and where it's come from? Oh, it's come from a prophet like Joseph Smith, who, when he was revealing the truth, like in the Book of Mormon, straight from God's brain through these golden plates. He's. He can't even get the nature of the Godhead correctly. And that's the. That's the founder of the religion. That's the. That's the restorer of the.

David Glen Hatch [01:01:51] The.

Carah Burrell [01:01:51] This entire gospel that it's. That we're saying, follow the truth. And Joseph Smith can't even get so many of these things correct when he's given direct revelation. And so it's this. Really, it would be so nice if we could just say, yes, follow the truth as revealed by Jesus Christ. If there was no contradictions, if there was just one clear path that has never come in conflict with anything that another prophet proclaimer. Of truth has also said, but we know that's not the system of Mormonism that we live in. And so what he's, what he's proposing here, it would be a really nice idea. But again, that's never going to be the Mormon Church, not from the foundation of Joseph Smith, not till today.

Carah Burrell [01:02:27] And so the only place that I think you can really go is just sit with what actually resonates with you and be open to. It's not, it's not a matter of making up, you know, your own liberal Jesus that suits your ideologies. It's what causes the least amount of harm and what makes you feel like, actually expands your, your, your sense of loving one another in this world. Because you're not going to get it from this contradictory, like, we've been, like we've been reiterating bad faith interpretation of, of, of condemning people's choices and, and judging them for what they do. It's that, that's not going to come from that. It's going to come from ignoring that and, and going a little bit more within, you know, what are your thoughts, John?

John Dehlin [01:03:12] For me, he starts out that segment by talking about carnal desire. And that's right on the heels of making a veiled or not so veiled condemnation of same sex love.

Carah Burrell [01:03:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] And same sex marriage. And what clearly for me is going on here is he's attacking the LGBT community again and addressing youth and adults in his words. You know, he talks about trying to, you know, the adversary, the destroyer, wreaking havoc and confusing people. And what he means by that is that that when people are starting to discover their sexuality, their, their sexual identity or their gender identity, that in his mind he's trying to pair that with the idea that a destroying deceiver is trying to hurt and confuse and ultimately destroy people. And so for me, when he talks about wreaking havoc and thwarting God's, you know, plan and Satan, he's basically saying, any of you who are questioning your sexuality, who are, who are questioning your gender identity, that do not be deceived, do not be confused, that is Satan trying to lead you down to hell.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] And, and, and so for me, that's just, it's veiled language, it's kind of dog whistle. But it's some of the most damaging and destructive language that can be used, you know, in the modern day or in any day. And it's especially destructive given that, you know, a BYU Hawaii student died by suicide just within the previous week and that probably 10 to 15% of the students listening who went to that devotional for solace and consolation and comfort are now having to be subjected to homophobic messages that make them feel anxiety, depression, or even gives them suicidal ideation. So for me, this was the. The low light of the entire talk.

Carah Burrell [01:05:19] Yeah, couldn't agree more.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Yeah. So we'll go ahead and share maybe a couple other quotes that people shared. The blonde chef wrote, I think the LDS Church knows all about using a modified version of Jesus. So that's basically just this idea that, you know, he. It's. It's pot. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

Carah Burrell [01:05:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:41] You know, I think that's a good point. Dear Mormon Me, we love Dear Mormon Me, she writes, the way he describes Satan makes Satan and God indistinguishable. If Satan is so tricky as he claims, how is he so sure his words are God's and not Satan? You know? Thank you, Dear Mormon Me. And please do check out Dear Mormon Me's Instagram channel. She does really good work. So those are the. The main comments we have. And I think just for the sake of time care, let's go ahead and go to the fourth clip. Is that okay?

Carah Burrell [01:06:14] Yeah.

Clip Four: Final Segment and Closing Reactions

John Dehlin [01:06:15] All right, so this is the fourth and final clip from the talk.

David Glen Hatch [01:06:19] Remember that when the great clouds of life appear, always remember that the master understands, for he has already experienced these things. He. Is the perfect example for us to follow and will always be here for us if we but allow him to be the great dominating force in our lives. No, he's not going to barge into our lives, but he does stand at the door and knocks. You and I must let him in. One of my very favorite scriptures for many, many years in the Gospel of John, chapter 15, verse 5. And I want you all to remember this, remember this daily, because I've learned this principle through my life and it's so completely true. In John chapter 15, 5, the Savior said, I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me and I in him. The same bringeth forth much fruit, for without me, ye can do nothing.

Carah Burrell [01:08:03] That was his audition for Satan in the temple movie, right?

John Dehlin [01:08:07] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:08:07] He sent that real in to that.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] That part of the temple ceremony where Satan's like, if you do not do everything that I say, you will be in my power. Right?

Carah Burrell [01:08:15] Yeah. Yeah. Especially that makes sense when you're talking about a church that started on the presupposition that all other churches are an abomination before God. And here is the only place you find the true ordinances here's the only true place that you can become like God and know his true, his true work and his glory is all going to be found right here. And without him, you are nothing. And we, back when we were talking about the, the tools of undue influence and John Larsen episode about our, our biases that are going to be built in, it's so, it's, it's so core to this high demand fundamentalist church teachings to make you really feel like you can be nothing without this, this gospel, these ordinances.

Carah Burrell [01:08:59] Just like I've, I've spoken about before. The recent talk that I mentioned on my channel about it's, it's, they're getting a lot more brazen by saying if you have a problem with the church, you have a problem with Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, that, that's what's most problematic for me. You know, this is the part where I think he's actually being the most sincere and the most vulnerable. He even gets a little bit emotional and he basically sets up this idea that Jesus the Master understands he's the perfect example. You know, you know, you need him to be able to achieve your goals. And you know, only through him will you be able to do anything. But the problem is, as you've noted previously and as we've tried to note a lot on Mormon Stories podcast, you don't, you don't get to decide what Jesus wants for you or what Jesus's message is.

John Dehlin [01:09:50] It's always filtered through the corporation of the President, the Church of Jesus Christ letter, he states. And so it's really what Dallin H. Oaks wants for you today, or what Spence W. Kimball wanted for you 20 years ago, or what Joseph Fielding Smith wanted for you 50 years ago, or what Brigham Young wanted for you 100 years ago, or Joseph Smith 200 years ago. And it's always changing and it's always in the church's self interest and oftentimes it's to your own personal detriment. So invoking Jesus is, is manipulative in my view, and kind of problematic.

Carah Burrell [01:10:25] And again, they will let things go on very insidiously, very, very toxically within you to your own detriment for their self interest. As long as you don't leave the church, as long as you don't come to the conclusion that it's actually just not a true thing, they can let you keep, keep kind of giving you this, this poisoned version of Jesus Christ that doesn't sit well with so many people spiritually or intellectually or whatever it may be, as long as they don't come to the conclusion that church isn't true. But they still will keep having you come back and keep, keep taking your tithing, keep re upping you into this, this system. As long as you kind of don't stray from the path overall. And that's just kind of Religion 101 in this year.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Yeah. Let's go ahead and share some of the final comments and then we're going to hit a few really tough questions points at the end, just to close one person wrote I wonder what would. Would happen. Let's see. I wonder what would happen there if they wouldn't have a Satan or deceiver to use to frighten people. That video was so sick and manipul. Manipulative to me. Glad we are out. We've made that point previously already. SH Jacobson writes he appears deeply unhappy. If the Gospel does bring him joy, he should focus on why. I, you know, do you think that he looks unhappy? I mean that's judging. And Jesus said don't judge. So we're going to be hypocritical if we say he doesn't look happy. What are your, what are your quick thoughts on that, Carah?

Carah Burrell [01:11:54] I mean it's just like anybody in the church, they do the best and they think they're as happy as they can within whatever paradigm they have to operate it within. And maybe he's, maybe he does need to go on his own interpersonal journey and not have a microphone in front of him for a while because I don't think he's in a position to know what would bring other people happiness, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:12:12] Yeah, but when you're, when you're advocating for like the way like even, even in this episode, I'm, you're, you're pretty Zen. I get kind of caffeinated, John. Emotional. I'm not trying to advocate away. I'm expressing sadness and anger and frustration at someone saying and doing harmful things. But if you're going to be presenting the way it just seems like you want, you know, when you think about Buddha, when you think about Jesus, when you think about Eckhart Tolle or whatever, they're calm. They seem happy.

Carah Burrell [01:12:42] Yeah, I was thinking about that a lot throughout this, to be honest.

John Dehlin [01:12:44] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:12:45] Yeah. He doesn't, he doesn't have an exuberance to him.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] As happy, as peaceful, as enlightened, as gracious, as wise. He comes across as sarcastic and bitter and angry and, and petty. Well, that's kind of, that's kind of the review that we had of this talk. It's only about eight minutes that we shared, but we hope, you know, honestly, we hope that Brother Hatch, but more importantly BYU Hawaii, but more importantly the entire BYU system, but more importantly, the entire Mormon Church uses some of its 250 billion dollar $250 billion in wealth to just ramp up their correlation department and to stop allowing any pulpit, general conference, you know, BYU universities, any public forums to just stop the hate, stop the, you know, homophobia, stop the divisive rhetoric, stop the polarization and, and amp up the love and, and ironically, one of the best talks of this entire past general conference was, was prophet President Russell M.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Nelson calling on more civility and more peacemaking, which made this talk even more ironically disappointing because it came just a day or two after the prophet himself said, we need less divisive rhetoric and more peacemaking. So I'll just share that final comment made by R. Maxwell, 6, BYU Hawaii. And I think this applies to the church overall. Approve all your speeches, including tone and inflection. All right, Carah. Well, we did it. We reviewed Brother Hatch's, Brother David Glenn Hatch's devotional. We hope you all appreciated it. Please subscribe to Nuanceho YouTube channel and please subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast YouTube channels. We appreciate your super chats. Whenever you can donate on either channel. We appreciate your support and we hope you've enjoyed today's episode. Carah, any final words?

Carah Burrell [01:14:45] Nope. I realized at the beginning I was trying to play it cool, calm and casual like, how you doing, Carah? Like, I'm good and stuff, but I'll let my outro be how absolutely excited I am to be doing more collabs with you, John. And I hope all, both of our audiences enjoy them as much as I do. So this was really, I think, an important message to get out today. And kind of people who live in a position where they think they're calling truth to power and they're saying, don't follow this type of agenda, keep going with the truth as prescribed by the church. But it's important to make videos like this, to be like, there's just so many marginalized people, so many people who are hurting, so many people who are looking up to these, these leaders and these people of authority for their spiritual edification and not finding it and just letting people know that that's, that's a perfectly normal thing to feel.

Carah Burrell [01:15:32] And if you walked out of that speech, that's a perfectly valid choice to make. And questioning these types of authorities, if we don't, if we don't question them. Who will. So I'm glad you did this video with me. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] Thanks, Carah. And we send our love to the BYU Hawaii community, to the surrounding community, to, you know, Mormons everywhere, especially to the LGBTQ community within the Mormon Church. And we just send you our love and support. And we just want to reaffirm the message the the kingdom of God is within. Everyone's got to figure out their identities, their beliefs and. And live true to that. And from what I understand, that's where true peace and joy and fulfillment lies. So I'll just send an opposite message, which is look within, figure out who you are, figure out what brings you joy and happiness and fulfillment and be that and feel secure and happy and supported in those decisions. Thanks again, everybody. Please be good to each other, please be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and the

Carah Burrell [01:16:40] new on so YouTube channel that is also just here using all of this equipment and reposting the same video. Yay. Hooray.

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