Introducing Chris Lee and Mitch Hadfield

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1674

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's October 4, 2022, and we have a really important Mormon Stories interview to do today. Today we are interviewing two brothers in law. We're interviewing Chris Lee and Mitch Hadfield. Hey, Chris and Mitch. How are you guys doing?

Mitch Hadfield [00:00:24] Doing great.

Chris Lee [00:00:25] Excellent.

Mitch Hadfield [00:00:25] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] For us, yeah. For those of you who are newer to Mormon Stories podcast, we have a long, long history of interviewing family members, multiple family members, within a single interview. And it's personally one of the most fun and enjoyable types of interviews that we do. It's also one of the most important or impactful types of interviews we do, whether it's, you know, Donna Showalter with her son Michael, whether it's Leah Cody and Brinley Young, whether it's Paul and Lisa Hacking with their son, whether it's Julian Jerry Johnson and David Laurie Checketts. The Mike Sells.

Mitch Hadfield [00:01:04] The Witbacks.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] The Witbacks, yeah. Or, you know, Matt Elgren and Clay Christensen, who were brothers in law. Like, these are. These are really important episodes. And one of the most important things about these episodes are, is that it helps people model number one, how to. How to navigate a faith crisis yourself when you have family and extended family that is believing. But then also, you know, how to. How to support a. A, A family member who's going through a faith crisis. And then what happens when two family members discover each other going through a faith crisis? You guys are smiling at each other already. What happens when two family members who are surrounded by believing family members discover each other and are able to support each other as well and kind of mentor each other?

John Dehlin [00:02:03] So these are the types of things we'll be talking about today, along with just general faith crisis stuff, mission stuff, BYU stuff, marriage stuff, like all the good stuff. Does that sound right?

Chris Lee [00:02:18] All the things. Yeah, all the things.

Mitch Hadfield [00:02:19] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] You guys had a. Had a comical title for this. What was the comical title?

Chris Lee [00:02:25] I think I get credit for that because I teach English.

Mitch Hadfield [00:02:28] Brothers in Law, Breaking the Mormon Laws. I don't know, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] But yeah, that's just a joke. Yeah, it's just Navigating a faith crisis as brothers in law and within, you know, surrounded by believing family. So joining us today in studio is my wise and brilliant co host for as of late, Margi Dillon. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:50] Hey, babe.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Thanks for coming.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:52] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] It's so good to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:56] Yeah, I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] How you feeling?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:58] Good.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] Good.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:59] Feeling good. I'm glad to Be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] Yeah. All right, well, let's go ahead and jump in. You know, normally we. Normally what we try and do is kind of parallel have you both tell your stories in one way or another. And we usually try and start with the person who is more senior than the other person. And I think that's you, Chris.

Chris Lee [00:03:21] Yeah, I got 10 years on you, so.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] But before we jump in, I want to give each of you a chance to kind of share your intentions for why you want to do this interview. So why don't we have Chris go and then Mitch if he wants to add anything.

Chris Lee [00:03:35] Yeah. So I've thought a lot about this because this can be. It can start conversation. Right. But you kind of said this before. A lot of people will ask me, I live in a small community in central Utah. They'll ask, so, hey, what's going on with you? I haven't seen you around at church functions. What's going on? And it's just nice to keep. Get this out and to have it on record and have my three daughters listen to this at some point, my spouse listen to this, family members, kind of a controlled long form space and say, oh, I've talked about this, actually check it out and there might be timestamps even.

Chris Lee [00:04:19] So you can listen to this and then we can maybe talk more. And I think I'm hoping that a lot of what I have to say is helpful to people, especially regarding mental health. Certain things that I've experienced, I've had conversations with students in the past 10 years at different schools, including BYU, and it's been helpful to share those experiences. I'm like, maybe doing this on a bigger scale would be useful. And I'm hoping that's the case.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Okay.

Chris Lee [00:04:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Mitch, anything you want to add?

Mitch Hadfield [00:04:50] Yeah, I guess the only thing I would add is that I guess I'm doing this. I really wanted the church to be true. I loved the church. And it was really hard. And I found out that it wasn't what I thought it was. And that's a hard thing to navigate. And so just I guess sharing my

John Dehlin [00:05:08] story through that for maybe for other

Mitch Hadfield [00:05:11] people who are going through other people who are figuring out the church isn't maybe what they thought it was. Just wanting to share that. And then also for those who are believing to know I'm not out to destroy the church, it was something that I loved. It was something that I held really close. And it was really hard for me to find out it wasn't what I thought it was and kind of go through that process.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] So maybe to help believing family members know how to at least develop empathy

Mitch Hadfield [00:05:39] for people, for people who leave the church for, you know, and not see them as someone who's trying to tear down the church, but as someone who's hurting and going through their own. Their own process.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. All right, Chris, where did. And we're going to. We're going to see if we can do this in one take. We'll either do it in one or two takes. This won't be an eight hour marathon. We're going to try and get this under four hours and we'll just see where it goes. But maybe two, maybe three. I don't know. Let's just see. But Chris, where does your Mormon story begin?

Chris's Early Years and Mormon Upbringing

Chris Lee [00:06:10] Yeah, well, I think I can help with the timeline on that because I had a. In short, I had a really positive experience growing up in the church. I was born in Provo and my dad was finishing up a degree at BYU and then he went to law school. He ended up getting a job in Southern California. So he moved the family down there near San Bernardino was a city called Redlands.

Chris Lee [00:06:37] Redlands, yeah. There's a temple there now. It's been there for about 20 years, but it was a great place to grow up. And I might maybe be romanticizing my experience a little bit, but I always feel like this is a stereotype. But a lot of, you know, wards outside of Utah, they seem to have a greater cohesion, I think. Again, I know that's not always the case, but I have positive memories growing up in the church, my dad was always in a leadership position, if I can remember correctly.

Chris Lee [00:07:13] Great friends and just a good experience. I didn't have any issues really in the church. I mean, you're a kid, you're not really thinking about doctrine on a deep level, but very social, positive place. And even being in the minority, we still have a lot of members in Southern California. But even being in the minority, it didn't seem to be an issue. I had, you know, the sort of teasing that you hear about if you're in the minority. Mormon kid. I didn't really have that. I had a lot of LDS friends, had a lot of friends who weren't religious. The community I was in, there were actually a lot of different churches all over the place.

Chris Lee [00:07:51] So there were different kinds of faith everywhere. And yeah, I really don't have anything negative, but I do have a couple things that I thought of that I didn't want to. Did want to share that were foundational. I Guess in kind of me building a testimony in the church. And so one of them.

Chris Lee [00:08:12] This was probably when I was like, five. It was one of my earliest memories. And it was. I was playing around the side of our house, I think it was before we had landscaped or something. And there were big, tall weeds everywhere and dirt everywhere. And I had this little bouncy ball. And I was just like, seeing how high could I get this. Can I go higher? Can I go higher? And of course, I finally hit it to the point where I. It's gone, right? And I guess I remembered what you're supposed to do when you lose a ball, right? This is like cliche, you know, Mormon youth story.

Chris Lee [00:08:43] But I pray about it, right? And so I prayed to God that I would find my ball. And it must have been like, two minutes later, my dad kind of comes out. He's like, hey, I found this thing in the weeds and he gives it to me, right? And so even from a very young age, I thought that immediately worked, right? And that stuck with me.

Chris Lee [00:09:03] And fast forwarding maybe five years. I was at Fish Lake with family. My grandpa, I think his brother owned a cabin up there. And we were, my cousin and I. She was. I think she's a year older than me. So we were maybe 10, 11 at the time. We had walked down from the cabin to the lake, which we would often do, and then go back up at some point, you know, we had waited too long. It started getting dark, so we had no clue where we were. We were just kind of wandering around, you know, that it's probably, you know, looking back, wasn't as dire as we thought because we were near other cabins.

Chris Lee [00:09:38] But we thought, like, we are lost, right? Like, we are two little kids lost in the woods. It's dark. You know, this is how people die. This is horrible. So my cousin, I'll give her credit for this. My cousin thought, well, let's kneel down and let's say a prayer, right? This will work. So we do, and she kind of takes charge. And then we sort of wander to this lodge or it was like a convenience store that was. Was there. We knock on the back door and we're like, we're lost. Like, please help us. And, you know, we go in and they're giving us snacks and they call our parents.

Chris Lee [00:10:11] But again, like, it. Prayer works, right? And so I had these experiences as a kid that confirmed at least that that one thing was true. And this was independent of your, really, any instruction from, you know, my parents, like, saying prayer works Right. Prayer work is like, I just did this stuff.

Chris Lee [00:10:29] So that two kind of things that jump out to me. And then the only other thing that I remember that I wanted to say, this, this kind of challenges the two things that I just said a little bit. But it's a dream that I had, and for some reason I always remember my dreams, even now, at least for like a couple days later, you know. But this was one I had when I was about 10, and I think it was. Ryan Nielsen, who was on the podcast a couple years ago, told his story. It like, freaked me out. I was like, whoa. I remember my dream that I had and I was in a chapel, an LDS chapel, and it was black and white.

Chris Lee [00:11:10] And I don't think I've ever dreamed without color before. And I couldn't find my way out of it. I was just like, I kind of like, I need to get home or whatever. You know those dreams when you're like stuck at school or something and you can't ever leave? It was kind of like that in this church building. And at some point I leave and then everything's in color. You know, even a kid, I'm like, it's kind of weird. I don't ever recall having a dream like that. So, you know, I didn't give it much stock at the time because I was young. But now, you know, looking back, it is something unique about that psychologically, you know, I'm not going to do a deep dive into my, my old self, but those are just some things I thought of in my generally positive experience.

Chris Lee [00:11:50] You know, youth conference was, was good. I had amazing friends in the church. So I don't, I don't have any. And I should probably acknowledge too, I thought about this before I, before we're doing this interview. I get why I would have a positive experience just acknowledging being a straight upper middle class, like, white CIS guy.

Chris Lee [00:12:14] That's not surprising. So I don't want to ignore that fact. But having said that, I did have a very positive experience growing up in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] And as you. How would you characterize your family? Family's brand of Mormonism?

Chris Lee [00:12:35] Yeah. Okay, so maybe one way to describe this Sundays were we honor the Sabbath. We weren't playing with friends. We weren't, you know, swimming was like a total no, no. And I know that a lot of non Mormon listeners, but swimming is like a. At least when I grew up, it was a big no, no.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] Is that for some Doctrine and Covenants, which is Mormon scripture, it says that Satan has control over the waters so missionaries aren't allowed to swim.

Chris Lee [00:12:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] And there's just a general, but also Mormon swim. So it's. It's kind of a weird dichotomy on Sundays.

Chris Lee [00:13:06] I guess God's like, hey, it's your day. So. So, yeah. So I don't think we really stayed in our Sunday clothes. I haven't really any memory of that. So there were things that we would really consistently do. We would try family evening, but we'd often end up just kind of annoying each other and fighting, and then that would go away for a while. We do scripture study when we go away. So I think that was pretty typical growing up.

Chris Lee [00:13:32] But I always joke that anybody my age, especially if they're les. I can learn a lot about their childhood with this one question. Did your parents let you watch the Simpsons? Yes, and I had a TV in my room, and I was watching Simpsons and X Files. This dates me, but in my little TV in my room. And so what I'm trying to suggest with that is we were very active, but I'm trying to avoid labels, but I don't think we were not super orthodox.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] You're not super orthodox?

Chris Lee [00:14:05] I don't know. I think we were. I mean, my dad was always on the high council and bishoprics. You know, we did seminary. We did all the things.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Okay, maybe not super orthoprax.

Chris Lee [00:14:15] Okay. Yeah. I mean, maybe if we qualify it with, like, super. I'm trying to avoid the word fundamentalist,

John Dehlin [00:14:20] because that's a totally different thing, but in Mormon context.

Chris Lee [00:14:23] Yeah, I know. So we.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] Not super harsh and strict.

Chris Lee [00:14:25] Yeah, no, no, no. I don't think there was any of that, especially in my experience. I'm the oldest, so maybe my younger siblings. So I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and there's four years between each of us, so there's a

John Dehlin [00:14:36] pretty big gap between the two. You're the oldest of three.

Chris Lee [00:14:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Okay.

Chris Lee [00:14:40] So part of it was just, you know, I imagine my experience is different in that my parents are, let's try this. And then it's like, oh, I didn't. That didn't go super well. Let's fix it with our other, you know, the two younger ones. But I didn't have a huge rebellious streak. I look back now, I'm like, I was a pretty good kid. I think that was the case. I was a normal person, you know, but had good friends. So, yeah, we. We were very active. And my dad, his law firm, I think it was. Everyone knew he was lds, and I think he was Respected for it, I think, I think he was not ashamed of any of this. But the Simpsons, right. I mean that rooted us in I think a normal like American middle class existence in the 90s.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] So Simpsons is Mormon edgy.

Chris Lee [00:15:30] Well, I know, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] It's like Coke Simpsons PG 13/R rated movies, you know, that's sketchy. I'm being a little bit safe.

Chris Lee [00:15:43] Yeah. So that we, yeah, I, I, I probably would have resented now if we had a very strict, you know, LDS upbringing. I don't feel that that was the case.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] Yeah, no, it just sounds like it wasn't harsh in super strict. Okay. And as you're, let's just say in your high school years and you're, you know, we're always taught we can't live on borrowed light, that we have to gain a testimony of our own. You shared a few mini miracles that you experienced as a kid. But once you get into high school in seminary and you start being taught kind of the church's theology and doctrine and you know that a mission and or temple marriage might be looming, you, you gotta kind of think through that sometimes. How is it? How is that for you? Or not? Maybe not.

Chris Lee [00:16:27] Well, you're actually making me think of an experience in a youth conference I kind of forgot about. But I think for the most part I was a tell it. Yeah, you kind of just, all your friends at that age are doing these youth conference activities. And I mean we grew up in Southern California, so we were doing, you know, I moved to Utah. I'm like, oh, lagoon. Like cool.

Chris Lee [00:16:48] I feel bad for you guys. We had all the stuff. This was even SeaWorld. Like we had seat. That was a thing that dates me again. But we were at a youth conference and it was the kind of after activity testimony meeting. And I remember a lot of people getting up and they're crying and they're bearing this very heartfelt, I would imagine very honest, genuine testimony. And they're using the, the no word. Right. Like I know that this is true and because you know, it's a, it's a cultural thing you pick up on. I remember sitting there kind of thinking like I don't not believe, but like I don't.

Chris Lee [00:17:27] Where is this stuff coming from? I'm not feeling this like the things that I'm supposed to necessarily. And I didn't discount it as like that's the moment I'm like, wait, wait a minute. You know, I'm kind of looking around like is any soon to have a dry eye? Is it just me? And when when you feel like you are kind of in the minority, you start to think that it's you. Right. And so I got up and I walk up there and, you know, I was probably 15, maybe. I don't remember which what age I was. And I just did the thing and I kind of felt like I did. I'm trying to use my words carefully. Like I either received the feelings or they were manufactured.

Mitch Hadfield [00:18:10] Right.

Chris Lee [00:18:10] I think there's different ways to interpret that, but they were real. And I'm like, looking out over the audience and I'm like, oh, you just have to do it.

Mitch Hadfield [00:18:17] Right.

Chris Lee [00:18:17] And of course, that's often what we're taught is the testimony is found in the bearing of it. Right. And so I thought, oh, that's another kind of true principle. So it was an initial kind of. I'm not fitting here. Well, just sort of do it. Okay. It worked. And that's a theme that just ramped up and up and up. And we'll talk about it on the mission where it really, like, blew up. So.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Okay.

Chris Lee [00:18:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] So as you think about kind of graduating from high school and preparing for a mission, do you feel like you kind of covered the main things you wanted to cover? Is there anything else you want to cover before we switch to kind of mission prep and mission? I don't.

Chris Lee [00:18:54] I don't think so. I. I was. I wanted to go. I was excited to go. I did do one year of school at Snow College before the. The mission. So this is like pre age change.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Yeah.

Chris Lee [00:19:07] 19. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] You're old like me, basically.

Chris Lee [00:19:09] Yeah. You got my Simpsons reference. It's still on, I think, so. I think you're good. But, um, yeah, I. So maybe I'll just add that real quick. Going to Snow College really sort of your commitment to. To the church gels because at the time it was probably like 99% LDS and the 1% was probably the football team. I'm kind of kidding. But that might be a true statistic.

Chris Lee [00:19:39] And so when you see other people who. Oh, they don't have to go. I mean, I guess I wasn't totally naive to, like, there's clearly social pressure to do what everyone's doing, but there's no parents telling you what to do.

Chris Lee [00:19:54] It's not like there's these authority figures that aren't really getting in your business. Right. And so that I think helped too, that, oh, this is. It's kind of nice to not have, like, go do this and go to this. You have to go to seminary at 5:30 or 6 in the morning. And so that probably kind of strengthened my commitment and I didn't feel like I was missing out. It was all I knew I wasn't at some party school. Like, man, I wish I could be doing what they're doing. So it just felt natural. It felt good. I made amazing friends. I still have friends from. This was 2001 from my freshman year. So that just strengthened my. Of course I want to go on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] We've talked a lot about the BYU's on Mormon stories, but I don't think our non Utah, non Mormon listeners might know much about Snow. Yeah, you want to give like the one minute overview of where and what Snow College is.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:49] Yeah.

Chris Lee [00:20:49] And I'm smiling because I'm trying not to do a 20 minute recruitment video because I love Snow College.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] Oh, you work there now?

Chris Lee [00:20:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] Okay. Is that a secret where you're not supposed to.

Chris Lee [00:20:58] No. Shut it down. We got to start over. That's part of my story is I love that place. My dad actually grew up in Ephraim, which is where it is. So in central Utah, there's a two year residential college, which is becomes more and more unique because that's usually two year is a commuter community college. So Snow has athletics, there's a football team.

Chris Lee [00:21:22] Again, it's residential. So it's a unique place in that people from Salt Lake or Logan or Provo, these more urban areas on the Wasatch front in Utah will move down to central Utah. It is literally almost exactly in the. There's a coordinate that you do a hike that's right in the center of the state.

Chris Lee [00:21:41] Wow, that makes it sound really boring down there. But it's a unique place because people move down there to kind of have this small town experience with small class sizes. I feel like I'm doing a commercial now. So I loved it there because I had family experiences with my grandma, my grandpa, my grandpa father owned a store. Any from it was a little variety store. I know I'm backtracking, but going there was always an option. Like, well, a lot of my friends are either going on missions because I was always the youngest in my age group.

Chris Lee [00:22:15] My dad when I was going into kindergarten was like, hey, we need to send him to school. And they're like, oh, the deadline's changed. And he's like, no, you don't understand. He's gonna go to kindergarten. Right. So he lawyered my way in, I guess to anyway. So yeah, it was always an option of maybe what if I go to Snow, you know, and I Wasn't escaping anything I had. I liked all my friends, but I thought, maybe I'll do something different. So, yeah, I, I, and I loved it there.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] How does Ephraim compare to Provo or Rexburg? We've talked a lot about Provo and Rexburg. How does Ephraim or Logan, if you even could compare? I'm just curious.

Chris Lee [00:22:51] Well, I went to usu, so. And I've taught a byu. Let's see. I, I have comparison points.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] Is there anything meaningful we don't have to force?

Chris Lee [00:22:58] Well, do you mean, like, in terms of the religious culture?

John Dehlin [00:23:01] Anything, Anything notable?

Chris Lee [00:23:03] Okay. It's unlike BYU in that it's super tiny, so it's really easy to make connections. Byu. You know, I also had a stint of byu. I don't know if that's going to come up here or not, but I was there for a month as a student. But, you know, you go like a week without seeing anybody, you know, and that does not happen down at Snow. When I was there, there were maybe 20, 22, 2,500 students total.

Chris Lee [00:23:27] My high school almost, I felt like, was bigger than that. So as far as it being smaller. Right. But it's also very rural, so there's not much down there. I mean, the, the landmark that people might be familiar with is probably the Manti Temple, which is five minutes south, which was part of the experience. Right. Like, we would, I'd have, I had a friend, Aaron Gail, who would, like, knock on my window. I lived with my grandpa. My, my, my. I guess this is my second year. But he would just be like, in his temple clothes, like, we're gonna go. And I'm like, I'm just waking up, you know, but.

Chris Lee [00:24:01] Okay. And we would, like, drive to the temple and do a, do a session. So. Yeah. And sometimes there's a label of, you know, it's mini byu. I don't, I don't think so. I, Yeah. I don't know if this is making sense as comparison, but it, I didn't feel that social pressure, like, are you going on the mission? As much as I've heard of BYU. I'm sure it was there, but it was there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] I can't say that. I've heard lots of stories about kind of kooky, kind of polygamous types around Manti.

Chris Lee [00:24:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Like, people apostate groups, fundamentalist apostate groups that are, like, doing temple ceremonies outside of the Manti Temple, but around the

Chris Lee [00:24:58] Manti Temple, we didn't have anything to do. Like, what else are we Going to do, you know, so. No, I think I get what you're meaning. Like. Yes, true. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] And there was the Manti pageant.

Chris Lee [00:25:07] Yeah, yeah. Which has been rest in peace. Right. I think since 2018. But no, you're right about that. But here's. I guess my experience was when you're at school there, because it's a residential campus, there's just kind of not much you think about out. This is going to sound like it's boring really. But there's the campus and there's kind of the Walmart and that's like every student life is on the campus and there's. There's a couple hikes and there's things to do outdoors and stuff. But that stuff didn't really filter in to the experience. In my experience, other than like, oh, what's. We're at Walmart and there's why are they dressed like pioneer? Oh, and someone will like tell you.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:48] Right.

Chris Lee [00:25:49] So there's that.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:49] What?

Chris Lee [00:25:50] That there's polygamists adherence, I guess down there around it. Yeah, yeah. Manti. I think some places north.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Okay.

Chris Lee [00:26:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:01] Okay. And it's not snow because it's particularly snowy, right?

Chris Lee [00:26:04] Nope. No, it is named after a prominent LDS prophet.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] Lorenzo. Yeah, Lorenzo Snow.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:11] Right.

Chris Lee [00:26:12] And his brother erastus.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] Okay.

Chris Lee [00:26:14] Yeah. 1888. I think I'm like trying to prove my.

Mitch Hadfield [00:26:18] Why is it the badgers?

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Is Erastus Snow the equivalent of Jedediah Springfield? Basically.

Chris Lee [00:26:23] Oh, I like that. And you know what? There's actually a. In the little.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] That's a Simpsons reference. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:29] Oh, thank you for that.

Chris Lee [00:26:30] We should do more of that. Yeah, there's a.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] It's gonna be a running theme. Simpsons is gonna be a running theme.

Chris Lee [00:26:35] The Golden Age.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:36] All the jokes are gonna be Simpson and.

Chris Lee [00:26:38] Yeah. When in the 90s past that I kind of checked out. But there's a statue, though, in the middle of campus where it's. I call him Rasty. I hope that's okay. But Rasty and Lorenzo are like pointing at the oldest building on campus and you're like, what are they pointing at? But it does kind of remind me of the. Yeah, all right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] Okay. All right. Well, so that kind of takes us up to right before your mission. Is that right? All right, well, let's pause and Mitch, let's jump to you Even though you're 10 years Chris's junior.

Mitch Hadfield [00:27:10] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] Right.

Mitch Hadfield [00:27:11] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] Let's go ahead and do your Mormon story up through kind of pre mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] All right.

Mitch Hadfield [00:27:17] Yeah, that's sounds great.

John Dehlin [00:27:18] Ping pong variety back and forth.

Mitch Hadfield [00:27:20] Great.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] All right.

Mitch Hadfield [00:27:21] Yeah. So I. I was born in American Fork City. I was. I'm the oldest of four children. I have three younger sisters. But before I can really remember anything, my dad. My dad was in the military and we moved to suburbs of D.C. where he worked at the Pentagon. So that's kind of as early as I remember. Virginia. Yeah, I mean, we started out in downtown D.C. in apartments. That's kind of early as I remember. And then kind of before kindergarten, we bought a home in the suburbs in Virginia, and my dad would commute, but that's kind of.

Mitch's Orthodox Mormon Childhood

John Dehlin [00:27:54] Which ward do you know?

Mitch Hadfield [00:27:56] We're in the Rolling Valley ward in Springfield, Virginia. So I think. I think the boundaries have changed by now, but yeah, so that's. That's kind of where I grew up. And a little bit of a unique military experience.

Mitch Hadfield [00:28:09] We didn't. I didn't move from that time until I went on a mission when I was 19. My father got deployed a couple times to war zones, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, things like that. But we never had to up and up and move our family. He would always, you know, go and do his thing and then eventually he'd come back.

Mitch Hadfield [00:28:28] So that kind of sets the tone of kind of how I grew up a little bit military wise. My mom, you know, a lot of times she would kind of do things on her own with us just because my dad would be gone, work long hours, you know, he's in skiffs, unreachable for long periods of time.

Mitch Hadfield [00:28:47] So, yeah, grew up, I would say, in a very believing home. You know, my dad wasn't very strict, which was interesting. Being in the military. He was always more lax. My mother was more strict. And maybe that just came from having to do things on our own a lot with four of us kids.

Mitch Hadfield [00:29:07] But, you know, a believing household, you know, not as orthodox as some. You know, we watched sports on Sundays, we played sports on Sundays. You know, that was really some of the only time I got to spend with my dad. So we'd play football or basketball, things like that. But we always went to church. You know, we try family scripture study. You know, we'd have a couple months. We did it in the mornings, then not do it for a while, then do it again. We did family night. That always ended up kind of being the most contentious hour of the week until it was like, okay, let's just eat dessert.

Mitch Hadfield [00:29:39] So, but. But my parents tried there and, you know, we did the normal Mormon stuff. I was growing up in sports a lot. I played basketball, fairly tall. I'M fairly tall. Yeah. Yeah, you're very tall, too.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] Tall. Ish.

Mitch Hadfield [00:29:54] Yeah. Six five.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Yeah, that's.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:56] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [00:29:57] For high school sports.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:00] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [00:30:01] So I wouldn't do any, like, the Mormon summer camps because I'd be at a basketball camp or something like that. But, you know, normal stuff. Church on Sundays, early morning seminary. I was really into early morning seminary. My first year was the Old Testament.

Mitch Hadfield [00:30:18] Really excited years. Old Testament had a great teacher who was, you know, kind of made it fun for the kids. And as I went on in high school, I got less interested in seminary, a little more interested in sports, got more tired. But something interesting in my growing up was my family, while believing wasn't ultra Orthodox, but kind of as I grew up in the church, I became kind of ultra orthodox.

Mitch Hadfield [00:30:46] And I would kind of view my family at times through a negative light. You know, slackers, you know, why aren't we reading our scriptures more as a family? You know, why, you know, why aren't we staying in our Sunday clothes?

Mitch Hadfield [00:30:57] You know, why are we watching sports on Sunday? Why are we watching these PG 13, you know, movies? We didn't really have any stipulations on what movies we could watch. Maybe we didn't watch rated R, but my parents had some and, you know, Band of Brothers, things like that, war movies.

Mitch Hadfield [00:31:15] So. But. But it kind of did set up a little bit of dynamic against my family at times because, like, we'd go on vacations and my family like, yeah, we're not gonna go to church because we're on vacation. And I'd ask them to bring me to a church building, drop me off, and I'd go to church and then I'd come back and they'd go swimming and I just kind of stay in the, you know, the hotel.

Mitch Hadfield [00:31:34] So it's kind of interesting looking back, kind of seeing the dynamic that played out. Some of that was before my mission, you know, kind of being, you know, going the more orthodox route, being a very literal believer. You know, it says we have to honor the Sabbath day, you know, read some old talks. What does it say? Okay, that's what I need to do, even if my family doesn't type things.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:52] So do you. Do you remember kind of when that started emerging in you, that change of. Of becoming a bit more orthodox?

Mitch Hadfield [00:32:02] I would think probably around high school timeframe, kind of before that I just went to church, hung out with friends, but kind of when high school came, I started to try to read the Book of Mormon more, take notes in it, started to read the preach my Gospel and other things like that started thinking a little bit more for myself. I think everybody at that time period becomes a little more distrustful of their parents, trying to figure out what works for them. And so, you know, just listening to talk, conference talks or going to church, bringing home ideas and being like, hey, this doesn't necessarily square with everything we're doing. Yeah, we're doing a lot of it. But

Margi Dehlin [00:32:44] so, yeah, interesting, because in your way, that was your differentiation, right? Like the teen.

Mitch Hadfield [00:32:50] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:50] Individuation, little differentiation there. Do you remember, like, if you were to think back to those years, do you remember it's okay if not too. If there was a particular drive or what you remember kind of feeling behind that sort of desire to get more serious or to live it more deeply or to. Do you remember anything about that?

Mitch Hadfield [00:33:20] Yeah, I mean, I remember I've always been very gung ho and want to do everything 100%. And so I think kind of around those years, I feel like I gained, you know, what some would call their own testimony, feeling like it's true. Reading, praying, things like that. I was a very emotional child, you know, kind of opposite of Chris. I'd stand up and bear my testimony and cry on Sundays and, you know, the feelings were very real and kind of had a deep emotional experience that way. And so I think I decided from that age I was going to be all in and kind of do everything I could to, you know, live, live the more the gospel, you know, in any way I could.

Mitch Hadfield [00:33:59] Any. Anything I could add, anything I could learn. I was, you know, excited about it anyway. My family, a lot of times was accommodating, but sometimes it did kind of bring up contention there, meaning your orthodoxy

John Dehlin [00:34:13] or your orthopraxy would upset your parents or siblings.

Mitch Hadfield [00:34:18] It. Yeah. Yeah, it would. So, for instance, I remember my. My sisters really loved the movie Pitch Perfect, and they wanted me, you know, watch it with them. And they. They were like, this movie's awesome. And I'd be like, no, it has some swearing or I. I don't. I don't remember, you know, that movie specifically. But, you know, maybe there were things in it. Maybe it's PG13. And I, you know, things I was maybe uncomfortable with at the time.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] Maybe it was a little bit too LGBT affirming.

Mitch Hadfield [00:34:41] It could be. Yeah. And I. I would push back, you know, on my sisters and be like, this is bad. You shouldn't watch this. Like, this is, you know, things like that. So.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:52] Can I ask one? Of course. One question. I don't know if it's too personal or not, but just curious, in your kind of psychology growing up and the fact that your dad, it sounds like, was deployed to some places where there was danger, do you have memory of feeling fear for your dad or.

Mitch Hadfield [00:35:16] I do, I do. I have. I have several. But I remember at one point my dad was in Iraq for 18 months, and, you know, we were in Virginia at the time, and news came out about some American servicemen being killed in the streets in Iraq by, you know, I don't know who did it, but kind of in a demonstration, and I remember sitting at the kitchen table just. Just, you know, in middle school at the time and just crying and, you know, wondering, you know, will I ever see my dad again? Type thing.

Chris Lee [00:35:53] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [00:35:54] So I do. I do have a lot of memories of that, you know, and my dad, I think, was also, you know, he'd bring up humor before he went to different war zones, and he'd talk about, you know, I remember this vividly, but he'd always say, like, you know, I think I'm gonna die in war. I'm gonna die in war. He'd say things like that. And I think it was more to help himself, you know, with the fear, because I'm sure, you know, as a service member, you go through things like that, you know, but it was. It was hard to hear as a kid. And I remember just, you know, not. Not knowing if it was like a prompting of his or something like that, you know, thinking maybe he will die in war. So it was. It was scary as a. As a kid growing up.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:32] I can imagine that.

Mitch Hadfield [00:36:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:35] I mean, I don't know if you're thinking this, Margi, but I'm wondering if maybe some of your religiosity maybe was tied to fears about your dad and. Or hopes that if you are religious enough, it'll keep your dad safe. I don't mean to project that.

Mitch Hadfield [00:36:51] No. Yeah. I always did have a strong, like, desire for my family, I guess, to be together and to everybody do everything right so we could be together. That was. That was, I guess, a promise that I did latch on to, I mean, I think for. For a long time, even into, you know, marriage years. But, yeah, I would agree that so

Margi Dehlin [00:37:11] makes sense to me.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:13] You know, and that and. And really feeling, it sounds like from a relatively young age where many children live in a bubble, more of a protection space to be children, to really have this firsthand experience of danger, real danger in the world, you know, and trying to kind of seek control and protection where you can when you're still kind of, you know, in a child role. Yeah, Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [00:37:45] I kind of. I kind of even remember one other early memory. I was in third grade and when the Twin Towers were hit and the Pentagon was hit, my dad was working at the Pentagon at the time. And, you know, he happened to be. And he didn't work in the area where it was hit, but, I mean, I didn't know where in the Pentagon he worked at the time he was

John Dehlin [00:38:02] in the Pentagon when the.

Mitch Hadfield [00:38:04] Well, he was on it. He was on a business trip for a couple days. But, you know, I knew he worked at the Pentagon. I. You know, I was young. I didn't really understand what was happening, but I just saw the Pentagon being hit, and I was immediately. Just didn't know. You know, as a third grader, you know, I came home and my mom put on the video of the towers and the Pentagon being hit, and I just.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:23] Wow.

Mitch Hadfield [00:38:23] Remember immediately feeling fear. But then also he was out of town for the couple days. But, yeah, just. That was something I did live with as a child growing up.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] So, yeah, yeah, I've. I've wanted. I guess we did Kelly Lang talking about military service, but I don't think I've covered that quite enough. So if there are other. Maybe another Mormon couple or two post Mormon couple or two that have dealt with military service, I think that's. That's an area we need to cover a little bit more because the sacrifice is made both by the parents and the children in military service. And then from a Mormon angle.

Mitch Hadfield [00:39:04] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:39:05] That's an important story. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:07] So true.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] Well, I want to thank your family for your dad's service.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Even though he's not here. Yep. To here. All right.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] So your Mormon intensity was at 11 compared to your family members, but they were still devout, so.

Mitch Hadfield [00:39:25] Yeah, they were still devout. Went to church, did. Did kind of everything they were supposed to, I guess, but maybe not through my eyes. You know, I always thought, you know, there's more we can do, there's more they should do.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Basically, you're Nephi.

Mitch Hadfield [00:39:35] Kind of.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:35] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [00:39:35] And that's kind of how I viewed it. A lot of the times it was like, I'm keeping this together. I'm, you know, kind of running this, making sure everything happens.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:43] You had some literary scriptural support of identity.

Mitch Hadfield [00:39:47] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] Yeah. Nephi was insufferable, wasn't he?

Mitch Hadfield [00:39:52] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] Okay.

Chris Lee [00:39:55] Beheading joke. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] What's that?

Chris Lee [00:39:57] Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Oh, I. I mean, I don't mean any disrespect to Nephi, but I think even within Mormon circles, there's kind of a joke that Nephi was a little bit too intense, maybe a little prideful.

Mitch Hadfield [00:40:09] I could see that a little bit.

High School, Pre-Mission Life, and BYU Applications

John Dehlin [00:40:11] Okay, so anything you want to share about high school or pre mission?

Mitch Hadfield [00:40:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] That's really fundamental to your testimony or your Mormon story? Anything, I guess.

Mitch Hadfield [00:40:22] Just a couple things. In high school, I always felt like I didn't really fit in at church, so I did a lot of sports, like I said, and then I was very kind of devout in my eyes. And in high school, I didn't feel like I really fit in anywhere at school, I kind of felt like a little bit of an outcast in. In my mind, I had a lot of friends, you know, in the sporting community and, you know, through other classes and things, but I always feel like I didn't quite fit in because I was Mormon. There were things I couldn't do.

Mitch Hadfield [00:40:51] And then at church, I felt like I was kind of looked down upon. I don't know if this was in my mind or if it was real, but hey, he's like a little edgy. He's doing all this, you know, he's with sports, he's with people who are outside the church type deal. And I felt like I didn't really fit in a lot, and that was kind of hard for me. You know, I didn't feel like I really had a home in high school as far as, like, peer groups go.

Mitch Hadfield [00:41:12] But I did have a lot of friends from a lot of different backgrounds growing up in D.C. you know, my basketball team, we had, you know, some Muslims, you know, just a. Just a big diversity, which was. Which was great and I think really helped me, you know, be okay with diversity and learn to love people who are different than me while still, like, believing that the church was the only true church and that eventually, like, everyone would have to accept it.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] Does there any favorite basketball role models?

Mitch Hadfield [00:41:38] Oh, actually, I was really quick. I did play church ball for a little bit, but I. I was kicked out of playing church ball for swearing, which is kind of a funny story.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] If I would never swear. No church ball.

Mitch Hadfield [00:41:51] You wouldn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:52] I love it.

John Dehlin [00:41:52] We.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:52] We just have, like. We had some. Some interest.

Mitch Hadfield [00:41:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:58] Some character interest. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] Some intrigue.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:01] Yeah. Do tell us.

Chris Lee [00:42:02] What's the word?

Mitch Hadfield [00:42:03] Yeah, so it's funny. I would. At my basketball, at. So the high school basketball team I'd play. I got a technical foul called on me for swearing. But it wasn't me. It was somebody else. And one of my teammates came to my side and was like, he would never swear. He's a Mormon. Like, told the ref. And anyway, and then I swore and got kicked out of church ball. So it's kind of. Kind of the dynamic I felt growing up.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:25] Church ball can. Can push someone to their limits.

Mitch Hadfield [00:42:29] You know, those poor refs, they didn't. They never were trained. They didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:42:32] So I found church ball to be much more violent than.

Mitch Hadfield [00:42:35] Oh, than regular basketball. It was. It was. It was.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] Yeah. When I was in Logan, I would agree. We won area a few years in a row, and we played some of those Southern Idaho teams, so they wanted to meet us in the parking lot after and fight.

Mitch Hadfield [00:42:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] They had to call one of the games and end it early because it got so violent. And I don't. I don't think it was us.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:56] Yeah. I was not kidding.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] You were there.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:59] Church ball.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:00] Can push people, too.

Mitch Hadfield [00:43:01] Yeah, that's right. To certain limits.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Yeah. So who's your basketball role model?

Mitch Hadfield [00:43:07] Oh, my bad. I. I always really like Dirk Nowitzki. I grew up in a German immersion program, so I thought Dirk was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] So Dirk was to your era, as Larry Bird was to mine. I hate to say this, but, like, the white guy that the white guys could. Could respect a little bit.

Mitch Hadfield [00:43:24] I liked him because he always looked awkward. He wasn't coordinated. I was never super coordinated, but I could always shoot shot very well and, you know, just always went in, so.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] And to be clear, I loved Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson and Charles Barkley and all the others as well, but I did feel a special kind of Larry Bird and you to Dirk.

Mitch Hadfield [00:43:42] Yep, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Which means you probably, like. Who's the guy that plays for Dallas now?

Mitch Hadfield [00:43:46] Luca Doncic.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] Luca.

Mitch Hadfield [00:43:48] Yeah. I like LeBron.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] You like LeBron?

Mitch Hadfield [00:43:50] I'm kind of a bandwagoner.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] You're breaking from the white boy and

Mitch Hadfield [00:43:53] you're going through the dam.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Yep. All right.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:56] Oh, dear.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] I know. It's just the psychology of the time. You want a role model, and sometimes you pick people who look like you. Sometimes you don't, but sometimes you do. Or maybe that had nothing to do with it. Maybe I'm projecting short. What's that?

Chris Lee [00:44:09] Stockton was short, so I got that.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] Okay. You like Stockton?

Chris Lee [00:44:11] Stockton A little. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] All right. So anything else about high school or.

Mitch Hadfield [00:44:16] Yeah, so I guess I. So I, I. My dad wanted me to go to the military academy. Coming out of high school, going into college, and so I started that application, but I didn't, you know, I've never really wanted to be in the military. Harm has always scared me.

Mitch Hadfield [00:44:30] So I only applied to a handful of places. One was, you know, George Mason, which was right by my house, which I got into. I didn't finish the military application, but I applied to BYU and BYU Idaho. Then you had to have an interview with your bishop. And I had a lot of friends who got into BYU Provo, and I didn't get in. And I, you know, I had this suspicion, you know, it could have been my grades. I had. I had really good grades, I think, at the time. And I, you know, I was in a lot of extracurriculars. So I kind of blamed my bishop for, you know, whatever he put on the application. But. But I ended up getting into BYU Idaho, so that's where I went.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Bishop put sword in church ball.

Mitch Hadfield [00:45:03] Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. So.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] So you got relegated to BYU iu.

Mitch Hadfield [00:45:08] That's right. So that was really. I wanted to leave home. I didn't want to stay at home and go to George Mason. I didn't want to put an application in the military academy. And BYU Idaho was really my only option other than that. I, you know, I didn't prepare very much for college in. In the sense of applying to a lot of different places. So I ended up going to BYU Idaho for a year before I. Before I went on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] Okay. Around. What year was that?

Mitch Hadfield [00:45:34] That would have been 2011.

Chris Lee [00:45:35] Okay.

Mitch Hadfield [00:45:36] Yep. So I was up in Rexburg.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] Yeah. Okay. And how was. How was BYU Idaho? Premission?

Mitch Hadfield [00:45:46] It was okay. I did, you know, socially. I didn't feel like I totally fit in. I would try to go to, like, some dances and things. And I was taller, so I've danced with some of the taller girls, and they'd talk to me and be excited and friendly, and they would ask, you know, where do you serve your mission? And I would say, I haven't gone on one yet. I'm planning on going soon. And then immediately all the excitement would kind of drop from their face and, you know, finish the dance. And I wouldn't talk to them again. I spent a lot of time up there.

Mitch Hadfield [00:46:15] They have what's called the eye center, and it's just like 10 basketball courts. So if I wasn't studying, I was just, you know, exercising or playing basketball. There's always people just playing a game or something. And that really helped me kind of make it through up there. If you haven't been Been there. There's really not a lot or there wasn't at the time, you know, a Walmart. The. The college, the temple and the high school. And that was kind of seemed like that was it.

John Dehlin [00:46:39] So similar to Ephraim.

Mitch Hadfield [00:46:42] That's right.

Chris Lee [00:46:42] We got the Walmart.

Mitch Hadfield [00:46:44] There's a Walmart in the. Up there as well.

Chris Lee [00:46:46] Oh, you got one.

Mitch Hadfield [00:46:47] There was, yeah. And a brawl caught up eventually.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] Okay. It was behind you. From Rexburg. Was behind you.

Chris Lee [00:46:53] Probably never happened ever, as signified by a Walmart.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Yeah. I love it. So you're kind of a gym rat. Did you do intramural?

Mitch Hadfield [00:47:02] I did intramural basketball.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] I relate to that.

Mitch Hadfield [00:47:04] Things like that. And. And interestingly, the other dynamic, too, kind of going into that time was there would be times where I would kind of transition from being very orthodox into thinking, hey, the church isn't true. And I would kind of taunt my mother and say, hey, I don't believe in the church. I'm not going on a mission. And that would kind of make her really upset. Anyway, so about that time, I kind of decided, hey, maybe I will go on one.

John Dehlin [00:47:31] And anyway, what was it that really pushed you and nudged you in the direction of a mission?

Mitch Hadfield [00:47:38] I didn't really have a plan for myself. I didn't know what I wanted to study. It was. It was a, you know, an expectation. You know, my dad went on one. He shared some positive experiences with me. How it. You know, he went to Korea and he learned Korean, and that's kind of what set him off on his career path in the military. And so, you know, I felt like I didn't have a plan. It was something to do. My family really wanted me to do one. And it kind of would have been a disappointment otherwise, you know. You know, they told me they were willing to pay for it.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] Maybe I missed this. But if you're Nephi, if you're the strict one nudging your family along, why wasn't a mission just an absolute. I'm doing it? Was it a lack of, like, a firm testimony? Was it. What was it? If you were Nephi?

Mitch Hadfield [00:48:27] Yeah. So like I said earlier, my mother was very, very strict. And so I would try to, you know, do things to kind of exert, like, I'm my own person, okay? And so a lot of times, it was a way to kind of show her, hey, like, I can do my own thing.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] Okay?

Mitch Hadfield [00:48:41] So.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] So ultimately, was there, like, some culminating event that pushed you over the top to go on a mission? Some spiritual or emotional experience or.

Mitch Hadfield [00:48:50] No. Not really. It just kind of happened in a natural progression of, you know, going to byu, Idaho. Everyone around you is going on a mission. It's kind of what you're expected to do. And then also the feelings of being super orthodox, wanting to, you know. Do what? Do what I'm supposed to.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] But it almost sounds like broccoli.

Mitch Hadfield [00:49:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] It doesn't sound like you were dying to go. It's like, oh, I gotta eat broccoli because it's healthy. Am I. Is that right or not?

Mitch Hadfield [00:49:15] Yeah, I. I wasn't.

Chris Lee [00:49:17] Was there cheese on the broccoli?

Mitch Hadfield [00:49:19] Yeah, no planes.

Chris Lee [00:49:20] Oh, gosh.

Mitch Hadfield [00:49:21] Just kidding. Yeah, I think kind of a combo of everything. I think I got more excited after I got a call and things like that, but kind of leading up to it, it was more to kind of make my family feel good and. And I also wanted to feel like I was doing all the boxes.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] Yeah.

Transitioning to College and Deciding to Serve a Mission

Margi Dehlin [00:49:41] I have a question for both of you, if that's okay. So it seems like for both of you, you, for your first year of college, moved from a place where it was not predominantly Mormon to now an experience where the majority of people. I actually don't know if that's true of Snow. Yeah, it is true. Okay. Where it is predominantly Mormon. What was that experience and change like for you and. Yeah, things you liked, Things that. I mean, did it feel hard? Did it feel great to have sort of that sense of support?

Chris Lee [00:50:18] So, yeah, I think it. I think it did. I. I remember actually the first time I went home, or maybe it was the first time, but one of the times I went home for a Christmas vacation or something, my dad picks me up from. I think it was Long Beach Airport. We're driving home, and I'm like, just kind of looking around at all the cars and the drivers, and I'm like, started to just notice a pattern that for some reason, never stood out to me. I said. Like, I said, dad, I don't think I've seen a white person on the freeway, you know, for like, 10 miles.

Chris Lee [00:50:54] And he's like, okay. You know, and it's not like I was. I didn't see race as a kid or something, but I just didn't really notice. I'm like, wow, it's like 99% LDS white. You know, like middle class.

Chris Lee [00:51:08] And I didn't really notice that for some reason. You know, I had a lot of friends who were different religions, you know, different ethnicities, different cultural backgrounds in high school. Yeah. Somewhere else, some weren't. And so I think initially it was awesome.

Mitch Hadfield [00:51:24] Right?

Chris Lee [00:51:25] Because like, oh, everyone has the same values. And again, I wasn't really picked on for being Mormon or anything in high school, but I think after a while the. You start noticing the cultural things. Right. And this is pretty typical if someone's from like an out of state LDS person.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:42] Right.

Chris Lee [00:51:43] They'll be like, why are people looking at me weird? Oh, I have like a colored shirt on at church. Right. So you start noticing things that like, that wasn't a thing where I was from. Like, is this. Oh, that's a Utah thing. And it actually becomes kind of a point of pride.

Chris Lee [00:51:59] Yeah. In fact, when my wife and I met our first day, we spent all night talking. That was like a huge part of our conversation was just like. And another thing about Utah Mormon is we like totally connected over how much better we are, you know?

Chris Lee [00:52:12] Anyway. Yeah. So I think initially it was awesome. And then you start seeing cultural differences and then I think it kind of became a point of pride, like, oh, I like Mormon for real, because there's not. This is all stereotypical. Right. But I do it for like these actual real reasons, not because, you know, whatever. This cultural stuff's getting all up in the way. So I think that's kind of how I remember it.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:34] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] Yeah. I was raised in Texas as a Mormon and I thought non Utah Mormons were the real Mormons.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:41] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:52:43] Mormons by force.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:44] Me too.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] Not Mormons by choice.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:46] Yeah. I was in Florida in high school and I remember it's a fundamentally different thing to be. To be different, like grow up and you're kind of the different. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, everyone's kind of the same. And now I'm.

Chris Lee [00:53:01] You like the difference, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:02] Yeah.

Chris Lee [00:53:03] You know, probably what, what it was for me was I tried Mexican food in Ephraim and they're like, no, the church isn't true here if they think this is real Mexican food. Just downhill from there.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] Mitch, What. What's your answer to Margi's question?

Mitch Hadfield [00:53:18] I think, I think for me it was a little bit of an orthodoxy driver at BYU Idaho. Sundays were very different. Nobody really went anywhere, did anything. Kind of stayed in your church clothes. A lot of people, not, not everybody. But I kind of picked up on the cultural don't, don't touch homework on Sundays kind of it became a little bit more of like a set apart day for me. And then also I really took to home teaching, you know, back when it was home teaching. But, you know, I'm Going to really take care of the people I'm assigned and, you know, do it every month. And I kind of became like, an upstanding, you know, home teacher.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:56] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [00:53:56] So maybe a little bit of a driver of orthodoxy, and then, you know, I mean, I. I enjoyed it at the time.

John Dehlin [00:54:03] Got it. Okay, so we got you both to pre mission. And again, where were you? Where were you called?

Mitch Hadfield [00:54:11] I was, sir. I was called to the Kiev, Ukraine, mission. Oh, yeah. So I was there kind of in the middle of when Crimea was taken. That was toward the second half of my mission, but I guess we can get into that Ukraine. Yep, Ukraine.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] And remind me, Chris, I've already forgotten where you got called.

Chris Lee [00:54:29] I don't think I said I got called to Boston, Massachusetts. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] Okay.

Mitch Hadfield [00:54:33] All right.

Chris Lee [00:54:33] It's a liberal area.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:34] Fun.

Chris Lee [00:54:34] I know. Yeah. So this is 2002.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] And was, Chris, was your mission the first time you started having serious doubts about the church?

Chris Lee [00:54:46] I don't. It wasn't even doubts about the church. It was the first time I think I started really kind of drilling down into, like, there's something wrong with me in the church.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Well, let's jump to it.

Chris Lee [00:54:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] I mean, Mitch, unless there's anything else you want to talk about.

Mitch Hadfield [00:55:00] Oh, that's great. Let's do it.

Chris's Mission: Mental Health Struggles in Boston

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Okay, so now we're jumping back to Chris.

Chris Lee [00:55:03] Yeah. So summer, Chris's mission. Yeah. Fun stuff there. I get my call probably sometime in the summer after my first year at snow. Super excited. You know, I remember watching documentaries about the Big Dig and all these things about the Boston metro area, just prepping for all this cool cultural history. I was considering majoring in history, and I loved history, so the prep was exciting. And again, I was on the tail end of.

Chris Lee [00:55:32] Most of my friends were already out. Some of them were already actually back, so it kind of exciting to see them come back and have positive experiences. And when it came time to go, this was. It's actually been 20 years. It's kind of like a weird anniversary, I think, to the month I was out in the MTC in 2002. And so, you know, I even remember doing, like, a. We did a huge family church history tour right before I left, or pretty close to before I left and did it in a big van and everything. And so a lot of this sort of stuff building up and being like, I.

Chris Lee [00:56:12] You know, I saw this is where the first vision happened. And so I was just, you know, getting into that. Into that exciting kind of missionary mentality. And I was. I was genuinely excited. And one of the things that's. That's hard when you start expressing any kind of doubt or having any kind of struggle. It. It's, you know, well, did you want to come? And it's like, yeah, I did. I. I'm not lying about that, you know.

Chris Lee [00:56:41] So it comes time to go and I remember getting dropped off the mtc and some of this stuff's probably not super significant, but I. The day that I get dropped off and at the time, you know, you're in this big sort of kind of hall, there's people speaking and it was probably the mission president, I think it was actually. I think it might have been Worthland's like brother or something. Is that right?

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Or son?

Chris Lee [00:57:08] Yeah. And that they would kind of like you would go one way and then your parents would go the other way. And my, I want to say it was like one of the only times I remember my dad getting a little teary eyed. He's very sort of stoic. I'm kind of the same way, so I get it. But you know, I think he was really proud and I was like really proud of myself for doing this. And I enjoyed the mtc. And I'm noticing that that's not normal.

Chris Lee [00:57:39] People, like, they hated that part. And then as soon as they left, things got better. Mine was exactly the opposite. And it wasn't a language speaking mission. So it was only, I think three weeks, maybe two. Three weeks. So I was not in there a long time. It does feel like you're in there for longer and it's a. It, it's. You almost forget, like, oh yeah, I'm in like Provo. There's like people outside of this place that aren't like here to serve missions. It's that insular, you know.

Chris Lee [00:58:10] And I had, I think that I had like a combined district. So there was, there are more of us that were going to different places in the States. And I got along with my companion. I got along really well with a lot of the people in the district.

Chris Lee [00:58:25] You know, I was always a little bit weary of, you know, and I had grown up watching like, you know, I was a little bit late to it, but like Seinfeld and SNL and all this stuff. And I'm thinking I'm gonna kind of need some humor, you know, when I'm here, because that's just how it is. And I like sometimes pushing it to a line and seeing how people react. I mean, okay, too far. I'm gonna back that up. And I knew mtc. Let's see where it is, it's kind of a fun little social experiment. You know, what can I kind of poke fun in and what can I not?

Chris Lee [00:58:53] But it was great. I made friends there who also had amazing senses of humor and was a really good experience in the mtc. And as soon as we left. So we fly out to Boston, we go into Logan Airport, and I remember sitting next to this Catholic guy who was just super chatty, and he was like, oh, well, I wish you boys the best. And.

Chris Lee [00:59:16] And I was like, what an amazing plane ride descending into Boston. This Catholic guy, just quintessential Bostonian, who is wishing us luck, and this is a good omen. And I get out of the plane and just started kind of instantly feeling kind of darker. I don't know how to explain it. It wasn't this overwhelming thing. I was like, okay, everyone says that it's kind of hard. You got familiar with the mtc. You had to say bye to a lot of the people that went different places.

Chris Lee [00:59:50] But, you know, this is why I'm here and everything. And again, I don't know how it's done really anymore, but, you know, you go into a room, there's all the missionaries, and you're getting to know everybody. They have snacks and everything, and then they. You're assigned to your trainer, and then we head out. So my first area was Pittsfield, which is, I think, almost the furthest west that you can get in the state.

Chris Lee [01:00:16] And I was like, oh, well, I guess I'll make it to Boston eventually. Whatever. That's fine, you know, and you almost feel guilty about, like, I want to be on Cambridge, like, holding up a Book of Mormon, like, preaching atheists. Right? Like, that's the fun stuff.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Harvard Square.

Chris Lee [01:00:32] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:00:33] And I was like, well, what's. I mean, really, Like, I'm in the pits. Like, the joke writes itself. Okay. It's fine. But you feel kind of guilty, like, you're here for. For this, and so you sort of push that away. And it wasn't a huge problem, but. And my. My trainer was just quintessential gung ho. Like, I hesitate to even use this example, but, like, think of, like, Book of Mormon musical, like, that kind of mission price. Yeah, Just, you know, like, just amazing guy. Like, let's train you. Do you need anything, like, super helpful.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:08] Earnest. Yeah, that earnestness.

Chris Lee [01:01:10] Yep. And he was really excited about helping me out and training me. And so before we left, before we went out, and this sticks out to me still very vividly. I am in. It was like, A little kitchen area. And it was. We were assigned our companions, and we're kind of just saying bye to each other. And there was a sister missionary who I was really good friends with in the mtc. And kind of weirdly enough, there was one moment where her companion left. And so my companion and I were assigned to her as like, these chaperones. And we're like, oh, this is kind of unique.

Chris Lee [01:01:54] Like, yeah, it's just for like a couple days, but just, like, walk her home. It was weird. It was almost like we were dating the sister missionary. We kind of. We would joke about it, right? In fact, one time we were in one of those big group meetings and she was in between us, and they were like, elders, like, that's inappropriate, you know? And we're like, she's our companion, right? They thought we were just messing around with them, so they, like, call us out and chew us out. And she's like, no, like, they're being serious. Like, they're kind of my temporary companions right now until I get a new one that comes in.

Chris Lee [01:02:21] And so, yeah, we would, like, drop her off and just sort of make reverse polygamy jokes and all that stuff. But so we became really close, right? As much as you can in the mtc. And so we're in this little reception area and kind of saying, hey, how are you feeling? Right? And is everything okay? And she's like, I'm a little nervous. I'm like, okay, good, me too. And we're being very honest with each other. And I said, well, like, good luck. We'll see each other at the next, you know, district meeting, whatever they're called, you know, and we high five each other, right? And which we did at the npc.

Chris Lee [01:02:58] And she walks away. And then I kind of feel this, right? And I'm like, I look and there's an elder, and then there's another elder over here. And I see this thing that's like, what does AP mean, Right? Oh, they're the president. Assistant to the president, right? And in kind of a low voice, one of them says, we just. Elder. We just wanted to let you know that high fiving a sister missionary is.

Chris Lee [01:03:31] And there was this term that was pervasive in the MTC culture and around that time, which was called quiet dignity. You guys ever heard of this term? I can't seem to find anybody, but people use it all the time.

John Dehlin [01:03:44] We believe you.

Chris Lee [01:03:45] Yeah, I'm like, looking around, like, anybody.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:47] It's. What is it called?

Chris Lee [01:03:48] Quiet dignity. Quiet. It was this, like, slogan and Keep in mind, this was. Oh, too. This was pretty close. You know, the bar was raised. Remember when Ballard did that in like maybe late 90s or something? And then Ballard came to the MTC with his. With his wife and they did this huge roleplay thing where they had two elders and they were talking about how they're. They're basically getting rid of the discussions and it's going to be this free form, you know, kind of open dialogue. And everyone was super excited. So they were kind of modeling it. So that was sort of some of the, I don't know, like, cultural milieu that I was coming into the mission with.

John Dehlin [01:04:23] Does that preach my gospel introduction?

Chris Lee [01:04:25] I think it was before that even.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] Okay.

Chris Lee [01:04:27] Yeah. So we were like, we get to see this, like in the mtc, like, these major changes. And of course, like, you go out and then the. The senior missionaries are like, well, you. You know, your grandfather didn't do the. You got to memorize it. And we're like, nah, like Ballard said, we didn't. Right. So there's like an immediate kind of fun, like a little bit of jealousy, I think, from the older missionaries. So, yeah. So anyway, this. This term was just like pervasive. I remember hearing this. And so, yeah, they just kind of chastise me like, you know, it's undignified to high five like anyone, let alone like a sister missionary. And just the. The way of like the sort of smarmy, like, arm around the shoulder and like super passive aggressive, like, okay. Kind of thing. Like, they didn't say that, but. And then. And then they leave. Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:18] And so south park reference you just made.

Chris Lee [01:05:21] You know, I've only seen one episode. Guess which one it is.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] Mr. Hanke.

Chris Lee [01:05:26] Nope. Oh, dumb da dum dum. It's the only one I've ever seen. I was Team Simpsons, like, all the way.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] Okay.

Chris Lee [01:05:32] Yeah. Plus we have cable, so. Yeah. So, yeah, they. They just. They chastise me. And it didn't take long to reflect on this kind of looking back, but something just kind of broke in my brain and it was.

Chris Lee [01:05:52] I don't want to use the shelf cracking because that's not really what it was. It had nothing to do with any LDS truth claims. It was just, you can't be here. You are not cut out for this. And all of this was like, unconscious. I wasn't even thinking about it like this. But it did start. It was. I think it was a catalyst for just constantly being in my own head and finding confirming reasons why you're not a good enough Mormon to be doing this because you high five to sister. Right? It's just stuff like that. And it's. Of course, it's ridiculous. And I think you kind of blow it off.

Chris Lee [01:06:34] But things just escalate, you know, mission culture, it's. It gets insane. You know, it's. I don't like this word. I don't think it's productive when it's being used in conjunction with the church. I get it. But, like, it. It was like, whoa, this is culty. Like, what? Like, I high five to a sister missionary. We were like close friends. Like, I felt like I made out with her. And that's like, maybe that warrants the amount of chastisement. Anyway, it was just. It was just nuts. And I just remember thinking, like, okay, it's one thing. It's not a big deal, but it was symbolic, I guess, is what I'm of.

Chris Lee [01:07:10] If that is a problem, I don't think I can be me. Right. Okay. It's time to not be me. It's time to put that aside. That's what a mission is about. And it just started this journey of. Short journey of how do I find my real self? Which is. Don't make jokes about anything, like, everything's serious. And so it was really hard kind of moving forward. So that was, I think, the first major kind of crack of mental health issues on the mission. And because I had never experienced depression, anxiety, as far as I know, I had nothing like that when I went to Snow.

Chris Lee [01:07:51] And true, I had family there, extended family. I didn't. I don't think I was ever homesick at all. I loved it. And so I wasn't worried about that. And so I didn't understand it. I was just thinking, what is this? Okay, well, it's, you know, it's opposition. Everybody told you that Satan's going to try to get in your head. And so don't make a big deal of this. And so it just sort of started this, like, vigilance of.

Chris Lee [01:08:15] Yeah. Looking for things that confirm that I was not the right kind of person to be there. I think I'm repeating myself at this point, but does that make sense?

Margi Dehlin [01:08:22] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:08:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:23] Margi's vibing. She's not.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:25] I just feel so much for you because of how isolating it would feel and how what I'm hearing is just sort of those controls being amped up to a level. And really, I mean, having this sense of self emerge where on some level you're feeling, I can't be me. I have this sense that I will self betray. I will betray myself if I. It's really, really powerful. And also to be al own. Like you're without your people. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:04] But to borrow on a military analogy, just like boot camp wants to break you down, and that's right up. High demand religions want to break you, your identity down and have you adopt the theological or spiritual or cultural mindset of the high demand religion. So it was a boot. It was a spiritual or theological or cultural boot camp for you, where they're basically saying, are you going to be you? Are you going to be who we want you to be?

Chris Lee [01:09:34] Yeah. And maybe there. There were a few moments like that in the mtc. I actually skipped over one that I just remember now. They would film you and you would teach fake investigators. They still do this. I remember that when I was there. But yeah. And they would bring you out and kind of like give you notes, like stage notes on, well, you know, you. You should have maybe do this. And like the whole thing was like, you need to be more emotional. Like, that's really what it was. It was hard for me because I was like, if I'm not really gonna feel it, this is fake.

Chris Lee [01:10:03] They're not really looking into the church. Like, why am I being. I just. I got kind of defensive, you know, and like, well, it's not real. So, like, why am I getting, you know, marked down? I'm getting like a D minus on this thing because they didn't actually grade it, but because I didn't cry, I got it. I can't manufacture that, I guess. So there were little things like that. I'm like, whatever. I can get past that. And so it started earlier, but I didn't. It's just weird that I didn't feel like the militarization thing didn't happen in emtc. It happened when I left, when those restrictions are often taken off.

Chris Lee [01:10:38] Right. For a lot of people that get out to the field. So, yeah, there are little things that kind of added up and you just start kind of like compartmentalizing, like, well, this is how it's supposed to be.

Chris Lee [01:10:49] You got to do this and this. And if that means losing yourself. And this is good, this is good for you. This is like why you're out here. Right. So that was kind of my initial experience. And I wasn't out.

Chris Lee [01:11:03] This was maybe two, three weeks in, and it just got worse. And it's hard to explain it now because I haven't really had it happen since then, the anxiety and depression. And I didn't actually Talk to somebody until maybe four or five weeks in. I actually had to leave the state to go to New Hampshire to see

John Dehlin [01:11:23] a

Chris Lee [01:11:26] LDS Services counselor. And, you know, so there were a lot of things that kind of. That got me there, but just the feelings got worse. I'm like, why isn't this working? Like, I'm doing what I'm supposed to, you know, I'm like, checking off the formulas. I'm like, I haven't done this. I didn't do this. And I'm. You start, like, combing over the last year of your life. Like, did I lie on accident to my bishop? You know, like, was there a billboard I saw that had, like, a shoulder on it? And I'm like, was that it? No. You know, and like, you. You start becoming obsessive about, well, okay, I missed something because the formula is not working right.

Chris Lee [01:12:05] And so, yeah, I just. I. And I felt bad for my companion, so I just started developing depression and anxiety, and I didn't know what to do. And it got to the point where I would. I'd, like, lock myself in the bathroom. And I would call. Like, one time I called a friend who. I wonder if he remembers this, but it was a friend who I had at snow. And he's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I just need to talk to somebody, you know? And I felt like. Like, I gotta be quick. Because my companion, you know, and he probably would have been like, just didn't.

Chris Lee [01:12:36] He wasn't some taskmaster. But I would call people, you know, and I was like, should I call my parents? Like, no, that's gonna be a. You have to tell them everything's okay. And I tried that for a few weeks, you know, and we're visiting members, and I'm trying to put on, like, the. Hey, everything's cool. And we're trying to teach people. And it. You know, part of it, too, was it was getting to be winter in Boston, and it was dreary and it was freezing and it was snowy, and we were in a very, you know, working class, like, poor area, which made me feel guilty because I'm like, am I being classless?

Chris Lee [01:13:13] Is that why I'm feeling bad right now? And I just can't identify what is, because I've never experienced any of this before, right? And so if it's how to identify what the problem is? And I remember getting to the point where I get so numb, where I'm getting blessings, and I'm like, I. I already know what they're going to Say, I've heard it before. And they're gonna say, well, read the scripture. I'm like, oh, is it this one? And they're like, yeah. And I was like, sorry. I'm like, I can predict what you're going to tell me, right? I have that marked. Like, give me something new, because none of this is working.

Chris Lee [01:13:43] And, you know, I finally got the mission president involved, and, I mean, he tried so hard to make it work. He moved me with a. With a. Another elder who was. He had maybe two weeks left of his mission. And he says, don't let the President know. But, like, if you want to go see the Star wars movie, like, if you want to go do anything, I, like, don't care. Whatever you think will help you. I'm done. I don't really care what we do if you want to sleep in, you know, And. And he was trying to help me in that way, and I was just like, no, like, that's not, like, the right move, so we got to keep doing it.

Chris Lee [01:14:23] And like. But I appreciate that you're trying to not put pressure on me. And at one point, I. I went out and I stayed the night at the President's home. And I remember he's like, I want you to go up in this room and just pray, right?

Chris Lee [01:14:39] And it wasn't like, pray to figure out what to do. It's like, pray and then stay, right? And so I'm up there for hours, you know, and he. He's letting me, like, he'd come up with the phone and be like, this person from your young men's is on the phone, you know, do you want to talk to this person? And so I'd be like. And I would get these, like, joyful feelings, like, oh, you know, I don't know if I showed your names or not here, but it was a Jones. It's a young men's leader who I, like, I loved. And I still have this guy, you know, And.

Chris Lee [01:15:14] And he would just make me feel a little bit better in the moment, you know, And. And I don't. I just day. I don't know, like, how curated these calls were. And he's. You know, and my dad. I mean, I still have these letters from my dad just like, pouring his heart out, being very vulnerable, I think, for him, and saying, I will fly out and I will live with you for a week. Whatever we need to do. And of course, he didn't know that. This is making it so much worse. The ward's fasting for him. Why would you Tell me that.

John Dehlin [01:15:52] Like now I. Oh, your home ward was told that you're struggling.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:55] Oh my gosh.

Chris Lee [01:15:56] So you know, I'm like, well, and it's not just that, like, oh, cool, now they know. But now I gotta stay out for another two months because prayers don't work for a thousand, you know, like 200 people. Right. So it's just, it's more pressure and I get that. Like, no one had those intentions, but none of this was really making it better. And finally my stake president is on the phone. And so this like day long sort of thing where I'm praying on and off and he's bringing me the phone and everything and he says, look, my, my. I think my son had what you're experiencing when he came home from his mission.

Chris Lee [01:16:38] And I think my daughter had this when she got married. So he's like. And I don't think the president would want me telling you this if he knew this, but if it's like what I think it might be like, you need to get out of there. Like you, you might need to come home. And it was the first time anybody had even suggested that was this again, it was my stake president back home.

Chris Lee [01:16:57] And you know, he's like, I don't want to tell you what to do, but like, you need to know that this is an option and it's okay. And I just, it was like, you know, I finally, someone's like allowing me to like even consider this. Right.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] Did you, did you happen to see that clip I shared a month or two ago where Elder Holland basically says, don't leave, don't you d. Leave? Yeah, that he doesn't know. More pitiable group on earth than Mormon missionaries that return. Return home early. He says, you're going to ruin your life. Like, I'm guessing that was the culture you were facing at early. But, but that, that can have disastrous consequences on the mental health of missionaries.

Chris Lee [01:17:41] I'm sure it's a lot better. And I had, I had not heard that until it was shared.

Mitch Hadfield [01:17:46] Right.

Chris Lee [01:17:47] But this is exactly how it was. And people are telling you this, you know, and people kind of play good cop, bad cop, like, we'll think of these blessings and you're blessing your family and all this. But then it's like, well, what are the implications of that if I don't though? And then people would go bad cop. And I thought about bringing it, I couldn't find it. But I got a letter at one point when it was getting really close to like, I want to leave. Please let Me leave. And it was an area authority and it was like five pages of guilt, gloom, doom.

Chris Lee [01:18:19] It was like, you know, when you have like, you might, you're not going to meet the people you're supposed to, you know, when you meet your, your wife, you know, which like, maybe you like altered the course of, of that now and like, what are you gonna tell? I'm like paraphrasing, but it was like, what are you gonna tell your 19 year old son when it comes time for him to go, right? And I'm not in a mental state where I'm like, whatever, you know, you're like, yeah, all this is true. This guy has like priesthood authority over me. The mission president has priesthood authority over me more so than the stake president.

Chris Lee [01:18:58] So he's like a, he's like a consultant. But like, you know, I got to go with the state with the mission president. Right, because you're trying to like follow the authority. And it was just a horrible. I've never ever even experienced to the level I have now in terms of mental health, that feeling. And I start writing in my journal, like I can't get this out anywhere, but like I feel like I'm in a cage. And you know, I remember at one point I called the mission president and I was like, I'm not like asking, I'm not like having a conversation with you. I'm just informing you.

Chris Lee [01:19:32] If I can't get on a plane, like I'm using the rest of my money on my little car, which is like $100 and I'm getting on a gosh dang. I tried a bus. Like I'm, I'm leaving. I'm not. I'm just telling you that this is what's going to happen, you know, and he's like, okay, well let's try this. And I'm like, I'm sick of trying all these things. And I'm skipping over quite a bit of things that they had tried to like, to do with the talking to the counselor, which was just like, have you tried praying? Have you tried. I'm like, okay, I knew like five minutes in, like this is not gonna help in any way, so.

Chris Lee [01:20:03] And I just like, you lose trust. I don't trust this person because they're, it's like the point, like almost a caricature where they say the thing and I leave and I turn back and I see like the mission president giving like him a bag of money and he's like, oh, shoot. And like runs off, right? It's like, oh, okay. Of course you're gonna say that. So it was hard, you know, I didn't want to disappoint the ward and my parents, and I'm, like, ruining the experience of my companions, and it just, like, folds in, and everything becomes your fault. And you start believing everyone that says.

Chris Lee [01:20:35] And this is what was the hardest, I think, was, again, this formula is not working. I can't find the thing I did where God's mad at me, and he's making me feel like this, right? And so once you kind of check off all these things, you know, the blessings and the scriptures and all of this, and you've tried teaching people about this thing and all that, then people can kind of get nasty, and they'll say, what did you do before you came out? And I'm like, nothing. Like, I'm not lying about that. I wanted to be here. And the worst part is that you start believing it because there's no other way out, right?

Chris Lee [01:21:13] And there's no explanation, because it's true. These things don't just happen, you know, it's. It's like reverse prosperity gospel. So it's something that I'm doing, and then things got really, really bad. So, yeah, the. The day that I decided, like, I'm leaving, and I'm, like, just telling people I'm leaving.

Chris Lee [01:21:33] So is it okay if I read Please, just a part of my. My mission journal? To this day, I'm still really bad at journaling because it's always so negative, and it's always the bad things, and I'm like, I don't want my kids to think my life is horrible, so.

Chris Lee [01:21:49] And I think no one's ever heard this except me. I don't think my wife's even seen this because it's embarrassing. It's a horrible part of my life I don't like talking about. So it's like a page and a half. But this. This was, like, the best way to describe my mindset at the time. It's also really angsty, embarrassing. So I will acknowledge that as I read this.

Chris Lee [01:22:10] But this was to me. I thought, no one's going to read this. This is a letter to me to try to, like, fix myself and to get myself, like, out of this funk. But it was mostly just accepting and being resigned to the fact that, like, you failed. Okay, so here's part of this. It says, the past week and a half have been the most difficult days of my life. I've never felt this bad. A sick feeling enters me whenever I think about staying Here.

Chris Lee [01:22:34] Sorry. My writing and the lighting is kind of rough, so. I have never been so selfish. And I know that I am only thinking of myself. I am trying, but things keep getting worse. There are so many wonderful people that are trying to help me. But this is my decision. And I feel I need to. I need to escape. I feel so trapped. The more I think about home, the more I freak out and want. Want to run away. The only feelings of peace and comfort come when I think about returning home. I know I will be sad when I return, but I will have family and friends here.

Chris Lee [01:23:07] I am alone. I've heard from so many people that I am not alone, but that's how I feel. I am not fit to do this important work. The bar has been raised and I cannot clear it. The Lord does not need spiritual weaklings. Elder Ballard said it during conference. I am wasting the Lord's time. I am a stumbling block to this great work. The work is great. I am not.

Chris Lee [01:23:31] I cannot bear to think of two years of this. The Lord needs strong missionaries. Since I've been here, I have lost my personality. I felt like I had like a personality lobotomy. I was like, nothing's even funny. It started to terrify me. I'm like, is it like I lost my taste forever? I'm never going to get this back. So I thought, well, I may as well leave because I've lost my entire personality.

Chris Lee [01:23:52] Little editorial here. As I read, I've talked to my companion. He's a great missionary. And my stubborn mind is so set that I will not listen. It will be hard to explain to everyone at home why I couldn't do it. If I knew this would happen, I would have never left home. My parents will be disappointed. There is no excuse for what I'm doing. I'm selfish, but don't know what that says. Let me keep going. I'm selfish. Just keeps repeating that my life will probably be all messed up. I know the church is true, but I can't do this. I feel bad when I pray now.

Chris Lee [01:24:26] If I love the Lord, why can't I serve a mission? I don't know. I am failing the Lord. He knows what I'm feeling. He felt it too. I only hope he will have mercy on me. I'm still a good person.

Chris Lee [01:24:39] I'm just not ready and willing to sacrifice so much and not be happy doing it again. The only comfort I feel comes from thinking that I can be home in a few days. I can't believe this is happening to me. Life's Ironic sometimes. Nevertheless, it is my choice. Nobody's forcing this upon me.

Chris Lee [01:24:56] It just kind of keeps going like I'm failing over and over again. I'm a terrible example, and I don't deserve anything. Please try to understand where I'm coming from. My desire, my spark, my love for the people is missing. My thoughts are focused on myself. Forgive me. I don't even know who I'm talking to. Like, is it me? Is it God? You know, is this Nephi right here? Nephi Psalm. I am nothing.

John Dehlin [01:25:21] Oh, wretched. Oh, wretched man.

Chris Lee [01:25:23] It's like I am nothing. And I ask for forgiveness. I just. Just want the sick, uneasy feeling to depart. The spirit is not here anyway. It just kind of keeps going like this. I'm sorry. I have failed my God, sincerely. Wait, surely he will fail me. I'm probably worse off than the very people that we are trying to share the gospel with. And then. So that was. This is November 23rd, 2022. So almost 20 years ago. And 2002. Oh, what did I say? Yeah, yeah, 2002.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] Okay.

Coming Home Early and Recovering After the Mission

Chris Lee [01:25:56] Yeah. And it. That. That was, I guess, the day I'm like, I'm. I'm out. I mean, I just. I have to accept that I'm leaving so little. Little bit into my mindset at the time. And I didn't plan on getting emotional. I'm not. Because it's been so long that I.

Chris Lee [01:26:16] It's. I'm so far removed from it. But it created a lot of damage that we can kind of get into a little bit more. So. So, yeah, so I end up leaving. I fly home. And the only thing I wanted to say, too, before we switch back over to Mitch, when the mission president drove me to the airport and I get out of his car.

Chris Lee [01:26:38] And I say this with empathy for him because he was trying to do everything he possibly could, good cop, bad cop, to keep me out. So I understand where he's coming from. But the last thing he said to me was, oh, just so you know, if an elder leaves early, the church won't pay for the plane ticket. Your parents do, but I think you need to do this. That was it. That was the last thing he ever said to me.

Chris Lee [01:27:03] So I even was hesitant. Should I even share that? But. So that. That was the thing echoing in my mind as I, like, dramatically, you know, walked into the airport with my stuff and just thinking, like. And I want to be clear, like, I didn't. I don't think I had any, like, suicide ideation or anything like that. The closest it Got. And this is in my journal, at points was, like, praying that, honestly, like, this was logical to me. Praying that if I can get, like, clipped by a car or, like, give me, like, half cancer, right, or something, so I can, like, go home, but then get better because I don't want to die, but, like, I can't be here.

Chris Lee [01:27:46] And mental health stuff, even at the time, you're just making crap up, you know, you had sex with your girlfriend and this is a stupid excuse to. People will tell you this, right, to just go home. So you need something physical that'll get you out of here, right?

Chris Lee [01:28:03] And then, yeah, get on the plane, fly home. I think I've ruined my entire life. And when I landed, my parents were there and they. They become a lot more understanding of what was going on. They just didn't understand what it was. I didn't have any experience with this.

Chris Lee [01:28:20] I remember going into the bathroom first, just like, trying to, like, gain any sense of composure and just losing it. Like, how am I going to face. How am I going to face my parents? You know? So that was really, really hard. And fortunately, they responded just in a way that was extremely soothing.

Chris Lee [01:28:45] I don't know, like, if my state president had to, like, smack my dad around a bit and be like, hey, like, the stuff you're doing is, like, not helping him at all. So. So the total experience was maybe like mid October to end of November. I mean, it wasn't a long experience.

John Dehlin [01:29:03] You're in the field how long?

Chris Lee [01:29:04] Maybe eight weeks. I mean, it really was not a long time. But it's funny how it's like proportionately 10 years, you know, so. And one of the reasons, too, that I think I'm probably not getting, like, hyper emotional as I read this,

John Dehlin [01:29:21] the

Chris Lee [01:29:21] guilt that I had lasted up until fairly recently and then it. It like reversed. I'll explain that later. But, yeah, so. All right, sorry, I've taken up too much time on that.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] No, no, I'll just. There's so much there. Thank you for being vulnerable. I'm guessing Margi's got something she wants to say. But I'll just say that's what happens when you stuff down who you are. It creates mental illness, depression and anxiety. It's unhealthy.

John Dehlin [01:29:50] But I'm also going to say it's a really terrible conflict of interest for the. For the mission to control who your therapist is, because the mission's only going to choose a therapist that's going to be. Well, too often a mission president is going to choose a therapist that's going to want to nudge you and push you to stay in your mission.

John Dehlin [01:30:09] And that's a conflict of interest. And it's unethical. It's. It's often unethical. And I'm sure there's some missionary therapists out there that say, hey, you'll be fine either way. Do what's best for you, do what's healthiest for you. But I think there's a conflict of interest there. A couple other things I'll just say is this experience you share is. I mean, just today we're releasing an episode on Mormon stories about a gay kid, gay Mormon kid who goes on a mission and he ends up wanting to die on his mission because he's got homophobic companions and he wants to jump off a bridge. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:30:44] Like, suicidality on a mission is real. You had partial suicidality, but that's a real thing. I just wanted to say that. And I also wanted to say that there's this massive problem in 2022 with missionaries experiencing anxiety and depression. I would say the stats are as large as over half of current Mormon missionaries serving are either have, or are experiencing some sort of anxiety and depression. And the stats of early return missionaries now in 2022 is something as high as a third of all missionaries called on missions. Mormon missionaries called on missions end up coming home early at some point on their missions. So mental health, pressure, depression, anxiety, suicidality.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] And I have missionaries reaching out to me weekly. Weekly. I have actively serving Mormon missionaries saying, hey, John, I'm on a mission. I don't believe anymore. My parents forced me to go. Happened twice this week. And they're like, what do I do? If I tell my parents, they'll be super disappointed.

John Dehlin [01:31:47] But if, but if I stay, I, I may not be okay. And I don't know what to tell these kids. I don't want to be the bad Mormon Voldemort saying, leave your mission. You know, like, I don't know what he's gonna. These kids are gonna face when they get home. So, like, I don't. I just wish there was. I just wish the church would just take the pedal off, foot off the pedal for all the pressure, all the guilt. I think they're trying to sometimes, but I just think it's still there in many, many instances.

Chris Lee [01:32:18] And it's probably better. I mean, they at least have some articles you'll see in the Ensign. I remember even, like 2010, I'm like, hey, Liz, look like my wife. Like, there's A thing about missions and depression.

John Dehlin [01:32:27] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:32:28] It's like, cool. There's something now.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] And I remember when. When my mission. There was a month on my mission where one elder was sent home for having sex on the bathroom floor with the bishop's wife or the branch president's wife. And then another missionary was sent home for molesting a kid while dressing him for their baptism. And the mission president pulls out this quote from, like, I don't know, Joseph Ewing Smith or Joseph F. Smith that literally says, I would rather return home in a pine box than without honor from my mission.

Chris Lee [01:33:05] Yeah. I don't think I had heard that at the time, but, you know, the sort of famous Hinckley story, right, where he's like, under a tree and he's reading a letter, he's like, oh, this is hard. And then it's like, what is it? It's like, go to work. And I mean, it's basically the idea of you got to quit thinking about yourself. Right. And that was super common at the time where everybody knew that talk and everybody had read that, and you pull that out and that's how you get over it. And so, like, I. I see value in that. I do. Right. Like, selfless service is great, but, you know, there's a.

Chris Lee [01:33:38] There's a line, and I just didn't know that it was being crossed for me, because I never experienced it. And then. And then you get back and, like, you know, you're. It was like, oh, well, in the. In the culture, at least in my area, like, there's. Everyone stays. There's like, you know, the one weird kid that comes home and everyone has rumors as to why.

John Dehlin [01:33:59] And then he had sex or.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:01] Looked at porn or.

Chris Lee [01:34:02] Yeah. And I was like, well, that's me now. So, like, what. What do I. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a fun thing to

John Dehlin [01:34:07] come back to and that you'll never marry a faith because a faithful woman won't want you if you return home early from your mission. Like, it's. There's so many awful things that. Yeah. We need to change that culture because it has terrible, terrible effects. Margi, were you going to add anything?

Margi Dehlin [01:34:26] I don't think so. Just. Thanks so much for. For sharing that. I feel so, so deeply for. I mean, it's clear in what you shared from your journal, that excerpt, just the cost of what happens. And I think this is. In your case, it's the mission for other people, they get married young, and for other people, they're mothers of, you know, many children or mothers at all or. Yeah. Right. So for whatever reason, when you're living the formula and you're doing your best to kind of show up in good faith and do the right thing, and then all of a sudden, for whatever reason, you're not having the experience, you expected that what you're told and what you experience is this sense of, it's you, it's your fault.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:20] And then all this aggressive energy towards you. And you know what this means about your innate worthiness, what you're capable of, what you know, what you're doing wrong. And that, that stuff, I feel like even after you leave the church and you can change your. Your beliefs and you can rebuild, that, that is sticky stuff. It tends to stay. And I see it a lot in coaching is this. This relentless self aggressiveness that that's what makes me good. That's what I need to be a good person, you know, and that is. That is just tragic.

Chris Lee [01:36:03] Yeah. And if the only solution is go harder. Right. And that's sort of kind of. And I'll kick it over to Mitch, but, like, that's the kind of last thing I'll say is, as far as how did this impact my belief in Mormonism's truth claims? No, not at all. It was, they're right. These leaders are right. I've kind of ruined everything, so let's rebuild. And that's kind of where I was. So this had really almost no impact on that, at least explicitly and consciously, other than maybe a little bit of nuance for. Well, these leaders mean well with some things, and this was maybe a few months later with a little bit of distance.

Chris Lee [01:36:46] They mean well, but they still are leaders with, you know, authority and from God. And so it's okay. It's okay to, you know, find a line with authorities who might not be completely 100% right because they don't know your full situation. And that was about as far as it went for me at the time.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:05] So what I'm hearing you say in that is just kind of. You. You swallowed it. Right. And you were kind of like, what they're saying about me must. Must be true.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] And how much of a walk of shame. It sounds like your stake president helped your parents treat you okay.

Chris Lee [01:37:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:24] Were there. Yeah. Were there negative social repercussions for you coming home early?

Chris Lee [01:37:28] So. So I. I didn't want to be home at all. I just needed to leave where I was, and I thought that'll. That'll fix it, I guess. And so when I went home, I was there for the rest of let's see. Probably December, so just in time for Christmas, and. Which is exactly what my parents wanted. That was the best present they could receive. Right? Just kidding.

John Dehlin [01:37:47] Oh, you leave as soon as possible.

Chris Lee [01:37:50] No, no. They. They. Oh. The other thing, too, is like, oh,

John Dehlin [01:37:54] you're saying me coming home early, it

Chris Lee [01:37:56] was kind of sad for them, probably, but. But they were really good about it. And like, my dad, he set me up with an actual trained psychologist who had a degree who he thought could help. And I think he even came with me once.

Chris Lee [01:38:15] I don't know if he was in the room at the time. And then my ward was actually really cool. I remember my bishop at the time came over and just said, you know, is there anything that we can do? We. He just acknowledged, like, we understand how it's awkward. Right. And I think it's more in your head than people in the ward. I think people are just happy to see that, like, you're okay. And. And. And he. I always remember this, and I love that this is so. This. This really touched me. He said he's like, I can go through and I can point at every single family in this ward and just dump all the crap they're dealing with, and no one knows. Okay. So, like, just trying to make me feel like you're not alone, any of this, you know?

John Dehlin [01:39:01] And.

Chris Lee [01:39:03] And so I. I came home to, I think, a really friendly environment, but I immediately decided I gotta go back to snow College. I need to. I need to get busy. So I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna go to school. And that was. And I won't get into it, but that's where I regained my sense of humor. And it was really dark because you'd see people and they'd be like, hey, what? You're not supposed to be here. Right. And so I would lean into it and have fun with it. That was my way of coping. So I would say it wasn't horrible when I came back to snow College. It was more awkward. And in my experience, individual people are usually empathetic and understanding, and they're willing to hear you out, but you get two or three, and the story changes. So that was kind of my experience with. With that coming back.

John Dehlin [01:39:51] Sounds like you kind of came back to yourself a little bit.

Chris Lee [01:39:54] Yeah. And it was. I mean, I remember, like, trying, like, is this thing funny? Like, is. Because I feel like I lost my sense of humor. And I know that that's. I'm not. I don't want to, like, limit my entire identity to, like, things that I think are funny, but, you know, it was significant. And it was symbolic as, oh, maybe I can be. But it also did. There was dissonance there because I'm like, my leaders are right. I screwed everything up and I'm going to destroy my life. And maybe I can, like, be a ministering angel with the other terrible people in the celestial kingdom at the bottom level, if I can make it there to that point.

Chris Lee [01:40:29] But that kind of conflicted with. But why do I feel better? Like, this doesn't make any sense. I feel happy again. And it's. Things bounce back. And I thought, how is. I kind of thought I was gonna have to deal with this. And in fact, the. The psychologist, after a few times, I'm like, I think I'm good. I don't think I need medication, even. I don't. I was a little prideful with that. I'm like, I'm gonna try to not do that.

Chris Lee [01:40:54] So it just seemed like getting back. And I took 18 credits. My advisor was like, I wouldn't do this. I'm like, I'm gonna do it. I was busy. I had an amazing social life, and I. It was really good. And so I thought that, why am I feeling better? So there was definitely a conflict that I had not quite worked through.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] Here's a hard question.

Chris Lee [01:41:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:15] Ready? Did you hide from the girls that you returned early from your mission

Chris Lee [01:41:23] there?

John Dehlin [01:41:23] No judgment. No judgment.

Chris Lee [01:41:26] That's a great question. You know what? I think most of them had graduated and had moved out, so it was like a new crop in. I don't know. I don't remember that. Probably. Yes, I guess, right. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:40] Huh. But I love that you brought up the point of him kind of saving himself or coming back to himself, because I do think it's one thing to do that in those younger years, you know, as you're adulting just like, newly out in the world in this. This experience of Boston, you know, this controlled experiment. It's another thing to have this experience that's so conflicting with everything you've learned. It should feel like or be, and then be told, like, what it means about your life that you're going to be destroyed, that everything, you know, you dream about and everyone else is going to have it, that all they have to do is finish their mission and they'll meet who they should meet and they'll.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:23] Or whatever. And basically you're, you know, your life is, you know, going to be such a disappointment and miserable. And you're like, I still need to. I Mean, that's powerful to me. Yeah, that is really powerful.

Chris Lee [01:42:36] I guess I thought it was fleeting, right? Like I am eternally kind of hosed unless I go back out or figure something out. Maybe I'll go out as an older person with my spouse, then I'll like do it. Right. And so. Well, I'll get into this more later in the, the college years. But the overcompensation, like kicked in big time and you start seeing. It's just like the sense of unfairness. I'm like, well, like this guy, he's like doing shots. He went on a two year mission and he seems fine. Like he gets a pass. He's like marriage material. But then I come home early for legitimate reasons, I think.

Chris Lee [01:43:09] Oh, the church told me that they were legitimate. Like two weeks after I got home, I get a call. I'm living with my grandfather who lives close to campus. And they're like, this is so and so from like, what is this? And like, we wanted to let you know that you have an honorable release, you know, and if I'll be honest, my first instinct was like, why do I. I was kind of upset about that. I'm like, what is this, the military? Like, I volunteered, I'm paying. I mean, not out of my own money, but like my family, like, and I. And I need like, you know, praise from Caesar.

Chris Lee [01:43:39] Like to some, it just kind of bothered me and I was like, oh, okay. I didn't even think about that. But it's weird to know that you had to consider that my mental health issues may have warranted a court martial or whatever the Mormon equivalent of that is on a mission. So, yeah, you just start seeing this social mission inequality, like, what do I got to do to get to the point where I'm as good as the person that went two years, you know, and I did a lot of stuff, so I'll get there. But yeah, sorry, I'm taking way too much time. But the mission thing is like a big part of my story.

Chris Lee [01:44:16] So. Yeah, one more story I'd like to tell is just how that reflects how lonely I think this was. And this might have been just my experience at the time, but this is something that you just didn't talk about. No, no one talked about this, especially if it was for non health, like physically, you know, health related reasons.

Chris Lee [01:44:39] It. So it was super lonely. And I ended up getting a call from an acquaintance that I had who was living up in Salt Lake, and we met a few times through mutual friends and I said, oh, hey, you know Drew, what?

Chris Lee [01:44:55] Like, what's going on? And he's like. He was a little bit hesitant. He says, I. I heard that you came home from remission early. Like, did that happen? I was like, yeah, it's pretty recent. And he says, yeah, I just. I had heard about that, and I got your number from so and so. And that happened to me. And I have not been able to talk about it since I came home, like, you know, six months ago or whatever. It had been a lot longer than I had been home.

Chris Lee [01:45:25] And I just need someone to talk to. And I like the fact that we didn't really know each other, I think really highlights that he had no one to talk to. He says, I can't even talk to my parents about this.

Chris Lee [01:45:41] And again, maybe we were, like, isolated where other people did not experience that. And so we talked for, like, three hours about, you know, just. Was it like this? Yeah, like, exactly like that. And it was just this understanding of, like, things that we couldn't articulate on our own and not talking about it, you know, you're not reflecting on it. You kind of want to move past it. But it was so, you know, cathartic and valuable to sort of build this relationship over this phone conversation.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] And so he returned home early, too.

Chris Lee [01:46:16] Yeah. And, I mean, it must have been, like, a few weeks later. I don't know exactly the timeline, but I, like, literally, in a newspaper, see that he was killed in a car crash, and I just get these chills. And I just. I remember, you know, thinking at one point, I'm glad he got that out, you know, that we were able to have that conversation because he was just keeping it in, and he can talk to friends about it. It was just this shameful thing. And I think that that kind of maybe planted a seed. Like, you know, maybe this is something that should be open more, you know. So I just. I just. I kind of had forgotten about that until right now. But it just shows how isolated people can be with this, and I hope it's better now. I hope it's not as taboo to talk about this.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] So one of the things I've noticed, like, with the baseball baptism, soccer baptisms kind of thing, the church will have a real problem culturally on missions, and then they'll, like, wasps or weeds. They'll try and beat it back a little bit when it gets negative public exposure, but then it just. It, like weeds or wasps, they just. They come back, and it's just. Unless you make really systemic changes at the core, it's just going to be temporary, these attempts at changing things. But there's so, like. Like this Holland video.

Chris Lee [01:47:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:41] That I. That I shared a few weeks back where Holland says horrible things about missionaries who return early. That was like a audio tape or a videotape recording that wasn't shared officially by top church leaders. It's like what mission presidents or missionaries or bishops or whoever kept in their drawers or filing cabinets and brought out whenever a missionary was thinking about leaving home early. So there's this cultural layer, just like, you know, like when Spencer B. Kimball declared oral sex to be sinful. Like, you can. You can make declarations that try and make changes and change the culture, but you've got decades, if not centuries of conditioning that. That persists. That's right. I think that's why this is so hard. That's why superficial, cosmetic changes are really just temporary.

Chris Lee [01:48:39] Yeah. I don't think that there was even any data at the time. Like, no one knew. Like, does this happen anybody else? You just feel like, I guess it's. You're in the vast minority. Most stay or it's health reasons or something. So you feel super alone. And I actually. There was a colleague I had at UVU at one point who was actually researching this in maybe 2015, 2016. I remember that Chris Doty, awesome stuff. She did some presentations on this, but she was actually examining this, doing qualitative research on what's your experience coming home. So I know that there's more now, and I think she might have been invited even to present to church headquarters. Like, what are you getting? And I think the church genuinely seemed interested, like, we can use this to. To help. So I hope that they have.

John Dehlin [01:49:30] Yeah. I'll just give. For those who care more about this issue, I did a whole series on Mormon stories about early mission return, or. I think I interviewed six missionaries that returned home early for various reasons. So we'll include that in the show notes. All right. Well, Mitch, you've been really patient.

Mitch Hadfield [01:49:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:46] You went to Ukraine. Yes, I used to say the Ukraine. And then I learned that you shouldn't say that because I have a Mormon Stories episode with the Ukrainian.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:54] Oh, cool.

John Dehlin [01:49:54] But Ukraine is in the news even today. Ukraine is in the news.

Mitch Hadfield [01:49:58] That's right. Yep. Unfortunately. Yeah. So I got my call to serve in the Kiev mission and, you know, prepared, tried to learn a little bit of language, learn about the culture, had talked to some missionaries who had previously gone there and. And got really excited about. About going to a foreign mission, learning a language. Am I good? Okay. And I went to the mtc a couple days after then president or Thomas S. Monson, who was the prophet at the time, gave an announcement about the age change. So kind of like 20. Let's see, it would have been 2012 in October. And that's when I went into the MTC. And my MTC stay was for.

Chris Lee [01:50:49] For.

Mitch Hadfield [01:50:50] I think it was for three months, so 12 weeks. And I remember at the MTC had a great, great district. A lot of people, you know, I meshed well with. I felt like, you know, we were friends and things like that. But I remember feeling a lot of guilt in the mtc. Every week. You would.

Mitch Hadfield [01:51:11] They would have. On Sundays and on Tuesdays, if I remember remembering correctly, they would have big devotionals where all the missionaries would come. This was at the Provo mtc, come into the big, you know, gym and. And they'd bring in different speakers. And it was kind of a joke in our district. But the first or the second speaker we listened to kind of listed off all these like, kind of morbid scenarios. Maybe, maybe not morbid, but sad things. And he was like, stand up if your girlfriend's broken up with you since you've been here. Stand up if you're homesick. Stand up if you, like, feel depressed.

Mitch Hadfield [01:51:41] Things like that. That was kind of like a rolling joke in our. In our district. It was like, like, you know, stand up if you're depressed, stand up if. Blah, blah, blah. But it did kind of describe, I don't know, kind of how I felt in the mtc. I.

Mitch Hadfield [01:51:56] There was a lot of guilt tripping done as, like, have you confessed everything? You know, and I remember just feeling a lot of guilt for undisclosed, you know, just things that normal people growing up would do. Messing around with a girlfriend and masturbation, things like that, and just feeling like, so terrible and wanting to, you know, not feel that way. And I remember reaching out to, you know, I don't remember exactly how the priesthood structure was in the mtc, but whoever the leader was and just chatting about that with him and like thinking, oh no, am I going to go home for. For masturbating? Things like that undisclosed before my mission.

Mitch Hadfield [01:52:30] And they were like, oh, it's okay, thanks for telling us. Great, let's, you know, you're fine. But so that was kind of a theme in mtc, was just feeling. Feeling a lot of guilt, not feeling good enough. You know, it was fun to learn Ukrainian, learning about the culture. One of our MTC teachers was a Ukrainian and one was an American who had served in Ukraine So a lot of good experiences, a lot of, A lot of guilt as well. I enjoyed, you know, aspects of the MTC.

Mitch Hadfield [01:53:05] I do remember for Thanksgiving, they let us watch 17 Miracles, and I was getting an ingrown toenail at the time, and so I had an appointment to go get an ingrown toenail surgery. And after watching 17 Miracles, I remember going back to the MTC dorm and getting down on my knees and saying, like, you know, I just watched this movie. I believe in miracles. I'm really scared of needles and surgery. Like, please make this go away in the morning so I don't have to get this surgery. And I ended up going and having to get the surgery in the morning, and, and the other side of my nail grew in bad as well, so I had to get two ingrown toenail surgeries while I was at the mtc. So anyway, so it was kind of funny.

John Dehlin [01:53:42] But did you love MTC basketball? I loved MTC basketball.

Mitch Hadfield [01:53:46] Yeah. We played knockout every day. So that, that was a, that was a fun aspect for me, was the gym time.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] So I had those to ingrown toenail surgeries, too. I, I, I think basketball players get those for some reason.

Mitch Hadfield [01:53:57] Yeah. The doctor was like, hey, you can either have it now or you're gonna have to wait till you're in Ukraine. And let me tell you about the hospital situation. Ukraine. So I was like, okay, let's just do it now in America.

John Dehlin [01:54:05] So your miracle didn't happen?

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:08] No, it didn't happen.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:09] You did the formula.

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:10] Yeah, that's right.

Mitch's Mission in Ukraine

John Dehlin [01:54:11] So, okay, so overall MTC experience, good?

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:15] Yeah, it was good. Other than other than a good amount of guilt and shame.

John Dehlin [01:54:20] Yeah. And some get sent home if they didn't disclose certain sexual activities. Permission. That pressure cooker gets people sent home with the same kind of walk of shame that you experienced.

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:32] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:54:33] But with the real rumors swirling, you

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:35] know, and at the time, I didn't disclose 100 everything. That kind of comes in later. But. But, yep, you know, there's still always that shame, like, I'm not good enough anyway.

Chris Lee [01:54:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] Cracks in Nephi's. Yeah, that's right near.

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:49] I'm just. Okay, okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:50] Oh, dear.

John Dehlin [01:54:53] I'm saying it sort of mockingly. Okay, so how was mission in the Ukraine?

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:58] Yeah, so we, we went to Ukraine right before Christmas.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] Pre Zelinsky, probably by many years.

Mitch Hadfield [01:55:05] It was. Yeah. I think the president of the time was. I don't remember.

John Dehlin [01:55:09] That's fine.

Mitch Hadfield [01:55:09] Yeah, it's pre. It's pre Poroshenko. It's Yeah. Anyway, yeah, we went right before Christmas time period. So a lot of Christmas trees were up, decorations, things like that. And I remember meeting my mission president and he's now one of the quorum of the 70, Jorg Klebengot.

Mitch Hadfield [01:55:30] And he, you know, he's a German. I grew up kind of in a German immersion program, school type deal. So I was excited. I was like, this can be cool. I could speak a little bit of German to him and did in the, in the, you know, the initial interviews they have with the missionaries and, and was excited. And we opened up a new area that hadn't had missionaries for like 20 years. We couldn't proselytize or wear our name tags or carry books or talk to people for the first month and a half of my mission because the church wasn't formally registered in this city that I was sent to.

Mitch Hadfield [01:56:08] And so we would just go to like grocery stores, we go to the rec center, we played basketball with some of the youth in the city. Just things to try to meet people. So I remember that being a really fun time on my mission. You know, a lot of sports, a lot of just kind of, kind of felt like sightseeing, but also, you know, trying to find areas that we'd eventually teach people.

Mitch Hadfield [01:56:30] I remember my mission president was very big on physical exercise. So he would tell us that he would wake up at like 5:30 and he would run. And whenever he came to a new area, he would, he would go on runs with the missionaries and just really encounter. Encourage us to be physically active.

Mitch Hadfield [01:56:45] Um, and that kind of vibed with me just because that was one of my outlets growing up, you know, going on a run by myself, doing things like that. So I, I would, I would use exercise as an outlet. Um, as a missionary, I didn't feel like I had a lot of, you know, ways to relieve stress, ways to cope, you know, being with someone 24 7. So I would, I'd kind of use exercise as a, you know, as a stress relief, as a way to cope.

Mitch Hadfield [01:57:14] Anyway, I remember a time came in my mission where I was still feeling a lot of guilt for earlier undisclosed transgressions. And I remember sitting on a balcony and called my mission president and was like, oh no, I'm probably going to go home. And, you know, it wasn't sex, but, you know, things leading up to that with someone in my previous life. And so I called him and I talked to him and on the phone and he was like, are you sure this is everything? And I kind of Told him kind of everything I'd been through, and he's like, okay, you're fine. Like, let's just move past this.

Mitch Hadfield [01:57:46] So I remember feeling a lot of. A lot of guilt and shame up to that point. Eventually, in my mission, masturbation did come back, and I just felt terrible. I was like, no missionary ever masturbates, and this is so bad. Like, I'm so terrible. How am I going to teach like this?

Mitch Hadfield [01:58:01] You know? But once again, I didn't really have any outlet, any ways to cope. And so my mission president was like, okay, we can kind of get this under control. Let me set you up with a mission therapist. And so I believe at the time it was someone in a nearby Russian mission. I think it was an American, but who went on a mission. There is, like, a therapist for like, four or five missions, something like that. So it was over the phone, but I remember we would have these sessions. I think I met with a lady for a while first, and then it switched.

Mitch Hadfield [01:58:32] But the second gentleman I met with would kind of talk to me, and it was more of, like, a spiritual counselor rather than, like, actual counseling. But he would talk about, you know, if you. You know, you touch yourself, you're letting demons enter your body, and you need to really pray that, you know, Satan doesn't get hold of your body and all these kind of, like, demonic things. And I remember that really messing with, like, the way I was thinking about myself and about it was like, oh, no. Like, I'm gonna get possessed and I'm. You know. Anyway, it was just so not like, looking back.

Mitch Hadfield [01:59:02] I was in a really bad. In a really bad spot. And I remember walking down the street and we kind of. You talked about suicidal ideation, and John, you did as well. But I remember walking down the street at times and thinking, man, I could just jump in front of a bus and maybe this would go away and I'd kind of feel better about myself and things. Um, anyway.

John Dehlin [01:59:22] So you were feeling really bad.

Mitch Hadfield [01:59:23] I did. For. For a good chunk of my mission. Yeah, a couple months in there when it was.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] It was really bad because you can't. Maybe you want to stop.

Mitch Hadfield [01:59:32] Yeah, you want to stop.

John Dehlin [01:59:33] Three weeks go by your.

Mitch Hadfield [01:59:34] Yeah. Three weeks, five months go by. Don't you masturbate again. You're kind of the scum of the earth, you know, things like that. And there's really no other outlet on a mission. You know, the only time you can be alone is in the restroom.

Mitch Hadfield [01:59:48] Some of my companions were great and would go running with Me, you know, I loved exercise, and that was a great outlet. And I got to the point where I was exercising in the morning for the morning time, and then evening for like an hour before I went to bed, just to try to just cope with stress of a mission. You know, I mean, you're talking to people all day as an introvert. You don't really have a ton of time for introspection other than your morning scripture study. But that's kind of already filled with, you know, reading certain things. And our mission got split, and it became the Lviv mission, which is a city in Western Ukraine.

Mitch Hadfield [02:00:23] And we had a new, new mission president. And he was older. And, you know, the mission culture kind of shifted at that point. You know, just depending on the kind of flavor or temperature of the mission president, kind of everything changes a little bit. They have new rules, new things like that. And he found out that I, you know, I don't know if it was just me or if it was other people exercising because of the previous emphasis on, you know, physical health from the previous mission president. But he. He ended up shutting down. He's like, only exercise during the 30 minutes in the morning.

Mitch Hadfield [02:00:55] Don't do it in the evening. It's against the rules. Don't do that. And I was feeling really upset. I was kind of feeling a little bit wow. Kind of like. Like I couldn't breathe because I didn't have, you know, I didn't have an outlet.

Mitch Hadfield [02:01:10] And so I went to talk to him, and I remember, you know, we were both kind of, I think, confrontational during that meeting. But I remember I was like, I want to be healthy. I want to take care of myself. And he's like, you're not here to be healthy. You're here to serve the Lord.

Mitch Hadfield [02:01:26] And that was so, so hard to hear. And I just felt so angry after that. I, I, you know, it wasn't Monday. That's the only time at that time serving a mission when you were allowed to email home. But I went to the computer cafe. It was like, in Ukraine, we didn't have a, you know, we didn't have tablets, iPads at that point. We just had a little Nokia phone. But the only place to use the Internet was at, like, cyber cafes that they'd have around the city. So I remember going with my companion. I was like, we've got to go. I need to send an email.

Mitch Hadfield [02:01:55] So I sent my dad an email and just kind of told him, like, I not sure I can take this. Things like that. Um, got an email back from him a little bit. Like, you got it. Like, kind of calm down. Stuff like that. Like, just do it. It's not a big deal. Um, and I. Anyway, anyway, so that was really hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:11] Um, that sounds so hard. That sounds so hard on. And I actually have not really thought about if you're introverted, you know, or how that would play out, how difficult that would be within a mission kind of structure. That's such an important point. And needing extroverts too. You know, quite frankly, it's a human need to have some time and space for yourself. But feeling at that point, I just. I so can get a feel for that of what it's giving you. Trying to get your basic needs met and you're given this such a narrow amount of time, and then it's so expansive and controlled during the day.

Mitch Hadfield [02:02:55] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:55] And extroverted. And then to have it taken away, the feeling of desperation there and then just really trying to do something healthy, which is go and. And vocalize your need and concern and advocate for yourself and have the person be like, yeah, I don't really care about that. That's not really the point.

Mitch Hadfield [02:03:14] Right, Totally.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:18] So what did you do from there?

Mitch Hadfield [02:03:20] Yeah, I'm trying to. Trying to think back. I. I ended up staying. I think that was, you know, maybe I had like six months at that point left in my mission, you know, and you were talking about how. How maybe it's hard sometimes for introvert. Our mission culture was very much talk to every single person you pass. Like, if you pass someone and you don't talk to them, you're depriving them of a chance to learn the gospel. And you're like, you're kind of robbing that person.

Mitch Hadfield [02:03:47] And as an introvert, that was also very challenging because, you know, it was hard for me to put myself out there, you know, in a new language, a different culture. You know, people already feel uncomfortable. They think you're the Jehovah's Witnesses a lot.

Mitch Hadfield [02:04:02] And so to just try to talk to everybody, it was very. No, it was scary. It was. It was exhausting, you know, by the end of the day in our mission. And it kind of changed towards the end, but we didn't have a real culture of eating dinner. We lived in an apartment that was maybe 30 minutes from where we were going to spend most of the day. So it was kind of a hassle to have to go back and eat, but at the same time, it was a little expensive if you were going to eat out or grab something every day. So we kind of had a mission culture of, you know, you just keep teaching, and at 9, 30, 10, when it's time to go home, you go home and then you can eat dinner.

Mitch Hadfield [02:04:35] I remember. You know, and that's. That's kind of goes back to your needs not being met. But I remember one time I was out tracting with the companion, and I was like, man, I really want to go eat dinner. Let's go eat dinner. And he was like, you know, we could do that, or we could go tract for another couple hours and then you can eat. And that's what we ended up doing.

Mitch Hadfield [02:04:52] And so, you know, it was just really hard to take care of yourself physically, but more so mentally and be a. And be a missionary and feel like you're doing, you know, everything you're supposed to do.

John Dehlin [02:05:06] Yeah. So I guess I want to know how, if. If. And how that affected your testimony in your mission and maybe how your mission ended or anything else you want to tell about your mission.

Mitch Hadfield [02:05:17] Yeah, I. I don't think it affected my testimony. I think I still was very much a literal believer. You know, a lot of it was directed inwards at me. You know, I can't hack it, you know, all the struggles. I'm sure lots of people feel that way, but I'm not good enough.

Mitch Hadfield [02:05:36] It ended, you know, I think I had a happy stretch for the last five months of my mission. I was with a, you know, companion who was, you know, very happy, very outgoing. Yeah, the last area. Last couple areas I was in were pretty happy. We did a lot with members, I guess. Something else to mention on my mission, though.

Mitch Hadfield [02:06:01] I was in Ukraine when Crimea was attacked by the Russians, and there were demonstrations in the street. Government buildings were being ransacked, burned down, destroyed. I remember seeing lines of tanks go by. And I don't think. I mean, maybe. I think maybe they told us what was going on, but I don't think I really grasp exactly what was going on at the time.

Mitch Hadfield [02:06:27] But I don't remember ever feeling scared about it. I remember thinking, oh, I'm on a mission. I'm 100% safe because I'm serving God. Anyway.

John Dehlin [02:06:40] You're taking me back a bit because in Guatemala, there was a coup d' etat while I was a missionary.

Mitch Hadfield [02:06:44] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:06:45] And there were tanks and soldiers going through the streets as we're just, like, directing. You know, as a missionary, you're just like, oh, yeah, yeah, no big deal. The Lord protects me.

Mitch Hadfield [02:06:55] I'm good.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] The Lord blessed Ammon to chop off.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:59] I'm wearing Garments.

John Dehlin [02:07:00] I'm wearing garments.

Mitch Hadfield [02:07:01] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:07:02] I'm good.

Mitch Hadfield [02:07:02] The Brethren would tell my mission president if we need to leave, so we're safe.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:07] Yeah. Okay. So overall, how would you say, you know, your mission was for you?

Mitch Hadfield [02:07:13] I would say it was a pretty decent experience. I. I can kind of get.

John Dehlin [02:07:17] Other than you wanted to die?

Mitch Hadfield [02:07:18] Yeah. Yeah. I guess there were some dark. Some really dark points. Overall, it was a pretty good experience. I had a lot of childhood trauma growing up. I didn't super get into that. I don't necessarily need to a ton, but it was nice to kind of be on my own, even though that was on a mission where you're not exactly on your own and everything's kind of constructed. But it was nice to kind of have that separation from. From my parents.

Mitch Hadfield [02:07:48] Yeah, I would say it's a good experience. Met a lot of friends to this day. I loved learning about the Ukrainian, you know, people. It was really cool to see, you know, people would find out, hey, we're here without our moms, we're all by ourself. And people would just kind of open up and they'd be like, you know, I don't have a lot of food, but here's like, here's what I do have. Please take it. You know, just. Just really saw another part of the world and kind of opened my eyes to a lot of, you know, a lot of things I wouldn't have considered.

John Dehlin [02:08:22] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [02:08:22] So

John Dehlin [02:08:24] beautiful. Well, I. I think Marty will join me. And you've already said this, Margi, how grateful we are, Chris and Mitch, that both of you are willing to share the tougher parts about the mission. Because again, it's a major problem facing the Mormon Church today. And if we don't talk about it, silence is the enabler. Silence is killer. And if we don't talk about it, literally, yeah, we don't talk about it, it's never going to get better. So I think what I want to do is have wrap this up as it's going to be a part one, and we'll label it something around struggling to complete a Mormon mission.

John Dehlin [02:09:01] Which means that we'll. We'll go ahead and wrap up for now at about 2.2hour 15 minutes. We'll thank everyone for joining us for part one. And then we'll say, don't go away. Come right back for part two. We'll have the very next Mormon Stories episode be about your faith journeys post mission, and then how your lives came together as brothers in law.

Chris Lee [02:09:24] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:09:24] And then how you supported each other and then whatever counts. How. How. Also that was for other believing members of your mutual extended families. And then how you know where you are today. And maybe some tips for believers and non believers navigating loved ones in a Mormon faith crisis. How does that sound? Great.

Chris Lee [02:09:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:09:45] Yeah. Any final words before we end this episode?

Chris Lee [02:09:48] Oh, I think we're good. I'm. It's getting great to talk about it.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] Okay. Margi, any final words? No.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:55] Excited for part two?

John Dehlin [02:09:56] Yeah. I'll just say, if you are a Mormon missionary and you're listening to this, our heart is with you. We love you. No one can tell you what to do. It's not a trivial matter to leave a mission early. And it can be deadly or super unhealthy to stay on a mission when it's not working for you.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] I would say insist on a licensed, competent therapist who is has allegiance to their code of ethics, which is to put your interests over any other biases or values or interests that they have. Get a good. Insist with your mission president or stake president or parents on a competent, independent, viable therapist. And maybe that's the best advice I can give to you. And make those decisions about medication, about staying or about leaving in consultation with. With the licensed therapist. That's the best advice I can give. And ultimately, don't allow yourself to feel so trapped that you become hopeless and feel helpless. Because that's when the suicidal ideation really starts to creep in, when you feel like there's no hope and you're trapped and you have no options.

John Dehlin [02:11:08] So you're never trapped. You can just look at these two awesome dudes right here and know that there's happiness and health after a difficult mission.

Mitch Hadfield [02:11:17] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:11:18] In fact, Chris, in your case, the only time you've experienced severe anxiety and depression was on your mission. Yeah, mostly. Yeah, mostly. Okay.

Chris Lee [02:11:27] There's one more little flare up, but it was not nearly as bad as

John Dehlin [02:11:30] the mission, but yeah, okay. But I mean, it gets better.

Chris Lee [02:11:34] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:34] And it's not the end of the world. It'll feel like the end of the world, but it doesn't need to be the end of the world. Although every person, situation, situation is going to be different. So that's my little monologue at the end. You guys okay with that?

Mitch Hadfield [02:11:45] It's great.

John Dehlin [02:11:45] Anything you want to add?

Chris Lee [02:11:47] No, maybe just. I love it.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:50] That's right. You too.

John Dehlin [02:11:51] All right, well, Marty, thanks for joining us. Thanks for being my co pilot for this episode. It's always great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:59] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [02:11:59] You're awesome. And Chris and Mitch, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We'll see you back for part two. How does that sound?

Mitch Hadfield [02:12:07] Sounds wonderful.

Chris Lee [02:12:07] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:12:08] Thanks, everyone. Thanks for joining us on this part. Come back for part two. Please know that we need your support to keep this programming alive. So if you want to support us, go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. Follow us on all the social medias like us, subscribe to us, follow us, spread the word. But most importantly, be kind to each other, be good to each other, and let's find a way to heal and grow wherever we are in this big, beautiful Mormon and post Mormon world. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you again soon. And we'll see you right back for part two of this episode. Take care.

Part Two Begins: Post-Mission Life and Deep Dive into Church History

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1675

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. We are here with my amazing co host Margi Dehlin. Hey Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:10] Hey everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Thanks for joining us. It's always great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:14] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] We are here right in the middle of a two part episode with Chris and Mitch. We are basically, you know, if you haven't heard part one of our interview with Chris and Mitch, it was really valuable. They basically talked about their respective Mormon upbringings being raised outside of Utah, Chris in California and Mitch in Virginia, but how they eventually went to college in Utah, Chris to Snow College in Ephraim, and Mitch to byu Idaho in Rexburg, Idaho. And eventually how they went and served missions.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Chris in. In. Wait, don't tell me. Chris in Boston, Massachusetts and Mitch in Ukraine. And the focus of part one was their stories, but also on how difficult missions can be. And you know, Chris shared about an early return from his mission after serving two months and how depressed and anxious he got.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] And Mitch completed his two year mission, but talked about suicidal ideation due to, you know, purity culture, kind of pressure and guilt and shame. So it was a really important interview. It's worth watching. Go back and watch if you can. It'll give you context for today for this next part. But in part two, now we're going to be covering their kind of post mission life, but with an emphasis on them as brothers in law. And so, you know, obviously Chris is going to talk about a little bit of his post mission life, getting married and his faith journey where he starts to question or have doubts about the church.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] And then that's going to dovetail into Mitch's story where at some point he's got Chris as a brother in law and who's maybe gone through some of his faith journey and then Mitch has his own faith journey and how they found out about each other, how they communicated with each other, how they supported each other, and then how they have dealt with extending believing family and their own spouses. And that's kind of what this part two is going to be about. So how does that sound, Chris? Should we just dive into.

Chris Lee [00:02:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] To you know, what aspects of your post mission life sort of weave with your, with your faith journey.

Chris Lee [00:02:50] Yeah, so. So I went back to Snow, had actually a great year and finished that out and I transferred to usu. There's actually a little bit of a blip where I went to BYU for like a month and it was just not a good, a good fit and the anxiety and Depression flared a little bit again, and so I dropped out. It was like the last day I could. I was like, I should probably get out here now before it ruins my gpa.

Chris Lee [00:03:22] So I kind of wondered, is this something that I'm going to have to deal with anytime, like, something new comes up and am I going to run from it, like, every single time? And so it actually was kind of.

Chris Lee [00:03:36] It just made me worried. Can I get married? Like, how am I going to deal with this? But let's. Let's keep escaping from our. From our anxiety and depression, and while not knowing if it's a solution or if I'm just escaping it, and let's keep going. So I transferred to usu, and kind of the quick version of all this is I was majoring in history, was taking English history classes, and had amazing roommates, still friends with all of them. Now, this would have been in about 04.05, when I was at USU for my junior and senior years, and I was extremely active in the student wards.

Chris Lee [00:04:23] I was Sunday school teacher. I loved it. I remember even at one point, it was like, I think it was a summer, and I said I was teaching a lesson, and I'm like, I think we have ice cream left over from an activity. Should we go grab the ice cream and just go outside? You know? And I remember, like, everyone's like, yeah, and then everyone leaves. And it's like, the one high counselor is just kind of like, I'm like, we're probably gonna do it anyway. So we did, and it was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] Maybe you had gained a little bit of independence, spiritual independence, after your mission.

Chris Lee [00:04:56] Yeah. And I guess kind of continuing that theme. Right. And this was mostly, I think, unconscious, and I didn't realize how unhealthy this was at the time, but it was kind of project overcompensate, or at the time, I probably would have viewed it as project reached the level of spirituality that you should be at, because you didn't go on. You didn't complete your mission. So. So I'm on that. That plan. And I was getting up really early, and I'm, you know, I'm taking a full load of credits. I'm gonna get up early. I'm going to study the scriptures. I'm gonna. I. You know, this is like. I'm diving into, like, deep nibbly stuff and temple stuff, and it's just all kinds of, you know, the deeper fun doctrines, you know. McConkey, what was it? The second comforter.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Ooh. What's the first stuff? Really Second anointing.

Chris Lee [00:05:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, this is all from Joseph Smith. This is all from McConkey. This is awesome.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] So basically learning about how you can become so righteous that you can see Jesus in your lifetime and get what's called the second comforter. The second witness.

Chris Lee [00:06:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] You know for surety that Jesus lives because he.

Chris Lee [00:06:09] And that's a fun hang out with you right at the time. And it's. This is, you know, separate from the ordinance, that maybe this will come up later. But. And it was like, this is the purest form. I'm reading Joseph Fielding Smith and doctrines of salvation. And yeah, I'm skipping some of the weird stuff that I don't think aged well, but there's a lot of good stuff in here and Mormonism has all the answers. And it was great. It was sort of like the. The renaissance of my testimony.

Chris Lee [00:06:34] And I thought maybe I can rebuild the damage I did on the mission. I can earn this, you know, temple attendance. For a while. I was going once a week to the temple and I was walking there and I would see people and like, you're the guy that walks to the temple all the time and.

Chris Lee [00:06:48] And I was doing all those things and I was going on dates and I thought, it looks like I can maybe get through this, you know, and there are these things that would happen every once in a while that would pull you back. Right. And I remember there was a time I was meeting with some girls I knew in my ward in their apartment, and I don't know how this came up, but they were talking about, could you marry someone who didn't return from their mission? Like, didn't complete their mission, and they didn't know. It's not like I went around broadcasting this. And it was like they were genuinely trying to work through this in their mind.

Chris Lee [00:07:17] Like, it was a tough decision. And they were like, I don't know, maybe, like, I don't think I could. And I'm just like, they don't know. Don't say anything, it's fine. But it reminded you, you know, it hurts. And you have to deal with that. That, like, okay, you're trying, but deep down you know that like, you screw this up and you're always going to be defined by this thing that you were supposed to do that you didn't do. And of course it doesn't help that you are in this culture. Like, Mitch, you mentioned this. Like, like, stand up. If you've experienced this. And that was always the thing, like, stand up, you Went on a mission, and I'm like, do I stand up or not?

Chris Lee [00:07:52] Because if I do, then I'm like, starting this lie, this web of deceit for, like, all these relationships about to make in my ward. But if I sit there, then I close everything off. So, like, it just depended. Sometimes I'd be like, all right, I'll just sort of stand up at this point.

Chris Lee [00:08:08] I think sometimes I felt like I was shut out of certain callings with certain bishops. Most of my bishops are actually really awesome about all of us. But, you know, I didn't really talk about it, but things would come up that would remind me, you're still not to this point. Right. Maybe there's hope, maybe not. And so. But for the most part, I had a really good experience at USU as an undergrad, finishing my degree.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] I have to just say that there's this dynamic in, let's just say, high demand religions and maybe Mormonism sometimes, where if you follow the formula and it works well, then the church gets all the credit and you have maybe a good experience, and so you remain super faithful. And if you don't follow the formula or you follow the formula and it doesn't work out for you, it's your fault. And then you're even committed more so because you have to hustle for worthiness. You have to atone, in your case, for early mission return. Yeah. And either way, you're hustling for the church. Either way, the church, the house wins. There's this idea of house always wins. Like, if you have a good experience, you're more committed to the church. And if you bad. If you have a bad experience, you're even more committed to the church. And the church kind of wins either way.

Chris Lee [00:09:24] Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's like a flowchart. Like, there's no path that leads to. Like, maybe it's not true. Maybe it's the church that's not on there.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] Maybe the church is the problem.

Chris Lee [00:09:31] It's not on that flowchart. And, and just to be clear, like, I was absolutely genuine about all of this. You know, I wasn't like, suffering through endowment ceremonies. Like, okay, I got to do what I got to do to, like, get to back to where I need to be. I. I enjoyed all this. I was in.

Chris Lee [00:09:47] I mean, the. My motivation, I think, was. Was genuine. I had really good roommates. You know, we. We would like, oh, one of my roommates would be eldersborne president, and we would just have a really good time. And I think I also Thought that I walked a really interesting line where, you know, there was actually one point we lived in a house. There was seven of us crammed in this house kind of by the D event Center. This is right across the street in usu. And our bishop is like, can we have you guys, like, host some sort of, like, parties? Are, like, unofficial from the church, but because we can't, like, officially fund it or anything, and we don't want to. But people seem to be comfortable with you guys because you're. You're active, but you're not tight wads about it.

Mitch Hadfield [00:10:31] Right.

Chris Lee [00:10:31] Like, you have a sense of humor. Like, I gotten it back. And, you know, like, you're fun. And, you know, we all kind of had. We all were, like, really good friends, and we found this house together. And I liked that sort of space where I was all in. I believed, you know, I was doing all these things to try to compete or to make up to the deficit of the mission experience. And it was just a amazing time. I loved college. I loved it and still have friends.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] Freaking Aggies. Go Aggies. Right?

Chris Lee [00:11:02] And this was like, J.C. carroll basketball.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] Yeah, I was there.

Chris Lee [00:11:05] I was there. I know some stuff.

John Dehlin [00:11:07] So Martin and I were there from 2004.

Chris Lee [00:11:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] To 2017.

Chris Lee [00:11:11] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] So those are great.

Chris Lee [00:11:12] Years overlapped. And it was the time where we were. This. This was like, to be an Aggie at the time where you go to the basketball games and then you go to Institute and get chewed out for just being mercilessly ruthless to the opposing team, there's nothing like.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] I mean, it's probably worse basketball fans out there in the United States, but Aggie basketball fans bring it. Right?

Chris Lee [00:11:38] Yeah. And you're proud of it. Like, you be in the student. You're like, come on. Like, we love that we do this. I mean, there was a time when someone had done, like, research on an opposing player who had been in jail at one point, and every time he touched the ball, the entire crowd would just start yelling like, jailbird or something like that. You remember that you were there. We shared that moment. That's fun. And you get into it.

Mitch Hadfield [00:11:59] Right?

Chris Lee [00:11:59] And so it was a great time.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] They, like, when. When the opposing team's, like, shooting a free throw or something, they all turn their backs on the.

Chris Lee [00:12:05] Yeah, right. It was bad.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] What's the student section called? What were.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:09] There were times when that was so uncomfortable to be in that crowd.

Chris Lee [00:12:13] You're like, oh, this is too far from now.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:16] Wow. This is next level.

Chris Lee [00:12:17] Like, maybe let's not, like, pick on someone's like dying, mom. Like, maybe let's back off of that.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] But what did they do when the game was ending and it was pretty much decided that they were winning? Do you remember?

Chris Lee [00:12:30] No. Did we do something crazy?

John Dehlin [00:12:32] Okay. I don't know if they sing Na Na Na Na Goodbye or. I don't know.

Chris Lee [00:12:36] Yeah, probably. And I remember there was actually a time where we. My roommate, I got called out to do the halftime show and we had little tricycles and we were racing. It was like $50 for whoever won. And I think I won. It's like this little tiny thing. Anyway, I totally forgot about that. But we don't need to talk about football. Let's not talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] That was basketball. Oh, football.

Chris Lee [00:12:53] It was bad time for Aggie.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:54] Football.

Chris Lee [00:12:54] Yeah, yeah. It was like one game. They won. It was like a field goal. Anyway, so I loved it. I loved usu. So it was a really good place for me to have active LDS friends and going on dates with all these people, but not to the point where it was, I don't know, cliche kind of the BYU kind of thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:19] Right.

Chris Lee [00:13:19] And I took kind of proud, I took pride in that. And we're doing Mormonism like our cool way. And I'd have conversations with roommates three in the morning about just like, you know, deep LDS theology. And it was just a self growth and learning and it was, I still, you know, I still enjoy it. I don't look back on that. And I'm like, man, what a waste. I should have been snorting coke off of strippers while I was in college.

Chris Lee [00:13:46] So I still really loved the time that I had there. And so I, I'll sort of move to. And that, that sort of continued. You know, I was super active in the church. I had amazing bishops that I still keep in contact with that I feel are mentors.

Chris Lee [00:14:04] And so I graduate and I, because of the mission, I was two years ahead of everybody. And so I graduate alone and then I decide, well, what am I going to do? I'm not married, so I should probably stay and I'll go to grad school. So I, so I decided to do an English master's in American studies. It was an English degree and maybe I'll try to teach as well because it seems kind of fun and grad students teach these intro classes. And so I transitioned into grad school and I'm still living with my undergrad roommates and I'm loving graduate school. It's kicking the crap out of me.

Chris Lee [00:14:38] Initially still at usu, what's that still at usu? Yeah, yeah. So stayed at USU and I was like, oh, yeah, this is hard. I thought I was good at school, but so it took a little bit of time to get used to it. And so this would have been probably 2007. And I was thinking about what am I going to do for my thesis? And I had written a paper about excommunication in the church and something about spiritual violence. And I was really interested in it and all my instructors were thinking, hey, I don't know if anyone's really done this in the way you're talking about it, so maybe do an interdisciplinary thing where you're looking up historical records and you're kind of tracing this, this procedure, I guess, whatever you want to call it.

Chris Lee [00:15:30] And so I started doing research in the special collections at USU Library. So I'm in the basement, I have these gloves on, I'm like looking through these old documents and I started looking through disciplinary council like minutes. Right. And I can't remember kind of what the limits are, but if it's a certain point back, you know, you can't access these things, but at some point they're like public access. I can't remember like the.

Chris Lee [00:15:59] Is it public domain? I don't know what the law that applies there. But so I'm reading these disciplinary councils, like hearings, I guess, and just down there by myself, like this is, I'm like a historian out here looking at this cool stuff and I'm. I'm just seeing things I've never seen before. Right. And so can I just say there's

Discovering Uncomfortable Mormon History

John Dehlin [00:16:19] a huge cool story about Mormon historian Leonard Arrington. Were you about to tell that?

Chris Lee [00:16:25] No.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] Who, who was church historian, called the first kind of academic qualified historic historian to serve as church historian, who served from 72 to 82. Nowadays the church only calls lawyers as church historians. But he was actually a credible, well respected historian. You know, he was obviously that administration was shut down. The church closed it down because the truthful history in the 70s and 80s.

Chris Lee [00:16:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:52] Was making Boyd K. Packer and and others really uncomfortable. When Leonard Arrington was getting old and was ready to die, he needed a place to give his records and the church wanted his records because he knew where a lot of the bodies were buried, so to speak. And there was a tussle between the Mormon Church and Utah State University about who would get Leonard Arrington's records.

Chris Lee [00:17:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] And ultimately there was some negotiation and the church got a few things, but ultimately Leonard Arrington's records got to Go to Utah State in the Leonard Arrington, I don't know, Special Collections or whatever it's called. So it's really a cool archive for that and for many other reasons.

Chris Lee [00:17:36] I haven't read Prince's book. Was he using.

John Dehlin [00:17:39] He primarily used a diary of David O. McKay's secretary, but I'm sure he spent a lot of time in the USU archives as well, because he did do.

Chris Lee [00:17:50] He did the, the Arrington biography too.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] Yeah, he did both the David O. McKay biography and a Leonard Arrington biography. He was at USU a lot.

Chris Lee [00:17:57] You mentioned Arrington. You know, I was in a class where we read Great Basin Kingdom, which was a great book. And it was. Here's.

John Dehlin [00:18:04] That was his breakout book.

Chris Lee [00:18:05] Yeah, here's how historians do their thing. Like, let's read it and then you go do your thing. So I was like loving being down there looking at all these documents. And then I read one and someone had been excommunicated for apostasy was probably the reason. But it went further and it mentioned Adam, God. And I was like, what? What is that? So I keep reading and I'm like fascinated by this. And, you know, Brigham Young comes up and it's my first introduction to that term and it interests me, so it interested me. So, you know, there wasn't much I was able to get out of the, the document, but I just start researching and again, this is, oh, about 07, maybe 08.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] And tell our listeners what Adam got just in.

Chris Lee [00:18:52] Yeah, yeah, Brigham Young had taught, and you guys help me out too. You're gonna know more than me, probably, but that Adam was God. Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] And so Adam from Adam and Eve.

Chris Lee [00:19:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Was God the Father, right. And Jesus's dad, basically.

Chris Lee [00:19:10] And I thought, oh. And you know, at the time I had thought, that's weird, I've never heard of that. But it's not, you know, it's not some big punch in the face like, okay, Brigham Young said some stuff and you know, I kind of look more into it. And at the time I was okay with, you know, let's see what the church says about this. And it was pretty clear cut. This is something that was wrong. Bren kind of mentioned it, but I'm paraphrasing. But you know, he was, he opined, he was a man, like, it's fine. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. And it just interested me.

Chris Lee [00:19:42] And so I started learning things throughout the history. Now, at the time, did I follow up enough to realize this was part of the St. George Temple ceremony? If I'm correct on that. And this is, like, part of the. Part of what was going on in the veil.

Chris Lee [00:20:00] It wasn't just, oh, he had a thought once. It just escaped when he was giving a talk one time, right? But at the time, that was, like, enough for me to be like, oh, cool, I'll get past it. Right?

Chris Lee [00:20:13] And more of that stuff kind of kept popping up where it would be someone who was excommunicated for apostasy, for espousing some kind of theory or some kind of doctrine. And that's the one that sticks out to me the most. There are probably some other ones, but what it did is it started to light a fire of. I like this. This is fun.

Chris Lee [00:20:35] And I think it. I wonder actually if it connected. I've never thought about this now, but if somehow finding exclusive, secretive, you know, cool, cobwebby Mormon doctrine in the special collections with my little gloves on by myself, maybe fed that Mormon overcompensation thing from the mission.

Chris Lee [00:20:59] It's fun to psychoanalyze myself, like, live here. But it. It did the opposite of what it does to a lot of people where they have these shelf breaks and it's loaded up and it collapses with all the weight. I loved it, and I ate it up, and I look for more of it. In fact, I remember there was a time I was checking out a bunch of books from the library to do this research, and it was like, is it Mormonism Unveiled? Is that Ed Howe? Is that the name? I'm trying remember a bunch of books. There was Hurlbut. You know, the one that collected all the affidavits.

Chris Lee [00:21:36] I mean, all this stuff, and I'm like, just. I dump it on the checkout, you know, area. And it's someone that I, like, go to church with in my ward, and I'm, like, teaching Sunday school, and they're like, boop, you know, checking all the books out, and they're, like, kind of looking at me. Is everything cool? I'm like, yeah, because they see all these books, you know, you know, Brody's in there and all this, and I'm, like, really excited about it. And so I started reading a lot of.

Chris Lee [00:22:03] A lot of these histories, things from, like, Discourses. I didn't dive too deep there. And it just fed this. I don't know, maybe this sort of sense of narcissism. Like, I know more than other people, and this will. Yeah, like, this will get me to where I need to be. So I was fascinated, and I didn't find it really threatening at all, you know, maybe subconsciously I was like, suppressing things, but. And it was still fairly safe where I was. You know, I was not really going outside to critical things necessarily.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] I. Not to psychoanalyze you, but I can relate to.

Chris Lee [00:22:38] Please.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] Because if you. I had. I had a really bad mission experience, too, and I got sent home early and got reassigned, and it was very traumatic for me, and I was never the same after that. But once you learn about the. Where the bodies are buried and you learn about the dark, seedy things in church history, not only do you feel like you kind of know more than the average member, so it's almost a way of kind of one upping yourself relative to the, quote, righteous or faithful members. It. You know, it's almost a way of compensating for your feelings of inadequacy, you know, and to feel like you got something on them. And maybe it's a way to normalize. Well, if you had mistakes or if you had problems. Well, sort of. Brigham Young. So did, you know, so did the others. And so. I don't know. I. I felt those things.

Chris Lee [00:23:27] Yeah, you're exactly right. And. And I like that you added that last part, because it actually made problems, like imperfect people in the scriptures more three dimensional. I was like, oh, I actually like this. So, like, my favorite part of Nephi is when he has. When he's like, the. The psalm, right? Like the. I think that's the way we refer to it because it's kind. He. He's sort of normal now. True. Like, the stuff that he's, you know, psalming about. I'm like, oh, okay, I guess I'm worse than you. But it made it kind of more real.

Chris Lee [00:23:58] And I even remember, like, at one point interpreting Nephi, beheading Laban. That came up in conference, I think, just recently. I think Renlund talked about it. But I thought, wait, no, look, if you read it closely, you know. You know, I studied literature and history, and so I love, like, analyzing Scriptures on. In that way.

Chris Lee [00:24:19] He doesn't want to do it, right? He's like, I don't want to. And he's like. But I. He. He, like, gives a justification God. It's like utilitarian philosophy. Like, I need you to do it because of this. And he's like, okay. And he pushes back. And so it made it real, right? These are real people, right? So it. It fed this sort of intellectual blossoming of Mormon studies, right? And.

Chris Lee [00:24:40] And I felt like I was getting, like, the pure stuff from the historical record and so that led me to Bushman, Rough stone rolling. And my dad actually recommended that book. He's like, you, I think, are gonna like this. And he's like, there's some stuff in here that bothers people. And so he, he sort of fed that like, like wink, wink. Like you're in this club when you read this stuff. And keep in mind. So this is.

Chris Lee [00:25:10] There was nothing about Joseph Smith's Pulumi in my experience. I didn't hear a word about it growing up. This was not. And maybe this is just my experience, but all through my undergrad, halfway through my graduate degree, this just did not come up. And so it was an introduction to me, to, to Joseph Smith, polygamy and all the, all the other stuff. I mean, Bushman talks about kinderhook plates and

John Dehlin [00:25:38] treasure digging stuff.

Chris Lee [00:25:39] Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot in there and a great book. I mean, I should reread it. It's, it's. I think it's, it's a good histor historical record of all that. But it's just enough to, to fit what I needed at the time. Right.

Chris Lee [00:25:54] Where he. I don't, I want to do him credit. I don't want to say that he's given him a pass a little bit, but I think there definitely is a, a little more of a faith promoting sort of spin on a lot of it. Right. Especially, you know, he, he highlights more, if I remember right, the ceiling stuff. It's more about ceiling and connecting families and like, there might have been a little confusion initially. Right. And that's how you can kind of get over a lot of the, the trouble.

Chris Lee [00:26:20] And so I don't know if I'd call it a work of apologetics. I'm not sure if that's an accurate label, but it worked for me because it was just enough at this spot where it's getting into some of the stuff that no one knows. But like, it's still cool, it's still fine, it's still true.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] So faithful.

Chris Lee [00:26:34] Yeah. And so I loved that book. And that made me, I think, confident to be looking at other things that might have been troubling. And so I was actually at my. I guess he was my fiancee at the time. I was watching. It was like Craig Ferguson or the guy, the talk show host, and he had like Bill Maher on. And they were talking about DNA, right. And they bring up Mormonism. I'm like, what are they even talking about? I was like, but, oh, I'm, I'm into this. Space where I'm learning everything and I love it. And. But it was, I think, the first time I felt like, oh, no, that's not good.

Chris Lee [00:27:12] Like, they're saying that you can, like, prove this is not historical because of DNA. And I had enough kind of experience with reading all this in Faith that I'm like, well, yeah, they're minimizing it. It's. It's more complex than that. And so, um, so I just start looking into that. And I even went through like a Heartlander phase where I'm like, watching Meldrum's, like, DVDs. I actually went to one of his things and Logan and was like, this is tricky year.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] Was this.

Chris Lee [00:27:43] This, like, oh, eight.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] Wow.

Chris Lee [00:27:44] Yeah. And I thought he. Some of this is pretty wonky to me. But. But what he has going for him is he doesn't have to dismiss Joseph Smith. Right. And BYU and the Farms folks. It was the Maxwell Institute maybe at the time. They kind of do that. And so I'm like, I see where it's coming from, but I'm not totally on board, but I want to just increase my knowledge and that's something to consider. Right. And so I just started reading a lot of these things that I didn't know about. And it helped. It led to this again, the sense of superiority, I think, and elitism.

Mitch Hadfield [00:28:23] Right.

Chris Lee [00:28:25] So initially my. My delving into the. These things that are really complex and troublesome for people weren't for me. They helped. They helped actually feed my faith, which is. That's. That's probably not super unique. Right?

John Dehlin [00:28:42] Just depends. But that's, you know, Patrick Mason, we just had him on Mormon stories and he.

Chris Lee [00:28:47] And I love that he loved it.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] You know, he loved that stuff.

Chris Lee [00:28:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] And you do have these apologists say, everything I've read is just only strengthened my faith. Just depends. I think it just depends on the person.

Chris Lee [00:28:59] Yeah. So it helped and it just made me read more. So I, you know, I read a compilation of essays from the Maxwell Institute about the DNA issue. And it was perfect for me at the time because it use things terms I didn't get. And it was like, these are all geneticists at byu. These are biologists, you know, and they say, you know, you. There's no way to really study this. And I don't remember the arguments exactly, but it was just, oh, I'm good. Right. So. So anything that did pop up fair and Farms, or whatever they were called would. Would placate me and think, okay, I'm good there.

Chris Lee [00:29:37] There's. There are these Responses. And so. So that's sort of like the phase I was at there in college about when I was going to graduate from. From USU with my master's was apologetics. I know all the stuff, you know, I read Givens is by the Hand of Mormon and, you know, all the things.

Chris Lee [00:29:58] So that's sort of where I was at that point. I don't know if I want to kick it over to Mitch now with your stuff.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] No, let's keep going. So. So what year did you graduate from USU?

Chris Lee [00:30:07] This was.08 away. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] All right, let's take it to the point. When did your. What did your faith kind of start unraveling, Mitch? Estimate?

Mitch Hadfield [00:30:19] Maybe like, two years ago, year and a half ago.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] So 20?

Mitch Hadfield [00:30:23] Yeah. So kind of.

Mitch Meets His Wife and Early Cracks in Faith

Chris Lee [00:30:25] All right, all right, Let me catch up.

Mitch Hadfield [00:30:26] That's right.

Chris Lee [00:30:26] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] Just take us. Take us through your marriage and stuff, your faith journey.

Chris Lee [00:30:30] That's important. Yeah. So I. So I meet my wife.

Mitch Hadfield [00:30:34] What was your job at the time?

Chris Lee [00:30:36] You know? Yeah. So I was a grad instructor, and she may have been a student in a class, maybe. And so we met possibly through that way. May have started dating after the semester was over and after grades were posted.

Chris Lee [00:30:56] So it's actually a good courtship story, but different time. So we start dating, we get engaged, and I know full well, like, wait, there's something I need to tell you. So we're maybe two weeks in, maybe three weeks in, and I know this isn't serious yet, but there's something I have to tell you. And she's like, okay. And I was really serious about it, and I had learned to, like, hype stuff up. And then when you tell them, oh, that's not too bad. Right. And so I needed to tell her about my mission experience because, you know, it's. You have a right to know if you want to cut this off because of that.

Chris Lee [00:31:31] Because I know that you promised yourself when you were 12 that you needed to remarry. All the stuff, all the boxes. Right. I don't check that box. And so I told her, and, you know, she's like, why would you think I care about that? And I'm like, I don't. But I'm just checking because this can be a problem. And I said, and if this goes somewhere your parents, you know, might want to know. And she's like, why would they have any say in this? She's like, they're not from Utah. Don't worry about that. Like, that was her response. Right. She's from Seattle.

Chris Lee [00:32:02] So I meet I meet my wife. We are engaged. I think like a year total. We're dating and engaged, and then we get married. So this is about. Oh, this is 08. And she's finishing up some of her stuff at USU, so we can transfer.

Chris Lee [00:32:19] And I guess, like, if we're looking at kind of phases, you know, I was in this very good space of I know the issues. I mean, did I really, on a deep level, like, know. Did I. Did I ever read responses to apologetics? No. Did I ever assume that there were good reasons that counter apologetics? No. Did I know even 10% of the issues that I know now? No. Right. But it was a good space to be. And I had other experiences. Like, one day we were living in Sugar House, and Elder Oak shows up to our ward. And he.

Chris Lee [00:32:58] It was early, and for some reason, that war, like, no one came on time. So when it started at Nine Oaks is up on the stand, and there's like, 10 people there. And he's like, I'm here just to. I'm not here on assignment. Like, I might get up for, like, two minutes at the end, but just, like, do your thing. Because I was speaking. Liz and I were speaking that day about marriage. And so I remember even, like, I remember I had a joke in my thing that was.

Chris Lee [00:33:24] It's dumb, but it was something like Liz's grandpa says, like, everything, everything is shared in a marriage. And I took that to heart. And it's a good thing I like wearing women's underwear. Like, it was just something like that. That was a little edgy for my war, but I was just gonna test the waters. But Oakes is behind me, so I'm like, I'm gonna do it. Let's just see what happens. So I do it. And he's, like, laughing hysterically. I mean, I look back and he's like. I'm like, oh. Oh. I didn't think that he was like that, you know, he shows up in our primary class and sits in at one point, and he pulls me aside after I talk, and he's like, hey.

Chris Lee [00:34:01] I was like, okay, here it comes. He's going to do it privately. He's going to chastise me. And he says, I. You said something about the brother of Jared, and you had a really interesting take on that, on, like, why someone wouldn't pray for, like, three years. I'm probably getting this wrong, but it was some detail like that that I had an interpretation on. And he's like, I never. I never really thought about, like, that here's what I think. Maybe it's going on. I was like, oh, Like, I thought you guys know everything.

Chris Lee [00:34:26] I thought, you know, like, Jesus just told you. Like, I don't think I was that, like, naive about it or whatever, but that. That was significant. This was one of the last times I actually wrote in my journal. I was like, oh, this fun thing happened. And these. They're people, right? Like, they're people like us. And so I think I intellectually knew that, but it wasn't really confirmed until I had that experience.

Chris Lee [00:34:48] So I had little. Little instances like that that would come up. So I'm looking for work. I'm trying to find teaching jobs, which is difficult without a PhD. And I ended up getting a job at Westminster and uvu.

Chris Lee [00:35:02] So we moved to Salt Lake. My wife transfers to the U. And I want to say for that I can help. I can speed this up, because that's where I was probably until 2013. Just. Things were great. We had a good job. We. We had our first kid, first daughter. And, yeah, I was enjoying church and making friends and all that. So I think the next biggest shift was more of social things.

Chris Lee [00:35:36] So it was initially historical. And I didn't really have issues because I was reading stuff that. That worked for me, that. That explained things, right? And even things that didn't have answers, I was okay to like, yeah, well, maybe that doesn't matter, or whatever.

Chris Lee [00:35:50] And so I remember the Kit Kelly stuff. So ordained. Ordained women, for those of you who knows a movement of ordaining women to the priesthood, which is not currently a practice and hasn't been. And I just started thinking more about these things, probably because I'm married now, and I see, like, I'm living kind of your experience with you now. And there were these things that would kind of bother me, like, you know, you'd have a new bishopric come over and meet you. And they'd be like, so, what do you do? You know? And I'm like, oh, I teach and I do this. And they're like, cool.

Chris Lee [00:36:31] I'd be like, are you gonna ask my wife what she does? Because she teaches, you know, And I would, like, say stuff like this because it kind of bugged me. And I just started noticing, like, man, maybe I've been blind to things as a man.

Chris Lee [00:36:47] Maybe I should think more about this. And so I just tried to read more about Kate Kelly and not just her, but, you know, the arguments that they were making. And I'm like, they're actually making decent historical arguments that seem to be within, like, doctrinal precedence to make this case.

Chris Lee [00:37:03] And I'm talking to Liz about it a little bit. And this is also about when the Gospel topics essays come out. And I had heard a little bit about Abraham. I can't remember if Bushman talks about it or not, but probably does a little bit. So maybe I've been introduced to it somewhat. But I remember, like, watering my lawn one time and just hearing, like, a Radio west or something with Doug Fabrizio about this. This essay that just drops, right. And it might not have been. That was. That probably wasn't the first one that came out, but. And just thinking, like, whoa, this is really cool. Revelation is cooler than we thought. Like, that's kind of how I, like, dealt with it.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] That was the Book of Abraham essay.

Chris Lee [00:37:46] Yeah, yeah, that, like, maybe. And you know what? Now I'm cycling myself again in the moment. I think, like, took this incomprehensible, divine thing that was inaccessible to someone like me because I didn't go on a mission and all the other things, and it made it accessible. So it wasn't what we thought it was. You know, it's much more expansive and, you know, like, radical and whatever. And I think my brain was, like. Had to frame it that way. Right. And so it didn't bother me. And I thought, these are cool. These essays are coming out and all this. We're getting close to you, right? 2014, about.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:31] Yep.

Chris Lee [00:38:31] And so let me. Let me get to the thing that kind of. I actually felt like, was a major crack. And then we'll go to Mitch because we start combining now. So I was. So I'm teaching at byu, so at this time, I was teaching full time at uvu, teaching part time at byu, and I absolutely loved it. I loved both for different reasons. And I was driving home from BYU and probably was listening to probably Radio west, and they were talking about the Ordain Movement. They were talking about Revelation. And it's possible that you were on there. I don't remember, but there was a few people that Fabrizio was interviewing, and, you know, he'll try to have, like, a rep from the church if they decide to ever go on there.

Chris Lee [00:39:22] And the. The thought came up, and it was something I hadn't really thought about. And. And this also applied to LGBTQ issues as well. And someone on there, again, it might have been you, I don't know, made a comment like, well, these major things that are happening, these big social issues, and this is all social. There wasn't really any history here.

Chris Lee [00:39:50] It was a question. Why is it that the LDS church just seems behind every time and when they change, it's often grassroots. Like it's, you know, it's, it's people that are complaining about it. It's like external pressure, you know.

Chris Lee [00:40:10] And I didn't know a lot about stuff with BYU and the IRS and these other things at the time, but it, it, you know, shouldn't profit sees and revelators, like, should it be reversed? Like, why are they following the average members on this?

Chris Lee [00:40:26] And it gave me pause and I think almost gave me like a panic attack because I hadn't ever thought about it like that because I had never put more than one thing together. This is something you guys talk about a lot on one of the stories is apologetics is amazing when you keep on like those goggles that like isolate issues, right.

Chris Lee [00:40:52] When you start putting things together, it becomes an issue. And so the first kind of big catalyst for me there's a problem and I need to think more about this was that idea of revelation isn't working the way that I, that it's supposed to work. And well, maybe I'm not understanding it right. Like, so I immediately started kind of blaming myself and but I could not suppress that, that feeling of like, you, you actually have to think about this.

Chris Lee [00:41:23] And I didn't talk to my wife about it at the time because I was terrified. I'm like, this is actually a real significant problem and I don't know what to do about this. So let's read some givens. Let's read Scrutable of Doubt, like, and that's what I would do, which was helpful. But it did not. Nothing seemed to address that problem.

Chris Lee [00:41:44] So that was 2000, probably 2014. And that was the first kind of major thing that started the journey of other major things that compounded that really bothered me that it hurt. I mean it was like physical, like, no, this is Satan. Like all the things that you're supposed to like thought stop, right. I did all the things. But it was a long. And it was from BYU to Saratoga Springs. It was like a 40 minute drive. Very long. Like, what do I do with this? So that was where I was when. When you came in. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] And just really quickly, for those who are brand new to all this, 2014 was the year that Kate Kelly and I, within a week of each other, both received.

Chris Lee [00:42:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:32] Notifications of our disciplinary council in mid-2014. Kate was excommunicated, I believe by the summer of 2014. And my excommunication was delayed until winter of 2015, I recorded my exchanges with my bishop and stake president and I've shared those on Mormon stories. People really value to hear those exchanges. So I'm just going to put a plug for that because it's, I think, one of the most important things I've ever shared on Mormon stories. Margi's nodding. And Margi makes a cameo in those discussions with. With Brian King.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:07] Imagine.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Anyway, so 2004, 2014 and 15 were kind of big years.

Chris Lee [00:43:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] Kind of watershed moments. Not because of me and Kate. It was like the culmination of the Internet, the gospel topics, essays, blogs, podcasts.

Chris Lee [00:43:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:24] Activism and 2015, 14. They were watershed years. Yeah.

Chris Lee [00:43:28] I didn't, I didn't. I knew who you were and I knew that you had this podcast. And I. It was not like, watch out for him or his stuff's amazing. Wasn't it just. I knew that that was a thing that existed, the podcast.

Chris Lee [00:43:41] So I wasn't listening to Mormon stories. I wasn't. That's just a common thing. Like, oh, you started this thing and that led to. Nah, I didn't. I think the first full episode I ever listened to was probably two years ago.

Chris Lee [00:43:53] So that really wasn't on my radar at the time. I do remember real quick reading the priesthood ban essay, thinking like, yes, progress. This is good. I mean, they're owning things. But there were things in there, even in the space I was where I wanted, like, please help solve my problems. Essays and other materials. I was reading it, I just thought, how, like, how does God let this happen for like 130 years? Like, I don't. I'm not seeing that in the essay. So, okay, Brigham Young is kind of racist, man of his times. Cool. I can get behind that. Brigham Young did a lot of fun stuff.

Chris Lee [00:44:37] So. But is God complicit then? And what does that say? And so it was just kind of this, I don't know how to get out of God. At best case scenario is just lets this happen and it's real people that are being denied, like saving ordinances.

Chris Lee [00:44:54] Why there's so many prophets that like you could have, you know, and well, the world wasn't ready and all this. And I just stop accepting those reasons as readily. I think maybe, maybe that's it. But like, it just seems like I'm in this tight spot and I don't know how to.

Chris Lee [00:45:15] Well, no, the church is in a tight spot. I'm like, it's. It's not my problem. I didn't do any of this. So how do I make sense of this? And, you know, I'm in like an elders corn prince. I'm teaching Sunday school in my family ward.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] And I would imagine you would have started to be feeling redeemed. It's like, okay, I had that mission experience.

Chris Lee [00:45:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] But I've made good. I've strengthened my faith. I got married in the temple. Now I'm serving in all the callings. Bishops even think I'm cool. Bishops are even recommending I'm teaching Sunday

Chris Lee [00:45:46] school to, like, people with kids and adults.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] You're like, redeemed.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:49] You're like, did it feel that way?

Chris Lee [00:45:52] Yeah, I think, I think you're right. And I didn't think about it like that at the time, but it absolutely gave me kind of a license to like, you're okay. I mean, you didn't marry a 14 year old when you were 37. Like, you're doing okay, right?

Chris Lee [00:46:10] It did, I think it actually did help. And so that probably slowed it down. But, but these, the difference was it wasn't about me and like, my place within, you know, my level of worthiness. It was, is this true?

Chris Lee [00:46:25] And that had not happened yet, really up until this point. And I think it was moving into like, social issues and concerns and being like, well, now I have this friend who is gay. I know this person. None of this is making any sense. Like, how do I work with this? Well, we don't know everything. And I'm like, yeah, but I, I, I can't just not think about this. And so I was still very kind of guarded, you know, I, but I would make these moves where I would, maybe there's other. Because it still was very lonely, you know, like, because it's still Utah County.

Chris Lee [00:47:06] Maybe there are other people that I can talk to that maybe like, find a space. And so I, I remember teaching actually a lesson on. It was something in Nephi and it was the like, chapter where he beheads Laban. And I thought, oh, maybe I can be vulnerable and just say, you know, no, it was just, I think it was the lesson about like likening scriptures and, you know, how can we be like Jesus and figures in the scriptures? So I decided to use that example as a. This is real. Like, he is real right here. And I can relate to that. It's not that I relate to beheading someone while they're drunk and passed out, but I can relate to, this is messy and I don't think he loves this.

Chris Lee [00:47:48] And he's real. And I was really excited. I was prepping it And I was like, liz, I think I'm gonna, like, be open about this. And. And then I do. And then the first comment, like, you know, I don't blame the guy, but he's probably like in his 80s. And he was like, yeah. So I just try to be like the savior and just like, it was like an immediate, like, no, invalidating. Yep. And I just was like, I completely shut down. I was like, okay, well, what else do you guys think? And I was like, I'm done talking. I walked home.

Chris Lee [00:48:20] Yes. I got offended. Sorry, Bednar. My fault. I walked home. I was like, okay. And I learned a lesson, like, don't do that. I learned later, actually a couple months later, that there's a high councilman who's about my age, and we kind of became friends a little bit. And he's like, yeah, you were almost released, but I went to bat for you because I'm like, there are people like him, these fringy, like, liberal Mormons, right? Who. And I'm in academia, so, like, you get that label, right, that, that he reaches. He reaches people that. And maybe it's only two people, but like, we have the seminary, you know, teacher.

Chris Lee [00:48:56] We have all these other teachers that get everybody else. So he kind of went to bat for me and was able to like, stay in my execution for a while, but it didn't last very long. And I knew like, okay, here are the boundaries. Here's what you can say when you're in church. Here's what you can't. And I was learning to negotiate those boundaries and try to work through stuff. Yeah, that's where I was. So enter.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:22] That's familiar, right? Yeah, sounds very familiar.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Yeah. Margi and I lost our faith in 2001, and we stayed active until 2014 for the better part of 13 to

Margi Dehlin [00:49:33] varying degrees at different times.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but yeah, we know trying to do the progressive liberal, semi believing Mormon thing quite well.

Chris Lee [00:49:42] And I would, like, fluctuate between, like, I would view this scale of. On the one end, I think the church is probably true, but it might not be. So let's see. Right. And it was like, comforting to have that ambiguity. And then the next day I'd be like, it's probably not, but it might be. Let's see what happens.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] Right.

Chris Lee [00:49:59] And so I, I was in that space for like, like, that was where I was with you for probably till about 2017, 18. And then things ramped up. So. Okay, I'm good. I'm done.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] All right. I'm like, totally all Right. Thanks, Chris. That's super good. No, that's me. That's meat and potatoes. Mormon story stuff right there. So thanks for sharing. So, Mitch, you get off your mission from Ukraine?

Marriage, Return from Mission, and Growing Doubts

Mitch Hadfield [00:50:26] Yep. So I got off my mission from Ukraine, and I went right back to BYU Idaho for a semester before I transferred to BYU and Provo. And I remember it was a really bad culture shock for me in Ukraine. People are very stoic. They take longer to open up, but they're very deep. And you make a lot of. Really, you make. You make a few really strong connections. And I remember going back to BYU Idaho and everyone smiling, which is kind of seen as weird in Ukraine, necessarily. Just like on the street, and people are saying hi, and just socially. I had a really hard time just going immediately from two years in Ukraine to right back at BYU Idaho.

Mitch Hadfield [00:51:01] I came back and had, like, a weekend, and then I started the semester. So it was a really quick kind of shock, I guess, for me. And I started. I was feeling kind of depressed at BYU Idaho. Didn't really have a lot of friends. A lot of people I knew were now gone.

Mitch Hadfield [00:51:17] Um, and. And so that was a. It was a really hard transition for me. I ended up deciding, you know, I can't stay here. Um, so, you know, I didn't really have a plan. I was like, okay, I'll go to BYU Provo. Maybe that. That'll be a better situation. I didn't exactly know what I wanted to study, but I. I decided, you know, my grandpa's a civil engineer. You know, I enjoy math and science. I could do civil engineering. They're just barely starting a program here, and. And it's pretty strong at BYU Provo. So that might make sense on a letter of why I'm transferring, why I want to get into BYU Provo.

Mitch Hadfield [00:51:52] Talked to my dad. He helped me kind of write some essays and ended up getting into BYU Provo. So I came home from my mission kind of September 2014, went to BYU Idaho for that semester, and was in BYU Provo in December of 2015.

Mitch Hadfield [00:52:08] Got a job as a janitor at the MTC, was in a singles ward. And that's when I first met my wife. We were in the same family home evening group. She came home off her mission to Spain in December 2015. So we both came to. She. She had been at byu, but now she's back. She was back at byu, and that's kind of when we met in the singles ward.

Mitch Hadfield [00:52:31] We were friends, you know, we were kind of acquaintances for a while, friends for a Summer and we ended up starting, started to date at the end of the, the summer of 2015. You know, it was, it was pretty, I guess, slower progression for, for, from some BYU stories, but not, not super slow. We started dating end of August 2015 and ended up getting engaged around January 2016. And we ended up getting married in April of 2016.

Mitch Hadfield [00:53:06] And coming back from my mission, I kind of amped up the, the spirituality in my life. I got to the point I wouldn't listen to much music other than church music, just because that was the rules on my mission. And that's kind of what I felt comfortable with on my mission.

Mitch Hadfield [00:53:23] I still exercised pretty frequently, but I would listen to conference talks or church music when I exercised, you know, I'd go on runs and listen to a talk or something like that, an old conference talk. I like to listen to, you know, ones from the 80s 90s, you know, whatever I could really listen to.

Mitch Hadfield [00:53:40] I got into church history, but from faithful sources. I would go to Pioneer Book on Center street in Provo and buy a book, you know, from a faithful Mormon author and read about a different topic in Mormon history. There was a, a series on the Joseph Smith papers, like a video series that I found that were like, you know, 15, 20, 30 minute episodes. And I was just so excited to listen to them. And I, you know, I was learning all this stuff about, about history and I thought it was great and, and my religious, I would say scrupulosity. Scrupulosity at that point kind of set in.

Mitch Hadfield [00:54:16] I kind of had like check boxes for myself. I needed to read the, you know, the scriptures at least a half hour every day. I needed to, you know, do certain things to feel good about myself, to feel like I was doing okay.

Mitch Hadfield [00:54:28] I, we were in a married ward, I guess at the time. After I got married, I'm going to BYU and, you know, I got a calling as a teacher and I was like, okay, you know, I'm doing good. I kind of connected with what, what you said earlier, Margi, about kind of the redemption from feeling kind of like a failure on my mission. I was like, hey, I'm doing, I'm doing good. I got called as a counselor in the Elders Quorum presidency. I was like, okay, this is a good trajectory. Like the Lord, you know, is happy with me. I'm, you know, everything I'm doing is kind of fueling this. And I, I end up getting, I just know.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] One quick thing. Please do, please do apologize for interrupting.

Mitch Hadfield [00:55:03] No, don't, don't.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] People don't like when I interrupt. But Chris isn't interesting that, like, you were suffering for returning home early from a mission. He served the full mission and was still tormented for his unworthiness. So you were both tormented.

Mitch Hadfield [00:55:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] Regardless, you're kind of tormented either way. You're on the. You're on the wheel of kind of like the. The. The. The wheel of hustling for love and acceptance either way, or the wheel of shame, whatever you want to call it, you're on it.

Mitch Hadfield [00:55:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:35] No matter where you are in Mormonism, you're kind of on it.

Mitch Hadfield [00:55:37] You're always on the wheel.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] You're either sinful or you're. You're obedient but feeling unworthy. Anyway. Sorry, I just wanted to. Yeah, that.

Mitch Hadfield [00:55:47] So. So I was in the Elders Quorum presidency. You got called as the president, and this was kind of an affirmation to me that he, you know, I'm on the right track now, and I'm. I'm faithful and I'm. I'm doing great. And I, you know, was the Elders Quorum president for a while, ended up getting called as in a. To a bishopric in the married ward was like, okay, like, this is going the right way. Not. Not that I was aspiring. Aspiring to callings, but I just felt like this is like the Lord saying, like, you're doing good. You're, you know, things like that.

Mitch Hadfield [00:56:16] And I think maybe it was around that time that maybe things started. I wouldn't say chipping away at that point, but maybe questions came up. So marrying my wife, she grew up in Seattle. She was a pretty progressive person for, I would say, for a member of the church. She would have classes. She had a class at byu, and her professor had a gay son. And her professor would share, like, I accept him and support him, and that's totally fine. And, you know, my relationship with my son is more important than, you know, any. Anything else. And my wife would share these ideas with me, and I would.

Mitch Hadfield [00:56:50] I would inside kind of push back, but I didn't really have us an answer to why. I don't agree with what she was telling me. But, yeah, so she would share ideas like this. I would say pretty frequently, you know, ways that she had been hurt in the church by being a woman. And I would, you know, internally push back but not really have any good answers for her.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:16] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [00:57:17] As we went along in our marriage, kind of my scrupulosity increased when we, you know, would pay tithing, she was like, you know, let's just do it on our net. And I would say no, we need to pay tithing on our gross. And you know, we're working as apartment managers, you know, we're getting rent in exchange for your work as an apartment manager. We need to pay, you know, estimate what our rent would be and pay tithing on that. And we need to be really generous with our fast offerings. And I was working, you know, as I'm not making a lot of money cleaning toilets at the mtc.

Mitch Hadfield [00:57:44] And you know, she was like hesitant about this, but later she shared with me that she felt, you know, like she didn't really have any grounds to, to push back. Anyway, so, so this went on and, and you know, we, we had our first son and when we had him, we were at the hospital in Orem and he, when he came out, we found out he had hydrocephalus. So his head had swollen really big.

Mitch Hadfield [00:58:18] They hadn't caught it in the ultrasounds. And we ended up taking a ambulance ride to Primary Children's for him to have brain surgery when he was like two days old. And you know, we didn't. I was on BYU health insurance, my wife was still on her parents insurance. We really had almost no money, you know, enough to not get into debt at byu, but not really any money to save anything. And so we ended up applying for Medicaid and my son had two surgeries, like one a couple days old and one three months later. And I think together they had costed like 150 grand.

Mitch Hadfield [00:58:56] And Medicaid saved our life at the time because, you know, there was no way we were paying for that. And it saved his life. But I remember, you know, I listened to talks while I exercised and I would listen to these talks and a couple of them were from President Benson and he was talking about socialism is bad, you shouldn't accept any help from the government. And I was just feeling torn up inside and you know, like, I'm not doing enough. I'm not support my family. Why can't I, you know, provide?

Mitch Hadfield [00:59:23] You know, going to school with a kid and a wife was really hard. And we got to the point where we were having a hard time, you know, providing food, enough food to eat. And so we got in another government program, it's called wic, Women Infant Children.

Mitch Hadfield [00:59:43] Sorry, Where we're now able to buy vegetables. My wife and son, you know, could have some healthy food. And I just remember feeling so torn up inside that, you know, why am I not good enough to be able to provide this at this point to my family?

Mitch Hadfield [01:00:12] And I had moved on from the mtc. And you know, I had an engineering internship, but it was still like $12 an hour. I was working as a research assistant and also helping doing the apartment managing, you know, Monson Apartments in Provo.

Mitch Hadfield [01:00:28] So I was working three jobs, doing school, my wife was working a job and, and we ended up getting pregnant again. We didn't, we didn't plan on it, but you know, I came home, my wife said, sit down. And I said, you know, what's up?

Mitch Hadfield [01:00:43] She's like, sit down. And I was like, no, I just got home, I'm gonna get a snack. And you know, she got kind of pissed and threw a pregnancy test at me. And I. We started crying and you know, we were like, how, how is this gonna work? You know, how are we gonna have a second kid? I'm still finishing my undergrad.

Mitch Hadfield [01:01:00] You know, we're maybe making like 20, 20 grand a year between us. And you know, we were paying like 8 grand in tithing and offerings at the time just because we felt like, you know, this is what we needed to do so the Lord would help us. And you know, so. So a lot, a lot of feelings of like these programs really helped us. But, but prophets have like kind of been down on them. So that started to come into play. A lot of, you know, my wife has these progressive views on social issues.

Mitch Hadfield [01:01:33] You know, prophets haven't always taken that stance. And it was kind of, you know, an internal back and forth. And I, and I remember Chris, um, I was all. So I guess when I came into the family, my view of Chris was, you know, Chris is this really nice guy. He's kind of sarcastic. I don't know if he hates me or likes me. He has some weird church views. So I'll just sit and like nod and talk to him, you know, about it because he likes to talk about it. But like, he seems like he's kind of faithful. You know, we'll be friends, but. But like I don't have to necessarily believe all these weird things he says about the church. I remember one laughing mar.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:14] I just can visualize the nod and.

Mitch Hadfield [01:02:17] Cuz like I was on one side of the spectrum and he was on the other. I was very, I was very literalist about everything.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] And anyway, weird liberal brother in law.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:28] Haven't we all witnessed conversations at family gatherings where that is exactly what's happening? There's one person talking in the. The other person's like thinking, how do

John Dehlin [01:02:37] I get out of here?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:38] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] How do I get this kind of. Shut up What a jerk.

Mitch Hadfield [01:02:41] How do you think that? I mean, I enjoyed time with you and you know, we connected on other things, you know, academic things.

Chris Lee [01:02:48] You know, Liz was, she would take me aside, like, you need to like open up to Mitch because, you know, he. We already had the other brother in law. I was like, we're good. Tyler clothes.

Mitch Hadfield [01:03:00] Yeah, so. So I'm married to the middle. So our wife, our wives are in a family of five girls. No, no brothers. And Chris married the oldest and I married the middle child. And we already, we have another brother in law who's kind of in between us. And the younger two aren't, aren't married yet.

Chris Lee [01:03:16] It did. And I was hesitant because I'm like, he's so super, you know, return missionary guy. Like, I gotta, we gotta figure out what the Venn diagram common ground area is. And one of the things that did it was how. Oh, I'm getting emotional. Mitch with my kids was. I was like, yeah, he's. She should marry this guy. He was so good with my kids.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:46] That's beautiful.

Mitch Hadfield [01:03:52] Anyway, yeah, I love kids.

Chris Lee [01:03:54] But I was weird. So that's what we were talking about before.

Mitch Hadfield [01:03:59] I remember one Thanksgiving, we were at your house, Chris in Ephraim, and our other brother in law was there and we had a conversation about polygamy. And Chris brought up, hey, there's this interesting book called Rough Stone Rolling.

Mitch Hadfield [01:04:15] It's by a church member. You would like this. And so I was like, okay, cool. And I wrote it down and I got the book and I, I listened to the audiobook and I remember learning a lot that I had never learned about. I didn't really know about Joseph Smith's polygamy.

Mitch Hadfield [01:04:33] I didn't really know about the Kinderhook Plates, about how Joseph Smith was anointed himself like king of the world and kind of acted like a general a lot of times. And there were a lot of aggressions from Mormons to the others that I didn't really know about, but I was still very faithful at this point. And I kind of rationalized it and, you know, I figured out a way to make it work. But I was like, hey, I really like learning about, about the prophets. So I was like, okay, let me get a book on Brigham Young now. And I, I found a book and it wasn't by a church member, but I was like, oh, it's a biography.

Mitch Hadfield [01:05:04] And you know, this will be cool. Learn about the next prophet. Maybe I'll just do this with all the prophets. And then Brigham Young's biography was A lot harder for me to swallow. And just learning a lot about John Turner's book. You know, I don't. I don't remember which one. It was pretty new.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] I don't know.

Mitch Hadfield [01:05:21] I'm not sure. I don't. I don't remember.

Chris Lee [01:05:22] And you didn't tell me any of this. Like, I didn't even know. You read Wrestling Rolling? No, I wasn't trying to. Like, Yeah, I was gonna say that.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] Like.

Mitch Hadfield [01:05:30] Like, no, he was not that way at all.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] You guys just kind of brushed over something really significant because when you're. When you're quietly liberal or even known to be liberal, but you're in a believing family, you feel this tension because you're different than everybody else. You know things that every. Most people don't know. You feel sometimes alone and isolated, and you also want people to know the truth, and you want people to see the world clearly and with all the information. And so you tell me if I'm wrong, Chris, but you feel this tug of, like, do I talk about the history that I know or the tough things with my believing family, or do I just let it go? And, you know, you said you shared rust on rolling with him, and he just. He just bit it like a fish on a.

Chris Lee [01:06:21] That was the last I heard about it for, like a year. I didn't even know that you had it.

John Dehlin [01:06:24] But sometimes when you make that introduction, the person feels threatened. They feel afraid. They feel like you're trying to take their testimony away. Their believing spouse may get threatened. Why are you. Why are you recommending an apostate book to my believing husband? And it can cause a lot of drama. So you guys passed over kind of a really significant step in your.

Chris Lee [01:06:44] Both.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Both of your progression, if I remember right.

Chris Lee [01:06:46] Like, it was the same time we were talking about, like, I had Joanna Brooks, his book, like, White Supremacy in the Mormon Church. I can't remember the title. The title sounds so much worse than what's in the book. It's just history. And you were like, what is that? I was like, oh. And I, like, hit it because it looks bad, right? And I was like, oh, it's just this history book. And then I, like, use that, I think, as a. As a way to, like, transition into. To Bushman's book. Because I'm like, he's. Don't read this thing. Like, it's just history of the church and it deals with race, but, like, maybe do this other one first and get there.

Chris Lee [01:07:18] So I was trying to be respectful. I was like, he's in the family. I don't want to cause these issues. Even with Liz, I was a little, you know, I was holding back on quite a bit too.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:28] So, yeah, that's what my question was. So with regard to your in law family culture, were they. How would you describe them with regard to books like Rough Stone Rolling or. It feels like as you're talking about both your wives, there is a little bit more of a liberal ish kind of approach. So what is it like at family gatherings and what were you feeling during that time? Both of you?

Mitch Hadfield [01:08:01] Me go first? Yeah, I think, I think on a lot of social issues, I think my wife was a lot more progressive than me and kind of pushed me along. As you know, I was very orthodox and very literalist in a lot of my beliefs. She grew up, you know, with gay friends and, you know, in Seattle and a good amount of, you know, difference of opinion and thought. And so a lot of those issues, like, she didn't really see them as problems that I, I did. I mean, our, our in laws are pretty open in their. Their views, I would say.

Chris Lee [01:08:41] Yeah, I mean, even, you know, I, I have really good conversations with my mother in law often. And this was probably back in 2016, so kind of post exclusion policy, that was another major issue at the time. And we had a really good conversation about it. And I just very open was like, look, I don't like this does. There's no way out of this. It just doesn't make any sense.

Chris Lee [01:09:05] Not just the policy stuff, but the, just the doctrine about, like, how is God making them this way? And then like, you're talking about LGBT people. Yeah, like it doesn't make sense. I have friends who are like, telling me about their experiences and, and you know, mother in law was just like, yeah, it's hard. I don't, I don't know if there are answers to that. And so we had like, really good conversations where I could kind of reveal a little bit more to her than maybe some other people, including my, my own parents. I mean, I, I feel bad that I. They were always late to the party because I'm like, I'm gonna destroy my mom.

Chris Lee [01:09:42] So. Nope. And part of it too is like in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, I'll solve it and then I'll tell people this like, funny thing I had for five years, you know, whatever. So, yes, our in laws are like, it's a, I think a really good environment and we'll probably talk more about that where we are now.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:01] But thank you for that.

Health Crisis, Leaving Provo, and Losing Belief

Mitch Hadfield [01:10:03] So about kind of when. When Covet hit, I had some health problems and was lost, like £50 and was bedridden for a while. And we ended up leaving Provo. I had done grad school and graduated with a. With a master's degree and got a job in Salt Lake, and we ended up buying a little townhouse out in Magna. So we're kind of adjusting to a new ward.

Mitch Hadfield [01:10:26] You know, I didn't really have a bunch of callings like I had before. Kind of felt a little bit adrift. Church went online, didn't most of our ward. Our ward had just been combined with another ward. It seems like know they were combining a lot of wards and Magna at the time.

Mitch Hadfield [01:10:41] It was a very old demographic. I didn't have those young people to connect with. Same same area of life. And I remember Elders Quorum was just so boring, you know, and it's just because a lot of people were connecting on common things they were going through. And they were all grandpas, and I was just an, you know, a new dad. And.

Mitch Hadfield [01:11:04] And so I got really bored and I started. I started, you know, exploring historical things on my phone. During Elders Quorum and during sacrament, I would, you know, research, you know, blacks in the priesthood or, you know, lgbt, you know, history in the church, things like that.

Mitch Hadfield [01:11:24] And. And then, you know, not with. With church going online and me being sick for a little while, you know, I stopped. I stopped reading my scriptures every day. I started exploring, you know, what do I think about different social issues.

Mitch Hadfield [01:11:43] And, you know, it was very internally torn for a while. I remember John, you know, I. At the time, I had decided internally that, you know, being lgbt, I didn't think it was a choice, you know, listening to the science. I. I have a scientific background with my, you know, degree in engineering.

Mitch Hadfield [01:12:05] So I was like, okay, how do I square this? How do I make this work? As a. As a believing member? I came across a TED Talk that you had done at usu. I believe it was called Mormon and Ally or something similar. Like that was in the title. I was like, googling things like that. And it came up and I, you know, I listened to it at work while I was, you know, doing some work, and I was like, this is it. Like, I can. I can make it work. Like, this is great. Like, I can. I can believe, but also support those who are LGBT and, like, let them, you know, express themselves and live.

Mitch Hadfield [01:12:36] And I don't have to, like, have a conflict. And so I, you know, I had. I talked a little bit with Chris at the time, and I sent him this TED Talk. And I was like, chris, like, you got to listen to this. Like, this is awesome. Like, we can kind of make it work.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:50] And.

Mitch Hadfield [01:12:50] And I got a text back, like, five minutes later. Yeah, I watched this years ago. He got excommunicated. And I was like, oh, like that. That was a big kind of hitter to me. And, you know, kind of led to me.

John Dehlin [01:13:03] Why are you so dismissive, Chris?

Chris Lee [01:13:04] I was trying to help you. It sounds so bad. I. I just. Like, he's going to go down this path, and then, you know, so I was like, well, maybe I can cut it off, because this might be better for you.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] Which path?

Chris Lee [01:13:14] Huh?

John Dehlin [01:13:14] Which path was he about to go down?

Chris Lee [01:13:16] The. The. Just the. He's gonna start watching Mormon stories and, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, it's like, I agree with the meth.

John Dehlin [01:13:27] Like, what?

Margi Dehlin [01:13:28] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:13:29] The drugs. Yeah. So just. Just so you know, informed consent. That's what I was trying to do. Right. We value that here. So I was like, just. Just. Maybe you want to know this, but I. I thought you knew already.

Mitch Hadfield [01:13:41] I have no clue.

Chris Lee [01:13:42] I didn't realize. I was like, I didn't even know.

Mitch Hadfield [01:13:44] Is that old. I. Yeah, I didn't look at the date.

Chris Lee [01:13:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:47] So you were still believing in active? Semi believing in active at this point, even up to 2019?

Chris Lee [01:13:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:53] Wow. Okay.

Chris Lee [01:13:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] Wow.

Mitch Hadfield [01:13:56] So you.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] You did. How long were you doing the progressive liberal.

Chris Lee [01:14:01] Like, here's some, like, quick bullet points. You know, exclusion policy, 2015. I stopped wearing garments because I felt like I have too many issues right now. I don't know what to do with these things, so. And I haven't gone to the temple, so I'm not gonna. I just. This feels wrong. I'm not doing my covenants. I'm not living up to my covenants that I've made.

Chris Lee [01:14:19] And that's hard to hide from a spouse. Like, there are ways, but it's tricky, you know? But so that kind of like, well, what's going on? And. And my wife and I kind of both have this habit of not confronting things until it explodes. And, you know, it can be a problem. So we just didn't talk about it for a while. And she's like, why are you wearing garments? And like, well, I think actually at the time, I'm like, I've gained some weight. Like, I need to get, like, mediums. Yeah. Honestly, I was like, so don't worry about it. Like, I'll get there. And I'm like, crap, I can't lose weight again because, like, this garments.

Chris Lee [01:14:58] This is. This is a problem to maintain this reason. So, so that. And then so we moved to Orem New Ward, and I was like, hey, you know, every time we do that, it's like, reset. Let's do this again. I'm going to meet new people, and no one knows me, so maybe I can, like, lean into the progressive thing. Nope, it was the opposite. I just further, like, fold in and become this, like, quiet, you know, like, oh, I don't like that. I like that. And it just kind of starts escalating, you know, we start getting politics involved. I'm like, I don't know. I do not represent the views of the podcast.

Chris Lee [01:15:31] But why. Why are people loving Trump? Like, what the hell's going on? Like, it just didn't make any sense to me. I'm like, I. I have voted Republican. You know, I voted Democrat, and I just started seeing, like, the blending of, you know, conservative politics. I know I missed the whole Benson era, so I, you know, but, like, I don't like this, you know, but I didn't say anything. And so I was very, very quiet. I made, like, like, one kind of friend in my ward. People were friendly. It wasn't really a. I didn't feel like I was being picked on or something like that, but I didn't feel comfortable to say anything.

Chris Lee [01:16:03] And so that kind of ramped it up. And then I talked to my bishop and say, hey, I don't know if I should have a temple recommend. You know, I'm not wearing garments. I've had these issues. And he was really good about it. He was like, you're teaching at BYU

Mitch Hadfield [01:16:15] at the time, though, right?

Chris Lee [01:16:15] So it mattered. And. And he said, well, I've never had that happen to me, so I can't really relate. But I know people in the ward who, like, maybe there was a. A guy who, like, writes for dialogue, and, you know, and that was the space I was in. Like, I'm reading dialogue. I'm reading Sunstone. Like, I'm reading Patrick Mason's Planted, you know, in Hawaii. You remember that? And I'm like, that's how committed I was. We're in Hawaii, and I'm reading, like, a Faithful Promoting Mormon book because I'm like, like, there's got to be a way to fix this stuff.

Chris Lee [01:16:44] Great book, by the way. I actually love the episode that you did with Patrick Mason. And so I tell the bishop, and he was really good about it. And then it was like, two days later, I get a call from, like, BYU's Academic affairs and. Or whatever it was coming out of. Can you meet with us? And, yeah, I thought a student complained about something. I'm like, what did I do? I make jokes, but I'm pretty safe there. So what happened? And I get called in and it was, hey, so your bishop didn't endorse you and didn't sign it and like, thanks for your service.

Chris Lee [01:17:12] I'm like, what? And he's like, smiling about it. I'm like, your job's fun. But he says, well, like, you can finish out the semester. This is like half your bishop turned on you. I, I really liked this bishop. And I'm just assuming it was just he didn't check a box. Like, that's probably what happened, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:31] I don't think it works that way.

Chris Lee [01:17:33] But he's so good.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] You're being so.

Chris Lee [01:17:35] Wait, you had.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:36] So what you're really. What I'm hearing is you had no sense. You had no sense when you talked to the bishop that actually it was gonna. He was gonna. Well, on some level, you know what?

Chris Lee [01:17:48] Okay, you're probably right, because it wasn't a. It wasn't a recommended renewal. It was. I'm initiating this. I don't know if I should have this. What do you think? And he was like, okay, well. And then it was so he. I guess. But he wasn't dressed under the table. There's like a button. There's like a red button. And he's like. And then it like, alerts the BYU police or whatever. Right? I don't know. But he was trying to help, I guess, doing his job. I don't, I don't hold any malice towards this bishop.

John Dehlin [01:18:16] No, he was defending the kingdom. He was a watchman on the tower, making sure those BYU young, vulnerable BYU testimonies remain pure and safe.

Mitch Hadfield [01:18:25] That's right.

Chris Lee [01:18:25] Sure. Yeah. And so. And I brought that up. So when I'm in this meeting, he says, well, you can finish out the semester. And I'm like, well, yeah. And I says, does it matter that, like, I can show you, like, 10 years almost of, like, student evaluations that say this class prepped me better than my mission prep class because it's all about argument and persuasion and understanding other people's viewpoints. And he's like, no. Like, none of that matters. Right. So they can get you fired, but they're not going to save you. So I said, okay, well, he's like, there is a 90 day probation period we can do.

Chris Lee [01:19:01] And I'm like, in my head. $15,000. Yeah, maybe, you know, we should make this work. And. But I wanted to be authentic about it. I was like, I don't want to live this thing where I have to go lie to my bishop because I'm having these issues. So it's okay to have issues, right? As long as I'm not, like, going on Mormon stories or, you know, whatever. So that's kind of what I did as I did this plan, and I worked with them. And I'm like, I still believe, you know, And I did. And I'm like, but do you live the word of wisdom? I'm like, I don't drink monsters and, like, dip sugar cookies into Mountain Dews.

Chris Lee [01:19:38] And I take care of my body, but I drink coffee. Yeah, I'm good. Right? Like, that was the way that I kind of. And I know that the recommended interview questions are getting more like that, where you can kind of like, yeah, I try to wear garments, you know, and

Mitch Hadfield [01:19:49] that was like a coffee this point, right?

Chris Lee [01:19:51] Yeah. And that was like, the biggest one where those are the garment questionings. I'm like, that one's harder to like. So I would, like, wear them for a few weeks before. I'm like, I'm back into it. And then I wear them a few weeks after. And then I'd be like, well, so I was just kind of like, try to find this space where I was being me, but also not totally violating, know, these. These laws and covenants and stuff. But it wears on you. And it's like, I got to go in and. And I mentioned this to you before we were on. But my experience was, if you have a calling, your bishop just doesn't even bother you.

Chris Lee [01:20:20] He just renews it. But if you don't, you know, then they check in and have the conversation. Right? And I get it. Like, they. I know people listening are like, you sign up for this thing just like all the students. Like, that's true, right? But, like, people change. You know, I'm teaching for, like, a decade here, trying to make this work. And I love teaching there. I love the students. I still keep in contact with, like, dozens of them.

Chris Lee [01:20:46] And I'd have people reach out. My wife at one point said, you, like, that's your mission. Like, you're helping students who, like, don't fit byu. And you say some, like, semi liberal thing, and they're like, wait, like, I don't see that at a BYU ever. So they come after and talk to me after class, and I'd have these really good conversations. One of the reasons why I want to do this.

Chris Lee [01:21:08] So that was rough. I didn't tell my wife about any of this, by the way. No, no. Like, it wasn't like, three years later. I'm like, by the way, I almost got fired from BYU because it's just going to cause all these problems. Right. And so. So that war was really when things started culturally, and the community was just driving me crazy. And the. There's one thing I wrote down where.

Chris Lee [01:21:31] And I was reading a lot more history that wasn't, like, from Mormon authors or whatever. And so there's a lesson about. It was Thomas B. Marsh. Right. So dnc.

John Dehlin [01:21:43] Milk strippings.

Chris Lee [01:21:44] Yep. And I'm hearing this, and I'm like, I knew better because I had read stuff, and I can't keep turning to my wife. I'm like, this is such bullshit. Okay, this stuff happened. I get it. But here's what's not in the lesson. There's stuff.

John Dehlin [01:22:00] Wait, wait. I don't think we've ever really covered this. Okay, well, give the church's version and then give.

Chris Lee [01:22:05] We don't. I mean, do we need to do this? I guess, like, give the abbreviated version. Church version is something. It's like this folklore story about, you know, there was a dispute with milk strippings. Strippings. I don't know.

Mitch Hadfield [01:22:21] The marshes get offended.

Chris Lee [01:22:23] Yeah. Tom, who's an apostle. Right. He's an apostle. This is Joseph Smith, contemporary. He gets offended and leaves the church. Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:22:32] The.

John Dehlin [01:22:32] The. And the cautionary tale is don't be so petty and trivial that you leave the church over something dumb.

Chris Lee [01:22:38] Yep.

Mitch Hadfield [01:22:39] Like milk strippings.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] Can you believe?

Chris Lee [01:22:40] Or Simon's writer, like, misspells a name. Right?

John Dehlin [01:22:44] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:22:44] Like, it's. It's a Y, not an eye. I'm out. I'm leaving. Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:47] Or like, you see someone who saw Joseph Smith Smith playing with a little kid and said, a prophet shouldn't be on the ground playing with the kid.

Chris Lee [01:22:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] All these cautionary tales that are, you know, dubious, but, yeah. They send the message, don't be. Don't be petty, don't be dumb, don't be superficial.

Mitch Hadfield [01:23:03] Don't get offended.

John Dehlin [01:23:03] Don't leave the church. Don't get offended. Right. And that's the Thomas B. Marsh story.

Chris Lee [01:23:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:08] As told by correlation.

Chris Lee [01:23:09] You're not far off. Like, that's probably, like, lesson purpose. Like, people don't leave the church unless it's for dumb reasons. And in my space, that really pissed me off because it was. I was like, how is this not intentional?

John Dehlin [01:23:26] Wait, no, no, no.

Reading the CES Letter and Researching Church History

Chris Lee [01:23:28] Okay, so. So. So the stuff that I had read was, like, there was Danite stuff going on, which is basically this group of, like, Mormon. What would you call them, vigilantes or something?

John Dehlin [01:23:38] Yeah. Joseph Smith had a group of kind of vigilantes that would. And potentially engage in violent behavior to defend the kingdom, basically.

Chris Lee [01:23:47] Yeah. And, like, I get there's, like, tenuous arguments about, was he, like, telling people to do this? Was he hard? And Marsh brings us up. He's like, I don't like this. You know, I think this might be hurting our situation and should we really be doing this? And, you know, he just, like, wouldn't. He wouldn't denounce them. He wouldn't say anything. And he had a problem with this. Like, maybe a prophet should. I'm like, you know, does that, like, prove anything about Joe Smith?

John Dehlin [01:24:10] No.

Chris Lee [01:24:11] But does it give substance to someone's issue with what a prophet should be doing? That's not as dumb as playing with a little kid with a stick on the. On the ground. And they don't tell you that part. And there's even some things to suggest that there might have been some shenanigans with Thomas B. Marsh's wife and Joseph maybe, like, saying, hey, this polygamy thing. And I don't know how. How much there is in that record, but that doesn't come up. And if it did, you think that's a legitimate concern. And it was also heartbreaking because I'm thinking, what a perfect opportunity to say, these are serious concerns.

Chris Lee [01:24:46] How do we overcome issues that we might have with modern prophets, with things that we don't agree with, like get vaccinated or whatever. And that's not the lesson. Right. And so I'm just, like, talking in my wife's ear, and I'm just, like, getting really frustrated. And then you learn. He rejoins the church in Salt Lake, and Brigham Young in conference is like. Like, shaming him, you know, and it's like, you don't learn anyway. There's just more to it. Right. So I'm like, is it a lie? No. Is it omission? Yes. And I just started seeing more of that. And dnc, it was a. It was a bad year to be studying that for where I was, or a good year, depending on your perspective.

Chris Lee [01:25:26] And I'm just constantly like. And it got to the point where even my wife's like, I don't think just go home. I mean, go to sacrament. But you're getting so frustrated. And it started. I started getting kind of upset. So my Frustration was a bit delayed, but it wasn't like the betrayal, it was just like, you know, anyway, so that's sort of where I was when you're coming in the family and we're becoming friends and, and that's, that's so

John Dehlin [01:25:53] common that there's a mixed faith couple where one starts to doubt and they white knuckle it for as many years as they can. But you start to feel like a second class citizen. You start to feel outraged by all the bigotry or false history that's being taught. And then you start wondering, why can everybody else share what they want to share? But I got to stay silent. But then when you start trying to share things, you make everybody uncomfortable and you start to like lose privileges, whether it's BYU or temple or, or dating your own child or whatever. And ultimately it leads to anger. This, this is like every questioning liberal Mormon ever, except like Patrick Mason, maybe one other person. And at some point it turns to rage because when you just, when you just hide and lie and pack these things down over an extended period of time, it creates anger.

Chris Lee [01:26:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] So some of the angriest people I've ever met are non believing Mormons who are living a lie, acting like they're believers when they really aren't. And it just wears on them over time.

Chris Lee [01:27:01] Yeah. And I was still believing. There were just a lot of problems that I was, I was still very quiet about it. It's anything in church, it works with progressive Mormon so much.

Mitch Hadfield [01:27:10] To Liz, I remember noticing things like, you know, probably not good, but like, oh, he's not wearing garments. Like, oh, he's, he's drinking coffee. And I remember thinking like, oh no, something's happening. Like, what's wrong? That's a coffee pot. Things like that.

Chris Lee [01:27:25] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [01:27:25] But like also not being able to square it with. He's still a great family man. Like, he's still really nice to me. Things seem to be still going well in your marriage. Like what's, yeah.

Chris Lee [01:27:34] And you start like, it does become kind of almost like a little scientific experiment. Like, well, if, if this is,

Margi Dehlin [01:27:43] you

Chris Lee [01:27:43] know, if there's information that's limited and you know, like, this isn't right and this has been a problem. Like, well, maybe I am allowed to kind of do it my way and no one can tell me any better. I know, like I'm, I should just invoke the cafeteria Mormon label. Right. Which everybody does, by the way. There's no way you can't do that. So, yeah, I'm just like, I don't feel different. You know, I'm like, I tried this latte from Starbucks, which is even, like, real coffee, probably. And, like, I'm like, waiting.

John Dehlin [01:28:12] What are you talking about?

Margi Dehlin [01:28:13] Yeah, especially this time of year.

John Dehlin [01:28:15] Pumpkin spice brought to you by Starbucks.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:19] It's joy. It's a hug.

Chris Lee [01:28:22] Morning.

John Dehlin [01:28:23] Hugging a cup. Yeah. The other day, Margi says to me, literally, like, the Mormon Church was worth leaving just for the coffee alone.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:31] We were in. We were in. We were in Vermont. And it was not, like, said lightly. I was like, really? Coffee and all that it represents and brings to my life.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] And by the way, believing Mormons who are listening, that's not us saying to leave the church. That's just. That was a joke. Margi was just saying how much she loves coffee.

Mitch Hadfield [01:28:51] But coffee. Coffee's great, though. I remember on my mission, there was a time period where a senior missionary in Ukraine had bought his wife chocolates for Valentine's Day, and they were all coffee. And so he's like, well, like, she didn't want them. She's like, oh, gross. And I, like, took the box, and he's like, you want this? And I was like, yeah. And I, like, ate, like, most of the box that day. And I was like, this tastes so good.

Chris Lee [01:29:09] You binge, man. Yeah. So things just ramped up a lot.

Mitch Hadfield [01:29:15] Like, family gatherings. I feel like we were, like, pairing off and just chatting for, like, hours.

Chris Lee [01:29:20] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [01:29:20] For. For a while.

Chris Lee [01:29:22] And it was still, like, you were still tap dancing around it.

Mitch Hadfield [01:29:25] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:29:25] And I genuinely didn't know any. Like, I didn't know you were having any issues at all.

Mitch Hadfield [01:29:29] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:29:30] And I would have been more careful if you told me many of this stuff.

Mitch Hadfield [01:29:36] So we talk about tons of different issues. You know, the church's hundred billion dollar fund, you know, women in the church, LGBT topics, blacks in the priesthood, things like that. Yeah, Kind of.

Chris Lee [01:29:53] You know, you saying earlier about Theodore and the.

Mitch Hadfield [01:29:57] That's our son.

Chris Lee [01:29:58] Financialists. Yeah. The financial burden. And then you learn about the. The 130.

Mitch Hadfield [01:30:07] Whatever.

Chris Lee [01:30:08] And.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:09] All the money.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:09] You.

Mitch Hadfield [01:30:10] All the money. We spent eight grand of our 20 grand in a year where we had. Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:30:15] And it shows.

Mitch Hadfield [01:30:16] Yeah. So we. I. I looked at our tithing, so. But we had spent eight grand on tithing and offerings. Trying to be very generous, you know, at a time where we were on Medicaid for health expenses and using WIC because we couldn't afford, you know, vegetables.

Mitch Hadfield [01:30:32] You know, it made me very angry, You know, because I believed, you know, when we were giving, you know, you know, generous amounts of money at that. That, you know, 8,000 might be not a lot to. To some folks, but, you know, when we were in school with kids, you know, it was a ton of money for us.

Mitch Hadfield [01:30:55] You know, we did our 10%, and then we tried to do a lot in fast offerings and to learn that the church was loaded and that they pitched that tithing, you know, above all else, even if you're hungry, you know, whatever, you always just pay. That was kind of a gut punch.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] What about the logic or the justification that the blessings are for you? The church doesn't need your money. You need the blessings. Did that.

Mitch Hadfield [01:31:20] Yeah. We also need the vegetables. So, you know, so it just made me very angry.

Chris Lee [01:31:27] Yeah. And it just shows how people's different subjective experiences really frame how we react to this information. Because, you know, I learned this and I'm like, dang, that's a lot of money. Like, I knew they were wealthy, but, man. Yeah, that's. I could see how that's troubling, you know, but then, like, from your experience. Yeah, that's. It's like. It's like, offensive.

Mitch Hadfield [01:31:47] And I always knew. I always knew the church was well off and well run from a financial perspective. And I always thought that was, you know, a testament to the Lord leading the church. And, you know, financially, the church isn't in debt and, you know, they're doing well. But I didn't really understand the scope.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] Hundreds of billions.

Mitch Hadfield [01:32:07] Hundreds of billions in stock. You know, I thought a lot of it was in, you know, just real estate and different church buildings, and they had enough money to build chapels and temples. And, you know, I also didn't know, you know, church leaders were paid anyway. But. So that was a gut punch.

Chris Lee [01:32:26] Well, also, to respond to what you're saying to, like, we. We can all agree, right? It's still a choice to pay tithing. And so it seems like it would be reasonable to expect that all the information is given to you so you can choose what you want to do with that. And that's. You didn't have a choice to know that information until it was leaked. Right. And so I, like, I get that. And I always thought the same thing, too, like, you're blessed or anything, but, like, just give me information. Let me. Let me make a decision, you know, so.

Mitch Hadfield [01:33:01] Yeah, because even on my mission, my mission president would always harp, you know, the widow's might. The widow's might. You know, I thought the money was going to help people anyway. I just thought it was being used in a lot different ways than what it was. The quantities were a lot different than I knew.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:21] Yep. Yeah. What did it mean for the both of you now to be connecting and being able to talk openly and to have someone to actually talk to?

Mitch Hadfield [01:33:35] I don't know. For me, it was just nice to have someone else who had kind of been through it a little more and who had kind of maybe simmered down a little bit because I. I did go through a very angry phase.

Chris Lee [01:33:47] Yeah. Do you want to talk about the C less letter thing?

Mitch Hadfield [01:33:49] Yeah, I guess I can share, but I guess so. I. I saw John's TED Talk on Mormon and Ally was like, this is great. Texted to Chris. He was like, hey, he's excommunicated. I was like, oh, no. So I started just researching, like, John and, and found Mormon stories and started listening to a couple episodes and I, I heard like the CES letter mentioned and within a span of a day or two, I went home and like, you know, this kind of sounds kind of funny, like the. All night read your scriptures and come to a testimony. But from like reverse 10pm to like 3am I read like the CES letter in another publication.

Mitch Hadfield [01:34:26] It was like some CES direct any. Anyway, and, And a lot of the things in the CS letter, I, I had, I guess by that point in the week had heard about, but to see everything laid out, it was very damaging, I guess, to my testimony. And kind of overnight I decided that I did not believe the church was true anymore. You know, I had, I had been very angry a couple days before and, you know, the church isn't what it seems, but I was still kind of, you know, I. Still trying to believe. And reading the CES letter, it kind of all came smashing down kind of overnight, and it was very abrupt.

Chris Lee [01:35:06] Yeah. And it highlights our experiences being different.

Mitch Hadfield [01:35:09] Right.

Chris Lee [01:35:09] You, you, you're. And you were still sort of chewing on things.

Mitch Hadfield [01:35:12] Sure.

Chris Lee [01:35:13] Right. But it was, but it was a fast, very slow. I. I shawshanked my way.

Mitch Hadfield [01:35:18] You're right.

Chris Lee [01:35:18] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [01:35:19] A little spoonful at a time.

Chris Lee [01:35:20] Yeah. It was slow. And so I knew, like, oh, it was hard for me, even though it was so slow. I. I'm like worried about you. So when you sent me that text, have you read the CES letter? I was like, oh, like, I. And it was really shocking because you hadn't really even brought anything up.

Mitch Hadfield [01:35:38] No.

Chris Lee [01:35:39] About you. You were, I could see in hindsight you were like, testing the waters. Like, we were talking.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:42] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [01:35:43] We talked different topics. Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:35:44] And I said like, yeah, I don't, I don't know if I think the Book of Mormon's historically accurate, but I don't think it matters. I think it's fine, like, not to think that. And then I think that gave you confidence to reveal more. And my response to you is like, I sent you the fair, like, big old response to it, like, oh, but this. Like, there are answers, you know, and you were like, I've already read that. Oh, he's been thinking about this longer than I thought. So. And that kind of opened up, like, the lines of communication, and I was like, trying to be like. Like, like think about, you know, your family, like, make sure that you're in a healthy space, but, like, trying to, like, coach you, even though I don't know what I'm doing.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] So if I'm kind of observing this dynamic that I've seen in 20,000 different ways, normally the. The semi believer is kind of suffering in silence, waiting, waiting for some other family member to be an ally. And so they're almost like, bursting at the seams, trying to prod people to lose their faith so that then they can have someone who at least gets them or someone to talk to during the family. Eventually. It sounds like you weren't quite there trying to nudge Mitch out of the church.

Mitch Hadfield [01:36:59] Kind of the opposite.

Chris Lee [01:37:00] Yeah. Because it was. It was Mitch. Right. I mean, it was such a black and white. I'm like, like, I going from, like, kind of black and white thinking to. Not that you were always.

Mitch Hadfield [01:37:10] No, but as far as the church was concerned, it was very black and

Chris Lee [01:37:13] white to the other side. Like, that's gonna destroy you and your family. So. But I mean, if I'm being honest, there was part of me, it's like, like, hey, like, can we talk now? But, you know, I was trying to be respectful and look at the bigger picture.

John Dehlin [01:37:28] And so, Chris, you were ambivalent, excited to have kind of a potential ally.

Chris Lee [01:37:33] Yeah. I'm not gonna lie.

John Dehlin [01:37:34] Like, absolutely. But also not wanting to see his life blow up.

Mitch Hadfield [01:37:38] That's right. But I remember you sharing at times with me, like, it's been hard for years. I've been the only one. You know, I've been shouldering this all by myself.

Chris Lee [01:37:46] Yeah. And then the. The mission stuff kicks in a bit, too, because it's like these two return missionaries that marry into the family, and I'm like. Like, I'm like, the bad one, so. And no one said that. Right. But I just, like. So I was like, wait, there might be another one of us that can at least, like, between the Two of us validate each other and just feel like we're not alone.

Processing Faith Loss Alongside a Believing Spouse

Margi Dehlin [01:38:08] So I have a question for you really quick, Mitch. About. So 10:00pm till 3:00am all night.

Mitch Hadfield [01:38:17] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:18] So who you are when you start at 10pm is quite different than 3am and that's. That's quite a. Quite a quick kind of. Can you describe, like, what that journey was like in those five hours? And. And a bit of what it felt like coping with, you know?

Mitch Hadfield [01:38:39] Yeah. So for. For the weeks previous to that, you know, I was. I was a believer. I was trying to make it work. I was learning things that were upsetting, but I still fundamentally believed that the church was true, that there was some way to rationalize or work things out. And then overnight, you know, every. Everything that I had known for the last, you know, at that point, 26, 27 years, everything I had built my life on, everything I built my marriage on, you know, shattered, you know, in a matter of hours.

Mitch Hadfield [01:39:18] And it was really scary. And I didn't really know what to do. I didn't know if I should tell my wife, if I should pretend like everything was fine. You know, a lot of fear went through my mind. Will my wife want to be with me?

Mitch Hadfield [01:39:31] Am I going to lose my marriage? I have two kids at this point. You know, I love the life we built together, you know, but what do I do? I just. I didn't know. Yeah, I just was very unsure, very scared to talk to my wife. And, you know, that's what I was most scared of, was potentially losing that relationship because, you know, you just never know what the other person's feeling, where they're at.

John Dehlin [01:40:04] Yeah. And I was. What I was also going to say is, so, Chris, you're ambivalent at this point, but it sounds like Mitch leapfrogs you in like a couple days and just completely skips the progressive Mormon part.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] And just starts. Starts going towards the exit.

Chris Lee [01:40:19] Y.

John Dehlin [01:40:19] Well, you're like, whoa, slow down, bro. Slow down.

Chris Lee [01:40:22] Right? I. I think I was like, pump the brakes, like, because that was my experience. Like, the. Maybe it's not as bad if you slow this down, but just kind of came out. So how do you put it back at that point? So I tried to be like, send the memes, man. Do. Do all the things. Send them to me. You know, we're at like, these big family things for a couple days, and, like, it was therapeutic, Right. For you to.

Mitch Hadfield [01:40:47] To joke and laugh and just try to find a way. I mean, I. The next day, in the evening, I Think I waited a day. I went to work and came home, if I'm remembering right. But at some point in the next day, day and a half, I'd sat down. My wife and I, you know, I shared, you know, Becca, these are. This is kind of what I learned. This is kind of what I went through in the last week and a half.

Mitch Hadfield [01:41:13] And this is where I'm at now. And I think it was a pretty big shock to her. I'm not sure she really knew where I was at up until that point. And I think if I was reading her right, her fear was more that now that I was wanting to leave the church, I would leave her as well, and less of, I don't want you now that you've left the church.

Mitch Hadfield [01:41:39] And so, you know, she was. I mean, I thought she did a great job. She listened, very affirming. She was still very believing, but also very reassuring, like, I still want to be with you, and I hope I was with her as well. And so that. That did take away a huge portion of the fear and the anxiety I was feeling about the. About the process.

John Dehlin [01:42:05] So she said what? I love you no matter what. Or what.

Mitch Hadfield [01:42:08] Yeah. She's basically like, I love you no matter what. I want to be with you. I love our life. I love, you know, our kids. You know, I chose to marry you. I still love you. And. And that was very touching to know, you know, that she still wanted me, that she still loved me, you know, even if my beliefs had changed, and that I wasn't going to lose that relationship, you know, my best friend and, you know, everything that would come with that. So that was a huge relief.

John Dehlin [01:42:47] And I can't probably overemphasize how rare that is in Mormonism to have just an understanding spouse that's like, hey, I love you no matter what. I'm not trying to trivialize.

Mitch Hadfield [01:42:56] Oh, not. Not at all. And I think she was. She did go through a lot of periods where she was like, we, you know, existential crisis. We build our whole marriage on this. This has been the whole plan. She's very much of a planner. Like, what's the. But it was never like, I need to leave you to keep with the plan. It was like, where do we go from here? Like, how does this work?

Margi Dehlin [01:43:15] You know, Still a team.

Mitch Hadfield [01:43:17] Yeah, very much so.

John Dehlin [01:43:20] The other thing you guys skipped is the tension of having believing. Well, maybe you didn't skip it, but what I relate to is this tension of believing family members sort of like going, wait a minute. Yeah, two of These dudes are not on plan. And then whenever there's a family get together, there's like, you know, who are they talking about? And like that or not.

Mitch Hadfield [01:43:44] Yeah, we can talk about it. I think it's a good, funny story.

Chris Lee [01:43:47] Well, because it was close to when this happened.

Mitch Hadfield [01:43:48] It was pretty quick after this. Yeah, I listened to all your President Bench and Benson Mormon stories episodes and

Chris Lee [01:43:55] we started sharing stuff. Right.

Mitch Hadfield [01:43:58] And so we were talking kind of openly at the dinner table one night about, you know, and we kind of had mostly extended family was there anyway.

John Dehlin [01:44:07] And.

Chris Lee [01:44:08] Well, I think the moment is just you, I and our mother in law and everyone else was watching TV on the couch and we were talking about some feminist stuff. And you know, I can't remember the exact topic. And I want you to tell me your perspective because my perspective, like you were like raising your voice, like objectively raising your voice.

Mitch Hadfield [01:44:28] I think I was just getting excited. But we were talking about like, you know, women don't have the priesthood and how women might feel, you know, like they don't have a say in the church. Because these were a lot of things like my wife had voiced to me over the years, but I didn't really like fully embrace until I was like, now seeing everything through a new light.

Mitch Hadfield [01:44:45] And you know, my mother in law is very nuanced member of the church, but she was like, you know, I don't really need the priesthood, I don't really want it. And I kind of pushed back and I think maybe I was getting pretty excited. I was like, but you should have the option one way or the other. Like, if you don't want it, that's fine. But like, women in general should be able to, you know, be in leadership positions, make, make choices. Like, even if you don't, if you personally don't want that. But I, I think I was getting kind of loud.

Chris Lee [01:45:11] You were kind of. You're finding your voice, right? And I'm thinking like, oh, no, we can, we can like push back in a gentle way, right? And. And I remember like, so we're back here and you're just starting to see like, heads turn because. Oh, that's not Chris talking. Like, that's Mitch.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:28] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:45:28] Like what? And then it was like, this was like days after, you're kind of out, dude. Because now everyone's gonna be talking. They're gonna go to their rooms and be like, what's going on with Mitch? I'm like, and now I'm gonna get pulled ings like it's him. Like, he's Toxic. Right? So we're like, well, I think that might have done it. And I remember texting our mother in law later, a couple days later, being like, hey, like I'm sorry. Like I feel like we were ganging up on you. And she's like, no, I don't think that way at all. And then I accidentally. Oh yeah, yeah, it's a comedy of errors. Accidentally sent her like the Gretchen Day episode because I had, I was like really cherry picking.

Mitch Hadfield [01:46:07] Were you trying to send it to me or someone else?

Chris Lee [01:46:09] Faithful episodes. And I start like, well maybe I'll try this one. Like we'll see. And so I'm starting to send him one and I accidentally. Mitch. Margaret. Mitch.

John Dehlin [01:46:17] Bloop.

Chris Lee [01:46:18] It goes to Margaret. I was like, oh well, lean into it. So I'm like, I just. This might give you a perspective of where I am. And it just kind of let it all out. And I was like, which was probably for the best. And I said, here's sort of where I am. I don't want you to be worried about us, about Liz and the kids. And like I, I don't believe this or this or this anymore. I'm not out of the church. I'm kind of trying to figure this out. But like I won't talk about Mitch's story but so it kind of probably was healthy in a way to like accidentally send that text. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:50] Are you, are you, are you vibing with this or dying to say something or.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:54] Oh, no, just okay in it. Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [01:46:57] And I think not shortly after that too. Our mother in law, you know, so they live in Saratoga Springs, Chris is in Ephraim, I'm in Magna. But we, we spend a lot of time at our in laws house with our families. And you know, one night it's like 11 o' clock and our mother in law kind of pulls us aside and we're, we're chatting and she expresses to us like, like I know you guys have different views now. I don't. I still want to be a part of your lives and a part of your kids lives. Like how can this work? You know, like she was like just like very concerned that this might kind of break up the family dynamic. Like not. She wasn't like it wasn't concerned like that we had left the church and maybe she was feeling that, I don't know.

Chris Lee [01:47:41] And it wasn't like a condition, like here's how it was. It was just seeking to understand.

Mitch Hadfield [01:47:45] It was more like, hey, I, I don't want to offend you. Guys, I still want to be a part of your kid's life. Like, how can I, you know? Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:54] Sounds direct.

Mitch Hadfield [01:47:54] And we talked for, like, several hours,

Chris Lee [01:47:56] and then we talked till 2 in the morning.

Mitch Hadfield [01:47:58] And she was sharing how she felt, and we kind of shared as well.

Chris Lee [01:48:02] And it was. It was good to illustrate. Like, even you and I didn't agree on certain things.

Mitch Hadfield [01:48:06] Oh, that's right.

Chris Lee [01:48:07] You showed that. Like, I was like. And I don't. I'm not in the same space with Mitch on that.

Mitch Hadfield [01:48:10] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:48:11] Right. So try to sort of keep it nuanced. And we were asking her questions, like, without. I know. Trying to explain yourself, you know. Yeah. And so that's one thing we wanted to talk about, is, like, our. My parents have been pretty good. They're. They're runs in the family. But it's. Sometimes don't talk about things. That might be the best policy. But I told my parents, I don't know, a year ago in September, kind of where I was, and, like, you helped me. So, like, I feel like we were kind of doing the Lift each other up a bit, where I felt very confident to, like, you know what?

Chris Lee [01:48:49] I'm gonna start revisiting some of these history things that I didn't think about for 10 years, because apologetics was great. Let's read some responses, and then let's put everything together. And I hadn't really done that. And I'm like, whoa. You know, you talk about this on the LDS discussions, episodes a lot, but, like, this thing works here, but, like, actually directly contradicts that thing. Right. And there's all these disparate pieces and ways of making it work, or it's this. And it solves all of it. Right. Not to oversimplify it, because it does get complicated, but because you get answers

John Dehlin [01:49:26] for things in isolation. But when you take.

Chris Lee [01:49:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] The full context and all the items together, it's. It can be a different picture.

Mitch Hadfield [01:49:33] I remember part of that conversation, though, with Margaret. She was like, you know, you guys are drinking coffee now. Is that. Should I bring a coffee pot into my house so you guys can have it? We're like, like, very accommodating.

Chris Lee [01:49:43] Like, you don't need to do that.

Mitch Hadfield [01:49:44] She was like, I'm not comfortable with alcohol. I don't know if you had drink by then. I, I, you know, I didn't drink, but, you know, but very accommodating. And we kind of came to the conclusion, like, at your house, you do it your way, and we'll pray and do all this.

Chris Lee [01:49:58] Like we respect like your house.

Mitch Hadfield [01:50:00] We'll do it.

Chris Lee [01:50:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] I mean I have, yeah, I don't, I don't have like data on this, but like Margi keeps making faces at me. Anecdotally, it sounds like you have the mother in law of the century.

Mitch Hadfield [01:50:11] That's right.

Chris Lee [01:50:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:12] So that's rare because. So. So I mean, and she's a good role model. Like you have her.

Mitch Hadfield [01:50:19] Well.

John Dehlin [01:50:19] And mother in law Mormon story.

Chris Lee [01:50:21] Yeah. All right, let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:50:22] Because. Because so many people have like the in laws are stressed and angry and they start to tag you as a threat and then they start to exclude people, the non believers from the family tax and they start to like it can even get as bad as encouraging their believing children to like divorce the non believing partners and it can fracture families so that like people aren't invited to family dinners anymore or family vacations and people get excluded. That's actually more common in my experience. Way more common than the. Yours almost sounds idyllic.

Chris Lee [01:50:58] I think so.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:00] Yeah. I thought just her move to not only ask the question directly and to acknowledge a new reality you feel seen. We're going to just acknowledge what's here and then to ask a sincere question that shows an openness enough that you have this conversation through the night.

John Dehlin [01:51:23] Should I get a coffee maker? I mean said no believing ever.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:27] Really.

John Dehlin [01:51:28] I mean I, I'm exaggerating because there's always a bell curve.

Chris Lee [01:51:32] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:51:32] I'm just gonna say she's 99th percentile.

Mitch Hadfield [01:51:34] Yeah.

Chris Lee [01:51:35] She still gets on my case at my house. She makes me put the crack back private way. But like generally she's pretty good. And I don't want to omit our father in law too. Like we don't confront it directly as much. I don't think that's a little more

Mitch Hadfield [01:51:47] still, I think a literal believer maybe not as nuanced.

Chris Lee [01:51:51] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [01:51:51] But he has not, you know, said one thing negative to us. You know, we still talk sports. He's a temple worker and he missed his temple ship to come to our daughter's birthday party, which was very meaningful to us. So still, you know, we're still very much involved and you know, he'll ask about things and.

Chris Lee [01:52:09] Yeah. And I think we acknowledge that it's painful. Like it's not just us. Hey, validate us. You know, I've been quiet for so long. Talk to me about this and listen to me. But it's pain. It's painful for family, it's painful for my parents. I mean, I put this off. I felt guilty because I'm like, I've talked to my in laws before, my own parents about this because it's gonna hurt my mom. I mean, she's gonna internalize all this. Like, it's me, I did this, you know, which is, none of that's true. They were a positive influence and did what they should have and it was, I don't, I had a good experience, you know, so it's, it's hard to have these conversations. So it's amazing to have family that actually engage and it's fun. I actually enjoy talking about this stuff with family. Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:55] Yeah. Just, I'm so happy for your family. I'm happy to provide your in laws as positive role models. And I'm feeling the pain of all my listeners that are like, yeah, totally, it's been hell from that day forward. That's, you know, but, but I think it gives hope. It gives acknowledgment that there are good, reasonable, believing Mormon people. And I shouldn't act like that's rare, but it's my experience. But it should give people hope and hopefully provide a role model. If believing Mormons are watching and we know they are, do what their mother in law did.

Navigating Family Relationships Across Faith Differences

Mitch Hadfield [01:53:32] Yeah. Like even recently. So we had a, we recently had a baby, a new baby, our third. And our mother in law and father in law are going to watch our kids. And I, I didn't have this conversation directly, but my wife shared a conversation with her mom and her mom was like, hey, what if we have them on a Sunday? What do you want us to do? Like, we still want to worship, but like, you know, we don't want to necessarily take your kids to church if you're not okay with it. So that kind of means a lot. Like they're, you know, actively reaching out and I hope we are too, to respect their, you know, their wishes.

John Dehlin [01:54:01] Love it. I really, I want to have your mother in law and more Missouri, you guys are just.

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:07] No way.

John Dehlin [01:54:09] Maybe. Yeah. How to, how to treat your non believing family and friends. Bye.

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:14] That's right.

Chris Lee [01:54:15] Yeah, that's. That would be a fun series. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] If any of you, if you're, if their mom, if their mother in law won't come on. If any of you are watching and you have an in law or a parent who's been super good about your faith crisis, reach out to me. And if they'll come on Mormon stories, Margi and I will do that episode. Right, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [01:54:36] We will and we will treat Them so.

John Dehlin [01:54:39] Well, as good as we treated Patrick Mason or better. How's that?

Chris Lee [01:54:44] Well, and it's genetic because our spouses have been amazing. Oh yeah, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:47] So.

John Dehlin [01:54:49] So are you guys wanting or able to talk about where your spouses are, belief wise?

Chris Lee [01:54:54] Yeah, I can talk about that.

John Dehlin [01:54:55] Okay.

Chris Lee [01:54:55] I checked.

Mitch Hadfield [01:54:57] Yeah, them both.

Chris Lee [01:54:59] Yeah, go ahead.

Mitch Hadfield [01:55:02] Yeah, I guess one other thing that was very important to me was after I left we spent some time with a brother and sister in law, kind of in between both of us. And you know, I, we do a lot of sports together and we were in the car on our way, you know, to go shooting and he was like, hey, can I chat with you? And I was like, oh no. Like he's gonna, you know what's gonna happen? And he was like, hey, I noticed you said a couple things earlier,

John Dehlin [01:55:33] you

Mitch Hadfield [01:55:33] know, that were negative on the church. And I think he maybe knew that I was leaving at that point, but he's like, I don't really care. I just want to be your friend. And that meant a lot to me.

Mitch Hadfield [01:55:41] And he was genuine as well. Yeah, so that, that meant a lot. But as, as far as where my spouse is, she continued, you know, for the last year that I've, I've been out of the church to go to church.

Mitch Hadfield [01:55:57] Very much involved. She was, you know, led the singing, singing time for, for a while she would kind of take our kids every other Sunday. You know, as time has gone on, I think me stepping away and her continuing to go to church, she's noticed more things that bug her at church until, you know, maybe a couple months ago, we were chatting and she was like, I think when I have this baby, I want to take kind of a maternity leave from the church and decide if, you know, I still,

John Dehlin [01:56:34] you

Mitch Hadfield [01:56:34] know, want to be associated with the church. What my level of, you know, commitment was for the, you know, several months before giving having the baby, she was just going only to the hour of Sunday school because sacramenting became triggering to her.

Mitch Hadfield [01:56:53] And she then finally asked to be released. I think in part due to just because she was very pregnant and it was uncomfortable for her to be standing and teaching singing time. But I don't think our kids have been to church in the last six months.

Mitch Hadfield [01:57:09] And you know, she has shared a lot about this pregnancy has been really nice because she doesn't feel like she has to wear garments and she can kind of wear things that feel comfortable as a pregnant woman. And you know, she's, she's, she tried coffee kind of when I Did just to taste it. And she was like, I hate this. But like, ever since giving birth, she's been asking me to make her lattes. And every day she's like, it could do with less sweetener. It could have more coffee in it. Which is totally opposite from where she's been. So I'm like, yeah, yeah. Who is this lady anyway?

John Dehlin [01:57:41] Lattes are the one true beverage.

Mitch Hadfield [01:57:43] Yeah, that's right. I testify.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] Unless you're a believer and then that's totally okay. No, no pressure.

Chris Lee [01:57:50] Yeah. So. So my wife is currently the primary president and she just loves working with kids and that I think helps with some of her concerns. I would describe her as very nuanced and nuancing more. And we've had really open, good communication since we sort of started connecting. It's been so good. My middle Clara will be 8 next month and so we had a year to kind of, what are we going to do with the baptism? What do we do with this?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:29] That's a big one for people. Yep.

Chris Lee [01:58:32] And so we've been able to. Our kids are young enough. I have a 10 year old, an 8 year old and a almost 5 year old. Where we can. How do we map this out? And so, you know, we've tried to have these conversations, well, what do we do on Sundays? And it's a moving target, but we've found a lot of good common ground.

Chris Lee [01:58:53] They decide what they want to do every week. Initially it was, well, can we have them be doing something like churchy? And I was like, sure. And I was like, well, I don't know why, like how come they can be learning about like purity culture at church? And that's like somehow better than me playing a video game with them at home.

Chris Lee [01:59:15] And she's like, yeah, okay, I guess let's try to keep it even. And let's actually respect agency and choice and we'll give them choice. So she's been super good and we've been trying to, trying to meet up on how to do that with the kids and it's really lucky. She's been amazing with this and it's. I know it's been hard and it's easier, it's easier the more, you know, we light up on things.

Chris Lee [01:59:41] And we've been agreeing with, again, things with, with the kids. How do we want to raise them? How do we want to do this? And she's also been much more vocal in like word counsel and found her voice, which is awesome.

Chris Lee [01:59:58] So, yeah, I don't know if we want to get into the disciplinary council stuff. She went to bat for me. Whoa. Yeah, it's kind of new.

John Dehlin [02:00:08] Okay.

Chris Lee [02:00:08] I don't know if I put this in the thing, the outline for you to see, but it. I guess it is part of the question, like, how she's doing with this. Because we. We've been talking about. What are the. Someone's going to talk to you eventually about me. So what do we. What do you. You don't have to say anything for me. You. You can if you want. So we would kind of just go through scenarios, you know, and she came home. It was like, well, you made a

Mitch Hadfield [02:00:31] Tick Tock channel, right?

Chris Lee [02:00:32] Oh, yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [02:00:32] So I started posting some funny videos

Chris Lee [02:00:34] like a year ago.

Mitch Hadfield [02:00:35] So some humor that I make.

Chris Lee [02:00:36] They're just stupid memes, right? They're just funny and they're like PG13, you know, like, for like XMO stuff. And.

John Dehlin [02:00:44] What's your channel called? I need or do you not want to share?

Chris Lee [02:00:50] I don't know, actually.

John Dehlin [02:00:51] Okay.

Chris Lee [02:00:51] I might just delete it. Well, yeah, it was. It was very therapeutic. And we would send back for, you know, we would laugh about it. I've got like 1800 followers. Like, no, Nothing. Right. And so she comes home, she's like, two hours in a discipline or two hours in a ward Council. I was like, what's. You were gone a long time. She's like, the thing that you said was gonna happen, meaning that someone's gonna. The Bishop's gonna ask me about you. It did. It's like way worse than we thought. I was like, what are you talking about?

Mitch Hadfield [02:01:21] Because of the Tiktoks, right?

Chris Lee [02:01:22] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [02:01:22] Someone had seen it.

Chris Lee [02:01:25] Like a TikTok you made, which I think is. It's just a fun, funny, like, rock in a hat joke. That's very self deprecating to me. Someone saw it and then said something to the Bishop. Is this guy in your war? And he's like, yeah. And then. I don't know. I don't know how this all started. I'm like, maybe a little suspicious that that's how it happened, but. Because, you know, Tick tock, you have to kind of look for things, they don't just pop up anyway. And I like. I like my Bishop. He's a good guy. And I doubt he really wanted to be giving this information to Liz.

John Dehlin [02:01:58] Unless TikTok's algorithm has GPS built into it and they're serving Tiktoks, I don't know, people interested in Mormonism who live close to them. That's possible.

Chris Lee [02:02:08] It's. It could be you know, I don't know. But it went up to the stake president and he was just like, do you know what a disciplinary council is? She's like, yeah, what? So it's because of this TikTok.

John Dehlin [02:02:17] And so they're talking to your wife.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:20] About this Mary. Council for you.

Chris Lee [02:02:22] For you. Yep.

Mitch Hadfield [02:02:22] Because you kept your records in, right? I got mine removed.

Chris Lee [02:02:25] Yeah. I'm still. I'm still a member.

John Dehlin [02:02:26] Margi's making a face. Why Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:02:28] Interesting.

Chris Lee [02:02:29] That's what I thought.

Mitch Hadfield [02:02:31] What?

Chris Lee [02:02:32] The same face and the interesting reaction. It's like, what? So. And I said, I'm sorry. Like that happened. Like, you're in the middle of this. And I got a little upset. Like, I've heard from nobody for like a year.

Chris Lee [02:02:47] No elders corn presence. Like, hey, where you been? Which, okay, I actually like that. It's. Respect that and let me do my thing. But I'm like, now they're going to go through you. So it did kind of bother me a bit. And he, you know, and I'm gonna quote like, this is. This is the. The what he said. Like. And I think he was relaying this from the state president, like, we need to protect the good name of the church. And I'm like, ah, that. Like, you hear that? You hear that's a phrase. But like to say it like that. Right. And I think that kind of bugger like, oh.

Chris Lee [02:03:18] So it's like, that's what it's about, you know. And I. Nothing has happened. This was in July and I was kind of gearing up for this because he basically said if he doesn't stop making these, like, we're. It's probably gonna happen. So I think he was trying to just give her a heads up so it wasn't like two people show up to your door and hand you a summons or whatever they do.

Chris Lee [02:03:38] But she. She kind of went to bat for me, you know, and said, yeah, like, I. He shows me his tiktoks. He thinks they're hilarious. And sometimes I think I think they're funny. You know, his. His oldest help him make the one that you're talking about. And she said she had to actually explain like the joke, like, you know, the rock and the hat. He's like, like. And I don't know if he doesn't know that or just doesn't get the humor or whatever, but like, she had to explain it and it just made it this awkward interaction, you know, so. And I love this and I'm.

Chris Lee [02:04:12] She. I think she's okay with Me saying this, but at one point, you know, she said, I do not believe in a God who would separate a family eternally for a TikTok like that. And I think that's probably why nothing's happened yet, because they didn't anticipate that response. Who knows? This might change things.

John Dehlin [02:04:33] But you mean this interview?

Chris Lee [02:04:35] Yeah, we'll see. But I, I wonder if the taking the message further up is like, this might not be the best idea. It's just going to do more damage, you know, and we thought about it, you know, what, what do I do if this happens? Do I ignore it? Because do I care? No, no. Like, I'm still a member. Do I care if they ruin my name? Like, I guess, no. But yeah, I just was waiting and planning and I decided to. No, I am going to go in. If it happens, I will go in. And I kind of have a reason for going in and kind of explaining the scenario and being nice about it and everything.

Chris Lee [02:05:17] But it's also very awkward because there's people on my council that I work with at Snow. It's like, do you recuse yourself? Like, how does this work? And it puts them in a weird spot, you know, I feel bad for them too. But I mean, I, I don't know, it's like, am I revealing my strategy here? But maybe it's good for people to know if they're thinking about it.

Chris Lee [02:05:38] I. They have the right to do it and everything. I guess I just, I would, my, my goal would be just own it. I mean, if you're doing this for a TikTok, own it and like, sign this or let me record it. Because we live in a small town and I'm not putting my family through that. Because if you label it apostasy, like, no one's going to be like, oh, he probably made like an innocuous, semi funny tick tock that made fun, makes fun of himself and rocking a hat.

John Dehlin [02:06:06] They're going to think you've taken on a plural wife.

Mitch Hadfield [02:06:08] Yes.

Chris Lee [02:06:08] I mean, it's. Yeah. Down in Manti, right? Yeah, Yeah, I got fun with that. But anyway, yeah, I, I'm like, I can't do that. You know? Like, are they thinking about what that's going to do to my family who still goes to church, you know, So I just want, like, just sign here. This is why this is happening. It's for this Tick tock and then we'll be good. And I've been showing the Tick Tock to like active believing. Like, I have a friend in a Bishopric secretary guy. That's a different person. But I'll show people. They're like, oh, that's hilarious. And they're like active members. I'm like, yeah, should you excommunicate someone for that? They're like, what? I told my mom this last night. She's like, how is that any of their business? Right. So I don't know what's going on down there, but this is. Where again, is any from Ephraim.

John Dehlin [02:06:53] Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Chris Lee [02:06:55] So I. I mean, they say there's

John Dehlin [02:06:58] Bishop roulette, but there's, you know, if you're in Cambridge or Berkeley or Manhattan or Brooklyn, it's going to be very different than Ephraim, you know, or even Salt Lake City versus, like, Cache Valley or Provo or.

Chris Lee [02:07:11] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:07:12] Or, you know, Rigby. Yep.

Chris Lee [02:07:14] Yeah, exactly. And so. And. And she even said, like, if you do, I'll be your witness. Because, like, they just don't know any of your story. They don't know that between Facebook and Instagram, you don't do any of this stuff on those platforms. But you tell the algorithms to only go to people like you on TikTok because it's therapeutic. You're not allowed to feel validated at all. You know, we get to do it every Sunday, but you can't do it through this closed little channel of TikTok with like a measly a thousand followers. Right. And. And so I think it started to frustrate a little bit more. She thought about, like, they just don't know anything about you. So that's a ongoing thing, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:07:57] Although, you know, let's not minimize TikTok because you can have a thousand followers, but you can have one video get 100,000 views.

Chris Lee [02:08:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:06] It's like, well.

Chris Lee [02:08:07] And that went TikTok like the most I've ever had, which is like. Well, it was media. It was like 30,000 something views.

John Dehlin [02:08:13] Think about that. Like with. With a.

Chris Lee [02:08:15] With a.

John Dehlin [02:08:15] With the creation that creates a few minutes to create. Let's just say 30 minutes at the most. You're reaching 30,000 people with something so easily consumable. I mean, TikTok could be conceived as kryptonite for the Mormon Church.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:33] So John is definitely siding, I think, with your.

Chris Lee [02:08:37] I was like, they're, like, taking notes. All right, let's. This guy's out.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:41] Take him out and just maybe offer.

Chris Lee [02:08:44] He's like, I'm not so blamed for this. You come on this podcast and this is what does it.

John Dehlin [02:08:49] That's not what I'm trying to do. But I'm just trying to acknowledge that the church. I know, I know, but the church is in a world of hurt with Tick Tock.

Mitch Hadfield [02:08:55] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:56] Because. Because you know, a Mormon, a post Mormon, Tick Tocker can do one video and a million people see it. How do you reach a million people in. Right, you go 10, 20 years ago, no random Joe could, or Jane could reach a million people with a 5 minute, 10 minute creation with Tick Tock. You can.

Mitch Hadfield [02:09:15] That's right.

Chris Lee [02:09:15] Yeah. And if they're thinking about like that stick President Chris.

John Dehlin [02:09:19] Leave him alone. Leave him alone. It'll hurt you way more than I'll hurt him, I promise. And it'll hurt, hurt his kids and his wife and they don't deserve to be hurt. So. Freaking Stake President, take it from me, they excommunicated me. It's been a disaster for the church and my family in many ways. Don't do it. Walk away. Put it down. Put the gun down. Leave him alone.

Chris Lee [02:09:39] There we go. Damage control. Right? And there. If they view it like the way you are, then I totally understand. But I just, I make content for people like Mitch and people who have already, like, left. That's all it is. Right. And so it's very, it's very narrow part of my, my life. Right. It's just these fun little things. So, yeah, it's, it's odd. And I don't, I don't, I don't know. My state president, actually, I. Yeah, sure, he's a good dude, you know, I just don't know who he is. So we'll see. But my. All this is to say that Liz has been like.

Chris Lee [02:10:12] It could have been so much worse, right? I mean like you stop or I'm out. And yeah, all the stuff we've talked about. So yeah, our wives have been amazing with all of this super understanding. We're lucky, really lucky because a lot of people do not have that and it's hard to keep it in.

John Dehlin [02:10:32] Well, Margi's been really good about making sure that we don't give short shrift to the reconstruction part of our interviews. So Margi, we got. I hate to say we got about 15 minutes before I have to go run to a thing, but why don't you take over and let's. Let's do some reconstruction. Sure.

Rebuilding Identity and Marriage After Leaving the Church

Margi Dehlin [02:10:51] Okay, well, let me on the spot think of a question about rebuilding.

John Dehlin [02:11:00] You want me to jump in?

Margi Dehlin [02:11:02] Yeah, maybe.

John Dehlin [02:11:04] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:04] What would you ask?

John Dehlin [02:11:05] Okay, so it sounds like relationship. Like probably the biggest issue for people is reconstructing or salvaging or just grieving relationships with believing family and friends. And it sounds like neither of you are really put over the rack about believing family and friends. You've got pretty good relationships with your believing family and friends, which is pretty good, right?

Mitch Hadfield [02:11:31] I'd say for the most part, I don't have any contact with my immediate family. It's been a couple years for other reasons that we don't really need to get into. And I really haven't came out, I guess to any family on my side.

John Dehlin [02:11:43] That's called healthy boundaries.

Mitch Hadfield [02:11:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] With people that may not.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:45] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:11:46] It may not be constructive to share

Mitch Hadfield [02:11:48] with you, but I do have good relationships with still people on my side of the family. My grandmother has kind of been like a second mom to me, but I still haven't really come out as leaving the church to those people. But everyone on our side of the family, pretty good relationships.

John Dehlin [02:12:05] And that's totally valid to just decide you're not going to disclose because it wouldn't help them or it wouldn't help you or it wouldn't help the relationship. How about. And then the probably the companion issue is, is reconstructing your marriages now that they're built on different things. Sounds like you're both in pretty good places with your spouses. Anything you want to say in addition about, you know, because in the one case you got a mixed faith marriage. You do. Chris, Mitch, on the other hand, the foundation of your marriage has been kind of wiped away.

Mitch Hadfield [02:12:39] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:12:39] If the foundation was the church, is there anything you guys want to say about rebuilding the marriage?

Mitch Hadfield [02:12:44] I would say from my standpoint, it was pretty quick after I decided to leave the church that I decided I didn't necessarily find evidence for a higher power. You know, I did a lot of reading, you know, on evolution and on biology and on the age of the earth and things like that. And so, you know, regardless of maybe my wife's trending to not as a literal believer in the church, there has still been a riff on, you know, she does believe in higher power, and I don't really, you know, believe that. And so kind of as the church was wiped away, you know, we've had to do a lot of work and we've really talked a lot more than we ever have in our marriage before to just figure out who.

Mitch Hadfield [02:13:23] Who we are. Like, what does she. Like what do I. Like what does she believe? What do I believe? And we've really become very close in just kind of working through the muddiness of, you know, what do we want our life to be like now that there's not this, you know, covenant path checklist.

Mitch Hadfield [02:13:41] And it's been, it's been very beautiful. I feel like I've been able to be vulnerable with her and share my fears and share kind of hurts and she's been able to share and

Margi Dehlin [02:13:51] you

Mitch Hadfield [02:13:51] know, we don't believe the same things, but we really love each other. And I think a lot of the values that we still have are the same. You know, I still value my relationship with my wife in our marriage. I love my kids and I love spending time with them and being a dad. You know, I still still have a career that I care about and I guess just trying to rebuild that together, you know, after it's been been taken apart has been really hard. But it's also been beautiful because I feel like, you know, I feel like I know my wife in a deeper way that I hadn't before. And I feel like I've been able to open up and share a part of me that, that I wasn't able to share before.

John Dehlin [02:14:36] That's beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:37] I love that. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:14:39] What a. I mean some. I sometimes have said that a faith crisis can. It doesn't ruin a marriage, it doesn't save a marriage, it can just reveal a marriage.

Mitch Hadfield [02:14:50] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:14:50] And it sounds like for you, Mitch, faith crisis has allowed you to strengthen your marriage.

Mitch Hadfield [02:14:56] Yeah, it has.

John Dehlin [02:14:57] And even get to a better place than you were before. That's a great outcome. How about for you, Chris?

Chris Lee [02:15:02] Yeah, and it's. I'm trying to even think of like, do I apply the faith crisis label to me And I don't know if I do because it was so slow but acknowledging, you know, I'm I guess a non believing, non practicing Mormon, but I still love reading about Mormonism in different ways.

Chris Lee [02:15:22] So we are in different spaces. But I kind of agree and I. To add to that, it's been really fun, kind of and invigorating and just very positive to view this as an opportunity especially for our, for our kids because I. We're sort of leaning into like let's say that one of our kids has a question at the dinner table. This has happened too.

Chris Lee [02:15:46] And instead of the, well, we don't, like, we don't talk about that here or that's anti. Or you know, whatever this is. These are kind of cliche tropes. But it's. Well, here's what your mom thinks. Right. And we disagree. So then I'll tell you kind of what I think. And we'll both say that we don't know, and it's okay not to know and just model that. Like, multiple perspectives. Yeah. So there's not one or two or three. It's, you know, and then acknowledging, again, we're limited in different beliefs and views on certain things, so. And we don't agree, but, like, it doesn't matter. Like, it's.

Chris Lee [02:16:23] It's fine. And I'm hoping that that'll equip them intellectually, emotionally, to encounter things and be able to navigate those things without having meltdowns or getting defensive or having cognitive. All those problems that can result from these issues with faith and the whole thing.

Chris Lee [02:16:45] And if they decide, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go on a mission, I'm gonna do that, you'll be better for it because you'll actually have been exposed to my perspective growing up. So. Good. Right. I'm hoping it's not as, like, fragile or does that make sense, Viewing it as a positive thing for our kids. And we've already started this. My daughter, the other. A couple weeks ago, we were at a little coffee shop. She asked me, dad, is Satan real?

Chris Lee [02:17:14] And I'm thinking, like, what do I say to that? Because I want to be like, no, I don't think so. But I want to give her options. So I'm like, well, here's what, like, our church says and believes, and, you know, here's this option, and there's this option. Here's what I think. So I gave my opinion, but sort of more as an option, and said, but the fun part is you get to pick, and no one gets to tell you. And I might, like, make my case to you and try to persuade you and give you reasons as to why. I think it might be problematic to constantly think someone's looking over your shoulder to regulate your behavior.

Chris Lee [02:17:51] And she's all like, Santa. I was like, yeah, you're already getting this. But I'm. And I feel like I'm not ashamed of that. Like, I am giving my children options and trying to even acknowledge the limitations and my own views and letting them choose. So I think that's been a positive thing. And I don't know if I would have done that even, like, four or five years ago would have been, just keep them here. Like, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:23] I love so much about that, because what I hear is kind of asking them questions that they get to kind of decide for themselves. A lot of conversation and discussion as opposed to highly controlled environments where you have the answers and you're kind of telling them what. What to. I'm hearing just a lot of connection, exploration, and even embodying kind of differentiation and love so they don't have to fear that by being different or by holding a different opinion or belief that they won't be loved.

Chris Lee [02:19:00] Yeah. And rewarding them for asking a question like that, like, oh, this is fun. Let's talk about this instead of kind of punishing them. I think a lot of parents do that unintentionally. I know that there are a lot of, like, actively as families that are really good at this. Right. So I'm not saying that I hold a monopoly on, like, good parenting, you know, teaching your kids how to critically think. But. Yeah, so that's been a really, really fun kind of positive thing. It's exciting.

John Dehlin [02:19:26] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:27] All right. My rebuilding questions came to me. So one question I have is, you know, oftentimes amidst transition, certain areas of life are impacted. Right. So you've mentioned some parenting can be one marriage identity oftentimes is another one existential. Like the existential kind of those bigger questions. One question I have for you is, has there been a particular area for each of you that has been harder to rebuild or explore or if we're kind of looking at it in those. In those terms of areas that kind of get deeply impacted as we change or undergo some. A major, major transition in life?

Chris Lee [02:20:25] You thinking of anything?

Mitch Hadfield [02:20:26] You want to go first or.

Chris Lee [02:20:31] That's a good question. So I don't. I don't know where I stand on a deity. You know, I'm more and more kind of disinclined to believe in a Christian, anthropomorphic kind of God. Maybe. I don't know. I'm open to that, but sometimes it's hard to, you know, if I'm struggling with something and I'm alone and be like, oh, I don't know if I can just like, talk to a deity and just like, vent or ask for something. So reframing that is like, well, just think about it on your own and reflect and talk to yourself. Like, that can be hard.

Mitch Hadfield [02:21:14] Yeah, I think for me, it's been, you know, finding a purpose when I was very believing, you know, they, you know, you have a very strong purpose of, you know, you want to. You want to be eternally saved with your family, and you believe that's going to be a reality. And then when that comes crashing down and really also with that belief in, you know, maybe a God at all, it's hard to figure out, well, now what like, why am I here? Like, what is my purpose?

Mitch Hadfield [02:21:51] And so that's taken a long time to kind of work through it. I don't know if I'm 100 there, but kind of what I've come to, I guess, is, you know, I guess what I view as my purpose now is to, you know, enjoy every day, to be present with my family, to enjoy time with them, to enjoy my relationships, and just kind of live in the present. And that's what I have, and that's what I. You know, tomorrow's not guaranteed. And so just. Just, you know, coming. Coming to that kind of leaving the despair of, you know, we're on a floating rock that sparked a life billions of years ago.

Mitch Hadfield [02:22:33] And, you know, now. Now I'm here, but just enjoying what I do have and. And really trying to just love my wife and kids and just live every day. And. Anyway, have you.

Chris Lee [02:22:47] Have you found more meaning in things that you didn't really think about before or, like, even just enjoyment? Right.

Mitch Hadfield [02:22:55] Yeah, I. I think I feel more present because I feel like tomorrow's not guaranteed. There's no eternity promised to me to be with my family. You know, I've been trying to take off a little more time from work to be with my family. You know, things like that. Trying to be a little more focused on.

Chris Lee [02:23:11] Yeah, just like, the.

Mitch Hadfield [02:23:12] Enjoying the now. Not that I don't plan for the future. I still have a job. We still save. We still.

Chris Lee [02:23:17] Anyway.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:18] Yeah. Yeah, I so hear that. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Chris Lee [02:23:23] Yeah. And I'm just thinking, too, like, there. There are times when, like, a new song will show up in my. My itunes or something, and I'm like, oh, let's check this out. Or a book. And I do. I have found more enjoyment that someone, like, made this thing on their own for the benefit of other humans. I get it. They're getting paid stuff, but, you know, with art and literature and it. I have.

Chris Lee [02:23:54] You know, I already appreciate those things. It's a huge part of my career, but on a. On a weirdly deeper level that, oh, like, maybe we don't give God all the credit for, like, everything good that we have because people put in work, you know, and, like, scientists did a lot of. Did a lot of work, and maybe I can appreciate this more because we have somehow, like, figured out how to make this work so far, like, potentially without any guidance. And there's something beautiful about that. Right.

Chris Lee [02:24:28] So I have been able to find moments of, like, I'm actually appreciating this song with. With with more, you know, enjoyment than I might have otherwise.

Mitch Hadfield [02:24:37] And even. Even I remember just driving home from work after I lost my faith and looking at the person in the car next to me and no longer feeling like the hostility of, oh, that person might have a tattoo or, oh, they might drink coffee, but just thinking, you know, they're just like me on this little rock living their life and. And I don't know, like, feeling a love for. For everyone. I. Or just like, I don't know, not feeling a boundary there and just conditions. Okay. They're just like me, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:04] Yeah.

Chris Lee [02:25:06] Which is another positive with our kids.

Mitch Hadfield [02:25:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:08] Yeah.

Chris Lee [02:25:08] Like, it's. It's such a relief that there are certain things that aren't going to be deal breakers for my children, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:15] Yeah. That makes so much sense, you know, for each of you, in thinking about this internal process change, has it been kind of on your own or have there been resources, thinking of books, podcasts, practices, whatever. It will be that for you have been particularly. They could be comforting things. They could be formative to thought, to new thoughts. Do you have anything in particular that sticks out?

Finding Community, Meaning, and New Foundations

Mitch Hadfield [02:26:02] I think for me, there have been several things that have been helpful. I really look forward to spending time with family. You know, just even. Even calling or chatting with Chris has been. Has been helpful for me to have someone else who's kind of going through it or gone through it.

Mitch Hadfield [02:26:16] Podcasts were really helpful, especially the beginning. I think I consumed more. I. I still do listen to some podcasts, but it's not, you know, it's not every day as frequent as it was when I was just kind of in the depths of, you know, what, you know, where am I at? You know, John's podcast, this podcast, Bill Real and RFM's podcast was helpful.

Mitch Hadfield [02:26:35] Meditation has been really helpful for me. That's a practice that, you know, just kind of mindfulness has really helped me just connect to myself and to the present. That's been very impactful. And then my wife's been very supportive and open to talk and listen and. Yeah, I think those are a couple things.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:57] Yeah, brilliant.

Chris Lee [02:26:59] I mean, similar with me, but relationships with other people. I. I have really good friends now. I always have, but especially just moving into an area. We've been there about three years in Ephraim. I made really good friends, and it's nice to just that why do I need a lot more than this? You know, I love my job. You know, I have an amazing family.

Chris Lee [02:27:27] This is just enjoying. I know it's just cliche. We're not saying anything new here, but like enjoying simple things that I might not have otherwise enjoyed because I was focused on this other, these other things I was supposed to be doing. So.

Chris Lee [02:27:48] And I'm, I'm lucky in that I think I can open a book and sit on my porch and have like a Coke and just be like, this is like a very enjoyable experience. Why, why do I need more than this? You know, so I'm gonna say that's like my new religion or something. But I've been able to enjoy more of those things and, and I guess give myself permission to do that. Like, you shouldn't feel guilty. Like, you're not wasting time. And that can be hard for people. Like, oh, I'm playing this video game with my kids and they're watching me and we're laughing and this is why.

Chris Lee [02:28:24] Why do I feel like, no, we need to get off this and we need to go do this other thing. And, and so it helps it. For me, it's helped to sort of abandon a lot of the kind of rat race stuff that. And of course, like, that was my experience, you know, with the whole mission thing. Like, yeah, keep going, keep going, keep going. Okay, I have kids. Keep going. Now you got, now you got other people to worry about. So you got to do more, you know, and giving myself permission to just, just enjoy this. Let's go, let's travel more, let's go do more things.

Chris Lee [02:28:51] Just. We live in Utah. There's so many things you can do are an hour from my house. So yeah, so I don't have a silver bullet. But like those, those things have helped me.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:59] I love that, I love that shift away from. I mean, we could call it a lot of things. We could call it like culturally it's hustle, you know, and then religion wise, it's almost like this sense of endure, like duty, endure all that to enjoy. And that's, that is, that's a, that's a big, beautiful shift in how you kind of engage life and engage each moment. All right, one final. You kind of answered this, but I'm kind of curious if there's anything else you want to add. You know, on some level who you are now may not be something that you planned for. Like if you had told yourself your, your 16 year old selves or your 18 year old selves, you be here, that this would be your life. What surprises you about being here? What does it feel like to be you in this moment now?

Mitch Hadfield [02:30:03] I think kind of when we were in the married ward, we Saw a lot of couples leave the church. And I, we would. You know, we'd tell ourselves in our marriage, like, hey, if we just keep going to church, this will never be us. We just keep believing. And now, you know, now it is.

Mitch Hadfield [02:30:19] I think. I think what would really surprise myself back then is that, you know, I genuinely feel like I'm a good person. You know, I'm not perfect. You know, I don't think anybody is, but, you know, I'm taking care of my kids. You know, I'm going to work. I'm, you know, supporting my wife. I'm, you know, enjoying life. Like, you know, like, nothing has devastatingly gone wrong in my life. I'm not some terrible person like I thought I might have been without the time, church.

Mitch Hadfield [02:30:50] And, you know, I think I would be surprised to learn that a lot of the. A lot of the goodness that I had in my life before was from me and not from some, you know, like, Holy Ghost or higher.

Mitch Hadfield [02:31:02] Higher power making me good. And then everything bad was me. Like, I was the combination of, you know, the positives and negatives and just to learn that, you know, I'm doing okay and I'm happy and I'm enjoying life and. Yeah, I think that's what I would say.

John Dehlin [02:31:20] You're not hustling for worthiness or love.

Mitch Hadfield [02:31:22] Yeah, and I don't need to. I'm. I'm beautiful the way I am. I deserve love. I'm, you know, I'm at heart, a good person, you know, with or without the church.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:33] Yeah. And there's joy.

Mitch Hadfield [02:31:35] There is. And there's lots of joy. There is. You know, I just. We just welcomed a new baby into the world a couple days ago. Just how beautiful that was, you know,

Chris Lee [02:31:45] anyway, and just from my point of view, like, I'm like, oh, this is Mitch. This is who you are. Like, who. Who knew that you had an amazing sense of humor? Like, I didn't. You were. It's like you were kind of limited before, and it's beyond just that. But how. It's your, like, your actual self. I feel like, from. From my perspective, having known you coming into the family. So just. I can confirm that, like, from my perspective, too.

Mitch Hadfield [02:32:17] And also for me, like, fully able to, like, embrace you, how you are, you know, and not, you know, no bars held. You know, there's not some weird theory you have. It's like actual true history. And, you know, anyway, I've. And I've always admired the critical thinking and conversations, but to be able to fully.

Chris Lee [02:32:34] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [02:32:34] Be there with you.

Chris Lee [02:32:36] Yeah. And I'll just say real quick that I. I just feel like life gets better and better. My marriage has never. It's the best it's ever been in every possible way. And if my wife was right here, sitting here, she would absolutely agree with that. And I'm pretty sure that's one of the things she told my bishop, is like, you do not need to worry about us. We are better than we've ever been.

John Dehlin [02:33:00] That's the last thing a bishop was to you.

Chris Lee [02:33:03] Well, you don't need me, though. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:33:05] That's the most friendly thing you could tell a leader.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:08] And we always want to tell bishops what is most comforting for them to hear.

Mitch Hadfield [02:33:12] Yeah, that's right.

Chris Lee [02:33:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:14] I'm.

Chris Lee [02:33:14] I'm. It's. Yeah. It's just better. So. Yeah, I'm happy. It's great.

John Dehlin [02:33:23] Yeah. Great questions, love. I'm gonna. I. I don't know why I ever ask questions. You should just ask all the questions.

Chris Lee [02:33:31] I know. You made a thing. We were, like, paused for a minute. Like, how do I.

John Dehlin [02:33:36] Anyway. Well, Chris and Mitch, we could have gone slower and taken twice the time, and I still would have felt like it was valuable. We had to compress today into four or five hours just because we've got a lot of stuff going on. But I'm. You know, I almost canceled this morning because I had a tickle. I have a tickle in my throat. But I'm so glad we didn't. I'm sorry it took so long for us to actually schedule this. How long did it take us? I don't know.

Chris Lee [02:34:00] We started talking, like, February,

John Dehlin [02:34:04] but y' all were patient. For those of you who I promise to do an interview with Mormon stories, Chris will tell you if you hang in there, it'll happen because there's probably, like 10,000 people. I've said, come on. Mormon stories, and then I never followed up. I'm sorry. Anyway, I am so glad. You both are lovely. You're both wise.

Mitch Hadfield [02:34:21] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [02:34:22] I want to meet your spouses. I want to meet your mother in law. Maybe your father in law. I'm just kidding.

Chris Lee [02:34:27] Of course.

John Dehlin [02:34:27] Your. Your parents in law. And I'm just grateful for your vulnerability, for your wisdom, for your personalities, and for modeling health and hope and happiness and joy for those who decide to leave. They can know that there's joy in store for them. And I can't thank you enough for speaking up.

Chris Lee [02:34:50] Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Mitch Hadfield [02:34:51] I appreciate it.

Chris Lee [02:34:52] It's been a privilege and a blast to be here.

John Dehlin [02:34:54] Chris's. Take President.

Chris Lee [02:34:56] Yeah, that's right. One more time.

John Dehlin [02:34:58] Don't do it.

Chris Lee [02:34:59] Yeah, I'll do it.

John Dehlin [02:35:01] Do you recognize that? Mitch Dikembe.

Chris Lee [02:35:03] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [02:35:04] Mutumbo.

John Dehlin [02:35:05] Yeah. Okay. All right. And Margi, thanks for being co host.

Reflections, Gratitude, and Closing Thoughts

Margi Dehlin [02:35:09] I'm so glad. I love you here. Thank you both for your stories.

John Dehlin [02:35:13] Yeah.

Mitch Hadfield [02:35:13] Thanks for listening.

Chris Lee [02:35:14] Yeah, I'm glad you were here, too.

John Dehlin [02:35:16] All right, well, thanks, everyone, for joining us on Mormon Stories. Please Support us@mormonstories.org Click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. Follow us on all the social medias. Share this with everyone. You can email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com. be kind to each other, be good to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

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