Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 123

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive and to help me make it through grad school. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org teach me to walk in the light of his

Jacque [00:00:18] love Teach me to pray to my father above Teach me to know all the things that are right

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Teach me,

Jacque [00:00:39] teach me to walk.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] This is Mormon Stories. I'm John Dehlin. Today we have with us a very close and personal friend of mine. Her name is Jackie. Jackie, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Jacque [00:00:52] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] For my listeners, just to give a little bit of introduction, Jackie is actually one of the main inspirations, along with her wonderful husband, for me bringing back Mormon Stories podcast. And it began with an email that I received several months ago, and it had to do with Jackie, who is still a believing member of the LDS Church, discovering that her husband had lost his faith. And so the purpose of this podcast is to provide a first case study in what happens when one member of a couple loses their faith. And in this instance specifically, we're going to be talking about it from the faithful spouse's point of view. And we're going to talk about what it's like to be the person who is a believer when their spouse loses their faith. We're going to talk about how it feels, how hard it is, what the challenges are. We're going to talk about maybe a little bit about how not to react when that happens, maybe some ways where reactions can be harmful and damaging. And we're going to talk about maybe some lessons that can be learned to make not only the transition easier, but to help make the marriage strong and maybe potentially even stronger than it was before one of the members of the couple lost their faith. So that's a big, lengthy introduction. Again, Jackie, thank you so much for being willing to join us.

Jacque [00:02:42] It's my pleasure.

Jacque's Original Email and Background

John Dehlin [00:02:44] So why don't we begin with the original email that you sent me on, oh, I don't know, May 28, 2009.

Jacque [00:02:56] Okay. And I've got them both up here. Do you want me to talk about the very first one where I found you?

John Dehlin [00:03:07] Start with that one.

Jacque [00:03:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Yeah.

Jacque [00:03:09] And I just say, hello, John, I was wondering if you know of any.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Just read it like you were really narrating it.

Jacque [00:03:15] I was wondering if you know of any sites where I might find other believing LDS people who have a spouse that is going through a serious trial of faith. I need to talk to someone. I can't talk to my family or LDS friends and my non LDS friends would not understand what I'm going through. Thank you for the link to Stay lds, which I had gotten off of Mormon Stories website. It's probably going to save my marriage. Any info you could give me would be greatly appreciated. Please do not post this communication anywhere.

John Dehlin [00:03:47] Sincerely, Jackie.

Jacque [00:03:49] Yes, okay.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] So Jackie, first question. What was it like to reach out to a complete and total stranger on the Internet with one of the most intimate and scary and important sort of moments, maybe in your married life? Like, was that bizarre? Was it difficult? And why would you approach a total stranger?

Jacque [00:04:14] Well, I, I felt like I had no choice. I was desperate. Obviously I was quite frightened and this all was very new to me. I began searching immediately. I knew that my husband had found the information that he was basing his decisions in life. He had found them online. And I decided that I needed to go there and try to almost retrace his steps to find out what he was reading and who was influencing him. And I found actually a cacophony of information on the Internet, some of it outright. It was to me seemed very anti Mormon and hateful. Some of it was faithful LDS people, apologetics types that were defending the church and then other people who were very critical of anybody that was doubting the church. And I, I was just confused and I stumbled across Mormon stories and saw your name and started doing as much research as I possibly could about who you were. Found a way to get your email address and emailed you because you were the only voice that I had found online that was open to maintaining some type of membership in the church while allowing for a person that was doubting to have a place at the table, so to speak. And I had already been through a very intense weekend with my husband and I needed to be able to talk to somebody and obviously could not talk to my, my close family members or friends in the church. It was just too, it was surreal to me and I did not have any idea how they would take it. So I, out of desperation, I contacted a stranger, which I guess is what you're never supposed to do.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Let's back up for a second. Now that we kind of have the introduction. Tell us about your, you know, give us just an overview of your upbringing in the church and you know, what the church has meant to you and, and what your testimony is rooted in.

Jacque [00:06:54] Okay. Well, I was born in the church. My parents both came from pioneer stock. I have polygamy, both pre manifesto and post manifesto on both sides of my family. My father was not active when he married my mother. They were Married civilly. And they, you know, they did not plan that he would ever be active, but after the birth of their first child, he decided that that's something he wanted to do. He became active in the church and from that point served in bishoprics, high council positions and was a bishop twice served a adult mission and is a temple worker, that sort of thing. I've got, obviously, big Mormon family with three brothers and a sister. All of my siblings have been married in the temple. And so we would be considered like your typical Mormon family, except that my. The extended portions of my family on both my mother and father's side, very not typical, mostly inactive or not part of the church at all. And we have every type of family grouping that you can imagine from couples that cohabitate. I have a cousin who is gay and has been with her partner for over 30 years. And somehow our little Mormon family was able to survive all of these different variations on a theme, so to speak. And so I grew up in an environment of openness and that, look, this is our family and we love them and it doesn't matter what they think or do, you can never lose your family. Basically, that this is who we are and we love each other. And so that was the environment that I came from. And when I met my husband, he was not a member. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] Is your, is your testimony rooted in. And you don't have to get into specifics, but would you say that your testimony is rooted in strong spiritual manifestations?

Jacque [00:09:23] Oh, absolutely, I think I should.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] What are the anchors of your faith? Let's just say.

Jacque [00:09:30] Well, I would say that the number one anchor of my faith is a situation that occurred in our family that when my brother was a toddler, just barely speaking, he came to my parents, and without getting into too many of the intimate details, he basically described the ceiling ceremony of when my parents were sealed in the temple along with my brother, who was sealed to them at the time. And he described being there and described the attire that is worn there, which for a toddler, barely speaking, there's no reason for him to have ever seen any of it. And so for whatever reason, whether it be that the Mormon Church is one of the ways that God manifests himself in this earth, I don't know what the reason is, but it was important enough for the children, or at least some of the children, to be there to view that particular ceremony. And since my parents were married outside of the temple and no mention is ever made of that ceremony, for some reason, this particular sealing ceremony was very important. And no other church on this earth offers it. And so even with all of the many issues that there can be with some of our history, I remain a believer. I have some very specific reasons to believe, and that's one of them.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Thank you. Okay, so you were going to talk about your husband and his faith journey a little bit. Yeah.

Eric Joins the Church and Their Early Marriage

Jacque [00:11:25] When I met my husband, he was not a member, and my parents were a little bit nervous about it, but they liked. They liked my husband and they prayed about it and they just felt at ease that everything was going to be okay. And my husband did start to express a desire to know more about the church. He was sort of going through a spiritual awakening in his own life because he had grown up in a home that was atheistic and he had friends that were lds. And so he had already had some of that influence in his life. And when he told me that he wanted to start to find out about the church, I had to back off a bit and say, okay, that has to be separate from our relationship. And so I gave him a Book of Mormon and the phone number for the missionaries. And then I sort of bowed out of the picture for a while while he worked through what he wanted to do. And he did decide to be baptized. He is not what I would consider to be an emotion driven person. He is a very logical person, and the church made sense to him. The things that were taught made sense. And so he decided to join. He joined the church and my father ordained him to be a priest. And it went from there. Now his actual lineage is lds. He comes from a pioneer stock family out of southern or south central Utah. And so. But his father left the church and so for his grandparents to see him be baptized, it was, you know, they considered it to be a miracle. And we were married civilly shortly after he joined the church.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] Okay, great. And you eventually. You were eventually sealed in the temple?

Jacque [00:13:30] Yes, About a year and a couple of months after we were married, we went through the temple and were sealed.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] How was that?

Jacque [00:13:43] I think that it was difficult for my husband. He. He did not enjoy the experience in the temple. I think it was shocking for him. So different than anything that. That he had experienced because we went through in 88 before some of the changes. For me, it was sort of a whirlwind day, and I was just trying to take everything in. But I was happy to be sealed to my husband because we were expecting our first child in about three months after that. So it made me happy that we were going to be sealed before our child was Born.

Eric's Crisis of Faith Begins

John Dehlin [00:14:26] And how many years were you married with Eric? Sort of happily a member before his crisis of faith?

Jacque [00:14:37] 22 years.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] So you had 22 years of marriage where he was faithful and active in the church? Pretty much.

Jacque [00:14:45] Oh, yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] Okay. And was he pretty happy with his membership through that time?

Jacque [00:14:52] I think that he was happy with his membership in the sense that he was busy in the church, always doing something. I think that he never felt a part of the culture. He didn't serve a mission in elders quorum when they would say, okay, we need mission experiences. He would have nothing to relate. He did not have any primary memories to pull from or mutual. And so I think that for him, he never assimilated into the culture. And that made it difficult for him because he would ask questions in gospel doctrine class, and he was sort of treated like, well, duh, you know, you should know this, that kind of a thing. And so he stopped asking questions in gospel doctrine class. And the last. I would say the last three years, I think he would find every reason that he could to just not go to gospel doctrine class. It was not a comfortable place for him.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Sure. But would he have characterized himself as having a testimony, even. Even, you know, in the more recent years?

Jacque [00:16:09] I think that he would always characterize himself as having a logical testimony.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] Right.

Jacque [00:16:15] Everything. Everything about the church made sense to him.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] Right.

Jacque [00:16:19] And. But I would not say that he was ever having a confirmation from the Holy Ghost about the Book of Mormon, that sort of a thing. But everything made sense to him. All of these pieces fit together. It answered all the questions that he had, and that was important to him because he's, like I said, he's a logical person.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Sure. Okay, so why don't you tell us about what led to that fateful day when you and your husband had that talk?

The Night Eric Shared His Doubts

Jacque [00:16:54] Well, it was a Friday. I came home from work, and my husband often leaves work early on Friday, tries to wrap things up during the week. So he was already home. And I came into the house and I sat down and he had his laptop on his lap on the sofa, and he was crying, which is very unusual for my husband because he does not weep easily. And so were you just saying he

John Dehlin [00:17:26] was analytical and kind of.

Jacque [00:17:28] Yeah, exactly. And so I knew something terrible was going on because my husband just does not cry. And I asked him what was wrong, and he said, nothing, Nothing's wrong. Let's just have a good weekend. And I figured that he was angry at me, I had done something and I was upset, and I said, look, I can't have a weekend with this. I'm going in the bedroom. He came in and he basically said, I can talk to you. I don't want to say this. I can't do this. I need to do this. It was just the struggle going on inside of him was just like playing out on his face. And he was having a complete emotional breakdown. And he just blurted out to me that. He just said the church isn't true. And I didn't know if I had heard him correctly. I'm like, what? And he's like, the church isn't true. I found all this information. It's a lie. I don't know what to do. And then he just started sobbing and I was just. I was floored. And I let him sort of unload the information that he. Not. Not all the detailed information from the Internet, but what was in his heart that was like trying to get out at that moment and where he was at from a belief perspective. And he. I think he was very shocked by my response. I would say that my response was definitely not something that I'm proud of. I would not consider it to be empathetic or Christ. Like, I was angry and I was very hurt. I think that my fight response came up and I was trying to protect myself. I had so many thoughts just racing through my head, all based in fear for my own welfare instead of my husband suffering. But I was angry and shocked and I just couldn't believe any of this was happening. So I think that my husband had thought that he was going to tell me all this, show me this information, and I was going to agree with him and that we were going to go waltzing out of the church, you know, hand in hand with flower petals being. Being strewn along the path.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] Not quite.

Jacque [00:20:17] No, not quite. And I gotta tell you something. I was just. I felt wounded and betrayed, I guess. Is that. Is that the best way to describe it? I really felt betrayed by him and that he had somehow, you know, walked away from. From our vows. And now looking back, of course I. I see that, you know, he also felt betrayed. He felt betrayed by what he had been taught for all the time that he had been in the church. So we stayed up most of the night talking. I grabbed my car keys. I thought I was going to leave, but I'm just not a leaver. I came back and I was angry and we, you know, went back and forth for a while and then we just sat on the bed and we talked and we talked most of the night. I was angry, but I Let him lay his head on my lap and just sort of have some. Some tenderness between us because somehow we had to get rid of the anger. So we. That we talked most of the night and we finally, I guess, tried to go to sleep. I don't know if he ever went to sleep. I know that I didn't. But I looked at the alarm clock and it was six in the morning. And I said, I. I'm going to go to the temple. And so I got up and I took a shower and grabbed my temple bag and I went to the temple. And I, you know, I like the temple because I really enjoy ritual, and I like the temple because I can go through it and keep up with everything because I know it's going to happen. But at the same time, I can be pondering things that I need to ponder, right? And I was just praying. I was like, heavenly Father, this. What am I? How. Whoa. I just. I could not even gather my thoughts to have a coherent prayer. But I believe that, you know, God would understand whatever I was trying to convey to him. And I got the distinct impression that I was not to abandon my marriage, that I was to stay married. And interestingly enough, I had these visual images in my head over and over again of our wedding day, which was not a temple marriage. It was a civil marriage. And I just remembered and could see in my mind taking those vows and that I had taken a vow. I had promised that I would love him and cherish him and stay together for better or worse. And I figured that nothing could be worse than this. And so I left the temple with the resolve to save my marriage. And of course, my initial response was that in order to save my marriage, I had to find a way to convert my husband back to Mormonism. And that is what started my search online to try to find a way to convince him that he was wrong and bring him back into the fold.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] How'd that work?

Jacque [00:23:57] That did not work.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] So did you start looking up the materials that he had been talking about?

Jacque [00:24:06] I did. I started looking up some of the things that he had been talking about. I. Some of the sites that I would pull up. I did not stay there. I felt like they were damaging to me emotionally, so I better not stay there. I did my best to have an open mind for where he was coming from, but at the same time, I was trying to see everything through the filter of the. This is true. Our church has the most truth. And I never believed in my life that our church was the only true church on the face of the earth. I just never believed that because I had friends who were every different faith, and they were such great people that I knew that ours couldn't be the only true church. And I have been in St. Peter's on a Sunday and attended mass and felt the spirit very strongly. And so I. I just could never believe that. We had, you know, the market cornered on truth. But nevertheless, it was my. You know, I was seeing everything through the filter of, well, this is true. And so I've got to find a way to show him. I started to find by reading apologist sites that, hey, a lot of this stuff is true. And his concerns.

Confronting Difficult Truths About Church History

John Dehlin [00:25:34] A lot of his concerns were true.

Jacque [00:25:36] Absolutely. Absolutely. And some of the things that were true were disturbing, and I didn't even know how to tackle that. And all of this was happening over this first weekend. And that's when I went to work on the following. I think it was a Tuesday. I started trying to find someone I could contact for help. I didn't want to talk to or email any of the people that I'd found up to that point because they were. Some of the people had such vitriol towards people who doubt. And then there were other people who were filled with hate for the church.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] Why not your parents?

Jacque [00:26:24] Well, this is gonna sound crazy, but I did not know how to tell them. I thought that, A, it would break their hearts, B, it would change their opinion of the person that I loved most in the world, and C, I was afraid that there would be some sort of a confrontation between my husband and my father or my. One of my brothers that would force me to take a side emotionally, that I felt that that was a dangerous situation for me, that I did not want my family to be on one side or the other with me and my husband. I wanted it to be my husband and I together and us trying to figure this out together. I just didn't want my family dragged into it in a way that could either damage their faith or cause this horrible conflict. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:27:43] Sure. That makes sense. Well, why not your bishop, then?

Jacque [00:27:47] Well, because I was afraid that

John Dehlin [00:27:52] my

Jacque [00:27:52] husband would be in some sort of trouble from a discipline perspective with the church. I was afraid that since I was sympathetic towards my husband, that I could either lose my temple recommend or be excommunicated because I did not know. I'd never even heard the term disaffected before. I didn't even know that there were people that didn't believe but stayed in the church. I mean, I didn't know any of this stuff. I didn't even know that there were Mormon websites.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] Right.

Jacque [00:28:32] I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Sure.

Jacque [00:28:34] And so I truly felt alone. And. And I know that, you know, looking back, that's how my husband felt too.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Right. So. So somehow you found my. My email address and emailed me, Right?

Jacque [00:28:56] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] Why don't you. Why don't you jump to that second email that you. That you sent me after we made that initial contact. The one that just starts with thank you.

Jacque [00:29:11] Which part do you want me to read?

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Oh, wait, wait a minute. Sorry. Start. Yeah, yeah. The first big email that you sent me that starts with thank you for emailing me and just, just read the whole thing. It's okay.

Jacque [00:29:24] Okay. Hi, John. Thank you for emailing me. This is all very new for me. Just happened last Friday night. So I have been desperately searching for a way to have some hope. My husband is currently of the mind that the Church is false and that Joseph Smith was a fraud who did many evil things. He has tried to share these with me, but I have asked him not to. The days since have been spent trying to find a way to save our marriage of almost 22 years. He said he would be willing to live a lie if I would not take the children and leave. I do not want to leave, nor do I want him to live a lie. I am hoping that his position will soften with time because a lot of this information is coming from anti Mormon sources. I do accept that Joseph Smith was not perfect. So I started looking for ways to survive this crisis. I found Mormon stories which led me to stay lds. It is helping us in so many ways, especially my husband. He now feels that he can be a cafeteria Mormon and I can accept that. He is finding much solace in the postings on the site because he realizes he is not alone. For this, I am very thankful because I love my husband and do not want him to suffer. My problem is that the only online stuff I can find is for people who are doubting or have already left the church or hate the church or hate the people that are questioning the church. I'm just a little Mormon girl who has always believed the Church is true. I have never gone searching for reasons to doubt. I don't want to. I trust that God will answer all questions one day. I am willing to wait. I just know that I love my religion and I love my family. I want to be with them forever. But now I am just trying to save my marriage. In this life, eternity will have to wait and I am hoping that My faith in eternal marriage will be enough for both myself and my husband. So I was wondering how couples make this all work on Stay lds, I can only find postings by people within that community. I would like to hear from their spouses. Are any of them doing what I am doing? Are they afraid like me? I have a thousand questions. Who is going to call me forth at the resurrection if my husband never softens his position? Will my children still be sealed to me? Can I lose my children because my husband has made these choices? Can I even attain exaltation without him? Does being married to him and being willing to accept him as a possible apostate mean that I cannot have a temple recommend? I don't want to be excommunicated, but I cannot and will not abandon my marriage. My husband is a good man and I love him. I want him. Is it possible for me to have him and my church? I'm sorry to take up so much of your time, but I didn't know who else to contact.

Reaching Out for Help and Early Conversations

John Dehlin [00:32:08] Thank you for reading that. So what was the first conversation that we had? Was it with you and Eric together?

Jacque [00:32:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] Wasn't that hilarious? Tell our listeners sort of the setup for that conversation.

Jacque [00:32:26] Well, we.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] First you have to explain to Eric that you had contacted some random guy, right?

Jacque [00:32:33] Yes. And that was quite a surprise for him. He was pretty shocked and he did not know who you were, of course, and he wanted to make sure that nobody was going to try to reconvert him. And we. Yes, I think he was definitely shocked that I was talking to some stranger. He had no idea that I had been emailing with you. So we set up a time where we could talk and we didn't want our kids to hear conversation. And so we drove to a secret location and used my husband's cell phone and had a wonderful conversation with you where I know there was tears shed. I know they were probably mostly mine. I think that for the first time in days, my husband felt hopeful and so did I. And it was so great to have that conversation with you. And the relationship, you know, basically grew and developed from there where you were helping us sort of figure things out. And I know that there were many conversations, but that initial one was a lifesaver.

John Dehlin [00:33:57] So it was very. I just have to say it was very hard for me because on the one hand, I had to speak in a way that would make Eric feel safe and validated so that he wouldn't feel like I was trying to convert him and so that he would feel like I understand his Issues. I remember him wanting to have me sort of validate some of the historical things so that you could know that these issues really were big problems. And so I had to speak in a way that would help him feel safe, but then I had to speak in a way that wouldn't totally freak you out and scare you and make you feel like I wasn't out to jump on his side and wreck your marriage. And that's a really tricky conversation to have, I bet.

Jacque [00:34:49] I'm sure that for you it was extremely difficult, because at that point, I would say that Eric and I were about as far apart from an opinion perspective and a belief perspective as we possibly could have been. And so. And I was in a very fragile state. I was crying non stop. I was crying at work, I was crying at home. So I know that my husband was extremely worried that, you know, that there was going to be tragedy ensuing because he had read exit stories online of people that when they left the church, men had come home from work and the ward had moved the wife and family out while the husband was at work. And I know that he feared that from the beginning. And so it was difficult for him to tell me in the first place. And for you to be able to use language that was validating towards Eric, but also protective of me, I thought was a difficult line to walk. But you did a good job.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Well, Eric was. Eric, his parents had both passed away at that time, is that right?

Jacque [00:36:08] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] Yeah. And so he, you and you and your children were really literally the only immediate family he pretty much had.

Jacque [00:36:17] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] And so he was petrified that he was going to lose his wife and kids and be left with nothing.

Jacque [00:36:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] That must be terrifying.

Jacque [00:36:28] Oh, absolutely. I can't imagine that.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Right. So after that initial conversation, tell us about your ups and downs and your journey and whether you went through different phases to try and find some type of balance or harmony or, you know, understanding.

Navigating Belief Differences Within the Marriage

Jacque [00:36:53] Oh, absolutely. When. When Eric first told me about his change of beliefs, I know he was afraid. Like you just said, he was afraid he was going to lose everything that was important to him. And he promised me that he was going to, you know, be this cafeteria Mormon. He was going to stay plugged in. Nothing was going to change in our lives. He would.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] What do you mean by cafeteria Mormon? Just so our listeners know.

Jacque [00:37:23] Well, I had never heard of it, but when I read your article of how to stay in the LDS Church after a trial of faith, the term was in there of a cafeteria Mormon. And basically it means picking and choosing those Things of the gospel and of basically of Mormon culture that work for you. And like, if you're going through a cafeteria line and you pick the things that you want and you don't pick the things that you don't want. And it resonated with me because I think that that's how most Mormons are and I think that's how most religious people are in general.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] But let me back up for a second because there was a time where I considered myself to be ultra orthodox and that term would have been offensive to me. And I know that the term is very offensive to people who are still very strong traditional believers. Let me just make something clear. Just this week, someone sent me an email saying I'm encouraging people to break the commandments. First of all, I've always done my best to live the commandments regardless. I've still never broken the word of wisdom. I've been faithful to my, to my wife. I, you know, continue to pay tithing, I serve in callings. Like, for me, being a cafeteria Mormon had nothing to do with, like, not wanting to obey the commandments. I love the commandments personally. For me, cafeteria Mormon was about certain beliefs that I, that I had to let go of or at least that I could no longer claim as being true. So like, for me, questions about the historicity of the Book of Mormon led me to just say, I don't know if the Book of Mormon is historical. I have to let that go for now. Or, you know, section 132 of the doctrine and Covenants with polygamy. I just don't know if that section is something I can believe in anymore. So for me, it wasn't about. It wasn't about trying to sin or make excuses. It was seriously about through integrity, trying to follow my heart and the spirit and my conscience to do what was right. It was not about trying to get out of, you know, inconvenient or difficult things now.

Jacque [00:39:57] Oh, I understand completely. And I guess when people hear the term cafeteria Mormon, if they find it offensive, I think it's because they're coming at it from the perspective if you go to any fine restaurant or a great. Have you ever been to Christmas brunch and these wonderful, you know, hotels where they have all of this food laid out?

John Dehlin [00:40:22] Yep.

Jacque [00:40:23] There is no human lee way possible to partake of every item on the buffet. Likewise, there is no way that we as human beings can do everything that our church offers for us to do. I cannot, in the 24 hour day that I'm given, obey every Request that is made of me as a Mormon, I cannot simultaneously be at the temple and the cannery. I cannot have 12 children if my body will only let me have three. I don't see it as a negative. I see it as a blessing that our church offers so many options and so many ways for people to find that niche for them where they can commune with God. If you have trouble with section 132, then it's okay to put that, leave it on the buffet line and say, you know what? I don't have to take section 132 right now. Maybe on the next time that I come through the line, it'll be more appealing to me. Just like, you know, I am not into genealogy. I have family members who are, and they live for it. I just don't have time in my life for it right now. And so that's one of the things on the buffet line that I don't have time for. I enjoy temple worship, but if I don't have time to get there, I don't allow myself to feel guilty about it. I go when I can, and I have positive feelings about going rather than kind of laying in the negative feelings and the guilt about not going.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] So it's not about, you know, partying and throwing off all the. All the rules and pursuing a life of debauchery?

Jacque [00:42:21] No. I think that everybody has to interpret the different commandments that are given in a way that works for them. But I don't think that it means that because you've become a cafeteria Mormon, that means that all of a sudden you're a hedonist. I don't think that that's what it means at all. But what I do think is that God knows what's in our hearts. The person sitting next to you in sacrament meeting may not know what's in your heart, but you're not there for the person sitting next to you in sacrament meeting.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] Right.

Jacque [00:43:07] You have to sort of let that part go.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Right, sure. Okay. So with that context, you felt okay with Eric becoming a cafeteria Mormon?

Jacque [00:43:20] Yes. And the promises that he made to me that initial, you know, during that initial period were very comforting to me because I felt like, well, this is not going to be difficult on my children. He did not want to pull them out of the church or, you know, destroy their faith or anything like that. He was concerned about the family. I guess one of the things that I would recommend for most folks try to avoid making a lot of promises when you're first going through this kind of a situation and first coming out to your spouse. Because a lot of those promises you may or may not be able to keep as time goes on. For instance, some people will not want to wear the garment after a while. And for me personally, it is not my place to say, you can't do that, you can do that. And I have to tell you, it made me uncomfortable to have my husband asking my permission, can I do this? Can I do that? Because I, I didn't want to be in a position to be his mother or to be responsible for his behavior. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:44:52] Sure.

Jacque [00:44:53] I think that it's important that people have to come to the conclusion of how they want to live and own it. And if you make promises before you sort of have things gelled, you may find that those are promises that you can't keep. And for me, as I've watched the evolving beliefs of my husband, it has been interesting for me to watch all of that, but it's also been interesting for me to see the changes in myself. And at some point in this process, I had to start letting go of the control because I tend to be a control freak. And I wanted to control every aspect of my husband's disaffection process. And that will cause resentment quicker than anything else in a marriage if you are constantly trying to control your spouse. And I have to tell you that our marriage is great. It's better than it was before this happened. And I have a lot of different theories as to why that is. But I think one of the things is that finally I am not being my husband's Mormon mother, you know, trying to get him out of bed for church on Sunday morning, You know, are you going to go do your home teaching? You know, all of those things that I see so many Mormon wives, including myself, mothering their husbands to do things that they may or may not want to do.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode. To provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your Ward Bulletin and Ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Also, this is a shout out to my tragically hip friends@studiocase.com in New York York City. That includes Travis, Jeff, Enoch and Tony for designing my new Mormon Stories podcast logo. Please check these amazingly talented guys out@studiocase.com or email to thank them at info studiocase.com and finally, music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixon.com that's sky with an E S K Y E pixton.com thank you. For loving guidance to show us the

Jacque [00:47:58] way Grateful we praise thee with songs

John Dehlin [00:48:05] of delight Gladly, gladly we'll walk in the light.

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 124

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive and to help me make it through grad school. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org teach me

Jacque [00:00:14] to walk in the light of his love Teach me to pray to my Father above Teach me to know all the things that are right Teach me, teach me to walk in the light.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] But let's talk about that. I mean, it's pretty traumatic. You know, the classic things that start happening are the husband wants, you know, the spouse, the non believing spouse wants, wants to take off their garments. The non believing spouse wants to stop going to church. The non believing spouse doesn't know if they can perform an ordinance, a baptism, or a confirmation. The non believing spouse wants to let the temple recommend expire. And it's very common that the non believing spouse decides that there's no reason for them. Since Joseph Smith drank wine and alcohol, since Jesus drank wine, that, you know, there's no reason not to occasionally have a beer or a glass of wine. So, you know, your perspective feels very mature to me. Very almost non typical. Because usually the typical reaction to that by the believing spouse is anger and fear and that the world is falling apart.

Roles, Priesthood, and Practical Family Challenges

Jacque [00:01:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] And so how can you talk about how you guys navigated that?

Jacque [00:02:07] Oh, sure. When I remember I had a phone conversation with you because we were having, we were basically negotiating as to whether or not my husband should be able to ordain our son when he had a, you know, a priesthood, you know, advancement. And I was very concerned about being dishonest, that I was somehow, you know, being dishonest before God. And my husband felt like he should be able to do this ordination because he was my, you know, he's the father of this child and he wasn't, you know, unworthy in any way. And I, and I had the phone conversation with you. And you said, look, there's a book in the Book of Mormon. It's a short book. I know you were driving in your car. I was driving in my car. And you couldn't come. You mentioned that the person said that he was a wicked man. And I knew exactly who you're talking about. And I said, that's Omni. And so I went home after a conversation, I read Omni, where he talks specifically about being a wicked man, that he had, you know, fought in many wars on behalf of the Nephites, but that he was a wicked man. But nevertheless, he was going to record this portion of the record because that was his duty. And I Remember sending you an email saying, look, I've prayed about this. I've studied this. And Omni was not a spiritual follower of Christ, but he did his temporal duty in bringing forth the Book of Mormon. And as I started to apply that to my husband, I realized, okay, my husband is not a spiritual Mormon. He may never have been a spiritual Mormon. Maybe he was a logical Mormon, but now he's not a logical Mormon. What is he? Well, I guess he's a temporal Mormon. He's a temporal Mormon. He is going to be involved in things that are physical. And for me, I am like a rock solid believer in the priesthood. I think it's real. I don't think it's an idea. I think it's a physical power, so to speak, that is transferred from one person to another. And I believe that when my husband was given that priesthood, it was given to him in the sense of that he has this power. And whether or not he believes in the legitimacy of the priesthood doesn't matter. I think the priesthood is bigger than any one man. It's bigger than Joseph Smith. It's bigger than Brigham Young. It's bigger than my husband's unbelief. And if he has done nothing to render himself unworthy to act as a priesthood holder, then who am I to say that he is somehow not worthy to perform those ordinances? It helped me a lot to go through that process and logically look at things, because here are these men, they are priesthood holders, and we have all of these different recordings through church history and all of these different things that show that they were not perfect. At times they sinned, at times they transgressed, made mistakes, but nevertheless, the church was able to keep functioning. Priesthood ordinances were performed, and by golly, if those people could somehow maintain their priesthood authority, then I felt like my husband could too. And so I really let go of this concept that my husband had to believe everything in order to be a worthy priesthood holder. And that helped me tremendously because I was able to again see my husband as, for lack of a better word, the patriarch. In our home, we don't really have a patriarchal type house. You know, my husband and I are equals in our home, but I no longer had this feeling of fear that there was no priesthood in my home. I felt like he was worthy in every way to lead our children and help me parent them. I didn't fear him sort of participating in those kind of ordinances. It became a relief to me, and I look forward to the day when that will happen.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] So did he perform any ordinances as a semi believer or non believer or not yet?

Jacque [00:07:08] He has not performed an ordinance at church as far as our son being ordained, but he has given a father's blessing to our daughter and it was interesting to see him sort of work his way through that, but made her feel better and it calmed her fears and anxieties and it made them closer. How can that be considered bad in any way?

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Right. One big question I have. There's a lot of believing spouses out there who, you know, the extreme reaction is that's it, their marriage is over, I'm gone. Okay. And that happens.

Jacque [00:07:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Yeah. There's another reaction, which is get it together, become a believer again. Because if we can't work this through, I'm gone. It's less immediate, but the results often end up being the same. Now, you're also notypical. You're atypical a bit in that you were writing me from the very beginning saying, I don't care, I want to preserve the marriage. There are a lot of spouses out there. Well, that's not the reaction. The reaction is bargain is over, the contract has been broken, I'm out of here. And you know, you could write some of those off to people who just had a crappy marriage and they're just looking for any way out. But I think you could also say that there are many who just, you know, celestial kingdom, exaltation, eternal marriage. That's just like, you know, they're married to God and the church and, you know, exaltation and the spouse is just the person that they chose to achieve that ends with. And so, you know, let's say that there are some people in that boat who are listening right now. What could we. Or you tell them to make an appeal, that a marriage is worth saving, even if it's not what they signed up for.

Jacque [00:09:42] Well, I guess the first thing that I would say is like, how do

John Dehlin [00:09:47] we know that God doesn't want the believing spouse to leave the disbelieving spouse?

Jacque [00:09:55] Well, first of all, if somebody is willing to leave a marriage simply because their spouse no longer believes, then I feel that person does not have a. I don't want to judge anybody, but I don't think that they have gained the ultimate testimony of the stealing power. I believe in the sealing power. I believe that my husband and I are sealed. He does not. He does not believe that we are sealed. But I believe that the sealing power is stronger than his unbelief and that perhaps my husband's faith crisis is the trial that I have to go through in this life in order to prove to my heavenly father that I am worthy to be sealed to this man. I am willing to put everything on the line because I love this man and I have made a choice to put my love for him and our marriage at the front of the line when it comes to everything in my life. Which means that I have to be willing to live a life of faith as opposed to what I used to consider, I guess a life of knowledge. Now I'm living by faith. I have faith that God is going to honor our ceiling. I have faith that if for some reason, you know, I live a life good enough to inherit the celestial kingdom, that my husband will be there with me. But here's the deal. If he's not there, I don't want to be there. I want to be wherever he is, because I'm sealed to him, not the celestial kingdom. I want my husband to not just some faceless eternal companion. I want him. I also think it's important that people remember that there are a lot of ways that the deal can change. People get sick, people get in car accidents and become paralyzed from the neck down. And the spouse that is not harmed is there to take care of the person. There are so many ways that the agreement can change that. This is just one more facet of for better or for worse, this is just one more way of showing God that I love this person. I'm sealed to this person. I am willing to serve my spouse for the rest of my life.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] Kind of gives eternal marriage a whole new meaning.

Jacque [00:13:01] Exactly. And you know, it really made me think about eternal marriage and why marriages fail. I mean, you know, the divorce rate within our church is not significantly lower than the general population. And Eric and I happen to have seen a lot of divorces of people that were married in the temple. And we couldn't figure out how these people that had been married in the temple and had such great families, how they could end up getting divorced. And I, I started to feel like maybe because Mormons see eternity as being locked in, like somehow our eternal lives are locked in. We went to the temple, we're sealed, everything's fine. We forget to tend to the day to day needs of our marriages and our spouses. And then before we know it, it's gone, the love is gone, the marriage fails, whatever it is. But I, I really do think that this experience has given me, has strengthened my testimony of eternal marriage and given me real, a real lesson in what it means. So it does. It really brings new meaning to the term.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] Did you.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] Have you guys had the conversations with your family, your parents, since then, or are they still unaware?

Jacque [00:14:36] They are unaware to this day.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Your parents don't know that. That your husband has struggled?

Jacque [00:14:43] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Wow.

Jacque [00:14:45] And I. And I don't know if. If they'll ever know. I. My husband is reticent to hurt them. He loves my parents and does not want to cause them stress, you know, or pain in their older years. I. I have faith that my. My parents would still love him, but I really believe that it's my husband's information to share and when he's ready. We don't have a secretive household. Our. Our children know that we definitely do not have an orthodox Mormon family.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] How do. So let's. If you don't mind, this is the biggest question I get. How do you communicate this to the kids? How do you finesse it? And how do you accommodate it and adapt? So go into as much detail or tips or tricks as you're able to on approaching the children about these changes. And if your approach has been to just minimize any disruption, that's cool, too, but go into as much detail as you can.

Jacque [00:16:06] Okay. Well, at first, we did not really discuss this with the kids in the sense of. We just kept things going for them the same as always. But my husband does not attend church,

John Dehlin [00:16:25] so he stopped going completely.

Jacque [00:16:27] He goes to sacrament meeting once in a while, but it's difficult for him. And so he. He has found another faith that has meaning for him. And so he will. Often when he comes to sacrament meeting, he leaves either a bit early from sacrament meeting or right after to go attend this other denomination. And I have gone with him a few times because he is wonderful and comes to church with me. And I feel like I want to be part of his religious life because I want to understand every aspect of him. I want to know every aspect of him. And so I want to go to that church with him when I can. But the kids know that he does not go to church often and that he leaves right after sacrament meeting. And we've talked about that. We have. We have. We have a coffee maker on our counter. And that part of our home was sort of introduced slowly in the sense that we talked about, just when different conversations had come up about things they had learned at church about the Word of Wisdom. We discussed the fact that the Word of Wisdom is sort of a. It's about obedience. It's about, you know, trying to be the best person you can be, but that some of the aspects of the word of wisdom don't make sense. Hot drinks means coffee and tea, and yet we drink hot chocolate. Is it. So is it the caffeine in the coffee and tea that's bad for you, but yet it's okay to drink Coke?

Raising Children Across a Faith Divide

John Dehlin [00:18:24] You know, you went into this with your kids.

Jacque [00:18:28] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Now, what are the ages of your kids?

Jacque [00:18:32] Our youngest is 13, and we have a 15 year old and an almost 21 year old.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Aren't you worried that you're teaching your kids to be relativistic and to not take the commandments seriously? I mean, as a parent, I want my kids to obey all the commandments that are, you know, that are constructive. So, for example, the word of wisdom for me is like, you know, really important. Although, you know, I don't have a problem with people who want to drink wine or beer or whatever. But for me, that's something I wouldn't want my kids slacking off on just because of the way I was raised. So isn't that kind of scary? And then you think, oh, what about the slippery slope? And what if they start making the law of chastity something that is just. Well, they can talk their way out of it? Like, have you thought about those implications? Or is it just, you're going to do what is right, let the consequences follow?

Jacque [00:19:28] But my number one goal is to never let my children believe that their father is anything but a wonderful man. And so by slowly introducing to them the concept that there really is nothing evil about coffee, that I don't drink it because I want to have a temple recommend. And that is the current guideline for, you know, having a temple recommend. Although I feel like if somebody did drink coffee and felt like they were worthy, that that's not my place to judge them. But it's just. It's not. Coffee's not my cup of tea. I just. I just don't drink it. And I don't drink tea either. But I drink hot chocolate and I drink peppermint tea, which is made with the same hot water as regular tea. And also the word of wisdom people answer that they keep the word of wisdom in a temple recommend interview when I know that they eat meat in times other than famine. And so what part of the word of wisdom is it somehow okay to not keep? And then these other parts are terrible to break. I really feel like it's my responsibility as the believing parent to teach my children tolerance and compassion and empathy because I do not want them hit in the face with their father's disaffection the way I was. I love my children enough to let them lose some of this idealism in favor of pragmatism as they mature and grow so that their relationship with their father is never compromised.

John Dehlin [00:21:33] What would you say, though, to someone who said, you're sacrificing the commandments so that your kids can have a better perspective review on their dad? Like. Like you're cheapening the commandments someone might accuse you of. Do you feel like you're doing that and you're just saying, yep, that's what I'm doing, Or do you see it differently?

Jacque [00:21:59] No, I see it differently. First of all, one of the most important commandments is to honor thy father and thy mother. And any religion that teaches children to dishonor a parent because of a beverage that they drink is out of line. Any religion that comes into my home and tells me that I cannot do this or I must do this in order to separate my children from their father is out of line. My heavenly father would never want me to do anything to lessen my children's father in their eyes.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] That's really good. So you're obeying a commandment by encouraging your kids to honor their father.

Jacque [00:22:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] And I guess you can in that case. I mean, there is no question that Jesus drank wine, that Joseph Smith drank wine and beer. The prophets, all the way up into the early 20th century, prophets and apostles drank beer and alcohol. That is irrefutable. So, I mean, you've got that on your side as well.

Jacque [00:23:17] Yeah.

Jacque [00:23:17] And I want my children to not be compelled in all things. I want them to see that these things are choices from all these other choices that are available in life. And if, you know, if this is something that some. If somebody drinks coffee, it does not mean they're a bad person.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] I think the pioneers brought coffee over, right?

Jacque [00:23:42] Yeah. It was part of their supply list that they had to have. And, you know, I really don't think that the word of wisdom is about coffee or beer. I see the word of wisdom as loving advice from a father in heaven to find a way to control our appetites, because anything that controls us makes our life less enjoyable. And so if people can. If a person can have a beer and just watch football game and drink a beer, that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. If a person can have a nice cup of coffee in the morning to brighten their day and, you know, get out the door, whatever it is. There's nothing wrong with that. If somebody drinks 25 cups of coffee a day and is, you know, shaking all the time, there's a problem. And somebody who drinks to excess and becomes intoxicated and drives or all the different things that can happen, that's not good. But the fact is, and this is something that so many Latter Day Saints do not understand, the vast majority of people on this earth drink alcohol, rarely to the point of becoming drunk. Mostly as just a one drink, probably, you know, a couple times a week. Most people do not become alcoholics. Most people who drink coffee have one or two cups and get on with their day. These are things that provide us with some guidelines for healthy living. Because Heavenly Father wants our spirits to be the master of our body, not the other way around. But taking anything to that kind of an extreme is unhealthy. I do not say that I have got the only way for people to run their homes. All I'm saying is that I made a decision. I made a conscious decision that my marriage and my family was not going to be broken up because of this. I just. And so I take every day as it comes and I. I try to be understanding, but when I try to control my husband, he resents it. And you know what? Satan wanted to control us, and we would have resented it. That's not the way it works. We have to find a way to be open to our spouses that are going through these changes. And that doesn't mean that you throw your belief to the wind. It isn't like that.

Setting Boundaries and Keeping the Marriage Strong

John Dehlin [00:26:44] What about the spouse that says there's got to be boundaries because first it's coffee, then it's alcohol, then it's adultery, pornography, whatever. Whatever people's fears might invoke. There has to be some lines, right?

Jacque [00:27:00] Well, I guess it depends on where you feel that the lines are important. I think that we have to understand that the only person that we can control in this life is ourselves. If my husband is going to drink a beer, he's going to do it whether I know about it or not. Do I really want my husband sneaking around to a bar to have a beer? Or would I rather have my husband at home with me, relaxing on our bed, watching tv, having a beer where I can, you know, lay my head on his shoulder and we can talk? Do I want that to happen or do I want him away from our home with strangers? How does that strengthen my marriage?

John Dehlin [00:28:02] Right?

Jacque [00:28:03] What about.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] What about adultery and, you know, the worst case scenario, that kind of stuff?

Jacque [00:28:08] Well, I believe that my number one job as a wife is to Give my husband every reason to come home from work every day. To me, that doesn't mean that I stop being who I am, but I give him the freedom to be who he is. And I really believe that if someone's going to commit adultery, beer has nothing to do with it. I think that becoming intoxicated definitely will lower someone's inhibitions. But I think that if you have to know your spouse. I know my spouse, and I know that my husband is faithful to me. But if he was going to be unfaithful to me, he has plenty of opportunities to do it. He has to travel sometimes for business. He's away from me at his job, you know, 10 hours during the day. And I have no way of knowing what he's doing every minute. And I would make myself crazy if I had to know those things, where he was at every minute. So I do everything I can to make my husband feel comfortable in our home. And I think it's important that that word our is emphasized. This is our home.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] And I guess plenty of. Plenty of spouses who are believing members cheat on their spouses, too. So it's not like, you know, there has to be a correlation there. I mean, adultery happens within the church all the time between believing members.

Jacque [00:29:48] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] So what would you say to someone who says, I'm listening to Jackie? It sounds like Jackie's making all of the accommodations. It sounds like she's a doormat wife. She's gonna support her husband if he wants to have a beer, support her husband if he wants to, you know, go inactive, and she's gonna love him no matter what, and he's sort of getting the man's dream. No responsibility, you know? No. No mutual sacrifice. Gets to watch the football games, and Jackie's the doormat. Well, let's say someone was sort of having that suspicion. Can you talk about, from his perspective, whether you feel like he's met you halfway?

Jacque [00:30:37] Well, I've never felt that marriage was 50. 50. I had an institute teacher tell me once that good marriages are 90. 90. It takes both people giving everything they have all the time. Now, some days, one of us isn't going to have the 90 to give, and that's just the way it is. But I guess from a true, totally believing LDS person, they might feel like I'm being a doormat and I'm making all the accommodations. I don't see that as. I don't see that as the case. I do feel like my husband is receiving unconditional love for me. I Love him. The things that are going on in his life have nothing to do with the way that I feel about him. I am not going to accept everything that comes down the pike. He knows that. But I'm trying to be as accommodating as I can because I love him. I'm trying to show my children what a healthy marriage is, is like. I'm trying to help them understand that not everything in life stays the same. I feel like the only training in disaffection that my children may get is going to be played out right here in our home. How would I, how would I want my son to be treated by his future spouse if he was to become disaffected? Would I want him thrown out on the street? Would I want her to take the grandchildren and leave? No. And likewise, I would not want my daughters to do that to their husbands if it was to happen. Or vice versa. There are women who become disaffected too. And anybody who knows me knows that I'm not a doormat.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Yeah, I can vouch for that. Well, I guess what I was trying to get at is I've spoken with enough disaffected members of the church to know that it actually is a huge sacrifice for them to be supportive of their believing spouse, to be non disruptive to the kids, spiritual journeys, to even go to church, to even step foot in the chapel. I mean, for the believer, this is going to sound just ludicrous that that is a sacrifice, but can you talk about that?

Jacque [00:33:25] Oh, my husband just going to sacrament meeting with us, takes everything he's got. When he leaves sacrament meeting, he's wiped out. He truly is giving everything he's got. My husband, if it were just him, he would resign from the church. He would really like to be out. I've asked him to please not resign. That is a request that I have made of him that I feel is probably putting him in a box a little bit. It's something that I'm trying to work on within myself, but it's sort of a line that is difficult for me. I want him to not give up his membership and it's something that we're working through. But he struggles. He sees our children being trained in the gospel that he no longer believes in and that he feels is damaging. There are things about the church that he thinks are positive, but he also feels that there are things that are damaging. And yet he supports me, supports our children. He does not express his anger or resentment, call it what you will, towards the church. He never expresses that to our children.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] That is not only remarkable in terms of how rare, because usually the disbelieving spouse is just always looking for the chance to take jabs. Not because they're bad people, but just because they feel so. They want the truth to be out there. They feel so angry. It's just almost impossible to not make smirks, to laugh, to laugh behind your breath, to take the kids aside. And so the extent to which he's not doing that, I think actually is a huge amount of showing a huge amount of restraint and respect.

Jacque [00:35:34] Oh, sure. And, you know, he. I don't see myself as this martyr that's giving everything up for my marriage. I see my husband as giving just as much. I see us both trying to make our marriage work. I. I can totally understand if my husband was angry with me for staying. I could understand him feeling that way, if that, you know, I mean, he doesn't feel that way, but I could understand it. My husband does not understand how I can believe in anything that I believe in. It's a mystery to him. He loves me. He thinks that I'm bright and a wonderful wife, but I am constantly a mystery to him because he does not understand how I can believe and yet he loves me anyway. He's here. He comes home every night and, you know, has dinner with us. And you know, sometimes it's him cooking dinner and sometimes it's me. But I think that one of the most important things that we have to realize is that doubting is not a sin. Doubting is not a sin. My husband, by doubting the church and its validity, commits no sin. And likewise, believing is not folly. I am not a feather brain, misled dupe because I believe

John Dehlin [00:37:27] right?

Jacque [00:37:31] But I think that the part about doubting is not sin is the hardest thing for believing members of our church to get their head around. Because that's why we treat disaffected people the way we do. Because we believe that doubt equals sin, that the act of doubting is a sin. And that is unfortunate because I just don't believe it. And you know, I really don't think we should be teaching that.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Right. So what's it like being effectively for the people at church? You know, a single mom, a. A single believer going to church alone, you know, how is that?

Attending Church Alone and Ward Reactions

Jacque [00:38:35] Well, it was weird at first. My husband would go to sacrament meeting with me, but then leave. And so going to gospel doctrine class is always interesting because there's all these couples sitting together and the people who are alone in there, they often put their Scriptures on their chair, on the chair next to them, to make sure that nobody sits by them. And so you sort of gain the talent of just sitting alone in Gospel doctrine class. Although I started to just seek out the women that were truly single, divorced women or women that had never been married, they became my friends, and I really started to gain empathy for them because I started to see so much of the doctrine that is preached at church through the eyes of someone who does not have the cookie cutter, the promised eternal marriage, my eternal marriage, everything about it is based on faith. And so when I go to Relief Society or Gospel Doctrine, and I hear some of the doctrine that is preached about being a servant, an angel to those who are exalted, and. And some things like that, it's kind of sad. And I'm just gaining such an insight as far as what so many women and men in the church go through because they're not married or because they're not married to a member. And I tell you something, there have been times in class when I have just put my arm around the single gal next to me and just said, I don't believe that, and neither should you. You. Your life isn't over because you're not married yet, or your life isn't over because you're divorced. You know, we can. We can do this. We can find ways of making our place in this church. And I used to always, when I was in the Relief Society presidency, I would tell sisters who were single or who had been sealed in the temple and then gotten divorced, and now they're remarried and they've got children from that first marriage and children from the second marriage, and they didn't know, who are my children going to be sealed to? And I would always say to them, you know, that's not something you need to worry about, because Heavenly Father is going to work all of that out for you. You don't have to worry about a thing. Well, now I have to take my own advice and sort of put myself into that category. I'm just. I'm sort of going by faith, and Heavenly Father's gonna have to work all that out for me. It's gonna be a busy. It's gonna be a busy guy, right?

John Dehlin [00:41:50] How. How have the church leaders acted? And home teachers and members, like, do you think members have a sense that, you know, ward members have a sense for what's going on? Do you think they just think he works on Sundays? Like, you know, how the ward members acted or not acted?

Jacque [00:42:11] Well, I think that. I think that Some of the ward members probably have an idea that something's going on. I think that, you know, for my husband, he's done a lot of, you know, bobbing and weaving, not returning phone calls, that sort of a thing. Recently had a discussion with our bishop where he basically informed the bishop that I can't hold a calling, I can't be a home teacher. I'm. I'm really only involved in this for my family. And I thought it was good. I thought it was a good conversation because the expectations that will be put upon my husband are obviously less, which I think will reduce his stress load, and that's a good thing.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] How did you do that without having the bishop assume that it was for adultery or pornography or some heinous, you know, sin in the bishop's eyes?

Jacque [00:43:16] Well, we went to the bishop's office together. I felt like it was important for us to show, not a united front, like it's some sort of confrontation. But I wanted the bishop to understand that nothing was going to come between my husband and myself. And we had the discussion, and he wanted to know why my husband had this position. And we had decided before we went that we were not going to get into any discussions about the issues that led to my husband's disaffection, that that was not the time or the place for it, and that it really isn't anyone's business unless, you know, we get farther down the road and something has to be said. But we just basically said, we're not going to talk about it right now, but this is where I'm at. And when the bishop was sort of probing a little bit more, I said, look, I think that my husband's thoughts and feelings and beliefs are in a state of flux right now, which they are. And these guidelines that we're sort of laying down are not just for him, but to help make things go better at church. And our bishop was so great. He said, look, the church is here to serve the people, not the people serving the church. And although what is the church but the people? I liked the attitude that he had that, look, whatever you can give, we're happy to accept. He didn't kick us out of the ward. He was great. He just wanted to know how he could serve our family. I felt like it was the best possible outcome. But it definitely is good that my husband does not have to have the stress hanging over his head of receiving a teaching calling or being a home teacher, things that he does not feel that he can honestly take on right now.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Right. So the bishop was pretty cool about it.

Jacque [00:45:46] He was.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] And you took an approach of no details, avoid being threatening in any way.

Jacque [00:45:54] Yeah, we weren't trying to be threatening. We had discussed some guidelines with him as to how we want our children dealt with at church because we just had some specific requests and we made those requests and they were sort of new requests to him. But he, you know, we're the parents and he was certainly willing to work with us on those. And then after that, my husband sort of laid out his position and I also informed the bishop that he, because of some of these things, we would not be at church every Sunday, that there would be Sundays when our family would need to be together, strengthening our family unit away from the church. And he understood.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] Wow, sounds like you have a cool bishop.

Jacque [00:46:51] I thought he was great.

John Dehlin [00:46:55] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your ward bulletin and ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Also, this is a shout out to my tragically hip friends@studiocase.com in New York City. That includes Travis, Jeff, Enoch, and Tony for designing my new Mormon Stories podcast logo. Please check these amazingly talented guys out@studiocase.com or email to thank them@infostudiocase.com and finally, music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an E S K Y E

Jacque [00:47:54] pixton.com thank you for loving guidance to show us the way Grateful we praise thee with songs of delight Gladly, gladly we'll walk in the light.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 125

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive and to help me make it through grad school. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org teach me

Guest [00:00:14] to walk in the light of his love Teach me to pray to my Father above Teach me to know all the things that are right Teach me, teach me to walk in God.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] So do the kids ever just say, daddy won't be in the celestial kingdom with us or I'm not going to church anymore because Daddy isn't going. Or you know, what about the kids testimonies and commitment to the church with Daddy not being a believer?

Jacque [00:01:03] Well, I think that that's definitely something that people could be concerned about. But I see so many part member families where the one of the spouses isn't even a member finding ways of making it work that I'm not too worried about it. And also, I don't want my children going to church because they feel like they have to. I want them to find the faith that makes them happy. And I want them to understand, look, you don't have to believe everything that the church teaches in order to find favor with God. You can feel this way about something or that way about something. You do not check your opinions and personalities at the door when you go to church on Sunday. I don't think that they need to be screaming at the top of their lungs everything that they think and feel. But I, I also don't think that they need to be pinned down, so to speak. I, I want my children to understand the things that my husband knows. I want them to gain a knowledge of the things that he believes and, and the historical issues of the church that caused him to lose his faith. I want them to slowly learn about these things in a safe environment, in a safe way so that I don't send my son out on a mission who doesn't understand that there's all these different sides to the story. If he can learn all of these things and still have a testimony and still want to be a missionary, what a missionary he'll be.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] But would it be heartbreaking if your kids left the church?

Jacque [00:03:23] Well, I think that at one time in my life I would have felt that way. I think I've come to a place where I just want my children to be happy. I just want my family members to be happy. I will do everything I can to give them my culture and my faith. But my husband is also their parent and they need to understand his faith and his beliefs and ultimately Everybody has to find their own testimony anyway.

John Dehlin [00:04:05] Yeah. It's not like, it's not like having both parents remain believers is a guarantee that your kids are going to stay in the church. I mean, overwhelmingly, the people I know who have left the church, both of their parents were devout, active believers. So, yeah, it's, it's two things are certain. You know, non members aren't, you know, non members aren't the. Well, members aren't the only people who's. I don't know how to say this. Basically, your kids can go off the deep end as non members and they can go off the deep end as members. Your marriage can go off the deep end as non members and it can go off the deep end as members. And your kids can remain members with a disbelieving parent or they can leave the church with both parents fully believing. True.

Jacque [00:05:15] Yes. Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Yeah. Still, man, it's got to be hard to contemplate your kids not. Not choosing Mormonism. I mean, it is for me.

Jacque [00:05:30] Well, I think that, I think it depends on how you define Mormonism. I, you know, my husband is a member of, of the Latter Day Saint Church. He was baptized, he joined the church. He's a member. I don't know if he would say that he was ever fully a Mormon because he never really assimilated into the culture. Now, for me, I'm a Mormon. Anybody that tries to tell me that somehow I'm not being because I believe one thing or another thing differently than they do, well, they're going to get a fight from me because, by golly, this is my church. My parents gave me this church. And this is my, it's my spiritual language, just like English is my spoken language. This is how I commune with God. And it's as much a culture for me as a faith. And I think that Mormonism is a culture. And so for my children, even if they to some reason stop being lds, I think that they'll always be Mormon. And I think that the faithful works that have been done by members of my family and my ancestors, those all mean something. And I don't think that a loving heavenly father going to be a hatchet man. I don't think that he wants to cut any of us off. I think he wants us there with him.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] So maybe somehow you have a faith that it's all going to be worked out in the end.

Jacque [00:07:31] Pretty much. Yep. Kind of banking on the faith thing.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] Right. So this is going to be a hard question for you to be honest about. Compare Eric Three Faces As a. As a husband and as a father, sort of pre disaffection, in the heat of the disaffection, where you guys weren't on the same page and where he is now. And what I'm specifically looking for is is he happier, not happier. And most importantly, has he become neglectful of you and of the kids, less of the father, less of the husband that he was? As a true believer, and this is obviously asking you to, you know, share something really personal. I can't imagine you're going to ever say that he's not, but I think you could sell us if he is at least every bit as good, if not better, I think you could make that sale. If it turns out he slid down, I imagine you're not going to be able to be truthful about that. But are you able to speak to that at all?

Emotional Challenges and Relationship Changes Over Time

Jacque [00:08:51] Oh, absolutely. You know, there are days when. He's angry. And it's not that he's angry at me, he's just, you know, angry at the situation. And I would not say that he is unkind. It's just that he's angry. I know that before this all happened, we had a great marriage, but it had not always been a perfect marriage. When you're married for 22 years, you have ups and downs. We had already gone through so much and fought for our marriage through that 22 years that we had a lot of the tough stuff behind us. And when we both determined, look, we're going to make this work, whatever we have to do, things really started to get better. Better than they were before his disaffection. I have found him to be happier in general than he was before his disaffection because I think that he finally understands, okay, this is one of the reasons why I always had this question. This is why I never felt comfortable about that. I never. I never understood this. And now I understand why. For him, there is much more clarity. And I think he feels free in a certain respect because he does not feel like there is this checklist that God is keeping score with him. And I think that he just feels weight that is. That is off of his shoulder in the sense that. Okay, now I get it. Now I know why I was always feeling this way. And because of that, I think that it has opened him up to feeling some emotions that maybe he kept closed off before. Because I will say that he is a more caring father. He is more involved with our children than he was before the disaffection, not that he wasn't involved with them. But now it's more. I guess maybe I can't really speak for him, but I get a sense that it's. If this life turns out to be all we have, I'm going to make it the best life that I can for my wife and my kids. I really feel that about him, that it's, look, this is what we got, and it's going to be wonderful. We're going to make it wonderful. And he's kind to me. He is less angry in general than he used to be. And he's a better husband, I think, because he has just opened himself up to the possibility that maybe this is all there is and I'm not going to waste a minute of this life. And I remember him saying something to me about that effect, that he did not want to waste one more day of his life doing something that he didn't believe in. And that's why it is so difficult for him to go to sacrament meeting, because he feels like, here I am sitting in this meeting, I don't believe this, and I'm wasting my time because there are so many other things that I could be doing. And yet he does it. He sacrifices that time for our family. I think it's, you know, heroic in some respects because I know how stressed out I get if I'm in a meeting that I think is a waste of time.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] Sure. All right, let's flip it. Now, how about you? Do you wish in your heart of hearts you could roll it all back and go back to where both of you were more literalistic believers, he was in, and things were simpler and whether or not you would roll it back. How's your happiness, joy, satisfaction now versus before and during the crises?

Jacque [00:13:31] Well, the question, you know, would you roll it back if you could? That's always, you can't. And, and I'm. And I'm the kind of person that is. I'm rather realistic in the sense that you cannot roll it back. So wasting my time entertaining fantasies like that, it doesn't get me anywhere. But I have, I've thought about it and I would not go back. I. I guess this is just selfish on my part, but I enjoy an intimacy with my husband now that I did not have before. I feel like my husband and I are sort of like trapeze artists, but without a net. And the only way that we're going to make this work is by holding tighter to each other and just not letting go. And I feel like this, although at the beginning it was so painful and so frightening, now I feel like it's just been a blessing in my life. It's opened emotional doors for me that, that were. That were not there before. And spiritually for me, I have, I have had to look at a lot of the same issues that my husband has looked at. Some of the things I agree with him and other things I have to say, well, I just don't know. But once you sort of embrace the idea of living by faith, it can change so many aspects of your life.

Guest [00:15:39] And.

Jacque [00:15:44] Having everything decided and known can make you feel safe. But it's not as thrilling as the way it feels to know that there's no net. It's pretty exciting right now in my life.

Advice for the Believing Spouse

John Dehlin [00:16:07] Interesting. Let's have you bring things to a close a bit by giving two sets of summary advice. Some of the people listening are the believing spouse and their spouse. Is where your husband was back in May? Yeah, he just fell off the cliff. What are the do's and don'ts you would give to the believing spouse on how, how to act and how not to act when their spouse loses their faith and then flip it around. What advice would you give the disbelieving spouse on a humane way to approach it with the family?

Jacque [00:17:11] Well, for the believing spouse, I guess I would say that the first thing that you've got to do is decide that you're going to make your marriage work. There is, you know, I hear so many arguments for divorce that I feel are false arguments. Well, is it better to get divorced or to, you know, stay together and be fighting all the time? Well, that's a false choice. You can stay together and find ways of making things work. It's the same thing with disaffection. You do not have to present yourself with false choices. You can allow yourself to have other choices than what you think are on the table. One of the options is to say to yourself, I want to make my marriage work and I'm going to find ways of being loving and accepting of my spouse. The second thing I would say to the believing spouse is that you need to let go of the control and the feelings of guilt and responsibility. That somehow you are big enough or faithful enough or strong enough to change your spouse's mind and bring them back into the church. I think it is so important to remember that when Jesus was on the earth, he did not convert everyone, they crucified him. And no matter how much we believe or how strong our faith is, it isn't necessarily transferable to our spouse. They have to find their path that is going to make them happy. And we have to be willing to step back and let them kind of find their way. It doesn't mean that we abandon them. It means that you can say, okay, I'm going to walk beside you. I can't take that same path with you, but I'm going to walk beside you. On one of the online boards, I made the comment that when my husband was first going through this, he joked with me that he's out wandering in the mists of darkness. But I was holding to the iron rod, and I just told him, well, you are my Mr. Incredible, and I'm Elastigirl, and I can hold onto the iron rod and you at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] That's great.

Jacque [00:20:13] And so I think that letting go of feelings of guilt and this feeling that you have to be able to control and keep them in line, I think that letting go of those is very freeing to the believing spouse. It's not your fault. It's not your responsibility.

Guest [00:20:31] This.

Jacque [00:20:32] This is happening to thousands of people. It is not just you. Thousands of people are going through this. And somehow we've got to find a way to reduce the collateral damage that's happening to families. I guess the one other thing that I would suggest is that we've got to keep in mind that our homes belong to us. Our husbands, our wives, whether they believe or don't believe, have every bit as much of a place in our home. I often hear people say, well, I will not have coffee in my home, or, I will not have that in my home, or this in my home. Well, at our house, it's his home, too. And I want my husband to feel like this is his home as much as it is mine, and that his. His heart is welcome here and his beliefs are welcome here. And. And as long as the things that we are doing are sharing with sincerity and respect for each other, then I think that we need to have our homes be a safe place where people can be who they are. Now, for the disaffected spouse.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] Sorry, one last thing.

Jacque [00:22:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] This is wonderful. The implication, one of the implications of what you're saying to the believer is, Jackie, you're asking me to let die my hopes of an eternal marriage, of being in the celestial kingdom with my spouse and with my children. You're saying, let it go. Let it die, and I could get out. Well, I know. I know you'll have a response, but they're saying, I could get out of this marriage now while there's still time, while I'm still Attractive enough to find somebody else. I could find someone who's worthy. I could find someone who's going to take me to the celestial kingdom and I don't have to let die what's most important to me. What would you say to them?

Jacque [00:23:16] Well, I would say that if. If you're. If the idea of a celestial marriage is more important to you than actual eternal marriage and eternal love with the person that you took vows with, then I don't know if you understand why eternal marriage is so important. It's not just so that you have, you know, somebody there forever. It's because you have the person that you love more than anything in this world with you forever. I understand that people believe that they could leave a marriage and go find somebody else. But if that's how you really feel, then do you truly love your spouse now? Do you really have an eternal marriage? I believe in the sealing power. But what drives it? I don't know. Is it a function of the priesthood? Sure, maybe. But maybe it's also a function of how much we love each other. Maybe that is the sealing power. Eternal love. I plan to love my husband so strong and so hard that there isn't a power in the universe that could separate us.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] Perfect. Beautiful. Okay, you were saying the disbelieving spouse.

Advice for the Disbelieving Spouse

Jacque [00:24:59] For the disbelieving spouse. I guess my number one bit of advice for the disbelieving spouse would be that when you come out to your believing spouse, try to not be in such an emotional state that you are out of control of your emotions. And this is such an emotional thing that I know that it's hard, but I know that part of what was so upsetting for me was that my husband was just. He was so frantic and upset that before he even told me anything, I was upset. I was starting to cry. My husband is crying. What could possibly be going on? I didn't know if things were so terrible that he thought, you know, he wanted to divorce me, or, I mean, every horrible scenario was running through my head and he had not said a single word to me. So that's partly my fault for being too emotional sometimes. But try to be calm and try to speak in language that is ever so kind and ever so respectful of the tender feelings that your spouse is going to have for this faith. You know, we're raised in this faith to love the church and to feel like it is part of who we are. And that was a real difficulty for me when my husband was rejecting the church. I could not understand how he could Love me because I'm a Mormon girl, you know? And it's not like you can't tell I'm a Mormon from the minute I start talking. I have that weird Mormon twang, whatever it is, when we speak, it's just. You can just tell. And I just couldn't figure out how he could still love me because his feelings for the church had changed so much. I just didn't know how he could love me anymore. And so I think that you have to be very reassuring to your spouse of your love for your spouse, which he was. But also be very careful in your language of how you talk about the church. Some of my husband's language is, well, was harsh because his feelings were harsh. And I know that you, John, gave him some good advice to be careful of some words to use. For instance, the fraud word is very. It's kind of like being slapped. It hurts. It's not a good word to use. And I also think it's important that you present your newfound information to your spouse very carefully. Edit it down to the easiest possible way of explaining it, and present it in the sense of, I found this information and this is how I feel about it, because chances are good that your spouse is not going to feel the same way that you do. And if you are coming at the believing spouse from the perspective of, look, these are facts, this is the way it really came down. We're all being misled, We've been duped. It's going to bring up that fight or flight response, and your spouse is either going to run the other direction or get ready to fight. And I don't think that you want either one. You want to be able to have a dialogue. And what I have found is that a lot of people that are going through this disaffection process are not necessarily in their 40s like my husband and myself. They're in their 20s or early 30s, and they don't have 22 years of marriage behind them. And so this is a very delicate time. You need to be as delicate talking about these issues with your spouse as you would be if you had done something to lose their trust in the marriage. Not that they are equal in the sense of, like I said, I don't consider doubting or disbelief to be a sin. But the results of the conversation that you're going to have with your spouse are going to be as devastating in the early stages. There's just no way of getting around it because everything that they've sort of been banking on and sort of, they don't even think about it because it's just, it's just part of, you know, what's going to happen in their mind that all of a sudden their entire world is going to be changed. And so coming at it from that perspective, just be delicate, be kind, be willing to accept the fact that your spouse may not believe the same things that you believe and be willing to negotiate. And this is important on both sides. I come at this from a different direction than other people might. If you're a believing spouse and having the children 100% active in the church and no knowledge of the disbelieving spouse's beliefs, that's a hard line. That is telling your spouse, look, I don't value what you think and feel, but if that is a deal breaker for you, be kind, but be honest about it. If you're the disbelieving spouse, please understand that some of the initial reactions of your believing spouse will change. They are in shock. Just like you were in shock when you found the information that caused your disaffection. You felt betrayed, you felt lied to, you felt devastated, like your whole world has come crashing down. Well, you're about to do that same thing to your believing spouse. Try to do it in a way that is kind. Try to be there to pick up the pieces. Sometimes it's not fair. Sometimes the disaffected spouse has to bear the brunt of all of the anger and the ultimatums and, and you've got to do this, you've got to do that. Sometimes that's the way it is. That's unfortunate. Sometimes the believing spouse has to be the one that is the most willing to bend and give because the doubting spouse is going through so many changes so rapidly. All I can say is that for both sides, time really is your friend. The things that are causing you so much pain today in a year's time will be softer and will not, not feel so, so harsh. Try to hang in there long enough to let some of these feelings soften. Try to understand that eternal love is the reason for eternal marriage. We need to love our spouses so much that eternal marriage is sort of the natural consequence to a life on this earth of loving each other so much that, oh, well, of course we're going to be together because there's nothing that could keep us apart.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Were there last question. Other than if you want to share, you know, a sense of the pill, I was thinking about asking you about the kind of the pillars of your faith as the final question. But before I Do that. Were there any external resources that you and your husband took advantage of that helped you both constructively work through things and helped you get ideas or feel like you weren't alone? You know, were there any. Can you point people to any types of resources to, to help them through in addition to the advice you gave about how they treat each other?

Jacque [00:34:09] Well, I think that marriage counseling is always a good idea for people that feel like their marriage is seriously in trouble. This is going to sound like maybe kind of a hard thing for the believing spouse to hear, but I don't think that it's necessarily the best idea to go to an LDS counselor because their view is going to be somewhat skewed towards, you know, faith in the church, that everything will be fine if this person just comes back to the church? And I think that it's sort of disregarding the needs of the, of the doubting or the disbelieving spouse. I think that you need somebody completely neutral, not an LDS counselor, but a good marriage family therapist that can help you work through some issues on how to communicate on what it's like to have an interfaith marriage. Because believe it or not, there are thousands, millions of people across the world that have marriages to a spouse that is not of their faith and find some good tactics for making that work. I also have found that Faces east helped me immensely.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] Okay, tell us what that is.

Jacque [00:35:41] Faces east is an online community. It's@faceseast.org and it is committed to the ideal of eternal marriage. But it's basically set up where believing spouses come together for support. Everyone there is either married to a non member or mostly married to disaffected members. Mostly is women on there, but there are some men. And we love to have more men come because we like to get that perspective. Basically, we offer support to each other and logistical advice. How do I get through this baptism next year because my husband does not want our daughter to be baptized, or my wife is discouraging our son from serving a mission. You know, whatever it is, we offer logistical, real life advice of what we're doing to kind of make things work. We also talk about some of the issues that our spouses found that caused them to leave the church and what that means for us and how our testimonies have changed. So that is a great resource. And of course, for the doubting spouse, you probably already know all of the amazing communities that are out there to offer support for people that are either trying to stay in the church and make it work or Trying to leave the church and, you know, maintain sanity, whatever it is. There's a lot of the online sources, New Order Mormon, Stale Diaz. I know that there is several others, I think, post Mormon and ex Mormon. I'm not as versed in those sites. I visit them occasionally because I want to understand my husband's perspective. But I'm more of a lurker than anything else.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] And those have been, Those have been helpful to you guys to get ideas and not feel alone and stuff like that?

Jacque [00:38:01] Absolutely. I think that my, My husband is not a big poster. He does not write very much on any of these websites. He's a very quiet, you know, contemplative person. But reading everyone's experiences, I think is very helpful for him. And it can be helpful for a lot of people. You don't have to post anything, but finding out. I think the most important thing is finding out that you're not alone in the situation. I think that helps a lot. And learning, just like on Faces east, learning some practical ways of dealing with the logistics of living this kind of a lifestyle. And it is so easy for me to say, well, just do this or just, you know, just let your husband have some coffee, no big deal. But for some people, it is a big deal. Some people have children that maybe want to get married in the temple soon. How do I, you know, find. How do I find the strength to. To be honest with myself and be able to talk to my bishop and have a temple recommend so that I can see my child be married? I think that there are ways of working through it. I think that learning that the world isn't as black and white as we often think it is is helpful. And those sites can offer real world advice to help the doubting person sort of maneuver this kind of weird journey.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] Sure.

Jacque [00:39:44] That's not disrespectful to call it weird, is it?

John Dehlin [00:39:48] Well, it's definitely. It's definitely, you know, not the. Not the. Not what we thought would play out in many cases.

Jacque [00:39:56] Yeah. But I think that as Mormons, we should be the most open to variations on a theme.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] Yeah.

Jacque [00:40:04] Because almost everything about our religion is a variation on what most people think and feel and believe. And if we're a peculiar people, you know, maybe we just need to be able to be a little more peculiar once in a while.

Where Faith Stands Today

John Dehlin [00:40:20] All right, well, maybe let's end just by sharing with us your, you know, the pillars of your faith as they currently stand. Where is your faith anchored these days?

Jacque [00:40:33] Well, I feel like my faith is definitely anchored in My family, that I believe that serving my husband and serving my children and keeping our family together and happy is the best way I can serve God. I really feel like if I'm the only. Example of how I would want to be treated and of how I feel that Christ would treat my husband, if I'm the only example that my husband gets to see, then it better be a good one. And I'm going to try to. I'm going to try to love my family the way that Christ loves me. I feel like that's the best thing I can do right now. I. I believe in my eternal marriage. I have a testimony. I totally believe in the sealing power and that there's something there and that I'm sealed to my husband and that he is sealed to me and that our children are sealed to us. I think that with our mortal feelings and emotions and our mortal brains, we sort of assign to that whole concept what we think it means and what we think it should be. And I think that we need to be open to a greater understanding that may come to us later as to what it really means to be sealed and what that means for the rest of eternity. I feel the love of my Savior in my life. I feel closer to him than I have in the past. I feel that this new phase of my life where I'm living more by faith than by what I would have considered knowledge several years ago, I find it to be very spiritual. I think it's easier to feel the spirit and to just listen and to try to be still and understand that I do not have to know all the answers. I don't have to. I don't have to understand everything right now. I don't have to defend the church or my beliefs to anyone. I am not apologist for the church. I don't have to defend anything that somebody did 150 years ago. That's not my job. They have to answer for anything in their life, and I have to answer for anything in mine. And what I'm trying to do is not hurt anyone and do what Jesus would want me to do. I. I guess I'm thankful for having gone through this experience because it is changing me in ways that I didn't really expect.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Well, Jackie, thank you so much for your beautiful story, for your courage and your strength and your willingness to share it with everyone else.

Jacque [00:44:14] Now, thank you. And thank you, John, because you helped

John Dehlin [00:44:17] us immensely and thank your dear husband.

Jacque [00:44:22] Oh, I will in about five minutes.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Beautiful. Okay, Jackie, we'll take care. Thank you so much.

Jacque [00:44:31] Bye bye.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter or through your Ward Bulletin and ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Also, this is a shout out to my tragically hip friends@studiocase.com in New York City that includes Travis, Jeff, Enoch and Tony for designing my new Mormon Stories podcast logo. Please check these amazingly talented guys out@studiocase.com or email to thank them@infostudiocase.com and finally, music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you.

Guest [00:45:47] Grateful we praise thee with songs of delight Gladly, gladly we'll walk in the light.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.