Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Kirk Van Allen [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead

Lindsay Van Allen [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and this is something rare. It's April 2nd. I just got through interviewing Marisa Calderman, Marisa Pond Calderman Wife of Carson Calderman and I'm going to be interviewing someone else in the same evening. My family's out of town, I'm home all alone. And so I'm cramming in the interviews. And I am so excited to be interviewing Lindsay Van Allen and Kirk Van Allen. And you know, it fits very much along the theme of my interview with, with, with Carson and Marisa. You know, as as many of you know, you know, Denver Snuffer was excommunicated, you know, late night, you know, 2013. Kate Kelly was excommunicated in, in mid 2014. And, and of course I was excommunicated in early 2015. And you know, one of the, one of the real concerns that many of us had was that that this would sort of launch sort of the empowerment or a new wave of disciplinary actions taken against members for doing something as simple as publicly or openly expressing their doubts or questions or disbelief. And a few weeks ago, I came across one of the most mind blowing examples of how this craziness can really go awry. And, and, and so today we have Kirk and Lindsay here to talk about what happened. But just to give you the really short version of it, Kirk Van Allen posted on his blog something just very simple, which basically said, I do not believe that Section 132, which deals with polygamy of the Doctrine and Covenants, is a revelation from God. And that's all he said. You know, it's, if you, if you listen to Gordon B. Hinckley Winners Interview with Larry Larry King, he says polygamy is not doctrinal. If you, if you're paying attention to the LDS Church at all in the the 2000s, they do everything they can to distance themselves from polygamy. But, but because, you know, because Kirk dared to say that he disbelieved one of the sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. He was called in by his bishop and later by your stake president. Is that right, Kirk?

Kirk Van Allen [00:03:32] That is right, yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] And he has been sort of threatened with the disciplinary council, and he hasn't gotten a letter yet, but they've now met with an area authority. So it's certainly being escalated. And they're in the middle of waiting to hear back to see. They were certainly told that if they didn't take it down, they would be excommunicated. They. They've decided not to take it down. And so they're, they're waiting to hear how that all goes. So I'm interviewing both Kirk and Lindsay because I listened to a wonderful interview by Gina Colvin on the Thoughtful Faith podcast where she interviews both Lindsay and Kirk. And it's definitely interview worth listening to. Gina is fantastic, but it turn turns out that a lot of this started with Lindsay, and so I want to have them both on. And this will probably be a little bit repetitive to Gina's wonderful interview, but you guys are an important story and I want to do everything I can to get your story out and to help monitor and see what happens. So, Lindsay and Kirk Van Allen, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:04:43] Thanks, John.

Kirk Van Allen [00:04:46] Thank you very much. And I just want to just make a correction so all your listeners understand that we haven't been for, you know, nobody's mentioned excommunication, but I asked my bishop if excommunication was on the table, and he kind of shrugged his shoulders. So it's disciplinary council was used multiple times and. But excommunication, I guess, is a possibility, yet we don't know. I guess we're in limbo right now.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] Okay, I apologize. I jumped the gun. So disciplinary counsel, which to most Mormons sort of, you know, is equated with excommunication.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:05:20] That's the first place your mind jump.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] Yeah, but that, that's not the only possible outcome. So. So let's just jump right in. Lindsey. Okay, tell us, just tell us just how you got concerned or interested in this issue of polygamy.

Lindsay's Journey to Questioning Polygamy

Lindsay Van Allen [00:05:35] Well, it all started when I was born a female. And it's kind of a weird convoluted story. When I was 14 or 15, I read the Work in the Glory series and I'm sorry, I have a cold, so I sound a little funny. And I got to that the book where it discusses polygamy and since I've realized it talked about Joseph Smith's polygamy. And I think I blocked that out. My mind was trying to protect me, and it really shook me up for a little while, and I felt kind of sad, but I was like, no, I would be so righteous, and I would do whatever. And so then I moved on in my teenage life. And you just try not to think about it. Once you realize what it is, it hurts and feels scary, but you just don't. You try not to dwell on it. One time, when I was in college, I was dating Kirk, and we started dating, and my roommates and I would all get together on Sunday afternoons in the hallway, just sit and talk. And one time we just. You know, I'd been discussing marriage, and they brought up polygamy, and we were discussing it, and finally at one point, I said, you know, sometimes I wish I hadn't been born Mormon. And one of my roommates was shocked, and she's like, well, why would you even say that? And I said, you know, because I really love Kirk, and I really hope we do end up getting married, but I can't imagine sharing him. And so if I hadn't been born Mormon, I could go my whole life knowing that I wouldn't have to share him. And then when I died, we could deal with it then. But I'm like, just the fact that I know that that could be a possibility just makes me really sad. And I wish I never had to think about that or never had to know about that. I wish it would just be something I'd figure out after we died. And I was like, you know, I think people who aren't Mormon, who are good people, they're lucky in that way. And some of my roommates agreed with me, and. And they said we hadn't thought about it that way. And I was like, you know, when you're facing getting married, it all just kind of came back, those feelings of revulsion and being kind of worried about it. And then. So Kirk and I had discussions about it, as I think most married Mormons do, and you just try not to think about it, and you try to move forward. And then Kirk had his dream that he talked about with Gina. And I think that was a big turning point where I could see how he could understand. And I never had a man really understand. I could just see it in his eyes that he understood how I felt, and he understood how much it hurt, and he understood how scary it was and how it just made me feel sick. That was really powerful. And we were able to have some really fantastic Discussions after that. Then we started reading Rock Waterman's blog. It was probably the first non LDS blogger NACL source we ever read. I don't even remember how we found it, but we started reading it and he had that section about Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy. And we read that and we read the PDF of the book that he recommended. And I was so excited and I was like, yes, okay, this is what I wanted. It was all just. We just were confused. And he didn't practice polygamy. That's fantastic. And I was so excited about that. I'm like, oh, it's just something crazy Brigham did. And that's cool.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Around. What year was this?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:09:04] This was this year. 2014.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] Holy moly. Okay, last year.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:09:09] Yeah. Yeah. So last year it was April. April 2014.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Okay, so about a year ago.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:09:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] All right.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:09:16] And so, wow. That was a. That was a fast, also long year. And so we were so excited. We were thrilled. Yay. Joseph didn't practice. Look at me. Brigham did a lot of crazy stuff. This was one of Brigham's crazy things. We'll just let Brigham own it. And then the essays came out and that just was like. It all came crashing down. And it was just like. That was probably the most steep. Well, one of the most steep spirals of my faith crisis.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Why, I mean, why? The church is being honest. They're telling the true story and the essays are, you know, they're coming clean.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:09:57] I think it's because we all. We all. I mean, somebody online said it and that Brigham does a lot of crazy things. And so we just. Oh, Brigham, Brother Brigham. He was kind of a crackpot, but we love him. He's like that crazy uncle. But when it's Joseph, it's so much more legitimate. It's the same thing as the temple lot case where Brigham knew to make this legitimate, he had to prove Joseph practiced polygamy. And so all that proof, just laying it at Joseph and just how he practiced it and the dishonesty and the marrying 14 year old, it all just came back and I just. Everything just crashed. It felt so much more real. I mean, if Brigham did it, then we'll deal with that in the next life. But if Joseph did it, that adds so much legitimacy, which I think everybody knows. And that was a big issue why everyone was trying to get the church to admit that Joseph had practiced it. But then that adds a lot more concern too, that, well, then is that going to be something that's expected of me? And I just. That was Just a bridge I couldn't cross. That was too much. That was my line. And so it all just came down. And Kirk and I had some really late night discussions and I was praying like I'd never prayed before. And it was. I started pouring my heart out like I've never poured out my heart out, poured out my heart in prayer. And I was just praying. I was like, you know, God, I worship you. I believe you're a good God and that you love us. This makes me sick. Everything inside of me recoils at this. And either help me understand and be able to deal with it, or please give me an answer that wasn't right so I can move forward in my life because I can't keep having this come back and be something I have to deal with. And I just got this answer that it wasn't of God and just peace, like, peace I've never felt. It was really wonderful. So we just. I mean, our conversations then changed from, well, if this isn't from God, then we need to discuss this. And I mean, we went through section 132 after the essays came out, and we were just. There was so much there that made us so upset and that we don't really believe. I mean, we don't believe single people are going to serve us. We don't believe that a man can just. If his wife says she doesn't want him to take another wife, he can just do it anyways. I mean, these aren't things we really believe, but they're things that are in our canon.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Yeah. Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants is crazy. And I would venture to say that most Mormons have never read it. And if they've read it, they haven't really thought about it because it's awful, right?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:12:49] It is. I honestly, until the essays came out, and I know this is like, not the Mormon thing you're ever supposed to admit, but in seminary we read, like, the first three verses of it, I think in conjunction with section 131. And then I never read any of the rest of it, ever. I was afraid of it. I didn't want to read it. I didn't want to hear what it said. And after I read it, it was. It was terrible. And it was just as bad as I had thought it was going to be. So I really had to take that to God because that was my breaking point.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Yeah. And the answer you got was that what?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:13:30] That it wasn't of God, it wasn't expected of me, it wasn't Something we needed to do to be with God again. That. That all these confusing things that were upsetting about how Joseph had practiced it, all these things that they weren't of God, that was just, God isn't in that chapter. And that was just kind of the answer I got in a nutshell. That's not where God is.

Kirk's Blog Post on Polygamy and D&C 132

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Okay, so, Kirk, how did we go from Lindsay arriving at that conclusion to you deciding to write a blog post?

Kirk Van Allen [00:14:05] The conclusion, I think, was after we kind of went over DNC132. We were in the heat of it, the moment, and we said, okay, this is getting intense. We got to figure out the source. What is the source of all this? And what does the canon say, our scripture say about this? We knew, obviously, it was 132. So, like I said, we sat down in our living room, we pulled it up, and we went verse by verse through it. And immediately that's what kind of gave life to the blog post. And immediately we noticed lots of problems with it. And we went through and followed all the footnotes through, and we went through and studied Abraham and Jacob and how they practiced it. And then we coupled, you know, just took that chapter and meshed it with what we knew about history so far. And we're not historians, but we could tell already there was just problems with it. And it's not something a scriptorian or any, you know, learned man you might say would have to see. I mean, this is any. Any person in the church looking at that scripture, I think, has mental gymnastics to do or is going to be confused by it. And I think that at that point we said, well, this is just so obvious that we're in denial if we don't think that we don't believe this.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] Okay, so tell us the name of the blog, Kirk.

Kirk Van Allen [00:15:35] The name of the blog is Mormonverse.com I originally started. It wasn't supposed to just be this critical blog. I have. I've always had a plan for it, and it happened to be. That was my first post, and then my next post was going to be one that praised the church. And I'm still in the writing that. I've been busy lately, but I want to write a. A post about something that praises the church and something. A doctrine that I like. And then the next post was going to be something critical because, you know, I think there's lots of great things in the church. I like being a Mormon, but this was something that I find needs to be talked about. And I think when I actually, I wrote it all up. And my wife and I had a discussion whether we should post it or not. And we talked about it several days, and we wrote it up, and I let Lindsay look at it. And after several nights of thinking about it, I was driving home and they were talking. I can't even remember what it was, but they're talking about a story. They were talking about a story on the radio about how this person was afraid. And it just clicked with me that I needed to post this, we need to talk about this, because I was afraid to. That was the first red flag. If we're afraid to, then it needs to be talked about.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Yeah, that's. I mean, that's been. One of my biggest concerns is people are like, why do you have to go so negative? Why do you have to make a big deal of things? And I'm like, man, if we can't talk openly about our fears, our concerns, our doubts, what type of community is this? What type of religion isn't strong enough to sustain? Go ahead.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:17:19] And it's not really an opinion if you can't talk about it. I mean, that's like North Korea. North Koreans can have any opinion they want. They just can't talk about it. I mean, I don't think that's what the kingdom of God is. I mean, I don't think that God doesn't want us to discuss these things if we are going at it from a spirit of love and understanding. I mean, Kirk was really clear that this is his opinion and that we're trying to learn. We're trying to learn. We want more light. I mean, at the end of my post, we discussed, you know, asking the brethren, we would love more light. We would love more understanding. Obviously, this is confusing. This is confusing for a lot of people. Please help us understand. Please, please. We'd love some revelation to help us understand this.

Deep Dive into D&C 132 and Its Problems

John Dehlin [00:18:11] So do you guys mind opening, kind of opening up the essay on your. On your computers, if you're able? I'm kind of asking this to you on the spot. And let's just go through some of your biggest concerns with DNC132. We won't spend an hour on this. Maybe we'll just spend 20 minutes. But let's just talk about your biggest concerns with section 132 and why people should be alarmed and disturbed about what's in there. Who wants to lead us?

Kirk Van Allen [00:18:46] Well, I think my biggest concern with the chapter is the chapter where it discusses if you get married in the new and everlasting covenant, and as long as you're married in the new and everlasting covenant. And if you commit any crime short of murder, then you'll be saved in the kingdom of God. And it really does say. I'm paraphrasing, but it really does say that you'll be beaten with a few stripes and saved at the last day. And the Book of Mormon says that those are wicked people that say that. And this is what's in the dnc. It's contradictory to the Book of Mormon. It's contradictory to what I believe, and I think everybody believes that you can't, you know, commit kidnapping or rape or extortion or anything else like that and expect to be with God. I mean, I understand about there's repentance, and I don't pretend to judge people, but it's a blanket statement. It's this action that is saving people by getting married instead of. Instead of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ isn't doing the saving now it's this chapter that's doing the saving. And I don't agree with that.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Okay, so that's a significant doctrinal concern. And it has nothing to do with polygamy. But that was a big deal for you.

Kirk Van Allen [00:20:03] Oh, yeah, yeah. And it wasn't just polygamy that I had a problem with. I thought the whole chapter has. Is riddled with problems, but yeah, polygamy obviously is a huge problem too.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Okay, so talk us through some of the main points of your essay. And Lindsay, you can jump in or lead us. Let's just go through section 132 and talk about some of the biggest.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:20:25] Just kidding. I'll go to section 130. I'm looking up there.

Kirk Van Allen [00:20:29] Well, so let's just starting at the beginning if we want to do that. I talk about. I start off with the fruits of the Spirit, and in Galatians, it talks about how that is joy, love, peace, gentleness. And we all know that when we have these conversations about polygamy, that's not what we're having. We have thoughts of confusion, we have thoughts of disgust in ways. And so it doesn't have the fruits of the spirit to begin with the thought of polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] Right.

Kirk Van Allen [00:21:02] And so right there, a big part of Mormonism is how we feel about something. That's the spirit. And I believe that's the spirit saying. Or that's that moral. You know, that moral morality in you that is saying that this is bad.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] Right. What if it's just saying that it's bad for you? But. But it wasn't bad for Joseph

Kirk Van Allen [00:21:28] and That could be. But here's the problem. It says that if you know this law, you have to obey it. It says that in D&C.132. So once again I told. I've said this before, but I don't know, maybe polygamy is permitted in heaven. Maybe there's three people out there that find this the best form of marriage. I'm not going to judge them, but it's compulsory. This is the highest order of heaven, is polygamy. And so we are either under the impression that we'll have to practice this if we get to the celestial kingdom, or at least Zina Huntington was compelled. Emma Smith was compelled. And so why would that be of God if the compulsion behind polygamy was there? I don't believe that either.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Okay.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:22:12] I was going to say a big issue with the compulsion is, I mean, since I was small, primary age, again and again and again I've been told that God will not infringe on our agency. That was what the war in heaven was about. That's what this life is about, that the agency is paramount and God will not infringe on our agency. And that's why people can get gang raped and killed and that's why women and children can get thrown into fiery pits. And that God is not going to infringe upon our agency. And yet so many times throughout the story of how polygamy is practiced with Joseph in Nauvoo and I think even in Utah, and throughout section 132, there is so much compulsion, you better do this or I am going to destroy you. You better do this. An angel with a drawn sword is going to kill me if you don't marry me. On and on and on. That's not the God I was taught that we worship. I mean, this is a God who is saying, you better do this or somebody else is going to die. Or you better do this or else I will destroy this person. Who is that God? That is not the God I was taught that respects my agency and respects all of our agency. And I just don't see that in section 132. That's not there. There's very much. I will destroy you. The hail said, well, we don't know when that will happen. Whether you get destroyed here, get destroyed later, destroyed is destroyed. So all of this compulsion does not fit with the God that respects agency. And so I just don't see that in section 132. I don't see the respect for our agency.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] If I understand the way that Joseph would often present, you know, polygamy to some of the young women that he propositioned. He would kind of isolate them in a room and sort of give them 24 hours to either agree or not. He would promise this young woman that not only her, but her entire family would be saved in the celestial kingdom if she agreed, but that if she didn't, you know, she might face, you know, damnation or peril. And it just, it's not just, it's not just compulsory in DNC 132, the way, the way it was communicated to many of these young teenage girls. It was also ghastly when you consider the amount of power, you know, that Joseph Smith had at the time. He was, he was propositioning people.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:24:51] Well, and even when the immigrants would come to Utah and they'd been told the missionaries specifically saying, no, no, we don't practice that. They come to Utah, oh, we need you to be this polygamist's wife. We need you to marry this person. And I mean, you just sold everything. You just left all your friends, probably a significant portion of your family, you just joined this brand new religion, you traveled halfway across the world and now you don't speak the language very well. And now your religious leaders tell you you have to marry, be somebody's fourth or fifth wife. I mean, you don't have a lot of options at that point. You probably have no money, you have no way to go back home. I mean, they were in a tough situation. And I just feel like there was so much compulsion.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] And if you read the Nauvoo Expositor that William Law produced as he was exposing Joseph Smith for his polygamy, which Joseph was publicly denying, which is also a problem. You'll read in there the harrowing accounts of how these immigrants were treated and manipulated. And it really is heartbreaking. Okay, so back to DNC132. What else is in the essay that you guys expressed a concern about? And we'll talk about the Hales response after. So we'll save that.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:26:08] I really dislike versus 61 through 63. And I talked a lot about Gina with or to Gina about this. And again, if you read this as a woman, read it as a woman, that your consent doesn't matter. And I know that's really been in the news a lot lately. What is a woman's consent? What does that mean? Or anybody's consent really. And in DNC section 132 versus 61 63, that. I mean, I could just read it. It says, and again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood. If any man espouse a virgin and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent. And if he espouse the second, and they are virgins and have vowed to no other man, then he is justified. He cannot commit adultery, for they are given unto him. For he cannot commit adultery with that which belongeth unto him and to none else. And then it goes on and it says, but if one or either of the 10 virgins after she is espoused. Because in verse 62, you can have 10 virgins, but after she is espoused shall be with another man, she has committed adultery and shall be destroyed. For they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth according to my commandment and to fulfill the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal world, for they may bear the souls of men. And it goes on to verse 64, and it says, if any man have a wife who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed. So in verse 61, we are told, well, you need to ask your wife. But if you've explained this to your wife and she says no, then I'll destroy her and do what you want. I mean, really, God does not care what that first wife thinks. I don't believe that. I don't believe that God does not care what that first wife thinks or that wife will be destroyed and that husband can do what he wants. That's not an equal partnership. And like I told Gina, the church has been really, really discussing a lot recently how this is an equal partnership between men and women. They've really been emphasizing that. That's all gone by verse 64. By verse 64, men do what you want. If you've taught your wife this principle and she doesn't want to live it, then I'll destroy her and you take another nine wives. That's cool. You have my permission. I mean, that kind of sounds like a good old boys club. That doesn't really sound like an equal partnership.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] Yeah, and the virgin thing just seems so bizarre. Like, what if a woman had an indiscretion or was raped or whatever, even against her will, if she's not a virgin now, she's not, you know, even if she repents, she's not qualified for eternal salvation under this law. That's weird, right?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:29:03] Well, and how this was always explained to me growing up was that this was about the widows, that all these women were widows and they couldn't get across the prairie and their children were going to starve. And so we've got to marry these women. Well, Nothing in Section 132 is says this is how you take care of the widows. It's all about the virgins. Widows aren't virgins. And so there's no way that this was just supposed to apply to widows. There's no rules here about what you do with a widow, just what you do with a virgin, and that you're only justified if it's a virgin. So there's nothing here about the widow. There's nothing in this law about this. I'm instituting this to take care of the widows. I mean, that's even slightly more palatable than talking about the virgins. I mean, it just feels like it's really Old Testament y here, which I thought that was all fulfilled in Christ. So I don't know why the God of the Old Testament is showing up again.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Yeah, and that's part of what's confusing about Mormonism. It wants to be both a restoration of all things and kind of a New Testament church simultaneously. And it's hard to do both. But also, it's just worth noting that as you kind of mentioned, Joseph Smith wasn't just marrying virgins, although he was marrying 14 year old virgins, but he was also marrying other people's wives and he was lying to Emma and hiding it from Emma. So he wasn't obeying the law of Sarah because he was, he was not getting consent. And so Joseph didn't even follow DNC132, which is crazy. Right?

Kirk Van Allen [00:30:35] Right.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:30:35] Yeah. Well, and, and something somebody else had brought up that, that I thought was really just powerful for, for me is, John, if tomorrow Elijah came to you and he said, I'm restoring the sealing power, you've never heard about it before. You can be with your wife forever. You can be families all the way back to Adam. This is going to be fantastic. You can be with everybody. Who are you going to tell first?

John Dehlin [00:30:58] Yeah, my wife.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:31:00] Yes, absolutely. And I think anyone in a healthy relationship with their spouse would say that. But we hear about all these other wives, all these other marriages. I mean, Emma isn't introduced to this until 1843. I mean, between the dedication of the Kirtland Temple and 1843, there's seven years. There's seven years and like 20 wives in between him explaining this to Emma I have a huge problem with that. I have a huge problem with that. Emma should have been the first one that night. Listen, what I found. Sweetie, Isn't this fantastic? And yet we don't hear. She doesn't hear about it for seven years, and he's married multiple other women.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] Yeah. All right, Kirk, what else does your essay say about D and C? 132.

Kirk Van Allen [00:31:50] Let's see. Another topic that I find really disturbing and really sad for all of our friends who aren't members and all of our members who are single. I was actually just looking for it as you asked. Help me out, honey. Okay, here we are. Verse, verses 15 through 16. It talks about, therefore, when. This is verse 16. Therefore, when they are out of the world, they neither marry or are given marriage, but are appointed angels in heaven, which are angels, which angels are ministering, servants to minister for those who are worthy of far more and an exceeding and eternal weight of glory. So the prior verse, it talks about how. It talks about single people. Basically, if someone is single, they are neither given in marriage or taken in marriage. Marriage doesn't happen in the next life. And we don't believe that as contemporary morons, we believe that everybody will be taken care of. But that's not what our canon says right here. And the Hells tried to spin this as well, but, you know, if it says. If it means what it says, then single people don't have a chance of getting married, and even worse, you'll just be servants to married people. So it sounds really good for me and my wife, but I feel bad for my aunt who's single. You know, she's going to be serving me and only be an angel. And that's not consistent with modern doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] Right, okay. Yeah, that's pretty bleak.

Kirk Van Allen [00:33:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] All right, you got Lindsay. You got another one.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:33:28] Oh, geez.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] We can bounce back and forth a bit. We'll go back and forth.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:33:33] Yeah, yeah. No, I was going to say the very first verse. We read it, and we were like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Because it says, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph, that in as much as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David, and Solomon, my servants, attaching to the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines. And we first read that, and we went, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Isaac only had one wife. And Moses is very ambiguous as to. I mean, there's two women mentioned, but then there's Also, one of the words that was translated into Ethiopian could also somebody talking about could mean someone from the Middle East. And so maybe that was his first wife and everyone was upset because he hadn't married from the tribe of Israel. And he was telling everyone too. So Moses may have had one wife or two, but we don't know simultaneously. I mean, there is nothing in the Scriptures that even indicates that. And then in second Nephi chapter or Jacob chapter two, it is very clear. The Lord says david and Solomon had multiple wives, which thing was abhorrent to me. And people try to explain that away and say, well, it was just the ones that he didn't give them, because that is what it says in section 132. But that is not what Jacob2 says. It says that having multiple wives was an abomination and goes on to talk about how the Lamanites were more righteous because they only had one wife. And so, I mean, except for.

John Dehlin [00:35:12] Except for if the Lord wants to raise up a seed. Right.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:35:16] Well. Oh, I have so many issues with that verse too. I mean, it.

Kirk Van Allen [00:35:21] The problem with that, the problem with that one is it we're trying to find this, like, nugget to explain DNC132 and them to be complementary. But Jacob in Jacob to the God just goes through and slams polygamy. He slams it, slams it, slams it, slams it. But maybe it's okay, but not in this case because everybody that practices it, you know, the women of the or, they're. They're committing whoredoms and, and the men are doing this and goes on. So it's just like this one quick sentence, and it's just not consistent with the rest of the chapter. Why would the Lord slam it, say it's not of him, it's a whoredom, an abomination. But it's okay. Sometimes we're reaching if we're thinking that that's okay sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Yeah, it's certainly really confusing. It's also important to note the former Section 101 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Right.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:36:13] Oh, yeah, talk about that.

Kirk Van Allen [00:36:16] Go ahead, Lindsay.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:36:17] Okay. I was going to say, well, in 1876, Brigham Young replaced that which the section 101 said, you know, we believe in the marriage between one man and one woman, except in a case where a spouse dies in which either is able to remarry and, you know, just, you know, basic understanding of marriage. But in 1876, when D.C. section 132 was added, that was removed.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] Yeah. So for, you know, what, 50 years, almost 50 years of the Church's life in the Scriptures, Doctrine and Covenants, said one man, one woman, right?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:36:54] Oh, yeah, well, and Joseph referred to that many times in Nauvoo and other leaders did as they were preaching in Europe. See, our scriptures say one man, one woman. That's the Lord's standard. That's all we believe. And then that was just yanked out. And this was thrown in in 1876. And so, I mean, we're living one man, one woman right now. That's what the Church has said the new standard is. So DNC section 132 isn't. I mean, it doesn't fit with what the standard is now. I don't know why it still can. And I mean, when the Brigham made the switch, it was because of the lifestyle they were living. So I still don't know why section 132 is canon. I mean, President Monson has the same power to change it that Brigham did. And so, I mean, saying, if you have this law, you have to live it. We aren't living it.

Kirk Van Allen [00:37:46] Yeah, well, and then we further change it with the proclamation of the family, which I don't know if it's considered actual doctrine, but I talk about this in the blog. I say the proclamation of the family. I mean, DNC132 is foreign to this. And it talks about how men are supposed to provide women, nurture. And if you believe that kind of system, even that runs into problems with the fathers being good fathers. Because now these polygamous men who have, like Brigham Young having 55 wives, how could he spend time with 55 wives? He could not be a husband according to the proclamation of the family. That would be a good husband. He could only see this wife could give only a week of time through the whole year if he was going to share his time equally among all of his wives. And it's just not consistent with the proclamation of the family, of being good, nurturing, good parents. Anyway. So I think I point that out just to say these people talk about how monogamy is evil. Who was it? It was George Q. Cannon who said that Rome fell because it was a monogamous nation. And now it's funny because modern Christians have used that to be like, oh, Rome fell because it was a gay nation. I'm sure many people have heard that, which is absolutely ridiculous. But it's just. It's not consistent to what we believe today.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] All right, Lindsay, so give us your last concerns about. About DNC 132. What else do you Want to make sure to mention, you know, in this episode,

Lindsay Van Allen [00:39:32] I think. Is just that it's just confusing that everyone I've talked to, seminary teachers, other people in the ward, you know, we met with the bishop once and well, I didn't, but Kirk did and the stake president and everyone says, well, we don't know. We just don't know. We just don't know. There's no clarity here. Nobody knows. And we're all just hoping it doesn't mean what it says. And so we need clarity. We're all confused. Nobody knows. And God is not a God of confusion. And we have a prophet. That's the thing where I don't understand why we aren't supposed to talk about this. We have a prophet, we have an open canon. We believe that God can continue to give us light. And in the early days of the church, he was continually as the people were asking Joseph questions, as concerns came up, as people were confused, there was continual light, given continual revelation. And people are confused, people are really confused. Nobody wants to touch us with a ten foot pole. Everyone is just deferring to somebody else. And we have a prophet, we have a mouthpiece for God, we have an open canon. So I think we should look at this, we should look at how we practice today, what we teach, what are the brethren saying? And do we still need section 132? Do we need clarification on section 132? I mean when the people have a question, I think God wants to answer it. We want to serve him more faithfully and in a better way, in a more understanding way. And so I think the fact that everybody is confused, I think this would be a perfect moment for us to, to ask the prophet for revelation or to ask him to ask God. I mean we see that pattern so many times in the Book of Mormon. People have questions, they go to the prophet, the prophet asks God, they get an answer. I don't think we are different. God doesn't love us less than he loves his other children. We are all confused. We are all hurting. Let's get an answer. Let's continue to have open canon. I think it is just as important now as it was 20 years ago, 100 years ago, 150 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] Yeah, it's almost like that is supposed to be what separates us from the other churches. We have a prophet. Yeah, we have living scripture. And yet it's like, when was the last time we added or took away a section from the Doctrine of Covenants? It's been forever we're not, we're not. Our prophets aren't prophesying, seeing or revelating and, and it, and we're sitting here with these kind of egregious examples of scripture, with all these opportunities for really clear direction from God. I mean, when do we need revelation like we do now regarding women, regarding LGBT individuals, that the church could be adding scripture and yet they won't do it. The prophets won't step up and do what. What is supposed to be the differentiating positive factor for all of Mormonism? Right.

Kirk Van Allen [00:42:33] Absolutely. Absolutely. Great. It's really an opportunity for our leaders. But I mean, I'm afraid, I mean, last conference it was much of, you know, we can't lead you astray and you know, doctrine's never changing and that type of rhetoric instead of, okay, let's hear your concerns. And I think we need to see more of that. I think a lot of people are being disenfranchised by not being allowed to ask questions. And I think we're kind of seeing the results of that, some little backlash.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] Yeah.

Kirk Van Allen [00:43:05] And, and I'm not, I'm not trying to intentionally, you know, you know, caused discontent or anything like that, but there is discontent. And this, this needs to be addressed. Not from a top down approach, but as you see it now, I think it's, we're seeing it from a bottom up and I don't think that's bad. I think that shows that people really are really concerned.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] Yeah. And they are. Kirk, any other thing, any other thing you want to say about DNC 132 before we move on to the reactions to it?

Kirk Van Allen [00:43:38] No, I honestly was going to say the exact same thing. Lindsay was going to say that it's an opportunity for revelation. But I think, once again, I just, I think everyone should definitely go through it and read it. And we've had, you know, lots of friends tell us that they've gone back and read through it and, and they feel the same way. So anyways, I guess we can transition to the next.

Facing a Church Disciplinary Council

John Dehlin [00:44:02] Okay.

Kirk Van Allen [00:44:03] So.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Yeah. So what's been, what's been the reaction to your, to your blog post?

Kirk Van Allen [00:44:09] Well, overwhelmingly, I mean, I can't believe I've gotten 120 comments on it. We've had 40,000 views and I mean, just two posts and that's, that's more than I could have imagined. But overwhelmingly, we've had private messages on Facebook, we've had private comments, comments on the blog saying, thank you for bringing this up. You said it perfectly. And so it's been Overwhelmingly supportive. And then, like, you know, we got about three days into this, and we got a call from the bishop and he wanted to talk to us. And we asked him what this was about, and he. He kind of got defensive and was wondering if we were trying to avoid him. And I said, no, I just want to know what this is about. And he said, oh, it's about your blog. And he's a great guy, wonderful bishop, very compassionate man. But he said that he got word from our stake president to have us talk to him. Later we found out the stake president heard from Salt Lake.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:45:17] Well, and I think it's important to note that at this point, I mean, really, the blog had been up, like, four days, and we were. I think one day we were really excited because there were like, 17 views and like, one was from New Zealand. We were really, really excited. So, I mean, prior to this meeting with the bishop, I mean, really, maybe 40 views total. So, I mean, it was just a piddly nothing blog, and we were okay with that.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] And then. And then what. What made it.

Kirk Van Allen [00:45:45] And then we. We announced. Well, we said that there was a disciplinary council, and immediately it exploded. And so really, the funny thing is Salt Lake made this viral, not me.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] So. So somebody, you know, they always say that it's a local matter, It's a local matter. But. But, you know, do you have reason to believe that Salt Lake contacted your bishop or stake president?

Kirk Van Allen [00:46:10] Oh, our stake president said that he got a call from area authority and said salt Lake. He mentioned Salt Lake?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:46:18] Well, he said. He said one thing. He said. He's like, well, we said, this is not a big deal. This is a blog post. We're asking questions. He said, well, if it's not a big deal, why did Salt Lake call me and tell me to take care of it? And Kirk and I did. At that point, we looked at each other, and I was like, what? Salt Lake contacted you? And I think he realized at that point because he kind of played it down. He was like, well, you know, it is kind of a problem. And they go out of their way to say that this all originates locally in the ward with the bishop or the congregation. But our stake president was very open that this originated in Salt Lake, that he only knew about this because of Salt Lake, like three or four days after the blog had been posted online. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] So the church has to have people who are trolling the Internet, and this should maybe cause believing Mormons or active Mormons concern. So there are people either employed by the church or apologists who are literally watching what's posted, watching what's being blogged, turning that information in, and then the church is contacting people's ecclesiastical leaders based on what's being communicated on the Internet. Right.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:47:34] I was going to say it had to be somebody who could connect Kirk Van Allen to our stake to contact our stake president. I mean, it had to be somebody that had that kind of information because I know the Internet's not super private, but we've never talked about who our stake president is. We've never talked about who our bishop is. I mean, most people. My Facebook still had me living in Rigby, Idaho, so, I mean, not like most people even knew where I lived, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] But someone's paying attention.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:48:04] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, somebody found it. Three days. I mean, we literally had 45 views. Somebody found it and told the stake president to take care of it.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] Okay, so your main meeting at first was with the stake president or the bishop?

Kirk Van Allen [00:48:17] Bishop.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] And did you try and reason with the bishop?

Kirk Van Allen [00:48:20] Oh, our bishop is very understanding. I think he. I think he was just trying to do what he thought he should do and asked me to take it down. Very understanding. And I think he kind of just tried his best to reason with me, but, I mean, I took away from that that he wanted. Well, this was kind of the idea that we had one week to either take it down or edit it in such a way that. That it reflected that we believed or at least that we weren't emphatically rejecting DNC 132. And so we had that kind of going into the next week, and we decided that we were going to keep it up. And I told the bishop, and then my stake president contacted us at that point. But the bishop, I mean, he understood a little bit about the essays, but I don't know if he had read them completely. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you need to talk to him about that.

John Dehlin [00:49:22] Okay, so what was your conversation with your stake president like?

Kirk Van Allen [00:49:25] He actually came over to our house and very cordial once again. He's a good guy. We like him a lot.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:49:34] But he hadn't read the essays. He didn't know what they were.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] He didn't know about the church's essays?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:49:39] No, we actually. It was kind of an awkward moment because Kirk said, oh, well, you know, the essays, the church essays, the gospel topic essays that the church has put out. And he said, yeah, no. And we thought we were joking. So we're like, ha, ha, yeah, okay, it's the essays. And he said, no, wait, I Don't even know what you're talking about. We're like, oh, the essays, you know, like, about blacks in the priesthood and Joseph Smith and polygamy and the book of Abraham. And he just looked at us, he's like, no, I have no idea what those are.

Kirk Van Allen [00:50:06] Like, he knew what they were. He just. I don't think he read them.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Yeah, and that's. That's a big deal, because these leaders need to know this stuff.

Kirk Van Allen [00:50:17] Yeah, exactly. He knew of them, but like Lindsey said, I think he didn't know them. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:22] And so what was that conversation like?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:50:26] It was a lot of trying to explain why somebody could think that polygamy wasn't super awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it was.

Kirk Van Allen [00:50:37] I mean, it was kind of an approach that we shouldn't worry about it because it doesn't affect us anymore.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:50:44] And I think that comes from a place of privilege where people say, I mean, no offense to men out there, but if it was switched and it was like, oh, well, when you get married to your wife, she can take maybe in the next life, all the other men that are single that died in wars and died as babies and. And she can marry them, and so you'll have to share her with them. But it's okay, because you won't even mind, because men are just visual creatures anyway, so they aren't really that emotional. It's okay. You won't mind. And I mean, once you flip it like that, even just discussing it with people, they really don't like the idea of the polyandry that was practiced. But I don't think men think about how this is like wrenching a woman's heart, that this relationship that we're told our whole lives in the church, that getting married is the most important thing we can do. It's our job to nurture, to build this family. And then it's like, oh, but in the next life, you're going to have to share your husband. And if you don't, you're selfish, because those poor sisters that didn't get married, you're just keeping them from exaltation. If you're selfish and want to keep this family that you worked so hard on to yourself. And so I was trying to explain why that hurts for women and why polygamy still exists and our sealing practices and why it can still be a problem. And if he wasn't familiar with a lot of those issues, there are things that I think he'd had to think about. I've had interactions with several friends who had major issues with Sealing practices and their family sealing issue is a mess. And they don't know who their children are going to be sealed to, and they don't know how their family is going to be arranged and in the next life. And they're just told, well, God will sort it out. He loves you. But that's not really a lot of consolation right now when you don't know who your children are going to be sealed to or how your family is going to be arranged in the next life, or even if you're going to get to be with your family. There are a lot of people hurting, There's a lot of people confused, and a lot of people that want clarification. I think the majority of the conversation was just trying to explain that this is still something that affects people today.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] And did you get a sense he really wanted to understand and really wanted to listen and learn?

Kirk Van Allen [00:52:58] And, I mean, at the end, I think he got a little defensive, saying, you know, I don't know what you're talking about in its entirety. And so he kind of threw his hands up and said, you know, I don't know, but, you know, and he kind of bore his testimony. But at that point, we. I think he was going on the defensive to say, well, I guess I'm going to hell, you know, because I didn't study it like you guys did, and I must be wrong. And I said, no, no, no, no. Like, I don't think I should judge you for not knowing it, but you shouldn't be. I'm getting judged and I might be excommunicated by studying it, by coming to a different conclusion, by researching it. Now I'm condemned. But for the people that haven't researched it and come to the told conversation topic, the approved topic, once they come to that conclusion, then you're okay. And I just. And I said, you're condemning me for studying it. And I think he. At this point, we kind of came to an agreement that we didn't agree. And he asked if we wanted to meet with the 70, and we said, yeah, we sure would.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] So how'd that go?

Kirk Van Allen [00:54:11] You know, honestly, he. We told him, are you comfortable saying

John Dehlin [00:54:14] who it is, or would you rather not say who it is?

Kirk Van Allen [00:54:16] I'd rather not.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:54:17] Yeah, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] That's fine. And so you met with the 70 recently?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:54:22] Yeah, on Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:54:24] Okay. And how was that?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:54:26] He was kind, and I think he truly did want to understand. But again, I think it was a lot of. I don't think he'd ever thought about it very Much. And he kind of said as much. He had never really thought about it. And so, I mean, it's hard to. I think it's hard to go from a position of never having even thought about it to understanding why a lot of people feel hurt and confused and worried about it in a 30 minute meeting. And so I think he did. And I also think he, I don't know, wanted us to not worry about it. But I mean, we still don't have answers. And so there's no magic wand to just be like, don't worry, let it go. It still is a concern. It's still something that's in our canon. And until we have further light about it, it's still confusing and it's still worrisome.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] Was there anything about your meeting with him that surprised you?

Kirk Van Allen [00:55:38] I don't know.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:55:38] He didn't, he didn't know about the essays? He hadn't read them?

Kirk Van Allen [00:55:41] Yeah, I guess so.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:55:43] I guess that was probably the most shocking. I don't. Who has read these? Has anyone in leadership position read these essays? Yeah, please send those people to talk to me. I'd like to talk somebody who's actually read these.

Kirk Van Allen [00:55:56] And, and the funny thing is his major concern was the fence sitters, the people that are deciding to be Mormon or not. And he said, well, you're probably convincing them not to be Mormon. And we reiterated this time and time again that no, we didn't do anything. I didn't do any of this. This is written in our scriptures. I'm just putting it up on a blog and saying these are in context with quotes with the practice and how it was preached. And there you go. I'm giving. I didn't do anything. This is not any of my teachings. This is the teachings of the church. But he kept on reiterating that we had to think about the people that were sitting on the fence and we could be leading them down the wrong road. So that was the main topic.

John Dehlin [00:56:46] It's such a weird position that the brethren don't have enough confidence in the members that they can receive inspiration from the Spirit and confront reality, their own scriptures in this case, and have their testimonies survive that. I mean, in effect, what they're saying is people's testimonies are so fragile and so flimsy that they can't even be informed about what's in their own scriptures for risk of them falling away. What kind of plan is that from a Heavenly Father if people are going to leave because they read his own scriptures?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:57:26] Well, and I believe it was David O. McKay and I could be misquoting here, but wasn't it David O. McKay that said something to the effect that if we have the truth, no research can destroy that and if we have not the truth, then it needs to be exposed. And I mean, I love that candidness that, that let's search this out. Because if it is true, then nothing that's uncovered, nothing in these essays will stop that from being the case. But that we can still discuss this, we can still learn from this, we can still explore our faith with all the warts and craziness and funny history. I mean, there's no religion that doesn't have some parts of its history they don't love, but that we can discuss this and move forward as an LDS community. I mean, Joseph Smith said that he doesn't want to be trammeled for his beliefs and that. I mean, there's this whole spectrum of Judaism where from everything from the super, super orthodox to those who are like, eh, my parents were Jews and sometimes I light some candles. And I mean, I think in LDS theology to say, you know, I don't believe Section 132, but there's so much else that's amazing. I just don't believe this. That feels kind of ridiculous to be threatened with being kicked out because of that. Because of one section of DNC that President Hinckley said he didn't believe was doctrine and that we don't practice and that we really work hard to distance ourselves from that. Seems kind of out there. It seems like an extreme measure.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] Yeah. So how'd you leave it with the area president?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:59:12] I thought it was on happy note. I recommended he eat at the Copper Onion when he was in Salt Lake because that's always a good time.

Kirk Van Allen [00:59:21] He said he was gonna, you know, take it and, you know, ask some people some questions about it. So I know he's gonna go talk to other 70s about it and we're supposed to hear back from him in two weeks and follow up. So we will see the story continues.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] Did he ask you to take it down?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:59:40] He asked us to think about it.

Kirk Van Allen [00:59:42] Yeah. He said to listen to general conference and think about the fence sitters, so.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] And, and what about your stake president? Did he ask you to take it down?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:59:51] He really hasn't talked to us at all.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] Your stake president?

Lindsay Van Allen [00:59:57] No.

John Dehlin [00:59:58] Yeah. After that.

Lindsay Van Allen [00:59:59] Not that. That one meeting. We had that one meeting. We haven't heard from him since.

John Dehlin [01:00:02] Okay.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:00:02] Not one word.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] No word from him. Okay. So let's talk briefly about the hails, I mean, they've become kind of the new. The new thugs of Mormon apologetics. But, but tell us, tell us what they did. Tell us what they did to your kneecaps. Basically,

Conversations with Church Leadership

Lindsay Van Allen [01:00:22] I, you know, I would love to have dinner with them some night. I think we would agree a lot more than we would disagree. And so, I mean, I think it looks like we're really feuding online, and I have no animosity towards them. I think they're probably lovely people who are on this journey with us trying to do the best they can, and they're just looking at things differently than we are. And I think, I mean, it got heated at the end and I mean, I took some potshots and they took some potshots and.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] But were they attacking you guys?

Lindsay Van Allen [01:01:01] Yes, I think they were in different places, but I can't necessarily speak for them. But I think Brian Hales has done an amazing amount of research and compiled an amazing amount of books, and he's looked at so many documents, and he and Laura have worked tirelessly to compile these things. So I think it must be incredibly frustrating that, that Kirk went through section 132 and wrote this blog post. And I think so many people can relate to it. I think probably because it is. It's us saying, hey, we're your everyday Mormons, just your typical Mormon family. And this is why this is upsetting to us. And I think it's very relatable, and I think it's upsetting to have them have worked so hard and it. They didn't get as much of that response, and it was so relatable. And so I think that was probably extremely frustrating to them. And I can understand that. I can understand why that would be upsetting. And I had some moments of snark in my response, and so that didn't de. Escalate the tension.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] Give us some of the examples of their responses to your essay, of their justifications or excuses.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:02:22] Oh, my favorite is that it doesn't just say virgin. It mostly says wife in section 132. So really what we can think that the Lord meant, my virgin is just wife. And I mean, that is out there even for apologetics. I mean, if we're going to say that in Scripture, usually when the Lord says virgin, he actually just means wife. We've got to change the story of Christ's birth. We've got to change Nephi's vision of Christ's birth. We have to change what Jesus himself

John Dehlin [01:02:57] said, the law of chastity.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:02:59] Yeah, the law of chastity, apparently that just means be a wife. So, you know, I mean, take from that what you will. I mean, there is so much that that changes that it doesn't work. It says virgin everywhere else in scripture it means virgin. I don't think the Lord. I mean, that would be kind of a cruel trick for God to throw virgin in there and be like, just kidding. I meant wife. But you wouldn't know that because in your language, virgin means person who hasn't intimately been with somebody else. I mean, it was just. It doesn't work.

Kirk Van Allen [01:03:33] Well, regardless, once again, who cares? Because if. If virgin means wife, it still doesn't matter because Joseph Smith took other people's wives and he took virgins and he took, you know, women that were pregnant. Yeah. Pregnant women. So, I mean, it doesn't matter even that. Throw that argument out. Who cares? Because we're still not following DNC132. And so, I mean, it's just all this mental gymnastics the Hales have to do.

John Dehlin [01:04:01] Yeah, it's like. It's like, you know, horses and a horse in the Book of Mormon. Maybe they meant a tapir when they said steel swords. They really didn't mean steel. They meant some other form of metal,

Lindsay Van Allen [01:04:12] you know, not carry it.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] Yeah, like, apologists have this awful job of having to explain away really terrible, egregious things and to make themselves look foolish, which is what they do basically.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:04:26] Well, and one thing that I really feel was a disservice, and I feel like it belittled members of the church more than us or whatever, but just typical lay people again and again say, this is too deep, you don't understand. This is too deep, you don't understand. And I feel like if section 132 is so deep that when average member. Joe Blow member. I mean, college educated. My husband and I are college educated. We aren't PhDs, but we aren't completely ignorant that when we look at it, and this is the conclusion we come to, and it very much lines up with the conclusion that Joseph came to and Brigham and. And John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith, that Lorenzo Snowman, all of these people come to these very similar conclusions. And we can see section 132 playing out in that history. And they say, well, you are just looking at it wrong because you don't understand because it's so deep and it's so confusing and you just don't get it because you guys are morons. I think that does a disservice to members of the church. Church that if this Scripture is so hard that we can't understand it and that the early prophets couldn't understand it, then I think that's too hard of Scripture to understand. If only the Hales can understand it, why is it in our canon? And then they have the position where they say you don't understand it. Right. Because this is your interpretation. Well, that was Brigham's interpretation, too. So then you're saying Brigham didn't understand it. And I think that's a position you don't want to be, be it.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] Yeah, they absolutely are contradicting what other prophets, seers, and revelators have interpreted.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:06:07] Yeah. If it doesn't mean what it says, then I would love the clarification from the prophet or from the apostles of what it really does mean. Because I'm just reading it like I was taught to read the Scriptures in seminary and an institute that you read them and you put yourself into it and you try to liken it to yourself. And as I'm doing that with section 132, I'm very dist. Disturbed. And so if I'm not doing it correctly, then I think we need to have a new scripture teaching class that can teach us how to do that, because obviously I'm getting it wrong according to the Hales.

John Dehlin [01:06:39] Kirk, what was your favorite sort of response that the Hales gave?

Kirk Van Allen [01:06:45] Honestly, it was the virgin thing. But, you know, you're putting us on the spot here. I have to.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] No, it's all right. That could be sufficient. That's one for the ages. So it's fine.

Kirk Van Allen [01:06:56] Yeah. Okay. Most of it was honestly confusing. And I'm not just saying I think the Heles are very intelligent, But I honestly thought most of their arguments were very confusing. Not to belittle their writing style or anything. I just did not. Their conclusions did not match. I don't know what a normal person would consider a proper conclusion or a good conclusion. So anyways, that's just my two cents.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Yeah, they're put in the unenviable position of having to explain away terrible things.

Kirk Van Allen [01:07:28] Exactly. It's something that can be explained. And that's what Brigham Young did. And that's what the early apostles did when they had those horrible erroneous quotes where they say that, oh, Rome was a monogamous nation. Or they say, oh, you know, there's a quote from an apostle who says that to have one wife was a small time, small business, you know, and of course they were saying that because they were trying to defend polygamy at the point now we. We're going the other way and we're trying to defend them, but distance ourselves. Polygamy, but, you know, still not. And it. And it becomes even more challenging. And I think that's what they ran into. So to their credit, they tried.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] Yeah, it's just, It's. It's just really sad and unfortunate. All right, so. So, so where. Where are you guys now? Like, what's. What are the next steps?

Next Steps and Possible Excommunication

Kirk Van Allen [01:08:18] Well, the next step, we actually are moving. We're moving back to Idaho and 30 days or so. And so that might throw. If we. If X communications on the table, then we might have a Kate Kelly scenario where records are held. I don't know. The 70 did say he was going to contact us in two weeks, so a little bit of waiting time. I don't know. We'll see. We're going to keep the blog up and, and you'll see more blogs to come. Like I said, there's going to be a nice, you know, praising posts of the church, and then I'm going to do another critical one, but then I'll do another praising. So we'll see. Maybe more posts will land me in trouble or maybe not.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] So let me ask you guys a quick question. Like what? I think the Hales are branding you as apostates. I think, I think I read that. Maybe that's someone else. But, but like.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:09:10] Oh, yeah, in their fourth one, they said, we're on our way out.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] Yeah. So. So are you guys comfortable talking about what you do and don't believe now, or would you rather not?

Kirk Van Allen [01:09:24] We're honestly still exploring.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:09:26] Yeah, I was going to say, I think we're fairly new to the essays. And I mean, really, our faith crisis started eight months ago, like a week before we had our last child. So that was not the best timing. And I think we're just really. It's a lot of information and it's a lot of. A lot of. I mean, as I'm sure you've talked to people for years and years who have been doing this, but it's a lot of information and it's a lot of trying to piece together. Okay, well, let me look at this. How do I feel about this? Okay, let me look at this. How do I feel about this? And, you know, praying and reading the scriptures and just trying to work through, Work through all the information we have. It's a lot. And it's a lot to work through.

Kirk Van Allen [01:10:13] I was going to say we went on a buying frenzy and we ordered a ton of books from Amazon, so we're working our way through. I'm reading the David Bacavoi's book Authoring the Old Testament right now. Lindsay's working on.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:10:26] I'm working on like eight books. This is my Doctrine and Mormon Enigma. Yeah, I would say I'm reading through that again. And David Bachavoy's book and Faith is Not God's Backup Plan, that just came out. We're working on that. So I think we're just, we've got a pile of books and like 30 in our cart on Amazon. And we're just working through, working through, working through it. It's just a process. And it's, I mean, it's, you know, we're just consulting a lot and we're talking and we're just trying to work through it. I mean, it's just so much, so much to work through.

Kirk Van Allen [01:11:03] And honestly, to tell you the truth, we feel better about being here than probably any other time in our lives. We feel good sometimes. I feel like the church kind of belittles us as members and makes us feel like children. And I think we've kind of grown up even being grown ups. We've grown up even more. We feel a lot more compassionate to others. We feel kind of free from being forced to believe everything that's said over the pulpit because we don't, we don't believe in prophetic infallibility anymore. And that's okay. People can make mistakes, but we just, we feel free. We feel good. We feel like we want to follow Jesus Christ's example to a T. And we think we can do that by making good judgment calls on our own and with the help of God.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:11:53] So I think it's focused us a lot more on the Savior, which, I mean, that's where the focus should have been all along. But, you know, letting go of these other things, that's really shifted the focus, which I think has been really important in our family and our marriage and our lives.

John Dehlin [01:12:09] But, but you can see why the brethren are concerned because you're not, it's, it's not really polygamy that you, that you're attacking. I don't think they care about polygamy. I think in the modern LDS Church, almost any doctrine is expendable except for one, which is authority. Right. I mean, what you've done is you've said Joseph Smith erred when he produced a section of the Doctrine and Covenants which has been canonized. And so basically you're saying not only can prophets get it wrong? But the Scriptures can be wrong. And, and that means that if they can be wrong back then, the prophets can be wrong now. And so you're basically attacking, by attacking polygamy, you're attacking the very foundation of the LDS Church.

Kirk Van Allen [01:12:58] Yeah, and I understand that, and I'm going to make a bold statement and, you know, for our family, but I'm going to say that we. We don't believe that this. I believe it's an incorrect doctrine to believe that the church cannot lead us astray. And I've already mentioned that. But I believe that we can't just listen to what they say. That is not the point of life. This is not a point of life to build, and it shouldn't be. Even our church, the church of Jesus Christ, is not the church of prophets. We have to take what the prophets say, study it out. And they are not perfect. And so we need to figure it out for ourselves. That's what faith is about. That is what Jesus Christ is about. We believe in him. I don't need to believe in a human mortal that can make mistakes. And I understand the leaders concern about that, but they've painted themselves into this place. They know they're not perfect. They know that they've made mistakes, doctrinal mistakes, but then they keep on repeating that they can't lead people astray, and it's just not true. And that might land me in more hot water, but I believe that our modern prophet can be a prophet and is a prophet. I believe he can get inspiration from God and tell the people, but I don't believe every literal thing that comes out of their mouth is the word of God.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:14:22] Well, and I think the problem too is it's a more. And I don't have a good word for this, but it's a more mature view of the prophet. I mean, we see these prophets in the Old Testament time and they are running through the streets naked and they are sticking bears on kids who tease them. And we see all these things and we are like, oh, silly Old Testament prophets. And yet we believe that short of sharpening a pencil wrong, that the prophet really doesn't make mistakes and that we can see from patterns in history that they can make mistakes, but that the onus is always on us to find out what God's will is, that we're listening to what the prophet says, and then we need to have it confirmed for ourselves. As long as I can remember, I've been told you can't write anybody's coattails you can't write anybody's coattails. And it was always in the context of, you have to get your own testimony. You can't just believe what your parents believe. Well, I think as members of the church, we have to get our own testimony. We can't just believe what the prophet believed. We have to have that confirmation from God. And I think our church was founded on that. That should be something we should hold so dear that Joseph didn't say, well, the Methodist pastor said his church is most true. And I like that guy a lot. And he's a really, really good guy. So I'm just going to follow him. He went and found out for himself. And that's what our church was founded on. And that in this next conference, when President Monson says X, Y, and Z, the important thing is we need to find out from God if that's true and then we need to act on it, that we need to find out if that's what God wants us to be doing. It's always been on us. It's always been on us. And that the adult version of Mormonism, to realize that it's your responsibility. You can't ride the prophet's coattails. You can't ride anybody else's coattails. You have to find out for yourself. But it is scary, and it's scary to get in that position because then you have to learn to trust the voice inside of you. You have to learn to trust your relationship with God. And that's terrifying. I mean, it really is. It's terrifying to have to get your own answers.

John Dehlin [01:16:40] But the point I was trying to make is that can't you see that you are threatening the very foundation of the church from their perspective?

Kirk Van Allen [01:16:51] I understand, but this is the wrong foundation to have the church is built on. I don't mean this to, like, I'm not fighting the church, but this is the wrong foundation to build on. We believe our foundation is built on Christ. So why are we building this foundation? And why are we threatened by questions when our foundation should be not on men, but Christ? And I understand why they feel threatened, but I think they need to come to realize that, you know, they don't know everything. And we need more answers. And I believe we can get answers for them, but we need it. We're asking. We're asking. This is a plea. And this is this entire. What you're doing, what Gina Colvin's doing, what Lindsay Hanson Park's doing with. You're bringing up issues that need to be addressed. And we're not getting answers. All we get is, you know, stay in the boat. And that's not going to get us through life. We need to go deeper, deeper in what we need to do as people of God's church, if that's really what we think we are.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Right. So what, what will it be like for you guys if one or both of you are excommunicated? Lindsay, how about you?

Kirk Van Allen [01:18:08] I was gonna say Lindsay's in hot water now. She's.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:18:10] I know.

Kirk Van Allen [01:18:12] She might get a call.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:18:14] It's gonna be tricky. It would honestly be more tricky if Kirk was than if I was. And I mean, that's just the reality of the situation. If I'm excommunicated, Kirk can still baptize our daughter. If I'm excommunicated, he can still give priesthood blessings. I mean, It wouldn't change a lot in our day to day worship or in our, I mean, in ordinances and things like that. Other than the fact that I wouldn't have any. It would be really hard, I think. I didn't realize how hard it would be, I think. But just facing that would be extremely difficult. I mean, I've had days where I honestly, when Kirk finally decided we were out on a walk as a family and he decided on the walk, he's like, I've decided I'm going to leave the post up. And I had my first ever anxiety attack and I couldn't breathe and I thought I was going to throw up. And I was, I was. I've never had one of those before. It was extremely scary. I thought I was going to die and it was really terrifying. And I mean, staring at that, you know. Yeah. I mean, it is. It's a scary thing. Even after you've had, you know, a faith expansion and even after you've looked at all these issues, that's still. It's mentally terrifying. It really is.

Kirk Van Allen [01:19:53] I'm honestly. This is not what my parents or anybody else wants to hear, but I'm not scared because if God or if God really holds this excommunication up as the end of my salvation, then what the heck are we doing on this planet? Because I'm using the best morality, the best reasoning, the best research that I can use. I mean, what else can God ask of me? I'm having faith in him that will figure this out and everything.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:20:22] Well, and that we got an answer.

Kirk Van Allen [01:20:23] Yeah, exactly. Anyways.

John Dehlin [01:20:27] Well, so you guys are. You guys feel like you're gonna make it through this no matter what happens, huh?

Kirk Van Allen [01:20:33] That's right.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:20:33] Yeah.

Kirk Van Allen [01:20:34] We're a happy family.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:20:36] Well, I was gonna say something. Something I didn't want to say, kind of to Kirk, because I thought this was really cool growing up. I've always been a huge fan of history. History was my minor in college. I loved to study it. I loved to study the reasons people did what they did. And something I was always particularly fascinated in was the Holocaust, which, I know that's kind of gruesome, but it was so fascinating to me that a group of people could get to that point and why some people were heroic and why some people weren't Just the psychology of it has just always fascinated me. And something that I always pose to myself, and I think we, as humans always do, is if it came right down to it, gun pointed to my head, would I still hide Jews? Would I still do what I feel is right, even if everything around me is telling me not to do it? That's always a question I've wondered. And it did. It came right down to, your husband is going to lose his eternal salvation. He's going to. I mean, our family thought, you're not going to be a family anymore, all of these things. And Kirk was calming. He's like, no, I had my answer. I know what my answer was. I'm going to do what I know is right. And that was. I mean, I fell in love with him all over again. I know that sounds so cliche, but in that moment of the gun to his head, metaphorically, he stood for what he knew was right, even though he knew what the consequences would be and what this will mean going forward for our. There will be so many ramifications and so many things and that you just can't take it back that he did. He did it. He stood up, and he left it up. And I'm so proud of him. I mean, I know that's so cliche, but I think that's so amazing that he did. Even in the face of all of that, he said, no, this is the answer I've been given. This is what I know is right. I'm going to keep it up. And I'm just so proud of him for doing that. I think that's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] Well, cool. Well, you guys inspire me, and you've inspired a lot of other people. I think you guys are not only courageous, but also super thoughtful, and I'm proud to be able to help tell your story a little bit.

Kirk Van Allen [01:22:49] Thank you. Thank you so much, John. You do wonderful work.

Closing Testimonies and Reflections

John Dehlin [01:22:53] All right, well, you can't get off Mormon stories without bearing your Whatever testimony you have. So. So, Kirk, we're going to have you go first, and then, Lindsay, we're going to have you finish that out, all right? And it could be as secular or as spiritual or religious as you want to make it.

Kirk Van Allen [01:23:09] All right? Well, I'd like to bear my testimony. I actually. I think the rock that has taken us through all of this has been Jesus Christ as his. His example. Really kind of, you know, even for anybody that's an atheist out there, I don't care. Even if Jesus didn't exist, and I do believe he did exist and does exist as my Savior, but even if he didn't, he was an awesome example, and if there's anyone that deserves some emulation, it was him. And so we've always had him as a rock through this whole thing. And we believe that he is taking care of us and looking over us. So we. We feel confident, we feel happy. There hasn't been any loss of light. And regardless what other people may say in the future, now we are still just as happy, if not happier, where we are. We feel the spirit, we feel good. We love the new community that has embraced us with the, you know, thoughtful faith. And, you know, we appreciate you, John. And so I think, once again, Jesus was a good example, and I think he showed that we should love everybody. And so I think we feel loved by you. We feel loved by where we are right now, by God. So I think we're ready to go forward, take the next step, and ready to love everybody, too.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] Beautiful. All right, Lindsay, take us home again.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:24:43] Like Kirk, as everything else has come crashing down, as everything else has melted away in an extremely painful faith crisis process, the thing that never went away was Christ. And even when everything else was in question and we were in crisis mode, that I still knew that Christ was the Savior. And I had an experience once where I just. I was sitting in seminary, and I wasn't paying attention. There was a picture of Christ, and I just was thinking, and I was like, you know, I've had. You know, I've prayed about other things. I've never really prayed about Christ. I've just taken that for granted. And I just. I said a little prayer in my heart, and I just felt this overwhelming love. And just like I was embraced, I knew that Christ was my Savior. And that through this faith crisis, it brings out the best in people, and it brings out the worst in people. And it. That there's been times where emotions are heated, and there's been times where I've said things I regret. And that other people have said things they regret. And that as I've tried to really, truly implement Christ's teachings, that I felt his grace and that I didn't embrace that grace, but that I feel edifies me every day. And that. That through Christ I can be enough. That Christ transforms me. I don't transform me. I'm as weak as I've ever been. But that it all is Christ. It all comes back to Christ at the end of the day. And that he is. He is my rock. I was built on a sandy foundation and I didn't know. And now I was made aware of it. And I'm so glad because I'm building a relationship with Christ for the first time. For the first time in my life, I realized I don't have a lot else.

John Dehlin [01:26:46] Say that again. Say that again.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:26:48] Oh, I said I really, truly need him because I don't feel like I had a lot else to hold onto. And he was always there and I just felt my heart soften. When I wanted to be angry, when I wanted to lash out, that as I've. As I have turned to Him, I felt it all melt away. And it wasn't me. I wanted to hold onto that anger. That anger felt good. It felt strong. It was a strong emotion as it has melted away and just been replaced with peace time and time again. I know that is because of Christ. I bear testimony of Christ. I know that he can change us. I know that his grace is real and I know that he is real. So that's. That's my testimony now.

John Dehlin [01:27:31] And he's not a polygamist.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:27:34] No, he's not. That I wear.

John Dehlin [01:27:39] All right, well, Lindsay and Kirk again, I'm so honored you'd come on and tell your story. Listeners, please go listen to Gina Colvin's A Thoughtful Faith. To hear more, please join us on MormonStories.org you know, Lindsay and Kirk, I hope you guys will go on and answer any questions or reply to the extent that you can, if people have questions or concerns there and just bless you both and maybe after all this kind of settles, we'd love to have you back on to talk about how everything kind of concludes. Is that all right?

Lindsay Van Allen [01:28:16] Yeah, that'd be great.

John Dehlin [01:28:18] All right. All right, well, bless you guys. Thanks again and just thank you.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:28:22] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:28:22] Oh, my pleasure. And listeners, just thanks for all your support. Just know that your financial support and your encouragement is what keeps us going. So thanks everyone for your help. And again, thanks to the Van Allen's and we'll check you all. We'll see you all again soon on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Lindsay Van Allen [01:28:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:28:45] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Kirk Van Allen [01:29:08] When with the wounded heart, anger or malice, I draw myself apart, searching my soul.