Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guests: Gerald Benzi, Makenzie Benzi
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Gerald's Background in Zimbabwe
Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1526
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is November 24, 2021, and we are super excited. It's the day before Thanksgiving in the United States and we are super excited for this special interview on Mormon Stories podcast. I am joined today, as always these days, by my wonderful co host, Kara Burrell. Hey, Kara.
Guest [00:00:22] Hey, John.
John Dehlin [00:00:22] Happy almost Thanksgiving.
Guest [00:00:24] Yeah, Happy almost Thanksgiving to you.
John Dehlin [00:00:25] How you doing?
Guest [00:00:26] I am so excited.
John Dehlin [00:00:27] Yeah, yeah, do anything fun for, for
Guest [00:00:29] Thanksgiving, Spending time with family.
John Dehlin [00:00:32] That's what it's all about.
Guest [00:00:33] Which is really fun.
John Dehlin [00:00:33] Yay. Well, thanks for joining us. We are really excited to have in studio Gerald and Makenzie Benzi. Welcome, guys.
Gerald Benzi [00:00:43] Hi, John.
Makenzie Benzi [00:00:44] Thanks for having us.
John Dehlin [00:00:44] All the way from Atlanta.
Makenzie Benzi [00:00:46] All the way.
John Dehlin [00:00:47] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:00:47] By car.
John Dehlin [00:00:48] You drove? We drove from Atlanta.
Gerald Benzi [00:00:51] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:00:51] Holy moly.
Makenzie Benzi [00:00:52] That's how much we love this podcast.
John Dehlin [00:00:54] Oh, my gosh.
Gerald Benzi [00:00:55] We sacrificed our sleep for you, John.
John Dehlin [00:00:57] Thank you.
Makenzie Benzi [00:00:58] Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:00:58] I was honored already. Now I'm doubly honored. Yeah. So I've been, I've been telling people for a long time, you know, like when we had Roger Hendricks on Mormon Stories podcast, he told us that the church's strategy is to bet all in on Africa. And while the church loses its membership in the United States, Canada, Western Europe, and it's even losing in Mexico and Latin America and the Philippines, in many ways, it seems like the church is really banking on its future growth being in sub Saharan Africa. So I've had a call out for, for a long time for listeners and viewers who would like to come on Mormon Stories if they're from Africa, to kind of tell their story. And I, I don't know if that's what made you guys reach out or not, but part of what's super cool about this story is that we get to hear from Gerald Benzi, who grew up in Zimbabwe and joined the Mormon Church. So that's going to be part of today's episode. But, but we also have McKenzie who's got her own epic story. And there's a, a mixed racial marriage which in Mormonism has its own meaning and, and implications and connotations. So we're in for a really cool, epic, multi hour Mormon Stories podcast interview today. And also faith crisis stuff built in. So, guys, thanks so much for being willing to do this interview.
Makenzie Benzi [00:02:12] We're really excited.
John Dehlin [00:02:13] Yeah. So I guess we can, we can jump in and even though Makenzie, you were kind of raised in the church and Gerald, you converted to the church in your young adult years. Yes, I Thought it'd be cool to go ahead and. Gerald, have you start since we. If my memory serves me, I always tend to forget. I think you're the first sub Saharan African to ever be interviewed on Mormon Stories podcast.
Gerald Benzi [00:02:36] Wow. It feels good to be a pioneer. I love it.
John Dehlin [00:02:40] Gerald has a sense of humor. We like that. All right. Yeah. Pioneer. Gerald, where does your non Mormon story begin before it becomes a Mormon story? We'd love to hear.
Gerald Benzi [00:02:53] Okay, so I was born and raised in Zimbabwe. I was born in a rural area called Waja. Most people who are from Africa, they know that Zimbabwe is next to South Africa. So I use that to direct people geographically so they'll know what I'm talking about. So I was born and raised in Zimbabwe. My father's side of the family, they were not really Christians. They were into our spiritual, traditional, spiritual, you know, practices. And my mother's side, they were Christians, but my father was not actively practicing the spiritual stuff, so we grew up adopting my mom's religion instead.
John Dehlin [00:03:41] Can I ask, what would traditional Zimbabwean or African spirituality even be like? Just. Just a brief explanation. I'm just curious.
Gerald Benzi [00:03:49] So it's pretty much the same as Christianity, but I would say without Jesus.
John Dehlin [00:03:55] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:03:56] You know, so they do believe that we have a superior being we pray to. So in Shona, we call that musikaban, meaning creator of people. So that's who they pray to, but they use people who have passed. So our ancestors. So say, for example, just to give you, like, a little. A little explanation to how these practices go. So say your grandparents, right? They pass, and then you come around and then your kids. So when we are praying to our superior being, your kids will be like, john, can you talk to our ancestors so they can tell the superior being our concerns? Because we did believe that people who died, they will enter the spiritual realm. And they're the only ones who can talk to the creator of men. So that's why we ask them to be, hey, this is our message. We know that we cannot directly speak to him. Can you pass it on? So that's kind of like. So to me, that's where Jesus comes in, right? Like, he eliminates that. Like, okay, now you don't need to talk to your dead loved ones so they can convey their message to God. So it's pretty much like that. So we do fun stuff during those ceremonies. Like, we brew beer, we dance all night. We, you know, so basically, like, we want our voices to be heard. So we keep doing that. And until we. We are satisfied, until the spirits are appeased. Sometimes it's accompanied by a sign. I never witness those signs, but there are older people, people who can tell you, like, oh, it's enough. They hate it. So now we can go home, go about our day, Our prayer. Our prayer has been sent to the care of men. So that was my dead side, but my mom's side, my grandparents, they were. I think my. My granddad was an Anglican. I'm not really sure. But my mom was always into Christianity. So we grew up reading the Bible. And then, I mean, we'll take a sneak peek to my dad's side. We're like, so, dad, when is the ceremony happening? And he's like, we're not participating in that. I'm not part of that. But the other thing about my father, too, is he took pride, sending us to mission schools. So Christianity was like a big part of our life. So I guess in a summary, I would say growing up, going to church every Sunday, like the general. I mean, the traditional generic Christian life was pretty much what we lived. We went to church every Sunday, despite us being baptized or not baptized into my mom's church. She always take us there. But my dad did not go to church with us for a while. He would stay home. So it was always an option for us. Like, hey, we are not going to force you to go to this church. As you can see, your father's not going. My dad used to drink at that time. Like, he would go to a bar, things like that. But he was also really well versed with the Bible. Like, we would debate with him whilst he was drunk. We just think one of the funniest things we did when I was little is to ask him religious stuff when he's drunk. And we'll ask him, so why. Why do you drink when you're not drinking? His bed. And then he would take us on this run where he's like, drinking is not bad, you know? And then, like, you'll be like, teaching us how to drink responsibly, even though we're little kids. And my mom hated that. I'm pretty sure if she hears this, she'll still be mad that I'm saying this because she was against drinking. And my dad would be just like, it's fine. I'm. I'm not teaching them to be drug addicts. I just want them to drink responsibly, which is something I always tell my kids. I'm like, I kind of appreciate that because I was never one of those teenagers were like, I want to drink. I want to drink. And I tried because by the time I go to that stage, I can't understood what beer was, you know. And also in our culture, when we do the ceremonies I was telling you about, people are drinking, you know, so beer was not like a taboo. Taboo. We grew up around it. I used to help my grandma brew it, so I kind of knew how to do it. I kind of knew how it tastes. But I. I never got drunk as a kid, you know, so seeing people getting drunk in around me, it was never like a stigma, you know, because like, oh yeah, don't drink or you know, you end up in the streets or something like that. It wasn't like that.
Language, Culture, and Traditional Spirituality
John Dehlin [00:08:21] Real quick, what was the. What language was spoken in your home?
Gerald Benzi [00:08:24] It's called Shona.
John Dehlin [00:08:26] Okay, so English is your second language?
Gerald Benzi [00:08:28] Yeah, English is my second language. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:08:29] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:08:30] Yeah, but so if you go to Zimbabwe, we have tribes, but the two are largest are the majority of people are shown a tribe. So pretty much everyone speaks Shona. But again, we're a British colony, so everyone was forced to speak English. So in such a way that if you go to Zimbabwe right now, you'll be surprised that when people just approach you, they're just gonna speak in English. So you'll be like, wait, do you guys have any. Any tradition? So that's how we are. Like, so we are weird in that way that we have a bunch of people who just speak English. You know, whenever we see someone foreign, we always speak in English. Like it's. It has been like our thing the entire time. So most people also kind of think like English is our first language, which is not true. I've actually seen a documented online saying, oh yeah, the official language, the first language for Zimbabwe is English. And I was like, no, it's not. So that. That's how we are. Like so.
John Dehlin [00:09:28] And then also. Sorry, what was your parents education levels? Well, what. What level of education did they each obtain and what was their professions, if they had professions?
Gerald Benzi [00:09:40] So my mom, I think she. She went as far as high school and so there was a program, I think of Red Cross nurses back in the. In there in those days. I do not know how it really worked, but I know that she was in one of those programs. I don't know if they were like nurse assistants or nurse aides. I don't know that the actual term they were called. So that's what she did. But my dad was a teacher, so he did went to a teacher's college. And later on I think he obtained his masters in Animal science. So he became a headmaster. That's what we call them back there, back home. I don't know if that's the same.
John Dehlin [00:10:21] What type of school.
Gerald Benzi [00:10:23] The school that you went to, know
John Dehlin [00:10:24] that he taught, became the headmaster of.
Gerald Benzi [00:10:26] Oh, so it's like a secondary school,
John Dehlin [00:10:28] Like a high school.
Gerald Benzi [00:10:29] Yeah, like high school.
Guest [00:10:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:30] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:10:30] So, yeah, he was a principal.
John Dehlin [00:10:31] Like a principal of a high school. Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:10:33] Yeah, got it.
John Dehlin [00:10:35] So well educated. I mean, if he's, like, talking to you about the Bible and talking to you about responsible drinking and. And challenging Christianity, like, it means that he's a pretty thoughtful guy.
Gerald Benzi [00:10:49] He was. Yeah. So unfortunately, we lost him this year.
John Dehlin [00:10:55] Oh, no.
Gerald Benzi [00:10:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:56] I'm so sorry.
Gerald Benzi [00:10:57] Yeah, so, yeah, but pretty much that's who he was. And he always. He was that kind of person who was like, if something does not feel good to you, it's not good. You know, like, always. Always listen to yourself first. Whoa. And then make a judgment. So that's like, woke.
John Dehlin [00:11:18] That's super advanced. Like, so many of us now figuring that out. He had that figured out decades ago,
Gerald Benzi [00:11:24] from a very little age. That's what he was teaching me. And I always tell my kids, like, I got in trouble so much because of that. Because I became this little boy.
Guest [00:11:35] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:11:35] A little boy in your favor. I did. I did not like that. I. Every time I was told to do something, even at school, and I'm like, this does not feel okay. And when I was little, I was quiet, but I would vocalize when I'm uncomfortable.
John Dehlin [00:11:51] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:11:52] Which my teachers did not like because they used to use me as an example. Like, be quiet like Gerald. You know, be still like him. Then all of a sudden, I'm like, wish you don't go to break right now. Or I'm like, let's keep reading. And everyone is like, why? You know, so. Something like that. So I've been always, like, steering uncomfortable conversations when I was little, so. But I got that from my father. That's what his approach is, especially when it comes to spiritual stuff. He was always like, yeah, as long as you feel a certain connection to your spirituality. Which I. It took me years and years to understand what he mean by, oh, if you have a connection to your spirituality. To me, in my head, spirituality means doing good. I was just like, yeah, it means we're doing good. Right. I'm being nice. I'm being polite to other people. It wasn't about, like, actually, you know, connecting to a superior being. Like, like, what people were like in my culture. So I carried that idea, probably applying it in a weird way for years and years and years and years until I was older and I went to admission school. That's when he started making sense to me. Because I would question what the Catholics were teaching as a student, and I'd be like, so can you explain what types?
Questions About Catholicism and Family Religion
John Dehlin [00:13:07] What were, like, your three biggest questions or, like, concerns with Catholicism? You remember?
Gerald Benzi [00:13:13] I. I do. So what happened to me is. So I went to mission school when I was 12 years old, and coming from a community that was, like, super into our traditional stuff, drinking wasn't an issue. But then I made Christians who would tell people not to drink, right? But at that point, I never, like, understood where they were coming from with that. And then I went to a Catholic school, right? And they were drinking, right? Like, they would drink wine as part of the religious. Exactly. So that was something I kept asking them, like, so can you explain to me? So, which is, like, I would equate it to people who are familiar with the Word of Wisdom, right? Like, okay, let's not drink. So imagine going to a church where alcohol is in the church, right? And you are coming from this background where the Christians you've met, they have told you that alcohol is bad. Now you are in this institution where the priest himself, like, he drinks after. In after hours, you know, after he's done with his office hours. Like, who would see them? Because it was a rural area, so there was literally one bar in one store that would sell legal. So everyone who wants legal will go there, including the priest. So, like, just seeing that kind of confused me, and I was like, okay, can you explain how alcohol is not bad to you? You know, because I understood that people who played with Jesus Christ were telling us, alcohol is not good, you know? So I remember asking that, and I did not get a definite answer. And then the other thing I asked, which I got in trouble for in school, was, you know, worshiping idols. I had a hard time going into a church where there's a giant statue in front of me and do your rosary, kneel, pray in front of that statue. I struggled with that even up today. I cannot explain it for sure, for sure. Like, how that feeling came. But I remember asking, because we would have a class with our priests, too, in our curriculum, there was a class dedicated to us. Talking to the priest. I remember asking him that. But I think my wedding and my tone I used, he did not like it. So I got punished for that, which did not do any good for me, because I brought that story home, and I Told my dad. And I was like, this is what happened in school. Because they would write a report every time your son, you know, did so and so, so and so. And at that time, I think part of my story initiated a movement where Catholic parents started asking the school not to enroll non Catholic students.
John Dehlin [00:15:59] Oh, because they were asking questions.
Gerald Benzi [00:16:01] Because they were asking questions about the Catholic Church. And they did not like that because their kids never questioned that. You know, but they will go home and then they will tell stories like, oh, this guy got in trouble because he asked about this. But you know, they. That is triggering to someone who was born and raised especially, like their parents were like, really conservative about it. So it's something that I didn't realize at that moment, but I remember my dad saying that at one point, like mentioning it to his friend, like, oh, yeah, this the kid. So I asked him, I was like, what do you mean you are telling your friend, this is the kid? And he's like, oh, I told him about your story when you almost got suspended at school. So that was like a moment I realized, like, oh, I might be asking really valid questions if he took that to the bar. His friend is like, let me tell you what happened with my little son, you know, So I had those. I mean, those were like few examples that I clashed with the Catholic Church. And also the other thing too that I did is, you know, they have servers, right? Like those outer boys you see, who were, you know, they are serving the priest. So you had to be a Catholic, you know, and then you had to take classes and then you had to do that. I was not a Catholic, but this is one of the most. I don't know, I feel bad about it now, but back then I was curious. I went to the service room and I was not a Catholic. I couldn't even receive the Communion. The communion, yeah. And I sat there, watch them, listen to them, and I wrote my name on the, on the register on the roster. So what they would do is like, they will pick people who will serve in masses. So they'll just be like, okay, on Monday is John, Phillip and Gerald. So my name came up and I went there, put on the uniform, and I started serving.
John Dehlin [00:17:55] That'd be like a non Mormon kid passing the sacrament in church, right? Yes, that's the equivalent of exactly some kids signing up to pass the sacrament. Who's never been baptized or received the priesthood. Yeah, naughty Gerald, exactly.
Gerald Benzi [00:18:08] And there have been stories growing up when people would tell us, like, if you receive the communion and you're Not a Catholic, like, bad things will happen to you. And they were like a lot of false stories, like, oh, the communion turned into blood, blah, blah, blah, you know, a lot of things. And I literally went there, I took it, walked out, never said anything, waited the entire school term. Nothing happened. Up to now, I have. People I went to school with would think I am like a legitimate because they watch me doing that. Right. But it never happened to me.
John Dehlin [00:18:40] God didn't strike you down?
Gerald Benzi [00:18:41] He did not. I wasn't smarter than turning into worms or anything.
Makenzie Benzi [00:18:46] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:18:46] I was like, so is this really. Is this really making sense to you people? But at that time, I was so afraid to engage with anyone and tell them, like, hey, I did this thing because at our school, that was an offense. You can get expelled. Like, okay, you did that. So. But later on in my high school, I started telling people. I was like, yeah, that cookie you eat does not mean anything because I ate it. You know, so that was pretty much my. My childhood then.
John Dehlin [00:19:17] But do Catholics, as you were growing up, were you raised to. To think that Catholics still believed that the wafer turns into the literal flesh of Christ and the wine turns into the literal. The transubstantiation doctrine? Were you taught that that was real?
Gerald Benzi [00:19:34] Yeah, I did. Yeah. I remember. This is part of the reason why my experience, which I took risk on myself, like, trying to do that, kind of literally reversed. Like, I took a 360 after I did that because it did not seem real to me to hear people teaching that doctrine. Now I'm like, no, I did to eat a cookie and wine. It does not flesh and blood. It's not. But being that young, you know, I did not have enough ammo to go against that doctrine, you know, So I would sit in those classes and people will say it and I'll be smacking in the beg. I don't know, man. This is. This feels weird. But I did ask my dad about that. I remember having a conversation with him, which, Mom, I'm sorry. He told me not to tell her. And he's like, we, here's the thing. As much as I want you to respect school rules, like, this was bad, bad, bad, bad. You know, he never encouraged me to keep on doing that. But at the same time, he also told me that, like, this is how spiritual things work and, like, faith work. If you believe something is going to affect you and you believe that for real, for real, you might start experiencing things that align with that belief because you are keeping on reinforcing it to yourself and your Mind and your consciousness, like, okay, if I eat this cookie bed, things are going to happen. So you are walking around with that mentality in life. So it's like, this is why probably this cookie did not affect you because you don't walk around believing it. So you took it.
John Dehlin [00:21:14] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:21:14] And you're like, this is nothing. So it is nothing.
John Dehlin [00:21:17] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:21:17] Yeah. But it doesn't necessarily mean. To another Catholic boy who believe this is. It would have worked. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:21:23] For him.
Gerald Benzi [00:21:23] So, yeah. So I would say, like, yeah, it felt weird that time because I did not grasp the concept. He was trying to tell me. To me, I got away with meter as a kid. I was just like, well, that's what I did, you know, and it's fine. Nothing happened. So, yeah, pretty much from my mission school in my community, like, between those two things, I. I got the same Christian values that any other Christian, like, would have. Funny thing is, most people who talk to me, they think our traditional culture wasn't. Concept is not conservative. It's super conservative. So transitioning from our traditional culture into Christianity is the easiest thing we can do. Like, literally, it is. It feels like home when you are a Christian. The only thing that is so much different, like I said earlier on, is the idea of Jesus Christ. Because our superior being in our traditional culture doesn't have a son. We don't talk to him through his son. We talk to him through past loved ones. So that's. That's pretty much the biggest change. But everything else, yeah, it's still like, Is very like, gender road, you know. So in Christianity, if you come and they tell you, like, oh, women shouldn't preach. Well, yeah, you know, traditional culture, if you look at it too, when ceremonies were being performed, usually they were done by men, you know. Yeah, women will help brewing the beer and stuff like that. So already it's not a big shocker to you to hear those things because you kind of understand already. Okay. Yeah. These roles are kind of assigned based on that. Like, are you a man? Are you a woman? You know, are you a child? Well, yeah, if you're a child, you can get. You can get as far as this level, you know, so you can relate with different religions. Like, yeah, kids pass the sacrament. They don't. They don't go, you know, they don't do anything beyond that. Which is literally the same thing with us passing around those cups of beer, even though we didn't drink the beer. But that was our role. You have to make sure it's distributed around. And then people. People get Drunk and high and talk to whoever they are talking to. Right. So it was pretty much the same thing, which, which brought me to being a Christian with my mom now. So going to my mom's church, I observed that. So my mom's church was kind of spiritual. I don't know if we can call them Pentecostals or what, I don't know. But they were kind of like, was it charismatic?
John Dehlin [00:23:56] Speaking in tongues?
Gerald Benzi [00:23:57] Yeah, speaking in tongues, giving visions, prophecies and stuff like that. Which is super amazing because as much as I wasn't attached to my mom's church, a lot of things that I saw seemed real and felt real, you know, So I think I was 14 or. No, I was 16. I decided to get baptized into my mom's church. And we kind of sit in the house and she was asking me, are you sure you want to do this? You know, you have to commit and things like that. But it didn't really matter to me. I just wanted to be part of my mom's family. The other reason why I wanted to do that was my dad stopped drinking at some point in his life and he started going to my mom's church. So that was a big 10 hour turnaround point for us.
Father's Sobriety and Family Life Changes
John Dehlin [00:24:51] And what did the family life improve when your dad stopped drinking? Was it good for your family?
Gerald Benzi [00:24:57] Yeah. For your dad, it was good for him because I mean, part of the reason why I say that is so this is what he did. My grandpa, my mom's father died and my dad was really close to him. They used to drink together, you know, like they were. They had a good relationship. So that really affected him when he passed and he kind of became a different person because there was also like a controversy surround surrounding my grandpa's death. Like people believe he was poisoned. And my dad felt like he knew who did that. So it really affected him. So he stopped drinking. Like, just stop.
John Dehlin [00:25:39] Wow.
Gerald Benzi [00:25:40] Yeah. So he wasn't going to bars anymore and anything. And then all of a sudden one Sunday, he used to draw as you change and then you go back home one Sunday he just like stayed. So we're like, oh, maybe he will leave. He didn't. He stayed the entire service and went back home. We didn't talk about it or anything. Then he just kept doing that. He just kept doing that. And then all of a sudden he got baptized. So I wasn't out at that point and I was like, oh, okay, can we talk about this? You know, But I didn't know how to initiate it. But we also do did understand that he was on a journey, you know, starting from my grandpa passing. So, yeah, that kind of motivated me to be like, okay, maybe I can also, you know, get baptized. So I did decide to do that. So then I was baptized. But after my baptism, I realized that I signed up for something that I did not really understand, you know, because now I was part of the church, I had to, you know, participate and get roles, you know, in our church. Little boys in. My mom says little boys used to open for preachers and it was random. They would just like be like, oh, hey Gerald, do you want. Do you want to open today? You know, then they will read the scripture, then you preach. So preaching like, what evangelist do is something I can do, not because I was trained to do it, but because I was exposed to a lot of people doing it. So it was like a freestyle when you're little and everyone in the church will be encouraging you, like, go do it, go do it, go do it. And I also realized, like, I was one of the little boys who would just repeat what they had, what they had the other preachers saying. It's not like I actually believed what I was saying or like, you know, or it was my own stuff. I just like borrowed stuff. And then I would do that. So I became part of my mom's church. But so I was juggling between going to school as a Catholic, coming home, joining this church that is non Catholic, and that also gave me more ammo to go to the Catholic. And like, okay, so I know these guys will say this about this. Like, do you guys believe this? You know, and my friends were mostly Catholics, were like, wait, what, what are you talking about? Like, people receive visions. Do you know that? They're like, no, that's not true. Then I would, I would tell them stories from, from, from my church, you know, but that was something even up to today. I do not really understand why they do that or how they do it, because I have a few people come up from my mom's church who are spiritual who told me stuff that actually happened to me, but I did not really believe them in the moment. You know, it's not. I don't feel like that that was my faith at that time. So I'm. I'm still kind of digesting that, you know, so. Which brings me, like going to high school in college now, where I'm still going. These are still Catholic institutions I'm still attending at that point, you know, and I'm still trying to see if I can relate to Catholics Since I cannot relate to my mom's age. But at the same time, no one in the Catholic Church is actually answering my questions in a way that makes me want to be part of them. But From since age 12, I've been part of their institution. So I've. You know, part of me feels like we've already invested time in these people. Maybe these are our people. We cannot, like, just for a second, we cannot just switch and try to find another religion that I was not familiar with. And by that time, I would see missionaries from other churches, like the Anglican. They still have Anglicans. What's the other one? Jehovah's Witness. Jeffrey, Witness are the ones who have the. The magazine, right? Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:29:44] Watchtower.
Gerald Benzi [00:29:45] Yeah. Yeah. I would see those guys a lot. And I remember taking. I mean, talking to them several times because I. They would leave those books and stuff, but that did not convince me otherwise, you know. And I talked to the Seventh Day Adventist, too, and I realized that they don't like Catholics. So they come off. They came off to me like they are trying to make me, like, choose between them and Catholics was the moment. The moment they realized, like, you a Catholic, like, they start bringing stuff like, you're not supposed to go to church on Sunday, you know, Saturday is the real stuff. But these people are doing this wrong, you know, And I'm like, okay, I. I don't want you to teach me based on how other people are doing something wrong. Like, I want to understand your church. So I did try for a little bit, try to understand them, but I had a problem with other things that they just do. Like on a Friday. Friday was like our heavy day. You know, growing up, I did not feel fine, like, letting go of everything by 6pm and kind of the.
John Dehlin [00:30:54] The Jewish Sabbath from like Friday evening to Saturday. Yes, the Seventh Day Adventists.
Gerald Benzi [00:30:59] Exactly. And I did not even realize that we. We do not cook on a Saturday.
John Dehlin [00:31:05] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:31:06] So that made me feel like I don't think I can. I can have a lifestyle like this apart from them, like, being spiritual and everything. But I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I can do this. And in my house, coming back home and talking about those things, my dad entertained that, like, because my other siblings went to Anglican mission schools. So they will also come home and they will tell us how they are being taught, you know, by Anglicans. And I will talk about how I'm being taught by Catholics and also interacting with other people, you know, who were not. Who were not either Catholic or Anglican and stuff like that. So religion became like a topic at our dinner table, which we enjoyed partly because in his drunk days, too, it was entertaining for us. But at that stage now, it was kind of getting more real since now he gave away his lifestyle of drinking and stuff. Now he belonged to my mom's stage. So it was fine for me to debate people about the Bible, about religion, about your church doctrine.
John Dehlin [00:32:12] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:32:13] I didn't feel like it's something people get too personal about at that point.
John Dehlin [00:32:18] You know, it's reminding me a little bit of Joseph Smith's upbringing, because I think Joseph Smith Sr. Drank, and then I think there was a lot of religious variation and debate and discussion in the home because there was so much variability. So in some ways it's. It's reminding me of Joseph Smith's upbringing.
Makenzie Benzi [00:32:35] True.
John Dehlin [00:32:36] I do want to ask you, do you have a way to remember kind of how Mormons were viewed or maybe are viewed in Zimbabwe by people who didn't grow up with them and would just have a casual perception about Mormonism? Do you remember how Mormons were viewed, if they were viewed at all by the common Zimbabwean?
Gerald Benzi [00:32:58] Yeah. So that's something that I was super excited, like, to understand with other people who knew them, because when I was in Zimbabwe, I did not know about the church. I have seen missionaries because, I mean, now I remember they were missionaries because of how they dress. I do remember thinking that there were kids going to a high school because pretty much everybody in Zimbabwe wore a uniform, white shirt, gray pants or black pants or whatever. So that's what they look like to me. But I do not remember actually encountering moments and. Or even hear anyone talk about them. But surprisingly, my mom knew about the moment change and we never talked about them. So I do not really. Yeah, I do not really know how people view them, you know, like. Or how people talked about them. But the. The other thing too is in Zimbabwe, which is really interesting with how. I mean, you introduced that, this podcast like that. You. You want to know how the change is gonna, you know, shift their focus to Africa. I think Africa is a flooded market when it comes to religion. You know what I mean? Case pretty much from the get go of people going to Africa, they were there with religion. Right. So you would find that, like, most popular religions that people talk about are people who have schools, people who have colleges, people who were there before. I mean, the. The change even, you know, shifted their focus to Africa. And I think right now maybe they say they are announcing it. They announced a temple In Zimbabwe. So that's just going to be one amongst I don't know how many cathedrals in Zimbabwe. Like, plenty. So I never heard about the church. I think their membership is probably really small in Zimbabwe. So I never encountered anyone who. Who actually introduced me to them or even like, mentioned them. And Momonism itself. I did not hear that word when I was in Zimbabwe until I lived.
John Dehlin [00:35:10] Oh, wow.
Gerald Benzi [00:35:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:11] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:35:12] I didn't know here, but.
John Dehlin [00:35:12] So the church is really behind. I mean, Africa has been colonized forever by everyone, basically. So the church is really behind.
Gerald Benzi [00:35:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:22] Yeah. Interesting. Okay, so no real understanding of what Mormonism was growing up?
Gerald Benzi [00:35:27] Nope.
John Dehlin [00:35:27] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:35:28] Yeah, sure.
Guest [00:35:28] Yeah. And I just looked it up. It said in 1975, there were 689 members in Zimbabwe, and in 2019, there were around 34,000 with 87 congregations. And I think, like you mentioned a temple that's had the groundbreaking, but it's not yet built yet.
Gerald Benzi [00:35:43] Yeah, I think so. Because I think they announced it in 2016, if I'm not mistaken, because it's around the time just before I converted. Because I. I remember people celebrating. I attended the General Conference before I was a Momon, and I remember people celebrating about it. And my. My friend who was a momon mentioned it to me. He was like, oh, they're going to build a temple in. In Harare. And I was like, oh, yeah, cool. Because I did not. I did not understand how big of a deal that was. I was just like, oh, sure. I mean, a building. Yeah, it's a building. So there are plenty of those there. So I don't know. Is it gonna be in the cbd? I don't know. But. But yeah, I, I did not. I have an understanding of how people viewed Mormonism, but I. If. If someone was to take a wild gaze, like I would think any other similar religion to that, that's pretty much how they. How they view them.
John Dehlin [00:36:37] But carrot to your point, that's. Is that pretty big growth?
Guest [00:36:40] You know, I feel like it is.
John Dehlin [00:36:41] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:36:42] Between.
John Dehlin [00:36:42] Say it again. The. The. The numbers in the years that would
Guest [00:36:46] be 1975, around 700 members.
John Dehlin [00:36:51] Okay.
Guest [00:36:52] And so. And you can do the math of how many years it's been since then. And then this update, it doesn't say 2021. It says 2019.
Gerald Benzi [00:36:59] Okay.
Guest [00:37:00] So we'll have to go by two years ago. It's probably grown even more since then, but 34,330 members with 87 congregations.
John Dehlin [00:37:07] Yeah, it's a lot of growth.
Gerald Benzi [00:37:08] Yeah, it is. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:09] Yeah. And you're an example of the growth
Gerald Benzi [00:37:13] I contributed to that statistic.
How Gerald Encountered Mormonism
John Dehlin [00:37:17] Okay, so a lot of religious discussion and variability in your home. You converted at some point, but you're still. I mean, I, I'm, I'm struck by the fact that you were kind of a critical thinker as a kid and your dad, maybe, maybe your mom too, passed that on to you. So you're experiencing various religions, but you're also thinking a lot and analyzing. And I'm just always fascinated with how critical thinkers end up joining high demand religions. Like how does that. How.
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:44] Conversation many times, like, wait, how. But you. I mean, to your dad's credit, it wasn't only religion that you talked about. I mean, there was a lot of science background and so from all angles, just critical thinking in general.
John Dehlin [00:37:59] I mean, religious conversion is primarily an emotional phenomenon. So even though we can talk all about the intellect, just like with your dad, he's a critical thinker, but his dad dies, it's a traumatic experience for him. Well, all of a sudden he's converting to Christianity. Like religious conversion is, is pretty much an emotional social thing. Very opportunistic, rarely an intellectual thing. So that's my, I'm, I'm jumping to the end, but so I'm dying to hear how you end up joining the church. So keep going.
Gerald Benzi [00:38:26] So now after college, right, I graduated.
John Dehlin [00:38:29] Would you study in college?
Gerald Benzi [00:38:31] Applied chemistry. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I was in Zimbabwe at that time. Then I got an opportunity.
John Dehlin [00:38:37] Oh, wait, you mentioned. Sorry. In your outline. I don't mean to interrupt, but I want to make sure you cover something. You mentioned being raised with purity culture in your family, right?
Gerald Benzi [00:38:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:38:47] What would that mean to. What is. What would purity culture in Zimbabwe kind of mean?
Guest [00:38:54] So
Gerald Benzi [00:38:56] like I said that there are a lot of things in Christianity that also exist in our traditional. In our traditional culture. One of the major things I can point out that pretty much every Christian can relate to is sexuality. You know, in our culture also, being a virgin was like something that we were taught and it was always portrayed as something that is really good and beneficial to you in the future.
John Dehlin [00:39:28] Until you get married, basically.
Gerald Benzi [00:39:29] Until you get married. Yes. And our culture is also kind of brutal. Like if you, if you read stuff that used to happen back in the day, like in the ancient time, like that practice could. Virginia could bring. Losing virginity could bring shame to your family, you know, because there was some weird thing they would do like that they will confirm that for you for real, she was a virgin. And then they will have to communicate that to Your family, which was weird. I. I don't really know the details, but I. I knew that involved like, some piece of cloth being folded or something like that. And then people will visit, like the honeymoon suite. I can call it that. And then if that cloth is folded a certain way, they will know that she was a virgin or she was not, or something like that, which was really brutal. You know what I mean?
John Dehlin [00:40:22] I'm guessing that something with the hymen and if the hymen gets ruptured.
Gerald Benzi [00:40:26] Yeah. And there's blood.
John Dehlin [00:40:28] Yeah, that's a sign. Which is not a great way to know because that can. That can rupture in all sorts of different ways and all different times.
Gerald Benzi [00:40:36] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:40:37] But that's the cultural heritage. Yeah, that kind of.
Gerald Benzi [00:40:40] So, so, so, yeah. So those were. Those were the things that they would teach us, you know, like. Yeah. Make sure, like, you preserve yourself until you meet the right one. Then you get married. Because if you don't, you're gonna bring shame to the family. And they will think you belong. You know, you are not taught well, you're not raised well. Which, you know, your family will get best for. Which is pretty much similar to Christianity. Like. Okay, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:02] And Mormonism. That sounds quite familiar.
Gerald Benzi [00:41:05] Yeah. It's like a trophy you will hold at the end.
John Dehlin [00:41:08] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:08] You know, so they didn't tell you until the honeymoon.
Gerald Benzi [00:41:11] No, it's not like they did not tell you. It's like, so when you go to the honeymoon, right. If I find out, say you were. You were not a virgin, like, who. I will leave that cloth for the decision way. Then your aunts would visit your aunts, and my aunts will visit their suit. Then they will both observe that. That clothes, and they'll be like, well, yeah, she was not.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:32] So they can go home and shame her.
Gerald Benzi [00:41:34] I don't know what they would do about it, but in my thinking, I would think maybe because we pay bright price back home, maybe we will negotiate the bright price. It wasn't worth it, you know, so she wasn't worth seven cows, like a dowry or whatever. Yeah, dowry. Yeah. So we. We do. We do pay that. So I think that will contribute, like. Okay, so now you owe us because we did give you all.
John Dehlin [00:41:56] We paid you as if she were a virgin.
Gerald Benzi [00:41:58] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:41:59] Turns out she's not giving us some of our money back.
Gerald Benzi [00:42:01] Exactly. So I don't know exactly how they would. With a situation where she's not or if they will ask some of their money back. Or it would just be like this thing that hangs out that they will hang on your family's head every time, like, oh, you're going to do that because, you know, you duped us. I do not know how they handle. Wow. So, yeah, so such things, like, existed in our culture, you know, and they are like, a lot of practices that way, just, like, related to. To marriage itself. Like, they would. They would have, like, these weird sexuality classes way, like, you know, like circumcision and stuff like that. And just like, teaching people, like, to be clean, you know, which I do understand. Back in their time, like, yeah, that was really, you know, they didn't have as much good health care system like we do. So maybe those things were beneficial in that time, you know, so that's something that my dad also kind of emphasize, like, oh, if you want to marry a princess, you have to live like a prince, you know, Those are like, statements I can remember that I had when I was little. Like, oh, yeah, it's not like you can just be wild and expect, like, you know, to get this flower, which is also something that.
John Dehlin [00:43:16] Flower meaning a pure woman, basically.
Gerald Benzi [00:43:18] Exactly, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:43:19] I say pure in quotes.
Gerald Benzi [00:43:21] Yeah, exactly. Something like that. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:43:23] Were you a flower, Cara?
Guest [00:43:24] I was a flower.
John Dehlin [00:43:25] Okay.
Guest [00:43:26] I'm proud of it too. I have so little to live for.
Makenzie Benzi [00:43:28] Flower.
Guest [00:43:29] All that I was taught my worth was. So, yeah, it was a flower. Thanks so much. Appreciate that.
Gerald Benzi [00:43:33] Yeah, so, yeah, something like that. And also to the other thing I appreciate about my day teaching us that his purity was not just about sexuality too. It was also about, like, things you eat and hence him teaching us how to drink. Like, I. I remember him telling us, okay, you are gonna start trying to experiment with cigarettes, alcohol, you know, even marijuana, which was not illegal. I mean, in our law, it was illegal, but it has been just part of our lifestyle that you can find it anyway. It's not really hard to find. So you would sit us down and tell us those things, you know, so then he will explain to us. Like, okay, so drinking, you have to know when to stop, right? Because if you don't, then when people tell you, like, oh, yeah, they are. Someone is addicted to alcohol, they are not lying. You know, it's because you've been, like, beating up your body too much, doing this stuff like, yeah, drugs are fine for euphoria, feeling and stuff like. But you have to stop there. You don't have to rely on them, you know, which is something that I do not understand how he came to that point, because I do not remember. I mean, culturally, people teaching that, like, that limit because beer was something people generally just drank until they drop, you know, like, they did not have that limit. So I. I do not understand how he. He. How he came to that approach of teaching us that. So part of. Yeah, part of. Of what I mean by that purity is, you know, related to that sexually and.
John Dehlin [00:45:14] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:45:14] Things.
John Dehlin [00:45:15] Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. It sounds like traditional Zimbabwean culture would be experienced as very compatible with conservative, orthodox Mormonism. That's what I'm. Yeah, it feel very familiar. And if you had that Christian element, then you're. You're ready.
Makenzie Benzi [00:45:33] Right on par.
Guest [00:45:34] And isn't like being in the LGBTQ population. Is that, like, kind of illegal in Zimbabwe?
Gerald Benzi [00:45:40] Yeah, I would say culturally is not supported at all. Like, people do not. Do not entertain that culturally. So that's like something that is. I mean, I wouldn't say, like, it's taught per se, but everyone just kind of understands that it's a taboo, you know, so such that, like, just like recent days, that's when these conversations have actually started to happen, you know, like people trying to understand why it's a problem, you know, but culturally, I cannot really, like, explain why they were against it. You know, like, there is no explanation. It's just like, that's not how things work, you know, so that's like, crazy conservative, too. Like how. What our culture is like, is, like, there are certain rules that are just rules, but they are not explained because no one is ever, like, sit us down and explained to us, like, why that is wrong. You know, it's always like, this is how we created men and women. That's it. So let's not. Let's not. Let's not entertain the idea of people, you know, being fluid or anything. So. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:41] Is it illegal or punished? Punishable by law?
Gerald Benzi [00:46:44] I'm not sure if they have, like, actual laws right now, but I know that our previous president, he was very vocal about it. Like, he is many, many, like, speeches that he has talked about it. And he does not entertain that idea. And I remember him getting in trouble one time with the human rights activist, because there was a time when it was. I think it was like in the 2000s when things started changing and, like, main way, braiding their hair and, you know, piercing their ears and stuff. And he equated that is like recolonization. And it's like, okay, these ideas you guys are borrowing are from the west, and the west is kind of colonizing us, so we're not going to entertain that. And there are instances where he has sent like the police or, you know, soldiers to, like, gay functions and gay bars, and they will beat out people, you know, to such an extent that he instilled, like, he instilled fear in anyone who want to practice homosexuality. You know, he kind of made it normal. You can beat up a gay person, nothing's going to happen to you. You know, you can. You can publicly shame them. There are no repercussions for you doing that, you know, so that I know, like, that was his mentality. But I don't. I don't know if he actually has laws, you know, but I know that they cannot get married in Zimbabwe, you know, even now, I don't think so.
John Dehlin [00:48:10] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:48:11] Yeah, I don't think we. You can get married if you're gay in Zimbabwe.
Makenzie Benzi [00:48:14] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:48:15] So. Yeah. Which is something that is not even. It just existed in our culture before. Those relationships were not entertained.
John Dehlin [00:48:24] Right.
Gerald Benzi [00:48:25] If they happened, they were just like, underground relationship. No one knew about them because. Yeah. We just thought like, no, it's not going to happen.
John Dehlin [00:48:32] Fascinating.
Gerald Benzi [00:48:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:34] Also very compatible with orthodox Mormonism, right?
Gerald Benzi [00:48:38] Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:39] Okay. All right, so take us to. Take us to the point of you thinking about the church.
Dreaming of and Moving to the United States
Gerald Benzi [00:48:45] Okay. So now graduate college. I get an opportunity to come to the United States.
John Dehlin [00:48:51] Oh, what was your perception of the United States as someone growing up in Zimbabwe? What year would this have been where you were thinking about coming to the United States? And when you thought of the United States, what did you think?
Gerald Benzi [00:49:03] So my story is kind of funny in a way because I never thought of leaving Zimbabwe at all. And my opportunity came this way. One of my lecturers actually started from the same college I came to into the state. So after graduation, I was kind of just like buddy buddies with him, you know. And then after graduation, I was a temporal teacher, you know, just figuring out what am I going to do next within my career. And it happened that a professor from his previous college was looking for graduate students that had similar research as his lab was doing. So my final year dissertation kind of aligned with his work. So he was like, oh, I know of this kid who graduated here, and he was kind of doing similar work is what you want to research in. I can connect him to you. So this was just like me going about my day teaching. And then he sent me a message and he's like, hey, do you have a resume? I mean, back home we call them cvs. Do you have a cv? And I was like, sure, what's up? And he's just like, send it to me. So I did send it to him, but I did not. I knew maybe he has an opportunity, like a teaching assistant at the college or something. I was, okay, that's. That'll be cool. So I sent it to him. And then two weeks passed, and I was like, I ignored him. I just. I. I don't know. Maybe the opportunity did not work out. And then later on, I received an email from someone from the United States with, like, a bunch of people copied on it. And he's like, hey, I do really love the work you're doing. Do you mind, like, filling out this paperwork if you are interested? Like. So he kind of introduced himself, and he talked about what he. What he's doing and things like that. And I remember I forwarded that email to my sister, and I was like, look at this. And she's like, it's a scam. So I did not respond. Oh, like, five days. And then my lecturer called me, and he's like, dude, why didn't you respond to him? And I was like, wait, was real? Yeah. And he's like, yeah, it's real. Fill out that paper. You can send it to him. So that's how I got that opportunity. But in my mind, I never assumed, like, oh, one day I want to go to the States.
Makenzie Benzi [00:51:26] Okay, but like a reverse Nigerian prince scam.
John Dehlin [00:51:29] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:51:31] So. Yeah. So he started telling me how my school was gonna get paid for and things like that. And I. I took it to my dad, and I was like, dad, look at this. And he's like, this is a good opportunity. Take it. So I did. I took it. But if you were asking the image of the United States where I had, at that point, everyone thinks, like, you know, the States is the paradise. Like, that's. That's what. That's what life on earth should be like, you know? Yeah. Because everyone, when. If you say United States to someone in Zimbabwe, they're gonna tell you, New York, Chicago, you know, all these, like, Hollywood kind of lifestyle, when everyone is just, like, living in this big city in their fancy apartment, and your job just, like, pays for everything. You can buy a car, you know, you can become anything. You can release a song, and you're on MTV and stuff like that. That's literally, like, how people think it works. So to me, coming to Milwaukee, Wisconsin,
John Dehlin [00:52:34] that's where you went?
Gerald Benzi [00:52:35] That's where I went. Which I did not even know how to save Milwaukee when I. When I was filling out my application submitted. So my brother visited me the last week that I was in Zoom. So this Is like a funny story. We were at a bar and he's talking like, oh, dude, like, this is so amazing. You're gonna go to the States. And I'm like, I know. Like, who would have thought, like, I. I will be the one going there. So he's like, so which place are you going to? And I said, it's some city called me. Okay. And he's like, where is that? And I was like, I don't know, some place called Wisconsin, I guess. And he's like, I've never heard of it. I was like, me too. Because obviously, like, the kind of content we are exposed to about the United States, they don't talk about places like that, you know, just talk about big. Yeah. States that. You know, there are people who think Chicago is a state, you know, because of how much they hear about it. So the. I would say, like, states that people get right are California pretty much. That's it. You know, so that's. I was like, yeah. I've never heard of anyone talk about this place. Funny thing, you know the BFRO Milwaukee. The MGD Milwaukee Genuine Draft.
John Dehlin [00:53:47] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:53:48] So we have that in Zimbabwe.
John Dehlin [00:53:50] Oh, yeah.
Gerald Benzi [00:53:51] So there was a giant poster of mgd.
John Dehlin [00:53:54] It's like KFC instead of. Right. Yes, like the initials.
Gerald Benzi [00:53:58] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:53:59] From learning what.
Gerald Benzi [00:54:00] Yeah, yeah. So everyone just says like, yeah, draft beer. Draft beer. Draft beer. And we had a giant poster right in front of us whilst we're talking that with the. With the air. So I remember I was kind of like tipsy at that point. And I remember reading that post and I was like, oh, dude, look, it says Milwaukee. And he's like, that's where you're going? And I was like, yeah, that's where this beer is from. And we're like celebrating was running in the bar, but I did not have an idea what Milwaukee looked like. So then I came to Milwaukee and it was a shocker. And I. I remember texting my body. I'm like, dude, this place, like the compass looks amazing, but outside of the campus, it does not look like these days, man. I don't know. Like, I could not explain it to him, you know. And also the idea of Segregated Series, I was not familiar to it. So I started learning about Miwa again. I was like, oh, wow, this is not exactly what I thought it was. I was imagining myself like, our campus is in the middle of this giant city and I'm taking this train to the campus or something. Stuff you see in movies, you know. Or I'm taking my yellow cab, going to Campus and back and forth and stuff like that, but it didn't happen. So that was a shortcut for me when I came here. So my professor, let me ask you really quickly.
John Dehlin [00:55:25] Socioeconomically, like, obviously there's massive variability in terms of socioeconomic status in Africa and probably in Zimbabwe. What, in terms of your socioeconomic upbringing, did you guys have a car? I'm assuming you had electricity and, you know, just what was your style of living and what would you know? How would it have been different from Milwaukee or similar to Milwaukee, just so we can get a baseline.
Gerald Benzi [00:55:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:55:53] Of what you grew up with.
Gerald Benzi [00:55:55] So, yeah, I would say the majority of the country in Zimbabwe, I don't know how now it is like. But growing up, we did not have electricity where. Where I grew up.
John Dehlin [00:56:06] In your house?
Gerald Benzi [00:56:07] Yeah, in my house.
John Dehlin [00:56:08] No electricity?
Gerald Benzi [00:56:08] No. We will use paraffin can lamps, which is basically. Is like a bottle of kerosene.
John Dehlin [00:56:15] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:56:16] And then, you know, that way our lamps. Whoa. Yeah. So imagine me hearing plumbing, indoor plumbing. Nope. We have what are called blade toilets, which are basically outside, like, you know what I mean? Like, they would dig a pit and then they'll build a structure on top of that pit with all the ventilation system and everything. So you go to the bathroom outside of the house, you know.
John Dehlin [00:56:38] How would you get water?
Gerald Benzi [00:56:40] We. We would go to either streams. And by that time, the government started drilling boreholes, which are basically like a manual pump that you manually pump water from the ground. That's how we go, like, clean, clean, clean drinking water.
John Dehlin [00:56:54] So who would have brought the water from the well to your house growing up?
Gerald Benzi [00:56:59] That's us. That's the kids. That was our choice. You, like, later in the day, you take your containers, you run to the well or the bowl or the stream, you fetch the water, you bring it back home, and you fill your storage containers. So we would separate our water so there was a drinking water, especially because some bowls will run dry, you know, during dry seasons. So the community would ration the water. But, okay, bowl water is safe for drinking. So that's cooking and drinking water. Only in certain cases, they would allow like 40 liters per family, you know, for drinking and cooking. So we would do that. Go to the well, fetch the water, bring it home, fill it up in your reservoir containers, and. And then you go to the stream for water, for bathing and things like that. So you fill it up like, say, from 4pm until dinner, and then you cook your dinner such that in the morning when you wake up and you're going to school, you don't have to go to the stream. You can take a bath from your bucket that you brought in last night, then you go to school. Otherwise, if you try to do that in the morning, you're going to be late. Right. In school started at 7am and we had to walk to that school anyway,
John Dehlin [00:58:08] you know, so the idea of a hot shower or a hot bath.
Gerald Benzi [00:58:12] No, that did not look at us. So to give you like a glimpse of how you would have a warm bath is like you have a bucket of water, Right. So we had like little. We should pretty much like paint tins, you know, used paintings. So you would put half of your water in that painting, put it on fire.
John Dehlin [00:58:35] Literally a fire.
Gerald Benzi [00:58:35] If you fire, like with firewood, you know, then you heat out, then you will transfer it to the rest of your bucket. You have warm water, then you take
John Dehlin [00:58:44] a shower in the buck. In the bucket.
Gerald Benzi [00:58:45] In the bucket, yeah. Okay, so.
John Dehlin [00:58:47] And so who would be collecting the. Who would collect the wood and who would make the fire?
Gerald Benzi [00:58:52] Oh, that's us still.
Makenzie Benzi [00:58:53] So.
Gerald Benzi [00:58:54] So this is ding, ding. Yeah. So that's how like division of labor culturally was, because that's pretty much close to how people lived. You know, back in the day, they did not have electricity or anything. So you would see that women and children will go gather firewood, then men will go hunting, right. So they'll bring the meat. Then we have the firewood and we have the water. So then we will make a meal, you know, and then we would still cultivate our own corn. This type of food in Zimbabwe is called sadza, which is basically, is a corn paste, you know, which you can eat with any relish, be it roasted meat or stew vegetables or anything you can eat with it. So that's pretty much our traditional stable food.
John Dehlin [00:59:37] So did you grow your own corn?
Gerald Benzi [00:59:39] Yes, we did. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:40] So you had subsistence level farming?
Gerald Benzi [00:59:42] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:59:42] Where you would grow the food you ate?
Gerald Benzi [00:59:44] Yes. So pretty much every. Every house would look like this. You have your house and around your house you cut. You cultivate the crops that you need to eat. So you have corn, you have your tomatoes, ground nuts and stuff like that. People like, it's really normal in Zimbabwe to have a plot of land that you cultivate to get corn and stuff, food that you can eat. So that was pretty much my childhood is.
John Dehlin [01:00:14] And what about. What about livestock? Like chickens or goats or animals, Cows. Did you have that?
Gerald Benzi [01:00:20] We did. So my grandpa, my dad's dead, he actually had a farm, so he ate. We had plenty of that. We had turkeys Goats, cows, chicken. You know, some people even kept pigeons and rabbits or something like that. So we, we do a lot of animal rearing in Zimbabwe.
John Dehlin [01:00:42] So you would kill the animals and then cut. Cut them up and eat them.
Gerald Benzi [01:00:45] Yeah, right. That's pretty much what I mean.
John Dehlin [01:00:47] This is so like, in terms of socioeconomic standard of living, that's kind of like 19th century America. I mean, this is reminding me of kind of like Little House in the Prairie kind of level subsistence. And it sounds like as far as education goes, you guys were as educated or better as. As kids growing up in the United States. So it's just because the standard of living might have been very different. I. I'm, you know, super smart and educated. So that. That's a. It's an interesting disparity.
Makenzie Benzi [01:01:20] Yeah, well, and especially like your, Your parents, how much they valued education and how much they sacrificed to send you to boarding schools. I mean, that wasn't normal, right?
Gerald Benzi [01:01:29] Yeah, yeah. Not everybody went to boarding schools. Like, going to a boarding school was kind of like privilege. Yeah, privilege. And like, quite a good status in the community. Like, oh, your son goes to a boarding school, you know, so, yeah. Going back to your question you were asking, so pretty much like you. Our lifestyle growing up, that division of labor was like, pretty normative. Like, it's like, yeah, yeah, I am. I'm the kid. I'm gonna go fetch water, I'm gonna gather firewood, and I want to start the fire. So when my mom comes in and she wants to make a meal, the fire is already going. And in the morning, too. It's your responsibility if you want to have a warm bath, to start the fire in the morning, because no one else was going to do that for you. Right.
Guest [01:02:08] So.
Gerald Benzi [01:02:08] So we'd wake up, start the fire. We already have the water from yesterday. Then, voila, one bath. So that's pretty much how most of my childhood was like. But then we moved to a place that had electricity. So that's pretty much the electricity was just like using it for cooking and lighting pretty much most of the time. So it's still no plumbing. Still outside, bathroom. So the easiest part about that is, well, maybe now we can heat up our water without lighting up a fire. Right. So. And we can cook cleaner inside the house without cooking outside, because the other house we lived in, we had to cook outside because, I mean, it's a fire, you know, there's smoke and everything. So we would cook outside and bring the food inside. So that was like an upgrade. Okay, now we can cook inside the house. Yeah. You know, and in the morning, I can just turn on a heating element and I will have warm water inside my bucket.
Makenzie Benzi [01:03:10] You know, talk about you watching your little tv. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:14] I was going to ask about Internet, too. So TV and Internet.
Gerald Benzi [01:03:16] We did not have Internet. We watched like. I don't know what they call it. Just like when you put up your antenna outside and then you watch the.
John Dehlin [01:03:27] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [01:03:27] Government broadcast, you know, station.
John Dehlin [01:03:30] How old are you right now?
Gerald Benzi [01:03:32] So it. That.
John Dehlin [01:03:33] No, right now. Right now. Today.
Gerald Benzi [01:03:35] Oh, today. Today I'm turning 31.
John Dehlin [01:03:37] I'm 31.
Gerald Benzi [01:03:38] I'm doing that one.
John Dehlin [01:03:39] So this would have been, you know, 15 years ago. We're talking about 15 years ago.
Gerald Benzi [01:03:45] Yeah. Oh, more. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest [01:03:47] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [01:03:47] So. Yeah, so we did not have a lot of entertainment options. We watched whatever they broadcasted. Right. And we had black and white televisions back then. Like, having a colored television was like, wow, where did you guys get that? You know, it wasn't as common to have a color television. And also, TV sets were not as common in housewives because, again, most people did not have electricity, so you wouldn't even have it. You know, people had radios, you know, that was very common because they would buy batteries and stuff, and then they like little. Little boom boxes or whatever I can call them like that would listen to the radio stations. And we had more variety listening to the radio. Anyway. I think at that point we had four radio stations because it was like radio 1, 2, 3 and 4.
John Dehlin [01:04:37] You know, I mean, it almost sounds like you went from kind of 19th century socioeconomic status to like, 1950s and 60s just within a few years. That's a rapid advancement.
Gerald Benzi [01:04:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:04:49] And by the way, Africa is set to, like, as I understand it, quadruple in its population over the next 10 or 20 years. So Africa is on the rise in a very significant way. So they're. They may have been behind in some ways, but they're going to be catching up very quickly.
Gerald Benzi [01:05:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:05:05] Most economists, as I understand it, are projecting Africa to become a major global center within the next several decades.
Gerald Benzi [01:05:13] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:05:14] So, I mean, it's. It's cool to see you guys are able to advance so quickly.
Gerald Benzi [01:05:18] Yeah, that's true. So the funny thing about that, too is, like, in that same. In that same time, I am living like that. Someone who was living in the city, like Harare is living a totally different lifestyle.
John Dehlin [01:05:31] Right.
Gerald Benzi [01:05:31] Because they have electricity, they have plumbing. They are not looking for firewood. They are not. They're not having the same struggles as I am, you know, so you find that if you talk to someone my age who did not grow up in the part of the country I grew up, they would tell you a total different story. Like, oh, yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:05:47] I mean, well, even your college experience still in ZIM was different. You still had a laptop. You were watching American television.
John Dehlin [01:05:54] Yeah, it was an upgrade. College was.
Gerald Benzi [01:05:55] It was an upgrade.
Guest [01:05:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:05:56] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [01:05:57] Yeah. So, yeah, there's a lot of things to eat that I used to tell MacKenzie too. He's like, okay, when we're in college now, we are now using Internet. We watched a lot of shows, American shows, than. Pretty much an average American or someone, because we. We now have access to these, like, size that are pirating stuff from here, right?
John Dehlin [01:06:20] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [01:06:21] And we are watching movie after movie, show after movie, are downloading them on our laptops and stuff. You know what I mean? So it's. It's like in the same country, you can have people who are living in different time frames and it's like a giant bracket.
John Dehlin [01:06:37] No, it's almost like you went from 19th century socioeconomic status to 21st century socioeconomic status in a period of like four or five years. That's. That's kind of interesting that you got to experience that wide range of different styles of living. It's interesting. So I'm curious, once you arrive in Milwaukee, I would. My. My American bias would say it would. Even though in America I've been. I've been to Milwaukee, like, you know, there are rundown urban centers that feel from United States standards to be very, like, socioeconomically kind of lower status, high crime, higher levels of poverty here by today's standards. I would wonder whether Milwaukee might still feel like an upgrade coming from Zimbabwe to you, but you're saying felt problematic in some ways?
Adjusting to Life in Milwaukee
Gerald Benzi [01:07:36] Yeah, I would say part of it is like expectation versus reality. Right. So someone is. Is telling me is like, okay, so when you move to this place, this is what you're going to see, even though you are living a life that is way worse than that. But, like, you're walking into this environment expecting crazy advanced society where, like, everyone here is living in this beautiful mansion and things like that. And then boom, like, you see this other side of America that you were not taught at all and you don't know how to leave that. You know, you're just like, okay. Because I remember thinking to myself, walking in one neighborhood in Milwaukee, I think it's like the 35th area or. Or something. That's pretty much things that you see in those kind of rap videos people do not watch. Because it's some underground artist guy with the two of his friends with a digital camera and they're just like fuming. These, these, you know, run down residential area, you know, people are sitting on their pouch wearing wife beaters or shade lace and things like that. So working in that environment is not what my mind expected America to be. You know what I mean? So still, even though I'm getting the pics that I did not live before, at the same time there's this sense of like, shock. Like, wait, how come nobody talks about this, this thing? Like, how come this is real? Because I've never thought, like I would walk up to a neighborhood where I see that and it's actually real. Like, yeah, you will see someone asking you for a dollar in America. Like, that was never something that people would tell you. Like, oh, yeah, they're homeless people. In America, nobody says something like that. So seeing people in a line, it's like a church, because they want to spend that night still kind of bothered me because I was like, I don't understand how this works. Like, I'm a foreigner, I have an apartment. Even though it's not what I expected, there is someone who was born here, who is living this life that if I go back to Zimbabwe, this person will have their heart, you know what I mean? They have their little, their little building they call a home, you know, no matter how small it is, they will have. Yeah, they are not gonna sleep at the street, you know what I mean? So that's what I was like. Back home we had what we called street kids, which were kids like that would like go to the city and hang out in the streets, you know what I mean? Some of them will go home at night, you know, Very few of them were homeless to such an extent that they would sleep on the street. So it wasn't like a really first world idea to see someone who says, yeah, literally like, I don't have anywhere to spend the night tonight.
Makenzie Benzi [01:10:26] Our toilets are outside. But we still have toilets.
Gerald Benzi [01:10:28] Exactly. You know, I was like, yeah, we still, we still have those amenities, or if you call it amenities. Yeah, so, yeah, so that was, that was something I was really surprised to see, you know, and also that the idea that gunshots are normal sounds to hear and no one takes cover or anything, just really on the news or like, who hear about it. So my first time walking down there and I thought I heard something, but I was like, I don't know what, what it is. And then I went home and there it was on Wisconsin 12, yeah. Two people were shot. And I was like, I know that street. Like, that's literally the 7 11. I was it. So that was also something that the movies we watch now back home, they portray that lifestyle is as if, like, oh, these are places that like the government is trying to fix. Like, and they are very rare, like you. It's not a normal life. This is like something you will not see if you come to America. So me being exposed to that, I was like, I don't know. I don't know what Milwaukee is, but I don't like it at this moment. Like, I don't think, like, this is the first world I was imagining. And people like telling me things like, hey, when you come out of the labor at night, like, don't wear a hoodie. And I was like, why wouldn't I? Because those are the cool people we see on the television, right? Like the way they're flat bay cases, caps, and they have woodies. Why wouldn't I do that? Why wouldn't I want to look like that? You know, because come on, is America, right? But they're like, nah, it is. But Canada is not, you know, it's not safe. Yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [01:12:15] In the United States.
Gerald Benzi [01:12:16] Yeah. And that took me a while to actually understand what they were saying to me, you know, Actually I. I did understand that after I left Miwa guys, when I was like, wait, so this is what this means? Like, oh, yeah, you can be mistaken for someone. You can. You know what I mean? And I remember telling my kids these after a few of things happened, and I was like, you know what? There are times when I would walk home and I'll see the public safety car behind me, you know, like kind of bowling behind me, you know.
John Dehlin [01:12:52] Oh, like, please.
Gerald Benzi [01:12:52] Yeah. And like, they would kind of like observe me for a little bit. But because I'm a student, it never occurred to me, you know, like, what that can turn out to be. I was just like, yeah, it's public safety. Right. Probably they know I'm a student walking you home. Yeah, they're just like walking me home, you know.
John Dehlin [01:13:08] But it was driving while black. They saw that you were a person of color.
Gerald Benzi [01:13:11] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:13:11] They're scoping you out, profiling you potentially to pull you over.
Gerald Benzi [01:13:15] So I did not even. That did not even happen because I have this idea of how beautiful, good, civilized, advanced this place is. Right. So even if I'm coming in big home, like, the police are good people, right? Like, I never assumed, like, oh, yeah, you can have an interaction with the police. Where you can die. Like, it was never, like an idea that I would think for myself. So seeing that here was kind of. It made me uncomfortable, I would say, even though I'm like, okay, it's like you're trading pecs, you know, they're like, okay, so you can live in this place where you can. You can do whatever you want, you can build your house, live however you want. We're not going to talk to you. Right. But you're not going to have plumbing. You have to fetch your own wardrobe, blah, blah, blah. You don't have a perfect healthcare system. You know, like, it's. It's run down, whatever, versus, okay, watch your bag every time. But then you get an apartment with running water and stuff, you know, So I feel like, is this a trade? Am I trading, you know, something that I've enjoyed my entire life because I've never questioned the police before. I've never. I felt safe around them. But then you go into this environment where everyone is like, yeah, actually, people will go. You have to be careful when you interview. Like, wait, what are you talking about? So that was a shock out of me being exposed to that versus what I was expecting coming from. From home.
John Dehlin [01:14:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess there's not just two Americas, but there's lots of Americas. But what I hear you describing is the disparity between the Hollywood public image of America versus the fact that there are parts of America where the mortality rate of children is higher than in many African countries.
Gerald Benzi [01:14:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:14:58] Where. Where the levels of crime and poverty and homelessness exceeds many, many African countries.
Gerald Benzi [01:15:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:08] But, you know, so we have a real problem of disparity of wealth in the United States and a poverty and of injustice that isn't communicated in our media always.
Gerald Benzi [01:15:18] That's true. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:20] And you were shocked.
Makenzie Benzi [01:15:20] Well, and I even have. I've even had members of my own family asking him, like, so is back home, like the inner cities here, like, that's their view of. Of his home?
Gerald Benzi [01:15:31] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:15:32] Is that level of poverty and crime and.
Gerald Benzi [01:15:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:38] And you talk about. You talk about racial segregation in Americans, urban cities. I guess you wouldn't have experienced a lot of segregation in Zimbabwe because pretty much everyone, Most people there are people of color. So there wouldn't even be enough racial diversity to have racial segregation or. I don't want to make assumptions. I know that South Africa is very different than Zimbabwe. Yeah, but is that why you would not have experienced racial segregation?
Gerald Benzi [01:16:07] Yeah, I did understood the idea of segregation, but the way I landed in Zimbabwe, it was like you know, during the time we were colonized, right? Yeah. It existed where black people were not allowed in certain streets. Black people were not allowed in certain neighborhoods. Right. Then I read it in books, and that was part of my school curriculum, but I never actually lived it. You know, I remember, like, walking down first street with my dad, and he's like telling me, you know, we. You. We used to need a permit for us to walk down this street. You know, some of the effects. You can still see them. If you go back to Zimbabwe, you will see, like, they are beautiful neighbors that you see. They were pretty. They were like white neighbors, you know, So I never really lived it, but I would say so. Black people being segregated from white people was kind of like a normal idea to me. Even though I did not leave it, I'm as familiar with it. But the difference between that in America is, in America, there's not just a white man and a black man. It's like a spectrum of brown people all the way to white people. Right? So in a city like Milwaukee, now I remember I observed myself before I even, like, read about it. It's like, they are Hispanics on one side, and they are, like, black people one side, and they are neighbors in Milwaukee that literally people will tell you, like, don't go there if you're black. You know, like, don't go there. And I. I never visited those places because the bus doesn't even go there. Right. So then later on just like realizing, like, wait a second. I know, big home, like, we are not as diverse as here, but I've seen Indian people, big home, right? And I. I couldn't really pinpoint a situation where, like, we were, like, separating ourselves from them. Right. So it kind of felt weird to me that even, like, black people get segregated from Hispanics get segregated from Indians, even though in any other part of the world, we are pretty much kind of like the same people, you know, like, there's some. There's not. There's nothing like that. So that was a shortcut for me, too, when I was like, okay, and everyone in Milwaukee is like, they have like a German background or something, you know, and the fact that I. I thought since, like, people who are growing up at these farms as dairy farms, they might probably like, not have that mentality, you know, because back home, white people owned farms, befriended people of color because they needed labor, right? So there was not exactly segregation. Yeah. They stayed in a farmhouse that was not part of the compounds, you know what I mean? But it was like a structure, you can explain. If you walk into it, you can be like, oh, yeah, I understand. Yeah, that's the farmer. These are the workers, right? But in that scenario, me seeing that, I couldn't explain that, you know, like, my mind couldn't comprehend why Hispanics are in one corner, why black people in one corner, why Indians in one corner, and why everyone else is somewhere that we are not allowed to go, you know, so that white people, basically. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. And also, like, heavy police presence is also something that I. I thought it was normal at first because I was like, oh, yeah, big home. Our police doesn't. Everyone is not sitting in their own car or something like that. So you don't really just see them roaming around, you know. But then I remember coming out of our lab at night one day because we had public safety department, right? Which was mainly like patrolling the campus. Then you have the Miyagi police. And I remember seeing him in. Something in my mind was just like, I wonder, like, why does Esque. Because we, at my college in Zimbabwe, he had security right at the campus. They did not look like that, you know, like they were not beefed up, armed and, you know, looking like he might end a SWAT situation at any point, you know what I mean? And I just like, remember asking myself, why does it look like that? Because they would also patrol our buildings. And I check those if they are logged in, something like that, you know. And being a PhD student, like, you spend time in the lab and like you go home late at night. So I would see them, you know, and they would just be, oh, hi, but where you coming from? And things like that. And I would just talk to them because I thought, like, it's a normal conversation, right? Like, he wants to know how my day is going, you know, but it's not like that, you know? And I just remember asking myself, why does he look like that? Like, this seems excessive, like you are in a school building, you know, Pretty much everyone uses the idea to scan and come in. Like, why do you need to come in here, you know, with like a battle and guns, blah, blah, blah, and this giant vest, you know. But I was just, oh, it's America, you know, like, they have these things, so they use it, right? They can access a bulletproof, so why not wait, right? But then as time goes on and like being exposed to things that are happening around me. Oh, a light bulb went into my head when I read like one of like the activist emails. And he's like, we need to demilitarize our school security and I was like, what does. What do they mean, demilitarized? Because coming from Africa, if someone says demilitarized, I would assume maybe they have tanks, you know, because to us, that's what militarization has been portrayed was. It's like, yeah, these people are, like, wearing these, you know, better of. You decided. I was like, okay, I don't know what they're talking about. You know? But then I started reading about it. I was like, oh, okay, so now it makes sense why I had that simple question in my head. I was like, oh, why does it look like this in the hallway? You know, that's what they were talking about. Right. So, yeah, that. That were, like, a few things that I can say that they stood out to me in a weird way, that there are things that my home cannot afford, but at the same time, here they are being. People can afford to do that, but it seems like it's in the wrong place. So it still kind of seemed weird to me. Right. So anyway.
John Dehlin [01:22:19] Fascinating. Yeah. I. I just have to say that as a. As a. As a white person in America with privilege, my base setting of thinking about America is like, oh, anyone can go anywhere and everyone's safe and everything's equal and. But that's privilege. Because if I really think about it, yes, neighborhoods are completely segregated by race. And this idea of, like, you being told by people around you, don't go into the white neighborhoods. I would never experience that as a white American, because I would never be told something like that. In fact, I would probably be told the opposite. Don't go into the. I mean, we don't have those types of neighborhoods so much in Utah. But if I'm thinking about Chicago or it's like, don't go into those neighborhoods, but for a different reason. Not because I would be perceived as unsafe, but because, you know, I might get hurt. But we are way more segregated than we understand as people of privilege in the United States. And it's really valuable to hear you talk about that, because it's gotta be really disorienting for you. And it just shows ignorance and privilege for me to realize how racially segregated and how much economic and social disparity and injustice there is in the United States.
Gerald Benzi [01:23:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:41] But as a personal privilege, you don't even have to worry about it.
Gerald Benzi [01:23:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:44] You just. You just. You're white. You get to do whatever you want. Whatever you want. You know what I mean?
Makenzie Benzi [01:23:48] Nobody would understand that until they. They tried to understand or try to listen to someone else whose experience.
John Dehlin [01:23:54] But I don't think of America that way. Do you understand what I'm saying, Carol? Like, in my privileged mind, America's great. It's land of the free, home of the brave. It's safe for everybody.
Guest [01:24:03] It makes me think of that Louis CK Joke where he's like, I could go to the year two, and I don't know what's happening in the year two, but as soon as I get out of a time machine, oh, I'm a white man. Here's a table right here for you. He's like, black people do not want to f. With time machines anytime before 1980. They're like, no, no, no, I don't want to go there.
Makenzie Benzi [01:24:19] Right. Yeah.
Guest [01:24:20] It takes. It takes good satire and good comedians, I think, to help make those bridges and connections for people like me, at least.
Gerald Benzi [01:24:25] So, yeah, that's where my mind goes.
John Dehlin [01:24:27] Well, I. You know, it's not your job to educate us, but I really appreciate that you are willing to help us understand a little bit about what it might be like for some to be a person of color in the United States.
Experiences with Race and Policing in America
Gerald Benzi [01:24:39] Yeah. I mean, another thing, too, I would like to add just, like, for maybe. I'm pretty sure you have a bunch of Africans people listening to your podcast. Like, there's this side of that story that is never told, right? So for me, coming here and interacting with other black people, I realized that, you know, I do not relate to America the same way they do. So there's always, like. I remember going to a bar at one time, and we are playing pool, right? And this guy asked me where I'm from. Then I told him, and he said something like, oh, so you are African, huh? And I said, yeah. And he said, you go to market? And I said, yeah, I do. And things kind of, you know, changed in a way, because. Because of this system we have, it is made other African Americans here believe that Africans can relate to white people and white people like Africans, you know? But I'm walking in this situation not knowing that. And, yeah, it might be true, because I. I remember telling my kids an incident that I had with my African American friend when we got pulled over, right? And then the officer said, can they. He took the driver's license of the person was driving, right? And then he asked me for my identification, and I just whipped it out and gave it to him. And my friend was sitting in the back, and he's like, you don't. You don't. You don't need to give him that, you know? And I was like, why? Why wouldn't I, like. I mean, he's an officer, you know, and he's like, yeah, you didn't do anything. If anything, like, he should talk to the driver, you know? So the fact that I am agreeing to his actions, because I do not understand what that can mean to people of color being put over, right? In him trying to educate me in that instance, like, no, this is not how it works, right? Kind of like created a conflict between us and it justified how he felt towards me. It's like, yeah, this is exactly what I was saying. Like, you guys, you are nice. You. You kind of like them. And I'm like, no, I. It's not like I like them. I do not understand or relate to the, like, your experience that you've had here. Because, mind you, I just came here, right? So I don't even know of people being profiled. I don't even know about what happens when you get pulled over and something like that. So I'm kind of, like, naive in a sense, you know? But then this happens too, when, like, the officers, the moment they realize, like, oh, he's a student at market, right? And most likely with his accent is not from here, they. They will talk nicer to me, right? You know, so now they're kind of like, justifying, reinforcing what. Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:27:35] Friend just said.
Gerald Benzi [01:27:36] So my friend now is hostile in that scenario because me and the officer can talk nicely, right? He came like, yeah, you can have a. You can have a good night, say, right? Then he give it to me, right? Then he asks. He asked him his. And he says no. So now it's two versus one, right? Two black guys gave me the identification, no problem. Why are they one who's saying no, right? So I am putting him in a weird position because I do not relate to his experience, you know? And, yeah, things can get worse for you, and I don't know that. So you will find that, like, it's a very common thing for African Americans here to be careful when they interact with us because most of us. Most of us from Africa, we do not understand exactly how it is here, you know, and what it means. Certain actions, what they mean to me, they don't mean anything because I don't know a previous story that, like, resulted in someone losing their life, you know, I'm just like, okay, it's authority, right? So here's my. Here's my license. I didn't do anything wrong or something like that. So it's also, like, a side of that story that. Oh, man, most people do not get to hear. But it happens in our communities where, like, people are like, oh, yeah, yeah, Africans are so disciplined. But we are. It's not because we're disciplined. It's because we do not have certain information, you know, in certain exposure to those things. So it's something I was trying to explain to my brother, and he also struggled understanding it. You know, he's like, why? Why wouldn't he just give it to him? You know? And I did not even understand the fact that, like, people here, like, you have a record and it can be run anytime. It can be used against you when you are not even aware of it. To me, I did not think like that. And it was like, yeah, I don't know, maybe he's gonna document it somewhere that he pulled you over and the next time you do something, then it's like kind of like a second offense that you are not aware of or something like that. It did not even occur to me in that scenario that giving him our IDs and him going to his car, he can document it. And you know what? I mean, whether there's something wrong or whether there's nothing, you know, nothing wrong, it can be used against us next time. Like, yeah, you guys, you in downtown at 2am this day, blah, blah, blah. And then it makes us look like we have a certain lifestyle that we do not have. And it took me years and years until I actually, like, started going back to those experiences with other black people where I'm like, oh, now it makes sense why someone will be kind of pissed at me for befriending that officer who is doing extra to us in a way that is kind of like profiling us. But in that moment, coming from Africa, oh, yeah, I am happy. Like, I don't interact with police that much. Like, so if I'm. If I interact with him and I feel like I did not do anything wrong, you know, I don't think. I don't think anything worries about him. So I'm just like, yeah, you can have it. I mean, I'm just sitting in a passenger seat. What are you going to say? You know, so, yeah, it's one of them.
John Dehlin [01:30:33] I can't. I cannot imagine if I were a US Citizen, person of color raised here, to see a foreign national of the same skin color get treated better than me because I was raised here and because of whatever prejudices and biases are carried because of a person of color raised in the United States, that would. I'm sure there's a name for this. Yeah, I'VE never really thought it makes sense to me now. Just because of prejudice, like a person of color raised in, you know, a lower socioeconomic status, I could see why there would be prejudice against them here because they associate crime, which is associated with poverty and endanger or whatever. But that, that bigotry would just be so disheartening for me as a U.S. citizen. And it would be hard for you to be caught up in that because you're just here to try and get an education. Like, yeah, it's awful all the way around.
Makenzie Benzi [01:31:35] And I didn't even. I had no idea until I met you. And you talked to me about your experience in the black community in Wisconsin and how that was pretty widespread. I mean, it was like black Americans versus African American or Africans in a lot of ways. And even just like the ideas of slavery and black Americans blaming Africans for allowing slavery to occur. You know, so it's just the idea that it's been so separated and that there's not even a given community here with people that look like you and have the same ancestry. Right. But there's these perceptions and these misunderstandings and even these. These black Americans, maybe they haven't been racially profiled in every instance, but they've been raised by parents that have and have taught them how to interact with the police, how to deal with this, you know, and. And coming from a country where that's never even been a discussion, you're just at such a disadvantage. And that just reinforces everything that these black Americans think about Africans. And, oh, you're here. You've had the privilege to come to the United States. You're obviously rich enough and you're smart enough to be here when they don't. They don't know where you came from and your story and your experience. So it's. It's complicated and it's. It's really sad that that happens.
John Dehlin [01:32:54] I remember. I remember when Barack Obama was running for president or became president, I remember Stephen Colbert interviewing a woman of color who is like an academic basically stating that Barack Obama wasn't really an African American because he was raised in white, you know, Hawaii, America, because he had African ancestry instead of, you know, African American ancestry because he didn't have a speech pattern that would be associated with kind of, you know, being raised as an African American in the United States.
Makenzie Benzi [01:33:29] Right.
John Dehlin [01:33:29] That he. It wasn't necessarily the victory for people of color in the United States that they would have ultimately liked to see because he really didn't represent them in speech. And now it's making more sense to me why people raised as African Americans would say, well, we're not quite there. Like, yes, it's great that a person of color is president, but he actually doesn't really represent us. And just now I'm making the connections more as to what was meant by that, because Stephen Colbert kind of makes fun of her a little bit by saying he's not really an African American. But. But now I see why that mattered to her and why that probably matters to a lot of people, I don't know.
Makenzie Benzi [01:34:12] Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, if you. If you came in speaking with an African American dialect, right, Then they. They would acknowledge that. But, yeah, you would speak, quote, more like a white person. And so for them,
Guest [01:34:25] you're more.
John Dehlin [01:34:25] You're more European or Afro.
Makenzie Benzi [01:34:27] Like, not, like, it's too proper English.
Gerald Benzi [01:34:29] Yeah, it's too. Also, like, this is the other thing, too I noticed, too, is like, you know, if you're interacting with someone with, like, races, right in the moment, like, I give it away the moment I open my mouth, right, they will hear an accent, so. Meaning, chances are I am not from here. Like, if I am this age and I still talk the way I do, I'm probably, like, really new to what happens here, right? So even, like, me saying. I remember saying, like, oh, policing youth are really nice, you know, it's something I have said to my friends because I have interacted with them. I have said in a policeman's car, when they had pulled me, pulled me over for speeding, and he was taking me through what their scanner does when you are on the road, right? So that's an experience I have. I remember him taking me inside. He's like, come here, let me show you something. So when you're driving down the road, this is what I see. This is why I put you over. So this is your place, this is your insured. Blah, blah, blah, Right?
Makenzie Benzi [01:35:30] Something like a friendly chat.
Gerald Benzi [01:35:31] It's a friendly chat. I have committed an offense. I was speeding, right? And then at the end, he writes me my tickets. Niles. Like, yeah, I mean, you were doing more than five over, but I'm just gonna write you for. You know, for five. I was just gonna say five, right? So for me, that, that, that. That interaction, I was like, wow. I don't know. Like, these. These guys are like. They're so good, you know, but, like, going back, I'm like, the moment I started talking, he probably was like, this guy, like, he's very polite. You know, he has an accent. He just like, yeah, yesterday. No say. And then he's like, okay, cool.
John Dehlin [01:36:08] He's just biased.
Gerald Benzi [01:36:09] Yeah, he's. He's biased. Right. So in me walking around with that experience and telling other people who literally have had the worst experience with the police, like, who validate the same exact point McKenzie was talking about, it's like, oh, yeah, sure. So you guys are buddy buddies, right? Like, this is the same guy who probably pulled me over and, like, gave me a ton of hell for something that doesn't even like, really matter. And you just told me you were speeding, you know? Yeah, yeah, so I do. I did realize that after a while, I was like, oh. There's also a form of profiling that I am not aware of. The moment I like, start talking, you know, or like, how you are dressed. And then someone's like, yeah, it seems proper. Like, I'm not gonna giving him any trouble. He probably knows a lawyer because he's formally dressed or something. You know what I mean?
John Dehlin [01:36:55] Like, international privilege, basically.
Gerald Benzi [01:36:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:36:57] I'm just gonna check in really quick with the audience and with Kara. Like, Kara and I have been talking about, like, is there a way we can. You know, we are always. A lot of Mormon stories. Listeners love long form. And then of course, we always get that feedback of, like, make it shorter. I can't watch a five hours, eight hour episode. So, Karen, I are always talking about, is there a way to make them shorter, but to still keep them high quality? And so I'm checking in with my brain and maybe with care a little bit. Like, wow, we've taken a lot of time just talking about what it's like to be a person of color in the United States and from the. But I'm not. I'm kind of not apologetic about it. Like, none of this has anything to do with Mormonism.
Makenzie Benzi [01:37:31] I know. I'm like, is this the right podcast?
John Dehlin [01:37:33] No, but I mean, it's what's more like we talk about racism and Mormonism. Like, if we can't talk about racism in the broader culture, like, I think we're missing something. And you are so generous to be helping us learn more and understand more. I kind of want to. There's a part of my Mormon podcast brain that's like, sorry, we're talking so much about not Mormon stuff. And then it's the sorry, not sorry. Because, like, this is gold for me to help us understand better why we all need to think better and do better as a society. Because America's got a lot of. There's a lot of, like, Flag waivers, like Mark America. Love America on Mormon stories. And then there's people that see a lot of problems, and this helps us see the problems. We can still love America and become more.
Makenzie Benzi [01:38:18] Because we love America, that we want it to be better.
Gerald Benzi [01:38:21] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:38:21] You know, if we didn't care, then we would just leave and try somewhere else, you know?
Gerald Benzi [01:38:26] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:38:26] And let it burn.
John Dehlin [01:38:27] But are you okay? Carry you mad at me?
Guest [01:38:29] No, I love. Actually, ironically, on the drive over this morning, I was listening to a YouTube video that was an analysis of the movie Borat.
Gerald Benzi [01:38:36] You love Borat.
Guest [01:38:37] Absolute favorite. And because you would love Bora by
Makenzie Benzi [01:38:40] Mormon stories, it makes sense.
Guest [01:38:45] It's the satire. Yeah. And I think what Sash Baron Cohen was doing is he was coming to America and kind of trying to highlight the different types of bigotry that exist. And there's more overt and more covert versions. There's like, the frat boys who are kind of drunk and being as bigoted as possible. And then there's the more, like, submissive, nice old lady ones that just think that anyone from a different country is a backwards, completely, like, doesn't even know how to wipe their own ass, just, like, as stupid as humanly possible. And that's kind of what I. I didn't realize that this would actually tie into. Kind of. What we're talking about is we're not talking about Mormonism. We're talking about broader cultural ideas that I think a lot of us Americans are raised with of how we view other cultures.
Gerald Benzi [01:39:27] Right.
Guest [01:39:27] And I think what Gerald just highlighted is the way that he talked about living in, you know, really meager means without electricity, growing up, and then just slowly advancing. But then you have different struggles when you move to America. That there's. It's just. It's just changing around different aspects, but you still have different struggles. And the way that Americans. That we have this exceptionalist view a lot of times that because we have electricity, that we're better, but we still have systemic issues that just like every country does.
John Dehlin [01:39:56] Right.
Guest [01:39:56] But we still have issues that we need to tackle. So I'm really glad that we're having this discussion. So it highlights a lot of really important things.
John Dehlin [01:40:02] Thanks for being willing to help us learn more.
Guest [01:40:04] Yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [01:40:06] All right, so you're in Milwaukee. You're at Marquette.
Gerald Benzi [01:40:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:40:10] That's a good school. That's where Dwyane Wade went, by the way. He's. I'm an NBA fan.
Gerald Benzi [01:40:14] And, yeah, I was supporting them. Miami at that time because of him.
John Dehlin [01:40:18] Oh, yeah.
Gerald Benzi [01:40:19] One of the team Where I support.
John Dehlin [01:40:21] Eventually. Eventually, Milwaukee won the NBA Finals. Yeah. So that. That probably elevated Milwaukee's international profile.
Gerald Benzi [01:40:29] That's true. And it makes me feel bad because I did not support the Bucks. And all of a sudden, they had this wonderful genie and won the championship. And I was like, oh, man, I could have any bugs. Funny. And I'll be happy right now.
John Dehlin [01:40:39] And even though Giannis is from Greece, his ancestors obviously, originally. Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [01:40:44] They call him the Free Greek.
John Dehlin [01:40:46] Yeah. What country. Do you remember what country Giannis is from?
Gerald Benzi [01:40:51] I'm not really sure.
John Dehlin [01:40:52] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [01:40:53] Yeah, I. I know. Human is, brother. Like, they. They've always, you know, the crazy Greek Greek boys.
Learning About and Joining the Mormon Church
John Dehlin [01:40:59] All right, so let's. Let's. Let's take us to the point where you are, you know, learning about Mormonism, and we'll. We'll stop right there.
Gerald Benzi [01:41:08] Yeah. So. Yeah. So then I had this scenario where my professor, right, in Milwaukee didn't turn out to be much of a good person as I thought he was. So I make this decision where I'm like, okay, I need to change schools, right? So I am researching around what kind of scholarships I can get and what kind of schools I can get into. So.
John Dehlin [01:41:30] Because you're in grad school at this point.
Gerald Benzi [01:41:31] Yeah, I'm in grad school. So I am, like, applying to Europe and trying to see which schools can afford. Because now, at this point, because I was in a scholarship that was paying everything for me, right now I'm trying to make a decision where I have to factor in that I might have to take to encase some of the cost of going to grad school. Then out of the blues, my friend, that we lost conduct when we were. I can't remember. I think we were, like, 12. That's the last time we actually seen each other. Then out of the blues, he just messaged me on Facebook. He's like, hey, where you at? And I was like, oh, wow. So we started talking after, I don't know, a decade when we're talking to each other, and then I found out that he is living in Provo, right? And I was like, oh, cool. I am in Milwaukee, and I've been talking to some professor from a school called BYU that is in Provo, Utah. That's where you are. So then I immediately, like, send him an email, and I was like, can I come see your lab and talk to you? You know, and so you can understand better my situation and if I can maybe move, you know, from market and transfer to byu. And he's like, oh, sure, you can Come here. I'm on vacation right now, but I'll update you out. Probably around. I think he said, around February, I'll be in Provo. So I was like, okay, awesome. So I planned my trip to come down to Provo to see my friend, then see him. So at this point, even though I know there's a school called byu, I don't really understand that. It's a momon school. And my friend who I'm talking to is also momon. Right. And I don't know this at this point, so I visit him down here. And then I was taking trips, like, to just see byu, the campus itself. And then that's when I kind of, like, was trying to understand what this school is about, you know? And then I come back home and I was like, hey, can you tell me more about byu? Like, I kind of feel like there is kind of a market vibe, you know, because Market is a Jesuit school. Right. So you pretty much see the Catholic stuff everywhere. And I did see Mamon stuff. Everybody. I did not know what that was because I. I don't know what Mormonism is. Right. So then he starts, like, telling me about the church. He's like, oh, actually, I am a woman. I was like, oh, really? How. How did you. How did you.
John Dehlin [01:44:05] And you grew up with them in Zimbabwe.
Gerald Benzi [01:44:06] Yeah. And how did you become a woman? So he explained to me that his sister, I think, was a momon, and he has been inactive for a while. So he kind of rejoined the church again after. After we met. Right. So he became a member then the time we were not talking, he was a member. So we never spoke about the church at all. Like, it was never a conversation. So that's how I found out he belonged to the church. Right. So I'm like, okay, cool. I mean, I know you. You're a good person, you know? Like, I don't. I didn't assume anything about the church at that point. And I started, like, learning, like, about the church. Like, I remember going on YouTube, like, in typing the moment change. So funny thing is, from Wisconsin. No, I. I'm staying with him in Provo right now.
John Dehlin [01:45:03] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [01:45:03] Okay. So I'm, like, looking up things about the church because, of course, I want to know other things to impress the professor with. Right. Like, oh, yeah, I find out this about your school and things like that.
John Dehlin [01:45:13] So apply.
Gerald Benzi [01:45:13] Yeah. To apply.
John Dehlin [01:45:15] Interviewing. Okay.
Gerald Benzi [01:45:16] And YouTube is not the best place to look for those things I started.
John Dehlin [01:45:22] Or it is
Gerald Benzi [01:45:25] not if you want to impress a woman professor. And I was bombarded by these documentaries about Joseph Smith. And I was like, okay, at that point, I ignored it, right? And then my meeting with the professor kind of fell through at that point. So I was just, like, hanging out in pro with him. And then at that moment, my relationship with my professor in Milwaukee, that's when he turned really sour. And he did not like the fact that I was looking into other schools. And he wrote a letter to my graduate school telling them how terrible of a person I was. So I made a decision of not going back in that instant. So why my experience in Milwaukee and everything I was talking about before is relevant is I found myself in a place where I felt lost. Like, okay, now I. It looks like I'm gonna get kicked out of grad school, right? And I do not see a way I can make amends with my professor. And I don't like him as a person. So I did not see myself going back to him, begging to take me back, right? And I was just like, okay, it is what it is. I have to figure out a new plan, right? So I'm lost. And my only hope now is hopefully BYU understand me and take me in, right? So I went back again to byu, trying to see the professor. I don't know if I can say his name, but I'm not gonna say it. So. And then they give me an application. You can apply. And so during the application, that's when I found out that if you belong to this church, school is going to be cheaper for you. You might afford it. And I was like, wait, I don't understand this, right? So I went back to my friend, I'm talking to him, okay? So it's saying, yeah, if you are a mom, like, what is that? Like, what. What does this mean? Right? So then he starts explaining to me about, okay, if. So if you belong to the change like me. And then, you know, and I was like, how. How do you. How do you prove. Giz, I have an experience in the back of my. Of my mind when I fooled people to be a Catholic before, right?
Makenzie Benzi [01:47:41] So I've done this before.
Gerald Benzi [01:47:43] I do understand I have that ability if I need to use it, right? So I'm asking him, like, so how. How. How. How do you. How do you prove to people that you're a mom? Like, tell me more about it. So, like, he's like, golden question.
John Dehlin [01:47:55] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [01:47:55] So he's telling me, like, okay, so for someone like you, you have to meet the missionaries, take your classes, get baptized, take more classes, get endowed. What is getting endowed? And we Go into another conversation. I'm like, okay, this seems like it's gonna take a while. I cannot do this. So in my head, I was like, okay, I'm not. I'm not gonna fake this because I want to go to school. You know, at that point, I have to admit, it did not feel right for me to do that, you know? And I remember talking to my mom and trying to explain to my parents, like, so it looks like I'm no longer going to be in that grad school. Right. So I need to find other more opportunities for me to continue with my education. And it was difficult news for me to tell them. Right. Because I also felt like I blew. I blew a golden opportunity. Like, I had my school paid for, or I had to do was just like, you know, suck it up and deal with this person I did not like until I graduate. But as a person, I cannot do that. Like, I cannot pretend we are cool when you are not cool. I cannot. I don't know. I cannot compromise.
Makenzie Benzi [01:49:08] It wasn't that you just didn't like him. Like, he had a history of.
Gerald Benzi [01:49:11] Yeah, he. Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:49:12] Not graduating PhD candidates and not publishing their work. So.
Gerald Benzi [01:49:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:49:16] So he was kind of abusive.
Gerald Benzi [01:49:18] Yeah, in a way. And this dude is not even, like, American. Like, he's from Vietnam. And he is a weird work ethic where he would ask me to come into the lab during weekends. Like, I have to be constantly in the lab. Even times when I felt like I have pretty much done everything I need to do right now. Like, I need to go home and relax. Because I was also a teaching assistant. And that was hard for me to be a teaching assistant here because the. I am participating in an education system that I'm not familiar with. So apart from teaching itself, there is a lot of cultural stuff I have to learn so I can interact with American kids. Right. So it was a lot on my plate. And I remember, like, giving this conversation with him, like, okay, when I'm this semester that I am a ta, can we chew on the research? On the research stuff? Because I have to do labs. I have to grade their papers. I have to communicate with the professors of the classes I am a TA On. Right. So it's a lot of. I don't have time in the lab. But his thing was like, yeah, once you're done with your teaching, come to the lab and do your work. Pretty much. I'm not sleeping at this point. Right. Because I. I have to do my labs. I receive my reports from my students and grade them and help Them. And I also have TA hours where I just sit there. They come with their problems, I deal with them. Right. And they still email me afterwards. And I'm like, this is a lot. Right?
John Dehlin [01:50:45] Yeah. I'll just say, as someone who went through grad school, as an American, privileged grad school can be highly exploitative where, where you pay. You pay grad students almost nothing.
Gerald Benzi [01:50:57] Right.
John Dehlin [01:50:58] And they live in sometimes very
Gerald Benzi [01:51:02] low
John Dehlin [01:51:02] socioeconomic status kind of levels. And then you're at the. You're at the mercy of your. Your advisor. And if your advisor is abusive or inconsiderate, your life can be really hell. And I'd say half of the people in my cohort who were Americans from middle to upper middle class families washed out of graduate school. So it's brutal in and of itself. If, If English is your second language and you're here on a student visa and you're here from a foreign country and, and you're. And that financial assistance is essential for you.
Gerald Benzi [01:51:36] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:51:36] You could be absolutely exploited in. Very, very unhealthy.
Makenzie Benzi [01:51:40] And this wasn't his first time. You had met people that he had done that.
Gerald Benzi [01:51:44] Yeah, yeah. The. The other guy who I was sort of like replacing, he was also from Zimbabwe, and he was telling me how it's been. Like, I observed him his final year, and it was brutal. And he had a family here, and I didn't know he had a wife and a kid. And he was telling me stories about other students that pretty much did not graduate from the same lab. And he kind of had a reputation too, even in our department, you know, and these are things that I started learning when it was kind of too late for me even, like, to switch labs, you know, So I was. I was in. In a place where pretty much these new cave balls were being thrown at me. So then I found myself.
John Dehlin [01:52:30] There's a decent chance he was treating you like he was treated when he was in grad school. School, not to excuse it, but there's a decent chance he was just doing what his advisor did to him.
Gerald Benzi [01:52:39] Yeah, yeah. It makes a lot of sense too, because learning about his life, yeah, it looked like, is someone who will experience quite a difficult life, you know, coming from Vietnam and things like that. And even the way he talked about himself, you can tell he's like, I, you know, I accomplished these by struggling.
John Dehlin [01:53:01] So you struggle, you're gonna struggle.
Gerald Benzi [01:53:03] You can struggle too. Like, it's pretty normal. You know, this is part of this life. But. And I remember at one time we. It got really heated in his office. The first time he told me that he's gonna send me back from where I come from. And I literally was like. Something snapped in me. And I was like, I am 20 something years. You do realize that I've lived pretty much my entire life in Zimbabwe, right? Like, you telling me you're sending me back to Zimbabwe is not a punishment. You are sending me back to my environment. Like, this is foreign for me. And he did not like me talking to. Talking to him like that, and he kicked me out. That was the first time I received a letter from that disciplinary committee or something, you know? And then, yeah, he's like, yeah, he's disrespectful. He doesn't communicate well with me, blah, blah, blah. And he's, like, bashing me. Because at that point, what he did not realize is our department chairman called me, and he's like, here's the thing. I'm gonna tell you this in confidence. Read his letter. This is the letter he wrote about you. And I read it, and I remember asking my chairman. I was like, so if he feels this way about me, why did he pick me as his candidate for his lab? You know, because he was even bashing my college and, you know, my education. And I was like, it doesn't make any sense because you saw this before you asked me to come here. And he literally was bland with me. And he's like, if I were you, I would look for another school. You know? And I only realized that years after that, he had a guy who spent about four or five years in his lab, and they had an argument, and that dude struggled to graduate. Like, he had to go back to his country. I think he was from Slovenia or something. And finally, he had to negotiate with the department chairman for the department to grant him, like, a masters or something.
John Dehlin [01:55:02] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [01:55:03] So he does what he was insinuating, like, hoping that I. I'm familiar with the story, but I wasn't at that point.
John Dehlin [01:55:09] He was trying to help you.
Gerald Benzi [01:55:10] He was trying to help me. Yeah, but I. He was referencing a story that I wasn't. I wasn't familiar with. So, I mean, coming back to me being in Provo after all these things have happened, and I'm telling my parents this, like, okay, so this is the situation where I'm finding myself in, right? So my mom, being as religious as she is, you know, every time you encounter a difficult page in your life, every Christian is gonna utter a familiar statement, Right. You need to pray about it, you know, and things like that. So we kind of started talking about that. And I realized in that moment that I have never taken, like, religion is serious, or, like, felt like I belonged to a church or anything. So at this point, my prayers are kind of like freestyles, right? Like, I'm just like. Like, hey, I'm here. So you know me, the other dude. So I'm not. It's not even structured at all. If I can spend Sundays, however, I, like, I can go to the Catholic church if I want to. I cannot go. Like, nothing is actually pushing me to be a religious person. I think it's pushing me to be prayerful. So that feeling of feeling like you do not belong to an institution, that can reinforce those habits that can help you in difficult situations at home. You know, if I. If I was. If I belong to a change, maybe in this instance, I might go talk to my bishop. I might go talk to whoever. I found myself thinking about that. But I never thought of joining the church. So now. Which brings me back to my friend. So my friend, it's Sunday, right? I'm staying with them. So all these, like, Sandy, Utah. Yeah. He was in Provo. So I say, come Sunday. Oh, the day of. The day of change, right? He's like, oh, hey, me and my wife are gonna go to church. You can come with us if you want. We can stay. It's fine.
John Dehlin [01:57:12] Improv.
Gerald Benzi [01:57:12] Yeah. In Provo. So me being a respectful person who is living in someone's house, right? I did not feel comfortable staying at home and then them going to church, you know? So I was like, I'll come with you. So then we are trying to leave, right? And he's like, oh, he has some pants. He's. He has a white shade. And I was like, wait, why? Why? You know? But I. I did not really ask him, why do you want me to dress like that, right? Because I'm going to other churches that were not dressing. We're not, like, formally dressing and whatever. So I did dress up, and then we went. So we go to the church, right? We attend the church. Nothing seems out of place for me. You know, it feels fine. And then I attend the gospel principle class after the sacrament, and the lady then really, like, liked me. And we struck our conversation, and we were talking about it, and I found out that she was also, like, going through a divorce or something, and her husband moved to California, and her kids were kind of being difficult because they want to go with their dad because he has the cool house by the beach, and she's just, like a single mom here. And Things like that. So, you know, struggling people, they have a weird way of relating to each other, right? So then I was like, oh, okay, cool. Then we have the gospel principal class. And I was weirdly participating. I don't know why. And it was good. I loved it. Right? Then we went back home. So after we went back home, that's when the missionaries just, like, started showing up.
John Dehlin [01:58:43] In Milwaukee?
Gerald Benzi [01:58:44] No, in Provo. I didn't go back to Milwaukee at this point.
John Dehlin [01:58:47] Oh, you moved to Utah?
Gerald Benzi [01:58:49] Yeah. At this point, I'm kind of living in two places. I still have my apartment in Milwaukee and my professor already sending me these emails, like, yeah, you know, we are pretty much done.
John Dehlin [01:58:59] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [01:58:59] You know, so I'm not. I'm not motivated to go to Miwa. All right.
John Dehlin [01:59:04] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [01:59:05] So then that following week, that's when I received, like, a letter from my graduate school like, telling me, oh, yeah, he's like. He's saying he cannot work with you anymore. So, you know, you can get your jaunt. But here, yeah, we kind of college. You kind of have to, you know. So I was like, okay, cool. So what does this mean to me? Right? So then I call my office of international students, right? And then they are explaining to me, okay, so for your visa to be valid, you need to be in school. So you have to find a school, get into it, you know, and see if we can transfer your service number. And, you know, those people excel. So now I'm. I have to act fast, right? So I'm the. I'm in this weird mental, like, status way. Everything is happening fast, and I need to react fast. And then at the same time, the conversation I have with my parents made me feel like, spiritually, I'm lagging, right? So I later on, like, talk to my friend about it, and I'm explaining to. I'm explaining it to him like, oh, so this is the situation. I am. I need to find out how I can stay legal here because I. I cannot afford not to be legal, right? So it's like, oh, you know, the other thing you can do is you can, like, apply for a work visa. Like, you can, you know, apply for asylum, and then they can give you a work visa. So it'll give you time to figure out how you're gonna do because you're not gonna get in school, like, right now. That's for sure. Right? So then we did that. You know, we met with a few people who kind of helped me with that. And then we put that in. So now what it means is going Back to Milwaukee is not going to work because I don't have an income in Milwaukee, right? So I cannot stay in my apartment. So I have to move, right? And the only place I can move in this moment, the only person I know is my friend here. So. So that decision was kind of made in that moment. Okay, so we're gonna stay with you once you're figuring out how you're gonna do this, right? So me staying in Pro, I just, like, you know, was trying to do, like, pace jobs and stuff like that, but mentally I was not really there. Like, I felt like I was failing pretty much in everything. I'm not in school, I'm in school dropout. I cannot really work using my college degree from zim, right? I cannot use it. So I pretty much beat down. But then I started to recover, like, once I got my work permit and stuff, right? Like I said, like, talking to more people, trying to get, like, doing more jobs and stuff once I'm figuring my way out. So which brings me to me keeping on talking to my parents now because they need updates, right? Like, so, what are you doing now? What are you gonna do? And Jesus is keeping on coming up, right? Like, okay, you need to keep doing this. You need to keep doing this. And I feel like, okay, this is when I told my mom and I said, mom, like, I haven't been going to church, like, in a while, to be honest with you. So I do feel like these prayers and things that you're sending towards me, they feel weird in this moment, right? And at the same time, the missionaries are popping, popping into the house like, they'll come on Monday. They were like, hey, Gerard. Hi. We just want to see how you're doing. Then they'll leave. Like, they are not really, like, kind of teaching, teaching me at this moment. So then, which brings me to my friend one day, we're just having a conversation. He's like, oh, have you ever thought of actually, like, talking to the missionaries? And I was like, I talked to them. Like, they come to your house like three times a week, right? Like, we talked. And he's like, now, I mean, like, taking lessons. So that's when you kind of occurred to me like, oh, so those were not really lessons. They just, like, kind of befriending me in a way. And I was like, ah, I don't know. Okay, sure, right? So then I talked to them, okay, I want to take lessons. So they show up, they give me the Book of Mormon and other pamphlets and then their DVD to watch, right? And that was not a good idea because what happened is I watched the DVDs, right? And the DVDs kind of echoed what I had watched on YouTube before with the documentaries I watched. So I was going back and forth between the DVDs and YouTube videos, DVDs, YouTube videos, DVDs. And I did not like what I was hearing at all. But is someone who doesn't have a direction at that moment, is someone who doesn't have, like, a concrete habit of actually going to a church where I can, you know, factually dispute these things? Like, this time, it's just like, YouTube. I could. I couldn't, like, put myself in a state where I can make a conclusion about it. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna have lessons with these guys. Then I'm gonna compare what they're saying and what I have heard. And also in this, at this time, I am working, like, moving jobs, landscaping job jobs, and I will meet people who were not momons, but they. They live in Utah, and they also have their vision of momons that they were telling me, right? Like, oh, so you moved from Zimbabwe And. Yeah. Were you. Were you surprised when you came here to live with moms? I was like, what's wrong with the momos? And they are. Dude. Like, they have, like, you know, five wives or something. You've never seen that? I was like, no, I've never seen that. Then I asked my friend, I was like, hey, do you guys practice polygamy? And he's like, no, we don't. It's the other church. What other change? I go back to YouTube again, look up mom on polygamy. Then I see this story about some people breaking out and things like that. And my friend did not get into deeper conversations with me. Like, he had this tendency of pushing the missionaries to me. Like, he wouldn't really answer my questions. You know, he'll be like, oh, yeah, you can ask the missionaries. Oh, you can ask the missionaries. And the missionaries, I hated that time. They did not answer my questions. So I got to a point where we did the lessons pretty much through the end of them, and I'm not getting baptized. So these guys will just come in and check in with me until they got transferred. So one set of missionaries came and went, and another set of brothers came again. Then we started lessons again. I am not budging at this point. I'm just like, this is something that does not feel right. Right? So at that moment, I think I went through the second set of missionaries, still not getting baptized. And my friend is asking me, so when are you gonna get baptized? I'm like, dude, at this point in my life, I feel like I have other things that I need to fix to be I need to fix before I can, you know, make this decision. Because I am kind of like getting hope for this moment, right? I can work. I'm getting a little bit of money, you know, so it feels like I can swing it, right? I can take my time and, you know, draft a proper obligation. And you look into mosque. So I'm kind of hopeful. But at the same time, my parents keeping on asking me about how am I praying about it is also kind of giving me these guilty vibes. Like, okay, I'm not really praying about it, though. I'm not going to any chapel or anything like that. So in. In the back of my head, I still need to belong somewhere. Then the third set of missionaries comes around. In this time, they are sisters. So. And we start lessons again. Pretty much everything they are saying. I've heard it before two times, right? And I'm just like, okay, yeah, I do. I do get it to get educated. And then I started having these kind of like, realistic conversations with them when I was like, okay, so can you tell me how you would feel that you are ready for baptism? Like, how were your journeys? Like. Like, you guys. So they necessarily sharing about personal revelations and stuff like that. And yeah, you read the Book of Mormon, then you pray for an answer, and if you get the answer, if it's true or not, then you can make a decision. And I did read the Book of Mormon, and my prayers were slacking at that point. So I'm keeping on trying to. To believe if I can, you know, get a revelation or if I can get an answer or something like that. And it's not really working out for me. But one thing I would say it stood out to me was the story of Joseph Smith. I had a hard time, like, accepting it. Like, I kept going back and forth with it. And the fact that if pretty much everyone I talked to was a Mormon, the word true, true, true, true, true was like, really repetitive. Like, everyone was like, ah, the book moment is true. This is a true church. If you pray for it, if it's true, then you get this answer that, of course this is a true church. And I'm just like, I've never heard anyone say this word a lot like this. So then I had a conversation with one of my friends at work who was an ex Mormon, and I. And I was like, hey, you you are a mom one, right? And he's like, I used to be. You know, I was like, how do you feel about the church being true? And these reports was just like, laughing. He's like, what, are you taking lessons or something? And I was like, actually, I am. So I'm. I'm kind of trying to understand this. And he was like, I don't believe that. And I was like, okay, can you tell me your story? So his story is like, he was born in the church, raised in the church, got married, and then for some reason, because of his wake, he started drinking. His wife found out, he got divorced, then he got out of the church. So pretty much that was like, his story. And he's like, yeah. I mean, other than that, like, I. There's nothing more I can give to you. Right? Then I go back to my friend, hey, how do you feel about this being the only true church? And then my friend is like, of course it is. Like, if. If you look at, I mean, the things that you read in the Book of Mormon and, like, the testimonies that you're gonna read, you're gonna. You're gonna find out it's true. But still, interpretation is of truth is still vague at this point. So then I was like, okay, can you explain to me, like, how did it feel true to you? Then his story was again, the story of Jesus Smith. Like, yeah, Jesus Smith was asking the same questions when he was 14 or something. And, you know, he got this revelation. And I'm just like, my problem at this point is the story of basing your testimony is the one that I kind of have a problem with. And specifically because us growing up and there are churches I went to, there is this weird statement that nobody can see God. And he's been echoed and echoed and echoed to an extent that I even believed it. So reading a story about someone who says they saw God, you know, it's kind of like madman tells to me, like, okay, so you saw him, actually, him, him.
John Dehlin [02:10:47] Because I think the Bible and maybe even the Book of Mormon say that no man can see God in the world.
Gerald Benzi [02:10:51] Exactly, right? Yeah. And I cannot remember the scripture exactly in the Bible of someone who asked to see God and he did not show himself to him entirely. He partially showed himself to him, and that person became blind. Right? So I remember, like, talking to him about this. I was like, I don't know. It feels weird. Even like, with. To Moses, he appeared as a burning bush. Like, he didn't, like. He didn't, like, really, like, show Himself, like, him. Him. Right. Like, so I'm struggling with that part because I have never had this. So for me to say this is true, it's gonna. I don't know, it's kind of weird to me that I can say I am.
John Dehlin [02:11:32] You're kind of a critical thinker by this point, right?
Gerald Benzi [02:11:35] Yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine with him saying he's all an angel or something like that. But I got now. So then the system missionary almost gave up too, because again, at this point, I'm just like, okay, I. I do love everything about these people. I am about mom people. Right. At this point, people are coming to our house, talking to me, you know, being nice. And I'm going to church every Sunday. I'm not missing a day. I'm going to church every Sunday, even though I'm not even a moment up to a point where one day the bishop asked me to give an opening prayer. And my friend hate to tell the bishop that he's not a member. So that's how. That's how. That's how much I was going to change it before. Yeah, I said yes. I was just like, oh, sure, I'll say.
Makenzie Benzi [02:12:19] And you get invited to do a baby blessing, too.
Gerald Benzi [02:12:22] I did. I actually went due to the. Because there was this other family, I think they are from Nigeria, in the ward that we were going to, and they kind of moved after us. So this guy used to just seeing me in the church, right? I'm showing up. So he assumed I have the priesthood, right? He's like, hey, we're gonna bless our baby this Sunday. Like, do you want to be part of it? And I was like, oh, sure. I don't even know that I'm not supposed to be there. So I just joined the circle and.
John Dehlin [02:12:53] Oh, you did join. I did it to us, too. Yeah, you did. The Catholic.
Gerald Benzi [02:13:00] But this time I did not. I did not know that I was not allowed to be there. This is how I found out. So after I did that, another person in the world, their wife was sick. And they texted me like, hey, Brother Benzi, do you mind joining us? Giving a blessing to my wife? And then that's when I told my friend. I was like, oh, yeah, we are going to give a blessing to this person. And he's like, you cannot do that. I said, what do you mean? They asked me, and he's like, you need the priesthood. And I was like, what? So I told this person, I texted them back and I was like, oh, I'm sorry. Like, I Cannot do that. But I didn't. I didn't say that like, I don't have the priesthood, but I just thought
Makenzie Benzi [02:13:42] you were a sinner.
Gerald Benzi [02:13:43] Yeah. So you were just like, okay, I'll just find someone else, but you're unworthy. Yeah. But funny thing is, the same person who had the wife they wanted to bless, we actually talked the next Sunday, and he was like, just open to me. He's like, yeah, I know. After I saw you with the baby blessing, I thought of asking you to bless my wife. And that's when I was like about that. I actually don't have the priesthood. So that was like the only person I've been open to about that specific instance. So that's how much I was going to change. Right. But still for me to actually say, I read the story of Joseph Smith and this is what I feel like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get baptized. I. I still had doubts at that point. So then the sister missionaries, they got transferred and then another, and I think a third sister came. I don't know what happened in our. But there were still sisters that came around. And by that time, I was friends with MacKenzie. Now I had made Makenzie. And so I started inviting her to my lessons. I was like, hey, do you mind just like coming in and sit with me? And then you can hear what these people are talking about.
Makenzie Benzi [02:14:57] I was like a fresh rm. So I was so excited. She was like, member presence.
Gerald Benzi [02:15:01] Yeah. And I'm not even a member. Right. So I'm like, okay, just. Just come to my lessons. And then, you know, hopefully I wanted someone I can have discussions with that is not like, from our wide or my friend. Right. Because I wanted a third party opinion. So then. And also, it's also around the time that, like, I had asked it out to. And Makenzie's like, whoa, I don't know. We're not gonna go out.
Makenzie Benzi [02:15:34] I friend zoned him.
Gerald Benzi [02:15:35] So she friends. But then in our discussion, you mentioned something like, oh, I don't want you to feel like I'm not dating you because you're not a moment.
Makenzie Benzi [02:15:44] And I also didn't want to feel like we should date while you were going through.
Gerald Benzi [02:15:47] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [02:15:48] The discussions. I didn't want that to be a part of your decision.
Gerald Benzi [02:15:50] Yeah. So at this point, when I. When this happened in my mind, I was like, bingo, this is the person I want to be friends with. Because if he's open enough to me to tell me that, hey, I'm not looking at you as a moment guy, maybe this Is this is a person who can give me, like, an opinion that is not specifically, like, I want you to be in the church. So hence I'm pushing you to understand this story. Right?
John Dehlin [02:16:15] Less biased.
Gerald Benzi [02:16:16] Yeah, less biased. Yeah. And she's not even away at this point. Like, that's what she's doing, right? Like, we kind of, like, later on find out. But what I was thinking and what was happening with her, right? So I'm inviting her to. To my lessons, and she's showing up, and we. We will have discussions afterwards and, like, go for a drive or something like that. Then this happened. I think my. I realized that Makenzie was, like, different from other mom girls I had tried to date in the sense that I've heard people tell me that I play weird music, right?
John Dehlin [02:16:54] And I mean, what kind of music?
Gerald Benzi [02:16:56] Just, like, hip hop music or music where people are cursing. Oh. And I've heard people, like, come into my car and they're like, oh, wow, you play really interesting music. And I'm like, I mean, it's from here, so maybe you guys, you know. But I did not realize that what they actually trying to tell me is your content is unusual, right? And then I befriend Makenzie, and Makenzie is listening to hip hop, like, cleaner visions, right? And I'm just like, I've never had anyone, like, go through with me, like, their 2000s playlist who is, like, a woman girl, like, do that, like, in my car. And she's like, oh, do you like T Pain? Or I'm like, T Pain. He's like, do you like T Pain? I like T Pain. And then, like, she's playing, like, you
Makenzie Benzi [02:17:42] know, that was the person that I.
Gerald Benzi [02:17:44] Yeah, like, she's like. She's like, playing these. These songs.
Guest [02:17:47] Pick a better person now.
Makenzie Benzi [02:17:49] Yeah, can we just rewind that?
Gerald Benzi [02:17:52] Tupac, she's, like, telling me all these, like, hip hop artists that she was listening to and things. And I was like, wait, this person is different? But at the same time, this is the same person who told me she went on a mission. She went to Jerusalem. Like, super spiritual, right? Like, super moment girl. And I was like, I like this girl. I don't care if she doesn't date me, but I want to be a friend, right? So I literally, like, asked you the second time. I asked her out the second time, and she said no again. And I was like, hey, you know what? Like, I'm happy to be your friend. Like, I. It's fine. Like, we don't have to date. So then I'm inviting you to my lessons. And then that's around the time Lemonade came out.
Makenzie Benzi [02:18:31] Yeah.
Gerald Benzi [02:18:31] And then Beyonce's lemonade beyond his lemonade. And then this visual album. Yeah. So this momon girl texted me, is like, hey, do you want to watch Lemonade together? And I was like, what? And I was like, sure, but I have a lesson. That day that you were free, I was like, I have a lesson so we can meet up after my lesson. And she's like, oh, fine, I can come to your lesson. So, like, he came to my lesson. And then afterwards, like, she had brought a blankie and her laptop, and we were sitting outside my apartment and we were watching Lemonade together. And I was just like, wow, she's cool. Like, this is a cool friend. She's different. So then I started initiating conversations, like, about the temple. Because around this time, I was learning more and more stuff. And I remember asking, and I was like, hey, what significance does the temple here, like, have to you? It's like, ah, yeah. She's like, sharing stories about the temple and her testimonies and, you know, spiritual experience she had in the temple. And I was like, oh, wow. And she asked me like, how do you feel about it? And I was like, I don't know. This idea of going to the temple is kind of new to me because for me, temple, I have used that word referring, you know, from that scripture, our bodies are the temple of the Lord, you know, so we should treat them likewise. So I was like, but yeah, it makes sense how you're describing this place and how it can be equated to our bodies. Right. So then we started having a conversation that kind of made more sense than my lessons. From then, like, I would ask questions. I. I like questions I have about the Bible in. About the Bible in the Book of Mormon. One thing I loved about McGain's was she would say, I don't know. When she did not know. She's like, I don't know. I will look into it. I've never heard of that. This was new to me because the in later on, I. I admitted to you why I did not. Why the first two says of missionaries couldn't baptize me is I would ask a question, they wouldn't say they don't know. They will try to answer my question and they will give me any answer that is not enough at all. It's like things that I'm not asking, but then, so. But like, just in interacting with someone who's more money and they're, like, able to Say, I don't know, I'll look into it. I've never heard of that. Kind of like made me like him. All which kind of also made me believe, like, okay, so here's the thing. I don't have to get definite answers right now, you know, like people don't know for real, you know, so maybe I might start understand understanding other things later on. So a few weeks after that, I think I decided, I decided to get baptized. As I'm gonna get baptized and then I'm gonna keep on learning about this. But still, I remember when we were talking and you asked me in my car one day when you're like, is there anything you, you have questions about? And I was like, ah, no. But in my head I was just like, I don't know if I should bring up Joseph Smith's story, guys. I still want to understand, like, why am I not fully accepting that? But I was like, okay, maybe I'll understand it later. Maybe this is not the time that I need to know more about it.
John Dehlin [02:21:55] You know, was the main problem with Joseph Smith just that he saw God and you weren't sure that was possible, or were there other things you knew about Joseph Smith that caused gave you pause?
Gerald Benzi [02:22:04] My main problem was him saying he saw God.
John Dehlin [02:22:07] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [02:22:07] And then how other people talked about him. I had a problem with people saying he's the only true prophet or something. And I was just like, I don't know, that's debatable. Like, you cannot. And you're not really like, providing these evidence that anyone has never heard of before, you know? So I was just like, I, I don't know, like two people can be right at the same time and they're in different parts of the world and you never know about it and you only know of the other one person or four, five, six or more people can, can be right about one thing. But the thing is also, it is time. You are only knowing about him because you are kind of like in the same location as him. So you don't know if another random guy at the another part of the world is having a similar experience. Right?
John Dehlin [02:22:53] You're a critical thinker.
Gerald Benzi [02:22:56] So, yeah, that's. That was like my thing with people saying like, this is the only true thing, you know, I'm like, and Joseph's the prophet? Yeah. I'm like, yeah, you have never been to another part of the world though, so you cannot, you cannot to say that. So those were like things that I kept on hearing and people were saying, this is the one and Only true change. And I'll be like, okay, yeah, that can be fine. I mean, I'm okay with it. But also, at the same time, we need to be. You know what I mean? We need to believe that undoubtedly, like, yeah, we have exhausted each and every religion we know about, and this is the only people who are making sense, you know? And also the other thing is, like, people are not willing to. To talk about the Book of Mormon. This. I mean, to talk about the Bible the same way they talk about the Book of Mormon, partly because me talking to non Mormon people, one thing they mentioned is moments. I mean, a few things that I. I noticed from talking to other people was like, moments. They have their own Bible, right? They. They read their own Bible and they have their own Jesus. And then me talking to missionaries and asking them about the Book of Mormon and them admitting to me saying, like, no, the Book of Mormon is not a substitute for the Bible. But then at the same time, me asking them scriptures from the Bible, like, they could not really answer my questions. They'll be like, oh, well, if you read the Book of Mormon. And I was just like, well, you are doing the exact same thing that other people say. That are not moments, right? Because you cannot answer me a question from the Bible by telling me that. Go into the Book of Mormon. You know what I mean? So kind of like you're saying, this is where there's more weight than where you're coming from. So that was. That was like, one of the few questions. I mean, a few of the questions that I. I had me going into my baptism, but I was like, oh, well, I don't think I have spent enough time on this. I might find out something new later that might explain this, right? I don't want to be that guy who's like, okay, if I had come across this book, I would have. I could have gotten baptized like, three months ago. So then I went in with that mentality, like, I'm gonna grow, right? So this was me texting my mother, hey, mom, this is what I've decided to do. I'm gonna join this church. Do you know about it? And that's when I found out that my mom knew about the church. She's like, yeah, I've heard of them. I know what they're about. And I was like, interesting. Because I. I did not know. And she's like, yeah, they are here. All right. So we started having a conversation with my mom, and she's like, okay, so how do you feel about joining them? And I was like, oh, I feel fine. And then I remember he asking me, and she said, is there anything that they are teaching you that you've never heard of before or that does not align with the way you see Jesus Christ? And I was like, as far as Jesus Christ is concerned, not really. But in the story of how the HX started, I've never heard of it. And she's like, is that enough for you not to join them? Or like, is that enough for you not, you know, to feel like you can be prayerful about it? I was like, no. I mean, not really. She's like, oh, well, there you have your answer. Then, you know, get baptized. It's fine. So then I did get baptized, and then after we got baptized, we moved to a different world, which was bigger and like, more demandful cause. Right.
Missionary Tactics and the Conversion Decision
John Dehlin [02:26:26] So can I ask you a couple questions? Okay. So I really want to kind of pause and analyze this moment in time. I don't know if you know this, but if you talk to many Mormon missionaries, especially in Europe, but also in all over the world, immigrants to whatever country they're serving or international students are often targeted by Mormon missionaries. Like, I've heard this in the uk, for example, these days, a lot of the only baptisms that are happening in the UK are immigrants into the UK or international students into the UK that are wanting to learn English. And so, like meeting some English speaking missionaries, having a community because you're displaced from your home. You're, you're away from your home, you're in a foreign country, you're wanting to learn English, and then you've got these friendly missionaries that are coming to you. That's, that's a real for, for, for. From a mission, a Mormon missionary standpoint, that's a real opportunity because you're, you know, you're vulnerable, you're away from family, you need community. You might feel lost or scared. And you know, there's some practicing English. So I don't. Did you even know that? Kind of like your profile in Provo is a typical profile for what Mormon missionaries might target, you know, throughout the world. Did you know that?
Gerald Benzi [02:27:53] No, I didn't.
John Dehlin [02:27:54] Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's my understanding. Does that make you feel anything when it, when I, when you hear me
Gerald Benzi [02:28:00] say that it does. Because, yeah, because I even remember talking to my kids. I'm like, sometimes like, like you are saying because of their situation, you are, the attention you are getting is not a red flag. You're just like, okay, why are these people so, like, they're so nice yeah, exactly. I'm in a new place, so, yeah, of course. If people are paying attention to me. Yeah, I want to be part of that community that, like, like, especially coming
Makenzie Benzi [02:28:25] from the community immediately from Wisconsin, I mean.
Gerald Benzi [02:28:29] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And also, like, it's kind of relatable to me too, because, like, that's kind of what Zim culture is. Is like. Oh, yeah. Like, we. We are all like, you know, we. We want to know everyone who. Everyone who is in our village.
John Dehlin [02:28:42] So the friendliness of Mormon. Mormon missionary culture reminded you of your home culture?
Gerald Benzi [02:28:49] My home culture is like, yeah. So you see a new guy moving in the next house, you're like, hey, you know, how are you? Like, introducing you to my family. Your family. Then you have to learn their totem and things like that, you know, like, it's just who we are. We're just, like, welcoming people. So in that instance, yeah, I. I do, like, agree with you. Like, it does not seem like a red flag at all. I did not feel like, oh, yeah, I'm a target. They were like, oh, there's that guy. Like, let's go talk to him. Right? I'm just like, okay.
Makenzie Benzi [02:29:16] This is when you had other members coming to your lessons. So you were making friends, you were feeling included?
Gerald Benzi [02:29:23] Yes. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [02:29:25] And they were families, and you didn't have a family.
Gerald Benzi [02:29:27] Yeah, I did not.
Makenzie Benzi [02:29:27] You're in a family ward, which is also different.
Gerald Benzi [02:29:30] They were so nice. Like, and then I. I would get invited to dinners. I got invited to dinners where I had asked my friend to take along, but the invitation was mine. Right. But, hey, this person said, you know, can I bring my friend? You know, yeah, sure, you can bring him. So that happened to me. I. I made more friends that time. Even some of them. I still talk to them. We still follow each other on Instagram and stuff like that. You know, they are. They are genuinely, like, nice people. But, like, they. That idea of, like, oh, yeah, he can be a plus one to our change. I never thought about it that way. I was just like, okay, this. This seemed to be. Which brings me to, like, having that conflict of, okay, why am I not accepting this narrative yet? I cannot, like, pinpoint anything about these people around me where I can be, like, they don't believe in crazy stuff. I'm meeting these people who are going to be you. They are lawyers, some of them, you know, like, they have good professionals, that Mormons are really educated people. So the idea of me, like, being like, okay, maybe this guy fooled these people, and they are Also, like, just in general, nice people. So that was a struggle I had. I was like, why am I not believing this story? Because they are living the good life. They have a nice community, and they want me to be part of that community, you know, And I'm just like, this guy who. They're like, oh, hey, Brother Benzi, you know, do you want to help us with this? Brother Benzi, come here. And I'm like, am I a veteran? You know, so, yeah, that's the. Mentally, I went in with this, okay, I am going to grow and I'm going to understand more things when I am in there. Right. I was expecting to find more and more good things and more. More information that will make me erase that doubt I have before. And all these questions I am asking myself and my mom also validating, like, oh, yeah, I know them. Like, they are good people. I don't know anything weird about them. You know, kind of like, give me that, you know, certification on my decision. Like, okay, cool. So if mom says it's okay, then, you know, I. This is fine. Right? So then, yeah, I went. Got baptized.
John Dehlin [02:31:34] So. So sorry. This is just. It's really important for me just because, you know, my hope is that people from Africa, Zimbabwe, all over the world who are investigating Mormonism can just really see what's happening very clearly. You know, if in some way we can kind of name this so that, like, people investigating Mormonism can actually find it and watch it before they make the commitments, you know, because we believe in informed consent. And so the people should know what they're joining fully before they join. But as I'm just kind of really trying to, like, piece this apart, so your. Your parents probably are wanting you to get committed to a church because they think it'll be good for you. You. Things didn't work out in Wisconsin, so you're, like, wanting to stay here, but you're feeling like that might be threatened in some ways, but you find this great community and you start to feel loved and accepted and everyone's nice to you. And so, like, that's all on the side of, like, man, maybe I should join.
Gerald Benzi [02:32:38] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:32:38] And on the other side is your inner voice that's saying, I'm not so sure about this. That's on the other side.
Gerald Benzi [02:32:45] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:32:46] And then I imagine at some point you were taught by missionaries, like, well, faith. Faith is acting when you don't really believe.
Gerald Benzi [02:32:53] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:32:53] And so if you plant the seed of faith, you may not know it now or believe it now, but if you start acting as Though you believe and know it, that'll come later.
Gerald Benzi [02:33:03] Come later.
John Dehlin [02:33:04] Is that part of what you have?
Gerald Benzi [02:33:06] Exactly. You just, like, reminded me of something that I also learned during that time that I was being taught about faith. Right. I got a paid on the back as an investigator at that point. And he was like, yeah, you know, you can have doubts or whatever, but, like, like you said, like, that's what faith is. Like, you believe in something. Like, oh, it will happen even though you don't have enough evidence. Like, definitely it's gonna happen. So you just, like, invest yourself into it. And I was told I am a golden investigator. And honestly speaking, anyone who has, like, been given a new form of award, it doesn't make you want to immediately, like, research more. It validates the work you have done up to that point. So you're just like, man, if I am this golden investigator, I have asked the right questions. I have done, like, the, you know, the right steps, and I have asked really valid questions, which is like, at that point, you're like, okay, so if I've reached to be a golden investigator, why am I not making a decision? I should have a decision by now. So that also, like, makes you biased. Like, you're like, okay, let me just join them because pretty much I'm really accomplished. My CV is really impressive. So I have asked everything I need to. And these people are telling me, like, yo, this is like, I don't know, Brother Benzi, what anything else you can do at this point? Like, you are. You have done everything. And I was like, okay, cool. So, which brings me to me calling my mom.
John Dehlin [02:34:35] Sorry, one more thing. I'm sorry. I re. I know. I know everyone's dying to hear your story. I just want to kind of like, this is so important to me. Forgive me, audience. I hope you are okay with this. So a couple things I'm hearing are. Well, one is this idea of love bombing. When you. When you listen to Luna Corbden's episode on recovering agency and undue influence, this idea of love bombing is that high demand religions when you are either investigating the religion or you're considering leaving it. And they. They see an important moment where it's really high stakes in terms of your commitment to the church. This idea of love bombing, of, like, being inundated with love and support and friendship and kindness, probably a level of treatment. You maybe have never. I mean, I'm sure people have been kind to you in the church, but like, oftentimes the level of love and commitment shown to an investigator or someone who's questioning the church can be extremely high. And it's a form of influence that I don't think Mormons do intentionally. They just love people and want to share their joy. But what it amounts to is love bombing. It's this intense show of kindness and support and community that ends up being very persuasive when it's probably not going to be what you experience in a sustained way.
Gerald Benzi [02:36:00] That's true.
John Dehlin [02:36:01] And is that fair? I don't want to plant that in your mind.
Makenzie Benzi [02:36:04] We literally listened to that podcast and I asked him to rate it, and that was, like, one of his highest rated.
Gerald Benzi [02:36:09] Yeah, that's very true. Love bombed exactly in. The good thing about that, I mean, I. One thing I loved about the episode is you listening to it. I literally started, like, to gain. I don't know if it makes sense. Have you ever had your memory explained? And you are just like, oh, my goodness, that's what we call it. Yeah. It's just like, this is exactly what happened. And I. I had no idea. I'm just like, okay. So. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:36:38] And that's why I'm. That's why I'm pausing to really tease this apart. A couple other things I just want to say is that. Well, one thing that's really interesting for me is that the way you converted to Mormonism is actually the same way I converted to Mormonism on my mission. Because all growing up. So I'm just connecting with you and Carol. I don't know if you'll feel this way too. All growing up, I'm like, okay, I love the church, but lots of other churches think they're true, and my Baptist friends think their church is true. And what about the people in China? And. And so in my mind, the whole time, it's like, well, I don't know if it's true. So I'm just totally vibing with you. Is it true? How do I know? And then I'm praying about the Book of Mormon and I'm not getting the answers, and I'm like, you know, I don't want to lie and say I know it's true and I don't know it's true. I just. It's good. But is it true? So, like, I am identical to you. And it wasn't until I'm on my mission, not just in the mtc, but I'm, like, going to my very first investigators on my mission in Guatemala, where I have to now bear my testimony, and I'm like, what do I. Am I going to say? I Think it's true? It might be true. I think it's good. I'm like, well, that's weak sauce. So in my mind, I'm like, what do I do? How do I bear my testimony as a missionary to these people? I don't want to lie, but I don't know it's true. And I never got the witness. And then the teaching comes into my mind. It's like, well, a testimony is gained by burying it. And so at that moment, as a missionary, I'm like, well, what I'll do. It feels good. So I'm just gonna say I know it's true. And then maybe afterwards the witness will come. And that's so, like, it's almost identical. What happened to me is what happened to you.
Guest [02:38:21] Yeah, I want to read. I just. I love when I can search something and I can find it. It feels me with happy endorphins. There's a quote that goes along with that that I think a lot of us are raised in from Holland that says the size of your faith or the degree of your knowledge is not the issue. It is the integrity you demonstrate towards the faith that you do have and the truth you already know. So it's that idea of like, line upon line, you already know precept, you know, portions of the truth. You've seen the fruits, you've tasted the fruits. Are they good? Now go forward in faith, and then you'll be an integral person in this church, that you'll be fortified the more and more you, you know, go drink from this well of life, of this, you know, this beautiful tree. All of those metaphors, all those things like, there's trees, there's. Well, you know, and I don't think
John Dehlin [02:39:03] Hollander Mormons, I think Mormons are, you know, Mormons are sincere, good, kind people and, and. And friendly people. So I don't think it's like a conscious deception on the part of Mormons. I think they're, you know, they love you, they want to share their goodness. And so I don't think they're intentionally love bombing you. And I don't even think Holland or other Mormons are trying to get you to deceive yourself when they teach you to have faith. I just think that's a core Mormon doctrine. You have faith and you plant the seeds of faith and you act like it's true, and then somehow you know it's true. So I think it's all done with good intentions. But. But literally that moment that we're pausing, slowing down to look at that moment is, in a sense, self betrayal, because you don't know. You don't know.
Gerald Benzi [02:39:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:39:50] And you. And you know, you don't know. But then you're told to act as if you know, and then you'll know. And then you hear that quote that you just read, Kara and Holland's actually saying you knew all along. So it slips you into that position of saying, you know when you never knew and you don't know. But all of a sudden, because of that little teaching, it slips you into then saying that I know and I knew all along. And that's. That's. That's kind of manipulation. It's kind of coercion because it gets you to the other side where then you're bearing testimony to everybody else as if you know when you really don't.
Guest [02:40:32] Yeah, there's like an in group, out group dynamic where you're like, oh, let me just. Let me just say that I know because you don't want to be on the out group anymore. You just want to be one of the people who know.
Makenzie Benzi [02:40:39] Because if you were to be true to yourself, then that's you alone. Then you're getting rid of who you're living with, the community, any. Any friends that you've made. Where do you go? You can't even. Where would you even go? I mean, you're living in Provo, Utah, so.
Gerald Benzi [02:40:54] No.
John Dehlin [02:40:55] And that's why I say you were a critical thinker all along. You were smart. You were turned on inside. And a lot of ex Mormons ask, how can Richard Bushman and Terrell Givens and Fiona Givens, they're so smart. How can they still believe? Religious conversion is emotional and social. It is not intellectual. And that's how it happens. And that's how people convert to the church. That's how even smart people can convert to the church. And that's how so many smart people can remain in the church. They remain for emotional and social reasons. And the intellectual stuff doesn't even matter. It's. It's like Jonathan Haidt in the Righteous Mind. The elephant is the emotion. The writer is your intellectual. And if the elephant and the writer are ever in conflict, who wins? It's not the human riding the elephant. It's always the elephant. The emotion, the social connection. It's going to win almost every time.
Makenzie Benzi [02:41:53] And the church is still aware of that because Hinckley, what did he say? That every member needs a new convert. They need a friend like they need a job. So they need to feel included. They need to feel like they're participating and they need to feel socially included, otherwise they know that you won't stay.
Gerald Benzi [02:42:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:42:10] So people investigating Mormonism, maybe we can make this into a tick tock or a clip or, or a YouTube short. You need to understand what's happening to you. You are, you are being love bombed by a bunch of sincere, well intended, believing Mormons that are making you feel super good. You are probably in a vulnerable situation where you need a community and a belief system in a church that because you fear about what happens to you if you won't. And then you're being taught some doctrine that really does teach you to ignore your inner impulses and to eventually consent to a set of beliefs as if you know them when you really don't. And that's undue influence. And the irony is it can often still be good for people. And I am going to even say it's probably. I, I imagine that as we get farther along in your story, you're going to tell us, Gerald, right? You're going to tell us that this was actually probably a good thing for you. Even though undue influence was used to coerce you into saying you believe something that you didn't believe. You're probably going to tell us that it was probably good for you until it wasn't. Is that right?
Gerald Benzi [02:43:22] Yeah, that's the next part.
John Dehlin [02:43:25] Is that true? Is that true?
Gerald Benzi [02:43:26] Yeah, that's the next part. Like, yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [02:43:28] So.
Gerald Benzi [02:43:28] Yeah. So I don't know if I can continue.
John Dehlin [02:43:30] Like one last thing.
Makenzie Benzi [02:43:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:43:32] What were you. Like, we shouldn't tell this, but I'm gonna tell, I'm gonna, We're gonna stop here. What were you not told? Like, like, we're gonna go through and talk later. Like in part two, we're gonna talk about your, we're gonna talk about McKinsey, your story, and we're gonna talk about what you learned and then maybe how your faith changed over time. But I just want to take the moment to say you got baptized. You were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. What were the things you were not taught in preparation for your baptism that you absolutely feel like it was dishonest or deceptive or harmful, that you weren't taught them. In other words, if you had been taught these things, maybe you would have made a different decision or maybe not. Are there any things that you wish you had been taught?
History Withheld Before Baptism and the Priesthood Ban
Gerald Benzi [02:44:27] Yeah, the history of the church that never come up with missionaries. Like what members, what history? Like, why does the church look the way it does today? Like how the church treated other non white people before. Specifically about the things like, because I feel like the priesthood in my story was like able to big jump in my story and only like to find out that if you go down the history of the church, if I were, if, if I knew that before, if that was gonna confirm my idea of doubting, the idea of having one true prophet who, one true prophet in the church who is receiving revelations for pretty much everybody on earth. But then going down the history, you see like there was no revelation there because the church kind of acted the same way, politicians way, and how the environment around it was, There was no revelation there. Even though in the same time I could see that there were other churches who were granting priesthood to people of color at that time.
John Dehlin [02:45:36] Right, okay, wait, let's back up because I, I, I will. For people who don't know anything about Mormonism, I don't think they understand what you just explained. What, what now have you learned was the church's practice regarding the priesthood and people of color prior to 1978? Tell us what you've since learned for those who aren't Mormon and don't know. Yeah, prior to 1978.
Gerald Benzi [02:45:59] Yeah, so I learned that the priesthood wasn't granted to people of color. Right. Prior to, yeah, prior to 1978. Right.
John Dehlin [02:46:09] So just to be clear, for 150 plus years, people of color, black people, Africans were denied the Mormon priesthood up until 1978. And you weren't taught this as a person of color joining the Mormon Church in What year?
Gerald Benzi [02:46:26] In 2016.
John Dehlin [02:46:28] So this is five years ago? Yeah, 2016. You are baptized to the Mormon Church in Provo, having never been taught or learned that black people had been excluded from the Mormon priesthood for almost two centuries.
Gerald Benzi [02:46:45] Yes, correct. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:46:46] Okay, now keep going.
Gerald Benzi [02:46:48] Yeah, so yeah, so learning that and also just it literally explains why I failed strongly. Like, okay, if I had known that this same person, I keep on hearing people saying, he's true, he's true, he's true, he's true. This is, this is the behavior his organization, like, you know, this is how they behaved back then, you know, until 1978. I'm pretty sure that I probably would have made it a different decision. And moreover too I did not really understand why I was not like polygamy was just dismissed Whenever, when I bring me, yeah, it was dismissed. I brought it up in my, in my lesson. I was like, so I talk to people and they say, you know, moments if they practice polygamy. And it was just like that's not us. Like, we do not do that. So that also, like, the documentary I watched on YouTube also, it kind of like, confirmed that it was like, oh, yeah. Like, they is a section of the moments that broke out. It made it seem like those people who broke out are the only people who practice it. Like, it never happened. Like, within our organization. It happened with those guys who left us. So I kind of regret not, like, looking into it more because I was like, okay, cool. So realizing later on that actually, no, that's not how it happened. I kind of feel bad for myself that I just, like, believed it when he was like, that's not us. Like, no, we don't do that. Like, I mean, you see your friend, one wife, right? And you've interviewed with our community always, like, one man, one wife. We don't do that. But going back in history and being
John Dehlin [02:48:33] like, okay, Joseph Smith did it. Brigham Young did it. All the prophets up to mid-1900s did it. It's still in the Doctrine and Covenants. DNC132, our current Prophet and First Counselor in the First Presidency are both celestial polygamists. But as far as you were taught up until baptism, polygamy had nothing to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Am I correct?
Gerald Benzi [02:49:00] Yeah. He was like, no, we don't do that. And I even felt uncomfortable in that instance because me, I had a previous relationship that I have kids, right? And I remember kind of asking my. My elder about it, and he literally invalidated my. My previous relationship because it was not recognized, you know, by Heavenly Father is not. We were not sealed in the temple. You know, we were not legally married or anything. So that was just like, no, you don't have to bring that up. Like, it's fine. Like, it's not something that can prevent you from being baptized, right? Which, like, looking back right now, I'm just like, I don't. I don't feel good for. About myself that I accepted that explanation as a person that. Oh, yeah, sure. Like, before you made us. Before you accepted our. Our practice, that. That does not matter. It's fine. We. You can basically just click reset and you are fine as long as you're gonna have a marriage in the temple and that you're gonna get sealed. That's what matters. That's the one treasure that you need to make sure you're gonna maintain that. So I feel bad for myself that I accepted that. I was just like, okay, all right, fine. Even though part of me was like, you cannot do that. Like, you Cannot just be like, yeah, okay, fine, that was a mistake. And because there are people who exist, you know, it's part of my story, it's part of my life, it's part of my past experience. And you also kind of act affect me like in today. So the fact that that was kind of like encouraged and just invalidated, I now I feel bad about it, you know, that was never discussed. So yeah, those are probably like the three things that I feel like I was kind of not really encouraged to talk more about or like given information because they knew that I did not know about the history of the church, of course, because for one thing, they exactly knew that I had just found out about the change the moment I came to Provo, which was that February of 2016. Not I did not have any history knowing about the change. So yeah, it does feel like, oh yeah, you're selectively like, you know, omitting certain things that you really know that this person does not know about this.
John Dehlin [02:51:25] Yeah. You know, and what's for me and Carrie, you can join in here. What's, what's complicated for me about this is I actually really, really do believe that many people who join the Mormon Church, it can upgrade their lives in many ways, especially socioeconomically, depending on your background and your social needs or situation at the time. And I think Mormons aren't trying to intentionally deceive or fool people. We were all taught milk before meat. Once you have the Holy Ghost, it can help you understand things where if you don't have the Holy Ghost, you won't be able to understand it. So like, it's all from a Mormon, orthodox Mormon standpoint. It's all well intentioned. It might even likely, probably, probably will be for your good in many ways. It's not intentionally deceptive or coercive.
Gerald Benzi [02:52:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:52:11] And if you read Luna Corbin's Rules on undue Influence, in addition to love bombing, there's the withholding of information. That's a classic Scientology does it. Joe's witnesses do it. It's a classic technique of culture high demand religions to withhold information and, and to have levels of information where once you get in and are brought in and are kind of sucked in, it's not until after you start committing and, and making important decisions and pointing your life in that direction and advancing in the levels that you then get taught many of the things that were withheld from you before. And I'll just say that even in my most orthodox Mormon state, because the blacks in the priesthood thing always bothered me, I Don't know. Kara, I'd like to hear your position on this. And you. And to McKinsey. I don't think I would have ever. Let's just say I had a friend who was black who I was growing up with, and he was interested in the church, and I would not have let that friend get baptized without saying, hey, there's this part of our history that I don't understand that you should know. And I would have explained the priesthood ban, and I would have made sure that my friend knew that before he got baptized, because ethically and morally, I would have felt like that would have been dishonest.
Guest [02:53:33] You know how I would have rationalized it? It's okay, because it's true. And that I wouldn't want the mistakes of men of past prophets to spoil somebody's eternal salvation. So.
John Dehlin [02:53:43] So you would not have disclosed.
Guest [02:53:44] I don't think I would have. I think I would have.
John Dehlin [02:53:46] Yeah, I would have. But, but, but, but. I mean, those friends of yours, and I guess, Makenzie, you're part of that.
Makenzie Benzi [02:53:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:53:52] I mean, honestly. And I'm not trying to, like, call you out.
Makenzie Benzi [02:53:54] No, I mean, my. My issue with that is I had a black mother that rationalized it. So for me, it was. I'd already been grown up and indoctrinated with the idea that it wasn't worth disowning the rest of the religion.
John Dehlin [02:54:08] Were you about to, say, groomed? No. Raised, Maybe. Okay.
Makenzie Benzi [02:54:13] But I mean, yeah, I'm like, if it's good enough for my mother who is black, and it's good enough for his friend, like, I didn't feel like I needed to be like, well, do you want to talk about this further? I mean, I feel like that was kind of my. My opening to it. Like, do you have any questions? Do you have any concerns? Because I could understand someone having that, but for me, it's like that had already been answered. And although we don't know it's good enough for my mom, it's good enough for your friend, so why should I assume that it wouldn't be good enough for you?
Gerald Benzi [02:54:41] Yeah, but. But to you, to your credit, I found out more about it because of the. What did you take me to in Salt Lake City?
John Dehlin [02:54:50] Institute or seminary?
Makenzie Benzi [02:54:53] They had the celebration
Gerald Benzi [02:54:56] or something. I don't know what. What. What it was called.
Makenzie Benzi [02:54:58] Oh, yeah. They had a panel of people that went over the history of.
Gerald Benzi [02:55:03] Yeah, black people. That's usually how I found out more and more information.
John Dehlin [02:55:08] After you'd been baptized, which is also
Makenzie Benzi [02:55:10] how I found out More about it too.
Gerald Benzi [02:55:12] I mean, yeah. So, yeah, she took me to that. And after that, I remember asking. I was like, I. This is. I don't know. This feels weird. Like in. I couldn't explain it, but at the same time, just like this new information that you just found, someone actually sharing their testimony, like, oh, yeah, like this couldn't happen. And, you know, it made us feel some kind of way. And I was like, yeah, I could have felt some kind of way if I knew about these. But in that moment, it didn't exactly translate to, like, how you're portraying right now. I'm just like, yeah, I did not. I did not feel deceived. I was just like, okay, because I came in within the mentality, okay, I'm gonna grow inside the church. So, yeah, here's new information. But it wasn't the kind of new information I was expecting. I was expecting new information to answer my question, make me grow. But otherwise that was like, okay, you did not know this. So it's not answering any question. It's a new topic that I now addressing, and I have to decide how do I feel about that whilst I'm already in the organization? So I was just like, I don't know how I feel about this. But she had. I think, in that moment, my kids reacted more, like, negatively to it than I did. I think I was in some, maybe shock or something.
John Dehlin [02:56:32] Because what were you taught?
Gerald Benzi [02:56:33] Yeah, because. Yeah, exactly. And I didn't even question that. I grew up seeing black priests from other churches. I didn't even think about it in that moment. Only later when I was like, oh, yeah, so your revelation came later after other people already are doing it. Is it a revelation, though? Because you can review something that is already happening in people's eyes. Right. So I don't know how to feel about that.
John Dehlin [02:57:00] Why did it come so late? Why did the Mormon priesthood ban lifting in 78 come 10, 20, 30 years after other churches were giving blacks the priesthood? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I just. So, just to ask you very bluntly now, do you feel like it was dishonest or unfair to you to convert you into Mormonism without fully explaining to you the church's history with racism and. And the priesthood ban and without fully teaching you about Joseph Smith's polygamy, Brigham Young's polygamy, and the church's history on polygamy? Do you feel like that was dishonest and unfair?
Gerald Benzi [02:57:44] I do. Specifically because I. I was with warding, being baptized for a long time, you know, And I, I would feel, I don't know if, if that's the reason why they did not volunteer more information that would impact my decision that, okay, we're not going to share more negative things because already he doesn't know this and it's taking him a while to make the decision. Right. So I feel like, yeah, that will, that feels intentional to me that you, you knew I was kind of struggling with making this decision and you decided to share more positive things and omit the negative things. It's kind of, you're pushing me to the yes decision because I'm like, oh, if I share this is going to create more doubt. Right. And you do know that I do not know that because I didn't bring it up and you know how much I know about it. So it does feel like it was unfair.
John Dehlin [02:58:36] You know, then you add to the fact that you're, you're in a vulnerable situation as a, as an immigrant and, and there's all this love bombing go around going around. It's, it's a level of influence that, that I think should give Mormon church leaders pause and they should reconsider that those techniques as coercive and as it is having undue influence and as not providing even base levels of informed consent that people should have before they commit their lives, 10% of their income for life, get married and basically commit to the Mormon way of life without all the information. It's totally inexcusable that in 2015, 2016, 2021, that any Mormon investigator on the planet would go through what you went through. And it's happening all over the world every single day with 50, 60,000 missionaries. They're all doing to their investigators. Most, most of them, many of them, if not almost all of them, they're doing now still to investigators. What was done to you. Yeah, it's no good.
Gerald Benzi [02:59:55] It's not.
John Dehlin [02:59:55] I mean it's problematic and it, and people might benefit. That's what's complicated. So anyway, I, I'm just going to apologize because you were ready to go on with your story. We're about at the three hour mark and I think this is a really natural time for us to kind of make this a part one. We also need to use the restroom probably and run to the, and maybe grab a bite to eat. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna call it and say hold on, because Gerald was about to share with us some really cool. What happens next. Don't forget that Gerald. And we haven't even heard from McKenzie yet. And we haven't heard about their marriage and we haven't heard about what's happened in their faith journey since then and what landed them on Mormon Stories podcast. So that's all gonna be coming in part two. So thank you for joining us. Part one. Gerald, thank you for sharing us with us your amazing story about how someone from Zimbabwe ends up Mormon.
Gerald Benzi [03:00:51] Thank you for having me.
John Dehlin [03:00:53] I hope you listeners have enjoyed it. And Kara, thanks for joining us. You always add really cool stuff.
Guest [03:00:59] Thanks. Really cool stuff.
John Dehlin [03:01:03] Valuable, insightful, wise stuff.
Guest [03:01:07] Yeah, I can Google stuff over here and it makes me sound a lot smarter.
John Dehlin [03:01:10] You're more than Google, Kara.
Guest [03:01:11] I knew the population of Zimbabwe's LDS population up here before I was actually off the top. Pretty good. I'm pretty good, actually. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:01:19] Anyway, but don't go away. This will end part one of this interview and just come right back for part two where you will now hear McKinsey story and Gerald McKenzie's story and then what's happened in the four or five years since they've been together. So that's all coming in part two. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories podcast. And we'll see you guys all again in just, just a flip of the dial. Come right back. Thanks, everybody.
Introducing Makenzie and Her Mormon Upbringing
Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1527
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 24, 2021, and we are in part two of what for me is a very interesting and important and powerful and informative episode on Mormon Stories podcast. So if you haven't joined us for part one, we just spent a good. Was it three hours? Yes, with Gerald and Makenzie Benzi. But mostly we were focusing on Gerald Benzi because I've been putting out a call in recent months and years to interview Mormons from Africa because the Mormon Church, as we know, is really investing in Africa as a way to have a chance at future growth. Everywhere else in the United in the world, basically including in Utah, the church is shrinking. If it weren't for birth rate, the Mormon Church would literally be in decline. It's only the birth rate that keeps the Mormon Church at like a 0.5% growth rate right now. But because there's been so many defections and hemorrhaging of people leaving the church and the super low activity rates of Mormon converts throughout the world, the church is in free fall most everywhere. But it's where it's growing is in Africa. So I've always wanted to just hear from African converts to the Mormon Church about what would make them join the church. And that's what we did for part one. If you haven't checked it out, go check out Gerald's interview because he talks about growing up in Zimbabwe, growing up as a kind of a Christian, kind of as a native, traditionalist, spiritual person, but raised in private schools, religious private schools, and ultimately what led him to the United States, which then led him eventually from Milwaukee to Provo to then go through like four different sets of missionaries, Mormon missionaries, and eventually convert to the Mormon Church. So that's where we left off in part one was Gerald not only sharing with us what led to his decision to get baptized and all the pressures and influences and dynamics and factors that led to that. We also talked about ways that Gerald felt like he wasn't given the full and honest story in history about the Mormon Church and how he feels in some ways like he was deceived or misled into that decision, while also acknowledging that was probably good for him in many ways. And so it's always a complex thing to reconcile. But that's where we left off with. We had not even started McKenzie store yet. And McKenzie, your story is important because one, you're human, but also you're a woman. And also because there's a there's a biracial element to your story.
Makenzie Benzi [00:02:30] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:02:30] And probably a feminist and intellectual awakening and all sorts of good things. So as I was reading through McKinsey, your outline, I realized this deserves its own story separate from the whole, you know, African Mormon convert thing. Right.
Makenzie Benzi [00:02:47] Thank you. I'll take it. I won't argue with you. As I'm sitting here with a microphone in my face, it would be disingenuous to pretend like I didn't agree.
Guest 2 [00:02:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:02:55] So we'll be. We'll be hearing McKinsey story probably for a part two, and then we'll get into sort of like what it's like maybe for either part 2B or for part 3. We'll. We'll conclude with being in an interracial Mormon marriage. If there's dynamics there worth exploring, I definitely want to cover that. And then, of course, what your faith journey has been over the past, what, four or five years since you've been married, because you've had your own faith journey since getting married. All true.
Makenzie Benzi [00:03:26] All true.
John Dehlin [00:03:27] All right. All right. And of course, we're joined by the one, the only. She just sat up in her seat because she knew I was going to cut to her. The Kara Burrell. Hey, Kara.
Guest 2 [00:03:37] Like a doc. The Pavlovian responses. I'm joined by. And I go, he's about to say my name. Hi, John.
Makenzie Benzi [00:03:44] Hey, guys. Hi.
Gerald Benzi [00:03:45] Hi.
John Dehlin [00:03:45] How are you enjoying the interview so far?
Guest 2 [00:03:47] Loving it.
John Dehlin [00:03:48] What else could you say, though, really?
Guest 2 [00:03:50] Oh, yeah, just. It's gonna be good. I can't wait to dive into MacKenzie's story now, too, so. And if at any point John does need to run, I'm gonna jump in his seat.
John Dehlin [00:03:59] You're gonna take over.
Guest 2 [00:04:00] I'm feeling. I'm feeling more like that I could do it now. I was a little bit hesitant.
John Dehlin [00:04:04] I do have to do one public service announcement. For those of you who haven't heard, Adele has a new album out, and there's a really good song on there. Is it called Go Easy on Me, Baby? What's it called?
Guest 2 [00:04:15] Something like that. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:16] And we had a debate. And so we need your help, audience, because so many people. My oldest child, Adrian, sent it to me this morning saying it's a beautiful song. It reminds me of you and mom, and you guys should check it out. A ton of Mormons have sent it to me. I'm totally wasting time. But it's fun, so I'm doing it anyway.
Makenzie Benzi [00:04:34] Oh, no. We're gonna extend this. So Kara has to get an interview chair. It's now my goal just on the record.
Guest 2 [00:04:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:40] A ton of Mormons have sent me that song saying it's a really good faith crisis song because it talks about making decisions when you're young and then becoming more mature and realizing that you have to undo some of the decisions you make and. And then realizing there's oftentimes collateral damage. So the reason why I'm saying all of this is because I told Kara that the song is about is from Adele to her ex husband, single baby,
Guest 2 [00:05:06] that it's to her son about the decision she made when she married his dad. And we were having quite the debate.
John Dehlin [00:05:14] And so, number one, go listen to that song. Number two, see if you like it. Number three, see if you can relate to it from a Mormon faith crisis standpoint or from any other faith crisis standpoint. And then number four, go to the
Guest 2 [00:05:25] comments and say Kara was right and
John Dehlin [00:05:28] say John was right. It is to the ex husband who would write a song to their children who's two.
Guest 2 [00:05:34] If you google something and it gives you John's an that's just words on a paper. Go with what your heart tells you, not what the actual intention of Adele song is.
John Dehlin [00:05:42] And what does this have to do with Makenzie and Gerald? Cara, why did you even bring this up?
Guest 2 [00:05:46] Oh, well, because we were just at lunch and we were talking about conditioning that goes into our decisions whether or not to have kids.
John Dehlin [00:05:51] I'm just gaslighting.
Guest 2 [00:05:52] It just so happens that Adele was singing this song on the radio, and I just started mouthing along the words, and I was like, yeah, I wish my kids would go easy on me because I, you know, I had them before I had the chance to have the world feel the world around me and stuff. And then John called me out on my BS and then we argued for the last 20 minutes about that.
John Dehlin [00:06:08] And Adele, you owe us at least $1,000 for promoting the song and all the Spotify listens that you're gonna get because we gave you a shout out. Will you put this in the show notes, Kara?
Guest 2 [00:06:19] Show notes. Kara is correct. No further show notes.
John Dehlin [00:06:23] All right.
Makenzie Benzi [00:06:24] I say that every time.
John Dehlin [00:06:26] All right, I'm sorry for that diversion.
Makenzie Benzi [00:06:28] No, that was beautiful. Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:06:30] Makenzie, where does your Mormon story begin?
Makenzie Benzi [00:06:33] It begins with a doe.
Guest 2 [00:06:35] Apparently, that song came out two weeks ago.
Makenzie Benzi [00:06:39] Exactly. Yeah. My Mormon story basically begins at birth. I was born into. Born into the covenant, as they like to say. Both my parents are and were active LDS members. They both were raised in Utah. My mom is a biracial woman. She is half black and Half white. And that was a big. That'll be a big part of my. Of my story later on. And it's good to know. And, yeah, I'm the oldest of five kids, so I've been a second mom my entire life. And I mean, really, when I was probably 8 or 10, my mom asked, how many kids do you want when you grow up? You know, as an 8 or 10 year old? And I said, zero. I have four already. So, yeah, that's very much the. The Mormon story. I felt like I was a Mormon mom from very young in my life. I was always very responsible. I was the classic firstborn. I was bossy and independent and even my mom was 19. No, she was 19 when she got married and 21 when she had me. And so I always joke that I was. I was more mature than my mom. Like, I raised her almost because she just. She was very fun and very crazy and very young. And I was a very mature child that liked to listen to adult conversations and. And share my opinion.
Guest 2 [00:08:11] So did you say what city and where you were born, where you grew up?
Makenzie Benzi [00:08:16] I was technically born in Provo. That I don't like to own up to because I am from California. My parents moved to California when I was 18 months.
John Dehlin [00:08:26] So you claim California.
Makenzie Benzi [00:08:28] I do. I like to be the California girl. And okay, yes, but technically my roots are. Are in Provo, Utah. So. Yeah. And my. My mom was. Made my dad promise that they would move back to Utah after only five years because they moved for his job. And they are still there to this day and will stay in California. And that is great because I will always have someone to visit when I go home.
John Dehlin [00:08:55] Mormon shame is already oozing out of me.
Makenzie Benzi [00:08:59] It's tangible. We can feel it. Yeah. So I. I grew up with a complex of wanting to be the best, the smartest. I was like the teacher's pet. I was put into the gifted and talented education. So my parents thought I was so smart. And I still to this day feel like I'm not as smart as my parents thought I was. Like, I have. I just felt like they had so many expectations.
John Dehlin [00:09:24] Imposter syndrome.
Makenzie Benzi [00:09:25] Exactly. Yeah. And. But it's also where I thrived because I do like speaking. I like reading, I like. I like being the best. And so that transferred into the church where I knew all the answers to all the questions. And I was always the Beehive president or the Laurel president. I was always invited to go speak in public, public settings or in leadership positions, you know, for youth conference or Things like that. So that very much became my identity and where I felt seen and where I felt that I had a place. And. Yeah, that. That mentality took me pretty much until my teenage years. Well, I guess around 9 or 10, I discovered it was like this online, like, fan fiction. I. I'm a big nerd and I. One of my big nerdy things was Harry Potter, and I found this, like, fan fiction that was written by other teenagers and it was very flirty.
John Dehlin [00:10:40] Tell listeners what fan fiction is for the.
Makenzie Benzi [00:10:42] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:10:42] For the ones who don't.
Makenzie Benzi [00:10:43] So, yeah, it's amateur people on the Internet creating these. These imaginary stories that have to do with something that everyone's familiar with. So, like, Harry Potter, Right. That's very well known. And so there's people that spin off their own stories based on that.
John Dehlin [00:11:02] So, like, in the Harry Potter universe, writing as if you're J.K. rowling, new Harry Potter fiction.
Makenzie Benzi [00:11:07] Right. Or, like, putting yourself into the story. And so now you're, like, in the. In the universe and interacting with these characters. And it's definitely a place where people can create fantasy.
Gerald Benzi [00:11:23] Right.
Makenzie Benzi [00:11:24] And there was a very, like, flirty, almost like sexual fantasies that I read and was very intrigued by. And that was like, my first sense of, like, guilt or shame. And again, these were written by, like, very young teenagers, so it wasn't anything explicit, but it was like, oh, you. This character goes and, like, is flirting with Harry or Draco or, like, things like that. And you're like, oh, it's this mystery, this fantasy. And I felt so guilty for reading this. I mean, at like, 9 or 10 years old. And it's just someone who, like, I loved Harry Potter and I wanted to read more and read these people's experiences. And it was my first, like, intense feeling of shame because I knew, oh, like, they're kissing or they're flirting, and that's not okay. And it's something so innocent. But it got to the point where this was. It was sometime after 9, 11, and my parents went on their first big trip to, like, Hawaii or somewhere. And I remember lying in bed, like, paralyzed with fear that my parents were going to get in a plane crash because I had looked at this fan
John Dehlin [00:12:37] fiction and you're how old?
Makenzie Benzi [00:12:39] I must have been 9 or 10 years old.
John Dehlin [00:12:41] So it's before puberty.
Makenzie Benzi [00:12:42] Before puberty.
John Dehlin [00:12:43] It's kind of sexual awakening, kind of, like content.
Makenzie Benzi [00:12:47] Right. And.
John Dehlin [00:12:49] But you already know enough to feel like it's naughty.
Makenzie Benzi [00:12:52] Yeah, Yeah. I knew enough to, like, know that, like, those feelings were wrong. And I Felt like the relationship with God was that, oh, if you transgress, you deserve to be punished. And I thought that that action was worth murdering my parents. Like I was, I, I was laying in bed and like promising to never look at it again if they, if God would just bring my parents home. And I mean, and that has to do with post 9 11. So there's just a lot of fear and anxiety and especially for a child not understanding that. But I felt like that was fair. And so, yeah, that was like my first bargaining experience with God and that, that led into me a couple years later. I was reading a book that explored this teenage girl who had a long term boyfriend and was making the decision whether or not to have sex with him. And that was the entire premise of the. And looking back, it's, I'm impressed with that being a teenage book and I think it shows just how important that decision is to make and I appreciate it. I know there was a lot of backlash. I know my mom did not know that's what I was reading, but I think it demonstrates just how important that decision is. But at the time I also knew that was like controversial. And in that book, the character's older sister was, taught her how she could practice having sex. And that was like my first introduction to masturbation and especially a girl masturbating. And that led me to like trying it out for myself. And that was another like long cycle of shame and bargaining and promising God to never do it again and then slipping up and feeling like, how is this going to impact my future? Like, maybe nothing's happening right now, but maybe later down the road someone might die or my, I might have a terminal illness or all these things that I felt like I couldn't control myself. And I felt so dirty because nobody had ever explained to me like a woman or a girl doing that. I had always heard growing up, boys, pornography, masturbation, that's a thing that they do and that's a thing, that's a struggle that they're going through. And it had never, it had never been brought to my attention that other girls might also be doing that. And it's something that I hadn't even, I had never brought up to anyone else, I think, until I was married. Like after we were married where I was like, I used to do this and I don't even know if that's normal. And even practicing to talk about this, talking to other friends, other female friends and saying like, I don't even know if I can say this word. There's so much shame and there's so much weight in that. And how are people gonna view me as like this? Am I just going to be viewed as a sexual deviant? And, and it was funny because I still had that Persona in the church of being this perfect Mormon girl who knew all the answers, who was always asked to present and to share her testimony. And. But I knew this was also who I was. And then later turning 15, I. That's when I started making out with boys and sneaking out with boys. And so it just was, it just became very apparent to me that I could present one way and still be an evil person per se because I still thought that I was bad. I didn't think that exploring my sexuality by myself or with boys was okay. And I felt immense guilt for that. But I couldn't stop it. And I still was, I still had this image to maintain. Yeah. So around even I think I was 18 years old when I got my patriarchal blessing. And the, the night before I had, I just made out with a boy and I thought, and then I, when I got my patriarchal blessing, it was kind of a letdown. It wasn't as exciting as I thought it would be. I was so excited for what my future would hold and these amazing things I would learn about myself. And it was just kind of standard. And I was disappointed and I was like, oh, that's because I broke the law of chastity the night before.
Guest 2 [00:17:52] And
Makenzie Benzi [00:17:55] I, I never had sex in high school, but I wanted to. And I was trying to find ways to justify me having sex without it being my responsibility and that would be called sexual assault. And I was like romanticizing that in a way. Like I was like, how could I find a way that I could get to do that but it not be my fault? And looking back at that is the most horrifying thought that I've ever had and am sad to admit, but it was very real at some point in my life and I'm grateful that I was never put in a position to have been assaulted or raped or taken advantage of in any way. But the fact that I was,
Gerald Benzi [00:18:51] I
Makenzie Benzi [00:18:51] was romanticizing it in some way or open to the possibility of it happening in any sense of the way is just so dangerous and so wrong and could have easily been a real, a real situation I could have put myself into.
Guest 2 [00:19:04] Yeah. That really speaks to how much like high demand, like purity, culture driven religions don't allow people to own their bodies or their sexualities that you would even think that because I Probably thought that too.
Makenzie Benzi [00:19:17] Right.
Guest 2 [00:19:18] Like, you want something that's a natural human expression, you have to find ways to do it in the most unhealthy way, because you don't own that part of your body. So either God owns it or a man can own it. But the idea that you own it.
Makenzie Benzi [00:19:31] Right.
Guest 2 [00:19:31] Didn't quite cross your mind.
Makenzie Benzi [00:19:33] The best option is someone does this to me.
Guest 2 [00:19:35] Yeah. What was your perception of your purity, your virtue all tied into your virginity from an LDS standpoint? What were the messages that you were getting?
Makenzie Benzi [00:19:48] I. I felt. Very good question. I knew I was, like, holding on to my virginity, so I felt I was safe, but at the same time, like, I had ended up going to a bishop not on my own accord, but because my parents had found out that I had been sneaking out with a boy when I was 15 years old and was forced to meet with the bishop. And. And I did. I mean, I did feel real guilt about that, but looking back, it's also just because I was indoctrinated to feel that guilt and to feel like it was the worst thing I could possibly do. And I remember lying about it because he was asking me, was it over under clothes or. And I. I couldn't do that. I could not own up to that completely. But I am proud of myself for walking out of that situation and not feeling bad about lying. Like, I just knew that I couldn't. And I. I knew that, like, I could repent, but then I also knew, oh, well, if you're planning on repenting, then it doesn't count. So it was. I was genuinely always trying to stop making out with boys or to stop masturbating. And. Yeah, so it was really tricky. And it led up to, like, to the point where when I decided to go on a mission, I. I was tormented with the idea of, will I be sent home because of these past things?
John Dehlin [00:21:28] So.
Makenzie Benzi [00:21:29] And I did finally, like, I did get a feeling that, like, hey, everything is forgiven. You're good. And it did wash over me. And. And never again was I worried about it. So I do. I do feel like I had those moments that I did feel, like, real repentance, and I felt. I felt clean going forward, but it was very rocky being a teenager, repenting and being sincere, but then falling into it again because I'm a teenager and because I. I enjoyed it, and I enjoyed being with. With boys that liked me and found me attractive and. And I got along with. I had a really good friend that. That he did ask me, like, if I wanted to have Sex and just thinking about it made me sick to my stomach. And I wanted to, but I felt guilty for even wanting to and even considering it for any. Like I couldn't eat for days. I think I was like crying at some point and my mom asked me what was wrong and I made up a story and it was just. It was like I was seeing myself and I was. And this version, this perfect golden child version was upset with that version of myself that would be considering it. So both. That's the dichotomy is both sides of me were genuine. I really enjoyed church. I found my community there. I found my identity there. I did. I enjoyed spiritual experiences. I enjoyed studying and knowing the answers. And it was. But it was very hard for me to reconcile those two parts of me that is just me. And it wasn't two separate sides, but I was made to feel like it was two separate sides and one was whole and one was broken. So. Yeah.
Guest 2 [00:23:20] Interesting.
John Dehlin [00:23:23] Really quick. And there may not be anything here, but. And I'm trying to remember if we talked about this in the break or actually you said this as part of this episode. You. You come from a. Your parents are mixed. Mixed race. Right.
Makenzie Benzi [00:23:37] Right.
John Dehlin [00:23:38] You have a. Your parents are. Interracial marriage.
Makenzie Benzi [00:23:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:23:40] Do you want to talk any. Is there anything about your childhood up until high school and including. And especially your life as a Mormon where race or your parents, interracial marriage or any of that stuff was important or interesting or affecting to you?
Makenzie Benzi [00:23:58] Yeah, absolutely. So
John Dehlin [00:24:03] we can come back to the. I don't want to like derail this.
Makenzie Benzi [00:24:05] No, no, this is great. And I, I probably would have moved on without acknowledging it, but my mom, so my mom is being half white, half black. My dad is. Is fully white, like blonde hair, blue eyed. And I am such a poor representation of my parents. They're. The girls in my family look like my dad. We are very fair. And then the boys like are darker.
John Dehlin [00:24:30] Did you tell us if your parents were converts or they.
Makenzie Benzi [00:24:33] They were both lifelong members. Their parents were lifelong members. I'm not sure how far it goes back, but at least on one side it goes back pretty far and even. Yeah. So as far back as I know they've been members. I'm multi.
John Dehlin [00:24:48] Generational.
Makenzie Benzi [00:24:48] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:24:49] Okay.
Makenzie Benzi [00:24:49] Pioneers on some. Some end. But.
John Dehlin [00:24:54] But the. But the part of your mom's background that. That includes people of color, I'm guessing have to enter later in the Mormon story.
Makenzie Benzi [00:25:04] Yeah. So my mom did not know her biological father. So she was raised in an all white family. All of her Siblings were white, and so that. That created some conflict with her for sure. And her own identity not being fully explored, especially living in. She lived in rural Utah, so pretty much the only black person for miles. And yeah, she did have. She had a Native American step grandfather. Um, so she's got a great story, too. Hopefully we can get her on the podcast one day. Yeah, she's writing a book one day, so I will let her share that story. But we didn't really explore race in my family, and, you know, we knew that we were part black, and that was always another part of my identity that I loved. Like, it was. It was like a. Just a fun detail about me. And in high school, there were, like, a few black guys that I made friends with. And I remember sitting in class one day, and one of the guys was like, hey, what are you? I was like, oh, I'm white and I'm black. And he's like, no way. And he stood up in the class and he's like, yo, aj, this girl's black. Like, to another black guy. And every time he would see me, he would, like, raise the black power fist. I mean, I'm like, all right, like, sounds good. And I mean, there were a couple other guys that. Yeah, just. So it was fun, right? Like, I felt like I was special or unique for. For being black and white.
John Dehlin [00:26:48] You could probably pass. I'm. I'm guessing you could pass for being Italian or European as well. It wouldn't necessarily be obvious.
Makenzie Benzi [00:26:55] Right. The most people that are not black would guess that I was Hispanic or. Yeah, Italian, just something a little other than white. And even to this day, that's difficult because I don't. I do get more black men recognizing my race, my racial identity, not so many women. And I think. I mean, there's a lot of complexity to that. And I think it's because I am white passing. I.
John Dehlin [00:27:26] And was your mom white, White passing?
Makenzie Benzi [00:27:30] No, she. She. Yeah, she was very, like, caramel colored. Like, you could tell that she was brown. So people knew. But even I know in her circle, she had a couple black friends that were like, oh, but you're the good black, where, like, people treat you differently because you are closer to. To white, you know, And I'm not sure that she. That she would say the same or. Or know that. I don't think she had very many experiences feeling profiled or anything like that. So it just. It wasn't a conversation. It wasn't a detriment to her. I know she would get comments specifically, my dad would get comments when they were together, usually from, from black women that were upset or black men that were upset that a white man was dating a black woman or was with a black woman. So like taking someone that they felt they should have.
Race, Interracial Relationships, and Church Teachings
John Dehlin [00:28:30] So just really quickly, especially for non Mormon listeners, it is historically been been taught in the Mormon church that interracial marriages are bad. You can even find, I think in modern curriculum still top Mormon church leaders in the, in the Sunday school manuals or in the teaching curriculum to kind of stay within your kind that you know or just explicit interracial marriages are bad. So that would have been the context that your parents would have grown up in the church. And that doesn't mean it never happened. It just meant that it was looked down upon officially and sometimes unofficially. Do you know if your parents, I guess you said race was never discussed. So you may not even know if your parents experienced any backlash or discrimination or bigotry as Mormons for being interracially. Interracially married?
Makenzie Benzi [00:29:27] Yeah, from what I understand, they really didn't, they didn't experience any backlash. And in conversations with my mom specifically about race in the church, and she's like, you know what? I, I never felt that and I know that other people do, but the fact that I was raised in Utah and didn't experience any hatred for that, you know, just proves that the church is doing okay with that and we've moved on and, and especially the idea that, that my father was the, the white one. I think it might be different if, if it were reversed. But I mean, he has privilege being a white male in the society. And she wasn't raised with any black culture really. So she didn't present like other black people might be viewed in the church. She was raised with, by a white family and always in the church. So she just always fit in and always assimilated. So I don't think anyone saw anything different. And it was like, oh good. Like you're a good, you're a good black person. Maybe that's, that's my conjecture to maybe what people had thought about them. And I'm. Go ahead.
John Dehlin [00:30:42] And then also there's the, we discussed this with Gerald in the first episode. There's the, the black priesthood ban pre 1978, where people of color were banned from either holding the priesthood if there were men or attending the temple, getting married in the temple if there were Mormons and people of color. So there's the black priesthood ban that might have been brought up in your home, especially with your mom being a person of color. And then there's also the Book of Mormon narrative that's still in the Book of Mormon where God curses people with dark skin if they're wicked. That also the curse of Cain doctrine that black people were black because they were less violently pre existence and that's why they were carried the mark of the curse of Cain. Did any of that ever get brought up in your home, you know, before college? And if, if not. Wow. And if so how was it talked about or dealt with?
Makenzie Benzi [00:31:34] Yeah, my mom is very conflict avoidant and so much so that she always says that peacemaking is her. One of her gifts of the spirit. So she just wasn't, she wasn't concerned with it. She knew how people treated her and it was always fairly. And I remember that my dad did give her a dvd. It was like, I'm sure it was some apologists in the church and black mem. Black apologists explaining why the priesthood ban was what it was and, and kind of, you know, excusing it. And to my mom, she was like, you know what? I don't, I don't care to delve further into it. I know that you're just true. And I'm just. I've moved on from it and I'm not concerned. So my dad, to his credit, was very. He. He was more interested in, in explaining it and justifying it, but my mom didn't care to.
John Dehlin [00:32:37] So what about.
Makenzie Benzi [00:32:38] I dropped it.
John Dehlin [00:32:38] What about you? Did you have doubts or questions in high school or whatever?
Makenzie Benzi [00:32:43] I mean, I definitely did and,
Gerald Benzi [00:32:48] but
Makenzie Benzi [00:32:48] I was still under that idea that I wasn't allowed to look to other sources. And I knew that it would cause me to be upset and seeing like my mom's example of, of it not bothering her, like, okay, well, if it doesn't bother her, then maybe it shouldn't bother me. And I just kind of let it go. And I don't even feel like in high school we even really talked about it. I mean, it's really something. Yeah. I didn't even acknowledge fully until college maybe, or even had discussions about until later.
Guest 2 [00:33:29] So.
John Dehlin [00:33:29] Gerald, I'm just. I want to check in with you really quickly. This is McKenzie story, but like we just spent, you know, three hours where you. The culmination was you getting baptized, having never been told and how maybe if you had been told, you might not have chosen gotten baptized. Now you're listening to McKenzie say she knew all along and nobody and her mom knew all along and none of them cared. I'm curious how that. What. That's what that sounds like to you?
Guest 2 [00:33:56] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:33:56] Why did you marry me?
Gerald Benzi [00:33:58] I. I mean, at that time that I was getting those lessons and I did not get anyone explaining to me. It did not, like, okay to me when I was friends with her that she might be. She might not be mentioning that. But recently, I remember I said to you, I was like, hey, the reason why I'm excited about this podcast is I want to know if there is a template they teach missionaries or a tactic that they teach you to approach confess that probably influence your interaction with me. So this probably is like one of those things. Like, she never. She never brought it up. Right. So I don't know how much of it is her not wanting to talk about that or how much is, you know, how missionaries are told or how people are teaching these to other people. Because.
John Dehlin [00:34:47] Right.
Gerald Benzi [00:34:47] She also had mentioned, okay, my mom is black. At that point, I knew that her mom was mixed. But I don't know, maybe you can tell us why is it that you didn't bring that up? Was it because it was normalized not to talk about it? Or at that point, like, it didn't even, like.
Makenzie Benzi [00:35:03] Yeah, it just seemed like the narrative to me was it was a mistake that we can't. No. I think more my. My parents were under the impression and they'll correct me maybe later, but from what I understood is there is a reason and it was God. And we don't know the reason, but we fixed it.
John Dehlin [00:35:30] Now it's all good.
Guest 2 [00:35:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:32] Yeah. Because listeners, if you didn't hear the first part, Gerald got baptized knowing McKenzie, and she didn't, you know, she didn't even tell him about the black priesthood ban, even though she knew about it. And so, like last episode, I'm like, McKenzie, how in the world could you allow this to happen? But you just explained it. If you grew up in an interracial home and it was like, yeah, we don't talk about this and it's all fine, then why would you bring it up? Because that's literally how you were raised.
Guest 2 [00:35:58] Yeah, well.
John Dehlin [00:35:59] And it's all the sense in the world now.
Makenzie Benzi [00:36:00] I knew that you had been into anti. You've been like, you know, quote unquote, anti material. You had been researching on YouTube. You had been talking to ex Mormons. You had Googled all these things. So I was like, well, if he's not going to bring it up, why
John Dehlin [00:36:17] would you bring it up?
Makenzie Benzi [00:36:18] You had to have run into it. You know, that was my understanding. And I. I remember Asking maybe we were married. This is blame that we didn't.
Gerald Benzi [00:36:27] We were married. When you, when you brought it up,
Makenzie Benzi [00:36:29] I was like, how did you get over that? Like, how did you reason through that?
Gerald Benzi [00:36:32] I remember that we're taking a drive at the Alpine loop or something, and you asked me, how did you reconcile with the fact that the priesthood ban. And that's when I think I kind of got into my story. And I was like, yeah. I mean, at that point I thought, you know, God does things at the right time for some. For certain reason, you know? But when I made my decision, I literally did not. I wasn't aware of it. And I gave them.
Makenzie Benzi [00:36:58] Like, were we dating when we had this conversation?
Gerald Benzi [00:36:59] No, we were already married. Like, we.
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:01] I was trying to give myself some credit.
Gerald Benzi [00:37:02] No, we were already married. When you literally asked me about. I don't know how Daddy came up, but I remember that driveway, like, coming from Park City. And you, you just were like, I just want to know, how did you reconcile? But also partly it's because I was curious.
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:16] I mean, to be fair, I should have been curious earlier.
Gerald Benzi [00:37:19] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:19] I was like, he's researched into it. He's cool with it.
Gerald Benzi [00:37:22] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:22] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [00:37:23] You. You did.
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:24] Why am I going to destroy that? Because I knew I wanted to get married in the temple.
John Dehlin [00:37:27] And there's this idea about, like, if you put frogs. This is all fiction, but you put frogs in boiling water and they jump out, but if you stick them in cold water and then slowly turn up the heat, they won't. And I don't know if that is even true, but it's just this idea. You were, you were slow boiled.
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:44] To, To. To a boiling point. You were slow cooked as a Mormon. So it's just the, it's just the water you were swimming in.
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:52] Right. Why would you bring it up?
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:54] And you lived with your friend, your black friend. So I'm like, yeah, well, it's cool with all these guys. Sure.
John Dehlin [00:38:01] They've talked about it.
Gerald Benzi [00:38:03] Turns out.
John Dehlin [00:38:03] That's awesome. I mean, that's fascinating because. Because there's always this idea of the Mormon bubble and how, like, in 2021, there's people who've never heard of Joe, didn't know Joseph was a polygam. Mormons who are 30 or 40 years old never heard Joseph was a polygamist, don't know about the Book of Abraham, never heard of the CES letter.
Gerald Benzi [00:38:19] Right.
John Dehlin [00:38:19] Never heard of Mormon stories. Like, that's almost all Mormons. Like, it's a very small percentage of Mormons that know anything that's discussed on this podcast. And we're always just like, how does that happen? But this is how it happens.
Makenzie Benzi [00:38:32] It's exactly how it happens.
John Dehlin [00:38:33] Slow boiled into Mormonism or indoctrinated into Mormonism with all of the information. And then you're conditioned never to talk about it, not to bring up uncomfortable things. That's how pretty much every Mormon ever doesn't know anything about their faith.
Makenzie Benzi [00:38:47] Consent, informed consent is not taught in the church. It's not taught as a missionary. We're not taught to explain everything and make sure everyone knows before they sign up. We're given the five lessons that are very basic. God loves you and he sent Jesus and this is Joseph Smith and you can have the plan of salvation and eternal life. Do you accept? And at that time I subscribed to that and I chose not to think more about it because I didn't want to damage my faith. So it, there was, there was a form of self protection on my end and protecting him where. Why would I bring this up when he's come to the conclusion on his own the church is true? I've come to that conclusion on my own. Let's move on.
John Dehlin [00:39:34] You know, I mean, if we're, I mean, Cara, you tell me if I'm wrong about this and you already said it care last episode. Like if we want to try and have a charitable view of orthodox Mormons that would allow you, Gerald, to get baptized without telling you about the black priesthood ban. I guess if you're conditioned from a young age to believe, it doesn't matter that it's all, that God's good with it and it's all good. I could see the mindset that says, why bring it up? It's just going to keep him from joining and it's all good with God. So everything's good. So like, why would you bring it up? I mean, I, I can see, yeah,
Guest 2 [00:40:08] I guess I can see his point about like if what you're taught as a missionary or these are the lessons that people need to join. If they're okay with these lessons, then they're okay with joining. These lessons are approved through the prophet, who I trust to be the mouthpiece for God. So it's just one thing after another. If you believe that the prophet will not lead the church astray, you can say that those are mistakes of the past. But the church is not an apostasy. It's still true. And if the prophet doesn't need you making sure that every black member knows about it, then it's fine.
John Dehlin [00:40:34] So I can see God would have put him in the lessons if he wanted him in the lessons.
Makenzie Benzi [00:40:37] Yes. Yeah, it's. I definitely feel guilt for not having those discussions before, but at the place I was at. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:40:51] Well, I don't mean to jump to that in your story, I just.
Makenzie Benzi [00:40:54] But so we won't.
John Dehlin [00:40:56] Okay.
Guest 2 [00:40:56] But I have some follow up questions.
John Dehlin [00:40:58] But yeah, we'll come back to that.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:00] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:41:00] But I mean, I guess we talked about it because this is. This helps explain so much. So thank you so much. Keep.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:08] Yeah, yeah. I mean, who am I to say that it should be a problem when people who present as black, who are blacker than me, are okay with it?
John Dehlin [00:41:16] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:17] So.
John Dehlin [00:41:17] And then the Book of Mormon, cursing people with dark skin for wickedness did. Was that ever a problem? I don't want to make it a problem. No, it wasn't a problem.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:25] It wasn't. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:29] Okay.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:30] I. I think I viewed it as like, I had been taught that it was more like the spiritual cursing or the spiritual blackening of their skin.
Gerald Benzi [00:41:39] The pigment wasn't physical.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:41] Yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [00:41:43] Spiritual pigment.
Makenzie Benzi [00:41:45] It makes me feel really dumb. But that's okay. When you know better, you do better. And that's the story of me. Yeah. So that's pretty much my childhood. I. Growing up.
Gerald Benzi [00:42:01] I don't mean to it or to distract you, but I. I guess before you mentioned something about. To me, not on this podcast, about when you were a teenager and you were exploring, you know, like learning your sexuality, you were not okay with how the church treated you after you had to go to the bishop. It faces how they treated the teenage boy.
John Dehlin [00:42:30] Oh, yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:42:32] Because we were in different wards, so.
John Dehlin [00:42:34] So yeah, start. Start over and tell us that.
Makenzie Benzi [00:42:37] Yeah. So I was strongly encouraged to go to the bishop by my parents once they found out we'd been sneaking out in the middle of the night to make out. And again, I was like, intense guilt. Never could never imagine feeling worse. The bishop at the time, he
Gerald Benzi [00:43:02] did.
Makenzie Benzi [00:43:02] I have two experiences. I don't remember which one this was. That bishop was interesting because he and his yearly interviews with the youth would invite them to share what. Which commandment they had the hardest time following. And so you had to come up with something. So thankfully I had a friend that went in before me and what she said was, mind you, this is maybe like 16, 17 years old. That's like fishing for exactly like, let's sell yourself out.
John Dehlin [00:43:30] It reminds me of auditing in Scientology where they're trying to get dirt on you. Basically.
Makenzie Benzi [00:43:34] Exactly. So what she said was, drinks, alcoholic drinks look appetizing. I've never tried one, but they look good. And he was like, well, if you drink, you're going to, you're going to become addicted, you're going to end up pregnant. You are all these. He, he told her that she needed to go to an AA meeting to see what alcohol does to people. And thankfully her mom was like, you are, I am not sending my 16 year old child into an AA meeting and just completely disregarded him. And so mine, I had time to think about a good answer that would still put me in a good light. I said my biggest struggle is that I made my, I did make my prom dress modest, but it was really hard for me to do it, but I still did it. And he, and still he was like, well, if you had gone to prom with an immodest dress, then you would have attracted the wrong guy who is going to take advantage of you and only care about your body and you would have ended up pregnant. And, you know, all these things which, and he literally told me, you need to be more like, you need to be the kind of girl that this boy would like. And it was the name of a boy in my wardrobe that he thought was the epitome of a good, decent young man who ironically. I wish I had, I wish I had the nerve to tell that bishop at that point, like really, because he is actually dating a non member right now who wore spaghetti straps to prom. So that is an irrelevant comment. And it's just, that's the kind of ideas that, that I grew up with in the church is that you needed to save your virginity for your husband. You needed to, to dress modestly so that you could attract the right guy one day who would be a good father and a good priesthood holder at 16 years old. And I mean even giving us. I remember a lesson where we were given a little present and that was our virginity and we were supposed to give it to our husband on the wedding night as, as a gift. And that caused a lot of, a lot of trauma and a lot of just totally backwards thinking and a lot of guilt and shame. But yeah, so that's, that's the background of this bishop who. I couldn't take the sacrament, um, for a while. I had to like continually meet with him. Um, I had to like rank how badly I felt. And I said, you know, on a scale of 1 to 10, and it was a 10. And he was like, well, just imagine if you had had sex, you know, you, you don't even know the kind of guilt that you're feeling. This is nothing. So it just was so much fear. Meanwhile, I mean I got my room taken away from me for a year. I had to, I had, yeah, my room, I had my own room and bathroom and walk in closet and I had to give it to my younger brother and I had to stay with my little 3 year old sister because, because I couldn't be trusted to have my own room because I would sneak out of that room and that was my punishment. Didn't have a phone for a year. And yeah, then this boy on the other hand, I mean his parents were like, things happen, no problem. I don't even think that he had to meet with his bishop. He, he was older so I definitely felt exploited that way. That was like the first boy that told me he loved me and liked me. And he had, he had done things with other girls before that so he knew what would happen to them. And I mean I can't blame him because at the same time I was still consenting to do that as well. But I, even at 15, I still felt like you were 17 years old, you know better, you know what's going to happen, you know, this level of guilt that you're putting me through. But I mean he was also a 17 year old boy. And now that I'm older and looking back at 17 year old boys, they do not have that forethought, immaturity. But I still felt manipulated and he would tell me that he loved me, but he didn't want to be my boyfriend. Because, because we're not allowed to date right. Until you're 16. You can't have a boyfriend until you're not even in my house. Sixteen, I'd have to be 18 to have a boyfriend, but two days. So he was respecting those rules, but not the, the better rules, which are don't take someone's daughter out of her house and drive around in your charger late at night and always skip school and go to Disneyland or whatever or. Yeah. So that was a mess.
Gerald Benzi [00:48:23] So in your, in that story, why, what stood out to me when you told initially I was, I was like, so she, she's 15 and already she's like he's a repeat offender but he's like not getting a punishment at all. But then she had to go talk to the visual when like her parents are making this a huge deal. And at 15 she had already like started this journey that she's still on, on how she felt like women in the Church basically, like, did not. Were not treated the same, you know, because of that experience. So when, for me, like, when. When you told me, I was like, oh, wow, you started really early questioning stuff more than you realize, because, yeah, you were frustrated about the punishment, but at the same time, you highlighted a certain, like, you know, a certain treatment that you were getting, which is unfair. For real. If. If he had done certain things that, I mean, every. I mean, people were away, like, oh, he had done this before, and then now it's you. And then you had to go talk to your bishop, and he's being treated as if, like, you have done this crazy thing and everyone is freaking out around you. And his parents are just like, ah, it happens, you know?
Guest 2 [00:49:38] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:49:38] Like, why can't it just happen for me? But, okay. And I mean, I wonder too, how things would have been different if my parents had let me just date normally. I mean, I wasn't allowed to go into groups that had the same number of boys and girls because I thought everyone would just be dating each other. And so it kind of forced me to have to sneak around because I'm a teenage girl. I want to hang out with boys, I want to kiss boys, and I wasn't allowed to do that, honestly. So I just became kind of like a pathological liar. And that sucks. I wish that I could have been honest with my parents. And then I saw the difference when. Because I. I was followed by three boys and they were not as protective of the boys. And I even remember, like, I was home from college and I'm, like, taking my brother to go hang out with a girl. I was like, I wasn't allowed to be in. In even numbers with boys and girls. And you are openly just dating girls underage and that, I mean, that comes from me just being the first kid and them wanting to be perfect according to what they wanted. But it definitely made me feel like I was this little flower they had to protect. Even though I knew I was. I made better decisions than my brothers and I was smarter than them, and I was more responsible, and I did care about what my parents thought about me and what the church thought about me. And I was invested in church, and. But still, I wasn't given any benefit of the doubt. So I. I can't blame my parents because I am who I am. And maybe I would have done the same thing if they had given me freedom. And I still would have exploited that and. And taken that for advantage. But it is something. I wonder if. If I would have been different had I. Had I been expected to make better decisions, if I would have actually, I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:51:36] So. So to maybe summarize a tiny bit, it sounds like what you're talking about is your perception of. Of double standards, how Mormon girls were held to a higher standard of. And in this purity culture. Just like we talked about in your episode, Gerald, Mormon girls were held to a higher standard around sexual purity than boys. And I think accompanying this is Mormon girls are often the burden of keeping boys from being sexually impure and. Or keeping them from being able to go on a mission. Oftentimes within Mormonism, that burden is on the Mormon girl. Bizarrely.
Makenzie Benzi [00:52:13] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:13] And then finally you're talking about just how strict rules surrounding what is normative. Healthy behavior oftentimes leads kids to want to hide and lie and be dishonest. And so you may be having the perception as a Mormon parent or a Mormon leader that your kids are sexually pure, but what they maybe sometimes are is just really good liars and really good hiders and, and you just don't, you know, you've basically destroyed intimacy and honesty at the sake of. For. In exchange for the perception of what you would call sexual purity.
Makenzie Benzi [00:52:53] Right.
John Dehlin [00:52:54] That all maybe can come at a cost. Is that right?
Makenzie Benzi [00:52:57] I felt like my parents didn't trust me, even though they had no reason not to trust me, you know, prior to the lying and the deceit, because I was a good kid and I was, I did have all the right answers and I was making my prom dress modest and all these things. And so it was like, well, if I'm gonna do these things and be the perfect person that you want me to, and you're still not gonna give me freedom to stay out past 10pm or to hang out with a group of people that I enjoy.
John Dehlin [00:53:22] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:53:22] Then why should I? It doesn't benefit me. And maybe if I had been allowed to hang out with boys and to date in broad daylight and just do normal kid things, then, then I wouldn't be sneaking out of my house because I wouldn't need to. So it's just. It just was frustrating that I felt like I had earned trust by everything I had done and I didn't get it.
Guest 2 [00:53:43] So
Makenzie Benzi [00:53:46] that's. Those rules turned me into a liar. I had no choice because I still wanted to do. I still wanted to.
John Dehlin [00:53:53] I think at least one of my children went through this with me, just how strict I was. And I. As I'm trying to re conceptualize parenting now. We've talked about this with Margi on gift to the Mormon faith crisis. Now, what I care about as a parent is that my kid wants to tell me everything. It's a lot less important to me that they obey this or that rule than that I have a relationship with them where they don't feel like they need to hide and lie to me. That's what it means to be a successful parent now. Not that I create in my mind the perception that my kids are obeying certain rules when in reality, they may or may not be.
Makenzie Benzi [00:54:30] Right.
John Dehlin [00:54:31] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:54:32] And it's. I even knew at that young age. I mean, you can lock me in a tower, but you don't know what I do when I go to school. And I literally was leaving school and forging notes from my parents, too, so they wouldn't get the calls. And, you know, you. Once you accept that you cannot control a child, I think, yeah, the. The better off you are. And I. I love my parents, and I know they were doing the best they could and the best they understood at that time. And I don't. I'm not angry at them. I'm just learning from that situation and learning how I want to be a better parent in the future. So. Yeah, that was. That was my teenage years. Yeah.
Guest 2 [00:55:22] Well, I just would like to interject with some levity, if that's okay at this time, if there's anyone out there who needs to go see their bishop and they need to think of a lie of something they're struggling with. I just grabbed this off the shelf. It's my worthiness journal, and it has every single commandment in Mormonism that you're supposed to follow from the church handbooks. So kids, pick this one up and just pick a random page. And don't actually admit that you're struggling with anything. Just go with what I like. Accepting missionaries, not doing gymnastics. So make sure you tell the bishop you're struggling with wanting to encourage missionaries to do gymnastics. And then talk about mental gymnastics, because
Makenzie Benzi [00:55:59] that is highly favored here. Yeah.
BYU, Dating Culture, and Serving a Mission
Guest 2 [00:56:05] All right. And then. Then you went to BYU after that? I did.
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:09] I went to byu.
John Dehlin [00:56:09] I was Provo or Idaho.
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:11] Provo.
Gerald Benzi [00:56:11] Oh, yes.
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:14] As I was told in my homeward.
John Dehlin [00:56:16] The real byu.
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:17] Yeah. Well, yes, because byu, Idaho is the church's school. No, the Lord's school. But BYU Provo is just the church's school. Which is funny because it's meant to be, like, putting down BYU Provo. But shouldn't the church and the Lord be one in the same? If it's the true place. But I digress.
John Dehlin [00:56:36] It was made That's Mormon culture, not Mormon doctrine. Stop holding Mormon culture against church.
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:44] Apparently the Lord is not a fan of flip flops. And that is the difference between BYU
John Dehlin [00:56:48] Idaho and BYU Provo or Spandex or what is it called? Like, yoga Leggings. Like, what is it?
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:55] Yeah, leggings.
John Dehlin [00:56:56] Non Mormons. Like, what are they talking about? Oh, I know, but no, it's. BYU is a very prestigious within Mormonism. High academic standards, very high, you know, average ACT scores and GPAs. It's a hard school to get into.
Makenzie Benzi [00:57:11] Right. So that was, that was the comment that people would give me because for the parents that their children only got into BYU Idaho, which is seen as a less prestigious school, they were like, oh, but that's the Lord's school. So it made them feel better at the end of the day. Anyway, I was really happy to go to byu. That was my number one school. I had gone there for EFY and things like that. And it was far enough away from my parents to have my own life, but still close enough I could visit. I have family here, so I, yeah, I would have connections. And I have to say, my, my experience at BYU was really positive. I had great professors, I had great friends. I didn't, I didn't have any particularly negative experiences. I completely understand people that do. I have a lot of friends that have had very negative experiences. I enjoyed my time there.
John Dehlin [00:58:10] I have a question.
Makenzie Benzi [00:58:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:58:12] So knowing that you would have graduated from high school with a lot of internalized doubt and shame and guilt, and me having grown up in Texas, not California, but Texas, and thinking of Utah is like the equivalent of Oz. It's like, oh, I'm going like Dorothy going to see the wizard and Oz. I wonder if you, if you going to Utah and to BYU was like a fresh start for you where you could like, start over and, and hear from the general authorities and go to conference and, and be inspired and take those religion classes and kind of like become the legitimate Mormon that you failed to, to be as a kid. I'm not trying to project that on you, but I'm curious.
Makenzie Benzi [00:58:51] Yeah, it's like I could finally lean into that Persona that I had presented at church. Right. So, so I was very interested in church. I, I loved learning and I loved having the answers. And so I was like, great, I can finally let go of this other, more sinful part of myself and just present as I, as a great Mormon girl at BYU and learn a lot and get an education. And I, I was intent on getting an education. I really wasn't going to get married. I did think it was the land of Oz for that. I was like, finally there will be men there that value my education and my testimony. And it's not just, you know, being a, a small, blonde, blue eyed girl that, you know, that I had seen that girls in California had gotten that attention. And I was like, but BYU is, is a step ahead. And these, they're going to be so much more mature and more invested in my spirituality. And that was the big disappointment for me. Going to BYU is, you know, I'd heard all these stories of people just getting dates, just being in the library and just, you know, eating at the cougar.
John Dehlin [01:00:01] What? Provo had superficial beauty standards in Provo? Is that what you're saying?
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:04] No, it was a shock and I.
John Dehlin [01:00:06] A true care. You grew up in Provo?
Guest 2 [01:00:08] Yeah. I had braces. I was like standing in the back like somebody loved me. Like me and Makenzie would have just been like,
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:17] I have a feeling Kara did a lot better in the dating sector than I did.
Guest 2 [01:00:20] But did I mention the braces? This, this nose is still not treating me too well. Didn't treat me back well back then either. I don't know.
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:29] I'm sure we would have gotten along because I did. I found an old blog that I had made, like my first, my first year at byu and I was so, I was so conservative, so like in love with byu. I was like, if people, I, I had heard that people didn't appreciate BYU or were complaining about byu and I was like, if you don't appreciate the great opportunities we have at BYU to grow spiritually and intellectually, then you can just. You're probably just upset you can't wear your skank attire. I literally said the word skank attire.
John Dehlin [01:01:03] Skank attire.
Makenzie Benzi [01:01:04] Oh my God.
John Dehlin [01:01:05] Or is that two words?
Makenzie Benzi [01:01:06] Oh, that's two words. Karen knows. See, I used it.
Guest 2 [01:01:10] I'm sure there's some Shouted it from
Makenzie Benzi [01:01:11] my car, of course, in our. Yes. So I mean that I was very intensely true believing Mormon. I mean, love the school, loved everything it had to offer. Was upset with anyone that had a negative experience or perception of it. Even though I, I was not. Even though I still, I had my opinions. I wanted to get an education. I didn't just want to be a housewife. I didn't want to be a stay at home mom. Even though I grew up with a stay at home mom and she loved it and was great at it. I, I knew that I loved school and was good at school and I was like Whatever I do, I want to get a master's degree because I can and I would be good at it. And I knew I didn't want to get married young. I still wanted to date. I. I didn't think I was asking for too much to go on dates, but I really, really didn't. But, yeah, I was always told that I was intimidating, and that was like a badge of pride at first. And then it became really old because I was still very hardcore Mormon and doing all the right things and just felt like, why is it intimidating for me to be doing my best at church and at school? Why is that too much for you to handle from a woman?
Guest 2 [01:02:40] Intimidating in what way do you think they meant?
Makenzie Benzi [01:02:43] I was told. They never told me. It was just, you're intimidating. And I perceived it as I had opinions and I spoke loudly. I don't know.
Guest 2 [01:02:55] You.
Gerald Benzi [01:02:56] You told me that people only loved you for 48 hours. Was it because after 48 hours you would have shared your opinion and talked loud? Do you think, though?
Makenzie Benzi [01:03:06] Yeah. I mean, even though I. I wouldn't have labeled myself a feminist at that time because I was still conservative, I still very much believed in women having choices and having power and doing what they want to do. And that just apparently doesn't work very well for Provo, Utah.
John Dehlin [01:03:26] This isn't just a Mormon thing, but it is definitely very much a Mormon thing. Just traditional standards around patriarchy sort of breed women to be passive and docile and invulnerable and weak. And you need the strong man who's assertive and alpha male to like these standards. Gender standards harm everyone. Yeah, but they really harm women and they harm men, and they're really on full display. And Provo, and we had Heather Gay on who's one of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. She talked about being a strong, confident, larger.
Makenzie Benzi [01:04:00] Not confident.
John Dehlin [01:04:01] Yeah, just confident, larger woman at byu. She could. She's. Many people find her very beautiful. And she couldn't barely get a date her full time at BYU just because somehow BYU dudes didn't want confident, strong, you know, talented.
Makenzie Benzi [01:04:17] That reminds me, just at byu, I really felt like women were very aggressive, like they would all fight over the same guy. And I knew that I was never gonna be that girl. Like, if you're not interested in getting to know me, I'm not gonna stand in line to, like, beg you to date me. So I definitely had enough self respect in that way and enough confidence and that just. That didn't apparently work very well for these BYU Guys that were used to waving their badge of being an RM or you know, some, the ward clerk, which is like a high calling in the church and thought they could do to anyone. And I wasn't interested in people that thought that they were impressive for that. So yeah, I, I definitely felt like there, there were more women in my experience than men at BYU and so they could just kind of wait for women to flock to them and I wasn't gonna play that game. So. So I did not go on dates
John Dehlin [01:05:17] like all four years. Four, I assume four years?
Makenzie Benzi [01:05:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:05:22] Was that kind of sad and lonely or were you just like didn't need it. Found other things.
Makenzie Benzi [01:05:27] I'm really proud of myself cuz I, I didn't like sit at home and wallow. I had awesome friends that I would spend more time with when they had broken up with their boyfriend and I'm like great, I've been at home or doing these things. You can join me now finally. So I wasn't upset about it. But looking back I, I do feel really sad and even now like I'll ask Gerald, like why, why didn't boys like me like am I not cute enough or am I not funny enough or all these things and like I just didn't understand. So it definitely took a hit on my self confidence but I didn't feel it then. Like I still was confident enough to like who I was. And I've always, I've always liked who I was and I always thought I was funny and smart and. And I just, I really hit the ground running with school. I didn't waste my time with a lot of electives. I, I'm a very decisive person. So I knew that I wanted to be a speech pathologist my first semester before I even left. That's what I did. And I didn't change my major. And yeah, I mean I think that's, that is very much my personality is. I am very decisive and will act and so I kept myself busy and did productive things and didn't worry about it too much. Yeah, so I mean I would go, went on like a handful of dates but no one that I, that I was interested in, no one that I felt was really interested in me. It was just kind of like, yeah, we're doing this date, you want to come? So there was even my first, I think it was my second semester. I moved into an apartment with my friends and we were having a grand old time and meeting people and I had met this boy who was really cute and we were in a group and like, I was making him laugh and the whole group laugh, and we were having fun and kind of flirting, and I thought it was great. We had a great connection. And then he came to my door and asked out my roommate that he had never met before, but was tiny and blonde and cute. And I love her and she's my best friend, but I just was like, didn't we just chat for like three hours and have so much fun and talking?
Guest 2 [01:07:42] That was your first clue.
Makenzie Benzi [01:07:43] It really is. They're just. And I always got like, you were the funniest girl I know. Awesome. So you want to go date someone? Boring. Cool. All right. Just. Just checking. So, yeah, I mean, I just knew they. At the end of the day, I knew they weren't worth my time and didn't appreciate me, but it still sucked. Just like, okay, cool. I'll just be your. Your funny friend.
Guest 2 [01:08:11] This kind of reminds me of Hallie Evert's interview where she talked about. Did you watch that one?
Makenzie Benzi [01:08:15] I don't think so.
Guest 2 [01:08:16] Talked about going to byu and she had a really hard time struggling finding people to date. And it just. Yeah, it kind of reminds me that your whole life is conditioned to get married and then you go to byu and then you're just kinda like, here I am, okay? And nothing happened. And people got annoyed at her in her book because she wrote all about her journey in and out of the church and it was all about boys. People complained. She's like. Because that's all Mormonism was to me was like my relationship to God by getting married in the temple, you know? So, like, the reason why we talk about these things and it's interesting for me to bring up is like, I relate to a lot of the things you're talking about in your story. Because I was telling her, I was telling Makenzie at lunch that, like, all I thought about growing up was, what's my husband gonna look like? What are my kids gonna look like? I wasn't thinking about my own self actualization or, like, my own projects, but that actually is. It forces you to be, like, secure with yourself and not needing a man and realizing kind of like, oh, that's a letdown.
Makenzie Benzi [01:09:05] So it came to the point where I, like, I used to be a little sad that I didn't go on dates. And then I remember being at a. At a wedding reception of a friend and looking at them like, thank everyone for coming. And just. I was like, I don't see that happening for me. And that was okay. And it was kind of like this conversation with God where I was like, just let me know that that's not going to happen and I will accept it and I will move forward and I will have like a wonderful life without that. But otherwise I felt like I was doing something wrong again. It was like, if I'm not being given this reward of like dating or being married or anything, then what am I doing wrong? Am I not going to enough family home evenings or not fulfilling my calling or things like that. So again, I just always felt like that's something that's been promised to people that are righteous. I am righteous. And it's just not happening. And so as long as it's not my fault, and as long as it's just like that's God's journey for me to not get married, then I'd be fine. But I didn't want to feel like I had done something wrong. So it was fun times.
John Dehlin [01:10:13] That's hard.
Makenzie Benzi [01:10:13] But yeah, I'm grateful that I. That I really did have a good experience there. And it didn't bother me until like, looking back and kind of like when I go on campus now, I feel that anxiety a little bit and I feel. Still feel like a little rejected. And I'm angry that people are so shallow and didn't like me because I'm a fun person. But that's okay.
John Dehlin [01:10:36] I don't think. I don't. I wonder whether or not never Mormons can even understand what we just talked about fully. Because, yeah, you have to understand how, how emphasized marriage and families are and how byu, especially if you're from out of state, it's like your one shot at finding your eternal companion. Because if you then go get a job outside of Utah after you graduate, you may never be able to find a Mormon who you're compatible with again. So it's this massive pressure cooker. BYU is this massive meat market. Everybody's about the dating. It's almost. Dating is more important than education for many people, especially for women. And then to just be on the sidelines for four years and see all your friends get picked and you. Not for a lot of people that I think for my sister, she just got overweight and depressed and dropped out because I think it was so hard on her to be passed over.
Makenzie Benzi [01:11:30] Right.
John Dehlin [01:11:31] And so for me, your resilience, it's not shaming anyone that isn't able to be resilient. But for me, the fact that you kept a good attitude, had a as good of a time as you could look back on it as not a horrific Experience, to me, it's a tiny bit inspirational, the level of resilience that you. You showed.
Gerald Benzi [01:11:51] Thank you.
John Dehlin [01:11:51] Given the adversity that I imagine it was or felt like.
Makenzie Benzi [01:11:57] Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. I am proud of myself, and I am proud that I. That I didn't change myself to fit what I felt like they were looking
John Dehlin [01:12:06] for because someone develop eating disorders and color your hair and, you know, like, try and become docile, you know, And I accepted.
Makenzie Benzi [01:12:14] I knew that I was going to be me, and if nobody wanted that, then that's fine. I'll just continue being me.
John Dehlin [01:12:20] Yeah, that's. So I'm happy for you.
Makenzie Benzi [01:12:23] Thank you.
John Dehlin [01:12:24] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:12:24] Appreciate that. So, yeah, about a year into my time at BYU is when the mission age change occurred, and I knew immediately I wanted to go again. It's, like, very decisive. I felt like it was a big spiritual experience. So I put in my mission papers and I got called to upstate New York.
John Dehlin [01:12:52] Ooh, Joseph Smith. In Keith Ranieri territory.
Makenzie Benzi [01:12:56] I was in Keith Ranieri territory for sure. I served a lot of my time in Albany. And so looking back, I'm like, oh, my gosh, could I have knocked into some Nexium cult members? That would have been super interesting. Yeah. For the most part, it was not that exciting. I was really excited to get to serve in, like, a diverse place. And then I got upstate New York, and I was like, well, New York is still the melting pot of America. It'll be great. And then I got sent to, like, the richest, whitest area for the majority of my mission, and I was disappointed. It's okay. But prior to me leaving on my mission, I. I was asked to give a. They, like, highlighted three students in my ward that, you know, were serving a mission based on the age change. Those two men and me. And I gave a great talk. I'm really great at speaking. If I could continue writing talks with not going to church, I would do it because it's really fun for me, and I'm. I enjoy it, but I just got more attention from that. And they were like, people really want to hear from you. We're going to make you the Sunday school teacher. And. And so they put me into that because people liked my take on things and how I presented. So that was just, like, more fuel to my fire of, like, yes, people really excel in this domain. But I was. I got an opportunity to go be a nanny in Hollywood.
John Dehlin [01:14:35] So familiar.
Guest 2 [01:14:37] It does. Nobody asks us out on dates, and then we go be nannies. What happened next? Makenzie 2 left. Same person.
Makenzie Benzi [01:14:45] And I actually. And it was gonna be the perfect situation for me to save up enough money. It would mean that I would have to delay my mission or no, I just wouldn't be in school for that next semester. But I would go home and make enough money to support myself on my mission. And I met the family and they were really great. They had actually had a Mormon nanny before me. That's how they knew to hire more network with byu. And it was gonna be a great situation and I get to be in California and get to spend more time with my family. And before I left and you know, be living in Hollywood, which I would never do otherwise, and I leaving the family, I just immediately felt like it was a no. So that was probably one of my biggest spiritual experiences, I could say is I just felt like this overwhelming feeling that I shouldn't take it. So I went back to school and left on my mission in December of 2013, I believe. And yeah, I, I enjoyed the mission. How do you quantify the mission?
Gerald Benzi [01:16:03] I,
Makenzie Benzi [01:16:05] I really had a hard time with, with the patriarchy of the mission. That's where I, I'm definitely like, fueled my feminist backbone because just a lot of the elders that I engage with were very immature, very stuck up. At one point, a couple of elders actually walked out of general conference when they, whenever a woman would speak, they would physically leave the chapel because they didn't respect the women that a woman would speak, things like that. And I definitely learned very quickly just how it was they were still rewarded and how they took their positions of power and just went straight to their heads. So I had a really hard time with church organization at that time and with the patriarchy and with priesthood thinking that they were above women and that that was just reinforced. So that was, that was probably the first time that I really felt that way. And actually I, When I had first started byu, there was a, a family member of a really close friend in the first couple weeks that I went to her house and we were meeting her family and this older RM got my number from this friend and had started texting me and was being like very suggestive, very flirty and had literally asked me like, oh, so have you ever had sex before? What do you think that would be like?
John Dehlin [01:17:44] Like, this is a missionary.
Makenzie Benzi [01:17:46] Well, sorry, this was, this was my first couple weeks at byu. Okay, so. But he was an rm. He was old, much older. And I just, I, so I did have like a firm view of like, oh, RMS are not perfect. Which prior to that, I'm Sure. I thought that because being an RM was the most important thing you could be at BYU and as man. So I won't say that my belief of missionaries or returned missionaries was shattered, but I just saw how the church reinforced it and how it. It didn't matter how they treated other women. It didn't matter how they presented. Even in a mission where you're supposed to be this ideal person and very spiritual. And so that's where I started questioning authority and started questioning just the structure of the church and how there wasn't much revelation going on if you think that this person is a worthy individual that speaks and acts horrifically to women and is disrespectful to women and is then rewarded with positions of power and omission. So that was my first experience, really, seeing how the church reinforced those ideas. Yeah. So coming home from my mission, it was on my mission that I decided that I wanted to study abroad in Jerusalem because I wanted more spiritual experiences. And yeah, I really did that. It was horrifying to my mom. She thought I was going to die and reminded me that there were scriptures that said the prophet would be drug dead in Jerusalem, and what if I was there when that happened and just how unsafe I would be. But I went and that was that experience. Was. Is still is to one of this to this day, one of the best decisions I made. I really enjoyed my time at Jerusalem. I learned a lot about different religions and different people coming from all over the world to have these spiritual experiences. And it was the first time that I was like, wow, we really do not have a monopoly on the spirit and spiritual experiences. And people can be in these dark, dirty, dingy cathedrals that were nothing like, you know, the Mormon Church and still be feeling the spirit. And I can still be feeling the spirit. And who's to say that I am closer to God than this person who has traveled so far and spent so much money and so much time to. To come here and be where they felt Jesus had been. And I just admired all these different cultures. We really. We were taught by Israeli professors and by Muslim professors, and I. I loved it. And it really opened my eyes to just beyond my Mormonism bubble. And I just really saw how big the world was, and it just was so much. There was so much more. And just the scope of Mormonism was so small. And I just realized, like, how can this be the only valid form of worship, the only valid form of truth? Because these people were obviously feeling something. And that was interesting too, because not every student had that experience. And I remember specifically being taught about Muhammad in the religion of Islam and by an Islam, an Arab professor, and he was talking about Muhammad and how he. He was praying to know truth and received a vision of an angel and then took his pilgrimage and created followers to share the truth that he had. And, and students who. Specifically who. I won't. I won't name names. But we're like, so confounded by this idea and we're so offended and just like, how can this possibly be? And it's so funny because I'm like, that is exactly the story of Joseph Smith. Like, you believe the same exact story in a different context. And it was so limiting to me that even me as a returned missionary, I remember preach my gospel that was like, God has inspired many men and many people throughout history, and Muhammad was included and all these things. And I remember having conversations with them, you know, asking them, like, how why is this any different than Joseph Smith's story? And. But they're just like, well, if that was really true, then why wouldn't he introduce Mormonism to them?
John Dehlin [01:22:27] And why are you laughing, Gerald?
Gerald Benzi [01:22:30] Because she's. We come within the way. She told this story to me before.
Makenzie Benzi [01:22:36] Yell at people. I want them to listen to me.
Gerald Benzi [01:22:38] Not like yelling, but you hear like really aggressive points about, about them. Like not accepting Muhammad's story versus Joseph Smith's story.
Guest 2 [01:22:49] It's.
Gerald Benzi [01:22:50] Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I'm just like fascinated by her expressions of this story.
Makenzie Benzi [01:22:56] Just like, it's not a far jump. You know, it's not like a very difficult concept to understand. It's the same outline of a story.
John Dehlin [01:23:04] And no, Joseph Smith thought of himself as an American Muhammad.
Makenzie Benzi [01:23:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:09] He actually thought of himself as an.
Makenzie Benzi [01:23:12] Yeah, yeah. So he was making the parallel.
John Dehlin [01:23:15] He did. He literally did. Yeah, yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:23:18] Oh, that.
Gerald Benzi [01:23:21] Before you were like, when they said, why wouldn't they introduce monism? Like, why wouldn't Muhammad introduce mism to his followers if he was a true prophet? That's the fact that I was dying.
John Dehlin [01:23:39] If Muhammad had been a true prophet, he would have introduced Mormonism to me.
Gerald Benzi [01:23:43] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:23:44] That makes perfect sense.
Makenzie Benzi [01:23:45] I'm just like, if anything is good and leads people to do good, it's valid, it's true. That's what they needed at that time. Or that's what benefited them. Stories of goodness, you know, and anyway,
John Dehlin [01:24:02] so no, I really relate. I, I did. I. We didn't have enough money to send me to Jerusalem, so I didn't get to go study abroad. That's kind of what rich BYU kids do. And I'm not saying you were or weren't. I'm just saying that was my experience. But I did take an Arab Israeli conflict class as part of my political science international relations major, minor. And so I, I, I read about the Arab Israeli conflict and the ways the Jews can be super barbaric to Muslims and.
Makenzie Benzi [01:24:29] Right.
John Dehlin [01:24:29] And of course, I had already growing up in the 70s and 80s, I knew about like, terrorist bombings and how Muslims could sometimes engage in terrorism when I didn't understand it. So going to byu, it was Muslims bad, Jews good. And by taking the Arab Israeli class, a couple things to me also happened. I realized that my, that Muslims had a lot of good reasons for. I grew to understand why they would turn to terrorism, given the history of the territories in the Middle East. And I came to understand that the Jews, Israelis could be very brutal and inhumane to Arabs in the Gaza Strip or in the Golan Heights or in the West Bank. And so it shattered these stereotypes that I had and how I thought I saw the world one way and then I realized I was totally seeing the world in a bigoted way. And once you start reading about, like, real major global conflict and world events, Mormonism starts in Utah, starts to look a lot smaller.
Makenzie Benzi [01:25:30] Right. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:25:31] I think I'm relating to kind of maybe some of your intellectual and global awakenings.
Makenzie Benzi [01:25:36] Yeah. I mean, I realized that Jewish people had claim to a land based on their religion, based, you know, which doesn't hold weight.
John Dehlin [01:25:46] And Europeans imposed that on the Arabs who were living there at the time.
Makenzie Benzi [01:25:51] Right.
John Dehlin [01:25:51] It's like, oh, we feel sorry for the Jews. They got hurt in the Holocaust. Let's displace a bunch of Arabs and plop these. We don't want to deal with the Jews in Europe, so let's put them all back on their homeland so that we can assuage our guilt and shame.
Makenzie Benzi [01:26:06] Right. When Palestinians had been living there after the Jews were carried away by Babylon and then Palestinians moved in and they're like, no, we want to come back because God has promised us this land and we deserve it. And it's like Palestinians have been living here for decades and it's.
John Dehlin [01:26:21] Millennia.
Makenzie Benzi [01:26:22] Sorry.
John Dehlin [01:26:22] Yeah, over a millennia.
Makenzie Benzi [01:26:24] Yeah. And so it just the idea that your own religious conviction could supersede reality and like actual or other people's religious convictions.
John Dehlin [01:26:35] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:26:36] So that it really frustrated me. Um, and you know, you learn to see both sides. And I, and I can see how people that are that convicted feel a certain way. And yes, like, atrocities happened to Jewish people. But yeah, it. It complicated.
John Dehlin [01:26:53] But does one atrocity justify another? A second atrocity.
Makenzie Benzi [01:26:56] Right, right. It's just. So I definitely identified more with. With Muslims, and I understood their plight better than I would have ever. And I. But I loved people on both sides, and that's what I loved is. Is getting to actually know the people. And I will give the program that is that they really wanted us to. To develop relationships with people there and not just, you know, be obsessed with the land. So there was. There was a lot of things that I learned there, and I just became more progressive and more radicalized, ironically, from being in Jerusalem.
John Dehlin [01:27:37] Yeah, that's cool.
Makenzie Benzi [01:27:38] But, yeah, I really enjoyed it.
John Dehlin [01:27:41] Okay.
Makenzie Benzi [01:27:42] Oh, one more story about Jerusalem. I almost forgot that. So Elder Holland came there while I was there.
John Dehlin [01:27:48] He loves the Jerusalem center place, and
Makenzie Benzi [01:27:51] he held a conference with all of us. And I actually, he asked for questions and I raised my hand and I got to ask one question. And I had asked. Cause this has always confused me is we've been taught that, like, the ceiling power will hold families together. And even if you stray like that seal, ceiling power will pull them back. So I remember asking him, can you explain to me how this sealing power can supersede another person's agency? Like, if they're sinning. Right. So if a child is sinning but their parents are married in the temple, how does that make everything okay? How does that mean that they can then still be granted, like, the celestial kingdom? And he completely. I mean, he completely disregarded my question and changed it into like, oh, well, if you are. If you're sin, or if you're a good person, quote unquote. And if you're married in the temple, but your parents. But your parents were sinners, like, will you still be okay? Will the children still be okay? And like, that's not what I asked. And I. I thought. And I gave him that concession, like, maybe just someone else needed that question answered and the spirit was telling him to answer this question instead. But really I was. I had been very curious about that because agency had always been important to me. And I didn't understand how that played into part with like, the power of. Of a celestial marriage or the ceiling power and. And how that could overcompensate for someone else's agency that wasn't interested and wanted to act against that. Um, so I was. I was kind of annoyed.
John Dehlin [01:29:35] But that sounds like the kind of answer you didn't like when you were taking the discussions, Gerald, Is that right?
Gerald Benzi [01:29:40] Yes.
Makenzie Benzi [01:29:41] Great question. Let me Answer the question that I wish you had asked. But I was proud of myself for having that idea at least, and acknowledging that agency was an important part. And accountability. Accountability has been a big theme further on, but we'll talk about that later. So, yeah, that concluded my Jerusalem experience. It was really great.
Guest 2 [01:30:10] Did you want to talk about studying underneath Carrie Milstein, or should we say that for entertainment?
John Dehlin [01:30:18] You really did.
Makenzie Benzi [01:30:19] Yeah. He was my. He was my professor.
Guest 2 [01:30:22] The Egyptologist. Apologist.
Makenzie Benzi [01:30:25] Yes. And I. I don't have much to say except great guy, great family. But he had. He had said most Egyptologists that are Mormon end up leaving the church, but I didn't. So it just. And he was very proud of that. And that made him qualified according to the. The prophets and apostles. Like, they. He was their guy because he wouldn't leave the church. And so it definitely was. It sparked something in me where it's like, so if you're admitting that people who study the history of Egypt,
Guest 2 [01:31:08] it
Makenzie Benzi [01:31:08] does not coincide with the church, what is going on here? Um, I didn't study. I didn't look into it at that time because I still was kind of protecting my faith a little bit. But it came up later for sure.
John Dehlin [01:31:22] So you gave him a shelf item.
Makenzie Benzi [01:31:23] Yep, that lovely, lovely shelf. So, yeah, I wonder how people in
Guest 2 [01:31:29] the other scientific fields are doing. Like those studying evolutionary biology that are Mormon, how they're doing too. I Bet there's like 20 different fields of study, study we could list off and how they start versus how they end. But anyway, so from that point on, what happened next? You come back from Jerusalem and.
Makenzie Benzi [01:31:46] Yeah, so I. Pretty soon after Jerusalem was when I met Gerald and we were introduced because my old roommates. That is a great story. So the roommates I had left when I went to Jerusalem had filled my spot with another person and. And she was dating his friend. And this friend is also from Africa. He had come in when I wasn't there and said, do any of you know any girls that like black guys? Because my friend needs a date. And they referred me. So when I have. Which neither of us knew about, but I happened to be spending time with them later at some point. And he came home, he was dropping off that roommate and her boyfriend. So when they came in, the roommate and the boyfriend, all my friends were like, hey, this is the girl. He's like, oh, great. So I got this guy out in the car. You should go meet him. I'm like, I'm not going to go meet some random guy. Like, I had no idea where this was even coming from. They didn't even tell me what, what this is the girl meant. So they brought him inside. You want to tell that story? No.
Gerald Benzi [01:33:02] That's what happened on your end? On my end. I, I was dropping them off and his girlfriend went inside the apartment, so he was supposed to come with me. So I am waiting for him to come out, right? And then his girlfriend comes out and she said, hey, you've never met my roommate. Do you want to come in and say hi? Because I've been to their apartment several times, but I've never, like, got inside. I knew she stayed with a roommate, but I've never met her. So I am coming in thinking I'm just going to meet this one girl who is a roommate and say, hi, you know, I'm Gerald, the guy who always picks you up and drop you off every time, like, because I was, you know, kind of their driver at that time. So then I walk into the apartment and. How many were you? Six.
Makenzie Benzi [01:33:49] Probably.
Gerald Benzi [01:33:50] There were like six girls in that apartment. And then the moment they're walking and my friend is just like, okay, so this is the guy. Gerald, this is Caitlyn. This is so and so. This is Makenzie, this insurance. So say hi. Hi. So on Tuesday, we'll go on a double date, right? You and Makenzie, me and hey. And I was shocked because I did not know McKenzie at that point and I did not even know if my friend really knew her. So I was like, okay, cool, we can go on. On it about it. It's fine. Only after that, when I started asking my friends questions about McKenzie, I realized that he didn't even know who she was. He knew her name. He didn't even know where McKenzie was from. He didn't even know what she was studying and, you know, basic questions. So it was kind of like a blind date. The people who connected us did not know her, and she did not really know me. It was just like, oh, yeah, this guy is looking for a date. Which I wasn't really. I wasn't looking for a date. I joked about it when I was like, oh, my friend, like, you found, you found your. Your girlfriend. Maybe I should take along with you more. Maybe I'll find my own girlfriend, you know, something like that. But I didn't even know his story that she was looking to date or anything, which I wasn't. Yeah. And then like, they, they took us to a bowling alley, which she hates bowling. So bowling. That was a great first date.
Gerald and Makenzie Meet and Get Married
Makenzie Benzi [01:35:22] But yeah. So that takes us up to meeting. Do you have anything?
John Dehlin [01:35:28] Let's, I mean, let's take it, let's, let's maybe take it up for this part two. Let's take it up to the actual wedding. So, you know, one question I have is from your standpoint, McKinsey, he's not a member yet and he's African. And on the one hand, Mormonism has kind of a super racist heritage and past and it teaches explicitly that interracial marriage is bad. It does, right.
Makenzie Benzi [01:36:01] And at that time I wasn't aware of.
John Dehlin [01:36:03] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:36:04] Like I knew about the priesthood band, but I didn't realize further how much they had taught against like mixing blood or things like that.
John Dehlin [01:36:12] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:36:13] So yeah.
John Dehlin [01:36:13] And then, but then on the other hand, from your standpoint, growing up with a mom who was biracial and in a home that didn't intentionally didn't talk about that, you know, you thought, well, you know, people of color are great, my mom's great, I'm great, he's great. And you hadn't had a really. Had you graduated from BYU at this time or no. So you were still in your undergrad. Okay, so like.
Gerald Benzi [01:36:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:36:38] How. What was it like for you to contemplate A, actually dating someone, B, dating a non member, and C, dating a black man who is from Africa? What was that like?
Makenzie Benzi [01:36:49] Yeah, it's funny because I guess the question is, do you know a girl that likes black guys? I mean, how did that make you feel, by the way?
John Dehlin [01:36:59] Yeah, did that make you feel like
Makenzie Benzi [01:37:01] that's all the only qualification in dating someone?
Gerald Benzi [01:37:05] Not really. I mean, at this point I had interacted with other girls from BYU and I already kind of picked up on it. But the main thing I picked out about it was I was not in rm, which was a big thing to them. So the moment I would tell someone that I'm not a member, I even, I told you this. I was like the moment I, I was expecting you to go away the moment you realized, like I wasn't a member or anything. Because that's pretty much what happens before.
Makenzie Benzi [01:37:33] That's what girls would ask on your first day.
Gerald Benzi [01:37:34] They'll just ask me like, so are you a member? They don't say, no. Some girls will not ask, are you a member? They will say, so did you go on a mission? Then I'll be like, no. And then it will just be that that's the end of it. Right. So when they say that, I didn't think anything of it, you know, and also funny thing is, in that room, she was the only girl with who was brunette. Right. Everyone else was, like, blown. That's how I remember Makenzie. When I saw it the first time, I. I mean, outside of that room is I knew her hair was dark. So. Funny thing is, when they say that, in my mind, it was kind of like a funny thing that. Oh, okay, so this one different girl wants to date a black guy, and the fact that their roommate was also dating my friend was also black. So I thought maybe, you know, that girl put in a good way, you know, about, oh, yeah, these guys are great. And she was like, oh, maybe I want to go on it. I didn't think anything about it that is, like, you know, racial or anything. But after we started talking, that's when I realized, like, oh, wow. She was struggling with her identity, and she felt like she can relate more with, like, she wanted to relate more with, you know, black people because she felt like, okay, I. My mom is mixed, and I feel like I should relate to these people. So it kind of made sense in that. In that way. Like, oh, yeah, of course she would want to have, you know, people of color as your friends, too, versus just, you know, how BYU is. You walk with that canvas. You can tell, like, the majority of people there. So it didn't really mean anything at that moment to me. I was just like, oh, and you
Makenzie Benzi [01:39:13] had had experiences where maybe a girl was interested in you and had, like, a few dates, but then she said, oh, my parents wouldn't like, yeah, I
Gerald Benzi [01:39:21] had one really cool. I mean, girl was really open and honest with me, and she was. You. You would say, funny thing is she saved your mission in Zimbabwe. Anyway, so she. She. She would say things like that. It's like, yeah, I mean, you know, I. I know, like this. She didn't, like, really directly tell me, like, you know, people are kind of racially biased when it comes to this. She was just like, I don't know. Like, it's. Utah's not a very diverse place, and I don't. I don't see my parents being happy like that. I found, like, this one, you know, person of color in Utah, which I. I did appreciate the honesty. I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I get it. Like, people do that, but if you feel, like, uncomfortable that you date me, I mean, it's fine, right? But at that time, I did not realize how common or, like, how much this is taught in the church. I just thought, like, oh, my. This is just, like, racism 101. This is what people do, right? Like, they are coming from this place where this was not normal. So maybe that's what she is kind of talking about, only to realize later what that really meant, you know? But still, I was like, oh, I appreciate you, like, bringing that up. Yeah. If you say you're a great guy, but I don't. I don't want to go through this trouble where I have to explain to people why with this person, because that's how my family is like, you know, so that I was like, okay, it's fine. I'm not. I'm not gonna try to, you know, to push you into something or, like, try to explain why we should be together, even though, like, you're gonna feel uncomfortable around your own people about it.
Makenzie Benzi [01:40:57] Yeah. So, I mean, I. I had known that I was attracted to black men, and I did receive, like, attention from black boys growing up. So, I mean, I was always like, I wanted to marry a black guy, just. And even for myself, too, I didn't feel like I looked like my mom. I wanted to give my kids what I didn't have. Like, I'd always wished that I was darker. And. And later I. I realized how much of that culture I had been missing. And, I mean, during my. My later time at byu, pretty much around Jerusalem and. And for the couple years after, that's when I got more engaged with LGBTQ rights and really developed some nuance there and really didn't feel like the anti LGBTQ rhetoric was of God, and I didn't feel like it was fair. And I. It just became another shelf item. I. And still at that point, I hadn't quite, like, delved into the history of the blacks in the priesthood, but for me, I did feel like that was not true. That was not of God, and it was a mistake. So I understood that the church made mistakes, but I was still forgiving of it. So, like, developing some nuance there. I knew that. That I wanted my kids to experience all different kinds of churches just from my time in Jerusalem and learning truth from different areas and different ideas and just becoming more well rounded. I knew that I wanted to travel and give them that experience, to opening up their. Their world view. So. And that was still very much developing when I met you. When I met Gerald, and we didn't. We didn't date right away. We were friends for a couple years before we started dating. But we did spend a lot of time together. We got to know each other really well.
Gerald Benzi [01:43:07] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:43:08] And he was just very quiet and very shy. And I didn't get to know you as much as you got to know me. I Guess so, yeah.
Gerald Benzi [01:43:22] I was a good friend.
Makenzie Benzi [01:43:23] You are a good friend. You're a really good friend, and I appreciate that. And especially I always wanted to be friends with someone. I'm sure it's like the Jim and Pam story that I always thought I wanted, like from the Office.
John Dehlin [01:43:35] That's an office. Of course, Kara, for you, that's Office is a comedy show on tv.
Guest 2 [01:43:41] Oh, I'll look into it.
Makenzie Benzi [01:43:44] But I knew that it's real. It's really hard to just be friends with someone, especially like the Mormon community, because you're just. You're just meant to. The only valuable relationships are marriage relationships, and you should be working towards marriage. And so for. For me, getting to know him wasn't, is this a potential marriage situation? And do I need to be worried about his status in the church and being non member a member? I just knew that he was a really kind person and someone that I enjoyed talking to and learning about. And I loved learning about your culture and your home and your experiences. And you were just very curious and knew the Bible so well better than anybody I knew. And it was great to have those discussions and develop, I mean, more nuance and more understanding and more. More of a larger worldview. And at that time, I didn't. I didn't recognize how much I. I wanted a non white partner, but especially black and especially from a different culture where I could just learn more and have more. More diversity of thought and. But looking back, I realized just how. How important that was for me. And, and as we, as we progressed, there was a. There was a. Beyonce has come up a lot this podcast, but I was watching it's called Homecoming by Beyonce. And she performed at Coachella and she had like, she was just basically celebrating like historic historically black colleges. So they had all these dancers and marching bands and she was celebrating like African ancestry and black American culture. And it was just. Was such a celebration of black culture. And I loved it. And it really just hit me how much I didn't have that and how much my mom didn't have that and just felt that gap. And that's where I finally recognized, just as my identity in the church was changing, I felt a gap of where is. If I'm not. If I'm not identified as like a Mormon or a true believing Mormon, and I'm not fitting perfectly into that sphere by supporting LGBTQ people or becoming more nuanced with prophets and with personal revelation and all these things and not thinking that we have a monopoly on truth. So that was kind of Changing my relationship with the church. And that's where I felt like, oh, now who am I? Am I? Am I white? Am I. Do I have any, like, black culture that I can identify with or attach to? And I just felt like I didn't fit in either camp. And so just getting to know Gerald better and leading to us, like, actually dating and getting married, I just look back and I appreciate that so much about him because he understands that and can help me understand better, like, his culture and. And who I am. And he doesn't fit perfectly in the United States, just as we talked about, like, the black culture here, necessarily. And I don't either. And so it's just us creating now, like, our own identity and our own culture within our family. But so I. I do acknowledge that. Like, I didn't recognize everything that I was missing and everything I wanted from a black partner. I just was like, yeah, black people are cute, and historically, they've liked me. So that sounds great. And I'm in. I know I'm in the middle of Utah, but there has to be one, right? And I met a few actually black guys before that that were crazy.
Gerald Benzi [01:47:44] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:47:44] But we don't need to stereotype that. I finally was like, you know what? I think I'm just meant to marry a white guy. I think this is. This is God telling me it's not going to happen. And we were friends at that point.
Gerald Benzi [01:47:58] But yeah, and you tell me all those things, and that's. That's the beauty of our friendship.
Makenzie Benzi [01:48:04] I was the terrible girl that would complain about guys that treated me poorly to the nice guy that liked me.
John Dehlin [01:48:09] Oh, man.
Makenzie Benzi [01:48:10] And I feel
Gerald Benzi [01:48:13] you to ice cream or a movie or something.
Makenzie Benzi [01:48:15] And then I would literally be crying because I'm like, I know what I'm doing, and I know I need to stop complaining to you, and I'm sorry, and I won't do this anymore. And he's like, it's okay, but I will. You. You would always say, like, you know what you want and you don't want to date me, and that's fine. Like, I respect that you know what you want, and you were honest about it, and I'm happy to be your friend. And, like, I really admire that about Gerald is that he found value in our friendship and it was still valuable enough to spend time with me and to, like, form that relationship. Whereas at byu, all of my experience had been, I don't want to date you, so I'm not interested in you. And moving on, you know, like, there was no really friendship with guys, unless you could set them up or unless they could date you. Date you.
Gerald Benzi [01:49:02] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:49:02] So was a really good friend. And then it just kind of clicked. It was actually my other, like, big spiritual moment was just. I was in grad school and I. I moved to Salt Lake to go to the U for my grad program, and I decided that that was the time that I should probably find someone to marry. Like, it seemed like the perfect time. I was no longer going on a mission or going on a study abroad. I was in one place for a couple years, and I thought, Salt Lake is a little more diverse, so maybe I'll have a higher chance of finding someone. But Gerald had actually moved to Salt Lake, and during that time. Well, so I started grad school in August, and I had decided, you know what? I think I should just meet, like, my future husband by the end of the year. So I'll. I'll pray about that. And so I, like, had prayed about that. And I just said, and this is what I think, and let me know if you. If God agrees, you know. And I never got an answer back. But it was. It was literally like Christmas Eve. I was at home, and so it was nearing the end of the year, and I. We had been talking, and I just, like. It just kind of hit me like, I love this guy and he's a great person and I want to be with him. So I felt like that was an answer.
Guest 2 [01:50:20] Like.
Makenzie Benzi [01:50:21] Like I technically did decide I was going to marry you, but, I mean, it sounds so weird, and I can't explain that. And I think it's just me finding. Finally coming to terms with that.
Gerald Benzi [01:50:33] It makes sense because there was a period where we. I mean, when I moved to Salt Lake City, we kind of, like, lost touch a little bit. We're not talking as much as we used to. And then all of a sudden, when you went home for Christmas, we started talking on Snapchat or something, and then.
Makenzie Benzi [01:50:51] Snapchat love.
Gerald Benzi [01:50:52] Yeah. And then you found out that I was in SOL again. You were like, why didn't you tell me? Move to Seoul, you know, something like that. So we kind of. We did a lot of catch up that time. But I love your little sister's version. She's like, oh, do you remember that time? You just, like, came to me and you're like, I think I'm going to marry Gerald.
Guest 2 [01:51:14] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:51:14] I mean, another point of, like, being decisive. I was just like, oh, this guy really likes me. And I've now decided I'm in love with Him. And so, okay, so I'm going to marry him because I knew that you would marry me. But, I mean, there were moments before because you were very. You were very reserved and very shy and, like, didn't share about yourself a lot, so. But there were moments where, like, you stuck up for yourself at work. And I was like, oh, he's. He's got a backbone. Like you're pushing back. Because, I mean, I know me and I know that I like things my way and that I. I am very opinionated. And so I needed someone that was going to match that. I knew I didn't want to bulldoze you. I know. I didn't want to marry a doormat for your sake.
Gerald Benzi [01:51:55] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:51:55] And mine. So when you started, like, standing up for yourself more and being more opinionated and, like, opening up to me, I mean, it took a year and a half for you to. To open up and to share things about you. But, I mean, it was there. So I'm just grateful that we were able to be friends and build that friendship. Yeah. But then it was kind of a whirlwind for you. Out of the blue, I'm like, okay, so I like you and we can start dating. And he's just like, did someone die? Are you okay? What happened at home? It was not a good time for me. I was like, wait, so the one guy that's been in love with me for two years, I finally tell him we can date and he's like, I don't know. But it worked out. So we got married in the San Diego temple and. Yeah.
Guest 2 [01:52:50] Is there anything about your guys's temple experiences going through the endowment? Anything you want to share there? No, we can skip that if that's not relevant or important to your story either. But sometimes people like to talk.
Makenzie Benzi [01:52:59] We talked about it a little bit before I told him it was weird.
Gerald Benzi [01:53:05] Yeah, I was weirded out by garments. I did not really understand the full concept of Gammas and I. I've wasn't comfortable in them.
John Dehlin [01:53:17] And you're talking about the Mormon garments?
Gerald Benzi [01:53:20] Yes, I. I felt weird about them for a while, but I also realized that it's something that is very, very, very foreign to me. And I will probably will take a while to get used to it. So then I. I mean, again, I was like, believing that I'm. I'm going to come across why this is so okay. And then that did not last long because she became complaining about them before I even get around, like, getting used to them. And she was just like, I don't know, like, they're uncomfortable. And there's a lot of things that she was reading and sharing with me about.
Makenzie Benzi [01:54:05] I thought it wasn't fair how garments fit women differently versus men and how much harder it was for women to find clothes. I knew women of all different sizes, so, like, short, skinny girls could get away with, like, basically wearing, like, very short skirts and shirt and shorts. And then I had, like, bigger friends that just because they're bigger, people think, you know, the garment designers think that they're knees go down to their ankles. And, you know, it's just. So. It just wasn't. There was a discrepancy there, and it was frustrating. And. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And even after. And you went through the temple, actually before we were even married, so you went on your own. You wanted to do it on your own terms.
Gerald Benzi [01:54:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I. I did, yeah. Got in doubt. And then after. After that, that's when I could, like, you know, actually word them and kind of try to. To and, I don't know, get used to them. But I struggled a lot with that, you know, and just there was, like, a lot of symbolism, I guess, around them that I did not really understand. And then at that time, which is nice, because talking to you later on, you. You were telling me about the, you know, previous ceremonies or something like that, and that weighted me out.
Makenzie Benzi [01:55:27] We didn't learn about that till later. The change in the temple ceremony.
Gerald Benzi [01:55:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:55:32] So just.
John Dehlin [01:55:33] Gerald, I imagine maybe for both of you, for me, going through the temple was this weird shock of like, what church is this? This feels very culty. You know, I'm wondering what it would be like coming from Africa, if it'd be any different or the same or.
Gerald Benzi [01:55:48] Yeah, I did not really. I did not really grasp the concept of most of it. And funny thing is, I also had a problem with the wedding in the ceremony. And we had that conversation just after our wedding, and turns out Makenzie did not like that too. And I.
Makenzie Benzi [01:56:09] He had said, do. Do any women. Are any women bothered by the wording in the temple? And I was like, yeah, let's talk about why the. The temple wording is problematic as a woman. And so it was. And it was before the wording had changed. And so we had decided that, like, coveting to your husband was not. Was not what God prescribed.
Gerald Benzi [01:56:31] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:56:32] Or I feel.
Gerald Benzi [01:56:34] Yeah, that made that feel weird to me because I put my family in that picture where initially my mom was the one who was, you know, spiritual and my dad was, and my mom was like the Christian. And it just started not making any sense at all because it made it seem like we are not gonna get there, you know, closer to the Lord, unless if my mom is, you know, going through my dad. And that did not seem okay to me, but I did not know how to bring it up to her, you know, So I just like asking. I was like, is this a problem? And turns out she did not like it too. So.
John Dehlin [01:57:17] So let me make sure I understand. So you're saying that the Mormon Temple ceremony gives the impression that men and women kind of make it to the highest degree of heaven through the man?
Gerald Benzi [01:57:31] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:57:32] So if a wife is righteous but the husband isn't, that somehow that's possibly going to limit the wives and the children's progress, that it kind of like all funnels through the worthiness and the righteousness of the man. Is that the impression the Mormon Temple ceremony?
Gerald Benzi [01:57:48] Yeah, that's the exact impression he gave me. So I was wondering if she felt the same way. And it turns out that's how exactly she felt. Because I did not like the idea of me being in the middle of Heavenly Father and my wife and children, because if I'm slaking, well, they are doomed, you know, but it's not their. It's not their fault. It's my fault. So, yeah, that was one of the thing that really stood out to me. And I was glad that we were able to talk about that and kind of agree, like, okay, yeah, this is. This is not okay. And funny thing, wasn't it, like, two weeks afterwards when they changed it?
Makenzie Benzi [01:58:29] Yeah, we were like, oh, yeah. And it was almost like validating, like, oh, the prophets are following our personal revelation. So it wasn't even at that time, like, oh, this is problematic. The church isn't true. It was, oh, look, we reason this for ourselves and the Church is updating and changing, and so we're on the right track.
Gerald Benzi [01:58:49] Yeah, so.
Makenzie Benzi [01:58:51] So it's just funny. But, I mean, we were like, nuanced, like, we didn't wear them to bed. We didn't.
John Dehlin [01:58:56] What? Now that's just outrageous. I know.
Guest 2 [01:59:00] That's not even Mormon other underwear. You just.
John Dehlin [01:59:02] You're gonna lose your Mormon card.
Guest 2 [01:59:04] You said what? Nothing. Nothing. That's the right way to do it. You can't go to bed, depress sexually your whole life, and then make it to bed every night.
John Dehlin [01:59:12] You can't be Mormon and go to bed without your garments on. I am outraged.
Guest 2 [01:59:18] I would never.
Gerald Benzi [01:59:20] Yeah. It was an unspoken agreement. We just. We just, like, no wonder you left the church.
Makenzie Benzi [01:59:28] It's a slippery slope.
Guest 2 [01:59:30] I wonder how you guys are so in love.
Makenzie Benzi [01:59:34] That's true. That's what did it. But I mean, and there were other moments of nuance. Like, yeah, we. We had decided that we were gonna take our kids to all different kinds of churches. We were going to study other religions, other spiritual.
Gerald Benzi [01:59:52] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:59:52] Spirituality in general, spiritual leaders. And we had decided that, like, they were gonna be able to choose where they wanted to go. Like, Sundays became, you know, not a strict Mormon attendance. Like, each kid could choose how they wanted to spend that Sunday.
Gerald Benzi [02:00:13] Yeah, also that came up because, again, like, McKenzie shared how they were having scripture studies at home, you know, and we were in primary and we were teaching primary, and we both kind of feel like how those scripture studies were conducted wasn't, like, really, you know, grabbing the attention of kids, because it was just like, adults, you know, telling them what to do. And we know kids, they don't like
Makenzie Benzi [02:00:39] that, asking, guess what's in my head.
Gerald Benzi [02:00:41] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [02:00:41] Questions.
Gerald Benzi [02:00:41] So then I told her, like, yeah, the way in my family this conversation went is not. It's really like, the opposite. Like, we were asked what we were thinking and how do we understand something? And then my dad and my mom will chime in if, like, we are, you know, we are going astray in, like, interpreting something, you know, that is, like, if we are totally not getting it, versus, he. Here's what you should know. And I'm telling you so that you can believe this. In my case, I was like, yeah, I. I don't like that too. So maybe we can change that approach with our kids. Then we can ask them questions and have a conversation with them. So we had already agreed on that. Like, yeah, we also want them to know other religions. I don't want my kids growing up walking on the face of it saying, like, yeah, I only know about Mormonism and mommism is the true church. Because you sound like someone who is a very limited mind when you say something like that. Like, I've been in Utah. I never leave Utah. I've known about Mormonism only. And I was like, I don't like that. And I had made a co worker who was like that. And I was telling my canes. I was like, I met this guy who told me he's never left Utah. And it bugged me. I was like, how. How do you live in this world thinking, like, this is all there is in a country that is 50 states. Like, I don't understand that. Like, just go to Nevada. Just, you know, what I mean, this is like just see something different. And I had expressed that consent to her and she was like, oh yeah, for real. I wouldn't want my kids growing up with that, this limited.
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:15] I knew what travel had done for me. I knew it like, you are different culture had done for you. And so I. We wanted to have open minded, critically, critically thinking children that could be open minded, critically thinking adults. And that just it. And it took a lot because even deciding like, oh, if our kids have sex, like, how. How are we going to handle that? And I had a friend. Go ahead.
John Dehlin [02:02:39] Well, well, here's what, here's what I'm thinking. What's that? Why are you laughing here? Okay, go ahead.
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:48] I mean, I met a friend in grad school that she had said, my mom, you know, she came from active parents, active LDS parents. Her mom had said, I would prefer that you don't have sex, but if you do, I want you to come and tell me. I want to make sure that you're protected, that you are, that you understand that, how to make this decision. And I want to support you. And I was like, it blew my mind that like a Mormon mother could say that. And I was like, how? I don't know, I. But I adopted that and I knew and it was still like a chain. That was probably the biggest change that I had to kind of reconcile with, especially with like the shame that I had felt. Like, how do I grant that to my kids and honestly be okay with it? Because I still had thought it was this major sin my whole life. But it just finally, like we have a lot of parenting discussions, which is funny because we haven't even agreed like if and when we will have kids. But it's been really good for, I think, healing our own inner child and, and knowing just how to be, to be good parents and how we wish maybe we were parented and. But yeah, just ex, like finally coming to the conclusion that like being a good parent is supporting your child and becoming whoever they want to be and making sure they're safe and that they know that they're loved and that's it. And it's not, you know, and, and it even, I think before we were married it was like, what if my children left the church? Like, how would I react? And it's like, oh, are they still a good person? Do they treat people fairly? Are they honest? Do they contribute to society in a meaningful way? Cool. So if they're not Mormon, I'm over it, you know, and so it finally, like, it took the Pressure off of the idea of parenting. Like, I just know because I know how much stress my mom has gone through and family members when their children leave and, or when they're quote unquote, sinning, you know, and just, and like, my siblings are really good people. I'm really good. I'm a really good person. And so to, I don't know, it just, that just completely changed our, my parenting worldview and just not controlling, but supporting.
John Dehlin [02:05:09] So, so we're kind of. I think we're coming to the end of what I'm calling part two, because part three, we want to be about your marriage and your faith journey as a married couple. But let me end by just asking this question to both of you.
Makenzie Benzi [02:05:25] Okay?
John Dehlin [02:05:26] So as you decide, mackenzie, to enter into an interracial marriage with someone who is a recent convert, who didn't serve a mission and who is from Africa, I'm curious to hear what that meant to you as a woman who is raised Mormon.
Makenzie Benzi [02:05:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:05:44] And what that did and didn't mean. And then also. And then, Gerald, I want you to ask the same answer the same question. You had converted to Mormonism, but you still had your critical thinking mind. And you've married a American and you married a woman and a Mormon faithful woman. And you had had a weird temple experience and the garments were kind of weird. I'm also wanting to know what that marriage meant to you. And that'll be kind of the way we end part two, and it'll be a fun preview of what, what ends up happening as Kara leads us through your part three.
Makenzie Benzi [02:06:21] Awesome.
John Dehlin [02:06:22] So you go first, McKenzie.
Makenzie Benzi [02:06:23] Okay. Yeah. Even from the time I was a missionary, I was always, I was always upset that I wasn't a convert because I thought converts have such better experience and ability to connect with people in a way that I didn't. And they have a better worldview and a better sense of nuance. And I mean, I will say I gave myself, I give myself credit for being a missionary. I, I did not want to be a robot missionary. I wanted to keep my personality. And I did. And I felt like I connected with people in a way. So I really just had a respect for all walks of people and especially converts. So I knew that I, I wanted to marry someone who was a convert that had experiences before me and that had, that just was more open minded. And again, like, I don't think I would have called myself a feminist while I. In my early years at byu, but I definitely was. And I wanted someone that was, that was excited that I wanted a career and that was not expecting me to stay at home and just be a mom and respected me and, you know, and respected other women and wasn't going to follow the same patriarchal model. And I just thought that was kind of impossible to do unless they were a convert. So it was. I don't think I would have married a non member at that time, but. So that is one of the greatest, I guess blessings is that you did join the church. And I think that is a, definitely a benefit to our marriage because I don't know if I would have married a non number at that time. But you being a convert and being from another culture and having this, this wide worldview and adding to what I knew and complimenting it and challenging it was, was everything that I was looking for. I knew, I always knew that the person I was going to marry was going to be committed to progressing and to changing because that's life. And I didn't want to be stuck in the same position and I didn't want to ever feel like there was a challenge that we couldn't overcome, like being stuck. It was just a mindset to me and I wanted someone that was always going to be willing to, to change and to challenge. And that's what marriage meant to me, was someone who's committed to that and growing together.
John Dehlin [02:08:45] So marriage to Gerald, that's what.
Makenzie Benzi [02:08:46] Marriage, marriage in the marriage that I wanted.
John Dehlin [02:08:49] Yeah, that's good. I love it. Okay. All right, Gerald, what did, what did Mary McKenzie mean to you?
Gerald Benzi [02:08:56] Yeah, we, we had that in common, that I was looking for someone who is willing to grow with me because I understood that being a converter means you're on your path. So I wanted someone who was willing to walk that path with me because I was going to be growing, I was going to be learning new things. And I think I noticed one thing when I was talking to McKenzie, when I was like, oh, I think I really like it is when I mentioned this as if, like it was normal, but I realized it was not. I don't know what we're talking about, but I remember just saying I don't think I would do well with a housewife and a stay at home mom. Yeah. And she kind of lit up and she's like, tell me, why wouldn't that work for you? And I was like, here's the thing. As far as my mom became a housewife, she was always against the idea of, you know, someone who stays at home waiting for you to come back from work because she explained it to us that you cannot be the entire world to someone because it is a burden. So I've always not wanted the idea of having someone staying at home who does not. I mean, who, who sees me as their entire world because I'm gonna deal with my day at work and I'm going to come home to someone who was just waiting. You know, it's like a high energy puppy and you are tired.
John Dehlin [02:10:32] It's a lot of pressure.
Gerald Benzi [02:10:33] Exactly. It's a lot of. It's a lot of pressure. So I, I was like never for that. No, I mean it's fine. Ruby would do it. I didn't like put it as a bad thing. I was just like, for me, I don't think like that will work. And also.
John Dehlin [02:10:47] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [02:10:47] I think I just want to echo that. Like there's no. I don't have any bias against stay at home moms. I just. It's just the choice.
Gerald Benzi [02:10:55] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [02:10:56] Of choosing to be a stay at home mom and feeling like you have options. And I don't feel like the church really taught us that we have options. So.
Gerald Benzi [02:11:03] Yeah. So that's literally when I realized that. Oh yeah. Most. Most people in the church, like we taught just to stay at home and take care of the kids and the family, which is something she did not like. So I guess like for me marrying her, I saw an opportunity where I'm going to marry someone who is willing to be flexible enough with me and be. Be willing to work with me in this journey where I'm growing into this new lifestyle that I was adopting. So that what. That's what it meant to me. And it's funny enough, part of the reason why I felt like I can marry McKenzie is because my dad will always say you should marry your friend. And who else was my friend that I could marry that time that understood me at a level that most people who kind of dated me did not. And it was a. So the moment she. Yeah. She finally came around, I was like, oh, wow. I guess it's happening. Like this is the, this is the person I've been looking for.
John Dehlin [02:12:07] I mean, it's a non. Typical BYU story because you became good friends and knew each other for years before you got married. And it. BYU is famous for people meeting, getting engaged within a few weeks and getting married within a few months.
Makenzie Benzi [02:12:20] Right.
John Dehlin [02:12:20] You guys got to marry each other as close friends.
Makenzie Benzi [02:12:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:12:23] Yeah. One. One quick other final question, Gerald. What. What did it mean to you to marry a non African and a non. I mean, you are biracial. Yeah, but with really light skin. Did. Was that even something that occurred to you at all?
Gerald Benzi [02:12:38] It did, and I was.
John Dehlin [02:12:41] Was that a downside, an upside?
Gerald Benzi [02:12:43] Was it from personally? It was an upside. I was excited because I didn't. I was. I didn't picture myself being with someone who is not like, African, black woman, because I doubted myself that much as I don't know if I can be able to entertain someone else with a different cultural background. You know, I did not know how that relationship would go. But, yeah, marrying her, I was, like, super excited. I was like, wait a second, there is no way, like, I managed to convince her that, hey, I am funny and entertaining enough for you to be around me, you know? So I was, like, super excited. And I remember taking it to my bishop, and he said something along the lines like, oh, Gerald, I relate to you because you and me are the same people. We tend to date women who are out of our league. And I. I that feel like
Makenzie Benzi [02:13:42] a
John Dehlin [02:13:42] little bit of problem with that.
Gerald Benzi [02:13:44] I did have. I did feel weird by calling me out, but. But
John Dehlin [02:13:50] it just depends on what he meant, I guess. I hope there was no racial undertone to what he was saying.
Gerald Benzi [02:13:56] Yeah, me too, but. But, I mean, I didn't take it as anything racial, but I did realize, like, okay, she's an awesome person for real, like, you know, hands down. So the fact that this is a
Makenzie Benzi [02:14:09] really fun podcast for me that I
Gerald Benzi [02:14:11] manage, I managed, you know, to win it over. I was like, well, that's victory for sure. Because, you know, who would have thought, like, I would be here with someone as awesome as she is. That was, like, a victory.
John Dehlin [02:14:26] Oh, I love it.
Makenzie Benzi [02:14:27] Thanks, baby.
John Dehlin [02:14:28] Cute.
Gerald Benzi [02:14:28] You're welcome.
John Dehlin [02:14:30] All right, well, this has been so wonderful. You two are lovely, and it's so lovely to have you together. So this is going to conclude part two of our. Of our story with Geraldine McKenzie Benzi. And what we're going to do is just. We're going to. We're going to end part two and just immediately start part three. Kara is going to take the driver's seat.
Makenzie Benzi [02:14:50] Perfect.
John Dehlin [02:14:51] And she's going to bring us home because she's awesome and she was meant to lead part three. So, Kara, I'm excited to hand over the reins to you. Are you ready?
Guest 2 [02:15:02] I'm ready as I'll ever be. Don't really have a choice because I gotta hear this one way or another. I do hate having to sit in that seat, though. I wish there's a way to go.
John Dehlin [02:15:08] The lighting is just unacceptable.
Guest 2 [02:15:10] It is bright as the herons on it is so difficult. I like to be mysterious in the dark over here, but that's all right.
John Dehlin [02:15:17] Well, anyway, thanks for joining us for part two. You guys were lovely. And come right back for part three where we're going to learn about what it was like to be in a diverse interracial, multinational Mormon corporation,
Guest 2 [02:15:33] multinational marriage,
John Dehlin [02:15:34] what your faith journey has been like and. What's that?
Makenzie Benzi [02:15:38] I made a joke about multi level marketing, but we're listening.
Guest 2 [02:15:41] Go on, John. Sorry.
John Dehlin [02:15:43] And we're going to talk about what your faith journey has been. And just a little bit of spoiler. You guys have had to question and doubt and struggle with your faith. And so we're going to hear where that's led you and why. What, what kind of has led you to reconsider both of your. Your allegiances to the church and where that leaves you today.
Makenzie Benzi [02:16:05] All right, awesome.
John Dehlin [02:16:06] Thanks, guys. You're awesome.
Makenzie Benzi [02:16:07] Thank you.
John Dehlin [02:16:08] Thanks, Cara.
Makenzie Benzi [02:16:09] You're great.
Guest 2 [02:16:09] Thanks.
John Dehlin [02:16:10] All right, see you guys for part three. Come right back for part three. See you soon. Talk to you in just a sec.
Beginning to Question the Church
Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1528
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am not John de Lynn. Today, John and me and our guests have recorded a part one and part two, but he actually had to run. So I am jumping in the host chair and sitting down for this really amazing part three. Now with our guests, let's welcome back for our part three, Makenzie and Gerald.
Makenzie Benzi [00:00:25] Hi. We're so excited to have you. We have been just interviewing us all day. I've been like, I'm the host of this podcast. I am not.
John Dehlin [00:00:33] Well, we've had a really fun time all day talking about Gerald's upbringing in Zimbabwe, what led him to America, his journey into the Mormon Church, and then Makenzie's upbringing, her attending byu, not really having a lot of luck on the dating scene, things that she learned studying abroad in Jerusalem, and then eventually connecting with J. Gerald. Gerald and her meeting and their marriage in the San Diego Temple. So that's a really brief overview. But if you want to know more about their story, their upbringing, what led them to this point that we're going to start getting into, please go back and watch part one and part two. But in this part three, we are jumping into where they started to get a little bit more nuanced in their faith. And will you guys bring us back up to kind of where was your mind at right about this point? You were talking about, like, if you were gonna start having kids, the things that you'd want to be able to teach them, the environment you'd be raising them in. So go ahead and bring us up to where we're at right now in this part three, with your testimonies and your belief in the church.
Makenzie Benzi [00:01:31] Perfect. Yeah. So most of our nuance was developed around how we wanted to be the most effective parents, should we decide to be parents.
Gerald Benzi [00:01:40] Yep.
Makenzie Benzi [00:01:41] And actually, that's. That was a whole big struggle for us, even deciding if we wanted to have kids. And that was controversial in of itself. Um, especially with my family, who are so traditional, and my role as a Mormon woman has always been expected to be a mother and to have children. And so explaining to my mom that maybe I didn't want to have kids was pretty. It was disregarded. And it was like, of course you'll have kids. That's what you do, and you'll be great at it. And that's what we do as well as Mormons. And that's the plan of salvation, is to get married and have a kid. So have a few kids, never just one. So even my. My concerns about raising kids and and the desire to have them was disregarded, despite how difficult it is to be a parent and to raise kids. And the reality of that, and me growing up and knowing a good portion of how difficult it was watching my mom and being the oldest of five and participating and helping raise children and babysit them and be a good example and. And all the stresses that come with that. So it's funny that we are and were so concerned with how we would be good parents when we didn't even know if we wanted to be parents. But that Mormon upbringing was so integral to my identity that it still let us. It still led me to. To developing more nuance and to learning more about the psychology of. And human development of children and adulthood. And that. That and going to therapy and learning what healthy relationships look like and seeing how the church did not teach those healthy relationships, did not teach boundaries, did not teach inner knowing, did not teach valuing your autonomy. And knowing that if I should have kids one day, I wanted to teach them all those things and how it didn't align with what the church had taught me.
Gerald Benzi [00:03:53] So, yeah, And I think the other thing that initiated that conversation was, so, for me, after I got converted, I got a calling to teach in primary. That was the first calling I had. And then me and MacKenzie were also teaching in primary. And then there are certain things that we learned from our kids that we kind of problematic. And I started feeling like, I don't want to bring up my kids this way. Like, I don't want. Like, at one point, I had a kid who was telling me how he cannot play with his neighbor at home, but they go to the same school. They are doing. They are like, the neighbors were not members or something. And I remember telling mackenzie that, like, how do you feel about this? Because to me, it's weird that this little kid who is like, almost seven, he can pick up on that. Like, yeah, I mean, we have to do it. But it's also weird because we go to the same school, you know, And I think that's, like, part of why our conversation started, like, going towards kids, it's like, yeah, I mean, we observing these little things that kind of, you know, they are not going to translate into good adults. You know, it doesn't. If you're already living in an environment or if you're already being told, like, you can. You cannot hang out with people because they don't go to the same church as you or they don't have the same beliefs as you. It's not something. It's not an environment if we bring, we want to bring up our kids in. So I mean, just to add to what McKenzie said is public something that we also had kind of, I mean, come across and it kind of was bothering to us that it's a normal way of two other people bringing up kids, just like teaching them these unchrist like things in a church that you know is supposed to be the church of Jesus Christ. So that, that was bothering.
John Dehlin [00:06:00] So what kind of Jesus. Because everybody has their own spiritual experiences that tie them to their maker, that tie them to the best, most important parts of the gospel. Then you can kind of discount like the more cultural things or the problems that, you know, some dumb leader said this and this, or some kids said this about who they wouldn't play it or play with it, you know, in their school yard or whatever. What were your impressions of the, the type of God that you looked up to, that you worshiped within Mormonism? And how did that change your relationship with the church?
Makenzie Benzi [00:06:30] Yeah, that's a really great question. For me, it's. It started with something as simple as like getting a nose piercing. Like I was an active member, we were teaching in primary at that time. And that was something I'd wanted for a long time. Like back in high school, someone was like, you have a cute nose, you should get a piercing. And I had been teased for my nose growing up. I had been called Miss Piggy and things like that because of my nose. And so to hear someone like compliment it and tell me that it was like a cute part of me that I should accentuate was meaningful to me. It's, it sounds really simple and really petty, but I love that. But I never considered it because that's not what God wants or what the prophet had said. And, and I was so, I was so convinced that the prophet truly did speak for God. And so that rule of a single piercing in your ear was, was from God. And just as an adult in that situation, I just, I took like some time thinking about it and deciding if that was really something that was really important to God. And I was like, you know what? He doesn't care, really doesn't care. And that was just like such an empowering moment to me. And then it just, it finally pushed me to identifying my own inner knowing and really redefining my relationship with God and who I thought they were. And I just kind of like re evaluated all these other small things, like not watching rated R movies and
Gerald Benzi [00:08:11] I
Makenzie Benzi [00:08:12] don't know, like the strictness with the garments and things like that and the wording of the temple. And I just kind of thought back to like all of these things that prophets had been revealing or the rules that we had lived by. And I just was so over complicated. And it just, I realized that that's not who God was to me. And I realized that if I was to one day become a God like that, and that's what we teach in the church, is that the righteous people can one day become their own God. It's like, well, if I'm going to be like God one day, I'm not answering to another God. Like I am that person, right? And I will have to reason for myself and think for myself. And so it really, I mean, it strengthened my testimony of the church for a while and of God. Like, that improved my relationship with God so much because I was like, I'm doing what he wanted me to do. Like, I'm becoming like him and I'm learning how to make my own decisions as an adult and to reason for myself and find my own truth and like. And so some, some people could see that like, that physical nose piercing is like a sin and that I'm disregarding. But honestly, for me it was, it was such a testimony builder because I thought I was being more righteous by ignoring the small, petty things that really didn't matter and focusing on how I treated people. And my, if I was being honest, if I was serving, you know, if I was being charitable, the things that I felt like God really did care about. So for me, that was the catalyst of like completely reevaluating my relationship with God.
John Dehlin [00:09:53] Something as simple as a nose ring. Like, for me it was like a cup of coffee, you know, like reevaluating what really matters in life. But a lot of people will hear that and they'll hear somebody who was breaking the Mormon rules. And then it just led to a slippery slope of thinking that you know better than God and that you were out of the bounds. But it sounds like a lot of study and contemplation and prayer went into that decision or what. What gave you the confidence to even get the nose ring or to start down this path of your own, like self actualization.
Makenzie Benzi [00:10:23] Yeah, it's funny because I, I literally did study it. Like, I studied what President Hinckley had said about piercings and in the context and, and what exactly it was. And I, I just realized like how much energy I was spending on it and just how, how focusing on that would, would take me away from things that truly were more beneficial and more Consequential. So I mean, some people could just say, like, well, you could have just knock on a nose ring and still focused on the more important things. But for me, it was something that was taking up space in my mind and I just, I just like, does. What does God really care about? So even though I. Someone could argue with me and be like, just blame me for spending too much time on a nose ring, it was. That was the gateway to so many other things that I could sit and questioned and studied. And it. The church teaches that I can have personal revelation. And so I was just developing that own, my own skill for that. And that's more important than anything else.
John Dehlin [00:11:34] So
Makenzie Benzi [00:11:37] yeah, I mean, people will argue with me until whatever, and they can feel however they want to feel. But for me, it was developing that strength of personal revelation and, and developing my own inner knowing. And that translate translates to a lot, a lot of other things that are much more important than a nose ring. But it was brought about by the decision to get a nose ring. So yeah, that's reasonable.
John Dehlin [00:12:04] I really do. I like how you said the word gateway. Like we think of like gateway drugs, like gateway coffee and gateway nose rings, you know. So Gerald, as Makenzie is going through this, where kind of was your testimony? Did you have similar feelings, like you needed to process things differently, or were you guys on the same page or did you have catching up to do? Where were you at?
Gerald Benzi [00:12:23] Um, as far as my hair going through the piercing thing, I. I remember she asked me about it and how I felt about it. And I just said to me, it's not, it's not important how someone looks. And just like yesterday, I guess I was even telling, I was like, you know what? This reminds me about what Jesus said to the Pharisees when he was like, oh, you only care about the outside of the cup and not the inside. So you will clean the outside of the car, but you don't care about the inside. Which is very true, because seeing someone who is J or, or no spacing does not actually say anything about that person as a person. You're just like judging them because of the outward look, which is a very shallow thing to do. So I remember, hey, bringing that and asking me. I did not realize how big of a decision it was at that moment until he sort of was like going through that decision making process, but vocalizing it to me, you know, like, so I, I don't know how people are gonna feel. And this is how piercings have been, you know, how. This is how people have felt about piercings in the change and it just felt weird to me. And I just told you, I was like, hey, whatever decision you make, like, I will support you as long as it makes you happy. That's, that's what is, that's what is important. Because you are not, it's not. You are like you're adding a certain character, your personality that you did not have before. It's just a no string. It's not, it's not something like big. But at that moment, I am also alongside here I am struggling with how people in the church were treating non members. Because in my head, the type of, I mean, I would say the Jesus Christ that I believed, you know, I was expecting to see in the church. I mean, he loved everybody, right? And he did not isolate himself from other people. He was never like, I have the truth, so I'm just going to hang around other people who have the truth. Which was like a selfish thing for me to hear people say that, like, oh yeah, we only like hang out with moments. Only. Even the idea of moments coming to Utah, because Utah is where other moments are, you know, it makes life easier for them. It kind of goes against the idea that we have the truth. Because the only reason why Heavenly Father will give you the truth is for you to share it, right. With other people who do not know the truth. So if you are recruit, if you are like, are surrounding yourself with other people who know the truth, aren't you working against Heavenly Father's go of spreading the word? Because you're not spreading the world. You're surrounding yourself with people who, who already know the weight. You don't want to interact with other people who do not know the weight. So how are they going to know the weight? Right, because you are not interacting with them. You're not talking to them or something like that. So that was my first struggle ahead is why don't we talk to other people with a different. Like why don't we encourage that, not just the mission itself, but after the mission, what happens? You know, that's what, that's what I was sort of expecting to see. Maybe people are more like into interacting with non members and non believers. But it wasn't the case. Hence me being really disturbed by a child sharing an experience where they're like, yeah, I'm not allowed to play with so and so and ask why they don't go to church. Okay. And even Makenzie telling me that, yeah, sometimes people feel like if you interact with people who are not done moments, you will leave the church. And I was like, so if interacting with someone who doesn't have the truth will invalidate your truth, do you have the truth? You know, it kind of like seems like it's the other way around. So that was the other thing that I was struggling with. And then the third thing, I don't know if that was a second I can't remember, was how church members responded to social injustice. Like, you know, stories. And I think for us,
Makenzie Benzi [00:16:38] that's a whole can of worms.
Gerald Benzi [00:16:40] Yeah, we go in there, I guess.
Makenzie Benzi [00:16:44] Can I talk about my nose ring one more time? Yeah, I just forgot, like, that was important for me too, because the church that we were a part of already respected us so much. Like, we had given talks and they were like, that's so great. We want to hear from them again. And we were teaching their 7 year olds and they loved us in primary and so we were respected. Right. And I just thought, like, at the end of the day, wouldn't it be great for these kids to learn how to not judge someone they already like and their parents to not judge us? Like, are you really going to say that me getting a nose piercing invalidates that talk that I just gave? Or the testimony or like the lessons that we share with your kids every week that you respect and enjoy? And for me, I thought if they could learn to not judge me, then maybe they could learn to not judge other people that were being judged more harshly. Like, you could accept me, then that's. That's a stepping stone to not judging non members, to not judging members of the LGBTQ community. I just like, again, that is something so simple. But it just like offering learning opportunities for members to kind of just like accept nuance and difference and not be so judgmental. Yeah, but I liked your point. I know, like a big, A big struggle for you that you noticed was people not sharing. And also just like, that the prophet wasn't going into foreign lands to preach the word like they did in the Bible.
Gerald Benzi [00:18:17] Yeah. And the idea of him receiving revelation for other people were not members. And they would admit at the general conference, like, oh, it's not only moments who watch this. Pretty much everyone around the world watches this. But then the stuff they are sharing is kind of tailored to moments only. Like, I did not see that part of him receiving revelation for everybody else who was non Mormon. And I did not.
Makenzie Benzi [00:18:43] Like, not even in America.
Gerald Benzi [00:18:44] Like, yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:18:45] And yeah, they kept talking about American
Gerald Benzi [00:18:48] issues or American government and values that only exist here.
Makenzie Benzi [00:18:52] And I was a worldwide message.
Gerald Benzi [00:18:56] Exactly. So I had I had a problem with that. I'm like, you're portraying yourself as this person who represents everybody, yet that's not exactly what you're doing. Your talks are specifically about issues that are happening here. Right. Or issues that are happening in the church. And the other thing that I did not like about that was that certain things were being talked about at the General Conference, as if they are coming up with these new changes themselves. But then when you trace back, people have been complaining about the exact same things, specifically, like, oh, they are norm. There is not that many women speakers at the General Conference. And then the next one, you hear them portraying it as if, like, they just come up with it on the spot, like, is their thing. And like, no, people did complain about this. Like, don't make, don't portray it as if, like, you received some sort of revelation that when we did not know. Right. So it felt to me like the church is responding to mobs complaining and then trying to fashion it as if it's a revelation. And I did not like that at all. I was just like, I remember talking to my kids. I was like, this does not feel. This does not feel okay. Like, to listen to them say things like this and another social injustice system that, I mean, story that. I don't know how we go to this topic when we were talking about suicide deaths in Utah or something like that.
Makenzie Benzi [00:20:25] Yeah. With generally the lgbtq.
Gerald Benzi [00:20:28] Yeah, exactly. And the response that we got that, that next General Conference after we were talking about that, I did not like it. I think we, we were taking a vacation or something, and I was watching it on my phone. I don't know who it was.
Makenzie Benzi [00:20:44] So righteous. You're watching General Conference on your phone on vacation.
Gerald Benzi [00:20:47] I was in the back of the car we had. Your friend was driving. So I was just sitting there.
Makenzie Benzi [00:20:51] It's her fault.
Gerald Benzi [00:20:52] Yeah. And then I, I, I don't know. I can. I think it was Elder Oaks. I don't know who it was who kind of, like, responded to it, like, from kind of like a political point of view. And I was just like, why would you say that on this platform? Right. Which is really funny because after I remember telling you and Casey about that, I was like, did you hear what this guy said? Funny thing is, like, later on, the response from the church was like, oh, yeah, you know, they are, they are also men. They have their own views. They have their own political views or whatever, trying to distance themselves from me, from his talk. And I was like, but you also let him share that on your Platform though. So you cannot try to give him
Makenzie Benzi [00:21:42] the calling and authority to do that and said that they'll never lead you astray. So which one is.
Gerald Benzi [00:21:47] Yeah, so rather than you addressing the problem that he is bringing these ideologies. Because if you are saying everyone is listening to you on general conference and they are listening for revelation and you know what I mean, things that you are receiving for us from Heavenly Father and this is what we hear, why would you let that kind of like, you know, tarnish your message or, you know, kind of distort what we were talking about? Because anyway, everybody else who was around the world did not really understand what that was about. Right. Like, it's something that was specific. He was responding specifically to something that was happening here. And people complaining about how those. That death rate is increasing. And here he is saying like, oh yeah, we still, like, we are still just gonna stick to our guns. We don't, like, we're not gonna budge to you guys complaining about it. And how is that not something the church is agreeing with?
Makenzie Benzi [00:22:47] So that's something that God or Jesus would teach. Yeah, that's exactly opposite of what Jesus teaches. And I just think like, the more and more we listened to.
Gerald Benzi [00:22:58] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:22:58] And learned and experienced the church, the more it was so opposite of the Jesus that had been taught in the Bible. Like his very words, his very nature was standing up for the poor and the needy and the outcast and sitting with the sinners and not judging them and being charitable. Like he came down and he called out the, the, the church members essentially and was like, no, you're the ones that are being self righteous and you're not doing what you preach. And so we already had that, that frustration and that, that discord between like, I felt like the Mormon church was following a different Jesus and their Jesus was the Republican Party there. Jesus was obsessed with capitalism and didn't and would profess love, but not actually save children's lives and didn't accept the LGBTQ community. And I mean, what else? How can we. It just was so opposite of any evidence of Jesus or anything that Jesus actually was.
Gerald Benzi [00:24:15] And it was so it wasn't Christ. Like in the sense that the idea of someone disowning their child because of what they love was just so disturbing. I, I couldn't grasp that concept because I remember asking MacKenzie, I was like, if our child come comes out as gay, like what, what are you, what are you going to do? Like, what are we going to do about it? Right? And I do not understand how you can reach a point where you say, I'm going to disassociate my. I mean, I'm going to distance myself from my own child because they are not conforming to this doctrine or whatever it is that really does not say anything about them as a person. And I couldn't know. I could not really, like, understand how that's Christ. Like. And then Makenzie, I think you shared a video of. I can't remember his name. He was on Ellen and he's ex Momon, and he was talking about that, too, how it happened to him. Like, yeah, this is real. You have those thoughts because imagine being brought up in this community that everyone, like, is kind of accepted based on. On these, like, marriage that we have agreed. And all of a sudden your own family does not want you because of that one single thing that you just come out as gay. And he's like, yeah, I did have suicide thoughts. I experienced that. And it was just, like, heartbreaking to see people literally, like, bashing him and be like, that's not true. That's not how it happens. I'm like, how do you know? Like, how. How is that Christ? Like, like, telling someone's like, no, your experience. Let me explain it to you how your experience happened. Don't say that because you are trying to give the church a bad name. I. So that, I guess, like, that was like a cascade of events also leading to George Floyd or something.
Makenzie Benzi [00:26:23] I think that, like, our view of the church and our position in the church was no longer, like, how are we benefiting from the church? But how can we just create a better environment for people that we loved and supported, that were outcast and being taught misogynistic, sexist, anti LGBTQ things while
John Dehlin [00:26:45] still being, like, a literal believers in the church still. Right? Like, yeah, maybe a little bit more nuanced.
Makenzie Benzi [00:26:51] Yeah. Like, we disagreed with, like, the policy requiring, like, children of gay parents to. Yeah, so we. We didn't. We disagreed with that. Disagreed with the gender roles. Didn't think that was inspired. Like, we definitely acknowledge that, like, prophets are making real mistakes and are not actually leading the church.
Gerald Benzi [00:27:24] Like, as God would near us, like their own. Their own. I mean, I don't know if I can call it like, they are. They are imposing their own opinions on us, but the fact that they are in that position, we would take it as, you know, oh, maybe it's revelation. Maybe it's a good doctrine when it's not. And also the idea that they would not own up to their mistakes, you know, a mistake is A mistake when you own updated like hey, we admit like this was bad. Right. So we are changing stuff from going here onwards but pretending like, oh, it's somebody else fault, it's God's fault specifically,
Makenzie Benzi [00:28:02] like they've never done anything wrong. It's only God got to get thrown
John Dehlin [00:28:05] under the bus and it's usually God.
Makenzie Benzi [00:28:06] Exactly. So yeah, I mean we still were attending church but it was more like how can we make this a better environment for children growing up and hopefully elicit change. But at some point, I mean we just realized that, that it wasn't. If it was the true church then it would be moving faster, it would be leading the changes instead of like dragging behind after members had begged and pleaded and protested against it. But I mean, I guess we didn't really. Not enough to leave.
Gerald Benzi [00:28:41] Yeah, at that point. Yeah, we still did not leave. We were still hoping, okay, maybe if
Makenzie Benzi [00:28:46] they are, they'll catch up.
Gerald Benzi [00:28:47] If they will. If they are.
Makenzie Benzi [00:28:49] If there are nothing else in the church.
Gerald Benzi [00:28:50] Yeah, maybe we are going to get to a point where they will finally like are caught up and then now they are thinking of changes that will actually make our change feel like, oh, this is like a Christ like environment where everybody is welcome. You're not going to be profiled, you're not going to, you know, you know, everyone is just going to treat you like you are equal. So we still had that hope at
Makenzie Benzi [00:29:14] this point and we were prioritizing our own revelation or our own inner knowing above what a prophet said. Like we weren't taking it for face value anymore.
Gerald Benzi [00:29:24] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:29:25] Which I think if a lot of Mormons did that, it'd be a healthier church. It's the adherence to the orthodoxy that, you know, creates a lot of dogmatic authoritarian systems that I know people within the church and with their political values they say they don't like, but within the church they really hold on to the orthodoxy of, you know, two genders, man. Like Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, just all these really hard line ideas about sexuality and various other ideas. But when you, yeah. Add more progressive values into it, it's just a matter of time before you find yourself trying to figure out how you're supposed to be in one world and the other at the same time.
Makenzie Benzi [00:30:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:04] So is that kind of your experience?
Makenzie Benzi [00:30:05] Yeah, exactly. At that point prophets were like well intentioned people, but not, not necessarily being led by God or by Jesus. And there was a huge disconnect there until. So we were kind of like coasting along trying to figure out exactly where, where we would land in the church when May 2020 rolled around.
Gerald Benzi [00:30:34] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:30:34] And for me, so after George Floyd was murdered, I saw so much blatant racism and victim blaming from people in my homeward. People that knew my mom as a black woman and loved her and were friends with her, they knew me. Some of them had been in the temple with me, knew my husband, people that I really loved and respected, like my whole life. Just publicly posting like the most horrendous
John Dehlin [00:31:08] things, like blatantly racist.
Makenzie Benzi [00:31:10] Yeah. Like only George Floyd had come from a better family with better family values than he wouldn't have. He wouldn't have been a criminal and been in this situation to have been married, like murdered. Like, sure, it's really sad, but what could he have done to have prevented that? And if only he had the, the family values that the church prescribes and people just need Jesus and that solves everything. And it was horrendous. I mean, just putting themselves up and thinking that if only he was Mormon or had Mormon values that that would have prevented someone from murdering him. And it's just ironic because that same person who had posted that had some serious problems in their own marriage and I mean, like their own spouse breaking the law and endangering other people's lives. And so it was so ironic to be like, touting your family life. That's so much better. When it was just was a hypocritical situation. And I just was so angry and I was like, engaging with these people online and people in the church, friends, like family members that just had no empathy and were blaming, just victim blaming, and it was just horrible or blaming black culture for creating this person that would break the law and, and that they kind of deserved it. And I just, I knew in that moment, well, and even a response from a, from another member was, the world just needs Jesus. And like, that was their solution. And I'm like, but you realize that Jesus would 100% be on the side of the minorities, of the oppressed, of the victims, and would not be sitting here judging someone and bashing someone who was dead. And it just, like that just solidified that, like, the Jesus that I worshiped was not at all the Jesus that the church praised. And, and I said that to this person. I just was like, I'm sorry, didn't Jesus come to, like, overthrow the tyrannical government? I mean, to, to talk about how, how unfair it was being and to, to call out the members and to defend those that needed help. And she was like, no, Jesus came to die for us. Like, yeah, but what did he do for the 34 years before that? I mean, it was constantly teaching and calling out people and supporting women and supporting sinners and everything. So it just. I was. I was so angry engaging with these people. And I was angry that I was angry because I knew I was right and I knew I had the charitable view and the loving view and the view that was taught of Jesus in the Bible, and yet people were utilizing Jesus to say that that was justified. And I just knew that, like, I would never. I knew in that moment I would never raise black children in the church. And that was like. That gave me permission for myself to, like, then look into the CES letter and to look into all the truth claims of the church. And before we get into that, can
John Dehlin [00:35:01] I ask one quick question? Because I hear people, maybe that are believers listening. And I used to believe that too. You know, you can. People go on mission trips. People do all kinds of things because they don't need to actually know the root cause of the problems that people are facing. They just need the gospel. They need Jesus. So in your own words, why doesn't somebody who had, you know, faced the police brutality that George Floyd did or various other people who have been victims of different systems in America? So let's take George Floyd, for instance. Why, in your words, does him not being Mormon and everyone not being Mormon make the world okay again? Does that make sense?
Makenzie Benzi [00:35:47] Yeah, I mean, Jesus is not here. Jesus could not save him. And Jesus in that, in that view operates through people. Right. So you saying, oh, he just needed Jesus is so oversimplified and so beside the point, because what he needed was people that did not profile him, that did not blame him, or shoot and ask questions and then ask questions. Right. And he's not the first one that this has happened to. There's been a. A long, long history of, of racism and profiling and unfair brutality and, and much of that has been justified through Christianity. I mean, slavery was a Christian concept. And so it's just, it's so silly to me that someone can just think that the idea of Jesus can just solve that when humans, imperfect and also just straight up evil humans have been using Jesus to justify terrible things in the world. Some. That's. I don't know. Did that answer your question?
John Dehlin [00:37:03] Yeah, yeah. Just where my go, my mind goes to the same things and reasons too, that Jesus would have to work through people. And people exist in systems that are faced with various ways that people can have the Higher ups and the lower downs, that can be just a hotbed for problems and oppression. And unless we actually say, what would Jesus want us? What kind of work would he want us to get to get done within this system? Or else we're never going to have anything to come to fruition. And it's usually people who are agitators, in my opinion. People like Mormon stories, podcast or. Yeah, I just want to say, put that out there. Just people who shout out. Yeah, just like a shout out to this whole organization got going on here. Just people coming on and telling their stories of ways that they were oppressed. Whether it was a, you know, sexual abuse, cover up or anything where we're saying, all right, I know Jesus wouldn't like this, so how can we get to work to better this system that is supposed to be serving people?
Makenzie Benzi [00:37:55] And still, if you're saying, oh, that man needs Jesus or the world needs Jesus to avoid this, you're still, that means that you yourself are not willing to do the work. That or like waiting for the second coming. And that was essentially her point was just like, oh man, we just need the second coming to come. I'm like, no, we need to be better now. We can't be waiting for this imaginary time that you yourself don't know when it's going to happen.
Gerald Benzi [00:38:20] Yeah. But also like, how, how entitled are you to think that, hey, if the second coming happened right now, I will be on the right side with Jesus and we'll be fixing oil.
Makenzie Benzi [00:38:31] You actually don't, I don't think you'd be very happy with you.
John Dehlin [00:38:34] You have a temple recommend in your wallet. That's how you know you're good. Did you guys do that? You're like, no matter what, I'm fine.
Makenzie Benzi [00:38:41] Angels. It's just. And just the fact that that person can wait for that. Right? Like, oh, we'll just keep waiting for the second coming because that's the only thing that can solve it. And it's like, actually, no. People standing up for what is right is what the world needs right now. We can't. And you might be able to sit there in your home as a white person with privilege and just be like, yeah, I'm just happy to wait until Jesus comes while other people are dying in the streets. And it's just very, very selfish and very unfair and very oversimplified.
Gerald Benzi [00:39:18] And for me to see church members arguing that, it just, I just realized how detached from reality most people are is there are certain things that are not like, Jesus problems. Right. Like, we are agreeing to certain laws that are disadvantaging other people. We can change that. Like, we don't need Jesus for that. We can just change that. Like, hey, let's not have this law because it's disadvantaging other people. But so the response of everyone running to be like, you need Jesus. You need to pray about it. It's just like, well, I'm comfortable where I am. Maybe pray about it. Your situation is going to change. But you are talking to the exact same person. You can change their situation by just be like, hey, can we agree that this law is not okay? Can we agree that, you know, the rules and regulations we have in place right now is profiling minorities. Like, Jesus does not need to come down and tell us that. He already. He. Even in his face the first time he was here, people tried to make him answer political questions. You know, like, that happened. So we know how that's gonna go. If he was here and you are asking him about that, we know how he's gonna go already because we have asked him about text questions, right? And his response was like, hey, you guys, you can fix this. Like, deal with Caesar. You know what I mean? Talk to him. He's the guy. Talk to him about taxes. You can change because it's a law. We agree, like, as people, he. He did not, like, come down and be like, oh, yeah, taxis are going to be 20%. No, that's not him. It's us who agree about those things. Right? So to see people responding to things like that, with putting him in that place and be like, oh, hey, there's nothing we can do. Our hands are tied when you know they are not. Right.
John Dehlin [00:41:00] Right.
Gerald Benzi [00:41:00] You can just. We. You can just like, advocate for. For people to be nicer to each other, for people to be good to each other, and let's not enforce laws. We know that they are not Christ. Like, right. So that's the only, like, little thing I wanted to see in people. Just be like, well, this is horrible. We have seen this several times, and every time it happens, there is a group of people that are crying. There's a group of people that are in pain. As a Christian, I am bothered seeing other people in pain, seeing other people struggling. Right? With certain things, I can change the same way. They. They say, oh, yeah, you know, it's not. When judgment day comes, when you saw a hungry person by the side of the street, that's what Jesus is going to ask you. You saw me hungry and you didn't feed me. That's the exact same thing, Right. You saw me getting profiled and you decide to look away and you said, oh, yeah, Jesus is going to come. But so that was like, really ironic to me that, like, these are the same people who tell you that when it comes to problems they care about. Right. They will tell you, like, oh, yeah, we want to solve wood hunger, donate to this whatever food bank or whatever, and then they'll publish and they will try to make you feel bad if you don't participate in that specific problem. Because to them, that's what they view as the Christ like problem. Right? And when it comes to another problem that does not affect them, they. They will be just like, pray about it or let's wait for Jesus to come back. He will fix it. So that's what bugged me in that situation was like, okay, so there's no compassion or empathy.
Makenzie Benzi [00:42:37] Like, your first response is just if
Gerald Benzi [00:42:39] you cannot empathize that it happened before,
Makenzie Benzi [00:42:42] judging why it shouldn't have happened.
Gerald Benzi [00:42:43] Exactly. Rather than getting to the bottom of. Of the issue and address the problem. That's your response. So me, like, being a black person, I was just like, okay, if I find myself in a position where I encounter someone who is racist against me, are you gonna immediately go into my past rather than, you know, kind of helping me and be like, let's see what kind of a person Gerard was despite whatever happened in this situation? Let's see. Oh, he said a bad way to his wife. He was not Christ. Like, you know, so that's how I felt, was like, oh, if we have kids and they're gonna grow up around these people, they are in danger because no one is willing to help them. Because already they've shown us that they are kind of biased to people who look like me because they. They already anticipate these problems with you. So if you get profiled, if you die on the street, you probably deserved it. So that was a. I don't know. That was really difficult for me to deal with, specifically seeing members responding like that. Other people, I pretty much did not really care what they said because I knew that certain people are responding from a political point of view or they feel like, you know, it's gonna cause unrest. And some of them, they have members who work in the law enforcement. I did not. I also feel like, yeah, this situation is creating danger for everybody. Right. I don't want people to go after good cops. I don't want people to feel like, yeah, everybody, this is what every copy is like. But I wanted people to recognize that the system itself is not perfect. Right. So at least let's admit that. Right. And specifically from people who claim to be Christ, like a little bit of empathy will be okay in, in a situation like that, which.
Makenzie Benzi [00:44:36] And I don't need to agree with someone to just acknowledge their pain.
Gerald Benzi [00:44:40] Yeah. And we did not get that. So I started questioning a lot of how much of what we are doing is actually Christlike and how much of it is just our opinion, our environment, you know, in our political bias in most cases.
John Dehlin [00:44:58] Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. And that's like a really, I think, invaluable perspective for our audience that we don't usually get people talking about, you know, summer 2020 and all of the crap show that went down. So thank you guys for your perspective on that and I think you're right on, on a lot of those things. But it just kind of made me think too, mackenzie, you said earlier that, you know, like slavery was a Christian idea and all I'll say to that is I think it's like, you know, kind of a universal idea with a lot of. And you can justify it in the Christian Bible, but then also when it was abolished, people could abolish it by justifying it with the cherry picked versions of the good kind of Christ, you know? Right, right. And I think that that sentiment also plays out in Mormonism, that you can find the most beautiful parts of Mormonism about your personal revelation, your divinity, your ability to be God, to find the best parts of Christ that you connect with that make you a better person. But if you're not in a community where other people value that same thing, you're going to be, you know, rowing upstream forever and you don't want to do that to your kids that you're going to be, you know, raising a potential family in a church system that you might have been able to sounds like, you know, garnish some, some good things out of, but you don't know what environment that's going to be like for your kids.
Makenzie Benzi [00:46:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:09] Is that kind of what. Oh, exactly to that point, I,
Makenzie Benzi [00:46:14] and what had planted that idea before too had just been I. One of my co workers, he's Hispanic and his wife is black and he's a, he's a member and he had told me we raised our kids here in Utah and we have. My wife has never seen more racism than here in Utah and just the way that they were.
John Dehlin [00:46:42] That's heartbreaking.
Makenzie Benzi [00:46:43] Kids were treated.
John Dehlin [00:46:44] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:46:44] And, and I have other friends that are, that are mixed race. As well that have their, they were not allowed to date white people and had been called the N word by people in their own ward. And, and I mean, and especially that co worker like they, they were from the south, you know, they've experienced racism. And to say that it was worse here in Utah. Just really opened my eyes to the reality of it. And, and delving into the history, it was like, yeah, you are not admitting that the priesthood ban was racist. And it was. And it, and the more I read about it, the more I realized like that they had specifically advocated against civil rights. They did not support the civil rights movement and had said that, you know, if we give civil rights to them then they're going to mix with, then black people will mix with white people and we can't have that. And so for apologists now to be saying, oh well, you know, we don't understand the priesthood ban and it didn't sound right, but God did it and we don't know why that's not true. We know exactly why they did it. And we had the, you know, the Mormon doctrine by Bruce Emmerkonki saying that people in the black people in the pre existence were less valiant and that they had the curse of Cain. And, and so it would be one thing if the church was accountable to that and admitted that was racist, that was wrong. We apologize, we don't feel that way. That was not of God. That would be, that would cause more consideration, you know, and be like, okay, you're owning up to it, you're admitting and we can move forward. But they don't. And they've specifically said we do not make apologies. And the, the complete hypocrisy of that when you are demanding that I make changes every week, that I repent, that I make amends. And part of repentance is owning up and apologizing to people you've harmed. But the church itself doesn't do that. Christ's church, the, the most perfect church in the world. That was just bullshit to me. Like I was like, how can you tell me you won't repent, but you're expecting me to. And it's, it's embarrassing for me that it took that long for me to see it. But it is what it is and I can't change it. And I just, it broke my heart because I, I had given so much of my life to the church and, and the security that you feel, feeling like you do have the truth. And I knew that that would, that decision to leave would change my relationships with My family forever. And I love my parents. I had a great relationship with them. And it's never going to be the same. I hope one day maybe. But it just. It changed my worldview. It changed, like, the security that I thought I had, how I thought I was going to raise my kids. Yeah.
Deconstruction, the CES Letter, and Leaving the Church
John Dehlin [00:50:18] So there's something that you, like, it sounds like you had license that you felt like things are not feeling right to raise your kids in and you needed to, like, address more of the truth claims head on. Was there a night that you, like, read a book or did some googling or some searching or did it come slower than that?
Makenzie Benzi [00:50:34] Yeah. So, I mean, again, like, I've been a pretty decisive person. So I mean, immediately, pretty much after having like a few days of these conversations with. With these ward members that I knew and loved, it was pretty immediate. Like, I remember telling Gerald, like, I'm. I'm out. Like, I'm not. I'm not gonna stay here. There's nothing I can do to improve these people's mindset, which was heartbreaking. But I mean, more than that, it wasn't. It wasn't. I can't change them. It was. I'm not going to put my kids in that situation. I'm not going to put black kids into a church that it is normal for them to not empathize with them and to victim blame or not acknowledge its history. And I just kind of thought, like, well, of course you're not gonna side with them or empathize with them. You haven't addressed your own racist past. And so, I mean, it just made sense in that moment that that that was never going to change and that I couldn't take that gamble that we would be in a. In a more nuanced ward that would be supportive to the plight of. Of black people in America. So.
John Dehlin [00:52:00] Been so heartbreaking on like five different levels times a couple, like falling out of love and relationship with the church and the ward members that I'm sure you loved. And just think we all, you know, we all had to grow up that through Covid. Through everything. And we saw the world with a different lens for the first time. Some of us, others of us, not so much, but. Sounds like you had like a real intense awakening.
Makenzie Benzi [00:52:25] Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's. Most people would assume that I only care about black people because I married a black man. And that's so disingenuous to who also I am and my own, like, ancestry and my own mom. And that's something I've been fighting For. To, like, prove that. That this started. That my identity and my care for other people and for black culture and black people started before I met him. And it's just really offensive to me. But I know that that's what they think. And I know that they think that it's because of him or it's his fault that I left the church because he's a convert and he's progressive and, you know, came from another country and. And it's just so funny, like, learning about his story and how conservative his family was and his culture and, you know, I was the one that said, I'm leaving. I'm not going to do this.
Gerald Benzi [00:53:23] You live first. And there's a time when I did not know, what am I gonna do? But partly because I. I was disappointed in the church because I felt like, well, finally I found this safe place, right? And then it turned out not to be safe, and I didn't want to go back again into that place. I was just before I, you know, I got baptized, way nothing around me was not making any sense. I felt lost. So just, like, watching Makenzie's, like, Jenny, I was. I was heartbroken for real. I was like this. I don't know how. How I am I going to recover from this, you know, And. Which is really funny that. I mean, people would think, like, oh, yeah, these were my ideas. Like, they. Because they. They were never open to having these conversations. If they had talked to her, they could have already picked it up. That pretty much majority of it. That's, like, how she had failed for a while, but because the environment in the church does not provide a safe space for her to even talk, like, to. To her parents about it. So just left them with the person they knew, who went to a mission, who went to byu, but they have never actually, like, took interest into, okay, like, what kind of a person she is, like, what kind of things that she believes in and things like that. So hence them, like, coming. I. I was kind of heartbroken when she tried to talk about it the other time, and the response was like, whoa, you have changed. And I was just like, yeah, I don't feel like she has changed. But you just did not take time, you know, like, to. To know her or like, to have those conversations with her. Otherwise you would have known before she married me that she already kind of was on your pathway. She was kind of seeking a safe space for herself, not because she married me or anything like that. So that's something that I just want them to know that, well, she Left first. I stuck around for a little bit and I was hoping, oh, maybe some big change will happen and we will both be like, okay, now, you know, maybe we are heading the right way. Maybe we can stay. Maybe things are going to change. But it didn't happen for us. And I ended up just giving up, too, because I did not see the same people, like, taking that giant 360.
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:08] Well, I think what helped was after I came to that conclusion, like, I did finally give myself permission to get into the CES letter. And then I was like, well, of course. Why would I even try to sit here and. And justify it or work my. My way around it when the church has been completely dishonest about polygamy in the past and Joseph having multiple wives and lying to Emma about it and having underage girls.
John Dehlin [00:56:37] Is that all things that you first, like, discovered in the CS letter?
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:41] Yeah, I had never. Did you hear.
John Dehlin [00:56:42] Did you hear about the CS letter? Like, where did you first find it?
Makenzie Benzi [00:56:46] How did I find it? I think actually it was the Mormon the Gift of a Mormon Faith podcast. Like, I think that might be the first time I heard about the CES letter because I think that's the.
John Dehlin [00:57:04] Or the retreat. Okay, so you started listening to that
Makenzie Benzi [00:57:07] because you're going, yeah, like the old one with. With John and Margi and Natasha Helfer. Because I knew. I knew I couldn't stay in the church. I knew I wasn't going to raise children in the church. And that was just. Yeah, this heartbreaking trying to figure out where I'm gonna land. And then they started discussing, like, truth claims and the CES letter specifically. So I think that's how I even discovered it. And I just. Like, the internalized sexism and misogyny in me was, like, my own feelings and how I've been treated and how I've interacted with these people isn't valid enough for me to leave the church. Like, I didn't feel like anyone would. Would think that was valid enough. But if I can say, well, look at all these truth claims, then that was. Then that could be a valid reason for it. Or I thought maybe if I say that I'm doing it for my kids, which I. I mean, that was the initial reason, right? Was just knowing that I wouldn't raise kids in the church, like, even my position as a mother, like, would be more valuable than my own feelings, you know, and that's so disappointing. And that just proves the culture of the church and how problematic it was. And even that my decision to leave Couldn't just be based on what I felt and what I read that. Oh, no, no, no. You had to have been led away by your convert black husband. Like, there's no way that you could have come to that conclusion. I'm like, I'm. I've always been praised, like my whole life for being smart and for being the golden child and doing all the things right and studying and having all the right answers. And so you're telling me now that after what, 27 years of life, that suddenly all of that's gone and I can no longer reason for myself and I can't make a decision for myself and there's nothing I can do but follow my husband out of the church, which is what I've been taught to do anyway, is to follow my. My husband. So if that was the case, it's still Mormonism's fault that, That I left the church following my husband. I was never taught to have my own. My own authority or my own revelation. So it's just ironic because no matter which way you slice it, it would still be Mormonism's fault. Right.
John Dehlin [00:59:28] Or. Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:59:30] The culture of the church that I was raised in to submit to my husband. So.
Gerald Benzi [00:59:35] Yeah. And they confirmed that when we moved too, because they started calling us right after she submitted. Wait, when was it? When they started calling us?
Makenzie Benzi [00:59:48] Oh, the missionaries. When we moved to Atlanta.
Gerald Benzi [00:59:51] Yeah. Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:59:51] So we had already decided to move to Atlanta by that point.
Gerald Benzi [00:59:54] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [00:59:55] Just to have a better community for our kids to grow up in with successful, educated black people.
Gerald Benzi [01:00:03] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:04] That they could look up to and have more of a community with. So, I mean, we had been planning that since. For a year. I knew that I was going to put in a year at my job after I graduated, and then we were going to move to Atlanta and then this happened, which just further validated that we no longer wanted to be in Utah.
Gerald Benzi [01:00:23] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:24] And yeah, I was gonna.
Gerald Benzi [01:00:26] I was gonna bring up a Missionaries
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:28] reaching out to us in Atlanta.
Gerald Benzi [01:00:29] Yeah. In. In sort of invalidating your response and calling me.
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:35] They had been calling, calling both of us non stop.
Gerald Benzi [01:00:38] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:38] The missionaries. And we had never.
John Dehlin [01:00:40] Since you were going inactive.
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:42] Yeah. Like, they knew that we had never gone to church.
Gerald Benzi [01:00:45] We're never going to change. We moved there.
John Dehlin [01:00:47] Okay.
Makenzie Benzi [01:00:48] And so I responded to them, said, hey, we're taking a break from the church. If we decide that we want to come back, we will reach out, but I'd appreciate you waiting until we, until we reach out. And like, okay, we just want to know if there's anything that we can do for you. Like, oh, thanks, like, appreciate it. I'll let you know. Like we will, we'll be the ones to reach out. And they're like, sure, they called him the next day and the next day and the next day. Like they no longer reached out to me. But I, every time he told me that they called, I was so pissed off because I'm like, I had this conversation with them. I told them that this was a decision, like, and it was. I'm lucky that I haven't had that many like horribly sexist experiences in the church. And I know many women have, but it just felt like you don't give a shit what I say.
Gerald Benzi [01:01:38] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:01:39] And like that I can't be in charge of my own life or my family. Like that you think that I'm lying or not representing it or it doesn't matter because I don't have the priesthood, so my opinion doesn't matter. And it's just, and I know they're 19 year old boys, but again like that's the culture of the church that has encouraged them to continue to break people's boundaries and disregard what a woman says. And for a 19 year old boy or an 18 year old boy to not know what it means to say no, like when a woman says no and for you to ignore that, that is so dangerous. And just it, it makes me angry on so many levels because that can be a horrible situation.
Gerald Benzi [01:02:18] Yeah. I mean what bugged me most about that was when we moved in, when we moved to Atlanta. Initially, nobody reached out at all. Like, nobody for like 40amonth or something. And then all of a sudden when they called, they called me first and I was like, I'm not home because they called. As if.
Makenzie Benzi [01:02:38] Yeah, they didn't even call me. They just called you and we're trying to get you to do callings and participate.
Gerald Benzi [01:02:42] Yeah. And I was like, I'm all home. And then the next time they call I was like, can we stop by your house? We are close by. And I was like, I'm not home but my wife is home. If you want to stop by, you can see her. And then they did not do anything. Then after she spoke to them that hey, we're taking a break, the calls went non stop. And what pissed me off was that one day when we were driving together and then they called her and she, I think they texted you and you. And she was like, oh yeah, just like we said, we are taking a break. And then she hung. She hangs out five minutes later. They call me and they're like, hey, brother Benzi, when you're gonna be home? We're just thinking of stopping by. And I was just like, you talked to my wife five minutes ago. Like, it's not even a different day, same day. And then I was like, yeah, we're not home. I kind of just dismissed them. And then, since then, I. They will be calling me every time like, are you home? Are you home? Are you home? And when. When she respond, they wouldn't, like, take that as an answer. They would immediately call me again. And I was like, that's starting to really, like, piss me off now that, like, they are acting as if we are in two different parts of the world and we are not talking. Like, as if she won't tell me. Like, she just talked to them as if I don't tell her that they just called me. So that was, like, really weird. And he just, like, confirmed how you felt about that. And I just like, yeah, this is. This feels like the final straw for me. It's just like, okay, like, give us space, you know, if we're trying to figure out something that, of course, we didn't get it all these years that we were with you. So at this moment, the only, like, respectful thing you could do is just listen when someone says, hey, I will call you when I need you. Right? Just listen to that. Don't call them the next day. As if they will sleep it off and then they'll wake up the next day. Oh, yeah, yeah, now you can. You're welcome now. So the last time that they called, McKenzie was not there. And I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna tell them, yeah, you're welcome to come.
Makenzie Benzi [01:04:48] You set an appointment with them for the next day.
Gerald Benzi [01:04:50] Yeah, I was like, what? Show up tomorrow? You know, I will be home. And they never did.
Makenzie Benzi [01:04:55] Well, and the point is, you weren't going to be.
Gerald Benzi [01:04:58] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:04:59] You weren't going to be, like, mean to them or anything. It's just like, hey, respect our boundaries.
Gerald Benzi [01:05:05] Yeah. I was like, okay, yes. What you want, right?
Makenzie Benzi [01:05:08] Man to man.
Gerald Benzi [01:05:09] Yeah. So show up then. I will say that. Right? But then you just, like, never did. So that. That was something I did not feel like, okay, you. It feels like you care when you realize you are losing someone. But when we were there, nobody was like, oh, yeah, this new couple is just like, stop by or anything until you got an answer that we are not gonna show up at all. And then all of a sudden starts. Yeah. It's like, oh, brother. Ben. This. This family is moving in your area. Do you mind coming and helping us? And I just, like, you don't even know what I look like at this, because they have. You have never showed up to our address, which you have, because you have our phone numbers and everything. They never showed up, and they're just, like, so casual about it. Can we stop by? We have a barbecue. That was the last thing they said, right? It's like, oh, we have a barbecue on Sunday. And we're just wondering, like, if you want to join us. Like, you don't have to bring anything or something like that. And this barbecue was a change or something. That's when I was like, well, I'm not gonna be warm that. That Sunday, but I will be home later on. I mean, I'll be home later on that Sunday. So if you want to come to our home, you can show up at 2pm I'll be home. And that's the last time we heard from them. They never showed up.
Makenzie Benzi [01:06:30] And I understand what it's like to be a missionary, and I. I would have liked the opportunity to, like, just talk to them or, you know, invite them in or give them some food or whatever, because I understand how sucky it is to. To be working so hard, so. But I just. They didn't want to talk to me after I said no, and that's fine. I don't. Anyway.
John Dehlin [01:06:59] Yeah, always a good psa. Be nice to missionaries, but set boundaries and follow through on boundaries, and then, I don't know, call the mission president and complain. Yeah,
Makenzie Benzi [01:07:10] great point.
John Dehlin [01:07:10] So while you guys were. Were you both kind of deconstructing the truth claims then at that point, like, going through the CS letter, like, tell me, tell me, take me through your. Your faith deconstruction after you kind of already stepped away?
Makenzie Benzi [01:07:23] Yeah, I just lost any respect for profits. Just like reading the statements that they had made regarding the civil rights movement regarding the. I actually finally read, like, what the. The 2015 policy regarding children and their parents. And it was like, you need to disown your parents. And what else was it? I mean, yeah, move out of their home. And it just. It was. It just was so hypocritical to think that the church was all about families when it was specifically tearing apart families and then learning that it. Because we always say it was reversed. It wasn't reversed. It was just. They took the blame off of the prophet and said, oh, well, stake presidents and bishops can make this decision. They can. They can decide if they need to disown their family or if they can be baptized. And so it. But then, like, they weren't accountable to that. It was, oh, we, we received revelation and we're going to change it and we're so sorry. They don't say sorry, of course, but, you know, it's like they couldn't keep their story straight. First it was God that instituted ban, and then it was a mistake maybe, or we were in consensus, but now God has changed it back. And I had like, such a generous and charitable view of prophets beforehand, even when I was not thinking they were perfect. I'm like, but they're still trying their best and they're just maybe confused. But I just realized, like, how much they did know and were purposely, I mean, Joseph Fielding Smith tearing out, like, the other account of the first vision out of Joseph Smith's journal and saying that they would never apologize. And I mean, the, the Book of Mormon geography, that didn't exist and that they knew that and that they knew there was no factual evidence to support the Book of Mormon and their policy in the 70s of taking Native American children and giving them to white families and saying that they were saving, saving the child and killing the savage. Like, how do you justify that? And it's just, it's really sad. And I, I have to, I have to remember that I. That not every member knows that very few actually do. And talking about, like, the Indian placement program.
John Dehlin [01:10:10] Right. Just. Yeah. Those various really racist teachings.
Makenzie Benzi [01:10:12] Yeah. And just the history of that. But it's, it's deeply offensive to be told that I'm the confused one, that I don't know when it's like, I actually know more about the church than you do because you haven't looked into the history and
Gerald Benzi [01:10:29] you didn't pray enough for it.
Makenzie Benzi [01:10:31] But what mattered most at that moment was how they were treating me in the, in the moment and how they were treating black people in the moment. And so, but all of the history just gave me validation to my decision and made me feel comfortable in not trying to make it work despite my very real feelings. And that still feels like a betrayal of myself because my feelings should be enough and, and I shouldn't need to look into truth claims to justify my decision to leave. But I did, and I don't regret it. And it just, I wish that I, I wish that I could be strong enough, that I was strong enough in myself to have just left it at that and just say, like, I don't like the sexism in the church. I don't like the racism in the church. And I'm out.
John Dehlin [01:11:22] Yeah. And to the point you just said, can you really, like define what you mean by your feelings should be enough? Because so much of what gets people into Mormonism is my feeling should be enough. So if somebody's feelings are enough, can you define what, what words you mean within your feelings? Like what words come up for you when you think about your frustration or whatever it would be with the church at that time?
Makenzie Benzi [01:11:42] Yeah. I just wish that when I say I've left the church and someone asks why and I say I don't like how women are treated in the church or I haven't been treated fairly in the church as a woman or black people have not been treated fairly in the church and I don't like it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. It makes me not enjoy going to church. It prevents me from feeling the spirit or feeling good or however you want to call it that. It does not make me a better person. It does not make me a happier person to go to church. That that's enough. That me saying I don't want to be in your company is enough for me to not want to go. That I don't need to explain and give a whole soliloquy of why the church isn't true, which they don't respect anyway because that's just, that's written by anti Mormons and people that want to destroy the church. And that's not true. That I can just say I'm not happy to go to church and I'm happier when I'm not there and so that's why I don't go to church. And that that's enough. That I don't need to justify it. I don't need to hear someone else's explanation of well, I'm black in the church and I'm happy so. Or you know, I'm a woman and I don't feel any problems, that's fine, that's your prerogative. You are more than welcome to go to church because you feel happy and fulfilled there. I don't, and I don't need to explain any further. And I. There was actually a woman that I met on my mission. She was a less active. So we went and knocked on her door and she was so generous to say like, hi sisters, come on in. And we had known that she had left the church, that she was inactive and it was the first time that I had been able to sit and discuss with someone their reasonings why. And she's like, I just, I've Been praying about it and there are a lot of things that bother me about the church that I don't agree with. And you know, I just finally felt like my family would be happier in a different church. And I couldn't argue with that. And I'm like, great, who am I to say that your feelings are not right? Like you are a 40 year old woman, mother returned missionary herself and you're telling me that you felt good about being in a different church and that was valid and I didn't quite understand it, but I didn't disagree. And it was like looking back, one of the first steps to valuing my, my inner knowing and, and valuing someone else's. And so I just wish that most people, the people in the church could just say it's great, I'm glad you felt that way and I'm glad that you feel better now and not you must be confused or where you don't know happiness. I do. And everyone is seeking their own happiness. When someone is so concerned for your happiness, it's like I'm a human, I'm going to seek my own happiness. No one seeks to be miserable. No one is like what can I do to make my life more complicated or unhappy? Like don't worry about me, I've got me covered. So don't tell me that I don't, that I'm not happy or that I'm not content with where I'm at because I not seeking to be uncomfortable.
Gerald Benzi [01:15:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:12] As somebody who just a few years ago, three years ago probably to be exact, if I would have heard somebody say that when I was Mormon, I would have said, well, the church isn't always supposed to make you happy or you have been like co opted by Satan or like the liberal Democrat party or something. I would have found another reason because we're starting with the, the true church. There's no good reason to leave the true church. You stay no matter what, whether you're gay, whether you're biracial, no matter what it is because it's true. And God wouldn't make a true church that people would have a good reason to leave. So I can hear you kind of the comment section, I just kind of want to give you any kind of space if you want to answer that. You don't have to.
Makenzie Benzi [01:15:55] No, I'd love to feel like, I
John Dehlin [01:15:56] feel like that comment's going to come up that people are going to say the same things they probably said to you when you left, that you're, you know, finding excuses or whatever. That is that your feelings aren't valid because you had, you had the truth and you gave it up. So what do you have to say?
Makenzie Benzi [01:16:11] Sure. And I, I mean I agree I would have been on the same, the same train of thought that like I have all the happiness. But looking at the numbers of the members of church of the church, it is less than 1% of the entire world population that are members of the church. Not even accounting for how many are actively practicing in the church. But to say that only we'll be generous and say 1%, only 1% of the world knows happiness, like just contemplate that for a moment and how self righteous and small minded that is. And I know that I'm like, I mean it's a miracle if anyone that disagrees with me is still listening to me and that those words are, are emotionally reactive and cause people to be very defensive. But honestly, like you think nobody else in the world is happy except for 1%, that 99 of the world is
John Dehlin [01:17:15] not happy, that they have portions of truth, maybe not all of it.
Gerald Benzi [01:17:19] They don't know happiness. Right.
Makenzie Benzi [01:17:21] And if you think that I don't know happiness by now, then the church hasn't done a good job of teaching me what happiness is. Like if I'm able to be confused by the devil, then maybe I never knew what happiness was by following a Jesus.
John Dehlin [01:17:35] That you probably learned at church. Because I do think that Mormons, so many of them are good people and a lot of the same very conservative Mormon values that I, I had, I just see them differently now. I still, you know, like I'm an atheist now and I'm more moved to the left since I left the church. But the things I cared about, about keeping families together, you know, are expressed in different ways. And it just sounds like those core values to who? To what Mormonism raised you as. You're just living out to a, to the fullest more now outside of the church that you learned from there, right?
Makenzie Benzi [01:18:08] Yeah, exactly. Realize that nothing about my personality, about my core values has changed. I still, yeah, it's just, and I, I understand I was in the same place. Like that's why, I mean we go back to like that post, right? About like if you don't like byu, then you can get out and you're just, you're just a sinner and you just want to wear like that's still me, right? Like that is the same person. I just see it differently now. Like I still care about families. I love my family. I want my family to be Happy. I want to develop relationships with my family. That's important to me. I care about honesty. Like, I care about charity and serving. And I can still. I still actively serve. Not in the church. And in fact, I serve more because I was raised with this mentality of, like, oh, I don't need to give to you right now. I give at church where it's like, how is. How is that person being served in this moment that's hungry and freezing? And me saying, oh, I give it church that doesn't actually give back to you. It gives back first to itself and then to its members if they're doing X, Y, and Z and then to building malls. You know, like, the fact that I would have ever assumed that was a valid answer instead of just giving that person what they need in that moment. Like, and that's the. I just wish that people could really understand, like, I followed Jesus out of the Mormon Church.
John Dehlin [01:19:38] Yeah. I think people. I. If I could get one message across, I swear it'd be that over and over again. How many times that kind of sentiment has been said like, I followed Jesus. That guy, that homeless rabbi. Like, that was a good dude. I wanted to follow him.
Makenzie Benzi [01:19:55] Was a person of color.
John Dehlin [01:19:57] Yeah. He wasn't a white guy either.
Makenzie Benzi [01:19:59] He wasn't gonna support white supremacy in any form, first of all, because he wasn't even white. And to only see your. To see yourself as a white American church in the Bible, as, like, the chosen people, as the. The tribe of Israel is. It's. It's just not even close to the truth.
John Dehlin [01:20:24] Yeah. Have you ever heard that Gandhi quote where he's like, christians, I like your. I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians. Have you heard that Gandhi quote?
Makenzie Benzi [01:20:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:20:33] Kind of like, was like, can't disagree with that.
Makenzie Benzi [01:20:37] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:20:38] It's like, I know that our people can do better. So where do we go from here? What else. What else was important on your faith journey that led you up to becoming a guest on Mormon Stories podcast?
Makenzie Benzi [01:20:53] Go ahead.
Gerald Benzi [01:20:54] I don't. I don't. I don't think I have any more to say, but pretty much, I think we have covered. For me, the last straw was when I don't know if my kids. I don't know if you're the one who sent me that, but I don't know whose podcast is it. But they went. They dive deep into Joseph Smith's vision and stuff, and that kind of just confirmed my doubt that I've had before. And then I didn't even know that there were different versions of it, you know, so that alone was just like,
Makenzie Benzi [01:21:29] well, the history of treasure digging and not using the plates.
Gerald Benzi [01:21:34] Yes. And, yeah, I didn't even know all those things about him and the names
Makenzie Benzi [01:21:38] in the book of Mormon stories that he read.
Gerald Benzi [01:21:41] Huh. So that was the last nail to the coffin for me when I was like, well, you have been questioning this from day one. So here it is. Here. People who belong to this change who are analyzing this, and they are giving you different accounts of it, and they have the evidence, you know, And I was just like, okay, I, I'm just not going to subject myself to this kind of situation where I have to constantly convince myself, maybe something is gonna come up, maybe I'm gonna see the truth around the corner, you know? So I, I was just like, well, in my kid's head, I think you had more, like, content that you were sharing with me that I wasn't, like, actively searching.
Makenzie Benzi [01:22:27] I was like, read this, read this, read this. I talked about this.
Gerald Benzi [01:22:29] Yeah. The first time she sent me this, years later, the PDF, she's like, read it and tell me, Tell me what you think about it. And I was driving, and then. You mean, you asked me, like, an hour later, did you read it?
John Dehlin [01:22:39] And I was like, I'm like, 128 pages.
Gerald Benzi [01:22:41] I'm driving.
Makenzie Benzi [01:22:43] You read it at every stoplight.
Gerald Benzi [01:22:45] Yeah. I could tell how excited she was. I was like, whoa, whoa, this must, this must mean a lot. So what I did. And I was just like, well, I am in shock. I don't know how to feel about this at this moment. But she was already, like, kind of ahead of me at this point, so. Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:23:04] And I just think it was more significant to me because that was my whole life that I built on that. And so, I mean, for you, it was like, discounting the last five years, but for me, it was like, oh, I'm changing this worldview that I've had for 27 years.
Gerald Benzi [01:23:24] Yeah. Which in itself was almost scary to me at some point. You know, I, I, I, I remember telling you that I feel like I've been fooled or something like that, because I could not bring myself, I mean, to the, to the fact that you were the one who questioning this stuff way more than I was at that point, because I, I was like, so if she checked all the boxes, like, in monmonism, like, she was born there, which is what everybody was proud to say. Like, I was born in the church, you know, and then you went to a mission, and then you came back and you went to byu, you know, And I was just like, I don't know how, how to feel about this. You know, I was not expecting this from someone like you. And then at the same time, it's really frightening how true it was like to just realize how much of these, I mean, these things I've been believing in my own self was questioning them without any evidence at all for you to bring out more stuff that just like, confirms those doubts, like, whoa, this is why you were feel where you're feeling the same account you were questioning from day one. Or here it is, like, it does not make sense to a lot of people who were in this chat. So there it is. So it took me a while to actually admit to her that, well, I finally left too. I was just like, I don't know how to feel about this. So I think for me, that's pretty much it. Like it at that point. That's when I just decided to walk away. And also how, in addition to that, how other black people had responded to me saying I'm Mormon, I was just kind of heartbroken because they'd be like, why? Like, do you know them? Like, you know, because they did know about those. I mean, you know, the racist part
Makenzie Benzi [01:25:24] of that imagined by members that want to leave. Yeah, it's real. People that are not even in the
Gerald Benzi [01:25:30] church, who are not even in church telling you, like, yeah, you mean you belong to that organization? I was just like, okay. So I finally decided to walk away, but it was a really hard decision to make because I thought I finally, I finally, I found a place where I can feel safe, where I can grow spiritually and, you know, surround myself with people who have the same goal and people who actually care about being Christ, like, only to be disappointed by how they act and how they respond to Christ like things. So that really was painful for me to walk away from that. After I celebrated being in the church and being like, oh, well, I. I mean, I'm finally sitting, like, telling my parents about it and being all proud that I'm finally growing spiritually and then only to be eat by, you know, a ton of things that were dismantling my faith like that. I was like, well, this sucks. And it feels like I am not smart enough to pick this up. So I don't know if, you know, I'm going to be able to believe again the same way I did, but I know it will take a while. We'll probably come out of it. But in that moment, that's how it felt. Like, so pretty much for my journey. That's when I was like, well, I'm done. I'm just gonna be a person who tried to be like Christ on my own. I'm not going to identify with this group of people who I portray themselves as they are Christ, like by their actions. They don't literally like, you know, say the same thing.
Telling Family About Leaving and Life After Mormonism
John Dehlin [01:27:17] So what was your Gerald, what was your parents reaction when you told them that you were leaving the church? You just mentioned that like they were excited that you were joining to begin with because you were like invest, investing in your spirituality just to leave it. So what was their reaction?
Gerald Benzi [01:27:32] So that's like a part of my journey right now because.
John Dehlin [01:27:37] Ongoing process.
Gerald Benzi [01:27:38] Yeah. My dad died before I tell him that and I still kind of like gathering enough confidence to tell my mom about it because I, she has been through a lot this year and I don't know how to, to tell her in a way that she, she would understand exactly where I'm coming from and she's not going to associate it with how bad this year has been for her, you know, because I felt like it was a lot for me to be like, oh, well, oh, dead, died or another thing, you know, I thought I was making progress. I'm not like I'm, you know, so I'm still kind of trying to bring myself around to the idea of, you know, bringing around that conversation because ever since my deadpass like she's been like really, you know, kind of trying to find comfort in her kids and she's, she's really like prayerful. She's that type of person who text you like, hey, it's prayer time, I'm gonna pray like you want to pray with me, you know, so I feel like I will probably break a heart right now if I'm just like, well, I'm not really, you know, doing the exact same thing that you are assuming I am doing at the moment.
John Dehlin [01:28:57] So trying to be thoughtful about it.
Gerald Benzi [01:28:59] Yeah. And I, I want here to understand my gene and how it has been like for me such that when I bring it to the point where I'm like, okay, so this is why I am no longer in change. It's not going to be, you know, like a dagger into a hat or something like that. That is so painful for her because she's kind of really vulnerable at the moment and I don't want, I don't want to add more insult injury.
Makenzie Benzi [01:29:31] But that's just evidence too that like we haven't changed, you know, we're not doing the same things. That we're. We were doing. But the essence of who you are and what you value hasn't changed. So much so that your mom would never know. Even that my parents would never know. Like, had I not told them. And even when I did tell them that I left the church, it was like, oh, well, we saw that you. You got a nose piercing, and we saw that you weren't wearing your garments, so we knew something was wrong. But it's like, but if you were blind, would you have known? You know, if you didn't see those things, would you have thought that I was suddenly unhappy? I mean, that's just further evidence that. That happiness is not monopolized by the church. Because I. It's not like I became this depressed, angry, horrible, dishonest person that just, you know, like, I'm the same person. And when I have been angry, it's been things that are pretty valid to be angry about. I'm like, yeah, I'm angry about injustice. I'm angry about kids dying and dying by suicide, and I'm angry by women feeling less than in the church. I mean, I joined so many Facebook groups that were like, women that were struggling in the church, that wanted to stay in the church and trying to support each other. And I tried so hard to stay and to find a place for me to be my progressive self and to stay. And even finding that community, it was like, oh, don't do that. Don't do that. You're associating with with bad people or with people that are going to lead you a certain way. And if people could only understand, like, how hard I did try and how how beneficial that group was for so long to keeping me in the church longer or how getting a nose piercing kept me in the church longer because I felt like I was making progress with my relationship with God. So it's so funny that these things that people notice and judge me for are so superficial and that you would never. You would never know otherwise if I hadn't.
Gerald Benzi [01:31:45] Yeah, if I didn't done those things.
Makenzie Benzi [01:31:48] So, yeah, we have the same values. We're just acting in a different way. But we ourselves are not change at all.
John Dehlin [01:32:00] How did things go when I'm assuming you did tell your parents and you were that golden child, how have things been and how did you tell them? And if you have any advice for like, thumbs up every listener, do this, or, like, avoid this. Yeah,
Makenzie Benzi [01:32:17] it's. It was devastating for them. I wanted to wait a year to tell them. I wanted to. To leave the church and Not. Yeah, I just. That was the arbitrary amount of time. And then tell them after so that they could not say, oh, we've noticed changes, or we expected this, you know,
John Dehlin [01:32:42] and that's a good idea.
Makenzie Benzi [01:32:44] So I. I mean, I recommend it. I didn't tell them immediately when I left the church in May, maybe June 2020, and didn't tell them until November. I mean, don't do what I did.
John Dehlin [01:32:54] I told my parents the next day after I read all the truth claims. Avoid. Let your emotions cool down for 365 days.
Makenzie Benzi [01:33:02] Yep. I mean, it's. There's no right way for anyone for sure. And it was really just. I finally. I gave in sooner because I wanted. I wanted to support my siblings that are all living with my parents and not all of them believe in the church, and I wanted them to be able to be authentic with my parents. And I knew that if I crushed them with the reality of their. The fall of their golden child, that. That my siblings would be able to. To be able to talk to my parents and to. To be more authentic and save their relationship. Because I know I have siblings that just don't even spend time at home because they're, you know, asked to participate in scripture study or expected to go to church or things like that and being preached to or. So I just wanted. I wanted my family to be good and to be together, and so I decided to do that. And I. I wanted to tell them so that our relationship could be fixed and so that, you know, I was preventing further unraveling from me being just angry about the church and its members and therefore them. And I wanted to prevent that. And I wanted to make a safe space for our kids one day to be able to have their own nuanced ideas and for them to respect how we parent and how we live our life. And it's gonna take some time to get used to that idea. So, yeah, so I told them in a text, in a group text to my mom and dad, and I like, I love you, and I'm so grateful that you're my parents, and I'm. I really value how I've been raised, and I wouldn't change it. And it's because I love you and because I value our relationship that I'm telling you this, and I know it's going to be difficult for you, but I. Am having a really hard time with the church and its response of many of its members. Members that I know and love, that you know and love, and I don't. It's just Not a safe space for me to raise my family in. And I'm stepping away and I hope that we can move past this and that we can still have a good relationship. And my mom was more understanding. She. I mean, I'm. She cried, she grieved and that's fair. Grieving the child that. The loss of the child she thought she had. And I understand.
John Dehlin [01:36:04] I'm gonna play John Dehlin for a second. For all of our non Mormon listeners, what if you could explain to people what is the idea around Mormon family theology and what does it mean to have a child, like, step away from the faith? Like, what did that blow mean to your parents? Yeah, your family.
Makenzie Benzi [01:36:22] So to my parents that means we would no longer be together in the next life. That I was breaking these covenants that I'd made and that I am. I must be confused because I know the church is true. I. I have known the church is true in my previous, you know, years. And so something is terribly wrong with me. And this is potentially the worst possible news they could ever receive short of death. I hope that my death would be more devastating. Just kidding. I'm being facetious. It would be. Oh, especially if I died after I left the church.
John Dehlin [01:37:07] It's a spiritual death, though.
Makenzie Benzi [01:37:08] It is.
John Dehlin [01:37:10] It's a death of like, you know, the. What you can relate to, what you can talk about now. It's like a morning for you and them of what you even have in common now.
Makenzie Benzi [01:37:18] Yeah. And that, and I, I admit that was such a huge part of my life and it is such a huge part of their life. And like, I let them know I don't have any hard feelings against the church. Like, I still want to hear about your life in the church and your experiences. And that's not going to change. All that's changing is me. And, and I did, I did express concerns with like, their political affiliation and that I, I did not feel like many of the conservative values were the values of Jesus and that I was following the. The Jesus that I'm had, that I had studied in the Bible and had come to know myself and that we just were no longer aligned and that I. So that was, that was a twofold affront on like the identity in the church and the identity in like conservative politics. And in one text message. In one text message, Makenzie, like the day before the election day, which is just feel like I had to just. It's like the preacher in a wedding and I just had to share my piece before.
Gerald Benzi [01:38:36] Did you ran out of characters before the Marriage occurred. What did you ran out of characters?
Makenzie Benzi [01:38:40] Did not run out of characters. They both have iPhones so shame on them.
John Dehlin [01:38:45] Just the scrolling. Yeah. Made their arm tired.
Makenzie Benzi [01:38:49] Oh, it was so. I, I, in hindsight I wish I could have done it maybe face to face.
John Dehlin [01:38:56] Was it emotionally charged? Is that why you wanted to get it done the day before the election? Do you feel like. Yeah, like it just a good headspace to do it.
Makenzie Benzi [01:39:02] Yeah, because I wasn't planning on doing it at that time but I just, I just was overwhelmed like the day before the election and I was like, I just have to say this. And as a, and the thing is I respect different opinions. Like I, I don't personally have a problem with my parents associating with any party, even if it's different than me. But I, I did want them to acknowledge the horrible racist things that had been said and I wanted to acknowledge like how women had been specifically targeted and spoken horribly against and the misogyny that was there. And me just expressing. I have a problem with you supporting a person that shares these kind of ideas and it makes me concerned to have children and bring children into your home that those ideas are just maybe not. You're not saying them. I don't think that you're this kind of person. But they're on the TV or you're
John Dehlin [01:40:12] not the type of person that's going to call them out.
Makenzie Benzi [01:40:13] Right?
John Dehlin [01:40:14] Yeah. To bring that around their grandparents.
Makenzie Benzi [01:40:16] Right.
John Dehlin [01:40:17] Don't know.
Makenzie Benzi [01:40:17] To bring black children around parents that don't believe in black Lives Matter or don't believe in, in safe gun laws or don't believe in treating women or people or immigrants with respect. I'm like, you realize you're married to one. Yeah, but it's, and it's, and I can handle it because I'm an adult and I know that those things aren't true. But bringing little children and just absorbing those ideas or it not being refuted is just horrifying. And it's. They're gonna hear it in the world, of course, but not, I would hope not from people that they love.
Gerald Benzi [01:40:59] Yeah. Also I think the other thing that you, you brought up was how like entertaining non factual, you know, things and theories because they support a certain political affiliation that you have was also part of the reason why that was frustrating because Makenzie kept saying like, well I don't expect this for someone who is as educated, who went to college that you don't have these tendons of just like, well, let's follow the effects. But, but you are like entertaining all these not true ideas.
Makenzie Benzi [01:41:36] All of the responses were, he didn't say that that didn't happen.
Gerald Benzi [01:41:40] And you just.
Makenzie Benzi [01:41:40] And that's unequivocally false. So I don't have a problem. At the end of the day, I can get over the fact that you support an ideology that I don't agree with, but at least just admit that those things were said. You don't agree with them, but you agree with the policy above the person. But to sit there and tell me that those things didn't happen.
Gerald Benzi [01:41:59] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:42:00] Is deeply offensive. And even if, even if those things weren't said or you don't agree with them, can you empathize with me and understand how if I do feel that way, if I do feel like someone is a white supremacist, even if they're not, can you see why that would be upsetting to like, my own parents supporting that? Like, can you just imagine how that would make me feel? Even if I'm wrong, just admit, just acknowledge that that's where I'm coming from and that that is scary. So there's just, it's. Differentiation is hard. And that was all I was asking for, is just being, just being allowed to disagree on those things, but respect how I want to live my life, how I want to raise my children and not call me confused or led away or, or any of these things and not openly oppose my parenting styles and what we teach our kids. And yeah, it, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:43:12] Differentiation is the name of the ex Mormon game. May I just say, whether you are in the church, out of the church, talking to somebody who's in the church, or ex Mormons talking to each other. So again, I can hear the comment section anytime we get vaguely political or anything on the podcast. Differentiation is an important skill that I recommend for everyone that MacKenzie and Gerald could have their feelings and their perspectives about their lived experiences and their lens on the world. And you can differentiate from your perspectives without invalidating them or the things that they've just said that are like truly, truly close to their heart because of the places that they've come from, the color of their skin, the people they know, and the data that's available to them that is going to be different than some of our listeners. So just want to point out. Comment section. Please be kind. Differentiation. Practice it, know it, love it. So.
Makenzie Benzi [01:44:05] And of course I would love for everyone to agree with me. I mean, who wouldn't. Who doesn't want to be agreed with? But at the end of the day, all I wish someone would Say that disagrees with me is saying, I could understand how that would make you feel. I can understand how if you really feel that someone is spreading dangerous ideas that would hurt your husband or your children, I could understand why that would be so scary for you and really hard for people that you love to agree with those ideas. Or maybe not even those ideas with someone who shares those ideas. I don't feel that they share those ideas, but I could understand that if you see it that way, why that would be hard for you, that's all, is just like, believe someone's experience, believe someone's feelings when they tell you. Because there's almost nothing that destroys relationships faster than invalidating someone's experience and saying that's not true. That's not how you feel. That's wrong.
John Dehlin [01:45:06] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:45:07] You can't argue with how I feel.
John Dehlin [01:45:09] Yeah. That's so good. I love the way you put that. And as we're starting to wrap up here, I want to make sure that I ask you where you've kind of landed. What helped you the most as you left the church? You mentioned Gift, the Mormon Faith crisis, Those retreats that are on the Mormon Stories website, and they have their own website, too. Invaluable, like 70 hours of free counseling. So you mentioned that. What other things kind of helped you and picked you up? And then where have you landed now, spiritually, religious wise, like both of you, you're individuals, so you can both answer that question. So good to know you don't have to have the exact same answer.
Resources, Reflections, and Closing Thoughts
Makenzie Benzi [01:45:45] So, yeah, I. I really love Untamed by Glennon Doyle. It's been like my new Bible. My new Bible. I love Brene Brown, really admire her and her work. Understanding the difference between guilt and shame and what is a useful tool and. And developing an inner knowing and trusting yourself and understanding differentiation and how to coexist with different ideas and that that's okay. And finding my own identity out of the church and redefining who I am and being okay with that and just being confident with how I feel and my choices and that that's valid. So, yeah, definitely. Glennon Doyle is my new cult leader.
John Dehlin [01:46:47] Oh, careful now. I know.
Makenzie Benzi [01:46:50] And then not flipping into that, but
John Dehlin [01:46:51] your ideas about, Sorry, we're gonna say no.
Makenzie Benzi [01:46:54] I. It's funny because I. I think people in the church that know us would not anticipate this, but I. I don't know where I land with. With Jesus, the existence of Jesus. I. I think that he was a real person. Can't speak to his divinity or
John Dehlin [01:47:24] the
Makenzie Benzi [01:47:24] reality of him being a God or the literal Son of God. I don't know if there is a God. I am, I would consider myself very spiritual. I believe in like cosmic energy of there being some type of power. I'm sure my parents are like, she's completely lost it. I don't know. And I'm okay with not knowing. I, I believe in the principles that are. That Jesus taught if he did exist or that are ascribed to him. I continue to live by those principles, but it doesn't like, like charity, like serving, serving the poor, Caring about the poor, caring about equality. Yeah. Equality of socio. Economic status, of gender, of members and non members, spiritual or not. Or enrich. Yeah. Everything I. That's how people treat each other is how I judge my life and that's how I judge other people is how do you treat other people? And how can we make our country and our world a place that we treat people fairly? And that's what I spend my time and my money on helping to contribute to. So I think I'm still doing Jesus's work, just not how other people are doing Jesus's work necessarily. So, yeah. I mean I'm still in the. I'm still in the process of figuring out exactly where I land and I'm not anxious about it. I'm just trusting myself and trusting that I, I know myself. And no one can say they know me better than myself. And no one can know what's better for me or what's good for me than me. So I am no longer outsourcing my authority to anybody else. And I do not need anyone else to tell me how to be happy or how to be fulfilled. So that's where I'm at.
John Dehlin [01:49:41] Do another John de Lynn. Love it. Gerald, what about you?
Gerald Benzi [01:49:49] For me, I can, I cannot say really. What am I using right now to help me go through this? I listen to pretty much the same podcast my kids are listening to and a bunch of others, just at a lower volume. Yeah. And I am kind of focusing on more of like self help and self care because I realized that I got detached with my inner self during the time that I made these decisions that I am kind of wishing that I did not make.
John Dehlin [01:50:28] Mean getting baptized.
Gerald Benzi [01:50:30] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:50:31] You disconnected from your inner self?
Gerald Benzi [01:50:33] From my inner self, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:50:34] Wow.
Gerald Benzi [01:50:35] So I, I want to re establish that connection and I just want to wake on listening to the little voice inside me that is always telling me to do good things in general. And I want to focus on the good principles because I do believe that Jesus Christ was real. I do believe that he existed. But I have a problem with the vision of Jesus Christ that other people portray. And I want more and more people to realize that not everything that is said about him is true. Some people say things to support a certain ideology they want you to believe about him because it supports their doctrine, which they want you to believe, and you can join their institution. So that's where I made is I do believe that we, as human beings, we have good spirit in us, and you can find good goodness from within. So that's kind of the path that I am right now, is to focus on that spiritual part of us that literally doesn't dictate anything that is not good for us or good for the people that are around us. I want to live my. I want to love my neighbor. Because Jesus, when he said that, he did not describe the neighbor, meaning anyone who is next to you or anyone you share community with is your neighbor. It doesn't matter their skin color, their gender, their sexuality. You are just supposed to be there for them because they can also be there for you. And that's the world that I'm trying to, you know, to live in. That's the world that I am trying to make everyone see that without each other, it does not matter if Jesus comes back or not. It's still a world of chaos. So I would say as far as spirituality is concerned, I am working on that, on how can I bring goodness in the world. At the same time, finding goodness within myself and working on that. That's the principle I want. If we. If we ever have kids, I want them to understand that there's goodness in them. And if they focus on themselves and look hard enough, they can be good people. They can influence people around them to be also good, and they can be a blessing to others and themselves, whether they have been taught a doctrine or not a doctrine. I believe human beings, we have more to offer to the world that is good, but only if we can invest our time and energy into finding that goodness within us. So I would just say that's the part that I am currently on. I don't want to teach anyone any sort of doctrine. I don't want to entertain any sort of doctrine. I don't care who's right or wrong, but goodness does not pick a side. You know, we all love something that is good, and we can see why it's good and we can benefit from it. So that's where I'm kind of trying to go with this. I don't want people to leave the church. If they are finding peace and happiness in the church, well, that's the place that you're meant to be. Stay there if you are not finding peace and happiness. I don't want people to follow the same path that I feel like I've walked on. Of doubting yourself and later on finding yourself in a position where you regret the time that you have lost that you could have done a lot of good things with. So I would like people to just be happy with the decisions they make if they make them happy. If it does not make you happy, listen for. I mean, listen to the small voice. Because 100 of the time, it's right.
Makenzie Benzi [01:54:51] If it makes you happy and it's not hurting anyone. Sounds good.
Gerald Benzi [01:54:54] Sounds good.
Makenzie Benzi [01:54:55] Go for it.
John Dehlin [01:54:56] Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:54:57] Kind of the end.
John Dehlin [01:54:58] That's some beautiful wisdom for me to wrap up on. So if people want to reach out to you, to stay connected to you, if they, like, love your story, do you have anything that you want to plug or you can just remain anonymous? That's also.
Gerald Benzi [01:55:13] So we. You want to talk about our podcast?
Makenzie Benzi [01:55:18] Oh, do we?
Gerald Benzi [01:55:20] So in a year, we. We started your podcast, but we haven't put out as many episodes as we should.
John Dehlin [01:55:27] So we gotta have people like Pokio and Produ to do more.
Gerald Benzi [01:55:30] Yes. So I would. I would think from here going onwards, we are going to try to share more of our story of, like, things maybe we did not now that we're
Makenzie Benzi [01:55:39] out in the open.
Gerald Benzi [01:55:40] Yeah. Things that we did not talk on this. Talk about on this podcast. We also have an Instagram page for that podcast. Right.
John Dehlin [01:55:48] Okay. What's its name?
Gerald Benzi [01:55:49] Talking with the Benzes.
John Dehlin [01:55:52] Talking with the Benzies.
Makenzie Benzi [01:55:53] Yep. Yeah, that's us.
Gerald Benzi [01:55:54] So we would try to make it more professional now and we'll try to
Makenzie Benzi [01:55:59] make more all of our followers that
Gerald Benzi [01:56:01] we're gonna get from here because we. We were not very serious about. We were trying. Actually, we started that podcast because of our faith crisis, because we wanted to talk about hard things and we wanted to, like, bring people to the table so we can normalize these conversations where someone is like, hey, I'm struggling with spirituality, and I don't. I don't want to feel like people are going to judge me because of the decision I'm gonna make or anything else that we struggle to talk about is families. You know, there are certain topics that are a taboo or people are just comfortable saying, like, well, we don't talk about that. You know, which we feel like in our lives that contributed to where we are now not in a good way. We wish certain things were talked about in our families. We read certain things were talked about in our communities.
Makenzie Benzi [01:56:50] So that's what talking to each other helped us. And that's it. So we figured if other people can learn how to talk to each other.
Gerald Benzi [01:56:58] Yeah. So, yeah, we hope we can put out more episodes where we record ourselves sending people there.
Makenzie Benzi [01:57:06] Okay.
Gerald Benzi [01:57:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:57:07] Having these conversations, just seven hours wasn't enough because I know it's not. It's not for me.
Makenzie Benzi [01:57:11] I know, like, nobody on earth wants to listen to us talk any more than we already have, but that's cute.
John Dehlin [01:57:16] You'll be surprised. You'd be surprised. Everyone comment below.
Makenzie Benzi [01:57:21] But I'm on Instagram. Ken's Curtis. Actually, no. Kenzie Benzi. Is that my name? I don't know. Type in Makenzie Benzley. You'll find me. And then I have mackenziebenzie.com because I am a life coach and I would love to help people through faith crisis crises. But I'm also a speech pathologist. So reach out to me if you want speech therapy for your child or yourself. Yeah. So I think that's everywhere on the Internet.
John Dehlin [01:57:53] Check out websites, check out their Instagrams, poke them and prod them to make more podcasts. I don't know a thing or two about podcasting, but the guy who normally sits here in this chair does and
Makenzie Benzi [01:58:04] he doesn't, you know, nothing.
John Dehlin [01:58:05] Bam. Has Mike all the time and drop his computer like I have this whole time. Is there anything else as we wrap up that you guys want to leave our listeners with? Any final thoughts, comments.
Gerald Benzi [01:58:19] For me, I'll just. I tell everybody that it's okay not to know things and it's okay to question things. Uncomfortable things makes us grow. They don't dismantle us. So don't be afraid. Like to talk about uncomfortable things and also just be brave. Like the world need more brave. Needs more brave people right now. We need people who can confront hard topics. We need people who can confront hard feelings. So don't feel like, don't be scared. You can be brave. You can do it. If you exist today, it means you are capable of a lot of things. And don't just say there's goodness in the world. Be the goodness.
John Dehlin [01:59:06] That was the most beautiful wrap up I've ever. Oh, yeah, Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [01:59:11] I just wish that. I wish that every, every Mormon and non Mormon just knew how many people were going through this experience. And if you are one of them, you are not alone. I can't even. I wish I could explain to every family member that is upset with me or confused with me how any one of the people that I know and love and respect and that they respect is also going through the same thing. So it's so easy to judge me because I'm out and I'm doing things that you can easily tell. Do not align with the church, like a nose piercing, not murdering people or stealing from people, but things like that. And that there's so many more people that are not out that are going through the same experiences that we are, and that this is a normal experience. It's so. It's such an integral part of human development and becoming an adult to question what you've believed your entire life and to form new opinions and to grow together and take other experiences that you've never had and have that change your viewpoint. And it's so healthy and so normal. And I'm proud of us, and I'm proud that we have a marriage that we can learn and grow together. And, yeah, I think that it's the best for everyone and just have a little more empathy and have a little. A little more understanding that there are more people than you know and will ever know that feel the same way that we do and are struggling and how hard it is to leave the church. It's not something that we did because it was fun or because we wanted to sin. I mean, it's. It's just being authentic to ourselves and doing the best we can in the best way for us, and that might look different for someone else, and that's okay. This is just how it worked for us. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:01:15] Yeah. Incredible, incredible wrap up. And I hope that everyone else is going to not only push you to make more podcasts, and I hope the first one will be what it's like being a power couple, because that was so good. Do you guys think, like, thank you. How to. And what it's like being a power couple, basically.
Gerald Benzi [02:01:35] Right? Yeah.
Makenzie Benzi [02:01:35] I mean, I won't argue with you.
John Dehlin [02:01:36] Yeah. I don't. We already know how that argument with the Adele song went earlier. I'm vicious. I know I'm slightly right.
Makenzie Benzi [02:01:44] We will not bring up the Adele topic again.
John Dehlin [02:01:46] I know.
Makenzie Benzi [02:01:47] We were always on Kara's side. Love the record show.
Gerald Benzi [02:01:49] Yep.
Makenzie Benzi [02:01:50] Thank you.
John Dehlin [02:01:51] Told you these are good people. All right, well, I think that wraps up our, like, completely epic three part Mormon Stories episode with the Benzies. What else rhymes with Benzi besides mackenzie?
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:05] What are the odds of that? First of all, what are the odds of being a one? What. What Else rhymes with Makenzie. I mean nothing except for Benzi. One freaking dude in the entire world
John Dehlin [02:02:16] selected out of Zimbabwe. Yeah, put into your heart.
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:20] I just want everyone to know that my parents did not name me Makenzie Benzi. They are not that evil. I just happened to marry you.
Gerald Benzi [02:02:26] He wasn't meant to be.
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:28] Yeah, something like that.
John Dehlin [02:02:29] I expect you to like bounce in here with like pigtails, you know, like Makenzie Benzi here.
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:34] It's like a nursery rhyme. I really should have a children's show. Yeah, one day we'll see.
John Dehlin [02:02:38] Yeah, yeah, that's the name. But I'm sure as a speech pathologist working with children, whatever. Makenzie Benzi, right?
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:45] That's adorable.
Gerald Benzi [02:02:46] They would love to come to your office. For real?
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:48] My theme?
John Dehlin [02:02:49] Yeah. Is that hard for kids to say, by the way? Makenzie Benzi it is. Got all the wrong syllables on it or whatever.
Makenzie Benzi [02:02:58] It's a mess, but it's fine. It works.
John Dehlin [02:03:02] All right, well, if you enjoyed this podcast with the Benzies, please, if you can, if it's in your bud, please go to MormonStories.org and become a donor. Watch me do a really proficient job at doing the donor wrap up that John always does. But he's not here, so I'm gonna do it. So we lose donors every month, whether people move on or their budget changes. And we're like, hey, we understand. So if you get benefit out of this programming, no pressure at all to donate. But if you want to, please go hit the donate button@mormonstories.org you can become a monthly donor, a one time donor. Everything is tax deduct in the United States. All of our finances for the Open Source foundation and the mormonsource podcast are completely what's what I'm looking for. Transparent. Yes, transparency is key. So transparent. And we are trying to upgrade our staff and our lighting and our cameras and huge shout out to Brooklyn and Gerardo and this guy John that also works here that makes this whole show.
Makenzie Benzi [02:04:09] I think we've heard of him.
John Dehlin [02:04:10] Yeah. Have you guys heard of that guy? John Delaney's in here.
Makenzie Benzi [02:04:12] Just briefly.
John Dehlin [02:04:13] He's usually like kicking around in the back whittling sticks. I used a whittling stick joke already earlier, but it was off air, it didn't count. So if you appreciate this programming, please donate. And we really, really support your. We appreciate your support, whether it's just sharing or liking. And we are super grateful for every donation, but every view is also something that warms my cold, cold heart as well. So I have been your host, Kara Braille. Today. Please go easy on me. As Adele would say with me. It's really the fourth time that I've hosted anything.
Makenzie Benzi [02:04:46] You did bring it up. Naturally.
John Dehlin [02:04:47] I did.
Makenzie Benzi [02:04:47] So proud of you. Gold star.
John Dehlin [02:04:49] I hosted before I had a chance to have the world feel the world around me. Does that make sense? That made no sense.
Gerald Benzi [02:04:56] Right.
Makenzie Benzi [02:04:56] Anyway, made sense to me. I don't know if that's valuable to
John Dehlin [02:04:58] you, but my approval before this airs, the only three people in the room, so it makes sense. So we love you. We appreciate you. Thank you. Be kind to one another. Please share this. Please like it, and tune in next time for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. And thanks so much, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Mormon Stories is proud to welcome our first Mormon convert from Zimbabwe, Gerald Benzi, and his wife Makenzie Benzi to the podcast for an epic three part series of their story. In part one, we discuss Gerarld’s life being raised in Zimbabwe, what it was like moving to the US, and deciding to take religion seriously and taking the missionary discussions. Among some of the topics we cover are gender roles, racism, and whether or not missionaries target immigrants. Please join us for this three part series to also learn about Makenzie and how their faith as a couple progressed through the years.
In part 2 of Makenzie and Gerald’s Mormon Story, we dive into Makenzie’s life, what it was like with interracial parents, reconciling racist past church teachings, and studying under Mormon Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein. Among some of the topics we cover are gender disparities in the church, dating and temple marriage, and becoming a nuanced believer. Come back for part 3 as we wrap up Gerald and Makenzie’s Mormon Story and we hope you love this amazing couple as much as we do!
Wrapping up Gerald and Makenzie’s Mormon story, we talk in-depth about how their desire to raise healthy children changed their views on Mormon teachings as well as Gerald’s possible regrets around his baptism. Thanks for joining us on this epic three-part interview with the Benzi’s!
—————
We are 100% donor funded! Please click HERE to donate and keep this content coming!
Click here to donate monthly: $10 $25 $50
—————
Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:
Show Notes:
- Talking with the Benzis podcast by Makenzie and Gerald
- Makenzie’s Instagram
- Makenzie’s lifecoaching and speech therapy
- The CES Letter
- The Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis
- Untamed by Glennon Doyle
- Brene Brown
Patreon
Contact Us!
*PO Box 171085
Salt Lake City, UT 84117
One Response
Every leader (and member) tells of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon
Yet for well over a century those of African ancestry were racially discriminated against
2 Nephi 26:33
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
When Spencer W. Kimball made the announcement of “every worthy male” etc. he was only announcing a change in policy