Introducing the Nest and Launch Blog

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 452

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org. hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and today, as always, I'm very excited to have some guests with us. The two guests are Sarah Jones and Annie Wattups, and they together are the perma bloggers for a really outstanding blog that I think all of my listeners should go check out and pay attention to. The blog is called Nest and Launch.com. so that's Nest as in birdies and then launch as in rockets, Nest and Launch.com. and this blog is dedicated to, as they describe it, mid stage parenting and enjoying life with big kids, preteens and. And teens. So just to speak briefly about the two perma bloggers, and then I'll actually have them speak more about themselves. Annie Wattups grew up in Cache Valley, which speaks very highly of her, I must say. She has three children. She is married. She, let's see, is finishing up her PhD at Tufts University, which for those of you who don't know, that's in Boston, very fancy school. And she's studying developmental psychology with an emphasis in child development. Is that right, Annie?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:02:00] That's right. And parenting.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] And parenting. And she's a great writer. So, Annie Wattups, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:02:09] Thank you so much. It's good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Excellent. Okay. And Sarah Jones, I know her as Sarah Brenner. She is a human. She is alive. That's an inside joke. We were joking about that before. No, seriously. She is the mother of four. I know Sarah because when I was growing up in Katy, Texas, Sarah was living. Where did you live? What was your area called, Sarah?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:02:40] Memorial.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] Memorial. She was living in Memorial. And we actually were pretty good friends, would you say, Sarah?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:02:47] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] We even went out on a couple dates. Is that right?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:02:51] Yeah, we did.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] I think I have like a. Is it a homecoming? What is it?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:02:54] I think it was like a junior prom.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Yeah. Picture with lots of hairspray involved, or at least that's how I remember it. But Sarah, we grew up in the same stake and she has since done much better in the sense that she is. She is doing lots of cool things, but specifically, she is a PhD candidate in English literature at Texas A and M. So she's an Aggie and she's a big fan of Johnny. What's his last name?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:03:28] Well, we like to call him Johnny Football. Johnny Football Manziel, actually.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Johnny Manziel. Are you, Are you a Johnny Manziel fan?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:03:35] I am intrigued by Johnny Manziel, but really I'm a BYU fan.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Okay. Well, yeah, you did go to byu, right?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:03:41] I did, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] And Sarah, did you call yourself a feminist when we were growing up?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:03:48] I'm sure I did. Boy's really been pro women's rights.

John Dehlin [00:03:52] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to say that Sarah is the first person that I ever really met who self identified as a feminist. Now, I, I don't know if your views, if you still claim that term, maybe we can get into that. But, you know, you've always been someone who kind of a strong, thoughtful advocate of women and of men. So anyway, I'm just really excited to have you both on and to talk about Nest and Launch.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:04:22] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Was that a lengthy. Was that an overly lengthy introduction?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:04:27] I enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Okay. All right. All right. Well, so I, I learned of your blog through my wife. And so it's funny because, Sarah, you reached out to me a couple years ago and just said, hey, it's been a long time. And so we reconnected and I kind of. And then, you know, you know, life happened. And then my wife tells me about this amazing blog that she's been reading. And my wife has exquisite taste in blogs and in literature and in parenting and all sorts of wonderful things. And so she keeps talking to me about Nest and Launch. And finally I look at the picture on the front page and I'm like, that's Sarah. And so we've been wanting to interview you guys for a long time. And so I guess I wanted to start with just a brief introduction of each of you. I've given you a little bit, but maybe I'll just ask you each to talk a little bit more just about your background and specifically the types of things that led you to want to blog. So, Annie, why don't we start with you?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:05:35] Sure.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:05:37] Yeah.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:05:37] So as you said, I grew up in Logan, Utah, and had the chance to move east, and I spent most of my adult life on the east coast in Boston and Washington, D.C. and while I was there, I always knew I wanted to go back to grad school, but I wasn't quite yet sure what I wanted to do. And I was an English major and loved writing, but had a bit of an epiphany, actually, through a church calling while I was there. I was the young women's president in this ward that had quite a bit of. That included quite a bit of urban areas. And so as I was working with these young women who almost to a person, none of them had a dad at home anymore. And there were a lot of interesting challenges that they were facing. And I was thinking a lot about where you approach problems and how you help people. And I realized that the reason I was interested in literature and the reason a lot of things drove me is I was really interested in understanding people and how they develop. And at the time we were in D.C. but as it turns out, my husband had a job change and there was a program at Tufts that I had my eye on even back when we were living in D.C. so I applied and went and got my master's there and then took a year off and worked and then went back for my PhD after that. And my interests in particular, they started with parenting in early childhood and attachment relationships. But over time those have broadened and I'm really interested in looking at parenting and the beliefs that we bring to parenting and how those affect our interactions with our children. So for me, it was kind of a natural thing to be blogging. I process things through writing and so I've kind of used it as a way to chronicle our family's life. But it also has, in the last year since we started Nest and Launch, given me a place to write about my thinking and apply a lot of the things that I'm thinking about in the research world to my own family and to think about how we sort of communicate some of the things that we know in the world of psychology to people in their families. Like in real life, when you're around the dinner table. So it's been a joy. I've really loved doing this with Sarah and have found in her a real compatriot and kind of blog soul sister.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Have you guys ever met face to face?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:08:08] One time?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:08:08] Once, yeah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:08:11] For like an hour.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:08:13] We did. We met at Kneaders in Provo for about an hour. And as I remember, Sarah Sterling was a little nervous about you meeting this strange woman that you knew on the Internet.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:08:25] I don't think so.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:08:26] No, no.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:08:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Sarah, was he worried you were going to run off with her?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:08:31] Is that what I think? Any Internet formed relationship is kind of suspect.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] That's true. It's true.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:08:38] The neaters we got out was a sketchy. It was. All

John Dehlin [00:08:42] right, Sarah. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:08:44] I was just saying that's kind of actually, you know, I. Whenever. You know, Annie and I have only met for that one time face to face, so that's definitely something that, you know. I would like to actually get to spend some real time with her.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] Yeah, well, that's convenient. Since she lives in Australia, maybe you can take a trip.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:09:02] That's true. I forgot to mention in my intro, I now live in Australia. We moved from Boston to Australia about a year ago and we'll be here for another three years or so, so. Okay, just a little note.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] You gotta come to Cache Valley at least for Christmas. Right?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:09:14] We are going to. Actually. We'll be there this year.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] Oh.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:09:18] Very excited for a white Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Oh, okay, excellent. We'll come swing by and visit Marky and myself.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:09:24] Yeah, we'll have to connect.

Annie and Sarah's Backgrounds and How They Met

John Dehlin [00:09:26] All right. All right, Sarah, tell us your background.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:09:29] Well, as you said, I grew up in Houston. Well, actually, I went to high school in Houston. I actually grew up in some small Texas towns and then spent my high school years in Houston.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Wait, did you grow up in Brenham?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:09:43] Actually grew up in Schulenburg and also Seeley, which are both off of Itin. So kind of the small town experience growing up, which was great. We lived on a farm and had a horse and was a Texas girl. And then I went to BYU for my undergrad and met my. Well, I knew my husband. I knew him from Houston, but we actually started dating there and got married after my freshman year so I could fulfill every Mormon stereotype available.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Excellent.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:10:14] And then we moved. After we both graduated, we moved back to Houston and had our four kids here. And when our oldest was, I think she was 10, I had always wanted to go back to graduate school, but I just couldn't figure out how to make it work. I tried applying at Rice, but it just wasn't working. My husband was traveling all the time. I couldn't quite figure out how to make it work. But Sterling had a real desire to get an mba. And so when Jordan was, I guess our oldest was about 10 and our youngest was 2, we just started looking into programs and Baylor offered both of us a full scholarship. And so we sold our house and packed up our kids and moved to Waco and were at Baylor for two years and then actually came back to Houston for a job. And I kind of thought maybe I would just teach at a community college.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] That was for a master's for you.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:11:08] Yes, in English literature. And then we were probably after another year, I really missed graduate school and really wanted to move on. And so I started a graduate program at Texas A. And M. Where? And I feel like I've been doing it for a million years, but hopefully I'll finish my dissertation in 20th century British lit sometime in the very near future.

John Dehlin [00:11:33] Excellent.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:11:34] But we pretty much raised. I feel like I raised my kids while I was in graduate school, because My oldest was 10 when I started, and I'm still not really done. And she's 19 now, so.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] And she just got her mission call, Right.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:11:47] She's actually been out almost six months now.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] Oh, I guess almost is a relative term.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:11:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Yeah. Okay, cool. She's in France, right?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:11:56] She is.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] That's exciting.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:11:59] Yeah, it's really exciting.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] All right. And just for the listeners, there's a little video clip of Sarah's daughter opening her mission call. I love the scream at the end, so you guys have to check that out. It's a really fun video. Okay, so let's see. So tell us how you guys met. Sarah, why don't I have you start this one?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:12:22] Well, you know, I asked Annie earlier today if she can remember we met through. We both had personal blogs, and I guess technically we still have personal blogs, although Annie is better about posting on hers than mine. And I can't remember if I found her blog or she found my blog, but something about us both being in PhD programs, both being Mormon, there was a lot of similarities, and somehow our blogs connected and we started communicating through comments on our blogs and via email.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:12:53] And then it kind of turned into a little bit bigger of a connection because we started, as I remember, Sarah, correct me if I'm wrong, about maybe two years ago, we started kind of a support group of dissertation writing where we would just report to each other how long we had written that day. Just sort of like a. Just somebody to account to that wasn't in your household.

John Dehlin [00:13:16] Right.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:13:18] And so, you know, we started just writing little supportive notes to each other. And over time, it's become like a really good friendship. And I think we still probably communicate almost every day. Just kind of check in and exchange some messages and few jokes, and it's great.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] Well, being someone who's also working on his dissertation, I have to ask whether Nested Launch is one huge avoidance project to actually avoid writing.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:13:46] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Go ahead.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:13:51] Well, one of the reasons. I guess I didn't say this in my original thing, but one of the reasons I wanted to start Nest and Launch is because I did want a different kind of writing that was completely separate from academic writing. And so it is. I mean, it's the best procrastinatory project in the world. So.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Got it.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:14:09] I totally agree. I can kind of claim it's a little bit related to at least my area, but it's not at all helping me get those pages done. But I love it, and it is a great outlet.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] Sounds very dangerous to me, but that's the guy who runs a podcast.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:14:24] That's right.

The Philosophy Behind Nest and Launch

John Dehlin [00:14:26] All right, so, Annie, why don't you tell us a little bit about the name Nest and Launch. I read the subtitle, but tell us what you're trying to do there, and then, Sarah, you can add to what Annie says.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:14:40] Sure. Well, we noticed as bloggers ourselves, and I'm a big blog fan, and I love to read them. There was definitely a preponderance of bloggers, parent bloggers, who were raising really young children. And then there are some really great blogs that are just generally for parenthood. But we really missed having a voice or reading someone that really resonated with us who was in that stage of raising kids between, say, the ages of 10 and 20.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] Who are some of the bloggers that you've followed or that you followed prior to Nestle Launch? Like, the biggest names.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:15:19] Oh, I love Mom. I love Design Mom. Yeah. So that's Gabby Blair. She's also a member of the church, and she has probably one of the biggest parenthood blogs. Oh, I'm going to draw a blank because I'm on the screen.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Did you guys follow Nene and.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:15:37] Sure. Yep. And see Jane and. Yeah. There are so many that are really doing wonderful things, and yet, as we read them, kind of noticed that we were experiencing things that weren't really being captured or had questions or needed sort of a community. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges at this stage is that, you know, the playground goes away where you used to hang out or play dates go away where you used to kind of commiserate with other parents and exchange ideas. And at the same time, you're encountering whole new situations, and you want to have some place where you can kind of have, like, a reality check or an insanity check. And so because of that, and as you're Nest and Launch, of course, was meant to imply, this is the stage when you're still nesting, you're still teaching, and you're still creating traditions and memories with your kids, and you're really savoring it, maybe in a way that you didn't before, because you're seeing the end in sight. But at the same time, it's a time of launching and time to kind of pull back and hand over Some more independence and encourage that at the same time. So that's the perspective we come from, is kind of enjoying and making the best of these mid stage years and yet acknowledging that sometimes are really tough and that there are some, you know, some really interesting things that you've not yet encountered as a parent.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] All right, Sarah, what can you add? Or is that, is that your summary too?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:17:16] No, I would say that that's my summary too. If I had to add anything, I think I would add that. I think when we started this, Annie had already sent her oldest daughter to college. I hadn't yet. And I think that the blog has changed a little bit for me now that I've sent two kids, I've launched two kids off and that there is, you know, there is a component to the launching that's really, you know, personal and emotional and psychological on the mother who's, you know, or the father who has, you know, spent so much time, invested so much day to day energy into that, into that child. And then once that's removed, you know, it's just, it's a strange process and I think everybody experiences a little bit differently. But, but I think I didn't originally think that that would be something I would want to discuss on the blog, but has become more prominent for me at least.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] Got it. Okay. Was there any intention to have sort of Annie cover the social science kind of stuff and to have Sarah cover the humanities kind of stuff like arts and literature versus parenting? Was that also kind of part of the conception?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:18:29] No, not really. I mean, it has, I think Annie has done some really great posts that have drawn from her academic expertise, but we don't really have an editorial agenda that's formulated in that way. In fact, you know, it's just kind of up to each of us to come up with our posts. And sometimes we coordinate and sometimes we don't. So it's all up for grabs. In fact, when I originally kind of envisioned it, I really envisioned it being more of a mommy blog, but for older mom, you know, mommies of older children. And it's not quite our day to day life, but I still think that we draw quite a bit from our day to day experiences and what our kids are going through at any given moment.

What Parents Love Most About This Stage

John Dehlin [00:19:14] Okay. All right. Okay, good. So let's talk about some of the things you love most about the nest and lawns phase and some of the things you like least. Sarah, we'll have you start.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:19:30] I think what I like the least about the stage of parenting is less control. I really do like having a lot of control. I like having all my kids when they were little, tucked into bed at 8 and the day was done and I knew where everyone was. And now that's not the case. You know, I have a 16 year old who might be out driving her car, and that's nerve wracking.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] Yeah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:19:54] And I have a child who's somewhere in France, you know, and sometimes I don't know where she is in France, if she's been transferred, and I haven't talked to her. So there is less control, which I don't find enjoyable. I think that there's higher stakes. Obviously, when you have a kid in high school, I mean, every grade counts. It's not like in junior high where, oh, you know, you gotta be. This time it's, you know, no big deal because nobody's tracking that. Whereas. And, you know, and the mistakes that they might make have bigger stakes and bigger consequences. So I would say, you know, higher stakes, bigger worries. You know, that saying, you know, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems. I think that is not quite as fun or I think is a challenge to big kid parenting. But there's also, I think, lots of perks. One of those being that you do really have more time for yourself. I had a girl that's in our church and she emailed me not too long ago, and she has lots of little. She has four little kids at home. And I can remember that phase. And she just said, you know, she was actually looking for advice. You know, how can I. I feel like I'm losing myself in this. In this process. I don't have time to think or to read or to do any of the things that I felt made me me. And I remembered those times. And it is much different now. I have time to read and to think and to write and to, you know, to do those kinds of things that I think are kind of central to my identity. And I just think, you know, the interaction with my kids now is really fun. Engaging in their interests, having conversations with them, you know, doing things together. It's just a whole different ball game.

John Dehlin [00:21:41] Got it. All right, Annie, what would you add?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:21:45] I totally agree. I talked about, you know, earlier I talked about the loneliness. I think from the perspective of the parent, it is, you know, a different stage where you really don't have the same network unless you're really mindful about developing it. And I think I agree with the control. I think as a parent, you're shifting from kind of a benevolent dictatorship to more of a consultant and that's not always a really smooth transition. And I think. I know I've made mistakes, and my kids have made mistakes on both ends of that. And I think that's just negotiating that new phase. And I think your family changes a lot. You've kind of maybe figured it out a little bit, and then suddenly, you know, there's hormones, there's new opinions, there's lots of things that happen, and you can kind of feel like you have different personalities in your house. And so those are the challenges that I think of that come to mind. But I adore this stage. And I think they get a bad. These years, get a bad rap, because they are. They're wonderful in how you can see your kids, you know, developing as the people they'll become. And you have conversations with them that have quite a lot of depth and nuance. And I don't know, I. I think it's a great stage.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] I agree. I'm resonating with lots that you guys are saying. Gals are saying. So I'm curious and. And I'll just be. I'll just be honest. My wife helped me with these questions, and she did a great job. Just want to give a shout out to Margi really quick. But one of the questions my wife wanted me to ask was about the cornerstones of your family life. You know, kind of stereotypically, well, within LDS culture, you know, there's scripture study, there's family prayer, there's family home evening, you know, and even, you know, outside of LDS culture, there's just sort of in Western traditions, and maybe all traditions, kind of family meals, family vacations, maybe work on Saturday. But we were kind of curious to know what are kind of the cornerstones of each of your family's lives. Kind of the things that you really emphasize and that you really build erect is a framework for a happy and healthy family. And I'll start with you this time, Annie.

Family Rituals and Cornerstones of Home Life

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:24:08] Okay. For us, the first thing that comes to mind is kind of this end of the day gather that we tend to do. It's not really that it's been institutionalized. It's just we all end up on the couches after dinner, after everybody's kind of. And dinner is part of it. Although sometimes, you know, with scheduling, that doesn't happen every single night, but every night we end up. And I love these moments where you're just all on. We're all on the sofas talking about our day and kind of. And connecting. We do end it with family prayer, but a lot of it is Just that coming together, we go out into the world and it's that moment of all coming back together and spending some time together.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] And then I think, wait, is that a formal thing? Do you, like, round everybody up?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:24:57] Yeah, it isn't really. I think it's just something that's evolved and remarkably, everybody likes it enough to not need to be coerced.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] So around what time does this start happening?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:25:10] I would say like 8:30 or 9.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] And is your husband there?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:25:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] Okay. So mom and dad are sitting on the couch. The kids start gathering around.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:25:19] Yeah. Just kind of. People kind of roll in and, you know, it's funny, years ago I went on a study abroad with BYU to London for six months. And it is something that I brought forward from then because I remember loving the end of the day. We would kind of have like singing and everyone would come back from their museums and their plays and everything and kind of share what they did. And it was just really. My husband served a mission in Denmark, so we used the word hoogly, which is kind of. It just means like that feeling of being together with people that you love. And so I think that's kind of what we. That was the intention behind what has evolved into kind of our nightly ritual. Yeah. So it's kind of just. And then people might scatter and go finish homework or go watch a TV show.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] How long would this period average last? I'm just trying to get a sense for it.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:26:16] It'd be like anywhere. It's kind of organic, actually. So it'd be anywhere from like 20 minutes to an hour.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] And, you know, your kids naturally want to volunteer information.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:26:29] Yeah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:26:29] You know, so.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:26:31] Yeah, I mean, and it's the kind of thing where somebody will bring a laptop and show a YouTube clip that was funny or somebody, you know, will talk about something that happened in the world or it's kind of like we leave all of that. Kind of have to do, should do. Have you done this checklist kind of thing? And we just. We just spend some time together as people that like each other. And I'll admit there was a time, I'm sure, when this would not have worked so well. But right now it might be that we picked up our roots and moved to Australia and we kind of need each other, but it's been really wonderful.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:27:08] So that's.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:27:08] I think that's a cornerstone of our family right now.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] I'm just going to self disclose that I think I'm the world's worst psychologist because I've got three older daughters and particularly with the two oldest, I always want to know all about their life. And so I'm always like, tell me about your day and, you know, what happened on your date and what are your thoughts and feelings? And those direct questions for me often just seem to totally backfire. And the minute I'm showing interest, you know, my daughters can sometimes just completely clam up. And so I'm trying to imagine, you know, we have some of this, but it's not. Certainly not daily, and it's certainly not institutionalized. And I'm trying to figure out how I would do it in a way that wouldn't create more resistance.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:27:54] Yeah, I think. I mean, that is the key. And I agree. I think the best conversations happen. I call it shoulder to shoulder time. So if you're working together, you're driving together, you know, if you're not staring at each other in the eyes, I think it really helps because you're next to each other, you're on equal footing. And. And I think these things have to evolve and gather. You're right. Teenagers see right through programs, Capital P programs. And I think. Yeah. So as a cornerstone, I would say right now that's an important one for us.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] So I'm going to start hiring you guys as a consultant. Just so you guys have a fee, I'm going to hire you out. Okay, keep going. Other cornerstones.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:28:37] Sounds good. Oh, I was just going to mention a couple others. I think that having a family lexicon of jokes is a cornerstone for us, like kind of inside jokes and phrases that we use quite a bit. And that also helps when you have kids far away at college or on missions, because you can still connect in that way.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] So give us an example of a joke.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:28:56] Oh, my goodness. I'm the worst memory person. What am I going to do?

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Oh, okay. I don't want to put you on the spot if you don't.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:29:01] Yeah, I won't be able to pull one out. I'm sorry, but just kind of.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] No, don't worry about it. I hate being put on the spot.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:29:10] I just thought if I think of one later, I'll go.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Okay, that's fine. No worries.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:29:15] But those are the ones that come to mind when you ask that question.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] Okay, Those are great.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:29:18] Traditional, but.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] All right, so I'm going to hope that your subconscious kicks something forward, because I want to understand that better, but I'm not going to put you on the spot. All right, Sarah, tell us some of your pillars.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:29:30] Well, I don't want my pillars to pale to Annie's pillars. It's like pillar pressure now. I think that ours. I think family dinner is one thing I could point to that's really been continual since my kids were little, till they're older, we've always had family dinner. And for about the first 15 years, I think, of being a mom, I really hated to cook, but I forced myself to do it. But over the last couple years, I've really started to enjoy cooking, and that's been more of a creative outlet. So the kids really expect a pretty, you know, decent, fancy dinner Monday through Thursday, or Sunday through Thursday, I should say so. And that's usually about the time the strolling gets home. So he's usually home maybe 10 or 15 minutes before we sit down to dinner. I think that cornerstones for us move kind of seasonally. And right now we're, I think, fumbling a little bit because now there's just four of us, and usually there's, you know, in the past, there's been six, and that's. That's quite a deficit. So we're struggling a little bit to kind of find our place with just two kids.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] Okay, so you have a daughter on a mission. You have a daughter on a mission.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:30:43] I have a daughter on a mission, and I have a daughter at byu.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Oh, okay.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:30:47] And they're only, you know, they're just a year apart in school, so we just kind of lost them. Boom, boom. And I have three daughters. My oldest, three are girls, and so they were all very close. And so my daughter that's home Now, Rebecca, she's 16, and so she's kind of left without her sisters. And so that's really changed. I mean, the family dynamic has changed, changed drastically.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] So how old's your youngest?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:31:11] He's 12.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] So you. He's not that much of a caboose. So you just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then you're done.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:31:18] I was very serious. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] You got him done.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:31:21] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] Okay. Okay. Got it.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:31:23] All right, so. So I know, like, this year we've. Sterling and I have made a real effort to take the kids to the high school football games, even though we don't really have anyone participating this year. That's something we've done in the past. And the kids go off and sit with their friends and have fun, but we have dinner beforehand. You know, we ride to the game. We've tried to incorporate some things, you know, going out to eat, you know, maybe on Wednesdays. I wrote a blog post about many traditions where when Parker had his cross country meets on Wednesdays, we would go as a family to the meet and then we would have Chick Fil A on the way home because we had young men's and young women's that night. And we had to kind of fit dinner in between. And the kids started calling it Chick Fil A Wednesday. And, you know, we just tried to find things throughout the week that the kids can kind of count on that we're all there doing together. One of the things, and I've mentioned this before on the blog, in fact, recently, that Charlie and I were really looking for something that our family could do together that we felt like would carry through into their adulthoods. And so we decided we would try skiing, even though we live in Texas. And that seems strange. And that has really worked out to be something that everybody in our family really loves and looks forward to doing together every year. And so we try to go up once or twice.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Colorado or Utah?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:32:46] Well, one of my. One of my daughters has skied Colorado, but as a family, we've only skied Utah.

John Dehlin [00:32:50] Okay.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:32:52] So. But I think that we are. That's one of the things that Sterling and I are working on is what kinds of family things are going to be appealing to our kids as they're gone? You know, what kinds of things are they going to be excited about coming home to do with us or gathering in a, you know, a location to do. And that's become kind of a big thing. We're planning a trip, will be up in Utah for Christmas. And so that's been really fun, I think, trying to find things that our adultish kind of kids like to do together.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Okay, quick question about that. So do you go for a week?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:33:29] Yeah, for about this year we're gonna go. We're gonna go for a week.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] And do you go to the same place every time?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:33:35] We have kind of settled on Deer Valley.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Okay.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:33:39] We skied Park City the first year. This is the third year that we've done it. Last year we actually went up in January and kind of took the kids out of school for a couple days and there was a long weekend. But this year we're going back up for Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] And so you're have all the presents there.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:33:57] We will have all the presents.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] That's exciting.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:33:59] That's the nice thing about having big kids is you don't have to put on. Really put on the Santa production so you can have Christmas away from home.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] Okay. So do you ski all day long and then hang out at night? I mean, what's.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:34:12] Yeah, yeah. And that's what's great about it. I mean, you know, we get there about nine, the kids will do ski school. We'll have a private instructor for a little bit, or we'll just ski together. We all meet together back and have lunch and people will kind of go off in different groups and configurations. And, you know, two of the girls will ski together and maybe, you know, strolling with another one of the girls. And we kind of mix it up depending upon level. And my level is very low, so nobody really wants to ski with me. But then at the end of the day, we'll have dinner together and we'll tell stories about all the horrific wipeouts that we had during the day. And then the kids are so exhausted, everyone's so exhausted that they go to sleep early. And it's become a really great vacation for us because we've had lots of vacations where we are like, all right, we're going to go see this city. And we're trying to come up with things that an 18 year old girl wants to do, an 11 year old boy wants to do. And yeah, it's difficult, but this is something that everybody likes to do. And also there's a lot of freedom in it. You're outside, you're not necessarily confined with an annoying sibling all day and people seem to get along. It's low stress.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Okay.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:35:20] An element I really liked about too is that you guys were all learning together and so everyone was sort of on an even playing field. It wasn't like expert versus novice. It was everybody kind of jumping in there together.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:35:32] Yes, that was fun. Except for now, the kids have really taken off me, not as much.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] Okay, all right. That's good. That's a good pillar. I like it. Your pillar is every bit as good as Annie's.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:35:46] Sarah, thank you. I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] Did you have. Did you have something else you're gonna say?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:35:52] I don't think so. I think that one of the important things though, with big kids, though, is just to kind of to be flexible, to look for things that your family wants to do together, but those aren't always going to be the same things. Like we had this kind of running thing where we would always play games together, like card games or board games on Sunday nights. We did that for probably 18 months, two years, and then I don't know exactly what changed that, but I don't know if it was a scheduling thing or somebody was gone or what, but that kind of faded out. And as a parent, you know, Strong and I are always looking for things that the Kids might enjoy doing, you know, with us, and those things I think come and go, and that's okay to be organic about it.

John Dehlin [00:36:35] Got it. Okay. So since this is Mormon stories, I'm going to push back and say I want you guys each to talk about briefly to what extent you do incorporate some type of religious or spiritual stuff. You know, again, they're the stereotypical things that, you know, Mormons are supposed to do, but then oftentimes, you know, those are difficult to do consistently, like family home meeting or scripture study or whatever. So are there, you know, religious or spiritual things that you've tried and not been so successful with? And then are there things that you have tried and actually have been successful with or not? So, Sarah, I'll throw it to you first.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:37:18] I think we have been pretty good about successful with scripture study and super unsuccessful with family home evening, and that we've just been really spotty with that as the kids have gotten older. I think we were great about it when they were little and everybody was involved in the treat and the prayer and those kinds of things. What we're doing right now that I think is really working for one of our kids is that my daughter Rebecca, who's 16, she goes to early morning seminary and she gets up at 5, and when she comes down to have breakfast, she and I will read a chapter in the Book of Mormon together before she leaves even to go to seminary. And we started that because during part of the year she can't attend seminary because she's doing. She runs cross country and they have practice in the morning. So for the first couple months of the year, she's doing that. And so we were reading the Scriptures together before she left to kind of A, keep her caught up on her seminary and B, just give her a little kind of spiritual enlightenment before she left. And we've kept that up because it's kind of a nice thing that we do together. And I enjoy it. I don't know how much she enjoys it. She doesn't say she doesn't enjoy it or fight it.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] Now, do you read it to her? Does she read it to you? Do you take turns every verse?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:38:32] We take turns every six verses, actually. And she's eating her breakfast as we're doing it.

John Dehlin [00:38:37] So she's chomping on cereal as she's reading.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:38:39] Yes.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:38:40] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] All right.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:38:41] We used to do every three verses, but to allow her a little bit more time to eat, we switched it to I am like, flexible like that.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] You're very flexible.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:38:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] And do you how Much talking, how much actual discussion is there versus, like, we got to get through the chapter kind of thing.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:38:56] You know, especially, like, when we were doing the Isaiah chapters, we would kind of try to situate ourselves before. Or I would try to try to situate us before we started reading so that there could be some, you know, some increased comprehension, like, where are we? What's happening here? We also. In the evenings, and we haven't been good about this lately, but in the evenings, she and I would work. When she wasn't in seminary, she and I would work on the scripture mastery verses together, and I was memorizing them alongside of her, and we would kind of challenge each other. And that actually lent itself, I think, to better discussion about what the scripture meant and how we could apply it in our life, that kind of a thing.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] Okay, very good. All right. Any. Anything else, Sarah, or should we go to Annie?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:39:39] Go to Annie.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] Okay, Annie.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:39:42] So we do have family prayer and scripture along with that kind of hangout period. It's usually how we kind of end it. And we also do prayers in the morning, depending, you know, whoever's here. We have kind of a. Our school has an interesting schedule in that there's quite a few before school classes and activities.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] And how do you guys do scripture study? How does that work for you guys?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:40:07] We have done different things. We were one of those families that when we were asked to read the Book of Mormon in a year, it took us like, six years.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] Awesome.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:40:15] So sometimes it's a verse or it's a verse before we say the prayer, but we usually try one or two chapters. We have also switched it up and done things besides the Book of Mormon. We've done, you know, the New Testament, and we tried the Old Testament, but we didn't find that we stuck with it very well on that particular book of Scripture. But we read it out loud. And for a while, they asked us for mom and dad to read it out loud so they kind of got the sense of it a little bit more because we could kind of read it more like a. I don't know, make it more come alive is how they felt. But we. And then for family home evening, it has evolved very much as we've grown as a family. And there are a couple of consistent things. Someone, you know, will usually have a spiritual thought. It won't. It won't always be, you know, a lesson, but someone will bring a question, and we'll all talk about how we feel about that, you know, that question, and kind of look in the Scriptures and figure out just some of the answers related to that question. Something like, you know, something related to faith or something related to, you know, why did. I'm trying to think about why did

John Dehlin [00:41:36] Nephi jump off the head of Laban?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:41:38] Yeah, yeah. Or oh, isn't it interesting that, you know, the angel asks Nephi over and over, what desirest thou? So why does he ask that question? And what do you desire? And what do our desires have to do with what the outcomes are for us? And things like that. But one thing I really like about family home evening is we always have a mom minute. And it's sort of. I spend all week long trying to decide what my mom minute is going to be. And sometimes it's something like, we all really need to be better about flushing the toilet after we're done, or I'm not seeing as many pairs of underwear as I usually do in the laundry. Or it can be something like practicing looking people in the eye when we talk to adults or something like that. But it's kind of like a real nugget of information to help them be better and more awesome grownups, I think, is how I look at it.

John Dehlin [00:42:31] Two quick things. I love the idea when we do family evening, it's just so structured. It's like beforehand, Margi and I are like, all right, who's going to teach the lesson? What's the topic going to be? And then somebody does, you know, prayer, and then the song and then the lesson and then the dessert. You know what I mean? But I love this idea of just having people bring a question and everybody discussing it. That's something that I don't think. I'm someone who likes control, at least I don't think of myself that way as much. But that idea, I really like that. Yeah, I really like the informality of that.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:43:12] Yeah.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:43:12] And I think it serves a couple of purposes. And one is that I think the more we can encourage really great and productive ways of treating our questions and acknowledging that we all have them. And they can range from, I don't get this, I find this hard to believe. To connecting the dots between different aspects of the doctrine. I just think. And that's one of the joys of the stage as well. You know, I wouldn't do that with an 8 year old or with a 5 year old or with an 11 year old. But when you're in early teens and teens, you have the basics and it's okay to kind of start articulating and adding and finding, you know, shades, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] Yep. And the thing I like about your mom minute is that I. I find that when I. Let's say, I observe something in my children that I. That I feel needs discussion, I find that if I bring that up as. As the action occurs again, it often creates or creates resistance. So this idea of waiting until a dedicated time, sort of out of context of when the event is actually occurring, my guess is that builds less resistance and makes the kids more amenable to the suggestion. Is that part of the strategy?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:44:36] Yeah.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:44:37] Yeah. And you can. Depending on what it is, you can keep it pretty anonymous. Although sometimes people, you know, of course, you can guess which thing arose from what incident. And it also, I can. I can add. It gives me enough distance that I can add some humor to it or. Yeah, it's much more palatable if it's, you know, it's the kitschy mom minute, and. I don't know, it works for us.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] Okay. All right. Good, good. Okay. So Margi's got another great question for you guys. She. She wrote, you know, that in. In our experience, there's sort of this spiritual component to parenting. And I think when she says spiritual, she doesn't necessarily mean, like, religious. I think she means more like we have these histories as individuals, sometimes painful histories. Sometimes we bring things from our childhood that. That then come into play in a difficult way because we can be triggered by either a spouse or by our children in ways that can really, really send our tempers flaring. And so, especially if there are past wounds. And so Margi wanted to know how you guys handle these times when your children or family dynamic really triggers you and to what extent you use spirituality in sort of the non church related sense to pull yourself together and try and respond in a more Zen like way, or if you don't, if you just get angry, you know how you deal with that. But, you know, I hope you can get the sense for the question that Margi's asking and if you have any experiences that you want to share. We love stories on Mormon stories. So, Annie, I'll start with you on the side.

Responding to Children's Struggles Without Projecting

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:46:34] Great.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:46:34] Well, I love this question. It's kind of in my wheelhouse of parent beliefs. And Sylvia Freiberg in the 70s wrote an article called Angels in the Nursery that I love. And it's that very concept that as you're parenting, things come up. Well, actually, she wrote one called Ghosts in the Nursery, and then there was a response article called Angels in the Nursery, which is the concept that our childhoods and growing up have a lot of nooks and crannies where we can have hang ups and pain and injury, but also delight. And those things come up as we then turn around and parent children. And I find that to be very true. And gosh, I can think of an experience that's really quite silly. But I think we often come at and respond to our kids from the memory of our own experience. And so sometimes we make assumptions that just aren't right. And there was a time I desperately wanted glasses when I was young. And I even tried to fake the eye test to get glasses because I just thought they looked so cool and I wanted glasses and I wanted to be that smart looking girl with glasses. But I never got them until I was in my now forties and my eyes are failing me. But my daughter came home and she kept saying, I think I need glasses. And I immediately went to that place of faking in my youth. And so I just thought, nah, you don't need glasses, Nah, you don't need glasses. And I kept telling her no, no, no. And I kind of just projected my own experience on her. And of course the end of the story is she did need glasses. And I think that's kind of a metaphor, I think sometimes for how we approach our kids needs and their experiences are often hard to separate from our own. But I think that, I think as we resolve those things though, it's a really a wonderful part of the family process in that we can kind of vicariously experience those things again and heal things that might have gone wrong the first time around. I remember my dad telling me the story, story when he was young about how his father, my dad was the very youngest and was a caboose. And so his dad was quite old and he remembers his dad being quite an old man as a young, as my dad was growing up. And his dad would tell his other son to correct my dad. So he would tell his other son, please go tell your brother that he's leaving the towels on the floor and it's not good or that he hasn't been responsible in this way. So there was never any direct communication. It was always something sort of this handed down thing. And that stuck with me because I realized that my dad had made a mindful choice to be a more engaged parent. And that even as we all do, as you have conflict, I could see in that story and I was grateful that he shared it with me, the efforts that he was going through to be a better parent. And I think that's one way we can also help our kids is to Explain to them at times where you're coming from, you know, that you without, you know, depending on the age and what they're ready for, I think that it's entirely appropriate to share backgrounds that might lead you to give the silent treatment when you're mad or, you know, however, whatever is sort of arising in your relationship, that's based on that earlier process. And. But I think I do lean on that concept that I think Mormonism supports very well, and that is that we're all just walking each other home. And I think as parents, you know, and with the concept of a pre existence being spiritual brothers and sisters, that kind of perspective helps me as a parent to understand that we are all making mistakes, we're all trying our best, and ultimately we all are on our own paths. And that as parents, if we can be a supportive partner on that walk home, then things are going to be okay.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] I like that metaphor. Walking each other home. That's good. All right. Sarah, how about you?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:50:59] I agree with Annie. I was trying to think of things, I think, especially for my kids who were younger, that I might have felt triggered by. And I don't have any great examples of those other than, I think, really positive ones in that my parents, my mom especially, was really big about, you know, family traditions, especially around holidays and birthdays. And a lot of those things I felt really, I felt particularly strong about instituting in my own family without even really thinking about kind of what the costs were, labor wise, financially, emotionally. And so I just carried those things on without really, I think, thinking about them. And sometimes that was great and sometimes it didn't end up working out for our family as well. But I think probably my biggest experience, I think, in this matter was as my kid, my girls started finishing high school. I think because that time is fresher in my memory, I started really remembering, you know, what I felt like when I was in their eight at their age and doing some of the same things they were doing, applying for college or going to senior prom or, you know, what those things were like for me. And it was hard for me not to kind of superimpose my own expectations and feelings on theirs and kind of step back and let them lead. Particularly when I was, you know, junior senior in high school and then on into college, my parents were really in a bad shape financially and, you know, they couldn't help me, you know, go to college or get to college or pay for college or buy anything for college. And so I really wanted to overcomp. I mean, overcompensate for my girls, and I wanted to give them everything that I had ever, you know, conceived of that I might have wanted at that age. You know, I wanted them to have a nice car, and I wanted them to, you know, basically have everything that I didn't have at that time. And when I took them up to byu, you know, I wanted to outfit their rooms and make sure they had everything they needed. And I kept saying to them, you know, isn't this great? I mean, you don't have to worry about. Worry about this and, you know, isn't this awesome? And if I had had this when I was, you know, your age, it would. I would have been so happy. And they kept kind of saying, yeah, yeah. I mean, they were very grateful. It wasn't that they weren't. But it finally dawned on me with my oldest, when she was. I was checking her into the dorms, that she hasn't ever missed any of this. So she doesn't. She doesn't understand that lack. She doesn't understand where I'm coming from. From. So even though she's appreciative, she can't. She can't appreciate it in the way that I'm appreciating it. It doesn't mean the same thing to her that it means to me now, you know, as an adult, kind of reliving this experience in the way that I would have wanted to, you know, to relive it. So that was. That was kind of interesting, you know, to kind of put myself back and forth between those time periods. And I don't think that the girls really noticed, but I think that I kind of maybe came to some better understandings of, you know, who I was kind of being on my own at 18 and out of the house.

John Dehlin [00:54:14] Yeah. Parenthood can be a mirror, can't it?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:54:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Yeah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:54:18] Sometimes it's not attractive.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] The mirror never lies, right?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:54:24] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] Yeah. Well, that kind of ties into Annie's theme with the glasses, doesn't it? We tend to project on our kids. Wouldn't it be great if we could figure out what would mean a lot to them and actually do that?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:54:38] Yeah, that is the task, really.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:54:40] Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Have you guys figured that out?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:54:43] Well, I will say that my daughter started dating Jordan. The one who's on a mission started dating somebody at byu. And I had kept. I kind of shared my experiences when I was here. I had to work, and a lot of the times I didn't have money to make my payment on the Canon center, the food program, So I was worried When I would give them my card that they would, you know, get out their scissors and cut it up, and I'd be embarrassed. And then I also couldn't eat, and I would tell her those stories, and she would just, you know, I mean, she listened, but I don't think she really understood. And then when she started dating this boy, he was, you know, he had to support himself, and he was kind of in the same position that I was in. And she did come back to me later and she said, you know what? Now I can really understand what you were talking about. And I'm, you know, I'm so glad I didn't have to go through that. And I can see that it's really difficult and really a stressor. So I think that helped a little bit. But, yeah, what they really want and what they really need, I'm not sure they know.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] Right, right. So good. Okay, well, let's. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about some of the specific posts on your blog or some of the content there just to give listeners a sense for what you guys do. One of the posts that Markie really liked was a post called show me who you are now. Annie, was it your aunt who wrote that post?

Letting Teens Show You Who They Are

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:56:08] That's right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] Do you have a way of giving our listeners a sense for that post and what it is?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:56:13] Sure, let me just pull it up. Yes. So my aunt Annette, I, at one point had a project where I was collecting. You know, again, I'm so interested in parenting and how people become the people they are, that I was asking people for their best advice. You know, people who are at the other end of this. Of this process. And so my aunt had written me this, and I asked her if I could post it, and she said, sure. She and my Uncle Scott have three sons who are, I think, fantastic human beings and very interesting. And. And so she wrote back that she had several kind of guidelines, and the first one I particularly resonated with, and that was show me who you are. And she says, when our sons showed us who they were, as they were figuring this out, they turned out to be delightful and talented people. Not one of them fit a preconceived notion of who they might be. And I think this is, again, goes back to the point that, you know, we have stewardship over these people, and we certainly have a responsibility and some authority to a certain extent while they're in our lives, but they are also just individuals of their own. Right. And they come with their own set of talents and skills. And perspectives and temperaments. And if we, if we step back and let them show us who they are, then I think it goes back to when you were saying how do we know what they need? Then we can receive that message from them. I just really liked that because I think a lot of times when we're looking down at the very 2 inch view of parenting and of your kids and the day to day, it's all about gotta fix this character trait and this better not carry on and you know, responsibility and all these things that are important to learn. But I think from the big picture view, we just want our kids to be the best person that they are, that they're made to be. And she had a bunch of other great things in this post. Support their interests. Let your home be the gathering place. Look for something to praise and compliment every day. Natural consequences for behaviors and listening. But we have received a lot of feedback from this post because I think it did in a really positive way. Give some good ideas with working with teenagers.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] Love it. Sarah, any comments on that post?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:58:48] I actually read back through that post the other day and I thought as I read it, I think I would have liked to have grown up in that home. I mean they just seemed really in touch with, with who their kids were. And she actually, the aunt, her aunt Annie's aunt suggests some really interesting things. And what struck me is that they involved, I guess in family council, their boys in so many decisions, including she said, like the furniture that they bought for their home, which I certainly have never done and have no real intention of doing. But I liked how she said let them have complete stewardship of their rooms. I pretty much let my kids have complete stewardship of their rooms. I had a lot of not, you know, not positive interactions with my oldest daughter when she was in about sixth, seventh grade because her room was a disaster. And it was a little bit, there were some kind of gross things like there'd be food, you know, that was slowly decaying in there and you know, I would really get after her with it. And now at this point I'm like, that was, that was ridiculous. I mean there was no reason for there to be conflict between her and I over that. That was kind of wasted, wasted energy. And you know, really pick your battles. And I think that all of the advice that was given in that post was really great.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] That's a good theme. Choose your battles. It's absolutely true. So Sarah, you've launched two children, right?

Preparing to Launch Your First Child

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:00:19] I have.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] So what advice? So we are about to launch our first child. Our daughter Anna will be going to college in the fall. And what advice, Sarah, do you have for people launching their children? What's, you know, what's it been like? What's been harder than you expected? What's been better than expected? And what tips do you have for somebody who's about to launch a child?

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:00:49] I think my biggest tip, and I've said this to. I don't know if I've said on the blog, but I've said it to a lot of people. Nanny and I have discussed it is that is, don't anticipate the launching, you know, for months or even years ahead of time. We kind of did that with our oldest, and we did it again when she left on her mission. And it was just emotional torture, I think, for everybody, where you're like, this is your last family dinner. This is your last family movie. This is your last time to eat a Chipotle. You know, we did that for months. Months. And it just felt mournful. And especially when she left on our mission and we knew she would. We wouldn't be able to talk to her, you know, regularly. And, you know, it felt almost. I mean, I don't want to make light of the situation, but it almost felt like there was a death in the family, like, this is the last time we're going to be together for so long. And I don't think that was helpful to her or to us. It just kind of built up this great anxiety. So I would say anticipate, you know, the last. Just enjoy them, you know, be, you know, talk positively about. About what's to come and the times that you will still have together. When I took my second daughter to BYU this fall, I had told her and her sister had told her the same thing. You know, you are going to have the best time. Your freshman year is the best time. You're in the dorm, and it's going to be so great, and it's going to be so much fun. And I never said to her, you might feel homesick or you might miss us or anything like that. I just, you know, kept telling her how much fun it was going to be. And she was homesick the first week or two, and she called me and she said, you know, this can't be right because I'm supposed to be having the most fun of my life, and I'm not having the most fun of my life. I hardly know anybody here, and I think everyone else must be having the most fun time of their life, but I'm not And I really miss you guys, and I really miss home. And I realized I did not prepare her appropriately. And I think now she is having the time of her life. But it certainly wasn't that way for the first week. And I didn't really prepare her for those emotions. I think partially because my older daughter didn't really experience any homesickness. But I would definitely. When my next child leaves, I think I will talk a little bit more about how to cope with, you know, your emotions and what you're feeling when you do feel homesick. I do think that. I think it's different for everybody. And I've had some parents who, you know, felt extremely mournful when their children left. And it was really hard when Jordan left, when my oldest left for the first time, because I'd never experienced that before. And when Addison left, it was still very sad, but I think I knew a little bit better how to cope with it. And I think it's okay to allow some time for morning. I think I wrote about it maybe too much on my personal blog, and a couple people commented to me, it's enough, you know, move on. Your kids are gone, so just. Just move on with that. And I was. My response was, no, this is my blog, and if I want to whine about it, you know, this is. This is my space to do that. I don't know if it was productive or for me or not, but for me, it was. It was a real loss for them to be gone. And even though I could talk and text with them regularly, it's not the same as, you know, having them in your home, coming home every day, telling you about their day.

John Dehlin [01:04:18] So there wasn't a part of you that was like a significant part of you that was like, yes, they're gone. You know, less complexity or less headache.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:04:29] No, there was not a single single ounce of me that felt that. And that was a little bit surprising. You know, you think when your kids are little, like, when they're gone, I'm going to do that. You know, I'm going to do A, B, C and D, and I'm going to fulfill all these dreams. And I didn't have a. You know, I was young when I had my kids, so I didn't have a real lengthy adult life before my kids were born. I mean, I was in college, and then I had kids. And so it is. You know, I was surprised at how sad I was and how there really wasn't any kind of like, yippee, I'm free kind of feeling that just, that wasn't there.

John Dehlin [01:05:02] That kind of shows that the motherhood was something that you probably took really seriously and were kind of all in about.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:05:08] Yeah. But you know, the funny thing is, is that I've always wanted to have a career. I've always wanted. I mean I, I treasure motherhood. I think, you know, motherhood is, is the most important thing that I can do. But I've always wanted to do things outside of the home. And so, you know, now that I have that opportunity more so, you know, you would think I would be a little bit more excited about it.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] But you weren't. All right. How about you, Annie? You've launched one child, is that right?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:05:34] I have, yeah. My daughter has done two years of college and she's now on a mission in Georgia. She's 20 and then I have an 18 year old daughter.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] Georgia. Eastern Europe or Georgia.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:05:46] No, the South. Okay, the Georgia in the U.S. okay, got it. And as far as advice for launching or things that sort of. I would pass along. One thing that I really noticed and then in checking in with other friends found is that summer before they leave, they do their darndest to make it easy for you to say goodbye.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] Yeah, interesting.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:06:11] And it seems to be, it's not true across every situation, but it does seem to be, be something they kind of start tearing away a little bit. And I noticed a lot more conflict that summer just as. And I really do think it was partly to make it emotionally easier to separate from the family. So just don't be surprised if that happens. It's okay. It's kind of a coping thing, I think. And the other thing is I had a friend that told me that

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:06:44] you

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:06:44] know, when you're having, when a pregnant woman is having a baby, she kind of turns inward during labor, you know, and all of her thoughts kind of go to that baby and to that delivery. And likewise your child will get very quite self centered as they kind of get ready to launch their own person. Like who that new person is going to be is going to take up a lot of their time. And so I guess that would be. The other thing is just don't. I think the first time through I always wonder like is this unique or is this universal? And asking around, it's been pretty universal that that's just part of kind of getting to adulthood is that turning inward of adolescence and that kind of self centeredness and it's okay.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:07:34] One, two. Come, come you saints. No toil nor labor fear but with

John Dehlin [01:08:03] joy when you're with.

Balancing Work, Marriage, and Parenting

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 453

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org all right, so one interesting thing that, that we, that we faced when, when all of our kids were in school full time, we had this question about to what extent should, you know, Margi go back to work or not and, you know, or go back to school. And, you know, I think we, I think one thing that we noticed is we kind of overestimated how much time she would have just because the kids were in school. Because you'd think, oh, you've got five or six hours a day. That's, that's a mountain of time. And it turns out that there's still a lot that a stay at home mom or dad can do to fill those hours that are really quite important for the family. But at the same time, there's, there is some time and, and there's always that question about how much do you go back to work, do you go back to school? And then how do you balance all that? So, Annie, let's start with you. Are these dynamics that you can relate to, and if so, how'd you process them?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:01:34] Yeah, well, I like Sarah. I feel like I've been going to grad. I've been in grad school pretty much for most of my kids, raising. And so one of the ways is that I've always had research projects on the side. I've been in school, I've been teaching, and we've kind of had every iteration. I've been, I've worked full time and my husband's worked full time. I've worked part time, I've worked not at all. And certainly my doctoral program has been a lot longer because I, you know, because of my role as a mother and taking that quite seriously and responding to individual health needs and different things that happen in our family, you know, has definitely meant that I've had to tailor those outside and very worthy and worthwhile interests. And so I think I always say for someone who is at home with their kids and looking ahead to when the kids aren't home and suddenly you have a lot of time. I am a big fan of school, of thinking of ways that you may want to extend into thinking about new areas. And I really felt like, for me, anyway, it was a best Kept secret of having some brain time for myself and having a lot of things, a lot of things about being a mother are very centered toward others by definition. And it's nice, no matter what stage you're in, to have a corner of your life that is essentially yours, whether it is research you're doing or a project or, you know, substantial volunteering. You know, I have friends training for marathons. Whatever it is, you should feel the license to do that. And you know, the details in each family, of course, are different depending on where you are and what your kids needs are and the kind of supports you have around you. But I think it's really been important for my kids as well, and particularly I want to make that an example for my daughters that it's okay to have that corner of your life for yourself and to articulate what you need and want and to find ways and avenues to express who you are as an individual outside of your relationships with others. So I've been very lucky because I have a extremely supportive family and husband and kids, and they've been very supportive all the way along in whatever family, whatever makeup my particular employment has.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] And you're pretty happy with the balance you've struck then?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:04:26] I am happy with the balance I've struck. And I think what's important to say is it was, it's all about what I chose. I chose to get married and we chose together to have children and we chose the way in which they were going to be raised. And so there are certainly trade offs and I'm certainly not at a place in my career where I would have been had I made different choices, but I own those. And I'm happy with the trade off. I'm happy with where I am. And I also, by the same, by the same logic, am thrilled to allow each person their own set of circumstances where they've made those choices and live with the trade off that you have. And as you said, there's a trade off when you're working full time. When I was working full time, there were a bunch of things that did not get done that just had to go out the window. And also when I'm home full time, there are a bunch of things I'm not doing, you know, by virtue of that decision. But I've been happy with this particular set of challenges and opportunities. And I also acknowledge that I am hugely lucky to have the resources to make all of those choices. And I know that's not the case for everyone. And so anyway, that's where I come down on the work balance, I think it's just ongoing and if you're flexible, then it can be done.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] Okay, how about you, Sarah?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:05:57] I have not been the queen of balance and that's something that I've really struggled with and I definitely tend to over promise myself during those non school hours when I went to get my master's, Sterling was getting his MBA at the same time and our kids were in fourth grade, third grade, kindergarten. And then we had a two year old. And those were just two golden years because we were both in school full time. We arranged our class schedules so that Sterling went to class in the morning and I went to class in the afternoons. And then we just equally shared the kid responsibilities and you know, we would get them to bed at night at 8 and then we would sit at the dining room table and, you know, study. And it was, it was perfect. That's how I imagined that like race raising kids would be. Not my husband at work all day and me sweating out with a bunch of toddlers, which it had been previous to that. So that was great. And then after we graduated from Baylor and we moved back to Houston, I taught at the community college for a year and then my son went to kindergarten and I thought, well, now I have all the time in the world to do whatever it is I need to do. So I applied to the doctorate program at A and M. And I knew that it was going to be a challenge because it's 70 miles from my house to the A and M campus. Wow. And so, but there really weren't a lot of other options available. Rice had a program where basically regardless of what you came in with, you had to do a master's program with them. It was a combined program. I didn't want to do that. So that was kind of my only option. And those were probably two of the hardest years of my life because I was, and I was also teaching at AM at the time and I was pretty much able to work it out so that I got the kids on the bus, I drove up to A and M, I taught, I took my classes, I did whatever I needed to do and then I could for the most part be home by the time that they got home from school. There were some semesters where I might have a day where I couldn't be and Sterling would, you know, fill in. But that wasn't easy for him and it was exhausting. Like I couldn't have done another year of it and that I really misjudged that. But there wasn't. I just Needed to kind of power through that and get that course done. So that was really difficult. I think that it was hard on me, and I think it was. It was hard on the kids. But on the plus side, my girls, all the kids, but especially the older girls, really developed a relationship with Sterling that I think wouldn't have occurred under normal circumstances. They depended on him. They went to him because there was lots of times where I couldn't be there for them. Or I was writing in the study and he was taking over what I normally would have done. And I think that their relationships really kind of took on some really positive aspects and really blossomed under that. So in that way, it was really great. And Sterling will even. He'll say those were really great years. We were exhausted. But he was really more involved in parenting, I think, than he'd ever been.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] That's interesting. That's great. Okay. All right, well, let's switch to kind of a. I'll call it a firing round. I want to just talk about. We're going to go back to nesting a little bit and kind of pre. Launching, but I want to just bring up a bunch of topics related to raising kids and get each of your views on how you deal with it. So. So I'm going to begin with tv. Television. I grew up sort of through, you know, elementary and junior high, is this couch potato kid, in a sense. I mean, I love sports, but I didn't read and I watched TV and played video games all the time. And. And I don't know what. What in Margi's background kind of led to this, but we've had a really probably extreme approach to TV in our family, which is that we don't watch tv. I mean, I guess we have cable, but no one ever turns it on. Nobody ever watches tv. We just don't do TV as a family, really, unless there's kind of a special. Kind of a special occasion. And so I haven't really reflected much about how extreme that kind of might seem to other people on the outside. So I'm curious how you guys have approached tv. So, Sarah, I'll start with you.

Screens, Wi-Fi, Cell Phones, and Curfews

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:10:40] Well, we do watch tv, but when our kids were little, like in elementary school, we instituted a no TV on screen, school nights or school days rule, which we still carry through. And so our kids watch tv. They can watch it Friday when they come home from school, and they can watch it Saturday. But we don't really watch TV on Sundays either, because that's technically a school night. So it's been much More limited than what it was when I was growing up. And we did it because we wanted the kids to, you know, focus on reading or their schoolwork or other things. And I have found that with Parker, our youngest, he has an iPad. And so even though the TV is not on, he has, you know, an iPad, which isn't technically tv, but it's still screen time. So we've kind of had to place some limits on that. But. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:33] So what are your. What are your limits? What are your limits?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:11:36] He might be on it, like, half an hour when he comes home. We actually, on the street we live on, there's about 10 boys his age. And so if he's not at, you know, a sporting activity or doing something like that, they are outside playing football or playing basketball. So I don't really have to enforce limits too much on him, unless it's a rainy day, something like that. But, yeah, I'm anti TV during the. During the school week.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] During the week. And what about. So do you guys have, like, a video game console?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:12:04] We have every. We have a bunch of video game consoles, and nobody, you know, they'll have friends over and they'll play a. Just dance or every, you know, Parker will have a friend over and he'll play, like, a football game. But unless they have friends over, they're just really not. I mean, they're very unused. Not. They're just really not interested in them.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] Okay. And that. That seems more normal for the. For the girls. But I've heard a lot about, you know, young men these days, kind of get it. Getting addicted to video games.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:12:32] Yeah, not so far, but he's only 12. I don't know if. And, yeah, I definitely know that. And like, my. My daughters have had good, you know, guy friends who have spent, you know, enormous amounts of time gaming. And I did. I have told my girls, you know, if they're addicted to gaming or they spend large amounts of time gaming, that's probably not going to be a harmonious, you know, type of marriage attribute, because when you're changing the baby's diaper and the baby's screaming, they're still going to be gaming. So keep that in mind.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Right. All right. Annie, how do you guys deal with tv?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:13:10] Well, we here in Australia, we made the decision not to connect our TV at all. I think just the broadcasting laws are different, and there's pretty much unfettered access to everything at all times. So we just knew we wouldn't be able to without that kind of oversight. We just didn't really we weren't really that interested. So our TV watching is very mindful. If we download a series on itunes and watch it, or if we watch a Netflix TV series together. We just finished watching all of the West Wing episodes together, so we will watch it. But like you, it's sort of more of an event. And. But we are a big. We love movies. We're a big. You know, we're into movies. And it's not that we're not into pop culture or those kinds of things. We just really want to encourage our kids to, like, develop their talents and do some other things and use movies and TV shows and things more as a reward or something. Occasional rather than a given. But like you, I would come home from school and turn on the TV and sit down and watch it in the 80s, and that was part of our lives. But

John Dehlin [00:14:25] Margi was in here for just a few minutes, and she kind of gently nudged me to clarify. She feels like I. I made it sound a little bit more extreme than we might be. I mean, we do. We will sit down as a family and watch, you know, Modern Family every once in a while, you know, through Netflix. Margi and I have a show or two that we watch each night. Yeah, each week, you know, we watch Parenthood. Sarah, I noticed you watch Grandfather.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:14:51] I Love that one.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] YouTube.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:14:52] It's my favorite.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:14:52] Yeah, that's my favorite, too.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] We love Parenthood. We sometimes watch Modern Family. Margi and I watch a show called Mad Men. So we, you know, we watch a. Margi and I watch a couple hours of TV a week. And sometimes as a family, we'll watch things. There was a time where we watched so youo Think youk Can Dance every week. But I guess. Yeah, I was talking more about the habit of sitting in front of the TV and turning it on and not really knowing what you're gonna watch and just watching it. So. Oh, and we do the. We do the regular movies. You know, every week or every other week, we do a family movie. So that was for my wife, so that we don't appear too extreme.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:15:30] Understood.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Okay, now back to extreme. What do you guys do about WI Fi? I'll start with Annie.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:15:39] Oh, okay. WI fi is something that we've been talking about quite a bit because we haven't really regulated it here. We do regulate it in that all devices and Internet surfing is done in public, like out in the family areas. They're not allowed to have their itouches or their computers in their bedroom.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] So do they put them in a basket or what?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:16:06] On the counter with their charger. And yeah, they just know to kind of check them in. But I have heard a lot of really good ideas when I've been kind of wondering about this. I know people who change the password daily and the kids have to do their chores before they get the password for the day.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] Wow, that's high maintenance.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:16:25] Yeah, it is high maintenance. And then I've also looked into, and someone told me this is possible, whether you can have two levels of WI fi. I think they should invent this. I think they should invent a device where you can set the password to expire at a certain time, but there's an apparent overriding password that's accessible all the time. Does that make sense? So there's a kid's password where at 8pm the wi fi no longer works for that, but the parents can still use it at night.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] Interesting.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:16:55] Somebody should invent that and make millions.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] So do you have a problem with your kids doing Instagram and Twitter and Facebook all the time or not?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:17:04] Yes. I mean, it's not a problem, but they definitely are great users of those programs, Snapchat, and they are not shy about it. But we do have them put them away at certain times. We also have the kind of funny family rule that if you're texting with someone at the table or when we're having a conversation, you have to read out the conversation to everybody in the room. So that's kind of deterred a lot of interesting. But I think, you know, it's that blend of wanting to develop their good judgment and being able. Like, I don't want to give them so much structure and rules that they're not making any judgment calls on their own because someday they're going to be out where they can have access to everything that they want.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] Right. So you want to teach them to use good judgment.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:17:55] Yeah. I did have one really interesting experience when one of my kids. I found one of my kids in their closet watching a show that he had previously said, because we kind of have shows that you're okay to watch and shows that we'd rather you didn't watch. And so this particular child, I knocked on the door and they walked up to the door and they were entirely too like, hi. And so the spidey sense got enacted and activated. And so turns out, yeah, that person was definitely doing something that they knew they shouldn't. And it turned out that it was because they felt like our rules were not matched to their development level. And so it was a great time to talk about like, okay, you can open up a conversation about things that you think you should be able to watch, but the minute you do something that causes us to not trust you, then you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose privileges that you're desperately trying to get more of. So I think every family goes through those kinds of negotiations and you know, people making mistakes and I know I've made mistakes, probably erring on the side of too much caution. But, you know, we're all learning, right?

John Dehlin [00:19:12] Sarah? How do you guys handle WI Fi?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:19:15] We have tried a couple of different things. We have never let them take. My girls got iPhones when they were seniors, so they were, they were older when they had that. But they did have itouches and Parker has an iPad and so those are not really allowed in their rooms. Every now and then they'll make it up to their room if you know, they're texting someone. But they're. They're not supposed to watch movies or YouTube videos, those kinds of things. And they're pretty good about leaving them downstairs. I have recently experimented with installing like a parental controlled browser on the iPad and on the iPhone, mostly because I don't want them to unwittingly come upon pornography. And that's kind of the. Been some mixed success because sometimes those filters are so strong that they can't get to places that, you know, are normally okay. They plug in their phones downstairs so you know, basically when they go to bed, their, their phones stay downstairs with us. But you know, I have to say my girls, they text and they, they Instagram and they Snapchat a lot. But they. Maybe because they've kind of grown up with it sometimes, you know, they'll kind of school Sterling and I a little bit on it like sacrament meeting, you know, I might need to pull it out real quick and look up something and they think that's totally inappropriate and you know, give me a dirty look and then I kind of, you know, put it away. So I think they actually kind of on their own have pretty good, pretty good Internet manners.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] Interesting.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:20:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] Well, we're kind of. I'm just going to offer this, not that you're asking, but we have a, we have a bit of a, I don't know, we have a bit of a lockdown in the sense that all of our computers are password controlled. So if one of our kids wants to have Internet, you know, be on the computer, we log them in. And it's the same with their ipods. So if we, if we, if they want to Access the Internet on their, on their ipod. We log them in and then when they're done, we log them off. And sometimes we even, you know, time them so, you know, 30 minutes and set the timer. And so that's kind of how we've been handling. And that's worked okay. We've allowed our oldest, our 18 year old to now have kind of unlimited WI fi because she's a senior and she's gonna have to graduate. And she's been super duper high performing and responsible. So we're just not worried about her going off the rails that way. But anyway, that's how we've been doing it and it's worked interestingly. What do you guys do about cell phones and texting? Is it the same type of thing?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:21:55] Yeah. John, I wanted to say that I had this great idea about. We have a computer upstairs, which actually I think that we've decided we'll probably bring down because when we had four kids living upstairs, it's in a game room. And then their bedrooms all surround this game room. The computer's out in the game room, so it's out in a public area. But now that there's only two kids at home, you know, it's not quite as public as it once was. So I, you know, it's always. It had a password on it, but it was very inconvenient for me in my laziness to go all the way upstairs and sign them onto it. So I had this bright idea that I would just take the mouse and I would keep the mouse downstairs and then they would have to check the mouse in and out with me. And then at one point I hid the mouse and could not remember exactly where it hid the mouse. And so we were without the mouse for about a month. And then I found the mouse again. But I think, you know, the computer just needs to come, come downstairs.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] So. So what do you do, Sarah, about texting and cell phones? Do the kids. Can your teenage daughters have their cell phones at night in their bedrooms?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:23:04] No, all the phones stay downstairs when. When they go to bed. The phones are charged in our bedroom, so they cannot have them.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] What time?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:23:16] I would say between 9 and 10. For Rebecca, she has to get up at 5 every morning. So sometime between 9 and 10 after she's, you know, had her shower and she's ready for bed, she comes in and plugs her phone in and she's really good about it. And I hear the text going off until, you know, 11, 12 people are trying to contact her. And Parker Parker doesn't have a smartphone. He just has a regular phone, and he's 12. So he leaves his phone downstairs to. And they know that, though I don't do this a lot, that I have their passwords and me reading their text is always fair game. So if I feel like there's a need or I just want to. Or I just want to check up on with them, then I will shuffle through their texts. But we haven't really ever had an issue with it.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] So they don't have a password. You can just log on at any

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:24:06] time onto their smartphone.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] Yeah,

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:24:11] no, but they have to do it downstairs.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Right, Right.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:24:14] And they can't, you know, they can't take it up when they go to bed. Well, that's just Rebecca and my old. My other girls, they were 18 when they got their iPhones, and Rebecca kind of inherited this one when Jordan went on her mission, which is why I have kind of experimented with putting on, like, a browser that's, you know, has parental controls built into it, which I said has been, you know, kind of. It's kind of been mixed reviews on that.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] Yeah. Well, this is good because we do the same thing. Our kids have to turn in their cell phones at 8:30, and now we can tell them that we're not the only ones.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:24:55] Solidarity.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Yeah. All right, Annie, how about you?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:25:02] I'm a big fan of having ages to shoot for. And so we said no cell phones until 14 at the youngest. And my son, who's 15, still doesn't really want one. He's still fine. But my daughters, they were jumping at the chance when I came. And then as far as kind of overseeing, we do have the agreement that we can check anytime. We don't super often, but I do look at the bill. And so we had one time when I noticed that there was a lot of texting going on during school, like during classes, all throughout the day. And so we had a conversation about that.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:25:44] And.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:25:47] And then, as I said, we. We also have them check them in at night. They don't have them in their rooms. I don't think there's any reason to be, you know, bothered by the buzzing or be tempted to, you know, talk with people, you know, all night long or anything like that. So, yeah, I'm on the same. Pretty much on the same wavelength as both of you in terms of overseeing it.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] Excellent. You're validating our approach. I really appreciate it. Our kids are going to hate you,

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:26:13] of course, but, you know, but they won't. But they will know. They're not alone.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] I'm kidding. That's right. Okay, curfew. What do you guys do?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:26:21] Amy, curfew for us is really situational, I kind of think because of the advent of cell phones. The old fashioned curfew, which was intended to make sure that you knew your kids were in a certain spot at a certain time, served that purpose. But I think when we can be in touch with our kids a lot, that gives me a little bit more peace of mind. So sometimes the curfew will be 9, but sometimes the curfew will be 11. But let me know, check in at that point. And my kids will say, we just barely started the movie, but I'll be home at 12, 15. And depending on the age and who they're with, it is very situational, I have to admit. But having said that, my kids are super in love with their beds. They love to go to sleep. Sometimes they'll tell their friends, I'm tired, I'm going home. So I also know that they'll kind of self monitor a bit that way. So we're pretty. I think we kind of choose according to the child and the situation and the event. What's going to be happening for the curfew?

John Dehlin [00:27:31] Got it. All right, Sarah, what do you guys do?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:27:35] We kind of ramp up. Eventually the curfew is midnight, but it's. And I think probably because of cell phones, as Annie said, this is why by the time they're 18 and you know, it's their senior year or the summer before they go to college, it's midnight mostly because I can't really sleep until they're home. And so I need them to come home. But like for Rebecca right now, she's only had her driver's license a few months, so I'm not really comfortable with her out driving around until midnight. So it really kind of depends on what she's doing, where she's going and who she's with. Will kind of set some guidelines and, you know, we've been lucky that our kids have all been, you know, very reasonable and cooperative about that. And I think we've probably been more conservative than most parents. But I definitely want to know where they are and what the plan is and, you know, that they're home, especially if they're driving, that they're home, you know, at a decent time. But midnight is kind of the, you know, as far as we'll go.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Okay, back to. I hate to do this, but I want to go back to texting just for a quick second. I tend to Go bananas when the kids text during family time. So let's say it's a Saturday and we're all sitting around and they're texting, or it's a Thursday night and we're all trying to have a little bit of talk time, and they start texting, or when they ask me to come pick them up somewhere or drive them somewhere, and instead of us talking, you know, like you say, Annie, shoulder to shoulder, they're texting. And it just makes me go bananas. How do you guys deal with that? I'll start with Annie.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:29:17] Well, one way I mentioned is, you know, if it's in front of the family or during a time we're having a conversation, they have to read the conversation. And, you know, a lot of times it's just stupid. Like, someone has said, like, hey, and they said hey back or something. But I think it's just kind of an ongoing developmental conversation about manners and connecting with people and being where you are. Sometimes, even when the kids have friends over or I'm young women's president, and I feel like they, you know, I make the girls put their phones down when we're in an activity or, you know, I just think that that's common courtesy. It's about paying attention to the people in front of you. And so, yeah, I'm with you. If someone's kind of doing that over and over again, I might suggest that I take custody of the phone for a little while until they can kind of get it under control. Because I think it's all part of being able to connect with people.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] And we kind of implemented a no texting on Sunday policy, not because we're Sabbath Nazis, but just because it's, like, the only day where just we can really have a chance at connecting for a full day. Do you do something like that? Or Sunday's fair game.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:30:29] We haven't done that. I mean, yeah, I haven't done that. So that's a good. It's kind of the true definition, kind of the Jewish definition of the Sabbath, where you just say, you know, the. I like it. It's a good idea. But where you just say gadgets. And the external things are just not a part of our day because we're giving ourselves a rest.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] See, I'm giving you an idea or two.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:30:52] Yeah, why not? Now my kids are going to hate you.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Awesome. All right, so what do you guys do about texting and Sundays and stuff?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:31:00] Well, yeah, we haven't taken Sundays. Texting off the table on Sundays. I have to say that I just don't think it's been as much of an issue. I will ask them if we're talking or having family time, and I feel like they're really engrossed in a texting conversation. I'll ask them to, to put it away. Or I might ask them, hey, who are you texting? And, you know, they don't really want to get into all the different people that they're texting. When I've taught, texting has been such a huge issue. And I mean, I've taught at three different universities and the texting is. Drives me nuts. So there I'm up there lecturing, and they have their phone underneath the table and for some reason think that I can't see. See underneath the table, even though I have a clear view underneath the table. So I, you know, I do agree that it's almost a learned skill that they can't become addicted or, you know, it could become such a habit that they want to, you know, look at their phones and talk on their phones, or they've got to get this text out. They can't wait 10 minutes until class is over. But I, you know, I haven't experienced that much with my own kids. Sometimes I will get a text during the day, you know, I need to stay after school, that kind of thing. And I know it's in the middle of class, so we'll talk about that. But they're actually pretty good about, about putting it away. And, and, you know, I think they've, they've got some decent texting etiquette, which is, you know, something you have to, to teach them.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Nice. Okay. I don't know how plugged in you guys might be to kind of the Mormon feminist sort of discussions of the modesty question. This is a really charged issue that I'm going to just admit I only know a few things about. But, but if you go to feminist Mormon housewives and some of some of those other groups, there are very, very strong opinions about how we teach modesty to young women. To what extent do we shame or blame women for thoughts or feelings or behaviors of young men? And to what extent do we focus so much on modesty that we might even impair how our young women feel about their bodies and their selves and even, dare I say, their sexuality? First of all, I guess, are you guys plugged into that sort of line of thinking and discourse? If you're not, that's fine. But regard, regardless, how do you guys approach modesty? And is it in any way different from the standard young women's approach at church. Who do you want to start with?

Navigating Modesty, Dating, and Relationships

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:33:51] Because I feel very passionate about this.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] Okay, then go ahead.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:33:56] I can go after Annie. I don't want to steal her thunder.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] Go ahead, Amy.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:33:59] Well, I was gonna say, I know we're both plugged in about it. Cause we've had conversations about it and I think we're both pretty good readers of the Blogger Nackle. But. And I actually really liked the approach. I think it was feminist Mormon housewives that talked about approaching modesty from the perspective of modesty as a virtue itself. I think it was based on the Pope and sort of his modest approach to his papacy because I think it kind of shifted the discussion a bit. Why are we emphasizing modesty? And so I have to say, I'm a child, like I said, I grew up in the 80s. And you know what? In Logan, Utah, in the 80s, you wore short shorts, you wore sleeveless turtlenecks and all those wonderful 80s clothes. And so I have noticed, you know, a markedly more stringent guideline, you know, that's been well documented. So. And I think the way I try to approach it is asking my girls, how do you feel when you wear this? Because I think it's about respecting yourself and I think it's about portraying who you want to be and who you are. And I think immodesty is immodest when it comes from, you know, sort of a, I guess, am I saying an intent to be immodest? I don't know. That's not even what I'm trying to say, but just more of the paying attention to how something makes you feel as a person, as a woman. And is that sending a message? But we do all have, and with my 15 year old son as well, we've talked about this very thing and some of the posts that have been talked about because I think that young women aren't responsible for a young man's response. And that's not. You're not dressing for him, you're not dressing to protect him. That, that's his job. His modesty is in his eyes and in his way. But I also think a part of the modesty discussion that really needs attention is also how we in turn judge other people based on their modesty or your standards of modesty. So we also talk about that, that your feelings about the way someone else's else dresses is your problem. And you're responsible for how you dress and for making sure that you feel good and your best self in the way you dress. And then there's no place in judgment. And I think that that, unfortunately, has given people a lot of reason to judge each other in our young women's classes or in our parenting or on Facebook, on, you know, on the prom dresses that different people are wearing. And I would like us all to just kind of unplug from that a little bit. I think it does fetishize a little bit too much. And so I'd really rather kind of rely on the more global sense of modesty and being respectful to yourself and to others.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] Great.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:37:24] And having said that, my kids really don't, you know, I don't think they really push it any further than most teenagers do. So hopefully we'll see. And I will say, though, that sisters often regulate each other much more strictly than the parents do anyway, because they feel like you can't wear that, because I can and I don't. So that's also an interesting dynamic. But, Sarah, I'd love to hear what you have to say about it, because I know you.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:37:55] I probably already told you everything. But I'll tell John

John Dehlin [00:37:59] when and our

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:38:00] listeners when I, you know, there have been times that my girls have come home from church or seminary or, you know, even just discussions among other church members where the thought has been presented to them that they are somehow that their dress affects a young man's thoughts and it affects, you know, essentially his virtue and that it's their responsibility to dress in a way that his thoughts would not be misdirected or be inappropriate. And nothing makes. Well, there are other things, but it makes my blood boil when I hear that, because it's not a young woman's responsibility. And in fact, it came up last year in seminary that, you know, the boys really needed the girls help to keep their thoughts pure. And, you know, from a purely logical stance, you know, we have maybe 30 girls that go to my kids high school, 30 LDS girls, and you know, 1500 others who are in no way adhering to any standards of modesty. So I don't see how those 30 girls, you know, are going to somehow control the thoughts of boys who are surrounded by, you know, all these other girls. And I don't want them to have that responsibility. And I think that it's misplaced. You know, everyone's responsible for their own thoughts and their own actions, and they have their own agency. And I think it's wrong to place that on girls. And it's, you know, you joked about the 19th century, but, you know, the 19th century idea of the angel of the house and that women are responsible for the morality of their families extends today to 16 year old girls who are now responsible for the morality of their male, male counterparts. We did have an interesting experience and you know, I've talked to my girls obviously about this and like Annie, I want them to dress modestly out of respect for their own bodies and out of respect for who they are and who they want to become and the path in life that they want to take. But Madison, my daughter, who's a freshman at BYU this year, she was going to prom with a group of kids and some of the boys were lds and some were not. And we have this tradition at our high school. I don't seems weird, but I don't know if other schools do it where the group that is going together is a prom. So it was like her and her date and maybe like, I don't know, seven other couples, they were going to go to dinner together and then, you know, go to the dance together. So their group designs a prom T shirt. And then the Friday before prom, everyone wears their group T shirt to school.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] Wow.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:40:36] And so they designed the T shirt. But a lot of the kids wanted to, wanted the shirt to be like a tank. And Madison didn't want it to be a tank because she doesn't wear tanks to school. And like Annie, like that was not a rule. Like we showed our shoulders all the time. I wore a strapless dress to my senior prom and I didn't even know, you know, to me that wasn't, that wasn't on the modesty radar. But so her date was LDS and there were some other boys that were lds. And she said, I don't want the tank because I can't really wear the tank. But in the end they ended up ordering the tank. And so she sends this Instagram the day she's there. Okay, it's, you know, 95 degrees in Houston. She has on the tank and she has a cardigan because, not because of anything that I forced her to do, but because she felt like she needed to, to wear that cardigan. And then she's got two LDS boys flanking her with just the tank on. And of course I just, you know, I couldn't control myself and I just went crazy about, you know, are those boys shoulders in any way, you know, more sexual than my daughter's shoulder? I mean, there's no, there's no difference. It's a shoulder. And she actually had an assignment in her writing class this semester where she was supposed to write an article that could be published in The Daily Universe. And she wrote on that. She wrote on the kind of varying standards between genders that are imposed culturally by the church and by church members. And that has not been published by the Daily Universe. But I think her teacher enjoyed it. But like Annie, I think that it's really become such a, you know, issue of judgment and where it's really kind of lost its meaning. And we've kind of lost, I think, the doctrine that's attached to. And it's become, you know, it's become kind of a cultural phenomenon that I think in many ways is negative and I think kind of sets us back, sets women back. I think that, you know, I want my girls to dress modestly because they have respect for their bodies and, you know, and that their intent in dressing is not to be, you know, sexually suggestive. That's hopefully not, you know, the people that they want to be. But I do think it's a hot topic. And, you know, and I think the girls are definitely tuned into it.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Right.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:42:59] I think another issue I was just thinking is, you know, it's so situational because what you wear at the swimming pool is not what you wear to church, is not what you wear when you're running. And so I think the other thing is just realizing the appropriateness of your. Of the setting. And, you know, I think my son was saying the other day, isn't it so weird that you go to the swimming pool and you basically see everybody, you know, in their nothings, and then. But you're also. But then, you know, at other places in your life, you're supposed to cover up, which is entirely appropriate. And. But it is a very. There's a situational aspect to it, for sure, that.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Right.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:43:41] Yeah. And I've taught classes where I've had girls come in, you know, skirts that, you know, they're like three inches. The skirt is three inches long. And I think, you know, that's not. Situationally. That's not appropriate for you to sit there in class, you know, with a tube top and a tiny little skirt on. And I would, you know, I don't say anything to them because, you know, that's not always the appropriate place. But I would like to tell them, and I have tried to, in other ways, encourage them that, you know, if you're in a professional setting, you want to present yourself in a professional way. Like, you're not going to wear what you wear to go dancing at a bar on Friday night to your business meeting. And this is kind of your job, and you're in class right now and, you know, I'm leading the meeting and is this kind of, you know, the image you want to project?

John Dehlin [00:44:27] Right. So I'll just, I'll just put you guys in the, in the consultant role again really quickly. I'm just curious how you would deal with this. I. Our oldest daughter, Anna, she's awesome. And modesty has never been an issue for her. She dresses very modestly, but she decided that she wanted to be able to make those decisions for herself. And when she contemplated going to byu, something that made her extremely uncomfortable. Even though modesty has always been a huge priority for her, she said she probably isn't going to want to go to BYU just simply because she doesn't want to live under a set of guidelines regarding modesty, even though she has no intention of ever breaking them. Can you guys relate to that at all? And if so, what would you say to your daughter who decided that? Annie, you go first.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:45:31] She sounds like a great girl. I would say BYU is a wonderful option. And I think of my children, my daughter did go to byu. My second daughter's not interested at all in applying there. My son may apply there. So I just think she sounds like she has a lot of self knowledge and there is something about being put under a dress code that doesn't appeal to everybody. And I don't know. So I would say let her do that and let her apply where she wants to go. And I kind of respect that that's the case for her. It's kind of a conscientious objector. She's doing a sit in.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] Yeah. And it's crazy because she did four years of seminary by choice. We didn't make her. She chose to do four years of seminary and even so now is probably not going to use that in terms of going to school, but it's awesome.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:46:35] Yeah, I think she just knows that about herself. It sounds like. And frankly, my husband is a little bit that way. He didn't go to the BYU and we were engaged though, and he would do things like wear no socks on purpose and have ripped jeans on campus on purpose because it just, you know, it rankled him that they had a dress code. Some people just have that personality and I kind of love them for it.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Awesome. Sarah, what do you think? Anything to add?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:47:01] I think, I mean, I agree with Annie. I always, I do kind of take issue with people who are at BYU who then, you know, are really kind of bitter about the rules. Like if you want to engage in those rules and those restrictions, then Then you know that going in. And so I think if your daughter knows that and knows she's not interested in that, then I think that's really self actualized and wise. I think that, I mean, I can only speak from my own experience and my daughters who are up there and they're not really ones to push the modesty envelope and certainly in class you can't wear short shorts. But you know, I don't think that they've ever really felt a desire to, you know, to do that. And it doesn't sound like your daughter does either. But I just, for them I don't think it was an issue. But for my third daughter who's home, she's always been really, really into fashion and to clothes and to, you know, the way things look. And it's more of a struggle for her because sometimes the cool things are not, you know, down to your knees and she's really tall and thin and you know, so she definitely struggles with that a little bit more and I think it would be more of an issue for her.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Right.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:48:21] Well, good.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] I want to go back and tell my daughter Anna that she's self actualized and I think that's good. And I'll redeem you guys in her eyes, I guess is what I'm going to do.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:48:32] So.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] So let's talk about dating. I have three daughters and it makes me really nervous and I'm wondering how you guys handle the fact that your daughters had to go out with boys because that makes me really nervous. I don't know what that says about me, but yeah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:48:55] What kind of date were you, John?

John Dehlin [00:48:56] I know you should know, Sarah. So I hope I behave myself.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:49:04] Of course, we were both very, we were behaviors.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] So how do you guys handle that? I'll start with you, Sarah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:49:14] It also makes me very nervous. I don't like it. And I mean, we just follow basically the church's guidelines. They can't date till they're 16. And then we really, really encourage them to only group date until basically they're in college. So. And they've been, they're pretty amenable to that rule. And luckily my two olders, two older girls never had boyfriends really like kind of steady dating kind of thing until they were in college. So I mean, just a lot of talking about, you know, what the purpose of dating is and you know, what kind of what a date should be while you're in high school and you know, what would you be looking for if you were, you know, if you were looking for a husband. Like, what kind of attributes in guys do you think are, you know, attractive or do you think would, you know, make a good spouse? That kind of thing. But mostly the, you know, the kids in our area are pretty good about sticking to the group dating thing. We did have an incident a couple weeks ago where my daughter, who's just barely 16, got this invitation to is actually a boy from Katie who wanted to come out and pick her up and take her over to Katie in the middle of the day. And I didn't know any of the people involved, and I don't know if this was good or not, but I just put my foot down and said no. I said, if he wants to come over here, he's welcome to come over here. But I just can't relinquish you into the great unknown, you know, into someone's. I didn't know if his parents were going to be home. You know, I hadn't. I didn't. I wasn't getting a good vibe. And so I often will just tell them, like, I don't really have a great feeling about this. And they're not always thrilled with my feelings, but they're pretty respectful of them.

Dating, Jobs, and LGBTQ Questions in the Church

John Dehlin [00:50:57] So do your kids mainly date just LDS kids, or is it a mix?

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:51:03] No, sorry, that's my phone. There's not a ton of LDS kids here, although maybe more than when you and I were in high school here. So a mix of both. But I would say primarily they do date LDS kids.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] Okay. All right. Annie, how about you?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:51:24] Quite similar. Before we were here, we were in Massachusetts, and my kids were the only members of the church in their high school. And so, first of all, dating there, except for a little bit in the stake, was much different than it is, I think, in a lot of areas where there are more concentrated LDs in that there's really not a lot of calling up and going on a casual date. It's either hanging out or your boyfriend and girlfriend. And so it's an interesting thing to kind of negotiate and to kind of figure out how you can still have healthy relationships with your peers and yet still be respectful of the guidelines that the church gives. And so, yeah, my kids didn't date till they were 16, and my two daughters are the only ones that are of dating age. They have had different experiences. One daughter dated a lot in the stake and, you know, seemed to always have things because of the number of kids her age group. And then my other daughter just kind

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:52:32] of

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:52:34] had a lot of friends, but really felt like whenever she read on Facebook in Utah, all the school dances and all the dates that were going on, she really felt like that was not within her experience, so didn't really have to clamp down a lot because there really wasn't a lot happening when we've moved here. She has had some dating experience, and she has dated both members of the church and non members of the church. And I actually. So I respectfully have a bit of an issue with the group dating only until you're in college, because as a developmental psychologist, I think it's pretty great to have your parents around when you're negotiating your first kind of romantic relationship. And that's not to say I would encourage my kids to go get a boyfriend, but I'm also worried about a lot of kids on their own in college having their first relationship without adults around to sort of scaffold and help them understand some of those dynamics that happen. And I think it's rather easy to be either swept away or kind of very naively or not so naively led into things that are not healthy in a relationship. So I kind of. I would love to see the church dial that back a little bit just because I think it's healthier for kids to have a little bit more parental guidance around that first relationship.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Yeah. Because once they go to college, it's just whatever, you know, whatever they're gonna do, they're doing.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:54:10] Yeah, exactly.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:54:12] And that wasn't a thing when we were kids. Right. I don't remember.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:54:16] I think it's kind of new, and I understand the, you know, the feelings behind it and actually probably some of the fear. They don't want kids, you know, making mistakes that are hard to undo. But I think it's. I think a better way to go at it is to equip kids and parents to make good decisions and to kind of navigate those years. And if you do have a boyfriend, which again, I'm not saying everyone should, but if you have sort of a relationship that lasts for a little bit, I would much rather have that take place in a, you know, as I said, in a place where adults can kind of help you figure out and navigate and say, oh, that kind of sounds crazy, or he sounds manipulative or, you know, whatever. So it's not far away. So that's kind of because. And I say that because, you know, having a daughter far away, dating and realizing, like, I'm not going to meet this guy. I'm in Australia, so it could get very, very serious before we even lay eyes on him. And so I, you know, I feel better having. Having had lots of discussions and, and made some, you know, they've made some mistakes along the way, but we've been able to. To talk through them, so.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:55:30] Yeah, but you know what, I just have to interrupt.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] Yeah, please.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:55:32] Although that's not the purpose of this. I think though that even within the group, I'm not saying that they don't have a boyfriend.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:55:38] Oh, yeah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:55:38] But I'm saying that you can have a boyfriend, but primarily, you know, interact on weekends in, you know, more group settings. That doesn't mean they don't come pick you up and take you to a dance and you meet your friends at the dance and then maybe go out somewhere afterwards. But I have to say I'm a fan of the more people being around as they're negotiating. You know, I like you, you like me, and you know, all of those kinds of things. I like for there to be a lot of people around, including me.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:56:02] I'm with you. Yep, I'm with you. Yeah. The interactions are much better when they're kind of in a group and not that one on one. That's the way it's usually interpreted.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:56:14] Oh, well, I guess. Well, I just, I want the dating per se to be primarily with other people. Like not a lot of, a lot of time on their own kind of a thing.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:56:25] Yeah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:56:25] I mean, it's not that you can't have a boyfriend. I just don't. I don't particularly want them to be spending, you know, 10 hours together on the weekends. By themselves.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:56:34] By themselves, yeah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:56:37] Or really ever. I don't really want them ever.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] Right. Do you guys have your kids work, like have jobs? Start with Annie.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:56:50] My kids have had summer jobs and then they do babysitting and, and other kinds of jobs. But recently here, our summer is from January, is January and February and we have used those times to travel a little bit and to go back and visit family. So less working since we've been here abroad. But yeah, we definitely encourage jobs. And it's interesting, with one of my kids we had to kind of go to an entirely. Like we give her an allowance for all of her spending. And you know, from that she planned clothes and extras and it was just easier for her and for her personality and for learning kind of how to manage money. And then we've kind of done it differently with different kids. So some kids, we have always given an allowance and they've always had chores at home and then encouraged to get jobs outside. But it definitely needs to fit in with schoolwork and all that. Other stuff.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] So they have jobs during school,

Annie Bentley Waddoups [00:57:56] so the babysitting. And I'm trying to think whether one of our kids had a job during the school year. They've done. Yes, Maddie has, and they've done also work experiences through the school, like internships that are more voluntary, but typically during the summer, camp counselor and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:58:16] All right, Sarah.

Sarah Brenner Jones [00:58:18] Yeah, we. We have not. Ours have not worked during the school year, but they have. We have encouraged them to work in the summertime. I don't. I wouldn't say that we've, you know, made them, but we have definitely encouraged them during the summer to work. And then the summer after their senior year, we basically said, look, here's what we're going to pay for, and here's what, you know, we want you to be responsible for. And so however you want to come up with those funds, come up with those funds. Some members in our ward actually opened a business, a snow cone business. And so a lot of the kids, church kids, worked there this last summer, and Rebecca did, and she was only 15 at the time, so normally she wouldn't have even, I think, thought of working, and she really didn't want to give the job up at the end of the summer. But, you know, with seminary and sports and things, I just, you know, felt like it was too much, so. Yes. And, you know, it's funny because when our oldest, the summer after she turned 16, when we suggested that she get a job, most of the, like, our peers in our ward were a little bit shocked. Like, they felt like that that was a little bit strange that we would encourage her to get a job. But it was. I think it's been a good experience. The jobs that they've had over the summertime, I think, have been good experiences, and I would wholeheartedly recommend it.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] Okay. All right. A few years back, we did a survey about people who leave the church. And we found a few things that. We found a few trends. And one of the trends was that sort of younger generations were kind of discovering sometimes challenging things, things on the Internet or elsewhere, you know, historical issues that were troubling, things like that. And then sometimes we found that young women had concerns about the role of women in the church and, you know, women with the priesthood and that kind of thing, and that a lot of young people are more sympathetic towards, you know, know, lgbt, gay, lesbian people, and that sometimes that became a bit of a wedge for them in their faith. And I'm just curious whether any of those things, you know, have emerged in your families.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:00:40] Ever.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] Or if those are just things that your kids just have never even faced or thought about. Sarah?

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:00:49] Yeah, those things have definitely come up, particularly. Particularly with my oldest, the one who's on a mission now, Jordan, I think we've always talked a lot about women's issues in our family, and we've been very open about that. And the girls know that sometimes I'm not comfortable about it. In fact, we had a. Probably, I think, the best teaching moment that we had about that was when Jordan was a senior. Well, when she was a junior, they had this fireside they held every year for the priests. The priests and the stake to come and to learn about missionary work. And so when she was a junior, she was like, I really feel like, you know, I would like to attend something like that. And it just kind of. We just found out about it. Then the moment passed. So the next year, when they announced it in sacrament meeting that it would be that evening, the stake president happened to be in our ward. And so she says, I really want to attend that. I says, well, the stake president's right there. Let's just go talk to him. I'm sure it won't be a problem. And she was told emphatically that she was not allowed to attend that meeting. And, I mean, she cried. She stood right there in the chapel and bald. And, you know, he just. He said, absolutely not. And if you come to the meeting, you know, I'll ask you to leave. And it was not. It was not a happy experience for her. But afterwards we got in the car and I said, you know what I said, you have to understand that, you know, there are people in the church. And what you want to do, if you want to serve a mission or whatever you want to do is between you and the Lord. And you can't, you know, you can't base your testimony basically, on whether you feel like what you were told was fair or not. Like, you have to go to the Lord with that issue and. And work that out for yourself. So there have been issues like that that we've kind of. We've talked through. My kids are very, I think, positive about and sympathetic to gay lesbian issues. We have gay lesbian friends. And so, yeah, but we're really open about it and we talk about it. And basically, you know, our stance was, with them is that the gospel is about the gospel of Jesus Christ and it's about loving all people. And we haven't exactly worked through, you know, sometimes historically or culturally, how to do that. But that is, you know, the end Game for us as a family.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] Cool. Annie?

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:03:26] Yeah.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:03:27] I could actually talk for hours on this.

John Dehlin [01:03:30] Which parts?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:03:31] So all of the parts. So I. You know, it's interesting. I come from a family where on one side, my grandfather was the general young men's president of the church and was quite conservative, and on the other side, my mom's side, you know, speaking of stories and family stories, very strong church membership, but the acknowledgement that advocating and talking about issues and devotion can kind of exist in the same place and that there's a lot to talk about and a lot of room for everyone. So, for instance, my great grandmother wrote for years and years and years to the prophet about blacks receiving the priesthood. Years and years, wrote letters sent several times a year back in the days when the church was so small, you kind of knew everybody. Somebody was an uncle of someone or whatever. She passed away, and two days later, the church made the announcement. And so it was always sort of a very funny family story that grandma got up there and said, okay, this is what has got to happen now. And so I grew up, you know, listening to my aunts and uncles talk about a lot of issues. A couple of my aunts were instrumental in starting Exponent two. So I. So I have grown up with the kind of discourse where I have always felt like there's a lot of room for a lot of opinions. And then I have a brother who's gay. And, you know, that adds to the discussions in our family.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] Is he still active in the church?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:05:16] He's not. He served a mission. He actually, at the time he came out, he was living with us in Virginia. And, you know, it was clear

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:05:28] what

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:05:28] a painful thing it was for him. And he's very active in his own church community and has a partner. And we, you know, my family has all embraced him. And my kids know. And my kids, you know, growing up in Massachusetts, of course, that was not taboo at all to talk about or to have that in the school. So I think we're getting better, and I'm really glad we are about talking and being upfront about the fact that just as our nation has some things in its history that we're not necessarily today, with hindsight, proud of, or we wouldn't make those same decisions. I think that we feel the same way in some ways about some of our church history. And it's okay not to hide it and to be afraid of it, but to address it. And as you said, it's healthier, I think, for us to talk about and make it so there's no surprises. And so that there's no undermining of legitimate and true testimony by some facts that weren't made, you know, plain. Having said that, I don't think we sit down and say, okay, here are some things to be, you know, to be concerned about or. But it's just, I think if, if you make it a part of the conversation and make it clear that it's, you know, it's, as Sarah said, this is Christ's church. And if we behave as he would want us to, then, and in the way that, that you feel inspired, then you're, you're in, in good stead.

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Right. Right.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:07:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] Okay. Well, let's, let's talk briefly just about what it's like to, to blog. I, I've always wanted to ask these questions to a blogger. I, I do a podcast, which is kind of like a blog, but it's really not because I'm interviewing people, I'm asking them the questions. I don't really have to reveal much. I just have to be able to get other people to reveal stuff. But it's a totally different thing to feel like every day you've got to write something. You know, you're writing about your family. Sometimes writing takes a lot of time, so it can take you away from your family. There's a lot of pressure there, I think, to be interesting and witty. And I'm just wondering psychologically what it's like to be a blogger and whether those things are difficult and really what keeps you going? Why do you do it? So that's a compound question. But why don't you start? Annie?

Blogging, Writing, and Closing Reflections

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:08:09] Oh, I just, to be honest, I am just a writer and I love expressing myself in writing. So I first started the blog simply because I lived far away from family and wanted to kind of chronicle what we were doing and make it accessible to them. Pictures and a narrative about what we were doing. And this was 2006 and 2005, I think, and it kind of just grew from there. And what I found was that it was really wonderful to find and connect with people who were similar minded, like Sarah. What were the chances of finding someone with the same political leaning, same religion, PhD student of the same age, raising kids and going to school? And so the Internet and blogging kind of made it so that that back fence conversation of the old days could take place without sort of boundaries of geography. And I've never really, I've tried not to think in my private blog about writing for an audience or trying to impress. I've always Tried to be really respectful of my kids privacy, knowing that their friends can get on and do a Google search and find out what their mom is talking about. And that's not very fair to them. But I think with Nest and Launch, we definitely do have a community in mind and an audience. But the same concerns I think I bring with privacy. And I think it's really like I said about a expression and kind of bypassing any publishing or having to sort of submit things to be approved. You get an audience, you get a voice. It's, it's very democratic. So I think that's what brings me to it is just that sense of expression. And I guess it's also my version of our family journal. I'm not great about keeping a journal or a scrapbook, but I have a blog.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] Do you think your kids read it regularly or does your husband read it regularly?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:10:25] They do, actually, yeah. They won't always tell me they do, but I know that they do because they'll later say something or we have the blog stats and I can tell like, oh, someone from an ipod was reading my blog from our address. And actually in that way, I think as a parent, it's kind of a great way to celebrate your kids in a way that they can receive it but you're not, you know, you're not pouring it on them in person. But they get to kind of read like, oh, my mom kind of appreciates this about me or they get a little insight into my head that they may not always get. So I think in that way it helps them see me as a real person instead of just sort of this mom that, you know, folds their laundry.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] Right, right. How about you, Sarah?

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:11:20] Well, that was a lot of questions.

John Dehlin [01:11:22] I know, sorry.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:11:23] That's okay. To me, I really enjoy pretty much every facet of blogging especially, well, my personal blog, which I haven't written on in a while, or Nest and Launch. Typically the entries don't take a ton of time to write. Sometimes I'll put together one that's longer an essay that might take a little bit longer to write. But time wise and especially sharing it with Annie makes it very easy to maintain. Now if I didn't have any, it would be a disaster because I couldn't come up with five a week. But coming up with two or you know, two and a half a week is really manageable. And I just really like, I like the kind of writing. I don't get to do that kind of writing in any other, you know, part of my professional life. And So I like being able to just, you know, put it out there. And I like the research, like, looking at for things that I think people would find interesting or talking about topics that I'm thinking about and getting feedback on those. So there is a real sense of community. I will say that having a blogging partner really does prod you along. I don't want to, you know, we do have an editorial calendar of sorts, and when it's my day, I don't want to, you know, let Annie down. And because she doesn't let me down when it's her day, I don't think. A lot of people say that blogging is really narcissistic, and I think that it can be. For me, it's. I mean, from my perspective, it's not. Maybe from the outside looking in, it is. It's not so much, hey, look at me. Look at me. As it is, here are some things that I think are really cool. What do you guys think are cool? I love to read other people's blogs, and so I just. I find the whole thing really interesting, and my family absolutely loves it. They love to be on the blog. I think probably one of our highest rating posts on this launch is when Jordan's boyfriend came to visit us in Houston for her missionary farewell. And then he wrote a blog post about what it's like to meet the girlfriend's family. And we got tons of hits out of that. And fact, I was Skyping Madison yesterday, who's at byu, and one of her friends ran by, and she said, she reads your blog all the time. And I said, why? Why would she want to read that blog? And she says, well, she's been reading it ever since Luke wrote on it, so. And, you know, Rebecca's home. And I'll say, oh, I need. I don't have anything to write about for tomorrow. And she'll say, write about me. And I'll say, what should I write about you? And she'll say, well, write about how I really wanted to go, you know, to the place and you didn't want me to drive there, and I got really mad. So they really like it.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Oh, that's fun.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:14:04] Yeah, it is. It's really fun.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:14:06] And I have to add, you know, I think sometimes bloggers get sort of. It's sort of. It's a little bit patronizing, the sort of. Maybe some of the general opinions about them. And yet, you know, when you read an essay in a magazine, you don't think, oh, that's narcissistic, that they're writing about their life. You know, no one tells Joel St. On Time magazine, like, stop writing about your life. And so for me, it's a way to process some of my thoughts about parenting and again, to kind of reach out and say, does anyone else feel this? Is this sort of the similar experience with other people? I'm just really grateful, as Sarah said, to have that kind of writing available to me in addition to the boring academic writing that I'm doing at the time.

John Dehlin [01:14:54] Right. That's really neat. So you guys pay attention to stats and how many people are reading and stuff?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:15:01] We do. We do a bit. I try not to. Like, sometimes it's hard not to take it as an evaluation of that particular piece, like a grade from your teacher, like, oh, I only hit this much. But I think we pay attention just because it's interesting to find out where people are coming from and just whether people are passing it along. It's kind of a good indicator for whether it's being reposted on and passed along from person to person.

John Dehlin [01:15:34] Is it possible to make money off of blogging in our realm and kind of the spheres that we play, we

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:15:42] hear it's possible, but it's just rumor at time.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:15:46] The same.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Fine, got it. Got it.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:15:51] Yeah. I mean, I think we do have a couple of ads on ours right now because we were doing a kind of an experiment to see what it would be like. And I think we get. What do you think, Sarah? Maybe 75 cents a month or something?

John Dehlin [01:16:03] Yeah.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:16:05] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] You're doing it because you love it

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:16:08] then for sure we do.

John Dehlin [01:16:10] That's not so bad.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:16:13] Now it's good.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] Well, cool. Well, Sarah and Annie, I've totally loved talking to you. I want to end by having Sarah read an excerpt from her post that's entitled Had They Known at these Moments to be Quietly Joyful. I believe it's a quote from a book. And Sarah, do you happen to have that in of front front of you?

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:16:38] I do.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:16:39] I do have it.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] Go ahead and set it up and then talk about it. I think this is a. Maybe just a great way if I had to pick one thing to kind of end to give people a sense for what you guys are trying to do. And then, Sarah, I want you to talk about the quote and how it applies to your approach to nesting and launching. And then, Annie, I'll have you close. Is that okay?

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:16:59] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] Reflecting on the same quote.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:17:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] Okay.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:17:03] Okay. So this quote is from Elizabeth Strout's book, Olive Kittredge. And it's the winner of the Pulitzer Prize, so I'm sure I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but this is Olive speaking and she's thinking back. She's had some tragedies happen to her in her life. She's in her 70s and she's reminiscing back about a time when her son was junior high, high school age playing soccer in the autumn. They live in Maine, and I'm a little obsessed with living in Maine, so I really enjoyed the book. So here is the quote, and this is Olive thinking back. Quote, There was beauty to that autumn air and the sweaty young bodies that had mud on their legs. Strong young men who would throw themselves forward to have the ball smack against their foreheads. The cheering when a goal was scored, the goalie sinking to his knees. There were days she could remember this, when Henry would hold her hand as they walked home. Middle aged people in their prime, had they known at these moments to be quietly joyful? Most likely not. People mostly did not know enough when they were living life that they were living it. But she had that memory now of something healthy and pure. And then this was also part of the post that I wrote. I was so struck by this. Am I in my prime? Is this the best it will ever be? I felt both suspiciously proud and slightly terrified. But even more importantly, I knew that these are the moments to be quietly joyful. Yesterday when the four of us were in the dark car on the way home from church and we stopped at Sonic at 9pm for drinks and the radio played softly in the background while we laughed at Rebecca's joke, I thought to myself, had they known at these moments to be quietly joyful? And I think that, John, you're right, that this is kind of a great encapsulation of the purpose of Nest and Launch. And that's really what I wanted to evoke. I think that maybe there were times when my kids were little when I wasn't aware of that, that these are the times to be quietly joyful, that this is really what life is all about, being there with my family. And it's not a big, explosive, impressive moment. You know, we're not getting the job of our dreams, we're not buying a new car, but we are, you know, with. With the people we love and things are normal and peaceful. I was really struck, though, when I read this, when she talks about them being middle aged and being in their prime. And that kind of, you know, struck me and terrified me because, you know, first of all, I felt kind of Superior to Olive. Like, hey, Olive, you're a. Has been. And I'm in my prime. But at the same time, I thought, is this it? You know, is this all that it's going to be? I can remember when I was, like, 12 or 13 and the doctor saying I'd finished growing, and I can remember thinking, is this it? This is all I'm going to get. This is all I'm ever going to be. And so I think that there is kind of, you know, some of that to deal with as you get to the age where you're launching your kids off and you're pretty, you know, well on in your career and your family life. And I think, you know, kind of coming to terms with that and being appreciative of what is there and of those times that are healthy and pure. So I really. I really. I loved the book and I really loved, you know, her sentiment in that.

John Dehlin [01:20:29] Very nice. Thank you, Sarah. Annie.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:20:34] Yeah, I loved that, too. I really resonated with that post, Sarah, and feel that, I think keenly as well. And I think that going back to blog writing, I think another really wonderful aspect of blog writing is that you're able to sometimes capture, even feebly, some of those moments that you just kind of bank away and know that this will be something that you look back on as the prime of your future family. And I was made aware of a poem by Wordsworth, I think, in the book the God who Weeps. And it was basically Wordsworth was doing a trip across the Alps with a friend, and they were just aiming for this transcendent moment of crossing the Alps. Crossing the Alps. It's gonna be so great. And of course, this is paraphrasing Wordsworth. And then they kind of get lost and they find a village and they ask and come to find out that. And the last line is, we had crossed the Alps, that it was behind them, and they didn't realize the moment that they had crossed the Alps. And so I think that's kind of the same sentiment. I really. I think they're very similar. And I think as parents, you're often shooting for the end. Shooting for the end. When's the end in sight? And particularly, you know, during those really hard times. And so as you have those moments of clarity and just peace, those are the Alps. Those are the times that you are experiencing transcendence as a parent and as a human having these connections with other people. And I think also there's an element to nest and launch about nesting and launching yourself, because as you say goodbye to your children, there is a new part of your life coming, and it's about figuring out who that person is as well. So I'm, you know, I'm really grateful to have a few of those moments to kind of say, these were the wonderful times and I hope my kids remember them. But I'm very mindful of it, especially, you know, realizing that in the next few years, we'll be empty nesters. So it's a bittersweet time. But it's definitely really, I think just. It's hard to capture, but it's definitely something that we feel passionate about and want to explore in the blog.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] Yeah. Well, the passion comes through, and I just want to thank you both for bringing some wisdom and some inspiration in into my family's life and to the world and to this podcast. So the blog is nestandlaunch.com what can our listeners do to support you guys?

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:23:31] I love it when they comment. It's my favorite part of the day, practically.

John Dehlin [01:23:34] Really.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:23:35] Yeah.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:23:36] Comments are our love language, I would say. Yeah. Because the hope is that we have a discussion and that we are able to sort of build a community that can, you know, weigh in and respond and support each other. So that starts with comments, I think. But if you're shy, come and read and we'd love to have you.

John Dehlin [01:23:54] Okay. Anything else? Is that. Is that a comment and share?

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:23:59] Yeah, comment and pass it along.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Okay. All right.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:24:02] It's a low stress group.

John Dehlin [01:24:03] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm just gonna say it's my opinion that you guys should have a podcast. So if you ever want to. If you ever want to be trained on how to do a podcast, I'll train you. And then you guys can share your awesomeness audibly as well as textually.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:24:21] But I'm thinking about that.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:24:23] I think Annie and I should have a debate on a really hot topic.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:24:27] We're too similar, though. How would we debate?

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:24:29] I agree.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] You guys are great. So thank you so much for coming to Mormon Stories, and I. I wish nestandlaunch.com all the best.

Annie Bentley Waddoups [01:24:40] Thanks so much.

Sarah Brenner Jones [01:24:41] Thanks, John. Come, come, you saints. No dear toil nor labor fear, but with joy.

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