The Mormon Bishop Who Resigned His Position as Bishop From the Pul

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 1, 2024, and today we are super excited to have in studio the Mormon bishop who resigned his position as Mormon bishop from the pulpit. This is a story that we began covering a few weeks back when Bishop Mormon Bishop Nick Jones. A video recording of him resigning as bishop from the pulpit was shared, I believe, on TikTok, and it started sweeping, sweeping around the Mormon and ex Mormon Internet. And. And then we, of course, reshared that video here on the Mormon Stories channel and reached out to Nick, or he reached out to us. I forget how that happened. And we decided to. To have him here in studio to tell his story along with his wonderful spouse, Amanda. And so here in studio, we have. And I'll say bishop, because in Mormonism, once a bishop, always a bishop, right? Hey, Bishop Nick Jones.

Nick Jones [00:01:16] Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] How you doing?

Nick Jones [00:01:18] Doing okay. Thanks for having us on.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] And we also have in studio Amanda Jones. Hey, Amanda.

Amanda Jones [00:01:23] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] Thanks for coming.

Amanda Jones [00:01:24] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Yeah, all the way from Mississippi. And we're also, as always, grateful to have my partner in. In life, Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:36] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Thanks for being here. Yeah, we do. We are live streaming this one because we thought it would be useful to have people in studio or no, sorry, to have people sharing their questions or comments, and we'll do our best to integrate them throughout today's episode. But welcome to everyone who's joining us on YouTube, Facebook or anywhere else. Please do us a favor and subscribe to our channels. Hit the like button, comment, etc, and we're always grateful to our donors that make all this possible. So a huge thanks to them. So let's go ahead and dive in. Nick and Amanda, y' all aren't necessarily public people, so let's begin before we jump into your individual stories that that leads to this momentous event a few weeks back. Let's begin with intentions, because different people tend to make different assumptions as to why someone would come on Mormon Stories podcast, and they're almost always wrong, especially if those people are kind of orthodox believers. So, Nick and Amanda, do you each want to start by just sharing with why you wanted to come on Mormon Stories and tell your story? Nick, you go first.

Nick and Amanda on Why They Came on Mormon Stories

Nick Jones [00:02:54] Okay. This was never meant to be a public thing. We've shared this with a few friends who would actually take the time to listen to us who. Who are still in the church. I had actually wanted so badly to do it the week prior, but it was Christmas Eve and I didn't want to ruin the spirit of it all, but it was giving me terrible anxiety to come to the church building and to serve as the bishop for several months because of some truth claims that I've come to understand were just not accurate. And so we waited for the following week, it was New Year's Eve, to just let the ward know. And that was my full intent, was to let the ward family know that I loved them and that I just couldn't do it anymore. Little did I know that my younger sister, she actually came just to visit. She didn't even know I was planning to step down until that morning, but she recorded it. Now, I had asked my wife to do an audio recording just in case I said something that would get me in trouble. I could always refer back to it and share with, you know, whoever may complain. But she made a video of it and sent it to my family, my. My brothers and my other sister and my older brother, who I love, posted it on Reddit. And he sent me a screenshot of it saying, this thing's blowing up. And I instantly panicked, and I asked him to take it down, and he did. He was totally respectful. He said, I'm so sorry. I didn't. I didn't think about that. And we went to bed that night thinking this thing would just disappear. And we woke up the next morning to find that There were about 500 million views or not 5,500,000 views, and it was growing. And we noticed that some people had edited the video and posted it. And it was a little disheartening and somewhat of a shock. And so we thought, well, why don't we do the right thing and post the real one so people can know the true story and how I really stepped down. And that's how we're sitting here in the studio.

Nick's Letter to the Ex-Mormon Community

John Dehlin [00:05:33] And I'll ask. Amanda, I'll ask you this question, too, but what is your intent of wanting to tell your story, aside from, you know, why you chose to resign from the pulpit that day? What is it you hope viewers and listeners to take away from today's episode?

Nick Jones [00:05:53] People. People say that people can leave Mormonism, but they can't leave Mormonism alone. I don't agree with that. I can't leave it alone now because I recognize that it's doing harm to people. And so I'm taking a stand with my wife to have a voice for people who haven't had a voice. And, John, if I could just tell you this, it wasn't just thousands of messages have come through within days. And it wasn't just a, hey, we love you, we support you. It was, hey, I'm where you are. And I'm really having the hardest time working through this thing. And it was. It was like being a bishop all over again, times a thousand. Because you're reading confession after confession after confession, abuse case after abuse case after abuse case, and it put me in quite a frenzy. I was. I would curl up in a ball and just cry for days on end. And the worst part is as I ruptured my bicep and had to have surgery just before Thanksgiving. So I'm normally a very physical, hands on, labor intensive kind of person. And all of this came crashing down where I had to sit and not move. So it was just magnified in, in multiples of, In. In its weight on both of us. This isn't just me. My wife and I have been doing this together. We share everything with each other. We hide nothing, and we share it with our kids. We've been completely open with them as well. So that's. That's really how we were here, John.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] And we'll be getting into both their Mormon stories, but also what. What caused them to start questioning and doubting and then what events caused Nick to feel like he needed to resign as bishop? Amanda, is there anything you want to add?

Amanda Jones [00:07:56] I guess I'm mainly here because of course I'm going to support Nick, but I feel like a lot of people also look to me as I'm kind of following along on his coattails. Like when I have my own story as well, it's not because of the things I'm told by my husband. That's how I feel personally. And then other than that, like Nick said, just the people who have reached out to us has been so comforting. And I just hope to be that to somebody else. Inspiration or comfort through maybe something that they're going through that we're going through as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] Beautiful.

Nick Jones [00:08:36] Yeah. If I could say it seems that I don't want to just say the ex Mormon community, but the ex Mormon community has like mastered home teaching and ministry in a way that we're still trying to figure it out inside the church, but we've had some members also who have reached out and have been so kind. And that's one thing I want to be clear. I'm not trying to divide. I don't want to divide. In fact, I know members are hurt. Members of a ward that I loved with my soul are hurting right now because I'm sitting in front of this Camera. And I want you to know that I'm sorry that you're hurting, but know that that pain we feel. And we're always open, our home is always open. You're always welcome to come sit down and talk with us about anything.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:32] It's beautiful.

Nick and Amanda's Wedding Meet and Greet

John Dehlin [00:09:34] A couple just quick business notes. The first is that we are going to, we're going to be holding a little meet and greet for those who live in the Salt Lake area and who want to attend, who want to, who want to show up and meet Nick and Amanda and maybe show them a little bit of love. Tonight at 7:00pm, Utah time at Bewilder Brewing in downtown Salt Lake City, there'll be a meet and greet from 7 to 9. So pull out your pens if you want to meet Nick and Amanda. Thank them for what they've done for you. Come to Bewilder Brewing at 7pm you

Nick Jones [00:10:23] can, you can buy me a beer. I'm not sure I'll drink it, but I've always wanted to buy someone a beer, have someone buy me a beer. So

John Dehlin [00:10:32] I'm not sure if I'll be there. I may be there, but Rebecca Biblioteca will definitely be there. She's. We love her organizing that. So a shout out to Rebecca. Also, we plan on tomorrow having a panel of bishops, ex bishops, to, to kind of discuss the complexities of being bishops in the modern age. That's going to be tomorrow morning. My friend Bo came up with that idea and he'll be leading it. But I think, Nick, you might be coming back, so tune in for that as well. We've got four ex Mormon bishops that want to just have a little discussion. All right, so that's all the business. And let's just jump in to your Mormon stories. One really cool thing about your stories is that you're, you're not typical Utah Mormons, right? You're, you guys are at least right now, living in Mississippi in the South. And so let's just hear a little bit about your, your Mormon stories. Nick, maybe you want to go first?

Jonah and Tyler: Tell Your Mormon Stories

Nick Jones [00:11:31] Yeah, I'd love to. We're from Mississippi. I served my mission in 2001-2003 in Mississippi. I met a girl. And that's kind of a fun story that we can maybe tell some other time or maybe today. I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] But you were raised where?

Nick Jones [00:11:53] I was raised all over. I lived in, I was born in Idaho, moved to California at 5, moved to Korea when I was 6, lived there till 1988-91, and then from there Moved back to Idaho, lived there till 97, then moved to Houston, Texas, from 97 to 2000.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Were you born in the Covenant? Born as a Mormon, sure. Okay, so your parents were Temple Mary?

Nick Jones [00:12:16] Oh, yeah, my parents. My dad served a mission. My mom is strong in the faith. She's got a wonderful family that's very faithful in the church.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] Okay, so your grandparents on both sides,

Margi Dehlin [00:12:26] where do they live?

John Dehlin [00:12:26] Where do they live?

Nick Jones [00:12:27] One of my grandfathers, how many generations back, baptized Wilford Woodruff. So we were dyed in the wool on both fronts and on the other side of the family, Haun's Mill members. So we're. We're dad in the wool members.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] Okay, so you went to middle school and high school? Where?

Nick Jones [00:12:44] Houston. I went to Cy Creek High School.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] Cy Creek?

Nick Jones [00:12:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] They were in my district.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:48] Seriously?

John Dehlin [00:12:49] So did you live in Kitty High School? Say it.

Nick Jones [00:12:52] Say it again. Where'd you go?

John Dehlin [00:12:53] I went to Katie High School.

Amanda Jones [00:12:54] Okay.

Nick Jones [00:12:54] I know Katie. Yeah, we played ball against them.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, like, Cy Fair, Cy Creek, Klein Forest, Klein Oak.

Nick Jones [00:13:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Hastings. They were all in my district, so we. We grew up.

Nick Jones [00:13:08] Did we beat you?

John Dehlin [00:13:10] Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Jones [00:13:12] Oh, which high school again?

John Dehlin [00:13:16] They were great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We weren't the best basketball team or football team. We did okay. We were 500. Anyway, so you went to.

Amanda Jones [00:13:23] You.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] What, you grew up mostly in Houston then?

Nick Jones [00:13:24] No, I lived in Houston three years. Okay, maybe. Maybe it was four years. And then halfway through my junior year, we moved to Salt Lake City, Sandy Draper area, and I went to Alta High School. And I was a troubled kid.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:13:38] Not. Not troubled in the sense that I wanted to go party, but I just had no identity, and I was reaching to be friends with anyone and everyone I could. You know,

Margi Dehlin [00:13:47] that's kind of a tough time to move.

Nick Jones [00:13:49] It's a very hard time to move. Halfway through the year, you had really good friends where you. You know, where you were. And having to reset again was very difficult. But some of my greatest friends, one of them ended up marrying my sister. We had dinner with him last night. So good people here.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Yes. So. So how many siblings, real quick? I have five.

Nick Jones [00:14:07] An older brother, Tyler, myself, then Samantha, who I ate dinner with last night. Forest and Hannah.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Okay.

Nick Jones [00:14:14] Whom I love dearly. And they are. None of them are active in the church. I was the only one other than my parents.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Out of the five, you're the only one who's who?

Nick Jones [00:14:22] Yeah, I had this thing where I was like, I'm a bishop, and I have all these apostate members in my family. And I'm standing for them.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] But your parents are still in?

Nick Jones [00:14:31] My parents are still in, yeah. Very much so.

Mormon Survivor Describes Sexual Abuse in the Church

John Dehlin [00:14:34] Okay. So growing up, typical Mormon family meeting, scripture study.

Nick Jones [00:14:38] Yes, sir.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Weekly church attendance.

Nick Jones [00:14:40] Mom was always pushing scripture study, dad was always doing dad stuff, worrying about how to pay the bills and so, yeah, very orthodox Mormon upbringing.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Okay. And any other thing you want to say about. Let's just say up until before your high school years, that's important about your story or your family's story?

Nick Jones [00:15:05] Well, if we want to talk about abuse and things like that, we can. If you want to get right into that.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] Is that. Does abuse related to the church play into your Mormon story?

Nick Jones [00:15:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] Well, that's a sensitive subject. But if that's an important part of your story we want to hear about.

Nick Jones [00:15:21] Can I. Can I give a shout out to my kiddos before I get into the emotional of things?

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:15:25] My son Luke, he's 17 years old. He's worked for me for two years. I own a hardwood flooring business and a another meal that manufactures the floor that we make, that we install. But since November, my son has gotten up every morning at 4:30. He gets in the work van and he's been running my business and right now he's putting down 3,000ft of wood floor. Well, his dad's here on Mormon stories. This is. This is the young man that I've. I'm teaching to be a good man. And then my daughter, Charlie. I know they're watching right now, Charlie, Daddy's going to say some things. They're gonna be hard for her to hear. Things that happen to me. Opie, Alice, Sydney, same. So just know we can talk about it more when I come home. I've got some buddies in Texas. In Mississippi, not Texas. Jason, Wes, Eric, There's a few others. I can't name names because they're. They're struggling right now. But I want you to know we see you. We love you. There's someone else. Uncle Carlos. Look forward to catching up with you sometime, buddy. John. I'm just doing what Mormonism taught me to do. To be honest, to be true, to be chaste, to do the right thing. When we lived in Korea. This is 1990. Sorry about all the tissue, but I'm a little bit of a emotional wreck today. A man named Dave Bennett. David Bennett, I hate to say his name, but I will. Served prison time for pedophilia. He was led out of his cage, joined the church and was called to be the young men's president, To be the scoutmaster. My older brother, I'm going to speak for him. And maybe he should tell his story on your show, John. But there was about six or seven of us boys. He would have us over to his house on the weekends. And I need to preface something. Sometimes you'll say. People will say, well, where were the parents? What were they doing? Were they blind? Were they ignorant? Yes, they were blind. They were ignorant. Sometimes when you're a parent, you don't know. You just don't know. You're trying to figure out how to be a parent. So I don't blame them. I need to clarify that because I'm not here to do harm to my mom and dad. I love them. But this man would have us over to his place. Sleepovers, slumber parties. One of the nights I stayed, I don't even know that anything happened, except I woke up with no clothes on. He had gotten mad at me that morning, the next morning, and he spanked me. He had a temper. He was just a dark individual. And I went straight to my dad. When I got home, I said, dave spanked me, dad. And I'm sure my dad doesn't even remember it, you know? But I think about my kids. If I found out someone touched them, looked at them, what I would do. But the abuse continued. We'd continue to go to his house. We'd continue to go on church campouts. My particular instance was buried so deep, I didn't even know it happened to me guys, till I was in my 20s. I had just put it away. My brother received therapy, tons of help. I always thought that I was stronger than him and I didn't need it, so I just dealt with it. But one particular night, I couldn't move. I was drugged. I could speak. I just kept saying, stop, stop, please stop. You can't speak to animals like this. They belong in cages. And it wasn't what he did to me that was painful. Pain is a familiar thing. For me, it was that he made the other boys that I was with watch as he did it to me. This man was arrested, spent like a week in jail and disappeared. We have no idea where he went. We spent our childhood fearing that he was going to pop out of the bushes and take us. We get phone calls where someone would just stay silent on the other end. We always feared it was him. And he knew where we were. That's no way for a kid to grow up. So that's the beginning of my Mormon story. Wow.

A Former Mormon's Story

John Dehlin [00:21:29] I'm so sorry.

Amanda Jones [00:21:30] Really.

Nick Jones [00:21:30] Yeah, me too. But you know, What? John? I've been able to forgive him. It's taken a lot of time. I've been able to free him of the weight that he was carrying for what he did to me. And it was healing for me to be able to experience that. And that was actually recent. It's been in recent months, which has been part of my deconstruction.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] Well, thank you for sharing. I'm so sorry that happened. Let's just say going to your high school years. Well, do you want to talk about the impact that that had or on John?

Nick Jones [00:22:16] I didn't know. Yeah, I didn't know that. That's the thing. It was so. I knew it had happened, but I kept imagining that it happened to someone other than me. I just kept pretending, no, that wasn't me. That wasn't me. And. And I'm not a psychologist. I don't understand defense mechanisms, but I'm sure you could probably, you know, lay that out for me. But I just kept thinking, no, that wasn't me. That wasn't me. And what was so odd was I was on my mission when I recognized that was you. I spent many days in my childhood wanting to kill myself because of it. As I've reflected back, we used to have this home in Korea that was built up about two stories, and we had a trash chute that we'd put the trash bags down and the trash would come and pick it up. I used to always sit on the edge of that little edge and think if I could just land on my head just right, maybe all the pain would go away. But guess what? I have five kids just like my mom and dad have five kids. They have beautiful lives because they're safe. They're safe kids. And they're even more now. More. They're even more safe now than they've ever been because they don't have to hide a thing from us as we've stepped away from Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Amanda, did you want to add anything to. Up to this. This point in the interview?

Amanda Jones [00:24:01] That's up to you.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] Do you want me to maybe just any remarks or comments, we'll. We'll jump to your story.

Amanda Jones [00:24:09] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] Maybe when we get to his mission, but just in reaction to what he

Amanda Jones [00:24:13] shared so far, I don't think I have anything to add to it.

Talking About The Sexual Abuse of Kids

John Dehlin [00:24:18] Okay. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:20] I have a kind of a question. Do you feel like, first of all, just to clarify in my mind, how old, like, what years are we thinking of? Like, that this was happening, that nine years old. So nine years was when it started. And how long?

Nick Jones [00:24:37] For me, for my brother, it was about a year. His was a terrible case. And I'll tell you, the mission president in Korea, his son was one of the victims, and he ended up killing himself later on in life because of it. This has got some deep roots, but for me, it was really just a few instances. I was young. I wasn't necessarily. I was probably someone he was starting to groom in thinking, you know, in a year or two or in a month or two, this kid's going to start going through puberty or entering into certain phases of what he liked.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:13] I see.

Nick Jones [00:25:15] But I'll tell you, he was. He wasn't gentle.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:22] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:25:23] If that says anything. Everything I am, like, I'm. I'm a Brazilian jiu jitsu black belt. I'm skilled in the art of defending myself quite well.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:35] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:25:36] Everything I am is because of certain things like this.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:38] So. Makes sense.

Nick Jones [00:25:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:40] Where you can. Protection and safety being.

Nick Jones [00:25:43] You got it.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:44] Yeah, that makes sense to me. So do you feel like when, in looking back, do you have like a pre. Like a pre. Self to when this happened and then a like, can for you? Is there like a dramatic difference where like. Or did you kind of compartmentalize it and you kind of see.

How I Learned To Love Myself

Nick Jones [00:26:04] Yeah, I compartmentalized a lot of it. I think parts of it came out unbeknownst to me. Just. Just, for instance, me wanting to just end my life as a kid, you know, who wants to do that as a kid? Right. And as I look back, I was like, you know, there weren't terrible things going on except that thing. So why was life so bad? And now that I've looked back, I've realized, well, that's why it was that thing that was causing all of that pain, all of those insecurities of feeling like I had to boost myself up to be more than the way I would have appeared in the eyes of my peers. Stems back to that abuse.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:45] Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] So maybe. Maybe shifting to your high school years, you moved around a lot.

Nick Jones [00:26:59] Well, twice in high school. Yeah, that's. It. Had great friends.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:03] Was happy twice in high school, though, that it's four years. That's quite a bit.

Nick Jones [00:27:08] Yeah, that's quite a bit. I suppose so. Yeah. We moved junior here, junior high. We had just, I guess, finished the school year, junior high, and we moved the very next day, I want to say, from Idaho to Texas. It was very difficult. But you're young, you make friends, and it's amazing how you just naturally do those kinds of things. So it wasn't terrible, guys. I mean, upbringing was okay. Didn't necessarily feel like I was lost in my teenage years, I would say as a kid, like. Like as a 7, 8, 9, 10 year old kid, I was lost. I was miserable.

George Houston on His Youth Experiences and Seminary

John Dehlin [00:27:49] In terms of your church participation, do you want to talk about your youth experiences and seminary? Just whatever you think is relevant.

Nick Jones [00:27:59] Houston went to early morning seminary. I never graduated seminary. I made it three years. And when we moved to Utah, seminary was part of the school block schedule, which was quite a change. We were used to getting up really early and going, and I was just seeking attention in ways I probably didn't need to. And I ended up kind of being asked to step down from seminary because I was getting a little loud in class. And so I never graduated. I stopped going my senior year and just was seeking some form of self, trying to find out who I was and couldn't figure it out. So I left on a mission because I didn't know what I was going to do. And honestly, did I want to go on a mission?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:49] No.

Nick Jones [00:28:51] Did I not want to go? No. I just didn't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:54] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:28:54] And when you have a bishop who's, you know, somebody you've shared some confidences with and you feel like you can trust them and they slide this paper across their table to you, you take it home, you don't think much of it. So I went. I don't regret going. I had a blast. I met my wife.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Tell us again where you.

Nick Jones [00:29:17] Mississippi. The Mississippi Jackson Mission.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] Okay.

Nick Jones [00:29:19] It's a great mission. James E. Sheffield was my mission president. Love him. Love everything about the mission. And live there. I live there now. It's no longer a mission, though. It's been closed down. It's now the Baton Rouge, Louisiana mission. And the work is slow in the South, Very, very slow. It might be going the opposite way.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:43] Yeah.

How I Gained a Testimony on My Mission

John Dehlin [00:29:44] Do you feel like you gained a testimony on your mission? And if so, do you want to talk about that at all?

Nick Jones [00:29:48] I feel like I've always had a testimony, John. I'll tell you what I've had a testimony of more than anything. I had a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God before I even knew Jesus Christ was the son of God.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:58] Wow.

Nick Jones [00:30:00] I knew it. Like, I knew it. Until recently. I've had some serious battles of deconstruction. And I'll tell you, John, your videos with Mike and I don't know Mike's last name, but LDS discussions. You want to know the one that set it off for me?

John Dehlin [00:30:21] Sure.

Nick Jones [00:30:22] First vision, hands down. I Know that the anachronism. Anachronisms, the DNA in the Book of Mormon. I'm familiar with all these and I've known about all this for a decade, but I read all the apologetics and believed them instead of listening to logic. And Mike, how he's drawn this out in LDS discussions is incredible. Is so well done. His website is so well done. So if I could recommend anybody who is on the outs or in who just wants to know, I would. I would look up Mormon stories, LDS discussions. And I'm not trying to rep you, but I am. Or just go to Mike's website, LDS discussions, I think.com or dot org.

John Dehlin [00:31:05] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:31:06] The information needs to be out there. People just need to tell the truth.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] And we'll cover. We'll definitely. When we get to the part of your story, of your faith, we'll cover that stuff in depth.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:16] Great.

Amanda on Her Mission and Converting

John Dehlin [00:31:16] So on your mission, are you saying it did strengthen your testimony to the church?

Nick Jones [00:31:22] Oh, gosh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] And so do you want to talk about how that.

Nick Jones [00:31:25] Yeah, you're surrounded. You're studying three hours every morning. Right. Three hours with your companion on your own. Of course you're going to get more converted. Absolutely. I would say that that's part of the plan, isn't it? Get these young men on missions so they don't waver, ever, because of what the mission does for them. And that's really what I was clinging to for 22 years.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] Yeah. Yeah. So I guess. Do you want to talk about meeting Amanda and how that happened and Amanda, do you want to.

Nick Jones [00:32:02] Yeah, I want her to tell it.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] Okay. So, Amanda, maybe talk about your background before. Before meeting Nick and converting? Yeah, Whatever you think is relevant, that's fine.

Amanda Jones [00:32:13] I am an only child. I was born in Natchez.

Nick Jones [00:32:17] You look really hot on camera, by the way. Can I say that on here, John?

John Dehlin [00:32:20] Yeah, you can.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:21] You just did.

Nick Jones [00:32:22] I just did.

Amanda Jones [00:32:24] I was born in Natchez, so I've lived in Mississippi most of my life. We lived in Tennessee for a couple years, ended moving back. When my grandpa got really sick, we decided to move back here. My dad was actually talking to me about that just the other day because he was like, if I wouldn't have made that life choice there, you and Nick wouldn't have even ever met. So my childhood, my parents are great, always had loving parents. I love them so much. But my childhood also had just some pretty bad trauma. I suffered abuse from an uncle from probably age 6, 7 to 14, 15. So for me, kind of like what Nick said, which I'm a hundred times worse at it. I buried like everything in my mind. So I feel like my childhood is a blur. And I've been kind of working through that trauma over the past. Well, actually since I met Nick, because he's the one I finally felt safe enough to tell and it started coming out. But just working through that on the daily. So it seems like, you know, new memories will resurface with time. We, church wise, like, we. I was born, I guess, in the church because my parents were both members, but we were less active. For majority of my life, we would go here and there. It would always be like random days where it would be like the primary program. And my mom would be like, get out there and sing. And I'm like, I'm not gonna get up in front of these people. Or like, we would show up at church and the parking lot would be empty because it was actually state conference and it wasn't even. They weren't even meeting. It was like all those little scenarios. But we moved back to Jackson, we started becoming more active and by my high school years, we were going a lot more. Ended up being sealed to my parents. My 10th grade year of high school, my teen years. I was more of a troubled child in my teens. Now, like, understanding the abuse that I faced, I can see how I was kind of like numbing myself and my insides. Because in Mississippi, being a Mormon, I think there was like one other Mormon in my whole school. So it wasn't like I had a group of Mormon friends to get together with. All my friends were not members of the church. So of course I was doing things I shouldn't have. Partying and drinking, having a friend with them.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:57] Being developmentally actually quite in sync.

Amanda Jones [00:35:01] Yeah. With majority of the world. Right.

Nick Jones [00:35:04] Hey, can I say one thing real quick? That one friend who's a member of the church has continued to be her real friend.

Amanda Jones [00:35:12] She's my rock.

Nick Jones [00:35:12] She's my rock. As we've stepped away, she has been so kind and so inviting to just continue to act as if nothing's different.

Amanda Jones [00:35:20] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:35:21] So it's really great to see.

Amanda Jones [00:35:22] Yeah. She's amazing. I'm grateful for her. And we had all of our kids together, so it's really neat. Like same age, same gender. So they were kind of raised together. But my teen years, a story that I did kind of want to tell. So I finally, you know, I had my group of friends with and I met my friend. Her name's Brittany. So I met her and she kind of established this, like, love of the gospel in me. Almost like, oh, okay, I want to maybe turn my life around. I want to start being a better person. I want to start doing better. So ended up going and talking to my bishop, trying to, like, clear my past, right? Clear my sins. And this is a memory that actually resurfaced kind of recently. I was. Found myself crying on my closet floor in the bedroom and called Nick. So I went to him to sit down and try to get my life on track. So first thing he did is, of course, take the sacrament away. No sacrament. He took my temple recommend with note that, like, I had to be on the temple trips so that I could see my friends going to the temple and I would be on the outside.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:48] So a shame. A bit of a shame, yeah.

The Shameful Process of Confession in Mormonism

Nick Jones [00:36:50] Shaming, for sure.

Amanda Jones [00:36:51] Shame and guilt cycle. And then miracle of forgiveness. Had to read that and meet with him every week on each chapter. Which I actually had a funny experience there, too, because one day I was one of my good friends who was not a member, went with me up to the church. We were meeting on just, like, off day. And she sat in the car while I went in. And I came back out, and, I mean, I was just a wreck. I had been bawling my eyes out. She looked at me, she was like, and why are you doing this? I was like, because this is what I need to do to get through all this and try and clear all the wrongs that I've done.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] And just if it's okay. Just for people who've never been Mormon, Mormons are taught, especially as they're teens and adults, that if they commit a sin, like any sexual exploration, drinking, smoking, doing drugs, that the only way they can receive. The only way they can receive forgiveness. They cannot just pray to God and Jesus and get forgiveness. They have to. In your case, Amanda, you had to go sit alone with an adult bishop behind closed doors and do what?

Amanda Jones [00:37:57] Pretty much confess my life, all the wrongs that I'd done, and see what he told me to get my life back to where I could have the Spirit with me all the time and have pretty much the love of God with me.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] And so when he takes the sacrament away, can you explain to people how that is shaming?

Amanda Jones [00:38:15] Well, we take the sacrament every Sunday at church in little sacrament trays of bread and water. So as you're sitting there with your family and. Or your friends or whoever's around, people see that you're not taking the sacrament. So they obviously, because you just pass

John Dehlin [00:38:28] the tree, pass the tree on blood, press the Tray through and you don't take the.

Amanda Jones [00:38:31] Sure. They may not be looking at you, but even if they're not, you feel like they are. Because it hurts so bad. I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Yeah. So sorry. I was just wanting to explain.

Amanda Jones [00:38:43] Explain it.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] You're having. The bishop is the one that, quote, forgives you for God and Jesus, basically.

Amanda Jones [00:38:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] And it's a very shaming process that some say is inappropriate for a teenage girl to be alone with a guy talking about sex. And that he. And then Christians will like. Let's just say mainstream Christians will say it's offensive that he's the broker between you and. And Jesus forgiving you.

Amanda Jones [00:39:08] Yes. Right. Yeah. 100.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Okay.

Amanda Jones [00:39:10] Yes.

How A Bishop Forced A Teen To Attend Sexual Training

John Dehlin [00:39:11] So you were in that shame parade,

Amanda Jones [00:39:12] as I call it, which actually brings up. So ends up that I'm trying to do better, but I had a boyfriend at the time. We went a little too far with things, so I ended up meeting with him again. Well, actually, no, I ended up writing it down. My mom will probably laugh at this. Wrote it down in a journal like any girl would. Right. She found my journal and it was like the middle of the night. So she takes me and drives me to this bishop's house in the middle of the night, and we end up meeting in his living room. In his living room? Yeah. In. He reads all of those questions that you kind of were bringing up sexual things like, where did you touch him? Where did he touch you? I mean, very. He has details, John, very graphic things. And then by the time that I'm sitting there answering and get to the end, he tells me, I had to ask you these questions because if, you know, depending on your answer, your punishment would be greater. You have to punish me for my wrong. My wrong sins, which also, in hindsight now, how awful that is. And I want to clarify that. I actually just told my parents the same story at Christmas and they both cried with me because they were like, I had no idea. You know, you're taught that this is what you do when you have a troubled teen. You take them to the bishop because that's how they can be fixed. So it's not like I placed blame there, but that's definitely something that's not okay. And we have daughters, and my oldest daughter, we had a bishop as a family and somebody that she didn't feel comfortable going in with. It freaking breaks my heart so bad because she told me that she was uncomfortable with this person. And I let her go in. I let her go in to have a worthiness interview for a temple Recommend, like, this man across from a freaking desk can deem her worthy of God. It's such a lie. But I. I still, like, am mad at myself for not being, like, I'm gonna sit in there with her, you know. Why. Why did that not cross my mind? Well, because we're taught that it's okay.

Nick Jones [00:41:30] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [00:41:30] Oh.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:31] The conditioning is real.

Amanda Jones [00:41:33] It is.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:33] Right. And deep and abiding. So, yeah.

Nick Jones [00:41:37] Christianity institutionalized guilt as a virtue is what they've done,

John Dehlin [00:41:45] and it's part of a business model, because if you can get, as a teen or as a young adult feeling horrible about yourself.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:53] And that it's. The church is the only way you can become a good person is perpetual. That the bishop and the. And Jesus are the only ways for you to be forgiven and then become a good person. Well, then they've got you locked in. You're getting married in the temple. You're paying your tithing. You're serving in your callings because you are now dependent on their approval and on their position between you and God.

Amanda Jones [00:42:16] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] I think.

Amanda Jones [00:42:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:18] And even when you're saying things like troubled. I'd say, like troubled in quotation marks.

Amanda Jones [00:42:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:24] Yeah. Right.

Amanda Jones [00:42:25] Seriously, like a normal thing that most people face.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:28] A normal thing. Developmentally appropriate. And also, honestly, you're. You're coping. It sounds like both of you, with very real trauma. So you're absolutely just trying to cope and get your needs met as, like, developing minds. Your minds aren't. Your brains are not even fully formed. You're just doing the best you can.

Nick Jones [00:42:51] That's right.

Amanda Jones [00:42:52] And I told Nick, even a seed that was planted back then that I'm just now uncovering is one of the most hurtful things about sitting across from that bishop in his house that night is that if he had the true power of God that he claimed to have, he should have been able to look into my eyes and see that this teen is going through this stuff because she has some kind of hurt something in her that she needs to go through. And that's right.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:18] You needed love and you needed care.

Amanda Jones [00:43:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] And the church. I think the church kind of brags that they don't really have any formal training for bishops, that the bishops are just kind of. You're laughing. Is that true, Nick? Well, how much training did you. How much mental health training? How much formal training is a bishop? Zero. What?

Nick Jones [00:43:36] Zero. Zero. The only mental health training I've had is I have the luxury of my career. I audiobook all day, every day. So I'm trying to learn Things. And I listen to a lot of books on psychology, but zero. You want to know what they do. Signature cards are number one. You got to get those. So tithing can be processed.

John Wilcox on Temple Recommendations

John Dehlin [00:43:53] So that's Temple recommends.

Nick Jones [00:43:55] You're saying Temple recommends tithing because you sign off on checks and everything? That's like, number one thing.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Oh, banking.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:04] Yeah. That's when.

Nick Jones [00:44:05] When you're called to be a bishop. Like, the number one thing is we have to get all the signature cards in and plugged in today so we can process tithing, because tithing's coming in that day, and so the church is

John Dehlin [00:44:16] on the spot with the money stuff.

Nick Jones [00:44:17] Come on. I've got some fun stuff to tell.

Amanda Jones [00:44:22] This is.

Nick Jones [00:44:25] But, yes, you get some counsel, they meet with the wives. The Stake Presidency meets with the wives. And let's just give them some grace for a minute. They're young and have no flipping clue what they're doing either. They're just reading a handbook and saying, well, it's in the handbook. Let's. This is. This is the equivalent of the Scriptures, brethren. Let's stick to this.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:44:46] I can't stand it. And I refused to participate in the handbook. Part of the church. And anybody who knows me from my ward or stake, they know. Well, that's not. That's 100% Nick. He never played by those rules.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] We'll get there. But, you know when you're counseling an abuse victim.

Nick Jones [00:45:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] Like, you would just think, especially when you're deeming their worthiness before God, you'd think that they'd have some really formal training.

Nick Jones [00:45:12] John, can I tell you what I would ask when young women come to me with this kind of stuff?

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Yeah. But we will get there when we get to yours. I just. I just don't want to derail the story. We remember. We remember that.

Nick Jones [00:45:21] I remember.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Okay.

Nick Jones [00:45:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] All right, Amanda, back to you.

Marriage and the Full Reparation

Amanda Jones [00:45:24] Okay. So I guess we were trying to get to me meeting Nick. So that happened at a few.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Well, did you want to resolve how that. That interactions with your bishop? Kind of.

Amanda Jones [00:45:35] So I think that's pretty much how it played out. I ended up going through everything. Going through the full repentance process. So in my mind, like, everything that I had before had been swiped away, although all the feelings are still there. But yeah. So as I was going through that, you know, going through school and just trying to cling to the gospel the best I could because it felt like the right thing to do, felt like what I was supposed to do. And now, I mean, I wouldn't have Met him if it wasn't for that. So I'm definitely not ungrateful. And it made me a better person. It made me, even in hindsight, made me a better mom, you know, but it was not easy going through it. You feel so alone, because then you're taught to just, like, you know, you harbor it all inside. I'm really bad at that. I've gotten a lot better over the time. So just normal things as a youth. Church activities on Wednesday night, Sundays and then, you know, church dances, temple trips, all that stuff. And like I said, I was an only child, so my parents would have the missionaries over. We had them over pretty much every Sunday to feed them, if not multiple times during the week, because, like I said, there were not lots of members in my school. So they wanted me to, you know, see these wonderful young men who are serving missions and have better examples than the boys I was dating in high school. So that's how we ended up coming to meet. I was young. I was 16 when I met Nick. Just. I had graduated early. So me and my friend Brittany, actually, we made a trip out here to see BYU with my parents, and our plans were to graduate early and come to byu. And we both ended up graduating early and getting married and having families.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] So was that because getting married and starting families was what was emphasized for you?

Amanda Jones [00:47:44] It probably was emphasized in my mind, but it's also what I wanted, personally. I've always wanted to have lot of kids. I think that stems from me being an only child. Yeah, I would have 10 more if we could.

Nick Jones [00:47:55] True story.

Amanda Jones [00:47:56] She would.

Nick Jones [00:47:57] It was me that was like, I can't.

Amanda Jones [00:48:00] We gotta. We got five. And I love my babies.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] So really quickly. There are really strict rules about missionaries, you know, having feelings for other, you know, girls, men or women, girls or boys, about not dating on missions, about not, you know, being there to serve the Lord and no one else. So do y' all want to talk about the complexities of, like, developing feelings for each other? Nick, while you're in a mission, and Amanda, while you're not supposed to be, like, a missionary?

Married Missionaries on Love on the Mission

Nick Jones [00:48:31] Do you want to go? You want to go?

Amanda Jones [00:48:32] It doesn't matter.

Nick Jones [00:48:32] I'll tell it. Okay, so, yes. And. And here's the beauty of it. I feel no shame. I feel no guilt now. We don't now felt it for years, and that's sad, but it's also quite beautiful in its own way. Oh, gosh. I had the hots for her. We would go to their home. Her dad is just one of the More charismatic people you'll ever meet. Anybody who knows Terry Haney, they just love him. He's just a salt of the earth Southern gentleman who is quite gifted on a number of fronts, but one of them is his ability to sit down at a piano and just play anything. He can't read music, but he's got a gift. And he would play for us and we would cut it up and it was like, this is the coolest guy alive. He's got a beautiful daughter. His wife is so fun. They have us over at our house, and her and I just started. I think we were playing a card game with the family once.

Amanda Jones [00:49:34] Yeah, we were playing card games, and

Nick Jones [00:49:36] then we ended up playing a game called Speed.

Amanda Jones [00:49:38] I still have the card.

Nick Jones [00:49:39] She still has the cards. They were Coca Cola cards. And it was her laugh and her smile that got me. It was contagious. And for people to come in and say, you're 21 or 20 years old, you're allowed to look once. Give me a break. What a joke.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] There's that saying. If you. If. This is an awful saying, but this is what I was told. If you look once. Do you want to tell it?

Nick Jones [00:50:09] No, you tell it.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] If you look once, you're not a man. If you look twice, you're not a missionary.

Nick Jones [00:50:15] That's right. I look three times. I looked a lot.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] I mean, it's just what you're told. It is what it is. Margaret, you seem surprised.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:23] Oh, well, I've never heard of that.

Nick Jones [00:50:24] Really?

Amanda Jones [00:50:24] Neither.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] Wow. Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:50:27] I mean, on the mission, it was said all the time, you know, so it started there. And guys, understand this. I was on my way home. I was 21 months out. I really worked hard. I was quite successful. In fact, I was one of the most successful missionaries when it came to numbers and baptisms in the mission, maybe even in the history of the mission. I don't even know. Don't care means nothing. Because it meant something to them. It means nothing to me. But my parents got a divorce at that time. And I don't want to make it sound like I was clinging for something. Looking. Looking for something. No. But there was a sense of solace and peace I gained from her mom and dad and her through the trial of. I carried in my front pocket a family picture of my older brother when he was married at the Salt Lake Temple. It was a family portrait and it was tattered. But I kept it for two years. I showed it with almost. To almost everybody. This is my family. This is my eternal family. I took pride in it. And all of a sudden, that 21 months of preaching that particular thing was completely taken from me. And I was hurting. And to my rescue came my sweet wife.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:57] So did that particular. Did that happen on your mission?

Marriage on a Mission

Nick Jones [00:52:00] Yeah, that's 21. 21. 21 months. Yeah. I got an email from my dad on a P day. I'd heard things weren't great, but I had no idea. And it was pretty brief. It was. Hey, your mom's filed for a divorce. I love you. Sorry to tell you this. So I went home and I called him. What's going on? Didn't ask. Didn't ask. The mission president didn't care because I was that guy. I didn't play by rules like most. I never have.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] And just for those who don't know, what were the rules about calling home

Nick Jones [00:52:28] when you were Mother's Day and Christmas,

John Dehlin [00:52:30] twice a year, you could call home

Nick Jones [00:52:31] and you could receive calls. They would try to give you a time limit. No one ever obeyed that unless they were just complete prudes, you know, but

John Dehlin [00:52:38] that was one of the cultiest things about Mormon mission that they just changed. A couple years ago, you could only call home twice a year.

Nick Jones [00:52:44] Twice a year, yeah. That's it. And other than that, it's letters. And who in the Heck, when they're 19, 20 years old, wants to write a handwritten letter to their family? At least I. I didn't. I'm not a writer, so it was hard.

Amanda Jones [00:52:58] I wrote one.

Nick Jones [00:52:59] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [00:53:00] And I just found it the other day. I told everybody. Remember the one I read you?

Nick Jones [00:53:03] Oh, yeah.

Amanda Jones [00:53:04] He wrote me one when he moved from our area before going home.

Nick Jones [00:53:09] I had an inspired mission president. Yeah, he transferred me. The last transfer. And I'm so glad he did because I was getting hot and heavy with her. Not hot and heavy in the sense that, like, sex, none of that. But I was pushing the envelope. I wanted to kiss her, you know, I wanted to spend more days on P days or on Sundays at their house than in the field working.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] And the other rule is that missionaries can never be alone with anyone. They have to always be with their companion.

Nick Jones [00:53:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] So how did you spend time with her while you had a companion with you all the time?

Nick Jones [00:53:46] I had a cool ass companion.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry.

Nick Jones [00:53:50] I had a really cool companion. Jacob Campbell. He was. He was. I was training him, but he was a good kid and he understood. He knew what I was going through and he was there for me. What's sad is I wasn't there for him sometimes, too. I was selfish I was learning. But, yeah, we did that thing. I kissed her.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] On your mission as a missionary, you

Nick Jones [00:54:19] better believe I laid it on her. And here's the other thing, John. I told her I was going to come back and marry her, and I did. You know, and I bet people are rolling their eyes right now in the church. Guys, he got home.

Amanda Jones [00:54:32] When did you get home?

Nick Jones [00:54:33] I still got called to be a bishop. I still helped a lot of people. Didn't make me a bad person.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:54:40] We have five beautiful kids. We've had six children. The first was a stillborn. We had to deliver little Savannah Jane, bury her, which we can tell that story later, but we have. We have no regrets. And how we met.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] Yeah. Anything you want to share about that, Amanda, in terms of your memories?

Amanda Jones [00:55:01] Oh, no, I think that's all perfect. I knew when he. He opened the chapel door for me the first time he was transferred to our ward. He opened the door and held it open with that big smile he has. And I told him. That's when I just knew. I was like. Something about this guy I like. And.

Nick Jones [00:55:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] So when your mission ended, how did you.

Nick Jones [00:55:22] I called her mom and I said, I want her to come to Miss To Utah. And I got home.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] Wait. Immediately. When you. You're. You're 24, John. Finished honorably.

Married at 21 on a Mormon Mission

Nick Jones [00:55:31] I'm 21 years old, John. I need to get married. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:34] The focus.

Nick Jones [00:55:35] I mean, the focus is we have to have a. We have to have a. A family brewing. You know, she should already have some kind of immaculate birth by now.

Amanda Jones [00:55:44] Daylight.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:45] Daylight's burning.

Nick Jones [00:55:47] And so, you know, in Mormonism, masturbation, pornography, all those things are bad. So when you're 21 years old and your hormones are raging, what do you do? You hurry up and get married.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:00] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:56:01] So you don't sin, so you don't commit, you know, sitting next to murder.

Amanda Jones [00:56:06] That's right.

Nick Jones [00:56:07] Basically.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:08] Wow.

Nick Jones [00:56:08] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [00:56:09] So he got home, and I came out Christmas Day.

Nick Jones [00:56:12] You came out Christmas Day?

Amanda Jones [00:56:13] I don't remember what day in Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] To Utah.

Nick Jones [00:56:15] To Utah.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] So your family was in Utah at the time?

Nick Jones [00:56:18] I got home to a broken home. My. My dad had just moved out. My mother was working for a dentist, and the house was all in boxes. The home that I lived in before my mission, I slept on the floor on a blanket my very first night home. And we moved the very next day. So I helped my mom pack up and move into an apartment.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:39] Wow.

Nick Jones [00:56:40] And it was a tough time.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:44] Yeah. That's rather brutal.

Nick Jones [00:56:46] Yeah. So you can kind of see that I was really in a hurry to get back to her and to get married and to move on with my life, because this thing, there was nothing there for me. But she came up. I got home December 18, 2003. She came Christmas Day 25th. That was fun.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] Amanda, do you. So you said. So he calls. Do you want to tell the story from your perspective?

Amanda Jones [00:57:17] He got with my mom and got me or, you know, got a plane ticket out to Utah. So I was there Christmas Day.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] And you were 16?

Amanda Jones [00:57:26] No, I was 17. 17 then.

Nick Jones [00:57:28] Almost 18.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] Okay. Okay.

Amanda Jones [00:57:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Okay.

Nick Jones [00:57:31] So don't say 16. I'm four years to the day older than she is. Just so you know.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Okay.

Nick Jones [00:57:38] We were all legal before anything like that happened.

John Dehlin [00:57:40] Okay. So you're 17?

Amanda Jones [00:57:42] Yep. And we stayed out. I stayed out 17 days with him and then flew back home. And by Jan. Did you come January or February?

Nick Jones [00:57:52] I came two weeks later. You stayed 18 days? It was exactly 18 days.

Amanda Jones [00:57:56] And then we were engaged February 7th.

Nick Jones [00:57:58] Yep.

Amanda Jones [00:57:59] Then we were married April 1st.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] Oh, wow.

Amanda Jones [00:58:03] And I turned 18 in February. We. Both. Our birthdays are February 25th. So I turned 18 February 25th.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] And you guys did mess around.

Amanda Jones [00:58:10] Yeah. Married April 1st.

Nick Jones [00:58:12] John. I had no job, had no income. My mother had just come out of a divorce, and she had some jewelry that she didn't care anything for. So I sold it, I hawked it all and got a wedding ring for her. So I owe my mother everything for the ring. We're not talking right now, and I'd like to maybe mention my parents at some point. Not right now, but I love them. I really do. I know me being on this show is really hurtful to them because of how they're probably viewed by their ward members, by their family members. It's got to be extremely difficult. And I want them to know that. I'm sorry if I've made that hard for them, but I feel that this is what I have to do, what we have to do.

"This Is What I Have to Do"

Margi Dehlin [00:59:00] I think those are some of the toughest situations to be in relationship where for you, the thing to do is healing. And the healing thing for you hurts. Hurts someone you love. Yeah.

Amanda Jones [00:59:13] Yeah.

What They Didn't Know About Sex Before Getting Married

John Dehlin [00:59:16] So was it a temple marriage?

Nick Jones [00:59:18] It was.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] Which temple?

Nick Jones [00:59:19] Salt Lake Temple.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] Okay.

Nick Jones [00:59:21] You want to talk about that? Can I talk about that?

Amanda Jones [00:59:23] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:59:24] Okay. I. I had the hots for her. I mean, who doesn't?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:28] And. And that's palpable.

Nick Jones [00:59:30] It is.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:30] We're feeling it.

Amanda Jones [00:59:32] So

Nick Jones [00:59:36] were we perfect before we left or before we got married in the temple? Absolutely not. I went to Mississippi. I asked her to marry me. I lived in the same house with

Amanda Jones [00:59:45] her, in the room next to her,

Nick Jones [00:59:46] in the room next to her. And her parents were ignorant enough to think that I wouldn't sneak into her room at night to make out. Right.

Amanda Jones [00:59:52] They trusted me.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:54] You got some very important data. Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:59:57] They should have put a lock on the other side of the doorknob and not let me out. But then again, she would have probably been, you know, but we didn't. We didn't. We weren't sexually active, but we definitely got heavy in our. Our affection for each other. How can you not.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:17] And did that feel. How did that feel?

Nick Jones [01:00:19] Wonderful.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:19] Even at the time. Yeah. Did it feel?

Amanda Jones [01:00:22] Well, both wonderful and total guilt. Shame.

Nick Jones [01:00:25] Guilt. But at the same time, it was like, why? Because I love her. I know that I'm going to be with her. And that was what was so interesting. It was like once I put the engagement ring on her finger, it became more real. Like, you know, kissing and just having somewhat of a courtship is one thing, but when you are set to be married, all of a sudden, it takes a whole nother level. That makes things. It amps things up. And thank goodness we only had a month and a half of that before we were married. But, yeah, we. We messed around. Sure, we did.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] Well, what makes you feel like you want to even feel like you need to say that now?

Nick Jones [01:01:08] I want to talk about this. Because of the shame that we felt for seven years before we fixed it with a bishop.

John Dehlin [01:01:12] Okay.

Nick Jones [01:01:13] I'd like to get to that.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:01:14] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:01:14] I mean, I'd like to tell that story.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] No, exactly. I just wanted to.

Nick Jones [01:01:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] I didn't want you to feel like you had to confess to me. Right.

Nick Jones [01:01:19] Well, no. And that may have come out wrong.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] John.

Nick Jones [01:01:21] I wasn't saying it like that. So, prime example. Savannah. Jane. We get pregnant when We're. Gosh, honey. Six months married, maybe.

Amanda Jones [01:01:30] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:01:30] I was 19, she was 19.

Amanda Jones [01:01:32] Had Luke at 20.

Nick Jones [01:01:33] And we have a little girl that has a thing called cystic hygroma and Turner syndrome. And we found out at about five and a half, six months that she probably wouldn't make it. And we had had a number of tests done, and it was an emotional time for us. But the worst part of it was the shame and the fear that because we fooled around a little before we were married, that our daughter would not be able to be sealed to us because of our imperfections.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:09] Oh, I see.

Amanda Jones [01:02:10] Or even feeling like that's maybe why it happened.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:13] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:02:13] Or that's why.

Amanda Jones [01:02:14] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:02:14] You're doing closure.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:16] Yeah. Yeah, it's terrible.

John Dehlin [01:02:19] Did. Did y' all try to even to repent or confess to the bishop? Because what did you feel? This is important. So what did you feel would be the consequences of being honest with your bishops? Just so people can understand that. Marital stress, When a couple confesses any sort of sexual behavior with their Mormon bishops after getting engaged but before the temple wedding, what can happen? And then what are the results of that? Just for those who have never been

Marital Stress After Confessing Sexual Behavior With Your Bishop

Amanda Jones [01:02:53] Mormon, well, you could not be able

John Dehlin [01:02:54] to get married, meaning they would. They would. All the announcements are sent out for the non Mormons to tell them what happens.

Nick Jones [01:03:02] It's exactly what happened. And. And we knew. And. And the bishop who was there is a good guy, but I know how he would have responded to this. It would have been, hey, we're going to have to put this thing on

John Dehlin [01:03:10] hold, which then tells everyone.

Nick Jones [01:03:12] Tells everyone they messed up, which is an embarrassment. Right. And pride, fear, all of those emotions we were feeling, and we just kept telling each other, you know what?

John Dehlin [01:03:24] We'll.

Nick Jones [01:03:25] We'll do this. We'll get. We'll get married, and then we'll fix it. And. Well, that went on for what, seven years? Till we had Opie. Yep. Seven years.

Amanda Jones [01:03:36] Seven years of feeling guilt. Off and on for that.

Nick Jones [01:03:39] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:03:39] It lived in so long, we wouldn't

Nick Jones [01:03:41] even talk about it with each other. Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:03:43] You know.

Nick Jones [01:03:44] Yeah. It was always hanging over us. It always. It was just so unhealthy. And we finally fixed it with a bishop who I love. I loved him. And he helped us feel a sense of.

Amanda Jones [01:04:06] Closure. What would you call it?

Nick Jones [01:04:07] Closure for it.

Amanda Jones [01:04:08] Guilt, I guess.

Nick Jones [01:04:09] And he was so kind. There was no punishment. He said, whatever you guys have done, you've paid for and then some. And that bothers me, now that I think about it, because there's no. It's not penance. That's. That's. That's actually counter to Mormon doctrine in a lot of ways.

Amanda Jones [01:04:24] Well, some.

Nick Jones [01:04:25] Some Mormon doctrine in a lot of ways. Mormon doctrine. Spirit.

Amanda Jones [01:04:27] Did you know how anxious we were to even talk to him seven years later?

Nick Jones [01:04:30] Oh, my goodness.

Amanda Jones [01:04:31] Like, we were shaking.

Nick Jones [01:04:32] Shaking, terrified.

John Dehlin [01:04:35] That's just a lot of sadness and trauma. So you shouldn't stress that. You shouldn't have to bring into your first seven years of marriage. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:41] Where it's so hard anyway. There's so much to the other things

Amanda Jones [01:04:45] you're learning in that process of life,

John Dehlin [01:04:47] and it makes you wonder if your marriage was legitimate, if. Heavenly Father.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:50] You know, and then if anything bad Happens like, like you said. Yeah, yeah.

Nick Jones [01:04:54] Suffering. I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:57] I was just going to say like on one hand you're really happy like that you had a bishop, you know, be decent, I'd say. But on the other hand, it still plays into the systemic problem of like why are we having other people deem us worthy or not? Why either way, it's so deeply problematic. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:21] And this informs how you bishop as a verb later on.

Nick Jones [01:05:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] So I think these stories are important.

Nick Jones [01:05:28] Yeah, it's really interesting. All these experiences taught me how to be better and to not abuse those things. And I don't want to get into the woods and sit here and brag on myself of how. But I'm going to share some of those things because I know there are current bishops who are TBMs, True Believing members who need to change the way they do things and stop shaming people.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] We'll get there for sure.

What Would Your Couple Describe Their Young Couple Years?

Margi Dehlin [01:05:52] Margi, quick question. Your young coupleness, like when you think back to your early days, how would you describe what like qualities you either valued in each other or were driving you forward? You know what I mean? It's like we're together because we want to create this thing or this is what our love's about. Or if there was like a snapshot of you guys in those young years, how would you describe that?

Nick Jones [01:06:24] Go ahead, babe.

Amanda Jones [01:06:28] I feel like Nick, for me and he knows this was like my saving grace. Like I had been waiting for this person to help me kind of get out of the dark space I was in and he did that for me. Along with which I've told him recently, I'm like the person I was before we met versus the person I've been for the last 20 years in the gospel, like I literally clung to. I found this amazing guy who I love so much who's a returned missionary. So for me to be able to keep him, like I've got to stay on this straight and narrow path. So in my own head, like I almost made a covenant with the Lord, like I will never mess up again in my entire life if you let me keep him and our future family, like I'll do anything, you know, that was just the way I thought. So this past, I mean 20 years, that's how I've been. And this past six months to a year, like learning how to get myself back. Yeah, like the free spirited self that I love so much. Not that I didn't love my that 20 years, I loved it. Loved being a mom and raising my kids. If I could do it again. I would, 100%. But I'm like, wow, this is the me that I've been missing, though, because all the things of the church, like, suppressed who I really was before. You know, I don't even know if that fully answers the question.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:04] Makes sense. Yeah. Resonating hard for sure.

Nick Jones [01:08:08] Can you re. Ask the question for me just so I think I know where we're going with it.

Nick Strucker on His Trauma

Margi Dehlin [01:08:12] Well, one thing I kind of felt from you as an example of this was, like, almost a desire to create your own family, your own. Like, in moving in, there was this drive to, like, let's start new. Like, let's create, like, an environment that's our own, where we're starting over, or. But I was just asking when you came together, if there were certain things that came to mind right now that you're like, this really brought us together, and this was really, like, a propelling agent in our relationship.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] These things or the core values of the relationship.

Nick Jones [01:08:50] I'll tell you this. I. We have five children. I remember Luke the oldest, and Sydney, the youngest. And the rest is a big, giant blur for me because I had it in my head that I needed to go out and conquer the financial world so that Amanda and I eventually could go serve missions with each other.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:17] Wow.

Nick Jones [01:09:18] We could be mission presidents. And people say not to aspire in the church. That's just a bunch of bull. Honky. They all aspire to calling us. The first thing I felt when I was called to be bishop. I'll just share this really quickly was relief. And most people are like, oh, it's such a heavy thing. Yeah, it is. But the very first feeling I thought was, oh, finally, now my mom's family and my dad's family will finally accept me because of a calling.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:48] Wow.

Nick Jones [01:09:50] So in my mind, I was always reaching for a future day to be present rather than the present day.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:59] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:10:00] And I missed my life because of that. She, on the other hand, is gifted on the other side of things. She's always been trying to bring me in. Hey, this is where it's at. It's like music. You know, you listen to a song, what, to get to the end, to enjoy it? Because in Mormonism, that's what it is.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:22] Absolutely.

Nick Jones [01:10:23] Think celestial. Well, let's wait till the end of the song so we can enjoy the music. And to me, it's like. And this is recent for me in my mind, just to have this paradigm shift of realizing, quit looking for some future day, because there isn't one. There's Now, So enjoy the music.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:44] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:10:45] And dance, have fun, Eat, drink and be merry. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:51] Yeah. And don't you think there's even a shift from, like, I feel like what Mormonism says is endure. Like, joy is not even in there. It's like you just suffer, Suffer through it. Suffer through it for another day. So I think it's deeply, deeply ingrained.

Nick Jones [01:11:04] That's what I was going to say earlier. Suffering. Suffering is going to happen. It is just a law of nature. But the unnecessary suffering, that is tragic. And what we were feeling for seven years because we had some petting and it was. That was it. And we felt that we were damned and our three children were not going to be sealed to us, but to somebody else because of what we had done when we were kids. It's not healthy. Yeah, it's just not healthy. And it needs to end.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:42] Right.

Nick Jones [01:11:43] The shame has to end. The guilt has to end.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:45] So in your answer, I'm kind of hearing that those early years, you were deeply stressed and kind of in a hustle mode, like trying to build a life and all that meant achieve, achieve to this place where you perceived yourself as more stable financially also in all the ways, kind of status, and in

Nick Jones [01:12:08] the church in particular, I'm like the perfect storm. The abuse that occurred in my upbringing mixed with just my ambition and drive of just go and work hard and do the hard thing all the time, Nick, you have to do the hard thing. That's just a lie. But that's what blinded me from really being present with my wife and kids for so many years.

Nick and Amanda's Temple Experience

John Dehlin [01:12:41] Amanda may ask you a question about your temple experience really quick.

Amanda Jones [01:12:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] So when you went through the temple, when you were married in the temple, you both would have made covenants to God in the temple? In the Mormon Temple, you know, the law of consecration or the law of obedience or the law of sacrifice. I'm rusty on all the temple covenants, but there's actually John.

Nick Jones [01:13:05] What, the law of sacrifice. Yeah, Right. The law of consecration.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:13:10] Law of chastity.

John Dehlin [01:13:11] Yep.

Nick Jones [01:13:11] And what is it, the gospel of repentance.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] Repentance, yeah, those. So when it's been a while, it's

Nick Jones [01:13:19] already for me, as he says.

John Dehlin [01:13:22] So when you were making those covenants in the temple, the way that it was until just a couple years ago is that he would make those covenants with God in the temple, but then you would make you, as the wife, would make covenants to him.

Amanda Jones [01:13:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:39] Did that even. You know, haven't you speak so thoughtfully about how much he meant to you and how you were telling God, just let me keep him and I'll be righteous forever. Did that imbalance even register to you at the time, or were you super happy to covenant?

Amanda Jones [01:13:58] It did not register at first, no. I mean, I'm sure it registered years later the first time. I don't even remember much of anything because everybody tells you, don't worry about the weird stuff. Just focus on how you feel. I'm like, well, I feel great. I'm marrying the love of my life. Like, it's my wedding day. Actually, this one hit me hard leaving the church, because I saw actually a tik tok video of a lady, like, putting on all her temple clothes but saying all the things that the temple took from their wedding. And it hit me and I just cried. I'm like, I never even thought of it that way. It's not recorded. Like, you don't have vows. Your first kiss is not even on picture. A lot of people, like, friends couldn't come for me. You know, some of my family couldn't be there. And I'm like, so actually, instead of, like, centering and uniting the family the way they say they are, we're actually tearing the family down. Like, how would you not want your whole family at your wedding?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:56] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:14:57] But you just blindly okay it because.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:01] Because you don't know what you don't know. Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:15:02] The whole temple thing has hit me so hard, and it's been really hard being here. Like, flying in, I told Nick. I was like, man, this hurts. My heart is the first time I've flown here and not. Not been so excited to see, like, the temples and everything. Church related.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:17] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:15:17] But then I told him, driving here, too, I'm like, but it's such. It's like new eyes. It's a beautiful thing because I was looking at the mountains and I'm like, God made these beautiful mountains. And we're thinking that we have to make these beautiful buildings to worship him. And in my opinion, that's creating an idol of worship. We're creating these beautiful buildings for God. He doesn't care if we worship him in the temple. I've said this to so many friends lately because they're like, where are you going to go? What church are you going to go to? I'm like, my backyard. That's where I'm going to go. God doesn't care if I worship him in the church, in the temple, or in my backyard. And I feel him way stronger in my backyard than I feel him anywhere else. But, yeah, we have A cool backyard long explanation.

John Dehlin [01:16:05] Thanks for sharing. Okay, so y' all did five kids, and you, Nick, you were focusing on becoming a breadwinner, and Amanda, you were raising the kids.

Married Mormons Talk About Their Love Life

Margi Dehlin [01:16:18] You were maximizing all your in relationship tos, Right. Not to yourself, but your value is, like, very much in mothering and being a partner.

Nick Jones [01:16:28] We didn't have a marriage because of that. I'll tell you. We almost. We almost ended our marriage at 13, almost 14 years because of it.

Amanda Jones [01:16:35] We never saw.

Nick Jones [01:16:37] We didn't date. We didn't. We were roommates. We had sex. That was it. Honestly, it was like, okay, you're there and I'm here, and we're just grinding this thing out, and we're serving in callings. I think at the time, I was elders quorum president, was elders corn president, young men's president.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] Both.

Nick Jones [01:16:55] Both, yeah. All of those things. Right. For 20 years, I've been in the ward council, and not. Not been, you know, but driving separate to church. Driving separate to church, not sitting together. It's just years of separation. And, you know, one of the things that the church, at least not necessarily the church, but some of the leaders of the church say, date your wife. And I agree 1000%, do it weekly, because you can go down a path that leads to just complete misery and unnecessary suffering, which turns to nihilism and resentment and bitterness and everything in between.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] Yeah. I've spoken with many ex bishops, ex stake presidents or children of bishops, and stake presidents in Mormonism. And it's like between getting married so young, all the financial pressure of being the sole breadwinner in your family, having so many kids, and then all the service in the church, you have no time for yourself or for your marriage. And so, weirdly, sometimes those that are most successful in the church, especially as men, but also as women, they're the ones that sometimes neglect their spouse and their kids the most. That's a weird irony of Mormonism, because the church does seem to care so much about families and definitely markets that they care so much about families. But if you're living the model Mormon life, it just seems like you're not being the spouse and the parent that you really should be. Do I have that wrong? Do you want to fill that in, John?

Nick Jones [01:18:42] You never even occurred to me that way, but now that you say it, it makes perfect sense. I mean, you described exactly what I felt, and I just hadn't been able to put it into words.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:51] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:18:53] Yeah. Yeah. To be the best Mormon you can be, you sometimes have to neglect your marriage and Your kids.

Amanda Jones [01:19:00] And sooner or later, it's going to come to a head.

John Dehlin [01:19:03] I've met kids that are very resentful. Their dad was GA or stake president or whatever, but they're resentful because they feel like the church took their parents from them in their most important formative years.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:17] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:19:18] Because they have their dad in a fully different way now. And it's been beautiful to see.

Nick Jones [01:19:22] I'm present. I'm present with my kids. It's been a gift for me. I get emotional thinking about it because I've worried so much about some future day that's never going to happen.

John Dehlin [01:19:35] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:19:36] And the present is where it's at.

John Dehlin [01:19:40] But you said kids 2, 3, and 4 were kind of a blur.

Nick Jones [01:19:43] I don't remember it. I remember the days they were born, John. But I kid you not. I don't. Like, she'll tell me things, and I'm just like, I don't know, honey. I'm sorry. I don't remember that. And I have a very good memory. But I was trying so hard to do all the right things. And that actually ends up being the fog that licks you. Trying. That's the problem. Stop trying to and just be.

Amanda Jones [01:20:12] Yeah.

Nick Brody on Being Happy in His Life

John Dehlin [01:20:15] So I'll ask each of you this question. So how happy were you, Nick? Not knowing any different. How happy were you in those first 10, 15 years as a striving Mormon who was also trying to build a business and have so many kids? Were you happy? Were you miserable? Were you even conscious?

Nick Jones [01:20:37] I think I would say not being conscious would be more of a description. I was happy. I had great laughs, great friends, great moments.

John Dehlin [01:20:46] I mean, it doesn't suck to build a successful business, right? No.

Nick Jones [01:20:50] No. And that's. That's there kind of. I mean, I'm trying to figure that as I go. You know, people say, what do you want to be when you grow up? I don't know. I just. Just anything. I'm good. As long as they eat and they're happy, yeah, I'm good. I'll live in a teepee. I don't care. But I know them and I'm not gonna sleep on them.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:12] Yes.

Nick Jones [01:21:12] So I've made dang sure that they're safe and that they're protected and that they'll always have food on the table. That will never change, no matter what.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:20] What I am feeling so hard as you're talking, like, from you, this idea of, like, what happens when we are trying to live a formula or some type of a prescriptive kind of life, and it's that the people around you aren't real. They aren't like they don't live and breathe and have. And it's not. It's not like you're choosing. It's not like that. But when you're talking now, that's what I'm feeling from you is like, my loved people are real to me. I connect with them. I know what they would love, what they don't love, what they enjoy. And that. That's kind of now more of your emphasis. And what you care about is just that your loved ones, they live and breathe to you, they're alive to you.

Nick Jones [01:22:10] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:10] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:22:11] Yeah. Money doesn't matter anymore. And it's not because I have boatloads of it. We're fine and we'll be fine, but it just doesn't matter.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:21] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:22:22] Being present with my wife, with my children, and with the people who I trust, the real friends, they've made themselves known more now in the recent weeks than ever before.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:34] It can be a filter, can't it?

Nick Jones [01:22:35] Yeah, it's painful, but it's. It's beautiful at the same time.

John Wilcox on His Mission

John Dehlin [01:22:40] Okay, so going back to your happiness, living the model Mormon life in the south, you're saying it was a John,

Nick Jones [01:22:49] I've never thought this. I never thought about this. So give me a minute on it.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] No, it's okay. Amanda, do you want to ask? Because I think.

Nick Jones [01:22:56] No, let me, let me answer. Let me answer it. I don't know that I ever thought that way. I just went. But the reasons why were some future day of service. That's why I did it. Not because I aspired to be a mission president or. No, I just wanted to do the right thing and to serve people who are less fortunate than us. And if I could do all of that properly, that would be the life I could hang my hat on. And now I just want to throw up when I think about it.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:34] Yeah. It's like a very disconnected person. Like to your self experience.

Nick Jones [01:23:39] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:39] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:23:40] 100%.

John Dehlin [01:23:41] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Amanda, your turn. How was being a stay at home Mormon mom for you, knowing that you love your kids?

Faith Crisis in the Mormon Family

Amanda Jones [01:23:52] You know, I loved it like 100%. I've. I've loved being able to be home with my kids, which we kind of made that before we got married because my parents both did work all the time to support just our little family, just my mom, my dad and me. They worked their booties off my whole life to just make sure that I had enough. But we kind of made that before and said, you know, when we start having kids, I want to be home. Even if it means we don't have the things we want or need. I want to be home with the kids. So I definitely found happiness through it. I mean, I had my moments like everybody else, where I definitely would feel depressed or have a depression or have a faith crisis. And, you know, living with the mastermind over here, I always felt like my faith crisis was. Because I never felt kind of at next level with just church doctrine or church reading or church knowledge in general, which now has turned out to be a blessing to me in the moment. So in. My deconstruction has been a little. I wouldn't say easier, but he has to deconstruct. I feel like so much more than I have to.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] Are you saying you had a faith crisis before he did?

Amanda Jones [01:25:18] Oh, I've had faith crisis off and on. Probably our whole. Just little faith crisis, you know, feeling like.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:25] I love that. Just a little faith crisis.

Amanda Jones [01:25:28] Yeah. Feeling like I'm not good enough or I'm not the best mom or I'm not the best wife. I'm not reading my scriptures enough, not praying together as a family enough. I mean, plenty faith crises through the last 20 years, but I just clung to feeling better now. So we'll push through.

Nick Jones [01:25:48] I will say this. When you use the term faith crisis, I think it's such a broad thing in today's world with Amanda doubting historicity of the narrative that has been created. I don't know that she's ever been there, if that's what you're referring to as a faith crisis. But if it's one of those things where she's steadily. Always checking herself.

Amanda Jones [01:26:15] Yeah. To see if you're doing it.

Nick Jones [01:26:16] Absolutely. Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:26:18] Like.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:19] And in checking yourself, is that the idea of your measuring yourself and noting that you are. You are not enough?

Amanda Jones [01:26:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:29] You are failing somewhere.

Amanda Jones [01:26:31] Somewhere.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:32] And that is so by design.

Amanda Jones [01:26:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:34] But it's happening. It sounds like. So that's. That comes up every once in a while, and then somehow you kind of work through it. You begin again, and then you. So kind of cyclical a little bit.

Amanda Jones [01:26:43] Yeah. I feel like wife and mom in general. You probably do that, you know, regardless. But, yeah, I did it in all aspects of my life, for sure. Religiously included.

John Dehlin [01:26:54] Like a faith crisis in yourself.

Amanda Jones [01:26:56] Your worthiness, your performance. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:59] As a Mormon.

Amanda Jones [01:26:59] Mother and wife. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:01] I feel like that's so relatable.

Nick Jones [01:27:04] How so? Can I ask that?

John Dehlin [01:27:06] You can ask the questions. We ask the questions. I just want to know.

Amanda Jones [01:27:08] I'm Learning.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Amanda Jones [01:27:10] I know that.

John Dehlin [01:27:10] I'm kidding. Margi, go ahead. I was joking.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:13] Well, just. I would just say, speaking particularly with women, I won't. But I notice that comes up a lot, I think, within our space and the role given to us through Mormonism. There's just. There's so much involved there that most people can't do. The list. The list is longer and more involved than any human can do. And at any point, we're failing at something, so the blame can always be on us if we're experiencing something hard or if we're not getting the results that we want. So I just feel like that's almost by design. It's inherent to the structure of Mormonism and the role of particularly, let's just say, women. Yeah, yeah. It keeps us, like John said, going back because we're always, at some point, unworthy. Not good enough.

Amanda Jones [01:28:08] Yeah, I agree.

Getting Called as a Bishop

John Dehlin [01:28:12] Okay. So anything else about your individual lives or your Mormon family's lives leading up to your being called as bishop that you think is important part of your story?

Nick Jones [01:28:26] No. We were faithful members. We served. She served as a primary. She's the best primary president I've ever seen in young women's organization. She served everywhere, and I've done the same. Not to give you a list of callings, because it just seems like it's some way of measuring our. You know, our. Our.

Amanda Jones [01:28:44] But it was everything. Like, it was everything. D. Even my dad said it when this happened. He's like, I've told y' all so many times, you can take a break. Like, you can take a weekend off. You can take a vacation with your kids. Where we were like, no, we can't. Like, this is what we said we're going to do, and we'll be there the best we can. If we're sick, like, that might justify us having a little time off. But.

Nick Jones [01:29:04] Yeah, I missed two Sundays as a bishop up. One I had the flu and the other I was here. That's it. We were there.

The Power Dynamic Between My Wife and I

Margi Dehlin [01:29:11] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:29:13] Really quickly, what was the relationship, the power dynamic between you two in the family and in the relationship? You know, in. In, I guess, a rigid Mormon family structure, it's sort of patriarchal where the. The man decides and the man rules. And the. I mean, this is in the proclamation on the family, but that the husband presides and the mom nurtures the kids. Those are like the main. If I'm remembering right, those are the main responsibilities.

Amanda Jones [01:29:41] Can I say.

John Dehlin [01:29:42] Yeah, you.

Nick Jones [01:29:42] You. Yes, please.

Amanda Jones [01:29:43] Nick has never been like that. He's always wanted me to step up and voice my opinion and talk. And it's something that I've struggled with individually on my own, probably because of the idealistic things there. But he has never, ever once been like that. And one thing he keeps saying now is, I wish that you would have talked like this before now. I love hearing you talk. So that's been something that's actually strengthened our relationship. Not just now, but probably over the past seven or eight years. Just me feeling like I can step up because I am worthy, too. I have the strength to.

Nick Jones [01:30:25] I'm going to tell on her for a minute. When we were first married, I asked her to order a pizza once, and we got into a little bit of a fight over it because she was so scared to pick up the phone and talk to a stranger. This is the person that I'm married. It's not the person that I know now, not even close. So I believe, if anything, we've done the opposite of a patriarchal order in our home.

John Dehlin [01:30:54] Okay, that's. And that's. Maybe some Mormon families see that and some don't, but it's beautiful. Beautiful.

Nick Jones [01:31:02] I think it's developed over time, though, John. I think as it started in our relationship, maybe I was more of that, even though she's saying I wasn't. I'm sure I came from. Because. Because in my home, that was always the story. My mother was, ask your father. Your father is the presiding patriarch of the home. He makes the final say. So in everything that happens. And I don't know that I was ever uneasy about that growing up, but I was definitely uneasy with it when I became, you know, married to Amanda. Just doesn't seem right. So she's always had a voice, but she would never voice it. That's what I was getting at with the whole pizza thing. But now she voices it, and it's beautiful. And it just makes me more excited

Amanda Jones [01:31:44] to be with her because he was the one. Like, the kids would always go to dad for church, Christians in particularly, because I'd be like, go ask your dad. He'll have the right answer for that. And not long ago, I had a sweet time with my girls in the hammock outside, and we actually had an amazing church discussion. And my middle daughter was like, mom, why don't you talk like this more? You always send us to dad. So that was like, a beautiful experience for me, to just be like, hey, I can. I can do this, too. Like, I have a voice and an opinion.

John Dehlin [01:32:16] But, yeah, beautiful. Okay. All right. So you both are in it to win. How many years again were you married before you were called as bishop?

Bishop and his wife talk about their wedding

Nick Jones [01:32:27] We've been 18 years. 17 or 18. 17. Probably 17 and a half years. Not even and a half. I was called June 2nd. June 2nd, 2021.

Amanda Jones [01:32:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] So two and a half years ago.

Nick Jones [01:32:42] Yeah, it's just over two and a half years.

John Dehlin [01:32:44] Okay. All right, well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about, I mean, receiving the call. Should we go there?

Receiving the call to be a bishop

Nick Jones [01:32:52] Yeah, let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:32:53] Okay.

Nick Jones [01:32:53] So stake president came to our home. I had kind of assumed it was probably happening. It wasn't time for the previous bishop to step down, but just a number of things had kind of occurred, and I guess they felt that it was right, that a change needed to be made. So it was. He came to our home. And let me tell you, the stake president is a dear friend of mine. We've been friends for years. And so it was special. He sat down on our couch with Amanda and I and issued the call. And it was an emotional thing. You know, like I said earlier, it was relief. First feeling was relief. I'm completely honest, which I try to be. And many people say, oh, that's just. That's Nick. He's so arrogant. He's this, that and the other. No, it's just the truth. And it's probably the truth that they're not willing to confront. But I finally felt like I could be accepted by people who I typically

John Dehlin [01:33:53] wouldn't have been like, you made it. You were legitimate.

Nick Jones [01:33:56] You validated me. You gave me a validation of. Of having a seat at the table when in any other form. And what was so fascinating was my grandmother on my mother's side died like four weeks after I was called to be bishop. And I'm telling you, at the funeral, it was like I was the biggest deal there. And maybe, maybe they'll say that I wasn't because they're mad at me right now. But it was like, nick's a bishop. Bishop, Bishop, Bishop. Hey. So and so over here was a bishop once. And all of a sudden it was this phony back slapping. Hey, Bishop. How are you, Bishop? Oh, I'm good, Bishop. Good, Bishop kind of thing going on. Right. And so it felt good to get that kind of attention. Absolutely. I fed into it 100%. But then things started to happen.

Margi on Her Personal Call to Be a Bishop

John Dehlin [01:34:43] Margi, you wanted to say something really quick.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:45] I was curious in that moment too, if there. Just because you both have talked about shame and the role of shame in your relationship over Years. Did that come up? Did it feel absolving?

John Dehlin [01:34:58] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:59] Like, did it feel kind of like.

Nick Jones [01:35:02] I love that question. Do you answer,

John Dehlin [01:35:10] Like to take the sting away from the sins you had committed before?

Amanda Jones [01:35:14] Yeah, I wouldn't have thought of that before.

Nick Jones [01:35:17] Yeah, I. I didn't have a bunch of, you know, sins in my life. You know, I cuss like a sailor because I swing a hammer for a living and every now and then the thumb gets hit. I say some things, but I didn't ever feel like I was guilty for cussing. My moral compass was intact in even the eyes of Mormonism for the most part.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:41] How about for your past selves, though? I think that's what's hard sometimes.

Nick Jones [01:35:45] It was validating for that. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:47] Like our past selves continue to live on in Mormonism even if our behavior or belief has changed. Well, do you feel that?

Nick Jones [01:35:55] Yeah. Because even if you sat down like we did after seven years of being married and repented of this thing before we were married, there's still a hint of was that really fixed or was it not right? And so when you get called to be a bishop, it's like, oh, that definitely is gone. Because they definitely wouldn't have called me. Because here's the thing, you get a letter from the First Presidency signed by

John Dehlin [01:36:20] them, meaning the Prophet and his two counselors.

Nick Jones [01:36:22] That's correct, yeah. And it's, it's got your name on it and you've been prayed over and you are the man. Like, that's what happens. I've got the dang. I should have brought it. It's, it's. And it's, it's well written. It's. And whether they signed it, I doubt it, honestly. But if they did. Great, man. Yeah. See, this is opening up so many things for me in my mind. It validated me where I felt like I wasn't on so many fronts.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] Because basically the prophets speak for God, so God made you bishop.

Nick Jones [01:36:57] You better believe.

John Dehlin [01:36:58] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] Is that how you felt?

Nick Jones [01:37:00] It's exactly what I felt.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:01] Yeah, you too, Amanda.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:02] Yeah, that makes sense.

Amanda Jones [01:37:03] I just. My daughter, our 8 year old, now 9 year old, she came out to me by the fire the other night because it's always been a thing in our house, like, as long as you stray, stay true to the gospel. That's all we care about, you know? And so in her mind, like, that's what she asked me. She's like, do you remember that time when we sat on the sofa and you and dad said, just as long as Y' all stay true to the gospel so we can be a family forever. I was like, oh, it was a huge jab to my heart. But we sat there and we talked about it and that was one of the things that she brought up. What about the prophet? And I was like, what about the prophet? Do you think in this whole world of people that there's only one person that God would choose to speak for him? And as her nine year old little self said, she was like, no, mama. And I was like, do you think that on any chance that he is any better than your sweet soul is? And she was like, no. Okay. That's all we needed to deconstruct that little part. I was like, you can talk to me about anything, you know, because it's hard for them too.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:13] Yeah, absolutely.

Nick Jones [01:38:15] Yeah, it's beautiful.

Bishop Qualification Training

John Dehlin [01:38:20] Okay, so you got that validation and you start serving as bishop. We talked about training. How much training did you get?

Nick Jones [01:38:27] What was it, honey? 30, 40 minutes?

Amanda Jones [01:38:29] Oh, yeah.

Nick Jones [01:38:31] I mean, she was there for it. That was the training we got.

The Love of My Savior's Mission

Margi Dehlin [01:38:33] Wait, can I just shift for a minute to Amanda in this, like, Amanda, what did you feel in the moment? What were the emotions or feelings that you had as he was extended this call? And did you have any feelings about your effort and work level likely going up or it affecting how much time you had with him?

John Dehlin [01:38:55] And was it validating to you?

Amanda Jones [01:38:57] It was for sure. Because we're in, you know, Mississippi and we're like, okay, we, we're called to this. We're going to do our best and we're going to try to grow the gospel here in our little area of Mississippi. So we were both, definitely, both really proud and felt validated. I didn't worry as much about how much time it would take from him because I feel like he's been gone so much over the years, you know, building up to this. So I felt like this is what was going to happen next sooner or later. So, like, for us, it was a really good day, really good couple of days. We went to the temple and had a great day together. Yeah, it all felt really good. It's like you were on cloud nine almost for at least a week.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:44] Right. It's like you've been crowned.

Amanda Jones [01:39:47] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:48] You've arrived.

Nick Jones [01:39:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:50] Is that the Atlanta tipple?

Nick Jones [01:39:51] No, Baton Rouge is our closest yet.

Amanda Jones [01:39:53] Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

Nick Jones [01:39:55] Yeah. Our closest temple is about a two and a half hour, three hour drive.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. So any other questions? Margi for Amanda. Okay. Okay. So you get the call. Not a lot of training. Do you want to just give our never Mormons, like a one minute overview of what a bishop's responsible for? Mormon bishop.

What A Bishop Is Really Responsible For

Nick Jones [01:40:17] Yeah. Gosh, why don't I pull it up in the handbook? I don't have it memorized anymore.

John Dehlin [01:40:23] I just, just generally just the main

Nick Jones [01:40:26] things, they're over the funds. Welfare, common judge in Israel, which is the one I have the biggest issue with. I'll elaborate on that. They preside over the meetings. It's another thing that drives me crazy, is that they would make me take the sacrament before anyone. It was one of the things that just made me cringe, couldn't do it. I'm no different than anyone else. But in a nutshell, that's kind of what we do.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] Do you decide who gets what calling?

Nick Jones [01:41:02] Absolutely, yes. I'm sorry. Yes. We decide on who serves, where they serve, how it's done. They leave it up to the discretion of the bishop and his counselors to make all of those decisions. We sit on a stand in church on a Sunday and everybody is literally waiting on us to give the command.

John Dehlin [01:41:23] And then if, if a marriage is in trouble in your ward,

Nick Jones [01:41:30] we were called to give them counsel. And I.

John Dehlin [01:41:32] The couple. The couple would come to you.

Nick Jones [01:41:34] The couple would come to me. A construction worker. Literally a construction worker, John. I have big meaty hands because I've swung a hammer for 20 years. That's it. But all of a sudden what I have to say is validated in their eyes to save their marriage. That's a weight in and of itself that most people just don't even consider.

John Dehlin [01:41:58] Is it overreaching to say that a Mormon believes that their bishop speaks for God?

Nick Jones [01:42:06] No, that's accurate.

John Dehlin [01:42:10] When a young couple comes to you, or an old couple or whatever, and they're seeking advice and then you give advice, how is that received when they go back home?

Nick Jones [01:42:20] Well, I've been on both sides of that. I've been on the side of me being the bishop and also being on the other end of it. You take what they say to heart, you live it, and then you sit back and wait to see the fruits of it.

John Dehlin [01:42:34] Yeah. And then repentance. Right. If somebody makes a mistake or feels like they've done sin, what's your role as bishop?

Nick Jones [01:42:44] To give them some sense of reconciliation, to feel like they're made whole again, to let them know that they're good enough. This triggers me.

John Dehlin [01:42:56] Yeah, yeah.

Nick Jones [01:42:57] I get really angry when I talk about this.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:59] And that's your, that is your version, right? That's your sense of yeah, Other bishops,

Nick Jones [01:43:07] others see it different. Yeah, I know these bishops, I've served with them. I love them. I don't agree with them, but nonetheless, I would never join forces with that mentality.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:20] That's right. And this is informed by your own experience and people you love, their experience. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] And did you mention temple recommends in your role there?

Nick Jones [01:43:30] Oh, yeah, I haven't mentioned it, but yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:32] It's a big part of people what that's about.

Nick Jones [01:43:34] Yeah. Fifteen questions.

What is the Temple?

John Dehlin [01:43:36] So somebody wants to go to the temple, get married, do baptisms for the dead. Basically, the Mormon Temple is where the most sacred ordinances are held, including the personal endowment, the washings and anointings, the endowment and then the temple marriage. But in order to be able to go to the temple, first you have

Nick Jones [01:43:55] to be interviewed by a bishop or a member of the bishopric and then stake presidency. So it's a double interview. You have to do it twice, as if the first guys didn't quite get it right.

John Dehlin [01:44:08] So there's a bunch of questions, 15 questions. Things like,

Nick Jones [01:44:13] do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? I can list them all out right now if you want.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] List a couple of them.

Temple Recommendations 1

Nick Jones [01:44:20] All right. Do you sustain the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the prophet, seer and revelator and as the only person on earth who is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you support or sustain any practices, teachings or doctrine contrary to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Do you understand and obey the word of wisdom? Do you live the law of chastity? Are there any sins in your life that need to be resolved as part of your repentance process by priesthood authority? As part of your repentance process, do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? Do you wear the garment, the temple garment, as is instructed in the endowment? Oh, how does it go? Gosh.

John Dehlin [01:45:05] Day and night?

Nick Jones [01:45:06] No. Do you keep the covenants you made with God in the temple? No, not God. I added that. I added that because it made it more here. I made a covenant with God. Do you keep the covenants you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment? So in the temple recommend interviews, you're asking in if they wear their underwear the way they're supposed to wear their underwear, basically.

Amanda Jones [01:45:27] Right.

Nick Jones [01:45:29] Among other things, you know, do you have a testimony of the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Do you have a testimony of the atonement of Jesus Christ and his role as your savior and redeemer. And it's not just the prophet, it's followed by the question with the prophet him holding the keys to. Do you sustain the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve apostles as prophets, seers and revelators? Do you sustain all other general authorities and local leaders of the church? If you don't do any of these things, you don't get to go.

Tithing Question and Purpose

John Dehlin [01:45:54] Did you mention tithing? The tithing question.

Nick Jones [01:45:56] Can I tell you what I did? Can I tell you something?

John Dehlin [01:45:59] Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [01:46:01] you're getting a mischievous, like a little.

Nick Jones [01:46:03] I was angry.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] We'll start with the way the question's asked.

Nick Jones [01:46:07] What's that?

John Dehlin [01:46:07] How's the question asked?

Nick Jones [01:46:09] Which question? Are you a full tithe pair?

John Dehlin [01:46:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:12] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:46:13] Simple.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] Yeah. Okay.

Nick Jones [01:46:14] Are you a full tithe pair?

John Dehlin [01:46:15] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:46:16] So every year you have to report tithing. And I was angry at the church.

John Dehlin [01:46:21] Talk about tithing settlement and what that is.

Nick Jones [01:46:24] It's tithing declaration, John. Oh, sorry, they changed the name.

John Dehlin [01:46:27] Okay.

Nick Jones [01:46:28] You're declaring your tithing and

John Dehlin [01:46:33] what's the purpose of tithing settlement?

Nick Jones [01:46:35] I don't understand the purpose in today's world because it's all done online. You can go and you can look at your tithing and know that whether or not you're accurate or not, tithing settlement back in the day is because you kept these yellow sheets of what you paid and you brought them forward and you basically had an accounting where you compared what the church records are compared to your records to make sure they lined up. That was a tithing settlement to declare whether or not you were a full tithe payer or a part tithe payer or a non tithe pair.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:02] And to shame you, according to.

Amanda Jones [01:47:03] I was going to say, I know why you're recording there.

Nick Jones [01:47:06] Go to the temple. Say it again.

Amanda Jones [01:47:08] That I know why you still. Because if you're sitting, if they're sitting in there with you and they're not, it's going to make them feel bad.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:13] That's right, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:16] So it's not just to shame them, it's to keep them. So like if I'm a dad, tell, tell, tell her, tell us if I'm exaggerating. If my, if I'm a dad and my daughter is 21 and getting married in the temple. Right. And I haven't been paying my tithing and my daughter's about to go in the temple to get married, I got to come to you to. To get a temple recommend.

Nick Jones [01:47:40] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:47:40] And if I haven't Been paying my tithing. How does that play out with a normal Mormon bishop?

Nick Jones [01:47:45] Either you. You pay a back pay to make yourself good and current or you don't go.

John Dehlin [01:47:55] A dad doesn't see his own child's wedding. Or more.

Nick Jones [01:47:58] Actually, I have a recent friend that couldn't go to her own son's wedding. Not based on particularly tithing, but yeah. How wrong is that? Her own son's wedding.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] So the bishops are the enforcer to make sure people are paying the church money, basically. Is that right?

Nick Jones [01:48:13] That's right,

John Dehlin [01:48:15] yeah. And then explain what it's like socially if a dad isn't at his daughter's temple wedding or a mom isn't at her son's temple wedding. What is that? What? What. How is that interpreted by the surrounding family?

Ex-Mormon Bishop on His Reasons For Not Taking the Sacrament

Nick Jones [01:48:30] And we talked about suffering which happens, but then we talked about unnecessary suffering. That's all that is just not necessary. It creates suffering that shouldn't exist.

John Dehlin [01:48:41] Because those people, what is assumed about those people, that they're not worthy, meaning what? In the minds of members, they're not good enough. But they probably did what?

Nick Jones [01:48:50] Sinned, committed some sin. And it might be omission or commission, it doesn't matter. Still sin.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] But they're thinking either he masturbates and has a pornography problem.

Nick Jones [01:49:00] Of course, people are thinking right now as they watch me on this phase film, that there's something way off. He sinned, he's done this great thing and that's why he couldn't stay.

John Dehlin [01:49:11] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:49:11] Couldn't be further from the truth. I couldn't do it because I saw the corruption within firsthand and I couldn't participate in anymore. I wouldn't.

John Dehlin [01:49:19] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:49:20] And we can get into that.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:21] I think the consequence of what you're saying too is this idea that the ward members in that situation, because it is a culture based on conformity and control. It's like you're identified as a danger. Like you're othered in that moment. You're now suspect in the community and your family members are a little bit like, pitied. Like we kind of need to reach out to them and offer them more because now they have a parent. That's not right.

John Dehlin [01:49:57] Yeah, yeah. I was just, you know the shame period we talked about with Amanda, with you not taking the sacrament, isn't it kind of exponentially worse when an adult is not allowed to go to the temple? Especially for something as sacred as, you know, a temple wedding?

Margi Dehlin [01:50:12] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [01:50:13] Not worthy enough to enter God's house. I'm like, God's house? God would Let anybody in his house to fill of his love. That's where my 9 year old struggled because we. This all happened the week before she was going to go on her first simple trip.

Nick Jones [01:50:29] 11 year old Alice.

Amanda Jones [01:50:30] Oh, sorry. Yeah, she's 11, she's not nine. Yeah. So it was going to be her first simple trip. So she was a little sad about that. So we talked about it and I told her, I was like, that's what makes me so sad though. They say you have to wait until you're 12 to enter the house of God. Or in my opinion, she's a hundred times more worthy to enter than I even am, you know, but. But instead we put this sight in their mind so that they have to work towards that, so that they have to be worthy enough that's already setting in their mind that their worth is not great enough, that they have to make their worth. They have to grow themselves to be worthy. Oh, it's just so many things.

Nick Jones [01:51:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] So I mean the bishop really is. I mean sometimes there are people that get annoyed. Why do you, why are you so like calling focused on Mormon stories? Why is it so important for you to have a regular rotation of ex Mormon bishops on Mormon stories or X State presidents or ex Relief Society presidents? All I can say is it's because the church is a patriarchy run on power and authority. And so power and authority matters. And so if a bishop chooses to leave the church or even question the church members are going to pay attention to that. And that's partly why, why we're sitting here and why your TikTok exploded. It's because members are like, what? A bishop can't lose their faith, let alone resign. You know what I mean?

Nick Jones [01:52:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:52:03] John, five bishops have reached out to me and two stake presidents actively sitting bishops.

John Dehlin [01:52:09] So you've spoken with five actively serving bishops and two actively serving stake presidents.

Nick Jones [01:52:15] Yes. Wow. They told me that I gave them the courage to do what they feel that they couldn't do. Now whether or not they are actually going to do it or not, I don't know, I don't care. But they have my support either way.

John Dehlin [01:52:30] Wow. Yeah. Okay, so those are. I think we covered the main functions of being a bishop.

Nick Jones [01:52:38] Yeah.

Bishop on Pornography and Masturbation

John Dehlin [01:52:41] And I guess maybe talk about the parts you loved and the parts you hated and for the parts you hated, why you hated them. If you want parts I loved.

Nick Jones [01:52:51] Well, there's a part that I think is somewhat the ego climbing out and saying, hey, look at me. People are turning to me for advice and that's okay, but I didn't feed that very much. I'll tell you what triggered me at the very beginning. I had a young man who was preparing for a mission. He had a problem with pornography and masturbation. And I didn't know how to handle it because there was no training. Right, John? No training.

John Dehlin [01:53:20] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:53:20] How do you handle that? So I called the stake president, I said, hey, I've got this thing going on. How do I handle it? Well, in his defense, he never served as a bishop. He served as a counselor in the Stake Presidency and then served as the stake President, but his two counselors both served as bishops. And he says their answer for pornography and masturbation is four weeks. And I said, okay. So I sat him down, I said, four weeks, no sacrament. And then I got to thinking about it. It's like, doesn't that sound a little Catholic? Like, you know, a few Hail Marys and you're back. It didn't feel right to me. It didn't. It didn't feel like it was going to fix the problem. And I'd actually asked the young man, what, has this happened before? Well, sure. So obviously these little four week intervals of no sacrament is not helping the problem. So I started listening to a therapist. She has a podcast, Sarah Brewer. I forget what it's called now. I can't think of it. But she teaches how to conquer the triggers and the anxiety that is brought on by pornography and masturbation. And it helped me help him to say, hey, there's nothing wrong with you. And here's the thing, instead of not taking the sacrament, I changed up. Take the sacrament, bless the sacrament, go to the temple, do those things to help draw you closer to God so that you can overcome this thing. Now, given, I see it completely differently now, but then two and a half years ago, that's how I saw it. But things changed. Had a young, young woman come to me. This is gonna be hard for me to tell. Can I have some of those tissues? Young woman came to me. She was bawling. She said, I had sex and she just felt so rotten. I was sitting there just crying with her while she cried. Because I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to answer anything. But then she asked, don't you need to know the details? And given I've been a bishop for maybe two months, I said, absolutely not. I don't want to know the details. I want to know two things. One, were you raped? And two, is there a possibility that you're pregnant? Because if so, we need to talk to your mom and dad. That's it. And that's how I handled every single one of those cases after that. And she asked me, well, what about the sacrament? I wasn't gonna damn sure wasn't gonna say four weeks. I said, I don't know. I'm new at this. What do you think? And she says, I don't think I should take it. I said, okay, let's go with that. Then what was so amazing was like maybe six, seven weeks later she came. She's like, bishop, I really want to take the sacrament now. I said, okay, then you should. I don't need to be her source of forgiveness or validation that she's been forgiven. That's what I learned as a bishop early on. I didn't abuse that power. I didn't ever participate in the voyeuristic filth that so many have. And they'll act like they didn't. But if they asked those questions, then they participated in it 100%. Because nowhere in the handbook does it tell you to ask those questions. They've been taught to do that standing in high councils, and it's wrong.

John Dehlin [01:57:53] So we, one of our, let's just say someone in our family, very close to us, was asked by our bishop if they masturbated as an 18 year old, where, where does the bishop get. Get the idea or the instruction to do that? Is that in the bishop's manual?

Nick Jones [01:58:16] That is, there is nothing. I've had the same question asked to me, and a friend, Jason Harris, a friend of mine, who's. Who stepped away from the church as well, has said the same thing. The stake presidency member in his temple recommend review asked specifically, do you have a problem with pornography and masturbation? John, I listed off what, 11 of the 15 questions a minute ago.

John Dehlin [01:58:35] Temple recommend questions, Temple recommend.

Nick Jones [01:58:37] None of them.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] Right.

Nick Jones [01:58:38] Ask that.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] Right.

Nick Jones [01:58:40] That is someone asking out of their own, whatever's going on. And in my opinion, that's where I started digging. Well, what are they? What are they hiding?

John Dehlin [01:58:47] But here's the thing. Like, I was a therapist for six years at Utah State University. Tons of USU students coming in, tons of Mormon bishops are asking that question regularly. So I don't think it's adequate to just say each bishop or stake president individually comes up with that. It's too systemic.

Bishop on Sexual Hypertension

Nick Jones [01:59:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:09] So do you have any idea where that comes from, beyond each individual person's own? Because, number one, the church could stop that. Right. It could just add to the handbook of instructions. Never ask anyone this, but they haven't as of 2024. And then on the flip side of that, it's got to be. Is it. Is it training? Verbal training that maybe bishops get in state training meetings?

Nick Jones [01:59:36] I've got to tell you, it doesn't come from training. It doesn't. It comes from

John Dehlin [01:59:42] tradition.

Nick Jones [01:59:43] No, I think it comes from weak men who have a weakness and they don't know how to control it, and they get off on that stuff. I know that sounds weird, but people do. That's a very real thing. Voyeurism is a very real thing. There's something even titillating about it that men can enjoy. I just can tell you. It's nowhere in the handbook. It's not taught, it's not trained. But yet it is everywhere. I think it's talked about. I know high councils ask details in their big, huge councils of affairs and, you know, adulterous things. They. They ask those questions. Because I know people personally who've sat on those as either the victim or, you know, the one being held in council. To me, those questions have nothing to do with the sin. Nothing, Nothing. It only tears the man and the woman down even more and then reprograms them to pledge allegiance to the machine.

John Dehlin [02:00:55] So your theory is. Oh, okay. First of all, I'm guessing that a decent percentage of Mormon bishops and stake presidents masturbate themselves. Is that. Is that. John, can you.

Nick Jones [02:01:09] They're gonna hate me for this, and that's fine. But I want to be real and raw. Absolutely. And I tell her, hey, I did this thing today, just so you know. Yeah.

Amanda Jones [02:01:23] And.

Nick Jones [02:01:23] And there are some that don't, and then there are the ones that are

John Dehlin [02:01:26] like, I would never.

Nick Jones [02:01:26] And they're, you know, that's fine. But if I'm going to completely be raw and honest here and let my vulnerability completely shine, 100%. Now, was it every week or every month? No. Heck, no. It was rare. But nonetheless, it happened.

John Dehlin [02:01:45] And that's got to be weird, as a Mormon bishop or stake president, knowing that you're policing the chastity of all the members of your ward.

Nick Jones [02:01:52] Can I tell you.

John Dehlin [02:01:52] But you're doing the things that you're policing, right?

Nick Jones [02:01:56] This is ironic. The only time in my life I didn't feel guilty for it was when I was a bishop.

John Dehlin [02:02:02] Wow. Explain that.

Nick Jones [02:02:03] I don't know. I can't. I won't. I won't ever know.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:10] Well, I wonder if there's a protective. Like, when you're chosen to lead in that level of position, if there's a sense of, like, you're feeling good, so you have a little more leeway.

John Dehlin [02:02:25] I mean, God called you, right? So, I mean, there's that.

Nick Jones [02:02:29] You know, when young men would come to me with this problem, I would say, it's okay, I'm there too.

John Dehlin [02:02:36] We're all learning, said no other bishop ever.

Nick Jones [02:02:40] We're all learning. We're all trying to figure out who we are and what we're doing here. And I've got to tell you, like I said, Christianity institutionalized guilt as a virtue 100%. And they use that, and it's perpetual. And they rubber band. I had one young man who would come to me, and I could just see it. I say, hey, man, it's okay. Not a big deal. Here's what I need from you. Next week, I need you on the stand blessing the sacrament. No matter what happens this week, that's what's happening next week. Promise me you'll stand. You'll do it without shame, without guilt. And he would, but he'd do it. You could see he was fighting because he'd go home and mom and dad would tell him no. And he's torn. And I, I, I might have been the bad guy for that, the villain, because I was tearing him between two different things. But I've told my sons, my daughters, that you're not allowed to feel guilty anymore. Not just shame, because I think that we've separated those two words, guilt and shame, to mean different things. And I don't believe that they are. I believe they're the same thing. And we need to remove the guilt. If we want to conquer this thing, we need to remove the guilt from it. And people will learn to master themselves on their own without ecclesiastical intervention.

John Dehlin [02:04:13] And what I'm trying to thread the needle here in is acknowledging how exceptional the bishop you were in so many of these areas even before you lost your faith fully. But, but not wanting to give the false impression that this is the normal response that a Mormon bishop would give. Because in my experience, the Mormon bishop would tell them not to take the sacrament, not let them go, get a temple recommend to do baptisms for the dead, potentially keep you from your mission. You know, and everybody's wondering why you're not going on a mission or why your mission's been delayed. And this can be either masturbation or any sort of sexual experimentation all the way up to delaying someone's temple wedding. And then if, if the transgression starts to get into actual intercourse, it can be excommunication from the Church. If not, you know, disfellowship meant, if not excommunication. And that's not even mentioning all the guilt and shame. So I love that you're giving a model for a compassionate, healthy bishop. But like, I think if we were to pull. How many Mormons were told by their bishop that not only was masturbation okay, but that the bishops did it too? I think it would be less than 99.9% of people's experiences, and the shame parade would be the norm.

What a Good Bishop Would Do About Masturbation

Nick Jones [02:05:35] John, as I sit here now, I feel shame and guilt, and I'm okay, I'll take that hit so others can see that they're okay, too. But it doesn't feel good to say that. It's embarrassing. It sucks. But you know what? If it helps people feel less

Margi Dehlin [02:05:58] of

Nick Jones [02:05:58] the shame and guilt that is so perpetual in this thing called Mormonism, than I'll be glad to do it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:11] Beautiful. Okay, so other things you loved about being a bishop, before we get to the things that.

Bishops on the Young Men's Presidency

Nick Jones [02:06:18] The youth. The youth. We had so much fun. We laughed, we cried, we had spiritual experiences, we had fun. I.

John Dehlin [02:06:31] Aren't bishops told that the youth is their most important responsibility?

Nick Jones [02:06:35] Yes, sir. Yes, 100%, and rightly so. But I've got to tell you, I think that that in and of itself is partially why I couldn't go much further. It's. So the bishops are not just bishops now. They're the bishops and they're the young men's presence. And let's just say it, they're the young women's presence as well. They're handling all of that, plus wearing the hat of the other duties of a bishop. And I wish the Church would go back to calling young men's presidents to give them a little bit less

Margi Dehlin [02:07:11] of

Nick Jones [02:07:11] a heavy burden to carry.

John Dehlin [02:07:13] Do you have a sense why the Church made that change? So there used to be a young men's president, and now there's no longer a young men's president.

Nick Jones [02:07:19] Correct.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:19] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:07:20] Any idea why they would add more responsibility to a bishop?

Nick Jones [02:07:24] I know why.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] Why?

Nick Jones [02:07:25] They're losing their. They're losing their flock.

John Dehlin [02:07:28] Okay.

Nick Jones [02:07:29] If. If the youth can connect with their bishop, then the youth can stay centered in the gospel. If they feel like they can trust me and come to me for anything, well, then I'm going to help keep them grounded.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:44] It builds their personal relationship with you.

Nick Jones [02:07:47] That's right. So then it continues to perpetuate them, staying. Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [02:07:55] So are you saying that the Church is determined that if youth have a more Personal connection with their bishop, that they believe that those youth are more likely to remain faithful in the church 100%.

Nick Jones [02:08:08] The reason I was faithful, I had a great bishop. I'd love to say his name, but I won't. He's a great bishop. He took me golfing. He did things with me. He cared about me. I look back at that, and a lot of the reasons I stayed and did the things I did was because of the example. He was absolutely

John Dehlin [02:08:27] okay. But then that adds just so much more. Sure, responsibility, stress, Responsibility pressure. But you're saying that was your favorite part.

Nick Jones [02:08:36] It was. Hands down, it was my favorite part. Because when people would come to me, they always left feeling like they were enough every time. I never left them saying, oh, you did this bad thing and we're gonna have to pay for it. Never. I let them know that they were loved. I actually listened to the Sermon on the Mount. And I'm not here to stroke my own ego or to tell on myself, but this is how things were done. We had a membership council for a woman who had an affair. And when it came down to it, I'd never had one yet at that time, and I didn't have another one since. And the reason being is because of that one experience, all the other issues I had, I kept them private because I knew the damage that it does. So I didn't put them out there to be made known by anyone other than me. I hid things from the stake. I hid things from my bishopric members because I knew that the shame that those people would feel was going to be way worse than the result that would come after a membership council. But the very first one, she's a close friend of ours. The thought of her having to sit in a room with four men and judge her made me completely uneasy. So I called the stake president. I asked if it was okay if she had an advocate of her choosing to sit in and to hold her hand and to be there for her, to support her. And at first he was like, why she's done this thing? And I can't remember exactly how I painted the picture, but I imagine my wife sitting in front of four men all alone. It's not going to happen. So he said it was okay to have an advocate. And I hope this doesn't get him in trouble, because it shouldn't. It should be something that should happen across the board in the church. They need a voice, someone to hold their hand, someone to be there for them. And she so happened to choose my wife Amanda to sit in On a membership council. I was heckled for the decision we made, but most people should have said, she should have been informally disciplined. The terms now have changed. Formal, informal, and then excommunication. We didn't ever participate in any of that. We said, go live your life. You're good enough. You made a mistake. So have I. Let's move on. Where I draw the line is with pedophilia. 100%. The church should not even be touching that, period.

Where Should Pedophiles Be Released from Prison?

John Dehlin [02:11:52] What do you mean?

Nick Jones [02:11:54] Okay, I'll give you an example. There's a man in our stake who is a former Stake Presidency member. For eight years, while he was in the Stake Presidency, he was molesting two of his daughters. One of his daughters for sure. The other started to happen and the oldest daughter intervened somehow. It was reported that this man was a lawyer. He was smart, never served a day in prison.

Amanda Jones [02:12:21] These stories.

Nick Jones [02:12:23] I have seen him in recent months at a stake youth dance on two different occasions. He's not supposed to be around kids. The church gave him an umbrella. A shelter.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:35] Yes.

Nick Jones [02:12:35] Where someone who can rape his daughters can be forgiven, serve no prison time, and be let back into society. The church should not have a say in any of these matters, period. These men should be marked men. You should tattoo their foreheads. And I'll tell you, in Mississippi, the prison there, they mark them in prison. It's a known thing. So they know who they are. They put an X on their face. It's brutal. And I'm not saying we do that, but we should tattoo their foreheads, tell who they are, and we should not ever let them back into the church, period. We say. We say, don't do the temple work for Adolf Hitler. Right. Joseph Fielding Smith, doctrines of salvation. Right. It's all in there. So we don't do temple work for him, but yet we allow pedophiles back in to perpetuate the harm that they've done or to even just lay it out there. Whether they do or don't, it's still a risk. It's still a fear. It's always on everyone's mind. Will they do it again? Are they doing it now? We don't know. We should not be participating in that.

John Dehlin [02:13:44] We've covered this on the podcast. But can you explain, historically, a second counselor in a state presidency, a bishop, a stake president, is caught molesting a teen or a child. How does the Mormon Church traditionally handle that? Can you tell?

John McConkey on the Mormon Church's Sexual Abuse Policy

Nick Jones [02:14:01] A membership council. They handle it with a membership council of 15 men. Now it's just the stake Presidency. They don't even do it with the council anymore. High Council doesn't even have a council anymore, which I don't even have an opinion on that. But. They believe in Mormonism that you can be forgiven for anything except what? Denial of the Holy Ghost, even murder. You can be forgiven of. Well, they claim that these men can be forgiven and changed. They can't be changed, John. It's an illness.

John Dehlin [02:14:39] And what I want you to speak to is what. To what extent can the church hide, you know, predators in their own midst to. To keep other members of the warden stake from knowing there's a predator in their midst? Does the church let everybody know?

Nick Jones [02:15:01] I don't. I don't know that for certain. I can't. I can't say yes or no. All I can tell you is people know about it and they act as if that was forgiven. And it's in the past.

John Dehlin [02:15:15] So in your case, it was public enough to. Where people found out.

Nick Jones [02:15:18] Oh, it's public because he. Anybody can search it. It's.

John Dehlin [02:15:22] But did he get caught? Did he?

Nick Jones [02:15:23] Yeah, he got caught for gratification of lust. He ended up just saying all he did was touch his daughter's vagina.

John Dehlin [02:15:29] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:15:30] Eight years. That's all he did. Give me a break. We know more. There's more that happened. You can talk to the daughter. I bet she'd come on your show. It's disgusting.

John Dehlin [02:15:43] Yeah. And I guess I'm getting to the idea that Mormon bishops, stake presidents call the Curtin McConkey hotline and they're told not to report. I have a police.

Nick Jones [02:15:53] I have a story firsthand.

John Dehlin [02:15:54] Yeah. Do you want to talk about that?

Nick Jones [02:15:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:56] I'm trying to get to the idea of how the church.

Nick Jones [02:15:58] Well, let me give you this then.

John Dehlin [02:15:59] Okay? Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:16:00] Member in my ward, I caught him at a Halloween party with his phone like this and his camera was out and he was videoing young girls. I walked up to the man. Can I say the F word in here? I won't. See, I won't use the F word. I used it, though. I walked up to him, I said, take another picture and I will effing end you right now. Then I met with him and I investigated a little more. I came to find out that he abused his siblings growing up and his father was the bishop at the time he was doing it. Got swept under the rug. Then I reached out to his ex wife and his daughter and I have an email and I'll let you read it. Of the terrible things that he did to her while she was a child. This was a man who lived in my ward, who not only lived in my ward, he lived with his mom and his sister, and his sister had three children. I called. I called the law firm I spoke with. Can I say his name?

John Dehlin [02:17:05] You called Kurt McCon?

Nick Jones [02:17:06] I did, yeah. Can I say that lawyer's name?

John Dehlin [02:17:09] Sure.

Nick Jones [02:17:09] Daniel McConkey. I have his number.

John Dehlin [02:17:11] And why'd you call the hotline?

Nick Jones [02:17:13] Because I had evidence from an email that this man was a pedophile.

John Dehlin [02:17:17] And he was in your.

Nick Jones [02:17:18] He's my ward.

John Dehlin [02:17:19] Yeah. And you weren't warned beforehand that a member of your ward had a history? No. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Nick Jones [02:17:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:27] Okay. Keep going.

Nick Jones [02:17:28] I put all of it together, and I would interview those kids, like, hard, and they would just cry. They would never tell on him. And I don't know whether or not any, even to this day, whether anything happened, but the McConkey Law Firm, Kirk in McConkey Law Firm, Curtin, McConkey Law Firm, told me to stand down, that if I didn't have a specific youth in my ward who claimed that they were being abused by this man, I had no grounds to report anything. I told him I have an email with all this information. He has a history of abuse that we are certain of because I've heard it from the siblings of the family, and I was told to stand down, so I reported it to the police.

John Dehlin [02:18:18] Anyway, when you said. When you say stand down, what did they want you not to do?

Nick Jones [02:18:24] Not to make a stink, not to make noise, not to approach it, not to confront him.

John Dehlin [02:18:29] Just leave it alone.

One survivor's story of the Mormon Church

Nick Jones [02:18:30] Leave it alone.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] And let the predator continue to be in the midst of the word mistake.

Nick Jones [02:18:35] Yeah. Whether he was acting on it or not, I could never prove.

John Dehlin [02:18:37] What about reporting it to the police?

Nick Jones [02:18:39] I did that.

John Dehlin [02:18:40] Did they want you to do that?

Nick Jones [02:18:41] I didn't ask.

John Dehlin [02:18:43] Right. Historically, they don't want you to report it to the police.

Nick Jones [02:18:45] I can't. I can't attest to that in my experience, but, I mean, you have probably more experience with that than I do.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] Yeah. So you went ahead and defied the church's law firm, Kurt McConkey.

Nick Jones [02:18:57] No, they didn't tell me not to. I just reported to the police. They told me not to approach him, but I didn't know what else to do. So I told the stake president, what can we do? He's like, I don't know. So we put an annotation on his name to where he'll be triggered. Any other ward he goes into. We did everything we could to stop it from happening more. But the stake president, as good as he is, he's like, man, I don't know what else we can do. We both had problems with it. It's disgusting. But you're limited. You're protected. Or they're protected, you're not. We should not be giving these people an umbrella. To continue to perpetuate what I consider to be the greatest sin you can perform is to take advantage of innocence. You don't. You can't fix that. And people say the atonement fixes that. No, no, I know the atonement. I'm damaged goods because of what happened to me. And this was the beginning of the end for me, starting to see these things. It made me start questioning everything else. It was that membership council that set me down this path of, boy, this is a lot harder than I thought it was. Maybe I'm not cut out for it. Maybe I'm not tough enough. And it eventually led me to standing at the pulpit and resigning.

John Dehlin [02:20:42] Maybe. Before we jump there, can you. Do you want to talk about the evolution of your faith in terms of the church's truth claims, maybe. Maybe going back a little bit, and how that might have impacted you along the way as well?

The Evolution of the Church

Nick Jones [02:20:57] Yeah, I'd be glad to. Good luck finding them. But the gospel topic essays, they're on the church website. They're in your LDS library. They're extremely poorly done, in my opinion. As much money as the Church has and as many brains they have working for them, I figured they would have come up with a little better explanation to the anachronisms that they are claiming. I would say start there. Isn't it 13 questions or essays? Thirteen?

John Dehlin [02:21:32] There's a bunch.

Nick Jones [02:21:33] I think it's 13. And maybe they've added since I've read them, because that was. That was about two years ago that I went through.

Bishop Eyewitness on the Problems of the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [02:21:38] So prior to being called as bishop, how aware were you of the historical problems with the church and of the truth?

Nick Jones [02:21:44] I read Fawn Brody. I read Bushman. I read all the Givens books, You know, Crucible of Doubt to help bring myself back out of this thing. The Thomas McConkey books, there are so many. You've had them on your show. Patrick Mason Planted. I thought those were all so well done. And I clung to those answers that they gave because I saw these men as complete giants intellectually. But then.

John Dehlin [02:22:14] So before becoming bishop, before bishop, you were already sort of a progressive. A progressive?

Nick Jones [02:22:19] I've been an avid reader, guys, for years. I'VE read all the church book. Not all, but a lot. But all these things. As a bishop, seeing it took me back to, huh, that doesn't add up. And that doesn't add up. And then I finally found out that two plus two does not equal pizza. And that's what Mormonism is trying to say. Two plus two equals pizza. Doesn't even make sense.

5 Biggest Historical Issues

John Dehlin [02:22:47] So let's take five of your biggest issues. Historical truth claims. Because there's going to be a lot of people that this is the first and only Mormon Stories episode they've ever watched. They don't know the names Bushman or Givens or Mason. They have no idea what the CES letter is. Never heard of the Gospel topics essay. So pick the five biggest historical or truth claims issues that you started to confront as a Mormon.

Nick Jones [02:23:10] My biggest was polygamy. I've always had a problem with polygamy. I love my wife. I don't want to share her. And number one, number one, she doesn't want to share me. And for her sake, I always had a major, major issue with polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:23:25] And for those who are not Mormon, explain what that has to do with Mormonism.

Nick Jones [02:23:31] Well, those who are not Mormon, I recommend you go to the Doctrine Covenants and read section 132. That's what you should do.

John Dehlin [02:23:38] And it says what?

Nick Jones [02:23:41] That in the next life, Mormon men who are worthy will be given multiple wives and their duty in heaven is to have posterity for God through the eternities

John Dehlin [02:23:58] with, like a celestial harem, basically. Sure, yeah.

Nick Jones [02:24:02] Yeah, we believe that garbage.

John Dehlin [02:24:05] And that's still on the books. Mormon scripture, 100%. And then did you study Joseph Smith's practice of that?

Nick Jones [02:24:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:24:12] And do you want to. Can you summarize what you.

Nick Jones [02:24:14] I battled it. I went back and forth. You know, I listened to Rob Fotheringham. I went into all these recent things that have come out about Joseph not practicing polygamy, that that was a Brigham thing that started Brigham Young. And I actually have learned that that narrative came from Emma when she left the church. There's too much out there. Joseph practiced polygamy without question. He married young girls, and people say he had no children. I don't believe that that's the case. I know that there are grounds to, you know, argument there, but there's also plenty of ways of having some form of contraceptive in the 1800s. People act as if it didn't exist. I'm sorry, but it did. But Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Yes. And this is hard for Me, because recently I've had to contend with Joseph in my deconstruction. And I revered him as if he was God. Truly, that no man had ever lived the life Joseph Smith lived except Jesus. Yeah. Praise to the man.

John Dehlin [02:25:26] Sure.

Nick Jones [02:25:29] So polygamy was a huge hang up. And then it was historicity of. Of the origin of the Book of Mormon doesn't add up.

John Dehlin [02:25:41] How so?

Nick Jones [02:25:42] No, they're Asians. They come from Asian descent.

John Dehlin [02:25:45] Who?

Nick Jones [02:25:45] The Native American Indians.

John Dehlin [02:25:47] And the Book of Mormon DNA proves it.

Nick Jones [02:25:48] Book of Mormon claims that they came from Jerusalem and that they were white. And as they became more wicked, their skin darkened. So Mormonism teaches racism as well. And I have black friends that I love and I had biases even while I was friends with them because of my Mormon upbringing. And it doesn't. Mormonism is subtle when it comes to racism. They don't, they don't out it, they actually fight against it, but they're subtly, actually pushing that underneath all of that in their scriptures. So those were triggers. The first vision is what really I would say what broke my shelf.

Joseph Smith's First Vision

John Dehlin [02:26:32] Talk us through that.

Nick Jones [02:26:33] Joseph Smith, what were you taught?

John Dehlin [02:26:36] And then what'd you learn?

Nick Jones [02:26:37] In 1820, a young farm boy had a question. Which church was true? Read James 1:5. Right? We all did this on the mission that says, if any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God. That abradeth not, or that abrath not

John Dehlin [02:26:52] shall be given him who abrath not. And shall give it to all men liberally.

Nick Jones [02:26:55] Yeah, Give it to all men liberally and abrath not, and it shall be given him.

John Dehlin [02:26:57] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:27:00] So we believe that Joseph went into a grove of trees, prayed, and had a vision where he saw God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. Speak to him, tell him that none of the churches were true and that he needed to form the only true church on the earth. The problem with that is, is it didn't happen in 1820. It couldn't have. Doesn't add up with the story of what he was telling. It had to have been at least 1823, at least if it even happened then. But the first we ever hear of it is 1832, after the church has been organized. And tell me if I'm wrong on these dates, but I'm pretty sure I'm

John Dehlin [02:27:41] sounding good to me.

Nick Jones [02:27:42] Yeah, yeah, 1832. And I think personally, people were on to Joseph. They're figuring out that he was somewhat of a scam artist. And he's like, no, no, no, you guys gotta understand, I saw God. He spoke to me. And in the 1832 account, he said he saw one personage, the Lord.

John Dehlin [02:28:06] The Lord, yeah.

Nick Jones [02:28:07] It was a trinitarian view of the Godhead.

John Dehlin [02:28:10] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:28:11] And it isn't until 1838, which is quite convenient because it was 15 days after Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated and kicked out of the church and left, that

John Dehlin [02:28:22] Joseph tells for rightly accusing Joseph Smith an affair.

Nick Jones [02:28:27] Correct?

John Dehlin [02:28:27] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:28:28] Yeah. So once Oliver's out of the picture, the three witnesses are out. So now he can create his own narrative that fits what his father believed in, a godhead that Mormonism believes in two gods. God the Father, God the Son, and then God the Holy ghost, as Bruce McConi would say, doesn't add up.

John Dehlin [02:28:53] So he changes the story in the 1838 version.

Nick Jones [02:28:57] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:28:58] To go from the Lord to what?

Nick Jones [02:29:00] To the Mormon godhead of two personages instead of one.

John Dehlin [02:29:05] That's a pretty big change.

Nick Jones [02:29:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:08] It basically doubles the deity.

Nick Jones [02:29:09] It doubles the deity. Doesn't add up.

John Dehlin [02:29:12] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:29:13] With everything else that is tied to him, it just couldn't make sense any longer to me, and I couldn't participate in it. Not. Not and sit as a bishop and justifiably do what a bishop has to do to help other people. So I had to step down.

Ex-Bishop on His Reasons for Stepping Down

John Dehlin [02:29:38] Okay, so these doubts you're having about Mormon theology, Mormon scripture, how many months or years before you stepping down were you starting? Because the idea of a bishop losing his faith is kind of mind blowing. You, a Mormon would think, you know, putting my Mormon brain on, like, the bishop is. Talks to God, he's faithful, represents God to the ward. He's going to be the most righteous and spiritual man. He's going to be the least likely person in the ward to be having a faith crisis and losing his faith. But that's obviously not true. We've. So. So.

Nick Jones [02:30:17] But you have to understand, you know, a decade ago, I read those other books, and then I read the other books that contend with those other books, the apologetics and their reasons for continuing the faith. And that worked for me. And then as a bishop, you started to see these things happen firsthand that just were wrong. And when you see that, you're like, what else is wrong with this thing? So you go back to that thing. And that's what I did probably seven months ago.

Amanda Jones [02:30:47] Got it.

Nick Jones [02:30:48] And then it was anxiety every day, going to church, I was angry. And the ward members know ward council. Like, I'd get mad, you know, I'd get angry. I say things about the current leadership of the church because I knew that they know they know this narrative and they continue to let people believe differently. But they know. They know.

John Dehlin [02:31:13] You're saying they know the problems with the church's history and its truth claims.

Nick Jones [02:31:17] Joseph Fielding Smith tore out the 1832 account of the first vision. He tore it out. Wasn't it the Tanners who found it and recognized that there were pages torn out so that the 1838 edition would be the only edition? How is that? Okay?

John Dehlin [02:31:35] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:31:37] And you think the current leadership has no clue? No. I'm sorry, but no, I'm not. I'm dumb, but I'm not that dumb.

John Dehlin [02:31:49] Yeah. And so as you are losing your faith as a bishop, there's the irony there that everybody's faithful. So many people's faith in the Word is leaning on your faith. And you're representing the church as a faithful member who's upholding the truthfulness of the church. And my understanding is that's a pressure cooker that eats away at your soul, knowing that in some ways you might feel like you're falsely representing how you really feel and propping up a church that you're starting to feel is doing a lot of harm. Can you talk about that dilemma?

Janice on the Despondent Diocese

Nick Jones [02:32:27] Well, I think. I think what we're talking about is enmeshment. Right. People's testimonies of the truth is partially in me as a bishop. Like, part of the reason they're coming is because they've got a really good bishop who stands up and he does these things that make me really feel good about who I am. And I go home feeling like I was filled that day. And guys, I was good at that. I was. But that's why people are so angry at me right now. Because of the enmeshment of what? Part of me that was then, part of them is now no longer.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:01] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:33:01] And they have no idea how to contend with that. And I'm going to just tell you now, neither do I. I'm hurting just as much. It's just as painful for me. But that's really the root of it. We're enmeshed together in this thing. We're clinging to each other because really, the narrative just doesn't add up. So the people do so cling to the people. And. And that's the thing I'm doing right now. I'm clinging to still, you know, And I know there's this Exmoor group and this Mormon group and they're fighting. I wish they'd freaking stop because they're only harming themselves. The answer is love. And I Don't even know if it's love. I think it's finding beauty in the individual, no matter what they choose to do. Even those people who are pedophiles, there's a place for love for them somewhere. I can't find it personally, but in time, maybe that's what heals them. I don't know the perfect order. But I know that we have to quit giving them a platform to repeat what they're doing and be called good men. You know, Alexander Solzhenitsyn said, there's no such thing as good or bad men. There's only cowards and non cowards, and cowards are capable of doing the vilest of things. I believe those men are cowards and they need to learn to be men or women.

John Dehlin [02:34:35] So if you can address what it's like to stop believing but still be serving as a bishop and what that does to your mental health, it's not good.

Nick Jones [02:34:48] Look at me. I've had suicidal thoughts.

John Dehlin [02:34:57] As a bishop? As a bishop, sure.

Nick Jones [02:35:00] Absolutely. And after, even more so, I tell my wife and kids about it. Why? Because if I keep that, it just builds up. And it's not because I want to end my life. It's because I want to turn the power off. Just for a minute, just turn it off. You know, I told one of my good friends, I said, man, the day I resigned was the first night I went to bed and I put my phone on silent.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:29] Wow.

Nick Jones [02:35:30] Every bishop goes to bed every night and they check their phone and make sure it's not on silent because they don't know who's going to call or when they're going to have to go put on their suit and go to somebody's house at 1 in the morning.

John Dehlin [02:35:42] Did you do that?

Nick Jones [02:35:45] Sure, I did. Absolutely. I can remember going like four days without seeing my kids because it was one thing after another after another. Sure, I did. And I did it because I loved the people, the same people that hate me right now.

Bishop Eyewitness: Helping Ward Members with Marriage Issues

John Dehlin [02:36:06] What types of things were you helping

Nick Jones [02:36:07] ward members with marital issues? Mostly people fight. It's unbelievable, the arguments you have in a bishop's office. You just sit there and watch them yell at each other. And they want you to help them. I don't know how to help that. I'll listen. And usually that's typically what helps, just knowing that they can work it out.

John Dehlin [02:36:36] So domestic disputes is a big part of being a bishop?

Nick Jones [02:36:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:36:39] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:41] And a lot of the late night, a lot of fighting kind of at

Nick Jones [02:36:44] night, and all of a sudden some construction worker Is the answer. Have him come over in his suit and give a blessing. Can I tell you about blessings real quick?

John Dehlin [02:36:56] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:36:56] I had a sick daughter a few weeks ago. I went upstairs and I gave her a blessing. I didn't use priesthood power. I just blessed her with love. Her fever broke. There's power in us, period. They are trying to take it from you and tell you that they gave it to you, and they're trying to give it a name. It's in all of us. And you don't need a title, and you don't need to have somebody tell you that you can and cannot do that. And we're getting off into the weeds, aren't we?

John Dehlin [02:37:44] No, no, no. This is the meat. Thank you. Okay. So, Amanda, as Nick is serving and becoming more and more troubled by the worthiness stuff, the disciplinary stuff, and then as he's starting to have his own doubts and questions about the truthfulness of the Church, did you know any of this? Did he share it with you? Could you see that something was wrong? He would tell us how this has been for you. What's that?

A Bishop's Attempt to Step Down

Amanda Jones [02:38:16] He would share what he could. But of course, he couldn't share, like, details or anything. And, yes, I started seeing, like, a major change, just because, in my opinion, it's not something that anybody should be able to take on. Like, I told him, I'm like, you're sitting across the desk from these people, and they're literally, like, pouring their negative energy into your body, and you're like this sponge that's just soaking it up, and sooner or later, like, you're gonna burst. That's what I told him. I was like, if anything, the Church should have, like, a counselor specifically for that. Absolutely. Where the bishops can go and just pour their hearts out. Because it's what broke both of us, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:38:57] Absolutely.

Amanda Jones [02:38:58] It's so much, and it's just so heavy. And you could see it as time went on, definitely more and more. And then as we got closer to just him being done, it was just. It was so hard. Just such an emotional roller coaster and going back and forth of feeling like, this is what we need to do. Or actually, the night before, what were

John Dehlin [02:39:22] the choices in terms of what you thought you might need to do, but then why that was.

Amanda Jones [02:39:28] We just kept going back and forth. Do we just tough it out? Do we just tough it out for the next three and a half years and then, you know, then be done? Because of almost trying to do good on the inside? Like, how much good can we maybe do in this Position on the inside, very common. But it just was too much the night before.

John Dehlin [02:39:47] If it's okay. There's also this idea that if you. Everyone expects a Mormon bishop to serve five years. So if, like he said about his predecessor, if he asks to be released at two years or three years, what. What happens in the ward?

Amanda Jones [02:40:03] Everybody just assumes that something went wrong.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] Like what. What would. What would come into people's minds?

Amanda Jones [02:40:08] Affair or sin of some sort.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:10] We're back at the temple scenario.

Amanda Jones [02:40:12] Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:13] Same list.

Amanda Jones [02:40:14] Some kind of. Which is why he wanted to address the ward the way he did. Because he wanted the people that we literally love to know. Like, it's not something that we did on our part wrong. It's just not okay. It's not okay to be put through this. And even the night before he stepped down, he was. He was so anxious for so many weeks. But he turned to me and he was like, we just won't do it. I'll just tough it out. It's fine. We'll be okay. And I was like, no, like, you're already starting to see bits of peace and like, bits of happiness in him I had not seen before. I'm like, there's no way. No, you're not going to do that to yourself or to our family, really. You know,

John Dehlin [02:40:59] Go ahead, Martin.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:00] I was hoping. I'm sorry, I'm going to make you go backwards. I was hoping to ask this before moving in, but your piece of the puzzle with if. If you had your own kind of faith journey as he's having his, and if there were points of connecting or like, do you know what I mean? Like your own personal journey.

Nick on His Own Faith

Amanda Jones [02:41:21] I feel like for me, what I clung to was just like the modern day church and the modern day, like the temple and eternal families. My testimony was a lot more just basic and simple. And it started falling apart in 2020 with just the. The way they addressed Covid and a lot of those things. So I just started being very skeptical since then and just feeling like I could voice more of my opinion of how I felt. Trying to train thoughts. But yeah, just little things aligned. Like, for me, it was not church history the way it's Nick's. I just wasn't one to ever even dive into it. He even told me that recently. He's like, but you need to know all this. I'm like, no, I don't. I didn't have a firm testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith to start with. Why do I need it now? Especially in the phase that I'm Going through right now. But then it's like when your eyes are open to something, you can just see everything. Like, I started seeing how just everything was wrong. Well, okay, so my belief in eternal families. Do I really believe that God is going to separate us as a family in heaven? No, no, they're my family and my children. And if so, then that's not a God that I want to believe in anyway. Yeah, I kind of mentioned, like, you know, the leadership of the church. I just. I don't believe that anymore. I don't believe that one person speaks for God. I believe that we all can reach God and all be prompted and fill the spirit of him within ourselves. Doesn't come from a man of all people. A man. Like, it just. It blows my mind that I believed all these things and now they're just laid out in front of me like black and white.

John Dehlin [02:43:11] Keep going. I want to hear more. This is great.

Amanda Jones [02:43:14] I'm trying to think of any other ones.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:16] It's like concept of God, really. You having some. And then I'm hearing authority. Right. No longer believing one man can speak for authority.

John Dehlin [02:43:28] How about one true church?

Amanda Jones [02:43:30] No.

John Dehlin [02:43:31] What's wrong with that?

Amanda Jones [02:43:34] For me now, where I'm at now, I kind of just don't believe in any organized religion. I don't believe in anybody holding power to speak for God for a group of people. Which goes back to me just feeling like I want to be connected in a different way. I want to be connected to my life and my family and my time in nature.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:57] Yeah, yeah.

Nick Jones [02:43:59] Can I address this real quick, this particular thing? Because I might make people mad, but Theo Vaughn and Jordan Peterson did this great interview on Theo Vaughn's show where they talk about the children of Israel being captive slaves and then being freed. But the reason they wandered in a desert that only takes three days to cross for 40 years was because they were given every viable option, rather than the slavery from whence they came. And some people say, well, it'd be better to be a slave than to have every option. And the reality is, no, it's not. And you don't have to be lost and wander for 40 years. There's answers for these things, but you have to step away, step out of the painting to see it for what it is first. And what you'll find is you're waiting in three feet of water and you thought you had drowned in three feet. And all you really have to do is put your feet down. And Friedrich Nietzsche said it. He said, those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. We haven't lost our minds. We're just dancing because we're enjoying the music.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:19] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:45:20] And we're not sinning. We're not partying. We're not doing things that are bad,

Amanda Jones [02:45:26] which is one thing I've loved. Like, a bunch of my friends who are not members have been reaching out to me since seeing all this. And a lot of them have said, like, that's the one crazy thing that we thought of you. Like, how could you believe all of these things? And I'm like, well, when you're born and raised in it, and that's literally all you learn from the minute you're born, what else do you believe until you have the knowledge to step away and see it for what it is? But that's been. It's actually helped me a ton because I'm, you know, you go through the phases of thinking I'm crazy. No, I'm not crazy. It's like, oh, okay. Other people see this. I wish you had told me that a long time ago.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:02] Right, right. It's kind of in your own time.

Amanda Jones [02:46:04] Yeah, it is.

Bishop Who Masturbated While Talking About His Faith

Margi Dehlin [02:46:06] So did you two have each other amidst your train? Like, did you. I'm trying to kind of figure out if you did it together or if you. It was separate, different timing or.

Amanda Jones [02:46:16] Yes and no.

John Dehlin [02:46:17] What do you mean by no?

Amanda Jones [02:46:18] Well, Nick had a lot of questions and I guess it went back to like church history stuff that I don't really did not have as strong of a testimony in any way. I was like, no, I'm not there yet. I'm like, I'm not there yet.

John Dehlin [02:46:30] So he would try and talk to you about his problems with the church history.

Amanda Jones [02:46:33] And some would line up, but some I'm like, oh, I just. I don't even know. I'll have to, you know, have to figure that out on my own.

John Dehlin [02:46:40] But you didn't want to hear it necessarily.

Amanda Jones [02:46:42] Sometimes.

Nick Jones [02:46:43] Okay, it was bad.

Amanda Jones [02:46:44] Like it's been non stop for.

Nick Jones [02:46:45] It's non stop for me.

Amanda Jones [02:46:47] Eight or nine months.

Nick Jones [02:46:48] I'm a very like, go, go, go. I'm up 4:30 most mornings going, I can't turn it off.

Amanda Jones [02:46:53] His brain does not turn off.

John Dehlin [02:46:55] So you're saying it's been a hot flame for eight or nine months for you at least.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:59] Yeah. So have you been in a bit of a rabbit hole? Deconstruction? Just sort of. Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:47:05] Every day, all day.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:06] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [02:47:06] And for me, I'll even tell him, I'm like, put it away because I'M good at that. I'm like, put it away and do something else. Like, I'll put it away. I'll go outside. I'll connect with music, I'll connect with the kids. Kids. But it's like, no, I got to just tunnel through.

Nick Jones [02:47:18] Yeah. I want to rip the band aid

Margi Dehlin [02:47:19] off kind of person.

John Dehlin [02:47:20] Well, I'm just as. As someone who spent 45 years as a Mormon. And I'm thinking about how I look at the bishop every Sunday when I show up. He's presiding, he's getting up, he's calling people, sustaining people, he's leading the ward. I can't imagine what it would be like for that bishop to be in a full blown faith crisis for eight or nine months in the dark night of the soul. And yet every Sunday he's showing up as if everything's great.

Amanda Jones [02:47:53] So hard sometimes. You could see that it definitely was not great. Like he would be.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:57] Sounds like he was angry in some of the meetings. And you're doing all that and still holding all the ward members. Pain.

Amanda Jones [02:48:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:06] As your pain is increasing.

Amanda Jones [02:48:09] Gosh, I didn't even think about that, Nick.

John Dehlin [02:48:11] It seems like you're feeling something.

Nick Jones [02:48:13] No, it's just hard to reflect on. I've always tried to do the right thing. I just don't know why. The right thing's always the hard thing. That's all. It's always so hard. I'm not a perfect man by any means. Right. Bishop who masturbates, he's definitely not perfect. But that's the reality of it. I'm okay with that. I'm at peace with that.

Bishop Eyewitness on the difficulty of the past nine months

John Dehlin [02:48:41] But were you reflecting on the difficulty of the past nine months?

Nick Jones [02:48:44] It was. What's the phrase? They say I couldn't sacrifice my peace for their presence anymore.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:55] You had to save yourself.

Nick Jones [02:48:59] It was week after week. I was dying. I was. I was dying to show up because I always delivered. And now I have to deliver without using prophets, names or even scriptures.

John Dehlin [02:49:16] So you started self editing it to the congregation?

Nick Jones [02:49:19] I started using stories that don't have anything to do with Christianity to touch people's hearts because it worked for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:29] So how did your language change as bishop over those nine months?

Nick Jones [02:49:32] I don't even know. Except I. I stopped testifying of anything other than Christ and. And given. When I was called Bishop, people said, what's the theme, Bishop? What's the theme? Or they would say, what. What is the subject of the talk that I'm supposed to give every month?

Margi Dehlin [02:49:48] Right.

Nick Jones [02:49:48] I stood up maybe what, my second week And I said, brothers and sisters, don't ask me that question ever again. The answer is always Christ, period. We preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, right? We do all of these things so that our children will know who they can turn to for a remission of their sins. And it's not a bishop or a stake president. It's Christ. That's how I started. And the members followed. Man, they loved it.

Amanda Jones [02:50:18] It changed the whole.

Nick Jones [02:50:19] It changed the whole dynamic of the Word.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:20] I can imagine.

Nick Jones [02:50:22] So every Sunday, people knew there wasn't a subject except him who is mighty to save. Now, my feelings on that are different now, but I don't want to get into that. It's not a thing I want to talk about.

How To Ask to Be Released Early in the Church

John Dehlin [02:50:36] So you were dying inside, and while you were out on a break, we were talking about the bind that Mormon bishops are put in. So, number one, they're going to have people coming to them. Well, like you said, they're going to see problems of how the sausage gets made. So that could trigger a faith crisis for Mormon bishop. And then they're going to have people come to them with. With doubts and questions that could. Could cause a faith crisis. And then just people are leaving the church in droves these days anyway. So just by being a Mormon, there's a decent chance you're going to have a faith crisis in 2024. But then we juxtapose that with the expectation that a bishop's always going to serve for five years. Right? So we talked about whether, if you ask to be released early, that just sends the whole war to signal that you either masturbated or committed adultery or something like that. But then it's worse because you also probably don't want to destroy the faith of all the members. And if you ask to step down and it's for faith reasons, then everybody's gonna like. It's potentially gonna put them all in a faith crisis spin. And even if you're mad at the church, I'm guessing y' all didn't want to do that to all the ward members, but you're in a catch 22 of, like, you're wanting to die, but if you, if you step down, it's gonna cause all these problems for you individually, for your family, and then for the ward. It's really. It's really a catch 22. That. That. That's horrific.

Nick Jones [02:52:03] So there were two things that occurred in the last maybe six weeks of my service. One, a young woman came to me to tell me about masturbation, And I I stopped her before she even finished. I said, you don't get to come to me ever again to tell me about any of this. You're perfectly fine. You're trying to figure out who the flip you are. You didn't do anything wrong. And I kept worrying someone else was going to call the executive secretary and set up an appointment to tell me that kind of stuff again. And I couldn't do it again. I couldn't do it. I'm a tough guy. Y' all like, yeah, but my heart. Take that number one, two. A man came 78 years old and just battled prostate cancer 30 years. 30 plus years prior, he had an affair. He had been rebaptized maybe a decade or more ago, but because he wouldn't write a letter to his ex wife and apologize, they wouldn't restore his blessing.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:22] Hmm.

Nick Jones [02:53:24] And this man thought he was going to die and not be good enough to make it to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom in Mormonism is heaven. They were holding this over this man's head and he wept. 78 years old, wept with me the pain that he's been through. Well, I said, well, that's going to end today. I'm calling the stake president and we are going to have your blessings restored. I don't care about a letter. I don't care what previous people have said. This is happening. Stake president's on board. Here's the problem. There's a paperwork I have to fill out. And in that paperwork, it asks detailed questions of what they did 30 plus years ago.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:04] Wow.

Nick Jones [02:54:05] And I. I called the stake president, said, I refuse. I text him. I said, I sent a screenshot. And I said, I refuse to participate in this. No man should have to rehash those things to somebody who doesn't even know about it. I said, so this is my window out. I told him, I said, this is me stepping down. You call a new bishop.

John Dehlin [02:54:30] I'm stepping down because he wouldn't back down on that.

Nick Jones [02:54:34] He can't. Church won't let that happen. He would, too. I believe he would. I believe he doesn't agree with it. He's a moral man. He's a good man.

John Smith on His Resignation as a Bishop

Margi Dehlin [02:54:43] So did you feel kind of like your back was pushed up against the wall, your personal integrity?

Nick Jones [02:54:48] I was glad, though, because it gave me a way out. Like, ooh, I can use this as my reason to not serve anymore as a bishop, because I won't rehash that. And it wasn't just him. There was another gentleman also had a similar situation that was not as long ago who had to do the same thing. And he was going to have to sit down in front of me and hash it all out so he could have his blessings restored so he could go to the temple. And I wasn't going to participate in it, and I told them no. So call a new bishop. Well, that takes time. And I just didn't have time. I couldn't do it any longer.

John Dehlin [02:55:33] And it's fair to say that that experience with the sexual predator and Kurt McConkey and finding that he was in your midst and being told to stand down by the Churchill law firm, wasn't that also part of it?

Nick Jones [02:55:45] Absolutely. All of it.

John Dehlin [02:55:46] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:55:47] When people say, what broke your shelf? It can't be one thing. I'm sorry. It's everything. That's why it's a shelf. It holds a lot until it can't hold it any longer. Yeah, it's all of that. It's all of that.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:59] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:55:59] It's. It's how they're not being honest. And. And all you have to do is step outside just for a minute. Adam. God theory, Wrong. Racism, we were wrong. Polygamy, we were wrong. DNA in the Book of Mormon, we were wrong. Why do we continue to think that we have to be right about everything? We have to want to know the answer more than we want to be right. And in Mormonism, we'd rather be right than know the answer.

John Dehlin [02:56:33] Yeah. So just reached ahead and then you. And then your wife was sorry. Amanda was telling us that you were wanting to just white knuckle it for another two and a half years.

Nick Jones [02:56:46] That was a plan, John.

John Dehlin [02:56:48] But then she wasn't loving that idea. So do you guys want to tell us how you together made the decision?

Nick Jones [02:56:53] I would come home and cry. See, that's the thing. The members who are judging me now, they don't know. Yeah, I'd come home and cry to her, my kids.

Amanda Jones [02:57:05] Yeah, there's no way. Two and a half more years, I

Nick Jones [02:57:08] was miserable, and then I'd take it out on them. And I'm not an abusive, controlling man at all. I just. I would be irritable and I had to keep it to myself. And I said that in my, you know, as I resigned, like, I had to keep it a secret. So, yeah, I keep it a secret. And my wife and my kids pay for my secret. And yet the family is all that matters. So when they called the new bishop, what's interesting is they asked me who I thought should be the next bishop. An apostate.

John Dehlin [02:57:51] Did your Stake president, friend, try and help you, try and resolve your concerns, try and intervene, try and help you get to a better place. And by the way.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:03] Yes?

John Dehlin [02:58:03] I don't want you to violate any confidences.

Nick Jones [02:58:05] No, I wouldn't. I would never do that to him. He's a brother to me. He's been nothing but gracious and kind, and anyone who knows him can vouch for that. He's a good man. And I don't like to use that word because that gets used too loosely in Mormonism. Oh, he's a good man. When they don't even know anything about them. People call me a good man. They don't know anything about me, but I know him. He's about as good as they come. He wants to do good, and he tried to help, but I don't think you can help this thing. Once you get to a certain point, I don't think there's help. You're out. You're done. He knew that I was going to step down. I told him the Monday before. I said, can we hurry up? We need to get a new bishop called. We need to process this quicker because I'm really struggling. I don't know how many more weeks I've got. He's like, I'm on it. He's trying. I said, and if it's okay with you, I'd like to just let the ward members know that I am stepping down in the next few weeks because I didn't want them to just think that I just gave up on them. I thought in that moment that it was the right thing to do. I had no idea it was going to go viral. I had no idea any of this was going to happen.

Amanda Jones [02:59:25] Yeah.

In his talk on Mormon stories, Richard Burton says

John Dehlin [02:59:26] Is it also fair you didn't want people to think that you had committed some sin? I mean, is that fair?

Nick Jones [02:59:31] Well, I said that. I said that in. In the talk. This isn't because of some sin. And now people, because of what I've said today, they're going to say, oh, yes, it was fine. That's fine. That's perfectly fine. Those are the ones that want to hide. That's fine. I'm not even going to go there with them. It just was. I felt like I owed it to them. That was simple as that. That's as far as my mind and my thought process went. I did not premeditate sitting down with John and Margi Delin on Mormon stories. I've. I've admired you for what you've done. I've hated you as well.

John Dehlin [03:00:11] What I have how dare you?

Nick Jones [03:00:13] Yeah, I was like, look at that son of a gun. He's up there ruining people's lives. But if I could just maybe talk about John for a minute. He may not want this, but I called John, or John called me. No, you called me. You reach out to me on Reddit, said, hey, I'd love to visit with you. And I was in a really bad place. I couldn't even form a full sentence practically with him. And he said, you don't have to do anything. You don't owe me anything. You do what you feel is best for you. He had my best interest in my wife and my family's best interest at heart. He didn't try to put me on the show. No, this was me wanting to do it. And here's why. We want to do it. Because of the thousands and thousands of messages I've gotten who say, you're my hero.

John Stamatis on the Scouting Abuse

Margi Dehlin [03:01:11] Me,

Nick Jones [03:01:13] I didn't do anything. I just did what I knew was right for me and the people that I loved. But it wasn't just, you're my hero. It was my Sunday school teacher as a child would rape me after church, and then he would give me a priesthood blessing to tell me it would all go away. And then when I confronted the bishop with it, the bishop said, what did you do to cause that man to do that to you? And it's not one or two or three of those stories, John. I'd have to guess it's probably 50 or 60 out of thousands, which isn't a lot in thousands. But every one of them need validation. They need to have a voice. And if I can be that for them, you better believe it. Absolutely. In fact, I thought about on my TikTok. Can I talk about this for a second? I'd like for people who have stories like this, you can send them to me and I'll be your voice. I'd love to form a non profit organization to take care of the tens of thousands of boys who are abused by the scouting program in the church. Because we know the church won't fork out a penny and we know the scouting program's filing bankruptcy. I've got a lawsuit with them. I won't ever see a dime and I don't care about the money. But there are some people who are suffering. Why can't we get someone like Elon Musk or Joe Rogan who have a voice to say, hey, let's do this thing. Let's create an organization to heal the people who've been damaged by the Umbrella of protection religion has given them. I don't know enough about that, y'. All. I can tell you everything about wood floor, everything you ever want to know and how to mill it. I know all of that, but I don't know anything else. But if we could do something like that, I feel like I could hang my hat on a life like that. To help people, to be their voice.

What Does It Feel Like Being Both of You Right Now?

Margi Dehlin [03:03:43] Can I ask you a question about kind of, and this may be hard to answer, but, like, what does it feel like being both of you right now in. In this moment in time with kind of like, what are you holding? What does it feel like so people can kind of connect with you where you are today?

Amanda Jones [03:04:03] Oh, it's felt like gut wrenching pain that I've never felt before. I'll go from doing something to just like, literally in the fetal position, crying on the floor. And my kids come around me trying to, you know, help my littlest daughter. One time she came, put her head, her hand behind my head and forehead to forehead, and she's like, it's okay, Mom.

John Dehlin [03:04:28] I've got you.

Amanda Jones [03:04:32] It sucks. I feel bad because of the way I looked at people who left before this. Because you don't know this pain until you go through this pain. You know, as a member of the church, you brush it off as, oh, they left. Maybe they left. I don't nick this. I had a realization one morning, and I was like, we're all so taught to judge. Like, we say that we don't judge, but we're so taught to judge because of all the things that we're taught to fear. Drinking, tattoos, whatever it may be. Then we go out into the world and we see these people who have left the church that have these things, and we instantly judge them. And it puts fear in our mind thinking, oh, okay, we'll stay away from that so that we don't leave either. And it's like, wow, I can't believe that I see that now. But it's just. It's something that you literally can't understand unless you feel the pain that you're in. Yeah. So it sucks. There's been moments I just. I just have to put my phone away and try to not think about it, you know, do something else, go hang with the kids or.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:45] But

Nick Jones [03:05:48] it's so freeing to be where we are.

Amanda Jones [03:05:55] The flip side

Nick Jones [03:05:59] feels like the walls are completely gone. I'll give you an example. My wife, I want her so bad to come sit on my lap because she always sits on my lap. But the other Night. Our. Our thing right now is we. We. We built a house together, her and I, like, from the ground up. I built it with my own two hands. Like, our date night was every night at the house till one in the morning on 30 acres. So we have 30 acres. We go in the backyard, we build a fire, and our kids come out and we're just present with them. Now we sing, we cry. But she sat on my lap and I put my hand up her back and it was the first time I'd ever done it and felt her skin.

Amanda Jones [03:06:42] Best thing ever, ever.

Nick Jones [03:06:44] And I was like, oh, my gosh. They even took that from me.

Amanda Jones [03:06:48] It's like they want to take that.

Nick Jones [03:06:49] It's like your garments are like. My buddy Jordan, I'm going to give him a shout out. He called them sensory deprivation clothing.

Amanda Jones [03:07:01] So true. I was like, oh. I'm like, I've never felt prettier in my life than I do now because I don't have to form my clothing around my garments.

Nick Jones [03:07:11] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [03:07:11] And like, you know, even silly things like going to bed in your garments. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's sexy.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:16] That's right. That's right.

Amanda Jones [03:07:17] It's made our relationship way better, just in all aspects. Honesty, all of it.

Nick Jones [03:07:23] We're having moments of healing.

Amanda Jones [03:07:24] Years, really, in the coming. It's not like it's seeing that last part again. It's been. It's been years in the formation of our relationship being better, but now it's just like it's even a hundred times more better than.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:36] Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Jones [03:07:36] And it was becoming.

Nick Jones [03:07:38] I'll give you an example of something in healing that we've had recently. We sat on the front porch with Luke, my oldest, and Charlie, our second, and we were just having this heart to heart. I never had these with my kids until recently. But I told him, luke, I don't want to tell you what to do, but I don't want you to go on a mission. If I had to choose, I would rather you didn't. And he just started to cry. Like it was like this weight. Like, you see it as a bishop when you see people leave feeling like, oh, finally I can get rid of that thing. Like, his shoulders just dropped and he was just like, oh. And he's. He's five months away from going.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:24] Wow.

Nick Jones [03:08:26] And he was terrified of it,

Margi Dehlin [03:08:30] but

Nick Jones [03:08:30] he was just going to do it because he knew that's what was going to make mom and dad happy.

Amanda Jones [03:08:36] He was terrified of having to grow up so fast.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:38] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:08:39] I told him he's Got as long as he needs.

Amanda Jones [03:08:41] We put that in him, you know.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:42] Right, yeah.

Nick Jones [03:08:45] So little by little, we're seeing little things happen that are healing our home, our kids, ourselves.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:52] Yes.

Nick Jones [03:08:53] But I have heard that it's, what, a year for every decade you're in the church. Deconstruction, on average. So I have four years. Amanda has four years of this. And that's okay. We're up to the task and partially because we know people who've been at it for 4, 5, 6, 7, 10 years.

John Dehlin [03:09:11] 30.

Nick Jones [03:09:11] 30 years.

4,000 people in the live stream

John Dehlin [03:09:13] Really quickly, I just want to say we've got 4,000 people in the live stream. Can everybody hit the like button? Not for any selfish reasons, but. But if everybody were. There are only a thousand people. Hit the like button. If all 4,000 of you right now would hit the like button or after this, will send that into the algorithms and have this interview be promoted. And if it gets blasted, the algorithms, then this interview will get viewed, I don't know, a hundred thousand times in the next week or two by a lot of people. And it'll help a lot of people. So please subscribe and please, like right now, please comment, even if this is days later, it will really help this interview do well. So. And thank you to everyone who sent us super chats and everyone who makes this possible. Margi, I was. Go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:04] Were you still going to continue?

John Dehlin [03:10:05] Yes. Okay, but. But we remember what you were going to say. Okay. So would you spend a little bit of time talking about how the ward has reacted? These are people. You've been in this ward for how long?

Bishop Eyewitness on the Tithing Refusal

Nick Jones [03:10:22] 20 years. 20. 20 years.

John Dehlin [03:10:24] So that's very personal. When you've been in a ward, a congregation for 20 years, you know these people really well. And then when you serve as their bishop for two and a half years, where you're showing up at midnight or one o' clock in your suit, among thousands of other things, helping their youth, going to bed every night with your phone, not on silence. Like, you serve these people in a way that few of our listeners and viewers have ever served anyone. You're serving hundreds of people in the most personal, intimate ways without wanting you to, you know, throw shade on anyone. Can you talk about how the ward members have treated you and your family since this happened?

Nick Jones [03:11:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:06] Good. Embedded.

Amanda Jones [03:11:07] I.

Nick Jones [03:11:08] The answer is going to be very short. Only because how many people have showed up? Three. One, Two. Three. Two. Two families.

Amanda Jones [03:11:21] Yeah, two.

Nick Jones [03:11:23] Two families have.

John Dehlin [03:11:26] What?

Nick Jones [03:11:26] Have shown up at our house to tell them, Tell us we love them.

John Dehlin [03:11:31] They love you.

Nick Jones [03:11:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:33] And the rest?

Nick Jones [03:11:34] Nothing. I got the check, I got the. And this is going to hurt people, but this is how I see it. And if I see it, if I'm wrong in this, I'm perfectly okay with admitting it. But I got a slew across the stake of text messages, of we just want you to know we love you. And to me, in my own mind, that is okay. I checked the box, I did my ministering with him, and now I don't have to do it again. That's what it feels like to me now. There have been two who have. Well, not just two. There's been phone calls as well.

Amanda Jones [03:12:05] Yeah, there's been.

Nick Jones [03:12:06] But to our home, too.

Amanda Jones [03:12:08] But they're the ones that we already were very close with as well.

Nick Jones [03:12:11] You know, the current bishop and I talk weekly. I still get tithing envelopes in the mail and I take them to them. I reported everybody in the ward, full tithe pairs for the year.

Amanda Jones [03:12:23] You never got to that point.

Nick Jones [03:12:24] I didn't tell you that.

John Dehlin [03:12:27] Tell Don Mormons. Why, that's funny.

Nick Jones [03:12:31] So you sit down and have tithing declaration at the end of every year and you have to fill in. There's 447 people in the ward on my ward roster. You have to fill in a bubble as full tithe payer, part time, part tithe payer or non tithe payer, and then declared by the individual who paid the tithing or declared by the bishop if they weren't there to declare it for themselves. But the Brandon ward is the only ward in the entire church that was recorded as full tithe paying declared by themselves. And I'm going to tell you, the blessings that the ward are going to get are going to be unbelievable.

John Dehlin [03:13:11] So you basically declared them all as full tithe pairs.

Nick Jones [03:13:14] I think that they are going to probably one day thank me for the temple that I be built in Mississippi.

John Dehlin [03:13:22] And. And honestly, you did that. Why? Why you do that? Somebody's going, oh, that's dishonest. What? Why did you do that?

Nick Jones [03:13:27] Fine. Because all of it's dishonest. The fact that a woman comes into my ward every week. Who doesn't have two pennies to rub together and she pays $8 y' all in tithing. And here's the difference. The problem. She writes eight on the tithing slip, but there's $11 in the. In the envelope because she can't even count it.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:57] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:13:59] It's not okay to rob these poor people when you have hundreds of billions of dollars and it only costs half a billion dollars a year to Operate the entire church. I've read the widow's mite reports. It doesn't cost a fraction of what they gain in interest in a quarter to operate the entire church and to build all the temples that old Rusty wants to build. Sorry if that offends people, but it makes me angry that we are robbing these people and telling them they're going to be blessed. It's not okay. So instead, I would help them. I'd pay their bills. I'd make sure. If they paid $8, I made sure they got everything. Gosh, it's so bad. So hard for people to see. That's what's. You know, I'm being judged. I know I am. I can feel them. But if they just step outside, just for a minute, they'd be shocked at what they saw. And here's the thing. You don't have to stand at a pulpit to step down and make it videoed and put it out there.

Amanda Jones [03:15:19] Just.

Nick Jones [03:15:19] Just step away. I know you're scared. I am, too. But there's beauty in it. I can never go back. I can't ever go back to a church.

The response of the Ward members to excommunicated members

John Dehlin [03:15:41] And going back to the response of your ward members and the two families that did reach out, how would you. What. What would you have hoped the response would have been for people you had loved and served for two to 20 years?

Nick Jones [03:15:57] John, I don't have a hope for them. My hope for them is that they will eventually see that they've been lied to. That's my only hope for them. I'm not asking for anything from anyone because I don't need it.

John Dehlin [03:16:10] But you got to feel disappointment. We did. When we were excommunicated. Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:16:13] It hurts. I don't want to say disappointed. I'm not disappointed in them. I know they might be disappointed in me. It hurts that our relationship was based on the belief of the church. And it's not deeper than that. But I'll tell you, there are a handful in the ward. It's deeper than that. And those people I love and would do anything for. So that's all I need. I want a small group. In fact, my cousin's husband said, when I was in the church, my friendships were an inch thick and a mile wide. And when I left the church, my relationships were an inch wide and a mile thick.

John Dehlin [03:17:01] Or deep. Yeah.

Amanda Jones [03:17:02] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:17:02] Or deep.

John Dehlin [03:17:03] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:17:05] And I can see that.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:09] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:17:09] That's a little shout out for Jeff Pearson. I love you, buddy.

John Dehlin [03:17:18] Powerful. How's it been for your. What are you wanting to say, Amanda? For you or for the kids in terms of how. Because it wasn't easy for our kids to face what we faced. And Margi, it wasn't easy for you.

How's It Been for Your Family Since You Step Down

Margi Dehlin [03:17:37] I think it's one thing to, you know, have a major faith or life shift. Right. That's one thing. I think it's another thing when it becomes public.

Amanda Jones [03:17:52] For sure.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:53] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [03:17:57] It's been. It's just been a roller coaster. Our kids have their days and usually you can tell when, you know when they're having a rough day. And it's usually a random person and we'll sit down and kind of talk it through. As far as like friends and stuff. They've. The friend group that they've grown up with since they were babies has been amazing. And they actually went out last Friday night and had a ball and I was so happy because they were nervous and it just made my heart happy. And so I hope. That's all I can hope for them is that their true friends will stay true to them. And I feel like they will. It's just an emotional up and down non stop. I feel like.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:46] Yep.

Amanda Jones [03:18:47] For all of us and still so fresh. Feels like it's been a year, but it's only been a couple of weeks.

John Dehlin [03:18:53] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [03:18:53] It's been like.

John Dehlin [03:18:54] Is it less than a month?

Nick Jones [03:18:55] Yeah, it is a month. It was December. It was December 31st was the day we stepped down.

Amanda Jones [03:19:00] Oh, yeah. So right on the month. But it feels like it's been at least a year.

Bishop Jones on Cardon Ellis's Video

Nick Jones [03:19:02] And if we could maybe address that just briefly because a lot of people are hurt because we never came back. We fully intended to continue to be the bishop and the bishop's. The Jones family in the ward, however long it took for a new bishop to be called. It was when this went viral.

Amanda Jones [03:19:19] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:19:19] And all of a sudden people like the radio. What are the Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:24] The.

Nick Jones [03:19:26] What's the guys that made fun of me for an hour and a half.

Amanda Jones [03:19:27] Is it Radio Free?

John Dehlin [03:19:28] Oh, Ward Radio. That's KWAKU and Carter.

Nick Jones [03:19:31] Yeah. Who's the guy behind the soundboard?

John Dehlin [03:19:33] That's Cardon Ellis.

Nick Jones [03:19:34] Carden Ellis.

John Dehlin [03:19:35] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:19:36] I'd like to sit down with him and talk to him. I think he's completely misread me. I. I don't appreciate what he's done, but I'm not a coward. And I'd stare him in the eyes and I talked to him and give him a real narrative. I couldn't only listen to 20 minutes of it.

Amanda Jones [03:19:56] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:19:56] They just mocked my videos. Not my videos, but the. The resignation. They spent an hour and 40 minutes making fun of me, basically, and that's fine. I would never do that to him. I don't know him. And even if I did, I wouldn't do it to him. So it's sad that these people feel the need to do that. Sometimes I wonder if they're employed by the church to just make noise. But as much as I'd love to put him in a heel hook or a chokehold and teach him how to be a decent person, I don't think you can. Some people just want to talk mess on people, so that's fine. But so the ward members know and the stake members know, we had full, fully intended on being there until this had just completely fizzled out. But when all of a sudden I was in the public eye and a new bishop was being called that next Sunday, I felt like I'm going to just take away from all of that.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:59] Yeah, I see that.

Nick Jones [03:21:00] And so in my mind, I was trying to do the right thing by not coming because I knew it was going to be extremely hard for everybody if I was there, and if I wasn't there, it was going to be hard, but I think it would have been harder if. Would have been there.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:15] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:21:16] So that was our reasoning why we haven't been back.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:21] Yeah. Two hard choices. Really?

Nick Jones [03:21:23] Yes. You're. You're between a rock and a hard place. And you're like, what do I do? Well, I don't know.

Amanda Jones [03:21:28] Yeah, you just get to a point where you realize, like, the last. Whenever that happened and he stepped down, I was in primary and I was like, this is my last day in primary. And I was like, no, it's not. I'll be here next week, couple of weeks, it'll be fine. But as I sat there, like, with the kids and looked out at the primary room and saw, like, the articles of faith plastered on the wall and the pictures of the First Presidency, I was just like, I no longer believe in any of this. I'm standing up here teaching it to these kids. Like, there's just. I don't need to be here.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:08] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:15] And then one normal fear, conditioned fear that Mormons have is I can't be a faithful spouse if I'm not active in the church. And I can't be a good mom or dad or good parent, and there's no way my kids will be healthy and happy without the church. You're nodding.

Amanda Jones [03:22:34] Yeah. Because you think life's going to come crashing down on you.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:38] That's part of the conditioning.

Amanda Jones [03:22:39] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:22:39] You feel like your businesses are going to fail because you're not paying tithing, because you're not living the word of wisdom to a T. Because you're opening up about things that go on in the temple that you are now recognizing are not what you thought they were. And you fear the wrath of God. Absolutely. And I'll tell you this. You're waiting in three feet of water. Just stand up.

Amanda Jones [03:23:08] Yeah. It's beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:09] Yeah. I have a question. I feel like really we've captured you in this pause moment of a storm for you all, which can just. I can only imagine how overwhelming, destabilizing. Like, all the things. And as you said, freedom. Like, I think paradox shows up here. Opposing things that are true. Right. And authenticity. You're having, like, very authentic conversations with your children, it feels like, but nonetheless just so, so very overwhelming. Right. I would just love to hear some of your hopes, if you can speak to them. Like hopes for the future or. You know,

How To Convince a Latter-Day Saint Back to Church

Nick Jones [03:23:57] I actually wrote something about the future recently. I've got some notes here. Can I tell you. Yes, yes. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna segue into that. When you step away from thinking your celestial material and everyone else around you who's not a Mormon is not,

Amanda Jones [03:24:20] you

Nick Jones [03:24:20] see the beauty in the world. So I can't take pain medicine, so I had to get my medical card to help with this surgery I had. And in this cannabis shop, this girl sitting here, and she's got nose piercings, really pale, tattooed. And in the church, I would have just. I wouldn't have given her a second of my time. She wasn't celestial enough. And in an instant, all of a sudden, she was so important to me. She needed to know that I was interested in who she was and that she was somebody to me. And what was interesting is because I had that paradigm shift, she wasn't giving me the time of day either. But all of a sudden, I asked how she was doing, what she liked, and everything changed. So I've been doing this now with a neighbor, and my neighbor's like 600 yards away, but I called him the other day. I said, man, you've asked me to have a beer with you like a thousand times, and I just turned you down. And I didn't want anything to do with you because of that. I'd like to sit down and have a beer with you. I want you to know that I've left a religion that was a high demand religion that didn't allow me to connect with you. I told him this, and I know that sounds really weird and crazy. But I want you to know I'm not a bad guy. I'm a nice guy, and I want to be your friend. I called a man who Left the Church 12 years ago who was in our ward. I went to his home time after time trying to convert him back to Mormonism. I talked to him yesterday morning. His name is Dan Sherman. About seven months ago, I went to his house to try to get him to come back to church. Maybe not seven, maybe a year ago now, because it was before I started to deconstruct with a good friend in the ward. And we knocked on the door and I asked if we could come in. And he said, you can't come in. But he can. Because years ago, I was told by the previous. By a bishop to take him the sacrament on a Sunday after church. And I force fed him bread and water in his living room, basically. And it had an effect on them that made them hate me. And I was able to get on the phone with him yesterday and tell him I was sorry and offer him some kind of, you know, peace treaty.

Margi Dehlin [03:26:54] Yeah. And acknowledging is powerful.

Bishop Jones

Nick Jones [03:26:58] He wants to sit down and have lunch and hang out and talk. It's beautiful what you can do when you aren't limited.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:08] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:27:08] To how you can approach somebody and love somebody.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:12] The barriers.

Nick Jones [03:27:13] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:13] Are kind of.

Nick Jones [03:27:14] The walls are gone.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:15] Yeah.

Nick Jones [03:27:15] The shame, the guilt, gone. I can tell you anything you want to know. It's freeing.

John Dehlin [03:27:21] I have a friend that calls it surrendering the one up. Right.

Nick Jones [03:27:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:25] Surrendering that you're better than anybody.

Nick Jones [03:27:28] Yeah.

Amanda Jones [03:27:28] Right.

John Dehlin [03:27:28] You're all. Instead, you're just all equals.

Nick Jones [03:27:30] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:31] Yeah. And it reminds me a little bit even of what you described with your. Your children.

Nick Jones [03:27:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:37] That people become real. People become alive. Significant to you.

Nick Jones [03:27:44] It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's just frustrating. And you. You become angry because you feel robbed a little bit of recognizing the beauty that was always there, but you were refusing to see it because of this thing that you were programmed to think. And some people can do it. Some people can juggle the two. And kudos to them. I can't. I had to be true to that thing. So I couldn't do it while in. And I'm not saying you can't. Maybe you can. And if you can, great. I couldn't. So give me that grace as much as I give you that grace.

Margi Dehlin [03:28:21] That's right.

Nick Jones [03:28:23] I should say us. I'm sorry, honey. Give us that grace because she is 100% in this with me.

Margi Dehlin [03:28:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:32] So we'll have some closing comments, but I'm just going to remind everyone, number one, that it's February 1st. For those of you who are watching or listening live, 7pm at Bewilder Brewing Downtown, Salt Lake, 445 South, 400 West. If you want to have a beer with with Bishop Jones, you can have a beer with Bishop Jones tonight, 7 to 9. I'm not sure if I'll be there. Rebecca Biblioteca will be there. And it's your way to meet this guy. Get a selfie with him and his wife Amanda. Tell them that you love them and how much you appreciate them. Also, please again, hit the like button. Subscribe so that we can blast this everywhere. Maybe to close. You wrote a lot of stuff. I want to give either of you any chance to make sure and say any of the things and we can go for another hour. Like, you know. I'm sure you won't, but Bishop, Nick, Amanda, any final words? Either of you want to share?

Friends Hold a Prayer for the Soul

Nick Jones [03:29:36] Yeah, I'd like to share a few things. Christ means the anointed. It's not the surname of Jesus. In Sanskrit, the meaning of Christ is the man who woke up, who discovered who he really was. I feel like the world is waking up in its own little way. John, you've done. You and Margi have done an incredible thing. So I commend you for being pioneers in this thing to help people out

John Dehlin [03:30:18] of

Nick Jones [03:30:22] the pain and manipulation that is just perpetuated upon them. I thank you for that and all of those who stand with you. I admire you, but I don't push you on a pedestal. I refuse to do that. In fact, that's my trigger. If anybody is elevated over another, I'm out 100%. I'm not interested. So I would say step into the unknown. It's a place without walls and it's terrifying. But it's painfully beautiful. That's all I really have to say. Thank you. Thank you so much for offering us to come. We just simply want to help people in our own little small way. Now let Amanda say whatever she has to say. She's more important.

Amanda Jones [03:31:23] No, I guess, really just following that up. I hope that through this I know probably still will cause pain to some, but I hope that they can at least see that we're just trying to spread love. We love you the friends that we've had for this long. We love the new friends that we're making and just want it all to come together, you know, for people to feel peace and happiness. That's where I would say we hope to get to a peaceful place. And you had asked about hope and the same for y', all just allowing us to be here. I know it's helped me just being here and talking through things. So that's a gift and a blessing. Grateful for it.

John Dehlin [03:32:12] Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, so for those who can join us tonight, we'll see there tomorrow morning. I believe we're going to have a panel of four Mormon bishops, ex bishops. They're going to talk a little bit more about, you know, being a bishop in the modern age. I think Nick's going to be here with a few other friends, so check back for that. And we've got a lot of good stuff coming up. Margi, any final words?

Mormon Stories: A Final Goodbye to Amanda and Nick

Margi Dehlin [03:32:40] Just a final. Like all the gratitude to you both. You know, it's one thing, I think, to talk about hard things, it's another thing to really be in a storm and have a lot of things coming down around you and to be as vulnerable and brave and generous as you both have. So really just thank you to you and we're just wishing you all the good, healing love for your futures and want to hug you both up in a minute.

Amanda Jones [03:33:16] Thank you.

Nick Jones [03:33:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:33:19] Maven's reminding me or asking me to give a shout out to floodlit.org it's an organization that is sharing, I guess, a registry of sexual predators within the Mormon Church just so that there can be a way for you to know who's out there and how to protect yourselves since the church won't do it. So shout out to floodlit.org and the good work they do. Shout out to ex Mormon TikTok and the ex Mormon subreddit because those are very important ways our community can communicate and find out about these things. So thanks, ex Mormon. Write it. Thanks for Ex Mormon TikTok. Thanks to Maven and Julia and Brooklyn and Gerardo. That's my core staff here. In terms of production, they make all this possible. Margi, I love having you here as my co host and our board makes all this possible, too. Thanks to all the donors that donate to Mormon Stories in the Overstories Foundation. We couldn't do it without you. It's the monthly donations that keep us going. So if you value this type of content, you want to see it continue. We, you know, we lose donors every month and if we don't replace them, then we have to start cutting back. So if you feel moved to support us or to pay it forward, go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor and we'll appreciate it. We also thank all those who donate through Super Chat or through, you know, Venmo or PayPal or Patreon, however they do it. Anyway, thanks for joining us today. We love the live stream. We have lots of good stuff coming up. I love what I do most of the time. And, yeah, be good to each other and be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. And and Nick and Amanda, your courage as two people who have lived public scrutiny and have felt the pain individually as a couple and for our children for trying to stand for truth, I don't think there are a lot of people who know how hard it is to do what you two have done, how courageous it is and how meaningful it is. That level of courage is almost unheard of in this community. As brave and as powerful and as beautiful as this community is, few people have the courage to do what you've done. So Margi and I are witnesses to you. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts and we honor and respect you and your family. So thank you. Thank you, John, so much.

Nick Jones [03:36:07] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:36:08] Yeah, thanks so much. All right. All right. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

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