Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Augustus [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

Emmett [00:00:43] Lead

Guest [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am a co host, John De Lynn and I am joined as always by my brilliant wife.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:01] Thanks babe. Who are you? Margi Dehlin. Nice to see you all.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] We're very, very excited to have you all with us today. It is April 25, 2017 and we are really, really excited for our panel today. Today we're going to be talking about the topic of transgender and intersex sort of education within a Mormon context. We we have a really wonderful panel with us. As always, before we jump into the actual topic, we have a few announcements we'd like to make. We do have some events coming up, some Mormon Stories events that we want to make sure everyone knows about. May 4th through 5th will be in Fort Collins, Colorado. January 7th through 8th will be in Dallas, Texas. It's going to be a Texas retreat, a full two day retreat. We're hoping Austin, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and even Oklahoma City. If we have any listeners in any of those cities or somebody just wants to travel, we're gonna have a full two day retreat in Dallas, Texas. We're really excited about in August. This is new. We're gonna be holding a two day mixed faith marriage retreat. So if you're in a mixed faith marriage or mixed faith relationship and you want to hear and to dive in and meet people and to discuss those issues. Dr. Julie Diazevedo Hanks, who is a believing, faithful member of the church, will be partnering with me, who's no longer part of church activity, will be holding a two day retreat in Utah County. So we'd really love we'll be putting up a registration page for that very soon. We have Seattle, Washington coming September 14th and 15th. We have Sydney, Australia coming October 20th through 22nd. And then in November we're going to be doing Northern California, which includes hopefully the Bay Area, San Francisco, Oakland, Sacramento, et cetera. You can go to MormonStories.org, you'll see an events page up in the menu. You can click there for more information. You can also go to mormontransitions.org events and check out our events there. We're really excited about that. We have a few upcoming topics for this series, this sort of Mormon Transitions, Mormon Stories series that we started where we interview panels where Margi and I co host. The topics coming up next week will be Healthy Marriage with just basics. On Healthy Marriage with Natasha Halford Parker. We're going to do that for two weeks in a row. We're really excited about that. So if any of you are interested in the topics around healthy marriages, healthy relationships, that'll be the next two weeks. In three weeks, we'll be talking about creating a healthy family culture in or after a Mormon transition. Then we're going to do a little series on what I'm calling Middle Way Mormonism or Neo Apologetics. So if you're interested in trying to make the church work, we hope to have some really good guests there. And so those are some of the topics that are coming up and even more in the future. We're going to be talking about women recreating themselves during and after Mormon transition. We're going to be talking about finding community and even rethinking the word of wisdom. So those are some of the topics that will be coming up in the next six to eight weeks. We're really grateful for anyone who sends us email, you can send it to mormonstoriesmail.com we would love to get your ideas for topics, your ideas for guests, any questions or comments around those topics, we would love your participation. So those are some of the upcoming topics. And again, we just always want to begin and end by saying this all takes place because of the Open Stories foundation, because of those who are willing to support what we do. So if you find that you're enjoying these panels, these podcasts, we would love it if you would take the time to go to MormonStories.org, mormonTransitions.org and make a recurring donation, because that is what makes this possible. $10, $20 a month, whatever you can afford, can go to the foundation. We're transparent. We love our mission of supporting people affected by religious transition in or out of the church. And we just wanted to let you know we appreciate your support. So that's the business that we always have to kind of touch on. Thanks for your patience. Now for the heart of today's episode. Today we are going to be talking about issues surrounding the topic of transgender education, of Intersex education and just the transgender intersex experience within Mormonism. We were so happy and thrilled with yesterday's interview with Kimberly Anderson. Lots of great feedback, lots of great participation. We'll be releasing that in just say a few days to a week. This will be part two of that series and then we're going to have at least two more people that we sort of do one hour interviews with. But today is going to be more of a panel topic. And maybe the difference between a panel topic and some of these deeper dives is it's just, it's obviously going to be sharing emotion and experience, but maybe shorter answers. More of a panel discussion where we try and focus on the educational aspects a little bit more than the deeper dive and maybe some of the more narrative based emotional experiences. Although there's going to be narrative and emotion in our discussion today as well. But that's kind of how we differentiate between the panels and sort of the one on one interviews that are the deep dives. And as a part of today's discussion, we have some wonderful panelists. Joining us again is Kimberly Anderson. We also have joining us Ann Pack and Emmett Claron. And we hope that Augustus Crosby will be joining us soon. Augustus hasn't connected yet, but as soon as Augustus joins us, we would be thrilled to have him with us. So that's the introduction to the panel. Why don't we go ahead and go around with our panelists? Well, first, I just want to say to all of you from Margi and myself and to all who are joining us, thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. It's good to have you all, and you're all muted, so I'm going to unmute you so that you can respond. Welcome.

Ann [00:07:36] Thanks for having me.

Emmett [00:07:39] Thanks, John. I'm happy to be here.

Guest [00:07:42] Thanks, John.

Panelists Introduce Themselves

John Dehlin [00:07:43] All right, so let's just go around the horn really quick and maybe have each of you introduce yourselves. You can talk about your name, your identity, your age, what you do for a living, anything about your life that you feel comfortable sharing. If there's anything again about your identity, about pronouns, about anything that you want to sort of lead with in your introduction. Anything that we should know about our language or our conversation or what we should be thoughtful about. We'd love to hear that. So, Kimberly, would you mind starting?

Guest [00:08:18] Not at all. I see my role today as one of a listener largely because I was granted a large chunk of time yesterday. So I'll try and stay out of the way of some other wonderful voices. But my Name is Kimberly Anderson. I'm 48 years old. I describe myself as a self actualized or a self determined woman, which is not to say anything really about pathology or diagnosis or language in particular, but it's just to say that there was a point in my life where I decided to express and my identity as a woman and to take the things that I learned about living as a man and incorporate them into my identity as a woman. Moving forward. I have resigned from the church. I was married for 20 years. I have two lovely children. I have a wonderful relationship with my kids and I have a very amicable relationship with my former spouse. I'm currently living south of Sacramento and I'm pursuing an MFT degree at the University of San Francisco.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:18] Exciting.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Beautiful. And Kimberly, we just loved our time with you yesterday and we're glad you're willing to join us again. So it's a pleasure to have you, Ann.

Emmett [00:09:31] Does that mean it's my turn?

John Dehlin [00:09:33] It's your turn.

Emmett [00:09:34] Okay. My name is Ann Pack and I prefer female pronouns. Her, hers. And she grew up in Utah, lifelong Mormon, raised in a Mormon family. I'm married, still married to my wife that I. We got married in the Bountiful Temple 17 years ago and we have a 12 year old daughter. We live in Syracuse, Utah and we're active in our ward. We attend church and see what else. Work for Zion's bank as IT systems administrator.

Guest [00:10:24] Great.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Wonderful. Wow. It is such an honor and a pleasure to have you on Mormon Stories, Ann. And for those who won't remember, Ann was one of the featured speakers in our Mama Dragons Mormon Stories episode where she read the. Was it the Unknown mama? Remind me.

Emmett [00:10:43] It was the unknown mama. Kimberly Anderson asked me to kind of read the Unknown, which I love this Mama Dragon story. So I was honored to be able to read it.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] So welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Emmett [00:10:59] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] All right, thanks, Anne. Emmett. You're welcome.

Ann [00:11:07] Hi. Thank you. I feel really privileged to be a part of this. So I am 23 years old. I am a transgender man, although I kind of look like a transgender teenage boy. I am active in the church, as active as I can be. I still attend every Sunday and I've been really blessed to have really good supportive leaders. I am the oldest of seven kids and I live out here in Utah. I'm preparing to go back to school in the fall up at Weber State University, studying digital media. So I'm super, super excited for that. Right now I'm just working full time, saving up money, but I Have. I've been a part of affirmation. I was privileged to be able to speak at the last conference, and I hope that something I say today will help somebody so.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] Well, we're welcome. And tell us about your scholarship at

Ann [00:12:24] Weber State really quickly, if you don't mind. We're just giving a call.

Augustus [00:12:28] No, I'm super excited.

Ann [00:12:29] I just found out right before I got on to this call that I was awarded the Matthew Shepard Scholarship at Weber State.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:41] Super excited.

Ann [00:12:42] Yeah. Thank you. Way to go. I just feel so honored because, I mean, if you don't know, you know, who Matthew Shepard is, He was a gay. A gay man who was murdered, I believe it was. It was back in the 90s. I forget which year, but he just. The. His death really raised a lot of awareness for the LGBT community. And, you know, and it just. So this. The school has, you know, come up with this foundation in honor of him, and they wanted to award someone who they felt was helping the community and who had goals and dreams to help the community. And that's. You know, I said, I want to help the LGBT community, especially the transgender community. What I'm planning on doing with my life, I have big things planned, especially in film and wanting to. To raise awareness and to help, you know, give people hope through the entertainment industry. So I'm committed to that. That's what I want to do with the rest of my life, and I just feel incredibly honored.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:01] Congratulations.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Well, we love having you today, Emmett. Thank you for joining us.

Ann [00:14:05] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] And as serendipity would have it, Augustus just joined us. So, Emmett, we're thrilled you're here. And, Augustus, would you mind just introducing yourself really briefly, the fourth panelist for today?

Augustus [00:14:21] Yeah, my name is Augustus Crosby. I'm 20, almost 21 years old. I currently go to BYU. I was at. No, I currently go to ASU. I was at BYU for about a year.

Ann [00:14:37] I

Augustus [00:14:39] am currently just going to school for chemical engineering. I might double major in political science. We'll see how that goes. Anything else that we were introducing ourselves with?

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Yeah, yeah. Tell us how you identify and if there's any pronouns or background information or words we should know. Yeah.

Augustus [00:15:05] Okay. So I'm trans. I was born a female, and I go by he himself. I've been on hormones for a year and a half. No, not a half. A year and four months. So, like, 16 months. I transitioned pretty much immediately after a suicide attempt when I was still at byu. And then I came back and I was like, well, that's pretty much my answer. Why would I wait any longer? Because for the first time in my life, I wasn't like, I was an adult so I could actually make decisions and I wasn't held down by a place that could possibly like, hold my education hostage. So that was why I ended up transitioning when I did.

Emmett [00:16:01] My dog is.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] That's good. We're dog affirmy here.

Augustus [00:16:07] And so, yeah, I identify as trans and sexual. I know that Emmett's straight, so which means he likes girls. And I. I don't have a preference. So a little bit different. And I. I'm more. I haven't gone to church in a while, so I'm a little bit more on the. I was pushed out of the church and I just like, accepted that push out. I'm not out out yet, but I'm definitely like feeling. Feeling pushed out and it's okay. Like, I've accepted it, so.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, we're so thrilled to have you with us, Augustus. Thanks for joining us. And we're excited to talk today. And I like, we have a balance that Kimberly and Augustus are maybe not either fully out or not super engaged, but then Ann and Emmett are in some ways believing are still engaged. And we just love to have that sort of balance. So I'm really grateful that the panel has got that sort of distribution. So, so glad to have you, Augustus. So we're gonna do something that's kind of impossible today. And Augustus, I'll mute you and then just. Cause I'll mute you and then you unmute yourself whenever you want to talk. Is that okay?

Augustus [00:17:37] Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Okay. So we're gonna do something that's impossible. We've got a little less an hour and a half already left and we've got, oh, I don't know, 33, 34 questions that we could cover. So I just want to emphasize again. And Augustus, you'll just be hearing this for the first time. Our focus today isn't on a deep dive. It's sort of on trying to provide as much succinct information as we can from a variety of experiences. So Margi and I will be kind of alternating, asking some questions and we're just going to. And don't feel like everyone has to answer every question, but we want to just try and cover as many topics as we can, getting a variety of perspectives to make this sort of hour and a half as informational and as educational as it can be for our listeners. And each one of you already know, I'm like, why don't I do a full Interview with each of you. So that's what my. That's what I want to do. But we don't have that luxury, so we'll just do the best we can. So I'm going to. We'll start with just the first question, and again, just give us the brief, succinct answer, and we'll just keep chugging through. So the first question. And this came from your list that you guys put together. When did you know. When did you know that the gender that was assigned to you was maybe different than how you felt inside? And we'll start with Augustus, then Emmett, then Anne, then Kimberly, and I'll go ahead.

When Did You Know You Were Transgender?

Guest [00:19:15] Okay.

Augustus [00:19:17] So I always. I didn't have a term for it when I was younger, but I always, like, knew something wasn't up. So there was never, like, a really big aha moment. The aha moment was more like when I finally found the terminology, which was like, when I was typing in Yahoo answers, like, why do I feel like a boy? Or, like, why do I feel like I should have been born a boy? Or something like that? So I finally came across the term of being transgender, and I was, like, immediately like, oh, yeah, that's me. That makes so much sense. And it felt for the first time that I wasn't alone. So that was really, really nice.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] And around what age was that for you?

Augustus [00:20:00] That was probably around 11 or 12, but I've known for a little while.

Emmett [00:20:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] Okay, that makes sense. Emmett.

Ann [00:20:16] Yeah. So it might sound cliche, but I. Ever since I was little, I mean, ever since I could remember, honestly, my earliest memories, to me, in my head, I was always a boy. I was just this little boy. I just. My body was just not matching up, and I. It just. It just didn't. And of course, growing up in a very conservative town with a conservative family, the word transgender, like, the closest thing that I thought of when I heard transgender was like, a cross dresser. And I was like, well, that's not who I am, so I can't be that. But I didn't actually learn what the word transgender was until I was a senior in high school, because a friend of mine came out to me, and when they said they felt like a girl trapped in a boy's body, I was like, well, I feel like a boy trapped in a girl's body, because all my life I felt like, I'm this guy, and I'm attracted to girls, but I'm not a lesbian because I'm not a girl who likes girls. So it just. It took a while for me to figure out the word, kind of like Augustus, it just. It took a little bit, but. But I always knew, like, I just always knew that inside my. My heart, my soul, my spirit, it was always. It was always male.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:33] Yeah.

Ann [00:21:34] Brilliant.

John Dehlin [00:21:35] Excellent. Thank you, Emmett. Ann.

Emmett [00:21:41] Yeah, So I probably like Augustus and Emmett. Ever since I can remember, something felt not quite right or I felt different. You know, I didn't have, like they said, I didn't have the vocabulary. I think the time that I first knew something wasn't right was I was at a church dance, kind of youth dance. And I remember watching all the kids dance and wishing I was one of those girls and wishing I was dancing with a boy. And that was 14, 13, so that's probably the first time. And I recognized what it was, but I had felt it ever since a young age.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] Thank you, Ann. Thank you, Kimberly.

Guest [00:22:48] I can't stress how important it is to hear these people's voices. I will cry today. I reserve that. Right. So, Anne Augustus, thank you. I knew from the dawn of my waking, the dawn of my consciousness, that something was as off as it could possibly be. And I would say that that is probably around the age of three or four. And that sounds like a cliche. We hear that all the time. Oh, I have known since I was 3 or 4, but I kind of look back. There were days probably before I was age 3 or 4, that I knew, but I don't know what age that was. It's just at the moment of self actualization, of self awareness, I knew something was wrong.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:42] Mm.

Emmett [00:23:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:46] Beautiful. Thank you, Kimberly. And I echo Margi. And I echo what you. What you said. Kimberly. We're honored to have everyone's voice here today, and it's. I'm feeling very honored. Before we jump to the next question, I'm just going to make an observation. And this is one of the things I do where the question may sound jarring or even offensive, but I know it's something that people often think, especially cisgender, you know, straight people that have no education or exposure. It's this idea that, oh, my gosh. You know, this transgender phenomenon seems to be much more prevalent than it. Than it ever was 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. Oh, my gosh. Maybe it's just this trend. Maybe people hear that. It's. They see, you know, Caitlyn Jenner or whatever, and all of a sudden, it's the fad of the day. I know it's one of the most offensive things that someone could say, but I want to speak that sort of thing on this podcast so that it can be addressed. And I know that it's completely wrong, but what occurs to me is until you know that this is a thing, until you have a vocabulary and even role models to even understand, I can imagine that decades in the past, people just lived not knowing how to put words or descriptions or sort of knowledge that there was this thing, that it was a phenomenon. Can any of you just sort of try and articulate more succinctly what I'm trying to have us discuss? Ann, why don't you jump first?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:20] Yeah.

Emmett [00:25:21] So I was asked this one time, you know, why does it seem so new? And this person, you know, they said, I know it's not new, but why does it seem that way? Well, it's not new, and it seems that way because it's becoming more safe for those of us who are transgender to be out and visible and be seen. Whereas back, you know, 20, 30 years ago, it was not safe, and many of us were, you know, punished as young kids for showing feminine traits or, you know, masculine traits. And so, yeah, it's just. It's becoming a lot safer. It's still not optimal safe, but it's getting better.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] Love it. Anyone else want to jump in? Just go ahead and unmute, and I'll know. You want to. You want to jump in? I appreciate your patience, Kimberly.

Guest [00:26:33] Like Ann, I get this question all the time, and I'm going to say that there's two things that are going on. Ann's comments are spot on. It is becoming a safer, more accepting place to live. But also, I think that the proliferation of the Internet allows us to communicate much, much, much easier, allows us to share our stories. There's no gatekeeper any longer with a publisher or a book deal or a magazine or a TV show. We can tell our own stories in our own way, and shows like this that we're on currently allows us to spread our stories to a wider audience. So I'm going to say that the ease of communication, the Gutenberg press of the 20th century, which is what we're participating in right this very moment, is the reason why people. People seem to think that there is a phenomenon of transgender people sprouting out of the ground from nowhere. But it's. This is as old as language, this condition, this symptom, this phenomenon of intersex and transgender is as old as recorded history.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:42] So true.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] 100%. Augustus, Emmett, do either of you want to add anything, or are you guys good? Good. Okay.

Augustus [00:27:51] Emmett.

Ann [00:27:51] Yeah, I just don't want to take up too much time. So I just wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] Anytime you guys want to jump in, just unmute, and I'll take that as a cue that you want to add something. Is that okay? All right, beautiful. Thank you so much for addressing that. Thanks for your compassion with me as I ask an offensive question. In the spirit of trying to educate. Thank you.

Growing Up With Church Messaging on Gender

Margi Dehlin [00:28:12] So turning to kind of growing up, years growing up in the church, talk about messaging a little bit, if you don't mind, maybe some messages that were really helpful and messages that maybe were a little more troubling or harmful.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] Anne, we'll have you start.

Emmett [00:28:33] Okay. Well, families. I really love how the church is family oriented, and I've always loved the idea that I was going to be with my family forever. And probably the troubling thing was, of course, my gender, because that's always been. It's always been a hurdle for me. The proclamation. For a long time, that bothered me. I think we all know what it says in there, that gender is eternal. Until a few years ago, I realized, yeah, gender is eternal, and my gender is female. I was female before this life. I'm female here on Earth, and I'll be female for eternity.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:44] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] Thanks, Annette.

Ann [00:29:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] So,

Ann [00:29:51] like I said, I grew up in a very conservative family in a conservative town, and if you were at the least bit different, I mean, it was. It was not easy. And so I had to, you know, keep quiet, and I didn't know how to voice myself. And so growing up and constantly, you know, hearing things about, you know, the LGBT community and just. And the things that sometimes I would hear, you know, my friends or family say, you know, and the thing is that they didn't even know that in their own home, you know, they have a transgender child. But it was. It was just. They're like, your friend is trans, and you don't even realize. And so it was hurtful to hear those things and not know what to say, especially because I didn't feel like I was that different. I didn't feel like I was a freak. I didn't. You know, I didn't feel that way. I just felt like something got mixed up, and here I am, but I'm just me, you know, I'm just a normal person.

Augustus [00:30:57] And so.

Ann [00:30:57] And then along with what Ann was saying, exactly, with the proclamation, I. That was. That was something hard to hear. But, you know, again, with what she has said, I have come to terms with, you know, that I do believe that gender is eternal, and I believe that my spirit is and always has been male. And that will never change because my body is very imperfect, but my soul, my spirit is perfect and it always will be.

Emmett [00:31:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:28] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Kimberly.

Guest [00:31:37] I think I should unmute myself. So when I was trying to fit myself into the church model, everything that Ann said and everything that Emmett said is exactly where I was. The proclamation of the family was released, and I read through it, and I'm like, a minute, this is not exactly what I think. Doesn't sound very right. And then I kind of parsed out those few lines that were very slippery and very nebulous. And I was able to kind of see that the language that they're using allows me to feel that who I am does kind of fit into this idea of eternal gender. I know many, many trans people that that line and trans parents, the parents of transgender kids that are also TBM still or believing members, they find a great deal of solace from that line not being radically exclusionary. They find a great deal of comfort in that they see that there is a place for their child. It is important to remember, though, that the church is very binary. Church is very, extremely male, very extremely female, and that there's a whole giant range of gender non binary or gender non conforming people that kind of fit in this middle area that we really don't ever talk about. And also we even talk about intersex in a proclamation of the family whatsoever. The language just doesn't exist. So even though a binary person that identifies as strongly male, strongly female, they do have kind of a place that they can find comfort in the proclamation. There's also a wide range of individuals who don't find that comfort as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:23] So true.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] Makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] Augustus.

Augustus [00:33:28] Yeah. Going off of that, that was the finding out that there were such thing as people who were intersex was. Was originally my, like, okay, being myself, like I was. After finding that out, I was finally like, okay, so, like, I can be this way because this is valid. Like, there aren't these binary people, like, all the time. And so back when I was, like, TBM and completely, like, believing, and I couldn't not believe that's where I was at. But anyway, like, growing up, I remember being, like, really young, and I think it was. It was some sort of church activity where I found out that I was, like, supposed to have kids. And I was like, wait, but what? That doesn't make sense. Like, like, have kids, like, have kids grow in my stomach. Like, and I understood biology enough, but, like, also, like, I didn't get it. Like, I was like, but wait, why? Because I viewed myself as a male. But, like, you understand that you're not, but you also, like, you think that maybe your body will, like, be on your side for once, but it never does. It never is. And so I remember being all like, okay, so I'm gonna. It took me a while, but I was like, okay, okay, I got this. I'm gonna do this. Like, slowly but surely, it became a big, like, no, I can't do this, because, like, I was just, like, basically lying to everyone. I mean, like, I felt like I was lying to everyone that I was like, I. I am not this person that you guys think I am. And, I mean, like, I carried a lot more guilt of, like, not telling people, especially my senior year in high school, but being in the church and not telling people, because I just couldn't tell people if I wanted to, like, survive in the LDS Church. Because if you spoke anything, you would be like, a. Like, nobody knows what transgender was like, or they still really don't, but at least it's a little bit more. People are a little bit more knowledgeable now because of, like, Caitlyn Jenner and people who are more visible and in the mainstream media. But, yeah, it was just a death wish, basically.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:09] Yeah.

Ann [00:36:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:36:12] Thank you, Augustus. If I could just summarize what I heard. It's just that maybe one of the biggest problems is there isn't a demonstration of awareness or sensitivity or language or doctrine or theology that takes into account the reality of the transgender journey.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:36:35] And so, on the one case, you're sort of invisible, and in the other case, there's language that shows a lot of ignorance and unawareness and insensitivity. And so it's either you're invisible or it's violent language. But there's certainly nothing that shows awareness and sensitivity and accommodation and even support and affirmation for this journey, for this phenomenon. Augustus, going off of the themes that you just spoke about, the next question we had was, and this comes from one of you, describe what the closet looks like to you. Kimberly, why don't we start with you? What is the closet? What did the closet look like to you?

Guest [00:37:25] Super, super lonely and super, super dark. And that's kind of a metaphor, actually, for all my darkroom work.

Ann [00:37:34] Actually.

Guest [00:37:34] It's kind of funny to think about that. I actually. I kind of took advantage of the closet in a lot of ways. I was able to. And I talked about this yesterday quite a bit. I was able to pursue a kind of a sense of normalcy. I got to live inside this bubble of a straight appearing, you know, heterosexual male that was married and was raising a family and served in callings and took advantage of all the. All the things that the average white male member of the church gets to take advantage of. So the closet, for me, I took advantage of it and I ran with it as far as I could physically. But emotionally, it was very damaging. Extremely damaging.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] Thank you, Ann. What. What is the. What? The closet look. What did that look like to you?

Ann [00:38:32] Hell.

Emmett [00:38:34] It looked and felt like hell to me. There was. There was a lot of shame. I mean, I wanted to be a girl. That's. That's shameful. Growing up in, you know, late 80s, early 90s Utah. And I didn't want to make my parents or my family feel shamed. And, you know, it's kind of like, well, what will the neighbors think? Or what will. What will everyone think? And, yeah, yeah, it was. There was. I felt suicidal at times. Because why would anyone want to live this way? So, yeah, I guess I made it through, so. Because I'm here. But, yeah, the closet is destroying. Damaging.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] Thank you, Augustus.

Augustus [00:39:51] I know that my closet was mostly just, like, me thinking about having to deal with how I felt for, like, 60 more years. So it was like all that pressure, like, on my shoulders first. Like, 60 years of. I'm gonna have to deal with this and I can't tell anyone. And I'm watching all these people, like, go their path in life and transition, and I'm just, like, stuck. And I. That. That was so hard to like, constantly feel that way because there was just no relief. Like, it was, like, the only kind of relief I ever was. Like, try. That I ever did kind of was, like, lose myself in an eating disorder, which, like, lasts still kind of lasting. But, I mean, like, I have issues with that. And, yeah, it's just a dark, dark place. Like, I'll just echo you.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:51] Just.

Augustus [00:40:52] There's nothing you can do. And it's just, you lose yourself and you lose happiness, and there's no way out, mostly.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Thank you. And, Emmett,

Ann [00:41:10] for me, the closet was a spiritual prison. Because, like I said, my whole life knew inside I was a boy. And, you know, for 21 years, I was fighting. You know, like, do I fight for this boy inside, or do I just keep him locked up in this prison? And it took me 21 years to realize, like, I will die if I don't let my spirit be free and be true. And it came to that point where it was like, I'M gonna die. And it was almost like I felt my spirit dying. That was how. How incredibly low I was. I was at a point when my life was over. It was either live or die, and I chose to live. And bringing my spirit out of that prison was the best thing I ever did because it just. It saved me. And I don't ever, ever want to go back into that. Into the closet. I don't ever want to go back into that prison because, you know, even with how scary the world can be right now towards trans people and being. Being more and more visible, it's a scary thing. But I'd be more scared to put that boy back in that cell.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Love it. Thank you, Emmett. Thanks to all of you.

Family Reactions and Experiences of Isolation

Margi Dehlin [00:42:53] I remember so recently I was reading they did a National Geographic on gender. I don't know if any of you had seen that, but one thing I remember while reading was just being really struck by the vulnerability of trans people as they live in the world. So my question is, what. Have you had experiences being bullied or harassed? Is that part of your journeys? And if you would mind just speaking about that briefly and why don't we. We could start maybe with Ann on that, if you don't mind sharing.

Guest [00:43:33] Sure.

Emmett [00:43:33] Not at all.

Ann [00:43:37] Yeah.

Emmett [00:43:38] Short answer. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:40] And

Emmett [00:43:43] even by my own parents, When I first realized, okay, I think I'm transgender. This was early 20s, few years after I got back from my mission. I told my dad how I felt, and he said that. He told me a story about how there was one of those people at his work, and he said that I. Would make an ugly woman. So I'm still trying to get his words out of my head today, and hopefully he's not listening to this, but he's come a long ways. And, yeah, our own families can be bullies sometimes without even meaning to.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:51] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Ann. How about you, Kimberly? Any experiences with bullying or being harassed?

Guest [00:45:03] I'm sitting here in pain, emotional pain. Yesterday, I talked about not being bullied ever as a child, and that is true. Ann's comments about being bullied by your family ripped into my chest, tear out my heart in the most violent fashion possible. I have been bullied and shamed and ridiculed and rejected summarily by my siblings and by my mother and by my father. To a large degree, I have been bullied into changing my first and my last name. I have been bullied out of Christmas Eve celebrations. I have bullied away from family reunions and family trips and birthdays and anniversaries and Thanksgivings. I've been bullied out of their life by my own family. It's incredibly damaging.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:06] I'm sorry.

Guest [00:46:08] Thank you. I'm sorry, too. I'm tremendously sorry. And so that's why I talked yesterday about my bar being set at zero with my family. To expect anything more than nothing from them just encourages pain.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:24] And I would expect even to really trying to make a conscious effort in your life to find safe people, people who can love you for who you are and try and build up this sort of circle of the family that you don't have, the way family kind of should be, how love should be. Yeah. Okay. How about. Sorry, why don't we go to Augustus?

Augustus [00:46:54] So, yeah, following that, I mean, I told my. I told my mom, like, at 14,

Ann [00:47:03] like,

Augustus [00:47:06] and it wasn't that she bullied me or anything, but it. It's kind of like, similar. Like, I just. Oh, I just kind of want to cry right now.

Ann [00:47:18] Yeah.

Augustus [00:47:18] I just.

Ann [00:47:19] None of my siblings have been particularly

Augustus [00:47:21] bad about it, but I mean, there's always been those certain things that, like, I know my parents occasionally text and use my dead name and it kind of hurts. And I'll see texts and I'll be like, you know, we went over this. I changed my name, like, a year and a half ago or year and some time ago. And I know that sometimes, like, they. I know they sometimes do it to my family. And I know my. My only living grandparent and I haven't had an actual conversation since I transitioned, even though we've been in the same room several times within feet of each other. And it's. It's mostly like, I want to, but it's just like, is it gonna be, like, so toxic for me to start that and then just like, hey, like, be completely invalidated. And it's. It's a hard give and take process. And then it's not the entire of the entirety of my mom's side, but, like, there's. Most of everyone is tbm and there's a large number of TBM cousins on my mom's side. And, I mean, I went to an Easter gathering. We kind of just do it every year mostly. My mom does it every year. And I wanted to talk to people. It's just like, I feel like I couldn't and I mostly sat alone. But I mean, it is kind of like an internal bully more like, because, like, they're not out outwardly, like, being a little bit, but not all the time. They're not all the time, like, just saying, hey, you're obviously like, why are you here? Because you're not one of us or something like that. But it definitely feels like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:12] Sure.

Augustus [00:49:15] Especially. Cause like sometimes like I was always. I would always talk to the guys and like, and I know that one of the husbands will be in the same room and he talk to me and it feels weird. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:34] Yeah.

Augustus [00:49:35] And then I mean, I got like sexually assaulted kind of. And I know, I mean, yeah, I did, but that was like a year ago. And it's like that has been really terrible thing. And I, like, I think this is the first time I've actually said anything about it. But don't announce everything on Facebook. Contrary to most people's beliefs. But that's been difficult. And it was because I was trans. And that's been the hardest part about it. It's like, oh, if I wasn't trans, like, this wouldn't have happened or like someone wouldn't have known.

Guest [00:50:19] Not.

Augustus [00:50:20] I wouldn't have been a target. So, yeah, there's lots of concerns.

Ann [00:50:27] Yeah.

Augustus [00:50:28] Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:29] Thank you, Augustus. How about you, Emmett?

Ann [00:50:36] I mean, I know that I could have it a lot worse. Somebody always has it worse. But just briefly because I came out publicly when I was 21 and I transitioned fairly quickly. And also throughout the years I overcompensated. I mean, I was, I was trying so hard to fit in that, you know, I did, I grew out my hair and I always did my makeup and I copied my friends mannerisms, tried to be as feminine as possible. I even raised my voice high, like really, really high to over feminize it. I mean, it was. It's really bad listening back and I'm just like, wow, I sound like I'm five. But I, I just overcompensated. And so when I came out and I started, you know, the process of socially transitioning and starting t. I got bombarded with messages from people from my mission, from people from back home, from my ward. Just saying, like, you're such a beautiful girl. Why would you do this? Why would you trust? Why would you change your body? Like, you're so beautiful, you know, just don't do this. And I'm just like, what does me being a pretty girl have anything to do with who I am inside? Like, and I've joked about this all the time. Like, what if I was, you know, an ugly girl? Would it have been easier? Like, I'm not doing this for you. I'm not doing this to make you feel comfortable. Like. And so I got, I got so many people telling Me, like, you just have the most wonderful curves, and your face is just gorgeous, and. And you. You know, you just have this gorgeous body. And I'm just like, okay, well, if you think I'm a beautiful girl, I'll be a beautiful guy, okay? But I'm gonna be true to who I am inside. And I think it didn't stop until they saw that I was serious, that I was, you know, a few months into my physical transition and some changes were becoming permanent. And they realized, oh, this is real. Like, he's not. This isn't a joke. It's not a phase. And so I've. You know, luckily it stopped. And then, you know, there's just been a few things, kind of like what Augustus was saying about, you know, going to family reunions. I went to a mission reunion recently that was really scary because the last time I went to a mission reunion, I had just come out as trans, and I hadn't even started transitioning yet. And so this time, here I am, you know, a year and a half on T. And it was hard because, you know, there were a few people who were very nice to me and, you know, talked to me and shook my hand and just asked me how life was going, that they said that I looked so happy, which I am. But then there were people where I would look over and they were, you know, pointing at me or, like, whispering to their spouse, and they were, like, eyeing me, and they'd see me look over, and then they quickly look away. And I just. I knew it was. You know, I knew what they were talking about me and that, you know, it's kind of like you're the exotic animal at the zoo. You know, it's. You don't fit in. But. But I mean, I know that it's a lot worse for a lot of other people, and. And it's violent physically and emotionally for other people. And I. I haven't really had to deal with a whole lot of that. And what I. When I have. They've been from complete strangers, like on YouTube, on my channel, on my videos, they're from strangers. So it's. But even then, it hurts, you know, I mean, you don't. You don't. There is a level of, you know, you don't feel safe, but it could be a lot worse.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:22] Yeah. Thank you, Emmett.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] So just what I heard. We oftentimes think about bullying as physical or sexual assault, and clearly that's part of the spectrum. But bullying can range anywhere from those more extreme physical acts to being ignored to being Left out to being ostracized, to being talked about, to being exoticized all the way to using someone's dead name to, you know, to just being ignored. It can be this very wide range, including microaggressions, and they're all very real. And it's not. I think it's. What I'm hearing is to think that just the physical assaults or the sexual assault is the worst form of bullying. My guess is that sometimes being ignored can actually be the most severe of all. And we need to broaden our range of understanding of what bullying is, because it's got a really wide range.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:36] Absolutely. And I even think, too, it's cumulative. There's a cumulative effect to it all adding up to. It's a lot bigger than even, you know, the summary of parts. Yeah.

Being Transgender Within the Broader LGBT Community

John Dehlin [00:55:51] So this next question again, comes from you guys, but I'll just. I'll give a little background. When I did my. My research for my dissertation, it did include LGBT people in the study. But when I started presenting the findings, all my findings were really focused around the LGB Mormon experience. I would never discuss anything that was sort of trans specific. And I just remember one time giving a presentation at the U of U, and somebody stopped me and they said, you keep saying lgbt, but I've not heard one thing relating to the T. And I just. I was like, what? Why? I'm trying to be one of the good guys. Why are you assaulting me? Like, come on, treat me kind here. I'm trying to do good. And then it took me a while to realize that when you say lgbt, but you really only talk about lgb, there are real problems with that. So my question is, you know, how is the T difference very different than the LGB experience? And help us understand why. To talk about, you know, to lump them all in, but then to ignore the T experience, why that can be hurtful or harmful. Anne, why don't we start with you on that one?

Emmett [00:57:09] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:10] Yeah.

Guest [00:57:11] This is.

Emmett [00:57:13] Don't feel bad, John, because a lot of CIS people make this mistake. So a lot of people get confused between the idea of gender identity and sexual attraction or your orientation. Some people think that the T shouldn't. Shouldn't go with the lgb. And it kind of gets complicated with trans, like, who are you attracted to? Because you can't assume who somebody is attracted to. It's completely different from gender identity, and most people don't understand that.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Thank you. Super important distinction. There can be a trans female attracted to females, a trans female attracted to males, a trans female who's asexual, a trans female who's attracted, who's bisexual. And same thing for. It's. It's just totally separate, and I just always lump that in.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:21] Yeah.

Emmett [00:58:21] And I would say I'm identify as a straight woman attracted to men.

Ann [00:58:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] And then biology, again, is its own component. So we lump biology, gender, and sexual attraction all in together, and they're completely separate things.

Emmett [00:58:42] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] Thank you.

Emmett [00:58:43] They're not so simple. It's a little more complex.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] Emmett, lumping the T in with the lgbt, what should we know or think about that?

Ann [00:58:53] It's hard. I think I know that there's a lot of other trans people out there who, if you identify a straight like me, you feel alienated from the LGBT community, because the LGB community looks at you and they're like, oh, so you're a straight man, but you don't fit in with us? Like, I've been to so many functions where it's like, it's an LGBT event, and now I pass as a man. So if I go, unless I'm wearing a T shirt that says I'm trans, nobody knows I'm trans. So everybody just assumes that I'm a gay man. So when I go and I say, well, I'm not a gay man. I'm a straight trans man still, they see me as a straight man, and then they're like, oh, so you're normal. Oh, you're gonna be in a heterosexual relationship. You're gonna be in a relationship with a girl. You don't fit in with us. Like, you're just trying to be normal. Go, you know, go away. And I've had people bully me about that, actually. So it's like, I don't feel like I have a place. Like, I fit in. Like, I'm, you know, I'm like, I'm one of you. But. But I don't. Unless I'm a gay trans guy or unless I'm just not trans, I don't fit in. Like, when I first started transitioning and obviously I looked like a girl. I mean, and everyone knew that I was dressing as a boy, like, transitioning, then everyone was like, oh, yeah, you're one of us. Our people come, you know. But, like, as soon as I started passing as a guy and I was like, oh, I'm attracted to women. They're just like, you don't belong here. And I know I'm not the only trans person who feels that way because I've talked to other people who feel that way, and it's just. It's just so weird. And I almost feel like the T just doesn't belong with the LGB community, because LGB is, like sexual orientation. T is gender identity. And then on top of T, then there's the lgb, which is, how do you. How what are you. Who are you attracted to? So, yeah, it's kind of crazy.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:58] I'm so glad you brought that out. Huh?

John Dehlin [01:01:01] And I think so many of us who are straight, cisgender, whatever, would just sort of say, oh, if you're. You're with a bunch of LGBT people, you're going to feel safe and everyone's going to be affirming. But that's.

Ann [01:01:13] Yeah, well, and that's like saying anything

John Dehlin [01:01:15] with a bunch of post Mormons. You're always gonna feel, yeah, yeah, that was true.

Ann [01:01:20] And, and, and for me, my. When I came out to my parents, they were like, okay, you're attracted to women and you're trans. Okay, well, why don't you just be a lesbian? And I'm like, because I'm not a girl who likes girls. I'm a boy who likes girls. I can't just be a lesbian. And so that's what a lot of people wanted me to do.

Augustus [01:01:36] It doesn't work like that.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] This is great. Thank you. Thank you, Augustus.

Augustus [01:01:45] Okay, so a few things. I totally echo that sentiment because I was at Pride, and I was. I was kind of, like, with a girl. And I remember someone looking at me and being all like, ugh, like, the heteros have, like, taken ours place. And I was. It was like. Like, it sucks because it's like I can no longer, like, if I date a girl, I can no longer, like, identify with the LGBT community, like, outwardly, I guess, because people see me as this straight guy. I mean, it doesn't help that I'm, like, almost nearly 6 foot. And normally trans guys are not tall or, like, they're. They're usually the height, like the average woman, kind of, like, span. So, like, the fact that I am six foot, it makes it very not obvious at all that I'm trans. And so I. I know that, like, it sucks. It almost. It does suck because, like, I have accepted myself as trans, and now that I know that, I'm kind of, like, losing my own community, too, because when other trans people don't see you as trans, it's kind of like, well, that is weird. But in terms of. I remember yesterday this even happened. This happened last night. There was someone. There was a trans girl at work, and I just like, I was like, oh, hey. Like, not someone working there, but like someone who came in and I just wanted to be all like, oh, hey. Like, I just wanted to say hi. But like, I smile and she like, kinda looked at me and she's like, like nervous. Like, obviously she couldn't tell that I was trans or anything, but it kinda sucks. But I know why the LGBT or LGB is in with a T. And that's because primarily people will tell their sexual identity first and it's easier to. Because it's less taboo now. And so like, Emmett, I mean, you. I know you came out as like, that you liked girls first, right?

Ann [01:04:01] I came out as gay before when I was 17.

Emmett [01:04:04] Yeah.

Augustus [01:04:05] So it makes a lot of sense that people first experience this sexual. Or maybe you realize it, but also like, people around you will realize that your sexual identity is different first. But so it kind of makes sense in that case because many people firstly identify as lgb, lgb, LG or B first. I didn't, I didn't come out as like gay or anything first because I do. I do like both or both all. Cause I'm pan. Like, I just like, don't. I can like anyone. That's what. That's kind of where I'm at. But I know that a lot of people have been all like, well, why transition when you still like guys? You could be like this straight female. But also it was hell. So it's, it's like, yeah, I see your point and that would have been great if I could have done that and survived, but the truth is I couldn't. I was, it was, it wasn't a possibility where I was at. And it still isn't Like, I couldn't have done that. I still couldn't do that. As much as that would be kind of weird to detransition at this point. Like, no, I'm not gonna do that. But yeah, so, I mean, I definitely feel like it still should be clumped in, like, even though a lot of people, like even just gay males sometimes don't get it. And I get that, that they don't get it because they don't have to experience it. So they have to learn about it too. But at the same time, it gives us a larger community to actually help us because, like, if it really was like 0.5% of the population trying to tell everyone about us, like, I doubt that we'd get a lot of traction or like any kind. So the fact that we have, like, allies. Who are these people? Who at least, like, at some point, we sometimes identified with. It makes sense, and I think it's helpful. Right?

John Dehlin [01:06:18] Right, Kimberly.

Guest [01:06:25] Echo, echo, echo. And I'm pointing to these different people on the screen. I echo everything you've all said. I'm kind of looking at this in a little different frame of reference now that I'm kind of becoming somebody that's vocal in this space. I. Wow. So many things. I actually am one of those people who thinks that the T should not be with the L, the G and the B. And I think that a lot of times that the. The community outside the lgbtq, to all those letters, that community that's outside of those letters, that community, when they rattle off, oh, lgbtq. And then all they talk about are the L, the B and the G. I'm like, why the hell are you talking about the T and the I and the Q? Why are you even using those letters when you're not even referencing those individuals? So I think it's super, super important that if you're going to say LGBTQ and then you only talk about the L or you only talk about the G or specifically, you only talk about the white gay male. Why are you using all this other language? Just say, today's topic is about gay white men of privilege that live and work in San Francisco, that have partners, that live in Pacific Heights, that work for Yahoo and Intel. And that's today's topic. Instead of, oh, we're going to talk about LGBTQI2 spirit and the P and the L and the Z and the Q and the I and the 1 and the 2 and the 3, and ignore them all and talk about the only the gay white man of privilege.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:05] Right.

Guest [01:08:06] I think we should be having conversations about black women of color. I think we should be having women of people of color who are intersex, that live in Kenya, that don't even have shoes, that can't even express their voices. So I really having a super, super hard problem when people gather under this LGBT umbrella and they ignore the other the T, they ignore the I and they ignore the Q. You know, what does queer mean? We even don't even talk about queer.

Ann [01:08:33] Yeah.

Guest [01:08:33] We use that letter in our conversation to talk about LGBTQ because we're told that's what we're supposed to say.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:40] Right?

Guest [01:08:41] So that's my super deep, long rant. I could talk about this clearly for hours.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:46] Wow. Yeah. So important.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] Thank you, Kimberly. Great stuff.

Guest [01:08:52] Just one more thing. It's interesting. When I transitioned, I did kind of a non. I did Kind of a non transition, an unannounced transition. And I kind of started to inhabit the space of the cisgender heterosexual female, which is largely how, you know, people perceive me. And so I have felt a lot of pushback from the trans community and especially the Mormon trans community, that I'm not one of them because I don't publicly shout from the rooftops. I'm one of you. I'm doing my own thing in my own way. I'm doing my own kind of form of activism and my own form of, you know, self care. And it's not that I'm trying to shun or dismiss those other people, but, you know, we all do our own thing. We all inhabit our own space. And that kind of pushback that I felt personally in the past is the main reason why I'm so thrilled to be taking part in this panel with Augustus and Ann and Emmett. Because the youth, the trans youth are the ones that are going to take care of me when I'm old and dying and I'm alone. I need those people that understand who I am and that the role and a different kind of role that I've played in the community. As I get older and as you guys get older, you know you're going to be championing trans youth voices. I hear Emmett wants to do that. I think Augustus wants to do that. Clearly, Anne is in this for the long haul. You know, we're going to be championing, you know, voices that are, that are younger than us for the rest of our lives. So I think that's super, super important to talk about as well.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:24] Totally super important.

John Dehlin [01:10:26] Thank you.

Attending Church as Your Authentic Self

Margi Dehlin [01:10:28] Okay, so the next thing we're kind of curious about is your experience within church when you first went feeling authentically you what that experience was like overall, how you felt and how you were treated. So if you wouldn't mind sharing about that a little bit. So could we start maybe. Could we start with you, Ann?

Emmett [01:10:58] Sure, I can start. So I had left the church for a period of time. I told my wife that I was no longer gonna be involved. I was no longer gonna go with them. I didn't want to do family home and evening family prayers. So I had actually left for about seven or eight years. Then when I started facing my gender identity, my wife made the suggestion, why don't you pick a ward somewhere and attend church as yourself? Authentic self. And I thought, am I allowed to do that? Will they boot me out? So I found the ward and nobody knew me. And so I went and I'm sure, they could all spot me, but

Ann [01:12:07] it

Emmett [01:12:08] was an amazing experience. I felt like this is how it should have been my whole life. And I. My mind was calm. I could feel the spirit. I wasn't crawling out of my skin, trying to run out like I would normally do. And, yeah, that's kind of how I came back to church. I came back as myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:42] Wow.

Emmett [01:12:43] Of course, kind of got more complicated with attending with my wife later. But that's a story for another time.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] But right now, you attend with your wife?

Emmett [01:12:55] Yes, I attend our home ward with my wife.

Ann [01:12:59] Wow.

Emmett [01:13:00] Daughter. Wow.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] That's amazing.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:03] It is amazing.

John Dehlin [01:13:05] I know. There's a huge story behind that.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:07] Yeah.

Emmett [01:13:08] Yeah. I don't think we have time for that.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] Of course.

Emmett [01:13:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] That's amazing.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:16] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:18] How about you, Augustus?

Augustus [01:13:23] Okay. So the first time I attended church as myself was, like, the Sunday right after the policy came about. So, yeah, that all happened the same time because, like, it was very interesting. I got home from BYU the same week that that all happened or about the same week. So I had come back the Wednesday before the policy thing. And then I know that the Halloween was that Saturday, and that I met Wendy Montgomery the day before the policy change. So that was very interesting to know that this all happened. And it was kind of like, that's been my hold up on religion for a little while. It was like, hey, this all, like, couldn't be coincidence. Like, you know, I was, like, protected and saved. Because, like, I think had I been at BYU at that point, I probably would have, like, yeah, I probably would

Ann [01:14:21] have not been here.

Augustus [01:14:24] But. So, yes, I went to a friend's ward that week because I was not gonna go with the YSA I was supposed to be going to. And occasionally did go. But, like, the summer prior, I pretty much, like, drove there and would hang out in the parking lot and not go because I was just like, I don't want to be in a dress. I don't want people to see me in a dress, and I don't want that. But going to church not in a dress was a completely different experience for me because, like, I know that that's been mostly, like. The problem was that I could not focus on what people would say were actually saying. It was just mostly, like, in my head, like, I. I can't deal with this.

Ann [01:15:09] Like, I.

Augustus [01:15:10] It doesn't seem like it would be a big deal, like just a piece of clothing, but it is. It's like. It's. Because it represents, like, something greater. And it's like I'm representing myself as something that's, you know, with a dress, not real. Like, this person is just not the person that I am. Whereas, like, the first week that I could show up as Augustus, it was, like, completely different. And I mean, again, I don't know where I'm at with religion anymore, but if there is such thing as the spirit, I definitely could feel it by being myself at church. And I feel like, when. If people are gonna say that, like, oh, being trans is unnatural or like, any. Any kind of, like, people person in the Morin faith who doesn't, like, get it. Just that experience alone and being able to finally feel the spirit dressed as myself was just, like, so validating that I was just like. That was. That was my answer. Like, I started t fairly soon after I came out fairly soon after and then started T within. But that was. That was basically my answer for that. And so, yeah, that was great.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:42] What an experience.

John Dehlin [01:16:43] When you say, did you say started T? And did that mean testosterone?

Augustus [01:16:47] Yeah, yeah. Sorry. So, I mean, like, so November 8th was that Sunday? Because I remember all these dates. And then I came out on the 21st of that same month. And then I started till December 22nd, so, like, all in there. It was very much a fun journey.

John Dehlin [01:17:06] Okay, great. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:10] Perfect. Okay, how about Emmett?

Ann [01:17:15] So I. Yeah, I ended up making a video on it. And it was emotional. I went to church. I went to a family ward in Ogden for the first time after. Let's see. I. I moved to Ogden in August, came out publicly the end of August, and then it was that next Sunday. That was like, the first Sunday of September. Or that last weekend in August, a month before I started t testosterone. That was when I went. And I went in, like, I went in the worst, like, suit pants and, like, this sweater vest.

Augustus [01:18:03] And, like, I just. It was. Oh, my gosh.

Ann [01:18:05] And I had this awful haircut. But I. I mean, it's. It's so funny because back then I thought that I passed. Like, I was like, no one. Oh, I'll have to send you guys pictures. Like, I thought, like, oh, I look good. No one's gonna even be able to tell. Like, I'll just lower my voice a little bit. It was awful. But I felt confident.

Guest [01:18:28] And.

Ann [01:18:30] And so I walked in there and I just. I mean, even though, you know, like, there were, you know, you get those looks, like, you know, I knew people were gonna be like, oh, what's this girl doing in boy clothes? You know, But I mean, honestly, I had, like, as soon as I walked in the door. Somebody just came up and, like, shook my hand and welcomed me to the ward. And like. And I. I was just. I. And like, Gus was saying, just sitting there and not having to focus on, like, what I was wearing anymore. Just like, being like, this feels so right. Like, finally I'm wearing the clothes. Even though it's a sweater vest, I'm wearing the clothes that I want to wear. And like, I'm sitting in church as a guy and, like, I could focus on the message and feel the spirit. And it just. It felt so good. And like, even though, you know, I've always been very self conscious and like, always, I always. I just. I tend to care about what people think about me. And I'm a people pleaser and. And I'm trying to get better at that. But, you know, it was scary because I was like, you know, what are people gonna think? But this was a completely different word. So I didn't, like, know anybody, but it was, you know, I said in my video that, you know, I don't care about what people think of me. The only opinion that matters is God's, and I just care what he thinks of me and that. And it's just. It's the best. It was the best. It was honestly one of the best days ever. I just felt the spirit so strong, and I was just like, confirming, like, yes, this is how you are supposed to. To be. This is how you're supposed to go.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:03] This is you. Wow. So healing, healing. Largely healing stories so far with attending church for the first time. How about you, Kimberly?

Guest [01:20:16] The first time I attended any church function as my authentic self, I was dressed completely in white and sitting by 25 or 30 other women and looking across the aisle at 25 or 30 other men, also dressed in white temple. The second or the next time I attended a church function as my true self was when I was speaking with my former bishop about me resigning from the church. So I never got the chance to do that.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:58] Yeah.

Guest [01:21:01] But I will say this. I will echo Augustus's sentiments precisely 100% the same as mine. When you are there as your authentic self, you are validated in ways that other people have no comprehension of. It's a level of a spiritual connection that doesn't exist anywhere else in the church. It's a level of inner validation. It's a level of external validation that is not comprehendable. It was very powerful. And I attended the temple three or four times as my authentic self, and then I resigned.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:46] Yep. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] Just very, very quickly, I think There's a lot of us that just, you know, let's just say from the post Mormon perspective, well, the LDS Church isn't safe for transgender individuals, and so they should just stop believing and get out. That's sort of its own brand of offensive and invalidating. And then there's the other brand of invalidating and offensive, which is maybe the true believing perspective. It's just like you can't have a spiritually affirming experience as a trans person.

Ann [01:22:24] You.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] You can't pray and have God tell you that you're okay and that he loves you. Like, that's gotta be Satan or your self delusion. And both are super awful and offensive and invalidating. And, you know, you want to do some harm, take away someone's hope, you know, hope or their spirituality when that's really meaningful to them. One of the papers that's never been written that I'll just keep extending an offer for. In our study of LGBT Mormons, something like 45% reported receiving divine spiritual affirmation that God loves and accepts them for who they are, whether they're gay, lesbian, bisexual, or trans. And that that was like, in many instances, what kept them from killing themselves. And I just think it's just really easy as true believers or as post Mormons non believers, to be completely invalidating. And I think that's its own to the spiritual life and beliefs of transgender people and of LGB people. And I think that's its own form of bullying and its own form of violence. That's kind of what I'm feeling as we talk about this. So I just had to.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:46] Yeah, glad you did.

What the Church Could Do Better for Transgender Members

John Dehlin [01:23:48] Really quickly pick one thing. We've got about 20 minutes left, and we've got like, we've been through a fourth of the questions. Although I don't regret what we've covered. I think it's been brilliant. If each of you could give one thing, you'd like the LDS Church, the Mormon Church, to do or say, what would be the one thing? And again, there's so much. So pick judiciously and Kimberly, I'm gonna do you the disservice of having you go first. What would be. And each of you can come up with one thing, come up with two or three. So if somebody else says your thing, you've got a backup. But, Kimberly, what would your thing be?

Guest [01:24:25] I need a member of the first presidency or a quorum of the 12 to speak to transgender people at conference over the pulpit in Sunday morning session and say, we love you and we don't know where you fit, but we want you, and we're going to try to figure out a place for you. Dallin Oaks was asked about this in 2015, and he that the LDS Church had lots of teaching left to do, and. I'm waiting, Dallin. Let's hear it. I'm listening. That's it.

John Dehlin [01:24:55] You're saying prophets, prophesy, seers. See?

Guest [01:24:57] Let's hear it. That's exactly right. If you're going to call yourself a prophet, let's hear some prophesying specifically to transgender people.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:25:05] If you're a revelator, start revealing.

Ann [01:25:07] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] Okay, great. Emmett, what would you add?

Ann [01:25:14] This question automatically made me tear up. I. I pray for the day that a member of the quorum of the 12 or the first Presidency will either, you know, case by case or collectively say to transgender people, we recognize you as the gender that you are with the spirit of discernment. You know, we believe that if you say that your spirit is male, your spirit is male. If your spirit is female, your spirit is female. I. Because I believe that if they do really have the spirit of discernment, they could tell me more than I can tell myself that my spirit is male. And I want to be recognized as the man that I am. Not for the body parts that I was given on earth due to science and biology, but I want to be recognized for my spirit, which is perfect and which was given to me by God.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:27] Love that.

John Dehlin [01:26:28] Beautiful. Thank you, Emmett.

Augustus [01:26:30] Augustus or Gus, either one works. So I kind of echo that. Like, hey, if you're really a prophet, like, you need to do some prophesying and tell me what's up. And if you have that spirit of discernment and can realize that, like, all these transgender people who transition are no longer killing themselves and no longer in that place of, like, I'm gonna kill myself because of how terrible, like, this disassociation between my body and spirit mind is. Like, if you can recognize that and then give some, like, some sort of doctrine or something to just go off of so that, like, we don't have to play bishop roulette and, like, hey, this bishop's good. And this bishop will, like, let me go to church as myself. But, you know, this bishop has told me that it would be chaos if I were to come to church as Augustus, and that actually happened. Like, my currently. My current bishop, he's a godsend. Like, he's great. And I feel bad because I haven't been to church, but that's mostly because of me, because, like, I need to figure out where I'm at. And I felt like taking a break from church would be the best place for me to do that. But my previous bishop, a year ago, he said, like, he told me that in a meeting of the bishops and stake presidents in the Arizona Mesa area that one of them brought up that there was a transgender male to female in this case and what they should do in regards to letting them come to church. And I think it was Clayton or something, who isn't even on the 12. I'm really not sure of his place. But also I would say to the 12, like, hey, you best get some sort of, like, foundational doctrine or something out there so that you don't have people, like, going around saying, like, oh, yeah, trans women dressing as their preferred gender at church is gonna be chaos. Like, you can't have people saying that who represent the church and who are telling bishops that this is the case, like, because that gets echoed to all trans people, even though, like, nothing was happening. Like, we're not, like, trying to create a political statement in church. It's really not that it's got nothing to do with a political statement. It's like, hey, I found solace in the church and I still wanted to be here. Can I still be here? But only some bishops will say yes, and only some people will say yes. And then I think that just coming out with some sort of, like, hey, you know, you need to, like, let these people at least come to church in how they want to come to church, because that's how most people, like, say, oh, just come to church as you are. Like. But echoing that for trans people so that, like, there can be less discrimination and less hate in general would be very good. Just like, it would cause more acceptance or at least, like, cause more tolerance to the idea. And I think that's really important.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] So better training of leaders,

Augustus [01:30:19] just education all around and just knowing that it's a thing and just to be tolerant of it, because we should love one another, because that's the primary goal of the church, after all. Like, to love and to find happiness. Anyway.

Emmett [01:30:35] Yeah.

Augustus [01:30:37] My two cents.

John Dehlin [01:30:38] Love it. Thank you. Thank you, Anne.

Emmett [01:30:44] So I think I'm going to chicken out and use my safe word.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] Okay.

Emmett [01:30:50] What was it? Corn swabble. I don't know. What safe word did we.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:56] That one works.

Emmett [01:30:57] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] Is that just because this is a very sensitive thing for you?

Emmett [01:31:05] Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of under a magnifying glass, and what I say and what I do is. Yeah, yeah. So I just kind of want to love it, play it safe with this

Margi Dehlin [01:31:24] question and absolutely, we support that.

Ann [01:31:28] Thank you.

Emmett [01:31:29] I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] That's what we would want and that says a lot.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:33] So thank you.

Augustus [01:31:36] Really quick, can I say two things that people have like asked? It's not complete heresy to transition. It's like heresy or something. The only thing that is necessary discipline is having a transsexual operation is what it says in the handbook. So like not necessarily hormones. We have no idea. Because like nobody wants to say anything about, to trans people about anything. But the other thing is Emmett can't get the priesthood, nor can I, because we're always going to be on the church records as female. And there's no way to change that. Really. Trust me, I would if I could because I really don't want to be in the Relief Society lists because I really want to change that so that the people in my ward just don't automatically know that there's something.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:31] Yeah.

Augustus [01:32:33] But anyway, there's. That's two things that people have kind of like mentioned in the comments.

John Dehlin [01:32:38] So there's no church policy to accommodate the changing of one's gender identity.

Augustus [01:32:46] Yeah. And I think it's like kind of a liability too because like, I mean, I'm legally male and I, and I feel like really like kind of weird that I'm on these like Release Society records and I don't want people to know that. Like, I don't want someone to find out and then like have my contact information because I can't hide that from

John Dehlin [01:33:06] my ward violation your privacy and your dignity.

Augustus [01:33:11] Yeah. And then, and like again, I know that, I know one or two guys have said like, oh, I don't see like your name on priesthood. Like, hey, are you not a member of the church? Like, why do you come? Like, because I'll occasionally come to like some of the non churchy functions. Like, mostly because I'm a starving college student. But yeah. But I'll occasionally. And I have a ton of friends in the church still and specifically the ward that I'm in, so I'll occasionally go and like people will be all like, hey, like, I know, I know you're kind of in our ward, but you're kind of not because you're not in priesthood role. And so that's like really hard. So like, where do I even start? Because I would just like, yeah, we could just move my name to like the other side. It would be great. Like, have some. Hey, like I can explain to someone if I want to Explain to them and, like, not have it be the talk of the ward slash steak if it becomes that way anyway. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:13] So important.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Emma, were you gonna say something really quick and then.

Ann [01:34:17] Well, yeah, just real quick. Well, I'll let. I'll let Ann go first because I kind of lost my train of thought.

John Dehlin [01:34:26] Is there a female, like, you want to get rid of the priesthood? Do you get to still use it? Like, what's that like for you? And then whatever you were going to say, too, but whatever.

Emmett [01:34:35] I'll just add on to Gus's comment. I still carry the priesthood. I still hold the priesthood. I don't use it mainly because I don't feel I should have it. But there is no way to, other than excommunication. There's no way to. I mean, I'll always be a priesthood holder.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] Well, implications.

Ann [01:35:05] And then I was just gonna. I was just gonna say, like, kind of with what Gus was saying about, you know, the legal stuff, like, my name has legally been changed in church records. On my church membership record is legally now Emmett Michael Claren, but they won't change my legal gender marker. And that's just kind of like I. It's just. It's frustrating, you know, it's like, why will you recognize my legal name but you won't recognize my legal gender? And. And so it's just. It's. It's like just. I mean, do we wait for more revelation or what? What do we do? We try and escalate it, but what if we make things worse, you know? And. And I feel. And I feel like a lot of trans Mormons are in this position right now where we feel like we're just in limbo, waiting. We're just waiting. And I don't know if we're waiting for a policy. I don't. I don't know. I'm not even sure if I want a policy because, you know, it could end up being really bad for us. So it's like, do we want something or do we not want something? Do we want something that's rushed and just quickly put together for, you know, PR purposes, or do we really want to just wait? Like, it's just we're in limbo right now, and it's the hardest place to be.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:10] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:36:13] And really quickly. Is it frustrating for you to be on priesthood roles and elders quorum and all that sort of stuff? Oh, I'm asking you questions when you didn't want to talk about that.

Emmett [01:36:28] No, it's okay. I didn't want to go deeply into what I would change. But. I don't attend third hour, so mostly I just go to sacrament meeting and head home. Some days I'll. If I'm feeling up to it, I'll attend Gospel Doctrine. And there's a lot of people in my ward who are very accepting, and they make an effort to make me feel welcomed and loved, which, I don't know, is kind of. Yeah, yeah. That it helps.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:16] Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad that came out, that whole thread discussion.

John Dehlin [01:37:26] These are things you. Is this as a privileged cisgender person you just don't think about at all?

Margi Dehlin [01:37:32] It's really.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] I'm just like. I'm kind of in shock. Thank you for educating us when you should have done the work and shedding light on us.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:43] Okay, so we're kind of coming close to the end. Should I ask that one or should

John Dehlin [01:37:49] I. Yeah, yeah, That's a good one.

The Most Difficult Parts of the Journey

Margi Dehlin [01:37:50] So as a final maybe question or are you gonna. You could maybe follow it up.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] I think we should do these two.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:59] Those two to end.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] Which do you want to do?

Margi Dehlin [01:38:01] Should I start with the different one? I'll just start with what have been the most difficult and challenging parts of your journey? And we can start. Why don't we start with Kimberly this time?

Guest [01:38:19] The difficult and most challenging part of my journey. Today, Right here, right now. And tomorrow, the answer will be tomorrow. And the next day, the answer will be that day. Every day is the greatest challenge of my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:34] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:38:36] Powerful.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:37] Yeah. How about you, Augustus?

Augustus [01:38:44] I would say, like, it wasn't transitioning, like, in itself. It was the fact that, like, I was a Mormon beforehand. That was, like, the hardest part. Like, it really wasn't accepting myself. It wasn't. It wasn't, like, even having, like, my friends or family or, like, work except me or anything. It was actually, like, the church. And that was, like. It still is, like, a thing in the back of my mind. Like, I don't. I don't plan on, like, turning in my papers and resigning anytime soon, if ever. That's just not, like, right now what I plan to do.

Guest [01:39:27] But

Augustus [01:39:30] definitely, like, the hardest part is the church aspect of it. Like, hands down, for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:40] I have to think that's in part because it's supposed to be God, and it's supposed to be people led by God. And how do you have a relationship with God when there seems to be such violence or apathy or.

Augustus [01:39:54] Oh, exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:56] It amplifies it. Amplifies it.

Augustus [01:39:58] Yeah. Pretty much exactly.

Ann [01:40:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:02] Makes sense. Emmett.

Ann [01:40:07] The hardest part of my journey has been that I have always been a true believing Mormon and I still am. And what I've always wanted was a temple marriage to a woman. And that's something that I want more than anything in the world. To be recognized as a man the church and to be able to do everything that a man, a worthy priesthood holder can do. And I have this thing where apparently I just, I, I am, I, this is embarrassing, but I fall for other, you know, true believing Mormon girls and that's what I want. I want to. I want active girl in the church. And I, that's just, that's at this point it almost seems impossible. So it's, that's what really hurts. And it's the hardest thing for me is because I just. That's what I want.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:01] Yeah, I get that. Totally makes sense.

Ann [01:41:05] Kind of out of reach right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:07] Yeah. How about you, Ann?

Emmett [01:41:14] Well, let's see. What should I choose?

Margi Dehlin [01:41:21] Or just list a few. I mean, don't give.

Emmett [01:41:23] A few.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:24] Yeah. That are like feeling heavy and hard. Really difficult.

Emmett [01:41:30] It's difficult staying married to a woman. I think it would be a lot easier if I wasn't married to a woman because at church we're seen as a lesbian couple, but on the records and everything, we're husband and wife. So that's really difficult. And just family in general.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:01] Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you.

What Not to Say to a Transgender Person

John Dehlin [01:42:11] I have a question that we're gonna close with. It is a follow on to the question Margi just asked. But I. There's one I want to interject. Is that okay, sweetie? It'll be what are things not to say? And there's a. We could do a whole hour on this. But if you had to pick each of you one or two things not to say or not to do, let's just list them really quickly because there's just some basic things.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:40] Education.

John Dehlin [01:42:41] Kimberly, we talked about this a bit yesterday, but each of you list a couple things. What are things you just don't say casually or disrespectfully to a trans person? Emma, why don't we start with you?

Ann [01:42:56] Well, I know that everyone's gonna pick up because there's a lot, but I. Something that I just, I would just would like people to stop saying to me. And I know a lot of people would like them to stop. Is stop saying that God doesn't make mistakes. Because we know that God doesn't make mistakes. He's perfect. He's God, otherwise he wouldn't be God. I'm not a mistake. Science makes mistakes. The world, biology makes Mistakes. But God doesn't make mistakes. So stop trying to use that as an excuse to get to me, because it's. It's not gonna work. I am not a mistake.

John Dehlin [01:43:32] Wow, Kimberly.

Guest [01:43:36] You know, I kind of am offended when people say things like, oh, you look so good, or, I never would have known, or, you know, you make such a great woman. Like, this is the exact opposite. It really plays into this idea of passing privilege and trans misogyny and this idea that we're out to deceive people, that our goal in life is to fool the general public into believing that we are something other than we truly are. So I really like the idea that people will quit saying, oh, I never would have known. So let that trans individual or that intersex person be who they are without pigeonholing them into society's views of normativity or binary gender roles. Let them just exist on their own terms.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:31] So important, Gus.

Augustus [01:44:37] I hate hearing, oh, like, just the fact that I used to be a girl. Like, I think there was never, like, a real point where I was really a girl. Like, I look back at those photos and I'm like, yeah, I tried. Like, I would date myself. Like, probably. Like, I wasn't unattractive. Like, I could see myself. Like, I was definitely attractive. But, like, the fact that is that I was never, like, really that person. Like, I mean, when I say that when first transitioning, like, you say that you're like, you're not gonna change. Like, essentially, your personality is all the same, but also, you're finally becoming your authentic self. So, like, this is who I really am on the outside. Like, who I really am on the inside, but on the outside now. And so, like, it's this weird, but it's this weirdo. Like, yes, but no, but, like, so I'm the same person, but also, like, I was never really that girl person. And if people could just stop saying, like, oh, well, he used to be a girl. Like, don't ever out me to anyone. Like, it should be my job to out me. I know I am very open on the Internet, but that doesn't mean, like, that you can tell everyone in real life that, oh, yeah, he's trans. Like, it should be my job, and it should not be your job. That's big. That's. That's something I'm like, I hate it's because. Well, I mean, like, I don't hate that people, like, tell other people. I just hate it when it's like, yeah, they. That they think it's Their job too. And it's like, hey, just. If it really becomes an issue, just send them my way. Like, let me explain it. Or, like, one of my. Like, my coming out video. Like, link that. Or, hey, like my YouTube or.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:31] Right. Yeah, but it should come from you.

Augustus [01:46:35] Yeah, but please let it come from me, because at the end of the day, I'm the one that knows myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:41] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] Thanks, Gus. Ann.

Emmett [01:46:48] So somebody asked me once, how long have you been transgender? And I knew what they meant. They meant, how long ago did you transition? And so that one was really weird. There was also, he thinks he's a girl. There's so many things wrong with that comment. And finally, the last one is, have you had the surgery yet? And I don't know about any of you, but I don't go around asking people, you know, what their genitals look like. So unless you're really close with me, that's not really okay to ask.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:43] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:44] Yeah.

Augustus [01:47:44] Yeah.

Ann [01:47:46] With what Anne has just said, like, if you're gonna ask me about my genitals, then I'm gonna. Like, then that means that it's okay for me to ask you about yours. Like, you don't ask people that. Just.

John Dehlin [01:47:58] That's.

Ann [01:47:59] That's. That's a very personal thing. Like, if you wouldn't ask your size. Yeah, exactly. Like, if you wouldn't ask. Like, if you wouldn't ask a cisgender person about what's going on down there, then what makes it okay? Person, you know, don't ask me to see it. Don't ask me. And I've gotten that. I've gotten asked. Like, can I see it? What does it look like?

Guest [01:48:17] I'm not gonna show you.

Ann [01:48:18] Like, who. Just don't. Just don't do that. That's one way to really offend a trans person. And also, with what Gus was saying, do not ask their old. Like, what was your old name? Like, you know, can I see a picture of what you used to look like? Like, unless somebody really wants to share that with you, they're trying to move on, because, again, that's not really who they were. It's part of their life, but that's not who they are now.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:41] Right?

Ann [01:48:41] So.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:48:43] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:46] So good. Thank you all. And there's much more, but if we can start there, that's really. That's really important.

Augustus [01:48:53] Two more things. Don't say tranny and, like, don't say tranny, period. And then transgender, like, it doesn't have an S on the end or an ed. Like, it's a adjective. Like it's a transgender person. And, like, so it's just offensive sometimes or all the time, basically, if you put like, oh, those transgenders. Like, that's offensive. And then like.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] Or he's transgendered. He's.

Augustus [01:49:18] Yeah, like. And like, it's like, yeah, I'm a transgender person. I'm a person. Like, remember?

Emmett [01:49:28] Also, there's other ways that people try and, you know, find out if you've had surgery. They ask, you know, have you transitioned completely or things like that. And I mean, I know what you mean. I know what you're getting at. So just. Because if you ask at a more subtle. You're still asking, right?

John Dehlin [01:49:52] Love it. Well, Kimberly, I would just say to

Guest [01:49:59] the person who wants to become educated that if they want to ask a question, they should be prepared to only ask questions that they would feel comfortable being asked back to themselves.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:10] Beautiful. Beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:50:12] Love it. That's. That's beautiful. And I. And I want to put up some resources about how we can become more educated. So if you guys can send to Cody or Amy, maybe some. Some links to. Or some books or some videos, some websites, I'd love to provide some resources for people to become more educated as well. But that's so great. It's just a kind of a golden rule. Don't ask things you wouldn't want to ask to yourself. Love it. I want to close with kind of a hopeful question. What have been the most positive or rewarding parts of your journey? And we keep coming to you last, so we're gonna ask you to go first this time. So what have been some of the most positive, rewarding parts of your journey? And this will be how we'll end today. But I don't think in any way we've covered all the topics, so I think maybe this deserves at least one more panel, if not a new podcast called something around Mormon Stories, the Transgender Journey or something. But I think there could be a whole podcast telling stories of transgender individuals.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:30] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:51:30] So let's think about that. But, Ann, what have been maybe one or two of the most positive, rewarding parts of your journey?

Most Rewarding Parts of Transition and Closing Reflections

Emmett [01:51:37] Yeah, I agree. We've only really just scratched the surface here with this one, but it's. It's great. Thank you for having me. The most rewarding parts probably has been my relationship with God has improved a lot. For a while. I was very angry at him for doing this to me. And although my relationship has got a lot better, I mean, I'm still working on it. I Have testimony that I'm a daughter of God and that he loves me just how, how I am. Also the other part is all of the supportive people in my life and my neighborhood friends who really make it easier to make it through the day. So yeah, that's been the best part.

John Dehlin [01:52:53] Beautiful, Gus.

Augustus [01:52:59] So I just have like this big personality and like I'm very. I know myself very well and so that I know that had I been born like this CIS male, I would have very much been that person that didn't understand anyone. Just been very much like my upbringing would have me and that I would just be like not tolerant of anyone. I'd be like, why are there poor people? Like, come on, do some business. Like, I would have, I would have been that way though, like that. I think the best part of this, besides from like having this awesome community that like everyone kind of just is trying to be like understanding of one another but that like realizing that I have grown tremendously and I have definitely been a better person because of this, even though it's been terribly hard and you know, like almost killed myself a couple times. You know, it's. It's a journey and it's been with it worth it.

John Dehlin [01:54:15] So the wisdom and the depth of what it's done for your own perspective and soul. Love it. Emmett.

Ann [01:54:26] For me, the most rewarding thing has just been I. I feel like I have more of a purpose now because every time somebody that I don't know messages me and says that, you know, you've given me hope, you helped me keep going. You know, I'm a trans Mormon too, and I have no idea what to do. And you know, you helped me so much and I'm able to give advice like that that it gives me more of a purpose and it gives me more of like, you know, you need to stay alive and you need to keep going and you need to, you know, really take care of yourself because are people now who are depending on you and relying on you. And you know, I'm trying to be the person that I needed when I was 14 and trying to take my life for the first time. I am trying to be that person for another younger version of myself who needs that support, who doesn't have it, who doesn't know how to be trans and Mormon or trans and Christian or just trans in general, you know, and. And so just knowing that I'm, you know, kind of like when I was a missionary, you know, if you can save one soul, you know, how great will be your joy. Just helping One person, one transgender individual. That's just. That's everything to me, and that's what I want to do with the rest of my life.

Augustus [01:55:40] So, side note, Emmett was kind of that person for me. Even though we, like, transitioned months apart, he was definitely like that person for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:50] I love that.

John Dehlin [01:55:51] Love it. Beautiful. So sense of purpose and meaning.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:57] All right, Kimberly, bring us home.

Guest [01:56:01] Well, I'm at a different stage in my life. I'm a parent. So for me, the best part of this journey has been able to arrive at today and having a healthy, loving relationship with my children. That has been the miracle in my life. And a lot of things kind of led up to that being a reality. I honor their path. They know I honor them and love them unconditionally, and they're learning how to do that with me. And that ability for my children to be that type of person speaks largely to how we were able to parent. To co parent them when I was married. So I owe a great deal of respect and honor to my former wife in seeing how my children have turned out today. And that, in turn, allows me to have a relationship with them. So that's the hopeful part of this for me.

John Dehlin [01:57:06] Love it. Love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:12] Well, I don't know, Marg. If you have any closing comments, I'll make one. And if you want to add something, please do. I'll just say that, you know, I always loved being Mormon, and I always loved what people refer to as spirituality. Whenever there could be an amazing choir or Mormon tabernacle choir, a great video or a youth conference testimony meeting, and I felt, quote, the spirit, that was always just what I was going for and what I loved. And there's a. You know, maybe there's a perception that once you leave the church that. That that sort of thing is gone. And I just want to say to all four of you today that even though I'm out of the church, and even though my life's very different now, my beliefs are different, I want to thank you for giving me truly sacred experience today. And what I mean by that is, I don't know in the past 20 years when I've felt so grateful, so humbled, so inspired in a conversation. And I mean that very sincerely. And I'm not trying to be overly complimentary, but this has been a sacred, beautiful, powerful experience for me, and I've learned so much. And I just want to thank all four of you for giving me that experience. And my wife's crying.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:40] Yeah,

Emmett [01:58:43] sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:45] It's what I do.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] She cries for both of us.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:51] I was gonna say the exact same thing. Just it felt sacred, sacred space today. And thanks for creating that. Thanks for. I mean, absolute beauty and truth and strength in everything you shared. It's just been an absolute privilege. And I know it's the beginning of a conversation, and I want to continue it. I want to honestly talk. There's so much more to explore, so I hope we can have that. And thanks for being willing to kind of bare your souls today.

Emmett [01:59:25] Thanks both of you. I appreciate the opportunity.

Closing Remarks and Credits

John Dehlin [01:59:30] All right, so a couple things to close. We want to thank Cody Layton and Amy. Amy Grubbs for making all this possible. They do all the work behind the scenes at the Open Source Foundation. When you guys donate to the Open Stories foundation, it's to the mission of the foundation, but it very much supports a staff that, again, coordinates and makes so much of this possible. From the editing to the. To the social media to the video production to the scheduling, to the strategy. There's so much that goes in. And I just want to thank Cody and Amy. I want to thank each of you as panelists. I want to thank everyone who's tuned in, tuned in today. Please spread the word. Please share. If you love this program, please share it. Please. Like our page, Mormon stories or Mormon Transitions, please share the podcast with people you think would be benefit from it. Again, thanks to all those who donate to make this possible. If you don't donate and you love this stuff, please donate. It makes all the difference. Just $10 a month can. Can keep us going. Want to want to just express our love and gratitude, everyone, please feel free to comment when we post this on the podcast. Please feel free to comment, make suggestions. Please email us if there's more that we need to talk about or do we just love your feedback and we're just grateful for the privilege it is to be able to have these conversations and to get your support. So we love all you guys. Thanks for supporting us. Please tune in again for another episode. Again, we'll be sharing Kimberly Anderson's interview soon after we finish our series on interviews with general authorities. We've got one or two more things to share there, and then we'll be at least doing two more interviews with transgender people. And we're excited to be sharing that as well, but in no way do we want that to be the end of this conversation. So thanks, everyone, again. Love you guys. Please tune in again. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see all you guys hopefully again soon. Take care, everybody. Sure. Love you. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Guest [02:01:58] Other sources Cease to make me whole when with a wounded heart, anger or

Margi Dehlin [02:02:15] malice

Guest [02:02:18] I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.