Introduction and Missouri Background

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 98

Guest [00:00:00] Foreign. Come, come, ye Saints no toil nor labor fear, but joy when your way. Cold heart to.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Well, Morris Thurston, let's, let's turn a bit and talk about Joseph Smith and some of his legal battles during the Nauvoo years. Okay, But I think, but I think it might make sense for our listeners to sort of give just a high level bit of context, because the truth is there are a lot of Mormons who just don't know basic Mormon history. So I'm going to give my best little narrative of what leads to Nauvoo, and then you can either correct me or add or just sort of take off from there historically. But, but as I understand it, you know, the church moved from New York into the Kirtland and Missouri areas. And while Missouri showed a lot of promise and was supposed to be, you know, Zion and the place that we would all gather things in, Missouri didn't go so well. And there are lots of reasons for that. But over time, we began being persecuted by the Saints of Missouri. And at some point, the governor of Missouri, Lilburn Boggs, actually apparently issued an extermination order giving people the license or the authority to actually kill Mormons if they so felt it necessary. They were driven out of their homes, driven further west. As I understand it, several standoffs happened and Joseph was incarcerated at some point. And eventually this led to a lot of tension on both sides. And so while Missourians were busy persecuting and running us out and trying to kill us, we were trying to defend ourselves. And this is where we get into that sort of cloudy period where, where this group called the Danites sort of emerged, which was, as I understand it, sort of a vigilante thing. I don't know if there's any direct connections to Joseph Smith's knowledge or approval of it, but it was definitely this group that said, we're not going to take this anymore, and if we have to take justice into our own hands, we're going to protect the church by any means necessary. And as I understand it, Porter Rockwell, who becomes maybe a potential figure in the Nauvoo years, was definitely seemed to be implicated in that group of the Danites. And so let's just sort of as that as a context, the Saints eventually are, you know, kicked out of Missouri. They go to Illinois and they start creating Nauvoo, you know, with a hope to start over. So having given that sort of background. Correct, where I messed up, add whatever you want to, or begin talking about how the church sort of grew if you want to talk the charter about the charter a bit that John C. Bennett helped us create, but take over from here.

Morris Thurston [00:03:24] Well, maybe just a little bit more of a chronological putting into place, because I think the way that you told the story is a little misleading. Yes, in Missouri, they did run into tough times. And particularly to put a date on it, 1838 is when Joseph and Sidney arrived on the scene from Kirtland. And about that same time, a number of longtime church members, people in leading positions, were basically disfellowshipped or excommunicated from the church. And this included Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, and W.W. phelps, who was the editor of the paper there. So these were key individuals. This is when the Danites began. And the Danites were not at that point, as I understand it, their goal was to kind of purge the church of the dissenters. It wasn't so much the Missourians that they were concerned with at that time, but these dissenters. And the dissenters were essentially told in no uncertain terms, just get out of here, Leave. We don't want you part of us. But that obviously didn't sit well with the people in the surrounding area either. Then this all kind of happened within this 1838 time frame. There starts being raiding parties back and forth. The Missourians are raiding the Mormons, the Mormons are raiding some of the Missourians. But Joseph's own involvement in this, he does not seem to have been a central figure. Now, he was there. He was president of the church. Certainly he must have known much of what was going on. But the really outrageous speeches were being given by Sidney Rigdon. And Joseph was never part of the militia. He was not a military man at that time. Later in Nauvoo, he became some kind of a lieutenant general. But at that time he was not part of that. The Danites were. It seems that their founder was this Samson Avard. And Rockwell seems to have been on most people's list as being a part of them. When Boggs issued his extermination order was when things had gotten totally out of hand on both sides. And the order didn't really give people license to go kill Mormons. It really said that the Mormons either have to leave the state or they will be exterminated. It was kind of a threat. And within days of that extermination order, Joseph Smith and the Brethren surrendered at Far West. And so there was never a need at that point to go out and murder people. The Hawn's Mill Massacre.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] So was anyone actually murdered under that extermination order?

Morris Thurston [00:06:26] Not that I'm aware of. Now, the Hawn's Mill massacre occurred the day after or two days after the extermination order. But my understanding of the best scholarship is that the participants in the Hauntle massacre didn't even know about the extermination order when it. When they did that.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Interesting.

Morris Thurston [00:06:44] But there were certainly people killed at Hans Mill. Joseph surrendered at Far west and as you said, was thrown into jail. But before that, there was a rather extensive set of hearings, an inquest at which many people testified. The Mormons say that they were browbeaten, that their own witnesses were scared away, because if a witness came in and testified favorably to the Mormons, he was immediately arrested and thrown into jail with the rest of them. Of course, the Missourians claim that the thing was all done on the up and up. Samson Avard turned state's witness, as we would say today. He essentially renounced the church and put a lot of testimony on the record that was very unfavorable to the church. But a lot of people feel that he did. A lot of his testimony was simply to save his own skin because he was clearly the instigator of the Danites and the guy at the leadership in all of this. He avoided jail by doing that. But Joseph, Sidney Hyrum and others, Parley P. Pratt, were jailed. The charge against Joseph was treason. Others were Parley P. Pratt. The charge was murder. But the murder was not one that he is alleged to have pulled the trigger on, but simply there was a battle involving the Battle of Crooked river involving Mormon troops and Missourians, at which a Missourian was killed. And therefore any participant in that, and particularly a leader, would be claimed to be guilty of murder. Joseph's alleged crime of treason was treason against the state of Missouri, which is kind of an unusual thing. We ask, how can you have treason against a state? We think of treason against a country. But I think that the Missourians really, the view there was that treason was an offense for which bail could not be posted. And at least some. There have been some theories that part of what was going on here was holding Joseph Smith hostage while the Mormons exited the state. And By April of 1839, he was taken into custody in prison in December 1, 1838. By April of 1839, the Mormons had vacated. They left during the winter, crossed the Mississippi and were gone almost everyone who was an active Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] And which jail did Joseph go to?

Morris Thurston [00:09:26] Well, he first went to Richmond jail and Then he ended up in Liberty Jail. Liberty Jail, where he spent most of the time.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] Okay, so basically it was, you can have your profit back as soon as you're all gone.

Morris Thurston [00:09:40] That's what a lot of people have speculated. Now, that was never said. And Joseph. Finally, in April, Joseph was taken from Liberty Jail, which is down near Independence, up to Gallatin in Missouri, which is where some of the Mormon militants had done some of their raiding. And it's the county seat of Davies county, there to be tried for his treasonous crimes. However, when they got to Gallatin, it turns out that the judge in Gallatin was one of the prosecuting attorneys back at this inquest that was heard right when Joseph was surrendered. And obviously, that's a conflict of interest. And so Joseph's attorneys. And by the way, Joseph always had the best attorneys. In this case, one of his attorneys was Alexander Doniphan, a member of the state legislature of Missouri. His attorney's got a change of venue to Boone County. And so in April, they took off for Boone county for the new trial. And that is where, sort of halfway along the way in Cheriton County, Joseph escaped from his and the others, from their prisoners, and went their guards and went back to Illinois.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] So he escaped. Like, what I had always read is they just kind of quietly let him go. Did they actually?

Morris Thurston [00:11:17] That's actually a big debate among historians whether you use the word escape or let them go. The version that Hyrum Smith told was that the guards basically let it be known that they were going to get drunk that night, and if the Saints wanted to take off, they could. The prisoners, they would look the other way. Sheriff Morgan, who was in charge of the group later, took a lot of heat for letting them escape. And he denied, of course, that he did that. But there's also evidence that they escaped with a horse that Joseph Smith had bought en route by a promissory note to one of the guards. And, you know, why would a guard sell Joseph Smith the horse? I mean, you could certainly. One interpretation is, okay, here you go. Take off. And one of the things we found in connection with this legal paper that's a lot of fun is that we have found where this guard came back to Nauvoo several years later, collected on the promissory note. So that lends some credence to the fact that this maybe wasn't completely an escape.

Setting the Stage in Nauvoo

John Dehlin [00:12:43] Okay, so now take us into Nauvoo and give us a little background, whatever back in you want to, before we start talking about the cases.

Morris Thurston [00:12:50] Well, I Think that really gets us right into the case because nothing happens to Joseph after he escapes. Now, again, if you, if you really think that Missouri wanted to keep Joseph, you would have thought they would have immediately set about trying to extradite a manhunt or at the very least, gone through legal procedures in Missouri because it was very obvious he was in Illinois right across the river and that he was setting up this major city of Nauvoo. There are legal procedures where they can demand that a fugitive from justice come back and stand trial for his alleged crimes.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] And he fled in 1839, is that right?

Morris Thurston [00:13:31] He fled on. Yes. 1839. April.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] Okay, April. April 6th, probably. No, I'm just kidding. 1839. I'm kidding. 1839.

Morris Thurston [00:13:42] And in August of 1840. So we're talking over a year later, the Boone county prosecutor filed a document that we have found called Noel Prosecchi. And it is a document that says that I no longer intend to prosecute this case. So more than a year later, as far as Boone county is concerned, which is where he was to stand trial, that's where they were headed. The case is dead drop charges. Basically, they dropped the charges, yeah, except that it's not with prejudice. In other words, you can reinstitute these charges. But it indicated that he was not interested in going forward. The very next month, September of 1840, the governor of Missouri, Thomas Reynolds, initiated the extradition proceedings against Joseph by sending a requisition to the governor of Illinois, Thomas Carlin. And so for the longest time, I scratched my head on why. I mean, it's now well over a year later, Boone county prosecutors don't want to go forward with it. All of a sudden we've got these documents appearing saying we want Joseph back to stand trial again. This is 1840 now 1840, and Boggs is governor. Boggs is no longer Governor. Reynolds is governor.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] Reynolds is governor.

Morris Thurston [00:15:09] And then I started reading newspaper articles throughout the area and found that just about this same time, a month or so before, there was an incident involving Missourians and Illinoisans. And what happened was that a bunch of what sometimes are referred to in the newspaper articles as ruffians from Missouri, from Tully, Missouri, slipped across the river and kidnapped three or four Mormons near a Mormon community of Lima, Illinois, and took them back across the river. The claim was that the Mormons had been stealing from the Missourians, taking it over there and caching it. Now, whether they actually did that or not, I don't know, and I don't know that anyone knows. But this Raised quite a furor in Illinois because when the Mormons first arrived, the Illinois papers were highly, highly complimentary of them. So still in 1840, they were very much on the Mormon side and they said, this is outrageous. How could Missouri come and kidnap these people? We demand that our Governor extradite these criminals from Missouri back to Illinois where the crime was committed and stand trial. And the Governor did. He brought up extradition papers and they were to come back. Well, I think what happened is that the Governor of Missouri gets these extradition papers and says, oh ho, you're going to take some of our citizens and try them for alleged crimes against these Mormon thieves. By golly, we've got someone worse than a thief there in Illinois and we're going to get him back. And so that, I think was the impetus for the, the request to get Joseph and Sidney Rigdon to come back.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] Interstate rivalry.

Morris Thurston [00:17:04] Yeah, exactly. By the way, the papers said, this is what was said in the Quincy wig. Kind of interesting. Immediately upon the return of Governor Carlin's messenger, two envoys made their appearance in our city from Governor Boggs of Missouri. Now, by the way, Governor Boggs was really Governor Reynolds. So the newspaper had it wrong. Commissioned with powers to demand of Governor Carlin, Joseph Smith Jr. And Sidney Rigdon, two citizens of this state, as runaway criminals from Missouri, Governor Carlin and the two Missouri agents held a conference on Sunday last. Yes, on the Sabbath day. And the result was, as far as we learn, that Governor Carlin is to give up Messrs. Smith and Rigdon to the Missouri authorities. Most certainly, Smith and Rigdon should not be given up. The Governor well knows the prejudices existing in Missouri against the society of which they are prominent members. Should they be given up, the Governor of Missouri should protect them from a mob. And if the Governor of Missouri should protect them from the Mobile, they could never expect justice in a trial under the laws of Missouri. So this is a non Mormon newspaper from Quincy that is making these statements. So it's not just the Mormons who claim these things. It was pretty well commonly believed at this time that Joseph and Sidney would never get justice in Missouri.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] That makes sense.

Morris Thurston [00:18:36] So right away they tried to serve the warrant to get John, Joseph and Sidney back. But as we'll learn as we go along, it's not easy to serve a warrant on Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. And he basically avoided service at that time. And again, the matter seemed to just drop. You know, it seemed like no one in Illinois was that anxious for this to happen. And maybe no one in Missouri was that anxious for it either. And then we get this business happening with what I call the first extradition request where it gets served. And that's what we're talking about now is the first request. And it was served in June, June 4, 1841. So we're now talking the next year. Joseph has just been visiting Governor Carlin in Governor Carlin's house in Quincy. And nothing at all is said about this. And yet just a couple of hours later, he's cornered by the sheriff of Adams county, where Quincy is located, and arrested and said that you're now going back to Missouri. So the thought is that Governor Carlin all the time knew and that he tipped off the authorities to Joseph's whereabouts. Now he's ready to go. This kind of corresponds with the period of time where the Mormons stock starts to go down among certain newspapers at least. And when I was here in the last session, we talked about the brouhaha with Thomas Sharp. This is happening at the same time where Thomas Sharp, the editor of the Warsaw Signal, writes an article that's kind of negative toward the Saints, but not all that negative. And Joseph Smith replies with a very, very out there kind of reply, calling it a tissue of lies and a filthy rag, essentially.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] Let me just jump in and ask you just a little bit more background. The narrative that I remember reading about, which again is going to be sketchy, is that, you know, when 10,000 or 15,000 citizens sort of plop down in a state, there can be some pretty serious political consequences or ramifications for that. As I understand it, the state of Illinois politically was so evenly divided between two parties. I don't know if it's the Whigs or Democratic Republicans or what they were, but divided between two parties such that a 10 to 15,000 person voting block can actually mean the difference between who becomes governor and other, you know, who becomes senator and other very important things. So I've heard that as a main, a primary impetus behind the degree of favor with which the LDS people were received. So that led to John C. Bennett going to the Illinois state legislature and getting a charter for the city of Nauvoo, which by many historical interpretations has been viewed as a very favorable one, granting much more powers and authority to the leaders of Nauvoo than a city traditionally would have been granted. And it also led, as I understand it, to both parties trying to curry favor with Joseph Smith. And Joseph then working through at least a few years of promising his affections and loyalty to one side and Then maybe to the other, and then eventually both being frustrated with Joseph because neither felt like they could then rely on the citizens of Nauvoo or the Mormons to vote equitably. Is any of this relevant to what you're, you know, the setting to what we'll talk about? And am I, do I have it wrong in any fundamental points?

Joseph Smith's Arrest and Political Context in Illinois

Morris Thurston [00:22:32] Well, it is. It is relevant. And certainly the political. The Mormons were a political pawn. No doubt about it. Nauvoo was destined to become, if not the largest city in Illinois, certainly close to Chicago as the largest. And whenever you have a big city like Los Angeles or Salt Lake City, they will have the ability to somewhat dominate state politics. And the Saints didn't dominate, but they were a critical swing boat. And so people were trying to curry favor. Politicians on both sides of the fence were currying favor, and the Saints tended to flip, flop. And they were criticized for that. That's what Sharp was criticizing them for. Joseph's response was, why wouldn't we vote for the person who's going to treat us well? So, yes, that was a major issue. If that played a part in his suddenly being arrested or not, I'm not sure. Because Carlin, as much as anyone would like to have, I'm sure curried favor with Joseph. And maybe that's why Carlin didn't mention it when Joseph was there. Maybe he wanted it to look like it was just the administrative branch, or rather the justice branch, that was taking charge of all of this. Anyway, so Joseph gets taken just outside of Quincy. They travel back to Nauvoo, which is a day's journey with the prisoner, with the guards, the sheriff, he gets sick. He spends Sunday, it was Saturday. They spend Sunday in Nauvoo. Joseph nurses him until he's healthy enough to travel again. And where they're going is Monmouth, Illinois. And the reason they're going there is that the circuit court, the circuit judge for that area was Stephen A. Douglas, who becomes a very critical figure in American politics later on when he runs against Abraham Lincoln for President.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Lincoln, Douglas debates.

Morris Thurston [00:24:38] Exactly. Stephen A. Douglas at this time was a circuit judge. Circuit judges were justices of the Supreme Court that would ride the circuit to the various county seats throughout Illinois and hold court. And Douglass was going to hold court in Monmouth. And when the judge came to town, this was like the circus coming to town because everybody was excited about what would happen. Their friends would be there, there would be lawsuits going back and forth, and it was great entertainment. But for Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet, to Be dragged into court was even greater entertainment. This was something these folks in Monmouth hadn't seen at all. And so as Joseph arrives on Monday, people are there to see him come. They want to see a prophet, see him in chains, as he puts it. Whether he was literally in chains, I don't know. But at the same time, Joseph was always accompanied by quite a large contingent of his own followers, bodyguards, members of the leadership, the hierarchy or whatever. So we're talking about maybe four or five people that are keeping guard over him and then 15 or 20 of his own people who are with them, and they're all arriving in Monmouth. There's a hearing before Judge Douglas. And you know, one funny incident that I'll just relate, there were five lawyers that Joseph hired for this. Again, as I say, he tended to go for the best. And the best lawyer in Illinois at the time was Orville Browning. Browning was the man who later was one of the key organizers of the Republican Party and was very instrumental in getting the presidency for Abraham Lincoln and went on to serve in cabinet level positions in Washington. So he's an outstanding guy at this time. He's in his 30s, like Joseph is very pious, very straight down the line guy. And he led the team of five lawyers that Joseph hired. And there was a team of five lawyers for the state, including one young lawyer from Missouri. And the Illinois people had a nickname for Missourians. They called them pukes. And this incident that happened, the Missouri lawyer apparently got up and started his argument and been drinking a bit and chewing tobacco and suddenly felt sick. And I know as a young lawyer you often feel sick in big surroundings where the courtroom's packed, as this one was. He runs out of the room, runs down the stair, and they can hear him retching down the stairs. And everybody breaks up in laughter because here we have a Missouri puke who's puking on the stairs. That's just a funny incident that happens. Browning makes an impassioned plea before the judge and says, I'll just read you a sentence or two of it. Talks about the persecution of the Mormons. Great God, have I not seen it? Yes, my eyes have beheld the blood stained traces of innocent women and children in the drear winter who'd traveled hundreds of miles barefoot through frost and snow to seek a refuge from their savage pursuers. Twas a scene of horror sufficient to enlist sympathy from an adamantine heart. And he goes on in this vein, of course, the issue before the judge. This is on habeas corpus, and I should explain a Little bit about habeas corpus, because it comes very critical as we go on. The accepted role of habeas corpus is to test the validity of the arrest warrant. In other words, is it issued by proper authority? And was it properly served? And that's it. You don't go into the reasons behind it. In other words, this was not a trial of whether or not Joseph was guilty of treason in Missouri. This was a trial about whether the requisition was proper, whether it was properly served. And all this stuff that Browning was saying was essentially irrelevant to that point. But it made good copy. And according to at least the Mormon sources, it brought many to tears. Douglass retired and came on the bench. And I think Douglass was a very political guy, as we were later to find out, and he didn't want to have the Mormons think ill of him. And he came up with a very ingenious ruling. What he ruled was that, in fact, when Joseph was served with process, it was invalid because the original warrant had been issued way back the year before. They had gone out to try to serve him. They couldn't find him, and they had returned the warrant to the governor as being unsigned. At that point, Douglass said it was void. It was. It was null and void. And if Missouri wanted to extradite Joseph again, they had to issue a new requisition and a new warrant had to be issued. And so Joseph was free to go.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] And do we know if the governor of Illinois was okay with this, or did he have some backwoods agreement with the governor of Missouri? And so there was continuing animosity.

Morris Thurston [00:30:06] I don't think there was particular agreement between the two governors. But whether the governor, whether Carlin thought this was a good thing or not, I'm not sure. It certainly got favor for Douglas among the Mormons. Joseph and his group were just enthusiastic about this, even though it was on a technicality and not on the merits. They had a big dinner. And apparently he treated 120 people, or no, 50. 50 people to dinner. 60 people at dinner, I think it was.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Who did?

Morris Thurston [00:30:42] Joseph, including, probably including Douglas. I don't know if Douglas was invited. It wouldn't surprise me if he was, but certainly his lawyers and all the people that had come to Nauvoo, that were members of the church and other dignitaries.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] Joseph threw a big party.

Morris Thurston [00:30:59] Big party. And he was a little bit peeved at the fact that it came to $120, which is a tidy sum of money in those days.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] Who was peeped?

Morris Thurston [00:31:08] Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] Oh, he said that party that I threw.

Morris Thurston [00:31:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] My people spent too much money.

Morris Thurston [00:31:14] Yeah. Well, reading between the lines, it seems like maybe he thought the bill was excessive.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] What were Douglas's aspirations? You know, did he have political aspirations that he was maybe trying to cover a bit?

Morris Thurston [00:31:27] Oh, I'm sure he did.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] What were they. Did he want to become president or governor?

Morris Thurston [00:31:31] I don't. I don't know. I have not read a biography of Douglas, but he was. He very soon rose to being a senator and. And then engaging in these. In these debates.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] A U. S. Senator?

Morris Thurston [00:31:46] Yeah, I believe so.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] And so he would have had to have gotten voted by the state. Right, Right. Okay. All right.

Morris Thurston [00:31:51] Yeah. No, he was Governor Ford, as a matter of fact, now that you're. Now this is kind of coming back to me. I have a feeling they were on different sides of the political spectrum because in his history of Illinois, Ford kind of excoriates Douglass as being just a political animal and that the reason for his ruling as he did was all due to politics.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] And was Ford. And was it Carlin?

Morris Thurston [00:32:16] Carlin was governor at the time Ford became governor. At the time.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] Were they both of the same party or do you know?

Morris Thurston [00:32:20] I believe so. You're asking me things that I should be better at, but I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] No, it's good. Okay. So Joseph has a big party. He gets let off the hook.

Morris Thurston [00:32:30] Yes. And so things seem fine now. And this is 1840, 1841 we're talking about. This is June of 1841.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:32:42] The next thing that is relevant from my standpoint, the extraditions, happens on May 6th of 1842, almost a year later, when Governor Lilburn Boggs, ex Governor Lilburn Boggs of Missouri, is sitting in his home in Independence, a nice cozy family room by a fire, reading a newspaper in the evening. He's got his daughter, who's 7 or 8 years old, there in the room, and she's tending a little infant baby. He's got a large family. And his wife and other members of the family, we think, were, at least according to the story that his son later wrote, were in cleaning up the evening meal when suddenly there's a crash. And Bog slumps over, blood gushing, and he's been shot.

John Dehlin [00:33:27] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:33:27] From someone outside the home.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] Through a window.

Morris Thurston [00:33:31] Through a window. And screams bring neighbors, eventually doctors. It looks like he's dead for sure. Two balls have entered his head. So it's a rifle in his neck. It's not a rifle. It's a. It's a pistol, but it's one that has the different balls.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] Okay, okay.

Morris Thurston [00:33:53] It's a German pistol, is what it is, because the shooter leaves the pistol outside the window, whether in his haste to get away or what, we don't know really. So the pistol is found, and had we the fingerprint capabilities that we have today, that might have told a story right there now. So they labor over him. He's in a coma. But despite the fact that everybody believes he's going to die, and in fact, some newspapers in Nauvoo are later printing that he has died, he does not die, and he fully recovers. Initially, the suspicion goes out that it could be anyone. It could be some of his political enemies. There's a guy named Tompkins who actually is a real hard suspect. But then he basically proves an alibi and he gets away with that. They determine he's not the one that did it. And someone. It occurs to somebody that, you know, this could be the work of the Mormons. Well, lo and behold, who should be in Missouri at that time, but Warren Porter Rockwell, as you point out, someone who has been affiliated or associated at least with the Danites earlier and who is fiercely loyal to Joseph. In fact, when Joseph went back to Washington to meet with President Van Buren, the person he took along as bodyguard as his personal bodyguard was Porter Rockwell. And Porter Rockwell loved the prophet. So there are those who begin to suspect that maybe Rockwell was the shooter. Rockwell leaves Illinois or Missouri real quick.

The Boggs Shooting and Porter Rockwell

John Dehlin [00:35:50] Yeah, as I've learned a little bit about Mountain Meadows Massacre, one of the. One of the issues that sort of is irrefutable but not conclusive is that, you know, that a lot of the rhetoric coming from Brigham Young and a lot of the other high church leaders, at least in part, contributed to the environment that probably led to the massacre. So do we know anything about writings or speeches given or even personal conversations where Joseph or other church leaders expressed hatred towards Boggs, that he was going to die, that he should die, that blood atonement should happen towards him, or anything to that effect. You know, is there any. Is there anything regarding the environment or rhetoric used about him or any personal conversations that would. That would potentially tie, you know, you know, these accusations?

Morris Thurston [00:36:42] Well, it wouldn't surprise me. And in fact, I'm almost sure that there was lots of rhetoric against Governor Boggs. I mean, Governor Boggs, by Joseph and Thomas, by Joseph, by other church leaders, by Hyrum, by Sydney. I mean, Boggs was the guy that issued the extermination order. He's the guy that threw them in prison for five or six Months. And who wanted Joseph back? I mean, Boggs. It was Boggs had a lot to do with, in the Mormons minds, with the problems they went through. And we have at least the secondary sources. There was a postmaster in just across the river from Nauvoo in Montrose, Illinois who was a very anti Mormon, very outspoken anti Mormon, who wrote a letter to Governor Reynolds saying that he had heard the Mormons talk about speeches that Joseph gave, prophesying, for example, that Boggs would die a violent death. And so, yes, I think there probably was rhetoric. I'm not willing to put complete credence in this postmaster because a lot of what he writes has a lot of vitriol attached and it tends to be second hand evidence. So I'm not going to say that that's necessarily true, but in my own heart I can't help but feel that clearly no Mormon would have been all that upset if Boggs had met a violent death. That's a long way from saying that Joseph Smith ordered Porter Rockwell to go down and shoot Governor Boggs. Rockwell went down to Missouri and he'd been there for several months. He went down there because his wife's parents lived there and she was expecting their third or fourth child. Was he a polygamist this time? He wasn't later. So he went down there to be with her and at least I don't think he was at this time. If he was, it was fairly new. So he had good reason to be there, in other words, and he was

John Dehlin [00:38:47] there several months prior to the actual shooting.

Morris Thurston [00:38:49] Yeah. And there'd be good reason to leave right after the shooting if you were a Mormon and affiliated with the Danites.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] So he did come back to Illinois right after the shooting.

Morris Thurston [00:38:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Whether that was because he was scared that he would be blamed or he actually wanted to avoid the law is up to question.

Morris Thurston [00:39:08] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Okay,

Morris Thurston [00:39:13] so he gets back there and pretty soon this almost corresponds exactly with when John C. Bennett leaves the church, is kicked out.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] And tell us just a tiny bit about him. I know this is a lot of detail you weren't planning on, but he's a pretty important figure that Mormons know pretty much nothing about.

Morris Thurston [00:39:29] Well, he is important. He was a very politically connected man. He had been a physician at times. He was instrumental in getting the Nauvoo charter, which as you pointed out, was a very liberal charter, by the way. There were a number of cities in Illinois, however, who received charters almost as liberal. But it was the interpretation that the Mormons put on this charter and the laws promulgated under the charter. That kind of pushed it to the level where people really felt that the Mormons were taking advantage of.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] Ben was from Ohio, right?

Morris Thurston [00:40:07] Yeah. He had been at various places.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] Had he left a wife there?

Morris Thurston [00:40:10] He left a wife there. And he didn't really tell anybody that he had a wife there. And when he got to Nauvoo, he started preaching this spiritual wifery theory, which sounds a lot like polygamy, but the big difference is that it wasn't authorized.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Real quick. Because he was so instrumental in helping the Saints establish Nauvoo. As I understand it, Joseph made him co president of the church.

Morris Thurston [00:40:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] He's in the Doctrine and Covenants where it says John C. Bennett will be co president of the church.

Morris Thurston [00:40:45] He rose to a very high level. Certainly I almost think of him having the same position as Hyrum Smith later had. So you're talking about a man who had a meteoric rise in the church and who Joseph obviously trusted to a great degree. And Joseph's judgment in character wasn't always the greatest. And this was probably the primary example.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] One last question. Some claim that he was an abortionist. Is there any, in other words, people who want to say that Joseph was having relations with the wives that were secret, that John C. Bennett would sweep in and actually perform the abortions in case someone got pregnant? It seems really tabloid ish. Is there any evidence that credibility that you're aware of?

Morris Thurston [00:41:35] Not that I'm aware of.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:41:37] I think. Have you heard that I, you know, there was so much charge and countercharge going on at that time. I mean, you can read. People who were against the church will say almost anything. And people, frankly, who were in Nauvoo would say almost anything. And it's very, very difficult for a historian later on to determine what was true or not. You have to go back. What were people saying close to the event? Because that's likely to be more true than things said for 40 or 50 years later. And then you have to look at the motivation for saying it. And I'm sure that. And I don't even know the source for this rumor about abortions, but I'm sure if you looked at that, you would find that it's very third or fourth hand and that there were. There were. I mean, I don't think John C. Bennett ever said he did that. And certainly if he hated the church as much as he obviously did, he would have said if he had committed abortions.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] But clearly he would have been privy to Joseph's probably Some of his deepest secrets. Clearly, Joseph would have revealed to him the law of eternal marriage or polygamy or whatever. And so he would have known that from the prophet's perspective, polygamy was okay if sanctioned appropriately.

Morris Thurston [00:42:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] And then when you talk about spiritual wifery, you're saying that that was him trying to do his own version of it, in addition to whatever was legitimate from the prophet's eyes.

Morris Thurston [00:43:07] Right, right. He would find a girl that he liked and try to seduce her and say, it's all right. And my understanding, at least from the Mormon perspective, was he was saying, look, it's all right to have sex. You don't even really need to undergo a formal marriage sanctioned by Joseph or the other brethren. We'll just call it spiritual wifery, Play marriage, I guess. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] And we don't. There's no evidence that Joseph knew he was doing this.

Morris Thurston [00:43:36] Well, he found out about it, and that's why that was one of the causes of the rift. That's why he basically excommunicated Bennett. And this outraged over that. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:43:49] And this outraged Bennett, and he determined to make the church pay. And he was a talented enough guy that he could do that. He was a good writer. He went to newspapers with stories, and just a whole series of newspaper articles were published by anti Mormon newspapers by Bennett, and eventually he wrote a book.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] Did he stay in Nauvoo when he was writing these, or did he. No, he moved away.

Morris Thurston [00:44:14] He moved away. But he was in Illinois for a while, and he went down to Missouri and about. Talked. Talked to the Missouri papers and everything like that. He Actually, one of the things he wrote is probably the clearest. Well, let me just say this because we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves when Rockwell gets back to Illinois. We don't know if it's Rockwell or someone else, but my suspicion is that, you know, news travels only as fast as a horse in those days. And I imagine Rockwell got back there as quick as he could after the shooting. And somehow the folks in Illinois were under the impression that Boggs was dead. And there was an editorial printed in the Nauvoo wasp, which was edited by William Smith, the prophet's brother, signed by someone named Alpha, which was probably William Smith, but it could have been someone else. And it said, boggs is undoubtedly killed according to report, but who did the noble deed remains to be found out.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] Noble deed.

Morris Thurston [00:45:25] So that tells you a little bit about the rhetoric that at least now, William was a bit of a loose cannon, but William Smith was also a representative of the state legislature from Nauvoo, so that didn't sound too good. However, Joseph wrote a letter to the Quincy Whig, I believe it was, in which he said, boggs died. Not through my instrumentality. My hands are clear. My hands are clear and my heart is pure. Actually, I think that's clean. My hands are clean and my heart is pure from the blood of all men. I'm tired of the misrepresentation, calumny, and detraction heaped upon me by wicked men. So Joseph flat out denied that he had anything to do with it. On the other hand, Within a couple of weeks after this, John C. Bennett is writing in the Sangamo Journal. In 1841, Joe Smith prophesied in a public congregation in Nauvoo that Lilburn W. Boggs should die by violent hands within one year prior to the attempted assassination of Governor Boggs, Mr. O.P. rockwell left Nauvoo for parts unknown. And I've got ellipses in here as I'm reading, so this doesn't come straight, but I've taken the key parts. I asked Smith where Rockwell had gone. Gone, said he gone to fulfill prophecy. Now, that's Bennett's version.

Bennett's Role and Credibility as a Witness

John Dehlin [00:47:06] So Bennett, on the one hand, had access to these conversations, to the inner circles. On the other hand, he was excommunicated and had motive for misrepresenting.

Morris Thurston [00:47:17] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] And you, you probably don't have an opinion either way. Or do you have the opinion that he's just a liar?

Morris Thurston [00:47:26] Well, I don't have an opinion either way about whether or not Rockwell shot Boggs. You know, I think there's just too much on either side. It'd just be pure speculation. I do have an opinion that there was never enough evidence to convict Rockwell, as we shall later see.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Legally.

Morris Thurston [00:47:48] Absolutely. And that there is no legitimately unimpeachable historical evidence that would suggest that he did it. I mean, how can I possibly convict Rockwell sitting here 150, 60, 70 years later? I would be speculating, and so would anyone else who claims that Rockwell was the shooter as to whether Joseph ordered him to do it. My faith is strong enough in Joseph that I absolutely believe Joseph did not. Then there's the kind of middle ground. Did Joseph make some rhetoric, make some prophecy? We know from reading the Joseph Smith papers that Joseph was making little prophecies on almost a daily basis, kind of like you. And I would say, you know, I prophesy that the Patriots are going to win the game next Sunday. We say, I'll bet he'll win the game. Well, Joseph, being a prophet, tended to speak in terms of prophecy. And so we'll find out later in one of these things that he prophesied that he would not be sent back to Missouri. Well, he did that when his lawyers and everybody else told him, you have an absolutely ironclad case. You're not going to be sent back to Missouri. So was it a great, great prophecy? It was probably in my mind. He was just kind of talking as a prophet. And so did he ever prophesy that Boggs might die a violent death? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. But I don't think that he sent Rockwell. But that's just my faith as a Mormon who believes.

John Dehlin [00:49:22] Gotcha.

Morris Thurston [00:49:27] So where are we? Well, now what happens? Boggs, when he finally wakes up and figures things out? I think he becomes convinced that the Mormons were involved. So he swears out an affidavit saying that it's his opinion that Joseph Smith was involved as an accessory before the fact in attempted murder and that Rockwell was the guy that attempted to shoot him. This affidavit is then given to Governor Reynolds of Missouri, who issues a requisition to Governor Carlin of Illinois. And Governor Carlin issues an arrest warrant and sends the sheriff up to Nauvoo to arrest Joseph. They appear and they put Joseph and Rockwell under arrest. This was apparently done all on the sly, or Joseph and Rockwell probably wouldn't have been available to be arrested. Joseph immediately goes to the Nauvoo Municipal Court and obtains a writ of habeas corpus. And the sheriff is a little puzzled by this, because this, after all, is a writ from the governor, and you're going to a municipal court of a city. So the sheriff, not knowing what to do, goes back to Quincy to Governor Carlin, says, what shall I do? Carlin says he's outraged. Of course. You go back, you arrest him, you drag him back here. They have no authority in this matter. The sheriff goes back, and as Joseph puts it in his journal, when the sheriff returned, I was away. And he proceeds to go into hiding. For the next three months or so, he flits around from house to house across the river into Iowa. They even have a meeting on an island in the middle of the Mississippi river river between Nauvoo and.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] So this going underground that the polygamists did in the late 1800s sort of has its origins in Joseph doing the same type of thing in Nauvoo. Is that right?

Morris Thurston [00:51:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] That's really interesting.

Morris Thurston [00:51:33] And he's put up at various houses. But this is hard, I think, for Joseph because one thing we know about him is he's a very. He likes people.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] He's a social guy.

Morris Thurston [00:51:44] He's a social guy. He likes people. He. He likes to lead. His people are important to him. And so it's weighing on him. His wife writes a letter to him and says. Emma writes him a letter and says, I'd like to go and see if I can't get Governor Carla to rescind this ridiculous order. Can I go see the governor? Because she had met him, she'd been hosted by him and his wife. And, you know, Joseph being a major political figure in the state, everybody knew Emma and Joseph, but he was fleeing the law.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] I mean, he was.

Morris Thurston [00:52:19] He was fleeing the law, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] So this whole obeying, honoring, sustaining the law, we believe it. But in this case, it was sort of an extraordinary circumstance where he felt like.

Morris Thurston [00:52:29] Well, I'm sure in Joseph's mind, this was a completely illegal, illegitimate warrant.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] But he didn't feel like he had the. He didn't feel like he had the evidence to prove Porter Rockwell innocent.

Morris Thurston [00:52:43] No, I think what he felt was that he wouldn't get a fair trial.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] Right.

Morris Thurston [00:52:48] In any sense of the word. And he was worried about.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] And he's probably right.

Morris Thurston [00:52:53] He's probably right. And he's. And in fact, he's worried that he will never get to trial, that the minute they take him over the line into Missouri, someone will arrange to kill him. And that would be a very easy thing to do. I mean, you know, if the guards could look the other way, as they did when. As we think they did when he escaped, and if they could look the other way, as they certainly did in Carthage, then they can look the other way.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] Like the Lee Harvey Oswald thing, right?

Morris Thurston [00:53:20] Well, I don't know if they look the other way there. I'm not going to get into that conspiracy. But I think Joseph had good reason to be fearful. And so, anyway, Emma asks about going to see Carlin to get this thing dropped, and I think it's kind of fun. I have brought a few little quotes with me because I love to see quotes that we don't normally associate with Joseph Smith. We don't usually get it in the priesthood manuals or anything, although we're having a couple of good manuals coming up on him. So we'll have to see the newspapers. Let me first say the newspapers, particularly the Warsaw Signal, Sharp's paper, were outraged when Joseph goes into hiding. And this is what they. No termination of the affair could be less satisfactory than the one which has taken place. If Smith had resisted, we should have had the sport of driving him and his worthy clan out of the state en masse. But as it is, we are mortified that there is no efficacy in the law to bring such a scamp to justice. So already, you know, this is kind of the theme we're getting. The good that the saints were seen as the good people they were seen as being is that the opinion is starting to shift. And Thomas Sharp is one of the key guys behind.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] And this is 1842.

Morris Thurston [00:54:49] This is 1841 still.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Okay, okay.

Joseph Smith Fights Extradition in Court

Morris Thurston [00:54:54] So anyway, back to the letter that Joseph writes back to Emma. He kind of waffles about what he's going to do, whether he's going to fight this or not. And then at one point in the letter, he says, maybe we should just take off, you and me, Emma, he says, and then let the goods, household furniture, clothes and store goods that can be procured be put on the boat and let 20 or 30 of the best men that we can find be put on board to man it. And we will wend our way like larks up the Mississippi until the touring mountains and rocks shall remind us of the places of our Nativity. And we will bid defiance to the world, to Carlin, B. Boggs, Bennett and all their whorish whores and motley clan that follow in their wake.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Holy moly.

Morris Thurston [00:55:44] And so you kind of see Joseph almost in my mind, it's almost like a daydream. Can I get away from all this junk? You know, take some of my trusted friends and start over again?

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Just start over again.

Morris Thurston [00:55:57] But in the same letter, he tells Joseph or tells Emma, you know, go in. I'm sure it's the same letter. It may not be the same letter, but in a letter he tells Emma, look, you can write to Carlin, but don't go down and see him, because the guy's an idiot. And I don't want you to be spending your time with an idiot. So Emma and Carlin exchange letters back and forth, two letters each. The first letter, Emma says, have pity on us, the poor elderly mother of Joseph, my children, you know, know. You know, he's not guilty of this. Can't you just drop it? And Carlin writes back, and he basically is unmoved. You know, he says he's got to stand trial. So then she writes back with some legal arguments, and they're pretty good legal arguments, which we'll get to in a bit.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] She probably had a counselor right probably.

Morris Thurston [00:56:45] Or she might have just been smart woman. And I mean, the real key legal argument here is that in order for someone to be extradited from one state to another, he has to be a fugitive from justice. And Joseph, everybody knew that Joseph was in Nauvoo when Governor Boggs was murdered. Therefore he could not be a fugitive from Missouri justice. And that's the point she made. And Carlin's point was, look, if he thinks he has a good case, his duty is to submit himself to the law and get it tested. So that's what was going on. Eventually, Joseph, I think, gets tired of being in exile. He starts kind of showing his face in Nauvoo. In fact, he gives some speeches in Nauvoo. And he sends a delegation to Springfield to test the waters to find out if I did submit myself to the law, what would happen. And so some of his trusted advisors, some of the twelve apostles, take off in the middle of the winter, December, early December, and they go to Springfield. And one of the reasons they go is that Governor Carlin has been replaced by Governor Thomas Ford.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] See if the new administration would be more favorable.

Morris Thurston [00:58:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:58:05] And Governor Ford actually says, hold on, folks, you know, you're going to spend several days here. I'm going to go talk to some of the members of the Illinois Supreme Court and find out what they think. And he comes back and he tells them, look. And he actually writes a letter to Joseph to this effect. I've consulted with six members of the Supreme Court and I don't feel like I can just dismiss this case. But they say that if you come here, they're confident that you have good legal rights.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] Yeah, right.

Morris Thurston [00:58:36] So he writes that back. And at the same time, the United States Attorney for Illinois, Butterfield, Justin Butterfield, writes to Joseph and says, I too believe you have a good case and I will represent you, the U.S. attorney for Illinois. I will represent you in your case if you come. And so with these assurances, plus one from a Mormon judge that was in Springfield, Joseph decides that that's what he will do. And so he surrenders in the winter of 1841, December 1841, to Wilson Law, who is the leader of the Nauvoo Legion at that time was the highest ranking military authority. And not William Law, not William Wilson, his brother.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:59:23] And they take off for Springfield. And I'm skipping a lot because, you know, we need to get through this. But they get to Springfield, three day journey, middle of the winter cold. They get there and of course the city, Springfield is far smaller. Even though it's the capital of Illinois, it's far smaller than Nauvoo. And again, it's huge news. In fact, so huge that the House of Representatives was meeting. They knew that Joseph had arrived. And all of a sudden, a team of horses breaks away and runs down the street. And someone shouts out, the Mormon prophet is running away. And all the House of Representatives adjourns and runs to the windows to watch this horse cart run down the street. Turns out it's not. But that's how big of a figure he was. While he's there, he meets with Stephen A. Douglas. He meets with other important people. And the speaker of the House of the Illinois House of Representatives offers him Representatives hall for preaching a sermon on Sunday. He arrives on Saturday, and Sunday is January 1, 1842. And so the Mormons take over Representatives Hall. Orson Hyde and John Taylor, preacher sermons. One in the morning, one in the afternoon, and the hall is packed with people. Well, the Joseph Smith Papers Project tour, that's one of the places we went. And we have one of our church members works there in the Historical Society and was able to get us an exclusive one hour there in Representatives hall today. It's been restored to look just like it did in Joseph Street Day. The whole building has. And it was quite a feeling of history as you sat there and thought of John Taylor and Orson Hyde preaching this sermon. And we only had two speakers that day from the group of scholars. And I happened to be one of the lucky ones who got to speak. So I stood there at the podium that they would have stood at, and behind me was a painting of George Washington. And I was told that it's the same painting that was hanging there when Abraham Lincoln laid in state at that very spot.

John Dehlin [01:01:44] Wow.

Morris Thurston [01:01:44] So it was kind of fun to be there for that history. So anyway, the legal part of this involves what Butterfield decided was to bring the case in United States District Court for Illinois rather than the Illinois Supreme Court, which is in the state court system. And there's probably a lot of reasons for that. One was that Butterfield himself was U.S. attorney and therefore affiliated with the federal court system. But he believed that since extradition is covered by the Constitution of the United States, that the federal court should decide questions like this. The attorney on the other side for the state was Josiah Lamborn. Now, there's some irony here, because Josiah Lamborn, who's trying to send Joseph Smith back to Missouri, he is the Attorney General for Illinois. Later, when the accused murderers of Joseph Smith are Tried. Lamborn is the prosecuting attorney and there are actually two ironies that relate to the trial of the accused murderer. It's just a slight digression. Lamborn here, who is opposed to Joseph and is trying to send him back to Missouri, becomes the prosecuting attorney of his murderers or those accused of his murder. And Orville Browning, the guy that spoke so eloquently in favor of the Mormons at the first extradition, becomes the defense attorney of the accused murderers. So little ironies going on here. There's a fun quote that I'd like to read from a newspaper about Joseph Smith in Springfield and I like this. And you'll see why. Smith was attended by a retinue of some 15 or 20 of as fine looking men as my eyes ever beheld. My great astonishment is how men possessing the intellectual faculties, refinement of education and cultivated minds that most of his bodyguard apparently do can be so outrageously blinded as they are by Joe Smith. As for Smith, his demeanor, as far as I could observe, was by no means censurable. And he apparently was as unconcerned as to what was passing around him as though he was a perfect stranger to the whole proceedings.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] Man. But that's a testament at a minimum to Joseph's personality, his charisma, his poise

Morris Thurston [01:04:20] and the fact that he even in the eyes of these non Mormons who thought he was an imposter, that the men around him were not fools, they were not people that struck you as just country rubes. They were people that were articulate, who could deliver sermons that would draw crowds and who, who were believed by many, even though some thought they were charlatans. So when Justice Pope calls the case, Judge Pope calls the case of Joseph Smith ex parte Joseph Smith. There is an absolutely packed courthouse again and it's a ruffian kind of courthouse, mostly men. And when he enters the courtroom, he's accompanied by a retinue of some 10 or 12 ladies. And these are ladies of high society and they're seated on either side of the bench in special seats, kind of away from the, the riffraff. And I believe it included Butterfield's wife, although I have to look that up for sure. But one of the ladies that we know was in attendance because it was later written by someone not a Mormon and who was a lawyer who happened to be there at the time was Mary Todd Lincoln, the brand new wife of Abraham Lincoln. There's no indication that Abraham himself ever met the prophet and he was not there at the time. We're quite certain, in fact, we found that he was otherwise engaged in another case. He was a lawyer at that time. So when Butterfield rises up, he gives a really great opening statement. I'm going to quote from a reminiscence of a lawyer that was written some years after the event, but I suspect it happened pretty much this way. Mr. Butterfield rose with dignity amidst the most profound silence. Pausing and running his eyes admiringly from the central figure of Judge Pope along the rows of lovely women on either side of him, he said, may it please the court, I appear before you today under circumstances, circumstances most novel and peculiar. I am to address the Pope, bowing to the judge, surrounded by angels, bowing still lower to the ladies in the presence of the holy apostles in behalf of the prophet of the Lord.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] Wow.

Morris Thurston [01:07:10] I've always thought that was a great, great way to open up your argument. So anyway.

John Dehlin [01:07:17] So was that sarcasm?

Morris Thurston [01:07:19] I don't think it was. I think it's a lawyer representing his

John Dehlin [01:07:22] client, a believer or a non believer.

Morris Thurston [01:07:25] I don't think he believed. But lawyers don't have to believe in their cases.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] But if they're presenting to non believers, that could jeopardize the credibility of the legal counsel itself. Right.

Morris Thurston [01:07:39] I think it was a joke. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:42] But then starting.

Morris Thurston [01:07:43] But it was a wonderful play of words. It was a play on words because Joseph was prophet to many people. And so we often refer to Joseph the prophet. Even the non Mormon papers referred to Joseph the prophet. They didn't believe he was a true prophet of God, but that's what he called himself. And you've got, you know, you've got the whole list. You've got the Pope, you've got the angels, you've got the apostles, you've got the prophet. In other words, he's saying, I represent the side of justice and right argument back and forth to cut through all the legalese, because most of your listeners won't be lawyers. What Butterfield pointed out to the judge and what the judge eventually decided, first of all, the judge decided he did have jurisdiction because in his opinion, it was a federal case. At least he was entitled to take jurisdiction because it's across two states, because it involves extradition and extradition is covered by the Constitution. Butterfield tried to actually did introduce affidavits showing that Joseph had never left the state and therefore could not have been a fugitive from justice. But Pope said, you know, that would be going beyond the four corners of this indictment and arrest warrant. And since we're here on habeas corpus, I really can't consider that kind of material. What I can consider, however, is what does support the requisition request from Missouri. And what supports it is the affidavit of Boggs. And Boggs says that it's his information and belief that Joseph is an accessory before the fact of his murder. Now if Boggs has concrete information, he should have stated what it was. We can't rely on his belief here. We need evidence and no evidence was stated. Furthermore, when he says that Joseph was an accessory before for the fact, he's stating a legal conclusion. And we're not here to consider legal conclusions from a non lawyer like Boggs. That's my province. And I don't find that there's any cause to send Joseph back and therefore he can go free. So that was a wonderful victory again for Joseph Smith. And it was done completely in accordance with law right there in the capital city of Illinois. So another party, another party bigger than $150 in fact, Wilson Law, as they made their way back, wrote a song has 15 verses and I won't sing it all for you, but it was kind of clever. It's called the Mormon Jubilee and what the heck, I'll give you the first verse and are you sure the news is true? And are you sure he's free? Then let us join with one accord and have a jubilee. We'll have a jubilee, my friends we'll have a jubilee with heart and voice we'll all rejoice in that Our prophet's free. And the Jubilee went on to talk about their entire experience. It was like a little memorial of their experience in Nauvoo. It talked about Judge Pope, talked about Lambourne, talked about Butterfield, it talked about Boggs. And they would sing this thing. As they're marching along the long days, three days journey and every place they stay at night people said sing it for us again. And I just would like people to picture this retinue of maybe 20, 30, 40, I don't know how many were in the party by this time singing this thing as they walk through in great spirits. And at one point one of their wagons slipped off the road on a bridge and into a gully and broke. And they had to repair it. Paid some money to some local people and they all kind of laughed and said, let's send the bill to go Governor Boggs. So that was great. The opinion though again there were those who thought that Joseph was kind of getting out on the technicality here, not on the merits, not on the merits. The newspaper, one newspaper said habeas corpus

John Dehlin [01:12:19] itself is a technicality. Right?

Morris Thurston [01:12:21] It is. It goes to the efficacy of the. Of the.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] A warrant arrest. Yeah.

Morris Thurston [01:12:27] And that's what Judge Pope was saying. I'm not going to decide whether or not Joseph was guilty of that or even whether or not he was in Missouri. But this isn't enough evidence. If you've got better evidence, Governor Boggs or anybody else, hit me with it, but this isn't it. And so the paper said the decision of Judge Pope was uncommonly clear and lucid and gave universal satisfaction so far as I have heard any opinion expressed. So they were very complimentary of Judge Pope. And in fact, that opinion has been cited in other legal opinions for a hundred years after the fact. It's called the Case of the Mormon Prophet. But on the other hand, regarding Smith, they say Joe Smith. This is the. The Alton Telegraph. Joe Smith, for the time being has escaped that punishment he so richly merits. But a righteous retribution will yet be visited upon him. No man whose hands are stained with the blood of a fellow mortal can successfully elude the punishment. The day of its visitation upon him may be far distant, but arrive it certainly will.

John Dehlin [01:13:39] Who wrote this?

Morris Thurston [01:13:40] This is the Alton Thomas Telegraph.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] Is that an Illinois.

Morris Thurston [01:13:43] It's an Illinois paper. And these are the same papers that are publishing John C. Bennett. So, you know, they've got their political angle here and they're clearly anti Mormons, but in a way it's kind of prophetic. You can see why I say that these cases begin to set the stage for what is to follow.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] But it sounds like the, the entire state of still, you know, the elite blue bloods of the state of Illinois had this moment of just rapture and joy with Joseph. Was there like social communion between top Illinois leaders and Joseph and his entourage?

Morris Thurston [01:14:24] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:14:25] So were they eating together? Were they, you know, was Joseph putting their children on his knee and was it like this, this beautiful moment of camaraderie or social sort of warmth?

Morris Thurston [01:14:39] I would say it was more a meeting of political. What happens when President Bush meets with Harry Reid? I mean, they're cordial, right?

John Dehlin [01:14:51] Right.

Morris Thurston [01:14:53] But it's a political cordiality. And when Joseph was in Springfield, he met again with Stephen, a double Douglas. The first thing he did when he arrived was have dinner with Governor Ford. The party that you spoke of, they had a big party the night before at the house of William Prentiss, who was the court clerk and apparently a very well connected man in town who actually was remembered in their song as being jovial and very, very friendly to them the whole time. After the hearing was over, Judge Pope invited Butterfield and Joseph back into his office and met with them for an hour and talked to them about the case. After he delivered his opinion, and he asked Joseph to prophesy something. And he commented on how big, how Nauvoo had become so large and asked him to prophesy about how big it would become. And Joseph said, well, I won't do that. But when we went there, people told us that we couldn't make that a viable city at all. And now we have 15,000 people, and I won't prophesy how big we'll become. But Nauvoo will become a great city.

Guest [01:16:19] Come, come, ye saints. Nor toil nor labor Fear but joy when your way, O heart to you this journey may appear Great shall be as your day. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive do this and joy your hearts will swell all is well all is well. Do this and join our hearts will swell all is well all is well all is well all is well well all is well all is well. Sa.

Part Two: Legal Rights and Interstate Arrest

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 99

John Dehlin [00:00:12] Come, come, ye saints Nor toil nor neighbor Fear but joy when your way, O heart, to.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] What's next?

Morris Thurston [00:00:42] Well, maybe a postscript to Rockwell, because most people, they're intrigued with Oren Porter. Rockwell. Rockwell, after this all happened, was making his way back. He took off for the east coast, and he. Rockwell did, yeah, but he was very unhappy back there. He was away from his family.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] He's kind of exiled, Right?

Morris Thurston [00:01:04] He was exiled. And, you know, what's he going to do on the East? He's not really a missionary kind of a guy, you know. So he starts back, and he makes the mistake of going down the Ohio river to the Mississippi and then catching. Changing boats in St. Louis. And a bounty hunter spotted him.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] Oops.

Morris Thurston [00:01:24] And puts him under arrest and hauls him back to Independence. He languishes in jail for nine months in Independence, tries a couple of times to escape, gets caught. One time he got caught because he helped a fellow prisoner escape who was fatter and slower than he was. And in any event, when he finally is brought up for trial.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] But he wasn't just lynched.

Morris Thurston [00:01:52] No, he wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] That's a credit to Mission, which actually

Morris Thurston [00:01:55] is a credit to Missouri justice. Yeah, he was. And not only that, when he finally, after nine months, Alexander Doniphan again comes down and represents him and brings him up before the judge and for a hearing as to whether there's sufficient evidence to hold the trial. Now, this is not a trial, okay? This is a preliminary hearing. Do we have enough evidence to go forward? It doesn't take a lot of evidence to go forward. But they don't. They don't even have enough evidence to go forward. They really have nothing other than the fact that Porter Rockwell's a Mormon and that he was in Independence and maybe

John Dehlin [00:02:38] has a lore about him of being. Because even among Mormons, he has a lore of being kind of Joseph's vigilante kind of guy.

Morris Thurston [00:02:46] Well, you know, at that time.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] So there must have been that lore about him.

Morris Thurston [00:02:49] We don't. Well, maybe, but we don't. We know he was a bodyguard. We don't know about any murders or gun slinging that he had done at that time. Later we do. In fact, he kills one of the guards, the Carthage Grace, who was guarding the jail when Joseph was murdered. But he kills him under color of authority. He's with the sheriff of the county, and this idiot is riding down on them. The sheriff says, halt. The guy doesn't halt. And so Rockwell, under authority, pulls out his gun and shoots him. And they never do Try Rockwell for that, because they knew they couldn't convict him of that. But in the west, he does develop a gunslinger reputation, and rightly or wrongly, a number of deaths are attributed to him, and you'll have to read the books and determine that. But at this time, I don't think he's, you know, he's not known as someone who's, you know, killed a lot of people or a gunslinger or anything. He escapes from jail, and he makes his appearance. Not done escapes. He's released from jail, and when he comes back, he arrives in Nauvoo on Christmas Day. And this is in 1843. Actually, we're skipping a little ahead, but no, it's 42, I guess. During the festivities, a man with his hair long and falling over his shoulders and apparently drunk came in and acted like a Missourian. This is from Joseph's journal, which is written by his scribes. I requested the captain of the police to put him out of doors. A scuffle ensued, and I had an opportunity to look him full in the face, when, to my great surprise and joy untold, I discovered it was my long tried, warm, but cruelly persecuted friend, Orrin Porter Rockwell. And that's how he reunites with Joseph. And actually, that's from the history of the Church, not from the journals. But that's. That's their transcription of the journal.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] So he was, like, set free in Missouri.

Morris Thurston [00:04:59] Yep. And he came back.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] I wonder if that gave Joseph cause to wonder whether he'd be set free, too.

Morris Thurston [00:05:07] Well, you wonder.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] I mean, let's go back and face it and get this over with so that I can come back. You wonder, because, I mean, Joseph had less evidence if. If Rockwell couldn't be convicted. Certainly Joseph couldn't be convicted.

Morris Thurston [00:05:23] Well, but remember, at this point, there's no reason for Joseph to go back. I mean, he's free.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] Well, let's hear what happens.

Morris Thurston [00:05:30] And Missouri never does try to get him back on those charges. Even Missouri, I think, figured that's not something we have any jurisdiction over Joseph on.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:05:39] Remember the real. Even though he was let go on something of the technicality of the affidavit. The other reason.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Oh.

Morris Thurston [00:05:47] Is that he never was a fugitive from Illinois, From Missouri. So, you know, if anybody should have tried him for that, it should have been an Illinois court, and Illinois wasn't going to try him on those charges. There's no evidence that he. Any hard evidence.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:06:04] We'll kind of run through quickly, through the third extradition, because these three Things play together in the overall opinion of Joseph. The next time is in June of 1843. So now we're skipping again forward. And Joseph is up at Dixon, Illinois, about 170, 80 miles north of Nauvoo, visiting relatives of Emma, when another requisition comes from Missouri. They decided that they couldn't get him back on the Boggs case, but by golly, this treason thing is outstanding and he is a fugitive from justice on treason. So it comes in the Mormon judge there in Springfield. Judge Adams finds out about it, sends a runner to Nauvoo, makes the three day journey in like one and a half days, arrives to find Joseph gone, gives it to Hyrum. Hyrum dispatches William Clayton and Stephen Markham. And they take off and they have this wonderful ride that is described in great detail in the journals. But they are riding night and day, literally. They're maybe resting for like four hours to give their horses rest and them a little bit of shut eye and then they're pressing onward. And they get up to Dixon in record time and they inform Joseph that there are two people out trying to serve a warrant. A Sheriff Reynolds from Missouri and a Constable Wilson from Illinois, from Carthage. And Joseph is fearful again that he'll be basically kidnapped and hauled back before he can have a fair trial. And he says, well, I think I'll wait here because I'm afraid of getting out on the road where I don't have any friends at all. And so he waits. And posing as Mormon missionaries, Reynolds and Wilson make their way north. And they keep asking, where's Joseph? Where's Joseph? And eventually they find him at Dixon, at the home of the Wassons. And they arrest Joseph and they kind of beat up on him because I think he was trying to escape. They tell him he can't even see his wife and children and say goodbye. But I think he does.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Do guys from Missouri have the right to go arrest somebody in another state?

Morris Thurston [00:08:42] Well, remember, maybe I didn't say this. That's a good question. Actually. Another requisition was sent by Governor Reynolds from Missouri up to Governor Ford. Ford at this time. And so there was a legitimate paper there.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] But doesn't Ford have to agree?

Morris Thurston [00:09:01] Well, Ford is supposed to agree if the papers are in order. He is supposed to agree. He really doesn't make a decision himself on the merits. He looks to see if these are good papers, and if they are, he allows them to be served. And then it's up to Joseph to, to ask for a habeas corpus to determine if there is really a problem. The courts can decide whether the papers are in order, but it's really not up to the.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] So the guy's going to arrest Joseph would say, now, Joseph, if you want to file a habeas corpus, you have the right to do that before we haul you back to Missouri.

Morris Thurston [00:09:37] That's what they should say.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Really?

Morris Thurston [00:09:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] They should read him his rights and then, well, do you want an attorney?

Morris Thurston [00:09:43] And we didn't have the rules we have today about reading people's rights.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] But they're going to arrest him. I assume what they. What they want to do is get him on a horse, tie him to it, and take him back to Missouri.

Morris Thurston [00:09:57] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:09:58] And you're saying they don't have the full rights to do that. Joseph has an intermediate intermediary right to. To get a lawyer and to whatever. Yes, but they want to contain him such that they can make sure that he is now within the legal system of Illinois or brought back to Missouri, but not escaping.

Morris Thurston [00:10:19] Right. So they. They arrest him. He says, I want to see my lawyer. And they say, no, you're not going to see a lawyer. You're not going to see anybody. And they haul him back to Dixon. They throw him into a tavern. Now, he had previously arranged for a lawyer. Joseph's no dummy. And so he had a guy on retainer, he actually paid him, what, 50 bucks, I think, to be on retainer named Southwick from Dixon. So Joseph gets hauled in there, and of course, the first thing he does, he sends Markham and Clayton out to look for lawyers, and he hollers out the window, help. I'm being imprisoned against my wishes. And so all around this little town of Dixon, you know, people are scurrying. And Southwick, I believe it is, gets a rid of habeas corpus from a local magistrate, which says that Joseph is to be brought before Judge Caton in a major city. And Catton would be one of these traveling circuit judges, and that's where they would hear the merits. See, a justice of the peace basically can issue the writ of habeas corpus. Any magistrate can, but it's a judge, and usually a higher judge that actually determines whether there's just cause to send it back, whether the warrants in effect is right or not. So now Reynolds and Wilson, you know, oh, boy, now we got this warrant. We got to go see judge Caton. So they reluctantly set off, and still Joseph thinks that they're going to. Somewhere along the line, when they get out of town, going to take off with him. Him they get as far as Pawpaw Grove one day's journey and they spend the night and they want to hear the folks there want to hear Joseph preach. And Reynolds and Wilson says, you're not going to have our prisoner preach to you. And at that point, the sort of old guy that leads the head of the group there, his name is David Towne, an aged gentleman, we're told, stands up and says, you damned infernal puke. We'll learn you to come here and interrupt. Gentlemen, sit down there, pointing to a very low chair and sit still. Don't open your head till General Smith gets through talking. You cannot kidnap men here, even if you do in Missouri. And if you attempt it here, well, there's a committee in this grove that will sit on your case. And sir, it is the highest tribunal in the United States. As from its decision, there is no appeal. So apparently Joseph gets a chance to address them.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] This reflects the state's right, the pride of the state. You know, back in the day, I read that like during the Civil War, people from Virginia didn't refer to themselves as Americans, they refer to themselves as Virginians. So it sounds like a big part of Illinois's defense of Joseph was just pure state pride.

Morris Thurston [00:13:28] Yeah, he's. He's. If. No, for all of his fault, he is an Illinoisan and Reynolds is a Missouri puke. And you know, and he shouldn't be getting high handed with them. If they want Joseph to speak, by golly, he's going to speak.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] Okay.

Morris Thurston [00:13:43] Well, while they're there, they learn that Judge Caton has actually gone back to or gone back east on vacation. So now they've got this habeas corpus and it doesn't make any sense because they're not going to chase him back east. So they go back to Dixon, to the same magistrate that issued it and explained, and he issues a warrant returnable before the nearest tribunal authorized to hear writs of habeas corpus. This gives them the freedom so that if the next judge turns out to be gone, the they can at least go around until they find a judge and they take off. Meanwhile, Joseph sends William Clayton on another hard ride back to Nauvoo. Riding day and night, he arrives in Nauvoo on a Sunday. They're having a big meeting on the green and everyone's there. He goes up to the podium where Hyrum's sitting and you can just sit, see how this would play out. If you're sitting there among the crowd, you know, by now the people in Nauvoo know what's going on. They know that the law is after Joseph. They know that Clayton has been sent to tell Joseph. And now they see Clayton coming back, and he's talking. He's whispering in Hyrum Smith's ear. And I'm sure they're just all wondering what's going on. And Hyrum gets up, interrupts the speaker and says, I'd like to volunteers for an important task to meet me at Masonic hall in 15 minutes. And the meeting breaks up, and over 300 men show up, basically ready to do whatever they're asked to do. And there's too many to even fit into the hall. They adjourn to the green, and Hyrum explains what's happened. And immediately that night, that Same day, some 75 men take off with Captain Dan Jones on the Mate of Iowa. And they go up the river, looking at every ship that comes down to see if somehow Joseph is aboard one of those ships. And another 150 men go with CC Rich, spread out across the countryside on their way to Dixon, looking for the Prophet. So you've got the party with the Prophet coming back. You've got the men going up looking for him. And one other thing that happens. Markham and Joseph swear out writs against Reynolds and Wilson for beating them both up when they accosted them for assault. And Reynolds and Wilson are put under the arrest of the sheriff of Dixon. So you've got this unusual party, Joseph being the prisoner of Reynolds and Wilson, Reynolds and Wilson being the prisoner of the Dixon sheriff or constable, and they're all headed toward a judge somewhere, and hundreds of Mormons are out looking for them along the way. Joseph, who's no dummy as far as the law goes, convinces his lawyers, who are accompanying him, that they should go to Nauvoo, because under the Nauvoo charter and the regulations promulgated in Nauvoo, Nauvoo has the authority to hear writs of habeas corpus. And his lawyers agree. And so the whole party sets off for Nauvoo, and you can just see Reynolds and Wilson saying, this can't be right. But what are they going to do? They're basically in prisoners also. And by the time they.

Missouri Agents, Nauvoo Courts, and Legal Maneuvering

John Dehlin [00:17:27] Why are they prisoners to Joseph's lawyers?

Morris Thurston [00:17:29] They're not. They're prisoners to the constable. But the constable's on Joseph's side. And basically, I think that the lawyers and everyone is saying, this is where we're going to go. Oh, and the other thing, the other practical reason why they're going to go there is as they're going along, the Nauvoo Legion guys start meeting up with them. And when they arrive, Joseph says, I'm not going to Missouri this time. These are my boys. And of course, by the time 150 men come there, Reynolds and Wilson even realize that they're not going to pull this business about we're taking Joseph. So when they come into Nauvoo, this is another great scene that I think would make an incredible movie scene. The people have been alerted that they're coming. The Nauvoo Legion decorate the saddles and bridles with flowers of the prairie. Joseph's horse, favorite horse, is brought out to him. Emma and Hyrum ride out and the Nauvoo Brass Band marches out to meet them. And then Joseph mounts his horse. Joseph, Hyrum and Emma enter the city. The Nauvoo Brass Band comes along, and the crowds are lining the streets and cheering. Here's our prophet back. And Reynolds and Wilson, you know, sort of hang dog walking along, I suppose, or riding along behind. When they get there to Nauvoo, Joseph puts on a nice big dinner. Many people invites Reynolds and Wilson to sit at the head of the table. And Emma and Mother Smith wait on them. So, you know, he shows them the courtesy that they hadn't shown him. He also, however, they hold a hearing before the Nauvoo Municipal Court, of which Joseph is Chief justice. Now, Joseph, of course, would recuse himself. He wouldn't sit on his own case. But other members of the Apostles and other leading citizens of Nauvoo are the other members of the court. They're the same guys that are the City Council of Nauvoo. And they hear extensive evidence about Missouri and all the ills and why Joseph was under no sense guilty of treason to Missouri. And why do they hear all this evidence on the merits when on a habeas corpus hearing? Because Nauvoo City Council, who are these same guys, remember, have passed an ordinance saying that in the case where it appears that an arrest has been made out of private peak or out of prejudice or unjust, whatever you call it, you can go behind the writ and look at the merits to determine it. And this is so unusual because almost no other court does this. Some legal scholars have looked at it. Elder Oaks has looked at it and said that it isn't unheard of in this era. And it may not be unheard of, but it certainly went beyond what the ordinary average lawyer or citizen thought.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] Was appropriate, probably far beyond.

Morris Thurston [00:20:41] Far beyond, yeah. And so, once again, Joseph is dismissed. Reynolds and Wilson are outraged. They go back to Carthage. They go back to Springfield. They tell Ford, look, you've got to do something about this. And Ford basically says, look, I'm not going to get involved in this. As far as I'm concerned, your case is done. They went to a court. The court said there was nothing to it. I'm going to let it lie. And it was let lie. There are a few things that I think are kind of fun. The day after he arrived, Joseph, brimming with confidence, goes and addresses all of his people to tell them what happened. He tells the whole story about what happened. I just pulled out a couple of quotes. And listen, Joseph said a lot of very inspiring things. But I love these quotes because I think it shows the new militancy that Joseph has kind of undertaken. He says, before I will bear this unhallowed persecution any longer, before I will be dragged away again among my enemies for trial, I. I will spill the last drop of blood in my veins and will see my enemies in hell. To bear it any longer would be a sin, and I will not bear it any longer. Shall we bear it any longer? And there's one universal no that runs throughout the entire vast assembly like a loud peal of thunder. And then I love this one because I'm a lawyer. I wish the lawyer who says we have no powers in Nauvoo may be choked to death with his own words. Don't employ lawyers or pay them money for their knowledge. For I have learned they don't know anything. I know more than they all. And my comment on that as a lawyer is twofold.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] First of all, everybody hates lawyers until they need one.

Morris Thurston [00:22:49] Joseph, he did know a lot about law. He learned a lot as chief justice of the court there. He was a smart guy, and he was probably smarter than a lot of his lawyers, but he was also smart enough to hire the best lawyers. And he probably also knew the old adage, which is that any lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client. And I think that he just kind of let his tongue get running away with him a little bit. But I still think it's a fun quote. And most Mormon lawyers pull that out at one time or another. Or most clients of Mormon lawyers probably pull it out.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] Sure.

Morris Thurston [00:23:29] So another thing he said is, the Constitution of the United States declares that the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be denied. Deny me the writ of habeas corpus, and I will fight with gun, sword, cannon, whirlwind and thunder until they are used up like Kilkenny cats. We have more power than most charters confer because we have power to go behind the writ and try the merits of the case. And that's what really bothered the other non Mormons in Illinois. And so the Alton Telegraph newspaper, for example, wrote, we regard the location of this unprincipled scoundrel in Illinois as one of the greatest calamities that ever befell this state. He and those over whom he exercises the most unlimited control now hold the balance of political power in this state governed by no political principles whatever. They at every election throw themselves in the market like cattle for sale. And when a justice is attempted to be visited upon them, the arm of the law is found to be too short to reach them. And I think that kind of summarizes how the anti Mormons felt and perhaps gives us the setting for how the outrage spilled over when Joseph and the others destroyed the Nauvoo Expositor the following year in 1844.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] Yeah, I mean, you know, a Mormon who grows up with the superficial retelling of the history sort of just looks at it simply as Mormons were God's chosen people, Joseph was God's chosen prophet. And so of course Satan is going to persecute them and put throw Joseph in jail unjustly and persecute the Mormons because they're, because they're so good and righteous. But we know that in Missouri, the problem, one of the major problems other than the, you know, there was the economic problems, there was the political problems, there was the religious problems of competition between religious sects, you know, all sorts of issues, you know, but, but there's also the Saints saying, no, you think Missouri is your place, but God's given us this land as our inheritance and this is our land now. You know, that was a pretty significant component to the anger that the Saints and Joseph ultimately met. And it sounds like Illinois, there was at least some similar justifications that people were basically saying, you Mormons think you can get away with anything. You think that you can have your state and your charter and your city and your profit and that you're beyond the law. And not only does it seem that you implicitly believe that, but the rhetoric used by your leaders explicitly states that. And so not to ever justify cruelty or lynching or murder, but just from a human perspective, we have to sort of look at, look at the full situation and say that we contributed to the emotions that led to the persecution. True.

Morris Thurston [00:26:50] I think that certainly is true. I think that, you know, it doesn't do us any good to take a simplistic view of history that way. And I'm not saying that I don't understand where Joseph Smith was coming from. I'm sure he felt terribly persecuted. He had been thrown in jail. There were people who were trying to put him down, there's no question about that. And he did achieve a certain degree of authority and notoriety. And it's a natural human tendency to want to use the advantages that you have. But this didn't sit well with the others in this state. And I think it's a lesson we all can learn today. You know, I'm from California, and whenever I come to Utah, it seems to me that there's more prejudice against Mormons here by far than there is in California because of the majority position that the Mormons have in the state. May not last forever, but at least for the time being. And you read in the Salt Lake Tribune especially, but even the comments in the Deseret News sometimes, and the people who blog, who sign on to the articles and the vitriol that goes back and forth between Mormon and non Mormon, and yet we've learned a lot since, I think, since Illinois. The church tries to avoid as much as possible political, outright political issues as a church, and yet we have members obviously who are church members who are political, but you don't hear the prophet standing up and telling us which president to vote for and that sort of thing. So we've come a long ways, but we hadn't learned all those lessons in those days. And unfortunately, it eventually cost Joseph his life. And I'm with you that nothing he ever said or did justified murder. But it did tend to make even ordinary citizens rather upset at this clannish group of Mormons who seemed to stand above the law.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] So I don't know if you're comfortable, say it if you're not, but I'll probably never have someone who knows as much about the law and Joseph Smith and church history in my office here in Logan, Utah as I do now. Do you want to just take a couple minutes and just talk about the, you know, the, the events leading the Carthage and the martyrdom just sort of, to sort of tie the legal bow around his experience, or is that.

Morris Thurston [00:29:25] Well, I don't think we. Maybe just to put the final comment to it, of course, when the Nauvoo Expositor, as I'm sure most people who listen realize, was an anti Mormon newspaper in Nauvoo, that said Very scurrilous things about Joseph and the others. And we can argue about whether some of these scurrilous things were true. But the Nauvoo Municipal Council, of which Joseph was mayor, determined that the newspaper was a nuisance, a public nuisance, and ordered that it be destroyed. So once again, acting under color of law and all of these things that I've told you about, Joseph absolutely acted under the law. He did not act as a mob or he used the law for his own ends. And under color of law, it was declared a public nuisance and was destroyed. This caused, of course, outrage and lawsuits against him for having exceeded the bounds of the law and was it proper use of the law. And this is where he eventually decided to surrender himself to the law and be taken to Carthage. He could have left. He was on the other side of the Mississippi river. But he went back. And when he was put in the Carthage jail, it was for his own protection. He had been staying in the Hamilton House, the inn there. But they were feared that he couldn't be protected. And Governor Ford had gone to Nauvoo to get an assurance from the leaders in Nauvoo that there would be no riots by Mormons out in the countryside. They would stay in Nauvoo. Governor Ford sent his emissary to the folks from Warsaw, Tom Sharps, that were marching toward Carthage, telling them to disband. It was the Warsaw militias. Disband. Go home. You don't need to be there. The Mormons are not going to come and get Smith out of jail. But instead they did not disband. And members, now acting as a mob and not as a militia, continued on to Carthage, where we're pretty sure the Nauvoo Greys who were guarding the jail had. Carthage Greys had informed them that they would have blanks loaded in their guns and would step aside essentially and not put up resistance when they stormed the jail. Why do we know this? Because I've gone back to the original transcripts of the. Well, transcripts, the notes of the trial of the murderers of Joseph Smith. And one of the witnesses was Wilson, who was a Carthage Gray guard, the captain of the Grays. And when he was asked point blank by the prosecuting attorney, did you have blanks in your guns? And let it be known that you had blanks in your guns that day, he elected not to answer on the grounds that it would tend to incriminate him. And no, it wasn't Wilson. It was. It was another man whose name has now slipped. My Mind, but it was this very same man, ironically, who was the one that Porter Rockwell later shot dead. So there's almost no question that Joseph was killed outside the law, even though he had always submitted himself to the law and was in the Carthage jail.

Joseph Smith's Complicated Relationship with the Law

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Not always submitted himself to the law.

Morris Thurston [00:33:00] Well, submitted himself. There was the one period of time when he was on the lam in connection with the second extradition, but that's really the only period where he didn't at least submit, you know, get a legal ruling. You can argue about whether the ruling was just.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

Morris Thurston [00:33:19] But you know, and what about the

John Dehlin [00:33:22] arguments that he had the right to destroy the actual newspapers themselves, but not the printing press, not the property?

Morris Thurston [00:33:29] Well, I think that's probably where Elder Oaks comes down. That. That there was justification for doing the. For shutting down the paper, but not justification for scattering the type. And that Joseph probably could have been convicted of destruction of property, you know, which is no big deal. You pay the fine, you pay for it, whatever. But you don't get. You don't. You don't get lynched, you don't get hung, you don't get shot.

John Dehlin [00:33:57] But he wasn't held for that.

Morris Thurston [00:34:00] Well, no, he was held for treason. Again, this. This mysterious treason claim in Missouri, in. In Illinois.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] Okay, okay.

Morris Thurston [00:34:10] The charge in Illinois once again, was treason. And why treason?

John Dehlin [00:34:13] By who again?

Morris Thurston [00:34:15] By other. By the people of. Well, there were a number of lawsuits, and some of them were lawsuits brought by the owners or proprietors of the Nava Expositor. But there were other lawsuits brought by other officials and they brought charges of treason. Yes. Now, I've got my partner, Joe Bentley, who's working with me on this. This is his case, and he could tell you all kinds of stuff about that. But suffice it to say that treason once again is a non bailable offense. So the Mormons couldn't bail Joseph out of custody, but at this point, he was in protective custody. And again, irony of ironies, he wrote a letter to Orville Browning saying, would you please come and represent me in this case? He intended to stand trial and to try to beat it, and if not beat it, pay the penalty, because he

John Dehlin [00:35:10] had confidence that he'd probably win.

Morris Thurston [00:35:12] Well, I don't know that his confidence was that high. He would have confidence if he were standing trial in Nauvoo. I suspect he probably thought he wouldn't win in Carthage. But what would he lose? He would lose for having destroyed a printing press and whatever damages would go along with that, and maybe that would even include Some jail time, but maybe not. That isn't getting murdered, that isn't getting hung. And the treason claim, that had to be bogus. I mean, I don't think that he would have been convicted of that. But we'll never know now.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] So here's the big dilemma I have on a more personal level. You know, you go to Carthage jail and you hear the church missionaries say that Joseph was held without any grounds and it was a scurrilous, groundless lawsuit, and there was no reason. They never talk about the Nauvoo exposure. They never talk about any of that.

Morris Thurston [00:36:15] I'm not sure that's true, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Is that okay? That's when I went there.

Morris Thurston [00:36:19] I haven't been there lately with missionaries there because I was there with the Joseph Smith papers.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] I went a few years back, but

Morris Thurston [00:36:27] we certainly got the full story when I was there from the other historians who were there. And we were on the payroll of the church.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] But I mean, the missionaries.

Morris Thurston [00:36:33] Well, sometimes missionaries don't know the whole story. And I've had that same experience. I've had missionaries who haven't known the whole story and haven't told the whole story.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] But if you look at this from a personal perspective, even the way you sort of narrated it, you said it was an anti Mormon newspaper. Well, really, it was started by, as you know, William Law, who was second counselor in the First Presidency. So it would be, you know, by today's standards, it would be like Henry Eyring leaving the church or, you know, James E. Faust, you know, and basically saying, I was with the prophet. He was practicing polygamy, but he's been denying it publicly. And I'm here to tell you in the Navo Expositor that he was practicing polygamy and he was preying on young immigrants from Europe and from England and telling them that if they didn't become his wife, that bad things would happen to them. Well, the historical record sort of validates all of that. So to sort of label it as an anti Mormon paper created by anti Mormons telling a bunch of lies, which I'm not saying you did. You know, that's where it's frustrating, because members sort of say, Joseph went like a lamb to the slaughter. It was pure and innocent as a driven snow. But that's not really even close to accurate. It's a very complex, difficult situation that most members have never been given even a bit of a full sort of comprehensive understanding or even a high level, fair treatment of what the circumstances were surrounding Joseph's martyrdom Is that true? And do you wish it were different? Can you empathize with the frustrations that some people feel? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Morris Thurston [00:38:18] Well, I think it was your cousin that told you. You have a great gift for asking compound questions.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] I do, I do.

Morris Thurston [00:38:25] So There was about 100 parts to that question, of which I'll probably forget 99 of them.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] But

Morris Thurston [00:38:32] first of all, in characterizing that as an anti Mormon newspaper, I merely meant that some newspapers are pro Mormon, some newspapers are essential or neutral, and others are out to destroy the church. And even though William Law had been a counselor in the presidency, he was clearly out to destroy the church. He'd set up his own alternative church and was seeking converts for it.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] But he still believed in the Book of Mormon.

Morris Thurston [00:39:00] Yes, but it wasn't the church that Joseph Smith led.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] He felt like Joseph was a fallen prophet. Yes, Restoration believed in them. LDS restoration.

Morris Thurston [00:39:11] Okay, so maybe by saying anti Mormon, I was shorthanding what I should have said, which is anti Joseph Smith led Mormons. Okay, but he was clearly anti Joseph Smith. And so that was kind of like the first part of your question. And then where did it go? Oh, pure as the driven snow. This was written by John Taylor as like a eulogy for the prophet. Now, when you go to a funeral, how many times do you hear about the dead guy and all the bad things?

John Dehlin [00:39:46] No, there's no problem with that.

Morris Thurston [00:39:47] You hear the really nice, nice.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] That's fine, that's fine. But. But I mean, we're members of the church. We have a lot of commitment to it. Shouldn't we have a basic understanding of the circumstances that led to his death? Yes, and I'd say 95% of Mormons don't even know the basics. Well, probably never heard of the Nauvoo Expositor and just sort of view it as like the whole rest of Mormon history. Good Mormons, God's chosen people, God's prophet being Satan going after them.

Morris Thurston [00:40:19] You know, you actually are asking a very interesting philosophical question. Obviously, my own personality is, I have to know. I have to know the truth. That's why I've studied these things. I could not live my life as a Mormon and not know the history behind the claims of the church. But am I any happier because I know it? In other words, the other philosophical question I ask you is, do you have to be interested in history? Do you have to know these things to get the spiritual uplift that some people get from reading the Book of Mormon and the fine things that are preached and I do believe that for the most part, they're extraordinarily fine things that are preached from our pulpits each Sunday about being good Christians, living good lives, husbands being faithful to their wives, parents taking care of their children. All of these things are great things about our religion, taking care of the sick and the poor. Do you need to know all the history to be happy? And in justification and in defense, I suppose, of those people who haven't studied history, I say fine, if that's the way they want it, that's up to them. For me, I need to know the history. And I absolutely would agree that we as a church should not try to hide the history, that we should lay it out there. And that's one of the reasons that I'm so happy and enthusiastic about the Joseph Smith papers, is that this will put out the primary data from which people can make decisions about Joseph. Now, of course, there's other primary data that aren't a part of the papers. We don't publish what others were writing in Nauvoo about this time. And that's all important as well, but at least the words of Joseph will be out there.

Reflections on History and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [00:42:18] So to end, One of the things that's most uplifting to me is to hear someone like a Leonard Arrington say at the end of his life, in spite of all I've been through, in spite of all the troubles, I remain having a firm conviction of the truthfulness of the church and that Joe Smith was a prophet, etc. What can you share with us in some closing thoughts, some quotes, or just some stories, or your personal feelings that in spite of all the good and bad, but especially the bad or the tough stuff that you've read, you know, the stuff that has maintained and even strengthened your conviction as to Joseph's mantle as a prophet of God and as someone who deserves our love and admiration and respect,

Morris Thurston [00:43:12] I think what I have learned that the more I have studied Joseph Smith, the more I feel that he is an extraordinary man who was inspired of God. Now, I don't purport to know myself how revelation works. My own feeling is that it's not quite as direct a pipeline as most Mormons feel. I don't think that God takes the hand of Joseph and moves it on the page to write the words down. I think Joseph was a human being capable of making mistakes, and I suspect that he did. It's probably not my place to judge what was a mistake and what was not, because I wasn't there at the time. I'm not A prophet. But just as a lawyer and looking at these legal cases, I can tell you that had I, knowing what I know today, represented Joseph in some of these things, I would have been cautioning him. Don't get ahead of yourself here, Joseph. This doesn't look good. These are bad. This is going to put you in bad stead. Remember what happened in Missouri. Let's not let it happen in Nauvoo. But that's easy for me to say 160, 70 years after the fact, and a lot less easy for Joseph, who was in his 30s at the time. And after all, I'm nearly double that age. Joseph would not necessarily have known that. And so here's this man that has produced this remarkable book, the. The Book of Mormon. A remarkable series of revelations, even discounting the ones that were basically personal revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants, but the ones that weren't. A remarkable series of revelations, a remarkable series of discourses in Nauvoo from the King Follet discourse on down, stuff that were so far ahead of his time. In addition, was a political man who understood politics. Politics, who ran for president, who had a political platform that he was working on and actually in many respects, quite a progressive platform, and who at the same time was faced with these 100 to 200 legal cases that had to be just sucking up his energies in the case of the extraditions in particular, making him fearful that he'd be sent back and murdered in Missouri. Whether those fears were justified or not, I believe he honestly felt that way. If not, he would have gone back and faced trial. So.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] And just to add, he was mayor, at least at some points, you know, head of the legion, general of the legion, and he had acquired at least 20 or 30 wives by this point towards the end of his life. So, I mean, I just want to add to the fact that this man had a lot going on and an

Morris Thurston [00:46:02] incredible amount going on, and. And he learned a lot about the law. And as a lawyer, that impresses me. And so, yes, even though I think Joseph was a human being, I have faith, and I have faith in the work that he created. By their works, you shall know them. I'm sitting from the seat of someone who's been in Mormonism his entire life, but I think that Mormonism does far more good than ill. Not to say it never does ill or that members of the church never do ill, but that basically it is a good thing. And so that's where my lot is cast.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Well, Morris Thurston, I just want to thank you so much for coming on. Mormon Stories. This has been fascinating.

Morris Thurston [00:46:48] Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] Come, come, ye saints? Nor toil nor labor? Fear but joy? When your way,

Morris Thurston [00:47:19] O heart?

John Dehlin [00:47:21] To you this journey may appear? Grace shall be as your day? Tis better far for us to strive? Our useless cares? From us to drive to this and joy? Oh, your hearts will swell? All is well? All is well? Your hearts will swell? All is well? All is well? All is well? Well? All is well? All is well? All is well? Sam.

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