Introducing Ann and the New Order Mormon Community

Guest [00:00:09] The depth of your dreams, the height of your. He's been. He's been active throughout this whole time.

Ann [00:00:15] Oh, yeah. So was I.

Guest [00:00:17] Right? Right.

Ann [00:00:18] So was I. I mean, but he

Guest [00:00:20] was at peace with his faith and he, you know.

Ann [00:00:23] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Guest [00:00:25] So as long as you've known him, there's never been a time where he was thinking about leaving or feeling disenchanted or disillusioned?

Ann [00:00:32] Not that I know of, no.

Guest [00:00:33] Okay. Wow. So how'd you get out of it? Had you or have you? What, does it stop there or were there some ways you were able to piece things back together and maybe this is, you know, where Nordo Mormon comes in. We can either have you just keep telling your story if there's any semi resolution or continuation, or we can use this as a time to introduce New Order Mormonism and then loop that back to what it all meant to you. Take it however you feel comfortable.

Ann [00:01:12] Okay. Well, The. One of the things that the New Order Mormon board did do for me was it gave me a place, what I felt was a safe place to process this stuff, you know, instead of dumping it all on my husband, which is what I have been doing for probably the better part of a year and a half, all of my frustrations and anxiety and everything, I just sort of dumped on him because I did somebody to listen to me.

Guest [00:01:52] Sure.

Ann [00:01:53] And I didn't know, you know, had to talk about this. I'm a talker.

Guest [00:01:57] Yeah.

Ann [00:01:57] And I'm not the stoic, you know, keep it all bottled up and, and deal with it on your own type. I, you know, I needed. I needed to talk this stuff out. And, you know, he was the only one I felt I could talk to. One of the things the board gave me was a place, another place to do that, that I felt was a safe place to do that. One of the things. Well, you know, this is probably a good place to just mention what is a New Order Mormon and the purpose of the website. You know, we've been throwing that term around through this whole conversation and without ever really talking about what it is. The New Order Mormons are people who no longer believe some or much or all of the doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural or social or family reasons. And that also doesn't fit often with what you expect from people who are members or, you know, disaffected members of the church, is that there are people who, you know, their heart is no longer in the faith, but they don't want to leave.

Guest [00:03:34] Right.

Ann [00:03:36] And you know, the stereotype of the person who becomes disaffected from the church is someone who, you know, goes off to rfm, recovery from Mormonism and you know, cusses and yells and screams and talks about how horrible the church is and it ruined his life and, or her life and you know, takes up drinking and swearing and all manner of unpleasant sins and, and see that's what happens to you when you lose faith.

Guest [00:04:11] Right.

Ann [00:04:12] But not everybody who loses faith in the church does that.

Guest [00:04:17] Yeah.

Ann [00:04:18] Or in, loses faith in the, in the doctrines of the church. I think it's, I think it's interesting that you can lose faith in the doctrines but still believe in the church very much. I know a couple of people that are like that. They still, that the church is really a force for good, that it's done good for them and been good for their families. And if it's not quite all it claims to be, well what is. So having that kind of safe place to talk to other people who knew that's the other thing is that this can be a very lonely thing. You can think you're the only one out there who feels this way, that you know, that you, I mean, you know, you hear about the anti Mormons and the ex Mormons and, and all that and, and you know, if you've been a believer for any period of time, those, that those are painted with a very, you know, broad and negative brush and you don't want to go there.

Guest [00:05:26] Right.

Ann [00:05:27] You know, I mean that's just not where you want to go. And one of the main purposes of the New Order Mormon board is to support people who want to stay, to help them find the things that are good, to help them have a safe place to talk about their frustrations, to give them ideas for setting boundaries, for maintaining respectful relationships with their families. You know, and, and that was just a real, that was a real help to me and I've been doing it long enough now that I'm one of the old guard there now.

Guest [00:06:12] So, and so and so it's. So New Order Mormons are people who have lost a significant, if not a large portion of their faith in, in the doctrines or teachings or truthfulness of the capital T of the church. But you say stay for cultural or social or family reasons, is that right?

Ann [00:06:37] Yes.

Guest [00:06:37] Now an average Mormon is going to have very little respect for that decision right there. I'm like a fifth or sixth generation Mormon, depending on which line you count from. You know, I was raised with this notion of there's no such Thing as a buffet Mormon, you don't get to choose. You're either in or out. You're either hot or cold, or you'll be spewed forth from the mouth. So I can hear all sorts of orthodox Mormons as you talk about this saying, no, no, no, no, no, sister, you don't get it. You're either in it or you need to leave. But this staying for cultural or social, it's just weak and it's weak and it's disingenuous and, you know, it's not the way the Lord wants it. What would your response be to that?

Ann [00:07:31] Well, honestly, that makes me laugh. I'm sorry.

Guest [00:07:34] No, it's good. It's good.

Ann [00:07:35] I'm just, you know, you know, it's just. That's just silly. There's no such thing as a buffet Mormon. Of course there is. This. Everybody is. Everybody is. There was a wonderful post by Erin Brown just the other day on By Common Consent about how super righteous he is because he wasn't going to watch the Super Bowl. Of course, it was very tongue in cheek. But, you know, and how people build up in their minds the extreme importance of the commandments that they happen to be very good at keeping. You know, tithing is really easy when you have a lot of money. And keeping the Sabbath day holy is easy if you don't happen to like football. And, you know, the word of wisdom is easy to keep if you've never developed a taste for beer or wine. I mean, it's just. Who wants to take up smoking anyway, except as a form of rebellion? I mean, there are. What did Robert Kirby say? There were like 10 genuine Mormons. There used to be 11, but one of them died. Everybody's a buffet Mormon to some extent. Admittedly, some of us are more so than others. One of the things that I have, one of the things that I've taken, that I've applied to my experience with the LDS Church is my experience with Al Anon. When I was married to my first husband, he was an alcoholic. And I spent probably the better part of a year actively working on my own recovery through Al Anon. And one of the things, one of the slogans that always stuck with me was take what you like and leave the rest of the. And if other people don't get to define my religious experience for me, they don't get to. They can try, but they don't get to. I'm not a danger to the kingdom of God. I'm not that important. You know, I can sit in A pew on Sunday and sing the hymns of Zion. And if a particularly obnoxious talk comes up, I can quietly excuse myself and leave. There are any number of places that I can serve. I have been open now with both of my bishops since this has happened, and both of them have gladly extended to me callings that don't require teaching or bearing testimony and yet allow me to be part of the community and to serve. You know, if they want to take it up with my bishop, they're more than welcome to.

Guest [00:10:51] So you, you're candid with your bishop and you, you request not to teach or be in a position where you have to bear testimony. That's interesting. Yes, yes, I want to talk, I want to talk more about that. But, but I love, so I love your point that, that people get to define their rules of engagement and what being a Mormon means to them and that they should never let anyone else decide that for them. So I love, I love that. Let me, let me ask you a follow up, though. You know, if somebody, if somebody doesn't believe that the Book of Mormon is historical, doesn't believe that, you know, Gordon B. Hinckley is God's one true prophet on the earth, that the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints isn't the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and all others an abomination? You know, take the major truth claims of the church. You know, if you don't believe at least those five or ten fundamental things, then what claim do you have to, to associate yourself with Mormons or claim to be one or, or, you know, to affiliate in the community as someone who everyone would presume is a person of faith when, when you don't even agree on those basics, what's the point? Why?

Ann's Personal Faith Journey in the Church

Ann [00:12:15] Well, well, there's Jesus. Okay.

Guest [00:12:21] Yeah, but we're talking about Mormonism. Oh.

Ann [00:12:22] So, yeah, just.

Guest [00:12:24] Sorry, I'm kidding.

Ann [00:12:25] You know, John, Bad John, there's Jesus, you know, he's kind of a fundamental part of a whole lot of religious traditions, not just the Latter Day Saints. There's also, even if you don't believe in Jesus, there's the idea of God and service. What claim do I have to membership in the church? Baptism. I've been baptized. Okay. And confirmed. And as far as I know, that's what you need to be a member.

Guest [00:13:03] Right? No, it's very, it's fascinating because, you know, if the church doctrines were a pyramid and we were to say that the most fundamental things were at the base of the pyramid, as someone who's grown up Mormon and been an active Mormon my whole life. You know, here, listen to what I just did. What did I put at the foundation of the pyramid? I put Book of Mormon historicity, Joseph Smith, truthfulness of the one true church. Those are the things that I put at the bottom of the pyramid as the base litmus test. And what you just did is sort of turn that on its head and say those are the points of the pyramid at the top. If you're going to be building a foundation, you know, why can't we start with the foundation of God and. Or Christ as enough to unify us?

Ann [00:14:00] One of the things that I think is so important about what you're trying to do, John, is trying to build bridges. You know, one of the things about being lds, the idea of being a peculiar or chosen people and, you know, maybe spending, you know, all those generations out there in the middle of nowhere is the idea of separateness from the other, from people who are, you know, you are either us or not us. And now all of a sudden among us, there are not us. And. I think it's, I think it's good for both sides. I mean, for the people who become disaffected and angry and want to leave or not, and for the people who are true and faithful and want to stay, to try to come to some kind of understanding of each other, even if that understanding is only the sense that our experiences are real, they're not malicious, and neither of us is deluded. You know, and I think it's important for me to throw out here, you know, I bear no malice at all toward the church, toward the missionaries who taught me. I went through a very, very angry period, but that was, you know, I have so much respect for people who believe. And I'm not saying that, you know, you know, oh, isn't that sweet? They still believe. I don't mean that in a patronizing way. That's one of the reasons I really still enjoy reading in the bloggernackle, which is almost entirely composed of, you know, aside from, you know, the couple of flies in the ointment like Saint Me, Faithful Latter Day Saints, their faith and in the, and the depth of their faith. That's very inspiring to me. It, it doesn't, it doesn't change anything for me, you know, but it is, it's, it's very inspiring. I learn a lot from, from people who believe.

Guest [00:16:58] Yeah. So the passage in the Book of Mormon about, and there were no matter of ites among them sounds like this is a call. Even though you represent a branch, you're calling for less judgment, less segmentation, more bridges, more seeking to understand.

Ann [00:17:23] Oh, I think. Well and see. And I'm not the calling for. I want to be real specific about that. That's something that I hope for among people. You know, let's all sing Kumbaya together. Okay. I mean, I grew up in the 60s. You want to sing the Coke song. I want to buy the world of Coke. Oh, I can't do that anymore, can I? The. I'm not calling on the church to change anything. That is just. That's just not my place. There are things I wish would happen, but, you know, it's simply not my place to call upon an institution to change to suit me. That's just silly. That's the nature of the man. The man doesn't change to suit the little people. It just doesn't work that way. And furthermore, I don't know. I think it's not the job of the church to accommodate. It's the job of the church to uplift and challenge people to be better than what they are, not to accommodate whatever whims people happen to have. I sometimes think, as my friend Peggy has said, that the church has kind of dug their feet in a little bit on things that don't really matter and accommodated in ways that they shouldn't necessarily. But it's been. But I don't. It's simply not my place to call for change in the institution. I would like. It's difficult, actually. That's not true in my real ward. In real life, it's not a problem to fit in. Isn't that strange, even with people who know.

Guest [00:19:55] Right.

Ann [00:19:56] You know, I told the Relief Society president that I can't be a visiting teacher because I got put in a bad position once somebody asked me what I thought of the Book Mormon when I was visiting teaching. And so I told them, and we can't have that happen, you know, that's just not proper. So. But I'm still on the board, you know.

Guest [00:20:22] Sure.

Ann [00:20:23] It's still kind of calling and release society. It just. I don't teach.

Guest [00:20:27] Right.

Ann [00:20:28] So people. People in real life, actually, people can be very accommodating. They're a little confused, you know.

Guest [00:20:37] Yeah.

Ann [00:20:39] They can be very accommodating. So I don't mean they're confused as in, you know, or with confusion confused. I mean, confused as in they don't quite sometimes know what to make of the situation.

Guest [00:20:53] Yeah.

Ann [00:20:55] But very accommodating.

Guest [00:21:02] Depth of your dreams. Okay. To our listeners, this is going to seem a Little bit odd, but turns out that Ann and I weren't able to actually finish this conversation that we started. It was actually maybe even a little more than a month ago that we had this conversation. And because of various schedule conflicts and my travel and the interviews I did with Buckley and with Darren Smith, it's now a month later and Anna and I are ready to finish up this podcast. So, Ann, I appreciate your patience in enduring my schedule conflicts.

Ann [00:21:39] Oh, and likewise, John. Yeah, I had some conflicts of my own, so.

Guest [00:21:44] Yeah, no problem. But we're glad we finally are able to come back.

Ann [00:21:49] Yes.

Guest [00:21:50] And I think it's interesting because you, you know, I followed. You know, we started in this second episode talking a little bit about the new New Order Mormon website and the board. And I've actually been up there quite a bit since then and haven't seen much activity from you. And so, you know, you and I talked a little bit right before this recording that you had some feelings and thoughts to share about seasons in the life of an alternative Mormon and I. Let's just pick up there.

Crisis on the NOM Website and Ann's Role

Ann [00:22:20] Well, it was kind of interesting. Somewhere a little after Valentine's Day, there was a mini crisis on the NOM website and I'm a moderator there and not the website, the discussion board and I'm a moderator there and I completely, in my opinion, overreacted to this mini crisis and talked in real life to people that I almost always only talk to on the Internet. I called one of the other moderators, one of the moderators called me and we. There was this big discussion about this mini crisis and how I was reacting to it. And I gave it some thought and I decided that this stuff was all just. I was making it way more important in my mental state than it had any right to be and that it was flying directly in the face of my personal boundary setting mantra. It's just church, it's just a discussion board. There's a lot of stuff that happens on that discussion board that's really good. And I don't want to sound like I'm belittling it in any way. I think that there's some really, really valuable work that happens on that board. But I decided to check to sort of take a vacation from it and see what would happen if I wasn't posting what I thought about every situation that people would find themselves in or every idea that somebody had 10, 8, 12 times a day. If my ideas weren't so out there, if I kept them to myself, and lo and behold, the earth did not fall out of its orbit and plummet into the sun. I got along just fine, and they got along just fine. I still read. I don't want to make it sound like I divorced myself and went off and did something else. I still was an active reader, but I didn't post and I did that for almost a month and it was really healthy. It didn't change my interface with the church any, which also goes through its ups and downs. And right now I'm in kind of down mode with that. I think that happens even for believers, though. Do you think that that's the case?

Guest [00:25:46] Absolutely.

Ann [00:25:48] Even people who are faithful and believing saints will go through periods where they just something is just wrong, they just can't deal with it. And I'm going through kind of a down phase right now. I'm hoping that it'll pick up in time for the word crawfish boil. But we but that sort of my response to being in a Normally when I'm in a down phase with the church, I post more, I write more, I complain more, I throw out my ideas more. And while I get some really good, solid, supportive things, I also get lots of commiseration. That's. And what seems to have been healthier for me at least this last month, has just been to reduce my interface with all of it. I cut back on my participation at church, which was really minimal to begin with, and I cut back my participation with the boards. With the discussion boards. I cut back, like I said, with the blogger NaCl. I used to be a pretty prolific commenter on the blogger NACL also, and there are still some sites that I read pretty religiously. I love Latter Day Saint Liberation Front and I always read. I always check that out. I check that out every day and sometimes will feel the need to comment there because I think that RT and Serenity Valley have some really neat ideas and very interesting implementation of Mormon life. That's probably only possible in Berkeley, but it's been really interesting the change that it's brought around. I have so much more time to think about other things.

Guest [00:27:59] Let me ask you real quick if it's okay. We've talked a little bit about what New Order Mormon can mean to other people. But tell us just really quickly if we're going to sort of talk about this in a metaphor of seasons. Tell us what I would imagine you wouldn't say that you regret that you were a part of New Order Mormon, especially when. When you had this crisis of faith. So talk us through the life cycle and the seasons of a New Order of Mormon from someone who just for 30 or 40 years had no clue about any of this stuff. All of a sudden they find it, their world falls apart and bam, they're on the new Order of Mormon website. What's their experience like? And then how does it evolve to where you've come now and then maybe beyond, even if we just take 10 minutes, I think there could be some value in that.

Ann [00:28:56] Okay, well, there are different ways, of course, that different people handle it. One of the reasons that I withdrew from participation in a different board was because it does seem that some people really get stuck in anger. That, that they grab hold of something that strikes them as just wrong and they ride that horse till it drops. They just can't stop beating that horse even though we, and that's, that's, that can actually be kind of enticing because sometimes these people are a lot of fun, they're entertaining and they have great stories. And there was one guy who I miss a lot because one of the things I don't miss was his regularly posting critical, kind of snarky commentary on some of the more out there sports things that you'll find maybe in Meridian. Have you read Meridian?

Guest [00:30:18] Not really.

Ann [00:30:19] LDS mag.com yeah, sometimes I guess they have some pretty good stuff, but sometimes their stuff is just out there. And he would post links to some of the really wacky stuff and then everybody would laugh at the silly things that Mormons believe. And that, that can be, that can be very enticing. That that's the kind of thing that you can get enmeshed in really easily. And that's really one cycle that people will go through that they just, they, they get into anger other people go through. I do want to emphasize that everybody, they that finds themselves dealing with this. I really think that everybody goes through a period of anger that can either be, it can be short, it can be long, it can be intense, it can be mild. It. And that, that's just, that's a given. When people first have this happen to them and their world falls apart, they're angry.

Guest [00:31:34] And it's almost always, why didn't I know this? Why didn't someone tell me? Or you know, I can't believe we do this or we're doing this or we're this way.

Ann [00:31:42] Those are, yeah, feeling betrayed or lied to. And yeah, they lied about this one little thing. What else are they lying about? And that, that is a place where I think, important to be careful where you take your participation. If you're going to try to Go to the Internet. I do think that the New Order Mormon Board is a very safe place in that it can help people work through their anger without getting stuck there. That's one of the goals in my mind of the New Order Mormon Discussion Board is to help people get through the anger and not to get stuck there and to help other people who come in for the first time going, what happened to me? But then there's a period. The main reason people stay as New Order Mormons is for family. Not many people who have no other connection with the church, at least that's not been my observation. People who don't have extensive family or even some family connections with the church will usually, if they come to believe that the church is not what it claims to be, they may be angry and maybe be upset, but they'll just leave. They won't stick around as New Order Mormons. New Order Mormons are there for their family, almost exclusively for their family. Some people tell their spouse, tell their significant other if that person is still engaged with the church, and if that person is not still engaged with the church, they definitely tell them. But. And some people do not.

Guest [00:33:52] Some people, some people don't tell their spouses.

Ann [00:33:54] They don't tell their spouse. The, the reasoning behind that is that the reason you're saying New Order is to, is for your relationships. That the relationship is the most important thing and more important than the church and more important than your spouse understanding where you're coming from. And that is viewed, that is viewed as a. I want to say it's something you do for the other person. It's not something you do for yourself. It's not something you do to keep your own comfort level in place. And a lot of times it's because there are stories and these, I have seen enough of them and heard enough of them to know that these stories are true of spouses. Usually women who say, well, you're either going to be this person that I have that I thought I was marrying when I married in the temple for time and all eternity. You are going to be that person and remain that person, or me and the kids are out of here.

Guest [00:35:22] Right.

Ann [00:35:23] And there are women who will leave what are a kind and hard working and compassionate and loving husband and father because he can't wear the priesthood suit, he can't put on the priesthood suit in the morning. And, and that's a metaphor.

Guest [00:35:52] Sure.

Ann [00:35:54] I don't mean that you can wear a suit. Yeah, you got that. There are women who will, There are women who will, who Will, they will walk out on a marriage like that. And that is what New order Mormons who don't tell their spouse are turning to avoid.

Guest [00:36:11] So a percentage of your, of newer Mormons are living this life of, you know, feeling these deep things about the church, massive paradigm shifts, yet they can't even go to the person they're supposed to be closest and most loving to, to, to talk through this stuff. And so they, they literally have nowhere to go.

Ann [00:36:35] Even in my own, even in my own marriage, it was, what. Because I didn't, When I was first, first starting to struggle with all of this, I talked to my husband about it and that's, and I was really angry. I was upset, I was confused. And one night he said, I really just wish you wouldn't talk to me about this. And I started to cry.

Guest [00:37:06] And this is a Sunstone Dialogue Mormon, this is not your mamby Pamby, never heard these issues kind of guy, right?

Ann [00:37:12] Oh yeah, he's. I just really wish he didn't talk to me about this. I started to cry and I said, if I don't talk to you about this, who can I talk to? I don't need you to be defender of the faith. I don't need you to convince me that I'm wrong. I don't need you to agree with me that I need somebody to listen. And you're my best friend. And he was like, oh, okay.

Guest [00:37:34] Yeah.

Ann [00:37:36] And really he was, he was great about it. And it's like I said, it's been, I think, a little confusing for him.

Guest [00:37:43] But yeah, I, I can't help.

Ann [00:37:45] The marriage comes first.

Guest [00:37:46] Sure.

Ann [00:37:47] The marriage comes first. And for some people, I don't know, I don't know why the marriage does not come first.

Guest [00:37:57] So what would you say to a Mormon who said you're, you're blaspheming. God comes first, then Jesus, then the church and then marriage. What would you say to the Mormon

Ann [00:38:08] who felt, well, anybody who puts church ahead of their marriage I think has just got some real confusing issues.

Guest [00:38:13] Yeah, but tell us why. Tell us why. I mean, you know, if a husband isn't going to get your celestial kingdom, then, then you, that should be your first goal. Okay, I'm playing devil's advocate.

Navigating Marriage and Salvation Differences

Ann [00:38:26] I'm just speechless. Your husband can't get you to the celestial kingdom. Well, you need to figure out how you are going to get there on your own. The church has any amount of doctrine that says that a faithful, believing person is not going to be kept from all that they merit from all that God wants to give them because of the actions of another.

Guest [00:39:01] I mean, they're covered.

Ann [00:39:05] If I'm wrong and my husband is right, he's going to have probably any number of perfectly faithful wives in the celestial kingdom, and, and vice versa, right?

Guest [00:39:22] Sure.

Ann [00:39:24] Unhappiness in the celestial kingdom do not go hand in hand. They're opposites. And if you're going to go to the celestial kingdom, even if it's not with the person you're married to now, you'll be happy there because otherwise it wouldn't be the celestial kingdom.

Guest [00:39:40] See, and I shouldn't have derailed you because the real story here, at least in the context of this podcast, is the utter loneliness and secrecy that, that these people are feeling. And I can't help but draw parallels to Buckley Jepsen's interview where he basically admitted that he went 25 years either hiding his homosexuality or talking to bishops about it, and his wife was among the last to know in those 25 years. And, and you know, it is an incredible sense of, I don't know, I'm actually able to talk to my wife about everything and I'm really unique that way. In fact, I can talk to my mom and dad and they're totally cool and understanding. But most Mormons can't talk to their mom, can't talk to their dad, they can't talk to their siblings, they can't talk to anyone in their ward, and they can't talk to their spouse.

Ann [00:40:35] And eventually it has also been my observation that even people who start out not being able to talk to their spouse, things will move forward and it can take years. There's one participant on the New Order Mormons board who has never yet had a straight out conversation with his spouse saying, I don't believe this anymore. But they have come to an understanding. He knows she wants him there and she knows that he never gonna be the bishop. And in the meantime, he works very hard at being the best husband he can be. And so even though they've never had that overt conversation, they've reached a place where they're okay with what's going on. And I guess that's another part of if we're going to talk about this in seasons. The ultimate goal, I think, of being New Order Mormon is being able to be content with where you end up, wherever that might be. And that's one reason why I think that getting through the anger, yes, you have to go through it, but not getting stuck there is so important because as long as you're angry with the church, you're never being going to be content with where you are.

Guest [00:42:21] Right.

Ann [00:42:22] You know, and that doesn't mean you have to stay in the church. And that is another very viable thing. People will come to the New Order Mormons site. They'll work their way through. Their spouse may be on the same page even as them. And that happens a lot too, is that two spouses will succumb to the same realizations in different ways at different times. And sometimes they'll just go right through it together, hand in hand the whole way. And those people, they go through everything together. And more times than not, where they end up is out. And that's fine. And for them, New Order Mormons is a transitional phase. There is a school of thought that the New Order Mormon way of life is not tenable over the long haul. That it's not something you can do for your entire life. That if, you know, if you're someone in your 30s, you can't keep that up for 30 years. At some point, at some point you have to move on.

Guest [00:43:34] That you can't live with the cognitive dissonance in your mind, the consciousness.

Ann [00:43:38] Well, yeah, and after a while it becomes like, what's the point, right? Why am I putting myself through this? Why am I putting my family through this? Why not just say, okay, I'm done? And for some people, it's because their spouse just really wants them there. For other people, they're very good at church. I ran into a woman in my travels when I was after the hurricane where I was that I had known before. And she said, oh, I just don't listen. She's like, she's never been on the New Order Mormon board. She says, oh, yeah, I can. I just sit there. I just zone three hours on every Sunday. She just zones. Yeah, you know, So I mean, tell

Guest [00:44:35] me if you, tell me if you think, tell me if you like this theory. I mean, I teach elders quorum, and a third of the guys in elders quorum are asleep, just flat out. And if you think about how many people aren't doing their home teaching, I've never been in an elders quorum where, you know, the elders Quorum president was happy with the amount of home teaching done. If you think about how few people pay tithing, if you think about how few people go to the temple and how big of an issue it is for, you know, the leaders of the church, high priest, group leader, to get people to go to temple night, you know, could it be that consciously or unconsciously a Decent percentage of active Mormons actually are New Order Mormons, but just don't admit it or talk about it or maybe don't even know.

Ann [00:45:20] Well, no, probably not. Well, I think what those people are able to do naturally, which my experience with New Order Mormons has been that they start the people who go New Order are the ones who are hyperactive and the people who just kind of don't do everything that they ought to do. I hope you're seeing the quotes in those phrases. People who don't do all the things that are necessarily acceptable are expected of

Guest [00:46:02] them,

Ann [00:46:05] just are good at setting, have chosen to set different boundaries. In spite of all the talks about tithing and the importance of tithing and how you're blessed if you pay your tithing, they look at their checkbook and they say not going to happen. Maybe you can put that down to not exercising enough, but I think it's just a matter of sometimes people just take a pragmatic approach. I think what's interesting is that people who are New Order, when they aren't doing those things, they still feel guilty and then they resent that they're being made to feel guilty. People who just don't do those things are busy. I don't necessarily think they're New Order, I think they're slackers. And I don't mean that to be mean. We had talked about this earlier. I don't know if this is what come up before, but it's my observation that the church will take and take and take and take and take. And if you give a foot they want three more and if you give a yard they want for long, the church will take everything that it can in terms of your life, it will be your life. You can consecration, the church can be your life. And some people, just a law of consecration or no, are not willing to do that. They're not willing to make church their life. And some people are very good at setting those kinds of boundaries and other people are not. And some people thrive on that level of activity. I think that one of the most important tools that New Order Mormons can learn in order to reduce their level of stress of staying with the church is learning the word no. Because as I said, my observation of New Order Mormons is that they have been hyperactive leadership track all that good stuff that they have been in that frame that it's very hard to do things like turn down a calling to make a decision. I'm not going to tithe anymore or I'm not going to visit Teach. And it's very hard to do that if you're not. I hesitate to use the word out, but that's about the best term I can use. But if you're not open with your spouse, that's your level of belief. And for those people, becoming a slacker is just. The only way to reduce your level of engagement is to just not do what people tell you to do or what people ask you to do. There are so many things you can do in the church as a participant that you've got to draw boundaries somewhere. And if you don't, it eats your life. That's just my humble opinion. And there are people who are happy to give the church their life and more power to them, but I'm not.

Guest [00:49:52] And you probably agree that if Utah or the church has a higher per capita usage of psychotropic medicine, if there's depression, if there's a little bit more propensity towards obesity, if there might be risk of alienation in marriage, of neglecting children, would you say there's a lot at stake by learning this lesson of family? Marriage first, children second, then church? You know, maybe after Job, Would you say there's a lot at stake?

Ann [00:50:29] There's a lot. There's. Yes, I do. I also, though, I don't want to diminish the importance of God as you see God in that, because that, that source of sustenance, that's a, That's a, that's an enriching thing for people who say, how can you put the church before. How can you put the marriage before church? That's easy. How can you put the marriage before God? Has, as different people understand God, that I don't. I don't. One of the things that I've tried to. I don't. I don't want to sound like bragging. My husband has a fairly high, A high level of impact in his calling. It's a high impact calling, a lot of responsibility. And when I was, when they called him to this, he called me because I wasn't there because, you know, sacrament meeting was over and I leave after sacrament meeting. He called me. He said, well, they want me to do this. And I said, well, I got to come in and we got to talk. And to me, my main concern was I don't want to be a single parent. Then they're done that. And number two was, do you want to do this? And he said, yes. And so, hey, you know, God needs him. God can have him. So that's. That's important to him. So that's important to me.

Guest [00:52:14] Sure. Very cool.

Unplugging and Finding Seasons of Balance

Ann [00:52:21] The other piece about Seasons is that I really do think it's important at some times. Unplugging comes in a lot of senses. And one of the things about plug unplugging is unplugging for Mormon stuff. When I said that, I still read the board, but I stopped posting and I still read the blogger NACL occasionally, but I hardly ever comment anymore. That's just been very, very freeing by getting into those kinds of things. That's just another piece of my life that I was surrendering to Mormon stuff. And I'm not even saying to the church. That really was. That's Mormon stuff. Does that make sense? Sure. Do you know what I mean? It's all part of Mormon culture and engagement with other Latter Day Saints. I mean, the blogger is all about Mormon stuff. I mean, there's really. I don't see a whole lot of real church things happening in the guardernacle. It's almost all just about Mormon stuff. And that's interesting. Those things are really interesting. Mormon stuff is interesting. Mormons are interesting people. They have interesting ideas and a unique approach to life. And it just. It was just another. Between the blogger Nichol and the boards, it was just eating up just an enormous amount of time from my life. I hesitate to say this, but I haven't listened to any of the podcasts you've done since our last recording. And I love your podcast, but.

Guest [00:54:21] Good feel.

Ann [00:54:23] It's just, it's.

Guest [00:54:25] And let me encourage. And let me stop and let me encourage my listeners not to listen to my podcasts either. No, I totally understand.

Ann [00:54:37] It's part of being able, I think to be able to successfully engage with the church, if you're going to try to do it on an ongoing basis, you've just got to set limits. If you're not a believer, you've got to set limits, and you've got to be able to feel good about setting those limits, however you choose to do it and let go. There was a thing that came up in the last session, I remember, where we were talking about, do you feel that you're calling on the church to do these things? And I kind of hesitated and backed off of that idea. And I think that's an important part of letting go is realizing that the church is what it is. It just. Acceptance is stages of grief, I guess acceptance is a very important part of being able to move forward in whatever direction you choose to go is to just accept that the church is what it is. And as Mere cogs in the machine who have really no hope. Maybe you have some hope, but I have no hope of ever being ever made an apostle as that I'm not going to be in any position to ever affect any change. And so accepting that really does make it easier to just move forward. And when something comes along that's frustrating or difficult to be able to take a step back from that and look at it in the context of your whole life, of everything that's going on right now, I. The one area I think that I have the most difficulty with, that there are two of them actually is gays and lesbians. As participants in the church and women in the priesthood. I have been able, I think to really do a good job of letting go of the women in the priesthood because I'm not a believer anymore, so what do I care? But my heart just aches for people who believe and have the same sex attraction. My heart just aches for them. There is no place at the table for them unless they choose to live a life of void. Of void of human intimacy, of real human intimacy and sharing their life with someone who sees them as the most important thing, that's just not right. But once again, it's a thing I can't do anything about. And I don't see that the church as people talk a lot about, oh well, you know, love to sin, love the sinner, hate to sin. But I just don't see that the church has made any progress in that matter at all. And when you have believing faithful returned missionaries committing suicide over this, apparently it's a process problem. People should not be dying for their faith. Not. Anyway, we can look at the website a little bit about the pieces of the website, won't we?

Guest [01:01:03] Yeah, if you don't mind, there are two sections that I, that I really would like to just. I'll read you the bullet and then you just give your one minute description of the bullet. Do you mind?

Ann [01:01:17] Yeah, sure, that's fine.

Reasons to Stay and Engage With the Church

Guest [01:01:19] So first of all, the, for our listeners. Yeah, for listeners. The. The website we're talking about is www.newordermormon.org and the first section I want to talk about is why we. Why we choose to stay in the Church. So you've talked a little bit about this, but let me just go through each of those bullets and have you give your spiel on why you think it would be legitimate for someone who doesn't believe some or all of the church to stay in. So you did talk about family. Is there anything else you want to say about family?

Ann [01:01:52] No, I think that the website sums it up really well. I do want to mention that there are people, sometimes very young people come to the New Order website we had in the past. More than one older teenager show up looking for help. Sometimes these are. This hasn't happened a lot but it has happened. We do try to be welcoming with them, but also to remind them that if they're minors that they are subject to their parents rules and that they can get that way. They can improve their family situation most by being the kind of teenagers we all wish we had as opposed to being the teenagers from hell. By being pleasant, by being good students, by not turning into drug abusing, sleeping around people with lots of inappropriate piercings. Their parents are more likely not to try to. Are not going to be as likely to put their thumb down. Okay, so that's. And we also. The other thing I want to say about families, it's family is usually spouses, husbands and wives, but sometimes it can be parents. Even for adults there will be people who they're out to their that who will be quote out. I really feel the need to put a quote on that because I don't want to. Well it's like you know, you know it's like it's comparing everything to the Holocaust. You don't want to compare everything to being out. But if even adults, older adults that are open with their spouses about what they believe will sometimes keep it from their parents. Especially if their parents are older or in frail health. Sometimes they're the only ones that are still active. Five kids and only one still goes to church and it's them and they don't believe anymore. And it's taking you dad's not that much longer. I can, I don't have to tell my dad what I think.

Guest [01:04:19] Right. Okay, so talk. You know a lot of people there's a, there's sort of a pejorative that's used a social Mormon. You know, you talk about community, tell us what you think about why it might be or makes sense for someone to stay LDS or stay active, you know, for community reasons.

Ann [01:04:44] Well, unless you're for example an active engaged member in another church and you live in the Mormon corridor, staying engaged with the Latter Day Saints is how you stay in touch with your neighbors. It's not so much an issue for people who live out in the field I think but there is something that goes along with being a Latter Day Saint. Especially if you move around a lot, you end up someplace and boom, there's a new community. I never really moved around much until I married this migratory man. And the places that I've lived, I have always been able to plug immediately into warm, welcoming, friendly people who were willing to let me contribute and had things to offer our family as well. And that is not a small thing. As the website said, this is a very fragmented world that we live in now. I just read an article in Salon the other day about a woman whose neighbor had died and she didn't even know her neighbor. She lived in the same house for five or six years and didn't even know who her neighbor was. And that's very common now. And that's a real advantage of staying plugged into the church, is that we need people, People need each other. That connection is important. And the church makes it very easy to make those new connections, especially in a society as migratory as ours.

Guest [01:06:41] Yep. And isolation is really unhealthy.

Ann [01:06:46] Yes, I know that. As someone who works from home, I know that.

Guest [01:06:53] And just because we're a little bit short on time, I'll just lump the two together. You mentioned Christianity and universalism. Anything you want to say about that before we jump to the suggestions for disengagement? I'm sorry, do you want to mention anything about Christianity and universalism?

Ann [01:07:12] Well, I do want to say that one of the things that I have taken with me is from Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's essay Lusterware was a quote from her bishop that the church is the perfect laboratory for practicing the virtues of humility and mercy and service and love unfeigned and forgiveness. That we as that saints have that opportunity because the community can be so close knit. We have the opportunity to become better people through our interactions with the church, even if we don't necessarily believe all the things that they're teaching. And the nice thing about church, the church is sort of a mini universalist organization. One of the things that's most appealing to me about Mormon theology is no hell. Except for, you know, men who blaspheme the Holy Ghost or whatever, there really is no hell. And the idea of a universal resurrection and even, you know, the Pellestial kingdom, which is where the bad people go, supposed to be a pretty awesome place. And once. And when you, if you, if you look at that sort of from an outside perspective, that's very unique, I think. Very unique. That's unique among Christians and the, then you can take that to the next step and say, well, you know, some of us just aren't celestial material and, and that's okay.

Guest [01:08:55] Yeah, yeah, Very good. Well, let's, let's talk about suggestions for disengagement. I think that's really, really important. Maybe one of the most important things I found on the site. But the first suggestion that you have is put family relationships first. Talk about that for a bit, if you don't mind.

Ann [01:09:19] Well, these are not my suggestions. These are original LDS nands, and we have softened them a little bit from. Tell no one, for example, to be very careful, but put family relationships first. That requires a very other centeredness that is sometimes very difficult. When you're going through the paradigm shift of losing your faith, you want to tell people you're angry, you're upset. Did you know this? Did you know this? Why didn't you tell me about this if you knew this? And that puts your family in a very difficult position. That puts them in opposition to you as defenders of the faith. And it's much more important to. You need to think of them. You need to think of them. And that's just good advice from marriage anyway. People who are very me centered tend to have, I think, just not very successful marriages. If you put the other person first, really show forth an outpouring of love and mean it, be sincere, put their needs ahead of your own. And if you have a good spouse, that's easy to do. And when you, when you, when you take that step, that, that also sends a message. That sends a message that there's this. If they do know what you're going through, there's this church thing going on that you may not understand. But I love you.

Guest [01:11:05] Yeah.

Ann [01:11:06] And you are a different. My relationship with you and my relationship with the church are not the same.

Guest [01:11:17] Yeah. Yeah. I can just tell you that when I was going through my huge crisis, it was a huge burden on my wife and kids because I was always angry, I was always bitter. I was always on the Internet engaging these long threads with people over these issues and trying to understand. I was always reading this. And even today Mormonism is on my sleeve. And so not being selfish and, and not forgetting about other people is huge. It's. I really appreciate that.

Ann [01:11:52] Yes.

Guest [01:11:53] So go slowly.

Ann [01:11:56] Oh, it's. That's it. That's almost a textbook thing that people don't do. And that's why we reiterated here in capital letters in a bold font. Go slow. There is nothing to be gained by rushing through everything. And once again in your family relationships, dumping everything on your spouse. One minute you're fine, and then the next minute you lay out for them. In the course of an hour of everything that's wrong with the church today. Don't make decisions quickly, or some people

Guest [01:12:28] just want to resign their membership immediately.

Ann [01:12:33] And there's, you know, I don't want to tell people what to do. If you really think it's that important, go ahead. But going slow. There's nothing to lose by being thoughtful and careful about the decisions you make and the choices you make and any behavior changes that you exhibit that you choose to. To pursue. And that is where the parody of the less active person who turns into an alcoholic prostitute because they lost their faith. That's where it comes from, I think, is from people who think, well, I don't need to follow the word wisdom. And they go nuts. Just because you no longer think the word of wisdom is a commandment doesn't mean you need to take up drinking. That doesn't mean don't. But just be careful in what behaviors you change, lifestyle changes that you make. There's no rush. You can do something in six months. Months as well as now.

Guest [01:13:53] Yeah. Kind of the baby out with the bathwater thing.

Ann [01:13:56] Yes, yes.

Practical Tips for Members With Doubts

Guest [01:13:58] So how about be very careful about who you talk to about your doubts?

Ann [01:14:04] Well, there are. That's. There are a couple of reasons for that, and one of them is reducing stress on yourself. If you. You might think that you've picked up clues about people who think the way that you do, and so you say things to them and they immediately go into apologist mode, and then they look at you funny and then they're avoiding you at meetings. And this is someone who you used to have fun with. It's never good to make assumptions based on what people say about what they really think, because everybody can say something snarky about something funny or weird. Somebody said in a sacrament meeting. And that doesn't mean that they aren't. That they aren't believers or that they're

Guest [01:14:55] ready to get the full load dumped on them.

Ann [01:14:57] Or that they're what?

Guest [01:14:58] Or that they're ready to get the whole load dumped on them.

Ann [01:15:02] Right, Exactly. Well, and it's not even that. It's. If you're planning on remaining engaged with the community, it is helpful to not set yourself apart, because there's a real tendency among people who no longer believe to think that they know more or they're smarter than the people who still do. You know, how can these. The language that's used to describe them is very derisive, and you don't want to find yourself cast in that light unnecessarily, Especially if You feel you still have something to contribute and you still want to participate in the community. And people don't want to know. They don't want to know.

Guest [01:15:59] So what do you mean by that?

Ann [01:16:02] Well, people don't care what I think. People don't care what I think. People have their own lives, you know, I mean, that's another, that's another thing that I observe very often among new, new orders. It's like, well, I want them to understand where I'm coming from. Well, why do you care that they understand you? You know, I mean, you get over yourself. It's really. People don't care what I think. My opinion just doesn't matter. Yeah, well, you know, what's to be gained? Nothing.

Guest [01:16:39] And your last bit of advice is don't burn any bridges or at least the website.

Ann [01:16:46] Well, that's a, that's, that's something that can go both ways. Don't give any ultimatums to people that you care about. Don't say it's me or the church. And don't tell your bishop off. Don't resign your membership. Don't go out and have an affair because it doesn't matter anymore. There's no reason to do any damage. There's no reason to do any damage to other people. There's no reason to do that. Other people are important. Even other people that you don't like very much or don't have a lot of respect for. They're still people and they're still important and they still have thoughts and they still have feelings and there's nothing to be gained by hurting them. And the other thing that we say is that you don't know where you're going to be in five years. I don't know what the future holds anyway. I don't have a mind reading hat I don't know what's coming down the. You know, maybe something will happen. Maybe I'll get my faith back. Well, I don't have to go through all the interviews and be rebaptized and have my blessings restored and all that because I haven't done anything final. And what's to be gained by setting down an ultimatum for your spouse? It's me or the church, and they say, sorry, it's the church. And then you leave. And then three years later, they leave too. That happens. I don't mean to sound cynical, but most people leave. More people leave the church than stay. And so here you've gone and you've tossed out a perfectly good marriage because you decided to draw your Line in the same. That's just silly, right.

Guest [01:19:05] So don't burn bridges.

Ann [01:19:07] Yes, just go slow.

Is New Order Mormon a Bridge Out of the Church

Guest [01:19:11] So is it fair to say that New Order of Mormon is like a soft path and a bridge out of the church or.

Ann [01:19:20] Not necessarily, not necessarily. But yes, it is fair to say that. Does that make sense for men many people The New Order Mormons way of life is a step out for many people it is not. But you never really know going into it which one of those people you are going to be. You don't know if you are going to be one of the people that sticks around for the long haul or, or if you're going to be someone who in six months just figures well I'm done.

Guest [01:20:00] Right.

Ann [01:20:02] And you know, The role of the discussion board and the essays and the information on the website is, is to make it is to make the loss of faith less traumatic for everyone and to show that there are options. The original LDS man was a firm believer in the third way that there's a difference between that your choices aren't stay or go, believe or not believe, but there is a third way. And that this was a man who, he died a couple of years ago. But on the one hand he was a gospel doctrine teacher in his ward and a very good one. But on the other hand when he, when one of his children got married, he said to this child, you are not married until your daddy blesses your wedding in the backyard. And this child was married in the temple and went and had their temple marriage and then afterwards came back and free of any, any church impositions of how it ought to be, there was a lovely ceremony in the backyard in their backyard and everybody was there. And so there's a third way you can. And he was a big proponent of the that I like to think that he was right. I hope that he was right. And for him he was third way

Guest [01:22:14] being true believer, orthodoxy, apostate, the third way being in the church, but not necessarily in the church but unplugged and of free will instead of.

Ann [01:22:29] Yes, absolutely. I still think, when I say, when I think about how people get all in a dither because people do one of the things that New Order Mormons and get most in a dither about is not being there when their children are married. Well, you know, the nice thing about the third way is you get to define what it means and you just say it's like, well, you know, if we do it at the church, we have to do this and it says you have to do it at the church, do it in your own backyard. What control does anybody have over what your family does in their own backyard? It can be very freeing. It's a very freeing idea that the church is there to support people, not the other way around.

Guest [01:23:20] Yeah. The church was made for man and not man for the church.

Ann [01:23:30] That's what we would like people to see as an option when they come to the New Order Mormon site. Is that your level of engagement with the church and what the church can demand of you and what you have to give? The church is up to you, not them.

Guest [01:23:57] Beautiful. Well, Ann, I have to run to my daughter's spelling bee, so I want to thank you so much for taking the time to come on Mormon Stories. I've just been delighted to get to know you.

Closing Reflections With Ann

Ann [01:24:10] Well, I've really enjoyed it, dawn. And I got to get back to work, so thanks for setting this up.

Guest [01:24:16] My pleasure. So, Ann, thanks again for coming on to all our listeners. Please check out newordermormon.org if you're interested. Ann, I totally wish you well. I hope your journey continues in a very positive and uplifting way.

Ann [01:24:32] Thanks, John. I hope so, too.

Guest [01:24:34] And please all of you listeners, please feel free to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com or to visit us up on our blog at mormonstories.org we sure appreciate those of you who take the time to listen and comment, and we look forward to talking to you again soon. Thanks a lot. Take care and goodbye.

Ann [01:24:52] Bye Bye.

Guest [01:24:59] The depth of your dreams, the height of your wishes.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.