Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1148

Donna Showalter [00:00:03] Shapes. Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 15, 2019. Today we are going to be interviewing Michael and Donna Showalter. Just to give you a little bit of a background, this interview is going to be at least in two parts. The Showalter are a family that have grown up and raised and strengthened their family within a very orthodox Mormon context, ending up after many years in Provo, Utah, in very conservative sort of East Bench Provo, Utah, close to the Temple and Donna even serving as a Relief Society president in Provo, Utah. So this is a very traditional, conservative, orthodox Mormon story up to a point. And so we'll talk about that briefly. Then we're going to talk about kind of Michael Showalter's journey coming out as a, as a gay teenager in Provo, Utah, what that was like for him. And he's much more than just that. But we're going to be talking about what it's like to come out to, to be a Mormon in Provo, conservative Provo, Utah, what it was like for Michael to come out as gay in conservative Provo, Utah, and in conservative Provo High School. And then we're going to talk about how Michael has strengthened and healed and progressed from that experience. And we're also going to talk about how a very conservative, orthodox Mormon mom, Relief Society president in Provo, Utah, would come to not only accept her son, but also embrace and love and celebrate him. And so that's going to be part one of our story. Then Michael's going to have to leave and go to work and, and we're going to talk about Donna Showalter's faith journey and how a, again, Provo East Bench Relief Society president can ultimately end up leaving the church and what that's like again, in a very conservative neighborhood. So that's what we're up for today. We are broadcasting, streaming this live on Facebook Live. So we very much ask you to please send us your Comments, your questions, your feedback. Donna works with the Encircle House in Provo, and that's a really important organization. We'll be talking about that as a part of Donna's story as well. But please share with us your comments and questions and suggestions or feedback. And also please share this interview right now on your walls, on your social media, on Instagram, on Twitter, however, in email, however you want to share. The more live viewers we have, the more kind of the ripple effect of these interviews can be. So thanks to everyone who's joining us, and we look forward to at least several hours of a really good conversation. So without any further ado, Donna and Michael Showalter, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. This is a real treat and a real honor.

Donna Showalter [00:04:05] Thank you. It's all us.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] So this is all about. This first part's all about your journey, Michael, and a mother's love. So let's begin. Donna, if it's okay, let's begin with you. We'll. We'll go more into depth on your Mormon journey in the second part, but we want to kind of paint the picture. So to give us kind of that, that quick overview, tell us a bit about your Mormon upbringing briefly, and your husband's in a way that allows him to tell his own story someday if he wants, but paint the picture of kind of what Mormonism meant to you, your husband and your family in its early years prior to Michael's journey.

Donna's Mormon Upbringing and Family Background

Donna Showalter [00:04:50] Sure. I was raised in a family with my mom's side, sixth generation. My dad is the only member of his family. He joined the church while he was in Vietnam. He was given a Book of Mormon by a fellow soldier, and he joined the church in Vietnam. Came home from Vietnam absolutely on fire. And he basically has lived his whole life like that there.

Michael Showalter [00:05:18] What do you mean on fire?

Donna Showalter [00:05:19] Like super, super strong testimony, 100 believing. And it. And it governed every aspect of our lives in a really good way. You know, we had structure and, and I remember we were as kids super faithful about family, home, evening scripture study, family prayer. I remember kneeling around our coffee table in the living room. I still remember it had, like, little bumps in it because it was from the 70s and that's what was in style. But every single night, we were incredibly faithful. My mom served in every position in the church. I think I remember when I was in primary, she was the primary president or in the presidency. My dad has been in pretty much every calling.

Michael Showalter [00:06:08] How were you when he went to Vietnam?

Donna Showalter [00:06:10] My dad served in Vietnam twice, so he Was in. He was there in 67, I think, or 68. Came home and then went back to Vietnam in 68. Early 69. And I was born in 69. So now you know how old I am.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Same year as me.

Donna Showalter [00:06:28] Yay. It's a good year, huh?

Michael Showalter [00:06:29] It's a great year. Wow. You were about to die.

Donna Showalter [00:06:33] That's so rude. My brain is. My brain is very young. My body's getting there. Getting kind of old.

Michael Showalter [00:06:42] Yeah. Some of my friends like my mom more than they like me.

Donna Showalter [00:06:46] I used to be known as Michael's mom.

Michael Showalter [00:06:50] Now I'm known as Donna's son.

Donna Showalter [00:06:54] It's awesome. Anyway, so, yeah, super, super faithful, church attending. And we really lived our religion, you know, and happily. It was. It was so much a part of our life. And all of us, there's six kids in our family, we've all been pretty faithful our whole lives. So we'll get in to that history maybe a little bit more later, but.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:07:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] Where'd you meet? Where'd you meet your husband?

Donna Showalter [00:07:30] I was living in American Fork, so I was recently divorced, so I was married before. And I have four children altogether. Katie, David, Nathan, and Michael K. Katie, David and Nathan are from my first marriage. So I was living in American Fork and very recently divorced. And there was a lady in my ward, a whole bunch of us used to take our kids to the park just to play, like, play dates. And I remember one day sitting on a blanket, and we were all talking about our maiden names. Like, what's your maiden name? My maiden name is angel, and my nickname growing up was Donna Devil. Whatever. Anyway, so we go around, we're telling our maiden names, and. And my friend gets to hers, and she's like, my maiden name is Showalter. And I was like, what? Like, that sounds like a foreign language. And I'm like, how do you spell that? She spelled it for me. I'm like, wow. And I knew that she had a brother who was not married, but he'd been home from his mission for a few years. And I was like, well, no wonder he's not married. Nobody wants that for a last name. Like, that's horrible. Anyway, so fast forward a little while. And she invited me to dinner and invited him to dinner without telling the other. Anyway, it's, like, so cliche, but it totally worked. Like, by the end of the night, I felt like I'd known him forever. We had moved the kitchen table away, and we were. What is it? Country line dancing. That was a thing back then. In the mid-90s so we were line dancing in her living room, and we just kind of stayed friends for a while. And it quickly developed into this romance where I felt like he was the answer to almost every prayer I'd ever prayed, you know?

John Dehlin [00:09:14] So had you had kids from a previous marriage?

Donna Showalter [00:09:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] How many kids?

Donna Showalter [00:09:17] 3.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Three kids from a previous marriage. And then. So how old were you? You married your current husband?

Donna Showalter [00:09:23] 25.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] You're 25?

Donna Showalter [00:09:25] Yeah. Okay, so I'm. I'm a divorced woman with three kids. Right, okay. At 25. And he is 24. At BYU. Returned missionary.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:09:35] So.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] And so. Wow, that's. I mean, that's a thing. When you're 24 years old at BYU and you're marrying a woman with three kids already, that's a significant deal.

Donna Showalter [00:09:44] Yeah, yeah. And I think his family had some pretty significant concerns. I remember finding a letter in his apartment that his dad had written him asking all kinds of, like, really serious questions that were very wise, actually. You know, like, how much debt does she have? What exactly caused the divorce? Like, you know, what are you. Basically, what do you. Do you really understand what you're taking on?

John Dehlin [00:10:03] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:10:04] And I think about that sometimes when we talk, Steve and I, like, why did you marry me? Like, you had. You had your pick of how many 20,000 girls at BYU and you married me?

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:10:19] And he.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] And you must have had something to offer.

Michael Showalter [00:10:23] She's pretty great.

John Dehlin [00:10:26] So he takes that on. You're married and married in the temple? Yes. First, or was there a civil thing? No, we.

Donna Showalter [00:10:34] We were married. Okay. So I was married to my first husband, and we had been sealed in the Oakland temple. So when that all fell apart and then Steve and I started dating, I got a cancellation of sealing, which was fairly quick, actually. It only, like, from the time my stake president turned in all the paperwork, it was three weeks, and came back and said, you know, you're no longer sealed. And so we were. We were married in the Manti temple. We made all of our family drive an hour and a half to Manti to see us get married in the temple there. So.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] Okay, so. So you're married with. With three kids, and you had custody of the three kids?

Donna Showalter [00:11:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Okay, and so how many kids did you guys have together after?

Donna Showalter [00:11:18] Just Michael.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:11:20] He's the grand finale. We've always called him the grand finale.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] Okay.

Michael Showalter [00:11:23] When have you ever called me the grand finale?

Donna Showalter [00:11:25] Always. To everybody.

Michael Showalter [00:11:27] So what's.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] What's the year's difference between you and the third. The third child? What's the space?

Michael Showalter [00:11:33] How old Nathan, 23, 24.

Donna Showalter [00:11:35] So four years.

John Dehlin [00:11:36] 24 years. Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:11:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:37] So kind of a caboose. A little bit of a caboose.

Michael Showalter [00:11:39] Yeah. Definitely difference. Me and Nathan only went to elementary school together for, like, two years. I was second grade when he was in sixth grade. So we were always like, okay, yeah, just missing each other.

Blending Families and Building a Life in the Church

John Dehlin [00:11:50] So, Donnie, give us a sense for what the church. As you guys were blending families and raising these kids, what were your goals as a couple? What did the church mean to you? To what extent was the church kind of the bond that brought you guys together or the foundation upon which your marriage and family would be built? And how did that kind of progress, just briefly?

Donna Showalter [00:12:13] Well, when we were dating, one of the things that was really attractive to me about him is that he wore, like, his Sunday suit, and I just thought that was really attractive. But he would stop by on his way home from work almost every night, and we would read scriptures with the kids, like, in the living room. And we didn't just read the words. We would pause and discuss it and ask questions. And it was thoughtful. And I could tell that he was really, really devoted and faithful. And that was really attractive to me. Like, I was drawn to that. I was hungry for that. So I think our whole. Our dating, courtship, engagement, marriage, everything has just revolved around church activity and the gospel.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] And so you viewed your life milestones from marriage to death sort of being what give us, like, the. Oh, so you'd have at least one kid and then what?

Donna Showalter [00:13:15] We thought we'd have more, and you and dad. Yeah. Didn't happen, but. Okay, that's another reason we call him the grand finale. Because anyway, we. We thought that we would. So he was still at byu, so we moved into Wy Mount BYU housing into a teeny, teeny little apartment. And we were active in church, and he was going to school and. And he was in some of the singing groups at byu. So we would go to concerts and things like that. Our goals were to raise our kids to be faithful members of the church and whatever that meant and whatever it took to make that happen. So lots of callings. Scouting. Lots of scouting. Lots of scouting for both of us and wanting our kids to hit those benchmarks. You know, they. They were baptized when it was time.

Michael Showalter [00:14:12] They. You know, I feel like in the church, a lot of time, end goal is marriage and kids. And then when you have those kids, your job is to teach those kids. Marriage and kids.

Donna Showalter [00:14:23] Yeah.

Michael Showalter [00:14:24] And then it's just an endless cycle, like.

Donna Showalter [00:14:26] Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what you know, that's what we're taught, and that's what our goal was. Our ultimate goal, obviously, was to be an eternal family. And. And so we wanted to do whatever it took to make sure that we were together in the eternities as a family. Like, no. No Child Left behind kind of stuff,

John Dehlin [00:14:48] you know, so that your kids would all serve missions or they would remain faithful.

Donna Showalter [00:14:53] They'd go on, they'd get their eagles, and then they would get their driver's licenses, because that's how it was. And then they would go on a mission and they would come home and get married in the temple and give us lots of grandkids. And then we. And as soon as all the kids were gone and Steve retired, we would spend our retirement or pension or whatever on missions, and we would just serve out our lives doing missions, you know, to wherever. Whatever they wanted us to do, we were going to do it. You know, we were 100% devoted.

Michael Showalter [00:15:26] And I think raising. Obviously I wasn't born, but I think raising Nathan, Katie and David, my siblings, it was a household full of expectations, because the expectations for what brought you happiness and what. Oh, yeah, you found peace in your life and you wanted to share that with your kids.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] So what were the expectations like?

Michael Showalter [00:15:46] Go to church, get baptized, be in the priesthood, go to Relief Society. Not really study young women's. Like, go to Scouts, all these.

Donna Showalter [00:15:56] Every activity.

Michael Showalter [00:15:58] You're going to have strong faith and you're going to be okay. You're going to be in heaven with us.

Donna Showalter [00:16:02] And which I think came from a deep sense of love. Oh, yeah, without a doubt.

Michael Showalter [00:16:08] Because why would you teach that without believing yourself and wanting the best for your kids or the people that you love? You're not doing it from a place of hate, obviously. You're doing it because you want to be with your kids and you want them to have the most successful life, and it's what's brought you success and happiness.

Michael's Childhood Experience with Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:16:26] So tell us some of the things you remember in your childhood years and early teen years. About what? How Mormonism integrated into your family's life.

Michael Showalter [00:16:36] I don't think it was even integrated. It was my entire life. Like I was in Provo, Utah. The. There were. Now there are two temples in that one city. My high school is 85% Mormon. I would go to church on. Okay, so I'd go to church on Sundays, three hours of church, blah, blah, blah. And then I would stay home all Sunday. And I wasn't allowed to watch anything

Donna Showalter [00:16:54] over PG and not even pg church videos, documentaries, Disney.

Michael Showalter [00:17:00] Yeah. That, like, went down as time went on, but. And then I would go to school, and all my friends were Mormon, and that was, like, what we all had in common. It was just a continuous. It was. It was reality. You know, there wasn't really. And those people. I was a kid in middle school, if I vividly remember this. I was walking the halls and someone said the F word. And I did not know this person. I turned to them and I said, can you please not swear in front of me? I didn't even know who they were. Looking back now, I'm like, what?

Donna Showalter [00:17:37] Why?

Michael Showalter [00:17:37] Why would you do that? But he was.

Donna Showalter [00:17:39] You were always like that. Even in. Even in elementary school, he would come home and say, you know, I won't say names. But, like, so and so did this thing, and I told him to stop. Oh, I do. I do.

Michael Showalter [00:17:50] Anyway, I was. I was that kid.

Donna Showalter [00:17:53] He was sort of a tattletale, but in a really good way, like, wanting so desperately for everybody to just be good.

Michael Showalter [00:18:02] But then I would, like, get done with school, and then I would, like. I would have mutual on Wednesdays. So it was literally Sunday Wednesday. And then, like, throughout the week, there are different church activities. Like, scouting things. Like, my entire life was the church. And even at home, like, there's pictures on the walls of Jesus, like, quotes of Jesus, Joseph Smith, whatever. And then we, like, for a while, we would do, like, family evening. It was my reality.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] Okay, and what did the church mean to you spiritually, you know, in your life?

Michael Showalter [00:18:36] In my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] Like, in. In those years as a kid and an early teen.

Michael Showalter [00:18:41] Yeah. I think when I finally, like, stopped believing in the church or stopped caring, I guess you could say I was, like, 16. But previously, I was super traumatic for me, but. Because that was your last hope, what did it mean to me? Is that what you asked?

John Dehlin [00:19:03] Like, did you. Did you pray to Heavenly Father? Did you get answers? Did you study the Scriptures? Did you, like, primary? Did you like.

Michael Showalter [00:19:11] I loved it. Like, I was happily oblivious. I was, in a way, like, the golden one of our ward. Like, I was the one that always went to church, always went to Mutual Scouts. I had my eagle at 13. I.

Donna Showalter [00:19:23] All the old ladies in the ward were like, michael, oh, he's so cute. He's so sweet. Look how good he. You know, he was. Like, he was the golden child.

Michael Showalter [00:19:32] Yeah. And, like, it brought me happiness because that's all that I knew. And it brought me peace because it was all I knew. And I didn't have anything in my way, I'm a white CIS male in Prova, Utah. What issues would I have? It was. It was great because I was oblivious.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] Did you have a personal. Did you feel like you had a personal relationship with Heavenly Father or the Savior?

Michael Showalter [00:19:55] Yeah, I did. Because looking back, I think it's because I convinced myself that I did because everyone told me that they did or that I should. I mean, like, from, like, before I could remember, I would go up to the microphone in church and, like, bear my testimony. I believe the church is true. And Joseph Smith is a real prophet. Like, what you're told to say, which eventually if you're told something enough, you start to believe it because that's all. That's all you know. And so, like, I would go up to the microphone, my own free will after, and, like.

Donna Showalter [00:20:30] But I never. I never went up with my kids ever. I'm like, if you're gonna go up there, I'm not gonna whisper in your ear.

Michael Showalter [00:20:38] Yeah, but I was told previously.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] What?

Donna Showalter [00:20:40] Oh, yeah.

Michael Showalter [00:20:40] What to say. Or, like, I would write it down, like, on a piece of paper. Like, why should I write down what I believe in order to believe it?

John Dehlin [00:20:49] Right.

Michael Showalter [00:20:49] Looking back, anyways. But I believed it, and it. It brought me peace.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] So you were happily Mormon?

Michael Showalter [00:20:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] For how many years?

Michael Showalter [00:21:00] I would say until about middle school. That's when I started, like, that's when I started realizing I was attracted to guys. But it didn't hurt my faith in any way, shape or form. Like, I talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] About how you first. I mean, you're in Provo, Utah, Uber Mormon. Uber Mormon family. Had your mom already been relief study president by that point or not yet?

Michael Showalter [00:21:21] I don't know.

Donna Showalter [00:21:22] I was.

Michael Showalter [00:21:22] I think so.

Donna Showalter [00:21:23] I was really society president when he came out publicly, but I was primary president, I think, when he started, like, talking about it a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] Okay, so orthodox family, you're loving the church. You're in junior high, middle school, and what happens?

Michael Showalter [00:21:41] So, like, my entire belief system told me that being gay was wrong or a sin or something that could be overcome.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] How did you first notice? Talk about first noticing the feelings that were different and how you.

Michael Showalter [00:21:56] I can't really pin it down to one spot. Like, when do you start realizing heterosexuals? How do you start realizing, like, you're attracted to the opposite gender?

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Some people start, I see Susie, and I'm like, whoa, she's cute. I want to send her a note and hold her hand. Right?

Michael Showalter [00:22:10] Yeah, in a way it was like that. But at the same time, it was so wrong that I oppressed It. And I, like, told myself, no, of course not. Of course not. No, no, no. And, like, looking back now, I remember, like, in middle school, seeing people in the locker room and, like, just eyeing, you know. But, like, at the time, it was just. It just was because I didn't know anything different. But then I was. I was like, 13, and I wrote you guys a letter saying, I'm attracted to guys, but not in that way, because in my head it was like, oh, I'll ever overcome this? I'll. This is just a trial. I'm going to marry a woman in the temple. Of course, like, duh. That's what I believed anyways. And then so, like, when I came out in the letter, I remember you picked me up from the bus stop later that day and tried talking to me about it. And I refused. Like, I looked out the window, like, the other way and refused to talk about it. And I was like, 12, 13.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Donna, what do you remember about that letter?

Donna Showalter [00:23:09] I remember he felt typewritten letter.

John Dehlin [00:23:11] What year would that have been about?

Michael Showalter [00:23:14] I was 2012.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] You were 13.

Donna Showalter [00:23:18] That makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] 12.

Michael Showalter [00:23:19] 13.

Donna Showalter [00:23:20] Yeah.

Michael Showalter [00:23:21] I was like, I. I typed out the letter and then I deleted it off the computer because I'm like, I never want to remember this. I really remember this. Yeah. It would have been interesting to look back. I'm sure you threw it away or shredded.

Donna Showalter [00:23:31] Oh, I totally did. Well, so approximately the year, I would say probably 2012.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] Okay, so this is before, like, my TED talk. This is long before Encircle.

Donna Showalter [00:23:41] Oh, long.

Michael Showalter [00:23:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Yeah. This is when the church probably. I don't know if the Mormon engaged website had come out yet.

Donna Showalter [00:23:48] If it had, it was not on my radar, like, there. Nothing LGBT was on my radar at all.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] So you.

Michael Showalter [00:23:53] Because there was no reason for it to be.

Donna Showalter [00:23:54] No. And anytime it was talked about or it was on the news, like, we would change the channel or we'd scoff at it or, you know, like.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] So you weren't a liberal, progressive Mormon at this point?

Donna Showalter [00:24:02] Oh, no.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] What type of Mormon were you, Donna?

Michael Showalter [00:24:05] Zero percent liberal.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Give us a sense for how incredibly conservative.

Donna Showalter [00:24:11] Like, if it came over the pulpit, it was gospel truth.

John Dehlin [00:24:15] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:24:15] If the prophet said it or my bishop said it or the stake president said it, it was gospel truth.

Michael Showalter [00:24:20] Outside of the church, like, in terms of politically.

Donna Showalter [00:24:24] Politically, I was staunch Republican. As far right as you could possibly go. If there was a further right, I would have gone there.

Michael Showalter [00:24:31] Not as far right. She wasn't, like, super intense. Like, I wasn't in your face, like, but judgy But I knew what I

Donna Showalter [00:24:40] knew, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. And I.

Donna Learns Her Son Is Gay

John Dehlin [00:24:43] Okay, so your thought. So what went through your mind when you get this letter?

Donna Showalter [00:24:48] It was out of the blue. First of all, he hands a sealed envelope to Steve and a sealed envelope to me and says to us both, do not read this when I'm around, and I will never speak with you about it. And we're like, I had no idea.

Michael Showalter [00:25:00] I don't think I said, I'll never speak to you about it, but I wrote in the letter, don't talk to me about this.

Donna Showalter [00:25:04] I do remember that too.

Michael Showalter [00:25:05] And you tried talking to me about it because you're a good mom.

Donna Showalter [00:25:08] Thanks. So Steve goes to work. I was in school at the time, a non traditional student. So I was at BYU studying landscape management and got to school, parked my car and pulled out the letter, opened it up, started to read it.

Michael Showalter [00:25:23] I opened it up on the left side from the right.

Donna Showalter [00:25:26] You did what? Stop. Anyway, so I read the letter and I remember that phrase, I'm attracted to guys, but not in that way. And I was like, what does that even mean? And I start to, like, that's. I started to shake, but it was like on the inside, like my hands weren't shaking, but I don't know, physiological reaction. Finished reading the letter and. And in the letter it said, but I'm, you know, I'm gonna be faithful and nothing's changed and I haven't done anything wrong and just all these things and. And I was beside myself and I. So confused and distraught. And I remember going into the Clyde Building, into the bathroom there and calling Steve. And like, on the way to the bathroom, and I'm shaking. My whole body's shaking at this point. And I. And I said, did you read the letter? And he said, yes. And I said, what does this mean? Like, I was panicking. I was having, I think.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] What were your worries? What were your fears? What, what. What was causing you to shake your thoughts and your feelings, what were they?

Donna Showalter [00:26:30] My thoughts were the gay agenda. And I didn't even know really what that meant. But. But I grew up in the 80s in California and the AIDS epidemic and people dying and the horror of that and seeing it firsthand and the way people died in pain. And that's all I knew because I had purposely not learned anything ever. That's all I knew was all the negative stuff. I was afraid that he would be sexually abused or assaulted, that he would wind up with AIDS and die a horrible death and I would take care of him in his last days. And I would bury my son. I mean, I always go to the darkest, deepest place that he would be bullied in school. That. That. What would the neighbors think? What would our ward think?

Michael Showalter [00:27:20] I remember I put it. I. I don't remember at what time period. I put an equality sticker on the back of their car and they took it off.

Donna Showalter [00:27:27] Cuz they were worried about the next day. They'll think that we agree. I know. Well, anyway, so Steve talked me down. He's like, no, this isn't a thing. He hasn't even hit puberty yet. Like, how could he possibly know this? We'll talk with him. It'll be fine. And I was like, okay. I ripped that note into so many tiny little pieces and put half of it in the trash can in that bathroom and half of it in another trash can in another building.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] Oh my gosh.

Donna Showalter [00:27:53] Because I'm like. Because I didn't want anybody to find it. Like, what if they find this? And what will they think? And.

Michael Showalter [00:27:58] And the world was gonna end because

John Dehlin [00:28:00] it's the worst possible nightmare.

Donna Showalter [00:28:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] At the time.

Donna Showalter [00:28:04] Yeah. There was so much shame. I felt so much shame. And I don't. I don't even know how. Like why I can't. I don't know. But. But also a lot of fear because

Michael Showalter [00:28:20] all of a sudden you're perfect golden boy. This perfect child may not be in heaven with you.

Donna Showalter [00:28:26] Well, we had conversations in bed. Like, you know, our other kids have made choices that made us sad, you know, whatever. And. And Michael was our grand finale. He was the one who was going to redeem us. He was going to be the one who proved that we were saying grand finale.

Michael Showalter [00:28:40] I hate that.

Donna Showalter [00:28:41] Sorry. That we were. That we were good parents after all. Right, so now he's coming and. Oh. And so we're like, what could possibly go wrong with Michael? Well, he's so perfect. Like, nothing could go wrong with him. Like, what if he starts taking drugs? He would never do that. What if he has? He would never do, you know, like. So we basically felt like we are in the home stretch and we're. And we're home free. And life from here is going to be clear sailing and fields full of dandelions and daisies. Rainbows. Rainbows. Anyway,

Michael Showalter [00:29:14] now literally anything with a rainbow on it, you send me a picture of. Or like, get it.

Donna Showalter [00:29:19] He doesn't do rainbows, but I'm tacky.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] So how did. How did you deal with that? The aftermath of that.

Donna Showalter [00:29:26] I went home and asked him if we could talk about it. And he said no. And that was it?

Michael Showalter [00:29:32] That he even say no?

Donna Showalter [00:29:34] No. Yeah, he said, no, I won't talk about it. And that was it. He. He shut his mouth, and he did not open it for another six months.

Michael Showalter [00:29:40] No.

Donna Showalter [00:29:41] And like, two or three days later, like, he refused to talk about it. And so it kind of went underground again, I guess. You know, like, I had a knot in my stomach for two or three, four days, and then we weren't talking about it. He wasn't talking about it.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] And details don't matter. Each of you can kind of remember

Michael Showalter [00:29:58] it how you remember it felt like a really long time that it was just me.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:30:03] Things went back to normal.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] So what was that? What was it? What was their response like, for you, Michael?

Michael Showalter [00:30:07] How they reacted? Yeah, it was how I expected, and it was honestly how I felt because I. I didn't want to be gay. Like, why do I have to go through this trial? And, like, after a while, I was like, why am I still going through this? Like, I've been praying. I've been going to the temple. I've been going to church. I'm doing everything I should be doing that should be making me normal or what I thought was normal, and nothing was happening. Like, I. Like, soon after I get sent that letter or gave that letter to them, I talked to the bishop about my same sex attractions, and he reacted as if I was addicted to porn. He literally told me he was gonna treat it as if I was addicted to porn. And so, like, he. I printed off temples. I had them on my wall. He said, memorize temples.

Donna Showalter [00:30:59] I remember that.

Michael Showalter [00:31:00] Yeah, I had, like, temples all over my walls with, like, what temple it was underneath. And I would, like, mix and match to, like, memorize the temples.

Donna Showalter [00:31:09] We played the matching game with the temples.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] So what was the intervention? The idea is, if you put pictures of temples on your walls, what will happen?

Michael Showalter [00:31:16] Well, he. He said whenever I thought of a naked man or was attracted to someone. I don't think he ever said attracted to, because that wasn't. That's what. That wasn't what it was. It was a sin. You know, it. It wasn't natural, he said, to, like, think of a temple and think of a temple rather than the naked man or the. Whatever you're thinking about.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] So how did that intervention work for you?

Michael Showalter [00:31:40] I mean, I'm like, I was all for it because I wanted to change. I was like, yay, I'll do this. And it didn't really work out. Like, what happened?

John Dehlin [00:31:49] How did that play out?

Michael Showalter [00:31:51] I mean, obviously it didn't work. I'm still gay. But I mean, like, I would try that. I tried for a really long time. And then it just, it's like three years after I think I gave you guys the letter, I. There was, it was like a realization. It was like, oh, this is who I am. Why am I ashamed of this? This obviously isn't changing. Why am I living in fear?

John Dehlin [00:32:15] So that was by the time you're 16? About.

Michael Showalter [00:32:17] Yeah, I was, it was like a few weeks before my 16th birthday.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] Were there dark moments between 13 and 16? Oh, was it just so busy you didn't have to worry about it, did you?

Michael Showalter [00:32:26] Just, I think the majority of the time I was pushing it down and I just wasn't thinking about. Because I didn't want to think about it. It just, I didn't want it to rule me.

Michael's Early Awareness and Coming Out at Sixteen

John Dehlin [00:32:37] So what did you fill your Life with from 13 to 16?

Michael Showalter [00:32:40] Honestly, I, I, I was, like, popular in middle school and high school. Like, I was straight A student. No one, like, questioned anything about me or who I was. Like, people enjoyed being around me.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] What were your hobbies?

Michael Showalter [00:32:53] What were my hobbies?

John Dehlin [00:32:54] Interests?

Michael Showalter [00:32:55] I did student council. I was in a ton of different clubs.

Donna Showalter [00:32:59] 4H.

Michael Showalter [00:33:00] 4H. Ooh, 4H. Oh, 4H. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Is that animals?

Michael Showalter [00:33:07] There's like two sides of it. There's like, animals and then leadership. I was on, like, the leadership leadership side, kind of integrated with leadership. But everyone in 4H was, like, extremely LDS.

Donna Showalter [00:33:17] Oh, and extreme 4H too. It was awesome.

Michael Showalter [00:33:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] What about, like, deacon, teacher, priest? Did you.

Michael Showalter [00:33:24] I was deacon president. Yeah. I got my ego at 13. I was Deacon president. What's a teacher president? And then I don't think I was ever priest president because at that point I was like, bye.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Did you date? Try dating girls? You know, up until you were 16, like when you were turned 16.

Michael Showalter [00:33:44] I never, like. So the rules or whatever is like, you have to go on double dates only when you're 16. And obviously I wasn't like, yeah, before I was 16, I was in my head about everything. And by the time I turned 16, I was like, wait, I'm gay. So I didn't even, like, try going on dates with girls. I didn't, like, try to change myself by having more interactions with women or girls or anything like that. It just, I didn't think about it.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] How did you resolve things with your bishop during those three years? Did the bishop just forget about it? Did you just stop talking about it? Did he check in with you? Regularly.

Michael Showalter [00:34:23] I think after a while I started telling him what he wanted to hear,

John Dehlin [00:34:26] which was, it's working. Okay.

Michael Showalter [00:34:29] Like, I'm, I'm changing. It's helping. Like, I think of the temples and he's like, yay, great. And, and I, and I, and I remember when he like first, when I first told him I was attracting men, he's like, dude, temple sing. He told me I need to stop taking sacrament for like two weeks.

John Dehlin [00:34:48] Okay. All right. So what made you. So did you tell anyone else that, that you were gay between 13 and 16?

Michael Showalter [00:34:55] I told, I think one person, Bryn Castleton. And I remember I told Bryn Castleton. And then I told my parents that I told Bryn and my dad when, when Bryn came over to hang out, my dad literally pulled Bryn aside away from me and said, this is a really big secret and this is very important that Michael shared this with you and it's very important that you don't share this with anyone else. It was like the big kept secret of the century. So my parents, including me, wanted to push it away. And it wasn't existent if you didn't think about it.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] Right. Any thoughts about that? Any reactions?

Donna Showalter [00:35:36] I just remember, I remember when he told Bryn and that was really scary for me because I thought if she tells anyone, then this is out and it can never be brought back in. You know what I mean? There will always be somebody who thinks that he's gay. And, and, and I, at that point I didn't know, like, can this be changed? I didn't know anything. You know, so we just like, keep it down, keep it quiet, don't tell anyone. You know, we just didn't want anybody to know.

John Dehlin [00:36:07] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:36:07] So I remember being in that conversation and I remember talking with Steve and saying, if we have this conversation with Bryn, Michael needs to be included in it. Like, it needs to be like a little discussion. But that didn't happen. So. So it was in the laundry room, actually.

Michael Showalter [00:36:21] Oh, there was. There was also this girl that had a really, really big crush on me for, I think, baby, don't say your name for like eight months.

Donna Showalter [00:36:29] Oh, I love her.

Michael Showalter [00:36:30] She wouldn't care if I said her name. But for like eight months. And then I was planning on. I told one of her friends. It was, it was at the point where I was starting to like, tell a lot of people because I'm like, this is me. Why do I care? I told one of her friends because I was really nervous to tell her. And then her friend told her that I was gay and then Bryn the girl I came out to originally and this girl that I had a crush on, they had, like, an intervention with me about how it was gonna change everything. Like, they literally told me it was gonna change, like, our friend group, and it was gonna make everything different. And since then, they've both, like, talked to me and they're like, I don't know why I did that. I'm so sorry. That's so stupid. You're still Michael. You're amazing. I love you.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] Like, so what was it like to have so many people want you to press this down, to keep it a secret, to feel like it was this shameful, dirty kind of secret?

Michael Showalter [00:37:22] I think I felt the same way. So I was okay with it for a long time. I. I wanted to keep it a secret. And it was something to be shameful of, like, ashamed of. It was something I didn't want to share with people because it was so wrong. But my family's definitely, definitely the stubborn type, including all my siblings and everything. But. So, like, when I realized that I wasn't going to change and I didn't want to change since then, I was like, okay. Like, I remember waking up one day and my mom's like, are you going to go to church? I'm like, no. And I rolled over and went back to bed.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] So that was when you were 16. Was that the first step is you saying, I'm not going to church?

Michael Showalter [00:38:02] Yeah. And I wasn't like, in my mind at that time. I remember it just look like, eh.

Donna Showalter [00:38:08] No, I remember he came out publicly and stopped going to church around the same time. Like within weeks, actually.

Michael Showalter [00:38:16] Why would I be in a place where people were telling me I was less than or that it wasn't worth.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] So you tried for three years to press it down? Oh, yeah. And at some point, you reached a breaking point. And in your mind, what did you. What did you concluded by that. By that 16th year, this is me.

Michael Showalter [00:38:36] Why am I hiding it? Okay, why. Why should I be ashamed of this? Why am I being told this is wrong just because I love someone?

John Dehlin [00:38:43] And had that. Had you. Had you dated boys yet? Have you.

Michael Showalter [00:38:46] No, I. I didn't have anything. No. I had my first kiss three months after it came out, and it was a guy. Okay, so my first kiss.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] Yeah, first kiss period. And then had you made any conclusions about the church during this time when you had decided just intellectual or theological conclusions about the church when you had decided that you didn't want to just pretend anymore and hide it?

Michael Showalter [00:39:06] Frankly, I didn't care Because I wasn't going to give my time of day to something that was telling me I was less than. I was just. I don't know, it was just really 180.

Donna Showalter [00:39:20] And Michael's always been all in on whatever he's doing, whether it was 4H or priesthood or whatever. So when he makes up his mind to something, then that's what's going to happen. So when. When he came out and said, you know, church isn't the place for me, that was that.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Okay, so you. By 16, you decided the church wasn't for you when you.

Michael Showalter [00:39:41] It wasn't so much that I'd actively thought that it wasn't true or that everything that I said was like a lie, but I'm like, you know, I don't want to be here. I don't feel safe. I don't feel comfortable. And I did for a really long time because I fit into this little box.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Right.

Michael Showalter [00:39:57] I was perfect because I did everything on the outside. And then as soon as I didn't fit into that box, I no longer felt welcome. And maybe it was just in my head.

John Dehlin [00:40:08] So had you concluded by 16 the church wasn't true then, or had you not drawn that conclusion? Conclusion.

Michael Showalter [00:40:12] I just didn't really care.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] Didn't care?

Michael Showalter [00:40:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] I wanted to be happy.

Michael Showalter [00:40:15] Why would I give it at my time of day? Like my sister, by the time I chose that, my sister was atheist. My brother was Buddhist. My other brother was Hindu. I don't think he was Hindi Hindu at that time.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] And this is. This is a nightmare to your Mormon dream? Donna, all your kids are leaving the

Donna Showalter [00:40:31] church, and you have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] You're like relief study President Provo near the temple.

Donna Showalter [00:40:36] I remember when our oldest son said that he wasn't going to go on a mission. My first thought was, we need to move. Like, I cannot. I. I don't even know how to function like. Or what will we tell the neighbors? You know, what will people think?

Michael Showalter [00:40:50] Because there was a shame, so much

Donna Showalter [00:40:52] shame surrounding a kid not going on a mission, you know, and judgment.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] Yes.

Michael Showalter [00:41:00] And you would be seen more as like the. Oh, poor Donna.

Donna Showalter [00:41:04] Oh, yeah, her.

Michael Showalter [00:41:05] Her kid has gone astray.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] So what was that like? How did that feel for you and your husband to have, you know, other kids had left the church, and now your son was leaving. What was that like at first? Were you like. Were you like, this can't be. We've got to keep it together. We've got to hide it still. How are you feeling?

Donna Showalter [00:41:22] We. We forced our kids to go to church. Like, this is what we do on Sunday morning. You get up, you put your Sunday clothes on. We go to church. And you never forced me.

Michael Showalter [00:41:32] Thank you.

Donna Showalter [00:41:32] We didn't. Because by the time.

Michael Showalter [00:41:34] To the point where I'm. I'm the youngest, and so, like, you had all the experimenting of the older siblings.

Donna Showalter [00:41:39] We. We did our very best with the knowledge we had at the time. Our kids had ipods, and they were very important to them, their ipods. And so that was the. That was the leverage, I guess, that we used to get them to church. If you go to church, you get to keep. You get to have your iPad this week, ipod. And if you don't go to church, then your ipod is gone until next Sunday morning when you get up and go to church, and then you get your ipod back. I mean, it was very good parenting. Not really. It was pretty coercive, you know, but we thought if we can just get them there. See, we thought you get them doing the right thing, and then eventually they will do the right thing for the right reason.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] Right?

Donna Showalter [00:42:16] So if we can just get them to church, even if they hate going, there will be some seed of truth or a particle of the spirit that they will feel, and. And then they will be. They'll go, oh, I never thought of it that way. And they would want to be there, and then they would live this righteous life that we had pictured for them. And that backfired big time. Big time.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] So, Michael, when you had the idea of coming out to your, what, family, friends, high school, class, like, what was your idea coming out?

Michael Showalter [00:42:50] I remember I was, like, sitting at the computer talking to someone at my school and just being, like, super excited that I finally, like, realized that I shouldn't be ashamed of it. And I started, like, texting people. I just texted, like, a few random people, my. Guess what? And they're like, what, I'm gay? And then the majority, like, cool. But then, like, some people that I came out to.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] And this is what, High school.

Michael Showalter [00:43:14] Temp View. High School.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] Temp View High School.

Michael Showalter [00:43:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] In the heart of Provo, Utah.

Michael Showalter [00:43:18] In the heart.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] And what was the. What was the climate around LGBT issues at your. At temp view in 2000? And what.

Michael Showalter [00:43:27] I just don't think it was on a lot of people's radar. People just didn't know, okay, there were

Donna Showalter [00:43:33] gay people at Temp View, but they did not come out at Tempe.

Michael Showalter [00:43:37] Like, there were a few.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] Was there a Gay Straight Alliance? Was there.

Michael Showalter [00:43:41] There had been a Gay Straight alliance for one year.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:43:43] And there were five people in it.

Michael Showalter [00:43:45] Yeah, something like that. But the people that were out just weren't very, like, public about it. They didn't dress like they were gay or anything like that. But when I came out, like.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] So there weren't a lot of out gay kids at Tim View at the time.

Michael Showalter [00:44:00] I can think of.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Okay, and this is around 2016. What year is this?

Michael Showalter [00:44:05] Yeah, about 2015.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] 2015?

Michael Showalter [00:44:08] Yeah. 2015, 2016. Okay. I was going into my junior year. And I was going into my junior year.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] This is prior to the November policy. You came out to your high school.

Michael Showalter [00:44:16] So I was out when the November policy of, like, the kids, gay kids,

Donna Showalter [00:44:21] marriage equality happened in June, I think. And he came out right after that?

Michael Showalter [00:44:24] No, it was before.

Donna Showalter [00:44:26] Was it before?

Michael Showalter [00:44:26] Yeah, it was end of May.

Donna Showalter [00:44:27] Oh.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] So at the end of your end of that high school year, 2015 of 2015, you come out. What was that like to come out at Tinview High School to a bunch of Mormon friends?

Michael Showalter [00:44:38] Well, I was like, over the summer and so I had over the summer

John Dehlin [00:44:40] to like, okay, you did over.

Michael Showalter [00:44:41] Breathe. And like, I didn't do it over the summer intentionally. It kind of just happened.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] How'd your friends react?

Michael Showalter [00:44:48] Intervention. All my, like, the two friends in the intervention told me everything was going to change. And then.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] Meaning. Meaning go back into the closet or don't do this or.

Michael Showalter [00:44:58] They never said anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] They just said, this is going to ruin everything.

Michael Showalter [00:45:02] Yeah. And I. And I believe that, like, because. And frankly that the majority of that friend group, the whole group itself, like, fell apart. Not even fell apart, but I was more like shoved out. I wouldn't say shoved out. I was just.

John Dehlin [00:45:17] So how did kids react?

Michael Showalter [00:45:20] Generally positive, because people knew me and they knew that I, generally speaking, I'm a good person, and I had positive impacts on people's lives. I like to think there were. There were those negative reactions. And the thing is, with Provo, Utah, they're passive aggressive, like, reactions. So people would talk behind my back, but I'm not there listening to them talking behind my back because if they're gonna talk behind my back if I want it or not. But there were the occasional. There was like. So I was running for student body president, and this guy posted on his Instagram page, quote, whatever you do, don't vote for Michael Gay Walter. We don't want our school run by a.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] What?

Michael Showalter [00:46:03] Yeah. That was an exciting time.

Donna Showalter [00:46:04] Oh, my God, it was horrific.

Michael Showalter [00:46:06] I remember just laying on my friend's floor just, like, crying. I'm like, why yeah, yeah. And. But the thing is, the reaction from that made people mad. They're like, are you serious? Why would you post that? Like, what's wrong with you? Because they knew me, and they knew I wasn't just some faggot at the school. Like, I was Michael.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] Right.

Michael Showalter [00:46:25] And I. I was very lucky in not having a very. Like, I wasn't scared to walk down the hallway or anything like that. And I. I dressed, like preppy, so it wasn't like any. Like that. Again, pro Utah. Very passive aggressive. Very passive aggressive.

Social Fallout and Family Navigating the News

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Okay, so on the one hand, you're saying kids generally reacted well. On the other hand, you're saying there was some bigotry and some bad moments. And you're also saying that your friend group kind of fell apart.

Michael Showalter [00:46:52] My friend group was very, very Mormon. So it wasn't so much fell apart. It's just I no longer had the beliefs, so I no longer belonged in that friend group.

Donna Showalter [00:47:01] Okay, well, Michael would be the one to get everybody together and, you know, come to my house. We're going to play in the backyard, or, you know, have a picnic, or let's all go skating, or let's all do a temple trip. And. And everybody. Everyone would come together. But after he came out, it's not

Michael Showalter [00:47:17] like I didn't have any friends. It's just they changed. My friends changed to people that truly loved me and cared about me.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] And so were they mostly non Mormon kids that were more LGBT affirming?

Michael Showalter [00:47:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] Okay.

Michael Showalter [00:47:30] Without a doubt. And of course, there were, like, I remember this one girl, she's like, wait, you're gay? And I'm like, yeah. And she's. And she. She was very old. As she said, I hope, you know, like, this doesn't change anything. You're still Michael and I love you, and you're pretty great. Like, the majority of my reactions were similar to that to my face anyways.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Okay, so. So one might say, smooth sailing. You found a new group of friends. Most kids were decent. A few, you know, a few instances of bigotry. Smooth sailing. Right.

Michael Showalter [00:48:06] Looking back, it's easy to say smooth

John Dehlin [00:48:08] sailing, but Donna's shaking her head. Well, yeah. So what happened?

Michael Showalter [00:48:13] Being told by one person that you're not enough can really tip you over the edge. And that one person can make a pretty big difference. And same, like with the whole post, I look back thinking, now, like, that's stupid. And if someone posted that today, I wouldn't care. But back then, I was so freshly out of the closet, and it was such.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] Are you saying that one post was devastating to you?

Michael Showalter [00:48:33] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:48:34] The police got involved. It was. It was really bad.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] What happened?

Donna Showalter [00:48:37] There were.

Michael Showalter [00:48:38] There were several nights where I didn't want to be alive and I didn't want to think about living in that state and the state of mind. It was a combination of people's reaction to mental illness. Most. Mostly mental illness, but it just like a cherry on top, what people were saying is there.

John Dehlin [00:48:56] What, what, what are you comfortable sharing about that?

Michael Showalter [00:48:58] Yeah, I. I have depression. I've been on Zoloft for like three, four years.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] Okay.

Michael Showalter [00:49:02] Since the incidents. So I ended up in the ER because my parents and family friends were concerned of the. My safety. I. I think I was there like three times within a year.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] Donna, what now? Let's shift to your perspective. As you're watching your son come out, you're seeing the reactions. Tell it from. Tell the story from your point of view, whatever you're comfortable sharing.

Donna Showalter [00:49:23] I feel like most of his friend group kind of fell away. There were those friends that were devoted and loyal no matter what, but a lot of them kind of fell away. And because Michael's such a social person, I think it was really hard for on him, you know, to feel really alone. Like, the people that I thought were my friends aren't really my friends or they. They've turned away from me.

Michael Showalter [00:49:43] But I didn't feel alone for long because the same way that I am a social person, I can go out and like, make friends.

Donna Showalter [00:49:49] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking, like, from my perspective, you know, my kid's been dropped by this, like, super Mormon, you know, group that I'm sort of proud that he's part of. And. And it was. It was kind of jarring for me. But then when he got. When that Instagram post was made about him, that was really hard. I got a. I got a call from the school and it was the principal. And he said, something has happened with Michael that we would need to make you aware of. And I'm like, I have never gotten a call about my. Like, Michael doesn't do stuff that make the principal call, like, what could this possibly be? And he kind of briefly explained to me what had happened. And I was at work at the time. I worked at BYU as a gardener. So I had my crew, my student crew with me. And I remember going behind this, the Eyring science building, and just crying. I couldn't stop crying. Anyway, so I had to leave school. I had to leave work. I went to the school. They explained everything to me. They showed me the picture that he posted on Instagram. It was incredibly offensive, especially what he wrote below. It was so hurtful.

Michael Showalter [00:51:02] And several people had, like, commented, like, haha. Or like, lmao is so true.

Donna Showalter [00:51:08] Just the fact that anyone would target Michael was surprising. That they would be so bigoted in that targeting was really shocking, actually. I was really taken back. Anyway, the police got involved, the boy was suspended, and then school was out, I think.

John Dehlin [00:51:29] Did you lose the election? Win the election?

Michael Showalter [00:51:31] No, I lost. I was running against the mayor's daughter, and that's my excuse.

Donna Showalter [00:51:34] Okay, so.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] But. But Don, I'm thinking like, okay, and you tell me if this is projection or irrelevant, but you'd been divorced, but then you. But then you marry the man of your dreams. You live that orthodox Mormon life, really trying to. And I think you. Mormonism in general and probably Provo in specific really tries to kind of breed perfectionism, right?

Donna Showalter [00:51:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] And so I'm guessing that you and your husband were trying to kind of have the perfect Mormon marriage and be perfect Mormons and raise perfect Mormon kids. Then you have a few kids that are kind of falling away.

Donna Showalter [00:52:11] And it wasn't optics. It wasn't so that people would think we were really trying to be that, you know.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] But then some of your kids start falling away, and then Michael's coming out as gay. What is all that like for you? Emotionally, intellectually, spiritually? How are you feeling for Michael and for yourself and for your husband and your family during this time?

Donna Showalter [00:52:37] Him coming out as gay was really, really hard. Just having to change our expectations and kind of mourn for the. For what we kind of. For what we thought his life would look like. That we knew it was. No. You know, we knew that we were not going to be having grandkids from Michael or that's what we thought. We. We. Which I remember crying every single day for hours and hours and hours and crying myself to sleep. And Sundays were the worst. We would get up and Michael wasn't coming to church with us. And. And that was like, unless he'd come out.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] So everyone in the ward knew you had a gay son?

Donna Showalter [00:53:19] I don't know that everybody knew. I think. I think a few people knew. Okay, so. But. Yeah, but. But he had stopped coming. And so especially the older people who aren't on Facebook. Where's Michael? You know, and. And at first I was like, oh, he doesn't feel good today. Or whatever. You know, he's visiting.

Michael Showalter [00:53:33] I came out on, like, Instagram several months after I came out, like, to Friends that I actually cared about. And then several months after that, I came out on Facebook. So my grandma actually found out I was gay from my Facebook post?

Donna Showalter [00:53:45] Oh, no. She found out from. Wait, which grandma?

Michael Showalter [00:53:49] Pierce? No, wait. Maybe it was. I don't know, someone. Family member, Facebook post.

John Dehlin [00:53:54] But at some point, kind of. Everyone knew, right?

Michael Showalter [00:53:56] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:53:56] Oh, yeah. Over time, yeah, people knew.

John Dehlin [00:53:58] So what's that like for you?

Donna Showalter [00:54:00] Um, it was really.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] We have a gay kid. You know, we're in Provo. We have the gay kid. I'm Relief Society president or.

Donna Showalter [00:54:06] Oh. Sundays, I would get up in the morning, put my makeup on, and then have to reapply before I even went to church because I had already started crying. And I would go to sacrament meeting and weep all through sacrament meeting, and Steve, too, people could tell that something was wrong. People could see us crying, and they were like, what could possibly be going on? You know? And we weren't willing to talk about it, really. And so it was just this, like, mystery in the ward, you know, what's going on with the show, Walter? Something's going on. At one point, one of the members of the Bishop Bridge followed us outside as we were leaving. And I'm just, like. I'm crying so hard, and Steve's got his arms around me, and he's, like, guiding me outside. And this member of the bishopric came and followed us out. And he said, guys, I don't know what is going on, but I can tell that something is really hard for you. And he said, I just want you to know I love you, thinking about you, and I hope everything's okay. And we just said, okay, thanks. And we went home. I cried all day long on Sundays, usually, like, in the fetal position in my bed. Like, it was really, really.

John Dehlin [00:55:17] And when you're crying, what are the thoughts and worries going through your mind?

Donna Showalter [00:55:21] Sorry.

Michael Showalter [00:55:22] No, don't be sorry.

Donna Showalter [00:55:23] I would. I would come home from church and go check on Michael because. Because although he might be suicidal, it's Sunday, and we got to go to church. So I would go into his room and check on him, and I would just pull up a chair because he didn't let me sit on his bed because it squished down too far in the middle. And anyway, so I sat on a chair opposite him. I'm like, just checking in, like, how are you doing? You know? But you could tell I'd been crying. And one day, he just looked at me and he said, mom, I'm so sorry that I've disappointed you so much. And I'm so sorry. He said, I know. I know that you're crying is because of me. And that was really hard for me to hear because I hadn't really thought about the fact that I'm mourning for what I thought. And I'm scared for his future. But I'm also having to. Like, I'm trying to help and support him, keep him alive, but I'm also struggling with what this means for me and our family and our life. And I, at that point, stopped crying in front of him. At least, you know, I would still cry all through church. And then I would, like, try to get it together before I went home and wouldn't let him see me for an hour or so because you can tell when I've been crying. I went to the temple a lot. Lots of praying, lots of crying in bed.

Michael Showalter [00:56:51] Why were you crying?

Donna Showalter [00:56:53] I don't. I can't. Because you were gay. Like, what does this mean? Like, I didn't know what it meant. Like, what does this mean for us?

Michael Showalter [00:57:00] It's a bombshell. It's like, he's not going to be there in the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] You said, will he get aids? Obviously, he won't be in the social kingdom. I won't have grandkids.

Donna Showalter [00:57:09] He said. He said to me one time, like, where's my eternal family? Like, I will never have an eternal family. And. And I. And it dawned on me, oh, my gosh, he's right. Like, there's no place for him in the plan. And he said that there's no place for me in the plan of happiness. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you're right. But then I thought, well, there has to be somehow. And that's when I started, like, searching for answers. And, like, how could this fit? We've got to make this fit somehow.

Michael Showalter [00:57:31] It directly says that it doesn't fit. I know there's no loophole for the gays.

Donna Showalter [00:57:35] I was determined to find a way, because there has to be a way, because there's no way that God would keep him, this one, out of heaven because he is so amazing. And so I started trying to make it fit. But I also started to pray, like, in my prayers, kneeling beside my bed, pray that I would die. I wasn't going to kill myself, but I wanted to die, because why? Because I.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] The pain was too much.

Donna Showalter [00:58:04] My other three children have already left the church, and that is a heavy load to bear. Michael, our sweet, sweet Michael. I don't know what this means for him. His future's super scary now.

Michael Showalter [00:58:20] And whereas Your other kids had the option to leave, and there was nothing necessarily pushing them away. I felt like I didn't do anything. I did everything right, and it just was.

Donna Showalter [00:58:32] None of it made sense. Steve, I didn't know this at the time, was praying to die, too. And at one point, we talked about it. We were laying in bed, and he told me that he had been praying that he would die, and we were crying and stuff. Anyway, a couple days or weeks later, I don't know, I was still praying that I would die, but he called me at work, and he said, don, I had a dream. And I won't go into the specifics of the dream out of respect for him, but basically he said, we have got to stop praying that we will die. That's a sin. And I cried and cried and cried because I thought, you know, all I want to do is die. Like, and now I'm. Now I can't. So. Yeah, so just lots and lots of fear, sadness, uncertainty, and a lot of crying. And at the time he came out, when he came out publicly, I was the Relief Society president, and I would sit at the front of the room. You know, the presidency sits at the front of the room. And so I would sit there and try to hold it together during Relief Society, and I could not. I cried and cried and cried. And

Michael Showalter [00:59:48] looking back, isn't it funny?

Donna Showalter [00:59:51] It's just sad. It's just really sad. But I remember at some point telling my secretary that Michael was gay. She was so kind and so loving, and. But I said, that's why I cry all the time, you know, And. And it was. That was one of the roughest years that we've. That we've had, I think, you know, just the uncertainty. And I have so much love and respect and admiration for Michael, and. And his being gay did not fit into any. Any paradigm that I could come up with. It didn't fit into the narrative. And.

Michael Showalter [01:00:29] But that never changed how you loved me or how you treated me ever.

Donna Showalter [01:00:34] Absolutely not.

Michael Showalter [01:00:35] I. Like, I.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] How did she treat you?

Michael Showalter [01:00:38] The same. She loved me. She loved who I was.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] What did that mean? How did she express her love? How did she communicate that love to you?

Donna Showalter [01:00:45] I cried

Michael Showalter [01:00:48] just, like, how she said she would come in my bed in the morning or, like, come into my room in the morning, and sometimes she would just, like, sit, like, kneel on the side of my bed, just hold my hand and just be there because she wanted to be around me. And, like, I missed that when I can't remember how this came about. We were at the doctors, and she was, like, in the room with me and the doctor, and she's like, can we also do STD testing? So, like, even though you, I'm sure, didn't want me to be sexually active, you knew I probably was, or were you going to. You wanted to make sure I was safe like you were.

A Parent's Fears for Her Gay Son's Future

Donna Showalter [01:01:21] And I thought, we can handle the gay. We can handle that. But there's also the realization for me one day that, oh, my gosh, at some point in his life, he's probably going to have sex with a man. And my head just exploded. I'm like, you know, can't. I can't even.

Michael Showalter [01:01:36] But even though it exploded, you wanted me to be safe, and you knew it was my choice to make. And by telling the doctor, like, do STD testing, that's. And you didn't kick me out of the house or anything like that. You loved me. And even though you were upset and you didn't understand what was happening or why it was happening to you and it didn't fit in your belief system, you still love me. Undoubtedly. And so did dad. Dad, like, always has. He's. He still tells me he loves me. He's proud of me, like, always, always, always, always. And just because I didn't fit into this little. It's not little because it's. It was your whole life. Just because I didn't fit into that box doesn't mean that I'm.

Donna Showalter [01:02:17] He's still Michael. Yeah, it's the same person he was. He was the. The millisecond before he told us. I mean, nothing's changed, but he hasn't changed.

Michael Showalter [01:02:25] Unfortunately. A lot of parents don't see it like that. It's. You're gay, get out. You're doing drugs, get out.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] Right. So what does that mean to you, to have your parents show you love and support?

Donna Showalter [01:02:35] Did you ever think that? Was there ever a thought in your mind if they know, they'll kick me out or.

Michael Showalter [01:02:39] No, never. That never even crossed my mind.

Donna Showalter [01:02:42] And maybe I was a successful parent.

Michael Showalter [01:02:44] You were. You were a very, very, very good mom and dad. Was a very good dad. And my dad raised three kids from her previous marriage. They were all below the age of six. He has been a father since. They were, like, incredible, incredible man. But for my coming out and, like, how I appreciated love, I really took it for granted. And I didn't understand that a lot of people didn't have, like, this, like, my parents never fought. I've never seen my parents yell at each other. Or anything like that.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Wow.

Michael Showalter [01:03:19] Ever.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Wow.

Michael Showalter [01:03:20] Yeah. And now I realize how rare that is, unfortunately.

Donna Showalter [01:03:27] Shapes. Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [01:03:33] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org

Donna Showalter [01:03:44] inspection

John Dehlin [01:03:48] rabbit hole. An album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com.

Donna Showalter [01:04:12] It doesn't matter

Michael Showalter [01:04:16] now.

Donna Showalter [01:04:17] It's not just boy disguise. Teacups full of love Candy co.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1149

Donna Showalter [00:00:03] Shapes. Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. So what made you still feel suicidal even though you had the love and support of your parents?

Michael's Struggle with Mental Health and Suicidal Crisis

Michael Showalter [00:01:12] I don't know. For. For me, those feelings, they weren't in my mind at the time. They weren't attached to my same sex attraction. It was, it was for me. The way I, like, explain depression to people now is. It's not logical really. And at that time, I would get into this hole of people don't love me, no one cares about me. And it wasn't because I was gay. It was just me. Just. People don't, like, just dig that hole deeper and deeper. And I wasn't able to, like, pull myself out of it. I wasn't able to, like, say to myself, oh, this is unrealistic. This is just your mind taking you away. And like.

Donna Showalter [00:01:56] But I feel like there was also, especially after he came out, a lot of social pressure, Losing that friend group, having. Having family members and friends say, you just need to have more faith.

Michael Showalter [00:02:05] Oh, yeah, there was lots of expectations and like, I don't tie it directly to the people, the way people reacted, but without a doubt, I'm sure. Well, it did definitely contribute. Like, when I came out to my cousin, she. I can't remember how exactly, but I asked her if she would come to my wedding and she said, I don't know. And she. I was so close to her. Like, she was one of my best friends. And when she said, I don't know if you'll come to my wedding, that, like, broke me. And since then, she's like, talked to me and she's like, of course I'll come to your wedding. I don't know what I was thinking. But, like, going back to one night specifically, it was a very bad night. Ended up in a car chase with one of my friends in the car behind me, and I was driving very frantically.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] Why a cartoon?

Michael Showalter [00:02:51] Because my friends were worried about me and, like, they knew where I was and they, like, tracked me down.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] And you're worried you're Gonna hurt yourself?

Michael Showalter [00:03:00] Yeah. I was worried I was gonna hurt myself. But when I was like racing away in the car, I wasn't like, I need to go to a cliff or anything like that. Like, I wasn't thinking. It was just, I don't want to be around people. Like, but.

Donna Showalter [00:03:13] But from the outside it was like, oh, no. He wants to get to a place where he can do harm to himself.

Michael Showalter [00:03:18] Oh, yeah, without a doubt. And that. Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:03:20] And we can't.

Michael Showalter [00:03:20] Yeah, yeah. And eventually the police pulled me over. And I remember I was sitting in the car and by that time my mom had like joined the chase and my headlights were on and she runs up and kneels in front of the car.

Donna Showalter [00:03:34] Well, the policeman is like, stop running. Stop running. Because I'm booking it toward the car to my. To my baby. And the policeman is standing and he's like, stop running. And he puts his hand on his gun holster. And I was like, oh, he thinks I'm gonna attack him. Like, I need to stop. So I instantly dropped to my knees and put my hands in the air.

Michael Showalter [00:03:53] Like, I promise you're like bawling this whole time. Like, oh, I had already staring at me in the car. That was like, oh, my actions affect other people.

Donna Showalter [00:04:04] I just remember I was crying. Like I had my hands in the air and I'm saying, I'm like yelling to the policeman, that's my son. It's my son. And. And then he let me up and. But it was. It was very dramatic. It was a very, very scary night.

Michael Showalter [00:04:18] Definitely a wake up.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] And. And that's when you went to the hospital.

Michael Showalter [00:04:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] And what type of time did you get? What's that?

Michael Showalter [00:04:26] One of the times. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] Was that the first time?

Michael Showalter [00:04:31] I don't know. I don't know.

Donna Showalter [00:04:32] I don't think it was the first time.

Michael Showalter [00:04:33] I think two of the times after that slash before were unnecessary in my opinion.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] But others had. Others had called for you.

Michael Showalter [00:04:41] Yeah, exactly. But others around me were scared of my safety, which is completely fair. And they care about me and they want to make sure I'm safe.

Deciding to Call for Help During a Mental Health Emergency

John Dehlin [00:04:47] So when you're care just for those who are listening, who may have a child or a loved one, who's. Who they're worried about. Talk about that decision to call and how that intervention can be helpful.

Michael Showalter [00:05:00] To call. What do you mean to call?

John Dehlin [00:05:01] To call for me either to call 911 or to take someone to the emergency room. How do you deal with a loved one that you worry may be suicidal?

Michael Showalter [00:05:15] I've had. I've had very close friends that have been suicidal. And I've. This has happened multiple occasions where I've had to, like, call the police in order to keep them safe. And in my mindset, I'm like, I love you too much to lose you. You better not be doing anything. And it's interesting saying that, because for some reason, when I'm in the situation of being depressed and, like, wanting to hurt myself or wanting to do something, I'm not. Like, I'm not thinking about the people I love. And as weird as that sounds, like, it's just. It's just me. I'm the only one that matters. And it was very selfish, but I

Donna Showalter [00:05:50] don't think it's selfish.

Michael Showalter [00:05:51] It's. It's selfish looking back because I wasn't thinking about how it would affect other people around me.

Donna Showalter [00:05:58] And, And.

Michael Showalter [00:05:59] But it's not selfish because I wasn't thinking about it. Like, it was just.

Donna Showalter [00:06:03] I don't think it's a selfish act. I think you. You get into a headspace where it's. It's impossible to think about what other people are thinking. The pain is so much and so strong that all you can think is, I have to get out of this somehow. And if. And if. If suicide is the way to end this pain, then that's what I will do. And a lot of times I think when. When someone's suicidal, there's this feeling of I'm a burden to my family or my friends or whatever, and they would be better off without me and they won't miss me anyway. And I think that's a very real feeling that. That is like, if I were to think that I believe that thought, I believe that I am a burden and that people would be better off without me.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:06:51] So I don't think it comes from a place of selfishness, just maybe despair and extreme sadness.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] And so how did they help? How did. When it was helpful, the behavior specialists, the behavioral health unit, how was it helpful? What did they do that was helpful? Do they get you on meds? Do they have you see a psychiatrist, a psychologist?

Michael Showalter [00:07:14] I don't know at what point I got on Zoloft, but I like, talked my way out of the, like, getting checked in three different times.

John Dehlin [00:07:22] Okay. Because you never wanted to go, oh, no. Okay, so what did it. What, what did end up helping you when you were suicidal, other than your parents love?

Michael Showalter [00:07:33] I think saying other than your parents love is not giving enough credit to how.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Right.

Michael Showalter [00:07:39] How they made me feel and how I. I think in ending up in the emergency room. It wasn't so much being in the emergency room or what the specialist did. It was knowing people cared about me enough to put me there and that they wanted me around. And obviously it happened multiple times. But I. I've seen one of my really close friends, he took his life and his mom found him. And then I, like, went over and just seeing her pure loss and despair for not having her son, that really, like, I wouldn't say it was a wake up call, but I'm like, I can't ever, ever, ever, ever do this. Never, ever, ever. I care too much about the people in my life to do things that do something that would hurt them in that way. And you have to get past the point of thinking. It's not just getting past the point of thinking, because it doesn't work like that, unfortunately. It's just. It's hard to explain, but just realizing that people want you here, and it's much, much, much easier said than done, especially when you're in that situation. And it's gotten to the point where you don't think about people.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] Donna, what are you thinking and feeling anything else you want.

Michael Showalter [00:09:12] To?

Donna Showalter [00:09:16] We have a close family member who also died by suicide, And I've seen the aftermath of that on his mom and siblings, and the ripple effect just doesn't. I don't think it ever ends. And it's part of our reality every single day. And every single person who knew him would give anything to just be with him for one more minute. If I had known, every single one of us, if I had known the pain he was in, I would have run to him.

Michael Showalter [00:10:11] Thank you.

Donna Showalter [00:10:17] It's. I don't. I don't know how. There, There aren't words in the English language to describe the anguish of losing someone to suicide. And for the people who feel that that's their only alternative, there are no words to help convince them that their life has value and that things might be really, really bad right now and painful. But. But just like things can get really bad, things also get better. You know, like, there's hope for. For something more and, and something better and so that, you know, you can live a happy, good, healthy life. Things might suck right now, but that doesn't mean they always will. But also, like, in a maybe selfish way, I think. I don't think I can keep breathing if you're gone. I remember when my nephew passed away, I had to tell my kids. That was one of the hardest things I've ever done. And I remember telling them in this phone conversation that I cannot survive your death. I cannot and I don't. I wouldn't even want to. And I expressed my love for them, hopefully in a way that they. They knew that. That. That their life, it has value and it's worth living. And. And I can't live without you. I can't.

Michael Showalter [00:12:25] But when you're in that hole, it's hard to see past your hole.

Donna Showalter [00:12:30] I know. You know, I understand.

Michael Showalter [00:12:31] You don't want to see. You don't want to think about the people in your life because you're going through a lot.

Donna Showalter [00:12:40] Well, yeah, Yeah, I think the. The pain and. And that whole year and whatever is so big and dark that you cannot see anything else.

Michael Showalter [00:12:49] When I have personally gotten out of, like, gotten to the point where I can see outside of my hole, and I. When I get in those dark places, which I still do sometimes, I almost immediately like, oh, this isn't rational.

Donna Showalter [00:13:05] Yay.

Michael Showalter [00:13:07] Well, it's not so much rational because it's not irrational being in that place. It just is.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] If I can just. First of all, I want to thank you both for your vulnerability, for sharing, you know, such a sensitive, you know, journey, your relationship, your love for each other, your vulnerability. This is the type of story that saves lives, I believe. So thank you for that. If I can just add a little bit. I've studied a little bit about this, done some research, and I've counseled lots of people. I see at least there being three kind of legs to the stool in terms of suicide and suicide prevention. We know from the research of Caitlin Ryan and the Family Acceptance Project coming out of California that LGBT youth are eight times more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, eight times more likely to engage in drug use, and three times more likely to attempt suicide if they experience high levels of rejection from their family. So probably the most important leg in the three legged stool is just family acceptance. And so the Family Acceptance Project is a really important thing to learn about. There's a Mormon themed pamphlet that you can read. You can reach out to Caitlin Ryan, you can go to your local Encircle house if you live in Salt Lake or Provo and learn more about the Family Acceptance Project. But that's crucial that, just like Michael said, that having parents that say, I love you no matter what, I adore you no matter what, I don't just, you know, I don't just, like, tolerate you or accept you in spite of who you are. I embrace you because of who you are, and I celebrate you. That's sort of Key one to this equation, I think key, too, is that it's usually a social and a cultural and a religious dynamic that would make this be a problem. Obviously, if kids were raised where it didn't matter if you were gay or straight, if they were allowed to date, have crushes when they were young and have dates, and everyone in their church and in their school and all their friends and family were cool with it, it kind of wouldn't be a problem. So, you know, religion, religious culture, church culture has to become more LGBT affirming. Fortunately, in the LDS context, we've made some important strides there. Part of that due to the Encircle House and activists and researchers and podcasters and bloggers, and, you know, we've come a long way just in the past few years, and I'm grateful for that. But churches do, you know, do have a real important part to play in either creating an environment where people would feel ashamed and feel dark and want to take their lives, or want to withhold their love from their family members or friends, or even reject them. And they also have a huge role to play in building a culture in an environment of love and safety and affirmation. So we're going to continue calling on the Mormon Church and other conservative religious traditions to just become more and more, not just accepting, but embracing and celebratory of LGBT people and whatever choices they make.

Michael Showalter [00:16:39] There's a difference between accepting and tolerating.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Yeah, and embracing. Right. And celebrating and nurturing.

Michael Showalter [00:16:46] And how can you embrace if you don't tolerate or teach tolerance?

John Dehlin [00:16:50] So, like, no to rejection and bigotry, you know, a step towards what's the minimum? That's just like tolerating. Right. A step better.

Donna Showalter [00:17:01] Is what, I don't know, accepting and affirming just love.

Michael Showalter [00:17:07] There's no other way to put it than just love. Love should not have restrictions, boundaries, rules. You shouldn't love someone any less because of anything. You should just love them. And it just baffles me that some people don't love their kids enough to let them stay in the house if they're gay or if they're doing drugs or anything like that. It just.

Donna Showalter [00:17:29] I think. I think most parents love their kids. They just don't know how to react to this new information. I think parents generally love their kids and would do anything for them, but this is something that in our religious tradition has been demonized and. And the expectations are so high for Mormon kids and. And we've been taught that if our kids do things that don't fit The. I don't know if they don't toe the line, that somehow it's okay to sever those relationships or it might become necessary to sever those relationships, as Elder Christofferson would say. So I think that's just something that's taught. And end quote. So. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] So, Michael, the third leg of the stool is going to be the work you do to heal and grow, and I'm going to save that for the end. But, Donna, I'm going to ask you, how does a conservative, you know, East Bench, Provo Relief Society, Mormon mom, move from total ignorance about LGBT issues? Total fear. We gotta hide this. We gotta suppress it. This can't be my reality. How did you move from that to loving and embracing your son? What were the steps? And I mean religiously.

Donna's Journey From Fear to Unconditional Love

Donna Showalter [00:18:57] Sure. Right, sure. Lots of fasting, prayer, lots of crying. I think what changed it for me was that I've been taught my whole life that you choose God and Christ and the church above everything, even family. And. And I was 100% willing to do that until it was family. And I. I couldn't. It was never a thought in my head. He needs to move out. It was never a thought in my head. This cannot be. And. And we're gonna fix it. Okay, I take that back. That's another story, which I'll get to. But

Michael Showalter [00:19:37] it was a thought in all of our heads that. I mean, if you had mentioned conversion therapy, I would have been down.

Donna Showalter [00:19:43] That makes me.

Michael Showalter [00:19:43] I wanted to change.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] You'd have been willing to try conversion.

Donna Showalter [00:19:47] I would not have been willing to do conversion therapy. Although at the time, I didn't even know what it was. But if I. But I. I feel certain that if I had heard about it, I would have said no.

Michael Showalter [00:19:55] Yeah, I'm sure you would too. But I'm like, but we were willing

Donna Showalter [00:19:58] to do other things to change.

Michael Showalter [00:20:00] Not willing. That's how much I wanted to change.

Donna Showalter [00:20:03] And. But we did. We did try other things, but my hands. Yeah, me too. At some point, I came across. A pamphlet, the Family Acceptance Project, Caitlyn Ryan, that you're talking about. And there's really. There's a lot of words in that pamphlet, but there's a lot of pictures. And some of the pictures are very stark. You know, LGBT youth who are highly rejected by their families are eight times more likely to have suicide ideation attempts and completions, and that scared me so bad. And then there's a list on. On one of the pages of highly rejecting behaviors, and on the other page, highly accepting behaviors. And I went down the list, holding my breath, like, oh, gosh, what have I done? What damage have I done? And I went down the highly rejecting. I'm like, okay, we haven't done any of those, but we also aren't doing these things, you know? And. And I thought there was that thought in my head when my nephew passed away. I think that my thoughts of it's my fault were. Were kind of irrational. But with Michael, I thought, if he dies by suicide, without a doubt, it will be my fault. I'm his mom. I am the one person on the planet that loves him more than anyone else ever could or would or want to or is even capable of. And. And if he dies, it will be my fault. And so I read that pamphlet three or four different times, still thinking, he's gonna die. I mean, I. I honestly. Okay, here's the other thing. I saw no future for him, except

Michael Showalter [00:21:45] the church wasn't involved. It just.

Donna Showalter [00:21:46] It was dark and really, really scary. And he was going to an incredible, incredible therapist.

Michael Showalter [00:21:56] Only went once.

Donna Showalter [00:21:58] You went a couple times, but I went once. It was. There was a time that there was one day he couldn't go, so I went instead. I'm like, listen, he can't come, but can I come?

Michael Showalter [00:22:05] We're talking about Lisa. Yeah, I only went once.

Donna Showalter [00:22:07] You really. She's that amazing?

Michael Showalter [00:22:11] Everything's solved.

Donna Showalter [00:22:13] I. I went to her and I said, listen, we have an hour. I need you to tell me everything I need to do to keep my son alive. And I wrote furiously for an hour. Everything she told me, wrote it down. And then I got to a point where I just, like, held up my phone to her mouth so that she could, like, say the words so that I could go home and this would be my new study manual, my new bible. You know, I will do whatever it takes to keep him alive. And everything else falls aside. Church, family, work. Nothing else matters. When it comes down to life and death, nothing else matters. And I'm like, I am at a point where I don't care about anything else. All I want to do is keep my son alive. And there were days when I would go to wake him up for school, and I would put my hand on the doorknob of his bedroom, and I would brace myself thinking, this might be the day that I find him passed away. And. And. And I don't know that there's any way to prepare yourself for something like that. You know, I have friends who've lost their children to suicide, and. And I don't. There's no way. There's no way to. I just wanted him to be alive. Like, the future will take care of itself, but he has to be here so he can get to his future.

Michael Showalter [00:23:31] And I want to be alive.

Donna Showalter [00:23:32] I'm glad. So I.

Therapeutic Support and Key Turning Points

John Dehlin [00:23:34] So what were some of the pieces of advice the therapist gave you? What were the key?

Donna Showalter [00:23:38] So glad you asked. She said, you have to see a future for him where he can be happy. And then the next step is you have to articulate that to him. You have to help him see a future where he can be happy. And. And I had to really sit with that and think about that and change the way I thought about things. A gay wedding, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I went from. From that to. The reality is that he will probably, at some point, get married to a man. What will that look like? I mean, I don't know. You know, what will that look like? Will I be there? Of course I will be at his. Of course I will be at his wedding. I will. And I pictured myself at his wedding, and I pictured myself dancing with his husband and crying with joy and.

Michael Showalter [00:24:32] Is he cute?

Donna Showalter [00:24:33] Of course he is. He's got abs. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know.

Michael Showalter [00:24:37] Anyway, I'd rather have pecs.

Donna Showalter [00:24:39] Okay. Anyway,

John Dehlin [00:24:43] so envisioning a future for him.

Donna Showalter [00:24:44] Yes. And then using that in my language with him instead of. Instead of. You know, instead of it being all about church and expectations. It's. I remember. I remember we were in the kitchen, and I said to him, I'm so excited to meet my grandkids. I'll be. I'm. I can't wait till you bring my grandkids home. And he. And he, like, did a double take. Like, what? And I'm like, you know, if you adopt or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] And.

Donna Showalter [00:25:11] And. And he. And he's like, whoa. It was like, the first time he realized, I think, that I was thinking about these things. And I said, and I want to. And I can't wait to meet your husband or whoever you bring home. Like, we're gonna love whoever you bring home as much as we love you.

Michael Showalter [00:25:24] Well, in six months, after I came out publicly, the guy that I kissed for the first time, I brought him over, and my mom, like, hugged him, started talking to him, like, said, you're welcome here anytime.

Donna Showalter [00:25:35] He's one of us. He's one of us. There is no them and us. It's us. We're all us. And so picturing a future where he could be happy, articulating that and. And keeping that at the top of the conversation with him and then saying to him, which was really hard at first, but saying to him, any future, which in my mind had. I had to mean that any future where you're happy, which means you are sleeping with somebody new every single night or you're getting married and, you know, you're in a monogamous whatever, it doesn't matter what the future is. Any future where you're happy.

Michael Showalter [00:26:11] I love how your worst nightmare is, like, sleeping with someone new every night.

Donna Showalter [00:26:14] I know.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] That's being a parent.

Michael Showalter [00:26:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:26:18] We always think the worst. Whatever.

John Dehlin [00:26:19] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:26:21] No, no, it's not the worst. It's not the worst.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] That's what it's like to be a parent who's raised Mormon.

Michael Showalter [00:26:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] Yes, dude, I relate.

Michael Showalter [00:26:27] If you're having a good time, they're having a good time. Everyone's safe, no one's hurting anyone else. Do your thing.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] That's not how we're raised.

Michael Showalter [00:26:34] Oh, no, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] It took.

Michael Showalter [00:26:36] It took a second to get here and.

Donna Showalter [00:26:39] But I have to say this, though, that any future where you're happy is better for me than suicide.

Michael Showalter [00:26:44] I had. I had my aunt tell me, I don't know if it was a few months after my cousin took his life or if it was a few years. She told me, I don't care what you do. If you're a stripper, you're homeless, you're addicted to drugs, whatever, you're here and we need you here. And who said that?

Donna Showalter [00:27:04] Christine. Oh, baby.

Michael Showalter [00:27:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] So we've got about five minutes before you have to leave, Michael.

Michael Showalter [00:27:11] So, Donna, we can push it a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] What?

Michael Showalter [00:27:13] We can push it a little bit. A little bit.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] So, Donna, other key components of that the therapist told you or that were critical to your transformation and to helping, you know him.

Donna Showalter [00:27:28] So the Family Acceptance Project.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:27:30] An incredible therapist who.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Get help. Get. Get a therapist.

Donna Showalter [00:27:34] Get help.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Competent therapist.

Donna Showalter [00:27:36] Yes. Yes. No. Conversion therapy.

Michael Showalter [00:27:39] Non religious therapist.

John Dehlin [00:27:40] Not just that, but an LGBT affirming.

Donna Showalter [00:27:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] Whether or not they're religious educated on matters of. Yes, lgbt. I think that's critical affirmation and cultural competence around religiosity. There's actually, if you Google lgbtq, Utah Therapist Guild. There's actually a guild of therapists who are LGBT affirming. Also, I'm sure that Encircle has a list of LGBT affirming therapists that are affiliated with Encircle. And you can go to the Mormon Mental Health association. And I'm pretty sure that the Therapists listed under the Mormon Mental Health association will be competent on matters of lgbtq, but find an expert. Okay, Keep going.

Donna Showalter [00:28:22] Definitely. And then we found Encircle, and that's a story that I can tell or not tell later, but I tried to get Michael to go to Encircle, but he wouldn't at first.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] But no, it was newish, right?

Donna Showalter [00:28:35] Yeah, because you're like, it's too churchy.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] Wasn't it newish?

Donna Showalter [00:28:37] Well, it was very new.

Michael Showalter [00:28:38] So at the time, I was the GSA president of our school, and it was the second year.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] That's Gay Straight Alliance.

Michael Showalter [00:28:44] Yes, exactly. Gay Straight alliance at our school. And this was the second year that the club existed. The first year, I think there were, like, 10, 15 members. The second year, we were the second largest club in the school compared to the Cookie Club.

Donna Showalter [00:28:55] Over a hundred. Over 150, I think.

Michael Showalter [00:28:58] Yeah. There were a lot.

Donna Showalter [00:28:59] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] In temp view.

Michael Showalter [00:29:00] Yeah, in temp view.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] That's amazing.

Donna Showalter [00:29:02] Not all lgbt, but.

Michael Showalter [00:29:04] No, the majority of them weren't lgbt.

Donna Showalter [00:29:05] A lot of allies.

Michael Showalter [00:29:06] Yeah, exactly.

Donna Showalter [00:29:07] A lot of allies.

Michael Showalter [00:29:08] And in contrast to that, another, like, club in the school was. I don't remember, but it was like a church club.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Right.

Michael Showalter [00:29:17] It's. It was interesting seeing the contrast. And there were several people that were in the church club and the gsa, Right. Because they loved.

John Dehlin [00:29:23] So a lot of Mormon kids rallied around you and.

Michael Showalter [00:29:26] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Lgbt.

Michael Showalter [00:29:28] Exactly. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. I had. I had people. I definitely had people.

Donna Showalter [00:29:32] But when we first found Encircle, he was in the stage of. He'd lost most of his, like, orthodox friends and had a few friends, some at Tinfu, some not, but I got the sense that he felt really alone and isolated at school. And then another kid. I'm glad another kid at school came out to him, and he's the one who said, let's go to Encircle. And Michael's like, all right. So they came to Encircle. I was already at Encircle, volunteering. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Details don't matter.

Donna Showalter [00:30:06] This is my perception.

Michael Showalter [00:30:08] Before Encircle was even, like, open, open. We, like, as a gsa, you, me, other, several people, we went and, like, cleaned up the abandoned house. And then from then, we were involved. To what extent varied, but from the beginning, and I. Yeah, he came.

Donna Showalter [00:30:27] He. He'd gone to a friendship circle, which is like a support group of. Of other LGBT teens. And this room was full of kids. There's like, 30 of them. I remember walking in the door and going from thinking, I am the only mom in Utah who has a g. The only Mormon mom in Utah who has a gay kid. And that brought a lot of isolation and other feelings and stuff, but to walk into this house that's full of life and activity and there's cookies being made and people are sitting at the. So much love, so much acceptance. It didn't matter what you look like, how you're presenting. Everyone was loved and accepted and welcomed, and they knew that you are safe here. You will always be safe here. I walked in the door and just stood in the doorway, and I was like, oh, I had no idea. And I just stood there and cried. I just cried in the doorway. I'm like, I didn't get into the house all the way. I was in the doorway and I'm like, oh, my gosh.

Michael Showalter [00:31:21] Like.

Donna Showalter [00:31:22] And what I recognized at the time as the spirit, it was so strong, the feeling of love in that home. I've never felt. Never felt anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Even the temple.

Donna Showalter [00:31:34] Even the. Even the temple. Anywhere. Nowhere. He came down the stairs from the friendship circle, and he's. He's laughing and joking with. With new kids that I've never seen before, never met, and. And they. They seem so happy and sweet and. And there was such a sense of relief for me that he's found a place where. Where he belongs. Like, he felt like he didn't belong at school. He felt like he didn't belong at home or church, but here he feels like he belongs. And there are other people who recognize his goodness and want to be around him. And. And I just, like, this huge sigh of relief. And I feel like that at that point, those three things, going to a competent therapist, and it only took one hour for me to, like, totally change the way I thought about things. The family acceptance project and encircle those three things. Honestly, I credit with saving his life. It changed the way I functioned in life, and it changed the amount of acceptance and love. I feel like that's what saved him. There were no attempts after that. Like, things got better.

Michael Showalter [00:32:38] And I fully believed that no one knew what I was going through. I'm the only one that's ever experienced this. This life is so hard. Like, I 110 believe that because I didn't. I literally knew zero gay people. Zero. I like, when I came out, it was all new territory.

Donna Showalter [00:32:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] So get educated, consult experts, find community and support.

Donna Showalter [00:33:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] How about your religious views? Because there's this cognitive dissonance that builds as you've got this orthodox Mormon mindset where the church says it's a sin to be gay in the sense of like living it used to just living an authentic gay life.

Donna Showalter [00:33:20] You could live an abstinent life, but if you're gay, it's a sin. You know, that's changed over time.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] But even now, the church is against gay people actually being gay. They can have the thoughts or the feelings, but they can't act on it, which basically means that I know you are. So, so for you, how do you, how do you deal with that cognitive dissonance? And what did you do with your religious beliefs? And we'll get to your full story later.

Donna Showalter [00:33:43] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] But in terms of coming to support Michael and accept and love and embrace him, what did you have to do to your Mormon beliefs?

Donna Showalter [00:33:51] First of all, there was never a moment, there was never a millisecond where I, I entertained the idea of Michael not being part of my life, you know what I mean? Or part of our family or whatever. So I had to wrap my beliefs and everything else around that because that was never going to change. So I was talking with Steve Young one day at Encircle and he's like, you know, a lot of people ask me how I hold on to my religion and do work in the LGBT community at the same time. And he used this visual. He's like, I hold on to my LGBT loved ones and I hold onto my faith at the same time. Like, I don't have to choose. I can have both. He said, now the water in between is really muddy, but that will work itself out over time, whatever. And so that's like, that visual helped me. And I'm like, yes, I'm going to hold onto my faith. Of course I am like, that's. It's my faith. It's true, it's right, it's real, it's life, it's afterlife, it's everything. And then there's my kid, who I will never let go of, ever. And I knew even then, if it came right down to it, and I had to choose if, if someone or something made me choose, it's a no brainer. Of course I'm going to choose Michael. Of course. But at the time I was like, I got this. We, we got this, you know, and I remember and I, my language was different back then too, but I do remember saying things like, you know, and please forgive me for my ignorance, but I'm going to be really real and say I said to a few people, I recognize that I probably won't be with Michael in the eternities and, and if that's the reality, then I'm going to spend every moment I can with him in this life because I. If. Because when he dies or I die, I'll never see him again. My views on that have changed drastically, too. But that's where I was at the time. And I made sure people knew, like, when I finally could speak the words, I have a gay son, I made sure they also knew that my faith hasn't changed. Like, I am all in. Like, this is the true church and nothing, nothing can sway me from that. So that's where I was.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] So for at least a while, you were able to maintain Mormon beliefs and your support of yourself?

Donna Showalter [00:36:17] Absolutely. Yeah.

Michael Showalter [00:36:18] And even when you were extremely LDS and Dad was extremely lds, and when I was out, Katie's atheist, my sister, brothers Buddhist, other brothers Hindu, we could all sit down at a table together and love each other. I mean, yeah, there would be little arguments that were stupid, but then we would keep eating, you know, just eating. Little family arguments.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] Everyone keep eating.

Michael Showalter [00:36:41] Exactly. Push it under the rug. We're good at that.

Donna Showalter [00:36:46] No, well, I think we were good at discussing things, but there were times when it got a little tense, you know, like, we don't know where to go from here, so let's talk about Disneyland.

Michael Showalter [00:36:54] Yeah, exactly. You know, clashing beliefs. But then you look past the beliefs and realize we love each other.

Donna Showalter [00:37:00] Yeah, we're people. I mean, I'm a human being and you're a human being, and. And I have deep value, and so do you. So whatever our beliefs and, and, you know, lifestyles are, whatever, that's not as important as you being a valuable human being and me being a valuable human being. And we can look beyond all the other stuff, and that's what's most obvious and clear, and we just go from there.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] So really is from a believing standpoint, and Christ should be a great model for this. You just choose love. Choose to love your kid always.

Donna Showalter [00:37:31] Oh, always.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] And maybe even say, God will work out the theology, God will work out the judgment, the afterlife. My job as a parent right now, as a believing Mormon parent, is just to love and embrace my kid. What about there's like, law of chastity stuff? You already addressed this. But, like, what if there are parents that'll say, well, if he's living a lot of chastity, I don't want to condone his behavior, so then I have to put up boundaries, or I, I don't want to meet his boyfriend, or I'll be condoning sexual behavior or, you know, there's that mindset of like, how do I show love without condoning behavior that I truly view as sinful.

Donna Showalter [00:38:10] I don't know how we dealt with that, to be honest. I mean, to his face and in public and whatever. I was like, I accept and love my son, period. Behind closed doors. I was really, really worried, you know, because of, you know, promiscuity and AIDS and, you know, all the horrible thoughts that I had. Those were still there. They were very real. They just weren't a topic of conversation around Michael, you know, because we want that to yourself. We kept it to ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Fears and worries. You keep yourself.

Donna Showalter [00:38:46] Oh, yeah, yeah. They were there.

Michael Showalter [00:38:48] Regardless if you. It gets to a point where regardless if you condone behavior or agree, you don't really have a say. They're gonna do it anyways.

John Dehlin [00:38:55] It's called being an adult.

Michael Showalter [00:38:56] Yes, exactly. You can't control.

Donna Showalter [00:38:59] Yeah, well, and agency. And with our oldest, you know, when we were tender young parents, I would have given anything to control her agency, anything. Like, I would if it was legal. And nobody would, like, go, what have you done? I would totally change her in the basement.

Michael Showalter [00:39:16] Who's this?

Donna Showalter [00:39:17] Literally, my daughter Katie. Like, yeah, metaphor, metaphor. But like, I was all about controlling agency, you know, and then giving up, giving back a little bit as you make well and right choices.

Michael Showalter [00:39:28] And it came from a place of love. Because you wanted to control her. Because the way that you're wanting control her is the way that you found peace.

Donna Showalter [00:39:36] Yeah. And I wanted her to be happy and I wanted to be with her in the eternities.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] So I remember a lesson by Brent Topp. I took a class by Brent Topp at byu and it was about families or whatever. And he actually said that if he knew his daughter was going to go have premarital sex, he would feel justified in locking her in a room.

Donna Showalter [00:39:53] I'm glad I'm okay. I'm glad I'm not abnormal.

Michael Showalter [00:39:56] Well, chained to the basement is a little similar.

Donna Showalter [00:40:00] Grounded forever. You're grounded until you're 30.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] Yeah, but. But ultimately, if parents, if believing Mormon parents are seeking guidance on how they would deal with their gay child or lesbian child or queer child or whatever. Just think about it. If they were not, you know, if they were straight but not Mormon, would you welcome their boyfriend or girlfriend if they were straight, would you, you know, if they got married outside the temple, would you still support them having a boyfriend or girlfriend or a spouse?

Donna Showalter [00:40:28] I can say one thing.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] It shouldn't be any different if they're gay. Right. It's still.

Donna Showalter [00:40:32] No, no, it shouldn't be.

Michael Showalter [00:40:33] But unfortunately it is.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] But, I mean, but it really shouldn't be. I'm just trying to use appeal to logic that if, whether they're gay or straight, if they're choosing a different life beyond Mormonism, girlfriends, boyfriends, ultimate marriage, if you're going to support it if they're heterosexual, why should that be any different in your mind? It's still sin either way. So support it. Just support it. Love them, Love them. And love will always win, right? Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:41:00] And we had conversations, Steve and I, where we would go in the bathroom, turn on the water in the tub and the sink and the fan, and we would whisper extra quietly to ourselves, like, very quietly, Listen, you and I both know marriage is between a man and woman. Neither one of us is for marriage equality. Like, duh. But we cannot speak those words outside of this bathroom. You know what I mean?

Michael Showalter [00:41:24] Like, I'm assuming that's when I was out.

Donna Showalter [00:41:26] Yeah, yeah.

Michael Showalter [00:41:27] Because I remember we went to, like, a family thing, and y' all were talking about how wrong it was and how far the country has gone, because we're even thinking about it.

Donna Showalter [00:41:35] Domo was. Was struck down. And I was like, oh, gosh, this is the end of our civilization as we know it. We're going to get invaded by either China or Russia within the next five years, and we'll be enslaved, and then there will be genocide and. I mean, I have dark thoughts.

Michael Showalter [00:41:50] Welcome to my mom thoughts.

Michael's Path Toward Healing and Wellness

John Dehlin [00:41:52] So really quick, Michael, as we're kind of wrapping up the story, the third leg, I think of sort of healthily coping with this issue is your own physical and mental health and social health and spiritual health. How did you get healthy and well? And what tips would you give lgbt, Mormon and ex Mormon youth for sort of some key pillars for your own rebound and thriving.

Michael Showalter [00:42:21] You know, everyone always says it gets better. I wouldn't say it gets better. I think life changes. You're gonna have ups and downs regardless of what you believe, who you are, what color your skin is. And as long as you're not hurting yourself, anyone else, and you're having a good time and you're being safe, go for it. Like, your actions, if done right, should not hurt. I don't know how to word this.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] Don't hurt yourself or others.

Michael Showalter [00:42:48] Yeah, exactly. And if someone else.

John Dehlin [00:42:51] Be smart.

Michael Showalter [00:42:51] Yeah, exactly. And I think most religions are founded in love, and it just gets skewed somewhere along the way. I just. I. Time, Honestly.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] Time, time. Give it time.

Michael Showalter [00:43:05] And that's stupid. Cliche. But time changes you, and experiences change you and being able to have those experiences. And, like, if I. If that night I hadn't gone to the emergency room, if I killed myself, like, I wouldn't be here talking about this, and I wouldn't have a better day, and I wouldn't have the cute apartment I have right now. Like, and just because I have a nice apartment and I have lovely friends or anything like, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to have those dark times. Those dark times are gonna come and go, but you gotta realize they're gonna come and go.

Donna Showalter [00:43:39] What would you say to someone who's LGBT, who doesn't have family support?

Michael Showalter [00:43:47] The. The thing is, you get to choose your family. And the gay community is open. Like, I have had the blessing that since leaving the church, one community, I have been welcomed into another community that's automatically accepting and loving. Like. Oh, of course, like community. Yeah. I mean, it has its ups and downs depending on, like, the people, the groups, blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] It's a very, like, LGBT Mormon youth find, quote, the gay community. I mean, it's not just one community, but, like, what would be some ways that they start finding friends and finding a community?

Michael Showalter [00:44:26] The Internet in circle. I've met a lot of people, like, just through Instagram. Honestly, just being yourself, people will come to you. And even though it probably isn't going to seem like that for a second because you've been hiding yourself for so long because you've been told it's wrong, when you're yourself, people are going to love you. And it may take time, but people will love you and appreciate you.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] So are there, like, meetup groups? Are there Facebook groups? Are there. Are these just informal relationships that you forge over time?

Michael Showalter [00:44:57] I'm. I'm personally not one for, like, purely gay meeting groups or anything, but, like, there are several opportunities where that's presented to you, like an encircle. There are different activities. You can go to 18 plus club. And just because you go to a club or a bar doesn't mean you have to drink or anything like that. It's a social atmosphere.

Donna Showalter [00:45:17] There are also a lot of LGBT support type.

Michael Showalter [00:45:20] Yeah, you would know more than I do.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Affirmation is one.

Donna Showalter [00:45:23] There's affirmation, there's North Star, if you're into that. There's. There's online groups, there's. I'll walk with you.

Michael Showalter [00:45:32] You just gotta look.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:45:33] Yeah.

Michael Showalter [00:45:34] You're not gonna find it if you don't look.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] Make some friends. I'm sure you meet people through Tinder or other apps and then they help introduce you to friends and community that way.

Michael Showalter [00:45:43] Exactly. I, I, I've been like going out. Like I, I would sneak into clubs at 16 like 18 plus clubs.

Donna Showalter [00:45:50] I do not condone.

Michael Showalter [00:45:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] What are some of the best clubs out right now? That's, you know.

Michael Showalter [00:45:54] Oh, well that's a good question.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] Are there any good?

Michael Showalter [00:45:59] Honestly, the gay clubs come and go in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] Okay.

Michael Showalter [00:46:01] Really depends.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] Is there, are there any good ones you kind of say are, are good right now?

Michael Showalter [00:46:06] Well, if you're over 21, Sun Trap Liberty park on Sundays is a really liberal place, honestly. And just very loving. I don't know. I'm not, no.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] If there, I'm just, if there's one that comes to mind, that's great.

Michael Showalter [00:46:19] I can't think of one specifically. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] Any other tips to getting well, how are you doing now? What, what, what are the main components of your life right now? What things are bringing you joy and meaning and fulfillment? How are things going?

Michael Showalter [00:46:33] I'm, I'm really happy and it's a mindset. It's you, you can look at life in a negative way or in a positive light. There's not really much else that you can do but change the way you look at something. You're not going to be able to control the people around you. You're not going to be able to control the way the sun sets. All you can do is how you look at the sunset and being able to look at my life like an outside perspective and appreciate how good I've got it. Like growing up in Provo, Utah, the most I had to worry about about being gay is passive girls looks, passive aggressive looks and most someone yelling something rude at me. There are places in the world you can't breathe when you're gay. Like you are killed, literally killed for being who you are. And you can't walk the street. I recently went to Italy and I wasn't the person I was with did not feel comfortable holding my hand because they were afraid. And the fact that I can hold someone's hand and yeah, I still may get passive aggressive looks, I can hold that person's hand and love them and again just, just perspective the way you look at things. I have so many love, loved ones in my life, people that love me and people aren't going to tell you every second of every single day that they love you and but they're there. Like even if it's 10 years ago. I've had people message me saying like Little things that I did that I didn't even think about, but I impacted their life. You can do the same thing by impacting other people's lives. It's just, you got to realize all you have is the way you look at things.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] So I'm hearing you say, give it time. Find the family members and friends that love you and cling to them.

Michael Showalter [00:48:20] Yeah. And if you don't have those family members, your friends will become your family and you have a place.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] There's family of blood and family of choice. And sometimes those overlap and sometimes they don't. But find whatever family you can that will embrace and celebrate you. You make friends, make. Be authentic, make community. Did you see a therapist? Did you. Did you do therapy at all? Like, just in terms of depression and anxiety? You're on Zoloft, so see a psychiatrist if you need support that way. Medication.

Michael Showalter [00:48:49] Yeah. I went to a therapist for, I think, like, two months. I did not like her at all.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] Okay.

Michael Showalter [00:48:53] And then I went to another therapist, Lisa. She. She was really kind, really great. But I haven't. I only went once, and I've only. I haven't seen a therapist since.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] Okay. So talk therapy hasn't been super useful, but the Zoloft has.

Michael Showalter [00:49:04] Yeah, the Zoloft. I haven't, like, been off it in, like, four years. I was actually talking to a friend previously about this. I'm like, I wonder what life would be like without it. I wonder if I need it right now. But life is waves.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] But get medical support. If. If.

Michael Showalter [00:49:20] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] If you think it might be useful, you can endorse psychiatric help in your situation.

Michael Showalter [00:49:25] Healthy psychiatric health. You know, I would highly recommend not going to a religious therapist.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] Right?

Michael Showalter [00:49:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] Avoid expectations. A non LGBT affirming therapist.

Michael Showalter [00:49:36] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] Okay. Have hope, be patient. And then you're saying, have practice. Gratitude, I hear you say. And then practice developing a resilient mindset that is flexible and is willing to reframe things.

Michael Showalter [00:49:50] Yeah. Be open to change. So nothing is. Nothing ever happens the way you think it will happen or want it to happen? Rarely.

Finding Joy and Looking Toward the Future

John Dehlin [00:49:57] So what gets you excited about life now? What are the things that are really exciting for you? What are the things you're looking forward to?

Michael Showalter [00:50:02] Opportunity. And that life can change. And that I can literally do whatever I want with my life. I can go wherever I want. I can see whoever I want. I just. I have the ability to do that. And the option just.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Do you have plans? Do you have hopes, dreams? Right now?

Michael Showalter [00:50:22] Trying to figure out what those are. Okay. You know, like, do you Work? Yeah, I work at Target Optical.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] Okay, that's great. Yeah.

Michael Showalter [00:50:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Have you done school? Are you.

Michael Showalter [00:50:31] Yeah, I went to school for a year. That's. I figured if I want to go to school and I want to, like, if anything, I'd be a therapist. Honestly, that's what I've thought about. Or somewhere in the psychology field. If I want to do that, that option is there later down the line. But right now I'm. I'm young. I can.

Donna Showalter [00:50:45] He's done a lot of traveling.

Michael Showalter [00:50:47] Yeah. I've. I've decided to make traveling a priority, and that's been really, really amazing and really helped me appreciate the world around me. Like, I went to STONEWALL for the 50th. 50th anniversary.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] New York.

Michael Showalter [00:51:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Oh, cool.

Michael Showalter [00:51:01] Yeah, it was. It was really cool. And just being able to see that 50 years ago, the police were breaking up. Just a gay gathering. And now the police are protecting the streets while we have a gay gathering.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] Love it.

Michael Showalter [00:51:13] It was pretty cool. It was. It's pretty amazing.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] And it sounds like you feel okay living in Provo. Provo. Orem. Right.

Michael Showalter [00:51:20] I actually live in Salt Lake now.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] Oh, is that. So is that a big thing? Was moving from Utah county to Salt Lake. What was that like for you?

Michael Showalter [00:51:26] Oh, massively different.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] Why is that better?

Michael Showalter [00:51:29] Utah county is stuck in this little mindset in this little bubble, and you will see hardly any diversity.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] Okay.

Michael Showalter [00:51:34] And it's just expectations in Utah county that I. I personally don't like. Some people love it, and it's a beautiful place. I just. I like being able to walk down the street and not worry about what people are thinking about me, which I feel like Utah county does a lot of the time, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] So for you, moving to Salt Lake county was an important part of healing and growth.

Michael Showalter [00:51:58] Yeah. And I've also lived in Portland, and

John Dehlin [00:52:00] getting out of Utah can be nice.

Michael Showalter [00:52:02] Oh, yeah? Yeah. Seeing. Seeing other perspectives, other worlds. And again, like in Italy and London, like, seeing the contrast of just the way you're treated, the way people see you. It's. The world is in a little box just because you can see it. There's so much out there. So much. The fact that I even thought for a moment of ending that because I didn't want to see outside of what I saw at the moment. It's hard to think about. Hard to think about that. I mean, I have no. I have no idea what happens when I die. And thinking about giving up all the experience I've had and all the experiences that are to come make me really sad. But I'm really glad I had those opportunities and still have them.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] Yeah. Knowing that not all religious or Mormon parents can get to the place that your mom has gotten, what can you possibly express to your mom knowing how supportive she's ended up being?

Michael Showalter [00:53:02] I don't. I don't think I can express it. Like, it's not. I can't put my love for my mom to where it's like, my mom is the most important person my life because she has always, always loved me, always been there. She, like, no negative intentions. Thoughts. Well, thoughts. Everyone has negative thoughts. But you just always have love.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] And what does that meant to you?

Michael Showalter [00:53:32] It's been the world so, so much. I. The fact that I was suicidal when I had an accepting family, I don't even want to think about if my family hadn't accepted me. When I came out to my sister, she came out to me as a bi, which I'm like, why did you not tell me that? How rude. And my brother said he would be disappointed in me if I married a woman. And my other brother, he had. When I came out to my other brother, he was, like, saying all sorts of, like, homophobic things. And then I, like, eventually, like, you

Donna Showalter [00:54:04] know what, Nathan, I'm gay.

Michael Showalter [00:54:06] He, like, paused for a moment, looked up. At least you're not lactose intolerant.

Donna Showalter [00:54:14] And. And he was instantly on board.

Michael Showalter [00:54:17] Yeah, instantly, like, super affirming. Yeah, I've been very meaning.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] It doesn't matter to him.

Michael Showalter [00:54:22] Oh, yeah, no, not at all. Not at all. And I think that was his way of saying, oh, I don't care.

Donna and Michael Reflect on Their Relationship Today

John Dehlin [00:54:28] And, Donna, what's it like to see your. Your beautiful son now in front of you, feeling healthy and optimistic?

Michael Showalter [00:54:36] What.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] What can you say to him?

Donna Showalter [00:54:43] My life feels complete when my. When my kids are happy. You know that saying, I'm only as happy as my saddest kid. You know, the fact that he's living a happy life. I don't know. I don't worry about him. I spent a couple years doing nothing but worrying about him, and I just. He's happy. He's happy. And I'm happy because he's happy.

Michael Showalter [00:55:16] And when I came out at, like, 13 and to 16, did you ever think that you'd get to the point where you wouldn't have to worry about me or that I would be happy?

Donna Showalter [00:55:26] No. There's no question that you couldn't be happy. I'm so, so glad that I was wrong. But, yeah, it's. It's just really, really Good. I feel like my relationship with Michael has gotten even better. Stronger, deeper. I don't know. I wonder if I kind of took my kids for granted, you know, they're here, I've got them. We're doing our thing. We do the day to day stuff, but I don't do that anymore. There's something so special and incredible there. There's just not words. There's not words to describe this human being. He's just, gosh. And the fact that he's mine, it blows my mind. It blows my mind. Like, I get to sit next to this person. Holy cow.

Michael Showalter [00:56:20] I'm pretty great.

Donna Showalter [00:56:23] Yeah. I love him.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] Are you proud of him for what he's been through?

Donna Showalter [00:56:27] Very, very proud of him. Very proud of him. Talk about him all the time. All the time. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] Well, what a beautiful and inspiring story. Lots of really beautiful comments. You guys will need to go visit the comments later on Facebook live on the Mormon Stories podcast Facebook page. Emma Lynn. I'll just read a couple. Emmaline writes, wonderful smile. I'm sure she means to both.

Donna Showalter [00:56:55] No, she means Michael.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] She might also mean Michael. She says, what a cute boy. Jennifer writes, thank you for sharing your story, Donna. And Michael. Trent writes, I think travel opens people up and helps them shed biases better than anything else. Jay writes, I'm not getting anything done at work today. Thank you for doing this interview and being open and honest and showing how to love. Jenna writes, I'm shaking. This is such a powerful interview. Laura Lee writes, love is the answer.

Donna Showalter [00:57:29] Shout out to Laura Lee. Love that woman. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] Yeah. Colleen writes, you may not have ever been student president, but look at how you took on leadership in areas really needed. Probably talking about the gsa. I guess if you had to choose between being president of the GSA and the student body.

Michael Showalter [00:57:49] Definitely gsa.

John Dehlin [00:57:51] Anyway, just so many people are expressing their love. I believe interviews like this change lives and even save lives. And so on behalf of my. Oh. Leandro writes, the love of a mother needs no instructions. Great job, ma'. Am.

Donna Showalter [00:58:05] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:58:07] Robin says, amazing people. Donna, I look up to you. Weston writes, makes me think of my mom. She has been pretty supportive of my decision to leave the church. And this transcends the LGBT stuff. Just, there's so many parents that have a hard time loving their children if they leave the church, or spouses or grandparents or aunts and uncles or cousins. Like there are other issues, even political differences that can divide us. I think the message of this interview transcends the LGBT issue, and it just Goes to love. Love friends, love family. Show support.

Michael Showalter [00:58:40] Love has its own boundaries.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] Love has no boundaries. I love it. So, Donna and Michael Showalter, thank you so much for being willing to tell your story.

Donna Showalter [00:58:49] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] Yeah, it means a lot. Any final words?

Michael Showalter [00:58:58] I don't know. Life changes. Life changes.

Donna Showalter [00:59:02] Is that a good thing or bad thing?

Michael Showalter [00:59:04] Neither.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] It just is.

Donna Showalter [00:59:06] It just is.

Michael Showalter [00:59:07] The world's gonna keep spinning.

Donna Showalter [00:59:10] You just need to make sure you're on it.

Michael Showalter [00:59:12] Yeah, exactly. Life's gonna change. You never know what's gonna happen till it happens.

John Dehlin [00:59:17] Right.

Michael Showalter [00:59:18] Might as well be here to experience it.

John Dehlin [00:59:21] I love it. Donna, any final words?

Closing Thoughts and Advice for Families

Donna Showalter [00:59:27] I. I think we need to give parents a lot more credit than we do. I think sometimes parents do things that on the outside, don't seem very loving. You know, kicking a kid out if they're lgbt, that doesn't seem very loving. But I think it comes from a place of fear, deep fear. And that fear comes, I think, from love. So I think, although sometimes actions don't. They don't speak love. I think it comes from a place of love. So it's just learning to make our actions coincide with our feelings and learn

John Dehlin [01:00:09] to express love in a way that is perceived as loving by the others who we're trying to love.

Donna Showalter [01:00:14] Yes. Make your love tangible. Don't just talk about love and throw the word around like, you do love. You don't just feel love, you know? That's why I started getting involved within circle, because Michael was struggling, and I thought, I can't just tell him I love him. That's not enough. Like, because he can believe me or not, you know, I know I love him, but does he know? Does he really know? And I'm like, what can I do to show him that I love him? You know? And so I started volunteering at Encircle as a tangible way, so that when he drove up with his friends and he saw me out working in the yard, I was, I'm here. I'm here, you know? And I was there so that I could love him.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] And so for those who want to check out Encircle, either in Provo, Salt Lake, and I think they're doing something in St. George. Is that right?

Donna Showalter [01:01:04] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] We're opening St. George. What's the website?

Donna Showalter [01:01:06] Encircletogether.org.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] okay.

Donna Showalter [01:01:09] So lots of ways to get involved.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] Larsen, who's amazing.

Donna Showalter [01:01:12] Oh, Stephanie.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] Jacob Dunford. He just tuned in.

Donna Showalter [01:01:14] I love Jacob so much.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] All the amazing people at Encircle, you guys, have helped change Utah, Change lives, save lives. And we'll talk about that. So thank you again, Michael and Donna, for your story. Michael, we're going to let you go to work. And listeners, don't go away. We are going to come back just in a few minutes on Facebook Live and on Mormon Stories for kind of a we'll just say a part three because this interview ended up being two hours. We'll do a part three where we learn about how orthodox believing, true believing, East Bench Provo Relief Society can end up leaving the church. And it's its own epic story. Donna's story is its own epic story. And so we're really excited to come back and hear that part of the story. So don't go away. Come back soon. Thanks, you guys. Oh, were you gonna say something?

Michael Showalter [01:02:06] No. Bye bye now.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] I love it. All right, guys, we'll see you in a second. Check, check back for the next episode. Thanks again for joining us today on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org

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