Introducing Hans and Birgitta Mattsson

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today is July 18, 2024, and we are about to release either the final or the penultimate episode in our epic second anointing series on Mormon Stories podcast, where we have been covering the Mormon Church's most sacred, most secret and most important ordinance that that almost all Mormons don't know about. Which is the second anointing.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] This will be, I believe, the fourth or the fifth episode so far. We had Brian Buchanan on to talk about the history of the second anointing. This is of course, where a Mormon apostle basically chooses a couple to go into the temple and basically have what's called their calling and election made sure. Which means that the apostle washes the feet of the husband and wife, as I understand it, and then the wife takes the husband into a secret special room in the temple, washes his feet, and then gives the husband a blessing, putting her hands on his head. And the purpose of this is to let the couple know that unless they murder someone, they will be exalted in heaven, which means they will have their own planets and rule over those planets as gods.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] That's the Mormon plan of salvation. That's what the second anointing is. It's been given to thousands or tens of thousands of Mormons over the past 150 years. So we had Brian Buchanan talk about that. We had Darren Klein come in and talk about finding out about his grandparents receiving of the second anointing under the hands of Spencer W. Kimball. Then we re aired for the first time on YouTube, Tom Phillips accounting of his basically time in the church in the uk, serving ultimately as a stake president twice and then receiving a second anointing under the hands of M. Russell Ballard, becoming friends with Jeffrey R.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Holland and then losing his faith and then having his family completely abandoned him. And by the way, his current son, Alan Phillips is a current general authority for the Mormon Church in the uk. Anyway, we released Tom Phillips episode for the first time on YouTube. Many of you have really appreciated that this is going to be the fourth episode in the series, which I'll talk about in a minute. And then finally, we hope to have Tom Phillips back one last time. Okay, really quickly, let me just give you the introduction to this episode. So back in around 2010, November 28, 2010, there was a problem, a crisis in Sweden for the Mormon Church.

The Swedish Rescue and Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Basically a bunch of Mormon stories Podcast followers in Sweden started expressing concerns about the church, misleading them and lying to them about the truth claims and the history and and so, long story short, the Mormon Church arranged to send Marlon K. Jensen, who was the church historian at the time and a general authority, and Richard Turley, who is his assistant to Sweden, to engage in what we now call the Swedish Rescue, which was to hold this special secret, private fireside to answer and hopefully resolve the concerns of this mass defection of Swedes who were leaving the Mormon Church. So that happened. And it just so happened that one of the people participating in that event was a man by the name, a Swedish man by the name of Hans Matson, along with his wife Birgitta.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Hans had been called as an area authority from Sweden in, I believe, 2000, and he served until 2005 and then in the five years after that, lost his faith after serving as an area authority from Sweden and was a part of this group. Anyway, in July 22, 2013, we interviewed Hans Mattsson, episodes 430 to 434, where he talked about being a former area authority of the church and then losing his faith.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] That episode has, I don't believe, has ever been released on YouTube. So if that's the case, I may Release that on YouTube soon so you can hear kind of that whole deal. It's a really, really important episode. At the time, it was the highest ranking Mormon church leader that we had ever had on Mormon Stories, podcast and area authority. So it's an amazing episode that was also that was released along with an article by Lori Goodstein of the New York Times, where basically the church was called out for lying and deceiving about its history for 150 years. And all of that was part of other things that my friend Travis Stratford and I and others, Greg Prince, did to, to sort of nudge the church into creating and releasing the Gospel topics essays which were released 2013, late fall 2013ish.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Anyway, so we released in 2013 that interview with Hans Mattsson. And then in 2018, Travis and I returned to Sweden and we brought a bunch of Swedes together, ex Mormon Swedes who had participated in the Swedish Rescue, to have sort of a meeting where they reflected on their memories of the Swedish Rescue because there ended up being a mass apostasy in Sweden because, spoiler alert, Marlon Jensen and Richard Turley were not able to resolve the questions of the Swedes.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] And so there was a mass apostasy in Sweden and that was called the failed Swedish rescue. Anyway, in 2018, September, we released that sort of celebration of the Swedish Rescue and then we also released the actual audio of of that meeting between Turley and Jensen and the Swedes again, September 25, 2018. So that's all happened.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] And then we did an interview with Hans and Brigitte Mattsson where they talked more about their faith crisis. This time we got that on video. And interestingly, as Hans was releasing a book that he had written called Truth Seeking, he also and Brigitte talked about their receiving of the second Anointing. So what we're going to be releasing now is just the segment of Hans and Brigitte talking about their second anointing, just to complete our series of all the episodes so far of Mormon Stories where people talked about their second anointing. This one's short. It's like 30 minutes.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] But you know, for those who are thorough and mostly I'm talking about all of this. For those who are new to Mormon Stories podcast, I'm trying to feature some of our class episodes, many, many of which were audio only because even though they're audio only and in the past, some of them are groundbreaking. So that's what I'm releasing today, is Hansa, Brigitte Mattsson talking about their receiving of the second anointing as well, and then crossing fingers. I've been in touch with Tom Phillips. He's expressed an openness to doing sort of a Where is he now? Final interview to close out this series, but he's not sure if he's able to do that.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] So we're going to wait and see whether that's something he's able to do. Anyway, that's. And you can buy Hans book as well. We recommend it. It's a really good book. So that is. So that is this episode. Hope you enjoy it.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] And you know, I think we're going to do a series coming up on the Swedish Rescue. I think that's worth doing. And on Hans Batson. And yeah, we're going to do more cool things on Mormon Stories. Give us your feedback. Let us know if you like this series on the second Anointing. Stay in touch and hope you enjoy it and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Enjoy this episode.

Receiving the Second Anointing

John Dehlin [00:08:08] Let's go ahead and talk about whatever you're comfortable sharing about the second Anointing. My sense is that our listeners would love as much detail as you're comfortable providing, even if it's repetitive to what Tom Phillips shared. For those who have never listened, we did an interview with Tom Phillips, who is a British gentleman who served, I think, as stake president, twice worked with the area and then eventually received this ordinance called the second Anointing. Please go back and listen to that. It's definitely in our top three most popular episodes of all time. But don't feel like you need to worry about repetition. What can you tell us about, number one, how you even maybe were selected?

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Because we remember from the Tom Phillips interview one of the, you know, for those who don't know, the second anointing is this special secret ordinance that Mormons can receive if they're kind of reaching the upper echelons of leadership or financial contribution to the church, frankly. And it's this ordinance where you go to the temple and you're basically, as I understand it, promised that you've arrived at the celestial kingdom and you're sort of. You're calling an election is made sure. Now, you know, other people may see technical difficulties, but generally it's this idea of being sealed up to the celestial kingdom and eventually sort of a promise of you arriving at the state of godhood.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] And it's a secret ceremony, but it's viewed as sacred and we're encouraged never to talk about it. And it's been held as secret. So that's just a little bit of background. But one of the things Tom Phillips told us in that interview was that as he was, you know, either receiving or had experienced and received his second anointing, along with his wife, he was called into a meeting with the General authority where he was asked to give names of other potential candidates to receive the second anointing. So I think I remember him feeling like that was a bit odd, that it was almost like a pyramid kind of thing where you're giving more names so that other people can then know who they should consider for what should be sort of an inspired revelation that comes from God anyway.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] Do you have any insight into kind of how you may have been recommended for that position, or would you not have any insight into that?

Hans Mattsson [00:10:23] Actually, I don't really know, but I think maybe it had to do with Rasband give a recommendation for once. Just a few months before that, I asked him, I heard about something called the second Endowment or Second.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] You asked about it?

Hans Mattsson [00:10:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] How had you heard about it?

Hans Mattsson [00:10:43] Because. Well, I can. I don't remember how really, but some. You can read in some of the McConkis Mormon doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] Yeah, yeah.

Hans Mattsson [00:10:54] Or you can read that Christ was defeated the apostles, and somewhere I understood there was something, but I didn't really know about it. So I asked him, why Can I read more about it?

John Dehlin [00:11:05] And had you ever heard of anyone receiving it in life as an Area authority. Had you ever. You're three years into your calling. Had you ever known of anyone receiving it or heard of anyone receiving it?

Hans Mattsson [00:11:20] You know, I didn't know, but I

John Dehlin [00:11:22] heard

Hans Mattsson [00:11:24] in some way that my mother was in there. Was there, But I didn't know that

John Dehlin [00:11:30] maybe your mom had received it. Yeah, but you weren't sure?

Hans Mattsson [00:11:33] No.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Okay. Because you're told not to tell you,

Hans Mattsson [00:11:35] but I can put two plus two and that will be four. And that's the way I know about it. But. Or at least understood about something like that.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Had your parents served as Temple presidency or mission presidents?

Hans Mattsson [00:11:51] My dad was a district president.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:11:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] And you thought that maybe your mom had received it?

Hans Mattsson [00:11:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:11:58] Sometime.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] So you asked Rasband about it?

Hans Mattsson [00:12:01] Yeah. And he didn't. He didn't like to talk about it at all.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] What do you say?

Hans Mattsson [00:12:06] Yeah. I can't really remember, but he didn't say anything really, because he was not supposed to say it.

John Dehlin [00:12:13] Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:12:13] And afterwards, when I was there, I understood why, because I hadn't received it either.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] He had not received. No. Are you. Oh,

Hans Mattsson [00:12:25] ta da. It's not in the book.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] Wow. Okay. So he hadn't received it yet?

Hans Mattsson [00:12:32] No. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Okay. So what can you tell us about how that happened?

Hans Mattsson [00:12:37] I just know that we were called from the office of the area presidency to be in Frankfurt at the temple late Sunday afternoon, and that's all in a certain time. And we were there and we couldn't tell, and we couldn't tell anybody. No, we're not supposed to say that we should be there, but we were anyway. And there it comes up, one couple there and one couple there. And then come Elder Rasband as well. Good to see you again. And we didn't know that one. So there was, I think we can say four couples. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] So there were four couples there. Now, did you have any idea what was going to happen? Did you think, okay, I'd asked about the second anointing and now I'm going to Frankfurt. Maybe this is our big chance.

Hans Mattsson [00:13:29] I think I understood. Something to do with washing feet, to clean the feet or something.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] You thought there might be some feet washing ceremony, but you weren't sure what that might be.

Hans Mattsson [00:13:42] No, I still have my shoes on and everything when I went in there. And we were also told to have the temple clothing with us.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] But did you. Did Birgitta, did he ever turn to you and say, I think we might be getting our second anointing?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:13:56] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] And you didn't think that either?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:13:57] No, no, no, I didn't know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] Okay. Okay. Yeah. It's kind of mind blowing that by 2003, this has been going on for however long, but in the world with the Internet and everything, somehow this is kept secret from everybody, including top leaders, including Rasband. Like, the way that we're able to keep secrets in this religion is mind blowing. Right.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:14:21] And that's the way it felt kind of mysterious because you are not allowed to tell your family. We stayed at a friend's house in Frankfurt, and we couldn't say to them. They asked us, why are you here? And we couldn't tell.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] We love Frankfurt. Yeah. Germany.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:14:43] And it felt really, really strange.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Yeah.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:14:46] Yeah.

Hans Mattsson [00:14:46] Lying for the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Okay, say that again.

Hans Mattsson [00:14:49] That's when you can use the word lying for the Lord. Because what you. You're not supposed to say anything, and if you say something, you're not supposed to say it. And that's the reason why I answer. Before when I had the question, I used to say like this. If I had the second anointment, I can't tell you. I wouldn't. I can't, because that's a part of it. And if I haven't, I can't tell you because I don't know anything. But I used to.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] That's how you responded when others would ask you.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:15:26] And he also said, I can tell you that Tom Phillips is right.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. Okay. That came later.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:15:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] Okay. So what can you tell us about that day? What's it like? What happens if you want to. If you're okay talking about it, even if it's repetitive.

Hans Mattsson [00:15:42] I. We were there, and one of the apostles, he's the one who do the ceremony or their ritual. He's Elder Ballard.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] Elder Ballard was the apostle there. So there's an apostle there?

Hans Mattsson [00:15:58] Yes. And he explained for us that this is something that. From Joseph Smith's time and all the way up, but during the time of David, or McKay is more or less faded out. And he was reminded from some of the apostles that there were only two of the apostles that had a second anointment. The ten didn't have it. So they started to do it again so they can have this second anointing.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] So by the time David. Okay. Was prophet, they had done some audit and found that only two of the 12 apostles had had it.

Hans Mattsson [00:16:35] See?

John Dehlin [00:16:36] So they're like, we better get back on the program here. And they start reintroducing it.

Hans Mattsson [00:16:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] I'm guessing in the 50s or 60s.

Hans Mattsson [00:16:43] Well, that's what Elder Bala told us.

John Dehlin [00:16:45] Okay. So they start Doing it with apostles.

Hans Mattsson [00:16:49] And of course, we were dressed in the temple clothing, and we were sitting there in a room. Not special room, but I guess a ceiling room. Yeah, but not the celestial was the ceiling.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] And so there's Elder Ballard and four couples. Rasband being one of them, and you and two others and some of the temp.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:17:11] I think it was Temple president with wife also watching.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Some people imagine that temple presidents kind of have to get their second anointing because they're in charge of the temple.

Hans Mattsson [00:17:21] Yeah, but they were not there to have the second anointment. They were there to support Elibella.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] And maybe they had had it already. Possibly.

Hans Mattsson [00:17:28] Yeah. We didn't ask.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] So what is the ceremony like?

Hans Mattsson [00:17:34] He explained that. Why don't you explained? You have a better memory. And I have.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:17:44] I try to. I have something here I can read, but I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Whatever you want. Yeah.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:17:51] You can read.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Yeah, Please.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:17:52] I just need to take it up.

Hans Mattsson [00:17:54] Yeah. You know, I can tell you, though, that it's a highly, highly spiritual experience that you more or less can't handle in a way. There are two different parts of it, and in the end, you just kind of burst like a balloon full of water.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] Yeah. Had you ever met Ballard before? Elder Ballard?

Hans Mattsson [00:18:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] And did you have favorable impressions of him?

Hans Mattsson [00:18:24] No. I've been in the area authority for three years, so we met every year.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Did you have good. Did you like him working with them? Did you have good favorable impressions?

Hans Mattsson [00:18:31] No way. He didn't work that close, but. But he was teaching us. We shake hands. We had luncheon together and so on, you know, and he explained who he was. He was really. His forefather was Hyrum Smith.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Right.

Hans Mattsson [00:18:46] You use that, brother.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Yeah. He's a direct descendant of Hyrum Smith. He carries the blood of the Smith family and thus Jesus in his veins.

Hans Mattsson [00:18:54] Maybe.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] I mean, according to McConkie family lore, Joseph Smith and Hyrum were descendants of Jesus.

Hans Mattsson [00:19:00] Oh, boy.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] Yeah. So that's special.

Hans Mattsson [00:19:02] So to be in the room, that means that Jesus had some kids.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Jesus had some, of course, because he had to have been sealed to his wife in the temple and the restoration of all things. I mean, that's what. That's what we were taught at BYU. Was that all right? The McConkey family, the Smith family were descendants of Jesus and now the Matson son. And now you're. You're getting adopted in. Yeah, you're getting adopted in.

Hans Mattsson [00:19:27] All right. Pigitta.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:19:30] Yeah. Before I start reading. This is from Tom Phillips Memories of It. And we Remember, when we read it, it's the same.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Okay.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:19:43] But first.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] So you're kind of confer. You're a second and third witness.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:19:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all things be established. So, okay, so.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:19:50] But when we were in this room with Ada Ballard, he started to explain things about the second anointing. And then he washed the men's feet, and then he anointed them with oil. And this is the second anointing. And then I can read from here.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:20:17] During the first endowment, you are given certain blessings to become a king and a priest, queen and priestess to the Most High God. And these blessings are conditional on you remaining worthy of them. With the second endowment or anointment, the conditions are removed as you have already proven your faithfulness and entitlement to the blessings. Therefore, you are sealed up to the highest degree of celestial kingdom unconditionally. Any sins committed afterward may render you liable to the buffetings in the flesh, but they will not prevent you from attaining your exaltation. The only sin that is unpardonable is denying the Holy Ghost, or in some passages, the shedding of innocent blood.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:21:06] It meant I and my wife would be guaranteed a celestial glory unless we committed the unpardonable sin, which seemed to be unthinkable at that time. We had made it. The Lord, through his prophet, had informed us we were worthy of this high exaltation. I never thought it would be done in this way. I had assumed that if anyone did deserve to have their calling and election made sure the Lord would appear to them Himself. Like most members of the church, I assume all the apostles had made sure their calling and election and many of the other general authorities of the church.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:21:46] And I remember. I don't remember by myself, that the women's feet were washed, only anointed with oil. And I have another thing to read here from. I don't know if you want me to read what Elder McConkie has said about it. Yeah, yeah.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:22:11] Basically, Elder McConkie wrote that during the first endowment, you are given certain blessings to become a king and a priest, queen and priest to the Most High God. And these blessings are conditional on you remaining worthy of them. With the second endowment, the conditions are removed as you have already proven your faithfulness and entitlement to the blessings. Have I read this before? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't need. That's what I said before. So maybe.

Hans Mattsson [00:22:42] I think we have to understand. The first endowment is when we go to the temple, the first time for ourselves and the second one, then we are promised. If we keep the commandments, if we live the right life, we could be kings and priests to the most high God. I don't know who the most high God is. If there is some level behind lower,

John Dehlin [00:23:04] the lesser high God, but the second, the junior high God.

Hans Mattsson [00:23:07] Yeah. The second anointment or endowment means that you're not. You don't take away the condition. You're already there.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] That's got to feel amazing. You're basically promised exaltation.

Hans Mattsson [00:23:21] Hallelujah.

John Dehlin [00:23:21] And to become a God, no matter. You could swear, you could steal money, you could cheat on your wife or husband. As long as you didn't murder or deny the Holy Ghost, you're good. You're in. That must have felt amazing. Were you loving it?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:23:39] We didn't think about it that way then, but now we really do. It's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] Well, how did you think of it then?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:23:48] We really didn't understand it, I think because sitting there and have these things say to you. And it kind of felt strange. And also after this anointing, every couple had their own. Had to go to their own room. Second part of it. And we came in, in this room for a session in the temple and there was a water. In a bowl of water on the floor and a towel. And I was supposed to clean my husband's feet.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] He had just had them washed by an apostle.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:24:34] But now I'm as a wife.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] Now you're washing his feet too?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:24:37] Yeah. And after that I was supposed to give him a blessing. And that felt so weird.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] So you put your hands on his head?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:24:49] Yeah, I put my hands on his head and I.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] Did they tell you what to say? Who's telling you what to do?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:24:54] The. The Holy Ghost.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] So they said, go in there and give him a blessing.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:24:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it felt so strange. And washing his feet was okay, but then having this responsibility to. And I was kind of. Oh, what am I going to say? It felt strange.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] What did you say?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:25:14] I don't remember. I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] You don't remember?

Hans Mattsson [00:25:17] It was beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] What'd she say?

Hans Mattsson [00:25:18] You know, I. First of all, this is.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] She said, hans, I bless you. To help out with washing the dishes and changing the diapers. No.

Hans Mattsson [00:25:26] To buy a dishing machine. No, no. This is my love of my life. And I think about Jesus when he was there and was a Martha who cleaned his feet and dried with their hair. And I really had evangelical sentence in my mind when I see this, my beautiful wife, not because she's on the knee for me, but what she was doing so Christ like.

Hans Mattsson [00:26:01] And then she put her hand and give me a blessing because I'm used to give her blessing, the kids, blessing members and so on. So this is the first time in her life she's given a blessing and. And she gave it to me. At least give it on the head. And it was just incredible. I can't explain the love and the feelings of excitement and that's what I said. It's those kind of strong feelings that the tears comes out in the air sometime and in the eyes and you know, you just feel, I love you.

Hans Mattsson [00:26:40] I want spend the eternity with you. And there was no thought that now I can cheat on my wife or drink or smell. And you just want to live like Christ. You just want to do the right thing and honor you, honor your kids. And that's the feeling you really, really, really was motivating you to. That's what I felt at least, you know.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] And Brigitte, how did you feel at the end of that experience?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:27:11] I thought it was beautiful as Hans expressed our love between us because it really felt special. And we were alone and we shared this experience. But also it felt strange. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] I just have to say, and I don't know if I even paid attention to this in the Tom Phillips interview. Maybe I did, but I. I'm struck with this idea that the man gets his feet washed twice, but the woman never gets her feet washed.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:27:42] But I don't remember if we got our feet washed. I can't tell because.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] Well, you definitely know that he didn't wash your feet.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:27:48] No, he didn't.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] In the room?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:27:49] No.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] You would remember if Elder Ballard washed your feet, but you don't remember.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:27:54] I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] Do you remember her feet being washed?

Hans Mattsson [00:27:56] No.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Okay. So unless someone's going to correct us,

Hans Mattsson [00:28:00] I think the explanation is she is already clean because she had the babies born through her bodies. And because of that she already a higher degree of glory. And I have. So I have to wash my. Twice, not my feet.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] And so it was strange for you looking back now? I mean, number one, you can just say it was one of the greatest experiences of your life. Is that pretty much one of the most spiritual, rewarding experiences of your life? Is that how you think of it now?

Hans Mattsson [00:28:37] That's part of it, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] So you still hold that as sacred?

Hans Mattsson [00:28:41] Well, I've written down what I call my spiritual experiences. And it's only three pages long. And it's not the story, but just the quotes kind of. And paragraphs and that's one of them. Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] Okay, so.

Hans Mattsson [00:29:01] Because the feeling I had.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] Yeah.

Hans Mattsson [00:29:04] I don't. Today during my faith crisis, you go through. What is all this spiritual experience you had like this? Is that through the church? You got it. Or is it from the heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, that's showing you his love? So you have to decide, because I will never deny that I have those feelings. I have those burning in my bosom and the love I felt for it. But I can also see it now when I'm not a member of the church, I can still have those feelings. And so I can't say it is because of the church. I had the feelings, but. But I think in my mind, I think my love for my Savior, Jesus Christ and the godliness that lives inside of me give me those wonderful feelings that motivate me to live a good life. And I still have those.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Sure. Yeah. We'll talk about that at the end. Looking back now, do either of you see any? Because, you know, some of the listeners are like, that's it. I'm resigning from the church. The second anointing is unacceptable. Sometimes the second anointing brings out rage in people. And I don't necessarily get it. I think, what. It's just a baptism. There's confirmation, there's the first endowment. There's a second endowment. But other people get really angry about it for some reason.

Hans Mattsson [00:30:43] I can understand why. Because that church is not honest about it. They keep it secret. Why is it secret? It's a. You mean Christ?

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Of course they would say it's so sacred. There's something so sacred.

Hans Mattsson [00:30:56] We don't say sacred. I say secret. But I think it's just. I think what it is, is there's only 12 apostles and everybody would have it as a member. They have to work day and night for some long time. So I don't have. I don't have time to give it to everybody. So keep the request down. Don't say anybody. Don't tell them. Because if you do, they're gonna run to the apostles, say, I'm next. Put me on the list.

Birgitta Mattsson [00:31:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] But I mean, still. Okay, that's a little bit inconvenient, but what's wrong with having the ordinance? So you're saying the secrecy is the problem?

Hans Mattsson [00:31:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Well, like you say, have the ordinance, but just tell people. Tough. You don't get it. They get it, but you don't get it. Sorry.

Hans Mattsson [00:31:43] Yeah. I also have another thought about it, though. I think it's weird to have you already now living on this earth that you already guaranteed to be in the highest degree of. Of glory with the highest God, whoever that is. I mean that's kind of when you know that the one who recommend you or someone you probably know, well, maybe him will be good one. Why should someone have the freeway to heaven, the other one have to struggle and get to the judgment bar and have the hellfire around you to clean you before you can have any glory? I think that's something I can't understand really. If I look thinking about it. Why should I and not you, John? Why should I be the one?

Leaving the Church and Reflecting on the Ritual

John Dehlin [00:32:51] Because you were an area authority. Because you were.

Hans Mattsson [00:32:53] So what? I'm the child of God. That's the only thing I am. The other one is just titles. The child of God. And then God a child can grow up to be like, I don't want to have my brother go before me because hey, listen, you're the one, you can. You're already done. The other one, you can try to be good. I mean, that's not the God I really think should be the God. Maybe if you're the highest God you could be. I'm sorry I saying that, but I don't understand really what the most high God is. Sure there must be a lot of other gods underneath there.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] Right? Right. But what I hear you saying is you don't like the elitist quality to it.

Hans Mattsson [00:33:51] No. Before the Lord Jesus Christ says the last should be the first. The first should be the last. What that mean?

John Dehlin [00:34:03] Thank you. That's beautiful. Isn't that beautiful? Brigitte, do you have any now reflections about the ordinance that make you feel a little bit uncomfortable or not?

Birgitta Mattsson [00:34:18] I say yes to everything Hans has said. But also the things that you can sin in a lot of different ways that are really awful and you still have your election. Make sure. I think that's so crazy. Crazy people can go out and do the most horrible things and still they have the highest exaltation. I think, I think. I don't believe it. No.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Someone in our audience writes that it's sort of the second anointing is basically a way to engender loyalty. It's basically you give someone such the sacred experience with such a big promise, you're basically binding people's commitment and allegiance to you because they've experienced it. And so I guess they're implying that in some ways it's a little bit manipulative in addition to being elitist.

Hans Mattsson [00:35:20] Well, he's probably right. But was the same thing the temple covenants you do if you do that. You are also special people. You had done this and, you know, a lot of people have the same garments like you have. I mean, they are gone through the same promises and given all to the church. And some of them like to give it to Jesus instead. But you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:35:52] I do. And I'm thinking about the humble teacher, the humble farmer, the humble plumber or plumber's wife or whatever.

Hans Mattsson [00:36:02] They didn't.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] They weren't successful businessmen, they weren't successful lawyers, they weren't connected to the right family members. So they didn't get the callings that then led to them getting the opportunity to have the second anointing. There's a degree to which it's kind of held for the people who pay the money or who have the power or the influence or the education. And it doesn't appear to be, unless, we don't know, reserved for the more humble, the people that Christ would have lifted as the most worthy according to his standards.

Hans Mattsson [00:36:36] That's what bothered me today many times that because you are successful in the world, I think Jesus says the same thing. They have received their rewards in the this life, but you can take anything with you to the next life.

Hans Mattsson [00:36:56] I mean, I feel so. I mean, look at all the people that are humble, poor, struggle, feed the kids, honor their parents, and wherever they are, they are my heroes. You know, like, read the church history. We can read Brigham Young and some of the guys was sick, went on a mission, waved the arms that they hailed for Zion. And when they're waving to, there was the poor wives with the sick kids standing there. No one to feed them, no one to help them to run the homes, no one to help them with their agricultural life, to get in food. No. The heroes here in the church or Brigham Young, they left the home to go to England.

Hans Mattsson [00:37:46] I like to read about the wives staying home, took care of the sick people, didn't have any food. The ones that really, really have to sacrifice part of their life. Many times you can read that the children died during that time. And what a sorrow. The husband was not at home. It was terrible for them.

Hans Mattsson [00:38:12] There's my hero in the church history, right? And I hope they will have the second anointment. Maybe don't need to. They're there anyway. Yeah, I hope so.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] You would think. You would think. We're joined online by Stephen Hasson, who we've had on Mormon stories before. He's one of the world's experts in, I like to say in front of Mormon audiences, unhealthy organizations. You can fill in the blanks however you want. But he talks about how organizations like Scientology are known for their levels that you can. You can cite an unhealthy organization, unhealthy religious organization, by whether they have levels of attainment. And it becomes more and more secret as you move up the chain.

John Dehlin [00:38:58] And whether or not you want to ascribe those labels to Mormonism, it certainly checks that box of sort of these secret and sacred levels that you obtain that you're not told about as a non member and that you're not even told about as a member. But over time, if you prove yourself worthy, if you work up the chain, you get access to these higher levels of secret kind of things. And I think there's just a basic argument that to be says, let's not have anything that isn't disclosed. You're never doing anything without consent in an organization, whether it's your own endowment, whether it's your own baptism.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] Let's just never have secrecy. Let's know what we're getting into, let's be informed of what we're about to do, let's be told what it is, let's have everyone know about it, and then let's consent with full. With full disclosure.

Hans Mattsson [00:39:51] Amen.

John Dehlin [00:39:52] Yeah, I think that's. Yeah.

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