Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1127

Guest [00:00:01] One.

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Guest [00:00:42] One Life to Live Mind the Time.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Hello everyone. It is June 3, 2019. The date is important, but the guest is even more important. My name is John Dehlin. We are here on Mormon Stories Podcast and we are very excited today to have back on Mormon Stories Podcast Crystal Escobar. Those of you who are close followers and fans of Mormon Stories Podcast will recognize Crystal's name. Crystal and Sean joined us a few weeks ago on Mormon Stories and shared Epic, a gripping, emotional and powerful story with us about their lives growing up in the church, about their marriage, and specifically about Shaun Escobar's experience of abuse that was not handled appropriately by the Church. That left his abuser to go on and abuse other people. And that's been covered in the New York Times and it was a powerful story. And then we ended by talking about Crystal and Sean Escobar's faith crisis. What we didn't get to finish talking about or begin talking about was Crystal and her amazing story specifically around how she has navigated motherhood and trying to be entrepreneur. And what we're going to be talking about specifically, kind of as our target today is this book that Crystal has written. The book is called My Life as a Wannabe Balanced mom by Crystal Escobar and I'll just read what it says on the back and am I a good mom if I have interests and passions outside of motherhood? This question has plagued mothers for generations and I'll say especially Mormon mothers. As a mother of four and successful momtrepreneur, Crystal Escobar has documented her struggle with this balance between family and self on her popular blog, Wanna Be Balanced Mom? In this book she authentically shares her story of desperately trying to be liked by everyone, fighting against her wavering self worth, and always feeling she wasn't measuring up as a mother. And this is particularly important for the Mormon Stories audience and for the Mormon Faith Crisis audience and other audiences because when modern day Mormons are realizing that the way that many of us were raised is not going to work or is not going to bring us or our family joy in the long run. Specifically, if you guys will remember, in the past, we've had some women on who have been willing to talk about what it's like to have a faith crisis as a woman. But more specifically, when your life kind of falls apart, how do you deal with a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose, enjoying motherhood, but also realizing that maybe you want to have a career, maybe you want to have a profession, maybe you want to find other ways of meaning and purpose outside of religion, but also outside of wifehood or spousalhood or motherhood. And so it's really important for our audience, especially for the women in our audience, to get examples of other women who have found a way to navigate this. We had as one episode that I remember, Colette Larsen. Come on. A gripping episode. I strongly remember you guys. Check it out. Recommend you guys check it out. Colette talked about after a couple divorces and some severe medical issues with her children, how she became a successful entrepreneur as a woman. And so look to Mormon stories from time to time to be showcasing women who have rebuilt their lives during and after a faith crisis, incorporating meaningful pursuits and even professional endeavors work as a part of their rebuilding. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. And Crystal Escobar, I'm really grateful to have you back on to talk about your new book.

Crystal Escobar [00:05:15] Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Crystal's Background and Early Life

John Dehlin [00:05:18] So before we actually jump into the book, My Life as a Wannabe Balanced mom, let's just talk about your story. Let's, let's go back in time. We've covered a bit of your story already with Shawn, but why don't you just share with us your journey as a mom and your journey into your blog and ultimately into writing a book and being an entrepreneur as a Mormon mom and then as a post Mormon mom. Take us through that. And then later we're going to bring on, after we kind of have you tell your story, we're going to bring on some of your readers and we're going to have a little panel discussion about this book and how it applies to their life. But let's just begin. Take us back and talk to us about your story a bit.

Crystal Escobar [00:06:05] Okay. Yes. So when I first became a mom, and I do share all of this in the book, and my thoughts initially was complete overwhelmed, I suddenly realized all the responsibilities that I had as a mom, and not only just as a mom and keeping my kids safe and fed and caring for their every Every need. I also felt more. An immense amount of pressure from the religion to do it perfectly. Like our goal is to raise up these kids to be strong members of the church that would eventually go on, miss and get married in the temple. And it felt like a lot of weight on my shoulders. And I felt like in the beginning just a huge. I just felt a lot of worry that I might not do this right and that maybe I wasn't cut out for this because I just. I worried that I wouldn't be able to be. To teach them all the things that they needed to know. And feeling so much pressure around, you know, making sure that I read the scriptures with them regularly and say those prayers and do the family home evening and fulfill my callings. And all these different things that I felt in the beginning just felt really overwhelming. And at first I just kind of had a little pity party, like, oh my gosh, like, I don't know if I can do this. This is hard. I don't, like, I don't real. I didn't realize that was going to be like all of my time. And so I thought, well, maybe I'm just selfish because I wish I had a little bit of time to myself to pursue different dreams of mine, which one of them was to write a book. And I've had that goal for even before I became a mom. And so I think I had a lot of conflicting beliefs or just a lot of conflict in my mind wanting to do so much but not finding. Not feeling like I was allowed to in a way because we're taught in, in the church that, you know, a mother's role is in the home. And I felt a lot of pressure to make sure that I was giving. Devoting 100% of my time to my kids. But I also felt this, like, this urge deep within me to do something else. And so I think.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] Let me ask you, Crystal, let me ask you. Like, as I'm thinking about how I was raised and you guys are maybe a bit younger than me and Margi, but when I was growing up, Ezra Taf Benson was the prophet during kind of my high school years. And he was famous for giving these talks. You know, there's always the quote, no success can compensate for failure in the home. That's not Benson. But he would also give these conference talks or these BYU talks where he would basically say, the woman's place is in the home. If a woman works outside the home, she's betraying her kids, she's sacrificing her birthright, she's damaging the family. And so that's the environment that I grew up in. Just. And there was kind of this anti feminist sort of, you know, impulse as well. So that was there. And then of course there was kind of this Saturday's warrior mentality, which is there are all these spirits in the pre existence who are needing bodies. And if righteous, healthy Mormon families don't get those spirits, they're going to get sent to other families that aren't Mormon, heaven forbid, or that aren't righteous. And so all of that was this backdrop, this Mormon backdrop that. And of course women weren't encouraged to get their degrees, they weren't encouraged to get their education or if they did get their degrees or their education. And my mom even admitted this. She was taught a woman only needs two years of college. She taught my sisters this as well. So my sisters didn't end up graduating in their early years in the church. One of my sisters had to go back later to do that. But the point is that if women are encouraged to get a degree at all, it's usually elementary ed or homemaking or family, home and human development. And only as this backdrop to where, okay, if the husband dies or leaves the wife, then she can fall back on a really basic career that's not very lucrative. And so that's kind of the environment that many women enter into marriage. It's sort of very vulnerable, very dependent on the husband as the breadwinner, under educated, under experienced, career wise, and feeling like all their joy and meaning and fulfillment is going to come from popping out lots of babies and loving every minute of raising them. And that's probably a bit of an exaggeration, but does that resonate with what you.

Crystal Escobar [00:11:26] Not an exaggeration at all. You put it. You said that so perfectly. Because yes, I did feel this, this dependence on Sean, which I felt grateful for too, at the same time, like grateful that he was providing for us. But also at the same time, I didn't like feeling so dependent on him. I felt like I want to be able to contribute. I want to even know that I could provide as well. You know, I want to know that about myself. And I think I struggled with that a lot too. And I. And anytime I felt these feelings, I felt bad about myself, like, oh, I must not be like a good LDS mom because I'm not loving this 100% motherhood all of the time. Like there's something wrong with me because I want to do more. I want to work, I want to, I want to learn, I want to educate myself. And so I did feel like I didn't really talk about it, these feelings that I was having in the beginning of motherhood, because I felt really guilty about it. Like, there was something wrong with me for wanting to work, like, thinking, oh, maybe I don't love my kids if I want to be away from them sometimes, you know? And so it just, like, I just felt really bad about myself for even thinking those thoughts. Like, I would like to go pursue something. And, you know, I am happy with, you know, the way things turned out. I somehow figured out how to make it work, to be able to pursue my own thing and still be home with my kids. So I have no regrets. It's just, if I could go back, I would remove the constant shame I put on myself for wanting to work.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] Yeah. Okay, so when you and Chad got married, did you kind of have this agreement of how many kids you would have?

Marriage, Family Size, and Motherhood Expectations

Crystal Escobar [00:13:16] Yeah, I think we always knew we'd have at least four. Sean wanted more. And so. And I talk about this struggle that I had around deciding how many kids we should have in one of the chapters in the book. And. And I felt a lot of pressure to have more than four, which I felt like four was as much as I could handle. But I also felt a lot of guilt and shame that there was something wrong with me because I didn't have enough faith that I could handle another. And so I ended up getting a tubal ligation. And then I got it reversed because I was like, oh, wait, maybe God's mad at me. Maybe I can do this, you know? And so it was a lot of struggle with, you know, making the decision of how many kids we would have and feeling this pressure to have a lot.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] So you were thinking at least four. That was kind of the agreement going in. Was there an agreement of what your role would be versus his role? Was it even explicit or was it not explicit and just kind of implied or understood?

Crystal Escobar [00:14:18] Yeah, it was just understood. Like, we didn't really. I think we just. Anytime we would talk about. It wasn't like Sean saying, that is your role. It was more like, this is what the church teaches. Your role is to be a mom. But, you know, Sean was very good about trying to support me. Even, like, when I was helping out more in our. In our business together in Isagenix, he. You know, I would talk with him a lot, and I was really excited about what I was building in Isagenix, and I would talk with him a lot about, you know, is this. Do you think it's bad that I'm working, you know, because I would get a babysitter twice a week, and I felt really guilty about that, you know, so I could work.

John Dehlin [00:14:58] So as you start having kids, Sean's building his business. And is that. So was that the first taste you got of working outside, you know, motherhood was helping Sean build his business. Was that the first taste, or was there something before that?

Crystal Escobar [00:15:12] That was before my blog. Yep. It was working in the business together, I wanted to feel like I could contribute, that I had the ability to make money, too.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] And so when you take that first jump, are you thinking, we desperately need this because Sean needs my help? Were you thinking, oh, that looks fun. I want to be a part of that? Were you thinking, oh, man, I'm not getting the fulfillment that I really thought I would. I need something else to do. What were some of the initial impulses that had you take that first leap to help Sean?

Crystal Escobar [00:15:51] Yeah, and that was another reason why I felt bad about it is because we didn't. Sean always did very well with. With providing for us, so it never felt like I had to help, you know? And so that's why I felt even worse about it. Cause I'm like, oh, well, he's doing fine on his own. He doesn't really need my help. But I still felt like, but I want to do something. I want to do more. I want to help, and I want to even more. So just provide that for myself. That. That belief in myself that I can. I can make money too. You know, I just needed to feel that. But there was never any pressure to. From him that we needed, that he needed my help.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] Okay, so was that what. As you started having babies, did you. Did you feel like, oh, there's something missing? Or, oh, I'm not loving this like I thought, or, oh, this is harder than I thought, or, oh, I'm more than this. Talk about those feelings you were having as the babies were coming out, as Shawn was working, where you weren't just happy just being a mom all the time.

Crystal Escobar [00:16:59] Yeah. I would have all these different ideas come to my mind, like, oh, maybe I could do this. Oh, I could probably do this. And I would definitely suppress them. Like, sometimes I'd be up late at night thinking of all these cool ideas of things that I could do or that I wanted to do to build something to make money doing it. And I felt like I was just constantly suppressing that and thinking, oh, I could probably do that in, like, 10 or 15 years when my kids are all in School, I'll get to do that. So I would have, I guess, excitement and ideas of things I wanted to do, but I would definitely suppress a lot of it. And then I would think, well, maybe I could do a little bit. And that's where the whole blog, the balance and the idea of balance came in to be.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Because part of what I'm trying to get at is, you know, someone might say, well, you just must not have enjoyed being a mom. And sometimes the reaction will be, oh, no, I love being a mom. I just wanted to do more. Sometimes there's a legitimate reaction. Some women discovered they didn't really love it like they thought they would. And I want to create space for that too, because not everybody's cut out to be a stay at home mom or a mom or a dad or a stay at home dad. And you kind of don't know until you do it how much it fills you vs not how much you love it vs not how much you hate it vs not. So talk about that. What about motherhood either was harder than you thought or not as fulfilling as you thought, or did you feel any of those things?

Crystal Escobar [00:18:27] Yeah, I definitely did. And I guess it is still hard to admit that I didn't love it the way I thought I would, you know, because it makes me feel like I there, I'm not a good mom or I don't love my kids or something about it is still hard for me to say, but it definitely was not what I envisioned. You know, motherhood was not what I envisioned. And I thought that there would still be plenty of time for me to read books and to pursue different things that I wanted to do. But, you know, that was a shocker. It was a shocker when I started having kids realize that, oh, there is no time, like you don't get any time to do the things that you want to do. And then if you want to hire a babysitter to do the things you want to do, I just had to constantly feel guilty for it.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] Why guilty? Why would you feel guilty hiring a babysitter?

Crystal Escobar [00:19:20] Because that it felt like I was going against what the prophets have taught us. You know, that the womb, you know, that I should be devoting my time to always teaching my kids and playing with them. And, you know, I definitely liked doing that for a portion of the day, but. But I, I wasn't enjoying that 100% of the time. I wanted to just find time to do the things that I like to do. And then I felt more refreshed to do you Know the things to fulfill my role as a mom. So, yeah, I think it's just hard to admit that I didn't love it the way I thought I would, you know?

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Yeah. But it's so important to talk about it. So I just really appreciate you being willing to admit that. It doesn't mean you don't love your kids, doesn't mean you're not a good mom. It just means it feels differently. I've got someone close to me who married her husband and had kids, thinking it would make them happy, and it didn't make them happy. And they ended up blowing up the marriage because all the promises that were made to them didn't come true. I noticed that last week you joined the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast, where me and Margi and Natasha were talking about, you know, women going through a faith transition. I told the story of how Margi had gotten great grades. She was going to go get a master's degree in literature. She was a distinguished student in literature. And she was like this NCAA athlete, you know, top, you know, nationally sort of national caliber NCAA athlete. And then all of a sudden, she leaves byu, doesn't get her degree, you know, stops being a runner. And she started. It felt like she started going crazy, cutting her hair all the time, rearranging the furniture, cutting her hair again, getting angry a lot. And it took us probably 10 to 15, maybe even 20 years to realize that she wasn't totally happy in all that. And we probably had more kids than she really wanted to have. And motherhood didn't fill some of those places that she really needed to fill. And so she developed some pretty significant anxiety over that, and it caused a lot of conflict in our marriage. Can you relate to any of that?

Crystal Escobar [00:21:40] Well, I can relate to being angry a lot of the time and feeling just resentful towards Shawn, like, almost just wishing that I had his role instead, you know, Like, I wish I could just go work all day and you could just be here doing the household chores and making all the meals and dealing with the tantrums and staying up late, you know, all night with babies. Like, I had a lot of resentment. And, you know, Sean, he helped a lot, a lot. You know, he works from home. So I had it a lot easier than most women, I believe. But I still just wished I had more freedom to just work more. And I resented having to wake up late, you know, all through the night with babies and. Yeah, just frustrated that I felt like my role was a lot harder, you know, But I'm Sure. You know, it's not the case. I just wish that I think I just learned over time how to have a balance, you know, how to figure out how to incorporate doing the things that I want to do. And since leaving the religion, it's just really been more about being able to finally release the shame because I think I figured out how to just work anyway and to pursue the things that I wanted to. But I would like to go back and just remove all the guilt that I had.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Yeah, yeah. It's just so natural that guilt and shame you were feeling. And let's not jump too far ahead in the story because I kind of want to take this in a bit of a timeline. Lots of people are listening online. Leah Young says, so much peace and empowerment as we feel worthy and whole. She says, hi, Crystal Escobar. So shout out to Leah Young. Glad she joined us. Melissa says, I've been looking forward to this interview with Crystal. She also writes, I hate that Mormon mindset for women, referring to sort of women are to be barefoot and pregnant mindset and not to work outside the home. She says, I'm so grateful that I took the time to get two degrees. Heidi writes, it especially came hard when I was all of a sudden a single mom with three kids and a stay at home mom 20 plus years ago. Thankful now that I'm very independent and Lauren is also connecting with you. So lots of good listener feedback so far. And I just want to say, Crystal, that having spent a lot of time supporting Margi as mom and his dad and then working outside the home, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, in many ways being a mom is way harder. And the way she'd know that you don't have a lot of husbands begging to stay home and take care of the kids. Right. Women had to be conditioned to play that role. Taught that from a very young age. And husbands are very, very happy to stay late at work, to travel and are not breaking down the doors to stay home with the kids. And I think the fulfillment you get in the job place, the sense of independence, the sense of creative outlet, talking to adults all day, getting inspired, making friendships, achieving, getting paid more, getting a sense of security, all that's in many ways what's not the love. Right?

Crystal Escobar [00:25:00] Yeah. Yeah. But then we're taught that motherhood is the most sacred of all callings. So how could you dare say that you're not enjoying it 100% and that it's hard? Like I just felt like I wish I could have Just been a little more authentic about the way I was feeling and not suppress and be like, oh, there's something wrong with me. I'm not a good mom because I'm having these feelings.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] It's like, you get your flower on Mother's Day once a year at church. You should be grateful. Right?

Crystal Escobar [00:25:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] Okay, so you start helping Sean with his business, and you start liking it. How does your careers and aspirations develop after that?

Crystal Escobar [00:25:41] Well, yeah, I think that Sean was always very supportive. He never made me feel like, you shouldn't work, even though the prophets would say that, because we would talk about it and I would say, I really like this. Do you think it's bad that I'm doing this? And he would just reassure me, like, no, I think it's fine. And it's just more about having a good balance. And I still. I felt really good about figuring out how to still be all in as a mom and not just go 100% the opposite and be like, hey, I just, you know, let them fend for themselves. I'll just get babysitters all day, every day, and I'll do my thing, you know, I think I figured out a good, healthy balance around it.

Guest [00:26:26] Where.

Crystal Escobar [00:26:27] And that's when eventually I felt inspired to start writing my blog because I felt like, I think it is important for women mothers, and especially in the church, to get to a place of feeling like it's okay for you to pursue things that you like, to pursue your interests and to build something or to create something. I just realized how important it was for me. And so then I began blogging about it, and I felt like I could figure out a way where I could help these Mormon women, because that was who I. My target audience was Mormon moms, and I really wanted to help.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Let me ask you, Crystal, at the time you. About what year did you start the blog?

Crystal Escobar [00:27:14] In about 2010.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Okay, so this is nine years ago. What, were there other bloggers, mommy bloggers out there that you followed that kind of inspired you or not?

Crystal Escobar [00:27:29] Well, they weren't lds.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] That's fine.

Crystal Escobar [00:27:31] It was the Pioneer Woman, which event. At first, I did think she was lds, because it was called the Pioneer Woman. I just figured. And she. She just seemed like an LDS woman, you know, and she just, like, homeschooled her kids. She blogged, she wrote a book. And there was even. Definitely. Which is funny. Michelle Duggar, she. You know, the reality show 19 and counting. I was just like, oh, my gosh. Now this is an example of a woman who has done it all. And I'm going to do what she's done. I'm gonna have a lot of kids. I'm gonna homeschool them all. I'm gonna write a book, because she wrote a book, too. And I just figured. I saw these women that were doing all of it and feeling like, okay, well, they figured out how to. To do it all. And both those women that I was inspired by were women like Rae Drummond from the Pioneer Woman. I saw them doing a fabulous job at being a career woman. And, you know, they wrote their books and they homeschooled their kids and. But they weren't Mormon, but somehow they kind of. To live as a Mormon mom.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Okay, so you. So you say, I'm going to do this blog thing, I'm going to homeschool my kids, and I'm going to write a book and help people. It seems like an important part of that was you were trying to turn the difficulty of being a mom, of balancing things, of the guilt and the shame that you were feeling. You were trying to make meaning and purpose out of that by trying to help other women who are going through the same things. I very much relate to that. I went through a faith crisis. I wanted to do a podcast and a blog and eventually a book and a PhD to help people with the thing that I struggled with. Was that an important component for you, finding that cause that you could then help others with?

Crystal Escobar [00:29:28] Yes, that is exactly what it is.

Blogging, Homeschooling, and Finding Purpose

John Dehlin [00:29:30] Okay, so you start the blog and you start homeschooling. What was that like at the beginning? Was it easy? Did it just take off? Were you, like, an overnight sensation? How did it go when you first took that leap? What were those first steps, and how was that for you?

Crystal Escobar [00:29:47] My blog has just been. It's never been this huge, like, overnight thing. It's just been very gradual all these years. There's many women that have been reading my blog since I first started, and it's really cool to see that, but it was very. My blog was very small in the beginning, and it was small for a lot of a long time, but I still felt like I was connecting with women who. Who needed to hear what I was saying.

Guest [00:30:13] And.

Crystal Escobar [00:30:14] And I think that once I started, I think I just began piling more and more onto my plate and homeschooling. When I started homeschooling, I realized that I don't know how women are doing it. I don't know how these. Michelle Duggar, well, probably because she had so many kids that were helping raise the other kids, but it Just didn't. I didn't know how to find that balance and homeschool my kids and still have a blog. So I.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] And you talk about. You talk about this in one of your chapters in the book. Let's just talk about the homeschooling part for a second. How did that end up?

Crystal Escobar [00:30:54] It was definitely not what I envisioned. I thought that it was going to go, you know, I definitely had this perfect visual in my mind that we were going to just be home and I was going to make these healthy meals and we would have all this quality time together. I would teach them all these amazing life lessons and the house would be. They would help me clean the house. And it was just. Turned out to be a really great experience, but also not what I had hoped for. And which means my house was messy. It was stressful. A lot of the times I had no time to barely even work out and do anything that I wanted to do. I spent any free time that I had planning for the next day or any other activities that I was going to do with the kids. So there was no time for me, and there was no time for my blog. And so I quit the blog and just homeschooled. But then, little by little, I found myself feeling extremely depleted and just kind of losing enthusiasm for anything and frustrated. I think that that's the time where I yelled the most at my kids was when I was trying to be the perfect mom and just give them 100% of my time. And I just realized that I was just really unhappy because I. I couldn't find any time to do the things that I wanted to do or to do, anything that allowed me to feel somewhat replenished, you know.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] So did you have to give up the. The homeschooling?

Crystal Escobar [00:32:27] Yes. So I did give up homeschooling, and I felt a lot of guilt.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] How long did you do it?

Crystal Escobar [00:32:31] I did it for almost three years.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Okay, and at the end, you gave up?

Crystal Escobar [00:32:36] Yeah. And I felt really. I had a lot of. I felt really ashamed when I gave up because I thought that I was gonna do homeschooling. I was gonna go all the way through high school with all my kids, and I barely made it to third grade with my first, you know.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] So how did you deal with this feelings of failure, guilt, and shame around stopping homeschooling?

Crystal Escobar [00:33:06] I guess I just had to realize what happened and the fact that I can't. Maybe I'm not the. Because I know a lot of moms can do it. And so I couldn't just Say it just doesn't work, you know, mom, it's just not possible. And I think I would always compare myself with other moms that could do it and wondered, what is wrong with me, you know? So I just. I really just chalked it up to the fact that I must be just a little bit selfish because I need time to do things that. That really. That I want to do. So I think I just finally admitted that I am a little bit selfish. So that's kind of. I just thought that about myself, you know, that I just need to do my thing. And so I just accepted it, I guess. But now I don't see it as selfish. I just realized that there is a. You can find a balance between being there for your kids and being there for yourself.

John Dehlin [00:34:02] And I think it sounds like part of that is being willing to give up on some of your ambitions. It sounds like that was an important moment of learning that you do cover in the book, which is be able and willing to let some things go if you can't do it all. Is that right?

Crystal Escobar [00:34:21] Yeah, exactly. I had to definitely allow myself to let go of homeschooling and. And. And let go of trying to. Like, there's just a list long of things that I would do every day that I thought I had to do. Like, I would juice for my kids, like, every day for, like, two years. I tried to have a garden. I tried to. I did. I tried to not hire out any help and, you know, tried to teach my kids to do, you know, some of the housework. And so, yeah, I just think that I finally had to get to a point where it's okay to hire help. It's okay to quit homeschooling, it's okay to not have a garden. It's okay to not juice for your kids and have a perfect, healthy meal all the time. So I just had to let a lot of things go, and I realized that it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] I love it. Okay, back to your blogging. A billion people have started a blog, and half a billion people have started podcasts. And there's, of course, many, many other ways to have a career or hobbies or a profession or whatever. But I think something that's in common for all those endeavors is overcoming the fear of beginning. But then once you begin, if it, you know, sometimes after a month or two or three or six or even a year, it's easy to get discouraged. It's easy to lose focus. It's easy to lose commitment. Did you have those feelings of, like, this isn't working. I'm not a success. It's not as great. I'm not doing it as well as I should. How did you deal with those initial feelings in those first couple years when things weren't skyrocketing? How did you keep going during that time and not giving up?

Crystal Escobar [00:36:13] Yeah, I definitely compared myself a lot to other bloggers, other YouTubers, podcasters, Instagrammers, you name it. I was constantly comparing, feeling like maybe this isn't what I'm supposed to do because I'm not like, this overnight success or my videos aren't going viral, and everything is just a very gradual growth for me.

Guest [00:36:37] And.

Crystal Escobar [00:36:38] And what I realized, though, that when I did quit my blog because I, you know, I quit because I was overwhelmed from homeschooling. But I also quit feeling like, what do I have to offer? Like, there's already so many great bloggers out there. Why do I feel like I have anything new to offer? So I. I just allowed myself to quit thinking that it. Maybe it's just not what I'm supposed to do. But I realized that I just enjoy it. And I think once I finally got to that place of I don't have to worry so much about the numbers and how it's growing and who's reading it and all that, I realized that even if I. Even if nobody read it, I had to ask myself, well, do I still like doing it? And I do, because I see my own personal growth in the process. You know, my. You know, I love improving my writing skills. I love improving my communication skills through podcasting, and I love the creative outlet through making YouTube videos. So I just had to realize that it's not really so much about how many people are watching or reading or listening. It's more about doing what is very much fulfilling for me. So I think that you just have to get to that place. Anytime you're pursuing something that you just have to really understand and ask yourself, is it something that you really love to do, and are you doing it because you love to do it, or are you doing it because you're trying to make money or be this highly influential person, which I was in the beginning, I just thought, well, that equals success. But I realized over time that success just equals fulfillment is what success is. And I realized that I was just fulfilled doing these things. Whether people are reading or listening or watching.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] That's so critical. When I think about Mormon stories, I just realized that I loved talking to people and hearing their stories, and I could hear story after story after story, and Kind of never, never get sick of it. And I did it for years, never making any money to speak of at all. But it was so mission driven. It was such a thing of passion for me. And I just fundamentally enjoyed listening to people's stories that, that carried, carried me through those first several years where there was no statistical or monetary success, you know, that was in any way overwhelming or sustainable.

Crystal Escobar [00:39:14] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] Yeah. So, so you, you, are you saying you love writing and that you love blogging and that you've loved YouTubing? That's just stuff you is fun for you and you enjoy it?

Crystal Escobar [00:39:28] Yeah, I definitely do. I, it, it is fun to have. I think self expression is very important for me and I think most people to be able to express themselves in some way or another. And there's a lot of different avenues to do that. And for me, just creating videos and sharing my thoughts and different life lessons on the podcast and then writing it in my book has been very satisfying for me.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] I love it. What did you start noticing about your impact? So as you start blogging, as you start connecting with your audience, what type of feedback did you get and what type of reinforcement, positive reinforcement, did you get that you were actually doing stuff that meant a lot? Can you talk about the response of your early listeners and readers?

Vulnerability, Authenticity, and Social Media

Crystal Escobar [00:40:25] Yeah, I think over time I allowed myself to become more and more authentic and vulnerable. And anytime I would write the most raw experience, that's when people would really start connecting and reaching out to me. And, and that was good feedback and made me realize that people don't really want experts. They want real people sharing their real thoughts and feelings and experiences and struggles. And I, once I realized that I didn't have to play this certain role, I don't have to be this expert or this Pinterest mom, you know, that does everything perfectly. And you know, because I would, in the beginning of blogging, it was really about like, hey, this is some great, this is a great way to teach your kids this, or this is a fun activity you can do with your kids. And so it was all about like, more like Pinterest worthy stuff, you know, how can you be the perfect mom? You know, and, and I feel like my, it really shift over time as little by little I would start sharing real life things that I was struggling with. And that's when people would come out of the woodworks and be like, oh my gosh, I really loved your message. And I'm like, maybe I should do more of that because I actually really enjoy being real and Writing about things that are. That I'm going through in my life and things that I'm learning or things that I'm struggling with and what I'm learning about the things that I'm struggling with. And that became more exciting for me anyway, and I realized that's kind of what people want more of. So it kind of evolved into this, like, perfect, like, Pinterest worthy blog to, this is just my real life, and I'm going to lay it all out there.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Yeah. And that's something. That's something that Brene Brown really has. Right. I think in Mormonism and in many cultural traditions, we're encouraged hide our problems, put forward a perfect face or a perfect front, and make it, you know, emphasize the good and minimize the bad and make sure everything appears great. And what Brene Brown has taught us, among many other people, is that that's not how true human connection is built. It's actually when we're vulnerable, when we show our weaknesses, when we talk about difficult things, that people feel drawn to us. They feel like you're being real, they feel like you're being authentic, and they feel like they're not alone, that they're not crazy. And we all kind of heal and grow together to the extent that we're vulnerable and open about our challenges. Right?

Crystal Escobar [00:43:12] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It was very helpful. I loved reading all of Brene Brown's books. And definitely braving the wilderness was something that was really helpful for me when we first started being public about our faith transition, because like we told you in our first interview, it was very difficult to go from having the majority of my following being all Mormon moms, to coming out and saying, but guess what, guys, I'm leaving the church. I no longer believe in this. And there's a lot of angry moms, you know, people that really looked up to me and then were really disappointed, and that felt awful to disappoint so many people. But Brene Brown's book Braving the Wilderness helped me get through that and realize that I can't just continue pretending for the sake of being liked by other people. You know, I just have to put this out there. And it's been. It's been a roller coaster of emotions, but it was more intense in the beginning when I lost so many followers and received a lot of hate mail and a lot of women just really disappointed that I would put this out there so publicly, you know, shaming me and telling me that I'm, you know, causing people to doubt their own religion and. And their own beliefs, and I shouldn't be doing that. I should keep this all quiet. And I just couldn't do that. You know, I just couldn't hold such a big part of my life in. You know, this is just. This is what I'm going through, and there's no way I could remain silent about this.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] Yeah. And your and Sean's vulnerability has really been inspiring to so many people. So congratulations to that. Let's talk about a few of these subtopics. What's it like? Like, I'm torn, you know, just to the largest extent, Mormon stories has always been about showcasing other people, so I've been able to just hide behind in many instances, just allowing people to tell their stories. I haven't taken on the role of being the essayist or being the YouTuber or kind of being that public figure. Although now that Margi has started to do coaching and we've started to do some work together, there is a small degree to which a lot of our private stuff is now a little bit more out in the open. But let's talk about that. What's it talk about? The difficulties or the blessings of kind of like baring your soul to the world? Some would call it narcissistic. Some would call it attention seeking or attention grabbing. Yeah. How do you think about that when you're kind of living your life as if people are. It's almost like the Truman Show. Like you're. When you're constantly sharing photos, sharing podcast episodes, sharing essays, sharing your deepest and darkest things with everybody. Is that hard? Are there difficulties with that?

Crystal Escobar [00:46:21] Yeah, because people will always want to judge or draw their own conclusions. And it is hard because. And I think it was harder for me in the beginning because I would say something and I would get a message or something and they would be like, I can't believe you would say that. And then I want to retract, like, oh, wait, did I say that wrong? Or, oh, like maybe that came out wrong or. So I would question myself a lot when I would. If somebody would message me and, you know, and make me feel like what I shared didn't sit right with them. And so it is hard because you have to really detach yourself from that constant worry of, wait, if I say this, and Sean's really good at this. He's really good at just putting it all out there and not really. Not really second guessing himself. You know, he has a lot more. He trusts himself more than I do. And I'm still working through that and trying to get to a Place where I'm like, well, yes, this may rub somebody the wrong way. I may not say this right. You know, there's always gonna be people that disagree.

John Dehlin [00:47:32] How do you get confidence that you have something worthwhile to share? Like, there's a 7, 8 billion people out there. Everybody would have something to share. Maybe you would feel insecure. I'm not smart enough. I'm not educated enough. I'm not wise enough. I'm not old enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not handsome enough. I'm not, you know, famous enough, Whatever it is. How do you get to the place where you feel comfortable giving people advice or sharing your perspective? Because I think we all, if any of us are in the public arena in some way or another, we have to kind of reach that moment of saying, no, I do think I have something to contribute. How did you get there?

Crystal Escobar [00:48:18] I just really am of the belief that every single person, whether they're, like, on social media or not, have something extremely valuable for somebody else here in this life. And I. I just happened to choose to do it on social media. But I feel like based on my own experiences, when I look back on all the different people who have influenced me and who I am, it. It's like these little, tiny experiences, like one person I only conversed with for one day who really impacted my life. And so I. I realized that there's certain things that you say, there's certain experiences that you have, even down to the voice, your voice, the way you look, the. The exact experience that you have. There's something about you that is needed by somebody else, you know, and I feel like. Like it is funny to think even down to the voice, because certain people will share certain messages, and maybe you don't like their voice, or maybe you. Something about their voice is very comforting. So I just think that everybody is so completely unique, and our experiences are unique. And when I think of all the people who have shared their stories with me and how much it impacted my life, I realized that it is important for us all to share our stories. And it doesn't have to be on this kind of a platform. I just. That's where I'm choosing to do it. But I feel I'm very confident in knowing that those. And I really love the law of Attraction. I believe that the people who are needing my exact story and what I have to offer will find me. And just like I've found the people that I've needed, and I feel that way, like Finding Mormon Stories podcast. I feel like, it was just so crazy how I discovered it and it was exactly what I needed. And so I think that as we all do our part in sharing our stories on any kind of platform or even just in real life connections, you really are having an impact on other people's lives. And you don't have to be any kind of an expert, you don't have to have a certain kind of a background or experience. Could you say that again?

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Yeah, totally. Okay, here's another question. When you're kind of, when you're doing a blog or YouTube channel, you're basically showing them your kids, you're showing them your husband or your spouse, you're showing them your lives. And I imagine it can get in your head. Like instead of just enjoying the family vacation, you're worrying about your hair and the clothes and the shot and how that image gets portrayed. And instead of enjoying that family moment, there's always like this extra process in your head of like, should we photograph this? Should I blog about it? Should I text about it? Is there ever this conflict of like, how do we just be the Escobar in a private way versus like, you know, how do we make sure we're creating content for the blog or the YouTube channel? And does the desire to be public ever disrupt just the ability to live that day to day life?

Crystal Escobar [00:51:41] Yeah, that's a great question. And I think I have found a really healthy balance around it. But in the beginning, or not even so much in the beginning, but just maybe even like four, three or four years ago, it did feel all consuming. Like it's constantly on my mind. Oh, I need to create a video, I need to take a picture of this. I need to share a post here. I need to do that. And, and it was all consuming and I didn't like how it's making me feel. And Sean didn't like how it was disrupting our, our life and just enjoying activities together. But I think over time I've just allowed myself to detach from it a little bit more. I'll do like, I won't always document everything that we're doing. Like I'll go multiple days without posting any Insta stories or posting any pictures. But in the beginning, or even just like I said three or four years ago, I definitely felt this pressure that I needed to post constantly and everything needed to be out there on social media. And that's the way to become successful as a blogger and any kind of an influencer. So I've kind of just let that all go and we'll take pictures here and there if we want to, but there's lots of times where we'll go out on a hike or somewhere and I won't take an insta story or take a single picture. And I'm just really trying to enjoy the moment, but I just, I think it just was a process of me trying to find that healthy balance and releasing that. That pressure to constantly be posting everything about our lives. You know, I feel like I can write about things later. Like if it's an experience that is meaningful, I'll write about it later. I don't have to capture it in the moment.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] Okay, so you kind of have firewalled some. Just family time where you're off the grid, off social media, off the mind, out of the mindset of having to capture. And by having sort of that firewall, you can protect enough family time to where you feel like you and your family are getting what you need.

Crystal Escobar [00:53:46] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Key Themes From the Book

John Dehlin [00:53:48] In your book, you talk about. I'm going to talk about just some of the micro themes in your book and then we'll bring on some of your readers. You talk about overcoming jealousy and resentment. I think that's something that a lot of moms deal with. It's sort of like you want to just do good, but then you see other people. And by all appearances, and by the way social media contributes to this, social media looks makes it look like everybody's happy, everybody's healthy, everyone's marriage is great, everyone's kids are thriving, everyone's successful. So you can feel insecure. And then sometimes that insecurity can either lead to jealousy or resentment or just depression. What are your tips for moms who struggle with insecurity, jealousy or resentment? What have you learned has been helpful for you?

Crystal Escobar [00:54:35] Well, I think it's important to all be of the understanding that with the way we use social media, it is kind of a trend that we post our most beautiful pictures and we don't have to be angry about that and you don't have to post your crappy pictures just to prove a point, you know, and be like, well, I'm gonna be more real than other people. I think that it is what it is and you have to just realize that that's what we're doing, we're posting our best pictures and you don't have to be angry about that. But. And know that nobody has a perfect life. And I think that's just a false belief that some of us may have adapted and think, well, they just have it better than Me, but I just have come to realize, you know, getting to know people online and then offline and realizing, like, whoa, they. They hide a lot of this stuff, you know, like, this is not out on social media, which. Nor should they have to put it out on social media just to be like, okay, guys, I promise, like, my life sucks too. You know, like, we don't have to do that. We don't have to contribute to negativity or complaining on social media by. By. For the sake of being real, you know, like, let's just be of the understanding that we're all. We're all posting our best pictures. We're all just trying to keep it positive on social media. We don't need to use social media to complain and be like, yeah, you know, my life sucks because this. This happened. You guys all feel better now, you know, So I just think that it's. We just have to realize that that's kind of the game of social media, and it's our job to stop comparing and thinking that other people have it better than us.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] And taking social media just totally out of it for a second. How does a mom who's just looking around her ward or looking around her neighborhood, how does a mom deal with feelings of insecurity and depression and jealousy and envy, taking social media out of it just psychologically

Crystal Escobar [00:56:37] and practice, I think surrounding yourself with people that you can really connect with, that will be more vulnerable. And for me, and I don't want to use a blanket statement and say that all LDS women are not being open and authentic about their real life, but in my experience, I haven't found many friends within the church who would really open up to me and would be willing to share, you know, things that they're struggling with. And it was very surface level. A lot of my friendships in my own ward and, you know, in the church, we never really got to know each other on a deeper level because I think because of what we're taught, we're afraid to share those things because first of all, we think maybe we're the only ones that are struggling with this. Or second of all, we're not supposed to talk about even past transgressions. I always felt worried about talking about any of my background experience as a teenager or anything like that, because I felt like we're not supposed to share those things, which was really hard for me on my mission. I wanted to share more of my life story, but there was so much that I was tiptoeing around, and I wished I could just be comfortable being more authentic and just sharing whatever I felt like I wanted to share, not worrying about the judgment of others. So I don't know if there's like an easy answer. Like, how do you not feel jealousy and resentment when you're constantly comparing yourself? I think it just takes time and work on. And I talk about this in the book. Like different things that I've learned to really question my own thoughts and beliefs. Like I learned a lot from Byron Katie's book Loving what Is and really getting to the root of. Wait, why do you believe this? Why do you think? Because she got a new remodeled kitchen. Why do you think that her life is better than yours or that her kids always eat healthy food? Like, what's making you think believe that you are any less than her because you see something good about her? Like somehow it's taking away from you.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] It sounds like you're saying think it through. Realize that everybody's got their skeletons, everybody's got their problems. And in some sense that's just what the brain does is compare and make you feel kind of inadequate. But it sounds like you're also saying surround yourself with really good people who are vulnerable, who are real and don't live too much in the online world or in the virtual world or don't live in solitude. Find some real friends to connect with about what you're experiencing in life and about what they're really experiencing in life. Is that right?

Crystal Escobar [00:59:28] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] And not friendships based on competition and trying to make it look as though you've got everything together and each one trying to outdo each other. Maybe try to find friendships where it's just all about the good and the bad and supporting each other and helping each other through. Is that right?

Crystal Escobar [00:59:48] Yeah, exactly.

Guest 2 [00:59:55] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. One is a song by singer songwriter Mindy Gledhill off of her new album Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com

Guest [01:00:30] but they're all the same to me when we wor and though we may speak in different times May our hearts be sewn together when our hearts feel so undone to our pieces be calm what one life to live Mind the time

Crystal Escobar [01:01:16] while it

Guest [01:01:17] takes we are here in this moment let's unwrap it it like it's the most beautiful thing.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1128

Guest 2 [00:00:01] One.

Guest [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Marriage, Body Image, and Faith Transition

Guest 2 [00:00:42] One Life to Live Mind the Die.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] You have a chapter on women deciding whether or not to have another baby. How have you helped women figure out how to decide how many more kids to have or not have?

Crystal Escobar [00:01:06] I think it was getting clear on what was causing me to be so back and forth with my decision and it all came down to fear. Fear of making the wrong choice, fear of regrets or and also believing that somehow by having more kids you might find some kind of fulfillment. And I think with my decision for the fifth child that we never had, but I was struggling with so, so much with the back and forth thinking, like I made the wrong choice, I should have more kids, I should have more faith that God would help me, and then finally deciding, okay, I'm going to do it, I'm going to try to have another. And then not getting pregnant and then getting to a point where, wait a minute, I don't really want another baby. And then like feeling, I think when I initially made that decision with baby number five, was thinking that I was going to find some kind of satisfaction or fulfillment from that fifth child. And I think, and then that was right. This whole struggle with having, deciding to have the fifth child was right around the time of, of our faith crisis. And I think that I was searching for something and feeling like there was something that I needed to be doing or something that needed to happen in my life. And I think that maybe it was confusion of maybe it means another baby. But I think now looking back, I can realize that perhaps it was my soul wanting to come, to grow and expand more and come out of this lifelong relig that is holding me back. And I think I can. I think, like I like to talk about my life in puzzle pieces and realizing that as I'm putting these pieces together more and more, I'm beginning to see the masterpiece. And it does start to make more sense over time. You start to realize, oh, maybe that's what caused me to have fear around this or what caused me to make that decision. It's something much bigger than what you can see at this point.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] Love it. And so you decided not to have that fifth kid.

Crystal Escobar [00:03:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] How's that worked out?

Crystal Escobar [00:03:35] Yeah, I think we're both.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] There's that spirit up in heaven that now is going to go to a bad family.

Guest 2 [00:03:40] I know. Yeah.

Crystal Escobar [00:03:42] That was nice. It was right, like right when we had the faith crisis is when I made the decision to stop trying for the fifth child.

Guest 2 [00:03:50] And.

Crystal Escobar [00:03:51] And it was very peaceful. Feeling like I didn't feel. The only regret I had is that we spent so much money on getting the tubal ligation reversal. And so I've always carried that, like feeling bad that we went through that whole process. That was very expensive procedure and. But I don't feel any of those feelings that I had in the beginning when I got my tubes tied and feeling that God was disappointed in me or I could have done more, I could have more faith or why don't I have more faith? I feel like so much peace with my decision now. I'm no longer questioning myself and my own choice, which I constantly did probably the majority of my marriage with Sean constantly feeling like I didn't. I didn't trust my own choices.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] What have you learned about marriage and specifically marriage to Sean? You know, you've got a chapter. My marriage, my muse. You've got a chapter. Why doesn't he support my dreams? What has this whole journey and process taught you about marriage and about a woman's role, a man's role or spouse's roles, or evolving non traditional roles? What have you learned?

Crystal Escobar [00:05:05] Definitely, I mean there's just so many which we did touch up on. We talked a bit about it in the first interview that Shawn and I did with you together and some of the things that were very eye opening for us in our marriage. But overall, I think finally getting to a place of more equality, more open communication and more independence, maybe more on my end, emotionally independent. Because I definitely felt like I relied on Sean a lot to say exactly what I wanted him to say, to do exactly what I wanted him to do. And I thought that, that I thought that these desires were valid. And now realizing that it's very important in marriage to get to a place where you can be your own support. And just because he doesn't say exactly what he. What you want him to say doesn't mean necessarily that he doesn't support, support your dreams or that he's. He doesn't understand you. I think that really it all comes down to, well, I can't expect him to be as passionate about. About my blog as I am, you know, and so, like. Or as passionate about putting on an event for women as I am. So I think I just took it really harsh because he wasn't saying, I had this idea in my head of what he would say and what he would do. And then if he doesn't fulfill that, then I think there's something wrong. But it's just more realizing that you have to be the one that's supporting you. You have to be the one that believes in you. You have to be the one that loves you 100% and not always counting on your husband to fulfill all of that for you.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] And part of that means being emotionally independent, not always needing their validation and not always needing their permission. Is that true?

Crystal Escobar [00:06:58] Yeah, exactly. Yes. So true.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] Yeah. And you talk about feeling beautiful at any age, shape, or size, and yet I've also seen you do, like, modeling shoots. And you and Sean, you know, are. I'm sure you guys work hard to stay fit and to be as attractive as you can. So some people are going to be like Crystal Escobar. You're not going to lecture me about feeling better at any shape, age, or size. They're going to say, well, you guys are the beautiful people, and you're not the ones that have to worry about these insecurities. How are these people right or wrong if they were to feel that way?

Crystal Escobar [00:07:41] Well, I think one thing that people don't really realize is that we all have things that we don't like about our physical bodies. And no matter if other people might look at us and think, like, what do you have to complain about? There are things that maybe they never. They don't see that I see. You know, like, for me, which I do plan to talk about in my next YouTube video, is like, acne has always been something that I've struggled with, and it's always been very embarrassing for me to talk about, and I've never really talked about it on social media, and. And I'm able to cover it and hide it well. So people don't know that there are other things that every person struggles with. And maybe it's not their weight, you know, maybe it's not things that they can see outwardly, necessarily. And for me, definitely a lot of it happened after having babies where I gained almost 50 pounds with every baby. And so I definitely. There were definitely times where I was a lot bigger and I was not happy with my body. I had a big belly, and I didn't post a Lot of pictures then. So people may not realize that I definitely struggled with my weight at different times in my life. And having babies and seeing your stretched out skin and every part of your body changes. And so I think that, yeah, that people might initially judged. But I think if they really knew my background and they really knew about the things that I'm even afraid to talk about now, which is the acne, which is very embarrassing for me, then they might feel like they can relate a little bit more. And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm still trying to branch out more and become even more relatable and talk about the things that I'm still embarrassed about, you know?

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Yeah. I think one thing we all need to realize is no matter how much money you have or don't have, no matter how much education you have or don't have, no matter how skinny you are or not skinny, no matter how handsome or beautiful people perceive you or not, it kind of doesn't matter. There's always someone smarter. There's always someone richer. There's always someone who seems happier. There's always someone who seems skinnier or more fit or stronger. Like it's kind of almost a level playing field that any of us can get sucked into that game. And nobody knows what's going on behind the scenes. Nobody knows what people's private insecurities are. I mean, you think about Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson was an international superstar, the heartthrob of millions and millions of boys and girls. And he was always unhappy with his appearance. He was always having surgeries to tweak his appearance or to change his complexion. And the money and the fame and the status probably made things worse, not better. And so I think it's important that we have to find a way to feel good about our intelligence, our education, our marriage, our family, our appearance, our body size. That's almost like the universal human struggle, isn't it?

Crystal Escobar [00:11:02] Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that's why I wanted to talk about then also share that I have struggled with different things that people may not know about. And the goal is to really stop identifying ourselves with our physical bodies, which is a very challenging thing for us to do as human beings. We're very much identified with the way we look.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Yeah. All right, so as let's. The last theme that you cover in your book, My Life is a Wannabe Balanced mom by Crystal Escobar, you end the final chapter is about being awake. Why don't we talk about that and then we'll bring on what does that mean to you to be awake? And then we'll bring on couple of your readers to share their perspectives about life and what they've learned from your book.

Crystal Escobar [00:11:57] Okay. Yes. Well, I did actually want to give a little background on what. Well, I did explain that in the middle of writing this book was when I had my faith crisis and everything came crumbling down. And I had already written about half of the book, and I signed. I signed with a publisher, a local publisher that has also published many other books from LDS authors like the Tattooed Mormon, the Book of Mormon Made Easier. And so when I first signed with that publisher, I was like, yes, this is perfect. I finally get to write my book. And I started writing the book halfway through. Then I had my faith crisis and I was like, oh, my gosh, how am I supposed to finish this book? I just can't do it now. And so I contacted the publisher and let him know what I was going through and asked them if I could write about my faith transition in this book. And they agreed to let me write about it as long as I don't mention the name of the book or of the church that I was leaving. And so I agreed to do that and I wrote it. But then Deseret Book came back and said, because they were going to carry my book, and they said that they would love to have my book in their. In their stores if I would remove about three paragraphs. So I made the decision to go ahead and remove those three paragraphs, but I shared the full, unedited, original version of that chapter, Chapter six, the Breakdown before the Breakthrough on my podcast. And so, yeah, I did actually get to vaguely write about my faith transition. And this book is in Deseret Book, surprisingly, and in Costco and, you know, all other local bookstores in Utah. And. But yeah, I was very surprised that they allowed me to talk about. About that in the book. And I was happy. So I guess it is still hard because I had to keep a lot of things that maybe I don't necessarily want in the book anymore, which. But I still want to come from a place of love for all the apostles and prophets of the church. But I did quote quite a few of them, so I still feel like I can. It's very much authentic, but at the same time, I don't know if I would still quote them anymore.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] Right. So you. It's. It's a complicated thing. It's an impossible thing to write a book. It's even more complicated when you're writing a book that's Going to have a religious audience and you're going through a faith crisis.

Crystal Escobar [00:14:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] You're going through your own evolution as you're writing the book.

Crystal Escobar [00:14:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] But it sounds like you found a way to pull all that together and that's to your credit.

Crystal Escobar [00:14:43] Yeah, I think I can. The book can relate to Mormons and ex Mormons and anyone, really.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] I love it. All right, well, this has been so, so fun so far. I think you're covering such an important topic now. I think it'd be fun to bring on a couple of your readers. And we've got Holly and Leandra on now. But Crystal, you were gonna bring on a third, is that right?

Crystal Escobar [00:15:11] Yeah. Let me.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] So you may need to shoot a message to. You may need to shoot a message to that third person and have them join Leandra. If you can tilt your phone 90 degrees, that would be great because I think you're coming across. There you go. All right, well, let's bring on our two listeners for now. Let's start with Holly. Holly, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. Tell us a bit about yourself.

Readers Join to Discuss the Book

Guest 2 [00:15:43] Hi, John. Hi, Crystal.

Crystal Escobar [00:15:44] Hi, Holly.

Guest 2 [00:15:46] Hi. I'm surprised that I actually figured out how to get on here. I was like nervous about the technology behind it.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] You sound great.

Guest 2 [00:15:55] Thank you. So I live in Northern California. I am married, just had our 20th year anniversary and have three daughters who are amazing. Brenna, Lacey, Chloe. I'm a stay at home mom. I work full time from home and just. I don't know if I should save this for later, but maybe my connection with Crystal. Do you want that now or later?

John Dehlin [00:16:22] Yeah, yeah, go ahead. And then I just want to hear a little bit about your story and what made you interested. What about your experience made you interested in Crystal's book? But you know, I don't mind if you share the connection.

Guest 2 [00:16:32] Okay. So Crystal, you know, I don't. Go ahead. Okay. Sorry, I thought somebody was talking. So Crystal and I knew each other a long time ago through a mutual friend, but didn't really know each other very well. And for a while we've been following each other on social media. Last spring, or actually was about this time last year, I won tickets to her event in Utah. So I flew in from California and came to her event. And I hope this doesn't embarrass Crystal, but this is. We're getting real here. So I remember coming to her event. It was wonderful, but I was.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] What was the event about? What was the. What type of event was it?

Guest 2 [00:17:15] It was her wannabe balanced event that she.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] Oh, Fun.

Guest 2 [00:17:19] Yeah. So I did not know at the time that she had been going through a lot. So I came to her event and I was really excited to meet her or see her again. And I just felt like there was kind of a disconnect with us. And so I didn't think much of it other than, oh, darn, I felt like we would maybe connect a little bit more. So that was that. And then come to find out she had been going through her faith transition and I had been following her during that time and sort of been going through the same thing, but not quite where she was. In fact, I was so heck bent on staying in the Mormon Church. That was just my mindset at the time. So then several months later, we connected through Instagram and she had kind of assumed that I stopped following her because she knew that I was very devout in my faith. And at that time, we both reached out to each other and she said that during her event that she put on. She did that in the middle of everything she was going through. And it was really hard for her because she knew that she was going to have to come out and talk about her faith transition while still putting on this event. And so it was hard for her to connect with certain people. So we just kind of had this kind of this little beautiful little moment where I just let her know that I was sorry that she felt that way and she was sorry that we couldn't connect. And since then, we have been able to talk to each other a lot about our stories and hers prefaced mine by maybe six or seven months. So it's just been neat to connect with her. And I just love her vulnerability. And she's just got this, I would say, a good balance between confidence and humility, which I think is a really

Guest 2 [00:19:06] wonderful thing to have.

Guest 2 [00:19:08] And I love her book. It's inspiring.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] So that's great. Thanks for sharing that. Holly, tell us just a bit about your story. I know a little bit about you. Tell us what your journey has been at balancing motherhood, the church and career.

Guest 2 [00:19:30] Ok, that's a big question. I'm still trying to find that balance. And I think that for so long, and Crystal pointed this out in her book, I think in the beginning she talks this sort of being obsessed with finding balance, and she crosses out the word obsessed and puts the word passion in there. I love that. But for me, I've always been trying to find balance between being a mother and a wife. And I've had my job for 19 years and I've got three kids. Who are obviously very busy. And I would say,

John Dehlin [00:20:08] let me ask you, how did you not get the memo that Mormon women weren't supposed to work?

Guest 2 [00:20:13] Well, I think I justified it because I work from home, so.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] But you were orthodox, right? You were devout or you are. What do you. I see shoulders. So I guess there's. You can't be devout if you're showing shoulders.

Guest 2 [00:20:25] So I would say I was devout for many years. I served a full time mission. I was very active, faithful, served in many presidencies one after another. I think my faith transition actually began when I was young women's president a couple years ago. But I would say I started to acknowledge it when I was in the Relief Society presidency right after that. So, yeah, I was very devout. My husband had kind of stopped believing a lot of things earlier, but I was very checked out to listening to anything he had to say because it was. I was all in. And so I began to have some experiences in my life where I just felt some disconnect with.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] Let me ask you, let me back up a bit. What made you feel like you could work? Honestly, like, I knew when I was growing up, it just. Women weren't supposed to work outside the home. And there's always been a lot of pressure. Of course, there's always been working Mormon moms and working Mormon women, but there's also been this heavy culture of a bias against it. So how did you end up one of those working moms? Kind of from the start,

Guest 2 [00:21:40] what was

John Dehlin [00:21:40] it that made you feel comfortable going against the cultural grain?

Guest 2 [00:21:44] You know, honestly, that's one of those cultural grains that for me, I never really felt that strongly about. Like my mom didn't work when we were young. She got a job when we were all in school, a part time job at. I never felt really strongly about that particular cultural view. I just. My husband was going to medical school, residency. We needed the money. I enjoy my job. So I would say I struggle more with the guilt of balancing my kids and my job more than I do as much the church part of it. I didn't really feel a lot of guilt about that. That just was not one of those things I felt guilt about.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] So what were some of. Tell us a little bit about that struggle of feeling good about your job, needing the money, feeling fulfilled in your career, but trying to parent your children. Tell us about that struggle.

Guest 2 [00:22:37] I think for me, because I work from home, I had to balance my time. I've had to really learn a lot about time management and I'm still learning that now that my girls are all in school full time, it's a little bit easier. When they were little, it was very hard to balance it, but now they're in school so all hell breaks loose about 2:30 when they get home. And I still have about an hour and a half of work to do and I have to make threats or go put them in the closet or. No, I'm joking a little bit. But it's a little bit hard when they're home and I'm trying to work. But I think I've done a pretty good job of balancing it. And my job has been my. The management team over me has been really flexible and great to me to work with.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] So you're kind of like a Mormon woman success story in the sense that you've always been able to kind of find a decent balance. Of course there's no perfection, but have a career but also be a mom. So in that sense you've kind of been able to find a good balance. Is that fair to say?

Guest 2 [00:23:39] I would say yes. But if you were a fly on the wall of my home, you would see how emotionally hard many days are for me.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] Sure. So what, what, what about Crystal's book resonated with you, Holly?

Guest 2 [00:23:53] Gosh, so much of it. I mean, I have to say, just because of what I'm going through right now in my life, which is a major faith transition and also some other things that are going on for me personally, which I'm not quite ready to talk about yet. But I think chapter six really resonated with me just because I understood and have so much empathy for Crystal and for what, what that process is like. And I've talked about this with Chapter

John Dehlin [00:24:24] six is called the Breakdown before the breakthrough. Crystal talked about this earlier. What was it about that chapter that resonated with you?

Guest 2 [00:24:31] Well, if you, if you were to look at my book, you would see all my deep, dark secrets because I write, I write and journal all.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Oh, wow.

Guest 2 [00:24:39] So let me just. I'll just point out a paragraph that I loved. She says the turning point came when I finally started to relax into the fear. I felt like I was falling, but I was able to relax and enjoy it at the same time as if I were skydiving, knowing I had a parachute attached to me and I would safely land when the time was right. And this was the part, this was the part for me that really struck me as I allowed the discomfort of fear to flow through me and as I quit resisting it. That's when I was able to take control of my mind. Once again, I found my core belief in God. Not the God that everyone taught me to believe in, but my own version of God. It was incredibly empowering to discover this from within and not based on anything I was taught growing up. That was really resonating for me, because through my faith transition, I have had to find that I've had to really dig deep and go to my very core and listen to my inner voice above anyone else. And I am a pleaser. I'm a people pleaser. So it has been very hard for me to come out to people in my life and to be okay with the fact that they might be judging me or wrongly assuming things. But she says she talks about being open to everything and attached to nothing. And I realized that I have been attached to a lot of things, including the church, in my life, and I wasn't as open as I feel like I am now. So that just the part. She just talked a lot about surrendering and being okay with the discomfort that comes with this. And. And for me, that's really been the key to my growth, is just to be okay with the discomfort. And that's something I'm learning one day at a time. But that chapter really resonated with me. All of them did, but that was probably my favorite.

John Dehlin [00:26:37] I love it. All right, Holly, it's great to have that introduction. We'll come right back to you. Maybe we'll bring on the other panelists. Is that all right?

Guest 2 [00:26:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] All right. Leandra. Is that how I pronounce your name? And let me unmute you.

Guest [00:26:54] Leandra.

John Dehlin [00:26:54] Okay, go ahead. Leandra.

Guest 2 [00:26:56] Yeah, it's Leandra, but I'm not really picky.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] Leandra, that's great.

Guest 2 [00:27:00] It's one of those names you can't be picky about.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Leandra, tell us a little bit about your story and what led you to want to read Crystal's book?

Guest 2 [00:27:12] Well, my story is a little bit. It's a whole other thing on its own. I started being a mom when I was very little. I started raising my younger siblings when I was just a little girl and taking care of them. And I'd always had this idea in my mind. Growing up in my biological family like this was not how families were supposed to be. It was just this gut instinct that someday we would have something different, whether it was our family we were born with or something else. So fast forward, I don't know, years Until I was 11, we were in foster care, and almost two years later, we're adopted by an LDS family, which is where my introduction to the church came. And it wasn't until then I'd always just thought because I'd worked so hard to keep my family together, that we would always be a family. It had never entered my mind that families could be forever. It was that families are forever. And suddenly here I was, a new convert to the church and being told that no, families aren't forever. Families can be forever and it's up to each individual person to make sure that that happens. So all of a sudden my relief I felt for being adopted and having what I thought was going to be kind of the calm after this huge storm I'd been in ended up just putting this more pressure on my shoulders to just. Even my patriarchal blessing had stated that if I was, if I honored my father and my mother and I stayed true to the church, so would my little siblings. And sorry about that. And so all of a sudden I just had this huge pressure that now I was responsible for my siblings eternal salvation and that if I had any hope of being with them in the next life and any children that I would have, I would have to live as perfectly as possible. Fast forward to my adult life and having my own children, that was really hard on me because I always kind of struggled with aspects of the church, but not really understanding where those feelings that made me uncomfortable were coming from. We were always told that the feelings that you have that aren't really positive about the church aren't, you know, they're from Satan, so you just ignore them. And so with my kids, I felt like I was never enough. I just, nothing I could do would matter. At that point, my siblings had all left the church and I just felt like it was my fault because I wasn't perfect. After I graduated high school and got married and struggled with things and so when it came to my children, I have children with disabilities. I have a daughter that's blind and autistic and has really bad seizures. I have an 8 year old with Asperger's, a 4 year old with autism, and a 3 year old with autism. I just felt like I was never measuring up. I saw all these moms who came to church and one of the things that I used to joke and tell people is that I could always spot a Mormon mother because she had a smile on her face but a boulder on her shoulders and it was just this weight that they were carrying. And when I met Crystal and Sean, I was so excited because for the first time I felt like I had met somebody who coupled with very authentic, not just to their perfect life, but also to their imperfect life. And that's something I've always really, I've tried to do myself is share not just the perfect moments, but the imperfect. And as I read Crystal book when I originally bought it, I was like, sweet, here's a mom that's doing something for herself. I'm going to support her and buy her book. And then after I got done reading it, I was like, oh my gosh, this is going to be so amazing for so many women. My favorite chapter was chapter four, discovering your mission and your purpose. And my most favorite line of the whole book is when she talks about how I believe each of us has something so unique and different to offer. The hard part are discovering what it is and having the courage to move forward into action. I feel like, especially women in the church we grow up. I remember going to young women's and every single Sunday and every single Wednesday being told that you're supposed to be moms and you're supposed to do homemaking stuff and making handouts. And it was just almost like a really competitive environment. Like, who can have like every Sunday, who is going to have the best handout, the best lesson, who is going to have the best examples to share? And so even as a young woman preparing for motherhood in that program, I felt often inadequate and like I couldn't measure up. And quite honestly, I didn't want to have kids for a very long time because of the fact that I had raised my younger siblings. But now I was in this church that was telling me that was my only purpose in life was to grow up, go to college, and if I got married to start having children. I think Crystal's books can help a lot of women be able to understand that you can have balance between being a mom and still being true to who you are and yourself. Because if we're honest, motherhood is not the most rewarding thing in the world. Right out of the gate, you have moments where you look at your kids and you're like, are you sure you're mine? Are you sure that grandma didn't somehow pay someone off to give me the rotten kid? Like, because I was not a very good kid growing up, I feel like sometimes. But yeah, that's just a little bit, I guess, watered down version of my background. And then I've actually since like anytime I have a lot of. I have a really good friend that I grew up with and she called me one day and she was just in tears and she says, I don't understand, like, how is it that I'm doing everything I'm supposed to and I still don't feel like enough. And so I just told her, I said, you need to read this book. And I bought it. I think I bought your book and sent it to like four or five different people. But it's true. She's having some doubts of her own. And I just feel like this would be a safe place for her to be able to feel like she's reading material that is going to relate to her as an LDS person, but also as someone who's struggling into being inadequate. Give her kind of permission to have a breakdown. I feel like that chapter, the Breakdown for the breakthrough. Sometimes we have to go through those moments where we kind of crash and burn and then we can get up and we can start fresh and know where we need to go and how we need to move forward.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] I love it. Thank you. Thank you, Leandra. And I'm inspired by all you're doing, especially with special needs kids. You have your own book to write, I'm guessing.

Guest 2 [00:34:07] Well, I actually have a couple. I have one coming out this summer, but it's more about my little brother that I have a couple brothers that both left the church and ended up taking their own lives. And then that book is dedicated to them. And then I have another one that I'm writing. One of the things I've noticed is I've met a lot of women who still really want to have kind of a Christian faith after leaving the church. They want to be able to still believe in God and Christ and have that relationship with them. But now all of a sudden they have this mentality in their mind that if you don't believe in the church, how could you believe in this? And I did my research and I realized there are so many talks out there that basically tell people if you don't believe in us, you can't really believe in the rest of it. And to me, that kind of reminds me of abusive relationship where someone would say, you know, if I can't have you, no one can have you. And so I've been working with some women. I have a little group called Let Go and Let God Restoring Hope in Christ After Mormonism. And the reason why this is important to me because I have a little 7 year old daughter and she came up to me once, she saw me studying and preparing a work guide for this and she said, mom, why are you doing all this Bible studying stuff? She's like, we only read the Book of Mormon in our church. And it hit me like, even as a child, they realized this is all we focused on. We don't focus on anything else. And then as a mom, that chapter four about what's your purpose? And I realized my purpose is to pave the way for my daughter and my children, to know that it's okay to have your own opinion, to have your own thought process. It's okay to share your experiences and share your story, and especially if you're helping other people and you're giving them a voice and you're giving them a resting place when their heart is aching. And so that's kind of what I've been working on.

Guest 2 [00:36:07] I love it.

Guest 2 [00:36:07] It's been healing for me.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] So you're finding meaning and purpose in writing about your siblings that have passed away and about helping other women find spiritual alternatives to orthodox Mormonism. That's great. Thanks for sharing, Leandra. Let's bring Aaron Johnson in. Aaron, thank you so much for joining us on Mormon Stories.

More Reader Perspectives and Personal Stories

Guest 2 [00:36:34] Hi, can you hear me okay?

John Dehlin [00:36:36] Yeah, yeah. Tell us a little bit about you and what interested you in Crystal's book.

Guest 2 [00:36:43] Well, I first, I didn't even know Crystal until I saw the podcast that

Guest 2 [00:36:48] you did with her and her husband Sean.

John Dehlin [00:36:50] Oh, wow. So kind of new.

Guest 2 [00:36:52] Yeah, kind of new. And I actually figured out that she lives near me in the same area, and our kids actually go to the same school in Southern Utah. In Southern Utah.

Guest 2 [00:37:05] So I.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] So you guys are. Your kids go to the same school. That's amazing.

Guest 2 [00:37:09] Yeah, our kids go to the same school. I actually reached out to Crystal after I read or after I watched the podcast, which I was so touched by. So I reached out to her and just said, you know, I am a post Mormon mom in the area. I know how hard it was for me when I was going through my transition. And, you know, I'm here, I'm an open. I'm open arms, and, you know, anytime you want to talk or connect, we can. So I ended up meeting up with her and a couple other different women, and she asked me to do this. And I had tried to find her book at the Costco, and it was. I couldn't find it. So she actually got me one of a copy of her book, and I loved it. I thought it was incredible. She did such an incredible job. And so I left the church. My husband and I left the church almost five years ago. And, you know, your podcast, John, helped a lot with that and everything that we went through. And so I had a lot of admiration for Crystal and doing what she was doing, especially being a big influencer in the Instagram world and podcasts. And she's a well known name, especially with a lot of women in Utah. I know a lot of other states as well, but she's a big name here in Utah for a lot of women. And I know that coming out with her faith transition, it could have been so debilitating, and she's just done an amazing job. And I just thought this book really was everything I needed right at this time. You know, everything just kind of comes together and I felt like Crystal and I were able to meet at the perfect time. And this book came into my life and I love it. I'm a mom of four kids and I, you know, was married by 18. Typical mom.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Wow, that's young.

Guest 2 [00:39:02] That's so young.

Guest 2 [00:39:03] I was married a few weeks before turning 18, and then I just knew I needed to have babies right away. I don't even think I talked to my husband about it. I just said, okay, well, we need to have babies right away. And I was pregnant two months after our honeymoon.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] Oh, my goodness.

Guest 2 [00:39:20] And I was 19 and I had my first son when I was 20, and I was. By the time he was 5 months old, I was pregnant with my second.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] Oh, my goodness.

Guest 2 [00:39:31] Yeah, so. And after, after my second was born, my second boy, we waited three years and added two more, which are two little girls, but we have four kids very close together. I'm an extremely busy, overwhelmed mom all the time. And going through a faith transition and a faith crisis about five years ago was earth shattering. It was earth shattering for my husband and me and for everything that we were going through and trying to realize if that was what was best for our children and our family. And that was a really hard decision to make and it was really heavy for both of us. So I loved reading Crystal's book. I could sense in her words, when things were starting to change for her. I actually text her and said, I guess I don't know if your faith transition was before, during, or after this book, but I can see a change in certain things that you are writing about, certain things that you're talking about. And she kind of explained that it was more in the middle. There were so many good messages in her book that really just make us want. Make. Made me personally want to just be a better person in my own mind and my own being so that I can be a better mother, so that I can be a better wife, and that I also need to be better And I need to be better so that I can be a better person to spread that onto my family, which I think is huge. I think that's the most important thing in being a mom and a parent in general.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Yeah, that's its own now that we think about it. We've talked about being a balanced mom from the standpoint of having a career. Leandra talked about having special needs kids. But being a mom going through a faith crisis is its own event. Begging for balance isn't really was.

Guest 2 [00:41:30] It was so hard. And you know, my husband and I, we left the church after finding out a lot of information.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] How many years into your marriage were you?

Guest 2 [00:41:38] Okay, so eight, around eight years we've been married.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:41:43] Yeah, all four kids.

Guest 2 [00:41:48] None of my kids had turned eight yet. I had a son who was seven and he was going to be turning eight soon. And after learning everything that we learned and really realizing that my husband and I both didn't believe in the teachings anymore of the church, our biggest concern was is this what's right for our kids? And you know, living where we do, living in Utah, it is extremely hard to leave this religion. It's really hard to be any other religion or non religious in such a high populated Mormon religious community. And so our biggest, one of our biggest concerns was will this be the right decision for our children and will it help them or will it hinder them in their lives? And so we thought a lot about that and it just came down to this is what we know we need to do for them and it's going to be the best decision. And we've had to deal with that as they've gotten older. We didn't baptize any of our four children and we are very happy about that decision. We have no regrets on that. I feel like it kind of came into my life. Like I said, things come in at certain times for a reason. And I felt like my faith transition happened at the right time for our family because I never felt like I needed to force my 8 year old child to make a decision that he was too young to make.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] How have you balanced being what have been some keys or some tips to having four kids under the age of eight and being a wife and navigating a faith crisis. Do you have any tips or advice for women who are trying to juggle that kind of scenario?

Guest 2 [00:43:29] Well, I feel like you have to be very aware like a lot of what Crystal's book talks about. You have to be confident in your own mind and your own thoughts. I remember there were so many days where I would sit and study and read and read and read for hours on end. And I felt like maybe I wasn't giving my kids the attention that they needed because I was going through such a severe crisis at the time. But I spent so much of that time also really loving on my kids. Like, I really felt like I needed to show them that I was going through this really hard thing, but that I was doing it for the potent. For the potential outcome of my family. And so also, I have an incredibly supportive husband that we were going through this at the same time. But my husband's always been a really great dad. He never, you know, he always wants to come home, and the first thing he wants to do is spend time with the kids. And I'm really lucky in that way. You know, he tries to get off work as early as he can to get home and to see us. And so we do a lot of co parenting together. There's not a lot of his role, her role. And so there's a lot of co parenting. And co parenting through a faith crisis was extremely difficult, extremely hard. But I felt like I did a lot of reading, a lot of research on how to be a better person and a better mother, Just not within the religion, just in general, you know, which a lot of women don't really understand how to do. Especially raised in an orthodox religion like the Mormon religion is.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] Absolutely. Well, Crystal, let's bring you back in. Leandra looks like she may have had to drop off for a second. Do you have a question for Holly or Aaron or for both of them? What's it like as an author to have your readers come on and talk about the book you wrote?

Crystal Escobar [00:45:33] It's very flattering. I love hearing you guys refer to it. It's just kind of fun because when you. When you put it, publish a book, you don't always get to hear the thoughts that are going through people's minds as they're reading it. So it is a treat for me to hear other mom's perspectives. And I think I would just love to hear, you know, like, in closing, maybe hear any other parts that maybe you highlighted or a part that really stood out to you, because I think it's fun to just to know that.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] Yeah. So, Holly, if you were gonna. As we're kind of starting to draw a little bit towards the close, and it's been so fun to have you and Holly and Erin and Leandra, all of you on, to talk about what Crystal's book has meant to you. What's one tip or thing you've learned or piece of advice you would offer? Want to be balanced moms? How about you, Holly? Let's start with you.

Guest 2 [00:46:33] I just think for me, that to answer Crystal's question about another part, maybe that stood out, and this would answer your question, too, John. The chapter on. Is it called. I think it's chapter 11. Stop. Don't worry about being liked or something. Okay. So that's hard for me because I used to try to be the Pinterest mom, and Crystal talked about that when you were first interviewing her. But let's be real. Nobody can find a deep connection with the Pinterest mom.

John Dehlin [00:47:02] Right.

Guest 2 [00:47:03] I just think that I just came to this point in my life where things in the church did not resonate anymore. I was finding more fulfillment in other areas. And then when I found out it was not absolutely true in the ways I thought it was, I just knew that I needed to move on to other things.

Guest 2 [00:47:23] And.

Guest 2 [00:47:23] And the risk was that I was going to not be liked by a lot of people in my life.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] That's hard.

Guest 2 [00:47:31] It's very hard. But this is. I think she refers to this as emotional adulthood. And, you know, you just come to this point where you just. It's worth the risk to you because it's about integrity and honesty, and you kind of weed people out that. That love you for you or don't love you for you. They love you for your belief system or they love you for who you are at your core. And so I was. I got to the point where I was really just willing to take that risk. And this is my first time outside of family and friends and small groups, being really public. So this is a little bit hard for me. I am shaking a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] You are doing great.

Guest 2 [00:48:14] Thank you. But I think that concept of just not worrying what everybody thinks is really one that I've had to embrace and that I'm learning about every day. You have to find yourself in this journey, and it's about growing, and part of that is letting go of the image that you have built up over your life. And so I really love that part of the book.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] I love it, and I struggle with that, too. Holly. I really resonate with wanting to be liked and then just realizing that almost the more I try and please people, the more of a mess I make. And so if you're not going to be able to be liked by everybody, you may as well just be your best self. And that really is a nice sifting process. You find out who your real friends are and those friendships that remain. It's almost like Margi always likes to say this. She got it from others that saying no to some things gives you the space to say yes to others. And as you lose relationships in your life that you valued at one time or that meant a lot to you, there are holes that open up from that. But the benefit is those holes become places or space for new friendships to develop. It could actually be two or three times more meaningful and fulfilling than any of the friendships you lost. But you had to say no to those other relationships to be able to make room for the new ones.

Guest 2 [00:49:47] That's so true. And I think for me, it's allowed me to become more emotionally intimate with my children. I stressed for nights and nights about telling them where I was, and once I did, it just opened up the doors for more honest communication. And it's been hard, but we've connected in a deeper way. And I've connected with my husband in a deeper way. I've connected with other people in a deeper way. And I think that I also have to realize sometimes people just need time to digest new information. And I want to make it clear that the people that do love me for me, I'm really grateful for them. But by golly, not being liked and not having to, you know, just letting go of not being liked by everyone, it's kind of freeing, too. It gives you more space for more.

John Dehlin [00:50:43] It totally does. I can't imagine anyone not liking you, Ollie, but I get it. But you're so delightful and lovely to come on Mormon Stories. It's great to see you here. I could tell you've got your own story, so we may have to have you back to tell your story. How's that?

Guest 2 [00:51:00] Thank you. Well, I will say Mormon Stories was my saving grace during many, many dark nights. So you know that I love you and I love your stories, and they were hard, many of them, to hear, but they were my. They were what got me through many lonely nights. And they still do.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] So thank you, Holly. Well, all the best to you and your wonderful family, and let's find a way to get you back on. How's that?

Crystal Escobar [00:51:22] Thank you, Holly.

Guest 2 [00:51:23] Thanks, Crystal.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] Erin, give us one moment, one nugget gem of wisdom from Crystal's book or not as a way to kind of close out for today.

Guest 2 [00:51:36] Well, I just have to say what Holly was just saying, I thought was so. I agree with what she was saying within Crystal's book, that feeling. I was just talking to my husband about this. Before I came on this podcast with you guys, that it's really hard to not be liked. But like Crystal said in her book, there's always going to be someone that doesn't like you. Not for any specific reason, but it could just be because you don't mesh with that person. And that's totally natural and normal. But to feel like someone or jealous

John Dehlin [00:52:07] or they're envious of you. Right.

Guest 2 [00:52:09] Yeah, it could be a number of things. And so to feel accepting of the fact that not everyone's going to like you is a really hard pill to swallow. And I don't like that thought. I really, you know, I'm a people pleaser. I want people to like me. But if I. I have come to the point, though, that what I. What I realized is if people don't like me, that's okay, because not every. There's some people I don't like, and I can't explain why. I can't pinpoint it. It's just a thing. Not all people mesh, you know, and like what you were just saying, getting rid of those relationships opens the doors and the space for new relationships that usually are, you know, 10 times better than the fake relationship that was. So. I loved that. But I had. There were a couple of things in her book that just really stood out to me. There were a couple chapters. Discovering your mission and purpose was a huge chapter for me. And there was something that I kind of marked on here. It says, sometimes we get so caught up in achieving the big goals that we forget what is most important. The one thing that you can do is be a mother to your children, a wife to your husband, a daughter to your parents. So when it comes to figuring out your purpose and your mission in life, it must start with the ones you love the most, and then it can trickle out into the rest of the world. I love that because I think that we can all agree that family is so important. And especially when, you know, you're going through a faith transition and you're dealing with eternal families and that subject that is really, really hard for a lot of people when they leave the church, it's all about love. That is all it is. And even my parents who have heartache over me and my husband leaving the church, the love that I have for them, and I know now the love that they have for me is, I want to say unconditional, but there's, you know, there's a lot of stipulations to an unconditional love, but I feel it's an unconditional love for my parents. And I feel like it's trickled down to me. And my unconditional love for my husband and children is trickled down into them. And I think then it spreads into other relationships that we have. But I think family is the most important for where our love needs to be focused. So that was a huge one for me that I loved.

Gifts of a Faith Transition and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [00:54:31] I'll just piggyback. I. It absolutely one of the gifts of a Mormon faith crisis. And we talk about this on the podcast. The gift of the Mormon Faith crisis is you learn how to build relationships on a new foundation, which is on common values, unconditional love. And of course, no love is unconditional. So it's unconditional love with an asterisk, which means you. You fulfill a basic level of respect and commitment to the same sorts of things. But after that, you can be more vulnerable, you can be more open, you can share your feelings, and you develop this deeper intimacy that becomes contagious. And it gets to the point where you don't want any fake, superficial relationships anymore. And it's like this positive spillover or bleed over that can actually enhance all your relationships when it started with just a few. And it really can lead to a transformative perspective where all your relationships get upgraded just from a faith crisis and one or two relationships having to go through it. So I love that.

Guest 2 [00:55:47] Yeah. And I definitely agree with that. And what Crystal was saying earlier, how there are a lot of relationships in the community for women, the community of the LDS Church. We have all these relationships with all these other women and people in our wards and in our neighborhoods, but no one really goes deeper. No one ever goes past the surface level. And I feel like after you go through something like a faith crisis, you really do find people who are willing to go onto that deeper level with you. And your friendships that you create are deeper. They are like even just with Crystal, I mean, Crystal and I met just a few weeks ago, and I can already feel a deeper connection where we're able to talk about things that are really hard and that are things that we've both really struggled with. And it's harder when you're in a type of a community with a church or religion where you feel like you can't really be 100% vulnerable and 100% open and honest with everything you're going through. So I agree, John, with what you're saying. Those relationships become deeper, more important, and they just. They matter more when you've gone through something, some huge life change, like what We've gone through.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] No one gets us like post nor. No one gets a post Mormon like another post Mormon. Right.

Guest 2 [00:56:58] I agree.

Guest 2 [00:57:01] I definitely agree.

Guest 2 [00:57:02] So there was one other thing on her book, and then that. And then that can be my turn being done. But so in the chapter the should I have another baby? Which resonated a lot with me because our decision to not having any more children was a tough one. But four kids, you know, I've got four kids really close. So it was probably the smartest decision to not. But I loved this. That she said in this chapter, again, this is a reminder that the wrong choice doesn't exist. In the end, it will all come together exactly in the way it was supposed to. You can't avoid pain or sorrow. They are an important part of life. We must experience the bad in order to appreciate the good. So stop choosing confusion. Make a choice and go with it. You can always turn back. Nothing is a waste of time. It is what it is.

Guest 2 [00:57:49] You move on.

Guest 2 [00:57:49] You keep going. Lives are great big puzzles. The pieces by themselves make absolutely no sense. But little by little, if you connect the pieces, you begin to see a beautiful masterpiece. Trust that everything will all make sense in the end and you will find meaning in every choice, every mistake, and every detour. I love it. Yeah, that was one of the best.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] All right, well, Aaron Johnson, same thing that I said to Holly. I'm quite sure that you've got your own story, so maybe we'll have to have you back on Mormon stories. How would that be?

Guest 2 [00:58:20] Thank you.

Guest 2 [00:58:21] Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate the invite. And this was fun.

Guest 2 [00:58:23] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] Are you in southern Utah?

Guest 2 [00:58:25] I am. Yep.

Guest 2 [00:58:26] Southern Utah.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] Kristal, we'll have to do like a Mormon stories wanna be balanced mom kind of retreat in southern Utah.

Crystal Escobar [00:58:35] I know. That'd be so fun.

Guest 2 [00:58:37] I know a lot of women who would come.

John Dehlin [00:58:39] Yeah, let's do that. We'll have like a. Or a. Like a women's empowerment retreat or something.

Crystal Escobar [00:58:45] Yeah, that'd be so fun.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] And I'll just sit in the back and I'll serve.

Guest 2 [00:58:49] I'll do food.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] I'll serve the drinks.

Crystal Escobar [00:58:51] I'll clean our men servants. You and Sean can be our manservants.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] We'll make the food. Yeah. Sean and I'll be the man servants. Holly, what do you think? Are you going to come?

Guest 2 [00:59:00] I'll be there. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] All right. You heard it first here on Mormon Stories, woman's retreat. Sean and John as the manservants, either in Draper or in southern Utah, coming to a town near you Soon. Crystal, anything? We're going to give you the final word. Anything else you want to say?

Crystal Escobar [00:59:23] No, I just. I genuinely appreciate this time to talk about my book. It feels really exciting too have this like 10 year goal to finally be manifested and then to hear people who have read it. You know, knowing that people are reading it and hearing what they have to say about it is just really satisfying and fulfilling for me. So I just appreciate this opportunity, John. And of course, I've told you this before, that your podcast is where it all began for me. So I just want to thank you again for that.

John Dehlin [00:59:56] My pleasure. Tiffany Johnson Hatch writes, she wants to come to our retreat. We've already got our first attendee. And she writes, I'll teach yoga at the retreat. It's my religion. So not only do we have our. What's that, Holly, you do too, right, Holly?

Guest 2 [01:00:13] I was going to say there must be yoga, so she needs to come.

Guest 2 [01:00:17] Don't you teach too, Holly? Thinking about.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] Okay, wait, Holly, do you teach yoga?

Guest 2 [01:00:24] I might be. I'm going to be doing a teacher training this fall.

John Dehlin [01:00:28] Okay, but you do yoga.

Guest 2 [01:00:29] I do yoga.

Guest 2 [01:00:30] I do hockey.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] And Erin, what'd you say?

Guest 2 [01:00:33] I said, Tiffany Hatch, who commented that was one of the first women I thought of in my mind that I knew would be there.

John Dehlin [01:00:40] Okay, wait. Kate writes, I want to go to the retreat, but I'm not a mom. What do you guys want to say to Kate?

Guest 2 [01:00:45] It doesn't matter. Are you a dog mom?

Guest 2 [01:00:48] A plant mom?

Guest 2 [01:00:48] A kid mom? You're a mom.

Crystal Escobar [01:00:50] We're all moms in some way, I'm sure.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] How about just women empowerment? It doesn't need to be moms.

Guest 2 [01:00:57] Yeah, women are moms of their book collections, their jewelry collections. We all have something that makes us feel like that. So I think it's amazing. Women empowerment.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] How about women's or moms of themselves sometimes?

Crystal Escobar [01:01:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] All right, well, that's super fun. Well, let's do it. So, Crystal, it's a delight. Again, the book is My Life is a Wannabe Balanced mom by Crystal Escobar. It's available apparently at Deseret Book and at Costco. I'm sure it's on Amazon. And if you're wanting to be a balanced mom or just a balanced human, it's worth checking out. So, Aaron Johnson, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. Take care. I hope to meet you in person sometime soon.

Guest 2 [01:01:43] Sounds good.

Guest 2 [01:01:44] Bye.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] You're awesome. It's such a delight to have you on.

Guest 2 [01:01:48] Thanks for. Thanks for having me, guys.

Crystal Escobar [01:01:51] Thank you, girls. I Appreciate you guys.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] And Crystal, you keep up the good work. Tell us about your YouTube channel, your blog, how do people follow what you do? Your Instagram channel. How do people follow you?

Crystal Escobar [01:02:04] Yeah, everywhere. You can find me everywhere. Under Wannabe Balanced, we have our podcast called Wannabe Balance and then on YouTube and Instagram. And my website is wannabebalanced.com and then just wanted to say we'll be seeing you this weekend at the Thrive conference. We're so excited about it. Cannot wait. Thrive.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] Yeah, we're stoked. We're doing a conference that's sold out 300 people, Salt Lake City, June 7th through 9th, healing and joy After Mormonism. And it's just going to be a bunch of amazing speakers and we're going to do more Thrive conferences as well. So thanks for that shout out. And Crystal, you and Sean will be talking about navigating a marriage and keeping balance in a marriage. And I wish I could get more people to come, but we're sold out. So you guys will just have to stay tuned@mormonfaithcrisis.com events. Look for more events in the coming months and years ahead. But thanks again, Crystal. Hope to see you back on Mormon Stories.

Guest [01:03:10] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. One is a song by singer songwriter Mindy Gledhill off of her new album Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com

Guest 2 [01:03:45] but they're all the same to me when we worship love and though we may speak in different times May our hearts be sewn together when our hearts feel so undone to our pieces become. One life together Mind the time while it takes we're all here

Guest 2 [01:04:39] in this

Guest 2 [01:04:40] moment let's unwrap it like it's the most beautiful thing.

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