Introducing Newell Bringhurst and the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your co Host for today, Dr. John Dehlin. And as always, as of recent, we are so thrilled to have with us in studio Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah, welcome back.

Carah Burrell [00:00:16] Hey. Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Good to have you.

Carah Burrell [00:00:18] Yeah, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] We, you, we are in store for a treat today. I'm just going to tell you this is a name, Carah, that you and I think our listening audience should all know. But in. But I'm guessing there are some people who don't know this guest. Our guest for today is sort of epic historian Newell Bringhurst. Hey, Noel.

Newell Bringhurst [00:00:40] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Thanks for joining us.

Newell Bringhurst [00:00:43] Well, it's a pleasure to be here and I hope we can have a good productive dialogue discussion.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] I think we will. So for those who have no idea who Newell is, Newell is. Newell has been engaged in Mormon history and Mormon studies for multiple decades. He is the author of several books. There's a, there's a new biography coming out on Harold B. Lee. He's done a biography on Brigham Young. He has done several books on African Americans or blacks in the church. And his, his academic and his historical credentials are long. What, what was your first book, Noel?

Newell Bringhurst [00:01:28] Saints, Slaves and Blacks, which was published in 1981. It was derivative out of my doctoral dissertation that I did as a graduate student at the University of California, Davis, uc.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] Davis, yeah. And I met new, you know, probably in 2000, I would say 2005, 2006 at, you know, some of my first sunstones. And Newell has been attending Sunstone for many, many years as well. I was reminded of Newell's great work, recent interactions with, with historian Matt Harris, because Matt collaborated with you on that book about the gospel topics essays, Is that right, Noel?

Newell Bringhurst [00:02:06] Yes, that's correct.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Yeah. And also you collaborated with Darren Smith on another book about blacks in the priesthood.

Newell Bringhurst [00:02:15] If I'm, if I'm, we looked at the, what had happened within the church subsequent to the 1978 revelation is actually an anthology. We had recruited a number of scholars and experts in the field, including the late great Armand Moss. And it was a variety of people that we had recruited for that volume. And it was a wonderful collaborative effort. It gave me a chance to not only work with Darren Smith, but to get to know him and to get to know his story, because I had never had that much interaction with actual blacks, especially blacks who had joined the church. And so it was a wonderful experience in working with Darren.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] I love it. So that should give you a sense for Newell's cv, how many books in Total. Noel?

Newell Bringhurst [00:03:12] Well, I have actually authored alone or in collaborative with other people, eight books, a total of 13, 14 books. A number of the other books are anthologies that collected essays and edited works. But as far as authoring, it'd be about. It's funny how I can't remember the exact number, but it's, it's, it's around eight, seven or eight books that I've actually written completely.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] That's so great. Well, today we are focusing on one of Newell's many books and the book is entitled Fawn McKay A Biographer's Life by Newell Bringhurst. It was published in 1999 by the University of Oklahoma Press. And you know, Newell is 79 and there are a lot of episodes that we need to do with Neil, but this is, I'm cherry picking the one that I want to do first because I believe that there's probably no historian that has had a more significant impact on not just Mormon history but also on, on the Mormon church than Fawn McKay Brody. Fawn McKay Brody was Mormon prophet David O.

Fawn Brodie and No Man Knows My History

John Dehlin [00:04:33] McKay's niece. She was a woman seeking to, to do history back in the days when there weren't a lot of women doing history. And she wrote, in my opinion, what is possibly the, still the definitive biography on Joseph Smith. Now of course, Dan Vogel has written an amazing biography. Of course Richard Bus has, has written Rough Stone Rolling and you know, biographies are going to continue, but I just don't think it's probably the most important book ever written in Mormon history. Now Newell, would you agree with that or would you disagree with that?

Newell Bringhurst [00:05:08] Well, I would certainly agree that it is among the most important books. I mean, there are other studies that, like Leonard Arrington's Great Basin Kingdom, which would be a seminal book, and Juanita Brooks is book on the Mountain Meadow Massacre. But if you were to include it in the top rung, Fawn Brody's no Man My History is an extremely definitive work and I would certainly agree with you that it still remains among the most important books. It has never gone out of print since its initial publication back in 1945. And that's pretty phenomenal when you consider a book has stayed in print for the span of my lifetime, over 75 years, the book has never gone out of print.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Yeah, and the fact that, that Fawn Brody wrote that book as David O. McKay's niece, but as a woman in the 40s, you know, and if you think about, you know, take your pick Mormon Think or CES letter or Letter from My Wife or the whole Mormon Stories Catalog whatever, you know, aggregation you want to make of sort of the, the most important historical elements that would allow you to understand the life of Joseph Smith and what happened in those early years of the church. 80 plus percent can be found in no Man Knows My History. So she's talking about the treasure digging, she's talking about the, the stone in the hat, she's talking about the polygamy, the polyandry, she's talking about the Kirtland bank scandal.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] She's talking about issues with, you know, the priesthood restoration, the three witnesses, the first vision, like, take any of the issues that cause Mormons to look at Joseph Smith's story with a little bit more scrutiny. She's covering all that in her book back in 1945. And so we today are going to just have Newell talk to us about the life of Fon Brody.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] What, what, what her life was before she wrote the book, what her experiences were writing the book, what the reactions were to the book. And I don't want to, you know, spoil the story, but of course she was excommunicated for writing the book. And then she went on to have a really significant career as a historian at ucla, I believe, including uncovering before there was genetic evidence that Sally Hemings, Thomas Jefferson's slave, fathered children with, with Thomas Jefferson. And she did that just through the collection of historical documents. I think she also did a biography on Richard Nixon. So, I mean, she's just, she's a legend. You're a legend, Newell, and, and Fawn Brody's a legend. So I'm just giddy today on Mormon Stories podcast.

Newell Bringhurst [00:08:06] Yes, I, I, I would say that you have covered her, not only her career as a historian of Mormon history who had a seminal effect, but as a historian generally, particularly with the Thomas Jefferson book. That really put her on the map. The Thomas Jefferson biography really put her on the map as a historian of national renown. I mean, she appeared on network television and NBC was even projecting a series of a miniseries based on her Thomas Jefferson book back in the 70s, a project that never quite got off the ground for various reasons, but they were willing to put up thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars to do this miniseries.

Newell Bringhurst [00:09:04] And the fact it never got off the ground was the controversy that she had created with the Sally Hemings Thomas Jefferson relations. The Jefferson establishment at Monticello refused to allow them access to use that as a setting for the miniseries. And so it dissipated. It never happened. But that gives you a sense of her national renown. I mean, that she not only kind of created a lot of waves within the Mormon establishment with no man Knows My history, but created equally turbulence within the Jefferson, so called Jefferson establishment, who said, why would this awful woman write this speculative book about Thomas Jefferson? And they refused to acknowledge the fact that Thomas Jefferson had indeed fathered children through his black slave mistress. And so her Thomas Jefferson biography is still considered among the most significant books on our third president.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Yeah. Yep. So she's kind of a sacred cow slayer a little bit. And so let's jump in. And one of the things that I think is probably just worth mentioning off the top is also that she received a lot of adversity, kind of animosity by Mormon apologists for. For writing her book on Joseph Smith and by, you know, us historians for criticizing Thomas Jefferson. So I hopefully we can get into that as well. Maybe even Hugh Nibley's response to Fawn Brody, which was called, no, ma', am, that's not history. So we'll get into all that. I really want to focus on kind of sticking with the timeline if we can. No. So how do we want to start talking about Fawn Brody's life?

Fawn Brodie's Early Life and Character Formation

Newell Bringhurst [00:11:02] Well, I would start from her youth and just what shaped her character. And that is one of the things I really tried to do in my biography of a biographer. And she grew up in Huntsville, Utah, the same town that David O. McKay, the much beloved Mormon president.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] That's like Ogden and Eden, right?

Newell Bringhurst [00:11:27] Yeah, Ogden Canyon. You go up Ogden Canyon. I don't know if you've ever been to the old McKay home as kind of a kind of a local shrine, a local tourist attraction in Huntsville. And it's ironic, I find it very ironic that one of the most beloved Mormon leaders, people within mormonism, David O. McKay and Fawn Brody, were born and grew up in the same four walls in the same home.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Same home.

Newell Bringhurst [00:11:58] Same home. Same exact home in Huntsville, the old Huntsville homestead. Homestead. And it's still there, I guess the family, I think, still owns it, the McKay family. And they do conduct tours. Anybody who's interested in visiting that home. It's significant in and of itself as a tourist site. The home of Both David O. McKay and Fawn Brody.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] I love it.

Newell Bringhurst [00:12:24] And yeah, the juxtaposition. I found that most arresting. Sure. And. And anyway, she was born to the younger brother of David O. McKay, Thomas E. McKay, who himself became a general authority. He was ordained to as an assistant to the 12 in 1942. And. Because three years before her book was published. Three years before her book was published. Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] Okay. We're getting ahead of ourselves, but that's cool.

Newell Bringhurst [00:12:57] But anyway, she grew up. She describes her childhood as an idyllic childhood. She even reminisced about this in a very compelling reminiscence. And she grew up in this home. They lived in what she described as genteel poverty. They, they had this big home, and it was actually a home that was shared with the rest of the McKay family, because after David O. McKay came of age and then Thomas McKay raised his family in that home, David O. McKay, you know, had moved on to Salt Lake by that time, or down into Ogden.

Newell Bringhurst [00:13:44] But anyway, she grew up in this home. And along with her siblings, she had a brother, Thomas McKay, named after his father, and three sisters, one older sister, Flora, they always referred to him. I mean, that's interesting. They named them Fawn and Flora.

Newell Bringhurst [00:14:08] Fawn, her older sister was Flora. And she came along and so they always, you know, they kind of joked about that, that we're Fauna and Flora. And anyway, she had two young sisters, Barbara and Louise, who came along later, and Thomas, her brother, also came along later, a little bit younger than Fawn. So Fawn was the second child in a family of five children.

Newell Bringhurst [00:14:37] And it was kind of a hardscrabble childhood. Even though they lived in this big, spacious home, I mean, the home itself, it looks like they would have prosperity, but as I say, it was genteel poverty. And so they lived in less than ideal circumstances financially. And whereas the rest of her aunts and uncles, she had her. There was David O. McKay, of course, who became the celebrity in the family by the fact that he was ordained an apostle when he was very young.

Newell Bringhurst [00:15:18] And he was looked at as the kind of the celebrity. But there were the four aunts. She had four aunts who were very strong willed individuals who. So the house was not actually owned by Thomas McKay, it was actually owned by the family jointly. And Thomas McKay and his family were the occupants of the house and expected to keep it up and try to provide as. As well as they could with the farmland that they farmed out there. But it was actually controlled by what was called the McKay Family Corporation. So she never really, the family now never felt like they really had a home of their own. And I think that affected how Fawn viewed her family, how she viewed just her situation.

Growing Up Mormon: Faith and Family Influences

John Dehlin [00:16:14] Okay, what can you tell us about when she's growing up? What can you tell us kind of about her faith?

Newell Bringhurst [00:16:23] Well, she.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] And, and, and to what extent? I, I guess I. There's a couple questions there. What was her faith like? Growing up, what would she have known or learned about Joseph Smith just growing up as a Mormon, I'm guessing, in the 20s and 30s in a place like Ogden. And then what would have led to her wanting to study Joseph Smith more in depth?

Newell Bringhurst [00:16:47] Well, it's a long story. But anyway, when she was growing up, she was very strong, believing Latter Day Saint. I mean, that was one of the things that surprised me. I mean, she. From her childhood all the way into her adolescence, she was a strong, faithful, believing Latter Day Saint. In interviewing family members, as I, as I put together the biography, I was able to interview all of Fawn's siblings. And without a doubt, the consensus was that she was the strongest, most faithful, most believing Latter Day Saint.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] It's always the ones that care most who end up. It's often the ones who care most about the church and about their faith that want to know the real history, because if it's true and if it's real, then you want to know everything you can about it. So that actually fits the profile of many of the listeners to Mormon Stories podcast, honestly.

Newell Bringhurst [00:17:45] Yeah. And the other things that shaped her character besides, you know, growing up in a very devout family, of course, Thomas McKay himself was very strong and unwavering in his religious beliefs, as was the younger brother. And, and, but it's interesting, there was a little bit of cognitive dissonance because her mother, who was also named Fawn, Fawn Brimhall, was less of a believer. I mean, her father, I mean, she comes out of kind of Mormon royalty because her, her grandfather was George Brimhall, who was president of Brigham Young University.

Newell Bringhurst [00:18:29] And that, that, that, that was kind of an interesting thing. And George Brimhall was kind of a. He was an academic. He was more open minded and that. And got into a little bit of trouble as president of Brigham Young. And ultimately he committed suicide.

Newell Bringhurst [00:18:45] He, I guess, had problems with depression and he had some health problems, which led to his suicide. And that was, of course, a shattering experience for Fawn and the rest of the family. When. And likewise, Fawn's mother had strong, you know, she had issues with depression, and she ultimately killed herself. And so there was a history of suicide within the family.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] So as you said, George Brimhall.

Newell Bringhurst [00:19:20] George Brimhall.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] So George Brimhall was president of Brigham Young University. Fawn Brody's dad.

Newell Bringhurst [00:19:26] Fawn Brody's. Yeah, grandfather.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] Grandfather. And he died by suicide.

Newell Bringhurst [00:19:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Okay. And do you know what, how old Fawn Brody was when I, I, it

Newell Bringhurst [00:19:36] was, she was a teenager.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] Fun.

Newell Bringhurst [00:19:38] Yeah. She, she would Have. Let me see. She would have been. Yeah, she would have been a teenager.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] So Fawn Brody was a teenager when her mom died by suicide.

Newell Bringhurst [00:19:46] That was later. That was when she was an adult. That came. That came.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Okay, so Fawn was a teenager when her grandfather died by suicide.

Newell Bringhurst [00:19:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] Okay. Wow. Well, that's.

Newell Bringhurst [00:19:55] Yeah. So there was a history of depression and suicide within the Brody family. And so Fawn herself dealt with issues of depression throughout her life. She went through. She actually went through psychoanalysis later in life dealing with her problems of depression and other issues. So she was, at the same time, she was extremely brilliant. She was a precocious child. I mean, she entered college when she was still in her teenage years. She went to school. She was actually enrolled with her older sister, Flora, who was two years older. When she was only four or five years old, she started first grade. And so by the time she got into college, she was still in her early to mid teens when she started, when she started high school and then college when she was. She finished her master's degree. When she was 20 years old, she had completed a master's degree.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] Was that from University of Chicago?

Newell Bringhurst [00:21:07] That was at the University of Chicago the same year she was married, 1936. She had finished. So she was, she was an extremely bright, precocious child and she was made, you know, the family was very much aware of her. They showed her off with her precocity, with her, you know, she got recite poetry and at the same time, though, she was a very obedient child. She says, I was a model child growing up because there were all these rumors that she was a difficult child and that she was always rebellious when no man knows my history came out. And here she was a model, obedient child and a strong believing Latter Day Saint all the way up through her early teenage years, up until she. Almost all of her teenage years got it.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Do you have a sense for. Let's just say she went to the equivalent of seminary or Sunday school during her time period. Again, we're talking the 20s and 30s, I'm guessing. What would, what would the average Utah Mormon have learned about Joseph Smith? Think about all the things that now are in the gospel topics essays, all the controversies, all the things that cause people to question. Part of me thinks that all of that would have been hidden from someone in the 20s and 30s, but there's another part of me that thinks they would have known all that and that it's been buried since kind of Harold B. Lee and correlation comes out in the. In the 60s and 70s. And so what would Fawn Brody have known about Joseph Smith and his problematic history before doing any of her research? What would her impressions? She likely had been she would have

First Encounters with Joseph Smith's Polygamy

Newell Bringhurst [00:22:52] known nothing about polygamy. In fact, she says that the first time she found out or heard that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy was when they were on an eastern tour, when she was involved in debate, when she was at Weber College, which at that time was a church junior college. Her first college education. First two years of college were at Weber Junior College, which was a true church run college run by the church. And so she was, you know, exposed in her classes to Joseph Smith that they didn't bring up the topic of his polygamy. Of course. I mean, that was being really not brought forth.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] So let me just mention a couple things. So, like the treasure digging in the stone in the hat. Would she have learned that up through high school? Yes, sir. I mean, we'll just do it. No, she wouldn't have known about that.

Newell Bringhurst [00:23:51] Yeah, she wouldn't have learned about the treasure hunting. She would have learned about.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] She would not have learned.

Newell Bringhurst [00:23:57] She would not have learned. She would have learned about him, you know, the standard story about the first vision and the subsequent bringing forth of the golden plate. She would have learned about the miraculous aspects of the Joseph Smith story.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] So she would have known about the multiple versions of the first vision?

Newell Bringhurst [00:24:16] No, she, she. That, that, that came much later.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] Okay, okay. And would, Would she have. Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds like she would have gotten a really correlated whitewash kind of Joseph Fielding Smith version of Mormon history. Is that.

Newell Bringhurst [00:24:31] Well, that was, that was being taught throughout the church. I mean, it was being taught in the church when I was growing up as a, as a Latter Day Saint in the 50s. I mean, it, you, you. That, that even after no man knows my history came out, you know, you just didn't talk about that book or that woman.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] Right. What about Joseph Smith being a Mason and getting the temple ceremony from the Masons? Would she have none of that? She wouldn't have known any of that. Okay, so she would have grown up with the correlated whitewashed, Joseph Feeling Smith version of Mormon history.

Newell Bringhurst [00:25:04] Yeah, she would have grown up with what was being taught and authorized at that time. And it was interesting because the first time she heard indications that Joseph Smith had practiced polygamy was, I said, when they went on a debate tour and they stopped off in Independence and it was brought up by a member of what was then the rlds community of Christ, confronted with what do you think of the idea that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and she said she was flirmux. She said what? I'd never heard that. You know, it was just like kind of a slap in the face. It was sort of like with my own story.

Newell Bringhurst [00:25:52] I never heard about the church practicing polygamy until I got into junior high. I mean, I grew up in a, in a similar small town as Fawn Brody and, and going to Sunday school, going to church, they, they, they, they never talked about Joseph Smith's polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] So sticking with the timeline, let's, let's do middle school and high school first. Is there anything that would have established cracks in her testimony up through high school before. Okay, okay, okay. So up through high school, graduating high school, she was a faithful orthodox Latter Day Saint whose graduate grandpa died by suicide, who experienced some depression, but really only had a whitewashed, correlated version understanding of Mormon history.

Newell Bringhurst [00:26:38] Yeah, yeah, pretty much the what was being taught within the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] So when did her testimony start? When did she start becoming curious? And if it's this debate thing, if that's the introduction start, if you don't mind, start into when she would have started developing curiosity about the, the actual history of Joseph Smith and, or starting to question her orthodox traditional faith?

Newell Bringhurst [00:27:03] Well, it probably started a little bit at, at the University of Utah. That's her undergraduate. Yeah, that was, that was her, her last two years. She went her first two years at Weber College.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] Okay, that's where, but that's where she debated.

Newell Bringhurst [00:27:15] That's where she debated and, and was, you know, still a faithful practicing land. So all of this came gradually as I, as I state. It didn't. All of a sudden she becomes disillusioned. But it was a gradual moving away and it took place in an incremental way. It didn't happen all at once.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] Okay, so it sounds like you took us right to the point in the timeline. So she goes to Weber, she starts doing debate and she starts learning about the. Joseph Smith was a polygamist from the RLD Church, which is now the now community of Christ rumors.

Newell Bringhurst [00:27:52] She looks at it as, says she's still skeptical. She says, gosh, maybe they're just trying to defame or they're, they're, they're, they're there. You know, she's, she's kind of confused and puzzled by this. And, but, but she gets to University of Utah and she really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] How weird would it have been for a woman to be debating, let's just say in the 30s at Weber State Would that have been normal or would like you mentioned, she was precocious. How you, how remarkable was that that a woman was debating at Weber state in the 30s?

Newell Bringhurst [00:28:24] Well, I, I guess not all that much because they had other women and, and, and, you know, it's interesting how that they're, they, they didn't really discriminate against her as a woman. And, and because she was so bright, I mean, it was logical that she would be one of their star debaters. I mean, they, they.

Newell Bringhurst [00:28:47] That was not that abnormal. But I mean, yeah, so I, I think she was, was not considered as that unusual. And then she gets to University of Utah and she, she no longer is that interested in debate because she comes to the conclusion that, you know, debating is kind of an artificial thing where you have to be able. Prepared to take both sides of an argument. And I think she kind of, you know, tires of debate by the time she gets to University of Utah. And her exposure to more, a more skeptical, a more questioning environment takes place at the University of Utah, not so much with things Mormon as just broadening her knowledge about, you know, larger questions of history and philosophy.

Newell Bringhurst [00:29:39] And, and she's exposed to her uncle, Dean Brimhall, who is her favorite uncle. And he's kind of a skeptic by this name, even though he's the son of George Brimhall. And he actually was for a time a professor of psychology at Brigham Young University.

Newell Bringhurst [00:30:01] And he, by the time that she gets to the University of Utah and is close to her uncle and her Aunt Lila, who is out at the Echols family. So they're kind of a little bit of royalty right there, but they're more skeptical. They're more. And at that time, it's interesting, she says when she was exposed to Dean Brimhall's skepticism, she says she's still a believing orthodox Mormon, says he's a bright guy, he's articulate, but he lacks the convictions of somehow of a practicing Mormon. She's still, you know, kind of, she's still, she's still a little bit leery of her uncle.

Newell Bringhurst [00:30:48] And so she's still pretty much of a faithful, believing Mormon. And reinforce that is she's dating her boyfriend. She gets as a boyfriend when she's in high school and the relationship continues in college. Delworth Jansen, who comes out of a. A Scandinavian Mormon background, who is actually, interestingly enough, the he. He was the uncle of the guy who is the church historian.

John Dehlin [00:31:18] Marlon Johnson.

Newell Bringhurst [00:31:19] Marlon Jensen. Marlon J. Uncle.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] So Fawn Brody dated Marlon Jensen's uncle

Newell Bringhurst [00:31:25] And they were serious. They were talking marriage and everything else. And that kept her kind of in the straight and narrow orthodoxy because he was a strong, believing, practicing Mormon and went off on a mission. And she writes him and they stay in touch. He's somewhat older than she is. He's five, six years older. And so they have a very strong relationship and there's kind of an unspoken. They're. They're steady, they're an item. Yeah, they're together for, for a number of years. It's all through her teenage, early to late teenage years. They are dating each other.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] Okay, really quickly. I know that BYU had kind of a period where too many professors were teaching biology, were teaching evolution. I don't know if that was the 20s or 30s. Was Brimhall the her. I guess her maternal grandfather? Was he over. Was he president when all that evolution started?

Newell Bringhurst [00:32:31] He was coming under. Under fire for, for that. And, and ultimately he was forced out of his position.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] So her grandfather's death by suicide could have been tied to him being forced out of BYU over evolution?

Newell Bringhurst [00:32:45] Well, I'm sure that he was depressed, but he had health problems too. And from what the family has told me when I interviewed him, that it was as much, if not more due to he was declining health and he just didn't want to suffer anymore. So there was that factor.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] But also you mentioned her uncle. Her uncle's disbelief or skepticism. That uncle would have also been exposed to the evolution scandal and that would have colored his.

Newell Bringhurst [00:33:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Skepticism towards the church too.

Newell Bringhurst [00:33:15] And he was a very bright guy, just like her, you know, so, like, care.

High School, Evolution, and Cracks in Testimony

John Dehlin [00:33:19] I'm just kind of curious. Like I, I know evolution has, has been a part of your faith awakening.

Carah Burrell [00:33:24] Yeah, you're right.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] You've. You've been, you've been kind of. You lost your faith a couple years ago, but like, isn't it a tiny bit mind blowing that, like that, you know, we know that like the Book of Abraham, you know, issue makes the New York Times by 1912. We know that B H Roberts stuff hits, you know, as, as Shannon Cold Almont has helped us remember that hits the quorum of the 12 in the first presidency by 1922. And then we've got all these evolution scandals at BYU that then ties to this Brimhall, these two Brimhall characters that are then tied to Fama K. Brody. It's like these issues have been in the church for so long, but somehow the, the memory hole is so powerful. Is it, Is it weird to.

Carah Burrell [00:34:07] Yeah, the memory hole is a good way to put it. Yeah, they'll. That's so fascinating. Like you're saying how long those things have been around and that just on those basis alone that should have shaken a lot more things up. But they, yeah, they just slipped on the memory hole because evolution, that's one thing I can't move past that. I can't. I physically couldn't accept a prophet who rejected evolution and I should have. Have questioned why a lot sooner. So.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] Yeah, and it's just mind blowing that like so many people in 2021 are still not knowing the basics about Joseph Smith's history or any of these controversies. It's just always mind blowing to me to know that these controversies were raging in the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, and somehow still kept from the, from the broad church membership consciousness. Somehow. But Von Brody was marinating in it and that's probably. That probably informs then her journey.

Carah Burrell [00:35:05] Yeah, and they're excommunicated as well. I feel like anything that all of these conversations that are happening, they usually have at least one or a string of people excommunicated or silenced or silenced

John Dehlin [00:35:14] in one way, fired or you know,

Carah Burrell [00:35:16] so they are, they're othered by the church. And so the mainstream churches doesn't feel comfortable even investigating their ideas. They're just too, they're too icky, they're too other.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] And it's too scary because you'll end up like Brimhall, you know, you'll end up like B.H. roberts. You'll. You'll end up marginalized. Anyway, thanks. This is great. No. Okay, so. So she gets exposed. She's dating this, this Jensen man, Del Worth Jansen. She's, she's studying at the U. Is she studying history at the U?

Newell Bringhurst [00:35:46] English?

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Sure, studying.

Newell Bringhurst [00:35:48] Yeah. She ended up getting her degree in English and so she wasn't trained as a historian. That's the interesting thing, that she becomes this eminent historian. But she, number one, she is majoring in English. She gets both a bachelor's and a master's in English at the U. Well, she gets the bachelor's at the U, but she gets her master's at the University of Chicago. And that's a whole other story.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] Okay, so let's. What else should we talk about of her time at the U. And her awakening to factual Mormon history that leads to her wanting to write this book.

University Years and Early Academic Interests

Newell Bringhurst [00:36:27] Well, at the U, she, she expressed no real interest in studying Joseph Smith or pursuing the idea of Mormon history. I mean she's still a believing, practicing Latter Day Saint all through her two years at the University of Utah and gets her de. Agree.

Newell Bringhurst [00:36:48] And she's still. She's still dating Dilworth Jensen and they're still talking about marriage at that point. And he's returned from his mission. He returns from his mission and at that point he. He actually gets his degree from Utah State University because he's going. He ends up doing his work in entomology. He becomes an. It comes a very successful entomologist.

Newell Bringhurst [00:37:15] And she is that bugs. Yeah, yeah. Study of insects. Right. And so he ultimately ends up going to Berkeley. University of California, Berkeley. And at that point they're debating where should Fawn go to school. And so there's talk of. Of she's starting to sort of have doubts about her relationship with Dilworth, but not really, you know, she hasn't really articulated. I mean, they've been going together so long. They've been, you know, they've had all these experiences together.

Newell Bringhurst [00:37:54] And so this is a critical point of her life is where she's going to go to school. Is she going to accompany Dilworth and go on to Berkeley, you know, to get a. Get a. Get a marriage. She wants to do graduate work. They expect she's going to do graduate work as she gets her bachelor's from the University of Utah or should it go somewhere else in the meanwhile, it's interesting because Dilworth has an older brother who marries Flora.

Newell Bringhurst [00:38:30] His name is Leslie Jansen and he's a little bit different than Dalworth. Dalworth is very, very scholarly, very intellectual. Whereas Dalworth is kind of a. Kind of a wild character, a little bit of a. You know. And anyway, in the meanwhile, the two sisters, they're double dating brothers. Two brothers because they're so Dilworth. And the older daughter Flora is going with Leslie and eventually they elope and get married. And that just really upsets the family because the family doesn't think much of Leslie. They find him too crude. He's Scandinavian. And there's kind of an ethnic prejudice against. Because, you know, the Mackays are old line English Scottish families and there's a tendency to look down on Scandinavians, you know, even Scandinavian Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] Interesting.

Newell Bringhurst [00:39:31] Yeah, that's one of the subsets in Mormon culture is this kind of ethnicity thing. And he's crude. He's kind of a crude guy. And so when they rush off and elope, this presents a real critical situation, not just for Fawn, but the whole family and Thomas and, and Mother Fawn. Do we want another Jansen in the family? We've already got Leslie Jansen. And so. And that's concurrent with Fawn sort of having sort of doubts whether she wants to spend the rest of her life with Dilworth. And so the McKays have connections with the University of Chicago at that time. A lot of Latter Day Saint, bright Latter Day Saints are going off to University of Chicago.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] What was that about?

Newell Bringhurst [00:40:31] Well, there was a whole thing about, you know, Latter Day Saints, bright future leaders, future people that will have an influence of the church getting educated at the University of Chicago because it's considered one of the most highly regarded school schools at that time. And so Fawn is encouraged to go to the University of Chicago because there's a large Mormon contingent that's already there that these bright, articulate Latter Day Saints that are also going to University of Chicago during this period.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] So as I'm think. Tell me if this is even relevant here, but I'm thinking about the intellectual battle between kind of science and faith or orthodox faith that that happens sometime in the mid 20th century. You've got, you know, people like Joseph F. Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, kind of on the one camp, and I'm sure there are lots of others. And then you've got the talmadges and the wood stoves and the eyrings and the people that really value science, along with B H Roberts, by the way. And as I understand it, there, there were strong strains even at the highest levels of the church that we're saying, no, we've got to embrace science, we've got to embrace academia, and there's a way for intellectualism to be harmonized with faith. And I just wonder if this University of Chicago stuff that's going on in the mid 20th century is tied into that in some way.

Newell Bringhurst [00:42:04] Very much so. Very much so. I mean, like you say, there's these two and there's still a lot of openness. And within the church hierarchy, within the 12, there are the more intellectual people like the Widsels and the others, I guess, Bennion.

Newell Bringhurst [00:42:30] And that is part of that. The church is kind of these two countervailing forces at that time that are evident within the hierarchy. And then you have more orthodox, the ones who are, you know, haven't gone, haven't received that type of education or training like the Joseph Fielding Smiths and the people on the other side. And I'd include Harold B. Lee in there who, you know, I just wrote the biography on. But and so, you know, Fawn is kind of thrown into that mix, you know, when she gets back to the University of Chicago and that's when her real disaffection really starts, is once she gets back to the University of Chicago to do graduate work for a degree in English Critical Literature.

Meeting Bernard Brodie and Moving to Chicago

John Dehlin [00:43:24] Do you know what year she goes to Chicago?

Newell Bringhurst [00:43:26] Yeah, she's there from, from, from when she's 18. She, she, she. I guess from the early 1930s. She, she graduates from University of Chicago in 36. So I, she goes back there in 34, and she's there for. She does her degree work from 34 to 36, and that's when she gets her degree in English Literature.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] And would that have been unique for a woman to, to go and get a, you know, in the mid-1930s, would it have been unique or odd for a woman to get her, you know, master's degree, especially from a school as reputable and as prestigious as the University of Chicago?

Newell Bringhurst [00:44:10] You know, I'm not sure because that, that was one thing that I didn't. I wasn't able to find how, what, what proportion of the student body was female as opposed to male, but I would imagine it was overwhelmingly male. As it was when I went to graduate school and went to even my undergraduate at the University of Utah. I would say it'd be overwhelmingly male. I mean, there's no doubt about that. So it'd be unusual for her as a woman, but she made it through the program.

Newell Bringhurst [00:44:47] And she's. In the meantime, she meets and is courted by Bernard Brody, her future husband, who comes out of a Jewish background. They're not practicing believing Jews, but he comes out of a Jewish Russian background. And she swept off her feet by Bernard Brody. Here's a guy who is so different and so unique from anybody she's ever met.

Newell Bringhurst [00:45:20] And so she. They're married after a whirlwind courtship. It's just a matter of weeks from the time that they start courting, I guess, during her last year of graduate school, and they end up getting married on the same day that she graduates from the University. University of Chicago, interestingly enough.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Okay, so if her family's struggling with one of her siblings marrying a Scandinavian, I just can't imagine the scandal of her marrying a Jew. Right.

Newell Bringhurst [00:45:53] Because that was a major thunderstruck.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] Yeah, because

Newell Bringhurst [00:45:59] it was really, you know, they were just so upset. The father refused to attend. Fawn's father refused the only.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] You know. Why?

Newell Bringhurst [00:46:12] Well, he, he, he was really bothered by the fact that she was marrying this guy. He was non Mormon and he was Jewish. And I mean, this is the time when, when, you know, there's so much anti Anti Semitism is pervasive in American society. I mean, this anti. Semitism, Semitism, you know, it's not until after World War II and we deal with the impact of the Holocaust that, you know, Americans become less anti Semitic. But antisemitism was rampant in American society.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] And in Utah, Mormonism.

Newell Bringhurst [00:46:54] I mean, it's sort of ironic because Latter Day Saints consider themselves, you know, there's always been an ambiguous, counterintuitive relationship between, you know, the way Americans, Mormons view Jews and, you know, because they view them as. Because Latter Day Saints have this idea we're of the House of Israel and they're. And Jews are of that same thing, but at the same time they're not Christians. And, you know, there's all. There's that element and there's just that, you know, larger anti. Semitism that is pervasive in American society. And so, you know, it's against that backdrop that Fawn Brody meets and dates, you know, Bernard and she's just swept off her feet. Whereas Bernard's family, they're not happy that their son is marrying a Gentile. And so neither one of Bernard's parents, neither his mother nor his father attend the wedding.

Carah Burrell [00:48:00] This is a real Romeo and Juliet like tale, as old as time kind of thing.

Newell Bringhurst [00:48:04] Very much so. Very much so.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:48:07] Love overcoming all, though.

Newell Bringhurst [00:48:08] Yeah. I mean, they just. They just fell madly in love. And it's interesting because the thing that she also, which I didn't talk about, that affected her during her youth was her excessive height. I mean, she had a classic beauty. If you look at the pictures of her, she was just stunningly beautiful woman. But she was tall. She was 5 foot 11 in her height, and that was 5 foot 10. And that was.

Carah Burrell [00:48:36] I'm a 5 foot 11, by the way. Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [00:48:38] And that was considered extraordinarily tall. And she was very sensitive about her height because although her first boyfriend, Dilworth was about the same height she was all through her growing up years, she was always very self conscious about being tall.

Carah Burrell [00:48:58] More close to Fawn Brody than I ever have. Not because of the beauty thing. Just the height. Just the height.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] Okay, so she rocks the family by marrying a Gentile. It's funny because only Mormons. Well, I guess it is a Jew, but not a Mormon. I guess they say Gentile in the sense.

Newell Bringhurst [00:49:17] Yeah, yeah. Utah is the only.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] Mormons are the only ones that can make Jews gentiles.

Newell Bringhurst [00:49:21] That's right. I wrote a short story dealing with that theme where it deals with this guy who comes out of a Jewish background and he lives briefly in Utah and he says Utah is the only place on the face of the earth where a Jewish Jan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:49:38] Okay, that's like not even made up.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Yeah, so I, I, I'm onto something there. Okay, so, so she marries a Jew that's. And a non Mormon and that's going to be scandalous to the family.

Newell Bringhurst [00:49:50] Very much so.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] And she doesn't marry in the temple, so she must have just full on lost her. Either she just fell in love at University of Chicago or she just fully lost her faith or both.

Newell Bringhurst [00:50:02] Well, it was, I say she. And it was only, I mean, all this time she gave every indication that she was going to marry Dilworth Jansen. I mean, they stayed, they corresponded with each other when she was back at the University of Chicago. And as I say, it was a whirlwind romance. It was just a matter of weeks that they knew each other and then they got married, which was sort of scary in a way. I mean, they'd only dated for a matter of weeks and then they got married.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] And Bernard, his name was Bernard.

Newell Bringhurst [00:50:35] Bernard, pronounced Bernard.

John Dehlin [00:50:36] Bernard.

Newell Bringhurst [00:50:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] And you know, Bernard was, he do you know which city, state he was from, like growing up as a Jew where?

Newell Bringhurst [00:50:43] Well, he grew up in Chicago.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] Okay.

Newell Bringhurst [00:50:45] Family lived in Chicago.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Okay. He was a local.

Newell Bringhurst [00:50:47] Chicago.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] Yeah. Yeah. There's a strong, vibrant Jewish community in Chicago. Yeah, I used to live there. So, okay, so, okay, so what happens then? And I'm mostly curious, like what happens to her faith, you know?

Newell Bringhurst [00:50:58] Well, you know.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] Were you gonna say something, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:51:01] No, I was just gonna say Bernard or Dilworth. I have no way to know who's a better guy. Dilworth. Now, it's not really what I want to be saying. Oh, Dilworth. Oh, sweetie.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] I have a cousin named Dilworth Parkinson and I, and I wonder now, he, he grew up in the Weber area and he's an Arabic professor at byu. I'm just wondering if he was, if he got, if, if my ancestors or family got that name from.

Newell Bringhurst [00:51:25] Well, that came from. I think there was a well regarded early pioneer in education in Utah who was named Dilworth. I think that's where the name Dilworth comes from.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] And deal with young too. Right?

Newell Bringhurst [00:51:37] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] All right, so anyway, she goes with Berner, not Dilworth.

Newell Bringhurst [00:51:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] Okay. All right, so what happens to her faith and how does that lead to scholarship?

Beginning Research on Joseph Smith

Newell Bringhurst [00:51:49] Well, she starts to, you know, have questions about Joseph Smith. I mean, she's still, it's interesting when she first goes back to Chicago, kind of an interesting Story that she's still a believing, practicing Latter Day Saint. And so she has a non Mormon roommate. And this non Mormon roommate, you know, she's relating the story of, of the miraculous, of the golden plates and Joseph Smith's translation of them and everything else, relating this story to her roommate. And her roommate says, well, after Joseph Smith translated the gold plates, what happened to the gold plates? And Fawn Brody says, God took them back up into heaven. And this roommate looks at her, rolls her eyes and says, you know, come on, you know, you gotta be kidding.

Newell Bringhurst [00:52:46] And at that moment she, you know, is thinking about. Because she's very bright, very articulate, and the more she thinks about it, you know, the wheels start to turn. Yeah, the wheels start to turn. And so she becomes interested in why, you know, how the Book of Mormon came to be written. And that was her initial foray into.

Newell Bringhurst [00:53:12] Into Joseph Smith was how the Book of Mormon came to be produced, how it came to be written. And so she starts, you know, getting a hold of literature and that on, you know, non Mormons in the University of Chicago Library, which has an extensive collection of materials dealing with not just Mormon history, but all religious history, because it's a leading institution in religious history.

Newell Bringhurst [00:53:39] And that leads her to Joseph Smith. It leads her to the larger questions. And so after she graduates with her degree in English, it's very difficult to get a job because we're in the depths of the Great depression, this is 1936. And ultimately she gets a job as a librarian in the Harper Library, which is at the University of Chicago. And she's kind of a night clerk. And so she's able to grab these books off the shelf and starts reading them.

Newell Bringhurst [00:54:13] And that's where the genesis for no Man Knows My History comes is from her reading and curiosity into looking into the life and activities of Joseph Smith. And that's over. So over a period of the following eight years, seven or eight years, that's how no Man Knows My History comes into being.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] So as I'm trying to put myself in her shoes, the problem with trying to write no Man Knows My History is that you don't have access to no Man Knows My History. In other words, the church has spent 100 years whitewashing its history, demeaning and defaming anyone who had ever said anything about Joseph Smith that was not just unkind, but absolutely true, and then sort of advancing a really whitewashed, faithful narrative. And so how would she have found any documents because she didn't have her own book as a resource?

Newell Bringhurst [00:55:09] Well, I mean, she had, you know, non Mormon books that had been written, critical studies written by.

John Dehlin [00:55:17] There's Mormonism Unveiled, you know, the hurlbut affidavits, Right?

Newell Bringhurst [00:55:21] Yeah, various books that had been written that were critical of Mormonism and that were, you know, critical of, of Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] And she also didn't have the Tanners. Right. Because they came after her.

Newell Bringhurst [00:55:34] But there, but there were, were enough other sources that she was able to get, get a hold of that, you know, of a, of a non. That we're looking at. Yeah, I mean, even though they, they, a lot of them were very critical and questioning of Joseph Smith's truth claims, I mean, there was a body of literature out there that she was able to consult and looking at these various books, it was clear, you know, they looked at Joseph Smith from maybe a psychological point of view. I think it was a well known psychological study and I can't remember the title of it right off the top of my head.

Newell Bringhurst [00:56:17] But she was able to get a hold of non Mormon studies that had been done on Joseph Smith and was able to get a hold of various books that had talked about, you know, things written by contemporaneous that had been written right around Joseph Smith's lifetime. You know, things like things written by William Law and people like that, I mean, John Bennett, there were a lot of John Bennett. I mean, and she was able to go back and look at the literature, the historical literature that had been written at the time of Joseph Smith's life because, you know, he was very controversial in the time that he lived.

Newell Bringhurst [00:56:57] And so you go back, you can look at the newspapers of the period that were. Because by Joseph Smith's death, you know, Mormonism had grown into a pretty visible religious denomination. And so she went back to the contemporary newspapers, the contemporary books that had been written by non Mormons and by Mormons, so by people who were critical. And so that was the basis of the material that went into no Man Knows My History. I mean, the stuff that she couldn't get at, of course, were the documents written by Joseph Smith himself and that were buried in the church archives.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] Yeah, okay, so she's studying books written about Joseph Smith during his day by people who knew him. She's studying newspaper articles and as many original sources as she can get a hold of.

Newell Bringhurst [00:57:55] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] And she's starting to piece together kind of the real story. And I just, I can't emphasize enough how like I think about Juanita Brooks just as a mother, mom, whatever decade she was writing the book about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Like, I'm just saying, like, one of the most courageous five to ten years in Mormon history is Fawn Brody at the University of Chicago. It was David O. McKay, prophet by the mid-1930s.

Newell Bringhurst [00:58:25] Well, he was in the first presidency because he was elevated, you know, from being an apostle to the first presidency in the early 1930s. So he was moving up in the church.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] Yeah. So your dad is in the First Presidency of the Church, you're a woman, you're at the University of Chicago, you've married a Jew, and then all of a sudden, you're going to start, you're going to be the first person that I know of in Mormon history to say this narrative that I was raised in isn't adding up. It's kind of like Lucy Harris, like, it's like, wait a minute, this isn't adding up. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have the courage and the strength, even though my, my uncle is in the first presidency, to figure out the real story. And I just, I can't say enough how inspirational, just that if, if there's one moment in time I could go back to in Mormon history, that might be the time. Because I, I don't know what must have been in her mind to say, I'm going at this right?

Newell Bringhurst [00:59:30] Well, it was in the 30s.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] As a, as a woman with your. You know, so many people right now, Carah, think about this new you two. So many people right now are afraid to like a Facebook post or to friend me or, you know, because, like, oh, no, what if I'm associated with John De Lynn? Or what if, you know, what if, what if my family member finds finds out that I have a question like in 2021 now that it's like almost popular to lose your faith, People are still terrified. There are so many of my listeners that are dentists or doctors or lawyers or stay at home moms, and they're terrified to even come out to their parents as having lost their faith. Imagine what it's like as a woman in the 30s to like, research Joseph Smith and the truth behind it. It's mind blowing.

Carah Burrell [01:00:19] Start a new Mormon Stories campaign. Wwf fbd. What would Fon Brody do?

John Dehlin [01:00:24] Yeah, what would Fon Brody do? Like, isn't it a courageous thing?

Carah Burrell [01:00:28] It's crazy.

Newell Bringhurst [01:00:29] Well, it was, it. She was very conscious of, of, of how risky it was because she was very mindful of the impact it would have on her family. I mean, she was very, she, she was a very sensitive, empathetic woman as well. I mean, she she really, really agonized. I mean, and, I mean, she just really. It was just very difficult for her. And I try to emphasize this in the book.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] She wasn't, like, giddy, gleeful.

Newell Bringhurst [01:01:00] She wasn't at all. I mean, it was. For her, it was an agonizing, excruciating experience for her because she could see what the impact it had on her, particularly her immediate family. Her father had health problems. I mean, he was in, you know, he was always a frail man, unlike David O. Who was kind of robust and always, you know, out there in the farm with the horses and all of that. Whereas Thomas had health issues and was always very frail. She was very sensitive to the impact that this was. Would have on her very devout, believing father. Whereas her mother tended to be much more supportive of what she was doing when she was researching and writing.

Newell Bringhurst [01:01:52] Her mother had. She had support from her mother, and her sisters tended to be supportive, too, whereas the brother was more like the father. I mean, it's interesting the divisions with this family are between male and female, female, in terms of the intensity of Mormon belief and orthodoxy. That. That became very clear to me when I interviewed members of the family, when I interviewed all of her siblings.

Carah Burrell [01:02:18] Yeah. And when I think of Fawn Brody, I think she. While she was researching, didn't she already have a couple kids at that time as well?

Newell Bringhurst [01:02:24] Very much so.

Carah Burrell [01:02:25] So she was like a working mom.

Newell Bringhurst [01:02:26] Yeah. And she very much embraced the role. And I don't mean that with any, you know, I mean that both literally and figuratively, the role of being a mother. She very much wanted to have children, wanted to be a mother, and she was very doting and very, very giving to her children. A lot of people don't realize this. They see this as this awful Brody woman. You know, she's been demonized. I mean, that's the thing that I found most revealing was how different, the real empathetic, caring Vaughn Brody. She saw her first role as being a mother, and she relished in the role of being a mother.

Newell Bringhurst [01:03:07] There's a picture in the book of her with her first child, Richard Dickey, as she called him, and, you know, just playing with him. I mean, the picture says a thousand words. And that really showed her caring as a mother. And she was determined to have not just one child. It wasn't like an accidental thing, but that went on to have three child children, and in the process went through two miscarriages, and she almost died in the second miscarriage. She says, I want to have children. I want to have children.

Carah Burrell [01:03:42] Wow, that's incredible.

John Dehlin [01:03:44] And, Carrie, you bring up such an important point because obviously Mormonism is such a patriarchy. But if you say, you think about two of the most influential historians that we can attribute to kind of helping Mormons wake up in the 21st century, it's Juanita Brooks and it's Fawn Brody, and both of them did what they did as women in the mid-1900s, as moms.

Newell Bringhurst [01:04:09] Right.

Carah Burrell [01:04:10] That's incredible. And I can't even. Like, you're saying with, like, liking a Facebook post. There's so many things that we. We can barely do. I can barely do as a working mom, and my brain can't even wrap around how she did that.

John Dehlin [01:04:23] And there was no Internet. It's not like she could just Google, like, Journal of Discourses Google, like, oh, or Evening and Morning Star Google. She had no Internet. So everything she's researching is at libraries, you know, in multiple libraries, probably. Right?

Carah Burrell [01:04:37] Yeah. Like, I get, you know, Cheerios and milk spilled on my computer. And she's going through, like, all of these historic documents. I just have this image of her just trying to balance being such a doting mother while doing this incredibly difficult work. And that takes so much focus and investigation that it literally my brain can't wrap around.

John Dehlin [01:04:55] And she doesn't have a personal computer, so she's doing index cards and pencils, you know, like. Like, however, she's creating an archive of all her documents that she's researching and studying all her citations, all the quotes that she wants to use. She's not using a computer.

Carah Burrell [01:05:11] Yeah. I've always had this view of Von Brody that she's a amazing. And that's why I was glad to have Newell on today, because I wanted to learn more about and about just her life generally. And I'm still just in awe. Like, I'm still trying to. Like, I'm glad that she was sensitive to her family and she understood the ramifications that were going to happen. She didn't go out giddily. Is giddily a word? You know, I like that we're adding so much context to this. But all she's. All I'm seeing is just more and more levels added to, like, the badassery here. Like, this is. She's an incredible woman.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] She's brilliant. Okay. And courageous. I guess I'm just saying courageous. She must have been wicked smart, like you say, and industrious and committed.

Newell Bringhurst [01:05:49] Very committed. Very persistent. I mean, that. That was the other thing. One of the children said that when I interviewed One of her, her daughter and might have been a son, said the thing that stood out about my mother was not her extreme intelligence, but her persistence and drive to be anxiously engaged. I mean, to be anxiously engaged in scholarship. That was her whole life, her whole being.

Newell Bringhurst [01:06:17] Not her whole being, but such a significant segment here. She's able to balance this role as being a devoted, loving mother and a committed wife because her husband at the same time was pursuing his career as a leading strategist in nuclear deterrence.

Newell Bringhurst [01:06:39] And he was. Well, yeah, he was very much. He was with RAND down in, you know, the RAND Corporation down in Santa Monica. He was one of their leading strategists. He worked with people like Herman Kahn and Henry Kissinger. They were his colleagues, people that he. So he was of a national stature in and of himself a highly successful, highly regarded in the field of nuclear strategy, strategy and tactics in war. And they even co authored a book together, you know, dealing with the development of war and weaponry. Fawn Brody and her husband, I mean, she was very supportive of his career and, and he was very supportive of her career.

Newell Bringhurst [01:07:27] So he was a highly successful professional person. He had a PhD in international relations from the University of Chicago. She never got a PhD, but he did. He went on and he ultimately, after leaving rand, he became a professor of political science at UCLA the same time that Fawn was there.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Right. Okay. So she, she is a stay at home mom and she's writing this book on Joseph Smith, courageously. So tell us about the writing of the book. And, and I do get a sense that at some point she has access to LDS Church archives in Salt Lake City, at least in part through her connections with her uncle, David O. McKay. Is that true or not true?

Accessing Archives and Writing the Biography

Newell Bringhurst [01:08:14] Well, she, she was granted access,

Carah Burrell [01:08:19] but

Newell Bringhurst [01:08:19] it was a very contentious thing because she wanted to look at a particular diary that Joseph Smith had written in one of the early diaries. And she understood it was in the archives and she actually went through a very tortured interview with Joseph Fielding Smith.

John Dehlin [01:08:36] She met.

Newell Bringhurst [01:08:36] She did, yeah, she met Joseph Fielding Smith. And he says there's some things in here we just don't let people see something to that effect. And it was a very.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] Did you hear that, Carah?

Newell Bringhurst [01:08:49] Testy meeting. And anyway, I just want to back up. Additionally, she was refused access, but then her uncle, through her uncle, I guess, you know, because David O. McKay, by this time was in the First Presidency of the church, this is in the early 1940s, says, well, you can look at it. But by that time she was so, you know, upset with the way that she'd been treated by Joseph Fielding Smith and just. She was. Could see that this is going to be rankled. The.

Newell Bringhurst [01:09:22] You know, it's going to create problems. She says, I won't. I just won't pursue this any further. And so she never actually looked at the material that she wanted to look at. It was. It was a diary. It was a particular diary. There were some. Yeah, it was a. It was. I think it was an 1832 diary and there was some sources or she wanted to. To check out in that and.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] No, but new. Tell me if I'm wrong. Like, for me, I've. I've always. I used to love Joseph Billy Smith. He used to be my favorite. I read Doctrines of Salvation, volumes one, two and three. Like, I loved the guy. He was like the inspiration of Bruce McConkey, which was my childhood hero as a Mormon. But. But what, what made so funny? Why are you laughing?

Newell Bringhurst [01:10:04] No, no, no, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:10:06] I mean, that's how I was raised.

Carah Burrell [01:10:07] But he had posters on him just like he was Michael Jones Jordan on your wall.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] Exactly. Yeah, he was my Michael Jordan. Yeah. No, but, but like what. What I now think of first, when I think about Joseph feeling Smith is the fact that he. He encountered the 1832, the first account of the first vision at some point in his career as church historian. And he's the one who we think has ripped out that first version, that first account of the first vision and hid it. So I'm thinking, is this the. The same diary that he ripped the first known version of, the one that would have been disturbing to Mormons today because it was way different than the official account of the first vision. It was just the Lord instead of God and Jesus, like, troublesome in all sorts of ways. Joseph Fielding Smith would have knowingly ripped that out of the 1832 diary. Is this the same diary that Fon Brodie wanted access to?

Newell Bringhurst [01:11:02] Well, as I say, I can't say for sure, but, you know, I'm speaking from memory, but it seems like in my. As I'm pretty sure it was the 1832 diary, but, you know, I can't say for sure, but it seems like that was the one. Somehow she wanted to look at that diary.

John Dehlin [01:11:25] I mean, the question that we always get today is, you know, how much do the brethren know and how much are they deceiving or misleading people? And the picture that I'm hearing you paint is that Joseph Fielding Smith, as a church historian, apostle and eventual prophet, he knows that in the church Archives, there's deeply troubling material. He's intentionally hiding that from the members and he's keeping Fawn Brody from getting access to the documents that she would need to write an accurate biography of Joseph Smith. Is that all true? Did I get that right?

Newell Bringhurst [01:11:59] Well, I, you know, to make a full bodied account of Joseph Smith that Joseph. Yeah, I think that she, yeah, she would have liked to have been able to have access because when she went over to the Reorganized Church at that time, Community of Christ, they were much more, more open in allowing her access to the materials that they had in their library. I mean, it was like a difference between night and day. I mean, she encounters this hostile reaction on the part of the Utah Latter Day Saints in their archives and then goes out to Independence, Missouri and they actually bring out all kinds of things to let her look at.

Newell Bringhurst [01:12:47] And, and it's just, you know, it's so different. But so she's very much affected by that whole experience and she does the best she can in her biography with what she had access to. And I think that's much to her credit because she did as much as she could by piecing together what had been available that had been written at the time that he was alive. You know, because she really went to a lot of, you know, contemporary sources at Joseph Smith's lifetime. And it would have been a much more, you know, she could have looked into much more detail if she'd had access to the materials that, you know, people like Richard Bushman, who comes along later and does his biography on Joseph Smith had.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] So if you had to rate the church from an A to an F in terms of their cooperation with the church archives on no man Knows My history, what grade would you give this?

Newell Bringhurst [01:13:51] Well, it was wanting. I don't know if I assigned grade. I mean, it was. And I guess, you know, it was at a time when the church was moving, moving, moving more in a conservative direction. You know, I mean, it was politically, you mean? Yeah, well, in, in terms of, it's not just politically, but in, in terms of enforcing orthodoxy and stuff like that. Because you, you know, and this is what I found when I was working on the Harold B. Lee, because at the same time that Thomas McKay was ordained an assistant to the 12, Harold B. Lee was ordained as a very, very young apostle.

Newell Bringhurst [01:14:36] And subsequent to that, a whole courtier of young apostles were being brought in and they were moving the church in a more conservative direction. That the beginnings of the retrenchment, you could say the genesis of correlation was, was Starting to take place. And these older apostles, a number like Widtso and Talmage. Talmage and Bennion, the more intellectual.

Newell Bringhurst [01:15:12] Yeah. You know, they were getting older, and they were being replaced by these younger, more conservative ones. I mean, a lot of them were proteges of Harold Biel. I'm getting into. Yeah, I'm getting into the Carol B. Lee stuff, but that's a whole nother story. But I think that's when the church was kind of moving in that direction in enforcing more conformity, orthodoxy, and more politically conservative.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] And Gerardo's wanting me to just be fair to Joseph Fielding Smith, to acknowledge that his grandfather would have been Hiram Smith, who was killed, his dad would have been Joseph F. Smith. They would have felt traumatized by the murder of, in Joseph E. Lee Smith's case, his grandfather.

Newell Bringhurst [01:16:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] And they would have been just very defensive at the attacks on the church, the attacks on their family. He would have been a sincere believer that was just trying to protect not only the church, but his own personal family. And so that's just an attempt to understand why Joseph Fielding Smith would have intentionally hid materials that would have not been viewed as favorable. Yeah. From both the world, but also from the membership.

Newell Bringhurst [01:16:23] Yeah. I mean. Yeah, it's. It. So she, as I say, she did the best she could and created a. You know, the ultimate biography was a seminal work. I mean, it's influenced, as you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, it has certainly influenced the whole direction of Mormon scholarship, of historical scholarship. It's kind of a seminal beginning point.

John Dehlin [01:16:55] Yeah. Okay. So at some point, she's writing this book, and she's got to realize it's going to be a scandalous book once it's released, Right.

Newell Bringhurst [01:17:02] Very much so. She's very sensitive to that all the way through. And. And so she. She. She. She's kind of at loose ends about. You know, on the one hand, she wants to get it out there, but on the other hand, she's fearful of what this is going to do to her family, you know, in particular her family, and just her own relationship with not just her immediate family, but her extended family as well.

John Dehlin [01:17:29] So what is. What happens?

Newell Bringhurst [01:17:32] Well, you know, ultimately, she is excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:17:37] Oh, no. Before. Before that. Before that. So she's writing the draft of this book. Is she, like, running it by Lowell Bennett? Is she running it by other church historians? Does her uncle, David O. McKay, have any idea that this book is coming out? Is it just. Does it hit the church? Like, does it surprise the church? Does she have Any collaborators before it's released. Well, talk about what take us up into the release, if that makes sense.

Newell Bringhurst [01:18:04] Well, the actual writing of the book, she goes through several different drafts. She's not just writing it and throwing it out there because she does a lot of writing and rewrite. She's very meticulous in the way she wants to present the story and she wants to get as much input from people that can help her. And one of the main people that's almost becomes a mentor is Dale L. Morgan. She has a very, very close. Morgan almost becomes like a second, you know, he's almost like her alder ego. Well, he comes out of a Mormon background. A lot of people don't know much about Dale Morgan.

Newell Bringhurst [01:18:46] He was a scholar in his own right. But he had written a biography of another Smith, Jedediah Smith Smith. He grew up in a small town similar to Fawn Brody, up in the area around Ogden, near Ogden. And he developed meningitis. He was a very bright child.

Newell Bringhurst [01:19:15] I think he was a direct descendant of Orson Pratt. I think his genealogy goes back to Orson Pratt. And he was educated at the University of Utah. He was completely deaf. He lost his hearing through meningitis. And so he lost his hearing, but in a way that sharpened his intellect because he knew that he, in terms of his pursuit of knowledge, like Fawn Brody, he was very curious and very precocious and graduated from the University of Utah. I think it was a great commercial art or something like that. Ended up becoming a historian. But, but he, but he ended up working for the Works Progress Administration.

John Dehlin [01:19:59] Fdr.

Newell Bringhurst [01:20:00] Yeah, he was, he was a federal employee. He was employed in various federal agencies. But he had an acute interest in both Western and Mormon history. And he collected a lot of newspaper clipping files. He, he intended him to himself to write. He wanted eventually to do a definitive history of early Mormonism. So he was, he was very acutely interested in early Mormon history and Fawn Brody came into contact with him and you know, and so they became fast friends because of their. And he was also a religious skeptic. He, he was a non believer. And so when she got to the phase where she was actually starting to write the manuscript for no Man Knows My History, Dale Morgan became one of her leading mentors and carefully going through the manuscript and he tend to have a more balanced view of saying, well, maybe you're going too far in lambasting Joseph Smith.

Newell Bringhurst [01:21:05] Because by this time she has developed a bit of. Becomes increasingly, I guess you'd say, outraged at Joseph Smith. And what he was doing during his life, you know, is polyandry, you know, the way she's. What? Polyandry, which means that he's marrying other men's wives, you know, and, you know, in the process of polygamy, marries not only unmarried women, but as you're probably aware, he marries women who are already married to other men. And that particularly outraged her and, you know, the inconsistencies in the Book of Mormon and so on.

Newell Bringhurst [01:21:48] And so she's becoming somewhat, you know, in her writing, she's becoming sharp, more sharp edged. And Dale Morgan, you know, says you need to be more, you know, you need to be more moderate in the way you're writing this book.

Newell Bringhurst [01:22:07] And he also puts her onto, you know, scholarship and materials that she might not have been aware of. And he acts as a virtual mentor the whole time that she's writing and producing. No man knows my history. But she also consults other people, people who are part of this Utah literary community.

Newell Bringhurst [01:22:31] Somebody like Wilford Poulsen. You probably never heard that name. He was a professor of psychology down at Brigham Young University, and he offers advice and recommendations. Vesta Crawford. I'm trying to think of some of the other. There are a whole series of writers that are producing.

Newell Bringhurst [01:22:54] Bottice Fisher, who wrote the Children of God, you know, he was a well known Utah writer. He looks at her manuscript, he's giving her input. So she's getting input from members of this Utah literary community and from her uncle, Dean Brimhall. And so all of these people are reading and offering input as she's putting the book together.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] Yeah. And if you think about what she uncovers, it's the stone in the hat, it's the treasure digging, it's the multiple versions of the first vision, it's the eloping with Emma, it's Joseph being found to be kind of guilty of. Kind of, you know, breaking the law with this treasure digging. The, the priesthood restoration stuff and the questions around, you know, the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. She, she gets into things like anachronisms and problems with the Book of Mormon, the Kirtland bank scandal, the financial fraud, the polygamy, the polyandry, the, the, the connections between the, the Mason, the Masonic Lodge and the Temple, the Danites, you know, Joseph Smith running for president, him kind of going crazy towards the end. The violence, the stuff in Missouri, including, you know, Porter Rockwell and the attempted assassination on the governor, Lilburn Boggs, she. She uncovers all of that, am I right?

Newell Bringhurst [01:24:31] Well, yeah, she is. She is uncovering a Lot of the controversial aspects of Joseph Smith's activities. And I guess that, so she is encouraged to sort of, you know, try to portray the more human side of his behavior. And for instance, his, you know, his, obviously he, you know, she comes to the conclusion, conclusion that he's a conscious fraud, but she tries to modify that. I mean, that's her basic thesis, that Joseph Smith was a conscious fraud. That's the underlying thesis of the whole book. But some of the people who criticize her, including people who are encouraging her as she's riding through, say you need to bring out the fact that he came to the conclusion, conclusion he was somehow convinced that what he was doing was in the name of God, that he evolved from a conscious fraud into convincing himself that he was indeed a prophet of God, that he was doing this in the name of God and emphasizing what you call the religious or that he was actually doing the will of God.

Newell Bringhurst [01:25:58] And whether that was true or not, you need to bring out, and Dale Morgan pointed that out to her, you need to emphasize some of these other aspects, the more altruistic side of Joseph Smith, that he was convinced that he was doing something for his followers in the name of God, whether he sincerely believed that or not.

Newell Bringhurst [01:26:25] And so the book is less harsh than it might have been otherwise. I mean, I tried to track down the original first drafts and apparently according to, and I've never been able to verify this for sure, that she actually destroyed the burnt, in a moment of, of anger, she burnt the original drafts and the original stuff that went into the book itself. And so that that part of the story was harder. You know, it would have been great to have the early drafts of what she wrote. And that was one of the licunas or voids in my study.

The Book's Historical Context and Dale Morgan's Influence

John Dehlin [01:27:07] Okay, so Newell, one of, one of the things that's really mind blowing also about what Fon Brody did is she's doing all this in the 30s and early 40s, before the Mormon History association, before Leonard Arrington, before Michael Quinn. And like you said, you kind of mentioned, as you were during break, this kind of lost generation.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] There were these people that cared about Mormon history, couple of byu, a couple in the Salt Lake Ogden community. And I think it's just interesting that she had this informal community of people that cared about Mormon history long before there was even a Mormon Historical Association. Mormon History association. Right. That's right, yeah. Do you, do you think that as she's consulting these five or ten fans of Mormon history or semi scholars or scholars, do you think there's A sense that there were rumblings or rumors back with Joseph Fielding Smith or her uncle that this biography was about to come out, that it was going to be like a scandalous, you know, earth shattering kind of biography. Do you think the church was caught, surprised by this or do you think they knew this was coming?

Newell Bringhurst [01:28:17] Well, I, they, it wasn't a, it wasn't a state secret because she had actually started to look for publishers for the, for the manuscript. And she applied while the writing was still in a formal stage. She applied for a, what was called a Knopf. Alfred A. Knopf offered a kind of a, like a fellowship or a stipend to encourage, you know, that. She applied for that and with the understanding that they would publish the book. And she received this fellowship, it was called that, you know, it gave her a sum of money to work with and the promise that they would publish the book and that that was widely known.

Newell Bringhurst [01:29:10] It wasn't a secret. So, you know, and as she was doing research and trying to get access to the documents in Salt Lake and going to the Reorganized Church archives, I mean, those people all knew that this was forthcoming. And she made it clear it wasn't going to be an authorized, you know, biography and the tradition of what had been written previously about Joseph Smith. She made it clear it was going to be, you know, it was going to be a secular approach. It wasn't going to be a, you know, a faith promoting work. That became very evident.

John Dehlin [01:29:47] And Alfred Knopf's, you know, for those who aren't familiar with publishers, that's a major publisher.

Newell Bringhurst [01:29:52] Yeah, that was a big deal when she got that, when she got that fellowship.

Church Awareness and Response to the Book

John Dehlin [01:29:55] So is there any indication in the historical record that you came across where the church sort of like became afraid, became aware, became afraid, and even used their power, money and influence to try and prevent this book from being published or, or to intimidate her. Is there any sense that any of that happened before the book came out?

Newell Bringhurst [01:30:16] I, I, I came across nothing to indicate that the powers that be in the LDS Church were going to try to intimidate her or try to stop publication. But the one entity that did try to stop ultimate publication was the Reorganized Church. I mean, they made the biggest fuss beforehand. And actually they were trying to stop, they were going to try, they were going to try to sue Knopf, they were going to try to sue Brody for defamation of character because, you know, the leaders of the Reorganized Church were direct Smith descendants. I mean, it was like Israel Smith, who was a grandson of Joseph Smith was not happy with it, nor was his brother.

Newell Bringhurst [01:31:06] And I'm trying to think of his name. But the Smith family, the direct descendants of Joseph Smith, they were really upset when they, I guess they got a hold of some preliminary page proofs and they actually tried to stop ultimate publication, but then they backed off because they realized they really didn't have the ability or have a case to do that. But as for the LDS Church, they didn't try to stop publication prior to the book coming out in late 1945. It was only after 1945 that. That they started to come after her, but not before. Okay, before.

John Dehlin [01:31:45] So there's no sense that anyone tried to intimidate her not to publish a book. Oh, and I just think, you know, I always have a, you know, I've always. There's certain dates I always want to remember, and I kind of erected the scaffolding at some point in world. In American history, in 1945 is a. Is an important date because that's the year World War II ends, I think that's the year the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So it's kind of a tiny bit ironic that the bombs are dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki the same year that Fawn Brody drops a big old bomb, Joseph Smith bomb on the Mormon Church. It's a year that will live in infamy, we can say, in the church. Okay, so what do you know about what happens when the book drops and it's published?

Newell Bringhurst [01:32:37] Well, initially, there's the initial reaction. The church really kind of holds back. I mean, the response comes in a gradual way. The way that the book was originally conceived came in a gradual way as the church reacts in. In kind of a. Initially, nothing is really said when the, when the book is published. And then shortly after that, there are the.

Newell Bringhurst [01:33:09] There are direct, you know, indirect allusions to. To the book itself. Because in, In. In the conference in October, Conference of nine, I think it's in maybe it's the March conference, because the book comes out late. It comes out after the.

Newell Bringhurst [01:33:28] In late 45. So the first reaction comes from official sources in the March semiannual conference when several church leaders get up and defend the character of Joseph Smith and say, there are those out there without mentioning Fawn Brody by name, who would defame and, you know, try to say he was not who he claimed to be. I mean, they make indirect allusions to the book itself without actually mentioning Vaughn Brody's name or without mentioning the book initial. Those are the initial reaction. But as the book, the Book, when it comes out, it generates national attention. It does national attention there because at first they maybe think that maybe the book won't get that much notoriety or that much publicity.

Newell Bringhurst [01:34:23] But as the book becomes more and more noted and recognized nationally and starts to sell briskly, then the scale of attack increases very much after that. And you have a pamphlet that is published, the so called Brody book that really takes the book to task. And it's published anonymously. It's not a. It's unclear who actually wrote that pamphlet. I was unable to. That's the first pamphlet. Then of course it's Hugh Nibley's pamphlet.

John Dehlin [01:35:07] So there's a. You're saying there's a pamphlet that preceded.

Newell Bringhurst [01:35:10] That preceded.

John Dehlin [01:35:11] No, ma', am. That's not history. What can you tell us about that pamphlet?

Newell Bringhurst [01:35:15] Well, it goes into more detail in saying that Fawn Brodie's conclusions were not correct. And it tries to take the book on the various points of criticism. And it is a more substantial critique of the book than the Hugh Nibley one, which is more famous. It's ironic because this first one, because it's published without an author's name on it, but it doesn't receive the publicity that the Hugh Nibley. Because Hugh Nibley is kind of more sprightly written and it's almost written in a. And it has a certain jocular nature to it that the first critique didn't have. And she. In fact she makes remark. She says, well, the first pamphlet at least tried to make an effort to critique what I was trying to say. But Hughes Nibley was a flippant, superficial piece of scholarship. She doesn't even have the term scholarship. She just refers to. To as a flip. A little piece.

Carah Burrell [01:36:29] Is that available to read somewhere?

Newell Bringhurst [01:36:30] Yeah, yeah. Their. Their copy's available. Go down to benchmark the original.

John Dehlin [01:36:34] Okay, wait, so the original pamphlet you can get from Benchmark?

Newell Bringhurst [01:36:38] I would think so. I know I might. But it's probably in my papers at the University of Utah. I got a copy of it and it'd be. If you want to check out my papers because I contributed all my Brody materials to. To the University of Utah. So it would be available up there. If you can't find.

John Dehlin [01:37:00] So you don't remember. Do you happen to remember the name of the original pamphlet?

Newell Bringhurst [01:37:04] It. It was. I. I can look at that.

Carah Burrell [01:37:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] And Carrie, you can Google that too if you.

Newell Bringhurst [01:37:09] Yeah, yeah. I would call the so called critique of the so called Brody book. Let me see.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Okay. And I'm just. And maybe care. You can find that on Google as well. But I, I'm just super curious to know, number one, was it the church that commissioned the creation of that pamphlet?

Newell Bringhurst [01:37:31] The first one? Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] And then, and then I'm curious to know who would have written it, why they wouldn't put someone's name to it.

Newell Bringhurst [01:37:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:40] And then I'm just dying to know what the, what the arguments were, you know, when they're trying to defend the character of Joseph Smith. I'm just dying to know what, what the arguments were.

Newell Bringhurst [01:37:53] Yeah. So see Mormon denunciations. Here we go. Yeah, it's the, the, yeah, it was, it was entitled. Yeah, was. I guess it was actually I, I guess I spoke inaccurately. It says it was in the Church News section of the Deseret News presented an appointment appraisal of the so called Brodie book, a lengthy critique, and it criticized the book as being wholly atheistic, allowing no place in human experience for the transcendental.

Newell Bringhurst [01:38:39] This review conceded that it was easy to grant the author the merit of a fine literary style, which makes the book altogether enticing reading. But it was a style of the novelist and not the historian. So I guess I misspoke when I said it was published as a pamphlet.

Newell Bringhurst [01:39:02] Let me see if I. Yeah, maybe it was. Yeah. Because I talk about a second Mormon pamphlet. So it could have appeared initially in the Church News and then was subsequently it says, yeah, and then it goes on to say about this one, it was bedded in some very bad psychology.

Newell Bringhurst [01:39:25] And then I go on to say this critique apparently mirrored the official position of the Mormon Church, for it was still reprinted as a pamphlet and circulated as a missionary tract. So it was a pamphlet. So it could be available at Benchmark. And I know I have a copy in my papers up to the University of Utah. And then after that came Hugh Nibley's no Ma', am, that's not History. And by contrast, she says in response, Brodie remarked with regard to the two pamphlets, she said the church really let go with both barrels.

Newell Bringhurst [01:40:03] She found the appraisal of the so called Brodie book the first pamphlet, well written, clever piece of Mormon propaganda. But she had nothing but contempt for Nibley's no ma' Am that, no, that's not history, dismissing it as a flippant and shallow piece.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] Yeah, and that's, I mean this is the birth, this is the birth of modern Mormon apologetics, is the emergence of this book. Because you look at, you know, there was that whole Daniel Peterson era and, and farms and then the Maxwell Institute, Lou Midgley and Fair Mormon kind of carried on this legacy, of not really wanting to deal honestly and accurately with the substance of the criticisms, but finding any way to create smoke screens, distractions.

John Dehlin [01:40:52] And to some extent, apologists are still doing that to this day with people like Kwaku and Cardinalis and others. But I do find it interesting that originally there's a church news article that tries to deal substantively with it. And I'm guessing that the church realized, wow, we can't win on the substance of the arguments. And so we've got to go ad hominem. And that's when Hugh Nibley first comes on the scene. And I never knew about this first pamphlet. That's why I'm asking Carah maybe to Google it to see if she can. And I'll just ask listeners, listeners, if any of you can help us find that original pamphlet and even preferably a link on the Web to the Deseret News article.

John Dehlin [01:41:34] That would have been the first review of. Of no Man Knows My History. I want to see what the church's substantive, well, what, what Brody calls propaganda. I want to see what that propaganda was here, there, hear the way they justify what came out in the book, first of all. So I'm just, I, I want to do an episode on that. Are you finding something, Carah?

Carah Burrell [01:41:55] I haven't found it quite yet, but I, I am going to link in the show notes. It's kind of an excerpt from your book that you're reading. I was able to find kind of what you just read, and I'm going to put that in the show notes. And I find it fascinating. So are you saying that Hugh Nibley is kind of like, as somebody who's adjacent to the church, that he doesn't necessarily represent the church?

Early Reviews and Official Church Criticism

Newell Bringhurst [01:42:12] He's at byu. He's a young BYU professor at the

Carah Burrell [01:42:15] time, but he's kind of allowed to speak more in his opinion. Whereas opposed to the first pamphlet is straight from the church itself. Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] That's kind of what, that's a good point because. Because basically part of the tactic that the church ends up adopting is for a long, long time they push it off until. Until the Gospel topics essays. There are no. The church says we're not going to give official responses. We're going to create these personalities that aren't officially speaking for the church, certainly not prophet seers and revelators or apostles. We'll get these personality types like Nibley and then Peterson and then Midgley and John Welch and others. We'll have these personalities use rhetoric to defend the church, but always at an arm's length from any official response until the essays.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] You know, the Church is forced to come out with the Gospel topics essays, you know, by, by the early 2010s with the Swedish Rescue and others. But I'm just, I just think it's an important, important moment in Mormon history and Mormon apologetics that this is when Hugh Nibley comes on the scene. Not B H Roberts, who was an apologist in a sense, but you just, you always got the sense that B.H. roberts was, was a man of integrity. He was honest, he cared about science and accuracy. And of course he was like set off on a mission once the Church realized he was getting to the bottom of the Church's problems with the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:43:38] We have Hugh Nibley coming on the scene by the mid-1940s as, as a new type of Mormon apologist. And I, I remember once I discovered no man Knows My History, which I was afraid to read for another seven or eight years after I learned about the book I, the first thing I ever read regarding Fawn Brody was Hugh Nibley's pamphlet. No ma', am, that's not history. And I, I, I don't remember even reading anything about Joseph Smith. It really was just an ad hominem snarky attack on Brody doing its best to avoid any credible substantive matters that Brody would have brought up. Is that right?

Newell Bringhurst [01:44:21] Yeah, well, it really, really was a. Much inferior to the, to the first.

Carah Burrell [01:44:27] Okay, yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, yeah. Just to really slam dunk John's point there. That's exactly what I'm reading. That's so interesting that it was written by a church council. The, it's called Appraisal of the so called Brody Book that's published in Deseret News 5-11-1946 and written by a church committee similar maybe to the way the Gospel Topics essays.

Newell Bringhurst [01:44:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:56] So it's interesting that the church would have started off with this idea of a church sponsored committee to respond to critics and they quickly abandoned that idea for another 60 or 70 years. That's that. Okay, so you're finding a link to that, not the actual article.

Carah Burrell [01:45:10] I'm still looking for the article.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:45:12] It's probably on some type of film somewhere.

John Dehlin [01:45:14] Yeah, some microfiche, some microfish working on it. Yeah. Interesting. Okay Noel, that's great info and Carah, thank you for looking that up. And listeners. Ben, you know I just had, I had breakfast with, with Chris Bench the other day. I'm sure maybe Chris or someone else. We should do an episode Carah, on the Church's original response to no man Knows My History. I think that would be fascinating.

Carah Burrell [01:45:37] Yeah. And is the point you're making that just like they are going to be denying things that they now publish in their church essays, and it's going to be a clear distinction between things they said right now.

John Dehlin [01:45:45] Wouldn't that be fun?

Carah Burrell [01:45:46] And then today, they literally acknowledge it. It's the same revelatory revelators, seers, apostles, saying two completely contradictory things.

John Dehlin [01:45:55] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:45:56] Claire's Day.

John Dehlin [01:45:56] Well, Brody calls it proper, the first pamphlet, propaganda. But at least it sounds like she had a little more respect for it because at least it tried to address the substantive issues.

Newell Bringhurst [01:46:05] Yeah. And, yeah, that's to her credit. She did.

John Dehlin [01:46:08] Thank you, Newell, for helping us learn about that. That's. That's something we need to look into. Okay, so Hugh Nibley. Hugh Nibley writes his response as well. So let's just get to the aftermath of. Of. Of the release of the book. So it's getting national attention. Desert News responds. Hugh Nibley responds. What happens next?

Newell Bringhurst [01:46:27] Well, I mean, is.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] Is. Is David O. McKay profit by 1945?

Newell Bringhurst [01:46:32] No, he. He doesn't become president until 51. He's still in the First Presidency by. Yeah, by this time, he, you know, he's a second counselor in the First Presidency. And so he is very angry about.

John Dehlin [01:46:47] At his niece.

Newell Bringhurst [01:46:49] Yeah. And he doesn't. It's interesting, in public, he doesn't attack her directly. He kind of alludes to her in a kind of a. What I call an allegorical way, in a short story or in kind of a sermon that he gives about Dandy, a horse who is a rebellious horse that can't be reined in. And Dandy kind of wanders from. You know, he's kind of one of these kind of rebellious creatures, and he wanders from the barn, and he partakes of some poisonous grain and subsequently dies. And I guess I should read that little homily that he wrote. Is it okay if I.

John Dehlin [01:47:41] Who's this?

Newell Bringhurst [01:47:42] This is David O. McKay. He's referring to his niece, although not by name, through this allegorical story called Dandy. And it's. Let me see if I can.

John Dehlin [01:47:55] Is this in a talk. Is this like.

Newell Bringhurst [01:47:57] Yeah, this is a talk. Let me. Yeah, yeah, let me go to the. To the. I can give you the full detail of this.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] So is it. I mean, as you're looking. I guess I'm wondering if he's trying to smear.

Newell Bringhurst [01:48:09] Yeah, he.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] The reputation.

Newell Bringhurst [01:48:11] Yeah. What he does, it's. It's an address. He Gives a Brigham Young. He tells a story that clearly alludes to Fawn.

John Dehlin [01:48:18] Let's find that, let's see if we can find that character in the show.

Newell Bringhurst [01:48:21] Notes. And, and, and anyway, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. And he tells a story of Dandy, a well bred colt of good disposition and clean, well rounded eyes, well proportioned and all in all a choice equine possession. But Dandy resented restraint. He was ill content when tied and would nibble at the tie rope until he was free. One day Dandy broke out of the pasture and got into the neighbor's sack of grain which had been poisoned as bait for rodents. Within a few minutes, Dandy was in spasmodic pain and shortly thereafter he died. McKay, David Old concluded the story. My heart aches this morning because one who is pretty close to me failed, violated constraints in childhood, broke and later broke through the fence of consideration and decency, found the poison grain of unbelief, and now languishes in spiritual apathy and decay. That's kind of. Oh, McKay.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] So, I mean, when you think about, like Jeffrey R. Holland this year, publicly deriding Matt Easton, you know, for, for the BYU valedictorian, just for stating in his valedictorian speech that he was gay, just stating his identity. We were really upset that a prophet seared revelator would publicly demean, basically accused Matt Easton of commandeering, you know, the graduation ceremony at BYU. This is David O. McKay as a member of the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [01:50:16] Really, I mean, associating his niece with like poison and death and, and faithlessness in a way that's, that's really given his status and his power. That's kind of. And you think of David. I've read, you know, Greg Prince's book, David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. Greg Prince paints David O. McKay as this kind, loving, friendly, diplomatic, respectful person. So it's hard for me to think about David O. McKay as one who would in essence, publicly smear the reputation of his niece in a, in a position of intense power and then publicly deride her to the entire church membership. That's not The David O. McKay I think of when I read Greg Prince's book.

Newell Bringhurst [01:51:10] Well, as a corrective, I would urge you to read a piece that I wrote on David O. McKay that was published in A Dialogue a number of years ago. It was kind of a spin off of my research on Fawn Brody because I got to know not only Fawn Brody and her family dynamics, but David O. McKay. I give a somewhat different side of David O. McKay in it and it was published as an essay in Dimensions of Faith that was put out several years ago.

John Dehlin [01:51:41] What would the approximate title be?

Newell Bringhurst [01:51:43] It was the Public and private David O. McKay.

John Dehlin [01:51:46] So that's a Dialogue article.

Newell Bringhurst [01:51:48] It was originally a dialogue article that was republished in an anthology. It was edited by I think his name was Waterman, was the editor of I believe it was, I can't remember for sure. But it's, it's in, it's in a volume published by Signature Books called yeah. Dimensions of Faith.

John Dehlin [01:52:07] Okay. And Dialogues archives and everyone needs to just spend if you care about Mormon history. All of Dialogues, you know, publications are available in PDFs online so we'll be able to create a link to that article. But can you summarize? We'll include that the show notes. Carah.

Carah Burrell [01:52:24] Oh, and I also, I think the book Appraisal, so called Brody book is available at a few libraries in the University of Utah, Brigham Young University Held Library. So not everyone jump on it at once. But somebody find that book and if

John Dehlin [01:52:39] anybody can get us a PDF of that, of that article, I, I'll take care and I will personally take you to lunch or dinner or brunch as a thank you. But, but Noel, what's the essence? You like that, Noel? Noel, what's the essence of the private and the public side of David O. McKay that you tried to share in your dialogue piece?

David O. McKay's Personal and Public Reaction

Newell Bringhurst [01:53:00] Well, kind of going, I guess getting, doing an aside. But I found that he had this hard edged, you know, aspect to his personality besides the side, you know, they show him as the compassionate, caring, beloved family man, you know, who is very much, you know, his and just kind of the soft spoken. But he had this kind of arrogant side to him and kind of a hard edged side to him that this is what I tried to emphasize that he had very much of an ego. I mean he, he's the only church leader that wore white suits and that kind of gave him, you know, that I, I don't know if you're aware of that, that he stood out because he always wore these white suits whereas everybody else was wearing the dark suits. And that was a way of like

John Dehlin [01:53:58] a Mark Twain figure, right?

Newell Bringhurst [01:53:59] Yeah, almost like a Mark Twain figure. I mean that's a good comparison. And white hair. Yeah. I found that to be a fascinating and as I say, Signature Books was so impressed with my article that they included it in the lead article in this anthology that they produced Dimensions of Faith. It also received an award from Dialogue as the best article it was received the Lowell Bennion Best Article award the year it came out.

John Dehlin [01:54:31] Yeah. And as someone who, who had lunch with Elder Holland twice, these, you know, we think of them as just being spiritual, kind, loving men. And I think that's a dimension to their personality. And I found Jeffrey R. Holland to be friendly and warm and funny and charming and engaging. But what we all have to remember is these men have probably been carefully curated into their position based on fierce loyalty to the church and willingness above all else, to defend the church at all costs. And so all this niceness in the show, there's kind of probably a good cop, bad cop to their own personalities

John Dehlin [01:55:16] where they, sure, they can be charming and lovely and diplomatic, but if you cross a certain line, you get the real, or at least a real side of them, which is they'll come after you. They'll take you down publicly if they have to, if they feel like you're attacking the church.

Newell Bringhurst [01:55:33] Well, I mean, we all have complex personalities. We all have our, we have our altruistic sides and we have our, our less than altruistic sides. I mean, that, that's just the, the complexity of the human being. We, we have, we have these, you know, multifaceted. And that's the way it was with Lon Brody. That's the way it was with David O. McKay. And. Yeah, and so it's interesting because Greg Prince, for the great job that he did on the. David O. McKay and I critiqued it. I ended up, we did a Sunstone session many years ago, right after Greg Prince's biography came out. And I, I pointed out the inconsistencies, the way that he treated Fawn Brody.

Newell Bringhurst [01:56:23] I mean, he relates an incident in there which he got from an oral history which I shared with him, how David O. McKay really didn't have that much animosity toward Fawn Brody. And it turned out to be. He put this in the book. And I took Greg to task for, you know, I said, well, this is something that was related third hand by Russ Mortensen, who I interviewed. You know, it was like a third hand account how David O. McKay responded to his niece. I mean, Russ Mortensen, who I interviewed about who brought out this incident.

Newell Bringhurst [01:57:04] I guess I don't know where he got it from, but it, you know, as far as I could tell, it had never happened because when I looked at the way the family related David O. McKay's reaction to no man of history, he would never speak to her again. He ignored her at family gatherings and so on. And so Greg had created a Little bit of a fiction in relating that incident, which I really. And he just sort of looked at me kind of, you know, well, why is Newell bringing this up? But I, you know, that was one of the sore spots. But in what was.

Newell Bringhurst [01:57:47] Otherwise, I think he did a pretty good job with. But he never really got into the personality of David O. McKay himself. You know, the book is written as a series of episodes and, you know, incidents in David O. McKay's career. It's almost like a. An overview of his role as a church leader and as a prophet. Unlike what I did with Fawn Brody, he never got into the essential personality and dynamics of the man himself, only in a superficial way. Here I'm going off critiquing. I didn't mean to get off.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] Well, that's important. I just think. Understanding David.

Newell Bringhurst [01:58:23] Critiquing Prince. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:58:25] Well, I just think if we're talking about plot characters, the fact that David O. McKay was first presidency member, eventual prophet, and uncle to Fawn Brody, he's an important character in the story. So talking about his personality, I think, is central to this entire discussion.

Newell Bringhurst [01:58:41] Yeah, yeah. And I think it, and it's really important. They, they, they, they said that he, you know, everybody I talked to, family members, said he just had, you know, he really had a strong ego.

John Dehlin [01:58:54] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [01:58:55] Of who he was, and, and he, he projected that. And, you know, I. I urge. I urge you to read my article on David O. McKay. I think you'll find it revelatory not to.

John Dehlin [01:59:09] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [01:59:10] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] So. So the book comes out in 45.

Newell Bringhurst [01:59:13] Right.

John Dehlin [01:59:14] And David O. McKay isn't prophet yet. The, The Church News pamphlet comes out. Hugh Nibley's pamphlet comes out. How does the drama. How does the Church's reaction to the book and their treatment of Fawn Brody unfold? And what does that do to Fawn Brody as she starts to be on the receiving end of the church's attacks?

Newell Bringhurst [01:59:37] Well, she's really stung by David O. McKay's, you know, characterization. She says, you know, she says, I don't know what, what, what my uncle was referring to when he said, Isaac, you know, a rebellious, you know, restless child. She says, I was a model child. And, you know, as I related earlier, all the way through my early life, I never engaged in even a healthy amount of mischief. And she was just really, you know, hurt by that, you know, and as I say, they never had a relationship after that. And so she strongly believes that he was the primary moving force behind her ultimate excommunication. She is convinced And I think other family members are pretty much convinced that he was the one that pushed forward that she be excommunicated from the church because she was not only an embarrassment to the family, but she was an embarrassment to the church.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] Yeah, exactly.

Newell Bringhurst [02:00:40] Because the book had received national publicity and national recognition, was a national bestseller. And you know, and it sold briskly even in Utah. People. It was flying off the shelf of bookstores in Utah when it came out. I mean they. And so the church knew that it had to respond to it because church members were picking this up and reading it.

John Dehlin [02:01:05] Sorry. I want to hear what you're going to say, Carah. I just want to say that kind of makes David O. McKay the father of. Of Mormon ad hominem attacks. Because that's what he does. He does that to his own niece first.

Carah Burrell [02:01:20] You took my mind.

John Dehlin [02:01:21] Oh, go ahead, Carah. Sorry.

Carah Burrell [02:01:22] Exactly what I was gonna say. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:01:23] Say. Yeah, please say it your way. You're better.

Carah Burrell [02:01:25] No, no, that's. That's literally the father of ad hominem attacks. I was like, isn't that interesting that this is like such a clear, crisp example of somebody who couldn't know Fawn better than her own kin, than her own uncle. Right. That he knows her true character, that she wasn't a rebellious child believer, smart, sincere. And the last tactic that they have at their disposal, that they've tried everything and people are still. They're still flying off the shelves and he has to smear her by calling her rebellious and just completely like crapping on her character. That's incredible. And it's tales oldest time too. Just classic.

John Dehlin [02:02:01] Well, I mean when modern day apologists use that homonym and they're still doing it. It. They've got prophet seers and revelators as giving them license because they started it. I mean, is that.

Carah Burrell [02:02:13] Yeah, that's a great point too.

John Dehlin [02:02:15] Is that fair? No.

Newell Bringhurst [02:02:17] Well, I mean it certainly gives it the ampamata of. Of. Of church sanctioning to. To do those things, you know?

John Dehlin [02:02:26] Yeah. That's where Hugh Nibble gets it from David O. McKay. Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:02:30] Yeah. Well, I. Well, actually the pamphlet. I think the pamphlet came out before. I'm not sure about the timing because I didn't really track it down. His BYU speech and Hugh Nibley's pamphlet. I'm not sure what the sequence of events was, so I can't really answer that question definitively.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] Yeah. As to when The David O. McKay

Newell Bringhurst [02:02:53] story about the dandy, the horse, you're

John Dehlin [02:02:56] not sure when that comes out?

Newell Bringhurst [02:02:57] When that came vis A vis Hugh Nibley's pamphlet. If one influenced the other or the other way around or whatever. I, you know, I. But, but, I mean, it was a pretty. You know, both of those were pretty stunning, especially the dandy story, because it

John Dehlin [02:03:13] was so personal and so she was sad that her uncle smeared her character in such a.

Newell Bringhurst [02:03:18] Well, as I say, he. He was angry. He was. I mean, angry to the point where it appears that he was a prime moving force. And I guess initially they started to think about excommunication early on.

John Dehlin [02:03:35] In what year?

Newell Bringhurst [02:03:36] Around what year this would be in early 46. But the actual excommunication came later because I guess they had considered it maybe even as early as late 45, right after the book came, but that they. But they said no, that would be making a martyr out of her. So the. The initial talk about excommunication was early on, and, And I think probably at that time they were hoping maybe the book wouldn't achieve the widespread recognition and, And. And sales and. And everything that it did. Maybe if they waited long enough, it would go away, you know, or, or it would. It would dissipate. But as

Newell Bringhurst [02:04:16] the book becomes more and more recognized and the sales become very brisk and it gets a lot of notice both locally and nationally, they have no other choice but to, especially as church members read it and they're saying, gosh, is this really true? They really have to come back and say, no, this obviously wasn't true as reflected in the fact that she's being excommunicated for apostasy.

Excommunication and Its Aftermath

John Dehlin [02:04:44] So when was she around? What year was she.

Newell Bringhurst [02:04:47] This was late 46, I think it's June. Let me see.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] She was excommunicated around 46 or so.

Newell Bringhurst [02:04:52] Well, she was excluded In, In. In. In. In the middle of 46. It was. Let me see the exact. And that's something I. I thought I'd never forget. The. I. I should leave.

John Dehlin [02:05:03] It's been like 25 years since you passed.

Newell Bringhurst [02:05:04] Yeah, it was. It was, I think in June. I. Yeah, let me, Let me, Let me.

John Dehlin [02:05:09] You're thinking 46.

Newell Bringhurst [02:05:10] Yeah, it's definitely 1946. But it's the date. The exact date is the trial and the excommunication comes in. Yeah, as I say, they, they. That, that, that. That. They were talking about excommunication as early as late 45. But the actual excommunication didn't come until June. Okay, I've got the date here. It was the 1st of June, 1946.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] And who's president of the church in 46.

Newell Bringhurst [02:05:50] And in 46, it's by. By this time, it's George Albert Smith. He. He has taken over from Heber J. Grant because he came in. In.

John Dehlin [02:06:01] Do we know if Fawn Brody attended her disciplinary counsel?

Newell Bringhurst [02:06:04] No, she didn't. They issued the summons. And so she was in the late stages of pregnancy. That's why she didn't attend, because she was pregnant with her second child, Bruce, living in Chateau, and they were living at the time in Connecticut. They were living in Bethany, in New Haven, Connecticut. So she would have had to come down from Connecticut to Boston because the excommunication procedures were held. I think it was in Boston or Cambridge where the church headquarters was.

John Dehlin [02:06:38] Was someone studying at Yale?

Newell Bringhurst [02:06:40] Well, that's where her husband was a professor on the faculty. Yeah, he was on the faculty of the political science department at Yale at that time. New Haven.

John Dehlin [02:06:52] So do we have, like, correspondence? Did she talk to her bishop, her stake president? No. Is there any written correspondence of the church saying, you're acting in apostasy? We don't like this. Are they giving her warnings? Is there any correspondence about sort of her being warned or threatened or chastised or counseled with, even?

Newell Bringhurst [02:07:13] It's a very sparse. I got a hold of the. I was able, in going through the minutes, I was able to get to the. Of that particular stake, and it was very sparse. All it said that you're, you know, she was guilty of apostasy. Let me see.

Newell Bringhurst [02:07:38] Here it goes. It was presided over by a guy named the stake president, mission president. It was a mission. William H. Reeder was the mission president, and the actual proceedings were presided over by him. And they were very brief, concluding in a matter of minutes.

Newell Bringhurst [02:08:05] And President Reeder, after considering the evidence, declared that Fawn Brody, through her book, was guilty of teaching false doctrine, specifically of denying the divine nature of Mormonism and the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. It was thus his judgment that she be excommunicated from the church.

Newell Bringhurst [02:08:28] That's all it said. So it was a pretty sparse proceeding in terms of what evidence was presented. It was just, you know, pretty. Pretty. That was it.

John Dehlin [02:08:37] And I just. I'm dying to be a fly on the wall of 1946. Did they ever stop and say, is what she wrote in the book true and factual? And I'm curious, do you think that all this truth about Joseph Smith, the actual factual history. Because she got it pretty much all right. Her book. I read her forward or her notes about the second edition, and she basically makes the point that she. She adds a little bit to the second edition, but she basically says pretty much everything I wrote in the first edition has not been a. Overturned. And even, even when Richard Bushman comes out with rough stone rolling, I'm pretty sure that no man knows my history was the most cited reference in rough stone rolling.

Newell Bringhurst [02:09:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] And so I just, I want to be a fly on the wall. In 1946, did the brethren know. Did the First Presidency in the Quorum of the Twelve know all this about Joseph Smith? Or were they all learning this for the first time from Fawn Brody? Or did they even bother to read the book and ever stopped to ask if she was actually telling the truth? Or did that, did they not even care at that point about the actual truth? Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:09:45] Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have access to the, to the journals and the papers of the minutes?

John Dehlin [02:09:52] Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:09:52] And you know, even the minutes of what was being, you know, what was being discussed with relationship and, and those things are, are not available. And so we really don't know whether to the answers to all of those questions that you are asking. It'd be wonderful if we had access to the, you know, to the private journals, to the, to the minutes, to, you know, exchanges or communication amongst them because I'm sure they had a great deal to say about the book. A lot more than we're aware of at present. And those things are, you know, as we're well aware, unavailable.

John Dehlin [02:10:36] Intentionally. Intentionally unavailable. And Carah, I mean, I'm just thinking, like I've always got in my mind this book that I'm putting together of like the history of the church deceiving its members in the 20th century. And the year so far, 1912 with the book of Abraham, New York Times article, 1922 with B.H. roberts. And now we've added a third year, which is 1946, where instead of the church confronting the problems about Joseph Smith head on, they're put on national notice about the problems with Joseph Smith. What do they do? They don't read the book and say, okay, what's true? What do they do? Carah?

Carah Burrell [02:11:16] They act like if we just excommunicate her, it'll all go away.

John Dehlin [02:11:20] Shut her up. Right? Yeah. So that's the third year. Noel, maybe you can tell us if there's other important years before 1946. But those are three years that stick out in my mind is really influential for the church.

Newell Bringhurst [02:11:31] Yeah, I mean, it's very important. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:34] I mean, I guess there's the evolution. Whatever year that evolution scandal breaks out at byu. We've got to add that year as one of the four big years in the early to mid 20th century. Right. Because that's when the church is put on notice that evolution is a real thing. Right?

Newell Bringhurst [02:11:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:50] Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so what do we do? You know, what, What Fon Brody's feelings and thoughts were.

Newell Bringhurst [02:11:57] I mean, she was. Yeah, I. I didn't believe, so.

John Dehlin [02:12:01] I mean, that's always the big thing. When, like, Bill Real or I or Sam Young, Rex communicated, or Kate Kelly, it's always like, well, they didn't believe anyway, so excommunication's no big deal.

Newell Bringhurst [02:12:11] Well, for her, you know, she had stopped attending and. And had ceased all activity in the church and subway. And then the end of her activity was when she was still at the University of Chicago. So she hadn't been an active practicing Mormon for a number of years.

Newell Bringhurst [02:12:33] But her immediate reaction was she suspected that David O. McKay had. Had played a central role in her excommunication. That was her, you know, that was a part of her reaction. And she says, I suppose I shall never know exactly what brought the action about, but if my uncle did push the thing through, such action wouldn't surprise me. She goes on to say. And then she goes on to say that she felt that he felt the necessity of disassociating himself from her in the most dramatic fashion possible and believing that he would be condemned if she were treated with leniency. This is what her reaction and his anger at her personally would have moved him to take such drastic action.

Newell Bringhurst [02:13:33] That was her reaction against Joseph Smith. But it. David O'. McKenzie. Yeah, David O. McKay. So she's referring to. But then at the same time, it brought emotional vulnerability. She admitted to family and friends that the action symbolized so dramatically that the fact that my bridges had really been irrevocably burned home will never be the same again. That's why she. That's what she said.

Newell Bringhurst [02:14:03] She sought out her favorite uncle, Dean Brimhall, and she was reportedly in tears when she confronted her, you know, her favorite uncle, Dean in Brimhall. This is reportedly in tears, I couldn't find.

John Dehlin [02:14:19] But do you know how Dean reacted?

Newell Bringhurst [02:14:20] Yeah. So members of the McKay's, Brody's immediate family discounted reports of her emotional response, that she did respond in tears, recalling her as less conflicted by the excommunication. So it was hard to determine. You know, I mean, you have this one report that she came to tears to her uncle, but you got other family members saying, well, she wasn't all, you know, she wasn't that emotionally, whatever her emotional state, Brody was sensitive to her parents situation. She sought to reassure both her mother and father that the excommunication itself meant nothing except insofar as it might make you unhappy. So that's how she responded to her family.

Newell Bringhurst [02:15:09] It bothers me insofar as it might make you unhappy. And then she goes on to say, it's really a very little thing, she told them. And perhaps the logical outcome of an evolutionary process in my own thinking and acting, she was in fact quite satisfied to be considered a rebel by church authorities.

Newell Bringhurst [02:15:32] And to be taken this seriously, she added, might almost be considered a compliment. Yeah, that's what. Yeah, so that's what. So, so anyway, that's her. Yeah. And then she sought to put the whole affair quickly behind her as focusing her attention on other matters.

John Dehlin [02:15:53] Yeah, like I, I think 1946 begins the year where Mormon excommunication for apostasy becomes a badge of honor. Because if you, from 1946 on, if you get excommunicated for apostasy, it's probably because you spoke the truth about the church and its history and the church didn't like it and wanted to silence you. And, and I think Bill Real and Sam Young and Kate Kelly and myself and others, Leah and Cody Young, we feel not shamed by the excommunication, but proud. And I think we wear excommunication as a. As a badge. Paul, Paul Toscano and Margaret Toscano talked about this as well. Yeah, we kind of.

John Dehlin [02:16:35] I think Paul Toscano once called Mormon excommunication for apostasy something like the most sacred Mormon sacrament of all, because it basically means that you've lived up to the Church's ideal of truth, being important and being courageous and doing what is right and letting the consequence follow. Anyway, I just have huge props to Fawn Brody. And it makes me feel good that she wear, Wore her. She reflected on her excommunication with pride, in confidence, just like I think I ended up feeling as well. So I feel a kinship to Fon Brody in that regard. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:13] So. All right, so. So, Newell, I'm curious what, what the. Okay, but, but the other thing I want to say is excommunication is still a violent act. It offends, it puts your parents in a hard spot, your siblings, your aunts, your uncles, your grandparents, your cousins. It kind of. It spoils your home, your family and your community in really material ways. And in that way, it shames you in your tribe, it shames you in your community. And I Think what I heard you say is that she never. She said, home will never be the same again. Is that right?

Newell Bringhurst [02:17:47] Right. And family have told me that when they, you know, various family members getting back to the relationship with McKay, that whenever they have, you know, they had extended family, McKay family reunions, they were always generally held in Huntsville. So she'd go back to Huntsville every year. And according to family members, David O. McKay and Fawn Brody just avoided each other. I mean, he never had anything further to do with her. And so that's why I come back to the Gregory Prince thing. That was completely fabricated.

John Dehlin [02:18:24] Yeah. Yeah. That's not classy. So David O. McKay didn't treat her pastorally with love and care and kindness.

Newell Bringhurst [02:18:30] No, certainly not. He.

John Dehlin [02:18:32] He did not treat her as Jesus would treat someone who had sinned. You know, he. He gave her the cold shoulder and treated her like she didn't exist. And that's a prophet, Syrian revelator, you know, of God, a special witness of Christ. Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:18:48] Well, as I say, he. He. He was angry and bitter over the embarrassment that she. That. That she had brought not only to the church, but to the family. Yeah, I mean, that was. That was where he was coming from. He was, you know, as I say, he. He. There was this public images. Public image of. Of. Of love in the home, harmony and all of that. That was David McKay's favorite hymn was Love at Home.

John Dehlin [02:19:20] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you look at. Now, like, Carah and I just spent an entire weekend with, like, four, 40 or 45 Mormons in faith crisis. And by far, the number one most traumatic thing we saw were people that were. That had, you know, they'd either lost close family relationships because of their faith crisis, or they had been cut off completely or divorced or whatever. That. That behavior of ostracizing and cutting family off because of faith differences, again, it ties directly to Jesus, but it also ties directly to our top church leadership, because David O. McKay sets the example here. Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:20:01] Well, he's.

John Dehlin [02:20:02] It's church before family. Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:20:04] Well, I think it was his. His own personal image had a lot to do with it. I mean, he's maintaining this public Persona, you know, at the same time that he's not always acting that way in private. You know, as I say, that was the theme of. That's how I interpreted his life. And I found it to be. In some ways, he was almost as fascinating as Fawn Brody, but in a different perspective.

John Dehlin [02:20:34] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [02:20:34] And so I was a little bit disappointed with. Greg's. A fine piece of scholarship in terms of the sources he had, but it didn't do quite the job that I had hoped it would.

John Dehlin [02:20:48] Yeah, he was trying to make kind of a hero out of David Lindsey.

Newell Bringhurst [02:20:51] Yeah. It's interesting because Greg has his issues with the church, as you're well aware. I don't know how well.

John Dehlin [02:20:57] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [02:20:57] Oh, yeah, I don't know how well, you know, has a gay sister who had left and has become an Episcopal.

John Dehlin [02:21:02] Unitarian.

Newell Bringhurst [02:21:03] Unitarian. Yeah. And yeah, I guess Unitarian Isn't his sister's partner the Episcopal bishop of.

John Dehlin [02:21:13] No, I think that's the Irish Kathleen Tanner. Irish who just passed away. But my understanding is, is that David, that Greg Prince's sister, she's gay, she's

Newell Bringhurst [02:21:23] a lesbian, she's gay.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] And that she. She or her partner ran the Unitarian church. Oh, they did here in kind of South Salt Lake, San Diego.

Newell Bringhurst [02:21:32] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [02:21:33] Yeah. Not. Not unit. Not Episcopalian.

Newell Bringhurst [02:21:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:21:35] Unitarian. Okay, that's fine. Okay. So yeah, David O. McKay's love at home publicly, but privately he's ostracizing and alienating his family members that lose their faith. Are you surprised?

Carah Burrell [02:21:48] No, but I mean, the structure of the church is authoritarian. It's dogmatic. It's like you said, the church before family. So yeah, you'll have love at home if you kick the people out who don't agree with you.

John Dehlin [02:22:00] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:22:01] Everything will be peaceful if they're sitting outside.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] Yeah, that's sad. Sad and dark. Okay, well, how did Fawn Brody pick up the pieces? After being, well, cut off from her

Life After Excommunication and Later Career

Newell Bringhurst [02:22:11] trial, she went on with her life. I mean, became a doting, caring mother. Because right after the excommunication, her second son, Bruce is born. And then some four years after that, after she goes through the trauma of two miscarriages, her third and final child, Pam Pamela is born in 1950. And so she really engages herself in the role of being a full time mother. But at the same time, she still has this drive to do research and writing and she moves on into non Mormon topics.

Newell Bringhurst [02:22:53] But she still maintains a lively interest in. In Mormon scholarship and so on and does a number of articles dealing with different issues and personalities and things within the LDS church. But her major focus in terms of writing and research are on non Mormon topics. I mean, she goes on to write a very definitive biography of Thaddeus Stevens, which takes her an inordinate amount of time to write. She doesn't complete the Thaddeus Stevens biography until 1959.

Newell Bringhurst [02:23:30] I like to point out that it took her as long to write her biography of Thaddeus Stevens as it took me to write my biography of Fawn Brody. We both took 13 years to write our respective biographies. And so I kind of identified with.

Newell Bringhurst [02:23:47] With Fawn in what she was going through when she was doing Thaddeus Stevens. And that got very good reviews. It's probably the least controversial of all of her books. It got universally very positive reviews from the historical community. It really cemented her status as a legitimate American historian. It gave a revisionist view of Reconstruction. It dealt with. Because Thaddeus Stevens was a leader of Reconstruction, the father of the post slavery, basically. Right. Well, he was an abolitionist and he was the father of the 14th amendment, probably one of the most important of all of the amendments, of the amendments in the U.S. constitution. And she went on from there to do a fascinating biography of Richard Burton.

Newell Bringhurst [02:24:39] Not the Elizabeth Taylor Richard Burton, but Richard Burton, who was a British explorer. He was exploring. He was a guy that was renowned as an explorer of Africa. He was a visitor to America. And she got interested in Richard Burton because he had come to Utah and she had previously edited a book written by Richard Burton on.

Newell Bringhurst [02:25:07] On Utah and the Mormons. So it kind of got her a little bit back into Mormon history from that perspective. But the thrust of the biography was on the complete life of Richard Burton, this international explorer, kind of a controversial guy. According to her, she was always interested in issues dealing with sex. I mean, that was one of the things that's fascinating about Fawn Brody was her topics all had a of sense, strong sexual element to it. Obviously with Joseph Smith, but with Thaddeus Stevens it was in his relationship with his black slave or black, she wasn't a slave, but his African American servant or housekeeper.

Newell Bringhurst [02:25:53] He got involved in a relationship with her. And then with Richard Burton, the whole sexual thing that comes in is according to Brody, he was interested in all things sexual, sort of like Vaughn Brody was. And to quote Fawn Brody, Richard Burton tried everything in the sexual market. That was one of the famous quotes that he made. And then of course from there, after Richard Burton was published in 67. 19. 1967, she went on to do her most successful, her most widely acclaimed and in some ways probably the most controversial of her biographies. And that of course, was her Thomas Jefferson An Intimate History, where she gets into the whole thing with this relationship with his black slave mistress, Sally Hemings.

Newell Bringhurst [02:26:49] And. And then from there that was published in 74. And that really established her as a historian of national renown. And meanwhile she was becoming a full professor at UCLA in the history department, well established Even though she never got her doctorate and both of her degrees were not in history but in English, she actually secured tenure as a tenured, which is very unusual. She was a woman and she didn't have.

Newell Bringhurst [02:27:23] But she broke barriers in a number of ways when she was at ucla, thanks to the quality of her scholarship. But by the time she got to UCLA as a full professor, she had also done the Thomas Jefferson biography, which was published.

Newell Bringhurst [02:27:44] They're published by W.W. norton. Her last four books were all published by Norton rather than Knopf. Because she got into some issues with Knopf over her Thaddeus Stevens manuscript. They gave up on her. They thought she'd never finish it because it took her 13 years to write it. And they say you're on your own, you got to find another publisher. And so that's why she ended up going with WWE Norton, which is very, you know, as prestigious and as famous as Knopf, W.W. norton. And they published her four subsequent books.

Newell Bringhurst [02:28:20] And of course the Thomas Jefferson book became a national bestseller. It was on the New York Times bestseller list for 13 weeks. It made her over, it's been estimated at the time, it made her at least 500 sold thousands of copies, tens of thousands of copies. It, it was, it really put her on the map. By that time she had become a national figure.

John Dehlin [02:28:48] That's got to be hard for the church to see the author of the most damaging biography about Joseph Smith ever written become a national figure, nationally recognized

Newell Bringhurst [02:28:59] and acknowledged as, as, as this eminent historian. She received, you know, national recognition, national honors for her by this time for. And so when she finished Thomas Jefferson.

John Dehlin [02:29:15] Oh, by the way, by the way, you know, I know how, I know how US citizens tend to lionize their founders. It had to have been deeply troubling and scandalous for her to be accusing Thomas S. Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson of fathering a child with his black slave, Sally Hemings.

Newell Bringhurst [02:29:36] It enraged the so called Jefferson establishment because she was an outlier coming in and doing a biography on Thomas Jefferson. And there were all these other scholars, people like Merle Janssen and there was a whole group of people that had done extensive work. Dumas Milhe was the guy. He was considered the dean of Jefferson historians. He'd done a multi volume biography, several volumes. And these guys had been working for years on Thomas Jefferson. And Fawn Brody comes in and does her intimate history, emphasizing the Sally Hemings thing and Thomas Jefferson's sexuality and the ambiguities over how he dealt with sexual slavery. Because I mean, Thomas Jefferson was A conflicted individual. That's what really appealed to Fawn. She liked to do complex, conflicted individuals.

John Dehlin [02:30:37] He writes the Declaration of Independence and

Newell Bringhurst [02:30:39] says that all men are created equal. And here he's the owner of some

John Dehlin [02:30:42] 300 black slaves, and he's having children

Newell Bringhurst [02:30:47] and he's messing around in the slave quarters. Right.

John Dehlin [02:30:49] Yeah, yeah. It's. American history is complicated.

Newell Bringhurst [02:30:54] Well, it, it, that's what all history fun. That's what makes it fascinating for me as a historian.

John Dehlin [02:31:00] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [02:31:00] But, but anyway, after she completes the Thomas Jefferson biography, I mean, she is, you know, as I say, she's a national celebrity by this time.

John Dehlin [02:31:11] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [02:31:11] And, and she says, where is there to go but down after doing Thomas Jefferson? So she's kind of in a quandary initially. Ironically enough, people are trying to talk her into doing a Brigham Young biography. And some of the kind of leading lights in Utah, some of the people, you know, some of the leading individuals in the academic community are saying, gosh, you did Thomas Jefferson, why not do Brigham Young? And so she had Leonard Errington already

John Dehlin [02:31:38] done his Brigham Young bargaining.

Newell Bringhurst [02:31:40] No, this was prior. This was prior to Arrington because Arrington's Brigham Young did not come out until 75.

John Dehlin [02:31:47] Okay.

Newell Bringhurst [02:31:47] Yeah. And so there hadn't been a decent Brigham Young biography. Stanley Hira. Sean had done, really, a slipshod, superficial biography on. And that's why she was being encouraged to do a Brigham Young biography. But she backed off pretty quickly.

John Dehlin [02:32:08] I'm sure the church would have much rather had Leonard Arrington write that.

Newell Bringhurst [02:32:11] Which he did.

John Dehlin [02:32:12] Young biography over Brody. Right. And, and, and that Brigham Young's more problematic than Joseph Smith in many ways. Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:32:18] Well, I, I, I, I kind of had some issues with Leonard Arrington, but that's for another podcast. Maybe. But anyway, I, when I did my little bi. I don't know if you've seen my biography. It's, it's, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:29] What's it called?

Newell Bringhurst [02:32:30] It's called Brigham Young and the Expanding American Frontier, initially published by Little Brown in 1976. That's a big publisher. It was. And my, you know who the guy was? That was my, that was. My editor, was the eminent historian Oscar Hanlon, who was a professor at Harvard. Harvard University. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:51] So you wrote. You wrote a credible biography of Brigham Young.

Newell Bringhurst [02:32:57] Yeah, I consider it credible and I think most probably more honest. Well, I tried to present him in a more objective way than what Leonard Arrington did.

John Dehlin [02:33:08] Was yours even a response to, like, what Leonard did? Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:33:11] No, no, it came out concurrently, because that was one of the sad Things because his was published in, he was working on his Brigham Young at the same time I was. And I wasn't trying to replicate or supersede him. I'd been approached, well, I actually approached Little Brown because they have a series of short biographies in what they call Library of American Biography, and they have specialists in each area.

Newell Bringhurst [02:33:37] Like Oscar Hanlon did one on Abraham Lincoln. You had people like Edmund Morgan, who did one on John Winthrop. They're leading figures in American history and they're part of a series, Library of American Biography and that, so mine was intended, it didn't have any footnotes, but it had, you know, extensive bibliography. But it was designed for, you know, for scholarly readers and for universe. It could be adapted as a university supplementary text if they wanted to. And so it's a short, it was short biography. It was only about 250 pages, whereas Arrington's I think, was something like in the neighborhood of 5, 600 pages.

John Dehlin [02:34:19] Got it. Okay. Wow. I, I, that's really cool to know that you wrote that Brigham Young biography during the same time, Leonard.

Newell Bringhurst [02:34:27] Yeah, I mean, it was, it was sort of scary because I'm getting a little bit off track here because I was really worried when his bio, we were working on our biographies concurrently and I was so worried that when his biography came out, it would completely supersede anything, that I wouldn't have anything new to say or any new perspective because I suspected he would, I thought that he would probably be, it would be more of a full fleshed biography on, on Brigham Young. But as it turned out, It was wanting in a couple of three areas. Number one, it was wanting on the way that Arrington treated polygamy. And that was one, I dealt with it more extensively in that little Brigham Young book. And also wanting in the way he dealt with race and slavery.

John Dehlin [02:35:24] Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:35:25] I mean, and those are two issues,

John Dehlin [02:35:28] the things the church wants to avoid. Talking about slavery and, and polygamy. Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:35:33] And so when my biography came out, it was virtually ignored. I mean, so I was, I mean, it was. Well, I didn't mean to go off on that.

John Dehlin [02:35:42] No, that's important.

Newell Bringhurst [02:35:43] But I, I was going to go on to her last biography.

John Dehlin [02:35:46] Yeah, you were saying that. How do you, how do you top.

Newell Bringhurst [02:35:48] How do you top. How do you do you atop Thomas Jefferson? How do you top a national bestseller? And so her last biography was on Richard Nixon.

John Dehlin [02:35:57] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [02:35:58] And again, the issue of sexuality comes into play because somehow she came to, she developed the idea or belief that Joe, that Richard Nixon, that Richard Nixon was Gay. That he was bisexual.

John Dehlin [02:36:13] What?

Newell Bringhurst [02:36:14] Yeah, yeah. I mean, that comes out in her book. Well, no, no, she couldn't. She couldn't come up with the evidence, the smoking gun to.

John Dehlin [02:36:21] Not, not, you know, does she make allegations or illusions?

Newell Bringhurst [02:36:24] Well, not in the book itself, but she. When she was doing research, she says, I'm convinced he was probably involved in a relationship with Bebe Rebozo because he spent so much time alone with Bebe Reboso on his boat and everything else and down at his place in Florida. And so she thought she would be able to expose his.

Newell Bringhurst [02:36:45] His bisexuality. But it never happened. And she never put it in the book. It was on the cutting room floor, so to speak. And it was a kind of a point. In many ways. It was probably the least satisfactory of her biography. She really got in each successive biography became. Not only became increasingly psychobiographical and with Richard Nixon, it was almost like a psychobiographical effort to psychoanalyze the guy in terms of certain psychobiographical themes that she had done a little bit with Thomas Jefferson, but she was doing really a lot with Richard Nixon. And she had intended to do a life to his resignation because he hadn't died yet.

Newell Bringhurst [02:37:34] She had intended to do a biography that would take it through his presidential years. But she contracted cancer and she had to reduce. She had to scale back what she wanted to do. And so it only dealt with his pre presidential years, the shaping of his personality. It was called Richard Nixon the Shaping of his Personality. And it wasn't published until after the. After her death, she was going through the page proofs as she was dying of cancer.

John Dehlin [02:38:01] I didn't realize that. What year did she die?

Newell Bringhurst [02:38:03] She died in 1981.

John Dehlin [02:38:05] Okay.

Newell Bringhurst [02:38:05] And she contracted cancer, lung cancer that took her down.

John Dehlin [02:38:10] But not a smoker probably.

Newell Bringhurst [02:38:12] No, she never was.

John Dehlin [02:38:13] Okay.

Newell Bringhurst [02:38:13] Although I've heard people say that they thought they. They made accusations that she was a smoker, but she claimed that she never smoked in her life. And I, I take her at her word.

Carah Burrell [02:38:23] Maybe. There's lots of dust on all these documents.

Newell Bringhurst [02:38:26] Yeah, well, I. I have emphysema and what they call that cp. What is that thing, that breathing stuff. Breathing stuff. And I got it from two sources. I was a little bit of a smoker because I was rebellious when I was in college and that was my stupid rebellious years when I had to prove I was a non. I was not a practicing Mormon by going around the smoking. Everybody was smoking in the 60s anyway. And my wife shamed me into giving it up. When we got married, she's a, she came out of a non Mormon background. She's actually came out of a Catholic background and both her parents smoked and she said to me, I'll be damned if I'm going to marry another smoker. And I quit because of her behest. After we.

John Dehlin [02:39:16] Good for your wife.

Newell Bringhurst [02:39:17] Yeah, thank my wife, who is not even Mormon. But the damage was apparently done. It was compounded by the fact that I worked for two years in a bakery and I was breathing up all that. What is that? Flower dust. I was around that damn flower dust for two years. And I attribute that probably as much because I was concurrently smoking at the same time. And then we live in foul air down in the San Joaquin Valley in California.

John Dehlin [02:39:46] Yeah. Let me ask you this. So Fawn Brody. I mean, it's hard. How do you, how do you not, how do you study Joseph Smith and, and not end up being fascinated with sexuality? Because on the one hand, I mean, on the one hand, on the, on the one hand you're, you're raised to think he's the most righteous man next to Jesus. And then you find out later he's marrying 14 year old sister pairs mother, daughter pairs other men's wives. And he was clearly what some would say, kind of a sexual predator. How do you, how do you, how do you confront that contrast of what he was raised up as versus what he actually was and not kind of think from then on that sex really does drive so much.

John Dehlin [02:40:30] And so, so it makes sense that she would think about that a lot new as she's dealing with these subsequent figures, as she's writing her biographies. But let me ask you this, Neil. Somehow I came across the idea at some point that Fombrody was accused of being a lesbian by Mormon apologists as a way to undermine her.

Newell Bringhurst [02:40:55] So are you familiar?

John Dehlin [02:40:56] Okay, you've never heard that?

Newell Bringhurst [02:40:58] I never heard that. I never heard that. I mean, as far as I can tell, she, I mean, she was very devoted to her husband. She was very devoted to her family. I mean, ironically, she fulfilled the role of what you'd expect of a traditional Mormon mother when she was no longer a Latter Day Saint, just the way that she carried on as a stable marriage, married to her husband, you know, all the way until he died, initially of cancer. And she was devastated by his death. I mean, she was working on Bernard when Bernard died. She was just absolutely devastated by the death of Bernard.

Newell Bringhurst [02:41:40] And I think emotionally she never recovered from that because they were very devoted to one another. I mean, the marriage had its rough spots, there's no doubt about it, because he got married in an, he got involved in an extra affair and it really, really upset and angered her when her husband, because she, apparently she had trouble with her sexuality. I talk a little bit about that in the book. She, you know, for whatever reason, I think she got it from her mother because she was very close to her mother and her mother, according to family members, the older sister told me outright, says my mother hated sex.

Newell Bringhurst [02:42:23] I mean, I mean that, that just, you know, kind of jumped off, you know, in that interview that I did with and that. And whereas Flora, the older sister, didn't have that problem. She, she was, you know, she, she had no problems with her sexuality or the sexual relationship she had with her husband. But Fawn apparently struggled with her own sexuality, which she had, I guess, because she was so heavily influenced by her mother. And so she, So I think maybe that was one of the reasons why Bernard got maybe involved in this extramarital relationship because, I mean, that part of their marriage was somewhat wanting, the sexual relationship between Bernard and Fawn. But that was the only rough spot that I found in what was otherwise an extremely harmonious relationship.

John Dehlin [02:43:17] So you're not saying that she questioned her own sexuality in terms of being bisexual or lesbian?

Newell Bringhurst [02:43:22] No, no.

John Dehlin [02:43:22] You're saying she didn't know about us for that, possibly didn't have a high

Newell Bringhurst [02:43:25] libido, but I think so. I think that's more likely she wasn't as interested and she always, and she agonized with her sister. She says, I'm just having trouble trying to resolve this. I just don't have the same sexual drive that you, you do. I mean, that's why she, you know, her and her sister going. And I, you know, I interviewed her sister and she was very open, very frank about, you know, that, that, that Fawn struggled with her sexuality and I

John Dehlin [02:43:52] mean, her sex drive, the sex drive people, your sexuality, they think, oh, bisexual or lesbian.

Newell Bringhurst [02:43:57] But I, I mean, her sexual drive and, and intimate relations with her husband. Okay, got it. And, and I think that's probably why maybe Bernard wandered off a little bit there. But I don't think it was a long lasting relationship that he had with this other woman.

John Dehlin [02:44:12] So as someone that's great to know as someone who has to now walk around Utah being viewed as like one of the most evil or, you know, the biggest enemies of the church. She must have been public enemy number one of the Mormon Church throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s. And yet Utah, you know, was her Home of origin and all her family lived here. Do you have any sense for what, you know, as her life advances, how she was treated, what her reputation was, and what it was like for her to be viewed as public enemy number one by the church?

Newell Bringhurst [02:44:51] Well, I think that in a way, the church, you know, didn't like her. But I mean, the academic, intellectual community were very much dabbered with her because when she came back to Utah to give speeches and she was made a fellow of the Utah Historical Society, received honors, local honors as an eminent historian. And I know there was one speech that she gave and it was at the University of Utah, and they just. It was. It was on her critique of the black priesthood denial thing. This was in 67 when that issue

John Dehlin [02:45:32] was really, we need a couple.

Newell Bringhurst [02:45:34] Can we manipulate history? Can we manipulate history? And that was a seminal address that she.

John Dehlin [02:45:41] That's the name of her address.

Newell Bringhurst [02:45:42] Yeah, yeah. Can we manipulate history?

John Dehlin [02:45:44] The show notes. Can we manipulate history?

Newell Bringhurst [02:45:47] And. And it was on Brody gives this talk. Yeah, gives this talk. And what it does is she is trying to. I mean, it's kind of almost giving a little bit of an effort to rehabilitate Joseph Smith's character insofar as his attitudes toward race were concerned. Because what she tried to do in that speech is show, you know, say that Joseph Smith was much more enlightened on the issue of race than Brigham Young was and that at least one black was ordained, you know, was ordained to the priesthood and that he became anti slavery when he ran for President in 1844 on his own independent, that he had a strong anti.

Newell Bringhurst [02:46:33] He'd moved. He'd moved from when he was in Missouri, he tended to be more pro slavery. He kind of went along because Missouri was a slave state. But by the time, time they got to Illinois, which was a non slave state, he had moved toward being anti slavery because the north was becoming increasingly anti slavery. And he was.

Newell Bringhurst [02:46:55] But that hadn't been sufficiently acknowledged. And that speech, they filled the University of Utah ballroom to overflowing. I think There were over 3, 400 people that listened to that speech. Unfortunately, by 60, I wasn't there because by that time I had moved to California and I was doing graduate work at UC Davis. And so I had just barely left the state when she came and gave that.

John Dehlin [02:47:20] You said that was 67.

Newell Bringhurst [02:47:22] That was 67.

John Dehlin [02:47:23] So I'm just thinking in my own understanding of history, I'm thinking, I think I have 68 in my mind. As David O. McKay is aging, Hubie Brown wants the priesthood Band to be lifted.

Newell Bringhurst [02:47:35] Right.

John Dehlin [02:47:35] And so he's lobbying the quorum kind of as David O. McKay is more on the senile side and almost gets the Priesthood band rescinded in 68 until,

Newell Bringhurst [02:47:46] until Harold B. Lee puts the kibosh on it.

John Dehlin [02:47:49] Right.

Newell Bringhurst [02:47:50] Harold B. Lee. That stops.

John Dehlin [02:47:51] Is that in your book?

Newell Bringhurst [02:47:52] That's very much in my book. I feel that's my latest work is it's going to be published.

John Dehlin [02:47:58] Do you know that, Carah?

Newell Bringhurst [02:47:59] Yeah, it's signature book. Yeah. Harold B. Lee. It's a part of kind of a short biography series that Gary Bajera approached me and said, will you be willing to do a biography of Harold B. Lee? And I never said, I never thought of doing a Harold B. Lee biography. He's never been one of the people that. I just see him as kind of a villain because he put the kibosh on lifting the ban in 1969. And, and actually, was it 69 or 68? 69.

Newell Bringhurst [02:48:30] When he put the kibosh and they issued the statement reaffirming black priesthood denial as a doctrine, not a practice. But say it originally elevated to the status of doctrine, as Matt Harris has probably told you in 49, that was the first official statement saying it is now a doctrine, it's a fixed doctrine. And then 69 reaffirmed confirms the fact. It's, it's, it's, it's still in a. It's still a fixed doctrine.

John Dehlin [02:48:57] Well, it's just, it just. If you think about 68, 69, Hubie Brown trying to make these changes, you have to wonder how much he was influenced by Fawn Brody making this talk at the U of u in 67.

Newell Bringhurst [02:49:08] Well, no, he was more influenced. Actually. I, I've dealt with this as an article that's coming out in. In the Journal of Mormon History, which, which precedes where I, I point out that Hugh B. Brown was influenced by. Was influenced more by two books that had been done on blacks. He was influenced by the. Well, he was influenced by a little book that was done by Stephen Taggart called Mormonism's Negro Policy that had been published. That's what really inspired him.

John Dehlin [02:49:45] Hugh B. Brown.

Newell Bringhurst [02:49:46] Yeah, yeah. That inspired. Hubie Brown. Said he'd read that book and he says, hey, we've got to lift this ban. It was a little book, very modest volume, but pointed out it, it emphasized the fact that. That the, the denial doctrine was not based on, on any kind of revelation. Or, and, and, and yeah, and, and it was. That it was, it was more of the Taggart book than it was Vaughn Brody.

Brodie's Legacy and Reputation in Later Years

John Dehlin [02:50:12] Well, I'm just trying to, I'm just, I'm just kind of channeling this idea that Fawn Brody has made all the. She by the late 60s she's had all this acclaim as a biographer. David O. McKay is literally the president of the church now for probably 15, 20 years. She has the courage, the strength as a woman to come to Salt Lake City, speak to a sold out crowd at the University of Utah and basically condemn the church for misleading the world and its membership about blacks in the priesthood. I mean I just, that that seems like a, like, almost like a cinematic moment in time for her for racism and for the church in its treatment of history.

Newell Bringhurst [02:50:57] Yeah, I mean the title of the article Can We Manipulate History? Also alludes to the fact that, that there was this other story.

Carah Burrell [02:51:05] So the name of the article is. Or that. So the name of the speech that she gave, Hotel Utah, Salt Lake City, 10-3-1970 is can we Manipulate the Past by Marvin.

Newell Bringhurst [02:51:15] Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the title.

Carah Burrell [02:51:17] And then the only thing I can. So I can't find it, but I can find a review of it by Marvin Hill called the Manipulation of History.

Newell Bringhurst [02:51:24] Yeah, yeah, he came back. He was their hitman down there at the time.

John Dehlin [02:51:29] So even, even that, even that the church assigned a hitman. So, so again to either Carah or our listeners, if anybody can help us find that original speech by Fawn Brody, I would love to read that speech because, because again she was excommunicated for telling the truth in 46. And then for the next 40, 50, 60 years, the church hid and deceived people about its history, intentionally, consciously knowing. And it wasn't until the Gospel topics essays in response to the Internet that the church got religion and started being honest.

Newell Bringhurst [02:52:02] Actually the, the. Yeah, you're kind of oversimplifying, I think that that trajectory. Because actually what happens. Well, it's a more complicated story because you know, the Lester Bush I'm sure you've heard 73, 73, the diet, the, the, the seminal dialogue article that is an important turning point because he presents so much compelling evidence, documentation and everything else that it has a direct effect on the decision ultimately to lift the ban. Because. And that comes during Harold B. Lee's presidency at that Lester Bush article. And initially Harold B. Lee and the other leaders are very hostile toward Lester Bush. I mean he would be one of a person that you might find interesting to interview because his story is very, very interesting what Lester Bush went through.

Newell Bringhurst [02:53:05] He and Greg Prince you know, are very, very good friends. And he would give you, I think, if he was willing to talk. I know he is pretty well moved away from the church. He was very active, very committed at one time, and according to Greg Prince, who's probably his closest friend, he was beat up too many times and just finally withdrew for telling the truth about the church's history. And that's a sad story, because when Bush produced that article, what he was trying to do is present a case that the church, you know, it's overwhelming evidence of the church needed to lift the ban.

Newell Bringhurst [02:53:44] And this was in 73, 74. And he was hoping that they would see the light and lift the ban. And I talk a little bit about that in my Harold B. Lee thing, that they'd lift the ban. And instead of lifting the ban, they actually, they doubled down. I mean, it was a situation in which they actually doubled down on, on affirming the legitimacy of the ban as doctrine. And it wasn't until after Harold B. Lee's death. I mean, if Harold B. Lee had lived, I'm convinced that it wouldn't have been. If he lived the normal lifespan of previous prophets, it wouldn't have been lifted for at least another 10 to 20 years.

John Dehlin [02:54:28] Well, I'll ask either Carah or our listeners to help us find that. That Fawn Brody speech, because I, I would care. I think we should do our own sort of reaction video to reading her talking about the Church hiding and deceiving people about its history that she writes in the late 60s, early 70s. Wouldn't that be fascinating?

Carah Burrell [02:54:49] Yeah, we'll get our hands on all this stuff. I know we will.

John Dehlin [02:54:51] Okay. All right. Well, Newell, so what else? You know, you took us up to her, her death in 81, you say?

Newell Bringhurst [02:55:01] Yeah, 81.

John Dehlin [02:55:02] I mean, she must have died relatively wealthy because.

Newell Bringhurst [02:55:05] Yeah, wealthy.

John Dehlin [02:55:06] She made so much money off her.

Newell Bringhurst [02:55:08] But yet, but yet she was. They. They weren't overly wealthy. I mean, they already had a beautiful home up in Pacific Palisades, and they were already well off because of her income and, and his income from, you know, retired emeritus UCLA professors and then all, you know, the additional. Yeah, additional income. But her death is interesting because I don't know if you know this part of the story, and I think it needs to be told about her last. As she was dying of cancer. I don't know if you've heard the story. I think maybe balance out a little bit about her last when she was, you know, really in pain and really in suffering. It was a spontaneous outburst that she Makes. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I see if I can find that.

John Dehlin [02:56:10] So you're looking.

Newell Bringhurst [02:56:12] Yeah, yeah, this is it right here. It's in the last part of the book, and it's her devout Mormon brother visits her in the hospital. And I think this part of the story needs to be told because it indicates maybe some ambiguity of. I don't know how it would be taken, but anyway, this is her father's namesake. This is her father, her younger brother.

John Dehlin [02:56:37] Right, but what's his name?

Newell Bringhurst [02:56:39] His name is Thomas. Yeah, it's Thomas McKay. I think his middle name is Thomas. Let me see. B. McKay. He's named after the brim. I think It's Thomas B. McKay. He visits her in the hospital and, you know, as she's dying, she's in her last days and she suddenly blurts out, oh, Tommy, Tommy, give me a blessing.

Newell Bringhurst [02:57:10] And this younger brother is surprised at her sister's request, given both her long standing estrangement from the church of which she'd remained, you know, of which he had remained a devout member, and her relatively distant relationship with him, because she'd been much closer to her sisters than she had her devout Mormon brother. Nevertheless, he accepted Fawn's request as a spontaneous reaction. After talking to her at some length, Thomas gave Fawn the blessing. It was the only way he knew to console his dying sister. Within days, Fawn felt the need to issue a public statement clarifying her motives for asking for this blessing.

Newell Bringhurst [02:57:57] And so she issues this document, dated 31 December 1980, to whom it may concern. And the statement said the following. She explained receiving the blessing. She said that. She explained that in the same way that her father, the elder Thomas McKay, had communicated blessings over the years as a kind of family patriarch. So did Fawn want a blessing from her brother?

Newell Bringhurst [02:58:33] Grateful that she for what she had? Having received the blessing, Fawn did not want anybody to misinterpret the incident. And this is what Fawn said in that statement. Any exaggeration that I was asked, asking to be taken back into the Mormon Church at that moment, I strictly repudiate and would for all time, she said.

Newell Bringhurst [02:58:58] And so the contents of Vaughn Brody's formal statement, combined with the recollection of the various family members, suggest at least possible three possible explanations for her extraordinary quest. First, at the time of her brother's visit, Vaughan was not completely lucid. Her son Bruce considered her brain damaged by that point. Pam, who spent most of the time with her mother during this period, recalled that Fawn was heavily drugged at the time. Thomas McKay's visit and that the particular drugs were being prescribed caused her periods of hallucination. Pam suggested that her mother's request came during such a period. A second possible motive for spons spontaneous outburst suggested by her son was that her mother was anxious to reconcile with her brother with whom she'd been estranged.

Newell Bringhurst [02:59:57] And this was a process of reconciliation. A third, somewhat less evident motive for Fawn's request has been suggested by two other family members, Thomas McKay himself and Flora McKay Crawford. That's the older sister who agreed with her brother's conjecture. Thomas called Fawn's request, you know, that she was close to death, as you know, that he was harking back, went back the days of her as a youth suffering from illnesses, as she always did, because she had a little bit of frail health when she was a child. She suffered from a number of childhood.

Newell Bringhurst [03:00:42] And so her father had given her blessings as a child that was common in that devout Mormon home. And so this is kind of harking back that Fawn would receive these faith healing blessings. And according to Thomas, Fawn still had this basic Mormon teaching in her thinking.

Newell Bringhurst [03:01:03] To him, her behavior seemed natural. She was acute ill and she made her request of him in a desperate situation. So, you know, that was one of the most controversial aspects I handled in the book because the family, who are all, you know, her immediate family, her children, who were non believers and, you know, secular like her, initially, you know, lambasted me for referring to this blessing. But I felt it was such an important part. It was like a final coda in her life. And I felt I had to put that in there as kind of the final thing that happens before she dies.

John Dehlin [03:01:47] But there's nothing the Mormon Church would love more than to be able to say that on her deathbed she wanted

Newell Bringhurst [03:01:51] to become a church. And I think rumors have circulated out there to that fact. And so that's why I tried to, to clarify it in the way that I did in the book itself. But it, but it deserves to be mentioned, to be put in a proper context, which I tried to do. It was one of, as I say, it was among the more controversial aspects that I put into the biography. Yeah.

Comparing Brodie and Bushman on Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [03:02:16] Okay, so I guess I really want to ask you about comparing really quickly. You did a full comparison of, of Rough Stone Rolling with no Man Knows My History. Before we jump to that, is there anything else you want to say about Fon Brody's life before we just have you give your best analysis of the comparison of the two books?

Newell Bringhurst [03:02:40] Well, I, I think I pretty well covered it. I, I, I, I, you know, I mean it in a, in a, in a profunctory fashion. I, I think I covered it pretty well.

John Dehlin [03:02:49] Okay, so I remember going to Sunstone years and years ago, excited to hear you do an analysis because Richard Bushman there really, I guess Donna Hill did a biography on Joseph Smith. Dan Vogel, you know, has done a biography. But, you know, the, the, the right now in Mormon consciousness, I guess it's three, it's Dan Vogel's book, Richard Bushman's book, and Fombrody's book. But I just remember a lot of excitement at the time of, like, will Bushman come out with a book that kind of replaces or makes Von Brody's book obsolete? So what would you like to say about comparing Rough Stone Rolling to no Man Knows My History? What would you like to say about that and Richard Bushman's job with Roughstone Rolling?

Newell Bringhurst [03:03:37] Well, I would, I would say the following, the. But when people ask me, well, what's the best biography to read on Joseph Smith? And I guess out of fairness, I have to say that you should consult two books specifically and maybe a third, which would be Vogel's book, because, you know, Vogel's book, you know, is not a complete biography. It only, you know, it only does deals with the early life, you know, because I reviewed and I read that very carefully. I read it in the page proof stage, actually, and I did a blurb on the back of, you know, if you got a copy of Vogel's book, you'll notice I did write a blurb for it.

Newell Bringhurst [03:04:21] But Vogel's book is mainly dealing with the early life of Joseph Smith. It doesn't take it up through his, you know, career as a Mormon leader. So when I talk about two complete biographies of Joseph Smith that stand out, it has to be by default, it has to be the Bushman and of course, Brody. And when people ask me what to read, I tell them to read both. I tell them they should look at both the Brody and the Bushman books to get a balanced perspective on Joseph Smith? Because, you know, I think one of the things that Brody slice, and she admits this herself when she wrote the book, is a lot dealing with the doctrinal and theological development.

Newell Bringhurst [03:05:16] She deals with those things, but more from a secular perspective, whereas Bushman makes more of an effort to deal with it from kind of an evolutionary theological doctrine perspective. But I'll say this about comparing the two books specifically, the much more readable one and the one where you get really a sense of a life being lived in its fullest sense is the Brody book because it's written in a much more engaging style, because Brodie was trained in English literature. And that in a way it was to her advantage, but to her detriment, because she was able to write with clear, lucid, engaging prose and give you a feeling for a life as it's being lived.

Newell Bringhurst [03:06:09] Whereas Richard Bushman's book, in my opinion, is more like a legal brief. He's acknowledging what Brody has said in her book and saying, well, this is what's been alleged about, you know, the idea of, you know, multiple versions of the first vision, what's been said about the historicity of the Book of Mormon. And he acknowledges these arguments. But then he, you know, and it's clear he's, you know, without always mentioning Brody, he's referring to Brody. But then he gives, you know, gives that side, but he gives his side and says, this is really the way it was almost like a legal brief, you know, acknowledged the arguments made by the.

Newell Bringhurst [03:06:57] By the other side. But then finally saying to me, I found it a somewhat of a. I don't know how I hate to use the word ponderous, but kind of a ponderous read to get through. I knew the story well because having, you know, done a lot of work and research on Joseph Smith's lives, but. But it contains a lot of essential details and information because Bushman, unlike Brody, had access to primary documents that were unavailable when she wrote her book. So he's able to bring in more detail and more insights into certain aspects, aspects of Joseph Smith's actions and behavior that Brody was unable to do in hers.

Newell Bringhurst [03:07:43] So that's why I recommend his alongside hers. And it tends to make the case for the theological rationale for the way that Mormon doctrines and practices evolved. He makes more of a serious attempt, attempt to do that, justifying it within a church sanctioned framework.

Newell Bringhurst [03:08:12] And yeah, it's been so long. And there was the weakest area of the book. I thought one of the weakest areas was his handling of Bushman. I'm speaking of was his handling of polygamy. It's the same argument that I had against Arrington when he wrote his Brigham Young biography. I mean, it's almost like the elephant in the room when they get to polygamy.

Newell Bringhurst [03:08:37] He doesn't handle. He handles it in a somewhat superficial fashion, in my opinion. Here you have this massive biography and I thought he could do more. I mean, in that instance, you have to go to talk Compton's In Sacred Loneliness to really get the full flesh story of Joseph Smith.

Newell Bringhurst [03:09:01] And it's a disappointment because, you know, Bushman had access to all that work that Todd Compton had done in Sacred Loneliness and doesn't really utilize the material in the way that he could have in dealing with the whole life of Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [03:09:18] Yeah, I imagine if you're Richard, that

Newell Bringhurst [03:09:19] was the greatest weakness, isn't it? Handling of polygamy.

John Dehlin [03:09:22] Yeah. Does he even acknowledge polyandry in Rough Stone Rolling?

Newell Bringhurst [03:09:25] You know, it's been years since I've read his book and I can't remember if he did or not. You know, I mean, I, I'd have to go back and look at the review that I. The reviews that I did for. I did. Yeah, I did a real extensive book review. I'm pretty sure it was for the John Whitmer Historical Journal. And boy, I. And it was not just, you know, a 500 word review, but it was a review essay. I tried to go into quite a bit about what I saw as the strengths and the weaknesses because I thought he did a significant work. I think the Bushman book really deserves to be acknowledged and to be confronted. I would urge readers to read both Fawn Brodie and, and, and, and, and Bushman and supplement it with Todd Compton to get the full picture of polygamy.

John Dehlin [03:10:24] Well, my sense is that what I think I heard you just say is that Fawn Brody is a much more interesting and compelling read.

Newell Bringhurst [03:10:30] Very much.

John Dehlin [03:10:31] Whereas Bushman's book is kind of boring and thick and hard to get through.

Newell Bringhurst [03:10:34] It's. It's tedious. I don't know about. Yeah, it's a tedious read.

John Dehlin [03:10:39] I thought, who wants to read a tedious book?

Newell Bringhurst [03:10:41] Yeah, I mean, it was the same thing with Leonard Arrington. Arrington's book, in many ways, his biography of Brigham Young is almost like an institutional history rather than really giving you a feeling for a life being lived. And as I think I indicated earlier, much to my relief, my book turned out to be much different because I thought mine was going to be a pale imitation of what he'd written earlier. And it. And it turned out to be an entirely different approach.

John Dehlin [03:11:13] Yeah. And then Bushman had more details, but it's because the church gave him access to the original documents. And Fombrody, they kept. They kept the original documents from her. But even so, did, did Bushman, what, what important information that would be interesting to our audience did Bushman contribute on top of what Brody, you know, shared was. Were there any important contributions you remember from, from Bushman's biography?

Newell Bringhurst [03:11:43] I think he, he tries to present, you know, it's almost like a kind of a prelude to the Gospel topics essays in handling controversial topics. He, he presented some of the same arguments in his, in his book about trying to explain things like the multiple versions of the first Vision, the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. I mean, it presents, I think, the initial arguments that probably were used, I would figure, served as a template for the writing of the Gospel topics essays. So I think it's interesting from that perspective because it tries to present the arguments and the basic.

Newell Bringhurst [03:12:32] And he does acknowledge some of Joseph Smith's weaknesses and flaws, you know, in terms of his behavior and that he was, you know, that he was practicing polygamy on the sly from Emma. And it does. But the other book I would suggest that you would want to supplement Bushman and Brody with would be Newell and Avery's biography of Emma Smith. If you're going to talk about Joseph Smith, that would be the other book that would. They did a beautiful job.

John Dehlin [03:13:12] That's Mormon Enigma, right?

Newell Bringhurst [03:13:13] Mormon Enigma. So we'll include that Linda Newell and Valerie Avery, Valerie Al Avery, I mean, two, two fantastic women who, who really. God, they went through a, they've gone through some difficult times as far as the church is concerned, as you're probably aware.

John Dehlin [03:13:31] So I guess if you're going to read three books about early Mormon history, it's, it's no Man Knows My History in Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton and Mormon Enigma about Emma. If you really want to understand Joseph Smith, maybe those are the three books to.

Newell Bringhurst [03:13:46] Well, but I'd also, I, you know, I'd push back a little bit. Not. I'd also recommend Bushman. I really would. You know, as I say, I'm probably not, as you know, I'm. Even though I'm not a practicing believing Latter Day Saint, I'll lay that out front. I guess out of fairness, I would, I mean, I consider myself a, you know, being a historian, I think you need all sides of the story. And as a matter of fact, I'd throw Dan Vogel's book in there because he gives a different approach. I mean, he did a really an interesting job with the early life of Joseph Smith.

Newell Bringhurst [03:14:23] So I would say, but as I say, it's too bad it wasn't a complete biography. He was intending originally to go all the way up through, but I guess it got too big and too unwieldy. But I think Vogel. It's too bad that it wasn't a complete life to death. Biography and I have a lot of regard for Dan Vogels and that gives you another important. So I'd add that to the list. I'd add Dan Vogel's book.

John Dehlin [03:14:49] Dan Vogel's book.

Newell Bringhurst [03:14:50] I really would.

John Dehlin [03:14:51] Yeah. And I will just add that just this week Dan Vogel just announced on Facebook that he's completed the manuscript for his second biography of Joseph Smith, which covers Kirtlands. Yeah, Kirtland and Missouri.

Newell Bringhurst [03:15:04] Yeah, Kirtland and Missouri.

John Dehlin [03:15:05] That's important.

Newell Bringhurst [03:15:05] And that's, that's the center volume. In the first two that were done by, the first one by Richard Van Wag Van Wagner, he did the early, you know, the, the, the early years of Joseph Smith and Marty, Marty Bradley did the Nauvoo Years. And so it's a three volume, it's a trilogy. And that's probably.

Newell Bringhurst [03:15:31] So I guess we'd have to throw that one in there because, you know, signature books published. All three of those volumes will be out the trilogy by three different authors of the three phases of Joseph Smith's life. I would want to give a shout out to. Because what signature. But they were supposed to come out years ago. That was supposed to come out back in 2005. But you know, I'm sure you're probably aware the, the volume that Dan Vogel has picked up was originally supposed to be done by another author whose name I forgot at the moment. It was, oh gosh, a very, very brilliant guy and he had all kinds of, I think all kinds of emotional problems. You know who I'm thinking of?

John Dehlin [03:16:14] No.

Newell Bringhurst [03:16:15] Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [03:16:15] But Dan Vogel picked that up.

Newell Bringhurst [03:16:17] He picked that up because it was an incomplete, it was incomplete, complete. It was done by. Gosh, I can't think of it.

John Dehlin [03:16:23] Okay. And I'm just, I read through Dan, Dan Vogel shared this week on Facebook kind of the, the chapter, the chapter titles and the outline for his book. And it's going to be fantastic.

Newell Bringhurst [03:16:35] Yeah, well, you know, Dan Vogel always does a first rate job. I, I've had, I have great respect for him as a scholar.

John Dehlin [03:16:42] Would it be su? I mean, would it be su. In the past I've gotten in trouble for, for calling Richard Bushman kind of a scholar apologist that he is a scholar, of course, Columbia, Harvard, all that. But also that, that, I mean you seem to allude to that, that Rough Stone Rolling is a precursor to the Gospel topics essays which I think anyone would, would describe as being apologetic work. So that, that implies that as sacrilegious as this might be in the Mormon studies community, to associate Richard Bushman with apologetics. What, what would your be your response to someone saying that rough Stone rolling was at least in part an apologetic?

Newell Bringhurst [03:17:23] Well, the way I, I would term it again is a little bit differently because kennel, the word apologetics could have a pejorative meaning. I guess. I, I would say it's a biography written by a true believer. He believes in the prophetic, you know, the prophetic legitimacy of Joseph Smith. There's no doubt about that. And so he's writing as a believing, practicing Latter Day Saint who believes in, you know, pretty much the essence of Joseph Smith as really being a prophet of God. I mean, I think that's, you know, whether you call it apologetics or whether you call it faithful history. Faithful history. That's a term that Bushman himself has used.

Newell Bringhurst [03:18:12] It wouldn't be the biography I would have written if I'd written and I did a short piece on Joseph Smith which was published in another anthology because I did my bit on Joseph Smith. It was originally published in the John Whitmer Journal many years ago and reprinted in and now another anthology put out by Signature Books. I dealt with him as an American reformer, a product of the reform period in American history. And I talk about the various reforms that he was advocating, not just in terms of founding a religion, but looking at him as trying to reform American society in a larger sense within the context of, of other antebellum reformers of that period, like William Lloyd Garrison and the women's suffrage suffragettes of that period, people that were calling for prison reform.

Newell Bringhurst [03:19:16] I did an essay on Joseph Smith as a religious reformer. And so that was my take on Joseph Smith and I. That was prior to Bushman's biography.

John Dehlin [03:19:32] Okay.

Carah Burrell [03:19:32] So I ask a follow up to that because I have people in my family and others out there within Mormonism that they see rough stonewilling and Bushmen as a progressive infiltrating within the church, trying to all of the rock in the hat, all of the things that are just kind of basic evidence of Joseph Smith's life and the way that the Book of Mormon came about, that those are completely untrue, not founded in the historical record, not true. And a progressive agenda by Bushman, who is not a true believer.

Newell Bringhurst [03:20:04] He is a true believer. Bushman was.

Carah Burrell [03:20:07] I'm saying that's their, that that's people in my family's criticism that that even down to the gospel topics essays that all of this kind of new information that's coming out that we've been talking about so much about being more open and honest and transparent in the history that everything back to Rough Stone Rolling and including Fawn Brody's book are all complete fabrications to tear down the church from within.

Newell Bringhurst [03:20:31] Really? Even, even, even Bushman, they see Bushman is trying. Tearing down the church. Yeah, yeah, that's ironic because, you know, he, he really is trying to bolster Joseph Smith by, by being frank and open. I mean, that was one thing. I'll give Bushman credit. You bring up a very interesting point because I think Bushman was trying to be as open and frank as he could given his basic belief in Mormonism, saying, well, he was a flawed individual. I think it comes down he was a flawed individual, but he was still a prophet of God.

Newell Bringhurst [03:21:03] And probably your family, they say, no, he wasn't a flawed individual. They have a hard time accepting him as a full rounded human being, that he had these flaws and he had these defects, that he went out and took teenage women as wives and took other men's wives as his wives.

Newell Bringhurst [03:21:23] Bushman acknowledges those sorts of things. And that's probably where they're saying, gosh, but he's demeaning Joseph Smith as excessively as what, Fawn Brody. But I mean, ironically enough, that's not what he's trying to do. He's trying to say we have to accept him as a complex individual, but yet he was still a prophet of God. And that's the essence of what he.

Newell Bringhurst [03:21:49] I'm glad you brought up that point because that's the essence of what he's trying to say in Rough Stone Rolling as well as refuting the secular claims that he was a conscious fraud put forth by Von Brody. So those are the things that Bushman was trying to do with that book.

Carah Burrell [03:22:06] Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. And it's difficult because like you're saying, he's trying to show a more well rounded version of Joseph Smith so that like we talk about with inoculation, that if you understand what type of prophet, quote unquote Joseph Smith was, you won't be quite as taken off kilter when you discover these things. So he does a good job in Rough Stone Rolling. I would agree.

Newell Bringhurst [03:22:30] I take it.

Carah Burrell [03:22:31] Yeah, I've tried. I can't say I've gotten, I've read, I have read. I've needed things and sources. So I've read plenty of different ones which I actually was going to get into in a second. But yeah, my parents don't accept the, the Stone in the Hat method for translation of the Book of Mormon.

Newell Bringhurst [03:22:45] They think that I, I don't see what would be wrong with that because, you know, Joseph Smith was a product of his time. And that's basically what Fawn Brody was trying to show, that this whole thing with magic and the occult and everything else, his fascination for magic and the occult, it helped to generate his involvement with creating a new religion. And I guess if I threw another book in there to recommend in the context of Joseph Smith, it would be Michael Quinn's Mortal Mormonism and the Magic Worldview. To me, that's one of the most important Mormon books on Mormon culture ever written. I think that's. To me, I think that's Mike Quinn's greatest contribution is Mormonism and the Magic Worldview. That is an absolutely outstanding book and

John Dehlin [03:23:36] it might not have ever been written without Fawn Brodie. Is that fair to say?

Newell Bringhurst [03:23:41] That's true. That's true. That's true.

John Dehlin [03:23:43] So she is the OG she's the

Carah Burrell [03:23:45] OG And I, as we're wrapping up now, I have just one fun little game, quote unquote, that I thought would be interesting if Newell would tell us. John, you can have. I think we should all say what is our favorite thing that Fawn Brody published in no Man Knows My History? What's the. What's the one thing that. It was just a game changer to how you viewed things. So does that make sense?

John Dehlin [03:24:08] Sure.

Carah Burrell [03:24:09] I'll go first.

John Dehlin [03:24:10] Okay.

Carah Burrell [03:24:11] Because I already have it pulled up. I was fascinated by the way that. So you're talking about magic worldview and things that are. Feel like they're undeniable, but people like my parents don't accept. And I think that when Joseph Smith Senior published in the Wayne Sentinel for a week straight where he had to dig up Alvin's body because there was rumors going around.

Newell Bringhurst [03:24:37] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:24:38] About the. That because they were treasure diggers and grave robbers, that people were messing with his son's body that they had just buried and that he got upset. He went uncovered his son's deceased body in the ground and then published for a week straight. Kind of like, you know, what's the nicest way to say screw you guys to the. To the townspeople and. And then just being really upset that he had to do that and that people from all over still, after that happened, it just became more solidified that Joseph Smith and his family were known for what Von Brody calls necromancer. Being a necromancer.

Newell Bringhurst [03:25:18] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:25:18] And had an exceptional talent. And that. That just spurred that more and more people knew that he, you know, could look into the ground and had a. An Account of hearing. He had a possession of certain keys by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye. So those are like the. The real historical things that are. I would love to show my parents that that is just like one. One item of many that show that that is the magical worldview that they had, that there were all of these different intricate things that were at play in Joseph Smith's family. And. Yeah, I really love that part of. It's page 28.

John Dehlin [03:25:54] All right.

Carah Burrell [03:25:55] In no Man Knows My History. That's my favorite thing from the entire book. If you don't have an example off the top of your head, I will put you on the spot.

John Dehlin [03:26:01] No, I've got. I mean, I. I'll just say mine and. No, you. We can end with yours. Like, I, I just like Gerald Tanner didn't run with the Salamander letter when it came out.

Newell Bringhurst [03:26:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:13] But in other words, he. He had enough honesty and credibility and intelligence to where he wouldn't just run with any spurious or negative accusation made about, you know, the. The church or Joseph Smith. I thought it was interesting that Fawn Brody wasn't big on the Spalding manuscript theory.

Newell Bringhurst [03:26:31] Right.

John Dehlin [03:26:32] That she was one of the first to debunk it. And even though it's. It's a theory that many would want to use to explain the Book of Mormon, that she was willing to say, no, I don't think there's much to that. So to me, that showed some integrity on her part and some character and some thoughtfulness. But then I also, in addition to her coverage of polygamy and the folk magic stuff, you know, I just was so disturbed by the way, you know, we came to understand through Fon Brody, Joseph's final couple years, because once he's, like, marching the. The Nauvoo Legion around neighboring cities in almost an intimidating way, the way that he's like, commander of the militia.

John Dehlin [03:27:17] And then he's like, not only running for president, you know, this is kind of. This seems to be truly narcissistic kind of behavior. He's not just having 30 or 40 wives, hiding it from Emma, marching the state. Illinois's largest state militia around neighboring towns to intimidate them. He's running for president, but then he's pulling the Council of 50 Together and declaring himself king of the world. Yeah, right. Like, that is a. It really shows how he kind of went off his rocker towards the end of his life and that.

Newell Bringhurst [03:27:51] That stood out to you.

John Dehlin [03:27:53] Yeah. Okay. So, Noel, now we're all dying to know if you had. If you had to share one or two of your favorite parts of. Of Fawn Brody's. No man knows my history. What would those be for you?

Brodie's Interpretation of Joseph Smith's Final Years

Newell Bringhurst [03:28:05] Well, for me, the thing that really attracted my attention and interest was, like you, the final years of his life, the final two or three years, and all that that transpired during those final two or three years. I mean, from. I guess from 40, mainly from 42 to 44, it was almost like. It was almost manic in terms of what was happening.

Newell Bringhurst [03:28:33] And. And Fawn talks about that in some detail. And that part elicited in me the curiosity to know more about all that was occurring. I mean, you've got, like you had mentioned, you've got him running for president. You've got him, you know, beginnings of the temple ceremonies, the endowment and all of that. The formation of the Council of 50, and at the same time realizing that possibly we're going to have to find a new place to settle the Saints, our position in Illinois is becoming untenable, and all of that is coming to a culmination.

Newell Bringhurst [03:29:19] And I guess that last two years, you know, that it's just. It's just dizzying. You know, it's like the increased tempo in his activities. It's like a manic development. And whether it's because of his state of mind, you know, what is happening to him, you know, psychologically in terms of his behavior, because it's like things are kind of closing in on him during those last two years. And that's why he's looking for an exit strategy, either by finding a new settle. Settle, you know, a new place to settle the Saints, or whether it has this chaotic campaign, running for president. Somehow he feels like he can maybe be elected president.

Newell Bringhurst [03:30:15] In fact, I dealt in a lot of detail. I found that fascinating that he would have the, you know, the chess paw to run for President of the United States. And that kind of stimulated me to do a detailed study of that particular activity, I guess. There's a new book out, which I haven't seen, but I wrote my own article on that, which was published in a collection of essays that Craig Foster and I wrote together called the Mormon Quest for the Presidency.

Newell Bringhurst [03:30:52] And I tried to see what was his state of mind when he decided to run for president, you know, and I found Fawn Brody's explanation that it was simply a publicity stunt. I found that a little bit too facile. I felt there had to be a deeper set of motivations. You don't make a decision like that, just, you know, Saying, ah, I've got to do this as a publicity stunt. I, I mean, I think there was one part of him may have been a, you know, kind of a distorted part that really thought he might have a chance of winning. Because I went back, you know, being an American historian, I went back and looked very carefully at what the state of American politics was in 1844 when he ran for president.

Newell Bringhurst [03:31:40] And it was really very much in a state of flux. I mean, there was a lot of uncertainty about that particular election. And in many ways it could have been an even more pivotal election than it was, you know, say, oh, yeah, in that election. James K. Polk was elected president in 1844, period. He defeated Henry Clay.

Newell Bringhurst [03:32:02] But there's a lot more. There was a lot more things going on during the course of that campaign and, and, and, and Fawn Brody touched on him, but she really didn't give you a sense. And neither did Richard Bushman. Richard Bushman is sort of disappointing too, in that regard, because I thought that was a significant act that. Well, that he, that Joseph Smith would run and figure that. And I think there was a part that thought he might have a chance of deadlocking the election because what had happened 20 years earlier, it had turned out to be a deadlocked election. 1824, when the election was thrown into the House of Representatives.

Newell Bringhurst [03:32:45] And I came to the conclusion that perhaps Joseph Smith thought the same thing would happen in 1844, because there were multiple candidates. There was a. Not only was. Was the two major party candidates, but there was a Liberty Party candidate who was running. And there were, there was, there was, there was the possibility, if enough votes were thrown different ways, it could end up in the House of Representatives. And that Joseph Smith, if he didn't win, I mean, it was a forlorn thing that he could even win, but perhaps he could act as a broker.

Newell Bringhurst [03:33:25] He could broker the outcome of the election and perhaps help the saints out that way. And I think to me, that's a more sophisticated explanation rather than it being a mere publicity stunt.

John Dehlin [03:33:34] Yeah. And that also comes through in Brody's book is just how much the church in Nauvoo, Joseph Smith and the Church of Nauvoo were trying to play both sides of the political thing.

Newell Bringhurst [03:33:45] Yeah. They were doing the same thing locally,

John Dehlin [03:33:47] trying to get power, trying to manipulate the machinery, and they made a lot of enemies as a result.

Newell Bringhurst [03:33:53] That's what made their position untenable, was going back and forth in their partisan loyalties.

John Dehlin [03:33:59] And ultimately there's a very stark contrast between how the church wanted us all to believe that Joseph Smith was pure, innocent, like a lamb to the slaughter. There's a really big difference between that and his last two years and how he behaved. And his life was much more like David Koresh and the final days of Waco. That's more the way Joseph Smith's life ended than lamb to the slaughter. Innocent as the pure driven snow, which is what the Church wanted us to believe before and after Fawn Brody, I think.

Newell Bringhurst [03:34:32] Yeah. Well, as I say, I see him as a very complex individual. I guess I would be a bit more nuanced than you in that regard. I would say that he was motivated by his own ego, obviously, as you have indicated. But I still think there was this altruistic side that he was concerned for his followers. By this time, he had built up a significant following of people. He wasn't going to go just. I don't think he was going to be quite at David Koresh because David Koresh, as did Jim Jones down in Guyana, I mean, tried to take his followers down with him. I don't see Joseph Smith in that as that. I don't see him as that harsh.

John Dehlin [03:35:26] No, no, no. I'm just saying it was closer to that than him being pure as the driven snow. I mean, he did leave Nauvoo on horseback as if to abandon the Saints.

Newell Bringhurst [03:35:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:38] But ultimately he was convinced to come back.

Newell Bringhurst [03:35:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:41] And. And to his credit, he didn't bring the. The wrath of the army upon the citizens of Nauvoo. He gave himself up. So, yes, he stopped short of being a full blown Jim Jones and David Koresh, but I believe he took the Nauvoo Saints to the brink of that possibility. I think it could have gone that way with just a few different decisions.

Newell Bringhurst [03:36:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:05] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [03:36:06] Well, it's very. Yeah, that's. That's a possibility. That's for sure.

John Dehlin [03:36:11] Yeah. So really quickly, I have a couple more. Just quick questions. I remember Bushman saying, I think in my original interview of him on Mormon stories that he actually found Fawn Brody to be quite kind and even affectionate towards Joseph Smith in the way he read. No man knows my history. So what, what, what are your takeaways for how Fawn Brody, you know, what type of job she did in capturing the man? Was it a hateful I hate Joseph Smith biography, let's take him down? Or, or would you say Fawn Brody felt ambivalent or mixed or even somewhat affectionate towards Joseph Smith?

Newell Bringhurst [03:36:52] I'd say it was an ambivalent on the one hand, she was outraged by, you know, his behavior as it involved polygamy and, I guess, certain deceptions concerning things like the Book of Abraham and other, you know, other aspects of the Book of Mormon. But at the same time, he, as I've mentioned before, she came to the conclusion that even though he started out as an imposter and he became convinced that he was a prophetic leader, that he was trying to lead his followers in a better direction in terms of their beliefs and ultimate salvation. Because, you know, the doctrines he develops, I mean, you know, and this is really not emphasized sufficiently in the.

Newell Bringhurst [03:38:00] No man knows my history, this idea of exaltation, of man being able to become, achieve godhood. I mean, that's a pretty radical idea. And it really gives a much more optimal, optimistic view of what a person's ultimate salvation is, that you have this capacity to grow in terms of almost achieving godlike status. It's much different than orthodox evangelical Christianity where you've got to get right with Jesus or you're going to go to hell. And. And he develops a much more limited view of those who will ultimately be damned. In many ways, I can see why Mormonism appeals and why people stick with the church is this optimism that in the great beyond there's going to be something much better than exists even for probably the most depraved of people, that they'll be better off.

Newell Bringhurst [03:39:08] The only ones that will be, you know, thrown into some kind of eternal darkness, or, you know, hell, if we want to call it that will be a very few, very, very few. And so this expansive view of heaven is sort of like, you know, but it's a very gradated view of salvation. It sort of reminds me of.

Newell Bringhurst [03:39:29] I always tell this story about, you know, getting on a plane for a plane flight, that there'll be a few people in first class. Those are the devout Mormons who have had their ordinances and all of that. They're going to get the first class seats, celestial kingdom. And then I guess there's a section in the business class for people who. They didn't quite make the first class, real comfortable seats. And then probably the vast majority will be stuck back in the coach seats, you know, the more cramped seats. But it'll be better than what will happen. And then I guess those who are really the scoundrels will maybe be in the baggage part. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:40:17] Got it, Got it. So are you comfortable with the pious fraud kind of summary that Dan Vogel makes of Joseph Smith?

Newell Bringhurst [03:40:25] I tend to be More that way. Because what Dan Vogel did in his book, that Fawn Brody did in his, was acknowledge the religiosity of the man much more than what Fawn Brodie did. And I think that was to Dan's credit, you know, that he believes that he was a pious man and perhaps believed in what he was doing as being an altruistic thing, you know, and. Yeah, so Dan has a. I'm much closer to his interpretation than I am Fawn Brody's, which would be a conscious fraud. A conscious fraud as opposed to a pious fraud. I think he either sincerely believed that he was a prophet of God or came to that belief. And that's sort of what's implied in Dan Vogel's book, as I best remember it, you know, and so I. I guess I'm kind of in the Dan Vogel camp in that regard.

John Dehlin [03:41:22] And I'm curious, in all your studies of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, there's always this argument that the Book of Mormon is just too amazing, it's too complex. Joseph Smith couldn't have written it. Where do you come down on how the Book of Mormon was produced?

Newell Bringhurst [03:41:40] Well, that's a much more difficult question for me to deal with because I haven't studied the text and the context and all of that. The way the book was put together, again, that was one of the great contributions of Dan because he really came up with examples and evidence. I guess that's one of the strongest parts of Dan Vogel's book is his careful analysis of the Book of Mormon. So I would tend to probably agree with. With some of the conclusions that Dan has come up with, because he really carefully went through that, as you're well aware.

John Dehlin [03:42:25] But if you had to summarize where Joseph Smith came up with the Book of Mormon, what would you say?

Newell Bringhurst [03:42:28] Where he came up with it? Yeah, that is a much more difficult question to answer. Where and how did he come up with it?

John Dehlin [03:42:36] You don't have, like.

Newell Bringhurst [03:42:37] Yeah, I really don't have an answer for that. I mean, to me, it's amazing that he could produce such a complex, complicated piece of literature. I'm convinced that he wrote the book. I mean, there's no doubt about that. But did he write it? What tools or what implements did he use in writing? It clearly reflects, unlike the Bible, which is written by, you know, a lot of different people and everything else, it's clear that it. It's got his. But how he was able to come up with it, you know, I guess, who is it? Somebody used the term religious genius. To describe. I guess it was. I think it was. It was the writer, a non Mormon writer, wrote a book and I've got it on my bookshelf. Non Mormon. And the guy from Yale that basically does classic studies. He does.

John Dehlin [03:43:48] He called Joseph a religious genius.

Newell Bringhurst [03:43:50] He calls Joseph a religious genius. And in fact, he spoke at an mha. I think I was one of the people that encouraged them to.

John Dehlin [03:43:58] Do you think Joseph wrote it alone or do you think he had accomplice? You don't know?

Newell Bringhurst [03:44:02] I don't know. That's a hard question.

John Dehlin [03:44:04] Do you remember liking Grant Palmer's book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins as an explanation of how Joseph.

Newell Bringhurst [03:44:12] You know, I haven't read. Read that all that carefully. I just read parts of it.

John Dehlin [03:44:16] That's never been a big deal for you. Yeah. Okay, one last question then. Care. I want to hear what you have to say. If somebody. I know that as a historian you try and be really measured and objective and I think that's a beautiful thing about scholarship and historians.

John Dehlin [03:44:30] Like, it's hard for me if I'm just trying. Like I just want to figure out what. What happened and what's true as much as the evidence will allow and how to interpret it in a way to really get a sense for Joseph's character. It's hard for me not to come away from studying Joseph Smith's life without concluding that in some way he was kind of a sexual predator in terms of the way that he acted regarding polygamy and young women and other people's wives. Is that for you? I know that you might eschew or not even want to use such a term. Do you think that's. Are you comfortable with that type of characterization?

Newell Bringhurst [03:45:06] I think it's overly harsh, I guess I would say, like a lot of people who gain power, whether it be political or religious. Religious. I think power can be a powerful aphrodisiaite. And I think in Joseph Smith's case, I think that that may have been a factor as he gained more and more of a following, as he gained more and more legitimacy as a religious leader, like other religious leaders, like other people who have gotten involved in sexual improprieties.

John Dehlin [03:45:43] But we're talking 14 year olds and 16 year olds.

Newell Bringhurst [03:45:45] I mean, that part is. Yeah, that is a little bit that

John Dehlin [03:45:50] goes down and using his power to intimidate people and to say, you have 24 hours to accept this proposal or you and your family will be cut off from. You know, that gets in the realm of using his power to pressure young women and their families to become his wife.

Newell Bringhurst [03:46:06] I think he perhaps had an, maybe an over six libido. I mean, but I think it was maybe, as I say, I don't know if I'd go and call him a sexual predator per se, but I would say that he certainly used his positions of power and authority to, you know, to further his, you know, sexual activities.

Newell Bringhurst [03:46:39] Whether, you know, and I guess that's one of the things that really stood out in Todd Compton's book. And it's interesting in quoting Fawn Brody, I don't know if there's a, there is where she is convinced that she uses a somewhat harsher term and describing Joseph Smith's polygamy. And to me it was one of the things that really, really jumped out in the biography. And I quoted, I gave the quote somewhat extensively and I think I need to quote that maybe as a concluding coda where she's describing confronting Joseph Smith's Here we go. And this I think really sums up the way that she felt she was morally outraged.

John Dehlin [03:47:29] What page of your book?

Newell Bringhurst [03:47:30] It's on page 89. Okay, and I'll read it. I think polygamy was disguised whoredom, but the disguise was so good that it metamorphosized the system into something quite different. After all, the differences between the difference between fornication and sacred matrimony is merely a few mumblings from any mangy justice of the peace. The word is a thing, after all. Most of the polygamist women were very certain that it was a commandment of God.

Newell Bringhurst [03:48:07] Read the revelation again and that's doctrine and Covenants 132 and see how shockingly specific it is. Unless, and he's quoting that in quotes, she quotes the revelation itself. Unless I, a man enter into, enters this covenant, he shall be damned. Etc and so I, I, in a way I, I think that he, he was using I, I, I think that he somehow he becomes convinced that, you know, polygamy is a commandment of God and is able to create maybe a guilt free attitude in his own mind. He didn't see him, I don't think Joseph Smith saw himself as a sexual predator in our terminology.

Newell Bringhurst [03:49:00] We would see this as going over the line, I mean, you know, really as something that is completely inappropriate. And I think that was, you know, and Bushman and his, his own way sort of acknowledges that. But as I say, that's why he didn't want to go into a lot of detail on polygamy because it's such a, it's such a sordid aspect of what happened in the church. Like you say, underage girls and women that were married to other men.

John Dehlin [03:49:32] And the number 40.

Newell Bringhurst [03:49:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 30 some odd.

John Dehlin [03:49:36] I think that's not just a couple of potential affairs. We're talking about 30 years. Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [03:49:40] And that was a total that Todd Compton came up with.

John Dehlin [03:49:43] Yeah. Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [03:49:44] So I guess I didn't really answer your question per se. Do I consider him a sexual predator? I. I guess I would see him as taking advantage of. Of an opportunity of his position the way that certain other, you know, evangelical preachers. I mean, you know, people like Jim Baker and. And who's the other one? When they had.

Carah Burrell [03:50:05] Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [03:50:05] Jerry Falwell. Was it Falwell? I thought it was Haggard. Yeah. These other ministers who have taken advantage in the fall in the other way and perhaps convincing themselves they're doing it in the name of God. I mean, I'd put Joseph Smith in that category.

John Dehlin [03:50:24] Yeah. It's complex because on the one hand, we don't want to call him a sexual predator. On the other hand, we're all agreeing that he used his power to influence influence to coerce young women and other men's wives to have sexual relationships.

Newell Bringhurst [03:50:37] But the interesting thing is, as a reorganized church, as a community, Christ, somehow he was able to avoid having offspring with these other women. And that was one of the things that Fawn Brody was really trying to find is were their offspring from these other relationships and wasn't able to come up with any. Any at all. And that kind of perplexed her. Just, gosh, I wonder if, after all, maybe he didn't have sexual relations. It's interesting because there are scholars out there today. I mean, Brian Hales, I don't know if you're familiar with his scholarship. And he's one of these guys that doesn't think that there was any sexual relationship between.

Newell Bringhurst [03:51:25] Particularly between these women that were married to other men and younger women that, you know, they didn't produce any offspring. So they, you know. And I think he goes a bit too far. He makes. He's very. Brian Hales is very much of an apologist. If you want to categorize somebody, he would very clearly fit in the apologetic category.

John Dehlin [03:51:46] But every prophet after Joseph Smith, sex was an integral part of the polygamy. So why. Why does anybody want to say that all the prophets and members of the church after Joseph Smith were fully engaged in every aspect of polygamy, including the sex. But somehow we want to stay with Joseph Smith in his wife's but, but then we have so many of his own wives after he's dead, signing affidavits saying that they had sex with Joseph Smith. So to try and create these exceptions with Joseph Smith, I think is just wishful thinking.

Newell Bringhurst [03:52:19] And theologically, I mean, it fits in with the way that. I mean, the introduction of polygamy fits in very much with the way in which Mormon theology was moving by this time. You know, the emphasis of the pre. Existence of bringing these spirits into the world and creating what would be your own, your own kingdom in the hereafter. You're going to be a God over your own world with all of this offspring. I mean, that was the culmination of Joseph Smith's theological development was this whole idea of eternal progression where you not only become a God, but you're going to have all these offspring.

John Dehlin [03:53:02] Yeah, that's what Ed Decker was trying to capture in the God Maker speakers. It's an Inconvenient truth. Carah, what else. How else did you want to. Anything else you wanted to ask Noel or say to Noel?

Criticisms of Brodie's Work and Final Reflections

Carah Burrell [03:53:14] The last question I had, unless we already covered this completely, maybe we have, is I always heard that the main criticism of no Man Knows My History is that Fon Brody did try to psychoanalyze a little bit too much, like you're mentioning with the Nixon biography and the Jefferson one. What's your perception of that criticism?

Newell Bringhurst [03:53:33] Well, I don't think she. Her Joseph Smith biography is the least psychoanalytical of all of her biographies. She was holding back. I mean, she did a lot more of that with her later biographies than she did with Joseph Smith. So I think it was a mild degree of psychobiography like I try to do in my biography of hers. I, I don't think she psychoanalyzed Joseph Smith in any more than I tried to psychoanalyze Fawn Brody. I mean, so I, I would say that that's probably not a completely valid criticism.

John Dehlin [03:54:14] And even if she did try and mix psychoanalysis into her history, in your mind, does that undermine her, her effectiveness as a historian?

Newell Bringhurst [03:54:24] No, I, I think, I think psycho analysis can be a useful tool. You know, I'm speaking to the. I'm preaching to the choir here, of course, but no, really, I think it can be a very useful tool if it's you. If it's not used excessively. I mean, some people go really crazy with it and it becomes, you know, it becomes almost a distraction rather than a supplement. I think it's an essential tool.

John Dehlin [03:54:50] Putting aside the psychoanalysis, her History is top rate, correct?

Newell Bringhurst [03:54:55] I would consider that no man Knows. My History is a seminal work. I think it has a historical work, as I've noted, and it has its shortcomings. But for what she had to work with in terms of the sources available. And you have to remember the fact that when she wrote that book, she wasn't even 30 years old. She wrote that. She did the research and writing when she was in her 20s. Think about people today that are in their 20s. How many people do you know would be capable of doing a masterful piece of scholarship like that? I mean, I know I wouldn't as

John Dehlin [03:55:33] a stay at home mom.

Newell Bringhurst [03:55:35] As a stay at home mom looking after Richard. I mean, that's kind of interesting too. We didn't even get to that point about her children, how they turned out. That's kind of an interesting.

John Dehlin [03:55:46] Did they do okay?

Newell Bringhurst [03:55:48] Well, two of the three really did well for themselves. Pamela ended up having a career with the Sierra Club. She's been very much of an environmental activist. Bruce Brody became a clinical psychologist and developed a successful practice. And their oldest one, Richard, or Dickie, as she called him or Dick, he was the biggest disappointment.

Newell Bringhurst [03:56:14] Things did not turn out well for him. He never really found who he wanted to be or what he wanted to do. I mean, that was much to her dismay because Richard, the oldest, was perhaps the brightest of all of the three children. Bruce had more difficulty academically, but he was the hardest working. He was like his mother. He persisted and worked hard, but. But Richard had the brains, had the intelligence, had the ability, and did the least with it. He turned out he recently passed. He was exactly my age. I'm an exact contemporary. I thought it was kind of interesting. Here I was when I was doing the research.

Newell Bringhurst [03:56:55] I got to interview all of the children. I interviewed the three children. And if you read my thing that I wrote on my affair with Fawn Brody, you'll see how I interrelated with the people. So I guess I don't need to repeat it here because you probably don't have the time or the patience to hear about it.

John Dehlin [03:57:13] Well, we can definitely put a link to that article as well in the show notes.

Newell Bringhurst [03:57:17] Yeah. Because I think they'd find that interesting. My affair. I'll say one thing. After 13 years of working on Fawn Brody, my wife was so damn glad to get that other woman out of the house because I even had dreams of. Of being with Fawn Brody. I mean, it was like she said she had dreams of when she was doing Thomas Jefferson. She became Very enamored with Thomas Jefferson. And her husband Bernard said, I was so glad when that damn man was out of the house. And my wife said the same thing about Fawn Brody.

John Dehlin [03:57:52] So you never got to actually meet Fon Brody, is that right?

Newell Bringhurst [03:57:54] I corresponded with her.

John Dehlin [03:57:55] Oh, cool.

Newell Bringhurst [03:57:55] Yeah. And I talked about that a little bit in, in this, in this article that I, that we had. We carried on a correspondence when I was working on. On my first book. I mean, she critiqued my manuscript on, on. On Saints, Slaves and Blacks, because I approached her as. By virtue of her. Can we manipulate the past? The speech. She'd given up the University of Utah. And I knew she was very interested in the race issue. And I actually, actually contacted her and she carefully read my manuscript and gave me. Gave me a good critique.

John Dehlin [03:58:28] That's great.

Newell Bringhurst [03:58:29] Yeah, so she was very.

John Dehlin [03:58:31] That's great. All right, well, Newell, we want to have you back. Is it. Is it new? A treasure.

Carah Burrell [03:58:37] Karen, I do love this stuff. I really, really do.

John Dehlin [03:58:41] Yeah. And no, you just know so much. And you're so. You said seven or eight books. You're so prolific. And we want to have you back to, to talk about, you know, blacks in the priesthood. I would love your take on the gospel topics essays. I would love to have you back to talk about Harold B. Lee and his role in the church, Brigham Young. I would love to hear your highlights of like, you know, 10 things we should all know about Brigham Young. And then, of course, you're working on another book right now, Eldridge Cleaver.

Newell Bringhurst [03:59:08] I'm doing a. Tell us about that Eldridge Cleaver.

John Dehlin [03:59:11] Do you know who Eldridge Cleaver is, Carah, you want to give our listeners. Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [03:59:16] A little bit on Eldridge Cleaver. One of the more interesting, probably when he joined the church, I mean, he was a Black Panther. He was a leader in the Black Panther Party. And he had been an ex convict and who, when he got out of prison, he'd written. Yeah, he was born in Arkansas. The family migrated. All of my settled in Los Angeles. And he got involved in a life of crime, you know, his early years. He. And he spent a great deal of his early adulthood in prison.

Newell Bringhurst [03:59:52] And while in prison, he read voraciously, extremely bright. I mean, we like Fawn Brody. The guy just had like Malcolm X and you know. Yeah. And he ultimately wrote what. What became a very famous book about his years in prison and, and what it was like to be a black man called Soul on Ice, which became a national bestseller. I mean, it put him on the map. As one of the most prominent black spokesmen during the late 1980s and 80s.

Newell Bringhurst [04:00:27] I'm sorry, late 1960s. 60s, yeah, the late 1960s. In 68, he ran as the presidential candidate for the Peace and Freedom Party, the newly formed Peace and Freedom Party. And in the meantime he was, you know, the Black Panthers were involved in a number of altercations with the police and everything else. And he got involved in a shootout with the Oakland police and they were going to send him back to prison because he was on parole for having been released from prison earlier.

Newell Bringhurst [04:01:00] And he fled the country and lived abroad for seven years. He initially lived in Algeria, then he ultimately ended up in first Cuba, then Algeria, then France. And at that point he went through a complete transformation from being an atheist, Marxist, Black Panther. He all of a sudden became a born again Christian.

Newell Bringhurst [04:01:30] And he came back to the United States and was, I guess he. For the conviction of the shootout in Oakland. He did a lot of community service and stuff like that. And in the meantime, as I say, he became a born again Christian, initially evangelical.

Newell Bringhurst [04:01:49] And then he was attracted by W. Cleon Skousen and Reed Benson to the Friedman Institute that was going around giving strong anti communist speeches. And he had a good friend who had been a former Black Panther who had become a Mormon convert, a guy named Karl Loeber, and that introduced him to the church. And then he was ultimately baptized.

John Dehlin [04:02:14] What year?

Newell Bringhurst [04:02:15] In 1982. Can you imagine that? I mean, Harry was considered the biggest, the baddest of the Black Panthers. And he becomes a Mormon. At the time he was baptized, he was the most prominent black Mormon before this was before Gladys Knight and I wrote an article that was published in Dialogue.

Newell Bringhurst [04:02:35] And yeah, it was. I've got a copy of the article which I'll leave with you that where I talk about his passage through Mormonism because he didn't stay active. He was baptized and there's a big deal made about it. And he spoke at stake firesides and stuff like that. But it's sort of sad because his life went downhill after that. He became addicted to drugs and he died at the age of 62. And he was still a member of record. He's still a member of the church. At the time he died, I had the opportunity to interview him. Oh, when I was doing this article that was published in the Journal of Mormon history in 2002.

Newell Bringhurst [04:03:16] And so after I did the Harold B. Lee biography. How did I decide to do a biography? Well, I mentioned to Gary Bajera, you know, I'd be Interested in. If you're interested, I'd be interested in doing a similar short biography on. On Eldritch Cleaver, like the one I had done on Harold B. Lee. And he says, gosh, yeah, we'd be very interested in that. So that's what I'm working on right now.

John Dehlin [04:03:41] Well, God or heaven or whoever bless Signature Books because they, you know, along with Sunstone, along with Dialogue, along with the journal Mormon History, Mormon Historical Association, Signature Books has been a really important part of helping us come to see the church in a more honest and open, transparent light. So bless you, Signature Books, and bless you, Noel Bringhurst. Yeah.

Newell Bringhurst [04:04:08] Well, thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:04:11] Yeah. And we wanna. We wanna have you back, right, Carah?

Newell Bringhurst [04:04:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:04:14] Do you wanna have Noelle back?

Carah Burrell [04:04:15] Of course.

John Dehlin [04:04:16] All right.

Carah Burrell [04:04:16] Blessing. I'm bowing.

John Dehlin [04:04:18] Okay. We. So new. Hold up. The book. The book is. The book is Fawn McKay Brody A. Hold it up a little more. Fawn McKay Brody, a biographer's Life by Newell Bringhurst. That one's published by University of Oklahoma Press, but by all of Newell Bringhurst's books. That's fine. Noel and Newell, you're. You're a treasure. You're a legend to us. We're so grateful for everything you've done and bless you in your 79th year. And may you have another 20 years at least, of Mormon scholarship. And we hope to have you back on Mormon Stories to share with us more of your abundant knowledge about Mormon history. Thanks, brother.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Newell Bringhurst [04:05:02] Well, thank you.

John Dehlin [04:05:04] All right. And Carah, thanks so much for joining us.

Carah Burrell [04:05:07] Yeah, thanks for having me. We started real early today, and I was worried I was going to be tired, but. No, no, brung it.

John Dehlin [04:05:14] I'm a shout out to a little

Newell Bringhurst [04:05:16] Plan on words there.

Carah Burrell [04:05:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:19] And a shout out to Matt Harris. We love you, Matt. We want to have you back on Mormon Stories. And you do great work, Matt Harris. And I don't think I would have interviewed Newell without. Without my recent exchanges with Matt. Not because, Noel, I didn't think you were awesome. It's just. I don't know why it wouldn't have occurred to me. And that's why I'm so glad we're. We're helping the world get to know Newell Bringhurst, just like we tried to do with Sandra Tanner after many had kind of forgotten her contribution. Contributions as well. So thanks, Noel.

Newell Bringhurst [04:05:44] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [04:05:45] Take care. Thanks, Carah. Take care.

Carah Burrell [04:05:47] Yep. Thanks.

John Dehlin [04:05:48] And we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Go to MormonStories.org to donate if you value this kind of programming. Please become a monthly donor. Give us your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com and please spread the word about this. And please buy Newell Bringhurst Books, support Signature Books, support Benchmark Books, and. And support Mormon scholarship and dialogue, because this stuff's important. Bye, everybody. Take care. See you guys all again soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.