Introduction to Exvangelical Stories

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:00:00] Welcome to exvangelical stories. I'm Dr. Todd Phillips, and this is a series that's produced actually in partnership with Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories foundation, which is a nonprofit organization that's actually structured in part to support these kinds of projects. So for more than 20 years, Mormon stories, and maybe you've seen them already, they've been sharing personal experiences from people questioning primarily Mormonism, although they've expanded beyond that to other religious experiences as well. But with Exvangelical Stories, this miniseries that we're starting right now, we're bringing that same long form storytelling approach to the evangelical Christian world and how people have moved out of it.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:00:37] So I want to say this up front. My goal here is very simple. It's just to have honest, thoughtful conversations with people about their own religious experience. You know, what led them to question their beliefs and how they navigated life during and really after the process of deconstructing from their particular evangelical Christian faith. And I'll also say this. We're not here to tell anyone what to believe or not to believe. We're not promoting any specific ideology or philosophy or religion for that matter. We're just trying to give people an opportunity to tell their own stories. And then also in addition to that, if you're watching this and you're going through these kinds of questions, give you a space to understand that you're not alone.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:01:19] If you find these conversations valuable and you want to help us to continue producing this miniseries, Exvangelical Stories, beyond the five episodes that we're doing now, you can support the project through Open Stories Foundation. Again, that's the nonprofit organization. The donation link is going to be in the description below. And one more thing before we get started. If you're questioning your Christian beliefs, specifically, you're deconstructing those religious beliefs. You're trying to rebuild your life after that. I also want to invite you to a relatively new online, private, very heavily moderated community called Decon Recon. It's a safe space, really, to ask honest questions, process what you're experiencing, and really start to connect with people who understand what you're going through.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:02:06] And there's no pressure, again, in that space to believe or not believe anything. There's no evangelizing, no debates in there. It's just honest conversations and community. You'll find the link to Decon Recon in the description as well. So let's get into it today. My guest is a new friend, Timmy Gibson. He's a former Evangelical Pentecostal pastor and this guy spent 50 years in Christianity, and 30 of those years, he was preaching and teaching the Bible. Now, Timmy's going to tell you a story. He grew up in the church. He attended Bible college and eventually planted and pastored his own congregation.

Who Is Timmy Gibson

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:02:40] I would say it's safe to say that Christianity shaped virtually every single aspect of his life. I mean, even his identity. It was the lenses through which he saw the world. Now, today, and you'll hear this. His. His beliefs are dramatically different. And we're going to explore how that happened, what it cost him, and what life is looking like for Timmy on the other side of that. So, Timmy, welcome.

Timmy Gibson [00:03:03] Hey, good to see you, brother. Yeah,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:03:06] man, I'm excited about this as. I've been waiting for this. I've been watching

Timmy Gibson [00:03:08] you. Yeah, I've been watching you. I saw you on Harmonic Atheist.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:03:14] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Timmy Gibson [00:03:16] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:03:16] Tim. Tim Mills.

Timmy Gibson [00:03:17] Yep, yep, yep. Good guy.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:03:19] You were on there, too. I watched your. I watched your. I watched your story on there. You went. You went for a couple hours with that guy. You. You got. You dove deep.

Timmy Gibson [00:03:27] Yes, we did. He had a lot of good questions.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:03:30] Well, man, thanks for doing this. I know you're a busy man these days, so.

Timmy Gibson [00:03:33] Yeah, absolutely. It's my own.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:03:35] Yeah. So. So let's just jump right in. Take me into Timmy's childhood. What did it mean to grow up in the assembly of God denomination? You know? You're going to tell us. Your mother was playing piano, dad leading worship. There's a lot going on. What did that look like?

Born on the Church Pew: Growing Up Pentecostal

Timmy Gibson [00:03:51] Yeah, so I'm. The classic story of when people say they were born on the church pew. You know, I. I was from my earliest memories, as soon as I was born, within days of my birthday, I was in church in our little assembly of God church here in Kansas City. And, yeah, my mom was the pianist, my dad was the worship leader. And they also traveled as worship leading, like evangelists. You know, they go church to church, little country churches, and they would, you know, take over and do the music, and my dad would give a little encouraging word and there'd be an altar call at the end.

Timmy Gibson [00:04:28] And so, yeah, I mean, it was everything. I was heavily indoctrinated. This is the way the world is. You know, there is a God and Jesus died for you and he loves you and you're special, you know, So I. I always thought, you know, I was knit together in my mother's womb, you know, and so that went on.

Timmy Gibson [00:04:50] I was. I was a typical teenager, you know, when I got into my teenage Years, you know, I was a. A little rebellious here and there. What I would have called at the time being backslidden. Those that come from our background would understand that word. For me, when I think of the word backslidden, it's different. Some Christians would think I or you, like, we're backslidden, but that's not actually true because to me, to be backslidden means that you kind of really still believe it. You're. You've just walked away from what you know to be true. And the, the reality is that I'm not backslidden because it's.

Timmy Gibson [00:05:24] I know it not to be true. And so it was an intentional walking away. I. I reasoned myself right out of the belief that I once held so deep. So, yeah, after high school, I went off to seminary, went to Assembly God Seminary, called Central Bible College in Springfield, Missouri, and went there for a year, year and a half to two years, left there, came home, did an internship at my home CH Church, Assembly God Church. My pastor at the time, I won't mention his name, but he was a big TBN guy. He was on with Paul and Jan Crouch all the time.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:06:00] So what's tbn? Jump in there. You're gonna tell Trinity

Timmy Gibson [00:06:03] Broadcast Network Paul and Jan Crouch, she was. This was real similar to like the Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, a little bit more modern version of that. The lady had big pink hair and, you know, they were very, you know, hopefully I'm not trying to offend anybody here, but just very weird. Even for Christians, they felt like they were pretty weird. And, you know, again, I was raised in that fundamental evangelical, you know, tongue talking. The Bible was literally true. You know, I was a creationist. I believed that dinosaur bones were put in the earth either by the devil to trick us or by God, which would be weird.

Timmy Gibson [00:06:44] Or, you know, that just at creation that all the fossils were in the earth. That was the only way that I could really reconcile that belief in. In possibly the earth being old, which I didn't believe that it was. So, yeah, after cbc, came home, did an internship, and then went back to Bible college and finished out my two years at Rhema Bible Training center, which is a word of faith school.

Timmy Gibson [00:07:08] The founder of that ministry is Kenneth Hagin, a very famous word of faith preacher. He's since passed and graduated in 1994. And, you know, that's when it really began. I actually had my first youth pastorate position back in 1990. I was paid $25 a month

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:07:33] to

Timmy Gibson [00:07:33] be a youth pastor. So when people think that you get rich in ministry. That's. That's only the TV preachers that really are making that happen. And yeah, that, that's. That. That kind of brings you up to, through. When I started in ministry and then following that, I, you know, was a youth pastor at a mega church. Like a teaching pastor, youth pastor at a megachurch. The pastor used to work for John Osteen, which is Joel Osteen's father, who's since passed that lake, that little small church down in Houston, and did that for several years. And then eventually, and finally I came and started my own church here in Kansas City and, and was the lead senior pastor, founding Pastor for 17, 18 years.

Timmy Gibson [00:08:14] And we grew to about 300 at our peak. And my beliefs just started to change. You know, frankly, you know, Todd, I don't know exactly your story, but for me it was very gradual. You know, I was a fundamental, I was a literalist. You know, the Bible is literally true, right? It's literally the word of God. No contradictions. You know, it's just perfect. And then I'm like, ah, no, I think there are some contradictions in there. I mean, if just read it, you know, it's like right there.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:08:40] All right, all right, don't, don't give away rest of the story. Hold on, hold on. I wanna, I wanna get back. Let's get back to childhood. I wanna, I want you to hang out because I want them to. I want them to see. Because I think one of the biggest things, as I've watched lots of interviews, I think one of the biggest things that I'm, I think may be missing in a lot of these interviews that I've watched. For a lot of people going through, deconstruction is really the, the foundational components of the belief structure, right? Not, not. We'll get to that. Deconstruction. But what made Timmy.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:09:10] Timmy, right? What I want to like, give me. You were telling in one interview, like, take me back to this time there was, if I remember it right, you were, you had invited, you'd gone to a Catholic mass, I believe, with some friends. I don't know if this was childhood or your teen years, but then also took them to your church. Take us back into that. How old were you when that happened? Give us some details on that. Because I think that help people really get a picture of where you were and what you believed and what your passions were.

Timmy Gibson [00:09:37] Sure, absolutely. Great question. So, yeah, my earlier years was Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and any prayer meeting, revival meeting, camp meeting, any kind of Special speaker. So church was not just a part of my life. It wasn't something that I did like on holidays. You know, they call them CNA Christians, you know, Christmas and Easter. No, no, no, no, no. This was not something that I did half heartedly. This wasn't something that I did on the side. It really wasn't a part of my life. It was my life, every fiber of my being. So, yeah, you know, I remember that I was just junior high, so teenager. Ish.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:10:21] Okay.

Timmy Gibson [00:10:22] I had a friend that invited me to go to his Catholic church. And I said, yeah, I'll go to your church if you come to my church. And of course, you know, my Pentecostal church was so different from his Catholic church. I mean, the, the sitting and the kneeling and the standing and the reading back, all the. That was odd. You know, for me, it was just very liturgical and very rehearsed and, and to me seemed very cold. It didn't seem relatable. It just seemed real monotone.

Timmy Gibson [00:10:53] Yeah, it was very, very foreign. Very foreign to me. And you know, again, no offense to all the Catholics out there, it was very foreign. Well, it didn't become all that clear to me until then they came to my service.

Timmy Gibson [00:11:08] And it was also very foreign. Right. You know, people, again, Pentecostal, people falling out on the floor, people snaking around down the aisle, people speaking in tongues, you know, people praying out loud, people holding hands. Be. I mean, I thought it was normal. You know, it's like this is how you. This is what church is, right? Like, this is what God wants. This is what God wants.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:11:34] So you're watching. You're watching your environment. Maybe. Was that, Was that maybe the first time you really saw it through someone else's eyes, so to speak?

Timmy Gibson [00:11:41] Yeah, yeah. I, I didn't realize how weird it was. I, you know, I, I remember prefacing my friend on the way. You know, we went and picked him up and I said, hey, just FYI, you know, based upon your Catholic church and what I experienced, this is definitely going to be a little different. It's more exuberant. You know, people are definitely feeling it and you know, people. Yeah, it's going to seem a little different. And I was starting, even at his church, I remember thinking, oh, wow, like, okay, is this what a lot of people think of, of church? Because this is not what's going on at my little church. And so I gave him a little bit of a prep, but I didn't prep him enough. I clearly didn't prep enough.

Experiencing Pentecostal Worship as an Insider

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:12:25] Well, take so Take the viewers into that, right? You're walking. I want them to imagine you're walking in with these Catholic attendees, right? These people that you've gone to the Catholic Church, you've seen the liturgy, the high church environment, so to speak. It's much more conservative, much more chill. It couldn't be actually further from what they walked into. So when you talk about. You mentioned, I think, you know, speaking in tongues and people praying out loud and getting slain in the spirit and things like that. What. What are those things? What does this look like? What. What's the scene?

Timmy Gibson [00:12:57] Yeah, well, the scene for someone not used to it is complete and utter insanity, really. But. But for me, it. This is what we do, right? If you're filled with the Holy Spirit, you speak in tongues, or if God is speaking through you, you're given a message to the congregation. You know, you feel this utterance. You know, we used to say, if you feel the utterance of the Holy Spirit and what the Holy Spirit is for those that don't understand what the Holy Spirit is for a Pentecostal, what, what. What I used to believe is that it's the initial evidence of being and having the Holy Spirit within you is the evidence is speaking in tongues.

Timmy Gibson [00:13:35] It's. It's a secret language. Is how. How we. How I used to teach it is. It's a language that no one can understand but God. It's basically your spirit. This is, again, what I used to believe. My spirit. That's the God part of me that's been born again. That spirit is communicating directly to God in only a voice that God understands. So the thing is, it sounds like gibberish. It is, but it sounds like gibberish to anyone else hearing it. And it also is gibberish to the devil. So the devil can't even get a clue on what you're saying to God that way. See, the devil can't screw it all up and mess.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:14:18] Yeah. And that all made sense, right? To you? It all made sense. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And so they. They walk into this environment and you saw it as normal. You saw it through their eyes and thought, wow, this must be very different for them.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:14:33] Did you. So you believe that the spirit of God was inside you? You and I share. I wasn't Pentecostal, but we share a lot of very similar kind of beliefs in our own traditions. I was Southern Baptist Bible Church, that kind of stuff. But other than the Pentecostal components, like speaking in tongues, getting slayed in the spirit, both of us, you and I, Believe that the Spirit of God now dwelled inside us and spoke to God and gave us connection with God. You know the passage, the man without the Spirit, I think 1 Corinthians 2:14, the man without the spirit cannot understand the things of God.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:15:03] It's foolishness to him. Right. So only with the spirit of God can you really understand the things of God. I really want to bring this into this story because I don't, I don't believe people from outside conservative theological, kind of high control religious environments, and specifically, I would say Pentecostal environments which you grew up in. You can only describe it so much. I mean, you really do have to experience a Pentecostal service.

Timmy Gibson [00:15:30] Absolutely.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:15:30] To really understand what it is that's being described here. Right?

Timmy Gibson [00:15:34] Yeah, yeah, it's definitely. We used to say that it's, it's a feeling. In fact, you know, Todd, this is something that interesting that the church that I grew up in, on the outside of the door, there was a, there was a coat rack right outside the sanctuary door. And above the coat rack it said, check your brain and your coat at the door. Right.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:15:53] Wow.

Timmy Gibson [00:15:53] And, and it was said often from the pulpit that the greatest are. One of the greatest enemies to God is your mind. It's the one thing that can stand in the way of, of your relationship with God. It's by faith, right? Faith is looked at as a virtue. Faith is of the highest. You know, it's impossible to please God without faith. The Bible teaches, right? And then in Hebrews 11, faith is the substance of things hoped for. It's the evidence of things seen. Meaning. Faith is the evidence. It's that it's, you know, and people can say faith whatever they want to say. Faith is, it's believing in something without a shred of evidence.

Timmy Gibson [00:16:39] It's, it's just believing, you know, something just based on the, someone's word or the word or whatever. It's just I believe it. And the, the teaching was believe it, have faith in it, and then you'll see it. You can't see it without faith. You got to see it by faith, which is, you know, there's a, there's a great movie, one of the Indiana Jones movies that I used to, I used to use in my sermons all the time. And he was getting ready to cross this great cavern and, and between these two caves, and he's looking out this cave entrance and it looks like it just drops down forever.

Timmy Gibson [00:17:17] And then, you know, 50ft across there's a, an opening and he looks down and then he's, he says, oh, that's right. Only the faith, by faith shall you pass. And he takes that step of faith. And when he does, the wall, the walkway appears as he's, you know, and I used to teach that all the time and I used to really genuinely believe this, that by faith you could manifest the unbelievable. You know, by faith you could pray your cancer away. By faith you could move a mountain. By faith you could walk on water, which I tried many times, never did do it.

Timmy Gibson [00:17:56] And yeah, faith was the utmost of, of importance and especially with the slant that I was, was a part of. So, you know, back to your initial question. Yeah, so it's, you know, the services that I grew up in were extremely expressive and in fact now very smart people are Christians, of course, very intellectual people are, are Christians. And in fact, it takes a special type of high intelligence to be able to do the mental gymnastics to, to make something connect when it shouldn't connect or make sense of something when it just doesn't make any sense. It, it takes a kind of a super intelligence there.

Timmy Gibson [00:18:37] So, you know, I would never say that Christians are dumb though. When I look at some of the beliefs that I used to hold, you know, they weren't based upon any kind of evidence. It was, it was dogma. You know, it was, in fact, I heard someone say this recently. They said, you know, what would it take?

Timmy Gibson [00:19:00] Could anything change your mind? And if not, then, you know, you're, you're accepting something blindly and unwilling to think, you know, you're it. And if you ask me what would change my mind? Well, evidence, I mean, hands down, I mean, for me, my bias now is not dogma. It's not anything other than, well, I don't, if I don't know what I believe, I'm going to research and find out. What's the evidence say? If the evidence says, yeah, this is real, like the earth is a sphere, well then, okay, I'm gonna go with that. You know, if all the evidence led to the earth is flat, then I would believe it's flat.

Timmy Gibson [00:19:44] And that was the difference I think from my childhood is I had developed a very magical thinking mind. And so I believed in ghosts and goblins and demons, demons and devils and, and, and spirits and, and it led to lots of anxiety that was very anxiety ridden as a kid, especially the fear of hell. But there's also this built in fear as a child.

Timmy Gibson [00:20:12] If I do good, God will bless me. If I do bad, God will smite me or I'm going to give room for the devil to come in and you know, Todd, I can't, I can't tell you how toxic that is now, now that I've been going through the deconstruction process and have gone to a lot of therapy to kind of unravel a lot of the childhood teachings that I had held so dear and were packaged in such a beautiful God, love, Jesus, grace, mercy package were extremely toxic, you know, and not a good way to, to, to think and to see the world, you know, and I thought it was the way, I thought it was the way to see the world.

Timmy Gibson [00:20:58] Right. I mean, it's the way, the truth and the life. Like, you know, I was building my house on the solid rock. And in fact, that's not at all what was going on ultimately.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:21:11] Well, you and I both, we bought into the idea that we saw through a set of lenses. You know, God is perfect, all knowing, all loving, all powerful. And the Bible is perfect. Right. And

Timmy Gibson [00:21:23] so

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:21:24] you look through those two lenses and they are the hub of the spoke of your reasoning. And once you've decided God is perfect and the Bible's perfect, anything that doesn't match up with those two realities is certainly questionable at best and, and just flat out wrong the way we perceived it. And the reason I want to bring that up is that I want people to understand, you know, Timmy as a child was in this, experiencing this through the lenses of a perfect God and a perfect word. And so that level of anxiety is a very real thing. I talked to many people who, I wasn't a Christian when I was Young, I was 24 when I became a Christian, so I didn't experience it the same way you did, but the level of pressure and anxiety and stress, the weight of the world on the shoulders of an eight year old, for example, or a teenager is quite, can be quite heavy.

Hiding Doubts from Family and Community

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:22:11] You know, you mentioned. I remember hearing this again. I've watched a couple of your interviews and I'm fascinated by your story. You talked at one point in your childhood about learning that. I think this is very interesting, especially in light of where your parents were and the positions they held within the church. You talked about your. There were things in your family. You learned that there was things inside your family you didn't talk about. Maybe, you know, things in Christianity that were appropriate to be kept hidden.

Timmy Gibson [00:22:40] Yes.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:22:41] What did, what was that all about? What did it teach you about being, you know, a good Christian?

Timmy Gibson [00:22:45] Yeah. Wow, that's a, I don't know what interview. I must have opened up about that. So I've

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:22:50] seen several, man. I watched a bunch.

Timmy Gibson [00:22:52] Well, that's, you know, that, that, that is a very real part of my journey because here we were, this perfect little Christian family. But the truth of the matter was the family that I was in at the time, they were each on their third marriage. So my mother had been married and divorced from my biological father, who has since passed, and then married and divorced another man and then married the third man. And then the person that she married had also gone through two marriages before, and then this was his third marriage. And this is all in the church. They met in church, in fact, met through leading worship and singing and being involved in the worship team. And so there were those shenanigans and that at that time, I was six. I was six years old. So,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:23:47] you

Timmy Gibson [00:23:48] know, I spent a lot of time with my, my papa and, and his. My grandma, who, you know, that was an interesting story. He ended up running off with another woman, and that was a whole nother story, right?

Timmy Gibson [00:24:02] So that's a part of my family. Right? But these are things that we're to keep quiet and not talk about. And in fact, I was told as a, as a 6, 7, 8 year old, hey, no one needs to know that I'm not your real dad.

Timmy Gibson [00:24:17] And, you know, as a little Christian boy, right, Even as a little kid, I remember thinking, well, that doesn't seem honest, though. You know, like, there's something about that seemed deceitful, right? And so I was struggling in my mind trying to reconcile this, being this good little Christian that's honest and fair and loving and all these things, right? And that just seemed counter to. To the whole message of what I thought we were supposed to live and portray. And, and not only that, you know, I, for the most part, like, I had a good home. Like, you know, I was loved and fed and all that kind of stuff, for sure.

Timmy Gibson [00:24:59] But there were these secrets and these things that were just. I was told to keep those things private. It's no one's business about these things. And also encouraged to lie, essentially. Now, they never said that, right? They didn't say, I want you to lie because that is wrong right out of the gate. But it was, hey, this is no one else's business. No one needs to know that I'm not your real father. And so that was definitely traumatic. I actually, as an adult, went to counseling for. For a good little minute to, to work through being such a young little boy required to hide and lie, which I don't know about you, Todd, but for me, that that set the groundwork for pretty much my entire Christian life was a life of hiding and lying. Because

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:25:53] I don't want to. I don't want to miss this. Yeah, Yeah. I don't want to miss this. I'm sorry for interrupting you.

Timmy Gibson [00:25:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:25:58] I just. This is powerful, right? I think when I was listening to your story, what was so, again, intriguing. And again, you and I've lived similarities, but a lot of differences in our childhood and this idea of secrecy and keeping things from people and it flying in the face, at least in the face of certain passages that speak about you being a new creation. The new has come.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:26:21] Your baptism symbolizes the death of your old self. So all that stuff's gone. And the new creation that you are and you can still tell the story about your past, to speak about the power of God in your life and on and on and on. Right. We've been through the same thing. But you were taught at the age of six to keep that secret, to not tell those stories, to not be genuine, to not be authentic. And the pressure that created as a child, then you say here, just. Just a moment ago, that shaped everything. So I want to stick with this. So you're six years old.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:26:49] You start to realize this. It. You now have looked back on it in counseling, realizing this has shaped the entirety of your life just a year later. Am I right about this? So about a year later, when you're seven, that's when you pray the sinner's prayer. That's when you become a Christian. Tell that story. So this is just a year or less than a year from the story we just talked about.

Timmy Gibson [00:27:08] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:27:09] So tell us about what happened that day or that night.

Timmy Gibson [00:27:11] Yeah. So it was an early. Oh, it might have been a night. I think it was nighttime, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. Yeah. I'm seven years old and I had just gotten home. In fact, this is odd that I remember it was a Sunday night because I had gotten home from church and it was taught the whole heaven and hell. I think, in fact, I think one. We may have recently watched that Thief in the Night movie.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:27:37] Oh,

Timmy Gibson [00:27:37] sure. Yeah. And so that. That scared me. And I thought, man, I. I don't want to be left, you know, I don't want. Because I knew. I thought I knew that at the time. Like, well, my parents, like, if. If Jesus comes back when the rapture happens, like, my folks are going and I might not go. And, you know, what am I going to do here on Earth all alone? I've been for my.

Timmy Gibson [00:28:00] So yeah, it was with probably some fear in my heart as well as, you know, just the emotions that you feel as a little kid that thinks they are knowing something. Yeah, I literally knelt down beside my bed and I prayed the sinner's prayer, inviting Jesus to, into my heart, to be my Lord and to be my Savior and ask God to forgive me of all my sins through Jesus. And, and I, you know, remember telling my parents and then the following Sunday I, you know, the pastor had me come up in front of the whole church. You know, Timmy gave his heart to Jesus.

Timmy Gibson [00:28:34] And so I, you know, as a little kid got there and told my little story of accepting Jesus. And then it was not too long after that that I was water baptized in a lake and just wanted to be as authentic as I possibly could. Right.

Timmy Gibson [00:28:49] Didn't want to do a baptismal or a pool. I want to do a lake. And so, yeah, was baptized. And then it took me a while to speak in tongues, man. I, I, you know, I've always been a fairly logical, rational person and in most areas of my life, clearly not this area. And so I always just, I didn't want to fake it. You know, I was like, if I, I just, every time I'd be prayed for to get the tongues and even when it was modeled for me, you know, they just say, la la, la, la la. You know, they just try to get you to just say what I'm doing, do what I'm doing.

Timmy Gibson [00:29:22] I was just like, yeah, that seems fake. You know, I don't want to be fake. You know, I'm all about being real. I want to be honest. I want to be authentic. Right. As much as possible. Because most of my life is just not about being authentic. It's, it's about hiding and lying and keeping secrets and it, it's only, only things that can be held against you are what people know. If they don't know it, then you didn't do it. And yeah, that, that, that began my journey. Then I felt called into the ministry, like as a young boy. I still have, I think it's in my safe.

Timmy Gibson [00:29:52] I have a piece of paper that says I when I grow up, I want to be a pastor. E R P A S T E R and then I signed me and I was like seven, eight years old, you know, and so

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:30:05] when does Christianity stop being just the world you're raised in and becoming something that you, you know, decide to devote your life to? Let's talk about that.

Timmy Gibson [00:30:14] Yeah, so I, yeah, fast forward to high school, I was like any typical. Most typical teenagers, you know, I was a little trying, trying, you know, a little marijuana, trying a little drinking, trying a little, you know, all the things, right? And then my hormones were kicking in and I was realizing how much I liked girls. And so that was a constant struggle. And, you know, and that's another piece of Christianity that I just find so toxic.

Timmy Gibson [00:30:43] You. I couldn't feel good because all my desires, I was told all. Every desire that I was having was these fleshly, carnal, devilish desires. You know, being. Wanting to be with a. With a woman was. That's. That's deviant. That's terrible. You know, wanting to experience life, wanting to dance, wanting to, you know, anything, trying to try cigarettes and try all the stuff that was just very. Just a normal part of childhood to me were absolute attacks of the devil. Like, these were sinful, sinful things. This was the enemy, right? Coming out to destroy my very soul and drag me to hell. So for me, these were big issues.

Timmy Gibson [00:31:33] So anytime I did any of these things, I just was heaped with guilt and shame in and of myself, right? It's not like any one person was putting it on me. It was the whole culture that I lived in, you know, that your righteousness is as filthy rags, the Bible says, you know, so I couldn't be good enough to earn heaven. It wasn't about being good enough. In fact, one of the most common things that Christians like to say is, I'm just a sinner saved by grace. Which is a way of just saying, just try to justify, you know, all my. My shady behavior. You know, I'm just a sinner.

Timmy Gibson [00:32:07] I'm. I'm not perfect. Jesus was perfect. No, I wasn't. You know, so it's just this. This weird game you play, and then it kind of turns into. Even in high school, you know, I was at church every Sunday morning, every Sunday night, every Wednesday night. And yet secretively, I was doing, you know, I was listening to rock music. Of course, when I get to church, I'd put the radio station. This is back in the day when you had buttons. And, you know, I'd turn back the Christian station, you know, so if any of my friends got in my car, I had Christian music playing. You know, when on the way to church, I was playing Motley Crue, whatever, you know, and this sounds.

Timmy Gibson [00:32:46] So this. I know that this sounds silly to probably most people listening, except those that can resonate with this and have this similar story. It sounds wild, and it is wild and I just didn't realize how wild it was because I was in it. It didn't seem weird to me that our youth group had us throw in all of our cassette tapes of our rock music and to burn them. That, like the Satanic panic stuff, that was a very real era that I lived through and was very real. And I was in a mixed. You know, I was in the thick of it, believing that, you know, all these things are evil.

Timmy Gibson [00:33:26] This music, this rock music was put together by the devil to pull us away from God. That's. That's literally how I viewed rock music. But I loved rock music and I didn't want to give it up. And so it was this constant tug of war. I'd listen to rock music and I'd ask God to forgive me. I'd listen to rock music, and then I'd repent and ask God to forgive me. And then I would listen. This is my. This is my life all the way through, up and through high school. And then when it was my senior year, I had just graduated and I finally got the spoken tongues.

Timmy Gibson [00:33:59] And at this revival service, you know, you know, everybody's praying in tongues, everybody's, you know, crying out to God. And everybody had always told me I was going to be a preacher when I grew up, that God's call was on my life. You know, it's a common thing. And in the circles that I run in, you know, where when someone prays for you, they say, I feel the. I feel the call of God on your life that one day you're going to do great things for God and God's going to use you to win souls around the world. And of course, I was like, yep, that's me.

Timmy Gibson [00:34:26] I'm going to be awesome. I'm going to do great things. I'm going to be a preacher. And so I, what we call accepted, accepted that call in. In the ministry and that. And of course that leads up into the, you know, the Bible college days.

A Calling to Ministry and Bible College

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:34:39] So I want to talk a bit more about calling. It certainly was the case for me, and it sounds like it was for you. The calling of God on your life. I don't think it can be. I mean, I don't think there enough can be said about just how serious that is within the circles that we were in. I mean, you. You are having people affirm this idea. You're feeling the spirit of God supposedly telling you that you have a call in your life. You feel special because this is the God of the universe, the God of all creation, the God of eternity who's saying, hey, Timmy, you're my man.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:35:17] And then other people around you are laying their hands on you. They're affirming that. And we call it a calling of God on your life. And I know you've expressed that a bit, but let's dive in a bit more. I mean, once you decide or once it's been affirmed by those around you that you have this calling on your life, what does that moment do? What. You know, I just find it to define it for me as a fork in the road to never go back this way. This is a. There's a new understanding of reality. Talk about what that felt like to you as a young. As a. As a teenager.

Timmy Gibson [00:35:48] Yeah, yeah. You know, that's. That it felt great. I don't know what else to say except that, you know, in the culture that I was raised in, I was taught that this was of the utmost. Like, this is. This is a more powerful position than the President of the United States. You know, this is. This is a greater thing than being a doctor or a lawyer or a surgeon or. You know what I mean? Like, this is the. This is like. Yeah, this is of the highest. You know,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:36:24] I think you said it well right there. It's higher than being the president.

Timmy Gibson [00:36:29] Exactly.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:36:29] I mean, you know, I've never heard it quite expressed that way, and that's probably the best way that I've heard it. Like, it is the highest calling on a person's life. And Timmy got it.

Timmy Gibson [00:36:39] Right,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:36:40] Right? I mean, you got picked.

Timmy Gibson [00:36:42] Yes, I got

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:36:43] picked. It really drives everything. It drives your thinking, your actions from that moment on. Everything. Right?

Timmy Gibson [00:36:48] Yeah, yeah. No, it's. It's absolutely. I don't know why my camera all of a sudden is blurry. Sorry. I don't know why. It's still.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:36:58] I think it still looks. Julie,

Timmy Gibson [00:37:00] look good on your end. Okay, good. Yeah. So, yeah, it felt great. I felt very validated. I felt very important. I felt like my life truly, truly, truly matters and. And, you know, matters more than most everyone else's life. And as sad as that is. Right. I felt like it was. I'm so special that God wants to use me for ministry.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:37:32] So you went. So let's. So once you've had this call of God on your life, you've got clarity on that. You. You mentioned very early on, we were talking at the very beginning about Central Bible College, I think, and then. Was it Rayma. Rayma. Right. So how did. How did that transition to Rhema not just influence this calling on Your life. But how did it influence your theology, particularly what you believed about, like, divine healing, prosperity, the intervention of God? Because I know there was a shift that happened there that was. That was pretty significant. Am I right?

Timmy Gibson [00:38:11] Yeah. And it was, it was, it was a challenge too. Yeah. This was a very curious time. I've been thinking about this actually recently, just because I remember I struggled so hard at first when I first went to Rhema. There were things taught that I just hadn't quite heard like that before. You know, the, the name, claim it. I remember at Rhema, they. They used to have us hold up our offering and, you know, you're talking a room of, you know, thousand, two thousand people, and the preacher, the pastor would have us all say in unison together, money cometh to me right now. And then the music would go, and then the offering buckets would come by and we'd throw our money in the offering and be like, in Jesus name.

Timmy Gibson [00:39:05] I'd, you know, this money, it's going to come back tenfold. There was this. It was so different because I wasn't used to this, like such an active, not aggressive necessarily, but just. So this confession, you know, confession brings possession. You know, if you say it enough, then you'll believe it. And then when you believe it, then you'll see it. Right. And, man, I believe that I. I'm telling you right now that that teaching still is in my being, not. Not in the sense of. Of just say it, it'll happen. Definitely not. I don't believe in God, obviously, I'm atheist, but it's. It's in my vibe of.

Timmy Gibson [00:39:51] I tend to always say the positive things. You know, I don't typically say negative things. I just don't. If there's a possibility for a good thing to happen or a bad thing to happen, I almost entirely focus on the positive yet, you know, I mean, I might make a plan if it doesn't go right, you know, this could happen. But that teaching has so ingrained in me that if you hung around me and, and didn't ask or didn't know, you might think I was still a. A name it, claim it. Word of faith kind of person. Yeah,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:40:26] that makes sense. Those things really do. Yeah. Yeah. It's in your DNA.

Timmy Gibson [00:40:30] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:40:30] Your spiritual DNA. Right. That religious DNA. So that name it, claim it. Let's talk a bit more about that for the, for those who might be watching that don't fully understand this, because I think. Well, I know this to be the case. A lot of people just cannot imagine why People fall into this line of reasoning, this name it, claim it. Health and wealth gospel. That's a phrase that's used often. God wants you to be wealthy. God wants you to be healed. God wants you to live a life of prosperity. That's what a faith filled life is. In fact, if you don't have wealth and you're not healthy, that's a deficiency in you,

Health and Wealth Gospel and Early Pastoral Life

Timmy Gibson [00:41:04] not

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:41:04] in God. Let's talk about that.

Timmy Gibson [00:41:06] Yeah, it's an absolute out. You being healthy and wealthy is assigned to the world of God in you. And, and it was taught to me, it comes from, you know, I think it's the book of Isaiah that you know, Jesus. It's supposedly a prophecy about Jesus. He'll be wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace is upon him and by him his stripes we were healed or are healed. And so it's not a matter of you're trying to get God's healing. This is the teaching. You're not trying to get God to heal you. You've already been healed through Jesus on the cross.

Timmy Gibson [00:41:50] And then on the prosperity piece, how that's taught is that Jesus was made poor so that we can be rich. So you know, Jesus suffered so that we don't have to suffer. Jesus was, had things taken from him so that we could be, have things given to us. And it was. And yeah, and obviously God's perfect. So if those things aren't happening in your life, well, it's definitely not God, right? It's not God, it's you. You don't have enough faith. You got sin in your heart, you have unforgiveness in your heart. Some, something's wrong with you. And you know, the, the truth is, and I'm, you know, I believe this stuff until I didn't and was in that world and had been around thousands and thousands of people at the, you know, the Word of Faith school, the ones that it's working for is a very few and mostly it's the ones that are preaching it is the, it's working for meaning.

Timmy Gibson [00:42:46] You know, all of the people out in the congregation are struggling, having a hard time, but they, they're trying to give them, give their way out of poverty. And you know, all the people on stage, they get rich, you know, and that's why you see all that, all the scandals and all this stuff with the TV preacher stuff, you know. Well, of course, you know that, that's a, that's a toxic, not true teaching that to activate your faith, to get healed, give a thousand dollars. What are you talking about?

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:43:19] So, yeah, so the, the deficiency then, Timmy, is in us, it's not in God. And, and that's a, that's a foundational theology that you were taught in Bible college. I was certainly taught in seminary that there is never a deficiency in God or his word. It is only, and can only be a deficiency in your own line of reasoning. His thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are higher than our ways. Lean not in, into our own understanding.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:43:46] Right. But all his ways are right. These are the kind of things that we were taught. And it causes us to question the very, very framework of our own logic and reason, our own ability to manage a specific situation and come up with our own determination. I think I want to talk a little bit about that. So you're, you're taught this health and wealth Gospel. If you don't, if you're not healthy, if you're not wealthy, it's a deficiency in you. How does that, how does that, how does that color your preaching? Because you buy into this full on, right? I mean, this becomes your theology after you go correct.

Timmy Gibson [00:44:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. This definitely color colors my teaching. And, and, and I would have been a, a mild health and wealth gospel preacher. You know, I was never one of those people that would be like, you know, check out my Rolex that God gave me. You know, like, that just wasn't my style, you know, but I definitely had the, the undertones of, you know, the blessing of the Lord, maketh rich and Jesus will heal you. And if you have any kind of sin in your life, cleanse that sin out if you have any hopes of being healed. So the, the teaching is definitely baked in there.

Timmy Gibson [00:45:02] It just wasn't as in your face. It was, I, I, I had, what would you call it? This is the wrong phrase, but you'll get the idea, like I had softened or dumbed down that teaching just because. The same with tongues, speaking in tongues. You know, when I started Pastor Moan Church, I, I was, you know, toning that stuff back because I was starting to become aware this is a little weird, you know, it's a little odd. And I wanted to be a relative, a church that could relate to, to people, you know, and that health and wealth gospel really only relates to a certain group of people and they weren't living in the city where I was pastoring.

Timmy Gibson [00:45:45] Right. So, but yeah, it was really baked in. And so there's this constant guilt. This is a constant, this is a, this is A reoccurring theme in, in my life. Guilt and shame. Guilt and shame. Trying to live up to this message and, and trying to live up to the teachings that I'm teaching even. Right. It's, it's. I'm, I'm feeling like a poser. I'm feeling like a hypocrite. You know, I'm, I'm saying to live a certain way and yet I'm struggling to live that way myself, you know, and so there's this constant again, disconnect. But I was a master at living a secret life, putting on the one version of me.

Timmy Gibson [00:46:32] And then I knew my own private struggles that were brewing in the background, you know, that I was personally working in and which, you know, which in a weird way, Todd, this is gonna sound just odd for anybody that doesn't isn't familiar with this background, but it also was the struggles that I was having necessarily weren't struggles that anybody in the normal world would have. It's only struggles because you're a Christian and you believe, you know, to touch yourself is a sin. To have premarital relations is a sin. You know, there's everything. Smoking's a sin, drinking's a sand, cussing is a sin. You know, everything's a sin.

Timmy Gibson [00:47:08] So, you know, I'm not talking about like I had these, you know, I wanted to, to, you know, kill people secretly. And I was struggling with not doing that. No, no, no, I'm just talking about struggles the of life that normal people are like what? That, that, that's not a struggle. That's not anything that doesn't have anything to do with immorality. It's, that's what you're set the stage for again. I'm feeling bad about listening to rock music. I'm feeling bad about looking at someone with lust in my heart. Remember, you know, Jesus says, I say if you even look upon a woman with lust in your heart, that you're guilty of it already, you know, so I'm, I'm, I'm feeling like just a terrible, terrible, terrible Christian, right?

Timmy Gibson [00:47:47] Because really, really, really believed it. You know, there's nothing more irritating than someone says he wasn't a real Christian. It's like I say stronger things on my channel, but that's just an ignorant statement that really just shows someone's ignorance of the Christian faith. Someone would only think that because they're a Christian. At that time, when I was a Christian, I would have told you there's no way I would have bet my children's lives on the fact that I would have never not been a Christian. No one's more shocked I'm an atheist than me. Yeah,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:48:20] same here. It's just

Timmy Gibson [00:48:21] like, you can't. Like, that's just something that is just an interesting thing to me that no one. I was seriously committed. I read my Bible every day. I prayed every day. I attempted to pray without ceasing. I genuinely prayed about everything. Every, everything. Before I bought a car, I prayed before I watched a movie, I prayed before I bought a book, I prayed before I. Like, if I told someone, hey, thoughts and prayers, I prayed for them. You know what I mean? Like, it was. This was a real, real, real thing for me. I was trying to live it with every fiber of my being, and yet it was tormenting. I was struggling so hard to. To measure up to the thing that I'm preaching.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:49:08] Could you, in your theology, could you lose your salvation?

Timmy Gibson [00:49:13] Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I didn't believe in the. The once saved, always saved theology. I believe. Yeah,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:49:21] that's where we differ. I find this interesting. So in your Pentecostal, and I know this to be true for many, if not most Pentecostal denominations, you can lose your salvation. So for me, I was a Southern Baptist. It's with the first church I went to. So I believe that once you were. Once you were in the family of God, you can't be unbirthed. Right. I used to say this from the pulpit, you know, just as ludicrous as it would be for you to be unbirthed back into your mother's womb. So it would be ludicrous to talk about being unbirthed from the family of God. You are born again. You cannot be unborn. Right. That's my

Timmy Gibson [00:49:52] love of God.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:49:53] Nothing can separate you from the love of God. All right, so that was mine. Right. And yours was exactly like, what would you say? So you can't. You can't lose your salvation. What would you say from the pulpit in that situation?

Timmy Gibson [00:50:02] Yeah, I would

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:50:02] say that you

Timmy Gibson [00:50:03] could. It had to be an intentional decision. I wasn't just, if you sin, that that was walking away, but that you could make an intentional decision to walk away from the faith and reject the message of Jesus Christ. And at that point, you would be lost.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:50:20] Okay. Yeah. And I think that's important to, you know, there. There are so many Christianities out there.

Timmy Gibson [00:50:26] Yes, there are. You know,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:50:27] what is like 40

Timmy Gibson [00:50:28] denominations?

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:50:29] Yeah, there's. Well, there's. Yeah, there's 40,000 denominations plus worldwide. And then I argue and I've done videos on this, I argue that there's actually a denomination in reality for every human being that believes in Christianity and some version of it. We all have our own denomination. We all have our own theology. We negotiate with the text to decide what it is that we believe. But here, you and I both educated. Both, you know, advanced degrees and education in Bible study, and we come with polar opposites in our perspective toward our former perspectives toward salvation. It's a great example of a primary. Well, I would argue the primary

Timmy Gibson [00:51:03] subject,

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:51:05] salvation, right. And not only how you get it, but can you keep it? Another piece of this that I find interesting, and I'm always curious about different denominations, is this whole idea of God speaking to you. Because certainly in the Pentecostal Church, as I understand it, and within my denomination as well, God speaks. Spoke to you. Now, some people would say he audibly spoke. I never heard an audible voice from God. My kids used to ask me, does God speak to you in a voice you can hear? I go, no, it's much louder than that. That's what I would say to my kids, right? It's like, oh, it's so much deeper. It's so much more than just an audible voice. But, you know, at the time, I believed that. What was that for you? What. How did you know when God was speaking to you?

Timmy Gibson [00:51:46] Yeah, it was that. That's still small voice, right? And this is a great question because I love this topic because I. I get this question from my listeners. They'll say, you know, did you ever have an encounter with God? Did God ever speak to

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:52:00] you?

Timmy Gibson [00:52:00] And I said, well, yeah, at the time, I thought that was God speaking to me. But this will be interesting for people to know. As an atheist, I still hear voices, right? And what I know those are just my own voices. It's just me talking to me, you know, you know, should I. Should I go here or do this or should I eat this, eat this or eat this, or should I buy this or should I. You know, when I was single, should I ask this person out or this person out or, you know, all those conversations are going on in your head. You know, I just assign them to God.

Timmy Gibson [00:52:32] And especially if it was something good, you know, if God is. Or if it was go do something good, well, that's clearly God. And if it was go do something bad, well, that's clearly. That's the devil, right? And. And I still have those same kinds of things going on in my life now. Obviously, it's not God and the devil. It just would be, I guess My higher sel, you know, that wants to do good, be good and be altruistic and be kind and, you know, and then there's the other part, that self preservation, you know, lie to make it sound better and like all that stuff.

Timmy Gibson [00:53:03] Right. And now as a human, I, I decide which is what I think the more honorable, better thing to be as a human. It's not about heaven and hell, sin and not sin, backsliding, disappointing God, hurting God's feelings, crucifying Jesus all over again. Like all this stuff that I used to believe.

Timmy Gibson [00:53:22] It's just. No, I'm. I'm a human and sometimes I want to appear smarter than I am, better than I am, more successful than I am. And then other times I feel more. I want to be honest and humble and whatever and, you know, it's for me to decide what I'm going to do.

Timmy Gibson [00:53:41] And I say this often. It still shocks me. I talked to a psychologist about this recently on my show. I'm a better person as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian. And again, I wasn't like a terrible Christian. It's just I'm a better person. I'm more honest. I'm more moral as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.

Timmy Gibson [00:54:07] Explain that. I mean, the psychologist explained it and I thought she did a beautiful job of kind of tapping into what that, what that was and why that is. You know, if you have a, a police officer that's with you and you're not, you're not speeding because there's a police car there, that's different than. I want to obey the laws of the land and I don't want to get in an accident and I want to be, you know, whatever. There's two different ways to live now. I just live in an internally moral life internally. I want to do good because it's better to do good for others and for myself and for everyone else.

Timmy Gibson [00:54:42] And, yeah, a lot less selfish. Again, I can't explain it. I know it sounds nutty. I, I don't know if it resonates with you, if. How you are. Very

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:54:51] much so.

Timmy Gibson [00:54:52] Oh, okay.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:54:53] Absolutely. Yeah. I've. I've done videos and talked with friends and, and had conversations with counselors about that very thing. By the way, we're going to have all the links, Timmy, for your, your podcast, your YouTube channels, etc, so people can go watch that, that very discussion you have with that psychologist. I think that would be a remarkable one that I'd be interested in as well.

Timmy Gibson [00:55:11] Yeah.

Planting a Church and Facing Real-World Suffering

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:55:12] All right, let's do this. Let's move to your, your life in ministry. And kind of eventually what started to crack in, in your, your belief system for a while you were involved in these other mega churches. You had mentioned that before. Eventually you plant your own church.

Timmy Gibson [00:55:27] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [00:55:28] So take me back to the beginning of that because I know I've planted churches before. It's quite a, that's quite a challenging decision to make. The process is quite arduous. It can be very stressful. But obviously you felt God obviously speaking to you, telling you to do this. Take us back to that church plant those, those years.

Timmy Gibson [00:55:47] Yeah. So it was, I had known when I graduated Bible College in, in 1994 that eventually I would plant my own church. But I knew I needed to, to be mentored and to sit under some other successful church plants or churches just to, to learn and to grow.

Timmy Gibson [00:56:07] And so it was in, in the year 2003 that this call, this feeling of I want to start my own church in Kansas City, which is where I'm from, really started bubbling up. And I was on staff at the megachurch down in the Woodlands, Texas area, which is kind of just outside of Houston.

Timmy Gibson [00:56:29] And so I, you know, make plans, start putting together a team of people, you know, worship leader, someone that could do the music, someone that could do the student ministry. You know, like I'm trying to put the key pieces together because I was a part of a church planning organization that also trained me on how to plant a church. And so it was in 2003, in the fall, I moved back to Kansas City, started with all my pre launch meetings with some key people, about 10 people at the time for this launch of this church that I wanted to start. And in 2000, I'm sorry, 2002.

Timmy Gibson [00:57:09] So then 2003, I launched the church in Kansas City with 10 people to start. And quickly we grew to 100 people. The next year we grew to 200. By the third year we were at 300 and I think that Easter we nearly hit 600. We were a fast up and to the right, you know, growing church for a lot of different reasons and that it's really like a business. And I knew that even at the time, even all my training was that, you know, church is like a business and you have to market, you have to be doing things in the community. And you know, there's all these things that they teach you, very strategic, like a business, how to be successful at it.

Timmy Gibson [00:57:52] And then of course, then there's just the other pieces of having some key elements if you're in an area that has, you know, a lot of families, then you got to have a lot of stuff for the families, right? The kids, the youth and all that. So we were really targeted in to. To do that. And again, I was believing this wholeheartedly and was starting to see, even early on, some. Some pushback. You know, I believed that Jesus was of a particular political party, which was the political party that I was at the time. And I had people in my church that were of the other party.

Timmy Gibson [00:58:31] And so I'm starting to be challenged by people in my church. And, and especially because I was a creationist, there were certain things that I would say, and there were people in the church that. That they were science. You know, they were literate science people, so they knew the science and they would challenge me. And so early on, once the church started growing and we were up over 200, 300 people, I'm reaching a big enough audience that some of my fundamental literal, like Jonah was swallowed by a big fish believing guy. I'm being pushed on by people in the church that it. We're like, yeah, that's not a real story.

Timmy Gibson [00:59:11] That's an allegory for a. You know, of course we're still believing in Jesus and God and all the other imaginary mythical things. But I'm starting to be really questioned on some of my theology. And this is where it really starts getting interesting, because I'm a reader. I read three, four books a month. And so I'm reading because I'm like, that's interesting. Like, what they're saying is different than what I'm believing.

Timmy Gibson [00:59:43] And this was the key question right here, Todd. What if I'm wrong? That question is a question that was an early part of my. The very early beginnings of my deconstruction. What if I'm wrong? Like, what if the Baptists are right and you are saved? Always saved. You know, what. What if initially right, it was. What if another denomination was right and I was wrong, you know, because it has to be Christian because Christianity is right. Every other religion is wrong. But then it kept. It kept growing because I had a neighbor that moved in next to me, like, literally a neighbor. My son was best friends with his.

Timmy Gibson [01:00:24] Their son. And they were a Hindu family. And I had great, you know, conversations with them. They were super wonderful people. Their kid was this perfectly behaved, polite little kid, right? But in my mind, destined for hell because they were Hindu. And I remember just wrestling with all this stuff. I'm wrestling with all of my. Just within my own Christian denomination within my own religion. I'm struggling because like you said, there's some 40, 000 different ways to look at it and potentially more ways than there are people to look at it. Right. Everybody's personal interpretation, no one sees it the same. We know that. But now I'm starting to broaden my thinking is what if I'm wrong?

Timmy Gibson [01:01:14] Like what if I'm wrong? That Christianity is the truth? Like what if Hindus are right and, and I'm wrong? Or what if Jew, the Jews are right, Jesus wasn't the Messiah. They're still waiting. What if Jesus wasn't the Messiah? And man, this is really messing with me. This is really starting to cause me some, some what I would call healthy distress. I'm, I'm, I'm seeking, I'm, I'm asking, I'm knocking, I'm, I'm. The truth will set you free.

Timmy Gibson [01:01:50] You know, and you mentioned that scripture, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean on unto your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him. I have that tattooed on me. And I remember just, I had always been a person that valued the truth. That's, it's, what's interesting is that my journey of what I found so important and so critical to the Christian faith is exactly the thing that took me out of the Christian faith.

Timmy Gibson [01:02:16] You know, in the word, in the mouth of two or three witnesses. Let every word be established, you know, about seeking counsel and all the different things that I was, had learned in Christianity. I'm really putting these things into practice and I'm count the costs and you know, scripture and interpret scripture in light of, you know, like read things in context and all of a sudden the, the cards are just starting to, to fall, right? And I'm having these first hand encounters with people in the church who are tithing, they're given of their time, talent and treasure, right at the church. And I'm like, if you do that, God will bless you.

Timmy Gibson [01:02:58] And people going broke, people. I was a pastor during 2008, the housing crisis. I saw people lose their houses, lose their jobs, go bankrupt. One of the biggest givers and volunteers, one of the sweetest families in our church went bankrupt, lost their house.

Timmy Gibson [01:03:16] And I remember thinking something's not right here. Like something's not lining up. The example that I often give is, you know, water is what keeps us hydrated. You stop drinking water, you'll learn pretty quick you need to go back to drinking water, right? Because it works, it's real.

Timmy Gibson [01:03:39] This family, specifically this one family, I mean they were doing everything right. They were so precious. They were so sweet. They even adopted children. I mean, they were just like this model family. And man, I mean, they had health issue after health issue, financial issue after financial issue.

Timmy Gibson [01:03:57] And man, Todd, I'm just, just, I'm struggling. I'm, I'm, I'm really, I'm going to God in prayer going, what is going on here? Like,

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:04:07] so you have this conversation with it. Sorry. See the conversation though, so that with this family that's doing everything right, giving, loving, caring, doing all the right Christian stuff, and they're just having health problem after health problem, crisis after crisis, they go through financial, just a huge financial. Just tear down over their lives. In the 2008, 2009 housing crisis. You have this conversation with your son's friend who's also a Hindu,

Timmy Gibson [01:04:30] and

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:04:30] you're like, wow, how can that person possibly be going to hell? Then you. So it sounds to me, and this is, this is where I want to get here. Tell me if I'm right. It sounds to me that before the intellectual exercise of questioning the theological principles, you're having, or at least within the same time frame, you're having experiences with people, real life, real world experiences that are not matching up with what you understand your theology to be. Is that accurate?

Timmy Gibson [01:04:58] That's exactly accurate. Yep.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:05:00] Yeah. And so you have these relational dynamics that are happening. They're not matching with reality as far as you see it. Like, if anyone deserves to have God come in and intervene on their behalf, it's going to be this family that does everything right in the church. I mean, if there is any family that deserves it, it's them. And instead they're going through the challenges. Let me ask you this. Were there, what were the, in that, in that cognitive dissonance that you were experiencing? What were the explanations you were trying to tell yourself about why that family was going through, what it was going through?

Timmy Gibson [01:05:31] Yeah, Job. The book of Job became very real. And if you don't know the book of Job, I know you do, Todd, but people out there, the book of Job is, is basically a righteous man where Satan and God come up with this wager and God says, you know, to, to Satan, hey, have you seen my servant Job? You know, he's righteous in all of his ways and he's, you know, blessed and all that. And you can try him, you can't kill him, but you can do all these nasty things, take everything away from him, and he won't deny me. Right. And that was the story that, that I, I Remember I did a series on it after 2008.

Timmy Gibson [01:06:11] I remember doing a series on the book of Job. Just saying that, you know, that this is actually a sign of how righteous you are, that God loves you so much, you're such a great and wonderful person that it's not the, it's, it's that you love God so much that you're being tried, you're being tempted, you're being attacked by the devil.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:06:40] Yeah. That's how I

Timmy Gibson [01:06:41] reconciled it.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:06:42] Yeah. I used to think, I used to say that from the pulpit too. I would go, you know, if, if God is testing you, it's because you, you. He knows you're worthy of such a test. And I remember jokingly saying, you know, and I would say, don't some of you feel like you're righteous enough already? Like you. There's no need. God, just in case. I don't, I don't need any more wisdom or insight or understanding or depth of knowledge. I'm great.

Timmy Gibson [01:07:06] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:07:06] Anyway, so

Timmy Gibson [01:07:08] I wish God could test us through blessing. Yes. Wouldn't

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:07:12] that be a

Timmy Gibson [01:07:12] deal?

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:07:14] It sounds like our sermons were similar. There was a moment where it was before you were, you were questioning whether Christianity as a whole theological framework, before you started questioning it, Christianity. There was something that changed the way you viewed homosexuality, gay people, the gay community. And I think you did a sermon on that at some point. But what. Yes. What was the backdrop to that? Because I thought that was very, very interesting in the way that, that again, another relational dynamic that starts to cause you to question the framework that you've believed in for so long.

Timmy Gibson [01:07:50] Yeah. Yeah. I had grown up with several friends who were gay and had been gay all their lives. And these were church people. Right. These are people that I knew in church that were, were gay and not out. Obviously they had to hide and lie and, you know, keep it on the down low. Or, or they were tormented, especially one of my friends, my dear friends, that just felt absolutely tormented. Their, their parents actually sent them to the Exodus program, which was a program that's been outlawed. But, you know, it's, it's a program to, you know, pray the gay away, to counsel the gay away and, you know, the being gays a choice and all that.

Timmy Gibson [01:08:25] Well, you know, it's not, you know, you're, you are born that way. And I even say this, even if you choose to be that way, it doesn't, it's fine. So if you want to be gay, be gay. If, if you're, it just doesn't matter. None of that stuff is a sin or not sin is where I'm at now in my life. But at the time, right, I, I, I just couldn't again, reconcile. It's, it's like being born without an arm, and then it's a sin to not have an arm. It's like, it. Again, I couldn't reconcile some of my dear good friends who were, you know, gifted and talented and sweet and had a heart for God and all these things.

Timmy Gibson [01:09:02] And, and they're just eternally doomed because they're gay. And, and then you're gonna be born gay but then told not to be gay. That's like being born heterosexual. But then saying you can't be heterosexual, it's like, it just wasn't computing in my mind. And so that was. And especially as a pastor, I'm, I'm seeing, you know, people come to the church who are gay and in gay relationships. And, and I remember just honestly feeling like a bad person. I remember feeling like a bad person because I'm like, here are this. Gay couples coming to my church. And, and I know what I think privately, which is, it's okay to be born gay as long as you don't do anything gay, which is just ridiculous.

Timmy Gibson [01:09:46] And, but I remember the, the disconnect in myself. Like, I, I would say that's what I believe, but something in me was just screaming of, this is bigoted to me. You're. You're bigoted. You're. This isn't right. You know, I just really struggle with that. And so I, I started down the, you know, I'm a theology guy, right? So I started going, you know what? I have always thought this. I wonder if there are books out there that could help me look at this theological, theologically different. Is there another way to look at this? And there is, right? And again, you know, to me, all of it's complete horse poop anyway now.

Timmy Gibson [01:10:27] But at the time, so I'm reading that, oh, this theologically, you could look at this different. And so then I started accepting the, the gay lifestyle even. And I, and then, but then I would say, as long as you live the gay lifestyle like you live a heterosexual lifestyle. And I was still no premarital intimacy, right? So if, if you're gay, that's fine. Just don't engage in any kind of activity until you are committed to each other through marriage. And once it's legal to be married in our state, you should get married so that you can do this, right? So to me, it's, it's all I'M still trying to frame everything in this biblical worldview. Frame.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:11:05] Oh yeah.

Timmy Gibson [01:11:05] And I did a big sermon called God Loves Gays. And it didn't split my church by any means, but it definitely. I lost a lot of the fundamental literalist people. They were just like, some people just didn't even come to the sermon.

Timmy Gibson [01:11:20] They just, they just. The title alone, they were just like, no, we can't go there. And that was really the beginning of the, the deconstruction process that I finally was like, you know what? I support gay marriage. I do not think it's a sin anymore. And it got me in trouble with, with Rhema, the group that I was a part of that had my ordination at the time.

Timmy Gibson [01:11:46] And then from there, you know, more of my story. I, I became more and more theologically liberal and was doing things like beer in the Bible, you know, sure, Christians and cigars. And you know, I'm like, I'm starting to really, you know, of course I'm tattooed, so I, I'm already pushing, pushing the envelope there. But I kept getting more tattoos while I was a pastor.

Timmy Gibson [01:12:10] So then I was this edgy, you know, this edgy, cool, progressive, cool pastor. And then like I said, you know, just. I kept sliding and sliding away, you know.

Drifting Toward Theological Liberalism

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:12:20] So at all that, during that entire time, are you trying to leave Christianity at these, in these moments, are you trying to save a version? It sounds like it's. You're trying to find a more liberal theological perspective on it, right?

Timmy Gibson [01:12:31] I'm trying to, yeah. Man, what a. This is a great interview, Todd. It's because you and I are so. Have such a similar story. You know, I was trying to save it because there was never a time, even when I became an atheist, seconds before that actually happened. There was never a time that I thought that I would not believe and be a Christian. Like it was the way. It was the truth, it was the life. We were just misunderstanding Jesus. We were just misreading the Bible, you know, and, and in fact, Todd, here's how egotistical and probably somewhat narcissistic I was at this time and maybe still am in certain ways.

Timmy Gibson [01:13:15] But I remember thinking that I would potentially start a new religion. I really, I've never talked about this publicly, but there were. I looked it up, I looked it up online how to start a religion because I thought that I was still called by God that Jesus put me here for a reason. And I still thought that I, I literally thought that I was guy that was gonna start an all new religion of the Future of a version of Christianity that would be what would bring us to the rapture. Like, I really, really. Again, I've never said this publicly, but cat's out of the bag now. I thought I was gonna be the shiznit with that. Like, I'm gonna.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:14:03] Well, we're gonna hang out, now that you've mentioned it. We're gonna. We're gonna talk about it. So this is great. This is. And the reason I want to, like, this is so fascina. Some of those similar experiences in my own life. And it wasn't about starting a new religion. It was getting back to the true Jesus.

Timmy Gibson [01:14:18] Yes,

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:14:19] right. Because. Because Clearly I, after 2000 years of Christian history, will be the only one out of billions of people to have finally, finally figured it out, you know, come back to the pure church. It's. It's quite remarkable looking back on it, but. So you're looking at starting a new religion. And why. Why are you. What. What's going on in Timmy's mind in the midst of this deconstruction, in this critical phase that causes you to spend the time there and how long did you spend in that. In that chapter?

Timmy Gibson [01:14:48] Yeah, I was still convinced that the world needed Jesus. I believe that. That, you know, Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. So. So at that time, even though my peripheral theological, you know, whether no Noah actually built an ark or, you know, or Jonah was swallowed by a big fish, or whether it was okay to drink Al or all these, what, okay to be gay or not, all those peripheral things were just peripheral things. I still held on to the core of Jesus is the way, and what this world needs is Jesus.

Timmy Gibson [01:15:27] And I was still going to be the one that was going to bring this world to Jesus, to the, to the real Jesus. Like you said, out of. Out of all billions of people or millions and millions of Christians, I had it figured out. And then, you know, so, yeah, that's, that's why. I mean, that I. I still had that core belief that Jesus could make the difference in someone's life. Though even that was beginning to make to. To falter in my mind because I'd saw people that were Hindu that seemed to. That was the answer for their great life. You know, Buddhism was the answer for someone else's life.

Timmy Gibson [01:16:07] That. That someone was addicted to drugs and they got off through Buddhism. You know, I thought only Jesus delivered people from addiction. And then, then I started finding out people that weren't religious at all. Were getting freed from addiction and things were going on in people's lives that didn't center around Jesus. So that was also. Again, this is layer upon layer upon layer. I'm thinking Jesus is going to make the difference. Jesus is the only thing that can make the difference.

Timmy Gibson [01:16:36] But out in everyday life, that's not what's going on. I'm seeing people that get saved get Jesus in their heart and they're still addicted and they still wind up getting divorced or, or whatever, you know. In other words, it's not like Christians are. They're experiencing the same exact things that everybody else is experiencing.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:16:58] The same success and failure rates in every subject.

Timmy Gibson [01:17:00] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's a

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:17:01] good way to be remarkable. Yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's very powerful. I'm just, I'm. Right. I'm reliving my own experience. I'm listening you. Because it's quite, it's just quite astonishing how, how these things are all in front of our faces, Timmy. And we just, we're either, I wouldn't say willfully blind, but at what, at some point. And it sounds like it happened with you, these life experiences. Back to this whole idea. The relational connections, the, the, the crisis and the struggles that people are going through that shouldn't be going through. Those things that they're Christians and they have enough faith. The health and wealth gospel.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:17:33] You, you should be healed and you should be prosperous and they're not. And they're the people that you would expect to be. So. And then you find yourself kind of whittling down all of the Bible. So, okay, maybe the Genesis story is not true. Maybe Jonah didn't get swallowed by a fish. Maybe there was no Noah's ark. But Jesus, right? And then, and then you, it sounds like you became what some term is a red letter Christian. Where,

Timmy Gibson [01:17:58] yes,

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:17:58] it's just the words and the actions of Jesus. Right. Forget Paul, forget the Old Testament, it's just Jesus. Would that be accurate?

Timmy Gibson [01:18:04] It. Yes. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:18:07] And then the problem, though, lies in the fact that you're now, now you're a red letter Christian. You're just listening to the words and the actions of Jesus and you're still finding discrepancies in the world. So even the more you whittle down and the more you feel, okay, I'm safe in this bubble, the life circumstances begin to just poke holes in that bubble. Would that, would that be a good way of

Timmy Gibson [01:18:27] looking

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:18:28] at it? Because it certainly was for me. I'm just I'm trying to find familiarity here with you. I

Timmy Gibson [01:18:31] think,

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:18:32] I think it's. No, that's

Timmy Gibson [01:18:33] exactly true. I, I thought that, that, that I would be safe in there with just Jesus. Like surely this is where this is. Like I'm whittling all this down, all this other stuff doesn't matter. But Jesus is the critical piece here, and then that starts to, to fall apart. So

Questioning Hell and the Foundations of Faith

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:18:52] tell me, at some point, is it the same time that you had this conversation with the. The guy's name was Carlton

Timmy Gibson [01:18:58] Pearson?

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:18:59] Carlton Pearson, Yeah. You were talking about hell.

Timmy Gibson [01:19:01] Yep.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:19:02] You guys had a friendship. Tell me a bit about that. Because I think one of the biggest things that fell for me was the concept of hell. So I'm curious to see what happened with you.

Timmy Gibson [01:19:10] Yeah. So, yeah, Carlton Pearson was a dear friend of mine. And, and he's. For those that don't know. He was an, A very famous evangelical Pentecostal preacher that had a church called Higher Dimensions in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is where rhema is. And he went through a theological change and no longer believed in hell and evangelical faith. He started to change and ended up losing his church. You know, the church just basically just went away because his. What they called heretical teaching. Well, because we were friends. You know, I was talking to him a lot during that time and I was already on my own journey outside of his.

Timmy Gibson [01:19:46] His journey. And I remember talking with him and having lunch with him and, and we were just talking deep this again, I was still Christian. Ish. And he was talking theologically just about the, the misconcept of hell within the evangelical church. And as we were talking, I was like, yeah, no, that. It just doesn't make sense. How could an all loving, caring father, God send you to hell just because of you're a part of another religion, which you're. The religion that you are is geographically determined. You know, if you're in Pakistan, you're Muslim. If you're in India, you're Hindu. I mean, this, it's like if you're in Thailand, you're Buddhist.

Timmy Gibson [01:20:27] This, if you're in Arkansas, you Christian. And once I started understanding some of these things, it made sense. And I just could not reconcile the whole idea of hell, especially this. You'll love this example. And I'm sure you've thought of this before.

Timmy Gibson [01:20:43] Ted Bundy, serial killer, deplorable person. Apparently it was rumored that he gave his heart to Jesus. He accepted Jesus into his heart before he died. And I remember thinking to myself, you mean to tell me that Ted Bundy After a despicable, terrible, terrible, terrible life, he accepts Jesus, therefore, he'll be in heaven. And someone like Anne Frank or my sweet Hindu neighbors who were. I don't think they even probably thought bad thoughts. They were just such precious people. I knew they were better people than me, right? They're going to be in hell and Ted Bundy's in heaven. I remember. I remember just literally going, no, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

Timmy Gibson [01:21:35] And if that is the way that is, I. That's wrong. That's immoral. God's wrong. I mean, I'm still believing in God, right? And so now I'm having an issue with. With God because I'm like, this is insane. Like, literally, this makes no sense.

Timmy Gibson [01:21:52] In fact, I think this would make you an immoral God. This makes no sense at all. I could not. I could not reconcile. That's in the top three for me. Suffering, the suffering evil problem, and then the heaven and hell problem and the hiddenness problem. Those are probably like my top three. And that one right there, that is what did it. I could not for the life of me understand how God would send you. You live, live 50, 60, 70, 80 years here on Earth.

Timmy Gibson [01:22:22] And because of not accepting Jesus, your punishment is eternity forever and ever and ever and ever and ever to be tormented. That doesn't even seem justified. It's like, okay, fine, you go to hell for, you know, a couple years and. Or what? Like. But forever.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:22:40] Yeah,

Timmy Gibson [01:22:41] it just started, you know, I don't know for you, Todd, but. But that just fell apart and fell apart hard. And to me, I never again struggled. What if Hell Israel, once I dropped it, I dropped that thing like a hot potato. And to me, literally, when people to this day try to threaten me, Christians try to threaten me with hell, I say, literally, it is like you are threatening me with Santa's naughty and nice list. I'm sorry. There is zero attachment with the concept of hell. I would claim to say that I know hell doesn't exist, and if it does exist, I know that I'm not the kind of person that would go there. And that's not because of pride. That's because, you know, like, that would be a place for, like, Hitler. Right? Like, come on, that's ridiculous. Yeah, this is an absolutely insane teaching.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:23:36] No, no, I. I went through a similar process of really looking for me, it was more of a scholarly thing where I went, like, I looked at scholarly research on the development of hell throughout the Old New Testament, you know, eventually. I've done some videos recently on it, but it was just understanding that the theological development of the concept itself, you know, this idea that, that the Bible is univocal, it speaks with one voice from Genesis to Revelation is just not true.

Timmy Gibson [01:23:59] Right.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:23:59] And once I started to realize that, and hell was one of the first times where I watched centuries long traditions of a specific concept, from Sheol to this concept of an afterlife, to Paul and Jesus teachings which were very different on the concept of hell and just going, okay, all right, this doesn't make any sense. And in addition to the fact that it seemed morally reprehensible to punish someone eternally for finite wrongdoings. Right. So it became absurd quickly. You know what was interesting about that? I wonder if this was true with you. It sounds like it wasn't. For me, even though I intellectually no longer believed in hell, when I would talk about it for some time, it would still cause me to be stressed in my body.

Timmy Gibson [01:24:38] Yeah, like

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:24:38] I would. Like what? Well, what if I'm wrong? Yeah, like it would just, it would really stress me out. But then I woke up one day, this was probably in the last year, year and a half where I'm like, yeah, I just don't. It's just not there. Just not.

Timmy Gibson [01:24:48] Yeah, yeah, it dropped pretty quick for me. For whatever reason. You know, other things I struggled with. You know, there was other things that I was struggling with longer. But that one, once I saw the absurdity, the ridiculousness of it, I mean, it just dropped so quick and I never turned back. Which I can tell you what, what I love about your content is, is you're definitely more of an intellectual and, and theologically you have more depth in your theology, which I think is obviously your training, your background, which is why I appreciate your content because we're so similar in so many different ways. But I, I find you to be more of what I would.

Timmy Gibson [01:25:30] An intellectual, theological, you know, purveyor of these things where I'm, you know, the Pentecostal. Right. I'm feeling it, I'm sharing it, I'm saying these things. And this is ridiculous. This is obviously, you know, you know, where you're like, okay, well, I just love that. I really love that.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:25:48] No, I appreciate you saying that. You know, it's funny you said that we come from kind of different backgrounds and different perspectives on theology. You and I read a book that I found out you read that actually affected your, your deconstruction process. It didn't affect my deconstruction because I had already gone through it in large part, but Sapiens.

Timmy Gibson [01:26:05] Oh, that, that was that. That one just tipped me right over.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:26:09] Yeah, so let's hang out with that because I think that book is just awesome. Like, is that how you say it? So, yeah, I think he's okay. So I've read all of his books. Sapiens was just one of those developmental, you know, the, the construct of humanity and civil. Just like every page was just rich. Right. So. So you. So tell us about this. So I. And I don't know the whole story. So you read Sapiens at some point it affects your, your view, I think, on evolution. Is that right?

Books and Ideas That Accelerated Deconstruction

Timmy Gibson [01:26:39] Oh, yeah, no, thanks for bringing this up. I have the book. Actually. The book is holding up my computer, which is making this eye level for me.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:26:46] So

Timmy Gibson [01:26:47] I'm looking at it right here. This book rocked my world because I didn't know about Neanderthals. I didn't know, you know, I was a creationist. So the earliest humans were Adam and Eve and the people of the Bible, you know, so when I started reading Sapiens, you talk about a book that, where you read a paragraph and you have to sit and think about it for like. That's

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:27:14] right.

Timmy Gibson [01:27:15] It was such a deep, profound book for me. And it took me a long time to read it. It. Because it was like I was reading another world, yet it was the world that I lived in that I was not ever made aware of. You know, I knew the Bible, you know, chapter, you know, Genesis to Revelation. Man, I've read the Bible multiple times through, have memorized so much of the Bible, a lot of it's fading now, but it's, it's like that was the book that I had read and read and read and studied and studied and studied. And I'm sure like you, there's not.

Timmy Gibson [01:27:52] You couldn't bring up much in the Bible that I wouldn't know what you're roughly talking about. You know, it's just like I know the Bible and when I read Sapiens and the human history, it just was challenging everything that I thought was true. So it's not that long ago that I realized Adam and Eve because even when I was leaving Christianity, I was still like, well, there's a divine creator, God created it.

Timmy Gibson [01:28:23] So, you know, it's not that long ago that I would have said, I don't know if I'm exactly a Bible creationist, but I know God did it, you know, and so now I'm reading this and it's blowing my mind, understanding evolution and understanding that the tree of evolution. And. And so all those questions that that people that I used to say from the pulpit, you know, well, if we, if we come from monkeys, why are they still monkeys?

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:28:50] Oh, yeah.

Timmy Gibson [01:28:51] You know, now I realize that's such a. Just an. And I say ignorant, not in a derogatory way, but that's just an ignorant understanding of evolution. Because we don't. That's not, that's not how it works. We didn't evolve from monkeys. Was it 7 million years ago? We have a common ancestor with a, With a monkey. But, you know, it's just as I started to learn and understand human history, and here's the part that really got me. I'm curious what you think the myth, the. The shared myth, the importance of stories

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:29:24] and

Timmy Gibson [01:29:25] the importance of that, it just started clicking for me. This is, this is actually sapiens. Thank you, Yuval Noah Harari. This is what actually shifted me to atheist, is when I started reading this. It. That's when I realized, oh, we created God.

Timmy Gibson [01:29:48] This makes so much sense. It's like everything that I couldn't understand or couldn't reconcile as a Christian or even a spiritual person, all of us. Not that I understand everything now. That's not. It's not. But all of a sudden, everything that I could not understand or could not reconcile will.

Timmy Gibson [01:30:09] It just made sense. It's like, oh, well, that's why evil happens in the world. It's just like, because there is no one watching over it, making it happen or not making it happen. This is just. This is just life. This is just life. This is fascinating. And that's why. Oh, my goodness. This is why people over here are Hindu and people over here are this. And people over here are this. Just it. It literally, this book is the most profound book that I've ever read as of yet. And I've read a lot of great books. This book upturned, shifted around, reorganized my entire life and made my life make sense.

Timmy Gibson [01:30:54] Where's meaning come from? From within. What stories do I tell myself? They matter, right? The truth is what matters. The truth really will set you free. People say, well, yeah, as an atheist, you're still. You're biased. Yes. And I'm sure there's things that I believe that are wrong. I'm sure I'm human. But at least now I can say that my beliefs are based upon. Not a. Just a faith bias. My beliefs are based upon evidence.

Timmy Gibson [01:31:23] You know, I believe things because there's evidence to support what I believe. And if that evidence change changes, I will change what I think and that I can't. I Don't know what to say about that except I feel so free in that, you know, it. Did this happen or did this what? Well, what's the evidence say? You know, if all the evidence is leaning this way, it doesn't matter what I feel in my heart, what I believe in my head, or what I hope is true, or what my group thinks is true. I don't care. I don't care what the group thinks. What, what is the overarching evidence? You know, what do the experts say? What does that make sense?

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:32:07] Yeah, absolutely. No, I relate completely to it. I think, I think it's interesting at some point. So you go through all these changes and all these challenges. Take me back to. Because I, I know the story a little bit about the, the when you left church work.

Timmy Gibson [01:32:22] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:32:23] And so all these things are happening. Your theology shifting at some point. I remember in your story, your theology's changed so much because of all these things we've talked about today that you're standing up every Sunday, you're still preaching and you're trying to figure out what you can still honestly preach from the stage, right from the pulpit. What was that period like leading a church and going through all these questionings, questioning all these things, and yet having to be certain every Sunday, what was that like? Like,

Timmy Gibson [01:32:51] you know, that was a really difficult time because everything about my life was being turned upside down. You know, again, Christianity, those that know, know this, it is everything. It's not just a thing. It's. It's everything to you. And not to mention for me, it was my career, it was my livelihood, it's what paid the mortgage, paid the rent, bought me food. I mean, it's what made everything happen.

Timmy Gibson [01:33:22] So as that's all changing and then add on top of that, my world view is changing completely and utterly. And, and it's midlife crisis era for me. You know, I'm in that 48, 49, 50 year mark. And so odd that it's coming up all at this time as well, as well as becoming an empty nester. You know, both the kids had grown up and I'm like, who am I? What do I believe? What's true, what's not true? I'm finding less and less to be able to teach.

Timmy Gibson [01:34:00] And I've always thought I was authentic and I always like, had a desire to be authentic, which, that's another story of, you know, really wanting to be authentic. But there's a certain, it was like, it was like a piece of me. I'm sure you can relate There was like, a piece of me that was extremely authentic, and then there was another piece that, like, I couldn't tap into that. Like, I can't be entirely honest about that because that would not be good. So we're gonna be as authentic as we possibly can right here. And then I'm going to keep this little sub chapter of whatever over here.

Timmy Gibson [01:34:34] So. But in that authentic piece, I, I remember finally telling the, the church, I said, you know, I don't believe in this anymore. Like, this. I, I don't believe in hell. I, I, I'm dumped. I don't think Jesus is the way. I think I did a sermon that, that Jesus isn't the way, the only way.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:34:58] Well, you had a meeting, right, with your elders and, and your congregation. Like you had a meeting to tell them this. Is that right? Yes, yes, let's go into that, because I found that, that very interesting.

Timmy Gibson [01:35:07] Yeah, yeah. And they, you know, I think they knew, right? They could, they could see there were a lot of changes. A lot my sermons were changing. Things were just getting so different because I was, I wanted to be true. And so I wasn't going to continue to say things that I used to believe were true and that I now don't believe is true. Right. That, that I could not do that anymore. I was like, I'm gonna be 100 authentic and honest, no secrets as it relates to all this theology and what I'm believing and seen.

Timmy Gibson [01:35:37] So, yeah, I just called a meeting with the core people and just said, I don't believe this. I'm not a Christian. And so, you know, I don't think this is right that I, that I keep doing this like this. And, and we struggled along, we try. I, I changed it from church to what the name of the church was Mercy Church at the time. I changed it to Mercy Gathering. Wait, it was just a spiritual gathering? No, I took all the theological stuff. I took all of that out of there. And in the doctrinal statement, I just basically was like, you know, be a good person, be thoughtful, serve the divine creator.

Timmy Gibson [01:36:11] You know, like, it was so vague that anybody and everybody could fit in there. And I think I even mentioned in there that we accept everybody of any faith, any background or no faith. No. You know, it was like we love everybody and.

Timmy Gibson [01:36:27] But then it just, yeah, it got down to the point. I think we had like 50 people. And, you know, anybody that knows anything about ministry, when you have 50 people, you know, it, it, it's hard to make any kind of ends meet with that. It's hard to pay any kind of a, a rent at a building and, and, and try to make any kind of a salary possible or anything. And, and so at that point I was like, I got to figure out something else for my life. And luckily I was a person of, I was an entrepreneur and I had side hustles and other things that I could do that I just kind of slid into as well as I drove Uber.

Timmy Gibson [01:37:00] I drove Uber for a year. Once I shut down the church, I started driving Uber and was doing my weddings and things on the side until, you know, I grew the wedding business up to what it is today. So

The Church's Final Days and Affirming LGBTQ Members

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:37:12] let me ask you a question, Timmy. If you, if you would have, or could you have saved the church financially if you'd been willing to pretend.

Timmy Gibson [01:37:21] Yes. Yeah. And in fact, and, and you know, I believe this to be true because I, I had several of my elders and some of what, what, what we called the overseer. How I structured the church was how a lot of evangelicals churches structure it, which is, I was in charge, you know, I, I decided everything for the church. But I have, I had counselors and wise advisors around me. So I had what was called an advisory team. And these were pastors of other churches who are still pastoring to this day. And each of those friends of mine are each pastoring a mega church to this day.

Timmy Gibson [01:37:56] And really only one of them talks to me much anymore anyway, so they all, in agreement, were seeing what was going on with me, and they were friends of mine. So, you know, I was talking to them about it. Each of them sat with me and said, timmy, fine, you want to support gays, that's fine. Fine that you, okay, you're not believing in hell, whatever.

Timmy Gibson [01:38:18] Just don't make that stuff public. Just stick with the message. The, the churches that make the most money and are more successful and, and right now are the evangelical church. And they did, it was basically a prescription. They didn't really go into what they believe. They were just counseling me. So I can't say if they're doing that or not. I'm not sure about that. They were just telling me their counsel to me was, was fine, support the gays, just don't talk about it and, and stay on the straight and narrow. And I remember telling them, I said, I would rather have no church and be honest than a big church and be trapped in living a lie.

Timmy Gibson [01:39:02] I said, I just, I can't do that. I, I just couldn't. And so, yeah, Todd, I, I, I mean, the thought entered my mind you know, there was a thought in my mind of, could I just, just, just fake all this? Have a secret. Totally. A secret belief system, a secret life, and just keep preaching this and keep growing the church. Like I said, we were up and to the right And I hit 300 and it was. We were going to go to the moon, really. And I say to the moon. I don't know what that meant exactly, but I just, you know, we were up and to the right, and it was my theological shift that started the trinkle.

Timmy Gibson [01:39:36] The trinkle down. I think had I just buttoned down and just whatever, I, I'm, you know, I'm pretty certain we would have hit over a thousand. We were in a growing community. We were super popular as a church.

Timmy Gibson [01:39:52] People thought I, you know, was unique enough. Just the way I look with the tattoos and the progressive pieces, you know, some of the progressive things I think I could have kept. But just. If I'd have kept my theological, if I'd have stayed on track, according to my pastor friends, I could have really built a mega church. And I just couldn't do it. I couldn't do it and, and live with myself. You know what I mean? I just couldn't.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:40:17] Yeah, I understand. So let's, let's, let's take, let's go to that last Sunday. You know, this is a church. This is a church you started in your living room.

Timmy Gibson [01:40:26] You

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:40:26] know, you've watched it grow to hundreds of people. You're in that trajectory you talked about. Now you're standing there. I just, I want to get to that point. You're standing there with, I don't know, what, 30, 40, 50 people left telling them that you don't believe this anymore. What do you remember about that last, that last Sunday? What, you know, what did you say? Did anybody cry? Did you cry? Did you feel like. Did you feel like this was a failure on your part? I really would love to know what's inside your head at this point.

Timmy Gibson [01:40:51] Yes, yes. It was probably not like this, but ish, you know, you're, you're. It's like a failure of a business or losing of a child kind of a vibe of. This is something I birthed out of a vision that I thought was from God.

Timmy Gibson [01:41:09] And so there was this. That last Sunday. You know, it's funny, I was so sad. Like, there was a deep, profound sadness on, on one hand, and coupled with this, I don't know if we can understand, if people can understand this, but coupled with all of this grief and this sadness was coupled with so much joy and freedom and excitement. It was the weirdest.

Timmy Gibson [01:41:44] It was so weird to feel the saddest almost that I've ever felt in my life and the most excited that I've ever felt in my life. And. And I remember walking out, and by this time, we were meeting in a coffee shop. There was a coffee shop in the town where we started the church, in the same town where it had grown to 600 or 300. You know, we're in this little coffee shop. We've got about, you know, 40 people there. 40 to 50 people just crammed out in this little coffee shop. Everything is acoustic. You know, I sat on a stool and just talked, and.

Timmy Gibson [01:42:20] Totally different than the big church that I had pastored at one point. So a lot of the core people had come, and even some people that had left came back to this final service just to kind of, hey, we were here to start with you. We want to be here to end it with you.

Timmy Gibson [01:42:34] And it was just. Yeah, it was. It was just sad. And people had, you know, their own. I think. You know, here's what I think we underestimate. When I was a pastor, people are struggling. People have questions. You know, it's like that I wasn't the only one struggling. I wasn't the only one with all these deep, profound questions. You know, a lot of people did, too, and. And some people just went to church because it was just what you did, that they didn't really struggle with anything because they really didn't believe in it, most of it, anyway, per se. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but, you know, I realized that in my church, you know, I would hope, at least as the pastor, you know, I was like.

Timmy Gibson [01:43:11] Like the most committed. Like, this was serious to me. I think there was a lot of people that just came to our church for the free coffee, the free fun preacher guy up there and the great music, and. And the single people came because we were kind of a hot spot for a lot of single people. So, you know, guys were coming to meet girls, girls were coming to meet guys, you know, so. And other people are coming for the networking, right? So people are coming to church for all kinds of reasons. That last service, you know, I think it was mostly the people that really were there in the beginning also who realized this was an end of something, that at one point was a special thing to them and their family and.

Timmy Gibson [01:43:45] And as well as me. And I think I kind of kept a distance. I didn't have a lot of quote, unquote, close friends within the church. You know, I was, I always believed that familiarity breeds contempt back in those days. And so I kind of tried to keep my distance. You know, I was the pastor, these were the congregation members, and so, so I was always in a pastoral role, you know, but there, there was a few people that crossed over into that friendship role, and a lot of them came, you know, just to, to kind of hug my neck and, and be there and, and kind of see me off and, you know, curious about what I was going to do next to my life.

Timmy Gibson [01:44:21] And yeah, it was, it was a weird, you know, reliving it in my mind. I, I, it, yeah, just the saddle and, and the most exciting time mixed.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:44:32] Yeah, thanks for sharing that. So what happens Monday morning after that last Sunday? You know, you know, who are you now when you're not Pastor Tim anymore? Because this is the first time this has happened, right?

Waking Up Without a Religious Identity

Timmy Gibson [01:44:46] Yeah. Yeah. That was a very interesting day to, to wake up on that Monday morning and discover who, who, who is Timmy? Like, who am I? I was always so known as a, as a pastor. And frankly, I had always loved being a pastor. There was a lot of reverence there. I'm in the Midwest, I'm in the Bible Belt, and so being a pastor was, was a position of importance. You know, it was literally something that, that I was proud to be and looked at and respected in a way that I appreciated and, and loved and liked. I still, to this day, in fact, I was just out the other day in the city and someone at a restaurant came over and said, pastor Timmy. And I was like, whoa, what is happening?

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:45:41] Hadn't heard that in a while. Sure.

Timmy Gibson [01:45:42] Yeah. I was like, whoa. So, yeah, and, and, you know, of course, now it's, it's whatever, it, I don't care. It's, you know, I told this person what was going on, but definitely not a, it's not a thing of pride anymore. But, yeah, it was. I just, I was like, man, I gotta start reading. I was thinking about, do I go back to school? It was just. I literally, Literally, I look at my life before as not just another chapter, really. Even though I guess my whole. My life is a book, right? But for me, it's more. It's another book. For me, that book shut down and has been shelved and the new book started, Chapter one. And here we go. And so,

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:46:34] yeah, this is a new volume.

Timmy Gibson [01:46:36] Yeah, this is a whole new experience because I knew that I had a biblical worldview, and it was just ingrained in Me. And you'll find this interesting, Todd, I wonder. I'm curious if you experience this. And I'll get back to the. That Monday morning waking up. But there were things that I would feel that were contrary to what. What I knew. For example, I started watching Christopher Hitchens debates and everybody, you name all the. You know, I started this, started my journey. Right, Right. Because at the time I was still a creationist. You know, I was still. There was a lot of things I didn't believe in evolution.

Timmy Gibson [01:47:16] There was still a lot of things that I was believing, though I was not a Christian. Right. And. And was definitely. I wouldn't say I was an atheist yet, but I was like, I'm definitely not a Christian. I don't even know if there's a God, you know, I don't know, whatever.

Timmy Gibson [01:47:30] So I'm thinking to myself, what. What do I believe? And so I'm watching this debate and the Christian words feel right in my body and they make sense to me yet cognitively. And I know it's wrong for. Okay, here's a. Another way to explain it. I know it's okay to drink alcohol, but I always feel guilty after drinking alcohol. Does that make sense? Sense.

Timmy Gibson [01:48:05] So it. That's going on in my life in every area. And I, I became single. So I'm single at the time as well. And I'm still got some of that Christian stuff on me when it comes to premarital intimacy and different things. But I'm like, wait, you. As long as you're honest and you're moral and, and you know, just all of a sudden I'm giving myself permission to, like, it's okay to have a glass of wine. To me, like, it's okay. It's okay to tell a dirty joke, you know, or it's okay. Like it's. And this might sound so this is just how naive and how, how innocent I.

Timmy Gibson [01:48:52] I was in so many ways. It was like. It was like the Truman show when Truman gets to the end of the stage of the dome and he's like, opens it up and there's like this whole world. It's like that. It was like I. Now I'm no longer in the Village in that movie, the Village, you know, it's like I've escaped this confound, this cult of. Of way of thinking, and I'm now given permission to. To read books and to think different thoughts and to believe different things and to experience life differently and to withhold the judgment, withhold the shame. Does that make sense? And

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:49:39] Absolutely

Timmy Gibson [01:49:40] was just, huh. I mean, I can't even tell you a piece that passes all understanding entered into my life. This freedom to be me. I felt, I, I, it's, it's, it's unimaginable. Honestly, it's like the most unbelievable feeling to feel to truly it was, I was born again, but it really was a born again type of experience to be born again into what I would call reality. Like I'm thrust into reality. I don't need to feel guilt and shame for my thoughts.

Timmy Gibson [01:50:25] I, I am free to, to be a just a good human for good human sakes. And I don't need to fear this dude in the sky that, you know, whatever. That was so freeing. And it's been such a wonderful, wonderful, freeing journey to be free. And that started on that Monday. That Monday was just like, man, what am I going to do with my life? What, what's going to happen? What are we doing? Where are we going? You know what I mean?

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:50:54] I relate, I relate to such a deep, at a very deep level about the whole this, this thing you're expressing about just that level of freedom and that, you know, you're a better person now that you're not a Christian and you, you have more authentic and meaningful and deep relationships now that you're not a Christian.

Timmy Gibson [01:51:10] That

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:51:10] may not be the case for everyone. Right? It may not. It certainly was for me as well. So when you say those things, I relate. So you mentioned just a minute ago being single, newly single, so obviously went through a divorce, as I understand it. Was that connected to your deconstruction or was it two separate issues altogether?

Life After Ministry: Divorce, Freedom, and Rebuilding

Timmy Gibson [01:51:29] I think that was, there was some overlay, you know, because part of who I was as an evangelical Christian with, you know, the roles of men and women, you know, the, the man is the head, not the tail, and above, only, not beneath. And you know, some of the dynamic structures that was baked into both of our belief systems once religion left because my ex also deconstructed, we found that there was no compatibility there now that there we weren't just staying together because it's right to stay together and you shouldn't get divorced. I think we both, you know, we didn't even hire a lawyer. We just sat at the kitchen table and decided and, and of course there's a story there, right?

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:52:18] Sure.

Timmy Gibson [01:52:20] But it was just like, no, this is, this isn't worth trying to save. We should go our own ways. And yeah, you know, in fact, we still went on vacation together last year with my wife and the Kids and my ex and you know, you know, so things can, it can be right to get divorced again. That's, I would have never said that ever before.

Timmy Gibson [01:52:45] And sometimes the right thing to do is to get divorced. And that was true of us. You know, the only compatibility that we had is that we were evangelicals. But once that piece left, we realized that we were two completely different people wanting completely different things and, and just not a good fit. And, and even the kids, you know, the kids saw that they were adults at the time. And so, yeah, I went through a divorce in 2019. And then for the first time in my life, Todd, I moved into an apartment by myself. I had never lived by myself in my life. Went from my parents house to a dorm room to another dorm room to an apartment with a roommate, to another apartment with a roommate to marriage, obviously a roommate to living with that, that partner for 25 years and then beginning the deconstruction process.

Timmy Gibson [01:53:44] Both of us were deconstructing and then realizing we, again, there's some shenanigans on my end there. And then realizing this should have never, you know, we're not compatible. So we end it amicably and go our separate ways. And so I'm also going through my further deconstruction process. So I think also the saddest I ever felt and the happiest I ever was was also coupled with that. I had never been alone, I had never made my own thoughts. Got married in my young 20s, which I don't recommend people doing. Even as a wedding officiant. I'm like, at least be in your mid to late twenties, preferably, preferably even your thirties, know who you are.

Timmy Gibson [01:54:27] So I'm, for the first time in my life, I get to make my decisions how I want live how I want, do what I want, date who I want. You know what I mean? Like there, I have no restrictions on me religiously, none. And ironically, I never did tell this, I don't think I mentioned this to you, but I, I still was going to a church. Now I didn't go to an evangelical church, I could not do that. But I was going to like a Methodist, a real liberal Methodist church at the time. Because I've, even though I was a non believer, I was going just for community.

Timmy Gibson [01:55:04] And I was like, yeah, I don't have to go, I'm not the pastor, I don't feel obligated to go, go, I want to go. Until it got to the point where I was like, I, I don't want to go. This doesn't make sense. I'm struggling with too many things I'm hearing taught that I know aren't true. Empirically I know these are false. And so that's actually a little side journey. So I'm, you know, single, living on my own for the very first time. I'm still going to church, even as an agnostic, potentially at the time, atheist agnostic.

Timmy Gibson [01:55:33] And I'm going to church and I'm dating and living my life, and I did that for about three years. And then I met my now wife, who's precious and we're super compatible and. And she's actually spiritual. She's, you know, she's definitely not Christian. She feels the same way about Christianity as I do, but, you know, she's spiritual and we get along just great. You know, she doesn't demand that I believe what she believes, and I never demand that she believes what I believe.

Timmy Gibson [01:55:59] The main thing is, is that she treats me right and I treat her right, and that's what. What we both care about, you know, what is that. What is it that we always say our values are the same, you know?

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:56:09] Yeah. No, that's exciting. So when. So let me get the chronology. So 2019 is the divorce,

Timmy Gibson [01:56:14] huh? Yep.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:56:15] The. The. When was the last. When did. When was the last Sunday at the church?

Timmy Gibson [01:56:19] 2020.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:56:20] Okay. The next year.

Timmy Gibson [01:56:21] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:56:22] When do you meet your now wife? What year is that?

Timmy Gibson [01:56:24] 2023.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:56:27] Yeah. So very recent. Okay.

Timmy Gibson [01:56:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're newly married.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:56:31] Yeah, man. We're gonna. Look, we're gonna have to go get coffee or scotch or something and go.

Timmy Gibson [01:56:34] Absolutely, brother.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:56:35] Have a conversation, man. We need to dive further into all of this because there's just a lot of similarities here. So. All right, so let me. At some point, I'm trying to remember this, so just fix my memory if I'm wrong. But you. At some point. So you grew up in this really religious family, and your parents, I think at this point, just even now, are still committed evangelical Christians.

Timmy Gibson [01:56:58] Very.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:56:58] Yeah. Yeah. There's some. There's some. In one of the interviews, you were talking about Thanksgiving dinners where, you know, they. They are in tears because they think that you're going to hell. Is that right?

Timmy Gibson [01:57:12] Yes.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:57:13] Am I remembering that correctly?

Timmy Gibson [01:57:14] Yeah, yeah. They. They. They even, as recently a couple months ago, you know, sat down with me and in tears, you know, and I know they're sincere. You know, I. I love my parents. Right. And I would say, and I do say that they're sincere, you know, they're sincerely mistaken. In my view, and they just don't want to.

Timmy Gibson [01:57:38] They feel like heaven is a reality. Heaven and hell is both. Both those are realities. And they do believe that you can lose your salvation. So, you know, they feel like I've. I've walked away. And so that, you know, if, if, when they die, they want to know that when I die, I'll be reunited with them in heaven. And here's what's fascinating. I don't know how you deal with this kind of stuff, you know, because I love my parents and I definitely set up boundaries and, you know, and I tell them often, you know, hey, I know this is what you believe, and that's fine.

Timmy Gibson [01:58:05] I don't care that you guys believe it. I'm not trying to convince you to believe, you know, in the reality of life. But, you know, I'm like, you know, I don't ever try you to convince, like, convert you from, to leave Christianity. And I said, I would appreciate if you, you know, would do your darndest to stop trying to convert me, you know, back to Christianity. And I remember so oftentimes when I talk to them, I have to talk to them in theological ways, you know, and when they say, you know, they don't want to be in heaven without me, and I'm like, yeah, but there's no more dying sadness or, you know, in heaven, right?

Timmy Gibson [01:58:37] So the fact that I won't be there actually, according to the Bible, and what you believe won't matter. You know, you, you only know that now and are only sad about that now in heaven, according to the Bible, that won't be in existence. So you're actually being sad about something now that you won't be sad about in the future. And so I'm like, that's kind of a waste of, of, of energy, you know, like, why not worry about that one? And it, when it happens? And I said, the thing is, according to the Bible, you won't be worrying about it.

Timmy Gibson [01:59:12] So I try to have these rational conversations with them, you know, to, to rationalize even their, their own beliefs. And, you know, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, you know,

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:59:25] so, so those are, those are you. You said you set healthy boundaries with them. I want to talk just a few more seconds about that, a minutes about that, because I think it's important for people listening. So one of the things I find is people, people watching interviews like this, like you and I have watched many of interviews like this.

Timmy Gibson [01:59:41] Oh yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [01:59:42] People are watching that to realize they're not alone. They Might be watching this right now, going, man, I feel all those things. I was where Timmy was six years ago, or I, you know, I understand what Todd's talking about here, and that makes sense to me. Maybe for the first time or I've never read Sapiens. Maybe I'm going to go read that now because I've got questions about evolution and I'm a creationist in a specific church. Regardless of what those, those things are, I think one of the biggest things I find, at least in the decon recon, the online community I have, the biggest issue is for me, it was theology. For most people, it's relationships.

Timmy Gibson [02:00:16] Yep.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:00:16] Right. It's the biggest challenge. And you know, these are your parents.

Timmy Gibson [02:00:21] Right.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:00:22] This is not a, this is not an ancillary relationship. This is not, you know, three rungs down on the sphere of influence. The circles of the sphere of influence. Right. This, you are, this is the core.

Timmy Gibson [02:00:33] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:00:33] This is your hub. These are, these are your parents. What is it, what is it like both to deal with those very difficult conversations, to watch them shed tears on your behalf, to know that those are sincere tears? And so what is it like to be in that situation? What are you feeling at that moment? Are you feeling responsible for their pain, for example? I'm just, I'm just throwing some stuff out here. And then secondly, how do you, when you say you put some healthy boundaries, what does that look like? So what are you feeling in those moments? Do you sometimes feel responsible, right or wrongly? And then, and then what kind of boundaries do you put in place?

Timmy Gibson [02:01:13] Yeah, great questions, Todd. I do feel frustrated at times, and it's definitely a point of contention where it's, it's frustrating for me that, that, that what I would say is that, you know, they're not respecting me as a, as an adult human, and they're not even reciprocating the, the. Because I don't talk to them about my atheism. And you know, I don't, I just don't talk to them about that. I don't, you know, I just, I don't, it's not something that comes up. There's so much in life I can talk about without talking about that, but for them, it, it, it's exudes out of their pores.

Timmy Gibson [02:01:50] You know, they can't, they can't not, not talk about it. So it's very frustrating. I don't feel responsible because, you know, my journey has been a very thoughtful journey. One of, of, you know, I demand the truth. You know, I demand honesty and Truth and evidence and things. So, you know, it's, it wasn't some willy nilly decision of, you know, I want to live a life of sin and so I'm going to walk away from the church. No, it was like, you know, it was, this was a very thought out intellectual journey. And I know you can resonate with that. You know, I, I, it just was very theologically driven for me as well as relational and everything else, you know, and so for them to continue with what I would call the, the faith without evidence and the, these dogmas, knowing that some of the things that they say and believe aren't even agreed on in their Christian faith, you know, that's frust, that's the frustrating part is that they all, they only listen to the evangelical fundamental literalist type preachers all the time and only listen to a certain news channel also.

Timmy Gibson [02:03:13] And, and so they just, they don't even realize that it's confirmation bias to the nth degree. And they would deny that it's confirmation bias. They would say it is the truth. That's why they believe it is, because it's true. And, and that's just frustrating, you know, when I'm in those kind of conversations because I'm like, no, like I, I, I, you know, that's absolutely not true. You know, I could even bring, it's like what I've sent them like Bart Ehrman videos or Earman.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:03:44] Oh sure.

Timmy Gibson [02:03:45] And because my dad likes to think he's very theologically sound and you know, even I can dis, you know, disprove what he's saying and show him contradictions and you know, he just can't see it and, but he won't even, because he'll send me preacher videos and I'll watch them because I'm, you know, if you ask me to watch it, I'll watch it now. Not too much. But there's sometimes, what do you think about this? And you know, and I'm like, okay, here's a bar earman video. What do you think about this? And then I'll talk to my dad the next week and go, what'd you think of that, Bart? Aaron? He goes, I didn't watch it. I don't want anything

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:04:14] to,

Timmy Gibson [02:04:14] to mess up my belief, you know, you know, that I don't want anything to, to come against my belief. And I, that's frustrating. It's, it's frustrating when here's the truth and someone just, I don't want to see that if that's gonna at all challenge what I already think I don't even want to see it. That is frustrating. And so do

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:04:37] you find it. Do you find. I'm sorry.

Timmy Gibson [02:04:39] Oh, go ahead, Go ahead.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:04:40] Yeah. Do you find it, like, when you. He expects you to watch his videos.

Timmy Gibson [02:04:44] Right?

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:04:45] Okay. Right. I find. I find that interesting, too. In my situation. I will send. I will send a video almost as a, you know, a countermeasure to an email I might receive from a friend, and I'll say, listen, I'll. I'll be. And maybe you can do this. I'll say, listen, listen, glad to watch your video, but I'm going to insist that you watch mine first.

Timmy Gibson [02:05:04] Yep, yep. Now,

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:05:05] as soon as you watch my video, we'll have a discussion about it, and then I will commit to watching yours, and I always do that. But I'll. I'll require actions on their part if they're wanting me to enter into a conversation, because I find, by and large the Christians that I talk to, they're certain that they're. They're right. Their whole job is to get me back in. So watching a video, like your father might say, I don't want to have anything enter my mind that goes against my beliefs. That's what they'll say. Say,

Timmy Gibson [02:05:28] yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:05:28] Anyway, it was just a side note. I thought it interesting. What are the boundaries you put in place with your parents? What does that look like?

Navigating Family Relationships After Leaving Faith

Timmy Gibson [02:05:34] Is that I say, listen,

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:05:36] yeah,

Timmy Gibson [02:05:37] clearly you guys believe what you guys believe. I, you know, know what I know. You know, it's like, I'm like, fine, you believe what you believe. I believe it. I believe. And, And I tell them, I say, listen, guys, I'm okay with you being Christian. I said, that's your. It's your life on earth. Here. It. You're free to believe what you guys want to believe, and I just need you to be respectful and allow me to live the life that I'm living. And I said, you know, as long as I'm a good person, you know, I said, if, you know, if you see changes in my character and like, you know, shady stuff or whatever, fine, you can talk to me.

Timmy Gibson [02:06:19] But you're just talking about a belief here, you know, which is interesting because it, like, if I would have converted to Hinduism, it would have been just as bad. I think atheism might be a little worse than. Than Hinduism, even for my parents. But that's what's also fascinating. It's not that I'm. I could still be religious, but if I'm not their religion, then they would feel this same way. Because if you're not a Christian, if you're not born again by Jesus, then you're going to hell. They don't think that's true. Like if they took a lie detector detector test, it, it would confirm that they believe that 100%.

Timmy Gibson [02:07:04] You know, not that it's actually detecting truth or false. It's detecting whether they believe it. And it would be off the charts that they believe it.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:07:13] Yeah. Just as we both do. Did.

Timmy Gibson [02:07:15] Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:07:16] Yeah.

Timmy Gibson [02:07:17] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:07:17] So, so 30 years of preaching and then I want to talk about where you are today. I've got one more question in this, in this, in this chapter, you. 30 years of preaching. I've thought back on this. I'm curious to see what you think. What are the things you preached about, what subjects that you preached about over those 30 years? Do either in, in these terms, do you either regret teaching that you would like to hold on to? What are those things that you. Well, you know what, let's focus on this. What would you take back? Like, what do you, what do you most, what are you most regretful of or sad that you preached or, or now just go, man, that was crazy. I can't believe I did that.

Timmy Gibson [02:07:58] Yeah, the condemnation of other belief systems. I, that, that, that's a big regret even. I don't believe in regrets. But you know something I wish I could reel back in that you can't have a meaningful life without God, that atheists are the devil.

Timmy Gibson [02:08:15] Science is the enemy of, of faith. All of those just corrupt. The fact that I used to teach that if you want to be blessed in this life, you got to give financially. You know, if you have sin in your life, you know, you're opening yourself up to the devil to get sick or to, you know, have something bad happen to you, all that stuff. I so wish that I could delete that from ever having said that because that's not just like a poor, that's like a bad teaching. No, it's a hundred percent false. It is absolutely not true in any way, shape or form.

Timmy Gibson [02:09:01] And the fact that I preached it with such conviction that I knew is, is a bummer. And, and the big, you know, the, the evolution and creation and just, you know, like I consider creation paramount to believing the earth is flat. You know, it's, it's like empirically false. It's like absolutely not true. And so the, the fact that I used to stand up in front of, of 300 people and say things that are that were provably false, it makes Me shake my head sometimes, you know, I'm just like, oh, my goodness, I can't believe I used to say all that stuff.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:09:44] Yeah. What do you say to Christian who might be watching this? Maybe they have questions, but they still consider themselves a follower of Jesus, for example. And you just said just now, what. What if they said to you, well, Timmy, it sounds like you're just being sure on the other side of the coin, you're certain now about it not being true. Just as certain as you were about it being true. How would you respond to that?

Timmy Gibson [02:10:02] You know, I. That's a. That's a good comment. I. I've thought about this because to me, this is something that people can understand if you just think about this Christian, if you were arrested for something terrible that could put you away in life, in prison, and you didn't do it, what would you want more than anything? Evidence. You'd want evidence. CT cameras, cell phone stuff, DNA, fingerprints. Like, you would want the evidence. Why? Because you're innocent. The evidence would prove it was someone else. So I think what I would say to Christians, because I had someone ask me, what would I say to myself back then? Demand evidence. You know, fine, if you want to believe in God, that's fine. But if the evidence is pointing towards evolution, be a Christian that believes in evolution at least. Right? It's like, at least believe things that are true as true. You know what I mean?

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:11:08] Yeah, No, I think that's very good. I think that's a very good thing to. For people to hear. Are you. Did you ever. Did you ever go back to people and apologize for anything that you might have taught or shared with them? You're not a Christian.

Timmy Gibson [02:11:24] Yeah, I get that question often. I did in a. In a Facebook post years ago, just, you know, I know this was a. You know, I kind of just poured my heart out on a post and also just in what the work I'm doing now through YouTube, you know, I've mentioned that, but, you know, it, like, it saddens me that I led people astray, though, at the time. You know, you understand this, Todd? I was sincere. I genuinely, deeply, profoundly believed it. So it wasn't malicious. It wasn't. There was no. You know, I wasn't a con artist as much as, you know, people will want to.

Timmy Gibson [02:12:06] You were a grifter then, you're a grifter now, and people say all the crazy things, and it's like, no, man. At the time, I really, really believed it. I really believed that I was saving people from Eternity in hell. I really thought that's what was up.

Timmy Gibson [02:12:20] And, and as soon as I realized that wasn't what was up, I shifted. And so really, if, if there's ever an apology, because I don't know how I could get all 300 people back in the room where I could have a real heart to heart kind of conversation with them outside of what I do here on YouTube now, you know, yeah, if I could pull everybody together, you know, I would do that. But I do it through all my videos and, and sharing my stories of what I used to believe and what I believe now and where I'm at now and what I think now and, and just telling my, my story, that's kind of, that's my apology.

Timmy Gibson [02:12:53] You know, it's like, hey, listen, now that I realize this isn't true, a, I'm not going to be teaching that anymore. I'm going to be teaching what is evidentially true and what I see to be true in this new book of, of my life.

The Harmonic Atheist Channel and New Community

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:13:10] Well, let's talk about this. You've got a YouTube channel. That's how I found you.

Timmy Gibson [02:13:12] Yeah,

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:13:13] yeah. You know, you didn't, as I understand it, the, the YouTube channel. And I just started mine. Right. So it's a new process for me. And you were one of the first people I saw in this space. And it was quite encouraging. I don't know if I've told you that. Very encouraging. But it didn't start as a deconstruction channel, as I understand it. Tell me about watching. Was it Dancing with the Devil?

Timmy Gibson [02:13:35] Yeah,

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:13:36] right. Yeah, tell me about that and how that connects to the YouTube

Timmy Gibson [02:13:39] channel. So, yeah, I'm watching that Netflix series, Dancing for the Devil.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:13:45] So for those who hadn't watched it, what. Tell me about, tell them about that.

Timmy Gibson [02:13:48] Yeah, so it's, it's like a little docu series, I think it's three episodes. Talking about a cult, basically a, a church culture. Shekinah, I think it's called Shekinah Church in Los Angeles that runs a tick tock dance cult as well as it's tied to this evangelical church. And I am watching this docu series and it's showing clips from within the church. And I'm sitting there on the couch with my wife and I'm like mesmerized. I keep pausing and I'm like, babe, I used to preach that like that. Literally, these are the messages that I used to preach. Like this dude is saying the same things that I used to say.

Timmy Gibson [02:14:41] So I'm watching this and I'm. I'm just. I'm freaking out. I'm really, really kind of just freaking out as I'm watching this series. And by the time I get to the end of it, I looked at my wife and I said, I think I was a quasi evangelical cult leader.

Timmy Gibson [02:14:57] And she's like, what? And I said, yeah, obviously benign. I wasn't mixing up any Kool Aid. I said, but all of this stuff, you can't have a blessed life without God. You got to give to God to be blessed. All the. I said, and healing. And like, that dude is literally. I could have preached at his church. He would have invited me in back in the day, and I would have, you know, they would have loved me. This. I'm like, this is crazy.

Timmy Gibson [02:15:23] So that literally, I told her, I said, because I had an existing YouTube channel with 423 subscribers, and I would every once in a while post some things about relationships and different things. And I was like, I'm gonna get on my YouTube channel and just talk about this, about this series, this docu series, and just be vulnerable. I. I had no. This wasn't like, I'm gonna start YouTube now. And it, it was none of that. I didn't even know what the word deconstruction meant. I didn't even know. I don't even think I used that word in the episode. I just started press record and said, hey, I'm Timmy Gibson.

Timmy Gibson [02:16:00] I used to be a quasi evangelical cult leader. And, you know, here's my story of, of walking away from my Christian faith and blah, blah, blah. And I just was just talking casual. I was like, whatever. And then when I was done, I push, stop, pushed upload and titled it, I think a former pastor, former cult leader, whatever. I entitled it and woke up the next day and I had all these notifications and I was like, oh, wow, I got some views. I was like, whoa.

Timmy Gibson [02:16:31] I got like 12, 000 views overnight. And I'm like, whoa. I've never had that many views ever. This is crazy. The next day, 50,000. I'm like, like, I'm like, what is happening? This is insane. Well, then I had. Someone had told me about a show called Cults to Consciousness, who's, which also is a Mormon YouTube channel.

Timmy Gibson [02:16:54] Salish over there, someone had mentioned to her about me. And someone said, you ought to go mention yourself to them. And so I went on their website and just said, hey, you know, yada, yada, yada, you know, I'm a former cult leader. And then literally the Next day, they reached out to me and they said, we would love to interview you on our show. And they've got, you know, 300, 000 plus. I don't even know what they have a lot. Big show, right? So I'm not even at a thousand subscribers at the time. And this was all new to me. Still did not plan on being a YouTuber at all.

Timmy Gibson [02:17:27] And they interviewed me and I guess, you know, the interview went so well. That episode, I don't know what, it got like150,000 views or whatever, but they were sweet enough to me me, they said, hey, listen, this, we're gonna make this go live in, in a couple weeks. You should definitely be recording videos and sharing your story, because once this goes live, you know, we'll send people over there. You should do this. And you know, I'm. I'm a opportunist for the most part, you know, and I thought, yeah, I mean, I preached every Sunday. I can do a video every week, no problem. And so I just started this going back into the recesses of my life as a, as an evangelical preacher and what I thought and some things about my family and just, you know, just as, you know, just started picking topics and sharing ideas.

Timmy Gibson [02:18:16] And then that's when really I started even watching other content because really at the time I'd only seen some of the bigger content that kind of everybody sees, you know, and I'm starting to see content and get ideas and go, oh, well, that's. That they would be interested in. That's part of my story. Okay, I'll tell that, you know, and here we are. The, the rest is, is history.

Timmy Gibson [02:18:39] I started getting on other podcasts just like you start getting on some other YouTube and everybody's interested in my story. And I'm like, wow, this is crazy. I, I just never would have thought anybody was interested in it. And I didn't even know it was the thing called deconstruction. I'm like, okay, I, I guess that's what this is called. I don't know. I just left. You know, I didn't think I was ever going to really tell my story. It was just kind of my own personal little journey.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:19:03] Yeah, no, we have again, similarities are crazy. I, I launched my YouTube channel because Tim Mills at Harmonic Atheist said, you know, start a channel because he was, he was my first interview. I mean, the first interview that I had was on his, his podcast.

Timmy Gibson [02:19:17] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:19:18] So he just said, don't need any videos, just start a channel. And then we'll just have a link there and then people can go in there, just maybe put a video up. Go. So I'm gonna have some videos on here down the road. Like it literally was that just like you did with calls to consciousness. Chalice, by the way, is amazing. They interviewed me last week.

Timmy Gibson [02:19:32] Okay.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:19:33] I don't know when it's coming out, but she, I, I love her, her, her show. I love everything about what they're doing. Yeah, they do. They do a phenomenal job. I didn't know that part of your story. That's

Timmy Gibson [02:19:41] great. Yeah.

What Timmy Believes Now

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:19:41] All right, so. So Timmy, what do you believe now? Let's get to that. We're gonna kind of close this up here in the next five or 10 minutes. But what, yeah, what do you believe now? What are you uncertain about? What are you okay saying you're uncertain about just. Yeah. Belief. Timmy's belief system.

Timmy Gibson [02:19:59] Yeah. So what I believe now is I'm more of a evidential based belief. You know, I'm a materialist. I don't believe in any kind of ghosts, goblins, spirits, demons, devils, you know, UFOs that are aliens. I mean, I'm sure there's, there's life out there, I'm sure somewhere. But yeah, I just, I don't believe in any. The Bigfoot lock next monster. Like, you know, I left the land of all mystical things. And, and I often say this on my channel, you know, I'm certain that the Bible, God's not a real thing. I mean, I, I think, you know, that's pretty, pretty provable really. And not, not in a, I don't know what you'd call it, etherical way, like, you know, know, but it's pretty provable that this Bible God was like a made up character from earlier things.

Timmy Gibson [02:20:50] So I'm, you know, I'm certain that no religion has captured God. That's why I'm atheist. I'm also atheist as it relates to any God. I don't believe in any God, though I do say I'm agnostic in Is there a God out there? Well, how the heck can I know? I don't know. And, and what happens after we die? I don't know. I don't think anything. I think when your brain shuts down, that's where your consciousness is. The consciousness is a product of your brain. And so when that shuts off, your consciousness shuts off and that's it. And do I have proof of this? You know, well, of course not.

Timmy Gibson [02:21:28] And that's the thing. I forget who's made this Quote, but anybody that tells you they know what happens after you die is either lying or a fool. And, and that's just true because it's like I'm atheist. Even I say, well, I don't know what happens after we die. You know, how could I know? No one knows. And, and that's the truth. And so for me, I think more than ever in my life, fascinatingly enough, I really care about truth. Capital T, truth, what is empirically, provably true.

Timmy Gibson [02:22:06] And when it comes down to anything that we don't know, I would say, well, I don't know. I mean, here's what I would believe, here's what I believe about it. But I don't know, you know, if there's something after this. And like some other famous atheist once said, you know, I do love surprises. Yeah, I do. I do love surprises.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:22:30] You know, I talk to people. When I, when I describe myself right now, I say I'm a non resistant, non believer. You know, I, I don't see the evidence that there is a God, but I'm certainly open to that concept. And, and then also when people say, what do you believe? Now? I say, well, as of today at, you know, 2 o' clock in the afternoon, I think this. Right. It's just like it could change tomorrow. And that's okay. And I really like the fact that you're, you're pursuing life with the same level of, of both intellectual rigor, but also openness.

Timmy Gibson [02:22:59] Yes, well, I,

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:23:00] yeah,

Timmy Gibson [02:23:00] that means a lot to me because I, I think, you know, from a lot of fundamentals, you know, they, they view me as, you know, closed off. And, and you know, it's kind of like that famous debate. I'm sure you've watched it. Everybody has that famous debate between Bill Nye the Science guy and Ken Ham. And they asked that one famous question, what, if anything, could change your mind. It. Bill Nye the science guy said, evidence.

Timmy Gibson [02:23:26] That's the right answer. And then, you know, the other guy said, nothing, absolutely nothing could change my mind. And you know, for me, I find that intellectually ignorant. I don't, I don't, I don't respect that com. I don't respect that kind of a comment at all. Because even me as an atheist, well, yes, of course I would believe in God. If the evidence would support that belief, I would be helplessly forced to believe in it. Is that, I mean, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:23:55] Yeah, I agree. I don't, I don't think we can choose what we believe. We're either convinced or we aren't. And so you and I stand today unconvinced. That doesn't mean that we cannot be convinced by additional evidence.

Timmy Gibson [02:24:04] Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah.

What He Still Misses About Christianity

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:24:07] Is there anything about Christianity you still miss?

Timmy Gibson [02:24:13] That's a good question. I guess if, if I'm gonna be like, just vulnerable. I did enjoy the community. I have now built another community which I get a lot of fulfillment from. And so maybe I'm sympathetic or empathetic towards those who really struggle with this is one of the big struggles I see in people is that they lose their community. You know, going through a divorce, losing, you know, closing the church chapter, changing my career, you know, forced me out into a whole new world which I rebuilt around my new beliefs and my new life worldview, I guess you'd say.

Timmy Gibson [02:24:56] And, and thankfully I was able to, to do that and I had some good friends already in my life that, that stuck around. But if, if there was anything that I missed, that there's something about that weekly gathering together in person that is cool. And, and you know, I've had people say, why don't you start an atheist church? I'm like, oh, you know, like this is it, like this is it. Like this is what I do now for regular teaching, regular community is, is a lot of this. But yeah, that I, if, if, if I'm being vulnerable.

Timmy Gibson [02:25:34] That weekly in person gathering with music and you know, that is something that was always a joy. And then I'll be honest, I don't go to church anymore, mainly because I just don't find value in it. But it's not, I'm not going to say I would never go. I'm not going to say I would never go for a Christmas Eve candlelight service, you know, on a midnight Christmas Eve. Obviously I don't believe any of what they would say in any way other than just the beautiful structure of the building, the stained glass, the candles. You know, I still find that stuff cool. Yeah, I don't know if that makes me weird, but.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:26:22] No, no, I appreciate the honesty about that. I think that's very helpful for people to, to hear as well. Anything that. Well, first of all, tell, tell everyone watching where they can find you, your social media channels, YouTube, just. Where can we find Timmy if you want to know more about you and, and what you think and, and how you're engaged online.

Where to Find Timmy and Closing Thoughts

Timmy Gibson [02:26:39] Yeah. On Facebook, I, I do have a deconstruction Facebook group called Timmy's Deconstruction Community. And I think we've got 15, 000 or 1500 to 2000 people in there. It's just a free fun spot to. To. To share fun things. And then my personal Facebook is Timmy Joe Gibson, if you just want to be a personal follower on there. Mainly that's about my weddings and stuff. So I don't usually cross over too much there on. On things Instagram. It's just Timmy Gibson Casey again, mainly focused on my weddings.

Timmy Gibson [02:27:14] My main thing is the. The Timmy Gibson on YouTube. I think the actual. It's Timmy Gibson Casey from Kansas City, kc so. So that's how you can find all my content. I publish a video every Sunday and every Wednesday to keep true to my heritage of the church. Church dates. And then I also do Fun Fridays and so I can talk about anything and that I want to primarily. I mean, it still stays within the realm of, of deconstruction. Ish. But sometimes I'll throw fun stuff in there, you know, because I'm a relationship coach and I do a lot of weddings and I'm in that space.

Timmy Gibson [02:27:52] So sometimes I'll get on there and talk about anything that I want to on a Fun Friday. That's why we call it Fun Friday.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:27:59] That's great. Well, Timmy, listen, I really genuinely appreciated this discussion. It's one that I was looking forward to. It's one of the first in this mini series, this new podcast, so. Oh, so

Timmy Gibson [02:28:10] cool.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:28:11] Yeah. So it's been an exciting process for me. Your interview number three, as a matter of fact. So excellent. When I say new, it's very new. And it's. I had the. It was really exciting because I've had lots of opportunities through other interviews etc, to kind of pick the five that I wanted to talk to.

Timmy Gibson [02:28:28] Yeah.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:28:29] For this. Because there's only five, you know, as part of this first miniseries. And, and you were one of those that I really wanted to lock down. And it was really very fortunate for me to be able to have you as, as a guest on the show. So I really want to thank you for taking the time out, especially the amount of time we spent on this interview. So I really appreciate that.

Timmy Gibson [02:28:46] Well, Todd, I really appreciate you too, brother. And if, you know, to be even further vulnerable. I remember when I first saw you on Tim's on Harmonic Atheist. You know, I enjoyed the interview and, and, and there was an element of, to be honest, a little, little jealousy of like, dad gum, this guy's got. He's super educated, deep, he's an intellectual.

Timmy Gibson [02:29:06] And I hesitated to reach out to you because I was like, oh, man, you know, I don't know, you know, this guy's got the same story as I do. This, this, you know, like, competition feeling. And I remember thinking again, right, no Holy Spirit, no God, just in my own self. I was like, timmy, get over your pride, get over your ego. Reach out to this dude. This would be a great interview. You need to talk to him. It would be great.

Timmy Gibson [02:29:31] So anyway, I'm super glad that I reached out to you. Your content as well has been a real blessing to me. Just in your, again, in your more intellectual, theological perspective, it's, it's just different, you know, and I love it and I, I've gleaned a lot from it and so I'm glad you're in this space and, and I'm glad we've connected for sure.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:29:54] Well, you've taught me a lot and it, it means a lot that we were able to build what I hope is a, an ongoing friendship. And I mean that.

Timmy Gibson [02:30:01] Yeah,

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:30:02] sincerely. And listen, for everybody watching, I want to thank you for joining us today. I'm Dr. Todd Phillips. This has been Timmy Gibson. We've had this incredible interview with Timmy to just tell a little bit more about his story, where he came from and where he's going now that his beliefs have changed out of evangelical Pentecostal Christianity. I hope the story's been helpful to you. Look, if you're going through your own challenges regarding questioning your own Christian beliefs, whether it's Timmy's group on Facebook and we'll have that description, that link in the description below his website, his YouTube channel, Decon Recon, the community I've talked about, it doesn't matter where you go, go somewhere.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:30:34] I think the worst thing you can do, I really believe this because I spent years doing this, is go through this process in isolation. Please don't. You don't have to deconstruct alone. That is really my newfound passion is to make sure that people don't go through that process alone and can find places like Timmy's space or mine or others that are out there right now. Again, this has been in connection with Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. There is a link inside the description as well if you want to donate to continue this. This is a five part mini series podcast. Exvangelical Stories is the title, the name of this and again, it's in partnership with Mormon Stories.

Dr. Todd Phillips [02:31:09] If you'd like to see more than the five, please contribute to that and you will be able to see more interviews down the road. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.