Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 18, 2024, and today we have back in studio, Ryan Anderson. Hey, Ryan. Hi. And the reason we have Ryan Anderson back in studio is because we have Ryan's mom in studio. Jen. Hey, Jen.

Jen [00:00:20] Hey, guys.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Y' all may remember recently we had Ryan talk about her story and about kind of her family losing their faith while she was on her mission and what that was like to be a Mormon missionary when your whole family or most of your family kind of starts questioning and. Or leaving the Mormon Church. And it was such a compelling interview, and we had such a lovely time getting to know Jen, her mom, that we decided that we wanted to have Jen back to tell her side of the story. Right?

Jen [00:00:52] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] And the idea is what to do when, you know, you've sent a kid on a mission and your entire family as a parent, including you and your spouse, and many of the siblings lose their Mormon faith while their kid's on a mission. Does that sound right, Jen?

Jen [00:01:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Yeah.

Jen [00:01:12] It's a big deal.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] It's an epic story. So think of today's episode. Very much in the tradition of Donna Showalter, of Leah and Cody Young with Brinley, you know, the Langs, all those epic Mormon family in it to win it stories where they're living the Mormon dream, and then something goes terribly wrong. Does that sound right?

Jen [00:01:34] Definitely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] That's what today's about. Ryan, how's it feel? How's it been since your interview?

Jen [00:01:41] It's been wild, but really beautiful. It's really beautiful to feel seen and heard from other people. And I've had a lot of people reach out, and it's just been wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] Oh, good. Yeah. Well, good. Well, we're thrilled to have you all back. And if that weren't enough awesomeness, Margi's in the house. Hey, Margi.

Jen [00:02:00] Hey, there.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Thanks for joining us.

Jen [00:02:02] I'm so thrilled.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] Yeah.

Jen [00:02:04] Yes.

Jen's Mormon Upbringing and Family Life

John Dehlin [00:02:05] All right, well, let's get into it, Jen, now we're pivoting to your side of the story. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Jen [00:02:14] Okay, so my parents were both converts. From what I know, my mom's brother, who had kind of struggled in his life and been in some trouble, he met with the missionaries and joined the church and changed his whole life around. And so my parents became interested in that and eventually joined the church when I was about 2 years old.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] Is this in Colorado?

Jen [00:02:36] Nope. California. Yep. I grew up all in California. Yeah. All my growing up Will be there north or south. I mean, north is like Mount Shasta, which is, like, people don't even really know exists. It's, like, five hours north of Sacramento, so it's way, way up there by Oregon. Like, our steak was an Oregon steak, and it just kind of included a little bit of the Northern California.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] Oh, okay.

Jen [00:02:59] Yeah. Up in the mountains. Super.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] Northern California.

Jen [00:03:01] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] All right.

Jen [00:03:04] So my parents were sealed when I was about 3 years old, so like, a year after they got baptized. Yeah. I mean, where to go from there? I don't. I. I love my parents. I love my family. I have an older brother and three younger sisters, so we all grew up, and we're fairly Mormon. I would say my parents were relaxed. And how do I explain how they were like?

John Dehlin [00:03:42] I mean, as converts, they wouldn't have. Sometimes converts can be more relaxed. Sometimes they're trying to make up for the fact that they don't have pioneer heritage and they are converts by.

Jen [00:03:51] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] By going to 11.

Jen [00:03:54] Yeah. No, my parents were not like that at all. My mom was just the most fun and wonderful. She did all the road shows and all the dance festivals and all that. She just. I feel like they really just loved the community. Yeah. I think looking back on, I think my parents wanted a better life than what they both grew up in. They saw that in Mormonism. They saw that there was no drinking and no swearing in this great community. And families were forever, and there was opportunities for kids to socialize with other good kids. And, um. And that's what they gave us. So, I mean, my mom would go shopping on Sundays on occasion. They just weren't. We did. You know, we did family home evening. We were church every Sunday. But there was no shame. There was no. My mom welcomed everyone into our home.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] Yeah.

Jen [00:04:53] You know, she had friends. My aunt. My dad's sister is a lesbian and has a couple. They've been together for 50, 60 years, forever. And always just so loved and cherished in our home. So just very loving home. I loved my. I loved my parents. I was very, very close with my mom.

Jen [00:05:14] I was a huge mama's girl. I wanted to be exactly like her. And I just adored her. And everyone adored her. I would say she was very adored and loved and. Yeah. So I was gonna ask, do you feel like. So family culture versus, let's say, religious experience. Right. Like, do you feel like there was a lot of differentiation?

Jen [00:05:39] Was scripture reading? Like, was the religiosity. Did it penetrate your family culture? And how would you describe. I'm hearing fun Honestly. But how would you describe your family culture? I would say my family. Sorry, I'm like tripping over my words. I would say at home, I lived like the spirit of the gospel. We live the spirit of the gospel at church.

Jen [00:06:07] That's where I found shame and things that I never felt at home. So we weren't big scripture readers. I mean, by. We all went to semi. Mom taught seminary when I was in high school. She was more devout in that way, but it just was never kind of pushed on us. You know, I'd see her reading her scriptures.

Jen [00:06:25] We prayed at meals and tried to do family home evening and. But always went to mutuals, always went to church on Sundays. But, you know, if we traveled, we weren't going to church. Right. None of their families were really Mormon, so we were kind of the main. They weren't active Mormons. So it was more just enjoying the good things about the gospel. I think my mom was that way.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] You may or may not agree with this. I've been saying this a little bit lately, that I think religion at its best is the salt to the meal of life, not the meal. And even though some would say it's the pioneer intense Mormonism, that's the best Mormonism, I think the more relaxed, fun Mormonism is probably the best Mormonism. And it sounds like you got that. I don't know if you'd agree with that.

Jen [00:07:17] Oh, I absolutely would agree with it. Again, I felt. I felt the shame from church itself, the lessons, going to seminary, other leaders, the bishop, but never at home.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] Yeah, yeah.

Jen [00:07:29] And just to give a little example of. Because I did see that kind of religion in a friend. My best friend was. Was Mormon. We were both, I guess, considered Jack Mormons, probably because we weren't necessarily following the rules. But my mom sat me down once and said, like, I know you're kind of doing some of these things, you know, drinking or whatever. And she's like, but I. All I want for you is that you don't ever suffer the way I did when I was a teenager. So my mom got pregnant when she was in high school and had a baby and was kind of forced into getting married and was not a healthy, good relationship.

Jen [00:08:02] And so I have an older stepbrother, and I think she just had a lot of pain as a. As a teenager. And all she wanted was for me to avoid. To avoid that for her children. And that was kind of the feeling I got with how she lived the gospel and how she raised us. She just did. She just wanted to keep Us safe from what she experienced, you know?

John Dehlin [00:08:22] Yeah. Sounds like your mom, Margi. I mean, in some ways.

Jen [00:08:26] Well. And I relate to that.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] Right.

Jen [00:08:28] This idea of 100. If you. If there's a way as a parent that you feel guaranteed that you can protect your kids, you would do anything for that. So you're like, I'm in. There isn't anything I wouldn't give for that. Right.

Jen [00:08:42] So that was kind of my mom's way of kind of saying, like, I know you're not living all the things, but I just. I want to protect you and I love you. And I mean, once you said, like, you're the most perfect daughter I could have ever.

Jen [00:08:56] Sorry. Ever dreamed of. And I just remember thinking, wow, she knows the things I'm doing. She knows kind of that I'm not this perfect teenager, but she still just loved me. And so that's the kind of love that I received. Now, my best friend, her parents told her that if you came home, I'd rather you come home in a coffin than lose your virtue.

Jen [00:09:16] And that just blew my mind. Like, I was, like, I was so confused by her parents telling her that. I mean, now I understand. That's. That's the reality of what many. That's what they were taught over the pulpit, but that was not the way I was raised at all. Yeah. So I'm credibly grateful for my parents and how. How they loved us and. Yeah. Raised us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Your Mormon story sounded kind of healthy so far.

Jen [00:09:43] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:46] All right. So where do we go? Do we go to the teen years or.

Jen [00:09:49] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] Okay.

Jen [00:09:50] Yeah. So high school, I met my current husband, Andy. I drank in high school.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] I was meaning alcohol.

Jen [00:10:01] Yeah, I drank alcohol. And again, my parents knew, they didn't like it, but they never shamed or, you know, made me feel. I had enough. I felt bad about it enough, you know, But I was just a totally typical teenager.

John Dehlin [00:10:18] Yeah.

Jen [00:10:18] Or did sports. And I met Andy when we were 16, our sophomore year, and we fell in love pretty quickly. I fell in love with him. I guess I won't speak for him, but also, what do you remember about Andy during that time? Like, what drew you to him? Sure. What's really funny is he moved in his sophomore year to our high school. We had lived in a small town, and he said in one of the class, we had a class together. When he first moved in, he asked his friend next to him, who's that girl? And his friend said, oh, she's super stuck up.

Jen [00:10:53] You would not have A chance with her. And so he's like, I just moved on to, like, the next girl. But I noticed you right away. And then I did kind of hang out with older people. And so once all my older friends graduated, the next year we came back to school, and he was kind of grown up, and I was like, oh, he's cute. Anyway, so I kind of inquired about him, and then we just started dating ever since. And.

Jen [00:11:14] Yeah. Yeah. So that was just kind of a little high school story. But another obviously very important thing to talk about is my mom got cancer when I was in high school. So she first. They first found cancer in one of her breasts when I was in eighth grade. And I was actually at girls camp when they found it. And they immediately did a mastectomy.

Mother's Cancer and Early Loss

Jen [00:11:35] And that was just, like, such a huge part, obviously, of our story, you know, moving forward. She got. They said she was all cured for a few years. And then, let's see, sophomore year, she started feeling unwell, or junior. My junior year, she started feeling unwell, and they couldn't figure out what was going on. And a long story short, she ended up. The cancer had been spreading in her body for the last few years. So she had it in her lungs and her liver and her bone marrow and everywhere.

Jen [00:12:07] So for about the next year, she did really severe chemo and all the treatments and stuff, but nothing, nothing worked. So the church during that time was kind of interesting because she would receive blessings, sometimes of healing, sometimes of comfort.

Jen [00:12:28] But at one point, and also, it's good to mention, I think, that my mom's patriarchal blessing says that if she is faithful, she will live to raise her children to adulthood. She really clung to that at first, which is understandable.

Jen [00:12:48] But as, like, after about nine months went by, and they realized, like, it's just not working. A member of the 70 was in our community for, I'm sure, like a state conference or a regional conference or something. And they brought him to her to give her a blessing.

Jen [00:13:06] And I remember so vividly this blessing. I was a teenager, and I was kind of. I was of course, angry because, like, why my mom should not be dying. How could this happen? I have, you know, she's got five children, and my youngest sister was 10 years old, and he gave her a blessing. And in the blessing, he said, like, God is telling me that you will be able to do more good for your children on the other side of the veil than you will here on this earth.

Jen [00:13:37] And I was so pissed. I was like, how dare you? Like, I just thought, what a cop out, like that is. So I was just angry. I was very angry. And I think my mom found comfort in it. The only way she really could, like, yeah. So that was kind of a really, really big thing for me at that stage in my life, obviously. And within a few months, she passed away. After that, it was about a week before my senior year started. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] Did that. Did the blessings, the priesthood blessings, part of it, cause you at all to question what you've been taught about Mormon priesthood power?

Jen [00:14:23] I think I. I think I would have been considered a rebellious teenager. I was. I never really had a huge testimony. I think I believed it was true because I didn't know any other way to believe. I just believed it was true, but I didn't really buy into a lot of it. Like, an example would be Andy and I, when we were dating, and I would talk about the church and he would say, like, so your church teaches it like, your family is going to be together forever in heaven, but my family won't. And I was like, yeah, right. No, no, he's. He was not lds.

Jen [00:14:54] And I was like, well, I don't. I guess. But I don't believe that. That's not. Like, I don't believe that. That's not the way I was taught or raised about who Heavenly Father is or whatever. So I think my testimony was just like. Like I said, like my parents, like, it was just like, be a good person. My mom was just the best person I knew, and she was faithful, but she didn't push it on us. You know, she wore her garments diligently and read her scriptures. And again, like I said, she taught seminary, so I'd always see her.

Jen [00:15:24] She taught seminary my freshman and sophomore year. So right up until she got cancer really bad, she. And she was just so beloved by the kids, and she adored the kids. One of her kids ended up in prison for some minor, and she was there visiting him every day. And she just loved. She loved the people, she loved the kids. And so, yeah, I mean, I want to say I didn't have a really super big testimony of all the specifics. I just believed it was true because I believed families would be together forever. Yeah. You know, I believed that's all it takes.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] Right. I mean, sometimes it's better not to know the details.

Jen [00:16:01] Yeah. And I didn't. I really didn't. And I sometimes wonder if my parents did. But I will say I had this experience with my mom, very close before she passed away. And she was in bed and I was Sitting by her after school. And I said, like, how are you? And she said, like, I'm scared. And I remember, like, I couldn't deal with my grief in those moments. Like, I think back now, and I'm like, oh, those moments were so precious and fragile and vulnerable, you know, for her. And I remember saying, like, well, why are you scared? And she goes, well, I don't know if any of this is true.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Oh, yeah.

Jen [00:16:38] And that scared me more than anything. And I was like, of course it's true. Of course it's true, Mom. Like, it's true. Of course it's true. Yeah. And she said, no, yeah, you're right. You're right. And I'm just like, oh, who would she have been able to talk to about questioning?

John Dehlin [00:16:56] You know, you didn't need to question that at that point. Right.

Jen [00:16:59] I mean, I. It scared me when she said that, so I can imagine it scared me because I was like. I think part of me at the time probably knew it wasn't true in a lot. Like, I went deep enough, but her saying that terrified me because she was about to die. Exactly. And so I wonder about that a lot.

Jen [00:17:20] And that's why I go back, and I think because of how she raised me and who she was, I just genuinely believe that she just believed it was a good life, and it was. She gave us the most beautiful life. She just loved us. And it's clean living. You know, they stopped smoking weed, they stopped drinking when they were in their early twenties to join the church. And so she just, you know, you don't. You just have kind of a more solid foundation. I think she felt that way. Yeah. And it was a big improvement over her and my dad's lives growing up, you know, as teenagers and young adults.

Jen [00:17:51] And so I wonder. I mean, I'll never know, but I wonder if maybe she knew it wasn't true or at least suspected. So after her death, do you remember, like, your mindset during that time, how you processed the loss of her? Was it very much like, oh, I'll see her again?

Jen [00:18:17] Do you remember kind of how you processed losing her? And that anger piece in particular, um, if that was metabolized then, or if it kind of stayed with you, was shelved and you had to deal with it later? Like, how would you talk about grief? Yeah, I would say my family ignored it.

Jen [00:18:40] It's kind of hard to talk about now because it's just unbelievable how pushed under the rug all of it was. It was like she passed away, and that was kind of. It you know, I never saw my dad cry. And my mom and dad had an incredibly loving and wonderful relationship.

Jen [00:18:59] My mom loved my dad so deeply, and he was just so. I loved their relationship. Super affectionate. They just had fun. And she just always talked about how much she loved. They loved each other. I mean, I think, you know, my mom was the glue. I say that a lot. My mom was the glue that just held everyone together. Like her love and her goodness and her kindness, and she just, wow, was so fun.

Jen [00:19:22] And she was just the best of everyone. I think it's like she was the sun in the sky. Totally. Totally. And so we just didn't talk about it. It's so devastating now to think about that. And we just, I think, suffered individually. We didn't share grief. We didn't sit down and have talks about it. None of. No one went to therapy again. I never saw my dad cry. There was one time, so just a kind of a quick thing. We grew up up there. When my mom passed away, my dad, his job changed. And it was the beginning of my senior year, and he and my younger siblings all moved down to kind of the Bay Area.

Jen [00:20:05] And I stayed up and finished my senior year up and up North, Mount Shasta, Eureka. And one time I went down to visit for a weekend, and I was sleeping in the bed with my dad, you know, big king bed, and I slept in that bed with him. And I woke up in the middle of the night, and he was sobbing.

Jen [00:20:25] And that was truly, like, the only time I ever saw him cry. Right. I didn't even see it. He was trying to do it in private, but I would happen to be in the bedroom. And I remember thinking, oh, he's hurting. Because I just didn't know. I was very confused. I mean, and all the grieving, crying and sobbing and screaming that I did, I did on my. I did on alone in my car again at night when I was driving somewhere, I'd have to pull over. A lot of the times I couldn't drive and I was crying too hard or.

Jen [00:20:58] But the families are Forever was everything. That was everything. Yeah. I think that was the way to just put the grief under a rug and move forward. The ultimate compartmentalization. Right. When it comes to losing someone. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] I mean, we often, in deconstruction, decry the reality that it's this forever family doctrine that actually divides families in the afterlife and creates sad heaven. You know, that's what Mormon stories has talked a lot about the past 10 or 20 years. But the truth is, when you're losing a loved one. Maybe that's when the forever family Mormon doctrine shines, because it just gives you hope.

Jen [00:21:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] You'll see her again. Is that true or not true?

Jen [00:21:46] It's 100% true. But I think both two things can be true at the same time. Because what it also did was never allowed any of us to fully grieve my mother. Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] Because you'll see her again.

Jen [00:21:56] Yep. And when you get to the point of such grief and such, it's just that. Just go. You have to stop it because it's too scary to go. It's scary to go fully into your grief. But what it does is it never actually allows you to grieve because you have the thought stopping moment of, I will see her again. I will be with her forever. Yeah. And so I don't need to be so sad. Or sometimes I would shame my own self and think, I don't need to buy. Why am I feeling so desperately lonely and sad for my mom? I'll see her again.

Jen [00:22:32] So even the shaming of myself felt that way a little bit. And not allowing myself to feel the grief that I needed to feel, I mean, truly. And having attended, you know, Mormon funerals in particular, I do feel like that is an application sometimes that's used is that it's like, do you not believe exactly. In the afterlife? Because otherwise why are you sad? Exactly. It's an indication of. As opposed to, like. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] Anyway, if you don't have enough, I

Jen [00:23:07] totally see how it is, this interrupter of fully processing the loss of someone. Even if you believed it, then we would say for this lifetime, you still would need to process. Yeah, but I'm not gonna be with her in this lifetime. Yeah. Right. So either way, I want her now. Like, that was that blessing. That's how that blessing hurt me so much. When he said, oh, you can do more for your kids on the other side. Yeah. I was like, I'm 16 years old. I need my mom. Like, what? And my sister, my little sisters. Like, they're just children.

Processing Grief and Faith After Loss

Jen [00:23:39] Like, we need her now. Like, what do you mean? You know? And that did definitely put a sour taste in my mouth. And that's why, because it was like. But wait. And then it was like, well, you know, Heavenly Father takes all the best.

Jen [00:23:53] And I did find some beauty in that because I just truly believe my mom was just one of the best people that existed. She was so special and wonderful and so, yeah. I mean, I, I both things. I just have both things that are true at the same Time. You know, I was gonna say grief is one thing. I think grief is its own process. It's its own force. I almost feel like, um. But grieving alone, like, being isolated in grief, I feel like that's a whole different, you know, thing as a teenager, too. Yeah. And, you know, as I've unpacked that since leaving the church, a hundred percent, I'm still do.

Jen [00:24:45] I'm still unpacking it. And I just actually had this memory a couple weeks ago, and it just. It hurt me so much. And I remember it. Andy and I were dating before my mom died. And when my mom died and a couple months after my mom passed away, he broke up with me. And his reasoning was that you just have so much going on, and, like, you're like, it's so heavy, everything you're going through, and I just don't, like, have space for that.

Jen [00:25:12] And I look back now, and I was like, wow, what a thing for a teenage girl to hear. And obviously, I don't hold anything against him. He was a teenage boy, you know, he didn't sign up for. But I. Yeah, I mean, I had nowhere to go with the grief. I truly. It was all done. It was all done alone. Yeah. My dad and sisters were gone. And I think because no adult, like, pulled us together and said, like, let's sit together and talk. Let's share our feelings.

Jen [00:25:40] We all did it on our own. My younger siblings, my brother, me. Like, it was just all individual. There was never any. Any safe space to do that. So. Yeah, and back to your point about this idea of, like, oh, maybe this is where Mormonism shines. I also view it in that way of, like, how Mormonism can be so avoidant with emotions that are viewed as negative or hard. And so there's almost like this default of, like, oh, but happy, though. Oh, but we've got a solution. So back to happy, back to grateful, back to. Or whatever. And this is just feels like another layer of that, which to me, feels profoundly unrealistic.

Jen [00:26:29] We'll just say, you know, and unhealthy for humans to just sort of focus on and feel like there's one approved way to live. And it's kind of this happiness, grateful, positive. That's just not the way human beings are or life is, you know, so. Yeah, and I feel like a lot of times that those feelings of anger, of sadness, of grief are labeled as bad or from Satan, and that adds to, like, the shamefulness back on yourself as an individual and then wanting to just push it all down that's right. And not process it, which is so isolating. Like, in your situation, it's devastating. And then you disconnect from a whole part of you that actually is, like, I would say, really vital.

Jen [00:27:24] Like, we really get to know what we value and what we love. Through grief or through anger. Anger is so amazing for, like, boundaries or what isn't okay for us. Like, we disconnect from ourselves. So just feeling so much for you. Thank you for that time. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say I have also a vivid memory of when anger came up for me because, again, such as an emotion that we don't. We do not celebrate or validate in any way, you know?

Jen [00:27:53] And I had a dream. It was after I'd graduated from high school, and I went down and was living with my dad. And I was very angry. My dad was not in a good space, and I was living back there. And I was like, this is not the home I grew up, and this isn't even the dad that I remember.

Jen [00:28:09] And I was angry for my sisters and for myself. And I was feeling a lot of anger about, like, why would Heavenly Father take my mother from us? We need her. We need her so desperately. And I was wrestling with this anger. And I had this dream, this very vivid dream where my mom was back alive, and I was so happy. I was like, oh, yes, you're back. Like, we needed you so much. But in the dream, she was sick.

Jen [00:28:36] Like, terribly sick. Like, in so much pain. And I remember thinking, I'm so selfish for feeling this anger and this pain. Like, she's suffering, and when she passed, she's happy and, like, peaceful and healthy now. And here I am wanting her back. And how, like, selfish of me, you know? And I woke up and I felt like my anger is not good. I need to be humble and grateful and happier for her, you know, if that makes sense. But it was a really powerful dream because I remember thinking, like, okay, okay. It was best for her to pass away instead of suffer.

Jen [00:29:22] So, I mean, again, there's kind of beauty in that dream. But also, there was a lot. There was shame for me of feeling like, I'm so selfish. I'm so selfish that I can't see what was better for her and just wanting what was best for me. Yeah. So many layers. Yeah. Yeah.

Sexuality, Shame, and Bishop Interviews

John Dehlin [00:29:36] You mentioned in your outline you and Andy and your first sexual experience.

Jen [00:29:43] Oh, sure.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] So I just wanted to make sure, because you mentioned it.

Jen [00:29:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] That you have a chance if you wanted to.

Jen [00:29:47] No, this is actually a really important part of my story.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Because your mom was trying to keep that from happening.

Jen [00:29:51] Yeah, yeah, she was.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] The whole point.

Jen [00:29:53] Yes. But she knew it was happening. It's funny, my aunt told me afterwards. Oh, she knew. And I was like, she did? She's like, yeah, she knew Jen. And she just said, I'm just gonna love her anyway. It doesn't have. I'm not gonna. You know, I want her to be safe. And. And so, yes, we would do all kinds of, you know, stuff, and. But we never had sex. And at one point, it was just a few months into us dating, we had sex, you know, kind of on accident. Oops. Like, oh, my gosh. I did not intend for that to happen. And then I wouldn't.

Jen [00:30:27] I. I stopped talking to him. Like, I, of course, cried and was like, oh, my gosh, what have I done? My mom was sick at the time. What have I done? And I broke up with him, like, immediately and didn't talk to him for a few days.

Jen [00:30:42] And he was just so confused and. But there was just something inside of me. And this is where I look back, and I think I was always considered kind of rebellious and a girl with a lots of thoughts and opinions and.

Jen [00:30:56] And I love that about myself now, and I love that that didn't completely die. But at the time, there was shame and guilt around that, you know? Yeah. But there was something in me when that happened that I thought it didn't feel wrong.

Jen [00:31:10] It felt really beautiful. And like, we. I really love him, and he treats me really well, and we really care for each other. And there was just a part of me that. That became. I was like, that feels like more important. And I don't feel like we've done anything wrong.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] Yeah.

Jen [00:31:29] Because I felt bad in the second, but then I was like, but the whole experience was really beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] Yeah. So you're tuning into your own.

Jen [00:31:37] Yeah. And so, like, you know, two or three days later, I call him, was like, can we talk? And I said, you know, I. I've been taught, like, I want to get married in the temple. I want a forever family.

Jen [00:31:52] I want that to, you know, I don't know what that looks like in the future. Obviously, I didn't think I was going to marry him, but. And I said, so I have some things, but I love you, and I feel like you love me. And I feel like I want to stay together. And so we did. And continue to have sex.

Jen [00:32:12] So where that comes into play also is being interviewed by my bishop for my next temple. Yeah. Baptisms for the Dead. My next temple Trip as a youth, how old are you about this time? Do you say? 16. Okay. Yeah. A couple months after I turned 16.

Jen [00:32:33] So we were juniors. Okay. In high school. And he also had never had sex before. So. Anyway, so the next bishop's interview, we had a bishop, and I always thought he was kind of creepy, but, you know, what did I know as a teenager?

Jen [00:32:55] And I confessed that we had sex, and he's like, oh, who was the girl you just interviewed not too long ago? And her interview sounded exactly like my interview, which was. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone literally the exact same questions. Oh, like, how many fingers? And did you orgasm? And did it feel good?

Jen [00:33:17] And how many times did he. Like, sorry, I. Maybe. But, like, I mean, he wanted every detail. And I remember sitting thinking, that doesn't seem like it would matter. Yeah, that doesn't seem appropriate. And I felt so uncomfortable. Small side note, later found out that Bishop was molesting his step. Stepdaughter.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] Oh, good.

Jen [00:33:42] Found that out about six years later.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] So he was a pervert.

Jen [00:33:46] Yeah, he was a molest. Child molester.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Yeah.

Jen [00:33:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] He was enjoying.

Jen [00:33:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] Grilling you.

Jen [00:33:51] And I felt that. I felt that during that interview. But of course, it's like, no, I'm sure that's not. She's the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] That's Satan.

Jen [00:34:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] Your intuition.

Jen [00:34:02] Yeah. Or just me being stubborn and opinionated and prideful. Because that's kind of how I always

John Dehlin [00:34:07] saw myself as a teenager, you know, so complex.

Jen [00:34:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] Yeah.

Jen [00:34:11] And it felt. It just felt so inappropriate. But. But so then I was not able to go, you know, do baptisms. I actually went on the trip, but didn't. Couldn't go in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] That's a shame, because your parents are all wondering.

Jen [00:34:22] Yeah. But the other thing about this story is that my best friend was also having sex, who was Mormon, and she lied in her interview and was able to go and do all the things that I wasn't able to do.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Right.

Jen [00:34:36] And that started something very, very important inside of me, which was they just want you to present like it's better to lie. They prefer you lie. So, like, I'm being punished for being honest. And I didn't hold any, you know, shame against her. I knew how her parents were. Her parents were the ones that said, we'd rather you come home dead. Oh, okay. Then, you know, lost your virtue. So I had no judgment towards her. I got it.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] Yeah.

Jen [00:35:07] I understood why she would lie. I just wasn't receiving that same shame at home, that same narrative. And So I just didn't understand why I would lie. That's right. That makes sense. But it opened something in me. It realized something in me that was like.

Jen [00:35:22] Because then I think at the next state conference, they had her speak and it was like the spirit that she brings. How beautiful. Aren't we so lucky to have these youth that are living the values and having the spirit? And here I am, a girl who really can't participate in anything. And everyone knows that I'm, you know, done something wrong, which I'm sure they figure it. Sex.

Jen [00:35:44] And I'm kind of looked down upon. And she's built up on us. Wow. Pedestal. And I, throughout the rest of my life, saw that happening. People that were honest and real get the scarlet letter. Yeah. But all they really want is for you to present like you're doing all the things. It's kind of irrelevant if you're actually doing all the things. Especially as a teenager. I feel like we just want to present that all our teenagers are beautiful and pure and good and happy. And what's happening behind the scenes is kind of irrelevant as long as you can present a certain way.

Jen [00:36:19] And I noticed that. Did it come up for you at all with this friend who's giving the talk and people are saying just how beautiful the talk is and how, you know, amazing she is? Did discernment, that spirit of discernment kind of thing come over where you're like, oh, wow, people really can't tell. Oh, totally. Yeah. And I don't think I would have called it the spirit of discernment, but at the time I was like, she just had sex last night and got drunk.

Jen [00:36:44] And you're all, like, acting like she's an angel from heaven. So I kind of almost thought, like, I got this inside thing that I know that, like, other people don't know. Yes. I can so see that. And also, if you were rebellious too, just.

Jen [00:36:58] But. And she does still have beauty and wisdom. Absolutely. She's an amazing person. Yes. And I thought. And she was my best. Best friend. I loved her. She was amazing and talented and smart and. But she had to lie. She didn't have the support at home. And then just to see. Yeah. How that affected each of us differently.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] You know, man, the more I think about my Mormon past and all the people I've known and my mission and. Yeah. Sometimes it's the honest ones. You know, we used to always think of it as the. The ones that aren't super faithful missionaries or the kids that aren't totally on program in High school that they're the unfaithful ones. But the more and more I think about it, oftentimes it's them that were the courageous, honest ones, and it was the ones that looked faithful that were just lying.

Jen [00:37:51] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] Learning to lie.

Jen [00:37:53] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Being rewarded for lying. That's not always true, but I think it was often.

Jen [00:37:58] Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, not to go to Ryan's mission story, but that was the same. Was like she cared so deeply about doing the right and thing all the time, and that was why she suffered so much. Yeah. And then there's kids that are just there to kind of have fun, and they lie to get there, or they just don't care, you know, and. And they're just having the time of their lives. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] Yeah.

Jen [00:38:18] So, I mean, there's definitely a thing there.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] Yeah.

Jen [00:38:21] Yeah. Yeah.

College Years, Relationships, and Commitment to the Church

John Dehlin [00:38:23] All right. So. So I guess that takes you to college, maybe.

Jen [00:38:27] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] Or unless there's something else.

Jen [00:38:29] Yeah, yeah. So after my mom passed away, I finished my senior year up at. Up in high school and then moved down to college and college, I. You know, Andy and I separated. We had been dating for two years in high school, and he went to his college. I went down to live with my dad in the Tracy area, which is kind of like right off i5 in California and kind of in the Bay Area.

Jen [00:38:57] I went to a junior college there. I ran cross country because I ran cross country in high school, and I loved it. But that was kind of where I started going to a singles branch, singles ward, and kind of where I actually first got my testimony.

Jen [00:39:13] It was where I first kind of was like, I'm gonna really kind of pay attention and kind of start a new way. When my mom passed away and I started dating. I mean, when Andy and I were dating, Andy never drank or anything. In high school, he was almost more straight lace than me in that way. He just never drank. And so really, after my mom passed away, I kind of stopped doing all that. I, you know, I kind of drank and stuff with my team and just on weekends and stuff and like a regular teenager partying, whatever. But after my mom passed away, I really stopped all of that.

Jen [00:39:45] And so it kind of was a pretty gateway into, like, going down and starting at the singles branch. It's kind of a way to get to know people. And I think I had this idea that all these Mormons will just be amazing people. And I. And I actually had a wonderful branch. Like, the branch there was great. I met a lot of good, great people, and I just Started reading my scriptures and kind of saying personal prayers and attending activities and just kind of rededicating myself. Not even rededicating, actually. Just dedicating. So I hadn't really ever like, dedicated myself to church teachings or learning or that kind of stuff.

Jen [00:40:24] And so I think that's really my first. My testimony really started to bloom and take place and have a foundation other than just how I was raised, and families are forever and kind of all the good parts. So I started doing all that stuff and Tenny Institute and. Yeah, really rooting and creating a foundation of a testimony. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Somebody end up in Provo.

Jen [00:40:49] Yeah, I did end up in Provo, so I'll try to make this part short, but I started dating a guy, Jay, who was Mormon from the thing. We became very good friends and then started dating. And he was just such a wonderful person. And it was really cool because, I mean, Andy and I, you know, we had a very, like, immature relationship, like a very typical high school. We didn't talk about feelings a lot or, you know, we just kind of were doing the high school thing. Well, Jay found. When he found out that my mom had passed away, he was asking me about her all the time and tell me about her and what was that like?

Jen [00:41:21] And he would cry when I would talk to him about it. He was such a caring and wonderful person. And I hadn't ever experienced a relationship like that before. Yeah, because Andy and I were kind of, like, just like. It was. It was immature. You know, it was a high school relationship, and we didn't really have that kind of connection that way. And Jay was, like, the best friend that I never had.

Jen [00:41:42] And he sounds like you had an emotional connection. Absolutely. And no one had ever really, like, pulled me out emotionally like that before. He was just such a wonderful and kind person. And anyway, so that was like, oh, you can be in love with, like, your best friend, you know, and he went on a mission, and he gave me a promise ring and all that beforehand. And when he left on his mission, Andy and I kind of started dating a little bit again.

Jen [00:42:13] We had. I had gone back to, like, a homecoming at our high school because I was homecoming queen. They had you come back and, like, do the. The crown for the next year. That makes sense. And anyway, ended up seeing Andy, and we kind of got back together.

Jen [00:42:27] So was that at a distance then, was your relationship? He was in Portland, and I was down the Bay Area, so, yeah. And Jay had already left on his mission. Anyway, long story short, we just eventually, like, Andy And I were together for another year and a half after that. And Jay was like, just don't get married. I don't care what you do. Do not get married before I get home from my mission. And then Andy and I broke up and I moved out to Provo. Cause I didn't really quite know what to do. My whole life was kind of around Andy at that point.

Jen [00:42:53] And my friend lived out in Provo, and she said, just come out here. And I just. I had no home, really, anymore, you know?

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Yeah.

Jen [00:43:01] So I packed up my bags and put them all in my car and drove out to Provo. Yeah. Found an apartment there or just a bedroom with some really, really weird Mormon girls. I was like, what? Yeah. So that's where I went. And after my mom passed away, I never really had. Felt like I had, like, a home. Home. Yeah. You know, my dad became a really different person. And it just wasn't ever. There wasn't like a home.

Jen [00:43:28] So when my friend said, hey, come out. My same friend from high school said, hey, come out to Provo. You could live here. Yeah. And I was like, why not? Yeah, that could be a good place for me. All the Mormons. And I mean, I don't know what I thought of Utah. I thought it'd be pretty great, you know.

Jen [00:43:42] So I have a couple questions for you. Well, one is just, you know, I think sometimes what's hard in the loss of a person is that you actually, you have that whole journey of the loss of the person. But sometimes what you don't anticipate is some of the other losses that come. Like you were saying, she was the glue. She was the home. She was the. And so you lose all these other things through the loss of her. Right. The feeling of home or the feeling of place, or the version of your dad that existed at her side. Oftentimes, I think the other parent or part of partner changes considerably oftentimes after.

Jen [00:44:22] Right. The loss of. And so I just wanted to, like, state that, like, it feels like that was true for you at such a young developmental age, is that you actually lost a lot of grounding things for sure during that time. And just feeling for that. Yeah, I mean, I look back and I just think there was nowhere to go and, like I said, just was tethered to nothing. Yeah. So again, like, when Andy and I started dating again the second time once we were in college and we dated pretty seriously, I. I moved up and was living up in the northern area again and going to school up there, and we lived together For a summer.

Jen [00:44:58] And so we were very close. Like, we were very glued, like, I think. But then when that fell away, then I was like, what do I glue myself to next? I mean, I just had no connection. Impermanence. Yes. Like, you keep feeling like this loss keeps coming up. Right. Do you feel that way? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then you talked about kind of dedicating yourself now to living a version of the gospel that you hadn't up until then. Yeah. So what I'm noticing is, like, growing up, it feels like you had this little space for you to be a self and to differentiate. You were probably viewed as.

Jen [00:45:34] I don't know that, like, oftentimes the term are, like, not super positive about girls that have opinions and are. But I, like, so celebrate the fact that you had that. Me too. What did it feel like? What was your experience trying to do all the things in now a different way?

Jen [00:45:54] What was that experience like for you? Because you do have a sense of self at that point. So did you feel like you gave yourself over to it, that you gave your personality over to it? Was it effortful? Did you feel more like. Did it stabilize you? Just how did it feel? Yeah, that's a great question. I think about, like, I really was trying to fit into that when I got there. I.

Jen [00:46:20] So Jay and his friends, when we all became friends, they were a group of Mormon guys, just totally Mormon, you know, kind of the typical arrogant, but fun. And I hung out with them a lot, me and my sister. And I think I did notice, like, they're kind of annoying. They think they're like the, you know, here comes the language.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] We're here for it.

Jen [00:46:47] I'm making up for a lot of lost time, guys. And it kind of was like, oh, wait, is this, like, Mormonisms? I'd never been around Mormon guys other than, you know, my brother and, like, his friends. But they also didn't, like, live that, like. And they weren't raised like that. But these guys were, like, almost like Utah Mormon boys. Yeah. Arrogant. They thought they were like, the moon. They hung the moon. Like, I remember thinking, like, yeah, you guys are okay. You're cool. But, like, you're not that cool. But there, I. I don't know. I just kind of saw things that I. I noticed, but didn't really. I think I was still myself. Like, I think there were still probably some red flags for, like, Jay's parents.

John Dehlin [00:47:28] Yeah.

Jen [00:47:29] I wasn't maybe, like, the typical Mormon girl. Yeah. But I was welcomed and they were kind to me. And did it feel Effortful in that living now, let's just say like a new intensity or a new focus of what living the gospel meant during that time. Did it feel hard? Was it, like, just kind of dedicated to it? Right. I wouldn't say I was like. It was like I kind of created a testimony and it started to build inside of me, but it wasn't like I was, like, 100% devout as far as, like, Jay and I were still kind of getting in trouble with going too far.

Jen [00:48:11] I mean, obviously we never went all the way or anything, but it was still. And I didn't drink, but that had kind of been like that for a while. It kind of felt like. Like I'd done that when I was younger. I didn't have.

Jen [00:48:21] Yeah. But, yeah, I. I still felt a little bit like I didn't fit in. It's like an institute and stuff. I still kind of felt like I was looked at a little bit. Like I wasn't a typical Mormon girl. Yeah. Whatever that means. Kind of more like a Utah thing. I never really knew what that meant because that's not how I grew up. And, like, the youth I grew up with weren't like that necessarily, but I definitely felt like I didn't quite fit in, but everyone accepted me. Like, Jay's best friend once was like. Yeah, I didn't really understand why he started dating you at first.

Jen [00:48:53] But, I mean, now that I've gotten to know you, I. I totally get it. And I was like, I. I. Thank you. Like, I wasn't exactly sure, like. Yes. Because, you know, I was like. I wasn't typically pretty or typically. I was just kind of like. I didn't wear makeup. I was more.

Jen [00:49:11] I don't know, I just. Yeah, it was kind of me. Yep. And that's how my mom always was. And so I think I just learned to be myself from her. Like, she wasn't fancy or she was just herself, and people just gravitated towards her. So I think that's who I wanted to be. And that's kind of just. I'm me. And I don't think I knew that at the time, but it was like, I'm just me. I don't. I wouldn't have known how to be someone else, you know? But, yes. I mean, trying to fit into the church. I think I did see, like. Okay. Even when I'm trying to do the right things, I don't necessarily fit all the way. Yeah. So. Yeah, that makes that answer your question. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Okay. So how do you end up back with Andy. How does that happen?

Jen [00:49:51] Yeah. Like I was saying, we. You mean, like, after. I'm trying to think, like, I moved out to Utah.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] Yeah.

Jen [00:49:57] So I spent two years in Utah and realized I really hated Mormons. I was like, what? Mormons? But maybe just you. I just hated Utah. I was like, where have. What have. What have I done? Like, well, this place is crazy. I just thought it would be, like, heaven on earth.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] Wow.

Jen [00:50:15] You know? Yeah. All Mormons doing the right thing and being kind and honest, and it's like

John Dehlin [00:50:21] Ela coming to us.

Jen [00:50:22] I. Oh, 100%. It was anything but. Yeah. My landlord screwed me over and tried to, like. Oh, yes. Yeah, My landlord. Like, I tried to rent my place out so I can move in with my friends after my first semester. And. And I kept paying for both places. And then meanwhile, I was sending people over to, like, go see my apartment, and then they would never call me back. And I was like, what's going on? So one time I met someone there, and the landlord had put someone in my place, but it was also charging me. I ended up having to, like, take him to small claims court.

Jen [00:50:52] And they were just like. I'm like, you guys should be good people. You should be honest. Like, I was so thrown off. You're like, wait, you're Mormon, though, right? Right. Like, I was so thrown off and confused. Yeah. Like, are we really doing. Are you. Are you. Like, I was just so bizarre and just, you know, go to parties and guys are, like, grabbing your butt and you're. I'm like, what in. What is happening? I mean, I didn't mind it, but I. I didn't expect it. Like, I was. Yeah.

Jen [00:51:21] It was just weird. People drinking at parties and you go into church on Sunday and they're, like, passing the sacrament and. Yeah. Kind of that same thing as, like, high school. I'm going to. I'm confused. Like, you actually don't have to live it to present that you live it. Like, that kind of cognitive dissonance of, like, understanding that. Oh, people aren't actually necessarily good people.

Jen [00:51:45] They're just presenting in a pretty beautiful way. Right. Split self. Yeah. And I just. I couldn't really get on board with that. Yeah. So I'm like. I just wouldn't. I wouldn't have even known how to do that. Really.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] Yeah.

Jen [00:52:00] So. So not a great fit. You. I was not a great fit. Yeah. I spent two years here, and two of my sisters ended up coming out at some point. At one point. And staying. Of course, that made it so much better for me. Love my sister so much. We had so much more fun once they came out here. And I had good roommates, really great roommates. So we had a lot of fun, but the whole overall. Once Andy came to visit me and apparently one of our neighbors, like, told me on us and the bishop showed up at like 11 o' clock at night.

Jen [00:52:31] One said, we were like, what are you doing here? And he's like, oh, just stopping by to say, you know, hi. And someone had told that Andy was, like, staying at our place and just weird stuff like that. But my roommates were wonderful. Some just, yeah, just like, this is bizarre. Aren't you a grown man with her family? Like, I was. So, yeah, just say, why are you here? Just say why you're here. Don't just not, like, play games, you know? But anyway, Andy and I were separate for a year when I moved out here. We. I was like, we can't talk anymore. I was just.

Jen [00:53:01] We were just so drawn to each other all the time. And whenever we were in the vicinity of each other, we were just drawn to each other. Like, we just couldn't. But I had shame over that because, like I said, I'd gone to college and kind of repented and tried to change up my life and dated Jay and. And then Angie and I would get back together and then it was like, we're having sex again. And I'm like, I wasn't supposed to do this again. Oh, I see. But I loved him. And it felt good and wonderful and beautiful and. And then we broke up again.

Jen [00:53:30] Then I moved to Utah, and so we didn't talk for like a year. And then one summer, that next summer, right before senior year in high in college, his mom got married and she wanted me to come out and be in the wedding. And so I was like, okay, well, it's been a year.

Jen [00:53:46] And so I did. And it was like the second we saw each other, it was like I had dated a few guys and stuff in Utah. Ish. And the second we saw each other, it was like, what are we doing? Why are we fighting this? Yeah. And I kind of made the decision then and there. I think I'd lived in Utah long enough to go, oh, I see. Like, Mormon guys aren't good guys any more so than any. Like, they are not better than any other guy. As a matter of fact, Andy's a better person than all these guys that I've dated or seeing or hung out with. Although I had some wonderful friends. But I just realized, like, okay. It's not everything it's been cracked up to be.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] Yeah.

Jen [00:54:29] And so when Andy and I got back together and we just had this connect, this instant connection, I just went. I actually don't really care if he's Mormon anymore. Yeah. Like, I want to be with him. Right. And I.

Jen [00:54:42] I'm gonna put aside, you know, that part of it and just see, like, he's the best person I know. He's the best young man or man I've ever met. Like, I don't know what else to say. And there's just this connection, and we. I just could not. So then we were, like, together again. But we were both still going to school. I was still out in Utah, and he was still in Portland, and so we just dated long distance. But the interesting thing is Andy got hurt in. In football. He played football and. And track. And ran track in college, and he got hurt really bad his junior year. So he was devastated. I mean, it was. His whole life was sports, and he was devastated.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] And kind of state.

Jen [00:55:26] No, Linfield. It's like a private college up near Portland. Yeah. And so he'd had a very difficult junior year, and that's the year we were separated. And I was kind of like, we can't talk or anything. I can't move on with. We're talking. And so he had done this all, you know, with his friends and stuff, but had, like, a really hard time, drank a lot, gotten not. He was not well. So we kind of got back together before our senior year.

Jen [00:55:53] I think he was ready for something. He needed something. And when he went back to school, he contacted the missionaries. Oh, yeah, I see. He had actually contacted. He had met with the missionaries once before. Freshman year. Yep. But he just had no. He's like, man, I don't. Doesn't. Not sitting well with me. It's not, like, working for me. It's fine, you know? And so when he did it this time, I think he was. Was desperately needing something to give his life meaning.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] Yep.

Jen [00:56:23] So we kind of started meeting with them casually. And then in November of that year, we got engaged. We were both home for Thanksgiving, and he proposed. And so we got engaged. And I was like, maybe someday we'll go to the temple, but if not, I don't care. I love you.

Falling in Love and Getting Married

Jen [00:56:43] And this is what. I love you. I don't. I can't just keep denying that. I don't know. It's hard to explain where my head was, because on the way home from our engagement, we were up at a park. We were driving home, and I had this feeling come over me, and it was so vivid, and it was like, my heart hurts so much. And I thought, oh, maybe I'm doing the wrong thing.

Jen [00:57:08] And I just started sobbing. And he was like, what's wrong? And I was like, I'm just happy. I can't really remember what I said. And for the longest time, I thought, the spirit is telling me that I shouldn't marry Andy.

Jen [00:57:24] But I look back now and I'm like, no. I missed my mom. I was engaged. And I had this, like, most beautiful moment of my life. And I was, like, utterly alone. That's how it felt. Because I was like, I want my mom here.

Jen [00:57:38] Yeah. And it just, like, it broke my heart so deeply. Yeah. And I. Because I'd never felt the grief. That's right. This moment where it popped up. And I thought, I'm feeling really, really, really hurt. And this must be the spirit telling me that I shouldn't be doing this. Oh, goodness. Yeah. But I was like. I was like, I'm gonna do it anyway because I love him and I don't know what else. This is all I know to do, because I will never love anybody else like this. I've dated other people. We've gone our other ways, and I love him.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Mormon boys suck.

Jen [00:58:09] Mormon boys suck. I had a roommate who had a really good friend who came over. She was anorexic, Hair was falling out, she was so thin. And we were. Tried to talk to her about it, and she said, well, my fiance says he likes the waif look, so I have to keep this up. And I was like, I mean, that. That was just. I know. Obviously, I know all Mormon guys are not like that, and there are wonderful Mormon guys out there, but my experience was not good.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] I mean, you know, I'm.

Jen [00:58:39] Yeah, you were. You got lucky enough to snag Margi. That was just pure luck, I think. No, I.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] Just kidding.

Jen [00:58:47] But I. And I know. And I had some good. Really good guy friends out there who I adored. So it was just kind of just a weird. Well, I feel like you were getting respect, like, for yourself from someone, which. And it sounds like. Well, I experienced this too, at BW Idaho, but you feel a lot like an object with the men around you. And I'm. I haven't gone to Provo, but I'm guessing from you telling your story, it's that similar vibe. Yeah. Provo in the 90s is probably very similar to, like, Rexburg now, you know. Right. Like, late 90s is like.

Jen [00:59:23] Yeah. And that I thank you for saying that because I. I would be in Provo and I would. I felt like the ugliest girl around. You know, I'm like a. I wear a size 8 and I'm like, I don't really do makeup and I've got brown hair and it's frizzy and.

Jen [00:59:36] And I just never felt like. I never felt good or attractive. But then I would go visit Andy and I would feel so good. Not necessarily because, I mean, I just. I loved Andy, but I felt so good about myself. I look just like everyone else. No one cared.

Jen [00:59:51] Everyone was kind. Like, no one looked overlooked you because you weren't style or thin enough or whatever. Like, I just felt so good when I would go visit him and be on their campus. Yeah. And. Yeah, you felt like. Well, and he loved you for you.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] Yeah.

Jen [01:00:07] I was gonna say you're a whole person. Yeah. And you're with this person also who it sounds like has witnessed your becoming for. For years. Totally. And me him. Right. We kind of grown up. I mean, we were still very young and he knew my mom and my family. I mean, my sisters were like, yeah. 9, 10, 9, 11, 13 when we started dating. They're like his little sisters and his family the same. His little siblings were like. We were like sibling. They're like our family. Yeah. Yeah. So. But your life and you as a multi layered. It feels like you were real to him.

Jen [01:00:47] And you can feel that with someone when you're real versus someone's trying to do an overlay of like who you can be for me. Right. Do you meet the checklist of who you could be for me, My use for you? Yeah. Really different. And I was. We both, when we came back together, were grateful for our time apart. You know, he'd kind of tried to date other people and I had tried to date other people. I think I'd probably had a little bit more success than him. But we both learned things like, oh, I like that Andy is this way. Or I like that I feel good.

Jen [01:01:15] Or even for me, like when I dated Jay, I learned a lot about emotional intimacy and friendship. And I was like, oh, me and Andy can be friends. So we both learned a lot in our time away from each other as we kind of came and went from each other's lives during the college years. But yeah, I felt like I brought something back and he brought things back. What he'd learned about wanting to, you know. And so we brought a lot of maturity together. I mean, we were immature. We were, you know, 22 years old when we got married, so we were still obviously very young, but we kind of separated and come back together and brought some things that we learned about relationships.

Jen [01:01:50] I love that, too, because then, you know, who you're in relationship with can grow or values growing if you can bring things and they're open and adapt. Yeah, I think that's a. That's a key component. Yeah. And I. I feel so grateful. Looking back on our relationship, of course, my whole entire Mormon life, it was like there was a lot of shame on our relationship and through our marriage and thinking like, well, if things go wrong, I know why. It's because we had sex before we were married, and we did all these things that we weren't supposed to do. So when things go wrong, well, I deserve that.

Jen [01:02:23] You know, that was. I had a lot of that. But looking back now, I'm like, I'm so grateful that we grew and we changed and we came together and we went apart and we. You're right. Like, we allowed each other to change, and we still found this connection, this love that we had for each other, even more so as we grew and experienced life a little bit and things like that. And we both always have said how grateful we are that we kind of had that time that we spent apart in college, because it was like, we're not just together. Like, we. We are choosing each other at this point in getting married.

Jen [01:02:55] And I'm choosing him. I mean, that was a big deal for me because he wasn't Mormon. That's right. You know, But I was like, I choose him. I guess I choose him over the church. I didn't know how else to think of it, but there was shame there.

Jen [01:03:08] But to me, I look back and I'm just like, I am so grateful for that girl and that she listened to her heart, and that wasn't easy to do, but I'm so grateful. I'm grateful that she was still there and still brave enough to make a decision and follow her heart.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] You know, so far, that's a really unique part of your story relative to other people that we interview with almost 2,000 episodes. Just that. But most people kind of, like, just. Just come by honestly denying their inner voice and just always prioritizing the Mormon narrative and the Mormon priorities. And it sounds like you were more willing than most to listen to your voice and to follow it.

Jen [01:03:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] That's actually more on the rare side.

Jen [01:03:55] Yeah. And very brave.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jen [01:03:59] And that's why I look back on her, and I think, like, Because I will lose her more and more as my story goes on. But those times, the places where I held so much shame as a true believing, devout Mormon, is now where I celebrate who I was and how grateful I am that I had the courage to make those decisions which will also eventually lead me out. But, you know, as a Mormon, there was shame around those decisions. Decisions. So it was a very, like, complex thing for me, you know, to kind of hold both those things. True. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:32] The church has that teaching of the natural man, which I'm sure you applied as a natural woman.

Jen [01:04:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] But that's just all about deny your inner voice. Now. I think about that now, sort of. I mean, I also think they're human tendencies that are more primitive than.

Jen [01:04:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:49] Sophisticated or enlightened. So part of it is. Yeah. Becoming more civilized, that natural man, woman thing. But part of it is just conditioning to deny your inner voice, I think.

Jen [01:05:02] Yeah, yeah. And just. I mean, all the shame around the natural. I mean, that's just such a. It's such a terrible teaching, you know, that everything you want. And just like those guys that you interviewed recently has saying how like. Well, yeah, that's natural man. You don't. That's all the things that you. And I'm like, no, it's like your heart and your soul and your spirit. Yeah. Of course, you don't give into every single thing you want, but if no one's being harmed, like, things can be beautiful and you can be curious and you can learn things and you can say, well, that's not for me, or I really love that, or that's what you're really supposed to do, you know, that's right.

Jen [01:05:34] There can. Like, it's. There's a place for curiosity, there's a place for wonder, there's a place for learning about yourself. Experimenting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you're taught the natural man is an enemy to God, you just lose yourself. It's conforming. Constantly conform. Yeah. So, yeah, that's why I just think it's really brave. You just listen to yourself. Yes. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] Yeah. So you need to get married.

Jen [01:06:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] So not in the temple.

Jen [01:06:04] Not in the temple. So senior year, we're engaged.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] He's not a member yet.

Jen [01:06:07] He. So we're. He's engaged. We're engaged senior year and he's going through the discussions with the missionaries his senior year and.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] You mean college.

Jen [01:06:15] College, yes. He's up in Portland still, and I'm in Utah still, and we just see each other a couple times throughout that time and he wants to get. He's going to get baptized, but he wants me to be there. So he waits until he graduates and we both come home for summer. So he's baptized in mid June, and then we get married about, like, nine days later. Yeah. Okay. So we were there. I was. Got to be there. And I will say those nine days were very difficult because he was fresh and new and pretty perfect. And I was like, we can't have sex in nine days.

Jen [01:06:47] And, I mean, I'm just. I'm a very physical person. Yeah, my parents were super affectionate. Very physically affectionate, obviously. Very. I mean, we'd be like, you guys get a room. Which is what my kids say a lot to me, you know? But, like, I. My parents. It's just how we were raised to be very affectionate. And I think it's just part of my nature. I'm very affectionate. Yeah.

Jen [01:07:10] So Andy and I have always had a very strong, like, physical connection. So it was like, I don't think we can see each other for nine days because you have to get baptized, and I'm already bad and dirty and marked. But you're perfect now, so. Yes, he got baptized, and then we got married.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] So did you make those?

Jen [01:07:29] We made it. Okay. I'll just say that we made it. Barely. Wow. The stress of that. Oh, I can't even tell you. Like, literally, one day, we were, like, sitting on the couch, and I was like, I think I need to leave. You know? And he's like, what is going on? I was like, you're gonna jump your bones. Like, I just. I can't even, like, be around you. And I. And again, he was making me perfect. I know. I'm sorry, honey. But this is another thing, too, of, like, feeling very responsible for another person's purity. I mean, can you imagine? I had loved Andy for so long at that point.

Jen [01:08:00] I mean, it felt so long. And the fact that he was Mormon, I mean, could I. It was, like, something that I was willing to give up for him. And then it was happening. Of course, the narrative around it was like, a lot of my believing friends and family were like, he's just doing this for you. Like, this is not real. You sh. You need to lie. And I just. I believed in Andy, and I was like, I wasn't a requirement when I said yes to marrying him. I was not. Yeah. Saying, you have to get baptized at all. Right. And he did it on his own.

Jen [01:08:33] And I believe Andy's not the kind of person that is going to do it if he doesn't believe it. That's just who I believe he was. Yeah. You know, I saw him as such a wonderful. And he's good person, which he is. And I just thought. I don't think he'd fake this, you know? Yeah. So. But I got a lot of pushback, for sure. People saying, like, this won't last.

Jen [01:08:53] He won't stay, you know, And I was like, it doesn't. That actually doesn't really matter to me. I just love him, you know? Thanks for your good wishes for our new relationship. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't easy, but another part of me just kind of having, like, making the decision from my heart was like, this is what my heart feels is right. Yeah. And I had gone with that enough times to just be like, I don't know how else to do it any other way, really, you know?

John Dehlin [01:09:21] So India or Provo. Boys.

Jen [01:09:23] Yes. Yep. Exactly. Or single life forever. Yeah. So we got married. Yeah. June 20, 1998.

John Dehlin [01:09:31] And then sealed a year later.

Jen [01:09:34] Yep. Yep. So we moved. He graduated, and we moved to Portland area. Gig harbor, actually, which is up near Seattle. He had a job offer up there, so we moved up there and kind of changed our lives, you know, we were like, okay, we got to get to the temple. What do we need to do to get to the temple?

Jen [01:09:53] Pay our tithing. I never really paid tithing growing up. Yeah. I remember specifically my mom once talking about how she had a tithing recommend interview or tithing. What were they called? Like, settlement. Yeah, tithing settlement. And how she had to write a check, you know, for like $9,000 or something, and how it just gutted her because we had no money, but it was like, that's what she had to do. And she was just like, I don't feel right about giving this money, but I.

Jen [01:10:21] So I kind of remember they never made us pay tithing. They had paid it, but we never, you know, so paying tithing. We were like, we cannot watch Radar movies anymore. And we didn't. Well, he drank in college, but I didn't really drink, so we didn't drink. We just did all the things. We just became Mormon, you know?

Jen [01:10:40] And we loved being married so much. I mean, we had. We were just, like, playing. It was like our dream. It was such a dream. So this interesting, interesting thing happened, though, like, a couple weeks after we got married, and we moved up into our place in Gig harbor, and we started going to church, the ward.

Jen [01:10:56] And I wasn't taking the sacrament. I mean, I'd had sex Before I was married, and I didn't feel right about taking the sacrament. I hadn't at that point ever, like, done any confessional or bishop meeting. I was still, like, not good. But Andy was good, of course, because he'd been baptized, so he was fine. And I guess the bishop must have noticed I wasn't taking the sacrament. We just. So is this a form of self punishment? Yes.

John Dehlin [01:11:18] Oh.

Jen [01:11:19] Because, I mean, I hadn't repented since then. Right. Like, I.

John Dehlin [01:11:23] Because you had that privy bishop in high school.

Jen [01:11:25] Yes, but I had repented, like, at the. At certain places in the time. But then we'd mess up again. And then the last time we messed up, we were getting engaged and getting married. And so I just was like, I'm not worthy to partake of the sacrament. And since I. Since, you know, during that whole time we were engaged and we got married, I still hadn't ever repented of what I'd done. And so I still didn't feel like I could take the sacrament. But it was very confusing to me because I'm like, but Andy's taking the sacrament. This feels weird. And we're married now. Yeah. Right. So never.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] Mormon sacraments, like communion every week, the bread and the water as part of a Sunday church.

Jen [01:12:02] Yeah. And so I think we'd just been there two or three weeks, and the bishop called me in for an interview and is like, I can't remember exactly how it went. If he said, like, I've noticed you're not taking the sacrament. Do we need to. Would you like to talk about something? And I said, well, I mean, Andy and I have only been married for, like, three weeks, but we had sex, like, up until he got baptized. And he was like, you know, I think you're good.

Jen [01:12:25] You're married now. Like, you put your time in, like, it's all good. And I was like, what? It's all like. So I didn't even really need to repent any of those times and have all that shame and guilt. I'm just. I'm good now. Just married. I'm married. You're good now.

Jen [01:12:41] And I was like, whoa, Wow. I mean, I was so grateful for him because it was such a blessing in the moment, but it was very confusing.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] Well, you learned from your friend in high school that if you don't tell the truth.

Jen [01:12:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:53] You got rewarded.

Jen [01:12:53] Yeah, I got rewarded for telling the truth, like, the first time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] No, you got rewarded for hiding it.

Jen [01:12:57] Oh, for. Yeah, for not confessing.

John Dehlin [01:13:00] Yeah, exactly.

Jen [01:13:01] Yeah. But I mean, I was honest still. I told her. She was honest. Yeah, I was honest. I told him, like, I'm not partaking because I'd had. I have sex before I was married, and I've repented of it, like, two or three times before.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] Weren't you expecting to get punished for all the years you were sinning?

Jen [01:13:17] Well, I was.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] Yeah.

Jen [01:13:18] I was expected to have to, like, go through a repentance process. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] I mean, that's what I mean.

Jen [01:13:23] Yeah. I mean, I was expecting to have to be like, okay, well, let's meet together. Let's talk about. Let's do the repentance. Let's make amends. Let's. I guess you don't have to, like, commit to not doing it again because now you're married. So I. He. But he was just like, you're good. The wedding clenched you. Yeah. Yeah. That was your baptism. Your sexual baptism. Yeah. Yep. So. But it was. I was like, interesting. So. No, that wasn't. It didn't even matter.

John Dehlin [01:13:47] It just shows. They want you getting married and having kids.

Jen [01:13:49] Once you're doing that, nothing else matters. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] It's all. It's all to get. You didn't have a baby.

Jen [01:13:55] Yes. That's obviously what it meant, and I saw that in my mind's eye. But of course, just put it out of my mind because I was very grateful that now Andy and I were on equal playing fields and I was worthy again.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] Yeah.

Jen [01:14:07] So. But that wasn't really like a. Definitely, like a marker moment of me going, I'm all good now, and thinking it was really weird, but I just went with it, you know?

Temple Marriage and Early Married Life

John Dehlin [01:14:19] So your outline has you having four, four or five kids between 98 and 2007, is that right?

Jen [01:14:25] Yep. Well, Ryan was born in 2000. Yes. We got married in 1998. Ryan was born in 2000. I showed up. She was almost beautiful. First baby you could imagine.

John Dehlin [01:14:36] Y2K baby.

Jen [01:14:37] Yes, it's true. It's true. I'm not biased. She was so stunningly beautiful. And the thing is, it's just like, I'd loved Andy for so long, and we were young, and I knew it was like, this stuff doesn't work out, high school romance, you know, but we were just so happy. We just, like, were loving being married, and we got to have Ryan, I got to have Andy's baby, and we got to create a child together, and we were very happy. I mean, having a baby was terrifying. Neither we were like, what do we do with this thing? Like, crying, like, we were so. We were children, you know, my mom had passed away. I'm the oldest girl. None of my siblings have had children. It wasn't like Andy's mom was not good. We were on our own.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] Wow.

Jen [01:15:26] Yep. My dad and my stepmom came up, and they were helpful for, you know, a few days, but, like, this was our life now. We were just children. We had no idea what we were doing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:35] Julia wants to know they. If the temple was weird for you guys or not really. Oh, when you went through.

Jen [01:15:40] You know what? I thought about that a lot. And I think me mentioning, like, how much I just loved Andy. Like, I just loved him so much. I think we both were, like, so deeply in love that all I cared about is that I was there with Andy. And so I wasn't really paying that close attention to what was being said. And so I was just like. People had said, like, it's a little bit weird here and there, and I didn't. I just kind of, like, went through it in a Hate, just staring at Andy the whole time like, I can't believe I'm in the temple with Andy.

Jen [01:16:10] Yeah. You know, like, and also my mom, when she went to the temple, I went with. I went with them because I was three, so I was sealed to them. And it's actually in my. For my. My earliest memory is being in the temple. And I remember thinking that, like, we were in heaven because everyone. Everyone was old with white hair, and they were all wearing white, and I thought we were in heaven. That's, like, my memory of it. Yeah. But she wrote a whole journal entry. My mom was, like, an avid journal writer. Like, tons of journals. We have full of her writings. Yeah.

Jen [01:16:42] Which is such a gift. But she wrote specifically about the temple and about how she couldn't wait to be there. Yeah. So, I mean, at the time, it was my brother and me, and I was her only daughter.

Jen [01:17:00] And in the journal entry, it was like, we'll be in the bride room together someday, and, you know, you'll be the most beautiful bride that's ever existed. And so even though she wasn't there, it was just like, I'm where my mom was. Right. And I'm with the person I love more than anything in the world, you know?

Jen [01:17:22] And so I think I was just happy to be there. Yeah. That's the way I see it now. And I was like, yeah, that was weird. But I am so happy.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] Yeah.

Jen [01:17:31] You know, like, I just. That's. That's it. So, yeah, I hear a lot of people's things, and I'm like, gosh how did I not recognize? But also, I loved Andy so much that when they said, like, you know, you commit to your husband, who commits to God, I trusted Andy so much so that that didn't really bother me that much. Yeah. So

John Dehlin [01:17:50] were you all married? And did y'.

Jen [01:17:52] All.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Were y' all endowed and sealed on the same day?

Jen [01:17:55] No. So we were endowed, like, one week, one year after Annie got baptized, and we did that up in Seattle, and then we got sealed one week later because then that was like a year after our wedding. And we did that in Oakland, which was where my parents were sealed. We went down to Oakland. Okay. So, I mean, we had no family in the temple. It was just us and a few friends, because none of my family could go in the temple. Was my dad there? I honestly can't even remember. I want to say he was or wasn't. I can't remember. But again, didn't matter. Because it didn't matter. We just sat there and held each other's hand and stared into each other's eyes, and I just. I think I just couldn't believe it.

John Dehlin [01:18:41] Yeah.

Jen [01:18:42] I think I just was like, this is. How am I the luckiest girl in the world? You know? And so we just were, like, happy, beyond happy. And I was pregnant with Ryan at that time. I was, like, eight weeks pregnant, and I knew I was pregnant, so, yeah, it just felt like all my dreams were coming true. That's right. Yeah. A lot. Yeah. I was very happy, and we just were happy being together. We were very happy being married. And. Yeah. I mean, I was sad that none of my family members could be there and my sisters and everyone was outside the temple. You know, it was like, oh, why can't they just come in? But mostly I was just focused on me and Andy. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy's Pornography Struggle Comes to Light

John Dehlin [01:19:24] So the next thing you have in your outline is, like, nine years after your marriage where Andy confronts a problem.

Jen [01:19:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:33] Is that next? Is that next?

Jen [01:19:35] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:37] Between. For those nine years, you're just living the Mormon dream.

Jen [01:19:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:19:40] Having babies, four kids again.

Jen [01:19:42] His career and a lots of kids. Building his career. Yeah. We had moved to Vancouver, Washington. My fourth child, Cali, who I thought was my last, she was just a few months old. Nine months old, maybe. And Andy has. Is out with a kid somewhere, and he had left his phone at home, and his phone dings a few times, and I. I honestly would never have even looked or. I had no suspicions. We were very happy. I never had a suspicion whatsoever that anything was wrong. And I picked up the phone and saw like the text that was like on the screen and it was something very pornographic from someone to him. And I was like, what? I just.

John Dehlin [01:20:33] From a living human?

Jen [01:20:34] Yes, yes, Yep, from a living human. And so I opened his phone. We had, we could get into each other's phones. It was never secretive. And I found this text exchange between him and a person that he'd met at a work conference. She lived somewhere else, but they had met once a year or two prior.

Jen [01:20:54] And it was, yeah, an exchange between the two of them. Just very well what I thought then. Very pornographic, you know. And I mean, my whole world, like, fell out of underneath me, literally. I, I, I, I'd never experienced something like that before. I was utterly devastated.

Jen [01:21:19] I called or he came home and I walked outside and I said, you need to take the kids over to my friend's house, Amy. Take my, take the kids over to Amy's house and then come back. And he was like, is everything okay? And I was like, no.

Jen [01:21:32] So he took the kids over to her house and came back and we spent. Yeah, he just confessed everything to me that he had looked at pornography a couple years prior and felt so much shame. It was like, I'm not going to do that ever again. And then slowly and surely he would look at it more and more and more.

Jen [01:21:52] And it was all because I was like, it was all free online stuff because I never saw any money come through or anything like that, you know, and that he met this person, this girl at a work conference and then she kind of became an outlet for that as a person, you know, it's like talking and texting and stuff like that and emailing and.

Jen [01:22:13] But yeah, yeah, so, I mean, that was pretty earth shattering. That was, yeah, I can, up until that point, the most earth shattering thing I'd ever experienced. So the few years prior to that, it was when the church just started like talking endlessly about pornography.

John Dehlin [01:22:32] Right.

Jen [01:22:32] And I became very afraid, as was probably the purpose of it. And it's going to destroy families. And it's Satan's main tool to destroy this earth and destroy your children and your spouse and your marriage and eternal families will be destroyed because of this. And not even once can you look at it. And obviously never masturbate and you know, all these things. And before where I, I was much more nuanced and not really afraid of that stuff. I kind of realized it was part of sexuality. But I became.

John Dehlin [01:23:02] Before marriage, you're saying, even before marriage,

Jen [01:23:05] but even during, like the beginning of the marriage. I mean, I think maybe Once we went to the temple, and just once the church started hammering, it was when I started to become very afraid of it and say, like, please don't ever do that. Like, we can't ever let our family. Yeah. Fall apart. Satan can use this to destroy us. And he was like, I would. I won't. You know, I think I had, like, a idea in my mind that, like, that's just for men who, like, aren't having good sex with their wives or aren't having sexual pleasure. And we just had such a healthy and wonderful sex life.

Jen [01:23:36] And. Yeah. I never imagined. I never, ever. I never. One, thought Andy would lie to me, and two, imagined that he would turn to something like that, you know? Right. So, I mean, there's a whole. A whole thing around that. I mean, it changed our lives. It changed our lives in a very big way. Yeah.

Jen [01:24:02] At some point, because Cali was young, and I needed to either. I can't remember if I was breastfeeding her or what, but I was like, I have to go pick up the kids. So I went to my friend Amy's house and picked up the kids. And when I came back and he was on the phone, and he had called the bishop, and I was like, that. I found great peace in that. I was like, okay, he isn't trying to keep this a secret anymore. He doesn't want to keep it a secret, and he's doing it on his own. He's making this step, you know?

Jen [01:24:30] And my friend Amy is interesting. Happened when she. When I picked up the kid, she said to me, like, are you okay? And I was like, no. And she's like, well, have you prayed? And I remember thinking, what a weird thing to ask me.

Jen [01:24:42] Like, I don't even know if I believe in that anymore. Like, everything that I held to and loved and believed in with my whole entire heart, which was my marriage and my spouse and my family. Yeah. It all just crumbled underneath me. I don't think I even believe in prayer at this moment. Like, I didn't know what to believe in.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Right.

Jen [01:25:00] You know, like, it was just so disorienting and so out of the blue. So he and the bishop ended up calling us in for an interview. Like, that night. Actually, it was the next day, and an interesting thing happened to that night. Andy was just so broken and sobbing and apologizing and, I'm so sorry. And.

Jen [01:25:21] And every question I asked, he would answer honestly. And so I found out more information, and he told me, like, all these things, and I felt like he was being honest at that point and he was like, I have wanted to tell you for so long and I'm. I have so much shame and I'm so much self hatred. And I was kind of feeling this sympathy for him, but I was like, no, no, no, no. Like, don't do that, you know.

Jen [01:25:45] Well, it was like 3 o' clock in the morning. We were sitting on the couch and he was crying still and I was kind of laying my head next to him. I was sitting on the floor and he was on the couch. I was laying my head next to his legs and I thought, maybe I do need to pray.

Jen [01:25:59] And like, I don't know how we're going to get through this. And I just said this little prayer, like, heavenly Father, please just help me. And I looked up at Andy in that moment and I saw, like a child.

Jen [01:26:11] And he was so broken. And Andy had a very, very hard childhood. Lots of abuse and trauma. And I just saw him as a little child. I saw a child and how broken he was. And in that moment I was like, I just forgave him.

Jen [01:26:30] But it didn't. It. I felt like I really forgave him because I saw him for what it was and I didn't have like the hatred towards him, but it didn't change like the pain or the. But I had that moment of seeing him as a child and realizing like, yeah, he's. He's reacting out of trauma, his own trauma and pain in some way here. I don't think I fully understood that, but I knew something that that mattered in some way. So we went and met with a bishop the next day. And the bishop called Andy in and then he called me in and I was getting ready to leave with the kids.

Jen [01:27:04] Like, leave Andy. My dad had flown up and he was going to drive back down. We were. I was going to take the kids and leave because I think I had told him, I will never stay with you if something like this happens.

Jen [01:27:19] Like, I will never. I could never. I could never get over it. Basically. Okay. Yeah. And so I felt like I had to hold to that. But something inside me was saying, like, don't leave him. Like, don't leave him right now. But I was like, I have to leave him, you know. So we're sitting with the bishop and the bishop said, I'm here for you. Like, you are my first priority. I've spoken with Andy and anything that you want, I support.

Jen [01:27:42] He said, but I have this really strong feeling that I almost don't want to tell you, but I'm going to say it anyway. I feel like you shouldn't leave. And of course I just sobbed. I was like, I've been feeling that same thing, like I shouldn't leave. I shouldn't leave him, but I don't think I can stay. And he was like, if you don't stay, I totally support that. I just. I felt that in my heart and I needed to tell you that.

Jen [01:28:07] So I told my dad, I think I'm gonna stay and try to figure out something and work this through. So my dad flew home and Andy and I. And I stayed. Well, I'm so glad I did because eventually with he. Once he started going to therapy and it was pretty intense therapy. I mean, he was talking about healing. He was healing childhood trauma. He would come home and sit on the floor in our bedroom and sob for hours over childhood things that he was confronting.

Jen [01:28:40] The only. The sad thing for me though is that I never got therapy, you know, for his pornography addiction, which, I mean, again, they created a problem because he felt so much shame and self hatred that it turned into a problem, in my opinion now. But at the time, you know, I didn't get any therapy, just he did.

John Dehlin [01:29:04] Right.

Jen [01:29:04] And I was so alone. I didn't want to tell anybody. And I actually told my dad knew, obviously. But my dad said kind of the same thing that I experienced where he's like, I wanted to kill him. And I got up there and I saw his face and all I had was sympathy for him. Like, I could see that he was sorry and that. So, I mean, my dad kind of had that same experience. And I told my sisters. My sisters have always just been my best friends. But other than that, I had no one to talk to. Yeah, too much shame to talk to anybody friend. I mean, you're just. It's such a lonely. It was very lonely experience and hard to really explain to anybody what you were experiencing as a woman. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:52] So I have a question that's kind of delicate and don't answer anything you don't want to. I'm sure there are going to be version listeners thinking you're going to leave him over pornography.

Jen [01:30:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] So I mean, part of the question is, wait, was it just pornography or were there other factors?

Jen [01:30:09] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:30:10] But also, I don't want you to disclose anything you don't want to disclose. Or maybe it was all pornography. So, yeah, answer that however you wish.

Jen [01:30:17] Yeah. I mean, there's some things that are private I don't want to talk about in that way. But yeah, I mean, he'd been. So he'd been talking to another woman privately. So. But, but even that was just wrapped up in it to me.

John Dehlin [01:30:27] Yeah.

Jen [01:30:27] You know, there had been like pictures sent back and forth and things like. So it was pornography. But that alone would have been enough for me to feel totally betrayed.

John Dehlin [01:30:37] Okay, so. Okay.

Jen [01:30:38] Because I was like, like what? The message from the church. I mean, I don't know if you guys remember, but like late 90s, early 2000s, it was, it was like, yes, it is. It still is, I guess. But back then was when it started and it was intense. It was terrifying. The message that they were giving out, it was terrifying. Right. One look and it was like, oh my gosh. And Andy heard that same message. So he'd look once and there was so much shame. He's like, I wanted to tell you, but I, I so embarrassed. I hated myself. I knew I wouldn't do it again.

Jen [01:31:10] And then pretty soon I'm doing it and like I'm such a bad person. And the self hatred, you know, that he experienced the shame. Like, I mean, can I say? Yeah, please do. I remember being a missionary and having conversations with other missionaries about like future husbands and it's that conversation of if they've ever looked at pornography, they're off the table. Right. So it's very much something that's hounded into you at byu, Idaho, on the mission. I mean, it's part of the discussion. So it's just there's so much shame there. And the sad thing is, is what? All that does is make people lie. Yes. Right. And secrecy is where shame bleed like, and each other within a relationship. I don't know, it just seemed so

John Dehlin [01:31:58] those mystery companions weren't necessarily marrying men who had never looked at pornography. They were marrying men who just lied.

Jen [01:32:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:04] Yeah.

Jen [01:32:06] But the sad thing is like those men hate themselves for lying.

John Dehlin [01:32:09] Exactly.

Jen [01:32:10] I mean. No, Andy did. So they're being eaten. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:32:13] But also they're learning to hide and lie and have a double life and all that.

Jen [01:32:17] Yeah. And the secrecy leads to, to addiction and like those types of things. Because then the shame and the self hatred, then you're just doing it anyway. Then like then you. It's all. That's right. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] Yeah. Not to be pro porn. That's not the point.

Jen [01:32:31] Right, sure.

John Dehlin [01:32:32] It's just the way the church handles porn.

Jen [01:32:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:35] Creates this massive problem that would not even be nearly as big of a deal if people, if it just mental health professionals dealt with this in healthy, normal, evidence based ways. Right.

Jen [01:32:47] 100%. Yeah. For sure. So when Andy had therapy, he sought therapy. Right. Was it through the church or was it. It was church. Church. It was church. But I will say she was amazing.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] Good luck.

Jen [01:33:04] She was a fat. Yes. We got so lucky. And I didn't really know what to expect. And neither one of us had ever been through therapy very unfortunately. To think about what we'd been through in our lives up to that point, the fact that she went straight to his childhood. Like, I was like, going, wait, what? But what about the pornography? You know, like. And she's like, let's go back. And then she started healing and addressing things which obviously are at the base of addiction and shame and self hatred. And.

Jen [01:33:33] And there was one time where I was looking through some of Annie's emails and discovered an email where she had sent Andy a picture. And it was. I mean it again, like, I can't even explain, like, the way that shatters a person, you know? And especially just.

Jen [01:33:50] I don't know, I guess everyone loves their spouse. I just love Andy so much, and I just couldn't even imagine that he would do that. And I called her because I didn't know who else to call. And I was like, I don't know what to do, but I think I'm gonna die. Like, I don't think I can. I think I'm not gonna make it through this.

John Dehlin [01:34:05] Yeah.

Jen [01:34:05] And she said, come and see me. And she sat me down. And I was. One of the things that came up was me saying, like, I'm so confused because do I have sex with him? And then is that going to make him think of pornography? Do I withhold sex? Because then that's going to make him feel deprived and look towards pornography. Like, what do I do to make this addiction?

John Dehlin [01:34:29] Or should you be punishing him by withholding?

Jen [01:34:31] That's what I mean. Should be punishing him. Should I be. So, wait, is this an addiction model treatment? Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. For sure. Porn addiction. Yes. 12 step program immediately was recommended. And she was, you know, she was separate, but a kind of a thing that was happening then was like, Andy.

Jen [01:34:47] Andy's job was kind of changing. So it was. We had some kind of things going on there, but she helped me understand, which was so beautiful and valuable. She said, if you want to have sex with him, have sex with him. If you don't, absolutely don't, nothing you do is gonna make him or not make him look at pornography. It has nothing to do anything you've done or not done. Yes. That's huge. That was everything to me.

Jen [01:35:14] It really flies in the face of that responsibility piece. Oh, my gosh, our feelings. So I felt like I was not in sex enough. Or maybe we had sex too much. Or maybe, I mean, I just was like, she freed me and gave me that information, which was so beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] Were you ever tempted to blame yourself?

Jen [01:35:34] Oh, all the time. I always was blaming myself. I was looking at my body. I was looking at. I don't wear makeup. I was looking at that. I'm not again. We had sex before we were married. If I'm being honest. That was one of the very pervasive thoughts in my head those early sin. Something like this was going to happen. This is the kind of thing I deserve. We. I had sex before I was married. And these are the kind of marriages you get when you have sex before you're married. That's. Honestly, I believe, like, this was like a pun. This was like a. A consequence of that.

John Dehlin [01:36:01] When like apostles, children are doing it too. Oh.

Jen [01:36:03] I mean, I had no idea. They all, you know, I. I had no.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] Or worse.

Jen [01:36:07] Yeah, yeah. I just thought, yeah, this makes sense. Yes. For me, maybe this is what I deserve.

John Dehlin [01:36:16] Kind of, you know, seeing what he was Attract, what features he appeared.

Jen [01:36:20] Oh, absolutely, Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And never, I mean, I, you know, I was like, should I get a boob job? Should I lose weight? Should I. I mean, I don't. It was like, wear makeup. Yeah, wear makeup. Exactly. Like, I. Yeah. But when she said that, it gave me permission to just be myself and because in those moments when Andy was so broken and fragile, like, I was feeling intimacy towards him. I was feeling like, I want to, like, hold you and have, like, intimacy to see with you. Yeah. But then I was like, I don't think I should, because what if that makes you think so when she did that.

Jen [01:36:57] Yeah. Should I let you have that? Because. But he was so low that I. I wasn't necessarily feeling about. Worried about punishing him at that point because, yeah, he was punishing himself enough for both of us. I mean, he was so low.

Jen [01:37:14] He was so. There was so much self hatred that I saw that I. I had a lot of sympathy for him in those moments.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] That's one of the most pernicious things about, like, the Jodi Hildebrandt treatment for pornography addiction, where she tells the wife, kick him out of the bed. Now he has to sleep in the office. And not only no sex for as long as it takes for him to cure his addiction, but no hugging and even no emotionally intimate conversations.

Jen [01:37:42] It's so devastating.

John Dehlin [01:37:43] I mean, imagine what that could have done to Andy.

Jen [01:37:46] I think. I don't think he would have made it. I don't think he would have made. I think he would have taken his life.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] And that's happened.

Jen [01:37:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:52] I can just say that's happened.

Jen [01:37:55] And that's why I look back on that moment where the bishop says, I feel like you should stay. And he's like, I almost want to apologize for saying that, because you don't. You don't owe him that. But I'm just having this feeling. And I was so grateful he said that because I'm so grateful I stayed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] I think for liability reasons, the church discourages bishops from weighing in on something like that.

Jen [01:38:15] And maybe that's why. And he was a brand new bishop, and he was like, I don't even know what I'm doing. But I was grateful that he felt just as a human being to say that to me.

John Dehlin [01:38:26] Yeah.

Jen [01:38:26] And that I was willing to kind of again, put maybe my pride aside a little bit and say, yeah, I've actually been feeling that too. And I think I need to stay. I mean, Andy and I talk about to this day, like, I wonder if I would have left if we would have ever. I don't think we would have ever gotten back together. We needed those moments. And I'm grateful for it. And I'm. And not to say that it ended. It was.

John Dehlin [01:38:50] I mean, what ended?

Jen [01:38:51] Like, the anger, the fighting, the jealousy, the hurt, the mistrust, the. And the other thing, the therapy the therapist helped me realize, which I also appreciate because I told her about the experience I had where I saw him as a child, and I was like. I felt like I forgave him in that moment. Why am I still angry? Why do I still not trust him? Why do I. Why am I still struggling so deeply, you know, with what happened? And she said, well, forgiveness and trust are like two totally, completely different things. You can forgive someone for, like, the act, but, like, there's all this other stuff.

Jen [01:39:24] There's the lying and the. And she's like. And also, like, trust just has to be rebuilt. And at some point, that's a decision you get to make if you want to rebuild it. Right. And if you feel like there's safety in rebuilding the trust, then that's on you to decide. But just because you can forgive someone and not choose to trust or move forward with them, that's different. Two different things, you know, which also really helped me a lot. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I also think Too. It's the anger piece. Sometimes we only think about grief and loss with, like, someone dies.

Working Through Betrayal and Healing the Marriage

Jen [01:39:57] But I think there are moments where you lose other things or you're grieving other things, and anger is part of that, you know, loss process. Right. And so it can show up anytime. You're actually in a process of loss of some sort. Yeah. And I think, because I never got therapy, we would go through these really terrible cycles in our marriage for the next, you know, 15 years, 10 years of me. Something triggering me and me going dark or blank or closing off, and then him being like, I'll never be able to fully recover from what I did. And I'm so sorry. And I'm like, it was just like this cycle.

Jen [01:40:39] And then we would talk about it and everything would be good. And then one thing would set me off. A girl in a short skirt would walk by, or we'd watch a movie where, I mean, I was hyper vigilant from that point forward about sexuality.

Jen [01:40:55] We can kind of start talking about that a little bit, I think, like, how this experience affected our family and our life and our church experience.

John Dehlin [01:41:02] Yes. You mentioned in your outline that he wasn't unable to baptize.

Jen [01:41:09] Yes. Yes. So this happened maybe.

John Dehlin [01:41:12] Like, do you have memories of that, Ryan?

Jen [01:41:14] Yeah. I didn't know why I thought it was just my grandpa ended up baptizing me, and we had a really good family friend who, like, gave me the gift of the Holy Ghost. And I just remember it being cool. Like, I had no negative feelings. I was just like, oh, more people who love me, the better. Like, so I. I just. I. I still felt it was very special.

John Dehlin [01:41:37] Nice.

Jen [01:41:38] So, yeah, we kind of.

John Dehlin [01:41:40] Y' all framed it well.

Jen [01:41:41] Yeah. I think we said, like, if you want dad to baptize you, we can. Can wait, like, six months or so, even though you just turned eight. Or if you want to do it right now, grandpa can do it.

John Dehlin [01:41:48] Y.

Jen [01:41:49] And that was just kind of thing. I'm. I'm grateful to hear that they didn't. Yeah. I feel like that can be kind of a bit like, what's. You know, I think later it affected me when the rest of my siblings, My dad, was able to baptize them. So then being able to go do, like, baptisms for the dead in the temple and dad being the one baptizing, like, felt really special. But got it then in the moment. Didn't. Didn't register.

Jen [01:42:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And I know that hurt Andy a lot, but again, for him, too, it was like every. Every punishment I receive is like. Like me repenting kind of, you know, like me willing to humble myself and repent and.

Jen [01:42:32] But when that happened, that whole experience happened with the therapy and stuff. We for sure doubled down on our church experience. Up until that point. We always went to church on Sundays. We didn't, you know, we didn't break the Sabbath. But we weren't like super huge tithing payers. I mean, we're a young family. We struggling and kind of working our way up. We tried. We did mostly, but we weren't super devout. We wouldn't really go to the temple that much. Every once in a while we didn't do family scriptures or sometimes we do fhe, you know, but it wasn't. We just weren't. We were more casual kind of the way I grew up.

Jen [01:43:07] Yeah, yeah. You know, we lived the spirit of the law and we were very happy that way. Hadn't really had big callings or anything, just. But after that we doubled down and it was that. Was that in an effort either consciously or unconsciously to protect yourself. It's like we need to do all the things now. I think it started unconsciously. Like I looked to the scriptures to find some kind of comfort because I was felt utterly alone. Yeah.

Jen [01:43:39] And I, you know, found comfort there. And Andy for sure, like started just about like praying and we just became. Yeah, I think it was from then on out it was like an effort to save our family. That's right.

John Dehlin [01:43:55] I mean, literally they put the fear of God into you.

Jen [01:43:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:59] Which accrues to the benefit of the church. Because what did they get out of manufacturing that crisis? I mean there was. There were elements of that that were just objectively wrong. But there's a lot of it that was a manufactured crisis that accrues to your triple down devotion to the church in terms of service and tithing and obedience and faithfulness.

Jen [01:44:26] Right. Yeah. I mean, can we just take a minute and have you explain what the things in context that were not helpful? Whether it's the addiction model, whether it's about how like the intensity of how it's dealt with or viewed. I don't know what you want to say or even like, I don't know how large it is. Like what it says about someone and their character as opposed to like, do you want to talk about the things that caused you maybe more suffering, second arrow suffering in that situation really quick that made it tougher to process. Do you have a sense for that? Yeah, I mean, I think, honestly, I think all the leading up to it was really, like, the most harmful part.

Jen [01:45:15] All the shame around pornography, the teachings of the harm and, like, the fear of God had put into you people just. Just if it even happened and how dangerous it was and how you'll lose everything. That's right. I think that was a really. That's really what led to, I think, again, his shame and then my fear. Yep. And looking back, you know, once I left the church, looking back, I was like, everything I did was based in fear, and some more than others, but that was huge. I mean, losing my family, losing Andy, the threat being. It was great. It was just the most devastating thing I could have imagined.

Jen [01:45:51] Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And. And so he started the 12 step program that was recommended to him. And so, like I was saying, when that happened, within a few months, he moved out to Denver. So he got a new position in Denver. That's how he ended up out in Colorado. And we. I stayed back to sell our house, so me and the four kids stayed at the house. So he was gone Monday through Friday every week for a year while I tried to sell our house.

Jen [01:46:20] And during that time, he found a group out in Colorado, and that is where he started taking. Doing the 12 step program. And every week, every Wednesday, he would attend this while he was out there, because traveling was kind of a trigger for him. You know, like, I'm gone, I'm out of town, and. Yeah, yeah. So. But when he first started, he was like, I will never look at pornography again. I will never. And one of the things.

Jen [01:46:45] And Andy is, he is a perfectionist. When he does something, he does something. 110%. Yeah. Which you will recognize in Ryan's story. He. When he does it, he does it. He does something. So one of the things they said in one of his first meetings was, none of you here, like, want to be doing pornography, but who here is willing to give it up?

Jen [01:47:13] So it's not what you want, but it's what you're willing to do. And he decided then and there, I am going to be the person who was willing, and I will never look at pornography again. Interesting. But it. And it was a really. Actually a really, really important and a really valuable time that we spent apart. Monday through Friday.

Jen [01:47:32] There were some weekends where I was like, don't come back. I need more time. I need more space. So it was like we kind of both had the opportunity to heal independently and to, like, find our own things. And that was a real gift. It was hard at the time, but we look back and we're like, what a gift that year was.

Jen [01:47:48] And that was a year. Yeah. Where you were kind of doing that. Where he was gone. Home Monday through Friday. Yep. Home on weekends. Unless you kind of. Yeah. There was just once or twice where I was like. And he was like, please don't tell me I can't come home. Like, I need to come home and see you. And I was like, I can't see you again. Like, I'd find an email or one time the girl that he had been communicating with sent a letter to our house or sent a letter or. I can't remember exactly what it was, but there were, like, two times specifically where I was, like, shocked as we were, like, healing.

Jen [01:48:19] Healing. And then something happened that I found that was old or. Yes. And put me into a real tailspin. Right. But that was when I started reading my scriptures, devoutly praying, devoutly attending church, meeting with a bishop. Like, all the things like Dove out and Andy. The same. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] Yeah.

Jen [01:48:44] So I would say that was just a massive. Because I've looked back and thought, like, where did we change into those kind of members that we became? Because that's not how I grew up. You know, I grew up in a much more like, again, spirit of the law and all the wonderful, beautiful things, but nothing. So that was definitely where we dedicated our lives to the gospel, 100%. And the narrative, the story that was created around this time, it sounds like at least one is like, this is what happens when you don't do it perfectly. Exactly. Exactly. Like, okay, I've been punished for the way I lived and the mistakes I've made from here on out. I'm not. We're going to do everything we can to never let that happen again. So now we will live it 100%.

John Dehlin [01:49:37] Yeah. Yeah. And I want to know whether that ended up being a positive thing or a negative thing. But I don't want to get ahead of the story.

Jen [01:49:46] So two things can be true at once, John. This is something I have learned. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Andy loved the group. Again, if you give Andy a set of rules, he will follow them.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] Pornography addiction.

Jen [01:50:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:03] Oh, wow.

Jen [01:50:03] And I love the camaraderie, the friendship. He kind of, I think, pretty quickly became a leader in the group where the guys looked up to him because he once he said he was never going to look again. He never looked again.

John Dehlin [01:50:17] Really?

Jen [01:50:17] Really.

John Dehlin [01:50:18] Oh, wow.

Jen [01:50:19] Yeah. I mean, he is an enigma. Like, I know. Never psychologic. Like, just sort of a psychological approach. I feel like that's a hard one.

John Dehlin [01:50:28] Oh, yeah.

Jen [01:50:29] When you say Right, Yeah. So that's worth noting. Yeah. I mean, I going, you could talk about Andy's childhood and how that created someone in Andy who was like, you perform for your love. Like, you perform for love, and if you're not showing up in a certain way, you are not worthy of love. And I think, like, that was his way of showing, like, I am worthy of love and like, I will never.

Jen [01:50:52] But, yeah, he is a very unique. He's a very unique person, I think, in that way. Yeah. And again, he was converted to the church and, like, lived it. And we lived all the basic standards. But that was when, again, scripture study every day, you know, family prayer, every night, couples prayer, individual prayer, all of it just like totally doubled down. And, you know, we couldn't go to the temple. And something happened, I think, where someone was going to the temple and Andy couldn't go. It was like a family member or a friend. And one of the guys in his group, his 12 step group, had just returned to the temple for the first time after, you know, four years or something.

Jen [01:51:34] And Andy was like, I can do it. If he did it, I can do it. And this guy had, like, you know, slept with hookers and, like, on, like, kind of, well, what Andy considered way off the rail, you know, and he's like, if this guy can come back, I can come back. And so it gave Andy hope, It gave him people to talk to. Yeah, things like that. So he really. And he really. He found a lot of value in the group.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] Yeah. When we surveyed 1612 LGBTQ Mormons and post Mormons, they reported that conversion therapy even had some positive outcomes because at least they had someone to talk to. And at least if they were conversion therapy retreats or groups, at least they had other people to commiserate with or they didn't feel so alone. So even a toxic therapy or an abusive relationship can have positive aspects to it.

Jen [01:52:32] Yeah. And if you look at shame, I mean, if truly Andy was like pummeled by the shame of it, then it also makes sense that this community where you can share openly and the things that you've kept to yourself, that again, must be tremendously relieving. But also, I wonder, you probably grow to love and respect the men you're talking to and you see people on varying places of the spectrum of. I mean, I'm going to say addiction in quotes, totally there. But if you love and you can hold love for people, then you can do it for yourself. Like, I can see also where that would be beneficial if you're Bonding with people, and you're in it with people, and you have this care for people and see goodness, and that is.

Jen [01:53:29] Then you can have it maybe for yourself. That is, too exactly Andy's experience. He loved those men in his group deeply. And he would come home crying. You know, he messed up his wife, you know, kicked him out to the garage.

Jen [01:53:47] They want so much to kick this habit. And he just, he loved, he loved those men so much, and he had such sympathy and care for them. And you're right. I think that kind of allowed him to have care and sympathy for himself.

Jen [01:54:03] But also he was a little bit like, I don't know why it's so hard for them. But then also he would understand, like, you and I are talking about this, and you've never turned from me. You've always held me within this for the most part. You know, he's like, and I, I want that for them with their wives. Like, how can a guy, like, ever heal if you're the person you love the most, isn't willing to give you some space to heal? And so he saw all that, and he always, always was like, I am so grateful that you've gave me the space that you've stayed close to me, that you've, you know, never kicked me out or shamed me more.

Jen [01:54:38] He saw that. There's already so much shame. Yeah. Someone shaming you more is like, you're never going to get better. You know, he saw a lot of that. And I will say, I was saying, I went to the women's group a few times, and I, I, it put such a terrible taste in my mouth. These women were talking about how they were going to put the best locks that are there on their computers and they will never be able to get through. And I'll be looking at his phone every day. And I just sat there going, I, I don't. I don't want that. Yeah, if that's a marriage, I'd rather get divorced.

Jen [01:55:10] That is. That is not the marriage I want. And so, like, when Andy came to me saying, like, someone needs to, like, I need to check in with someone, I was like, that person won't be me. I want to be your wife. Not your babysitter, your caretaker.

Jen [01:55:29] I saw those women saying, this is what I'm going to do. And every day he comes home, and if he's not there, you know, 10 minutes late, then he'll be on the couch. And one of these girls was pregnant, and she was always in tears, and she was like, I put this Block on. And then he said that he did it again. And I don't know what to do. And my heart, I just was like, ladies, like, this isn't it. This is not it. This is not going to work. This is. Walk away. It's okay to walk away. Yeah. I mean, it's not, but. And what do these women have?

Jen [01:56:00] Nothing. No education and just a lot of children. You know, who are they going to walk away to? I mean, I just. I just knew this. I was like, this isn't the place for me because this is not the marriage I want. I don't want to please Andy. Yeah. I want to be my own was kind of my first. Like, I didn't understand it at the time, but my first kind of view into, like, codependency at this unhealthy attachment style.

John Dehlin [01:56:26] That's right.

Jen [01:56:26] And I knew we had that, and I kind of still do, but just in. Not. It's not unhealthy. But, like, then it was. It was like, I'm not going to check your phone if you. I can't stop you. Obviously, what I've learned from this experience is that you could do whatever you want and hide it from me. Right.

Jen [01:56:45] And if that's your choice. And the therapist helped me a lot. That worked with Annie. Like, she helped me see, like, what you do is irrelevant to what he does. Yeah. You can't stop him. You can't make him do it or not make him do it. And that helped me a lot. And I was like, I don't want to be that. I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be the person. I don't want to be his mother. Exactly. Like, I don't want to be the.

Jen [01:57:03] That's not a marriage to me. That's not a partner. And so I just sought out my own. I read books. I dedicated myself to the gospel.

John Dehlin [01:57:16] Y' all really dodged a bullet there because that whole scenario of pornography, quote, sex addiction, has torpedoed so many marriages and so many lives.

Jen [01:57:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:27] And y'.

Jen [01:57:28] All.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] And I guess you were lucky that you had a decent Mormon therapist referred to you.

Jen [01:57:34] She was a gift. Absolutely a gift.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] But y' all also navigated that, it seems, very skillfully, given the landmines that were there.

Jen [01:57:42] I think our foundation was love. And we had just deeply loved each other for a long time. Yeah. And I saw Andy, and I just believed in his heart and in his soul and who he was. I believed him.

Jen [01:57:59] So one of the things she said was, like, again, like, you get to decide if you want to trust him or not. Trust is a choice at some point, and once you choose it, then you can kind of let it build. And if you choose that, you're never going to trust him, then that's your choice, too. And you can walk away or you can live a life like that. And I just knew that there was a point. And I remember thinking, either I walk away or I choose to allow trust to be built again. Yeah. And that's what I chose to do. And the beautiful thing was that Andy kept up his end of the bargain when it comes to that.

Jen [01:58:31] You know, we read this book, and it was like, if. If after a situation like this happens, there's a way that you can make it through, and people make it through. And this was their way was like, the person who's the victim needs to be willing to let the person make changes and to learn to trust them again. And the person who did the victimizing needs to be willing to do whatever this person needs them to do. And if the two people can manage that, it's. It's a way forward. And that's what we did. And Andy, I always. I have friends whose marriages have ended over these types of things, and I always.

Jen [01:59:06] I give so much credit to Andy. He kept up his end of the bargain. And whenever I needed anything, I want every password to your phone or every this or I need you to tell me when you're going to be three minutes late. He just did it and never, ever said, like, how annoying. Like, what am I, a child? Or like, he never, ever did that. Right. He always came forward from that time on with, like, honesty and those things. So I think together we made a good team in that way. Sounds like it. Yeah. So we were lucky. I felt like we were really lucky.

Jen [01:59:38] But. And that's the thing looking back on that, we are, like, we're grateful we had that and also, like, it caused the harm in so many ways. So, again, both things are kind of true in that situation. That. But it was. It was a. Was a struggle for a very long time. Yeah. And ups and downs, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Serving as Relief Society President

John Dehlin [01:59:57] Wow. Okay, so what comes next in your epic story?

Jen [02:00:01] So we moved to Colorado, and I have another baby, my little LJ.

John Dehlin [02:00:06] And that's 2009.

Jen [02:00:08] Yep. Yeah. I think LJ was born 2000. Yes. And so we had five beautiful, wonderful children. My children are the absolute best. And when LJ was, gosh, a year and a half or two years, I got called, really society president in my ward.

Jen [02:00:31] It it was, like, the shock of my life, if I'm being honest. There was a new bishop. We hadn't lived there that long, but we had some friends. And the. And the current Early Society president was, like, the most typical, perfect, lovely Mormon woman. And we were friends, and she's a wonderful person, but, you know, did everything right, served a mission, and was just a perfect Mormon. She's wonderful.

Jen [02:00:55] And so when the bishop came, sat me down and said, I calling you. He was brand new, so that kind of, like, the whole thing had been changed. And he came in and said, I would like for you to. I'm asking you to be Relief Society President. I prayed about it, and. And I just started sobbing, and I was like, you don't want me. You don't know who I am. I am not like her.

Jen [02:01:17] I'm not the person that you must. Not that you think I must be, because I am not. You know, I'm thinking, I am not Mormon. I don't know. I just. Still. All the past shame was there, and I was like, I'm not who you think I am. And he said, I was in the temple, and I was praying, and your face came to me, because we didn't know each other very well. We were fairly new. And he. And he said, I saw your face, and I know it's who God wants it to be.

Jen [02:01:44] And I was like, okay. And in so many ways, that was such a huge turning point for me, because it was like, I'm worthy, I guess. Heavenly Father thinks I'm worthy and that I have something to offer. And so, yeah, I became leaderst President, and that was a really cool experience. I actually loved it. And it's so funny because, you know, when Ryan was talking about her experience and how she felt, so had a lot of feelings of, like, abandonment and that she needed me home. And I can totally see that, because I was gone a lot.

John Dehlin [02:02:27] Mm.

Jen [02:02:27] I mean, a lot. But I loved it. I got to be out of the house. I was going into people's homes. I was helping people. I was meeting with the bishop and meeting with my counselors and planning things, and I was, like, the first time since I was married that I had, like, value outside my home. Yeah. You know, and, like, a role outside of motherhood and wife, which I loved those roles. I loved being a mom.

Jen [02:02:52] I mean, it was all I knew, but I wanted to be just like my mom, and that's what I was getting to do, you know, I loved being a mom. Yeah. We had such a fun family. Our kids Growing up, we just. They were so much fun, and we had fun, and Andy was such a great partner and so helpful and involved with the kids, and we just had a really fun growing up, but being. Getting to be outside of my home and have value and, like, in that way, I enjoyed it very much. Yeah.

Jen [02:03:23] Now, you know, like, as an example, just kind of me being like a. No nonsense. Like, we were, like, having an activity, and they were like, oh, well, we should get, like, cups and napkins. And I was like, well, napkins just seem wasteful. And we have a drinking fountain. Do we really need cups? And my counselors were like, yes, Jen, we need cups. And I was like, that seems overkill, but okay. Like, you know, I'm just so chill. I'm just so. Like, we have drinking fountains. Like, we're planning this special lunch, you know, and I just have hydration. Needs are filled. I'm not into, like, the fluff and frills. And luckily, I had counselors to help keep me. Like, yes, we need plastic cups for this activity.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] You know, Jim's the opposite of extra.

Jen [02:04:01] Exactly. I feel like that's how I. I could be too. I can see that in you. Yeah. Or like, I'm like, oh, how wasteful. Exactly. I'm just gonna drink water. 100. Could we all intermittently visit the water. Bring their water bottles.

Jen [02:04:15] Yeah. No. Or. Yeah, bring water bottles. Could we just do an ostrous. Bring your water bottle. So. But I enjoyed it very much, and I had wonderful counselors who I just enjoyed it. And this is where I got to know my bishop.

Jen [02:04:30] So Bishop Lovett was my bishop, and we became very fast friends and worked really well together. Enjoyed each other a lot. That's fortunate. Yeah, it was really good. I felt like I was a good balance to him. He was like a Very much like, never did anything wrong. He was kind of like a rigid. Yeah, he's pretty rigid in his. Okay ways of thinking. Very what you would think of kind of as a leader, but not really nice person.

Jen [02:05:00] Very submissive, kind wife. But we became really good friends and worked really well together. And there were things where he'd be like, well, the women can't be doing that. And I was like, it's. That's really. Actually not. You shouldn't be saying anything about what the women can do or can't do outside of. There's, like, a book club. And he was upset about the book they were reading. And I was like, well, it's kind of none of your business, because it's not Like a church thing. And then he went and said something anyway and got a bunch of backlash. And he was like, I should have probably listened to you and just not said anything.

Jen [02:05:29] And I was like, yeah, But we had a great relationship. So I got released then about two and a half years later. And there is one thing to claim is that I have always despised the scouting program, as you can imagine, that went against the grain.

Jen [02:05:51] And people were just like, oh, that's just crazy. It's the most amazing program ever. And I was like, no, it's not amazing at all. It's a terrible program. And why is it only focused on boys? And why do they get so much more money and why do we pay all this money? And I don't agree with it. And so.

Jen [02:06:07] Because I was in a lot of meetings, obviously, and that's something I will, I guess we'll mention. As a Relief Society president. When I was leave Society president was when they changed where women could start coming into the priesthood meetings before ward council just to release Society president would come in. I think maybe the young woman's president too, because before it was just the men would meet before ward council, like a priesthood something, and then everyone would come in for ward council.

Jen [02:06:30] Well, they started inviting the women in to that pre. The medium before ward council. And I would sit in there and I would be like, oh, you guys just make all the decisions in this meeting. And then we go into ward council and you present like, oh, here's some things that what are your thoughts? But the decisions have all been made. And I saw that when we started doing that, and I was like, this is like the good old boys club meeting. And they're all laughing and joking and making all the decisions. And I was friends with these guys. I've kind of always been more friends with guys.

Jen [02:07:00] Just in general, I fit in better. My friendships in high school and stuff were mostly all boys and guys and men as I grew up. And that's why I fit in really well. But I saw that, like, okay, so you guys have been having this meeting all along, making the decisions, and then we go into ours and you're acting like there's decisions to be made, but it's all just for show. So I noticed that for sure as early society president.

Jen [02:07:26] So it's like, it's like the peeking behind the curtain a little bit. Yeah, totally. And then also with the budget, they would talk about budget because, you know, I didn't know any of this stuff. I just went along and like, I was just a member who showed up and did her part and, like, went home. I didn't realize all this stuff behind the scenes was always happening. Yeah. And so then we talk about budget and how the boys budget was, like, you know, $12,000 for the year, and the young one's budget was, like, 2400. And I'd be like, that doesn't.

John Dehlin [02:07:52] What.

Jen [02:07:52] Like, what. What the. What in the world? Oh, well, scouting. And I'm like, okay, but we should still just give that to the girls as well. But, like, why are we wasting. Why are we spending so much money? Outrageous amounts of money, and the girls get nothing, you know? And Ryan was kind of getting a little bit older, too, so it was kind of like coming more into, like, my. My life experience, you know, So I started noticing those things, but I was. I just kind of went with it on a ward level. I feel like men and women, they aren't equal, but it feels a little bit more equal.

Jen [02:08:24] You're just with your people, you know, and you're just kind of in meetings making decisions. And as relief side president, you do have a say if you have a good bishop. And. And Jeremy, he listened to me a bit. Like, he. I felt like he really valued what I said, and so it kind of gave the illusion of, like, you have some power here. Okay. So the things that I saw that I was like, that's weird. I just brushed aside. Okay. You know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:51] And then by that point, it. It says in your outline, you were kind of struggling to find fulfillment in church. Is that right?

Jen [02:08:56] Yeah. I got released, and they called me into Scouts. And, no, I was not. I was not quiet about how I felt about Scouts. No one. And I told the bishop, don't you dare call me into scouts when I get released from this.

Jen [02:09:08] And he did. And I just was like, oh, if eyes could kill. I was like, but, I mean, you can't say no to calling, you know? And he was like, I promise. Like, I called you in with this really amazing new girl who's in the war, and you're gonna love her. And I was like, fine, I'll do it. Whatever, you know, But I'm not going to those meetings anyway.

Jen [02:09:27] Yeah. So I started doing Scouts, and I actually. I became, like, one of my dearest friends was that girl that I got called in with. She has that. Just one of my dearest friends. I absolutely adore her very much. She's such a beautiful part of my life. But church was a struggle, and I just started being like, this isn't doing anything for me. Like, I just really was not fulfilled. I would sit in the lessons. They were so shallow, and the comments seemed weird. I just was not. I was so. I was feeling very unfulfilled, and it kind of scared me a little bit. Like, what is.

Jen [02:10:00] What do you do with this? And I was always like, I'll never be good enough. I'll never be all these things I need to be. But I kind of also saw, like, I feel like it's kind of set up that way that you're never going to be good enough. Like, it's not like it's just me. I feel like that's kind of the whole point is to never be good enough so that you're always sacrificing yourself for something else, you know?

Jen [02:10:25] And so I reached a point where it was like, okay, I double down or I take a step away, and I thought, I have to double down. And so I started, like, just taking everything up a notch. It was like I would read my scriptures with a journal where I would write in a journal. As I read the Book of Mormon, I filled up multiple journals that way. I read the book more multiple times as I'm writing my different thoughts or different questions are different, and I just really doubled down. I really tried to be like, I need to commit to this all the way. And so that's kind of where. Yeah, it's kind of where that led me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:03] My question is, when was the last time you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover? That was an inside joke.

Jen [02:11:08] Yeah, I know. I got you. It's too long ago to remember now. Probably 20. 20. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:19] Okay. Okay. So Julie is laughing behind the scenes. All right. Hey.

Jen [02:11:27] Yeah. Writing in a journal and reading it like, you know, six times in four years probably isn't enough for me to really remember anything about it. And it changes, you know, it changes so much that totally. Yeah. You weren't even up to date at all. You. Now you would think it was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] That was a friendly shout out to the poll brothers.

Jen [02:11:47] All right, so.

John Dehlin [02:11:50] So I guess, I don't know. 2019 is a. Is a big year.

Jen [02:11:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:55] For Trace.

Jen [02:11:56] Okay, so let me say in late 2018, I got called into the Stake young women's presidency. I think that's. That was a big thing.

John Dehlin [02:12:03] Oh, yeah.

Jen [02:12:04] I was in the primary. I got called in the primary presidency shortly after the scouting thing, which I did for a little while. And I loved being in the primary. I'd never done it before. I'd never been a primary teacher ever in all my years. I'd always only been in Relief Society or Young Women's, and I loved being in primary. And the women I served with were just very similar to me. Chill, laid back, amazing and fun and not super weird, crazy. And we had a really great primary presidency. Sorry.

Jen [02:12:34] Neither weird nor weird nor crazy. And I was like. I told the bishop, like, you better never release me from this calling like this. I need to be here. Because, like, I remember I did a. They had like, a lesson on modesty, and it was my turn to teach the lesson. And I'm like, what are we teaching? Because the whole thing was just set out for you. The manual sets out the lesson for you. It was like, you know, near shoulders and, you know, thing what's inappropriate to wear. And I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna do this to, like, six year olds.

Jen [02:13:08] I know primary kids who are wearing tank tops to church, and I'm not gonna go in there and, like, shame them over their bodies. And so I did this whole different kind of lesson where it was like, well, would you wear, like, your winter coat in the summer or would you wear a swimsuit when it's snowing outside? Like, we wear what fits for the time and the day and the way you're comfortable in your body. And, you know, I just tried to, like. And you can kind of do in primary, when you have a good presidency that works with you, no one's really paying attention, you know, like, yeah, so I really enjoyed it in there, and I felt like we had a good group.

Jen [02:13:37] And then they called me into the Stake Relief Society, Stake Young Women's presidency. Thank you. And I was like, what? No, no, you do not want me. Like, again, I was like, you're calling the wrong person. You know, so Jeremy, my previous bishop, had just become stake president, so he went from being the bishop to being the stake president. And he called a woman to be the president and for the young women's. And she called me to be her first counselor.

Jen [02:14:07] So it was kind of weird anyway, but I was just like, I guess I'll say yes, but I don't. I don't think. I don't think you guys want me there. And, you know, it's so weird when you get a calling, especially like that when people are like, oh, I knew it would be you. Yeah. Like, oh, there'd be no one better than you. And I'm thinking, I don't know what that means. Like, yeah, I. I just thought it was very weird because I was like, I don't think you guys Know what you're saying. Because I don't think you're gonna like me there.

John Dehlin [02:14:34] Right.

Jen [02:14:35] But, you know, I'm always willing to humble myself. And so, yeah, I started that calling, and right away it was a lot of work, but I enjoyed it. I love the women I served with. They were fantastic people. Really had enjoyed their time. And we would go into each of the wards and meet with the, you know, the ward presidencies. Like, we were very active and very involved and tried to really be like, what can. What do you need from us? What can we do? Like, so we would go and teach in all the wards. And so I was gone a lot then, too, because I was in college, though.

Jen [02:15:07] Yeah. Yeah. So on Sundays, I. I was gone to almost another ward almost all the time, but my kids were a little bit older, and I enjoyed it a lot. And I just loved all the women. I truly just fell in love with these women and saw that their hearts and souls were, like, dedicated to these callings and that they loved these young women they were over and were just giving it their all. I mean, most time they're coming to us in tears and, like, I don't. I know how to break through to this child or I don't have the finances to fund the things I want to do or like, you know, they just.

Jen [02:15:37] They wanted to do it all, but they're. Your hands are tied a lot. So we just had a lot of love for the women that we served. Yeah. With. And then kind of over. Yes. When Trace was 16, my son that's below Ryan, my second child is Trace.

Jen [02:15:55] He's. He's autistic. And due to some, like, things that he was doing online, which were very innocent, but very innocent in to him because he didn't know, but from the outside kind of look like, whoa. And we started finding out about some of these things, and he was getting in trouble for some of them, but they were all directed towards boys.

Jen [02:16:18] And I. If I'm being honest, I think I probably knew Trace was gay from a very young age, but I was just like, well, I'm not going to bring it up, and maybe he's not, and I'm not going to push something on him. I'm, you know, I'll support him if he is, but I don't want to be the one to, like, bring it up. And so I took a walk with him once because.

Jen [02:16:36] And I said, you know, bud, do you think that maybe you're gay? And he was like, what does that mean? I mean, he's 16. You know, an autistic. It's like, unless someone specifically said something to you, a lot of times you don't know what something that everyone else just knows what it means just because they pick up the information as they go. And I said, well, it means, like, that you like boys. You know, I said, you know how me and dad like to hold hands and we like to hug and kiss and cuddle on the couch and talk to each other and, you know that you would want to do that with a boy?

Jen [02:17:04] And he was like, yeah, I think so. And I said, okay, awesome. That's totally wonderful. You know, and we support you and love you, and, I mean, it's a little bit complicated because then we had to try to teach, like, appropriate behavior. And I would come to find out that a lot of teenagers and young adults and adults with autism end up in prison over sexual things that they do that they don't know is wrong, you know, Anyway, so teaching, that became kind of a thing. But, yeah, it. And the.

LGBTQ Youth, A Son Coming Out, and Growing Doubts

Jen [02:17:38] The leader that was over me, this. The Stake Young Women's President, her son was also gay. She'd had twins. They were a little bit older. They'd gone on missions. He'd come out as bi, and then, like, try. He said, like, you know, he prayed every day on his mission that he would not be gay. And his dad was a Stake President at the time, and wonderful people, wonderful family. Then he came out as bi after his mission. And then eventually, just like, I'm gay, you know, and I knew them very well. And so Becky and I would talk a lot about our kids and, like, how.

Jen [02:18:07] How do we move forward in the church with this and how do we support them and. And she loved her son and supported him. You know, I'm wondering how you felt

John Dehlin [02:18:17] the permission to tell your son. It was fine when you're, like, young. When. Stake Young Women's President, former Relief Society President.

Jen [02:18:28] Right.

John Dehlin [02:18:29] Triple Committed Mormon. Because of all the church trauma you had experienced.

Jen [02:18:34] I will say being in that calling was the beginning of the end for me.

John Dehlin [02:18:40] Which calling?

Jen [02:18:41] Stake Young Women's Presidency. I was seeing things that I believed were just fundamentally wrong. Dress coding, girls at girls camp, things when we would have to go and ask men, ask the men for permission to do things. I'll tell you about a meeting in a little while that we had, and they would just, you know, we'd put all this time and energy and pray and read about the rules. There's, like, the new handbook that had come out because the young men had Left the boy Scouts and it was like, oh, awesome, now we're going to be equal.

Jen [02:19:14] No, not even close. You know, the boys were still going white water rafting and going out to pizza and going climbing 14ers. And we were had $40 per girl to plan a week long camp. And when we asked for five more dollars per girl, they said no. And like we spent a year planning these things. And three weeks before the boys camp, they'd be like, hey, who wants to go whitewater rafting and climb a 14er? And then they would all go out to pizza. And I mean, it was just like, I thought this was. I thought that was like the scouting thing, that was kind of what I was always hidden under.

Jen [02:19:46] Oh, it's not equal because we have scouts. And then we left the Scouts and it was just equally as unequal. So there's just these things I started seeing that I was like, and why are we telling girls what they can wear to girls camp? Like, I just kind of things that started to.

John Dehlin [02:20:01] Yeah, because modesty was to keep the boys thoughts pure.

Jen [02:20:05] Right, Right. Just let the girls be girls. And I never, I was never a huge modesty thing. So even though I was devoutly Mormon, I wasn't. I mean, like, you can tell from kind of Ryan's story. It was like I didn't care she wore modest or immodest. And I would say one thing that is so silly, but it wasn't silly then, is that I would go visit my sister. My sister lived in Hawaii, and I'd go visit her one week out of every year. I'd fly over and spend the week with her. And I did get a lot of flack for that from other people.

Jen [02:20:35] Like, oh, you just go without your husband or you just let your husband just lets you go, like. And I was like, he actually loves when I do it because I'm so happy. And he gets to spend a week with the kid. Like, it was just that kind of anyway. And I would wear a bikini in Hawaii and I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna wear like a tankini this time I get there, I'd be like, no, it's so uncomfortable and I just want to wear a bikini. And even though I chose to do it, I had a lot of guilt about it.

Jen [02:21:00] And I thought again, there's got to be some kind of like, kind of punishment for that in some way. So I don't know. So even though I was very devout, I still kind of had that person inside of me that was like, this doesn't feel bad to me.

John Dehlin [02:21:14] Yeah.

Jen [02:21:15] No one sees me. No one's paying attention to what I'm wearing. No one cares here. No one knows me. Why can't I just wear what I'm comfortable in? And so that would. I would just. I would justify it in that way. But I had guilt over it for sure. You couldn't escape the other side. I still kind of followed my heart, but there was definitely shame and guilt attached to it. So, like, even when I was in the stake, I got a tattoo. So I had a tattoo on my foot that I got in high school. I know that's inappropriate. I know. And I wanted to get it covered for a long time.

Jen [02:21:45] So I'd gotten it in high school, and I was like, yeah. And I was like, I'm just gonna get it covered. And Ryan drew it for me and I went and got it covered. It's just on my foot. And so this sounds like bordering on

John Dehlin [02:21:55] apostate behavior at this point. Did you feel like you were flirting with apostasy? No.

Jen [02:22:00] Oh, no, not at all. No.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] People are laughing at me saying that.

Jen [02:22:05] No, not at all. I didn't at all. But I was like, I'm me and I'm a good person. And I've known. I have known Mormons that have. Usually it's like a tattoo in a certain way, right? Clothes on the foot. Sure. On my foot or small. Yes. Or it was a cover up. So it was a cover up. So it wasn't like I was. Yeah, I was like. And I kind of knew people. Some people would frown on it. But the other thing I loved was that I was in these wards with all the young women and I wanted them to see me. That's right. And I honestly, like, I started wearing a second piercing because I took out all my piercings. Of course, when they came out, the second piercing.

John Dehlin [02:22:41] Again, forbidden.

Jen [02:22:42] Yes, forbidden. But when I was like, I want these girls to see that I'm a stake young women's president and I'm still wearing two earrings that are just small and modest. And I'm. But I'm still a good person. I am showing up and I am. I have value and I'm doing my calling and I'm loving and I just. I think I wanted to try to kind of break the stigma for the girls we were serving. Like, I love those girls. I love that. Yeah, A little. A little outside the box behavior. Right? Like, freeing.

John Dehlin [02:23:09] But surely you knew President Hinckley denounced multiple ear piercings.

Jen [02:23:12] Oh, yes. I took my piercings out, like, long, long ago. Yeah. So I think that's what I'm saying. Like, that calling, I. I felt a little bit of, like, rebellious. Me coming back a little bit. That's right. But then I was like, but I'm not harming anybody, and I'm still a good person, and I'm doing my calling 110, and I read my scriptures every day, and I am. I'm doing all the things. But this is like, I. Again, like, I think being with the young, the youth just gave me something. Like, I want them to see that they are. Like, who they are is good and. Okay. Yep. Oh, it was so fun. We went into.

John Dehlin [02:23:46] Wait. Julie wants to know what the tattoo was.

Jen [02:23:48] Oh, it was a little fish, and I covered with mountains. So I'll show it to you at some point.

John Dehlin [02:23:54] Okay. Sorry.

Jen [02:23:55] That's okay. What was I gonna say? Sorry. No, that's okay. Oh, we went into the. So one of. We had a Spanish ward in our. In our stake, and we would go into their. To their thing. And I mean, these were literally, like, the best Sundays of my life. These young women were so fun and so funny and so spunky and unique. And we would be like, ask questions. We're here. We're the stake young women's president. Ask us any questions. And one of them was like, well, all my girlfriends are wearing G strings. Is it okay for me to wear G strings?

John Dehlin [02:24:30] Wait, G strings?

Jen [02:24:32] Like G string? Like a thong underwear?

John Dehlin [02:24:34] Yeah.

Jen [02:24:34] Yeah. And we were all like, well, I don't see why not. But these girls were just so real. And some of them would cry. Like, my friend was smoking, and they asked me to smoke with them, and I said no. But then, now they don't want to be my friends. And like, my. It hurts so much. I love that friend. And they're still a good person. And, like, what do I do? Just these real. It wasn't like, the pretty coated. Let's all present like, we're wonderful people. Because I won't talk about Ryan growing up, but I knew how those people, those young women treated Ryan.

Jen [02:25:05] Right. And I saw how they were at church. Yep. And they presented pretty at church and lovely and all the right answers. And they were at school. Right. And they treated her like. Sorry, my. And it killed me. And I was like, you are not good people. Yeah. I mean, they're teenagers. I don't mean not good people, but your behavior is not good. Yeah. You're not. But then you present split behavior.

Jen [02:25:32] Kind of. That's right. What we present us and Then a lived experience with. Exactly. And I have seen Ryan go through that. And Ryan was just. I admired her so much because she was everything I wished I had been as a youth. She was independent and smart, but she was faithful the way I wasn't.

Jen [02:25:51] And Ryan and I. I mean, not to, like, bypass this, but we were very close. Yeah, we. I mean, we kind of grew up together, you know, like, I feel like I'm very close with my kids, but as Ryan grew like, her and I created a very special bond, and we hiked together and we talked about everything, and so we were very close. So when she was treated poorly. Yeah.

Jen [02:26:16] I was irate and confused because I'm like, she's doing all the things she's being asked above and beyond. She is good to her core.

John Dehlin [02:26:26] Yep.

Jen [02:26:27] Why is she experiencing such heartache and such hurt and such meanness? I was very confused. Yes. And so when I went in with those young women and I saw that they. These girls, I. I loved them. And I'm like, you are perfect exactly how you are. Right. And. And me. So am I. And, yeah, I have, like, one earring on the. Two on this side and one on this side. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] Yeah.

Jen [02:26:54] And I'm still here and I'm still serving and I'm still doing all the good things I'm being asked to do. So I think I just. I really wanted to represent them and show them and embody it.

John Dehlin [02:27:03] Yeah.

Jen [02:27:04] Yeah. But I was. I wasn't hugely loved in that calling, as you can imagine.

John Dehlin [02:27:11] Yeah.

Jen [02:27:11] Because I can imagine that's a bit of a disruptor role. Yeah. Just in the embodiment, even if you're. You're going in for sure. And so another example is, like, I sat in a meeting with all we. All the. All the stake leaders, and we were doing or like young leader, young people leaders. So the stake, young men's and some high council men, and then us three women as a stake. And when we were playing, like, steak youth activities, and I was like, hey, we've been doing this one thing for the last four years. If we want a lot of people to come, maybe we should change it up.

Jen [02:27:39] And I have this idea, I have this friend, and they were doing this activity and. And they, like, didn't end up happening. And I was like, okay, well, I guess you're saying you want more people to come, but whatever, you're doing the same thing. It's not going to. We got out of that meeting and the ladies I served with were like, did you see his face. And I was like, what do you mean? And they were like. He was red as a beat. He was so angry at you. And I'm like, wait, for what? And they were like, just for, like, saying that we could.

Jen [02:28:08] Should try something new when he already had this thing planned. And so it's just, like, right away, me even having an opinion and being comfortable enough to present it did not sit well with the men I was serving with.

Jen [02:28:23] Yeah. And so I. And so I would just be like, go into these meetings, humble. Don't speak up if you. You know, I just. I tried to be what I was supposed to be, and I. And I tried to make peace, and I tried to really present. I was like. I never came in, like, stomping through, but I was like. I mean, I was in this calling. I feel like I was called to share my opinions. That's right. And you're witnessing. You're closer to it. Yeah. You're actually witnessing how the planned things go. Right. What goes wrong or what's lacking. Yeah. So it just kind of became a thing.

Jen [02:28:56] It became. It became something where I was. I felt like I knew who I loved, and again, I had to kind of live with who I was in the end, but I could. I could feel that it probably wasn't the best fit. Yeah. Y.

Jen [02:29:10] So anyway, yes, Trace came out as gay, and we supported him. And I started realizing there's. We have to. There's got to be other gay youth out there that need support. And I told Andy, I want to start an LGBTQ youth support thing at our house once a month.

Jen [02:29:27] And I was like, let's just do it. We'll play games. Let's just be fun. Just get them together so they know they're not alone. And Trace wanted to be faithful. We were believing. We were faithful. Believing, like, he wanted to be faithful. Trace was faithful. I mean, he was incredibly obedient.

John Dehlin [02:29:43] Now, you were aware at the church's historical super negative rhetoric around, quote, homosexuality, Right?

Jen [02:29:51] Yeah. Should I tell the story? We talked about. About the. Telling you guys about the. Yeah, you should. When the kids were little and they came out with the 2015 thing, I was very upset by it.

John Dehlin [02:30:01] For those who are never Mormon, this is what.

Jen [02:30:04] When they said gay kids, kids of gay couples cannot be baptized in the church or go on missions until they're, like, old enough to, like, be 18 and basically, like, denounce their parents relationship, and then they can experience these things. And that seems so terrible to me, but someone said to me, well, they're just Doing it because they don't want to separate families. And. And I just let that be enough. Again, the thought stopping. It was like, oh, okay, so it's about families. And then that was it. That was the only way I could. I know. I look back now, I'm like, jen, ah. You know, but it was how I made it work.

John Dehlin [02:30:39] This is three years before your son.

Jen [02:30:42] Yes. And so when they had that. When the 2015 thing came out, and they came out and said, hey, you guys need to talk to your kids, because this is now legal, but we don't agree with it or whatever. So we sat our kids down and said, hey, you know, there's this new law, and, like, now gay marriage is legal. And they were like, what's that? And I was like, well, girls can marry girls and boys can marry boys. And my daughter Callie was like, I can marry Laney.

John Dehlin [02:31:04] Yes.

Jen [02:31:05] And my son Sam. I can marry Matthew, his best friend. Oh, yay. And we were like, oh, actually, like, the sweetest, most childlike. Like, I love it. Yes. I can marry my best friend.

John Dehlin [02:31:18] Right?

Jen [02:31:18] Are you kidding me?

John Dehlin [02:31:19] Fine.

Jen [02:31:20] You know, what a great. The world is new. What a great law.

John Dehlin [02:31:22] Yes.

Jen [02:31:23] And we were like, actually, the church says we can't do that. And it felt so. So, yeah, it broke my heart because I didn't disagree with it, but I was just. I don't know. It's just. It's such a way. You just separate yourself, you know? And I just was like, I guess if my kids get presented with this at school, they should be able to say, well, we only believe with this one thing. Which I'm just so horrified to think about that now.

Jen [02:31:49] But that's what we were told to do, and that's what we did. So we had said that. But when Trey. I always never felt right about it. So when Trace came out as gay, I felt like, okay, this is my chance to rectify what I feel like. I kind of have always been upset that I did that and felt it was a mistaken to begin with. And now we can say we support you. And the sad thing was, he got that support from us, but we'd come home from. All the way home from church, and he. We'd say, like, how is church? Because at that point, I was kind of a little bit like, so, what are you guys learning in church?

Jen [02:32:19] And then, like, trying to kind of say, like, well, actually, we don't. Totally. We don't agree with that. And so that's okay sometimes. And he would. We'd come home from church and his chin would be quivering. You know, he's 16. And I'd be like, what's wrong? And he'd be like, I can't get married.

Jen [02:32:37] And I was like, yeah, you can. He's like, that's not what heavenly father says. And my teacher said that we can't get married and I can never be a dad. And I was like, trace, they are wrong. You can be a dad. And I pulled up pictures of gay men with children and said, look, you can be a dad.

Jen [02:32:55] And I started recognizing. I had listened to a podcast, I think I was telling you guys this before with two lesbian young adults. And you had asked one of the girls if your parents were so liberal and open minded, and you had gay people in your home, like, why did you wait so long to tell your parents? Because she said she hadn't told them till she was like 26 or something.

Jen [02:33:16] And she said, well, I knew they supported me, but God did not support me. And what he felt about me mattered more than what my parents felt about me. And that is what I realized was happening with Trace, is we could say we supported you, but he cares so deeply about what his teachers at church and what his peers and what the prophet is saying, that that matters way more than what we're saying.

Jen [02:33:42] And this is pretty close to, like, Covid and shutting things down, so that's kind of that. But can we go back a little bit and talk about Ryan and her mission and getting ready for her mission?

John Dehlin [02:33:52] Yeah, sorry.

Jen [02:33:53] I feel like we kind of jumped forward a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:33:54] Yeah, yeah, okay. Sorry.

Jen [02:33:56] No, it's not your fault. That's mine.

John Dehlin [02:33:58] So did you say you started listening to, like, questionable podcasts at some point?

Jen [02:34:05] No. Well, no, I started. I did start. So something very specific happened before Ryan left on her mission. We had been advocating. We had been talking with all the young women leaders, and everyone wanted a ward camp for girls camp. We had been planning these state camps forever. You know, it takes a whole year to plan. It's all this work. And all the young women leaders had said, like, we really want a ward camp.

Jen [02:34:30] And so we prayed about it. We looked at all the rules, all the new rules, and we're like, yeah, we don't see why not. Let's go ahead and move forward. But we had to go ask the stake. We had to ask permission from the men to have ward camps.

Jen [02:34:42] And we had done so much praying and, like, caring for these women, and within like a day, they came back and were said, yeah, no, we don't approve that you guys just need to stick with what you were doing.

Jen [02:34:53] And that was a real breaking point for me, where I was like, okay, so we've been praying and reading the rules and the handbooks and counseling with these women, and all it is is just a no. And I'm like, no, like what? I was so upset, and I started talking about it out loud. Like, I kind of mostly kept all my things, but all my friends, I was like, yeah, they won't let us have ward camps. And yet the boys have always had ward camps. And they're intimate, and the women want them, for their girls to connect with each other and to have this, like, relationships are really trying to build within their awards.

Jen [02:35:27] And it was just a no. That was it. And I started complaining about it. I think it probably got up to the top. So they called us into a meeting, the Stake Steak Men. And it was the first time in like, the two and a half years I'd started in the calling that I'd ever been met with a steak. So Becky, the president, she had a handful of times, or I don't know how many times I shouldn't say, but I had never met. They'd never been asked for me to come in. So I thought, okay, Jen, do not cause problems in this meeting. I told myself, like, you're not the president.

Jen [02:36:00] Be humble. Just sit there and be quiet and be like the good woman that you need to be in this meeting. Because obviously my talking had probably gotten us in a bit of trouble. So we go in all the pleasantries. You know, there's like 12 men and three women in the room on the big table, the high council room, you know, and they're all at the top of the table. And the president, the stake president says, I just want to start this meeting by saying you guys have the ability to, you know, make recommendations and get. Get inspiration for these young women, but ultimately, we make the final decision, and it is your responsibility to get on board with that decision.

Jen [02:36:47] And I just went, yeah, I'm not going to be able to keep that commitment to myself of being quiet. And like, I. It was like, that was just it. You're welcome to give us thoughts and your suggestions, but ultimately we make the decision, and then you get on board with it. And that is, like, literally your only responsibility is to get on board with what we tell you you can or can't do, which is also kind of like a reprimand. Like, you did not get on board with our decision. Yes. Which is your job.

Jen [02:37:18] Yeah. And I just that honestly, I almost think that moment changed everything for me. Like, I all of a sudden saw the inequality, like, on such a deep level. I could not unsee the inequality that was happening in that room. And like, all these things came back to me. The inequality that I had always ignored.

Jen [02:37:39] And I just. The whole meeting, they just said, okay, so tell us what you want. And I was like, we want equality. So if the boys are doing ward camps, we would like to do ward camps. Oh, yeah, no, you know, and I was like, oh, okay. So the boys are then going to do a state camp. They just laugh.

Jen [02:37:57] We could never do that. I mean, we couldn't put the 11 year olds with the 18 year olds. I mean, who would even. What would we even do? And it's such an age gap and it just be read. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Then, like, we'll do ward camps.

Jen [02:38:07] And they were like, oh, no. And I'm like, oh, okay. So then the war, the. The boys will do a. They're like, who would even plan that award? A men's stake camp. And I was like, all of you, that that's what we do all year long, like. And they're like. I mean, they literally would laugh.

Jen [02:38:26] Oh, how funny. But no, you can't do it, sister. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I wouldn't stop saying it. Yeah, tell us what you want. Equality. I want. We want equality. We want what the boys get. So you tell us if. Are they going to have word camps? Cool. We'll plan word camps.

Jen [02:38:45] Something as simple as camp. I mean, we did that. You do that every single year. Yes. It's not like, so outside the wheelhouse of. I mean, that's a small thing. And their reasoning behind that, they couldn't do ward camps for the young women because it would just be too much work for the men because a man would have to be at every young woman's ward camp, and they just didn't have time in the summer to do that one camp was all they could give us. Yep.

Jen [02:39:13] Yeah. Because you're climbing mountains and white water rafting and the girls are in. In long pants with tents that we erected, making crowds and meals that we. We make every meal. That's right. And yeah. So I just couldn't. I never recovered from that meeting.

John Dehlin [02:39:32] Mm.

Jen [02:39:33] I mean, that was in December. Ryan was getting ready to go on her mission. But yeah, that I couldn't. I really. That meeting was a dagger to me. It hurt my heart so deeply, consciously around truth claims. No, no, no, no, no. Equality. That Was it?

John Dehlin [02:39:54] Something's not right.

Jen [02:39:56] Women are not valued. That was what I started. Like, that was.

John Dehlin [02:40:00] That was news to you.

Jen [02:40:01] Yeah, I know it's embarrassing to say. Yes, it was. But like I said, once I saw it, I saw all the things in my past, too.

John Dehlin [02:40:10] You couldn't unsee it.

Jen [02:40:11] Yeah. And I would. I. I just. I mean, I was so upset. Yeah. It hurt me so deeply. And I'm like, what? Yeah. So anyway, that was a really, really big moment. And that happened before you left on your missions. I'm sure I told. I told you about that right when it happened. I feel like I told you about that, but maybe not. I don't remember, but those are just words I'll never forget.

John Dehlin [02:40:38] Yeah.

Jen [02:40:38] It's your job to make suggestions and get revelation and all those things. You have that chance. But we make the final decision, and it's your responsibility to get on board. Right. And I was like, that's not gonna work. Something about that is not working for me. Yeah. Which. Can I just say, I love that with. I don't know if people are familiar with, like, internal family systems or parts work. I don't know if. But like, the idea that we have different parts inside us. And so you're all prepping before the meeting. It's like, you're obedient parts, which is, like, very much a protector. Part of it, to have you feel loved or acceptance or be part of a group that you're fitting in with is like, telling the other part, like, your spirited self, like, okay, and I just need you to do this.

Jen [02:41:25] And all we need from you is just. And then, you know, in the meeting, it's just sort of like, that part's like, nope, I'm driving. Yep. Totally not going to work. Totally, totally. And I was like, I'm so. I'm a good person. I think my confidence in who I was as a member of the church had grown. Yeah. Because I was like, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing. I am doing everything. I go to the temple. We go to the temple every month. We.

Jen [02:41:49] Family prayer, family home evenings, teaching our kids, doing all the things. Everything that we were asked to do, we did. And so I. I had kind of that confidence in me now. Or like, yeah, I couldn't be steamrolled over as much, or I didn't have that. Like, oh, you probably know better than me because you're a better member and, you know, more like, I'd done enough. I lived a truly obedient Mormon life long enough. To feel like I had confidence in that, I guess a little bit more than before. Yeah. If that makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:42:17] Or you had become prideful, one of the two.

Jen [02:42:19] For sure, for sure, for sure. I'd let off half enough. I mean, the tattoo could have done that or maybe the other earring I put in, but. Yeah, because that's how that goes. Absolutely. Exactly. All downhill from. Yeah, yeah. Put that earring on, you're gone. You're a goner. That's right.

Daughter Preparing for and Departing on a Mission

John Dehlin [02:42:36] So is it time to go to the mission?

Jen [02:42:37] Ryan's mission? Yeah. I think we talked about the temple, because I know her temple experience was a really big topic.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] Okay.

Jen [02:42:44] So Andy and I went to the temple a lot. But the more and more I went to the temple, even though at the beginning I didn't have any problems with it, problems did become a thing. The more and more we went, the more I was like, did you hear that part about, you know, like. And I'd be like, that seems weird, right? Or when they change something, I'd be like, oh, that's nice. They changed that. But that's weird that they changed that. And I didn't know about the history of the disemboweling yourself. I didn't know about that. I don't know anything about that.

Jen [02:43:16] And so when things would change when I was there, I assumed these are, like, the first time things are changing, you know? And I was like, that's weird that they would change that, even if it is more preferable. Say it makes it shorter or changing clothes less or whatever.

Jen [02:43:29] And just as time went on, the more and more we went, the more and more I was bothered by the temple and started disliking it. And on the way home, I would complain about Andy. You know, I just. I'd be like, what is it with Eve and the way that her behavior is? Or what is it like Satan is like? And I just. Nothing started not to feel right to me, but of course, it was like, I'm so prideful. That is my own pride. I need to really, like, just keep going back so that I can find the joy there that everyone that I'm supposed to be finding.

Jen [02:44:00] And a lot of times we would only go and do initiatory because that was the part that I enjoyed with the women. And I felt that my mother in there, you know, like, all the women in there and that.

Jen [02:44:11] I don't know. I just. We would do that sometimes, but every time it got harder and harder for me to go, and I would complain more and more, and poor Andy, he's just such a. A great sounding board, but he's just like, I love it. You know, he has no.

Jen [02:44:24] He's just happy as a clam. So when Ryan was getting ready to go, I thought, okay, this is going to be amazing, because Ryan is so good and so faithful and so wonderful and has lived her whole life being obedient and doing everything good, and she's gonna love it. Well, yeah, we know a little bit of him.

John Dehlin [02:44:54] For those who didn't, and everyone should just pause, go back and watch Ryan's and then come back. But for those who just want the short version, what happened, Ryan?

Jen [02:45:04] It was very traumatic in the way that I, in my mind, I felt like I was in a cult. It was like the first time in my life when I ever. Which I don't really love using the word cult. And like I said in my podcast about my story, I feel like it can be a very general term now, but just tying that word to the church I had grown up in and the environment that the temple is, it was just like shell shock. And I nearly had a panic attack in the temple because it was. Everyone was wearing white. All of the words being said, the handshakes, the movements, the things that I thought were weird about other religions was happening within my religion.

Jen [02:45:59] So it was just panic moment. But everyone I loved was there who loved me and was supporting me. So it was just kind of a mind blowing and earth shattering moment for me.

John Dehlin [02:46:16] And for those who didn't see your awesome interview, just summarize in a minute, like how you were experiencing Mormonism up to that point. Were there cracks developing or were you all in until that temple experience or somewhere in between?

Jen [02:46:30] Yeah, I would say I had questions for sure. I had been going to byu, Idaho, and that experience wasn't great for me. I started having a lot of questions about polygamy and church history, especially surrounding, like, African Americans in the priesthood and this kind of church history things. And then the LGBTQ community with my brother, who I loved so much. So there were questions, but my parents were so good at keeping discussions opening and being willing to answer questions in an honest way.

Jen [02:47:03] But they were always turned back to the church. And within myself, I always found answers to my questions, whether it be God will take care of that, if not in this life, the next life. And it was just very church based. My whole world was built around the church and I was very obedient. Everything I would say, I was very obedient. Okay, so I was looking forward to it. I was Excited.

John Dehlin [02:47:30] Okay.

Jen [02:47:30] Because so much is built up to the temple being, like, the epitome of your life as a member of the church. You're making these eternal covenants, promises with God, which was huge. I mean, that's sounded like a beautiful thing. And everyone I loved partook in that and enjoyed it. So I was excited. Yeah. Yeah. And then.

John Dehlin [02:47:56] So how'd you. Did you. Did you find out after Ryan had a bad temple experience?

Jen [02:48:01] So, I mean, obviously I was beyond thrilled. I mean, the fact that I never got to go through with my mom and be in the temple with her, that I got to be there with Ryan was like. Honestly, I thought it would be, like, one of the greatest days of my life. Right. To get to share that with her and be there with her. Her and see the joy for her, even though I struggle deeply with being there.

Jen [02:48:24] So I looked at her during this, where we're sitting in there, and I. She did not look right. And that's what she says. I kind of looked over and took her hand. I was like, are you okay? And I. I just kind of remember her going, like, yeah. And I was like, it's gonna be okay. Like, I didn't know what was going on, but I remember thinking, okay, this is weird that she's. And I tried to get her to go up into the prayer circle with Andy, because that's what you do. And you did. Panicking because I'm surprised I was able to get up out of my chair, but because I was like, that's what you do your first time.

Jen [02:48:58] And your dad's here, and, you know, that's what, like. And we got through, and obviously this lush room. Everyone's there waiting for her. Her and talking to her. So I just kind of take backstage. We get into change, right? And we're in the. In the dressing room, and I go into her space and, sorry, this is just all work. It's so hard for me because I was like, I see her, and she is sobbing, and I'm like, honey, what is wrong?

Jen [02:49:27] And she's like, what was that? Yep. And I was like, the other thing about all this is so much like, she is me and I am her. And, like, yeah, that's a good question, because I'm wondering what the hell is all this, too? But I've never been allowed to express that because I thought I had so much shame over my feelings about it.

Jen [02:49:49] So I just saw her and her saying, what was that? And just sobbing and sitting, like, not even able to stand. And, like. And I was like, it's okay. Like, you never have to go back if you don't want, you know, because I'm thinking you received your own endowment. You don't ever.

Jen [02:50:04] And I was like, let's just kind of get, you know, Grandma, Grandpa and my sister and her husband were there, and dad. So it was like, we're gonna go get food. You'll feel better. So, of course, I'm sure we were fasting, you know, beforehand, and, like, let's go get food.

Jen [02:50:19] And. But the whole time, when we have to eat and stuff, Ryan was just. She was pale. She barely spoke. And as we're walking into the restaurant, I pulled, like, my stepmom and my sister aside and was like, that wasn't good for Ryan, so let's just kind of keep it. Yeah. And they were like, what's wrong? And I was like, just. Let's just not really talk much about it. So we try. I tried to make sure that she wasn't put in a position where she had to. Right.

Jen [02:50:42] And when we got home, that was where her and I sat on her bed together. Right when we had come out a few weeks earlier to Utah, me and my stepmom, and taken Ryan shopping, and we'd gone to Cune or and gotten Ryan, like, her dream temple dress and done all these things to make it so it would be so beautiful and, like, get so excited for her, and.

Jen [02:51:03] And she just sat there on her bed sobbing and was like, what was that, Mom? Like, that was not. That was not. Like, it had nothing to do with, like, God and Jesus. Like, where was Jesus? Like, where.

Jen [02:51:17] Where was love? Where was. Like, what was that? And I was like, it's really. It's a really hard thing. Like, I don't. And she. And then that's when she said, like, I don't know if I can go on a mission. And I was like, you don't have to.

Jen [02:51:33] Because another thing I haven't mentioned is, like, I really didn't want Ryan to go on a mission. And of course, I had a lot of shame. I would have never told anybody that. I never told her. I never told anybody. But inside, I did not want her to go on a mission.

John Dehlin [02:51:46] Did you know that, Ryan?

Jen [02:51:48] Could you sense it?

John Dehlin [02:51:50] Could you sense it?

Jen [02:51:51] I feel like then I could as well, but I. I wanted to. There was just so much pressure that I was putting on myself.

John Dehlin [02:52:01] Yeah.

Jen [02:52:02] Do you mean leading up to that, or like. Like, leading up to. Yeah, I wouldn't say, like, it indic. It, like, pushed me to make one decision. Or the other. But I do feel like I could see sense a struggle with me leaving and going on a mission. Yeah. Well, let alone we wouldn't. We would be separated for a long period of time without the ability to talk to each other freely, which is something like. I mean, we talked daily. Yeah. So. Yeah. And I think part of me also, I. I didn't want her to leave because I didn't want her to be gone for 18 months.

Jen [02:52:35] And also, like, your education. You care so much about your education. Just. Just like, that's your mission. We talked about that before. Like, being a nurse is your mission. You touch people's lives and you share love. Like, I just didn't kind of want her to walk away from that. But also, she hated byu, Idaho.

John Dehlin [02:52:49] Yeah.

Jen [02:52:50] And I knew that. And I thought. I don't. I don't know, like, if a mission is going to be. Because, again, we were very devout. But we were. We were. I mean, looking back now, we were more liberal members, I would say our belief systems, the progression. Yeah. More progressive.

John Dehlin [02:53:06] Not.

Jen [02:53:06] Yeah. Not liberal, but a more progressive life. Like, we lived all the rules, but when it came to, like, the way we lived and the way we spoke and stuff, but we weren't like, hardcore. And we tried not to shame. And, you know, so I thought, oh, I don't know how this will work for her. And I just didn't want her to go. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:27] Yeah.

Jen [02:53:28] I don't know. And I thought, oh, I'm such a. I'm such a terrible mother. I would never, like, who would ever think that everyone loves their kids to go on missions. And I just felt I had. I felt bad about that, you know, inside myself. But when she said that to me on the bed, like, I don't know if I can go. And I was like, you don't have to go. And she's like, but everyone is expecting me to go. And I was like, the people who love you will still love you. And she's like, mom, like, everyone is expecting me to go. And I was like, okay. Yeah. But something changed in me then as well, because I went. Maybe it wasn't me.

John Dehlin [02:54:05] Right.

Jen [02:54:06] What do you mean? That's big. And that's a big one for me. I've had to really come to terms with that. Is like, maybe there's something actually wrong with the temple. Maybe there isn't something wrong with me. Because every time I would leave the temple and feel upset or frustrated or bothered by it, I thought, that's a me problem.

Jen [02:54:22] That's a me Problem. Yes. Or any time it sounds like you were met in life with a situation where there was extra suffering. Yeah. It's like you've. You've kind of stated you'd go back to that story of, like, well, we did do the perfect version. That's on me. Yeah.

Jen [02:54:40] And so when Ryan didn't like the temple, and Ryan hadn't been like, I was. She had done all the things she was asked to do, and I thought, maybe there is something wrong with the temple, and maybe it's not me. Yep.

Jen [02:54:56] Again, like, I could. I could forgive. I could see myself through her more. Like, I could always be hard on myself, and I've fit in this box my whole life, but trying to see how what it was doing to her set me free in a way. Yeah. Because I went, no, no, you're not going to hurt her. You know, like, hurt me. Yeah, exactly. Which is so unfortunate. I think a lot of women, we do this, but it's beautiful, too, because our kids give us permission to love ourselves in the end, you know? Yep.

Jen [02:55:26] So that was big. That was really big. And I just. I never went back to the temple after that. Never once went back. And Ryan, on our mission, she's like, we went to the temple. And I was like, what'd you think? She's like, it was terrible, but I'm still going to keep going back. I was like, well, you've already received your own endowment at this point. You don't necessarily, necessarily have to go back again if you want, of course. That's really just not true because it's, like, just shoved down your throat. It's. The only faithful way to live, is to go all the time. And as a missionary, you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Totally.

John Dehlin [02:55:54] Imagine a missionary. I'm gonna stay back. Why not?

Jen [02:55:58] Lost my recommend. I'm good. Got flushed on the toilet on accident. Yeah, but I just kind of meant, like, in your life, if you don't like it, like, it has no bearing on you're. Yeah. It's not made me a better person, you know, it's not enlightened me in any way. I mean, I love being with Aunt. And he's like, but I love being there with you. I'm like, oh, I love being there with you, too. When we get to be together, when we're sitting, waiting for the session or like, being together is beautiful. It's quiet and, you know, like, that's lovely. But, like, the temple ceremony itself, just over time, time and time, it just became more and more and more Uneasy and not right for me.

Jen [02:56:34] So that was a really. That was huge for me. Yeah. And also I was like, oh my gosh. She didn't like the temple. Like, how is this? And I remember her saying, like, I'm going out to love people.

Jen [02:56:46] That's what I'm going to do. The temple is kind of irrelevant. I'm serving a mission so I can love people. I can just tell them that they are loved and that Jesus loves them. And I was like, okay, she's got to be fine. That's right. You know, like, that's her mission. And she's so good at that and she's so full of love. She's going to do great, you know? Yeah. So then she left on a mission.

John Dehlin [02:57:06] Yeah. So how was that for you?

Jen [02:57:11] It was hard. It was very hard. And then when we sent her off, she didn't have a phone or any way to contact anybody. And so it's like, okay, well I hope you find someone at the airport to give you a ride. And like it was, it just felt unsafe. I felt like I'm just sending you out. Like there's no one to care for you. And they don't even. You can't even have a phone to call someone when you get to the airport. Airport. And like you're. We aren't from here. We don't know anyone. We don't know the airport. We've never, you know, it's just kind of like. It was scary for me. I didn't like it. And so abrupt. Yes. To go from this connected place to like, I would imagine you don't even have a phone to know that you arrived there safely or that you. Yeah, very abrupt.

John Dehlin [02:57:51] I just have the realization. We often say the mission is the single most cult like thing about Mormonism from the standpoint of being a missionary and all the rules. But it's also the single most cult like aspect of Mormonism from the standpoint of they just take your kid away for two years and they get your kid and you don't really get to talk to them.

Jen [02:58:11] Yeah. Only on their terms. Only on their terms. Yeah. Yeah. And that even did happen because at first Ryan and I would like send her messages over messenger, just like pictures of us doing something or something just during the week. We wouldn't contact each other and she wouldn't really respond back. But. And like a couple weeks in she was like, I'm gonna need you to stop sending me stuff. Like only on Monday, only on P Day. It's like too hard for me to see that during the week. And I miss you guys so much. And so it wasn't so much like the rule, but she realized, like, I can't.

Jen [02:58:39] Yeah. See you enjoying your life. Yeah. Like, I have to cut that off. So. Yeah. So that definitely. It was like it had to be on their terms. And they obviously do that for a reason. Yeah. And there's such a rhetoric around, like, mission presidents and their wife being like, your mission parents. Like, they are your parents for those year and a half, two years.

John Dehlin [02:58:58] And that's a classic tactic of high demand religions or organizations to do their best to sever. Yeah. Or weaken ties between adherent and their family.

Jen [02:59:08] Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she called me from the MTC and sobbed. It was like they gave a talk about lgbtq. And it hurt my heart so deeply. And all I could think about was trace her brother. And I was like, I'm so sorry. And even when she was on the mission, and I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I told her before she left, you can come home anytime.

John Dehlin [02:59:36] Yeah.

Jen [02:59:37] You do not have to stay if there is something going wrong. You want to come home, you can come home. I will come and get you. Please don't feel like you have to stay. I said that before she left just so she knew, like, and I would. I printed out poems for her. Like, I just didn't want her to forget how loved she was. And I just had a feeling maybe she would.

Jen [02:59:56] I didn't know what was to come, but I just printed out pictures and I made bookmarks with lyrics of songs that we loved. And I just wanted to send her so that she wouldn't forget who she was here, you know? Do you know, it's kind of reminding me of this fact that you always kind of lived a different version of Mormonism. And even when you went to Utah to Provo, it was not a fit for you. The closer you got to the actual, like, place where the adherence kind of part stepped up, your discomfort in your own experience grew. So much so that you went back.

Jen [03:00:38] You took. Chose actively to go back to a life and a person, and. Right, that. So I'm wondering too, your discomfort, even initially with Ryan deciding to go, if there was this, like, innate distrust of what would happen if you didn't have control, because part of this was like, your home life.

Jen [03:01:03] You got to filter some of that. Totally. Right. And say your version of it and live it within our family. Yes. But now Ryan is going to a place where you're not you don't get to do that. She's having the experience right of now being in very close proximity to this pure form where adherence is everything, you know? Yeah. I mean that is so intuitive and so right on. I mean I had never thought about that before before but I mean she'd gone to byu, Idaho and I saw how she suffered and how she was treated and how the experience was so hurt her. And that's another form of like me going to Utah's hurt and me going, well you don't fit in that environment.

Jen [03:01:44] That is not for you. You are above all, you are better. Your heart is good, your soul is pure. Like, you're right. You're right. It's exactly right. And I think I had fear over that over like. Like one of the things. One of the things I sent with her is like a. A lyrics of a bookmark from our Jason Mraz lyrics. And it's like your home's inside of you and you can always go home. And I just didn't want her to forget her heart and soul. And you're right. I'm guessing it probably is from that deep rooted like my own experience. Yeah. And knowing like that when I went to Utah that was not what I found.

Jen [03:02:21] Yeah. Is even if they had were like living it on the outside more like I felt like I was kind of not a better person. But like my. I was like I like who I am. Like I like the people like the person I am. And it doesn't fit here. And part of that makes me glad,

John Dehlin [03:02:37] you know, you were always looking back. You were always kind of allergic to Mormon orthodoxy.

Jen [03:02:42] Yeah, for sure. I think so. And I honestly, I give my mom credit for that because that is not the way she loved me. And as I've. I've recon. Done un. Deconstructed so much, I've thought everything that I have. All the confidence I ever had to make decisions that I look back now that I'm proud of came from her love for me. Yes. It was never conditional. That's right. And she always would say you are the most. You're the most amazing daughter I could have ever dreamed of. And in that she knew I wasn't perfect. I wasn't living the Mormonism that I thought maybe she wanted me to, but she just.

Jen [03:03:17] I'm so proud of you. I love. You're such an amazing. You have a beautiful heart. Like she loved me in such a beautiful way. And I just believe throughout my life if I ever found confidence to do something to follow my Heart. It came from the way that she loved me. Yeah. Without expectation. That's right. You know, and that was just like the greatest gift that I've ever been given in my life is being loved by her in that way. Right. And what I tried to do for my kids, you know, I. I saw Ryan and I saw just. Yeah. So I think you're right on that. I think I had a feeling she wouldn't fit.

John Dehlin [03:03:53] Yeah. Because when then you're in the. Probably subconsciously, the interactions with the patriarchy, with the bishop, with the state presidents.

Jen [03:04:02] Oh, yes. That was playing a big brain. Now you had exposure to that.

John Dehlin [03:04:05] Now I'm basically giving her over to the patriarchy. And will they take care of her or treat her like I was treated?

Jen [03:04:12] Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. I was just gonna say, you don't know what you're gonna get when you leave on a mission.

John Dehlin [03:04:17] Yeah.

Jen [03:04:17] You don't.

John Dehlin [03:04:18] Yeah.

Jen [03:04:18] And I think you're right. That experience being in the stake was like, after that meeting, especially when it just all fell, everything I was trying to hold together with all the pretty ribbons, like, they all just burnt to the ground. And I was like, these aren't good men. Yeah. Or.

John Dehlin [03:04:34] Or the system's making them.

Jen [03:04:36] Yeah. The system is not good. And, like, you know, I think I was. I. You know, for sure, right away with Morant's mission president, I was like, you don't actually have to do what he says. Yeah. And I also feel like you had your own experience of what Ryan was saying, which was like. Ryan was like, I'll go to love people. Well, that was you in that calling, talking to the men, saying, but this is out of love. Like, let's do this thing because we love the girls or we love matter. Right. And then you were shut down, and you saw how that matter particularly valued.

Jen [03:05:13] Yeah. That wasn't the point to love them. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so. Yeah. I mean, right away. And I. So she called me from the npc, kind of crying and being like, I'm really struggling. And I was like, you know, you can come home anytime.

Jen [03:05:29] And she's like, I'm going to try to stick it out. You know, she. That was the only time where she wasn't like, 100%, no, I can't come home. But she was like, I'm gonna try to stick it out. I just need to get to California so I can start loving people. I just need to get out of this mtc. And she did have wonderful people around her at the mpc, which I was so grateful for people who she could share her heart with and that seemed to kind of have having the same experience as she was. So I felt a lot of comfort in that, knowing that during that time, she had.

Jen [03:05:56] Was with really good people in her district or whatever it's called in the npc. So it was all like, just let me get to California so I can start loving people and, like, doing what I came to do, you know? Right.

John Dehlin [03:06:07] So when did the wheels start falling off the wagon for you?

Jen [03:06:10] Yeah. So she got there, and they called and let me know. And just from the very beginning, I mean, she went to. Got there in, like, end of January, in 2020, and then March, everything closed down. And she would call me every week, call us as a family every week. And usually we would talk as a family. And then for maybe the last 15 or 20 minutes, her and I would go in a room separately, and her and I would just talk. So she would put on, you know, she would tell them about what we're doing and tell the kids about, you know, a new companion or where they went and the beach and the weather and California's so beautiful.

Jen [03:06:42] And, you know, we're from California, but we had, like, our friends were there that we had known that Ryan grew up with, you know, and just things like that. And then her and I would go in the room and talk alone, or I would go in the room separately with the phone and. And she would cry and say, I'm really struggling.

Jen [03:07:03] You know, things like the Christ, like criticism would come up and how her mission companion was just constantly criticizing her all in the name of Christ, like, criticism. And. And I encouraged her, you know, maybe you should talk to your mission president and just let them know how it's making you feel.

Jen [03:07:20] And then she's like, okay, maybe I will. And then the next week, she would come back and be like, sobbing. But only. And only when we would get alone together, and she would say, he told me I was prideful for, you know, or what did you feel at that point when you. Oh, you cannot even imagine. Yeah. I mean, fire.

Jen [03:07:43] How dare he? Does he not even see you at all? Does he not see you? It is not hard to look at Ryan and see.

John Dehlin [03:07:52] Yeah.

Jen [03:07:53] The heart in her. And I just was like. I would just say, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, you know, And I saw her shrink and shrink and shrink every week. Yes. Do you feel like she got farther? Oh, gosh, it was devastating to watch. And then she would say, oh, we can't we got this rule that we can't now take naps. And she was exhausted physically. You know, she doesn't sleep well. She's like on these. On these pillows, these beds that are so uncomfortable in my back. I'm in so much pain in my back. She's just like Annie in that way. They just have these, like, very bad backs. And. And. And she's exhausted. And I could. I mean, literally she was just like, deteriorating. And I would say, like, you can come home. And she's like, you know, I can't. It started.

Struggles on the Mission and a Mother's Concern

John Dehlin [03:08:48] Go ahead.

Jen [03:08:49] Sorry.

John Dehlin [03:08:49] Do you mind jumping in about how you're just. Your part of the story in parallel to what she just expressed?

Jen [03:08:57] Yeah, I think in my story, I also share this as well. But those moments when I would get to just talk with my mom alone, it felt like everything would come apart. Like, I was having trouble sleeping. I was restricting food. I was sitting in these hard wooden chairs every day doing phone calls. Because it's during COVID you're stuck in your apartment. My companion wasn't willing to go outside and go on walks. So I was inside all day, every day.

Jen [03:09:35] I was very much anxious and depressed, I would say, But I wasn't allowing myself to feel those things, or I would just be shoving them down. So every time I would talk with my mom, it was like everything would spill out, all the things I would be feeling. And it was like the one moment when I would be able to be authentic. But then at the same time, I was really fearful of losing myself. And I was realizing that that was happening because of what I was being told by my companion, by my mission president.

Jen [03:10:09] And just this feeling of being prideful and that being me was wrong in their eyes and hence God's eyes. Right. So I was losing myself. And that made me really afraid. And obviously I was only talking to my mom 15 minutes a week. So it was. That conversation wasn't long. Like, it would just end. I would be crying still, and they would both get off crying, and she'd go, mom, I have to leave at 7. I'd be like, honey, please don't. I wouldn't. I never said, like, please don't go. But it was like, I'm so sorry. I love you so much. Like, you're like. And then I. It was just like, cut off. It was terrible.

John Dehlin [03:10:49] 15 minutes. I didn't know there was a 15 minute.

Jen [03:10:51] No, it was an hour. But, like, we would talk with a family and of course her siblings and everyone. Everyone's there and tell us about what you're doing and we're talking to this person, or we would tell. The kids. Would tell her. Because, you know, my kids are very close, and they adore Ryan. She adores them, like. And so they'd be telling her about what they're up to. So we'd have, like, a family chat. But I could see what was happening. And so the last 15 minutes, I would pull away to another room and have a private conversation with her. Yeah. Because I felt like that she needed.

Jen [03:11:16] That she needed just to talk with me for a little bit, you know, and vice versa. So your experience of seeing Ryan, as you kind of describe getting further and further away, you know, what was that like for you? And were you, like, trying to have Ryan do different things? Were you trying to, like, did you get to a place of just feeling, like, kind of desperate?

Jen [03:11:44] Yeah. I mean, really, what I would say was, like, try to build up the courage. Go talk to your mission president about this, because, you know, I still want to feel like he's going to give you the benefit of the doubt. He's going to do what he needs to do to help you. He's going to see that this. Christ, like, criticism is, like. Criticism is like, destroying your soul, that she's criticizing you constantly. You know, she's going to see that you need rest. He's going to see, and, like, if you. If you go to him with humility and a true desire, like, he's going to hear you.

Jen [03:12:10] He's going to do what it needs. That was my hope. And then when Ryan had that experience, of course, time and time again, multiple times, she'd be like, I went to him, and. And then you're like, okay, now the structure is. It's not even, like, not supportive of that. It's like the structure is actually actively harming.

Jen [03:12:32] How did that affect you? And what were you, like, what were you thinking then in the phone calls? I mean, I. I honestly say, and I always say, always feel like this might sound kind of dramatic, but I. Ryan's mission was the worst 18 months of my life.

John Dehlin [03:12:45] Yeah.

Jen [03:12:46] It was terrible. Yeah. I just wanted to grab her and hug her and be like, I will help you. And there was literally just nothing I could do. Yeah. And she was literally tearing herself apart into pieces to become a shell of herself. Yeah.

Jen [03:13:10] And I just was like, you know, I would tell Andy, like, she could come home, and he's like, she can't. Because he understood that part of Ryan, that perfectionist, that when you do something, you do it 110%. And I'm just. I don't. That's not me.

Jen [03:13:27] Yeah. I'm free thinking and like, if this isn't working for me, then I'm good to just be like. Like, I'm gonna kind of do it the way I like to do it or. I don't know. I. He saw that. He sees that in her because that's. That's a lot. Who he is is like the. Once she's committed, like, there's no way she could leave. There's. And I said that once, you know, you could come home, like one of her darkest times. And she's like, there's too much shame, Mom. And I was like, no one here will shame you. And she's like, no, not from you guys, from the people here on my mission. And just my own personal shame. I would never forgive myself. You know, it was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:04] If a person with bad faith were to say, you were just being an over involved helicopter mom, she was learning independence and you were struggling just to give her independence and to become an adult. Yeah, I know that's probably really insulting.

Jen [03:14:18] Yeah, no, I understand that. I mean, and. And I did get that a lot. I tried. You know, I. I'm a very open person and kind of a vulnerable person. I'm willing to talk about things that I'm struggling with or having a hard time with or whatever. So I would open up to people and be like, Ryan's really struggling. And I mean, the amount of dismissive and gaslighting comments I got was upsetting. Oh, yeah. No, it's meant to make them strong. And I was like, no, I get it. I'm not a helicopter mom. I mean, Ryan's been at school for two years. She's very independent person.

Jen [03:14:46] Yeah. You know, I. As close as we are, like, she's incredibly independent. She's been at school. Like, it's not. It's not that these things are, like, hard, like, to make her better. This is causing harm. That's right. This is harming her unnecessarily.

Jen [03:15:02] Not. It's not doing. It's. It's literally just like killing her. Right. Yeah. And so. But people were like, oh, no, I didn't want to be at my mission either, but I stayed and I'm really glad I did. And oh yeah, I wanted to die on my mission. And then I made it through and I'm so glad. And I'll just be like, great.

John Dehlin [03:15:22] What?

Jen [03:15:22] The cycle continues. And I think you can say what you want, but when we get to also these Places of just really definitive health crisis. Okay. A fibroid bursting. Yes. So we haven't even gotten to that yet. Yeah. So my question is, did you know about that in real time?

John Dehlin [03:15:43] Well, we don't.

Jen [03:15:44] Yeah. I haven't quite gotten there. I haven't quite gotten there yet because. Way further. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's far. It's after I've left the church and I haven't left the church yet. Okay. All right. So Covid hits and. Which is perfect timing because I. Even at church, I would. I'd get up, I have to leave and be like. Because Andy saw how I was treated in this calling. He saw how the women were treated. And then they like, took the names away from the young women's and gave them like, oh, the age 14ers because, like, they took away my maid and beehive. And he's like, wait, so we don't even.

Jen [03:16:11] The girls don't even have a name anymore. Like, they're just like a number. So he was in the Bishop Rick, and he was the first counselor bishopric while I was in the stake young woman's presidency. When Ryan left on her mission, he was in the bishopric and he was noticing also things. But Andy is just such a loyal and happy go lucky and like, you know, I'd say things like, did you hear what they said in sacrament meeting? And he's like, oh, I wasn't really paying attention and I was just enjoying the spirit, you know. And obviously now I'm like, well, that's just called privilege. I understand that now, but he's just kind of like. Like, I'm just happy to be here and my family's here.

John Dehlin [03:16:41] That's all he'd been through.

Jen [03:16:43] He knows the stability is everything and we're doing really well and our family and our daughter's on a mission. You know, it's like. And he's not there. When I have these conversations with Ryan, you know, I will kind of say some things like this happen, but he's not seeing. Yeah. Heard soul diminish and be destroyed the way I am. Yeah.

Jen [03:17:06] Yeah. And so he's just kind of like, yeah, those things don't seem right and they're bothering me. But I couldn't. I had to, like, get up out of Sunday school and I just like, pretty. I couldn't sit through church anymore. Like, one time our stake presidency came to our ward and spoke. And one of the things they spoke about was how, like, you need to be faithful and do what your stake president is asking you to do, which was, like, very reminiscent of the meeting that I'd had. And I just had to get up and walk out. I was like, I can't even sit through.

Jen [03:17:29] I could owe. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You men are not like that. God. You know? And so then Covid hit, and everything shut down. So it was, like, perfect timing for me because I was like, oh, thank goodness. I can't even sit through church anymore. Right. So I started finding resources online. I found some feminist podcast podcasts, and I started listening to them.

John Dehlin [03:17:52] Which ones?

Jen [03:17:53] At last, she said it.

John Dehlin [03:17:54] Which is viewed as a faithful.

Jen [03:17:56] Oh, it was. I was. I was still a bleeding member.

John Dehlin [03:17:58] And it's a faithful podcast, so check it out.

Jen [03:18:01] And it was. It saved. They saved my life. They're beautiful women who have a lot of the same things I had. I didn't know anyone. No one was complaining about being a woman in the church or inequality. I could. There was no one for me to talk to really deeply. And so. And faithful feminists. That was another podcast. I don't know if that's still around, but it was two.

Jen [03:18:22] So they were two young women or, like, young adult women who would talk about the scriptures, but kind of, like, reframe it in, like, a feminist lens and say, like, well, we like to believe that there were women there. And then when they. You know, they were just the most beautiful podcast, and they saved me. Like, I would hike every day and listen to these podcasts, and I would just be out in the mountains, and I would just sob, and I would just be thinking of Ryan.

Jen [03:18:46] And I. I just. I was trying to find a way to stay. I'm like, how do I make myself work? How do I humble myself? How, as a woman, do I raise my daughters in this and my sons?

Jen [03:18:58] How do I continue on this way? And I was looking for any way possible. And I spent all so much time alone, and I would hike and just be out in the mountains and listening to these women on these podcasts, and they just. They were really like, a balm to my soul because I'm like, oh, there are other women who see this and are struggling. And I listened and listened, and I finally got to the point that I was like, but why are we all still here?

Jen [03:19:22] Why are these women staying in the church? Why am I here? Like, and how do I stay? How do I do this now with all this information I have about the inequality and all the harm that's being done, and everything I listen to is faithful up to this point, I was still reading my scriptures. I was still like, we were still having sacrament at home and passing the sacrament and doing all the things that covet. We did during COVID And right when I was kind of thinking like, well, how are they staying? Both of these podcasts, these women in the podcast did a podcast and they said, like, people are asking us, how do we stay?

Jen [03:19:58] And so we're going to talk about that. So they both did it. And I was like, oh, finally they can tell me, like, how I can make this work. And I came away heartbroken.

John Dehlin [03:20:07] Wait, they did? They both did.

Jen [03:20:09] They both did episodes on that. This is why we stay and why

John Dehlin [03:20:12] didn't why or how? Because those are two different things, I think.

Jen [03:20:16] Both.

Faith Crisis Begins While Daughter Is in the Field

John Dehlin [03:20:16] Okay, and why weren't those answers helpful?

Jen [03:20:20] Because they were like, we want to make change within our stand up and make change within our own little congregation. We want to have be a voice for the under served and underprivileged. We want to be able to. And I just went, that's not it for me. I've tried to do that.

Jen [03:20:41] I was in the stake young woman's presidency, which is as high as I could go. I mean, yeah, Young one's presidency. And nothing I did mattered. It didn't change anything for anybody. And I. I kind of lost my touch with those women at that point on those podcasts.

Jen [03:20:57] I was just devastated and I didn't know where to go from there. And I just went into like, such a dark place. And every Monday, like, Ryan would call and I would just be like, yes, I get to talk to Ryan. And every Monday she would be hurting and I couldn't share my hurt with her. So I did not want to add to her hurt.

Jen [03:21:21] I just wanted to be an ear that she could talk to. But I was just like, so utterly alone. It was such, like a devastatingly lonely time. And I was desperate. Like, I was like, I don't know. I don't know how I'm going to survive this. And there was this woman's or this women's group. Womb Sisters.

John Dehlin [03:21:43] What the heck is that?

Jen [03:21:44] Yeah, you don't know that. No, Sisters. I don't know if they're still around.

John Dehlin [03:21:48] It says Womb Sisters Women's retreat.

Jen [03:21:51] Yes, they had a women's retreat. Oh, I. So, and this is so funny because I'd actually been listening to. I had been watching or following Chelsea Homer on. On Instagram the time because she was still kind of faithful and trying to find a way. And I met her there. She was there. Okay. I think it was Womb Sisters. I think that's what it's called.

Jen [03:22:10] And I. I told Andy, like, I think I have to go to this because I'm. I don't know what else to do. And I didn't know a single soul. And I registered for, like, the day before, and I went out and I was just like, I was. I was so broken. I was like, I don't. How do I change who I am to fit in this. Yeah. And in this gospel that I love and I've dedicated my life to.

Jen [03:22:34] And I went to this. This group, this woman's retreat was out in Wyoming. So I drove by myself out there. I didn't know a single soul. And everyone was mostly from Utah, so they all kind of, I think, knew each other or came with friends or whatever. And I was just by myself.

Jen [03:22:48] And one night we're sitting there and I kind of still felt a little bit out of place. Like, I didn't know. I wasn't. I didn't want to. I was looking for any way to stay in the church. That's how I was. That's what I was going there to find a way for someone to tell me how to stay.

Jen [03:23:04] And there was a. There was a night and we were all. All the women were in the room. There was a speaker, and she was talking about, you know, the things that we carry and how they could be so heavy. And she's like, if there is something that you've been carrying and it's been hurting you and it's heavy and it's causing harm in your life, you can let it go.

Jen [03:23:30] And those words, like, changed my life. I was like, I can let it go. I mean, the thought had literally never crossed my mind to let it go. And I just started sobbing. I don't know. I. I don't know why I needed permission to let it go. I felt like, why couldn't I think of that myself?

John Dehlin [03:23:54] How about. Because you had been systematically. Conditions?

Jen [03:23:57] Yeah, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And I just sobbed and I said, I can let it go. I can let this go. And even in when I did that, I didn't mean, like, let it go like I was going to leave the church. I just meant I can set it down for now.

Jen [03:24:16] In the last 10 months, because it was like October and Ryan had left in January. I was like, in the last 10 months, I have carried this with me and I have done everything and it is so heavy. Yeah. And I think I just need to set it down for a bit. And that was what I planned to do okay.

Jen [03:24:33] And it was just the most peace I had felt in so long. When she said those words, you can let. You can let it go. I just went, I can let it go. It's like a reminder of choice. Yes. You're like, oh, wait a second. Well, because in the church, you really don't have a choice. Right. If we're being honest, there is no choice. There's hardly one choice that we can talk about choice. Right. Really, there's only one plan of happiness. Absolutely. And Right. One safe. One way to keep your kids safe. That's right. One way to be with them forever. And that was all I wanted. And I put it down. I drove home the next day, and that was the first time I ever listened to a Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [03:25:15] How did we come in the picture?

Jen [03:25:16] I think someone mentioned it in one of the talk. One of the little things that we listened to. Someone mentioned something about the podcast, Mormon Stories about an episode they listened to or something. And I thought, oh, nice. Mormon stories. I can listen to Mormon people's stories. And I love stories. I love people's stories. And the very first episode I listened to on my way home as I drove through Wyoming was, did BH Roberts lose his testimony of the Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [03:25:43] So Shannon Caldwell Montez.

Jen [03:25:45] Yeah, she was amazing. And I'm like, wow, she is so spectacular. And then I went, holy shit. Is the Book of Mormon not true, by the way? Like, I mean, honestly, I can't. I honestly can't tell you what I experienced on that Drive Home listing, that podcast. I was like, that was my thought. And I don't. I did not. I did not used to swear. I mean, I'm telling you, Ryan, tell ever in my life, even swear. No, never. We would turn down the volume of songs. Every song, if it said shut up or stupid or hell song would go down, back up. You know, Kelly Clarkson or Taylor Swift or any like, Jason Mraz. Like, 1 swear we're down and up. We did not. I did not swear. Yeah. And that was the thought that entered my mind. Holy. The Book of Mormon isn't true.

John Dehlin [03:26:35] Yes.

Jen [03:26:36] And I went, that actually makes a lot of sense. It literally made sense. And all the times that I had struggled to make it work and read it and went, I mean, there's obviously so much beauty there. There's a lot of beautiful things to be learned. But I would go, that seems awful convenient.

John Dehlin [03:26:57] Do you remember anything? Just about some of the pieces of evidence or some of the parts of the story?

Jen [03:27:03] I mean, just things like you know, the prophet will be the Joseph of a son of Joseph. And I was like, oh, that sounds like something a person named Joseph whose jabs Joseph would. Would make up. And I'd be like, okay, Jen, don't be so prideful and so snarky, you know? Yeah. I'd be like, no, no. Or, you know, that was it Son of Mosiah, where he just goes and, like, falls in love with a woman and, like, he's, like, destroyed because there's that beautiful woman harlot that, you know, tears him away. And I'm thinking, well, that seems convenient that she's a harlot. And, like, what if she's just. I don't. I just every. Just all the things that I had just been like, no, no, Jen, don't. Don't think that way. Yeah. All of a sudden I could drop all that and go, oh, yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [03:27:48] It's not true anything about the BH Robert story? If I know you, probably. Yes.

Jen [03:27:54] Oh, no, I do. Just that there was that meeting and that the leaders knew it wasn't true.

John Dehlin [03:27:58] The Secret Mormon meeting. Yes.

Jen [03:28:00] And then he brought it back and they sent him away and they brought it. He brought it back and saying, okay, here's all these problems, and then I'm going to present it to the leaders and they're going to go away and come back with all the answers. And two days later, they came back and they said, yeah, don't talk about that ever again. And then off you go. And I'm like, they know. They know it's not true. And they have always known.

John Dehlin [03:28:25] Yeah. Everyone get out your pen and pencil or your phone. Just write down Shannon Caldwell Montez, B.H. roberts, the Secret Mormon Meanings of 1922. That's an episode.

Jen [03:28:36] Yeah. Did B.H. robert loses? Yes. And she's brilliant. Okay. Right.

John Dehlin [03:28:41] There was 1. Did BH Robert who is his testament. There was another one that's the Secret Mormon.

Jen [03:28:46] And what's so beautiful and I admired and love so much about her was like, she also did. Who didn't go in looking. She was going into. Right. She was a faithful, believing member who accidentally got access to all these papers that showed her that was all a lie.

Jen [03:29:02] It was like, we're not going into it looking for it. We have. We've given our lives to something to make it true and twisted and contorted ourselves to make it true and contorted our entire lives around this to make it true. Yeah. We aren't looking for it to not Be true. Yep. Because that devastates your entire life, and that's not what we're going for.

Jen [03:29:24] But when the closet door creaks open and things start falling out, you cannot shut the door. Like, there's. It doesn't. It's not. It's so full of garbage that just a creek in the open of the door, things start falling out. The weight of it. It's virtually impossible. Possible. Yep. To start putting things back in the closet.

Jen [03:29:45] That's just how I felt. I'm like. I opened a closet that was so full of lies and deceit and harm, and I can't close it because it's. I can't shove it all back in there now. And even if I could, I don't want to, because now I see actual truth, you know? Yes. And so. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead.

John Dehlin [03:30:09] Well, I mean, that's a problem, because you've got. Number one, your marriage is based on the church. Number two, you've raised all your kids in the church. And number three, your daughter's on a mission. So, like, you're not. You know, that's gotta be like. It's gotta be these conflicting feelings of, like, oh, my gosh. That's the one possibility where everything all of a sudden makes sense. And, oh, my gosh, I can't do this to my daughter and what's gonna happen to our family? Right?

Jen [03:30:42] Yeah. Yeah. And even though, you know, that thought did enter my mind on my way home from that women's retreat, listening to that podcast, I still. I still didn't realize the gravity of all of it. You know, I still didn't realize it was just kind of like the creak of opening the door.

John Dehlin [03:31:01] That's right.

Jen [03:31:03] So I got home, and Andy and I took a walk, and I said, because he had seen the pain I was in. He saw how I was suffering. And he's like, what's going on with you? And I didn't even know if I could. I couldn't really talk to him that openly. I mean, we talked about, like, women's issues and stuff. And he saw it, but the pain. Like, I didn't know how to express the pain. And he would say things like, you're so angry all the time, like, what's going on? And I'd be like, I. I have a right to be angry, you know? And he's like, yeah, I know. But I think it scared him. Like, it was scary for him, which I understand. You know, I was scared of my own anger.

John Dehlin [03:31:37] Such thing as righteous anger.

Jen [03:31:38] Oh, no, no, no. That's on Satan 100. And I was afraid of my own anger. Why am I so angry? How do I get rid of this? You know, I. That was part of my whole thing is like, how do I get rid of all this anger?

Jen [03:31:51] And so I got home and I told him, I'm going to step away from the church for a bit, and I just want you to know. And he said, do you want me to step away with you? And I said, no, no, I. This is just. I just need to do this for me.

Jen [03:32:06] And he said, okay, well, I support you. And I said, you know, thank you. And he always says, I. I don't think I had any doubt that he would support me in that, you know? And I honestly, I don't know exactly the timeline, but I know very shortly after that, as I started, I guess when I said step away, it gave my. I gave myself permission to start listening to other things. And I stumbled across the CES letter, listened to a few more Mormon stories and things like that. And when I. But the CES letter, because that plant, the seed, had been planted, like, oh, my gosh, the Book of Mormon.

Jen [03:32:39] Not true. And then the CES letter came. And I mean, everything. The first vision, the plates, the rock and the hat, all the problems with the Book of Mormon, the fact that he was ignored and never received answers to these things, all these things, I. That was like a.

Jen [03:32:58] It's not true. This isn't true. And I was so angry and so scared and so thrilled and so heartbroken, and all the things like, yeah, things made so much more sense to me. Everything made more sense. And yet my entire life was built on this foundation, and I had taught my kids and drilled it into them their whole lives, and I was wrong.

Jen [03:33:41] And I tried to show stuff to Andy, and he's like, where are you getting this information? That seems. I don't want to listen to anti Mormon stuff. And it started to become, like, an issue between us. For sure.

Jen [03:33:52] He did not want to hear anything. I mean, we could say, like, oh, I don't like the way they're doing this, or I don't like the way they're doing that, or they don't like the way they're treating the women, but he could not go true. No. Yeah, no, Truth wasn't off the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

Jen [03:34:10] So how did you navigate that part? So with Ryan, honestly, it never crossed my mind not to tell her. Yeah, I mean, I. I feel I've listened to a couple. One like the one where the mom decided not to tell, and I feel like, gosh, that never crossed my mind. Ryan and I have always been so close.

Jen [03:34:31] I don't even know if I would have been able to not tell her. I just felt like I don't. Especially something of that magnitude. Yeah. And again, like, right at first, it wasn't like, I'm leaving the church. It was just, I'm stepping away. Right, Right. And I'm pretty sure that's how I framed it with you. Like, I'm stepping away for a while.

John Dehlin [03:34:51] Is that how you remember it, Ryan, you can tell us how you remember it.

Jen [03:34:54] Yeah, I mean, I think that is how you ordered it, but in my mind, it was like, oh, my gosh, my mom's not going to go to church anymore.

John Dehlin [03:35:03] And you were how many months in your mission at this point?

Jen [03:35:05] 10 months? Yeah, 10, 11 months. So quite a ways. Almost a year. So over halfway.

John Dehlin [03:35:14] And so. Oh, can I. Will you remember what you're about to say?

Jen [03:35:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:35:18] Okay. Okay. So, like, this is one of the heaviest questions that I get. It's the. It's the parents no longer believe, and it's do we tell our kid on the mission? And the no is what most often is concluded. Because it's like, it'll be disruptive. It's unethical. I raised them in this, and it'll destroy them. But they could also hate us. It can make them cut themselves off from us.

Whether to Tell a Missionary About a Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [03:35:50] Like, they would say, if the ethics are based around harm, it's just way more ethical to hide it from them. Let them finish their mission, not disrupt their mission, and then have that conversation when they get home. That's sort of a harm centered ethical conclusion that a lot of parents.

John Dehlin [03:36:11] But what that hides is the honesty ethic, which is like, you know, like, if it's wrong and they're like, spending two years of their life doing it, and, you know, and then you hide it from them. Number one, is that a horrible thing to do as a parent? But also, will they hate and resent you if they found out you knew and hid it from them?

John Dehlin [03:36:34] So the honesty ethic is, whatever the harm or not, tell the truth and tell your kid. So will each of you address that ethical dilemma from your perspective at the time?

Jen [03:36:47] Sure. You want me to go first? Yeah, I think because I saw that the mission had hurt Ryan so deeply and because she was struggling so much, in some ways, I wanted her to know she wasn't alone. I wanted her to know, like, it's not really working for me either. And I'M gonna step away for a bit because. So I need to, like, something's not working. And I. I think part of me wanted her to feel less alone. I wanted her to know, like, I mean, I wanted her to stop hurting. I wanted. I mean, probably in my core, I wanted her to come home.

John Dehlin [03:37:30] Yeah.

Jen [03:37:30] And give kind of her permission to be like, yeah, I'm stepping away. Maybe that will give her courage to step away if she needs to. Now, I didn't think of it any other way. I did not think of not telling her in the moment. I think it was kind of impulsive, but it was. It was.

Jen [03:37:50] It was authentic. Yeah. Again, Andy hadn't left, and I hadn't deconstructed everything yet. So in the moment, it was just like me just being honest with her and saying, like, I'm just struggling so deeply, like, I'm going to step away for a bit.

Jen [03:38:06] And she was, of course, so gracious. And when she was like, I trust you to do that. You will do what's best. I trust you in your decision making. Obviously. Now, I know she was hurting much more than that, but I felt like I'm just going to be honest with her, and that's just who we were. I didn't know any other way to have a relationship with her. That was the nature of the relationship. And she had been so open and vulnerable with me and what she. She had experienced on her mission and the pain that she had felt, and I just didn't. I couldn't have imagined not telling her for us.

Jen [03:38:35] Yep. Now, as things go on, I have regrets about how I moved forward with it. As I found more and more and more information and more harmful and absolutely disturbing information about the church, then I. Not sure I went about the right way.

Jen [03:38:55] But to answer your question, that is. That is. That's. That's how I felt in the moment and kind of how I felt. I feel now about our situation again. Doesn't mean it's right for everybody, you know? And I had a friend tell me when I was talking to her, I had one friend who really listened to me, who was a member. She was kind of partially active, but a good friend. And I was talking to her about what Ryan was experiencing, and what she said to me really hit me. And she said, because she had a nephew out on a mission. And she said, you know, what I'm thinking is that if my nephew was struggling the way Ryan's struggling, he would never tell his parents.

Jen [03:39:26] They would be like, quit complaining. Quit being selfish, and get back to work. She's like, they wouldn't, he wouldn't tell them if, if they were struggling, if he was struggling because he would not find a sympathetic ear. Yeah. And that was pretty powerful to me. And I went, oh, this is another way where, like, Ryan and I's experience is very different. Very different because she's opening up to me and sharing things, things with me, and she has someone to talk to and kind of express it. So even though she is bottling things up, there is at least one time during the week where she has someone to talk to and talk about her hurt.

Jen [03:40:01] Yeah. You know, and so it's just different. It's going to be different for everybody. Maybe some parents aren't safe for kids to complain about or maybe vice versa. I, I don't know. But for us, in that moment, I couldn't imagine doing anything different than just telling her. That makes so much sense to me.

John Dehlin [03:40:17] Okay.

Jen [03:40:17] Yeah. Yeah, ditto.

John Dehlin [03:40:18] And Ryan, from the. I mean, there's always. From the missionary standpoint, some missionaries might say, I'm glad they didn't tell me. I wouldn't have been, you know, ready. And then there's others who would say, I hate you for not telling me how. How were you experiencing and how do you reflect on that decision?

Jen [03:40:39] It's so difficult because I don't feel like there's a wrong or right way to go about it. I feel like, like you said, John, it's just case by case for me. It was like, earth shattering and it hindered our relationship, me and my mom and my families even, I'd say, just in the way that I realized I couldn't be authentic anymore because I wanted to be putting on a good face and like, oh, no, actually I am enjoying the mission. Actually am doing well. Actually, I'm baptizing more and teaching more lessons and doing all these great things instead of being vulnerable. So it made me bury the things I was feeling more and more, which ultimately led to a lot of suicidal ideation on my part and more severe depression symptoms.

Jen [03:41:35] Even though I was able to put on a good face and hide what I was feeling, but I was becoming further and further away from myself. But with that, I'm grateful that my mom was authentic with me because like you said, I just don't think there was any other way for us to be. Like, I just. I don't know what other way there could have been. I mean, I can. I can't imagine coming home and realizing, like, actually we left the church six months ago and how destructive I mean I, I think that would have just destroyed my trust and. Yeah.

Jen [03:42:22] Relationship with my family as a whole. I think that's such an important point to make. This idea of like the, the right thing to do, I think is so Mormon. Just such a Mormon approach. Yeah. Right and wrong. So not irrelevant. But it's like what does that even mean?

Jen [03:42:40] And also the nature of your relationship and you being in this really kind of unnatural state of living with a mission. I think I could so see the way you love and the way you care that if your mom hadn't told you and you knew she was suffering all that time alone when she could have shared with you that there would be feelings that. So it's just sort of like pick your hard, pick your pain. Because guess for sure there's just no way around. Totally. No matter what. No judgment for anyone either. Either way, this is just the way it worked for. It happened for us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:18] So people. But, but let's just say it's not about right or wrong decision, it's about evaluating the situation.

Jen [03:43:25] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:43:26] It sounds like, at least from Ryan's perspective, two consequences of no longer believing Mormon parents telling their missionary kid that they don't believe is that number one, the kid may no longer feel comfortable sharing what's really going on in their mission. Two, it may add to their stress and sadness and depression if they're experiencing that on their mission. And then three, which I'm sure we're about to get to, is it's gonna drive a huge wedge of distance between the missionary and the parents, possibly lasting even beyond the mission.

Jen [03:44:08] Yeah. Yes. Yes. Luckily it didn't last too long for us, so. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:44:16] Anyway, so those are things to consider then. From the non believing parents perspective, it's just, can you hide from your kids? Can you lie to your kids? Are you able to not be honest? Is that even within the realm of your possibility, your values or your framework as a human? Right.

Jen [03:44:36] Yeah. And the thing that's so hard about it is when you're experiencing it, especially right at the beginning, losing your testimony, losing your faith, you're deconstructing. It's so utterly devastating as you're going through it, it is so dark. There's so much despair and anger and grief.

Jen [03:44:55] I don't know how you would hide that from someone that you love or someone that you're close to. Like I'm thinking, how would I. So you know, Ryan maybe felt like she couldn't be her vault, her original self. Like I don't know how I would have faked it when I spoke to her. I don't. I don't.

Jen [03:45:13] You're so kind of finally coming into yourself in a way that you haven't your whole life in Mormonism. You're feeling things you've never been allowed to feel. You're speaking up for yourself and for other people who are receiving harm. Like, I wouldn't have known how else to, like, technically hide that from her. Do you know what I mean? But also, like, the sense of betrayal. And then you're seeing that Ryan is in a place now where it's like, oh, it's confirmed. You are not safe, and they do not care about you. So how are you not like this protect part. Oh, my gosh. Exactly. And.

Jen [03:45:50] And all that betrayal part, you know, it. I think that infuses that situation with this sense of, like, you are not safe. Get out now. Exactly. And I mean, I would. It. It. It shattered me that she was there.

Jen [03:46:06] Even if not more. If not already. I was. It was. Get out. Yeah. Tell me where you're at. I will come to you. Leave everything. There we are. We will go. I think I even said that before I actually left the church, because I'd be like, tell me your address. And she's like, I can't. I mean, you know, you don't talk about this, but I don't know where she lives. I don't have an address for her. I have. No way. If I send her something, it goes to the mission house and they get it to her. I don't know where she's at.

John Dehlin [03:46:35] Yeah. For never Mormon viewers and listeners, you're not allowed to know where your kids are.

Jen [03:46:40] Nope. And I would say, hey, send me your address. I'll send you a package. Or I put packages together for her, and she.

John Dehlin [03:46:45] I mean, you'll know the country or the state.

Jen [03:46:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Location of the mission home. And another thing I think we don't talk about enough is just how people. Because when I would tell people, like, Ryan's really struggling, and they'd be like, oh, her emails are so wonderful. And, you know, she said, we just read them for family home evening. And I was like, yeah, but you guys know that they're required to make them faithful, right? Every one of you who's been on a mission, you know that's a requirement. I mean, they're technically a red beforehand. And before they're like, they have to be faithful. And yet no one could acknowledge that, like, because her emails were so beautiful and wonderful.

John Dehlin [03:47:21] Yeah.

Jen [03:47:22] That she could be suffering yeah. You know, that was another thing that. But yes, because one of the first. I don't even know if it was an RFM episode or Mormon Stories episode where they talked about the MTC president who's molesting missionary sister missionaries in the. In the MTC basement. And I.

Jen [03:47:43] The amount of pain that that mission president had caused Ryan. Yeah. Already I would be like, give him the benefit of the doubt. He's probably doing his best. Maybe he just is overwhelmed. I always tried to be. Be not upset as soon as the church went down and I started learning about the things that men in the church have done. The abuse, cover up. Yeah. All the things in the way that they protect the men. I. I mean, my fury was, like, unleashed on that man. And there was, like, I don't hate a lot of things, but there was so much hatred and anger and just fury towards him and the harm that he'd caused Ryan.

John Dehlin [03:48:22] Yeah.

Jen [03:48:22] In the name of God. In the name of his priesthood and his godhood and his righteousness. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:48:27] Yeah.

Jen [03:48:28] And realizing. No, none of that's actually true. He's just actually harming her.

John Dehlin [03:48:31] Right.

Jen [03:48:32] That's right. Harming my child.

John Dehlin [03:48:35] Yeah.

Jen [03:48:35] Deeply. And it was. Oh, it was very difficult. It was very, very difficult. Yep. But I did feel her pull away, and I understood that. I understood that that was okay. Like, it didn't hurt my feelings. I understood that, like, in some ways, she kind of had to, like, because I. I felt like she was in some ways, doing it to, like, be kind to me, you know, she'd be like, oh, we're teaching a guy. He's real nice. But she, like, wouldn't go into detail, I think just because she realized, like, I'm struggling. And so she didn't want to be like, oh, we did this, or.

Jen [03:49:08] I don't know. I felt like she was being considerate of me in that way. Maybe that's not appropriate, like, reversal of parenting, but she. That's just who Ryan is, you know? So I feel like at first, a little bit, we tried to tiptoe around each other, so. Yeah.

Jen [03:49:26] But then. Yeah. Well, I would say even before finding out, dad left a little bit like, Andy. Andy was a. No. Like, no, I'm staying. I'm in the bishopric. I've committed this calling. I'm not. I don't want to listen to anything you say. And I started. It was just really difficult for me because I was like, how do you have a relationship? So I started listening to things on mixed faith marriage and trying to feel like, okay, Our marriage can work. It's just never going to be the same. It's never going to. We're never going to be able to be as close. Like, that's kind of how I felt.

John Dehlin [03:49:53] And is that marriage on a tightrope?

Jen [03:49:55] Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe you had them on your pod or, like. And I tried to be like, okay, but people make this work. And it's worth it, obviously, to me, to make it with Andy. And we never even discussed divorce or anything like that. It was just like, no, we can make this work. But he was like, church started back up, and he was going back to church and I was staying home. And we eventually told the kids. Like, I. We sat them down and I told them that I didn't believe in the church anymore. We told the other kids.

Family Members Begin Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [03:50:25] Did any of the kids leave pretty quickly after that?

Jen [03:50:30] Well, another quick, like, reverse story. In the summer of 2020, Callie came to me and Andy and was like, can I talk to you guys? Cali at that time was 13. Cali's kind of more of a mini me free thinker. And I. I knew her from, like, the age of three. That, like, oh, she's gonna follow my footsteps.

Jen [03:50:49] She's gonna probably be more like I was as a teenager, and I need to come to terms with that. And, like, you know, and she came to us, me and Andy, and sat us down and started crying. And she said, would you guys still love me if I didn't believe in the church?

Jen [03:51:05] And I. And, you know, like, then I was struggling. I mean, I was like. And we were like, of course. Of course, honey. But, you know, I think I said, like, but don't lose your relationship with, like, Jesus and the Savior. Like, keep that relationship, but we will always love you. And so, I mean, obviously she was into. She's very intuitive, though.

John Dehlin [03:51:27] Orion was on her mission.

Jen [03:51:28] No. Oh, wait. No, it was. No, I'm sorry. It was summer of 2020.

John Dehlin [03:51:32] Oh, yeah.

Jen [03:51:32] Yeah. So, yeah, it was like, during that time when I was, like, deconstructing kind of, but not really knowing it, you

John Dehlin [03:51:37] know, Even know what you were going.

Jen [03:51:39] No, no, no. Yeah. But she had told me before. Cal had said, like, I prayed, like everyone says to do, and I never receive an answer. And. And I'm like, well, sometimes so embarrassing. Sometimes no is no answer is an answer. You know, sometimes that means he trusts you to make your own decision or whatever. Yeah, how embarrassing. But I, you know, but then she would be like, but, like, all my friends in church bear their testimony about. They prayed and Then this happened. And I've tried that, and it never worked. It hasn't worked. And I've tried to pray that I would have this friend or. And it never works. And so I would just be like, just keep trying. So she just. She's just a very intuitive person. And so at 13, she came to me and Andy and said that. And we said, yes, of course. You know, so I've got a gay

John Dehlin [03:52:24] son, a daughter who's left the church, and now you.

Jen [03:52:27] You.

John Dehlin [03:52:27] You don't.

Jen [03:52:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:52:28] Believe.

Jen [03:52:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I. I want to say, like, Trey still believes. I don't know if you guys know anyone who's like, very high functioning autistic, but, like, he loves the rules and he will do them 110 and that structure and that, you know, like, oh,

John Dehlin [03:52:44] some gay Mormons are the most faithful ones.

Jen [03:52:46] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Trace and he'll just. Was going to cling to it, like, because that's all we've ever taught him, you know, and he followed the rules exactly. Like.

John Dehlin [03:52:56] Yes.

Jen [03:52:57] We're actually hoping to do an episode on kind of neurodivergence within and how it affects joining, how it affects also leaving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So fascinating. I mean, I can't even tell you some of the conversations we have with Trey since leaving of being like, well, you know, do you masturbate? And he's like, what's that? Yeah. And I'm like, you're 20 years old. Yeah. But we've never sat him down and told him. All he knows is it's wrong. He doesn't know what's wrong. He doesn't know even what you know. Like, it's just things are so different. The perception of what we think. People, we just gather information and, like, know what things are.

Jen [03:53:34] Like, that's just not his. How he works for him, you know? Yep. And try to explain. Yeah. So when I sat them down, told him it was because conference was coming up, and I was like, we're not gonna. I don't want to watch conference. And Andy's like, that's fine. I'll read it later. But I was like, we got to tell the kids we're not going to watch conference. So I sat them down and told them and Callie was like, oh, finally. You know, And Trace was like, I think because it was like, I can't get behind these things that I'm. That are being taught and I don't.

Jen [03:54:04] I've found out now information. Realizing that, like, none of it's actually true. And this is just. It's totally up to you. I support you, and I'm not going to tell you anything that I've learned. I'll let you come to me if you have questions. And I think Trace felt supported. So he was kind of like, okay, LJ is our youngest, and LJ is very artsy, and all that they would normally do in primary is, like, draw and paint. Like, bring their little art set and just be drawing in the back. So I think they were like, oh, cool. Like, yeah, you know, also pretty intuitive and kind of.

Jen [03:54:36] And our one son, Sam, he was the one who kind of just sat there staring, and, like, I could see he was hurting, and I was like, do you want to talk, Sam? And he got up and, like, walked out of the house and was gone for a few hours.

Jen [03:54:50] Came back, and I. Of course, my heart was just broken because I'm just like, this must be so confusing. Taught you this your whole life without even a question of a doubt, and then to come and say, like, actually, all this stuff you're doing in your life and all these goals that you've had and all the things that we've done every day and every. Every week of our lives, none of it's actually true. Yeah.

Jen [03:55:11] So. But he came back and hugged me and said he loved me, and we said, we support you if you want to keep going to church and stuff like that. So, yeah, Andy. So. But meanwhile, I'm learning a lot more about the church, and I'm worrying more and more about Ryan, and more and more harm is coming to her. You know, the thing with the abuse where she couldn't call and report the abuse, and, I mean, she called me just sobbing about that. How can I live?

John Dehlin [03:55:37] For those who didn't watch the episode. What's the 32nd on that, Ryan?

Jen [03:55:42] I. I saw child abuse happening within a home of someone I was teaching and serving and went to my mission president asking, like, what can we do to move forward? I want to call the police and send someone over there to help or even just check up on the house. And my mission president said, no, we're not doing that. Do not get involved. God will take care of them.

John Dehlin [03:56:10] Of the children.

Jen [03:56:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:56:11] Just magically, yes.

Jen [03:56:13] And I went to him again multiple times, asking about calling the police, checking up on them, because I was still thinking about them and worrying about them. I remember her calling and saying, like, I haven't. Like, I can't sleep. I can't stop thinking about those kids. And I was like, you go back and ask him again.

Jen [03:56:30] You know, Or I said, give. I said, give me their address and I will call. And it turned into him saying, like, I wasn't trusting in God enough, shaming her again. So, yeah. Yeah. So just, you know, I got. I became more and more. And then I listened to the episode with. Was it Stephen Hessen or. I don't remember if it was an episode or you just mentioned it. And I read the book about the bite model, and that terrified me. And I read through it, and I went, like, 90% of these are what Ryan's experiencing.

Jen [03:57:10] The cults. You know, the bite model is the cult. Like, a cult outline showing, like, if you're like, cult organizations that are. And I was like, okay, I can see the church is, you know, controlling behavior.

John Dehlin [03:57:22] Information, thoughts and emotions.

Jen [03:57:24] Yes, yes. And it has a list under each one. And literally 90% of them controlling their sleep control. I mean, everything. It fit the mission to a T. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Ryan is in a cult. And she is. And I.

Jen [03:57:45] She really. There's so many things she loved. She loved the people, loved her companions, all except for one. But, like, she. I know. I knew that there was beauty happening. I knew that she loved these people. It was the whole. It was the organization that was harming her, you know, and, like, also, like, the mission president, like.

Jen [03:58:03] And I was like, if I. Like, she could come. Like, she has to come home. She cannot be in this organization. And, like, this is a. She's in a cult. This mission is a cult. I remember you saying, I hope you will come home before Christmas.

Jen [03:58:20] Yeah, I sent her. So I sent her. I made a copy of the bite model and all the things underneath each label. It was like, you need to read this.

John Dehlin [03:58:28] Yeah.

Jen [03:58:28] And understand.

John Dehlin [03:58:29] Gosh.

Jen [03:58:30] Little bite model, Mormon missionary child. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:58:36] Information on cult awareness.

Jen [03:58:37] But do you know what I'm realizing too, though? That whole temple thing, you had, like, a mini moment, didn't you? Because, Ryan, you're not. You felt kind of not warned, not prepared. You have this whole experience where you're like, mom, no one told me that. What was that? What was that? And so you likely have some remembering of, like, oh, I didn't. So now you're like, guess what? You're on a slight model for you. Like, it. Truly, I. It came off wrong. And I. I kind of realized that. I think after I sent you the email, I, like, immediately sent, like, an apology email because I realized, like, afterwards I was harming her, but that was not my intention.

Jen [03:59:21] I was just like, honey, you can come home. This is not blowing my mind right now. This isn't good. That's right. The way they're controlling you, this is a cult. And what Ryan can say, that she thought about cult in the temple, but that. That had never crossed my mind. She never said that to me about the cult thing during the temple. That was just, like, a thought in her mind that I. The cult thing was all new to me. I had never even considered that.

John Dehlin [03:59:43] And in your mind, you're like, if I just give her the information, she'll understand.

Jen [03:59:47] She is in a cult right here,

John Dehlin [03:59:49] and she'll just want to leave. Yes. How was that? How did you receive that, Ryan?

Jen [03:59:54] Not well. Basically, she's like, don't. She's like, you need to stop emailing me and don't talk to me about the church ever. She said, I don't. I don't want to talk to you about the church anymore.

John Dehlin [04:00:05] And what's wild is you were almost literally dying, Ryan.

Jen [04:00:08] Yes. No, I was dying. Yes. And I was like, I. Paul, I sent it. I was like, I am so sorry. Like, it's not my intention. Like, I can see how this would hurt you, and that's not. I just want. I'm trying to, like, give you the information so that you can stop hurting. But that I understood. I started to very gradually, but kind of quickly see, like, oh, I'm actually harming her. Yes.

John Dehlin [04:00:31] And your relationship with her.

Jen [04:00:33] Yeah, but you were trying to give her the life. And then if she doesn't take it, you're like, but I'll know. I. I threw it to her. Like, I offered it to her. And what I hear is that you're slowly. You needed a process of, like, oh, my daughter's gonna ride this to the end no matter what. And Andy kept saying that, and even Ry would say that, like, I can't. I. I can't leave. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't understand. Like, that kind of baffled me. I get it more now. Honestly, I understand. Andy understood it because that's just the way his brain works. Like, there's.

Jen [04:01:05] She's never gonna come back. And I was like, oh, no, she can come back. But he was like, well, I know she can, but she won't. Yeah. Because he just gets that part. He gets that in her. That's how he is in so many ways and how he has always been. So, yeah, I kind of started realizing, like, I am harming our relationship.

Jen [04:01:26] And. But it was just the struggle for me, like, the back and forth. Like, she deserves to have this information. So that she knows what she's doing and what she's teaching. And once she said to me, it's funny. I can laugh about it now, but I know it wasn't funny at the time, but she's like, oh, we met this woman on the temple steps. I'm pretty sure she was a lesbian and, like, in a relationship or something. And you were like, she's wanting to know about the church. And you're like, we taught her the first. We first vision. And I said, oh, which one?

Jen [04:01:54] Yeah. And she's like, well, I said, well, because, you know, there's like 12 of them. And she was like, obviously the first one or whatever, you know.

John Dehlin [04:02:06] Yeah.

Jen [04:02:07] And it was just. It was a snarky thing for me to say, but it was like. And I kind of real. Obviously, I know now it was snarky, but I had just found that out, and I was 45 years old. And I'm like, there's more. What? It's like, it's just everything was a lie. And I felt like that I'm like, you're teaching someone a lie, and that's not you. That's not you. You would never do that. Which I think this is so difficult because it's sort of like you're relating to Ryan's. You that was at home and that self was. And even your relationship, I think you were trying to have the relationship that you associated. But the truth is, is like, that one's not driving. That Ryan is not the one on the mission. That me is gone. That her is gone. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [04:02:55] This is where Steve and Hasson talks about the cult's identity or the cult personality. That what they do is they break you down to build you up in the image they want. And so you're not. You're not dealing with the person at that point. You're dealing with what got created when they got rebuilt from within the Framework.

Jen [04:03:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:03:17] So they. They weren't dealing with you, right?

Jen [04:03:19] No.

John Dehlin [04:03:20] She wasn't dealing with you.

Jen [04:03:21] No.

John Dehlin [04:03:21] Right.

Jen [04:03:22] No. I mean, I. I don't even view that person as myself. Like, I still have a really hard time reconciling that. That was me.

John Dehlin [04:03:32] Yeah.

Jen [04:03:34] Because. And that just is an impossible situation, because that's why it goes back to. There's no right or wrong. Yeah. I mean, there's pain, like you said, Margi. Like, it's inevitable. It's just gonna be painful. Probably. Mistakes are gonna be made either way. Yes. We're all just. Yeah. Yeah. And I did.

Jen [04:03:55] I know Ryan talked about the time Cause like at some point Andy was like, that's kind of another story. But you know, he decided to ask to be released from the bishopric because a lot of his thing was like, I've made this commitment and I, I can't listen to what you have to say because I'm committed to my bishop and being his right hand man and doing everything I committed to doing. Because he's like that, that he's going to do it all the way. And we talked with a friend and they had said how, because in their mixed faith marriage that the husband had agreed to not have any like big callings that took away from family time just because he needed to find a middle ground with his non believing wife.

Jen [04:04:27] And that was such a gift. So Andy felt like, okay. And he is a really faithful man who Andy admired and loved. And so I think that gave him permission to like ask to be released from this calling.

Jen [04:04:38] And so as soon as he asked to be released, he came to me and kind of said like, okay, I, I think I'm ready to hear some of this stuff that you have learned. How long was that span? That was about three months. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because mine was like mid October and then that was like mid January. All right. And I played him. The first thing I played him because Andy cares. He's such a man of integrity and he really cares about the truth. Yeah. And I played him. RFM is literally like his first episode, which is a talk or a thing on the mantle is far, far greater than the intellect. Do you know that talk?

John Dehlin [04:05:18] And Andy was like, where he's basically telling the church education people that like, forget truth.

Jen [04:05:26] Truth is irrelevant.

John Dehlin [04:05:27] Forget history. No, like faith is more important than truth.

Jen [04:05:31] And you don't tell the truth if it's not faithful.

John Dehlin [04:05:33] Yeah.

Jen [04:05:34] And then like you basically you just lie anything. It only matters if it's as faithful. And Andy was like, so it's not true. Like none of this was about the truth. And I mean, he has his own story to tell, but he very quickly was like, yeah, yeah, no, I, I was here because I believe it was the truth. And then all the truth and the whole truth.

John Dehlin [04:05:55] Yeah.

Jen [04:05:56] And the only truth.

John Dehlin [04:05:57] Yep.

Jen [04:05:58] And if it's not true, then none of it even, you know, so. But we did kind of realize, like, probably we shouldn't talk, we shouldn't tell Ryan at that point. We didn't really do much talking about church stuff anyway outside of just like her experience and kind of what we were doing. So we were our, really our friend, our conversations Were already kind of shortened out, and we're like, there's no need to tell Ryan. Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's like she's. She is like. I mean, I knew she was holding on by a thread, even though we were disconnected in a way. I saw her and I knew.

Jen [04:06:31] And something else, what I had was starting to realize was that I was doing the same thing to her. Her. That I do it in the church was thinking that I knew what was best for her and thinking, well, of course she'll leave, because now I know it's not true. Now she should leave because it's not true. And realizing, oh, I'm actually doing the same thing I did before, which in the church, you think you know what is best for everybody and that there's one way and that you know the way.

Jen [04:06:56] And I realized how much harm I was doing and that I don't actually know what's best for her. And if staying is what she chooses, then I will always. Like it doesn't. So I kind of, over time, saw that what I was doing was really harming her and that I was doing the same thing, only in reverse. And I didn't. I wanted to deconstruct everything that was harmful that I had learned, not just leave it and do it in other ways. I wanted to really understand the harm that I had caused and how I had been manipulated and how, you know, I had used my ego and my.

Jen [04:07:27] All these things to, like. And I wanted to undo all that. I wanted to undo. Learn all of it. Yep. So that was kind of part of the process for me. And another reason why we decided not to tell her about Andy and the kids all just kind of left. It was like.

Jen [04:07:42] So when accidentally I told her. Do you guys remember that part about Ryan's story having the phone conversation and what I was saying to her? Because we had moved into a new house. We'd left our community and moved and moved an hour south. And I said, you know, dad and I are just. We're doing everything we. We can to make sure when you come home, you have a place where you feel loved and, you know, welcomed. And it's like, feel. It will feel like home to you, and we never want you to feel like. Also because at that point, I had picked up on the fact that, like, she was being told not to come home.

John Dehlin [04:08:14] Wait, so explain that to those who didn't hear the other. If you want to, Ryan.

Jen [04:08:19] Yeah. I mean, at that. When my mom left the church and I told my mission president and things Were getting pretty difficult for me with talking to my mom and my family. My mission president started bringing up the idea of not calling on Mondays, which is preparation day, the day we would call families. And then also on top of that, going home to someone in my family who's still a member of the church, whether that be my grandparents or going right back to school at BYU Idaho. So he started creating more distance between me and my family and making me feel more isolated and abandoned from my family. Like they were choosing. I don't know, like they were. They weren't choosing me. They weren't choosing the church. It was like my identity and the church were one. So then, like, there we were abandoning. Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [04:09:22] If they're rejecting the church, they're rejecting you.

Jen [04:09:24] Exactly.

Daughter's Mission Ends and Coming Home

John Dehlin [04:09:25] So then your mission is president saying, when your mission's over, don't go home to your parents.

Jen [04:09:29] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:30] Go home to a faithful, friend, believing member.

Jen [04:09:35] Yeah. And she had said something to me, and she said, I think when I'm home for my mission, I'm just gonna, like. I think I'll just go straight up, back up to school. And I went, but you hate BYU Idaho.

Jen [04:09:50] And I think I just. I. Something in me just knew, like, she's being told not to come home because that was so unlike Ryan. And I'm like, I don't care how much she's changed. She hated BYU Idaho. Right. You know, and I just. I just had this intuition. Then I had a conversation with my stepmom who was like, kind of like Ryan's, I guess, confidant a little bit. Just because since we left the church and grandma was still a member, so. And I had said something to her, like, I get this feeling that maybe they're telling Ryan not to come home.

Jen [04:10:24] And she said, you're right. That is what they're telling her. And I was like, okay, cool, cool. You know, and then I left her house and I was like, I was so broken and so angry, but I just realized too, like, the position Ryan was being put in, and I kind of realized, like, it's just not the place for us to be, like, telling her what dad's going through or what Trace is going through or what we're all figuring out, you know? So we decided not to tell her.

Jen [04:10:53] I was like, it doesn't really matter anyway. You know, she gets home, she already kind of knows I'm not, so. But when we. I said that, I said, me and dad are trying to make sure that you have place to come home to that you will feel Loved and welcome. And just like, it's home. And Ryan said, wait, has dad also left the church?

Jen [04:11:12] And I was just like. I mean, I wasn't going to lie. And I just said, yeah, he has. And she. She said, has everyone left? And I was like, yeah, it was terrible. And she just started, like, wailing.

Jen [04:11:31] And this is when she had the concussion. And she was in a dark chapel by herself, and she was literally wailing. And I was like, honey, honey, it's okay. Like. And I. She wouldn't talk. All she was doing was wailing. No, on the phone. And I was like, you're alone. You need to get someone to be with you. Because I was so afraid.

John Dehlin [04:11:59] Tell us what the concussion was. Just remind us.

Jen [04:12:02] Yeah, I got, like, hit straight on with the soccer ball during, like, a youth activity. Had, like, a huge bruise over my entire eye, a big cut on my eyebrow. But it was one of the times when I was told not to go to the doctor and just kind of. And there was no care. And she was telling me how, like, oh, it's like P Day. And so we were all outside the. The park playing volleyball, and I was sitting in the sun and my head hurt so bad, and I was just

John Dehlin [04:12:27] like,

Jen [04:12:29] can you get no care? You know, like, can I give you? Like, you go to the. I don't know. And then that happened on that same phone conversation. It was never my intention to tell her, and I don't think I realized what the effect it would have on her. Yeah, but she just wailed and wailed and wailed. And then she said, I gotta go. And I was like, please don't go. Please do not hang up. Up. And she's like, I gotta go at seven. Because you only have from six to seven.

John Dehlin [04:12:58] And can you tell us what you were feeling when you were wailing? I mean, I know that sounds dramatic, but, yeah, it's.

Jen [04:13:05] I feel like I just disconnected from my body. I mean, I just crumb. Yeah, I. I just crumbled. I just remember getting off the phone call and just, like, crumbling to the ground and, like, not being able to get up because it just felt like complete abandonment. I was just alone, like.

Jen [04:13:32] And I think also I was realizing, like, what am I even doing this for? Because one of the big blessings you're told of serving a mission is your family will be blessed. Like, this is the time when you're giving all those blessings that God is holding out for your family. Like, they'll receive them.

Jen [04:13:50] So it was realizing, like, what's the point of me Even being here, like, I'm apparently failing because my family have left the church, and now I'm completely alone and in eternity, I'm eternally alone. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I thought about. I mean, probably. I think that probably came. Yeah. A little bit later, but it. Just feeling alone and I was already so broken that it was just the last straw.

John Dehlin [04:14:19] I don't even think people can imagine if they haven't been a missionary, what it's like to deal with how hard a Mormon mission is and then to, you know, to think that you're trying to bring a bunch of other people to the gospel when all of your own family have now left. How do you go on?

Jen [04:14:40] And when you left on your mission, your dad was in the bishopric and your mom was in the stake and Omens presidency. Totally. We were incredibly devout. Exactly. Yeah. And let's just add the concussion.

John Dehlin [04:14:50] Yeah.

Jen [04:14:51] As well. Being in a place where you had a concussion and you had spent a day in the sun. Yes. In pain. Like these things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:00] And had the cysts even come yet?

Jen [04:15:02] Not yet. That was, I think, two months after that is when I had the cyst

John Dehlin [04:15:07] rupture and ovarian cyst.

Jen [04:15:10] My ovarian. Yeah, an ovarian cyst rupture. And was once again told not to go to the doctor. And no, no, no medical care given, no testing, no anesthetics, no ibuprofen, which doesn't even touch the pain, does nothing. No. It's excruciating support. Yeah. So, I mean, heating pad. Luckily I brought one from home, but, yeah. I mean, nothing. And it wasn't Monday, so I. My mom didn't know. My family didn't know until after the fact. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:50] And this is sounding like a hellscape.

Jen [04:15:54] Well, you know, when I. When people. Or if I want to try to criticize myself over, like, oh, I shouldn't have, maybe I harmed Ryan by telling her this or this. I just think, no, no, that is not on me. That's right. They harmed her. Yes. And, you know, I'm not saying it was right or wrong, but I was trying to help her, save her, remove her from this devastatingly harmful situation and that. I mean, it did harm her when I was doing that. I definitely accept that and know, like, there's better ways maybe I could have gone about it, but. But ultimately they were the ones causing the harm.

Jen [04:16:31] Yes. You know, I mean, that's right. I mean, it was. It was just absolutely devastating, that conversation. I mean, I was the same. I just she literally just hung up on me. And I was like, what do you do with that? Yeah. My child is concussed and have received no care and has been out in the sun all day. I just.

Jen [04:16:52] And she's, like, broken on the ground, and I'm helpless, and it was. It was terrible. And the next week, I just waited for the next Monday for her to call, and I'll never forget it. Sorry. I got an email that morning. It was like, I love you so much, but I'm gonna take a week off from calling. Yeah. And I just.

John Dehlin [04:17:22] What was that about Ryan?

Jen [04:17:26] I mean, I was told not to call home, and I. My mission president was having me set goals to stop contact with my family. So it was just the inability to advocate for myself whatsoever, like, even connect with anything I wanted was, like, not an option at that point.

Jen [04:17:46] So I was just doing what I was told, and I did that. I mean, I just didn't call. And probably you were trying to protect yourself. I mean, that last conversation had been so utterly devastating. I had no blame on her whatsoever.

Jen [04:18:02] I just saw, like. I guess I just thought, like, I'm losing my daughter. Mm. I'm losing her. Like, really, really losing her. Yeah. And all along, the whole reason I'd ever even stayed in the church is so that I would never lose my family.

Jen [04:18:26] I mean, they were everything to me, you know? And I just. I felt like I've lost her. And I also. I was so sad because I was like, her siblings look so forward to Monday. We all wait for Monday. And here my behavior had harmed also my other children, because now they don't. Also don't get to talk to Ryan today.

Jen [04:18:52] And I. I remember that day so vividly. And I was taking Trace to college. He was just going down to do uccs, which is just. We were doing a tour, and I had committed to go with him. So we were going down there, and I wore sunglasses the whole time and cried and cried. I could not stop. Cr was. I could not stop crying.

Jen [04:19:13] I was like, jen, pull it together, you know? And I couldn't. I just kept thinking, like, I don't. We won't talk to her, and I've lost her. Like, she's gone. Like, I heard her too much. It was terrible. It was so terrible. The whole week was terrible because of what had happened and how we just hung up, and I had no way of knowing. Is she okay?

Jen [04:19:35] Is she okay? Like. And I had no way to know. And then when she emailed me, and it was such a kind email, it Was like, I love you. I love you all. I just. I can't call today. I'm.

Jen [04:19:49] I'm hurting, and I need space. And it was just utterly devastating. And I realized then, too, I had a friend ask me a couple weeks ago, did you ever think about going back? And I was like, only once. And it was that day,

John Dehlin [04:20:10] and I

Jen [04:20:10] was like, I would go back if I could right now. I would give everything up and go back and live my life as a member of the church. And I knew I couldn't. I knew I couldn't. And that was really, really hard to face. I would do anything for my daughter, anything. But I can't go back. And so it was just really, really, really pivotal moment of realizing I could lose my daughter to this church, but I can never go back to the church. Like, even for her, I would do anything, but I can't do it.

John Dehlin [04:20:55] Wow.

Jen [04:20:57] Yeah. And it did change a little bit for me in the way that I had to start really rethinking my relationship with Ryan and fully accepting that maybe she would never come relieve the church and that I wouldn't be at her wedding and that I wouldn't, you know, Andy wouldn't be in her baby blessings and all these things.

Jen [04:21:18] And that had to be okay. My love for her was bigger than that. So it was like the most brutal few weeks of my life. But it. It taught me something really important, that I will support her if she stays in this church no matter what, and that I won't let it take my daughter from me.

Jen [04:21:43] And I think it changed a little bit after that. I don't know if you felt a change in that, like, after that experience. Experience. If you're not calling, like, I think both of us. The next week when we talked to each other, it was a pretty tender.

Jen [04:21:57] And we both apologized. I remember Ryan saying, like, I'm so sorry. I just needed a week. And I was like, you don't ever have to apologize. We love you. We'll always be here for you. And just trying to make it, much less just trying to make it the whole situation, a softer situation for both of us and letting her. Not wanting her to feel guilt or shame for being on a mission or for. Or afraid to come home. I just. We. I just felt a turning point that was a big turning point in that I needed to be okay with whatever she chose, no matter what. And it changed a lot for me. Yep, Exactly.

John Dehlin [04:22:34] It does feel like Mandalorian says, that is the way.

Jen [04:22:37] That is the way. There is the. That realigning that's what doing. I'm hearing you say, like a clarifying of what. Which is what happens when sometimes you have like rock bottom moments or moments of real suffering of like, what is most important and what is within, like my value set, but also my realm of control. Like, what can I actually do here? Yeah. And that's what it feels like for that. Yeah. Yeah. And I had been doing quite a bit of exploring as far as the books I was reading, the podcasts I was listening to.

Post-Faith Resources, Healing, and Moving Forward

Jen [04:23:13] Secular Buddhism was like such a huge, beautiful tool for me. I just remember listening and thinking, where has this been all my life? Right. This is what I should have been taught my whole life. It's so beautiful and so freeing and aligned so much with my heart. And it just felt so pure and like authentic to my heart and soul. And I'm like, where has this been my whole life? And so I was really trying to learn. I read A New New Earth and that helped me.

Jen [04:23:43] Yes. Just brilliant book. Understanding ego. I didn't know anything about ego and how it's you. How we manipulate, how we need an enemy, how we. All these things. And I, I just, I wanted to undo all that and not play into any of that even on the other end, you know, I wanted to really, truly. So I was, I was on my healing

John Dehlin [04:24:05] journey a little bit Untamed. That's Glennon Doyle.

Jen [04:24:08] Oh, yes, Absolutely love that. And I think I read that as a, as a bleeding member, like when I was still struggling and just like the empowerment for women. And that also helped me be like, wait, something is so off in this church, you know, so, yes, I love Untamed.

John Dehlin [04:24:21] I love Breaking Down Patriarchy by Amy.

Jen [04:24:24] Oh, yes. Oh my gosh. Breaking down patriarchy. It was just one of the most amazing things I'd ever heard. And I remember talking to Andy about patriarchy and he's like, do you hate men? And I was like, no, actually, patriarchy hurts men as well. So let me teach you about it, you know, and just the information that I thought, where has this been my whole life? How has none of this been taught to me? This is just literally like life saving information. This knowledge is like life savings information that everyone should have. Just very calm. Like, I just thought, how did I live my whole life without having any idea about this stuff? It's such beautiful stuff.

John Dehlin [04:25:12] What a healthy if.

Jen [04:25:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:25:14] I envision like this alternative universe where successful religions actually teach super healthy things. And it's like secular Buddhism, Eckhart Tolle.

Jen [04:25:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:25:24] They're breaking Down. Patriarchy. Glennon Doyle.

Jen [04:25:26] Yeah. Brene Brown. Losing Shame. Yeah. All the vulnerability.

John Dehlin [04:25:30] Imagine if we were taught all that stuff. Healthy marriages, you know, dvt.

Jen [04:25:35] Emotional regulation. Emotional attachment style. Yes. All of that. I read hundreds of books and all of those books I read and I just went.

John Dehlin [04:25:47] And you had to leave a religion.

Jen [04:25:49] Yeah. And I. And I'm like, I don't have to tie myself in knots to make this stuff make sense. This just. Just literally just speaking to the core of my soul. You know, I thought. And I. And I realized, like, it was so freeing to me. I am. I am a very much a free thinker where this was much. A much more difficult situation for Andy, who's like a follow the rules type of person. He had a much more difficult time deconstructing stuff to me. All this information felt so beautiful to my soul. And all my free thinking self was like, yes, yes. All of this is so beautiful.

Jen [04:26:27] And I don't have to do the mental gymnastics to make it work. It literally just is good. And I can take what I want and leave what I want. And I can. That's right. Read three quarters of this book and go to the next. I don't know. It just all felt so beautiful and freeing. And you can read it and then try it.

John Dehlin [04:26:43] Yeah.

Jen [04:26:44] And it. Does it work for me or does it not work for me? Like, I love the. Yeah, yeah. The freedom was beautiful for me.

John Dehlin [04:26:51] Then you list falling upward. That's Richard Rohr.

Jen [04:26:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:26:54] And then you've got tattoos of the. On the heart.

Jen [04:26:57] Oh, yes. That's such a great book. It's written by the man. He's a priest or of some kind, who goes into the inner city and works with all, like, the most worst of society people, you know, the. The drugs and the people from prison. And he completely changes their life or under privilege. Privileged. Yes. All the underprivileged and in the communities. And he just goes in and loves them. And they just, like changed our life. And a lot of it was God. And one thing I will say I did because God was just really hard for me to. Is I would cross out anytime he said God and just put love.

Jen [04:27:30] And he would say, God should soften and change our hearts. And I would just put love soften and change our hearts. Because when I started deconstructing patriarchy, it was like, oh, okay, I see there's a quote. That's when God is a man, man is God.

Jen [04:27:47] And I will never forget that woman who says it. She wrote, there's a couple Books I read of hers. Oh, the Dissident Daughter. Oh, Sue Monk Kidd. Yes, Sue Monk Kid. That's in one of her books. If God is a man, then man is God. And I just thought, even now, anytime someone speaks of God, they say he.

John Dehlin [04:28:10] I did this morning.

Jen [04:28:11] Hits me every second.

John Dehlin [04:28:13] Yes.

Jen [04:28:13] And I go, oh, how funny that your man is still. Your God is still a man. So you may have deconstructed and this and that, but God to you is still a man. And until you can deconstruct that, we have a problem. For me, I have a problem.

John Dehlin [04:28:26] This morning, I was like, maybe God's non binary. And y' all were all over that.

Jen [04:28:29] I was like, oh, heck, yeah. So, yeah. I mean, all of that just. And all of it just felt beautiful. I didn't have to contort my brain to make it work or tell myself, quit being prideful and just believe it, or put your opinions aside and just do what you're told. Like, I didn't have to do any of that. I could just say, this feels so good to my heart, and I can live it, and it's beautiful, and I believe in love. And that's all I ever really wanted to do was like, that's why I did it all along, was love. But it wasn't. It wasn't true, you know? Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:03] And then you just. Because you have it on the list, you have Mormon stories, personal stories, stories on the list.

Jen [04:29:07] Yeah. I mean, they saved my life listening to people and their stories and how they tried everything to stay and how they left and what they did to deconstruct. And I actually have spoken to a few of the people. Like, I reached out. Do you remember the Hughes, Marlena Hughes?

Jen [04:29:26] Her husband worked, or I think he worked as a. He was a bishop on, like, a Native American. And they left and. And her. Her just touched me so deeply because the question she asked herself when her husband left and she didn't want to hear anything about it was like, wait, do I trust this man that I know and love and why maybe I should listen to him? And I told that to Andy because he didn't want to hear anything I had to say. And I was like, I think that's what hurts me is, like, I feel like you're not trusting. And I reached out to her and thanked her for, like, her story, and we talked for a little bit, and just every story I heard was like, healing balm to my soul, because everyone was so devout and loved it's the job, the gospel, so much.

Jen [04:30:10] And gave their lives and taught their children and abandoned themselves to do these things. And they came out and they found, like, integrity and leaving. And I just. I didn't have anyone to talk to. I didn't have anyone to go to. It was just me. And it was very lonely. I mean, I lost my whole community. You know, we lived there for 15 years, and I lost. Lost all of that.

Jen [04:30:33] I actually had the incredibly devastating experience with a friend. Right when we had moved down. I had a friend who was a dear friend, like, truly dearly a dear friend. And she had asked to come down and visit, and she knew I had left. I won't. I won't say names, but we were very close with them, and she knew I had left. And I was talking to her, and I was so devastated about what had just happened with Ryan, with, you know, I finding out that she was being told that we aren't safe and that she shouldn't come home and how, like, I was just pouring my heart out to my friend, and we get back to my house, we're taking this hike, and she goes, you know, if I'm being honest, you aren't actually safe for her.

John Dehlin [04:31:13] Oh.

Jen [04:31:15] And I was like, I thought I had some grace for her mission president, because I thought, he doesn't know me. He doesn't know the love I have for Ryan. He doesn't know the connection that we have. He doesn't know me as a person. Maybe he does think I'm not safe. Maybe he thinks I'm a bad mom or a terrible. I don't. I. I tried to have some grace for him. Yeah. But this person knew me. Yeah. Knew me. She knew me and Ryan. She knew how much we loved each other. She knew the connection. She was in my home. She saw that, like, yeah, we're just us.

Jen [04:31:45] And she said, yeah, actually, you aren't safe for her. Wow. And I was like. And I said that. I think I said, like, but you know how much I love Ryan. And she said, well, yeah, I loved my brother, too, but he left the church, and I've never felt safe around him anymore, so she will not be safe here at your house.

Jen [04:32:03] And I. I was. It devastated me. Yeah. I mean, utterly devastated me. I've. Yep. Because I thought she knows me, and even she thinks this, you know, And I was fragile. I mean, I was very, very fragile. Yeah. At that point. And for someone that you care about to say that, I mean, absolutely. Yeah. So it's very lonely. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I think that filter on the other side, when you're being authentic and then you're showing up. So you're showing up kind of in a new way, but then everyone else is kind of showing up now. It's like this filter. Right. Where you get to see people in a new light. It can be brutal. Oh, boy, it sure is. Yeah. And I wanted to say, too, when I first left.

John Dehlin [04:32:46] Left.

Jen [04:32:46] When I first left the church, I had contacted a few women that I was Relief Society present over when. When they left, and that I was. I was like, I wasn't a good friend to them, and I had to reach out to them. And one of them, I reached out multiple times on Facebook, and then they finally reached back out and said, can I ask what this is about? Because I said, could I take you to lunch or. And I'm thinking, well, yeah, I don't blame her for being scared to meet me. I'm sure she thinks I'm just trying to convert her, be whatever I've done to hurt her.

Jen [04:33:11] I don't blame her for not wanting to get together with me. Yeah. You know, and I had to reach out to them and just say, I am so sorry. Yeah. I'm so sorry if I harmed you. Now I know what you were going through when you were leaving, and I. I'm heartbroken that I wasn't a better friend to you. Yep. You know, that when you needed me, and that was a really lovely experience to be able to, you know, them to say, we forgive you and we love you and we're here for you. And the people that everyone turned their back on are the only people that were actually there for me when I needed. Needed the support more than anything, you know? Yes. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:33:50] So, you know, referring people, Ryan, to your episode, again, things got you. Is it fair to say you almost didn't survive your mission?

Jen [04:34:03] Yes, very fair to say that. Yeah. Yeah. It's. Say it was especially towards the end, and I obviously had the ovarian cyst rupture and then was just having suicidal ideation. Pretty. It was a daily struggle. Yeah. I'd say I was not in a good spot when I came home, but I had to be because I was being told that I was the one who needed to save my family. So once again, I came home, but wasn't really able to be authentic. And I honestly, I don't think I knew how to be authentic at that time because I was just so far from myself.

John Dehlin [04:34:50] What made you decide to go home versus somewhere else, Faithful?

Jen [04:34:56] I mean, there must have been something within me knowing that like, my family loved me and I loved them, and. And from the very start in the mtc, I was looking forward to going home and seeing my family and, like, hugging them and being with them. So it was out of the question that I wouldn't go home to them.

John Dehlin [04:35:16] Okay.

Jen [04:35:17] Even at that point, I just. I wanted to be home.

John Dehlin [04:35:21] So how'd that go? Crazy, coming home?

Jen [04:35:25] Wild. I don't. I don't have much memory of being home, especially the first, like, what was it, two months when I was. I don't have a great memory during that time. I just know that I was very devoted to the church institute every week, church every week, scripture study every day, prayer. Like, I was all in, like, hardcore. So that was difficult for both sides because I was telling them, please do not talk about the church with me. And obviously, we knew that at that point, and we tried. We really. At that point, I was so grateful she was coming home, and all I wanted was to make a safe space for her.

Jen [04:36:06] That was all I wanted. We kind of started a new tradition. Instead of, like, praying before meals, we'd go around and everyone say something they're thankful for and things like that. So that it. Even though we weren't going to do the traditional things, we wanted to make their traditions, we wanted to make new things that were familiar. You know, we gave. I printed out a bunch of pictures from her mission and put them in her room and hung them up. And so. Just so that she would feel like, you can be Mormon here and safe, and we're not gonna in any way try to dissuade you or, you know, we're not gonna talk bad or we're gonna keep doing all the same things.

Jen [04:36:40] I mean, we hadn't really changed anything, you know? Yep. Ryan talked in hers about when we went and she was released and how that was really, really hard for her. And it was absolutely, like, one of the. It was terrible.

Jen [04:36:55] We all went and we were like, okay, let's get dressed up. We went to this guy's house. You know, he lives in a mansion on the hill like most stake presidents, and was, like, white as hell, you know, just.

Jen [04:37:05] I mean, I'm white, obviously, but I just mean, like, the typical Stake president, like. And his house was massive and all the Christ pictures and all the statues, and we were just, like, trying to smile and grit it. And Andy's like, of course. This is where he lives. When we drive up, you know, we're trying not to be judgmental or mean, but we go in and he starts talking About Ryan, he's like, just this light that you have. As long as you stay faithful in the church, you will continue to have this light. And I was like, don't you dare. Don't you dare claim that light as your own.

Jen [04:37:40] That is hers. Oh, I. So she has nothing. You know, that light has nothing to do with you and your priesthood and your church. Like, she is remarkable on her own. And that light, she was born with it.

Jen [04:37:54] You don't own that. And by the way, I would know. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it was just like, it was so difficult for all of us. And then he took Ryan up in a room by himself, which already bothered me, because I'm like, he's not safe.

Jen [04:38:08] You know, I used to just think, of course he's safe. Like, I'm thinking, why does this man have Ryan in a room alone? You know, Anyway?

John Dehlin [04:38:13] I used to think that was the safest.

Jen [04:38:14] Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Send him in freely and close the door with no windows, you know? And now it's like, oh, but. And we just sat there as a family and kind of look at each other, and I think, like, Callie had tears in her eyes, and I was like, we're doing this for Ryan. We are doing this to support Ryan.

Jen [04:38:33] You know, this is her, like, matters to her, and we want to support her. And he came down and was like, as long as you all just, you know, find faith. And. And we were all just, like, trying not to, like, stare daggers out of our eyes in his face, you know, and it wasn't him, obviously. He's an innocent bystander, but we were like, no. And we just. I just saw Ryan, and we all just drove home in utter silence, and it was like, obviously, we were just all hurting.

Jen [04:39:04] Oof. Yeah. But I would say for the first, like, week, I just really tried to hold it together. And I think Heather Gay talked about this when she came on the second time, about how, like, you try to present like, everything's wonderful when you leave the church because you really don't want anyone to see you falling apart or hurting or crying or your marriage breaking up or your family because you don't want them to think that you made the wrong decision. And all the things that they say you're going to be, you become those things. And I. I found so much in that, that in the first week, I was holding in all my grief.

Jen [04:39:37] I mean, I was still grieving deeply. I was still just crying every day, you know, And I just held it together and smiled and tried to do all the fun things. And after a week, it was like my body started to shut down and I realized what I was doing, that I was, like, trying to prescribe, present something so that Ryan would think that we made the right decision.

Jen [04:39:57] And I realized that was happening and her. And I went, I think on a hike or paddle boarding or something together. And I told her that this is what I was doing, that I'm trying to present. Like, I'm happy because I don't want you to think I made the wrong decision. But I'm hurting. I'm hurting deeply. I'm really struggling.

Jen [04:40:14] And I still believe in my decision, but I just don't. I want you to. I don't want you to think that I'm happy. Like, I can't. I can't keep up this facade, basically. And she said the most beautiful thing. She was like, you don't have to keep up the facade, Mom. Like, I know the church isn't for everybody, and I love you and you can grieve, like, with me being here. And I don't think she even remembers saying that, but that, to me changed every. That was like, the beginning of, like.

Jen [04:40:39] And I went, oh, okay. She's still Ryan. Yes. Yep. Because that's something Ryan would say. You're like, there she is. Yeah, that's something my Ryan would say. Exact. Exactly. And I felt like maybe because I opened up to her a little bit, she could kind of open herself up to me a little bit, you know?

Jen [04:40:56] And I. We had planned a big trip to Hawaii when she got home, so she'd have something to look forward to and a concert to Harry Styles. Like, I told her that a few weeks before we got tickets because she loves hearing me. So, like. Yep. When she'd call home, we'd have Harry playing in the background.

John Dehlin [04:41:10] Yeah.

Jen [04:41:10] Don't tell anybody that. That's so great. I love that song. Yeah. Just to try to keep her. Because there's things that we love so much. Music is just such a huge part. We love music. Yes. And so I was like. I wanted her to feel some excitement coming home. So we got those tickets, and then we had a trip planned to all go to Hawaii together, which we'd never done anything like that before. And so we did that, and it was a really, really beautiful trip. But there was one time when I was telling. We were in the Sandy, all in the ocean, and I was telling my sister about the byu something at byu.

Jen [04:41:43] I can't even remember what it was. And Ryan was standing close to us, and she turned and walked away. And I was like, oh, man, I can't even talk about byu. Like, that's. Like, I really can't talk anything. Because I knew that she was not, like, a BYU fan, you know, But I thought, okay, like, literally everything's off the table. I mean, I kind of knew that, but I thought, well, she can get in on the, like, not liking byu, not itself, but, like, you know, the rules and these things that are. People that are being harmed and the LGBTQ stuff. But I. I realized then, like, even that, like, nothing is safe right now.

Jen [04:42:13] She's not in a place where that's, you know. Yeah, but identity emerging. Yeah. Where you were one in the same. Yeah. Yeah, but. But we were just. I. I mean, I. I see like a slow heel. And then, of course, she went to Hawaii. She left for Hawaii. Yeah. And I noticed that she was working every Sunday, and I thought, that's interesting. So I guess she's not going to church. And then we would talk, and she would tell me all the stuff she was doing and all the scooters, and I just. She was just blooming.

Jen [04:42:45] And I didn't know for sure, but I knew she worked on Sundays, and I never asked. I never brought it up. I didn't. She told me about a boy she met, and, you know, it was wonderful because we were opening back up to each other, but we never spoke of the church, which was wonderful, because there's so many other things to talk about, you know, I mean, there's so many other things in our lives that we love about each other and that we share together. And I felt a lot of hope. It was like, okay, we're just two people, and we can, like, support and love each other.

Jen [04:43:16] But I never brought up the church, but I did notice she wasn't going to church, so. Yeah, like she said, when she came home to get ready to go back to byu, Idaho, I noticed something that she. And I was like, do you want to go back? And she was like, I don't think I want to be a nurse. And I was like, well, what do you want to do? And she said, I want to go to Hawaii and be a school instructor. And I was like, you should do it. She was like, really? I was like, hell, yeah. You're 21 years old. You're 20 years old. Go do what you want. Go live your life, you know? And

John Dehlin [04:43:49] she went back to Hawaii after coming back?

Jen [04:43:51] Yes. I lived there for three years. Yeah, it's been there for three years now. But. But the other thing Was we had kind of started drinking a little bit, but not merely, like, some seltzers or something. My sister had brought down a couple seltzers, but we had, like, hid anything that we had in the house that would be any, you know, indication to make Ryan uncomfortable. And she came back in.

John Dehlin [04:44:09] Did you hide the coffee maker?

Jen [04:44:10] We didn't even drink coffee yet. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan definitely is, like, more of a coffee. Although Andy grew up drinking coffee because he wasn't Mormon. Contribute. Exactly. I gotta do my part. Yeah. But she walks in from the fridge. This is that during that December when she'd come home from Hawaii, and she goes, so who's Truly. Is that in the fridge? Or whatever the drink was. And I was like, oh, I think maybe like, your aunt left it here or whatever. Like a seltzer?

John Dehlin [04:44:35] Yeah.

Jen [04:44:37] Like a fruity alcoholic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like, well, whose is it? And I was like, oh, I think Auntie Teddy Bear left it here. And she's like, well, can I have it? And I was like, what? I was like, wait, what? I mean, as far as I knew, she had come home from our mission. That was the last girl I knew. Like, it was like, one of the best days of my life. Yes. You were like, hell. Ryan's. Here's Ryan's home.

John Dehlin [04:45:10] Did you the job of the toxic?

Jen [04:45:11] Yeah. So I said, what the heck? Like, and I understood, like, one of the things she said to me when she first came back. She may not remember this, but she was saying, like, oh, yeah, my therapist, Christy said, like, there are some, like, unhealthy relationships sometimes with kids and parents, and it's natural for you to grow apart. And so, like, that. So I kind of saw, like, she needs her own space, and she's growing up, and, like, I mean, but we're so close. It was kind of like, okay, well, I guess, you know, but so I was kind of thought it was fun that she kind of stuck.

Jen [04:45:36] Sprung that on us. And like, I said, what's going on? She goes, I just started hanging out with these people in Hawaii, and they were the best people I've ever known. And they were so kind and such good people. And they care about the earth and they're wonderful people. And they drank. And she's like, in, like, couple weeks ago, like, one of them was like, oh, you want to order a drink? And she. She's like. I just thought, well, sure.

Jen [04:45:57] And I was just like, cool, cool. Like, whatever. No, I mean, my mind was. I mean, blown. And that was kind of like, the beginning of the healing. I said, well, what do you think about, like, what's going on with your thoughts of the church? And she's like, I don't really know for sure, but I know that the people I met there were the best people I've ever known. And the way they treated me was so beautiful. And the way that they cared for me and the way that they live their lives and they drink and they live with their boyfriend, and I just. I'm not making sense of how the church fits into that.

Jen [04:46:30] And that was kind of like what the first thing was that she kind of spoke to me about. And then I was like, that's all right. You don't have to have it all figured out. I'm glad you're. And she was just her. She was back. Yep. And I just thought, you got some grieving to do, girl. Yeah. I knew the path was going to be utterly difficult, so, so, so hard for her. And I was like, you go at your own pace, girl. Yeah. You have a lot to deconstruct and to undo and to heal from. And I knew how much the mission had hurt her, and I just tried to just be there for her from there on out, you know, tried to kind of share, but also give her her space when she needed it and share some things that helped me and.

Jen [04:47:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all been up from there. Yeah, it really has. Up and down most of the time. Up and down, up and down. Which can be that there's been a lot of pain, there's been a lot of grief. Watching her heal and all that she's been through and the struggles, it's been incredibly difficult. But she's very brave. All of my children are incredibly brave. What they've been through since leaving, just because. Also wanting to deconstruct and wanting to understand things and not just create the same habits in different ways, like actually really wanting to learn and loss of therapy and. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Reflections on Family, Love, and Life After Mormonism

John Dehlin [04:47:54] To a believing Mormon, the idea that the Mormon Church tears up families is like an unthinkable thought. And yet what I want to say at the end of this beautiful story is the Mormon Church wasn't successful in destroying your family.

Jen [04:48:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:48:10] Right.

Jen [04:48:10] Yep. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:48:11] It didn't.

Jen [04:48:12] It tried to. It definitely tried. With all its might. It tried, but tried. And even our own. Our own, you know, things like we made our own mistakes and. Yeah. And I. I've written quite a few poetry. I loved the girl you just had on with her dad and all the poems, and I was Like, I've written so much poetry, Scout. Yeah. Yeah. And I have. Poetry has been a real beautiful thing for me. But one of the things I wrote about was. Sorry. I lost my train of thought after thinking about Scout.

John Dehlin [04:48:43] That's okay.

Jen [04:48:44] Losing forever. Losing forever. Yeah. And just how incredibly terrified I was of that. And I. I was like, why would anyone stay in the church? You know, when I first left. It's so terrible, and it's not true. And then I slowly just went, oh, okay. I get is.

Jen [04:49:01] It is very hard things to face when you leave. You lose things that are. Yeah. Feel very beautiful when they work for you, you know? But then when someone you love or yourself. It doesn't work anymore. Then it's really. That's so devastating. And I think women. It's so complex, you know, the choices you've made and who you've become. And then all of a sudden, it's like, is this who I wanted to become? Is this what I wanted in my life? But you already have made the decisions, and you already love your children, and you already love. So it's. You're in that complicated. It's incredibly complicated.

Jen [04:49:37] Yeah. And I still grieve, you know, I still grieve forever. Family and. Yeah. I was gonna ask you about that with regard to your mom. Yeah. I've done a lot of things. Have you. Have you had to revisit that a little bit with the new structure of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, as a teenager.

Jen [04:49:56] But truly, like, in the most beautiful way. Like, I got. I get to feel it. I get to just be like, I miss my mom every day and just let that be it. Let that be. That's right. Not be like, no, no, no, but I'll see her again. It's like, no, I get to just miss her and honor her and who she was and what she gave me.

Jen [04:50:18] And I. You know, one of the things is, I was like, we do kind of that. Like, oh, in forever, in the future, we'll be together. But I like to just. I. As I was unpacking the forever in my mom, and I just realized she is with me forever because her love is in my soul.

John Dehlin [04:50:35] Yeah.

Jen [04:50:35] And now I am trying to share that love with my children and put it into their souls, and then they will have that love inside of them to share again. And that is a forever thing that you're sharing with people you love. That's right. It's different than what it was, but to me, it's more beautiful because it's moving forward. It's Not. It's not like a, oh, I. I have to do something to earn, to be with. It's just love. It's just all the love and that will go on and that. That's all we.

John Dehlin [04:51:02] Yeah.

Jen [04:51:03] And I feel like in that other model, it was always like, in a future you couldn't quite reach, but in this model, it's like, no, it's right here. It's right. I love in this moment. You can touch it. Yep. And I. I mean it, really. Like, I've always. I mean, I. I love my kids so deeply, as I'm sure every parent understands. Feel it.

Jen [04:51:26] But now it's more like. It's more like I'm in awe of them and I'm watching them grow and teach me things and. Yeah. And their bravery to do these hard things and to face whatever. And I just. I just am like, wow, this is what it is. It's like we're to learn. Learn from them.

Jen [04:51:45] You know, like, you think as a parent or as a member of the church, like, no, if my kids just do everything I say, then they'll be happy and then they'll be safe, and then it's just this false information that you have no control over. But what you do have control over is just like, loving them and then you see how they can kind of bloom. And then I just say, like, tell me who you are. Tell me what you want to become. Tell me what you're learning about yourself and your own heart and your own grief. And, I mean, there have been deep grief, you know, in our family.

Jen [04:52:17] I don't mean to paint it as, like, all beautiful picture, but I think grief is a beautiful part of the picture. And now we can feel it together and we can say, tell me that's right. And I can lay with, you know, my daughter and play with her hair while she cries. And I've done a lot of apologizing. And I'm so sorry that I didn't hear you when you say that, or I'm so sorry that I taught you something that caused you harm, or. Yes, I hear that. I love it. I'm so grateful I can apologize to them. I'm so grateful I can say I had it wrong. And I don't know. I don't know exactly what it looks like, but I know I love you. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:52:56] Yep.

Jen [04:52:57] And that's kind of all I got. Just the love. I always said, Andy, like, it's just love now.

John Dehlin [04:53:02] I don't.

Jen [04:53:02] I don't know what else matters. I don't know what else is right or wrong or true for anyone, but I just know that, like, love is love. Is it? Yeah. Love is what I believe in. And I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:53:16] So it's very Beatles esque. Love is all you need.

Jen [04:53:18] That's right. And I love it because it kind of ends back with your mom. Because I feel like that is the thing that I feel like you got through all that. Because it's her love that remains sense. It's her love that changed you. It's her love that. Yeah. And her love that gave me the courage to leave. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were just kind of talking about, like, if I look back on all the decisions that I made that I've had a lot of shame around as a member of the church, now, they're the things I am the absolutely most proud of because those are the things that took the courage that go against what I was told was beautiful and good. And it felt when I felt beautiful and good to me. And that's what she taught me, you know?

John Dehlin [04:54:03] Yep.

Jen [04:54:04] Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. Thank you.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin [04:54:08] Well, Jen and Ryan Anderson, would you believe that's five hours?

Jen [04:54:11] I do believe it. I almost thought it was like 12. I was like, should I stop talking? That was so long. I did so much talking. You guys are so patient and good.

John Dehlin [04:54:21] Yeah. What an epic, beautiful story. Jen and Ryan Anderson, y' all are amazing.

Jen [04:54:28] Thank you so much for giving us the opportunity. You have no idea. It's really, really a gift.

John Dehlin [04:54:34] And if y' all didn't check out Ryan's. Ryan's is still more than worthy of your time because it's an epic story in and of itself. Right? For sure.

Jen [04:54:42] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:54:43] She.

Jen [04:54:43] And she has even more details so you can parallel them and kind of hear how they compare.

John Dehlin [04:54:48] Oh, it's its own story. It's why we did it because it deserves its own.

Jen [04:54:52] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:54:54] Well, what?

Jen [04:54:56] Oh, I just said thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Like we said, it's just a huge gift to us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:55:03] All right, well, thanks, y'. All. Thank you so much.

Jen [04:55:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:55:07] Yeah.

Jen [04:55:08] This has been a gift for us, so thank you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:55:12] Gift.

Jen [04:55:12] Mutually perfect. Love that.

John Dehlin [04:55:15] All right, well, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Margi, thanks for joining us today on Mormon stories. Yes.

Jen [04:55:20] So glad to be here. Yep.

John Dehlin [04:55:23] And yeah. Please subscribe to this channel. Please like and share this episode. If you value this, please share it with anyone. I know there's going to be people whose lives will be changed from hearing These stories. So please share. I want to thank just everyone who donates to the Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories Foundation. We couldn't do it without your support, so thank you. And please know that we lose donors every month and if we don't replace them, then we have to kind of cut back. So if you value this type of content and want to see it continue, please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll keep providing this type of content along with all the other stuff we do. Right?

Jen [04:56:12] Yes. Go watch it all.

John Dehlin [04:56:16] We're almost at 2,000 episodes, which is crazy.

Jen [04:56:18] Amazing. Yeah, incredible.

John Dehlin [04:56:21] So thanks so much. Thanks to Julia and Gerardo and Brooklyn and Maven, Margi and all the co hosts and to our board that make all this possible. So huge thanks to them. Thanks to you, our viewers. If you don't like commercials on YouTube, get a premium subscription. It's only 10 bucks a month. And then you don't have to watch the commercials. That's just a little pro tip. And yeah, also we're planning, we're organizing more panels and interviews. Some of the ones we're looking for, we're looking for grandparents who lost their faith as grandparents. We're looking for neuro atypical people, including autistic and or adhd. Looking for panels on that. We're looking for people who were harmed on their mission or early returned from their mission for a panel. Margi, what other panels are we working on?

Jen [04:57:18] Those are the ones we filled some. A couple recently.

John Dehlin [04:57:23] So coming up is the YSA Young Single Adult panel.

Jen [04:57:28] That's right. And we also have an infertility panel.

John Dehlin [04:57:32] Okay. And then, and then also, if you have a story that you think would be interesting or useful to our audience, go to our newly renovated MormonStories.org website. There's a link to apply to be on the show. And like Jen and Ryan, you can apply to be on the show. And if Margi likes you. I love saying that. Why do I love saying that? I throw you under the bus.

Jen [04:58:00] As you wish. Just whatever.

John Dehlin [04:58:02] No, it's not a matter of you liking them. That's mean, actually, because we just can't. We just can't do all the stuff.

Jen [04:58:08] The truth is, I love them all. I watch them all. I love them all.

John Dehlin [04:58:12] But if it's a good fit at this time, we'll have you on. And if we don't have you on immediately, don't lose hope. We may in the future, right? Correct. Yeah. All right. That's it. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. And love is all you need. Right?

Jen [04:58:32] Love is that love.

John Dehlin [04:58:34] Love is all you need.

Jen [04:58:35] Agreed.

John Dehlin [04:58:36] And love is the thing. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye, everybody. Take care. Thanks.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.