Introduction and Welcome to Donna's Story

Part 1 of 5 · Ep. 1150

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Shapes.

Donna Showalter [00:00:05] Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's July 15, 2019 and you are in for a special treat today on Mormon Stories Podcast. For those of you who have been with us earlier today or who have checked out the immediately two preceding episodes, you'll know that we just did a couple hours with Donna and Michael Showalter, who told a touching, heartwarming, informative, insightful, inspiring story of how an orthodox Mormon mom when she learned that her son Michael was gay in Provo, Utah, you know, at Temp View High School, former Relief Society president, eventually former Stake Young Women's president, again in Provo when she learned about her son Michael coming out as gay, her journey, his journey to coming out at Timview and in their ward and in their stake and in their community, and then her journey to going from an orthodox mom who didn't want to hear about this and wanted to push it in the closet and make it disappear, to becoming a fully affirming and supportive mom dealing with Michael's suicidality and depression as it related to going through all this ultimately to Michael seemingly thriving in a healthy, happy life and Donna no longer having to spend a couple years of her life worrying about whether her son would would stay alive. So it was a very touching, meaningful episode and we're, we really hope you'll check that out if you haven't yet. It's very inspiring and it's a story that transcends LGBT issues. It's just about learning to choose love over ideology or beliefs or anything else. To choose love and to choose family. So we're grateful to Donna and Michael for the first two hours, to everyone who joined us on Facebook Live. And now we are going to dive into Donna's story and I'll just give a little bit of a kind of a context or framing on Mormon Stories podcast. In the past we have been focusing on former Mormon church leaders. We had Tom Phillips, a former stake president Twice we had, you know, Hans Mattsson, a former area authority in Sweden, who for all intents and purposes was a general authority in Europe for the Mormon Church. And we've had several bishops on Mormon stories, from Scott Purvis to Jason Booth to. I probably couldn't name all the bishops that we've had because it's like almost every month a bishop or stake president, a sitting bishop or stake president is reaching out to me and saying, help. I've lost my faith. What do I do? I'm bishop. It's everywhere. And we just have done our best to spotlight high level church leaders because, number one, Mormons respect and listen to authority. That's kind of the currency. The lifeblood of Mormonism is respect for priesthood authority. So we know that the people wake up and pay attention when bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents are involved. And of course, I can't forget Roger Hendricks, who we had on Mormon Stories, who's a former bishop, a former stake presidency member, a former mission president. We also had Bill Bradshaw, former mission president president, on Mormon Stories a long time ago. But it's also important to do the, the female point of view. And even though a Mormon woman can't be a bishop or stake president, they certainly can be Relief Society presidents, they can be primary presidents, and they can serve at least as high as Stake Relief Society President or Stake Young Women's president. And those are sort of the highest callings a Mormon woman can aspire to, other than being the bishop's wife, as gross as that may sound to some people, or as unsatisfactory or like the General Relief Society Auxiliary or Young Women's auxiliary or primary auxiliary. So in that spirit, we are going to now dive back into Donna's story. Her son Michael's gone to work. And we are going to come to understand how in Provo, Utah, you know, probably one of the most conservative Mormon cities in the world, I think, you know, other than like Alpine or Highland, it's hard to imagine a more conservative Mormon city, I think. And then, you know, as they say in Utah, more east, more good. The farther you go up the bench from I15 east towards the mountains, the closer you get to the temples, you know, on the east side, and the closer you get to kind of the more expensive real estate, the closer you get to the more conservative membership. So. So we're talking not only the heart of Mormonism, the heart of conservative Mormonism, the heart of Utah county, we're talking about the heart of conservative Provo, where Donna Showalter would have Served as a primary president at some point and then Relief Society president, and then eventually as Stake Young Women's president. We know how much the church values its youth. How many years in total have you lived in Provo?

Growing Up in Conservative Provo, Utah

Donna Showalter [00:06:09] 16 years.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] 16 years raising, you know, what some might have viewed as, at least at one point, the ideal Mormon family or the perfect Mormon family or whatever those appearances mean, with a devout, faithful husband. That's really intense. And so I want to really dive into that now, Donna, and just talk about your story and how a woman with such leadership experience, with such respect, with such a reputation, with such conservative. Conservative beliefs and hopes for yourself, how. How you could then navigate a faith crisis in 2000, what, 19. When did it really blow up for you?

Donna Showalter [00:06:52] January.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] Of this year.

Donna Showalter [00:06:54] Of this year.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] So, yeah, I remember you reaching out to me. It wasn't just a few months ago that you and I had pizza.

Donna Showalter [00:06:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] At what?

Donna Showalter [00:07:00] Pyology in Lehigh.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Pyology in Lehigh.

Donna Showalter [00:07:03] I've gone there like four or five times since then. It's really good.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] And Donna's worked for, you know, she's worked for byu, and, I mean, it couldn't get more Mormon than the story. So. So in the first couple hours, we started with your story talking about a conservative Mormon upbringing. You have one of six Mormon kids. Is that right? And you talked a little bit about you having a first marriage and a divorce and three kids by that first marriage, but then with your. With your current husband, sort of like getting married in the temple, having your fourth child, which was Michael, and pursuing the Mormon dream. So is there anything we should back up and talk about? Just to make sure we really paint a good contextual picture for your experience before we talk about your faith crisis.

Donna Showalter [00:07:50] First, I would say I never aspired to any calling. I just. Whatever they wanted me to do, I was willing to do it. Yeah. Like, who does that, knowing. Yeah. I never turned down a calling, because

John Dehlin [00:08:01] in Mormonism, you don't do that.

Donna Showalter [00:08:03] No. Not if you're faithful.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:08:04] You know, and I. I would never have said no. So also, like, you living on. On the east bench in Provo, Utah, and all that, it. It didn't seem abnormal or different to me. It's just. That was my. That. That's my life, you know, it's just kind of an everyday thing. It's not. It doesn't feel extraordinary.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Yeah. But it's intense. I mean, Provo is Utah county, and Provo particularly are known as the most intense kind of regions for real orthodox Mormonism. It's kind of like our Saudi Arabia.

Donna Showalter [00:08:37] It's a different world.

John Dehlin [00:08:38] Yeah, for sure.

Donna Showalter [00:08:39] It's that bubble. And I remember moving to Utah from wherever we were at the time. I don't remember, but moving to Utah and the first Sunday sounds of the Sabbath 100.3. And. And it was on in the car, and I was like, we have. We are in Zion. Like, this is it. Like they're singing church songs on the radio.

John Dehlin [00:09:03] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:09:03] And we tuned in every Sunday, and I knew all the songs and all the artists, and it was just. It was a beautiful thing to be part of the bubble.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Yeah. Okay, so. So what. Is there anything prior to you coming to Provo that you really want to talk about that would be important to kind of help us understand? You had a devout Mormon upbringing.

Donna Showalter [00:09:30] I did. So my dad is the only member on his side. And my mom, pioneer stock from England. I'm sixth generation Mormon. My great grandpa was born a twin. So their names were Joseph Smith Harmon and Hyrum Smith Harmon.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Like, oh, wow.

Donna Showalter [00:09:51] So super, super devout. You know, came across the ocean, you know, came. Came across the plains. Yeah. So my dad was raised in Texas, joined the Navy at 17. His parents signed the waiver and then met and married my mom and then went off to Vietnam.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Where did they meet?

Donna Showalter [00:10:20] They met in Stockton, California. I think he was. He was like, attending church. Oh, no, because he. He wasn't. I don't know where they actually met. Met. I don't know, probably through mutual friends or something, but just like, they dated for a little while.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] So. She dated him as a nun? Yeah, as a. He was a non member.

Donna Showalter [00:10:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:10:39] Yeah. So they got married, had my big sister, and then he served in Vietnam, came home. I think he was here for a year before he went back and served another tour in Vietnam. And I was born while he was in Vietnam.

John Dehlin [00:10:55] Wow.

Donna Showalter [00:10:56] So that second time, and while he was there, he had a friend who gave him a Book of Mormon. I think the guy knew that my mom was a member, so gave my dad a Book of Mormon. He read it and prayed about it, felt that it was true, was baptized in the Mekong Delta, and then went to church every Sunday, which included two helicopter rides, those helicopters that go straight off the ground really, really fast. And so they needed to do that so that there wouldn't. They wouldn't be killed by enemy fire. But anyway, so he. Every time he would go up in the air, he would throw up, and then they would fly to the next base and he would land and he would throw up and then so he did that twice every Sunday. And he was really, really faithful, you know, true, true believing.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] And Bill Bradshaw, who we interviewed on Mormon Stories podcast, former, you know, stake presidency member, former mission president, he served as a mission president over the. Over the mission that included Vietnam during the Vietnam War.

Donna Showalter [00:11:58] Really.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] So I don't know if he would have been mission president while your guy converted.

Donna Showalter [00:12:02] Interesting to find out.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] But he was, you know, because the Vietnam War, I guess, in theory, went 10 years or more.

Donna Showalter [00:12:08] Y.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] Anyway, for those who want to hear what it's like to be a mission president in Vietnam during the Vietnam War, check out the Bill Bradshaw interview. So your dad, okay, so your, your dad joins the church.

Family Tragedy and Pioneer Heritage

Donna Showalter [00:12:22] My dad joined the church, came back from Vietnam. He had told my mom that he'd joined the church. And I think my mom and her family were. They were active, but I don't know, maybe. I don't know. They weren't like hardcore. So maybe more nuanced, I don't know. But when he came back, he's like, listen, this is, we're living it. And my mom was like, cool, whatever. So they did and raised us Mormon. They had more kids. My dad was in the Navy, so we moved around a lot.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] By the way, Sarah, Angel Weaver writes in mom sent him the Book of Mormon in the mail. So she's correcting the story. Oh, mom sent.

Donna Showalter [00:13:04] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] I'm assuming Sarah's your sister.

Donna Showalter [00:13:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] So shout out to Sarah, Donna's sister.

Donna Showalter [00:13:10] Okay. So mom sent him the. It was one of those ones, it's paperback with the blue cover and the Angel Moroni on it. And my dad gave it to me several years, many years ago, and then just asked for it back. So I just mailed it back to him like a couple weeks ago. But I took pictures of all kinds of stuff in it before I sent it back. Anyway, so he came back. They. They were living the life in the Navy. More kids came. Sarah will know timeline better than me. I'm going to do my best. I. In 1977, my dad was stationed, I think in Tennessee. And my grandpa, my dad's dad came to visit us. And he never came to visit, but it was so cool because grandpa came to visit. It was. Anyway, they sent us out to play a lot. And they talked just amongst themselves. And we're like, whatever, you know. But I was like 7 or 8, so I wasn't paying attention at all. And then we got transferred to Jacksonville, Florida. So we were there. I remember turning nine when we lived in Jacksonville, Florida, and my dad Got out of the Navy, and we moved back to Texas, and we actually moved in with my grandpa, I think, because it was kind of. I don't know if it was sudden, but we didn't have a house to live in yet, so we were living with my grandpa. And then one day, I'm nine years old, one day, all my relatives are at our house, and it's not a very big house, so it's packed full of people, and everybody's crying and really super sad, and I'm like, what? What's going on? And I found. I think I knew before, but it didn't really make sense to me, and I didn't understand what it really meant when someone is missing. But my grandma had gone missing in 1977, and that's why my grandpa came, because he came to tell my dad and talk over everything. And so in 1979, when we lived in Texas, they found my grandma's body. And so that's why everyone was over at the house. And my dad's mom. My dad's mom. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] Was killed.

Donna Showalter [00:15:15] Yeah. Yeah. She. I, I, I think she had been having a yard sale or something. I don't know. I know that. I know they talked about it later. She was, like, OCD clean, you know, like, everything has to be perf. Perfect.

John Dehlin [00:15:27] But.

Donna Showalter [00:15:27] But they knew something was wrong because when they went to her house, there were towels in the dryer that hadn't. The dryer hadn't been turned on, which was, you know, so they were stinky and whatever. Anyway, so they found her because they had been looking for another man who was more prominent in the community. And the man who killed them was in a jail in prison in Oklahoma. And he said, if you will transfer me to Texas or whatever, because he was. I don't know if he was being beat up or. I don't know, but he wanted out of that prison. If you move, I'll tell you where I hid this man's body. So they moved him. He drew a map to an abandoned farm in East Texas. And when they found this man, they. My grandma was. Her body was there with his. So they'd been. They'd been murdered and thrown down a well. So it sounds like. It doesn't sound like. It sounds like fiction, but I promise it's the truth. Anyway, so. So my grandma was murdered by a serial killer. And this is like, my dad had already served two tours in Vietnam. And, I mean, this just sent him off the deep end, you know, Lots of trauma surrounding that. So I remember going to my grandma's funeral. I didn't understand. Like, I was nine, and I'm watching all my relatives just crying and crying and crying. And it was so sad to watch them cry that I cried too. But I only have a few memories of my grandma, so I. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] Anyway, how did the church help your family deal with that? Or did it.

Donna Showalter [00:17:06] I was so young that I don't know. Okay, I'm sure that they were there and supportive, but I don't. I was too young to really remember.

Mormon Upbringing and Teen Years

John Dehlin [00:17:13] Okay, so your Mormon upbringing, what was that like?

Donna Showalter [00:17:17] We were. We were really orthodox. We. We did all the things. This was back when. Okay, so when we. When we moved back to McKinney, Texas, when my grandma's body was found, we. The branch, six people, and they met in somebody's front living room. And we doubled the ward. Well, the. The branch when we moved in, because there were eight of us. Maybe there were seven at the time. Anyway, and so we went. This was when. I think it was what. What came first. Sunday school. And then you went home and ate dinner, and then you went back at five for sacrament meeting. Anyway, so this. That was what we did. And we lived far enough out of town that we would pack lunch, so we would go to Sunday school, and then we'd go to a park or something, eat our lunch, and then we'd. For a sacrament meeting. And we had to be really careful not to get our dresses dirty anyway, so, yeah, just super orthodox. And then at some point, the ward grew, or the branch grew till we didn't fit in this guy's front room. So we rented the basement of the Baptist church. So the ward then met in the basement there. And. And as kids, we weren't allowed to, but we still did. We snuck upstairs into the Baptist church and just wandered. And it was huge and lots of hallways and secret rooms and just interesting things. And I remember going up to the very top floor into the chapel, but there was a balcony at the back of the chapel, and there were no cushions on those benches. It was just like solid wood benches. And we would look down into the chapel where the benches were white with red velvet cushions, beautiful stained glass windows. The baptismal font was right behind the rostrum. And I found out later, I think, that that balcony was for colored people. What we would have called colored people back then. You know, African Americans, they weren't allowed to be with the white people down on the cushy benches anyway. But eventually we got so big that the Baptists sold us the church. So. So then we were. We had Mormon church in the Baptist building, so. Which was really, really fun.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Anyway, you don't have a Texas accent.

Donna Showalter [00:19:25] I did.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] Neither do I. By the way.

Donna Showalter [00:19:27] Are you from. That's right. Huh.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] Yeah. I lived. I have my first 18 years in Texas.

Donna Showalter [00:19:32] Okay. If I. If I talk with someone who. Who has one, I slip back into it really, really easy. But for the most part, I got made fun of in junior high, high school for talking different, and so I learned.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] What high school did you go to?

Donna Showalter [00:19:47] Several. I was actually in. In Texas until my junior year, and then I moved to California to live with my mom and went to Stagg High School in Stockton, California. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] And in Texas, what high school would it have been?

Donna Showalter [00:20:02] Different ones. McKinney High, and then moved to Howe, Texas, which is a teeny little town in the middle of nowhere. The graduating class, I think, was 15, so. And then Sherman Denison and then the colony. We lived in the colony, which was closer to Dallas.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] A lot of moving around, so.

Donna Showalter [00:20:19] A lot of moving around, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] So what did the church mean to you as a teenager?

Donna Showalter [00:20:24] It was my social network, I think, more than anything. I mean, I believed it was true because my parents said it was true. And that's what we did every Sunday, and that's how we lived every single day. You know, we had family prayer and family home evening and scripture study. It was just what it was, our life, you know, So I never questioned. I think at some point, I think When I was 17, I had a thought that didn't last very long. What if this isn't the true church? Like, what if I'm. What if I just don't know any different? You know, what if there's more? And I remember thinking, you know, I haven't ever gone to another church. I don't even know what another church is like on the inside, let alone what they teach or, you know, so. But then it just kind of. That thought kind of went away over time, you know, probably within a few minutes. And I just plugged away, like, this is just what we do, you know? And it. And even into my teens, it was really my social network. My parents divorced while we lived in McKinney. My mom moved back to California. My dad stayed in Texas. And church was my social structure. It was where I felt safe. It was constant, and the routine was really comforting and safe. It was just what we did.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Did you, like, feel like you had a relationship with Heavenly Father or the Savior? Did you pray about it? What about your Internal spiritual life during that time? Or was that, like, not as important back then as more social?

Donna Showalter [00:21:53] It was really social. But I did pray. I read my scriptures. I attended early morning seminary. I was the seminary president my senior year, and it was early morning seminary because it was California. And I remember giving a talk in state conference, and I wrote my talk, and then I'm sitting in the foyer at state conference, and I'm like, oh, gosh, this talk isn't right. And I went back and I rewrote basically the whole thing. And so I was like the youth speaker. I got up, I gave my talk, and it was about the Book of Mormon. And we had been studying the Book of Mormon in seminary that year. And I really, truly, truly loved the Book of Mormon. I loved everything about it. I loved the stories, I loved the feelings. I loved how it talked about the Savior. I believed it 100%. And so I gave this talk, went and sat back down. The area authority, I don't remember who it was now, got up and called me back up to the stand, to stand beside him at the microphone, put his arm around me, and then to my whole stake, you know, a building full of people like, this is the most amazing daughter of God. She's an example to us all. And, like, just held me up as this, like, ideal. And I'm like, he has no idea who I am because I was also a normal teenager doing normal teenager things, you know? But for years after that, I had people. Oh, you're the one who gave that talk.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] So were you. Are you saying you weren't super strict, like, with, like, a lot of the teens that Mormon. A lot of things that Mormon youth have to deal with.

Donna Showalter [00:23:26] Oh, I was very. I was very strict. Okay. I didn't do drugs, I didn't smoke, I didn't drink. I dated. Probably every boy in my steak went to every steak dance, every multi steak dance, every regional dance. Like, we lived for steak dances.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Weren't they great?

Donna Showalter [00:23:42] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Weren't the steak dances in Texas amazing?

Donna Showalter [00:23:44] Oh, it was amazing. And in California, it was so, so great. We loved it. That's where I learned to dance and flirt.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] Okay, when you said he had no idea, you're making it sound like you were wayward privately, but.

Donna Showalter [00:23:54] Oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, he didn't know my thoughts. He didn't know, you know, I was dating Bo, kissing boys, you know, and I. And I thought there were times when I went to church and the bishop came up to me to shake my hand, and I Was like, oh, like the power of discernment. He can see into my soul. He knows that I kissed a boy last night. And I felt so much shame because he, because I felt sure that he knew what I was up to. But I was pretty. I don't know, I think I was a tame obedient. I was an obedient teenager. I wasn't obedient to my mother, but I was obedient to the children, church, I guess, you know, so I was, I. To my mother. I was top 10 world's most horrible teens. I was awful to her, truly awful. And then had kids of my own. And I've called her multiple times and just said, do you remember that time I did this one thing? I am so sorry. And she's like, I don't remember that. And I'm like, I do. So I was pretty awful to my mom. But, but as far as like church and society and school, you know, I was just average living my life. I was one of seven kids in my high school in California that was Mormon. And I felt that, not, maybe not pressure, but I, I wanted to be a good Mormon, you know, so that I could be an example to the people around me. So I was proud that I didn't do drugs or drink. I, I mean, it wasn't like, like I don't do that, you know, but, but my, my non Mormon friends knew that I didn't. And so if I was ever offered drugs or cigarette or whatever by somebody, somebody else would step in and say, no, Donna doesn't do that, like protecting me almost. And I, I don't know, it was really nice.

Early Marriage, Divorce, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [00:25:43] So did you go, what did you do after you graduated from high school?

Donna Showalter [00:25:46] I immediately got married.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] Seriously? To a Mormon kid?

Donna Showalter [00:25:50] Yeah. Yeah. So 2/7 of the Mormons. So it was. His name was Dave and he was such a beautiful person. He had an amazing smile. I remember the day he got his braces off and he came running up to us and he's like, I got my braces off and he smiled at me. And I think that's when I was like, I think I like him. He was so cute and he looked so good in those Levi's 501s.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:26:21] Anyway, so. But he was dating my, one of my best friends, also a Mormon, and I didn't want to hone in on that, but I really had a crush on him. And I had his senior picture like under my pillow and I would pull it out at night before I went to bed and like, look at it. And tuck it back in. And anyway. But she wasn't as into him as he was into her, I think. And he broke up with her at a stake dance. And I felt so sorry for her and she cried and it was bad. But then it was right around Christmas time and he had bought tickets for. No, I think we all went, actually a friend group. We all went to see the Nutcracker and I sat next to him and I was just in love.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Anyway, so a lot of Mormon girls back then would have gone to BYU for a Rick's for a year before or a year or two and met someone at BYU and then got married. What. What made you get married?

Donna Showalter [00:27:15] Just, I don't know. I think.

John Dehlin [00:27:18] Was he returned missionary?

Donna Showalter [00:27:20] No, I think coming from a broken home, I felt like my opportunities were very limited and the way I was raised, too. You're a girl, therefore, this is what your life will be. You will get married, you will have children, you will stay home. The end. And so I'm like, okay, the next step for me is get married. And so.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] So college wasn't emphasized for you necessarily?

Donna Showalter [00:27:46] No, it wasn't. Actually. I used to sing. I sang in high school and I. I took private lessons and stuff. And I remember one time my choir teacher saying, donna, have you considered, like, going to college? You could get a full ride scholarship for voice? And I was like, my grades aren't fabulous. And he was like. And I could see the look on his face. It's such disappointment. He goes, that's really too bad. Like, as if he was closing the doors too. He's like, no college for you. So it just wasn't. And no one in my family at that point, and when. I mean no one, I mean, generations, no one had gone to college.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] Your mom hadn't graduated from college?

Donna Showalter [00:28:29] My mom had gone to college, but she didn't graduate, so college wasn't a thing.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Mine either.

Donna Showalter [00:28:34] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] You hadn't had a older sister graduate from college or anything like that.

Donna Showalter [00:28:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] And you met this boy in. In California, Huh? Okay. And you guys got married there? Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:28:44] Okay. I was 18.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:28:47] He was 19. I was way too young.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] Yeah, whatever.

Donna Showalter [00:28:52] We actually, this might shock some of some people who don't know me well, but we actually eloped. We ran away to Reno and got married at 11:30 at night on October 30th, so almost Halloween. That would have been bad. But anyway, we eloped and then a year later, we were sealed in the Oakland Temple.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:29:18] When I was seven months pregnant with my daughter Katie, and My patriarchal blessing said that you will be married in the temple and you will have children born in the covenant. And I'm like, we got to get to the temple quick because I'm seven months pregnant, and this baby has to be born in the covenant, because that's the plan.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] That's what's, you know, was the elopement of scandal with your family and friends.

Donna Showalter [00:29:38] It probably was in our ward.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] I guess you hadn't been there years and years and years, so the ward's investment in you couldn't have been as strong as if you had been in the same ward 10 years.

Donna Showalter [00:29:47] Not for me, but I think it was for my husband, because his dad was the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] What was the ward stake? What was that?

Donna Showalter [00:29:52] It was. I think we were the.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] What city again?

Donna Showalter [00:29:59] El Dorado Ward in Stockton, California.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] Okay. Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:30:02] Yeah. I think it was a scandal. And it. And because it was the bishop's son, you know, and his wife was the primary president. And I just. I remember coming home and telling them, because we didn't tell anyone. We snuck away, you know, I don't know why we did that.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] By the way, Joseph and Emma eloped. So it's not. That's kind of like actually following in Joseph's footsteps.

Donna Showalter [00:30:24] Ooh, let's not take that too far.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] Sorry. Their initial footsteps. Yeah, but. But Mormons don't know that. So elopement, if it had a scandal, they didn't realize their founder was a part of that. And by the way, they eloped because Emma's dad thought Joseph was a crook and a charlatan and wouldn't have ever given his blessing to Emma to marry Joseph. So anyway, you come by a little bit, honestly, whether you know it or not.

Donna Showalter [00:30:52] I guess so. We came home, and I remember telling his mom, and we were in her room, and I remember. And I adored his mom. There are no words. She was the most incredible person. She accepted me from the moment she met me and treated me like family and was kind and treated me like an adult and included me in. In family functions and stuff like that. And it broke her heart, you know, and not that he married me, but that we eloped. And she said, if you would have just told me, I would have come with you. I wanted to be there. And that really hurt. It hurt me that I hurt her because I loved her so, so much. So anyway, then a year later, six months after we got married, I got pregnant, and then. And then we were sealed in LA Temple. Oakland.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] Oakland, yeah. Oh, that's right.

Donna Showalter [00:31:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] Even though Stockton is.

Donna Showalter [00:31:51] Stockton's like an hour and a half from Oakland.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] Oh, okay.

Donna Showalter [00:31:54] So it's like. It's a triangle of Sacramento, Stockton, San Francisco.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] Got it. Okay. So that marriage, unfortunately, you had three kids, but that marriage didn't last. We don't have to dig into that if you want or whatever. Like, Mormon divorce isn't ever a fun thing, right? No divorces.

Donna Showalter [00:32:12] It was really rough. It was really rough. Up to that point in my life, it was the hardest thing I'd ever been through, hands down. And there are episodes in my childhood where that were not pretty.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:32:25] Lots of good things, too. But up to that point, it was. It was really, really rough. And up until that point, I judged people who had been divorced. Like, what did they do wrong? Were they. Did they have affairs? Were they sinning? You know, like, what happened? Like, there's. There was such a stigma. I don't know that. I don't know if there still is. But at the time, there was really a stigma in being divorced and being a single mom. And until it was me, I. I was an expert judge of other people. But then it was me, and I was like, oh, gosh. Like, I had no idea the hurt and pain involved, you know? And I looked at people who were divorced so differently after that. Like, I looked at them as if their hearts were broken the way my heart was broken, and. And they were to be treated with empathy and compassion, not judgment. So sadly, most of my life has been lived that I don't. I don't. I have to live it to not judge it. It's terrible. So, like, I judge people who are divorced. Until I got divorced. I judge people. Gay kids until I had a gay kid.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] You know, people leave the church until you leave the church.

Donna Showalter [00:33:41] The judgment of people who leave the church.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] We'll get there.

Donna Showalter [00:33:44] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] So you already, you know, you had divorced parents.

Donna Showalter [00:33:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] So that was a hit. Then you marry young, and then you get divorced. So, like, your Mormon dream so far isn't going so well. Or at least someone might observe it and make that judgment.

Donna Showalter [00:34:01] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:34:02] Was that. How was that for you to, like, have three kids, be a single mom? I'm gonna guess in the 80s, late 80s, early 90s.

Donna Showalter [00:34:11] Early 90s, early 90s. 94.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] You're a divorced Mormon mom with three kids at age 25.

Donna Showalter [00:34:18] 25.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] 25. Yeah. What'd you do?

Donna Showalter [00:34:24] I. My ward was so supportive. I remember my.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] Again, the Stockton ward.

Donna Showalter [00:34:31] No, we. Oh, we had moved back to Utah, so we had moved to Utah. We were living in American fork at that time.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:34:36] So my release society president brought me a bread maker, one of those ones that makes a funky square loaf that's mostly crust. But I was so grateful because I didn't go to college. I didn't have a job in education. No. No real prospects. And. And so there were. There was a time where things were really rough financially, too. Anyway, so I got a job at the elementary school as a substitute teacher, and my bishop checked in on me regularly. There was a day when. And I still went to church every single Sunday, like nothing had changed as far as my faith. You know, ward members were incredibly kind. I was a counselor in the primary presidency, I think, And a man came up to me. I brought. I was. You know, me and three kids, Sunday morning on time, and he comes up to us and he says something to the effect of, I've watched your family, and I've. And I've kind of watched everything go down. And I admire and respect you so much, and especially your faith, and that even though it's hard, you bring your kids to church with you and you come every single Sunday. And I still remember that. I still remember that it meant so much to me during such a hard time to have someone acknowledge that this was hard, but that I was doing well. Like, somebody said, you're doing good, and. And felt so good. So.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] And I. I'm just gonna say it. I. I embrace all the positives of Mormonism, and. And I'm not ashamed or scared to highlight that. And it sounds like your Mormon ward really rallied around you.

Donna Showalter [00:36:18] They really provide you great support.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] That can be one of the amazing things about the church.

Donna Showalter [00:36:24] I remember talking to my bishop. He met with me often. You know, he would call me, how are you doing? He would check on me. He would call me into his office and, you know, just like, how are you doing? What can we help with? And he was incredibly supportive. At one point, I remember going in, and I won't go into details about how the divorce happened or why, but he basically said, at this point, my husband had moved out. And he said, I'm like. I was crying. I'm like, my celestial marriage. Like, what does this even mean? And, you know, and he said, can he take you to the celestial kingdom, Donna? And I was like, well, no. And he said, then why are you married to him? And I was like, okay. Like, he can't take me to Celestial Kingdom. Like, I cannot. It doesn't matter how good I am. I cannot get to the celestial kingdom without, you know, my Companion and my ex husband was no longer that person. And it was so devastating to realize that. But also the panic of, I've lived my life and at this point I was, I went from like a kid and you go because your parents go to a teenager. I wonder if this is true. But I'll just keep going to, this is what we do to full blown like, yes, this is, this is the true church. This is the only true church. And believing every part of it, every single part of it, as far as I knew at that time, with the education that I had. Anyway, so, so when he said, can he take you to such kingdom? And I said no. Well, he, my husband had already come and said, I think I want a divorce. And he'd already moved out at that time. And I was like, okay. So we, we divorced and, and then that was really rough and. But I, but I still, you know, I went to church every Sunday. I did everything I was supposed to do. I started real estate school with a friend and got my real estate license, started practicing real estate and then in the process met my husband. We've been married for 20, almost 24 years.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] Yeah, we're the same age and I've been married for 25 years. So you lived a whole life before I did. Before, you know, my married life would have started.

Donna Showalter [00:38:58] Yeah, yeah. It's a strange thought, you know, that, that I grew up really fast, you know.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] Yeah, yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:39:04] So.

John Dehlin [00:39:05] So how, how does it happen that a, a young eligible Mormon bachelor, returned missionary would want to marry a woman who's got three kids, I don't know, and is divorced? Like that's not the Mormon dream for him.

Donna Showalter [00:39:21] I'm still baffled at that. Like you could have had anybody. But his sister, conniving, although I'm super grateful, introduced us.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] And was she in your ward or.

Donna Showalter [00:39:34] She was in my ward. She was in my ward in American Fork. Yeah. Yeah. And so a bunch of us young moms took our kids to the park and we would just play and stuff. And she, I knew she had a single brother. I knew he'd been home from his mission for a little while, meaning probably two or three years, which, you know, you're supposed to be married pretty quickly after. He was a menace to society, basically, anyway. And I'm like, well, he must be broken. Like there's something got to be something wrong with him if he's 23, 24 at BYU, returned missionary and not married. Like, what's wrong?

John Dehlin [00:40:06] But then you didn't have much room to judge at that point.

Donna Showalter [00:40:08] No, no, but I still did. So. Yeah. So she introduced us. We started out as friends. He worked in Salt Lake and he lived in Provo. So he was at school. But he had like his nighttime job, whatever. So he would stop by my house in American Fork on his way home. And almost every night we would read scriptures with the kids, which was new and exciting for me. I wanted to be really devout and. And I doubled my, and redoubled my efforts to be righteous and good and, and you know what I mean? Like I, I felt like I am alone in the world and I have three kids. The only thing that I have is, is my, is my faith, my, my word, my. The gospel, the church, it's all I have. And I, and I clung to it for dear life. So the fact that he would want to come over and read scriptures was a thing all by itself. But then that we would discuss the scriptures. Not just read them like going through the motions. We discussed it. And he was, and he was a deep thinker. And when he opened his scriptures that he brought with him, like he carried his scriptures around, he opened his scriptures and there's like markings every. With multi colors. It's like, it's not just like a pencil or yellow or red multicolored markings. And, and I thought he's incredible. And he was in a lot of ways exactly opposite of my ex husband. And so just in the ways that he was opposite were at that time for me really important. And so his spirituality was really attractive to me. And it. I don't know. I don't know that that's why I was attracted to him. But it, but it was definitely points in his favor.

BYU Years and Finding a Second Husband

John Dehlin [00:41:54] But I'm thinking like what was my, what were my byu, my BYU years? Like? And it's like go to the cougar, eat, like go to war dances, like go to the bowling, go on dates, go bowling, go get milkshakes, go. He did all those things, concerts. But I just can't imagine going over to a girl's house I'm dating and there's three kids running around.

Donna Showalter [00:42:17] I know.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] And studying the scriptures and helping put them together and help you put them to bed. Yeah. With three kids.

Donna Showalter [00:42:25] Like that's odd.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] Kind of weird.

Donna Showalter [00:42:28] And yeah, like I would love to

John Dehlin [00:42:30] interview him to hear kind of how he. I mean obviously you'd say she's, she was lovely. I loved her. Like she's.

Donna Showalter [00:42:36] For whatever reason.

John Dehlin [00:42:37] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:42:38] I still, I'm like, I'm sort of baffled. But to this day, like the love that we have for each Other is so deep and strong. And he tells me often how much he loves me and how much I mean to him. And I. I still. I'm like, but why? Like, I. Like, I'm not as good as you. I'm a good person. But he has me so high on this pedestal, and I'm like, you know, that. That I'm not. Like, I'm just me.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] That's the same thing you felt when the general authority was talking good. The area authority was talking good about you. It's like, if you only knew. You've got this imposter syndrome. I guess it keeps popping out because

Donna Showalter [00:43:15] I know my inner thoughts. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:43:17] Thoughts make you unworthy. And, you know, maybe, you know, do

Donna Showalter [00:43:20] you think that I had, like, unworthy thoughts? Like, I. I think because at that point, I had learned to control my thoughts too. Like, if anything negative, even a little bit or sinful or whatever pops into my head, I had. I had ways, like, of stopping it instantly. Like, I could stop it instantly and then move on to something more uplifting. And. And so, yeah, anyway, I. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] And. And were his parents cool with. With him marrying you? Were they worried? Were they stressed? Were they mean? Were they super kind?

Donna Showalter [00:43:53] His. I had met his. Did I meet his dad? No. Okay. At this point, I'd only. I. I knew his sister and her family, and I knew him. And. And I'd met his siblings, I think, and their kids. At some point, like Thanksgiving or something, we all came together. So I met them. And I don't. I don't remember if his dad was there, but I remember visiting him at his apartment in Provo, and there was a letter on the. On the table, and I. And. And it said, dear Steve. And I was like, oh. And I picked it up, and he's like, oh, that's from my dad and I. And. And I'm like, can't. Can I read it? And he's like, yeah, whatever. And I. So I picked it up and I read it. And he asked questions like, is she in debt? Does. Does she have obligations to any other family? It was basically the temple questions. But, you know, is she worthy? What do you know about her background? Like, what do you know about her family?

John Dehlin [00:44:42] She lived the law of chastity.

Donna Showalter [00:44:44] Yes, we did. And just, like, meaningful questions that any good dad's gonna ask. Right. Especially, like, my son, a returned missionary. BYU's gonna marry a woman who's divorced with three kids. Yeah. Yeah. So we had a really long conversation that day where we went down the list and we started at question number one. And I answered those questions. Yeah, I answered all his questions and I was very honest.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] Like, with his dad?

Donna Showalter [00:45:16] No, with him. With him. From, from the letter. I'm like, you know, these are really good questions and these are things that you should know about me. Like we. We shouldn't be getting married unless you know everything about me. So I unloaded all my baggage on him. So we knew what he was getting into, I think, anyway.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] And you did it. You got married, you got sealed.

Donna Showalter [00:45:34] I, yeah, we. We got married in the Manti Temple. I met his mom three days before the wedding where she brought down from Oregon with her a car full of his things. And I was like, oh, I thought he only had things that were in his apartment, but he had these other things. And I was like, oh, this is weird. And I'm like, where are we gonna put that stuff? And there was. He had a mint green polo from seventh grade. I mean, it was stuff like that. And I was like.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] And he was moving into your apartment, right? Yeah, yeah, because you already had the kids there.

Donna Showalter [00:46:07] Yeah, I already had the kids. So he was moving in with us. So, yeah, we got married, we had our reception. We went away on an exotic honeymoon to Salt Lake City because we had kids at home.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Do you remember which hotel you stayed in?

Donna Showalter [00:46:20] Yes, the Carlton, right downtown. It was owned by my ex husband's uncle, so he gave us a deal. Anyway, so we, we went to. I think he still had his tux, I had my wedding dress. So we put them on like on day two of our honeymoon, whatever, and walked over to Temple Square and got one of those carriages, you know, with the horse drawn carriage, and rode in the horse drawn carriage around in our. Anyway, yeah, it was fun. It was a good. It was a good honeymoon. Salt Lake has some interesting things.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] So Tamara writes. My husband married me when I had two six year olds and a five year old. He wasn't a member.

Donna Showalter [00:46:57] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] So we have listeners who have had similar experiences as you. So when you married your current husband, what was the dream you guys were gonna live? You know. Oh, pain for us. A 30 second picture of like the life you were gonna live.

Donna Showalter [00:47:12] Sure, sure. Incredibly faithful members of the church who raised our kids to be perfect Mormons, which meant Eagles, young women, medallions, girls camp, scout camp, any calling they wanted us to do. And we had benchmarks for our kids, you know, like they, they need to do these things.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] And if their boys get their eagles, young men's, young women go to seminary.

Donna Showalter [00:47:42] Go to. Yes, go to seminary, go on a mission, get ready at the temple. You know, we were, we were living the life like we were. I felt like it was good, life was good. And we were, we were living our religion every single day.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] And I guess that would mean scripture study as a couple, individual scripture study, prayer as a couple, family prayer, personal

Donna Showalter [00:48:05] prayer, family home evening, the works, and when and when. There was a prophet who said, in the future, family prayer once a day won't be enough. If you want your kids to be firm in the gospel, you're gonna have to. We're gonna have to do better. And so we did family home evening. We did family prayer twice a day, morning and night. You know, we were all in. So. Because they told us, you know, like, I was raised Mormon and I turned out to be a good person with values and morals. And I really attributed that to the church. Like, that was my anchor, if and any goodness in my life. Me being a good person was because I was a member of the church. And so of course we want to raise our kids that way. We want them to be healthy, happy adults. And this is the way to do it. And it's really, it's the only way. There is no other way for your kids to be healthy, happy adults. So.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] And I guess it probably couldn't be overstated, the love and generosity of your husband taking on, oh my gosh, someone else's kids. Right?

Donna Showalter [00:49:13] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] And. And raising them as his own.

Donna Showalter [00:49:16] He didn't.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Responsibility.

Donna Showalter [00:49:18] Yeah. He didn't just marry me, he married my family. He married me and three kids. He married my children too. You know what I mean? Like, we were instant family.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] And he became their full time dad.

Donna Showalter [00:49:28] He was there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Their dad, Their dad lived in Salt Lake and had visitations, so he had him every other weekend. But yeah, Steve did all the dad things. He, you know, he got him up in the morning. You know, we were. He helped get him ready for bed at night. He babysat while he went to release society. You know, he did everything, he did everything that. And he loved them. He truly loved them as if he were there. Blood father, you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:49:57] He, yeah, they called him dad.

Donna Showalter [00:50:01] Yeah, our younger two did. My daughter, she was 6 when her dad left and 6 when Steve and I married. So we had a really short court courting, I guess. Anyway, so Katie was heartbroken when we divorced. She was daddy's little girl and he worshiped her and she worshiped him. They were buddies and him leaving was incredibly hard. I tried to make it really clear to my kids that he wasn't leaving them. He left me. He didn't want me. But he wants you. He loves you. That doesn't translate well when he's not there anymore. You know, she felt kind of abandoned, and I think that's normal, you know, but she did see him, and she still loved him. But it was really hard because in her mind at 6, where she didn't see the backstory and she didn't know everything else that happened to her, it felt like Steve came in and said to Dave, I'm taking your place. And Dave went away. When I didn't know Steve at all, when everything went down and we divorced. But in her mind, that's what I. It. That's kind of what it felt like. You know, this guy has come in and tried to take my dad's place, and he wants me to call him dad, and there's no way I'm calling him dad. And so there was a, like, clashing.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] I relate to that.

Donna Showalter [00:51:29] Yeah. So. But he. You know, he tried. He. He was an incredibly loving, responsible dad. I look back, and I'm like, he went from being a single college kid with roommates to being a dad. And the way he took that on.

John Dehlin [00:51:51] That's a steep curve. Like most people get to ease into one baby at a time. Kind of spaced out. That's a steep curve.

Donna Showalter [00:51:57] I can't. Yeah. Yeah. He came through with shining colors, so he's a really, really good dad. And I think there. There were definitely times when he doubted his parenting skills or, you know, do they, like, did they love me as much as I love them? You know, all those fears and doubts and stuff. Stuff, definitely. But. But he was incredibly loving.

Rising Through Church Callings and Leadership

John Dehlin [00:52:21] So as you think about the ascent into the Mormon dream that pinnacles with you being relief site president and then Stake Young woman's president, what was that journey like for your family? Like rising to the highest heights of church leadership for a woman, like, the journey along the way, what was that like?

Donna Showalter [00:52:39] I never thought of it as rising to heights. It was just. We go to church every Sunday. The bishop calls you in and says, I have a calling for you. And of course I say yes, because you do. I. You know, you. Just. Because I'm faithful and I'm devoted, and that's how I show my devotion. You know, that's like my sign between me and God that I'm all in, that I believe and I'm. And I trust and I. And I want to do whatever is asked of Me, and willingly and happily so. Never said no to a calling. And I've been every calling. There is truly every calling. Nursery, primary, every calling in Young Women's, including, like, personal progress, whatever. Personal progress coordinator, I don't know, Counselor, President in primary counselor and a president in Relief Society. I mean, at my age, you know, you've pretty much done it all. I've pretty much done it all.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] But as I'm thinking about what it must have been like for you, your parents have been divorced then you're getting divorced, now you're remarried. There's got to be sort of this transition from checkered past to like, okay, now I've arrived. I'm finally kind of living the Mormon dream and kind of like, I don't have to be ashamed about my past. I'm kind of like living the way.

Donna Showalter [00:54:01] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] And I do remember that.

Donna Showalter [00:54:03] I do remember there being times when we first got married that, you know, people would say, how long have you been married? We've been married two years, but I've got a six year old. So there's definitely a backstory there. And I was a little bit ashamed of it. I was kind of embarrassed that I had been divorced, you know, that now I have to explain that whole story. And so getting to a point where we, our family, like, meshed and it felt like a real family and, and we were, like, living the Mormon dream and, and it was nice to put that, that checkered past, I guess, behind me and, and, and prove that I was good enough, you know, Like, I will do whatever it takes and I'm going to be super faithful to prove to Heavenly Father, but also to my, to my ward, to my priesthood leaders that. That I, that I'm devoted and that I'm a true Mormon. I'm a true Mormon. And, and I wanted to, like, live down my past, I guess, outlive it. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] Yeah. So you were, you were kind of working extra hard to prove yourself, I get.

Donna Showalter [00:55:08] I hadn't thought about it that way, but I guess like every, you know, I've. I've never been like a mediocre. Like, I'm all in or I'm all out. You know what I mean? Like, in any job that I've had in school, like, I give it everything, you know, And I think it is kind of a way to prove myself, you know, like, if, if they, if they knew who I really am, they wouldn't like that me. So I need to, to be the very best person and be the most achieving so that I can prove to them that, that I am good enough. I just want to be good enough. I don't want to excel. I don't want to be amazing. I just want to be good enough.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] And were you enjoying, you know, those years, enjoying church service, enjoying the role of the gospel in your life?

Donna Showalter [00:55:52] Very happy, very content. I felt comfortable at home. It was my way of life. It's what I. Yeah, I breathed my religion. I lived my religion. You know, there was, it was so much a part of our life that it was like it was in every single aspect of my life. There was never a, honestly, never a waking moment where the church and the gospel didn't have influence on the choices that I made, the places that I went, the people that I spent my time with, what school I went to, who I married, how we raised our kids. Like our church, membership and faith in the church informed every decision every single day. Shapes. Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:56:46] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com come.

Donna Showalter [00:57:28] Now it's all just po in disguise. Love candy coated poison in the sky Jacobs full of candy co.

Part 2 of 5 · Ep. 1151

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Shapes.

Donna Showalter [00:00:05] Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. So we, we obviously we spent two hours talking about Michael's journey, him coming out as gay to you guys and kind of ways that that might have stretched and challenged you. I don't want to necessarily retell that story. I'll just refer listeners who didn't hear those first two hours to that. But just, you know, it saved, you know, your full blown faith crisis didn't start until 2019 and it wasn't until 2013. 14, 15, 15. Well, Michael came out to you in 2000.

Son Comes Out as Gay and Early Reactions

Donna Showalter [00:01:37] Michael came out to us in 2012, but we didn't believe him. We didn't think that was a thing. And it certainly didn't fit into the Mormon paradigm. And you know, so he's going through a phase or he hasn't even hit puberty, so how could he possibly know this, that therefore it's not a thing? And, and I didn't, I didn't try to educate myself or look beyond Mormonism for anything because I was, I guess I was in denial. Like, he's not really gay. So I don't need to know anything about being gay. Like I never have. I've never wanted to. And, and so why would I now? Because he's not really gay. So. Okay, but, but he came out in 2015 publicly and at home. Like we came to terms with it at some point where we realized he is gay. And that's not going to change. And it's not a phase. Like, this is part of Michael. This is part of who he is.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] And so prior to him really coming out in 2015, prior to the November policy, but that's the same year Isaacs communicated. And I can just say that kind of those 10 years from 2005 to 2015 was a really active year for kind of progressive and post Mormonism, you know, you can think about like blogs and then podcasts and the CES letter and the church essays and, and just all the, you know, the excommunications like you would think. And this is like one of the most stunning parts about Mormon stories. And my journey is, I'm thinking, whoa, this is really catching on. This stuff's covered in not just the Salt Tribune and the Deseret News, but these stories are covered. You know, polygamy stories or Jeremy Runnels or Hans Mattson or whatever it is. Multiple stories in the New York Times, Washington Post, even London newspapers, the world and Mitt Romney. Like, the world is talking about all these controversial Mormon things, all these people getting excommunicated, the essays, CES Letter, Mormon stories.

Donna Showalter [00:03:46] And.

John Dehlin [00:03:47] And how was that experienced by you and your husband kind of in the Provo bubble, as you call it?

Donna Showalter [00:03:52] It was not experienced.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] Explain that. Will you explain that to me?

Donna Showalter [00:03:56] I didn't know any of that was going on. That was not on my radar at all. How is that possible?

John Dehlin [00:04:02] New York Times, Salt Lake Tribune, Deseret News. It's in all the papers.

Donna Showalter [00:04:05] Because that's anti Mormon stuff.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:04:08] And. And I'm really good at shutting things. No, not going there. And. And. And LGBT issues, too. Nope, not going there and com. Like, I just would not. Would not. I remember hearing about the September 6th, and I didn't really know what that was. I knew that a bunch of people had been excommunicated. I think they had been at byu, the. And. And my immediate assumption, without knowing anything about it or ever finding anything out about it, was they did something wrong. They went against the church. They got excommunicated. They should have been excommunicated. The end move about, you know, go on with my happy little life. I'd heard, like, I'd heard the name John Dehlin, and I just. At some point, I think I knew that. And I didn't know what a podcast even was back then, but I remember hearing your name, but I remember hearing it in negative tones. Like, from where. I don't remember where I heard it, but it was like, John De Lynn excommunication. And that's as far as I took it. I was like, oh, you don't need to understand. John De Lynn.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Whoa. Stay way bad.

Donna Showalter [00:05:09] Yeah. Like, if. If it. If said the name John Dyn, I was like, nope. You know, I didn't. And that all your stuff, not on my radar. I. I knew that you were a bad guy.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:05:19] That's all I knew. Like, you'd been excommunicated, therefore you're a bad guy. And I don't want to know anything about it.

Orthodox Beliefs and Feminist Tensions

John Dehlin [00:05:23] What about ordained women and Kate Kelly and being a feminist and all that stuff?

Donna Showalter [00:05:27] I. Okay. I don't. I'm a feminist, I guess, like, in a good sense. I'm not military. No.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] At the time. At the time.

Donna Showalter [00:05:34] At the time, I remember hearing about Kate Kelly because she's related to someone in my ward, and that was bigger news, you know, for some reason that somehow got on my radar, but just barely, Like, a little blip. But I'm like, who wants to be? I would. Like, what woman in the LDS Church wants to have the priesthood? Like, that's ridiculous. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, the last thing on the planet I would want is to be the bishop. You know? Like, I can't even imagine anything worse. So, like, why would you want the priesthood? Like, why would they want that? So sacrilegious, blasphemous. Not the way things are done. Not the way it's ever been. Women don't hold the priesthood. So Kate Kelly went into the. Onto the shelf of bad people, right? And when she was excommunicated, I felt sorry for her. And I saw some of her media things, like news conference, whatever, and listened to her speak, and I'm like, she's super radical. Like, wow. Like, how could anybody follow her? And then I. I knew that she had some online something, and I went to look at it, and there were pictures of other women who supported her. And I'm like, you allowed your name and your picture to be put on a website with Kate Kelly. Like, you're standing behind that. Like, who are you? Like, you. Like, these women must be apostates. Like, I can't even imagine. I remember there was something out on social media at one point that said, women unite or something. You know, everybody wear pants to church on Sunday. And I was like, like, anybody's going to do that. Nobody's going to wear pants. You don't wear pants. Like, wow. Anyway, so kind of not on my radar. It was just anything like that was just pushed away quite successfully. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] And then, you know, like, the Book of Mormon historicity, the DNA in the Book of Mormon, like Book of Abraham and the translation controversies, Jo Dismiss, polygamy, polyandry.

Donna Showalter [00:07:38] I'd never heard of any of that. I had never heard of any of that through past.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] Well, past 2015.

Donna Showalter [00:07:45] Yeah. No, no.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] It's so unbelievable. Listen, with Fair, with Farms, with Maxwell

Donna Showalter [00:07:51] Institute, like, never even heard of Fair. Never heard of Farms. Never heard of the Maxwell. No, I had heard of the Maxwell Institute because I had been past the building where it was housed, but when it said FARMS outside, I'm like, they still do Farms here. Like, I thought we were past the agriculture. I honestly had no idea. It was not on my. Because I was so deeply enveloped in the church and in my devotion and my faith and. And wanting to be loyal and faithful. Those things just weren't on my radar. And if they ever came across my radar, they quickly went off again. It just wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] The church has such a powerful hold on information and on people's thoughts.

Donna Showalter [00:08:32] Well, and it's like you say, they don't let you leave with your dignity. I knew the name John de Lynn because you'd been kicked out with no dignity. You know, like, you were now smeared and marginalized. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And to. To listen to you was tantamount to also being an apostate. So like anything that you said, I would never. Even in 2019, beginning of two now, the night 2019, I had a friend who's like, you need to listen to this podcast by John de Lin. And as soon as the word John de Lynn came out mouth. So I was like, nope, I just won't. So. So the historicity of the Book of Mormon, of course it's real. I taught my primary children in front of the whole primary, during sharing time about the Book of Mormon and how it was written for our day. Like, it's so clear to me. Like, if you read it as a. As a book, like, you would read Harry Potter, you pick it up, you read it all the way through, right? Like, not studying, but, like, just read it all the way through. It's obvious that this was written for our day for me, for you right now, because history repeats itself and all the things that happen to them are. Could happen to us if we follow that path and blah, blah, blah, you know, it was real. Nephi was a real person. Like, he was, like, with flesh and blood. He was a real person. He lived in this world and he lived on this continent. And there were times when we traveled or whatever, even if we were just up in the mountains. And there were part. There was part of me that thought, I wonder if Nephi walked here. Like, did he see what I'm seeing? Like, the first person I wanted to see when I got to heaven was Joseph Smith and Nephi, truly. And President. President Kimball. I was scared of President Kimball as a teenager. He was my teenage prophet. But I also really admired him Anyway, so, yeah, the Book of Mormon is 100% factual. It happened. It all happened. The fact that Christ came here and gave the same sermon he gave in Jerusalem. Well, obviously he would have, because It's Christ, and he's teaching the most important truths and. And they're going to be almost word for word because what he taught them was so important that we would need to be taught it to, you know, the people in America. And so, of course he taught them, you know, what he taught in Matthew, he taught in Third Nephi. And I remember reading the Scriptures as a teenager and got to Third Nephi, where Christ came down and. And the whole story surrounding that and how the children were enveloped by flames and angels came down and ministered to them. And I pictured that, and in my mind, that was so real and true that it was as if I were there. And I remember reading that and just crying, thinking, this book is true. It was such a beautiful thought that Christ would come and angels would surround those sweet, innocent children with flames and that they. It was so real. It was so real and. And true.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] I mean, I'm watching you tear up as you tell the story of your orthodox Mormon beliefs. You. You must have really believed it and loved it.

Donna Showalter [00:11:58] I did.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] For how, how long?

Donna Showalter [00:12:01] My whole life.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] How many years?

Donna Showalter [00:12:04] 50.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] I mean, 49. 49, because.

Donna Showalter [00:12:08] 49. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we take off the part where I was a kid and didn't know, you know, so maybe my whole adult Life. So from 15, 16, 17 on, I. I was a true. Like, I was all in. Yeah, I'm a Mormon. True blue, tight, you know, dyed in the wool, whatever. I'm. I'm a true blue Mormon. And I would stand up for my rights. And I remember walking out of movies because they were PG13, or actually, I didn't go to PG13 movies, but even in a PG movie, if there was a scene that seemed a little inappropriate, I would get up and walk out. Like, even as a teenager and even as an adult, like, we lived in West Jordan, and I went to the movies with some friends in my neighborhood, and there was a part where they were talking about something that, I don't know, of a sexual nature. It was inappropriate, but it wasn't, like, explicit or anything. But I'm like, guys, I gotta go. And I, like, got up and walked out of the movie, went home and. And then felt sad and. And hoped that they. That they didn't think I was judging them, because I certainly wasn't. But I'm like, you know, I hope that they don't think that I think I'm better than them or whatever for walking out, but I just couldn't be there because the spirit's not there.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] So we're having great comments from listeners. So. Wendy says, this sounds so familiar.

Donna Showalter [00:13:32] I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:13:33] Brian says, what a great interview. Kristen. Hi, Kristen. Kristen writes, I think the reason so many members don't have any idea about outside information is because the only thing that matters is what the prophet is saying now.

Donna Showalter [00:13:46] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] If the prophet isn't saying it now, it's not important.

Donna Showalter [00:13:49] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Including overriding what past prophets have said. That doesn't matter.

Donna Showalter [00:13:54] No, because we. No, it's what's happening now. This is a living and true church with continued revelation and what they say is gospel truth. When the enzyme comes out. I studied it as if it were my scriptures because it is scripture.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] It is scripture.

Donna Showalter [00:14:08] For the next six months, it's scripture.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Yeah. I used to make the joke, how do you know if the prophet is speaking doctrine? His mouth is moving.

Donna Showalter [00:14:16] Oh, if it's said over the pulpit. There were times when, when we would have a discussion and, and somebody would say something that seemed like it could be a little off or what, you know, and Steve would say, where's that reference? Like he wanted the reference. If it was said in general conference over the pulpit. That is revelation. That is gospel truth. That came from God. Because the prophet is God's mouthpiece. He speaks for God. The end, you know.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Yeah. Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:14:40] So. And I never knew on, on basic doctrinal, like big doctrinal things that past prophets has said anything different than, than prophets nowadays. You know, I just knew these are our prophets now and we follow them and they're always going to lead us in the right direction. And it even says in one of the student manuals, I think it's church history, might be Book of Mormon quoting some, some general authority saying that God will never lead you astray. He will not allow the, the leaders of this church to lead you astray. If that were to happen, he. They would be taken out of. To me meant they, they would die of a heart attack or something like they would just be like, you know, taken up. They'd get cancer. I don't know. But they, we would never be allowed to be led astray. This is God's church. It just would not. He would not allow it to happen, you know, and, and President Nelson said, you don't need to worry about who to trust. You trust us. And I was like, didn't even need to say it, of course. I. Of course.

Life as a Relief Society President

John Dehlin [00:15:40] So we spent a lot of time talking to former Mormon bishops about what it's like to be a bishop, what's it like to be a Mormon Relief Society president or Stake Young Women's president.

Donna Showalter [00:15:54] Stressful.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] And then what's it like to do that in Provo?

Donna Showalter [00:15:56] It's super stressful. Oh, gosh. First, I have to say that I was primary president, and I remember looking in the mirror and feeling like I fit that description. Like, I looked in the mirror in the morning and I'm like, I'm the primary president. Like, yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] I'm happy, I'm perky, I'm positive. Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:16:13] And I love the kids so much.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] And it just.

Donna Showalter [00:16:15] It fit. It fit me like a glove. I. The bishop called me into his office. I had only. I had been a counselor in the primary, and then the president moved away. They put me in as a president, and I was in for about a year. And the bishop called me into his office and I thought, it's primary related or whatever. And he said, we would like to extend another calling. And I was like, but I've only been like, I. I thought I was safe for at least another year and a half, you know, from changing, whatever. Anyway, but Steve was there with me and he said, we want to call you to be the Relief Society president. And I immediately did the ugly cry. I mean, there was no, like, take a breath. I was like, like, how. How could this happen? Like, do you. No, like, I. I'm not really society material because I've seen the least study presidents in this ward, the ones before me, and I am not them. I am not Relief Society president material. I'm really good at supporting. I'll be a counselor. I'm really good at doing what I'm told, too. I'm very obedient. Anything that needs to be done, I will do it. It doesn't matter how hard it is, I will make it happen. But to be the one in charge, to be the release Saudi president. No, because I had always idolized and looked up to whoever was in charge the release Saudi president, you know, the bishop and I, I truly thought that they were as close to perfect as a person can get without being like the prophet and that. That you'd somehow arrived. When you. When you're the release study president, it means you've checked all the boxes and you have arrived and. And God trusts you so much that he's made you the. And I'm like, that is not me. That's not. I'm just me, right? And I cried and cried and cried. And of course, you don't turn a calling down. And I would never. I wouldn't. I didn't even want you know, I mean, of course I didn't want to be the really society president, but I wasn't going to turn that calling down. I'm like, of course I'll do it. But you, you realize it's just me. So he's like, we have so much faith in you. Anyway, so I became the really steady president, looked in the mirror and said, I'm the really excited president and said, ooh, like, I'm not. Like, I'm. I don't fit the mold. I, I'm not perfect. You know what I mean? Like, I, I'm. There's still so many things I'm working on and, and I'm just not. I'm not good enough, you know?

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:18:43] So then I go back.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] That's a theme. And that's a theme in your life, by the way.

Donna Showalter [00:18:47] Seems to me, huh.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] It's kind of sad, their authority after your talk, you know, if you only knew. Yeah, right.

Donna Showalter [00:18:53] Each time I still feel that way. Like, I have people make comments to me, you know, that are very kind and I go, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] But my guess is you're not the only Mormon woman to feel that way.

Donna Showalter [00:19:06] Probably I'm not the only woman or person.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] I'm just saying there's a, there's a striving in this culture that implies never enough.

Donna Showalter [00:19:14] I just have to prove, yeah, yeah, it's never going to be enough. There's nothing you can do to be good enough there. You will never get there, you know, be perfect. Even as my father in heaven. And, and, and then to. It was such a relief to me. At one point, somebody in a lesson said, that doesn't mean you have to be perfect in this life. It means that's what we're striving for. And when we get to heaven, then we'll reach perfection. I was like, okay, okay. So I'm like, But I'm still like, that doesn't change my behavior. I'm still going to try to be perfect, you know, it just, it just means that if I don't make it in this life, at least I won't go straight to hell. And, and many, many thoughts throughout my life that I, I may, I might not make it to the celestial kingdom. Like, if I die today, it was a, It's a constant theme in my head. If I die today, will I go to heaven? If I die today, will I go to the celestial kingdom? And oftentimes the answer was no. Like, no. And, and then, okay, I've got a lot more work to do. And I just like Jump on it and go. But being the Relief Society president didn't feel like it fit. But I. But I. I loved it. I loved. I didn't love the attention. I hated sitting at the front of the room because it felt pretentious. You know, look at me. I'm at the front of the room. And, And. But at the end, our bishop had asked us to do that. And I understand, like, the reason he said we should do it is because the. The women need to know who you are so that if they have needs, they know who to go to. And I was like, all right, I could get behind that. So I sat at the front of the room. I loved serving. I loved the lessons. I loved the sisterhood that I felt with. With the people in my ward, the closeness that I felt. I fit. I fit. I belonged. You know, I belonged there. It was really nice to. There were needs in our ward at that time that were pretty heavy duty, and I was so happy. Not happy, because the needs came from just health issues and stuff that were really hard for. For those people to. To be living with. But if I could be there and, And. And relieve that even a little bit, whatever that meant, I was so happy to do that. And I didn't go back to church and say, I did this and I did. You know what I mean? It was just like, this is. I got up in the morning, I took my shower quickly, I went to this person's house, spent four hours with them every single day. Every single day.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] So without identifying, like, people getting sick, people having babies, like, what are the types of issues a relief study president might help out with?

Donna Showalter [00:22:08] Babies being born. Funerals were kind of a big thing. Everybody rallied. It's really interesting and a beautiful thing. Someone dies either expectedly or unexpectedly, and within three days, we've got this giant event planned and executed and cleaned up after. And you know what I mean? Like, the way people rally behind families and. And come together and are so willing and eager to help in whatever way that means, whether it means bringing funeral potatoes or going early to set up chairs, you know, whatever. It meant that people showed up always. You know, so babies being born, people, funerals and stuff. Unexpected, tragic death, severe health issues, life threatening. And then there's the. The needs of, like, getting financial help from the bishop. And my, My part in. In. In doing that and helping people in that way and, I don't know, mowing lawns for people, you know, babysitting kids while they went to the temple or they, you know, went to the grocery store. Taking care of kids while the mom has super bad morning sickness, babysitting the twins so that the mom can be home with the newborn. Just, you know, all the things that happen in life in a ward, you know, being there for it. And truly I felt like there were some. Lots and lots of minor miracles and several gigantic miracles. I don't know if there's another word for that that's not Mormon. That would explain. But times when we had families who had needs at Christmas time. And so we were giving out food baskets and clothing and hams and stuff like that to different people in the warden and being short one ham and then having someone call up and say, hey, we have an extra ham in our freezer. And it was exactly what we needed, exactly when we needed it. And I remember delivering these hams in the middle of the night, so it's dark outside and I've got like, you know, ten pound hams and I'm delivering them and getting that one last ham. And I remember standing in the middle of the road with that ham and just like looking around and going, nobody knows this is happening. Like nobody knows this miracle, but I know. And being really grateful that I got to. To be there.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] To be there what?

Donna Showalter [00:24:45] To just be part of it.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Did you love it? Was it a pain? What was it? How would you describe that service?

Donna Showalter [00:24:56] I had a thought one day I was leaving this lady's house after helping her with some stuff and I was going back to my car and I was exhausted, like physically, mentally exhausted. And. And I. And I just remember walking to my car but feeling exhilarated at the same time, like I need a nap, but I'm so happy and, and fulfilled. I feel. I feel very fulfilled. And. And I remember as I'm walking across the street thinking to myself these thoughts, like, this was the thought in my head, even if this church weren't true, I would belong. Like, I would be here because of this. Because I feel like. I have the capacity to love and serve and this is the. My outlet. It's my way to do that. It's how I love and serve. And not because I wanted celestial glory or because I was trying to make my way to heaven or to prove myself to the Stake President. It was because I wanted to. It made me feel good, it made me happy. And. And the love that I had for the people in my have for the people in my ward was very strong. So, yeah,

John Dehlin [00:26:21] beautiful comments are coming in from listeners. Cher writes. Donna Showalter is a great person. Cher McCoy. That's very kind. Trent says as she is demonstrating humans are the only real angels and source of miracles. That's his opinion, but it's very kind. Clearly you guys were miracles to many people, as you said. Tamara writes, I love serving as well. Juliet. Hey, Juliet. She connects with the idea that no one's ever good enough in church. There's always a strive to do better and I think that's a double edged sword because it makes you want to serve and excel and it motivates you. And for some there might be a really high cost. But you know, I was just having this thought as I, you know, again, the Mormon stories, the podcast has been going on for 14 years and Jeremy Runnels, the CES letter has been really successful and you know, Bill Real and John Larsen, there's a lot of male run podcasts that have, you know, made a big difference. And of course Lindsay Lindsey Hansen park did your polygamy and she runs Sunstone. But I've been really.

Donna Showalter [00:27:36] Natasha.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] What's that?

Donna Showalter [00:27:37] Natasha Parker.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Natasha Alfred Parker and she's amazing. And Gina Colvin. But I've been really stunned by when I've watched the Mama Dragons and when I've watched Stephanie Larsen within Circle and when I've watched Waka women of a certain age, the level of sophistication and impact that these female led organizations. And I think I'd count Sunstone in that as well. Like the ability to, that women, Mormon women have to organize and get stuff done, bring people together, navigate conflict, serve is like. It's something profound at a level that for me eclipses what, you know, I've seen men be able to do in

Donna Showalter [00:28:25] the same arena and without being paid

John Dehlin [00:28:28] just as good fame or attention or money.

Donna Showalter [00:28:32] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] It's profound.

Donna Showalter [00:28:35] Release Society is a really good training ground for that. I think for me it was anyway, you know, being part of the Release Society, not the president, but just being in Relief Society, watching how people, women rally and, and really rise to whatever occasion it is and get stuff done. Like we got stuff done.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Yeah. And I think about, and I, this is not to be self effacing or like blow sunshine, but like in a million years I couldn't have done what Stephanie Sorensen did with, with the Circle.

Donna Showalter [00:29:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] No Stephanie Larsen or what Kim Turner's done with Waka or, or with what Lindsay's done with Sunstone. There is something profound about what Mormon women can do that we have no idea.

Donna Showalter [00:29:19] Yeah, Yeah. I look at what Stephanie's done and it blows me away and it makes me like I need a nap. Like, I'm exhausted just thinking about what she's done. This monumental thing where it's not just like had this idea of this would be a good thing, but actually went and did that thing. And it's been so huge and life changing and life saving and perspective changing. Like so many people in all these organizations changed and helped and bettered because a woman stood up and said, I'm going to change this thing.

Women, Priesthood, and the Church Patriarchy

John Dehlin [00:29:58] But bringing this back to you and other women who serve in such callings, like men are in leadership. It's the patriarchy in the Mormon Church. It's the elders quorum presidents and the high priest group leaders and the bishops and the Stake High Councilmen and the Stake President, the Stake Presidency and the general authorities, they sort of get all this attention, they get all this power, right? But when it comes down to like what lived experiences really drive devotion and commitment to the church, it's gotta be that a huge percentage of that is the experiences that people have connected to female service in the church. It's the casseroles that get delivered, it's the funerals that get taken care of. Like you said it yourself, you know, you were like, at some point, even if the church weren't true, I'm in this because it's so wonderful how many millions of Mormons are like, you know, the church may not be true, but these women delivered these casseroles. These women visited me when I was sick, these women watched my kids, these women took care of me or my wife when we had cancer. You know, these women planned the funeral. These women have provided so much service. Even if the church weren't true, I'm in it.

Donna Showalter [00:31:19] It's a great organization. Like, even if it weren't faith based, if it was just an organization where we served and helped each other, it's a great thing.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] But yeah, it's a great organization. But also in some ways it's the backbone of the church. The priesthood and male authority and patriarchy is kind of held up as the backbone of the church, all that leadership and priesthood leaders. But that's almost like a facade for maybe what the real heart and soul of Mormonism is, which is the community, which is largely driven by women without, without the fame, without the power, without the hard power, without the real recognition behind the scenes. In some ways, that's the real Mormonism, I think, or at least I think the heart of Mormonism.

Donna Showalter [00:32:10] The heart, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:11] Am I overstating it?

Donna Showalter [00:32:13] No. I think behind every good man is a great woman. So I think for me, personally, okay, I. You have to know, too, I was raised by a Texan, so from Texas. And it's a whole different culture mindset down there, especially back in the day, right. So children were meant to be seen, not heard. It is, at least in my family, 100 obedience to whatever I tell you to do right this minute, like you will, no questions asked. And, you know, if my dad said jump, I'd say, how high? You know, because the. The consequences for not were dire. And so I learned from a very young age, just as part of the culture of growing up, where I grew up and how. And, you know, obedience and keep and. And be quiet and do what I tell you to do. So I fetched. I fit in at church, you know, be quiet. Okay. And I always felt like I could speak my mind, whether or not they took my advice, whatever, but I always felt like I could speak my mind. But I was also very obedient. You know, I'm just an obedient person. Tell me to do it and I'll do it, you know?

John Dehlin [00:33:33] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:33:34] With everything I've got.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] So how does the church do that? How does the church get women to obey and serve without giving them the authority and the attention and the money, you know, that men get? How do they do that?

Donna Showalter [00:33:55] I have no idea. I think it. I think for most women, there's a desire to do good and there's this. All the talks about, you'll never quite be good enough, but keep on trying. And so we just keep trucking along, like, I'm gonna. I gotta prove myself, you know, and. And. And I. And I think for a lot of people, too, like, there have been periods in my life where that. That's how I felt. And there have been periods where I'm like, this is. This is what I'm living for. Like, this is. I love it. I love it. I don't care if they don't want my opinion in War council, I'm happy to sit quietly. Like, I. I'm not a Kate Kelly, although I admire her. I. I've just always been like, I'll lead if you want me to, but I'll also follow if you want me to. I'm very malleable. Malleable. So.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] And some are going to say that's like servitude, or that's like internalized sexism, or that's like, abusive, or some are going to say that's. That's bad that women are subjugated and made to be subservient in the church and don't have equality and don't have power. That's one way to look at it. There's probably truth in that, that you guys were kind of victims or taken advantage of.

Donna Showalter [00:35:15] I don't feel that you're not like

John Dehlin [00:35:16] it, because there's another point of view, which is like, hey, we don't have to deal with all that crap. Yeah, we get to just.

Donna Showalter [00:35:22] I don't want to be the elders Quorum president. I don't want to be the bishop. Like, why would I? That's ridiculous. Like, who would want that? Like, so I'm happy to just go about my business, do my little thing, you know.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] You didn't want that?

Donna Showalter [00:35:35] No.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] Because. Why?

Donna Showalter [00:35:38] Because I had seen the long hours and the worry and that and that. I don't. I honestly, being the Relief Society president, I knew things about things and people in the ward that I did not want to know about. Like, it was a. It was a burden and it. And it made me worry and it. I mean, it increased my love for sure. But to be the bishop and have to be the one who could. Who to actually fix it. Like, I don't. I don't want that. It's too much. Too much pressure, you know?

John Dehlin [00:36:12] And when ordained, women was sort of more of a thing, and people were paying attention to it. At some point, I think the Trib or the Desert News did a survey of Mormon women. It turned out that women wanted the priesthood even less commonly than men wanted it. For the women, in other words, Mormon active, devoted Mormon men were more concerned about women having the Mormon priesthood than women were. And all of us just made the assumption, well, they're just. And this is going to sound rude, and I don't mean to totally overgeneralize, but I think a lot of us just said, well, they don't know better. It's just internalized sexism. They're just so downtrodden and abused that they don't even know what they want or what's good for them. It sounds like maybe that's an inadequate reading, maybe even an insulting reading, that in reality, women, Mormon women maybe just really enjoy what their role is and realize that the role that the men have isn't something they're very interested in because it's painful or tedious or uninteresting relative to what their role is, which is compassionate service, almost Christlike service. Is that possible?

Donna Showalter [00:37:32] Yeah, I think for me, I listened. My ears perked up when the prophet would speak and say, you're doing better than you think you're doing, you know, just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing great. And women. Women, we love the women in our church. They're. They're so great. And. And they're such nurturers. And then there were the lessons in probably Sunday school that said men have the priesthood because they can't have babies. And so that was God's way of, like, compensating. So I always felt like my calling as a mother was, like, super divine and made me really, really special. And the guys got, like, the booby prize. You know, they get the priesthood because they can't have babies. And I really. I believed that. And so. And I feel like a lot of women. I don't want to overgeneralize either, but a lot of women that I've known are happy to. Just. Like, we. This is gonna sound bad. We know our place. Like, I know that Relief Society and Primary Women's is my half of the building, and that's your half of the building, and it's totally fine. I know what I'm doing is good, and good things are coming from it. And I always felt respected and admired and loved by my priesthood leaders, brethren, whatever. And. And so I. For me, it was never. This has never been an issue.

John Dehlin [00:38:54] So there's a part of me wondering, like. Because I know other women that are just, like, furious about this and really agitated, really on fire, and, yeah, really resentful. Like, they look at. They get to 40 or 50 or 60, and they're like, I can't believe what I let men do and how I gave my power away. So as I talk to you, I'm trying to decide where on the continuum you are of just, like, not having had some super feminist awakening yet, and that's in the future to just a different personality type, maybe, and that just. People value different things. And this is just where you come down in terms of personality and values, right. Relative to other people.

Donna Showalter [00:39:31] And I'm not invalidating anyone else's right, like how wherever someone falls on that spectrum, that's valid and that's their experience, and that's. And that's how they feel, and that should be honored and respected. And just saying, for me, this is how I feel about things.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] Okay, so, yeah, today.

Donna Showalter [00:39:48] Yeah, yeah, maybe tomorrow change. And. And my daughter is. Is ultra feminist, and I'm so proud of her. She's so strong, and she has found her voice. That's the thing. I also feel like I didn't realize that I didn't have a voice until Michael came out, a little while after Michael came out, but. And then finding my voice and realizing that what I have to say matters and that I need to speak my truth, that has been really, really valuable for me. But I didn't come to that until Michael came out and I was put in a position where I had to speak. I could not have stayed silent. So for those who have found their voice, I applaud that. You know, my daughter is. Is. Has a strong, beautiful, knowledgeable, wise voice.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:40:46] And it's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] But from the tears you were shedding, it's clear that you deeply loved the opportunity to serve in primary and Young Women's and Relief Society.

Donna Showalter [00:40:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] Was there ever a concern. And maybe we've already addressed this, but, like, men are always. Men control the budget. Men have to approve who you want as a counselor. You know, men. Men are always visible. Men get to make the final decisions, like, either on the ward or stake level. Was there ever any of that in your mind?

Donna Showalter [00:41:23] There were times when, you know, we know that callings are given by inspiration, and it's a calling from God. And when I've been given callings, that's the way it's been framed. This is a calling from Heavenly Father to you. It's been, you know, we've prayed or whatever, and you are the name. You're the person for this calling. And I believed that. And so there were times as a. As a leader where I would submit a name and they would come back and say no, and I would say, so I would question myself, like, if. If I got inspiration and. And this person is supposed to be a primary teacher, but. But now my bishop is saying, I can't have that person, then I must have done something. I must have done it wrong. Like, I got my wires crossed somehow. So I'm back to the drawing board, you know. And then there were times also where I. I submitted a name and they said no, and I said, listen, I know that this is a person who's supposed to be doing this. Like, it has been confirmed to me, or whatever. Whatever language we use, you know, like, I feel like this is their calling and this is what they need to do. And there have been times where they're like, nope. And then there were other times when they're like, well, we will consider that. And although very rarely, there were times when someone was released. There was a time when, trying to remember the timeline, I was the release society president, and there was a counselor in the primary, and I knew that she was supposed to Be my counselor. And I asked for her. And they're like, well, that's going to throw everything into chaos, and now we're going to have to call somebody else to be hurt. You know, for them, it's a lot more like office work, the bureaucracy. I didn't realize it then. I'm like, but this is the person who's supposed to be my counselor. And so I'm like, I insisted, like, that's. She. She is supposed to be my counselor. And they're like, okay. And so they released her from primary and they put her in. Or maybe it was the other way around, I don't remember. But they. They put her in my presidency and then had to change that presidency around. And. But I mean, that. That happened very rarely. Most of the time it was like, nope, you can't have that person. I go, okay. And I go, you know, obedient Donna. Go back to the drawing board and pray about somebody else.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] But it sounds like you were happy in that.

Donna Showalter [00:43:27] Oh, I was totally. Totally. I was a. Like, I was a fish in water. Like, this is my element. It's. It's my life. It's all I've ever known. It's all I've ever done. It's all I want to do. Like, I don't want anything else. I don't want the priesthood. I don't want to know who John De Lynn is or. You know what I mean? Like, I. I want that bubble in Provo is. Is real. I was in it and happy. Happy in my bubble.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] So lots of comments. I'm going to hold off because they're going to take us away from your story. So really quickly, tell us about Provo culture. So your ward is about where geographically in Provo. Is it near the mcc, near the Temple? No, we're still the river bottom. Like, we're.

Donna Showalter [00:44:13] We are what's called The. The Timp View ghetto. So they realigned temp view boundaries. And so it's like the strip. So it's the east bench, but it goes all the way south, too. So that's the ghetto. So I'm actually like, over by Seven Peaks and the. The State Hospital.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] Okay, so more south in Provo is. Is more considered a little bit more ghetto. I'm sure you use that term.

Donna Showalter [00:44:37] We use that term all the time. You know, but we. We also have had many opportunities to move and have not. Because we feel like within our bubble, our Provo bubble, there's this other bubble. Like, we've lived all over the country, so we've been. We've been in the mission field. We've lived where, you know, your neighbors aren't Mormon, and. And you come together from 50 miles out to church on Sunday or to your activities or whatever. And so. So we had heard about Utah and Utah Mormons and the culture here, and I was terrified. And the ward that we moved into, when we first moved back to Utah, we lived in West Jordan, and that was a delightful ward. We loved him, and we fit in really well. And then we moved down to Provo. There was a change of jobs, and so this was closer to my husband's job. And so we moved down here and we. We. Our house in West Jordan, I don't know if it was like we were in the bubble or like the financial. I don't know. But when we realized, we. With this new job, it wasn't. It wasn't. It was less money. But there's that saying, some pay doesn't come in an envelope. And it was an opportunity that my husband desperately wanted. And so we. We realized we can't afford this house, so we're going to move down to Provo into a cheaper house. And. And when we realized that, we, like, called a realtor, and she's like. She gave us the. She listed it that day, and she gave us bullet points, like, clean out your closet, make sure your carpet's clean, whatever. So she left. I immediately started taking coats out of the closet, and 20 minutes later had a phone call, and six hours later, our house was sold. And we're like, huh, we have to find something quick. You know? And all the things that we looked at, we didn't like. There was this one house that we liked, and. And we bought it and. And we lucked out. I. Maybe it's because we. We like to say our ward is different because. Because we. It's more humble, if that makes sense. Like, socioeconomically, we're not up by the temple, right? But there's. So there's no. There's no competition of, my clothes are better than yours. My car is better than. My house is bigger. You know, I have more stuff than you. We're all just, like, trying to get by. Like, we're, you know, everybody's living their lives, and we each recognize that my neighbor struggles just like I do. And there's a camaraderie in that. There's a feeling of unity and community where we're all struggling together. And when we got to a point where we weren't struggling anymore and we could have moved to the other side of Provo or whatever. We chose to stay because we love our ward. We love our neighbors. They are. They are sincere, incredible people, you know, and. And we watched their kids grow up. You know, I've watched children be born and grow up. I've watched kids go from like, saggy diaper in the backyard to serving a mission. And I watched every day as they grew. And there, you know, we. There was. There's such a connection there. We're part of these people's lives. We're all this tapestry that weaves together that is, you know, my ward. And. And we're part of that. And we felt like we were really integrated and we were part of it. You know, we didn't. We don't want to leave that.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] So you've been in this ward how long?

Donna Showalter [00:47:59] 16 years.

John Dehlin [00:48:00] That's a long time.

Donna Showalter [00:48:01] It is for us. We've neither. Neither Steve, my husband, or I have ever lived any place this long, you know, ever. So we've put down some deep roots. So.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:48:15] And we like our dentist. We don't want to move.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Good dentist.

Donna Showalter [00:48:18] We love our dentist. We've been going to him for 15 years anyway.

The November 2015 Exclusionary Policy Shock

John Dehlin [00:48:22] Okay, so that brings us to. That makes where we're about to go even more interesting because. So we know that your son comes out even more formally to you in the world at age 16, around 2015, prior to the November policy, and that even though you had a couple years notice on that, you all kind of just stuffed that back in the closet and tried to ignore it.

Donna Showalter [00:48:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] So tell us about. We don't. We don't need to revisit the story with Michael. We can tell the audience. Check out the two hours where Michael talks about coming out, you know, at Tinview High School to his ward to surrounding area and what that was like. He definitely became depressed and suicidal. And Donna spent, as she told us, a couple of years trying to come to accept and embrace him, but also trying to keep him alive as he went to the hospital more than once under desires or fears around suicide and suicidality. So when do you consider your faith, the cracks in your faith starting to happen?

Donna Showalter [00:49:35] I don't know. Like, when Michael came out, that didn't shake my faith at all because I knew that the church was true and right and real, and somehow this had to fit. And it was just figuring out how to fit it. Like, you turn that puzzle piece until it fits, and then it fits and everything's fine. So I knew that that would somehow work out. I had in my phone quotes from ward members, people in, you know, over the pulpit, in general conference, you know, many, many, many quotes about the atonement and loving people and how everything's going to work out and it's all going to be fine. And Neil Marriott gave a talk, I can't remember when now, but she said, you know, she talked about their family motto, that everything will be okay. And she said, doesn't mean that it'll be okay right now. It means that for the meek and faithful, everything will be okay. And I clung to that like it doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't fit into anything I know or have ever known. But it's okay because it's all gonna work out. Like I will find the answer and not that, not that in this, in the far distant future or after life, it'll all work out like I felt sure that there was gonna come a time where I had the answer to my prayer of why is my son gay? And then everything would be fine. We just had to find it. And. And so I just spent a lot of time finding or trying, never did, but trying to find how my son fit, you know, and what the answer was that could make, make everything go back to normal, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] So that's kind of mind blowing that. Number one, you missed all the 10 years of the Mormon liberal, progressive Internet. But then also that you could have a gay. Like on the one hand, I get it, the Mormon orthodoxy hold is very strong.

Donna Showalter [00:51:31] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] And I know plenty of gay Mormons that remain orthodox believers, so.

Donna Showalter [00:51:37] And that's valid too.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] Yeah. No, no, no. And that's, it's not about not being valid, it's just being like kind of really fascinating.

Donna Showalter [00:51:44] Yes, yes. I think about that sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:51:47] Yeah. That like this is interesting because I mean, it is fair to say that still in 2019, the church doesn't really embrace or accept it's gay members. I mean, it says to love them and it's trying to not be mean, but it's certainly not saying we love you for who you are and be who you are and we accept you no matter what. So the logic is that certainly if you're gay, but even if you're a family member of a gay or lesbian Mormon and you love that family member and you don't reject them, then you're going to be like, now wait a minute, this church can't be true if it's not creating an open accepting place for my gay child. And if they're thinking about killing themselves, certainly God's one true church. Can't make someone want to kill themselves. So the church must not be true. That's. That's the logic. Connect the dots that many of us would have. Not to mention. Again, trying to wonder how the thousands and tens and thousands and hundreds of thousands of actual gay, lesbian Mormons who are faithful still somehow find a way to connect those dots and remain believer. Yeah, but how do you explain how that isn't just immediately, you know, your son's about to kill himself. Church isn't true. Let's all get out of this thing. No, how do you.

Donna Showalter [00:53:02] Totally true. The church is true. That's not even an issue. That's not. That's not even on the table.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] It's not a person for discussion.

Donna Showalter [00:53:09] No, it's just. Yeah, so. So my job then, as a mom, is to fit this new information into what is, what is, and what's true and what's real. You know, and if I'm not. If it's not fitting, then. Then. Then that I need to learn more or I need to do more or I need to, like. It's just. There's. There's a conference talk I haven't heard yet, and as soon as I hear that, it's all going to make sense. He's going to fit. You know, he didn't feel safe at church, but I never thought that's because the church isn't true. I just thought, you know, I know the Stan.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] The.

Donna Showalter [00:53:44] The church's stance on LGBT issues, sort of. And. And. And he doesn't feel safe here. I don't understand why he doesn't, but he doesn't. And I. And. And I'm okay, you know, that's okay with me. But that doesn't change my faith. It doesn't change the way I think and feel and, and what I know to be true. And so it wasn't until the policy, the exclusionary policy in 2015 that I was thrown. Just thrown. I. I read it on Facebook in the morning while I was getting ready for work.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Okay, wait, so up until November 2015, you're, like, still fully orthodox?

Donna Showalter [00:54:27] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:54:28] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:28] So the first real crack was that November 2015.

Donna Showalter [00:54:32] Yeah. Even then. Even then, I. I'm like, this doesn't. Michael called me and said, mom, did you read this? And I was like, I did. And he said, what do you think? And it was almost confrontational. Like he wanted me to take his side or. You know what I mean? Like, does this mean you're out of the church? Or, you know, And I said, you Know what? I don't know. I don't know. Because I've never doubted for one moment that a prophet or member of the Quorum of the twelve, past, present, future could ever be wrong. Or, you know, that they, they got this wrong or this is a mistake, or everything they do and say is inspired from Heavenly Father. It's direct revelation. Christ, his with his flesh and blood body sits in the temple with the prophet. Like, I truly believed that. And that when the prophet speaks, he speaks for God. Not when he speaks for God, he's speaking for God. When the prophet speaks, he's speaking for God. This is God speaking to us. I took that very seriously. So. So when God says, we don't want your gay kids, and if you're gay kids get married, we don't want their kids either. Again, I was like, it's come from the prophet and therefore it is true. And my job now is to make it make sense. And if I, if it doesn't make sense to me, it's because I'm doing something wrong. I'm thinking about it and I'm thinking about it in the wrong way or something. Like, it has to fit. And if it doesn't, I mean, 16 million members and a prophet of God living on the earth, breathing today. If, if, if I have an issue, it's my issue. Like, who am I to say, you don't speak for God? I would never ever even think it, let alone say it. So when the policy came out, I read it over and over and over again. I cried and cried and cried and. And it came out on a Thursday, I think, or Friday. Michael had stopped going to church by then. And every Sunday was horrible for me because my son's not in church with me. And that morning, that Sunday, I got up and I went into his room to kiss him goodbye when I would, you know, because I was going to church and I went to church. And I'm walking to church thinking, no wonder he doesn't want to be there. No wonder he doesn't feel safe. Like, I get it, I get it. And so I stopped fretting so much that he wasn't at church, because I'm like, I don't know that I would be at church either if I were in his place. And that was a big step for me. Obviously, I'm still going to go because church still true and he still speaks for God. And I just need to make it fit somehow. Anyway, so. And then somebody, I think in church actually said, I think they got this wrong. And I was like. Like I was waiting for lightning to come down and strike them. Like, the prophet's never wrong. What? Like, who? How dare you? Honestly, how dare you? Like, that is so. It's unthinkable. It's unthinkable that they got this wrong. No, but then. But then I started thinking about it over a long period of time, thinking, could they. Like, is it possible for them to get it wrong? And then somebody. Somebody else said at some point, it's possible that they got this wrong. And I'm like, but what are the. What is the possibility that they got this wrong? And it just blew my mind that anyone could think it, let alone say it. But it didn't sit right with me. I know my son, and I know at least the God that I thought I knew. That Heavenly Father knows my child like, he knows me when I pray because I've lost my keys, he helps me find them. I find my keys. And it's because God answered my prayer because he knows. He knows me individually, he knows my son. And if he knows my son, there's no way he would say to Michael, we don't want you here. There's no way. And so that it opened the possibility in my mind that maybe in this one thing, they got it wrong. And I was like, just to think it. I was like, oh, gosh, you know, And I don't know that I said it out loud for even a couple of years, you know, that maybe they got. There's a possibility they got this wrong. And. And. And so then I had a friend. She's. She's articulate and smart and. And spiritual and incredible. And she said, what does your inner voice tell you about this? And I'm like, I don't really need to ask my inner voice, because the prophet said it, therefore, I mean, the thinking's been done. I don't need to think about this. It's just making it fit somehow. And she goes, no. Like, if you had to, like, come up with your own, like, what is right for me and my family right now? What is right for me to do concerning my son Michael? And I had never even considered that. Like, I'd never even thought of that. And. And so I had to. I'm like, oh, personal revelation. But personal revelation is only used, should I buy Rice Krispies or Chex? Do you know what I mean? Like, personal revelation is like, who should I have for this calling? Or how should I teach my lesson? Or who should I go visit today? That's what personal revelation is for. It's for my calling and maybe for my family. Like, what should we do for family home evening tonight? It wasn't for. Is it possible that God is telling me something different than he's telling his prophet? It's unthinkable. Like, no. But I'm like, But I was in so much pain, struggling with my faith and trying to hold on to my son and trying to keep him alive, but also trying to figure out how he fits into the plan. And, you know, there was a moment where I thought, what does my. What does my inner voice say? And my inner voice is telling me they got it wrong. And that was a hard. That was hard. It was hard to say, hard to think, hard to acknowledge, accept. And then it was hard to think, too, what. What next? If they got it wrong, then what? Like, what now? What? You know? And so. But also, Jacob said he got an email from a mom who said, my kid just came out. What do I do? I'm lost. And he said, love your kid. Just love them. Love your kid. And it was so clear to me, crystal clear. I don't need to have the answer to this right now. I don't need to make any decisions right now. I just breathe. Just breathe and love my kid. That's all. And. And. But then I. If I love my kid, then I'm going against the church. And I've never gone against the church ever, in anything, not even in a. Oh, society loves their sh.

John Dehlin [01:02:58] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com.

Donna Showalter [01:03:37] It doesn't matter now. It's not just put waing in disguise. Teacups full of candy Cops full of candy co.

Part 3 of 5 · Ep. 1152

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Shapes.

Donna Showalter [00:00:05] Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Now, the church would never frame it that way, that you have to choose between loving your kid and the church.

Choosing Between Family and Church Loyalty

Donna Showalter [00:01:10] Well, they wouldn't say it that way.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] How so? How does that. How does that.

Donna Showalter [00:01:14] But actually, they have. Actually, they have. D Todd Christofferson said in a talk there. There may be times when, when even loved ones, and he names mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, make choices that are inconsistent with our beliefs or whatever. And it makes it necessary for you to sever ties, distance yourself from them. Basically shun. Like, in certain situations, it's okay to shun your kid. And I know LGBT people who've been kicked out of their house as teenagers, young teenagers, because they didn't fit the mold. And that was. That was also one of those things that never entered my mind. Like, it. Like there was never ever even a moment where I thought, maybe we should have Michael move out. No. Like, I would never choose anything or anyone above my kid. How. Like anybody who knows anything about human nature. Don't ask. Don't ask a mother to choose anything over her child. Like what? You just don't. Don't ask me to choose.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] And so you felt like you were being asked to choose between the church and your kid?

Donna Showalter [00:02:35] Yeah, yeah. Or even if we didn't kick him out, we needed to still have the same belief system that it was wrong and evil and wicked and it was going to be the downfall of our

John Dehlin [00:02:44] civilization, that they were broken, that they were less than perfect, that they needed to be fixed.

Donna Showalter [00:02:49] I have to tell you this. Soon after Michael came out, when we were absolutely distraught and just feeling like our whole world had shattered and we didn't even know where to begin to pick up the pieces. And you have to know, too, that when Michael came out at 12, 13, between then and 16, I did not educate myself on anything LGBT related. Like, it was too scary and too real, and I just didn't. And I regret that. But I thought because I'd been taught by our leaders that if you have Enough faith, you can be healed of this. And a loving God would. What God would do that to his. To one of his creations, Boyd K. Packer, and people who are lgbt, it's okay to beat them up. You know what I mean? Like, these are the messages over and over again. And so I didn't know how to make it fit, but had to fit anyway. But we thought at that time that this was like a sickness or a trial or something, and that Michael could be healed. And we thought if he could get a priesthood blessing that he. He could be healed. And his patriarchal blessing said that he would marry in the temple to a young woman. And, you know, all the things they say. And so we thought, we just have to. So Steve wrote a letter to Elder Holland and detailed our story and asked him, I think, in deep humility, will you please heal our son? Like, we hear about those talks in general conference where they're at a state conference and they get a feeling. The spirit directs them to this house and there's somebody sick there and they give them a blessing and they're healed, or they go to primary Children's Hospital and they give a blessing, and it's, you know, all these miraculous stories. And we thought, he can heal our son, too, and everything can go back to normal. And so he wrote in this letter, and we thought. And we. And we said in the letter, too, like, we live in Provo, like, we'll drive to Salt Lake. You don't even have to leave your office. Like, we'll come. It won't even take that long. Like a two minute, two minutes is all. And it would be life changing for us. It would change the whole trajectory of Michael's life and our life and things could go back to normal and please heal our son. And we sent that letter with faith that it. That it was possible and it could be done. And because we were asking something so small that it would be done. And our stake president called us in and said, I've received a letter, you know, your letter to President Holland was sent back to me. And I knew that that's the order of things. That's how it's done. But it was so hurtful, It was so traumatic to be sitting in the stake president's office to be told, your son will not be getting a blessing of healing. And then we thought, is it because we haven't been faithful enough? Is it because, like, why? Like, I don't understand. Like, I don't understand. Like, Heavenly Father knows my child and loves him and wants him. I don't understand. And he said, you know, the church has softened its stance on LGBT issues. They don't take a position on whether it's a choice or they're born that way, and just said really kind, loving, reassuring things. But we still left that office. And I was broken. That was my last hope. And even Michael's, like, if I could not be gay, I wouldn't. Like, he would rather be dead than gay. He tried everything. He. He went to the temple sometimes twice a week as a teenager to not be gay, like, thinking that he would have a grand spiritual experience, that he would see angels, that. That he would have a revelation. I mean, truly, he thought that. We all thought that. And I remember Steve coming out of the closet one day, and he was just distraught, and he said, why are the heavens silent? Why are we not getting an answer? And my thought was, I have lived a life of faith and devotion, and I know I'm not perfect, but I feel like we deserve help. Like, we're pleading to anyone, anything, any. God help us. And the heavens were silent. I remember sitting in the bathroom with Steve. We were talking, and I said, where's our angel? Like Alma the elder prayed in faith for his son, and an angel came, and his whole life was changed, and he became this great prophet who converted thousands and thousands of people and became a great leader. And have we not prayed with enough faith? Have we not. We've. We've obviously missed something. Like we didn't do something right. That there's no angel for our beautiful son, And that a general authority who we only asked for two minutes wouldn't give us two minutes to save a life. That's when I think I. I started to break. And that's when I started to think, too, maybe they got this a little bit wrong, you know? So. We just kind of plugged along and did our thing and continued to read scriptures and all this stuff. So really quick.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] When I think about. Thank you. What a harrowing story. Like, I'm just feeling so intensely, just heartbroken. But this is how theology and policy plays into the lives of its members. If the church teaches that people can be healed with faith, and if Mormon apostles like Boyd K. Packer stand up and say, God would never do this, you know, why would a loving heavenly Father do this?

Donna Showalter [00:10:41] Doesn't fit into the plan. It's not part of the plan.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] Therefore, this is evil, this is sinful, this is wrong. Yeah. And righteousness can cure evil hearts. All that. The math. If you do the theological math, it makes every Bit of sense that you should ask Elder Holland to heal your kid. Yeah, like that there's nothing that's consistent that's. That's reasonable. And so I. It sounds like the heartbreak part of you is just that he didn't give you the courtesy of a direct. Well, he didn't try. Like, if he believes in his power as a disciple, as an apostle, a special witness with special power, you think that he would at least try. Right. With the eye of faith.

Donna Showalter [00:11:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] So there's the fact that he didn't give. That he didn't have the ability to directly respond, but that also that the answer was no, that he could have

Donna Showalter [00:11:39] responded and chose not to.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] And then there's a part of me that's like, well, there's tens of thousands of gay and lesbian Mormons. Apostles can't respond to every inquiry. And so even that, I can kind of go, yeah, in a million, multi million member church, we can't expect those leaders to be able to respond to everyone. What would your response to that be? I mean, I guess on the one hand it's logical. Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:12:05] But I think I'm also a very selfish person, and I don't care about anybody else. I care about my son.

John Dehlin [00:12:11] Yeah, you should.

Donna Showalter [00:12:12] And we live in Provo. Like, we can drive up there. We can, like, we can be sitting in the chair. When you walk in the room, all you have to do is walk in, we're out. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:12:22] And you had that level of faith.

Donna Showalter [00:12:23] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Like in the New Testament, when somebody, like, touches the hem of the Savior's garment and they're healed. Right. You. You had that childlike faith. I mean, it is a very childlike faith to think that apostle can cure your son of his gayness. Right?

Donna Showalter [00:12:36] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:37] But you had it.

Donna Showalter [00:12:38] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] So that's all hard and in some ways understandable. But then let's just say if you were to pull Elder Holland aside, he'd be like, well, that's Elder Packer. But I, you know, I feel I don't believe that.

Donna Showalter [00:12:54] Oh, no, no, no. Because they all believe the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] They all.

Donna Showalter [00:12:57] They. There is unanimity in every decision. And in that, like, they are all of the same mind. Like, they. I really truly thought that.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] And they. And they would say, well, that's naive in private, but in public, it's a huge priority for them to create the appearance of unanimity. So they encourage that mindset. So it's not like, I mean, you came by that belief honestly that of course, Holland would agree with Packer that healings can happen, that they're special witnesses of Christ and that this could be healed because a loving heavenly father would never do this. So.

Donna Showalter [00:13:32] Right, right. Well. And Holland had given some really heartfelt talks, you know, like a broken vessel. Behold thy mother. Like the. These talks that. That he was so human, you know, down to earth. Like, he really, truly understood the human condition. He understood the pain and sorrow and. And. And was there to alleviate that pain, you know. So, yeah, we had total faith in him. Total faith.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Yeah. And so if you were to find out that he didn't believe the same as Elder Packer and that he believed that. And I've had two conversations with him over the years, and I talked to him specifically about reparative therapy. And I know that as early as, let's just say 2010, 2009, 2010, he was skeptical of reparative therapy. He was skeptical of conversion therapy. I talked to him about Dean Byrd and Evergreen, and he was like, yeah, I can't endorse those approaches. So, like, if you were to have found out, or even now, you know, that not only does he agree with other apostles, but that they disagree vehemently and that Elder Holland himself doesn't believe that it's a sin to have those feelings or a sin to be gay such that he wouldn't feel like the Lord would ever heal someone from that, then what would your response be? To know that he didn't. That he didn't perform the blessing because he didn't believe that God. That it was a sin to have those feelings so there's no need to try and cure it.

Donna Showalter [00:15:09] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] Does that make him feel any better or not?

Donna Showalter [00:15:12] It does. And that's one of the things that our stake president tried to get across to us when we met with him, is that the church doesn't take a position anymore. And Elder Holland, he said, you know, a lot of letters that get sent to the apostles don't ever make it to the apostle. They, you know, they get read and a form letter gets sent back out. Whatever he said. But I want you to know that your letter was read personally by Elder Holland. And he sends his love and devotion and all that, but this isn't possible. And I thought he meant, like, I don't know what I thought he meant isn't possible. And at the time, I'm like, but he can be like, you could heal him if you wanted to. So then. So then I went to the thought, well, maybe this is the way he's Supposed to be. I'm like, I'll come back to that, but you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:16:02] But yeah, because, like, why, why is it. Because then it goes to God and then it's like, well, so why would God cure you from cancer or, you know, or a cold, or help you find your keys or mental illness or depression? Like, are we. We're still supposed to pray for those, right? So what's the cate of condition that can be cured versus not? Why would depression and anxiety or cancer or a cold still be worth praying about? But then this not. And how do we know? And what do healings even mean? And are we all just sort of being fed malarkey when we're taught that there is a power of healing?

Donna Showalter [00:16:46] Well, I always thought there was a power of healing power. Physical ailments that, you know, a cold, cancer, whatever.

John Dehlin [00:16:53] Those.

Donna Showalter [00:16:53] Those things can be healed. Mental illness. Especially after, like a broken vessel, he's like, take your medicine. And I was like, but like, what? Oh, and. And blessings of like, comfort and stuff, you know, and. Or like, this is the direction you should go next. Things like that. Like, but. But mental illness, I guess I never really grouped it in there. And. And so I. I never really considered they. I never considered that they couldn't heal, that. That. That isn't something they could heal, you know, heal me of my depression. I never really. That never entered my mind, you know, heal somebody from being gay. I didn't know there were that many gay people. So, you know, I mean, it's just never really anything I thought about. So.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] So did the sick president make you feel better?

Donna Showalter [00:17:39] So much better.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] He did.

Donna Showalter [00:17:41] He was incredibly kind.

John Dehlin [00:17:45] And so the sting of Holland not performing the blessing or responding.

Donna Showalter [00:17:48] We left his office feeling better.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Okay. You know, and that would have been what year?

Donna Showalter [00:17:52] Around approximately 2, probably still 2015. Okay, so it was before the policy.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Oh, before the policy.

Donna Showalter [00:17:58] This is before the policy. So a couple things he said to us that I. That I left his office and wrote down and still think about. And he was so compassionate and so loving and understanding. It's like he really understood how we felt. He said, michael is not lost and he is not broken. Like, you don't need to fix him. He's not broken. And it made me think of things in a new way. Like, I don't know how this fits. And I've been trying to make it fit, and maybe it already fits. Maybe it has fit all along. He's not broken. He doesn't need to be healed. He's not sick. And then I thought, then God made him this way because he certainly didn't choose this. I used to think that being gay was a choice. Like, truly, truly thought that. I was so ignorant. But watching Michael struggle and pray and fast and spend time in the temple and then try to kill himself, he did not choose this. You know, and he says, mom, why would I choose to be ostracized? Why would I choose to be marginalized and rejected and ignored and belittled and bullied? Why would I. Why would anybody choose that? He didn't choose this, therefore God must have made him that way. Or what? Or I don't know. All I know is he's not broken and he doesn't need to be healed. He is perfectly who he's supposed to be. And I thank God every day if there's a God, that I have a gay son. He has. He has been the opening of my mind, my understanding, my heart, my world. He's changed me in fundamental, very profound ways. Coming to this realization that he's who he's supposed to be, and then to watch him absolutely blossom. It is. I am. I feel incredibly privileged to share the same space with him, you know?

John Dehlin [00:20:41] So the church would say, yeah, of course. He's. He's beautiful and he's loved and worthy of love.

Donna Showalter [00:20:46] No, it's not what they said.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] What?

Donna Showalter [00:20:48] That's not what they said.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] What'd they say?

Donna Showalter [00:20:49] They said, doesn't matter how good you think he is, he's not good. He's not good enough. God doesn't really love him because he doesn't want him in his only true

John Dehlin [00:20:59] church or the temple.

Donna Showalter [00:21:01] We're cutting off his. We're cutting off the way for him. He will not get back to heaven. Neither will his kids. We don't want him. And I had to come to grips with the fact that.

John Dehlin [00:21:15] But see, again, the church would frame it that way. They would say, marriage is between a man and a woman. Sexual relations are for a man and a woman after holy matrimony in the temple. So you're framing it wrong. It's not that God doesn't love him. It's not that he's not whole or loved by God. It's just that he needs to either wait until the next life to have

Donna Showalter [00:21:37] love or companionship and.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Or marry a woman. Or marry a woman in this life, and he can have all the kids he wants with the woman. Yeah, like. You've got it wrong. Donna, you're mischaracterizing the church. Honestly, you know, that is the Church's position.

Donna Showalter [00:21:53] That is the church's position. And for a long time, that was my position too. Like, I don't know anything about, like, mixed orientation marriages. That was a new concept to me somewhere along the way.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] But who would think of that?

Donna Showalter [00:22:04] Like, yeah, yeah, like gay people, married women. Well, I mean, gay people getting married at all. Like, that's right. That was. It wasn't a thing. You know what I mean? There's a Defense of Marriage act and all that. And I was 100 behind that. And that the Supreme Court was even considering legalizing gay marriage was baffling to me. Like, I'm 100% man and a woman. Only my opinions in many things, including that, have changed 100%.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:22:33] But that's where I was then. So his options in that case are limited. Isn't right the right word? They're non existent. You've put him between a rock and a hard place. He's either alone for his whole life or he's going to hell when he dies.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] But again, the church would say no. I mean, there's just think of who's the Deseret Book woman? What's her name?

Donna Showalter [00:22:58] Sherry Dew.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] Sure do. Like, there's lots of people in Mormonism that never marry and widows. Or there's women or men who never

Donna Showalter [00:23:07] marry, but they will be married to righteous men in the next world. They will have offspring and populate worlds. They will be a queen and a priestess to their husband. They have an opportunity. They will get that. They just need to wait. Or you know what? I don't know Sherry do personally, but maybe I won't use her name just in general. Someone who's not married and they've that, you know, and that later in life they can still wake up every single morning with the hope that today they meet that guy, you know, or that girl.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] And you're saying that hope can keep you alive, that you might.

Donna Showalter [00:23:44] There's always hope that you might have

John Dehlin [00:23:46] love or children someday.

Donna Showalter [00:23:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's. But Michael can't wake up with hope that he might get married someday. It's not possible. He must be alone or go to hell.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] And as a mother, what's that like to think about those options for your son to either marry a woman who you're not attracted to, she's not, you know, she doesn't feel. She doesn't benefit from a partner who's attracted to her, you're not attracted to her, and you're having kids with. Having sex with someone you're not Attracted to and you don't want to be with. Forget the sex. Just emotionally, socially.

Donna Showalter [00:24:28] I feel like there's fulfillment in any marriage. You know, there's companionship, and especially if your parents, you know, there's that bond. And. And you. You. You have your life in common and your children in common, and. And I think there's something to be said for that. But I don't think that someone who's gay should marry someone who's straight. That's just me, personally. I don't. It doesn't make sense to me.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] And as a mom who knows your son, the idea of living a life without ever having a boyfriend or a partner.

Donna Showalter [00:25:00] No, he's a social creature. He loves being with other people and interacting and feeling connections.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] You can still have friends.

Donna Showalter [00:25:14] No, there's something more. The day I married Steve, I looked across the altar at him and thought, I love him so much. Like. And then 10 years later, I looked at him and I'm like, my love for you across the altar was so small compared to what it is now, you know, and 10 years later, my love for you 10 years ago was so small compared to what it is now. Like, it's just grown and grown and grown to. To deny him that opportunity to. To love another human being in the deepest possible sense of the word, in every single way. To give your soul to them, to give your life, your body, to give everything to them and to. To be united with them. Why would. Why would a God deny.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] Why would a loving heavenly father do that to anyone?

Donna Showalter [00:26:08] It doesn't. You know, and to say that this is a trial that you need to endure for this life, and then in

John Dehlin [00:26:12] the next life, you'll be ch. Listen, Donna, some people have diabetes. Some people have alcoholism.

Donna Showalter [00:26:16] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] Some people have the cross to bear of never have, never knowing love in

Donna Showalter [00:26:21] this life, and then they die, go to the celestial kingdom, get married, and everything's fine, and their body works perfectly, and they don't have diabetes anymore or scoliosis or whatever it is. The. I'm not ruling out that possibility, but it seems unlikely to me that he would die, go to heaven, and be straight, because it's not who he. There was a point where I thought, if I could make him not gay, would I? Well, absolutely, yes. Well, then I started thinking, but wait, there's so much about him that is beautiful and creative and outgoing and kind and gregarious and, like, all. All of these fabulous qualities, and he's gay. And if I took out that part of him. But what else would Go away too. Like, this is who he is, you know, It's. It's who he is. And. And I don't know that God is going to change who he is.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Yeah. How do you change that, that part of him without changing other parts you love? I mean, it seems like that all comes together.

Donna Showalter [00:27:26] Well, they always said, you know, don't smoke cigarettes because you don't want to get addicted, because when you die, even your spirit will still want cigarettes. You know, like, you leave this life with your desires and all that. So if he leaves this life with all his desires and his desire is to be with the man he loves, that he's married and spent his life with, is his desire going to change and all of a sudden he's going to love him like a brother all of a sudden, and not as a partner.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] And why would Heavenly Father cure him then but not cure him now?

Donna Showalter [00:27:52] Like, why would he. We get one life. Why would he say the one life you get, sorry, you have to wait till, like, you're, you know, dead and resurrected. But in this life now, you. This is your cross to bear.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] And also that's. I think that's where some of the suicidality comes from. It's like, if there's no love or companionship or touch or intimacy, and it's not just physical, it's emotional intimacy. If there's none of that in this life, I may as well fast forward.

Donna Showalter [00:28:24] Well, if I'm going to hell anyway, like, why not get there, you know? And especially, like you add, especially if

John Dehlin [00:28:29] life is hell now.

Donna Showalter [00:28:30] Exactly. This is hell. Like, why not get to the next one and just start, you know, And. And my family doesn't love me, and I don't have a place at church or home or school or, you know, I'm a burden to everybody. And. And my life is.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Oh, my mom's sobbing too, you know, for two years worrying about me. Right.

Donna Showalter [00:28:47] Yeah. Yeah. My sobbing came from love. But also, that was super touching when

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Michael lowered his head on your shoulder when you were talking about how much pain you experienced. No kid wants to feel like they're causing their mom to cry for two years straight.

Donna Showalter [00:29:00] No. And. And, you know, I have to say, too, my pain is mine. It's what I'm experiencing is what I'm going through. I can't say that it's his fault

John Dehlin [00:29:12] or his responsibility, but he's gonna naturally feel that way.

Donna Showalter [00:29:15] Of course. Of course.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] So it's an. It's an unnecessary pain and conflict that's being inflicted on everybody.

Donna Showalter [00:29:21] Yeah. Yeah. And I look at it differently too. I used to hear about gay people, like, there's gay people out in the world. And I thought about them. I never thought about their parents. I never thought, there's this 32 year old man in San Francisco dying of AIDS as we speak and he has a mom. Like, I was very linear in my thinking 2D almost like. And when Michael came out, I thought, oh my gosh. Like when I realized that there were other gay kids in Provo, Utah, that means there must be other moms, therefore I'm not alone. But when I started thinking beyond the gay person to their mom, their dad, their brothers and sisters, like, how is this affecting them? And if it's affecting them the way it affected me, there's an awful lot of hurt going on out there and confusion and, you know, just significant sorrow. And so, you know, but there was a time, honestly, when I felt like I'm the only mom with a gay kid in Utah, and I'm certainly the only Mormon mom with a gay kid. And that was part of the. There was shame in that. Like we've done something wrong, that he's gay, you know, and there was all the old ways of thinking that the distant father, overbearing mother, he must have been sexually abused. My sister in law called and said, I think he was probably abused by your home teacher at some point because why else would he could happen?

John Dehlin [00:30:48] Sometimes does happen. He could.

Donna Showalter [00:30:49] Never did, but, you know, he must have been sexually abused. I had somebody at work come to me very sincerely and with great worry saying, I know your son's gay. Was he sexually abused? Because they, they thought that's what turned him gay. And, and they had someone in their life who had been abused. And now they're worried that on top of the trauma of everything else, now that person might be lgbt.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] And what's so crazy and maddening about that is sexual abuse is so rampant in Mormonism and in Utah.

Donna Showalter [00:31:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] That it's so easy to make that correlation. Of course, correlation isn't causation. And there's no science that suggests that being gay lesbian is connected to sexual abuse. No, in fact, it's, it's in some ways contraindicated. But because sexual abuse is so prevalent, you can always. You. It's, it's highly likely that an LGBT kid has been sexually abused because it's highly likely that a kid in Utah has been sexually abused. So people can easily draw those conclusions. Yeah, I'm laughing, but it's tragic, right?

Donna Showalter [00:31:54] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you Know, I, I had those kind of questions, but, no, I think Michael's exactly who he's supposed to be.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] Right.

Donna Showalter [00:32:02] And I think that if there is a heaven, he's still going to be Michael and he's still going to be the same incredible person he is now. You know, so my, my views, I had to formulate views, I guess, at some point when I, like, I had ideas and assumptions about what it meant to be gay and who gay people were and what their agenda was and, you know, and had to really face those and, and rethink, you know, really, really rethink a lot of things when. When it was my son who's gay.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] So we're getting a lot of beautiful, touching, and even some heartbreaking comments. I'll just read a couple. Chris writes, I wish I'd had a mom like you.

Donna Showalter [00:32:51] Thank you. I wish you had, too. And if you could be mine, I would take you.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] Thank you. Chris. Ann writes, yes, he is exactly who he's supposed to be. Love that. Why do we try to change these amazing people? And I'll just say, or pathologize these amazing people, right?

Donna Showalter [00:33:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Elisa writes, thank you, Donna, for your courage to be honest and vulnerable. Sharing your story helps us in ours. Love you, my friend. That's Elisa Jane Taylor Hancock. I'm seeing a lot of precious.

Donna Showalter [00:33:27] Oh, how I love you, Elisa. I love you.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] I'm seeing a lot of your friends joining in and encircle people and others. And then, of course, we get this comment, which is Winfield writes, for any loving parents out there still in the church, this discussion right now should be a shelf breaker. And that's a great segue into the fact that this wasn't a shellbreaker, that by 2016, 2017, 2018, you like, not only move from Relief Society President, you become Stake Young Women's President, and you serve continually and your faith remains strong to a point.

Stake Young Women's President During Faith Crisis

Donna Showalter [00:34:10] Yes, it did. Till it didn't.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] So talk about how your faith evolved from, from the November policy till January of this year.

Donna Showalter [00:34:21] Well, okay, so I have to. There's more to it than just this, I think. My therapist, who is an angel, gave me an analogy that really helped. She said, imagine that you've built your house, or your house of faith, whatever, on what was, unbeknownst to you, a fault line. And you built this house, and it's big and it's beautiful and you love it, and it's your home and you invite people there. And then one day that ground starts to shift and you feel an earthquake and you didn't know there was a fault. And your house actually falls down and crumbles. And so as my house of faith, I think that my earthquake was Michael coming out. And no, it wasn't even Michael coming out. It was the policy. It was a policy because I think eventually would have found a way to make him fit somehow, whatever, or, you know, but the policy was the earthquake. For me, that made me start questioning if at some point, anyway, I said, if they got this wrong, what else did they get wrong? So in 1978, nine years old, living in Florida, the radio is on in my kitchen, and I hear President Kimball's voice over the radio, which was like, wow, you know, And I recognize his voice even at 9, saying that blacks could have the priesthood. And I remember in our house, anyway, we were, like, happy. My mom was like, wow, this is huge. Like, this is a prophecy. It's, you know, it's this huge, amazing thing. And I never thought. Thought past, now the blacks can have the priesthood. I never thought what happened before when they couldn't have the priesthood. How many people were kept out of heaven? How many people weren't allowed to go to the temple and be sealed to their families? How many men weren't allowed to have the priest. I never thought about that. All I could think about was, now the blacks have the priesthood. Good. And so now I can't remember where I was going with that.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Well, it's just kind of interesting that these big, huge, dramatic church altering shifts happen.

Donna Showalter [00:36:39] Oh, the earthquake. Okay, so the policy changed with my earthquake.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] Yeah.

Donna Showalter [00:36:43] And I started thinking, if they got this wrong, what else did they get wrong? And even from there, didn't really delve into it too much more. It was just a question. What else did they get wrong? And then my husband was reading Rough Stone Rolling and he stopped reading it. He goes, this is too heavy. It's too much. I can't. And I was. And I'm like, I will take your word for it. So I won't read Rough Stone only. And then a couple years later, he read it, he started reading it again, and he finished it and he put it down when he was done, and he said, you need to read this book. And I was like, I. I don't think I can. Like, I don't know what's in there. But if it. But if it was hard for you and you're so much more faithful than I am, I don't think I can. I don't. It's too scary. So I just never did. It went on Our shelf. And I never thought about it again, but what else do they have wrong? So, okay, so I'm really society president. I get released and they give me a break by putting me in primary. Right. You still need to have a calling, but at least it's not super heavy. The next one won't be as super heavy duty. You get a, you know, and, and it's. And, and I was told this, like this is a holding place for you for what's next. Like we're just like pulling you over to the side for a sec, but you know, we have bigger plans, whatever. And I'm like, whatever, I'm happy. But so I'm teaching church history to these kids and this is 2017. Yeah, 2017 church history. And I come across this lesson and oh, okay. I come across this lesson and what is her name? Mary Elizabeth Rollins. 12 year old girl gets given a copy of the Book of Mormon, reads it overnight. It's such a miraculous, beautiful story. When Joseph Smith comes to town, he makes a gift of that book to her. And this is the story that we tell in primary. Like it's faith promoting and the book is true. And even this 12 year old recognized that it's the word of God and Joseph Smith is a prophet and all this stuff. And I'm all on board still, like, I'm reading the story to them like, look at this. You know, a couple lessons later, Mary Elizabeth Rollins name comes up again. And I'm like, is this the same person? And I go back and I read that and I go to Steve and I'm like, could, what's the chances that there could be two Mary Elizabeth Rollins? He's like, zero. And I'm like, I. So I'm like, I know, but how could it, how could that be? Anyway, there. Although there was nothing about plural marriage in the church history manual that I was teaching, somehow it came to light or came to my attention that she married Joseph Smith. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. She's 12. And then, so yeah, it was, it was years later when she married him, but still, like, why would he marry her? And, and he had other wives. Like I had heard that Joseph Smith had wives, but they were like spiritual wives. Like not married to him in the regular sense, but sealed to him because he was like getting his gang together for the next life, I guess, you know, like plural marriage in the heavens. And so that's why he had these wives that were only sealed to him, nothing else. Like we Go to the temple. We do the ceremony. You go home to your house. I go home to my house. Great. That's what I thought. So to hear that this girl is married to Joseph Smith. And I'm like. And then all the. All the church videos are running through my head, and all the movies that you see in the theater about Joseph Smith and Emma and all. They're all running through my head, and I'm like, but there were no plural wives in any of those. Like, they're. It's never mentioned. And I didn't miss church growing up. I did not miss church. Like, if I was deathly ill, I would stay home. But. So I'm like, I don't. I didn't get taught this at church. And I'm laying in bed one night as I'm realizing this, and I lean over to Steve, and I'm like, okay, Steve, listen, you were born and raised. Well, you were raised in Oregon, and I was raised in Texas, right? So. And we were both raised in the church. Were you ever taught this? And he's like, no, I wasn't. And I'm like, neither was I. And I'm like, so it's not just that I missed it or. Or. Or it wasn't being taught in Texas, but it was being taught in Oregon. He wasn't taught it either. And I'm like, how. How did I miss this? This is big. Like, how did I miss something so important and so big? I'm like, what else did I miss? And it's been. When I say I'm always striving to be better and, like, prove myself, I'm really good at Book of Mormon, everything, and, like, the history and. And what happened next and the meanings and, you know, all that. You know, I read the Book of Mormon my whole adult life over and over and over again. And same with the New Testament. Not the Old Testament so much, but I felt like, you know what? It's the Old Testament, and God's gonna be okay with me not knowing everything in there. And so I only read the Book, the Old Testament a few times, but I'd read the Doctrine of Covenants many times without actually looking deeper into the history. Like, I took their word for it, you know, like, it's the church. It's the one true church. They're not gonna lie to me. That never entered my mind. They're not gonna lie. They're not gonna hold anything back. They're not gonna keep anything from me. And I didn't learn this. So again, it goes back on me. If I didn't learn this, it's my own fault. And I'm like, well, if I don't, if I didn't know this, there's, and I already feel kind of guilty because I'm like, I don't know church history like I should. I feel like there's this hole in my spiritual education. Like, I really need to know more about church history and I'm teaching it to the primary kids, but I'm learning stuff from the manuals too. And, and I'm like, I should know more about this. And so I started looking into it and I started. And that's when I started having conversations with Steve about Joseph Smith isn't what I thought he was like, I know there's a bigger picture and I just need to see all of it and I will, and it will all make sense to me. But there are some things about Joseph Smith and church history that I'm having a little trouble with. And he just said, you need to read Rough Stone Rolling. And I was like, I can't. Like, I, I don't, I'm too scared. I don't want to, I want to be faithful. And I know it's not like an anti Mormon book at all. And, and I really admire Richard Bushman because he is in such a position. I, I, I acknowledge that and recognize that. But I was at a point where I'm like, I'd heard about people who

John Dehlin [00:43:19] read it and left the church tens of thousands.

Donna Showalter [00:43:23] And I'm like, I'm not reading that. That's like, it was sold at Desert Books. So I can't put the pieces together, but I'm not reading that. And so, so I was still blissfully, blissfully ignorant for a long time. But you know, these, these questions started coming up and I started asking more questions and then they called me to be the Stake Young Women's President. And I will tell you the conversation I had with my stake president. He called me on the phone and he said, and Steve at the time was on the High Council and he said, I've been talking with your husband and I want to call you to be the Young Women's President. But he wasn't like extending the calling. It was like feeling me out, you know, like. And so it was like the pre interview and he's like, But Steve expressed that you have some concerns with Joseph Smith in church history. And I was livid that Steve would tell anybody because this was a private thing. And there was, for me, I felt a lot of shame that I would even be questioning. And, and so I'm like, I can't believe you told him. Like, I don't want anybody to think that I'm not faithful. And I feel like I'm faithful. I just have questions and that I don't understand, but I'm sure I will at some point anyway. So I'm like, no, no, like President. Like, first of all, I don't want to be the Stake Young Women's President, but it's not because of church history stuff. It's just. But I, you know, I just went back to, you know what? I know the Book of Mormon is true and our whole religion is based on that. And if the Book of Mormon is true, it means that Joseph Smith was a prophet and it means that everything he said happened, happened just the way he said it happened. And so I'm struggling, but it's just because I haven't got things figured out yet, not because there's a problem anywhere. And so at some point he did extend the calling and then I chose my counselors and became the Stake Young Women's President. But it was interesting because when he, when he did extend the calling formally, he said, oh gosh, will you remind me that that's what we're talking about? Okay. Me being called as Stake Young, as President.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Sure.

Donna Showalter [00:45:27] And why he called me because I have to go back a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:45:30] When Michael came out and we told family, I had started wearing a bracelet that was like, it was just like one of those embroidered things you get at like a, a festival in summer. Right. But it was rainbow. It was all the colors of the rainbow. A family member brought it to Steve's attention that I'm wearing a rainbow bracelet. And did I understand what that meant and that, that I was making a very bold statement that was incorrect by wearing a rainbow bracelet. And when we, when Steve went and told these, this family member about Michael, cuz Michael's like, you can tell him, it's fine. He went to tell them. And this family member said some things that said. And he still lives in your house. He's like, well, yeah, you let his friends come over. Well, of course we do. Does your Stake President know? And she's like, I don't know. And he says, she said, well, you need to call him. You need to make sure that he knows that your son is gay and you're letting him live at your house. And then she also said things like if you, like, do you guys have your temple recommends still? And she's like, yeah, we do. And that's when she said, does your stake president know? Because in her mind, the fact that we hadn't kicked Michael out because he's gay and we were letting his friends come over, meant that we were not worthy of a temple recommend. And just the fact that he was gay, not that he'd acted on it or anything, but that he identifies as gay made us unworthy of a temple recommend. We should have kicked him out. And she said, well, you'll never have any big callings after this. We just. Steve's like, what? Anyway, so he came home, told me these things. He was absolutely okay. So fast forward. The stake president has called me to be the Young Women's President. And I'm wearing my bracelet because it's tied on, and it is super glued on. I can't get it off unless I cut it off. But I'm like, listen, you know that Michael's gay, and I, like. It has been expressed to me by a family member that this bracelet is too bold a statement. It's inappropriate. I shouldn't be wearing it, and it makes me, like, less worthy. And I said, if you want me to, I will take the bracelet off. And he said, donna, not only do I not want you to take the bracelet off, if I had a bracelet like that, I would wear it. And I was like, well, okay. You know, And I. And I assured him in that meeting, I said, I promise I will never use this as, like, a soapbox. And I'm not gonna, like. I'm not pushing an agenda. This is just my way of telling my son that I love him and to tell other people, you're safe with me. And he said. He said that that was one of the main reasons that I was being called to be the stake yeoman's president is because I had a gay son. And. And I had shown so much love for him and others that he said, there are LGBT youth in our stake, and they are feeling lost and forgotten, and. And their leaders and parents need to learn how to love them. And I. And. And he said, that's why I want you to be the stake Young Women's President, because you can teach them how to love their kids. And I thought, that's a really tall order, but I do know how to love my kid. And if I can teach other people, I don't know how to teach love, but if there's any way I can do that, I absolutely will. So in spite of my issues with Joseph Smith that were kind of small at the time, I. I was willing to take this calling because I'm like, I, I can love, that I can do. And I know these kids. I've grown up with them, I love them. And, and to spend time with them and to go to camp with them and. And I just. I'm like, yeah, I'll do it, of course, you know, but. But by then there were already doubts that made it really hard for me to reconcile some things. And so I kept the calling and, and did it for a long time. And then. But during that time, I was really starting to struggle with some church history stuff.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] And I mean that's, that's an intense calling. Stake Young Women's President is not just like, sit back and chill out. I mean there's like, it's full time,

Donna Showalter [00:50:15] it's almost full time.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] There's camp there. I mean, you know what, there's trek. I mean, what are all the different things that.

Donna Showalter [00:50:21] There's girls camp, there's trek every four years. There's what's it called?

John Dehlin [00:50:28] Youth conferences, Conferences, Temple stuff.

Donna Showalter [00:50:30] Oh, there's temple. Yeah, there, there's. And then our stake also did. We tried to like really pare it down and like get to the like the fundamentals, the essential things that like need to happen. And we whittled it down to eight activities a year. So not only are we planning girls camp and, and youth conferences and treks and we've. And, and multi stake dances, then we've got firesides and I mean there's just so, so much that goes into this. You know, it's not. There's like. There's something going on all the time and as soon as you finish the. This activity or, or project or whatever, you're right onto the next. There's never a moment when you're like, cool, we're done. We're just. It's just constant. There's always stuff going on and word conferences and there's where there's 11 or 12 wards in our. In our stake. That's 11 or 12 weeks that I'm in somebody else's ward for all three meetings. And in mine for all three meetings. If, if our schedules, you know, and, and leading the discussion in Yeong Min that day, that combined with the young men and the stake president is also in that meeting. And we take turns talking to the youth and, and then going to their. That ward's ward council and then meeting with that ward's Young Women's presidency before ward conference. There's just. There's. There's always, always something. It's It's. It's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:51:51] So on the one hand, I'm thinking that's a really heavy burden to be carrying. As much as you love church service, that's a lot to be carrying when you're going through a faith crisis.

Donna Showalter [00:52:05] At that point, I was feeling. I never felt really overwhelmed in my other callings. Even as Relief Society president, I always felt like, you know, this is doable. But as a stake. Yeah. Women's president, I felt incredibly overwhelmed, and I felt the weight of my calling and the expectation. But while I'm going through a faith crisis, it. It really. It really took a toll on me, like, mentally and spiritually. I got to a point where I. I felt I cannot do this. Like, I'm working full time. I'm. I'm volunteering at Encircle for a good portion of my time, and I've got my calling, and. And something has to give. I cannot do what. I can't continue to do what I'm doing. And at that point, given everything that I'd been finding out about church history and other things and the weight of the calling and wanting to outwardly express my love for Michael and his friends, and I felt like, well, and I have my job, and I can't just quit my job. So of those three big things, the. The only thing that I feel like I have. I have to let go of something. It's going to have to be this calling. And so I went to my stake president and asked. It was after. It was a little. I was in that position for a little over a year and went to my stake president and asked to be released and felt like a complete and utter failure. Like, they put a lot of trust in me. They asked me to do this thing. I thought I could do it, and it turns out I couldn't do it. I can't do it. And to go and ask to be released, I've never turned down a calling, and I've never asked to be released. I just do what you ask me to do until you ask me to do something else. But I asked to be released, and it took a lot of guts and a lot of thinking and fasting and prayer and, like, all of that, to even get up the courage to recognize that that's what needed to happen, and then to get up the courage to go and say the words, I need to be released was really hard. And then it was four to six months after that when I was actually released. So that last four to six months was torture. Like, absolute torture. So why and because I felt like I'm doing this thing and I'm helping these kids, I think, I hope, and. But I'm falling apart. And I have to go to ward conferences and, like, put on the show and get up in front of these combined meetings and pretend that everything's fine. And I'm learning that the Book of Mormon might not be true, But that alone was enough. But then to have to go to ward conferences and tell these youth that the Book of Mormon's true. There was one Sunday. This. This is what did it for me. Like, this was the beginning of, like, my actual. Like, I don't know if I can do this. I was in a word conference, and the, The. The subject was going to be something about the Book of Mormon, how it strengthens you and all this. And, and the stake president told me that he was going to be using a video that he'd seen in seminary as a youth about the Book of Mormon and how it changed his life and the way he viewed everything, and it made him want to go on a mission, and it just like, changed the course of his life and he became, you know, a better person and all this. And now he's stake president. I'm struggling to know if it's even true. So. So I go to this meeting. It's a. It's a room full of youth with their leaders, and it's. It's classic group think. A person in authority, the authority in our stake, standing in front of the room saying, this book is true. I know it's true. All the leaders in this room know it's true. You know it's true, or you will know it's true, or you can or you should or whatever, and you do whatever it takes to know that it's true. And the youth sitting there looking at these people that they admire, who serve them and love them, telling them that this book is true. True. I mean, I remember being in those meetings as a youth, and I was like, yes, it's true. Like, I might not understand it yet, but it. I know that it. It's true because they say it's true. And eventually I'll have that spiritual awakening or that experience that will. That will be the undeniable answer to the question, is it true? So the bit I get up and I'm already wondering if the. If the Book Mormon is true. So I had my comments ready and. And I nowhere in my comments said, the Book of Mormon is true. I got up and said, you know, I used to look up to my young Women's leaders. And whatever they told me, I believed them. And, and my bishop and my release study president and my parents, I believed them because they said it was true. And I said, here's the thing. It doesn't matter how much you admire me or love me, I cannot be the one that gives you a testimony. You, you. You can't live your life based on what I say. You can't live your life based on my knowledge or not, or, you know, my belief that the Book of Mormon is true. You have to go and read it and find out for yourself. And I left it at that. Like, I'm not saying you're going to find out it's true, or, you know, I just said, you have to find out for yourself. You cannot take my word for it. And I sat down, the bishop got up and played his video, and I was absolutely appalled. I watched that video in seminary, and the videography of it, beautiful, In a beautiful setting. The lighting was perfect, the people are perfect, beautiful clothes on, and the music, the software, spiritually, you know, the soft spiritual music cues at just the right moment. And it's all meant to. To lead you in this one way of thinking. And it was these kids at a campfire, and there's three of them. Two of them are members of the church, the other is not. The one who's not says, how do you know your church is true? Like, in my church, we believe things are true, but we don't know they're true. How do you know? And the one kid who doesn't really know, like, looks at the one, the other one, and he says, well, like, you just feel it. You feel that it's true. And then. And it is. And he's like, huh? Anyway, so the other kid goes home and he has his. Like, how come I don't know it's true? You know, what do I need to do? So he goes and talks to his dad, and this is what he says. Dad, how did you know that the Book of Mormon was true? And his dad says, well, actually, his dad never quite answers the question, but he. At some point in the video, one of the characters says, if you feel that it's. If it. Here's how I said, if you. If it feels good, it's true. If it feels good to you, it's true. And I was like, what the. What What? And I wrote it down. I was like. Got my phone really fast. Like, I. And I typed it word for word what he said on the screen. And then I read it and I'M like, oh my gosh. What they're telling these kids is all you have to do is get a feeling. And based on a feeling and nothing else, you will know that this book is true. That the, that the people that it's written about, written about, lived and breathed and had a life and had babies and like they lived a life. This book is true and real and historically correct. And I truly believed at one point that that book was historically factual. And they're saying that's all you need to know, that's all you need. That's all the proof you need, is that it feels good and it's true. And I was like, oh my, I can't do this anymore. I, I can't do this anymore. And that's like shortly after that is when I asked to be released because I'm like, I don't even, I don't know. It's true. I can't testify to anybody else that it's true. Shape Society Love

John Dehlin [01:00:57] thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mind mindygledhill.com.

Donna Showalter [01:01:48] Cups full Candy coated Poison in the

John Dehlin [01:01:55] sky

Donna Showalter [01:01:58] Teacups full of candy Co.

Part 4 of 5 · Ep. 1153

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Shapes.

Donna Showalter [00:00:05] Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Donna Showalter [00:01:05] I'm really struggling with my testimony at this point. Like,

John Dehlin [00:01:09] this is around what month this was? December, late last year? Yeah, December.

Donna Showalter [00:01:18] So November, December, January.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] Eight or nine months ago.

Donna Showalter [00:01:22] Yeah. So when they finally released me from. From being the Stake Young Men's President, the day I got released, my bishop comes to me with his little binder and says, and by the way, our bishop is. Is an incredibly kind, loving, honest man. And we've been friends with their family. Our kids grew up together. We've been friends with them. And like, true friends. Like, right. Not just church friends, but true friends with. For them, with them since we moved in. So. But he's coming to me in the capacity of bishop, and he says, you know, I have a calling for you. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, hold on. Like, don't I even get a day to breathe? Like, you already have a new calling for me. I just got released and you're, you know, and. And he told me what the calling was, and I said, bishop, we need to talk. And so we paced the halls together while our spouses waited in the foyer. But we just paced the halls in the. In the Stake center. And I. And I told him, without really telling him, I am really struggling right now. Like, really, really struggling. And this is incredibly painful, but I. I think I'm going to have to say no. And I'd never said no to a calling, but I'm saying no to a calling. And I said, I through many, many tears. I don't know that I can stand in front of these people that you want me to teach and testify that this is true. Because I don't know. And that was really hard for me to say and to acknowledge that I no longer know what I thought I knew my whole life. The basis of everything I've done, the person that I am, the direction of my life, everything, everything has been based on the truthfulness, the truth claims of my church. And I'm at a place where I don't feel comfortable telling someone else that it's true if it might not be true. So I said, no. And he said, well, I'll give you time to think about it. And I said, bishop, I can't accept this calling. I appreciate your faith in me, but I can't right now. I'm just not in a place where I can do that anyway. So fast forward two weeks. I go to sacrament meeting. The bishop comes up to me as the meeting is starting, like, it's going to start in one minute. And. And he says, donna, we're going to sustain you today. And I'm like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know, like, I said, no. And he. Now he's saying, we're going to sustain you today. Are you. You're okay with that? And I'm like, and. And by this. So my husband is standing, is sitting beside me, and the bishop's wife has walked over, and she's standing next to him at this point. And I had to say to him in sacrament meeting, out loud in front of his wife, in front of my husband, bishop, I. I can't take this calling. And I cry. I. I started to cry and just so much shame. And I felt very weak. And. I'm a disappointment. I'm disappointed. I've said no. And the bishop's wife, he said, okay, and he went up to the stand, and his. And his wife stayed behind. And she was sitting on the bench in front of me, and she turned around and. And she could see me, like, I'm shaking and my palms are sweaty, and I'm starting to, like, work up into a really good cry. And she says, donna, no, don't go there. Don't you feel ashamed at having to say no? If that's how you feel, that's okay. And then she started talking about something else, and that, like, I stopped crying, and I still felt really, really bad. But at the same time, I feel like I. I was raised to have integrity, and my integrity does not allow me to stand in front of a group of people and perpetuate this. I can't do that. So I. By that time, I was. Because I. As the Stake Young Woman's President, I wasn't in my ward very often anyway. I was doing ward conferences and meeting with other people. And so people were used to not seeing me. So when they did see me at church, they'd say, you're in our ward today. We're so happy, you know, And I'm like, yay, I'm here. And it was sometimes a Major accomplishment to get myself there. And, and for the first time in my life, there were times when I left after sacrament meeting and went home because I could not handle one more hour. And when they changed it to two hour church, I thought, you know, I'm going to start going in January and I'm going to. And my commitment to myself is I'm going to go to 2. I can handle two hours a week. I'm going to go to church every single week, and I'm not going to skip any meetings. And that lasted for about three weeks before I started missing it. But anyway, so I'm going through this major faith crisis. Major, major. And it's shattering all my views and beliefs and, and what I thought I knew. And, and at the same time, I was transitioning because Stephanie, who started in circle, came to me at some point and I'd been volunteering since the very be was a devoted volunteer. And, and, and I showed up because I wanted to show Michael that I love him. And I wanted to continue to show him that I love him. But I started to know the other kids there and, and I saw in them what I saw in Michael. And every stereotype that I had been taught was absolutely shattered. These, they, they. They're human beings just like me. I didn't know, like, I thought they had horns, you know what I mean? Like, some. I had othered them so much that to be faced with real life people who are just living their life like I am was a revelation to me. And I absolutely fell in love with the youth at Encircle. And the craziest thing is that I would. I'm a landscape designer. And so that's how I volunteered at Encircle. I'm like, I'll take care of the yard. And so I'd be mowing the yard and one of the youth would come and they would see me from the parking lot and they would yell my name, Donna. And I would stop the mower and I would go over to them even though I'm like sweaty and gross. And we would talk for a minute and then they would hug me really big and tight. And then they'd go in and then, and then I'd start mowing again. It's a small lawn and it took me like two hours to mow lawn because people kept stopping me or I would see someone and I'm like, oh, I recognize you. And I'm like, I need to, I need to be more out there and recognize, like when I see someone. There was a girl that I went to school with. And when anyone would walk in the room, didn't matter who it was, she would say their name in such a way that it sounded like a party was about to start. And now they were here, so it could. So when she saw me, she's like, Donna. And it made me feel so good. And I wanted to recognize people and make them feel that they are as valuable as they actually are. But they may not recognize. So when I would see them to make up a name, Andy. Andy. And I would run to them and hug them and we would talk for a second, you know, I, I fell in love with these kids and they knew me as Michael's mom. And that gave me credibility, I guess. You know, you're Michael's mom, so you must be okay, you know, and the fact that you're here, that's awesome. And, and I started really looking forward to my time there. My. The way, the way my mind works is Christmas to Christmas, right? Like that's how my year progresses. Christmas to Christmas and Sunday to Sunday. When can we go to next? You know, how many days until Sunday? And I would count down and be excited that it shifted to Wednesdays because that's when I went to Encircle. Wednesday is my day and my whole world revolves around Wednesday. How many more days until I can go back to Encircle? And just really loved, loved being there, loved the feeling there, loved the kids. The fact that other adults showed up and, and without being paid, like they're there because they want to be there, they're volunteering their time. It means that there are other people who recognize the goodness of these people in the same way that I recognize the goodness. And for me there was never a thought that I'm going to come in here and like save all these people, you know, or even be an ally. Like I didn't want any sort of label. I. All I want to do is show up and be in the same space as you. Like the fact that they, that these youth allowed me to share their space and not just share their space, but they made me feel like I was loved and I'm accepted and, and valuable and needed and wanted. It felt so good. So my husband and I, when the new City center temple was, was built and we, we volunteered in the temple. So we were in the baptistry every Saturday morning from 5:30 to 10. It's really hard to get up on a Saturday morning at 5:30. Well, actually we had to get up earlier because I had to like get ready. But anyway, this is all during this transition time. And. And I'm. I'm starting to realize that, like, youth suicides, that's coming to the forefront. Like Michael said, one of his friends took his own life, and that was. I can't even speak about that. It's too hard. And there were other youth suicides, and there were people that were truly, truly hurting. And it dawned on me one day, like, my time is so limited. I'm, like, we had to find a time where Steve and I could both be in the temple at the same time. That was hard enough, but then to, like, I'm. I'm either volunteering or working all week long. Saturday is my day to do everything. Laundry, our yard, grocery shopping, everything. And we were going to cut half the, like, a chunk of that. That day away so that we could be in the temple. And I was so happy to do that and loved. My. Loved being there. But I was driving out of Encirc. I was driving out from under the temple one day, got up to the. So. So the Encircle house in Provo is right across the street from the temple. So when you drive out of the parking garage, the house. The Encircle house is right there. And I. And I looked up and I saw the house, and I'm like, there are people, like, I'm serving in the temple, basically, people who are dead. And the youth who come, it's great. Like, I'm there. I'm helping them, you know, strengthening their testimonies, and they're serving, and it's a wonderful thing. But there are. There are kids across the street who are killing themselves. Okay? No one at Encircle has ever taken their life. But. But there are youth who are hurting, and they're hurting right now. Like, they didn't live 200 years ago. They're hurting now. And. And I'm like, why am I in the temple serving people who are dead when there are people who are hurting right across the street right now? And I. I'm like, I. I'm not. I'm not going to serve in the temple anymore. And that was a hard decision to make because I'm like, you know, this is another sign of my devotion and my loyalty and my faith and. And my beliefs, But I'm like, I need to. I'm going to serve at Encircle instead. So. So I increased my volunteer time at Encircle and. And anything that there was a volunteer needed, I was there. Like, it doesn't matter what it is, where it is, when it is, I will Be there. Anyway, so I got to know Stephanie and just so, so admire her on many levels. And got to know Jacob, the chief operating. Operating officer.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] And this is Stephanie Sorensen Larsen and Jacob Dunford.

Donna Showalter [00:14:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] Just for the listeners.

Donna Showalter [00:14:15] Yeah, Jacob.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] Shout out to them. We love them.

Donna Showalter [00:14:20] I wish that everyone could know Jacob. There's something so special about him. He is truly, truly one in a. No, he's one in a billion. So when I was volunteering at Encircle and Jacob would walk in the door, he was like a celebrity to me. And I'm like, jake, I'm in the same room with Jacob. So. And I felt that way with Stephanie, too. Like, these are great, grand people, and I'm so grateful I get to share space with them. And so Jacob comes in, and I'm like, oh, Jacob. You know, and if Jacob. I didn't want to be presumptuous and, like, go and hug him, but if he came and hugged me and recognized, hey, Donna, how are you? You know, I felt so special. Like, super special. And so, like, anytime I could be around Jacob and Stephanie, I'm like, I'm there. Anyway, so at some point, Stephanie's like, I wish you could work for Encircle. And I was like, me too. Not in a actual. Like, that couldn't work, but it would be great, like, if I. If they were like, I clone myself so that I could be at my BYU job and here, you know, But I work at byu, and it's the best job I've ever had in my life, hands down. Like, every single day was, like, getting up to go play with my friends. Like, I had friends. And I adored my students. Like, oh, so, so, so much. I loved them. I loved the people I worked with. And I got to work outside and.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] And.

Donna Showalter [00:15:53] And. And use my skills and. And design things and make things beautiful. And it was instant gratification because, like, when I. You know, when the lawn is mowed, you can stand back and say, I did that, and look how good it looks, you know, And. And I prided myself in my little area of campus looking perfect. Like, I truly. As far as landscaping goes, I feel like my area in campus was as perfect as a landscape can be. Like, weeds were offensive. Like, even teeny little ones, like, they never got big. We got them when they were teeny. Anyway, I loved my job. But last July at Love Loud, Stephanie said, donna, if this. If everything goes well, like, we would really like to bring you on to do, like, family outreach or something. We're not sure it's you know, we. We don't. We don't know what we want you to do, but we want you. And I'm like, you want me? Like, oh, my gosh. And. And. But at the same time, like, just the. Just the fact that you want me means so, so much to me. I'm never leaving byu. But just the fact that you want me. Holy cow. Anyway, so she comes back to me in October, November, and she's like, listen, we have a board meeting. I'm 80 chance there's an I'm 80 sure that they will let us hire you. And. And I'm like, oh, like, as much as I would love that, I don't know how to leave byu. Like, but it came to a point where I'm like, I have to actually think about this. Like, this might be a possibility where I actually have to make a choice. And then she came back to me at the beginning of December and said, and the beginning of December at byu, a student took their own life in the building next to me.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] The Tanner building, right?

Donna Showalter [00:17:45] Yeah. My students and I, we heard the sirens. We didn't know what happened, but we knew something was going on. And the feeling when we found out what happened, I held it. The possibility that it was an accident. I held onto that for as long as I possibly could. And then when I realized it wasn't, it was so devastating, especially because I had. I was close to people, dear friends at byu, who were really struggling to want to be alive. And for them to hear about this, it was. It shook them. It really shook them, and I was really worried about them. And. Anyway, but Stephanie came to me again and said, we want to offer you this job. And I thought, I love my students so, so much. And leaving them really broke my heart. They know. They know I love them. But I felt like. For the youth I know who have passed away, and for that person in the Tanner building who felt so hopeless and so much pain, I couldn't. It was too much, too much to bear. And I thought, it's just me, little me. But if there's something I can do to help someone feel that there's hope, that there's a future where they're going to be happy and thrive. I have to do that. I have to do that. And I really weighed that because I love my students so much. The thing I think that was a tipping point for me that said, that made me say yes to this position at Encircle was these are BYU students, and they're already the cream of the crop, right? They're like the. They are the most phenomenal human beings. They're smart, they're wise, they're. They're filled with faith and devotion, and they're going to be okay. They're going to be okay. And they're adults, you know, they're going to be okay. Like, I'm not going to. I'm not. I won't be the determining factor in how successful they are. Right. But if. If there's a chance that I might be the determining factor in some small way of these kids staying alive, that's what I feel like I need to do. So I gave my two weeks notice, and it was horrific. And beginning of January started full time within circle. And that transition was really, really hard because I was really missing my students. I was missing that community. I was missing being outside and doing like that was my passion. And it was hard to leave that. But to sit around the table with Jacob and Stephanie and some other, like, Some of the world's very, very, very best people, like they are my humans, to be able to sit with them and to make decisions and to go out and do Encircle, I. It was really good. I'm so, so happy. And I'm happier every single day.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] And someday, when they're ready, I'd love to have Stephanie and even Jacob come on Mormon stories and tell their story. But I understand that they walk a fine line in the community. Their. Their motto is no sides, only love.

Donna Showalter [00:22:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] And I can only imagine that they would, you know, want to always make sure that anything they do does nothing to. To harm or compromise the reputation of Encircle.

Donna Showalter [00:22:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] So we'll send out their love and that open invitation, and we're glad you can come. Now, I. There's this quote that I shared with a friend the other day that I've repeated on Mormon stories a few times here and there. It's from Upton Sinclair when he's talking about the executives of the meatpacking plants and industry back in the early 1900s, and I think about tobacco executives as well, which. It's this quote that says it's impossible to get a man to see a point of view when his livelihood depends on not seeing it.

Donna Showalter [00:22:50] Oh, yes.

Encountering the Historical and Doctrinal Issues

John Dehlin [00:22:51] And I think about the fact that you were a church employee, Right?

Donna Showalter [00:22:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] And you left the church's employ in January and went to work for Encircle. And. And that's kind of when I first heard from you. Was there any. Was. Was, you know, was leaving BYU something that allowed you to really fully contemplate Leaving the church. Had you already decided to leave the church? How did that work at that point? Timing at that.

Donna Showalter [00:23:21] While I was still at encirc. Sorry. While I was still at byu, I was having serious doubts that I absolutely kept to myself. Like, I would never, ever speak of them to anyone, because I would never want anyone's faith to be shaken the way mine was. Like, live your life. Be happy. So I did not leave BYU because of my faith crisis. They happened kind of around the same time, but I. I didn't leave because of that. So when I left in c. When I left byu, I was. I was at a friend's house who had a picture of two women on her wall. And I said, who are those women? And she said, these are wives of Joseph Smith. And I was like, what? Like, I. And this and this other lady, but that. Neither one of those. So she's like, oh, Donna. She's like, he had, like, 32 wives or something, and some of them were even married to other men at the time. And I was like, what? And she. She pulled a book out of her bookshelf and said it was In Sacred Loneliness, which I still haven't read, but I will. But it was the. The journals of all the wives of Joseph Smith, and. And I was like, I had no idea. And so I'm falling down the rabbit hole even further. And she gave me another book, and then she told me her story and how they lost her family, lost their faith, and what that was like for them. And so she gave me the CES letter, and I wasn't ready for it, but I don't know if anybody can be ready for that. Like, to go from ultra orthodox to a few doubts and questions to the CES letter. It was horrific. So I took it home and read it, and before I'd even finished the first chapter, and when I say I read it, I had the. The. Like, the paperback, right? And then I found. At the back, because I'm like, he's got these little numbers, but where are the footnotes? Like, where can I find that? And then I found. In the back, oh, it's all online. So as soon as I would see a reference point, I would go online and look up that reference point and. And read that whole art. Even if it was super hard, there were some in the translation chapter that were hard to read because I didn't understand what they were talking about. Like, there's these words I haven't heard of before, and I don't know what they mean. And I would read it like three times anyway. And then if there were references in that article, I would follow those and read every single one of them. And then every single one of the. So it was like, it was like a tree, you know, like there's a CES letter. And it led me to this document, which led me to this document, which led me to this document, which, you know, and I was reading every single one of them. It took me a long time because I was going to be thorough. And I also, like, really, truly, truly did not want it to be true. I wanted the church to be true. And finding out these little things, I thought, somebody's got this wrong and I just need to keep reading until I find where they got it wrong. And I'm an intellectual person, I'm smart, I will figure this out. And then went on to the next bullet point and read all those references and all of that. And the interesting thing was that he has little dots beside the articles that he sends you to. And some of them are red, some of them are black, and some of them are green. And the green ones were church, like, put out by the church, like, this is church material. The black ones were like neutral and the red ones were like, could be considered maybe anti Mormon. Most of the dots were green. So these are mostly. Most of the stuff is coming from church sources. But I'm like, dude, I've lived my whole life and I've never heard this. How come I didn't know about this? How come I didn't, you know, how come I never heard this? How come I never read this article? How come? And it was just really in depth stuff. But I was reading every single article, every single reference, and found out that Joseph Smith copied from the King James version of the Bible. But I could excuse that. I'm like, oh, you know, there's gotta be a reason for that. But then to find out that the same mistakes anyway that, you know, you know, you know how it goes. So I'm reading and I'm like, oh my gosh. Like the. It dawns on me at some point. Oh dear. The Book of Mormon might, might not be what he said it was. And then, and then there's the chapter about the Book of Mormon and the historicity of it. And, and, and I'm. When Lehi died, I cried because I felt that loss because he was part of my life, you know, when Nephi died. And I knew it every single time. I knew where that story was and I knew it was coming and I knew he was going to die. And I cried because he was a prophet and he was real. So when the Book of Mormon is no longer what I thought it was, it also means that the people in it aren't real. And it felt like they had all died. It was such a loss for me to realize that Ammon wasn't a real person. It was shocking and it hurt. And I felt loss at the people in the Book of Mormon and then, and then piled on that, the loss of the Book of Mormon. But I'm like, you know what? It's still a really good book. It's beautiful, it's inspired. There's so many good stories. Even if it's not like, actually true, like, it still leads me to Christ. I truly feel that. So. But I'm grappling with this. Like, but hold on. It's not true, but it's still. Well, it's not true, but it's still good. But. And still reading and finding out more and got to the Book of Abraham and I did not believe what he wrote in that book. Like, no, no. And then I went to the, to the sources, the source documents, the primary sources. And I saw the facsimile that Joseph drew in where there were pieces missing and where he. The multiple times in his diaries and other things said that he worked. He was working on the translation of. And he was working on the Egyptian Alphabet so that they could translate like this is translation, the way Webster's dictionary says translation, right? From one language to another, he's translating. That's my understanding of the word translation. One of the, one of the sources was the Gospel Topics essays on the Book of Abraham. I'd never heard of the Gospel Topics essays. Didn't know what they were, where they were, didn't know that they were like on the, they were from the church, on the church's website. So I hit the link, I go to the Gospel Topics essay about the Book of Abraham and the very first sentence is, you know, we hold that this is scripture inspired. You know, it's part of our canon and, and we stand by it. But then the rest of the article has to admit that it's not a translation. No part of it is a translation. No part of it matches the actual papyri.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] The word Abraham doesn't even appear anywhere in the papyri. Right?

Donna Showalter [00:31:17] My, my, yeah, like my brain is exploding. And when I read the sentence in there that no part of it is an actual translation. I honestly felt like I don't know myself. I don't know what's real. I Don't know what's true. I don't. Like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like translation, doesn't it mean this? But maybe, but they're saying it means, it could mean something else. But that means they're changing themselves. Meaning of the word translation. But that's not a Mormon word. That's like an actual, like English term translation. And so they're trying to like twist it around to fit, but it doesn't fit. But I honestly felt like I was going crazy. Like, I felt crazy, like something's it, I missed something somewhere. And I've done lots and lots of research since then about the Book of Abraham. And it dawned on me just a week ago. And it's weird because it's not as bad and not as hard on me anymore. But every time I would find out something new, it would just send me down this, like, deep depression where I would cry for days, not sleep at night. I was a nervous wreck during the day. And it's not so hard now, but like, I'm still finding out things like almost daily that was misrepresented or, or it was a flat out lie. And not only that, Now when I say the church, I don't know what that, who that includes. Is it the 12, is it the 15, is it the historians? I don't know. But the church knew the truth and they either misrepresented it, omitted it, or flat out lied. That's a hard realization, you know, that the true church lied. I've never lied. Okay, of course I've lied, but you know what I mean. When I sit in my, in my temple recommend interview and they ask me if I'm honest in my dealings with my fellow men, and I could answer yes, But the church that's asking me if I'm being honest isn't honest. It's baffling to me. Like, mind blowing, earth shattering. Like. Anyway, so I continue to read and I continue to read and I'm finding out more and more and more and it's getting worse and worse and worse. And at some point I, like, I'm laying in bed crying myself to sleep again and Steve wakes up and he's like, what is going on? And I'm like, it's the same stuff, you know? And I'm reading something online that was supposed to be like, you can still stay in the church, like, even if this isn't true and that's not right or whatever, you can still be a member and go to church every Sunday and be happy and live a good life. And I'm like, but you're. I thought this website was going to tell me that the ces. That I was wrong and that everything they've told me all my life was actually true. And he's going, even though this. This isn't right, and even though there's proof of this, and even though. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, it. Like, I wanted so desperately for the CES letter to be wrong, that. That I'm somehow confused, mixed up, crazy, whatever. But I. I just remember thinking, I don't know what's real. I. Like, I don't know what's real anymore. I felt like I was, like, losing it, like, having a mental breakdown, like, actually going crazy, like, I might need help. I might need to, like, go get help somewhere. And I. And I thought, I just, you know, I just need to get outside. It's like one in the morning and it's pouring down rain, and I'm like, I just need to get outside. I just need to see the stars. Like, all of a sudden, it became imperative, like. Like, this is a matter of life and death. I must see the stars because I know they're real. And I went outside and it's raining and I can't see the stars. And I was like, oh, you know. But then I saw the mountains, and I'm like, okay, the mountains. The mountains are real. I've been in them, I've touched them. I've. You know, the mountains are real, therefore, I am real. Because I was honestly beginning to think if I could. I honestly couldn't tell what was reality and what wasn't. I am. I'm real. I'm. I'm here, I'm breathing. I'm a human. Like, I had to, like. Like, my whole life was, like, fell apart, like, deconstructed everything. Not just my beliefs, but everything. And I just got to a place where I. It dawned on me, like, I came to the realization one day, this church isn't true. The Book of Mormon is not true. And it hurts me to say that. It hurts me to know that. I realized that if the Book of Abraham isn't true, it's not a translation. I don't know what it is. Then that means there's no collaboration. That means, like, the three degrees of glory and. And celestial. Everything is like, is that a thing? That. That I can go to heaven and be with my family and make my own world and all? Like, that's not true. Like, that's not a thing. Like, basically my. My whole belief system has shattered, like, falling apart. It's gone. It's gone. And I don't know how to breathe without this church. I don't know how to breathe without. I don't know how to function. I don't know how to not be Mormon. I don't know how. So I'm going through all this. This is all happening. This is like February, March. I'm coming to the realization that this. That this church isn't true. And it's a hard realization. Meanwhile, I'm working at Encircle. I'm. I'm working on like, suicide prevention and family outreach and things like that, putting together programs for parents and. And support groups for parents and things like that. So I'm at this meeting on April 4th, and I. It was a busy. I had a full day. I had this meeting that I was going to, and then I had a little break, and then I had some presentations at some different high schools and stuff that I was going to be going to. And then. And so busy, busy day. And I had to be up in Salt Lake at 9am So I got up there. But I've been talking to my sister Sarah. Oh, I didn't tell you this part. Okay, I'm so sorry. Let me backtrack. One month, February, I'm reading the CES letter. My world is falling apart. I got to a point where I thought I not only. Okay, so when Michael came out, I prayed to die, right? I got to a point where, like, I don't want to live and I'm willing to do the deed. And I.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] You wanted to die?

Donna Showalter [00:38:42] Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I. And I was like, okay, I'm suicide prevention, and I know the signs and I'm exhibiting the signs. And all of a sudden I had this new understanding of what people who have suicide ideation are actually feeling and going through, because I'm living it. And. And I'm like, okay. Like, I'm trying to think rationally, like, what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to reach out to somebody. Okay. So, like, I texted my sisters. Five. The five of us live here, actually. All six of us now. All of six of us kids. But there's five sisters, and we've always been really close. We are all in a. In a group text. That's just about everything, you know, anything going on in life, questions, whatever. You know, it's our group text. So I reached out to them, and it was hard for me to do. I felt really vulnerable and very weak and scared and didn't want to admit that I needed help, but I knew that I needed help, that I knew that I wasn't going to make it through the day if I didn't reach out. So I reached out to them and I said, you guys, I'm really struggling. I am having thoughts of suicide. I'm like, I need help. My sister Sarah called me immediately, and she said, donna, what's going on? And by this time I'm crying and. And I just. I said, I found out some stuff about the church, and it's super hard, and I don't know what to do, and I'm really struggling. And I. And I, like, tried to explain a little bit. She goes, what are you talking about? And I said, the CES letter. And I'm just like, super shocked. She's like, what's a CES letter? I'm like, it's this letter that this guy sent to his institute teacher asking a bunch of questions about the church. Like, inconsistencies, things he didn't understand. And then his CES letter, his director didn't answer or I don't know what, but so he went through and answered his own questions. And it's all these issues about the church that don't make sense. That, like, everything we thought was true might not be true. And she's like, what? And I was like, oh, Sarah. Anyway, we get off the phone. She. She looks up the CES letter. I still apologize to her for that because I'm like, oh, gosh. Because she's. She was the super faithful one in our family. She was the one who went on a mission. She was the super obedient one. Good grades in high school, blah, blah. Came home from a mission, married a returned missionary. Like, perfect, perfect Mormon life. She hit all the benchmarks. Super faithful. She's the primary president. Her husband is the young men's president. They've got five kids. She looks up the CES letter. She reads it all day long online. And then her husband gets home and she says, you have got to come read this. And he's like, what is it? You know, innocent. And she gives it to him and they both start reading it, and they stay up all night long. Sarah cries herself to sleep around 3am she wakes up at 5 or 6 and Jay's not in the bed. And she looks over and he's between the wall and the bed and he's still reading and. And he's crying and he's like, I don't. It's not true. It's not true. Like, their whole world Shattered in one night. Mine came slowly over time. But in one night, everything in their life was gone. Their support system, their family, everything gone, she said. They walked out of the room the next morning, and they were done. They called their bishop, made an appointment with him, said, release us from our callings. We're not coming back. And that was incredibly hard for them because they truly, truly love. Sarah has said it many, many, many times how much they love their bishop and how. How much love they feel from their bishop. But it. It crushed him. But they. They're like, we can't. I'm not going to live a lie. But. But it. It. It. Sarah. Sarah calls me from time to time, and she's crying. She's like, just tell me it's still true. Like, maybe we're wrong. Maybe. Maybe it's true and we're just being deceived. And I'm like. And so, like, we talk each other

John Dehlin [00:43:09] down, but some people are gonna blame you and say, you shouldn't have spoken out to your sister.

Donna Showalter [00:43:16] I know.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] Other people are gonna blame the CES letter and Jeremy Runnels. Other people are gonna blame me. But then we could blame Richard Bushman or rough stone rolling. Cause that helped trigger you. Like, you know, there's a lot of people read the gospel topics essays, like, you know, who do we blame? Is it you? Is it your fault? Should you have stayed quiet?

Donna Showalter [00:43:43] Some part of me wishes that I had because it's been so devastating for them and their family. And I feel responsible. But she always tells me, no, Don, I'm so glad you told me.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] But it could have been the person that shared CES letter with you, right? Like, I mean.

Donna Showalter [00:43:55] Yeah. Where does the responsibility lie if I'm being truthful? I think we should place the responsibility where it actually lies, and that is with the church and the way they dispense information or the way they withhold information, the way they twist information. I feel like they've painted themselves into a corner where you're not allowed to doubt. You're not. You're not allowed to look. And if you do, you're the weak one. You're the wrong one, you're the sinner, and we are infallible. God won't let us go astray, therefore, everything we say is gospel truth. They've painted themselves into a corner, and I. I don't know the outcome of that. I know what it has been for me, and I'm not trying to pull anybody else out of this church. The last thing on the planet I would want to do is put someone through what I've gone through. This has been absolutely horrific, Steve. I don't know how much to share. There came a day this was. Oh, I have to tell you about. Okay, April 4th this year, conference time. Two days before conference starts, I'm in my Suicide Prevention Coalition work group meeting, and somebody says, they reversed the policy. And I'm like, you know, okay, so I was alive and an adult when the towers fell. And I'm watching them fall, and my head isn't believing what my eyes are seeing. It was that same feeling, like you're saying the words, but I'm not processing this. Like, they said they reversed the policy. And I thought, well, maybe they reversed a part of it. They revised some of. No, they reversed the whole thing. The frame of mind that I'm already in is, if they got this wrong, what else did they get wrong? And then. And then there's a bazillion things that I have found out that were misrepresented or hidden or just flat out lied about, and I'm already in this frame of mind. I was like, I. I don't think the church is true. Like, but there's still this part of me that's trying to hold on and trying to make it true. And. And. And so I. They say the policy's been reversed. And for a split second, I was so happy, I'm like, oh, gosh, thank goodness. And then I'm like, what? Wait, no, no, wait, wait. What does this mean? What does this mean for the youth who've taken their lives because their church told them there's no place for them? What does this mean for my friend who married her wife and took her life? What does it mean for her. Her. Her. Her wife, her family? What does this mean for the mom who, when she found. Who took her own life? Like, what does this mean? They're rescinding as this. Wait, it's a revelation. It's not just a policy.

Policy Harm, Mental Health, and Personal Losses

John Dehlin [00:47:14] Like, someone would say, now, wait a minute. You. You hated this. It hurt people. They. They made it better. They fixed it. That should make you happy. That might even make you want to come back to church, right?

Donna Showalter [00:47:24] Hell, no. Three and a half years later, God changes his mind about gay people. Three and a half years later, after many people have died and left the church and lost their families and been kicked out of their homes and lost their children and. No, no, I was happy for a split second. And then I realized, oh, my gosh. Well, okay, then while I'm sitting in the meeting I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no, no, no. Like, this was revelation. And I remember the talk. It was Elder Nelson at the time In Hawaii, December, January 2016, gave a speech or talk or whatever, and he. He explicitly went through the steps of how this policy, well, was revelation. How it's the mind of God, it's the will of God, how we came together and we watched the Lord work upon the prophet, and it was our privilege and honor to sustain him. And I mean, he. It's revelation. And he told us the story of how it happened. And now they're saying it's a policy that they're reversing by revelation. No, no, I 100% reject that. 100%. It wasn't right to begin with. I tried so hard to make it fit, but it didn't fit because it shouldn't have fit because it was wrong. And then three and a half years later, after so much suffering, you got another revelation that the policy needs to be rescinded. No, no, you can't call it revelation and then call it policy when you change it and call that revelation. And it's not just that. It's not like they said, you know, we need a new hymn book. We're going to put out a new hymn book. Three and a half years later, we need a different hymn book. We're going to take that one back and give you. No. People died. People died. Lives changed. Forever shattered. I've seen the carnage. I've seen it with my own eyes. How dare you call it revelation? How dare you call yourself a prophet? So, so sad for people online who are like, yay. I'm like, are you? Like, you obviously don't understand the implications of this. I'm not going to enlighten you on the theological part of it. But I got out of the meeting and Sarah called me and she was. She was screaming and crying, screaming. I couldn't hear. I couldn't understand the words. She was forming words, but I couldn't understand her words for, like, five whole minutes. And I finally stopped trying. I just, like, I'm just gonna let her, like, say what she needs to say. And she's screaming and screaming and crying and. And then I start crying because I'm already, like, shaking and, And. And it's. It's dawning on me that. That this isn't Revelation and it wasn't Revelation to begin with. And. And they called it revelation so that people would stop talking about it, so that people would say, this is wrong. If it's revelation. It's not wrong because it's from God. So you so we're done talking about this now. By the time I got to so there's a circle in Salt Lake and I kind of go between I'm driving up to Encircle for my next meeting and the realization like settles on me. The pain that that policy caused. The pain that it caused me, my son, my family, my extended family who are orthodox Mormon and are still trying to make it fit somehow. The people who died. This one life that we get and theirs is gone.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill do.

Donna Showalter [00:52:27] But it doesn't matter now it doesn't matter now it's all just poison in disguise Teacups full of candy coated poison in the sky Me.

Part 5 of 5 · Ep. 1154

Donna Showalter [00:00:03] Shapes. Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button or on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Donna Showalter [00:01:05] Like when I say when I realized that the Book of Abraham wasn't real and that. That, like, so many things weren't that I thought were real aren't real, and I, like, broke and shattered that. That was a precursor to this. This was the actual earthquake. This, for me, was the end. I sat in the parking lot of Encircle for probably an hour, and I was screaming. And my car, like, I look back now, I'm, like, my car was shaking because I was, like, kicking the dashboard and screaming and. And, like, honestly, like, trying to get out of my skin. Like, I. I can't. I don't know how to explain it. It's a pain so real and deep and raw that I couldn't be in my body. Like, I need to. Like, I can't. I. I almost passed out. Like, I'm in the car. I'm screaming, I'm crying, and I could feel like, okay, I'm not breathing enough. And, like, my nose is getting tingly and my lips are getting tingly, and I'm like. And I'm. And it's starting to close. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm gonna pass out. And I started to breathe, like, try to breathe, like. And be calm. Try to be calmer. And I was on the phone with my husband, and he's hearing all this. He's hearing me screaming and crying and so much pain. For me, It was my last. That was a thing that I knew for sure. This church isn't true. Like, there was no question. There's no going back. There's no what if. There's no. If I read enough, I'll find out. This thing that I've devoted my life to, And I mean devoted, like, happily, worthily, faithfully given my life. And it's not real. It's not real. And I don't know what to do with that information. It's too much. In that moment, I knew. I just remember screaming, like, at the top of, like, screaming, this church Is bullshit. The whole thing, it's the whole thing, it's bullshit. I like and I don't know what to do with myself. And I don't know how to live, and I don't know how to function. I don't know how to be. And the policy to begin with, hurt my baby boy so much. The hurt that they caused me and my family is unspeakable. Like, I. In that moment when everything fell apart, totally shattered, My first thought was, I'm gonna go to the church office building right now, and I'm gonna walk into their. Into their big, like, whatever their. That open space on the first floor. And I'm going to scream and scream and scream and scream until they make me leave, until they drag me out of there, and I'm going to scream exactly what I think, and I'm going to tell them exactly what this has done to me and what it's already done to so many. So much hurt. How could you do that? And then for President Nelson to stand and say, we went through so many permutations thinking about how it. Like, how we can make this work and how it would not hurt people. And I'm like, no, no, you did not go through enough permutations to make this okay. I drove to my husband's work. And came outside to meet me. We sat down together. And I could see he knew. He knew the hurt that I was feeling. He already knew that I was really, really struggling. I mean, this has been months and months and months and how I had gotten to the point where I cannot go to church, even though it's been my whole life. Like, it's too hard, it hurts too much. It's too painful

John Dehlin [00:06:41] to go.

Donna Showalter [00:06:42] To go. And so I'm already, like, not really going to church all the time, right? And I said to him, well, actually, let me step back. I left my car. When I got off the phone with him, I went inside. I was crying uncontrollably that the table is surrounded with therapists. What a place to be. These beautiful humans just enveloped me and allowed me space to feel what I was feeling and to support me and be incredibly loving during that moment. That was so, so hard. I. I realized that I can no longer be a member of this church. I mean, I remember in the car, I was screaming to my husband, it's fake. It's a club. It's a fake club. Like, I will not be a member of this fake club anymore. So I went inside and I got on QuitMormon.com. i filled in all the information, scanned my license, and hit submit. And that was really surreal for me that I'm no longer a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Almost instantly, I became very aware of my garments. And they've been part of my skin for 30 plus years. You know, they are. They're who. They're part of my identity too, you know, and. And the sacredness and what they mean. And all of a sudden, I became very aware, like, these are. No. And I. And I went to the bathroom, and I'm ripping my clothes off on my way to the bathroom. Like, went in the bathroom, took my garments off, threw them on the floor, which I also have never done. And I'm like, I will never wear garments again. I don't want them. They've been my safety, They've been my devotion. Like, they're a representation of all that I am, and I don't want them anymore. And I went back out. Then I went to my husband's work. We sat outside. He could. He'd heard my pain and seen my pain. And he. He's watched this process with me and. And. And we. We just sat there and, like, I'm sobbing, sobbing. And he hung his head and he's shaking his head. And I was like, what? And he said. He said, we're collateral damage. They don't care. And I think that might have been a fleeting thought for him. He's incredibly faithful. Like, the church can't ask for a better member who's more loyal. But in that moment when he was feeling my pain and seeing it, and he knows, and he loves Michael as much as I do, this has caused so much pain. And I also realized that it doesn't matter how many hours a day I spent doing my calling, how much I loved my primary kids. It doesn't matter how much devotion and faith. It doesn't matter how much tithing I pay. It doesn't. It doesn't matter because I don't matter. The church meant everything to me. Everything. And I thought I had it in my head that I meant the same to them that they meant to me. I'm important to them. I'm vital to this work. I'm. I'm. You know what I mean? Like, I'm. I'm building the kingdom. So there's all these things at once. The church isn't true. They're not prophets. I'm sorry, I'll probably get excommunicated from the fake club for that, but whatever. They're not prophets. The church Isn't true. My life doesn't matter. Nothing I've ever done before matters. And they don't care. They don't care about me. I gave them everything and they don't care. And I had to sit with that. And I sit with that still. So. So that's the policy. Came out on a Thursday.

Resignation, Advocacy, and Finding a New Voice

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Dang, Donna. Like, I don't want to interrupt you. You're on such a roll, but.

Donna Showalter [00:12:01] Sorry, I can only bag on it so much.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] So powerful. Like, I've watched the Internet audience grow and grow and grow and we're up to like 180 people. Like, that's a lot for like a mid afternoon faith crisis story. But you're preaching it. You're throwing it down so powerfully. People can't, I'm sorry, can't let go of the, of the screen. So, I mean, just. This is so powerful.

Donna Showalter [00:12:31] Well, so the rest, for the rest of that day. Oh, and thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Steve also said to me in that moment, like, it, this realization for him, and he said, you're going to need to leave. Huh? And I said, yes, I have to leave. And I. And I actually went to his work so that I could tell him that I had had my name removed because I did it in such a fit of, like, desperation and anger and anxiety and, you know, and it. And as I'm leaving to drive to his work, I'm like, oh, I just did that. I didn't talk to him first. Like, Steve and I are opposites in many, many things. And, and when they say opposites attract and like, good team, all that, that's an understatement. Like, and so when I discuss things with him, it's not because I need his permission or whatever. It's just, you know, a courtesy. Like, hey, just so you know, I spent $80 today or whatever. You know, this is big. And I would never make a huge, such a monumental decision without him. And I started to panic. And that's why I went to his office. Like, I'm not just going to like, tell him on the phone. You know, I went to his office, he came out, we talked, and he said, you're going to need to leave. And I said yes. And he said to me, I understand if you can't go to church. Like, I get that 100%. But if you have your name removed, you lose all the blessings and we won't be sealed.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Now you're hurting him.

Donna Showalter [00:14:22] Yeah. My first thought was, oh, honey, I don't think we ever were. It's not real. It's not real. None of that's real. But this is the so not so. Now I add to the list of things I've lost. My eternal companion, who I lived my life so that I could be worthy to be with my family. Everything I believed. Steve is. Steve is a gentle soul. He's good and kind. He's everything I ever wanted and so much more. And I'm breaking his heart. My heart's broken that my family's broken. My faith is broken. Everything's gone. I know it's not real. I know that us being sealed, I don't know what's going to happen in heaven. I don't know what that's going to look like, but I don't. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe we are. Maybe we'll get to be together. Maybe we'll get to be angels together. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But if he believes that we will be together, I won't jeopardize that. So although it was incredibly hard. And I. Every single day, I wish I wasn't a member. I wish my name and my number was not associated. I cannot. My integrity won't let me be part of that. But it's still everything to my husband, and he's everything to me. So I went back on Mormon QuitMormon.com and in their wisdom, they added a cancel button. Like, you can undo this if you. If you. You know, within a certain amount of time, you can undo this. And I went back in and removed my request. And it was really hard. And I felt really defeated and sad and angry. But I'm willing to do that for my husband. I'm willing to go to church every Sunday if that's what he needs to feel safe and comforted. I'll do whatever it takes. I cannot unknow what I know. I can't unsee what I've seen. But he's my love. I can't be without him. So my name is on the records of the church

John Dehlin [00:18:28] for now.

Donna Showalter [00:18:31] The moment I'm able to. I'm gone. I'm gone. You lost me. You lost me. And I was good. I was a good Mormon. I was good. I was one of the best you got. I was one of the most faithful. You know what I mean? Like, I was a good Mormon and you lost me. And I won't be back. I won't be back. I went to Temple Square. All the general authorities are pouring out of the church office building on their way to whatever meeting was next because general conference was coming. I didn't go in the building and scream, even though I wanted to. But I, but I just stood there and I'm like, this is happening. Like, this just happened, this monumental thing. Like my world just fell apart. And, and you just rescinded a, A policy slash revelation, whatever. And you guys are like walking onto your next meeting as if nothing happened. Like, I, I have a friend many, many years ago, they lost their, Their. Their sweet little boy in a tragic accident. And they, she said they came out of the hospital. It was incredibly tragic and traumatic and horrible. They came out of the hospital after giving his body to the corner. And the traffic is going by, people are passing, and the cars are just like, the world is still going. There's birds singing, the sun is still in the sky. Like, how, how can the world continue on? Like this is some kind of sick joke that the world continues when I'm in so much pain. These people who probably thought it was really good news that the revelation got rescinded, saw me crying. They saw me standing there. I've got no makeup on at this point. I'm a disgusting mess. And they walk on. No one stopped. No one asked me what was wrong. No one acknowledged my presence. And the world kept going. And I recognized precedencies of auxiliaries. Like, I recognized them from past conference talks. And they just walked on. I don't know what I expected. I don't know if I expected them to like, turn around and say, hey, what's going on? Or hey, are you okay? You know, I don't know what I expected. But the fact that they saw me so wounded in front of them, I don't matter. I don't matter to them. My daughter, For my birthday, which was a couple days later, had, had gotten airbnb down in St. George, like, because it's my 50th. I am a woman of a certain age. My daughter got an Airbnb and it was going to be this big family, like, get together, and it was so kind of her. And it was a lot of work and. And then this happened. We were supposed to leave the next day. So April 5th. So it was going to be my daughter, her boyfriend, me and three of my sisters. My other sister couldn't come at this point. Sarah is already out and I talked to her and I'm like, listen, don't say a word. And I know it's going to be really, really hard because we're going to be with our sisters all weekend long. Don't say a word to them about this. Like, it's not fair to put this on them and their families and everything. Like, I don't want. I don't want this devastation to affect them. And Sarah said, I already told Elizabeth. And I was like, crap. And I'm like, what did she say? I had actually told Elizabeth at some point. I was like, listen, Elizabeth, I need you to know that I'm stepping away from the church, at least for a little while. And I didn't go into any detail at all or say why. And she's like, huh? Like, she didn't ask why either, but I think she may have, actually. But I'm like, I'm not about to tell you that. Like, why? So. So she kind of already knows, but she doesn't know about Sarah. And Sarah tells her. She's like, donna, I told her. I'm like, oh, no. Oh, no. And. And so we're going on to St. George. So I'm out. Sarah is out. Her husband is out. All five of their kids are out. Now my sister. My other sister is like, I'm really glad it's not true. Like, she didn't even cry. Like, she didn't fall nothing. She's like, oh, I'm so glad it's not true. Like, she's like, I've hoped my whole life it wasn't true. And I'm like, who are you? So. So she and her family are out. My other sister has kind of been, like, on the edge for a little while. Like, she's like, I don't know if it's true or not, but I can't do it. Like, so cool. So we go down to St. George and we're in the car together, the five of us, for five hours together. And they could have made a movie out of that. Like, the car shaking. Like, when we get together, like, we all talk over each other anyway, but we're all like, and this and this and just going on and on. And there's crying and there's screaming and there's laughing for five straight hours. And it was so cathartic. Like, just. We just. Like, it's all out there on the table, and we're. And we're speaking openly and freely about this. And. And. And then we spend all weekend not watching. Conference. Okay, can you appreciate with me for a moment, this is the first conference in my life that I haven't either been at, like, in or. Or watched on TV or watched in the Stake center growing up. Or, like, this is the first conference I Haven't watched every single talk in every single session. Now granted, there were times when I fell asleep watching conference.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] You're only human.

Donna Showalter [00:26:13] I know, but I felt so guilty. And I'm like, okay, my goal, this conference is not to fall asleep during even one of the sessions. And I watched every single minute of every single session. Anyway, so St. George, no conference, which I'm kind of glad about. I'm very glad about. But whatever. Anyway, all weekend long, just blah. The church, you know, and. And my, My daughter, she's like, I feel vindicated, you know? Cause like we pushed her, we. We forced her to go to church. Like we shoved it down our kids throat. Like, truly, truly, truly, like you like this. We will make you, you know, and. And she's like, I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. I never thought you'd leave the church. And I'm like, neither did I. Neither did I. Even when everything was happening with Michael and I was going through my faith crisis, I said it many, many times. I will never leave the church. I will never leave the church. And I've left the church. And she's like, I'm so glad, Mom. I was like, really? And in that moment, something passed between us. Instant forgiveness on her part. Instant understanding.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] This is your daughter.

Donna Showalter [00:27:39] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] Who had left the church before.

Donna Showalter [00:27:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:41] And maybe you had. Maybe she had felt judged or maybe she felt totally like mistreated or dismissed or something.

Donna Showalter [00:27:49] Not good enough. Like, we love you, but we don't approve of you at all. Like, everything in that moment for me washed away. Like, washed away. And I see before me this grand human being who is so strong and independent and wise and beautiful and caring and loving and everything that anybody could ever want in a daughter. And I'm seeing it for the first time in my life because nothing. Because there was no expectation. There's no conditions on my love anymore. There's nothing. And whatever you're doing in your life that's making you happy, I applaud you and I stand by you and behind you. And I will support you every which way I can. And it's been that way with each of my children. Now, like my relationship with my children, I didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't know that my relationship with them could be stronger and better and more loving. And there's this whole world out there that I didn't know about. And I feel such a closeness and companionship and connection with my children that I never felt before. So. Her poor boyfriend though. Oh, My gosh. He's never been Mormon, but he's, like, watching this deconstruction, and he's like, whoa, whoa. And we just kept saying, I'm so sorry. Like, this isn't us. This isn't the normal us. Like, we're usually, like, put together, like, you know, but we're like, there's. There's screaming and there's yelling and there's, you know, and. And all weekend long, and we didn't.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] Swearing. Maybe not.

Donna Showalter [00:29:38] We don't. We don't really swear. I mean, you know, you can take the girl out of Mormon, but you can't take the Mormon out of the girl. So there might have been a little bit, but not much.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Okay.

Donna Showalter [00:29:49] Anyway, just me saying to Steve in the car, this is bullshit. Was really hard to form the words, but I couldn't think of any better explanation. Anyway, just. Yeah, but, like, so much animation. But then also, like, this new connection with my sisters that I. Like, we feel so much stronger and better, and I am grateful every moment of every day. Okay. Although I would never wish this on anyone, and if I could take it back and not have told my sister about the CES letter, I would. I would. Been incredibly hard on their family, on their kids, on them. It's been incredibly hard on Sarah, But I feel so much closer to them. And I couldn't pick better people to go through this with. The fact that we're on this horrific journey together. It's definitely a silver lining, you know? Like, I know I can call her. There's not gonna be any judgment. I know I can, like, fall apart on the phone, and she's not gonna think any less of me. Like, it's brought us so much closer together. Which sounds so strange, like, to not be a faithful Mormon, but to still be close to my family. Like, I could have been ostracized. I could have been the one that left the church. And no one knows how to talk to me anymore or deal with me or be around me. And it's awkward and. And to have been spared that at least. I'm really glad. I'm really glad we come back home. I can't remember. I just go in waves, you know? Like, there's this. The grieving process, where there's anger and there's sadness and there's depress, acceptance and denial and just all these things. Then it's all mixed up together, and I'm going through them all the time, and I can't remember what. What caused this. But within the last, like, month. Month And a half. It's been like a month and a half ago. I found out something else that wasn't true. And. And it sent me over the edge. And I. I'm like, I can't. I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. And so I. I started thinking about suicide again and really feeling like I. I don't want to be here anymore. And if there's a heaven, great. And if there's a hell, great. And if there's not, and I stop existing, great. Whatever. I can't. I can't. I can't. I came up with a plan. I had a plan and I had a day. And it was so strange to go from feeling so much anxiety and fear and stress to, I have a plan and I have a day. And all of a sudden I felt okay. Like, it. Like I'm okay. Like, I felt at peace and. And. And all of a sudden, nothing. All this doesn't matter because I'm going to be gone and. And. And it will all go away. And I. And it. I felt so much relief. I felt like I could take a full breath. And I was. And I was little scared, but not so scared that I wasn't going to do it. Then I started thinking, I need to, like, I can't just go. I have to leave a. I have to say my piece. You know, I need to leave letters. I have to leave a letter for Steve. And there has to be one that's like the public one. And. And I have to leave one for each of my kids. It can't be, like, all just in there together. Like they're. They're all so important to me. They each need their own so that I can tell them each individually, you know? And then that extended to my sisters, and that extended to some really close friends. And then it extended to my kids at Encircle, who I adore. And I know they love me. And if I'm trying to keep them alive and then I go and die, what does that tell them? That there is no hope after all. She lied. There is no future. And she's like, older and got it together and like. And she can't handle this. Okay. And then I started to really, really worry about them. I'm like, no, no, no, no. I have to explain to them how it's okay if I die. It's not okay if you die, but it really is okay if I die. Like, it's okay. And so then I started thinking about all the people that I needed to write Letters to. And there was a lady I'd never met, but we know each other online. And I'm like, oh, gosh, I'm gonna have to write her a letter. I gotta write all these people letters so that. So that nobody feels like it's their fault. They're not responsible, that I'm at peace. They should be at peace. Just move on with your life. Everything's fin to realizing I don't have the energy to even write one, so I better wait. And I started creating the letters in my head, like, what I would say. And just in creating them and saying these things in my head to different people, I realized. Maybe. Maybe I should stay. Maybe it does get better. I mean, realistically, logically, I know it's going to get better. In the moment when everything is so heavy and nothing makes sense. I get that. I get that. But I also. I also see that things change, you

John Dehlin [00:36:27] know,

Donna Showalter [00:36:31] and I need to stay sometimes that's really hard, but I'm gonna stay. And I got into therapy, which was a big step for me, and it's helped tremendously. Like, when I was at my very, very lowest, when I was like, okay, I. I called the therapist a couple days before I was supposed to do my plan, and she made me promise her that I wouldn't take my life until I'd seen her at least once. And I made her that promise, and that meant something to me. And I stayed until I saw her. But by the time I went to see her the first time, I felt better. Like, not good, but I felt a little more stable. And things have gotten better since then. This is not a cakewalk, but things have gotten better, you know, And I'm here for the long haul. And I also realize I spent 50 years of my life doing this thing that was fake. I'm not spending one more minute doing anything fake. Like, my life, what's left of it, is going to be very real. And I'm going to live my life very real and in color. That doesn't mean I've gone off the deep end, and that doesn't mean that I've done anything crazy or I'm going to do anything crazy. And yes, I've said a few cuss words, but that's about the extent of my going off the deep end. Like, I'm still Donna, still me. I saw the same values, the same morals. I still want. Like, I. I'm a good person. I want good. I want to do good. It just won't be in that context, you know, I'm gonna throw all I've got into the life I have left with the people that I love with this. With this. With my sweet family and with the family that has chosen me, if that makes sense. Like, you know, we talk about LGBT people who. Who. Who choose their family. My community has. I know a lot of people when they leave the church, they're completely alone. They. They're. You know, they feel like they're super isolated. The neighbor's kids don't want to play anymore. They don't know what to say to you. Like, they, like, they just feel completely isolated. And. And I. And I haven't felt that because my encircle family has. Has made my landing so soft and gentle. It's been. I mean, obviously hard, but I know that I have a support system and. And people who love me, and I love them, and I'm. And I'm happy. I'm happy to be part of that. And that's where I'll put my energy, and that's where I'll put my money, and that's where I'll. That's. That's my passion. So my 10% is now paying for my therapy. The trauma caused by the church is being paid for by the church, sort of. Anyway, so there we are. Sorry. I talked too much.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Talk too much.

Donna Showalter [00:39:54] This is a thing. I talk too much.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Not at all like Donna. That's just. I mean, I'm texting Stephanie and saying, oh, my gosh, Stephanie, are you listening to this? And there's some power and some insight here that I don't think has ever been expressed in 1100 plus episodes of Mormon stories. Like, I'm kind of. I'm kind of blown away by your power and your wisdom and your strength and your courage and your vulnerability in your story.

Donna Showalter [00:40:31] Okay, Talking about story.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] And there's more.

Donna Showalter [00:40:34] Just. Just a P.S. when Michael came out, and I had to find my voice because one of my students was saying something incredibly unkind and hurtful in the presence of an LGBT student that they didn't know about. I had to speak. I had to say, Let me stop you right there. And this is the first time, I think, in my life that I've stood up and said, no, this can't continue. I said, the things that you're saying are so incredibly hurtful, and you don't know your audience. You don't know the hurt that you might be causing someone. Let's talk about something else. And he was super respectful, and we went on and talked about other things, but. And then I Checked with my one student. I'm like, how are you doing? He's like, it's fine, whatever. I found my voice. The voice. I found my power. The power to stand and say, this is not okay with me, or I think something different. And I've been, I've lived my whole life, like, just going along, like, yep, okay, I'll do whatever you say. Yep. And sometimes to my terrible, terrible detriment. But that's just the way I was raised. Anyway, I found my voice. I found my voice in LGBT things and standing by my son, but I also found my voice in everything. And. In one of your podcasts, I don't know who said it, but they said, don't. Don't feel like you have to tell your story until your well being is not dependent on somebody else knowing, you know? And once you say the words to someone, the narrative is no longer in your control. Like, now it can be taken and done, whatever, with. So I've held all this really close because I don't want to hurt other people, because I. I do fear judgment a little bit, even from the sweet, sweet, well intentioned, good people in my warden neighborhood. And I know that judgment because I've been on the other side of it. I've been the one who judged without even realizing it. I think, you know, oh, you don't go to church anymore, you know, like, what did you do? Or she's not wearing her garments anymore, huh? You know, like, and now I'm on the other side of that. I'm like, if you could know. And I only have these little words that I'm saying to you. But there's. But that's the tip of the iceberg of the story and my feelings and my experiences in all this. I can't convey all of that, but if you could get into my head or into my heart and feel what I have felt, I don't know a person alive who would honestly harshly judge me, but it's been a fear, maybe irrational. Anyway, I got to a point where I'm like, I just have to. This is my truth and I have to live it, you know, and. And things will fall as they may. So I had a dear, sweet friend in my ward who just loves me. She's just so loving. She loves everybody so unconditionally. Her heart is just incredible. She's like a beautiful soul. There have been a number of people in my ward who have reached out to me. And I'll be real honest, there have been knocks at the door that I didn't answer because I was too afraid. I. Like, I can't tell them the truth. I would never send them down this rabbit hole. But I also don't want the judgment. I don't want to have to explain. It's better to just say, you know, I'm really struggling right now. I'm okay, but I just need some time. And that's all I've been able to say. But I can't, like, I can't say that forever. And I've been pretty vague with people who mean a lot to me, and I. And I respect them and love them enough that I don't feel like I. It's not. It doesn't honor them if I don't honor my own story. So kind of. Well, I knew I was coming here to talk to you, and I knew this, like, huge, huge step in me telling my story. But this sweet, sweet friend came over last night and she was. I had gone to encircle for something, and I came home and she was sitting on the couch when I walked in the door. And I was like, oh, like, I know why she's here. And I was like, okay. And so I have another friend who has left over kind of the same issues and other things. And we've talked back and forth, and when things like this have happened with her, she's just been kind of vague and uplifting and saying, you know, it's fine, we're fine. No, everything's good. Like, so many miracles. We're so happy because she's, like, not ready to tell people. And, and, And I honor that. That's totally fine. But I got. But like, last night, I'm like, I'm going to tell her. Like, I'm not going to beat around the bush anymore. I'm just going to tell her. And I spent two hours last night crying so hard in telling her my experiences basically from beginning to end and where I'm at now. And. She doesn't judge. She just. Tears rolling down both our cheeks. And she just expresses so much love. Like, she's like, I'm not where you're at, and that's okay. Where you're at is where you're at, and that's okay. I'm gonna keep praying for you. I love you. I don't think I'm better than you. Like, this doesn't change our friendship. She's just so kind. Another lady in my ward brought me waffles last night. Her waffles are, like, legendary. I wasn't home when she came by, but she left a note. And in this note, it's all the things, read your scriptures, go to the temple, like, continue to be faithful. And that's her language of love. And I accept it in the spirit that it was given just from a place of love and maybe a little bit of fear and uncertainty, but. And I love her for that. I love her for reaching out. I love the people in my ward who've been so, so kind. And I know that there are people in my ward that have a certain view of me or who I am or what I believe, or I've been the person that some people look up to for whatever reason. And I feel like I've. I don't feel like I've let them down. This is who I am, and this is my experience, and this is my story, and this is my pain. And if I could have made it be any other way, I would have. And me being, not being at church is not because I don't love them. It's not because I don't want to be with them. It's because I don't know how to be there anymore. I can't. And there have been times where I'm like, almost every Sunday, actually, I'm like, hey, I, I work myself up to it. Like Thursday, I used to start thinking about it and get super anxious and, and by the time Sunday came, I was a disaster. And I cry all day and then recover on Monday. And then Thursday we go at it again. But, you know, then I kind of stopped going and, but every Sunday I still wake up and I'm like, I'm gonna go to church today. And then I can't. I never understood that when people said I tried to go, but I couldn't. I'm like, you don't try to go to church. You get up, you put your clothes on, you get, you go to church. I did not. I'm such a. I, I, I suppose very shallow in my thinking that, that anyone else's experience could be different than mine, but. But I can't. I can't. So my therapist, in talking about that, my. This house of faith built on a fault line. And, and when it, and when it. There's that earthquake and my house crumbled. And then the neighbors come over and they say, are you going to move? Do you have insurance? Like, are you going to save your stuff? What's going on? Like, that's not, that's not first priority. First priority is get everybody to safety. My house of faith crumbled. I have to get Myself and my family to safety. Once. Once I feel safe, maybe I'll go back and I look at the. At that pile of rubble and find my great grandma's wedding ring and pull it out. And maybe I find my favorite pots and pans and I pull them out and I take them with me. But right now, it's not safe for me. It's too painful, And I can't go there. At some point, I may go back for my husband, you know, to sit there. I'll be the warm body that sits next to him. But it will be for him. But for me now, right now. No way. So there we are.

Reflections, Family Today, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [00:51:16] Oh, my goodness. Well, there's so much more I want to talk to you about. I want to talk to you about. No, no, no. I mean, I think I told Cody, like, oh, we'll be done, you know, by one or two at the worst, you know, And I don't even know what time it is, so. It's after five.

Donna Showalter [00:51:35] No, it's not.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] Cody hasn't eaten lunch. You haven't eaten lunch. I haven't had lunch. Cody, we've been here since 9:30. No, it's okay. Like, we've been texting each other. Like, we can't stop this.

Donna Showalter [00:51:47] My stomach's growling.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] This is too powerful.

Donna Showalter [00:51:50] Oh, I'm so sorry, guys.

John Dehlin [00:51:51] We got like, 175 listeners still hanging on, like, six hours later. Wow. So what I'd like to do is just talk to you offline, maybe about bringing you back on to. Oh, sure, have some final things. But I think for the humanity of all the good and for Cody and for your grumbling stomach and mine.

Donna Showalter [00:52:10] Well, I need to buy you guys dinner.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] Sounds like I want to thank you, Donna. So, like, this is so powerful and it's. I knew it was going to be great, but it was just. It eclipsed even my grandest expectations. Christine Jepsen Clark just joined us, at least briefly. And. And her interview, by the way, like, of all the interviews I've done since, like, 2014 or whatever, hers is the most downloaded and listened to. And really, you know, more than any pick. Michael Quinn or, you know, whoever you want to pick.

Donna Showalter [00:52:46] Like, Michael Kuhn was one of my first.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Yeah, yeah. But Christine's is one of the most popular, probably the most popular and downloaded ever. And just these women's stories are just so powerful, and yours was just incredibly powerful. And so I just want to thank you for everything so far and Michael as well. And, like, we've got a lot more to talk about. But I think this is a really natural place for us to sort of take a breather, have some dinner and then regroup. But what a powerful story of determination, of vulnerability, of sadness, of tragedy, but of resilience and strength.

Donna Showalter [00:53:29] And it does get better. It really does. I went to your Thrive conference not too long ago and it was incredibly hard and I went home, like, mentally exhausted. But it was so beneficial. I learned so much that just gave me hope to just keep going and that things get better. And they really do. And there are some really sucky things about this transition. There really are. But there have also been some glorious realizations and experiences that I wouldn't trade for anything.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] So. Well, we have a lot more to learn from you and a lot more to ask, so. Well, thank you for today. Sure. And thank all our listeners and just know we're going to have Donna back as soon as she can to talk more about her mixed faith marriage and where you go from here and any other insights she has. But we want to thank everyone for joining us today on the Facebook livestream. So many great comments. You're going to want to go back and I'm excited to scour through those.

Donna Showalter [00:54:32] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:54:34] just so many comments. I can't even, couldn't even read them all if I wanted to. But so many gracious listeners, so much generosity and people are so inspired. So thank you for joining us. Thanks for all the people who make Mormon Stories, the Noble Stories foundation possible. Everyone who donates, you keep this thing alive. For those of you who love this and who are in a position to support, we couldn't do this without the support of our donors. So please, please do go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button if you value this programming and want to see continue. We're tax deductible, we're transparent in our finances and all we do is think about how to support people in transition and bring you this type of content. Oh, go ahead.

Donna Showalter [00:55:18] Can I just say one thing really quick that please. I went from thinking that you were a hiss and a byword to you are my. You've been my salvation. I've listened like almost every waking moment. I've been listening to John Dylan podcasts and they have been been so helpful. They've made this transition bearable. So thank you, donate.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Thank you, thank you. Well, thank you for that. And it couldn't happen without the interviewees who are willing to tell their story like you and Michael. It couldn't happen without Cody. It couldn't happen without our board of directors. It couldn't happen without our donors and our supporters and Margi and everyone who makes this possible. So please, like us on Facebook, give us a positive review on Facebook. Give us a positive review on itunes. Again, please donate. Please spread the word. Please share. If all you can do is just share this episode, say, hey, there's this amazing interview. I just watched it and I just wanted to share it because it'll change your life or it's really profound. Just sharing this content can really make a huge difference. So thanks to everyone who can help us do what we do in all the different ways. Please support Encircle. Go to Encircle Together.

Donna Showalter [00:56:31] Donate.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] Donate to encircle together.

Donna Showalter [00:56:34] Encircletogether.org yes. And come to our houses. Come to Provo. Come to Salt Lake. There is. There has. It's a miraculous home. It is. It is a. An absolutely beautiful place to be.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] Yeah. So support them. And there's one coming in St. George, as I understand it, and probably others on the way. I'm sure before we know it, Stephanie Larsen will be President of the United States and we'll all be working for her in one way or another. But I'd be okay with that.

Donna Showalter [00:57:04] She's a good boss.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] And you'd be the vice president and Jacob would be no, and I'd be okay with all that. Anyway, thanks, Donna. Thanks, listeners. You guys stay in touch. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you need anything. Check out mormonfaithcrisis.com if you are in a faith crisis and you to need need more support. We've got over 40 hours of amazing content with Natasha and Margi and me to support you if you're in a faith crisis. We will be having more workshops and retreats coming up, so stay tuned.

Donna Showalter [00:57:35] I'm glad.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] And we'll see you guys again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. And it's time for me, Donna and Cody to go have dinner. Yes, and you too, go have some dinner. Take care, everybody. We'll see you soon.

Donna Showalter [00:57:52] Shapes. Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole. An album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com.

Donna Showalter [00:58:41] Now. It's all just poison in disguise.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.